Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
dog trainer, firefighter paramedic, canine search
specialist, and co -founder of the Siren Project,
Tim Howling. Now, in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics from his journey into the world
of search dogs, the personality makeup of a good
search canine, his journey into the fire service,
some notable special operations deployments,
his own powerful mental health story, the healing
power of psychedelics, the genesis of the Siren
Project, and so much more. Now, before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever
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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
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And this is a free library of now over 1 ,200
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so I can get them to every single person on planet
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you, Tim... Howling. Enjoy.
Well, Tim, I want to start by saying two things.
Firstly, thank you to your wife, Angela. for
making this connection in the first place. And
secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Thank you. It's great
to be here. This is about my first time actually
being out in public to talk about some of these
things. So I appreciate the platform. Yeah, no,
whatever needs to be spoken about. I'm in many
of the areas that we're going to discuss today.
Very first question, where on planet Earth are
we finding you today? Right now I'm in Carmel
Valley, which is in Monterey County, California.
And it's a beautiful 80 degree day here in February.
And this is an amazing part of the country. We're
outside of the fancy Carmel. We can't afford
to live in Brad Pitt country, but we're about
25 minutes away up in the valley. And it's a
fantastic little community with beautiful weather.
And I can't imagine living anywhere else right
now. Brad Pitt country. He was born there or
he lives there now? He moved here a couple of
years ago into Carmel Highlands. And so you can
follow the drones for those looking for Brad
Pitt spotting over on the coast. I was talking
to someone literally yesterday about fame. I
can't think of anything worse than your child
playing football somewhere, soccer, and having
photographers hiding in the bushes. I think I'd
be in prison by now. So I think anonymity is
a superpower. I don't think people realize that.
Absolutely. I can't imagine doing the thing that
you love and becoming famous for it and then
being sort of stuck in the prison of fame afterwards
and not being able to do all the little things
that make life nice. Exactly. All right. Well,
let's start at the very beginning of your timeline
then. So tell me where you were born and tell
me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings. So I was
born and raised in River City, California, which
is on the peninsula, now kind of Silicon Valley,
people know it as. I was the baby of four of
three older sisters. They're nine, eight and
six years older than me. So in a lot of ways,
I kind of grew up as an only child. They were
a little bit older and being girls, they didn't
really like to go play Star Wars figures in the
backyard. And my parents remained married. um
they went through their own sort of tough times
my dad was a recovering alcoholic who found sobriety
when i was about four or five and grew up really
playing a lot of sports and focused on baseball
a lot so redwood city was a great place to grow
up it's a little um suburb now of the bigger
cities we're about a half hour south of san francisco
And then I went to Sarah High School in San Mateo,
which is an all boys Catholic school and had
a great experience there. Played basketball,
played baseball for four years and best known
for the schools of Tom Brady and Lynn Swan and
Barry Bonds. So kind of a big sports high school,
as it turns out, but terrific education. And
from there, I went on to Santa Clara University,
which is in the heart of Silicon Valley here.
It's a Jesuit college and ended up doing accounting
because it was really the only subject I was
good at. For some reason, if it's the first class
in all my classes, you know, leading up to that,
I got an A. And so I thought accounting was the
way to go. You know, my dad was a businessman.
He sold insurance for construction companies.
My mom was a nurse, a labor delivery nurse, but
I was always sort of steered in the direction
of go be. you know, a business guy. You know,
we don't have to get our hands dirty anymore.
Let's go live in the white collar world. It's
a lot easier on your body and go use your brain
to do something. So accounting just kind of made
sense. And when I graduated from Santa Clara
in 1994, those were the places where there were
jobs. So there was a little bit of recession
going on and I could actually get hired. So I
actually came out of college and I was a CPA
for about six years. And so that was a whole
nother world. It's I can't imagine doing that
now and going into an office. But it was it was
a great start. And it's things I still use today
in terms of how to understand finances, accounting,
things like that. Going back to your father's
struggles, knowing now, especially in what we're
going to discuss later, how much childhood trauma
factors into a lot of people struggled in uniform.
Have you had any conversations as far as his
upbringing and what contributed to his own struggles?
So the problem is a lot of the questions I want
to ask were never asked because he passed away
when he was 63. So I was about 29 years old at
the time, much earlier than before I sort of
had my own awakening about why I was the way
I was. So I wish I could ask him and I wish I
could ask my mom who have both passed away. But
I did talk to my sisters and, you know, there's
a big difference between being four years old
when this stuff is going on and being 13 years
old in terms of your understanding. You know,
my earliest memories were drawing pictures of
football helmets at a place that wasn't my home
because my mom had kicked my dad out for a period
of time. And realizing that this was just kind
of weird. They did work it out and she did take
him back. And I think that led to his sobriety.
And, you know, one of the things that really
touched me was at his funeral. We had a lot of
people come out and say, hey, your dad saved
my life. Your dad was my sponsor and he stopped
me from drinking and was always there. And this
was stuff that we hadn't. we had never heard
about we had no idea that he was out doing this
stuff and helping people he just kind of kept
it to himself and kept that um that confidentiality
that is important there but um we had no idea
that he was out helping other alcoholics into
recovery and that was really touching so um knowing
what i know now that clearly was an impact on
my life as drinking and and where i ended up
and i think There's general agreement that first
responders, military, especially the special
ops guys, probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't
for some level of childhood trauma. And I think
that's where a lot of us start to put the armor
on is in our childhood. And it's a lifetime of
learning how to take that off. That is such a
beautiful story to hear, though, that your dad
not only was able to overcome his own addiction,
but then use his story to be a beacon of light.
And you obviously hear this a lot in AA with
the sponsors. But it really does illustrate this
concept that I'm sure we're going to unpack as
well. But I literally wrote about in my most
recent book is that generational trauma. There
are these dominoes that we... If we go back these
generations, you start to see them very clearly.
Well, this is my parents upbringing. This is
my grandparents upbringing. This is my great
grandparents upbringing. And now we're in World
War II, World War I, this cycle. But if you can
see it and if you can do the work and you can
heal from it, they say hurt people, hurt people.
And we see that all over the world. But heal
people, heal people. And I think what a beautiful
testament to your dad that the work he did, he
stopped that domino somewhat from falling. if
not onto to you and your sisters certainly the
generation after yeah and it was really um it's
one of those things you don't recognize really
at the time and um you know his background was
he had an older brother who died when he was
17 years old so the brother was still in high
school my dad was about 13 i think at the time
and uh never spoke about it you know that was
something that we just didn't we didn't talk
about that was in the 1950s and so There's no
doubt that some forgiveness comes when you recognize
your parents are also human and are doing this
for the first time, living their first life and
don't have all the answers. And being a father
now, I certainly recognize like, oh, my God,
this is this is tough to do. Even if you have
the most perfect, pristine background and no
trauma, it is a challenge to do. So I appreciate
him. And in fact. I have a picture over here.
The last picture we have of him is him holding
this sign. I don't know if you can see it. It
says, I am so proud of you. So that's the sign
that he had. I had a really tough year back in
2004, and I had thrown myself into running. And
so I decided I needed a goal. So I decided I
was going to run the New York City Marathon.
And my folks came out. Super proud of me. And
they took that picture of him in the hotel room
before they went down to like cheer me on in
Central Park. And he got on a plane that night
and flew home and went straight to the hospital,
never came out. So that's the last picture we
have of him alive is passing the message that
he's proud of me. So that's certainly for me,
like, oh, talk about a role model. Now, you know,
I understand everybody. I had trouble with alcohol
myself. And so I understand that we're human.
But the fact that he. He changed to go help people,
I think, was a huge impact, huge modeling of
behavior for my life. Absolutely. Well, going
back to your first profession, then talk to me
as you reflect back now, the pros of accounting
and then what was some of the cons, if any? There
is a there is a baseline knowledge that you under
that you get to understand about how businesses
work. That's something that it's really hard
to see from the outside. So accounting is organized.
It's very professional. I was doing audits on
companies. And for me, it was a great lesson
in responsibility. I was put in charge of a team
of about 25 people when I was 25, 26 years old,
which is a pretty big team to lead. you have
to do it you have to step up to the task at a
young age so i appreciate that i learned a ton
um but i also learned that the the world of accounting
is largely backward looking we're looking at
history of things that what of what happened
and i wanted to move to something that was more
forward -looking more strategic and more um kind
of aggressive and exciting so i in 2000 i got
I made a big move from looking at accounting
to working on Wall Street. So I went to an investment
banking firm and I started working on mergers
and acquisitions. And that was in 2000. Now,
around that time, I was dating a woman in New
York. I always thought it'd be really cool to
live in the city. So I made the move from the
West Coast to the East Coast in 2000. And one
of the best moves I ever made in my life. I absolutely
love New York. And so the relationship I moved
for lasts about six months once I got to the
city, as they often do. And I stayed in New York
working in investment banking until early 2005.
And then I moved home. I sort of had a couple
of life moments in that sort of time period that
I think really directed me to go on a different
path. And I started this period that... last
over 20 years while it's still going on of sort
of searching. And so that was a super critical
time for me as I got a little bit older and a
little bit more mature of trying to figure out
what life was supposed to be all about. Going
back to the taxes for a moment, for people listening,
I don't know if this was even your world at all,
but what are some of the common mistakes or common
myths that the average person understands or
misunderstands as far as their own taxes? So
there's a lot of subjectivity in taxes. And it's
a risk assessment. So how aggressive you are
in your taxes, you could be totally fine. You
may not ever get audited. And nobody is sort
of the wiser. There's people who are very by
the book on how they interpret the tax code.
And those people pay more taxes. So there is
strategy in a... In minimizing taxes, there's
jail for avoiding taxes. And there's a really
fine line between the two. And so your accountant,
if you use an accountant to do your taxes, understand
that you have to get to know them a little bit
like a therapist in terms of their attitudes
towards risk and what kind of risks they're going
to put you in. Some people don't ever want to
be close to breaking a rule. Some people don't
ever want to be subject to interpretation. And
others are like, let's go, man. Let's get as
much money back as we can. And so for personal
taxes, that's a very important thing. And there's
a lot you could do to plan ahead to minimize
your taxes. And whether that's your deferred
comp, whether it's have some side businesses.
um all that stuff is is things that people who
are young and starting out especially firefighters
ought to know a little bit more about absolutely
i didn't realize we had a really good lady in
um california and all the things that we were
legally allowed to to write off you know all
obviously the educational material and some of
the firefighting gear that we bought that year
and yeah you can be naive and i think i still
am to a point and probably pay a lot more than
you should but i think the fear of obviously
being audited and getting into trouble i think
probably leans a lot of people to overpaying
on taxes i would assume yes yeah and they you
know they're very rarely are they going to come
back and say oops you paid us too much here's
your money back right so well with that what
about you know when when we talk about the abuse
of um you know governmental support government
government support excuse me A lot of times it's
aimed at people on welfare, food stamps, government
housing, et cetera. But the lesser discussed
side is the pilfering when it comes to businesses
and the underpaying of taxes there. Were you
exposed to any of that at all? Sure. And there's
a fundamental problem is that if you are a CPA
or a tax attorney and if you go to work for the
government, That's a very noble thing, but you're
going to make about half as much as you do in
the private sector. So just like investment banking,
where we see similar things of fraud and schemes,
those are incredibly smart people. And while
we often paint them with a brush of their fraudulent,
their immoral, what we really have are people
who are more comfortable working on the fringes
of what is allowed and what's not. And so the
almighty dollar plays a huge role in this. If
you want, you see the best and brightest minds
oftentimes where the most money is. And that's
just the rules of the game today. Very rarely
do you see the best and brightest going into
enforce those laws. And so we have people who,
when I was working in investment banking, there
were analysts that would just cover three companies
and that's it. And so. There's this idea that
the average civilian can go make money in the
stock market. And for me, that's pretty absurd.
You're playing against some people who pay millions
of dollars just to have their hub of technology
closest to the stock exchange in order to make
that 0 .1 second difference in hitting that trade.
You don't stand a chance. What you can do is,
you know, a rising tide lifts all ships. But
the idea that you're going to outpick one of
the professional pickers is impossible. And it
goes to the level of there were guys I know who
made friends, made big gifts to people in manufacturing
facilities in China to get information about
how many screens were being made for this or
for that so that they can know ahead of time
of how well that company is doing. Some of that
is totally fine. Like if you want to go do that
level of research, that's totally legal. Some
of it rises to insider trading when you get that
information from the company. So some of these
guys were just super aggressive researchers and
hats off to them. They made a ton of money doing
it. But the idea that you or me can stand a chance
against those guys is absolutely crazy at this
point in the stock exchange. So you hope that
the economy goes up overall. folks like you and
me can prosper and make money. I promise you
this though, when they're talking about it around
the table at the firehouse, it's almost always
too late. The firefighters love a good outside
financial thing and it's almost always a bad
idea. I never got into that because I saw the
guys glued to their screen. And I'm like, this
is not fun. I will just go earn extra money somewhere
else. Same with the investment properties. I
had friends that had rentals and they were just
constantly pulling their hair out and tenants
were leaving it all destroyed and not paying.
And again, I'm happy with the small amount of
money that I make. I don't need to make more
because I think that there's money and then there's
value. And those things, I think, are very different.
Absolutely. yeah and you know we've it's run
the gamut at the firehouse and or before 2008
was investment properties in the central valley
we're going to go through the roof and then it
was you know bitcoin and then there were these
bridge loans and then you know people are buying
silver and there's there's all kinds there's
always the latest scam around the firehouse and
generally my feeling is if you're talking it
at the firehouse you're too late to the party
and the value has already occurred so i stay
away from all those stuff Yeah, that's good to
hear. Yeah, I think there was one famous like
how to get rich quick book on QVC years ago.
And then they discovered that that guy got rich
by selling books on how to get rich. I think
the most interesting thing out there right now
is those funds that follow the politicians trading.
I think that is probably the best place to get
wealthy because I see what the politicians are
making on the stock market and it beats all the
hedge funds. I love that idea of putting NASCAR
style stickers on politicians so you know who's
bought them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, speaking
of Wall Street, I've had a few guests that have
been on there. Firstly, what was the goal? What
was your kind of motivation to moving to that
world? And then... you know if i'm assuming there
was an element of obviously the financial side
did you find it satisfying when you were actually
on wall street making good money so you know
the the sticker price is what you see first off
so you see young folks you know in their in their
mid to late 20s you know pulling down at that
time you know a million bucks a million half
bucks at that age is not uncommon and that that
attracts you and for people who are competitive
like i am That's something you want to, that's
a race you want to get into. It wasn't too long
after that, maybe a couple of years in that my
interest really changed and I was helping small
businesses sort of plan for the next generation.
So for instance, I got to help this one company
named Spider. They do ski gear. And the owner
at the time had started it 30 years ago for his
son, who was a ski racer, and it was a little
catalog business. And it was time for him to
move on. He was like 77 at the time. He wanted
to secure his future. He wanted to know where
that business was going to go. And so helping
somebody like that, who it was their life work,
make the most amount of money for their company
was fantastic. And I love that. But as you move
up in promotions, in the investment banking world
i i was exposed to less and less of those opportunities
and you start to manage the managers so i had
several people working for me and my contact
with those with those business owners was less
and less and so that was disappointing for me
and um it became way less fun and way less meaningful
and so you know i talked about the challenging
year in 2004 i had been engaged to a woman who
I came home after being at work for like 36 hours
to hit a deadline. And she basically gave me
the ring back and said, hey, this is not right.
I'm not ready. You're not the right one. I'm
just going to leave. And never really got an
explanation of it. And so that's when I was like,
man, I see these senior people in my firm who
are, I don't want to be the fat 50 -year -old
who dies at his desk from a heart attack. And
that was certainly a path. That was going that
I was going down. You know, I had lived I lived
in Manhattan during 9 -11 I knew some people
who died in the towers and I think that really
started this like what am I doing here? What
am I doing with my life? And I you know failed
relationships getting fat Going out and partying
super hard for like the one night a week that
I could go out and not really having any meaningful
relationships. So I was definitely seeking at
that point in my life. And my dad's passing away
really sort of drove me to actually do something
about it and make a change. So what did that
initial change look like? So in investment banking
at that time, and I don't know what it's like
now, but it was expected that you would be around
the office for like six, six and a half days
a week. you know i would get usually sunday afternoons
off and the rest of the time i'd be around the
office and it was you know you eat you eat breakfast
lunch and dinner at your desk and you're busy
doing stuff um so i'm sorry what was your question
one more time that's okay you mentioned that
that there was a change after losing your father
so what did that yeah yeah so um one of the things
that i always thought about You know, I had a
dog when I was 12. And you think back about as
a parent, like all the little things you do.
But for me, my parents getting me my own dog
when I was 12 was really life changing. So I'm
sitting there in the office, you know, unhappy,
wondering what I would do. What would I do if
I didn't have to be here? And the one thing that
kept coming back to me is I want a dog. And so
if I wasn't here, I wanted a dog. I wanted to
go up and ski. when my dad passed away you know
my mom was alone in the house and i said screw
it this is this is the time it's kind of now
or never and so i moved back home um and i got
a dog and that dog's name was deuce and um i
spent part i spent most of the winters kind of
up in tahoe uh now at palisades it was squaw
valley at the time and i skied and i raised a
puppy and having lived through 9 11 having um
I was actually at Candlestick Park for the Loma
Prieta earthquake back in 1989. I had seen what
search dogs had done. I didn't know anything
about them, but I had seen, and I was always
kind of intrigued, like, hey, that's pretty cool.
So I decided I'd figure out how to go to one
of those trainings. And I went to one of those
trainings, and that's the first time I ever saw
something I'm, like, hooked, man. Like, hook,
line, and sinker, like, I need to be doing that.
And it was... Kind of no looking back from there.
So it started with the simple idea that all I
want is to not be in this office. I don't really
know what I do want, but I want a dog. And me
and that dog, we had tons of adventures. And
so that was Deuce. That led me into search and
rescue. And that really was like the start of
how can I do this professionally? Is there another
world outside of being in the office? So after
a couple of years, I did go back to investment
banking for a little bit because I wanted a little
bit of a nest egg. But I was really full time
in the search and rescue world. And so that was
wilderness stuff. And so in 2000, that was like
right around 2005, I started that. My mentor
in that space was a woman named Elise who became
my wife in 2009. And it changed my life because
there was this idea of like, let's go do this
professionally. What else is out there? So I
went and got my EMT and I'm like, hey, I kind
of like medicine. And then I said, well, I'm
not doing anything right now. I'm not really
working. I'll go get my paramedic license. And
so I got my paramedic license. I was lucky enough
to know some people on the FEMA task force locally,
and they invited me to do my internship. at their
fire department and then a couple years later
i get hired where i am right now so um that dog
really kind of led me on a whole nother path
i was lucky enough to be on the fema task force
before i was ever a firefighter so um it was
really the idea of not of knowing i just don't
want this anymore that led me to do something
different so talk to me about the kind of scope
of practice of the search and rescue canine side
because i mean i know you know in law enforcement
obviously you get everything from you know the
swat dogs all the way through to the beagles
that are sniffing your suitcase in the airport
talk to me about that spectrum in in our world
okay so in california the the search dog world
is divided into the law side and the fire side
so on the law side you have um essentially the
folks who go looking for individual missing people
So that's the lost hiker, the dementia patient,
you name it, the little kid who's lost in the
woods, the abduction cases, anything that may
have a criminal nexus. And it's generally volunteer
driven. And you never hear about, very rarely
do you hear about those searches. And they encompass
everything from area search dogs, which will
find anybody in 100 acres. to cadaver dogs who
will find buried small sources um you know for
a murder scene or something like that they have
the trailing dogs which everybody thinks of the
bloodhound but there's not very many bloodhounds
around anymore they're mostly shepherds and malinois
and labradors and that's sort of the different
ones they have on the law side on the fire side
where and i live in both worlds so i my dog is
certified on on in both so um the fire side is
tightly connected to the FEMA urban search and
rescue teams and the state urban search and rescue
teams. So when you think of the fireside dogs,
those are the ones that come look for you after
the building collapses on you. So we're looking
for sort of an individual who went and got themselves
lost. We're looking for people who were victims
of a collapsed structure from an earthquake,
a hurricane, a mudslide, a fire. And in that
fire world we have, it's a clear separation between
the lifine dogs who only search for missing living
human beings and the cadaver dogs. And they only
search for missing deceased human beings. And
so most of the work these days is in that human
remains detection. And that's everything from
the Paradise Fire where, you know, we lost 85
people to the Montecito mudslides to... This
summer, we were down in Texas for the flooding
that happened on the Guadalupe River. So that's
how the worlds kind of break out. And we have
lots of people who kind of do both. But most
people kind of choose which one they want to
do, whether it's wilderness or the fireside.
What does the training look like? I've had two
German shepherds now. that can't find their own
yellow tennis ball for love nor money if i throw
it in a direction that they weren't looking at
how do you take a canine and get such acute um
senses from them when dogs exist like mine too
that clearly don't have the potential to be that
kind of dog yeah well you can probably hear a
couple dogs behind me now and these are my current
search dogs that are playing but they um it starts
with genetics and so what what we have are dogs
that make terrible pets like these are i love
my guys but they're not that fun to live with
around the house like they if you don't give
them something to do or create them they will
find something to do it's never anything you
want them to be doing they're never folding the
laundry right so um it starts with genetics The
dogs typically are on the firesides, Labrador,
Shepherds, Malinois, Border Collies, the sort
of midsize working breeds. And it's really an
art in choosing the dogs. We're going through
a change now in the search and rescue dog world
on the fireside where there's a lot of pre -trained
dogs. It's getting closer to the police model
where somebody else trains the dog. You come
in, you get a two or three week handler course
and then boom. you're on the street with your
with your dog. I did I have a master's in history,
my my thesis was on the origin and evolution
of search dogs in California. So at one point
in time, they were all search dogs. And now we've
really gone into this world of specialization.
So how we train them. has changed. It used to
be more of like a keeler method, correction -based.
Now we're really into more play -based models
where the dogs have fun. We pick dogs with incredible
drive for their toy. And really the difference
that we see in selection between the law enforcement
wilderness dogs and the USAR dogs is their ability
to be comfortable on the rubble pile. So the
Rubble Pile is an unforgiving, uncomfortable
place, unnatural for dogs to be on. And so to
take it from that flat wilderness sort of thing
into a vertical structure that's wobbly and uncomfortable,
that's where we see the differences between the
two dogs. So there's wonderful organizations
out there like the Disaster Search Dog Foundation
here in California that take dogs from shelters.
And dogs that have all those traits, they usually
are like escape artists. They've usually torn
up the house. They have all this, people call
it energy, but it's really kind of drive to go
do something. And they turn them into useful
members of society by making them search and
rescue dogs and they get to go live in the firehouse.
So it's fantastic programs like that. I've sourced
my dogs from people like Michael Ellis, who I
think is the best trainer in the world, who breeds
Malinois. And then I've also found them from
people who just being in the dog world say my
dog is too much and has killed a couple of cats
here in the Castro and that's not good. And so
do you want this dog? And I said, yeah, I'll
take that dog. That's something I could work
with. And so we kind of find them all over the
place. Sounds like firefighters too, like a high
energy. breaking things a lot like i probably
become a firefighter yeah it's not it's not too
different they rest a little bit less than the
firefighters but yeah it's not too different
Well, talk to me then about some of the notable
deployments. I had Beth Bowersox on a few years
ago now. She was a dispatcher, one of the dispatchers
at the Paradise Fire, for example. So had some
powerful kind of stories from Katrina and some
of these other huge events. What are some of
the stories that you witnessed firsthand? Not
only the dog, but obviously yourself, the handler
as well. So one of the big ones we went to was
a Montecito debris flow. And that was one where
I believe there's 23 people killed. And they
had trouble finding like the last five or six.
The debris path was over a mile long. It went
from the top of the mountain all the way down
to the ocean. And it was mud everywhere. So it's
one of those things that we always, you're always
fighting the last war in your training. Meaning
we in California, we're all expecting the big
earthquake, right? The concrete tilt up. Now
when you put us in an environment of just mud.
You can't create that training environment. And
so that was notable because my dog, George, and
I had embarked on a different way to train. And
there was some really good validation that our
training methods worked. I've always been blessed
with having a mentor appear at the right time
in my life. And so I had taken sort of a right
-hand turn away from sort of traditional training
methods to work with this mentor of mine. And
on that search, you never really know if you're
doing the right thing. It's sort of like parenting
until you get into the real world. And unfortunately,
the truth with search and rescue dogs is a lot
of times the Lifine dogs get maybe one deployment
in their lifetime. I've retired two dogs with
zero deployments. So to get out and do it in
the real world at Montecito was a really big
one for us. And we were successful there. So
that validated some training methods for me.
After that was the Paradise Fire. The Paradise
Fire was, you know, I had responded. My first
disaster was a San Bruno pipeline explosion,
which killed a bunch of people here in San Bruno.
They thought it was a plane crash, but it was
really a PG &E. Maine that exploded. And that
was one thing. That was like a localized, like
one block of a neighborhood burned down, two
blocks of a neighborhood. Paradise was, you know,
three cities that were destroyed, whether it
was Paradise, Concow, or Megalia. And that became
mentally challenging because we would drive up
from Chico and the entire town was nuked. There
was just disaster everywhere. It would be 20
minutes of driving and all it was was burnt homes.
So the sheer size of that was challenging. The
mental part of it when we arrived there as part
of my task force was there were 1 ,500 people
reported missing at the time in 15 ,000 homes.
So you're thinking in your mind, I should be
finding somebody in one every 10 homes or so.
And when you don't, that becomes sort of a mental
mind fuck, so to speak, because you wonder what's
wrong with your dog. Are we doing this right?
Are we missing people? We are going to be the
only chance of actually finding people because
we don't have enough teams to come back and do
a secondary sweep. Well, it turned out there
was 85 people who died in that fire. And so the
dogs did well. There were some. big improvements
that needed to happen afterwards. But it was
certainly notable for me just based on the size.
And that started me down a path of there should
not be such a big divide between the law enforcement
wilderness handlers and the fire urban search
and rescue handlers. And I'm still fighting that
battle today. You know, there's always that,
you know, cops versus firefighters saying this.
you know dog people are notoriously mean to each
other um and they like their little clicks and
i hate that and i think it it does no service
to the the search dog practice to have these
little camps rather than all of us working together
so paradise was a big one um and then we did
my team went down to The Palisades fire, I was
not a part of that because we had some staffing
issues at my department, so they wouldn't let
me go. And then the Texas floods, that was a
21 -day deployment, so that was a very long deployment
for the dogs. We learned how to work in some
heat, and we were asked to do things that we
don't normally do, like work off of boats and
things like that. It seems like every time we
get a pretty big disaster, there's huge lessons
to learn and you go back and change your training.
It's amazing to hear because it's just an area
that we don't hear very much about at all. One
of my captains in Anaheim when I worked out in
California was an arson investigator and he had
an arson dog, I think. No, I think it was a USAR
dog. Actually, I take that back. But going back
to what you're talking about. This is the problem,
I think, with, you know, I think this is one
of the symptoms of the downward spiral of the
fire services recruitment and retention, which
I'm assuming was probably behind why you didn't
go to the Palisades, is we have counties and
cities that don't talk to each other, FD, FD.
We have FD, PD. And there's one mission, you
know, to protect the people that we serve in
this entire nation. So the moment you create
these silos and you break down communication.
You know, the higher chance there is of a Novaldi
or a Parkland or whatever the, you know, God
forbid disaster where a lot of people died, partly
because of lack of leadership and communication.
So it makes perfect sense. I mean, I had Mike
Goosby on the show, who's LAPD. canine guru,
you know, I'm sure you and him in a room and
have all kinds of things and knowledge to share,
you know, if we can break down these silos and
these walls and get rid of the egos that exist
in some of these communities so that we can just,
as you said, the rising side, rising tide lifts
all ships. It's the same in our profession too.
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I mentioned
there's a couple mentors that just showed up
at the right time. And one was a guy named Don
Urnell and Don started the LA police dog program.
Back in the 80s. And he had a contract to teach
to Oakland PD. And so he actually stayed at my
house, you know, and for months at a time. And
so every night would be like sitting on the knee
of a master. And he would explain this entirely
different training methodology, which I employed
with my dog, George, when we went to Montecito.
So every once in a while, you need somebody to
step up and sort of break down some barriers
and say. we're all doing the same thing here,
guys. We all need to be a little bit better.
And so that's what I'm trying to do. It's one
of my pet projects as a search and rescue dog
handler is to create the bridge to the other
side because there's nothing better than when
we show up in Texas to be able to pick up the
phone and go, hey, Shirley, I know you're here
as well. What's really happening? What do we
need to know? What do we need to bring? And have
a friendship there. And not this sort of, you
know, I hate to say dick measuring, but there's
a dick measuring contest that happens at all
of these types of things. And it's terrible.
Absolutely. Well, that's obviously the dog specific
deployments. Let's just kind of walk through
up to where we are now as far as the other side.
So notable calls, fires, et cetera, in your career
that didn't involve the canine. So I work as
a captain paramedic right now on our USAR in
my city. And so most of my calls that I would
say are notable are on the medical side. The
fires have become so, so rare that it's hard
to even call ourselves a fire department, really,
because we do so much more. So I've had I've
had calls with. um obviously the kids calls nobody
likes those but when i i went out on ptsd for
a while and one of the calls i remember was a
13 year old who hung herself and i was working
as the medic on the usar at the time so i was
the second medic in and she hung herself in the
laundry room of their their house and i work
in a in a nice really nice area like that medium
home price is a couple million bucks she hung
herself in the laundry room this 13 year old
girl with a dog leash and something about that
dog leash i just could not get out of my mind
and i can't recall a lot of details of that call
i can't tell you exactly who was there i can
tell you the medicines i pushed i can tell you
what the mom sounded like screaming. And, you
know, we oftentimes talk about what we see with
these PTSD things, but for me, it's always the
smells and the sounds that bring me back. And
we don't talk about that too much, about walking
into the Home Depot and the click of their AC
unit is the same click right before the tones
drop at one of our stations. And all of a sudden
you get that adrenaline dump just from that going
off. So like I said, just get back to your question.
There's been a ton of medical calls. I've had
jumpers. I've had train versus pedestrian. I've
had lots of those. But through my own therapy
and my own growth and some of the things I've
done, what I've learned is that very few of the
things that really bother us. go back to actually
going in the rooms again. A lot of it comes from
childhood and the armor we've put on or the relationships
that hurt us. And so every firefighter you've
had on the show has the terrible calls that none
of us really want to talk about again. But it's
more than that that I think causes a lot of the
issues for first responders. Absolutely. well
walk me through that then you mentioned about
going out on ptsd for a while what was your kind
of roller coaster mental health journey prior
to psychedelics so i mentioned that i was kind
of searching starting back from like 2001 you
know i i had um i was in new york for 9 11 i
was down by the pile on september 12th and they
were asking for ironworkers and ems and those
people were being allowed to access the pile
and nobody was asking for a banker or cpa and
i felt a sense of uselessness um that i had no
real skills no hard skills like nobody needs
an audit right now nobody needs a fundraiser
right now so that's sort of where it started
um and then it was the seeking thing it was getting
the dog and then thinking okay i'll i'll I'll
be a helper. I'll go be a firefighter. And that
was fantastic until 2016 when I hurt my back
for the first time. And I was off for about nine
months with an L5S1 microdiscectomy surgery.
So not a major surgery, but a surgery nonetheless.
And part of that was inability to sleep. So back
then we had Fitbits. i would wear to kind of
distract because i was curious and for a couple
months it would be an hour and a half to two
hours a night of sleep and the rest of time i
was uncomfortable so as part of this in 2016
it was here's some norco some painkillers um
let us know if this doesn't work so you proceed
from the you know from the five norcos to the
ten norcos and you know, by the time I was ready
to come back to work, they were giving me morphine,
morphine pills, just, you know, here's a couple
bottles after your surgery, just, you know, try
not to take a bunch at the same time, because,
you know, it could kill you. And you don't want
to get addicted. Like I, nobody sets out for
addiction, but there is a physical addiction
that is inevitable that comes with that. So,
you know, at that time, I was not sleeping, I
was Definitely addicted. And there was that question
about whether I could come back or not. Who am
I if I'm not a firefighter? Where's my community?
Me and my wife were not getting along. Now my
ex -wife. We're not getting along very well at
the time. So there's all these things sort of
happening. And I felt very, very lost. Kind of
like a who am I moment. So, you know, the best
thing I could do was to get myself back to work
and give me something to do, I thought. So, you
know, after my back surgery, my back wasn't hurting
anymore, but I was definitely taking all those
pills. And they said, well, you can't go back
to work until you're off all these meds. And
so I said, all right, well, I could do that.
So I locked myself in a room at my house for
about two weeks and about a day and a half in.
I said, man, I think I'm getting, I think I'm
coming down with the flu. And it hit me then
that I was dope sick. Like I was a legit addict.
And so I was able to, to stick with it. And,
and I haven't taken those, those type of painkillers
since, but it was definitely a humbling thing
that I, who I thought very highly of could get
myself addicted to something without me even
really knowing it was happening. And all of a
sudden it was like an, Oh shit, I'm. I'm freaking
addicted to these. Like I have a physical problem
getting off of these. So I thought everything
would be great. I went back to work and had the
tough calls and got sort of put into more senior
positions in the department. And something was
still nagging me. And, you know, at the time.
My marriage wasn't particularly good. And I didn't
have some of the tough conversations. And I met
a woman. She made me feel very alive. Had an
affair. And it was the worst thing I could ever
do. Like, it was such a violation of who I was
as a person. And such a letdown to myself that
I could... let myself fall that far and I could
do something that I never thought I would ever
ever do and that's have an affair with somebody
else and step out on my wife and I don't think
things would have worked out with my ex -wife
but this certainly was you know the hammer that
that cracked it all and um I wish I hadn't done
that but what did happen in that was That feeling
of being alive, of being loved was overwhelming.
And it made me realize that had been missing
for a long time. So the thing about putting the
armor on is you're protected from the outside,
but it also prevents all those feelings from
getting through, the good feelings. It prevents
those feelings from coming out. And I was basically
numb at the time. And I was doing whatever I
could to numb myself, whether that's opioids,
whether that's online shopping, whether it's
the womanizing. And all of that was to avoid
those feelings that were just below the surface.
And I've met a lot of guys that will cry in their
car at that one song, but would never cry at
home talking to their loved ones. And so my wife
and I split up. I became one of the statistics
of firefighters who have an ex -wife. And that
seems like most of us these days. And it was
all my fault. And now I was still on that path
of like, how did I become that person that would
ever step out on my wife? And, you know, we talked
about the dog stuff and the dog world is very,
very small. A little bit of time went by. I met
my current wife, Angela, who is a saint and is
no question the one I should be with. And I was
back at work and things were going well. And
then I hurt my back again. And this was the second
sort of major back injury. And for most people
in the fire service, a couple back injuries,
a couple back surgeries, you're pretty much done,
right? You know, at first, it's great. I'm in
this relationship with Angela and she's off work
because she also has a back injury. You know,
Angela is also a firefighter and and happy hour
starts at five. And, you know, then happy hour
starts at three and then it's noon. And before
you know it, every time you go to the store,
you're having to restock on high noons. And and
it was like, oh, man. I think I got a problem
again. because I would look forward to that drink
every day, that first drink. And then I went
through a little bit of a change and I'm like,
okay, I'm going to fix this. I'll start using
gummies. Gummies are better. The weed is healthier.
It's, you know, I'm not taking in all those calories.
That'll be better. And then you realize, like,
I shouldn't need a gummy every day. Back to what's
wrong with me, what's going on. So the dog world's
small. And I had a friend named Jimmy. Jimmy
was a dog handler with SEAL Team 6 and now helps
working dogs with his nonprofit. And we would
have really honest conversations. Jimmy wrote
a book called Touching the Dragon, which I read.
And in it, he pretty much... opens up everything
about his failures you know what happened to
him after he got shot and he doesn't hold back
and that idea that he could talk about those
things that were hurting him that that really
inspired me so jimmy and i became friends and
jimmy could see i was hurting and he sort of
put his arm around me and gave me a card and
said hey here's the number to martine from mission
within Michigan Within will help you guys. And
so we went down that path. And Angela was the
first to go down there and go down to sneak across
the border, do the medicine. And the change in
her was immediate. And she was kind enough not
to overshare her experience. So I did not develop
expectations for my own journey. It's life -changing,
man. And when I was through my journey, I was
so at peace with everything and very angry that
it took knowing like a SEAL Team 6 guy to be
able to access this medicine and even hear about
it because nobody was really talking about it
back then. And the funding, the finances to be
able to go forward to do it. And so that's when
Angela and I started the Siren Project because
we could not keep this to ourselves. Talk to
me about after the experience. One of the things
that I hear a lot when it comes to psychedelics
is, you know, some people will do the journey
and then that's kind of it. And the integration
piece is missing. um and the people that seem
to have a lot of a lot of success recently as
there's the wisdom dojo um you know where they're
focusing on the breath work and the meditation
and the journaling and and then obviously amplifying
the healing that you see what did you feel immediately
post journey and then you know what was your
experience as far as um continuing that healing
without having to keep revisiting journeys all
the time um You touched on integration is the
most important piece of this. And so much energy
and focus is on the journey itself. And at the
end, that's really a very, very small portion
of the whole thing. So I knew there was a change
in me as soon as I got to the airport in Mexico.
And I'll tell you why. Because normally when
I'm in an airport, I'm sitting there and I'm
looking at, oh my God, what is she wearing? How
did she think she can get away with that? like
who do these people like wow that guy's really
fat and my judgments were gone i had zero negative
judgments um i had this very clear realization
that we are all connected we truly are all brothers
and sisters and that sort of i felt lighter that
that desire to judge or put myself higher than
other people was gone And so that's when I knew
it was working. And that's when I knew that there
really was something to this. The integration
part really is where the rubber meets the road,
though, because for a lot of people, they talk
about the pink cloud and the first couple of
weeks after journey, everything is great and
magical. And you're on this elevated feeling
while you have all this neuroplasticity going
on. But if you don't stick with it and change
your underlying habits. then it just becomes
an interesting story of the time you went down
to Mexico and did drugs. So this is medicine
and this is meant to be like a lifelong thing.
And you've never heard anybody in the gym say,
I have achieved fitness. I no longer have to
come to the gym, right? Yet in mental health,
it's, I want to be fixed or cured. And there
is no fix because as soon as you have dealt with
that issue, that you think you're there for,
it opens up for more things that, okay, well
that's, everybody thinks they're coming down
because of that one call or that one kid or,
but it's very rarely about that. It's usually
all about something you have been avoiding thinking
about for a long, long time. And so that integration
is where we make the daily practices change so
that you can maintain that feeling. and that
change in your life. And that starts with, you
know, there's, there's the things we do to keep
people present. So that could be meditation.
That could be horse therapy. For me, it's dog
training. But the gratitude practice that we
have people learn is really where, where we see
the change. You know, we have 70 ,000 thoughts
a day that go through your brain. About 75 %
of them are negative thoughts and about half
of those are rumination. So why didn't I do this?
Why did I say to that person? Why am I dressed
like this? Why am I fat? And that sort of negative
talk your body listens to. And so as we change
that to more gratitude practices, we can realize
how blessed our life really is because we all
lose it. None of us wake up in the morning and
say. I'm so grateful I can open my eyes and see
today. I'm so grateful I'm here in this warm
bed. I'm so grateful that when I step off the
bed, I have two healthy legs that I can walk
to get coffee in my kitchen. We have no appreciation
for all the wonderful things we have, especially
here in the United States. I mean, that literally
nails it. I mean, it really does. Because when
you think about some of the practices that outside
of... Any of these retreats that we're told are
good for you. And this is one thing I do every
morning is the five minute journal. And it literally
is forcing you to do that because I'll sit on
my back porch and be three things that I'm grateful
for. And after a few days, you don't want to
repeat it either. So then you're like, well,
the birds that I can hear right now. Yeah. The
fact that I have clothes, you know, big one,
my child's health. I mean, and then all of a
sudden you're reframing everything. And then
the kind of as, you know, alluding to. where
your world was 20 years prior, that consumerism,
that worshipping of the holy monopoly, all of
a sudden just seems so wrong and ridiculous.
But I could not agree more. We are by far the
most fortunate company, I'm sorry, company, as
a Freudian slip, country, you know, on the planet,
really, if you look at it. As far as the opportunities,
as far as the national wealth, we're so, so fortunate
you were born here and not Syria or Gaza or insert
somewhere where your home might be vaporized
as we speak. But we have absolutely lost that.
So if these journeys did nothing but reframed
your gratitude for what you have, that alone.
on a mental health element is groundbreaking,
not to mention then starting to address the trauma
that you didn't even realize, you know, as I
always say, the pee beneath the mattress. When
you start seeing that, that you were so focused
on that triple PD fatality that you had, and
you didn't realize that your father leaving when
you were five was actually the biggest, you know,
crack in your foundation. Now, I mean, you can
just see all the layers of potential healing
if, as you alluded to, You see them and then
you keep working on them. And then as you turn
the page, oh, there's this other thing. Okay,
well, let me start leaning into that too as well.
Yeah, absolutely. And my own journey, I have
this idea that it'd be great to be finished,
but it's never going to be finished. There's
more and more. And at some point, for some of
us, it becomes almost fun to take these. onion
peels off and find out what's underneath because
the the simple fact of it for most americans
we don't truly know who we are like who we really
really are we're more products of of the environment
and the consumerism and how we were raised and
the expectations put on us and all the things
that we were told would make us happy are very
rarely the things that actually make us happy
One thing that I've started talking about when
it comes to physical and mental health, all things
firefighter health, is if you look at SEAL Team
6, I've had numerous guys from the Tier 1 organizations
on the show. They have psychologists, nutritionists,
strength and conditioning trainers, neuroscientists,
all these people working with them to forge the
highest level of performance. Now, day in, day
out, our first responders are asked to do life
-saving interventions. our strength and conditioning
psychology conversations are well they keep dying
so how do we how do we stop them dying as much
and there's such a chasm between that and performance
so where i'm excited is you know well let's talk
about forging performance and if we do that the
the you know the byproduct will be if anyone's
struggling well these same tools are going to
help pull them from there as well it's the same
conversation yep post journey What did you and
Angela start experiencing as far as your ability
to do the job, just your sheer performance post,
you know, post retreat? So there's, there's a,
man, that is, that's a big one, right? Cause
like, how does, does it actually mean anything
at the end of the day? So how I was able to do
the job, I I'd like to start by saying I was
able to get back to my job. So during my second
back injury, I was also, uh, I took, time off
for ptsd also through the workers comp process
in the past that has sort of been the death of
your career right like once you're on a ptsd
clean claim there are departments that just will
never send you back to the line and i didn't
want that to be me um and in fact even today
around my department i've heard things like we've
never had a ptsd claim and i'm here like hey
i i did like i need to be i'm out there with
like i was on a ptsd claim and i came back So
it's important for people who are out there to
not have that idea that you can't come back.
So the medicine, number one, helps me get back
to my job and get back to my job way faster than
I ever would had I gone down the SSRI and talk
therapy route for me. It might not be true for
everybody, but for me, it was a much faster route
back. But what we don't talk about is. how you
relate with your environment then. So one of
the things the medicine gives you is space between
action and reaction. So for firefighters, that
can mean I can sit there at a traumatic, chaotic
scene and have the presence of mind to be calm
and see everything around me and make the right
decision and not the emotional, I'm amped up
decision. So that creates a safer place. But
what it does on a person to person is my compassion
levels for my patients are through the roof.
We all have the patient who calls twice a day
and never really has anything wrong, the frequent
flyer. And those people burn out firefighters.
And what I've found is I have way more gas in
the tank. for some of those calls that are ridiculous.
But I also have a lot more compassion for grandma
who fell out of bed. And this isn't, you know,
two 30 in the morning, let's get up so we can
all get back to bed, get her back in her bed,
wham, bam, see you later. I actually, you know,
I want her to be, I see her situation and she's
alone. And sometimes she just wants to talk to
somebody and that's okay. I can be that person.
I've totally reframed how I think about death
and the dying process. So, you know, in my journey,
I think I experienced what it was like to die.
And when people die, they get, you know, a huge
rush of DMT is what we've seen. Having experienced
that. I get a glimpse of what it was like for
them to die, what it's like to feel the expansiveness
of the universe, to go into the light. And I
can sit with that now. And it's not a sad thing.
Death is just part of this. And so, you know,
we go on codes and we have every once in a while
you're able to make a save, but that's usually
not the case. And that's just the realism of
the job. And so to sit with that person as they
pass and hold space for them while they go through
that giant DMT dump that happens as they transition
is a blessing and an honor to be able to do.
And I don't see that now as I'm the last person
and their only chance to live. It's I'm somebody
who can help them transition to what is after
this. And that has unburdened me from a lot of
the... Was it my fault? Should I have done more?
Did we do everything? When people need to transition,
they transition. And that's good for me to be
there as a calm, peaceful, safe place for them
to do it. Not a chaotic, violent, loud sort of
space. And I will do everything I can to save
somebody. But I'm also very comfortable that
I can be the last person there sitting with them
when they die. And that's what everybody deserves.
I had an Australian firefighter on Matt McLaughlin
who was doing MDMA therapy and it was actually
offered again, kind of like the workman's comp,
which was pretty phenomenal over there, but he
had a very similar experience and he'd had everything
from losing his father and actually doing CPR
on him all the way through to some of the calls
and it completely reframed him. And it wasn't
like we'd heard a lot with MDMA where it's kind
of, you know, dampering the the response but
it's the talk therapy that goes along with it
that's really you know the making the biggest
impact it was actually the experience and he
didn't have a lot of talking but he revisited
some of these tragic deaths and even when he
was in the military he had to kill a couple people
and it was turned into that they were grateful
for him being there at that point you know like
you said to hold space when they when they were
transitioning so A lot of these different compounds,
5 -MeO -DMT and ayahuasca and MDMA, you're hearing
these very similar responses. And I think that
compassion and empathy, what do we hear about?
Compassion fatigue. We all know that burnt out,
angry medic that, you know, you have to pull
away from the scene before he gets arrested.
You know, that's not who we were when we were
in fire academy or paramedic school, you know.
Exactly. And I think a really important conversation
is knowing that most of us that toe the line.
in the first responder, in the military, et cetera,
have childhood trauma. And that's okay if it's
addressed. So why are we not having the conversation
in the first day of orientation saying, the fact
that you are here when 99 % of the population
doesn't want to do this job is admirable. But
there are things that you've experienced as you
progress through your childhood. that we want
to start working through the same way as when
we PT you on the drawground, we want to work
on your strength and your mobility. So having
those conversations, that expectation at the
front door and using counseling sessions to start
that conversation, reduce the barrier to entry
and develop a relationship with a counselor,
I think would be amazing. And then, you know,
as we progress forward, some of these tools that
you're talking about being available to process
things if needed. Now you're taking that trauma
that we had when we were young and you're turning
it into a superpower and forging a high level
of performance as a firefighter paramedic. I
mean, there are some basic changes that I think
need to happen in the fire service if we want
to be able to continue. Because we certainly
have a recruiting crisis. And we certainly, and
that's because people are smart, right? Like
we've done a great job of talking about our cancer
rates. We've done a great job of talking about
our divorce rates. Now people are talking about
the mandatory rates that happen for their overtime.
And we've, in California, changed the pension
system so you can't retire until you're 57. And
so we're at a point where people, there's no
point for them applying until they're 27, at
which point you've learned that, hey, cancer
can be a real thing. And you've learned that,
hey, maybe I'm already a manager at Google making
$400 ,000 a year. It's hard to transition to
a government paying job. And now we've been better
at talking about the mental health that comes
with this. So we have this underlying recruiting
process because just like fire prevention, we've
done a good job out there telling people about
the problems of the profession. To me, if we
can have a day one of Fire Academy, let's talk
about resiliency. Let's talk about building your
community of people that are not just other first
responders, not other cops and firefighters who
are outside and have sort of normal lives. And
let's talk about which therapists you want to
start seeing. So here's the list of people that
we think are culturally competent. Choose from
one here or choose from somewhere else. But you're
going to do a phone call and get to know them.
And you're going to put their phone number in
your phone. And that's normal. And then we need
to normalize these conversations around the kitchen
table where we solve all the problems. But one
thing we don't really talk about is, wow, man,
that call really had trouble sleeping last night
after that call. You don't hear that still. And
so, you know, we've done things where I will
try to take certain parts that I think can be
talked about that we talk about in our retreats
and do a gratitude practice. Okay, everybody
go around the table. If you feel like it, say
one thing you're grateful for today. But we are
so far behind the curve now. You know, suicide
rates are up 500%. for first responders. Even
when they occur in departments, there's not always
significant change that happens. We still want
to sweep it all. We don't even know the number
of suicides there are, right? So we don't have
that VA where they can follow people and retirees
and say, hey, we don't have a 22 or 44 suicides
a day. We don't know how big the problem is.
And so that would be a huge start is to actually
see what the facts are and accept the facts for
what they are and not pretend like they're not
happening or not pretend it's not going to happen
to us because it is going to happen to us. And
so one of the great things for me about being
in this space is I entered the fire service thinking
I was going to go save some people, that whole
hero thing, not knowing what it's actually about.
There is no doubt that I will save more people
through the work that we do at the Siren Project
than I ever will at a fire or on an EMS call.
And that makes me really close to the trauma.
And it gives me a lot of good feelings that I'm
actually making a difference. I've said the same
thing, you know, obviously transitioning out
and I left. Simply because I realized that you
can't force change from within the castle walls.
You've got to get outside and knock them down
with a bat ring ram. But it's that force multiplier
like the Green Berets talk about. If I run one
call as a firefighter paramedic, then that's
amazing. But the moment I leave, another warm
body is going to be there. What can I do to help?
the fire service in general, so that, you know,
hundreds of thousands of people can run calls
and then, you know, have a healthy career. And,
you know, I want to get into the siren project,
but this is why I beat the drum so much with
the work week is knowing that sleep deprivation
is behind, you know, suicide, addiction, depression,
you know, divorces. I mean, when you tell your
kids, you can't go home, you tell your spouse,
you can't go home. You don't think that has an
issue. And knowing that that is one of the big
pieces as well, all the money that's being lost,
the millions and millions and millions of dollars
downstream from the overtime that's forced and
the lack of retention, you just put in a fourth
shift. Now you've added another entire recovery
process. Now people are testing for you again.
Now the vacancies are filled, which we're seeing
now. I just saw, I think it was Bloomingfield,
Illinois. Just had a news piece on how their
recruitment's gone through the roof now since
they transitioned to that new schedule. So you
bring that in. Now you talk about the mental
health stuff and now you put in a fitness standard
and now you're just adding layer upon layer upon
layer. And to your point, now you're saving all
these first responders lives who then in turn
are going to go in a full career and save numerous
lives. And you're going to hopefully. help them
retain a healthy marriage, a great relationship
with their children. And then with that domino
that we're talking about, which is an absolute
pandemic when it comes to our profession, you
stop your own dominoes falling on your children
too. Absolutely. That idea of your children and
doing it for your children really reframes how
we're looking at it. I'm not trying to do this
to... save myself i'm doing this so i don't pass
along all my crap to my son and you know the
way we look at it is if if there were programs
that that really look we were all really good
about saying follow the science and trust the
science in 2020 right but we don't do that here
and that's that's a very frustrating part when
we look at things like operator syndrome and
now firefighter syndrome and that fatigue plus
musculoskeletal injuries plus the transition
to and from work every week plus working in the
environment where you live all that stuff we
call it ptsd but because ptsd is in the dsm but
it's much more than that it really is a syndrome
and angela and i look at what we do with the
siren project is sort of like um We're the surgeon
at the end of your workers' comp process, right?
So if you could have had a resiliency program
early in your career, if you had outlets of talking
to a therapist throughout your career, you may
not ever need to come to see us. But we're here
if you need it. But it's not the easy way. And
that's what people really need to understand
is that going to do this medicine is, it's a...
it's nobody is doing it for fun it is a rough
journey and and it would be great if we were
never needed right like i would love in five
years if the siren project didn't exist because
you can get this through workers comp and they
did it the right way and and you know we we didn't
go have to go out and beat the drum to raise
funds to go help first responders that would
be the ultimate for me i don't need to be here
in five years continuing to do this But it needs
to be available. And that's where we come in.
Well, let's talk about that then. So Angela went
on the journey. You went on the journey. You
know, you realize that this is something that
a lot more people need to experience. Talk to
me about the creation of the Siren Project. And
then let's talk about what you offer the people
listening. Sure. So, you know, we go to Mexico
for the medicine. And, you know, when I got back.
I just could not believe, like I said, that I
needed to know somebody at that level to access
this medicine and that this wasn't something
being discussed with my therapist. Like my therapist
never told me like, hey, why don't you go check
out this? We're getting a lot of success down
doing psychedelics. Like I had to go find this
myself. And it was only because I'm curious.
And a lot of people who are really going through
it and in the depths of their depression and
PTSD and. They don't have the ability to go figure
that out. Nor do they have the ability to figure
out where to go to do it and who can I trust.
So there are places out there that are sketchy.
There's a lot of people I know who went to their
cousin's best friend's garage down the street
to do psychedelics. And that is not the right
setting for this. So we go in tribes. We believe
healing happens in a community. And so everybody
who goes down with us is a first responder of
some sort. So that's a firefighter, police officer,
dispatch, EMS, search and rescue. But then we
also send their spouse, if the spouse wants to
go, to a different retreat. We don't send spouses
together. Because a lot of us first responders
are really good at thinking that we're holding
it together at home and that our spouse doesn't
really know how bad it is. Trust me, they know
how bad it is. And they know that they've been
walking on eggshells around you as well. So the
healing has to happen within the family. And
we do it down in Mexico because we think that
is the right place to do it for a whole host
of reasons. And making that pilgrimage is a lot
different than what appears to be the future
of psychedelics in the United States, where we
have a clinic next to your Starbucks and you
go do the medicine and then you go home to your
kids that day. I don't think that's the right
way to do it. So we're set up a little bit differently,
but the results we've seen are phenomenal. And
I think how you approach the medicine and how
you work with the medicine are key components
in making sure we have the success we're looking
for, which is not two weeks, but it's for two
years or 20 years. And for most of our respondents,
this is one of the most significant events of
their life that ranks close to their child or
their wedding day. or their parents dying. I
had a firefighter that I was connected to, and
he went to a retreat. This one is in the US,
but it's in a church, it's a sacrament. It's
very much the same kind of experience that you're
talking about. It just happened to be domestic.
And I ended up talking to him after, and he said
it was a two -day experience. The first day,
he did the medicine. He's like, this is bullshit.
And this is a person who had struggled between
sobriety and, you know, and addiction. And the
conversation basically was, if this doesn't work,
then he's pretty much done. Meaning, you know,
he's going to take his own life. So day one,
nothing. This is bullshit. This is stupid. It's
not working. I knew it was all, you know, snake
oil. And he goes to me, but James, on day two,
just kind of like you alluded to, he said. including
the birth of my own children, this was the most
powerful experience of my life. And he went from,
you know, alcoholism to the other side again,
you know, on this, this firm platform again.
So I've heard those stories over and over again.
I know that there's three, three people that
went through the cohort through the podcast to
at least two of my guests on here that have gone
through the siren project. And I had the same
exact phone calls with them. what a powerful
experience it was so i know people whose lives
you have saved literally and it's it's so amazing
to hear before we go to the kind of financial
side talk to me about the history of the medicine
and which ones you use in mexico okay so um i'm
a i'm a history guy like i mentioned i got my
master's in history this last year through harvard
and so i get really intrigued by by how some
of this stuff really works so um I'm going to
go back a little bit, but we use psilocybin and
we use 5 -MeO -DMT, which is the toad. And that's
our usual ceremony. Every once in a while, we'll
do an ayahuasca ceremony. But what most people
will be receiving, again, we don't decide if
people get the medicine. Our facilitator down
in Mexico decides whether you will actually get
the medicine. We just send people on the retreat.
You know, when you look at psilocybin, if you
go way back, go back to 1492, Columbus discovers
North America, maybe, but we'll go with the history
book version. He goes back and, you know, the
Pope was sort of the king of the world at the
time, and he had a lot of power. So Pope Alexander
creates this papal bull called the Intercatera,
which basically divides. the rest of the world
between Portugal and Spain. And so he said, Spain,
you get everything sort of west of this. Portugal
is everything east of that. Go forth, conquer,
spread the religion, and make sure all the savages
out there become Catholics. So Spain does that.
And Cortes heads to Mexico and in 1521 conquers
the Aztec people in Mexico City. And so we have
this now state where the natives, the Aztecs,
are forced to convert and their practices go
away. So we have a couple of friars who write
about it. This is how we know about it. And Bernardino
de Salguan was one of them. And he wrote about
mushroom ceremonies. where they were using local
mushrooms for medicinal purposes for and during
these ceremonies people would laugh they would
cry they would dance and and they decided that
that was no good because nobody should have a
direct route to speak to god if they're not going
through the the priests in the church so it became
banned shortly after the conquest of Mexico in
1521. And it went underground. And we don't see
it reemerge until the 1950s with Maria Sabina,
who was a Mazatec healer, who let a Westerner
into one of those. That person's name was Howard
Wasson. He was an investment banker from New
York. an amateur sort of mycologist who had read
the writings of that friar and decided he wanted
to go look for these magic mushrooms. And he
did. And he was invited into this ceremony by
Maria Sabina under some kind of false pretenses
that he was looking for his son. His son was
missing. He had needs. And with a promise that
he would never tell anybody that he did this.
Well, Howard Watson went back to New York and
he wrote, A big article in Life magazine that
was published in, I think, 1957. And from then
on, it was like a mad rush to get down to the
Mazatec region to meet Maria Sabina. And you
had everybody from the Beatles to you name it
down there trying to get this psychedelic experience.
And the people of Mexico had something that they
were protecting for 500 years, essentially stolen
from them. and given to the world and for me
that sort of colonizing effect um is something
that we need to be careful of and so we do we
do our retreats in mexico because we use healers
that have that lineage of 500 years plus of holding
this wisdom and how the medicine works And to
me, that pilgrimage of it being sort of a pain
to get down to Mexico, it takes a day. You know,
it's not like doing it at a resort spot here,
but it is important to your own healing process
that you go down there, you make the pilgrimage
for yourself. And these indigenous locals perform,
it's very ceremonial, everything from a sweat
lodge to a flower bath. to hape to the medicine
itself is all done very respectfully and we use
the local indigenous people to do so because
they they deserve it right they've held this
this medicine for a long long time and i don't
think it should be this idea that you have the
right to heal in america to me is a bit of hogwash
um you don't have the right to anything this
these medicines were a gift And when you start
saying you have rights to anything, that changes
it. We are incredibly blessed that God, the greater
power, the great spirit has placed this medicine
here for us to heal. And so I don't want medicine
served, and I hate to say this, but by a white
dude who's been to three ceremonies. and now
the medicine told him he needs to be a healer
because in that we see a lot of ego now there
are a lot of great providers here in the united
states and a lot of people who do it in my opinion
the right way so i'm not trying to disparage
them but for us the closer we can do it to the
source of the medicine the more authentic and
real it is and so we use a wonderful facilitator
named dr andrea lucy somebody you should definitely
get on the show And she is the granddaughter
of Curanderas, so healers, from Chile. And she
grew up with her grandparents watching them heal.
And then when she was 17, she moved to the United
States and started working on a Marine base.
And she's one of these American success stories
where she started learning English, watching
Beavis and Butthead and around a bunch of Marines,
working in their gym as like the Zumba instructor.
all the way up to being one of the lead people
at NICO as a therapist, as a doctor. And so she
worked for the Marines for the DoD for 30 years
before the start of the GWAT, all the way up
until about 2018, she was working with wounded
veterans until she had her own sort of discussion
with her heart that she needed to go serve the
medicine in Mexico. And so we use her and she
is fantastic. I can't imagine doing it any other
way. I was having a conversation with the founder
of Ambio, the Ibogaine treatment, and Trevor
Miller. And what was interesting is if we refine
this community, I would say a lot of the people
that think that they need the psychedelic treatment
wouldn't. If we had that, it takes a village.
For example, in our profession, if we got the
firefighters the sleep that they need, we've
got these vacancies filled. So now everyone's
going home, you know, one day on. I hate that
term. 24 -72. So they're getting a 72 -hour period
of recovery. Now there's a fitness standard.
So now they're working on their health. They're
getting back down to a healthy weight. They're
spending quality time with their family. There's
a large portion that wouldn't even need, as you
said, to go to something more extreme like Ibogaine
or, you know, Ayahuasca or et cetera. And then
that frees up that amount for the people that
are further down that road, you know, that maybe
are starting to struggle with addiction or having
suicide ideation and nothing else is working.
And I think that's what we need to reserve this
for. So there's an amazing opportunity for this
psychedelic conversation, in my opinion, to also,
you know. begin other healing conversations that
then that kind of middle group that that's that's
starting to struggle a little bit but there are
some holistic elements that will pull them away
from that and make them you know get them back
to being healthy again so therefore we're not
flooding these you know plant medicine areas
and taking you know all the cambo and all the
ibogaine away from the people that should be
having it so i think it's it's uh you know that'll
be the next next generation now is, you know,
having that, and I love that analogy that you
use, the surgeon. That's there for, God forbid,
that's the only option, but, you know, back injuries,
I use foundation training to rehab my back movement,
and it worked. And I, you know, deadlifted 305
the other day at 51. Not going to win any powerlifting
competitions, but post, you know, back injury,
no surgery, that's a testament for movement as
well. So, but... you know, if nothing worked
down the road, then yeah, there's a dystectomies
and, you know, the plates and everything else.
So I think this next conversation now is very
important. Not only, as you said, who are the
people that you would trust to do an actual proper
journey with a shaman or a guide so that you
can actually, you know, navigate what you're
seeing and thinking, but also how then can we.
use this conversation to to empower other tools
as well to heal people that really don't need
to go and do you know a deep deep dive in the
psychedelic world yeah and i think that there's
there's one other thing that we we don't really
talk about that's our retirees and that that
group of people they almost all think well i'm
going to feel better as i move away from this
and the longer i'm away from my job the less
the less i'll be bothered by those calls and
almost to a person it seems to get worse because
not only are they the thoughts still there but
you've lost your community where maybe you can
talk about it or laugh about it or the dark humor
and and a little bit of your identity has been
gone so i mean there is a problem right now that
right now the medicines we use are schedule one
drugs okay so that stops a lot of people from
seeking them It's another reason why we do it
in Mexico because then people have not broken
United States law because they're in Mexico.
But wouldn't it be a gift to send our retirees
off into the next period of their life, their
next transition, by giving them the option to
seek a healing retreat like what we offer or
what other people offer and to leave that baggage
as they transition? Personally, I don't care
if I get a stupid ax on a plaque when I retire.
I'd rather take that money and use it to something
that's going to make me a better person, better
for my family, happier, and not carrying this
weight around into the next 10, 20 years of my
retirement. Well, kind of as you were talking
about when you were on Wall Street and feeling
that need, that purpose, that's what they're
losing when they transition out. They've lost
that. identity lost that tribe but they've also
lost and i mean we've all had it that drive home
from a shift where you're like i i made a difference
today like you know i can i can sleep well at
night but also you know we all know it by the
time they get to the end of their career a lot
of our you know veterans are pretty jaded as
well And so you've lost that empathy. You've
lost that compassion. So what a beautiful reset
that would be. And not to mention, and I'd be
curious to get your kind of perspective on this,
a lot of people, I think it's the 5MEO specifically,
talk about how they felt like they were connected
to the universe and how all of a sudden, and
you kind of touched on it, how death wasn't their
own death. wasn't scary to them anymore. And
I think that would be important. You've just
transitioned out. You're 55, 60, 65, whatever
you are. You're past the halfway point now. I
think the halfway is kind of a cushion for a
lot of us when we're in our 20s or 30s. We should
be fine. But now I'm 51. My grandma was 105 almost.
I could argue, maybe, maybe still, but we're
kind of looking down the other end now. So what
another beautiful gift would be, you know, to
reframe what retirement looks like, because it's
not, you know, just playing golf every day, waiting
to die. You've got so much more to give, but
if you're exhausted and you're burnt out and
you, you know, your head is full of trauma to
be able to reset that somewhat to, to turn the
page for retirement. I agree with you a hundred
percent. It would be a beautiful gift. Yeah,
and not to mention, you know, they carry a lot
of their coping mechanisms right into retirement,
whether that's the drinking or the weed or the,
you know, being able to just sort of detach and
not really be present. So, you know, having people
go down there gives them the gift of presence
once again, so that they can actually be at home
and be with their family and not off in the world,
you know, right? I think it's a beautiful gift
that we owe them, but they have to also be ready
to accept it. Because you kind of alluded to
what I talked about a lot with the retirees and
the VA. This is what really gets me about the
statistics. And I did a presentation for St.
John's County a while ago, trying to help them
push the 24 -72. And again, back to the trust
of science, where we were told that during COVID,
most of us in the medical profession know. you
know, the efficacy of masks and, you know, microorganism
movement. There's a lot of things that we were
like, wait a second, this is not what we were
taught. What are you talking about? But with
the numbers, I was like, all right, well, let
me pull up the numbers of suicides. And it was
like, I think it was 74 in the whole of the US.
I'm pretty sure I know of that many in the state
of Florida, but these are the official numbers.
And then, and I said, you know, which group are
we not even counting? Retirees. So, you know,
the active duty of what, a 10th, maybe a 20th
of how many retirees we have around. But we do
not count any of those premature deaths. So the
cancers, the heart diseases, you know, all the
things that the addictions, the alcoholism. So
those stats, you know, do a huge disservice about
the actual magnitude of the problem. But unlike
the military, where at least the VA is trying
to take care of people after service. The moment
that bay door closes behind us, that's it. A
year of Cobra and then go fuck yourself, basically.
I mean, let's be honest. And you've got a career's
worth of physical, mental trauma and no coping
mechanisms on the back end. And you're three
times more likely to die by suicide than anything
on the job, right? And when you think back to
your training, how many times did you throw a
ladder against the building in training? A couple
thousand, probably? How many times did you do
it for real on a fire? Maybe five or 10 over
the course of your career. Yet we practice and
practice and practice that skill. And there is
zero being spent on mental health right now or
resiliency or, Hey, we know this is going to
happen in your career. You're you're likely to
get married and you're likely to get divorced.
We don't track any of those stats. And when people
do kill themselves, the family or the department
has such shame around it that it's Stephen died
suddenly off duty. Unexpectedly. Unexpectedly,
right, at home. And so I read those things and
I'm immediately like, well, was it a cardiac
or was it a suicide? Or a overdose. That's the
other Stephen. Yep. And so we know that suicides
are increasing, not decreasing. So despite the
fact that we are a little bit more open, that
we are talking about it, that we do have EAP
programs, that this generation that's coming
to the fire service has grown up with therapy,
the suicide rate is still increasing. And to
me, it is immoral to not give people options
that will save their life, even if it means these
medicines. are on some lists with the FDA, which
are on that list with the FDA for entirely immoral
reasons in the first place. So I can't stand
by and watch people suffer when I know this exists.
And that's really what it comes down to. Well,
I've highlighted this with many people, including
Trevor. The FDA approved OxyContin, which the
ripple effects of that kill 100 ,000 Americans
every year. And they approve that. And we're
okay with that. And the guy that approved that
then went and worked for Purdue Pharma. But they
refused to acknowledge the MDMA -led psychotherapy
that was proposed last year. So when we talk
about FDA approval, we have to take that with
a huge bucket of salt in itself. Absolutely.
And there's no money in healing, right? And RFK
talked about that in the context of addiction,
that there's no money. and getting people unaddicted
or off off the prescription drugs alcohol it's
all in fee for service and so until we actually
wanted to get people healthy this option because
for most people it's one or two one or two journeys
and they're at a good place in their life rather
than daily medication prescriptions I think that
we're going to be sort of stuck in this rut of
increasing suicide and not really understanding
why. Well, I think the other thing that's glaring
is every department around here is talking about
mandatory overtime and 56 -hour work weeks, if
not 80, 120. And that's the other part of the
puzzle. We've been talking more about mental
health, but yet we're losing more people. The
cancer, we're deconing, we have climate events,
and we're losing more people to cancer. But what's
the one fucking thing that you're not talking
about that we know is carcinogenic, is directly
related to mental ill health, as I've pointed
out many times? Sleep deprivation is used for
special forces selection, interrogation, and
torture. And we're like... you know a surprise
when when anyone suggests that maybe it's connected
to a you know suicide epidemic so when we actually
look at that and say all right the way we're
doing it isn't working this is we have an amazing
longitudinal study of how not to work a firefighter
so let's do something different so using the
tools that we've discussed today with psychedelics
and you know psychotherapy at the front door
but also a healthy work week Would you want the
pilot of your plane working eight hours a week
and not sleeping four of the days? Of course
not. Why are we any different? And so having
that conversation of Florida is leading the way
because now we've got departments that are going
to it. They just rescheduled, but I got the Gainesville
guys coming on that have stats after a year or
so now of all the improvements and the financial
changes that they've seen. That is the herd of
elephants, as I always say, in the room. that
we have to address as well. If we know there
are direct correlations between sleep deprivation
and physical and mental ill health, why the fuck,
and this really pisses me off, for example, is
IAFF not talking about this when their leadership
is from Boston that works 42 hours a week, 24
-72? You know, this is the problem. All the people
that are in the positions that could truly make
a difference. They've got their fucking heads
in the sand, and then they're shrugging their
shoulders while we're all taking our own lives
and dying of overdoses, et cetera. We have to
hit every single pillar of this if we're going
to make a difference. Yeah, and I'm on our union
e -board, and I've been socializing the idea
of a 24 -72 as we look at our next negotiation,
and it's a tough one to get traction because...
15 years ago, people fought so hard for the 4896
and they think it's the greatest schedule and
they all bought homes that are four hours away.
And now this means that maybe they have to drive
in a little bit more. But really what's going
to drive it is, in my opinion, the cities need
to see that it saves them money. And I want to
believe that the cities in our administration
care about firefighters. But they also have another
job to do, and that's they care about the bottom
line and what it's going to cost. They do care
about you at a price. But we also have seen enough
to know that if I don't come to work tomorrow,
there'll be somebody there in my spot. And that's
OK. And I probably won't hear from anybody about
it. So I would love to see what financial data
can be gleaned by moving towards. the 24 -72
schedule because I think that is the answer that
will probably make the most change for the physical
and mental health of firefighters. How competitive
was it when you wanted to become a firefighter?
I gave a speech after my academy. I was asked
to do that. At the time, it was more challenging
to become a firefighter than to be accepted to
Harvard. Harvard had a 3 % acceptance rate. And
firefighting had about a 1 % acceptance rate
in terms of number of applications they got to
actually getting on the job. That's what I saw
in Anaheim. Basically, we were after probation
because they got rid of about a quarter of the
class through attrition because the bar was set
high and there was no lowering of standards.
It was basically 1 % of the people that did the
written. And this is what I always try and go
back to. You know, I mean, that was 20, just
over 20 years ago, but up until it seems about
10 years ago, it was still very competitive because
the post 9 -11, you know, boom, obviously was,
was, was even more interest, but the rising tide
lifts or shifts. I'll keep, keep hitting this
again. When we just create an environment that
shows these young people who would be phenomenal
firefighters and who are leaning into the trades,
we've seen it because they realize that college
is also a scam unless you have to go, you know,
doctor, lawyer, et cetera. They want to do a
job like this, but they are physically and emotionally
intelligent enough to know. Okay, well, this
is not a healthy working environment. Like you
said, Google, is it healthy to be a firefighter?
It'll tell you exactly what it is. Google, what's
the healthy work week, by the way? It says 2472
now, which is amazing to see. We fix the issues
that are broken. We forge performance with a
healthy work week. The vacancies of, you know,
all the vacant spots are filled. Now you've got
a profession where people will line up around
the building to test for again. And now you're
taking that top one, 10, you know, 15 % wherever
you are. So now you're getting the best of the
best and people that are bending over backwards
to do this job. So it's not, you know, oh, imagine
one day like. You know where you were and you
know where you are now. So your 4896 isn't fucking
working. Your 2448 isn't working. Your Kelly
schedule isn't working. But these ones in the
Northeast, you know, they've been doing it for
a long time. I had one of the chiefs of Washington
on. They don't have a recruitment crisis. They
have lists that are huge. So this is the thing.
It's not the only thing, but you're layering
it. There are all these other schedules. Why
do your family not deserve to have you home after
40 hours when the people making decisions that
cause this crisis in the first place go home
after 40 hours? Yeah, and it's we've had our
challenges that were just sort of coming out
of the last few years. And we solve those staffing
problems by doing a lot of lateral hires. And
so. Well, that's great. And I love the young
people in our department. They bring energy and
compassion, but the younger generation is different.
They don't want to work all the time. They want
to work what the little trifle that they received
when they signed up says you're going to work
48 hours a week and then be home for four days.
They don't want to be there for three on three
off. And their priorities are in a much healthier
place than sort of the older generation. in terms
of chasing the dollar. And the other thing we
see is that we get paid so well these days that
it's easier for me to go work an overtime shift
and hire somebody to go build the little addition
to my house or the shed outside than to go build
it myself. And so what we lost when we have this
generation that doesn't have the side hustle
or the trade is... Working in a trade is a form
of mindfulness when you are building something.
And so on their off days, they don't have that
thing that they do. They'd rather just go work
another day than actually go build the thing
that would actually give them some peace. So
I love that our younger people are bringing that
energy to the profession. I love that they're
pushing for fair. ways to decide who gets mandatory
um but i think it it's going to cause additional
problems when you just don't have people who
are dying for those overtime shifts so it's a
really interesting time yeah well this is this
is again what's i've said this many times on
here i have chiefs telling me well if you give
them more time off they'll just work more which
again is an incredibly narcissistic and arrogant
thing to say about someone on their days off
but If you have a healthy schedule and you fill
all the spots, well, the overtime doesn't go
away, but it becomes minimal again. So now you've
got a very gentle rotation of people volunteering
to do one overtime in a while. And you could
do 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off in that cycle.
So you still don't do a 48, even with an overtime.
But exactly like you said, there's nothing wrong
with working on your days off. Everyone has something
they also love to do. You could be a personal
trainer. You could be landscaper. You could be
installing cabinets, a real estate agent, whatever
it is. That's a separate identity, separate trade,
separate income. God forbid there's some issue
with your fire service job. So there's nothing
wrong with that as long as you're not doing an
overnight job in the ER, second fire department.
I am not opposed to having that in writing. You
cannot work overnight. That's the only stipulation.
So now, you know, yeah, you're getting away,
you're decompressing, you're learning another
skill, you're being an innovator, an entrepreneur.
Those are all fantastic things. And so we get
away from that reliance on overtime in the first
place, because if it's not there to work, then
it just becomes a non -issue then. And, you know,
you go to a grocery store or a bank and they
told you outside of the city, you gave us that
example, but a regular bank, oh, you know, we're
understaffed who needs you to work Saturday and
Sunday as well. How many bank clerks would you
have? Like none. So why is it any different in
our profession? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think
that that is the challenge for administrators
now to figure this one out. And going back to
the financial part, I think that what will drive
it is when they realize that a 24 72 schedule
is financially smarter for everybody. And it's
truly is a win, win, win. It's not firefighters
being lazy that they will come out ahead as well.
Yeah. A hundred percent. They will. And then,
you know, you've got extra money then for gyms
and mental health programs and, you know, all
the other things. I just had one of the doctors
from Pranuvo. They do a full body MRI. Yep. We
do that. You do? Yeah. I was amazed. I have one
done myself and I was like, why are we, you know,
obviously technology has evolved, but this should
be a must have for every department because if
you get that done every, you know, year, two
years, whatever it ends up being. You have a
baseline and you have trending now. So you can
see if something becomes worrying, whether it's
your visceral fat, whether it's a mass somewhere,
a thinning of an artery. What an incredibly powerful
tool. And you could free up funds for that by
creating this healthy work week that's not wasting
all this money downstream. Yeah, there's no doubt
that a test like ProNovo and also testosterone
testing from day one entering the academy is
incredibly important so that you can tie that.
uh inevitable loss of testosterone to the actual
job rather than saying well i guess you're you're
just one of the unlucky few whose testosterone
is now gone um which brings us to the whole other
thing like we are we are great with the medicine
at healing your mental space but there's some
healing to the vessel that also needs to be done
and so when we talk about um you need to go see
a naturopath get your testosterone check get
your cortisol check that's all part of healing
the whole body because we can do everything in
the world with your mind but if your body doesn't
support it because you're constantly low t or
whatever else it's hard to stay it's hard to
keep those gains yeah which again i think one
of the other conversations you know your employer
creates a healthy work weight for you and in
return you put in a fitness standard A punitive
fitness standard. And again, having an on -ramp,
if you just put it in, you're not firing everyone
tomorrow, but whatever it is, a year and a half,
two years to get to where you need to be. We
take you offline if need be, but that is only
going to, it's a win -win as well. You forge
performance on the fire ground, you forge longevity
for the individual. And from your employer's
point of view, you're just going to get fat and
sick less and hurt less. So that's a win -win
-win. And again, that... Don't get me wrong.
At the moment, with the way everyone's worked,
it's hard to put in that standard. But the fact
that historically unions have actually opposed
fitness standards in a profession where we need
to be incredibly strong and incredibly fit, I
mean, honestly, it nauseates me. So that's another
mistake that we've got to undo. Not to lose jobs,
because anyone who actually wants to do the job
will get back to where they need to be, and their
family will thank them for it. But it will also
filter out the people that are there that have
no interest whatsoever of actually being in shape
for the job who shouldn't be on the rig in the
first place. It sounds harsh, but as we said,
this job isn't for everyone. And by lowering
the bar, we've increased the chances of that
kind of thing happening. And the public deserves
it, right? The public deserves having somebody
who is fit enough to do the job. uh, in order
to save them on that one in a one in a thousand
times that it requires a superb level of fitness.
You have to be ready to do that. A hundred percent.
All right. Well, the siren project, then we talked
about the medicine. Talk to me about what you
guys do for the American first responders. Sure.
So, you know, we have, uh, we've sort of built
a program and, and like I mentioned before, everybody
focuses on the actual retreat. which is a small
part of it so what we do is we start with getting
you onboarded and getting you some coaching so
everybody who's going to be part of our program
goes through a screening including what kind
of medicines are you on what can you stay on
what can you not stay on we have fantastic coaches
who go through building some intentions around
why you're doing this journey They won't ever
solve the problem for you, but they will help
guide you in a way where you solve it yourself.
One thing nobody talks about with this medicine
is the medicine does not cure you. You are curing
yourself with the help of the medicine. And so
all of this is within you. So we start a couple
months out. We have a couple one -on -one coaching
sessions. We do a couple of group calls so people
can get to know each other. We send out a pretty
thick workbook so people can start. asking themselves
the questions they should, try to build some
healthy habits like journaling, like going for
walks, like some diet changes that are really
tough to do. And so I applaud the people that
do them, but we make sure they're off nicotine.
We make sure they're off caffeine. We drastically
reduce red meat coming up to the retreat. No
alcohol. So they're off all their alcohol. They're
off all their opioids. It's really an elimination
diet. And it sets them up because what we found
is that through the medicine, if they have several
weeks of really being clean, it's a lot easier
to never go back to those habits, whether that's
chewing or drinking or drinking caffeine in the
morning or limiting your caffeine. I know for
me, I drank a pot of coffee a day every day.
And when I came back from the medicine, I just
had no desire to do it. It wasn't ever an intention
of mine, but my body just no longer wanted that
in me. And the same went for drinking. So my
drinking is drastically less now where I may
have a glass of wine a month with my wife, but
that's about it. So we set them up with a dieta.
Historically, that would include not having sex.
go that far and asking people not to have sex
or anything before because that's just asking
people to fail um and then they go they go down
to the retreat and the retreat's held in puerto
vallarta dr andrea lucy i mentioned facilitates
the whole thing i often go to hold space or other
people like me go and hold space and they're
there for about six days and that includes sweat
lodges the rapay the flower bath um the medicine
itself and then a ton of integration training
how are we going to implement all this stuff
when we get back home and then when they return
home it's it's we do the same thing we have a
couple individual coaching sessions and a couple
group calls and they're placed in the larger
community so we use signal to communicate they're
placed in the alumni group with the other 150
or so alumni that are in that group And it's
almost like an accountability group. And then
their own individual tribe signal group stays
alive so that they can keep in touch with each
other. We do things that we think are important,
including drug testing leading up to it so that
we know that people have done the diet and so
that it's safe for them to have the medicine.
So it's really kind of a well -rounded thing.
After they've done the medicine, we will... let
them know about other things there's some people
who want to do more so if we're going to host
an ayahuasca retreat we let them know about that
there's places we go for huachuma which is san
pedro and so it's it's a a place for people who
who now can all trust each other and are part
of this community to go and talk and so even
within my own department i've sent um almost
20 percent now of the department so for me it
was a question of what happens to the morale
around here if people have experienced the medicine
and so we have our own groups within our department
who we know have experienced the same thing have
had their sort of hearts opened and you can see
the change among them so it's our own little
support group that's incredible Absolutely incredible.
What have you seen as far as a shift then from,
I was having this conversation with a friend
of mine today about his uncle, who's very deeply
religious as far as Christianity and won't do
the Ibogaine in this particular case because
of his faith and it's against what God would
have said. And you take a step back and go, wait
a second, you're addicted to this one synthetic
chemical. and you're opposed to this thing that
grows naturally on the earth god put it here
so what have you seen as far as a shift of the
stigma of this kind of treatment we we have benefited
greatly from the veteran community particularly
organizations like crow cards and vets to reduce
the stigma and that was important for me personally
when i knew that a guy that i had the utmost
respect for jimmy when he told me he had done
it And a SEAL Team 6 guy doing it made it okay
for me. So what we see here at home around the
kitchen table is not so much. I don't advertise
what I do around my department at all. But I
do remove the stigma of talking about stuff that
bothers us. So if people want to talk about that
in public around the kitchen table. But what
we mostly see is somebody pulls me aside on the
app A floor and says, hey, man, this is going
on. And I become a safe place for people to go
and talk to. And that makes a difference because
from there, you know, let's go get you some EAP.
Let's start the process. And that's the scariest
thing for most people is putting their hand up
and saying, I can't fix this myself. I need help.
i've reached i've reached the end where i can
i know i can't fix this anymore and i certainly
experienced that there's no way in hell i was
ever going to raise my hand and say i need help
um until somebody showed me that that was all
right so that's that's one of the big changes
that we've seen beautiful and one last thing
talk to me about the financial side of the siren
project so i'm i'm a firefighter and Going and
asking people for money is awful and we're not
really good at it, but that's what drives a lot
of this process. So we, we have funded a lot
of it by working overtime. So I will work overtime,
put it into the nonprofit so that people can
go get the healing. As we've become known a little
bit, there's more demand and it is morally repulsive
to me to. Have somebody apply, get put on our
wait list and go, yeah, I know you're hurting
really bad. And I know you've told us you've
had thoughts of suicide. We can get you in in
the summer of twenty twenty seven. Like that
is that is too long to wait. So we need we need
funding. And so we were out actively looking
for funding. We haven't announced it publicly
yet, but we will be having a large gala in New
York City on September 10th with an incredible
speaker. who will be this will be kind of our
first major public uh exposure um when we announce
it you will have heard of her and the things
she's done but it will be a fantastic experience
in new york and then we're going to be there
on september 11th for the 21st anniversary so
we haven't announced ticket sales yet but please
check out the sirenproject .org That's where
it will all be announced. That's where we'll
have ticket sales and follow us on all the socials.
Our goal is we would love to reach first responders
and have them sign up. But we also need your
rich uncle to contribute something to help because
that's really what it comes down to. Absolutely.
Yeah, and I think we're going to do another interview
further into the year so that we can make sure
people know when everything is live as well.
So for people listening then, where firstly can
they find The Siren Project? So we're online
at thesirenproject .org. Thesirenproject .org
or The Siren Project is on all the socials. So
we are revamping our website. You'll see a brand
new fresh one out there. So the website is great.
But what really I think gets people to commit
is when somebody they know or trust has gone.
And so as we have built out, as we've had more
people attend, you know, you've hosted a couple
or three here on your show. And talking to people
you trust is really what gives people the comfort
to go. There are a bunch of organizations out
there. I think this is the only one where Angela
and I are both actual firefighters. We're not
therapists. We speak the language. We have lived
in the firehouse. We know what's going on. So
that authenticity, I think, is important when
you're looking at who you trust to provide this.
So we're on the sirenproject .org, the socials.
And I welcome anybody to call me. I'll give you
my phone number. It's 415 -722 -1798. If you
are struggling, if you need help, you can reach
out to me. And I'm at tim at the sirenproject
.org. And email is always a faster way to get
a hold of me. So tim at the sirenproject .org.
Beautiful. Well, I want to throw some quick closing
questions at you before I let you go. The first
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
I referenced one called Operator Syndrome. That's
by Dr. Chris Frew. Frey, I think. Frey, Frey.
Yeah, he is. That really opened my eyes because
I turned the page and saw myself on every one
of them. So that's a fantastic one for starters.
He's also started doing work on firefighter syndrome
and police officer stuff. And so he's in the
space. There's another book called The Medicine
is Sacred by Uncle Henry, who was one of the
mentors for Dr. Lucy. So if you want to really
go read about some of the history of the Lakota.
And the Lakota Medicine, that is a fantastic
place to start. What about film, television,
or documentaries? This is interesting because
we talk about the dieta for people going on these
retreats. And part of your diet is what you consume
in terms of media, social media, movies. And
so I've gone away from being like a John Wick
fan, which I love the series, but I don't watch
that. There's a great documentary called Finding
Joe, which I love. There's the was it the mole,
the horse, the short film. Love that. And we're
out there often recommending like try watching
this your first couple of weeks back. Not this.
So those are a couple of favorites of mine. I
think the movie. soul to watch that before and
after you have experience in medicine is fantastic
because I think that gets to a lot of what we're
trying to teach people. Brilliant. This is totally
recreationally now. I'm removing this from what
we've talked about, but when I lived in Japan,
mushrooms were actually legal. They had Hawaiian
and Mexican. I went and watched Planet of the
Apes with a friend. And that was an amazing experience.
When the lights came up, everyone was an ape,
you know, very, very humorous. Right. But then
I watched it, I think a few weeks later, I watched
a Jet Li movie. Definitely don't recommend that.
You said that intensity on that particular mushroom,
those two did not go together. I just couldn't
catch up. I was like behind each other, punches
and kicks the whole way. And it just, not so
much of a fun experience. So I can see how, yeah,
you know, once you've had that. spiritually enlightening
um experience that yeah you'd want something
that would really touch your soul rather than
you know you killed my dog i'm going to murder
5 000 people exactly all right well the next
question is there a person you'd recommend to
come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the
first responders military and associated professions
of the world uh yeah i got i got three that come
to mind immediately one is dr lucy who we've
mentioned here um She'd be a tough one to get
because she's a little shy and she has no ego,
which is so refreshing. But she is a fantastic
person with a ton of experience with military
and first responders. Next would be Jeff Boss.
Jeff Boss is a retired Navy SEAL. He operated
at the highest levels and he has changed his
life to be from sort of that tier one operator
to now he's going to be a therapist and fantastic
guy. I work with him quite a bit and I absolutely
love him. And he would be fantastic to be on
your show. The third person is a local guy. He
retired a couple of years ago. His name's JD
Madden. JD Madden was a deputy chief for the
city of Santa Clara. And he is very special in
my heart. He is somebody who, when he speaks,
you just, listen and follow and he has that presence
about him and he helped guide that department
through a suicide that they had of somebody that
that i know who was on my task force and who
jd was very close with so jd madden is has some
very special um views on the world and is a fantastic
guy beautiful well i'd love to get any of them
if you're able to help connect that would be
amazing yeah absolutely Brilliant. All right.
Well, then the last question before we make sure
everyone knows where to find you, what do you
do to decompress? So my practices have really
changed. Obviously, there were some unhealthy
practices I had before. Now my go -to is when
I wake up, because I wake up early ahead of my
wife and son, I go and I like to meditate. And
I'll do that for 15 minutes. And that sort of
sets my day up. But I have a progression. So
if I'm, you know, this medicine does not relieve
you of the pressures of the world, right? I'm
still human. All the stuff that gets me mad still
gets me mad. But it's a progression of I meditate.
Then I go for a 30 -minute walk out in the woods.
And then if that's still not working, I'll go
hit the gym for a hard workout. and if that's
still not working then i get the pen out in my
journal so i have sort of a progression that
i need to go down and and like our mental patients
i'm no different when i'm feeling good i stop
doing all the practices that i know i need to
do every day and then two weeks later i'll be
grumpy and cranky and and i don't know why and
i'll go oh i haven't meditated for two weeks
because i've been feeling so good So part of
it is forgiveness of yourself for when you're
not perfect or you don't get up in that morning
and hit the gym really hard that your body needs
rest and you listen to it. There is some level
of understanding of forgiveness of we're all
going to be human and nobody's going to be perfect.
Absolutely. I'm the same with that, even with
my back health routine. that healed my back if
i don't do that for a while it gets a bit tweaky
again it's that's the worst thing is when you
feel good you just drop off and you kind of forget
that that's the reason that you feel good in
the first place and the number one thing for
me on that is when i eat sugar like i will go
on this kick where i'm eating really really dirty
and i'll be like god my back is starting to flare
up again i don't know why i'm like oh you idiot
you've been eating sugar for the last week like
it totally has an impact physically on me. So
that's another one. A hundred percent. All right.
Well, you talked about the Siren Project already.
Where else can people find you as far as social
media and then the dog training that you do?
Sure. I'm Tim Howling on all the social media
and I run another nonprofit that we didn't really
talk about. It's called HD Search Dog Fund. HD
Search Dog Fund is meant to support the working
dogs in the United States. specifically the search
and rescue dogs. What that means is every year
we host the largest search and rescue dog training
in the United States. A couple weeks ago, we
had 105 search and rescue dog teams from across
the United States and Canada come to the Bay
Area, and we had them cycle through three training
sites, Task Force 3, Task Force 4, and Task Force
7 of California. And our three task forces have
worked great together. We're all very close.
We all train together. And the idea of that organization
is that the USAR folks owe it to the wilderness
folks to prepare them for when the call comes,
when we do have the big earthquake and they're
going to be on the pile. And so we want to do
a lot of information sharing so that they can
operate safely. And we want to learn from them,
too, about how they do their jobs. So we're trying
to bridge the gap. So that's HDSearchDogFund
.org. on the socials as HD Search Dog Fund. And
that's really where I get a lot of my decompression
time and my own personal time is the dog stuff.
Beautiful. Well, Tim, I want to say thank you
so much. It's been such an amazing conversation.
Just the search dog conversation alone was fascinating.
But obviously, all the mental health side and
the psychedelic therapy, I think, was just so
important for people to hear. And it just layers.
I've had SEAL Team 6 people and SAS and Australian
firefighters and USAR search handlers. They're
hearing the same message over and over again.
So hopefully, it's really adding weight to the
importance of this. So I want to thank you so
much for being here. So generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you. Thank you for the platform. I appreciate
it and love your show. And you're making a big
difference to everybody. So thank you.