Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
veteran firefighter and the union president for
Gainesville Fire Rescue, David Shuford. Now,
in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics
from his journey into the volunteer fire service,
the competitive nature of recruitment when he
was first trying to get hired on the career side,
his journey into Gainesville. witnessing the
recruitment and retention crisis firsthand, their
mission to pursue the 24 -72 -42 -hour work week,
the incredible successes they've witnessed over
the last year, the increase in retention, recruitment,
the wellness of their people, the relationships
of the firefighter families, and of course, the
money saved. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. go to whichever app you listen
to this on subscribe to the show leave feedback
and leave a rating Every single five -star rating
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men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. Schuford. Enjoy. Well, David, I
want to start by saying two things. Firstly,
thank you to our mutual friend, Matt Harrison,
who was also on the podcast when you guys were
first starting this journey. And secondly, I
want to thank you for taking the time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah,
I appreciate it. So where on planet Earth are
we finding you this morning? So I'm actually
at our union hall, the Gainesville Professional
Firemen here in Gainesville. That's where you
got me. You don't have your studio set up yet
for us to be able to come down. Yeah, no, it's
funny because sadly with the recording, if we
did it face to face and I have that also, it's
not a studio, but I have my mics and everything.
But to do the cameras as well, you know, you're
talking about another entire setup and editing.
And so even though we're only, what, 40 miles
from each other at the moment, at least when
we're doing it this way, we can use the video
for people to watch and kind of share this message.
First question, I want to go back to the beginning
of your journey, but how long have you been the
president now at Gainesville? So I took over
the presidency beginning January of 2025. I've
been on the e -board since right at 2020, right
before COVID. COVID hit is when I first started
out. I started out as a shift rep, and then I
served a term as vice president. underneath are
my predecessor Nick Gonzalez and I took over
him after his promotion so brilliant well let's
just do a quick brief kind of journey into the
fire service so tell me where you were born and
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic
what your parents did how many siblings okay
so I was born out of Jacksonville I was raised
in a small town just north of me so it's Lottie
Florida one one red light super small My father
was a head mechanic for DuPont, which is a big
chemical company now. It's, you know, Chem Wars
has kind of bought it out. My mother, she's currently
serving as a secretary for a sheriff's office
here in town over in Union County. I have four
siblings, older sister, older brother, and a
younger brother. So I'm the only one in the fire
service. Have you had any conversations with
your dad as far as the company he works for is
responsible for PFAS? No, because that's not,
I wouldn't say that that is his expertise. Not
that he's responsible himself, but yeah, he's,
he's, he's one of them guys that if I brought
up PFAS, he wouldn't have no idea what we're
talking about. He's born and raised on a farm.
He's just one of them mechanics. You throw anything
in front of him, whether he's worked on it before
or not, he's just going to be able to throw it
together. He's not going to be able to tell you
anything. Yeah, that's good, though. That's good.
You know what? They paid well for the time before
PFAS came out. We were able to go without. Yeah,
no, absolutely. But it's interesting now when
we're having this cancer conversation that, you
know, we were all just as naive as your dad was.
And I mean that in a positive way about even
clean gear is obviously not as safe as we thought
it was. So yeah, you used to not clean your gear,
not your helmet. It was more of that badge of
honor thing. So, you know, we're just as responsible
for, you know, kind of keep putting our heads
in the sand, not really understanding it. Absolutely.
Well, that's the theme of today's topic, isn't
it? All right. So what about athletics? What
were you playing and doing as far as sports and
exercise when you were young? So sports, I played
baseball, you know, all the way growing up since
I was young through high school. And then right
after high school, I got into the fire service.
I didn't really do anything now. I'm still active
in sports, not necessarily playing, but coaching
them. So I end up coaching our local middle school
team. um which i kind of have the privilege that
my my son is also on so one last one last go
around for that brilliant and what about career
aspirations you said you went straight into the
fire service were you always dreaming of that
or was there something else prior no uh so i
didn't really know exactly what i wanted to do
in high school you know my brother i know i didn't
want to work for dupont where my dad was you
know i seen him I was waking him up in the middle
of the night for him to go fix stuff at the plant.
He was always gone. My brother joined the Marines,
so he was gone. I thought maybe that would be
the avenue I would go is kind of follow him.
We got a family history of some veterans. And
I really didn't know. And then I was dating a
lady at the time in high school and her grandfather.
was a fireman he retired here his name is ollie
wayne powell he retired in 2002 from from gfr
he just kind of looked at me one day i was 18.
i was it was my senior year and he was like hey
man why don't you just go go volunteer so we
talked a little bit about some calls and i joined
lottie's little volunteer fire department i think
there was like 15 people on it or something like
that. I ended up joining it with my older brother.
He just got out of the Marines. And the first
call we got was a fire. And so I was able to
run my first ever structure fire with my brother,
pulling hose, going inside together. And from
there on out, I was just kind of hooked at that
point. So Ollie led me that avenue, just didn't
try to push me, but just told me to go try something
out. And now I'm 38. I've been doing it ever
since. So did you go to the Fire Academy first
or did you do an UNCERT program? No, I went through
the Fire Academy here in Ocala. Okay. So what
year did you go through? Let's start with that.
What year did you go through Fire Academy? 2006.
Okay. So as you come out, how competitive was
it to get hired as a firefighter when you graduated?
Oh, well, I couldn't. I put in my applications
a bunch of places. Gainesville, I don't believe
so, Marion at the time, but Jacksonville. I put
in for a bunch of places, not a lot of callback,
and I leaned on another mentor of mine. His name's
Rusty Barrett, also a retired guy here from Gainesville.
He was one of the instructors at the college
that I've known my entire life. He actually helped
me out, made a phone call to a chief in a little...
rural department here called waldo so it was
uh i was able to join on that get some experience
i started off part -time worked another job doing
some welding and fabrication and then uh in 2000
i worked there from the end of 2006 till 2009
kind of flopping back and forth and then marion
county blew up you know they were hiring left
and right, kind of needing everything, you know,
it kind of really took off at that point. I don't
even know how many people I had to go against
on that, but I ended up working for Marion at
the same time. GFR is where I wanted to be. And
when I was applying here, there was man, 500.
or more applicants at that point. They were putting
on their own process. They weren't doing the
NTN or the fire teams. They were putting on their
own process here, so you were going against all
these other people. And if you passed the physical,
you went to the written. Passed the written,
you go to the BPAD, which was like a psychological
type thing. And a couple times did not get through.
Another guy, he's a lieutenant here, I think
he applied three times and finally broke ground
on that in 2014. is when we got hired b -pad
wasn't that that that um video screen and you
had to go in and you were interacting with the
scenes they put us yeah they put us in put you
in a closet with a screen and recorded it was
like a ambulance driver call come out and they'd
reach over and just click turn it off and said
i will finish our lunch like and then they're
like respond what would you do in this it was
silly yeah it was silly It doesn't really bring
anything. I mean, you're just playing the role
at that point. But yeah. When I tested for Hialeah,
which was 2004, they had a version of that, but
it was just a cassette recorder. I shit you not.
So you're sitting at a desk in front of a tape
machine and they're just verbally saying that.
And then what would you do? And the other one
was recording. So you didn't even have the visual.
You had to imagine this whole scene that you've
never been a firefighter before and then try
and articulate a response. When I got the B -pad,
the video one, I was like, well, at least this
is an upgrade from the one I had before. But
yeah, interesting test. I don't know how accurate
it actually was. I don't either. I'd like to
see some of the old recordings and kind of some
of the guys I work with and see how they still
respond today. Oh, that'd be freaking, they go
viral on social media if we could find those
now. Oh, 100%. All right. So where in Marion
were you working? Which side of the county? So
I started in Liberty, which is station 32. So
that was my first station. It was between 200
and, oh man, it's not 454. It was on 49th, wasn't
it? Because I lived right next to it in Forest
Glen. Yeah, something like that. So I started
at 32 and then... as I started kind of progressing,
I wanted to go to paramedic school. And, you
know, when you go to paramedic school, you make
a little bit more money. And when you joined
the box and Mary, you made even a little bit
more money. So I decided to go over to station
21, uh, the friendship station right there over
by on top of the world. So I, and then I, so
I was there, I was at that place about four years
with the same crews, uh, same partner. He still
works there, uh, James Cabrera or, uh, Stephen
Cabrera. And then I ended up finishing up my
career at 19, which is up in Spar in the north
before I came to Gainesville. Was 21 the tech
station still when you were there? No. So that's
why I went to Spar. So it was not the tech station.
That was the station nobody wanted to go to because
you just ran all the time. You know, you had
the snowbirds and stuff like this. So everybody
was running. No, the tech did not come over until.
until they ended up bringing ladder 21 over so
the guys from 20 uh really wanted that new ladder
so you know people in charge at that point decided
that they'll talk them into it so that's when
in 2013 i think is when tech came over there
what about inter -facility transports were you
guys doing it at that point because obviously
you were pretty close to the hospital yep yep
We were still doing that. West Marion and Timber
Ridge, I think, was the name of the other one.
It was all the time. It didn't bother us. We
had a good time when I was there. I've never
really had a bad crew. It was all right. well
i i did my paramedic ride -alongs with marion
um i volunteered for an absolute heartbeat i
mean we're talking you know a few months that
was it because i felt like a ride -along at the
end of the 14 -year career behind me so this
wasn't the right fit but um there are some phenomenal
people in marion this is the thing it's like
trying to address the issues that are making
it harder for them and obviously we'll get to
station 21 again a little bit later in this conversation
but as a resident the inter -facility transport,
the 911 emergency rescue that should have been
available for my community where I live, when
that is being pimped out for hospitals to move
patients around, the residents didn't understand
or didn't realize what was happening. And if
we had a teenager bleeding to death in a car
wreck or someone choking, that closest rescue
might be on the way to Shands or whatever. for
a hospital rather than actually serving the people
that are paying the taxes yeah we we had that
experience too that i would question it at the
time because they used to do uh move -ups from
where we have and here in gainesville i understand
that you know the county kind of moves up and
whatnot because we're the city of gainesville
is the biggest municipality and then but with
with mary and you have ocala but out at 21 you
have the whole heartbeat out there of on top
of the world and stuff like that they would send
us to west marion on standby because of of transports
within the city send the other one out to timber
ridge to move somebody in town so you would have
gaps like kind of throughout here and there yeah
and this i mean this is this whole conversation
the biggest thing to me is the you know the the
health of the firefighter but then obviously
the delivery of service and i get to be both
because you know i live in marion county i live
in the city of ocala so you know it's the marion
guys that are guys and girls that are transporting
my loved ones god forbid something happens when
you talk about 500 plus people testing for gainesville
that was for how many spots in that class oh
we had my hiring group i think we had 10 10 guys
in that hiring group something like that There
we go. So it's a pretty strong ratio. It was
a vast number. It was a vast number. Now, I don't
know if that 500 is exactly like when I got hired,
but it was still super competitive at that point
that it was tough to get on. So at the front
door, what were the differences between your
Marion experience and your Gainesville experience?
Let me just back up real quick on... to say how
difficult this is so a good buddy of mine colby
perriman he he applied about three times he's
a he's a phenomenal lieutenant great great guy
his father retired here his grant like he was
a legacy guy and it was still tough for him to
actually get into the doors i really want to
hit hit onto that um is that that's happened
several times of like legacy employees like their
fathers their brothers like are phenomenal phenomenal
firemen phenomenal guys like they know the character
of the kid and it was still tough to even get
into the door during those times so it's really
changed kind of over the you know over the years
since yeah well this is an important perspective
because we're talking literally only just over
10 years ago that's it yeah and so in this we'll
get to that yeah you know it's like when you
talk about fixing it and the retention and um
the recruitment People look at you like, what
you're thinking about is like a unicorn with
rainbows coming out of his ass. And it's not.
It's literally the fire service 10, 15 years
ago. And the biggest question really is like,
what the hell did you do to the fire service?
You know what I mean? Where's that question?
It's like after COVID. Well, it was so mismanaged.
Where's the conversation on what we did poorly,
holding people accountable, and then what we
can do differently? I make the nation healthier
so that when the next virus comes, we're more
prepared. It's the same conversation in the fire
service. It has been such a nosedive. Even Anaheim,
I was talking to one of my my my engineer. And
when I tested in Anaheim in 2005, I was in the
written. I was in a conference center with a
thousand certified. firefighters, EMTs, or paramedics,
most of whom had ambulance operator experience,
wildland experience, explorers. I mean, they
had a resume as well. There was a thousand of
us for, my class was 15. So it's so important
for people to understand what it used to look
like, because then you get to choose that very,
very top tier of that list. And so, you know,
the physical fitness, you know, the mental resilience,
the ability to work with people, the dedication
to the craft itself, they're already woven in
because it was so competitive that we had to,
as you said, over and over again, keep adding
to our resume to be more and more hireable and
stick out. And then you look at what's happening
at the moment and we'll get to it. But, you know,
begging high school children to come do this
job and we'll train you and, you know, give you
everything. We couldn't be further than where
we were 10, 15 years ago. And this needs to be
contrasted so people understand the level of
this crisis at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Man, what
I know now, even at 18 years old, driving the
ambulance, 65, 70, through the city, going through
traffic, you don't realize that. That cat's only
been driving cars for two years. He doesn't have
that much experience and the weight of these
things that are going down the road. I think
those are the little things that people kind
of forget about. We can teach these guys how
to pull hose this and that, but the life experiences
of fire behavior and watching how it's going
to go and what are they actually looking for?
I think you kind of lose that when you're just
pulling kids from senior year. You're just trying
to shove as many people as you can just to try
to throw a Band -Aid on a bigger issue. Yeah.
Well, even from a physiology point of view, I
mean, anyone in the brain world, I'm blanking
on the right name at the moment, the neuro world
will tell you that our brain isn't fully developed
till mid -20s. So I'm not saying you wait all
the way till 26, 27, which that's kind of how
old I was by the time I entered the fire service,
but I didn't. have it right out the gate. But,
you know, look at PD, you can't be a cop until
you're 21. Now, if you make it super competitive
and you're building a resume after high school
so that when you're actually testing at 21, you
have some life experience, some driving experience,
as you alluded to, that even from a mental health
point of view makes you a lot more prepared than
18, no life experience. Your brain is still very
young and forming. And then boom, now you're
out seeing the horrible stuff that we respond
to. So there's that kind of responsibility conversation
too. Yeah, that's true. I think the mental aspect
could be one. I will tell you, I talked about
my first fire with my brother when I first started
out. And that was also my first body I've seen.
That's the type of experience that I've seen.
um where where gentleman was burned inside of
it so was i necessarily ready for that at 18
probably not but uh you know i think over the
years and the stuff that everybody kind of seems
they learn how to deal with those issues and
it's a lot better today with the amount of resources
that we have to get people help um so yeah absolutely
well talk to me then about the front door what
was different with gainesville than you'd experience
with marion the culture is very different so
the uh the culture here is it's a really good
culture so they train all the time the camaraderie
inside the house like we had it at 21 right but
marion is so big You can go from Liberty all
the way out into the forest and it's an hour
and a half drive, right? You have no idea who
those guys are. You really, every shift, every
station was completely different. You didn't
know them. Whereas here, you know, we have nine
stations. We're only 180 people deep, but you
know everyone. And you can talk to everyone.
And I think that's probably the biggest difference.
You still have that small town feel of a fire
department. Whereas over there, you are really
separated, I feel. So when you first walk through
the door, and then as we talked about, there's
this national recruitment issue. That's what
I was saying. So my Anaheim engineer was saying
that even their recruitment is a fraction of
what it was. And Anaheim was the kind of place
where, I'll give you a perfect example. When
I was moving back to Florida because I had my
son and my son's mother wanted to go back to
her family, this is why I left California, family
first. Not being arrogant, I was like, well,
let me just go do a practice CPAT, make sure
that I'll smash it when I go test with Orange
County. So I did the CPAT and the guy in the
CPAT testing place in California in the conversation
when you're on the stair mill at the beginning.
I was telling him I was an Anaheim firefighter
and he's like, dude, you are the first person
I've ever heard that's left Anaheim fire department.
You know, that's, that's what the culture was
like back then. And it was only because I was
moving, you know, 3000 miles back to the other
side of the country again, but you know, no one,
no one ever left. And it was so, so competitive
with, like I said, thousands of people testing.
And even them as this, you know, this kind of
gem in Southern California, that's kind of revered
as one of the pinnacles. they're struggling with
recruitment. So this is a national conversation.
So what have you seen from when you first got
to GFR to where you were a couple of years ago
now as far as recruitment and retention through
your department's lens? Okay, so I don't know
exactly what year it shifted when it happened
here. So Gainesville, everybody viewed Gainesville
as a career department. Nobody left once you
got here. And I want to say a couple of years
after that, after I got hired, we started kind
of seeing a fall off. And I don't know if it
was more of a generational thing at that point,
but we were behind in pay. We did have 24 48s
with a six, six week K day, which was, which
was nice. That was better than I had anywhere
else. It was just straight 24 48s. Right. And,
and then everybody else started kind of catching
up. And when you attach Kelly days, to other
places that are making more money and we're behind,
people start leaving. That class I had, we had
10. We only have four people left. So over 50
% left us. Now, all those guys are great. We
got a great group of guys. Everybody I got hired
with is lieutenant and above. We got two lieutenants,
a captain, and a district chief. So we had a
great, great group, and those other guys are
somewhere else as lieutenants. drivers and you
know they're successful there it would be nice
to keep them here but it's probably easier to
me to say is that since 2472s um we've lost three
people one for disciplinary issues one to retirement
and the other guy moved to north uh north georgia
for his family so they weren't leaving for other
departments you know that I think that should
probably speak volumes on where we are today
as where we were before when you're losing more
than 50 % of your recruiting classes to somewhere
else. Absolutely. What about, you know, illnesses,
deaths, et cetera? I mean, as I sit here in Marion
County in five years, there were five suicides.
There were several more that were kind of swept
under the carpet, attempts that, you know, thank
goodness the people survived, but, you know,
wasn't mentioned, wasn't acknowledged. not to
mention cancers and medical retirements and all
these other things too, which is one of the big
things that I'm so passionate about. It's so
funny that I'm disliked in this area because
I'm trying to advocate to stop those things from
happening anymore. I kind of hate it for an interesting
reason, but regardless, what were you seeing
in Gainesville as far as the impact of these
shifts on your men and women's physical and mental
health? Well, I do want to acknowledge some of
them guys, like with Marion. I've worked with
a couple of them guys. And, you know, one I knew
really, really well. I worked with him at 21,
and then he went to 22. And, you know, I hate
what he went through. I don't want to mention
his name on here, but, like, his son and my son
share the same name. And we talked about them
quite a bit. And he was a fantastic dude, man.
to see him go through that. And that's one of
the ones I didn't expect to kind of go through
that. But the shift here, you know, we've been
fortunate that we haven't had those types of
attempts yet. So we've had some people lose their
battles to cancer. We just had a guy that we
celebrated last year. His name was Tom Hand.
He had to medically retire because of the cancer,
but another great, great guy. So we've lost him.
We've had a couple here and there that have had
some scares. Luckily, with the cancer bill, they
were able to get help. The mental portion of
it. You know, we've had some people. We work
closely with the IFF Center of Excellence, with
Hannah here locally. We've had to send some people
up there over the last couple years. We ended
up getting a gentleman help last year. But I
also feel like that's kind of taking a dive,
too, where it's not happening as much. I had
a guy the other day, I think one of the biggest.
contributors to divorce is not necessarily that
you're a fireman, but a lot of it is the schedule.
You lose a lot of time through family events,
Christmases and Thanksgivings and birthdays and
baseball games and, and all these things that
I think eventually it just slowly chips away
at the household. Tuesday, one of the members
were down here and we were sitting in the office
and I was telling him about this podcast and
he, He looked at me and said, you know, since
2472s, he feels he's got his family back. He's
able, he's more present. He's not. He's not running
all these calls and then coming home and it's
taken over a day for him to really recover. And
then he's got a partial day and then he's back
here doing it all over again. Like he has days
to recover and then some to actually spend with
his family. He's been here 20 years in the fire
service. And he was like, I don't even know how,
like, it's silly to say now because he'd done
it for 20 years, but he's not sure how he did
24, 48. had the relationships like he was able
to maintain then as he does now. He's got a couple
little girls now and he's, you know, he's got
a son that's a teenager and he's able to spend
a lot more time and be a lot more present for
them. So I think that kind of speaks volume of
the mental aspect when it comes to being present
because of 2472s. And that's so important for
people to hear, because I've said this a lot
recently. The ultimate currency is time with
our family, time with our loved ones, whatever
that looks like. You know, for most of us, it's
spouses, it's children, but it might be a dog,
it might be a horse, whatever it is. But it's
you being present outside the fire service, you
know, ultimately doing the thing that this is
all for. You know, you go out there, you leave
your loved ones, you go serve your community.
And then the goal is that obviously all of us
are doing it. So the people that protect our
families are doing the same thing. And so really,
it's to, you know, it's for for them, it's for
our own family, ultimately. And so you look at
the science, which I've had, you know, so many
people on here, you know, the science behind
sleep deprivation, and all things mental ill
health, addiction, suicide, anxiety, you know,
everything, you look at the impact of sleep deprivation
on the prevalence of cancer is irrefutable. Again,
the science is their testosterone depletion.
But then you think about I've talked about this
many, many times. I worked for Orange County
and got mandatory over and over and over and
over again. And I was a single dad towards the
end, which is why I left. But you've already
worked in 2448. And then you've done your 24.
You're finally getting ready to go home. You
promised your kids that you watch their game
or watch their recital. And then you get that
phone call. You can't go home. And now you have
to tell the people that you love. that that promise
that you made you have to break which you know
adds guilt and shame but what's disgusting about
it is the men and women that are being forced
to work or you know let's be very clear too are
jumping on the grenade a lot of us sign up so
that you know our probie who just came on who's
going to get hit yet again and he and his girlfriend
just had a kid three months ago you're going
to jump on the grenade so he can go home and
be a new dad So, you know, cumulatively, but
these people are paying for the mistakes of leadership,
whether it's city and county commissioners, whether
it's chiefs, whether sometimes it's even, you
know, union presidents that aren't, you know,
fighting for their people. So this is what really
disgusts me is we know there's science behind
the physical and mental ill health or sleep deprivation.
And our men and women. they're not complaining
about being a firefighter. It's the work environment
that's set up for them to fail. And then as we
get into this, you know, with the nose diving
of recruitment and retention, there's more and
more and more vacancies. And therefore the overtime
is more and more prevalent. So now you're seeing
your kids less. When you do go home, you're exhausted.
And of course, I mean, it's just, you know, it's
basic arithmetic. If you have less and less time
with your family, you're more and more exhausted
and stressed. it's going to have an impact on
the family dynamic, on a marriage or your relationship
with your kids. You're not able to be present
in any moment. Your body's just solely focused
on recovering. And that's what we had here. We
had to make some changes on how we distribute
overtime because we were on that. We did a flip
-flop. We went to 48 -24s for a lot of people.
And how the overtime used to be, it used to be
to... lowest man on the totem pole it wasn't
revolving list it wasn't even like that and we
had to make a change because we had members that
uh sometimes we're our own worst enemies you
know sometimes not everybody always wants to
step up but we had a newly promoted lieutenant
and drivers that were getting mandated every
single shift and these guys got you know two
three four five kids and they're not able to
be there be there for him so we we ended up um
Not Nick, the president before that ended up
able to, through labor management, talk about
changing our overtime and how we're going to
distribute it and kind of making it revolving
that everybody's going to help everybody. And
that's kind of gone a long way where it's not
solely on that person anymore. But there's flaws
there, too, that we can fix. Yeah, well, and
we'll get to it as well. You know, you reduce
the amount of overtime to. a small amount. Now
everyone's just getting it once in a while. Now
there's not an issue. When I worked at Anaheim,
it was the exact same system. You were low man.
And there was a class, I think they were a year
behind us or six months behind us. So when we
hit six months is when we were in the barrel.
My base pay when I got hired at Anaheim, I think
was 58 ,000. I didn't sign up. And through mandatory
overtime, I cleared $100 ,000 that first year.
I didn't want to be working, but that's how much
extra work. So it was the same thing. Like you
said, every single tour we got hit and that was
a one -on -one off four times with a four or
six at the end. So when you get hit, a 24 becomes
a 72. So it was brutal. So, so yeah, when I'm
talking about all this, you know, this is cause
I've, I've been there as well. So, you know,
it really is a thing. And I think this is what
maddens me. You see some people on social media,
like everyone's talking about the negative stuff,
you know, love the job, be into the job. And
it's like, well, If you want to perform at a
high level, you need the rest and recovery. If
you want to perform at a high level, you need
your family to be intact. So I get that you love
doing a forcible entry prop in your shorts and
t -shirt while you film yourself. But if you're
really into the job, you'll be fighting for the
environment that allows you to perform at a high
level as a firefighter. And an understaffed department
working 24 -48s, ultimately 48 -24s, is not forging
fire service performance. Yeah. i agree so when
did the 24 for uh excuse me 24 72 conversation
even first percolate in gainesville as far as
a potential solution for this retention and recruitment
crisis that you were seeing well i think uh at
first we didn't think we would be able to get
it you know that that seemed such a far stretch
you know at the time you know talking to the
union president and talking to some other people
like the idea was out there, but you know, it
was, how can you convince the commission, uh,
to not deduct your pay, to give you more time
off, um, more standard time off, not just vacation
hours and increase sick, you know what I mean?
But how, how do you convince them that it didn't
seem like it was feasible? And then, so, uh,
I believe how, how Nick, Nick did it. And. Our
current fire chief Hill House, he they started
working kind of through labor management. And
I think the seed just got planted at the right
time, talked about it, talked about its benefits.
And then they dove into the numbers, really dove
into the numbers on how we were staffed and how
we can actually get there. So before. how we
we used to have a staffing factor of like 1 .3
or something like that so for every seat that
you had on the truck it was like 1 .3 so you
were able to make up you should have an extra
fireman when a fireman's off so you weren't having
to do that overtime and how we were able to do
go about it financially was we shift that 0 .3
over to that d shift and then that's how you
reduce the overtime that's how you justify making
that pay and that I want to say that started
around 2022 is when the seed actually got planted.
And then 2023 watered it a little bit more, started
having conversations with the commissioners on
the benefits of it. And some of the other places
here, like we weren't the first one in Florida
that actually got 2472s. Like there's some other
departments. We were able to kind of show what
they were doing and how it was working out for
them and the benefits of it across the country.
And come. Toward the end of 2023, I believe we
got it into the D .C. contract, to our district
chief contract of if this was to be implemented.
And we put an implementation date in that of
like October 1st of 2024. This will happen. And
so when we came up in 2024, our contract. Actually,
no, we put a reopener in our contract, I believe.
I wish Nick was here to kind of fact check me
on this. We put a reopener in our contract since
the DCs were able to get that, that we got to
have it. Like now the DCs got it. They can't
be the only ones on 2472s. We need to make it
wide. So a lot of work went into the commissioners,
went into our HR department and budget and really
through labor management between the union and
the executive team at the department. From a
financial point of view, two years ago now, just
over two years ago, I went to the IHMC Blue Sky
with the Marian Fire Chief, their union president,
Matt was there, Harrison. There was another guy
from, I think, Ohio Fire Chief. And then everyone
else in the room was, you know. working with
special forces, et cetera, et cetera. So high
level, you know, neuroscientists and psychiatrists
and, you know, all high level people. And each
of us kind of got to present on, you know, what
the issue was. And this was funded by the hospital
district after Marion had two suicides within
12 weeks of each other, young people. And ironically,
like as soon as I presented the shift site, because
it wasn't being discussed. and show you know
what a firefighter shift actually looks like
you know what happens with with understaffing
and overtime and their takeaway was immediately
well that's clearly what you need to do first
you know 24 72 sounds like that's the the biggest
bang for your buck and again as we hit we talk
before we hit record that's not the only thing
we're going to get to other areas that need to
be addressed as well i wish that it was just
the health of the people that was enough And
Sam Gray from Plano, Texas came on a few months
ago. And for some departments, that is it. They
have this great communication. But sadly, a lot
of government organizations, it's the dollars
and cents that's really going to sell it, even
if you're losing firefighters, which I don't
understand that as a human being, but it clearly
is a thing. So what were you seeing as far as
the downstream wasted money, taxpayers' money?
that you were able to show as you said can be
reinvested in a d -shift um and then justifying
it fiscally for the city and the taxpayer themselves
so um so right now so we did a pretty aggressive
implementation of 24 72s so we still had to even
though we put on this shift we still had holes
to fill So unlike some of the other departments,
Polk County did a three year implementation,
you know, phasing, phasing their end, you know,
being able to hire on the back end or on the
front end, be able to get those promotions and
stuff going forward until that date actually
came. Whereas we did a nine month implementation.
We said, you know what, we're going to move these
guys over. We're going to fill these roles. We're
going to have these holes. We're going to have
lieutenant's holes and driver's holes and fireman
holes. We'll fill them with overtime while we
put on our own promotional processes. So that's
what we do here is in our union contract, the
department, if we have internal candidates that
are, that are eligible for promotion, we put
on the driver's classes, we put on the lieutenant
series. And so we knew that for two years, two,
three years. commission knows budget knows that
it's going to cost a little bit money now but
this is what's going to be best for us to be
able to get people through the door to us get
to that point in three years so that's what we
did i think we've done in the last three years
or the last two years i think we've almost done
six promotional processes between the lieutenants
and the drivers rank to constantly try to turn
to fill those positions and then hire the firemen
on the back end so initially overtime was up
i got you know i think it was 400 000 little
over almost five uh just for like six months
so you're talking about a little a little over
a million dollars a year for that but what we
got in turn is we didn't have to go to marion
or jacksonville or or any of these surrounding
departments and just take their lieutenants and
drivers that just want that schedule we didn't
have to do lateral moves we were able to promote
our own from within which is what we wanted you
want the people that are already invested here
and know the department know the city and and
get them in there so our overtime numbers are
a little bit higher but that's what we planned
for that's what the understanding was between
the department the union and and city finance
how many vacancies do you have now in the four
shifts that you have uh we have seven seven more
coming on monday and i think we're going to try
to hire another seven either at the beginning
of the year uh but that is that'll go to um retirement
stuff so you're fully staffed pretty much we'll
be fully staffed with four shifts with four shifts
just to underline that so you are understaffed
with three shifts you publicly announced that
you were going to the 2472 and your recruitment
was so high that you're now fully staffed with
four shifts in just over a year Yep. So October
of 2024, we went to 2472s. And as we sit today,
we have, yeah, everybody in their lieutenant
and driver promotable positions. It's nice. We
get these firemen on, it's even better. This
is a good time to throw the grenade then. So
living in Marion County, having fought for this
change for... I mean, years now, given a lot
of people within that department, all this information,
IHMC, like I said, the Blue Sky Project, that
organization works with NASA and DARPA and Naval
Special Warfare to solve their problems. They
were fortunate enough to have that incredible
group look at this. 2472 was in their report
as the number one thing to fix. Locally, I know
that some people in their upper echelon have
been saying that the 2472 is not working in Gainesville.
And, you know, I don't understand why when everything
is laid out as a solution, there's still so much
resistance to that. But this is a real thing.
And I've heard it from my friends that are, you
know, the firefighters within the organization.
I've heard it from other people that this is
being told about GFR and that it's failing and
that you're going to go back to 2448 and it's
costing too much money. So, you know, talk to
me about that. I don't know if you've kind of
heard that on your end or not, but talk to me
about the successes that you're seeing so we
can dispel these myths and put that to bed. Well,
I got a phone call three weeks ago during the
FPS legislative conference up in Tallahassee
from one of the presidents. From a president,
I will say that. their fire chief within their
lieutenant class was telling them that 2472s
doesn't work like they were telling them that
we were going to revert back another department
you've mentioned on here has kind of said the
same thing that 2472s are failing and i will
tell you that's not even close to being true
Not even close. I can guarantee you they're not
talking to Chief Hillhouse or the executive team.
They're not talking to the city commissioners
here, or they're not talking to anybody in the
know. I think what those guys are doing is they're
doing their best job of trying to throw that
Band -Aid on an issue by trying to cover up and
try to say somebody else is failing to shed light
on their own faults without trying to progress.
So with us, yeah. A year and a half, we're fully
staffed. And I was telling you, the only time
overtime happens really now is after these seven
people is if somebody's on vacation or they're
sick because we're on a one -for -one. We didn't
overhire. With that additional people coming
on, like I was saying, we shifted everybody to
go to a one -for -one. We were at that 1 .3.
Those seven that are coming on hopefully at the
beginning of next year is to make up for that.
to elevate that again so when you have somebody
off they fill the slot where you don't have as
much overtime so yeah that that's far farthest
from the truth we knew that overtime was going
to be a little bit more that was the understanding
from everybody uh but it's worked year and a
half in we're fully staffed the guys are happy
we were able to implement some pay Some other
things we were able to address too with some
of our benefits that kind of helped that. So
I would say 24 -72s, if we were losing people
left and right and still losing 50 % of the department,
like we lost three guys since 24 -72s, a disciplinary,
a retirement, and a guy that had to go because
of family up in North Georgia. So we haven't
lost another one to a department yet. Well, Jennifer
Hunt -Murty, a local reporter, founder of the
Acala Gazette, just published a story on this.
Yeah, I know you guys talked the other day. You
were in that piece. Marion County's website says
they have 500 full -time firefighters, EMTs,
and paramedics. In five years, Marion County
has lost 528 employees. So I'm no mathematician,
but I think that's equivalent to the entire department.
Obviously, it's not the department, but that
shows the revolving door element. When we were
at IHMC, their president pulled some numbers.
In 2022, there was 173 ,000 overtime hours. And
if you do that at the average of 30, I'm probably
lowballing that, but overtime rate of $30 an
hour, that's $5 ,190 ,000. Now, back then, they
said that it was $18 ,000 to... hire a new recruit
so if you do that times 528 that's nine and a
half million dollars now jennifer talks about
that price being actually higher because now
they're training these recruits from school so
that's 32 uh weeks of pay plus all the the training
fees and then paying the cadre to teach um so
she was looking at more about 60 000 per recruit
and if that's the case Then to replace those
528, it's $31 .5 million. So this is what really
blows my mind. You guys have demonstrated the
success. Dixon Phillips is on here talking about
the success of PASCO going from a revolving door,
woefully understaffed department to a destination
department now where they're fully staffed, four
shifts, and each hiring class is full of veteran
firefighters and paramedics. But I mean, all
those figures alone, I mean, you're talking about
tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars
of taxpayers money that's being wasted because
they are refusing to acknowledge that the solution
is to invest in their firefighters and put in
a D shift. So this is what really turns my stomach
as a resident, as someone who, you know, started
this whole project because I lost my firefighter
friends six in two years. That the solution is
there and the money is there. And you don't have
to do the Gainesville where you do it in one
year. You can do the Pasco where you do it in
two years. You can do the Plano, Texas, where
you do it in four years. But you have to put
it out there. We are going to make this change.
What are you seeing? With all these figures being
so black and white as far as where the funds
are, the blueprint that departments like yours
and Plano and Boynton and Destin and some of
these other departments have already laid out,
what is the resistance? Why are people still
refusing? And let me be very clear, people who
enjoy a 42 -hour workweek that go home to their
family at 5 o 'clock every night. Why are they
not advocating for their men and women who are
being forced to work 80 plus hours with forced
overtime? I don't know if they fully understand
everything that encompasses on being a fireman.
The medical calls, the fires, the getting up.
I think the stigma. I think the stigma is, like,
you know, they stay at the firehouse, they have
beds at the firehouse, they can sleep, like,
all these things. I think that may be a stigma
when it comes to it, not realizing guys are up
constantly throughout the night running these
calls, running on, you know, espressos and coffees
pretty much, you know, to keep their energy up.
Honestly, don't know the answer to that. I don't
know if it's, you know, we're not doing a better
job of displaying exactly what's happening. and
what it takes in the fire service to become it.
But it is disheartening when you have a 40 -hour
employee looking at employees who are working
42, 56 hours. Or, I mean, the guy I was talking
to the other night was working 70, 80 hours a
week because of all that overtime. Like, how
do you look at those people and say, I deserve
to go home, but you don't? why you know my family's
more important but yours is not as important
like i think that's where it's disheartening
when you have upper management looking at an
employee and and you're telling them that you're
you're just a number like you're just a number
we'll replace you money's no object when it comes
to replacing you but to retain you you'll take
what you'll get and you'll like it and i think
that's that's bad business all the way around
Absolutely. I'm going to throw another grenade.
Your chief, Sean Hillhouse, sat with me on a
panel for the Florida Fire Chiefs Association
Health and Safety Conference. And we were with
Dixon Phillips, president of PASCO, Hugh Bruder,
chief of Boynton. So a wealth of experience of
people from different positions that have implemented
this and we're talking about the successes. do
that presentation you can sense that some people
in the audience are like you know starting to
understand it some people uh one particular one
a local chief stood up and expressed his um his
opposition to this whole concept and then a few
short weeks later someone said to me hey did
you know what the florida fire chiefs association
said in response to the House Bill 929 that Danny
Alvarez presented and Governor DeSantis signed
recommending a 42 -hour workweek in the state
of Florida. And they sent me the email. And in
that bill and multiple other things, and they
said they agreed with that, but they opposed
the 42 -hour workweek. And Sean, like I said,
had given a great presentation along with Dixon
and Hugh. Talk to me about that. We have this
national organization, and I want to be very
clear, not every person that's a fire chief in
Florida agreed with that, but that was a collective
decision from that organization, from the people
at the top. So give me a response to that as
far as, again, you've got these men and women
in the trenches being worked to the ground, and
the chief's organization, chief's association
is pseudo -publicly saying that they oppose this
proactive solution. Yeah, I think personally,
I don't think they I hate that they use the recommended
thing. I think they didn't want to have to force
departments to do something. I don't know their
financial situations. They just didn't want to
make that because it would eat their budget.
Their budget's not increasing. So that. That's
kind of hard for me to answer on why they would
do that. I know every department that has 2472s,
those chiefs love it. I mean, the morale increase,
the people that want to be there, it makes their
jobs a lot easier. And to see a big organization
like Florida Fire Chiefs Association, I will
say oppose it. Because when you put recommend,
like you're opposing, you're not wanting, if
you're not progressing, you're regressing. then
nobody's going to look at you. So they're probably
struggling more. Those departments that have
said that, those chiefs that have said that,
are probably struggling a lot more to try to
get people through the door and retain those
people than the ones that are saying, we want
to move forward. This is not the fire service
of 10, 20 years ago. This is the new way to do
things. This is the way that we want to see people
with their families. We want a work -life balance
because when you have that, you have better employees.
Absolutely. I want to throw something else at
you as well. In this conversation now, where,
again, the solution is presented as a 24 -72,
and let me be honest, let me be very clear. Of
course, it requires a leader to actually lead.
You've got to have these more challenging conversations
with your cities and your counties. I would argue,
really, the people that really need to hear the
pros and the cons of the taxpayer. I've said
this a lot. If your level of service is diminishing,
like going back to Anaheim, California, if our
truck showed up on your call, you had a combined
experience of, you know, like 50 plus years on
that rig. Now, you know, you might have three,
you know, two, excuse me, let me start again.
You might have four, maybe even three people
on that rig, but the combined experience could
be nine years in that entire rig. As we mentioned,
you know, I know it's changed now, but this was
a reality for us for a long time. Now, you know,
that ambulance that you thought was going to
be right next to you in that station ready for
your emergency call for your loved one is now
the other side of town doing inter -facility
transport. So I've said, well, does the taxpayer
know this? Are we giving the taxpayer a refund
for this diminished level of service? You know,
this is the group that we need to be educating
really as to. you know, the impact of the refusal
to make changes on the taxpayer themselves. And
this is, as I said, these millions that we're
talking about, not to mention, you know, my tax
is now going to be going to the lawsuits attached
to Station 21's debacle with this hazing and
these inappropriate terminations of some other
people. That's going to be us, the Marion County
taxpayer, paying those bills as well. The solution
that I'm hearing, though, is people go, well,
we're just going to go to the Kelly Day. Now,
please correct me if I'm wrong, but if you've
got an understaffed department already and you
put in a Kelly Day, you are punching even more
holes into the schedule without adding any extra
people. As you alluded to, it's not competitive
these days. Kelly Day is like a 30 -year -old
solution now. So now, you know, you and I have
a Wednesday Kelly. There's no one there to fill
it. So we end up working our Kelly day anyway.
So we don't get any rest and recovery, but they've
paid us time and a half. So now no one's actually
got any more rest and it's costing the taxpayer
even more money versus taking that money, investing
in a D shift over, like I said, two, three, four
years, whatever you need to make that doable.
And now you're actually saving money, as you
just discussed, as Pascoe's discussed, because
yes, like you said, you had a higher overtime
while you made the transition, but now you're
fully staffed. So there's the math. So what is
your perspective on this conversation of doing
a Kelly rather than making the bold transition
to the 24 -72? Well, the only way a Kelly works
is if you have the extra people. Like if you
had, if you were overstaffed and you can fill
those holes, cause then it is nothing but overtime.
You're filling it with mandated overtime. Me,
I probably should look at how Pasco really did
theirs. I think transitioning to a Kelly is fine.
If you're trying, if the. If the end result is
to 2472, if you're just trying to, if it's a
financial thing, starting to try to transition
to chop at that, that if you implement a six
week K day, the first year to hire on those people
to fill those roles, the next year, a three year
Kelly day. And then that third year you're at
2472 is like, you're able to transition to train
those people to get there while maintaining some
relief. I think that that goes a long way for
the body. That, I think, is fine. If you're just
going to say, hey, we'll do 24 -48 with a six
-week Kelly Day, but we're not going to hire
anybody or this and that, that's not going to
work. That's not even putting a Band -Aid on
it. To me, that's probably rubbing a little bit
of salt in the room. It's like, no, we'll give
you this, but we're not going to give you what
you actually deserve and you need. But, yeah,
I think it only works if you're transitioning
that way, and it is. I think Alachua County.
I think they're going to a three week Kelly day.
And I would say probably eventually they will
transition at some point. Yeah. But you're just
not going to get the increase in recruitment.
And this is what Plano, Texas did. They took
four years. They had no Kelly day at all. And
it's interesting. And people talked about you
having Kelly's and, and Pasco, but you guys were
six week Kelly. So that's almost not Kelly. So
you had a big chasm that both of you filled yours
in a year, Pasco in two years, and they're a
large County, but, but Plano. What they did is,
okay, we need a little bit more time. It's a
pretty big city. And so they said, all right,
this is our four -year plan. Year four is a 24
-72. That then forged their recruitment spike.
Year one, just like you said, we hire enough
to fill the gaps of our three shifts and then
cover enough for a six -week alley. So those
new people are filling the void. So James and
David actually... have to go home and rest and
and it's it's single time that's covering us
saying year two it's a three week kelly year
three 24 72 with debit days year four full 24
72 i'm almost guaranteed that that will be compressed
in play you know i've got a funny feeling they're
just gonna snowball just like uh pasco did i
think they had a two and a half year plan it
became a two -year plan and even then before
yeah yeah i think i think once the ball gets
rolling you announce You put on a date. Like
I said, we were aggressive on ours because we
needed it. That's what we needed here. But I
think that Pasco and Plano model is probably
better, especially if it works out for them.
But implementing it over time, but you have it
like, hey, three years, 24 -72s, here's the plan.
We're going to get you there. Come join us. We're
on the right path. And I think people gravitate
to that. And they'll look where they're at. And
it could be the 18 -year -old comparing departments.
if you got a guy that's looking at their department,
like we're, we're not going there. Like these
guys are at home, they're doing this, they're
progressive. Like it's time for me to make a
switch. What's better for my family. And I think
that comes with age too. Like 18, 19, 20, you're
not really thinking about that. You get up there
mid twenties, thirties, you're having kids. Like
you start valuing things a little bit differently
when, when you start up. making your own family
at that point of what's what's important here
like yeah you want to serve the citizens but
you also have these little ones at home and a
wife to uh keep satisfied that uh you need to
be able to balance out both so you can enjoy
both worlds i've heard people say well we have
you know we have a deficit of firefighters in
the state of florida so all these departments
are doing is just stealing our firefighters And
going back to what we just both talked about,
how competitive it was at the beginning of our
careers, I couldn't disagree more. The phrase,
the rising tide lifts all ships, is how we should
be looking at it. You've got your early adopters,
the Gainesvilles, the Pascos, the Boyntons, who
are forging a path. And thank goodness, you know,
I mean, this is, we've always known about Boca,
but Boca was this, again, rainbow farting unicorn.
It was the unicorn out there. But they actually
was just doing it right. And the origin story,
funny enough, of Boca was they were on 12s. The
24 shift was a punishment. Once they switched
to that, the guys were like, yeah, we're not
going back. This is amazing. So, but, you know,
so now as we start changing the fire service,
because I've always said. When we were young
going in and you went on the internet looking
about how to be a firefighter, all you really
found apart from Ladder 49 and, you know, Backdraft
was, you know, how to ace your chief's interview,
like things like that. There was nothing on cancer
and suicide and, you know, all the things, divorces,
alcoholism. Now fast forward to 2026 in this
internet age that we're in, you know, you can
ask Google or chat GPT or whatever. Is it healthy
to be a firefighter? And all of a sudden, oh,
my God. And what's the firefighter work week?
Well, 56, but this is mandatory overtime. That's
all there now. It's out there. So these young
people are looking at this going, and these young
people have to be very clear, Gen Z are going
into the trades a lot more because they're also
chat GBTing, is it worth going to college? And
they're like, unless you're going to be a doctor
or a lawyer, a lot of times, no. You've got tens
of thousands of dollars of debt and a piece of
paper that doesn't guarantee you a job. So they
are going into our. similar professions, but
they spend a year in college and become a welder
and make hundreds of thousands of dollars and
they go home when they're supposed to go home
compared to the fire service, underpaid, overworked.
They're smart. They value their physical health,
their emotional health, their relationships.
So it's very exciting that we can go back to
the level of competition that it... should be
to be a firefighter. It's no different to be
an ocean lifeguard in Hawaii or a Navy SEAL.
These are professions where lives are at stake
and we shouldn't be taking the entire list. I
think one of my friends in Ocala was saying that
I think they had like three positions. And I
don't want to misquote, but it was something
like five applicants or something like that.
It was crazy. And you're hearing this over and
over again. So you look at the ratios of, well,
who are you getting? And then what's the downstream
cost of the wrong employee? One of my police
guests said that for every person that you're
trying to get rid of that should never have been
hired costs half a million dollars. So, you know,
now you're going to these high schools and begging
these kids to become firefighters, of which some
are going to be phenomenal firefighters, but
some are going to be a damn liability and cost
you a lot of money. So I think that looking at
this as whoever's blazing the path is then opening
the doors for other to follow. And now we're
going to reignite the passion to be a firefighter
in young American men and women. We're going
to go back to that level of competition. But
we're not if people dig their heels in and don't
have the guts to actually forge that same path
in their own department. Yeah, I agree. It's
funny you said, you know, Ocala got three, five
applicants out of three. We were at those type
of numbers, like a tour 24 -72s. We were lucky
if there were seven positions, we were hoping
we can interview seven people. You know, we didn't
have it where you took that top tier anymore
of hundreds of applicants and stuff like that.
Like this last time we were able to do that,
I think, you know, I had the chief text me, you
know, we think we interviewed, we brought in
39 people to interview out of the tier that we
were. we wanted for seven positions. To me, that's,
you know, you're going after quality at that
point instead of just trying to fill the holes.
And that's where we need to go. You know, we
are a young department because of 24 -7 dudes
we hired. We're young. We spread the experience
off of round four serves so we can kind of balance
that out along with the DCs and the lieutenants
and all the way down. We did a non -certified
hiring group, and I want to say it was in 2022,
was our last, maybe one year after that. I don't
want to misspeak here, but those guys have actually
turned out really well that we spent out. We
got lucky, but they weren't 18, 19. They were
a little bit older, 20, 21. We got a good group
of kids. We chose a maturity level, I think,
that kind of meets our needs. The fire service
as a whole here recently, I think we got to do
better on selling it. I've always told everybody
being a fireman is the best job in the world
and it's the best kept secret in the world as
well on the things we're able to do. I mean,
you go into the house of these guys and girls
and, you know, it's almost like you're hanging
out again with your buddies. you know from school
and this and that and like it's just a it's a
different feeling instead of going in like unfortunately
now i'm i'm in the office now so i've got four
walls but you know when you're going into the
stations and stuff like that you're not stuck
in a cubicle and you're just stuck at the computer
and you're doing the nonchalant like just busy
work and stuff like that like you're able to
have these conversations and have that camaraderie
and build each other up like this the fire service
is the best kept secret and i think now it's
we got to do a better job the administration
needs to do better job like every department
should have a pio out there some kind of social
media specialist that's just putting everything
out there that the fire service does the fires
the ems calls the the wrecks that are going to
but overall like this is what we do this is why
we're great this is why the fire service is great
i mean the the president stands up there you
know Talking about trades. Talking about trades.
Going through the trades. You can make this as
a welder. You can make this. And I think we should
be a part of that group as well. Absolutely.
And it is. I mean, this is why I still fight
for the profession now. I haven't worn the uniform
for over seven years. And I found myself kind
of stepping outside because being inside, I just
wasn't able to make the change in that last department
I was at. But it is the greatest profession.
I mean, you think about the Swiss Army knife
that a firefighter paramedic is and what we might
have to do when the tones go off. Everything
from just simply cleaning, you know, cleaning
an elderly woman up and putting her back to bed
to, you know, hanging off the side of a building
to going down a confined space to I mean, you
name it, you know, snake removal. I've done all
kinds of stuff, you know, in the career that
I've had. But it is it's amazing. But we can't
keep. you know, feeding this fallacy that we
just fight fire. And then we sit around the firehouse
all day playing cards and petting the Dalmatian.
And, you know, it's 1950s fire service that was
still kind of perpetuating. You mentioned about
the non -cert. I think where there's a beautiful
opportunity to use that as well. I love Ocala
Marion's mentorship program here. They do incredible
work. Because there are some populations that
are underserved and, you know, primarily financially,
it's expensive to go to fire academy. It's expensive
to go to EMT and medic school. So I love that
as another option to go in, not to scoop up X
amount of people because you need to fill certain
quotas, but more to go into underserved areas
and challenge those young men and women to. reach
that bar and see if the fire service is the right
match for them. And so I think that's where a
non -cert program really has value is sponsoring
people that maybe just don't have the funds to
put themselves through fire school and then,
you know, bringing them into the fire service
as well. So I think it has a place, but not as
a blanket. Let's fill every spot with a non -cert.
Yeah. So we actually have that. So we, so it
is, it is a non -certified program. It's put
on. the it's through a grant program that the
city of gainesville gainesville fire rescue and
the brother in action have um you meet certain
criteria you have to make less you have to live
within the city limits uh there is that but that
doesn't guarantee you a job here um it's not
one of them things that all because you go through
this but it was more to elevate the community
to elevate the fire service that if you go through
it it's If you don't want to work here, that's
fine, but we're going to elevate the fire service
and these guys here that are underserved. I don't
want to say underprivileged because these are
really good people that are going through this,
but we do have that. It just doesn't guarantee
them a job here. Yeah, I think that's brilliant.
One more thing I want to make sure we talk about.
I want to go to some challenges that you have
with 2472 and then as we... mentioned before
we hit record we'll also talk about some other
force multipliers to to address as well in this
whole crisis but one of the misnomers and i had
a friend of mine um on the show who was a former
uf football player you know and there are some
fallacies as far as um you know the the amount
of income that you get from uf and some of these
other organizations because this is one of the
pushbacks i've heard too from here locally is
all well gainesville's got all this money you
know so let's let's debunk another myth shall
we we received zero money from the university
of florida so uh how our budget worked is through
property taxes and through our fire assessment
fee I don't, it's gotta be 40, 50, 60 % of the
city of Gainesville is non -tax because of the
university of Florida. Um, they don't, they don't
give us anything. We run calls there all the
time. We got stations around it, but they don't
pay per call. They don't give us a yearly million
dollars or something like that. Um, they bought
us a fire truck, I think because of the amount
of calls we were running, like back in, uh, like
2010, somewhere around there. That truck's not
even in service anymore. So, and they got us
Halligan bars during that time. But you know
what I mean? Like it. We've received nothing
from them. What they do do is, I mean, when the
Gator games happen, like we staff a hazmat team
there. They pay for the hazmat team, but we bill
them for that because they want us there. And
for medical around the stadium through our MRUs,
we run two MRUs there. That's all they pay for.
They just pay for that day of service of why
we're there because they're bringing in 100 ,000
people. But on a year -to -year basis, that's
it. They don't contribute whatsoever to other
than the jobs like they bring in tax wise, the
department budget, city's budget or anything
like that. Nothing goes into our pockets over
here from the University of Florida. What's the
history of that? Because I can imagine I actually
went to UF just a few years ago. I finished up
my sports science degree. and i can imagine not
only the teaching areas but all the halls of
residence i mean every time i've ever worked
near some sort of educational facility the afas
alone in those places were unending so what i
imagine there is you know a lot of response into
their property what's the back story of them
not paying any tax towards um fire um i know
it's been a conversation like they've had a bunch
of conversations like Not just fire, but utilities
and stuff like that that they utilize. I don't
know if I necessarily want to get in the weeds
of that because I'm not that educated on it whatsoever,
but I can tell you we don't receive anything
from them. Well, this is, I mean, we all want
to transition, but just to finish with Marion
as well, this is what kills me. There is construction.
Every corner of this county now is blown up.
We've got the World Equestrian Center. I mean,
hundreds of thousands of acres. I mean, huge,
huge, huge facility. I mean, absolutely incredible.
So there's no way in hell that there isn't tax
to fund, not to mention all the downstream wastage
as well, but income coming in. So I think this
has to be a conversation. And if they're not
taxing these businesses. then that needs to be
something that the taxpayer knows because now
these resources that we paid for that are supposed
to be responding to our homes are now being stretched
even further to cover these new areas. So debunking
that whole myth that there isn't the money, especially
now we're in this absolute construction boom
again, we've got to... look in the mirror and
go, how can you tell people that there isn't
money when there must be, you know, millions
and millions and millions of taxpayers, you know,
from these businesses, from these homes that
are being built coming into the county. So, and
then in your case, you know, at what point do
you draw a line in the sand and say, hey, you
know, we are responding consistently, constantly
to your facilities. We have to have a conversation
about. you know support in the fire service or
law enforcement or utilities or whatever the
conversation is um you know it's i don't know
we can't do you know more with less there has
to be a point where if you are using the services
you need to pay that's what taxes are yeah i
agree and i think the state should probably step
in for some of that like uh i want to say chief
hill house ran some numbers a couple years ago
of how many calls we were actually running and
they were we were trying to open up a door the
city and and uf when it came to it um to show
them exactly how many calls were running to not
just the facilities but to their student housing
to all these other things uh and i think that's
where it stopped it stopped at the beginning
of the conversation i don't think they wanted
to hear it because They got the money. The University
of Florida definitely has the money. They bring
in hundreds of millions of dollars, you know,
all the time, year round, football season alone.
I don't even know what the economic impact that
it brings to the city. But we're also in a construction
boom. We have high rises going up left and right.
Student or apartment complexes here and there.
You know, we don't see those for a couple of
years. We don't have those impact fees like that.
But. Eventually, the tide's got to turn. The
department really hasn't expanded like it needs
to. We've encompassed some more property out
west when it comes to annexation. That hasn't
came into effect yet, but we're getting higher
up. We're running a lot more. These apartment
complexes, these mixed usage buildings and everything
are becoming more of a threat when it comes to
it. We're not expanding out like we need to.
And eventually, it's going to come to a head
that you're going to have to dump more money
into it. One of the biggest myths I hear, again,
when people push them back against the 24 -72
is, oh, you're going to take a pay cut. And I
always tell people, have you ever gone to training
40 -hour workweek? Did they give you a pay cut
during that? No, you just changed your hourly
rate. So talk to me about... the shift as far
as the efficiency now for every hour that you
work, what you get paid. And then, as you mentioned,
there were all these promotional opportunities
that opened up with the creation of a fourth
shift. How did that factor into, despite losing
some of the overtime, actually reinvesting into
just a higher per hour pay rate for everyone?
Yeah, so that's all we changed. So their yearly
did not go down whatsoever. We just changed the
hourly rate to meet that, which in turn, as you
work overtime, your overtime rate is now more.
So it made up, and I think the hourly rate, it's
close to what their old overtime rate was. So
they're not losing any money there. One of the
things we did do to kind of help soften the blow
is because we're on that 42 -hour work week,
The first 10 hours you work is straight pay.
And that was a negotiation between the union
and the city for FLSA stuff. But that also helps
us on the back end when it comes to retirement
because we're capped at a certain amount of hours.
But that hourly rate just for those 10 hours.
equal or close to your old overtime rate so these
guys are are making more when they're working
24 hours they're off more they're able to recover
a little bit more on 48 uh and and they're not
having to be mandated as much either they are
picking and choosing ultimately when they're
off other than here recently since the flu kind
of seems like it took over Gainesville but it
you know they they get a much better choice of
when they want to work Yeah, the overtime, we
just increased the hourly rate. Dixon was talking
about. No, please carry on. I stepped over you.
Well, I was going to say when it came to the
promotional stuff, I wish I had that number on
to me. But yeah, we've had six promotional processes
and we just expelled our last lieutenant's list
with the promotion of Matt. He went from a driver
to the lieutenant. When you jump that range,
you know, we don't just slot you wherever you
are. You get a minimum of 5 % like when you move
up into that range to that next step plan. So
we also have a step plan that we implemented
with 2472. So people are averaging, you know,
maybe closer to 10 % when they move up and then
they get the step of that new rank. So it's definitely
worked out. You can make decent. living when
you're working for us. I think I spoke to Dixon
about this too. The next negotiation can obviously
be addressing the FLSA overtime element as well,
but it's also reframing the way we look at it.
The goal is to work 42 hours and then go home
to your family. Another thing that I don't get
as much now, but I used to get when I first was
talking about this nine, eight years ago. was,
well, if we give them more time off, they'll
just work more, which is a disgusting thing to
talk about someone on their time off. But that
being said, what they're thinking is, well, they're
just going to work more overtime. Well, if you
fixed the vacancy problem, now it's kind of forcing
people to then go, well, what else do I love
to do? If I want to make more money than my salary,
and we'll get to what we need to be making in
a minute, but it forges entrepreneurship. I love
shaping surfboards. I'm a personal trainer. I'm
in construction. So amazing. On your days off,
if that's something that you want to do and you
do it during the daytime hours and then you still
go home to your family and you have dinner and
you hang out and you sleep next to your spouse,
there's nothing wrong with that at all. You've
got a separate income. You've got a separate
identity, a separate tribe. All those are super
healthy. My only thing would be having a stipulation
is that you can't work overnight on your days
off. Work for another fire department, an overnight
ER shift, a private ambulance company. That's
our ownership now. We've created a healthy work
week. Let us be diligent on our days off too.
But having a second job, the responsible second
job, I don't think there's anything wrong with
that at all. So rather than looking at overtime
as boosting your income, what else do you love
to do? Go do that on that extra time that you've
got. And it's none of your business. Yeah, exactly.
You know what I mean? 42 hours work week, you
should be able to have a livable wage on 42 hours.
You don't need to know what they do on their
days off. If they don't want to work, they don't
have to work. I think when somebody says like,
oh, they're just going to work more overtime
or this and that, they're just throwing wet paper
at a wall and hoping that it sticks. But you
don't know an individual's... issues that they're
going for you don't know if they have high medical
bills or you don't know if they have a sick mother
that they're trying to do things for like you
just don't know and I think when when people
say that I think they're just uh ignorant to
me and I hate I hate to be like that but everybody's
different everybody's got a different situation
like you have no idea what an individual is going
through and if they need that money and they're
working two jobs like you know I mean, yeah,
that kind of pisses me off when people say that
because you just don't know. Like, somebody always
has something going on. Who knows? It could be,
I mean, it could be something silly. Like, my
son turns 16 here in a year and a half. I got
to get him a car. Like, I'm not going to get
him anything nice, but I may need a little extra
money here and there. you know god forbid people
do have sick kids or the wife is at home like
if my wife is off work she doesn't have vacation
hours and stuff like that so or pto like when
she's off she doesn't get paid that day so like
somebody has to be made up somewhere so you you
know they're just saying stuff without knowing
people's personal situation but ultimately it's
none of your business what they do um they can
do whatever they want yeah in my opinion Yeah,
exactly. And I think in your lane, 100%. And
then it's just but it's also education, educating
us on all right, what does sleep hygiene look
like on your days off? You know, how are you
resting and recovering to make sure that you
are, you know, fully recharged for the next shift?
I mean, we have we have a responsibility. But
there's so many things you can do without disrupting
your sleep on your days off. Yeah, I don't think
somebody should go work at another department.
You know, if you want 42 hours work in another
department or go work in the ER as a paramedic
throughout the middle of the night. I think that's
probably a little bit much. We're trying to promote
a healthier lifestyle and a work -life balance
for you. Take advantage of it. Don't complain
that you have 24 -48s, you're going to go 24
-72s, but you're still going to work 72 -24s,
and you're still complaining about being tired.
You have the opportunities now. You don't have
to do that. You can make a livable wage, work
a little part -time if you want to, or shape
surfboards or go sit on the beach for all I care.
Drive Uber, do what you want. But yeah, it makes
it a lot easier for you to have that work -life
balance at that point. Absolutely. All right.
Well, you mentioned about if you do it again,
you might do the PASCO framework instead. What
were some of the road bumps, some of the hurdles?
Because you guys are all pioneers and I love
the innovation and the problem solving that's
happening now as these departments in their own
unique paths are figuring out, well, what is
our specific journey? So what were some of the
hurdles and how did you navigate those? So Nick
actually had to do a lot of that lifting when
it came to the hurdles. Yeah, we would probably
have chose the Pasco County if that was the route
we were going to be able to go to, just to make
that easier transition. It's a lot easier to
talk about financial things, but we had to take
probably some lumps. We didn't get raises this
last contract that we would really like, but
we were able to implement. a pay plan that that's
based off of your merit on your evaluations and
stuff like that but we got a low cost of living
that's going around like we got three ones with
the reopener like those things take hits um but
that's kind of we knew that that That needed
to happen for us to get across the finish line
and then be able to address on the back end.
So, yeah, I probably would have gone the Pasco
route implemented over three years if we could
get people in the door, get them trained. The
big hurdle, I think me, I'm in the training department
and we had to put on so many, so many of these
promotional tests. Like it was a lot. It's a
lot over a couple of years that. It would have
been nicer that we could have took our time,
put people on it properly, brought people in,
paid the FTOs instead of it just like it's constant.
This list is expired. Boom, we got to have another
test. Now, boom, we got to have another test.
I think that's a lot on the department financially
on that end, too, instead of just a slow progression
where everybody still gets the same result at
the end. Beautiful. And then we touched on it
before. Talk to me about morale. Matt, when I
spoke to him. had said if they ever proposed
going back to 24 48 the entire department would
leave yeah i think they would everybody would
just quit at this point you know like i said
if you're not progressing you're regressing uh
and and the guy the other night it's you can't
go back when a guy looks at you and says he doesn't
know how he did it 24 48 and when they say that
they feel like they got their family back or
their mental clarity's there like How do you
argue with that, that things don't work? Morale
can be whatever it is. 24 -72s is not a morale
killer. Everybody wants to get paid more, right?
Everybody wants better benefits. It's hard to
compete. We do have a financial situation with
the city of Gainesville, but it has nothing to
do with the fire department whatsoever. It just
takes a quick Google between the utility. GRU
in the city of Gainesville like has nothing to
do with us over here like we're we're doing perfectly
fine but you know we do see the Boca's and the
Browards and all these other places Jupiter just
hired you know hiring ladder moves North Collier
like these places that have these high dollar
budgets you know they're paying their firemen
a hundred thousand dollars like that sometimes
that's tougher tougher just for people to swallow
when they are younger in the lower 20s or they
don't have families like once you have a family
and you're here and you're vested here like it's
tough to leave at that point um but i think with
24 72s we haven't had that you know what i mean
like we haven't had people just jump the ship
you know even the single ones we haven't we haven't
had that you know really jump the ship for even
those higher places because the culture The culture
here before I even got here, that's why everybody
wanted to work here. And that hasn't changed.
Like everybody still wants to work for GFR. We
got great lieutenants. We got great district
chiefs. We got great leadership. We got great
union leadership, which we've always had. Like
it's people want to come here for the right reasons.
And, you know, pay used to be on the back burner.
Now it's not, not so much, right? Like nobody
joined the fire department for. for the money
they enjoyed it for the job and what it what
it creates and then as you get older you know
people my age our age i'm not sure how old you
are they don't look at just just that dollar
on they look at how much health care is actually
going to cost what the retirement looks like
and i think all those factors go into it as well
and that's where we need to improve is those
other other little factors and i think we'll
be sitting just right yeah I've said this when
I got hired at Hialeah in 2004. I think they
told us how much we were actually going to get
paid about three or four weeks in. They didn't
even advertise the pay rate. And it ended up
being almost half what Miami -Dade was paying.
But that's the level of competition. I went and
worked for Marion. I had no idea what I was getting
paid. until I got over there, and I think it
was like $10 or something like that. When I was
working with Waldo, I was making like $8. I was
making more on the side jobs than I ever was
in the firehouse, and now I don't have to have
a second job. These guys don't have to have a
second job. They get to kind of choose what they
want at this point. Yeah. We mentioned before
we hit record about other elements that are contributing
to... the recruitment crisis, retention, et cetera.
You know, this, the 24 -72, Hugh Brutus has all
the time, you know, it's not the only thing.
Now I would argue it's the biggest thing. It's
the first thing absolutely to address, but what
are some of the other elements, you know, we
touched on leadership before we hit record. What
are some of the things that you're seeing that
we really need to pull out into the spotlight
as well so that we can create this culture, you
know, and kind of be talking about bouncing,
like going back to where you just joined a department
and you stayed for your full career. I think
it has to do with the leadership of the department.
Like if the guys don't feel backed, then, then,
then they're easily going to be able to leave.
And then the support from the commission, you
know, nobody wants to see that, you know, if
the fire department saves a couple million dollars
from, from 24 72s, are they just going to take.
take that just we'll just throw a number out
there two million dollars or that's going to
be saved are they going to reinvestment into
the apartment or are they just going to take
it somewhere else and put it into another project
that doesn't really elevate you know the city
ultimately it's just something that they wanted
to do and i think that that may take a hit like
if you're doing these things to benefit you need
to continually uh, reinvest into the department,
not just strip it. Uh, if you save them a hundred
dollars, you're just going to take that a hundred
dollars. Like something else can go into it.
Like there's always something to rebuild. Like
we need, you know, we do need help with facilities.
You know, Marion County is blessed. They got,
they're putting up, they're putting up, I think
11 I seen is being built right now. Like station
11, like same thing with Alachua County. Like
we have some infrastructure needs that we need
with our stations that when we save you money.
You know, this will pay off. I think within the
next year, it's going to show that it's going
to save that money. Like, hey, take that money
that we've saved and actually put it into the
other areas. Don't just strip it away from us.
Well, I think what's exciting is exactly that.
You know, you just on the recruitment and retention
alone, not mentioning workman's comp and, you
know, medical disability and, you know, lawsuits
from tired firefighters, for example. the millions
that will be saved, like it's just basic math.
You know, if you fill these vacancies, then you're
paying straight time. You know, people are staying,
not leaving. You're saving a lot of money. There's
an amazing opportunity then, just like you said,
to reinvest into other programs that will make
us even healthier and happier. So I'm a big,
big fan of punitive fitness standards. And I'm
not talking about, hey, tomorrow we got a standard.
And if you don't pass, then you're not a firefighter
anymore. Obviously, you'd have to have an on
-ramp. But, you know, there's no... no misunderstanding
at the fire academy of the needs of your strength
and conditioning and your fitness level and your
body composition i mean it's pretty pretty you
know obvious and if that is maintained through
a career your chances of cancer and heart disease
and strokes and even mental health issues you
know are much much lower So investing in, you
know, we've given the work week now that actually
allows performance to thrive, you know, and you
invest in the gyms. I know you're station one.
You've got that that gym upstairs, that kind
of thing. Investing in full body MRIs, you know,
every year, every couple of years, you know,
good blood work, you know, zero barrier to entry
for mental health tools. I mean. Every one of
these layers that you use and reinvest, like
you said, reinvest this money that's being saved.
You're making a healthier, happier fire department.
And therefore, you know, your level of service
is going up and up and up as well. Yeah, I think
we've done really good with the culture here.
You know, our old fire chief came in and he was
kind of surprised how fit our department is.
And I think that that was led by our FTO cadre.
with Jose and Colby and Rutledge and Bubba Ennis
and, and the Campbells, like them coming in and
they lead our recruitment class right off the
bat when it comes to, you know, fitness and everything.
And that, that kind of sprawls out throughout
the rest of the department when you got those
guys coming in and being able to lead that charge
and show the importance of it. And then on the
back end, you know, we used to do our own in
-house stuff with EHS when it came to our annual
physicals. But now we do life scan like we do
life scan every other year and the department
and the city stuff on the opposite year. So these
guys are constantly. getting checked getting
worked up having their scans done and i think
that goes a long way and then every station also
has their own gym um we have in our union contract
uh i want to say it's a little over i won't put
a quote on it but it's a little over 15 grand
like if you have equipment or something like
that that the department can use to replace to
get you more weights get you bands kind of get
you whatever you want that's going to help elevate
and keep you motivated inside the station. So
health has kind of been the whole thing all the
way around. Yeah, I think just the other thing
with the savings is now you go back to the negotiation
table and you're pursuing, you know, getting
rid of FLSA or a pay raise. You know, now you
can say, well, look, we saved you X amount of
million dollars. We're basically creating our
own pay raise now. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think
that's what it should be. Instead of taking it
and putting it somewhere else, reinvest it into
the people that you have here. Absolutely. Because
I've said this even nationally. It's not that
we need more tax money. It's not that we need
the Marion County or City of Gainesville residents
to pay more taxes. It's being efficient with
that money in the first place. And nationally,
we have 75 % of our nation is obese or overweight.
And we spend 20 % of our GDP on healthcare. So
to improve our schools, to support first responders,
all these different areas, if we just made our
nation healthier, you are now proactively reinvesting
that money where it needs to be. So it's not
about more, more, more. It's not greedy firefighters
wanting more taxpayers' money. If you can show
where the money is being wasted and you just
proactively make it efficient, then you're using
the same exact... you know amount of money to
forge a healthier and more fiscally responsible
fire department yeah uh yeah i hate when they
say you know you know putting more money in the
department or elevating you know we're doing
this and that for the department but i think
overall It's a lot easier for the politicians
and stuff like that to be able to spend your
money instead of their own money. It's a lot
easier when the bank, when the check's being
written from somebody else's account than your
own account. Well, I want to go to some closing
questions, but before we do, are there any other
areas, any other successes that you've seen from
this transition that you want to talk about before
we move on? I think we've pretty much well covered
it. Brilliant. Nothing's really coming glaring
right now unless you have something off the top
of your head. No, I mean, if we're talking about
saving money, saving relationships, saving lives,
I think we've pretty much presented the case
for the 24 -72 today. So, all right. Well, the
first of the closing questions, is there a book
or are there books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion today or
completely unrelated. completely underrated or,
uh, unrelated. Uh, well, so wow. Um, yeah, I've
read a couple of them. I've read a couple of
the David Goggin books. I really go when it comes
to motivating. Um, but some big ones I'm into
right now is, is I like to talk to the younger
guys about budgeting, like when it comes to comes
to things. And I think it's because when I was
in my lower twenties and stuff like that, didn't
have kids in that, it was just, Paycheck to paycheck,
baby. Let's go out, have fun, blow it on anything
that we want one night. I think that is something
that I try to tell these guys when they come
in the door, talk about retirement, talk about
putting stuff away in Roth and 457, getting them
in with the ICMA guy to kind of talk about that,
not going out to buy the new boat or the new
truck within the first year. So I think a lot
of the Dave Ramsey books, total money makeover
and stuff like that. I think that goes a long
way for individuals. To me, I think that that
is a big one for the younger generation is kind
of understand that don't make the same mistakes.
You know, I have and you know, when when I was
younger, I just realized there was one grenade
I forgot to throw. So let me just squeeze that
in quickly. I've said this a few times, I paid
my union Jews my entire career. Yeah. What disappoints
me is that our current, you know, with the previous
leadership, obviously we learned about a lot
of corruption. The current leadership are out
of the city of Boston who work 24 -72. I have
not heard any conversation about making that
a national standard from the IAFF stance. Why,
if you even want to present any kind of thoughts
there and being proactive, you know, what...
How can we how can we force that where not even
force is the wrong word? How can we encourage
that to be a professional standard? Because,
I mean, you know, law enforcement has their own
of, you know, 40 or 42 hours, you know, nursing.
I mean, all these other ones have it already.
But we have this mish from a 24 -72 all the way
to our federal firefighters of, you know, 24
-24. Knowing it works in their own city, knowing
now that there's this ground grassroots. uh movement
here in florida i would love to see the support
that iff so we can make this a national conversation
what is your stance on that well i think i think
eventually ed kelly and frank lima who who is
the president and the general secretary i think
that eventually will happen um i don't know why
it's not being pushed i don't know if they just
have some other big ticketed items that they're
trying to go after first you know they were going
through the uh the social security issue and
stuff like that. They got past the nationally
cancer bill and everything, but I will, I can
tell you from experience, I went to Boston, uh,
20, was it last year, 2024. I went up to Boston
for the international convention and Walt Dix,
who's the IFS, uh, district 12th, uh, vice president.
We, we were at. a gathering and I spent the entire
day from people from Indiana, Nevada, Nebraska,
Tennessee. Like he had me just talking to every
individual on how we implemented 24 72s and the
avenues that we took to guide there. So the talks
are happening. Uh, I probably talked to a couple
hundred people like when it came to it. So I
think overall it's spreading throughout the country.
Uh, I didn't realize how. We weren't the first
ones. Like I said, we said Boca had 2472s, but
it really didn't take off the conversations until
we ended up doing it here in Gainesville. Because
I talked to the Plano chief had reached out to
us. I've talked to guys in Kentucky and New York
and Chicago areas, like all over the country
about this. And I didn't think this tiny, small
department that apparently. Punches above its
weight class with 180 operations guys that the
impact we were able to have across the country.
So I think it is going to happen. I don't know
what it would take to get Enzo to actually go
around it. I guess I can ask him here in August
in Dallas for the next convention on when they're
going to push it. Yeah. Because I mean, to me,
you just need to say it publicly. You know, every
municipality has still got to work out how on
their own, but to say that this needs to be the
future of the fire service would be immense.
You know, this is the only real network outside
of, as I mentioned, the Chiefs Association, of
which, you know, let me be very clear, Ohio has
reached out. They've got a podcast I'm going
to go on. Their Chief Association is talking
about this, you know, on their statewide level.
But I think to have this national conversation
with the IFF is just behind it. You know, you
don't have to. figure out the funds for every
department yet but just to say this needs to
happen and we enjoy it in our department and
you know i had the dc one of the the um the chiefs
from dc on there i mean they don't have a recruitment
crisis there 24 72 you know understanding how
many people in northeast have enjoyed this for
a long time and how it is you know benefiting
them that would be a powerful thing. And then
we're talking about cancer and we're talking
about mental health. Well, this is behind all
of those as well. It's a big, big part of the
puzzle. So I hope that, you know, one day we'll
see him stand up on the podium and just simply
say, yeah, this needs to be the future of the
fire service, a standardized work week across
the board. Because people will be, oh, but some
stations, they don't work. It doesn't matter.
You are still away from your family for 24 hours
at a time. You're still getting disrupted sleep.
Because, you know, you might get woken up, you're
not sleeping deeply. And so it's not about, you
know, are you running calls 24 hours without,
you know, seeing your bed. It's about being there
when your community has that disaster and how
many school shootings happen in the middle of
nowhere, how many train derailments happen, you
know, you don't, you're not justified. We don't
have to justify our job by constantly running
calls. It's about being prepared physically and
mentally, being prepared operationally. So God
forbid your family has their worst day, you've
got a group of men and women that are ready to
respond. So it should be a national conversation.
Every other industry has a national work week,
and I'm pretty sure that's the fundamental reason
that we have unions is pay and working conditions.
So I hope we see it soon. Yeah, we don't get
paid. We get paid for what we've done, what we
do, and what we're probably going to have to
do. And I think that probably should be spoken
a little bit louder than just, like, these guys
have a kitchen and beds at the station. We're
here for the drop of the hat. Like, when it goes
off, you've got 60 seconds. You've got 60 seconds
to, you know, wheels are in motion on whatever
that call is. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well,
the closing questions again. What about... a
film documentary or television shows that you
like oh boy uh i wish you would have prepared
me for these yeah uh films films i like i like
a lot of well i like comedies some of the older
films you know i like you know man america american
gangster um Scarface, some of the older classic
movies I really enjoy. A lot of the more comedies
I enjoy, especially me and my wife. I don't do
scary movies anymore. It's just not my jam. But
any of those, I'm not afraid to admit, some of
them rom -com things with my wife, I get a good
laugh out of. Documentaries, I probably can't
give you. I'm at the ball field a little too
much. So between both of my kids, I mean, I'm
at a softball field or a baseball field most
of the time. So I don't get to sit down and watch
a whole lot of series. I'm still trying to get
through a land man right now. And I'm on like
season two. I don't even, I think there's a couple
of seasons after that. So the guys inside of
training don't even talk about it. Scary movies.
Do you dislike them because of. What you don't
do as a career. Cause I know I had, I was into
it when I was a teenager and then being in the
fire service and obviously seeing all, you know,
the real pain and horror in the world. I kind
of had a moment one day where I was like, so
people sit down after a busy day and want to
decompress by watching a cabin full of teenagers
get tortured and mutilated. And so I like scary
movies like the grudge and all that stuff, but
there's a certain level of war that I just don't.
see as entertainment anymore yeah i don't i don't
know if it's necessarily the fire service that
cause i never actually tried to link that to
be honest with you it's just it just kind of
happened one day it just wasn't my jam anymore
it's like you know what i kind of don't want
to watch that i want to watch you know something
that's going to you know make me laugh or or
uh you know something that's kind of a little
bit more uncontrollable for me is i don't like
those my son does like those what are those uh
when they just pop up like the shock factor type
stuff that's that's not my jam all the marvel
movies i'll watch i love marvel i've watched
all those like those are the types of things
i kind of enjoy when it comes to movies that
and gang old gangster movies i enjoy all those
so brilliant yeah no scary movies not my thing
Well, next question. Is there a person you'd
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest
to speak to the first responders, military and
associated professions of the world? Just about
kind of anything. Yeah, there's probably a handful
of people that I would say you should talk to.
Just to kind of about anything, Scott Chappell
is one of them. He's a guy that's wealth of knowledge,
used to work in Marion County. I think he's retired
now. Don Campbell, he's one of our district chiefs,
another wealth of knowledge on task force aid.
He's in training. His brother, Sean Campbell,
another guy that's just, I mean, some of the
smartest dudes I've got to know and just infatuated
with everything in the fire service and can.
come off the top of the head on anything. So
that would be some of the guys I recommend. You've
already talked to Sean Hillhouse, who's another
good one. I've talked about Nick, who kind of
fathered in the 24 -72s. I don't know, since
you brought up, you know, Frank and Ed Kelly,
I'd probably bring in Bernie from the FPF. Bernoska,
Wayne Bernoska. He's the FPF president. And maybe
ask him if he's going to push forward on the
42 -hour work week to see if they'll remove that
recommended to put it in play. Yeah, it's a good
idea. Yeah, thank you for all of those. Yeah,
I've had Don on, I had Scott, but Sean actually
taught me in several of the special ops classes
at the college. So he'd be another good person
to get on. Yeah, he's good. Yeah, and then Nick
as well, like you said, detailing the journey
and his role now. I tried to get him in today,
but he's on duty. Yeah, no worries, no worries.
I'm glad that we did it today, so thank you.
Last question before we make sure everyone knows
where to find you. What do you do to decompress?
What do I do to decompress? I watch my kids at
the ball field. Like I was saying, I currently
coach the middle school, but I enjoy sitting
on the other side of the fence and just kind
of watching them. And now, you know, I'm still
young. I'm 38, but my son turns 15 at the end
of the year. My daughter's about to turn 11,
and I'm starting to realize it's moving a lot
faster than I wanted it to, especially at their
current ages. So I think decompressing. I mean,
the ball field has to – I don't even know if
that's decompressing. I'm stressed out most of
the time watching them. But I think just enjoying
them and kind of reaching back on the little
things, watching them grow up is my decompression.
My wife will probably say I'll stare at my phone
a little bit too much here and there, but I think
that's just kind of the way of the world now.
I need to do a better job of that. But spending
time with my wife, getting to laugh with her,
and just kind of – being infatuated watching
watching your kids what it's it's funny this
is usually what most people say and it just loops
around again to the extra time that people in
Gainesville Fire Rescue now have with their their
family their their decompression the reason that
they do it for so you know it's it's uh it's
full circle with that so for people listening
if they want to reach out to you learn more about
you where are the best places to do that online
or social media So social media, yeah, I'm pretty
simple. It's David Shuford. My name's listed
here. I won't give out my phone number because
that'd be a lot, but they can email me and I'll
send them my phone number, but it's president2157
at gmail .com. Anybody can message me on that,
on any information they got, and I'll send them.
I got a little worksheet I can send them from
that Nick made about 24 -72s. It's kind of like
a little quick pick. And then I'll send them
my numbers if they want to have a longer conversation.
So that's probably the easiest way. Or they can
call the department. I'm in training Monday through
Thursday. Somebody there will give you my phone
number as well. Beautiful. Well, I want to thank
you so much, mate. It's been so great to hear.
a year plus later, because all the reasons that
you guys made this courageous change is still
going on in a lot of places. But to debunk some
of the myths, some of the naysayers, to hear
the successes, to hear the testimony, as you
said, of family units being brought back together
again, I hope it's enough to really inspire people
that are on the fence. I think a lot of people
just need the hope that this is the right way
of doing it. It infuriates me because people
say, oh, we need to see data. It's like, we don't.
You keep putting that phrase up as a hurdle to
make this progress yourself. Listen to Dixon
Phillips. Listen to you. Listen to all the other
people I've had on. And for anyone listening.
the Behind the Shield podcast website, jamesgearing
.com. There's a 24 -72 tab, and I'm going to
add this episode to it. It's literally about
30 different links, everything from people like
yourself to neuroscientists, to sleep medicine
experts, to strength and conditioning coaches,
everything that's related to this conversation.
So we don't need any more data. I mean, we're
having these testimonies from departments like
you now, and I hope this conversation gives whoever's
listening the courage. to fight for their own
men and women. So I want to thank you so much
for being so generous with your time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah,
no, I appreciate it. You know, sometimes data
is important. And I think the biggest factor
on that is, you know, we weren't staffed, now
we're fully staffed. And, you know, I didn't
even get to the numbers of vacation hour use
compared to sick and how much more people are
actually at work compared. I mean, it's... Let's
talk about that. We don't have to close out yet.
Let's put that in at the end, please. Well, I
mean, so we plan, I think it was Plano. I'll
have to look, but you know, these guys reached
out about how many, how many hours we were using
in sick leave before and sick leave. After, same
with vacation. I mean, the difference in vacation
was 3 ,600 hours used. Like, that's how much
less hours were used in vacation, six months
hours compared to previous. And then vacation
was, or sick leave was the same thing. It was
over 2 ,400 hours. So the people are wanting
to show up to work more because they feel like
they don't have to use those hours just so they
can spend time with their families. they can
actually bank those hours because they want to
be at work they can be at work and they don't
feel so ran down so if you want data you that's
easy data you can pull how much vacation and
sick sick leave is being used and along with
the other stuff the injuries and everything like
that and fsu studies i mean all that's there
if you want data the data is there it's just
if are you are you willing to actually look at
the actual data instead of just saying you need
more so absolutely well again thank you so much
i'm glad we hit that at the very end but i really
appreciate you coming on the show today Yeah,
no, I appreciate it. Thank you.