WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto

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the show former paramedic, journalist, and author

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Kevin Hazard. Now, if you didn't hear my first

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conversation with Kevin, it was episode 742,

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and we took a deep dive into his first two books,

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A Thousand Naked Strangers, and then American

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Sirens about the founding paramedics in Pittsburgh.

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In this second conversation, we discuss a host

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of topics, from revisiting the men from the Freedom

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House, the success of television dramas like

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The Pit, reflecting on the pandemic, his new

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book, No One's Coming, on the Ebola crisis, and

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so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible

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conversation, as I say every week, please just

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take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen

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to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback

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and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making

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it easier for others to find. And this is a free

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library of over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I

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ask in return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said... I welcome

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back onto the show Kevin Hazard. Enjoy. Well,

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Kevin, I want to start by saying thank you and

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welcome back. It's been, you know, I think a

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couple of years since we sat down, if I'm not

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mistaken. The last conversation was phenomenal.

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I will put whatever episode number that was in

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the intro. I forgot to look it up a second ago,

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but I want to welcome you back onto the Behind

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the Shield podcast today. Yeah, man. Thanks.

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Good to be back. Good to see you. So firstly,

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before we dive into all things topical, how have

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the last couple of years or so been on your end?

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Crazy. To be honest with you, you know, when

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I wrote this story, I had no idea how the EMS

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community was going to respond. You yourself

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were just, you know, talking about, hey, like,

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my EMS journey began in Florida. And what I always

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heard was Florida and Los Angeles. And people

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are, you know, people are kind of, you know,

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EMS is really particular about itself. And there's

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a lot of pride, understandably. in the history.

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And I wasn't sure how open people would be to

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the idea, but it's really been incredible. The

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medical community as a whole has been great,

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but the EMS community in particular has really

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embraced it. And, you know, I've been along with

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several of the other guys, I've been, you know,

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traveling around and I've, you know, done. events

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all over the country and and people are really

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excited to hear the story they're excited to

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you know to sit down with those guys so it's

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been it's been kind of a whirlwind and then in

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the midst of it like this new book came up and

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so it's been it's been busy it's been busy well

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you're referring to the men of the freedom house

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the original you know paramedics really um in

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our history a lot of us don't even know about

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One of the best things that I've seen come on

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TV recently is The Pit, and they did a great

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job, obviously, with it being in Pittsburgh,

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of highlighting some of the historical elements,

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including the Freedom House men themselves. And

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I think one of the patients that got that right

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is one of the original Freedom House men in this

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particular story. So for people that haven't

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heard... the first episode that we did together

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just going to give me an overview of you know

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what that program was and um you know maybe the

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kind of the the metamorphosis of that realization

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now and the history lesson a lot of us in ems

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are getting yeah so if you go back um to uh to

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when the white paper comes out we're kind of

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all familiar with that part of ems lore 1966

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the idea that you know people are dying unnecessarily

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and the reason is either No one is there to handle

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their emergency or the people who arrive are

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poorly trained. Most cities in America at that

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time, what you had were either the police, volunteer

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firefighters, or undertakers in the local funeral

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home. None of them had any training. It was basically

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just sort of, you know, grab and go. And people

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were dying because of it. you know, the white

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paper goes out and a doctor by the name of Peter

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Saffer, who was in Pittsburgh, developed the

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paramedic curriculum and he could not get anybody

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to join him in this endeavor. I mean, if you

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think about it, you know, his sales pitch was,

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hey, you know, walk away from your life for a

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year, take an incredibly difficult course that's

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based off of medical school that you might or

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might not pass. And when you finish it, you'd

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be qualified to do a job that technically doesn't

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exist. Not a lot of people say yes to that. So

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he had a difficult time. And eventually where

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that search for the first paramedics landed was

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in a neighborhood in Pittsburgh called the Hill

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District. It was a, you know, it was an all black

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neighborhood. It was on particularly hard times.

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And people from that neighborhood who, you know,

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were referred to in the local press as unemployables.

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The city at that time had redlining covenants,

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so they couldn't even move out of that neighborhood

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if they wanted. It was illegal to sell your home

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if you lived in other neighborhoods to black

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people. So they were stuck in this place that

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had no services, no jobs, no opportunity, no

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anything. And along comes EMS. Along comes the

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opportunity to become a paramedic, which, of

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course, they'd never heard of. But they knew

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what they had at that moment, which was the police

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service, did not serve them very well. And so

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they stepped into the breach that all of us.

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as a nation, were basically begging for someone

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to do. And, you know, they performed incredibly

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well, and they did it for a decade. And at the

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end of that decade, the city quite unceremoniously

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shut them down. But, you know, out of that, you

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know, dozen or 10 or so years that they were

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operating, so many firsts happened. I mean, you

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know, just the creation of the paramedic, the

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creation of paramedic curriculum, the establishment

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of a medical director. One of whom for them was

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Nancy Caroline, who wrote Emergency Care in the

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Streets, sort of the seminal textbook for so

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many people in this field. She wrote that book

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based on her experiences there with their assistants.

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The use of Narcan to reverse overdoses, they

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were the first ones to do that. The design of

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the ambulance, what they carried, how they were

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trained, how they were deployed. aspects of radio

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communications it was all sort of field tested

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in this service and other doctors were coming

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in from around the country other directors are

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coming in from around the country they were seeing

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what they were doing they were sort of borrowing

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bits and pieces of it expanding on it growing

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it doing the thing that that you know that that

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evolution does something pops up in the world

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and then you know everybody sort of comes in

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and um and grows it and and so but but that's

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the seed that's that's where this all began you

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know even though by the time johnny and roy come

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along and you know emergency is this television

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show that inspired a generation of kids to become

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paramedics by the time the show came along these

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guys had been operating for years so they're

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really you know the inciting incident for paramedics

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as we know it for ems as we know it and for Nearly

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50 years, their history had been sort of swept

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under the rug and they were, you know, banging

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a drum for anyone who would listen and say, hey,

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we've got this incredible story to tell someone,

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please listen. And, you know, I just happened

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to be one of the people who got in and listened.

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Now, I mentioned the pit. We're starting to see

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this story really gain some traction again. But

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when you reflect back now, having written the

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history of this. What were the elements behind

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the, to use a modern term, whitewashing of our

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history? I think, so it starts with the city

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deciding, the city resisted them. You know, they

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begin operating in the immediate aftermath of

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the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. So

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April of 1968. For the next four, four and a

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half, five years, the city essentially resists

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the idea that paramedicine is viable. They try

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to suggest that it's not even, you know, practical

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to perform medicine in a moving vehicle. They

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try to say it's not cost effective. They try

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to say it's not necessary. And they do everything

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they can to hold it down. Meanwhile, all over

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the country, including Los Angeles, where it

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inspires a television show, again, that inspires

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a generation of kids and that people to this

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day line up in hundreds to get things signed

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by Johnny and Roy. While that's happening, while

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the paramedic is being turned into a hero on

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national television with a beloved show and beloved

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characters in the city where it's born, the government

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is trying to shut it down. And if you look at

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the service that is growing and expanding everywhere

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else, except for one place, and the only thing

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that differentiates Pittsburgh from every other

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city where EMS was growing is that in Pittsburgh,

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all the medics were black. And you can say that's

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a coincidence. I would say that's one of the

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world's most remarkable coincidence, if it is

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one. So they resist it. And then finally, they

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reach a point where they can no longer resist

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it. The entire country has it. You can no longer

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say this isn't viable. In fact, people in Pittsburgh

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are watching this show on their televisions.

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So the city says, OK, fine, we'll create an EMS

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service. And they do. But they're not going to

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take any of the people from Freedom House and

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they start all over again, even though these

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guys were the originals and everybody else had

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been borrowing from them. And the person who

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created their program is Peter Saffer, nominated

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three times for the Nobel Prize in Medicine,

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the father of CPR. A bonafide medical genius,

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20th century intellectual titan. They're not

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used. And brand new doctors and brand new people

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start over again from ground zero. And it fails.

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And so the city, scrambling, turns to Nancy Caroline,

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who was Freedom House medical director, as the

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program is shutting down there in the last couple

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of weeks before it's going to be killed. And

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they said, please come and be our medical director.

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this is going under and nancy says okay fine

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i'll join you but you've got to do these things

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and most of what she asked for was hire my people

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allow them to practice at the current level keep

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them in the shifts in the locations where they

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currently work and the final her final ask was

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recognized publicly the service of freedom house

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provided the city of pittsburgh from 1968 to

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1975. I've seen the letter she sent to the mayor,

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and I've seen the letter that the mayor wrote

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in response. He said yes to all of her demands

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except for the only one that was free, the one

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for him to publicly acknowledge the service that

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Freedom House had provided for the city of Pittsburgh.

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The second it was over with and Freedom House

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was closed in October of 1975, the city acted

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as if it never existed. And in every neighborhood

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except for the Hill, people... sort of behaved

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like it never existed and you know when i first

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went to research this story back in 2018 2019

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i was sitting in a cab and the cab driver was

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like what are you doing here and i told him what

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i was researching and he'd never heard of it

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black guy from the city of pittsburgh had never

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heard this incredible piece of american history

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that you know he as a pittsburger As a black

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man, this is a piece of history that was sort

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of really a part of his history, much like it's

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a part of my history, part of your history. Anyone

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who's had their life changed by EMS, this is

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a part of your history. If you're an American,

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this is a part of your history. But he'd never

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heard it. So the city had done really a great

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job of sort of just wiping this away. I'm so

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glad that... You know, it's being unpacked. And

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credit to you. Obviously, the men were the ones

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that told the story. But, I mean, you were certainly

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the conduit in this case for getting it back

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to where it needed to be. And then we have The

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Pit and some of these other shows now that are

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televised in this. When it comes to The Pit,

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they have local doctors that are consulting.

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And which is why it's so realistic, which is

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why you don't have people dropping organs on

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the floor and then picking them up and then transplanting

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them to a patient as you do on other shows. It's

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an incredibly realistic show. And that's not

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done by accident. And it has a very specific

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local center. And that's Pittsburgh. And that's

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also not by accident. And among those doctors

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were several that were familiar with Freedom

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House, that knew the Freedom House medics. And

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they said, hey, there's this great story that

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you guys should incorporate. And Noah Wiley immediately

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latched onto it. And he said, yeah, let's do

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this. We've got to do it. And of course, the

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writers and producers, they were all on board

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as well. But they had a number of the Freedom

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House medics out. They afterwards sent me pictures

00:14:31.610 --> 00:14:33.509
and they were standing there with Noah Wiley,

00:14:33.730 --> 00:14:36.649
you know, which is, you know, I mean, look, the

00:14:36.649 --> 00:14:39.169
guy was in ER. He, you know, he's sort of an

00:14:39.169 --> 00:14:41.350
American icon. Who wouldn't want to meet him

00:14:41.350 --> 00:14:44.610
and shake his hand? And they gave him a copy

00:14:44.610 --> 00:14:46.769
of the book, which I thought was really fantastic.

00:14:47.389 --> 00:14:51.370
But really, you know, take me out of it, take

00:14:51.370 --> 00:14:54.629
the book out of it. This was an opportunity for

00:14:54.629 --> 00:14:59.049
people who had served all of us with distinction.

00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:02.740
um to get some recognition and i was i could

00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:06.080
not have been happier to see them standing there

00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:10.379
with noah wiley you know um to know that that

00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:12.179
they were there while that episode was filmed

00:15:12.179 --> 00:15:14.600
and and then to see it on tv where all these

00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:16.460
people watched and go wait a minute what is freedom

00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:18.100
house and people start googling freedom house

00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:23.320
and um you know one of the uh one of the widows

00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.539
said to me um my husband died without his kid

00:15:26.539 --> 00:15:29.720
knowing what he did And I'd like to change that.

00:15:30.220 --> 00:15:33.440
And that has stuck with me, that this man's children

00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.799
were not aware of the full extent of what he'd

00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:40.700
been up to in the 1960s and 1970s. It's an important

00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:44.259
story and far too long went without people really

00:15:44.259 --> 00:15:47.879
knowing it. What are you seeing now? I mean,

00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:50.019
you mentioned a couple of examples, but what

00:15:50.019 --> 00:15:53.580
are you seeing as far as the growth of understanding

00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:57.299
within our profession itself? I mean, look, these

00:15:57.299 --> 00:15:59.080
guys are being asked to go all over the country.

00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:03.700
They are attending EMS conferences, medical conferences.

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:06.960
They're going to grand rounds at different hospital

00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.019
systems. Sometimes I'm there, sometimes I'm not.

00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:13.539
You know, I mean, quite frankly, you know, when

00:16:13.539 --> 00:16:17.580
somebody in the medical community has a conference

00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:21.419
and I get invited and John Moon or Mitch Brown

00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:24.539
or somebody standing next to me like. I am old

00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:27.840
news and I'm very happy to be old news. You know,

00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:30.279
those guys are the goods and people are excited

00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.519
to see them. So to me, that's the big thing is

00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.279
the way that the industry is embracing what they

00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:40.000
consider to be, you know, the forebears of our

00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:43.879
profession. And it's, you know, it's really,

00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:46.820
it's gratifying. It's really gratifying. Yeah,

00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:49.299
it's so good to see. I mean, there's a guy always

00:16:49.299 --> 00:16:51.720
using the example, Professor Russell Foster,

00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:55.200
totally getting away from that subject. But he

00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:59.620
is the man who discovered the chronoreceptor

00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:01.679
in the eye, meaning you had rods and you had

00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.440
cones that we were taught about when we were

00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.460
young in biology. But the receptor that can tell

00:17:07.460 --> 00:17:10.900
the circadian rhythm. So when you hear now influencers

00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:13.720
air quotes talking about when you first wake

00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.619
up, go outside, look at the sun. This is his

00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:18.980
research that they're quoting, but they never

00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:22.259
give any credit to him whatsoever. And he fought

00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:24.980
tooth and nail. The ophthalmology profession

00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:27.380
laughed at him over and over and over again.

00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:29.559
There's no other receptor. What are you talking

00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.519
about? Until he proved it in rats. And I think

00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.700
this is an important thing. When someone was

00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:38.680
literally the pioneer of whatever it was, and

00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:40.640
now other people are riding the coattails without

00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.660
giving them any credit or recognition, that needs

00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:47.359
to be changed. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean,

00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.900
you know, I think if you, I think if you sat

00:17:51.900 --> 00:17:53.940
down and asked these guys, you know, what is

00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:57.559
it you want? Which, you know, is a question I

00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.799
have asked. And, you know, the reaction is simply

00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.799
understanding, acknowledgement, you know, that

00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.440
we were here and we did this thing, you know,

00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.230
and they admit at the time. They were trying

00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:13.490
to serve their neighbor. They were trying to

00:18:13.490 --> 00:18:15.190
serve their community. They didn't necessarily,

00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:16.950
they were young guys. They didn't necessarily

00:18:16.950 --> 00:18:20.089
recognize that they were changing the world because

00:18:20.089 --> 00:18:23.369
they were in one neighborhood in one city. They

00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:24.769
weren't seeing what was happening necessarily

00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:26.529
all over the country. But then, you know, in

00:18:26.529 --> 00:18:32.130
1971, 1972, emergency comes out and they see

00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:34.269
it on television, you know, and it's kind of

00:18:34.269 --> 00:18:37.390
like, oh, oh my, like, wait a minute, what, what

00:18:37.390 --> 00:18:40.349
is happening? And they were very excited, very

00:18:40.349 --> 00:18:44.289
shocked. But, you know, mainly very excited.

00:18:44.369 --> 00:18:46.630
And I just don't think that they were anticipating

00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:49.529
that the world would pivot away from them, that

00:18:49.529 --> 00:18:51.170
they would just be sort of written out of history.

00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:54.829
So, you know, I think for them more than anything

00:18:54.829 --> 00:19:00.210
else is just recognition that in this time and

00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:02.950
this place, these people stepped forward and

00:19:02.950 --> 00:19:06.009
did this thing. Well, I think it's just such

00:19:06.009 --> 00:19:09.349
a good example of how completely fucking ridiculous

00:19:09.349 --> 00:19:13.059
racism is too. Like, oh, that that guy could

00:19:13.059 --> 00:19:15.059
never be a paramedic because his pigmentation

00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:19.319
is darker and he's more muscular. It makes no

00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.940
sense. Or like the fact that he does it, the

00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:26.539
fact that he is the paramedic must mean that

00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:28.920
a paramedic is less valuable than it otherwise

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:33.019
would be. Yeah, exactly. Insane. Well, Stan on.

00:19:34.220 --> 00:19:36.660
Entertainment for a second. Between the last

00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.539
time we've spoken now, I watched Asphalt City.

00:19:39.700 --> 00:19:44.500
Have you seen that film? No. Interesting. So

00:19:44.500 --> 00:19:50.319
Sean Penn plays a burnt out New York paramedic.

00:19:52.109 --> 00:19:54.869
um it sounds i've literally listened to part

00:19:54.869 --> 00:19:56.589
of an interview you did just just to kind of

00:19:56.589 --> 00:19:59.450
prep for this again um and the host mentioned

00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:01.750
had you read black flies and when he described

00:20:01.750 --> 00:20:04.329
what backfires was about i'm like i bet you that's

00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:06.809
what asphalt city was based on so yeah very very

00:20:06.809 --> 00:20:10.970
dark very bleak okay but um it it's it's the

00:20:10.970 --> 00:20:13.470
rawness that we need in the storytelling of fire

00:20:13.470 --> 00:20:17.809
and ems but completely devoid of any hope so

00:20:17.809 --> 00:20:21.289
i think you know if you go too far that way you

00:20:21.289 --> 00:20:23.170
just paint us as a bunch of people that are basically

00:20:23.170 --> 00:20:26.410
going to end up in a coffin soon and not show

00:20:26.410 --> 00:20:29.390
the light that's involved as well yeah that's

00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:31.890
really always frustrates me like there's this

00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:34.789
notion and anytime i've ever you know i've been

00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:39.170
involved in a bunch of different ems tv and film

00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:42.049
projects and you know the producers are always

00:20:42.049 --> 00:20:45.079
like oh you know these guys are one step away

00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:46.980
from death and all this you know they're all

00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:50.200
ready to blow their brains and i'm like where

00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:52.119
are you guys getting this from it's you know

00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:54.099
it's like somebody told them 20 years ago hey

00:20:54.099 --> 00:20:55.859
this is what it's supposed to look like and then

00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:59.319
they're all just sort of regurgitating it um

00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:01.940
that was my problem with the scorsese movie was

00:21:01.940 --> 00:21:04.640
you know the first 30 minutes or 40 minutes or

00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.180
whatever really felt like ems bringing out the

00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:11.400
dead but then it that kind of takes this crazy

00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:17.240
you know dog leg and it gets kind of dark and

00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:22.240
i don't i i find it because there's so much humor

00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:27.920
and there's a lot of hope and there's a lot of

00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.759
adrenaline and there's boredom and there's frustration

00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.539
and you know there is darkness there there are

00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:37.740
people who are really burned out but i don't

00:21:37.740 --> 00:21:39.839
think everybody's really burned out i've yet

00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:41.380
to you know i've traveled all over the country

00:21:41.380 --> 00:21:44.380
and talked to emas people I don't find them to

00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:47.380
be like Pacey with black rings under their eyes

00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:50.380
and just like dragging themselves unhappily through

00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:53.259
life, you know, uh, ready to jump off the next

00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:56.079
building. Like that's just not who we are as

00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:00.039
a community. Um, I think we're, you know, like

00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.500
oftentimes fucking crazy and, you know, you gotta

00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:05.740
like keep a leash on us. Cause if you, you know,

00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.079
you allow us to wander among polite company,

00:22:08.220 --> 00:22:11.640
we might, um, you know, we might, things might

00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:16.759
get ugly, but, We're as frustrated as we can

00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:22.420
get. We're here because this thing is a calling.

00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:25.779
I talked about that in my book. You could make

00:22:25.779 --> 00:22:28.000
more money in almost any other kind of medicine.

00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.579
Why are people here? What is it that draws people

00:22:30.579 --> 00:22:35.059
to this specifically? There are drier places.

00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.500
There are safer places. There are air -conditioned

00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:40.730
places. There are heated places. So why are you

00:22:40.730 --> 00:22:42.390
here? Why are you on an ambulance? Why are you

00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:45.069
crouching in a street corner with your, you know,

00:22:45.069 --> 00:22:50.549
flashlight in your teeth? Why is it that you're

00:22:50.549 --> 00:22:53.230
doing this and you're not somewhere else? And,

00:22:53.250 --> 00:22:56.390
you know, there is a sense of service. There's

00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:59.789
some weird thing that calls us to it. And I,

00:22:59.890 --> 00:23:03.150
you know, and I just think it all always misses

00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:05.230
that. And I find it. So I really have a hard

00:23:05.230 --> 00:23:08.650
time watching those depictions because it's like.

00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:12.480
man that's just not like nobody who's ever done

00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.160
it really feels like this you know well that's

00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.420
what i'm doing i'm trying to uh turn kinder into

00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:21.579
a tv show at the moment i say trying to i am

00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:23.720
going you know it is happening very very slowly

00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.660
but you know come hell or high water it will

00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:28.880
be there but there isn't you know there is a

00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.380
character who is initially going through a dark

00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:35.349
place but i wanted to illustrate the hope and

00:23:35.349 --> 00:23:37.390
healing that also goes hand in hand with that

00:23:37.390 --> 00:23:39.869
and yes you can be burnt down from a combination

00:23:39.869 --> 00:23:42.609
of childhood trauma and the insane shifts and

00:23:42.609 --> 00:23:44.410
sleep deprivation and organizational betrayal

00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:46.289
and some of these other things that do compound

00:23:46.289 --> 00:23:49.450
that you know contribute to this suicide crisis

00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:52.569
that we do have but if you end the sentence there

00:23:52.569 --> 00:23:54.869
then it's like oh well that's really sad yeah

00:23:54.869 --> 00:23:57.650
but there's but but is the most important word

00:23:57.650 --> 00:24:01.680
but they are preventable if you start addressing

00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.059
each piece that contributes to this burnout to

00:24:04.059 --> 00:24:05.920
this breakdown whether it's in their own life

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:08.559
or whether it's in the organization the beautiful

00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:10.759
thing is you can forge an environment where a

00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:12.599
paramedic or a firefighter or a police officer

00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.480
can thrive and they'll still be tired at the

00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:16.859
end of the shift and there'll still be some stuff

00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:19.900
they've got to process but their world will be

00:24:19.900 --> 00:24:22.660
designed to allow them to work through that and

00:24:22.660 --> 00:24:24.619
then become more resilient you know grow from

00:24:24.619 --> 00:24:27.440
it yeah but I think, like you said, you either

00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:29.799
have the Tacoma FD where we're all a bunch of

00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:31.599
fucking idiots, you know, which I've had the

00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:33.940
guys from that show on here too. Or you have

00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:36.420
the Asphalt City where it's all doom and gloom.

00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.859
I think Code 3 did a good job of kind of balancing,

00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:41.400
you know, the fun and the darkness a little bit.

00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:44.779
But I haven't seen anything really on screen

00:24:44.779 --> 00:24:46.559
yet, which is what I want to do. That's like,

00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:49.279
yeah, these are things. And if they're left unaddressed,

00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:52.839
yes, they result in funerals. here's what we

00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:55.079
can do here. You know, here, here's why we get

00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.299
there and here's how you can not get there. And,

00:24:57.299 --> 00:24:59.799
you know, here's how you can look back at the

00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:02.420
generational trauma and all these other things,

00:25:02.500 --> 00:25:04.700
but whether it's us in the uniform or the people

00:25:04.700 --> 00:25:07.200
that we're responding to, it's the same conversation.

00:25:07.859 --> 00:25:10.400
People will struggle if they're left to just

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.599
drown on their own, but you teach them to swim

00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:15.440
and you give them a boat, all of a sudden they're

00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:17.759
thriving now, you know? So I think that's the

00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.839
one I haven't really seen on the screen yet that

00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:22.140
I'm hoping to be able to bring. Yeah. Yeah. No,

00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:24.619
I mean, I, look, I wish you nothing but success

00:25:24.619 --> 00:25:29.700
in that regard. We may have more, you know, more

00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:34.259
of that than other fields, but, you know, walk,

00:25:34.339 --> 00:25:36.559
like meet a bunch of accountants. There's some

00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.680
depressed people there, you know, go and, you

00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.299
know, meet, meet chefs, meet, you know, doctors,

00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:45.680
use car salesmen. It doesn't matter the field.

00:25:47.349 --> 00:25:49.869
But for some reason, EMS is the only thing that

00:25:49.869 --> 00:25:53.470
gets a very one -note depiction. And it is, they're

00:25:53.470 --> 00:25:57.589
either kind of like buffoonish or it's just really

00:25:57.589 --> 00:25:59.450
dark. Or, you know, you have sort of like the

00:25:59.450 --> 00:26:03.390
911 thing, which is, you know, they're in space.

00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:05.950
Like there was an episode where they were in

00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:08.849
space. I saw those promos and I was like, why

00:26:08.849 --> 00:26:12.670
are they in space? That's a hell of a transport

00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:16.319
time. Yeah, yeah, seriously. I mean, somebody's

00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.720
going to be calling them with questions. But

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:25.180
yeah, it is either this sort of buffoonish hero,

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:32.279
buffoonish buffoon, or very bleak. And I don't

00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:34.559
think any of those things are really indicative.

00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:39.329
No. Well, what about in the real world? You have

00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:40.970
an unusual perspective, kind of like I do now,

00:26:41.029 --> 00:26:42.789
from the outside looking in, but still connected

00:26:42.789 --> 00:26:46.869
very much to that world itself. What are you

00:26:46.869 --> 00:26:52.210
hearing as far as recruitment, retention, the

00:26:52.210 --> 00:26:55.250
desire to enter our profession? And how does

00:26:55.250 --> 00:26:58.269
that contrast, if at all, to when you were first

00:26:58.269 --> 00:27:03.130
pursuing this career? I mean, I entered into

00:27:03.130 --> 00:27:07.460
this in the aftermath of 9 -11. um kids entering

00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:10.779
into it now weren't even alive in 9 11. you know

00:27:10.779 --> 00:27:12.440
you think about that for a moment and that's

00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:14.940
a like that's just something i can't wrap my

00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:17.400
head around but that's the reality so i entered

00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:20.599
into it at a time where there was this tremendous

00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:28.710
sense of um you know like um People wanted to

00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:31.349
be part of something bigger. There was a desire

00:27:31.349 --> 00:27:34.769
to serve. There was this notion that we're all

00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:37.609
in this together. Let's pull on the same oar.

00:27:39.309 --> 00:27:42.369
Obviously, the countries in a different place

00:27:42.369 --> 00:27:48.369
right now are incredibly divided. But to answer

00:27:48.369 --> 00:27:54.710
this question, I actually did an update to strangers.

00:27:55.949 --> 00:27:58.309
There's a new chapter that I wrote, but in order

00:27:58.309 --> 00:28:01.009
to write it, I went back and did a ride along.

00:28:01.569 --> 00:28:06.690
And the place where I worked, Grady, they reached

00:28:06.690 --> 00:28:10.369
a point where they had so few medics that they

00:28:10.369 --> 00:28:12.009
actually were running, for the first time in

00:28:12.009 --> 00:28:14.329
their history, they were running double EMT trucks,

00:28:14.569 --> 00:28:19.849
basic trucks. And then they would have paramedic

00:28:19.849 --> 00:28:23.869
chase cars. So if there was a bad call. The paramedic

00:28:23.869 --> 00:28:26.190
in a chase car would just go and drive and hop

00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:28.349
on the ambulance and take the call, which we

00:28:28.349 --> 00:28:30.849
had a number of double medic trucks and certainly

00:28:30.849 --> 00:28:33.430
no truck ever would have gone anywhere without

00:28:33.430 --> 00:28:36.930
a paramedic. And that was a response to COVID.

00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:39.430
So many people left. So many people got burned

00:28:39.430 --> 00:28:44.859
out and frustrated. You can hang a sign above

00:28:44.859 --> 00:28:46.920
the door that says heroes work here. But if you

00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.299
treat people like shit, then they know, you know,

00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:52.200
they know damn well that heroes don't work here.

00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:54.980
At least that's not how anybody sees it. Heroes

00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:58.400
used to work here. Yeah, exactly. You know, you

00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.220
know, the cosmic joke right there, which, you

00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:02.259
know, I mean, one of the things I love about

00:29:02.259 --> 00:29:05.619
EMS is that like people like our ability to laugh

00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:07.819
at our own horrible predicament. You know, it's

00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:09.380
like, yeah, this sucks, but I kind of like how

00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:14.119
much it sucks. And, you know, so I'm sure that

00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:15.680
everybody was laughing when they saw those heroes

00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.599
work here signs go up. But, you know, you mentioned

00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:22.319
institutional betrayal. I mean, COVID really

00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.960
brought that to the fore. You know, people being

00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.680
asked to go out and serve the public without

00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:32.180
proper equipment, you know, without training,

00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:34.480
without the support, without the people necessary

00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.299
to make it happen. So I think that experience

00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:44.380
really decimated the ranks. What it took away

00:29:44.380 --> 00:29:47.400
from Grady in particular, but other services

00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:50.259
and other people I've talked to, is the experience.

00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.799
You've got someone who's been on the street for

00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:56.859
five years, 10, 15, 20 years. That person has

00:29:56.859 --> 00:29:59.000
something to teach, really something to teach.

00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.000
There's a wealth of knowledge and experience.

00:30:04.250 --> 00:30:07.190
that have gone in their eyes and out through

00:30:07.190 --> 00:30:09.589
their hands, and they're ready now to teach it

00:30:09.589 --> 00:30:11.089
to you. So when those people leave, when you

00:30:11.089 --> 00:30:15.289
lose them as an organization, you lose all that

00:30:15.289 --> 00:30:17.170
experience, you lose that history. And so much

00:30:17.170 --> 00:30:18.750
of what this is, is history. I mean, let's be

00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:21.789
honest. People stay at a place because they have

00:30:21.789 --> 00:30:25.539
pride in that particular place. our service you

00:30:25.539 --> 00:30:27.380
know wherever you're living our service man in

00:30:27.380 --> 00:30:29.619
this city like we we do this and we do this we're

00:30:29.619 --> 00:30:31.380
really good at it we give a damn but we're not

00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:34.660
like these guys over here you know who who who

00:30:34.660 --> 00:30:38.079
suck like when you when you don't get paid super

00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.099
well and your conditions just by design you know

00:30:42.099 --> 00:30:44.440
like ems the conditions are always going to be

00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:46.680
hard that's just how it is in fact that's why

00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:49.200
most of us want to do it like you maybe you don't

00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.079
want to be in emergency and you'd rather be in

00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:52.519
someone's living room you'd rather be in the

00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.230
street in an alley wherever um you know these

00:30:56.230 --> 00:30:59.589
are like you're there on purpose but it contributes

00:30:59.589 --> 00:31:01.650
to making the job hard you take an incredible

00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:04.089
amount of pride in that and the history of your

00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:09.069
organization builds and reflects that pride so

00:31:09.069 --> 00:31:11.230
when you lose all those people you lose that

00:31:11.230 --> 00:31:12.750
history you lose that connection to something

00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:15.859
else so new people coming in You know, I look

00:31:15.859 --> 00:31:18.039
at these new Grady medics and I kind of like,

00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.259
you know, I feel bad for you. You don't have

00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:22.039
like when I started, there were guys from the

00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:25.920
90s, the early 90s. And when they started, there

00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:28.920
were people from the early 80s and the 70s. You

00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.240
know, we were only we were one link in the chain

00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:34.240
removed from the origin. And some of our supervisors

00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:38.059
had started in 81. You know, there was this connection.

00:31:38.180 --> 00:31:40.500
It was a there was a definitive line from how

00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:45.459
it started to how it was. And that created. our,

00:31:45.459 --> 00:31:47.920
it created the culture, it created our attitude,

00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:51.039
it created the pride we took, you know, someone

00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.940
who, you know, was working in Grady in the eighties

00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:56.819
when it was the murder capital, like that, you

00:31:56.819 --> 00:31:58.299
know, and there were no medics and they were

00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:01.400
just tons of calls and, you know, they were just

00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:03.960
running like crazy and getting paid crap. But

00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:05.779
there, because they had pride in what they did,

00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:07.900
if you showed up and you sucked at your job,

00:32:08.019 --> 00:32:10.500
like you would get chewed out by some 55 year

00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:12.880
old guy, you know, sitting there smoking a cigarette

00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.700
and some like, threadbare bomber jacket with

00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:18.839
a patch on his arm from, from 91, you know, and

00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.059
he's just like bawling you out because he remembers

00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:24.000
how this is supposed to be. And when you lose

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.039
those people, you just, gosh, you lose so much.

00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:28.460
And so that to me, I think is a lot of what has

00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:32.259
walked out the door is history, the pride experience,

00:32:32.539 --> 00:32:35.920
of course, but, but the culture of EMS is something

00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:40.019
that gets passed along. COVID really did a number

00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:45.279
on that. The other thing I think when, if we're

00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.319
talking about COVID that I thought was disgusting

00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:51.000
is, and I transitioned out like literally a couple

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:54.819
of years before, so my timing was good. But you

00:32:54.819 --> 00:32:57.339
had these people that were out there, unprotected,

00:32:57.339 --> 00:33:01.339
minimal PPE. And then what was it? Not even a

00:33:01.339 --> 00:33:04.059
year later, now they're being called murderers

00:33:04.059 --> 00:33:06.000
if they didn't have the vaccine. And you talk

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:08.059
about organizational betrayal. You were fine

00:33:08.059 --> 00:33:10.910
hiding in your house. Well, these people were

00:33:10.910 --> 00:33:13.170
out in the front line, in the streets, in the

00:33:13.170 --> 00:33:16.890
hospitals, you know, with no vaccine then. And

00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:19.230
you were just totally OK with that. And now all

00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:21.009
of a sudden you have the audacity to call a police

00:33:21.009 --> 00:33:23.589
officer or a firefighter or a paramedic a murderer

00:33:23.589 --> 00:33:26.329
because they're not having a vaccine. And then

00:33:26.329 --> 00:33:29.009
fast forward another couple of years, it is proven

00:33:29.009 --> 00:33:31.890
that the efficacy of that vaccine wasn't even

00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:33.890
close to what everyone was being told. And let

00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:36.430
me be very clear. I had the vaccine so I could

00:33:36.430 --> 00:33:38.589
go travel and see my 105 year old grandmother

00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:41.339
in England. So I didn't think it was going to

00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:42.980
make my head explode, but I wouldn't have had

00:33:42.980 --> 00:33:46.740
it done had I not traveled. So, you know, standing

00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:49.920
in the middle. But the fact that then people

00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.940
were terminated for not having the vaccine, that

00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:57.069
I think. was like the Afghanistan withdrawal.

00:33:57.410 --> 00:34:00.029
If there was any trust before, you just completely

00:34:00.029 --> 00:34:02.329
destroyed it with not standing behind your people

00:34:02.329 --> 00:34:05.549
and advocating for them after they had been completely

00:34:05.549 --> 00:34:09.369
naked as far as any sort of protection. And then

00:34:09.369 --> 00:34:11.710
there's this 180 and now you're firing them for

00:34:11.710 --> 00:34:15.269
not having this vaccine. So I think the leaders

00:34:15.269 --> 00:34:18.530
in the unions and the organizations need to look

00:34:18.530 --> 00:34:20.369
in the mirror and realize they are a big part

00:34:20.369 --> 00:34:22.510
of the recruitment crisis. And that is a massive

00:34:22.510 --> 00:34:25.599
piece, I think. yeah yeah i'm sure you're right

00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.699
i mean you know i i got the vaccine um you know

00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:33.079
i just generally speaking you know i'm a believer

00:34:33.079 --> 00:34:37.039
in them um the reason that we don't have polio

00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:39.300
is because our parents and our grandparents got

00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:44.739
the polio vaccine um but you know that was uh

00:34:44.739 --> 00:34:49.059
you know covid was history being made. It was,

00:34:49.059 --> 00:34:52.460
you know, the future arriving an hour early and

00:34:52.460 --> 00:34:54.900
us trying to figure out how to handle it. And

00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:59.079
we didn't handle it well. I mean, even, you know,

00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.400
I mean, forget for a moment the deniers. I have

00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:05.440
a hard time with, you know, like it would be

00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.500
like, I don't understand auto mechanics. That

00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:09.460
doesn't mean I don't believe that a fuel injector

00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:12.500
injects fuel. I don't understand how it works,

00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:14.500
but I know it works. And I'm willing to accept

00:35:14.500 --> 00:35:21.050
that it happens. But anyone, you know, people

00:35:21.050 --> 00:35:24.150
who were well -intentioned and were trying their

00:35:24.150 --> 00:35:28.110
best to figure out how to proceed were, you know,

00:35:28.150 --> 00:35:31.429
missteps are going to happen in a situation like

00:35:31.429 --> 00:35:35.429
that. But you need to be really open about it

00:35:35.429 --> 00:35:37.510
and say like, hey, guys, here's a mistake we

00:35:37.510 --> 00:35:39.349
made. As it turns out, you know, kids weren't

00:35:39.349 --> 00:35:43.260
a big vector. Why is that? I have no idea. Because

00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:44.900
I'll tell you right now, if there's a measles

00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:46.800
outbreak in my area, I'm not sending my kids

00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:48.300
to school because they're all going to get measles.

00:35:49.059 --> 00:35:51.400
For whatever reason, COVID did not run rampant

00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.039
through schools, even though it ran rampant through

00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:59.239
funerals and retirement homes. So why was one

00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:01.940
community or one population more than others?

00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.059
We don't know. I'm sure somebody knows. I don't

00:36:05.059 --> 00:36:08.599
know. But as those mistakes were made, I don't

00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:12.230
feel like we were always... You know, really

00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:16.170
forthcoming. And that breeds distrust and distrust

00:36:16.170 --> 00:36:18.969
breeds, you know, all the other, all the fear

00:36:18.969 --> 00:36:21.190
and everything else that came up. And, you know,

00:36:21.190 --> 00:36:25.150
it's just, it seems like, but human history,

00:36:25.210 --> 00:36:28.309
I mean, you go back when cholera was discovered

00:36:28.309 --> 00:36:30.650
in the 1830s, people didn't think cholera was

00:36:30.650 --> 00:36:35.389
real. The flu pandemic that swept the world in

00:36:35.389 --> 00:36:37.309
the turn of the 20th century, people were not

00:36:37.309 --> 00:36:41.360
convinced that was real. 2014 Ebola epidemic

00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:46.340
completely washes over three nations in West

00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:48.139
Africa. There are people there who don't believe

00:36:48.139 --> 00:36:50.380
it's real, even though their neighbors are literally

00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:53.000
being burned in the street because nobody has

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:54.960
anywhere to put these bodies. They still don't

00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:56.780
believe it's real because there's a lack of trust

00:36:56.780 --> 00:36:59.440
in the government. At some point, you got to

00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.900
turn to people and say, like, man, like, if you're

00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:05.400
in the government, what have we done wrong that

00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:10.519
people can look at a stack? of corpses being

00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:14.820
burned in the street and not believe that the

00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:18.219
disease that caused it is really the disease

00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:21.659
that caused it um you know where did that trust

00:37:21.659 --> 00:37:25.000
go and i you know i think communication is like

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:28.059
the number one thing that everybody always gets

00:37:28.059 --> 00:37:31.780
wrong well the biggest thing i think was after

00:37:31.780 --> 00:37:34.369
the fact like you said here's what we did right

00:37:34.369 --> 00:37:36.670
here's what we did wrong and one of the things

00:37:36.670 --> 00:37:38.789
that to this day as we're sitting here and you

00:37:38.789 --> 00:37:42.750
know february whatever it is on 2026 still isn't

00:37:42.750 --> 00:37:45.590
being addressed as well the one truth during

00:37:45.590 --> 00:37:48.550
covid was the healthier you are the higher chance

00:37:48.550 --> 00:37:50.969
there is of you surviving getting covid or even

00:37:50.969 --> 00:37:53.329
not even noticing that you had covid and you

00:37:53.329 --> 00:37:54.969
know what are most kids they're healthy they

00:37:54.969 --> 00:37:57.150
don't have pre -existing conditions yet so i

00:37:57.150 --> 00:37:59.570
think that's a big common denominator yeah um

00:37:59.570 --> 00:38:03.099
and That also completely aligns with the burnout

00:38:03.099 --> 00:38:06.739
of our fire and EMS. You know, no one talks about

00:38:06.739 --> 00:38:09.260
the fact that this country is basically three

00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:13.099
quarters overweight or obese, almost half obese,

00:38:13.300 --> 00:38:17.699
clinically obese. So coming out of a pandemic

00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:21.860
that clearly if you are hypertensive, diabetic,

00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:23.900
you know, all these things, these preexisting

00:38:23.900 --> 00:38:27.119
conditions, smoker, that there's a much higher

00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:29.050
chance that you're going to get killed. if there

00:38:29.050 --> 00:38:31.050
was one takeaway it said well we need to make

00:38:31.050 --> 00:38:33.030
our nation healthier and even if you look at

00:38:33.030 --> 00:38:35.409
the spanish flu that was world war one time that

00:38:35.409 --> 00:38:38.210
was you know poverty and you know not the hygiene

00:38:38.210 --> 00:38:39.989
conditions that we have now it's the same kind

00:38:39.989 --> 00:38:43.550
of thing but not obesity just you know um compromised

00:38:43.550 --> 00:38:47.010
immune systems from a different way so what really

00:38:47.010 --> 00:38:50.590
pisses me off is why as we came out of covid

00:38:50.590 --> 00:38:53.679
there wasn't a conversation like look Our country

00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:57.219
is incredibly overweight and unhealthy. We have

00:38:57.219 --> 00:39:00.460
a profit -based healthcare system. Our EMS and

00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:03.659
hospitals are literally crumbling as we speak.

00:39:03.980 --> 00:39:06.639
We need to put real food back in schools. We

00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:09.199
need to bolster PE programs. We need to give

00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.039
local farmers incentives to grow healthy food.

00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:15.320
We need to pedestrianize downtown areas, put

00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:18.769
more public transport in so that... We can match

00:39:18.769 --> 00:39:20.829
other countries that are doing this kind of thing,

00:39:20.889 --> 00:39:23.030
and they have a very healthy population. That

00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:25.050
would help the EMS side. That would help whatever

00:39:25.050 --> 00:39:28.769
the next virus is called. But there was none

00:39:28.769 --> 00:39:32.050
of that. The opposite, because there's no money

00:39:32.050 --> 00:39:34.429
in healthy people. We're very little money. The

00:39:34.429 --> 00:39:36.630
money is all in the sick. And I think that's

00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:38.409
one thing that we as a nation really have to

00:39:38.409 --> 00:39:40.690
push back on. And it's not a left thing. It's

00:39:40.690 --> 00:39:43.530
not a right thing. But over the last 30 years,

00:39:43.610 --> 00:39:45.969
we have got fatter and fatter and sicker and

00:39:45.969 --> 00:39:48.699
sicker. And that is one, not the only reason,

00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.739
but one of the reasons why, you know, our hospitals

00:39:51.739 --> 00:39:54.699
and our EMS systems are crumbling because more

00:39:54.699 --> 00:39:57.519
and more and more people are calling 911 and

00:39:57.519 --> 00:39:59.920
more and more and more people are filling triage

00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:03.139
in hospitals. Yeah. No, there's no doubt about

00:40:03.139 --> 00:40:08.440
that. But you're right. There's no money in doing

00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:10.619
that. In fact, it's the opposite because, you

00:40:10.619 --> 00:40:12.820
know, if you're going to try to make downtowns

00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:15.059
walkable, you got to spend money. Public transportation,

00:40:15.340 --> 00:40:19.969
you got to spend money. You know, you look at

00:40:19.969 --> 00:40:22.170
like our food pyramids kind of out of whack,

00:40:22.369 --> 00:40:25.210
you know, tons of money is being dumped into

00:40:25.210 --> 00:40:29.889
like things that, you know, getting farmers to

00:40:29.889 --> 00:40:32.670
grow tons of one thing that we don't need or

00:40:32.670 --> 00:40:36.730
paying them to not grow some other thing. You

00:40:36.730 --> 00:40:39.250
know, it's like kind of blows your mind. And

00:40:39.250 --> 00:40:40.769
then you look at, you know, one of these documentaries

00:40:40.769 --> 00:40:43.980
about these blue zones. They don't eat any of

00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:45.739
the things that we eat. And really what it comes

00:40:45.739 --> 00:40:50.980
down to is like a limited amount of food, daily

00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:53.900
exercise, community. And these are things that

00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:59.380
we lack. We don't eat unprocessed whole foods

00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:03.320
in reasonable quantities. We don't get normal.

00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:06.159
And I'm not talking CrossFit nonsense, but like

00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:11.329
normal. activity type exercise. I mean, there

00:41:11.329 --> 00:41:12.909
was, you know, in one of those documentaries

00:41:12.909 --> 00:41:16.269
that there was a guy, you know, he's 105 or something.

00:41:16.369 --> 00:41:18.289
And they said, why are you so, you know, why

00:41:18.289 --> 00:41:20.489
do you think people in this area are live so

00:41:20.489 --> 00:41:22.789
long? And he talked about the fact that they

00:41:22.789 --> 00:41:25.550
sit on the floor to eat. This was in Japan. And

00:41:25.550 --> 00:41:28.050
he said, you know, you can't be unhealthy. You

00:41:28.050 --> 00:41:29.710
can't have bad joints. You can't be overweight.

00:41:29.789 --> 00:41:32.670
You can't be out of shape and get on the floor

00:41:32.670 --> 00:41:36.960
and get up again at 97. You know, you, you. like

00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:41.239
it requires but you know not even tons of work

00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:44.980
but it requires you to be a certain type who

00:41:44.980 --> 00:41:48.139
requires you know the constant energy and effort

00:41:48.139 --> 00:41:51.519
and and you know requires you to be reasonably

00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:54.239
healthy and then of course community like we

00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.500
just we seem to be almost like actively working

00:41:57.500 --> 00:42:00.340
against community like finding ways to tear community

00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:04.480
apart whether it's the design of cities or you

00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.380
know like the lunacy that is social media right

00:42:07.380 --> 00:42:12.079
now um i don't know it's uh like we it's like

00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.199
we are a study in how to how to shorten your

00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:19.260
lifespan um we're very successful at it like

00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:21.019
we're working hard we sure are we're working

00:42:21.019 --> 00:42:25.559
hard i saw a few times that i think i don't know

00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.860
if it was based on a study but i mean forget

00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:31.280
science it just makes sense but the biggest predictor

00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:36.650
of health longevity wasn't exercise level wasn't

00:42:36.650 --> 00:42:39.409
even nutrition. It was community. Because if

00:42:39.409 --> 00:42:41.449
you feel connected to people, when you said CrossFit,

00:42:41.489 --> 00:42:43.070
one of the biggest selling points of CrossFit

00:42:43.070 --> 00:42:44.849
was not thrashing yourself to death, but it was

00:42:44.849 --> 00:42:46.670
being in a room where the people that were suffering

00:42:46.670 --> 00:42:49.750
together. And a lot of times, you know, I know

00:42:49.750 --> 00:42:51.530
it's kind of counterintuitive, but then people

00:42:51.530 --> 00:42:53.250
will go from CrossFit and they'll go sit in a

00:42:53.250 --> 00:42:55.650
brewery for an hour and talk and, you know, have

00:42:55.650 --> 00:42:59.050
a post -workout beer. That is the big thing.

00:42:59.210 --> 00:43:01.469
Spartan races, same thing. You know what I mean?

00:43:01.489 --> 00:43:03.570
It's not so much about, oh, this is hard climbing

00:43:03.570 --> 00:43:05.190
this fence. It's that you're doing it together.

00:43:05.329 --> 00:43:07.369
And, oh, there's a veteran who's missing a leg.

00:43:07.449 --> 00:43:10.469
Let's help him get over this wall. That's the

00:43:10.469 --> 00:43:12.829
bit that's missing. And I can't help but feel

00:43:12.829 --> 00:43:15.809
like it is deliberately orchestrated, the fracturing

00:43:15.809 --> 00:43:18.389
of community, because, you know, the age -old

00:43:18.389 --> 00:43:21.070
saying, united we stand, divided we fall. And

00:43:21.070 --> 00:43:24.510
we're falling at the moment. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't

00:43:24.510 --> 00:43:27.530
agree with you more. I mean, all that is the

00:43:27.530 --> 00:43:34.110
case, and here we are. And here we are. I'm a,

00:43:34.110 --> 00:43:36.989
you know, what I call angry optimist. I truly

00:43:36.989 --> 00:43:40.389
believe that, you know, the silent majority in

00:43:40.389 --> 00:43:42.090
the middle, we're starting to kind of, you know,

00:43:42.090 --> 00:43:44.429
find our feet and find our voice again. I think

00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:46.550
there's going to be finally a pushback because

00:43:46.550 --> 00:43:48.789
people, I think, are realizing, you know, the

00:43:48.789 --> 00:43:50.750
right wing, the left wing, same bird, as they

00:43:50.750 --> 00:43:55.679
say. I think the list has helped a lot with these

00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:59.000
billionaire James Bond villains that we have

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:02.139
at the moment, seeing them fall and people realizing,

00:44:02.300 --> 00:44:04.320
well, none of this is actually benefiting us,

00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:08.119
our community, our schools, our safety, et cetera.

00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:11.719
So I hope that you have to hit rock bottom before

00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:15.039
you bounce up again. And I hope we're about to

00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.380
ascend again as a population because, I mean,

00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:22.329
yeah, it's pretty sad seeing what... should be

00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:24.489
people just enjoying their life like you said

00:44:24.489 --> 00:44:26.929
at each other's throats over a freaking politician

00:44:26.929 --> 00:44:28.929
that doesn't give a shit about them or over whether

00:44:28.929 --> 00:44:32.469
they wore a mask or not or you know whether one

00:44:32.469 --> 00:44:35.289
particular police incident defines the entire

00:44:35.289 --> 00:44:38.570
profession so uh yeah i'm looking forward to

00:44:38.570 --> 00:44:40.630
us coming together again you you alluded to 9

00:44:40.630 --> 00:44:44.070
11 as the phrase goes you know i miss 9 12 and

00:44:44.070 --> 00:44:47.050
we need to find that again yeah yeah i agree

00:44:47.050 --> 00:44:48.889
i mean look i'm not i'm not quite as hopeful

00:44:48.889 --> 00:44:51.570
as you are in the moment um most people aren't

00:44:51.570 --> 00:44:56.289
yeah i'm trying to find it um but you know i

00:44:56.289 --> 00:45:02.489
think i don't know um you know even even the

00:45:02.489 --> 00:45:05.210
mass conversation you know some of it to a degree

00:45:05.210 --> 00:45:10.210
we we spent a lot of time lionizing you know

00:45:10.210 --> 00:45:13.710
the greatest generation what is it that we celebrate

00:45:13.710 --> 00:45:16.690
them for it's not it's not even so much that

00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:22.639
they won a war which they clearly did um or necessarily

00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:26.860
that they came through the depression and you

00:45:26.860 --> 00:45:28.659
know had been sort of forged in this National

00:45:28.659 --> 00:45:33.280
hardship but it was that they sacrificed for

00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.860
everybody else around them and there is at the

00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:41.000
moment an unwillingness to even inconvenience

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.599
yourself for somebody else let alone sacrifice

00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:47.920
for somebody else and you know that to me was

00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:52.059
the that that was the big thing that really struck

00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:54.380
me you know during covert i mean look you're

00:45:54.380 --> 00:45:57.119
in medicine i'm in medicine i'm well aware that

00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:01.559
a surgical mask is not going to stop whatever

00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:04.539
you have from coming to me but i'm also aware

00:46:04.539 --> 00:46:08.099
that 30 years ago before any of this was political

00:46:08.099 --> 00:46:11.820
your surgeon would have worn a surgical mask

00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:14.760
hence the name to give you surgery because we

00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:19.119
knew And we had known for 100 years that what

00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.619
you breathe out goes into other people. And if

00:46:22.619 --> 00:46:27.019
you block what you breathe out, then you can

00:46:27.019 --> 00:46:30.980
limit the exposure of everyone around you to

00:46:30.980 --> 00:46:33.699
whatever germs you have. That was just accepted.

00:46:34.139 --> 00:46:39.639
And we allowed ourselves to sort of be baited

00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:45.210
into this angry argument that... really didn't

00:46:45.210 --> 00:46:49.369
serve anybody. But what it produced was this

00:46:49.369 --> 00:46:54.530
idea of like, I'm not going to do, I'm not going

00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:56.909
to convene myself, inconvenience myself in the

00:46:56.909 --> 00:47:00.710
least for you. And I don't care if you think

00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:02.389
it's going to make you better or somebody else

00:47:02.389 --> 00:47:05.130
tells me it's going to help you. I just don't

00:47:05.130 --> 00:47:07.489
feel like it. And that was, that was the frustrating

00:47:07.489 --> 00:47:12.050
thing was just, you know, I think. For all of

00:47:12.050 --> 00:47:15.889
our celebration of previous generations and their

00:47:15.889 --> 00:47:18.590
sacrifices, I think future generations will probably

00:47:18.590 --> 00:47:21.369
look at us and say, wow, it's a really selfish

00:47:21.369 --> 00:47:25.170
time. Whatever side of the political spectrum

00:47:25.170 --> 00:47:29.530
you are on, because they all have faults. Both

00:47:29.530 --> 00:47:32.590
sides are constantly doing something that you

00:47:32.590 --> 00:47:39.150
kind of go, really? But what is lacking, the

00:47:39.150 --> 00:47:43.659
unifying. problem that i see is this inability

00:47:43.659 --> 00:47:49.739
to sacrifice for others when uh when you know

00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:52.079
i was talking to marketing people for my book

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.099
that's you know the new one um one of them said

00:47:56.099 --> 00:47:58.699
you know like the the whole thing is the virus

00:47:58.699 --> 00:48:01.199
and the rescue all that's cool and it's exciting

00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:05.739
she said but what stood out to me was people

00:48:05.739 --> 00:48:09.960
risking their lives for strangers and she said

00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:13.739
the question that this book asked me was what

00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:16.079
are we willing to die for and are we ever going

00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:19.920
to have heroes again and it does we do feel like

00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:23.820
we're in a time where what are we willing to

00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:26.219
die for not a damn thing that isn't specific

00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:30.139
to me you know are there heroes anymore i don't

00:48:30.139 --> 00:48:32.119
know if i believe in heroes heroes heroes are

00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:36.320
fake news um you know like that's just it's really

00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:40.940
You know, I don't know. It's a little cynical.

00:48:41.300 --> 00:48:44.519
It feels a little self -centered. You know, I

00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:48.360
have children. So, you know, I really want to

00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:51.719
see improvement. I want to see us come together

00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:55.039
collectively because, you know, they're sort

00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:59.300
of wandering out into this world. And I don't

00:48:59.300 --> 00:49:02.639
want us to leave it worse than we could have.

00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:03.840
You know, they're already going to have enough

00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:07.239
challenges. I don't know. Hopefully we can kind

00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:10.699
of. right the ship. But I don't know how hopeful

00:49:10.699 --> 00:49:13.880
I am right now that we're getting there. Well,

00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:16.840
I think this is also why it's important for our

00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:21.679
profession to tell stories. Because if you talk

00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:23.800
about selflessness, I would, you know, not putting

00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:26.019
ourselves on a pedestal specifically, but the

00:49:26.019 --> 00:49:28.500
profession as a whole, you kiss your loved ones

00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:31.000
goodbye, you go away for 12 or 24 hours, and

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:33.559
you serve, you know, complete strangers. And

00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:35.380
I always try to work in the most desperate parts

00:49:35.380 --> 00:49:37.039
of town too, because I felt like that was...

00:49:37.469 --> 00:49:40.929
where the greatest need was. So we are kind of

00:49:40.929 --> 00:49:43.630
barometers on, you know, what service should

00:49:43.630 --> 00:49:46.309
look like, how the country is actually doing

00:49:46.309 --> 00:49:50.010
behind the curtain. And so the more, like you

00:49:50.010 --> 00:49:51.989
said, that aren't this kind of, you know, no

00:49:51.989 --> 00:49:53.889
disrespect to Chicago Fire, but the kind of,

00:49:53.889 --> 00:49:56.550
you know, soap opera storytelling. And I had

00:49:56.550 --> 00:49:58.750
the founder, the creator of that on. I know he

00:49:58.750 --> 00:50:00.469
wants it to be a lot more raw, but Hollywood

00:50:00.469 --> 00:50:04.860
shapes, curves the edges of his stories. But

00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:08.199
I think we're not really a voice. There's no

00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:11.079
Jocko Willink of Fire and EMS, for example. You

00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:13.360
know what I mean? We don't have those pieces,

00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:17.500
those faces. So I think that we are a profession

00:50:17.500 --> 00:50:19.980
that maybe can kind of shift it a little bit

00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:21.619
and bring everyone back to the middle and say,

00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:23.539
well, this is what service is supposed to look

00:50:23.539 --> 00:50:26.699
like. Because even as we sit here now, we don't

00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:29.760
have many members of our military that are really...

00:50:29.949 --> 00:50:32.869
you know, in combat, which is a phenomenal thing.

00:50:32.969 --> 00:50:35.409
And that used to be one of the bigger voices

00:50:35.409 --> 00:50:38.610
of the last 10 plus years. So now it's the people

00:50:38.610 --> 00:50:40.809
that are on the streets every day. It's us, you

00:50:40.809 --> 00:50:43.969
know, or our, you know, the next generation of

00:50:43.969 --> 00:50:47.510
our profession. So I think that we have a really

00:50:47.510 --> 00:50:50.329
good opportunity to be one of the storytellers,

00:50:50.329 --> 00:50:52.469
you know, one of the kind of perspectives on.

00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:55.420
What selflessness and service looks like, who's

00:50:55.420 --> 00:50:58.239
really struggling, how we can help them, how

00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:00.380
compassion and empathy is, you know, is going

00:51:00.380 --> 00:51:03.059
to work and division and nastiness and hate isn't.

00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:05.739
I mean, we live that. That's the meat grinder

00:51:05.739 --> 00:51:08.559
that we occupy. So I think that, you know, that

00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:10.260
your book and my book and some of the other ones

00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:13.380
that are out there and some of the shows, there's

00:51:13.380 --> 00:51:15.940
so much that we could do, not just showing, you

00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:18.659
know, the cool stories of the fire or EMS world,

00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.929
but. the human stories in the uniforms and the

00:51:21.929 --> 00:51:25.389
people that we serve. Yeah. One of the things

00:51:25.389 --> 00:51:30.050
that drives me nuts is this push by, you know,

00:51:30.070 --> 00:51:35.050
sort of medical academia or, or administrations

00:51:35.050 --> 00:51:38.610
refer to patients as clients. And it's, I know

00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:40.869
it has, you know, I'm sure it's an insurance

00:51:40.869 --> 00:51:44.289
thing and it's a Jayco thing and it's a billing

00:51:44.289 --> 00:51:47.329
thing and all these other, but like, I wouldn't

00:51:47.329 --> 00:51:51.980
let. a customer puke on me i wouldn't let a customer

00:51:51.980 --> 00:51:55.599
take a swing at me but what i'm willing to endure

00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:58.739
for my patients you know like what i'm like the

00:51:58.739 --> 00:52:03.039
patients have thrown up on me i haven't blinked

00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:05.300
you know i mean it's like i don't enjoy it it's

00:52:05.300 --> 00:52:08.599
not like if i can dodge it i will and you know

00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:11.219
all the better if i can dodge it so my partner

00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:12.960
doesn't see it coming and he gets splattered

00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.789
um so we can laugh about it later but you know,

00:52:16.829 --> 00:52:18.710
what, what you're willing to accept from a patient

00:52:18.710 --> 00:52:21.869
is a whole lot more than you'd accept from anyone

00:52:21.869 --> 00:52:25.329
else. And it's because of that notion, you know,

00:52:25.329 --> 00:52:27.730
like, what are you here for? Why did you show

00:52:27.730 --> 00:52:30.849
up today? Well, showed up to serve my community,

00:52:30.929 --> 00:52:34.409
you know? And that's, I don't know. I don't know

00:52:34.409 --> 00:52:36.849
anybody who works the job who doesn't take that

00:52:36.849 --> 00:52:40.250
part of it very seriously. So maybe you're right.

00:52:40.289 --> 00:52:43.449
Maybe, maybe that's where, maybe we need to be

00:52:43.449 --> 00:52:47.789
the example. I think so. Well, you mentioned

00:52:47.789 --> 00:52:50.769
Ebola, so that's a good segue. Talk to me about

00:52:50.769 --> 00:52:54.750
the genus. What was the nucleus of even pursuing

00:52:54.750 --> 00:52:56.909
this story? And then let's talk about No One's

00:52:56.909 --> 00:53:03.889
Coming. So there are two guys, two brothers.

00:53:04.969 --> 00:53:07.610
Back in the early 80s, they started this very

00:53:07.610 --> 00:53:11.429
strange company. And one of them, when he was

00:53:11.429 --> 00:53:15.429
in college, worked summers on an ambulance. And

00:53:15.429 --> 00:53:17.449
somebody sent him a copy of Strangers. And he

00:53:17.449 --> 00:53:21.190
shoots me this email years ago, 2017 maybe. And

00:53:21.190 --> 00:53:23.670
he said, hey, I read this book. A friend of mine

00:53:23.670 --> 00:53:26.050
sent it to me, told me a story that he worked

00:53:26.050 --> 00:53:31.230
back in the crazy mid -70s days of EMS where

00:53:31.230 --> 00:53:33.050
they were like stealing patients from each other,

00:53:33.150 --> 00:53:37.650
all the madness that was going on, sort of mother

00:53:37.650 --> 00:53:41.449
jokes and speed world. And we just kept in contact

00:53:41.449 --> 00:53:43.969
because he – You know, the company that he and

00:53:43.969 --> 00:53:48.530
his brother started is, it's a, I mean, it sounds,

00:53:48.650 --> 00:53:51.150
if I say aviation company, what goes to your

00:53:51.150 --> 00:53:55.809
mind is like Boeing. But this is a company that

00:53:55.809 --> 00:54:00.469
it's very, very, very small. It's in the hinterlands

00:54:00.469 --> 00:54:05.110
of North Georgia. And they have stayed alive

00:54:05.110 --> 00:54:07.650
by specializing in doing the things that nobody

00:54:07.650 --> 00:54:11.079
else will do. In aviation, what that means is

00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:14.159
flying things nobody else wants to fly. That

00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:18.760
might be things that go boom, or it might be

00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:21.760
human beings that go boom. Essentially, it's

00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:25.199
explosives and infectious disease, which who

00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:27.139
the hell wants to be in a plane over the Atlantic

00:54:27.139 --> 00:54:31.559
with either a load of dynamite or somebody with

00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:36.000
SARS? That does not sound appealing to me, but

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:39.369
that's how they carve their niche. I found this

00:54:39.369 --> 00:54:43.670
intriguing. We stayed in contact and I was in

00:54:43.670 --> 00:54:45.329
Atlanta and he said, Hey, why don't you, why

00:54:45.329 --> 00:54:47.329
don't you come out and we'll show you, we'll

00:54:47.329 --> 00:54:50.650
show you what we, what we do. And I was walking

00:54:50.650 --> 00:54:54.030
around their hangers and there was this rectangle

00:54:54.030 --> 00:54:59.670
of this worn, battered, torn rectangle that was

00:54:59.670 --> 00:55:02.530
about five feet wide and eight feet long on the

00:55:02.530 --> 00:55:06.289
floor of this hangar. And I saw it and I was

00:55:06.289 --> 00:55:09.780
like, what, what is, what is that? And they sort

00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:13.880
of in passing said, yeah, well, the CDC asked

00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:18.880
us to develop this biocontainment unit that would

00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:21.980
fit inside of a jet. And we had no idea how to

00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:24.619
do it, but we had to act very quickly to develop

00:55:24.619 --> 00:55:26.780
this technology. And the first thing our engineers

00:55:26.780 --> 00:55:30.559
did was they paced out exactly how little room

00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.860
they had to work with on the floor of a hangar.

00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:34.820
And they did it with duct tape and that's it

00:55:34.820 --> 00:55:37.699
right there. And when he said that, what came

00:55:37.699 --> 00:55:40.320
to my mind is that scene in Apollo 13 where that

00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:43.440
engineer says, we've got to fit this, and it's

00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:47.679
round and small, into this, and it's huge and

00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:49.780
square, using nothing but this. And it's just

00:55:49.780 --> 00:55:52.480
a pile of junk on a table. And we've got two

00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.480
hours to do it, get started. That's how that

00:55:55.480 --> 00:55:59.320
moment felt of an engineer laying duct tape on

00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:01.579
the floor of a hangar to pace out how little

00:56:01.579 --> 00:56:06.420
room he had in which to devise. a containment

00:56:06.420 --> 00:56:09.719
system that could hold the scariest diseases

00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:15.059
on earth for 10, 12, 24 hours of airborne flight.

00:56:15.940 --> 00:56:19.599
And I knew that they had been involved in Ebola

00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:21.960
evacuations. I didn't realize that they were

00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:26.280
the Ebola evacuations, that they were it. But

00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.880
that was the germ. The minute I heard that, I

00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:31.829
said, right, like. I just knew instinctively.

00:56:31.929 --> 00:56:33.730
I mean, you're a writer, like, you know, instinctively

00:56:33.730 --> 00:56:37.030
when you're sitting on a story and that one scene,

00:56:37.170 --> 00:56:40.670
the desperation of, you know, a handful of people

00:56:40.670 --> 00:56:44.190
in a hangar pacing out how little room they have

00:56:44.190 --> 00:56:49.110
to devise a piece of never before seen technology.

00:56:49.530 --> 00:56:51.949
But, you know, everything else around the story

00:56:51.949 --> 00:56:53.789
is going to be fascinating. So that was the germ

00:56:53.789 --> 00:56:57.389
right there. So talk to me about the story then.

00:56:57.469 --> 00:57:00.670
What is the mission that you write about in the

00:57:00.670 --> 00:57:04.590
book? So in the summer of 2014, July of 2014,

00:57:04.869 --> 00:57:06.789
this guy by the name of Dent Thompson, one of

00:57:06.789 --> 00:57:09.429
the two brothers, Mark and Dent are the guys

00:57:09.429 --> 00:57:11.010
who started this company called Phoenix Air.

00:57:11.630 --> 00:57:14.070
Dent Thompson is sitting on his deck. He's on

00:57:14.070 --> 00:57:17.150
vacation. It's late afternoon, like 3 .30, 4

00:57:17.150 --> 00:57:19.789
o 'clock. He's got a beer and a magazine. He

00:57:19.789 --> 00:57:23.469
walks outside. He sits down in a chair. He had

00:57:23.469 --> 00:57:27.000
this. place in the Blue Ridge Mountains. When

00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:28.860
you sit out of his deck, you could see for like

00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:32.460
100 miles. His parents had built it. Nothing

00:57:32.460 --> 00:57:35.599
but trees and hills, you know, full expanse of

00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:40.019
the Tennessee Divide. And totally relaxed, his

00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:43.159
phone rings. He looks down. It's the Washington,

00:57:43.300 --> 00:57:47.079
D .C. area code. And he answers. And the voice

00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:51.780
on the other end of the phone says to him, This

00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:53.559
is William Walters from the State Department.

00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.559
There are Americans. We're not sure how many.

00:57:57.059 --> 00:57:59.480
Dying of Ebola in Africa. We're not exactly sure

00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:03.239
where. We have tried every other means possible

00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:07.880
to get them home and failed. You are their last

00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:11.539
option. You have about five minutes to decide

00:58:11.539 --> 00:58:14.900
if you'll do this. I'll call you back. Click.

00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:22.900
And that is how their story begins. Not knowing

00:58:22.900 --> 00:58:25.059
a damn thing about Ebola, not knowing if they

00:58:25.059 --> 00:58:26.880
want to do this, if they should do this, if they

00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:30.340
possibly can do this. But then also knowing that

00:58:30.340 --> 00:58:32.980
Ebola kills in about 10 days and the people dying

00:58:32.980 --> 00:58:35.019
were already several days into this 10 day window.

00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:36.500
So if they were going to say yes, I had to say

00:58:36.500 --> 00:58:40.099
yes now. And so the story is the next few days

00:58:40.099 --> 00:58:43.519
following that phone call and this insane rescue

00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:46.699
mission. to get these doctors home and to try

00:58:46.699 --> 00:58:49.019
to save their lives in the midst of the deadliest

00:58:49.019 --> 00:58:53.559
Ebola outbreak in world history. So talk to me

00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:55.340
about who the doctors were and what they were

00:58:55.340 --> 00:59:00.659
doing over there in the first place. So back

00:59:00.659 --> 00:59:04.980
up really quickly, 1976, we discover Ebola. It

00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:10.380
appears twice, almost simultaneously, once in

00:59:10.380 --> 00:59:15.309
Sudan, another in... At that time, you know,

00:59:15.309 --> 00:59:18.630
just Congo, now Democratic Republic of Congo.

00:59:20.650 --> 00:59:23.409
And then disappears, basically runs through its

00:59:23.409 --> 00:59:26.030
number of available hosts and goes back underground.

00:59:26.389 --> 00:59:30.269
By the time scientists arrive, there's very little

00:59:30.269 --> 00:59:32.909
for them to study. This pattern continues for

00:59:32.909 --> 00:59:36.829
the next couple of decades. By 2014, we know

00:59:36.829 --> 00:59:40.369
almost nothing about Ebola. We know that it's

00:59:40.369 --> 00:59:43.679
a hemorrhagic fever. We know that we have some

00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:45.599
suspicions about maybe where it comes from. We

00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:47.500
don't know why it disappears. We don't know why

00:59:47.500 --> 00:59:50.340
it necessarily comes back. Sometimes it will

00:59:50.340 --> 00:59:52.739
be gone for a week and appear in another country.

00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:54.760
Other times it will be gone for a year without

00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:58.980
coming back. Mortality rates are all over the

00:59:58.980 --> 01:00:03.760
place, sometimes 40%, sometimes 90%. So this

01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:09.219
virus, it's kind of like a serial killer. When

01:00:09.219 --> 01:00:12.500
it's not killing, it is gone. And then all of

01:00:12.500 --> 01:00:14.440
a sudden it reemerges and immediately starts

01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:16.760
ravaging the population. The one thing they thought

01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:19.139
they understood, they didn't have a treatment,

01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:23.079
no vaccine, no cure. The one thing they thought

01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:25.699
they understood was that wherever it came from,

01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:30.179
it was clearly, its vector only lived in incredibly

01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:32.420
remote places. It was not thought that it could

01:00:32.420 --> 01:00:38.920
appear in a highly developed area. So December

01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:45.039
2013. a child gets it in West Africa, in Sierra

01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:49.639
Leone, or excuse me, in Guinea, that kid becomes

01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:52.860
essentially patient zero. The virus very quickly

01:00:52.860 --> 01:00:57.739
spreads to three different countries. So almost

01:00:57.739 --> 01:01:02.480
out of nowhere, Sierra Leone, Guinea, and Liberia

01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:05.340
are completely overrun with this virus. Healthcare

01:01:05.340 --> 01:01:07.719
systems in all three countries collapse. There

01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:09.960
are local doctors and local nurses who are fighting,

01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:13.039
but they're totally outmatched. Ebola is referred

01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:16.239
to as a provider's disease because everything

01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:18.480
that comes out of your body and everything comes

01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:22.159
out of your body, blood, sweat, vomit, diarrhea,

01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:25.619
everything, and it is a constant flow of fluids.

01:01:25.739 --> 01:01:28.300
Those are all incredibly, incredibly, incredibly

01:01:28.300 --> 01:01:32.960
infectious. It takes the tiniest, you know, tiniest

01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:36.219
part per million in order to infect somebody.

01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:39.280
And unfortunately, every drop of blood has millions

01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:42.940
of parts per million. Each drop is overloaded

01:01:42.940 --> 01:01:46.519
with this virus. So it takes almost nothing,

01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:50.239
but it always arrives with everything. So those

01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:54.320
doctors are getting sick. The world, governments,

01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:58.460
generally speaking, militaries, nobody's really

01:01:58.460 --> 01:02:00.760
taking note, not in Africa, not in Europe, not

01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:04.860
in the US. Not in Asia. So a couple volunteer

01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:07.679
organizations, Doctors Without Borders and an

01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:09.760
organization called Samaritan's Purse are fighting

01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:13.639
it. Two organizations in three countries. In

01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:17.320
Liberia, Monrovia is the capital, a million people.

01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:20.699
Samaritan's Purse is manning the last hospital

01:02:20.699 --> 01:02:23.320
in that city. City of one million people, the

01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:26.500
last hospital. And they are doing it with less

01:02:26.500 --> 01:02:30.219
than a dozen doctors, most of them young. um

01:02:30.219 --> 01:02:33.239
experienced with viruses but none of them have

01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:38.119
ever worked with ebola the city is you know it

01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:42.760
is close to complete collapse uh fear chaos violence

01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:44.780
all the things that happen with every outbreak

01:02:44.780 --> 01:02:48.480
are happening um and more and more and more patients

01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:50.900
are showing up and there's only a couple doctors

01:02:50.900 --> 01:02:53.559
in a very small treatment area to treat them

01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:56.389
so they're totally overrun and that's That's

01:02:56.389 --> 01:02:59.070
who these, so the two Americans who got sick,

01:02:59.130 --> 01:03:01.650
one's a physician named Kent Brantley. One was

01:03:01.650 --> 01:03:06.449
just a volunteer named Nancy Wrightbow. But they,

01:03:06.610 --> 01:03:08.809
you know, neither one of them were epidemiologists.

01:03:08.829 --> 01:03:10.489
Neither one of them were experienced in this.

01:03:11.150 --> 01:03:14.889
But they were there when this outbreak hit and

01:03:14.889 --> 01:03:18.150
they stayed to try to, you know, they were the

01:03:18.150 --> 01:03:21.030
finger in the dam as the dam was collapsing around

01:03:21.030 --> 01:03:26.619
them and they got sick. As we sit here now in

01:03:26.619 --> 01:03:29.539
2026, do they know now what the origin of Ebola

01:03:29.539 --> 01:03:33.579
was? Was it coming from other animals or was

01:03:33.579 --> 01:03:39.400
it coming from some sort of untreated human waste?

01:03:39.539 --> 01:03:40.840
I mean, some of the other places that we know

01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:44.159
diseases originally sprouted from? Yeah, it comes

01:03:44.159 --> 01:03:49.760
from animals. There's a bat that's sort of widely

01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:55.239
considered kind of the main culprit. You can,

01:03:55.420 --> 01:03:59.579
you know, maybe you eat the bat, you eat something

01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:02.139
that ate the bat, you ate a piece of fruit that

01:04:02.139 --> 01:04:06.219
the bat either bit or pooped on, and you get

01:04:06.219 --> 01:04:10.440
it. But where did that bat, where did the bat

01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.019
get it from? Why don't all the bats have it?

01:04:13.099 --> 01:04:18.519
Why is it that when this virus goes away, we

01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:20.679
don't, we can't find more bats with it? You know,

01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:22.920
and then why does it come back to these bats?

01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:26.480
There are certain mysteries that attend to this.

01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:30.840
We certainly know a lot more now. We've developed

01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:34.960
from the 2014 outbreak, we have developed medicines

01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:38.960
to try to combat it. But really, this isn't a

01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:43.340
virus that requires ICU care. It requires really

01:04:43.340 --> 01:04:48.460
good supportive care, which in a country where

01:04:48.460 --> 01:04:55.090
you have The doctor to resident ratio is really,

01:04:55.210 --> 01:04:59.849
really, really low. And, you know, who's medical

01:04:59.849 --> 01:05:02.489
in a country where the medical system is not

01:05:02.489 --> 01:05:08.949
terribly robust. You know, that sort of ICU care

01:05:08.949 --> 01:05:12.210
is just not going to be available. And so, you

01:05:12.210 --> 01:05:13.710
know, if you talk to the people who go to these

01:05:13.710 --> 01:05:15.170
places, what they will all tell you is that,

01:05:15.210 --> 01:05:17.070
you know, in a perfect world, we'd be capacity

01:05:17.070 --> 01:05:19.230
building in a perfect world. We'd be bringing,

01:05:19.329 --> 01:05:23.440
you know. the people living in this country up

01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:26.159
to speed with us we would you know like their

01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:29.539
infrastructure would be building itself and they

01:05:29.539 --> 01:05:31.179
would be creating a system in which they can

01:05:31.179 --> 01:05:35.159
combat it absent that um then the rest of the

01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:37.559
world is going to have to help you know and this

01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:39.619
was you know sort of one of those examples of

01:05:39.619 --> 01:05:43.579
we all waited far too long to step in and i think

01:05:43.579 --> 01:05:45.460
maybe the presumption was well it's happening

01:05:45.460 --> 01:05:48.219
there it's not going to get here but you know

01:05:48.219 --> 01:05:49.800
each of these three countries has an international

01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:52.860
airport And those planes are taking off every

01:05:52.860 --> 01:05:55.219
day. And every country on earth has an international

01:05:55.219 --> 01:05:57.460
airport. And those planes are taking off every

01:05:57.460 --> 01:06:00.820
day. And if you think that someone's sick 5 ,000

01:06:00.820 --> 01:06:03.360
miles away from you does not mean that there

01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:06.599
won't be, in just a few hours, someone sick standing

01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.239
right next to you, then maybe you haven't noticed

01:06:09.239 --> 01:06:16.119
how air travel works. But, you know, it was sort

01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:18.539
of, in a lot of ways, it was the perfect storm.

01:06:18.739 --> 01:06:21.389
But we've learned some things from it. We've

01:06:21.389 --> 01:06:22.789
gotten a little bit better. I mean, that was,

01:06:22.809 --> 01:06:24.550
you know, one of the things that was helpful

01:06:24.550 --> 01:06:26.630
was when these Americans came back, the hospital

01:06:26.630 --> 01:06:30.110
that treated them was able to draw labs and able

01:06:30.110 --> 01:06:31.550
to look at what was going on with them. And they

01:06:31.550 --> 01:06:34.449
said, OK, all right, we can see what helps. And

01:06:34.449 --> 01:06:36.389
so they were calling their counterparts in Africa

01:06:36.389 --> 01:06:38.289
and saying, try this. And they would say, well,

01:06:38.329 --> 01:06:40.170
you sure we can give that? We don't we don't

01:06:40.170 --> 01:06:41.730
know what their labs work and what their labs

01:06:41.730 --> 01:06:43.269
look like. And the doctors saying, trust me,

01:06:43.309 --> 01:06:45.869
you know, like their labs are awful. Give this

01:06:45.869 --> 01:06:49.829
and it will be helpful. We learned a lot, but

01:06:49.829 --> 01:06:54.269
at the cost of many, many lives. So you mentioned

01:06:54.269 --> 01:06:56.849
about this one organization being the kind of

01:06:56.849 --> 01:07:00.449
Hail Mary when it came to aviation. What was

01:07:00.449 --> 01:07:03.269
stopping other airlines from helping or military

01:07:03.269 --> 01:07:08.670
or other organizations prior to that? For whatever

01:07:08.670 --> 01:07:12.710
reason, maybe it's no great mystery, militaries

01:07:12.710 --> 01:07:14.670
are not interested in getting involved in infectious

01:07:14.670 --> 01:07:18.579
disease. To this day. This company is kind of

01:07:18.579 --> 01:07:24.119
really the only answer when it comes to transporting

01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:26.760
infectious disease by plane. Governments are

01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:29.039
not horribly excited about the idea of it. The

01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:33.539
WHO, who since they have people all over the

01:07:33.539 --> 01:07:38.559
world, they don't do it. The CDC, the reason

01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:40.360
that this technology exists is because the CDC

01:07:40.360 --> 01:07:43.550
paid... this company, Phoenix Air, to create

01:07:43.550 --> 01:07:44.889
this technology so that they wouldn't have to

01:07:44.889 --> 01:07:47.210
do it. Governments don't really want to be in

01:07:47.210 --> 01:07:50.469
the business of driving people, driving around

01:07:50.469 --> 01:07:53.849
the world with SARS or measles or H1N1. That's

01:07:53.849 --> 01:07:57.550
just not what they want to be doing. And, you

01:07:57.550 --> 01:08:00.730
know, so it falls to, you know, it falls to someone

01:08:00.730 --> 01:08:02.630
like this, someone who says, well, I've got this

01:08:02.630 --> 01:08:05.869
little company and how do I compete with much

01:08:05.869 --> 01:08:09.739
larger much richer companies? Well, I do things

01:08:09.739 --> 01:08:11.760
that they're not willing to do. I fly dynamite.

01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:15.679
I fly warheads. I fly batches of grenades. I

01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:20.020
fly anything that will explode. And then I move

01:08:20.020 --> 01:08:22.659
into the medical field and I fly the thing that

01:08:22.659 --> 01:08:24.520
nobody else wants to fly, which is, of course,

01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:28.760
people with something catching. So that was how

01:08:28.760 --> 01:08:33.020
they did it. But it was because nobody else wanted

01:08:33.020 --> 01:08:36.130
to do it. that they were able to you know make

01:08:36.130 --> 01:08:37.689
this mark and that they happen to be in this

01:08:37.689 --> 01:08:40.750
position to do this you know once the flights

01:08:40.750 --> 01:08:42.890
are announced and everybody knows like okay this

01:08:42.890 --> 01:08:46.489
is going to happen this is the thing um it immediately

01:08:46.489 --> 01:08:49.789
turns into a huge problem i mean at one point

01:08:49.789 --> 01:08:52.800
the state of maine threatens to arrest a state

01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:54.739
department official for assisting with the flights.

01:08:55.380 --> 01:08:58.199
The FBI is involved and they actually have helicopters

01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:00.939
and vans following the ambulance carrying the

01:09:00.939 --> 01:09:03.579
first patient through the city of Atlanta because

01:09:03.579 --> 01:09:05.100
the fear was that someone, I mean, if you think

01:09:05.100 --> 01:09:08.039
about this for a moment, the fear was that somebody

01:09:08.039 --> 01:09:12.340
may kidnap this patient and try to weaponize

01:09:12.340 --> 01:09:16.760
his body. And that was a legitimate fear. There

01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:18.680
were at that hospital, Emory University Hospital,

01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:21.699
where they were being treated. had rings of protesters

01:09:21.699 --> 01:09:24.039
around it. They had to set up a separate post

01:09:24.039 --> 01:09:27.119
office because they were getting so many unmarked

01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:29.060
packages that arrived and nobody knew if any

01:09:29.060 --> 01:09:30.479
of these things were going to be bombed. So each

01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:34.159
of these packages had to be screened. There were

01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:36.800
letters coming in. There were political figures

01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:38.779
who were saying like, well, hold on, you can't

01:09:38.779 --> 01:09:41.680
do this because if you treat Ebola and then you

01:09:41.680 --> 01:09:43.899
wash your hands of Ebola blood, that blood is

01:09:43.899 --> 01:09:46.220
going to go down the sink. And then that is going

01:09:46.220 --> 01:09:48.060
to go into the drains and that's going to go

01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:50.319
into the sewers and that's going to hit rats.

01:09:50.380 --> 01:09:51.939
And your rats are going to have Ebola and rats

01:09:51.939 --> 01:09:53.479
are going to come charging out of the streets

01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:54.880
with Ebola. And you're going to have this huge.

01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:58.199
I mean, and, you know, people are angry that

01:09:58.199 --> 01:10:00.439
we're bringing them back. People are, you know,

01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:02.319
some cases violently angry that we're bringing

01:10:02.319 --> 01:10:04.260
them back. There are government agencies trying

01:10:04.260 --> 01:10:06.100
to stop this from happening. There are private

01:10:06.100 --> 01:10:07.640
citizens trying to stop this from happening.

01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:11.659
The fear that that surrounded this was tremendous.

01:10:11.699 --> 01:10:14.329
You know, it's like that scene. In Jaws, where

01:10:14.329 --> 01:10:17.069
the mayor says, if you yell Barracuda, people

01:10:17.069 --> 01:10:20.170
will say, huh? But if you yell shark, everybody

01:10:20.170 --> 01:10:22.350
will panic. And it's the same way. If you yell

01:10:22.350 --> 01:10:25.630
Marburg, nobody's going to say anything. But

01:10:25.630 --> 01:10:28.850
if you yell Ebola, now you've got everybody's

01:10:28.850 --> 01:10:32.810
attention. And, you know, this company, I mean,

01:10:32.850 --> 01:10:34.810
these guys, what makes them so great is this

01:10:34.810 --> 01:10:39.810
sort of group of cowboys who are just willing.

01:10:40.489 --> 01:10:43.069
And in many cases, eager to do things that nobody

01:10:43.069 --> 01:10:45.250
else wants to do. And so when a call comes in

01:10:45.250 --> 01:10:48.409
to, you know, flying to Libya to pick up Muammar

01:10:48.409 --> 01:10:53.250
Gaddafi's suitcase nuke or to fly an Ebola patient,

01:10:53.390 --> 01:10:56.710
the response is always, yep, I'd like to do that.

01:10:57.310 --> 01:11:01.909
You know, hey, thank God we have them. But yeah,

01:11:01.989 --> 01:11:03.710
they're just sort of crazy guys who are always

01:11:03.710 --> 01:11:07.430
willing to take on this impossible challenge.

01:11:10.160 --> 01:11:12.460
I think it was when I was at Orange County. I

01:11:12.460 --> 01:11:14.500
remember either one or two departments, I was

01:11:14.500 --> 01:11:19.220
issued a class. It was a class B suit for Ebola

01:11:19.220 --> 01:11:20.779
that we carried around. It was like a little

01:11:20.779 --> 01:11:23.279
messenger bag, a little triangle one. Luckily,

01:11:23.359 --> 01:11:25.939
I never had to deploy it. But I remember back

01:11:25.939 --> 01:11:27.819
then looking it up and kind of what we were talking

01:11:27.819 --> 01:11:30.640
about with COVID before. It seemed to be more

01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:33.279
dangerous, again, to the immunocompromised that

01:11:33.279 --> 01:11:36.020
you would see maybe in places that are malnourished,

01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:40.010
that kind of thing. truth or is that a mythology

01:11:40.010 --> 01:11:43.390
around around the danger of ebola in you know

01:11:43.390 --> 01:11:48.109
for example a developed city in the u .s the

01:11:48.109 --> 01:11:51.210
chances of catching it are huge if you're exposed

01:11:51.210 --> 01:11:52.970
to it look at the two nurses in dallas if you

01:11:52.970 --> 01:11:56.369
remember a guy flew in during this outbreak from

01:11:56.369 --> 01:11:58.729
west africa he had it did not realize he had

01:11:58.729 --> 01:12:00.890
it till he got to dallas was treated at a hospital

01:12:00.890 --> 01:12:04.010
the hospital was not prepared to handle it and

01:12:04.010 --> 01:12:07.899
two of the nurses treating him got sick both

01:12:07.899 --> 01:12:12.859
of those nurses lived. And again, because aggressive

01:12:12.859 --> 01:12:18.159
supportive care is what saves these people. You're

01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:22.840
talking about a virus that either sort of simultaneously

01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:27.979
causes bleeding and hypercoagulation, massive

01:12:27.979 --> 01:12:31.479
amounts of fluid loss. So you have to monitor

01:12:31.479 --> 01:12:35.180
electrolytes. You got to replace that fluid.

01:12:35.500 --> 01:12:38.630
You got to deal with either Tons of clots or

01:12:38.630 --> 01:12:42.130
tons of bleeding. And you've got to reduce the

01:12:42.130 --> 01:12:44.409
oxygen demand. These are things that, you know,

01:12:44.409 --> 01:12:47.010
a modern health care system is equipped to deal

01:12:47.010 --> 01:12:49.750
with. But you have very little time before these

01:12:49.750 --> 01:12:52.149
people begin to slip toward organ failure. It

01:12:52.149 --> 01:12:53.949
happens, you know, it kills very, very quickly.

01:12:55.069 --> 01:12:57.189
So, you know, you've only got a couple of days

01:12:57.189 --> 01:13:00.170
to sort of bring somebody back from the brink

01:13:00.170 --> 01:13:04.090
with supportive care. So in a place where that

01:13:04.090 --> 01:13:07.569
just doesn't exist. it becomes a crapshoot and

01:13:07.569 --> 01:13:09.949
it becomes a thing where you have an 80 % mortality

01:13:09.949 --> 01:13:11.850
rate, which if you think about that for a moment,

01:13:11.970 --> 01:13:15.590
you live in a street with 10 people, a virus

01:13:15.590 --> 01:13:20.390
kills eight of them. I mean, that is terrifying.

01:13:21.970 --> 01:13:24.470
And that's the thing that people are facing in

01:13:24.470 --> 01:13:27.810
these three countries. Well, the irony is that's

01:13:27.810 --> 01:13:30.449
the same ratio almost that obesity kills in America

01:13:30.449 --> 01:13:34.579
when no one even raises an eyebrow on that. i

01:13:34.579 --> 01:13:36.579
mean the premature deaths we have from that but

01:13:36.579 --> 01:13:40.560
hey yeah well what about i mean you know you

01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:42.779
mentioned two dallas two nurses in dallas yet

01:13:42.779 --> 01:13:44.720
we have all these thousands thousands and thousands

01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:47.380
of flights around the world what was it that

01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:50.699
curbed that epidemic and then you know the spread

01:13:50.699 --> 01:13:53.479
whether it was within africa itself or even overseas

01:13:53.479 --> 01:14:02.630
so these two one by one The technology that Phoenix

01:14:02.630 --> 01:14:04.909
Air had can only transport one person at a time.

01:14:04.989 --> 01:14:09.390
So the rescue becomes this very complicated game

01:14:09.390 --> 01:14:15.250
of international telephone. But within a couple

01:14:15.250 --> 01:14:20.630
of weeks, they are saved. And the doctor, Kent

01:14:20.630 --> 01:14:24.329
Brantley, went and testified before Congress.

01:14:24.630 --> 01:14:29.270
And he said he basically shamed them. He said,

01:14:29.369 --> 01:14:33.970
you have two volunteer aid organizations that

01:14:33.970 --> 01:14:36.489
are the entirety of the world's Ebola response

01:14:36.489 --> 01:14:40.149
while three nations are dying. You are all sitting

01:14:40.149 --> 01:14:43.170
back and you are allowing the volunteers from

01:14:43.170 --> 01:14:45.329
two different organizations to do your work for

01:14:45.329 --> 01:14:49.210
you. Around this time, a man boarded a plane

01:14:49.210 --> 01:14:53.010
in Monrovia. He flew into Nairobi, the most populous

01:14:53.010 --> 01:14:57.170
city in Africa. And he had Ebola. And what was

01:14:57.170 --> 01:15:01.260
lucky. was that you know that country um he flies

01:15:01.260 --> 01:15:06.720
into kenya they they had um recently done a bunch

01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:09.359
of polio eradication work and so they had this

01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:12.720
really good contact tracing network and they

01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:15.340
put it into use and they were able to trace his

01:15:15.340 --> 01:15:18.140
contacts but there were still a number of people

01:15:18.140 --> 01:15:20.960
who died um dozens got sick but only a couple

01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:23.460
died it could have been significantly worse if

01:15:23.460 --> 01:15:28.220
that had landed and they had not been ready to

01:15:28.220 --> 01:15:30.600
use it i mean just i mean think for a moment

01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:33.300
a city of nearly 30 million people what a virus

01:15:33.300 --> 01:15:35.880
like that would do i mean it would just be it'd

01:15:35.880 --> 01:15:42.539
be catastrophic um and i it was it was this you

01:15:42.539 --> 01:15:45.100
know it was these americans coming home it was

01:15:45.100 --> 01:15:48.260
the world seeing it was a the the world's foremost

01:15:48.260 --> 01:15:53.079
expert um was a uh was a doctor from sierra leone

01:15:53.079 --> 01:15:56.510
by the last name of khan who died And so, you

01:15:56.510 --> 01:15:59.869
know, the world's experts were watching people

01:15:59.869 --> 01:16:02.029
either, you know, doctors either get rescued

01:16:02.029 --> 01:16:05.390
or killed from Ebola, from trying to stop Ebola

01:16:05.390 --> 01:16:07.810
and realizing, OK, we're going to have to do

01:16:07.810 --> 01:16:10.310
something. And then sort of being, you know,

01:16:10.329 --> 01:16:13.569
basically being shamed and chastised for a slow

01:16:13.569 --> 01:16:16.390
effort. They got involved. And then so the world

01:16:16.390 --> 01:16:19.890
began sending people over to try to fight it.

01:16:19.970 --> 01:16:23.199
And, you know, it was that effort. of bringing

01:16:23.199 --> 01:16:25.119
in supplies bringing in all the things you would

01:16:25.119 --> 01:16:28.420
need for aggressive supportive care and then

01:16:28.420 --> 01:16:32.239
you know contact tracing and you know all the

01:16:32.239 --> 01:16:34.819
all stuff we learned in or that we later use

01:16:34.819 --> 01:16:37.000
in covet of you know like trying to keep people

01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:38.899
separated and you know what what happens when

01:16:38.899 --> 01:16:40.460
someone gets sick they want to go home and when

01:16:40.460 --> 01:16:41.659
you go home and you're sick what happens your

01:16:41.659 --> 01:16:43.579
family comes to you and help you so if you live

01:16:43.579 --> 01:16:46.359
in a house with three generations living in that

01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:49.479
house all those people are going to get sick

01:16:49.479 --> 01:16:51.159
because you're sick and they're trying to help

01:16:51.159 --> 01:16:55.899
you and so Trying to prevent that from happening,

01:16:56.140 --> 01:17:00.520
keep the sick separated from the healthy, and

01:17:00.520 --> 01:17:03.460
supporting and caring for the people once they

01:17:03.460 --> 01:17:07.260
got it. It eventually works, but it took a year

01:17:07.260 --> 01:17:12.239
to bring the whole thing to a close. We were

01:17:12.239 --> 01:17:14.659
talking about the Man of Freedom House and the

01:17:14.659 --> 01:17:18.500
lack of acknowledgement of their service. What

01:17:18.500 --> 01:17:21.770
about... this organization, this crew and what

01:17:21.770 --> 01:17:29.850
they did, how much exposure did it get? It's

01:17:29.850 --> 01:17:35.989
funny. They, they're, you know, they're I think

01:17:35.989 --> 01:17:39.350
they were quite snake bitten because when it

01:17:39.350 --> 01:17:43.149
first happened, one, when their name got released

01:17:43.149 --> 01:17:44.510
to the public, they were not ready for that.

01:17:44.920 --> 01:17:46.979
And so suddenly their offices are surrounded

01:17:46.979 --> 01:17:49.859
by news cameras. Two, you know, as I said, it

01:17:49.859 --> 01:17:53.520
was a really angry response. And I think they

01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:55.319
did their best to try to hide and say, well,

01:17:55.380 --> 01:17:57.500
you know, like, look, we're just trying to help

01:17:57.500 --> 01:17:59.039
here, man. Like, what are we supposed to do?

01:18:00.380 --> 01:18:03.260
And, you know, they were also terrified. Their

01:18:03.260 --> 01:18:08.079
employees were flying without knowing anything

01:18:08.079 --> 01:18:11.500
about Ebola repeatedly into a hot zone to get.

01:18:11.880 --> 01:18:14.800
to rescue people. There was a real fear that,

01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:17.220
will they get sick? Will they make us sick? Will

01:18:17.220 --> 01:18:19.920
we make a mistake and get somebody else sick?

01:18:20.060 --> 01:18:22.100
When you talk to the doctors and nurses involved

01:18:22.100 --> 01:18:24.619
in it, they will tell you that their number one

01:18:24.619 --> 01:18:28.979
fear was contracting Ebola and then giving it

01:18:28.979 --> 01:18:33.760
to somebody else. So they're sort of really inundated

01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:40.640
with external and internal fear. And I think

01:18:40.640 --> 01:18:42.640
they did their best to try to keep their heads

01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:44.979
down. They wound up giving a press conference

01:18:44.979 --> 01:18:48.279
just to sort of get the news off their back a

01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:50.539
little bit. But, you know, by that point, the

01:18:50.539 --> 01:18:53.640
world had sort of cued into, oh, there's this

01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:57.840
thing going on. And, you know, the attention

01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:00.979
was pretty nonstop and pretty glaring. Although,

01:19:01.079 --> 01:19:04.680
you know, and rightly, a lot of the attention.

01:19:05.449 --> 01:19:08.289
went to the people who were fighting it in Africa.

01:19:08.449 --> 01:19:12.430
If you remember, Time named their people of the

01:19:12.430 --> 01:19:16.350
year the doctors who were fighting Ebola. So

01:19:16.350 --> 01:19:20.829
the African doctors, African nurses, foreign

01:19:20.829 --> 01:19:25.470
doctors and nurses, Kent Brantley included among

01:19:25.470 --> 01:19:30.189
them. So the world sort of paid a bit more attention

01:19:30.189 --> 01:19:32.369
to the people who were on the ground in Africa

01:19:32.369 --> 01:19:35.819
fighting the virus. And then finally, and then

01:19:35.819 --> 01:19:37.840
we'll go to where people can find the book. What

01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:40.439
impact, so you're bringing these doctors back,

01:19:40.619 --> 01:19:43.399
you're able to draw bloods, now you can create

01:19:43.399 --> 01:19:45.680
a treatment plan, understanding contact tracing.

01:19:46.500 --> 01:19:49.579
What impact did that have back at ground zero

01:19:49.579 --> 01:19:53.640
again on the people in Africa themselves? Huge.

01:19:53.659 --> 01:19:55.420
I mean, one, it's telling people that, hey, the

01:19:55.420 --> 01:20:00.340
world is paying attention. Two, let's just say

01:20:00.340 --> 01:20:03.529
you live in some place where... wherever, you

01:20:03.529 --> 01:20:05.689
know, wherever your hometown is, there's an outbreak

01:20:05.689 --> 01:20:09.670
there and people come to help and the people

01:20:09.670 --> 01:20:12.569
who come immediately get sick. Among the first

01:20:12.569 --> 01:20:14.789
things that would go through your mind is, well,

01:20:14.789 --> 01:20:17.649
we needed them and they're sick, so they're no

01:20:17.649 --> 01:20:20.270
longer being helpful, but will anybody else come

01:20:20.270 --> 01:20:23.050
behind them? Because the last group of volunteers

01:20:23.050 --> 01:20:26.050
all got sick. So it was real concern that if

01:20:26.050 --> 01:20:29.050
you just allow the people coming in to help to

01:20:29.050 --> 01:20:31.409
die. then nobody else is going to come in to

01:20:31.409 --> 01:20:34.930
help. And this region is in real trouble. So

01:20:34.930 --> 01:20:38.229
I think some of it was a sense of hope that the

01:20:38.229 --> 01:20:42.869
world was both awakening to their plight, but

01:20:42.869 --> 01:20:46.210
also was dedicated to doing their best to keep

01:20:46.210 --> 01:20:49.250
doctors safe, both African and foreign doctors.

01:20:50.970 --> 01:20:55.590
But, you know, I think a hospital system with...

01:20:55.739 --> 01:20:58.239
all of the benefits of a modern icu being able

01:20:58.239 --> 01:21:01.100
to look at all the labs and and everything that's

01:21:01.100 --> 01:21:02.979
going on and every day they were having phone

01:21:02.979 --> 01:21:04.680
calls and they would call back up and they would

01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:07.119
say okay give this medicine we gave this medicine

01:21:07.119 --> 01:21:09.819
today because what we noticed was that you know

01:21:09.819 --> 01:21:13.039
the liver labs were way out of whack and so we're

01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:15.579
immediately giving this to keep that under control

01:21:15.579 --> 01:21:17.939
so even though you guys aren't able to draw those

01:21:17.939 --> 01:21:20.520
labs just go ahead and give this medication so

01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:22.439
they were sort of able to guide the treatment

01:21:22.439 --> 01:21:24.300
based on what they were seeing on the ground

01:21:24.300 --> 01:21:26.500
knowing that they were essentially serving the

01:21:26.500 --> 01:21:30.699
same patient population um and that was a big

01:21:30.699 --> 01:21:34.600
boost um to it but then again honestly so much

01:21:34.600 --> 01:21:36.680
of it came down to the world finally saying okay

01:21:36.680 --> 01:21:39.100
we'll help you know and sending sending their

01:21:39.100 --> 01:21:41.399
experts and their supplies to try to you know

01:21:41.399 --> 01:21:46.119
keep this um get this virus under control beautiful

01:21:46.119 --> 01:21:48.239
so the community that we talked about a while

01:21:48.239 --> 01:21:56.949
ago yeah who'd have thought Exactly. Crazy. And

01:21:56.949 --> 01:21:59.430
if we all roll our sleeves up and help each other,

01:21:59.449 --> 01:22:01.949
the world gets better. It's bizarre. Yeah, it

01:22:01.949 --> 01:22:06.630
is. So the book is called No One's Coming. Tell

01:22:06.630 --> 01:22:09.010
people when it's coming out and where they can

01:22:09.010 --> 01:22:12.949
find it. Publishes March 3rd. You can pre -order

01:22:12.949 --> 01:22:14.989
now, which, you know, I've been doing my best

01:22:14.989 --> 01:22:17.310
to tell people because, you know, why would anybody

01:22:17.310 --> 01:22:20.430
know the boring intricacies of publishing? But,

01:22:20.430 --> 01:22:23.630
you know, a publisher. puts their effort behind

01:22:23.630 --> 01:22:25.770
something based on the excitement it generates

01:22:25.770 --> 01:22:28.890
before it comes out. So all the help we can get

01:22:28.890 --> 01:22:33.890
now is huge. So pre -orders, you know, love them,

01:22:34.010 --> 01:22:41.350
love them. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, any independent

01:22:41.350 --> 01:22:44.270
local bookstore that you have, Books A Million,

01:22:44.510 --> 01:22:46.770
it's everywhere. It can be ordered from all those

01:22:46.770 --> 01:22:51.270
places. And if you order it now, it'll be ready

01:22:51.270 --> 01:22:54.729
for you. um on march 3rd and you know if you

01:22:54.729 --> 01:22:58.149
do it pre -order it um email me your you know

01:22:58.149 --> 01:23:01.289
your screenshot and i will use your address to

01:23:01.289 --> 01:23:04.270
ship you a sticker and a signed book plate as

01:23:04.270 --> 01:23:08.010
my thank you for for helping the effort um but

01:23:08.010 --> 01:23:09.750
i think this is an important story you know it's

01:23:09.750 --> 01:23:14.770
about a group of people um who risk their lives

01:23:14.770 --> 01:23:19.229
to save strangers you know they their philosophy

01:23:19.229 --> 01:23:22.460
long before this thing came up was that, you

01:23:22.460 --> 01:23:24.659
know, we go to difficult places to do difficult

01:23:24.659 --> 01:23:27.039
things. And they really had to put their money

01:23:27.039 --> 01:23:28.859
where their mouth is in this particular case,

01:23:28.979 --> 01:23:31.979
because unlike many other situations, they were

01:23:31.979 --> 01:23:34.039
legitimately risking their lives to do this.

01:23:34.140 --> 01:23:36.479
And we talk about it all the time in first responder

01:23:36.479 --> 01:23:39.560
and EMS community, you know, that, you know,

01:23:39.560 --> 01:23:41.739
sort of we run in while everybody else runs out.

01:23:42.060 --> 01:23:44.140
Well, this is a story of people really doing

01:23:44.140 --> 01:23:48.399
that. And in, you know, in sort of very dramatic

01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:54.159
fashion. And, you know, I think it's something

01:23:54.159 --> 01:23:56.180
that, you know, a lot of people could use. Obviously,

01:23:56.579 --> 01:23:58.800
if you're a firefighter, if you're a paramedic,

01:23:58.800 --> 01:24:02.000
you're doing that. But not everybody else is.

01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:05.220
Not everybody always sees that. And, you know,

01:24:05.220 --> 01:24:07.239
I think it's such an important story, particularly

01:24:07.239 --> 01:24:09.859
now. I think there's a lot, you know, a lot of

01:24:09.859 --> 01:24:11.659
questions about the future of public health and

01:24:11.659 --> 01:24:14.279
all these things. Preparedness is everything.

01:24:14.420 --> 01:24:17.579
You know, a virus overtakes a country because

01:24:17.579 --> 01:24:19.770
it. Because it's not prepared, whether that's

01:24:19.770 --> 01:24:22.630
its own fault or not. Somebody is there to step

01:24:22.630 --> 01:24:24.609
in to save your life because they are prepared.

01:24:25.510 --> 01:24:28.470
You know, that is the difference in, you know,

01:24:28.470 --> 01:24:30.689
in whether or not people live or dies is our

01:24:30.689 --> 01:24:33.609
preparedness. And, you know, it's really at the

01:24:33.609 --> 01:24:36.409
heart of this story is those two things, you

01:24:36.409 --> 01:24:39.270
know, a willingness to sacrifice for others and

01:24:39.270 --> 01:24:43.090
being ready for even the unlikely scenario that

01:24:43.090 --> 01:24:46.829
we all know eventually. We'll be here. Viruses

01:24:46.829 --> 01:24:49.090
do not live on a timeline. They live on a spiral.

01:24:49.729 --> 01:24:52.810
And everything that has been will be back again.

01:24:52.989 --> 01:24:55.949
And we could put our heads in the sand or we

01:24:55.949 --> 01:24:59.550
can acknowledge that it's a reality and we can

01:24:59.550 --> 01:25:02.970
try to prepare ourselves and fight back. Absolutely.

01:25:03.210 --> 01:25:06.010
And GLP -1s on their own are not the solution.

01:25:08.850 --> 01:25:11.489
They just make drug companies even more money.

01:25:11.869 --> 01:25:16.369
Yeah. Bang that drum, baby. All right. So that's

01:25:16.369 --> 01:25:19.710
your book, American Sirens and Thousand Naked

01:25:19.710 --> 01:25:21.329
Strangers. I'm sure I'm assuming you can find

01:25:21.329 --> 01:25:23.649
the same places as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

01:25:24.210 --> 01:25:26.770
Brilliant. So first of the closing questions,

01:25:26.970 --> 01:25:29.270
is there a book written by someone else that

01:25:29.270 --> 01:25:31.510
you love to recommend? It can be related to our

01:25:31.510 --> 01:25:35.210
discussion today or completely unrelated. Oh,

01:25:35.310 --> 01:25:40.630
all right. Gosh, so many. Surrounded by my books,

01:25:40.649 --> 01:25:51.630
let me think of the one. so here's one so this

01:25:51.630 --> 01:25:56.310
guy is a fantastic reporter and he wrote this

01:25:56.310 --> 01:26:01.210
book about this massive wildfire in in canada

01:26:01.210 --> 01:26:04.170
in western canada was moving so quickly that

01:26:04.170 --> 01:26:08.449
a house would go from perfectly fine to nothing

01:26:08.449 --> 01:26:11.619
but ashes in under five minutes And he talks

01:26:11.619 --> 01:26:14.439
about the conditions that created that fire.

01:26:14.899 --> 01:26:19.159
Again, a lack of preparedness in the community

01:26:19.159 --> 01:26:24.359
to deal with it and what the implications are

01:26:24.359 --> 01:26:26.939
for the future and how we need to look at these

01:26:26.939 --> 01:26:29.640
things. I mean, we just watched Los Angeles burn,

01:26:29.779 --> 01:26:36.020
huge swaths of it flooding in North Carolina.

01:26:36.239 --> 01:26:41.359
Natural disasters are... a fact of life and you

01:26:41.359 --> 01:26:43.300
know not something that we we put a lot in a

01:26:43.300 --> 01:26:46.840
lot of forethought into but this book such an

01:26:46.840 --> 01:26:49.720
incredible story of this you know just have the

01:26:49.720 --> 01:26:52.199
firefighters who are doing what they can to try

01:26:52.199 --> 01:26:55.720
to save their community um in you know impossible

01:26:55.720 --> 01:26:58.239
odds it's a it's incredible like i cannot recommend

01:26:58.239 --> 01:27:00.859
it enough and just because most people will be

01:27:00.859 --> 01:27:02.899
listening this on audio so it's called fire weather

01:27:02.899 --> 01:27:05.239
ah yeah i didn't think about that it's called

01:27:05.239 --> 01:27:09.750
fire weather uh the writer is john valiant He

01:27:09.750 --> 01:27:13.050
actually wrote this insane story about a tiger.

01:27:13.170 --> 01:27:14.550
You can also read that book. It's called The

01:27:14.550 --> 01:27:17.329
Tiger. Way more than you ever wanted to know

01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:20.329
about tigers, but it will blow your mind. Brilliant.

01:27:20.390 --> 01:27:23.189
Well, what about television documentaries or

01:27:23.189 --> 01:27:30.350
films? I recently watched a documentary about

01:27:30.350 --> 01:27:35.420
Seymour Hersh. He's the reporter who broke. The

01:27:35.420 --> 01:27:38.079
Massacre at My Lai and so many other things.

01:27:38.260 --> 01:27:41.579
He is, you know, he's sort of been a thorn in

01:27:41.579 --> 01:27:44.260
the side of practically every American administration

01:27:44.260 --> 01:27:47.079
going back to Lyndon Johnson, or I guess every

01:27:47.079 --> 01:27:48.960
American administration going back to Lyndon

01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:55.039
Johnson. And it's such a great depiction of someone

01:27:55.039 --> 01:27:58.560
who is pissed off by what he sees happening around

01:27:58.560 --> 01:28:04.029
him and keeps digging into it. But also, it shows

01:28:04.029 --> 01:28:08.729
you what we're losing. All of these local newspapers

01:28:08.729 --> 01:28:11.850
are going under. And I can tell you, as someone

01:28:11.850 --> 01:28:15.970
who used to write for a local paper, a perfect

01:28:15.970 --> 01:28:19.489
example, there was a chemical company that spilled

01:28:19.489 --> 01:28:23.770
into a creek. And so local people had me come

01:28:23.770 --> 01:28:29.310
out. And so I went. I wrote a story about it

01:28:29.310 --> 01:28:32.130
and the chemical company was not happy because

01:28:32.130 --> 01:28:35.729
they knew that I would write this story and then

01:28:35.729 --> 01:28:38.489
the larger Atlanta paper would read this story

01:28:38.489 --> 01:28:40.449
and they would do something on it. And then the

01:28:40.449 --> 01:28:45.890
TV news would see this article and they would

01:28:45.890 --> 01:28:49.350
do things on it. And the whole community would

01:28:49.350 --> 01:28:50.569
know what happened. The whole city of Atlanta

01:28:50.569 --> 01:28:53.470
would know what would happen. And they would

01:28:53.470 --> 01:28:55.930
face backlash. Politicians would have no choice

01:28:55.930 --> 01:28:57.510
because people were angry that they would have

01:28:57.510 --> 01:29:01.289
to do something. All of that, that sort of watchdog

01:29:01.289 --> 01:29:04.890
protecting you, that is gone. You know, when

01:29:04.890 --> 01:29:08.170
there's no local paper to let you know that the

01:29:08.170 --> 01:29:10.550
mayor or the city council or the county commission

01:29:10.550 --> 01:29:15.029
or a local legislator is ripping you off, they

01:29:15.029 --> 01:29:17.880
can do it with impunity. And that's what's going

01:29:17.880 --> 01:29:19.840
to be happening. That's probably what is happening.

01:29:20.520 --> 01:29:24.619
When I was researching American sirens, I relied

01:29:24.619 --> 01:29:27.739
heavily on Pittsburgh Post -Gazette. That newspaper

01:29:27.739 --> 01:29:31.359
closes operations permanently this May. That

01:29:31.359 --> 01:29:34.600
will be gone. That record of modern history will

01:29:34.600 --> 01:29:38.039
disappear. And, you know, there's a ton of mistrust

01:29:38.039 --> 01:29:40.880
in the media. I think a lot of it misplaced.

01:29:40.880 --> 01:29:45.260
But, you know, that is who lets you know that

01:29:45.260 --> 01:29:49.359
you're mayor. is ripping you off. And if you

01:29:49.359 --> 01:29:52.380
think, we all know politicians are dirty. The

01:29:52.380 --> 01:29:54.819
only thing that has ever kept them in check is

01:29:54.819 --> 01:29:58.180
the fear of being outed. There's nothing to out

01:29:58.180 --> 01:30:01.380
them now. So nothing will keep them in check.

01:30:01.479 --> 01:30:04.420
To me, that is a very concerning development

01:30:04.420 --> 01:30:08.460
for the future. So the documentary about Seymour

01:30:08.460 --> 01:30:12.020
Hersh was both incredibly enlightening, but also

01:30:12.020 --> 01:30:14.479
made me a little nervous because... Who's going

01:30:14.479 --> 01:30:16.380
to be out there watching out for the rest of

01:30:16.380 --> 01:30:20.579
us going forward? I don't know. I interviewed

01:30:20.579 --> 01:30:25.159
a reporter, Larry Doyle, who was a journalist

01:30:25.159 --> 01:30:28.159
back in the heyday. So for example, the level

01:30:28.159 --> 01:30:30.600
of trust that he had, he was the first person

01:30:30.600 --> 01:30:32.960
to interview Nelson Mandela when he was released

01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:35.760
from Robben Island. So that pretty much speaks

01:30:35.760 --> 01:30:38.619
for itself. And I was asking him, what happened?

01:30:38.739 --> 01:30:41.500
What happened? How is it now that what used to

01:30:41.500 --> 01:30:44.989
be called news is... Left and right, which that

01:30:44.989 --> 01:30:46.810
shouldn't even be applied to a news station,

01:30:47.010 --> 01:30:49.789
but it is. The screen's divided into four and

01:30:49.789 --> 01:30:52.489
four assholes are arguing with each other, giving

01:30:52.489 --> 01:30:55.090
their opinions. It has nothing to do with news.

01:30:55.170 --> 01:30:58.430
And it's all either obviously paid by the left

01:30:58.430 --> 01:31:01.229
or paid by the right. And he was saying that

01:31:01.229 --> 01:31:04.850
TV used to be or news used to be under an umbrella

01:31:04.850 --> 01:31:08.170
of a bunch of other corporations. And so the

01:31:08.170 --> 01:31:10.340
other businesses would make the money. And the

01:31:10.340 --> 01:31:12.479
news just told the news and they had big budgets

01:31:12.479 --> 01:31:15.039
to travel and, you know, do these big exposés.

01:31:15.659 --> 01:31:17.760
And he said it was kind of like the Murdoch generation.

01:31:18.420 --> 01:31:20.140
And they turned around one day and said, well,

01:31:20.140 --> 01:31:22.539
the news needs to make money. And that's when

01:31:22.539 --> 01:31:26.479
you got the clickbait stories. And if there's

01:31:26.479 --> 01:31:28.920
one thing we could do in this country with just

01:31:28.920 --> 01:31:31.899
to insert the concept to everyone's mind, the

01:31:31.899 --> 01:31:34.859
only fucking thing that people care about and

01:31:34.859 --> 01:31:38.960
CNN or Fox is that the advertising space in the

01:31:38.960 --> 01:31:41.930
middle. That is it. That is their only actual

01:31:41.930 --> 01:31:46.250
focus is to sell ads between Wanky Story 1 and

01:31:46.250 --> 01:31:49.989
Wanky Story 2. If they could see that, then we

01:31:49.989 --> 01:31:53.210
would dismantle that part of media and then bolster,

01:31:53.229 --> 01:31:55.210
like you're talking about, the local media and

01:31:55.210 --> 01:31:57.670
arguably the middle of the road, like the BBC

01:31:57.670 --> 01:32:00.390
used to be at least, like those kind of outlets

01:32:00.390 --> 01:32:03.909
so that we can have impartial reporting on, hey,

01:32:03.930 --> 01:32:06.390
this guy was on an island or this guy did whatever.

01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:09.439
And so we can hold these people accountable and

01:32:09.439 --> 01:32:12.000
make sure that we don't have the wrong kind of

01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:15.500
human in a horrendous position of power. But

01:32:15.500 --> 01:32:19.720
as long as we have this model where the angrier

01:32:19.720 --> 01:32:23.060
the viewer is, the more glued to the TV they

01:32:23.060 --> 01:32:24.859
are, therefore they're going to watch the fucking

01:32:24.859 --> 01:32:28.600
drug commercial. This is it. It's completely

01:32:28.600 --> 01:32:31.359
broken. And then now, as you see, people that...

01:32:31.880 --> 01:32:34.239
you know, subscribe to one or the other politically

01:32:34.239 --> 01:32:37.340
are slowly then dismantling, whether it's books

01:32:37.340 --> 01:32:40.739
in schools or news stations or PBS or, you know,

01:32:40.739 --> 01:32:43.039
the Kennedy Center. And they're just taking all

01:32:43.039 --> 01:32:45.979
these cultural pieces apart, removing plaques

01:32:45.979 --> 01:32:48.340
with the history of America. You know, it's so

01:32:48.340 --> 01:32:53.119
obvious, but people are so bought into whatever

01:32:53.119 --> 01:32:55.560
trench of their World War I warfare mentality.

01:32:56.590 --> 01:32:58.670
that they can't see the game as a whole. And

01:32:58.670 --> 01:33:00.409
again, like we said, they can't see the bird.

01:33:00.529 --> 01:33:02.689
All they can see is the one wing. And we're not

01:33:02.689 --> 01:33:04.869
getting news. And this is why there's distrust.

01:33:04.890 --> 01:33:07.329
There's not distrust from real journalism. There's

01:33:07.329 --> 01:33:10.729
distrust because it is, you know, untrustworthy

01:33:10.729 --> 01:33:13.189
because the only thing they're trying to do is

01:33:13.189 --> 01:33:16.310
get you to watch commercials. That is it. Yeah.

01:33:16.510 --> 01:33:23.069
No, it's a real problem. And I don't know how

01:33:23.069 --> 01:33:26.079
you fix it, but we're all... We're heading to,

01:33:26.180 --> 01:33:30.779
you know, good things don't come from this, you

01:33:30.779 --> 01:33:36.520
know. There used to be a phrase, I'm trying to

01:33:36.520 --> 01:33:38.439
think of it, I've drawn a blank on it, but, you

01:33:38.439 --> 01:33:42.600
know, was it democracy dies in the dark? When

01:33:42.600 --> 01:33:48.199
all these news outlets go under, that's the darkness,

01:33:48.279 --> 01:33:52.699
you know, that is allowing your government. whether

01:33:52.699 --> 01:33:55.220
it's local or national, to do whatever it wants.

01:33:57.479 --> 01:33:59.739
And it's always going to act in its own self

01:33:59.739 --> 01:34:01.859
-interest and not yours. And if there's any doubt

01:34:01.859 --> 01:34:04.640
in that, you know, you can look at there's so

01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:09.119
many examples from history of times when an industry

01:34:09.119 --> 01:34:13.020
was totally unregulated or they were, you know,

01:34:13.039 --> 01:34:15.479
we talked about the insurance industry. Government's

01:34:15.479 --> 01:34:17.399
quite happy to keep doing what it's doing because

01:34:17.399 --> 01:34:21.640
it makes a ton of money from insurance. The prison

01:34:21.640 --> 01:34:25.279
industry, their lobbyists kick a ton of money

01:34:25.279 --> 01:34:29.340
into government. And so we pay ridiculous amounts

01:34:29.340 --> 01:34:31.960
of money to have nonviolent offenders in jail

01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:33.859
for a very long period of time. And it's crazy

01:34:33.859 --> 01:34:39.539
expensive to put somebody in jail. All the stuff

01:34:39.539 --> 01:34:41.779
that we do, and you kind of look at it and you

01:34:41.779 --> 01:34:44.100
go, they're enriching themselves. And they have

01:34:44.100 --> 01:34:47.020
been for a very long time. you know and you're

01:34:47.020 --> 01:34:49.140
just sitting back and you know the only thing

01:34:49.140 --> 01:34:52.859
we ever had was the ability to out them and we're

01:34:52.859 --> 01:34:56.260
losing that um so i do i fear for what what that's

01:34:56.260 --> 01:35:00.960
going to look like um in the future yeah i mean

01:35:00.960 --> 01:35:03.939
you look at the the precursor of a lot of bad

01:35:03.939 --> 01:35:06.060
things and i know people always point to you

01:35:06.060 --> 01:35:08.880
know the the holocaust but it's a very good example

01:35:08.880 --> 01:35:13.199
it is it's painting painting the enemy it's it's

01:35:13.199 --> 01:35:15.899
removing communication it's you know polarizing

01:35:15.899 --> 01:35:18.300
uh you know a nation and it's all the things

01:35:18.300 --> 01:35:21.180
that we see and it's not just left you know it

01:35:21.180 --> 01:35:23.079
i mean just not just right it's right left it's

01:35:23.079 --> 01:35:26.380
the same same exact game and you look at the

01:35:26.380 --> 01:35:29.600
given example look at purdue pharma that to this

01:35:29.600 --> 01:35:31.819
day are responsible for a hundred thousand american

01:35:31.819 --> 01:35:34.479
deaths through the opioid crisis that was an

01:35:34.479 --> 01:35:37.720
fda approved drug That person who approved it

01:35:37.720 --> 01:35:39.920
then went and worked for Purdue Pharma. And Purdue

01:35:39.920 --> 01:35:43.180
Pharma to this day still give millions and millions

01:35:43.180 --> 01:35:45.340
of dollars to politicians on the left and the

01:35:45.340 --> 01:35:48.800
right. None of that is serving the American people.

01:35:50.000 --> 01:35:54.380
No, and that book about the Sackler family and

01:35:54.380 --> 01:35:57.699
just how it all happened. And there have been

01:35:57.699 --> 01:35:59.260
a million TV shows, a million documentaries,

01:35:59.380 --> 01:36:01.140
a million books about the opioid crisis. But

01:36:01.140 --> 01:36:04.729
yeah, that's a perfect example of... You know,

01:36:04.750 --> 01:36:08.850
everybody knew that what was happening was wrong

01:36:08.850 --> 01:36:10.590
and it was going to be a problem. But people

01:36:10.590 --> 01:36:12.609
were making a ton of money and they were OK with

01:36:12.609 --> 01:36:14.350
it. You know, there was a time when we all said,

01:36:14.390 --> 01:36:17.210
you know, there's no way the U .S. government

01:36:17.210 --> 01:36:19.569
was involved in importing cocaine into the United

01:36:19.569 --> 01:36:23.090
States. But we all can look at back now and actually

01:36:23.090 --> 01:36:26.069
know we really were. And, you know, it was all

01:36:26.069 --> 01:36:28.829
part of Iran -Contra and all these bananas things

01:36:28.829 --> 01:36:31.340
that were going on. But, you know, we're paying

01:36:31.340 --> 01:36:34.760
for arms to do this and we're, you know, supporting

01:36:34.760 --> 01:36:36.460
this government. We're not supporting that government.

01:36:36.579 --> 01:36:38.180
We're trying to get these guys overthrown. We're

01:36:38.180 --> 01:36:41.180
trying to get these guys to grow. And part of

01:36:41.180 --> 01:36:43.140
the way we're doing it is through drug money.

01:36:43.699 --> 01:36:46.479
And yes, eventually, you know, we sort of cut

01:36:46.479 --> 01:36:48.920
Noriega off at the knees, but not until after

01:36:48.920 --> 01:36:53.939
the crack epidemic had been a thing. You know,

01:36:54.020 --> 01:36:56.939
your government is not necessarily your friend.

01:36:57.360 --> 01:36:59.479
It is an incredibly powerful, like it's that

01:36:59.479 --> 01:37:01.619
bully, you know, like maybe you like him because

01:37:01.619 --> 01:37:03.319
he's sort of charming, but you're also a little

01:37:03.319 --> 01:37:05.260
bit scared of him because, you know, like at

01:37:05.260 --> 01:37:07.039
some point he's going to turn that negative attention

01:37:07.039 --> 01:37:08.640
on me and you never know when it's going to be

01:37:08.640 --> 01:37:09.880
and you never know when you're going to get punched

01:37:09.880 --> 01:37:12.420
by this guy. That's how the government feels.

01:37:12.479 --> 01:37:16.100
And I do, they need to be held accountable and

01:37:16.100 --> 01:37:19.479
all too often they just aren't. And I think what

01:37:19.479 --> 01:37:21.939
gets me is there are examples of great leaders

01:37:21.939 --> 01:37:23.779
around the world. And I think a lot of people

01:37:23.779 --> 01:37:26.039
at the moment, especially, you know, look at

01:37:26.039 --> 01:37:29.140
Scandinavia. I mean, they have very low violence.

01:37:29.239 --> 01:37:31.720
They have very low recidivism, very low deaths

01:37:31.720 --> 01:37:34.539
on the road, very healthy population. You know,

01:37:34.579 --> 01:37:37.119
is it perfect? No. I mean, there are gangs in

01:37:37.119 --> 01:37:39.380
Sweden. It's kind of coming up at the moment.

01:37:39.460 --> 01:37:40.960
I don't even know what the backstory of that

01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:42.920
is. You know, there was a horrendous shooting

01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:45.380
in Norway on the summer camp. So there's always

01:37:45.380 --> 01:37:48.760
still those things. But overall, they're doing

01:37:48.760 --> 01:37:52.619
things really well. So what are they doing right?

01:37:53.130 --> 01:37:55.569
that we're not doing here. So this is one of

01:37:55.569 --> 01:37:57.329
the things about the show is I get the people

01:37:57.329 --> 01:38:00.430
from these, you know, these nations and these

01:38:00.430 --> 01:38:02.449
systems that are working well. And then the question

01:38:02.449 --> 01:38:05.430
is, well, the rising tide lifts all ships. We

01:38:05.430 --> 01:38:08.510
have an opioid crisis. Portugal reversed theirs

01:38:08.510 --> 01:38:11.689
through decriminalization and bolstering mental

01:38:11.689 --> 01:38:14.069
health and addiction and job creation and housing.

01:38:14.569 --> 01:38:17.470
Why are we not copying Portugal's addiction model,

01:38:17.590 --> 01:38:20.029
Norway's prisons, Finland's education system,

01:38:20.189 --> 01:38:24.520
Japan's, you know, philosophy on food and obesity.

01:38:25.340 --> 01:38:27.659
It's already figured out. We just have to have

01:38:27.659 --> 01:38:30.399
the humility to say, well, let's do that. But

01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:32.760
as we alluded to, if there are organizations

01:38:32.760 --> 01:38:35.039
that are lining politicians' pockets that are

01:38:35.039 --> 01:38:38.779
making billions of dollars from American disease

01:38:38.779 --> 01:38:41.800
and death, then until the country says enough

01:38:41.800 --> 01:38:43.600
is enough, we're just going to keep rolling over

01:38:43.600 --> 01:38:46.840
and accepting it. Yeah. Somehow we've allowed

01:38:46.840 --> 01:38:52.670
them to trick us into thinking that A universal

01:38:52.670 --> 01:38:55.170
health care system is going to turn us into the

01:38:55.170 --> 01:39:02.229
USSR. You know how. How we said, you know how

01:39:02.229 --> 01:39:04.470
this thing of like, oh, it's communism and socialism.

01:39:04.630 --> 01:39:07.590
OK, well, I don't know about that, but I know

01:39:07.590 --> 01:39:09.890
I know Canadians are horrible people and they

01:39:09.890 --> 01:39:12.510
have a better system than we do. And the English,

01:39:12.630 --> 01:39:15.229
their system seems to work. It doesn't bankrupt

01:39:15.229 --> 01:39:18.369
people. Is it perfect? No, but what we have is

01:39:18.369 --> 01:39:20.090
currently not perfect. Not only is it imperfect.

01:39:21.180 --> 01:39:23.060
But it can bankrupt people. You know, our infant

01:39:23.060 --> 01:39:26.460
mortality rate is not good. You know, there are

01:39:26.460 --> 01:39:28.460
a lot of developed nations that beat us there.

01:39:28.539 --> 01:39:31.520
Maybe there's something we can learn. But the

01:39:31.520 --> 01:39:34.119
people who make those laws, by the way, the same

01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:36.199
people who are allowed to vote on their own raises

01:39:36.199 --> 01:39:39.100
every year, the people who make those laws are

01:39:39.100 --> 01:39:41.659
getting a ton of money from insurance companies.

01:39:41.859 --> 01:39:45.680
And so how do you convince people that you getting

01:39:45.680 --> 01:39:48.479
all this money to vote against their best interest

01:39:48.479 --> 01:39:51.320
is actually in their best interest? generated

01:39:51.320 --> 01:39:53.039
boogeyman. And you say, well, it's communism.

01:39:53.460 --> 01:39:55.399
Well, guess what? There's this thing called Medicare.

01:39:55.500 --> 01:39:58.760
We already provide health care to Americans in

01:39:58.760 --> 01:40:01.439
need. If you have kidney failure, you know what

01:40:01.439 --> 01:40:03.479
we do? We pay for your dialysis. Wouldn't have

01:40:03.479 --> 01:40:05.140
been a whole lot cheaper if we were paying for

01:40:05.140 --> 01:40:07.300
your lisinopril. Because I can tell you now,

01:40:07.340 --> 01:40:09.420
dialysis is expensive. And kidney failure leads

01:40:09.420 --> 01:40:11.640
to heart failure. And we have to pay for all

01:40:11.640 --> 01:40:14.500
of that we pay for. And all of your ICU care

01:40:14.500 --> 01:40:17.520
stays, we pay for. Would have been so much cheaper

01:40:17.520 --> 01:40:19.800
to pay for your lisinopril. But we didn't because

01:40:19.800 --> 01:40:21.640
that would have been communism. But now we will

01:40:21.640 --> 01:40:23.399
pay for your dialysis. We will pay for your heart

01:40:23.399 --> 01:40:24.939
failure. And we will pay for your transplant.

01:40:25.180 --> 01:40:27.000
And we'll pay for your multiple hospital stays.

01:40:27.119 --> 01:40:29.359
We'll pay for all of your other medications because

01:40:29.359 --> 01:40:31.619
we didn't want to pay for your lisinopril. Because

01:40:31.619 --> 01:40:34.239
somebody convinced us that that was the only

01:40:34.239 --> 01:40:37.380
way to do it, even though it's not the only way

01:40:37.380 --> 01:40:39.000
to do it. It's just the only way to keep that

01:40:39.000 --> 01:40:43.140
company very wealthy. It's a frustrating place

01:40:43.140 --> 01:40:46.640
to find yourself in. But that's where we are.

01:40:48.029 --> 01:40:50.869
Well, coming from the UK, I was born in the 70s,

01:40:50.869 --> 01:40:53.649
so I got to see it before it started being picked

01:40:53.649 --> 01:40:56.710
apart and the pressure of privatization coming

01:40:56.710 --> 01:41:00.949
from the States. But when you have a national

01:41:00.949 --> 01:41:03.329
healthcare system, because socialized medicine

01:41:03.329 --> 01:41:05.590
is used deliberately to sound like socialism,

01:41:05.689 --> 01:41:07.489
to sound like you're talking about, that there's

01:41:07.489 --> 01:41:10.630
nurses goose -stepping up and down the ER. But

01:41:10.630 --> 01:41:14.529
if you have a tax -based healthcare system, then

01:41:14.529 --> 01:41:18.000
what does that do? drives you to make your nation

01:41:18.000 --> 01:41:21.260
as healthy as possible so that you use healthcare

01:41:21.260 --> 01:41:23.399
as little as possible. It's just basic economics,

01:41:23.600 --> 01:41:26.359
supply and demand. When you have a profit -based

01:41:26.359 --> 01:41:29.300
healthcare system like America, what does it

01:41:29.300 --> 01:41:32.579
do? The opposite is also true. It drives you

01:41:32.579 --> 01:41:35.520
to keep Americans fat and sick so that you have

01:41:35.520 --> 01:41:39.220
an addict for life. And with the Singapore example,

01:41:40.119 --> 01:41:41.960
One step even better is that the person never

01:41:41.960 --> 01:41:45.640
gets obese or hypertensive or whatever the disease

01:41:45.640 --> 01:41:48.460
process is in the first place. And so they don't

01:41:48.460 --> 01:41:50.760
need it. They need help with childbirth. They

01:41:50.760 --> 01:41:52.960
need help with maybe palliative care at the end

01:41:52.960 --> 01:41:55.420
of their life. They get hit by a bus. But the

01:41:55.420 --> 01:41:58.779
chronic disease is so much lower when you, like

01:41:58.779 --> 01:42:02.140
Scandinavia, when you just have things in place

01:42:02.140 --> 01:42:04.560
to make people healthier in general, clean food

01:42:04.560 --> 01:42:08.920
and exercise. And Finland, in the Finnish schools,

01:42:09.609 --> 01:42:11.890
They look at the child holistically, the whole

01:42:11.890 --> 01:42:14.489
child. They have lots of recess. They bolster

01:42:14.489 --> 01:42:19.289
schools in areas where they're financially struggling

01:42:19.289 --> 01:42:21.449
rather than penalizing them like they do here

01:42:21.449 --> 01:42:25.470
in America. So when you invest in your profession,

01:42:25.630 --> 01:42:27.750
the same way as I harp on with the work week

01:42:27.750 --> 01:42:30.310
and the fire service, when you invest in a fourth

01:42:30.310 --> 01:42:33.170
shift and you have healthy firefighters with

01:42:33.170 --> 01:42:35.869
ample rest and recovery, it saves money hand

01:42:35.869 --> 01:42:39.239
over fist downstream. But someone told me, Patrick

01:42:39.239 --> 01:42:42.140
Pianza, I think it was, the writer of Code 3,

01:42:42.319 --> 01:42:45.840
who also was a big fan of national health. He

01:42:45.840 --> 01:42:48.159
said, I think it was him. Maybe it was someone

01:42:48.159 --> 01:42:52.659
else. Anyway, 20 % of our GDP is in healthcare.

01:42:53.340 --> 01:42:55.020
So when people are like, oh, we don't have the

01:42:55.020 --> 01:42:57.220
money for it. You do. It's just being pissed

01:42:57.220 --> 01:43:00.279
away through killing Americans. That's basically

01:43:00.279 --> 01:43:03.760
it. So you front load that immense amount of

01:43:03.760 --> 01:43:06.829
money. Imagine what you could do, not only in

01:43:06.829 --> 01:43:08.829
the health of your nation, but in education and

01:43:08.829 --> 01:43:11.069
security and bolstering the first responders

01:43:11.069 --> 01:43:14.430
and all these other things. But the problem is

01:43:14.430 --> 01:43:17.069
it's all leaving our pockets and going into these

01:43:17.069 --> 01:43:19.710
predatory businesses. And it's not at the benefit

01:43:19.710 --> 01:43:22.630
of us whatsoever. Not one bit. I was in Mexico

01:43:22.630 --> 01:43:29.590
when my EpiPen broke. I'm allergic to bees. So

01:43:29.590 --> 01:43:32.720
I walk into a Mexican pharmacy. If you've ever

01:43:32.720 --> 01:43:35.460
bought an EpiPen, they're like 500 bucks. Maybe,

01:43:35.539 --> 01:43:37.199
I think there's a coupon. You might be able to

01:43:37.199 --> 01:43:40.760
get one for 350. Once a doctor tried to charge

01:43:40.760 --> 01:43:47.420
me 700 for one. I walked into a pharmacy in Mexico,

01:43:47.640 --> 01:43:52.979
asked for Epi. He gave me, the guy behind the

01:43:52.979 --> 01:43:55.779
counter gave me a styrofoam cube with 30 ampoules

01:43:55.779 --> 01:43:59.920
of epinephrine in it for 30 bucks. Enough to

01:43:59.920 --> 01:44:03.560
save me from a million bee stings. Is that your

01:44:03.560 --> 01:44:09.640
next book? Yeah. Why am I paying $500 for epi

01:44:09.640 --> 01:44:16.300
here and, you know, $30 for 30 ampules in Mexico?

01:44:17.979 --> 01:44:22.880
What's wrong with that system? As someone who

01:44:22.880 --> 01:44:25.840
grew up and has really only lived in a capitalist

01:44:25.840 --> 01:44:28.180
society, I'm quite happy in the U .S. I like

01:44:28.180 --> 01:44:30.840
the things we have. I like how we incentivize

01:44:30.840 --> 01:44:32.819
hard work and all these other things. I'm a believer

01:44:32.819 --> 01:44:35.939
in the system. I'm also a believer in that any

01:44:35.939 --> 01:44:38.960
system can be abused and that there are a lot

01:44:38.960 --> 01:44:41.039
of people out there who aren't looking out for

01:44:41.039 --> 01:44:42.560
everybody else or only looking out for themselves.

01:44:43.359 --> 01:44:47.159
And there are instances. where that really shows

01:44:47.159 --> 01:44:49.079
that i think healthcare industry is one of them

01:44:49.079 --> 01:44:54.319
the fact that an epipen is 500 here and then

01:44:54.319 --> 01:44:56.920
you walk you in in el paso your epipen would

01:44:56.920 --> 01:45:02.260
be 500 bucks walk across the border and you're

01:45:02.260 --> 01:45:05.979
getting 30 ampules for 30 um that says something

01:45:05.979 --> 01:45:09.220
um and it should be it should be eye -opening

01:45:09.220 --> 01:45:11.880
and it should make people really friggin angry

01:45:11.880 --> 01:45:15.300
um but it doesn't seem to uh for and i and i

01:45:16.140 --> 01:45:18.199
And I think it's because we're so hidden behind

01:45:18.199 --> 01:45:23.319
our own walls that we just can't. It's really

01:45:23.319 --> 01:45:27.020
hard to break through. And I think they've done

01:45:27.020 --> 01:45:28.779
that to us. They've sort of spun us in circles

01:45:28.779 --> 01:45:31.680
and made us very defensive and everybody sort

01:45:31.680 --> 01:45:36.020
of crawled back to their corners. But we put

01:45:36.020 --> 01:45:38.159
ourselves in the corner. We allowed ourselves

01:45:38.159 --> 01:45:39.520
to be backed into the corner. There isn't any

01:45:39.520 --> 01:45:42.380
threat that's put us in this corner. We've backed

01:45:42.380 --> 01:45:44.220
into these corners. And so we feel like, well,

01:45:44.220 --> 01:45:46.699
this is it. I'm as far back as I can go, and

01:45:46.699 --> 01:45:48.520
so I've got to fight anything that comes to me.

01:45:49.300 --> 01:45:51.380
But, you know, somebody clicked on the light,

01:45:51.399 --> 01:45:53.600
you just see four people standing in a corner

01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:56.600
and nothing else, you know. Four people ready

01:45:56.600 --> 01:45:59.180
to fight to the death with no enemy in front

01:45:59.180 --> 01:46:01.859
of them. And I think we'd all feel a little bit

01:46:01.859 --> 01:46:04.039
embarrassed if they did that, but, you know,

01:46:04.039 --> 01:46:06.239
that's where we are. Hopefully we can, you know,

01:46:06.239 --> 01:46:08.720
we can begin to make some change. I'm going to

01:46:08.720 --> 01:46:10.640
go with your hope, man. I'm going to go with

01:46:10.640 --> 01:46:16.340
your hope. Let's go grab a light bulb. All right.

01:46:16.439 --> 01:46:18.680
Well, the next question, is there a person that

01:46:18.680 --> 01:46:20.939
you'd recommend to come on this podcast as a

01:46:20.939 --> 01:46:23.500
guest to speak to the first responders, military

01:46:23.500 --> 01:46:28.359
and associated professions of the world? I'm

01:46:28.359 --> 01:46:34.760
trying to think of who. We're not going to try

01:46:34.760 --> 01:46:36.920
and get John Moon on, so that'll be one of them.

01:46:37.100 --> 01:46:39.199
John Moon would be great. John Moon would be

01:46:39.199 --> 01:46:46.560
fantastic. You know, I. I would say that I know

01:46:46.560 --> 01:46:52.600
a lot of people who volunteer in other countries

01:46:52.600 --> 01:46:56.600
and in the U .S. and they go all around, medical

01:46:56.600 --> 01:47:00.500
volunteers. And I'm always intrigued by their

01:47:00.500 --> 01:47:05.239
perspective of seeing people in distress from

01:47:05.239 --> 01:47:08.640
all different cultures, the unifying nature of

01:47:08.640 --> 01:47:13.359
this stuff, but also the ways in which. different

01:47:13.359 --> 01:47:15.140
people are handling things. And I always think

01:47:15.140 --> 01:47:18.560
they have such a great perspective. So, you know,

01:47:18.560 --> 01:47:21.239
a friend of mine, Ryan Kerr, former paramedic,

01:47:21.239 --> 01:47:25.159
current ICU nurse, he's always in some other

01:47:25.159 --> 01:47:32.020
war zone or disaster zone. And I think that that

01:47:32.020 --> 01:47:36.140
sort of perspective of, you know, what we all

01:47:36.140 --> 01:47:39.779
collectively face and the ways in which we can

01:47:39.779 --> 01:47:44.949
do it better. I think it's always helpful. Brilliant.

01:47:45.069 --> 01:47:47.310
Absolutely. All right. Well, the last question

01:47:47.310 --> 01:47:48.930
before we make sure everyone knows where to find

01:47:48.930 --> 01:47:56.449
you, what do you do to decompress? I swim a lot.

01:47:56.529 --> 01:47:59.109
I find myself swimming more and more. Maybe it's

01:47:59.109 --> 01:48:02.949
the working less. I try to, there's something

01:48:02.949 --> 01:48:08.760
about, you know, endurance exercise. You know,

01:48:08.760 --> 01:48:10.319
that first like five minutes where you're like,

01:48:10.380 --> 01:48:12.140
today's not the day. I can't do it today. I'm

01:48:12.140 --> 01:48:14.420
going to have to quit. And you push through it.

01:48:14.439 --> 01:48:16.199
And then you get to that like 10 minute mark

01:48:16.199 --> 01:48:19.640
where you just like some other gear kicks in

01:48:19.640 --> 01:48:21.439
and you're like, oh, I can do this for the next

01:48:21.439 --> 01:48:24.960
three hours. And your mind just really empties

01:48:24.960 --> 01:48:27.720
out. And by the time I get out of the pool, I'm

01:48:27.720 --> 01:48:32.000
like rubbery with exhaustion. It's such a great

01:48:32.000 --> 01:48:35.800
stress reliever. And it just. empties your mind

01:48:35.800 --> 01:48:37.739
in the same way that standing in the shower empties

01:48:37.739 --> 01:48:40.020
your mind. And suddenly all these clear thoughts

01:48:40.020 --> 01:48:43.460
come in and there is no, you know, there's no

01:48:43.460 --> 01:48:46.279
phone stimulation. There is no computer simulation.

01:48:47.340 --> 01:48:50.220
All those things are literally impossible. I

01:48:50.220 --> 01:48:51.420
mean, that's the thing about a run. You could,

01:48:51.420 --> 01:48:53.640
you can still have your phone and be doing, you

01:48:53.640 --> 01:48:56.439
know, but in a pool, you know, that those don't

01:48:56.439 --> 01:48:58.800
exist. And so to me, that is like to just totally

01:48:58.800 --> 01:49:02.439
be alone with my own thoughts. It's even sensory

01:49:02.439 --> 01:49:05.340
deprivation. You know, you can't hear. It's a

01:49:05.340 --> 01:49:09.500
perfect exercise. I know now you can have the

01:49:09.500 --> 01:49:11.159
headphones that go in the pool. And I think I've

01:49:11.159 --> 01:49:13.659
even seen goggles that have like, I don't know

01:49:13.659 --> 01:49:15.359
exactly what they're displaying, but they're

01:49:15.359 --> 01:49:16.899
displaying something, whether it's the time of

01:49:16.899 --> 01:49:20.920
your workout. But yeah, exactly. Isn't there

01:49:20.920 --> 01:49:22.859
something more important than data? Like, is

01:49:22.859 --> 01:49:26.479
that really all you are as a data point? I don't

01:49:26.479 --> 01:49:30.649
know. Yeah, I agree completely. There's 10 ,000

01:49:30.649 --> 01:49:32.869
years of evolution packed into your brain. Let

01:49:32.869 --> 01:49:36.670
that breathe a little bit. I was talking to my

01:49:36.670 --> 01:49:42.510
wife yesterday. I think it was her. I eat differently

01:49:42.510 --> 01:49:45.109
every day depending on what my body seems to

01:49:45.109 --> 01:49:47.130
want. There's days where I'm just jonesing for

01:49:47.130 --> 01:49:49.590
red meat. There's other days where a little bit

01:49:49.590 --> 01:49:52.390
of toast and I'm good for eight hours. It's bizarre.

01:49:52.630 --> 01:49:54.989
But if you're just constantly, again, locked

01:49:54.989 --> 01:49:57.890
into an app or whatever. Absolutely helps some

01:49:57.890 --> 01:50:00.430
people. Great tool. But I think if you're too

01:50:00.430 --> 01:50:03.289
focused in an external device telling you what

01:50:03.289 --> 01:50:05.770
you should be doing, you're not listening to

01:50:05.770 --> 01:50:07.409
the greatest computer on the planet, which is

01:50:07.409 --> 01:50:12.090
your own body. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree.

01:50:13.210 --> 01:50:16.369
All right. Well, just reiterate then where people

01:50:16.369 --> 01:50:18.510
can find the book and all the books, plural,

01:50:18.630 --> 01:50:20.750
excuse me. And then if they want to reach out

01:50:20.750 --> 01:50:22.829
to you, learn about you, where the other places

01:50:22.829 --> 01:50:27.930
online. So I, the books, the books are anywhere.

01:50:28.409 --> 01:50:31.750
A Thousand Naked Strangers, American Sirens are,

01:50:31.890 --> 01:50:35.810
you can have them today. They're audio, they're

01:50:35.810 --> 01:50:38.470
ebook. And then they're also, you know, hard

01:50:38.470 --> 01:50:42.189
copy, paperback in any bookstore, any place that

01:50:42.189 --> 01:50:45.310
you get books. No One's Coming is available for

01:50:45.310 --> 01:50:47.489
pre -order. There is an audio book if you're

01:50:47.489 --> 01:50:48.930
into those things. I know a lot of people love

01:50:48.930 --> 01:50:51.229
those. I can't personally listen to a book. I've

01:50:51.229 --> 01:50:55.350
got to hold a book. It is pre -orderable now

01:50:55.350 --> 01:50:58.350
in all its forms from anywhere that you want

01:50:58.350 --> 01:51:01.649
to get it. And then, you know, I'm around. I

01:51:01.649 --> 01:51:05.130
try to, you know, pass along information, what's

01:51:05.130 --> 01:51:06.850
going on with me. And, you know, I'm on Instagram

01:51:06.850 --> 01:51:10.250
and Facebook and look for my name and you will

01:51:10.250 --> 01:51:13.789
find me there. And, you know, I'm always happy

01:51:13.789 --> 01:51:16.789
to engage. Did you narrate any of your audio

01:51:16.789 --> 01:51:21.590
books? No, I haven't. And, you know, which I'm

01:51:21.590 --> 01:51:25.159
fine with. but at the same time sometimes i listen

01:51:25.159 --> 01:51:28.220
to one and i'm like oh this thing's overly dramatic

01:51:28.220 --> 01:51:32.079
you know then the door opened and you're like

01:51:32.079 --> 01:51:34.340
oh but but you know i think that's what people

01:51:34.340 --> 01:51:36.020
want i think i don't know they want a certain

01:51:36.020 --> 01:51:40.000
experience so um i'm happy to give it to them

01:51:40.000 --> 01:51:43.960
yeah i i challenge you to read one yourself one

01:51:43.960 --> 01:51:46.520
day one of your books because i found that i

01:51:46.520 --> 01:51:49.460
was the first one i just read because i was completely

01:51:49.460 --> 01:51:52.490
broken you know they were they were Literally,

01:51:52.490 --> 01:51:54.850
biography stories, my stories, and then it went

01:51:54.850 --> 01:51:57.729
to a takeaway. It was obesity or mental health,

01:51:57.829 --> 01:52:00.829
whatever it was. The second one was a fiction.

01:52:01.050 --> 01:52:02.250
I'm like, okay, well, now I'm going to have to

01:52:02.250 --> 01:52:04.649
pay an actor because I couldn't possibly do this.

01:52:05.350 --> 01:52:07.590
But then you're looking at it, kind of to your

01:52:07.590 --> 01:52:10.510
point, how is anyone really going to know what

01:52:10.510 --> 01:52:13.050
this looks like? Because I can see it. I can

01:52:13.050 --> 01:52:16.010
smell it. I can taste it. I can hear the screams,

01:52:16.170 --> 01:52:18.630
et cetera. Are they really going to be able to

01:52:18.630 --> 01:52:23.079
relay what this is really about? And so super

01:52:23.079 --> 01:52:24.859
uncomfortable. I had to do different kind of

01:52:24.859 --> 01:52:27.260
voice intonations and accents and things. But,

01:52:27.260 --> 01:52:31.479
you know, the takeaway was, you know, what is

01:52:31.479 --> 01:52:34.239
what is more important? You know, having air

01:52:34.239 --> 01:52:36.840
quotes, polished professional voice actor doing

01:52:36.840 --> 01:52:39.739
it or being engaged with the person who actually

01:52:39.739 --> 01:52:42.640
wrote it. So it'd be interesting if, you know,

01:52:42.640 --> 01:52:44.779
maybe not this book, but the next one, if you

01:52:44.779 --> 01:52:46.880
end up narrating that, what you think as far

01:52:46.880 --> 01:52:49.920
as the the outcome, because even my own family

01:52:49.920 --> 01:52:52.600
said that they. stopped hearing my voice after

01:52:52.600 --> 01:52:54.640
a few minutes and they just got pulled into the

01:52:54.640 --> 01:52:58.300
story and if my own family had that then i guess

01:52:58.300 --> 01:53:00.720
you know our imposter syndrome of our you know

01:53:00.720 --> 01:53:03.039
which is which was living rent -free in my head

01:53:03.039 --> 01:53:05.359
that oh i'm gonna sound like a twat when i'm

01:53:05.359 --> 01:53:08.600
reading this um you know this is your story so

01:53:08.600 --> 01:53:10.460
you know one would also argue well there's no

01:53:10.460 --> 01:53:12.960
better person on the planet to read your book

01:53:12.960 --> 01:53:16.539
than the person who wrote it that's interesting

01:53:16.539 --> 01:53:21.670
yeah i don't know Maybe, maybe, maybe it's a

01:53:21.670 --> 01:53:24.770
lot of time with myself. Yeah. And it's, it's

01:53:24.770 --> 01:53:27.729
weird as well because writing I found cathartic,

01:53:27.729 --> 01:53:31.010
but reading it, especially with emotion when

01:53:31.010 --> 01:53:32.649
you're, you're not, you're not doing a play,

01:53:32.770 --> 01:53:34.609
but you know, you're bringing these pages to

01:53:34.609 --> 01:53:37.970
life. It almost had the reverse effect where

01:53:37.970 --> 01:53:40.489
you you're actually, it's so visceral as you're

01:53:40.489 --> 01:53:42.989
trying to kind of, you know, relay the story

01:53:42.989 --> 01:53:46.729
vocally that it almost brought. some of the trauma

01:53:46.729 --> 01:53:49.770
back and not in a bad way but it you didn't finish

01:53:49.770 --> 01:53:51.350
and go okay i feel a little better you're like

01:53:51.350 --> 01:53:53.050
oh actually i feel a bit worse now let me go

01:53:53.050 --> 01:53:54.390
do something that'll make me feel better let

01:53:54.390 --> 01:53:56.770
me go for a swim so that was kind of interesting

01:53:56.770 --> 01:53:59.949
to see as well that that writing everything flowed

01:53:59.949 --> 01:54:02.949
out but reading and kind of yeah reading and

01:54:02.949 --> 01:54:05.409
almost reliving these scenes in the storytelling

01:54:05.409 --> 01:54:08.630
way almost had the reverse effect it was draining

01:54:10.580 --> 01:54:12.359
Yeah. I'm not really selling it to you though.

01:54:13.899 --> 01:54:15.640
That's how I envisioned it being. That's how

01:54:15.640 --> 01:54:18.460
I envisioned it being. So you're confirming my

01:54:18.460 --> 01:54:21.640
bias. All right. Well, Kevin, I want to thank

01:54:21.640 --> 01:54:23.520
you so much. I mean, the last conversation was

01:54:23.520 --> 01:54:25.380
phenomenal. Obviously we took a lot deeper dive

01:54:25.380 --> 01:54:27.779
into the last two books, but this was really

01:54:27.779 --> 01:54:29.979
fascinating to revisiting some of those topics

01:54:29.979 --> 01:54:32.699
and also learning from scratch, you know, the

01:54:32.699 --> 01:54:34.880
latest book and what these incredible people

01:54:34.880 --> 01:54:38.289
did during Ebola. I want to thank you so much

01:54:38.289 --> 01:54:40.550
for being so generous with your time and coming

01:54:40.550 --> 01:54:42.750
back onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

01:54:43.229 --> 01:54:45.850
Yeah, man. Thanks. Great to be here every time.