Welcome to the Pioneer Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Geering, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show author,
bodybuilder, and grief counselor, Jay Morgan
Hirons. Now in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics from her early life in England,
meeting her soulmate Gary, his deployment to
the Falkland Islands, becoming a war widow, her
powerful grief story, her near -death experiences,
catharsis through fitness, using her grief journey
to help others, writing, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
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So with that being said, I introduce to you Jay...
Morgan Hirons. Enjoy. Well, Jay, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Stu
Henderson for making this connection, even though
it was a long time ago now. We were just struggling
to remember who it was, or I was at least, before
we hit record. So thank you, Stu. And secondly,
I want to welcome you to the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you for having me on, James.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? I'm in London, where I've been for
over 30 years now. Whereabouts in London? I used
to live in North London when I was there. I'm
in the East. I'm in East London. So I think we'll
come to why I ended up here a little bit further
down the line. Brilliant. Well, speaking of the
line then, let's start at the very beginning.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Right. It's interesting,
actually, because I've taken a lot of time in
therapy to be able to say some of these things
out loud. Now, where I was born is very simple.
I was born in a little town called Crickhowell,
which is not far from Brecon in Wales. And we
lived in Brecon. So I thought when I was a child,
I actually thought until I was 13 years of age
that I was the youngest of three children. But
I wasn't. So it's hard when you're a child to
kind of understand the dynamic of what's going
on around you. But I can say it out loud now.
I was, as many third or later siblings, I was
the invisible child in a narcissistic family.
I grew up sort of just standing there watching
all this chaos going on around me. And I described
my home in the books that I've written. I described
my home as a menagerie because that's what it
felt like. You know, I was this little kid that
was just watching all this chaos going on. And
on the surface, my mum and dad were just kind
of like these ordinary people. You know, dad
was an electronic engineer and my mum was a secretary.
But there was so... much other stuff going on
in the background that it's interesting now that
i'm older and i when i wrote my first book i
found out a lot about my family and i think when
you're going to heal you you have to understand
if you're part of a dysfunctional family you
need to understand where their trauma comes from
otherwise you can't heal you can't forgive you
can't move on You can sit there and you can blame
anybody and everybody for what goes wrong in
your life, but that doesn't get you to a place
of healing. So I have literally, I think you
might be able to see here, I've got a scar on
my forehead. And that's one of my very first
memories. I was three when I went to school.
I was kind of like a year ahead all the way through
school. So I was running down the school steps.
fell and gashed my head on the side of the concrete
step. And so the reason I've still got a scar
there is because nobody took me to get it stitched,
you know, it was just kind of left to do its
own thing. So my first memory in that school
was this little wash basin absolutely full of
blood. because anything on the head, as you're
going to be aware of, bleeds a lot. If you cut
anything on your head, you know, it's like World
War III is going on. And so that's one of my
first memories. And I literally only have about
three memories prior to the age of about eight,
seven or eight. I've learnt along the way that
my mother had a breakdown and she was hospitalised.
There were all sorts of things that were going
on. And it's interesting because in a narcissistic
family, there is always the golden child, the
scapegoat, the invisible child, if there's enough
siblings, you know. So my oldest sibling was
the golden child. They could do no wrong. They
literally could do no wrong. No matter how awful
it was, it was never wrong. And then there was
another sibling who was, at the time, the family
scapegoat. And they were always in trouble. And
the story was at the time that we had to move
because they were going to be expelled from school.
That was the story that was spun. But in actual
fact, I think probably nearer to the truth was
that my dad's affairs, which that's too much
in a small town, you know, and moving kind of
gave us a fresh start in inverted commas. And
of course, behavior didn't change. So we then
moved to Devon when I was nine and spent four
years there. And that's when I that's when my
real memories really are brighter and brighter
of how bad things were at home. You know, and
there was constant rows and constant chaos again.
But it was more. seated in my memory banks from
that time and there are things like you know
i remember my father losing his temper and he
used to sit in his chair and he'd throw things
at the wall so this wall Had all these different
stains on it from where he would throw whatever
was in his hand at the time, you know. And from
when I got married later on, one of the favorite
colors in army quarters was this horrible pale
green. They call it O'Daniel, you know. And I
hated that color. I hated that color with a vengeance
because of what it reminded me of, you know.
And so there was all these, I think he painted
over it before we sold the house. But that was
just a standard thing. And then. There was one
episode I remember where my dad just completely
lost it one day and he picked up the coal scuttle,
threw it all over the floor. So you can imagine
the mess that that made. And as he did it, he
literally kicked my mother up the backside out
of the room. You know, and so I was this little
kid that was just watching this going on. And
it's only been recently and sort of through going
through therapy that. you you sort of start to
realize how much being the invisible child actually
did affect you because nobody was ever concerned
about how anything affected me it was all how
everything affected everybody else so for example
when i was 11 my elder sibling and again the
story goes but you know as well as i do stories
either add up or they don't And you might swallow
it whole at the time, but later on you might
think, hang on a minute, that doesn't quite add
up. So the story was that my elder sibling had
actually been coming back on a train and that
he had fallen asleep and that he'd kind of woken
up. And instead of pulling into it, he thought
the train was pulling into the station. but it
was actually pulling out of the station so it
was gathering speed and so he jumped off the
train now all these years later i think well
even if you've been asleep why would you why
would you exit a moving moving train you know
unless you're absolutely paralytic drunk or something
you know it kind of is a story that as i'm older
it doesn't make sense what would make sense is
if he jumped off that train intentionally And
the result of that, and I remember coming down
the stairs and I overheard my parents talking
and I heard them say, no, no, no, we'll tell
her in the morning. And he was in a coma for
quite some time and they weren't sure whether,
and of course being the golden child, it would
be the end of the world if anything happened
to this person. And then... He wasn't really,
I mean, I can laugh about it now, but it wasn't
very funny at the time. So he wasn't a very nice
person before this accident. So you can imagine
he's had a traumatic brain injury. His personality
just got worse. It was like everything that he
was before was just exaggerated. And I was on
the end of a lot of the abuse. So that was...
kind of what happened with him when i was 11
and then another sibling took an overdose at
school and so i have an early memory of walking
them you know i don't even know where my father
was i have no idea he certainly wasn't at home
but i have this memory of my mother telling me
we have to walk them up and down the lounge and
the doctor has said we've got to keep them awake
And we've got to keep putting coffee down them.
And, you know, bearing in mind, this was back
in the 1960s. So, you know, whatever it was,
I think it may have been deemed that they hadn't
have taken enough to go to hospital. But, you
know, it could be dangerous if they fell asleep,
you know, and it was keep them awake until midnight.
And I'm 11 years old. So just in that one year,
those two traumatic incidents have happened to
my siblings. and not one person's actually asked
me how i'm doing you know and that that's the
year that you know i'm i'm about to go to grammar
school and so that's another story on its own
so blending into the background i kind of learned
that the easiest way to deal with life was to
just be quiet and to just like watch it all going
on but to just make myself as invisible as possible
and after we moved I think when I look back on
it now, probably what happened was I poured all
my energy into schoolwork because I quite enjoyed
school. School was somewhere where there was
a structure. You know, in a primary school in
England, in Devon particularly, back in the 1960s,
you know, it was quite structured. And there
I am sort of, you know, getting to the time where
I'm in my last year of primary school. And I
go to get my school report and I'm just standing
there thinking, I just better say nothing here
because this can't possibly be right. Because
it said, there were two groups, so it said number
one, so first, in group one. So I come top of
the class. And I just thought, I better not say
anything because I'm going to get into trouble.
Because our head was our school teacher. I thought
if he realizes he made a mistake and put me in
the wrong place he's going to be so upset you
know and that's what happens when you're the
invisible child you're always there worried about
speaking out or you know bringing attention on
yourself so it turned out actually I had come
top of the class and you know and so I was very
unpopular because there was a boy in the class
who all the way through primary school until
I'd moved down to Devon he's always been top
of the class so i not not only did i beat him
i was a girl i mean that was just horrendous
um and then there was an opening evening and
i i remember my parents being asked if they wanted
me to stay back for a year because i was a year
ahead all the way through school and the head
said well it may be relevant to your decision
but she's actually come third in the county and
her in the 11 plus so you know you might want
to consider that so there's these parents who
really should have been guiding me and they actually
stand there and say well what do you want to
do and so i ended up just saying well all my
friends are in this class i won't know anybody
if i stay back a year And so, you know, there
was never any guidance or anybody making parental
decisions in effect. And then I kind of got to
secondary school and I'd already been sort of
bullied for being a redhead, you know, the smallest
in the school, Welsh accent and all that kind
of thing. And then when I got to secondary school.
I was still the smallest in the school. I got
rid of the Welsh accent, so that was a bit better.
And then the bullying just continued. And all
my dad used to say to me was, ignore them, they're
jealous of you, which was really unhelpful. It
didn't actually help me in any way, shape or
form. I get into the third year and I'm starting
to really struggle at school by then. And I've
gone from being top of the class to really not
doing very well at all, but nobody's really noticing
this. And my middle sibling left home. So the
family dynamic then shifted. They had been the
scapegoat because they were always acting out
and they were always in trouble. And then the
family dynamic shifted, so I became the scapegoat.
And suddenly I can't be invisible anymore because
everything's my fault. And I have this memory
of being about 12 where the rows were so bad
that my dad would pack a case. This is kind of
when I was in the shift from the invisible child
into the scapegoat. And I'd be stood at the bottom
of our driveway and he would throw his cases
in the car to go to work. And he'd say, that's
it, I'm going, I'm not coming home. And this
was like a regular occurrence. So you never knew
whether he was coming back from work that night
or whether you were ever going to see him again.
You know, it was pretty horrendous. Long story
short, one of the main reasons that we moved
again was because my dad got caught having yet
another affair. One of my siblings had walked
into a pub that they shouldn't have been in because
they were too young to be there anyway and got
the shock of their life when they think they're
going for a sneaky drink, you know, underage,
and actually they walk in and see my dad there
with another woman. So, I mean, all hell broke
loose. And we ended up moving again. There was
no, there was never any thought about what was
to give stability, you know, what should be done.
It was just, okay, well, this is where we're
going to go. And so we moved again, then we moved
to Somerset. You know, there I am, puberty, teenage
years. I realise now I haven't been diagnosed,
but I mean, it's pretty obvious that, you know,
that. adhd was part of the picture as well so
i'm flunking out you know everything's going
wrong there's absolutely nobody and it was at
that point when we moved that i started to get
visits into my bedroom in the middle of the night
from the golden child and you know i was asleep
so i i kind of i thought initially i was having
these dreams i actually thought I was imagining
things. And that went on for four years until
one night I woke up. I think I must have been
becoming aware of something going on that wasn't
a dream. I used to sleep very heavily, but I
woke up. You know that thing where if a carpet
and a door, if the door's not high enough over
the carpet, you can hear the door close over
the top of the carpet? Yeah. I heard that happening,
somebody leaving my room at like three o 'clock
in the morning. And I called out, who's there?
Obviously no answer. And so I ended up going
and buying myself a bedside lamp. So when I became
aware of this happening again, what I did was
I very quietly reached out and I flicked the
light on. And he must have realized by then that
actually he was going to get caught because I
was not sleeping so heavily. So he must have
realized he needed to be a bit more careful.
And I won't go into what I discovered him doing,
but he was doing something in my room that he
shouldn't have been doing. Let's just say that.
And his pretense was that he'd come to get something
out of my wardrobe at three o 'clock in the morning
in the dark. You know, go figure. So the response
to me trying to actually voice that was, I must
have imagined it. The response when I actually
caught him was, well, he was just coming in there
to get a book. In the dark, in the middle of
the night, three o 'clock in the morning. OK,
right. And that is the kind of dysfunction that
you're dealing with. And I think. This is something
that when I talk about that side of my life now,
I always say that the thing that makes what happened
to you a hundred times worse is somebody pretending
that it didn't. If somebody denies they did it,
denies it happened, that makes it 100 times worse.
Because you've already got your reality screwed
with because something's going on that shouldn't
be happening to you anyway. You're already being
betrayed by people who should care for you. So
the minute they turn around and they say, you're
imagining it, that didn't happen. That just multiplies
it by about 100. And I've spoken to different
people over the years and they kind of all have
the same experience with that one. You know,
it's hard enough dealing with any of these things
as they are because they are a huge betrayal.
But when somebody is pretending they didn't do
it. And here's the thing, you know, I know a
guy that's a forensic psychiatrist. And so his
job literally is to decide on whether you're
mad, bad or both. And he, you know, we've had.
conversations about this and he says you know
you wouldn't believe some of the excuses that
these perpetrators come up with to absolve themselves
from actually committing a crime they will do
anything but say yeah hands up i did it so that
that was a pretty horrendous time in my life
and then um after one sort of failed attempt
that i've written about in my first book but
you know i'm not going to go into here because
it's it is what it is but i did try and get away
once and then i got a job and there was a guy
at work and he said um we need a new flatmate
and i said we he said well me we were three bedroom
flat in town you know we're looking for a new
flat maybe somebody's left and immediately i
i just said how much is the rent and i was i
was like can you help me move and so literally
i planned it all quietly and then he came and
we packed all my clothes into black bin liners
and took them on the bus which was like once
an hour because we lived in a village you know
and um and i left a note on the kitchen table
and i said i've left i'll be in touch and that
was how i left home what age was this 17. i was
17. and then i moved I mean, I shared a flat
with two guys. I mean, they didn't even know
what housework was, you know. And the main thing
was as well is they liked to party. So, you know,
you'd be dragged out of bed at 11 o 'clock at
night because they'd have friends coming round.
So I stayed there a while. And then somebody
I worked with, again, I'd moved jobs and somebody
I worked with, she said, oh, my housemate's moving.
She said, you know, would you be interested?
And again, how much is the rent? Where is it?
Most importantly, I would have my own lounge,
my own kitchen, my own bedroom. And the only
thing that I would share would be the bathroom.
I was like, great, I'm there. And that's where
I was living when I met my husband. So talk to
me about Gary then. Oh, where do I start? I have
told this story before and I think it's quite
funny actually, you know, that I used to work
for the MOD in a full -time role. So I worked
in a pay office. I just did data input, a very
boring job. But to make up some extra money,
because it wasn't easy, you know, paying my own
way in the world, and to make some extra money,
I... worked in what I call a little old man's
pub around the corner from where I lived, which
is perfect because I could literally just walk
around the corner, go and do a few hours and
come home. And the only time it was busy is if
they had like a disco in the Skittle Alley. And
one night, I'm there on a Monday night, bored
out my brain, and these two young guys walk in,
which was a bit unusual. So he comes up. The
first thing he ever said to me was two pints
of lager and lime love and one for yourself.
So long story short, they kind of asked me if
I'd join them for a drink. And I fancied his
friend because Gary was very handsome. I'm not
going to deny he was very handsome. He just wasn't
my type. So I suppose the line is, oh, can I
finish early tonight? I thought, OK, this looks
like it could be a laugh, you know. His friend
was really off with me. And I thought, OK, whatever.
But Gary had me cracked up. And if you ask most
women, what do you find the most attractive thing
in a man, they'll say, if he can make me laugh.
You know, I find the sense of humour attractive.
And Gary was a character. He really was. I mean,
you know, it's not many people that you'll meet
that virtually nobody dislikes them. You know,
I've actually never met anyone that didn't like
him. So, unbeknownst to me, him and his best
friend, and it was Gary's 19th birthday that
night, and him and his best friend had a deal.
If they fancied the same girl, they would toss
a coin. And whoever won the toss of the coin
could chat her up. And so that they would never
fall out over a girl. Even if she wasn't interested,
the one that had lost was not allowed to smooth
in. That was their deal. So when he first, after
we got married and he first introduced me to
people, they'd say, oh, so how did you two meet?
And he'd say, I want her on the toss of a coin.
And then people would look to me and say, well,
come on then, how did you really meet? And I
say, well, he won me on the toss of a coin. And
they most of the time go off shaking their heads
like, well, this is ridiculous, you know, whatever.
But yeah, so that's how we met. You know, it
was his 19th birthday and they'd asked sort of
where they could go. And I sort of said, well,
there's going to be nowhere. It's a school night.
You know, I told them a couple of pubs in town,
but of course, because he fancied me, he didn't
want to go anywhere. And, you know, I look back
on it now and you would never do something like
that in this day and age. But I don't know what
it was. Something about him from day one, I just
felt safe. So I invited them back to my place,
got a few beers. And this is the funniest bit
of the story, because... We'd been there a little
while. His friend was driving. And Gary says
to me, oh, can I use your loo? I said, yeah,
of course you can. So his mate pops up at the
same time. Oh, yeah, can I? And I said, well,
there's one down. He says, there's one up. He
says, off you go sort of thing. And when Gary
came back, we sat there. After a couple of minutes,
I said, is your friend all right? And he gave
me this really cheeky grin. And he said, yeah,
he's gone home. And I just looked at him. We
all know where he hoped that was going. And I
sat there and I said to him, so how are you getting
home? And he again gave me this cheeky grin and
said, well, I was kind of hoping I wasn't. And
I said, well, you've got two choices. I said,
there's a mattress in the hallway. I can make
up a bed in the lounge for you. Or you can walk
home and take your choice. And home was like
his parents' house, 10 miles away. And I said,
but either way, my bedroom door will be locked
if you're going to stay, so it's up to you. And
he just looked at me and went, no, it's all right,
I'll walk home. And of course, I didn't realise
at the time. I worked with the pay corps. I mean,
you can imagine. I didn't realise how fit paratroopers
were. You know, 10 miles after a couple of beers,
there's nothing to him. So off he tootled. But
on the doorstep, as he was leaving, he swung
around and he said to me, they were on R &R from
Northern Ireland. So he swung around and he said
to me, when I get back from Northern Ireland,
will you be my girlfriend? And I just looked
at him and went, okay. And it really was. So,
you know, there was a... peck on the cheek there
was no real it was just off he went into the
sunset and of course back in those days i didn't
have a landline i had no idea where all i knew
was he was in northern ireland i didn't know
where that was it and i didn't hear from him
for six weeks and he rocked up on my doorstep
at one o 'clock in the morning and said i've
been everywhere looking for you tonight you don't
work at the pub anymore and i've been you know
here there and everywhere trying to find you
and i said well i was out i'm here now didn't
even invite him in and he said will you go out
with me tomorrow night i said okay what time
and off he went and that was our first date the
following night which uh paratroop was he part
of he was with the second battalion okay so what
Going back to his service then, what would he
talk about as far as experiences in Northern
Ireland? I've just actually remembered one thing
that he told me. He said it broke his heart.
Gary had a younger sister who was much younger
than him. He said to me when they were on patrols
one day, he saw this little girl. who reminded
him of his sister. She was very pretty, blonde,
you know. He went up and said hello to her because
she reminded him of his sister. And she just
looked at him and said, he's about five years
old, and said, fuck off, you British soldier.
This is like a five -year -old. And he said,
what was so upsetting was that, you know, such
foul language was coming out of this little kid
that looked like an angel. But other than that,
he didn't really, I mean, I learned after we
got married, we used to play tricks on each other
a lot. And there was one time that I was hiding
and I jumped out on him and he literally pulled
his fist back to deck me. Just a reaction. I
mean, he stopped himself before anything happened.
Very, very fast. And I did see him once the car
backfired, you know, just hit the deck. So there
were reactions there, but he didn't talk, no,
he didn't talk about it. It just, I've had people
on, you know, that were young Irish and in Belfast
at the time I've had, you know, Paris, I've had
SAS, I've had all these different people on.
And it's just such a, an awful situation, you
know, that we know the backstories of, you know,
of how a lot of this led to that point, but to
put these young men, you know, on both sides
in these positions. And then obviously when people
start getting killed, it just perpetuates that,
perpetuates that hate. And then you have, as
you allude to, you've got children on both sides
having this completely blinkered view of what
this other group of people should be doing. And
then in Ireland itself, you've got people of
the same religion killing each other. I mean,
it's just, I think there's so much to be learned
from that conflict. And I personally think that
Ireland should be back to Ireland again. I just
don't understand why that still even exists anymore.
But yeah, I mean, there's so many lessons in
history. I think Northern Ireland is a glaring
one, which ironically now, Ireland is being such
a big voice for what's going on in Gaza, and
rightly so. Yeah, and I mean, the only time,
I mean, I was married for nearly five years.
And the only time that I actually ever heard
or saw my husband completely out of control was
during his second tour of Ireland. and it was
after warren point happened and i stayed in england
i i actually was in a quarter where there was
no phone so my neighbor came flying through the
door and just said go and get the phone and you
never know what's going to be on the end of it
and gary was completely incoherent you know it
was the bastards and it was just it took like
a couple of minutes for me to understand that
a bomb had gone off and there'd been a lot of
death and and how horrendous it actually was.
He was one of the most upbeat people you'd ever
meet. He was the one that could always cheer
everybody up. If you ask anybody about his personality,
he was always the one that could cheer anybody
up and he was always very, very upbeat as a person.
But the day that Warren Point happened, he was
completely out of control. I've never heard so
much emotion and lack of control in what he was
saying and in his voice. And it was hard because
I was the other side of the water. What you want
to do is put your arms around somebody. What
you want to do is hold them because that's all
you can do. You can't change what's just happened.
And you're not there. And that's the nature of
them being on operations, you know. So, yeah,
in the five years we were married, you know,
I met him when he was on R &R for one tour of
Ireland. And then later we did another 18 -month
tour. And second to Goose Green, that was the
biggest loss of paratroopers. that Tupac had.
And I think that's why Goose Green hit a lot
of Tupac so hard, because they had such a big
hit in 1979 with Warren Point. And then the Falklands
was only three years later. Walk me through that
then. So, you know, talk to me about how he even
found himself in a position to be deployed. And
then let's talk about the declaration of war
through your eyes, and then we'll get to Goose
Green. I remember Gary coming home and just saying,
we're going to war. And at that point, most people
hadn't even got a clue where the Falklands were.
I mean, most of the guys thought it was somewhere
off Scotland, you know. And they were kind of
buzzing. I think for a lot of the guys, if you
were to speak to a lot of the two para -guys
back from that time, when you're in Northern
Ireland, you were fighting an unseen enemy. So
when you were in, for example, Warren Point was
a remote -controlled bomb. The enemy's unseen.
You never know where it's going to hit. You never
know where it is. so the opportunity for them
to actually go into a proper war situation for
a lot of the guys that were of his age younger
and slightly older first time they had any opportunity
to go and do what they've been trained to do
and actually have a fair fight as in you know
where the enemy is you know what you're going
to do and and this is what soldiering is about
and he couldn't wait i mean i wanted to throttle
him You know, he was so excited, he couldn't
wait to go. But it's what you sign up for. When
you marry somebody in the military, you just
don't know if or when or ever there's going to
be a war anyway. And it was, I think the Falklands
was very, well, it wasn't to the people in the
background, but, you know, to us it was all very
unexpected and it just sort of seemed to come
out of nowhere. And then there was this flurry
of activity because it was only invaded on the
2nd of April and they were gone. I mean, the
three para were the spearhead battalion. So Gary
shouldn't have gone. The two para weren't supposed
to go, but Colonel H decided he wanted to go
and he wanted his boys to go and he got his own
way because he was very good at that. So they
all wanted to go. But because 3 Para was the
spearhead battalion, they were kind of gone on
the 9th of April. I mean, everything was turned
around so fast. If you imagine, it's invaded
on the 2nd and by the 9th, they've refitted the
Canberra and they've got a whole battalion of
paratroopers on there and Marines and whoever
else. And, you know, all these troops are off
to retake these islands within a week. So everything
happened very, very fast. And so, I mean, two
para went down on this roll -on, roll -off ferry.
You know, they went on the MV Norland, so they
didn't have quite such a luxury, you know, ride.
But, you know, the camaraderie and everything,
it was, I think it's a time, we call it the class
of 82, and I think it's a time that everybody
from that era, and there's never going to be
another war like it. you know it was the last
analog war for it was it's kind of unique in
its its own right but before they left they kind
of went to go and then the ship wasn't ready
and so he went literally with phil kitt said
goodbye and then came home again so it was the
third day that finally it's like you really going
today um and Because of my family situation and
him knowing that I wouldn't have any support,
he was adamant I wasn't going. He said, you're
not coming to see me off. We say our goodbye
at home because I cannot have my last vision
of you. There's interesting words, you know,
because it was his last vision of me. I can't
have my last vision of you in tears on a dockside.
And I know you've got to go home on your own.
I'm not doing that. So we said our goodbye at
home. And to this day, that's still gut -wrenching.
We kind of had a pact that we never said goodbye.
We said, Tala, I'll see you later. And he said
goodbye that day. and i went back to bed and
saw myself back to sleep again you know because
he left very early morning and nobody could tell
me you know i worked with people who kept saying
why are you so stressed out and i'd be sitting
there thinking well if your husband right we're
back You know, I'd be sitting there thinking
to myself, well, if your husband was going, you
know, gone to war, these were always people their
husbands weren't, you know, as part of that task
force. You know exactly why I've got so much
anxiety about it. But nobody could tell me, you
know, even though they hadn't landed and it took
four weeks to get there, nobody could tell me
he was coming back. I just knew. And there is
actually nothing that prepares you for that knock
on the door. I didn't really have much knowledge
of that because the letters that I got were mainly
from the ship. And they were censored as to what
they could say anyway. So I would get letters.
And for Gary, because Gary was a huge Jacques
Cousteau fan. So for Gary, being at sea. and
seeing everything he was like in his element
you know and he was he would write oh i saw flying
fish today and dolphins and you know so i think
in the main he tried to keep things upbeat but
also they they were sensitive to what they could
say about where they were anyway so i didn't
really have any knowledge i mean i i was given
some photos after the event of him on sussex
mountain And I have sat down and I've, because
there's been so many, I mean, it's really, I
don't think people when they're telling war stories
ever think about what it's like for the families.
And there've been so many things I've been told
over the years. You know, one guy even said to
me that Gary's last words, bearing in mind I'd
been told he was killed instantaneously. So it's
not like he was lingering for an hour, you know,
to have a conversation, you know. One guy, I
know he was only trying to make me feel better,
but he said to me that I was one of the last,
like my name was one of the last things he said.
And in my head I'm thinking, the last thing that
would have been on my husband's mind when he
was in the middle of a battle would be me. Not
because he didn't love me, but because he'd been
doing his job, you know. Yeah, you kind of know.
You just think there's no way that's, even if
he had a butt of any words, that that would have
been any of them, you know? But then there's
these other war stories that people tell. And
there's certain times of the year now, and I'll
talk a bit more about it later, but, you know,
I do live with complex PTSD. I'm very protective
of my mental health these days. I live on a pretty
even keel most of the time now, you know, but
there are times of the year that I just don't
go on social media unless it's Instagram, because
that's different, you know, and I might put my
fitness stuff on Instagram or whatever. But that
time of year and some of the things that you
read and see, they're just horrendous and it's
relentless. So I don't think many of the guys
when they're telling war stories ever think about
the effect that that actually has on families
when they've got to read it. For the guys, I'm
very proud that he was a part of a task force
that did such an incredible job. And I think
we've all got to die at some point. The man that
I knew might have only been 24 when he died,
but my God, he crammed a lot into those years.
He'd done more at the age of 24 than a lot of
people have done by the time they're 74 or 84.
I took a long time to come to terms with what
had happened because ultimately, and I can talk
about it openly now. And I wrote about my emotional
journey in my second book, The Falcon's Widow,
which my grief process was really interrupted
by a few things. But when we got married, when
we met, he was a Methodist and I was agnostic
at the time. I didn't quite know what I believed
in. And I'm a pacifist and he was a soldier.
So at the grand old age of 19, we decided that
we would never talk about politics and never
talk about religion and respect each other's
differences. Which was incredibly mature. Can't
say we were as mature in everything, but we certainly
were in that. And we never did. But deep down
in my heart, I had a lot of work to do around
that eventually because he got killed doing the
one thing I don't believe in. But I signed up
for it. I married him when he was, it wasn't
like he went and joined the army after we met.
I signed up for being married to somebody who
was doing that for a living. You know, so there
was a lot of ambivalence for me around that.
So, and he was killed on Goose Green, have I
got that right? Yeah. So back to kind of, you
know, through your lens again now, how did you
originally hear and this kind of walk through
your initial grief journey? So he died on the
Friday. And on the Saturday afternoon, I was
sat outside and I always remember it was a baking
hot day. It's a beautiful, beautiful day. And
one of the wives, it was like a little park area
outside the flats. And one of the wives came
out of her army quarter hysterically screaming,
they're dead, they're dead, they're all dead.
And the irony of this is I went over and calmed
her down. And I said, what do you mean they're
all dead? And you've got this stinking feeling
in the pit of your stomach. And she was a sergeant's
wife and she'd heard from one of the officers'
wives that H had been killed. The news had come
through sun rays down. So the logical thought
process was, which was, you know, a fair logical
thought process, that if the CO is dead, who's
not supposed to be in the front line? Then the
whole battalion has gone down, bearing in mind
they're at war. So we don't know how many casualties
they're going to be or how big the battle is.
And I calmed her down and said, look, you know,
you don't know that. You just have to wait for
news. And then I went and sat down. And the person
who was with me. said it'll be okay and i said
you don't understand it's not okay and i burst
into tears and he'd already been dead over 24
hours so the following morning i'd gone to the
loo and i got back into bed and i had my dressing
gown on and i just couldn't get warm i was just
shivering in a baking hot day and i was just
shivering And the doorbell went. Well, nobody
rings your doorbell at 8 o 'clock on a Sunday
morning. And I remember through this process
of lying there thinking, if I just lie here quietly,
they'll go away. Because you don't want to hear
it. And then the next thought that came into
my head was, Well, that's a bit stupid because
they're only going to come back and they're going
to know you're in anyway. Where else are you
going to be on a Sunday morning, you know? And
I got up and I answered the door. And again,
I've written about this and I've spoken about
it before, but I'd had this dream for the last
two or three years before he died. And in this
dream, all I could see, you know, as we're talking
now, we can see each other and we can see the
background. So I can see your background, you
can see mine. So in a normal dream, you can see
backgrounds. And in this dream, I couldn't see
any background. It's just like a tunnel. It was
really weird. But there would just be an officer
at the door giving me this news. And sometimes
he would be in uniform. And that's how I knew,
you know, the pips on the shoulder. I knew it
was an officer. And other times he would be in
civilian clothes. And this recurrent dream happened
for a couple of years. And in the five years
I was married, it was the only thing I couldn't
tell my husband. You know, we had that kind of
marriage where there's nothing. I can still surprise
people that knew him back in the day. with things
that they wouldn't know about him I mean I had
a conversation with his best friend from school
not long ago and I said did he never tell you
that and he said no you know so there was nothing
we couldn't talk about but I couldn't tell him
that and so I opened the door and of course they
don't want to tell you on the doorstep they want
to come in and And I remember literally backing
up along the hallway and I just about got into
the lounge when they broke the news. And the
rest. And the irony of that whole situation the
day before was the person they went to get initially
was... The woman who I'd been calming down the
day before and her husband was fine. And I think
that was the worst day of my life. I don't think
there's ever a time that that can't be painful.
Because aside from my feelings, aside from losing
somebody that you love, there is somebody's life
just cut short. You know, he's 24 years old,
he's got everything in front of him, and then
suddenly it's gone. That said... I don't think
Gary would have coped very well if he'd been
badly injured. You know, it was just fate. It
happened the way it did. But he wasn't the kind
of person that, you know, you know that thing
where we look at quality of life. What is your
quality of life? And for some people, their quality
of life, they don't have to have much going on
in their life to be just getting by. he wasn't
one of those people you know he was a footballer
very good footballer you know he he was always
very active very he was a doer in life so the
person that i knew would have been much better
going out in a blazer glory than they would have
coped with with being injured and there's no
disrespect to him i just don't think he had the
resilience to have been able to do what i see
some of the veterans do today but who knows you
know that's an unknown so before we hit record
you you'd mentioned about you know meeting someone
else later so walk me through you know just processing
this entire thing the grief and let's kind of
lead into that because obviously it's a very
poignant poignant conversation needs to be had
as well yeah and it and it's something that i've
only just began to really acknowledge publicly
i kind of wrote about it in in my first book
which was written as a biographical fiction so
you know i don't owe him anything but you know
i i it was mainly for my family and other people
but you know i I think the more healing you do,
the more you understand why people are the way
they are. And, you know, you don't have to necessarily
do them any harm either. But yeah, so the first
thing that happens after somebody dies in service
is, so I got told on the Sunday and then the
following morning, the family's office were in
my apartment with. a piece of paper which was
a license for me to stay in my property because
you're no longer entitled to your home and so
they were actually pretty good i mean i have
heard some horror stories but with me they were
pretty good and um because it was the first time
that we'd had repatriation in the uk it had never
been done before the funerals weren't for six
months after they died so all the funerals were
in the november december time and then i moved
and um by the spring i'd moved back to somerset
um so that was by then that was 1983 and then
You know, you think when you're young that you've
got your whole life ahead of you. And then suddenly
everything changes and everything that you thought
you were doing has changed. So I got a part -time
job and I kind of started to build a home. And
then in 1984, I met somebody else. And here's
the thing I think why I feel so strongly about
talking about this publicly now is when I spoke
earlier about being the invisible child in a
narcissistic family, one of the reasons why Gary
will remain one of the most poignant relationships
in my whole life was because he was the first
person who truly saw me. And I had a bond with
somebody that I'd never had before. You know,
somebody that really understood me. I didn't
have to always be flowery. You know, I could
be, I could have PMT. You know, I could be myself.
I could be happy. I could be sad. You know, we
could be everything to each other. I'm honest
with that. And I've never had that before. So
losing that, I think, can never be underestimated.
But I hadn't done the therapy and I hadn't done
the work and I didn't understand psychology.
I didn't understand the dynamics of my dysfunctional
family. And so therefore, I was a prime target
for somebody to come in on that wound. Because
not only have I got the childhood wounds of the
dysfunctional family and being the invisible
child and not being loved and not being accepted,
I then got on top of that. an extra wound from
having somebody that finally saw me loved me
for exactly who i was warts and all and then
got themselves killed and they're not there anymore
and no but nowhere to go with that because nobody
talked about bereavement counseling back in those
days you just go out into the world and get on
with it and you know somebody asked me it was
actually my hairdresser asked me today it's really
interesting i was telling her i was doing this
podcast and she said she said you know when gary
died she said did your mom was your mom supportive
i said no what my mum said to me was it could
happen to me you know i mean typical narcissist
you know what i mean um and i said but mom it
has happened to me and all she said and after
about the third time of her saying yeah but it
could happen to me you know your dad could die
you know What did happen was my dad died two
years later. So I think all of this is very relevant,
coming back to who I met. So I met this guy in
1984. And despite the fact that I had this dysfunctional
home, you know, my dad was the enabler. And if
you met my dad, everybody that met my dad would
say, what a nice chap, you know? And I loved
my, I really loved my dad. But after I've met
this guy, then what happened was my dad died.
My dad actually did die very suddenly. He literally
went to sleep one night, never woke up. So I've
got this compounded grief. You know, the end
of 1979, my grampy died just after Warren Point.
And then Gary gets killed in 1982. and then two
years later my father died suddenly so the three
most significant men in my life just gone in
the space of four and a half years so this man
who's coming on this wound has got somebody who's
incredibly vulnerable on his hands oh boy did
he use that to his advantage and He was another
serving soldier. He was attached to an army camp
near to Taunton. We just met out one night. So,
you know, I was horrified when I found out that
he was serving. But, you know, back in those
days, you had to give your 18 -month notice and
he'd already served nine months at that time.
And so... For me, as long as he was sure that
he was getting out and he wasn't going to go
back on that, I was like, there's only nine months
to go. And so during that time, you know, he
had to go back to his regiment in Germany. That
was no big deal. I was used to separation. I
was like, okay, you know, I'll see you when I
see you. And then we... He got out. And we carried
on a relationship. And on the surface, we appeared
to get on quite well, you know, like he did his
thing. He played squash. I went to the gym. I
kind of got into bodybuilding by then, you know,
I went to the gym. We had a dog, we had a cat,
we went the country walks, you know, we on the
surface had an okay family life. Until I found
out one thing. And of course, what happens is
when you find out that what you've got in front
of you is not what you thought it was. And it's
quite a significant thing that you find out,
you then start looking for other things. And
I just discovered this person was nothing like
I, they just weren't the person I thought I was
with at all. And you discover the lies. And of
course, when I confronted him, that's when the
violence started. And then it's the, I'm sorry,
it'll never happen again. And, you know, any
woman who's been through domestic violence will
know that one. And I remember him at one point
begging me. And I just said, I'll give it six
months because I didn't want to tear my family
apart. And I think every woman who's given somebody
a second chance has been there. You know, you
don't want to believe this is going to happen
again. And then. There was more things. And then
eventually something happened one day and I discovered
something. And I just said, there's nothing on
this planet I can think of to forgive that one
for any reason or any excuse you could come out
with. And there was actual, you know, evidence.
And I remember saying, I'm going out now. And
I expect you packed. I'll be back in two hours
and I expect you packed and I'll drop you wherever
you want to go. But I'm keeping both the cars
because I paid for them. And if you had any ways
of a normal situation, then that would have been
the end of the relationship. But when you're
dealing with somebody who's not reasonable, of
course it's not. And I had no rights. There were
no stalking laws. And I remember calling the
police one day and saying, look, you know, he's
been violent in the past. He's threatened me.
And this copper on the end of the phone said
to me, tell me what he looks like. And I described
him. Very distinctive chap. And he said, oh,
I know who he is. So if I see him, I'll pick
him up. Because there was a warrant out for his
arrest for something else. He was never, that
was never executed. He was friends with a lot
of the local police force. And there were no
stalking laws. And when I finally moved, I actually
got a boyfriend nearly a year later. And this
is the kind of thing that he would do. And I
remember one night. just literally is saying
shh and my new boyfriend said and i said just
be quiet and you know the sound of like an up
and over garage door that's a kind of sound that
it makes i heard the garage door open at the
back of the garage there was a a door that came
around to the back of the house and i'd heard
the door open And then I'd heard it close and
I'd heard the garage door close again. And this
new boyfriend said to me, do you want me to go
and check? And I said, don't even bother. He'll
be gone. You won't find him. And that's just
one example of the kind of thing that he would
do to screw with my mind. And I worked in a health
club and I, you know, I kind of ran it sort of
on the ladies days. And so I would be, being
the last person out and locked the door and at
10 o 'clock at night it was like a big glass
door and I'd hear it being shaken and rattled
and like you know I knew I you know I'd feel
somebody in the shadows and when it got really
serious was and this is the first time I've actually
said this in any interview was when on my doorstep
one day, he literally came right up into my face
and he said to me, I'm going to kill you one
day. I'm going to stab you until you're dead
and you're not going to see it coming. And I
felt sick to my stomach. How do you answer that?
And one of the reasons I'm speaking about it
now is that I mentioned to you before we started
the interview that I've been following Laura
Richards, you know, crime analyst, and I really
admire the work that she's been doing and has
done with coercive control and with DV cases
in general. And she's now responsible or a significant
part in getting coercive control as something
that is now a jailable offence in the UK. Of
course, you've got to prove it. It's not quite
the same as having, you know, black eyes and
broken bones. But I saw a reel of hers the other
day, and she actually said... one in two people,
one in two, I think she said men, because it's
mainly, you know, a male dominant, and that's
not to say women don't commit domestic violence,
of course they do, but I think she said one in
two people who issue threats to kill actually
carry them out. And I don't, I can't remember
the statistics, but it's... It's quite horrifying
how many murders there are. And, you know, she
talks quite a lot about femicide. It's quite
horrific. And so one of the things that I live
with, you know, there's certain things you carry
on living with after these things happen, is
that... In one of his moments of violence, he
picked me up. And I mean, I'm only five foot
one, so I'm not exactly very big. And he picked
me up and he threw me from one room. He literally
threw me out the room and I landed on my back.
And somebody was looking out for me that day
because I could have been paralysed. I was just
lucky in the way that I landed. But it's left
me with a back problem because of it. And I didn't
even go see a doctor. I only found out what was
going on years later when I had a scan. I didn't
want to go and see a doctor. Because that invisible
child who had been told it didn't happen. No
one's going to believe you. Struggled to have
a voice anyway. But then knowing that he was,
you know, friends with so many of the local force.
And that was... a horrendous position to be in
back in those days. So in 1991 I kind of got
to the point where I think in some ways PTSD
can be favourable in some situations because
you you dissociate and so when you're dissociated
you can get on with everyday life. You know,
it's not something that you're dwelling on all
day, every day. And in 1991, I had somebody who
was a bit like a surrogate dad to me after my
father died. I called him uncle, but he was a
lovely guy. And we talked it through and he said,
go, just go. And when I look back on it now,
I don't know where I got the strength from. And
to this day, I look back on that time. You know,
the Southeast was undergoing a really bad recession.
And on the news every day, there were like 500
to 1 ,000 people losing their jobs. And I packed
a bag. And I got a bedsit in East London. And
I traipsed the streets looking for work. And
the first weekend, it was actually February.
And I ought to check the date, actually, because,
you know, I said to you about being triggered
earlier. I kind of wonder if it was around about
now, because it was February 1991. We had this
terrible snowstorm and yet the motorways were
actually closed for three days. You know, it's
like in the UK, we get too much snow and we can't
cope, you know, we're not geared up for it. So
the first weekend I came to London, I couldn't
even get home. And I remember traipsing through
the snow. to jobs I wasn't qualified for, just
begging anyone and everybody that would listen.
And thankfully, what I had in my armory, I had,
along the way, I'd studied psychology and I had
something else in my armory. And then this really
unexpected job came up. I would have done anything.
I mean, at the time, I got a temporary job in
the job centre for six weeks, which paid my expenses.
So I would literally work Monday to Friday, live
in the bedsit. I would drive home on a Friday
night. It would be one o 'clock in the morning
by the time I would get back. I'd be falling
asleep virtually at the wheel. And then Saturday
morning, I would wake up, deal with any mail,
go and get shopping, do what I needed to do to
make sure the home was running while I was gone.
And then Sunday, I'd leave really... quite early
in the afternoon, about two -ish, because the
traffic coming into London later on was horrendous,
you know, so it would be like a hamster on a
treadmill. And then during that six weeks, I
had that temporary job. I saw this advert in
the newspaper, and they wanted a bereavement
counsellor to work in palliative care at the
hospital. And I just applied for it. And even
that job, a specialised job, There were over
80 applicants. And I always remember my new boss,
when I got the job, he said, because I was still
using my husband's name then. So, you know, the
interviews were done in alphabetical order. So
I was like the first interview of the day. And
I remember afterwards, he said, he said, everyone
was going to have to beat you after that interview.
You know, you made it quite clear you wanted
that job. You could do that job. You'd be good
at that job. I mean, you know, everybody that
came in after that had to be better than you.
And they said to me, I said, well, will you let
me know? And they said to me, we'll let you know
within three days. And I got a call that afternoon.
offering me the job and it just gave me a bit
of space to go and sort a few things out and
when I got back to the bedsit that night the
phone was ringing in the bedsit and it was my
old boss from Somerset and he just said congratulations
and I said what and I went oh my god Jeff they
obviously they run you for the reference because
to offer me the job that quickly they'd had to
phone the references you know and have that conversation
And so he was ringing to congratulate me. And
that, to me, was the beginning of me being able
to fully disappear. And, you know, the interesting
thing is, is that where I moved to just happened
to be where I knew somebody already and I could
get work. And it turned out it wasn't far from
this guy's, some of his family. And all I said
to them was, if you hear from him, you don't
know where I am, you haven't seen me. And nobody
ever asked any questions. And it was many, many
years later, I was kind of talking to, I guess
the easiest way of describing it would have been
my sort of brother -in -law, because we were
never actually married, right? And I mentioned
the fact that he'd been violent and actually
wired me. All he said was, yeah, we thought it
was much. And there is that same theme of playing
down what had happened. So the irony of it was
that he then was out of touch with his family.
And you know what, when I look back on it now,
if i'd taken the risk of staying who knows whether
it would have been okay or not but he then disappeared
himself i mean i have my suspicions about what
part of that time was you know um because he
you know he put it this way i had everybody from
the bailiffs to the fraud squad on my doorstep
after we split up so i mean there were several
things going on in the background And none of
his family saw him for 30 years anyway. Well,
you mentioned beginning this journey actually
as a grief counsellor, getting paid in a position.
Walk me through. not only you know that role
as far as being able to use your story to start
helping people but but obviously there's still
a lot of healing it's got to be done as you said
this is a long time ago we weren't having conversations
like this back then so kind of what what was
your grief slash mental health journey and then
how did you start kind of realizing that as you
were healing you were able to help other people
as well one of the things that will always stand
out in my mind is that as part of what we did
so we had we we had the first of all we had it
was very exciting times because we had the only
counseling service in the whole of london it
was all very new back then i mean you know there's
there was no mental health like there is now
yeah um and so it was a new service though my
role was specifically palliative care, you had
to be terminal to see me. So I saw patients that
were terminally ill and their families. But one
of the things that we did as part of that was
we ran six -week group sessions. And I always
remember this with a smile on my face because
it's what we call now lived experience, but nobody
called it lived experience back then. but it's
so powerful so there were two facilitators with
this group and all the groups bereaved and the
idea is that they're getting to know other people
that have been bereaved and hopefully they'll
make some friends or you know people that they
can keep in contact with after the six weeks
and that they share the experience of loss and
one day my colleague went out to do some photocopying
and the minute she left the room One of the guys
said, can we ask you a personal question? I said,
well, you can ask me. I may not answer, but fire
away. He said, are you one of us? A typical therapist.
I said, what do you mean? What do you mean by
that? And he said, well, we're sure that you're,
you know, he said, well, have you lost somebody?
And I said, well, yeah, I have actually. My husband
died. And the whole room erupted with this, we
knew it. And apparently they'd been talking about
it because they had been swapping phone numbers
and things. And he said, you know, no disrespect
to your colleague. We're sure she's very well
qualified and she's fine at her job. I said,
well, what made you ask that? He said, well,
because when you put things into the group, when
you say things into the group, you say it like
you know it. Not like you've learned it. And
that whole experience still brings a smile to
my face today because I think we use more. The
whole idea of podcasts and everything that we
do now is so much more around lived experience.
And, you know, I've chosen to share a bit more
of my story today because what I went through
was horrendous. and i didn't talk about it there
were very few people that ever knew about it
until i wrote that first book and then i wrote
that as a biographical fiction you know and i
spoke about the story but when we share things
from a place like i can talk about it now having
moved through it. And I did actually meet up
with him a couple of years ago. And I'm so glad
I did because two things happened in that meeting
that made me really go, whoa. One was I was late
because there was traffic on the M25 when we'd
agreed to sort of meet. midpoint he still to
this day doesn't know where I live and he's never
going to know where I live you know um but when
I met with him I think I was in contact with
him for a while and I really believe that anybody
can change anything if they choose to if they
want to you but the willingness has got to be
there to do the work So I get there late and
there was this pub. And, you know, when you get
like these little wooded areas next to pubs in
the countryside. And he said, should we just
go for a walk down there? And this is what I
get from listening to Laura Richards and the
experiences. I don't know if you've ever seen
that series Dirty John, you know, that a lot
of women have had certain experience with. violence
whether it's sexual violence or whether it's
domestic violence or both you get you do get
the hackles go up and as he's pointed to this
i every every hair on me stood on end and i thought
there's no way on this planet i'm walking down
there with you i said no it's all right we can
nip in for a quick drink so i think i had a mineral
water and he had a coke or whatever you know
And the other thing that came out of that meeting
was there was no remorse. There was no sorry
for what I did to you. There was no remorse whatsoever.
But that in itself was actually very healing
because I wouldn't suggest anybody had that kind
of meet unless they were really ready for it.
But I was. And I was prepared to accept an apology
if one was forthcoming. I think somebody who's
very well known for being sorry for what happened,
you know, is the singer David Soul. You know,
he went through that journey of being violent
and then he genuinely sort of did some work on
himself and apologised and everything afterwards.
So it's not that it never happens, but it's that
thing that when somebody's sorry, they take accountability,
don't they? And when they're not prepared to
take any accountability and there's no remorse,
they're not sorry. They don't care. It's really
interesting. The last book I wrote, one of the
big themes is generational trauma. I really wanted
to kind of, you know, get the reader and hopefully
the viewer and turning it into a show. To understand
that there's a domino effect. And, you know,
if you, as you know, as we sit here, if we can
identify those dominoes, then we can stop them
falling ideally onto our children or our grandchildren,
at least if, you know, depending on the timing,
but that. puts the responsibility squarely on
our shoulders to do the work to do the healing
to look at you know what happened to understand
our childhood to forgive our parents because
we understand their childhood um you know and
be grateful of the good parts of our upbringing
um but if you don't then you just watch that
domino smash right onto your child And this is
why I think you see two types of people. Usually
you have the ones that do the same exact thing
and you hear this a lot. Well, there's alcoholism
in my family. It's genetic. Like, well, no, we
know about epigenetics now. It's still something
that you can turn around and you can make sobriety
genetic, but you have to do the work. Or what
I saw, you know, I was just talking to my siblings
and it's very much, you know, with us is that.
There's an element of I'm never going to be like
that because I know how it feels. And I'm not
going to let my children feel the way that I
felt when I was a child. So, you know, you literally
are at a crossroads. And of course, it's also
down to the mentors that you have in your life.
Do you have these people that can help guide
you? Are you exposed to the right tools? And
it might be, you know, just someone to talk to.
It might be a psychedelic retreat that you need
to go to really unpack it. But this is, I think,
what's exciting about. this time now, as we sit
here having this conversation over this crazy
technology that we've got is that Gen X, like
our generation, I feel like we're straddling
one foot on each side. We've got the kind of
post -Victorian parents, and then we've got,
you know, this young generation. And I feel like
a lot of responsibility is on us. If we can do
the work and we can be the ones talking about
this stuff, the ripple effect can be positive
moving forward. I think it is. And the only thing
that I will say, I've skirted on the edges of
it in my writing, but the only thing that I will
say with regards to my own journey, and it's
one of the reasons I'm sharing what I'm sharing
today going forward, is because unfortunately,
I can't sit here and say I didn't pass on any
of my trauma. And I am deeply, deeply sorry that...
that i didn't get you know enough help at the
right time to avoid that but i think one of the
one of the reasons why i feel it's important
to share not excuse me there's this bit that
everybody knows about my story that i'm a war
widow but then they don't know the rest of it
and you know It's always easy to judge. And I
certainly used to judge my mother until I understood
her backstory. I had to understand her backstory
to forgive the things that she allowed to go
on under her roof and not do anything to protect
me. And that was pretty huge. But I have really
100 % forgiven her. And I really understand how
traumatized she was to become the person. People
don't just suddenly wake up one day and say,
I think I'll be a narcissist today. You know,
those people are very traumatized children. You
know, they've got their own generator. And so
that's the way it was. But with me, I didn't
get any support when my husband died. Where you
normally would have family come around you and
put their arms around you. I didn't have that.
And then I had this other guy come in. And in
a perfect world, would I want anyone to see somebody
putting me through the hell he put me through?
Of course not. In a perfect world, would I not
have wanted to fall in love with somebody that
would treat me well? Of course. But the reality
was, I tried to seek help. And I'll give an example
of how bad things were back in 1983. Before I
move back to Somerset, I have a history of anorexia.
I mean, again, I can laugh at it. It's always
very interesting that the things that you can
kind of like be very light about are the things
that have no power over you anymore, you know.
And I think when I look back on it now, yes,
there is that element that I became a perfectionist.
That was one of my coping mechanisms. But then
there's this other side that I think this invisible
child was literally trying to disappear so they
couldn't be seen. Of course, you're not conscious
of any of that. But then when Gary died, and
I literally, the weight just fell off me. Even
when I was eating, the weight fell off me. And
then I kind of just couldn't eat at all. And
I actually paid to go and see a psychiatrist.
Again, this was prior to me studying psychology.
And I said, look, I've got a problem. Every time
I get immense trauma in my life, I just can't
eat. and I don't want to live like this anymore
I want to delve into the reasons behind this
and this psychiatrist looked at me and said well
you're very young and you're very pretty and
I think the best thing you can do is get married
again and wrote me a prescription for antidepressant
that when I look back on it now as a trained
and very experienced therapist I can think what
about me made him so uncomfortable that he couldn't
see me I mean, of course, I was manifesting the
invisible child and the problem's not real. You
know, I know what I was actually manifesting.
But what was he seeing? What could he not handle?
Because I was saying, look, I've got a problem.
I need help. And I was prepared to pay for it.
No, you're all right, dear. Just go and get,
you're very young, very pretty. Go and get married
again. So, of course, again, unconsciously, that's
what drew me into another relationship. I met
somebody and... I allowed myself to be chosen
by a not very good man. So everything is a part
of that journey, isn't it? And along the way,
I've done a lot of work, but the more things
get layered and the more trauma you've got to
work through, the harder it is to get to the
core of it. And so for me, I mean, you know,
I kind of mentioned this at the beginning, you
know, today's an anniversary of 11 years ago.
I nearly died for the second time in 13 months.
And it was so interesting when you, you know,
because you obviously, we're on the same page,
you know, we've got that whole understanding
of generational trauma. We've got that same understanding
of epigenetics and cell memory and all that kind
of stuff. The first time I nearly died, I manifested
my family situation. So there I am rolling around
in agony, playing score 7 to 10 on morphine and
paracetamol and everything they could chuck at
me. And they left me for 24 hours in the corner
of the ward. and when i begged for a doctor they
said there's no doctor available so i ended up
in an induced coma in intensive care you know
five hour surgery nearly dying because nobody
bothered to do any tests they'd forgotten about
me oh hang on a minute what did that remind me
of and then a year later I went in for an angiogram
because I've been having these symptoms. And
I attracted the exact opposite. They couldn't
have done more for me. So the second time I had
a stress cardiomyopathy, otherwise known as broken
heart syndrome. What a surprise there. The only
surprise for me was it took so long to happen,
you know. With a cardiac arrest. So I think.
somebody told me the survival rate even when
you're in hospital of that is only about 17 to
20 percent and the doctor said to me afterwards
he said um all joking aside he said we struggle
to bring you back because when when when my heart
stopped when my heart stopped what happened um
was they shot me straight off at 360. They didn't
sort of like build it up at all, just straight
in at 360. Nothing happened. You know, they give
me the drugs, whack. Then they're doing like,
I actually thought I was down for two minutes,
but I found some notes the other day, I was having
a clear out, and actually I was down for three
minutes. And so they're doing all these chest
compressions for that three minutes, and then
they put more drugs in, whack me again, and got
me back into sinus rhythm. And the doctor said
to me, he said, you know, all joking aside, he
said, we struggled to bring you back. And I remember
lying in that cardiac unit. And that was 11 years
ago today that that happened. And they think
what happened was, you know, when you've got
a stress cardiomyopathy, you know, the left ventricle
isn't pumping properly. And so they think what
happened was when they gave me the sedative,
it just seized up. and that's when i went into
cardiac arrest and um i remember thinking when
the doctor said that it's probably because i
didn't want to come back you know when life gets
so shitty you you don't necessarily want to go
and top yourself but at the same time you don't
necessarily want to hang around either but those
two events They were my turning point. And through
a lot of deep, deep, deep therapy and getting
down into my emotional vulnerability and really
having a very, very good therapist recognize
and acknowledge to me how much trauma I'd actually
been through. That was my turning point in starting
to really heal. Because I've done lots of therapy
before, but I've never got underneath, underneath,
underneath until, you know, we've got to get
back to that original wound. If we don't get
back to the original wound, then we're just dealing
with events, aren't we? Well, this is what you
see in, you know, fire, police, military, so
many people that come on the show when they either
do like a really good immersive. psychotherapy
or more often than not it might be mdma -led
psychotherapy or psilocybin or you know whatever
these experiences are they're having the the
assumption is well you were on goose green you
were you know in fallujah you were at the grenfell
fire and what happens more often than not almost
every single time is the real trauma is from
their formative years which the psychology behind
why they even put the uniform on is is embedded
in there too So, you know, I always call it the
princess and the pea. You know, we keep adding
mattresses and we've got to actually find that
pea. And once you get to the initial thing that's
fractured the foundation, then, yeah, of course,
some of these other traumas are going to be cumulative.
But, you know, if you're not getting to the origin,
the nucleus of the struggle, then, you know,
you're going to have these people that are frustrated.
And as you said, they just give up. They're like,
well, I must be crazy. You know, I'm a piece
of shit. I'm just going to finish it now. Because
we never looked at the whole holistic human.
We just said, well, you know, you're a police
officer and you were on this call and that's
why you're hurting. Yeah, and I think, you know,
there's been over the years, you know, how I
describe it now, I've got a fantastic understanding
of, I really wish I'd sat down and had a conversation
with my aunt. So my father's sister. very attractive
woman always immaculate and you know back in
the 1960s she was a brunette you know she had
that sort of short sort of that sort of perfect
hair twin set and everything but I thought she
was my maiden aunt and she was oh the things
people said about about my aunt because she had
an affair with the local jeweler in a small town
where everybody gossips you know and and he was
married so she ended up running away she ran
away with him and they ended up together and
um i only found this out when i was researching
my first book and i was researching my family
and i i couldn't find her death and i thought
that's a bit weird and then i searched for a
marriage and i discovered that my maiden aunt
wasn't a maiden aunt at all she'd been married
for two years i thought i've got to find out
how her husband died you know he was only about
27. So I sent away for the death certificate.
When I got it, he had taken his own life in a
very violent way. And of course, it's got the
details of where it happened and all the rest
of it. And this is this thing, and it's part
of why I'm sharing more openly now the things
that I've gone through in terms of the DV, et
cetera, because... There's so much shame with
it. There's shame with sexual abuse. There's
shame with domestic violence. You know, you're
the one that chose that person, so you feel bad
about the fact that you brought that into your
life. You know, you only heal from things when
they're no longer secrets. So there was this
secret within the family that this aunt of mine,
who now I realise she was... Just completely
dissociated. She never had a conversation. She'd
come in, if I was ever at my grandmother's house,
she would come in from work and then she would,
in her little Welsh accent, she'd go, oh, hello,
you know, and raise things on the Welsh accent
and off she'd scoot upstairs and that would be
it. She would never have a conversation. And
I look back on it now and I think. when i know
what i've been through and you know the irony
of it you know we talk about generational trauma
it's really interesting because the way that
my what would have been my uncle killed himself
was exactly how gary died in terms of the injury
because he shot himself although gary didn't
shoot himself but you know i mean he was the
the way it happened and i thought at that time
Gosh, if I'd known, I would have gone and seen
my aunt and I would have sat down and I know
that we would have had a conversation that would
have been so different because I never saw her
after she ran away with the guy. The family never
spoke again. And that's where I think these conversations
and podcasts, and that's why I do these things
now is. You don't heal anything by not talking
about it. I'm sure over the years that people
have seen me when I've been dissociated, they
thought I was all sorts of things other than
what I really was. Because when you're dissociated,
you can look quite cold. My aunt certainly did,
but she was probably heartbroken. Yep. You know,
but people see what they want to see. And I think
what happened, because my familial role shifted
when my sibling left home, and then I went from
being the invisible child to the scapegoat. It
was all my, everything was my fault. It didn't
matter, even if I wasn't there, it was still
my fault, you know. And I think what naturally
happened, because I didn't, When I think of some
of the things that have been said about me and
to me back in those days, I wouldn't allow anyone
to say that to me now. Those things now, I'd
be like, are you kidding me? Excuse me? Do you
want to rerun that? Did you really just say that?
But the things that people said. And I look back
on it now, having been that trained therapist,
especially specialising in grief, that they were
taking the anger part of their grief out on me.
And because of my role play in terms of how I
saw myself in the world, I just absorbed it all.
Did anybody sit there and say, oh my gosh, that...
That must be devastating. Did anybody, no, did
anybody say to me, just sit there and grieve?
Just grieve. For as long as it takes. No. And
so behind me, you know, there was my mother's
generation. And I know my father couldn't handle
Gary's death at all. And I think part of that
was because my grandfather served and came back
from World War One. My father served and came
back from World War Two. He came back. Well,
actually, he was medicked out with tuberculosis
and his brother died of it. So there's that thing
where why did I survive? My brother died kind
of thing. You know, he would have had to live
with that. And he was in and out hospital for
like seven years. And when I actually phoned
my father to tell him that Gary had been killed,
the first thing my dad said was, you're joking.
He just said, you're joking. And I'm on the end
of the phone heartbroken saying, why would I
joke about that, Dad? I don't think he could
absorb it. And actually, the next thing he said
to me was, I'm going to have to call you back.
And, you know. I think everybody that I told
pretty much, apart from one friend who just said,
do you want me to come? And I said, yes, please.
It was, I'm going to have to call you back. It's
really hard to absorb that information. But I
think, you know, when I look back on it, there
was two generations, weren't there, of World
War I and World War II that were so close together.
And I was the child of, you know, the World War
II parents. So there was just... trauma after
trauma after trauma in a very short space of
time and what did british people do they just
got on with it step up a lip yeah the idea i
mean i've always thought and i always said this
way before i got into studying psychology i've
always thought you know you know it's for years
and years and years it was a normal thing in
america to go for therapy here it's like Don't
suggest I need therapy. You know, you're telling
me there's something wrong with you. I've got
a mental illness. I mean, just go and explore.
And we stigmatize it, don't we? Yeah, we do.
But I think I think it's getting better. But
I think we need to get past the word stigma now.
And actually, because I've reframed it a lot
recently is that, well, how can you optimize
you as a human being? You know, it's not like,
oh, let me be less sad and cry a little less.
It's like, well, how can I thrive again? How
can I get back on? And as you've alluded to in
this whole conversation, how can I use my scars
to be better, to be more empathetic, to be more
resilient? I think there's a lot of hope, a lot
of exciting, you know, you're 2 .0, but we've
kind of got stuck here as it's very, at least
in my profession, it's kind of very doom and
gloom, the whole mental health conversation.
And again, you want to talk about stigma, that's
the overdoses. That's where they still don't
want to talk about it, but it's the same exact
conversation. Really understand that when you
do the work, not only are you a better version
of yourself, but as you said, the trauma that
passed on to my child, the trauma that passed
on to your children, that then we're like, okay,
well, I'm fixing the dominoes that fell from
World War I, World War II onto me. Now I'm turning
to my children and saying, hey, here's what I
know you've experienced through me, through your
other parent. And so let's work on that too.
you know what did i do wrong yeah and i think
that's where it's very interesting actually because
when i talk about that experience and when i
did see my ex 30 odd years later and what i saw
was an older version of the same person you know
there's no acknowledgement about about you know,
there's no remorse, there's no part of, there's
still the same being out of touch with reality
and not being able to take ownership of what
happened and have an adult, which I was prepared
to have. I was prepared to go, because I was
facing my demons. You know, this person had been
somebody in the shadows for over 30 years and
I was facing my demons. Do I regret it? No. 100
% because I was prepared to either get what I
got and know that nothing had changed or I was
prepared to get some accountability and have
an adult conversation about it and be able to
move forward differently. I was prepared for
either. I was going to just get rid of that.
that demon that was in the shadows for it not
to be having any power over me anymore that's
another part of healing isn't it so the interesting
thing is is i think when people are still stuck
oftentimes when you look at reconciliation and
when you look at how you do heal intergenerational
relationships you have to have accountability
you know i'm a hundred percent aware of the good
and the bad and the indifferent things i've done
in life and anybody can come to me with anything
and say i didn't like you know i didn't like
it when you said or when you did and i'll say
well tell me about it tell me about that tell
me tell me about why you didn't like it let's
let's talk it through which is kind of the person
that you know that that didn't agree with war
you know that that's that part of me that's always
believed that you should be able to somehow talk
it through but you can't do that with somebody
who's determined that a you're in the wrong and
they're not prepared to see or speak to who you
are today you can't have a reconciliation without
there being accountability on both sides So those
conversations sometimes, and there are people
in my life that I never want to see again. You
know, one of my main perpetrators has been dead
for years now. Have I forgiven him? Yeah. Does
it still affect me? Some parts of it. But in
the main... i've made my peace with it but if
that person was alive today the only way i wouldn't
be able to have a conversation with them which
is how it always was when they were alive was
because they would never admit what they did
so that's the thing isn't it if we're going to
do healing there has to be accountability absolutely
i want to be mindful of your time we're almost
at two hours now so Before I let you go, talk
to me about the books that you've got out there
and where people can find not only the books,
but all the other things that you offer. Okay,
so As She Danced was my first book, which I wrote
in 2019. That's based on my life story from when
I was born up until 1992. The Falcon's Widow
is a journey through grief, so that's autobiographical.
I personally would love to see more health professionals
read that book because I think, again, grief
is still... How many times do people go to the
doctor and they're sad or they're saying they're
presenting with some form of depression and the
doctor doesn't even ask them, has there been
a bereavement? And depression is part of the
grief process. So I would love to see more professionals
read that book. And that's my own personal journey
through grief. So it goes through the grief stages.
But it's kind of a how to do it and how not to
do it because it took me so long because, you
know, there was those obstacles like that psychiatrist
in the way. So that book ends with me kind of
getting to the point where I'm actually at a
crossroads. That was written in 2021. And so,
you know, I'm at this crossroads of where I'm
going next in life. There's all this healing
being done and this grief process with all these
layers of trauma. But where next? And then the
last book I published, which was published by
Pen and Sword in November 2024, that's just called
The Falklands Fallen. um you you kind of asked
me about my journey through grief well actually
that was very significant in it because i set
out writing a blog and it turned into a book
and that is little stories about all of the 255
servicemen and three civilians that died in the
falklands war and it took me seven years to research
it And I was very privileged along the way to
speak to siblings and children. Some of them
were older, but some of them were only babies,
you know, who don't even have any memories of
their father. And other widows. I have two naval
widows that I meet up with every now and again.
We have a very long lunch and have a catch up.
had the opportunity to speak to so many family
members. I didn't interview every family. It
was impossible to find every family. But it took
seven years to research because it was just hard
to get the information. Especially on, you know,
like the Chinese that served with the Merchant
Navy, for example. You can't always access the
records. So I'm very proud of that because it's
the first of its kind in military history. And
I failed my history O level grade nine. So my
history teacher would really be absolutely rolling
around the floor laughing at the idea of me writing
anything to do with anything historical. So that's
my last book. And I've now got another work in
progress. I'm a great fan of all the greats that
we have today, like Gabor Maté. Bessel van der
Kolk, Dr. Bruce Lipton. We know so much more
about cell memory and trauma and everything now,
but I don't know how long I'm going to be on
this planet. I'm rapidly headed towards 70 now.
I'll be 69 this year, so who knows? But I'm happy
to still be growing and learning and healing.
because let's face it it's a never -ending story
you know so those books are already out there
if you just put my name into you know any search
engine you'll find those books the the last one
though um i donated all the all of the royalties
to a charity so i specifically didn't want to
earn anything from that book and then i've got
a website jmorganhirons .com and i now kind of
spend a lot of time walking in nature, going
to the gym. We haven't gone there, but that's
okay. I was a competitive bodybuilder at one
point, and that actually saved my life, literally.
And now I spend a lot of time in the gym, and
I do some public speaking, and I write, and I'm
trying to get a balance in life. Because as you
know, you can live life at 100 miles an hour
when you're trying to get away from pain. So
I'm not that person anymore. So, you know, life
is, it's got a lot more balance to it now. And
I share my story. And thank you for having me
on, James, because I spoke to a friend about
whether I should be open about. that that whole
reason why i disappeared to london because people
often ask me oh how long you've been in london
and why did you move there and of course historically
i've not really told the truth about it so it's
been good to be able to actually voice it today
well i want to thank you i mean as we talked
about before the storytelling element coupled
with obviously psychology and all these other
things that people bring onto the show you know
it's it's what pulls people in it's what lets
them say well that's me you know they might be
in deep in the middle of a domestic um sort of
violent you know relationship at the moment that
might be all they needed to hear to find the
courage to to get out you know it might be someone
who's dealing with grief at the moment it might
be a first responder understanding that there
are layers to their trauma So these conversations
are so important and I'm humbled by the fact
that you, you know, went to that, that second
relationship and, you know, trusted me enough
to talk about that today. So I want to thank
you so, so much for being so generous with your
time and come on the Behind the Shield podcast
today. Oh, you're very welcome. It's been, it's
been a pleasure and thank you for having me.