WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Geering, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show Navy

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SEAL veteran, Echelon Front leadership instructor,

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and the founder of Primal Beef, Sean Glass. Now,

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in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics

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from his unique journey into the military, notable

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deployments, the Afghanistan withdrawal, the

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industrial military complex. sleep and performance,

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regenerative farming, and so much more. Now,

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before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you, Sean...

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Glass. Enjoy. Well, Sean, I want to start by

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saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Jason

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Gardner, who for the second time brought me along

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to the Echelon Front in Orlando. And secondly,

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I want to welcome you on to the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. I appreciate that. Jason is a

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good friend of mine, mentor of mine. I joke around

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that he has been babysitting me for a long time,

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both in and out of the SEAL team. So he's a good

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man and I'm glad he brought us together and I

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appreciate the opportunity to spend some time

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with you. Yeah, likewise. Well, very first question

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then, where on planet Earth are we finding you

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this afternoon? Okay, well, right now I'm in

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my office, which is in our... pole barn which

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is on our farm in virginia so my family and i

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have a uh about a 60 acre farm in the northwest

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corner of virginia right in the middle of the

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shenandoah valley so um we got pretty lucky it's

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a beautiful farm it's a very historic farm it's

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been running since the mid 1860s we've got Cattle

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is our main thing. And then we've got some chickens

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just for us, basically. But it's been a nice

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way to transition out of city life in San Diego,

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where I was when I was in the Navy, and kind

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of get back to the way that I grew up, which

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was on a farm as well out in Texas. So this is

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my office, which is why it doesn't look too fancy

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or too well decorated. But this is where I take

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all my calls and do stuff like that for Echelon.

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Yeah. Well, my office behind me is a mess, but

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I never show my videos so I can get away with

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it. All right. Well, just before we go to the

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beginning of your timeline, we just had that

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crazy cold front blast through. What was your

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experience in Virginia? Well, we got about 10

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inches of snow and then about two inches of frozen

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rain on top of that. And then we stayed in the

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20s basically for almost a month. Right now it's

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in the fifties and it's starting to melt. It's

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almost all melted off, but we had just a layer

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of 10 inches of ice basically for almost a month,

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which, um, You know, it definitely throws a wrench

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in a lot of systems, especially on a farm. It

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means that you're putting out a lot more food

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every day for the cows because they can't reach

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the grass and they use the food to regulate their

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temperature. So it was like every day rolling

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out hay for them. And then we have five kids

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and they love to be outside, but it's like, what

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are they going to do outside with ice? So it

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was basically like, hey. board games if they

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weren't at school it was like we were playing

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board games or cards or something for a month

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straight which is actually pretty cool but i

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am very happy to not have the snow on the ground

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anymore yeah i i grew up on a farm and i remember

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the horse troughs were a big problem because

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they would freeze over and this is england not

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as cold as virginia yeah how do you keep the

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the hydration going during the freeze so we're

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very fortunate and we have uh two different sources

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of live water on the rant on the farm and they

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Cover basically almost the entire farm. So we've

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got a smaller creek at the front of our property,

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and then we have about a 20 -foot creek that

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runs into the Shenandoah River. So that thing's

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always running. It's never frozen. It basically

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moves too fast and has too much volume of water

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in it. So the cows are in that back pasture where

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that creek is, so they always had access to the

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water. Even if maybe it was a little bit colder

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than they were used to, they could still get

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it. Brilliant. Well, you mentioned Texas. Let's

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start at the very beginning then. Tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Yep. So I was born outside. I

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was actually born in Dallas, but we lived in

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a town called Blooming Grove, which is a little.

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like a thousand person town. And we weren't really

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even in the town of Blooming Grove. That was

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just kind of the nearest zip code that they could

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attach to us so we could get mail. And the city

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that we kind of did school, sports, all that

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stuff in was called Corsicana. And we had, we

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lived probably about 15 minutes outside of Corsicana.

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And my parents had a small farm. It was about

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57 acres, I think. And they raised. Primarily

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when I was younger, they raised Arabian horses

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and then offloaded those about halfway through

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my childhood and had some other animals. But,

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you know, I had mom, dad, two sisters, one older,

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one younger and me. And then outside of that,

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I mean, really kind of your normal childhood,

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church, school, sports, all that good stuff.

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Did you ride a lot when you were younger? You

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know, I did not, and I regret it, but I was pretty

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young. And to us, it was, at least to me, it

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was just work. The horses were just more work.

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And even... If I wanted to ride the horses, it

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was still work. It was like, well, you got to

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get them in the stall. You got to put the saddle

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on them. You got to ride them for a little bit.

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Then you got to let them cool down. Then you

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got to wipe them down. Then you got to do this.

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Then you got to. So for me, no, I did not ride

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them that much. And looking back at it, it was

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definitely a wasted opportunity. But I think

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I was like 10 maybe when we started getting rid

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of the horses. So, you know, if we had. horses

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today i would definitely utilize them a lot more

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but as a kid for me i looked at a horse that's

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like a thousand pounds worth of work Yeah, we

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had the same. My dad was a horse vet, a veterinary

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surgeon. So we never actually owned our own horses.

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My sister had one when she was younger, and then

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my mom had one. But the rest of us just had to

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ride whatever was being boarded at the time,

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which was Russian roulette on horseback, basically.

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Yeah, yeah. It's probably smart of your dad,

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too. He's like, I know how much horses cost as

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the horse vet, so we're not getting one. We'll

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borrow everybody else's. Well, he had five kids,

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too. So he's like, well, if one of them dies,

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it is what it is. Saves money. Yeah. All right.

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Well, then, so what about your parents? What

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were they doing profession -wise? So my mom was

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a medical tech before we were born. And then

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when my oldest sister was born, she stayed at

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home until my youngest sister, who's two years

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younger than me, until she was school -aged.

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And then she took a job at our school, at our

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private school, teaching science. And then she

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did that almost all the way up until... My youngest

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sister was in high school and then she switched

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over. We have a junior college in our hometown

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in Corsicana. And she took a job as, you know,

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science, biology, kind of running the gamut of

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instructing over at the junior college. And she

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just retired, I think, three years ago from there.

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And then my dad was kind of a serial entrepreneur,

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still is. Him and my uncle, his brother started

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a couple of different businesses. But the vein

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of things that they had that ran through all

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the different businesses, they were always kind

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of dabbling in real estate. And that's mainly

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what they do now is buying real estate and managing

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real estate. Was your mom teaching when you were

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a student at the school? She was, yeah, which

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was both good and bad. It was good because if

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I forgot something, I could just go over and

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get it from her. It was bad because when I did

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things like forge her signature on a test that

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I didn't do very well at, my teacher could just

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walk my fake signature over to her and go. This

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is a little shady. Is this really what your signature

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looks like? And she would go, no, absolutely

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not. So it had pluses and minuses. What if, if

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you've had this conversation at all, what is

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her perspective on the devolution or evolution

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of education over the last couple of decades

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or so? There's been some interesting research

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that's come out that has shown for the, and it

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just came out like a couple of weeks ago that

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shown for the first time. At least as long as

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we've been keeping these stats, unfortunately,

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our kids are dumber than us. And that doesn't

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happen by accident. And I think the main cause

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that they're pointing at is the amount of technology

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in school and the over -reliance on technology

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and the under -reliance on kind of like rational

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learning skills. My kids are, I think, very fortunate

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because they go to a private Catholic school

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in our hometown that's a classic education. So

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like they're studying Greek, they're studying

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or so they're studying Latin, but they're studying

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like Greek philosophy and the foundations and

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the pillars of Western civilization. It's a no

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technology school like whatsoever. So there's

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no tech in the classroom. There's no phones allowed.

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But I don't think. It's a good thing that we're

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allowing all this tech in. There's probably a

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balance that needs to get struck between learning

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how to function in a technologically advanced

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society, but then using that too much to our

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disadvantage. I had Dave Castro, one of the heads

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of CrossFit and Navy SEAL on a while ago, and

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he was talking about that. He said they're called

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the classics for a reason. That's why you teach

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them because they've been around for millennia.

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And obviously the knowledge in there is so important.

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But I think another kind of reoccurring theme

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I hear in American education is the standardized

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testing as well. We're not teaching to inspire

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kids to have a hunger to learn. We're teaching

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kids for a test. And in a lot of areas, if that

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school then doesn't do well in the test, they're

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financially penalized, which if you look at the

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100 ,000 foot view, 10 ,000 foot view, excuse

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me. Usually the ones in the areas that are struggling

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need more support, not less. So we've got that

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whole thing completely backwards as well. Yeah,

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I would agree. And just without getting on like

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a total tire on education, our whole system of

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instruction is pretty antiquated. And it's based

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off of a early 19th century form of education

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that came from kind of like the Austro -Hungarian

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Empire. And it was designed, their system of

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education was designed not just to educate the

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child, but to make good. uh citizens who will

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do whatever the state tells them to do as far

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as fighting battles and wars and whatnot so um

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we had a representative from our before it was

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the department of education that went over there

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to like study that model and was like this is

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great and brought it back so i would argue almost

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from like the founding of what we consider to

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be our culture of how we teach in this country

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i would consider it flawed and i think there

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is a lot better systems that we could utilize

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but the problem is you know how do you restructure

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an entire system I had a guy, Pasi Sahlberg,

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on the show from Finland, and he tours the world

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talking about the Finnish system. And you listen

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to what they do. There's lots of recess. It's

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a shorter school day. And they're teaching the

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child holistically, like the whole child, not

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just, you know, grades and academia. So, yeah,

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I think this is one of the things. We've got

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to be careful when we beat our chests and say

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we're the greatest country in the world. I always

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say, A, it's not a competition. You know, it's

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a round planet. There are a lot of places that

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do things a lot better than us. And there's things

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that we do better. So the rising tide lifts all

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ships. If we actually have the humility to say,

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well, Finland, Japan, show us what you're doing

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again. That's how we fix it. But it begins with

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humility, which I'm sure we'll get into in leadership

00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:53.460
too. Absolutely. And look, we already know how

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to do it. We have different private schools that

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have this like classical education model. And

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whether you want to base that on, you know, religious

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education, like it's a big part of my kid's school,

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or whether you want to just base it off of a

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classical model of education, we already know

00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.500
how to do it. And we already know that it works

00:13:11.500 --> 00:13:14.620
in helping the child learn how to learn and enjoy

00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:16.360
learning. And I will say there's downsides to

00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:21.129
it as well. My oldest son is 15. is taking a

00:13:21.129 --> 00:13:24.750
logic class. So he'll be like, Dad, that's a

00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:27.429
fallacy, what you just said. That's an appeal

00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:31.529
to authority. And I'm like, pipe down, son. I

00:13:31.529 --> 00:13:35.409
mean, you're right, but take a rap off. I am

00:13:35.409 --> 00:13:39.009
the authority in this household. Well, going

00:13:39.009 --> 00:13:41.110
back to your childhood again, what were you playing

00:13:41.110 --> 00:13:44.120
and doing as far as sports and exercise? Yeah,

00:13:44.179 --> 00:13:46.399
when I was younger, it was kind of like we played

00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.500
everything. The only sport that I didn't play

00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:50.500
growing up that was kind of like a mainstream

00:13:50.500 --> 00:13:53.600
sport, if you will, was football. And the only

00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.259
reason I didn't is our school where I went, our

00:13:56.259 --> 00:13:58.059
private school, like it just wasn't big enough

00:13:58.059 --> 00:14:02.539
for a football team. So, you know. T -ball, baseball,

00:14:03.100 --> 00:14:06.480
basketball, soccer, all of those things growing

00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.620
up. When I got into high school, I just focused

00:14:09.620 --> 00:14:13.019
more on soccer. And that was really the only

00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:15.200
thing that I did as far as like working out was

00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.299
play soccer. And I hated the practices and I

00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:22.120
really enjoyed the game. But that changed once

00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.600
I. I decided that I wanted to go into the Navy

00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:27.919
and try to go on the SEAL teams. I got a lot

00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.259
more serious about my fitness, but that was,

00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:34.379
you know, 16, 17, 18. Up until then, it was like

00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:36.700
whatever sport I was playing is basically all

00:14:36.700 --> 00:14:39.899
I was doing to stay in shape. Did you have any

00:14:39.899 --> 00:14:41.919
family members in the military prior to your

00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:46.340
interest? So not. Not really that I had a relationship

00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:48.799
with. So my great -grandfather, and actually

00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.320
there's a couple pictures back there that you

00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:52.860
can kind of see right now. My great -grandfather

00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:56.120
was a two -star general in World War II, and

00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.159
his son was an army officer in World War II who

00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.279
was killed at the Battle of the Bulge. But outside

00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:07.240
of that, no, not really. So some more distant

00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:10.850
ties to the military, but nothing recent. So

00:15:10.850 --> 00:15:13.090
what was it that piqued your interest about the

00:15:13.090 --> 00:15:15.490
SEAL team specifically and kind of walked me

00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:18.509
through your journey into enlistment? Yeah, so

00:15:18.509 --> 00:15:22.210
I was an avid reader as a kid. I like to think

00:15:22.210 --> 00:15:25.370
I still am. And we spent a lot of time in the

00:15:25.370 --> 00:15:28.429
Corsicana Public Library getting books and stuff

00:15:28.429 --> 00:15:30.809
and loading up. And I was in there one day and

00:15:30.809 --> 00:15:32.669
there was a military history section and there

00:15:32.669 --> 00:15:35.529
was this book that had this guy in a jungle with

00:15:35.529 --> 00:15:38.429
his face all painted and it was about SEALs in

00:15:38.429 --> 00:15:40.730
Vietnam. And that was the first time I'd ever

00:15:40.730 --> 00:15:44.149
heard anything about a SEAL or the SEAL team.

00:15:44.230 --> 00:15:47.000
So I picked the book up. I read it to cover to

00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:49.039
cover. And then I was just like, this is what

00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:51.919
I want to do. And something about that book really

00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.120
resonated with me and really kind of ignited

00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.419
a passion. And since then, that's all I ever

00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:02.179
wanted to do. So I made it my my life's goal

00:16:02.179 --> 00:16:04.559
from there. Like, that's what I want to do. And

00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:07.960
I graduated high school. I went to Texas A &M

00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.519
University because they had a for the only reason

00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.200
that they had. a unit in the Corps of Cadets,

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:16.980
and I was not in the Corps of Cadets, but they

00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:20.139
had a unit in the Corps of Cadets that was a

00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:23.500
group of guys that wanted to go into SEAL training.

00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.580
And basically this unit was stood up by an advisor

00:16:27.580 --> 00:16:31.000
at A &M many years ago who had been in the SEAL

00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.299
teams and basically set this program up for guys

00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:36.539
that were interested and they could come and

00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:39.980
basically get some knowledge, work out together,

00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.220
prepare together, and hopefully, you know, be

00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.960
a platform for them to, to make it into the Navy

00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.539
and into the SEAL team. So I went there for that

00:16:49.539 --> 00:16:52.539
reason. I'm very glad I did a great group of

00:16:52.539 --> 00:16:54.620
guys. We would wake up every single morning.

00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:57.679
Like my normal day at college was I was up, I

00:16:57.679 --> 00:16:59.740
lived off campus. So I was up at four 30 in the

00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:03.110
morning. I'd slam a cup of coffee. I had to be

00:17:03.110 --> 00:17:05.910
on campus by five o 'clock because we would start

00:17:05.910 --> 00:17:10.809
PT at 515. We would PT from 515 until about seven.

00:17:10.970 --> 00:17:14.130
Then we would grab some chow at the chow hall.

00:17:14.369 --> 00:17:17.210
And then I would usually work out again before

00:17:17.210 --> 00:17:20.049
my classes and then go to class. I had a job

00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:23.039
after school that. Took me until about 5 .30

00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.579
or 6. I'd go home. I would do whatever work I

00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:28.660
needed for class or sometimes maybe not do whatever

00:17:28.660 --> 00:17:31.180
work I needed for class and then fall asleep

00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:34.079
and wake up and repeat. And that was kind of

00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.559
my cycle. But it was all because I was single

00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:40.420
-mindedly focused on wanting to make it, at least

00:17:40.420 --> 00:17:42.400
get a shot into making it in this community.

00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.920
And it was definitely the right move because

00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.470
I thought I was in really good shape. When I

00:17:47.470 --> 00:17:50.009
went to A &M and then I met these guys who were

00:17:50.009 --> 00:17:52.990
actually in good shape and it re -baselined a

00:17:52.990 --> 00:17:55.930
couple of things. One, my understanding of what

00:17:55.930 --> 00:17:59.130
being in condition looked like. And two, my understanding

00:17:59.130 --> 00:18:01.890
of how far I was capable of pushing myself because

00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:04.710
I was so far behind these guys that it took me

00:18:04.710 --> 00:18:07.650
a really long time to catch up with them. But

00:18:07.650 --> 00:18:12.000
from there, I got picked up. for officer candidate

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.619
school right when i graduated and i got a spot

00:18:14.619 --> 00:18:17.799
to go right from officer candidate school to

00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.519
coronado to go through seal training so i got

00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.519
the shot and then once i got out there it was

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.180
basically just up to me as it is everyone who

00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:27.599
gets to go through that training whether they

00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.480
make it or not but all my preparation all my

00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.200
hard work all my choices up till then um paid

00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:36.460
off and i knew at least i was going to get my

00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:41.329
chance to go through uh buds as we call it I've

00:18:41.329 --> 00:18:43.630
had so many people from the teams on here now

00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:46.190
from multiple generations. And, you know, one

00:18:46.190 --> 00:18:48.230
of the kind of misnomers, I think, of the average

00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:50.470
person is a SEAL is this, you know, six foot

00:18:50.470 --> 00:18:52.950
four bodybuilder, you know, and then you hear

00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:55.230
about and you see, I mean, you know, some of

00:18:55.230 --> 00:18:58.089
my friends that are SEALs are not physically

00:18:58.089 --> 00:19:00.589
imposing people by any means. But, you know,

00:19:00.589 --> 00:19:02.769
they always allude to the mindset, you know,

00:19:02.789 --> 00:19:04.430
and obviously coupling that with, as you said,

00:19:04.450 --> 00:19:07.829
the preparation. What was it that drove you and

00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:10.289
allowed you to complete Buds when someone rang

00:19:10.289 --> 00:19:18.089
the bell? Oh, man. It's all I wanted to do. So

00:19:18.089 --> 00:19:21.309
I've been working for, I was 25 when I made it

00:19:21.309 --> 00:19:23.890
into the SEAL teams, when I made it into training.

00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:28.279
So I had been on this journey for for 12 years

00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.279
of wanting to do this. So when I got there, there

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:33.640
was definitely some nervousness and apprehension

00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.759
about how I was going to stack up against my

00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.700
peers, because, you know, in my mind. I'm thinking

00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:41.240
every single person that makes it to buzz is

00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:42.960
like superhuman. They're kind of like that person

00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.019
you just talked about. They're six foot four.

00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:47.799
They're like freak athletes. You know, they were

00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.000
the captain of the football team or the wrestling

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.839
team or Olympian or something like that. So there

00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.720
was definitely some apprehension. But when I

00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.440
got there, the thing that got me through, which

00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:00.299
is the same thing that gets anybody through,

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.000
is just your refusal to quit. And really, if

00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.319
you break that down, it really comes down more

00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:07.359
towards your focus on what's right in front of

00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:11.309
you. every evolution even the worst evolution

00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:13.809
at most is only going to be a couple hours long

00:20:13.809 --> 00:20:17.250
and if you can just focus on I wouldn't even

00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:18.930
say making it through that evolution because

00:20:18.930 --> 00:20:20.930
I think that's weak but performing and doing

00:20:20.930 --> 00:20:24.140
your best during that evolution That evolution

00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:26.440
in a couple hours is over with and you're going

00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:29.400
to move on to something else. I think where guys

00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.619
have a big issue is when they lose the focus

00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:34.420
on what's right in front of them and they look

00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:37.539
at buds and the selection pipeline in totality

00:20:37.539 --> 00:20:41.160
and go, there's no way I can do this for 14 more

00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.720
months. And then it just becomes a spiral. And

00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.359
before they know it, they're standing in front

00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:49.019
of the bell. So I think another big advantage

00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:54.490
that I had is I was an officer. my focus a lot

00:20:54.490 --> 00:20:56.750
of times wasn't necessarily on my own performance.

00:20:56.890 --> 00:20:59.569
It was on my team and my boat crew that I was

00:20:59.569 --> 00:21:02.650
leading. So at times where maybe I would have

00:21:02.650 --> 00:21:06.029
liked to crawl into my shell and think about

00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:09.289
how miserable I was, I had the advantage, I think,

00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:12.069
of also having to worry about how my guys were

00:21:12.069 --> 00:21:14.990
doing and focusing on them. So it took a lot

00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:19.529
of my ability to focus on my own pain away because...

00:21:20.009 --> 00:21:22.230
I had a group of guys that were going through

00:21:22.230 --> 00:21:24.750
it with me. And ultimately, I was responsible

00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:27.630
for our performance. And I think that was a huge

00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:30.710
advantage. It's funny. That reminds me of something

00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:33.890
I've always said when it comes to my choice of

00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:37.609
profession, which is fire versus police. Anytime

00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:40.430
someone got in my face when I was younger, I'd

00:21:40.430 --> 00:21:44.089
shit myself. I would be scared. I was fearless

00:21:44.089 --> 00:21:46.390
when it came to getting between two people if

00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:48.230
they were fighting and, you know, and trying

00:21:48.230 --> 00:21:49.670
to be this, even if I knew I was going to get

00:21:49.670 --> 00:21:51.349
clocked that way too. And I think it's the same

00:21:51.349 --> 00:21:53.130
thing when you take your focus off yourself,

00:21:53.230 --> 00:21:58.069
sometimes actually it empowers you. You know,

00:21:58.069 --> 00:22:02.319
absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I. feel

00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:04.940
for guys that either didn't feel that same way

00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:07.559
or didn't have that ability like it you know

00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.180
if you're an enlisted guy going through buds

00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:11.680
yeah you're worried about your boat team but

00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.599
you're not ultimately responsible for them so

00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:19.440
it it allowed me to be less focused on myself

00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.859
and more focused on the guys around me which

00:22:21.859 --> 00:22:24.140
i thought was very beneficial the other thing

00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:26.160
that i think is worthy of bringing up because

00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:27.759
i don't know that that many people talk about

00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:29.460
it but i think it's important and i think it's

00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.630
a good thing is James, I was terrified to fail.

00:22:33.069 --> 00:22:36.569
Like this is all I ever wanted to do was be here

00:22:36.569 --> 00:22:40.009
in this community. And now I had my chance and

00:22:40.009 --> 00:22:43.930
I did not want to fail. And that fear of failing

00:22:43.930 --> 00:22:46.089
pushed me to try to be the best at everything

00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:49.470
I did in buds. Was I? No, absolutely not. Uh,

00:22:49.630 --> 00:22:51.410
that was a guy named Mike, who was a buddy of

00:22:51.410 --> 00:22:52.809
mine who went through buds, who made it look

00:22:52.809 --> 00:22:54.990
easy. Mike was the best at everything, but I

00:22:54.990 --> 00:22:57.029
was trying to be the best at everything. And

00:22:57.029 --> 00:23:01.170
a big portion of that was, uh, I was afraid to

00:23:01.170 --> 00:23:03.990
fail because I had built up so much time and

00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:06.410
energy and all these different decisions that

00:23:06.410 --> 00:23:08.849
got me here. And the other thing that I was aware

00:23:08.849 --> 00:23:11.410
of, because the instructors told us this, was

00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:15.190
your reputation starts day one of training. And

00:23:15.190 --> 00:23:16.930
you hear it when you're a student. You know,

00:23:16.930 --> 00:23:18.829
they're like, one of these days, you're going

00:23:18.829 --> 00:23:21.750
to be in a platoon with us. And especially as

00:23:21.750 --> 00:23:23.390
an officer, like one of these days, you might

00:23:23.390 --> 00:23:26.690
actually be in charge of us. And in my mind,

00:23:26.710 --> 00:23:28.750
I'm like, well, you know, my reputation starts

00:23:28.750 --> 00:23:30.809
on day one. That means that I'm going to do everything

00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:33.230
I possibly can within my power and my control

00:23:33.230 --> 00:23:36.130
to make sure that that reputation is as good

00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:39.450
as I can possibly make it. And it's funny to

00:23:39.450 --> 00:23:41.309
hear them say things like you might be in charge

00:23:41.309 --> 00:23:45.680
of us one day. But my first platoon? I was an

00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.519
assistant platoon commander. And who was my platoon

00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.000
chief? My favorite instructor from first phase.

00:23:51.339 --> 00:23:55.579
So I'm in a platoon with the chief that I looked

00:23:55.579 --> 00:23:58.460
up to the most in first phase. And it was exactly

00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:02.000
what he said. And, you know, the reason I was

00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.619
in that platoon is because he remembered me and

00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:07.460
he pulled me in his platoon. So whether you're

00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:09.980
going through a selection pipeline, whatever

00:24:09.980 --> 00:24:12.119
training it is, like you're always being measured

00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:16.380
by the people around you. When I reflect back

00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:20.279
at the sometimes miserable experience of growing

00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.299
up on a farm, whether it's just the sheer physical

00:24:22.299 --> 00:24:24.400
work, whether it's being cold, whether it's being

00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.559
in the middle of a rainstorm, lambing, whatever

00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:30.779
it is, I'm sure that served me well as I progressed

00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:33.480
through and wanted to become a firefighter. What

00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:35.500
element do you think of your upbringing on the

00:24:35.500 --> 00:24:37.900
farm contributed to your success in the teams?

00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.319
It's funny for me because if you ask my parents

00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.380
that question, they'd be like, nothing. He was

00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:49.019
lazy as hell growing up on the farm, which there's

00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:52.240
probably a lot of truth to that. I was given

00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.759
a lot of freedom when I was a kid, as I think

00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.180
most people are that grow up in rural life, just

00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:00.279
a ton of freedom. And my parents gave me a lot

00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:02.500
of freedom throughout my life growing up with

00:25:02.500 --> 00:25:04.440
them to kind of just figure things out and make

00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.299
mistakes. So I learned pretty quickly that. screwing

00:25:08.299 --> 00:25:10.500
up wasn't the end of the line and making a mistake

00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:13.660
was not necessarily something to be afraid of

00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:16.119
and I think that helped me out because there

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.920
were people that I went through training with

00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.359
and I later ran one of the phases of buds uh

00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.119
later in my career and I saw this from that perspective

00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.440
too there are people that have never failed at

00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.779
anything that get to buds and guess what's going

00:25:31.779 --> 00:25:34.819
to happen you're going to fail nobody is going

00:25:34.819 --> 00:25:37.680
to make it through buds unscathed. And some people

00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.119
cannot deal with that failure. I was fortunate

00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.019
enough where I was like, I failed at a million

00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:46.079
things before in my life. So that failure was

00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:50.619
more of just more of a small step back and not

00:25:50.619 --> 00:25:53.680
like this giant millstone that hung around my

00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:58.059
neck. When I stopped being lazy was when... I

00:25:58.059 --> 00:26:00.359
decided that I wanted to go into the SEAL teams

00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:02.500
because in my mind, that was a habit that I just

00:26:02.500 --> 00:26:04.839
couldn't keep. And I would be willing to bet

00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:07.119
if you asked my parents, they would back that

00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.400
up and say he did have a tendency to like try

00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.519
to avoid work or do the minimum on the farm.

00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:15.759
And then when he was a teenager, he made this

00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:19.599
switch and he finally had the ability to kind

00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:21.940
of like buckle down and do the things that needed

00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:26.369
to be done. Yeah, unfortunately, my farm upbringing

00:26:26.369 --> 00:26:28.470
sounds like it was very different than your farm

00:26:28.470 --> 00:26:32.589
upbringing. When was it that you went in? What

00:26:32.589 --> 00:26:36.809
year? It was 2008 when I went in. Okay, so rolling

00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:38.809
back a little bit then, what was 9 -11 through

00:26:38.809 --> 00:26:44.349
your eyes? I was a senior in high school. Taking

00:26:44.349 --> 00:26:46.789
college courses at our junior college when 9

00:26:46.789 --> 00:26:50.210
-11 happened. And I woke up the morning of September

00:26:50.210 --> 00:26:53.170
11th and, you know, the news was everywhere.

00:26:53.369 --> 00:26:55.589
The first tower had just been hit right when

00:26:55.589 --> 00:26:58.369
I woke up. So everyone was just trying to think,

00:26:58.450 --> 00:26:59.849
you know, it's kind of like, hey, it's a freak

00:26:59.849 --> 00:27:01.769
incident. And then all of a sudden it happened

00:27:01.769 --> 00:27:04.890
again and again. And then it was, this is definitely

00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:09.109
something. That was planned. And I, like everybody

00:27:09.109 --> 00:27:11.690
else, was definitely caught up in the emotion

00:27:11.690 --> 00:27:15.829
surrounding all of those things. And I knew that

00:27:15.829 --> 00:27:17.609
I'd already made the choice that I wanted to

00:27:17.609 --> 00:27:20.769
go into the Navy. And I initially had this urge

00:27:20.769 --> 00:27:23.349
to just go and enlist right then and right there.

00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:26.910
I think I'm fortunate that I didn't make that

00:27:26.910 --> 00:27:29.619
emotional decision because I had a very. very

00:27:29.619 --> 00:27:31.640
good career. And I don't actually think it could

00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:34.099
have been any better. And all that just came

00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:37.900
down to the timing of when I did finally get

00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:41.380
to go in post -college. So where were you first

00:27:41.380 --> 00:27:42.880
assigned then? Where was your first deployment?

00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:47.460
My first deployment was with Team 7 out in Coronado.

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.559
And it went back and forth. When we first started

00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.730
our workup, it was going to be Iraq. And then

00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:57.289
it was someplace, undisclosed location in the

00:27:57.289 --> 00:27:59.269
Middle East. And then it was back to Iraq. And

00:27:59.269 --> 00:28:03.230
then we went to Afghanistan for almost 11 months,

00:28:03.349 --> 00:28:06.190
which was much longer deployment than normal.

00:28:06.349 --> 00:28:09.509
But the community made this decision that they

00:28:09.509 --> 00:28:12.130
wanted to try to get both coasts kind of back

00:28:12.130 --> 00:28:14.650
in sync with each other as far as our deployment

00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:18.250
cycles. And what that meant was our team, Team

00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:21.289
7, and the... The East Coast team that was our

00:28:21.289 --> 00:28:23.390
counterpart, Team 10, we're going to have to

00:28:23.390 --> 00:28:25.470
do a longer deployment to get everybody back

00:28:25.470 --> 00:28:29.269
on cycle, which, hey, we loved it. 11 months

00:28:29.269 --> 00:28:32.690
in Afghanistan is exactly where we want it to

00:28:32.690 --> 00:28:34.430
be. That's where everybody in the SEAL teams

00:28:34.430 --> 00:28:37.809
wanted to go during that time frame. So the first

00:28:37.809 --> 00:28:40.390
question that I always ask people, and I preface

00:28:40.390 --> 00:28:44.470
this, for everyone else at home. We get a very

00:28:44.470 --> 00:28:47.670
polarized view of war, either stack bodies, let

00:28:47.670 --> 00:28:49.990
God sort them out, or they're all baby killers.

00:28:50.269 --> 00:28:52.250
And in the middle, obviously, the men and women

00:28:52.250 --> 00:28:55.109
that go overseas with our flag on their shoulder

00:28:55.109 --> 00:28:58.250
and go protect our homeland and the people that

00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:01.809
are in that particular country as well. Two -part

00:29:01.809 --> 00:29:04.869
question. The first part, regardless of the politics

00:29:04.869 --> 00:29:08.410
or incidents that sent you, and this can be any

00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:10.430
of the places you were deployed, sent you overseas.

00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:13.160
Was there a moment where you realized that there

00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:15.259
were some horrendous people that did need to

00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:19.099
be taken care of? Oh, yes, absolutely. Like,

00:29:19.099 --> 00:29:23.339
very quickly. Our mission was what we call village

00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:26.420
stability operations. And it was typically, historically,

00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.460
it was more of a special forces, army special

00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:33.589
forces. So when we say... Army Green Berets or

00:29:33.589 --> 00:29:35.569
Special Forces, that's the same thing. The Green

00:29:35.569 --> 00:29:37.609
Beret is like their nickname. That's based off

00:29:37.609 --> 00:29:40.509
of the beret that they get awarded. So that's

00:29:40.509 --> 00:29:44.170
typically an Army Special Forces mission. At

00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:47.150
the time, basically any SOF unit that was going

00:29:47.150 --> 00:29:50.509
over to Afghanistan was expected to conduct that

00:29:50.509 --> 00:29:53.150
type of mission. So what that means is we were

00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:56.670
living in a village. with the villagers inside

00:29:56.670 --> 00:30:00.049
of a certain area, province, region of Afghanistan.

00:30:00.490 --> 00:30:03.789
And our job was to provide security to those

00:30:03.789 --> 00:30:06.150
villagers who'd been suffering under the control

00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:08.869
of the Taliban and these different insurgent

00:30:08.869 --> 00:30:12.950
forces and build security up for them, help them

00:30:12.950 --> 00:30:15.329
build their own security apparatus, like a local

00:30:15.329 --> 00:30:18.089
police force, first responder force. And then

00:30:18.089 --> 00:30:20.470
the theory behind that was, the strategy behind

00:30:20.470 --> 00:30:24.569
that was, you take all of these provincial village

00:30:24.569 --> 00:30:27.630
police forces that are getting formed up, put

00:30:27.630 --> 00:30:30.569
them underneath a local governance. And now you've

00:30:30.569 --> 00:30:34.049
got like a police force that each province can

00:30:34.049 --> 00:30:36.430
own and run to provide their own security. So

00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:39.710
we were living in a village with these villagers

00:30:39.710 --> 00:30:45.210
for 11 months. And the things that we saw when

00:30:45.210 --> 00:30:47.009
we first got there, because we did a very good

00:30:47.009 --> 00:30:49.490
job of clearing the bad guys out pretty quickly.

00:30:49.730 --> 00:30:52.900
The things that we first saw. When you got over

00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:54.980
there, it was just complete and total oppression

00:30:54.980 --> 00:30:59.839
of the civilian population. Everything was handled

00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.759
basically through the Taliban courts and the

00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:05.900
Taliban law system, which surprisingly enough,

00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.700
if you listen to Villagers, has some positives,

00:31:08.779 --> 00:31:11.519
but mostly negatives. The positives was it was

00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.019
better than like no system of law. The negatives

00:31:14.019 --> 00:31:17.230
were they were. very antiquated punishment, shall

00:31:17.230 --> 00:31:19.529
we say. But it was basically, you're going to

00:31:19.529 --> 00:31:22.029
do whatever we tell you to do. And if you don't

00:31:22.029 --> 00:31:24.529
do that, then, you know, we're going to torture,

00:31:24.630 --> 00:31:27.190
kill you and your families. So they were basically

00:31:27.190 --> 00:31:30.549
just living under this constant state of fear

00:31:30.549 --> 00:31:34.390
when we got there. And then, you know, Afghanistan

00:31:34.390 --> 00:31:37.069
was one thing, and that was bad enough. My last

00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:41.079
tour, I was a troop commander at Team 5. And

00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:43.640
I took five, my whole team, or not my whole team,

00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:47.259
my team headquarters and my troop of five platoons

00:31:47.259 --> 00:31:52.059
went over to Iraq in 2016 and led the battle

00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:56.180
of Mosul to push ISIS out of Mosul and eventually

00:31:56.180 --> 00:31:59.940
push them out of Iraq. And I will say this without

00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:02.420
getting into too much detail. There has never

00:32:02.420 --> 00:32:05.519
been a more brutal or barbaric regime on the

00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:09.980
face of the earth than ISIS. And regardless of...

00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:13.200
what allowed them to come into power in the first

00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:17.700
place, they don't belong on the same earth as

00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:20.460
everybody else does. And I was very proud of

00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:22.980
my troop and my team and all the Americans that

00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:25.740
were over there, the part that they played in

00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:28.880
getting rid of those individuals and giving Iraq

00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.599
back to the people. This is always an interesting

00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:34.440
perspective when someone's fought in multiple

00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:39.960
countries. Do you think as a common denominator,

00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:43.079
bearing in mind that we all are born as these

00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.359
little bundles of joy and then with these giggling

00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:49.059
toddlers and then one day beheading people, what

00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:51.380
if you're able to kind of identify as a common

00:32:51.380 --> 00:32:54.559
denominator that seems to spawn such evil and

00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.920
hatred in what were once innocent young children?

00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:08.710
Man, this is sketchy. At the root of it, without

00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:12.390
going into anything else, it's ideology. And

00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:16.430
then the ability of certain leaders underneath

00:33:16.430 --> 00:33:21.470
that ideology to present a corrupted form of

00:33:21.470 --> 00:33:24.170
that ideology, or let's say the worst form of

00:33:24.170 --> 00:33:30.369
that ideology, and then to harness those feelings

00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:33.349
underneath that ideology and point them in a

00:33:33.349 --> 00:33:35.490
certain direction, which is towards the West.

00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:39.190
That's the common denominator of every area that

00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:43.890
I saw, whether it was Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia,

00:33:44.009 --> 00:33:47.529
any of those places. What about poverty? Because

00:33:47.529 --> 00:33:49.829
I hear this a lot in Afghanistan, for example,

00:33:49.970 --> 00:33:51.390
you know, you've got the people and they're paid

00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:53.769
to join the Taliban because they just simply

00:33:53.769 --> 00:33:55.650
want to feed their family, which is obviously

00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:59.619
then kind of amplifying the effect. I think there's

00:33:59.619 --> 00:34:02.619
definitely a part of that, and I would say that

00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:05.140
probably plays a large piece. And if you would

00:34:05.140 --> 00:34:09.340
wind the clock back 15 years, I think most people

00:34:09.340 --> 00:34:11.800
would say that's the biggest part. ISIS threw

00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.099
a big wrench in that because there was very wealthy,

00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:16.860
very well -to -do people coming from all over

00:34:16.860 --> 00:34:19.530
the planet to include Europe. to include America,

00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:22.030
to go get under the banner of this ideology.

00:34:22.409 --> 00:34:25.429
So if you would have asked me in 2009, I would

00:34:25.429 --> 00:34:27.630
have said poverty is probably the main driver.

00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:30.170
I don't say that anymore based off of what I

00:34:30.170 --> 00:34:33.639
saw. I mentioned it was a two -part question.

00:34:33.699 --> 00:34:35.840
This is the other side that we just don't hear

00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.719
in the media here, but I've heard so many beautiful

00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:41.639
examples. Again, you can pick the battlefield.

00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.619
What were the moments of kindness and compassion

00:34:44.619 --> 00:34:46.920
that you remember, whether it was obviously our

00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:48.880
own people or the people that you were protecting?

00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.420
Yeah, look, the kids in every single village

00:34:52.420 --> 00:34:58.449
that you go to, they're kids. Trying to live

00:34:58.449 --> 00:35:00.929
a normal life. Their parents want them to live

00:35:00.929 --> 00:35:05.210
a normal life. We were able to build a couple

00:35:05.210 --> 00:35:07.550
of schools in our province where we were in Afghanistan,

00:35:07.889 --> 00:35:10.869
the first schools that were there. And to me,

00:35:10.889 --> 00:35:13.489
that was like one of my favorite memories ever

00:35:13.489 --> 00:35:16.949
was getting the honor through the village had

00:35:16.949 --> 00:35:19.610
this big ceremony for us. And I got to lay the

00:35:19.610 --> 00:35:22.829
cornerstone of the first school that we built

00:35:22.829 --> 00:35:25.369
there. And then after the school was built, you

00:35:25.369 --> 00:35:28.170
know, from our fob, we could see kids going to

00:35:28.170 --> 00:35:31.869
school in the morning, doing their walk to school,

00:35:31.969 --> 00:35:33.889
doing their walk back to school. And I would

00:35:33.889 --> 00:35:36.610
say this, outside of the individuals that fell

00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:42.010
underneath that ideology, they're human beings.

00:35:42.130 --> 00:35:43.710
They want the same thing that we want, whether

00:35:43.710 --> 00:35:45.610
it was in Afghanistan, whether it was in Iraq,

00:35:45.909 --> 00:35:48.369
whether it was in Somalia or some of these other

00:35:48.369 --> 00:35:51.550
areas. They want to be left alone. They want

00:35:51.550 --> 00:35:54.550
to be able to live their life in their village

00:35:54.550 --> 00:35:56.349
with their families. They want to be able to

00:35:56.349 --> 00:35:59.190
raise their kids the way that any parent would

00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:01.469
want to raise their kids. And there's always

00:36:01.469 --> 00:36:03.869
that common denominator that runs through things.

00:36:04.469 --> 00:36:06.710
Unfortunately, in some of these different areas

00:36:06.710 --> 00:36:09.210
across the globe, they don't have what we have

00:36:09.210 --> 00:36:11.670
in the West, especially in America, which is

00:36:11.670 --> 00:36:14.829
the freedom to do those things. So what about

00:36:14.829 --> 00:36:17.769
transition? What made you decide that you wanted

00:36:17.769 --> 00:36:20.650
to transition out? And then, as we've heard many,

00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:23.130
many times, that can be a struggle for many people

00:36:23.130 --> 00:36:25.469
in uniform between the tribe and the purpose

00:36:25.469 --> 00:36:28.090
and the identity. What was your initial transition

00:36:28.090 --> 00:36:33.210
experience? Yeah, my plan was to, you know, be

00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:35.690
in that uniform till I was like 95 years old

00:36:35.690 --> 00:36:39.860
initially. My transition was based off of a couple

00:36:39.860 --> 00:36:42.840
of different factors. The biggest factor, the

00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:47.880
main driving factor, was my family. So my wife

00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:50.619
and I had five kids by the end of my last tour.

00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:55.579
And when your kids are young, it's still a big

00:36:55.579 --> 00:36:58.860
toll on them. But it's very different when you're

00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:01.980
deploying and you've got... a 10 -year -old,

00:37:02.019 --> 00:37:04.219
11 -year -old, a nine -year -old, a seven -year

00:37:04.219 --> 00:37:06.400
-old than it is when you have a newborn, just

00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.280
because the impact on them of, you know, their

00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:11.699
father not being there is huge. And the impact

00:37:11.699 --> 00:37:14.440
on me of not getting to be there and watch my

00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.460
kids go through these different stages of life

00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:21.440
was starting to really weigh on me. And the real

00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.619
genesis of what got me thinking about getting

00:37:24.619 --> 00:37:27.460
out, and this first incident that I'm going to

00:37:27.460 --> 00:37:30.579
tell you about happened about two years before

00:37:30.579 --> 00:37:33.579
I actually made the decision, was my commanding

00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:35.699
officer at Team 5, that tour that we went to

00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:38.159
Iraq, was just an awesome leader, a guy named

00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:42.039
Beef. Jason was his master chief. So Jason and

00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:46.619
Beef ran the team. Beef was an awesome CO. He

00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:49.800
sat me down during our detailing talk of where

00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.360
do you want to go next? And he's like, hey, you're

00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:56.340
at eight years right now. Let's map out the next.

00:37:57.059 --> 00:38:00.380
20, the next 12 years, let's get you to 20. I

00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:03.019
want you to write down every job that you want,

00:38:03.099 --> 00:38:05.579
like your dream job, your number one job for

00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.460
the next 20 years. So I was like, Oh, you know,

00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.280
I want to go to, to the training command and

00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.420
run the training command. And then I want to

00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:15.800
go and I want to be, you know, a commanding officer

00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:17.980
of team five. And then I want to do this. And

00:38:17.980 --> 00:38:21.139
he goes, Okay, awesome. Great. Now, right underneath

00:38:21.139 --> 00:38:24.300
each of those tours, right how old your kids

00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:27.659
are going to be. And I was like, oh, that's interesting.

00:38:27.980 --> 00:38:31.579
No one's ever done that with me before. So I

00:38:31.579 --> 00:38:35.619
started writing down and it was like almost a

00:38:35.619 --> 00:38:38.280
knife in the heart because what I realized was

00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:43.920
when I hit 20, my oldest son would be 18 years

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:48.099
old. So if I chose to retire at 20, What that

00:38:48.099 --> 00:38:50.800
means is now I have time to spend with my family

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.659
and my oldest son is going to be gone within

00:38:53.659 --> 00:38:56.380
a matter of months. And then a year and change

00:38:56.380 --> 00:38:59.559
behind him, my second son is going to be out

00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:02.059
of the house. And then I started to look at these

00:39:02.059 --> 00:39:05.460
tours on the paper and go, how much does that

00:39:05.460 --> 00:39:08.440
mean to me versus how much does my family mean

00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:11.340
to me? The other thing that I was very fortunate

00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:14.019
with that made this decision very easy for me

00:39:14.019 --> 00:39:17.429
was I had done. everything that I ever could

00:39:17.429 --> 00:39:20.809
have imagined in the SEAL teams. I got to do

00:39:20.809 --> 00:39:23.150
an awesome assistant platoon commander tour,

00:39:23.269 --> 00:39:25.590
right into my platoon commander tour. I got to

00:39:25.590 --> 00:39:28.150
go and run a phase of our selection pipeline.

00:39:28.630 --> 00:39:30.750
I came back and had the best troop commander

00:39:30.750 --> 00:39:34.369
tour I could possibly have at Team 5. I got to

00:39:34.369 --> 00:39:37.190
stay at Team 5 for another tour. And then I was

00:39:37.190 --> 00:39:39.650
given the privilege and opportunity to run our

00:39:39.650 --> 00:39:43.679
training command. I had ticked every box that

00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.980
I ever possibly could have wanted to tick. And

00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:49.559
I had no regrets whatsoever about my career.

00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:53.960
So I made the decision to get out after the running

00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:56.599
the training command. And it was the best decision

00:39:56.599 --> 00:40:01.260
I've ever made. And when we talk about the transition

00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:04.440
for me, and I know there's a lot of people that

00:40:04.440 --> 00:40:07.099
struggle with this. For me, it was not difficult.

00:40:07.579 --> 00:40:09.780
It was very difficult for me to make the decision

00:40:09.780 --> 00:40:14.400
to step away because, you know, a lot of my desire

00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:18.000
was still to serve in uniform and be around the

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.260
caliber of individuals that I was fortunate enough

00:40:20.260 --> 00:40:24.440
to be around. But I had things on the outside.

00:40:24.820 --> 00:40:28.869
So a lot of guys, when they get out. They haven't

00:40:28.869 --> 00:40:31.550
cultivated anything else outside of the teams.

00:40:31.690 --> 00:40:35.309
They've cultivated no relationships. They haven't

00:40:35.309 --> 00:40:38.429
cultivated a family. And if they have a family,

00:40:38.469 --> 00:40:40.630
some guys haven't really been pouring the time

00:40:40.630 --> 00:40:43.090
and investment that they need into their wives

00:40:43.090 --> 00:40:45.690
and their kids. So they get out and like, there's

00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:49.550
not really this. stable life at home. And now

00:40:49.550 --> 00:40:51.710
it creates all of these different issues or they

00:40:51.710 --> 00:40:53.849
get out and they don't have a family to lean

00:40:53.849 --> 00:40:55.750
on. They don't have any other friends to lean

00:40:55.750 --> 00:40:58.710
on. And now they're feeling isolated and alone.

00:40:58.949 --> 00:41:02.690
For me, when I was a very young guy, my identity

00:41:02.690 --> 00:41:06.389
was as a SEAL in the SEAL teams. When I got married,

00:41:06.510 --> 00:41:09.550
my identity primarily became a husband. When

00:41:09.550 --> 00:41:13.929
I started having kids, my identity became a father.

00:41:14.409 --> 00:41:17.329
I only ever had two goals for my life. I wanted

00:41:17.329 --> 00:41:20.550
to be a good SEAL and I wanted to be a good father.

00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:23.989
So at some point in time, those two things started

00:41:23.989 --> 00:41:27.389
to intersect and affect my ability to do both.

00:41:27.590 --> 00:41:30.519
So I made the decision to... to do the number

00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.500
one priority, which is hopefully be a good dad.

00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:37.019
And because I had my family here and I had been

00:41:37.019 --> 00:41:40.079
investing in them and cultivating them with as

00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.840
much time as I possibly could, my transition

00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.440
was pretty easy. The other thing I had was I

00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.340
was going to work for a bunch of team guys. I

00:41:49.340 --> 00:41:51.400
didn't have to try to make this shift into like

00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:54.539
a corporate world that I was really unfamiliar

00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:57.400
with. And maybe the culture was different. I

00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:01.039
was also very fortunate to go and work with individuals

00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.219
that were very like -minded in an industry that

00:42:04.219 --> 00:42:06.659
I really believed in. What was that industry?

00:42:07.700 --> 00:42:11.980
So the first industry was a construction technology

00:42:11.980 --> 00:42:15.300
startup that was founded by two of my former

00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:18.179
teammates from the SEAL teams to include my best

00:42:18.179 --> 00:42:20.440
friend, a guy named Garrett, who's like one of

00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:24.130
the greatest leaders I've ever met. the best

00:42:24.130 --> 00:42:26.309
person you've ever met james he's he's someone

00:42:26.309 --> 00:42:29.110
that you want to hate because he's just better

00:42:29.110 --> 00:42:32.050
at you that at everything but you can't because

00:42:32.050 --> 00:42:34.969
he's also better at you better than you at just

00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:36.949
being like the nicest most humble person you've

00:42:36.949 --> 00:42:41.079
ever met so he started this company about the

00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.059
same time as I was getting out. And he asked

00:42:43.059 --> 00:42:46.500
me if I would help him start it up. And I came

00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:49.139
on board with him. And I was asked to be the

00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:51.960
COO of that. And we helped grow and scale that

00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.539
company for a couple of years. And then I had

00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:57.539
the opportunity to go and join the awesome team

00:42:57.539 --> 00:43:00.659
at Echelon Front, the leadership consultancy

00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:04.619
and training company that was founded by Jocko

00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:07.980
Willink and Leif Babin. So I went from working

00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:11.210
with awesome guys in the SEAL teams, to working

00:43:11.210 --> 00:43:13.949
with an awesome team and company at the construction

00:43:13.949 --> 00:43:16.570
technology company, to now working with an awesome

00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:19.090
team at Echelon Front, where I get to go around

00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:23.010
and meet amazing Americans. And not just Americans,

00:43:23.110 --> 00:43:25.949
it's a global company now. Amazing individuals

00:43:25.949 --> 00:43:28.690
who are just trying to be the best, most effective

00:43:28.690 --> 00:43:31.869
leaders that they can possibly be. How many years

00:43:31.869 --> 00:43:35.690
did you have total in the military? 13 and a

00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:38.530
half. And that's combined active duty. And then

00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:40.750
I stayed in the reserves for about a year. So

00:43:40.750 --> 00:43:44.090
I have 14 years in the fire service. And it was

00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:47.469
just a crazy twist of fate where the universe

00:43:47.469 --> 00:43:49.989
spit me out and said, you know, you need to go

00:43:49.989 --> 00:43:52.170
outside the walls now and try and help the profession

00:43:52.170 --> 00:43:54.610
as a whole. I didn't ever think it was going

00:43:54.610 --> 00:43:58.510
to be that short. It's interesting because if

00:43:58.510 --> 00:44:00.889
you do 14 years, 13 years in the military, people

00:44:00.889 --> 00:44:02.289
are like, wow, that's amazing. Thank you for

00:44:02.289 --> 00:44:04.269
your service. But if you do it in the first responder

00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:05.590
professions, they're like, well, why did you

00:44:05.590 --> 00:44:09.489
quit? Totally different lens. But this is what

00:44:09.489 --> 00:44:12.010
I've tried to storytell. And again, I love the

00:44:12.010 --> 00:44:14.210
job. I didn't leave because I didn't want to

00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:15.710
run the cause anymore. It was the opposite. I

00:44:15.710 --> 00:44:19.590
was just tired of burying my friends. But I tell

00:44:19.590 --> 00:44:22.090
people, and I love that. that that mentorship

00:44:22.090 --> 00:44:24.329
that you had with lay out what you want and lay

00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:26.489
out how old your kids are because it is the same

00:44:26.489 --> 00:44:28.110
in the first responder profession especially

00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.090
as i know we're going to get to when we're talking

00:44:31.090 --> 00:44:34.110
about work weeks and extra shifts away there

00:44:34.110 --> 00:44:37.010
is no greater you know more important currency

00:44:37.010 --> 00:44:38.789
than time with your children or time with your

00:44:38.789 --> 00:44:41.269
family i believe that hand on my heart if we

00:44:41.269 --> 00:44:43.070
just you know if you're just a firefighter if

00:44:43.070 --> 00:44:45.050
you're just a seal and there's nothing else in

00:44:45.050 --> 00:44:47.179
your life then what is it really for Ultimately,

00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:50.360
I'm protecting my community, which would be hoping

00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:52.599
that someone else is protecting where I live

00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:55.860
and my children and my family. But understanding

00:44:55.860 --> 00:44:58.780
that there is a balance. And when there's that

00:44:58.780 --> 00:45:01.239
shift where your identity becomes more important

00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:03.780
than your family, or you have this kind of bizarre

00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:07.980
mythology, you tell yourself that you being worked

00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:10.019
into the ground as a firefighter is an honorable

00:45:10.019 --> 00:45:12.739
thing. When it's not, being a firefighter is

00:45:12.739 --> 00:45:14.460
an honorable thing. The work week, the way that

00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:16.019
you're worked and kept from your family is another

00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:19.280
entire discussion. But I really love that lens

00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.940
and that story that you told, which is always

00:45:21.940 --> 00:45:23.900
be, you know, putting your finger on the pulse

00:45:23.900 --> 00:45:26.360
of what matters the most. And if there's a shift,

00:45:26.500 --> 00:45:28.860
that's when maybe you need to have a conversation

00:45:28.860 --> 00:45:31.940
because the only reason that we work 25 years

00:45:31.940 --> 00:45:33.960
is because a pension company told you that's

00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:35.460
when you would have accrued amount of money.

00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:37.719
That's it. It's nothing to do with the burning

00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:41.860
desire in your heart. Yeah, absolutely. And,

00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:46.219
you know, I was fortunate. My first platoon chief,

00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:47.960
that guy that I told you about that put me through

00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:53.440
selection, he had six kids. So my first. glance

00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.699
at what's possible in the SEAL teams was this

00:45:56.699 --> 00:45:59.280
chief who, by the way, was the Pacific Fleet

00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:02.239
Sailor of the Year. So that's not a SEAL team

00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:04.860
honor. That's the entire Pacific Fleet, which

00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:07.920
is like 100 ,000 plus sailors. He was the Pacific

00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.820
Fleet Sailor of the Year. So not only was he

00:46:10.820 --> 00:46:13.820
an outstanding father and husband, but he was

00:46:13.820 --> 00:46:17.199
the best sailor in the Pacific Fleet. So my example

00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.159
was, oh, it's possible to do both of those things,

00:46:21.219 --> 00:46:26.070
but they're... is definitely a sacrifice. Like

00:46:26.070 --> 00:46:29.809
your family is making a huge sacrifice because

00:46:29.809 --> 00:46:32.190
it's not like he could drop everything and just

00:46:32.190 --> 00:46:34.650
go home if there was an issue at any given time.

00:46:34.750 --> 00:46:37.030
So your family is getting pulled into that same

00:46:37.030 --> 00:46:39.489
thing. But, you know, that mentorship that he

00:46:39.489 --> 00:46:41.949
provided me, that lens of like your family is

00:46:41.949 --> 00:46:44.719
the most important thing. And the mentorship

00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.260
that Beef provided me of like, hey, let's look

00:46:47.260 --> 00:46:49.719
at not just your career, but like, what are you

00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:52.280
putting your family through during this is huge.

00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:54.500
And it's not that they're not intertwined either.

00:46:54.860 --> 00:46:58.760
If your family life is a mess, there's a 0 %

00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:01.380
chance that that does not bleed over into your

00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:04.880
work life in some way, shape or form. And it's

00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:08.809
idiotic to think. that you can completely compartmentalize

00:47:08.809 --> 00:47:11.809
this giant dumpster fire that you have over here.

00:47:11.909 --> 00:47:14.190
And it's not going to affect this profession

00:47:14.190 --> 00:47:16.929
that you say that you care about so much. And

00:47:16.929 --> 00:47:20.369
whether you're in the military, whether you're

00:47:20.369 --> 00:47:24.389
in the firefighter first responder service, my

00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:28.989
personal philosophy is that if you are a man,

00:47:29.309 --> 00:47:31.590
your ultimate responsibility, your ultimate role

00:47:31.590 --> 00:47:34.710
is to be a father. And that can look different

00:47:34.710 --> 00:47:39.340
ways. I'm blessed to be a father with, with five

00:47:39.340 --> 00:47:42.539
kids. You know, some guys through no fault of

00:47:42.539 --> 00:47:44.360
their own, they're never going to have a family,

00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.280
but there's ways they can fill that role of fatherhood.

00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:49.840
They can be a mentor to someone underneath them.

00:47:49.900 --> 00:47:51.900
Like my chief was, and like my commanding officer

00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:55.739
was, they can be a coach. They can be an advocate

00:47:55.739 --> 00:47:59.440
like you are for an entire community. Whether

00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:01.559
you have a family or not, there's a role that

00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.639
you need to fill outside of this very small thing

00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:07.500
that you're doing that is very important. But

00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:09.539
in the grand scheme of things, it's definitely

00:48:09.539 --> 00:48:13.019
not the most important. I couldn't agree more.

00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:16.539
Speaking of advocating, I know you were on Mike

00:48:16.539 --> 00:48:18.900
Ritland's podcast. He was on here years and years

00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:22.340
ago. I actually need to get him back on. I saw

00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:24.639
in one of the clips that you were talking about

00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.059
the withdrawal and trying to get some of the

00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:29.699
people that you work with out. I just had an

00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:32.619
army veteran, Dewey Yop, on talking about this

00:48:32.619 --> 00:48:37.119
very thing. You and the men and women that you

00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:39.500
serve alongside are in this country for basically

00:48:39.500 --> 00:48:42.619
20 years. There's this incredible selflessness

00:48:42.619 --> 00:48:44.820
and heroism of the indigenous people as well.

00:48:45.500 --> 00:48:48.360
Talk to me about the withdrawal itself and then

00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:50.920
the human impact of some of the people that you

00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:59.800
cared about. Yeah. It's the most disappointed

00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:02.480
I've ever been in our country when that happened.

00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:07.119
Because anyone who had spent time on the ground

00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:10.269
in Afghanistan. could tell you exactly what was

00:49:10.269 --> 00:49:13.090
going to happen if we pulled out, when we pulled

00:49:13.090 --> 00:49:16.110
out, in the fashion that we pulled out. Now,

00:49:16.130 --> 00:49:18.489
if someone wanted to get into a debate about

00:49:18.489 --> 00:49:20.230
whether we should still have been there or not,

00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:23.670
maybe we could talk about different ways to scale

00:49:23.670 --> 00:49:26.050
down that would have looked differently. But

00:49:26.050 --> 00:49:28.829
anyone that spent time over there could have

00:49:28.829 --> 00:49:32.070
looked at that plan and just said, this is ridiculous.

00:49:32.170 --> 00:49:35.110
And we can tell you exactly. What's going to

00:49:35.110 --> 00:49:38.210
happen if you do this? And the reason it was

00:49:38.210 --> 00:49:42.989
so disheartening and disappointing to all of

00:49:42.989 --> 00:49:45.710
the different veterans that had served over there

00:49:45.710 --> 00:49:50.750
is we saw the cost of 20 years of sustained conflict

00:49:50.750 --> 00:49:54.269
over there, not just in lost brothers and sisters,

00:49:54.469 --> 00:49:57.130
but the cost to the population as well. Those

00:49:57.130 --> 00:50:00.469
people were put through hell for 20 years, not

00:50:00.469 --> 00:50:05.610
just the oppression of the Taliban. But, you

00:50:05.610 --> 00:50:08.750
know, war takes a toll on the innocent civilian

00:50:08.750 --> 00:50:11.389
side as well. And their whole society was thrown

00:50:11.389 --> 00:50:15.329
into this upheaval. And you had really brave

00:50:15.329 --> 00:50:18.989
Afghanis that in a lot of ways is like the most

00:50:18.989 --> 00:50:21.250
brave thing I've ever seen, which is they put

00:50:21.250 --> 00:50:23.960
their neck on the line to help out. American

00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:27.639
forces. And, you know, we had in our camp, we

00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:31.780
had multiple Afghanis who teamed up with us to

00:50:31.780 --> 00:50:34.760
help us push the Taliban out. And we had multiple

00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:38.059
Afghanis acting as interpreters for us going

00:50:38.059 --> 00:50:41.159
on some patrols with us to point different things

00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:46.159
out. And we knew that if we pulled out. And the

00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:48.659
country was turned back over to the Taliban,

00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:51.420
exactly what was going to happen to those individuals,

00:50:51.699 --> 00:50:53.800
which is exactly what happened to those individuals,

00:50:53.980 --> 00:50:56.559
which is why you see people desperate enough

00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:00.599
to cling to the wheel of a C -17 as it's taking

00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.760
off into the stratosphere, knowing that they're

00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:05.460
going to die, but knowing that that death is

00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:09.360
probably a lot better way to go than what's going

00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:11.760
to happen if the Taliban gets a hold of them.

00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:15.329
So it wasn't just... this sense of disgust of

00:51:15.329 --> 00:51:19.550
like a waste of the time that we spent over there

00:51:19.550 --> 00:51:23.050
and the lives that we spent over there, American

00:51:23.050 --> 00:51:25.989
lives we spent over there, coalition lives we

00:51:25.989 --> 00:51:28.050
spent over there, Afghani lives we spent over

00:51:28.050 --> 00:51:30.510
there. For me, it was also a sense of disgust

00:51:30.510 --> 00:51:33.190
of what was going to happen to the population

00:51:33.190 --> 00:51:35.909
of Afghanistan, which is exactly what happened.

00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.559
Question to so many people who have been on here,

00:51:42.619 --> 00:51:44.880
because this is the voice that we need to hear.

00:51:46.099 --> 00:51:49.500
We know now, in hindsight, for example, that

00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:51.599
some of the things that people were told about

00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:55.579
Iraq now weren't true. And it doesn't downplay

00:51:55.579 --> 00:51:58.739
the impact that our allied soldiers had whilst

00:51:58.739 --> 00:52:00.639
they were there. And I've heard many, many stories.

00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:03.840
But there's a responsibility of when to go to

00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.320
war and when not to go to war. Understanding,

00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:08.739
though, that there are companies that make billions

00:52:08.739 --> 00:52:11.260
and billions, if not trillions of dollars when

00:52:11.260 --> 00:52:15.719
we are at war, with your kind of 2026 lens now,

00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:20.460
and I think the comparison is when you make billions

00:52:20.460 --> 00:52:23.559
and trillions of dollars on sick Americans, where's

00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:26.119
the push to make Americans healthy? It's the

00:52:26.119 --> 00:52:28.039
same, and it worries me with the war. Where are

00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:30.079
the checks and balances to make sure that we

00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:34.320
only send our young men and women overseas? when

00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:39.800
all other diplomacy has failed? The honest answer

00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:42.840
is, I don't know. I think that we're much more

00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:46.420
aware and cognizant of that now than we were

00:52:46.420 --> 00:52:49.179
20 years ago when the decision was made. And

00:52:49.179 --> 00:52:52.519
I think that's probably true if you look historically

00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:56.159
back to any conflict. I'd be willing to bet that

00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:58.820
right after the conflict is over, there is...

00:53:00.429 --> 00:53:02.429
This desire to make sure that we don't allow

00:53:02.429 --> 00:53:05.269
it to happen again, that we don't send American

00:53:05.269 --> 00:53:10.030
forces and coalition forces into a conflict that

00:53:10.030 --> 00:53:12.210
we shouldn't be involved in or into a conflict

00:53:12.210 --> 00:53:16.050
needlessly. And I would probably say, again,

00:53:16.150 --> 00:53:17.949
if you look historically, that we failed to do

00:53:17.949 --> 00:53:22.050
that again and again. And I unfortunately, well,

00:53:22.110 --> 00:53:24.650
not unfortunately, I don't think that leaders

00:53:24.650 --> 00:53:26.670
should be judged by their intent. I think they

00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:29.389
should be judged by the outcome of their decisions.

00:53:29.650 --> 00:53:32.489
So if you look at the leaders that were in place

00:53:32.489 --> 00:53:36.449
when the decision to go in Iraq was made, I don't

00:53:36.449 --> 00:53:39.349
know if their intent in going in there was pure

00:53:39.349 --> 00:53:44.789
or not. And unfortunately, it doesn't matter

00:53:44.789 --> 00:53:47.010
if it was or not, because the outcome is what

00:53:47.010 --> 00:53:52.159
the outcome is. So I would hope. that we have

00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:54.159
these checks and balances in place. But what

00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:58.059
I've learned from observing leaders at every

00:53:58.059 --> 00:54:02.460
single level of the military, corporations, our

00:54:02.460 --> 00:54:06.119
government, is that it takes good leaders or

00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:09.380
a good leader to be that check and balance. If

00:54:09.380 --> 00:54:11.820
that person is not willing to do that, or several

00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:14.239
people are not willing to do that, bad decisions

00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:16.500
will be made. Case in point, the withdrawal from

00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:19.000
Afghanistan. You can't tell me that there's not

00:54:19.769 --> 00:54:23.349
Every single general in that room that signed

00:54:23.349 --> 00:54:25.789
off on that plan, whether they agreed with it

00:54:25.789 --> 00:54:28.170
or not, but that signed off on it, didn't know

00:54:28.170 --> 00:54:30.730
exactly what was going to happen. And every single

00:54:30.730 --> 00:54:33.510
one of them should have had to resign in shame

00:54:33.510 --> 00:54:35.750
for putting their name on that. Because what

00:54:35.750 --> 00:54:38.389
a real leader would have done would have been

00:54:38.389 --> 00:54:40.690
to take the four stars off of their shoulder

00:54:40.690 --> 00:54:43.070
and say, I'm not supporting this. Here's my resignation

00:54:43.070 --> 00:54:47.159
if this is your plan. But nobody did it. I think

00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:49.320
that same thing is probably how we get involved

00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:52.420
in conflicts that we should not be involved in.

00:54:54.019 --> 00:54:57.139
I agree completely. I see even in my profession

00:54:57.139 --> 00:55:00.579
when there are solutions to a lot of these problems

00:55:00.579 --> 00:55:03.320
now, but there's an absence of moral courage.

00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:05.659
And what kills me with the example that you've

00:55:05.659 --> 00:55:07.400
just given, because none of those generals are

00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:10.960
in Kabul when this is happening, and the same

00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.019
with my profession. We have people refusing to

00:55:14.019 --> 00:55:17.079
make the decisions. um that will drive change

00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:19.519
that will reverse the mental health crisis the

00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.400
physical health crisis the recruitment crisis

00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:25.280
the retention crisis etc etc who work 40 hours

00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.360
a week they go home at five every night they

00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:29.739
go back to their family they shrug the shoulders

00:55:29.739 --> 00:55:32.460
and they go well it's not my problem and i don't

00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:35.699
understand how you develop such a disconnect

00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:38.539
and honestly to be completely blunt the only

00:55:38.539 --> 00:55:41.820
thing that i can really come up with is we talk

00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:44.059
about mental health and the fire service, and

00:55:44.059 --> 00:55:45.900
I would say that that was a mental health issue.

00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:48.820
If you as a leader are burying your own people

00:55:48.820 --> 00:55:51.039
or stopping them from going home with their family

00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:53.340
because of your poor management decisions and

00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:56.460
you are sleeping well at night, you really need

00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:57.960
to look in the mirror and see if you're actually

00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:02.059
fit for duty. Yeah, absolutely. I just had this

00:56:02.059 --> 00:56:05.760
conversation with a friend of mine who's at Development

00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.159
Group right now. And he was talking about the

00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:13.059
fact that he is the CEO of all of Development

00:56:13.059 --> 00:56:16.980
Group. He saw him in the hallway and just had

00:56:16.980 --> 00:56:19.039
to pull him aside and just tell him, hey, sir,

00:56:19.219 --> 00:56:21.780
you know, I really appreciate what you're doing.

00:56:21.820 --> 00:56:24.300
I think that you're you're killing it in your

00:56:24.300 --> 00:56:25.840
role. And he's like, the reason I told him that

00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:30.340
is because the guy. has not left his office in

00:56:30.340 --> 00:56:33.360
like three weeks because that's the op tempo

00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:36.920
that he's expecting the command to to go through

00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:39.420
right now based off of world events and he's

00:56:39.420 --> 00:56:41.619
not willing to not pay that same price for him

00:56:41.619 --> 00:56:44.599
and i think if you had more leaders with that

00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:47.860
mentality it would probably be a little bit different

00:56:47.860 --> 00:56:50.599
and you look at uh there's a fascinating book

00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:53.260
in the worst possible way called the generals

00:56:53.260 --> 00:56:56.820
and it's basically a profile of american generalship

00:56:57.500 --> 00:57:02.239
all the way up from World War I, World War II,

00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:05.219
Korea, Vietnam, first Gulf War, and then into

00:57:05.219 --> 00:57:07.880
the war on terror. And it's a profile in the

00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:13.559
decline in the ability or capability of our generals.

00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:16.159
When you look at World War I and World War II,

00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:19.940
hands down, we had the best general level officers.

00:57:20.059 --> 00:57:24.699
That means army, admirals in the Navy. We had

00:57:24.699 --> 00:57:27.550
the best general level leadership. on the planet

00:57:27.550 --> 00:57:31.369
of any military. And then since then, it's been

00:57:31.369 --> 00:57:34.210
a steady decline. And I would argue one of the

00:57:34.210 --> 00:57:36.829
reasons is if you were a general in World War

00:57:36.829 --> 00:57:39.829
I or World War II, up even into the Marine Corps

00:57:39.829 --> 00:57:43.469
in Korea, you were in the field with your troops.

00:57:43.570 --> 00:57:45.349
Now, you probably weren't on the front line,

00:57:45.429 --> 00:57:47.610
which is not where you should be, but you were

00:57:47.610 --> 00:57:49.679
in the field. And you had your finger on the

00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:52.579
pulse of what was going on with your people and

00:57:52.579 --> 00:57:55.239
you were sharing that burden with them. The further

00:57:55.239 --> 00:57:57.360
and further they'd get disconnected from that,

00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:00.400
it doesn't matter if they have the best of intentions

00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:04.320
and they're a solid leader. You just can't replicate

00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:08.900
that scenario of living with them and seeing

00:58:08.900 --> 00:58:11.039
what they're going through and sharing a level

00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:15.360
of that with them. Why has that dynamic changed?

00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:21.099
Well, according to the book and according to

00:58:21.099 --> 00:58:26.000
things that I've seen, too, it went from a privilege

00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:29.059
to be in that role to almost like a good old

00:58:29.059 --> 00:58:31.980
boys club, where once you got in there, you were

00:58:31.980 --> 00:58:34.079
kind of a made man. It's kind of like being a

00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:36.400
tenured professor. The Marine Corps has held

00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:38.840
off on that the longest, and I would argue the

00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:41.619
Marine Corps still has the best corps of general

00:58:41.619 --> 00:58:45.000
level officers. In the American military, maybe

00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:47.460
the world, but it became kind of a club where

00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:50.500
you were protected once you got in there. Our

00:58:50.500 --> 00:58:55.159
supreme ally or the commander of all U .S. forces

00:58:55.159 --> 00:59:01.179
in the Second World War fired like 60 % of generals.

00:59:01.849 --> 00:59:05.050
60 % of generals. Now, just because you got fired

00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:07.369
didn't mean you were kicked out. He knew his

00:59:07.369 --> 00:59:09.570
generals well enough to understand their strengths

00:59:09.570 --> 00:59:12.130
and weaknesses. So he might go, hey, Sean, you

00:59:12.130 --> 00:59:14.329
know, you just turned out you really weren't

00:59:14.329 --> 00:59:17.150
that good of a tactical general. So I'm going

00:59:17.150 --> 00:59:19.610
to pull you out of the field because you have

00:59:19.610 --> 00:59:23.230
a mind for plans. And I'm going to use you as

00:59:23.230 --> 00:59:25.409
a general in our planning department to help

00:59:25.409 --> 00:59:28.269
plan the next phase of this campaign. Or James,

00:59:28.389 --> 00:59:30.590
you know, logistics, you kind of suck at it,

00:59:30.610 --> 00:59:32.809
man. But you know what? You are piss and vinegar,

00:59:32.929 --> 00:59:34.670
and I'm going to put you out on the front line

00:59:34.670 --> 00:59:39.429
like leading troops. And he would use them to

00:59:39.429 --> 00:59:41.289
the best of their abilities. But if they weren't

00:59:41.289 --> 00:59:43.670
getting the job done, he fired him. And why did

00:59:43.670 --> 00:59:45.730
he fire him? Because he cares more about the

00:59:45.730 --> 00:59:48.250
guys on the ground than he does about this general.

00:59:48.469 --> 00:59:50.070
That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the general,

00:59:50.190 --> 00:59:52.369
but he knows what it's all about. And I think

00:59:52.369 --> 00:59:54.769
we've lost that mentality. Matter of fact, I

00:59:54.769 --> 00:59:57.329
know we've lost that mentality. Yeah, yeah. And

00:59:57.329 --> 00:59:59.949
again, I can just see it in my mind now and in

00:59:59.949 --> 01:00:02.969
my profession as well. To your point, 40 % were

01:00:02.969 --> 01:00:04.769
phenomenal. Same in the fire service. We have

01:00:04.769 --> 01:00:09.090
some great, great fire service leaders and law

01:00:09.090 --> 01:00:13.789
enforcement and EMS specifically. But the damage

01:00:13.789 --> 01:00:16.429
that the wrong person can do that is more concerned

01:00:16.429 --> 01:00:19.289
about their own political path or career ladder

01:00:19.289 --> 01:00:21.510
than the people that serve under them. I mean,

01:00:21.550 --> 01:00:23.909
as I've said, and it's raw, but it's true. Our

01:00:23.909 --> 01:00:27.110
graveyards are full of those. Yep. Yep, absolutely.

01:00:27.349 --> 01:00:29.449
And then the last thing that compounds that too

01:00:29.449 --> 01:00:32.880
is. When you get to a certain level of generalship,

01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.519
part of your job is to also, unfortunately, be

01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:38.920
a politician because you are interacting and

01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:42.639
liaisoning with policy and different groups.

01:00:42.659 --> 01:00:45.760
So that has to help muddy the waters, too, of

01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:49.599
where their real focus should be. What about

01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:52.360
as you look back now over your military career

01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:55.280
specifically, whether it's yourself or people

01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:57.440
you're around, what were some of the biggest

01:00:57.440 --> 01:01:00.500
leadership mistakes? And then what was some of

01:01:00.500 --> 01:01:03.860
the most powerful mentors that you had in that

01:01:03.860 --> 01:01:05.420
role? Obviously, you mentioned Beef. I mean,

01:01:05.460 --> 01:01:07.119
just what he did with your career was a perfect

01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:10.519
example. Absolutely. Look, the biggest leadership

01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:13.760
mistake that anybody can be is to lack humility.

01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:17.059
I mean, there's not even one that's a close second

01:01:17.059 --> 01:01:20.539
because it opens the door to all of these different

01:01:20.539 --> 01:01:23.139
pitfalls that aren't just going to affect you,

01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:24.860
but they're going to affect everybody around

01:01:24.860 --> 01:01:28.320
you. And hey, you know, if you're a leader in

01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.300
a corporation and you lack humility, you're going

01:01:31.300 --> 01:01:33.139
to make bad decisions and that's going to affect

01:01:33.139 --> 01:01:35.079
people's livelihood. And that's a terrible thing.

01:01:35.340 --> 01:01:38.420
If you are. A leader who lacks humility in the

01:01:38.420 --> 01:01:40.980
first responder world or in the military, your

01:01:40.980 --> 01:01:43.300
lack of humility could result in people getting

01:01:43.300 --> 01:01:45.840
killed, which is the, you know, ultimate sin

01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:52.019
of a leader. When you lack, like, you're going

01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:55.699
to make mistakes. There's no part of your job

01:01:55.699 --> 01:01:58.059
description as a leader that says you can never

01:01:58.059 --> 01:02:00.340
make a mistake. Like, that's an unreal expectation.

01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:04.340
What we expect of leaders is that when they make

01:02:04.340 --> 01:02:07.170
a mistake, they have the humility. to analyze

01:02:07.170 --> 01:02:09.849
that mistake, to own that mistake, and to fix

01:02:09.849 --> 01:02:12.409
that mistake and not do it again going forward.

01:02:13.130 --> 01:02:16.190
The other thing that's really damaging about

01:02:16.190 --> 01:02:22.710
not having humility is you think you have it

01:02:22.710 --> 01:02:25.329
all figured out and you don't ask the opinions

01:02:25.329 --> 01:02:28.610
of people around you. We don't expect leaders.

01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:31.920
In the military, in the civilian sector, in the

01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:33.639
first responder role, we don't expect you to

01:02:33.639 --> 01:02:37.119
have all the answers. That's also not realistic.

01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:40.659
But we do expect you to find the answer. And

01:02:40.659 --> 01:02:44.159
how do I do that? Well, James, if I'm your leader

01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:47.400
and you're a chief in my platoon and you've got

01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:51.199
16 years of tactical experience and I'm struggling

01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:55.500
to solve this problem, I should go and I should

01:02:55.500 --> 01:02:57.659
ask you, hey, James, what have you seen, man?

01:02:58.059 --> 01:03:00.820
What am I missing here that you're seeing? Have

01:03:00.820 --> 01:03:03.239
you seen this problem before? In your experience

01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:06.820
and your expertise, what would you do to fix

01:03:06.820 --> 01:03:08.760
this problem or address this problem? And that

01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:11.760
takes a tremendous amount of humility. And leaders

01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:15.320
that won't do those things, it causes this chain

01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:20.780
reaction up and down the chain of command. The

01:03:20.780 --> 01:03:23.059
opposite of that is true as well, as far as like

01:03:23.059 --> 01:03:26.650
the best traits. is a leader who has their ego

01:03:26.650 --> 01:03:29.449
in check and like look having ego is not a bad

01:03:29.449 --> 01:03:33.409
thing in and of itself i would not have been

01:03:33.409 --> 01:03:35.409
in the steel teams if i didn't have an ego that

01:03:35.409 --> 01:03:38.989
was that was driving me and pushing me to accomplish

01:03:38.989 --> 01:03:41.750
that goal um you probably would not have made

01:03:41.750 --> 01:03:43.949
it as far as you have in your career if you didn't

01:03:43.949 --> 01:03:46.650
have an ego motivating you and pushing you to

01:03:46.650 --> 01:03:49.110
be a professional and to be the best that you

01:03:49.110 --> 01:03:52.829
can be but that ego can get out of control and

01:03:52.829 --> 01:03:55.269
cause all kinds of problems. And the best leaders

01:03:55.269 --> 01:03:58.070
that I worked for and the best leaders that I

01:03:58.070 --> 01:04:00.110
saw come through training when I was running

01:04:00.110 --> 01:04:03.349
training were the leaders that were humble, that

01:04:03.349 --> 01:04:06.250
listened to people around them, that used the

01:04:06.250 --> 01:04:08.610
ideas of the people around them, that empowered

01:04:08.610 --> 01:04:11.469
the people around them and could own up to a

01:04:11.469 --> 01:04:15.510
mistake when they made a mistake. You mentioned

01:04:15.510 --> 01:04:17.170
about training. It's funny because that's where

01:04:17.170 --> 01:04:22.280
I've seen The poor training in my profession

01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:25.900
is when you go, you're expected to do it once

01:04:25.900 --> 01:04:29.239
correctly. They check a box and then that's it.

01:04:29.340 --> 01:04:30.920
And if you don't do it correctly, so you didn't

01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:32.880
do it correctly. They still check a box and then

01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:35.139
you go. The good training, you know, there's

01:04:35.139 --> 01:04:37.599
multiple layers to it and that you're set up

01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:39.480
to fail. And then they're like, all right, what

01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:41.079
would you do the next time? OK, let's try it

01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:44.090
again. And so now. the training ground is exactly

01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:46.550
where the mistakes are made. So hopefully on

01:04:46.550 --> 01:04:49.309
the fire ground or the extrication site, whatever

01:04:49.309 --> 01:04:51.929
it is, now hopefully things are going to go right

01:04:51.929 --> 01:04:54.389
or we've got plan B and plan C because we train

01:04:54.389 --> 01:04:58.389
that way. Before we hit record, you talked about

01:04:58.389 --> 01:05:01.190
training in your profession and actually having

01:05:01.190 --> 01:05:04.389
a unique perspective on the impact of sleep deprivation

01:05:04.389 --> 01:05:06.829
on the performance of these high -level warfires.

01:05:06.989 --> 01:05:09.690
So I'll give you the microphone knowing how passionate

01:05:09.690 --> 01:05:13.679
I am about this topic. Yeah. In the military,

01:05:14.019 --> 01:05:17.460
we love to, well, at least in the SEAL teams,

01:05:17.719 --> 01:05:22.659
we love to sleep -deprive people. You know, it's

01:05:22.659 --> 01:05:27.840
not that we do it out of this sense of, you know,

01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.199
wanting to torture people or make people miserable.

01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:32.059
It's a part of the job. Like, you're going to

01:05:32.059 --> 01:05:35.320
go overseas and deploy if there's a war going

01:05:35.320 --> 01:05:38.849
on, and there are going to be times. have to

01:05:38.849 --> 01:05:43.949
push through and just stay awake for 24, 48 hours

01:05:43.949 --> 01:05:46.170
based on the needs of the mission. So we're trying

01:05:46.170 --> 01:05:50.590
to get people used, one, to the realization that

01:05:50.590 --> 01:05:53.889
they can push themselves, and two, that at some

01:05:53.889 --> 01:05:55.690
point in time in their career, they're going

01:05:55.690 --> 01:05:58.269
to be called upon to do that. Hell Week, which

01:05:58.269 --> 01:06:00.190
is a part of the initial selection pipeline,

01:06:00.510 --> 01:06:03.789
it's six days of nonstop physical activity where

01:06:03.789 --> 01:06:05.690
they're going to get no more than two and a half

01:06:05.690 --> 01:06:08.659
hours of sleep. over a six -day period. So that's

01:06:08.659 --> 01:06:11.380
not each night. That's no more than two and a

01:06:11.380 --> 01:06:15.320
half hours of sleep over a six -day period. When

01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:17.480
I was running training and when I was going through

01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:22.099
training, we replicate these periods of having

01:06:22.099 --> 01:06:24.739
to just push through at a high op tempo. And

01:06:24.739 --> 01:06:26.719
how we do that is we have these events that we

01:06:26.719 --> 01:06:30.000
call field training exercises or FTXs for short.

01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:34.539
And an FTX is... as close to a real world operation

01:06:34.539 --> 01:06:38.219
as we can get in a training environment. So we're

01:06:38.219 --> 01:06:40.460
trying to replicate real world environments.

01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:42.500
There's a mission planning cycle. They're going

01:06:42.500 --> 01:06:46.619
to get aircraft and helicopters and jets and

01:06:46.619 --> 01:06:48.420
all these different assets to take out there.

01:06:48.460 --> 01:06:49.860
We're going to give them these really complex

01:06:49.860 --> 01:06:52.400
problems. They're going to have to plan how they're

01:06:52.400 --> 01:06:54.820
going to do it, plan for contingencies, and then

01:06:54.820 --> 01:06:56.320
they're going to have to go out there and execute.

01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:58.539
And then as soon as they're done with that, we

01:06:58.539 --> 01:07:00.400
give them another one and another one and another

01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:02.519
one. And we do this for three to five nights

01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:05.239
in a row. Over the course of that three to five

01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:09.099
nights, leaders are getting almost no sleep.

01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:12.380
And what we saw replicated again and again and

01:07:12.380 --> 01:07:14.840
again, and we have some data to back this up

01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:17.179
because we have, you know, some sleep scientists

01:07:17.179 --> 01:07:20.260
that came out prior to my time running the training

01:07:20.260 --> 01:07:23.059
command to kind of collect this data, is that

01:07:23.059 --> 01:07:27.630
high performing individuals. can function at

01:07:27.630 --> 01:07:31.849
a pretty normal level for about 48 hours. And

01:07:31.849 --> 01:07:34.369
then when they hit that 48 hours, it's not this

01:07:34.369 --> 01:07:38.090
gradual slope of decrease in performance. It's

01:07:38.090 --> 01:07:41.010
a cliff. It's a straight dive off of that cliff

01:07:41.010 --> 01:07:43.710
where their cognitive and their physical abilities

01:07:43.710 --> 01:07:47.929
just plummet. So what we learned is if someone

01:07:47.929 --> 01:07:50.590
has to push themselves and there's a time where

01:07:50.590 --> 01:07:52.170
you're like, look guys, we just have to push

01:07:52.170 --> 01:07:55.289
through because we have this, you know, multi

01:07:55.289 --> 01:07:57.530
-day operation that we have to go on. We know

01:07:57.530 --> 01:08:00.510
that the limit where we can expect our guys to

01:08:00.510 --> 01:08:03.690
function at their normal ability is no more than

01:08:03.690 --> 01:08:06.309
48 hours. And if something is going to cause

01:08:06.309 --> 01:08:09.840
us to go past that 48 hours, We understand we're

01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:12.420
taking a significant risk and that risk has to

01:08:12.420 --> 01:08:16.060
go into our mission planning, into our risk mitigation

01:08:16.060 --> 01:08:18.560
to ensure that we're keeping everybody safe.

01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:23.840
So now you look at a career that's defined by

01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:27.020
these cycles of like, just push for 48 hours

01:08:27.020 --> 01:08:29.619
in perpetuity and you'll be totally fine. And

01:08:29.619 --> 01:08:33.520
when we do these FTXs. You know, there's a lot

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:36.239
of time and space in between these FTXs. There's

01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:38.420
like a month, month and a half in between these

01:08:38.420 --> 01:08:41.859
FTXs. We're not asking them to do this back to

01:08:41.859 --> 01:08:45.619
back to back to back over a 20, 25 year career.

01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:49.260
So I can only imagine the effect that that's

01:08:49.260 --> 01:08:51.920
having on people long term. And the thing about

01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:54.199
it that we've learned is you don't get better

01:08:54.199 --> 01:08:56.159
at this. This is not like a stress that you can

01:08:56.159 --> 01:08:58.880
get better at. Managing stress in a kill house.

01:08:59.340 --> 01:09:02.199
I can get better at by doing more runs and increasing

01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:05.939
my skill in the kill house. Managing my stress

01:09:05.939 --> 01:09:08.680
level when I'm jumping out of an airplane, I

01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:11.600
can get better at because I can get more proficient

01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:14.159
in that skill and I can conduct more jumps, which

01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:16.399
lowers my stress reaction to that environment.

01:09:17.680 --> 01:09:20.760
Your stress reaction and the effects of these

01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:24.649
48 -hour cycles does not get any better. It's

01:09:24.649 --> 01:09:27.229
not like after three weeks of those, all of a

01:09:27.229 --> 01:09:30.430
sudden your body learns to function for 72 hours

01:09:30.430 --> 01:09:33.409
or 96 hours. That's not how it works. It's just

01:09:33.409 --> 01:09:36.069
a steady cliff that has long lasting impacts.

01:09:36.710 --> 01:09:38.390
It's really interesting because it was literally

01:09:38.390 --> 01:09:40.569
a seal that opened my eyes to this whole thing.

01:09:40.590 --> 01:09:45.310
It was Kirk Parsley. listening to him you know

01:09:45.310 --> 01:09:47.689
talk initially and this was like 10 years ago

01:09:47.689 --> 01:09:50.149
now listening to him on the original barbell

01:09:50.149 --> 01:09:52.390
shrug podcast and then they were talking about

01:09:52.390 --> 01:09:55.850
it from a sports specific point of view but the

01:09:55.850 --> 01:09:57.970
backstory you know where they were running these

01:09:57.970 --> 01:10:00.029
ops like the old way and you know he was doing

01:10:00.029 --> 01:10:01.890
all the blood work and it was all like 80 year

01:10:01.890 --> 01:10:03.529
old women he's like what the hell these are navy

01:10:03.529 --> 01:10:06.949
seals um and then reframing everything for the

01:10:06.949 --> 01:10:10.149
rest and recovery and i've i've Since then said,

01:10:10.250 --> 01:10:11.989
you know, to my profession, well, think about

01:10:11.989 --> 01:10:14.890
it. Sleep deprivation is used deliberately for

01:10:14.890 --> 01:10:17.590
three things. Special forces, special operations

01:10:17.590 --> 01:10:21.090
selection, like Hell Week, interrogation and

01:10:21.090 --> 01:10:24.829
torture. That's it. None of those are high performance.

01:10:24.970 --> 01:10:27.810
They're breaking people down. And so to your

01:10:27.810 --> 01:10:30.689
point, yeah, if you've got a 48 hour, you know,

01:10:30.689 --> 01:10:33.850
op that. you're pushing through and then you

01:10:33.850 --> 01:10:35.609
have this long rest and recovery. Well, that's

01:10:35.609 --> 01:10:38.369
one thing. But one of the shift schedules that

01:10:38.369 --> 01:10:42.770
the West Coast loves a lot is 48 on 96 off, which

01:10:42.770 --> 01:10:44.609
means that you actually only have three days

01:10:44.609 --> 01:10:47.229
because that third of those three days you work

01:10:47.229 --> 01:10:50.250
from that midnight to the morning, which is not

01:10:50.250 --> 01:10:52.510
enough time to recover. But then, as you mentioned,

01:10:52.590 --> 01:10:56.489
you times that by 10, 15, 20, 25 years, there's

01:10:56.489 --> 01:10:59.529
a cumulative drop off each time. So I would argue

01:10:59.529 --> 01:11:02.390
using your model that the brand new person maybe

01:11:02.390 --> 01:11:05.890
could push through to 48. 10 years in, I would

01:11:05.890 --> 01:11:07.810
guarantee you it's probably degraded down to

01:11:07.810 --> 01:11:10.729
24 if you're lucky. So you've got this step down

01:11:10.729 --> 01:11:13.369
as well. So getting them to understand that if

01:11:13.369 --> 01:11:15.550
you're going to be 24, which I think that's the

01:11:15.550 --> 01:11:17.550
kind of accepted one, you know, we have a place

01:11:17.550 --> 01:11:20.729
to sleep, you know, changing the days and nights.

01:11:20.770 --> 01:11:22.630
We know that doesn't work. I mean, look at police

01:11:22.630 --> 01:11:25.369
and, you know, ERs. They're not exactly epitome

01:11:25.369 --> 01:11:30.039
of health. After that 24, you've got to forge

01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:32.199
enough rest and recovery to get back to zero

01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:35.340
for the next 24, which is this 24 -72 that I

01:11:35.340 --> 01:11:37.539
talk about all the time. And, you know, Florida

01:11:37.539 --> 01:11:39.800
has been leaning into and, you know, surprise,

01:11:39.939 --> 01:11:42.039
surprise, it works. People are happy and healthy

01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:45.979
again. Yeah, crazy how when you listen to all

01:11:45.979 --> 01:11:48.119
of the things that we know about the importance

01:11:48.119 --> 01:11:51.420
of sleep, crazy how things just tend to fall

01:11:51.420 --> 01:11:55.479
into place. You know, for our community, it is

01:11:55.479 --> 01:11:59.010
a fine balance. because there are going to be

01:11:59.010 --> 01:12:01.909
times where guys are going to go overseas and

01:12:01.909 --> 01:12:04.369
the tempo is going to be something where they

01:12:04.369 --> 01:12:06.350
have to push themselves. So it's important for

01:12:06.350 --> 01:12:09.050
guys to understand that they can, but it's also

01:12:09.050 --> 01:12:11.770
important for leaders to understand that that's

01:12:11.770 --> 01:12:14.090
not sustainable and it's a time and a place.

01:12:14.270 --> 01:12:16.329
And if our expectation is that they're doing

01:12:16.329 --> 01:12:19.430
that again and again and again and again, all

01:12:19.430 --> 01:12:22.090
you're doing is you're taking this really expensive,

01:12:22.369 --> 01:12:25.489
really high performing individual. And you're

01:12:25.489 --> 01:12:28.010
slowly degrading them over an entire career.

01:12:28.229 --> 01:12:31.850
And then you look at the impacts outside of just

01:12:31.850 --> 01:12:37.550
the work itself. You work a 48 -hour shift. Do

01:12:37.550 --> 01:12:39.010
you think you're getting good quality family

01:12:39.010 --> 01:12:41.649
time in that 24 hours when you come off of that

01:12:41.649 --> 01:12:44.449
shift? Or do you think you're kind of like a

01:12:44.449 --> 01:12:47.810
zombie dead to the world need to recover? So

01:12:47.810 --> 01:12:49.970
now you're talking about extra stressors that

01:12:49.970 --> 01:12:53.569
are compounding in here. So it's not just like

01:12:53.569 --> 01:12:55.909
the impact on the job itself. There's a lot more

01:12:55.909 --> 01:12:59.470
things that you have to look at. 100%. Well,

01:12:59.489 --> 01:13:01.710
let's walk to echelon front. So firstly, how

01:13:01.710 --> 01:13:03.569
did you find yourself working with Jocko and

01:13:03.569 --> 01:13:07.289
Leif? Yeah, so Jocko put me through my first

01:13:07.289 --> 01:13:10.789
workout. So I've known him and Leif was my first

01:13:10.789 --> 01:13:13.170
leadership instructor in the SEAL teams. He was

01:13:13.170 --> 01:13:16.890
running our junior officer training course when

01:13:16.890 --> 01:13:19.729
I was going through selection. So I had like

01:13:19.729 --> 01:13:22.470
at least a peripheral relationship with both

01:13:22.470 --> 01:13:26.890
of those individuals. And Jason Gardner was my,

01:13:27.090 --> 01:13:29.609
he was a troop chief when I first checked into

01:13:29.609 --> 01:13:32.470
Team 7. So that's where I met him first. When

01:13:32.470 --> 01:13:35.630
I was at... running our third phase of buds later

01:13:35.630 --> 01:13:38.510
in my career, my next move was going to be a

01:13:38.510 --> 01:13:41.869
troop commander. And Jason was going to team

01:13:41.869 --> 01:13:44.350
five to be the command master chief of team five

01:13:44.350 --> 01:13:48.189
with beef. And I reached out to him about coming

01:13:48.189 --> 01:13:51.649
over to team five. And he put in a good word

01:13:51.649 --> 01:13:53.890
for me to beef and I ended up over at team five

01:13:53.890 --> 01:13:57.829
with him. After he finished up that tour, he

01:13:57.829 --> 01:13:59.630
went to the training command and he was the command

01:13:59.630 --> 01:14:02.329
master chief of the training command. And then

01:14:02.670 --> 01:14:05.569
After my tours at Team 5, I ended up over with

01:14:05.569 --> 01:14:08.010
Jason running the training command again, which

01:14:08.010 --> 01:14:10.789
is why I joke that Jason was put in place to

01:14:10.789 --> 01:14:12.609
babysit me everywhere that I went and make sure

01:14:12.609 --> 01:14:14.949
I didn't get into too much trouble. Well, Jason

01:14:14.949 --> 01:14:18.130
retired after 30 years of service and went to

01:14:18.130 --> 01:14:20.770
work for Echelon Front, and he loved every second

01:14:20.770 --> 01:14:23.430
of it. So when he found out, when I talked to

01:14:23.430 --> 01:14:25.729
him and told him I made the decision to get out.

01:14:26.489 --> 01:14:29.449
He was like, hey, man, you would be an awesome

01:14:29.449 --> 01:14:32.130
addition to this team and you would love this

01:14:32.130 --> 01:14:36.189
work. So he put in a good word with Jocko. I

01:14:36.189 --> 01:14:39.949
sat down with Jocko and we just kind of talked

01:14:39.949 --> 01:14:42.810
about that possibility. I was initially going

01:14:42.810 --> 01:14:45.430
to go on board with Echelon Front right after

01:14:45.430 --> 01:14:47.930
I got out of the SEAL teams. But my friend Garrett

01:14:47.930 --> 01:14:50.869
approached me and asked me if I would help him.

01:14:51.170 --> 01:14:54.329
And I went to Jocko to kind of get his advice.

01:14:54.510 --> 01:14:57.090
And he's like, hey, man. You would be dumb not

01:14:57.090 --> 01:14:59.329
to do this. You know, you'll get a chance to

01:14:59.329 --> 01:15:01.829
build a great company. You'll get to learn a

01:15:01.829 --> 01:15:04.890
whole bunch about leadership in a different capacity,

01:15:05.050 --> 01:15:07.729
about the startup world, about the corporate

01:15:07.729 --> 01:15:10.710
sector. And then whenever you want, we're here

01:15:10.710 --> 01:15:13.350
for you and you can come and work for us. And

01:15:13.350 --> 01:15:15.710
you'll just be more of an asset for Echelon because

01:15:15.710 --> 01:15:17.970
now you'll have leadership experience at all

01:15:17.970 --> 01:15:22.199
these different tiers. When we made the decision,

01:15:22.279 --> 01:15:24.159
and the reason we left the construction tech

01:15:24.159 --> 01:15:26.460
company was we just made the decision to move

01:15:26.460 --> 01:15:28.880
out of California, which is where the tech company

01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:31.800
was stationed. So the day that I stopped working

01:15:31.800 --> 01:15:35.239
for Garrett, I went on board with Jocko and Leif

01:15:35.239 --> 01:15:38.119
at Echelon Front, all thanks to a good advocate

01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:41.220
who advocated for me throughout my career in

01:15:41.220 --> 01:15:44.739
Jason Gardner. But don't tell him I said that.

01:15:45.079 --> 01:15:49.189
I'm sure he's listening. So now you come from

01:15:49.189 --> 01:15:51.529
this long military background, you had an exposure

01:15:51.529 --> 01:15:54.649
on the corporate side as well. A lot of people

01:15:54.649 --> 01:15:56.729
from the first responder professions, arguably

01:15:56.729 --> 01:16:00.109
a lot of people in chief positions are attending

01:16:00.109 --> 01:16:03.970
the musters and some of the other events that

01:16:03.970 --> 01:16:07.510
you guys put on. What was your first impression?

01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:11.840
of just what that looked like. I'm not going

01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:14.439
to be very specific, but what that diverse landscape

01:16:14.439 --> 01:16:17.760
of these personalities that are the helm of these

01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:22.340
large organizations. Yeah. Well, if we're talking

01:16:22.340 --> 01:16:26.199
about the first responder community in general,

01:16:26.359 --> 01:16:29.840
what I would say is just talk to me when I go

01:16:29.840 --> 01:16:31.500
and work with you guys. For the love of Pete,

01:16:31.659 --> 01:16:33.659
they're like, it's super hard to get them to

01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:38.479
open up at first. Once they get rocking and rolling

01:16:38.479 --> 01:16:40.560
and we start to have these really good discussions

01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:43.739
around leadership and what it means to be a part

01:16:43.739 --> 01:16:48.319
of a team, everybody wants the same thing. Everybody

01:16:48.319 --> 01:16:51.439
wants to be a part of an organization, whether

01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:54.880
it's first responders or, you know, a high performing

01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:57.279
team in the corporate environment. Everybody

01:16:57.279 --> 01:16:59.920
wants to be a part of a team that they feel like

01:16:59.920 --> 01:17:02.819
is making a difference and they feel like they

01:17:02.819 --> 01:17:07.079
can use their talents. and their abilities to

01:17:07.079 --> 01:17:09.920
help that organization make a difference. And

01:17:09.920 --> 01:17:12.619
I would say that's the common thread that I've

01:17:12.619 --> 01:17:15.600
seen, regardless of the endeavor, whether it's

01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:17.460
the military, whether it's first responders,

01:17:17.640 --> 01:17:22.680
whether it's corporations, they're full of people

01:17:22.680 --> 01:17:24.859
who genuinely want to do, for the most part,

01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:26.800
who genuinely want to perform, who genuinely

01:17:26.800 --> 01:17:29.479
want to do their best and help support the people

01:17:29.479 --> 01:17:32.850
around them. And unfortunately, A lot of times

01:17:32.850 --> 01:17:35.630
when people are not allowed to do that or they

01:17:35.630 --> 01:17:38.869
get disenfranchised or burnt out has nothing

01:17:38.869 --> 01:17:42.550
to do with their desire and almost everything

01:17:42.550 --> 01:17:44.829
to do with the people that are in charge of them.

01:17:46.539 --> 01:17:49.479
When I was talking to Jocko in our first conversation,

01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:52.380
obviously ownership is a big thing. And I pointed

01:17:52.380 --> 01:17:54.619
out to him in that particular department I was

01:17:54.619 --> 01:17:57.279
working for that the chain of command only had

01:17:57.279 --> 01:18:01.399
about four or five rungs. And if that top rung

01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:03.340
grooms the next rung, then you're in this kind

01:18:03.340 --> 01:18:06.100
of vicious cycle. And you can, at your own level,

01:18:06.239 --> 01:18:08.680
have extreme ownership and try and be a positive

01:18:08.680 --> 01:18:10.399
influence from whatever rank that you're in at

01:18:10.399 --> 01:18:13.880
the time. But sometimes you're just in this environment

01:18:13.880 --> 01:18:17.579
that is very, very toxic. And like in my particular

01:18:17.579 --> 01:18:20.060
example, it was walking out and fixing it from

01:18:20.060 --> 01:18:22.699
the outside that was ultimately the solution

01:18:22.699 --> 01:18:25.899
that I went with. What are some of the challenges

01:18:25.899 --> 01:18:30.399
that you're hearing from these people in these

01:18:30.399 --> 01:18:32.560
positions that do have the heart for it? And

01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:34.600
what are some of the success stories? What are

01:18:34.600 --> 01:18:37.270
some of the takeaways from? you know, Echelon

01:18:37.270 --> 01:18:39.989
Front's mentorship that is actually having an

01:18:39.989 --> 01:18:41.689
actionable change in some of these departments?

01:18:43.430 --> 01:18:46.869
Yeah, look, when you're talking in general about

01:18:46.869 --> 01:18:50.630
being a part of a team that maybe is not being

01:18:50.630 --> 01:18:54.750
led very well and it's causing issues and friction

01:18:54.750 --> 01:18:57.649
down the chain of command and you're feeling

01:18:57.649 --> 01:19:00.409
like you don't have a lot of ability to affect

01:19:00.409 --> 01:19:05.350
the chain of command, the reason is In some cases,

01:19:05.350 --> 01:19:07.810
you don't have a lot of ability to affect the

01:19:07.810 --> 01:19:10.270
chain of command. Now, we could talk a lot about

01:19:10.270 --> 01:19:12.310
strategies for having a better relationship,

01:19:12.529 --> 01:19:15.550
which means that you have more influence, picking

01:19:15.550 --> 01:19:18.270
and choosing your battles, so that when you do

01:19:18.270 --> 01:19:21.550
choose to make something a concern or bring something

01:19:21.550 --> 01:19:25.590
up, you're not the boy who cried wolf over and

01:19:25.590 --> 01:19:29.130
over again. But I would see the same kind of...

01:19:29.340 --> 01:19:31.840
paradigm in the military, especially when I was

01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.420
running the training command, because I was putting

01:19:34.420 --> 01:19:36.579
every platoon on the West Coast through their

01:19:36.579 --> 01:19:39.239
training functions. And we had good leaders and

01:19:39.239 --> 01:19:41.239
we had bad leaders from a team level all the

01:19:41.239 --> 01:19:44.380
way down to a platoon level. And what I would

01:19:44.380 --> 01:19:46.060
tell people that feel like maybe they're stuck

01:19:46.060 --> 01:19:48.960
in that cycle of not having a lot of influence

01:19:48.960 --> 01:19:55.319
in the negative environment is good teams can

01:19:55.319 --> 01:19:59.600
absolutely overcome bad leadership. But you have

01:19:59.600 --> 01:20:02.819
to be focused on the right things. If you're

01:20:02.819 --> 01:20:05.840
focused on the bad leadership, nothing is going

01:20:05.840 --> 01:20:08.399
to change. You're going to get burnout. You're

01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:10.760
going to get frustrated. Those frustrations are

01:20:10.760 --> 01:20:12.420
probably going to bleed into your day -to -day

01:20:12.420 --> 01:20:15.500
interactions with your teammates and cause friction.

01:20:16.380 --> 01:20:20.680
But if you take the energy that you are using.

01:20:21.430 --> 01:20:23.409
focusing on the thing that you can't change,

01:20:23.510 --> 01:20:26.310
and you focus it on trying to ensure that you're

01:20:26.310 --> 01:20:28.369
building the best team that you possibly can

01:20:28.369 --> 01:20:30.609
with the people around you, and you're looking

01:20:30.609 --> 01:20:32.710
out for each other and supporting the people

01:20:32.710 --> 01:20:35.529
to your left and to your right, a lot of good

01:20:35.529 --> 01:20:37.909
things can happen. And I would see, I could give

01:20:37.909 --> 01:20:41.050
you example after example of platoons that were

01:20:41.050 --> 01:20:44.229
not led well, but it was no factor because the

01:20:44.229 --> 01:20:46.949
guys in the platoon were focused on getting the

01:20:46.949 --> 01:20:50.210
job done and supporting each other. And in doing

01:20:50.210 --> 01:20:52.850
that, in putting the mission first and the team

01:20:52.850 --> 01:20:55.630
first, they were still able to be really effective.

01:20:56.369 --> 01:20:59.390
I also saw times where there were bad leaders,

01:20:59.449 --> 01:21:01.890
bad platoon commander, bad platoon chief, bad

01:21:01.890 --> 01:21:05.609
troop commander, and the platoon was horrible.

01:21:05.810 --> 01:21:08.329
And the reason the platoon was horrible is because

01:21:08.329 --> 01:21:10.550
they were focused on the thing that they can't

01:21:10.550 --> 01:21:14.130
change and not focused on what they could control

01:21:14.130 --> 01:21:17.760
and what they could own. If you're in that scenario,

01:21:17.939 --> 01:21:22.420
you got one of two choices. Option one is leave.

01:21:22.920 --> 01:21:25.920
Look, that's a huge decision. That's a huge decision

01:21:25.920 --> 01:21:28.779
that might affect not just you, but people that

01:21:28.779 --> 01:21:32.600
depend on you for support to provide for them,

01:21:32.659 --> 01:21:35.159
you know, your family. There's a lot of good.

01:21:35.539 --> 01:21:37.460
You're a perfect case in point. And sometimes.

01:21:38.060 --> 01:21:40.819
outsize good that can happen by making a move

01:21:40.819 --> 01:21:42.960
like that but if you're in this scenario and

01:21:42.960 --> 01:21:44.460
you're like well nothing i'm doing is working

01:21:44.460 --> 01:21:47.000
ultimately you have one choice which is to leave

01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:49.680
and find something else to do the other choice

01:21:49.680 --> 01:21:54.319
is to own the things that you can own which is

01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:57.319
your performance your ability to keep the focus

01:21:57.319 --> 01:21:59.920
on the mission your ability to support the people

01:21:59.920 --> 01:22:03.000
around you and influence the people around you

01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:06.100
to do the same thing. And I would argue from

01:22:06.100 --> 01:22:08.319
my experience, from what I've seen, and also

01:22:08.319 --> 01:22:11.659
from having a tour or two where I wasn't led

01:22:11.659 --> 01:22:14.479
the best in the SEAL teams and had some of those

01:22:14.479 --> 01:22:18.739
experiences, is if you can focus on the people

01:22:18.739 --> 01:22:21.380
around you and supporting them and getting the

01:22:21.380 --> 01:22:24.020
mission done and not spend your time worrying

01:22:24.020 --> 01:22:27.039
about the things that you can't control, things

01:22:27.039 --> 01:22:29.180
get better. Doesn't mean things are going to

01:22:29.180 --> 01:22:31.539
be perfect. But things will absolutely get better.

01:22:32.340 --> 01:22:35.739
One thing that I've seen as well is I think our

01:22:35.739 --> 01:22:41.359
profession is just so underslept and overworked

01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:45.300
that the ability to critically think diminishes

01:22:45.300 --> 01:22:48.699
rapidly. And so, for example, they're so hell

01:22:48.699 --> 01:22:52.159
-bent on banging heads with the union, the administration,

01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:55.750
the city, the county, whoever it is. Sometimes

01:22:55.750 --> 01:22:58.470
they can't see that actually the solution that

01:22:58.470 --> 01:23:00.569
fixes all things is right in front of them. But

01:23:00.569 --> 01:23:05.250
you have to repair these relationships. And we're

01:23:05.250 --> 01:23:07.550
in Florida where these departments have really

01:23:07.550 --> 01:23:10.510
moved forward. Massive respect to all the people

01:23:10.510 --> 01:23:12.350
in those positions because they've done that.

01:23:12.449 --> 01:23:14.729
They're like, look, enough is enough. Let's just

01:23:14.729 --> 01:23:16.729
sit down. Let's just talk about this. And I'll

01:23:16.729 --> 01:23:19.810
give Plano, Texas a shout out. They sat down

01:23:19.810 --> 01:23:23.770
and in one day hashed out how to completely revolutionize

01:23:23.770 --> 01:23:25.909
their work week. Because as you said, humility,

01:23:26.050 --> 01:23:28.630
they left all their egos out the door. Pasco

01:23:28.630 --> 01:23:32.310
County in Florida, another good example. So this

01:23:32.310 --> 01:23:35.470
is what I think another thing is, rather than

01:23:35.470 --> 01:23:38.329
having this constant headbanging with these groups

01:23:38.329 --> 01:23:42.109
because he wears bugles or that person's a politician,

01:23:42.449 --> 01:23:44.890
but actually taking a step back, but what is

01:23:44.890 --> 01:23:47.149
the solution? What is the thing that works that

01:23:47.149 --> 01:23:49.810
we can do as a team? And then in this particular

01:23:49.810 --> 01:23:52.250
example with the work week and the recruitment

01:23:52.250 --> 01:23:54.819
and crisis and the retention crisis, The answer

01:23:54.819 --> 01:23:57.600
is the same. The overtime money wastage is the

01:23:57.600 --> 01:24:00.159
same exact thing, but it's a false economy to

01:24:00.159 --> 01:24:02.479
work the people the way they do. You have to

01:24:02.479 --> 01:24:05.020
invest money up front and that will save hand

01:24:05.020 --> 01:24:08.199
over fist on the way down. So now all we're really

01:24:08.199 --> 01:24:10.180
left with is egos because it's someone going,

01:24:10.300 --> 01:24:13.359
you know what? We were wrong. Just the ability

01:24:13.359 --> 01:24:16.819
to say we were wrong. Let's start doing something

01:24:16.819 --> 01:24:19.640
different. I think if we could just implant that

01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:22.340
into someone's head so all the egos settle down,

01:24:22.479 --> 01:24:25.460
they actually look at. The spreadsheet, the way

01:24:25.460 --> 01:24:27.199
it's supposed to be seen, and here's the money

01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:29.220
that's downstream, and here's how it costs to

01:24:29.220 --> 01:24:31.300
put these extra people. And if we took that from

01:24:31.300 --> 01:24:33.180
there and put it there, then boom, now we're

01:24:33.180 --> 01:24:36.899
in a much better place. The solutions are there,

01:24:37.020 --> 01:24:39.220
but I see that people, like I said, they're so

01:24:39.220 --> 01:24:41.880
tired, they're in some cases so angry that they

01:24:41.880 --> 01:24:43.800
literally can't see the wood for the trees anymore.

01:24:45.710 --> 01:24:49.130
Yeah, ego is the number one killer in business

01:24:49.130 --> 01:24:51.390
and in life. And like we talked about earlier,

01:24:51.670 --> 01:24:55.149
if you are the person in charge and you're leading

01:24:55.149 --> 01:24:58.189
with that ego, it's going to have terrible effects

01:24:58.189 --> 01:25:01.369
for your entire organization. And there's nothing

01:25:01.369 --> 01:25:04.710
that gets better by having a frictional relationship

01:25:04.710 --> 01:25:07.649
with someone. Nothing is going to get solved.

01:25:07.770 --> 01:25:11.029
Nothing is going to get better by that. So the

01:25:11.029 --> 01:25:14.050
number one leadership principle that we teach

01:25:14.050 --> 01:25:17.550
as a company. is relationships. And we teach

01:25:17.550 --> 01:25:21.729
it through this lens of teamwork. And when we

01:25:21.729 --> 01:25:23.869
say teamwork, what we mean is like the entire

01:25:23.869 --> 01:25:28.210
organization. So it's not just my platoon, it's

01:25:28.210 --> 01:25:31.649
all of team five. In actuality, it's all of Naval

01:25:31.649 --> 01:25:35.210
Special Warfare. But if I'm focused on just my

01:25:35.210 --> 01:25:38.229
platoon, And I'm not building relationships with

01:25:38.229 --> 01:25:41.470
team 10 or team seven right across the hall from

01:25:41.470 --> 01:25:44.390
us. Then I'm letting these silos pop up in between

01:25:44.390 --> 01:25:46.869
us. And when there's silos in our organization,

01:25:47.189 --> 01:25:49.789
we're not communicating. We're not sharing best

01:25:49.789 --> 01:25:52.010
practices. I'm not learning from them. They're

01:25:52.010 --> 01:25:53.789
not learning from me. And what usually happens

01:25:53.789 --> 01:25:57.109
is. those egos get involved and we start to compete

01:25:57.109 --> 01:25:59.750
against each other. And we start to look at our

01:25:59.750 --> 01:26:02.890
own teammates, the people that we should be on

01:26:02.890 --> 01:26:04.729
this journey together with, we start to look

01:26:04.729 --> 01:26:07.109
at them as like our competition or a barrier

01:26:07.109 --> 01:26:10.789
to our success somehow. And when you've got leadership

01:26:10.789 --> 01:26:14.710
in the firehouse that can't play nice with the

01:26:14.710 --> 01:26:17.810
union or the city because of their ego, that's

01:26:17.810 --> 01:26:20.550
going to affect every single person. And look,

01:26:20.609 --> 01:26:23.720
everybody... In that, you know, triangle of three

01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:27.699
that we just talked about, they all want the

01:26:27.699 --> 01:26:32.659
same thing. Ideally, at the end, they all want

01:26:32.659 --> 01:26:35.880
the same thing. So if we can focus on the things

01:26:35.880 --> 01:26:38.859
that we're aligned on, then we can start to talk

01:26:38.859 --> 01:26:42.159
about the tactics to get that result in the best

01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:45.369
way. But if we can't focus on the thing that

01:26:45.369 --> 01:26:47.670
we're aligned on, if it now becomes about, well,

01:26:47.710 --> 01:26:50.090
I want it this way because my ego and you want

01:26:50.090 --> 01:26:52.649
it this way because of your ego, then we're never

01:26:52.649 --> 01:26:54.569
going to get aligned on the things that really

01:26:54.569 --> 01:26:58.050
matter. No, I couldn't agree more. Well, I want

01:26:58.050 --> 01:27:00.229
to shift subjects so that we can get to the closing

01:27:00.229 --> 01:27:03.670
questions. Talk to me about, I mean, you mentioned

01:27:03.670 --> 01:27:05.789
in Virginia, you mentioned on a farm, how did

01:27:05.789 --> 01:27:07.649
you find yourself kind of circling around to

01:27:07.649 --> 01:27:10.270
your early life and actually getting into the

01:27:10.270 --> 01:27:13.970
rural? you know, farm upbringing, but also the

01:27:13.970 --> 01:27:18.430
beef industry. Yeah, so I love growing up on

01:27:18.430 --> 01:27:21.510
a farm. Even though it was work, like the freedom

01:27:21.510 --> 01:27:24.789
that it offered me, I really enjoyed it. My wife

01:27:24.789 --> 01:27:27.750
grew up in New Hampshire, and they had, I think,

01:27:27.770 --> 01:27:31.670
two acres, but it backed up into national forest

01:27:31.670 --> 01:27:34.109
land. So it seemed to them like they had a lot

01:27:34.109 --> 01:27:38.470
more land. When we were having kids and raising

01:27:38.470 --> 01:27:41.729
our family in San Diego, we were in Coronado

01:27:41.729 --> 01:27:44.130
for like 10 years. Then we moved to Imperial

01:27:44.130 --> 01:27:46.970
Beach, which is just south of Coronado, and bought

01:27:46.970 --> 01:27:49.369
a place down there. And we enjoyed our time.

01:27:49.689 --> 01:27:52.470
But man, your space is like the size of my office

01:27:52.470 --> 01:27:54.829
that I'm sitting in right now. And that always

01:27:54.829 --> 01:27:58.569
bugged me because I'm used to open spaces. And

01:27:58.569 --> 01:28:02.489
I'm probably what we would call like a... introverted

01:28:02.489 --> 01:28:04.369
extrovert. And what I mean by that is like, I

01:28:04.369 --> 01:28:06.350
like people, but I like to choose when I engage

01:28:06.350 --> 01:28:10.069
with people. So I like space. I like silence.

01:28:10.449 --> 01:28:14.390
I like the ability to, you know, not be able

01:28:14.390 --> 01:28:16.489
to see my neighbor because they live far away,

01:28:16.590 --> 01:28:18.449
but to invite my neighbor over whenever I want

01:28:18.449 --> 01:28:21.449
to invite them over. And my wife kind of felt

01:28:21.449 --> 01:28:23.310
the same way. And we knew that we wanted our

01:28:23.310 --> 01:28:26.149
kids to grow up with that same level of freedom

01:28:26.149 --> 01:28:28.949
that we had. And there's a lot of great lessons,

01:28:29.010 --> 01:28:31.920
as you know. that come from growing up on a farm.

01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:34.680
Like there's responsibility, there's chores that

01:28:34.680 --> 01:28:36.939
they're just not going to have in the city. And

01:28:36.939 --> 01:28:41.100
the place where we moved, my wife's family has

01:28:41.100 --> 01:28:43.380
basically been moving here over the last 10 years.

01:28:43.680 --> 01:28:46.020
So they've got, you know, a set of grandparents

01:28:46.020 --> 01:28:49.640
are here. Aunts and uncles are here. Bunch of

01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:52.140
their cousins are here. So we knew we wanted

01:28:52.140 --> 01:28:54.819
to be near family. We knew we wanted to be back

01:28:54.819 --> 01:28:58.279
on like the rural farm life. And we were just

01:28:58.279 --> 01:29:00.079
fortunate enough to find this kind of beautiful

01:29:00.079 --> 01:29:04.260
farm. And we didn't have cattle growing up. I've

01:29:04.260 --> 01:29:06.180
always loved cattle. I always wanted to raise

01:29:06.180 --> 01:29:09.039
cattle. And now I get to raise cattle with my

01:29:09.039 --> 01:29:12.600
family out here on our farm. I've had Joel Salatin

01:29:12.600 --> 01:29:14.739
on here a few times talking about regenerative

01:29:14.739 --> 01:29:16.659
farming. What's your philosophy on your farm?

01:29:18.350 --> 01:29:21.729
same thing so uh joel's farm is only about two

01:29:21.729 --> 01:29:24.750
hours away from ours and i started reading a

01:29:24.750 --> 01:29:28.069
lot about regenerative ag uh when i was in the

01:29:28.069 --> 01:29:30.050
seal team still because i knew that i wanted

01:29:30.050 --> 01:29:34.090
to do this one day so we have about looks like

01:29:34.090 --> 01:29:37.829
56 acres and when it's grazing season because

01:29:37.829 --> 01:29:40.369
in the winter nothing grows so the cows get put

01:29:40.369 --> 01:29:42.909
in a pasture and we roll out hay for them uh

01:29:42.909 --> 01:29:46.079
every day but In the grazing season, spring,

01:29:46.380 --> 01:29:49.659
summer, and fall, we move our cows every single

01:29:49.659 --> 01:29:52.720
day to a fresh patch of pasture. So they get

01:29:52.720 --> 01:29:55.800
about an acre a day to graze, and then we move

01:29:55.800 --> 01:29:58.079
them every single day. And what that does is

01:29:58.079 --> 01:30:02.899
allows the plant to flourish and not get overgrazed.

01:30:03.180 --> 01:30:06.479
And it's good for the health of the soil. It's

01:30:06.479 --> 01:30:09.020
the best thing for the cattle. We don't treat

01:30:09.020 --> 01:30:12.260
our cattle with any antibiotics or hormones or

01:30:12.260 --> 01:30:14.039
anything like that, because we don't have to,

01:30:14.100 --> 01:30:17.319
because they're acting like cattle were designed

01:30:17.319 --> 01:30:21.319
to act in open air pastures. So we very much

01:30:21.319 --> 01:30:24.779
follow the same kind of philosophy. And I took

01:30:24.779 --> 01:30:28.359
my family and my nieces and nephews down to Polyface

01:30:28.359 --> 01:30:31.279
Farms to kind of see his operation and get a

01:30:31.279 --> 01:30:34.720
tour of how he does things. We had a great conversation

01:30:34.720 --> 01:30:36.720
recently and we're kind of looking back again.

01:30:36.739 --> 01:30:38.659
I had him during COVID as well, but this was

01:30:38.659 --> 01:30:41.100
post -COVID. And, you know, because what I'd

01:30:41.100 --> 01:30:44.340
said is if there was ever an event in modern

01:30:44.340 --> 01:30:47.399
history that should reframe, you know, what we

01:30:47.399 --> 01:30:49.970
eat, how we move in America. should have been

01:30:49.970 --> 01:30:53.029
the pandemic. And if you wrote down how to make

01:30:53.029 --> 01:30:55.350
people even more susceptible to the virus and

01:30:55.350 --> 01:30:57.430
more likely to die, it was exactly what everyone

01:30:57.430 --> 01:30:59.810
said. Don't see your family, don't see your friends,

01:30:59.930 --> 01:31:02.369
don't see the sunshine, don't see nature, watch

01:31:02.369 --> 01:31:05.029
Tiger King, order fast food and alcohol to be

01:31:05.029 --> 01:31:07.289
delivered. That's it. Couldn't have been worse.

01:31:07.510 --> 01:31:10.750
And so coming out of this, what we should have

01:31:10.750 --> 01:31:13.449
seen was real food served in schools like we

01:31:13.449 --> 01:31:17.250
used to, PE programs bolstered, local farmers

01:31:17.250 --> 01:31:21.390
given... incentives to grow clean food locally,

01:31:21.550 --> 01:31:23.289
because we saw that massive bottleneck in the

01:31:23.289 --> 01:31:29.170
abattoirs. With where you are now, what is your

01:31:29.170 --> 01:31:32.630
perspective, your after action report on how

01:31:32.630 --> 01:31:36.210
COVID was handled? And then what is your view

01:31:36.210 --> 01:31:38.829
on where we should be as far as local farming

01:31:38.829 --> 01:31:42.590
and the type of farming these days? Yeah, I don't

01:31:42.590 --> 01:31:43.909
know that it could have been handled much worse.

01:31:44.010 --> 01:31:46.630
It goes back to that conversation we talked about,

01:31:46.649 --> 01:31:51.220
about leaders. And unfortunately, you know, I'm

01:31:51.220 --> 01:31:53.260
not in those people's heads. I don't know what

01:31:53.260 --> 01:31:55.380
their intent was, but all we can judge is their

01:31:55.380 --> 01:31:57.640
actions and they were the wrong actions. And

01:31:57.640 --> 01:32:00.039
anyone that tries to claim that they weren't

01:32:00.039 --> 01:32:02.479
now is just ignoring all the data that we have

01:32:02.479 --> 01:32:07.060
now in hindsight. The thing that I think was

01:32:07.060 --> 01:32:09.659
the most important thing that came out of the

01:32:09.659 --> 01:32:14.119
pandemic was this realization that the medical

01:32:14.119 --> 01:32:19.319
establishment, the government. And some of the

01:32:19.319 --> 01:32:24.840
research science is not infallible. And a matter

01:32:24.840 --> 01:32:27.619
of fact, we're always learning. New things are

01:32:27.619 --> 01:32:31.119
always being developed. And at times, those establishments

01:32:31.119 --> 01:32:35.060
have made the absolute wrong decisions. Like

01:32:35.060 --> 01:32:37.739
sugar at one point in time was really good for

01:32:37.739 --> 01:32:40.159
you. Smoking cigarettes at one point in time.

01:32:40.489 --> 01:32:42.970
was really good for you, according to science.

01:32:43.090 --> 01:32:46.250
The food pyramid that is absolute garbage that

01:32:46.250 --> 01:32:49.590
just got flipped on its head was designed by

01:32:49.590 --> 01:32:53.810
the same people. So there's this, you know, like

01:32:53.810 --> 01:32:56.050
when you look at agriculture, take that for example.

01:32:56.229 --> 01:32:58.329
I mean, I'm sure you remember like the mad cow

01:32:58.329 --> 01:33:03.130
epidemic back in like 2001. I was touring Europe.

01:33:03.470 --> 01:33:05.770
with two of my friends after we graduated uh

01:33:05.770 --> 01:33:08.449
high school we saved up money and we went and

01:33:08.449 --> 01:33:11.350
toured around europe for a month after high school

01:33:11.350 --> 01:33:14.250
and when we were in england like we couldn't

01:33:14.250 --> 01:33:17.029
have beef because of mad cow the reason that

01:33:17.029 --> 01:33:21.670
mad cow became an issue was because the the Ag

01:33:21.670 --> 01:33:24.630
industry said it was a really good idea to grind

01:33:24.630 --> 01:33:27.430
up your dead animals and feed them to your cattle

01:33:27.430 --> 01:33:30.130
because it's good protein for them. And surprise,

01:33:30.229 --> 01:33:33.289
surprise, that caused some issues. So when you

01:33:33.289 --> 01:33:35.630
look at like, hey, why are all of our cattle

01:33:35.630 --> 01:33:37.810
treated with hormones? It's because the majority

01:33:37.810 --> 01:33:42.369
of the commercial ag space, and I'm not hating

01:33:42.369 --> 01:33:45.130
on the farmers that are doing this because they

01:33:45.130 --> 01:33:47.529
have to fit in this system that's been built

01:33:47.529 --> 01:33:50.569
for them now. They have to push them full of

01:33:50.569 --> 01:33:53.590
hormones to get them to grow fast so that they

01:33:53.590 --> 01:33:55.510
can make a profit off of them. Because if they

01:33:55.510 --> 01:33:58.350
don't do that, they carry the cow for too long

01:33:58.350 --> 01:34:00.210
and they can't make a dollar off of them and

01:34:00.210 --> 01:34:02.859
they'll go broke. Why do they have to inoculate

01:34:02.859 --> 01:34:05.060
them with antibiotics? Because they're living

01:34:05.060 --> 01:34:08.600
on top of each other in these big feedlots. Some

01:34:08.600 --> 01:34:11.199
of them are not even open air and they're developing

01:34:11.199 --> 01:34:14.619
all of these different issues because they're

01:34:14.619 --> 01:34:17.520
not allowed to thrive out in open pasture. So

01:34:17.520 --> 01:34:19.439
we have to inoculate them with all these different

01:34:19.439 --> 01:34:22.779
antibiotics to keep them from getting sick. So

01:34:22.779 --> 01:34:26.119
I think a positive that came from COVID was just

01:34:26.119 --> 01:34:29.989
a spotlight on one. There's no such thing as

01:34:29.989 --> 01:34:32.409
someone who's infallible. We're learning things.

01:34:32.550 --> 01:34:34.470
And I think it shined a spotlight on the fact

01:34:34.470 --> 01:34:36.630
that we've been doing things the wrong way for

01:34:36.630 --> 01:34:40.909
quite a long time. What is your hope as far as

01:34:40.909 --> 01:34:46.550
supporting local farmers once more? The infrastructure

01:34:46.550 --> 01:34:50.670
right now to support local farmers should, in

01:34:50.670 --> 01:34:53.829
theory, be the best it's probably ever been because

01:34:53.829 --> 01:34:57.770
we have the internet. And it should be easy for

01:34:57.770 --> 01:35:01.189
someone to connect with a local farmer via the

01:35:01.189 --> 01:35:04.609
Internet. The issue is farmers love to farm.

01:35:04.689 --> 01:35:06.550
You know what farmers don't love to do? Create

01:35:06.550 --> 01:35:10.109
websites and market their goods and manage a

01:35:10.109 --> 01:35:12.850
website. And like, hey, I don't blame them because

01:35:12.850 --> 01:35:15.090
it's freaking terrible now that I have to do

01:35:15.090 --> 01:35:19.640
it. It used to be that people would get their

01:35:19.640 --> 01:35:22.039
beef from their neighbor or from their local

01:35:22.039 --> 01:35:24.560
butcher who was sourcing it from farms that are

01:35:24.560 --> 01:35:27.439
around them. And then we had this big push, lots

01:35:27.439 --> 01:35:30.239
of urban development, people moving to the cities.

01:35:30.279 --> 01:35:31.859
And then it was kind of like, well, you don't

01:35:31.859 --> 01:35:35.060
know where your food is coming from. The internet

01:35:35.060 --> 01:35:37.600
should be the big equalizer to those things because,

01:35:37.640 --> 01:35:41.000
James, if you have a farm, you should be able,

01:35:41.060 --> 01:35:45.000
if you want to, to build a website and market

01:35:45.000 --> 01:35:48.210
that. to your neighbors market that to the people

01:35:48.210 --> 01:35:50.689
that live in the town next to you market that

01:35:50.689 --> 01:35:52.470
to the people that might live in your nearest

01:35:52.470 --> 01:35:56.869
city and draw them in to buy the produce and

01:35:56.869 --> 01:36:00.869
the meat that you're producing so the the i think

01:36:00.869 --> 01:36:04.449
the infrastructure is there but it just comes

01:36:04.449 --> 01:36:07.810
down to like what farmers want to focus on and

01:36:07.810 --> 01:36:09.569
what they're good at and what they're not good

01:36:09.569 --> 01:36:13.529
at if each farm magically had the ability to

01:36:13.529 --> 01:36:16.260
to market their goods I don't think there would

01:36:16.260 --> 01:36:19.359
be a problem anymore because who living in a

01:36:19.359 --> 01:36:21.819
city or an urban environment doesn't want to

01:36:21.819 --> 01:36:25.020
know that their cow was treated humanely, that

01:36:25.020 --> 01:36:27.800
nothing artificial is in their beef, and shake

01:36:27.800 --> 01:36:30.560
the hand, whether in real life or digitally,

01:36:30.819 --> 01:36:33.039
of the person who's putting their heart and soul

01:36:33.039 --> 01:36:36.039
into that thing that you're about to consume.

01:36:37.100 --> 01:36:39.659
One of my favorite books that Joel wrote was

01:36:39.659 --> 01:36:42.770
Everything I Do is Illegal. And he talked about,

01:36:42.949 --> 01:36:46.590
again, the barriers against local farmers or

01:36:46.590 --> 01:36:48.689
even people that are just cooking out of their

01:36:48.689 --> 01:36:50.569
kitchen and be able to sell it to their neighbors.

01:36:50.970 --> 01:36:54.069
The barriers that we have for these small local

01:36:54.069 --> 01:36:57.310
farms that obviously do support in these mega

01:36:57.310 --> 01:37:00.170
farms and these monocrops, etc. So what are some

01:37:00.170 --> 01:37:03.069
of the challenges for an independent farm? And

01:37:03.069 --> 01:37:04.949
again, what do we need to change for that to

01:37:04.949 --> 01:37:07.409
be easier for people to be able to provide to

01:37:07.409 --> 01:37:12.189
their neighbors? Too much bureaucracy that's

01:37:12.189 --> 01:37:16.710
involved in the day -to -day operation of a farm

01:37:16.710 --> 01:37:19.510
or a ranch being able to sell their goods to

01:37:19.510 --> 01:37:23.890
a consumer. So again, you go back to intent versus

01:37:23.890 --> 01:37:27.970
the outcome. I think the intent originally, when

01:37:27.970 --> 01:37:31.289
those things were put in place, was to protect

01:37:31.289 --> 01:37:34.029
the consumer, to make sure that the farmer was

01:37:34.029 --> 01:37:36.449
doing the things that they needed to do to ensure

01:37:36.449 --> 01:37:38.529
that their product was safe for consumption.

01:37:39.470 --> 01:37:42.510
I think the intent of that is probably pretty

01:37:42.510 --> 01:37:44.970
noble, but I think the way that it's been executed

01:37:44.970 --> 01:37:48.710
has done nothing but put barriers between a farmer

01:37:48.710 --> 01:37:52.189
or a rancher being able to actually sell their

01:37:52.189 --> 01:37:55.350
goods and a consumer that wants those goods to

01:37:55.350 --> 01:37:57.970
be able to purchase those goods. I mean, you

01:37:57.970 --> 01:38:02.489
know, a perfect example is raw milk. You know,

01:38:02.489 --> 01:38:07.659
we have a neighbor who has a Jersey cow. And

01:38:07.659 --> 01:38:10.899
they're very nice and they give us raw milk for

01:38:10.899 --> 01:38:13.760
free. I can't buy that raw milk for them because

01:38:13.760 --> 01:38:16.239
it's illegal to buy that raw milk for them. Now,

01:38:16.380 --> 01:38:18.840
if that neighbor, because of bureaucracy, puts

01:38:18.840 --> 01:38:22.180
for pet consumption only and I buy it for my

01:38:22.180 --> 01:38:25.520
labradoodle, that's our farm guard dog. Not really.

01:38:25.600 --> 01:38:29.300
He's useless on the farm. And I just happen to

01:38:29.300 --> 01:38:31.859
take a sip of it. Well, then it's legal. But

01:38:31.859 --> 01:38:35.029
if he sells it for human consumption. He can

01:38:35.029 --> 01:38:38.909
face fines or potentially even go to jail. The

01:38:38.909 --> 01:38:41.670
number of people that have issues from raw milk,

01:38:41.710 --> 01:38:46.090
contamination in raw milk, is like minuscule,

01:38:46.149 --> 01:38:50.909
0 .001%. The number of issues that come from

01:38:50.909 --> 01:38:55.340
massive at -scale dairy operations. is way more

01:38:55.340 --> 01:38:58.439
than that. I mean, how many E. coli recalls have

01:38:58.439 --> 01:39:01.159
there been for tainted beef, tainted chicken,

01:39:01.340 --> 01:39:04.739
tainted pork off of commercial shelves in your

01:39:04.739 --> 01:39:06.560
grocery store? You know where that doesn't happen?

01:39:06.779 --> 01:39:10.260
At a farm where the animal is raised in an open

01:39:10.260 --> 01:39:13.100
air environment or at an abattoir or a local

01:39:13.100 --> 01:39:17.180
butcher who has really good handling practices

01:39:17.180 --> 01:39:20.939
and is not allowing that beef to sit and get

01:39:20.939 --> 01:39:24.119
shipped across the country. unfrozen for this

01:39:24.119 --> 01:39:26.079
long period of time. But like, no, it's okay

01:39:26.079 --> 01:39:28.920
for that big ad company to do that and have all

01:39:28.920 --> 01:39:31.619
these issues and recalls. But it's not okay for

01:39:31.619 --> 01:39:34.500
Farmer John to take that same risk, even though

01:39:34.500 --> 01:39:37.220
it's way, way, way less of a risk. So I think

01:39:37.220 --> 01:39:38.859
the only thing that you can do is just strip

01:39:38.859 --> 01:39:41.819
away some of the bureaucracy. Joe Salatin has

01:39:41.819 --> 01:39:44.520
a role. in this administration, I don't know

01:39:44.520 --> 01:39:46.819
if he still has it or not, in hopefully breaking

01:39:46.819 --> 01:39:50.880
some of that down. You know, RFK with Make America

01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:53.340
Healthy Again push, I know he's trying to do

01:39:53.340 --> 01:39:56.000
some of those things, which I applaud, but it's

01:39:56.000 --> 01:39:58.859
a big bureaucracy, and it's not going to be dismantled

01:39:58.859 --> 01:40:01.520
overnight. Well, I mean, I thought RFK was great

01:40:01.520 --> 01:40:04.750
prior to the election. And again, I don't know

01:40:04.750 --> 01:40:06.609
what's happening behind the scenes, but again,

01:40:06.869 --> 01:40:09.590
you're talking about intent versus action. If

01:40:09.590 --> 01:40:11.750
after a year, all you've done is get rid of food

01:40:11.750 --> 01:40:13.930
dyes and turn a pyramid upside down, I'd say

01:40:13.930 --> 01:40:15.930
that's a pretty piss poor production for a year

01:40:15.930 --> 01:40:18.350
in the most powerful position. So something's

01:40:18.350 --> 01:40:19.949
going on back there that's certainly holding

01:40:19.949 --> 01:40:22.869
them back. Yeah, I think everyone that gets a

01:40:22.869 --> 01:40:25.489
peek behind the curtain of any mechanism of government

01:40:25.489 --> 01:40:30.649
goes, oh my goodness, this is way more complex

01:40:30.649 --> 01:40:34.350
than I thought. and way more difficult to dismantle

01:40:34.350 --> 01:40:40.829
not because of necessarily the policy itself

01:40:40.829 --> 01:40:43.409
but because of the entrenched positions from

01:40:43.409 --> 01:40:45.470
a lot of individuals that are involved in those

01:40:45.470 --> 01:40:49.489
policies like there's a lot of individuals that

01:40:49.489 --> 01:40:51.229
don't want people i shouldn't say individuals

01:40:51.229 --> 01:40:53.810
there's a lot of entities that don't want people

01:40:53.810 --> 01:40:56.760
to be able to buy milk from their neighbor And

01:40:56.760 --> 01:40:59.720
don't want people to be able to go and purchase

01:40:59.720 --> 01:41:03.579
farm -raised cattle from their neighbor because

01:41:03.579 --> 01:41:05.840
they want to push them to a shelf where their

01:41:05.840 --> 01:41:08.399
product is. Well, it's as we said before with

01:41:08.399 --> 01:41:10.359
the military -industrial complex, there's a lot

01:41:10.359 --> 01:41:13.119
of people that don't want Americans to be healthy

01:41:13.119 --> 01:41:15.060
because they make meds, they make wheelchairs,

01:41:15.079 --> 01:41:17.180
they make implants. There's a lot of people that

01:41:17.180 --> 01:41:19.180
don't want peace because they make weapons and

01:41:19.180 --> 01:41:21.739
they make MREs and they make uniforms. So this

01:41:21.739 --> 01:41:25.560
goes back to that checks and balances. I really

01:41:25.560 --> 01:41:28.819
feel like if we literally just changed everything

01:41:28.819 --> 01:41:32.000
back to 100 years ago, the way we eat, the way

01:41:32.000 --> 01:41:33.779
we move, even as we talked about earlier, the

01:41:33.779 --> 01:41:37.140
way we learn, you would solve 90 % of our problems

01:41:37.140 --> 01:41:39.520
right there and then. But that involves empowering

01:41:39.520 --> 01:41:43.460
local farmers to grow and to raise just like

01:41:43.460 --> 01:41:46.640
they used to and have local. you know, butchers

01:41:46.640 --> 01:41:48.600
and bakers and all these things, which I think

01:41:48.600 --> 01:41:50.899
we're craving as well. I think this mega store

01:41:50.899 --> 01:41:54.119
has just got so out of whack and the death of

01:41:54.119 --> 01:41:56.239
the American mall, I think, is because of that.

01:41:56.340 --> 01:41:58.739
People just don't want to be going in and mindlessly,

01:41:58.760 --> 01:42:01.399
you know, rummaging through coat racks and shelves

01:42:01.399 --> 01:42:03.640
now. They want to interact. They want to sit

01:42:03.640 --> 01:42:05.300
down. They want to break bread. They want to,

01:42:05.300 --> 01:42:07.760
you know, share a drink, whatever it is. So I

01:42:07.760 --> 01:42:10.340
hope that we're going to start seeing this full

01:42:10.340 --> 01:42:14.760
circle to that again. Because a few people making

01:42:14.760 --> 01:42:17.180
all the money, I know the monopoly was kind of

01:42:17.180 --> 01:42:20.920
worshipped in American business for a long time,

01:42:21.000 --> 01:42:23.739
but that's other people's money that you're accumulating.

01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:27.020
We don't all need to own 15 Ferraris. We can

01:42:27.020 --> 01:42:30.579
all just cohabit in villages and towns and have

01:42:30.579 --> 01:42:32.960
food local and the air is clean and the water

01:42:32.960 --> 01:42:36.979
is clean. And it's not a unicorn with rainbows

01:42:36.979 --> 01:42:38.560
coming out of its ass. It's just literally how

01:42:38.560 --> 01:42:42.699
we lived 80, 100 years ago. Yeah, and a piece

01:42:42.699 --> 01:42:45.460
of that too is with the medical profession, like

01:42:45.460 --> 01:42:48.479
an increased focus on the importance of nutrition

01:42:48.479 --> 01:42:51.840
because they get next to none in medical school

01:42:51.840 --> 01:42:53.760
right now. And it's almost like, well, the first

01:42:53.760 --> 01:42:55.560
thing that I think you should be asking someone

01:42:55.560 --> 01:42:59.680
when they come in with a chronic illness is let's

01:42:59.680 --> 01:43:01.600
look at what you're putting into your body. And

01:43:01.600 --> 01:43:03.199
unfortunately now you have to also look at like

01:43:03.199 --> 01:43:05.140
what's in the things that you're putting in your

01:43:05.140 --> 01:43:10.420
body. All of our wheat is sprayed with... um,

01:43:10.420 --> 01:43:13.640
pesticides. So whether you're getting that wheat

01:43:13.640 --> 01:43:18.260
in your bread or, um, in cereal or whatever the

01:43:18.260 --> 01:43:20.180
heck now, it's not just like, well, you're having

01:43:20.180 --> 01:43:23.479
some wheat now it's well, what's that grain been

01:43:23.479 --> 01:43:25.560
sprayed with that your body and some people's

01:43:25.560 --> 01:43:28.880
bodies react very differently to it. So I hope

01:43:28.880 --> 01:43:30.840
we can go back there and I hope we can get an

01:43:30.840 --> 01:43:34.189
increased. focus on the importance of nutrition

01:43:34.189 --> 01:43:37.970
and start that cycle really young uh like you

01:43:37.970 --> 01:43:40.050
said earlier you know start in the school system

01:43:40.050 --> 01:43:42.649
where you can teach people what a real healthy

01:43:42.649 --> 01:43:46.850
meal actually looks like absolutely going back

01:43:46.850 --> 01:43:48.609
to what you're talking about you know what can

01:43:48.609 --> 01:43:50.529
we control and this is you've already seen this

01:43:50.529 --> 01:43:52.390
happen a little bit what we can control is what

01:43:52.390 --> 01:43:54.960
we spend you know, what we actually purchase.

01:43:55.140 --> 01:43:57.479
And, you know, now a lot of, a lot of supermarkets

01:43:57.479 --> 01:43:59.979
don't even have like a health food section. Now

01:43:59.979 --> 01:44:02.779
they have health food or healthier food throughout

01:44:02.779 --> 01:44:05.880
the entire grocery store. So I think this is

01:44:05.880 --> 01:44:07.979
it. If people are really empowered to understand

01:44:07.979 --> 01:44:10.279
the damage that some of this commercial food

01:44:10.279 --> 01:44:12.560
is doing to us. And then obviously the, again,

01:44:12.600 --> 01:44:15.880
downstream costs, your, your disease, not only

01:44:15.880 --> 01:44:20.649
for your wallet, but also your longevity. If

01:44:20.649 --> 01:44:23.109
America really started demanding the healthier

01:44:23.109 --> 01:44:26.350
food, the local food, you would see a shift again.

01:44:26.510 --> 01:44:29.130
Because as you said, of course, these corporations,

01:44:29.449 --> 01:44:30.789
they don't want you to be doing that. They want

01:44:30.789 --> 01:44:33.829
you to buy their cereal or their dairy or whatever

01:44:33.829 --> 01:44:37.850
it is. But we all have the power to just change

01:44:37.850 --> 01:44:41.310
where we buy and also just break that myth that

01:44:41.310 --> 01:44:43.930
healthy food is expensive because it's not. Like

01:44:43.930 --> 01:44:45.729
fast food is getting more and more expensive

01:44:45.729 --> 01:44:48.430
now. So there's never been a better time to actually

01:44:48.430 --> 01:44:51.210
lean into local produce, local meat and actually

01:44:51.210 --> 01:44:54.890
save money at the same time. And it is one of

01:44:54.890 --> 01:44:57.470
the, I think, beauties of capitalism, which is

01:44:57.470 --> 01:45:00.010
like the businesses will go where the money is

01:45:00.010 --> 01:45:03.470
and the money is telling them to go. So if all

01:45:03.470 --> 01:45:06.149
of a sudden there is a demand for a local produce.

01:45:06.960 --> 01:45:09.420
A lot of those grocery stores, they'll build

01:45:09.420 --> 01:45:12.140
relationships with local producers and they'll

01:45:12.140 --> 01:45:14.119
put them in there if that's what people are demanding.

01:45:14.340 --> 01:45:16.420
If people aren't demanding that, then why would

01:45:16.420 --> 01:45:19.119
they go out of their way and spend millions or

01:45:19.119 --> 01:45:21.300
hundreds of millions of dollars to revamp the

01:45:21.300 --> 01:45:24.159
way that they do business? So we all get a vote

01:45:24.159 --> 01:45:26.619
with our dollar. And at the end of the day, what

01:45:26.619 --> 01:45:29.260
we've seen again and again and again in America

01:45:29.260 --> 01:45:32.920
is that businesses will go where. the consumer

01:45:32.920 --> 01:45:35.840
the american public are willing to spend their

01:45:35.840 --> 01:45:39.039
dollars and if that's on healthy local food then

01:45:39.039 --> 01:45:42.279
there will be avenues for people to get that

01:45:42.279 --> 01:45:44.180
regardless of where they live because not everybody

01:45:44.180 --> 01:45:47.880
can live next to a farmer or rancher absolutely

01:45:47.880 --> 01:45:50.539
well i want to throw some closing questions at

01:45:50.539 --> 01:45:53.439
you before i let you go the first one i love

01:45:53.439 --> 01:45:55.899
to ask is there a book or are there books that

01:45:55.899 --> 01:45:58.239
you love to recommend it can be related to our

01:45:58.239 --> 01:46:02.140
discussion today or completely unrelated I love

01:46:02.140 --> 01:46:05.840
the book Legacy, which is written by a guy that

01:46:05.840 --> 01:46:07.899
I've come to know. And I actually brought him

01:46:07.899 --> 01:46:12.619
out to talk to NSW, a guy named James Kerr. And

01:46:12.619 --> 01:46:17.319
Legacy is a profile of the All Blacks rugby team.

01:46:17.619 --> 01:46:21.600
And the profile is really what makes them the

01:46:21.600 --> 01:46:25.500
team that they are. Because historically, they're

01:46:25.500 --> 01:46:28.340
the winningest sports team in the history of

01:46:28.340 --> 01:46:33.229
sports across any sport. And it's a rugby team

01:46:33.229 --> 01:46:35.890
from a very small island, New Zealand, compared

01:46:35.890 --> 01:46:38.789
to its neighbors and the other nations that compete

01:46:38.789 --> 01:46:42.310
in rugby. So James went down there with no agenda

01:46:42.310 --> 01:46:44.890
outside of just let's try to figure out why they're

01:46:44.890 --> 01:46:49.289
so good. Is it the coaching? Is it, you know,

01:46:49.289 --> 01:46:51.970
the talent pool they're pulling from? And those

01:46:51.970 --> 01:46:53.810
things played a part in it. But what he really

01:46:53.810 --> 01:46:59.529
found was the thing that makes the All Blacks

01:46:59.529 --> 01:47:03.380
so good. is there's more tied to that black jersey

01:47:03.380 --> 01:47:07.880
than just their desire to win. In the minds of

01:47:07.880 --> 01:47:09.939
everyone that's ever put that black jersey on,

01:47:10.039 --> 01:47:12.220
they're carrying the hopes and dreams of a nation.

01:47:12.359 --> 01:47:14.880
And because of that, the culture that they keep

01:47:14.880 --> 01:47:17.600
and the standard that they keep inside of their

01:47:17.600 --> 01:47:21.699
own ranks is the greatest profile I've ever seen

01:47:21.699 --> 01:47:25.020
in how to build and maintain a culture. So if

01:47:25.020 --> 01:47:27.729
you're... a leader who's like, hey, how do I

01:47:27.729 --> 01:47:29.909
improve the culture of my organization? Or how

01:47:29.909 --> 01:47:33.949
do I really form up a culture inside my organization?

01:47:34.170 --> 01:47:36.170
Or if you're a contributing member of a team

01:47:36.170 --> 01:47:39.109
that's like, hey, you know, how do I get people

01:47:39.109 --> 01:47:41.510
on board with this direction that I want to go?

01:47:41.770 --> 01:47:44.890
I would highly recommend that they take a look

01:47:44.890 --> 01:47:48.649
at that book because it's the best study on culture

01:47:48.649 --> 01:47:52.390
that I've ever read. I also think that book,

01:47:52.529 --> 01:47:55.439
The General, The Generals is a great book to

01:47:55.439 --> 01:47:59.779
read because it's also, as well as being, you

01:47:59.779 --> 01:48:02.960
know, a tale of like what happened to the American

01:48:02.960 --> 01:48:05.579
generalship, it's also a cautionary tale of the

01:48:05.579 --> 01:48:08.100
factors that led up to that. And I think it's

01:48:08.100 --> 01:48:10.840
very easy for other industries to fall inside

01:48:10.840 --> 01:48:15.680
of that same kind of pitfall if they're not careful.

01:48:16.020 --> 01:48:20.779
Those would be two off the bat. If you haven't

01:48:20.779 --> 01:48:23.399
read The Count of Monte Cristo. I'm just going

01:48:23.399 --> 01:48:25.000
to throw a pitch out there. It's my favorite

01:48:25.000 --> 01:48:27.859
book of all time because it deals with a lot

01:48:27.859 --> 01:48:32.039
of very deep things about what it means to be

01:48:32.039 --> 01:48:34.979
a human through highs and lows. So I'm going

01:48:34.979 --> 01:48:38.819
to throw that in there as a read as well, even

01:48:38.819 --> 01:48:43.260
though it's not a real tale. It's funny, you're

01:48:43.260 --> 01:48:45.039
not the first person that's mentioned that book

01:48:45.039 --> 01:48:47.520
as well. So very interesting. I'm going to have

01:48:47.520 --> 01:48:50.600
to read it then. What about films, documentaries,

01:48:50.779 --> 01:48:55.689
or movies? Okay. let's see films i have to break

01:48:55.689 --> 01:48:58.550
it up and man i have to i could spend probably

01:48:58.550 --> 01:49:00.090
like another two hours on this but i have to

01:49:00.090 --> 01:49:02.689
break it up into like comedies and then like

01:49:02.689 --> 01:49:04.789
serious movies that you can actually learn something

01:49:04.789 --> 01:49:09.909
from um i would say serious movies that you can

01:49:09.909 --> 01:49:12.510
actually learn something from you'd be pretty

01:49:12.510 --> 01:49:15.390
hard pressed i think to top the movie gladiator

01:49:15.390 --> 01:49:18.810
and what that movie is really all about and the

01:49:18.810 --> 01:49:22.770
profile of uh maximus inside that movie. And

01:49:22.770 --> 01:49:24.909
I think if you're looking at like the archetype

01:49:24.909 --> 01:49:32.750
of a servant and archetype of a well -balanced

01:49:32.750 --> 01:49:36.850
man, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone

01:49:36.850 --> 01:49:41.710
better than Maximus for everything that he goes

01:49:41.710 --> 01:49:44.859
through. Rising to the generalship. being Marcus

01:49:44.859 --> 01:49:47.199
Aurelius' right -hand man, not wanting to take

01:49:47.199 --> 01:49:50.619
the position that Marcus wants him to give, his

01:49:50.619 --> 01:49:54.340
loyalty to his wife and his kids, his ability

01:49:54.340 --> 01:49:57.380
to rise back up through the ranks, all of those

01:49:57.380 --> 01:50:02.460
things, pretty hard -pressed. Man, what else?

01:50:03.579 --> 01:50:06.060
Last of the Mohicans, same thing. I mean, if

01:50:06.060 --> 01:50:08.479
you're a young man looking for a good role model,

01:50:08.619 --> 01:50:12.380
it's right there in that movie. Either one of

01:50:12.380 --> 01:50:14.680
those people I think would be a good archetype

01:50:14.680 --> 01:50:17.840
for you to struggle towards. TV shows, I don't

01:50:17.840 --> 01:50:20.960
watch a lot of TV, and I think it's mainly because

01:50:20.960 --> 01:50:24.560
TV has just turned into crap. I would say the

01:50:24.560 --> 01:50:27.340
same thing with modern movies. Everything is

01:50:27.340 --> 01:50:30.119
deconstructed. There's no such thing as a hero

01:50:30.119 --> 01:50:33.760
anymore. Everybody has to have a dark, entangled

01:50:33.760 --> 01:50:37.340
past, and that's just absolute bullcrap. I served

01:50:37.340 --> 01:50:40.899
with some of the best people on the planet. And

01:50:40.899 --> 01:50:43.640
maybe some of them came from backgrounds that

01:50:43.640 --> 01:50:46.920
they had to reform themselves, but some of them

01:50:46.920 --> 01:50:50.880
were just amazing human beings that were doing

01:50:50.880 --> 01:50:53.140
their best to serve their nation. So this idea

01:50:53.140 --> 01:50:56.840
that there's no such thing as a hero and we have

01:50:56.840 --> 01:50:59.680
to try to deconstruct all of these existing heroes

01:50:59.680 --> 01:51:02.819
that we already have, I think is absolute garbage

01:51:02.819 --> 01:51:07.039
and damaging. And I'm seeing a trend now where...

01:51:07.439 --> 01:51:09.779
the archetype of the hero is coming back. And

01:51:09.779 --> 01:51:12.979
I think that's very important for young men and

01:51:12.979 --> 01:51:16.399
young women to be able to see that mythos that

01:51:16.399 --> 01:51:18.840
has been part of Western civilization, this myth

01:51:18.840 --> 01:51:22.800
of the noble hero. And in some perspective, be

01:51:22.800 --> 01:51:25.619
able to see themselves in that myth or be able

01:51:25.619 --> 01:51:29.029
to see themselves striving to become. a part

01:51:29.029 --> 01:51:30.489
of that myth, I think it's really important.

01:51:30.710 --> 01:51:34.250
And I think it's been missing deliberately from

01:51:34.250 --> 01:51:37.210
movies and TVs over about the past 10 to 15 years.

01:51:39.149 --> 01:51:42.270
I'm working on creating a TV show from my latest

01:51:42.270 --> 01:51:45.739
book. And it's funny that there's a generational

01:51:45.739 --> 01:51:48.039
trauma element to it. But the whole takeaway

01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:51.020
is the hero's journey and post -traumatic. But,

01:51:51.100 --> 01:51:53.359
you know, that doesn't have to be, you know,

01:51:53.359 --> 01:51:55.920
something that breaks you down. If it's addressed

01:51:55.920 --> 01:51:58.119
and worked through, just like an enemy would

01:51:58.119 --> 01:52:00.399
be, that then you have scars that actually are

01:52:00.399 --> 01:52:02.079
making you stronger. Because I think there is

01:52:02.079 --> 01:52:04.600
an opportunity to have both of those. But, yeah,

01:52:04.640 --> 01:52:08.420
even there's a film, Asphalt City, that portrayed

01:52:08.420 --> 01:52:12.050
FDNY paramedics. And it was dark and depressing

01:52:12.050 --> 01:52:15.390
and the ending sucked. There was no hope whatsoever.

01:52:15.630 --> 01:52:17.489
I'm like, what the hell? We're not. But this

01:52:17.489 --> 01:52:19.649
is how we're portrayed. Either a bunch of buffoons

01:52:19.649 --> 01:52:21.630
that, you know, running around, tripping over

01:52:21.630 --> 01:52:24.029
each other. Or like you said, you know, they're

01:52:24.029 --> 01:52:25.750
all like a lot of our veteran stories, too. They're

01:52:25.750 --> 01:52:28.069
going to stick a gun in the mouth the end, you

01:52:28.069 --> 01:52:30.270
know, but struggles. That's a real human thing.

01:52:30.409 --> 01:52:32.350
But what you do with those struggles, that's

01:52:32.350 --> 01:52:34.689
what we need to really be storytelling. Yeah.

01:52:34.770 --> 01:52:37.340
And if you look at. You know, the golden age

01:52:37.340 --> 01:52:39.439
of Hollywood, if you will. And my family does.

01:52:39.800 --> 01:52:41.800
We don't have a TV in the house. The only TV

01:52:41.800 --> 01:52:44.180
we have is in our pole barn right behind me.

01:52:44.300 --> 01:52:46.579
So it's like a very deliberate thing if we want

01:52:46.579 --> 01:52:49.100
to watch something as a family. And we have our

01:52:49.100 --> 01:52:50.920
Friday night movie night where we get a bunch

01:52:50.920 --> 01:52:53.539
of pizza and watch a movie. And we watch, you

01:52:53.539 --> 01:52:55.239
know, some newer stuff that's kid appropriate.

01:52:55.319 --> 01:52:57.880
But we I love watching the classics with my with

01:52:57.880 --> 01:53:00.819
my kids. And you like to kill a mockingbird.

01:53:01.210 --> 01:53:04.229
you're not going to get a better example of someone

01:53:04.229 --> 01:53:07.069
doing the right thing in the face of tremendous

01:53:07.069 --> 01:53:09.989
pressure to not do the right thing. Mr. Smith

01:53:09.989 --> 01:53:12.949
goes to Washington, this small town guy that's

01:53:12.949 --> 01:53:15.270
willing to go and stick his neck out in Washington

01:53:15.270 --> 01:53:18.430
to try to do the best that he can for the American

01:53:18.430 --> 01:53:21.029
people. And all of these movies have this common

01:53:21.029 --> 01:53:25.970
theme of the power of one person to make a difference.

01:53:26.170 --> 01:53:29.760
And it's true. There is a huge power in someone

01:53:29.760 --> 01:53:33.420
that just decides to do the right thing and decides

01:53:33.420 --> 01:53:35.619
to struggle against the things that they need

01:53:35.619 --> 01:53:39.500
to struggle with. Absolutely. Well, speaking

01:53:39.500 --> 01:53:42.079
of amazing people, is there a person that you'd

01:53:42.079 --> 01:53:44.479
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest

01:53:44.479 --> 01:53:47.279
to speak to the first responders, military and

01:53:47.279 --> 01:53:49.979
associated professions of the world? Yeah, that

01:53:49.979 --> 01:53:51.800
platoon chief that I was talking about, Dave

01:53:51.800 --> 01:53:56.060
Hanson. Absolutely. One of my best friends still

01:53:56.060 --> 01:53:59.689
to this day. the best seal that I've ever seen

01:53:59.689 --> 01:54:03.310
in my entire life. And one of, if not the best

01:54:03.310 --> 01:54:05.829
men I've ever met in my entire life. And he's

01:54:05.829 --> 01:54:09.750
just got the gift of wisdom. And it comes in

01:54:09.750 --> 01:54:13.630
the shape of a thick New York accent. So it seems

01:54:13.630 --> 01:54:17.569
very folksy when he gives you his wisdom. Well,

01:54:17.670 --> 01:54:18.869
I would love to get him on if you're able to

01:54:18.869 --> 01:54:21.390
help me with that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

01:54:22.010 --> 01:54:23.869
Beautiful. Thank you. All right. Well, then the

01:54:23.869 --> 01:54:25.670
last question before we make sure everyone knows

01:54:25.670 --> 01:54:28.470
where to find all things, Sean, what do you do

01:54:28.470 --> 01:54:34.729
to decompress? I love to work out. I love to

01:54:34.729 --> 01:54:38.529
box. I love to play guitar, but my biggest decompression

01:54:38.529 --> 01:54:40.850
is my family. Like there's no stress with me

01:54:40.850 --> 01:54:45.210
if I'm around my family. So if I've had a long

01:54:45.210 --> 01:54:48.229
day at work or stuff on the farm is just frustrating

01:54:48.229 --> 01:54:52.149
me. The thing that I enjoy the most that helps

01:54:52.149 --> 01:54:54.449
me de -stress is just sit down and play a game

01:54:54.449 --> 01:54:57.210
with the kids, whether it's a board game, a card

01:54:57.210 --> 01:54:59.489
game, whatever it is. And I'm instantly only

01:54:59.489 --> 01:55:01.949
thinking about how much fun I'm having right

01:55:01.949 --> 01:55:05.449
then and right there. Beautiful. Goes back again.

01:55:05.529 --> 01:55:08.670
Ultimate currency. All right. Well, then for

01:55:08.670 --> 01:55:11.409
people listening, let's start with Primal Beef.

01:55:11.449 --> 01:55:13.029
Where can they find that? And what do you offer

01:55:13.029 --> 01:55:16.380
on that site? Yeah, the website's just primalbeef

01:55:16.380 --> 01:55:20.399
.com and it's single sourced farm raised beef

01:55:20.399 --> 01:55:22.859
right here in the Shenandoah Valley where I am.

01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:26.119
And you can go on there. We've got curated boxes

01:55:26.119 --> 01:55:29.000
where we've made some boxes with some really

01:55:29.000 --> 01:55:31.699
good blends of cuts. And then we also have a

01:55:31.699 --> 01:55:33.899
custom box option where you can go and just put

01:55:33.899 --> 01:55:35.760
whatever beef you want in there. So whether you're

01:55:35.760 --> 01:55:40.000
looking for ground beef, steaks, barbecue cuts

01:55:40.000 --> 01:55:43.470
like brisket or beef ribs or a tri -tip. We got

01:55:43.470 --> 01:55:46.609
you covered. And I promise you a couple of things.

01:55:47.829 --> 01:55:50.409
You're not going to ever have better beef. If

01:55:50.409 --> 01:55:51.869
there's an issue with your order, we're going

01:55:51.869 --> 01:55:54.789
to take care of it. Myself or Paul or Declan,

01:55:54.789 --> 01:55:56.149
the other founders are going to take care of

01:55:56.149 --> 01:56:00.310
it. And at the backside of that order, we donate

01:56:00.310 --> 01:56:03.369
a cut of beef to active duty military members

01:56:03.369 --> 01:56:06.130
and their family through the C4 Foundation. So

01:56:06.130 --> 01:56:10.210
anytime someone comes and orders a box, we take

01:56:10.210 --> 01:56:14.109
a cut out of our... Our inventory doesn't cost

01:56:14.109 --> 01:56:17.890
the customer anything. It's totally on us. We

01:56:17.890 --> 01:56:20.069
take a cut out of our inventory and we set it

01:56:20.069 --> 01:56:23.329
aside and we donate that inventory periodically

01:56:23.329 --> 01:56:26.890
to active duty SEALs and their family. So not

01:56:26.890 --> 01:56:28.310
only are you getting good beef for yourself,

01:56:28.449 --> 01:56:30.649
but you're hooking up some service members as

01:56:30.649 --> 01:56:32.850
well. And that service member is not me, by the

01:56:32.850 --> 01:56:35.069
way. Full disclosure. I don't just take it and

01:56:35.069 --> 01:56:40.149
put it in my refrigerator. Going back to that,

01:56:40.189 --> 01:56:41.970
just while we're talking about leadership and

01:56:41.970 --> 01:56:45.090
business, I also feel, I guess I'm kind of romanticizing

01:56:45.090 --> 01:56:46.590
about a lot of things, you know, the good old

01:56:46.590 --> 01:56:50.189
days. But with this worshipping of monopoly and

01:56:50.189 --> 01:56:52.050
with these James Bond villains that we've got

01:56:52.050 --> 01:56:55.789
as a result of that, I feel like one of the most

01:56:55.789 --> 01:56:57.970
powerful business models is the social business

01:56:57.970 --> 01:57:02.460
model. woven into the sales of your product is

01:57:02.460 --> 01:57:05.500
some sort of altruistic practice what is your

01:57:05.500 --> 01:57:08.100
view of that on the grander scale that being

01:57:08.100 --> 01:57:10.779
like the kind of the next generation of businesses

01:57:10.779 --> 01:57:13.159
that's really kind of leaning into the consumer

01:57:13.159 --> 01:57:16.880
as well i love seeing it and i think the only

01:57:16.880 --> 01:57:18.920
thing that i would say is i hope it comes from

01:57:18.920 --> 01:57:23.199
a place of true desire to give back and not as

01:57:23.199 --> 01:57:26.180
like a marketing scheme to try to get people

01:57:26.180 --> 01:57:29.239
to buy your product. And I think it is. I think

01:57:29.239 --> 01:57:32.300
it comes from a genuine place for people to want

01:57:32.300 --> 01:57:34.800
to give back. And that was really important to

01:57:34.800 --> 01:57:37.359
us when we founded Primal Beef and Jocko's a

01:57:37.359 --> 01:57:39.319
partner. He's the other founder of Primal Beef.

01:57:39.640 --> 01:57:44.079
And we knew that we wanted this company to be

01:57:44.079 --> 01:57:46.239
something that provided the American public with

01:57:46.239 --> 01:57:48.279
something that they needed, which was farm fresh

01:57:48.279 --> 01:57:51.699
American beef with no hormones, no antibiotics,

01:57:51.960 --> 01:57:54.770
none of that nonsense in there. But we also knew

01:57:54.770 --> 01:57:57.390
that we wanted the company to be more than just

01:57:57.390 --> 01:58:00.229
that. So we have the partnership with the C4

01:58:00.229 --> 01:58:03.229
Foundation where we feed active duty service

01:58:03.229 --> 01:58:06.550
members. And then the abattoir that we use, Seven

01:58:06.550 --> 01:58:08.930
Hills down in Lynchburg, Virginia, a couple of

01:58:08.930 --> 01:58:12.270
hours from us. We chose them because they're

01:58:12.270 --> 01:58:15.130
the best in the business of what they do. They're

01:58:15.130 --> 01:58:18.380
a small. you know, boutique, if you want to,

01:58:18.500 --> 01:58:22.020
abattoir that focuses on, you know, the quality

01:58:22.020 --> 01:58:24.140
of the cuts and the quality of the dry aging.

01:58:24.640 --> 01:58:27.380
But they're also very mission focused, and they

01:58:27.380 --> 01:58:31.260
hire and train butchers from a work release program.

01:58:31.560 --> 01:58:34.020
So they're taking people that have made some

01:58:34.020 --> 01:58:36.619
bad decisions in their life, spent some time

01:58:36.619 --> 01:58:39.659
behind bars, and they're giving them a chance

01:58:39.659 --> 01:58:41.979
that most other people are not willing to give,

01:58:42.039 --> 01:58:44.140
which is giving them a chance at employment and

01:58:44.140 --> 01:58:47.699
not just that. They're teaching them a very marketable

01:58:47.699 --> 01:58:51.220
and very important skill, which is how to butcher

01:58:51.220 --> 01:58:53.260
and process an animal, which is a skill that's

01:58:53.260 --> 01:58:55.960
going away. And I can tell you from going down

01:58:55.960 --> 01:58:58.520
there and spending time with them that this is

01:58:58.520 --> 01:59:00.420
a life changing thing for these individuals,

01:59:00.579 --> 01:59:02.939
because now not only are they given a second

01:59:02.939 --> 01:59:06.039
chance at life, they're given a career and they're

01:59:06.039 --> 01:59:09.140
made part of a family at Seven Hills that genuinely

01:59:09.140 --> 01:59:12.779
cares about them. So that that desire to take

01:59:12.779 --> 01:59:16.050
care of people around us was woven. all throughout

01:59:16.050 --> 01:59:18.789
Primal Beef. And you are seeing that more and

01:59:18.789 --> 01:59:21.529
more with companies that are starting. And I

01:59:21.529 --> 01:59:23.529
think it's a beautiful thing. And I think it

01:59:23.529 --> 01:59:26.529
speaks to the heart also of what it means to

01:59:26.529 --> 01:59:29.270
be an American and wanting to take care of your

01:59:29.270 --> 01:59:33.409
fellow citizens. That reminds me, I've talked

01:59:33.409 --> 01:59:37.310
about this a lot on here. I had the superintendent

01:59:37.310 --> 01:59:41.189
of Bastoy Prison in Norway. And they have everyone

01:59:41.189 --> 01:59:43.909
from petty crime through to murderers in this

01:59:43.909 --> 01:59:46.789
prison. But the prison looks like a housing development.

01:59:46.949 --> 01:59:49.250
It's on an island outside of Oslo. So they've

01:59:49.250 --> 01:59:51.609
lost their freedom, but they live together. They

01:59:51.609 --> 01:59:54.449
cook together. They clean together. They go to

01:59:54.449 --> 01:59:56.850
work. They go to school. Because the Norwegian

01:59:56.850 --> 02:00:00.130
philosophy is one day, 95 % of all prisoners

02:00:00.130 --> 02:00:02.720
are going to move back into your street. So do

02:00:02.720 --> 02:00:04.920
you want someone who was held in a box that had

02:00:04.920 --> 02:00:07.100
to, you know, have a shank in case they got murdered

02:00:07.100 --> 02:00:09.800
that day or, you know, drugs that were smuggled

02:00:09.800 --> 02:00:12.180
in? Or do you want someone who's truly rehabilitated?

02:00:12.420 --> 02:00:14.420
And even in Portugal, if you look at how they

02:00:14.420 --> 02:00:16.479
reversed addiction there, they decriminalized

02:00:16.479 --> 02:00:19.579
addiction, not selling, not smuggling, but addiction

02:00:19.579 --> 02:00:23.020
itself. And job creation is one of their tools

02:00:23.020 --> 02:00:26.739
in there as well. So looking at a human being

02:00:26.739 --> 02:00:29.520
and saying. They're fallible just like I am.

02:00:29.579 --> 02:00:31.439
They make mistakes. You know, they went down

02:00:31.439 --> 02:00:33.180
that one road. Maybe they didn't have that mentor

02:00:33.180 --> 02:00:36.140
that I had woven into their crossroads and be

02:00:36.140 --> 02:00:38.119
able to have these programs that really allow

02:00:38.119 --> 02:00:40.180
people to get back on their feet and become a

02:00:40.180 --> 02:00:42.340
productive member of society again. I mean, it's

02:00:42.340 --> 02:00:45.560
exactly what we need here. Yeah, it's huge. And

02:00:45.560 --> 02:00:47.880
it's awesome to see that those countries are

02:00:47.880 --> 02:00:49.659
doing things like that and that it's working.

02:00:50.680 --> 02:00:52.880
Absolutely. All right. Well, that was Primal

02:00:52.880 --> 02:00:54.939
Beef. What about Echelon Front? Tell me kind

02:00:54.939 --> 02:00:58.100
of what the different branches of the leadership

02:00:58.100 --> 02:00:59.800
training are there and where people can find

02:00:59.800 --> 02:01:04.720
that. Yeah, our goal is to just. Teach the skill

02:01:04.720 --> 02:01:07.159
of leadership to as many people as we possibly

02:01:07.159 --> 02:01:09.260
can. And I use that word skill very deliberately

02:01:09.260 --> 02:01:11.819
because it is a skill. There's no such thing

02:01:11.819 --> 02:01:15.000
as a born leader. That's a myth. There's no such

02:01:15.000 --> 02:01:17.819
thing as a child that emerged from the womb with

02:01:17.819 --> 02:01:20.579
all of the characteristics and traits that they're

02:01:20.579 --> 02:01:23.220
going to need to be a good leader. It's a skill.

02:01:23.800 --> 02:01:26.369
We can all learn it. We can all get better at

02:01:26.369 --> 02:01:28.430
it, no matter how effective we are as leaders.

02:01:28.750 --> 02:01:31.229
There's always things that we can do to improve.

02:01:31.329 --> 02:01:33.310
There's always new tools that we can leverage

02:01:33.310 --> 02:01:35.890
to better the lives of the people that we're

02:01:35.890 --> 02:01:38.109
leading. And that's our mission at Echelon Front.

02:01:38.510 --> 02:01:41.069
And there's a couple of different buckets that

02:01:41.069 --> 02:01:44.109
that falls into. So we have events where people

02:01:44.109 --> 02:01:48.010
can come to them, like the muster, where there's

02:01:48.010 --> 02:01:50.569
a thousand people that come from all over the

02:01:50.569 --> 02:01:53.430
world to attend this two -day deep dive into

02:01:53.430 --> 02:01:55.970
leadership. And you're going to hear from Jocko

02:01:55.970 --> 02:01:58.010
and Leif, our founders, and from all the different

02:01:58.010 --> 02:02:00.430
instructors. And you're going to get time to

02:02:00.430 --> 02:02:02.329
liaise with the different leaders that are there

02:02:02.329 --> 02:02:05.210
and pick their brains. And then we also have

02:02:05.210 --> 02:02:08.029
a business unit. Our main business unit is going

02:02:08.029 --> 02:02:11.239
and working. with companies and going and working

02:02:11.239 --> 02:02:13.619
with teams. So, you know, a leader or a team

02:02:13.619 --> 02:02:16.300
might reach out and say, hey, you know, I'd really

02:02:16.300 --> 02:02:18.659
like to bring Echelon Front in to spend some

02:02:18.659 --> 02:02:22.119
time with my leaders to get to know them, to

02:02:22.119 --> 02:02:24.319
get to hear what their struggles and what their

02:02:24.319 --> 02:02:27.239
challenges are. And then let's talk about some

02:02:27.239 --> 02:02:30.380
strategies and some opportunities, excuse me,

02:02:30.399 --> 02:02:34.159
and some tools that they can use to be more effective

02:02:34.159 --> 02:02:36.520
in their leadership role. Or sometimes the company

02:02:36.520 --> 02:02:39.670
will go, hey, we just, promoted from within.

02:02:39.850 --> 02:02:43.050
And we've now got 50 managers that have never

02:02:43.050 --> 02:02:45.489
managed people before, and we want to set them

02:02:45.489 --> 02:02:47.409
up for success. So we want you to spend some

02:02:47.409 --> 02:02:50.689
time with them and really help us prepare them

02:02:50.689 --> 02:02:53.029
for that first real leadership role that they're

02:02:53.029 --> 02:02:57.869
going to undertake. So that's really our driving

02:02:57.869 --> 02:03:00.949
mission as a company is just to teach these principles

02:03:00.949 --> 02:03:03.250
of leadership to as many people as we possibly

02:03:03.250 --> 02:03:07.229
can. And then you have the online format as well.

02:03:07.760 --> 02:03:10.079
Yes, the online format is something that kind

02:03:10.079 --> 02:03:12.560
of stemmed from COVID, where we could no longer

02:03:12.560 --> 02:03:16.399
go and interact with our clients and our teammates

02:03:16.399 --> 02:03:18.960
at these different companies and different teams

02:03:18.960 --> 02:03:22.239
in person. So we started an online format. And

02:03:22.239 --> 02:03:25.180
over the last five years, we've really focused

02:03:25.180 --> 02:03:28.060
on building out the digital content around leadership

02:03:28.060 --> 02:03:30.199
that we have, because what we've realized is

02:03:30.199 --> 02:03:34.470
our limiting factor to teaching this is us. There's

02:03:34.470 --> 02:03:38.189
only so many of us that can go around and talk

02:03:38.189 --> 02:03:40.970
with the company and meet with the company. So

02:03:40.970 --> 02:03:43.829
we're building out this digital database of all

02:03:43.829 --> 02:03:46.050
these different leadership topics and all these

02:03:46.050 --> 02:03:48.609
different leadership tools that companies can

02:03:48.609 --> 02:03:52.789
utilize to help improve their leaders' capabilities.

02:03:54.670 --> 02:03:58.800
And that's echelonfront .com. echelonfront .com.

02:03:58.939 --> 02:04:01.159
And if you're interested in the online stuff,

02:04:01.239 --> 02:04:02.720
you'll find plenty of information out there.

02:04:03.039 --> 02:04:06.140
If you're interested in talking about maybe bringing

02:04:06.140 --> 02:04:08.420
out Echelon Front to support your team or one

02:04:08.420 --> 02:04:11.520
of your events, you can go on there and there's

02:04:11.520 --> 02:04:13.560
a kind of a question submittal form that'll go

02:04:13.560 --> 02:04:16.079
directly to our team and they'll follow up with

02:04:16.079 --> 02:04:19.560
you real quick. Brilliant. Well, Sean, I want

02:04:19.560 --> 02:04:21.560
to thank you. It's been such an interesting and

02:04:21.560 --> 02:04:23.920
diverse conversation from obviously, you know,

02:04:23.920 --> 02:04:27.239
active duty in the SEALs to restorative, excuse

02:04:27.239 --> 02:04:29.319
me, regenerative farming and everything in between.

02:04:29.399 --> 02:04:31.979
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous

02:04:31.979 --> 02:04:34.079
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

02:04:34.079 --> 02:04:37.060
podcast today. Yeah, absolutely, James. And again,

02:04:37.140 --> 02:04:39.460
man, I really appreciate the opportunity. And

02:04:39.460 --> 02:04:41.220
it was awesome to see you at the muster. And

02:04:41.220 --> 02:04:43.060
it's awesome to spend some time with you today.