WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Pioneer Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Geering, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show author,

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bodybuilder, and grief counselor, Jay Morgan

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Hirons. Now in this conversation, we discuss

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a host of topics from her early life in England,

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meeting her soulmate Gary, his deployment to

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the Falkland Islands, becoming a war widow, her

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powerful grief story, her near -death experiences,

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catharsis through fitness, using her grief journey

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to help others, writing, and so much more. Now,

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before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Jay...

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Morgan Hirons. Enjoy. Well, Jay, I want to start

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by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Stu

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Henderson for making this connection, even though

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it was a long time ago now. We were just struggling

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to remember who it was, or I was at least, before

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we hit record. So thank you, Stu. And secondly,

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I want to welcome you to the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Thank you for having me on, James.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you this

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afternoon? I'm in London, where I've been for

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over 30 years now. Whereabouts in London? I used

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to live in North London when I was there. I'm

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in the East. I'm in East London. So I think we'll

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come to why I ended up here a little bit further

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down the line. Brilliant. Well, speaking of the

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line then, let's start at the very beginning.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. Right. It's interesting,

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actually, because I've taken a lot of time in

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therapy to be able to say some of these things

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out loud. Now, where I was born is very simple.

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I was born in a little town called Crickhowell,

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which is not far from Brecon in Wales. And we

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lived in Brecon. So I thought when I was a child,

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I actually thought until I was 13 years of age

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that I was the youngest of three children. But

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I wasn't. So it's hard when you're a child to

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kind of understand the dynamic of what's going

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on around you. But I can say it out loud now.

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I was, as many third or later siblings, I was

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the invisible child in a narcissistic family.

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I grew up sort of just standing there watching

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all this chaos going on around me. And I described

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my home in the books that I've written. I described

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my home as a menagerie because that's what it

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felt like. You know, I was this little kid that

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was just watching all this chaos going on. And

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on the surface, my mum and dad were just kind

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of like these ordinary people. You know, dad

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was an electronic engineer and my mum was a secretary.

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But there was so... much other stuff going on

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in the background that it's interesting now that

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i'm older and i when i wrote my first book i

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found out a lot about my family and i think when

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you're going to heal you you have to understand

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if you're part of a dysfunctional family you

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need to understand where their trauma comes from

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otherwise you can't heal you can't forgive you

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can't move on You can sit there and you can blame

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anybody and everybody for what goes wrong in

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your life, but that doesn't get you to a place

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of healing. So I have literally, I think you

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might be able to see here, I've got a scar on

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my forehead. And that's one of my very first

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memories. I was three when I went to school.

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I was kind of like a year ahead all the way through

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school. So I was running down the school steps.

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fell and gashed my head on the side of the concrete

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step. And so the reason I've still got a scar

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there is because nobody took me to get it stitched,

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you know, it was just kind of left to do its

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own thing. So my first memory in that school

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was this little wash basin absolutely full of

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blood. because anything on the head, as you're

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going to be aware of, bleeds a lot. If you cut

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anything on your head, you know, it's like World

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War III is going on. And so that's one of my

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first memories. And I literally only have about

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three memories prior to the age of about eight,

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seven or eight. I've learnt along the way that

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my mother had a breakdown and she was hospitalised.

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There were all sorts of things that were going

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on. And it's interesting because in a narcissistic

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family, there is always the golden child, the

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scapegoat, the invisible child, if there's enough

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siblings, you know. So my oldest sibling was

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the golden child. They could do no wrong. They

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literally could do no wrong. No matter how awful

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it was, it was never wrong. And then there was

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another sibling who was, at the time, the family

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scapegoat. And they were always in trouble. And

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the story was at the time that we had to move

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because they were going to be expelled from school.

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That was the story that was spun. But in actual

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fact, I think probably nearer to the truth was

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that my dad's affairs, which that's too much

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in a small town, you know, and moving kind of

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gave us a fresh start in inverted commas. And

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of course, behavior didn't change. So we then

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moved to Devon when I was nine and spent four

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years there. And that's when I that's when my

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real memories really are brighter and brighter

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of how bad things were at home. You know, and

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there was constant rows and constant chaos again.

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But it was more. seated in my memory banks from

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that time and there are things like you know

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i remember my father losing his temper and he

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used to sit in his chair and he'd throw things

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at the wall so this wall Had all these different

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stains on it from where he would throw whatever

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was in his hand at the time, you know. And from

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when I got married later on, one of the favorite

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colors in army quarters was this horrible pale

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green. They call it O'Daniel, you know. And I

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hated that color. I hated that color with a vengeance

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because of what it reminded me of, you know.

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And so there was all these, I think he painted

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over it before we sold the house. But that was

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just a standard thing. And then. There was one

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episode I remember where my dad just completely

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lost it one day and he picked up the coal scuttle,

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threw it all over the floor. So you can imagine

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the mess that that made. And as he did it, he

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literally kicked my mother up the backside out

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of the room. You know, and so I was this little

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kid that was just watching this going on. And

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it's only been recently and sort of through going

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through therapy that. you you sort of start to

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realize how much being the invisible child actually

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did affect you because nobody was ever concerned

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about how anything affected me it was all how

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everything affected everybody else so for example

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when i was 11 my elder sibling and again the

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story goes but you know as well as i do stories

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either add up or they don't And you might swallow

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it whole at the time, but later on you might

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think, hang on a minute, that doesn't quite add

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up. So the story was that my elder sibling had

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actually been coming back on a train and that

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he had fallen asleep and that he'd kind of woken

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up. And instead of pulling into it, he thought

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the train was pulling into the station. but it

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was actually pulling out of the station so it

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was gathering speed and so he jumped off the

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train now all these years later i think well

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even if you've been asleep why would you why

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would you exit a moving moving train you know

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unless you're absolutely paralytic drunk or something

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you know it kind of is a story that as i'm older

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it doesn't make sense what would make sense is

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if he jumped off that train intentionally And

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the result of that, and I remember coming down

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the stairs and I overheard my parents talking

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and I heard them say, no, no, no, we'll tell

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her in the morning. And he was in a coma for

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quite some time and they weren't sure whether,

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and of course being the golden child, it would

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be the end of the world if anything happened

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to this person. And then... He wasn't really,

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I mean, I can laugh about it now, but it wasn't

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very funny at the time. So he wasn't a very nice

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person before this accident. So you can imagine

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he's had a traumatic brain injury. His personality

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just got worse. It was like everything that he

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was before was just exaggerated. And I was on

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the end of a lot of the abuse. So that was...

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kind of what happened with him when i was 11

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and then another sibling took an overdose at

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school and so i have an early memory of walking

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them you know i don't even know where my father

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was i have no idea he certainly wasn't at home

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but i have this memory of my mother telling me

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we have to walk them up and down the lounge and

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the doctor has said we've got to keep them awake

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And we've got to keep putting coffee down them.

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And, you know, bearing in mind, this was back

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in the 1960s. So, you know, whatever it was,

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I think it may have been deemed that they hadn't

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have taken enough to go to hospital. But, you

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know, it could be dangerous if they fell asleep,

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you know, and it was keep them awake until midnight.

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And I'm 11 years old. So just in that one year,

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those two traumatic incidents have happened to

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my siblings. and not one person's actually asked

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me how i'm doing you know and that that's the

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year that you know i'm i'm about to go to grammar

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school and so that's another story on its own

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so blending into the background i kind of learned

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that the easiest way to deal with life was to

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just be quiet and to just like watch it all going

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on but to just make myself as invisible as possible

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and after we moved I think when I look back on

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it now, probably what happened was I poured all

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my energy into schoolwork because I quite enjoyed

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school. School was somewhere where there was

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a structure. You know, in a primary school in

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England, in Devon particularly, back in the 1960s,

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you know, it was quite structured. And there

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I am sort of, you know, getting to the time where

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I'm in my last year of primary school. And I

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go to get my school report and I'm just standing

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there thinking, I just better say nothing here

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because this can't possibly be right. Because

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it said, there were two groups, so it said number

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one, so first, in group one. So I come top of

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the class. And I just thought, I better not say

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anything because I'm going to get into trouble.

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Because our head was our school teacher. I thought

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if he realizes he made a mistake and put me in

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the wrong place he's going to be so upset you

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know and that's what happens when you're the

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invisible child you're always there worried about

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speaking out or you know bringing attention on

00:13:20.419 --> 00:13:25.200
yourself so it turned out actually I had come

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top of the class and you know and so I was very

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unpopular because there was a boy in the class

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who all the way through primary school until

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I'd moved down to Devon he's always been top

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of the class so i not not only did i beat him

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i was a girl i mean that was just horrendous

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um and then there was an opening evening and

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i i remember my parents being asked if they wanted

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me to stay back for a year because i was a year

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ahead all the way through school and the head

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said well it may be relevant to your decision

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but she's actually come third in the county and

00:14:04.889 --> 00:14:09.789
her in the 11 plus so you know you might want

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to consider that so there's these parents who

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really should have been guiding me and they actually

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stand there and say well what do you want to

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do and so i ended up just saying well all my

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friends are in this class i won't know anybody

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if i stay back a year And so, you know, there

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was never any guidance or anybody making parental

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decisions in effect. And then I kind of got to

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secondary school and I'd already been sort of

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bullied for being a redhead, you know, the smallest

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in the school, Welsh accent and all that kind

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of thing. And then when I got to secondary school.

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I was still the smallest in the school. I got

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rid of the Welsh accent, so that was a bit better.

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And then the bullying just continued. And all

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my dad used to say to me was, ignore them, they're

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jealous of you, which was really unhelpful. It

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didn't actually help me in any way, shape or

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form. I get into the third year and I'm starting

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to really struggle at school by then. And I've

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gone from being top of the class to really not

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doing very well at all, but nobody's really noticing

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this. And my middle sibling left home. So the

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family dynamic then shifted. They had been the

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scapegoat because they were always acting out

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and they were always in trouble. And then the

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family dynamic shifted, so I became the scapegoat.

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And suddenly I can't be invisible anymore because

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everything's my fault. And I have this memory

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of being about 12 where the rows were so bad

00:16:09.100 --> 00:16:12.480
that my dad would pack a case. This is kind of

00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:14.559
when I was in the shift from the invisible child

00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.279
into the scapegoat. And I'd be stood at the bottom

00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:20.679
of our driveway and he would throw his cases

00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.019
in the car to go to work. And he'd say, that's

00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:26.600
it, I'm going, I'm not coming home. And this

00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.720
was like a regular occurrence. So you never knew

00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:32.120
whether he was coming back from work that night

00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:33.879
or whether you were ever going to see him again.

00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:40.720
You know, it was pretty horrendous. Long story

00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:46.840
short, one of the main reasons that we moved

00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:49.519
again was because my dad got caught having yet

00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.039
another affair. One of my siblings had walked

00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.039
into a pub that they shouldn't have been in because

00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.659
they were too young to be there anyway and got

00:16:57.659 --> 00:16:59.259
the shock of their life when they think they're

00:16:59.259 --> 00:17:01.620
going for a sneaky drink, you know, underage,

00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:03.960
and actually they walk in and see my dad there

00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.480
with another woman. So, I mean, all hell broke

00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.640
loose. And we ended up moving again. There was

00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.440
no, there was never any thought about what was

00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.299
to give stability, you know, what should be done.

00:17:17.859 --> 00:17:19.920
It was just, okay, well, this is where we're

00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.079
going to go. And so we moved again, then we moved

00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:29.839
to Somerset. You know, there I am, puberty, teenage

00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:34.799
years. I realise now I haven't been diagnosed,

00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:37.240
but I mean, it's pretty obvious that, you know,

00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.640
that. adhd was part of the picture as well so

00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.799
i'm flunking out you know everything's going

00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.519
wrong there's absolutely nobody and it was at

00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.660
that point when we moved that i started to get

00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:53.160
visits into my bedroom in the middle of the night

00:17:53.160 --> 00:18:00.900
from the golden child and you know i was asleep

00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:04.460
so i i kind of i thought initially i was having

00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:07.609
these dreams i actually thought I was imagining

00:18:07.609 --> 00:18:11.250
things. And that went on for four years until

00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:15.950
one night I woke up. I think I must have been

00:18:15.950 --> 00:18:19.710
becoming aware of something going on that wasn't

00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:23.269
a dream. I used to sleep very heavily, but I

00:18:23.269 --> 00:18:26.990
woke up. You know that thing where if a carpet

00:18:26.990 --> 00:18:30.769
and a door, if the door's not high enough over

00:18:30.769 --> 00:18:32.470
the carpet, you can hear the door close over

00:18:32.470 --> 00:18:36.069
the top of the carpet? Yeah. I heard that happening,

00:18:36.130 --> 00:18:39.230
somebody leaving my room at like three o 'clock

00:18:39.230 --> 00:18:43.150
in the morning. And I called out, who's there?

00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:49.349
Obviously no answer. And so I ended up going

00:18:49.349 --> 00:18:54.849
and buying myself a bedside lamp. So when I became

00:18:54.849 --> 00:18:58.130
aware of this happening again, what I did was

00:18:58.130 --> 00:19:02.069
I very quietly reached out and I flicked the

00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:07.680
light on. And he must have realized by then that

00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:12.160
actually he was going to get caught because I

00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.900
was not sleeping so heavily. So he must have

00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:16.819
realized he needed to be a bit more careful.

00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:19.640
And I won't go into what I discovered him doing,

00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:21.880
but he was doing something in my room that he

00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:23.519
shouldn't have been doing. Let's just say that.

00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:26.880
And his pretense was that he'd come to get something

00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:28.960
out of my wardrobe at three o 'clock in the morning

00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:37.349
in the dark. You know, go figure. So the response

00:19:37.349 --> 00:19:42.589
to me trying to actually voice that was, I must

00:19:42.589 --> 00:19:46.710
have imagined it. The response when I actually

00:19:46.710 --> 00:19:50.309
caught him was, well, he was just coming in there

00:19:50.309 --> 00:19:53.369
to get a book. In the dark, in the middle of

00:19:53.369 --> 00:19:55.450
the night, three o 'clock in the morning. OK,

00:19:55.630 --> 00:19:58.369
right. And that is the kind of dysfunction that

00:19:58.369 --> 00:20:02.460
you're dealing with. And I think. This is something

00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:05.539
that when I talk about that side of my life now,

00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:11.859
I always say that the thing that makes what happened

00:20:11.859 --> 00:20:14.799
to you a hundred times worse is somebody pretending

00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:19.500
that it didn't. If somebody denies they did it,

00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:24.200
denies it happened, that makes it 100 times worse.

00:20:27.009 --> 00:20:29.710
Because you've already got your reality screwed

00:20:29.710 --> 00:20:32.450
with because something's going on that shouldn't

00:20:32.450 --> 00:20:35.250
be happening to you anyway. You're already being

00:20:35.250 --> 00:20:38.470
betrayed by people who should care for you. So

00:20:38.470 --> 00:20:41.990
the minute they turn around and they say, you're

00:20:41.990 --> 00:20:45.470
imagining it, that didn't happen. That just multiplies

00:20:45.470 --> 00:20:48.609
it by about 100. And I've spoken to different

00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:50.809
people over the years and they kind of all have

00:20:50.809 --> 00:20:53.579
the same experience with that one. You know,

00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:55.740
it's hard enough dealing with any of these things

00:20:55.740 --> 00:20:59.500
as they are because they are a huge betrayal.

00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:03.740
But when somebody is pretending they didn't do

00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:06.900
it. And here's the thing, you know, I know a

00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:10.500
guy that's a forensic psychiatrist. And so his

00:21:10.500 --> 00:21:12.859
job literally is to decide on whether you're

00:21:12.859 --> 00:21:16.839
mad, bad or both. And he, you know, we've had.

00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:19.220
conversations about this and he says you know

00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:21.440
you wouldn't believe some of the excuses that

00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:28.640
these perpetrators come up with to absolve themselves

00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:36.259
from actually committing a crime they will do

00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:43.160
anything but say yeah hands up i did it so that

00:21:43.849 --> 00:21:46.869
that was a pretty horrendous time in my life

00:21:46.869 --> 00:21:51.309
and then um after one sort of failed attempt

00:21:51.309 --> 00:21:53.930
that i've written about in my first book but

00:21:53.930 --> 00:21:55.829
you know i'm not going to go into here because

00:21:55.829 --> 00:21:58.670
it's it is what it is but i did try and get away

00:21:58.670 --> 00:22:05.890
once and then i got a job and there was a guy

00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:10.549
at work and he said um we need a new flatmate

00:22:10.549 --> 00:22:16.029
and i said we he said well me we were three bedroom

00:22:16.029 --> 00:22:19.210
flat in town you know we're looking for a new

00:22:19.210 --> 00:22:24.309
flat maybe somebody's left and immediately i

00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:27.890
i just said how much is the rent and i was i

00:22:27.890 --> 00:22:31.049
was like can you help me move and so literally

00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:35.690
i planned it all quietly and then he came and

00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:38.930
we packed all my clothes into black bin liners

00:22:38.930 --> 00:22:41.420
and took them on the bus which was like once

00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:43.400
an hour because we lived in a village you know

00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:47.500
and um and i left a note on the kitchen table

00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:53.299
and i said i've left i'll be in touch and that

00:22:53.299 --> 00:23:01.140
was how i left home what age was this 17. i was

00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:09.049
17. and then i moved I mean, I shared a flat

00:23:09.049 --> 00:23:12.710
with two guys. I mean, they didn't even know

00:23:12.710 --> 00:23:19.190
what housework was, you know. And the main thing

00:23:19.190 --> 00:23:21.490
was as well is they liked to party. So, you know,

00:23:21.509 --> 00:23:23.289
you'd be dragged out of bed at 11 o 'clock at

00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:24.750
night because they'd have friends coming round.

00:23:26.309 --> 00:23:29.970
So I stayed there a while. And then somebody

00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:32.950
I worked with, again, I'd moved jobs and somebody

00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:35.009
I worked with, she said, oh, my housemate's moving.

00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:37.880
She said, you know, would you be interested?

00:23:38.140 --> 00:23:40.180
And again, how much is the rent? Where is it?

00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:43.339
Most importantly, I would have my own lounge,

00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:47.099
my own kitchen, my own bedroom. And the only

00:23:47.099 --> 00:23:49.039
thing that I would share would be the bathroom.

00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:52.039
I was like, great, I'm there. And that's where

00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:56.680
I was living when I met my husband. So talk to

00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:06.630
me about Gary then. Oh, where do I start? I have

00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:09.269
told this story before and I think it's quite

00:24:09.269 --> 00:24:13.049
funny actually, you know, that I used to work

00:24:13.049 --> 00:24:16.710
for the MOD in a full -time role. So I worked

00:24:16.710 --> 00:24:21.750
in a pay office. I just did data input, a very

00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:25.569
boring job. But to make up some extra money,

00:24:25.670 --> 00:24:28.269
because it wasn't easy, you know, paying my own

00:24:28.269 --> 00:24:30.910
way in the world, and to make some extra money,

00:24:31.069 --> 00:24:37.720
I... worked in what I call a little old man's

00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.400
pub around the corner from where I lived, which

00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.579
is perfect because I could literally just walk

00:24:44.579 --> 00:24:46.740
around the corner, go and do a few hours and

00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.940
come home. And the only time it was busy is if

00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:53.960
they had like a disco in the Skittle Alley. And

00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:59.240
one night, I'm there on a Monday night, bored

00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.259
out my brain, and these two young guys walk in,

00:25:02.299 --> 00:25:06.369
which was a bit unusual. So he comes up. The

00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:08.369
first thing he ever said to me was two pints

00:25:08.369 --> 00:25:10.049
of lager and lime love and one for yourself.

00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:17.289
So long story short, they kind of asked me if

00:25:17.289 --> 00:25:20.009
I'd join them for a drink. And I fancied his

00:25:20.009 --> 00:25:24.509
friend because Gary was very handsome. I'm not

00:25:24.509 --> 00:25:26.250
going to deny he was very handsome. He just wasn't

00:25:26.250 --> 00:25:32.210
my type. So I suppose the line is, oh, can I

00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:34.349
finish early tonight? I thought, OK, this looks

00:25:34.349 --> 00:25:39.869
like it could be a laugh, you know. His friend

00:25:39.869 --> 00:25:43.089
was really off with me. And I thought, OK, whatever.

00:25:43.269 --> 00:25:47.289
But Gary had me cracked up. And if you ask most

00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:49.730
women, what do you find the most attractive thing

00:25:49.730 --> 00:25:52.990
in a man, they'll say, if he can make me laugh.

00:25:53.690 --> 00:25:57.069
You know, I find the sense of humour attractive.

00:25:57.869 --> 00:26:01.920
And Gary was a character. He really was. I mean,

00:26:01.940 --> 00:26:04.720
you know, it's not many people that you'll meet

00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.700
that virtually nobody dislikes them. You know,

00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:09.940
I've actually never met anyone that didn't like

00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:17.559
him. So, unbeknownst to me, him and his best

00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.200
friend, and it was Gary's 19th birthday that

00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.480
night, and him and his best friend had a deal.

00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:29.240
If they fancied the same girl, they would toss

00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:33.220
a coin. And whoever won the toss of the coin

00:26:33.220 --> 00:26:36.539
could chat her up. And so that they would never

00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:40.839
fall out over a girl. Even if she wasn't interested,

00:26:41.059 --> 00:26:44.519
the one that had lost was not allowed to smooth

00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:52.359
in. That was their deal. So when he first, after

00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:54.180
we got married and he first introduced me to

00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:56.640
people, they'd say, oh, so how did you two meet?

00:26:57.650 --> 00:27:00.049
And he'd say, I want her on the toss of a coin.

00:27:01.029 --> 00:27:03.009
And then people would look to me and say, well,

00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:04.670
come on then, how did you really meet? And I

00:27:04.670 --> 00:27:07.730
say, well, he won me on the toss of a coin. And

00:27:07.730 --> 00:27:10.130
they most of the time go off shaking their heads

00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:12.190
like, well, this is ridiculous, you know, whatever.

00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:17.230
But yeah, so that's how we met. You know, it

00:27:17.230 --> 00:27:20.009
was his 19th birthday and they'd asked sort of

00:27:20.009 --> 00:27:21.970
where they could go. And I sort of said, well,

00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:24.789
there's going to be nowhere. It's a school night.

00:27:25.339 --> 00:27:27.460
You know, I told them a couple of pubs in town,

00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:29.079
but of course, because he fancied me, he didn't

00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:32.059
want to go anywhere. And, you know, I look back

00:27:32.059 --> 00:27:34.799
on it now and you would never do something like

00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.799
that in this day and age. But I don't know what

00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.160
it was. Something about him from day one, I just

00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.619
felt safe. So I invited them back to my place,

00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:49.000
got a few beers. And this is the funniest bit

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:54.049
of the story, because... We'd been there a little

00:27:54.049 --> 00:28:00.710
while. His friend was driving. And Gary says

00:28:00.710 --> 00:28:02.269
to me, oh, can I use your loo? I said, yeah,

00:28:02.269 --> 00:28:05.769
of course you can. So his mate pops up at the

00:28:05.769 --> 00:28:08.150
same time. Oh, yeah, can I? And I said, well,

00:28:08.170 --> 00:28:09.490
there's one down. He says, there's one up. He

00:28:09.490 --> 00:28:12.190
says, off you go sort of thing. And when Gary

00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:15.569
came back, we sat there. After a couple of minutes,

00:28:15.650 --> 00:28:18.710
I said, is your friend all right? And he gave

00:28:18.710 --> 00:28:20.789
me this really cheeky grin. And he said, yeah,

00:28:20.789 --> 00:28:26.089
he's gone home. And I just looked at him. We

00:28:26.089 --> 00:28:29.210
all know where he hoped that was going. And I

00:28:29.210 --> 00:28:31.710
sat there and I said to him, so how are you getting

00:28:31.710 --> 00:28:34.950
home? And he again gave me this cheeky grin and

00:28:34.950 --> 00:28:37.789
said, well, I was kind of hoping I wasn't. And

00:28:37.789 --> 00:28:41.009
I said, well, you've got two choices. I said,

00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:43.589
there's a mattress in the hallway. I can make

00:28:43.589 --> 00:28:46.549
up a bed in the lounge for you. Or you can walk

00:28:46.549 --> 00:28:50.480
home and take your choice. And home was like

00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:56.619
his parents' house, 10 miles away. And I said,

00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:59.099
but either way, my bedroom door will be locked

00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:03.160
if you're going to stay, so it's up to you. And

00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:05.019
he just looked at me and went, no, it's all right,

00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:08.920
I'll walk home. And of course, I didn't realise

00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.619
at the time. I worked with the pay corps. I mean,

00:29:11.660 --> 00:29:14.420
you can imagine. I didn't realise how fit paratroopers

00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:18.750
were. You know, 10 miles after a couple of beers,

00:29:18.849 --> 00:29:21.049
there's nothing to him. So off he tootled. But

00:29:21.049 --> 00:29:24.490
on the doorstep, as he was leaving, he swung

00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:29.109
around and he said to me, they were on R &R from

00:29:29.109 --> 00:29:31.170
Northern Ireland. So he swung around and he said

00:29:31.170 --> 00:29:33.569
to me, when I get back from Northern Ireland,

00:29:33.630 --> 00:29:37.569
will you be my girlfriend? And I just looked

00:29:37.569 --> 00:29:42.529
at him and went, okay. And it really was. So,

00:29:42.529 --> 00:29:45.750
you know, there was a... peck on the cheek there

00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:48.289
was no real it was just off he went into the

00:29:48.289 --> 00:29:52.269
sunset and of course back in those days i didn't

00:29:52.269 --> 00:29:56.509
have a landline i had no idea where all i knew

00:29:56.509 --> 00:29:58.029
was he was in northern ireland i didn't know

00:29:58.029 --> 00:30:03.089
where that was it and i didn't hear from him

00:30:03.089 --> 00:30:05.809
for six weeks and he rocked up on my doorstep

00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:10.450
at one o 'clock in the morning and said i've

00:30:10.450 --> 00:30:12.089
been everywhere looking for you tonight you don't

00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:14.670
work at the pub anymore and i've been you know

00:30:14.670 --> 00:30:16.450
here there and everywhere trying to find you

00:30:16.450 --> 00:30:21.269
and i said well i was out i'm here now didn't

00:30:21.269 --> 00:30:22.990
even invite him in and he said will you go out

00:30:22.990 --> 00:30:25.390
with me tomorrow night i said okay what time

00:30:25.390 --> 00:30:28.930
and off he went and that was our first date the

00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:33.529
following night which uh paratroop was he part

00:30:33.529 --> 00:30:40.490
of he was with the second battalion okay so what

00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:43.900
Going back to his service then, what would he

00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:46.240
talk about as far as experiences in Northern

00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:51.180
Ireland? I've just actually remembered one thing

00:30:51.180 --> 00:30:54.380
that he told me. He said it broke his heart.

00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.500
Gary had a younger sister who was much younger

00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:07.500
than him. He said to me when they were on patrols

00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:12.019
one day, he saw this little girl. who reminded

00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:14.259
him of his sister. She was very pretty, blonde,

00:31:14.539 --> 00:31:18.059
you know. He went up and said hello to her because

00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:22.299
she reminded him of his sister. And she just

00:31:22.299 --> 00:31:24.660
looked at him and said, he's about five years

00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:26.839
old, and said, fuck off, you British soldier.

00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:30.720
This is like a five -year -old. And he said,

00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.960
what was so upsetting was that, you know, such

00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.380
foul language was coming out of this little kid

00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:41.940
that looked like an angel. But other than that,

00:31:42.019 --> 00:31:44.420
he didn't really, I mean, I learned after we

00:31:44.420 --> 00:31:46.500
got married, we used to play tricks on each other

00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:49.119
a lot. And there was one time that I was hiding

00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.559
and I jumped out on him and he literally pulled

00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:54.359
his fist back to deck me. Just a reaction. I

00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:56.279
mean, he stopped himself before anything happened.

00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:02.400
Very, very fast. And I did see him once the car

00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.680
backfired, you know, just hit the deck. So there

00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:07.900
were reactions there, but he didn't talk, no,

00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:11.279
he didn't talk about it. It just, I've had people

00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:15.019
on, you know, that were young Irish and in Belfast

00:32:15.019 --> 00:32:17.000
at the time I've had, you know, Paris, I've had

00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.559
SAS, I've had all these different people on.

00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:22.380
And it's just such a, an awful situation, you

00:32:22.380 --> 00:32:24.559
know, that we know the backstories of, you know,

00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:27.619
of how a lot of this led to that point, but to

00:32:27.619 --> 00:32:30.259
put these young men, you know, on both sides

00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:32.559
in these positions. And then obviously when people

00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:34.740
start getting killed, it just perpetuates that,

00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:37.569
perpetuates that hate. And then you have, as

00:32:37.569 --> 00:32:40.609
you allude to, you've got children on both sides

00:32:40.609 --> 00:32:44.490
having this completely blinkered view of what

00:32:44.490 --> 00:32:46.470
this other group of people should be doing. And

00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:49.490
then in Ireland itself, you've got people of

00:32:49.490 --> 00:32:51.269
the same religion killing each other. I mean,

00:32:51.309 --> 00:32:53.769
it's just, I think there's so much to be learned

00:32:53.769 --> 00:32:57.650
from that conflict. And I personally think that

00:32:57.650 --> 00:32:59.509
Ireland should be back to Ireland again. I just

00:32:59.509 --> 00:33:02.529
don't understand why that still even exists anymore.

00:33:03.529 --> 00:33:05.849
But yeah, I mean, there's so many lessons in

00:33:05.849 --> 00:33:08.369
history. I think Northern Ireland is a glaring

00:33:08.369 --> 00:33:10.890
one, which ironically now, Ireland is being such

00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:13.250
a big voice for what's going on in Gaza, and

00:33:13.250 --> 00:33:19.170
rightly so. Yeah, and I mean, the only time,

00:33:19.269 --> 00:33:21.289
I mean, I was married for nearly five years.

00:33:22.609 --> 00:33:25.650
And the only time that I actually ever heard

00:33:25.650 --> 00:33:28.970
or saw my husband completely out of control was

00:33:28.970 --> 00:33:33.109
during his second tour of Ireland. and it was

00:33:33.109 --> 00:33:36.329
after warren point happened and i stayed in england

00:33:36.329 --> 00:33:40.809
i i actually was in a quarter where there was

00:33:40.809 --> 00:33:43.230
no phone so my neighbor came flying through the

00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:44.849
door and just said go and get the phone and you

00:33:44.849 --> 00:33:46.490
never know what's going to be on the end of it

00:33:46.490 --> 00:33:51.029
and gary was completely incoherent you know it

00:33:51.029 --> 00:33:54.809
was the bastards and it was just it took like

00:33:54.809 --> 00:33:56.970
a couple of minutes for me to understand that

00:33:56.970 --> 00:33:58.750
a bomb had gone off and there'd been a lot of

00:33:58.750 --> 00:34:02.079
death and and how horrendous it actually was.

00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:07.980
He was one of the most upbeat people you'd ever

00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:11.980
meet. He was the one that could always cheer

00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:15.519
everybody up. If you ask anybody about his personality,

00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.659
he was always the one that could cheer anybody

00:34:17.659 --> 00:34:21.619
up and he was always very, very upbeat as a person.

00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:26.539
But the day that Warren Point happened, he was

00:34:26.539 --> 00:34:29.260
completely out of control. I've never heard so

00:34:29.260 --> 00:34:34.239
much emotion and lack of control in what he was

00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:39.639
saying and in his voice. And it was hard because

00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:43.840
I was the other side of the water. What you want

00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.500
to do is put your arms around somebody. What

00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:49.179
you want to do is hold them because that's all

00:34:49.179 --> 00:34:52.360
you can do. You can't change what's just happened.

00:34:55.920 --> 00:35:00.170
And you're not there. And that's the nature of

00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:07.130
them being on operations, you know. So, yeah,

00:35:07.269 --> 00:35:10.449
in the five years we were married, you know,

00:35:10.489 --> 00:35:12.809
I met him when he was on R &R for one tour of

00:35:12.809 --> 00:35:15.130
Ireland. And then later we did another 18 -month

00:35:15.130 --> 00:35:17.670
tour. And second to Goose Green, that was the

00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:22.780
biggest loss of paratroopers. that Tupac had.

00:35:23.139 --> 00:35:25.760
And I think that's why Goose Green hit a lot

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.380
of Tupac so hard, because they had such a big

00:35:28.380 --> 00:35:32.960
hit in 1979 with Warren Point. And then the Falklands

00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.719
was only three years later. Walk me through that

00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.360
then. So, you know, talk to me about how he even

00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.519
found himself in a position to be deployed. And

00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.539
then let's talk about the declaration of war

00:35:46.539 --> 00:35:48.739
through your eyes, and then we'll get to Goose

00:35:48.739 --> 00:35:53.730
Green. I remember Gary coming home and just saying,

00:35:53.750 --> 00:35:59.190
we're going to war. And at that point, most people

00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:01.070
hadn't even got a clue where the Falklands were.

00:36:01.409 --> 00:36:03.510
I mean, most of the guys thought it was somewhere

00:36:03.510 --> 00:36:15.789
off Scotland, you know. And they were kind of

00:36:15.789 --> 00:36:18.829
buzzing. I think for a lot of the guys, if you

00:36:18.829 --> 00:36:21.030
were to speak to a lot of the two para -guys

00:36:21.030 --> 00:36:24.969
back from that time, when you're in Northern

00:36:24.969 --> 00:36:30.250
Ireland, you were fighting an unseen enemy. So

00:36:30.250 --> 00:36:33.570
when you were in, for example, Warren Point was

00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:39.650
a remote -controlled bomb. The enemy's unseen.

00:36:40.010 --> 00:36:41.550
You never know where it's going to hit. You never

00:36:41.550 --> 00:36:44.519
know where it is. so the opportunity for them

00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:48.639
to actually go into a proper war situation for

00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:52.119
a lot of the guys that were of his age younger

00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:56.340
and slightly older first time they had any opportunity

00:36:56.340 --> 00:36:59.619
to go and do what they've been trained to do

00:36:59.619 --> 00:37:03.039
and actually have a fair fight as in you know

00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:04.940
where the enemy is you know what you're going

00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:07.800
to do and and this is what soldiering is about

00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.739
and he couldn't wait i mean i wanted to throttle

00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:13.489
him You know, he was so excited, he couldn't

00:37:13.489 --> 00:37:18.849
wait to go. But it's what you sign up for. When

00:37:18.849 --> 00:37:21.090
you marry somebody in the military, you just

00:37:21.090 --> 00:37:24.250
don't know if or when or ever there's going to

00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:27.690
be a war anyway. And it was, I think the Falklands

00:37:27.690 --> 00:37:32.469
was very, well, it wasn't to the people in the

00:37:32.469 --> 00:37:35.409
background, but, you know, to us it was all very

00:37:35.409 --> 00:37:37.510
unexpected and it just sort of seemed to come

00:37:37.510 --> 00:37:41.539
out of nowhere. And then there was this flurry

00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:44.519
of activity because it was only invaded on the

00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:50.260
2nd of April and they were gone. I mean, the

00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:53.420
three para were the spearhead battalion. So Gary

00:37:53.420 --> 00:37:56.019
shouldn't have gone. The two para weren't supposed

00:37:56.019 --> 00:37:58.880
to go, but Colonel H decided he wanted to go

00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:00.960
and he wanted his boys to go and he got his own

00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:04.280
way because he was very good at that. So they

00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:08.519
all wanted to go. But because 3 Para was the

00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:10.500
spearhead battalion, they were kind of gone on

00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:12.440
the 9th of April. I mean, everything was turned

00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:15.179
around so fast. If you imagine, it's invaded

00:38:15.179 --> 00:38:18.199
on the 2nd and by the 9th, they've refitted the

00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:22.860
Canberra and they've got a whole battalion of

00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:25.659
paratroopers on there and Marines and whoever

00:38:25.659 --> 00:38:28.159
else. And, you know, all these troops are off

00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:32.940
to retake these islands within a week. So everything

00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:38.309
happened very, very fast. And so, I mean, two

00:38:38.309 --> 00:38:41.909
para went down on this roll -on, roll -off ferry.

00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:43.769
You know, they went on the MV Norland, so they

00:38:43.769 --> 00:38:46.309
didn't have quite such a luxury, you know, ride.

00:38:46.429 --> 00:38:48.610
But, you know, the camaraderie and everything,

00:38:48.809 --> 00:38:52.030
it was, I think it's a time, we call it the class

00:38:52.030 --> 00:38:54.150
of 82, and I think it's a time that everybody

00:38:54.150 --> 00:38:59.230
from that era, and there's never going to be

00:38:59.230 --> 00:39:04.670
another war like it. you know it was the last

00:39:04.670 --> 00:39:07.849
analog war for it was it's kind of unique in

00:39:07.849 --> 00:39:14.630
its its own right but before they left they kind

00:39:14.630 --> 00:39:18.010
of went to go and then the ship wasn't ready

00:39:18.010 --> 00:39:22.769
and so he went literally with phil kitt said

00:39:22.769 --> 00:39:26.570
goodbye and then came home again so it was the

00:39:26.570 --> 00:39:29.670
third day that finally it's like you really going

00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:38.079
today um and Because of my family situation and

00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:39.920
him knowing that I wouldn't have any support,

00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:43.639
he was adamant I wasn't going. He said, you're

00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:46.500
not coming to see me off. We say our goodbye

00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:50.239
at home because I cannot have my last vision

00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:53.119
of you. There's interesting words, you know,

00:39:53.139 --> 00:39:56.420
because it was his last vision of me. I can't

00:39:56.420 --> 00:39:59.920
have my last vision of you in tears on a dockside.

00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.239
And I know you've got to go home on your own.

00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:08.820
I'm not doing that. So we said our goodbye at

00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:16.420
home. And to this day, that's still gut -wrenching.

00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:24.079
We kind of had a pact that we never said goodbye.

00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:30.500
We said, Tala, I'll see you later. And he said

00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:36.599
goodbye that day. and i went back to bed and

00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.340
saw myself back to sleep again you know because

00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:46.760
he left very early morning and nobody could tell

00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:49.920
me you know i worked with people who kept saying

00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:55.679
why are you so stressed out and i'd be sitting

00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:03.599
there thinking well if your husband right we're

00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:06.820
back You know, I'd be sitting there thinking

00:41:06.820 --> 00:41:09.119
to myself, well, if your husband was going, you

00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:11.739
know, gone to war, these were always people their

00:41:11.739 --> 00:41:16.400
husbands weren't, you know, as part of that task

00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:22.139
force. You know exactly why I've got so much

00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:25.340
anxiety about it. But nobody could tell me, you

00:41:25.340 --> 00:41:27.519
know, even though they hadn't landed and it took

00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:29.500
four weeks to get there, nobody could tell me

00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:33.710
he was coming back. I just knew. And there is

00:41:33.710 --> 00:41:37.889
actually nothing that prepares you for that knock

00:41:37.889 --> 00:41:43.590
on the door. I didn't really have much knowledge

00:41:43.590 --> 00:41:46.489
of that because the letters that I got were mainly

00:41:46.489 --> 00:41:50.869
from the ship. And they were censored as to what

00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:54.610
they could say anyway. So I would get letters.

00:41:54.690 --> 00:41:58.809
And for Gary, because Gary was a huge Jacques

00:41:58.809 --> 00:42:02.949
Cousteau fan. So for Gary, being at sea. and

00:42:02.949 --> 00:42:05.909
seeing everything he was like in his element

00:42:05.909 --> 00:42:08.250
you know and he was he would write oh i saw flying

00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:13.929
fish today and dolphins and you know so i think

00:42:13.929 --> 00:42:18.010
in the main he tried to keep things upbeat but

00:42:18.010 --> 00:42:20.349
also they they were sensitive to what they could

00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:23.789
say about where they were anyway so i didn't

00:42:23.789 --> 00:42:26.329
really have any knowledge i mean i i was given

00:42:26.329 --> 00:42:30.349
some photos after the event of him on sussex

00:42:30.349 --> 00:42:37.349
mountain And I have sat down and I've, because

00:42:37.349 --> 00:42:41.550
there's been so many, I mean, it's really, I

00:42:41.550 --> 00:42:43.809
don't think people when they're telling war stories

00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:46.190
ever think about what it's like for the families.

00:42:48.369 --> 00:42:50.710
And there've been so many things I've been told

00:42:50.710 --> 00:42:53.090
over the years. You know, one guy even said to

00:42:53.090 --> 00:42:56.190
me that Gary's last words, bearing in mind I'd

00:42:56.190 --> 00:42:59.750
been told he was killed instantaneously. So it's

00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:02.010
not like he was lingering for an hour, you know,

00:43:02.010 --> 00:43:05.130
to have a conversation, you know. One guy, I

00:43:05.130 --> 00:43:06.829
know he was only trying to make me feel better,

00:43:06.889 --> 00:43:11.030
but he said to me that I was one of the last,

00:43:11.190 --> 00:43:13.730
like my name was one of the last things he said.

00:43:15.150 --> 00:43:19.469
And in my head I'm thinking, the last thing that

00:43:19.469 --> 00:43:21.570
would have been on my husband's mind when he

00:43:21.570 --> 00:43:24.469
was in the middle of a battle would be me. Not

00:43:24.469 --> 00:43:26.230
because he didn't love me, but because he'd been

00:43:26.230 --> 00:43:31.599
doing his job, you know. Yeah, you kind of know.

00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:34.699
You just think there's no way that's, even if

00:43:34.699 --> 00:43:36.340
he had a butt of any words, that that would have

00:43:36.340 --> 00:43:39.219
been any of them, you know? But then there's

00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:43.300
these other war stories that people tell. And

00:43:43.300 --> 00:43:49.719
there's certain times of the year now, and I'll

00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.099
talk a bit more about it later, but, you know,

00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:59.829
I do live with complex PTSD. I'm very protective

00:43:59.829 --> 00:44:02.949
of my mental health these days. I live on a pretty

00:44:02.949 --> 00:44:05.389
even keel most of the time now, you know, but

00:44:05.389 --> 00:44:09.650
there are times of the year that I just don't

00:44:09.650 --> 00:44:12.429
go on social media unless it's Instagram, because

00:44:12.429 --> 00:44:14.710
that's different, you know, and I might put my

00:44:14.710 --> 00:44:18.510
fitness stuff on Instagram or whatever. But that

00:44:18.510 --> 00:44:21.809
time of year and some of the things that you

00:44:21.809 --> 00:44:26.090
read and see, they're just horrendous and it's

00:44:26.090 --> 00:44:35.320
relentless. So I don't think many of the guys

00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:37.539
when they're telling war stories ever think about

00:44:37.539 --> 00:44:40.760
the effect that that actually has on families

00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:44.639
when they've got to read it. For the guys, I'm

00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:48.400
very proud that he was a part of a task force

00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:52.300
that did such an incredible job. And I think

00:44:52.300 --> 00:44:59.739
we've all got to die at some point. The man that

00:44:59.739 --> 00:45:02.179
I knew might have only been 24 when he died,

00:45:02.300 --> 00:45:04.639
but my God, he crammed a lot into those years.

00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:08.800
He'd done more at the age of 24 than a lot of

00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:11.559
people have done by the time they're 74 or 84.

00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:21.340
I took a long time to come to terms with what

00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:23.579
had happened because ultimately, and I can talk

00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:28.659
about it openly now. And I wrote about my emotional

00:45:28.659 --> 00:45:30.900
journey in my second book, The Falcon's Widow,

00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:35.239
which my grief process was really interrupted

00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:42.039
by a few things. But when we got married, when

00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:47.460
we met, he was a Methodist and I was agnostic

00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:50.019
at the time. I didn't quite know what I believed

00:45:50.019 --> 00:45:55.019
in. And I'm a pacifist and he was a soldier.

00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:59.119
So at the grand old age of 19, we decided that

00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:01.139
we would never talk about politics and never

00:46:01.139 --> 00:46:03.059
talk about religion and respect each other's

00:46:03.059 --> 00:46:08.460
differences. Which was incredibly mature. Can't

00:46:08.460 --> 00:46:10.260
say we were as mature in everything, but we certainly

00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:14.360
were in that. And we never did. But deep down

00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:18.400
in my heart, I had a lot of work to do around

00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.880
that eventually because he got killed doing the

00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:28.099
one thing I don't believe in. But I signed up

00:46:28.099 --> 00:46:30.900
for it. I married him when he was, it wasn't

00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:32.639
like he went and joined the army after we met.

00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:37.139
I signed up for being married to somebody who

00:46:37.139 --> 00:46:42.300
was doing that for a living. You know, so there

00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:45.820
was a lot of ambivalence for me around that.

00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:50.780
So, and he was killed on Goose Green, have I

00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:56.099
got that right? Yeah. So back to kind of, you

00:46:56.099 --> 00:46:58.739
know, through your lens again now, how did you

00:46:58.739 --> 00:47:01.179
originally hear and this kind of walk through

00:47:01.179 --> 00:47:09.699
your initial grief journey? So he died on the

00:47:09.699 --> 00:47:16.260
Friday. And on the Saturday afternoon, I was

00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:19.800
sat outside and I always remember it was a baking

00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.559
hot day. It's a beautiful, beautiful day. And

00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.940
one of the wives, it was like a little park area

00:47:24.940 --> 00:47:28.420
outside the flats. And one of the wives came

00:47:28.420 --> 00:47:31.820
out of her army quarter hysterically screaming,

00:47:32.460 --> 00:47:34.500
they're dead, they're dead, they're all dead.

00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:42.179
And the irony of this is I went over and calmed

00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:44.300
her down. And I said, what do you mean they're

00:47:44.300 --> 00:47:48.280
all dead? And you've got this stinking feeling

00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:56.960
in the pit of your stomach. And she was a sergeant's

00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:58.760
wife and she'd heard from one of the officers'

00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.300
wives that H had been killed. The news had come

00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:06.619
through sun rays down. So the logical thought

00:48:06.619 --> 00:48:09.460
process was, which was, you know, a fair logical

00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:16.940
thought process, that if the CO is dead, who's

00:48:16.940 --> 00:48:20.059
not supposed to be in the front line? Then the

00:48:20.059 --> 00:48:22.179
whole battalion has gone down, bearing in mind

00:48:22.179 --> 00:48:25.019
they're at war. So we don't know how many casualties

00:48:25.019 --> 00:48:28.199
they're going to be or how big the battle is.

00:48:30.860 --> 00:48:35.519
And I calmed her down and said, look, you know,

00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:38.059
you don't know that. You just have to wait for

00:48:38.059 --> 00:48:45.780
news. And then I went and sat down. And the person

00:48:45.780 --> 00:48:49.219
who was with me. said it'll be okay and i said

00:48:49.219 --> 00:48:52.340
you don't understand it's not okay and i burst

00:48:52.340 --> 00:48:55.300
into tears and he'd already been dead over 24

00:48:55.300 --> 00:49:06.219
hours so the following morning i'd gone to the

00:49:06.219 --> 00:49:08.860
loo and i got back into bed and i had my dressing

00:49:08.860 --> 00:49:12.019
gown on and i just couldn't get warm i was just

00:49:12.019 --> 00:49:14.099
shivering in a baking hot day and i was just

00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:18.590
shivering And the doorbell went. Well, nobody

00:49:18.590 --> 00:49:21.130
rings your doorbell at 8 o 'clock on a Sunday

00:49:21.130 --> 00:49:28.590
morning. And I remember through this process

00:49:28.590 --> 00:49:32.309
of lying there thinking, if I just lie here quietly,

00:49:32.570 --> 00:49:36.809
they'll go away. Because you don't want to hear

00:49:36.809 --> 00:49:43.710
it. And then the next thought that came into

00:49:43.710 --> 00:49:46.190
my head was, Well, that's a bit stupid because

00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:47.429
they're only going to come back and they're going

00:49:47.429 --> 00:49:49.289
to know you're in anyway. Where else are you

00:49:49.289 --> 00:49:54.510
going to be on a Sunday morning, you know? And

00:49:54.510 --> 00:50:01.030
I got up and I answered the door. And again,

00:50:01.210 --> 00:50:03.510
I've written about this and I've spoken about

00:50:03.510 --> 00:50:07.869
it before, but I'd had this dream for the last

00:50:07.869 --> 00:50:14.269
two or three years before he died. And in this

00:50:14.269 --> 00:50:18.989
dream, all I could see, you know, as we're talking

00:50:18.989 --> 00:50:21.349
now, we can see each other and we can see the

00:50:21.349 --> 00:50:23.309
background. So I can see your background, you

00:50:23.309 --> 00:50:25.949
can see mine. So in a normal dream, you can see

00:50:25.949 --> 00:50:30.050
backgrounds. And in this dream, I couldn't see

00:50:30.050 --> 00:50:32.789
any background. It's just like a tunnel. It was

00:50:32.789 --> 00:50:35.730
really weird. But there would just be an officer

00:50:35.730 --> 00:50:40.530
at the door giving me this news. And sometimes

00:50:40.530 --> 00:50:43.480
he would be in uniform. And that's how I knew,

00:50:43.539 --> 00:50:45.019
you know, the pips on the shoulder. I knew it

00:50:45.019 --> 00:50:47.480
was an officer. And other times he would be in

00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:51.460
civilian clothes. And this recurrent dream happened

00:50:51.460 --> 00:50:54.539
for a couple of years. And in the five years

00:50:54.539 --> 00:50:57.219
I was married, it was the only thing I couldn't

00:50:57.219 --> 00:51:03.559
tell my husband. You know, we had that kind of

00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:07.420
marriage where there's nothing. I can still surprise

00:51:07.420 --> 00:51:11.190
people that knew him back in the day. with things

00:51:11.190 --> 00:51:13.469
that they wouldn't know about him I mean I had

00:51:13.469 --> 00:51:15.289
a conversation with his best friend from school

00:51:15.289 --> 00:51:19.610
not long ago and I said did he never tell you

00:51:19.610 --> 00:51:24.829
that and he said no you know so there was nothing

00:51:24.829 --> 00:51:27.369
we couldn't talk about but I couldn't tell him

00:51:27.369 --> 00:51:34.730
that and so I opened the door and of course they

00:51:34.730 --> 00:51:36.369
don't want to tell you on the doorstep they want

00:51:36.369 --> 00:51:40.949
to come in and And I remember literally backing

00:51:40.949 --> 00:51:44.630
up along the hallway and I just about got into

00:51:44.630 --> 00:51:51.570
the lounge when they broke the news. And the

00:51:51.570 --> 00:51:58.369
rest. And the irony of that whole situation the

00:51:58.369 --> 00:52:03.190
day before was the person they went to get initially

00:52:03.190 --> 00:52:06.980
was... The woman who I'd been calming down the

00:52:06.980 --> 00:52:13.900
day before and her husband was fine. And I think

00:52:13.900 --> 00:52:24.059
that was the worst day of my life. I don't think

00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:31.619
there's ever a time that that can't be painful.

00:52:35.530 --> 00:52:40.670
Because aside from my feelings, aside from losing

00:52:40.670 --> 00:52:46.309
somebody that you love, there is somebody's life

00:52:46.309 --> 00:52:50.369
just cut short. You know, he's 24 years old,

00:52:50.389 --> 00:52:52.150
he's got everything in front of him, and then

00:52:52.150 --> 00:53:02.300
suddenly it's gone. That said... I don't think

00:53:02.300 --> 00:53:04.519
Gary would have coped very well if he'd been

00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:11.079
badly injured. You know, it was just fate. It

00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:15.099
happened the way it did. But he wasn't the kind

00:53:15.099 --> 00:53:16.760
of person that, you know, you know that thing

00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:18.760
where we look at quality of life. What is your

00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:23.019
quality of life? And for some people, their quality

00:53:23.019 --> 00:53:26.099
of life, they don't have to have much going on

00:53:26.099 --> 00:53:28.940
in their life to be just getting by. he wasn't

00:53:28.940 --> 00:53:32.440
one of those people you know he was a footballer

00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:35.960
very good footballer you know he he was always

00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:43.079
very active very he was a doer in life so the

00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:46.639
person that i knew would have been much better

00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:48.639
going out in a blazer glory than they would have

00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:53.940
coped with with being injured and there's no

00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:56.059
disrespect to him i just don't think he had the

00:53:56.059 --> 00:53:59.059
resilience to have been able to do what i see

00:53:59.059 --> 00:54:06.539
some of the veterans do today but who knows you

00:54:06.539 --> 00:54:11.679
know that's an unknown so before we hit record

00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:14.340
you you'd mentioned about you know meeting someone

00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:19.719
else later so walk me through you know just processing

00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.559
this entire thing the grief and let's kind of

00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:24.539
lead into that because obviously it's a very

00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:27.519
poignant poignant conversation needs to be had

00:54:27.519 --> 00:54:33.840
as well yeah and it and it's something that i've

00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:36.820
only just began to really acknowledge publicly

00:54:36.820 --> 00:54:39.440
i kind of wrote about it in in my first book

00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:42.559
which was written as a biographical fiction so

00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:46.599
you know i don't owe him anything but you know

00:54:46.599 --> 00:54:49.760
i i it was mainly for my family and other people

00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:58.300
but you know i I think the more healing you do,

00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:00.360
the more you understand why people are the way

00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:03.420
they are. And, you know, you don't have to necessarily

00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:10.820
do them any harm either. But yeah, so the first

00:55:10.820 --> 00:55:13.900
thing that happens after somebody dies in service

00:55:13.900 --> 00:55:18.119
is, so I got told on the Sunday and then the

00:55:18.119 --> 00:55:20.500
following morning, the family's office were in

00:55:20.500 --> 00:55:23.949
my apartment with. a piece of paper which was

00:55:23.949 --> 00:55:26.489
a license for me to stay in my property because

00:55:26.489 --> 00:55:35.090
you're no longer entitled to your home and so

00:55:35.090 --> 00:55:38.389
they were actually pretty good i mean i have

00:55:38.389 --> 00:55:40.150
heard some horror stories but with me they were

00:55:40.150 --> 00:55:47.829
pretty good and um because it was the first time

00:55:47.829 --> 00:55:51.010
that we'd had repatriation in the uk it had never

00:55:51.010 --> 00:55:54.059
been done before the funerals weren't for six

00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:59.199
months after they died so all the funerals were

00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:02.320
in the november december time and then i moved

00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:08.440
and um by the spring i'd moved back to somerset

00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:21.619
um so that was by then that was 1983 and then

00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:35.019
You know, you think when you're young that you've

00:56:35.019 --> 00:56:40.059
got your whole life ahead of you. And then suddenly

00:56:40.059 --> 00:56:42.980
everything changes and everything that you thought

00:56:42.980 --> 00:56:46.539
you were doing has changed. So I got a part -time

00:56:46.539 --> 00:56:50.860
job and I kind of started to build a home. And

00:56:50.860 --> 00:56:58.619
then in 1984, I met somebody else. And here's

00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:00.960
the thing I think why I feel so strongly about

00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:08.320
talking about this publicly now is when I spoke

00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:10.780
earlier about being the invisible child in a

00:57:10.780 --> 00:57:15.500
narcissistic family, one of the reasons why Gary

00:57:15.500 --> 00:57:17.860
will remain one of the most poignant relationships

00:57:17.860 --> 00:57:20.159
in my whole life was because he was the first

00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:25.340
person who truly saw me. And I had a bond with

00:57:25.340 --> 00:57:28.079
somebody that I'd never had before. You know,

00:57:28.099 --> 00:57:34.199
somebody that really understood me. I didn't

00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:38.000
have to always be flowery. You know, I could

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:42.679
be, I could have PMT. You know, I could be myself.

00:57:43.019 --> 00:57:45.599
I could be happy. I could be sad. You know, we

00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:48.480
could be everything to each other. I'm honest

00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:51.500
with that. And I've never had that before. So

00:57:51.500 --> 00:57:55.239
losing that, I think, can never be underestimated.

00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:02.300
But I hadn't done the therapy and I hadn't done

00:58:02.300 --> 00:58:04.519
the work and I didn't understand psychology.

00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:08.699
I didn't understand the dynamics of my dysfunctional

00:58:08.699 --> 00:58:13.420
family. And so therefore, I was a prime target

00:58:13.420 --> 00:58:17.739
for somebody to come in on that wound. Because

00:58:17.739 --> 00:58:21.039
not only have I got the childhood wounds of the

00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:23.079
dysfunctional family and being the invisible

00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:25.900
child and not being loved and not being accepted,

00:58:26.059 --> 00:58:30.010
I then got on top of that. an extra wound from

00:58:30.010 --> 00:58:32.630
having somebody that finally saw me loved me

00:58:32.630 --> 00:58:34.750
for exactly who i was warts and all and then

00:58:34.750 --> 00:58:37.630
got themselves killed and they're not there anymore

00:58:37.630 --> 00:58:44.070
and no but nowhere to go with that because nobody

00:58:44.070 --> 00:58:46.369
talked about bereavement counseling back in those

00:58:46.369 --> 00:58:48.750
days you just go out into the world and get on

00:58:48.750 --> 00:58:54.550
with it and you know somebody asked me it was

00:58:54.550 --> 00:58:57.550
actually my hairdresser asked me today it's really

00:58:57.550 --> 00:58:59.110
interesting i was telling her i was doing this

00:58:59.110 --> 00:59:01.429
podcast and she said she said you know when gary

00:59:01.429 --> 00:59:04.829
died she said did your mom was your mom supportive

00:59:04.829 --> 00:59:07.610
i said no what my mum said to me was it could

00:59:07.610 --> 00:59:10.690
happen to me you know i mean typical narcissist

00:59:10.690 --> 00:59:15.889
you know what i mean um and i said but mom it

00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:20.349
has happened to me and all she said and after

00:59:20.349 --> 00:59:22.170
about the third time of her saying yeah but it

00:59:22.170 --> 00:59:24.409
could happen to me you know your dad could die

00:59:24.409 --> 00:59:30.010
you know What did happen was my dad died two

00:59:30.010 --> 00:59:35.150
years later. So I think all of this is very relevant,

00:59:35.289 --> 00:59:37.849
coming back to who I met. So I met this guy in

00:59:37.849 --> 00:59:42.769
1984. And despite the fact that I had this dysfunctional

00:59:42.769 --> 00:59:47.030
home, you know, my dad was the enabler. And if

00:59:47.030 --> 00:59:49.030
you met my dad, everybody that met my dad would

00:59:49.030 --> 00:59:52.969
say, what a nice chap, you know? And I loved

00:59:52.969 --> 00:59:56.900
my, I really loved my dad. But after I've met

00:59:56.900 --> 01:00:00.920
this guy, then what happened was my dad died.

01:00:00.940 --> 01:00:04.940
My dad actually did die very suddenly. He literally

01:00:04.940 --> 01:00:07.320
went to sleep one night, never woke up. So I've

01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:11.059
got this compounded grief. You know, the end

01:00:11.059 --> 01:00:14.880
of 1979, my grampy died just after Warren Point.

01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:22.489
And then Gary gets killed in 1982. and then two

01:00:22.489 --> 01:00:24.929
years later my father died suddenly so the three

01:00:24.929 --> 01:00:29.989
most significant men in my life just gone in

01:00:29.989 --> 01:00:33.469
the space of four and a half years so this man

01:00:33.469 --> 01:00:38.409
who's coming on this wound has got somebody who's

01:00:38.409 --> 01:00:42.690
incredibly vulnerable on his hands oh boy did

01:00:42.690 --> 01:00:52.210
he use that to his advantage and He was another

01:00:52.210 --> 01:01:00.889
serving soldier. He was attached to an army camp

01:01:00.889 --> 01:01:06.269
near to Taunton. We just met out one night. So,

01:01:06.369 --> 01:01:09.829
you know, I was horrified when I found out that

01:01:09.829 --> 01:01:13.190
he was serving. But, you know, back in those

01:01:13.190 --> 01:01:15.929
days, you had to give your 18 -month notice and

01:01:15.929 --> 01:01:18.289
he'd already served nine months at that time.

01:01:18.789 --> 01:01:24.050
And so... For me, as long as he was sure that

01:01:24.050 --> 01:01:25.590
he was getting out and he wasn't going to go

01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:27.650
back on that, I was like, there's only nine months

01:01:27.650 --> 01:01:30.690
to go. And so during that time, you know, he

01:01:30.690 --> 01:01:37.789
had to go back to his regiment in Germany. That

01:01:37.789 --> 01:01:39.989
was no big deal. I was used to separation. I

01:01:39.989 --> 01:01:41.610
was like, okay, you know, I'll see you when I

01:01:41.610 --> 01:01:55.320
see you. And then we... He got out. And we carried

01:01:55.320 --> 01:02:04.239
on a relationship. And on the surface, we appeared

01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:07.340
to get on quite well, you know, like he did his

01:02:07.340 --> 01:02:14.159
thing. He played squash. I went to the gym. I

01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:16.099
kind of got into bodybuilding by then, you know,

01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:21.739
I went to the gym. We had a dog, we had a cat,

01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:24.900
we went the country walks, you know, we on the

01:02:24.900 --> 01:02:31.059
surface had an okay family life. Until I found

01:02:31.059 --> 01:02:34.699
out one thing. And of course, what happens is

01:02:34.699 --> 01:02:36.920
when you find out that what you've got in front

01:02:36.920 --> 01:02:40.420
of you is not what you thought it was. And it's

01:02:40.420 --> 01:02:42.639
quite a significant thing that you find out,

01:02:42.699 --> 01:02:48.619
you then start looking for other things. And

01:02:48.619 --> 01:02:51.460
I just discovered this person was nothing like

01:02:51.460 --> 01:02:53.639
I, they just weren't the person I thought I was

01:02:53.639 --> 01:03:01.320
with at all. And you discover the lies. And of

01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:03.239
course, when I confronted him, that's when the

01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:10.699
violence started. And then it's the, I'm sorry,

01:03:10.820 --> 01:03:12.760
it'll never happen again. And, you know, any

01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:14.860
woman who's been through domestic violence will

01:03:14.860 --> 01:03:19.659
know that one. And I remember him at one point

01:03:19.659 --> 01:03:23.360
begging me. And I just said, I'll give it six

01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.619
months because I didn't want to tear my family

01:03:25.619 --> 01:03:32.260
apart. And I think every woman who's given somebody

01:03:32.260 --> 01:03:36.539
a second chance has been there. You know, you

01:03:36.539 --> 01:03:38.360
don't want to believe this is going to happen

01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:47.090
again. And then. There was more things. And then

01:03:47.090 --> 01:03:49.289
eventually something happened one day and I discovered

01:03:49.289 --> 01:03:54.170
something. And I just said, there's nothing on

01:03:54.170 --> 01:03:56.909
this planet I can think of to forgive that one

01:03:56.909 --> 01:04:00.090
for any reason or any excuse you could come out

01:04:00.090 --> 01:04:04.389
with. And there was actual, you know, evidence.

01:04:05.090 --> 01:04:12.010
And I remember saying, I'm going out now. And

01:04:12.010 --> 01:04:16.679
I expect you packed. I'll be back in two hours

01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:18.860
and I expect you packed and I'll drop you wherever

01:04:18.860 --> 01:04:20.679
you want to go. But I'm keeping both the cars

01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:32.199
because I paid for them. And if you had any ways

01:04:32.199 --> 01:04:36.199
of a normal situation, then that would have been

01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:39.260
the end of the relationship. But when you're

01:04:39.260 --> 01:04:43.280
dealing with somebody who's not reasonable, of

01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:50.570
course it's not. And I had no rights. There were

01:04:50.570 --> 01:04:59.030
no stalking laws. And I remember calling the

01:04:59.030 --> 01:05:01.949
police one day and saying, look, you know, he's

01:05:01.949 --> 01:05:03.630
been violent in the past. He's threatened me.

01:05:05.869 --> 01:05:08.750
And this copper on the end of the phone said

01:05:08.750 --> 01:05:12.630
to me, tell me what he looks like. And I described

01:05:12.630 --> 01:05:17.590
him. Very distinctive chap. And he said, oh,

01:05:17.710 --> 01:05:19.670
I know who he is. So if I see him, I'll pick

01:05:19.670 --> 01:05:21.849
him up. Because there was a warrant out for his

01:05:21.849 --> 01:05:27.369
arrest for something else. He was never, that

01:05:27.369 --> 01:05:29.469
was never executed. He was friends with a lot

01:05:29.469 --> 01:05:34.030
of the local police force. And there were no

01:05:34.030 --> 01:05:37.309
stalking laws. And when I finally moved, I actually

01:05:37.309 --> 01:05:40.429
got a boyfriend nearly a year later. And this

01:05:40.429 --> 01:05:42.530
is the kind of thing that he would do. And I

01:05:42.530 --> 01:05:46.210
remember one night. just literally is saying

01:05:46.210 --> 01:05:51.329
shh and my new boyfriend said and i said just

01:05:51.329 --> 01:05:55.210
be quiet and you know the sound of like an up

01:05:55.210 --> 01:05:58.869
and over garage door that's a kind of sound that

01:05:58.869 --> 01:06:03.170
it makes i heard the garage door open at the

01:06:03.170 --> 01:06:06.230
back of the garage there was a a door that came

01:06:06.230 --> 01:06:08.329
around to the back of the house and i'd heard

01:06:08.329 --> 01:06:12.800
the door open And then I'd heard it close and

01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:16.840
I'd heard the garage door close again. And this

01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:19.659
new boyfriend said to me, do you want me to go

01:06:19.659 --> 01:06:21.599
and check? And I said, don't even bother. He'll

01:06:21.599 --> 01:06:26.280
be gone. You won't find him. And that's just

01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:28.179
one example of the kind of thing that he would

01:06:28.179 --> 01:06:33.179
do to screw with my mind. And I worked in a health

01:06:33.179 --> 01:06:37.000
club and I, you know, I kind of ran it sort of

01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:41.800
on the ladies days. And so I would be, being

01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:44.800
the last person out and locked the door and at

01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:49.039
10 o 'clock at night it was like a big glass

01:06:49.039 --> 01:06:51.480
door and I'd hear it being shaken and rattled

01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:59.179
and like you know I knew I you know I'd feel

01:06:59.179 --> 01:07:02.380
somebody in the shadows and when it got really

01:07:02.380 --> 01:07:07.539
serious was and this is the first time I've actually

01:07:07.539 --> 01:07:17.719
said this in any interview was when on my doorstep

01:07:17.719 --> 01:07:20.980
one day, he literally came right up into my face

01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:29.500
and he said to me, I'm going to kill you one

01:07:29.500 --> 01:07:31.739
day. I'm going to stab you until you're dead

01:07:31.739 --> 01:07:40.860
and you're not going to see it coming. And I

01:07:40.860 --> 01:07:46.460
felt sick to my stomach. How do you answer that?

01:07:49.179 --> 01:07:51.360
And one of the reasons I'm speaking about it

01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.400
now is that I mentioned to you before we started

01:07:54.400 --> 01:07:56.900
the interview that I've been following Laura

01:07:56.900 --> 01:08:00.300
Richards, you know, crime analyst, and I really

01:08:00.300 --> 01:08:02.880
admire the work that she's been doing and has

01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:06.659
done with coercive control and with DV cases

01:08:06.659 --> 01:08:11.829
in general. And she's now responsible or a significant

01:08:11.829 --> 01:08:14.489
part in getting coercive control as something

01:08:14.489 --> 01:08:18.689
that is now a jailable offence in the UK. Of

01:08:18.689 --> 01:08:21.350
course, you've got to prove it. It's not quite

01:08:21.350 --> 01:08:23.569
the same as having, you know, black eyes and

01:08:23.569 --> 01:08:31.550
broken bones. But I saw a reel of hers the other

01:08:31.550 --> 01:08:36.220
day, and she actually said... one in two people,

01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:42.000
one in two, I think she said men, because it's

01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:45.840
mainly, you know, a male dominant, and that's

01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:47.899
not to say women don't commit domestic violence,

01:08:48.039 --> 01:08:50.279
of course they do, but I think she said one in

01:08:50.279 --> 01:08:52.460
two people who issue threats to kill actually

01:08:52.460 --> 01:08:57.020
carry them out. And I don't, I can't remember

01:08:57.020 --> 01:09:07.630
the statistics, but it's... It's quite horrifying

01:09:07.630 --> 01:09:15.029
how many murders there are. And, you know, she

01:09:15.029 --> 01:09:19.090
talks quite a lot about femicide. It's quite

01:09:19.090 --> 01:09:30.010
horrific. And so one of the things that I live

01:09:30.010 --> 01:09:32.069
with, you know, there's certain things you carry

01:09:32.069 --> 01:09:34.710
on living with after these things happen, is

01:09:34.710 --> 01:09:40.350
that... In one of his moments of violence, he

01:09:40.350 --> 01:09:43.069
picked me up. And I mean, I'm only five foot

01:09:43.069 --> 01:09:46.909
one, so I'm not exactly very big. And he picked

01:09:46.909 --> 01:09:51.050
me up and he threw me from one room. He literally

01:09:51.050 --> 01:09:54.430
threw me out the room and I landed on my back.

01:09:56.010 --> 01:10:00.149
And somebody was looking out for me that day

01:10:00.149 --> 01:10:05.390
because I could have been paralysed. I was just

01:10:05.390 --> 01:10:09.630
lucky in the way that I landed. But it's left

01:10:09.630 --> 01:10:19.289
me with a back problem because of it. And I didn't

01:10:19.289 --> 01:10:26.010
even go see a doctor. I only found out what was

01:10:26.010 --> 01:10:36.489
going on years later when I had a scan. I didn't

01:10:36.489 --> 01:10:40.510
want to go and see a doctor. Because that invisible

01:10:40.510 --> 01:10:47.710
child who had been told it didn't happen. No

01:10:47.710 --> 01:10:52.210
one's going to believe you. Struggled to have

01:10:52.210 --> 01:10:55.590
a voice anyway. But then knowing that he was,

01:10:55.630 --> 01:10:58.770
you know, friends with so many of the local force.

01:11:00.890 --> 01:11:05.569
And that was... a horrendous position to be in

01:11:05.569 --> 01:11:14.050
back in those days. So in 1991 I kind of got

01:11:14.050 --> 01:11:20.689
to the point where I think in some ways PTSD

01:11:20.689 --> 01:11:23.930
can be favourable in some situations because

01:11:23.930 --> 01:11:28.649
you you dissociate and so when you're dissociated

01:11:28.649 --> 01:11:31.399
you can get on with everyday life. You know,

01:11:31.420 --> 01:11:34.079
it's not something that you're dwelling on all

01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:43.579
day, every day. And in 1991, I had somebody who

01:11:43.579 --> 01:11:46.199
was a bit like a surrogate dad to me after my

01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:50.220
father died. I called him uncle, but he was a

01:11:50.220 --> 01:11:53.619
lovely guy. And we talked it through and he said,

01:11:53.840 --> 01:12:01.050
go, just go. And when I look back on it now,

01:12:01.250 --> 01:12:09.569
I don't know where I got the strength from. And

01:12:09.569 --> 01:12:14.029
to this day, I look back on that time. You know,

01:12:14.130 --> 01:12:19.989
the Southeast was undergoing a really bad recession.

01:12:20.170 --> 01:12:22.130
And on the news every day, there were like 500

01:12:22.130 --> 01:12:25.810
to 1 ,000 people losing their jobs. And I packed

01:12:25.810 --> 01:12:33.380
a bag. And I got a bedsit in East London. And

01:12:33.380 --> 01:12:35.500
I traipsed the streets looking for work. And

01:12:35.500 --> 01:12:39.920
the first weekend, it was actually February.

01:12:41.579 --> 01:12:43.979
And I ought to check the date, actually, because,

01:12:44.020 --> 01:12:45.340
you know, I said to you about being triggered

01:12:45.340 --> 01:12:48.439
earlier. I kind of wonder if it was around about

01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:53.800
now, because it was February 1991. We had this

01:12:53.800 --> 01:12:56.760
terrible snowstorm and yet the motorways were

01:12:56.760 --> 01:13:00.819
actually closed for three days. You know, it's

01:13:00.819 --> 01:13:03.460
like in the UK, we get too much snow and we can't

01:13:03.460 --> 01:13:07.060
cope, you know, we're not geared up for it. So

01:13:07.060 --> 01:13:11.500
the first weekend I came to London, I couldn't

01:13:11.500 --> 01:13:18.140
even get home. And I remember traipsing through

01:13:18.140 --> 01:13:22.119
the snow. to jobs I wasn't qualified for, just

01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:24.840
begging anyone and everybody that would listen.

01:13:26.420 --> 01:13:29.600
And thankfully, what I had in my armory, I had,

01:13:29.699 --> 01:13:32.520
along the way, I'd studied psychology and I had

01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:34.380
something else in my armory. And then this really

01:13:34.380 --> 01:13:39.760
unexpected job came up. I would have done anything.

01:13:40.079 --> 01:13:43.779
I mean, at the time, I got a temporary job in

01:13:43.779 --> 01:13:46.720
the job centre for six weeks, which paid my expenses.

01:13:47.630 --> 01:13:50.810
So I would literally work Monday to Friday, live

01:13:50.810 --> 01:13:53.529
in the bedsit. I would drive home on a Friday

01:13:53.529 --> 01:13:55.569
night. It would be one o 'clock in the morning

01:13:55.569 --> 01:13:57.229
by the time I would get back. I'd be falling

01:13:57.229 --> 01:13:59.829
asleep virtually at the wheel. And then Saturday

01:13:59.829 --> 01:14:05.529
morning, I would wake up, deal with any mail,

01:14:05.810 --> 01:14:09.310
go and get shopping, do what I needed to do to

01:14:09.310 --> 01:14:11.550
make sure the home was running while I was gone.

01:14:12.850 --> 01:14:17.039
And then Sunday, I'd leave really... quite early

01:14:17.039 --> 01:14:19.640
in the afternoon, about two -ish, because the

01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:22.600
traffic coming into London later on was horrendous,

01:14:22.659 --> 01:14:25.640
you know, so it would be like a hamster on a

01:14:25.640 --> 01:14:28.539
treadmill. And then during that six weeks, I

01:14:28.539 --> 01:14:31.579
had that temporary job. I saw this advert in

01:14:31.579 --> 01:14:34.220
the newspaper, and they wanted a bereavement

01:14:34.220 --> 01:14:36.920
counsellor to work in palliative care at the

01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:40.880
hospital. And I just applied for it. And even

01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:45.619
that job, a specialised job, There were over

01:14:45.619 --> 01:14:50.539
80 applicants. And I always remember my new boss,

01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:53.220
when I got the job, he said, because I was still

01:14:53.220 --> 01:14:56.319
using my husband's name then. So, you know, the

01:14:56.319 --> 01:14:58.819
interviews were done in alphabetical order. So

01:14:58.819 --> 01:15:02.199
I was like the first interview of the day. And

01:15:02.199 --> 01:15:06.380
I remember afterwards, he said, he said, everyone

01:15:06.380 --> 01:15:09.000
was going to have to beat you after that interview.

01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:13.960
You know, you made it quite clear you wanted

01:15:13.960 --> 01:15:16.760
that job. You could do that job. You'd be good

01:15:16.760 --> 01:15:19.060
at that job. I mean, you know, everybody that

01:15:19.060 --> 01:15:22.300
came in after that had to be better than you.

01:15:23.619 --> 01:15:28.880
And they said to me, I said, well, will you let

01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:33.680
me know? And they said to me, we'll let you know

01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:39.039
within three days. And I got a call that afternoon.

01:15:39.739 --> 01:15:42.380
offering me the job and it just gave me a bit

01:15:42.380 --> 01:15:44.939
of space to go and sort a few things out and

01:15:44.939 --> 01:15:48.079
when I got back to the bedsit that night the

01:15:48.079 --> 01:15:50.159
phone was ringing in the bedsit and it was my

01:15:50.159 --> 01:15:54.619
old boss from Somerset and he just said congratulations

01:15:54.619 --> 01:15:58.840
and I said what and I went oh my god Jeff they

01:15:58.840 --> 01:16:01.220
obviously they run you for the reference because

01:16:01.220 --> 01:16:03.359
to offer me the job that quickly they'd had to

01:16:03.359 --> 01:16:06.119
phone the references you know and have that conversation

01:16:07.100 --> 01:16:10.119
And so he was ringing to congratulate me. And

01:16:10.119 --> 01:16:13.840
that, to me, was the beginning of me being able

01:16:13.840 --> 01:16:18.359
to fully disappear. And, you know, the interesting

01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:23.779
thing is, is that where I moved to just happened

01:16:23.779 --> 01:16:27.979
to be where I knew somebody already and I could

01:16:27.979 --> 01:16:33.840
get work. And it turned out it wasn't far from

01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:37.800
this guy's, some of his family. And all I said

01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:41.500
to them was, if you hear from him, you don't

01:16:41.500 --> 01:16:43.880
know where I am, you haven't seen me. And nobody

01:16:43.880 --> 01:16:50.359
ever asked any questions. And it was many, many

01:16:50.359 --> 01:16:54.539
years later, I was kind of talking to, I guess

01:16:54.539 --> 01:16:56.340
the easiest way of describing it would have been

01:16:56.340 --> 01:16:58.060
my sort of brother -in -law, because we were

01:16:58.060 --> 01:17:01.279
never actually married, right? And I mentioned

01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:04.079
the fact that he'd been violent and actually

01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:08.590
wired me. All he said was, yeah, we thought it

01:17:08.590 --> 01:17:13.909
was much. And there is that same theme of playing

01:17:13.909 --> 01:17:26.569
down what had happened. So the irony of it was

01:17:26.569 --> 01:17:31.350
that he then was out of touch with his family.

01:17:32.069 --> 01:17:34.329
And you know what, when I look back on it now,

01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:39.539
if i'd taken the risk of staying who knows whether

01:17:39.539 --> 01:17:44.119
it would have been okay or not but he then disappeared

01:17:44.119 --> 01:17:49.279
himself i mean i have my suspicions about what

01:17:49.279 --> 01:17:52.979
part of that time was you know um because he

01:17:52.979 --> 01:17:55.800
you know he put it this way i had everybody from

01:17:55.800 --> 01:17:59.060
the bailiffs to the fraud squad on my doorstep

01:17:59.060 --> 01:18:01.960
after we split up so i mean there were several

01:18:01.960 --> 01:18:05.850
things going on in the background And none of

01:18:05.850 --> 01:18:10.449
his family saw him for 30 years anyway. Well,

01:18:10.470 --> 01:18:14.189
you mentioned beginning this journey actually

01:18:14.189 --> 01:18:16.789
as a grief counsellor, getting paid in a position.

01:18:17.550 --> 01:18:21.460
Walk me through. not only you know that role

01:18:21.460 --> 01:18:23.760
as far as being able to use your story to start

01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:25.579
helping people but but obviously there's still

01:18:25.579 --> 01:18:27.140
a lot of healing it's got to be done as you said

01:18:27.140 --> 01:18:29.300
this is a long time ago we weren't having conversations

01:18:29.300 --> 01:18:32.979
like this back then so kind of what what was

01:18:32.979 --> 01:18:35.960
your grief slash mental health journey and then

01:18:35.960 --> 01:18:39.880
how did you start kind of realizing that as you

01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:41.659
were healing you were able to help other people

01:18:41.659 --> 01:18:46.600
as well one of the things that will always stand

01:18:46.600 --> 01:18:50.470
out in my mind is that as part of what we did

01:18:50.470 --> 01:18:53.649
so we had we we had the first of all we had it

01:18:53.649 --> 01:18:55.850
was very exciting times because we had the only

01:18:55.850 --> 01:18:59.609
counseling service in the whole of london it

01:18:59.609 --> 01:19:03.010
was all very new back then i mean you know there's

01:19:03.010 --> 01:19:05.670
there was no mental health like there is now

01:19:05.670 --> 01:19:11.949
yeah um and so it was a new service though my

01:19:11.949 --> 01:19:16.210
role was specifically palliative care, you had

01:19:16.210 --> 01:19:19.609
to be terminal to see me. So I saw patients that

01:19:19.609 --> 01:19:22.350
were terminally ill and their families. But one

01:19:22.350 --> 01:19:24.670
of the things that we did as part of that was

01:19:24.670 --> 01:19:34.229
we ran six -week group sessions. And I always

01:19:34.229 --> 01:19:36.050
remember this with a smile on my face because

01:19:36.050 --> 01:19:39.930
it's what we call now lived experience, but nobody

01:19:39.930 --> 01:19:42.750
called it lived experience back then. but it's

01:19:42.750 --> 01:19:47.470
so powerful so there were two facilitators with

01:19:47.470 --> 01:19:49.729
this group and all the groups bereaved and the

01:19:49.729 --> 01:19:52.869
idea is that they're getting to know other people

01:19:52.869 --> 01:19:54.810
that have been bereaved and hopefully they'll

01:19:54.810 --> 01:19:56.590
make some friends or you know people that they

01:19:56.590 --> 01:19:58.569
can keep in contact with after the six weeks

01:19:58.569 --> 01:20:05.310
and that they share the experience of loss and

01:20:05.310 --> 01:20:08.670
one day my colleague went out to do some photocopying

01:20:08.670 --> 01:20:12.340
and the minute she left the room One of the guys

01:20:12.340 --> 01:20:16.199
said, can we ask you a personal question? I said,

01:20:16.239 --> 01:20:18.180
well, you can ask me. I may not answer, but fire

01:20:18.180 --> 01:20:23.579
away. He said, are you one of us? A typical therapist.

01:20:23.699 --> 01:20:25.239
I said, what do you mean? What do you mean by

01:20:25.239 --> 01:20:30.060
that? And he said, well, we're sure that you're,

01:20:30.100 --> 01:20:34.720
you know, he said, well, have you lost somebody?

01:20:34.859 --> 01:20:37.739
And I said, well, yeah, I have actually. My husband

01:20:37.739 --> 01:20:40.920
died. And the whole room erupted with this, we

01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:43.079
knew it. And apparently they'd been talking about

01:20:43.079 --> 01:20:45.279
it because they had been swapping phone numbers

01:20:45.279 --> 01:20:50.859
and things. And he said, you know, no disrespect

01:20:50.859 --> 01:20:53.140
to your colleague. We're sure she's very well

01:20:53.140 --> 01:20:55.939
qualified and she's fine at her job. I said,

01:20:55.960 --> 01:20:57.500
well, what made you ask that? He said, well,

01:20:57.579 --> 01:21:00.180
because when you put things into the group, when

01:21:00.180 --> 01:21:03.159
you say things into the group, you say it like

01:21:03.159 --> 01:21:13.720
you know it. Not like you've learned it. And

01:21:13.720 --> 01:21:16.140
that whole experience still brings a smile to

01:21:16.140 --> 01:21:21.020
my face today because I think we use more. The

01:21:21.020 --> 01:21:23.140
whole idea of podcasts and everything that we

01:21:23.140 --> 01:21:26.380
do now is so much more around lived experience.

01:21:26.479 --> 01:21:30.500
And, you know, I've chosen to share a bit more

01:21:30.500 --> 01:21:32.920
of my story today because what I went through

01:21:32.920 --> 01:21:43.949
was horrendous. and i didn't talk about it there

01:21:43.949 --> 01:21:45.869
were very few people that ever knew about it

01:21:45.869 --> 01:21:49.829
until i wrote that first book and then i wrote

01:21:49.829 --> 01:21:52.289
that as a biographical fiction you know and i

01:21:52.289 --> 01:22:01.270
spoke about the story but when we share things

01:22:01.270 --> 01:22:07.890
from a place like i can talk about it now having

01:22:07.890 --> 01:22:10.909
moved through it. And I did actually meet up

01:22:10.909 --> 01:22:20.130
with him a couple of years ago. And I'm so glad

01:22:20.130 --> 01:22:22.750
I did because two things happened in that meeting

01:22:22.750 --> 01:22:28.649
that made me really go, whoa. One was I was late

01:22:28.649 --> 01:22:31.090
because there was traffic on the M25 when we'd

01:22:31.090 --> 01:22:34.250
agreed to sort of meet. midpoint he still to

01:22:34.250 --> 01:22:36.470
this day doesn't know where I live and he's never

01:22:36.470 --> 01:22:42.090
going to know where I live you know um but when

01:22:42.090 --> 01:22:44.569
I met with him I think I was in contact with

01:22:44.569 --> 01:22:49.510
him for a while and I really believe that anybody

01:22:49.510 --> 01:22:53.550
can change anything if they choose to if they

01:22:53.550 --> 01:22:57.649
want to you but the willingness has got to be

01:22:57.649 --> 01:23:03.300
there to do the work So I get there late and

01:23:03.300 --> 01:23:06.340
there was this pub. And, you know, when you get

01:23:06.340 --> 01:23:09.060
like these little wooded areas next to pubs in

01:23:09.060 --> 01:23:13.380
the countryside. And he said, should we just

01:23:13.380 --> 01:23:16.420
go for a walk down there? And this is what I

01:23:16.420 --> 01:23:18.359
get from listening to Laura Richards and the

01:23:18.359 --> 01:23:20.399
experiences. I don't know if you've ever seen

01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:24.180
that series Dirty John, you know, that a lot

01:23:24.180 --> 01:23:29.890
of women have had certain experience with. violence

01:23:29.890 --> 01:23:31.750
whether it's sexual violence or whether it's

01:23:31.750 --> 01:23:35.010
domestic violence or both you get you do get

01:23:35.010 --> 01:23:38.829
the hackles go up and as he's pointed to this

01:23:38.829 --> 01:23:43.149
i every every hair on me stood on end and i thought

01:23:43.149 --> 01:23:45.930
there's no way on this planet i'm walking down

01:23:45.930 --> 01:23:50.369
there with you i said no it's all right we can

01:23:50.369 --> 01:23:53.710
nip in for a quick drink so i think i had a mineral

01:23:53.710 --> 01:23:55.829
water and he had a coke or whatever you know

01:23:56.619 --> 01:23:58.899
And the other thing that came out of that meeting

01:23:58.899 --> 01:24:04.739
was there was no remorse. There was no sorry

01:24:04.739 --> 01:24:08.840
for what I did to you. There was no remorse whatsoever.

01:24:10.859 --> 01:24:13.619
But that in itself was actually very healing

01:24:13.619 --> 01:24:16.720
because I wouldn't suggest anybody had that kind

01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:19.199
of meet unless they were really ready for it.

01:24:19.260 --> 01:24:23.460
But I was. And I was prepared to accept an apology

01:24:23.460 --> 01:24:27.180
if one was forthcoming. I think somebody who's

01:24:27.180 --> 01:24:29.779
very well known for being sorry for what happened,

01:24:29.880 --> 01:24:32.640
you know, is the singer David Soul. You know,

01:24:32.680 --> 01:24:34.279
he went through that journey of being violent

01:24:34.279 --> 01:24:37.420
and then he genuinely sort of did some work on

01:24:37.420 --> 01:24:40.779
himself and apologised and everything afterwards.

01:24:40.979 --> 01:24:44.460
So it's not that it never happens, but it's that

01:24:44.460 --> 01:24:47.680
thing that when somebody's sorry, they take accountability,

01:24:48.000 --> 01:24:51.789
don't they? And when they're not prepared to

01:24:51.789 --> 01:24:54.130
take any accountability and there's no remorse,

01:24:54.130 --> 01:24:59.630
they're not sorry. They don't care. It's really

01:24:59.630 --> 01:25:03.270
interesting. The last book I wrote, one of the

01:25:03.270 --> 01:25:05.710
big themes is generational trauma. I really wanted

01:25:05.710 --> 01:25:08.449
to kind of, you know, get the reader and hopefully

01:25:08.449 --> 01:25:11.970
the viewer and turning it into a show. To understand

01:25:11.970 --> 01:25:14.470
that there's a domino effect. And, you know,

01:25:14.510 --> 01:25:18.069
if you, as you know, as we sit here, if we can

01:25:18.069 --> 01:25:20.569
identify those dominoes, then we can stop them

01:25:20.569 --> 01:25:23.590
falling ideally onto our children or our grandchildren,

01:25:23.789 --> 01:25:25.409
at least if, you know, depending on the timing,

01:25:25.430 --> 01:25:30.340
but that. puts the responsibility squarely on

01:25:30.340 --> 01:25:32.359
our shoulders to do the work to do the healing

01:25:32.359 --> 01:25:35.560
to look at you know what happened to understand

01:25:35.560 --> 01:25:37.680
our childhood to forgive our parents because

01:25:37.680 --> 01:25:39.859
we understand their childhood um you know and

01:25:39.859 --> 01:25:42.060
be grateful of the good parts of our upbringing

01:25:42.060 --> 01:25:47.500
um but if you don't then you just watch that

01:25:47.500 --> 01:25:50.149
domino smash right onto your child And this is

01:25:50.149 --> 01:25:52.350
why I think you see two types of people. Usually

01:25:52.350 --> 01:25:54.829
you have the ones that do the same exact thing

01:25:54.829 --> 01:25:56.649
and you hear this a lot. Well, there's alcoholism

01:25:56.649 --> 01:25:59.890
in my family. It's genetic. Like, well, no, we

01:25:59.890 --> 01:26:02.390
know about epigenetics now. It's still something

01:26:02.390 --> 01:26:05.189
that you can turn around and you can make sobriety

01:26:05.189 --> 01:26:09.229
genetic, but you have to do the work. Or what

01:26:09.229 --> 01:26:11.609
I saw, you know, I was just talking to my siblings

01:26:11.609 --> 01:26:14.949
and it's very much, you know, with us is that.

01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:18.420
There's an element of I'm never going to be like

01:26:18.420 --> 01:26:21.100
that because I know how it feels. And I'm not

01:26:21.100 --> 01:26:23.899
going to let my children feel the way that I

01:26:23.899 --> 01:26:26.840
felt when I was a child. So, you know, you literally

01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:28.859
are at a crossroads. And of course, it's also

01:26:28.859 --> 01:26:31.039
down to the mentors that you have in your life.

01:26:31.119 --> 01:26:32.819
Do you have these people that can help guide

01:26:32.819 --> 01:26:34.840
you? Are you exposed to the right tools? And

01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:37.439
it might be, you know, just someone to talk to.

01:26:37.500 --> 01:26:39.520
It might be a psychedelic retreat that you need

01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:42.180
to go to really unpack it. But this is, I think,

01:26:42.180 --> 01:26:45.210
what's exciting about. this time now, as we sit

01:26:45.210 --> 01:26:47.289
here having this conversation over this crazy

01:26:47.289 --> 01:26:51.489
technology that we've got is that Gen X, like

01:26:51.489 --> 01:26:54.810
our generation, I feel like we're straddling

01:26:54.810 --> 01:26:57.010
one foot on each side. We've got the kind of

01:26:57.010 --> 01:27:00.189
post -Victorian parents, and then we've got,

01:27:00.189 --> 01:27:02.970
you know, this young generation. And I feel like

01:27:02.970 --> 01:27:05.850
a lot of responsibility is on us. If we can do

01:27:05.850 --> 01:27:08.270
the work and we can be the ones talking about

01:27:08.270 --> 01:27:11.210
this stuff, the ripple effect can be positive

01:27:11.210 --> 01:27:16.239
moving forward. I think it is. And the only thing

01:27:16.239 --> 01:27:20.340
that I will say, I've skirted on the edges of

01:27:20.340 --> 01:27:23.260
it in my writing, but the only thing that I will

01:27:23.260 --> 01:27:26.100
say with regards to my own journey, and it's

01:27:26.100 --> 01:27:27.779
one of the reasons I'm sharing what I'm sharing

01:27:27.779 --> 01:27:32.460
today going forward, is because unfortunately,

01:27:32.739 --> 01:27:35.340
I can't sit here and say I didn't pass on any

01:27:35.340 --> 01:27:42.359
of my trauma. And I am deeply, deeply sorry that...

01:27:42.619 --> 01:27:46.739
that i didn't get you know enough help at the

01:27:46.739 --> 01:27:50.600
right time to avoid that but i think one of the

01:27:50.600 --> 01:27:52.779
one of the reasons why i feel it's important

01:27:52.779 --> 01:27:58.220
to share not excuse me there's this bit that

01:27:58.220 --> 01:28:01.060
everybody knows about my story that i'm a war

01:28:01.060 --> 01:28:04.239
widow but then they don't know the rest of it

01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:09.689
and you know It's always easy to judge. And I

01:28:09.689 --> 01:28:12.050
certainly used to judge my mother until I understood

01:28:12.050 --> 01:28:16.649
her backstory. I had to understand her backstory

01:28:16.649 --> 01:28:19.489
to forgive the things that she allowed to go

01:28:19.489 --> 01:28:24.010
on under her roof and not do anything to protect

01:28:24.010 --> 01:28:29.010
me. And that was pretty huge. But I have really

01:28:29.010 --> 01:28:32.010
100 % forgiven her. And I really understand how

01:28:32.010 --> 01:28:35.319
traumatized she was to become the person. People

01:28:35.319 --> 01:28:37.279
don't just suddenly wake up one day and say,

01:28:37.520 --> 01:28:41.000
I think I'll be a narcissist today. You know,

01:28:41.020 --> 01:28:43.859
those people are very traumatized children. You

01:28:43.859 --> 01:28:46.060
know, they've got their own generator. And so

01:28:46.060 --> 01:28:52.100
that's the way it was. But with me, I didn't

01:28:52.100 --> 01:28:57.819
get any support when my husband died. Where you

01:28:57.819 --> 01:29:00.560
normally would have family come around you and

01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:03.239
put their arms around you. I didn't have that.

01:29:05.520 --> 01:29:10.199
And then I had this other guy come in. And in

01:29:10.199 --> 01:29:13.600
a perfect world, would I want anyone to see somebody

01:29:13.600 --> 01:29:17.939
putting me through the hell he put me through?

01:29:18.020 --> 01:29:20.840
Of course not. In a perfect world, would I not

01:29:20.840 --> 01:29:23.000
have wanted to fall in love with somebody that

01:29:23.000 --> 01:29:26.359
would treat me well? Of course. But the reality

01:29:26.359 --> 01:29:30.159
was, I tried to seek help. And I'll give an example

01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:34.560
of how bad things were back in 1983. Before I

01:29:34.560 --> 01:29:38.399
move back to Somerset, I have a history of anorexia.

01:29:39.079 --> 01:29:41.619
I mean, again, I can laugh at it. It's always

01:29:41.619 --> 01:29:43.659
very interesting that the things that you can

01:29:43.659 --> 01:29:45.619
kind of like be very light about are the things

01:29:45.619 --> 01:29:48.319
that have no power over you anymore, you know.

01:29:48.619 --> 01:29:51.560
And I think when I look back on it now, yes,

01:29:51.699 --> 01:29:54.539
there is that element that I became a perfectionist.

01:29:54.539 --> 01:29:57.399
That was one of my coping mechanisms. But then

01:29:57.399 --> 01:29:59.720
there's this other side that I think this invisible

01:29:59.720 --> 01:30:02.399
child was literally trying to disappear so they

01:30:02.399 --> 01:30:04.819
couldn't be seen. Of course, you're not conscious

01:30:04.819 --> 01:30:08.960
of any of that. But then when Gary died, and

01:30:08.960 --> 01:30:12.479
I literally, the weight just fell off me. Even

01:30:12.479 --> 01:30:14.260
when I was eating, the weight fell off me. And

01:30:14.260 --> 01:30:16.779
then I kind of just couldn't eat at all. And

01:30:16.779 --> 01:30:19.199
I actually paid to go and see a psychiatrist.

01:30:19.699 --> 01:30:22.060
Again, this was prior to me studying psychology.

01:30:24.260 --> 01:30:28.579
And I said, look, I've got a problem. Every time

01:30:28.579 --> 01:30:31.600
I get immense trauma in my life, I just can't

01:30:31.600 --> 01:30:34.579
eat. and I don't want to live like this anymore

01:30:34.579 --> 01:30:37.920
I want to delve into the reasons behind this

01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:41.039
and this psychiatrist looked at me and said well

01:30:41.039 --> 01:30:42.819
you're very young and you're very pretty and

01:30:42.819 --> 01:30:44.619
I think the best thing you can do is get married

01:30:44.619 --> 01:30:46.960
again and wrote me a prescription for antidepressant

01:30:46.960 --> 01:30:53.220
that when I look back on it now as a trained

01:30:53.220 --> 01:30:57.000
and very experienced therapist I can think what

01:30:57.000 --> 01:31:00.520
about me made him so uncomfortable that he couldn't

01:31:00.520 --> 01:31:03.369
see me I mean, of course, I was manifesting the

01:31:03.369 --> 01:31:06.149
invisible child and the problem's not real. You

01:31:06.149 --> 01:31:09.229
know, I know what I was actually manifesting.

01:31:09.369 --> 01:31:12.649
But what was he seeing? What could he not handle?

01:31:12.850 --> 01:31:14.510
Because I was saying, look, I've got a problem.

01:31:14.569 --> 01:31:17.109
I need help. And I was prepared to pay for it.

01:31:18.409 --> 01:31:19.970
No, you're all right, dear. Just go and get,

01:31:20.050 --> 01:31:21.890
you're very young, very pretty. Go and get married

01:31:21.890 --> 01:31:24.989
again. So, of course, again, unconsciously, that's

01:31:24.989 --> 01:31:27.630
what drew me into another relationship. I met

01:31:27.630 --> 01:31:30.689
somebody and... I allowed myself to be chosen

01:31:30.689 --> 01:31:37.430
by a not very good man. So everything is a part

01:31:37.430 --> 01:31:44.609
of that journey, isn't it? And along the way,

01:31:44.609 --> 01:31:48.689
I've done a lot of work, but the more things

01:31:48.689 --> 01:31:51.149
get layered and the more trauma you've got to

01:31:51.149 --> 01:31:56.289
work through, the harder it is to get to the

01:31:56.289 --> 01:32:01.659
core of it. And so for me, I mean, you know,

01:32:01.659 --> 01:32:03.899
I kind of mentioned this at the beginning, you

01:32:03.899 --> 01:32:08.880
know, today's an anniversary of 11 years ago.

01:32:08.939 --> 01:32:11.579
I nearly died for the second time in 13 months.

01:32:13.520 --> 01:32:16.600
And it was so interesting when you, you know,

01:32:16.600 --> 01:32:18.560
because you obviously, we're on the same page,

01:32:18.560 --> 01:32:20.199
you know, we've got that whole understanding

01:32:20.199 --> 01:32:24.300
of generational trauma. We've got that same understanding

01:32:24.300 --> 01:32:27.119
of epigenetics and cell memory and all that kind

01:32:27.119 --> 01:32:33.550
of stuff. The first time I nearly died, I manifested

01:32:33.550 --> 01:32:39.529
my family situation. So there I am rolling around

01:32:39.529 --> 01:32:43.510
in agony, playing score 7 to 10 on morphine and

01:32:43.510 --> 01:32:45.970
paracetamol and everything they could chuck at

01:32:45.970 --> 01:32:54.710
me. And they left me for 24 hours in the corner

01:32:54.710 --> 01:32:57.579
of the ward. and when i begged for a doctor they

01:32:57.579 --> 01:33:06.859
said there's no doctor available so i ended up

01:33:06.859 --> 01:33:10.960
in an induced coma in intensive care you know

01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:14.340
five hour surgery nearly dying because nobody

01:33:14.340 --> 01:33:16.680
bothered to do any tests they'd forgotten about

01:33:16.680 --> 01:33:19.119
me oh hang on a minute what did that remind me

01:33:19.119 --> 01:33:26.359
of and then a year later I went in for an angiogram

01:33:26.359 --> 01:33:31.380
because I've been having these symptoms. And

01:33:31.380 --> 01:33:33.920
I attracted the exact opposite. They couldn't

01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:38.460
have done more for me. So the second time I had

01:33:38.460 --> 01:33:40.939
a stress cardiomyopathy, otherwise known as broken

01:33:40.939 --> 01:33:44.140
heart syndrome. What a surprise there. The only

01:33:44.140 --> 01:33:46.479
surprise for me was it took so long to happen,

01:33:46.619 --> 01:33:52.140
you know. With a cardiac arrest. So I think.

01:33:52.520 --> 01:33:54.460
somebody told me the survival rate even when

01:33:54.460 --> 01:33:56.739
you're in hospital of that is only about 17 to

01:33:56.739 --> 01:34:00.880
20 percent and the doctor said to me afterwards

01:34:00.880 --> 01:34:05.079
he said um all joking aside he said we struggle

01:34:05.079 --> 01:34:13.739
to bring you back because when when when my heart

01:34:13.739 --> 01:34:21.439
stopped when my heart stopped what happened um

01:34:22.119 --> 01:34:26.420
was they shot me straight off at 360. They didn't

01:34:26.420 --> 01:34:28.100
sort of like build it up at all, just straight

01:34:28.100 --> 01:34:32.020
in at 360. Nothing happened. You know, they give

01:34:32.020 --> 01:34:34.800
me the drugs, whack. Then they're doing like,

01:34:35.039 --> 01:34:36.840
I actually thought I was down for two minutes,

01:34:36.899 --> 01:34:39.579
but I found some notes the other day, I was having

01:34:39.579 --> 01:34:41.560
a clear out, and actually I was down for three

01:34:41.560 --> 01:34:44.340
minutes. And so they're doing all these chest

01:34:44.340 --> 01:34:46.460
compressions for that three minutes, and then

01:34:46.460 --> 01:34:48.800
they put more drugs in, whack me again, and got

01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:52.800
me back into sinus rhythm. And the doctor said

01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:55.800
to me, he said, you know, all joking aside, he

01:34:55.800 --> 01:34:58.880
said, we struggled to bring you back. And I remember

01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:02.140
lying in that cardiac unit. And that was 11 years

01:35:02.140 --> 01:35:06.579
ago today that that happened. And they think

01:35:06.579 --> 01:35:08.840
what happened was, you know, when you've got

01:35:08.840 --> 01:35:12.560
a stress cardiomyopathy, you know, the left ventricle

01:35:12.560 --> 01:35:16.899
isn't pumping properly. And so they think what

01:35:16.899 --> 01:35:18.260
happened was when they gave me the sedative,

01:35:18.300 --> 01:35:20.850
it just seized up. and that's when i went into

01:35:20.850 --> 01:35:25.670
cardiac arrest and um i remember thinking when

01:35:25.670 --> 01:35:27.770
the doctor said that it's probably because i

01:35:27.770 --> 01:35:31.510
didn't want to come back you know when life gets

01:35:31.510 --> 01:35:33.930
so shitty you you don't necessarily want to go

01:35:33.930 --> 01:35:35.750
and top yourself but at the same time you don't

01:35:35.750 --> 01:35:40.590
necessarily want to hang around either but those

01:35:40.590 --> 01:35:45.939
two events They were my turning point. And through

01:35:45.939 --> 01:35:49.180
a lot of deep, deep, deep therapy and getting

01:35:49.180 --> 01:35:55.260
down into my emotional vulnerability and really

01:35:55.260 --> 01:36:00.520
having a very, very good therapist recognize

01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:04.439
and acknowledge to me how much trauma I'd actually

01:36:04.439 --> 01:36:11.460
been through. That was my turning point in starting

01:36:11.460 --> 01:36:15.170
to really heal. Because I've done lots of therapy

01:36:15.170 --> 01:36:19.170
before, but I've never got underneath, underneath,

01:36:19.310 --> 01:36:20.970
underneath until, you know, we've got to get

01:36:20.970 --> 01:36:22.789
back to that original wound. If we don't get

01:36:22.789 --> 01:36:26.449
back to the original wound, then we're just dealing

01:36:26.449 --> 01:36:29.590
with events, aren't we? Well, this is what you

01:36:29.590 --> 01:36:33.569
see in, you know, fire, police, military, so

01:36:33.569 --> 01:36:35.930
many people that come on the show when they either

01:36:35.930 --> 01:36:39.710
do like a really good immersive. psychotherapy

01:36:39.710 --> 01:36:42.510
or more often than not it might be mdma -led

01:36:42.510 --> 01:36:44.689
psychotherapy or psilocybin or you know whatever

01:36:44.689 --> 01:36:48.550
these experiences are they're having the the

01:36:48.550 --> 01:36:51.569
assumption is well you were on goose green you

01:36:51.569 --> 01:36:54.970
were you know in fallujah you were at the grenfell

01:36:54.970 --> 01:36:58.430
fire and what happens more often than not almost

01:36:58.430 --> 01:37:00.850
every single time is the real trauma is from

01:37:00.850 --> 01:37:03.729
their formative years which the psychology behind

01:37:03.729 --> 01:37:06.029
why they even put the uniform on is is embedded

01:37:06.029 --> 01:37:08.949
in there too So, you know, I always call it the

01:37:08.949 --> 01:37:10.829
princess and the pea. You know, we keep adding

01:37:10.829 --> 01:37:13.010
mattresses and we've got to actually find that

01:37:13.010 --> 01:37:16.510
pea. And once you get to the initial thing that's

01:37:16.510 --> 01:37:18.569
fractured the foundation, then, yeah, of course,

01:37:18.569 --> 01:37:21.050
some of these other traumas are going to be cumulative.

01:37:21.789 --> 01:37:24.069
But, you know, if you're not getting to the origin,

01:37:24.130 --> 01:37:27.270
the nucleus of the struggle, then, you know,

01:37:27.270 --> 01:37:28.850
you're going to have these people that are frustrated.

01:37:28.989 --> 01:37:31.010
And as you said, they just give up. They're like,

01:37:31.090 --> 01:37:32.909
well, I must be crazy. You know, I'm a piece

01:37:32.909 --> 01:37:35.210
of shit. I'm just going to finish it now. Because

01:37:35.210 --> 01:37:37.590
we never looked at the whole holistic human.

01:37:37.670 --> 01:37:40.189
We just said, well, you know, you're a police

01:37:40.189 --> 01:37:42.689
officer and you were on this call and that's

01:37:42.689 --> 01:37:47.369
why you're hurting. Yeah, and I think, you know,

01:37:47.390 --> 01:37:52.229
there's been over the years, you know, how I

01:37:52.229 --> 01:37:56.609
describe it now, I've got a fantastic understanding

01:37:56.609 --> 01:37:59.869
of, I really wish I'd sat down and had a conversation

01:37:59.869 --> 01:38:05.229
with my aunt. So my father's sister. very attractive

01:38:05.229 --> 01:38:10.090
woman always immaculate and you know back in

01:38:10.090 --> 01:38:13.130
the 1960s she was a brunette you know she had

01:38:13.130 --> 01:38:15.810
that sort of short sort of that sort of perfect

01:38:15.810 --> 01:38:22.029
hair twin set and everything but I thought she

01:38:22.029 --> 01:38:31.430
was my maiden aunt and she was oh the things

01:38:31.430 --> 01:38:34.590
people said about about my aunt because she had

01:38:34.590 --> 01:38:36.970
an affair with the local jeweler in a small town

01:38:36.970 --> 01:38:40.189
where everybody gossips you know and and he was

01:38:40.189 --> 01:38:45.970
married so she ended up running away she ran

01:38:45.970 --> 01:38:49.649
away with him and they ended up together and

01:38:49.649 --> 01:38:54.390
um i only found this out when i was researching

01:38:54.390 --> 01:38:57.710
my first book and i was researching my family

01:38:57.710 --> 01:39:04.699
and i i couldn't find her death and i thought

01:39:04.699 --> 01:39:09.079
that's a bit weird and then i searched for a

01:39:09.079 --> 01:39:12.760
marriage and i discovered that my maiden aunt

01:39:12.760 --> 01:39:18.840
wasn't a maiden aunt at all she'd been married

01:39:18.840 --> 01:39:25.760
for two years i thought i've got to find out

01:39:25.760 --> 01:39:28.460
how her husband died you know he was only about

01:39:28.460 --> 01:39:32.390
27. So I sent away for the death certificate.

01:39:32.550 --> 01:39:40.010
When I got it, he had taken his own life in a

01:39:40.010 --> 01:39:43.590
very violent way. And of course, it's got the

01:39:43.590 --> 01:39:45.970
details of where it happened and all the rest

01:39:45.970 --> 01:39:50.590
of it. And this is this thing, and it's part

01:39:50.590 --> 01:39:54.270
of why I'm sharing more openly now the things

01:39:54.270 --> 01:39:56.630
that I've gone through in terms of the DV, et

01:39:56.630 --> 01:40:00.279
cetera, because... There's so much shame with

01:40:00.279 --> 01:40:03.500
it. There's shame with sexual abuse. There's

01:40:03.500 --> 01:40:06.039
shame with domestic violence. You know, you're

01:40:06.039 --> 01:40:08.439
the one that chose that person, so you feel bad

01:40:08.439 --> 01:40:10.659
about the fact that you brought that into your

01:40:10.659 --> 01:40:16.199
life. You know, you only heal from things when

01:40:16.199 --> 01:40:21.180
they're no longer secrets. So there was this

01:40:21.180 --> 01:40:23.840
secret within the family that this aunt of mine,

01:40:23.899 --> 01:40:27.079
who now I realise she was... Just completely

01:40:27.079 --> 01:40:34.239
dissociated. She never had a conversation. She'd

01:40:34.239 --> 01:40:36.159
come in, if I was ever at my grandmother's house,

01:40:36.260 --> 01:40:39.319
she would come in from work and then she would,

01:40:39.420 --> 01:40:41.520
in her little Welsh accent, she'd go, oh, hello,

01:40:41.859 --> 01:40:44.600
you know, and raise things on the Welsh accent

01:40:44.600 --> 01:40:46.560
and off she'd scoot upstairs and that would be

01:40:46.560 --> 01:40:50.659
it. She would never have a conversation. And

01:40:50.659 --> 01:40:52.840
I look back on it now and I think. when i know

01:40:52.840 --> 01:40:55.300
what i've been through and you know the irony

01:40:55.300 --> 01:40:57.880
of it you know we talk about generational trauma

01:40:57.880 --> 01:41:02.060
it's really interesting because the way that

01:41:02.060 --> 01:41:04.659
my what would have been my uncle killed himself

01:41:04.659 --> 01:41:11.779
was exactly how gary died in terms of the injury

01:41:11.779 --> 01:41:14.779
because he shot himself although gary didn't

01:41:14.779 --> 01:41:16.079
shoot himself but you know i mean he was the

01:41:16.079 --> 01:41:20.840
the way it happened and i thought at that time

01:41:21.840 --> 01:41:24.239
Gosh, if I'd known, I would have gone and seen

01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:26.600
my aunt and I would have sat down and I know

01:41:26.600 --> 01:41:28.520
that we would have had a conversation that would

01:41:28.520 --> 01:41:31.760
have been so different because I never saw her

01:41:31.760 --> 01:41:36.739
after she ran away with the guy. The family never

01:41:36.739 --> 01:41:42.220
spoke again. And that's where I think these conversations

01:41:42.220 --> 01:41:46.439
and podcasts, and that's why I do these things

01:41:46.439 --> 01:41:50.939
now is. You don't heal anything by not talking

01:41:50.939 --> 01:41:55.579
about it. I'm sure over the years that people

01:41:55.579 --> 01:41:59.039
have seen me when I've been dissociated, they

01:41:59.039 --> 01:42:01.619
thought I was all sorts of things other than

01:42:01.619 --> 01:42:07.260
what I really was. Because when you're dissociated,

01:42:07.300 --> 01:42:09.880
you can look quite cold. My aunt certainly did,

01:42:09.960 --> 01:42:17.420
but she was probably heartbroken. Yep. You know,

01:42:17.439 --> 01:42:21.960
but people see what they want to see. And I think

01:42:21.960 --> 01:42:25.880
what happened, because my familial role shifted

01:42:25.880 --> 01:42:28.260
when my sibling left home, and then I went from

01:42:28.260 --> 01:42:30.319
being the invisible child to the scapegoat. It

01:42:30.319 --> 01:42:32.420
was all my, everything was my fault. It didn't

01:42:32.420 --> 01:42:35.020
matter, even if I wasn't there, it was still

01:42:35.020 --> 01:42:42.100
my fault, you know. And I think what naturally

01:42:42.100 --> 01:42:46.020
happened, because I didn't, When I think of some

01:42:46.020 --> 01:42:47.800
of the things that have been said about me and

01:42:47.800 --> 01:42:53.640
to me back in those days, I wouldn't allow anyone

01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:57.859
to say that to me now. Those things now, I'd

01:42:57.859 --> 01:43:01.619
be like, are you kidding me? Excuse me? Do you

01:43:01.619 --> 01:43:04.699
want to rerun that? Did you really just say that?

01:43:05.220 --> 01:43:11.229
But the things that people said. And I look back

01:43:11.229 --> 01:43:13.750
on it now, having been that trained therapist,

01:43:13.789 --> 01:43:17.909
especially specialising in grief, that they were

01:43:17.909 --> 01:43:20.390
taking the anger part of their grief out on me.

01:43:24.630 --> 01:43:28.029
And because of my role play in terms of how I

01:43:28.029 --> 01:43:30.989
saw myself in the world, I just absorbed it all.

01:43:35.130 --> 01:43:39.550
Did anybody sit there and say, oh my gosh, that...

01:43:42.689 --> 01:43:46.329
That must be devastating. Did anybody, no, did

01:43:46.329 --> 01:43:49.890
anybody say to me, just sit there and grieve?

01:43:51.329 --> 01:44:00.210
Just grieve. For as long as it takes. No. And

01:44:00.210 --> 01:44:02.170
so behind me, you know, there was my mother's

01:44:02.170 --> 01:44:08.050
generation. And I know my father couldn't handle

01:44:08.050 --> 01:44:11.270
Gary's death at all. And I think part of that

01:44:11.270 --> 01:44:16.170
was because my grandfather served and came back

01:44:16.170 --> 01:44:20.170
from World War One. My father served and came

01:44:20.170 --> 01:44:23.210
back from World War Two. He came back. Well,

01:44:23.289 --> 01:44:25.529
actually, he was medicked out with tuberculosis

01:44:25.529 --> 01:44:29.630
and his brother died of it. So there's that thing

01:44:29.630 --> 01:44:31.829
where why did I survive? My brother died kind

01:44:31.829 --> 01:44:33.550
of thing. You know, he would have had to live

01:44:33.550 --> 01:44:36.689
with that. And he was in and out hospital for

01:44:36.689 --> 01:44:41.199
like seven years. And when I actually phoned

01:44:41.199 --> 01:44:43.619
my father to tell him that Gary had been killed,

01:44:43.779 --> 01:44:46.279
the first thing my dad said was, you're joking.

01:44:49.579 --> 01:44:52.600
He just said, you're joking. And I'm on the end

01:44:52.600 --> 01:44:54.260
of the phone heartbroken saying, why would I

01:44:54.260 --> 01:44:57.239
joke about that, Dad? I don't think he could

01:44:57.239 --> 01:44:59.260
absorb it. And actually, the next thing he said

01:44:59.260 --> 01:45:00.819
to me was, I'm going to have to call you back.

01:45:06.520 --> 01:45:09.560
And, you know. I think everybody that I told

01:45:09.560 --> 01:45:11.399
pretty much, apart from one friend who just said,

01:45:11.399 --> 01:45:12.939
do you want me to come? And I said, yes, please.

01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:16.680
It was, I'm going to have to call you back. It's

01:45:16.680 --> 01:45:19.520
really hard to absorb that information. But I

01:45:19.520 --> 01:45:21.399
think, you know, when I look back on it, there

01:45:21.399 --> 01:45:24.539
was two generations, weren't there, of World

01:45:24.539 --> 01:45:27.439
War I and World War II that were so close together.

01:45:28.520 --> 01:45:31.420
And I was the child of, you know, the World War

01:45:31.420 --> 01:45:35.659
II parents. So there was just... trauma after

01:45:35.659 --> 01:45:38.180
trauma after trauma in a very short space of

01:45:38.180 --> 01:45:42.420
time and what did british people do they just

01:45:42.420 --> 01:45:49.739
got on with it step up a lip yeah the idea i

01:45:49.739 --> 01:45:52.439
mean i've always thought and i always said this

01:45:52.439 --> 01:45:56.880
way before i got into studying psychology i've

01:45:56.880 --> 01:45:59.399
always thought you know you know it's for years

01:45:59.399 --> 01:46:01.439
and years and years it was a normal thing in

01:46:01.439 --> 01:46:04.829
america to go for therapy here it's like Don't

01:46:04.829 --> 01:46:07.409
suggest I need therapy. You know, you're telling

01:46:07.409 --> 01:46:08.810
me there's something wrong with you. I've got

01:46:08.810 --> 01:46:13.569
a mental illness. I mean, just go and explore.

01:46:16.609 --> 01:46:20.210
And we stigmatize it, don't we? Yeah, we do.

01:46:20.350 --> 01:46:22.170
But I think I think it's getting better. But

01:46:22.170 --> 01:46:25.369
I think we need to get past the word stigma now.

01:46:25.470 --> 01:46:27.470
And actually, because I've reframed it a lot

01:46:27.470 --> 01:46:29.550
recently is that, well, how can you optimize

01:46:29.550 --> 01:46:33.409
you as a human being? You know, it's not like,

01:46:33.409 --> 01:46:35.470
oh, let me be less sad and cry a little less.

01:46:35.529 --> 01:46:37.550
It's like, well, how can I thrive again? How

01:46:37.550 --> 01:46:40.670
can I get back on? And as you've alluded to in

01:46:40.670 --> 01:46:42.869
this whole conversation, how can I use my scars

01:46:42.869 --> 01:46:45.710
to be better, to be more empathetic, to be more

01:46:45.710 --> 01:46:48.619
resilient? I think there's a lot of hope, a lot

01:46:48.619 --> 01:46:52.939
of exciting, you know, you're 2 .0, but we've

01:46:52.939 --> 01:46:55.260
kind of got stuck here as it's very, at least

01:46:55.260 --> 01:46:57.079
in my profession, it's kind of very doom and

01:46:57.079 --> 01:46:58.840
gloom, the whole mental health conversation.

01:46:58.960 --> 01:47:01.319
And again, you want to talk about stigma, that's

01:47:01.319 --> 01:47:03.239
the overdoses. That's where they still don't

01:47:03.239 --> 01:47:05.300
want to talk about it, but it's the same exact

01:47:05.300 --> 01:47:09.569
conversation. Really understand that when you

01:47:09.569 --> 01:47:12.350
do the work, not only are you a better version

01:47:12.350 --> 01:47:14.909
of yourself, but as you said, the trauma that

01:47:14.909 --> 01:47:16.810
passed on to my child, the trauma that passed

01:47:16.810 --> 01:47:20.630
on to your children, that then we're like, okay,

01:47:20.689 --> 01:47:23.470
well, I'm fixing the dominoes that fell from

01:47:23.470 --> 01:47:27.470
World War I, World War II onto me. Now I'm turning

01:47:27.470 --> 01:47:30.569
to my children and saying, hey, here's what I

01:47:30.569 --> 01:47:33.229
know you've experienced through me, through your

01:47:33.229 --> 01:47:36.829
other parent. And so let's work on that too.

01:47:37.210 --> 01:47:40.949
you know what did i do wrong yeah and i think

01:47:40.949 --> 01:47:45.109
that's where it's very interesting actually because

01:47:45.109 --> 01:47:49.729
when i talk about that experience and when i

01:47:49.729 --> 01:47:54.449
did see my ex 30 odd years later and what i saw

01:47:54.449 --> 01:47:59.529
was an older version of the same person you know

01:47:59.529 --> 01:48:04.310
there's no acknowledgement about about you know,

01:48:04.329 --> 01:48:08.029
there's no remorse, there's no part of, there's

01:48:08.029 --> 01:48:13.310
still the same being out of touch with reality

01:48:13.310 --> 01:48:18.210
and not being able to take ownership of what

01:48:18.210 --> 01:48:20.869
happened and have an adult, which I was prepared

01:48:20.869 --> 01:48:24.010
to have. I was prepared to go, because I was

01:48:24.010 --> 01:48:26.229
facing my demons. You know, this person had been

01:48:26.229 --> 01:48:29.689
somebody in the shadows for over 30 years and

01:48:29.689 --> 01:48:35.800
I was facing my demons. Do I regret it? No. 100

01:48:35.800 --> 01:48:38.779
% because I was prepared to either get what I

01:48:38.779 --> 01:48:43.319
got and know that nothing had changed or I was

01:48:43.319 --> 01:48:46.020
prepared to get some accountability and have

01:48:46.020 --> 01:48:49.399
an adult conversation about it and be able to

01:48:49.399 --> 01:48:52.659
move forward differently. I was prepared for

01:48:52.659 --> 01:48:56.079
either. I was going to just get rid of that.

01:48:58.029 --> 01:49:00.149
that demon that was in the shadows for it not

01:49:00.149 --> 01:49:02.569
to be having any power over me anymore that's

01:49:02.569 --> 01:49:06.750
another part of healing isn't it so the interesting

01:49:06.750 --> 01:49:11.810
thing is is i think when people are still stuck

01:49:11.810 --> 01:49:16.289
oftentimes when you look at reconciliation and

01:49:16.289 --> 01:49:19.930
when you look at how you do heal intergenerational

01:49:19.930 --> 01:49:25.369
relationships you have to have accountability

01:49:25.369 --> 01:49:30.909
you know i'm a hundred percent aware of the good

01:49:30.909 --> 01:49:32.590
and the bad and the indifferent things i've done

01:49:32.590 --> 01:49:37.649
in life and anybody can come to me with anything

01:49:37.649 --> 01:49:40.189
and say i didn't like you know i didn't like

01:49:40.189 --> 01:49:42.189
it when you said or when you did and i'll say

01:49:42.189 --> 01:49:46.390
well tell me about it tell me about that tell

01:49:46.390 --> 01:49:48.329
me tell me about why you didn't like it let's

01:49:48.329 --> 01:49:50.989
let's talk it through which is kind of the person

01:49:50.989 --> 01:49:54.829
that you know that that didn't agree with war

01:49:54.829 --> 01:49:58.369
you know that that's that part of me that's always

01:49:58.369 --> 01:50:01.210
believed that you should be able to somehow talk

01:50:01.210 --> 01:50:04.649
it through but you can't do that with somebody

01:50:04.649 --> 01:50:09.989
who's determined that a you're in the wrong and

01:50:09.989 --> 01:50:13.689
they're not prepared to see or speak to who you

01:50:13.689 --> 01:50:19.449
are today you can't have a reconciliation without

01:50:19.449 --> 01:50:28.590
there being accountability on both sides So those

01:50:28.590 --> 01:50:32.689
conversations sometimes, and there are people

01:50:32.689 --> 01:50:38.770
in my life that I never want to see again. You

01:50:38.770 --> 01:50:41.470
know, one of my main perpetrators has been dead

01:50:41.470 --> 01:50:50.109
for years now. Have I forgiven him? Yeah. Does

01:50:50.109 --> 01:50:55.050
it still affect me? Some parts of it. But in

01:50:55.050 --> 01:50:59.369
the main... i've made my peace with it but if

01:50:59.369 --> 01:51:02.989
that person was alive today the only way i wouldn't

01:51:02.989 --> 01:51:04.609
be able to have a conversation with them which

01:51:04.609 --> 01:51:06.829
is how it always was when they were alive was

01:51:06.829 --> 01:51:08.470
because they would never admit what they did

01:51:08.470 --> 01:51:11.890
so that's the thing isn't it if we're going to

01:51:11.890 --> 01:51:18.250
do healing there has to be accountability absolutely

01:51:18.250 --> 01:51:21.090
i want to be mindful of your time we're almost

01:51:21.090 --> 01:51:24.920
at two hours now so Before I let you go, talk

01:51:24.920 --> 01:51:27.020
to me about the books that you've got out there

01:51:27.020 --> 01:51:29.579
and where people can find not only the books,

01:51:29.600 --> 01:51:32.640
but all the other things that you offer. Okay,

01:51:32.699 --> 01:51:35.800
so As She Danced was my first book, which I wrote

01:51:35.800 --> 01:51:42.539
in 2019. That's based on my life story from when

01:51:42.539 --> 01:51:52.270
I was born up until 1992. The Falcon's Widow

01:51:52.270 --> 01:51:55.130
is a journey through grief, so that's autobiographical.

01:51:55.689 --> 01:52:00.649
I personally would love to see more health professionals

01:52:00.649 --> 01:52:04.590
read that book because I think, again, grief

01:52:04.590 --> 01:52:06.890
is still... How many times do people go to the

01:52:06.890 --> 01:52:10.829
doctor and they're sad or they're saying they're

01:52:10.829 --> 01:52:13.390
presenting with some form of depression and the

01:52:13.390 --> 01:52:15.430
doctor doesn't even ask them, has there been

01:52:15.430 --> 01:52:19.189
a bereavement? And depression is part of the

01:52:19.189 --> 01:52:22.810
grief process. So I would love to see more professionals

01:52:22.810 --> 01:52:27.310
read that book. And that's my own personal journey

01:52:27.310 --> 01:52:29.010
through grief. So it goes through the grief stages.

01:52:29.310 --> 01:52:34.729
But it's kind of a how to do it and how not to

01:52:34.729 --> 01:52:37.289
do it because it took me so long because, you

01:52:37.289 --> 01:52:40.050
know, there was those obstacles like that psychiatrist

01:52:40.050 --> 01:52:44.470
in the way. So that book ends with me kind of

01:52:44.470 --> 01:52:46.130
getting to the point where I'm actually at a

01:52:46.130 --> 01:52:49.579
crossroads. That was written in 2021. And so,

01:52:49.579 --> 01:52:52.300
you know, I'm at this crossroads of where I'm

01:52:52.300 --> 01:52:56.039
going next in life. There's all this healing

01:52:56.039 --> 01:52:58.460
being done and this grief process with all these

01:52:58.460 --> 01:53:02.460
layers of trauma. But where next? And then the

01:53:02.460 --> 01:53:07.180
last book I published, which was published by

01:53:07.180 --> 01:53:12.699
Pen and Sword in November 2024, that's just called

01:53:12.699 --> 01:53:16.399
The Falklands Fallen. um you you kind of asked

01:53:16.399 --> 01:53:19.039
me about my journey through grief well actually

01:53:19.039 --> 01:53:23.180
that was very significant in it because i set

01:53:23.180 --> 01:53:25.520
out writing a blog and it turned into a book

01:53:25.520 --> 01:53:32.140
and that is little stories about all of the 255

01:53:32.140 --> 01:53:34.399
servicemen and three civilians that died in the

01:53:34.399 --> 01:53:40.060
falklands war and it took me seven years to research

01:53:40.060 --> 01:53:45.539
it And I was very privileged along the way to

01:53:45.539 --> 01:53:50.880
speak to siblings and children. Some of them

01:53:50.880 --> 01:53:54.239
were older, but some of them were only babies,

01:53:54.380 --> 01:53:56.760
you know, who don't even have any memories of

01:53:56.760 --> 01:54:04.119
their father. And other widows. I have two naval

01:54:04.119 --> 01:54:06.399
widows that I meet up with every now and again.

01:54:06.439 --> 01:54:08.779
We have a very long lunch and have a catch up.

01:54:11.310 --> 01:54:14.590
had the opportunity to speak to so many family

01:54:14.590 --> 01:54:16.729
members. I didn't interview every family. It

01:54:16.729 --> 01:54:19.789
was impossible to find every family. But it took

01:54:19.789 --> 01:54:22.630
seven years to research because it was just hard

01:54:22.630 --> 01:54:28.550
to get the information. Especially on, you know,

01:54:28.569 --> 01:54:31.050
like the Chinese that served with the Merchant

01:54:31.050 --> 01:54:33.149
Navy, for example. You can't always access the

01:54:33.149 --> 01:54:37.630
records. So I'm very proud of that because it's

01:54:37.630 --> 01:54:42.189
the first of its kind in military history. And

01:54:42.189 --> 01:54:45.310
I failed my history O level grade nine. So my

01:54:45.310 --> 01:54:47.810
history teacher would really be absolutely rolling

01:54:47.810 --> 01:54:49.869
around the floor laughing at the idea of me writing

01:54:49.869 --> 01:54:54.369
anything to do with anything historical. So that's

01:54:54.369 --> 01:54:58.649
my last book. And I've now got another work in

01:54:58.649 --> 01:55:04.050
progress. I'm a great fan of all the greats that

01:55:04.050 --> 01:55:09.460
we have today, like Gabor Maté. Bessel van der

01:55:09.460 --> 01:55:14.800
Kolk, Dr. Bruce Lipton. We know so much more

01:55:14.800 --> 01:55:18.220
about cell memory and trauma and everything now,

01:55:18.420 --> 01:55:22.260
but I don't know how long I'm going to be on

01:55:22.260 --> 01:55:25.819
this planet. I'm rapidly headed towards 70 now.

01:55:25.960 --> 01:55:32.899
I'll be 69 this year, so who knows? But I'm happy

01:55:32.899 --> 01:55:35.300
to still be growing and learning and healing.

01:55:36.010 --> 01:55:38.210
because let's face it it's a never -ending story

01:55:38.210 --> 01:55:41.050
you know so those books are already out there

01:55:41.050 --> 01:55:44.189
if you just put my name into you know any search

01:55:44.189 --> 01:55:47.789
engine you'll find those books the the last one

01:55:47.789 --> 01:55:51.390
though um i donated all the all of the royalties

01:55:51.390 --> 01:55:55.510
to a charity so i specifically didn't want to

01:55:55.510 --> 01:55:59.229
earn anything from that book and then i've got

01:55:59.229 --> 01:56:03.810
a website jmorganhirons .com and i now kind of

01:56:03.810 --> 01:56:05.970
spend a lot of time walking in nature, going

01:56:05.970 --> 01:56:10.189
to the gym. We haven't gone there, but that's

01:56:10.189 --> 01:56:12.829
okay. I was a competitive bodybuilder at one

01:56:12.829 --> 01:56:15.949
point, and that actually saved my life, literally.

01:56:17.189 --> 01:56:20.810
And now I spend a lot of time in the gym, and

01:56:20.810 --> 01:56:27.890
I do some public speaking, and I write, and I'm

01:56:27.890 --> 01:56:33.010
trying to get a balance in life. Because as you

01:56:33.010 --> 01:56:36.210
know, you can live life at 100 miles an hour

01:56:36.210 --> 01:56:40.250
when you're trying to get away from pain. So

01:56:40.250 --> 01:56:42.550
I'm not that person anymore. So, you know, life

01:56:42.550 --> 01:56:47.550
is, it's got a lot more balance to it now. And

01:56:47.550 --> 01:56:50.289
I share my story. And thank you for having me

01:56:50.289 --> 01:56:54.229
on, James, because I spoke to a friend about

01:56:54.229 --> 01:56:58.109
whether I should be open about. that that whole

01:56:58.109 --> 01:56:59.989
reason why i disappeared to london because people

01:56:59.989 --> 01:57:01.949
often ask me oh how long you've been in london

01:57:01.949 --> 01:57:05.109
and why did you move there and of course historically

01:57:05.109 --> 01:57:07.350
i've not really told the truth about it so it's

01:57:07.350 --> 01:57:09.310
been good to be able to actually voice it today

01:57:09.310 --> 01:57:14.529
well i want to thank you i mean as we talked

01:57:14.529 --> 01:57:16.970
about before the storytelling element coupled

01:57:16.970 --> 01:57:18.869
with obviously psychology and all these other

01:57:18.869 --> 01:57:21.729
things that people bring onto the show you know

01:57:21.729 --> 01:57:25.060
it's it's what pulls people in it's what lets

01:57:25.060 --> 01:57:27.340
them say well that's me you know they might be

01:57:27.340 --> 01:57:30.659
in deep in the middle of a domestic um sort of

01:57:30.659 --> 01:57:32.659
violent you know relationship at the moment that

01:57:32.659 --> 01:57:34.520
might be all they needed to hear to find the

01:57:34.520 --> 01:57:36.939
courage to to get out you know it might be someone

01:57:36.939 --> 01:57:38.460
who's dealing with grief at the moment it might

01:57:38.460 --> 01:57:40.300
be a first responder understanding that there

01:57:40.300 --> 01:57:43.760
are layers to their trauma So these conversations

01:57:43.760 --> 01:57:46.180
are so important and I'm humbled by the fact

01:57:46.180 --> 01:57:48.859
that you, you know, went to that, that second

01:57:48.859 --> 01:57:51.199
relationship and, you know, trusted me enough

01:57:51.199 --> 01:57:53.420
to talk about that today. So I want to thank

01:57:53.420 --> 01:57:55.739
you so, so much for being so generous with your

01:57:55.739 --> 01:57:57.699
time and come on the Behind the Shield podcast

01:57:57.699 --> 01:58:01.119
today. Oh, you're very welcome. It's been, it's

01:58:01.119 --> 01:58:02.899
been a pleasure and thank you for having me.