WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.700 Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As 00:00:01.700 --> 00:00:03.439 always, my name's James Geering, and this week 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:05.480 it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show, 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:09.179 firefighter, law enforcement officer, and the 00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:13.119 author of Demons and Angels, Dennis P. Schock. 00:00:13.220 --> 00:00:15.839 So in this conversation, we discuss a host of 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:18.719 topics, from Dennis's journey into the fire service, 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:22.500 some of his powerful career calls, his mental 00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:26.039 health journey, his transition into law enforcement, 00:00:26.219 --> 00:00:30.059 teaching defensive tactics, catharsis through 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:33.619 writing, and so much more. Now, before we get 00:00:33.619 --> 00:00:35.939 to this incredible conversation, as I say every 00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:39.079 week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:41.920 app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:45.920 leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:49.039 five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast, 00:00:49.380 --> 00:00:51.840 therefore making it easier for others to find. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:56.659 And this is a free library of over 1 ,200 episodes 00:00:56.659 --> 00:01:00.579 now. So all I ask in return is that you help 00:01:00.579 --> 00:01:03.200 share these incredible men and women's stories 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.219 so I can get them to every single person on planet 00:01:07.219 --> 00:01:10.480 Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.730 said, I introduce to you, Dennis. P -Shock. Enjoy. 00:01:34.709 --> 00:01:37.030 Well, Dennis, I want to start by saying thank 00:01:37.030 --> 00:01:39.489 you so much for taking the time and coming on 00:01:39.489 --> 00:01:42.370 the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thanks for 00:01:42.370 --> 00:01:44.750 having me. I'm humbled. It's a huge honor. Thank 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:47.269 you, James. So where on planet Earth are we finding 00:01:47.269 --> 00:01:50.430 you this afternoon? We are in Atlanta, Georgia, 00:01:50.609 --> 00:01:52.810 just outside of there, probably about 40 minutes 00:01:52.810 --> 00:01:56.109 outside in a suburb in a county called Forsyth 00:01:56.109 --> 00:01:58.930 County. How did you guys do with the storm that 00:01:58.930 --> 00:02:02.650 we just had? We did okay. Georgia, you know, 00:02:02.689 --> 00:02:05.329 doesn't do too well usually. They usually don't. 00:02:06.510 --> 00:02:08.689 uh but we did okay with this one let's just say 00:02:08.689 --> 00:02:11.090 that we did um everyone was pretty good they 00:02:11.090 --> 00:02:12.750 salted earlier which is good which i usually 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:14.930 don't do but uh we survived how about y 'all 00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:17.810 we i mean we it was gorgeous down here we just 00:02:17.810 --> 00:02:20.870 had like 23 degrees at night that was it but 00:02:20.870 --> 00:02:23.430 yeah nothing was you know needed to be done no 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:25.490 snow or anything so i think we escaped the worst 00:02:25.490 --> 00:02:29.610 of it yeah five inches nothing bad yeah Brilliant. 00:02:29.650 --> 00:02:31.169 All right, well, let's start at the very beginning 00:02:31.169 --> 00:02:33.430 of your timeline then. So tell me where you were 00:02:33.430 --> 00:02:35.330 born and tell me a little bit about your family 00:02:35.330 --> 00:02:37.849 dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings. 00:02:38.469 --> 00:02:42.710 Sure, absolutely. Seven of us in total, five 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:45.189 kids, grew up in a place called Norristown, Pennsylvania, 00:02:45.530 --> 00:02:50.150 just outside of Philadelphia. Blue -collar town, 00:02:50.289 --> 00:02:54.060 man, just hard working. uh everyone worked their 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:56.300 tails off a lot of folks stayed there kind of 00:02:56.300 --> 00:02:58.759 that kind of town you know used to be um outside 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:00.819 country hawking you think about allentown kind 00:03:00.819 --> 00:03:03.060 of like your steel towns and everyone grows up 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:06.340 there and stays there man and um grew up playing 00:03:06.340 --> 00:03:08.439 sports of course you know we're outdoors all 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:11.419 the time very different um i listened to your 00:03:11.419 --> 00:03:14.280 one buddy uh from fdmy had him on very similar 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.219 to his life in new york um A lot of diversity 00:03:17.219 --> 00:03:20.599 with Italians, Polish, Irish, and just huge, 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:23.580 huge communities. And everyone got along, man. 00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:26.659 Everyone played. And it was literally that you 00:03:26.659 --> 00:03:29.240 played till the lights came on at nighttime. 00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:31.319 And then you went in and there was, you know, 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:33.139 no cell phones and everyone's outdoors, man. 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:36.199 Grew up playing ice hockey, played football too. 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.180 And everyone was playing sports. And you definitely 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:40.919 played every single sport you could. Everyone 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:42.860 was pretty much good at everything. It was extremely 00:03:42.860 --> 00:03:45.699 competitive and blue collar, man. Very blue collar. 00:03:46.569 --> 00:03:49.090 I always ask people this, you know, when you're 00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:50.990 from a generation that just plays sports and 00:03:50.990 --> 00:03:53.050 you're playing lots of different sports, you're 00:03:53.050 --> 00:03:54.770 not specializing, you're not trying to become, 00:03:54.930 --> 00:03:57.590 you know, the world champion in something. After 00:03:57.590 --> 00:03:59.870 you graduated, did you continue playing sports? 00:04:00.789 --> 00:04:03.490 I did. So, yeah, I played in high school, of 00:04:03.490 --> 00:04:05.909 course. And then I got to play Division II hockey, 00:04:06.050 --> 00:04:09.379 played up there too. just continue. And we grew 00:04:09.379 --> 00:04:10.979 up playing street hockey and pond hockey when 00:04:10.979 --> 00:04:13.159 everything, anything froze and everyone was pretty 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.539 good. You know, everyone up there is just, it's, 00:04:15.539 --> 00:04:17.339 it's pretty fine line who's going to make it 00:04:17.339 --> 00:04:20.560 or who's not. And after that, but almost everyone, 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.620 man, everyone plays through high school. It's 00:04:22.620 --> 00:04:26.060 just standard. And then once you graduate from 00:04:26.060 --> 00:04:27.680 college though, are you still playing sports? 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.519 I did. I played, I got into martial arts. So 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.240 I was always into martial arts and I continued 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:35.779 to play ice hockey until about the age of 40 00:04:35.779 --> 00:04:37.879 when I broke my femur. And that was the end of 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.959 my hockey career right there. It's just an interesting, 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:42.980 I mean, I won't take a deep dive into this because 00:04:42.980 --> 00:04:45.399 I talk about it on here many times, but when 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.339 you have someone who's got a background where 00:04:47.339 --> 00:04:49.459 they just played lots of sports and it was really 00:04:49.459 --> 00:04:52.279 for the love of the game, it was for fun. They 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.209 end up. carrying on playing throughout adulthood. 00:04:55.329 --> 00:04:59.029 When you have, it seems, a high level of specialization 00:04:59.029 --> 00:05:01.750 and performance at a high school and college 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:05.089 level, usually resulting in injury and or burnout, 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:08.149 you have a lot of people in the US that used 00:05:08.149 --> 00:05:10.550 to be at a high level that now are very deconditioned 00:05:10.550 --> 00:05:12.850 and don't play anything at all. So I think it's 00:05:12.850 --> 00:05:16.180 a testament to You know, not specializing, you 00:05:16.180 --> 00:05:18.120 know, enjoying sport for what it is, playing 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.199 a multitude of sports because there's a high 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:22.720 chance that you're going to carry on and therefore 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:25.819 maintain your fitness. Totally agree. And I think 00:05:25.819 --> 00:05:27.519 it led us into our public safety professions 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:29.180 in a way, too. You know, we talk about childhood 00:05:29.180 --> 00:05:32.139 trauma can do that, too. But your sports and 00:05:32.139 --> 00:05:34.899 that camaraderie and everything, people can't 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:37.339 understand it. And you did it nonstop. You went 00:05:37.339 --> 00:05:39.319 from baseball season to football season to hockey 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:41.660 season. And you were always surrounded by these 00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:44.170 different people. Everyone was ultra competitive 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:46.129 and everyone played for the love of the game. 00:05:46.189 --> 00:05:48.410 And I have a very difficult problem watching 00:05:48.410 --> 00:05:51.370 any pro sports now because I just I can't even 00:05:51.370 --> 00:05:52.689 comprehend it when they say, well, I'm not going 00:05:52.689 --> 00:05:54.410 to practice today. I'm not going to play. We 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:56.329 did it because we loved it every single day. 00:05:57.149 --> 00:05:59.389 Well, you mentioned childhood trauma. Obviously, 00:05:59.449 --> 00:06:00.790 we're going to be talking about mental health 00:06:00.790 --> 00:06:03.290 in this conversation. When you reflect back now 00:06:03.290 --> 00:06:06.990 with this 2026 lens, knowing that a lot of us 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:09.709 in uniform. had things you know struggles when 00:06:09.709 --> 00:06:11.949 we were young and and if addressed that becomes 00:06:11.949 --> 00:06:14.850 a strength but it does kind of you know cause 00:06:14.850 --> 00:06:16.709 a lot of us to toe the line in the first place 00:06:16.709 --> 00:06:19.430 what were elements of your upbringing you think 00:06:19.430 --> 00:06:23.670 that contributed to your struggles uh again uh 00:06:23.670 --> 00:06:26.529 different different type of living too so everyone 00:06:26.529 --> 00:06:29.220 like you said was kind of doing that up fought 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:31.500 everyone served you know everyone was in either 00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:34.120 world war ii korea vietnam so everyone in your 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.980 family had previously served and very different 00:06:36.980 --> 00:06:39.740 again we'll get into that too um uh grandfather 00:06:39.740 --> 00:06:42.800 was in massive battles bout of lady gulf uh in 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.779 the navy battle of uh okinawa some huge naval 00:06:45.779 --> 00:06:48.339 battles and uh he actually helped i think it 00:06:48.339 --> 00:06:51.360 was at uh his tv 214 i think it was a pellu too 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.660 bombed so he was a massive battles gunner on 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:56.860 a ship never talked about anything zero ever 00:06:56.860 --> 00:06:59.899 and uh And you didn't talk about it. Like if 00:06:59.899 --> 00:07:01.699 they got mentioned, grandma would smack you on 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:04.120 the head. Do not bring this up in this household. 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:06.779 And you knew it. Then my father was in Vietnam 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:09.540 and he passed a couple of years ago and he did 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:11.899 not talk about it at all towards the end. And 00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:14.420 massive, massive trauma. All of his promotions 00:07:14.420 --> 00:07:16.480 in the field were combat promotions. His buddies 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.939 got killed and they said, Jim, you're next. You 00:07:18.939 --> 00:07:22.579 know, and very difficult. And you just knew, 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:25.660 you know, those guys had a had a they definitely 00:07:25.660 --> 00:07:29.040 had that aura. If you said something that gave 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:30.720 you that look and the conversation was over, 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:32.379 like you didn't even push it, you knew better. 00:07:33.379 --> 00:07:35.360 And it's so sad when we have this conversation 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:37.560 now, because I've actually had a World War II, 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.019 excuse me, yeah, World War II Iwo Jima wounded 00:07:41.019 --> 00:07:44.660 veteran on the show. And he talked about PTSD, 00:07:44.740 --> 00:07:46.759 he wrote a book about PTSD, which I thought was 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:51.259 phenomenal. Frank Wright. But you hear a lot 00:07:51.259 --> 00:07:53.399 of the stories, and I know it's still kind of 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:54.939 romanticized. There are a lot of World War II 00:07:54.939 --> 00:07:56.839 vets that came home and didn't have ticker tape 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:59.680 parades. They just went back to their farm town. 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.779 But they were still received somewhat as heroes. 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:05.920 And you look at the Vietnam generation, of which 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.399 I've had numerous people on, and it couldn't 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.899 have been more different than that. And the moral 00:08:10.899 --> 00:08:15.480 injury that it must have been to serve your country 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:17.279 overseas, whether you were drafted or whether 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.350 you signed up. Wear the American flag and then 00:08:20.350 --> 00:08:24.029 come back to that. I can't imagine how destructive 00:08:24.029 --> 00:08:26.029 that must have been. And obviously, I know that's 00:08:26.029 --> 00:08:28.430 behind a lot of our suicides in our World War, 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:32.610 excuse me, in our veterans of Vietnam. Absolutely. 00:08:32.870 --> 00:08:35.710 And yeah, of course, I had my father live it 00:08:35.710 --> 00:08:38.590 at the time. And later on, as we got kind of 00:08:38.590 --> 00:08:40.070 a little bit more talk and all like that, as 00:08:40.070 --> 00:08:42.490 we're getting older, I got to work with some 00:08:42.490 --> 00:08:44.950 Purple Heart guys. And when they started in Vietnam, 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:47.490 got hurt. And their stories, too, are... just 00:08:47.490 --> 00:08:49.389 insane. One guy got shot down in a helicopter 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:51.690 and he's coming back to the States on a plane. 00:08:52.330 --> 00:08:54.769 And he's riding with all the dead bodies in the 00:08:54.769 --> 00:08:57.490 back. He's the only live one. And the pilot lands 00:08:57.490 --> 00:08:59.649 at a spot and he's like, hey man, what did you 00:08:59.649 --> 00:09:01.169 say you did again? He's like, I got shot down. 00:09:01.190 --> 00:09:03.269 I got this purple heart. The pilot switched with 00:09:03.269 --> 00:09:05.690 him. He's like, I'm riding in the back now. You 00:09:05.690 --> 00:09:07.929 ride in the front. You're a hero. So pretty incredible, 00:09:07.970 --> 00:09:12.759 man. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, I had Major James Capers, 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:16.620 who was one of the very first Marine recon soldiers 00:09:16.620 --> 00:09:20.620 or Marines, had a kind of incident with a helicopter. 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.779 They were trying to evac after they'd all been 00:09:22.779 --> 00:09:26.240 shot. He jumped out because the bird couldn't 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.840 take off. It landed again. His men grabbed him, 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:31.980 put him in, and they were able to finally take 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:35.879 off. Should have got a Medal of Honor for what 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:40.279 he did. badly wounded, comes back to stateside 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:42.940 and is lying on the tarmac and someone actually 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:45.559 pisses on him while he's lying there on a stretcher. 00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:48.320 You know what I mean? So many others spit and 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.659 called baby killers and all this stuff. And, 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:53.419 you know, most of these men just thought they 00:09:53.419 --> 00:09:55.220 were doing the right thing at the time or were 00:09:55.220 --> 00:09:57.759 even drafted. So, I mean, this is why I like 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.159 to ask our military veterans about the nuances 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:04.120 because it's not black and white. No, it's not. 00:10:04.259 --> 00:10:07.539 You're so right. It helps definitely with peer 00:10:07.539 --> 00:10:10.259 support trauma when you start processing stuff 00:10:10.259 --> 00:10:13.120 like these ladies and gentlemen definitely did 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.620 as best as they could. Like that's we can't explain 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:18.840 it. You just gave your life, did this almost 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.759 your life. And then someone comes back and takes 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.759 a piss on you. Like, I mean, there's nothing 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.000 to say. No, exactly. It's horrible. Well, with 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.080 your kind of career journey, when you were still 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:30.919 in school, what were you dreaming of becoming 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:33.710 back then? It's funny, you know, because we grew 00:10:33.710 --> 00:10:36.090 up playing Cowboys Indians and the Green Army 00:10:36.090 --> 00:10:37.850 Man. That's how old I am, you know. So you're 00:10:37.850 --> 00:10:41.490 always dreaming military, and you're always pretending 00:10:41.490 --> 00:10:43.110 you were against Germany in World War II and 00:10:43.110 --> 00:10:45.129 then Russia with the Cold War. So definitely 00:10:45.129 --> 00:10:48.009 wanted to go in the military. And my dad, man, 00:10:48.090 --> 00:10:49.629 he's an intense dude, and I told him I was going 00:10:49.629 --> 00:10:52.009 to join the Marines like him, and he lost his 00:10:52.009 --> 00:10:53.570 mind and scared the hell out of me. My dad was 00:10:53.570 --> 00:10:55.350 an intimidating dude, man. It was just different. 00:10:55.450 --> 00:10:59.240 He went to DI for a little bit. He scared the 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:01.539 shit out of me. So I was like, yeah, man, you're 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:02.899 going to go to college because no one goes to 00:11:02.899 --> 00:11:04.379 college here in this family. You're going to 00:11:04.379 --> 00:11:07.000 college degree. My brother just got one of the 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.960 degrees and we're going to follow up. So I said, 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.919 OK, so I'm going to move out of this house. I 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:13.399 eventually moved out. I was like, I got to serve, 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:16.299 man. I have got to serve. And then really it 00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:17.980 was between firefighting police and I started 00:11:17.980 --> 00:11:20.000 with fire. And that's what I decided I had. I 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:21.860 had to do something more. I just felt that definitely 00:11:21.860 --> 00:11:27.389 I was letting myself down. What was 9 -11 through 00:11:27.389 --> 00:11:29.129 your eyes? What was your experience that day? 00:11:29.789 --> 00:11:32.649 So I was a firefighter for about seven months 00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:35.090 at the time, a very busy area outside of Atlanta. 00:11:36.529 --> 00:11:38.909 You know, horrific. So, you know, I remember 00:11:38.909 --> 00:11:40.409 watching it on the video. We're actually doing 00:11:40.409 --> 00:11:43.830 IV practice that day for EMT school. And I couldn't 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:45.309 hit a damn IV. That's how I always remember. 00:11:45.950 --> 00:11:48.750 You know, it's hard in the beginning. And, you 00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:50.809 know, I get to the TVs, which was insane because 00:11:50.809 --> 00:11:53.110 you couldn't leave the classroom ever. And we 00:11:53.110 --> 00:11:55.409 went in there, and we pretty much got there right 00:11:55.409 --> 00:11:58.929 before they fell down. And our instructors, you 00:11:58.929 --> 00:12:02.450 know, are the old salty vets. Like, you know 00:12:02.450 --> 00:12:04.309 who they are. You didn't cross them or nothing. 00:12:04.690 --> 00:12:06.850 And those towers went down. I looked over, and 00:12:06.850 --> 00:12:09.490 one of them was crying. And I was like, holy 00:12:09.490 --> 00:12:12.950 crap. Like, this guy is, you know, Superman to 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:15.029 you already. He's one of your instructors, and 00:12:15.029 --> 00:12:17.730 he's been doing this probably 20 years. And I 00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:20.149 was like, okay, this is pretty bad, man. It hit 00:12:20.149 --> 00:12:22.529 me hard. And then the numbers started coming 00:12:22.529 --> 00:12:25.250 out. They didn't know at the time how many hundreds 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:27.889 of firefighters and then so many cops were in 00:12:27.889 --> 00:12:31.190 there. And then, of course, the other one. Man, 00:12:31.269 --> 00:12:33.309 it hit hard. It definitely hit hard. Like I said, 00:12:33.370 --> 00:12:35.470 I was firefighting at the time. Guys started 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:38.090 volunteering. Get your gear. We want to go. We 00:12:38.090 --> 00:12:39.570 want to get up to New York. We're in Philadelphia, 00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:43.250 so we want to get up there and help out. And 00:12:43.250 --> 00:12:45.740 the department was like, absolutely not. um no 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:47.519 one was allowed to go and that that hurt worse 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.240 too because you got all these gung -ho folks 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:51.899 who were like we'll go we'll take pto we'll do 00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:54.600 whatever it takes to go help out but yeah man 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:57.740 it was a massive blow and uh it was a i knew 00:12:57.740 --> 00:13:01.399 i was in a pretty tough career real fast how 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:04.299 competitive was it to get hired back then oh 00:13:04.299 --> 00:13:06.399 god i thought we're gonna go there i'd listen 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.639 to what your last podcast yes all right anyway 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.799 uh very hard so it took we had a two -year waiting 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.179 period And so at the time, I applied for the 00:13:15.179 --> 00:13:17.799 place I was at for 17, 18 years. And I applied 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:20.899 for the city of Atlanta. And I was just waiting 00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:23.860 and waiting, man. I applied in like 99. And 2001, 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.539 it was like six days before my two years came 00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:28.740 up. And I was like, I'm done. I'm moving on to 00:13:28.740 --> 00:13:30.399 a different career. Like, I can't wait. And of 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.399 course, I was working. And two years, man. And 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:36.740 the PT test was no joke. You know, it was like, 00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:38.639 are you claustrophobic? I was like, I don't know. 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:40.679 They put the damn gear on me. And they're like, 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:42.460 go crawl through this tunnel. I'm like, okay, 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:44.600 I want this job pretty damn bad. I waited two 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.139 years. So I went, did really well. I was always 00:13:47.139 --> 00:13:49.700 in shape, man. I'm a PT fanatic. So did really 00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:51.679 well on the test. But, you know, you just don't 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:52.899 know how you're going to do in a tunnel either. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:56.580 It's pitch blacked out. And it was really interesting. 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:57.879 And everyone was different trying. You see all 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:00.940 these people fail next to you. And then all of 00:14:00.940 --> 00:14:02.860 a sudden, voila, man, I had a job. And it was, 00:14:02.899 --> 00:14:05.200 again, two -year waiting list. And they were 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.110 the cream of the crop. And what was your first 00:14:08.110 --> 00:14:11.110 department? It's called Gwinnett County. It's 00:14:11.110 --> 00:14:12.690 just south side of Atlanta. It's about a million 00:14:12.690 --> 00:14:16.870 citizens. I think they're about 17th top rated 00:14:16.870 --> 00:14:18.690 in the US right now for call volume. They're 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:22.429 pretty high. So at the front door, what was, 00:14:22.450 --> 00:14:26.149 if any, the mental health conversation? Zero. 00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:30.429 Oh, my God. I still remember. So, you know, you're 00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:33.769 in training. It's your. We'll call it your hell 00:14:33.769 --> 00:14:35.330 week. So the one night you got to stay up all 00:14:35.330 --> 00:14:36.830 night, you know, and the instructors just, you 00:14:36.830 --> 00:14:38.610 run mock calls all night, but no sleeping allowed 00:14:38.610 --> 00:14:41.230 for over 24 hours. And I'll never forget it, 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:44.090 man. The driver engineer and the other guys, 00:14:44.250 --> 00:14:47.129 old school dudes, they said, let's be effing 00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:49.870 clear. You do not talk about this job to your 00:14:49.870 --> 00:14:51.610 family or friends. They don't have a freaking 00:14:51.610 --> 00:14:54.450 clue and don't waste your damn time. He said, 00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:57.009 never your spouse either. I was like, okay. Of 00:14:57.009 --> 00:14:58.370 course you listen to everything they say. And 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:00.110 that was your mental health for the next probably 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:03.039 seven years right there. What did you find yourself 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.559 on vehicle wise? So it's pretty cool, man. When 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.320 I first started, we had an E1 engine, which was 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.460 an open cab. So it was pretty awesome, man. You 00:15:12.460 --> 00:15:14.159 didn't ride like I'm not that old, but at least 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:16.019 you were sitting in a chair and it was open. 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.940 So you had the elements, but it was cool as hell, 00:15:18.980 --> 00:15:20.659 man. You pulled up to cars next to you and you 00:15:20.659 --> 00:15:23.960 could look into the car. So it was an old school 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:26.480 engine, man. It was pretty awesome. and then 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.200 as far as like assignment were you um engine 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:31.179 guy for a while truck guy where did you kind 00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:33.360 of specialize for a long time yeah engine guy 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.039 was uh engine 23 super busy house man and uh 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.139 you get your assignment the night before and 00:15:38.139 --> 00:15:41.720 this guy uh comes up to me he's in like station 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:44.059 23 it's like he's like man that's busy get ready 00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:48.039 and uh first shift man fatality house fire boom 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.129 right from the get -go man was non -stop So with 00:15:52.129 --> 00:15:54.549 that being said, then doesn't have to be the 00:15:54.549 --> 00:15:56.690 most grotesque by any means. But when you reflect 00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:58.669 back now on the fireside, what was some of the 00:15:58.669 --> 00:16:02.289 career calls that you ran? Well, man, first of 00:16:02.289 --> 00:16:04.250 all, my books got a lot of the harshest ones 00:16:04.250 --> 00:16:06.629 that and those are the ones I wrote to process 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:08.409 when I started understanding trauma and all that. 00:16:08.509 --> 00:16:11.389 But, you know, I'd say a couple of calls in, 00:16:11.509 --> 00:16:13.809 man. You know, I don't know where you want to 00:16:13.809 --> 00:16:16.190 go, how dark you want to go here, but we had 00:16:16.190 --> 00:16:19.379 a couple. I read your book, man, so I know you 00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:23.340 explain things well, man. So we had these chicks 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:25.639 from Africa, man. And I mean Africa, like Kenya. 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:27.899 And we saw them earlier in the night, and they 00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:31.220 were like, hey, fireman. And my buddy's name 00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.360 is Black Cadillac. He's a huge black guy. He 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.860 was a pimp in Chicago before becoming a firefighter. 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.559 I'm not joking. So he's flirting. Yeah, man, 00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:40.980 it's a whole other story on the show. So they're 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:43.379 flirting back and forth. I'm like, hey. So, you 00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.340 know, we drive by. probably about five hours 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:48.100 later whatever how many hours i don't remember 00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:50.399 now you know trauma's funny get a call people 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.840 hit by vehicle man it's them they got smoked 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.200 like basically on an interstate four lanes uh 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.480 multiple times by multiple cars and we're talking 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:04.460 pieces hair is everywhere man and they're like 00:17:04.460 --> 00:17:07.920 these are those girls literally you know so you 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.539 get to work man you know uh Engine and Med Unit, 00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:12.720 probably five folks on scene. So everyone's got 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.200 a massive job to do, you know, on something like 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.740 that, too. So I had one patient. My black Cadillac 00:17:17.740 --> 00:17:20.859 had the other man. And it was rough, dude. And 00:17:20.859 --> 00:17:22.819 they both died, of course. But, you know, your 00:17:22.819 --> 00:17:25.380 part's sticking out. And I remember this for 00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:27.799 my trauma part, man. He was sitting on the curb 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:29.740 after the call, and the ambulance took off. You 00:17:29.740 --> 00:17:32.019 know what we do. Two lines, try to get what you 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:35.460 can on them. And he had a damn eyeball on his 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:37.359 hand. And he's like, Pete. He called me Pete. 00:17:37.930 --> 00:17:39.349 He's like, look, man, it was one of the damn 00:17:39.349 --> 00:17:41.190 girl's eyes, man. Just sitting in his freaking 00:17:41.190 --> 00:17:44.009 hand, man, on the side of the road. You know, 00:17:44.089 --> 00:17:46.130 you keep running calls. You try to process this 00:17:46.130 --> 00:17:48.890 shit, but you don't. Two hours later, 1 a .m., 00:17:48.890 --> 00:17:51.490 whatever, you get a call. Need a wash down. PD's 00:17:51.490 --> 00:17:54.890 out there. It's so, the road is so bad. We got 00:17:54.890 --> 00:17:56.289 to go do a wash down. You know what that is. 00:17:56.309 --> 00:17:58.589 Got to get booster line. So, man, it was a three. 00:17:58.769 --> 00:18:01.190 It was a trifecta that night just on one call. 00:18:01.289 --> 00:18:04.250 And that was two, three shifts in, man. brutal 00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:06.529 that reminds me when i when i first became a 00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:09.069 standalone medic in orange county outside of 00:18:09.069 --> 00:18:12.970 lando um one of my very first call you know the 00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:15.650 first shift at least it was um in the the night 00:18:15.650 --> 00:18:19.009 time but i don't know what exactly had happened 00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:20.769 but these two pedestrians decided they want to 00:18:20.769 --> 00:18:22.430 cross kind of like you're talking about like 00:18:22.430 --> 00:18:26.789 a six lane you know um road and just got creamed 00:18:26.789 --> 00:18:30.589 by a taxi and so i pull on scene you know one 00:18:30.589 --> 00:18:33.109 of my first calls as a standalone medic There's 00:18:33.109 --> 00:18:34.750 an experienced medic on the engine that's just 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:37.130 working them. But he turns to me and go, you 00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:38.730 know, should we call it? And I'm like, fuck, 00:18:38.910 --> 00:18:41.930 I don't know. Let's have a look. And so we start, 00:18:41.950 --> 00:18:43.390 you know, doing the assessment, listen to what 00:18:43.390 --> 00:18:45.349 they were telling me. And then one of the other 00:18:45.349 --> 00:18:47.049 guys says that there's brain matter. And I'm 00:18:47.049 --> 00:18:49.230 like, okay, then we're going to call it. Thank 00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:52.269 you for that sign. But yeah, I mean, God, to 00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:54.309 go from, you know, whatever we were doing prior, 00:18:54.569 --> 00:18:56.750 you know, watching TV or drinking coffee or whatever 00:18:56.750 --> 00:18:58.670 it was to then, like you said, and it's even 00:18:58.670 --> 00:19:01.150 worse. God, if you've actually interacted with 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:04.990 those people prior as well. But just the finality 00:19:04.990 --> 00:19:07.470 of a brutal call like that, it's heartbreaking. 00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:11.230 It really is. It is, man. And again, no peer 00:19:11.230 --> 00:19:13.670 support. You were told to un -F yourself. That's 00:19:13.670 --> 00:19:15.829 it. This is what you signed up for. Next call. 00:19:16.089 --> 00:19:18.170 Next call, man. You go home, do it again. And 00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:21.809 that's how those stations don't stop. They don't 00:19:21.809 --> 00:19:24.910 care. And you love it. Of course, you love it 00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:26.750 for years until you finally find out something 00:19:26.750 --> 00:19:30.279 is happening to you. Absolutely. What about Swift, 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:32.220 Swift water rescue? I saw that was one of your 00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:34.559 specialties. Talk to me about that. Yeah, man. 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.980 So that's, that's a whole nother story. So yeah, 00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:39.660 man, I got promoted, you know, driver and just 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:41.400 how it works out. Like you're going to the Swift 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:43.279 water team. I'm like, Jesus, I haven't swam in 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.279 years. I'm like, okay. You know, so go out there 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.640 for the tryouts. And again, PT fanatic, man, 00:19:48.660 --> 00:19:50.960 I'm in good shape, but swimming doesn't care. 00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:53.279 You know, the river does not care what kind of 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:54.799 shape you're in. You can do pull -ups all day 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.099 and pushups, but if you ain't doing this motion. 00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:59.779 So, yeah, man, I take the swim test. I go there, 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:02.480 and the swim test was funny. It's like a 50 -meter 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:04.420 sprain, then you tread water for 10 minutes, 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:06.099 and then do something else. I'm like, okay, I'm 00:20:06.099 --> 00:20:08.000 surviving, but I'm starting to hurt pretty good 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.859 here. And then it was, I think it was a 400 -meter 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.640 swim test, and I can't remember whatever time 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.019 it was. I made about four laps and drowned. I 00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:17.440 just went right to the bottom. I'm like, I have 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.380 nothing left. You can't fake it. Your body starts 00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:22.539 cramping because you don't use any of these muscles. 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.480 And I was like, I got issues. And they were like, 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:27.500 all right, well, here's the deal, man. You got 00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:29.259 two weeks. Swim test is back. You're off the 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:31.339 team and you're out of the station. I said, OK. 00:20:31.940 --> 00:20:35.079 And type A personality, man. I'm like, OK, game 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:37.279 on, man. So right to the pool every single day 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:41.660 and went back past the swim test. And then, you 00:20:41.660 --> 00:20:43.400 know, Swiftwater team, man, we do the hooch here, 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.380 Chattahoochee. It doesn't play, man. It doesn't 00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:48.480 care. It's seven miles an hour, which is fast. 00:20:48.619 --> 00:20:50.240 People don't understand how fast that is when 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.740 they're flowing. And got on the team. Lots of 00:20:53.740 --> 00:20:55.480 knots, you know, lots of knots, man, which, again, 00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:58.480 is another. It took me a long time to learn all 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.400 these damn knots, but it paid off. And then you 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.779 start doing a lot of body recoveries, unfortunately. 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:09.119 We have a lot of, I don't know how to say it, 00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:11.460 but anyway, man, a lot of illegals, per se, and 00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:15.819 they can't swim well. And some of the flatter 00:21:15.819 --> 00:21:18.259 parts of water, like the ponds, they just walked 00:21:18.259 --> 00:21:20.259 out and just kept walking out. It gets deeper, 00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:22.380 but they keep walking out, and they literally 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:24.599 die, and the water is just above their head. 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.910 That's it. And we got a lot of those. You just 00:21:27.910 --> 00:21:29.950 go in maybe with a pipe pole or just a quick 00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:32.730 john boat and pull them out. Whatever you have, 00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:36.049 any kind of flotation. But then the floods, man, 00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:38.269 the floods were something else in 2009. That 00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:40.869 was really different. Definitely had some rescues. 00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:43.230 And like I said, when the river is flowing, man, 00:21:43.250 --> 00:21:46.069 at full, that dam is open, there is no explanation. 00:21:47.490 --> 00:21:50.150 It just, it is relentless. It's the most powerful 00:21:50.150 --> 00:21:52.539 thing in the world. Fire fighting is incredible, 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.319 but definitely a water rescue is pretty phenomenal, 00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:58.460 man. And in 2009, we had the floods here, which 00:21:58.460 --> 00:22:01.220 was the storm of 500 years. It was exactly like 00:22:01.220 --> 00:22:04.079 what happened to Texas. And we got it, man. In 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.400 2009, I was on the team, and it was a hell of 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.700 a night, to say the least. Talk to me about that 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:10.500 night. What were some of the notable rescues 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:14.440 or heroism or community that you witnessed? Definitely, 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.180 man. We can go into this, and I'll do my best. 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:23.000 It still screws me up sometimes. Anyway, so it's 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:25.500 porn, man. It was porn for like three days. And 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.839 just, you know, the ground's super saturated 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.039 and all that. So we go to work, and you're like, 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:31.880 oh, it's not too bad. Just pounding off the metal 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:34.339 roof, the tin roof. So we go to bed about 11 00:22:34.339 --> 00:22:36.019 o 'clock at the first dispatch. You get wrung 00:22:36.019 --> 00:22:37.500 out. You know, you try to get some sleep because 00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:39.140 you're figuring, but you don't know what the 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:40.619 hell's going to go on here. I think we got like 00:22:40.619 --> 00:22:43.039 20 inches in like an hour. It was insane. You 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:47.220 know, just this god storm from Moses, basically. 00:22:48.220 --> 00:22:50.579 So, yeah, man, we get to work. And first rescues 00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:52.440 are pretty simple. We had to get the boat to 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.160 this place. I think it was the Yellow River. 00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:56.680 And we almost lost the boat. When we started 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:58.599 going across the bridge to get to where everything 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:01.359 was, the water was so high, it almost took our 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:04.740 boat right off the back. But we made it, man, 00:23:04.819 --> 00:23:07.099 and we started roping in, and people were just 00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:10.079 stuck on porches and houses. So in the beginning, 00:23:10.099 --> 00:23:11.519 it was pretty simple. We started a rope system, 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.359 you know, kind of walk across. welcome back and 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:17.940 we're high -fiving man like this is great like 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.140 we got this you know we're like this is so easy 00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:23.180 man but uh that was only the beginning man and 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:25.799 then uh those were the days of the map books 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.720 so it was comical and we were like 30 miles away 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:31.180 from our first end so nobody knew where the hell 00:23:31.180 --> 00:23:33.359 they were going and then we would drive somewhere 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.019 and you couldn't go there because the water was 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:37.839 too high and i'm like okay get the map book out 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:39.799 man and start trying to find where these people 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.650 are calling and every single call was for swift 00:23:42.650 --> 00:23:44.609 water at this point we're the only boat in the 00:23:44.609 --> 00:23:47.549 water yet the backup team was not deployed so 00:23:47.549 --> 00:23:49.769 i don't know how many of us were in there probably 00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:53.789 eight of us uh anyway so yeah man just started 00:23:53.789 --> 00:23:55.930 getting crazier and crazier and crazier and um 00:23:55.930 --> 00:23:59.430 just different rescues uh we had to tie off to 00:23:59.430 --> 00:24:01.230 the ladder trip one time man and pull some people 00:24:01.230 --> 00:24:05.250 off and uh the craziest call is um if it's okay 00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:07.450 if i tell it is all right yeah it's the same 00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:10.289 way that you'd like yeah man so uh we get this 00:24:10.289 --> 00:24:13.769 call And it was it was a dam broke in the area. 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:16.589 And that's it just didn't make sense. You know, 00:24:16.589 --> 00:24:18.730 we talk about trauma. The mind can't process 00:24:18.730 --> 00:24:20.369 some shit. It just can't. Like when we have a 00:24:20.369 --> 00:24:23.210 huge, horrible pediatric fatality, your mind 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:26.170 kind of splits. It doesn't comprehend it goes 00:24:26.170 --> 00:24:29.029 into that protection mode. And then, you know, 00:24:29.069 --> 00:24:32.130 we go to the next call. But that's just the protection 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:34.069 defense of the human body. It's pretty incredible. 00:24:34.609 --> 00:24:37.289 So we get out there, man. And we have like two 00:24:37.289 --> 00:24:41.299 firefighters, maybe four cops. and maybe four 00:24:41.299 --> 00:24:43.759 civilians trapped on a house. So we're like, 00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:46.940 okay, it's ours. It's all our guys, too. So we 00:24:46.940 --> 00:24:49.119 start setting up, set an attack team out there, 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:51.079 man, and they start roping off, and there's nothing. 00:24:51.180 --> 00:24:53.220 This water is, like, probably three to four feet 00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:55.700 high, and it is flying, and it just doesn't make 00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:56.920 sense. We're in the middle of, like, a damn road. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:58.359 Like, where the hell is all this water coming 00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:01.539 from? Well, a dam broke so many miles down. And 00:25:01.539 --> 00:25:03.539 when they made it to the house, James, it's a 00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:05.980 two -story house. The water was on the roof. 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:10.000 So, again... How the hell is this water 24 foot 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.920 in the air flowing over a house? Like nobody 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.779 can comprehend it. So the attack team needed 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:17.579 more help. So I went out there. I was on the 00:25:17.579 --> 00:25:20.279 second team. We started getting calls from boards. 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:21.640 Like they're kind of boogie boards. I don't know 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:24.099 if you know what those things are. Yep. Yep. 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:26.599 Okay. Tying all your damn rope systems. You find 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:28.359 out what the hell doesn't work real quick in 00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:30.079 this shit. You start cutting rope systems that 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.220 are useless in a real life has a funny way of 00:25:33.220 --> 00:25:36.859 changing theory. Let's just say that. So guys 00:25:36.859 --> 00:25:38.740 are figuring it out, man. And you just had to 00:25:38.740 --> 00:25:40.920 make some swims. And the first team was like, 00:25:41.019 --> 00:25:42.819 you know, you got to go 15 feet. And that water 00:25:42.819 --> 00:25:46.200 was flying and make the jump. And it was like, 00:25:46.299 --> 00:25:49.279 OK, James, make the jump, man. And, you know, 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:51.220 we probably should be dead here because we were 00:25:51.220 --> 00:25:53.660 probably not going to see you again because strainers 00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:55.720 in the water, trees going by, too, because remember, 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.799 a dam broke and you're just going to get caught 00:25:57.799 --> 00:25:59.359 up. But they made it, man. And we were able to 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.269 tie some rope systems there, too. Guys are swimming 00:26:02.269 --> 00:26:05.329 and carrying gear, too. Again, like a gun, the 00:26:05.329 --> 00:26:08.490 water is the ultimate equalizer. No matter what 00:26:08.490 --> 00:26:10.190 shape you're in, what skill level, it's going 00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:13.670 to make you work, man. So we got to these guys. 00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:16.410 We got the civilians all first, of course. Then 00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:18.170 we got the police officers, man. Those dudes 00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:20.950 were freaking out. I didn't understand why, but 00:26:20.950 --> 00:26:23.549 I didn't care because we had rescues to do. We 00:26:23.549 --> 00:26:25.930 had our two guys still, too. And we got them 00:26:25.930 --> 00:26:28.910 back, and then we got our two guys back, too. 00:26:30.130 --> 00:26:31.890 Like, man, we got to go back. And it was just 00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:34.690 the craziest silence, man. It was almost like 00:26:34.690 --> 00:26:37.170 an evil. I can't explain it. The quiet was just 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:39.809 it was just the water. And it was like something 00:26:39.809 --> 00:26:42.609 else out there, man. It was real strange. But 00:26:42.609 --> 00:26:44.890 to make a long story short, man, we made it back. 00:26:44.990 --> 00:26:47.430 We got all the systems back and then had a couple 00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:49.210 more rescues that night where we had to go swim 00:26:49.210 --> 00:26:52.630 out to a car. The backup team was at a different 00:26:52.630 --> 00:26:55.170 place where a woman was stuck in the car. And 00:26:55.170 --> 00:26:57.230 they actually had her on the phone, the battalion 00:26:57.230 --> 00:26:59.450 chief and the lieutenant. talking to her like 00:26:59.450 --> 00:27:00.670 they're coming they're coming they're coming 00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:02.910 and she died with them on the telephone man so 00:27:02.910 --> 00:27:06.349 you know heavy heavy trauma for them too man 00:27:06.349 --> 00:27:11.329 you know on the phone with her and uh so we kept 00:27:11.329 --> 00:27:14.049 going man and we got our people out of our cars 00:27:14.049 --> 00:27:16.730 but the backup team lost that person and uh we 00:27:16.730 --> 00:27:19.470 probably had 30 maybe at least 30 rescues that 00:27:19.470 --> 00:27:21.589 night and uh most of us should have been dead 00:27:21.589 --> 00:27:25.220 that's the bottom line Crazy. With the phone 00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:27.619 call, it reminds me Beth Bowersox I had on the 00:27:27.619 --> 00:27:30.140 show. She was a dispatcher at the Paradise Fire. 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.619 And that is, you know, the unsung heroes of the 00:27:33.619 --> 00:27:35.279 first responders are the people on the end of 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.900 the line. Because they are so helpless and they 00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:39.440 don't get closure. A lot of times they don't 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.359 know. Did the line go dead because they hung 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:43.559 up because we showed up? Or did it go dead because, 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:46.440 you know, they were consumed by fire? So, yeah, 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:52.220 awful. It is, man. One of those things, too. 00:27:52.339 --> 00:27:54.720 So, you know, went home. That was the only time 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.579 they said you can't go home because you guys 00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:58.539 are it. Like, you're not going home until these 00:27:58.539 --> 00:28:01.480 floods recede. And, again, you go up this storm 00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:04.400 of 500 years. The damage was insane. How many 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:06.859 billions of dollars and how many lives were lost. 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.480 But we killed it, man. We crushed it in that 00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:11.480 regard. And different swift water rescue teams 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.759 around the areas, they did awesome, too. We did 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.099 as best we could, for sure. And when I went home, 00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:20.059 man, that's when shit hit. Like, that fatigue. 00:28:21.049 --> 00:28:23.589 Everything finally hit, and then the depression 00:28:23.589 --> 00:28:28.289 and mental health definitely struck me. I definitely 00:28:28.289 --> 00:28:30.150 learned about that later when we had to go to 00:28:30.150 --> 00:28:33.390 the diffusing and the debriefings. That was just 00:28:33.390 --> 00:28:36.470 beyond eye -opening, man. I went home, and again, 00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:39.890 my dad's a combat vet. He was. I talked to him 00:28:39.890 --> 00:28:42.450 on the phone, and I'm telling him what's happening, 00:28:42.470 --> 00:28:44.509 and he just cut me off. He said, Dennis, you're 00:28:44.509 --> 00:28:48.130 in combat. For him to say that, never, ever. 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.940 And he looked at me and he stopped me in my tracks, 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.920 said, you were just in combat. Move on. It's 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:54.380 over. And, you know, he didn't want to talk about 00:28:54.380 --> 00:28:56.140 it anymore. But I'll never forget that either. 00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:00.500 You mentioned about the police being the police 00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:02.359 freaking out. Was there a specific reason you 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.160 uncovered or was it just simply the situation? 00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:06.980 We did, man. We did. Can we go to the debriefing? 00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:10.119 Is that OK? Yeah, please. Yeah, man. So this 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:12.119 this is crazy. And again, it's in my book. This 00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:14.819 is definitely fucked me up, dude. So we go to 00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:17.210 the debriefing and it's up. The chief's like, 00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:18.869 Hey, I need you guys. Sorry about cursing. I 00:29:18.869 --> 00:29:22.670 apologize. No, you can curse. I usually do. So, 00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:27.109 um, you know, it's probably, uh, back then it 00:29:27.109 --> 00:29:28.349 was probably two weeks later. It was a little 00:29:28.349 --> 00:29:30.230 too late, but that's fine. And like, you guys 00:29:30.230 --> 00:29:31.809 need to go. We're like, we're not going, you 00:29:31.809 --> 00:29:33.789 know, we're running calls. We're too cool. We're 00:29:33.789 --> 00:29:35.630 tight based. Like the chief's like, you're going, 00:29:35.750 --> 00:29:37.769 you'll be there. I'm picking you all up. But 00:29:37.769 --> 00:29:40.089 that was that crew, man. The crew was. Just jam 00:29:40.089 --> 00:29:42.190 up awesome dudes, man. You know how it is. When 00:29:42.190 --> 00:29:43.730 you get the specialty teams, man, those guys 00:29:43.730 --> 00:29:45.750 want to be there, and you're going to drag them 00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:48.190 out. So we're thinking, okay, we're going to 00:29:48.190 --> 00:29:51.630 go and meet maybe five, six people. That was 00:29:51.630 --> 00:29:55.490 our first legit debriefing, man. It was dispatch, 00:29:55.789 --> 00:29:57.569 every police officer. I don't even know if there 00:29:57.569 --> 00:30:01.450 was – it was probably 40, 50 people, man. And 00:30:01.450 --> 00:30:06.369 that's where I got a taste of what this job was. 00:30:06.450 --> 00:30:08.029 And I've been in – officer involved shooting 00:30:08.029 --> 00:30:10.329 i've been on a uh line of duty death i wasn't 00:30:10.329 --> 00:30:11.730 even two years on with our first line of duty 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:14.589 so i've been on bad calls but this was where 00:30:14.589 --> 00:30:17.650 mental health got me man this is where because 00:30:17.650 --> 00:30:20.789 everyone had to do their their talk so they came 00:30:20.789 --> 00:30:23.589 to you and you can skip so i dispatch said theirs 00:30:23.589 --> 00:30:25.789 and like you said it was intense man i was like 00:30:25.789 --> 00:30:29.710 i had no idea i had no idea You know, radio is 00:30:29.710 --> 00:30:31.809 going dead, but it wasn't dead for this time 00:30:31.809 --> 00:30:34.170 for someone was dead. It was going dead because 00:30:34.170 --> 00:30:37.170 of water and the heavy rain. So and of course, 00:30:37.210 --> 00:30:40.069 dispatch is losing their minds and because they 00:30:40.069 --> 00:30:42.170 love us. You know, they do. They truly love us. 00:30:42.549 --> 00:30:45.069 And I didn't I never I never knew that because 00:30:45.069 --> 00:30:47.250 you're always yelling at them. Talk better, louder. 00:30:48.069 --> 00:30:51.109 So it was really good to hear their perspective. 00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:55.150 And then the cops got up, man, and they were 00:30:55.150 --> 00:30:57.970 screwed up. And I think they all quit not that 00:30:57.970 --> 00:30:59.750 long after. And I didn't understand why. One 00:30:59.750 --> 00:31:02.930 guy got carried by the water. I think his face 00:31:02.930 --> 00:31:05.009 got stuck to a fence and electrocuted, burned 00:31:05.009 --> 00:31:09.230 his entire face. But again, water is the great 00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:12.930 equalizer, man. And when they did their speech 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:16.769 as a man to a man, it hit me. It haunted me. 00:31:17.289 --> 00:31:21.630 Because I realized that we're not superhuman 00:31:21.630 --> 00:31:26.500 anymore. And afterwards, man, it was time for 00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:28.720 our talk. Not one of us on the damn team talked. 00:31:28.819 --> 00:31:30.900 Not one. And we should have. But we were too 00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:33.460 screwed up from these cops who were so honest. 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:35.980 And they were like, I don't think I'm doing this 00:31:35.980 --> 00:31:38.819 job anymore to 50 strangers. And I was like, 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:41.319 holy shit. You're going to hear a pin drop in 00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:43.880 that room. And none of us talked and we should 00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:47.400 have. But, you know, whatever. And then so at 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:50.460 the very end, man, we're breaking up and we're 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.670 all like no one's no one's cutting up. You know, 00:31:52.690 --> 00:31:55.269 because we know. We just got punched in the face 00:31:55.269 --> 00:31:56.849 is what happened. That's what this job does to 00:31:56.849 --> 00:31:59.369 you. Those cops came up to us and wanted to thank 00:31:59.369 --> 00:32:04.089 us. Bro, they broke down. It was tough. And they 00:32:04.089 --> 00:32:08.670 were like, hey, ma 'am, I'm only here because 00:32:08.670 --> 00:32:11.910 of you, my daughter. And that's tough to take, 00:32:11.990 --> 00:32:15.819 ma 'am, when you hear that. It's beautiful at 00:32:15.819 --> 00:32:17.700 the same time though. I mean, this is what all 00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:19.980 the training culminates for is, is, you know, 00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:21.839 we might have this once in an entire career. 00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:25.000 Yep. It is, man. And every time we talk about 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.740 it, it's still like when you make that influence 00:32:26.740 --> 00:32:28.900 on someone's life and they're like, my kid wants 00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:32.259 to thank you. It's like, shit, man. Like you, 00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.220 you, you, you know, and then, um, you know, then 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:37.319 you really, you did your job, man. You did, you, 00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:39.720 you did what you're supposed to do and you affected 00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:42.900 the guys next to you. Not just a civilian. Now 00:32:42.900 --> 00:32:44.819 you've saved those lives. And they all quit, 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.839 man. They all quit. And that's what really hit 00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:49.980 me. I was like, it's not my identity all of a 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:52.599 sudden. You know, it's not. So it was tough, 00:32:52.700 --> 00:32:56.660 man. Talking and listening to what you're saying, 00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:59.240 it reminds me, when I went to my first apartment, 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:02.240 which was Hialeah, we had to do a pretty stringent 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.200 swim test. I mean, genuinely, like, you know, 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.940 laps underwater and some basic towing and all 00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:09.559 that kind of thing. And I had a lifeguard background, 00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:13.430 so I was okay with it. but Hialeah has canals 00:33:13.430 --> 00:33:15.390 running down it. And so you're not really in 00:33:15.390 --> 00:33:17.970 long bodies of water. I think there was one pond 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:20.730 in one of the parks, Amelia Earhart Parks. We 00:33:20.730 --> 00:33:23.269 did some diving in that, but they had, every 00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:26.990 rig had scuba tanks. So every one of us was expected 00:33:26.990 --> 00:33:30.269 to do some sort of dive rescue. Right. And then 00:33:30.269 --> 00:33:32.529 we did like a kind of a very condensed version 00:33:32.529 --> 00:33:35.670 up to rescue diver. And I already had my advanced 00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:37.630 then, but we didn't get the rescue syrup. But 00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:39.190 again, you know, we're doing dive training for 00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:42.150 like a full week and in the shittiest places, 00:33:42.210 --> 00:33:46.750 not in a beautiful ocean. But it really made 00:33:46.750 --> 00:33:48.650 me think because when I worked for Orange County, 00:33:48.730 --> 00:33:50.750 which is the one around Orlando, there are lakes 00:33:50.750 --> 00:33:54.849 everywhere. And there was no requirement to be 00:33:54.849 --> 00:33:56.529 able to swim whatsoever. And I ended up getting 00:33:56.529 --> 00:33:59.509 assigned to a boat station. My engineer was a 00:33:59.509 --> 00:34:03.289 former lifeguard as well. And there was no training. 00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.960 No training on, you know, like official training 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.920 on how to drive the boat, back it into the lake, 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.980 how to go in, how to backboard in the water. 00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:15.619 You know, none of that stuff. So we obviously 00:34:15.619 --> 00:34:17.599 ended up putting our own training together. And 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:19.280 I would argue we were probably the best trained 00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.239 crew of the three shifts at the time. But we 00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:25.019 would have people float into the station that 00:34:25.019 --> 00:34:27.440 had no idea. And some of them couldn't even swim. 00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:30.139 So you put that in that situation. Someone's 00:34:30.139 --> 00:34:32.679 drowning. And this person is either fumble fucking 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:34.119 trying to get the boat in the water in the first 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.139 place or they can get to the person, but they 00:34:36.139 --> 00:34:38.860 can't actually get in and pull them out. So it's 00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:40.320 something that we don't really discuss in the 00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.079 fire service as much. And don't get me wrong. 00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:44.519 If you're in a place with zero bodies of water, 00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.360 then I get it. You don't need a swim test. But 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.900 for anyone, you know, where you have lakes and 00:34:49.900 --> 00:34:52.579 ponds and rivers and streams and canals, you 00:34:52.579 --> 00:34:54.679 know, that really should be a prerequisite for 00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:57.699 any position. Yeah, and we trained hard, man. 00:34:57.780 --> 00:34:59.739 You had swimming pool training, I think, every 00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:01.719 Tuesday or Wednesday, whatever it was. So you 00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:04.420 were swimming there, too, and almost every ship, 00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:07.139 you were taking the boat out. So at least three 00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:09.179 guys, four guys took the boat out on the hooch, 00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:11.159 and everyone else ran all the calls, and then 00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:13.139 next shift, you guys swapped out. So, yeah, man, 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.599 you're always getting your driver training in, 00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:18.159 rescue diver, whatever it was. So, no, man, guys, 00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.639 everyone knew their roles well, but when the 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:23.719 floods came, everyone knew exactly where they 00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:25.849 were going, too. Like you don't, it's not, it's 00:35:25.849 --> 00:35:28.230 not training time, man. This is go time. So yeah, 00:35:28.269 --> 00:35:31.769 good training. Now that department had a good 00:35:31.769 --> 00:35:35.030 chief roads that came right when I left and they 00:35:35.030 --> 00:35:37.869 were developing skin diver into rescue diver. 00:35:37.949 --> 00:35:40.190 Now they have actual programs in place. But, 00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:41.889 you know, when I was there, it was all the way 00:35:41.889 --> 00:35:44.809 up to 2013 and there was nothing at that time. 00:35:44.889 --> 00:35:46.889 So it's crazy to think, you know, we'll talk 00:35:46.889 --> 00:35:49.190 about the mental health and the lack of, you 00:35:49.190 --> 00:35:51.510 know, conversations and tools there. Well, even 00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:54.010 operationally, how many departments are kind 00:35:54.010 --> 00:35:56.889 of winging, you know, brush fires, water rescues, 00:35:56.889 --> 00:35:59.929 et cetera. Totally. And that's where you get 00:35:59.929 --> 00:36:01.429 your good crews, man. And they're like, we'll 00:36:01.429 --> 00:36:03.269 take our own training, which is still today, 00:36:03.349 --> 00:36:04.869 as you know. We'll take our own training in our 00:36:04.869 --> 00:36:07.909 own hands. And that's the beauty of before us, 00:36:07.929 --> 00:36:10.429 the guys who wrote the policies and do this stuff. 00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:11.969 You always got to give them credit and thank 00:36:11.969 --> 00:36:14.590 those guys. But yeah, man, training is everything. 00:36:14.750 --> 00:36:18.349 You will not rise up, man. You're training. And 00:36:18.349 --> 00:36:20.409 especially on the water, you have zero chance. 00:36:20.590 --> 00:36:24.409 The river doesn't care. You mentioned this. What 00:36:24.409 --> 00:36:26.289 were some of the things that you were taught? 00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:29.409 would work in training that didn't seem to work 00:36:29.409 --> 00:36:31.389 in the real world at least the application that 00:36:31.389 --> 00:36:34.429 you were in well you had like z rigs and prusiks 00:36:34.429 --> 00:36:36.989 and stuff like that and people the water people 00:36:36.989 --> 00:36:39.210 know this and knots people man there was zero 00:36:39.210 --> 00:36:42.670 time and safeties and backup safeties no get 00:36:42.670 --> 00:36:45.409 rid of them and the seconds count like seconds 00:36:45.409 --> 00:36:47.750 do count man i remember i just remember having 00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:49.469 a knife and cutting prusiks all they get to get 00:36:49.469 --> 00:36:51.230 rid of this crap right now get rid of it no no 00:36:51.230 --> 00:36:53.250 time at all you know you're two to one three 00:36:53.250 --> 00:36:56.400 to one uh advantages just there was just nothing 00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.400 man when the first the first guys who went out 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:00.159 the first team i give them all the credit man 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:03.239 i was second team these guys had to set up and 00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.099 there was nothing like okay is that street sign 00:37:06.099 --> 00:37:07.739 going to hold us and they're waiting out man 00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:09.800 they could have been pulled out at any time and 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:12.699 just shot downstream and uh they just found anchor 00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:15.599 points man and they we just figured it out with 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.599 not systems but as far as backups and everything 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:19.460 you didn't have time and you're carrying rope 00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:21.559 too it's like carrying a host you still only 00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.230 have 250 feet of inch and three quarters the 00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:26.469 same thing of this this rope if you're tying 00:37:26.469 --> 00:37:28.710 backup backup backups you're losing you know 00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:30.610 rope it's the same thing you just don't have 00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:32.909 time and you're extending yourself so i would 00:37:32.909 --> 00:37:36.250 say the prusik was definitely one we uh cut and 00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:38.250 got rid of and again it has its purpose this 00:37:38.250 --> 00:37:40.190 is just a totally different unique situation 00:37:41.469 --> 00:37:43.750 Well, I mean, that seems to be the contrast between, 00:37:43.869 --> 00:37:46.030 for example, a hazmat operation, which we all 00:37:46.030 --> 00:37:49.469 know is far slower than we realize until we start 00:37:49.469 --> 00:37:51.809 training with those guys. But I've said this, 00:37:51.809 --> 00:37:54.449 for example, you have someone trapped under a 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:56.909 car and you pull on scene. Do you want to be 00:37:56.909 --> 00:38:01.190 pulling out airbags and cribbing? Or are you 00:38:01.190 --> 00:38:04.070 a crew that trains a lot? You put your back to 00:38:04.070 --> 00:38:06.590 the car. you lift the car while someone slides 00:38:06.590 --> 00:38:08.849 that person out i mean there has to be a point 00:38:08.849 --> 00:38:12.250 where you know yes if you have the time for redundancy 00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:14.550 and safety absolutely it makes perfect sense 00:38:14.550 --> 00:38:17.030 if you're going to be going between two buildings 00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:18.909 and someone's in a stokes basket and you've got 00:38:18.909 --> 00:38:21.309 time then yeah you do you want to make as safe 00:38:21.309 --> 00:38:24.010 as possible but You know, there's certain areas 00:38:24.010 --> 00:38:26.150 where, I mean, we see an FDNY when they do those 00:38:26.150 --> 00:38:28.909 rope rescues over the side. That's just one guy 00:38:28.909 --> 00:38:30.750 belaying off the top and the other one's just 00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:33.869 kind of wrapped around his waist or her waist. 00:38:34.210 --> 00:38:36.730 So, yeah, I think that's an important conversation 00:38:36.730 --> 00:38:39.349 because we have the cops that will kick in a 00:38:39.349 --> 00:38:42.190 door and a fire and go in there with no protection 00:38:42.190 --> 00:38:44.269 and pull someone out and they'll get an award. 00:38:44.889 --> 00:38:47.309 And the fire service, if you don't go in with 00:38:47.309 --> 00:38:49.650 your partner, you're freelancing and you get 00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:53.539 written up. Exactly. Well, we have this place 00:38:53.539 --> 00:38:55.280 that's called Drowning Rock because when the 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.000 river comes up, it flows. It comes up really 00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.559 high, and it's a huge rock. But when it flows, 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:01.139 the river doesn't care. It goes up probably at 00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:03.780 least 10, 12 foot, way over the rock. So you 00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:05.380 have fishermen who fish out there, and they ignore 00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:08.340 the sirens. One rescue we had, and they're wearing 00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:10.059 waders, so they're dead. You know, that water 00:39:10.059 --> 00:39:12.780 catches them. They're gone. And Drowning Rock 00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:16.119 for a reason. Just to talk about theory and practice, 00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:18.280 man, you're on a time frame. So that call comes 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:19.920 out. You've got to bunker out. You've got to 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.659 get all your ropes up on this. You've got to 00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:25.539 go. And this guy has minutes, right? And we're 00:39:25.539 --> 00:39:27.400 pretty close. But anyway, we get out there, and 00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:28.940 we see the guy out there on the rock. Water's 00:39:28.940 --> 00:39:30.659 coming up. Water's coming up. And there's a huge 00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:33.239 strainer, which is a tree that went down. You 00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:35.780 can't see. It's got all of its—basically, if 00:39:35.780 --> 00:39:37.099 you fall in water, you're dead. It pulls you 00:39:37.099 --> 00:39:39.159 and just kills you. And he's right next to a 00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:42.360 strainer, too. And our driver, man, phenomenal. 00:39:42.909 --> 00:39:44.070 He's, you know, he's getting the boat close, 00:39:44.130 --> 00:39:45.690 getting the boat close, but we can't get close 00:39:45.690 --> 00:39:48.309 enough. And I'm the rescue guy. And again, theory 00:39:48.309 --> 00:39:49.849 is he's going to jump in the boat. We're just 00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:51.969 going to pull him in. Well, we get about a foot 00:39:51.969 --> 00:39:53.929 away, which is incredible because we can't have 00:39:53.929 --> 00:39:56.369 anything get sucked up into the boat or kill 00:39:56.369 --> 00:39:59.230 us dead in the water. This guy, then instead 00:39:59.230 --> 00:40:02.449 of I go to grab him, he pulls back, pulls me 00:40:02.449 --> 00:40:05.050 head first into the damn tree. That knocks me 00:40:05.050 --> 00:40:08.969 unconscious. And I'm like, my other rescue driver 00:40:08.969 --> 00:40:11.829 falls in the water. I'm like, well, this guy's 00:40:11.829 --> 00:40:14.250 dead. And now I have pretty much a concussion, 00:40:14.289 --> 00:40:16.429 so I grab this dude. I'm pissed as shit. Throw 00:40:16.429 --> 00:40:18.949 him on the ground. Shake it off. I'm like, where 00:40:18.949 --> 00:40:21.690 the hell is our rescue diver? He's, thank God, 00:40:21.769 --> 00:40:23.809 awesome. He's on top of one of the damn tree 00:40:23.809 --> 00:40:25.909 limbs. So we go and get him and get back. But, 00:40:25.969 --> 00:40:28.050 yeah, man, I had a concussion. I went back to 00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:30.909 the doctors. I had a huge contusion. But that's 00:40:30.909 --> 00:40:32.789 real life, man. People freak out, and they will 00:40:32.789 --> 00:40:34.710 kill you, especially in the water, just like 00:40:34.710 --> 00:40:38.860 that. Do the public know it's called Drowning 00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:40.519 Rocks? That sounds like a fucking awful place 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:42.920 to go fishing. They do. It'd be like going to 00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.639 Herpes Corner. I wouldn't go there either. Of 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:47.360 course they do. It's like, let's go there and 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.900 go fish. Yes, they do, unfortunately. One more 00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:57.900 thing in Swiftwater. I got to go up to the Guardian 00:40:57.900 --> 00:41:00.360 Center in Georgia a few years ago and get a tour. 00:41:01.750 --> 00:41:04.190 Amazing. Absolutely incredible. The training 00:41:04.190 --> 00:41:06.869 potential of that facility. With you being in 00:41:06.869 --> 00:41:08.690 Georgia and being Swiftwater, did you ever train 00:41:08.690 --> 00:41:11.309 over there? Never. No, we trained. Everything 00:41:11.309 --> 00:41:14.050 was in -house and on the Chattahoochee. And we 00:41:14.050 --> 00:41:16.769 would actually go to Six Flags in Cobb County 00:41:16.769 --> 00:41:18.849 and all the Swiftwater teams would go there and 00:41:18.849 --> 00:41:20.889 train. So it was pretty incredible. So you had 00:41:20.889 --> 00:41:23.539 the best of the best, man, once a year. And it 00:41:23.539 --> 00:41:25.699 was either two or three days of training with 00:41:25.699 --> 00:41:27.940 everybody. So you got great mutual training, 00:41:27.980 --> 00:41:30.219 man, with everybody. So if you had a big incident, 00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:32.360 you knew exactly who everybody was, too. And 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.860 everyone was on the same page, man. So it was 00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:37.820 really good stuff. Gotcha. What about martial 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:39.659 arts? You kind of alluded to that early in life. 00:41:39.739 --> 00:41:41.980 I've been a lifelong martial artist myself. What 00:41:41.980 --> 00:41:44.519 was the first one that you did? And walk me through 00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:46.380 the progression, how you ended up teaching defensive 00:41:46.380 --> 00:41:49.679 tactics. Sure, sure, man. So I was in high school. 00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:52.199 It's funny. I went to high school with two Japanese 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.000 friends and very strict Japanese household mothers 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:58.119 from Japan. So they're like, we're going to introduce 00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:00.260 you to a martial art. And that was like going 00:42:00.260 --> 00:42:01.920 into heaven. Like they would never introduce 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.349 you to their sensei or whatever. So I go like, 00:42:05.429 --> 00:42:07.050 we think you're ready. You know, this is how 00:42:07.050 --> 00:42:08.889 you got to act because I'm, you know, like a 00:42:08.889 --> 00:42:10.409 dumb Westerner. I'm going to say something stupid. 00:42:10.489 --> 00:42:13.889 Right. So bring me into this old, old Aikido 00:42:13.889 --> 00:42:15.750 school where the guy actually trained with Osensei, 00:42:15.750 --> 00:42:18.789 the founder. And man, it was awesome. It was 00:42:18.789 --> 00:42:20.869 just beat down. It was old school martial arts. 00:42:21.010 --> 00:42:23.849 And I was like, I am hooked. You know, I'm loving 00:42:23.849 --> 00:42:25.389 this. I was already playing ice hockey and all 00:42:25.389 --> 00:42:27.630 that. But I'm like, this is this is exhausting. 00:42:28.510 --> 00:42:30.769 And, um, just incredible. They brought this Marine 00:42:30.769 --> 00:42:32.329 guy came and he was like, I want to check this 00:42:32.329 --> 00:42:34.070 out. I don't believe in this guy. Instructors 00:42:34.070 --> 00:42:36.289 like, okay, let's go, man. He beat the hell out 00:42:36.289 --> 00:42:38.130 of this Marine. This dude was huge for like two 00:42:38.130 --> 00:42:40.969 or minutes. And the Marine submitted, which was 00:42:40.969 --> 00:42:43.070 insane. And I'll never forget. Cause I know my 00:42:43.070 --> 00:42:45.010 dad is a Marine. Like there was no way in hell 00:42:45.010 --> 00:42:46.369 when this guy tapped out, it was like, I was 00:42:46.369 --> 00:42:48.570 done. I was like, what? Like it was, it wasn't 00:42:48.570 --> 00:42:50.750 even fathomable. And this was probably, you know, 00:42:50.750 --> 00:42:53.630 late eighties. I was like, damn, man, I'm digging 00:42:53.630 --> 00:42:55.989 this pretty good. So trained in that for years, 00:42:56.170 --> 00:42:59.449 man. Um, a long time. Then I got a kind of Okinawan 00:42:59.449 --> 00:43:02.389 karate shuriru. Got into that a little bit. I 00:43:02.389 --> 00:43:05.389 kind of like the harder style, too. And eventually 00:43:05.389 --> 00:43:09.429 I've trained in everything, man. Just seminars 00:43:09.429 --> 00:43:12.550 all over the place, too. And again, Brazilian 00:43:12.550 --> 00:43:15.369 jiu -jitsu, some jiu -jitsu then, too. Went to 00:43:15.369 --> 00:43:18.610 Japan in 2012. Did some competing and training 00:43:18.610 --> 00:43:21.829 over there. And then got into defensive tactics. 00:43:21.949 --> 00:43:25.130 It's just a natural progression, man. I've told 00:43:25.130 --> 00:43:27.510 this on here a few times. What was funny for 00:43:27.510 --> 00:43:30.909 my journey is, you know, I did Shotokan originally. 00:43:32.630 --> 00:43:35.449 WTF Taekwondo originally, then Shotokan for a 00:43:35.449 --> 00:43:38.809 while, then ITF Taekwondo, which I won national 00:43:38.809 --> 00:43:41.050 titles. And I'm like, okay, well, I must be somewhat 00:43:41.050 --> 00:43:42.889 decent at fighting. And then I went to boxing 00:43:42.889 --> 00:43:45.849 and got murdered and realized I wasn't. And then 00:43:45.849 --> 00:43:48.210 started kickboxing and then was doing my tippy 00:43:48.210 --> 00:43:51.090 -tappy Taekwondo stuff and got my standing leg 00:43:51.090 --> 00:43:53.429 completely destroyed. And okay, well, I'm not 00:43:53.429 --> 00:43:55.960 good at that either. Then got into jujitsu and 00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:57.519 then like, oh, and then if you fall down, I'm 00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.440 terrible at that too. So it was like this constant, 00:43:59.780 --> 00:44:02.159 you know, humbling. Now there is that cumulative, 00:44:02.260 --> 00:44:05.039 you know, knowledge, of course. The martial arts, 00:44:05.059 --> 00:44:07.179 the taekwondo served me well doing the stunts 00:44:07.179 --> 00:44:09.679 that I did my whole career as well. But it was, 00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:12.239 you know, it was a kind of deconstructing of 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:14.239 everything you've learned and trying to, you 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.340 know, refine what actually will work, you know, 00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:19.480 and what works for you. Like I'm long, I'm not 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:22.119 super powerful. So, you know, what is your style 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.380 in the end? What has been your journey from Aikido 00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:28.219 originally, which I did for a few months, from 00:44:28.219 --> 00:44:30.039 Aikido all the way through to where you are today? 00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:33.780 Man, it's been long. It's nonstop. I don't roll 00:44:33.780 --> 00:44:36.199 like BJJ anymore, really. My body's beat up, 00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:38.519 man. I mean, this job has destroyed me too. I 00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:40.519 definitely need some surgeries and stuff, but 00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:43.219 I still put, I have my own garage gym and I still 00:44:43.219 --> 00:44:45.179 do what you would call an MMA in there. I got 00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:47.760 heavy bags and do a lot of heavy kegs and put 00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:49.599 everything together now, man. But no, it was 00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:51.840 an introspective journey, like you said. You 00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:54.219 find out what works and doesn't work, and you 00:44:54.219 --> 00:44:56.280 have to drop your ego when some dude can whoop 00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:57.539 your ass because there's always someone better 00:44:57.539 --> 00:45:00.719 than you all the time. Just get rid of that ego. 00:45:00.900 --> 00:45:04.260 The biggest thing is, as a beginner, just know 00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:06.920 it's going to be okay. Just tap out fast, learn 00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:09.699 something, and just keep – and that's why I always 00:45:09.699 --> 00:45:12.340 used to go to different seminars, man, and just 00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:14.280 learn from different people. Always wore a white 00:45:14.280 --> 00:45:16.579 belt. I didn't care. Hey, do you train? Nope, 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:18.360 don't train in anything. And just go in there 00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:21.510 and learn their style for a day or two. Just 00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:23.469 take it for what it was, man. But, you know, 00:45:23.610 --> 00:45:27.289 I would say us old school guys are pretty much 00:45:27.289 --> 00:45:29.949 original MMA because we were always doing different 00:45:29.949 --> 00:45:32.190 stuff in that regard. We were always trying to 00:45:32.190 --> 00:45:34.230 be more well -rounded. Boxing, like you said, 00:45:34.329 --> 00:45:37.429 hitting stuff, always striking. And when you 00:45:37.429 --> 00:45:39.070 go to the Aikido seminar, then they'll be like, 00:45:39.090 --> 00:45:40.550 you guys don't do Aikido. Like, yeah, we do. 00:45:40.630 --> 00:45:43.530 And nothing you do here is Aikido. Like, yeah, 00:45:43.530 --> 00:45:45.670 man, it's just the real stuff. And like, yeah, 00:45:45.730 --> 00:45:48.090 you're really not welcome here. So we also got 00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:52.079 that side too. Yeah, the Aikido I did, I really 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:54.000 loved it, but it was called Ki Aikido. And it 00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:57.179 was kind of a lot of that, grab my hand, no, 00:45:57.219 --> 00:45:59.659 no, no, grab the other hand. Oh yeah, know it 00:45:59.659 --> 00:46:02.480 well. You definitely got an introduction into 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:06.139 using someone else's force, which, I mean, that 00:46:06.139 --> 00:46:07.960 applies to a lot of things. There is value to 00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.960 that. Obviously some of the wrist locks and the 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.440 places that the joints can go and can't go. So 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:16.039 it was really, really good. But yeah, that was 00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:18.500 very reminiscent of it worked well if you came 00:46:18.500 --> 00:46:21.179 in this one particular. playing with this right 00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:24.820 arm versus you know what we see in in the the 00:46:24.820 --> 00:46:28.000 madness of a real fight where you know the original 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.099 barrage you're just trying to survive and then 00:46:30.099 --> 00:46:31.800 whatever you can grab hold of you're like okay 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:33.840 i think i know where i am now and that's where 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:36.940 you really start you know going and fd definitely 00:46:36.940 --> 00:46:39.000 taught me a lesson all the years in fd i would 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.659 definitely put it together uh you know you have 00:46:41.659 --> 00:46:44.559 someone on drugs or diabetic that you couldn't 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:46.019 get a wrist lock on that person like they were 00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:47.179 they're trying to kill you because they have 00:46:47.179 --> 00:46:50.690 no idea What is happening to them? And then once 00:46:50.690 --> 00:46:52.230 I eventually got into police work, you know, 00:46:52.230 --> 00:46:54.090 it's full -on fights, man. It's very different, 00:46:54.150 --> 00:46:56.789 too. You know, it's survival. In the dojo, whatever, 00:46:57.030 --> 00:46:58.670 you're not killing this person. There's always 00:46:58.670 --> 00:47:01.110 a tap -out. There's a choke -out. No, man, in 00:47:01.110 --> 00:47:03.110 police work, they're trying to kill you. It's 00:47:03.110 --> 00:47:06.190 very different. Different mentality. I had Tony 00:47:06.190 --> 00:47:08.849 Blauer on several years ago now. Talk to me about 00:47:08.849 --> 00:47:11.610 Spear and how you value that in the overall system. 00:47:11.829 --> 00:47:14.050 Oh, my God, man. Very, like you said, very eye 00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:16.309 opening to order martial artists, black black 00:47:16.309 --> 00:47:18.849 belt. And, you know, during COVID, we couldn't 00:47:18.849 --> 00:47:21.630 train. No one could train anymore. So I found 00:47:21.630 --> 00:47:25.469 Tony online, man. And I started doing Zoom classes. 00:47:25.530 --> 00:47:27.670 I'm like, this is so dumb. Like, how is this 00:47:27.670 --> 00:47:30.650 going to work for martial arts? But Tony, his 00:47:30.650 --> 00:47:32.949 situational awareness and the way his mindset 00:47:32.949 --> 00:47:35.860 approaches things is. It's second to none, man. 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.920 Him and Chief Pearson, just unbelievable, man, 00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:41.820 what they say. And then they take our job, basically, 00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:43.739 and relate it. Because Tony pretty much, he's 00:47:43.739 --> 00:47:46.219 trained SEALs, Delta Force. He's trained everybody. 00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.800 And when you start seeing that and the mindset 00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:52.400 that he gets you for, the fear loop. The fear 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.360 loop's incredible. He talks about when we play 00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.719 sports. He's like, I'm this good, but why am 00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:58.980 I always afraid? And that was the same thing. 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.519 And I played ice hockey forever. I was a goalie, 00:48:01.539 --> 00:48:04.170 man. And it's a total. mind screw at all times 00:48:04.170 --> 00:48:05.849 like i'm making all these saves but that negativity 00:48:05.849 --> 00:48:07.590 still in the back of my head like what is going 00:48:07.590 --> 00:48:10.670 on here man and he just he just really good with 00:48:10.670 --> 00:48:13.769 addressing the mind and and real fights and how 00:48:13.769 --> 00:48:16.550 they happen so close and non -violent posture 00:48:16.550 --> 00:48:18.289 so yeah man started training with tony for years 00:48:18.289 --> 00:48:20.489 online until we got back into gear and then a 00:48:20.489 --> 00:48:22.429 couple years ago went up and trained with him 00:48:22.429 --> 00:48:24.750 in york pennsylvania and got my uh spear certification 00:48:24.750 --> 00:48:28.369 and uh man for for police work and firefighters 00:48:28.369 --> 00:48:32.289 i i cannot recommend it enough It is just outstanding. 00:48:32.489 --> 00:48:34.909 It's a mindset. And it's making, it's not a martial 00:48:34.909 --> 00:48:37.190 art. It's a total mindset. He calls it the airbag. 00:48:37.489 --> 00:48:41.070 It's a shock where it gets your flinch response 00:48:41.070 --> 00:48:44.469 into action. And it's incredible because it's 00:48:44.469 --> 00:48:46.750 what Tony always says. It's not what you think 00:48:46.750 --> 00:48:48.070 what you're going to do. It's what you're going 00:48:48.070 --> 00:48:50.130 to do. If a spider drops on the ceiling, you're 00:48:50.130 --> 00:48:52.050 going to do this. Everyone says, well, I wouldn't 00:48:52.050 --> 00:48:53.949 blink. Okay. And then you drop something on their 00:48:53.949 --> 00:48:56.389 head and they go like this. It's human nature, 00:48:56.510 --> 00:49:00.949 man. And he just plays off that body. body mechanics 00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:03.190 and his again his thought process is incredible 00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:06.489 beautiful well you mentioned law enforcement 00:49:06.489 --> 00:49:10.190 so what made you transition from the fd side 00:49:10.190 --> 00:49:13.389 to the pd side uh you know definitely the trauma 00:49:13.389 --> 00:49:17.489 uh horrendous command staff uh just absolutely 00:49:17.489 --> 00:49:19.530 horrendous they they definitely start targeting 00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:21.869 people and going after you and it was my turn 00:49:21.869 --> 00:49:25.010 for the bullseye man you know when these are 00:49:25.010 --> 00:49:27.110 these are just bad people these are evil people 00:49:27.110 --> 00:49:30.530 and um There's a lot documented, but anyway, 00:49:30.670 --> 00:49:34.329 when the job is getting to you and then your 00:49:34.329 --> 00:49:36.090 command staff is definitely after you, things 00:49:36.090 --> 00:49:39.369 are a whole other different level, man. Mandatory 00:49:39.369 --> 00:49:41.929 overcame in 2013, and they still do it now a 00:49:41.929 --> 00:49:44.710 lot. 48 hours on, 24 hours off. Nobody knows. 00:49:44.869 --> 00:49:48.550 Keep it down low. But they're probably working. 00:49:48.610 --> 00:49:52.309 A new guy is probably working seven to eight 00:49:52.309 --> 00:49:56.969 shifts extra a month. A month. Exactly. So they 00:49:56.969 --> 00:49:59.849 don't give two shits. Give me two or three years 00:49:59.849 --> 00:50:03.469 out of you now, and that's it. So when that started, 00:50:03.630 --> 00:50:06.710 I tell everyone this story. I was at the original 00:50:06.710 --> 00:50:08.809 meeting. I'm like, this can't fly. Like, oh, 00:50:08.829 --> 00:50:10.070 it'll be okay. I'm like, it'll never be okay. 00:50:10.210 --> 00:50:12.670 It'll never go away. Still going on today, 13 00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:15.809 years later. My daughter said she was like seven. 00:50:16.429 --> 00:50:18.369 I was missing another birthday. And she said, 00:50:18.510 --> 00:50:21.369 it's okay, Dad. We're used to you not being here. 00:50:21.510 --> 00:50:25.630 She had no idea. And I was like, F my life. This 00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:28.170 is it. This is it. Me and my wife, we're done. 00:50:28.409 --> 00:50:32.469 And then that was it. So that's when the transition. 00:50:32.630 --> 00:50:35.150 But no, they definitely helped push us out, too. 00:50:35.230 --> 00:50:39.750 They definitely went on to the other side. When 00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:41.610 you reflect back now, because what you're talking 00:50:41.610 --> 00:50:44.230 about is Marion County here, is Orange County. 00:50:44.429 --> 00:50:46.389 I mean, you know, these are departments that, 00:50:46.389 --> 00:50:49.670 you know, when I was at Orange was 08 to 2013. 00:50:49.909 --> 00:50:52.449 And when I was there in 08, it was mandatory 00:50:52.449 --> 00:50:54.789 all the time, especially. They were screaming 00:50:54.789 --> 00:50:56.809 for medics. I put myself through medical school. 00:50:56.849 --> 00:51:00.130 They gave me zero tuition reimbursement or support 00:51:00.130 --> 00:51:03.530 and then put me in the meat grinder as well. 00:51:03.670 --> 00:51:05.690 I mean, it was that organizational betrayal that 00:51:05.690 --> 00:51:09.610 we talk about. But what really just blows my 00:51:09.610 --> 00:51:11.690 mind, I think maybe I even alluded to this in 00:51:11.690 --> 00:51:14.789 that last article, I can't remember, but I don't 00:51:14.789 --> 00:51:18.500 understand how... You were once in a fire academy 00:51:18.500 --> 00:51:21.340 with everyone else wearing bunker gear and doing 00:51:21.340 --> 00:51:23.239 the tunnels, you know, doing the collapse mazes 00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:26.219 and all these things. And then fast forward 10, 00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:29.559 15 years later, you're pushing papers in a desk, 00:51:29.579 --> 00:51:31.980 knowing that the men and women, you know, that 00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:36.639 working under you are getting crucified, really 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:39.199 working hours because of your mismanagement. 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:42.719 And you still sleep finer at night. I do not 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.159 understand that outside of that is also a mental 00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:47.019 health issue that we're not addressing. Because 00:51:47.019 --> 00:51:49.619 only a sociopath would be able to sleep when 00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:51.119 their men and women are being worked into the 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:53.320 ground. And that's what I call the evil side. 00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:56.980 So I'll tell you, it was in 2017, it got so bad. 00:51:58.139 --> 00:52:00.119 And, you know, I call them the sheeple. Those 00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:02.420 are the guys who agree with the chiefs no matter 00:52:02.420 --> 00:52:04.500 what. Well, he's a good guy. He just can't do 00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:06.719 anything. No, he's in a freaking leadership position. 00:52:06.920 --> 00:52:09.019 It's his damn job to do a lot better than this. 00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:11.420 So they started saying, you know, the chief's 00:52:11.420 --> 00:52:13.869 supposed to be up. The shift changes at 7. Chief's 00:52:13.869 --> 00:52:15.889 supposed to be up at 6 a .m., having manpower 00:52:15.889 --> 00:52:17.530 locked out. So you knew if you were on mandatory 00:52:17.530 --> 00:52:19.429 or you were not. So people would call, like, 00:52:19.469 --> 00:52:22.050 do I have to stay late? I have a life. So finally, 00:52:22.130 --> 00:52:24.130 they said after six months, the chiefs were tired 00:52:24.130 --> 00:52:25.889 of this because no one was working anymore. They 00:52:25.889 --> 00:52:28.829 said, do not call us ever again. So if you called 00:52:28.829 --> 00:52:30.650 the chief to see if you had to work mandatory, 00:52:30.809 --> 00:52:32.670 you were written up. So they would put paper 00:52:32.670 --> 00:52:36.309 on you, too. Then it finally became the next 00:52:36.309 --> 00:52:38.789 year, you had to find your own staffing in the 00:52:38.789 --> 00:52:41.550 morning. You had to find your own damn manpower. 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:45.159 to go home if you wanted to go home. So I'll 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:46.659 tell you a story about a guy. He quit shortly 00:52:46.659 --> 00:52:48.719 after, thank God. Phenomenal dude, and he helped 00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:52.579 me definitely get out. So this buddy finds his 00:52:52.579 --> 00:52:54.960 driver because, you know, only guys can drive 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.340 certain apparatus and all that. He gets James 00:52:57.340 --> 00:52:59.300 to come in to work. So he's like, yeah, James 00:52:59.300 --> 00:53:00.719 has got me covered 7 o 'clock tomorrow morning. 00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:04.239 7 .05 comes. He's not there. 7 .15, he's still 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:05.500 not there. He's calling. The guy's not answering. 00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:07.079 They're basically telling this guy don't answer 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:09.320 the phone. He finally calls the chief. They're 00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:10.980 like, why are you calling me? He's like, uh has 00:53:10.980 --> 00:53:12.900 anyone seen this guy he's like yeah i took him 00:53:12.900 --> 00:53:14.940 i moved him somewhere else you're staying anyway 00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:19.840 and he's like god yes so he found his own manpower 00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:21.960 they said thanks for doing my job because i'm 00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:25.380 useless and he said okay no problem he had to 00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:26.860 stay till like noon then went home and he's like 00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:28.960 i'm done he quit so it was great good for him 00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:31.659 man but that's how bad it became and it's still 00:53:31.659 --> 00:53:34.960 horrible but they hide it very well well this 00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:36.619 is what blows my mind you know you've probably 00:53:36.619 --> 00:53:38.900 seen the stuff that i put out trying to help 00:53:39.369 --> 00:53:43.010 these departments go to 24 72 and again i'm merely 00:53:43.010 --> 00:53:45.590 just you know creating the conversation bringing 00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:47.690 resources on the physical side the mental side 00:53:47.690 --> 00:53:50.250 and then departments have done it it is not james 00:53:50.250 --> 00:53:52.349 gearing doing this by any means it's the amazing 00:53:52.349 --> 00:53:54.349 men and women these departments have the balls 00:53:54.349 --> 00:53:56.750 to say yeah it's not working let's do something 00:53:56.750 --> 00:53:59.909 different yep but when and i'm just about to 00:53:59.909 --> 00:54:01.130 get the gains of all guys on they're supposed 00:54:01.130 --> 00:54:03.090 to be this morning but they had to reschedule 00:54:03.090 --> 00:54:06.360 but now we're having departments telling you 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.719 know, what a huge success this is. And, you know, 00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:10.380 the money that they're saving and that every, 00:54:10.420 --> 00:54:12.699 you know, there's no vacancies now. Every single 00:54:12.699 --> 00:54:17.099 spot that's filled, like Pasco County was three 00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:20.800 shifts understaffed two years ago. Now they're 00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.880 four fully staffed shifts. And about two weeks 00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:26.820 ago, they went to 2472. Two years. And it's a 00:54:26.820 --> 00:54:29.079 county, all they had was a six -week Kelly before. 00:54:29.460 --> 00:54:33.170 That's it. Incredible. When you have these answers, 00:54:33.429 --> 00:54:35.949 this is what drives me crazy. And I relate to 00:54:35.949 --> 00:54:39.909 your friend because when my last shift, I finally 00:54:39.909 --> 00:54:42.070 got to get off the rescue and be on the engine, 00:54:42.170 --> 00:54:46.030 riding up, driving for a shift, ran a code, got 00:54:46.030 --> 00:54:48.469 back and was told, actually, you're going to 00:54:48.469 --> 00:54:50.889 be on the rescue the rest of the shift and you're 00:54:50.889 --> 00:54:53.429 on the bubble to be mandatory. And I'm a single 00:54:53.429 --> 00:54:56.329 dad at this time. And I've gone through the process 00:54:56.329 --> 00:54:58.190 with another department and I'm still waiting 00:54:58.190 --> 00:55:00.250 to do the medical. And I was like, you know what? 00:55:00.289 --> 00:55:03.289 Fuck this. You cannot tell a single father that 00:55:03.289 --> 00:55:05.670 he can't go home to his child. It doesn't fucking 00:55:05.670 --> 00:55:09.909 work like that. They don't care. So I was like, 00:55:09.969 --> 00:55:11.630 all right, well, I'm not going to be here next 00:55:11.630 --> 00:55:13.750 shift because I fucking quit. And I put my papers 00:55:13.750 --> 00:55:17.349 in right there and then took the leap, luckily 00:55:17.349 --> 00:55:20.449 passed the medical, which I was assuming I would, 00:55:20.530 --> 00:55:22.809 and then got hired at the other place. But it 00:55:22.809 --> 00:55:25.050 was just one of those things where... you know 00:55:25.050 --> 00:55:27.550 people have lives people have marriages people 00:55:27.550 --> 00:55:29.989 have relationships with their children and promises 00:55:29.989 --> 00:55:33.909 to be at events that you are destroying and you 00:55:33.909 --> 00:55:37.670 go home at five o 'clock every night so anyone 00:55:37.670 --> 00:55:39.309 that's listening that's in that position look 00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:41.409 yourself in the mirror and and ask yourself how 00:55:41.409 --> 00:55:44.889 the fuck is that fair it's not and so either 00:55:44.889 --> 00:55:47.829 one of two things either a You kind of have a 00:55:47.829 --> 00:55:49.530 realization. You say, you know what? You're right. 00:55:49.610 --> 00:55:51.269 We have to actually do something about it. This 00:55:51.269 --> 00:55:53.889 isn't fair. And this is why I'm making the salary 00:55:53.889 --> 00:55:57.530 that I am with the bugles on my shirt. Or, you 00:55:57.530 --> 00:55:59.550 know, that's why I'm the union president or vice 00:55:59.550 --> 00:56:01.309 president, because some of them are fucking awful 00:56:01.309 --> 00:56:05.590 too. It's time for me to step up. Or B, you realize 00:56:05.590 --> 00:56:07.929 that you just don't have the guts to be in that 00:56:07.929 --> 00:56:09.710 position. You need to step down, let someone 00:56:09.710 --> 00:56:12.250 with a set actually do it. Because these are 00:56:12.250 --> 00:56:15.070 real human lives. And we all know that sleep 00:56:15.070 --> 00:56:18.130 deprivation. is directly correlated with everything 00:56:18.130 --> 00:56:21.429 from obesity and testosterone depletion to cancer, 00:56:21.610 --> 00:56:26.130 suicide, and addiction. Yep. Absolutely, man. 00:56:26.269 --> 00:56:28.150 And, you know, it's funny, and I'm sure you, 00:56:28.289 --> 00:56:30.530 because it was the other guy, when he walks out, 00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:32.210 all the guys are like, well, he sold us out, 00:56:32.289 --> 00:56:34.090 man. That's where we eat our own, too. Like, 00:56:34.170 --> 00:56:35.730 that guy, he shouldn't have been here anyway. 00:56:35.869 --> 00:56:38.590 He wasn't ready for this job. No, man. That's 00:56:38.590 --> 00:56:40.809 the only damn guy who had balls and said, I'm 00:56:40.809 --> 00:56:42.329 done with this shit. I'm getting out of here, 00:56:42.409 --> 00:56:45.349 man. Yeah, and it's not a lack of love of the 00:56:45.349 --> 00:56:48.210 job. We all love the job. Oh, God, absolutely. 00:56:48.610 --> 00:56:50.150 Were you told that you were going to work 80 00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:52.849 hours a week in Fire Academy? I wasn't. Nope. 00:56:52.949 --> 00:56:54.949 So it's not the job. It's the working conditions. 00:56:55.070 --> 00:56:57.989 And the guys now, men and women in Pasco County 00:56:57.989 --> 00:57:00.010 and Gainesville, they're working 42 hours a week 00:57:00.010 --> 00:57:03.730 and loving the job. And they are rested and chomping 00:57:03.730 --> 00:57:06.889 at the bit to get back for the next shift. That's 00:57:06.889 --> 00:57:09.050 how it's supposed to be. And who gets better 00:57:09.050 --> 00:57:11.610 care? The civilians, the public. It just all 00:57:11.610 --> 00:57:14.309 works. Yep. Instead of this is how we've always 00:57:14.309 --> 00:57:18.440 done things, suck it up. Yep. 100%. Well, I want 00:57:18.440 --> 00:57:20.099 to go to your mental health journey, but let's 00:57:20.099 --> 00:57:22.619 just continue the career story. So you take the 00:57:22.619 --> 00:57:26.300 leap from FD to PD. Talk to me about that transition 00:57:26.300 --> 00:57:30.000 and then what was the leadership that you were 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.800 under in that? Night and day, man. Thank God. 00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:36.380 I would say my first 10, 12 years, the Chiefs 00:57:36.380 --> 00:57:38.260 were phenomenal in FD. Just phenomenal. Like 00:57:38.260 --> 00:57:40.820 you talked about, they did what you did and they 00:57:40.820 --> 00:57:43.940 carried it on. They were incredible. Unfortunately, 00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:46.360 we transitioned to these horrible individuals 00:57:46.360 --> 00:57:48.739 from other departments, brought them in, weren't 00:57:48.739 --> 00:57:50.800 really firefighters, full -time paramedics, and 00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:53.000 didn't care much for the fire side. Well, this 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:56.260 is a 1 ,100 -person department of all firefighting, 00:57:56.260 --> 00:57:58.860 so that didn't go too well. So they took over, 00:57:58.980 --> 00:58:01.800 man, and I started transitioning. I'm like, I 00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:03.039 got to get out of this. So I started looking 00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:05.880 at Orson, got into Orson, couldn't get a job 00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:07.360 with the department, so I transitioned over to 00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:09.619 our PD department. So I made a couple guys, and 00:58:09.619 --> 00:58:12.119 we get hired by the police department, same county. 00:58:12.539 --> 00:58:14.940 get a picture taken for post, all that, go through 00:58:14.940 --> 00:58:16.780 all the testing, have my final interview, waiting 00:58:16.780 --> 00:58:19.179 on the chief interview. And I'm still waiting. 00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:21.119 I'm like, something's wrong. I already know if 00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:24.199 this place is going to, you know, can't let you 00:58:24.199 --> 00:58:26.940 go. We're too short. You know, all of our staffing 00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:28.980 problems that we created can't let you go to 00:58:28.980 --> 00:58:31.500 the police side now. So you're stuck here. I'm 00:58:31.500 --> 00:58:34.960 like, no. But meanwhile, I was like, nope. So 00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.760 did my time, got all my PTO out of the way, took 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.480 off it. And I had 18 years, man, so a lot of 00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:44.039 PTO to burn. So eventually got out, went to the 00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:46.539 police side. Just night and day, man. I definitely, 00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:49.079 again, I love the fire side. Nothing bad to say. 00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:50.860 I just have bad things to say about the command 00:58:50.860 --> 00:58:53.219 staff people. Loved who I worked with, phenomenal 00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:55.760 folks. And police side was just very different. 00:58:55.780 --> 00:58:59.239 More military, for sure. Definitely more structured, 00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:02.989 more. And I really like that part. I do like 00:59:02.989 --> 00:59:05.630 that. And then defensive tactics. Towards the 00:59:05.630 --> 00:59:07.309 end, we had a lot of staging instead. I'm not 00:59:07.309 --> 00:59:09.250 a big stager. I don't care for that at all. I 00:59:09.250 --> 00:59:11.349 like the police side where I can just go right 00:59:11.349 --> 00:59:12.929 in the front damn door and handle things too. 00:59:13.090 --> 00:59:15.969 That's who I am. I love it. So yeah, man, got 00:59:15.969 --> 00:59:19.190 on the PD side. Really, really loved it. I had 00:59:19.190 --> 00:59:21.789 some crazy calls, of course. One of my first 00:59:21.789 --> 00:59:23.429 things I want to do is drop my medic. I'm like, 00:59:23.449 --> 00:59:25.230 I'm done with EMS shit. I'm done. I don't have 00:59:25.230 --> 00:59:27.110 to do this. I'm a police officer, right? I think 00:59:27.110 --> 00:59:29.110 it was my third shift in. I get a cardiac arrest 00:59:29.110 --> 00:59:32.030 10 minutes by myself. Nobody. So I'm like, you 00:59:32.030 --> 00:59:33.650 know what? I think I'm going to keep my EMS. 00:59:34.469 --> 00:59:38.829 It's kind of handy. Yeah. So I might have been 00:59:38.829 --> 00:59:41.909 done with it, but God had other plans. So it 00:59:41.909 --> 00:59:45.329 was, man. And it was good for the past. The firefighters 00:59:45.329 --> 00:59:47.110 were like, who the hell is this dude? What are 00:59:47.110 --> 00:59:48.949 you saying to us? You're saying medic terms and 00:59:48.949 --> 00:59:51.949 all that. So it was funny, man. So, yeah. And 00:59:51.949 --> 00:59:53.789 I've continued my medic. I'm going to be a medic 00:59:53.789 --> 00:59:56.190 25 years here at the end of this year. So still 00:59:56.190 --> 00:59:59.429 do my medic too. As you know, we beat Fire in 00:59:59.429 --> 01:00:00.929 a lot. We're just faster in their bunker and 01:00:00.929 --> 01:00:02.710 out. So we beat them to a lot of scenes. So it 01:00:02.710 --> 01:00:05.690 has definitely paid off, to say the least, man. 01:00:05.789 --> 01:00:08.210 It's been good. Did you ever do the SWAT medic 01:00:08.210 --> 01:00:11.630 stuff? I did not. No. My wife swore once I got 01:00:11.630 --> 01:00:13.250 off Swiftwater that there's never going to be 01:00:13.250 --> 01:00:15.809 a specialty team in my life. I've tried. If you 01:00:15.809 --> 01:00:17.349 could work on her, that would be great. But she's 01:00:17.349 --> 01:00:22.210 not letting me do it. So what about from the 01:00:22.210 --> 01:00:24.610 shift point of view, the transition from the 01:00:24.610 --> 01:00:27.090 mandatory world to what you're working as a cop? 01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:29.739 Yeah, it was great. I don't think I did overtime 01:00:29.739 --> 01:00:31.679 the first two years, like hardly ever. It was 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:33.480 awesome. You know, it was absolutely incredible. 01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:36.360 Now you're 12 on. It's a different schedule. 01:00:36.420 --> 01:00:38.340 Sometimes it's two on, two off, two on, three 01:00:38.340 --> 01:00:40.900 off. It kind of rotates, but I love it. You know, 01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:43.679 our bodies, I'm so used to shift work that I 01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:45.480 just loved it. Absolutely. The only time you 01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:47.780 got stuck on a call was like a bad fatality or 01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:50.139 a murder. And then you were just waiting on someone 01:00:50.139 --> 01:00:52.579 to relieve you. But no, man, they want you out 01:00:52.579 --> 01:00:55.340 the door. And it was also flex time too. So if 01:00:55.340 --> 01:00:58.110 James stays till 7 .05. You're leaving five minutes 01:00:58.110 --> 01:00:59.570 early tomorrow. And they want to make sure of 01:00:59.570 --> 01:01:02.429 that, too. So, oh, my God, just night and day, 01:01:02.530 --> 01:01:04.769 man. And just what a relief to what a relief. 01:01:05.650 --> 01:01:08.010 Well, let's talk about your mental health journey 01:01:08.010 --> 01:01:11.050 then. So you obviously told the post -Swiss water 01:01:11.050 --> 01:01:13.670 story. You know, where where were some of the 01:01:13.670 --> 01:01:16.949 lowest points that you got to? Definitely, you 01:01:16.949 --> 01:01:19.690 know, your child, your child deaths, man. My 01:01:19.690 --> 01:01:24.239 real low was we had. I can't remember. It's in 01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:26.500 my book. I think we had eight fatalities in 12 01:01:26.500 --> 01:01:30.460 days, maybe five kids. And man, I just hit it. 01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:32.619 I hit my low, start drinking like a damn heavy. 01:01:33.300 --> 01:01:36.780 Because alcohol works. And that's the problem. 01:01:37.159 --> 01:01:39.539 So what happens when something works? We do more 01:01:39.539 --> 01:01:41.719 and more and more. And then it doesn't work. 01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:44.420 And now you're in trouble, man. So a lot of fatalities. 01:01:44.460 --> 01:01:46.659 I asked for help. Went to the chief. I still 01:01:46.659 --> 01:01:48.119 remember the conversation. I said, hey, man, 01:01:48.219 --> 01:01:53.840 my crew is... Phenomenal. Station 11, man. Top 01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:57.420 notch. We run 85 -285 in Georgia, which is one 01:01:57.420 --> 01:01:59.159 of your busiest interstates, probably in the 01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:01.579 world, second to LA. And I'm like, we need some 01:02:01.579 --> 01:02:03.820 help. And he's like, I don't think so, man. I 01:02:03.820 --> 01:02:05.340 think the guys are good. I'm like, I'm the lieutenant. 01:02:05.579 --> 01:02:08.380 I'm telling you, I know my crew. So he just yells 01:02:08.380 --> 01:02:11.920 out, hey, do you need help over there? And of 01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:13.760 course, everyone's cutting up. Chief, I'm good. 01:02:14.199 --> 01:02:17.559 And I'm like, what the hell is this? He said 01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:19.380 he's good, lieutenant. Nothing else to say here. 01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:23.260 And that was like, wow, okay. So I knew I was 01:02:23.260 --> 01:02:27.260 hitting a low, man. And I just knew I needed 01:02:27.260 --> 01:02:28.840 to look in the mirror. I definitely had to start 01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:30.699 looking in the mirror. I actually wrote a letter 01:02:30.699 --> 01:02:34.300 to the deputy chief. I said, this crew is struggling. 01:02:34.500 --> 01:02:36.579 I'm one of them. I still had the letter. I might 01:02:36.579 --> 01:02:38.380 have trashed it a couple years ago because it 01:02:38.380 --> 01:02:40.860 was just one of those things I held on to. And 01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:43.440 I said, we need help. The deputy chief came back 01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:45.599 and said, you are exactly like the water department, 01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:48.010 P -Shock. You are no different at all, and this 01:02:48.010 --> 01:02:49.469 is what you signed up for. That's what he said 01:02:49.469 --> 01:02:51.909 to me, the water department. I said, that's funny, 01:02:52.010 --> 01:02:53.809 Chief, because I never saw him out at Christmas 01:02:53.809 --> 01:02:56.449 sitting out here in this freezing cold or outside 01:02:56.449 --> 01:02:58.349 of here ever, because he ain't nothing like us 01:02:58.349 --> 01:03:00.590 at all. And no disrespect, they ain't doing shit 01:03:00.590 --> 01:03:02.449 that we're doing on holidays and everything else 01:03:02.449 --> 01:03:05.190 here. So, yeah, this guy didn't care at all for 01:03:05.190 --> 01:03:06.889 any of us. So I went to the chief and the deputy 01:03:06.889 --> 01:03:12.510 chief. So, you know, back then we had CISM, CISD, 01:03:12.530 --> 01:03:14.949 and I was on the team because I had a lot of 01:03:14.949 --> 01:03:17.619 bad calls. Once you get all the bad calls, you 01:03:17.619 --> 01:03:19.800 do a one -day class or whatever, and they're 01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:21.320 like, you're going on this team. You're going 01:03:21.320 --> 01:03:23.820 to go talk to this guy. And so I thought that 01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:25.679 would be better, but it was not good, man. It 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.940 wasn't bad. Probably maybe 2014, 15, we had another 01:03:28.940 --> 01:03:31.800 bad fatality call. I can't remember if the mom 01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:34.400 killed the kid or whatever, but we had CISM come 01:03:34.400 --> 01:03:37.380 in too, and we were not happy. It was accumulation, 01:03:37.659 --> 01:03:39.800 of course. You know, your anger, your frustration, 01:03:40.019 --> 01:03:42.730 you don't know why. And we lashed out at these 01:03:42.730 --> 01:03:44.630 dudes. We're cursing up a storm. And these were 01:03:44.630 --> 01:03:47.469 two guys, headquarters personnel, who never could 01:03:47.469 --> 01:03:49.130 make it in the field. So we talked about that. 01:03:49.210 --> 01:03:51.530 They probably did two years on the job, got up 01:03:51.530 --> 01:03:53.210 to headquarters as fast as they can. And now 01:03:53.210 --> 01:03:55.730 they are both captains, you know, 10 years and 01:03:55.730 --> 01:03:58.929 useless. And they came in this meeting and they 01:03:58.929 --> 01:04:01.670 said, if anyone curses in this meeting again, 01:04:01.750 --> 01:04:04.590 this meeting is over. So these are guys unloading 01:04:04.590 --> 01:04:06.849 on a diffusing, which you're supposed to do. 01:04:07.210 --> 01:04:09.210 So, of course, that brought every F -bomb in 01:04:09.210 --> 01:04:11.449 the world out. from everybody in that meeting, 01:04:11.570 --> 01:04:14.449 they said, this defusing is over. And they walked 01:04:14.449 --> 01:04:16.989 out of the damn station. So we all looked at 01:04:16.989 --> 01:04:18.909 each other like, who's going to help us now? 01:04:19.409 --> 01:04:23.530 Like, I guess we're it. And all we had was anger 01:04:23.530 --> 01:04:25.030 and rage. And they literally got in their cars 01:04:25.030 --> 01:04:29.449 and drove away, man. So I just knew I had to 01:04:29.449 --> 01:04:31.690 continue on and just try to find my own path, 01:04:31.829 --> 01:04:34.670 really. I had to make my own path because there 01:04:34.670 --> 01:04:38.070 was no one to help, man. So talk to me about 01:04:38.070 --> 01:04:40.980 that. What did that look like? What was the accumulation 01:04:40.980 --> 01:04:44.500 of tools that work for you? Uh, yeah. So, um, 01:04:44.500 --> 01:04:46.739 my first, I went to EAP first. I wasn't sure, 01:04:46.820 --> 01:04:48.940 you know, went to my EAP and they're like, okay, 01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:50.900 we're gonna give you a, um, you know, a psychologist 01:04:50.900 --> 01:04:52.860 clinician. So I go there and I tell her about 01:04:52.860 --> 01:04:55.659 a child fatality and she starts crying. I'm like, 01:04:55.739 --> 01:04:58.579 this is not good. So I feel like the biggest 01:04:58.579 --> 01:05:00.440 piece of shit in the world. Cause I just made 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:02.500 the clinician cry. I made everyone else cry in 01:05:02.500 --> 01:05:05.019 my world. Now the clinician is crying and there's 01:05:05.019 --> 01:05:07.360 no one left. So not trauma specific, you know, 01:05:07.380 --> 01:05:09.889 you know, the deal. And, uh, She's like, I'm 01:05:09.889 --> 01:05:12.309 so sorry. I'm like, she's like, I apologize that 01:05:12.309 --> 01:05:13.630 you have to see this stuff every day. I'm like, 01:05:13.650 --> 01:05:16.650 yeah, I do. I got to do it tomorrow too. So that 01:05:16.650 --> 01:05:19.130 meeting ended horribly. So she sent me up with 01:05:19.130 --> 01:05:21.469 somebody else two weeks later. I start telling 01:05:21.469 --> 01:05:23.210 her some stories and I'm unloading, you know, 01:05:23.210 --> 01:05:25.809 and she's like, well, just quit. So I'm like, 01:05:25.829 --> 01:05:27.230 what do you mean? She's like, you need to quit. 01:05:27.610 --> 01:05:29.610 I said, ma 'am, I need this job. At the time 01:05:29.610 --> 01:05:32.469 I had a kid, wife, a house. I said, I can't quit. 01:05:32.750 --> 01:05:35.429 She's like, well, this can't continue. I said, 01:05:35.449 --> 01:05:37.090 this is not an option. And that was her only 01:05:37.090 --> 01:05:41.630 solution for me. No, no tricks, no magic hocus 01:05:41.630 --> 01:05:46.349 pocus, nothing. Quit. So I left her. So I definitely 01:05:46.349 --> 01:05:48.650 have some problems with therapists to say the 01:05:48.650 --> 01:05:51.130 least. And I have no problem saying this right 01:05:51.130 --> 01:05:53.050 now. Therapists need to step up their game. And 01:05:53.050 --> 01:05:54.969 now that I'm a peer support coordinator and I 01:05:54.969 --> 01:05:56.849 deal with a lot and sometimes trauma specific, 01:05:57.050 --> 01:05:59.909 it is not OK that we have to see four or five 01:05:59.909 --> 01:06:03.510 clinicians before we get help. Our suicide rates 01:06:03.510 --> 01:06:06.300 are insane. We're losing people constantly and 01:06:06.300 --> 01:06:08.659 therapists need to do better too. And the saying 01:06:08.659 --> 01:06:11.360 now, I hear it in all the damn seminars. Sometimes 01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:13.019 you got to shop. It's going to take you four 01:06:13.019 --> 01:06:16.840 or five. No. Do I have four or five chances to 01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:19.079 save that kid's life? I got one and you have 01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.300 the same damn responsibility. So step up. That's 01:06:22.300 --> 01:06:24.639 my little thing there. Sorry. Well, I think, 01:06:24.639 --> 01:06:27.030 I mean, you can have. I've had a lot of people 01:06:27.030 --> 01:06:29.010 in that world, you know, they have specialties, 01:06:29.010 --> 01:06:31.730 but the problem is a lot of the good, you know, 01:06:31.730 --> 01:06:35.090 culturally competent clinicians that I know are 01:06:35.090 --> 01:06:37.309 saying that, you know, you'll go on the site 01:06:37.309 --> 01:06:39.010 and they say they specialize in children and 01:06:39.010 --> 01:06:41.389 marriage and first responders and military. And 01:06:41.389 --> 01:06:44.429 that's just bullshit. You know, this is the problem 01:06:44.429 --> 01:06:46.849 is that, you know, if you don't work with us, 01:06:46.869 --> 01:06:48.690 that's great, but then don't advertise that you 01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:51.230 work with us. So then we don't, you know, shop 01:06:51.230 --> 01:06:53.909 that wrong person. But, you know, I know there's 01:06:53.909 --> 01:06:56.949 also a high demand for, you know, mental health 01:06:56.949 --> 01:06:59.150 practitioners in our world. And it is a very 01:06:59.150 --> 01:07:02.610 specific area. Most people, I mean, we talked 01:07:02.610 --> 01:07:04.389 about, you know, some of your worst calls. I 01:07:04.389 --> 01:07:06.489 threw a couple of mine. You know, this is just, 01:07:06.510 --> 01:07:08.789 you know, in a week, you know, we have this week 01:07:08.789 --> 01:07:12.190 in, week out. So it is a very unusual population. 01:07:13.289 --> 01:07:15.849 So, you know, that really should be one of the 01:07:15.849 --> 01:07:18.510 strong tracks in psychology that you can go to, 01:07:18.550 --> 01:07:21.739 but there should be. stipulations that you cannot 01:07:21.739 --> 01:07:24.440 advertise that you are well -versed in our population 01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:26.380 if you are not well -versed in our population 01:07:26.380 --> 01:07:28.780 because i've heard these eap nightmare stories 01:07:28.780 --> 01:07:33.219 so many times exactly and you nailed it you totally 01:07:33.219 --> 01:07:35.739 nailed it i went to one uh last year trauma specific 01:07:35.739 --> 01:07:38.619 said i need a trauma specific clinician no problem 01:07:38.619 --> 01:07:40.940 just put me on hold said how does three weeks 01:07:40.940 --> 01:07:44.300 sound i said three weeks i need to talk to someone 01:07:44.300 --> 01:07:46.940 now like we don't have anybody i'm like Okay. 01:07:47.380 --> 01:07:48.920 Finally, I said, we'll send you somebody in a 01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:50.880 couple days. I waited a couple days. Went in 01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.880 there, talked to him. First thing he wanted to 01:07:52.880 --> 01:07:55.099 do was create a safe space for me. I just want 01:07:55.099 --> 01:07:57.460 you safe. I wanted the mood right. I'm like, 01:07:57.559 --> 01:07:59.900 is someone punking me? Is this a joke? Because 01:07:59.900 --> 01:08:04.800 this is not what we do, man. And it was not good 01:08:04.800 --> 01:08:06.739 either. So that was not a good session either, 01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:09.199 man. And I have someone pretty good now. But 01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:11.739 most of the stuff I found is through getting 01:08:11.739 --> 01:08:14.920 into the peer classes. The journey took me about 01:08:14.920 --> 01:08:17.500 2022. I went to this state Georgia class, and, 01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:19.880 man, it was a hell of a class. It woke me up. 01:08:19.979 --> 01:08:22.060 The stuff they were talking about, I wouldn't, 01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:23.819 like, crawl under my seat because I was like, 01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:26.239 we don't talk about things like this ever. I 01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:29.140 couldn't believe people were actually discussing 01:08:29.140 --> 01:08:32.020 what is really going on. And this was just the 01:08:32.020 --> 01:08:34.460 instructors who would just jam up, man. Of course, 01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:37.140 they were in shootings. They had just horrible, 01:08:37.239 --> 01:08:39.520 horrible calls. And then they brought in the 01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:41.260 guest speakers, man, and the guest speakers, 01:08:41.359 --> 01:08:44.329 like, I was just spellbound. And then it kind 01:08:44.329 --> 01:08:46.130 of hit me, man. I'm like, this is my why. I'm 01:08:46.130 --> 01:08:48.409 going to use all my shitty calls for my entire 01:08:48.409 --> 01:08:51.250 life, and this is it, man. And that got me into 01:08:51.250 --> 01:08:52.989 my why and my purpose in life, and that's what 01:08:52.989 --> 01:08:55.890 I've done now the last four years, man, and that's 01:08:55.890 --> 01:08:58.729 where I am. You mentioned that you finally found 01:08:58.729 --> 01:09:00.409 a counselor that was the right fit. What other 01:09:00.409 --> 01:09:02.470 tools have you found of help for you specifically? 01:09:02.810 --> 01:09:04.930 Oh, yeah, I apologize, definitely. So martial 01:09:04.930 --> 01:09:08.050 arts for sure, PT. PT is everything, man. It's 01:09:08.050 --> 01:09:09.710 probably the only thing that kept me alive when 01:09:09.710 --> 01:09:13.779 no one else could help me. I call it letting 01:09:13.779 --> 01:09:16.859 the demons out, man. Get outside. I have a garage 01:09:16.859 --> 01:09:20.680 gym. We used to have guys who came over for years, 01:09:20.739 --> 01:09:22.840 and we just trained any martial arts. We just 01:09:22.840 --> 01:09:24.399 trained on the ground. I had some mats we threw 01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:26.539 down, and we just threw down for a while. But 01:09:26.539 --> 01:09:28.159 now it's just training my garage. Lift heavy 01:09:28.159 --> 01:09:30.819 kegs. I do a lot of sandbag work, a lot of HIIT 01:09:30.819 --> 01:09:33.220 workouts. Two minutes on, one minute off, just 01:09:33.220 --> 01:09:36.500 super fast. Big into Wim Hof, man. I do breathing. 01:09:37.100 --> 01:09:39.000 I've got to get my breathing in, too. That is 01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:43.289 a necessity. too and then i journalized helped 01:09:43.289 --> 01:09:46.409 me write my book and uh putting things on paper 01:09:46.409 --> 01:09:50.810 really changed my life too um if you don't there's 01:09:50.810 --> 01:09:53.229 it's all bullshit there's no execution once you 01:09:53.229 --> 01:09:55.890 put it on paper and you wrote it and you see 01:09:55.890 --> 01:09:58.229 it it just it's a total game changer too man 01:09:58.229 --> 01:10:01.970 so those three i would say the big things beautiful 01:10:01.970 --> 01:10:04.609 well mentioning the book then you know what what 01:10:04.609 --> 01:10:07.779 gave you the idea to initially actually put together 01:10:07.779 --> 01:10:09.720 the book together and then talk to me about the 01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:14.359 catharsis of any writing sure uh you know trauma's 01:10:14.359 --> 01:10:17.100 funny we talk about it black stuff out it it 01:10:17.100 --> 01:10:19.979 makes stuff disappear and uh if we remember man 01:10:19.979 --> 01:10:22.340 i want to talk about a call uh remember charlotte 01:10:22.340 --> 01:10:24.399 if i if we can get to her just remember charlotte 01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:27.119 because we will do it trauma too thank you anyway 01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:31.020 so uh i felt like trauma was stealing from me 01:10:31.020 --> 01:10:33.189 i called the demons they were cheating me And 01:10:33.189 --> 01:10:34.829 I started, so I would be at work and I would 01:10:34.829 --> 01:10:37.670 start writing emails to myself about calls I 01:10:37.670 --> 01:10:39.489 was on. And I would send the email at home. So 01:10:39.489 --> 01:10:41.789 once I got home, I started saving it into a folder. 01:10:41.869 --> 01:10:43.529 So this was kind of my initial journalization, 01:10:43.630 --> 01:10:47.409 man. And had a hip surgery. I was out for a while. 01:10:47.449 --> 01:10:48.710 I said, man, let's just start this book. And 01:10:48.710 --> 01:10:51.390 that class, that class just blew me away. And 01:10:51.390 --> 01:10:53.210 she said in the class to teachers, she said, 01:10:53.329 --> 01:10:55.529 some of you in here, I'm going to open up your 01:10:55.529 --> 01:10:57.289 filing cabinet. I want you to be aware of that. 01:10:57.350 --> 01:10:58.770 I'm like, this chick don't know nothing, man. 01:10:58.810 --> 01:11:00.210 I remember saying, like, this chick's whacked. 01:11:00.829 --> 01:11:02.710 And then that night, man, James, I went to bed 01:11:02.710 --> 01:11:05.250 and the following cabinet opened and all the 01:11:05.250 --> 01:11:08.310 damn burst that night. Hands down. All the trauma 01:11:08.310 --> 01:11:10.729 came. Every call that I had blocked out, almost 01:11:10.729 --> 01:11:13.770 every call because a lot of calls that I had 01:11:13.770 --> 01:11:15.729 blacked out. So I started making phone calls, 01:11:15.789 --> 01:11:17.270 man. I called my buddy Black Cadillac. I'm like, 01:11:17.329 --> 01:11:19.050 hey, dude, did this happen? He's like, yeah, 01:11:19.090 --> 01:11:21.029 Pete. And then remember this call, this call. 01:11:21.109 --> 01:11:22.750 I'm like, no, I didn't do what you're talking 01:11:22.750 --> 01:11:24.250 about. He's like, you did this, this, and this. 01:11:24.329 --> 01:11:27.270 I'm like, no idea. So I started talking to other 01:11:27.270 --> 01:11:29.340 people just to make sure, man. I was like. Did 01:11:29.340 --> 01:11:31.100 it actually happen, man? Because I literally 01:11:31.100 --> 01:11:32.800 blocked it out. I told you about the defense 01:11:32.800 --> 01:11:36.220 mechanism. So I started writing the book, man, 01:11:36.279 --> 01:11:40.439 and it was tough. You know, I wrote almost, I 01:11:40.439 --> 01:11:42.060 didn't write some of the pediatric calls. They're 01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:44.520 just too much. I just don't want to, I talk about 01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:47.399 them, but I don't want them on paper. It's just 01:11:47.399 --> 01:11:49.460 too much, man. But I wrote some, you know, just 01:11:49.460 --> 01:11:51.039 like you, I wrote some of the really bad calls 01:11:51.039 --> 01:11:53.479 that got in high detail. I talked about the one 01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:55.600 girl who drowned. And I have no problem saying 01:11:55.600 --> 01:11:57.579 it. It took me two weeks to get through that 01:11:57.579 --> 01:11:59.579 chapter and a lot of whiskey. I couldn't get 01:11:59.579 --> 01:12:01.840 through it. And I reached out to another writer, 01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:06.220 man, Michael Sugru. And he doesn't know me. And 01:12:06.220 --> 01:12:08.220 this was special, too. And I said, Michael, I 01:12:08.220 --> 01:12:10.460 read your book. I loved it. But I can't write 01:12:10.460 --> 01:12:12.880 anymore. He wrote me back this incredible email. 01:12:13.000 --> 01:12:14.659 You have to do it. Your story is going to touch 01:12:14.659 --> 01:12:17.779 one person. I was like, here's a celebrity to 01:12:17.779 --> 01:12:20.100 me. Tell me this. And I'm like, and he helped 01:12:20.100 --> 01:12:22.159 me, man. He helped me get over that hump that 01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:25.039 I could not get over. I continued writing, man. 01:12:26.140 --> 01:12:28.680 You got to get naked in a peer support world. 01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:30.500 That's the bottom line. You got to show your 01:12:30.500 --> 01:12:33.760 soul. People know if you're honest and if you're 01:12:33.760 --> 01:12:37.439 full of shit real fast in this world, man. It 01:12:37.439 --> 01:12:39.260 wasn't even a couple days, man. I sent it out. 01:12:39.319 --> 01:12:42.300 I started getting emails and messages about people, 01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:45.220 man, just saying thanks. I was like, wow. Wow. 01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:48.939 It worked. It was for me, for therapy, and one 01:12:48.939 --> 01:12:51.659 person. Then it made it to so many other people, 01:12:51.739 --> 01:12:54.289 man. Just even, you know, it's just incredible. 01:12:54.630 --> 01:12:57.250 It's absolutely incredible. And it's a scary 01:12:57.250 --> 01:12:58.810 journey, man, as you know, because you're putting 01:12:58.810 --> 01:13:00.449 your soul out there and I'm still on the job. 01:13:00.670 --> 01:13:02.810 So I didn't know how that would go. You know, 01:13:02.810 --> 01:13:05.449 they're going to fire my ass right away. But 01:13:05.449 --> 01:13:07.189 it's worked out phenomenal, man. And getting 01:13:07.189 --> 01:13:09.590 my name out there in that regard, get a phone 01:13:09.590 --> 01:13:11.470 call yesterday. Hey, can we talk? I need to talk. 01:13:11.590 --> 01:13:13.569 And they just not unload. They just tell me their 01:13:13.569 --> 01:13:15.430 story and I give them something back, man. And 01:13:15.430 --> 01:13:18.289 it's special, man. And it's really special. I'm 01:13:18.289 --> 01:13:22.960 grateful. I found that with the book. with writing, 01:13:23.079 --> 01:13:26.880 but also with the podcast, it's amazing when 01:13:26.880 --> 01:13:29.359 people come on and they bare their souls and 01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:32.140 you realize that all it is, is trust. That safe 01:13:32.140 --> 01:13:34.020 space of that one guy with the lighting and the 01:13:34.020 --> 01:13:36.600 music, it's not that. It's just, do you feel 01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:38.319 comfortable with this person? Are they willing 01:13:38.319 --> 01:13:41.699 to be vulnerable in the first place? That's it. 01:13:41.939 --> 01:13:44.619 And I'm sometimes just amazed that within... 01:13:44.829 --> 01:13:47.390 minutes of a conversation someone's just telling 01:13:47.390 --> 01:13:50.090 me their deepest darkest story and i'm just like 01:13:50.090 --> 01:13:52.250 i'm humbled by it like what a what a fucking 01:13:52.250 --> 01:13:56.130 honor to be someone that you you know that someone 01:13:56.130 --> 01:13:58.510 feels comfortable enough to really be vulnerable 01:13:58.510 --> 01:14:01.210 really be honest really talk about you know what 01:14:01.210 --> 01:14:02.649 they're going through because that's what we 01:14:02.649 --> 01:14:05.369 need we're all good at the mask that's what we 01:14:05.369 --> 01:14:07.689 do for a living totally but the real courage 01:14:07.689 --> 01:14:11.170 comes from when you take the mask off yes Yeah, 01:14:11.210 --> 01:14:13.529 it is, man. And I've had two or three calls where 01:14:13.529 --> 01:14:15.270 people are in crisis about to end their lives. 01:14:15.670 --> 01:14:18.470 And that is that is the call, man. That's better 01:14:18.470 --> 01:14:20.949 than the rescues. That's better than the that 01:14:20.949 --> 01:14:23.210 is something else, man. I remember telling that 01:14:23.210 --> 01:14:26.170 to somebody and they were like, man, I'm glad 01:14:26.170 --> 01:14:27.670 I'm not you. Like, what do you mean? Like, I 01:14:27.670 --> 01:14:29.810 couldn't handle that call. And I didn't get it. 01:14:29.810 --> 01:14:31.630 I was like, what do you mean? Like, what an honor 01:14:31.630 --> 01:14:33.869 to have somebody reach out to you, literally 01:14:33.869 --> 01:14:36.170 about to blow their fucking brains out. And this 01:14:36.170 --> 01:14:40.229 is the last call. And it was you. It's incredible. 01:14:40.970 --> 01:14:43.850 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But this is what this 01:14:43.850 --> 01:14:45.750 is all about. It's just being there as well. 01:14:45.890 --> 01:14:47.649 And the goal is obviously not to have the call 01:14:47.649 --> 01:14:49.109 when they're about to blow their brains out. 01:14:49.170 --> 01:14:51.909 The goal is to have a call, you know, three clicks 01:14:51.909 --> 01:14:54.529 back so that they're just starting to realize 01:14:54.529 --> 01:14:56.109 there's something wrong and you get to them then. 01:14:56.250 --> 01:14:58.970 Because back to the EAP, you know, you have a 01:14:58.970 --> 01:15:00.890 bunch of numbers pinned on a board. You get someone 01:15:00.890 --> 01:15:03.550 in crisis. They try one and it's disconnected 01:15:03.550 --> 01:15:05.109 now. And they're like, you know what? Fuck it. 01:15:05.170 --> 01:15:07.960 And then they do it. Bingo. And that's it. I've 01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:10.819 said this many times. I've heard a lot of EAP 01:15:10.819 --> 01:15:13.840 nightmare stories. What breaks my heart is how 01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:16.239 many will I never hear? Because after that first 01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:18.119 time, the person was like, well, I am fucked. 01:15:18.260 --> 01:15:20.739 And then they just go and complete suicide. Totally. 01:15:20.779 --> 01:15:22.199 And they make that phone call to you and your 01:15:22.199 --> 01:15:23.859 phone's on do not disturb or hung up. And of 01:15:23.859 --> 01:15:26.199 course, there's the guilt right there. But again, 01:15:26.340 --> 01:15:28.119 you can't be there for everybody. You try, man, 01:15:28.180 --> 01:15:30.680 but you have your own family too that has to 01:15:30.680 --> 01:15:32.760 have some priority or you're going to be dumped 01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:34.159 out of your life. You just need to have enough. 01:15:34.300 --> 01:15:36.750 You got to be able to balance it. Yeah. Well, 01:15:36.770 --> 01:15:38.670 I think this is something I've talked about recently. 01:15:38.869 --> 01:15:41.489 You've got Blake in Georgia. You've got Dustin 01:15:41.489 --> 01:15:44.550 Hawkins. You've got Mark Mycoskie over in Georgia 01:15:44.550 --> 01:15:46.310 as well. A lot of these people who have put themselves 01:15:46.310 --> 01:15:48.890 out there being vulnerable, and they are that 01:15:48.890 --> 01:15:51.430 beacon. But the problem is they become overwhelmed. 01:15:51.670 --> 01:15:54.430 I've seen it firsthand because they're fielding 01:15:54.430 --> 01:15:56.590 all the calls now. And the goal is to have this 01:15:56.590 --> 01:15:59.010 conversation where ultimately it's a buddy system. 01:15:59.550 --> 01:16:03.270 You just literally find one person on the planet 01:16:03.270 --> 01:16:06.550 to be there for, and they're there for you. And 01:16:06.550 --> 01:16:09.069 that way, you know, it's highly unlikely that 01:16:09.069 --> 01:16:10.350 you're going to miss when something's wrong. 01:16:10.449 --> 01:16:12.789 But if everyone else is going about their business 01:16:12.789 --> 01:16:14.569 or we've got the peer support team, they'll handle 01:16:14.569 --> 01:16:16.750 it if there's anything wrong. We're missing the 01:16:16.750 --> 01:16:20.189 entire point of being a human being. 100 percent. 01:16:20.350 --> 01:16:22.329 I started the team, my new police department 01:16:22.329 --> 01:16:24.729 with Milton Police. And they're phenomenal, man. 01:16:24.770 --> 01:16:27.430 Just unbelievable. And I'm the team coordinator 01:16:27.430 --> 01:16:29.770 and putting together the team right now. So in 01:16:29.770 --> 01:16:31.750 Georgia, you have to go to this peer class. It's 01:16:31.750 --> 01:16:34.829 a 40 hour class to be a peer counselor. And I 01:16:34.829 --> 01:16:36.949 put my team together, man. I brought the state 01:16:36.949 --> 01:16:39.710 in. We did interviews. And they go at the end 01:16:39.710 --> 01:16:41.130 of this month. So they'll all be certified. So 01:16:41.130 --> 01:16:43.329 it'll be me plus six. And it's gargantuous. And 01:16:43.329 --> 01:16:44.710 I've already told a couple. I'm like, listen, 01:16:44.770 --> 01:16:47.350 guys, I need you like ASAP. Like, I cannot handle 01:16:47.350 --> 01:16:49.010 all this stuff I'm getting. And I need to be 01:16:49.010 --> 01:16:51.189 able to talk to you and talk to somebody else 01:16:51.189 --> 01:16:53.420 who gets it. Because, you know, you can't spill 01:16:53.420 --> 01:16:55.359 anybody's. This is HIPAA and everything else, 01:16:55.399 --> 01:16:58.159 man. You're in trouble. So I said, I cannot wait 01:16:58.159 --> 01:17:00.279 till you guys are team members, man, so we can 01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:02.479 all share this load. And just be ready, man. 01:17:02.539 --> 01:17:04.140 It's heavy. And they'll go over that in the class. 01:17:04.239 --> 01:17:06.020 Like, you don't understand how heavy it is till 01:17:06.020 --> 01:17:08.760 the trauma stories keep one -upping each other. 01:17:08.779 --> 01:17:11.000 And you're like, good God, really? And then you 01:17:11.000 --> 01:17:14.680 just get stronger, of course, from it. One conversation 01:17:14.680 --> 01:17:16.779 that I've been having recently that I realize. 01:17:17.579 --> 01:17:20.500 In my opinion is the next phase. Now we have 01:17:20.500 --> 01:17:23.319 this, you know, complete naivety, like, you know, 01:17:23.340 --> 01:17:25.680 it sucks, rub some dirt in it, suck it up, buttercup, 01:17:25.699 --> 01:17:28.119 you know, the bullshit mentality, the Rambo, 01:17:28.119 --> 01:17:30.859 you know, generation. Then you have this, oh 01:17:30.859 --> 01:17:32.979 shit, no, there is something wrong. We're starting 01:17:32.979 --> 01:17:35.039 to have this conversation and everyone was using 01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:37.939 the word PTSD. That's what we've got. Then we 01:17:37.939 --> 01:17:40.479 move forward more to understanding moral injury, 01:17:40.859 --> 01:17:45.119 organizational betrayal, TBI, operations syndrome, 01:17:45.439 --> 01:17:47.699 et cetera, et cetera. So now we're fragmenting 01:17:47.699 --> 01:17:49.300 and realizing, okay, there's lots of little pieces 01:17:49.300 --> 01:17:53.300 within this. But I think the next conversation 01:17:53.300 --> 01:17:56.039 that I think is probably the most important and 01:17:56.039 --> 01:17:59.390 the most positive is actually performance. This 01:17:59.390 --> 01:18:01.989 really became an aha moment when I saw some of 01:18:01.989 --> 01:18:04.590 the naysayers. The guys are still hung on to 01:18:04.590 --> 01:18:07.430 that Robocop bullshit. And I was like, all right 01:18:07.430 --> 01:18:09.470 then, tough guy. If you don't think that this 01:18:09.470 --> 01:18:11.310 whole mental health thing is a real thing, let 01:18:11.310 --> 01:18:14.430 me put it differently. You now have all this 01:18:14.430 --> 01:18:16.409 shit banging around your head, but you're not 01:18:16.409 --> 01:18:19.529 addressing it. And now you're assigned to primary 01:18:19.529 --> 01:18:22.369 search on the second floor. And your mind's so 01:18:22.369 --> 01:18:24.489 busy that you can't even get to that flow state 01:18:24.489 --> 01:18:26.130 where you're actually able to paint the building 01:18:26.130 --> 01:18:28.069 with your hands and try and find that child who's 01:18:28.069 --> 01:18:31.710 actually hiding under the bunk bed. Right. If 01:18:31.710 --> 01:18:33.890 you want to operate at the high level in a gunfight, 01:18:33.989 --> 01:18:37.069 whatever it is, we know that you need a high 01:18:37.069 --> 01:18:41.510 level of stress, multiple repetitions, and a 01:18:41.510 --> 01:18:44.069 calm mind. And if you don't have a calm mind, 01:18:44.109 --> 01:18:45.949 you're never going to operate at a high level 01:18:45.949 --> 01:18:47.829 as a police officer or a firefighter or as a 01:18:47.829 --> 01:18:51.659 paramedic. What it made me realize on the physical 01:18:51.659 --> 01:18:53.939 side, on the mental side, is if we just focus 01:18:53.939 --> 01:18:57.260 on performance, not just, but that's like the 01:18:57.260 --> 01:19:00.560 main kind of conversation, that's going to pull 01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:02.960 everyone away from the crises as well, because 01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:05.260 we're using the same exact tool, counseling, 01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:09.779 getting the right amount of sleep, contrast therapy, 01:19:10.159 --> 01:19:13.060 breath work, meditation, et cetera, et cetera. 01:19:13.159 --> 01:19:15.760 These are the tools that our tier one operators 01:19:15.760 --> 01:19:18.079 use, that our astronauts use, that all these 01:19:18.079 --> 01:19:21.010 high performance Olympians. They are using those. 01:19:21.210 --> 01:19:25.210 And so I think it's a really powerful conversation 01:19:25.210 --> 01:19:28.529 now to shift away from the, oh, it's so sad mental 01:19:28.529 --> 01:19:30.510 health conversation we've had for the last 10 01:19:30.510 --> 01:19:34.189 years and make it a positive conversation and 01:19:34.189 --> 01:19:36.350 not negate the fact that some people might be 01:19:36.350 --> 01:19:39.189 in crisis and bringing those in. But when those 01:19:39.189 --> 01:19:40.710 people are like, oh, no, no, you're just further 01:19:40.710 --> 01:19:43.449 back on the scale to this performance conversation 01:19:43.449 --> 01:19:45.970 that we're having. We don't want you to be. just 01:19:45.970 --> 01:19:48.869 okay or just get back to work we want you to 01:19:48.869 --> 01:19:51.109 get back to work and now be more resilient because 01:19:51.109 --> 01:19:53.409 of the shit that you've been through that becomes 01:19:53.409 --> 01:19:56.029 a fucking superpower and you're going to be more 01:19:56.029 --> 01:19:58.789 you know compassionate more empathetic and you're 01:19:58.789 --> 01:20:01.130 going to be able to operate at even higher level 01:20:01.130 --> 01:20:02.789 under stress because you've been through this 01:20:02.789 --> 01:20:06.329 stuff so i feel like that that's the next chapter 01:20:06.329 --> 01:20:08.609 of this mental health conversation in our profession 01:20:08.609 --> 01:20:12.170 is to get away from you know, oh, let's try and 01:20:12.170 --> 01:20:14.270 die less, which is our physical conversation. 01:20:14.310 --> 01:20:17.369 It's our mental conversation to, well, let's 01:20:17.369 --> 01:20:20.569 talk about how we can shave, you know, half a 01:20:20.569 --> 01:20:22.550 second off your shooting time and how we can 01:20:22.550 --> 01:20:24.270 keep your heart rate low after you've climbed 01:20:24.270 --> 01:20:26.529 to the 10th floor before you do a primary search. 01:20:26.829 --> 01:20:28.909 That's the conversation we should be having. 01:20:29.250 --> 01:20:30.930 So I don't know, you know, what your perspective 01:20:30.930 --> 01:20:33.489 of that, but I feel like we need to almost kind 01:20:33.489 --> 01:20:37.329 of slough the old. sad doom and gloom mental 01:20:37.329 --> 01:20:40.109 health conversation and reframe it to mental 01:20:40.109 --> 01:20:43.369 performance. And then obviously not negating 01:20:43.369 --> 01:20:46.229 the fact that some people's baseline at this 01:20:46.229 --> 01:20:48.130 point might be crisis and we've just got more 01:20:48.130 --> 01:20:51.789 work to do then. Definitely. We started a group. 01:20:51.869 --> 01:20:53.310 I'm helping a group out. It's called Phoenix 01:20:53.310 --> 01:20:55.050 Fund. This guy Will runs it. Anyway, he's an 01:20:55.050 --> 01:20:57.829 Atlanta PD cop. And we started from North Georgia. 01:20:57.930 --> 01:21:00.510 It's once a month. We meet at a church. And basically 01:21:00.510 --> 01:21:04.180 it's trauma. You just come and it's a... run 01:21:04.180 --> 01:21:05.859 like an AA. So you just come, you can tell your 01:21:05.859 --> 01:21:08.619 story or just listen to others, man. And it's 01:21:08.619 --> 01:21:09.880 starting to go great, man. We're getting a bunch 01:21:09.880 --> 01:21:12.300 of different departments who show up, you know, 01:21:12.319 --> 01:21:14.020 of course, no recordings and like that. And you 01:21:14.020 --> 01:21:16.920 can just listen or you can talk, man. And we 01:21:16.920 --> 01:21:19.079 do, you know, we do diffusings, we do debriefings, 01:21:19.100 --> 01:21:21.800 but it stops after that too. There's no check 01:21:21.800 --> 01:21:25.600 -ins really per se. We're offering you your four 01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:28.710 sessions of therapy. This is great, man, in that 01:21:28.710 --> 01:21:30.149 you're in your street clothes. You don't have 01:21:30.149 --> 01:21:32.210 to talk about your department. And you just go 01:21:32.210 --> 01:21:34.289 and talk, man, if you want to. We've had some 01:21:34.289 --> 01:21:38.149 just unbelievable stories already. And everyone 01:21:38.149 --> 01:21:40.590 in that group is just growing. And it's just 01:21:40.590 --> 01:21:43.670 word of mouth. And it's a nice next step that 01:21:43.670 --> 01:21:46.170 is not offered by any departments. And it's bringing 01:21:46.170 --> 01:21:48.130 anybody from North Georgia to speak. It's great. 01:21:48.930 --> 01:21:51.149 Sounds amazing. That's just one part. But to 01:21:51.149 --> 01:21:53.569 me, too, it's an orientation -based thing, and 01:21:53.569 --> 01:21:55.210 I think that helps, too. Again, we've got to 01:21:55.210 --> 01:21:56.930 transition. We're still losing way too many people. 01:21:57.210 --> 01:21:59.869 Most medications ever, most treatment ever, still 01:21:59.869 --> 01:22:02.770 suicides are through the roof. And everyone affects 01:22:02.770 --> 01:22:04.369 me. I mean, that's it. When I see it again on 01:22:04.369 --> 01:22:07.029 LinkedIn or Facebook, man, it hurts. It does. 01:22:07.149 --> 01:22:10.149 I'm so over it, man, when it's the same reasons. 01:22:10.810 --> 01:22:13.409 So I take it personally, too. And to me, it's 01:22:13.409 --> 01:22:14.989 the orientations. We have some great departments 01:22:14.989 --> 01:22:17.890 who day one, they start with your mental health, 01:22:17.930 --> 01:22:21.250 with your spouse, too. This is what Dennis is 01:22:21.250 --> 01:22:23.550 going to look like. This is how he's going to 01:22:23.550 --> 01:22:26.130 change. We need you to know this right now from 01:22:26.130 --> 01:22:28.770 the get go. And that works, man. And we're going 01:22:28.770 --> 01:22:30.649 to continue this. And here's my phone number. 01:22:30.689 --> 01:22:33.779 And when you hear veterans. open their souls 01:22:33.779 --> 01:22:36.359 up to rookies man it definitely works it really 01:22:36.359 --> 01:22:39.479 works and uh we just need that old guard to basically 01:22:39.479 --> 01:22:42.079 get out like you said they still have that way 01:22:42.079 --> 01:22:45.000 i'm good i'm good sure you are man retirement 01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:46.760 and then you lost your identity and really know 01:22:46.760 --> 01:22:49.460 what's going to happen but i think we're doing 01:22:49.460 --> 01:22:51.859 better i really do but we got to do more i have 01:22:51.859 --> 01:22:55.460 to do more i think we all can absolutely well 01:22:55.460 --> 01:22:57.100 i want to throw some closing questions at you 01:22:57.100 --> 01:22:59.750 before i let you go The first one I love to ask, 01:22:59.949 --> 01:23:02.229 is there a book or other books that you love 01:23:02.229 --> 01:23:04.529 to recommend? It can be related to our discussion 01:23:04.529 --> 01:23:08.829 today or completely unrelated. I'm a reading 01:23:08.829 --> 01:23:11.829 fanatic, James. Fanatic. I usually read two books 01:23:11.829 --> 01:23:14.109 a night. Not totally, but I'll go be through 01:23:14.109 --> 01:23:17.289 with that. Man, one book I love for trauma and 01:23:17.289 --> 01:23:21.329 peer support, Terrorist Attack Girl. Have you 01:23:21.329 --> 01:23:22.930 read that one? No, I haven't. I haven't even 01:23:22.930 --> 01:23:25.750 heard of that. Oh, my God. Phenomenal. She is 01:23:25.750 --> 01:23:28.529 the female. I think her name is Mai Lee. When 01:23:28.529 --> 01:23:32.210 the Nairobi terrorist attack killed 21 people, 01:23:32.350 --> 01:23:35.550 she was stuck in her hotel room. And it is intense. 01:23:35.909 --> 01:23:38.029 And I read it before peer support, and now I 01:23:38.029 --> 01:23:40.430 read it as a, quote, professional. Man, it's 01:23:40.430 --> 01:23:42.270 mind -blowing. So she journalizes the entire 01:23:42.270 --> 01:23:44.930 time as terrorists are going to kill her or whatever. 01:23:45.189 --> 01:23:47.310 And Christian Craighead came in and killed them 01:23:47.310 --> 01:23:50.850 all. That's another whole story. But her honesty 01:23:50.850 --> 01:23:53.979 and her journal, it's word for word, is... It's 01:23:53.979 --> 01:23:55.680 mind -blowing. It's only about a 200 -page book 01:23:55.680 --> 01:23:58.520 too, man. But for therapy, yeah, that is one 01:23:58.520 --> 01:24:00.899 that I unbelievably recommend, especially if 01:24:00.899 --> 01:24:03.880 you're in the pure world. Beautiful. What about 01:24:03.880 --> 01:24:07.960 documentary, film, or television? I don't watch 01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:14.670 TV. I seriously don't. I am an anomaly. workout 01:24:14.670 --> 01:24:17.149 fanatic, and reading fanatic. I don't know. I 01:24:17.149 --> 01:24:19.170 haven't watched a movie in 10, 15 years. I can't 01:24:19.170 --> 01:24:22.409 even tell you. That's admirable. It really is. 01:24:22.569 --> 01:24:24.869 All right. Well, the next question then, is there 01:24:24.869 --> 01:24:27.069 a person you'd recommend to come on this podcast 01:24:27.069 --> 01:24:29.770 as a guest to speak to the first responders, 01:24:29.949 --> 01:24:32.289 military, and associated professions of the world? 01:24:34.590 --> 01:24:38.949 Did you have Mike Morgan on? I did, yes. You 01:24:38.949 --> 01:24:43.250 did. How about Pat O 'Pian from USB Atlanta PD? 01:24:43.770 --> 01:24:47.470 That name doesn't ring a bell. A -P -O -I -A 01:24:47.470 --> 01:24:50.630 -N is his last name, Pat. Pat's a former Atlanta 01:24:50.630 --> 01:24:56.149 police officer as well. On the job, on a felony 01:24:56.149 --> 01:24:59.949 stop, got driven over on a burglary and almost 01:24:59.949 --> 01:25:02.149 died multiple times. His story's pretty phenomenal, 01:25:02.310 --> 01:25:04.050 his road to recovery, and then finally the department 01:25:04.050 --> 01:25:06.390 just ditching him as well because they were done 01:25:06.390 --> 01:25:09.390 with him on his recovery. But incredible, incredible 01:25:09.390 --> 01:25:11.310 story and journey. I used to play ice hockey 01:25:11.310 --> 01:25:13.840 with him. And I heard him on a podcast and it 01:25:13.840 --> 01:25:15.359 was stuff I never even heard. It's funny, like 01:25:15.359 --> 01:25:17.239 we talk about the honesty, knew him forever. 01:25:17.420 --> 01:25:19.159 And then he goes on a podcast and tells these 01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:20.939 stories. I'm like, where did this come from? 01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:23.720 What the heck is this? And definitely recommend 01:25:23.720 --> 01:25:26.359 him for sure. Brilliant. I'll look him up. Thank 01:25:26.359 --> 01:25:28.819 you. Awesome. Yes, sir. All right. Well, the 01:25:28.819 --> 01:25:30.380 last question before we make sure everyone knows 01:25:30.380 --> 01:25:33.180 where to find the book and you, what you do to 01:25:33.180 --> 01:25:37.939 decompress? Decompressed. Definitely, like I 01:25:37.939 --> 01:25:40.100 said, work out. I got to work out tonight. It's 01:25:40.100 --> 01:25:41.819 non -negotiable every single day. It has to be 01:25:41.819 --> 01:25:44.279 done. I do my breath work in the morning. I make 01:25:44.279 --> 01:25:46.939 sure. And I do a grateful journey, man. That's 01:25:46.939 --> 01:25:49.640 what I do. I try to do it in the morning, but 01:25:49.640 --> 01:25:51.420 it's three things, the three things I'm grateful 01:25:51.420 --> 01:25:53.319 for. You'll be on one of it. You'll be one of 01:25:53.319 --> 01:25:55.520 them this time. And, you know, it's either my 01:25:55.520 --> 01:25:58.520 wife, my family, my dogs. I try to make it vary, 01:25:58.800 --> 01:26:00.380 and then I'll write a paragraph about each one. 01:26:01.279 --> 01:26:03.699 To me, that is unloading, man. It just shows 01:26:03.699 --> 01:26:06.180 that no matter what I went through, I'm so grateful 01:26:06.180 --> 01:26:08.739 for this life and everything I have. Love it. 01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:11.220 Yeah, I don't do a paragraph, but I do the gratitude 01:26:11.220 --> 01:26:13.560 journal in the morning and in the evening. And 01:26:13.560 --> 01:26:15.640 it's awesome. It's amazing when you're forced 01:26:15.640 --> 01:26:16.920 to think about something that you're grateful 01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:19.279 for. It completely reframes what you haven't 01:26:19.279 --> 01:26:22.300 got. Totally. It does, man. It really does. It's 01:26:22.300 --> 01:26:24.220 a game changer. I just started maybe a year or 01:26:24.220 --> 01:26:26.600 two ago and it has changed my life. It really 01:26:26.600 --> 01:26:29.100 has. Beautiful. All right. Well, then for people 01:26:29.100 --> 01:26:31.460 listening, the book is Demons and Angels. Where 01:26:31.460 --> 01:26:34.079 can they find that? And then where are any places 01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:36.920 to find you online? Yes, sir. So the book's on 01:26:36.920 --> 01:26:39.560 Amazon, Demons and Angels. It's only on Amazon. 01:26:39.979 --> 01:26:42.720 You can get it in any format, of course. I got 01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:44.619 to pull my stuff up so I remember. Website is 01:26:44.619 --> 01:26:48.420 pshokbooks .com is my last name, pshokbooks .com. 01:26:49.380 --> 01:26:51.979 LinkedIn, it's just my name, Dennis Pshok. And 01:26:51.979 --> 01:26:55.430 my Instagram is pshokspatriots. And that's it. 01:26:55.449 --> 01:26:58.090 I don't do Facebook. So that's all my links right 01:26:58.090 --> 01:27:00.810 there. Brilliant. Well, Dennis, it's been an 01:27:00.810 --> 01:27:02.909 amazing conversation. We've gone all over the 01:27:02.909 --> 01:27:05.909 place from Swiftwater Rescue to Organizational 01:27:05.909 --> 01:27:08.369 Betrayal and everything in between. I want to 01:27:08.369 --> 01:27:10.390 thank you so much for being so generous with 01:27:10.390 --> 01:27:12.270 your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 01:27:12.270 --> 01:27:15.270 podcast today. Thanks, James. Incredible honor. 01:27:15.369 --> 01:27:17.069 I'm so happy. Thank you so much for having me.