Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome back onto
the show former paramedic, journalist, and author
Kevin Hazard. Now, if you didn't hear my first
conversation with Kevin, it was episode 742,
and we took a deep dive into his first two books,
A Thousand Naked Strangers, and then American
Sirens about the founding paramedics in Pittsburgh.
In this second conversation, we discuss a host
of topics, from revisiting the men from the Freedom
House, the success of television dramas like
The Pit, reflecting on the pandemic, his new
book, No One's Coming, on the Ebola crisis, and
so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
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library of over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I
ask in return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said... I welcome
back onto the show Kevin Hazard. Enjoy. Well,
Kevin, I want to start by saying thank you and
welcome back. It's been, you know, I think a
couple of years since we sat down, if I'm not
mistaken. The last conversation was phenomenal.
I will put whatever episode number that was in
the intro. I forgot to look it up a second ago,
but I want to welcome you back onto the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Yeah, man. Thanks.
Good to be back. Good to see you. So firstly,
before we dive into all things topical, how have
the last couple of years or so been on your end?
Crazy. To be honest with you, you know, when
I wrote this story, I had no idea how the EMS
community was going to respond. You yourself
were just, you know, talking about, hey, like,
my EMS journey began in Florida. And what I always
heard was Florida and Los Angeles. And people
are, you know, people are kind of, you know,
EMS is really particular about itself. And there's
a lot of pride, understandably. in the history.
And I wasn't sure how open people would be to
the idea, but it's really been incredible. The
medical community as a whole has been great,
but the EMS community in particular has really
embraced it. And, you know, I've been along with
several of the other guys, I've been, you know,
traveling around and I've, you know, done. events
all over the country and and people are really
excited to hear the story they're excited to
you know to sit down with those guys so it's
been it's been kind of a whirlwind and then in
the midst of it like this new book came up and
so it's been it's been busy it's been busy well
you're referring to the men of the freedom house
the original you know paramedics really um in
our history a lot of us don't even know about
One of the best things that I've seen come on
TV recently is The Pit, and they did a great
job, obviously, with it being in Pittsburgh,
of highlighting some of the historical elements,
including the Freedom House men themselves. And
I think one of the patients that got that right
is one of the original Freedom House men in this
particular story. So for people that haven't
heard... the first episode that we did together
just going to give me an overview of you know
what that program was and um you know maybe the
kind of the the metamorphosis of that realization
now and the history lesson a lot of us in ems
are getting yeah so if you go back um to uh to
when the white paper comes out we're kind of
all familiar with that part of ems lore 1966
the idea that you know people are dying unnecessarily
and the reason is either No one is there to handle
their emergency or the people who arrive are
poorly trained. Most cities in America at that
time, what you had were either the police, volunteer
firefighters, or undertakers in the local funeral
home. None of them had any training. It was basically
just sort of, you know, grab and go. And people
were dying because of it. you know, the white
paper goes out and a doctor by the name of Peter
Saffer, who was in Pittsburgh, developed the
paramedic curriculum and he could not get anybody
to join him in this endeavor. I mean, if you
think about it, you know, his sales pitch was,
hey, you know, walk away from your life for a
year, take an incredibly difficult course that's
based off of medical school that you might or
might not pass. And when you finish it, you'd
be qualified to do a job that technically doesn't
exist. Not a lot of people say yes to that. So
he had a difficult time. And eventually where
that search for the first paramedics landed was
in a neighborhood in Pittsburgh called the Hill
District. It was a, you know, it was an all black
neighborhood. It was on particularly hard times.
And people from that neighborhood who, you know,
were referred to in the local press as unemployables.
The city at that time had redlining covenants,
so they couldn't even move out of that neighborhood
if they wanted. It was illegal to sell your home
if you lived in other neighborhoods to black
people. So they were stuck in this place that
had no services, no jobs, no opportunity, no
anything. And along comes EMS. Along comes the
opportunity to become a paramedic, which, of
course, they'd never heard of. But they knew
what they had at that moment, which was the police
service, did not serve them very well. And so
they stepped into the breach that all of us.
as a nation, were basically begging for someone
to do. And, you know, they performed incredibly
well, and they did it for a decade. And at the
end of that decade, the city quite unceremoniously
shut them down. But, you know, out of that, you
know, dozen or 10 or so years that they were
operating, so many firsts happened. I mean, you
know, just the creation of the paramedic, the
creation of paramedic curriculum, the establishment
of a medical director. One of whom for them was
Nancy Caroline, who wrote Emergency Care in the
Streets, sort of the seminal textbook for so
many people in this field. She wrote that book
based on her experiences there with their assistants.
The use of Narcan to reverse overdoses, they
were the first ones to do that. The design of
the ambulance, what they carried, how they were
trained, how they were deployed. aspects of radio
communications it was all sort of field tested
in this service and other doctors were coming
in from around the country other directors are
coming in from around the country they were seeing
what they were doing they were sort of borrowing
bits and pieces of it expanding on it growing
it doing the thing that that you know that that
evolution does something pops up in the world
and then you know everybody sort of comes in
and um and grows it and and so but but that's
the seed that's that's where this all began you
know even though by the time johnny and roy come
along and you know emergency is this television
show that inspired a generation of kids to become
paramedics by the time the show came along these
guys had been operating for years so they're
really you know the inciting incident for paramedics
as we know it for ems as we know it and for Nearly
50 years, their history had been sort of swept
under the rug and they were, you know, banging
a drum for anyone who would listen and say, hey,
we've got this incredible story to tell someone,
please listen. And, you know, I just happened
to be one of the people who got in and listened.
Now, I mentioned the pit. We're starting to see
this story really gain some traction again. But
when you reflect back now, having written the
history of this. What were the elements behind
the, to use a modern term, whitewashing of our
history? I think, so it starts with the city
deciding, the city resisted them. You know, they
begin operating in the immediate aftermath of
the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. So
April of 1968. For the next four, four and a
half, five years, the city essentially resists
the idea that paramedicine is viable. They try
to suggest that it's not even, you know, practical
to perform medicine in a moving vehicle. They
try to say it's not cost effective. They try
to say it's not necessary. And they do everything
they can to hold it down. Meanwhile, all over
the country, including Los Angeles, where it
inspires a television show, again, that inspires
a generation of kids and that people to this
day line up in hundreds to get things signed
by Johnny and Roy. While that's happening, while
the paramedic is being turned into a hero on
national television with a beloved show and beloved
characters in the city where it's born, the government
is trying to shut it down. And if you look at
the service that is growing and expanding everywhere
else, except for one place, and the only thing
that differentiates Pittsburgh from every other
city where EMS was growing is that in Pittsburgh,
all the medics were black. And you can say that's
a coincidence. I would say that's one of the
world's most remarkable coincidence, if it is
one. So they resist it. And then finally, they
reach a point where they can no longer resist
it. The entire country has it. You can no longer
say this isn't viable. In fact, people in Pittsburgh
are watching this show on their televisions.
So the city says, OK, fine, we'll create an EMS
service. And they do. But they're not going to
take any of the people from Freedom House and
they start all over again, even though these
guys were the originals and everybody else had
been borrowing from them. And the person who
created their program is Peter Saffer, nominated
three times for the Nobel Prize in Medicine,
the father of CPR. A bonafide medical genius,
20th century intellectual titan. They're not
used. And brand new doctors and brand new people
start over again from ground zero. And it fails.
And so the city, scrambling, turns to Nancy Caroline,
who was Freedom House medical director, as the
program is shutting down there in the last couple
of weeks before it's going to be killed. And
they said, please come and be our medical director.
this is going under and nancy says okay fine
i'll join you but you've got to do these things
and most of what she asked for was hire my people
allow them to practice at the current level keep
them in the shifts in the locations where they
currently work and the final her final ask was
recognized publicly the service of freedom house
provided the city of pittsburgh from 1968 to
1975. I've seen the letter she sent to the mayor,
and I've seen the letter that the mayor wrote
in response. He said yes to all of her demands
except for the only one that was free, the one
for him to publicly acknowledge the service that
Freedom House had provided for the city of Pittsburgh.
The second it was over with and Freedom House
was closed in October of 1975, the city acted
as if it never existed. And in every neighborhood
except for the Hill, people... sort of behaved
like it never existed and you know when i first
went to research this story back in 2018 2019
i was sitting in a cab and the cab driver was
like what are you doing here and i told him what
i was researching and he'd never heard of it
black guy from the city of pittsburgh had never
heard this incredible piece of american history
that you know he as a pittsburger As a black
man, this is a piece of history that was sort
of really a part of his history, much like it's
a part of my history, part of your history. Anyone
who's had their life changed by EMS, this is
a part of your history. If you're an American,
this is a part of your history. But he'd never
heard it. So the city had done really a great
job of sort of just wiping this away. I'm so
glad that... You know, it's being unpacked. And
credit to you. Obviously, the men were the ones
that told the story. But, I mean, you were certainly
the conduit in this case for getting it back
to where it needed to be. And then we have The
Pit and some of these other shows now that are
televised in this. When it comes to The Pit,
they have local doctors that are consulting.
And which is why it's so realistic, which is
why you don't have people dropping organs on
the floor and then picking them up and then transplanting
them to a patient as you do on other shows. It's
an incredibly realistic show. And that's not
done by accident. And it has a very specific
local center. And that's Pittsburgh. And that's
also not by accident. And among those doctors
were several that were familiar with Freedom
House, that knew the Freedom House medics. And
they said, hey, there's this great story that
you guys should incorporate. And Noah Wiley immediately
latched onto it. And he said, yeah, let's do
this. We've got to do it. And of course, the
writers and producers, they were all on board
as well. But they had a number of the Freedom
House medics out. They afterwards sent me pictures
and they were standing there with Noah Wiley,
you know, which is, you know, I mean, look, the
guy was in ER. He, you know, he's sort of an
American icon. Who wouldn't want to meet him
and shake his hand? And they gave him a copy
of the book, which I thought was really fantastic.
But really, you know, take me out of it, take
the book out of it. This was an opportunity for
people who had served all of us with distinction.
um to get some recognition and i was i could
not have been happier to see them standing there
with noah wiley you know um to know that that
they were there while that episode was filmed
and and then to see it on tv where all these
people watched and go wait a minute what is freedom
house and people start googling freedom house
and um you know one of the uh one of the widows
said to me um my husband died without his kid
knowing what he did And I'd like to change that.
And that has stuck with me, that this man's children
were not aware of the full extent of what he'd
been up to in the 1960s and 1970s. It's an important
story and far too long went without people really
knowing it. What are you seeing now? I mean,
you mentioned a couple of examples, but what
are you seeing as far as the growth of understanding
within our profession itself? I mean, look, these
guys are being asked to go all over the country.
They are attending EMS conferences, medical conferences.
They're going to grand rounds at different hospital
systems. Sometimes I'm there, sometimes I'm not.
You know, I mean, quite frankly, you know, when
somebody in the medical community has a conference
and I get invited and John Moon or Mitch Brown
or somebody standing next to me like. I am old
news and I'm very happy to be old news. You know,
those guys are the goods and people are excited
to see them. So to me, that's the big thing is
the way that the industry is embracing what they
consider to be, you know, the forebears of our
profession. And it's, you know, it's really,
it's gratifying. It's really gratifying. Yeah,
it's so good to see. I mean, there's a guy always
using the example, Professor Russell Foster,
totally getting away from that subject. But he
is the man who discovered the chronoreceptor
in the eye, meaning you had rods and you had
cones that we were taught about when we were
young in biology. But the receptor that can tell
the circadian rhythm. So when you hear now influencers
air quotes talking about when you first wake
up, go outside, look at the sun. This is his
research that they're quoting, but they never
give any credit to him whatsoever. And he fought
tooth and nail. The ophthalmology profession
laughed at him over and over and over again.
There's no other receptor. What are you talking
about? Until he proved it in rats. And I think
this is an important thing. When someone was
literally the pioneer of whatever it was, and
now other people are riding the coattails without
giving them any credit or recognition, that needs
to be changed. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean,
you know, I think if you, I think if you sat
down and asked these guys, you know, what is
it you want? Which, you know, is a question I
have asked. And, you know, the reaction is simply
understanding, acknowledgement, you know, that
we were here and we did this thing, you know,
and they admit at the time. They were trying
to serve their neighbor. They were trying to
serve their community. They didn't necessarily,
they were young guys. They didn't necessarily
recognize that they were changing the world because
they were in one neighborhood in one city. They
weren't seeing what was happening necessarily
all over the country. But then, you know, in
1971, 1972, emergency comes out and they see
it on television, you know, and it's kind of
like, oh, oh my, like, wait a minute, what, what
is happening? And they were very excited, very
shocked. But, you know, mainly very excited.
And I just don't think that they were anticipating
that the world would pivot away from them, that
they would just be sort of written out of history.
So, you know, I think for them more than anything
else is just recognition that in this time and
this place, these people stepped forward and
did this thing. Well, I think it's just such
a good example of how completely fucking ridiculous
racism is too. Like, oh, that that guy could
never be a paramedic because his pigmentation
is darker and he's more muscular. It makes no
sense. Or like the fact that he does it, the
fact that he is the paramedic must mean that
a paramedic is less valuable than it otherwise
would be. Yeah, exactly. Insane. Well, Stan on.
Entertainment for a second. Between the last
time we've spoken now, I watched Asphalt City.
Have you seen that film? No. Interesting. So
Sean Penn plays a burnt out New York paramedic.
um it sounds i've literally listened to part
of an interview you did just just to kind of
prep for this again um and the host mentioned
had you read black flies and when he described
what backfires was about i'm like i bet you that's
what asphalt city was based on so yeah very very
dark very bleak okay but um it it's it's the
rawness that we need in the storytelling of fire
and ems but completely devoid of any hope so
i think you know if you go too far that way you
just paint us as a bunch of people that are basically
going to end up in a coffin soon and not show
the light that's involved as well yeah that's
really always frustrates me like there's this
notion and anytime i've ever you know i've been
involved in a bunch of different ems tv and film
projects and you know the producers are always
like oh you know these guys are one step away
from death and all this you know they're all
ready to blow their brains and i'm like where
are you guys getting this from it's you know
it's like somebody told them 20 years ago hey
this is what it's supposed to look like and then
they're all just sort of regurgitating it um
that was my problem with the scorsese movie was
you know the first 30 minutes or 40 minutes or
whatever really felt like ems bringing out the
dead but then it that kind of takes this crazy
you know dog leg and it gets kind of dark and
i don't i i find it because there's so much humor
and there's a lot of hope and there's a lot of
adrenaline and there's boredom and there's frustration
and you know there is darkness there there are
people who are really burned out but i don't
think everybody's really burned out i've yet
to you know i've traveled all over the country
and talked to emas people I don't find them to
be like Pacey with black rings under their eyes
and just like dragging themselves unhappily through
life, you know, uh, ready to jump off the next
building. Like that's just not who we are as
a community. Um, I think we're, you know, like
oftentimes fucking crazy and, you know, you gotta
like keep a leash on us. Cause if you, you know,
you allow us to wander among polite company,
we might, um, you know, we might, things might
get ugly, but, We're as frustrated as we can
get. We're here because this thing is a calling.
I talked about that in my book. You could make
more money in almost any other kind of medicine.
Why are people here? What is it that draws people
to this specifically? There are drier places.
There are safer places. There are air -conditioned
places. There are heated places. So why are you
here? Why are you on an ambulance? Why are you
crouching in a street corner with your, you know,
flashlight in your teeth? Why is it that you're
doing this and you're not somewhere else? And,
you know, there is a sense of service. There's
some weird thing that calls us to it. And I,
you know, and I just think it all always misses
that. And I find it. So I really have a hard
time watching those depictions because it's like.
man that's just not like nobody who's ever done
it really feels like this you know well that's
what i'm doing i'm trying to uh turn kinder into
a tv show at the moment i say trying to i am
going you know it is happening very very slowly
but you know come hell or high water it will
be there but there isn't you know there is a
character who is initially going through a dark
place but i wanted to illustrate the hope and
healing that also goes hand in hand with that
and yes you can be burnt down from a combination
of childhood trauma and the insane shifts and
sleep deprivation and organizational betrayal
and some of these other things that do compound
that you know contribute to this suicide crisis
that we do have but if you end the sentence there
then it's like oh well that's really sad yeah
but there's but but is the most important word
but they are preventable if you start addressing
each piece that contributes to this burnout to
this breakdown whether it's in their own life
or whether it's in the organization the beautiful
thing is you can forge an environment where a
paramedic or a firefighter or a police officer
can thrive and they'll still be tired at the
end of the shift and there'll still be some stuff
they've got to process but their world will be
designed to allow them to work through that and
then become more resilient you know grow from
it yeah but I think, like you said, you either
have the Tacoma FD where we're all a bunch of
fucking idiots, you know, which I've had the
guys from that show on here too. Or you have
the Asphalt City where it's all doom and gloom.
I think Code 3 did a good job of kind of balancing,
you know, the fun and the darkness a little bit.
But I haven't seen anything really on screen
yet, which is what I want to do. That's like,
yeah, these are things. And if they're left unaddressed,
yes, they result in funerals. here's what we
can do here. You know, here, here's why we get
there and here's how you can not get there. And,
you know, here's how you can look back at the
generational trauma and all these other things,
but whether it's us in the uniform or the people
that we're responding to, it's the same conversation.
People will struggle if they're left to just
drown on their own, but you teach them to swim
and you give them a boat, all of a sudden they're
thriving now, you know? So I think that's the
one I haven't really seen on the screen yet that
I'm hoping to be able to bring. Yeah. Yeah. No,
I mean, I, look, I wish you nothing but success
in that regard. We may have more, you know, more
of that than other fields, but, you know, walk,
like meet a bunch of accountants. There's some
depressed people there, you know, go and, you
know, meet, meet chefs, meet, you know, doctors,
use car salesmen. It doesn't matter the field.
But for some reason, EMS is the only thing that
gets a very one -note depiction. And it is, they're
either kind of like buffoonish or it's just really
dark. Or, you know, you have sort of like the
911 thing, which is, you know, they're in space.
Like there was an episode where they were in
space. I saw those promos and I was like, why
are they in space? That's a hell of a transport
time. Yeah, yeah, seriously. I mean, somebody's
going to be calling them with questions. But
yeah, it is either this sort of buffoonish hero,
buffoonish buffoon, or very bleak. And I don't
think any of those things are really indicative.
No. Well, what about in the real world? You have
an unusual perspective, kind of like I do now,
from the outside looking in, but still connected
very much to that world itself. What are you
hearing as far as recruitment, retention, the
desire to enter our profession? And how does
that contrast, if at all, to when you were first
pursuing this career? I mean, I entered into
this in the aftermath of 9 -11. um kids entering
into it now weren't even alive in 9 11. you know
you think about that for a moment and that's
a like that's just something i can't wrap my
head around but that's the reality so i entered
into it at a time where there was this tremendous
sense of um you know like um People wanted to
be part of something bigger. There was a desire
to serve. There was this notion that we're all
in this together. Let's pull on the same oar.
Obviously, the countries in a different place
right now are incredibly divided. But to answer
this question, I actually did an update to strangers.
There's a new chapter that I wrote, but in order
to write it, I went back and did a ride along.
And the place where I worked, Grady, they reached
a point where they had so few medics that they
actually were running, for the first time in
their history, they were running double EMT trucks,
basic trucks. And then they would have paramedic
chase cars. So if there was a bad call. The paramedic
in a chase car would just go and drive and hop
on the ambulance and take the call, which we
had a number of double medic trucks and certainly
no truck ever would have gone anywhere without
a paramedic. And that was a response to COVID.
So many people left. So many people got burned
out and frustrated. You can hang a sign above
the door that says heroes work here. But if you
treat people like shit, then they know, you know,
they know damn well that heroes don't work here.
At least that's not how anybody sees it. Heroes
used to work here. Yeah, exactly. You know, you
know, the cosmic joke right there, which, you
know, I mean, one of the things I love about
EMS is that like people like our ability to laugh
at our own horrible predicament. You know, it's
like, yeah, this sucks, but I kind of like how
much it sucks. And, you know, so I'm sure that
everybody was laughing when they saw those heroes
work here signs go up. But, you know, you mentioned
institutional betrayal. I mean, COVID really
brought that to the fore. You know, people being
asked to go out and serve the public without
proper equipment, you know, without training,
without the support, without the people necessary
to make it happen. So I think that experience
really decimated the ranks. What it took away
from Grady in particular, but other services
and other people I've talked to, is the experience.
You've got someone who's been on the street for
five years, 10, 15, 20 years. That person has
something to teach, really something to teach.
There's a wealth of knowledge and experience.
that have gone in their eyes and out through
their hands, and they're ready now to teach it
to you. So when those people leave, when you
lose them as an organization, you lose all that
experience, you lose that history. And so much
of what this is, is history. I mean, let's be
honest. People stay at a place because they have
pride in that particular place. our service you
know wherever you're living our service man in
this city like we we do this and we do this we're
really good at it we give a damn but we're not
like these guys over here you know who who who
suck like when you when you don't get paid super
well and your conditions just by design you know
like ems the conditions are always going to be
hard that's just how it is in fact that's why
most of us want to do it like you maybe you don't
want to be in emergency and you'd rather be in
someone's living room you'd rather be in the
street in an alley wherever um you know these
are like you're there on purpose but it contributes
to making the job hard you take an incredible
amount of pride in that and the history of your
organization builds and reflects that pride so
when you lose all those people you lose that
history you lose that connection to something
else so new people coming in You know, I look
at these new Grady medics and I kind of like,
you know, I feel bad for you. You don't have
like when I started, there were guys from the
90s, the early 90s. And when they started, there
were people from the early 80s and the 70s. You
know, we were only we were one link in the chain
removed from the origin. And some of our supervisors
had started in 81. You know, there was this connection.
It was a there was a definitive line from how
it started to how it was. And that created. our,
it created the culture, it created our attitude,
it created the pride we took, you know, someone
who, you know, was working in Grady in the eighties
when it was the murder capital, like that, you
know, and there were no medics and they were
just tons of calls and, you know, they were just
running like crazy and getting paid crap. But
there, because they had pride in what they did,
if you showed up and you sucked at your job,
like you would get chewed out by some 55 year
old guy, you know, sitting there smoking a cigarette
and some like, threadbare bomber jacket with
a patch on his arm from, from 91, you know, and
he's just like bawling you out because he remembers
how this is supposed to be. And when you lose
those people, you just, gosh, you lose so much.
And so that to me, I think is a lot of what has
walked out the door is history, the pride experience,
of course, but, but the culture of EMS is something
that gets passed along. COVID really did a number
on that. The other thing I think when, if we're
talking about COVID that I thought was disgusting
is, and I transitioned out like literally a couple
of years before, so my timing was good. But you
had these people that were out there, unprotected,
minimal PPE. And then what was it? Not even a
year later, now they're being called murderers
if they didn't have the vaccine. And you talk
about organizational betrayal. You were fine
hiding in your house. Well, these people were
out in the front line, in the streets, in the
hospitals, you know, with no vaccine then. And
you were just totally OK with that. And now all
of a sudden you have the audacity to call a police
officer or a firefighter or a paramedic a murderer
because they're not having a vaccine. And then
fast forward another couple of years, it is proven
that the efficacy of that vaccine wasn't even
close to what everyone was being told. And let
me be very clear. I had the vaccine so I could
go travel and see my 105 year old grandmother
in England. So I didn't think it was going to
make my head explode, but I wouldn't have had
it done had I not traveled. So, you know, standing
in the middle. But the fact that then people
were terminated for not having the vaccine, that
I think. was like the Afghanistan withdrawal.
If there was any trust before, you just completely
destroyed it with not standing behind your people
and advocating for them after they had been completely
naked as far as any sort of protection. And then
there's this 180 and now you're firing them for
not having this vaccine. So I think the leaders
in the unions and the organizations need to look
in the mirror and realize they are a big part
of the recruitment crisis. And that is a massive
piece, I think. yeah yeah i'm sure you're right
i mean you know i i got the vaccine um you know
i just generally speaking you know i'm a believer
in them um the reason that we don't have polio
is because our parents and our grandparents got
the polio vaccine um but you know that was uh
you know covid was history being made. It was,
you know, the future arriving an hour early and
us trying to figure out how to handle it. And
we didn't handle it well. I mean, even, you know,
I mean, forget for a moment the deniers. I have
a hard time with, you know, like it would be
like, I don't understand auto mechanics. That
doesn't mean I don't believe that a fuel injector
injects fuel. I don't understand how it works,
but I know it works. And I'm willing to accept
that it happens. But anyone, you know, people
who were well -intentioned and were trying their
best to figure out how to proceed were, you know,
missteps are going to happen in a situation like
that. But you need to be really open about it
and say like, hey, guys, here's a mistake we
made. As it turns out, you know, kids weren't
a big vector. Why is that? I have no idea. Because
I'll tell you right now, if there's a measles
outbreak in my area, I'm not sending my kids
to school because they're all going to get measles.
For whatever reason, COVID did not run rampant
through schools, even though it ran rampant through
funerals and retirement homes. So why was one
community or one population more than others?
We don't know. I'm sure somebody knows. I don't
know. But as those mistakes were made, I don't
feel like we were always... You know, really
forthcoming. And that breeds distrust and distrust
breeds, you know, all the other, all the fear
and everything else that came up. And, you know,
it's just, it seems like, but human history,
I mean, you go back when cholera was discovered
in the 1830s, people didn't think cholera was
real. The flu pandemic that swept the world in
the turn of the 20th century, people were not
convinced that was real. 2014 Ebola epidemic
completely washes over three nations in West
Africa. There are people there who don't believe
it's real, even though their neighbors are literally
being burned in the street because nobody has
anywhere to put these bodies. They still don't
believe it's real because there's a lack of trust
in the government. At some point, you got to
turn to people and say, like, man, like, if you're
in the government, what have we done wrong that
people can look at a stack? of corpses being
burned in the street and not believe that the
disease that caused it is really the disease
that caused it um you know where did that trust
go and i you know i think communication is like
the number one thing that everybody always gets
wrong well the biggest thing i think was after
the fact like you said here's what we did right
here's what we did wrong and one of the things
that to this day as we're sitting here and you
know february whatever it is on 2026 still isn't
being addressed as well the one truth during
covid was the healthier you are the higher chance
there is of you surviving getting covid or even
not even noticing that you had covid and you
know what are most kids they're healthy they
don't have pre -existing conditions yet so i
think that's a big common denominator yeah um
and That also completely aligns with the burnout
of our fire and EMS. You know, no one talks about
the fact that this country is basically three
quarters overweight or obese, almost half obese,
clinically obese. So coming out of a pandemic
that clearly if you are hypertensive, diabetic,
you know, all these things, these preexisting
conditions, smoker, that there's a much higher
chance that you're going to get killed. if there
was one takeaway it said well we need to make
our nation healthier and even if you look at
the spanish flu that was world war one time that
was you know poverty and you know not the hygiene
conditions that we have now it's the same kind
of thing but not obesity just you know um compromised
immune systems from a different way so what really
pisses me off is why as we came out of covid
there wasn't a conversation like look Our country
is incredibly overweight and unhealthy. We have
a profit -based healthcare system. Our EMS and
hospitals are literally crumbling as we speak.
We need to put real food back in schools. We
need to bolster PE programs. We need to give
local farmers incentives to grow healthy food.
We need to pedestrianize downtown areas, put
more public transport in so that... We can match
other countries that are doing this kind of thing,
and they have a very healthy population. That
would help the EMS side. That would help whatever
the next virus is called. But there was none
of that. The opposite, because there's no money
in healthy people. We're very little money. The
money is all in the sick. And I think that's
one thing that we as a nation really have to
push back on. And it's not a left thing. It's
not a right thing. But over the last 30 years,
we have got fatter and fatter and sicker and
sicker. And that is one, not the only reason,
but one of the reasons why, you know, our hospitals
and our EMS systems are crumbling because more
and more and more people are calling 911 and
more and more and more people are filling triage
in hospitals. Yeah. No, there's no doubt about
that. But you're right. There's no money in doing
that. In fact, it's the opposite because, you
know, if you're going to try to make downtowns
walkable, you got to spend money. Public transportation,
you got to spend money. You know, you look at
like our food pyramids kind of out of whack,
you know, tons of money is being dumped into
like things that, you know, getting farmers to
grow tons of one thing that we don't need or
paying them to not grow some other thing. You
know, it's like kind of blows your mind. And
then you look at, you know, one of these documentaries
about these blue zones. They don't eat any of
the things that we eat. And really what it comes
down to is like a limited amount of food, daily
exercise, community. And these are things that
we lack. We don't eat unprocessed whole foods
in reasonable quantities. We don't get normal.
And I'm not talking CrossFit nonsense, but like
normal. activity type exercise. I mean, there
was, you know, in one of those documentaries
that there was a guy, you know, he's 105 or something.
And they said, why are you so, you know, why
do you think people in this area are live so
long? And he talked about the fact that they
sit on the floor to eat. This was in Japan. And
he said, you know, you can't be unhealthy. You
can't have bad joints. You can't be overweight.
You can't be out of shape and get on the floor
and get up again at 97. You know, you, you. like
it requires but you know not even tons of work
but it requires you to be a certain type who
requires you know the constant energy and effort
and and you know requires you to be reasonably
healthy and then of course community like we
just we seem to be almost like actively working
against community like finding ways to tear community
apart whether it's the design of cities or you
know like the lunacy that is social media right
now um i don't know it's uh like we it's like
we are a study in how to how to shorten your
lifespan um we're very successful at it like
we're working hard we sure are we're working
hard i saw a few times that i think i don't know
if it was based on a study but i mean forget
science it just makes sense but the biggest predictor
of health longevity wasn't exercise level wasn't
even nutrition. It was community. Because if
you feel connected to people, when you said CrossFit,
one of the biggest selling points of CrossFit
was not thrashing yourself to death, but it was
being in a room where the people that were suffering
together. And a lot of times, you know, I know
it's kind of counterintuitive, but then people
will go from CrossFit and they'll go sit in a
brewery for an hour and talk and, you know, have
a post -workout beer. That is the big thing.
Spartan races, same thing. You know what I mean?
It's not so much about, oh, this is hard climbing
this fence. It's that you're doing it together.
And, oh, there's a veteran who's missing a leg.
Let's help him get over this wall. That's the
bit that's missing. And I can't help but feel
like it is deliberately orchestrated, the fracturing
of community, because, you know, the age -old
saying, united we stand, divided we fall. And
we're falling at the moment. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't
agree with you more. I mean, all that is the
case, and here we are. And here we are. I'm a,
you know, what I call angry optimist. I truly
believe that, you know, the silent majority in
the middle, we're starting to kind of, you know,
find our feet and find our voice again. I think
there's going to be finally a pushback because
people, I think, are realizing, you know, the
right wing, the left wing, same bird, as they
say. I think the list has helped a lot with these
billionaire James Bond villains that we have
at the moment, seeing them fall and people realizing,
well, none of this is actually benefiting us,
our community, our schools, our safety, et cetera.
So I hope that you have to hit rock bottom before
you bounce up again. And I hope we're about to
ascend again as a population because, I mean,
yeah, it's pretty sad seeing what... should be
people just enjoying their life like you said
at each other's throats over a freaking politician
that doesn't give a shit about them or over whether
they wore a mask or not or you know whether one
particular police incident defines the entire
profession so uh yeah i'm looking forward to
us coming together again you you alluded to 9
11 as the phrase goes you know i miss 9 12 and
we need to find that again yeah yeah i agree
i mean look i'm not i'm not quite as hopeful
as you are in the moment um most people aren't
yeah i'm trying to find it um but you know i
think i don't know um you know even even the
mass conversation you know some of it to a degree
we we spent a lot of time lionizing you know
the greatest generation what is it that we celebrate
them for it's not it's not even so much that
they won a war which they clearly did um or necessarily
that they came through the depression and you
know had been sort of forged in this National
hardship but it was that they sacrificed for
everybody else around them and there is at the
moment an unwillingness to even inconvenience
yourself for somebody else let alone sacrifice
for somebody else and you know that to me was
the that that was the big thing that really struck
me you know during covert i mean look you're
in medicine i'm in medicine i'm well aware that
a surgical mask is not going to stop whatever
you have from coming to me but i'm also aware
that 30 years ago before any of this was political
your surgeon would have worn a surgical mask
hence the name to give you surgery because we
knew And we had known for 100 years that what
you breathe out goes into other people. And if
you block what you breathe out, then you can
limit the exposure of everyone around you to
whatever germs you have. That was just accepted.
And we allowed ourselves to sort of be baited
into this angry argument that... really didn't
serve anybody. But what it produced was this
idea of like, I'm not going to do, I'm not going
to convene myself, inconvenience myself in the
least for you. And I don't care if you think
it's going to make you better or somebody else
tells me it's going to help you. I just don't
feel like it. And that was, that was the frustrating
thing was just, you know, I think. For all of
our celebration of previous generations and their
sacrifices, I think future generations will probably
look at us and say, wow, it's a really selfish
time. Whatever side of the political spectrum
you are on, because they all have faults. Both
sides are constantly doing something that you
kind of go, really? But what is lacking, the
unifying. problem that i see is this inability
to sacrifice for others when uh when you know
i was talking to marketing people for my book
that's you know the new one um one of them said
you know like the the whole thing is the virus
and the rescue all that's cool and it's exciting
she said but what stood out to me was people
risking their lives for strangers and she said
the question that this book asked me was what
are we willing to die for and are we ever going
to have heroes again and it does we do feel like
we're in a time where what are we willing to
die for not a damn thing that isn't specific
to me you know are there heroes anymore i don't
know if i believe in heroes heroes heroes are
fake news um you know like that's just it's really
You know, I don't know. It's a little cynical.
It feels a little self -centered. You know, I
have children. So, you know, I really want to
see improvement. I want to see us come together
collectively because, you know, they're sort
of wandering out into this world. And I don't
want us to leave it worse than we could have.
You know, they're already going to have enough
challenges. I don't know. Hopefully we can kind
of. right the ship. But I don't know how hopeful
I am right now that we're getting there. Well,
I think this is also why it's important for our
profession to tell stories. Because if you talk
about selflessness, I would, you know, not putting
ourselves on a pedestal specifically, but the
profession as a whole, you kiss your loved ones
goodbye, you go away for 12 or 24 hours, and
you serve, you know, complete strangers. And
I always try to work in the most desperate parts
of town too, because I felt like that was...
where the greatest need was. So we are kind of
barometers on, you know, what service should
look like, how the country is actually doing
behind the curtain. And so the more, like you
said, that aren't this kind of, you know, no
disrespect to Chicago Fire, but the kind of,
you know, soap opera storytelling. And I had
the founder, the creator of that on. I know he
wants it to be a lot more raw, but Hollywood
shapes, curves the edges of his stories. But
I think we're not really a voice. There's no
Jocko Willink of Fire and EMS, for example. You
know what I mean? We don't have those pieces,
those faces. So I think that we are a profession
that maybe can kind of shift it a little bit
and bring everyone back to the middle and say,
well, this is what service is supposed to look
like. Because even as we sit here now, we don't
have many members of our military that are really...
you know, in combat, which is a phenomenal thing.
And that used to be one of the bigger voices
of the last 10 plus years. So now it's the people
that are on the streets every day. It's us, you
know, or our, you know, the next generation of
our profession. So I think that we have a really
good opportunity to be one of the storytellers,
you know, one of the kind of perspectives on.
What selflessness and service looks like, who's
really struggling, how we can help them, how
compassion and empathy is, you know, is going
to work and division and nastiness and hate isn't.
I mean, we live that. That's the meat grinder
that we occupy. So I think that, you know, that
your book and my book and some of the other ones
that are out there and some of the shows, there's
so much that we could do, not just showing, you
know, the cool stories of the fire or EMS world,
but. the human stories in the uniforms and the
people that we serve. Yeah. One of the things
that drives me nuts is this push by, you know,
sort of medical academia or, or administrations
refer to patients as clients. And it's, I know
it has, you know, I'm sure it's an insurance
thing and it's a Jayco thing and it's a billing
thing and all these other, but like, I wouldn't
let. a customer puke on me i wouldn't let a customer
take a swing at me but what i'm willing to endure
for my patients you know like what i'm like the
patients have thrown up on me i haven't blinked
you know i mean it's like i don't enjoy it it's
not like if i can dodge it i will and you know
all the better if i can dodge it so my partner
doesn't see it coming and he gets splattered
um so we can laugh about it later but you know,
what, what you're willing to accept from a patient
is a whole lot more than you'd accept from anyone
else. And it's because of that notion, you know,
like, what are you here for? Why did you show
up today? Well, showed up to serve my community,
you know? And that's, I don't know. I don't know
anybody who works the job who doesn't take that
part of it very seriously. So maybe you're right.
Maybe, maybe that's where, maybe we need to be
the example. I think so. Well, you mentioned
Ebola, so that's a good segue. Talk to me about
the genus. What was the nucleus of even pursuing
this story? And then let's talk about No One's
Coming. So there are two guys, two brothers.
Back in the early 80s, they started this very
strange company. And one of them, when he was
in college, worked summers on an ambulance. And
somebody sent him a copy of Strangers. And he
shoots me this email years ago, 2017 maybe. And
he said, hey, I read this book. A friend of mine
sent it to me, told me a story that he worked
back in the crazy mid -70s days of EMS where
they were like stealing patients from each other,
all the madness that was going on, sort of mother
jokes and speed world. And we just kept in contact
because he – You know, the company that he and
his brother started is, it's a, I mean, it sounds,
if I say aviation company, what goes to your
mind is like Boeing. But this is a company that
it's very, very, very small. It's in the hinterlands
of North Georgia. And they have stayed alive
by specializing in doing the things that nobody
else will do. In aviation, what that means is
flying things nobody else wants to fly. That
might be things that go boom, or it might be
human beings that go boom. Essentially, it's
explosives and infectious disease, which who
the hell wants to be in a plane over the Atlantic
with either a load of dynamite or somebody with
SARS? That does not sound appealing to me, but
that's how they carve their niche. I found this
intriguing. We stayed in contact and I was in
Atlanta and he said, Hey, why don't you, why
don't you come out and we'll show you, we'll
show you what we, what we do. And I was walking
around their hangers and there was this rectangle
of this worn, battered, torn rectangle that was
about five feet wide and eight feet long on the
floor of this hangar. And I saw it and I was
like, what, what is, what is that? And they sort
of in passing said, yeah, well, the CDC asked
us to develop this biocontainment unit that would
fit inside of a jet. And we had no idea how to
do it, but we had to act very quickly to develop
this technology. And the first thing our engineers
did was they paced out exactly how little room
they had to work with on the floor of a hangar.
And they did it with duct tape and that's it
right there. And when he said that, what came
to my mind is that scene in Apollo 13 where that
engineer says, we've got to fit this, and it's
round and small, into this, and it's huge and
square, using nothing but this. And it's just
a pile of junk on a table. And we've got two
hours to do it, get started. That's how that
moment felt of an engineer laying duct tape on
the floor of a hangar to pace out how little
room he had in which to devise. a containment
system that could hold the scariest diseases
on earth for 10, 12, 24 hours of airborne flight.
And I knew that they had been involved in Ebola
evacuations. I didn't realize that they were
the Ebola evacuations, that they were it. But
that was the germ. The minute I heard that, I
said, right, like. I just knew instinctively.
I mean, you're a writer, like, you know, instinctively
when you're sitting on a story and that one scene,
the desperation of, you know, a handful of people
in a hangar pacing out how little room they have
to devise a piece of never before seen technology.
But, you know, everything else around the story
is going to be fascinating. So that was the germ
right there. So talk to me about the story then.
What is the mission that you write about in the
book? So in the summer of 2014, July of 2014,
this guy by the name of Dent Thompson, one of
the two brothers, Mark and Dent are the guys
who started this company called Phoenix Air.
Dent Thompson is sitting on his deck. He's on
vacation. It's late afternoon, like 3 .30, 4
o 'clock. He's got a beer and a magazine. He
walks outside. He sits down in a chair. He had
this. place in the Blue Ridge Mountains. When
you sit out of his deck, you could see for like
100 miles. His parents had built it. Nothing
but trees and hills, you know, full expanse of
the Tennessee Divide. And totally relaxed, his
phone rings. He looks down. It's the Washington,
D .C. area code. And he answers. And the voice
on the other end of the phone says to him, This
is William Walters from the State Department.
There are Americans. We're not sure how many.
Dying of Ebola in Africa. We're not exactly sure
where. We have tried every other means possible
to get them home and failed. You are their last
option. You have about five minutes to decide
if you'll do this. I'll call you back. Click.
And that is how their story begins. Not knowing
a damn thing about Ebola, not knowing if they
want to do this, if they should do this, if they
possibly can do this. But then also knowing that
Ebola kills in about 10 days and the people dying
were already several days into this 10 day window.
So if they were going to say yes, I had to say
yes now. And so the story is the next few days
following that phone call and this insane rescue
mission. to get these doctors home and to try
to save their lives in the midst of the deadliest
Ebola outbreak in world history. So talk to me
about who the doctors were and what they were
doing over there in the first place. So back
up really quickly, 1976, we discover Ebola. It
appears twice, almost simultaneously, once in
Sudan, another in... At that time, you know,
just Congo, now Democratic Republic of Congo.
And then disappears, basically runs through its
number of available hosts and goes back underground.
By the time scientists arrive, there's very little
for them to study. This pattern continues for
the next couple of decades. By 2014, we know
almost nothing about Ebola. We know that it's
a hemorrhagic fever. We know that we have some
suspicions about maybe where it comes from. We
don't know why it disappears. We don't know why
it necessarily comes back. Sometimes it will
be gone for a week and appear in another country.
Other times it will be gone for a year without
coming back. Mortality rates are all over the
place, sometimes 40%, sometimes 90%. So this
virus, it's kind of like a serial killer. When
it's not killing, it is gone. And then all of
a sudden it reemerges and immediately starts
ravaging the population. The one thing they thought
they understood, they didn't have a treatment,
no vaccine, no cure. The one thing they thought
they understood was that wherever it came from,
it was clearly, its vector only lived in incredibly
remote places. It was not thought that it could
appear in a highly developed area. So December
2013. a child gets it in West Africa, in Sierra
Leone, or excuse me, in Guinea, that kid becomes
essentially patient zero. The virus very quickly
spreads to three different countries. So almost
out of nowhere, Sierra Leone, Guinea, and Liberia
are completely overrun with this virus. Healthcare
systems in all three countries collapse. There
are local doctors and local nurses who are fighting,
but they're totally outmatched. Ebola is referred
to as a provider's disease because everything
that comes out of your body and everything comes
out of your body, blood, sweat, vomit, diarrhea,
everything, and it is a constant flow of fluids.
Those are all incredibly, incredibly, incredibly
infectious. It takes the tiniest, you know, tiniest
part per million in order to infect somebody.
And unfortunately, every drop of blood has millions
of parts per million. Each drop is overloaded
with this virus. So it takes almost nothing,
but it always arrives with everything. So those
doctors are getting sick. The world, governments,
generally speaking, militaries, nobody's really
taking note, not in Africa, not in Europe, not
in the US. Not in Asia. So a couple volunteer
organizations, Doctors Without Borders and an
organization called Samaritan's Purse are fighting
it. Two organizations in three countries. In
Liberia, Monrovia is the capital, a million people.
Samaritan's Purse is manning the last hospital
in that city. City of one million people, the
last hospital. And they are doing it with less
than a dozen doctors, most of them young. um
experienced with viruses but none of them have
ever worked with ebola the city is you know it
is close to complete collapse uh fear chaos violence
all the things that happen with every outbreak
are happening um and more and more and more patients
are showing up and there's only a couple doctors
in a very small treatment area to treat them
so they're totally overrun and that's That's
who these, so the two Americans who got sick,
one's a physician named Kent Brantley. One was
just a volunteer named Nancy Wrightbow. But they,
you know, neither one of them were epidemiologists.
Neither one of them were experienced in this.
But they were there when this outbreak hit and
they stayed to try to, you know, they were the
finger in the dam as the dam was collapsing around
them and they got sick. As we sit here now in
2026, do they know now what the origin of Ebola
was? Was it coming from other animals or was
it coming from some sort of untreated human waste?
I mean, some of the other places that we know
diseases originally sprouted from? Yeah, it comes
from animals. There's a bat that's sort of widely
considered kind of the main culprit. You can,
you know, maybe you eat the bat, you eat something
that ate the bat, you ate a piece of fruit that
the bat either bit or pooped on, and you get
it. But where did that bat, where did the bat
get it from? Why don't all the bats have it?
Why is it that when this virus goes away, we
don't, we can't find more bats with it? You know,
and then why does it come back to these bats?
There are certain mysteries that attend to this.
We certainly know a lot more now. We've developed
from the 2014 outbreak, we have developed medicines
to try to combat it. But really, this isn't a
virus that requires ICU care. It requires really
good supportive care, which in a country where
you have The doctor to resident ratio is really,
really, really low. And, you know, who's medical
in a country where the medical system is not
terribly robust. You know, that sort of ICU care
is just not going to be available. And so, you
know, if you talk to the people who go to these
places, what they will all tell you is that,
you know, in a perfect world, we'd be capacity
building in a perfect world. We'd be bringing,
you know. the people living in this country up
to speed with us we would you know like their
infrastructure would be building itself and they
would be creating a system in which they can
combat it absent that um then the rest of the
world is going to have to help you know and this
was you know sort of one of those examples of
we all waited far too long to step in and i think
maybe the presumption was well it's happening
there it's not going to get here but you know
each of these three countries has an international
airport And those planes are taking off every
day. And every country on earth has an international
airport. And those planes are taking off every
day. And if you think that someone's sick 5 ,000
miles away from you does not mean that there
won't be, in just a few hours, someone sick standing
right next to you, then maybe you haven't noticed
how air travel works. But, you know, it was sort
of, in a lot of ways, it was the perfect storm.
But we've learned some things from it. We've
gotten a little bit better. I mean, that was,
you know, one of the things that was helpful
was when these Americans came back, the hospital
that treated them was able to draw labs and able
to look at what was going on with them. And they
said, OK, all right, we can see what helps. And
so they were calling their counterparts in Africa
and saying, try this. And they would say, well,
you sure we can give that? We don't we don't
know what their labs work and what their labs
look like. And the doctors saying, trust me,
you know, like their labs are awful. Give this
and it will be helpful. We learned a lot, but
at the cost of many, many lives. So you mentioned
about this one organization being the kind of
Hail Mary when it came to aviation. What was
stopping other airlines from helping or military
or other organizations prior to that? For whatever
reason, maybe it's no great mystery, militaries
are not interested in getting involved in infectious
disease. To this day. This company is kind of
really the only answer when it comes to transporting
infectious disease by plane. Governments are
not horribly excited about the idea of it. The
WHO, who since they have people all over the
world, they don't do it. The CDC, the reason
that this technology exists is because the CDC
paid... this company, Phoenix Air, to create
this technology so that they wouldn't have to
do it. Governments don't really want to be in
the business of driving people, driving around
the world with SARS or measles or H1N1. That's
just not what they want to be doing. And, you
know, so it falls to, you know, it falls to someone
like this, someone who says, well, I've got this
little company and how do I compete with much
larger much richer companies? Well, I do things
that they're not willing to do. I fly dynamite.
I fly warheads. I fly batches of grenades. I
fly anything that will explode. And then I move
into the medical field and I fly the thing that
nobody else wants to fly, which is, of course,
people with something catching. So that was how
they did it. But it was because nobody else wanted
to do it. that they were able to you know make
this mark and that they happen to be in this
position to do this you know once the flights
are announced and everybody knows like okay this
is going to happen this is the thing um it immediately
turns into a huge problem i mean at one point
the state of maine threatens to arrest a state
department official for assisting with the flights.
The FBI is involved and they actually have helicopters
and vans following the ambulance carrying the
first patient through the city of Atlanta because
the fear was that someone, I mean, if you think
about this for a moment, the fear was that somebody
may kidnap this patient and try to weaponize
his body. And that was a legitimate fear. There
were at that hospital, Emory University Hospital,
where they were being treated. had rings of protesters
around it. They had to set up a separate post
office because they were getting so many unmarked
packages that arrived and nobody knew if any
of these things were going to be bombed. So each
of these packages had to be screened. There were
letters coming in. There were political figures
who were saying like, well, hold on, you can't
do this because if you treat Ebola and then you
wash your hands of Ebola blood, that blood is
going to go down the sink. And then that is going
to go into the drains and that's going to go
into the sewers and that's going to hit rats.
And your rats are going to have Ebola and rats
are going to come charging out of the streets
with Ebola. And you're going to have this huge.
I mean, and, you know, people are angry that
we're bringing them back. People are, you know,
some cases violently angry that we're bringing
them back. There are government agencies trying
to stop this from happening. There are private
citizens trying to stop this from happening.
The fear that that surrounded this was tremendous.
You know, it's like that scene. In Jaws, where
the mayor says, if you yell Barracuda, people
will say, huh? But if you yell shark, everybody
will panic. And it's the same way. If you yell
Marburg, nobody's going to say anything. But
if you yell Ebola, now you've got everybody's
attention. And, you know, this company, I mean,
these guys, what makes them so great is this
sort of group of cowboys who are just willing.
And in many cases, eager to do things that nobody
else wants to do. And so when a call comes in
to, you know, flying to Libya to pick up Muammar
Gaddafi's suitcase nuke or to fly an Ebola patient,
the response is always, yep, I'd like to do that.
You know, hey, thank God we have them. But yeah,
they're just sort of crazy guys who are always
willing to take on this impossible challenge.
I think it was when I was at Orange County. I
remember either one or two departments, I was
issued a class. It was a class B suit for Ebola
that we carried around. It was like a little
messenger bag, a little triangle one. Luckily,
I never had to deploy it. But I remember back
then looking it up and kind of what we were talking
about with COVID before. It seemed to be more
dangerous, again, to the immunocompromised that
you would see maybe in places that are malnourished,
that kind of thing. truth or is that a mythology
around around the danger of ebola in you know
for example a developed city in the u .s the
chances of catching it are huge if you're exposed
to it look at the two nurses in dallas if you
remember a guy flew in during this outbreak from
west africa he had it did not realize he had
it till he got to dallas was treated at a hospital
the hospital was not prepared to handle it and
two of the nurses treating him got sick both
of those nurses lived. And again, because aggressive
supportive care is what saves these people. You're
talking about a virus that either sort of simultaneously
causes bleeding and hypercoagulation, massive
amounts of fluid loss. So you have to monitor
electrolytes. You got to replace that fluid.
You got to deal with either Tons of clots or
tons of bleeding. And you've got to reduce the
oxygen demand. These are things that, you know,
a modern health care system is equipped to deal
with. But you have very little time before these
people begin to slip toward organ failure. It
happens, you know, it kills very, very quickly.
So, you know, you've only got a couple of days
to sort of bring somebody back from the brink
with supportive care. So in a place where that
just doesn't exist. it becomes a crapshoot and
it becomes a thing where you have an 80 % mortality
rate, which if you think about that for a moment,
you live in a street with 10 people, a virus
kills eight of them. I mean, that is terrifying.
And that's the thing that people are facing in
these three countries. Well, the irony is that's
the same ratio almost that obesity kills in America
when no one even raises an eyebrow on that. i
mean the premature deaths we have from that but
hey yeah well what about i mean you know you
mentioned two dallas two nurses in dallas yet
we have all these thousands thousands and thousands
of flights around the world what was it that
curbed that epidemic and then you know the spread
whether it was within africa itself or even overseas
so these two one by one The technology that Phoenix
Air had can only transport one person at a time.
So the rescue becomes this very complicated game
of international telephone. But within a couple
of weeks, they are saved. And the doctor, Kent
Brantley, went and testified before Congress.
And he said he basically shamed them. He said,
you have two volunteer aid organizations that
are the entirety of the world's Ebola response
while three nations are dying. You are all sitting
back and you are allowing the volunteers from
two different organizations to do your work for
you. Around this time, a man boarded a plane
in Monrovia. He flew into Nairobi, the most populous
city in Africa. And he had Ebola. And what was
lucky. was that you know that country um he flies
into kenya they they had um recently done a bunch
of polio eradication work and so they had this
really good contact tracing network and they
put it into use and they were able to trace his
contacts but there were still a number of people
who died um dozens got sick but only a couple
died it could have been significantly worse if
that had landed and they had not been ready to
use it i mean just i mean think for a moment
a city of nearly 30 million people what a virus
like that would do i mean it would just be it'd
be catastrophic um and i it was it was this you
know it was these americans coming home it was
the world seeing it was a the the world's foremost
expert um was a uh was a doctor from sierra leone
by the last name of khan who died And so, you
know, the world's experts were watching people
either, you know, doctors either get rescued
or killed from Ebola, from trying to stop Ebola
and realizing, OK, we're going to have to do
something. And then sort of being, you know,
basically being shamed and chastised for a slow
effort. They got involved. And then so the world
began sending people over to try to fight it.
And, you know, it was that effort. of bringing
in supplies bringing in all the things you would
need for aggressive supportive care and then
you know contact tracing and you know all the
all stuff we learned in or that we later use
in covet of you know like trying to keep people
separated and you know what what happens when
someone gets sick they want to go home and when
you go home and you're sick what happens your
family comes to you and help you so if you live
in a house with three generations living in that
house all those people are going to get sick
because you're sick and they're trying to help
you and so Trying to prevent that from happening,
keep the sick separated from the healthy, and
supporting and caring for the people once they
got it. It eventually works, but it took a year
to bring the whole thing to a close. We were
talking about the Man of Freedom House and the
lack of acknowledgement of their service. What
about... this organization, this crew and what
they did, how much exposure did it get? It's
funny. They, they're, you know, they're I think
they were quite snake bitten because when it
first happened, one, when their name got released
to the public, they were not ready for that.
And so suddenly their offices are surrounded
by news cameras. Two, you know, as I said, it
was a really angry response. And I think they
did their best to try to hide and say, well,
you know, like, look, we're just trying to help
here, man. Like, what are we supposed to do?
And, you know, they were also terrified. Their
employees were flying without knowing anything
about Ebola repeatedly into a hot zone to get.
to rescue people. There was a real fear that,
will they get sick? Will they make us sick? Will
we make a mistake and get somebody else sick?
When you talk to the doctors and nurses involved
in it, they will tell you that their number one
fear was contracting Ebola and then giving it
to somebody else. So they're sort of really inundated
with external and internal fear. And I think
they did their best to try to keep their heads
down. They wound up giving a press conference
just to sort of get the news off their back a
little bit. But, you know, by that point, the
world had sort of cued into, oh, there's this
thing going on. And, you know, the attention
was pretty nonstop and pretty glaring. Although,
you know, and rightly, a lot of the attention.
went to the people who were fighting it in Africa.
If you remember, Time named their people of the
year the doctors who were fighting Ebola. So
the African doctors, African nurses, foreign
doctors and nurses, Kent Brantley included among
them. So the world sort of paid a bit more attention
to the people who were on the ground in Africa
fighting the virus. And then finally, and then
we'll go to where people can find the book. What
impact, so you're bringing these doctors back,
you're able to draw bloods, now you can create
a treatment plan, understanding contact tracing.
What impact did that have back at ground zero
again on the people in Africa themselves? Huge.
I mean, one, it's telling people that, hey, the
world is paying attention. Two, let's just say
you live in some place where... wherever, you
know, wherever your hometown is, there's an outbreak
there and people come to help and the people
who come immediately get sick. Among the first
things that would go through your mind is, well,
we needed them and they're sick, so they're no
longer being helpful, but will anybody else come
behind them? Because the last group of volunteers
all got sick. So it was real concern that if
you just allow the people coming in to help to
die. then nobody else is going to come in to
help. And this region is in real trouble. So
I think some of it was a sense of hope that the
world was both awakening to their plight, but
also was dedicated to doing their best to keep
doctors safe, both African and foreign doctors.
But, you know, I think a hospital system with...
all of the benefits of a modern icu being able
to look at all the labs and and everything that's
going on and every day they were having phone
calls and they would call back up and they would
say okay give this medicine we gave this medicine
today because what we noticed was that you know
the liver labs were way out of whack and so we're
immediately giving this to keep that under control
so even though you guys aren't able to draw those
labs just go ahead and give this medication so
they were sort of able to guide the treatment
based on what they were seeing on the ground
knowing that they were essentially serving the
same patient population um and that was a big
boost um to it but then again honestly so much
of it came down to the world finally saying okay
we'll help you know and sending sending their
experts and their supplies to try to you know
keep this um get this virus under control beautiful
so the community that we talked about a while
ago yeah who'd have thought Exactly. Crazy. And
if we all roll our sleeves up and help each other,
the world gets better. It's bizarre. Yeah, it
is. So the book is called No One's Coming. Tell
people when it's coming out and where they can
find it. Publishes March 3rd. You can pre -order
now, which, you know, I've been doing my best
to tell people because, you know, why would anybody
know the boring intricacies of publishing? But,
you know, a publisher. puts their effort behind
something based on the excitement it generates
before it comes out. So all the help we can get
now is huge. So pre -orders, you know, love them,
love them. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, any independent
local bookstore that you have, Books A Million,
it's everywhere. It can be ordered from all those
places. And if you order it now, it'll be ready
for you. um on march 3rd and you know if you
do it pre -order it um email me your you know
your screenshot and i will use your address to
ship you a sticker and a signed book plate as
my thank you for for helping the effort um but
i think this is an important story you know it's
about a group of people um who risk their lives
to save strangers you know they their philosophy
long before this thing came up was that, you
know, we go to difficult places to do difficult
things. And they really had to put their money
where their mouth is in this particular case,
because unlike many other situations, they were
legitimately risking their lives to do this.
And we talk about it all the time in first responder
and EMS community, you know, that, you know,
sort of we run in while everybody else runs out.
Well, this is a story of people really doing
that. And in, you know, in sort of very dramatic
fashion. And, you know, I think it's something
that, you know, a lot of people could use. Obviously,
if you're a firefighter, if you're a paramedic,
you're doing that. But not everybody else is.
Not everybody always sees that. And, you know,
I think it's such an important story, particularly
now. I think there's a lot, you know, a lot of
questions about the future of public health and
all these things. Preparedness is everything.
You know, a virus overtakes a country because
it. Because it's not prepared, whether that's
its own fault or not. Somebody is there to step
in to save your life because they are prepared.
You know, that is the difference in, you know,
in whether or not people live or dies is our
preparedness. And, you know, it's really at the
heart of this story is those two things, you
know, a willingness to sacrifice for others and
being ready for even the unlikely scenario that
we all know eventually. We'll be here. Viruses
do not live on a timeline. They live on a spiral.
And everything that has been will be back again.
And we could put our heads in the sand or we
can acknowledge that it's a reality and we can
try to prepare ourselves and fight back. Absolutely.
And GLP -1s on their own are not the solution.
They just make drug companies even more money.
Yeah. Bang that drum, baby. All right. So that's
your book, American Sirens and Thousand Naked
Strangers. I'm sure I'm assuming you can find
the same places as well. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Brilliant. So first of the closing questions,
is there a book written by someone else that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
discussion today or completely unrelated. Oh,
all right. Gosh, so many. Surrounded by my books,
let me think of the one. so here's one so this
guy is a fantastic reporter and he wrote this
book about this massive wildfire in in canada
in western canada was moving so quickly that
a house would go from perfectly fine to nothing
but ashes in under five minutes And he talks
about the conditions that created that fire.
Again, a lack of preparedness in the community
to deal with it and what the implications are
for the future and how we need to look at these
things. I mean, we just watched Los Angeles burn,
huge swaths of it flooding in North Carolina.
Natural disasters are... a fact of life and you
know not something that we we put a lot in a
lot of forethought into but this book such an
incredible story of this you know just have the
firefighters who are doing what they can to try
to save their community um in you know impossible
odds it's a it's incredible like i cannot recommend
it enough and just because most people will be
listening this on audio so it's called fire weather
ah yeah i didn't think about that it's called
fire weather uh the writer is john valiant He
actually wrote this insane story about a tiger.
You can also read that book. It's called The
Tiger. Way more than you ever wanted to know
about tigers, but it will blow your mind. Brilliant.
Well, what about television documentaries or
films? I recently watched a documentary about
Seymour Hersh. He's the reporter who broke. The
Massacre at My Lai and so many other things.
He is, you know, he's sort of been a thorn in
the side of practically every American administration
going back to Lyndon Johnson, or I guess every
American administration going back to Lyndon
Johnson. And it's such a great depiction of someone
who is pissed off by what he sees happening around
him and keeps digging into it. But also, it shows
you what we're losing. All of these local newspapers
are going under. And I can tell you, as someone
who used to write for a local paper, a perfect
example, there was a chemical company that spilled
into a creek. And so local people had me come
out. And so I went. I wrote a story about it
and the chemical company was not happy because
they knew that I would write this story and then
the larger Atlanta paper would read this story
and they would do something on it. And then the
TV news would see this article and they would
do things on it. And the whole community would
know what happened. The whole city of Atlanta
would know what would happen. And they would
face backlash. Politicians would have no choice
because people were angry that they would have
to do something. All of that, that sort of watchdog
protecting you, that is gone. You know, when
there's no local paper to let you know that the
mayor or the city council or the county commission
or a local legislator is ripping you off, they
can do it with impunity. And that's what's going
to be happening. That's probably what is happening.
When I was researching American sirens, I relied
heavily on Pittsburgh Post -Gazette. That newspaper
closes operations permanently this May. That
will be gone. That record of modern history will
disappear. And, you know, there's a ton of mistrust
in the media. I think a lot of it misplaced.
But, you know, that is who lets you know that
you're mayor. is ripping you off. And if you
think, we all know politicians are dirty. The
only thing that has ever kept them in check is
the fear of being outed. There's nothing to out
them now. So nothing will keep them in check.
To me, that is a very concerning development
for the future. So the documentary about Seymour
Hersh was both incredibly enlightening, but also
made me a little nervous because... Who's going
to be out there watching out for the rest of
us going forward? I don't know. I interviewed
a reporter, Larry Doyle, who was a journalist
back in the heyday. So for example, the level
of trust that he had, he was the first person
to interview Nelson Mandela when he was released
from Robben Island. So that pretty much speaks
for itself. And I was asking him, what happened?
What happened? How is it now that what used to
be called news is... Left and right, which that
shouldn't even be applied to a news station,
but it is. The screen's divided into four and
four assholes are arguing with each other, giving
their opinions. It has nothing to do with news.
And it's all either obviously paid by the left
or paid by the right. And he was saying that
TV used to be or news used to be under an umbrella
of a bunch of other corporations. And so the
other businesses would make the money. And the
news just told the news and they had big budgets
to travel and, you know, do these big exposés.
And he said it was kind of like the Murdoch generation.
And they turned around one day and said, well,
the news needs to make money. And that's when
you got the clickbait stories. And if there's
one thing we could do in this country with just
to insert the concept to everyone's mind, the
only fucking thing that people care about and
CNN or Fox is that the advertising space in the
middle. That is it. That is their only actual
focus is to sell ads between Wanky Story 1 and
Wanky Story 2. If they could see that, then we
would dismantle that part of media and then bolster,
like you're talking about, the local media and
arguably the middle of the road, like the BBC
used to be at least, like those kind of outlets
so that we can have impartial reporting on, hey,
this guy was on an island or this guy did whatever.
And so we can hold these people accountable and
make sure that we don't have the wrong kind of
human in a horrendous position of power. But
as long as we have this model where the angrier
the viewer is, the more glued to the TV they
are, therefore they're going to watch the fucking
drug commercial. This is it. It's completely
broken. And then now, as you see, people that...
you know, subscribe to one or the other politically
are slowly then dismantling, whether it's books
in schools or news stations or PBS or, you know,
the Kennedy Center. And they're just taking all
these cultural pieces apart, removing plaques
with the history of America. You know, it's so
obvious, but people are so bought into whatever
trench of their World War I warfare mentality.
that they can't see the game as a whole. And
again, like we said, they can't see the bird.
All they can see is the one wing. And we're not
getting news. And this is why there's distrust.
There's not distrust from real journalism. There's
distrust because it is, you know, untrustworthy
because the only thing they're trying to do is
get you to watch commercials. That is it. Yeah.
No, it's a real problem. And I don't know how
you fix it, but we're all... We're heading to,
you know, good things don't come from this, you
know. There used to be a phrase, I'm trying to
think of it, I've drawn a blank on it, but, you
know, was it democracy dies in the dark? When
all these news outlets go under, that's the darkness,
you know, that is allowing your government. whether
it's local or national, to do whatever it wants.
And it's always going to act in its own self
-interest and not yours. And if there's any doubt
in that, you know, you can look at there's so
many examples from history of times when an industry
was totally unregulated or they were, you know,
we talked about the insurance industry. Government's
quite happy to keep doing what it's doing because
it makes a ton of money from insurance. The prison
industry, their lobbyists kick a ton of money
into government. And so we pay ridiculous amounts
of money to have nonviolent offenders in jail
for a very long period of time. And it's crazy
expensive to put somebody in jail. All the stuff
that we do, and you kind of look at it and you
go, they're enriching themselves. And they have
been for a very long time. you know and you're
just sitting back and you know the only thing
we ever had was the ability to out them and we're
losing that um so i do i fear for what what that's
going to look like um in the future yeah i mean
you look at the the precursor of a lot of bad
things and i know people always point to you
know the the holocaust but it's a very good example
it is it's painting painting the enemy it's it's
removing communication it's you know polarizing
uh you know a nation and it's all the things
that we see and it's not just left you know it
i mean just not just right it's right left it's
the same same exact game and you look at the
given example look at purdue pharma that to this
day are responsible for a hundred thousand american
deaths through the opioid crisis that was an
fda approved drug That person who approved it
then went and worked for Purdue Pharma. And Purdue
Pharma to this day still give millions and millions
of dollars to politicians on the left and the
right. None of that is serving the American people.
No, and that book about the Sackler family and
just how it all happened. And there have been
a million TV shows, a million documentaries,
a million books about the opioid crisis. But
yeah, that's a perfect example of... You know,
everybody knew that what was happening was wrong
and it was going to be a problem. But people
were making a ton of money and they were OK with
it. You know, there was a time when we all said,
you know, there's no way the U .S. government
was involved in importing cocaine into the United
States. But we all can look at back now and actually
know we really were. And, you know, it was all
part of Iran -Contra and all these bananas things
that were going on. But, you know, we're paying
for arms to do this and we're, you know, supporting
this government. We're not supporting that government.
We're trying to get these guys overthrown. We're
trying to get these guys to grow. And part of
the way we're doing it is through drug money.
And yes, eventually, you know, we sort of cut
Noriega off at the knees, but not until after
the crack epidemic had been a thing. You know,
your government is not necessarily your friend.
It is an incredibly powerful, like it's that
bully, you know, like maybe you like him because
he's sort of charming, but you're also a little
bit scared of him because, you know, like at
some point he's going to turn that negative attention
on me and you never know when it's going to be
and you never know when you're going to get punched
by this guy. That's how the government feels.
And I do, they need to be held accountable and
all too often they just aren't. And I think what
gets me is there are examples of great leaders
around the world. And I think a lot of people
at the moment, especially, you know, look at
Scandinavia. I mean, they have very low violence.
They have very low recidivism, very low deaths
on the road, very healthy population. You know,
is it perfect? No. I mean, there are gangs in
Sweden. It's kind of coming up at the moment.
I don't even know what the backstory of that
is. You know, there was a horrendous shooting
in Norway on the summer camp. So there's always
still those things. But overall, they're doing
things really well. So what are they doing right?
that we're not doing here. So this is one of
the things about the show is I get the people
from these, you know, these nations and these
systems that are working well. And then the question
is, well, the rising tide lifts all ships. We
have an opioid crisis. Portugal reversed theirs
through decriminalization and bolstering mental
health and addiction and job creation and housing.
Why are we not copying Portugal's addiction model,
Norway's prisons, Finland's education system,
Japan's, you know, philosophy on food and obesity.
It's already figured out. We just have to have
the humility to say, well, let's do that. But
as we alluded to, if there are organizations
that are lining politicians' pockets that are
making billions of dollars from American disease
and death, then until the country says enough
is enough, we're just going to keep rolling over
and accepting it. Yeah. Somehow we've allowed
them to trick us into thinking that A universal
health care system is going to turn us into the
USSR. You know how. How we said, you know how
this thing of like, oh, it's communism and socialism.
OK, well, I don't know about that, but I know
I know Canadians are horrible people and they
have a better system than we do. And the English,
their system seems to work. It doesn't bankrupt
people. Is it perfect? No, but what we have is
currently not perfect. Not only is it imperfect.
But it can bankrupt people. You know, our infant
mortality rate is not good. You know, there are
a lot of developed nations that beat us there.
Maybe there's something we can learn. But the
people who make those laws, by the way, the same
people who are allowed to vote on their own raises
every year, the people who make those laws are
getting a ton of money from insurance companies.
And so how do you convince people that you getting
all this money to vote against their best interest
is actually in their best interest? generated
boogeyman. And you say, well, it's communism.
Well, guess what? There's this thing called Medicare.
We already provide health care to Americans in
need. If you have kidney failure, you know what
we do? We pay for your dialysis. Wouldn't have
been a whole lot cheaper if we were paying for
your lisinopril. Because I can tell you now,
dialysis is expensive. And kidney failure leads
to heart failure. And we have to pay for all
of that we pay for. And all of your ICU care
stays, we pay for. Would have been so much cheaper
to pay for your lisinopril. But we didn't because
that would have been communism. But now we will
pay for your dialysis. We will pay for your heart
failure. And we will pay for your transplant.
And we'll pay for your multiple hospital stays.
We'll pay for all of your other medications because
we didn't want to pay for your lisinopril. Because
somebody convinced us that that was the only
way to do it, even though it's not the only way
to do it. It's just the only way to keep that
company very wealthy. It's a frustrating place
to find yourself in. But that's where we are.
Well, coming from the UK, I was born in the 70s,
so I got to see it before it started being picked
apart and the pressure of privatization coming
from the States. But when you have a national
healthcare system, because socialized medicine
is used deliberately to sound like socialism,
to sound like you're talking about, that there's
nurses goose -stepping up and down the ER. But
if you have a tax -based healthcare system, then
what does that do? drives you to make your nation
as healthy as possible so that you use healthcare
as little as possible. It's just basic economics,
supply and demand. When you have a profit -based
healthcare system like America, what does it
do? The opposite is also true. It drives you
to keep Americans fat and sick so that you have
an addict for life. And with the Singapore example,
One step even better is that the person never
gets obese or hypertensive or whatever the disease
process is in the first place. And so they don't
need it. They need help with childbirth. They
need help with maybe palliative care at the end
of their life. They get hit by a bus. But the
chronic disease is so much lower when you, like
Scandinavia, when you just have things in place
to make people healthier in general, clean food
and exercise. And Finland, in the Finnish schools,
They look at the child holistically, the whole
child. They have lots of recess. They bolster
schools in areas where they're financially struggling
rather than penalizing them like they do here
in America. So when you invest in your profession,
the same way as I harp on with the work week
and the fire service, when you invest in a fourth
shift and you have healthy firefighters with
ample rest and recovery, it saves money hand
over fist downstream. But someone told me, Patrick
Pianza, I think it was, the writer of Code 3,
who also was a big fan of national health. He
said, I think it was him. Maybe it was someone
else. Anyway, 20 % of our GDP is in healthcare.
So when people are like, oh, we don't have the
money for it. You do. It's just being pissed
away through killing Americans. That's basically
it. So you front load that immense amount of
money. Imagine what you could do, not only in
the health of your nation, but in education and
security and bolstering the first responders
and all these other things. But the problem is
it's all leaving our pockets and going into these
predatory businesses. And it's not at the benefit
of us whatsoever. Not one bit. I was in Mexico
when my EpiPen broke. I'm allergic to bees. So
I walk into a Mexican pharmacy. If you've ever
bought an EpiPen, they're like 500 bucks. Maybe,
I think there's a coupon. You might be able to
get one for 350. Once a doctor tried to charge
me 700 for one. I walked into a pharmacy in Mexico,
asked for Epi. He gave me, the guy behind the
counter gave me a styrofoam cube with 30 ampoules
of epinephrine in it for 30 bucks. Enough to
save me from a million bee stings. Is that your
next book? Yeah. Why am I paying $500 for epi
here and, you know, $30 for 30 ampules in Mexico?
What's wrong with that system? As someone who
grew up and has really only lived in a capitalist
society, I'm quite happy in the U .S. I like
the things we have. I like how we incentivize
hard work and all these other things. I'm a believer
in the system. I'm also a believer in that any
system can be abused and that there are a lot
of people out there who aren't looking out for
everybody else or only looking out for themselves.
And there are instances. where that really shows
that i think healthcare industry is one of them
the fact that an epipen is 500 here and then
you walk you in in el paso your epipen would
be 500 bucks walk across the border and you're
getting 30 ampules for 30 um that says something
um and it should be it should be eye -opening
and it should make people really friggin angry
um but it doesn't seem to uh for and i and i
And I think it's because we're so hidden behind
our own walls that we just can't. It's really
hard to break through. And I think they've done
that to us. They've sort of spun us in circles
and made us very defensive and everybody sort
of crawled back to their corners. But we put
ourselves in the corner. We allowed ourselves
to be backed into the corner. There isn't any
threat that's put us in this corner. We've backed
into these corners. And so we feel like, well,
this is it. I'm as far back as I can go, and
so I've got to fight anything that comes to me.
But, you know, somebody clicked on the light,
you just see four people standing in a corner
and nothing else, you know. Four people ready
to fight to the death with no enemy in front
of them. And I think we'd all feel a little bit
embarrassed if they did that, but, you know,
that's where we are. Hopefully we can, you know,
we can begin to make some change. I'm going to
go with your hope, man. I'm going to go with
your hope. Let's go grab a light bulb. All right.
Well, the next question, is there a person that
you'd recommend to come on this podcast as a
guest to speak to the first responders, military
and associated professions of the world? I'm
trying to think of who. We're not going to try
and get John Moon on, so that'll be one of them.
John Moon would be great. John Moon would be
fantastic. You know, I. I would say that I know
a lot of people who volunteer in other countries
and in the U .S. and they go all around, medical
volunteers. And I'm always intrigued by their
perspective of seeing people in distress from
all different cultures, the unifying nature of
this stuff, but also the ways in which. different
people are handling things. And I always think
they have such a great perspective. So, you know,
a friend of mine, Ryan Kerr, former paramedic,
current ICU nurse, he's always in some other
war zone or disaster zone. And I think that that
sort of perspective of, you know, what we all
collectively face and the ways in which we can
do it better. I think it's always helpful. Brilliant.
Absolutely. All right. Well, the last question
before we make sure everyone knows where to find
you, what do you do to decompress? I swim a lot.
I find myself swimming more and more. Maybe it's
the working less. I try to, there's something
about, you know, endurance exercise. You know,
that first like five minutes where you're like,
today's not the day. I can't do it today. I'm
going to have to quit. And you push through it.
And then you get to that like 10 minute mark
where you just like some other gear kicks in
and you're like, oh, I can do this for the next
three hours. And your mind just really empties
out. And by the time I get out of the pool, I'm
like rubbery with exhaustion. It's such a great
stress reliever. And it just. empties your mind
in the same way that standing in the shower empties
your mind. And suddenly all these clear thoughts
come in and there is no, you know, there's no
phone stimulation. There is no computer simulation.
All those things are literally impossible. I
mean, that's the thing about a run. You could,
you can still have your phone and be doing, you
know, but in a pool, you know, that those don't
exist. And so to me, that is like to just totally
be alone with my own thoughts. It's even sensory
deprivation. You know, you can't hear. It's a
perfect exercise. I know now you can have the
headphones that go in the pool. And I think I've
even seen goggles that have like, I don't know
exactly what they're displaying, but they're
displaying something, whether it's the time of
your workout. But yeah, exactly. Isn't there
something more important than data? Like, is
that really all you are as a data point? I don't
know. Yeah, I agree completely. There's 10 ,000
years of evolution packed into your brain. Let
that breathe a little bit. I was talking to my
wife yesterday. I think it was her. I eat differently
every day depending on what my body seems to
want. There's days where I'm just jonesing for
red meat. There's other days where a little bit
of toast and I'm good for eight hours. It's bizarre.
But if you're just constantly, again, locked
into an app or whatever. Absolutely helps some
people. Great tool. But I think if you're too
focused in an external device telling you what
you should be doing, you're not listening to
the greatest computer on the planet, which is
your own body. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree.
All right. Well, just reiterate then where people
can find the book and all the books, plural,
excuse me. And then if they want to reach out
to you, learn about you, where the other places
online. So I, the books, the books are anywhere.
A Thousand Naked Strangers, American Sirens are,
you can have them today. They're audio, they're
ebook. And then they're also, you know, hard
copy, paperback in any bookstore, any place that
you get books. No One's Coming is available for
pre -order. There is an audio book if you're
into those things. I know a lot of people love
those. I can't personally listen to a book. I've
got to hold a book. It is pre -orderable now
in all its forms from anywhere that you want
to get it. And then, you know, I'm around. I
try to, you know, pass along information, what's
going on with me. And, you know, I'm on Instagram
and Facebook and look for my name and you will
find me there. And, you know, I'm always happy
to engage. Did you narrate any of your audio
books? No, I haven't. And, you know, which I'm
fine with. but at the same time sometimes i listen
to one and i'm like oh this thing's overly dramatic
you know then the door opened and you're like
oh but but you know i think that's what people
want i think i don't know they want a certain
experience so um i'm happy to give it to them
yeah i i challenge you to read one yourself one
day one of your books because i found that i
was the first one i just read because i was completely
broken you know they were they were Literally,
biography stories, my stories, and then it went
to a takeaway. It was obesity or mental health,
whatever it was. The second one was a fiction.
I'm like, okay, well, now I'm going to have to
pay an actor because I couldn't possibly do this.
But then you're looking at it, kind of to your
point, how is anyone really going to know what
this looks like? Because I can see it. I can
smell it. I can taste it. I can hear the screams,
et cetera. Are they really going to be able to
relay what this is really about? And so super
uncomfortable. I had to do different kind of
voice intonations and accents and things. But,
you know, the takeaway was, you know, what is
what is more important? You know, having air
quotes, polished professional voice actor doing
it or being engaged with the person who actually
wrote it. So it'd be interesting if, you know,
maybe not this book, but the next one, if you
end up narrating that, what you think as far
as the the outcome, because even my own family
said that they. stopped hearing my voice after
a few minutes and they just got pulled into the
story and if my own family had that then i guess
you know our imposter syndrome of our you know
which is which was living rent -free in my head
that oh i'm gonna sound like a twat when i'm
reading this um you know this is your story so
you know one would also argue well there's no
better person on the planet to read your book
than the person who wrote it that's interesting
yeah i don't know Maybe, maybe, maybe it's a
lot of time with myself. Yeah. And it's, it's
weird as well because writing I found cathartic,
but reading it, especially with emotion when
you're, you're not, you're not doing a play,
but you know, you're bringing these pages to
life. It almost had the reverse effect where
you you're actually, it's so visceral as you're
trying to kind of, you know, relay the story
vocally that it almost brought. some of the trauma
back and not in a bad way but it you didn't finish
and go okay i feel a little better you're like
oh actually i feel a bit worse now let me go
do something that'll make me feel better let
me go for a swim so that was kind of interesting
to see as well that that writing everything flowed
out but reading and kind of yeah reading and
almost reliving these scenes in the storytelling
way almost had the reverse effect it was draining
Yeah. I'm not really selling it to you though.
That's how I envisioned it being. That's how
I envisioned it being. So you're confirming my
bias. All right. Well, Kevin, I want to thank
you so much. I mean, the last conversation was
phenomenal. Obviously we took a lot deeper dive
into the last two books, but this was really
fascinating to revisiting some of those topics
and also learning from scratch, you know, the
latest book and what these incredible people
did during Ebola. I want to thank you so much
for being so generous with your time and coming
back onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Yeah, man. Thanks. Great to be here every time.