Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
Wayne and Regina Smith. Now, I know Wayne and
Regina from Iron Legion Strength and Combat,
where we've trained together for over 10 years.
Wayne has been in corrections for almost 30 years,
is a law enforcement instructor, defensive tactics
instructor, and a member of a special team. Regina
has been in correction for over 22 years. is
a sergeant for Marion County Sheriff's Office
and a captain for the Florida Department of Corrections.
As you can imagine, the dynamic not only of their
experience, but being in corrections as a married
couple, this was an incredible conversation.
We discuss a host of topics from their journeys
into corrections, some of the immense challenges
for our correctional officers, breaking the recidivism
in Florida prisons, gangs, addiction, mentorship.
the importance of fitness, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
over twelve hundred episodes now. So all I ask
in return is that you help share these incredible
men and women stories so I can get them to every
single person on planet Earth who needs to hear
them. So with that being said, I introduce to
you. Wayne and Regina Smith. Enjoy. Wayne and
Regina, I want to start by saying... thank you
for coming to the house i know this has been
long time coming i think it's literally in years
that we've we've tried to get this going so i
want to firstly welcome you to my home so for
people listening um obviously as i was saying
before we hit record when people are in law enforcement
and corrections there's some areas obviously
that we don't want to just put out there but
for people listening where roughly would they
be finding you if you were at home like as far
as where in the country um I guess you could
say in Ocala, just outside Ocala. Regina would
be right in Ocala, as far as the city goes. But
we are outside. Where I work at is outside of
Ocala in a small area called Lowell, Florida.
Yeah. And we have exactly three institutions
out there, two female institutions and a male
institution in that area. And we also have a
juvenile, and I just thought about a juvenile
institution in that area. Well, again, Being
mindful of not going too deep, I'll ask you the
kind of background questions just so that people
can have an understanding of the journey that
you came through. So starting with you, Wayne,
tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Okay. I was born in Gainesville,
Florida, but I was raised in a small town called
Archer, Archer, Florida, which is like maybe...
15 minutes outside of Gainesville. I was raised
with my brother, who's four years younger than
I am, my mother and father. My father worked
for the VA hospital in Gainesville. He was a
custodian there. And my mom worked for the University
of Florida at Shands, and she was head of housekeeping
in that area. So both of them kind of worked
in the custodial type field as I grew up. Other
than that, it was just always just me and my
brother. And then my parents, until my parents
divorced. But we was adult by the time they divorced.
They didn't divorce when we were kids. So we
had a full childhood with them. I think our custodians
in the hospitals are the true unsung heroes.
Oh, yeah. Being a paramedic and you guys seeing
what happens in the jail too. Talk to me about
some of the stories you heard from your parents
and this kind of highlight. you know how important
they are in that system well um just most of
the story is just you know people sometimes they
complain about how their areas are clean but
they don't understand how hard it is to get certain
people in those areas a lot of times um uh my
mom she started out like doing a lot of the cleaning.
She was a regular custodian. Then she worked
her way up to be a supervisor in the department.
And my dad, he was just one of them types. He
didn't care. He just went to work, and then he
did his side jobs. He did a lot of floors and
stuff outside of his regular job. So he did,
like, cleaning work. He worked for the post office.
He had three different post offices that he worked
for, that he cleaned up for them also. So he
worked all the time. They never really talked
about issues other than people complaining at
the wrong time or just asking for outrageous
stuff for them to get done and they don't have
the means to get it done. Or they're not even
paying for them to even do these jobs, but they're
always asking them to do it. So that was like
the biggest issue with them. Was your home immaculate
or were they so sick of cleaning that? it wasn't
tidy no honestly no every weekend everybody had
a job every weekend you got up got dressed and
got out the house because mom was going to clean
the house um she cleaned a lot because my dad
smoked so a lot of times he smoked in the house
so a lot of times she liked to air a house out
every week she grew plants and stuff there were
certain plants that she grew that um they were
basically made they could soak up a lot of the
toxins and stuff from the smoke because she wanted
to make sure we didn't catch cancer from him
smoking in the house all the time. So every week
she would open up all the doors, did a house
cleaning. But we had to get out and we did something
in the yard between mowing the lawn, raking,
or we didn't go work in the fields with the other
parts of our family. So we had a lot of family
that actually did field work a lot, loading water
mills, picking tobacco. picking peanuts, all
that kind of stuff throughout the season. So
we always had a job every weekend. It wasn't
just sitting up watching cartoons all day. We
had to get up and go. That is hard work, too.
I grew up on a farm and it didn't have crops
per se. So it was more like stones. We'd pick
up stones so that they could grow more stuff.
But, you know, lambing and all that stuff. But,
yeah, I think that kind of work, I don't think
people realize. you know how hard it is yes i
hated um tobacco it was the worst i would rather
do watermelons all year round yeah that tobacco
just itch your skin and it just was just it just
didn't like picking it every year but other than
that it was just hot work that's all it was yeah
and what were you playing and doing as far as
sport and exercise when you're in the school
ages I played football, basketball, and ran track
every year. I did a lot of that just so I didn't
have to go home a lot of times. Because I know
if I went home, there was something I was going
to have to do. I loved playing football, and
I loved playing football, and I ran track. But
I played basketball just to fill up that section
in between football and track. So I did that
every year. I played all the way from elementary
school all the way through high school. I went
to play college ball, but got homesick, came
back, which was kind of silly, but I was very
far away at that time. Whereabouts? Kansas. Okay.
Yeah. Bethel College, Kansas. And I really didn't
stay long. I was just like out of there. Played
semi -pro for a year. And then ever since then,
I've just liked working. What position in football?
In high school, I played fullback and linebacker.
When I went to college, they were going to move
me to cornerback because I wasn't big enough
for linebacker. But I was going to play cornerback.
And to see my pro, I played cornerback in that
field. I played some running back through high
school, which is, you know, we get the ball more,
but fullback most of the time. Yeah. Well, Regina,
before we move forward in Wayne's kind of career
progression, let's start with you. Tell me where
you were born. Tell me a little about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
I grew up in Reddick, Florida, Lowell. My mom
and my father. My father was more of the breadwinner.
He was a carpenter at Gainesville School Board,
and he was there for 36 years. My mom was more
of a housekeeper for doctors and lawyers and
stuff like that. So my father was more the breadwinner.
It was nine of us, but I only grew up with two
sisters and a brother. So it was really four
of us out of the nine of us that really grew
up together. Is that because of age or just kind
of families moving apart? Just families moving
apart. Okay. Gotcha. What were you playing as
far as sports and exercise back then? I went
really big on sports growing up in school. So
what did you do? Were you a musician, artist?
What was your outlet? Just trying to get through
school. That's it. And get out of it. That was
it. I understand. All right. Well, let's stay
with you then. So when you were in the school
ages, were you dreaming of corrections or was
there something else? Not at all. Never in my
life would I have thought, you know, do you even
go into correction? I have no family law enforcement.
It was not even a thought. thought process. You
know, I was thinking more of nursing or something
like that as I grew up, but it didn't work out
that way. So now I'm in corrections. So how did
you find yourself in there? Where did you go
when you graduated? Was it straight into corrections
or was it something else first? No, I tried nursing
first, CNA. Then it didn't work out too well.
Then I got pregnant and I was like, you know
what? I got to choose something that I like that's
more of me. And I chose corrections. Okay. Well,
Wayne, let's catch you up then. So you do semi
-pro ball. you're not a fan of um you know toto
and dorothy in kansas so you come back here how
did you find yourself into the world of corrections
um i i was working like three jobs i worked at
publix tj maxx and then i was like doing a lot
of side jobs and my brother he worked in corrections
first and he wanted me to do but i i didn't want
to do corrections at all that was like the last
thing on my mind but at the time um my aunt actually
made me Sign up for corrections. She brought
me an application to my job at TJ Maxx. She said,
I'm tired of you working three jobs, killing
yourself. You can get all the money that you
make in these three jobs at this one place. You
got three days to fill this application out.
You better call me in three days and it better
be in. If it's not, I'm going to kick your ass.
Sounds like she should have been in corrections.
And my aunt is like all of five foot two or whatever.
Loved her to death because she's always been
like a second mom to me past my mom. So I got
it in. I put the application in. And once I got
it in, finally, you know, got the job and everything.
Almost quit the first week. But that's what got
me into creation. Yes. So that was what I was
going to ask. So staying with you. not having
any history, and I'd never been a firefighter,
so I kind of went in blind as well. When you
first went through the front door, what, if any,
were the misconceptions of the job? And then
let's stay with what you just said. What made
you almost tap out after a week? Well, I don't
even think it was a full week. Like the first
day, I almost quit. After doing the whole process
and everything and finally actually walked on
the actual compound, it was almost overwhelming.
Because, you know, growing up and stuff like
that, you hear about, you know, how many people
of my color end up in prison. And then to actually
see it firsthand, like, almost took me out. Because
I didn't really understand until I saw it. And
just walking around and seeing the number of
men, black men, that was in there just almost
was overwhelming at the time. So it took me a
little bit of soul searching to the point of
their story is not my story because I'm here
for a reason. They were here because of their
reason and I'm here for another reason, which
is a lot more important than worrying about the
dynamics of who is in there. It's the fact of
what I was doing it for. So that was like the
biggest thing I had to overcome in the beginning.
It's just the dynamics of just walking and seeing.
two three four hundred black men just in blues
walking around and you know they're not going
home like right now so that was like the biggest
issue that i had to overcome working there Back
then, because how many years ago was that? 29
years. So back then, first impression, what were
you thinking and what were you told was the reason
behind the disproportionate number of African
-Americans being in there? Just, you know, the
rumors that they have or they're picked on. What's
the word I'm looking for? You just get picked
out just because of the color of your skin. Prejudice.
Prejudice and stuff like that. So then to see
it, it was like, oh, there must be something
to that. It has to be because there's no reason
why this man is going to be in there. But after
a while, you start learning. When you start going
through what they're in there for, and then sometimes
you just look, you need to be in here. There's
no reason for you to be walking on the street.
There are some, you're like, okay, that probably
would have been much, but that was like the biggest
thing. You hear that, you know, you got picked
out just because of the color of your skin. That's
how you ended up, or somebody set you up, or
they didn't even listen to what your defense
said. It just wasn't what their original said.
So I think that was the biggest thing. hit me
first when i got there so i was like well okay
it must have been something to that so why am
i trying to get into this so that was the biggest
thing i had to get past first walking in the
door regina first impressions when you first
started Not really. You know, it didn't really.
It was more of seeing so many females because
I never really worked at another unit besides
females until I got to the jail. So it was just
like overwhelming. It was like, you know, they
look at us as nice and gentle. You know, the
females, they can do no wrong. And I, you know,
going to a prison when I where I started it,
you're like, OK. And then listening to some of
the, you know, crimes and stuff that they've
done and broke. And I was like, oh, you know,
they really need to think differently about,
you know, the females and stuff like that. But,
you know, it was just just seeing the crazy numbers
of females, you know, and dealing with them.
And it's like, OK, I just I got to stay focused.
But, you know, it was just it's I guess just
part of life, you know, the how they were raised,
you know, what type of men they deal with. So
it was just, you know, just dealing with that.
Just before we progress forward, because I think
this confuses a lot of people, can you give us
the differences between the jail, a state prison,
a federal prison, et cetera? It's kind of what
the tiers are. The look at the differences, when
you look at a jail or detention deputy, they're
dealing with people that have been charged, but
they're not being convicted. So the jail is just
free people waiting to get. Get a sentence in
this basically because either one either they're
going to get bailed out or they're going to have
to stay. And sometimes they end up with a citizen
sentence that they could do at the jail. But
for the most part, they're just they're just
waiting. When you get to the state prison, they've
been convicted. They've been convicted. They've
been given a sentence. a release date or maybe
not even a receiver release date. This is where
they're actually going to do that time. Federal
prison is the same thing, but most of the ones
in the feds are there for federal charges. They're
not there just for. robbing the corner store
this other way they're in there for robbing the
corner bank okay you know what i mean so there's
a difference on certain charges yeah yeah certain
charges or they get federal charges from drug
related stuff and so like so those are the differences
when i look back at the tv show cops back in
the day And they have those massive chases, you
know, vehicle pursuits, and then there's a foot
pursuit, and then they tackle them. There's a
big fight, and then they find a baggie of weed.
Now, fast forward to today, you know, a lot of
our professions are realizing that's actually
very helpful for a lot of things. Were there
groups of people in there back then that today
have charged? wouldn't be in there anymore because
of the way that we've kind of progressed viewing
prohibition? I'm pretty sure there's a lot that
probably wouldn't be. There are a few that because
of the amount that they had was still causing
to be in there. But you have to look at the differences
between personal use and distribution. If you're
not distributing it and you have a certain amount,
it's not just for personal use. So now you don't
want to pass away. How the guidelines are going.
But back then, you know, any little thing we
could get you put in jail or prison. But now,
you know, if you have a card or a certain amount,
they're just overlooking just a little bit. You
might have to come in for some other reason,
see court or whatever. But it's not the automatic.
You could go to go to prison. You know, that's
a big step. I mean, a huge difference from then
to now. You still have people get in trouble.
And reference to it, but not so much as back
to him. Have you seen the documentary 13th by
Ava DuVernay? I don't think so. It's basically,
it's a really interesting documentary. It's showing
how, you know, back in the day, because the kind
of foundation of drug prohibition came right
after the epic failure of alcohol prohibition.
Yeah. And so the reefer madness and all that
stuff and loitering. And the story is basically
telling that you had this one that went away.
And then when that was put in, what was slavery
is now within the four walls. And now manpower
is being used by people who are incarcerated.
And there's even the private prisons. And again,
where is that line between someone has done something
wrong and they need to be behind bars? well,
we need more people to fill the prisons because
we need people to, you know, be working in certain
areas. And I thought it was a very interesting
thing. And she's obviously storytelling the fact
that, again, a lot of minorities are being targeted.
But, you know, what are the checks and balances
between some of these industries in these prisons,
you know, and lowering recidivism, like trying
to, you know, actually address a number of people
we have behind bars? Well, the thing that they're
having now that has really been, pushed the heaviest
is reentry. Trying to keep people from coming
back because a lot of ones that are in prison
are ones that are coming back to prison, not
the fact that I'm going into prison. Some of
them, they get out and they go right back. They
go right back. Because they haven't picked up
no trade or they haven't learned anything while
they was in prison. So they went to working more
on reentry to teach them to not go out and do
what they did in the beginning so they won't
come back. So that's one of the biggest things
that they've been working on. Working on more
volunteers, being able to come in and talk to
them, help them through things, help them to
have an outlet when they get out, not just getting
out and now I'm going back and hanging out with
the same boys that got me in there in the first
place. So those are a lot of things that they're
picking up like real heavy right now. It's like
re -entry. Changing their lifestyles in prison
has been a big thing that they've changed with
the prison system right now. I think we have
the highest level of recidivism in the world,
if I'm not mistaken. And I had the superintendent
of Bastoy Prison in Norway who has the lowest
recidivism in the world. And it was interesting
because I think we call what we do the Philadelphia.
model if i've got that right um and for example
this one prison is on the island outside oslo
there are everything from petty crime through
to murderers on there and they live in basically
like this they live in the housing house i've
seen i've seen it yeah yeah and so they they
cook they clean for themselves they live together
they go to school they go to work and it's exactly
what you're saying the norwegian philosophy is
95 of prisoners are going to move back into your
street one day so why don't we take this time
that we have them and give them a skill set and
get them to break away maybe from the the group
that they're with before yeah so that when they
move back they're already i think there's even
like work programs and that kind of thing And
I don't understand if there's places around the
world that are doing things that are working,
why we don't look stronger at them. And I know
the Northwest, some of the prisons up there have
already started doing that. Even here, we have,
like I said, we have the re -entry program. And
then we have, like a lot of offices call it,
call it a cupcake camp. The ones that actually...
They're in prison, but they've been doing the
right things in prison. So there are certain
prisons where a lot of the rules that are the
harder prisons aren't implied at that prison.
So they have a little more freedom to what the
stuff they do. They're not allowed to actually
leave the institution unless they're on the work
squad or something like that. But they're allowed
to do. More stuff like we call free world stuff.
They're able to go in and out dormitories pretty
much when they want to. They have some areas
where they actually have game rooms where they
can actually play games and stuff. Video games,
not just card games, video games. Able to sit
and watch movies and stuff that are playing on
TV. So they're trying to soften it a little bit
more so they're not so hard when they actually
do get out. You know what I'm saying? So they're
able to actually see a lot of the stuff that
is going on. And you was talking about the...
They're free labor and stuff like that. They've
gotten away from that tremendously. They do have
what we call work squads that do go out and help
with road work and stuff like that. They help
maintenance of certain areas, which is good.
A lot of people look at it as slave labor, but
a lot of times it's good for them just to get
out. A lot of them really enjoy getting out.
It's hard having to sit in between those fences
all day, every day. To have the opportunity to
go out and be able to see the free world, even
though you know you're still convicted or in
prison, just to have that time outside of the
fence, a lot of people don't understand how much
that helps them. That helps their time go by
a lot faster. There's not so much working in
industry stuff like they do anymore. Most of
it is like road work and stuff that helps the
community. Like when you have storms and stuff,
you don't have enough work crews to take care
of a lot of that stuff. So you have a lot of
those guys that's in prison that want to come
out and help because a lot of them are from the
area. So why wouldn't they want to come out to
help clean up and try to help their families
that got to come through these areas? So a lot
of people don't look at it that way. It's not
the fact of just free labor. A lot of times it
just helps them, helps keep their mind a little
bit based on what they could get back to, not
just the fact that them having to do their time,
if that makes sense. That's what a lot of that
entails now. Like now, at the female institution
I'm at right now, we don't even send a work squad
out anymore, which a lot of those females, they
actually like going out, being able to be outside
of the fence, go clean up and stuff like that
and work their time that way. But their time
seems like they go a little bit longer when they're
sitting inside that fence, besides going outside
the fence. well i think that see that's that's
different obviously you've got these these companies
that almost had like assembly lines in prisons
and that's one separate thing but yeah i think
you know you've you've committed a crime against
your community you get to go and be a part of
the solution in your community i think i think
that's phenomenal yeah and that's very different
than the chain gangs in arizona where they're
humiliating them and that's not fixing anything
no no no but i think the dynamic dynamic of Those
areas, honestly, I don't know how they figure
their system goals. It's just ours, I think ours
is progressing a lot faster than a lot of other
areas because we have other states come to our
state just to kind of see how we're doing a lot
of stuff so they could implement it more in their
area because they're working out for a lot of
stuff that we've stopped doing years ago. So,
yeah, that's where we're at right now as far
as correction goes. Gino, I see the farm. Talk
to me about that. Who does that feed and who
works that? Well, it feeds mostly the male inmates.
Like the females don't go outside of the jail
perimeter. They stay more so around the area,
but the males normally do the farm and they work
the kitchen and stuff like that. And the who
normally feeds inside the jail. Because I was
talking to, there's a guy, Joel Salatin, who,
if you ever watch any of those food documentaries,
Forks Over Knives, he's like the farmer with
the big floppy hat and the glasses. But he was
saying that there's two groups that eat kind
of like out -of -date food, processed food. It's
our schools and our prisons. So when I think
about that and then I think about... that we
have a farm here and that's feeding our inmates,
which obviously, you know, we know sitting here
when we eat bad food, we feel like shit. When
we eat good food, you feel better. I think that's
an amazing model personally. Yeah, we used to
have it in our area, but we don't have the farm
as much anymore to where they actually farm produce
and stuff to come inside the institution. Most
of our stuff is outsourced and stuff, but that
hasn't changed. still a lot of food you like
i'm not gonna eat that but unfortunately it has
to be there talk to me gina about the training
so at the front the front door um well first
let me rephrase that talk to me about the ratio
of corrections officers to you know incarcerated
people and then you know what is the training
that you got at the beginning of your career
um the ratio of is Corrections versus inmates
is very overwhelming. You can see it's a very
big difference. You know, and the training is,
you know, the defensive training that we get,
and it's now they're trying to get more advanced
in it. But you have some people that has been
in corrections for so long, it's like, I know
I'm not going to be able to do this. But, you
know, you get, it's like you. You're going to
either have to do it, it's going to put you to
a point where you're going to either retire or
you're just going to have to do it. You know,
because as we try to advance our training, the
criminals, they get smarter too. Like, we're
against some very creative people, you know,
and it's just like you got to put your best foot
forward because, you know, they study us 24 hours
a day. They just have that time to study us and
like, hey, I know who's the fit person. They
know who they can get over on, who they can get,
you know. They know these things just by, you
know, observing us and our behavior when we come
in. It's like sometimes you feel like we're outnumbered
when we deal with the, you know, the criminals.
We are. Yes, we are. Well, talk to me about that
because, I mean, you know, we met and our nation
will get to. to kind of the genesis of that in
a little bit. But a lot of the people I've had
from law enforcement, the ones that do take care
of themselves, that do go to the gym, are the
ones that usually report the least hands -on
incidents because of that deterrent and the way
they hold themselves. What do you see as far
as that in your roles? Well... Being an instructor
for the Law Enforcement Academy and Corrections
Academy, the difference has changed drastically
from the time when I started. There's a certain
standard that they made you stay to just to be
able to get through the academy. And they slowly,
because of the amount of staff that it's hard
to get, they like. went away from a lot of that
stuff and making it easier and easier and easier
just so they could get through the academy. Because
the four -month academy, going through legal
to, let's just say, defensive tactics, firearms,
first aid, all of those different things you
have to go through in that four -month period.
And when I went through the academy, if you failed
the test, you got fired immediately. Now you
get a couple of shots to pass that test just
to make it through the academy. But with the
dynamics of the inmate population and one of
my dormitories, I have two offices and there's
180 inmates in that dormitory. So when you double
that between seven dormitories, you could tell
what the dynamics is. In between maybe one or
two people that I actually have that monitor
the yards throughout the evening because I work
the night shift a lot. Being outnumbered is crazy
when you actually think about it. And a lot of
people don't really understand what officers
go through daily just to walk a compound and
make sure they make it home daily. Because there's
always something that happens. I get reports
every day on my phone of instances that happen
on institutions where certain officers get attacked
or get hit or whatever the case may be. A lot
of people always, oh, well, y 'all taking advantage
of the inmates, or y 'all being nasty to the
inmates, or you're doing this to them. And I'm
like, you got to understand, we're outnumbered
by them. So if they don't have a certain level
of understanding of who, what, when, and where,
you're going to end up with that issue. And it's
not the fact that just being nasty or mean to
them, but just like being on the street, there
are certain laws that you have to follow. You
don't follow, you get in trouble. Same thing
happened inside the prison. The prison is just
a small city within itself that has its own rules
and guidelines that you have to follow. You don't
follow them, then there's consequences behind
those you not following that. And a lot of people
don't understand that or get understanding of
that. Has the ratio always been so dramatic?
Like so few corrections officers? Always. Because
they only allow us to hire a certain amount.
You can't, they're not going to pay that many
officers to be there. So you only have a set
amount of officers that you can actually hire
to work at the institution. That doesn't even
come close to how many inmates that are at the
institution. Because one of our compounds, I
think if I think of all the officers there, there
are maybe 200, maybe 200 to 860 inmates. That
ratio still don't add up. And then on the other
compound, I think it's like close to maybe 300
staff between all three shifts. Maybe 300 staff
and it's 1 ,100 inmates that walk that compound.
So the ratio is always going to be up because
they would never set it to the point where you
could hire that many people to be on the compound
at all times. And if you had that many people.
Many of us will look at each other like, okay,
we got too many people here. We're walking over
each other. That's how we look at it because
we're so used to dealing with it in that aspect.
And a lot of times it's hard for me to explain
to them how beneficial it is to have too many
people at that time because you never know what
could happen. You never know what could happen.
And a lot of people that I work with now has
never been in a situation where there has actually
been a riot to where it makes, totally take over
an institution or try to take over the institution
i've been through too and they don't understand
the dynamics of you never have enough officers
when they come to stuff like that it's so short
-sighted because this is the same with our firefighters
and i talk about it all the time but you know
the the three shifts and 56 hours are now mandatory
over time and now they're working 80 hours and
you know the people that we need the most we
seem to treat the worst Or the people that do
the most, you treat the worst. Yeah, exactly.
And the ones that do the least get handed everything
or let go with everything, which it hasn't changed,
which is crazy. Talk to me about, if you want
to just kind of not be too specific, about the
potential riots that you experienced. the dangers
that you guys face because i would imagine because
in england we had a lot of prison riots when
i was young and they were deadly like prison
officers were killed yeah it's um the the best
the biggest thing that you could see now with
some of the ones that are like coming up now
or coming close to coming up now they are not
so much geared towards the officers it's a lot
against one another Officers can get mixed up
in it or we do have some that officers actually
do get really hurt badly or even killed. But
there are any number of reasons of a prison riot
could jump off in between just food. Yeah, food.
Not having enough food at some point or certain
areas feeling like they're not getting the same
amount of food another area get. Because, you
know. Like, on one of my compounds, 850 inmates.
You start out with one dormitory, they get further
certain things, then they run out. By the last
dormitory they get there, they're going to kind
of get annoyed with that. Like, why we got to
get the leftovers of something y 'all done made
up that doesn't match to what originally is supposed
to have came out. Female inmates don't key on
that as much, but male inmates do. And that's
where your problem will come in. or um certain
things that they feel like they're allowed to
have between wreck time to um go into the the
canteen or the store that is their store that
they could go to just little small stuff like
that could turn into a major disturbance instantly
but the biggest thing that starts up is that
child on how you feed them and how you take care
of them and that could cause the biggest issue
see and again that seems like that's an opportunity
to staff that area better, and that way you mitigate
and listen to the officers. Yeah, but when you
have anywhere to 100 to 200 inmates in that area
on any given time, you only have five or six
officers in that area, dealing with that area.
That's a lot to have to deal with at that point.
And if something jumps off, it could get real
bad. We have things in place to actually deal
with it, but... By the time we get that in place,
people can get really hurt. But yeah, the farthest
things that could start riots is certain stuff
that they feel like they're allowed to have or
they should have. And then you have, just like
with anything, you have some people that just
don't do their job properly and be buttholes
about their job, and it could cause a big snowball
issue with everybody. Regina, when you guys have
talked, obviously, for a long time, What are
some of the differences working in the women's
prison versus the men's? Obviously, you have
experience now, Wayne, too. Yeah, I haven't experienced
the men's, but the women's. Well, right now,
I deal with all of them. I deal with men, women,
kids, children. So I deal with right now, I deal
with all of them. But it is a big difference
with the females are more needy. The men, like
I said, dealing with the men, even in a jail.
It seemed like it's starting to change a little
bit. The men are starting to be more needy and
the women are starting to be more dependent.
I'm like, okay, so when did this change? Like,
at what point did this change? It seemed like
it. It's like, what point did this change? Like,
come on, I need this to go back. The men are
starting to be more needy than the females. Like,
come on now. But, yeah, it's just like the neediness
of the females with the, you know, men and the
kids. They're just going to be kids. You know,
it's really. That hasn't changed. But between
the men and the females, it's like the neediness
of the two. The difference between the two is
like night and day. Night and day. Night and
day. Most of the time when I worked at a male
prison, men try to stay out your way. They try
to keep you out of their business as much as
possible. The best way to keep you out of their
business is them to do what they're supposed
to do. They're not as open with the stuff that
they do. They try to get stuff done. If you tell
them to do something, yes, sir, they'll get right
on it. Females, no. It's a debate. The argument
is why I got to do this. Because, one, you have
to. And it just goes, it just snowballs from
there. But it's a fight every day just to get
them to do just the minimal stuff, let alone
just their regular everyday stuff. The book I
wrote just over a year ago, i wanted to tell
not only the story of fire service and the way
that we see the community you know the way we
respond to it but also generational trauma that
there are these dominoes falling you know grandparents
parents child and you know when you look at a
lot of people that seem to end up you know in
addiction in prison etc you see you know it's
I mean, arguably it's poverty ultimately, isn't
it really? It just depends on, you know, what
that looks like in your particular city or county,
but it's this kind of revolving door, you know,
and you see these generational inmates that are
all related to each other. When you look now
in this kind of long career that you both have,
what are some of the common denominators that
you keep seeing over and over again? And how
do we stop these dominoes from falling and these,
you know, the next generation ending up behind
bars like their parents? Well, me personally,
because, you know, I'm a little bit older than
she is, just in which a lot of people are not
going to agree with it is just the dynamics of
how family deal with discipline in their household.
You could see the dynamics of a lot of the inmate
population not really growing up under any structure.
Like you're supposed to do this. You got to follow
this. If I say this, you need to do it. And there's
no negotiation with it. And a lot of people saw
it as being bad or terrible. I'm never going
to do that to my child. And the next thing you
know, your child is talking back to you. The
child is telling you what you're going to do.
I'm not talking so much like the beatings and
all that kind of stuff. Cause some people just
kind of took that a little too far, but, but
growing up knowing if they call my dad, it's
going to be a problem. So I better get myself
together. Now I'm not going to say I was, wasn't
always an angel, but there was times when my
dad stepped in and, you know, I had to rethink
life quickly and it, it made me go to the point
of. I'm never going to get in trouble enough
to where I have to deal with him or even with
my mom. And my mom was a sweetheart at the house,
but not wanting to disappoint them. And a lot
of the dynamics of parents throughout the years
now, they're too much of trying to be their kids'
best friend than be their parent. there's times
that you could you know y 'all you can sit there
and laugh and be cool with your child and stuff
like that but sometimes you got to have that
distinction of there's an authority and you have
to follow it because if you don't respect the
authority you're not going to respect nobody
on the street and then you're going to keep having
these problems you see the videos every day they
start going off on the police officer just for
pulling them over and they're in the wrong where
do they get that mindset from Well, they all
want to be internet stars. Yeah. It's clear as
day. You can see it. It's not even about, you
know, there's one that was so good. It was an
English kid. I mean, foul, foul mouth. He must
have been, God, 11, 12, on a bike, just cursing
out these people at his grocery store. And his
dad dragged him back. Oh, yeah. I saw that one.
That was a good one. That was a good one. That
was a good one. Yeah. You know, you have this
virtual world where people think there's nothing
going to happen. But you lock them back into
the real world and be a good parent. Yeah. Yeah.
You can be like, all right, you screwed up. Learn
from it. Get it together. But now you have so
many that, okay, if that kid did this, instead
of holding that kid accountable. They go down
there. Why you said anything to my child? Who
are you to say something to my child? So now
the child think, oh, I can do what I want to
because mom going to back me up on what I just
did. And dad's not going to hold me accountable
for what I just did. So snowball. Because like
now at the prison I have, we have eight inmates
that's under the age of 17. And we have 20. five
that are under the age of 21 that's in they're
in one particular dormitory but you have people
that are that young come to prison and then that's
not even counting the ones that are in juvenile
djj and stuff like that so and a lot of them
they just don't have respect for authority at
all because they wasn't raised to respect the
authority And I think that's a lot of dynamics
that we're having now and a lot of the issues
we're having with people that are coming to prison.
Because at one point, she was talking about the
female prison. At one point, they had started
closing female prisons because they didn't think
that females should be locked up to the extent
that they were. Yeah. At one point, we had closed
like two or three female prisons. When the court
cases started coming through, they got to the
point where they was like, oh, we made a mistake.
They do as many as heinous crimes as men do.
If not worse. They were having to hustle just
to build prison, just to have somewhere to put
them. That's why we have the second female prison
out there in Lowell. We got two female prisons
compared to one male prison. How did that add
up? Yeah, so it's just the whole dynamic of things.
Regina, what do you want to add anything as far
as like underlying reasons why you keep finding
these generations behind bars? I also think it's
the parenting like you get. A big ratio of especially
African -American that have no father figure
in the home. So I feel like that's a that's a
big that plays a very big role in what we see
today. So and then not only that, you have moms,
the mothers are not even being mothers. to their
kids anymore. And it's like, well, I guess the
kid is raising herself. Like now you want to
be their friend or their sister. Now that you
have a child that's raising their selves because
they can't depend on mom or they have no father
and never, never knew their father. So to me,
I feel like the biggest, you know, biggest in
that it's just a parenting system. It's like,
it has to, something has to change. And poverty
is a big issue also. But to me, it's just the
parenting, not having that father figure. Most
of the time now, it's the mother figure. You
know, years and years ago, it was the women always
complained, well, I can't depend on the man.
And it's like now, since I can't depend on the
man, I got a child. The child can't even depend
on the mom now because they still trying to find
their way. So it was like most of the time you
got babies having babies. Well, this is when
you hear some people, you know, usually people
that have got a comfortable income that are sitting
in a nice home. The problem is, you know, it's
the homes, you know, they're broken homes. But
if you look at the generational trauma of broken
homes, they create more broken home. Not always,
but, you know, if dad is in prison or mom is
an addict or, you know, we're just up sticks
and left. I mean, you know, my ex, my son's mother.
her sperm donor um basically left it when she
was five years old and went to start another
family across the country like imagine what that
does to a child you know what i mean so i think
this is the thing it's all well and good for
people to say oh it's just the the families it's
like but you know we got to figure out what's
breaking these families in the first place prison
addiction you know i mean all you know murder
i mean all these things that are destroying even
on the roads i mean 40 000 americans die in accidents
every year That's taking a mom or a dad, you
know? So I think we need to, you know, we need
to look at that because otherwise we will just
keep, you know. I think one of the biggest things
in the black community was government assistance.
You have, when that started up, when, okay, we
assist you with this because you have a child
just that and the other, but stipulation is the
dad couldn't be there. So when you start separating
that household, And then you start giving women
certain money, and they don't really have to
go to work for it. They got accustomed to it.
They got accustomed to it. Now they start passing
it down to their kids, especially their female,
their daughters. Hey, you don't need him. Get
that baby. Get that check. Kick him on down the
road. Say whatever you need to about him because
this, that, and the other, but. Whether you was
in a relationship with him or whatever the case
may be, go ahead and get that check. So it just
kept domino affecting, domino affecting the community
to the point of you have so many females on government
assistance that aren't in relationship or a meaningful
relationship like that. But before that whole
system came about, the marriage ratio was higher,
much higher. Then when they start looking for
assistance, just help to keep going, to get a
little hand up. Okay, well, you know, we'll help
you, but he can't be in the picture. No matter
what the instance is, he can't be in the picture.
Or, you know, they get those subsidized houses
and stuff like that. And when they come and do
inspection, man, if he's involved, he got to
go hide somewhere just so she can keep getting
her money. You know what I mean? So I think.
Just looking at it, a lot of that stuff is really
what caused a lot of issues. Like, okay, what
I need a man for, the government going to give
me the money. You know what I mean? I might get
a little money for child support or whatever
the case may be, but I take that money and don't
have to go to work nowhere. So I think that caused
a lot of issues in the black family too because
there's nobody looking for a nuclear family.
They're just looking for a paycheck as quick
as possible. And we saw that a lot in the fire
service. I mean, literally escalates on the front
driveway and no food in the fridge. You got a
BMW sitting out into the house that's falling
apart. Yeah. You know what I mean? I never understood
that. That always blew my mind. and the thing
is that i mean the benefits this is sadly what
isn't discussed i mean they do get a lot of people
back on their feet oh yeah you know my you know
becky she was on food stamps when she was young
and now she's a doctor yeah you know what i mean
so you know that it does help but but you got
to be the type you got to be the type of person
of using it as a way of help not using it as
a way of life absolutely you know what i mean
because you know you have like a lot of men that
They don't have anything but just a little bit
of help, probably going to help them get in that
direction. But they're not allowed to get that
kind of stuff. But you have a lot of women that
are like, okay, why am I going to do anything
better if I got it easy? Now, you do have those
that get on it for a minute, like you said. They
get off of it because they want something better.
They want something more than what that crazy
life is. Because I think Regina even did it for
equipment and she was like, oh. Subsidized housing,
food stamps, I did it. And I was like, I can't
do this no more. I cannot let the government
rule any part of my life. And I was like, I got
to have better. I got to have more. And I was
like, no, I can't. I cannot continue to live
my life like this. But I think it's also like
who you've got in your life. Like one of my friends
who's a retired gang unit guy, he's like one
of the gang members. He was the kind of person
that would be. friendly in the neighborhood you
know they trusted him um and he said yeah i've
got you know several women pregnant so you know
if one gets tired of me then i just go the other
one's house yes he's playing the game from the
other side but you know i think when you hear
the success stories and i had so many in police
fire you know military that were it's very similar
um childhood to the people that are behind bars
it was always a positive mentor but the problem
is you know you grow up in an area that's infested
with gangs or like where is that person your
mentor is someone that's telling you to sling
the open you know by a nine so what do you see
as far as uh because when i worked in california
the gangs were prevalent i know we had gang killings
all the time but here you don't see it as much
locally what about behind bars i mean we You
know, most of us are naive and we've only got
movies and television to go by. But do you see
that in the Florida prisons as much? Florida
prisons have it. It's not as prevalent as you
have in California and Texas and New York and
stuff like that. But they do have it. But a lot
of the gangs come from your area. where you're
from. It's not so much crip blood, just that
and the other. Where you from in Fort Lauderdale?
Where you from in Miami? I'm from Duval. You
know, those different type of cliques that you
have inside, that's in the male compound. Females...
It's more survival with the males. It's more
survival. Yeah. Females, they don't have... They
don't even associate with all that stuff. It's
just their family groups. Whoever they connect
with the most, that's who they hang out with.
But other than that, they could probably have
been hung with bloods at one point inside the
prison. They don't even think about it, consider
it. It's just who they could click with the best,
whoever they get along with the best. Males,
they're more area. whatever you're from and stuff
like that. Now, they might have it more in the
feds. I can't say for the feds because I never
worked in the feds, but with the male population,
that's more what their biggest issue is. And
then you find it more with the black inmates
than with whites or Hispanics and stuff like
that. You have some separation in the Hispanic
area, but for the most part, For the white inmate,
if you're white, you're with us. It's CWB. Yeah.
CWB. So, and then the blacks, they have like
the dynamic of where I'm from, this, that, and
the other, and they're more separated as far
as gang -wise goes. But you have that a little
bit more, yes. On the racism, excuse me, that's
a hard word, the recidivism conversation, I hear,
you know, from people within, you know, the law
enforcement and the prison side, the availability
still of of drugs you know the the violence in
there what is creating that behind bars that
maybe isn't happening in some of the the more
progressive systems or the ones that maybe have
the right manpower well in my aspect is the drug
the drug situation has gotten a lot worse um
throughout the state it's not just in one prison
every state every prison has an issue with drugs
and the battle to keep it off the compound is
ridiculous um like i say it's a lot worse than
what it used to be um and it's it's causing it's
causing a ripple ripple effect of bad stuff happening
on the compound because you constantly they constantly
dealing drugs either they getting high Or they're
almost dying from drugs because we have to knock
in them weekly now to the point. And just trying
to figure out how it's getting on the compound.
That's the biggest issue that I've been dealing
with as far as dealing in the profession, just
trying to figure out where is it coming from?
Because they even get to the point where they
get wall spray sprayed on a piece of paper and
smoke it and get out from it. That's why we can't
even have wall spray on the compound anymore
because they was using that as a form of getting
high off of. So the increasing of the drugs on
the compound is what really causing us the biggest
issues now because you never know what you're
going to get because they get that strength that
come from being high and then you have to deal
with that on top of being inside the prison.
What about your perspective, Regina? Well, pretty
much the same thing, you know, wondering how
they get it. But most of ours, how they get is
from because we do send out workers. They go
to the farm and majority of the time they get
to drop from the farms and stuff like that. So
and it comes inside. But, you know, it's. It's
not as bad as the prison. I'm sure it is in some
aspect. Like we do catch the ones when they come
in inside the jail, they'll drop or they can
swallow it. And they, you know, they get it out
of their system inside the jail. And so it's
like, you know, that part of we are dealing with,
you know, dealing with the ones that are swallowing
it, bringing it inside. And, you know, the inmates
from the farm, they'll bring it from the farm
and bring it in the jail. Even though they get
searched, body scanned and everything, somehow
they're still getting it in. And the worst part
about it is their families that are helping them.
Oh, yeah. And that's the thing that boggles my
mind. I'm like, you complain. I'm pretty sure
you complain about them being in there. And whatever
happens to them, you complain about it. But you
want to help them do stuff that you know that's
illegal to the point of helping them try to sneak
in. Cell phones, drugs, the amount of cell phones.
They have brand new cell phones before most people
on the street could get a brand new cell phone,
which is crazy. And with them using drones and
everything to drop packages on the compound,
drones have made it really bad for us now because
you have to deal with drone flyovers all the
time now. They're trying to drop packages on
the compound with piles of contraband in them,
from cell phones to... drugs to alcohol whatever
they could get in there i had a um former british
special forces guy on the show and now that's
his world is drones and he was talking about
the ability to jam so they don't have that over
the prisons a lot of prisons are starting to
get it because it's because it's coming so prevalent
but we don't have them over all of them and they're
slowly getting out there but it's it it's ridiculous
the stuff that they have to go through and then
the amount of stuff that we have to deal with
when it's been When it's been seen or found that
we have to deal with the amount of searches and
stuff that we have to do. I want to do one more
prisoner focus and then we'll go to the guards
well -being. I've heard from a few people addiction
programs being cut. I think in Florida specifically,
if I'm not mistaken. Talk to me about that because
one answer obviously to not using drugs is to...
be sober in the first place so it seems again
if we're talking about recidivism reducing access
to mental health tools or addiction tools well
they do still have addiction programs that are
in there um they do have a particular program
that they have that focuses on that the way they
help try to help them out but the sad thing is
there are the worst ones in the prison the ones
that are actually in the program we have to deal
with them more than anybody else on the compound
when it comes to drugs The thing is with them,
if they're into drugs, there is nothing you can
change their mind about. You try. You talk to
them. I talk to plenty of them. I'm not understanding
why you keep putting this stuff in your body.
Sooner or later, we're not going to be able to
bring you back. I have them point blank to my
face. I like it, so I'm going to do it. If I
get my hands on it, I'm going to do it. And it
is crazy. You could try, unless they really want
to make a change themselves, there's no amount
of class you're going to give them that's going
to get them out of it. Which is crazy. Yes. And
which is hard to believe, but you could try to
help them. But if they don't want to help themselves,
there's nothing you can do about it. It seems
like if there was a lot more purpose during the
day, so like the Norwegian model, and they had
school and they had work and they were... cooking
and cleaning and hanging out with the lads or
the girls yeah the that loneliness that emptiness
would be less maybe you you would have people
less drawn to that it's just the biggest thing
is just giving getting them to want to be a part
of something because yes you still have education
we still have some things we do have give them
like rec so they can go out and hang out with
one another and get a little bit of exercise
in But then you have those that just don't want
to do it. They feel like if you make them do
something is against their will. And why should
I do it? Not realizing it's a benefit to you
to give you something to give you a program in
your head. So you have something to fall back
on when you get out of here. So you think about,
OK, I got to get up in the morning, make my bed
and start my day. Not just lay in the bed all
day long. You got to get up and get started on
something throughout the day. And they feel like
it's just. We're just harping on them, but we're
trying to give them a structure in their mind
of something to do. Wake up, make your bed, start
your day. Don't stay in bed all day. You have
to make your bed every single day. So if you
get that instilled in your head when you get
home, you won't be that person that just lay
up in bed all day and don't go do nothing. You
know you got to get up, make your bed, and start
your day. Go find something to do. Find a job
or something to do, not just... lay around the
house all day. Absolutely. Well, Regina, one
of the kind of observations that I had a long
time ago now, not from experience, of course,
was we think about the incarcerated people being
in prison, but you guys are in prison. So talk
to me about the impact of that, because I would
imagine, excuse again if I'm naive, there's a
big old storm out the back. You know, but if
they are not seeing daylight very much, then
I'm sure a lot of the CEOs aren't seeing daylight
very much. And you've got these long shifts.
And like you said, the ratio, I'm sure, adds
stress. So, you know, talk to me about the environment
that you guys work in and the impact on your
physical and mental health. It can affect us
very, very much. Like a lot of people that I
work with, I try to tell them, find something
to do. get out. My, what we normally do is work
out. I love working out. It keeps the mind right.
And it has kept me for, it kept us for a very
long time from having to take mental psych meds.
You know, it's a, it's very, it's very high in
corrections where you have people that have taken
psych medication in our field. And a lot of people
ask me, well, what do you do to, you know, when
you want to have fun, I work out. I love working
out. It keeps me mentally, it keeps me focused.
Me and my husband, it's like, that's something
we love doing. We don't have to drink alcohol.
We don't smoke. We don't drink alcohol. So our,
the way we have fun, you know, what we love doing
is just, we focus on working out, getting stronger.
So we can come home every day, you know, working
in the field that we work in, corrections. We
deal with criminals on a daily basis. You know,
a lot of people, you know, it's not, an easy
job. It's a mental strain on us and physical.
So we focus on just working out. The same thing
because in corrections, the statistic is five
years after you retire, you're gone. Same as
first responders. And so, you know, and I can
see it because a lot of time you have so much
idle time that you're just sitting. You do paperwork
and you're just sitting in a chair most of the
time. And then you have those that, you know,
a lot of people when you get bored, they eat.
They snack on this. I have the problem not being
a supervisor because I sit at a desk a lot. I
have to push my bag away because a lot of times
I'm doing, I'm just like, okay, what do I got
in my bag? Okay, I'm much on that for a few minutes.
Next thing you know, you don't put on another
50 pounds because you're just sitting there eating
all day and sitting behind a desk the entire
time. So going, To the gym, a lot of times, help
me get a lot of those stressors out and make
sure I keep my body at least moving and up so
that hopefully when I leave, I'm not going five
years after that. And I tell a lot of my staff
that daily. They have to deal with me daily.
And I have a lot of them that come and talk to
me. And I was like, and a lot of them, I don't
have time. I say, you make time for what you
want to make time for. Because if you could sit
down and watch a one hour movie on TV, those
are two minutes in between each one of those
commercials that you would get up and do something.
I like, so that's an excuse that you make to
tell yourself that doesn't work on me. Just like,
just let you, I just let them know that it's
because you need to do something. Even when I'm
teaching the academies, I tell them, I'm like,
you have a lot of idle time. You got to find
something outside of work to help you keep going.
Not just that paycheck. You got to have something
outside of work to keep you going because most
people have kids and stuff like that. Can't keep
up with kids when you can't freaking breathe.
You know what I mean? So, yeah, that's been like
the biggest thing for me because I had issues
in the beginning of my career where I put on
like 60 pounds. I went from like 185 to almost
240, 250 pounds at one point. And I went to bend
over to tie my shoes and couldn't breathe. I
almost choked myself out. So I figured I need
to get back in, get back to doing something.
And getting back to working out. And that's when,
you know, she and I started working out a little
bit more together because at one point I was
leaving her home when I went to the gym. But
I couldn't work out because she had called me
the whole time while I'm out. So I couldn't get
no sentences to the point where I might as well
just bring her with me and get it done that way.
How did you guys meet? At the prison. It was
so sad. Uh, yeah, we met each other at the prison.
Um, I seen her walking down the center walk and
she was with another way. Then, you know, we
spoke and stuff like that. And, and I always
kind of joked around a lot of times at that time
too. And we just started talking back and forth
from there. Yeah. Very cool. Talk to me about
iron Legion then. Cause that's where, you know,
we all met, but you were like more OG than I
was. So, cause that was. when CrossFit was relatively
unknown too. So what were you doing prior to
that and kind of walk me through your journey
with the gym? Well, we started out as Hammer's
House of Fitness, it was. James Hammer Tree.
Yeah, Hammer Tree. He had a gym. And we saw at
one time, drove past it, went in, and we kind
of looked around and they tried to get us to
get started. And we didn't do it. And exactly
a year later. Went back by the, I said, we say
we're going to try it out. So let's go try it
out. So when we went there, they didn't call
themselves CrossFit because they wasn't affiliated.
So he called it HammerFit. And we started working
out there. The first couple of weeks, we were
like, what are we doing? What is wrong with us?
And some workouts, you know, doing the rest,
we'd be sitting there, and I'd be looking at
her, and I'd be like, if she get up and leave,
I'm going with her because this is killing me
right now. But we didn't realize how much stronger
that made us, and we kept coming back. It just
nonstop. It just got addicting. And then Hammers,
he was. Closing down because he was moving somewhere
else, and he got with Ted to kind of take over.
And at one point, Ted was going to keep the gym,
and then I think he kind of figured out that
was going to be just too much to deal with. So
he ended up closing down and just brought all
of us with him. And that was when they was at
the old warehouse area that they was at. So we
started going there, and we've been there ever
since. our biggest thing is we was trying to
get in shape before we got married we were trying
to get ourselves we had already did stuff we
had did the p90x's the insanities and all that
kind of stuff we did those over and over again
and my wife is one of those type of people she
she gets bored very easily so after a while of
learning the tapes and knew what was going to
happen on the tape she had kind of got away from
not really want to do it anymore so when we started
doing crossfit it helped us out because it was
something different every day. So she couldn't
get comfortable, we couldn't get comfortable,
and it was something that gave us a goal every
single day. And it went from our goal of trying
to lose weight to being able to back squat a
certain amount, to being able to deadlift a certain
amount, being able to clean a certain amount.
It got away from that aesthetic stuff to the
ability stuff. And I think that's the biggest
thing that kept us in it at that time. Yes. Please.
Being able to protect myself and my partner when
we're at work. That was my main goal. I was like,
we work out. That's the reason why I love working
out is like being able to have that strength
to be able to help a male partner or a female
partner, you know, in a situation with dealing
with inmates. You know, we deal with all kinds.
And there's plenty of times where I've been in
a use of force and I've helped more male inmates
with. you know, male partners with male inmates
than I have with female. And a lot of people
are like, you know, Regina, you're very strong.
Yes, that's the reason why I go to work out.
You know, just to be able to, hey, you going
home, we both going home. You know, just to have
the strength that sometimes my male partners
may not have. To be a female and to be able to
save a male partner, you know, in a use of force
is... I look at it as an A+. Good job. Just to
be able to save a partner. I think CrossFit,
if we're going to thank them for one thing, it's
redefining. What an Air Force woman can do. Because
as you know, there are several women in our gym
that can whoop our asses. Regina can out squat
me and all that stuff. But it's true, like every
different area that they're, you know. And that
was the thing that got me. It was like when we
first started working out there and I'm trying
to move this weight and I can't move it. And
I know I'm stronger than this. And I got Renee
and Lindy over there on the other side. Well,
Lindy at the time. Linda, she's lifting more
weights than me. She's what, like 110 pounds?
She's overhead squatting more than I was and
they were pissing me off. I'm like, what is going
on? And so it made me define what I needed to
do and to work on myself. Absolutely. Well, shifting
to where we are today, the fire service has an
immense recruitment problem at the moment. fixable
like we know what is wrong it's just the problem
is just convincing the people who you know the
bean counters that rather than spending all the
money downstream if you put the money up front
oh yeah you won't waste all that money in the
first place yes what are you seeing as far as
um recruitment and retention in corrections in
general i want to talk about jerry first you
go well in my area that's been like a major push
in the last At least two to three years. With
the new secretary that we have that's over the
department creation, he has really been pushing
up, getting more raises for the department because
for almost 12 years, we never received a raise.
For 12 years? Yes, for 12 years, we never received
a raise. So you can't keep staff that way. People
are not going to stay, especially when you have
the county that has a raise just about every
other year or whatever. You're not going to keep
staff that way. So he is really pushed to try
to get us more raises. In the last three years,
we've received more raises than the last three
years, and like I said, in the last 12 years.
And then the latest one that he's pushed for
has put us where we should be. It could be better,
but it's where we should have been years ago.
If you're going to compete against Marion County,
Alachua County. they counted all these different
counties that's paying substantially more me
as a captain um she's making the same amount
as a sergeant so that's like how you gonna make
make the distinction between the two if you could
go to the county and make the same amount of
same amount of money at a lower a little bit
royal or right just because of your years you
can make that kind of money so with the raids
that they're implementing this year, should fix
a lot of that. And that's been his biggest thing,
to hold retention. And it has helped a lot. The
amount of officers that we've been getting in
lately has been crazy. We still lose a lot because
corrections is not for everybody. Not everybody
can do that job. But we've kept a lot more staff.
We've gotten our percentage down to like, I think
like 3 % at one point. I was just 3%. Yeah, 3%.
Vacancy rate. So, which is amazing. We came from
like 20%. Now we do still have some institutions
that are still dealing with high unemployment,
but. We're thinking with this next raise and
actually having a governor on board with giving
us the money that we need to have so we can keep
people has been a plus. Ron DeSantis, it looks
like so much it don't make no sense. So that's
been the biggest thing. That's been his biggest
push as far as getting employees and keeping
employees. And that's one of his main goals for
a supervisor. It's not just the money that keeps
the people. It's the people that keeps the people.
And if you're going to keep people, you have
to make them feel like they're a part of something.
And you have to back them up on that and not
just treat them like, oh, you here. Sit over
there for a little while. We'll get with you
in a minute. Treat them like people and talk
to them like people so people can stay. And that's
been one of his. If he hears anything about a
staff member treating a new staff member the
wrong way, he'll fire him. On the spot. Because
he don't feel like he needs somebody. And we
don't need people like that. And we try to teach
everybody. Treat them like family. I tell myself
all the time. It's not me that keeps these people
here. Because they don't work directly with me.
They work directly with you all. So if y 'all
not treating them the right way for them to stay.
Y 'all start worrying about your overtime. Because
you're going to get overtime eventually. But.
Everybody wants to go home at some point. And
we work five days a week. We don't have 12 -hour
shifts and stuff. We work five days a week. So
having to work extra hours throughout a five
-day period can be really hard. So if you have
the right staffing, you can go home every day
and still have the pay that you think you should
have. So that's the biggest thing that we've
been working on in our area. This is the thing
as well. When you're understaffed, yeah, the
overtime might seem attractive. but you got to
take a step back and say, well, what am I losing?
You know, and not, you know, a physically not
being there. And then when you are home, you're
so tired. Yeah. And then we're back to this conversation
of not being a present parent and, you know,
wondering why your kid's struggling. So, and
one of the why stuff is slipping through at your
job because you're so tired that, you know, you
don't work all these hours for this overtime,
but still you're not present job wise. You got
the cloud here because you're so tired. So exactly.
It's not, It doesn't work out very well. The
money is good, but it doesn't help out in the
long run. No. And this is what we're seeing in
the fire service. There's a lot of overtime because
they're so underserved. I just was told the other
day that in five years, Marion County Fire has
lost 500 people. Wow. I think that's pretty much
the size of the whole department. That's how
many people are just cycling through. So you
think the dollar amount, you think of all the
holes that people are having to fill. But yeah,
but the ultimate currency is time with your family.
You know what I mean? And that's what's going
to keep people with you. If they go and they
feel well rested and they're all in, you know,
when they're at work and then they get to go
home and they're supposed to go home. And like
you said, they get paid properly. And it's a
good working environment. That's it. But this
whole, oh, we'll just pay them more money on
its own. That's not. You know, or the same as
lowering fitness standards. Well, lower standards,
that'll work. Yeah, you'll get 18 in a heartbeat,
but watch the lawsuits come through when the
wrong person gets hired. Oh, yes. We're seeing
that now. We're seeing that now. But I had one
of my staff members the other day that he does
a lot of overtime, and then when he see the pay
raise that's getting ready to come up, he was
like, okay, I could go ahead and promote now
because I'm getting paid the amount of money
that I was doing all my overtime for. Now I'm
getting paid the amount that I'm getting my overtime
for. Why do I need to keep doing that overtime?
I'm getting paid for it. Yeah. So it's helping
out a lot because we just had interviews for
a lieutenant last week. And normally for our
interviews, you have maybe like three or four
people showed up. This time it was 13. Oh, wow.
That showed up to go to lieutenant just because
the amount of money that the lieutenant is going
to make when that pay raise come into effect.
A lot of people wasn't promoting up because they're
like, OK, I can make the money of a lieutenant
staying as a sergeant just working overtime.
Yeah. And now they don't have to work overtime.
That was close. Well, I want to be mindful of
your time. I want to get you to the gym. So one
more question for you, for you both, and we'll
round it off. If you start with you, Regina,
if you were queen for a day, whether it was the
employment side and the correctional side, whether
it was things, incentives to help, you know,
the incarcerated people, you were queen for a
day. What changes would you make to make the
overall system better? That's kind of it's it's
kind of hard to answer because it's it's a lot
more than, you know, a day of change is something
that. That will take years to change. First,
I would start with just family because family
makes a difference in all things. Just having
that relationship with someone who cares for
you, you care for, it changes a lot. A lot of
people don't have that. Absolutely. And that
is a change. I mean, that's a change. If we can
get the narrative to switch from nasty to...
community again i think that would be game -changing
on so many levels so what about you wayne king
for a day oh my thing would be the the first
thing would put us back on 12 -hour shifts what
are you so you're on eight so we're on eight
we're eight and a half okay um i will put us
back on 12 -hour shifts because that'll be less
amount of days going to work and uh less amount
of hours having to work actually yeah And so
when we were on 12s, I felt like I had more time.
I felt like I had more time to spend with family.
I felt like I had more time to do stuff around
the house. Now on the five -day, eight -and -a
-half -hour days, it's like I don't even feel
like doing anything because I know I got to get
right back up in the next couple hours and go
back again. And I don't have that break in between.
So that would be my first thing. Because I hope
my secretary don't hear this right now because
he said he didn't want to hear about it no more.
But the conversation that 90 % of the staff have
right now is they wish we'd be back on 12 -hour
shifts. And you're on nights? I'm on nights.
Yeah. So I go in at 11 and don't leave until
like 9 o 'clock in the morning. We felt like
we had more of a family atmosphere work wise
because you knew who all was going to be there
every day. And it wasn't no constant alternate
because everybody have different days off on
12 hour shifts. Everybody worked the same shift.
So everybody, if we wanted to do something together,
we could all do it at the same time because we
had the same days off. And that opportunity is
like hard to do now because everybody have different
days off and trying to set up doing stuff for
one another. But like I said, I've just felt
like I had more time home, just not at work all
the time. And I had more time to get my work
done and not have to try to rush to get it done.
And which I could stay late, but I don't want
to stay late. No. No, I don't want to stay late
and I have to. So yeah, I rather, that would
be my first thing. That might be my first and
only thing. Well, here's, I mean, there's science
behind it though. If you, and this is what's
interesting. If you look at the progressive corporate
world, so Google and, you know, these big companies
in Iceland, in the UK and some other places,
they've tested the four day work week. So four,
eight hour days. People were just as productive.
they were innovative because you know obviously
it's different like being physically in jail
but if they're a project manager whatever it
is okay well how can i get this done you know
quicker quicker um they're uh they're being more
efficient as well and so it was a huge success
and now you've got a workforce that goes home
for a three -day weekend with their family they
come back they're rested they're ready to go
yeah so it's a 32 -hour work week to me the people
who are in these extremely um important positions
that are really you know protecting lives and
they're working at night especially i don't understand
why you know we can't give more rest and recovery
so you do a 12 or a fire 24 and then you know
in the fire service and this is happening in
florida now 24 hour excuse me 72 hour period
And then again, and people always say, well,
what about 12? It's like, well, obviously you
can't do corrections 24 straight, but the answer
is more rest and recovery in between. Well, if
you did a 12 -hour shift, then you would, again,
compact that time and then be able to give people
more time off. And as you said, that brain fog's
gone. The likelihood of making a mistake and
getting hurt or getting someone else hurt goes
down as well. So it's so crazy that police, fire,
EMS, corrections. work these long long hours
especially in the ones that are understaffed
but yet if we're really talking about looking
at the best models you know in the business world
they're realizing that a shorter work week is
very you know efficient and healthy yeah so to
me 12s with more rest and recovery between would
would absolutely be better than much better it
felt a lot better because like now i get two
days off for it technically i only get one day
out between between my two ships. So it's hard
to even enjoy my time because I'm either having
to give up sleep just to spend time or sleep
the whole time and don't spend time at all. Especially
like spending time with her. Like when I get
off Saturday morning, if she's off, I either
have to stay up the rest of the day just so I
can spend time with her or sleep half the day
and then spend time with her. And then the next
day be able to spend some time with her and then
she's getting ready for her next day. yeah at
work so it's like that would be my i would think
that would that would benefit our department
greatly when it would save the money i mean this
is this is what's crazy i was literally talking
to someone today about uh this is my dad about
science and data i said no one has ever studied
at least in the fire service our longevity how
long do we live but police fire ems corrections
we all have the same exact it's five years so
studies or not we're all seeing it and so you
know there's the medical retirements there's
workman's comp all those would go down if you
had a healthier happier workforce so the science
is there if they want to actually save money
with sick time usage and injuries and all the
things the work week that we're talking about
would actually save the money hand over fist
hand over fist easily so yeah easily yeah Let's
hope the right people listen to this. Yep. All
right. Well, I want to thank you so much. It's
been such an amazing conversation. If people
did want to reach out, follow on social media,
I know it's a bit weird because you're in corrections.
Are there any areas that you want to talk about?
Me on Instagram would be Blacksmith72, I think.
Go on yours. no yeah that's it yeah regina anywhere
or no no all right well i want to thank you both
so much it's been an amazing conversation really
powerful insight like we've known each other
for over a decade this is probably the most we've
talked actually i want to thank you so much for
being so generous with your time and coming on
the behind the shield podcast today thank you