Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name's James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,
firefighter, law enforcement officer, and the
author of Demons and Angels, Dennis P. Schock.
So in this conversation, we discuss a host of
topics, from Dennis's journey into the fire service,
some of his powerful career calls, his mental
health journey, his transition into law enforcement,
teaching defensive tactics, catharsis through
writing, and so much more. Now, before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever
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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you, Dennis. P -Shock. Enjoy.
Well, Dennis, I want to start by saying thank
you so much for taking the time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thanks for
having me. I'm humbled. It's a huge honor. Thank
you, James. So where on planet Earth are we finding
you this afternoon? We are in Atlanta, Georgia,
just outside of there, probably about 40 minutes
outside in a suburb in a county called Forsyth
County. How did you guys do with the storm that
we just had? We did okay. Georgia, you know,
doesn't do too well usually. They usually don't.
uh but we did okay with this one let's just say
that we did um everyone was pretty good they
salted earlier which is good which i usually
don't do but uh we survived how about y 'all
we i mean we it was gorgeous down here we just
had like 23 degrees at night that was it but
yeah nothing was you know needed to be done no
snow or anything so i think we escaped the worst
of it yeah five inches nothing bad yeah Brilliant.
All right, well, let's start at the very beginning
of your timeline then. So tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
Sure, absolutely. Seven of us in total, five
kids, grew up in a place called Norristown, Pennsylvania,
just outside of Philadelphia. Blue -collar town,
man, just hard working. uh everyone worked their
tails off a lot of folks stayed there kind of
that kind of town you know used to be um outside
country hawking you think about allentown kind
of like your steel towns and everyone grows up
there and stays there man and um grew up playing
sports of course you know we're outdoors all
the time very different um i listened to your
one buddy uh from fdmy had him on very similar
to his life in new york um A lot of diversity
with Italians, Polish, Irish, and just huge,
huge communities. And everyone got along, man.
Everyone played. And it was literally that you
played till the lights came on at nighttime.
And then you went in and there was, you know,
no cell phones and everyone's outdoors, man.
Grew up playing ice hockey, played football too.
And everyone was playing sports. And you definitely
played every single sport you could. Everyone
was pretty much good at everything. It was extremely
competitive and blue collar, man. Very blue collar.
I always ask people this, you know, when you're
from a generation that just plays sports and
you're playing lots of different sports, you're
not specializing, you're not trying to become,
you know, the world champion in something. After
you graduated, did you continue playing sports?
I did. So, yeah, I played in high school, of
course. And then I got to play Division II hockey,
played up there too. just continue. And we grew
up playing street hockey and pond hockey when
everything, anything froze and everyone was pretty
good. You know, everyone up there is just, it's,
it's pretty fine line who's going to make it
or who's not. And after that, but almost everyone,
man, everyone plays through high school. It's
just standard. And then once you graduate from
college though, are you still playing sports?
I did. I played, I got into martial arts. So
I was always into martial arts and I continued
to play ice hockey until about the age of 40
when I broke my femur. And that was the end of
my hockey career right there. It's just an interesting,
I mean, I won't take a deep dive into this because
I talk about it on here many times, but when
you have someone who's got a background where
they just played lots of sports and it was really
for the love of the game, it was for fun. They
end up. carrying on playing throughout adulthood.
When you have, it seems, a high level of specialization
and performance at a high school and college
level, usually resulting in injury and or burnout,
you have a lot of people in the US that used
to be at a high level that now are very deconditioned
and don't play anything at all. So I think it's
a testament to You know, not specializing, you
know, enjoying sport for what it is, playing
a multitude of sports because there's a high
chance that you're going to carry on and therefore
maintain your fitness. Totally agree. And I think
it led us into our public safety professions
in a way, too. You know, we talk about childhood
trauma can do that, too. But your sports and
that camaraderie and everything, people can't
understand it. And you did it nonstop. You went
from baseball season to football season to hockey
season. And you were always surrounded by these
different people. Everyone was ultra competitive
and everyone played for the love of the game.
And I have a very difficult problem watching
any pro sports now because I just I can't even
comprehend it when they say, well, I'm not going
to practice today. I'm not going to play. We
did it because we loved it every single day.
Well, you mentioned childhood trauma. Obviously,
we're going to be talking about mental health
in this conversation. When you reflect back now
with this 2026 lens, knowing that a lot of us
in uniform. had things you know struggles when
we were young and and if addressed that becomes
a strength but it does kind of you know cause
a lot of us to toe the line in the first place
what were elements of your upbringing you think
that contributed to your struggles uh again uh
different different type of living too so everyone
like you said was kind of doing that up fought
everyone served you know everyone was in either
world war ii korea vietnam so everyone in your
family had previously served and very different
again we'll get into that too um uh grandfather
was in massive battles bout of lady gulf uh in
the navy battle of uh okinawa some huge naval
battles and uh he actually helped i think it
was at uh his tv 214 i think it was a pellu too
bombed so he was a massive battles gunner on
a ship never talked about anything zero ever
and uh And you didn't talk about it. Like if
they got mentioned, grandma would smack you on
the head. Do not bring this up in this household.
And you knew it. Then my father was in Vietnam
and he passed a couple of years ago and he did
not talk about it at all towards the end. And
massive, massive trauma. All of his promotions
in the field were combat promotions. His buddies
got killed and they said, Jim, you're next. You
know, and very difficult. And you just knew,
you know, those guys had a had a they definitely
had that aura. If you said something that gave
you that look and the conversation was over,
like you didn't even push it, you knew better.
And it's so sad when we have this conversation
now, because I've actually had a World War II,
excuse me, yeah, World War II Iwo Jima wounded
veteran on the show. And he talked about PTSD,
he wrote a book about PTSD, which I thought was
phenomenal. Frank Wright. But you hear a lot
of the stories, and I know it's still kind of
romanticized. There are a lot of World War II
vets that came home and didn't have ticker tape
parades. They just went back to their farm town.
But they were still received somewhat as heroes.
And you look at the Vietnam generation, of which
I've had numerous people on, and it couldn't
have been more different than that. And the moral
injury that it must have been to serve your country
overseas, whether you were drafted or whether
you signed up. Wear the American flag and then
come back to that. I can't imagine how destructive
that must have been. And obviously, I know that's
behind a lot of our suicides in our World War,
excuse me, in our veterans of Vietnam. Absolutely.
And yeah, of course, I had my father live it
at the time. And later on, as we got kind of
a little bit more talk and all like that, as
we're getting older, I got to work with some
Purple Heart guys. And when they started in Vietnam,
got hurt. And their stories, too, are... just
insane. One guy got shot down in a helicopter
and he's coming back to the States on a plane.
And he's riding with all the dead bodies in the
back. He's the only live one. And the pilot lands
at a spot and he's like, hey man, what did you
say you did again? He's like, I got shot down.
I got this purple heart. The pilot switched with
him. He's like, I'm riding in the back now. You
ride in the front. You're a hero. So pretty incredible,
man. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, I had Major James Capers,
who was one of the very first Marine recon soldiers
or Marines, had a kind of incident with a helicopter.
They were trying to evac after they'd all been
shot. He jumped out because the bird couldn't
take off. It landed again. His men grabbed him,
put him in, and they were able to finally take
off. Should have got a Medal of Honor for what
he did. badly wounded, comes back to stateside
and is lying on the tarmac and someone actually
pisses on him while he's lying there on a stretcher.
You know what I mean? So many others spit and
called baby killers and all this stuff. And,
you know, most of these men just thought they
were doing the right thing at the time or were
even drafted. So, I mean, this is why I like
to ask our military veterans about the nuances
because it's not black and white. No, it's not.
You're so right. It helps definitely with peer
support trauma when you start processing stuff
like these ladies and gentlemen definitely did
as best as they could. Like that's we can't explain
it. You just gave your life, did this almost
your life. And then someone comes back and takes
a piss on you. Like, I mean, there's nothing
to say. No, exactly. It's horrible. Well, with
your kind of career journey, when you were still
in school, what were you dreaming of becoming
back then? It's funny, you know, because we grew
up playing Cowboys Indians and the Green Army
Man. That's how old I am, you know. So you're
always dreaming military, and you're always pretending
you were against Germany in World War II and
then Russia with the Cold War. So definitely
wanted to go in the military. And my dad, man,
he's an intense dude, and I told him I was going
to join the Marines like him, and he lost his
mind and scared the hell out of me. My dad was
an intimidating dude, man. It was just different.
He went to DI for a little bit. He scared the
shit out of me. So I was like, yeah, man, you're
going to go to college because no one goes to
college here in this family. You're going to
college degree. My brother just got one of the
degrees and we're going to follow up. So I said,
OK, so I'm going to move out of this house. I
eventually moved out. I was like, I got to serve,
man. I have got to serve. And then really it
was between firefighting police and I started
with fire. And that's what I decided I had. I
had to do something more. I just felt that definitely
I was letting myself down. What was 9 -11 through
your eyes? What was your experience that day?
So I was a firefighter for about seven months
at the time, a very busy area outside of Atlanta.
You know, horrific. So, you know, I remember
watching it on the video. We're actually doing
IV practice that day for EMT school. And I couldn't
hit a damn IV. That's how I always remember.
You know, it's hard in the beginning. And, you
know, I get to the TVs, which was insane because
you couldn't leave the classroom ever. And we
went in there, and we pretty much got there right
before they fell down. And our instructors, you
know, are the old salty vets. Like, you know
who they are. You didn't cross them or nothing.
And those towers went down. I looked over, and
one of them was crying. And I was like, holy
crap. Like, this guy is, you know, Superman to
you already. He's one of your instructors, and
he's been doing this probably 20 years. And I
was like, okay, this is pretty bad, man. It hit
me hard. And then the numbers started coming
out. They didn't know at the time how many hundreds
of firefighters and then so many cops were in
there. And then, of course, the other one. Man,
it hit hard. It definitely hit hard. Like I said,
I was firefighting at the time. Guys started
volunteering. Get your gear. We want to go. We
want to get up to New York. We're in Philadelphia,
so we want to get up there and help out. And
the department was like, absolutely not. um no
one was allowed to go and that that hurt worse
too because you got all these gung -ho folks
who were like we'll go we'll take pto we'll do
whatever it takes to go help out but yeah man
it was a massive blow and uh it was a i knew
i was in a pretty tough career real fast how
competitive was it to get hired back then oh
god i thought we're gonna go there i'd listen
to what your last podcast yes all right anyway
uh very hard so it took we had a two -year waiting
period And so at the time, I applied for the
place I was at for 17, 18 years. And I applied
for the city of Atlanta. And I was just waiting
and waiting, man. I applied in like 99. And 2001,
it was like six days before my two years came
up. And I was like, I'm done. I'm moving on to
a different career. Like, I can't wait. And of
course, I was working. And two years, man. And
the PT test was no joke. You know, it was like,
are you claustrophobic? I was like, I don't know.
They put the damn gear on me. And they're like,
go crawl through this tunnel. I'm like, okay,
I want this job pretty damn bad. I waited two
years. So I went, did really well. I was always
in shape, man. I'm a PT fanatic. So did really
well on the test. But, you know, you just don't
know how you're going to do in a tunnel either.
It's pitch blacked out. And it was really interesting.
And everyone was different trying. You see all
these people fail next to you. And then all of
a sudden, voila, man, I had a job. And it was,
again, two -year waiting list. And they were
the cream of the crop. And what was your first
department? It's called Gwinnett County. It's
just south side of Atlanta. It's about a million
citizens. I think they're about 17th top rated
in the US right now for call volume. They're
pretty high. So at the front door, what was,
if any, the mental health conversation? Zero.
Oh, my God. I still remember. So, you know, you're
in training. It's your. We'll call it your hell
week. So the one night you got to stay up all
night, you know, and the instructors just, you
run mock calls all night, but no sleeping allowed
for over 24 hours. And I'll never forget it,
man. The driver engineer and the other guys,
old school dudes, they said, let's be effing
clear. You do not talk about this job to your
family or friends. They don't have a freaking
clue and don't waste your damn time. He said,
never your spouse either. I was like, okay. Of
course you listen to everything they say. And
that was your mental health for the next probably
seven years right there. What did you find yourself
on vehicle wise? So it's pretty cool, man. When
I first started, we had an E1 engine, which was
an open cab. So it was pretty awesome, man. You
didn't ride like I'm not that old, but at least
you were sitting in a chair and it was open.
So you had the elements, but it was cool as hell,
man. You pulled up to cars next to you and you
could look into the car. So it was an old school
engine, man. It was pretty awesome. and then
as far as like assignment were you um engine
guy for a while truck guy where did you kind
of specialize for a long time yeah engine guy
was uh engine 23 super busy house man and uh
you get your assignment the night before and
this guy uh comes up to me he's in like station
23 it's like he's like man that's busy get ready
and uh first shift man fatality house fire boom
right from the get -go man was non -stop So with
that being said, then doesn't have to be the
most grotesque by any means. But when you reflect
back now on the fireside, what was some of the
career calls that you ran? Well, man, first of
all, my books got a lot of the harshest ones
that and those are the ones I wrote to process
when I started understanding trauma and all that.
But, you know, I'd say a couple of calls in,
man. You know, I don't know where you want to
go, how dark you want to go here, but we had
a couple. I read your book, man, so I know you
explain things well, man. So we had these chicks
from Africa, man. And I mean Africa, like Kenya.
And we saw them earlier in the night, and they
were like, hey, fireman. And my buddy's name
is Black Cadillac. He's a huge black guy. He
was a pimp in Chicago before becoming a firefighter.
I'm not joking. So he's flirting. Yeah, man,
it's a whole other story on the show. So they're
flirting back and forth. I'm like, hey. So, you
know, we drive by. probably about five hours
later whatever how many hours i don't remember
now you know trauma's funny get a call people
hit by vehicle man it's them they got smoked
like basically on an interstate four lanes uh
multiple times by multiple cars and we're talking
pieces hair is everywhere man and they're like
these are those girls literally you know so you
get to work man you know uh Engine and Med Unit,
probably five folks on scene. So everyone's got
a massive job to do, you know, on something like
that, too. So I had one patient. My black Cadillac
had the other man. And it was rough, dude. And
they both died, of course. But, you know, your
part's sticking out. And I remember this for
my trauma part, man. He was sitting on the curb
after the call, and the ambulance took off. You
know what we do. Two lines, try to get what you
can on them. And he had a damn eyeball on his
hand. And he's like, Pete. He called me Pete.
He's like, look, man, it was one of the damn
girl's eyes, man. Just sitting in his freaking
hand, man, on the side of the road. You know,
you keep running calls. You try to process this
shit, but you don't. Two hours later, 1 a .m.,
whatever, you get a call. Need a wash down. PD's
out there. It's so, the road is so bad. We got
to go do a wash down. You know what that is.
Got to get booster line. So, man, it was a three.
It was a trifecta that night just on one call.
And that was two, three shifts in, man. brutal
that reminds me when i when i first became a
standalone medic in orange county outside of
lando um one of my very first call you know the
first shift at least it was um in the the night
time but i don't know what exactly had happened
but these two pedestrians decided they want to
cross kind of like you're talking about like
a six lane you know um road and just got creamed
by a taxi and so i pull on scene you know one
of my first calls as a standalone medic There's
an experienced medic on the engine that's just
working them. But he turns to me and go, you
know, should we call it? And I'm like, fuck,
I don't know. Let's have a look. And so we start,
you know, doing the assessment, listen to what
they were telling me. And then one of the other
guys says that there's brain matter. And I'm
like, okay, then we're going to call it. Thank
you for that sign. But yeah, I mean, God, to
go from, you know, whatever we were doing prior,
you know, watching TV or drinking coffee or whatever
it was to then, like you said, and it's even
worse. God, if you've actually interacted with
those people prior as well. But just the finality
of a brutal call like that, it's heartbreaking.
It really is. It is, man. And again, no peer
support. You were told to un -F yourself. That's
it. This is what you signed up for. Next call.
Next call, man. You go home, do it again. And
that's how those stations don't stop. They don't
care. And you love it. Of course, you love it
for years until you finally find out something
is happening to you. Absolutely. What about Swift,
Swift water rescue? I saw that was one of your
specialties. Talk to me about that. Yeah, man.
So that's, that's a whole nother story. So yeah,
man, I got promoted, you know, driver and just
how it works out. Like you're going to the Swift
water team. I'm like, Jesus, I haven't swam in
years. I'm like, okay. You know, so go out there
for the tryouts. And again, PT fanatic, man,
I'm in good shape, but swimming doesn't care.
You know, the river does not care what kind of
shape you're in. You can do pull -ups all day
and pushups, but if you ain't doing this motion.
So, yeah, man, I take the swim test. I go there,
and the swim test was funny. It's like a 50 -meter
sprain, then you tread water for 10 minutes,
and then do something else. I'm like, okay, I'm
surviving, but I'm starting to hurt pretty good
here. And then it was, I think it was a 400 -meter
swim test, and I can't remember whatever time
it was. I made about four laps and drowned. I
just went right to the bottom. I'm like, I have
nothing left. You can't fake it. Your body starts
cramping because you don't use any of these muscles.
And I was like, I got issues. And they were like,
all right, well, here's the deal, man. You got
two weeks. Swim test is back. You're off the
team and you're out of the station. I said, OK.
And type A personality, man. I'm like, OK, game
on, man. So right to the pool every single day
and went back past the swim test. And then, you
know, Swiftwater team, man, we do the hooch here,
Chattahoochee. It doesn't play, man. It doesn't
care. It's seven miles an hour, which is fast.
People don't understand how fast that is when
they're flowing. And got on the team. Lots of
knots, you know, lots of knots, man, which, again,
is another. It took me a long time to learn all
these damn knots, but it paid off. And then you
start doing a lot of body recoveries, unfortunately.
We have a lot of, I don't know how to say it,
but anyway, man, a lot of illegals, per se, and
they can't swim well. And some of the flatter
parts of water, like the ponds, they just walked
out and just kept walking out. It gets deeper,
but they keep walking out, and they literally
die, and the water is just above their head.
That's it. And we got a lot of those. You just
go in maybe with a pipe pole or just a quick
john boat and pull them out. Whatever you have,
any kind of flotation. But then the floods, man,
the floods were something else in 2009. That
was really different. Definitely had some rescues.
And like I said, when the river is flowing, man,
at full, that dam is open, there is no explanation.
It just, it is relentless. It's the most powerful
thing in the world. Fire fighting is incredible,
but definitely a water rescue is pretty phenomenal,
man. And in 2009, we had the floods here, which
was the storm of 500 years. It was exactly like
what happened to Texas. And we got it, man. In
2009, I was on the team, and it was a hell of
a night, to say the least. Talk to me about that
night. What were some of the notable rescues
or heroism or community that you witnessed? Definitely,
man. We can go into this, and I'll do my best.
It still screws me up sometimes. Anyway, so it's
porn, man. It was porn for like three days. And
just, you know, the ground's super saturated
and all that. So we go to work, and you're like,
oh, it's not too bad. Just pounding off the metal
roof, the tin roof. So we go to bed about 11
o 'clock at the first dispatch. You get wrung
out. You know, you try to get some sleep because
you're figuring, but you don't know what the
hell's going to go on here. I think we got like
20 inches in like an hour. It was insane. You
know, just this god storm from Moses, basically.
So, yeah, man, we get to work. And first rescues
are pretty simple. We had to get the boat to
this place. I think it was the Yellow River.
And we almost lost the boat. When we started
going across the bridge to get to where everything
was, the water was so high, it almost took our
boat right off the back. But we made it, man,
and we started roping in, and people were just
stuck on porches and houses. So in the beginning,
it was pretty simple. We started a rope system,
you know, kind of walk across. welcome back and
we're high -fiving man like this is great like
we got this you know we're like this is so easy
man but uh that was only the beginning man and
then uh those were the days of the map books
so it was comical and we were like 30 miles away
from our first end so nobody knew where the hell
they were going and then we would drive somewhere
and you couldn't go there because the water was
too high and i'm like okay get the map book out
man and start trying to find where these people
are calling and every single call was for swift
water at this point we're the only boat in the
water yet the backup team was not deployed so
i don't know how many of us were in there probably
eight of us uh anyway so yeah man just started
getting crazier and crazier and crazier and um
just different rescues uh we had to tie off to
the ladder trip one time man and pull some people
off and uh the craziest call is um if it's okay
if i tell it is all right yeah it's the same
way that you'd like yeah man so uh we get this
call And it was it was a dam broke in the area.
And that's it just didn't make sense. You know,
we talk about trauma. The mind can't process
some shit. It just can't. Like when we have a
huge, horrible pediatric fatality, your mind
kind of splits. It doesn't comprehend it goes
into that protection mode. And then, you know,
we go to the next call. But that's just the protection
defense of the human body. It's pretty incredible.
So we get out there, man. And we have like two
firefighters, maybe four cops. and maybe four
civilians trapped on a house. So we're like,
okay, it's ours. It's all our guys, too. So we
start setting up, set an attack team out there,
man, and they start roping off, and there's nothing.
This water is, like, probably three to four feet
high, and it is flying, and it just doesn't make
sense. We're in the middle of, like, a damn road.
Like, where the hell is all this water coming
from? Well, a dam broke so many miles down. And
when they made it to the house, James, it's a
two -story house. The water was on the roof.
So, again... How the hell is this water 24 foot
in the air flowing over a house? Like nobody
can comprehend it. So the attack team needed
more help. So I went out there. I was on the
second team. We started getting calls from boards.
Like they're kind of boogie boards. I don't know
if you know what those things are. Yep. Yep.
Okay. Tying all your damn rope systems. You find
out what the hell doesn't work real quick in
this shit. You start cutting rope systems that
are useless in a real life has a funny way of
changing theory. Let's just say that. So guys
are figuring it out, man. And you just had to
make some swims. And the first team was like,
you know, you got to go 15 feet. And that water
was flying and make the jump. And it was like,
OK, James, make the jump, man. And, you know,
we probably should be dead here because we were
probably not going to see you again because strainers
in the water, trees going by, too, because remember,
a dam broke and you're just going to get caught
up. But they made it, man. And we were able to
tie some rope systems there, too. Guys are swimming
and carrying gear, too. Again, like a gun, the
water is the ultimate equalizer. No matter what
shape you're in, what skill level, it's going
to make you work, man. So we got to these guys.
We got the civilians all first, of course. Then
we got the police officers, man. Those dudes
were freaking out. I didn't understand why, but
I didn't care because we had rescues to do. We
had our two guys still, too. And we got them
back, and then we got our two guys back, too.
Like, man, we got to go back. And it was just
the craziest silence, man. It was almost like
an evil. I can't explain it. The quiet was just
it was just the water. And it was like something
else out there, man. It was real strange. But
to make a long story short, man, we made it back.
We got all the systems back and then had a couple
more rescues that night where we had to go swim
out to a car. The backup team was at a different
place where a woman was stuck in the car. And
they actually had her on the phone, the battalion
chief and the lieutenant. talking to her like
they're coming they're coming they're coming
and she died with them on the telephone man so
you know heavy heavy trauma for them too man
you know on the phone with her and uh so we kept
going man and we got our people out of our cars
but the backup team lost that person and uh we
probably had 30 maybe at least 30 rescues that
night and uh most of us should have been dead
that's the bottom line Crazy. With the phone
call, it reminds me Beth Bowersox I had on the
show. She was a dispatcher at the Paradise Fire.
And that is, you know, the unsung heroes of the
first responders are the people on the end of
the line. Because they are so helpless and they
don't get closure. A lot of times they don't
know. Did the line go dead because they hung
up because we showed up? Or did it go dead because,
you know, they were consumed by fire? So, yeah,
awful. It is, man. One of those things, too.
So, you know, went home. That was the only time
they said you can't go home because you guys
are it. Like, you're not going home until these
floods recede. And, again, you go up this storm
of 500 years. The damage was insane. How many
billions of dollars and how many lives were lost.
But we killed it, man. We crushed it in that
regard. And different swift water rescue teams
around the areas, they did awesome, too. We did
as best we could, for sure. And when I went home,
man, that's when shit hit. Like, that fatigue.
Everything finally hit, and then the depression
and mental health definitely struck me. I definitely
learned about that later when we had to go to
the diffusing and the debriefings. That was just
beyond eye -opening, man. I went home, and again,
my dad's a combat vet. He was. I talked to him
on the phone, and I'm telling him what's happening,
and he just cut me off. He said, Dennis, you're
in combat. For him to say that, never, ever.
And he looked at me and he stopped me in my tracks,
said, you were just in combat. Move on. It's
over. And, you know, he didn't want to talk about
it anymore. But I'll never forget that either.
You mentioned about the police being the police
freaking out. Was there a specific reason you
uncovered or was it just simply the situation?
We did, man. We did. Can we go to the debriefing?
Is that OK? Yeah, please. Yeah, man. So this
this is crazy. And again, it's in my book. This
is definitely fucked me up, dude. So we go to
the debriefing and it's up. The chief's like,
Hey, I need you guys. Sorry about cursing. I
apologize. No, you can curse. I usually do. So,
um, you know, it's probably, uh, back then it
was probably two weeks later. It was a little
too late, but that's fine. And like, you guys
need to go. We're like, we're not going, you
know, we're running calls. We're too cool. We're
tight based. Like the chief's like, you're going,
you'll be there. I'm picking you all up. But
that was that crew, man. The crew was. Just jam
up awesome dudes, man. You know how it is. When
you get the specialty teams, man, those guys
want to be there, and you're going to drag them
out. So we're thinking, okay, we're going to
go and meet maybe five, six people. That was
our first legit debriefing, man. It was dispatch,
every police officer. I don't even know if there
was – it was probably 40, 50 people, man. And
that's where I got a taste of what this job was.
And I've been in – officer involved shooting
i've been on a uh line of duty death i wasn't
even two years on with our first line of duty
so i've been on bad calls but this was where
mental health got me man this is where because
everyone had to do their their talk so they came
to you and you can skip so i dispatch said theirs
and like you said it was intense man i was like
i had no idea i had no idea You know, radio is
going dead, but it wasn't dead for this time
for someone was dead. It was going dead because
of water and the heavy rain. So and of course,
dispatch is losing their minds and because they
love us. You know, they do. They truly love us.
And I didn't I never I never knew that because
you're always yelling at them. Talk better, louder.
So it was really good to hear their perspective.
And then the cops got up, man, and they were
screwed up. And I think they all quit not that
long after. And I didn't understand why. One
guy got carried by the water. I think his face
got stuck to a fence and electrocuted, burned
his entire face. But again, water is the great
equalizer, man. And when they did their speech
as a man to a man, it hit me. It haunted me.
Because I realized that we're not superhuman
anymore. And afterwards, man, it was time for
our talk. Not one of us on the damn team talked.
Not one. And we should have. But we were too
screwed up from these cops who were so honest.
And they were like, I don't think I'm doing this
job anymore to 50 strangers. And I was like,
holy shit. You're going to hear a pin drop in
that room. And none of us talked and we should
have. But, you know, whatever. And then so at
the very end, man, we're breaking up and we're
all like no one's no one's cutting up. You know,
because we know. We just got punched in the face
is what happened. That's what this job does to
you. Those cops came up to us and wanted to thank
us. Bro, they broke down. It was tough. And they
were like, hey, ma 'am, I'm only here because
of you, my daughter. And that's tough to take,
ma 'am, when you hear that. It's beautiful at
the same time though. I mean, this is what all
the training culminates for is, is, you know,
we might have this once in an entire career.
Yep. It is, man. And every time we talk about
it, it's still like when you make that influence
on someone's life and they're like, my kid wants
to thank you. It's like, shit, man. Like you,
you, you, you know, and then, um, you know, then
you really, you did your job, man. You did, you,
you did what you're supposed to do and you affected
the guys next to you. Not just a civilian. Now
you've saved those lives. And they all quit,
man. They all quit. And that's what really hit
me. I was like, it's not my identity all of a
sudden. You know, it's not. So it was tough,
man. Talking and listening to what you're saying,
it reminds me, when I went to my first apartment,
which was Hialeah, we had to do a pretty stringent
swim test. I mean, genuinely, like, you know,
laps underwater and some basic towing and all
that kind of thing. And I had a lifeguard background,
so I was okay with it. but Hialeah has canals
running down it. And so you're not really in
long bodies of water. I think there was one pond
in one of the parks, Amelia Earhart Parks. We
did some diving in that, but they had, every
rig had scuba tanks. So every one of us was expected
to do some sort of dive rescue. Right. And then
we did like a kind of a very condensed version
up to rescue diver. And I already had my advanced
then, but we didn't get the rescue syrup. But
again, you know, we're doing dive training for
like a full week and in the shittiest places,
not in a beautiful ocean. But it really made
me think because when I worked for Orange County,
which is the one around Orlando, there are lakes
everywhere. And there was no requirement to be
able to swim whatsoever. And I ended up getting
assigned to a boat station. My engineer was a
former lifeguard as well. And there was no training.
No training on, you know, like official training
on how to drive the boat, back it into the lake,
how to go in, how to backboard in the water.
You know, none of that stuff. So we obviously
ended up putting our own training together. And
I would argue we were probably the best trained
crew of the three shifts at the time. But we
would have people float into the station that
had no idea. And some of them couldn't even swim.
So you put that in that situation. Someone's
drowning. And this person is either fumble fucking
trying to get the boat in the water in the first
place or they can get to the person, but they
can't actually get in and pull them out. So it's
something that we don't really discuss in the
fire service as much. And don't get me wrong.
If you're in a place with zero bodies of water,
then I get it. You don't need a swim test. But
for anyone, you know, where you have lakes and
ponds and rivers and streams and canals, you
know, that really should be a prerequisite for
any position. Yeah, and we trained hard, man.
You had swimming pool training, I think, every
Tuesday or Wednesday, whatever it was. So you
were swimming there, too, and almost every ship,
you were taking the boat out. So at least three
guys, four guys took the boat out on the hooch,
and everyone else ran all the calls, and then
next shift, you guys swapped out. So, yeah, man,
you're always getting your driver training in,
rescue diver, whatever it was. So, no, man, guys,
everyone knew their roles well, but when the
floods came, everyone knew exactly where they
were going, too. Like you don't, it's not, it's
not training time, man. This is go time. So yeah,
good training. Now that department had a good
chief roads that came right when I left and they
were developing skin diver into rescue diver.
Now they have actual programs in place. But,
you know, when I was there, it was all the way
up to 2013 and there was nothing at that time.
So it's crazy to think, you know, we'll talk
about the mental health and the lack of, you
know, conversations and tools there. Well, even
operationally, how many departments are kind
of winging, you know, brush fires, water rescues,
et cetera. Totally. And that's where you get
your good crews, man. And they're like, we'll
take our own training, which is still today,
as you know. We'll take our own training in our
own hands. And that's the beauty of before us,
the guys who wrote the policies and do this stuff.
You always got to give them credit and thank
those guys. But yeah, man, training is everything.
You will not rise up, man. You're training. And
especially on the water, you have zero chance.
The river doesn't care. You mentioned this. What
were some of the things that you were taught?
would work in training that didn't seem to work
in the real world at least the application that
you were in well you had like z rigs and prusiks
and stuff like that and people the water people
know this and knots people man there was zero
time and safeties and backup safeties no get
rid of them and the seconds count like seconds
do count man i remember i just remember having
a knife and cutting prusiks all they get to get
rid of this crap right now get rid of it no no
time at all you know you're two to one three
to one uh advantages just there was just nothing
man when the first the first guys who went out
the first team i give them all the credit man
i was second team these guys had to set up and
there was nothing like okay is that street sign
going to hold us and they're waiting out man
they could have been pulled out at any time and
just shot downstream and uh they just found anchor
points man and they we just figured it out with
not systems but as far as backups and everything
you didn't have time and you're carrying rope
too it's like carrying a host you still only
have 250 feet of inch and three quarters the
same thing of this this rope if you're tying
backup backup backups you're losing you know
rope it's the same thing you just don't have
time and you're extending yourself so i would
say the prusik was definitely one we uh cut and
got rid of and again it has its purpose this
is just a totally different unique situation
Well, I mean, that seems to be the contrast between,
for example, a hazmat operation, which we all
know is far slower than we realize until we start
training with those guys. But I've said this,
for example, you have someone trapped under a
car and you pull on scene. Do you want to be
pulling out airbags and cribbing? Or are you
a crew that trains a lot? You put your back to
the car. you lift the car while someone slides
that person out i mean there has to be a point
where you know yes if you have the time for redundancy
and safety absolutely it makes perfect sense
if you're going to be going between two buildings
and someone's in a stokes basket and you've got
time then yeah you do you want to make as safe
as possible but You know, there's certain areas
where, I mean, we see an FDNY when they do those
rope rescues over the side. That's just one guy
belaying off the top and the other one's just
kind of wrapped around his waist or her waist.
So, yeah, I think that's an important conversation
because we have the cops that will kick in a
door and a fire and go in there with no protection
and pull someone out and they'll get an award.
And the fire service, if you don't go in with
your partner, you're freelancing and you get
written up. Exactly. Well, we have this place
that's called Drowning Rock because when the
river comes up, it flows. It comes up really
high, and it's a huge rock. But when it flows,
the river doesn't care. It goes up probably at
least 10, 12 foot, way over the rock. So you
have fishermen who fish out there, and they ignore
the sirens. One rescue we had, and they're wearing
waders, so they're dead. You know, that water
catches them. They're gone. And Drowning Rock
for a reason. Just to talk about theory and practice,
man, you're on a time frame. So that call comes
out. You've got to bunker out. You've got to
get all your ropes up on this. You've got to
go. And this guy has minutes, right? And we're
pretty close. But anyway, we get out there, and
we see the guy out there on the rock. Water's
coming up. Water's coming up. And there's a huge
strainer, which is a tree that went down. You
can't see. It's got all of its—basically, if
you fall in water, you're dead. It pulls you
and just kills you. And he's right next to a
strainer, too. And our driver, man, phenomenal.
He's, you know, he's getting the boat close,
getting the boat close, but we can't get close
enough. And I'm the rescue guy. And again, theory
is he's going to jump in the boat. We're just
going to pull him in. Well, we get about a foot
away, which is incredible because we can't have
anything get sucked up into the boat or kill
us dead in the water. This guy, then instead
of I go to grab him, he pulls back, pulls me
head first into the damn tree. That knocks me
unconscious. And I'm like, my other rescue driver
falls in the water. I'm like, well, this guy's
dead. And now I have pretty much a concussion,
so I grab this dude. I'm pissed as shit. Throw
him on the ground. Shake it off. I'm like, where
the hell is our rescue diver? He's, thank God,
awesome. He's on top of one of the damn tree
limbs. So we go and get him and get back. But,
yeah, man, I had a concussion. I went back to
the doctors. I had a huge contusion. But that's
real life, man. People freak out, and they will
kill you, especially in the water, just like
that. Do the public know it's called Drowning
Rocks? That sounds like a fucking awful place
to go fishing. They do. It'd be like going to
Herpes Corner. I wouldn't go there either. Of
course they do. It's like, let's go there and
go fish. Yes, they do, unfortunately. One more
thing in Swiftwater. I got to go up to the Guardian
Center in Georgia a few years ago and get a tour.
Amazing. Absolutely incredible. The training
potential of that facility. With you being in
Georgia and being Swiftwater, did you ever train
over there? Never. No, we trained. Everything
was in -house and on the Chattahoochee. And we
would actually go to Six Flags in Cobb County
and all the Swiftwater teams would go there and
train. So it was pretty incredible. So you had
the best of the best, man, once a year. And it
was either two or three days of training with
everybody. So you got great mutual training,
man, with everybody. So if you had a big incident,
you knew exactly who everybody was, too. And
everyone was on the same page, man. So it was
really good stuff. Gotcha. What about martial
arts? You kind of alluded to that early in life.
I've been a lifelong martial artist myself. What
was the first one that you did? And walk me through
the progression, how you ended up teaching defensive
tactics. Sure, sure, man. So I was in high school.
It's funny. I went to high school with two Japanese
friends and very strict Japanese household mothers
from Japan. So they're like, we're going to introduce
you to a martial art. And that was like going
into heaven. Like they would never introduce
you to their sensei or whatever. So I go like,
we think you're ready. You know, this is how
you got to act because I'm, you know, like a
dumb Westerner. I'm going to say something stupid.
Right. So bring me into this old, old Aikido
school where the guy actually trained with Osensei,
the founder. And man, it was awesome. It was
just beat down. It was old school martial arts.
And I was like, I am hooked. You know, I'm loving
this. I was already playing ice hockey and all
that. But I'm like, this is this is exhausting.
And, um, just incredible. They brought this Marine
guy came and he was like, I want to check this
out. I don't believe in this guy. Instructors
like, okay, let's go, man. He beat the hell out
of this Marine. This dude was huge for like two
or minutes. And the Marine submitted, which was
insane. And I'll never forget. Cause I know my
dad is a Marine. Like there was no way in hell
when this guy tapped out, it was like, I was
done. I was like, what? Like it was, it wasn't
even fathomable. And this was probably, you know,
late eighties. I was like, damn, man, I'm digging
this pretty good. So trained in that for years,
man. Um, a long time. Then I got a kind of Okinawan
karate shuriru. Got into that a little bit. I
kind of like the harder style, too. And eventually
I've trained in everything, man. Just seminars
all over the place, too. And again, Brazilian
jiu -jitsu, some jiu -jitsu then, too. Went to
Japan in 2012. Did some competing and training
over there. And then got into defensive tactics.
It's just a natural progression, man. I've told
this on here a few times. What was funny for
my journey is, you know, I did Shotokan originally.
WTF Taekwondo originally, then Shotokan for a
while, then ITF Taekwondo, which I won national
titles. And I'm like, okay, well, I must be somewhat
decent at fighting. And then I went to boxing
and got murdered and realized I wasn't. And then
started kickboxing and then was doing my tippy
-tappy Taekwondo stuff and got my standing leg
completely destroyed. And okay, well, I'm not
good at that either. Then got into jujitsu and
then like, oh, and then if you fall down, I'm
terrible at that too. So it was like this constant,
you know, humbling. Now there is that cumulative,
you know, knowledge, of course. The martial arts,
the taekwondo served me well doing the stunts
that I did my whole career as well. But it was,
you know, it was a kind of deconstructing of
everything you've learned and trying to, you
know, refine what actually will work, you know,
and what works for you. Like I'm long, I'm not
super powerful. So, you know, what is your style
in the end? What has been your journey from Aikido
originally, which I did for a few months, from
Aikido all the way through to where you are today?
Man, it's been long. It's nonstop. I don't roll
like BJJ anymore, really. My body's beat up,
man. I mean, this job has destroyed me too. I
definitely need some surgeries and stuff, but
I still put, I have my own garage gym and I still
do what you would call an MMA in there. I got
heavy bags and do a lot of heavy kegs and put
everything together now, man. But no, it was
an introspective journey, like you said. You
find out what works and doesn't work, and you
have to drop your ego when some dude can whoop
your ass because there's always someone better
than you all the time. Just get rid of that ego.
The biggest thing is, as a beginner, just know
it's going to be okay. Just tap out fast, learn
something, and just keep – and that's why I always
used to go to different seminars, man, and just
learn from different people. Always wore a white
belt. I didn't care. Hey, do you train? Nope,
don't train in anything. And just go in there
and learn their style for a day or two. Just
take it for what it was, man. But, you know,
I would say us old school guys are pretty much
original MMA because we were always doing different
stuff in that regard. We were always trying to
be more well -rounded. Boxing, like you said,
hitting stuff, always striking. And when you
go to the Aikido seminar, then they'll be like,
you guys don't do Aikido. Like, yeah, we do.
And nothing you do here is Aikido. Like, yeah,
man, it's just the real stuff. And like, yeah,
you're really not welcome here. So we also got
that side too. Yeah, the Aikido I did, I really
loved it, but it was called Ki Aikido. And it
was kind of a lot of that, grab my hand, no,
no, no, grab the other hand. Oh yeah, know it
well. You definitely got an introduction into
using someone else's force, which, I mean, that
applies to a lot of things. There is value to
that. Obviously some of the wrist locks and the
places that the joints can go and can't go. So
it was really, really good. But yeah, that was
very reminiscent of it worked well if you came
in this one particular. playing with this right
arm versus you know what we see in in the the
madness of a real fight where you know the original
barrage you're just trying to survive and then
whatever you can grab hold of you're like okay
i think i know where i am now and that's where
you really start you know going and fd definitely
taught me a lesson all the years in fd i would
definitely put it together uh you know you have
someone on drugs or diabetic that you couldn't
get a wrist lock on that person like they were
they're trying to kill you because they have
no idea What is happening to them? And then once
I eventually got into police work, you know,
it's full -on fights, man. It's very different,
too. You know, it's survival. In the dojo, whatever,
you're not killing this person. There's always
a tap -out. There's a choke -out. No, man, in
police work, they're trying to kill you. It's
very different. Different mentality. I had Tony
Blauer on several years ago now. Talk to me about
Spear and how you value that in the overall system.
Oh, my God, man. Very, like you said, very eye
opening to order martial artists, black black
belt. And, you know, during COVID, we couldn't
train. No one could train anymore. So I found
Tony online, man. And I started doing Zoom classes.
I'm like, this is so dumb. Like, how is this
going to work for martial arts? But Tony, his
situational awareness and the way his mindset
approaches things is. It's second to none, man.
Him and Chief Pearson, just unbelievable, man,
what they say. And then they take our job, basically,
and relate it. Because Tony pretty much, he's
trained SEALs, Delta Force. He's trained everybody.
And when you start seeing that and the mindset
that he gets you for, the fear loop. The fear
loop's incredible. He talks about when we play
sports. He's like, I'm this good, but why am
I always afraid? And that was the same thing.
And I played ice hockey forever. I was a goalie,
man. And it's a total. mind screw at all times
like i'm making all these saves but that negativity
still in the back of my head like what is going
on here man and he just he just really good with
addressing the mind and and real fights and how
they happen so close and non -violent posture
so yeah man started training with tony for years
online until we got back into gear and then a
couple years ago went up and trained with him
in york pennsylvania and got my uh spear certification
and uh man for for police work and firefighters
i i cannot recommend it enough It is just outstanding.
It's a mindset. And it's making, it's not a martial
art. It's a total mindset. He calls it the airbag.
It's a shock where it gets your flinch response
into action. And it's incredible because it's
what Tony always says. It's not what you think
what you're going to do. It's what you're going
to do. If a spider drops on the ceiling, you're
going to do this. Everyone says, well, I wouldn't
blink. Okay. And then you drop something on their
head and they go like this. It's human nature,
man. And he just plays off that body. body mechanics
and his again his thought process is incredible
beautiful well you mentioned law enforcement
so what made you transition from the fd side
to the pd side uh you know definitely the trauma
uh horrendous command staff uh just absolutely
horrendous they they definitely start targeting
people and going after you and it was my turn
for the bullseye man you know when these are
these are just bad people these are evil people
and um There's a lot documented, but anyway,
when the job is getting to you and then your
command staff is definitely after you, things
are a whole other different level, man. Mandatory
overcame in 2013, and they still do it now a
lot. 48 hours on, 24 hours off. Nobody knows.
Keep it down low. But they're probably working.
A new guy is probably working seven to eight
shifts extra a month. A month. Exactly. So they
don't give two shits. Give me two or three years
out of you now, and that's it. So when that started,
I tell everyone this story. I was at the original
meeting. I'm like, this can't fly. Like, oh,
it'll be okay. I'm like, it'll never be okay.
It'll never go away. Still going on today, 13
years later. My daughter said she was like seven.
I was missing another birthday. And she said,
it's okay, Dad. We're used to you not being here.
She had no idea. And I was like, F my life. This
is it. This is it. Me and my wife, we're done.
And then that was it. So that's when the transition.
But no, they definitely helped push us out, too.
They definitely went on to the other side. When
you reflect back now, because what you're talking
about is Marion County here, is Orange County.
I mean, you know, these are departments that,
you know, when I was at Orange was 08 to 2013.
And when I was there in 08, it was mandatory
all the time, especially. They were screaming
for medics. I put myself through medical school.
They gave me zero tuition reimbursement or support
and then put me in the meat grinder as well.
I mean, it was that organizational betrayal that
we talk about. But what really just blows my
mind, I think maybe I even alluded to this in
that last article, I can't remember, but I don't
understand how... You were once in a fire academy
with everyone else wearing bunker gear and doing
the tunnels, you know, doing the collapse mazes
and all these things. And then fast forward 10,
15 years later, you're pushing papers in a desk,
knowing that the men and women, you know, that
working under you are getting crucified, really
working hours because of your mismanagement.
And you still sleep finer at night. I do not
understand that outside of that is also a mental
health issue that we're not addressing. Because
only a sociopath would be able to sleep when
their men and women are being worked into the
ground. And that's what I call the evil side.
So I'll tell you, it was in 2017, it got so bad.
And, you know, I call them the sheeple. Those
are the guys who agree with the chiefs no matter
what. Well, he's a good guy. He just can't do
anything. No, he's in a freaking leadership position.
It's his damn job to do a lot better than this.
So they started saying, you know, the chief's
supposed to be up. The shift changes at 7. Chief's
supposed to be up at 6 a .m., having manpower
locked out. So you knew if you were on mandatory
or you were not. So people would call, like,
do I have to stay late? I have a life. So finally,
they said after six months, the chiefs were tired
of this because no one was working anymore. They
said, do not call us ever again. So if you called
the chief to see if you had to work mandatory,
you were written up. So they would put paper
on you, too. Then it finally became the next
year, you had to find your own staffing in the
morning. You had to find your own damn manpower.
to go home if you wanted to go home. So I'll
tell you a story about a guy. He quit shortly
after, thank God. Phenomenal dude, and he helped
me definitely get out. So this buddy finds his
driver because, you know, only guys can drive
certain apparatus and all that. He gets James
to come in to work. So he's like, yeah, James
has got me covered 7 o 'clock tomorrow morning.
7 .05 comes. He's not there. 7 .15, he's still
not there. He's calling. The guy's not answering.
They're basically telling this guy don't answer
the phone. He finally calls the chief. They're
like, why are you calling me? He's like, uh has
anyone seen this guy he's like yeah i took him
i moved him somewhere else you're staying anyway
and he's like god yes so he found his own manpower
they said thanks for doing my job because i'm
useless and he said okay no problem he had to
stay till like noon then went home and he's like
i'm done he quit so it was great good for him
man but that's how bad it became and it's still
horrible but they hide it very well well this
is what blows my mind you know you've probably
seen the stuff that i put out trying to help
these departments go to 24 72 and again i'm merely
just you know creating the conversation bringing
resources on the physical side the mental side
and then departments have done it it is not james
gearing doing this by any means it's the amazing
men and women these departments have the balls
to say yeah it's not working let's do something
different yep but when and i'm just about to
get the gains of all guys on they're supposed
to be this morning but they had to reschedule
but now we're having departments telling you
know, what a huge success this is. And, you know,
the money that they're saving and that every,
you know, there's no vacancies now. Every single
spot that's filled, like Pasco County was three
shifts understaffed two years ago. Now they're
four fully staffed shifts. And about two weeks
ago, they went to 2472. Two years. And it's a
county, all they had was a six -week Kelly before.
That's it. Incredible. When you have these answers,
this is what drives me crazy. And I relate to
your friend because when my last shift, I finally
got to get off the rescue and be on the engine,
riding up, driving for a shift, ran a code, got
back and was told, actually, you're going to
be on the rescue the rest of the shift and you're
on the bubble to be mandatory. And I'm a single
dad at this time. And I've gone through the process
with another department and I'm still waiting
to do the medical. And I was like, you know what?
Fuck this. You cannot tell a single father that
he can't go home to his child. It doesn't fucking
work like that. They don't care. So I was like,
all right, well, I'm not going to be here next
shift because I fucking quit. And I put my papers
in right there and then took the leap, luckily
passed the medical, which I was assuming I would,
and then got hired at the other place. But it
was just one of those things where... you know
people have lives people have marriages people
have relationships with their children and promises
to be at events that you are destroying and you
go home at five o 'clock every night so anyone
that's listening that's in that position look
yourself in the mirror and and ask yourself how
the fuck is that fair it's not and so either
one of two things either a You kind of have a
realization. You say, you know what? You're right.
We have to actually do something about it. This
isn't fair. And this is why I'm making the salary
that I am with the bugles on my shirt. Or, you
know, that's why I'm the union president or vice
president, because some of them are fucking awful
too. It's time for me to step up. Or B, you realize
that you just don't have the guts to be in that
position. You need to step down, let someone
with a set actually do it. Because these are
real human lives. And we all know that sleep
deprivation. is directly correlated with everything
from obesity and testosterone depletion to cancer,
suicide, and addiction. Yep. Absolutely, man.
And, you know, it's funny, and I'm sure you,
because it was the other guy, when he walks out,
all the guys are like, well, he sold us out,
man. That's where we eat our own, too. Like,
that guy, he shouldn't have been here anyway.
He wasn't ready for this job. No, man. That's
the only damn guy who had balls and said, I'm
done with this shit. I'm getting out of here,
man. Yeah, and it's not a lack of love of the
job. We all love the job. Oh, God, absolutely.
Were you told that you were going to work 80
hours a week in Fire Academy? I wasn't. Nope.
So it's not the job. It's the working conditions.
And the guys now, men and women in Pasco County
and Gainesville, they're working 42 hours a week
and loving the job. And they are rested and chomping
at the bit to get back for the next shift. That's
how it's supposed to be. And who gets better
care? The civilians, the public. It just all
works. Yep. Instead of this is how we've always
done things, suck it up. Yep. 100%. Well, I want
to go to your mental health journey, but let's
just continue the career story. So you take the
leap from FD to PD. Talk to me about that transition
and then what was the leadership that you were
under in that? Night and day, man. Thank God.
I would say my first 10, 12 years, the Chiefs
were phenomenal in FD. Just phenomenal. Like
you talked about, they did what you did and they
carried it on. They were incredible. Unfortunately,
we transitioned to these horrible individuals
from other departments, brought them in, weren't
really firefighters, full -time paramedics, and
didn't care much for the fire side. Well, this
is a 1 ,100 -person department of all firefighting,
so that didn't go too well. So they took over,
man, and I started transitioning. I'm like, I
got to get out of this. So I started looking
at Orson, got into Orson, couldn't get a job
with the department, so I transitioned over to
our PD department. So I made a couple guys, and
we get hired by the police department, same county.
get a picture taken for post, all that, go through
all the testing, have my final interview, waiting
on the chief interview. And I'm still waiting.
I'm like, something's wrong. I already know if
this place is going to, you know, can't let you
go. We're too short. You know, all of our staffing
problems that we created can't let you go to
the police side now. So you're stuck here. I'm
like, no. But meanwhile, I was like, nope. So
did my time, got all my PTO out of the way, took
off it. And I had 18 years, man, so a lot of
PTO to burn. So eventually got out, went to the
police side. Just night and day, man. I definitely,
again, I love the fire side. Nothing bad to say.
I just have bad things to say about the command
staff people. Loved who I worked with, phenomenal
folks. And police side was just very different.
More military, for sure. Definitely more structured,
more. And I really like that part. I do like
that. And then defensive tactics. Towards the
end, we had a lot of staging instead. I'm not
a big stager. I don't care for that at all. I
like the police side where I can just go right
in the front damn door and handle things too.
That's who I am. I love it. So yeah, man, got
on the PD side. Really, really loved it. I had
some crazy calls, of course. One of my first
things I want to do is drop my medic. I'm like,
I'm done with EMS shit. I'm done. I don't have
to do this. I'm a police officer, right? I think
it was my third shift in. I get a cardiac arrest
10 minutes by myself. Nobody. So I'm like, you
know what? I think I'm going to keep my EMS.
It's kind of handy. Yeah. So I might have been
done with it, but God had other plans. So it
was, man. And it was good for the past. The firefighters
were like, who the hell is this dude? What are
you saying to us? You're saying medic terms and
all that. So it was funny, man. So, yeah. And
I've continued my medic. I'm going to be a medic
25 years here at the end of this year. So still
do my medic too. As you know, we beat Fire in
a lot. We're just faster in their bunker and
out. So we beat them to a lot of scenes. So it
has definitely paid off, to say the least, man.
It's been good. Did you ever do the SWAT medic
stuff? I did not. No. My wife swore once I got
off Swiftwater that there's never going to be
a specialty team in my life. I've tried. If you
could work on her, that would be great. But she's
not letting me do it. So what about from the
shift point of view, the transition from the
mandatory world to what you're working as a cop?
Yeah, it was great. I don't think I did overtime
the first two years, like hardly ever. It was
awesome. You know, it was absolutely incredible.
Now you're 12 on. It's a different schedule.
Sometimes it's two on, two off, two on, three
off. It kind of rotates, but I love it. You know,
our bodies, I'm so used to shift work that I
just loved it. Absolutely. The only time you
got stuck on a call was like a bad fatality or
a murder. And then you were just waiting on someone
to relieve you. But no, man, they want you out
the door. And it was also flex time too. So if
James stays till 7 .05. You're leaving five minutes
early tomorrow. And they want to make sure of
that, too. So, oh, my God, just night and day,
man. And just what a relief to what a relief.
Well, let's talk about your mental health journey
then. So you obviously told the post -Swiss water
story. You know, where where were some of the
lowest points that you got to? Definitely, you
know, your child, your child deaths, man. My
real low was we had. I can't remember. It's in
my book. I think we had eight fatalities in 12
days, maybe five kids. And man, I just hit it.
I hit my low, start drinking like a damn heavy.
Because alcohol works. And that's the problem.
So what happens when something works? We do more
and more and more. And then it doesn't work.
And now you're in trouble, man. So a lot of fatalities.
I asked for help. Went to the chief. I still
remember the conversation. I said, hey, man,
my crew is... Phenomenal. Station 11, man. Top
notch. We run 85 -285 in Georgia, which is one
of your busiest interstates, probably in the
world, second to LA. And I'm like, we need some
help. And he's like, I don't think so, man. I
think the guys are good. I'm like, I'm the lieutenant.
I'm telling you, I know my crew. So he just yells
out, hey, do you need help over there? And of
course, everyone's cutting up. Chief, I'm good.
And I'm like, what the hell is this? He said
he's good, lieutenant. Nothing else to say here.
And that was like, wow, okay. So I knew I was
hitting a low, man. And I just knew I needed
to look in the mirror. I definitely had to start
looking in the mirror. I actually wrote a letter
to the deputy chief. I said, this crew is struggling.
I'm one of them. I still had the letter. I might
have trashed it a couple years ago because it
was just one of those things I held on to. And
I said, we need help. The deputy chief came back
and said, you are exactly like the water department,
P -Shock. You are no different at all, and this
is what you signed up for. That's what he said
to me, the water department. I said, that's funny,
Chief, because I never saw him out at Christmas
sitting out here in this freezing cold or outside
of here ever, because he ain't nothing like us
at all. And no disrespect, they ain't doing shit
that we're doing on holidays and everything else
here. So, yeah, this guy didn't care at all for
any of us. So I went to the chief and the deputy
chief. So, you know, back then we had CISM, CISD,
and I was on the team because I had a lot of
bad calls. Once you get all the bad calls, you
do a one -day class or whatever, and they're
like, you're going on this team. You're going
to go talk to this guy. And so I thought that
would be better, but it was not good, man. It
wasn't bad. Probably maybe 2014, 15, we had another
bad fatality call. I can't remember if the mom
killed the kid or whatever, but we had CISM come
in too, and we were not happy. It was accumulation,
of course. You know, your anger, your frustration,
you don't know why. And we lashed out at these
dudes. We're cursing up a storm. And these were
two guys, headquarters personnel, who never could
make it in the field. So we talked about that.
They probably did two years on the job, got up
to headquarters as fast as they can. And now
they are both captains, you know, 10 years and
useless. And they came in this meeting and they
said, if anyone curses in this meeting again,
this meeting is over. So these are guys unloading
on a diffusing, which you're supposed to do.
So, of course, that brought every F -bomb in
the world out. from everybody in that meeting,
they said, this defusing is over. And they walked
out of the damn station. So we all looked at
each other like, who's going to help us now?
Like, I guess we're it. And all we had was anger
and rage. And they literally got in their cars
and drove away, man. So I just knew I had to
continue on and just try to find my own path,
really. I had to make my own path because there
was no one to help, man. So talk to me about
that. What did that look like? What was the accumulation
of tools that work for you? Uh, yeah. So, um,
my first, I went to EAP first. I wasn't sure,
you know, went to my EAP and they're like, okay,
we're gonna give you a, um, you know, a psychologist
clinician. So I go there and I tell her about
a child fatality and she starts crying. I'm like,
this is not good. So I feel like the biggest
piece of shit in the world. Cause I just made
the clinician cry. I made everyone else cry in
my world. Now the clinician is crying and there's
no one left. So not trauma specific, you know,
you know, the deal. And, uh, She's like, I'm
so sorry. I'm like, she's like, I apologize that
you have to see this stuff every day. I'm like,
yeah, I do. I got to do it tomorrow too. So that
meeting ended horribly. So she sent me up with
somebody else two weeks later. I start telling
her some stories and I'm unloading, you know,
and she's like, well, just quit. So I'm like,
what do you mean? She's like, you need to quit.
I said, ma 'am, I need this job. At the time
I had a kid, wife, a house. I said, I can't quit.
She's like, well, this can't continue. I said,
this is not an option. And that was her only
solution for me. No, no tricks, no magic hocus
pocus, nothing. Quit. So I left her. So I definitely
have some problems with therapists to say the
least. And I have no problem saying this right
now. Therapists need to step up their game. And
now that I'm a peer support coordinator and I
deal with a lot and sometimes trauma specific,
it is not OK that we have to see four or five
clinicians before we get help. Our suicide rates
are insane. We're losing people constantly and
therapists need to do better too. And the saying
now, I hear it in all the damn seminars. Sometimes
you got to shop. It's going to take you four
or five. No. Do I have four or five chances to
save that kid's life? I got one and you have
the same damn responsibility. So step up. That's
my little thing there. Sorry. Well, I think,
I mean, you can have. I've had a lot of people
in that world, you know, they have specialties,
but the problem is a lot of the good, you know,
culturally competent clinicians that I know are
saying that, you know, you'll go on the site
and they say they specialize in children and
marriage and first responders and military. And
that's just bullshit. You know, this is the problem
is that, you know, if you don't work with us,
that's great, but then don't advertise that you
work with us. So then we don't, you know, shop
that wrong person. But, you know, I know there's
also a high demand for, you know, mental health
practitioners in our world. And it is a very
specific area. Most people, I mean, we talked
about, you know, some of your worst calls. I
threw a couple of mine. You know, this is just,
you know, in a week, you know, we have this week
in, week out. So it is a very unusual population.
So, you know, that really should be one of the
strong tracks in psychology that you can go to,
but there should be. stipulations that you cannot
advertise that you are well -versed in our population
if you are not well -versed in our population
because i've heard these eap nightmare stories
so many times exactly and you nailed it you totally
nailed it i went to one uh last year trauma specific
said i need a trauma specific clinician no problem
just put me on hold said how does three weeks
sound i said three weeks i need to talk to someone
now like we don't have anybody i'm like Okay.
Finally, I said, we'll send you somebody in a
couple days. I waited a couple days. Went in
there, talked to him. First thing he wanted to
do was create a safe space for me. I just want
you safe. I wanted the mood right. I'm like,
is someone punking me? Is this a joke? Because
this is not what we do, man. And it was not good
either. So that was not a good session either,
man. And I have someone pretty good now. But
most of the stuff I found is through getting
into the peer classes. The journey took me about
2022. I went to this state Georgia class, and,
man, it was a hell of a class. It woke me up.
The stuff they were talking about, I wouldn't,
like, crawl under my seat because I was like,
we don't talk about things like this ever. I
couldn't believe people were actually discussing
what is really going on. And this was just the
instructors who would just jam up, man. Of course,
they were in shootings. They had just horrible,
horrible calls. And then they brought in the
guest speakers, man, and the guest speakers,
like, I was just spellbound. And then it kind
of hit me, man. I'm like, this is my why. I'm
going to use all my shitty calls for my entire
life, and this is it, man. And that got me into
my why and my purpose in life, and that's what
I've done now the last four years, man, and that's
where I am. You mentioned that you finally found
a counselor that was the right fit. What other
tools have you found of help for you specifically?
Oh, yeah, I apologize, definitely. So martial
arts for sure, PT. PT is everything, man. It's
probably the only thing that kept me alive when
no one else could help me. I call it letting
the demons out, man. Get outside. I have a garage
gym. We used to have guys who came over for years,
and we just trained any martial arts. We just
trained on the ground. I had some mats we threw
down, and we just threw down for a while. But
now it's just training my garage. Lift heavy
kegs. I do a lot of sandbag work, a lot of HIIT
workouts. Two minutes on, one minute off, just
super fast. Big into Wim Hof, man. I do breathing.
I've got to get my breathing in, too. That is
a necessity. too and then i journalized helped
me write my book and uh putting things on paper
really changed my life too um if you don't there's
it's all bullshit there's no execution once you
put it on paper and you wrote it and you see
it it just it's a total game changer too man
so those three i would say the big things beautiful
well mentioning the book then you know what what
gave you the idea to initially actually put together
the book together and then talk to me about the
catharsis of any writing sure uh you know trauma's
funny we talk about it black stuff out it it
makes stuff disappear and uh if we remember man
i want to talk about a call uh remember charlotte
if i if we can get to her just remember charlotte
because we will do it trauma too thank you anyway
so uh i felt like trauma was stealing from me
i called the demons they were cheating me And
I started, so I would be at work and I would
start writing emails to myself about calls I
was on. And I would send the email at home. So
once I got home, I started saving it into a folder.
So this was kind of my initial journalization,
man. And had a hip surgery. I was out for a while.
I said, man, let's just start this book. And
that class, that class just blew me away. And
she said in the class to teachers, she said,
some of you in here, I'm going to open up your
filing cabinet. I want you to be aware of that.
I'm like, this chick don't know nothing, man.
I remember saying, like, this chick's whacked.
And then that night, man, James, I went to bed
and the following cabinet opened and all the
damn burst that night. Hands down. All the trauma
came. Every call that I had blocked out, almost
every call because a lot of calls that I had
blacked out. So I started making phone calls,
man. I called my buddy Black Cadillac. I'm like,
hey, dude, did this happen? He's like, yeah,
Pete. And then remember this call, this call.
I'm like, no, I didn't do what you're talking
about. He's like, you did this, this, and this.
I'm like, no idea. So I started talking to other
people just to make sure, man. I was like. Did
it actually happen, man? Because I literally
blocked it out. I told you about the defense
mechanism. So I started writing the book, man,
and it was tough. You know, I wrote almost, I
didn't write some of the pediatric calls. They're
just too much. I just don't want to, I talk about
them, but I don't want them on paper. It's just
too much, man. But I wrote some, you know, just
like you, I wrote some of the really bad calls
that got in high detail. I talked about the one
girl who drowned. And I have no problem saying
it. It took me two weeks to get through that
chapter and a lot of whiskey. I couldn't get
through it. And I reached out to another writer,
man, Michael Sugru. And he doesn't know me. And
this was special, too. And I said, Michael, I
read your book. I loved it. But I can't write
anymore. He wrote me back this incredible email.
You have to do it. Your story is going to touch
one person. I was like, here's a celebrity to
me. Tell me this. And I'm like, and he helped
me, man. He helped me get over that hump that
I could not get over. I continued writing, man.
You got to get naked in a peer support world.
That's the bottom line. You got to show your
soul. People know if you're honest and if you're
full of shit real fast in this world, man. It
wasn't even a couple days, man. I sent it out.
I started getting emails and messages about people,
man, just saying thanks. I was like, wow. Wow.
It worked. It was for me, for therapy, and one
person. Then it made it to so many other people,
man. Just even, you know, it's just incredible.
It's absolutely incredible. And it's a scary
journey, man, as you know, because you're putting
your soul out there and I'm still on the job.
So I didn't know how that would go. You know,
they're going to fire my ass right away. But
it's worked out phenomenal, man. And getting
my name out there in that regard, get a phone
call yesterday. Hey, can we talk? I need to talk.
And they just not unload. They just tell me their
story and I give them something back, man. And
it's special, man. And it's really special. I'm
grateful. I found that with the book. with writing,
but also with the podcast, it's amazing when
people come on and they bare their souls and
you realize that all it is, is trust. That safe
space of that one guy with the lighting and the
music, it's not that. It's just, do you feel
comfortable with this person? Are they willing
to be vulnerable in the first place? That's it.
And I'm sometimes just amazed that within...
minutes of a conversation someone's just telling
me their deepest darkest story and i'm just like
i'm humbled by it like what a what a fucking
honor to be someone that you you know that someone
feels comfortable enough to really be vulnerable
really be honest really talk about you know what
they're going through because that's what we
need we're all good at the mask that's what we
do for a living totally but the real courage
comes from when you take the mask off yes Yeah,
it is, man. And I've had two or three calls where
people are in crisis about to end their lives.
And that is that is the call, man. That's better
than the rescues. That's better than the that
is something else, man. I remember telling that
to somebody and they were like, man, I'm glad
I'm not you. Like, what do you mean? Like, I
couldn't handle that call. And I didn't get it.
I was like, what do you mean? Like, what an honor
to have somebody reach out to you, literally
about to blow their fucking brains out. And this
is the last call. And it was you. It's incredible.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But this is what this
is all about. It's just being there as well.
And the goal is obviously not to have the call
when they're about to blow their brains out.
The goal is to have a call, you know, three clicks
back so that they're just starting to realize
there's something wrong and you get to them then.
Because back to the EAP, you know, you have a
bunch of numbers pinned on a board. You get someone
in crisis. They try one and it's disconnected
now. And they're like, you know what? Fuck it.
And then they do it. Bingo. And that's it. I've
said this many times. I've heard a lot of EAP
nightmare stories. What breaks my heart is how
many will I never hear? Because after that first
time, the person was like, well, I am fucked.
And then they just go and complete suicide. Totally.
And they make that phone call to you and your
phone's on do not disturb or hung up. And of
course, there's the guilt right there. But again,
you can't be there for everybody. You try, man,
but you have your own family too that has to
have some priority or you're going to be dumped
out of your life. You just need to have enough.
You got to be able to balance it. Yeah. Well,
I think this is something I've talked about recently.
You've got Blake in Georgia. You've got Dustin
Hawkins. You've got Mark Mycoskie over in Georgia
as well. A lot of these people who have put themselves
out there being vulnerable, and they are that
beacon. But the problem is they become overwhelmed.
I've seen it firsthand because they're fielding
all the calls now. And the goal is to have this
conversation where ultimately it's a buddy system.
You just literally find one person on the planet
to be there for, and they're there for you. And
that way, you know, it's highly unlikely that
you're going to miss when something's wrong.
But if everyone else is going about their business
or we've got the peer support team, they'll handle
it if there's anything wrong. We're missing the
entire point of being a human being. 100 percent.
I started the team, my new police department
with Milton Police. And they're phenomenal, man.
Just unbelievable. And I'm the team coordinator
and putting together the team right now. So in
Georgia, you have to go to this peer class. It's
a 40 hour class to be a peer counselor. And I
put my team together, man. I brought the state
in. We did interviews. And they go at the end
of this month. So they'll all be certified. So
it'll be me plus six. And it's gargantuous. And
I've already told a couple. I'm like, listen,
guys, I need you like ASAP. Like, I cannot handle
all this stuff I'm getting. And I need to be
able to talk to you and talk to somebody else
who gets it. Because, you know, you can't spill
anybody's. This is HIPAA and everything else,
man. You're in trouble. So I said, I cannot wait
till you guys are team members, man, so we can
all share this load. And just be ready, man.
It's heavy. And they'll go over that in the class.
Like, you don't understand how heavy it is till
the trauma stories keep one -upping each other.
And you're like, good God, really? And then you
just get stronger, of course, from it. One conversation
that I've been having recently that I realize.
In my opinion is the next phase. Now we have
this, you know, complete naivety, like, you know,
it sucks, rub some dirt in it, suck it up, buttercup,
you know, the bullshit mentality, the Rambo,
you know, generation. Then you have this, oh
shit, no, there is something wrong. We're starting
to have this conversation and everyone was using
the word PTSD. That's what we've got. Then we
move forward more to understanding moral injury,
organizational betrayal, TBI, operations syndrome,
et cetera, et cetera. So now we're fragmenting
and realizing, okay, there's lots of little pieces
within this. But I think the next conversation
that I think is probably the most important and
the most positive is actually performance. This
really became an aha moment when I saw some of
the naysayers. The guys are still hung on to
that Robocop bullshit. And I was like, all right
then, tough guy. If you don't think that this
whole mental health thing is a real thing, let
me put it differently. You now have all this
shit banging around your head, but you're not
addressing it. And now you're assigned to primary
search on the second floor. And your mind's so
busy that you can't even get to that flow state
where you're actually able to paint the building
with your hands and try and find that child who's
actually hiding under the bunk bed. Right. If
you want to operate at the high level in a gunfight,
whatever it is, we know that you need a high
level of stress, multiple repetitions, and a
calm mind. And if you don't have a calm mind,
you're never going to operate at a high level
as a police officer or a firefighter or as a
paramedic. What it made me realize on the physical
side, on the mental side, is if we just focus
on performance, not just, but that's like the
main kind of conversation, that's going to pull
everyone away from the crises as well, because
we're using the same exact tool, counseling,
getting the right amount of sleep, contrast therapy,
breath work, meditation, et cetera, et cetera.
These are the tools that our tier one operators
use, that our astronauts use, that all these
high performance Olympians. They are using those.
And so I think it's a really powerful conversation
now to shift away from the, oh, it's so sad mental
health conversation we've had for the last 10
years and make it a positive conversation and
not negate the fact that some people might be
in crisis and bringing those in. But when those
people are like, oh, no, no, you're just further
back on the scale to this performance conversation
that we're having. We don't want you to be. just
okay or just get back to work we want you to
get back to work and now be more resilient because
of the shit that you've been through that becomes
a fucking superpower and you're going to be more
you know compassionate more empathetic and you're
going to be able to operate at even higher level
under stress because you've been through this
stuff so i feel like that that's the next chapter
of this mental health conversation in our profession
is to get away from you know, oh, let's try and
die less, which is our physical conversation.
It's our mental conversation to, well, let's
talk about how we can shave, you know, half a
second off your shooting time and how we can
keep your heart rate low after you've climbed
to the 10th floor before you do a primary search.
That's the conversation we should be having.
So I don't know, you know, what your perspective
of that, but I feel like we need to almost kind
of slough the old. sad doom and gloom mental
health conversation and reframe it to mental
performance. And then obviously not negating
the fact that some people's baseline at this
point might be crisis and we've just got more
work to do then. Definitely. We started a group.
I'm helping a group out. It's called Phoenix
Fund. This guy Will runs it. Anyway, he's an
Atlanta PD cop. And we started from North Georgia.
It's once a month. We meet at a church. And basically
it's trauma. You just come and it's a... run
like an AA. So you just come, you can tell your
story or just listen to others, man. And it's
starting to go great, man. We're getting a bunch
of different departments who show up, you know,
of course, no recordings and like that. And you
can just listen or you can talk, man. And we
do, you know, we do diffusings, we do debriefings,
but it stops after that too. There's no check
-ins really per se. We're offering you your four
sessions of therapy. This is great, man, in that
you're in your street clothes. You don't have
to talk about your department. And you just go
and talk, man, if you want to. We've had some
just unbelievable stories already. And everyone
in that group is just growing. And it's just
word of mouth. And it's a nice next step that
is not offered by any departments. And it's bringing
anybody from North Georgia to speak. It's great.
Sounds amazing. That's just one part. But to
me, too, it's an orientation -based thing, and
I think that helps, too. Again, we've got to
transition. We're still losing way too many people.
Most medications ever, most treatment ever, still
suicides are through the roof. And everyone affects
me. I mean, that's it. When I see it again on
LinkedIn or Facebook, man, it hurts. It does.
I'm so over it, man, when it's the same reasons.
So I take it personally, too. And to me, it's
the orientations. We have some great departments
who day one, they start with your mental health,
with your spouse, too. This is what Dennis is
going to look like. This is how he's going to
change. We need you to know this right now from
the get go. And that works, man. And we're going
to continue this. And here's my phone number.
And when you hear veterans. open their souls
up to rookies man it definitely works it really
works and uh we just need that old guard to basically
get out like you said they still have that way
i'm good i'm good sure you are man retirement
and then you lost your identity and really know
what's going to happen but i think we're doing
better i really do but we got to do more i have
to do more i think we all can absolutely well
i want to throw some closing questions at you
before i let you go The first one I love to ask,
is there a book or other books that you love
to recommend? It can be related to our discussion
today or completely unrelated. I'm a reading
fanatic, James. Fanatic. I usually read two books
a night. Not totally, but I'll go be through
with that. Man, one book I love for trauma and
peer support, Terrorist Attack Girl. Have you
read that one? No, I haven't. I haven't even
heard of that. Oh, my God. Phenomenal. She is
the female. I think her name is Mai Lee. When
the Nairobi terrorist attack killed 21 people,
she was stuck in her hotel room. And it is intense.
And I read it before peer support, and now I
read it as a, quote, professional. Man, it's
mind -blowing. So she journalizes the entire
time as terrorists are going to kill her or whatever.
And Christian Craighead came in and killed them
all. That's another whole story. But her honesty
and her journal, it's word for word, is... It's
mind -blowing. It's only about a 200 -page book
too, man. But for therapy, yeah, that is one
that I unbelievably recommend, especially if
you're in the pure world. Beautiful. What about
documentary, film, or television? I don't watch
TV. I seriously don't. I am an anomaly. workout
fanatic, and reading fanatic. I don't know. I
haven't watched a movie in 10, 15 years. I can't
even tell you. That's admirable. It really is.
All right. Well, the next question then, is there
a person you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military, and associated professions of the world?
Did you have Mike Morgan on? I did, yes. You
did. How about Pat O 'Pian from USB Atlanta PD?
That name doesn't ring a bell. A -P -O -I -A
-N is his last name, Pat. Pat's a former Atlanta
police officer as well. On the job, on a felony
stop, got driven over on a burglary and almost
died multiple times. His story's pretty phenomenal,
his road to recovery, and then finally the department
just ditching him as well because they were done
with him on his recovery. But incredible, incredible
story and journey. I used to play ice hockey
with him. And I heard him on a podcast and it
was stuff I never even heard. It's funny, like
we talk about the honesty, knew him forever.
And then he goes on a podcast and tells these
stories. I'm like, where did this come from?
What the heck is this? And definitely recommend
him for sure. Brilliant. I'll look him up. Thank
you. Awesome. Yes, sir. All right. Well, the
last question before we make sure everyone knows
where to find the book and you, what you do to
decompress? Decompressed. Definitely, like I
said, work out. I got to work out tonight. It's
non -negotiable every single day. It has to be
done. I do my breath work in the morning. I make
sure. And I do a grateful journey, man. That's
what I do. I try to do it in the morning, but
it's three things, the three things I'm grateful
for. You'll be on one of it. You'll be one of
them this time. And, you know, it's either my
wife, my family, my dogs. I try to make it vary,
and then I'll write a paragraph about each one.
To me, that is unloading, man. It just shows
that no matter what I went through, I'm so grateful
for this life and everything I have. Love it.
Yeah, I don't do a paragraph, but I do the gratitude
journal in the morning and in the evening. And
it's awesome. It's amazing when you're forced
to think about something that you're grateful
for. It completely reframes what you haven't
got. Totally. It does, man. It really does. It's
a game changer. I just started maybe a year or
two ago and it has changed my life. It really
has. Beautiful. All right. Well, then for people
listening, the book is Demons and Angels. Where
can they find that? And then where are any places
to find you online? Yes, sir. So the book's on
Amazon, Demons and Angels. It's only on Amazon.
You can get it in any format, of course. I got
to pull my stuff up so I remember. Website is
pshokbooks .com is my last name, pshokbooks .com.
LinkedIn, it's just my name, Dennis Pshok. And
my Instagram is pshokspatriots. And that's it.
I don't do Facebook. So that's all my links right
there. Brilliant. Well, Dennis, it's been an
amazing conversation. We've gone all over the
place from Swiftwater Rescue to Organizational
Betrayal and everything in between. I want to
thank you so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thanks, James. Incredible honor.
I'm so happy. Thank you so much for having me.