WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

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dog trainer, firefighter paramedic, canine search

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specialist, and co -founder of the Siren Project,

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Tim Howling. Now, in this conversation, we discuss

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a host of topics from his journey into the world

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of search dogs, the personality makeup of a good

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search canine, his journey into the fire service,

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some notable special operations deployments,

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his own powerful mental health story, the healing

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power of psychedelics, the genesis of the Siren

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Project, and so much more. Now, before we get

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to this incredible conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment, go to whichever

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app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of now over 1 ,200

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episodes. So all I ask in return is that you

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help share these incredible men and women's stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet

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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you, Tim... Howling. Enjoy.

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Well, Tim, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to your wife, Angela. for

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making this connection in the first place. And

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secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind

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the Shield podcast today. Thank you. It's great

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to be here. This is about my first time actually

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being out in public to talk about some of these

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things. So I appreciate the platform. Yeah, no,

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whatever needs to be spoken about. I'm in many

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of the areas that we're going to discuss today.

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Very first question, where on planet Earth are

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we finding you today? Right now I'm in Carmel

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Valley, which is in Monterey County, California.

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And it's a beautiful 80 degree day here in February.

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And this is an amazing part of the country. We're

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outside of the fancy Carmel. We can't afford

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to live in Brad Pitt country, but we're about

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25 minutes away up in the valley. And it's a

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fantastic little community with beautiful weather.

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And I can't imagine living anywhere else right

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now. Brad Pitt country. He was born there or

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he lives there now? He moved here a couple of

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years ago into Carmel Highlands. And so you can

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follow the drones for those looking for Brad

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Pitt spotting over on the coast. I was talking

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to someone literally yesterday about fame. I

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can't think of anything worse than your child

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playing football somewhere, soccer, and having

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photographers hiding in the bushes. I think I'd

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be in prison by now. So I think anonymity is

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a superpower. I don't think people realize that.

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Absolutely. I can't imagine doing the thing that

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you love and becoming famous for it and then

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being sort of stuck in the prison of fame afterwards

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and not being able to do all the little things

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that make life nice. Exactly. All right. Well,

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let's start at the very beginning of your timeline

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then. So tell me where you were born and tell

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me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings. So I was

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born and raised in River City, California, which

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is on the peninsula, now kind of Silicon Valley,

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people know it as. I was the baby of four of

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three older sisters. They're nine, eight and

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six years older than me. So in a lot of ways,

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I kind of grew up as an only child. They were

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a little bit older and being girls, they didn't

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really like to go play Star Wars figures in the

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backyard. And my parents remained married. um

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they went through their own sort of tough times

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my dad was a recovering alcoholic who found sobriety

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when i was about four or five and grew up really

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playing a lot of sports and focused on baseball

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a lot so redwood city was a great place to grow

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up it's a little um suburb now of the bigger

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cities we're about a half hour south of san francisco

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And then I went to Sarah High School in San Mateo,

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which is an all boys Catholic school and had

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a great experience there. Played basketball,

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played baseball for four years and best known

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for the schools of Tom Brady and Lynn Swan and

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Barry Bonds. So kind of a big sports high school,

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as it turns out, but terrific education. And

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from there, I went on to Santa Clara University,

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which is in the heart of Silicon Valley here.

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It's a Jesuit college and ended up doing accounting

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because it was really the only subject I was

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good at. For some reason, if it's the first class

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in all my classes, you know, leading up to that,

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I got an A. And so I thought accounting was the

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way to go. You know, my dad was a businessman.

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He sold insurance for construction companies.

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My mom was a nurse, a labor delivery nurse, but

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I was always sort of steered in the direction

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of go be. you know, a business guy. You know,

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we don't have to get our hands dirty anymore.

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Let's go live in the white collar world. It's

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a lot easier on your body and go use your brain

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to do something. So accounting just kind of made

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sense. And when I graduated from Santa Clara

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in 1994, those were the places where there were

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jobs. So there was a little bit of recession

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going on and I could actually get hired. So I

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actually came out of college and I was a CPA

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for about six years. And so that was a whole

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nother world. It's I can't imagine doing that

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now and going into an office. But it was it was

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a great start. And it's things I still use today

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in terms of how to understand finances, accounting,

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things like that. Going back to your father's

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struggles, knowing now, especially in what we're

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going to discuss later, how much childhood trauma

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factors into a lot of people struggled in uniform.

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Have you had any conversations as far as his

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upbringing and what contributed to his own struggles?

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So the problem is a lot of the questions I want

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to ask were never asked because he passed away

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when he was 63. So I was about 29 years old at

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the time, much earlier than before I sort of

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had my own awakening about why I was the way

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I was. So I wish I could ask him and I wish I

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could ask my mom who have both passed away. But

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I did talk to my sisters and, you know, there's

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a big difference between being four years old

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when this stuff is going on and being 13 years

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old in terms of your understanding. You know,

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my earliest memories were drawing pictures of

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football helmets at a place that wasn't my home

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because my mom had kicked my dad out for a period

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of time. And realizing that this was just kind

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of weird. They did work it out and she did take

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him back. And I think that led to his sobriety.

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And, you know, one of the things that really

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touched me was at his funeral. We had a lot of

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people come out and say, hey, your dad saved

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my life. Your dad was my sponsor and he stopped

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me from drinking and was always there. And this

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was stuff that we hadn't. we had never heard

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about we had no idea that he was out doing this

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stuff and helping people he just kind of kept

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it to himself and kept that um that confidentiality

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that is important there but um we had no idea

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that he was out helping other alcoholics into

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recovery and that was really touching so um knowing

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what i know now that clearly was an impact on

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my life as drinking and and where i ended up

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and i think There's general agreement that first

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responders, military, especially the special

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ops guys, probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't

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for some level of childhood trauma. And I think

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that's where a lot of us start to put the armor

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on is in our childhood. And it's a lifetime of

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learning how to take that off. That is such a

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beautiful story to hear, though, that your dad

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not only was able to overcome his own addiction,

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but then use his story to be a beacon of light.

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And you obviously hear this a lot in AA with

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the sponsors. But it really does illustrate this

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concept that I'm sure we're going to unpack as

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well. But I literally wrote about in my most

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recent book is that generational trauma. There

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are these dominoes that we... If we go back these

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generations, you start to see them very clearly.

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Well, this is my parents upbringing. This is

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my grandparents upbringing. This is my great

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grandparents upbringing. And now we're in World

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War II, World War I, this cycle. But if you can

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see it and if you can do the work and you can

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heal from it, they say hurt people, hurt people.

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And we see that all over the world. But heal

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people, heal people. And I think what a beautiful

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testament to your dad that the work he did, he

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stopped that domino somewhat from falling. if

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not onto to you and your sisters certainly the

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generation after yeah and it was really um it's

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one of those things you don't recognize really

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at the time and um you know his background was

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he had an older brother who died when he was

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17 years old so the brother was still in high

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school my dad was about 13 i think at the time

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and uh never spoke about it you know that was

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something that we just didn't we didn't talk

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about that was in the 1950s and so There's no

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doubt that some forgiveness comes when you recognize

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your parents are also human and are doing this

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for the first time, living their first life and

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don't have all the answers. And being a father

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now, I certainly recognize like, oh, my God,

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this is this is tough to do. Even if you have

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the most perfect, pristine background and no

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trauma, it is a challenge to do. So I appreciate

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him. And in fact. I have a picture over here.

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The last picture we have of him is him holding

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this sign. I don't know if you can see it. It

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says, I am so proud of you. So that's the sign

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that he had. I had a really tough year back in

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2004, and I had thrown myself into running. And

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so I decided I needed a goal. So I decided I

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was going to run the New York City Marathon.

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And my folks came out. Super proud of me. And

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they took that picture of him in the hotel room

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before they went down to like cheer me on in

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Central Park. And he got on a plane that night

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and flew home and went straight to the hospital,

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never came out. So that's the last picture we

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have of him alive is passing the message that

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he's proud of me. So that's certainly for me,

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like, oh, talk about a role model. Now, you know,

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I understand everybody. I had trouble with alcohol

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myself. And so I understand that we're human.

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But the fact that he. He changed to go help people,

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I think, was a huge impact, huge modeling of

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behavior for my life. Absolutely. Well, going

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back to your first profession, then talk to me

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as you reflect back now, the pros of accounting

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and then what was some of the cons, if any? There

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is a there is a baseline knowledge that you under

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that you get to understand about how businesses

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work. That's something that it's really hard

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to see from the outside. So accounting is organized.

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It's very professional. I was doing audits on

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companies. And for me, it was a great lesson

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in responsibility. I was put in charge of a team

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of about 25 people when I was 25, 26 years old,

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which is a pretty big team to lead. you have

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to do it you have to step up to the task at a

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young age so i appreciate that i learned a ton

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um but i also learned that the the world of accounting

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is largely backward looking we're looking at

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history of things that what of what happened

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and i wanted to move to something that was more

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forward -looking more strategic and more um kind

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of aggressive and exciting so i in 2000 i got

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I made a big move from looking at accounting

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to working on Wall Street. So I went to an investment

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banking firm and I started working on mergers

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and acquisitions. And that was in 2000. Now,

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around that time, I was dating a woman in New

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York. I always thought it'd be really cool to

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live in the city. So I made the move from the

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West Coast to the East Coast in 2000. And one

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of the best moves I ever made in my life. I absolutely

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love New York. And so the relationship I moved

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for lasts about six months once I got to the

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city, as they often do. And I stayed in New York

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working in investment banking until early 2005.

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And then I moved home. I sort of had a couple

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of life moments in that sort of time period that

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I think really directed me to go on a different

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path. And I started this period that... last

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over 20 years while it's still going on of sort

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of searching. And so that was a super critical

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time for me as I got a little bit older and a

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little bit more mature of trying to figure out

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what life was supposed to be all about. Going

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back to the taxes for a moment, for people listening,

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I don't know if this was even your world at all,

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but what are some of the common mistakes or common

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myths that the average person understands or

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misunderstands as far as their own taxes? So

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there's a lot of subjectivity in taxes. And it's

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a risk assessment. So how aggressive you are

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in your taxes, you could be totally fine. You

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may not ever get audited. And nobody is sort

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of the wiser. There's people who are very by

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the book on how they interpret the tax code.

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And those people pay more taxes. So there is

00:14:45.230 --> 00:14:52.210
strategy in a... In minimizing taxes, there's

00:14:52.210 --> 00:14:55.669
jail for avoiding taxes. And there's a really

00:14:55.669 --> 00:14:58.230
fine line between the two. And so your accountant,

00:14:58.409 --> 00:15:02.950
if you use an accountant to do your taxes, understand

00:15:02.950 --> 00:15:06.649
that you have to get to know them a little bit

00:15:06.649 --> 00:15:09.629
like a therapist in terms of their attitudes

00:15:09.629 --> 00:15:12.070
towards risk and what kind of risks they're going

00:15:12.070 --> 00:15:15.950
to put you in. Some people don't ever want to

00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:17.970
be close to breaking a rule. Some people don't

00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:19.710
ever want to be subject to interpretation. And

00:15:19.710 --> 00:15:22.470
others are like, let's go, man. Let's get as

00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:24.950
much money back as we can. And so for personal

00:15:24.950 --> 00:15:27.590
taxes, that's a very important thing. And there's

00:15:27.590 --> 00:15:29.289
a lot you could do to plan ahead to minimize

00:15:29.289 --> 00:15:33.970
your taxes. And whether that's your deferred

00:15:33.970 --> 00:15:37.509
comp, whether it's have some side businesses.

00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.840
um all that stuff is is things that people who

00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:43.740
are young and starting out especially firefighters

00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:47.139
ought to know a little bit more about absolutely

00:15:47.139 --> 00:15:49.000
i didn't realize we had a really good lady in

00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.980
um california and all the things that we were

00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:54.620
legally allowed to to write off you know all

00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:56.580
obviously the educational material and some of

00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:58.179
the firefighting gear that we bought that year

00:15:58.179 --> 00:16:00.559
and yeah you can be naive and i think i still

00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.679
am to a point and probably pay a lot more than

00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.399
you should but i think the fear of obviously

00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.100
being audited and getting into trouble i think

00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:10.720
probably leans a lot of people to overpaying

00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.820
on taxes i would assume yes yeah and they you

00:16:13.820 --> 00:16:15.360
know they're very rarely are they going to come

00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:17.899
back and say oops you paid us too much here's

00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:21.659
your money back right so well with that what

00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.700
about you know when when we talk about the abuse

00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:28.120
of um you know governmental support government

00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.279
government support excuse me A lot of times it's

00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:33.779
aimed at people on welfare, food stamps, government

00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:37.000
housing, et cetera. But the lesser discussed

00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:42.059
side is the pilfering when it comes to businesses

00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:44.840
and the underpaying of taxes there. Were you

00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:49.500
exposed to any of that at all? Sure. And there's

00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:53.899
a fundamental problem is that if you are a CPA

00:16:53.899 --> 00:16:58.399
or a tax attorney and if you go to work for the

00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.919
government, That's a very noble thing, but you're

00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:02.639
going to make about half as much as you do in

00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.740
the private sector. So just like investment banking,

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.779
where we see similar things of fraud and schemes,

00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.460
those are incredibly smart people. And while

00:17:13.460 --> 00:17:17.180
we often paint them with a brush of their fraudulent,

00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.500
their immoral, what we really have are people

00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:23.880
who are more comfortable working on the fringes

00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:28.200
of what is allowed and what's not. And so the

00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.299
almighty dollar plays a huge role in this. If

00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:33.819
you want, you see the best and brightest minds

00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:36.700
oftentimes where the most money is. And that's

00:17:36.700 --> 00:17:40.339
just the rules of the game today. Very rarely

00:17:40.339 --> 00:17:42.099
do you see the best and brightest going into

00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:46.180
enforce those laws. And so we have people who,

00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:50.200
when I was working in investment banking, there

00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:52.119
were analysts that would just cover three companies

00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:56.720
and that's it. And so. There's this idea that

00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:59.920
the average civilian can go make money in the

00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.019
stock market. And for me, that's pretty absurd.

00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.420
You're playing against some people who pay millions

00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:10.619
of dollars just to have their hub of technology

00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.180
closest to the stock exchange in order to make

00:18:13.180 --> 00:18:16.279
that 0 .1 second difference in hitting that trade.

00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:19.859
You don't stand a chance. What you can do is,

00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:23.190
you know, a rising tide lifts all ships. But

00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:25.730
the idea that you're going to outpick one of

00:18:25.730 --> 00:18:29.109
the professional pickers is impossible. And it

00:18:29.109 --> 00:18:31.309
goes to the level of there were guys I know who

00:18:31.309 --> 00:18:35.309
made friends, made big gifts to people in manufacturing

00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:38.470
facilities in China to get information about

00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:40.869
how many screens were being made for this or

00:18:40.869 --> 00:18:43.890
for that so that they can know ahead of time

00:18:43.890 --> 00:18:46.990
of how well that company is doing. Some of that

00:18:46.990 --> 00:18:50.970
is totally fine. Like if you want to go do that

00:18:50.970 --> 00:18:53.829
level of research, that's totally legal. Some

00:18:53.829 --> 00:18:57.130
of it rises to insider trading when you get that

00:18:57.130 --> 00:18:59.609
information from the company. So some of these

00:18:59.609 --> 00:19:01.849
guys were just super aggressive researchers and

00:19:01.849 --> 00:19:04.109
hats off to them. They made a ton of money doing

00:19:04.109 --> 00:19:08.829
it. But the idea that you or me can stand a chance

00:19:08.829 --> 00:19:12.509
against those guys is absolutely crazy at this

00:19:12.509 --> 00:19:16.089
point in the stock exchange. So you hope that

00:19:16.089 --> 00:19:19.849
the economy goes up overall. folks like you and

00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:24.430
me can prosper and make money. I promise you

00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:26.049
this though, when they're talking about it around

00:19:26.049 --> 00:19:29.490
the table at the firehouse, it's almost always

00:19:29.490 --> 00:19:33.630
too late. The firefighters love a good outside

00:19:33.630 --> 00:19:36.430
financial thing and it's almost always a bad

00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:40.369
idea. I never got into that because I saw the

00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:44.349
guys glued to their screen. And I'm like, this

00:19:44.349 --> 00:19:48.150
is not fun. I will just go earn extra money somewhere

00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:51.029
else. Same with the investment properties. I

00:19:51.029 --> 00:19:53.509
had friends that had rentals and they were just

00:19:53.509 --> 00:19:55.869
constantly pulling their hair out and tenants

00:19:55.869 --> 00:19:57.930
were leaving it all destroyed and not paying.

00:19:58.170 --> 00:20:01.410
And again, I'm happy with the small amount of

00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:03.029
money that I make. I don't need to make more

00:20:03.029 --> 00:20:06.430
because I think that there's money and then there's

00:20:06.430 --> 00:20:08.450
value. And those things, I think, are very different.

00:20:09.009 --> 00:20:11.599
Absolutely. yeah and you know we've it's run

00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.240
the gamut at the firehouse and or before 2008

00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:16.259
was investment properties in the central valley

00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:17.740
we're going to go through the roof and then it

00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:19.779
was you know bitcoin and then there were these

00:20:19.779 --> 00:20:23.059
bridge loans and then you know people are buying

00:20:23.059 --> 00:20:25.400
silver and there's there's all kinds there's

00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:27.559
always the latest scam around the firehouse and

00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.700
generally my feeling is if you're talking it

00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:31.519
at the firehouse you're too late to the party

00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.180
and the value has already occurred so i stay

00:20:34.180 --> 00:20:36.269
away from all those stuff Yeah, that's good to

00:20:36.269 --> 00:20:38.650
hear. Yeah, I think there was one famous like

00:20:38.650 --> 00:20:42.029
how to get rich quick book on QVC years ago.

00:20:42.089 --> 00:20:44.890
And then they discovered that that guy got rich

00:20:44.890 --> 00:20:50.470
by selling books on how to get rich. I think

00:20:50.470 --> 00:20:52.470
the most interesting thing out there right now

00:20:52.470 --> 00:20:55.869
is those funds that follow the politicians trading.

00:20:56.589 --> 00:20:58.710
I think that is probably the best place to get

00:20:58.710 --> 00:21:01.849
wealthy because I see what the politicians are

00:21:01.849 --> 00:21:03.650
making on the stock market and it beats all the

00:21:03.650 --> 00:21:07.490
hedge funds. I love that idea of putting NASCAR

00:21:07.490 --> 00:21:10.750
style stickers on politicians so you know who's

00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:14.930
bought them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, speaking

00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:17.210
of Wall Street, I've had a few guests that have

00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:21.509
been on there. Firstly, what was the goal? What

00:21:21.509 --> 00:21:23.730
was your kind of motivation to moving to that

00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:27.109
world? And then... you know if i'm assuming there

00:21:27.109 --> 00:21:29.109
was an element of obviously the financial side

00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:32.369
did you find it satisfying when you were actually

00:21:32.369 --> 00:21:36.309
on wall street making good money so you know

00:21:36.309 --> 00:21:39.710
the the sticker price is what you see first off

00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:43.069
so you see young folks you know in their in their

00:21:43.069 --> 00:21:45.289
mid to late 20s you know pulling down at that

00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:47.710
time you know a million bucks a million half

00:21:47.710 --> 00:21:51.430
bucks at that age is not uncommon and that that

00:21:51.430 --> 00:21:54.009
attracts you and for people who are competitive

00:21:54.009 --> 00:21:57.440
like i am That's something you want to, that's

00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:01.059
a race you want to get into. It wasn't too long

00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:05.980
after that, maybe a couple of years in that my

00:22:05.980 --> 00:22:11.180
interest really changed and I was helping small

00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:13.859
businesses sort of plan for the next generation.

00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:17.099
So for instance, I got to help this one company

00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:20.759
named Spider. They do ski gear. And the owner

00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.759
at the time had started it 30 years ago for his

00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.539
son, who was a ski racer, and it was a little

00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:30.799
catalog business. And it was time for him to

00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.460
move on. He was like 77 at the time. He wanted

00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:35.700
to secure his future. He wanted to know where

00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:37.779
that business was going to go. And so helping

00:22:37.779 --> 00:22:40.019
somebody like that, who it was their life work,

00:22:40.220 --> 00:22:43.160
make the most amount of money for their company

00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.920
was fantastic. And I love that. But as you move

00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:50.339
up in promotions, in the investment banking world

00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:54.539
i i was exposed to less and less of those opportunities

00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:57.119
and you start to manage the managers so i had

00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:59.059
several people working for me and my contact

00:22:59.059 --> 00:23:02.299
with those with those business owners was less

00:23:02.299 --> 00:23:05.079
and less and so that was disappointing for me

00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:09.200
and um it became way less fun and way less meaningful

00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.960
and so you know i talked about the challenging

00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:18.119
year in 2004 i had been engaged to a woman who

00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:21.359
I came home after being at work for like 36 hours

00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.619
to hit a deadline. And she basically gave me

00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:27.400
the ring back and said, hey, this is not right.

00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.640
I'm not ready. You're not the right one. I'm

00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.940
just going to leave. And never really got an

00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:35.519
explanation of it. And so that's when I was like,

00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:40.539
man, I see these senior people in my firm who

00:23:40.539 --> 00:23:43.099
are, I don't want to be the fat 50 -year -old

00:23:43.099 --> 00:23:45.380
who dies at his desk from a heart attack. And

00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:48.640
that was certainly a path. That was going that

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.119
I was going down. You know, I had lived I lived

00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.680
in Manhattan during 9 -11 I knew some people

00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.259
who died in the towers and I think that really

00:23:59.259 --> 00:24:02.019
started this like what am I doing here? What

00:24:02.019 --> 00:24:06.960
am I doing with my life? And I you know failed

00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:11.839
relationships getting fat Going out and partying

00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.859
super hard for like the one night a week that

00:24:14.859 --> 00:24:18.509
I could go out and not really having any meaningful

00:24:18.509 --> 00:24:22.710
relationships. So I was definitely seeking at

00:24:22.710 --> 00:24:26.089
that point in my life. And my dad's passing away

00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:29.329
really sort of drove me to actually do something

00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:32.250
about it and make a change. So what did that

00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:36.690
initial change look like? So in investment banking

00:24:36.690 --> 00:24:38.990
at that time, and I don't know what it's like

00:24:38.990 --> 00:24:42.190
now, but it was expected that you would be around

00:24:42.190 --> 00:24:44.670
the office for like six, six and a half days

00:24:44.670 --> 00:24:49.890
a week. you know i would get usually sunday afternoons

00:24:49.890 --> 00:24:52.970
off and the rest of the time i'd be around the

00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:56.529
office and it was you know you eat you eat breakfast

00:24:56.529 --> 00:24:59.390
lunch and dinner at your desk and you're busy

00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:04.730
doing stuff um so i'm sorry what was your question

00:25:04.730 --> 00:25:06.269
one more time that's okay you mentioned that

00:25:06.269 --> 00:25:08.049
that there was a change after losing your father

00:25:08.049 --> 00:25:14.230
so what did that yeah yeah so um one of the things

00:25:14.230 --> 00:25:16.599
that i always thought about You know, I had a

00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:21.119
dog when I was 12. And you think back about as

00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:23.359
a parent, like all the little things you do.

00:25:23.420 --> 00:25:26.039
But for me, my parents getting me my own dog

00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:28.980
when I was 12 was really life changing. So I'm

00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:31.619
sitting there in the office, you know, unhappy,

00:25:31.779 --> 00:25:34.940
wondering what I would do. What would I do if

00:25:34.940 --> 00:25:36.599
I didn't have to be here? And the one thing that

00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.539
kept coming back to me is I want a dog. And so

00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:42.220
if I wasn't here, I wanted a dog. I wanted to

00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:46.269
go up and ski. when my dad passed away you know

00:25:46.269 --> 00:25:49.390
my mom was alone in the house and i said screw

00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:51.230
it this is this is the time it's kind of now

00:25:51.230 --> 00:25:55.190
or never and so i moved back home um and i got

00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:59.289
a dog and that dog's name was deuce and um i

00:25:59.289 --> 00:26:01.609
spent part i spent most of the winters kind of

00:26:01.609 --> 00:26:05.390
up in tahoe uh now at palisades it was squaw

00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:08.009
valley at the time and i skied and i raised a

00:26:08.009 --> 00:26:13.589
puppy and having lived through 9 11 having um

00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.559
I was actually at Candlestick Park for the Loma

00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:20.680
Prieta earthquake back in 1989. I had seen what

00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:22.380
search dogs had done. I didn't know anything

00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:23.799
about them, but I had seen, and I was always

00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:25.279
kind of intrigued, like, hey, that's pretty cool.

00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.220
So I decided I'd figure out how to go to one

00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.940
of those trainings. And I went to one of those

00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:34.680
trainings, and that's the first time I ever saw

00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.599
something I'm, like, hooked, man. Like, hook,

00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:39.640
line, and sinker, like, I need to be doing that.

00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.019
And it was... Kind of no looking back from there.

00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:46.039
So it started with the simple idea that all I

00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:49.079
want is to not be in this office. I don't really

00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.599
know what I do want, but I want a dog. And me

00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.599
and that dog, we had tons of adventures. And

00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:59.319
so that was Deuce. That led me into search and

00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.740
rescue. And that really was like the start of

00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:06.980
how can I do this professionally? Is there another

00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:10.420
world outside of being in the office? So after

00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:12.000
a couple of years, I did go back to investment

00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.079
banking for a little bit because I wanted a little

00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:19.700
bit of a nest egg. But I was really full time

00:27:19.700 --> 00:27:22.559
in the search and rescue world. And so that was

00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:27.500
wilderness stuff. And so in 2000, that was like

00:27:27.500 --> 00:27:33.200
right around 2005, I started that. My mentor

00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.299
in that space was a woman named Elise who became

00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:42.710
my wife in 2009. And it changed my life because

00:27:42.710 --> 00:27:45.569
there was this idea of like, let's go do this

00:27:45.569 --> 00:27:47.289
professionally. What else is out there? So I

00:27:47.289 --> 00:27:50.529
went and got my EMT and I'm like, hey, I kind

00:27:50.529 --> 00:27:53.750
of like medicine. And then I said, well, I'm

00:27:53.750 --> 00:27:55.049
not doing anything right now. I'm not really

00:27:55.049 --> 00:27:56.890
working. I'll go get my paramedic license. And

00:27:56.890 --> 00:28:01.750
so I got my paramedic license. I was lucky enough

00:28:01.750 --> 00:28:04.529
to know some people on the FEMA task force locally,

00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:08.609
and they invited me to do my internship. at their

00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:11.349
fire department and then a couple years later

00:28:11.349 --> 00:28:15.710
i get hired where i am right now so um that dog

00:28:15.710 --> 00:28:17.589
really kind of led me on a whole nother path

00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:20.230
i was lucky enough to be on the fema task force

00:28:20.230 --> 00:28:24.309
before i was ever a firefighter so um it was

00:28:24.309 --> 00:28:27.710
really the idea of not of knowing i just don't

00:28:27.710 --> 00:28:30.269
want this anymore that led me to do something

00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:34.470
different so talk to me about the kind of scope

00:28:34.470 --> 00:28:38.500
of practice of the search and rescue canine side

00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:40.660
because i mean i know you know in law enforcement

00:28:40.660 --> 00:28:43.039
obviously you get everything from you know the

00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:45.299
swat dogs all the way through to the beagles

00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:46.839
that are sniffing your suitcase in the airport

00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.900
talk to me about that spectrum in in our world

00:28:49.900 --> 00:28:54.819
okay so in california the the search dog world

00:28:54.819 --> 00:28:57.359
is divided into the law side and the fire side

00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:01.059
so on the law side you have um essentially the

00:29:01.059 --> 00:29:03.400
folks who go looking for individual missing people

00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:06.579
So that's the lost hiker, the dementia patient,

00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:09.579
you name it, the little kid who's lost in the

00:29:09.579 --> 00:29:12.099
woods, the abduction cases, anything that may

00:29:12.099 --> 00:29:15.019
have a criminal nexus. And it's generally volunteer

00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:19.880
driven. And you never hear about, very rarely

00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.880
do you hear about those searches. And they encompass

00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.859
everything from area search dogs, which will

00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:30.809
find anybody in 100 acres. to cadaver dogs who

00:29:30.809 --> 00:29:35.109
will find buried small sources um you know for

00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:37.930
a murder scene or something like that they have

00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:39.650
the trailing dogs which everybody thinks of the

00:29:39.650 --> 00:29:41.829
bloodhound but there's not very many bloodhounds

00:29:41.829 --> 00:29:44.049
around anymore they're mostly shepherds and malinois

00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:47.029
and labradors and that's sort of the different

00:29:47.029 --> 00:29:49.970
ones they have on the law side on the fire side

00:29:49.970 --> 00:29:53.769
where and i live in both worlds so i my dog is

00:29:53.769 --> 00:29:59.349
certified on on in both so um the fire side is

00:29:59.349 --> 00:30:03.650
tightly connected to the FEMA urban search and

00:30:03.650 --> 00:30:05.829
rescue teams and the state urban search and rescue

00:30:05.829 --> 00:30:08.930
teams. So when you think of the fireside dogs,

00:30:09.210 --> 00:30:11.329
those are the ones that come look for you after

00:30:11.329 --> 00:30:14.230
the building collapses on you. So we're looking

00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:17.950
for sort of an individual who went and got themselves

00:30:17.950 --> 00:30:20.430
lost. We're looking for people who were victims

00:30:20.430 --> 00:30:22.650
of a collapsed structure from an earthquake,

00:30:22.950 --> 00:30:27.160
a hurricane, a mudslide, a fire. And in that

00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:30.880
fire world we have, it's a clear separation between

00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.500
the lifine dogs who only search for missing living

00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:37.380
human beings and the cadaver dogs. And they only

00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:40.880
search for missing deceased human beings. And

00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.299
so most of the work these days is in that human

00:30:44.299 --> 00:30:47.440
remains detection. And that's everything from

00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:50.519
the Paradise Fire where, you know, we lost 85

00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:54.269
people to the Montecito mudslides to... This

00:30:54.269 --> 00:30:56.930
summer, we were down in Texas for the flooding

00:30:56.930 --> 00:31:00.789
that happened on the Guadalupe River. So that's

00:31:00.789 --> 00:31:03.569
how the worlds kind of break out. And we have

00:31:03.569 --> 00:31:06.250
lots of people who kind of do both. But most

00:31:06.250 --> 00:31:09.069
people kind of choose which one they want to

00:31:09.069 --> 00:31:11.829
do, whether it's wilderness or the fireside.

00:31:12.809 --> 00:31:15.170
What does the training look like? I've had two

00:31:15.170 --> 00:31:18.250
German shepherds now. that can't find their own

00:31:18.250 --> 00:31:20.829
yellow tennis ball for love nor money if i throw

00:31:20.829 --> 00:31:22.609
it in a direction that they weren't looking at

00:31:22.609 --> 00:31:26.250
how do you take a canine and get such acute um

00:31:26.250 --> 00:31:31.049
senses from them when dogs exist like mine too

00:31:31.049 --> 00:31:33.390
that clearly don't have the potential to be that

00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:36.289
kind of dog yeah well you can probably hear a

00:31:36.289 --> 00:31:38.789
couple dogs behind me now and these are my current

00:31:38.789 --> 00:31:43.309
search dogs that are playing but they um it starts

00:31:43.309 --> 00:31:46.269
with genetics and so what what we have are dogs

00:31:46.269 --> 00:31:49.230
that make terrible pets like these are i love

00:31:49.230 --> 00:31:51.410
my guys but they're not that fun to live with

00:31:51.410 --> 00:31:53.690
around the house like they if you don't give

00:31:53.690 --> 00:31:55.490
them something to do or create them they will

00:31:55.490 --> 00:31:58.049
find something to do it's never anything you

00:31:58.049 --> 00:31:59.869
want them to be doing they're never folding the

00:31:59.869 --> 00:32:05.009
laundry right so um it starts with genetics The

00:32:05.009 --> 00:32:08.069
dogs typically are on the firesides, Labrador,

00:32:08.269 --> 00:32:10.849
Shepherds, Malinois, Border Collies, the sort

00:32:10.849 --> 00:32:15.269
of midsize working breeds. And it's really an

00:32:15.269 --> 00:32:18.289
art in choosing the dogs. We're going through

00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:21.269
a change now in the search and rescue dog world

00:32:21.269 --> 00:32:24.410
on the fireside where there's a lot of pre -trained

00:32:24.410 --> 00:32:26.710
dogs. It's getting closer to the police model

00:32:26.710 --> 00:32:29.430
where somebody else trains the dog. You come

00:32:29.430 --> 00:32:31.369
in, you get a two or three week handler course

00:32:31.369 --> 00:32:33.500
and then boom. you're on the street with your

00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:39.059
with your dog. I did I have a master's in history,

00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:42.619
my my thesis was on the origin and evolution

00:32:42.619 --> 00:32:45.799
of search dogs in California. So at one point

00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:48.140
in time, they were all search dogs. And now we've

00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:50.019
really gone into this world of specialization.

00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:55.859
So how we train them. has changed. It used to

00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:58.779
be more of like a keeler method, correction -based.

00:32:59.059 --> 00:33:01.279
Now we're really into more play -based models

00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:05.079
where the dogs have fun. We pick dogs with incredible

00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:10.160
drive for their toy. And really the difference

00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.940
that we see in selection between the law enforcement

00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:16.559
wilderness dogs and the USAR dogs is their ability

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.630
to be comfortable on the rubble pile. So the

00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:21.930
Rubble Pile is an unforgiving, uncomfortable

00:33:21.930 --> 00:33:26.049
place, unnatural for dogs to be on. And so to

00:33:26.049 --> 00:33:29.509
take it from that flat wilderness sort of thing

00:33:29.509 --> 00:33:34.589
into a vertical structure that's wobbly and uncomfortable,

00:33:34.789 --> 00:33:36.630
that's where we see the differences between the

00:33:36.630 --> 00:33:39.690
two dogs. So there's wonderful organizations

00:33:39.690 --> 00:33:42.150
out there like the Disaster Search Dog Foundation

00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:45.410
here in California that take dogs from shelters.

00:33:46.469 --> 00:33:49.109
And dogs that have all those traits, they usually

00:33:49.109 --> 00:33:51.829
are like escape artists. They've usually torn

00:33:51.829 --> 00:33:53.950
up the house. They have all this, people call

00:33:53.950 --> 00:33:56.490
it energy, but it's really kind of drive to go

00:33:56.490 --> 00:33:59.549
do something. And they turn them into useful

00:33:59.549 --> 00:34:01.569
members of society by making them search and

00:34:01.569 --> 00:34:03.650
rescue dogs and they get to go live in the firehouse.

00:34:03.809 --> 00:34:08.150
So it's fantastic programs like that. I've sourced

00:34:08.150 --> 00:34:10.269
my dogs from people like Michael Ellis, who I

00:34:10.269 --> 00:34:13.150
think is the best trainer in the world, who breeds

00:34:13.150 --> 00:34:16.800
Malinois. And then I've also found them from

00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.039
people who just being in the dog world say my

00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.199
dog is too much and has killed a couple of cats

00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.739
here in the Castro and that's not good. And so

00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:27.480
do you want this dog? And I said, yeah, I'll

00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.360
take that dog. That's something I could work

00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.820
with. And so we kind of find them all over the

00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:35.599
place. Sounds like firefighters too, like a high

00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.090
energy. breaking things a lot like i probably

00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:41.710
become a firefighter yeah it's not it's not too

00:34:41.710 --> 00:34:44.530
different they rest a little bit less than the

00:34:44.530 --> 00:34:46.409
firefighters but yeah it's not too different

00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:49.480
Well, talk to me then about some of the notable

00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.639
deployments. I had Beth Bowersox on a few years

00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.000
ago now. She was a dispatcher, one of the dispatchers

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.579
at the Paradise Fire, for example. So had some

00:34:57.579 --> 00:35:00.619
powerful kind of stories from Katrina and some

00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:03.179
of these other huge events. What are some of

00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:05.239
the stories that you witnessed firsthand? Not

00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:07.719
only the dog, but obviously yourself, the handler

00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:11.679
as well. So one of the big ones we went to was

00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:15.360
a Montecito debris flow. And that was one where

00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.650
I believe there's 23 people killed. And they

00:35:18.650 --> 00:35:21.150
had trouble finding like the last five or six.

00:35:22.449 --> 00:35:24.949
The debris path was over a mile long. It went

00:35:24.949 --> 00:35:26.510
from the top of the mountain all the way down

00:35:26.510 --> 00:35:29.690
to the ocean. And it was mud everywhere. So it's

00:35:29.690 --> 00:35:33.230
one of those things that we always, you're always

00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:36.010
fighting the last war in your training. Meaning

00:35:36.010 --> 00:35:38.590
we in California, we're all expecting the big

00:35:38.590 --> 00:35:41.469
earthquake, right? The concrete tilt up. Now

00:35:41.469 --> 00:35:45.510
when you put us in an environment of just mud.

00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:50.820
You can't create that training environment. And

00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:55.780
so that was notable because my dog, George, and

00:35:55.780 --> 00:36:01.820
I had embarked on a different way to train. And

00:36:01.820 --> 00:36:05.199
there was some really good validation that our

00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:08.920
training methods worked. I've always been blessed

00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:11.360
with having a mentor appear at the right time

00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.699
in my life. And so I had taken sort of a right

00:36:14.699 --> 00:36:17.380
-hand turn away from sort of traditional training

00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:21.739
methods to work with this mentor of mine. And

00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:25.599
on that search, you never really know if you're

00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:27.559
doing the right thing. It's sort of like parenting

00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:31.539
until you get into the real world. And unfortunately,

00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:33.619
the truth with search and rescue dogs is a lot

00:36:33.619 --> 00:36:36.559
of times the Lifine dogs get maybe one deployment

00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:40.300
in their lifetime. I've retired two dogs with

00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:43.179
zero deployments. So to get out and do it in

00:36:43.179 --> 00:36:46.500
the real world at Montecito was a really big

00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.619
one for us. And we were successful there. So

00:36:48.619 --> 00:36:51.820
that validated some training methods for me.

00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:56.559
After that was the Paradise Fire. The Paradise

00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:01.119
Fire was, you know, I had responded. My first

00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.360
disaster was a San Bruno pipeline explosion,

00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:06.500
which killed a bunch of people here in San Bruno.

00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:08.739
They thought it was a plane crash, but it was

00:37:08.739 --> 00:37:12.949
really a PG &E. Maine that exploded. And that

00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:16.429
was one thing. That was like a localized, like

00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:18.889
one block of a neighborhood burned down, two

00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:21.909
blocks of a neighborhood. Paradise was, you know,

00:37:21.909 --> 00:37:24.329
three cities that were destroyed, whether it

00:37:24.329 --> 00:37:30.090
was Paradise, Concow, or Megalia. And that became

00:37:30.090 --> 00:37:34.630
mentally challenging because we would drive up

00:37:34.630 --> 00:37:38.510
from Chico and the entire town was nuked. There

00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:42.590
was just disaster everywhere. It would be 20

00:37:42.590 --> 00:37:44.849
minutes of driving and all it was was burnt homes.

00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:49.829
So the sheer size of that was challenging. The

00:37:49.829 --> 00:37:54.530
mental part of it when we arrived there as part

00:37:54.530 --> 00:37:58.030
of my task force was there were 1 ,500 people

00:37:58.030 --> 00:38:01.389
reported missing at the time in 15 ,000 homes.

00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:03.829
So you're thinking in your mind, I should be

00:38:03.829 --> 00:38:06.750
finding somebody in one every 10 homes or so.

00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:11.639
And when you don't, that becomes sort of a mental

00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:16.280
mind fuck, so to speak, because you wonder what's

00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:17.739
wrong with your dog. Are we doing this right?

00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:20.420
Are we missing people? We are going to be the

00:38:20.420 --> 00:38:23.260
only chance of actually finding people because

00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:25.500
we don't have enough teams to come back and do

00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:29.280
a secondary sweep. Well, it turned out there

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:32.019
was 85 people who died in that fire. And so the

00:38:32.019 --> 00:38:36.579
dogs did well. There were some. big improvements

00:38:36.579 --> 00:38:40.199
that needed to happen afterwards. But it was

00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:42.820
certainly notable for me just based on the size.

00:38:43.659 --> 00:38:49.340
And that started me down a path of there should

00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:51.860
not be such a big divide between the law enforcement

00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:55.280
wilderness handlers and the fire urban search

00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.559
and rescue handlers. And I'm still fighting that

00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.360
battle today. You know, there's always that,

00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:03.460
you know, cops versus firefighters saying this.

00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.940
you know dog people are notoriously mean to each

00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:11.579
other um and they like their little clicks and

00:39:11.579 --> 00:39:15.059
i hate that and i think it it does no service

00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:18.820
to the the search dog practice to have these

00:39:18.820 --> 00:39:21.119
little camps rather than all of us working together

00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:27.019
so paradise was a big one um and then we did

00:39:27.019 --> 00:39:31.260
my team went down to The Palisades fire, I was

00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:33.559
not a part of that because we had some staffing

00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:35.840
issues at my department, so they wouldn't let

00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:40.639
me go. And then the Texas floods, that was a

00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:44.380
21 -day deployment, so that was a very long deployment

00:39:44.380 --> 00:39:47.019
for the dogs. We learned how to work in some

00:39:47.019 --> 00:39:51.179
heat, and we were asked to do things that we

00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:53.380
don't normally do, like work off of boats and

00:39:53.380 --> 00:39:56.480
things like that. It seems like every time we

00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:58.980
get a pretty big disaster, there's huge lessons

00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:01.739
to learn and you go back and change your training.

00:40:03.219 --> 00:40:05.099
It's amazing to hear because it's just an area

00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:08.119
that we don't hear very much about at all. One

00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.780
of my captains in Anaheim when I worked out in

00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:13.079
California was an arson investigator and he had

00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.199
an arson dog, I think. No, I think it was a USAR

00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:18.739
dog. Actually, I take that back. But going back

00:40:18.739 --> 00:40:22.059
to what you're talking about. This is the problem,

00:40:22.179 --> 00:40:23.780
I think, with, you know, I think this is one

00:40:23.780 --> 00:40:27.380
of the symptoms of the downward spiral of the

00:40:27.380 --> 00:40:29.320
fire services recruitment and retention, which

00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:31.280
I'm assuming was probably behind why you didn't

00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:34.860
go to the Palisades, is we have counties and

00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:37.000
cities that don't talk to each other, FD, FD.

00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:40.780
We have FD, PD. And there's one mission, you

00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:42.900
know, to protect the people that we serve in

00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:45.019
this entire nation. So the moment you create

00:40:45.019 --> 00:40:47.139
these silos and you break down communication.

00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:50.250
You know, the higher chance there is of a Novaldi

00:40:50.250 --> 00:40:52.590
or a Parkland or whatever the, you know, God

00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:55.250
forbid disaster where a lot of people died, partly

00:40:55.250 --> 00:40:57.230
because of lack of leadership and communication.

00:40:57.449 --> 00:41:00.949
So it makes perfect sense. I mean, I had Mike

00:41:00.949 --> 00:41:04.670
Goosby on the show, who's LAPD. canine guru,

00:41:04.869 --> 00:41:07.570
you know, I'm sure you and him in a room and

00:41:07.570 --> 00:41:09.289
have all kinds of things and knowledge to share,

00:41:09.349 --> 00:41:11.409
you know, if we can break down these silos and

00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:14.110
these walls and get rid of the egos that exist

00:41:14.110 --> 00:41:16.289
in some of these communities so that we can just,

00:41:16.369 --> 00:41:18.989
as you said, the rising side, rising tide lifts

00:41:18.989 --> 00:41:20.849
all ships. It's the same in our profession too.

00:41:21.409 --> 00:41:23.269
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I mentioned

00:41:23.269 --> 00:41:25.690
there's a couple mentors that just showed up

00:41:25.690 --> 00:41:27.329
at the right time. And one was a guy named Don

00:41:27.329 --> 00:41:30.650
Urnell and Don started the LA police dog program.

00:41:31.179 --> 00:41:35.280
Back in the 80s. And he had a contract to teach

00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.860
to Oakland PD. And so he actually stayed at my

00:41:37.860 --> 00:41:42.599
house, you know, and for months at a time. And

00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:45.219
so every night would be like sitting on the knee

00:41:45.219 --> 00:41:47.820
of a master. And he would explain this entirely

00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:51.159
different training methodology, which I employed

00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.039
with my dog, George, when we went to Montecito.

00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:56.280
So every once in a while, you need somebody to

00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.420
step up and sort of break down some barriers

00:41:58.420 --> 00:42:00.940
and say. we're all doing the same thing here,

00:42:00.940 --> 00:42:03.940
guys. We all need to be a little bit better.

00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:07.360
And so that's what I'm trying to do. It's one

00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:11.039
of my pet projects as a search and rescue dog

00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.260
handler is to create the bridge to the other

00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:16.900
side because there's nothing better than when

00:42:16.900 --> 00:42:19.519
we show up in Texas to be able to pick up the

00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:22.639
phone and go, hey, Shirley, I know you're here

00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:24.559
as well. What's really happening? What do we

00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:27.039
need to know? What do we need to bring? And have

00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:30.900
a friendship there. And not this sort of, you

00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:33.679
know, I hate to say dick measuring, but there's

00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:35.559
a dick measuring contest that happens at all

00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:37.360
of these types of things. And it's terrible.

00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:41.400
Absolutely. Well, that's obviously the dog specific

00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.880
deployments. Let's just kind of walk through

00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:46.579
up to where we are now as far as the other side.

00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:50.679
So notable calls, fires, et cetera, in your career

00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:55.980
that didn't involve the canine. So I work as

00:42:55.980 --> 00:42:58.559
a captain paramedic right now on our USAR in

00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:04.320
my city. And so most of my calls that I would

00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.679
say are notable are on the medical side. The

00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.840
fires have become so, so rare that it's hard

00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:13.599
to even call ourselves a fire department, really,

00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:21.440
because we do so much more. So I've had I've

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:25.039
had calls with. um obviously the kids calls nobody

00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:28.639
likes those but when i i went out on ptsd for

00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:31.760
a while and one of the calls i remember was a

00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:36.519
13 year old who hung herself and i was working

00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:39.099
as the medic on the usar at the time so i was

00:43:39.099 --> 00:43:44.300
the second medic in and she hung herself in the

00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:46.599
laundry room of their their house and i work

00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:50.139
in a in a nice really nice area like that medium

00:43:50.139 --> 00:43:52.739
home price is a couple million bucks she hung

00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:55.500
herself in the laundry room this 13 year old

00:43:55.500 --> 00:44:01.079
girl with a dog leash and something about that

00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:05.119
dog leash i just could not get out of my mind

00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:11.000
and i can't recall a lot of details of that call

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.579
i can't tell you exactly who was there i can

00:44:13.579 --> 00:44:16.420
tell you the medicines i pushed i can tell you

00:44:17.070 --> 00:44:21.610
what the mom sounded like screaming. And, you

00:44:21.610 --> 00:44:24.230
know, we oftentimes talk about what we see with

00:44:24.230 --> 00:44:28.190
these PTSD things, but for me, it's always the

00:44:28.190 --> 00:44:31.130
smells and the sounds that bring me back. And

00:44:31.130 --> 00:44:34.969
we don't talk about that too much, about walking

00:44:34.969 --> 00:44:39.269
into the Home Depot and the click of their AC

00:44:39.269 --> 00:44:41.929
unit is the same click right before the tones

00:44:41.929 --> 00:44:44.940
drop at one of our stations. And all of a sudden

00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:47.519
you get that adrenaline dump just from that going

00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:52.039
off. So like I said, just get back to your question.

00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.699
There's been a ton of medical calls. I've had

00:44:54.699 --> 00:44:58.420
jumpers. I've had train versus pedestrian. I've

00:44:58.420 --> 00:45:03.239
had lots of those. But through my own therapy

00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:05.019
and my own growth and some of the things I've

00:45:05.019 --> 00:45:10.480
done, what I've learned is that very few of the

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:13.800
things that really bother us. go back to actually

00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:17.659
going in the rooms again. A lot of it comes from

00:45:17.659 --> 00:45:21.920
childhood and the armor we've put on or the relationships

00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:28.219
that hurt us. And so every firefighter you've

00:45:28.219 --> 00:45:32.519
had on the show has the terrible calls that none

00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:36.800
of us really want to talk about again. But it's

00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:38.760
more than that that I think causes a lot of the

00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:43.019
issues for first responders. Absolutely. well

00:45:43.019 --> 00:45:44.579
walk me through that then you mentioned about

00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:47.320
going out on ptsd for a while what was your kind

00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:49.420
of roller coaster mental health journey prior

00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:54.320
to psychedelics so i mentioned that i was kind

00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:58.059
of searching starting back from like 2001 you

00:45:58.059 --> 00:46:03.019
know i i had um i was in new york for 9 11 i

00:46:03.019 --> 00:46:08.739
was down by the pile on september 12th and they

00:46:08.739 --> 00:46:12.360
were asking for ironworkers and ems and those

00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:14.380
people were being allowed to access the pile

00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:17.880
and nobody was asking for a banker or cpa and

00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:22.579
i felt a sense of uselessness um that i had no

00:46:22.579 --> 00:46:27.239
real skills no hard skills like nobody needs

00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:29.500
an audit right now nobody needs a fundraiser

00:46:29.500 --> 00:46:32.539
right now so that's sort of where it started

00:46:32.539 --> 00:46:35.739
um and then it was the seeking thing it was getting

00:46:35.739 --> 00:46:38.900
the dog and then thinking okay i'll i'll I'll

00:46:38.900 --> 00:46:42.199
be a helper. I'll go be a firefighter. And that

00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:46.760
was fantastic until 2016 when I hurt my back

00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:49.940
for the first time. And I was off for about nine

00:46:49.940 --> 00:46:54.219
months with an L5S1 microdiscectomy surgery.

00:46:54.460 --> 00:46:57.340
So not a major surgery, but a surgery nonetheless.

00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:04.260
And part of that was inability to sleep. So back

00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:07.179
then we had Fitbits. i would wear to kind of

00:47:07.179 --> 00:47:10.260
distract because i was curious and for a couple

00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:12.000
months it would be an hour and a half to two

00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.860
hours a night of sleep and the rest of time i

00:47:14.860 --> 00:47:18.340
was uncomfortable so as part of this in 2016

00:47:18.340 --> 00:47:22.579
it was here's some norco some painkillers um

00:47:22.579 --> 00:47:25.460
let us know if this doesn't work so you proceed

00:47:25.460 --> 00:47:29.039
from the you know from the five norcos to the

00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:33.400
ten norcos and you know, by the time I was ready

00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:35.820
to come back to work, they were giving me morphine,

00:47:35.820 --> 00:47:38.820
morphine pills, just, you know, here's a couple

00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:41.300
bottles after your surgery, just, you know, try

00:47:41.300 --> 00:47:42.960
not to take a bunch at the same time, because,

00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.139
you know, it could kill you. And you don't want

00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:49.300
to get addicted. Like I, nobody sets out for

00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:51.139
addiction, but there is a physical addiction

00:47:51.139 --> 00:47:56.000
that is inevitable that comes with that. So,

00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:00.699
you know, at that time, I was not sleeping, I

00:48:00.699 --> 00:48:05.019
was Definitely addicted. And there was that question

00:48:05.019 --> 00:48:07.079
about whether I could come back or not. Who am

00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:11.739
I if I'm not a firefighter? Where's my community?

00:48:13.300 --> 00:48:16.199
Me and my wife were not getting along. Now my

00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:18.260
ex -wife. We're not getting along very well at

00:48:18.260 --> 00:48:19.940
the time. So there's all these things sort of

00:48:19.940 --> 00:48:26.420
happening. And I felt very, very lost. Kind of

00:48:26.420 --> 00:48:30.630
like a who am I moment. So, you know, the best

00:48:30.630 --> 00:48:32.929
thing I could do was to get myself back to work

00:48:32.929 --> 00:48:35.409
and give me something to do, I thought. So, you

00:48:35.409 --> 00:48:37.429
know, after my back surgery, my back wasn't hurting

00:48:37.429 --> 00:48:39.630
anymore, but I was definitely taking all those

00:48:39.630 --> 00:48:42.210
pills. And they said, well, you can't go back

00:48:42.210 --> 00:48:44.769
to work until you're off all these meds. And

00:48:44.769 --> 00:48:47.250
so I said, all right, well, I could do that.

00:48:47.369 --> 00:48:50.769
So I locked myself in a room at my house for

00:48:50.769 --> 00:48:53.090
about two weeks and about a day and a half in.

00:48:53.170 --> 00:48:55.010
I said, man, I think I'm getting, I think I'm

00:48:55.010 --> 00:48:57.449
coming down with the flu. And it hit me then

00:48:57.449 --> 00:49:00.750
that I was dope sick. Like I was a legit addict.

00:49:01.570 --> 00:49:05.550
And so I was able to, to stick with it. And,

00:49:05.550 --> 00:49:09.610
and I haven't taken those, those type of painkillers

00:49:09.610 --> 00:49:12.010
since, but it was definitely a humbling thing

00:49:12.010 --> 00:49:16.769
that I, who I thought very highly of could get

00:49:16.769 --> 00:49:19.829
myself addicted to something without me even

00:49:19.829 --> 00:49:22.889
really knowing it was happening. And all of a

00:49:22.889 --> 00:49:25.099
sudden it was like an, Oh shit, I'm. I'm freaking

00:49:25.099 --> 00:49:27.659
addicted to these. Like I have a physical problem

00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:34.699
getting off of these. So I thought everything

00:49:34.699 --> 00:49:38.739
would be great. I went back to work and had the

00:49:38.739 --> 00:49:42.920
tough calls and got sort of put into more senior

00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:46.500
positions in the department. And something was

00:49:46.500 --> 00:49:51.840
still nagging me. And, you know, at the time.

00:49:52.429 --> 00:49:56.190
My marriage wasn't particularly good. And I didn't

00:49:56.190 --> 00:50:00.230
have some of the tough conversations. And I met

00:50:00.230 --> 00:50:04.469
a woman. She made me feel very alive. Had an

00:50:04.469 --> 00:50:08.010
affair. And it was the worst thing I could ever

00:50:08.010 --> 00:50:13.989
do. Like, it was such a violation of who I was

00:50:13.989 --> 00:50:18.750
as a person. And such a letdown to myself that

00:50:18.750 --> 00:50:23.659
I could... let myself fall that far and I could

00:50:23.659 --> 00:50:26.360
do something that I never thought I would ever

00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:28.619
ever do and that's have an affair with somebody

00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:33.360
else and step out on my wife and I don't think

00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:35.000
things would have worked out with my ex -wife

00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:38.599
but this certainly was you know the hammer that

00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:44.659
that cracked it all and um I wish I hadn't done

00:50:44.659 --> 00:50:50.360
that but what did happen in that was That feeling

00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:54.760
of being alive, of being loved was overwhelming.

00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:58.699
And it made me realize that had been missing

00:50:58.699 --> 00:51:03.679
for a long time. So the thing about putting the

00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:06.980
armor on is you're protected from the outside,

00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.579
but it also prevents all those feelings from

00:51:10.579 --> 00:51:13.280
getting through, the good feelings. It prevents

00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:18.340
those feelings from coming out. And I was basically

00:51:18.340 --> 00:51:21.800
numb at the time. And I was doing whatever I

00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:23.619
could to numb myself, whether that's opioids,

00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:27.519
whether that's online shopping, whether it's

00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:31.719
the womanizing. And all of that was to avoid

00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:34.920
those feelings that were just below the surface.

00:51:35.539 --> 00:51:40.260
And I've met a lot of guys that will cry in their

00:51:40.260 --> 00:51:43.219
car at that one song, but would never cry at

00:51:43.219 --> 00:51:50.000
home talking to their loved ones. And so my wife

00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:51.980
and I split up. I became one of the statistics

00:51:51.980 --> 00:51:54.500
of firefighters who have an ex -wife. And that

00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:58.179
seems like most of us these days. And it was

00:51:58.179 --> 00:52:03.599
all my fault. And now I was still on that path

00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:05.780
of like, how did I become that person that would

00:52:05.780 --> 00:52:11.519
ever step out on my wife? And, you know, we talked

00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.619
about the dog stuff and the dog world is very,

00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:18.500
very small. A little bit of time went by. I met

00:52:18.500 --> 00:52:22.280
my current wife, Angela, who is a saint and is

00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:27.619
no question the one I should be with. And I was

00:52:27.619 --> 00:52:29.980
back at work and things were going well. And

00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:33.280
then I hurt my back again. And this was the second

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:35.500
sort of major back injury. And for most people

00:52:35.500 --> 00:52:38.199
in the fire service, a couple back injuries,

00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:41.900
a couple back surgeries, you're pretty much done,

00:52:42.019 --> 00:52:46.449
right? You know, at first, it's great. I'm in

00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:49.670
this relationship with Angela and she's off work

00:52:49.670 --> 00:52:51.469
because she also has a back injury. You know,

00:52:51.469 --> 00:52:55.590
Angela is also a firefighter and and happy hour

00:52:55.590 --> 00:52:58.590
starts at five. And, you know, then happy hour

00:52:58.590 --> 00:53:02.429
starts at three and then it's noon. And before

00:53:02.429 --> 00:53:05.010
you know it, every time you go to the store,

00:53:05.110 --> 00:53:08.769
you're having to restock on high noons. And and

00:53:08.769 --> 00:53:12.909
it was like, oh, man. I think I got a problem

00:53:12.909 --> 00:53:17.090
again. because I would look forward to that drink

00:53:17.090 --> 00:53:22.909
every day, that first drink. And then I went

00:53:22.909 --> 00:53:24.510
through a little bit of a change and I'm like,

00:53:24.570 --> 00:53:26.829
okay, I'm going to fix this. I'll start using

00:53:26.829 --> 00:53:30.070
gummies. Gummies are better. The weed is healthier.

00:53:30.409 --> 00:53:32.289
It's, you know, I'm not taking in all those calories.

00:53:33.550 --> 00:53:36.610
That'll be better. And then you realize, like,

00:53:36.670 --> 00:53:40.980
I shouldn't need a gummy every day. Back to what's

00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:43.380
wrong with me, what's going on. So the dog world's

00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:46.800
small. And I had a friend named Jimmy. Jimmy

00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:51.440
was a dog handler with SEAL Team 6 and now helps

00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:55.619
working dogs with his nonprofit. And we would

00:53:55.619 --> 00:53:57.940
have really honest conversations. Jimmy wrote

00:53:57.940 --> 00:54:00.119
a book called Touching the Dragon, which I read.

00:54:01.219 --> 00:54:05.289
And in it, he pretty much... opens up everything

00:54:05.289 --> 00:54:08.730
about his failures you know what happened to

00:54:08.730 --> 00:54:11.989
him after he got shot and he doesn't hold back

00:54:11.989 --> 00:54:15.510
and that idea that he could talk about those

00:54:15.510 --> 00:54:18.750
things that were hurting him that that really

00:54:18.750 --> 00:54:21.110
inspired me so jimmy and i became friends and

00:54:21.110 --> 00:54:23.909
jimmy could see i was hurting and he sort of

00:54:23.909 --> 00:54:26.170
put his arm around me and gave me a card and

00:54:26.170 --> 00:54:29.969
said hey here's the number to martine from mission

00:54:29.969 --> 00:54:32.820
within Michigan Within will help you guys. And

00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:38.139
so we went down that path. And Angela was the

00:54:38.139 --> 00:54:43.000
first to go down there and go down to sneak across

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.079
the border, do the medicine. And the change in

00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:52.000
her was immediate. And she was kind enough not

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:55.659
to overshare her experience. So I did not develop

00:54:55.659 --> 00:55:00.900
expectations for my own journey. It's life -changing,

00:55:00.980 --> 00:55:05.960
man. And when I was through my journey, I was

00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:11.559
so at peace with everything and very angry that

00:55:11.559 --> 00:55:13.980
it took knowing like a SEAL Team 6 guy to be

00:55:13.980 --> 00:55:17.539
able to access this medicine and even hear about

00:55:17.539 --> 00:55:20.079
it because nobody was really talking about it

00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:25.880
back then. And the funding, the finances to be

00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:28.559
able to go forward to do it. And so that's when

00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:30.840
Angela and I started the Siren Project because

00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:35.320
we could not keep this to ourselves. Talk to

00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:38.920
me about after the experience. One of the things

00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:41.559
that I hear a lot when it comes to psychedelics

00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:43.980
is, you know, some people will do the journey

00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:46.400
and then that's kind of it. And the integration

00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:49.699
piece is missing. um and the people that seem

00:55:49.699 --> 00:55:52.119
to have a lot of a lot of success recently as

00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.659
there's the wisdom dojo um you know where they're

00:55:54.659 --> 00:55:56.739
focusing on the breath work and the meditation

00:55:56.739 --> 00:56:00.400
and the journaling and and then obviously amplifying

00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:03.699
the healing that you see what did you feel immediately

00:56:03.699 --> 00:56:06.400
post journey and then you know what was your

00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:09.960
experience as far as um continuing that healing

00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:12.400
without having to keep revisiting journeys all

00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:16.650
the time um You touched on integration is the

00:56:16.650 --> 00:56:20.190
most important piece of this. And so much energy

00:56:20.190 --> 00:56:23.789
and focus is on the journey itself. And at the

00:56:23.789 --> 00:56:26.789
end, that's really a very, very small portion

00:56:26.789 --> 00:56:31.590
of the whole thing. So I knew there was a change

00:56:31.590 --> 00:56:34.170
in me as soon as I got to the airport in Mexico.

00:56:34.469 --> 00:56:37.469
And I'll tell you why. Because normally when

00:56:37.469 --> 00:56:39.829
I'm in an airport, I'm sitting there and I'm

00:56:39.829 --> 00:56:42.929
looking at, oh my God, what is she wearing? How

00:56:42.929 --> 00:56:44.900
did she think she can get away with that? like

00:56:44.900 --> 00:56:48.139
who do these people like wow that guy's really

00:56:48.139 --> 00:56:52.460
fat and my judgments were gone i had zero negative

00:56:52.460 --> 00:56:58.300
judgments um i had this very clear realization

00:56:58.300 --> 00:57:01.400
that we are all connected we truly are all brothers

00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:07.619
and sisters and that sort of i felt lighter that

00:57:07.619 --> 00:57:12.420
that desire to judge or put myself higher than

00:57:12.420 --> 00:57:15.590
other people was gone And so that's when I knew

00:57:15.590 --> 00:57:18.250
it was working. And that's when I knew that there

00:57:18.250 --> 00:57:21.929
really was something to this. The integration

00:57:21.929 --> 00:57:25.250
part really is where the rubber meets the road,

00:57:25.309 --> 00:57:27.610
though, because for a lot of people, they talk

00:57:27.610 --> 00:57:29.590
about the pink cloud and the first couple of

00:57:29.590 --> 00:57:32.150
weeks after journey, everything is great and

00:57:32.150 --> 00:57:36.010
magical. And you're on this elevated feeling

00:57:36.010 --> 00:57:38.269
while you have all this neuroplasticity going

00:57:38.269 --> 00:57:41.110
on. But if you don't stick with it and change

00:57:41.110 --> 00:57:45.340
your underlying habits. then it just becomes

00:57:45.340 --> 00:57:47.440
an interesting story of the time you went down

00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:50.440
to Mexico and did drugs. So this is medicine

00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:52.679
and this is meant to be like a lifelong thing.

00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:55.500
And you've never heard anybody in the gym say,

00:57:55.659 --> 00:57:59.239
I have achieved fitness. I no longer have to

00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:02.400
come to the gym, right? Yet in mental health,

00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:05.820
it's, I want to be fixed or cured. And there

00:58:05.820 --> 00:58:10.260
is no fix because as soon as you have dealt with

00:58:10.260 --> 00:58:13.050
that issue, that you think you're there for,

00:58:13.170 --> 00:58:16.489
it opens up for more things that, okay, well

00:58:16.489 --> 00:58:18.949
that's, everybody thinks they're coming down

00:58:18.949 --> 00:58:22.750
because of that one call or that one kid or,

00:58:22.849 --> 00:58:27.170
but it's very rarely about that. It's usually

00:58:27.170 --> 00:58:30.389
all about something you have been avoiding thinking

00:58:30.389 --> 00:58:34.150
about for a long, long time. And so that integration

00:58:34.150 --> 00:58:37.389
is where we make the daily practices change so

00:58:37.389 --> 00:58:42.800
that you can maintain that feeling. and that

00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:45.639
change in your life. And that starts with, you

00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:48.019
know, there's, there's the things we do to keep

00:58:48.019 --> 00:58:51.420
people present. So that could be meditation.

00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.579
That could be horse therapy. For me, it's dog

00:58:54.579 --> 00:58:59.159
training. But the gratitude practice that we

00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:04.079
have people learn is really where, where we see

00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:08.199
the change. You know, we have 70 ,000 thoughts

00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:11.869
a day that go through your brain. About 75 %

00:59:11.869 --> 00:59:15.110
of them are negative thoughts and about half

00:59:15.110 --> 00:59:18.429
of those are rumination. So why didn't I do this?

00:59:18.469 --> 00:59:20.230
Why did I say to that person? Why am I dressed

00:59:20.230 --> 00:59:23.769
like this? Why am I fat? And that sort of negative

00:59:23.769 --> 00:59:28.050
talk your body listens to. And so as we change

00:59:28.050 --> 00:59:30.909
that to more gratitude practices, we can realize

00:59:30.909 --> 00:59:34.309
how blessed our life really is because we all

00:59:34.309 --> 00:59:37.449
lose it. None of us wake up in the morning and

00:59:37.449 --> 00:59:40.440
say. I'm so grateful I can open my eyes and see

00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:42.139
today. I'm so grateful I'm here in this warm

00:59:42.139 --> 00:59:46.300
bed. I'm so grateful that when I step off the

00:59:46.300 --> 00:59:48.179
bed, I have two healthy legs that I can walk

00:59:48.179 --> 00:59:52.099
to get coffee in my kitchen. We have no appreciation

00:59:52.099 --> 00:59:54.039
for all the wonderful things we have, especially

00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:58.920
here in the United States. I mean, that literally

00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:01.960
nails it. I mean, it really does. Because when

01:00:01.960 --> 01:00:04.800
you think about some of the practices that outside

01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:07.820
of... Any of these retreats that we're told are

01:00:07.820 --> 01:00:09.139
good for you. And this is one thing I do every

01:00:09.139 --> 01:00:11.780
morning is the five minute journal. And it literally

01:00:11.780 --> 01:00:14.860
is forcing you to do that because I'll sit on

01:00:14.860 --> 01:00:16.780
my back porch and be three things that I'm grateful

01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:18.539
for. And after a few days, you don't want to

01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:20.639
repeat it either. So then you're like, well,

01:00:20.739 --> 01:00:24.000
the birds that I can hear right now. Yeah. The

01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.099
fact that I have clothes, you know, big one,

01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:28.239
my child's health. I mean, and then all of a

01:00:28.239 --> 01:00:30.800
sudden you're reframing everything. And then

01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:33.340
the kind of as, you know, alluding to. where

01:00:33.340 --> 01:00:37.099
your world was 20 years prior, that consumerism,

01:00:37.179 --> 01:00:40.320
that worshipping of the holy monopoly, all of

01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:43.380
a sudden just seems so wrong and ridiculous.

01:00:43.900 --> 01:00:47.780
But I could not agree more. We are by far the

01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:51.320
most fortunate company, I'm sorry, company, as

01:00:51.320 --> 01:00:54.980
a Freudian slip, country, you know, on the planet,

01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:57.530
really, if you look at it. As far as the opportunities,

01:00:57.789 --> 01:01:01.570
as far as the national wealth, we're so, so fortunate

01:01:01.570 --> 01:01:06.010
you were born here and not Syria or Gaza or insert

01:01:06.010 --> 01:01:08.670
somewhere where your home might be vaporized

01:01:08.670 --> 01:01:12.369
as we speak. But we have absolutely lost that.

01:01:12.489 --> 01:01:16.130
So if these journeys did nothing but reframed

01:01:16.130 --> 01:01:18.789
your gratitude for what you have, that alone.

01:01:19.610 --> 01:01:22.269
on a mental health element is groundbreaking,

01:01:22.710 --> 01:01:25.510
not to mention then starting to address the trauma

01:01:25.510 --> 01:01:27.650
that you didn't even realize, you know, as I

01:01:27.650 --> 01:01:29.949
always say, the pee beneath the mattress. When

01:01:29.949 --> 01:01:32.070
you start seeing that, that you were so focused

01:01:32.070 --> 01:01:35.030
on that triple PD fatality that you had, and

01:01:35.030 --> 01:01:36.869
you didn't realize that your father leaving when

01:01:36.869 --> 01:01:39.489
you were five was actually the biggest, you know,

01:01:39.510 --> 01:01:42.150
crack in your foundation. Now, I mean, you can

01:01:42.150 --> 01:01:44.309
just see all the layers of potential healing

01:01:44.309 --> 01:01:47.409
if, as you alluded to, You see them and then

01:01:47.409 --> 01:01:49.190
you keep working on them. And then as you turn

01:01:49.190 --> 01:01:50.909
the page, oh, there's this other thing. Okay,

01:01:50.969 --> 01:01:52.909
well, let me start leaning into that too as well.

01:01:54.570 --> 01:01:58.829
Yeah, absolutely. And my own journey, I have

01:01:58.829 --> 01:02:01.329
this idea that it'd be great to be finished,

01:02:01.369 --> 01:02:03.929
but it's never going to be finished. There's

01:02:03.929 --> 01:02:07.929
more and more. And at some point, for some of

01:02:07.929 --> 01:02:12.789
us, it becomes almost fun to take these. onion

01:02:12.789 --> 01:02:15.030
peels off and find out what's underneath because

01:02:15.030 --> 01:02:18.610
the the simple fact of it for most americans

01:02:18.610 --> 01:02:21.809
we don't truly know who we are like who we really

01:02:21.809 --> 01:02:26.130
really are we're more products of of the environment

01:02:26.130 --> 01:02:29.510
and the consumerism and how we were raised and

01:02:29.510 --> 01:02:32.690
the expectations put on us and all the things

01:02:32.690 --> 01:02:35.269
that we were told would make us happy are very

01:02:35.269 --> 01:02:37.130
rarely the things that actually make us happy

01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:40.719
One thing that I've started talking about when

01:02:40.719 --> 01:02:43.380
it comes to physical and mental health, all things

01:02:43.380 --> 01:02:47.199
firefighter health, is if you look at SEAL Team

01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:51.559
6, I've had numerous guys from the Tier 1 organizations

01:02:51.559 --> 01:02:55.340
on the show. They have psychologists, nutritionists,

01:02:55.360 --> 01:02:57.719
strength and conditioning trainers, neuroscientists,

01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:00.059
all these people working with them to forge the

01:03:00.059 --> 01:03:03.320
highest level of performance. Now, day in, day

01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:05.880
out, our first responders are asked to do life

01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:09.730
-saving interventions. our strength and conditioning

01:03:09.730 --> 01:03:13.269
psychology conversations are well they keep dying

01:03:13.269 --> 01:03:15.789
so how do we how do we stop them dying as much

01:03:15.789 --> 01:03:19.050
and there's such a chasm between that and performance

01:03:19.050 --> 01:03:22.469
so where i'm excited is you know well let's talk

01:03:22.469 --> 01:03:25.949
about forging performance and if we do that the

01:03:25.949 --> 01:03:28.090
the you know the byproduct will be if anyone's

01:03:28.090 --> 01:03:30.429
struggling well these same tools are going to

01:03:30.429 --> 01:03:32.329
help pull them from there as well it's the same

01:03:32.329 --> 01:03:37.139
conversation yep post journey What did you and

01:03:37.139 --> 01:03:39.840
Angela start experiencing as far as your ability

01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:42.360
to do the job, just your sheer performance post,

01:03:42.460 --> 01:03:46.639
you know, post retreat? So there's, there's a,

01:03:46.659 --> 01:03:49.719
man, that is, that's a big one, right? Cause

01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:51.880
like, how does, does it actually mean anything

01:03:51.880 --> 01:03:55.699
at the end of the day? So how I was able to do

01:03:55.699 --> 01:03:57.739
the job, I I'd like to start by saying I was

01:03:57.739 --> 01:04:01.980
able to get back to my job. So during my second

01:04:01.980 --> 01:04:06.409
back injury, I was also, uh, I took, time off

01:04:06.409 --> 01:04:08.610
for ptsd also through the workers comp process

01:04:08.610 --> 01:04:12.030
in the past that has sort of been the death of

01:04:12.030 --> 01:04:15.050
your career right like once you're on a ptsd

01:04:15.050 --> 01:04:17.829
clean claim there are departments that just will

01:04:17.829 --> 01:04:19.829
never send you back to the line and i didn't

01:04:19.829 --> 01:04:23.329
want that to be me um and in fact even today

01:04:23.329 --> 01:04:25.530
around my department i've heard things like we've

01:04:25.530 --> 01:04:27.630
never had a ptsd claim and i'm here like hey

01:04:27.630 --> 01:04:30.369
i i did like i need to be i'm out there with

01:04:30.369 --> 01:04:34.010
like i was on a ptsd claim and i came back So

01:04:34.010 --> 01:04:36.670
it's important for people who are out there to

01:04:36.670 --> 01:04:39.449
not have that idea that you can't come back.

01:04:39.510 --> 01:04:42.989
So the medicine, number one, helps me get back

01:04:42.989 --> 01:04:46.869
to my job and get back to my job way faster than

01:04:46.869 --> 01:04:50.510
I ever would had I gone down the SSRI and talk

01:04:50.510 --> 01:04:52.989
therapy route for me. It might not be true for

01:04:52.989 --> 01:04:55.349
everybody, but for me, it was a much faster route

01:04:55.349 --> 01:05:01.980
back. But what we don't talk about is. how you

01:05:01.980 --> 01:05:05.840
relate with your environment then. So one of

01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:09.539
the things the medicine gives you is space between

01:05:09.539 --> 01:05:15.699
action and reaction. So for firefighters, that

01:05:15.699 --> 01:05:19.219
can mean I can sit there at a traumatic, chaotic

01:05:19.219 --> 01:05:22.500
scene and have the presence of mind to be calm

01:05:22.500 --> 01:05:24.980
and see everything around me and make the right

01:05:24.980 --> 01:05:28.500
decision and not the emotional, I'm amped up

01:05:28.500 --> 01:05:32.690
decision. So that creates a safer place. But

01:05:32.690 --> 01:05:35.730
what it does on a person to person is my compassion

01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:39.409
levels for my patients are through the roof.

01:05:40.349 --> 01:05:43.210
We all have the patient who calls twice a day

01:05:43.210 --> 01:05:47.210
and never really has anything wrong, the frequent

01:05:47.210 --> 01:05:51.469
flyer. And those people burn out firefighters.

01:05:51.849 --> 01:05:55.349
And what I've found is I have way more gas in

01:05:55.349 --> 01:05:59.050
the tank. for some of those calls that are ridiculous.

01:05:59.809 --> 01:06:03.630
But I also have a lot more compassion for grandma

01:06:03.630 --> 01:06:06.869
who fell out of bed. And this isn't, you know,

01:06:06.889 --> 01:06:09.070
two 30 in the morning, let's get up so we can

01:06:09.070 --> 01:06:10.769
all get back to bed, get her back in her bed,

01:06:10.849 --> 01:06:14.289
wham, bam, see you later. I actually, you know,

01:06:14.289 --> 01:06:17.650
I want her to be, I see her situation and she's

01:06:17.650 --> 01:06:20.989
alone. And sometimes she just wants to talk to

01:06:20.989 --> 01:06:24.449
somebody and that's okay. I can be that person.

01:06:27.230 --> 01:06:29.849
I've totally reframed how I think about death

01:06:29.849 --> 01:06:34.909
and the dying process. So, you know, in my journey,

01:06:34.949 --> 01:06:37.050
I think I experienced what it was like to die.

01:06:37.449 --> 01:06:42.130
And when people die, they get, you know, a huge

01:06:42.130 --> 01:06:47.030
rush of DMT is what we've seen. Having experienced

01:06:47.030 --> 01:06:51.320
that. I get a glimpse of what it was like for

01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:53.739
them to die, what it's like to feel the expansiveness

01:06:53.739 --> 01:06:57.460
of the universe, to go into the light. And I

01:06:57.460 --> 01:07:01.880
can sit with that now. And it's not a sad thing.

01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:06.320
Death is just part of this. And so, you know,

01:07:06.320 --> 01:07:11.019
we go on codes and we have every once in a while

01:07:11.019 --> 01:07:13.579
you're able to make a save, but that's usually

01:07:13.579 --> 01:07:16.420
not the case. And that's just the realism of

01:07:16.420 --> 01:07:20.079
the job. And so to sit with that person as they

01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:23.519
pass and hold space for them while they go through

01:07:23.519 --> 01:07:27.420
that giant DMT dump that happens as they transition

01:07:27.420 --> 01:07:30.639
is a blessing and an honor to be able to do.

01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:33.199
And I don't see that now as I'm the last person

01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:35.659
and their only chance to live. It's I'm somebody

01:07:35.659 --> 01:07:38.599
who can help them transition to what is after

01:07:38.599 --> 01:07:43.440
this. And that has unburdened me from a lot of

01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:45.960
the... Was it my fault? Should I have done more?

01:07:46.119 --> 01:07:49.920
Did we do everything? When people need to transition,

01:07:50.059 --> 01:07:52.500
they transition. And that's good for me to be

01:07:52.500 --> 01:07:57.760
there as a calm, peaceful, safe place for them

01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:02.780
to do it. Not a chaotic, violent, loud sort of

01:08:02.780 --> 01:08:05.639
space. And I will do everything I can to save

01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:09.059
somebody. But I'm also very comfortable that

01:08:09.059 --> 01:08:11.079
I can be the last person there sitting with them

01:08:11.079 --> 01:08:12.619
when they die. And that's what everybody deserves.

01:08:14.219 --> 01:08:17.159
I had an Australian firefighter on Matt McLaughlin

01:08:17.159 --> 01:08:21.500
who was doing MDMA therapy and it was actually

01:08:21.500 --> 01:08:23.500
offered again, kind of like the workman's comp,

01:08:23.619 --> 01:08:26.279
which was pretty phenomenal over there, but he

01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.100
had a very similar experience and he'd had everything

01:08:29.100 --> 01:08:31.739
from losing his father and actually doing CPR

01:08:31.739 --> 01:08:33.560
on him all the way through to some of the calls

01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:36.680
and it completely reframed him. And it wasn't

01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:40.060
like we'd heard a lot with MDMA where it's kind

01:08:40.060 --> 01:08:43.149
of, you know, dampering the the response but

01:08:43.149 --> 01:08:45.189
it's the talk therapy that goes along with it

01:08:45.189 --> 01:08:48.270
that's really you know the making the biggest

01:08:48.270 --> 01:08:50.609
impact it was actually the experience and he

01:08:50.609 --> 01:08:53.489
didn't have a lot of talking but he revisited

01:08:53.489 --> 01:08:55.649
some of these tragic deaths and even when he

01:08:55.649 --> 01:08:57.350
was in the military he had to kill a couple people

01:08:57.350 --> 01:09:00.850
and it was turned into that they were grateful

01:09:00.850 --> 01:09:03.930
for him being there at that point you know like

01:09:03.930 --> 01:09:05.630
you said to hold space when they when they were

01:09:05.630 --> 01:09:08.449
transitioning so A lot of these different compounds,

01:09:08.569 --> 01:09:12.270
5 -MeO -DMT and ayahuasca and MDMA, you're hearing

01:09:12.270 --> 01:09:15.430
these very similar responses. And I think that

01:09:15.430 --> 01:09:17.510
compassion and empathy, what do we hear about?

01:09:17.590 --> 01:09:19.909
Compassion fatigue. We all know that burnt out,

01:09:19.970 --> 01:09:22.270
angry medic that, you know, you have to pull

01:09:22.270 --> 01:09:24.130
away from the scene before he gets arrested.

01:09:24.510 --> 01:09:26.430
You know, that's not who we were when we were

01:09:26.430 --> 01:09:28.590
in fire academy or paramedic school, you know.

01:09:28.689 --> 01:09:31.689
Exactly. And I think a really important conversation

01:09:31.689 --> 01:09:36.329
is knowing that most of us that toe the line.

01:09:36.699 --> 01:09:38.600
in the first responder, in the military, et cetera,

01:09:38.699 --> 01:09:42.420
have childhood trauma. And that's okay if it's

01:09:42.420 --> 01:09:45.220
addressed. So why are we not having the conversation

01:09:45.220 --> 01:09:48.399
in the first day of orientation saying, the fact

01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:50.619
that you are here when 99 % of the population

01:09:50.619 --> 01:09:54.420
doesn't want to do this job is admirable. But

01:09:54.420 --> 01:09:56.500
there are things that you've experienced as you

01:09:56.500 --> 01:10:00.010
progress through your childhood. that we want

01:10:00.010 --> 01:10:01.949
to start working through the same way as when

01:10:01.949 --> 01:10:03.970
we PT you on the drawground, we want to work

01:10:03.970 --> 01:10:06.449
on your strength and your mobility. So having

01:10:06.449 --> 01:10:08.750
those conversations, that expectation at the

01:10:08.750 --> 01:10:11.810
front door and using counseling sessions to start

01:10:11.810 --> 01:10:14.470
that conversation, reduce the barrier to entry

01:10:14.470 --> 01:10:16.770
and develop a relationship with a counselor,

01:10:16.909 --> 01:10:20.170
I think would be amazing. And then, you know,

01:10:20.170 --> 01:10:22.350
as we progress forward, some of these tools that

01:10:22.350 --> 01:10:25.069
you're talking about being available to process

01:10:25.069 --> 01:10:28.739
things if needed. Now you're taking that trauma

01:10:28.739 --> 01:10:30.340
that we had when we were young and you're turning

01:10:30.340 --> 01:10:32.960
it into a superpower and forging a high level

01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:36.960
of performance as a firefighter paramedic. I

01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:41.020
mean, there are some basic changes that I think

01:10:41.020 --> 01:10:43.319
need to happen in the fire service if we want

01:10:43.319 --> 01:10:45.100
to be able to continue. Because we certainly

01:10:45.100 --> 01:10:48.579
have a recruiting crisis. And we certainly, and

01:10:48.579 --> 01:10:50.479
that's because people are smart, right? Like

01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:52.960
we've done a great job of talking about our cancer

01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:54.840
rates. We've done a great job of talking about

01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:57.880
our divorce rates. Now people are talking about

01:10:57.880 --> 01:11:00.840
the mandatory rates that happen for their overtime.

01:11:01.079 --> 01:11:04.300
And we've, in California, changed the pension

01:11:04.300 --> 01:11:07.659
system so you can't retire until you're 57. And

01:11:07.659 --> 01:11:10.479
so we're at a point where people, there's no

01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:14.319
point for them applying until they're 27, at

01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:16.399
which point you've learned that, hey, cancer

01:11:16.399 --> 01:11:20.460
can be a real thing. And you've learned that,

01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:24.180
hey, maybe I'm already a manager at Google making

01:11:24.180 --> 01:11:26.960
$400 ,000 a year. It's hard to transition to

01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:32.300
a government paying job. And now we've been better

01:11:32.300 --> 01:11:33.720
at talking about the mental health that comes

01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:35.539
with this. So we have this underlying recruiting

01:11:35.539 --> 01:11:39.819
process because just like fire prevention, we've

01:11:39.819 --> 01:11:42.920
done a good job out there telling people about

01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:47.229
the problems of the profession. To me, if we

01:11:47.229 --> 01:11:50.170
can have a day one of Fire Academy, let's talk

01:11:50.170 --> 01:11:53.750
about resiliency. Let's talk about building your

01:11:53.750 --> 01:11:58.170
community of people that are not just other first

01:11:58.170 --> 01:12:00.829
responders, not other cops and firefighters who

01:12:00.829 --> 01:12:05.300
are outside and have sort of normal lives. And

01:12:05.300 --> 01:12:08.579
let's talk about which therapists you want to

01:12:08.579 --> 01:12:10.579
start seeing. So here's the list of people that

01:12:10.579 --> 01:12:13.239
we think are culturally competent. Choose from

01:12:13.239 --> 01:12:15.380
one here or choose from somewhere else. But you're

01:12:15.380 --> 01:12:16.800
going to do a phone call and get to know them.

01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:18.600
And you're going to put their phone number in

01:12:18.600 --> 01:12:22.020
your phone. And that's normal. And then we need

01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:25.779
to normalize these conversations around the kitchen

01:12:25.779 --> 01:12:28.659
table where we solve all the problems. But one

01:12:28.659 --> 01:12:30.539
thing we don't really talk about is, wow, man,

01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:33.979
that call really had trouble sleeping last night

01:12:33.979 --> 01:12:38.079
after that call. You don't hear that still. And

01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:42.180
so, you know, we've done things where I will

01:12:42.180 --> 01:12:46.000
try to take certain parts that I think can be

01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:48.680
talked about that we talk about in our retreats

01:12:48.680 --> 01:12:51.079
and do a gratitude practice. Okay, everybody

01:12:51.079 --> 01:12:53.399
go around the table. If you feel like it, say

01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:58.380
one thing you're grateful for today. But we are

01:12:58.380 --> 01:13:02.079
so far behind the curve now. You know, suicide

01:13:02.079 --> 01:13:06.869
rates are up 500%. for first responders. Even

01:13:06.869 --> 01:13:09.949
when they occur in departments, there's not always

01:13:09.949 --> 01:13:12.970
significant change that happens. We still want

01:13:12.970 --> 01:13:15.149
to sweep it all. We don't even know the number

01:13:15.149 --> 01:13:16.989
of suicides there are, right? So we don't have

01:13:16.989 --> 01:13:21.069
that VA where they can follow people and retirees

01:13:21.069 --> 01:13:26.130
and say, hey, we don't have a 22 or 44 suicides

01:13:26.130 --> 01:13:28.329
a day. We don't know how big the problem is.

01:13:29.609 --> 01:13:32.050
And so that would be a huge start is to actually

01:13:32.050 --> 01:13:35.029
see what the facts are and accept the facts for

01:13:35.029 --> 01:13:37.750
what they are and not pretend like they're not

01:13:37.750 --> 01:13:42.090
happening or not pretend it's not going to happen

01:13:42.090 --> 01:13:45.489
to us because it is going to happen to us. And

01:13:45.489 --> 01:13:47.630
so one of the great things for me about being

01:13:47.630 --> 01:13:51.569
in this space is I entered the fire service thinking

01:13:51.569 --> 01:13:54.510
I was going to go save some people, that whole

01:13:54.510 --> 01:13:57.250
hero thing, not knowing what it's actually about.

01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:02.000
There is no doubt that I will save more people

01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:03.800
through the work that we do at the Siren Project

01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:07.439
than I ever will at a fire or on an EMS call.

01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:11.779
And that makes me really close to the trauma.

01:14:12.500 --> 01:14:15.500
And it gives me a lot of good feelings that I'm

01:14:15.500 --> 01:14:19.039
actually making a difference. I've said the same

01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:21.079
thing, you know, obviously transitioning out

01:14:21.079 --> 01:14:24.430
and I left. Simply because I realized that you

01:14:24.430 --> 01:14:27.069
can't force change from within the castle walls.

01:14:27.210 --> 01:14:29.029
You've got to get outside and knock them down

01:14:29.029 --> 01:14:34.529
with a bat ring ram. But it's that force multiplier

01:14:34.529 --> 01:14:38.289
like the Green Berets talk about. If I run one

01:14:38.289 --> 01:14:41.310
call as a firefighter paramedic, then that's

01:14:41.310 --> 01:14:43.149
amazing. But the moment I leave, another warm

01:14:43.149 --> 01:14:45.789
body is going to be there. What can I do to help?

01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:48.479
the fire service in general, so that, you know,

01:14:48.479 --> 01:14:50.479
hundreds of thousands of people can run calls

01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:53.340
and then, you know, have a healthy career. And,

01:14:53.399 --> 01:14:54.880
you know, I want to get into the siren project,

01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:57.619
but this is why I beat the drum so much with

01:14:57.619 --> 01:15:00.640
the work week is knowing that sleep deprivation

01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:03.460
is behind, you know, suicide, addiction, depression,

01:15:03.819 --> 01:15:06.319
you know, divorces. I mean, when you tell your

01:15:06.319 --> 01:15:07.979
kids, you can't go home, you tell your spouse,

01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:10.140
you can't go home. You don't think that has an

01:15:10.140 --> 01:15:13.989
issue. And knowing that that is one of the big

01:15:13.989 --> 01:15:16.329
pieces as well, all the money that's being lost,

01:15:16.369 --> 01:15:18.210
the millions and millions and millions of dollars

01:15:18.210 --> 01:15:20.750
downstream from the overtime that's forced and

01:15:20.750 --> 01:15:23.970
the lack of retention, you just put in a fourth

01:15:23.970 --> 01:15:28.229
shift. Now you've added another entire recovery

01:15:28.229 --> 01:15:30.470
process. Now people are testing for you again.

01:15:30.529 --> 01:15:34.670
Now the vacancies are filled, which we're seeing

01:15:34.670 --> 01:15:36.710
now. I just saw, I think it was Bloomingfield,

01:15:36.789 --> 01:15:39.710
Illinois. Just had a news piece on how their

01:15:39.710 --> 01:15:41.409
recruitment's gone through the roof now since

01:15:41.409 --> 01:15:44.170
they transitioned to that new schedule. So you

01:15:44.170 --> 01:15:46.149
bring that in. Now you talk about the mental

01:15:46.149 --> 01:15:48.270
health stuff and now you put in a fitness standard

01:15:48.270 --> 01:15:50.869
and now you're just adding layer upon layer upon

01:15:50.869 --> 01:15:54.329
layer. And to your point, now you're saving all

01:15:54.329 --> 01:15:56.630
these first responders lives who then in turn

01:15:56.630 --> 01:15:59.449
are going to go in a full career and save numerous

01:15:59.449 --> 01:16:02.560
lives. And you're going to hopefully. help them

01:16:02.560 --> 01:16:05.760
retain a healthy marriage, a great relationship

01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:07.699
with their children. And then with that domino

01:16:07.699 --> 01:16:10.479
that we're talking about, which is an absolute

01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:14.119
pandemic when it comes to our profession, you

01:16:14.119 --> 01:16:16.340
stop your own dominoes falling on your children

01:16:16.340 --> 01:16:23.479
too. Absolutely. That idea of your children and

01:16:23.479 --> 01:16:26.279
doing it for your children really reframes how

01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:29.199
we're looking at it. I'm not trying to do this

01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:32.039
to... save myself i'm doing this so i don't pass

01:16:32.039 --> 01:16:37.159
along all my crap to my son and you know the

01:16:37.159 --> 01:16:39.720
way we look at it is if if there were programs

01:16:39.720 --> 01:16:45.720
that that really look we were all really good

01:16:45.720 --> 01:16:48.380
about saying follow the science and trust the

01:16:48.380 --> 01:16:52.460
science in 2020 right but we don't do that here

01:16:52.460 --> 01:16:56.079
and that's that's a very frustrating part when

01:16:56.079 --> 01:16:58.939
we look at things like operator syndrome and

01:16:58.939 --> 01:17:02.500
now firefighter syndrome and that fatigue plus

01:17:02.500 --> 01:17:06.560
musculoskeletal injuries plus the transition

01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:09.180
to and from work every week plus working in the

01:17:09.180 --> 01:17:12.640
environment where you live all that stuff we

01:17:12.640 --> 01:17:17.760
call it ptsd but because ptsd is in the dsm but

01:17:17.760 --> 01:17:20.039
it's much more than that it really is a syndrome

01:17:20.039 --> 01:17:23.260
and angela and i look at what we do with the

01:17:23.260 --> 01:17:27.369
siren project is sort of like um We're the surgeon

01:17:27.369 --> 01:17:30.210
at the end of your workers' comp process, right?

01:17:30.310 --> 01:17:33.250
So if you could have had a resiliency program

01:17:33.250 --> 01:17:38.529
early in your career, if you had outlets of talking

01:17:38.529 --> 01:17:42.369
to a therapist throughout your career, you may

01:17:42.369 --> 01:17:45.430
not ever need to come to see us. But we're here

01:17:45.430 --> 01:17:49.210
if you need it. But it's not the easy way. And

01:17:49.210 --> 01:17:51.029
that's what people really need to understand

01:17:51.029 --> 01:17:54.510
is that going to do this medicine is, it's a...

01:17:54.779 --> 01:17:57.699
it's nobody is doing it for fun it is a rough

01:17:57.699 --> 01:18:01.180
journey and and it would be great if we were

01:18:01.180 --> 01:18:03.840
never needed right like i would love in five

01:18:03.840 --> 01:18:05.920
years if the siren project didn't exist because

01:18:05.920 --> 01:18:09.319
you can get this through workers comp and they

01:18:09.319 --> 01:18:14.279
did it the right way and and you know we we didn't

01:18:14.279 --> 01:18:16.020
go have to go out and beat the drum to raise

01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:18.039
funds to go help first responders that would

01:18:18.039 --> 01:18:20.640
be the ultimate for me i don't need to be here

01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:23.800
in five years continuing to do this But it needs

01:18:23.800 --> 01:18:26.079
to be available. And that's where we come in.

01:18:26.739 --> 01:18:29.539
Well, let's talk about that then. So Angela went

01:18:29.539 --> 01:18:31.560
on the journey. You went on the journey. You

01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:33.460
know, you realize that this is something that

01:18:33.460 --> 01:18:35.960
a lot more people need to experience. Talk to

01:18:35.960 --> 01:18:38.279
me about the creation of the Siren Project. And

01:18:38.279 --> 01:18:40.539
then let's talk about what you offer the people

01:18:40.539 --> 01:18:44.840
listening. Sure. So, you know, we go to Mexico

01:18:44.840 --> 01:18:49.840
for the medicine. And, you know, when I got back.

01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:52.619
I just could not believe, like I said, that I

01:18:52.619 --> 01:18:55.100
needed to know somebody at that level to access

01:18:55.100 --> 01:18:58.380
this medicine and that this wasn't something

01:18:58.380 --> 01:19:01.579
being discussed with my therapist. Like my therapist

01:19:01.579 --> 01:19:04.060
never told me like, hey, why don't you go check

01:19:04.060 --> 01:19:06.460
out this? We're getting a lot of success down

01:19:06.460 --> 01:19:09.579
doing psychedelics. Like I had to go find this

01:19:09.579 --> 01:19:11.619
myself. And it was only because I'm curious.

01:19:12.500 --> 01:19:14.840
And a lot of people who are really going through

01:19:14.840 --> 01:19:17.119
it and in the depths of their depression and

01:19:17.119 --> 01:19:21.590
PTSD and. They don't have the ability to go figure

01:19:21.590 --> 01:19:24.750
that out. Nor do they have the ability to figure

01:19:24.750 --> 01:19:27.609
out where to go to do it and who can I trust.

01:19:28.430 --> 01:19:31.489
So there are places out there that are sketchy.

01:19:31.729 --> 01:19:34.029
There's a lot of people I know who went to their

01:19:34.029 --> 01:19:36.430
cousin's best friend's garage down the street

01:19:36.430 --> 01:19:40.510
to do psychedelics. And that is not the right

01:19:40.510 --> 01:19:47.250
setting for this. So we go in tribes. We believe

01:19:47.250 --> 01:19:50.949
healing happens in a community. And so everybody

01:19:50.949 --> 01:19:53.210
who goes down with us is a first responder of

01:19:53.210 --> 01:19:56.090
some sort. So that's a firefighter, police officer,

01:19:56.289 --> 01:20:00.510
dispatch, EMS, search and rescue. But then we

01:20:00.510 --> 01:20:03.590
also send their spouse, if the spouse wants to

01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:05.329
go, to a different retreat. We don't send spouses

01:20:05.329 --> 01:20:10.010
together. Because a lot of us first responders

01:20:10.010 --> 01:20:11.689
are really good at thinking that we're holding

01:20:11.689 --> 01:20:13.670
it together at home and that our spouse doesn't

01:20:13.670 --> 01:20:16.989
really know how bad it is. Trust me, they know

01:20:16.989 --> 01:20:19.159
how bad it is. And they know that they've been

01:20:19.159 --> 01:20:21.220
walking on eggshells around you as well. So the

01:20:21.220 --> 01:20:24.979
healing has to happen within the family. And

01:20:24.979 --> 01:20:26.840
we do it down in Mexico because we think that

01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:29.479
is the right place to do it for a whole host

01:20:29.479 --> 01:20:32.800
of reasons. And making that pilgrimage is a lot

01:20:32.800 --> 01:20:36.439
different than what appears to be the future

01:20:36.439 --> 01:20:38.220
of psychedelics in the United States, where we

01:20:38.220 --> 01:20:40.560
have a clinic next to your Starbucks and you

01:20:40.560 --> 01:20:42.239
go do the medicine and then you go home to your

01:20:42.239 --> 01:20:44.460
kids that day. I don't think that's the right

01:20:44.460 --> 01:20:47.420
way to do it. So we're set up a little bit differently,

01:20:47.560 --> 01:20:52.020
but the results we've seen are phenomenal. And

01:20:52.020 --> 01:20:54.659
I think how you approach the medicine and how

01:20:54.659 --> 01:20:59.300
you work with the medicine are key components

01:20:59.300 --> 01:21:01.539
in making sure we have the success we're looking

01:21:01.539 --> 01:21:04.880
for, which is not two weeks, but it's for two

01:21:04.880 --> 01:21:08.239
years or 20 years. And for most of our respondents,

01:21:08.319 --> 01:21:10.399
this is one of the most significant events of

01:21:10.399 --> 01:21:13.520
their life that ranks close to their child or

01:21:13.520 --> 01:21:18.300
their wedding day. or their parents dying. I

01:21:18.300 --> 01:21:21.220
had a firefighter that I was connected to, and

01:21:21.220 --> 01:21:24.380
he went to a retreat. This one is in the US,

01:21:24.439 --> 01:21:26.619
but it's in a church, it's a sacrament. It's

01:21:26.619 --> 01:21:28.779
very much the same kind of experience that you're

01:21:28.779 --> 01:21:31.140
talking about. It just happened to be domestic.

01:21:32.739 --> 01:21:36.439
And I ended up talking to him after, and he said

01:21:36.439 --> 01:21:38.880
it was a two -day experience. The first day,

01:21:38.979 --> 01:21:41.220
he did the medicine. He's like, this is bullshit.

01:21:41.689 --> 01:21:44.369
And this is a person who had struggled between

01:21:44.369 --> 01:21:48.289
sobriety and, you know, and addiction. And the

01:21:48.289 --> 01:21:50.750
conversation basically was, if this doesn't work,

01:21:50.850 --> 01:21:53.170
then he's pretty much done. Meaning, you know,

01:21:53.189 --> 01:21:55.850
he's going to take his own life. So day one,

01:21:55.989 --> 01:21:58.609
nothing. This is bullshit. This is stupid. It's

01:21:58.609 --> 01:22:00.970
not working. I knew it was all, you know, snake

01:22:00.970 --> 01:22:05.649
oil. And he goes to me, but James, on day two,

01:22:05.789 --> 01:22:10.680
just kind of like you alluded to, he said. including

01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:14.119
the birth of my own children, this was the most

01:22:14.119 --> 01:22:17.979
powerful experience of my life. And he went from,

01:22:17.979 --> 01:22:20.359
you know, alcoholism to the other side again,

01:22:20.460 --> 01:22:23.039
you know, on this, this firm platform again.

01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:25.359
So I've heard those stories over and over again.

01:22:25.380 --> 01:22:27.399
I know that there's three, three people that

01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:29.560
went through the cohort through the podcast to

01:22:29.560 --> 01:22:32.539
at least two of my guests on here that have gone

01:22:32.539 --> 01:22:34.460
through the siren project. And I had the same

01:22:34.460 --> 01:22:36.819
exact phone calls with them. what a powerful

01:22:36.819 --> 01:22:39.739
experience it was so i know people whose lives

01:22:39.739 --> 01:22:42.359
you have saved literally and it's it's so amazing

01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:44.840
to hear before we go to the kind of financial

01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.880
side talk to me about the history of the medicine

01:22:47.880 --> 01:22:53.579
and which ones you use in mexico okay so um i'm

01:22:53.579 --> 01:22:55.560
a i'm a history guy like i mentioned i got my

01:22:55.560 --> 01:22:57.800
master's in history this last year through harvard

01:22:57.800 --> 01:23:02.119
and so i get really intrigued by by how some

01:23:02.119 --> 01:23:06.239
of this stuff really works so um I'm going to

01:23:06.239 --> 01:23:09.399
go back a little bit, but we use psilocybin and

01:23:09.399 --> 01:23:12.800
we use 5 -MeO -DMT, which is the toad. And that's

01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:16.079
our usual ceremony. Every once in a while, we'll

01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:20.720
do an ayahuasca ceremony. But what most people

01:23:20.720 --> 01:23:25.399
will be receiving, again, we don't decide if

01:23:25.399 --> 01:23:27.340
people get the medicine. Our facilitator down

01:23:27.340 --> 01:23:29.739
in Mexico decides whether you will actually get

01:23:29.739 --> 01:23:31.579
the medicine. We just send people on the retreat.

01:23:34.510 --> 01:23:36.449
You know, when you look at psilocybin, if you

01:23:36.449 --> 01:23:39.489
go way back, go back to 1492, Columbus discovers

01:23:39.489 --> 01:23:43.970
North America, maybe, but we'll go with the history

01:23:43.970 --> 01:23:47.649
book version. He goes back and, you know, the

01:23:47.649 --> 01:23:49.949
Pope was sort of the king of the world at the

01:23:49.949 --> 01:23:53.229
time, and he had a lot of power. So Pope Alexander

01:23:53.229 --> 01:23:57.869
creates this papal bull called the Intercatera,

01:23:57.869 --> 01:24:01.390
which basically divides. the rest of the world

01:24:01.390 --> 01:24:03.850
between Portugal and Spain. And so he said, Spain,

01:24:03.890 --> 01:24:06.369
you get everything sort of west of this. Portugal

01:24:06.369 --> 01:24:08.829
is everything east of that. Go forth, conquer,

01:24:08.970 --> 01:24:12.949
spread the religion, and make sure all the savages

01:24:12.949 --> 01:24:16.989
out there become Catholics. So Spain does that.

01:24:17.069 --> 01:24:22.789
And Cortes heads to Mexico and in 1521 conquers

01:24:22.789 --> 01:24:29.039
the Aztec people in Mexico City. And so we have

01:24:29.039 --> 01:24:33.939
this now state where the natives, the Aztecs,

01:24:34.079 --> 01:24:39.880
are forced to convert and their practices go

01:24:39.880 --> 01:24:44.420
away. So we have a couple of friars who write

01:24:44.420 --> 01:24:47.720
about it. This is how we know about it. And Bernardino

01:24:47.720 --> 01:24:50.840
de Salguan was one of them. And he wrote about

01:24:50.840 --> 01:24:55.069
mushroom ceremonies. where they were using local

01:24:55.069 --> 01:25:00.470
mushrooms for medicinal purposes for and during

01:25:00.470 --> 01:25:02.390
these ceremonies people would laugh they would

01:25:02.390 --> 01:25:07.010
cry they would dance and and they decided that

01:25:07.010 --> 01:25:10.069
that was no good because nobody should have a

01:25:10.069 --> 01:25:13.329
direct route to speak to god if they're not going

01:25:13.329 --> 01:25:15.970
through the the priests in the church so it became

01:25:15.970 --> 01:25:20.949
banned shortly after the conquest of Mexico in

01:25:20.949 --> 01:25:25.869
1521. And it went underground. And we don't see

01:25:25.869 --> 01:25:28.890
it reemerge until the 1950s with Maria Sabina,

01:25:28.970 --> 01:25:34.829
who was a Mazatec healer, who let a Westerner

01:25:34.829 --> 01:25:37.329
into one of those. That person's name was Howard

01:25:37.329 --> 01:25:40.649
Wasson. He was an investment banker from New

01:25:40.649 --> 01:25:44.340
York. an amateur sort of mycologist who had read

01:25:44.340 --> 01:25:47.199
the writings of that friar and decided he wanted

01:25:47.199 --> 01:25:49.859
to go look for these magic mushrooms. And he

01:25:49.859 --> 01:25:56.460
did. And he was invited into this ceremony by

01:25:56.460 --> 01:26:00.119
Maria Sabina under some kind of false pretenses

01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:01.859
that he was looking for his son. His son was

01:26:01.859 --> 01:26:04.119
missing. He had needs. And with a promise that

01:26:04.119 --> 01:26:06.479
he would never tell anybody that he did this.

01:26:06.859 --> 01:26:10.000
Well, Howard Watson went back to New York and

01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:13.060
he wrote, A big article in Life magazine that

01:26:13.060 --> 01:26:16.539
was published in, I think, 1957. And from then

01:26:16.539 --> 01:26:18.760
on, it was like a mad rush to get down to the

01:26:18.760 --> 01:26:21.060
Mazatec region to meet Maria Sabina. And you

01:26:21.060 --> 01:26:24.119
had everybody from the Beatles to you name it

01:26:24.119 --> 01:26:27.819
down there trying to get this psychedelic experience.

01:26:29.560 --> 01:26:35.140
And the people of Mexico had something that they

01:26:35.140 --> 01:26:38.880
were protecting for 500 years, essentially stolen

01:26:38.880 --> 01:26:43.020
from them. and given to the world and for me

01:26:43.020 --> 01:26:48.020
that sort of colonizing effect um is something

01:26:48.020 --> 01:26:50.579
that we need to be careful of and so we do we

01:26:50.579 --> 01:26:54.020
do our retreats in mexico because we use healers

01:26:54.020 --> 01:27:00.039
that have that lineage of 500 years plus of holding

01:27:00.039 --> 01:27:04.000
this wisdom and how the medicine works And to

01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:07.439
me, that pilgrimage of it being sort of a pain

01:27:07.439 --> 01:27:11.800
to get down to Mexico, it takes a day. You know,

01:27:11.819 --> 01:27:14.939
it's not like doing it at a resort spot here,

01:27:15.100 --> 01:27:18.760
but it is important to your own healing process

01:27:18.760 --> 01:27:20.500
that you go down there, you make the pilgrimage

01:27:20.500 --> 01:27:26.260
for yourself. And these indigenous locals perform,

01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:29.859
it's very ceremonial, everything from a sweat

01:27:29.859 --> 01:27:35.210
lodge to a flower bath. to hape to the medicine

01:27:35.210 --> 01:27:40.789
itself is all done very respectfully and we use

01:27:40.789 --> 01:27:43.470
the local indigenous people to do so because

01:27:43.470 --> 01:27:46.069
they they deserve it right they've held this

01:27:46.069 --> 01:27:49.229
this medicine for a long long time and i don't

01:27:49.229 --> 01:27:52.949
think it should be this idea that you have the

01:27:52.949 --> 01:27:55.810
right to heal in america to me is a bit of hogwash

01:27:55.810 --> 01:27:59.329
um you don't have the right to anything this

01:27:59.329 --> 01:28:02.869
these medicines were a gift And when you start

01:28:02.869 --> 01:28:05.909
saying you have rights to anything, that changes

01:28:05.909 --> 01:28:11.250
it. We are incredibly blessed that God, the greater

01:28:11.250 --> 01:28:14.310
power, the great spirit has placed this medicine

01:28:14.310 --> 01:28:21.729
here for us to heal. And so I don't want medicine

01:28:21.729 --> 01:28:25.890
served, and I hate to say this, but by a white

01:28:25.890 --> 01:28:28.180
dude who's been to three ceremonies. and now

01:28:28.180 --> 01:28:30.720
the medicine told him he needs to be a healer

01:28:30.720 --> 01:28:34.699
because in that we see a lot of ego now there

01:28:34.699 --> 01:28:36.079
are a lot of great providers here in the united

01:28:36.079 --> 01:28:39.279
states and a lot of people who do it in my opinion

01:28:39.279 --> 01:28:41.819
the right way so i'm not trying to disparage

01:28:41.819 --> 01:28:44.279
them but for us the closer we can do it to the

01:28:44.279 --> 01:28:46.359
source of the medicine the more authentic and

01:28:46.359 --> 01:28:50.800
real it is and so we use a wonderful facilitator

01:28:50.800 --> 01:28:53.619
named dr andrea lucy somebody you should definitely

01:28:53.619 --> 01:28:58.810
get on the show And she is the granddaughter

01:28:58.810 --> 01:29:03.229
of Curanderas, so healers, from Chile. And she

01:29:03.229 --> 01:29:05.670
grew up with her grandparents watching them heal.

01:29:05.829 --> 01:29:08.550
And then when she was 17, she moved to the United

01:29:08.550 --> 01:29:11.289
States and started working on a Marine base.

01:29:11.529 --> 01:29:13.890
And she's one of these American success stories

01:29:13.890 --> 01:29:16.750
where she started learning English, watching

01:29:16.750 --> 01:29:18.989
Beavis and Butthead and around a bunch of Marines,

01:29:19.149 --> 01:29:21.609
working in their gym as like the Zumba instructor.

01:29:22.800 --> 01:29:25.579
all the way up to being one of the lead people

01:29:25.579 --> 01:29:31.600
at NICO as a therapist, as a doctor. And so she

01:29:31.600 --> 01:29:34.539
worked for the Marines for the DoD for 30 years

01:29:34.539 --> 01:29:37.239
before the start of the GWAT, all the way up

01:29:37.239 --> 01:29:40.020
until about 2018, she was working with wounded

01:29:40.020 --> 01:29:44.600
veterans until she had her own sort of discussion

01:29:44.600 --> 01:29:47.020
with her heart that she needed to go serve the

01:29:47.020 --> 01:29:49.779
medicine in Mexico. And so we use her and she

01:29:49.779 --> 01:29:53.300
is fantastic. I can't imagine doing it any other

01:29:53.300 --> 01:29:57.239
way. I was having a conversation with the founder

01:29:57.239 --> 01:30:01.119
of Ambio, the Ibogaine treatment, and Trevor

01:30:01.119 --> 01:30:06.819
Miller. And what was interesting is if we refine

01:30:06.819 --> 01:30:10.659
this community, I would say a lot of the people

01:30:10.659 --> 01:30:12.899
that think that they need the psychedelic treatment

01:30:12.899 --> 01:30:16.390
wouldn't. If we had that, it takes a village.

01:30:16.489 --> 01:30:18.449
For example, in our profession, if we got the

01:30:18.449 --> 01:30:20.770
firefighters the sleep that they need, we've

01:30:20.770 --> 01:30:23.130
got these vacancies filled. So now everyone's

01:30:23.130 --> 01:30:26.010
going home, you know, one day on. I hate that

01:30:26.010 --> 01:30:29.409
term. 24 -72. So they're getting a 72 -hour period

01:30:29.409 --> 01:30:32.189
of recovery. Now there's a fitness standard.

01:30:32.289 --> 01:30:34.229
So now they're working on their health. They're

01:30:34.229 --> 01:30:36.029
getting back down to a healthy weight. They're

01:30:36.029 --> 01:30:39.250
spending quality time with their family. There's

01:30:39.250 --> 01:30:41.310
a large portion that wouldn't even need, as you

01:30:41.310 --> 01:30:43.810
said, to go to something more extreme like Ibogaine

01:30:43.810 --> 01:30:47.069
or, you know, Ayahuasca or et cetera. And then

01:30:47.069 --> 01:30:50.369
that frees up that amount for the people that

01:30:50.369 --> 01:30:52.109
are further down that road, you know, that maybe

01:30:52.109 --> 01:30:53.949
are starting to struggle with addiction or having

01:30:53.949 --> 01:30:56.109
suicide ideation and nothing else is working.

01:30:56.210 --> 01:30:58.489
And I think that's what we need to reserve this

01:30:58.489 --> 01:31:01.729
for. So there's an amazing opportunity for this

01:31:01.729 --> 01:31:05.069
psychedelic conversation, in my opinion, to also,

01:31:05.470 --> 01:31:10.460
you know. begin other healing conversations that

01:31:10.460 --> 01:31:13.180
then that kind of middle group that that's that's

01:31:13.180 --> 01:31:15.399
starting to struggle a little bit but there are

01:31:15.399 --> 01:31:17.920
some holistic elements that will pull them away

01:31:17.920 --> 01:31:19.640
from that and make them you know get them back

01:31:19.640 --> 01:31:22.500
to being healthy again so therefore we're not

01:31:22.500 --> 01:31:25.239
flooding these you know plant medicine areas

01:31:25.239 --> 01:31:27.699
and taking you know all the cambo and all the

01:31:27.699 --> 01:31:29.359
ibogaine away from the people that should be

01:31:29.359 --> 01:31:32.039
having it so i think it's it's uh you know that'll

01:31:32.039 --> 01:31:34.710
be the next next generation now is, you know,

01:31:34.710 --> 01:31:36.630
having that, and I love that analogy that you

01:31:36.630 --> 01:31:39.670
use, the surgeon. That's there for, God forbid,

01:31:39.850 --> 01:31:42.109
that's the only option, but, you know, back injuries,

01:31:42.149 --> 01:31:45.569
I use foundation training to rehab my back movement,

01:31:45.750 --> 01:31:48.010
and it worked. And I, you know, deadlifted 305

01:31:48.010 --> 01:31:50.750
the other day at 51. Not going to win any powerlifting

01:31:50.750 --> 01:31:53.710
competitions, but post, you know, back injury,

01:31:53.829 --> 01:31:56.010
no surgery, that's a testament for movement as

01:31:56.010 --> 01:31:59.239
well. So, but... you know, if nothing worked

01:31:59.239 --> 01:32:01.520
down the road, then yeah, there's a dystectomies

01:32:01.520 --> 01:32:03.239
and, you know, the plates and everything else.

01:32:03.260 --> 01:32:06.420
So I think this next conversation now is very

01:32:06.420 --> 01:32:08.539
important. Not only, as you said, who are the

01:32:08.539 --> 01:32:11.539
people that you would trust to do an actual proper

01:32:11.539 --> 01:32:14.180
journey with a shaman or a guide so that you

01:32:14.180 --> 01:32:15.880
can actually, you know, navigate what you're

01:32:15.880 --> 01:32:19.119
seeing and thinking, but also how then can we.

01:32:19.770 --> 01:32:23.369
use this conversation to to empower other tools

01:32:23.369 --> 01:32:25.789
as well to heal people that really don't need

01:32:25.789 --> 01:32:28.770
to go and do you know a deep deep dive in the

01:32:28.770 --> 01:32:32.609
psychedelic world yeah and i think that there's

01:32:32.609 --> 01:32:35.090
there's one other thing that we we don't really

01:32:35.090 --> 01:32:38.670
talk about that's our retirees and that that

01:32:38.670 --> 01:32:42.689
group of people they almost all think well i'm

01:32:42.689 --> 01:32:44.949
going to feel better as i move away from this

01:32:44.949 --> 01:32:47.329
and the longer i'm away from my job the less

01:32:47.880 --> 01:32:50.619
the less i'll be bothered by those calls and

01:32:50.619 --> 01:32:53.859
almost to a person it seems to get worse because

01:32:53.859 --> 01:32:57.079
not only are they the thoughts still there but

01:32:57.079 --> 01:32:59.560
you've lost your community where maybe you can

01:32:59.560 --> 01:33:01.779
talk about it or laugh about it or the dark humor

01:33:01.779 --> 01:33:04.640
and and a little bit of your identity has been

01:33:04.640 --> 01:33:09.279
gone so i mean there is a problem right now that

01:33:09.279 --> 01:33:12.020
right now the medicines we use are schedule one

01:33:12.020 --> 01:33:15.899
drugs okay so that stops a lot of people from

01:33:15.899 --> 01:33:21.010
seeking them It's another reason why we do it

01:33:21.010 --> 01:33:23.170
in Mexico because then people have not broken

01:33:23.170 --> 01:33:26.630
United States law because they're in Mexico.

01:33:26.829 --> 01:33:31.189
But wouldn't it be a gift to send our retirees

01:33:31.189 --> 01:33:34.310
off into the next period of their life, their

01:33:34.310 --> 01:33:38.310
next transition, by giving them the option to

01:33:38.310 --> 01:33:41.470
seek a healing retreat like what we offer or

01:33:41.470 --> 01:33:44.210
what other people offer and to leave that baggage

01:33:44.210 --> 01:33:47.220
as they transition? Personally, I don't care

01:33:47.220 --> 01:33:50.039
if I get a stupid ax on a plaque when I retire.

01:33:50.180 --> 01:33:53.319
I'd rather take that money and use it to something

01:33:53.319 --> 01:33:55.479
that's going to make me a better person, better

01:33:55.479 --> 01:33:59.819
for my family, happier, and not carrying this

01:33:59.819 --> 01:34:03.100
weight around into the next 10, 20 years of my

01:34:03.100 --> 01:34:06.180
retirement. Well, kind of as you were talking

01:34:06.180 --> 01:34:08.020
about when you were on Wall Street and feeling

01:34:08.020 --> 01:34:11.260
that need, that purpose, that's what they're

01:34:11.260 --> 01:34:13.100
losing when they transition out. They've lost

01:34:13.100 --> 01:34:15.420
that. identity lost that tribe but they've also

01:34:15.420 --> 01:34:18.100
lost and i mean we've all had it that drive home

01:34:18.100 --> 01:34:20.680
from a shift where you're like i i made a difference

01:34:20.680 --> 01:34:23.079
today like you know i can i can sleep well at

01:34:23.079 --> 01:34:26.399
night but also you know we all know it by the

01:34:26.399 --> 01:34:28.239
time they get to the end of their career a lot

01:34:28.239 --> 01:34:31.119
of our you know veterans are pretty jaded as

01:34:31.119 --> 01:34:33.409
well And so you've lost that empathy. You've

01:34:33.409 --> 01:34:36.090
lost that compassion. So what a beautiful reset

01:34:36.090 --> 01:34:38.350
that would be. And not to mention, and I'd be

01:34:38.350 --> 01:34:41.890
curious to get your kind of perspective on this,

01:34:41.970 --> 01:34:45.229
a lot of people, I think it's the 5MEO specifically,

01:34:45.590 --> 01:34:49.369
talk about how they felt like they were connected

01:34:49.369 --> 01:34:51.569
to the universe and how all of a sudden, and

01:34:51.569 --> 01:34:53.569
you kind of touched on it, how death wasn't their

01:34:53.569 --> 01:34:56.649
own death. wasn't scary to them anymore. And

01:34:56.649 --> 01:34:57.949
I think that would be important. You've just

01:34:57.949 --> 01:35:00.850
transitioned out. You're 55, 60, 65, whatever

01:35:00.850 --> 01:35:04.970
you are. You're past the halfway point now. I

01:35:04.970 --> 01:35:06.829
think the halfway is kind of a cushion for a

01:35:06.829 --> 01:35:09.609
lot of us when we're in our 20s or 30s. We should

01:35:09.609 --> 01:35:14.729
be fine. But now I'm 51. My grandma was 105 almost.

01:35:15.689 --> 01:35:18.890
I could argue, maybe, maybe still, but we're

01:35:18.890 --> 01:35:21.489
kind of looking down the other end now. So what

01:35:21.489 --> 01:35:23.869
another beautiful gift would be, you know, to

01:35:23.869 --> 01:35:27.229
reframe what retirement looks like, because it's

01:35:27.229 --> 01:35:29.850
not, you know, just playing golf every day, waiting

01:35:29.850 --> 01:35:31.970
to die. You've got so much more to give, but

01:35:31.970 --> 01:35:33.970
if you're exhausted and you're burnt out and

01:35:33.970 --> 01:35:36.970
you, you know, your head is full of trauma to

01:35:36.970 --> 01:35:40.369
be able to reset that somewhat to, to turn the

01:35:40.369 --> 01:35:42.770
page for retirement. I agree with you a hundred

01:35:42.770 --> 01:35:45.159
percent. It would be a beautiful gift. Yeah,

01:35:45.180 --> 01:35:46.979
and not to mention, you know, they carry a lot

01:35:46.979 --> 01:35:48.960
of their coping mechanisms right into retirement,

01:35:49.140 --> 01:35:51.939
whether that's the drinking or the weed or the,

01:35:51.979 --> 01:35:57.420
you know, being able to just sort of detach and

01:35:57.420 --> 01:36:02.779
not really be present. So, you know, having people

01:36:02.779 --> 01:36:05.039
go down there gives them the gift of presence

01:36:05.039 --> 01:36:08.100
once again, so that they can actually be at home

01:36:08.100 --> 01:36:11.579
and be with their family and not off in the world,

01:36:11.640 --> 01:36:14.819
you know, right? I think it's a beautiful gift

01:36:14.819 --> 01:36:19.859
that we owe them, but they have to also be ready

01:36:19.859 --> 01:36:23.479
to accept it. Because you kind of alluded to

01:36:23.479 --> 01:36:25.520
what I talked about a lot with the retirees and

01:36:25.520 --> 01:36:28.680
the VA. This is what really gets me about the

01:36:28.680 --> 01:36:31.279
statistics. And I did a presentation for St.

01:36:31.300 --> 01:36:33.199
John's County a while ago, trying to help them

01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:37.260
push the 24 -72. And again, back to the trust

01:36:37.260 --> 01:36:39.260
of science, where we were told that during COVID,

01:36:39.340 --> 01:36:41.619
most of us in the medical profession know. you

01:36:41.619 --> 01:36:44.760
know, the efficacy of masks and, you know, microorganism

01:36:44.760 --> 01:36:46.359
movement. There's a lot of things that we were

01:36:46.359 --> 01:36:48.199
like, wait a second, this is not what we were

01:36:48.199 --> 01:36:51.220
taught. What are you talking about? But with

01:36:51.220 --> 01:36:52.979
the numbers, I was like, all right, well, let

01:36:52.979 --> 01:36:56.159
me pull up the numbers of suicides. And it was

01:36:56.159 --> 01:36:58.760
like, I think it was 74 in the whole of the US.

01:36:59.460 --> 01:37:02.000
I'm pretty sure I know of that many in the state

01:37:02.000 --> 01:37:04.399
of Florida, but these are the official numbers.

01:37:04.859 --> 01:37:06.739
And then, and I said, you know, which group are

01:37:06.739 --> 01:37:10.340
we not even counting? Retirees. So, you know,

01:37:10.340 --> 01:37:13.659
the active duty of what, a 10th, maybe a 20th

01:37:13.659 --> 01:37:16.619
of how many retirees we have around. But we do

01:37:16.619 --> 01:37:19.279
not count any of those premature deaths. So the

01:37:19.279 --> 01:37:21.539
cancers, the heart diseases, you know, all the

01:37:21.539 --> 01:37:25.079
things that the addictions, the alcoholism. So

01:37:25.079 --> 01:37:29.220
those stats, you know, do a huge disservice about

01:37:29.220 --> 01:37:32.300
the actual magnitude of the problem. But unlike

01:37:32.300 --> 01:37:34.840
the military, where at least the VA is trying

01:37:34.840 --> 01:37:37.859
to take care of people after service. The moment

01:37:37.859 --> 01:37:41.060
that bay door closes behind us, that's it. A

01:37:41.060 --> 01:37:43.079
year of Cobra and then go fuck yourself, basically.

01:37:43.359 --> 01:37:45.539
I mean, let's be honest. And you've got a career's

01:37:45.539 --> 01:37:48.479
worth of physical, mental trauma and no coping

01:37:48.479 --> 01:37:52.180
mechanisms on the back end. And you're three

01:37:52.180 --> 01:37:55.439
times more likely to die by suicide than anything

01:37:55.439 --> 01:37:58.779
on the job, right? And when you think back to

01:37:58.779 --> 01:38:01.100
your training, how many times did you throw a

01:38:01.100 --> 01:38:03.680
ladder against the building in training? A couple

01:38:03.680 --> 01:38:06.739
thousand, probably? How many times did you do

01:38:06.739 --> 01:38:10.500
it for real on a fire? Maybe five or 10 over

01:38:10.500 --> 01:38:13.220
the course of your career. Yet we practice and

01:38:13.220 --> 01:38:15.899
practice and practice that skill. And there is

01:38:15.899 --> 01:38:20.300
zero being spent on mental health right now or

01:38:20.300 --> 01:38:24.760
resiliency or, Hey, we know this is going to

01:38:24.760 --> 01:38:27.020
happen in your career. You're you're likely to

01:38:27.020 --> 01:38:28.760
get married and you're likely to get divorced.

01:38:29.020 --> 01:38:32.420
We don't track any of those stats. And when people

01:38:32.420 --> 01:38:36.069
do kill themselves, the family or the department

01:38:36.069 --> 01:38:40.949
has such shame around it that it's Stephen died

01:38:40.949 --> 01:38:45.109
suddenly off duty. Unexpectedly. Unexpectedly,

01:38:45.109 --> 01:38:49.170
right, at home. And so I read those things and

01:38:49.170 --> 01:38:51.569
I'm immediately like, well, was it a cardiac

01:38:51.569 --> 01:38:54.569
or was it a suicide? Or a overdose. That's the

01:38:54.569 --> 01:39:01.029
other Stephen. Yep. And so we know that suicides

01:39:01.029 --> 01:39:04.739
are increasing, not decreasing. So despite the

01:39:04.739 --> 01:39:07.399
fact that we are a little bit more open, that

01:39:07.399 --> 01:39:10.800
we are talking about it, that we do have EAP

01:39:10.800 --> 01:39:15.699
programs, that this generation that's coming

01:39:15.699 --> 01:39:17.500
to the fire service has grown up with therapy,

01:39:17.720 --> 01:39:22.079
the suicide rate is still increasing. And to

01:39:22.079 --> 01:39:28.779
me, it is immoral to not give people options

01:39:28.779 --> 01:39:31.380
that will save their life, even if it means these

01:39:31.380 --> 01:39:35.489
medicines. are on some lists with the FDA, which

01:39:35.489 --> 01:39:38.270
are on that list with the FDA for entirely immoral

01:39:38.270 --> 01:39:41.850
reasons in the first place. So I can't stand

01:39:41.850 --> 01:39:46.909
by and watch people suffer when I know this exists.

01:39:47.170 --> 01:39:49.569
And that's really what it comes down to. Well,

01:39:49.609 --> 01:39:51.109
I've highlighted this with many people, including

01:39:51.109 --> 01:39:54.949
Trevor. The FDA approved OxyContin, which the

01:39:54.949 --> 01:39:57.390
ripple effects of that kill 100 ,000 Americans

01:39:57.390 --> 01:39:59.390
every year. And they approve that. And we're

01:39:59.390 --> 01:40:01.140
okay with that. And the guy that approved that

01:40:01.140 --> 01:40:03.960
then went and worked for Purdue Pharma. But they

01:40:03.960 --> 01:40:08.300
refused to acknowledge the MDMA -led psychotherapy

01:40:08.300 --> 01:40:11.739
that was proposed last year. So when we talk

01:40:11.739 --> 01:40:13.859
about FDA approval, we have to take that with

01:40:13.859 --> 01:40:17.600
a huge bucket of salt in itself. Absolutely.

01:40:17.680 --> 01:40:22.479
And there's no money in healing, right? And RFK

01:40:22.479 --> 01:40:24.840
talked about that in the context of addiction,

01:40:25.020 --> 01:40:29.359
that there's no money. and getting people unaddicted

01:40:29.359 --> 01:40:33.840
or off off the prescription drugs alcohol it's

01:40:33.840 --> 01:40:38.800
all in fee for service and so until we actually

01:40:38.800 --> 01:40:44.220
wanted to get people healthy this option because

01:40:44.220 --> 01:40:47.579
for most people it's one or two one or two journeys

01:40:47.579 --> 01:40:51.500
and they're at a good place in their life rather

01:40:51.500 --> 01:40:56.420
than daily medication prescriptions I think that

01:40:56.420 --> 01:40:58.319
we're going to be sort of stuck in this rut of

01:40:58.319 --> 01:41:00.319
increasing suicide and not really understanding

01:41:00.319 --> 01:41:03.699
why. Well, I think the other thing that's glaring

01:41:03.699 --> 01:41:06.199
is every department around here is talking about

01:41:06.199 --> 01:41:08.739
mandatory overtime and 56 -hour work weeks, if

01:41:08.739 --> 01:41:12.159
not 80, 120. And that's the other part of the

01:41:12.159 --> 01:41:14.840
puzzle. We've been talking more about mental

01:41:14.840 --> 01:41:16.779
health, but yet we're losing more people. The

01:41:16.779 --> 01:41:19.220
cancer, we're deconing, we have climate events,

01:41:19.279 --> 01:41:22.000
and we're losing more people to cancer. But what's

01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:23.680
the one fucking thing that you're not talking

01:41:23.680 --> 01:41:27.500
about that we know is carcinogenic, is directly

01:41:27.500 --> 01:41:30.119
related to mental ill health, as I've pointed

01:41:30.119 --> 01:41:33.000
out many times? Sleep deprivation is used for

01:41:33.000 --> 01:41:35.199
special forces selection, interrogation, and

01:41:35.199 --> 01:41:37.710
torture. And we're like... you know a surprise

01:41:37.710 --> 01:41:40.229
when when anyone suggests that maybe it's connected

01:41:40.229 --> 01:41:44.770
to a you know suicide epidemic so when we actually

01:41:44.770 --> 01:41:47.210
look at that and say all right the way we're

01:41:47.210 --> 01:41:49.949
doing it isn't working this is we have an amazing

01:41:49.949 --> 01:41:52.630
longitudinal study of how not to work a firefighter

01:41:52.630 --> 01:41:55.170
so let's do something different so using the

01:41:55.170 --> 01:41:57.289
tools that we've discussed today with psychedelics

01:41:57.289 --> 01:41:59.470
and you know psychotherapy at the front door

01:41:59.470 --> 01:42:03.220
but also a healthy work week Would you want the

01:42:03.220 --> 01:42:05.340
pilot of your plane working eight hours a week

01:42:05.340 --> 01:42:07.420
and not sleeping four of the days? Of course

01:42:07.420 --> 01:42:10.060
not. Why are we any different? And so having

01:42:10.060 --> 01:42:12.199
that conversation of Florida is leading the way

01:42:12.199 --> 01:42:14.539
because now we've got departments that are going

01:42:14.539 --> 01:42:17.260
to it. They just rescheduled, but I got the Gainesville

01:42:17.260 --> 01:42:19.779
guys coming on that have stats after a year or

01:42:19.779 --> 01:42:22.300
so now of all the improvements and the financial

01:42:22.300 --> 01:42:25.859
changes that they've seen. That is the herd of

01:42:25.859 --> 01:42:27.989
elephants, as I always say, in the room. that

01:42:27.989 --> 01:42:29.970
we have to address as well. If we know there

01:42:29.970 --> 01:42:32.930
are direct correlations between sleep deprivation

01:42:32.930 --> 01:42:36.170
and physical and mental ill health, why the fuck,

01:42:36.170 --> 01:42:38.409
and this really pisses me off, for example, is

01:42:38.409 --> 01:42:42.010
IAFF not talking about this when their leadership

01:42:42.010 --> 01:42:45.170
is from Boston that works 42 hours a week, 24

01:42:45.170 --> 01:42:48.369
-72? You know, this is the problem. All the people

01:42:48.369 --> 01:42:50.109
that are in the positions that could truly make

01:42:50.109 --> 01:42:52.340
a difference. They've got their fucking heads

01:42:52.340 --> 01:42:54.600
in the sand, and then they're shrugging their

01:42:54.600 --> 01:42:56.720
shoulders while we're all taking our own lives

01:42:56.720 --> 01:42:59.539
and dying of overdoses, et cetera. We have to

01:42:59.539 --> 01:43:01.739
hit every single pillar of this if we're going

01:43:01.739 --> 01:43:05.760
to make a difference. Yeah, and I'm on our union

01:43:05.760 --> 01:43:10.899
e -board, and I've been socializing the idea

01:43:10.899 --> 01:43:14.180
of a 24 -72 as we look at our next negotiation,

01:43:14.239 --> 01:43:16.840
and it's a tough one to get traction because...

01:43:19.070 --> 01:43:22.649
15 years ago, people fought so hard for the 4896

01:43:22.649 --> 01:43:26.390
and they think it's the greatest schedule and

01:43:26.390 --> 01:43:28.250
they all bought homes that are four hours away.

01:43:28.390 --> 01:43:30.930
And now this means that maybe they have to drive

01:43:30.930 --> 01:43:33.430
in a little bit more. But really what's going

01:43:33.430 --> 01:43:36.729
to drive it is, in my opinion, the cities need

01:43:36.729 --> 01:43:42.170
to see that it saves them money. And I want to

01:43:42.170 --> 01:43:44.289
believe that the cities in our administration

01:43:44.289 --> 01:43:49.220
care about firefighters. But they also have another

01:43:49.220 --> 01:43:51.920
job to do, and that's they care about the bottom

01:43:51.920 --> 01:43:54.119
line and what it's going to cost. They do care

01:43:54.119 --> 01:43:57.340
about you at a price. But we also have seen enough

01:43:57.340 --> 01:44:00.300
to know that if I don't come to work tomorrow,

01:44:00.520 --> 01:44:02.859
there'll be somebody there in my spot. And that's

01:44:02.859 --> 01:44:05.819
OK. And I probably won't hear from anybody about

01:44:05.819 --> 01:44:11.479
it. So I would love to see what financial data

01:44:11.479 --> 01:44:16.140
can be gleaned by moving towards. the 24 -72

01:44:16.140 --> 01:44:20.140
schedule because I think that is the answer that

01:44:20.140 --> 01:44:23.279
will probably make the most change for the physical

01:44:23.279 --> 01:44:26.859
and mental health of firefighters. How competitive

01:44:26.859 --> 01:44:29.659
was it when you wanted to become a firefighter?

01:44:31.340 --> 01:44:34.659
I gave a speech after my academy. I was asked

01:44:34.659 --> 01:44:37.880
to do that. At the time, it was more challenging

01:44:37.880 --> 01:44:40.239
to become a firefighter than to be accepted to

01:44:40.239 --> 01:44:44.170
Harvard. Harvard had a 3 % acceptance rate. And

01:44:44.170 --> 01:44:46.350
firefighting had about a 1 % acceptance rate

01:44:46.350 --> 01:44:48.750
in terms of number of applications they got to

01:44:48.750 --> 01:44:51.409
actually getting on the job. That's what I saw

01:44:51.409 --> 01:44:53.850
in Anaheim. Basically, we were after probation

01:44:53.850 --> 01:44:55.729
because they got rid of about a quarter of the

01:44:55.729 --> 01:44:57.649
class through attrition because the bar was set

01:44:57.649 --> 01:44:59.689
high and there was no lowering of standards.

01:44:59.869 --> 01:45:03.170
It was basically 1 % of the people that did the

01:45:03.170 --> 01:45:05.869
written. And this is what I always try and go

01:45:05.869 --> 01:45:09.439
back to. You know, I mean, that was 20, just

01:45:09.439 --> 01:45:11.539
over 20 years ago, but up until it seems about

01:45:11.539 --> 01:45:13.779
10 years ago, it was still very competitive because

01:45:13.779 --> 01:45:16.739
the post 9 -11, you know, boom, obviously was,

01:45:16.800 --> 01:45:20.920
was, was even more interest, but the rising tide

01:45:20.920 --> 01:45:22.899
lifts or shifts. I'll keep, keep hitting this

01:45:22.899 --> 01:45:26.520
again. When we just create an environment that

01:45:26.520 --> 01:45:28.760
shows these young people who would be phenomenal

01:45:28.760 --> 01:45:31.220
firefighters and who are leaning into the trades,

01:45:31.319 --> 01:45:33.960
we've seen it because they realize that college

01:45:33.960 --> 01:45:36.979
is also a scam unless you have to go, you know,

01:45:36.979 --> 01:45:40.239
doctor, lawyer, et cetera. They want to do a

01:45:40.239 --> 01:45:42.579
job like this, but they are physically and emotionally

01:45:42.579 --> 01:45:45.569
intelligent enough to know. Okay, well, this

01:45:45.569 --> 01:45:47.409
is not a healthy working environment. Like you

01:45:47.409 --> 01:45:49.369
said, Google, is it healthy to be a firefighter?

01:45:49.369 --> 01:45:52.090
It'll tell you exactly what it is. Google, what's

01:45:52.090 --> 01:45:54.189
the healthy work week, by the way? It says 2472

01:45:54.189 --> 01:45:58.409
now, which is amazing to see. We fix the issues

01:45:58.409 --> 01:46:00.510
that are broken. We forge performance with a

01:46:00.510 --> 01:46:03.189
healthy work week. The vacancies of, you know,

01:46:03.189 --> 01:46:05.750
all the vacant spots are filled. Now you've got

01:46:05.750 --> 01:46:07.529
a profession where people will line up around

01:46:07.529 --> 01:46:09.750
the building to test for again. And now you're

01:46:09.750 --> 01:46:13.189
taking that top one, 10, you know, 15 % wherever

01:46:13.189 --> 01:46:15.909
you are. So now you're getting the best of the

01:46:15.909 --> 01:46:17.869
best and people that are bending over backwards

01:46:17.869 --> 01:46:21.949
to do this job. So it's not, you know, oh, imagine

01:46:21.949 --> 01:46:24.739
one day like. You know where you were and you

01:46:24.739 --> 01:46:28.340
know where you are now. So your 4896 isn't fucking

01:46:28.340 --> 01:46:31.779
working. Your 2448 isn't working. Your Kelly

01:46:31.779 --> 01:46:34.720
schedule isn't working. But these ones in the

01:46:34.720 --> 01:46:36.220
Northeast, you know, they've been doing it for

01:46:36.220 --> 01:46:39.119
a long time. I had one of the chiefs of Washington

01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:41.520
on. They don't have a recruitment crisis. They

01:46:41.520 --> 01:46:44.579
have lists that are huge. So this is the thing.

01:46:44.600 --> 01:46:46.359
It's not the only thing, but you're layering

01:46:46.359 --> 01:46:49.960
it. There are all these other schedules. Why

01:46:49.960 --> 01:46:52.800
do your family not deserve to have you home after

01:46:52.800 --> 01:46:55.140
40 hours when the people making decisions that

01:46:55.140 --> 01:46:57.840
cause this crisis in the first place go home

01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:02.680
after 40 hours? Yeah, and it's we've had our

01:47:02.680 --> 01:47:04.840
challenges that were just sort of coming out

01:47:04.840 --> 01:47:08.060
of the last few years. And we solve those staffing

01:47:08.060 --> 01:47:12.979
problems by doing a lot of lateral hires. And

01:47:12.979 --> 01:47:16.359
so. Well, that's great. And I love the young

01:47:16.359 --> 01:47:18.500
people in our department. They bring energy and

01:47:18.500 --> 01:47:22.439
compassion, but the younger generation is different.

01:47:22.600 --> 01:47:26.899
They don't want to work all the time. They want

01:47:26.899 --> 01:47:30.319
to work what the little trifle that they received

01:47:30.319 --> 01:47:32.479
when they signed up says you're going to work

01:47:32.479 --> 01:47:35.159
48 hours a week and then be home for four days.

01:47:35.720 --> 01:47:37.760
They don't want to be there for three on three

01:47:37.760 --> 01:47:40.819
off. And their priorities are in a much healthier

01:47:40.819 --> 01:47:44.439
place than sort of the older generation. in terms

01:47:44.439 --> 01:47:47.180
of chasing the dollar. And the other thing we

01:47:47.180 --> 01:47:52.000
see is that we get paid so well these days that

01:47:52.000 --> 01:47:54.899
it's easier for me to go work an overtime shift

01:47:54.899 --> 01:47:58.140
and hire somebody to go build the little addition

01:47:58.140 --> 01:48:00.880
to my house or the shed outside than to go build

01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:05.239
it myself. And so what we lost when we have this

01:48:05.239 --> 01:48:08.039
generation that doesn't have the side hustle

01:48:08.039 --> 01:48:12.750
or the trade is... Working in a trade is a form

01:48:12.750 --> 01:48:14.810
of mindfulness when you are building something.

01:48:15.310 --> 01:48:18.670
And so on their off days, they don't have that

01:48:18.670 --> 01:48:21.630
thing that they do. They'd rather just go work

01:48:21.630 --> 01:48:24.210
another day than actually go build the thing

01:48:24.210 --> 01:48:26.409
that would actually give them some peace. So

01:48:26.409 --> 01:48:30.649
I love that our younger people are bringing that

01:48:30.649 --> 01:48:35.029
energy to the profession. I love that they're

01:48:35.029 --> 01:48:39.460
pushing for fair. ways to decide who gets mandatory

01:48:39.460 --> 01:48:43.899
um but i think it it's going to cause additional

01:48:43.899 --> 01:48:46.000
problems when you just don't have people who

01:48:46.000 --> 01:48:49.640
are dying for those overtime shifts so it's a

01:48:49.640 --> 01:48:52.199
really interesting time yeah well this is this

01:48:52.199 --> 01:48:55.119
is again what's i've said this many times on

01:48:55.119 --> 01:48:56.920
here i have chiefs telling me well if you give

01:48:56.920 --> 01:48:59.119
them more time off they'll just work more which

01:48:59.119 --> 01:49:02.220
again is an incredibly narcissistic and arrogant

01:49:02.220 --> 01:49:04.279
thing to say about someone on their days off

01:49:04.279 --> 01:49:08.739
but If you have a healthy schedule and you fill

01:49:08.739 --> 01:49:10.619
all the spots, well, the overtime doesn't go

01:49:10.619 --> 01:49:13.100
away, but it becomes minimal again. So now you've

01:49:13.100 --> 01:49:15.979
got a very gentle rotation of people volunteering

01:49:15.979 --> 01:49:18.380
to do one overtime in a while. And you could

01:49:18.380 --> 01:49:22.680
do 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off in that cycle.

01:49:23.020 --> 01:49:25.619
So you still don't do a 48, even with an overtime.

01:49:26.279 --> 01:49:30.500
But exactly like you said, there's nothing wrong

01:49:30.500 --> 01:49:32.920
with working on your days off. Everyone has something

01:49:32.920 --> 01:49:35.100
they also love to do. You could be a personal

01:49:35.100 --> 01:49:37.039
trainer. You could be landscaper. You could be

01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:39.800
installing cabinets, a real estate agent, whatever

01:49:39.800 --> 01:49:42.939
it is. That's a separate identity, separate trade,

01:49:43.060 --> 01:49:45.699
separate income. God forbid there's some issue

01:49:45.699 --> 01:49:48.300
with your fire service job. So there's nothing

01:49:48.300 --> 01:49:50.779
wrong with that as long as you're not doing an

01:49:50.779 --> 01:49:53.279
overnight job in the ER, second fire department.

01:49:53.579 --> 01:49:56.960
I am not opposed to having that in writing. You

01:49:56.960 --> 01:49:59.420
cannot work overnight. That's the only stipulation.

01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:01.899
So now, you know, yeah, you're getting away,

01:50:02.039 --> 01:50:03.979
you're decompressing, you're learning another

01:50:03.979 --> 01:50:06.500
skill, you're being an innovator, an entrepreneur.

01:50:06.840 --> 01:50:09.859
Those are all fantastic things. And so we get

01:50:09.859 --> 01:50:12.600
away from that reliance on overtime in the first

01:50:12.600 --> 01:50:15.380
place, because if it's not there to work, then

01:50:15.380 --> 01:50:17.960
it just becomes a non -issue then. And, you know,

01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:20.079
you go to a grocery store or a bank and they

01:50:20.079 --> 01:50:22.380
told you outside of the city, you gave us that

01:50:22.380 --> 01:50:24.800
example, but a regular bank, oh, you know, we're

01:50:24.800 --> 01:50:26.520
understaffed who needs you to work Saturday and

01:50:26.520 --> 01:50:28.640
Sunday as well. How many bank clerks would you

01:50:28.640 --> 01:50:31.489
have? Like none. So why is it any different in

01:50:31.489 --> 01:50:34.510
our profession? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think

01:50:34.510 --> 01:50:36.350
that that is the challenge for administrators

01:50:36.350 --> 01:50:40.449
now to figure this one out. And going back to

01:50:40.449 --> 01:50:42.609
the financial part, I think that what will drive

01:50:42.609 --> 01:50:45.689
it is when they realize that a 24 72 schedule

01:50:45.689 --> 01:50:50.569
is financially smarter for everybody. And it's

01:50:50.569 --> 01:50:52.970
truly is a win, win, win. It's not firefighters

01:50:52.970 --> 01:50:56.829
being lazy that they will come out ahead as well.

01:50:57.210 --> 01:50:59.310
Yeah. A hundred percent. They will. And then,

01:50:59.329 --> 01:51:01.170
you know, you've got extra money then for gyms

01:51:01.170 --> 01:51:03.390
and mental health programs and, you know, all

01:51:03.390 --> 01:51:06.449
the other things. I just had one of the doctors

01:51:06.449 --> 01:51:09.829
from Pranuvo. They do a full body MRI. Yep. We

01:51:09.829 --> 01:51:12.649
do that. You do? Yeah. I was amazed. I have one

01:51:12.649 --> 01:51:14.710
done myself and I was like, why are we, you know,

01:51:14.710 --> 01:51:17.229
obviously technology has evolved, but this should

01:51:17.229 --> 01:51:19.930
be a must have for every department because if

01:51:19.930 --> 01:51:22.250
you get that done every, you know, year, two

01:51:22.250 --> 01:51:24.789
years, whatever it ends up being. You have a

01:51:24.789 --> 01:51:27.109
baseline and you have trending now. So you can

01:51:27.109 --> 01:51:29.369
see if something becomes worrying, whether it's

01:51:29.369 --> 01:51:31.350
your visceral fat, whether it's a mass somewhere,

01:51:31.529 --> 01:51:34.630
a thinning of an artery. What an incredibly powerful

01:51:34.630 --> 01:51:37.369
tool. And you could free up funds for that by

01:51:37.369 --> 01:51:40.270
creating this healthy work week that's not wasting

01:51:40.270 --> 01:51:43.229
all this money downstream. Yeah, there's no doubt

01:51:43.229 --> 01:51:46.930
that a test like ProNovo and also testosterone

01:51:46.930 --> 01:51:49.489
testing from day one entering the academy is

01:51:49.489 --> 01:51:53.229
incredibly important so that you can tie that.

01:51:53.930 --> 01:51:57.850
uh inevitable loss of testosterone to the actual

01:51:57.850 --> 01:52:00.590
job rather than saying well i guess you're you're

01:52:00.590 --> 01:52:02.529
just one of the unlucky few whose testosterone

01:52:02.529 --> 01:52:06.750
is now gone um which brings us to the whole other

01:52:06.750 --> 01:52:10.810
thing like we are we are great with the medicine

01:52:10.810 --> 01:52:14.909
at healing your mental space but there's some

01:52:14.909 --> 01:52:17.149
healing to the vessel that also needs to be done

01:52:17.149 --> 01:52:21.800
and so when we talk about um you need to go see

01:52:21.800 --> 01:52:24.439
a naturopath get your testosterone check get

01:52:24.439 --> 01:52:27.180
your cortisol check that's all part of healing

01:52:27.180 --> 01:52:30.359
the whole body because we can do everything in

01:52:30.359 --> 01:52:32.340
the world with your mind but if your body doesn't

01:52:32.340 --> 01:52:35.680
support it because you're constantly low t or

01:52:35.680 --> 01:52:40.159
whatever else it's hard to stay it's hard to

01:52:40.159 --> 01:52:43.279
keep those gains yeah which again i think one

01:52:43.279 --> 01:52:45.039
of the other conversations you know your employer

01:52:45.039 --> 01:52:47.000
creates a healthy work weight for you and in

01:52:47.000 --> 01:52:49.590
return you put in a fitness standard A punitive

01:52:49.590 --> 01:52:52.510
fitness standard. And again, having an on -ramp,

01:52:52.550 --> 01:52:54.710
if you just put it in, you're not firing everyone

01:52:54.710 --> 01:52:57.350
tomorrow, but whatever it is, a year and a half,

01:52:57.390 --> 01:52:59.930
two years to get to where you need to be. We

01:52:59.930 --> 01:53:03.369
take you offline if need be, but that is only

01:53:03.369 --> 01:53:05.369
going to, it's a win -win as well. You forge

01:53:05.369 --> 01:53:07.609
performance on the fire ground, you forge longevity

01:53:07.609 --> 01:53:10.689
for the individual. And from your employer's

01:53:10.689 --> 01:53:12.729
point of view, you're just going to get fat and

01:53:12.729 --> 01:53:16.289
sick less and hurt less. So that's a win -win

01:53:16.289 --> 01:53:18.520
-win. And again, that... Don't get me wrong.

01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:20.319
At the moment, with the way everyone's worked,

01:53:20.420 --> 01:53:22.439
it's hard to put in that standard. But the fact

01:53:22.439 --> 01:53:24.640
that historically unions have actually opposed

01:53:24.640 --> 01:53:27.920
fitness standards in a profession where we need

01:53:27.920 --> 01:53:30.680
to be incredibly strong and incredibly fit, I

01:53:30.680 --> 01:53:33.380
mean, honestly, it nauseates me. So that's another

01:53:33.380 --> 01:53:36.340
mistake that we've got to undo. Not to lose jobs,

01:53:36.399 --> 01:53:38.279
because anyone who actually wants to do the job

01:53:38.279 --> 01:53:40.560
will get back to where they need to be, and their

01:53:40.560 --> 01:53:43.539
family will thank them for it. But it will also

01:53:43.539 --> 01:53:45.880
filter out the people that are there that have

01:53:45.880 --> 01:53:48.800
no interest whatsoever of actually being in shape

01:53:48.800 --> 01:53:51.020
for the job who shouldn't be on the rig in the

01:53:51.020 --> 01:53:53.239
first place. It sounds harsh, but as we said,

01:53:53.319 --> 01:53:55.359
this job isn't for everyone. And by lowering

01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:57.859
the bar, we've increased the chances of that

01:53:57.859 --> 01:54:01.199
kind of thing happening. And the public deserves

01:54:01.199 --> 01:54:04.220
it, right? The public deserves having somebody

01:54:04.220 --> 01:54:07.800
who is fit enough to do the job. uh, in order

01:54:07.800 --> 01:54:10.880
to save them on that one in a one in a thousand

01:54:10.880 --> 01:54:14.460
times that it requires a superb level of fitness.

01:54:14.579 --> 01:54:17.239
You have to be ready to do that. A hundred percent.

01:54:17.739 --> 01:54:19.920
All right. Well, the siren project, then we talked

01:54:19.920 --> 01:54:22.180
about the medicine. Talk to me about what you

01:54:22.180 --> 01:54:26.979
guys do for the American first responders. Sure.

01:54:27.119 --> 01:54:29.800
So, you know, we have, uh, we've sort of built

01:54:29.800 --> 01:54:32.640
a program and, and like I mentioned before, everybody

01:54:32.640 --> 01:54:35.449
focuses on the actual retreat. which is a small

01:54:35.449 --> 01:54:40.510
part of it so what we do is we start with getting

01:54:40.510 --> 01:54:43.329
you onboarded and getting you some coaching so

01:54:43.329 --> 01:54:45.069
everybody who's going to be part of our program

01:54:45.069 --> 01:54:48.069
goes through a screening including what kind

01:54:48.069 --> 01:54:50.210
of medicines are you on what can you stay on

01:54:50.210 --> 01:54:54.930
what can you not stay on we have fantastic coaches

01:54:54.930 --> 01:55:00.029
who go through building some intentions around

01:55:00.029 --> 01:55:03.479
why you're doing this journey They won't ever

01:55:03.479 --> 01:55:06.020
solve the problem for you, but they will help

01:55:06.020 --> 01:55:08.239
guide you in a way where you solve it yourself.

01:55:08.979 --> 01:55:10.979
One thing nobody talks about with this medicine

01:55:10.979 --> 01:55:13.560
is the medicine does not cure you. You are curing

01:55:13.560 --> 01:55:15.819
yourself with the help of the medicine. And so

01:55:15.819 --> 01:55:19.159
all of this is within you. So we start a couple

01:55:19.159 --> 01:55:21.560
months out. We have a couple one -on -one coaching

01:55:21.560 --> 01:55:24.659
sessions. We do a couple of group calls so people

01:55:24.659 --> 01:55:28.479
can get to know each other. We send out a pretty

01:55:28.479 --> 01:55:31.689
thick workbook so people can start. asking themselves

01:55:31.689 --> 01:55:34.350
the questions they should, try to build some

01:55:34.350 --> 01:55:37.930
healthy habits like journaling, like going for

01:55:37.930 --> 01:55:43.329
walks, like some diet changes that are really

01:55:43.329 --> 01:55:45.729
tough to do. And so I applaud the people that

01:55:45.729 --> 01:55:48.949
do them, but we make sure they're off nicotine.

01:55:49.029 --> 01:55:52.250
We make sure they're off caffeine. We drastically

01:55:52.250 --> 01:55:59.050
reduce red meat coming up to the retreat. No

01:55:59.050 --> 01:56:01.710
alcohol. So they're off all their alcohol. They're

01:56:01.710 --> 01:56:05.630
off all their opioids. It's really an elimination

01:56:05.630 --> 01:56:08.630
diet. And it sets them up because what we found

01:56:08.630 --> 01:56:11.590
is that through the medicine, if they have several

01:56:11.590 --> 01:56:14.989
weeks of really being clean, it's a lot easier

01:56:14.989 --> 01:56:17.810
to never go back to those habits, whether that's

01:56:17.810 --> 01:56:20.909
chewing or drinking or drinking caffeine in the

01:56:20.909 --> 01:56:24.409
morning or limiting your caffeine. I know for

01:56:24.409 --> 01:56:27.649
me, I drank a pot of coffee a day every day.

01:56:28.109 --> 01:56:30.649
And when I came back from the medicine, I just

01:56:30.649 --> 01:56:33.609
had no desire to do it. It wasn't ever an intention

01:56:33.609 --> 01:56:36.550
of mine, but my body just no longer wanted that

01:56:36.550 --> 01:56:39.289
in me. And the same went for drinking. So my

01:56:39.289 --> 01:56:42.010
drinking is drastically less now where I may

01:56:42.010 --> 01:56:44.430
have a glass of wine a month with my wife, but

01:56:44.430 --> 01:56:48.609
that's about it. So we set them up with a dieta.

01:56:52.270 --> 01:56:55.069
Historically, that would include not having sex.

01:56:55.819 --> 01:56:58.020
go that far and asking people not to have sex

01:56:58.020 --> 01:57:00.520
or anything before because that's just asking

01:57:00.520 --> 01:57:04.060
people to fail um and then they go they go down

01:57:04.060 --> 01:57:05.819
to the retreat and the retreat's held in puerto

01:57:05.819 --> 01:57:11.060
vallarta dr andrea lucy i mentioned facilitates

01:57:11.060 --> 01:57:14.819
the whole thing i often go to hold space or other

01:57:14.819 --> 01:57:17.720
people like me go and hold space and they're

01:57:17.720 --> 01:57:22.000
there for about six days and that includes sweat

01:57:22.000 --> 01:57:27.239
lodges the rapay the flower bath um the medicine

01:57:27.239 --> 01:57:31.319
itself and then a ton of integration training

01:57:31.319 --> 01:57:34.319
how are we going to implement all this stuff

01:57:34.319 --> 01:57:37.159
when we get back home and then when they return

01:57:37.159 --> 01:57:39.399
home it's it's we do the same thing we have a

01:57:39.399 --> 01:57:41.899
couple individual coaching sessions and a couple

01:57:41.899 --> 01:57:45.340
group calls and they're placed in the larger

01:57:45.340 --> 01:57:48.739
community so we use signal to communicate they're

01:57:48.739 --> 01:57:52.020
placed in the alumni group with the other 150

01:57:52.020 --> 01:57:55.069
or so alumni that are in that group And it's

01:57:55.069 --> 01:57:59.250
almost like an accountability group. And then

01:57:59.250 --> 01:58:01.710
their own individual tribe signal group stays

01:58:01.710 --> 01:58:03.869
alive so that they can keep in touch with each

01:58:03.869 --> 01:58:06.949
other. We do things that we think are important,

01:58:07.029 --> 01:58:09.449
including drug testing leading up to it so that

01:58:09.449 --> 01:58:12.329
we know that people have done the diet and so

01:58:12.329 --> 01:58:13.949
that it's safe for them to have the medicine.

01:58:16.130 --> 01:58:19.210
So it's really kind of a well -rounded thing.

01:58:19.369 --> 01:58:22.039
After they've done the medicine, we will... let

01:58:22.039 --> 01:58:23.680
them know about other things there's some people

01:58:23.680 --> 01:58:26.939
who want to do more so if we're going to host

01:58:26.939 --> 01:58:29.420
an ayahuasca retreat we let them know about that

01:58:29.420 --> 01:58:33.579
there's places we go for huachuma which is san

01:58:33.579 --> 01:58:39.439
pedro and so it's it's a a place for people who

01:58:39.439 --> 01:58:42.100
who now can all trust each other and are part

01:58:42.100 --> 01:58:46.399
of this community to go and talk and so even

01:58:46.399 --> 01:58:51.140
within my own department i've sent um almost

01:58:51.140 --> 01:58:55.479
20 percent now of the department so for me it

01:58:55.479 --> 01:58:57.220
was a question of what happens to the morale

01:58:57.220 --> 01:59:00.079
around here if people have experienced the medicine

01:59:00.079 --> 01:59:03.159
and so we have our own groups within our department

01:59:03.159 --> 01:59:06.420
who we know have experienced the same thing have

01:59:06.420 --> 01:59:10.180
had their sort of hearts opened and you can see

01:59:10.180 --> 01:59:11.760
the change among them so it's our own little

01:59:11.760 --> 01:59:15.479
support group that's incredible Absolutely incredible.

01:59:16.260 --> 01:59:19.119
What have you seen as far as a shift then from,

01:59:19.199 --> 01:59:21.000
I was having this conversation with a friend

01:59:21.000 --> 01:59:25.500
of mine today about his uncle, who's very deeply

01:59:25.500 --> 01:59:29.159
religious as far as Christianity and won't do

01:59:29.159 --> 01:59:31.279
the Ibogaine in this particular case because

01:59:31.279 --> 01:59:34.300
of his faith and it's against what God would

01:59:34.300 --> 01:59:36.199
have said. And you take a step back and go, wait

01:59:36.199 --> 01:59:40.539
a second, you're addicted to this one synthetic

01:59:40.539 --> 01:59:43.439
chemical. and you're opposed to this thing that

01:59:43.439 --> 01:59:45.520
grows naturally on the earth god put it here

01:59:45.520 --> 01:59:48.159
so what have you seen as far as a shift of the

01:59:48.159 --> 01:59:54.039
stigma of this kind of treatment we we have benefited

01:59:54.039 --> 01:59:56.380
greatly from the veteran community particularly

01:59:56.380 --> 02:00:00.979
organizations like crow cards and vets to reduce

02:00:00.979 --> 02:00:03.399
the stigma and that was important for me personally

02:00:03.399 --> 02:00:06.960
when i knew that a guy that i had the utmost

02:00:06.960 --> 02:00:09.520
respect for jimmy when he told me he had done

02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:15.300
it And a SEAL Team 6 guy doing it made it okay

02:00:15.300 --> 02:00:20.180
for me. So what we see here at home around the

02:00:20.180 --> 02:00:23.399
kitchen table is not so much. I don't advertise

02:00:23.399 --> 02:00:28.380
what I do around my department at all. But I

02:00:28.380 --> 02:00:31.880
do remove the stigma of talking about stuff that

02:00:31.880 --> 02:00:34.460
bothers us. So if people want to talk about that

02:00:34.460 --> 02:00:39.789
in public around the kitchen table. But what

02:00:39.789 --> 02:00:42.529
we mostly see is somebody pulls me aside on the

02:00:42.529 --> 02:00:45.550
app A floor and says, hey, man, this is going

02:00:45.550 --> 02:00:48.710
on. And I become a safe place for people to go

02:00:48.710 --> 02:00:51.210
and talk to. And that makes a difference because

02:00:51.210 --> 02:00:55.489
from there, you know, let's go get you some EAP.

02:00:55.689 --> 02:00:59.010
Let's start the process. And that's the scariest

02:00:59.010 --> 02:01:01.029
thing for most people is putting their hand up

02:01:01.029 --> 02:01:03.890
and saying, I can't fix this myself. I need help.

02:01:04.720 --> 02:01:06.979
i've reached i've reached the end where i can

02:01:06.979 --> 02:01:11.560
i know i can't fix this anymore and i certainly

02:01:11.560 --> 02:01:13.560
experienced that there's no way in hell i was

02:01:13.560 --> 02:01:15.579
ever going to raise my hand and say i need help

02:01:15.579 --> 02:01:18.479
um until somebody showed me that that was all

02:01:18.479 --> 02:01:21.020
right so that's that's one of the big changes

02:01:21.020 --> 02:01:24.300
that we've seen beautiful and one last thing

02:01:24.300 --> 02:01:26.500
talk to me about the financial side of the siren

02:01:26.500 --> 02:01:32.859
project so i'm i'm a firefighter and Going and

02:01:32.859 --> 02:01:36.239
asking people for money is awful and we're not

02:01:36.239 --> 02:01:39.479
really good at it, but that's what drives a lot

02:01:39.479 --> 02:01:43.159
of this process. So we, we have funded a lot

02:01:43.159 --> 02:01:45.960
of it by working overtime. So I will work overtime,

02:01:46.039 --> 02:01:48.579
put it into the nonprofit so that people can

02:01:48.579 --> 02:01:52.680
go get the healing. As we've become known a little

02:01:52.680 --> 02:01:58.899
bit, there's more demand and it is morally repulsive

02:01:58.899 --> 02:02:02.560
to me to. Have somebody apply, get put on our

02:02:02.560 --> 02:02:04.939
wait list and go, yeah, I know you're hurting

02:02:04.939 --> 02:02:07.020
really bad. And I know you've told us you've

02:02:07.020 --> 02:02:09.659
had thoughts of suicide. We can get you in in

02:02:09.659 --> 02:02:11.720
the summer of twenty twenty seven. Like that

02:02:11.720 --> 02:02:15.819
is that is too long to wait. So we need we need

02:02:15.819 --> 02:02:18.060
funding. And so we were out actively looking

02:02:18.060 --> 02:02:22.439
for funding. We haven't announced it publicly

02:02:22.439 --> 02:02:24.840
yet, but we will be having a large gala in New

02:02:24.840 --> 02:02:28.159
York City on September 10th with an incredible

02:02:28.159 --> 02:02:30.670
speaker. who will be this will be kind of our

02:02:30.670 --> 02:02:35.949
first major public uh exposure um when we announce

02:02:35.949 --> 02:02:38.149
it you will have heard of her and the things

02:02:38.149 --> 02:02:40.810
she's done but it will be a fantastic experience

02:02:40.810 --> 02:02:43.029
in new york and then we're going to be there

02:02:43.029 --> 02:02:47.810
on september 11th for the 21st anniversary so

02:02:47.810 --> 02:02:51.289
we haven't announced ticket sales yet but please

02:02:51.289 --> 02:02:54.630
check out the sirenproject .org That's where

02:02:54.630 --> 02:02:56.210
it will all be announced. That's where we'll

02:02:56.210 --> 02:02:58.909
have ticket sales and follow us on all the socials.

02:02:59.729 --> 02:03:02.850
Our goal is we would love to reach first responders

02:03:02.850 --> 02:03:06.130
and have them sign up. But we also need your

02:03:06.130 --> 02:03:10.029
rich uncle to contribute something to help because

02:03:10.029 --> 02:03:12.750
that's really what it comes down to. Absolutely.

02:03:12.949 --> 02:03:15.090
Yeah, and I think we're going to do another interview

02:03:15.090 --> 02:03:16.949
further into the year so that we can make sure

02:03:16.949 --> 02:03:18.710
people know when everything is live as well.

02:03:19.640 --> 02:03:22.140
So for people listening then, where firstly can

02:03:22.140 --> 02:03:25.060
they find The Siren Project? So we're online

02:03:25.060 --> 02:03:29.619
at thesirenproject .org. Thesirenproject .org

02:03:29.619 --> 02:03:32.460
or The Siren Project is on all the socials. So

02:03:32.460 --> 02:03:35.420
we are revamping our website. You'll see a brand

02:03:35.420 --> 02:03:39.640
new fresh one out there. So the website is great.

02:03:39.739 --> 02:03:44.220
But what really I think gets people to commit

02:03:44.220 --> 02:03:47.020
is when somebody they know or trust has gone.

02:03:47.760 --> 02:03:51.899
And so as we have built out, as we've had more

02:03:51.899 --> 02:03:55.239
people attend, you know, you've hosted a couple

02:03:55.239 --> 02:03:58.539
or three here on your show. And talking to people

02:03:58.539 --> 02:04:00.859
you trust is really what gives people the comfort

02:04:00.859 --> 02:04:04.199
to go. There are a bunch of organizations out

02:04:04.199 --> 02:04:08.199
there. I think this is the only one where Angela

02:04:08.199 --> 02:04:10.319
and I are both actual firefighters. We're not

02:04:10.319 --> 02:04:13.739
therapists. We speak the language. We have lived

02:04:13.739 --> 02:04:17.900
in the firehouse. We know what's going on. So

02:04:17.900 --> 02:04:21.619
that authenticity, I think, is important when

02:04:21.619 --> 02:04:24.739
you're looking at who you trust to provide this.

02:04:25.060 --> 02:04:28.420
So we're on the sirenproject .org, the socials.

02:04:28.420 --> 02:04:31.300
And I welcome anybody to call me. I'll give you

02:04:31.300 --> 02:04:36.140
my phone number. It's 415 -722 -1798. If you

02:04:36.140 --> 02:04:38.859
are struggling, if you need help, you can reach

02:04:38.859 --> 02:04:41.800
out to me. And I'm at tim at the sirenproject

02:04:41.800 --> 02:04:44.300
.org. And email is always a faster way to get

02:04:44.300 --> 02:04:47.430
a hold of me. So tim at the sirenproject .org.

02:04:48.229 --> 02:04:50.430
Beautiful. Well, I want to throw some quick closing

02:04:50.430 --> 02:04:53.149
questions at you before I let you go. The first

02:04:53.149 --> 02:04:55.470
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there

02:04:55.470 --> 02:04:58.109
books that you love to recommend? It can be related

02:04:58.109 --> 02:05:00.289
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

02:05:01.649 --> 02:05:07.250
I referenced one called Operator Syndrome. That's

02:05:07.250 --> 02:05:11.510
by Dr. Chris Frew. Frey, I think. Frey, Frey.

02:05:11.689 --> 02:05:15.039
Yeah, he is. That really opened my eyes because

02:05:15.039 --> 02:05:18.880
I turned the page and saw myself on every one

02:05:18.880 --> 02:05:22.380
of them. So that's a fantastic one for starters.

02:05:22.500 --> 02:05:24.800
He's also started doing work on firefighter syndrome

02:05:24.800 --> 02:05:27.460
and police officer stuff. And so he's in the

02:05:27.460 --> 02:05:30.579
space. There's another book called The Medicine

02:05:30.579 --> 02:05:34.640
is Sacred by Uncle Henry, who was one of the

02:05:34.640 --> 02:05:37.699
mentors for Dr. Lucy. So if you want to really

02:05:37.699 --> 02:05:40.640
go read about some of the history of the Lakota.

02:05:41.100 --> 02:05:43.340
And the Lakota Medicine, that is a fantastic

02:05:43.340 --> 02:05:47.140
place to start. What about film, television,

02:05:47.319 --> 02:05:50.739
or documentaries? This is interesting because

02:05:50.739 --> 02:05:55.060
we talk about the dieta for people going on these

02:05:55.060 --> 02:05:58.859
retreats. And part of your diet is what you consume

02:05:58.859 --> 02:06:03.260
in terms of media, social media, movies. And

02:06:03.260 --> 02:06:05.319
so I've gone away from being like a John Wick

02:06:05.319 --> 02:06:09.479
fan, which I love the series, but I don't watch

02:06:09.479 --> 02:06:14.899
that. There's a great documentary called Finding

02:06:14.899 --> 02:06:20.720
Joe, which I love. There's the was it the mole,

02:06:20.960 --> 02:06:25.840
the horse, the short film. Love that. And we're

02:06:25.840 --> 02:06:29.140
out there often recommending like try watching

02:06:29.140 --> 02:06:31.619
this your first couple of weeks back. Not this.

02:06:31.800 --> 02:06:33.939
So those are a couple of favorites of mine. I

02:06:33.939 --> 02:06:38.189
think the movie. soul to watch that before and

02:06:38.189 --> 02:06:41.189
after you have experience in medicine is fantastic

02:06:41.189 --> 02:06:43.890
because I think that gets to a lot of what we're

02:06:43.890 --> 02:06:48.529
trying to teach people. Brilliant. This is totally

02:06:48.529 --> 02:06:51.109
recreationally now. I'm removing this from what

02:06:51.109 --> 02:06:53.250
we've talked about, but when I lived in Japan,

02:06:53.529 --> 02:06:56.029
mushrooms were actually legal. They had Hawaiian

02:06:56.029 --> 02:06:59.529
and Mexican. I went and watched Planet of the

02:06:59.529 --> 02:07:02.220
Apes with a friend. And that was an amazing experience.

02:07:02.359 --> 02:07:04.359
When the lights came up, everyone was an ape,

02:07:04.479 --> 02:07:07.479
you know, very, very humorous. Right. But then

02:07:07.479 --> 02:07:09.260
I watched it, I think a few weeks later, I watched

02:07:09.260 --> 02:07:12.279
a Jet Li movie. Definitely don't recommend that.

02:07:12.600 --> 02:07:16.039
You said that intensity on that particular mushroom,

02:07:16.220 --> 02:07:18.119
those two did not go together. I just couldn't

02:07:18.119 --> 02:07:20.840
catch up. I was like behind each other, punches

02:07:20.840 --> 02:07:23.279
and kicks the whole way. And it just, not so

02:07:23.279 --> 02:07:25.479
much of a fun experience. So I can see how, yeah,

02:07:25.520 --> 02:07:28.170
you know, once you've had that. spiritually enlightening

02:07:28.170 --> 02:07:31.149
um experience that yeah you'd want something

02:07:31.149 --> 02:07:33.069
that would really touch your soul rather than

02:07:33.069 --> 02:07:35.270
you know you killed my dog i'm going to murder

02:07:35.270 --> 02:07:39.770
5 000 people exactly all right well the next

02:07:39.770 --> 02:07:41.710
question is there a person you'd recommend to

02:07:41.710 --> 02:07:44.649
come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the

02:07:44.649 --> 02:07:48.010
first responders military and associated professions

02:07:48.010 --> 02:07:52.170
of the world uh yeah i got i got three that come

02:07:52.170 --> 02:07:54.449
to mind immediately one is dr lucy who we've

02:07:54.449 --> 02:07:57.500
mentioned here um She'd be a tough one to get

02:07:57.500 --> 02:08:02.520
because she's a little shy and she has no ego,

02:08:02.659 --> 02:08:05.319
which is so refreshing. But she is a fantastic

02:08:05.319 --> 02:08:08.220
person with a ton of experience with military

02:08:08.220 --> 02:08:12.060
and first responders. Next would be Jeff Boss.

02:08:12.300 --> 02:08:18.279
Jeff Boss is a retired Navy SEAL. He operated

02:08:18.279 --> 02:08:22.020
at the highest levels and he has changed his

02:08:22.020 --> 02:08:26.619
life to be from sort of that tier one operator

02:08:26.619 --> 02:08:30.220
to now he's going to be a therapist and fantastic

02:08:30.220 --> 02:08:33.000
guy. I work with him quite a bit and I absolutely

02:08:33.000 --> 02:08:35.279
love him. And he would be fantastic to be on

02:08:35.279 --> 02:08:40.420
your show. The third person is a local guy. He

02:08:40.420 --> 02:08:42.260
retired a couple of years ago. His name's JD

02:08:42.260 --> 02:08:46.479
Madden. JD Madden was a deputy chief for the

02:08:46.479 --> 02:08:50.439
city of Santa Clara. And he is very special in

02:08:50.439 --> 02:08:53.859
my heart. He is somebody who, when he speaks,

02:08:53.880 --> 02:08:56.989
you just, listen and follow and he has that presence

02:08:56.989 --> 02:08:59.569
about him and he helped guide that department

02:08:59.569 --> 02:09:02.329
through a suicide that they had of somebody that

02:09:02.329 --> 02:09:06.270
that i know who was on my task force and who

02:09:06.270 --> 02:09:09.869
jd was very close with so jd madden is has some

02:09:09.869 --> 02:09:13.470
very special um views on the world and is a fantastic

02:09:13.470 --> 02:09:16.149
guy beautiful well i'd love to get any of them

02:09:16.149 --> 02:09:17.630
if you're able to help connect that would be

02:09:17.630 --> 02:09:20.520
amazing yeah absolutely Brilliant. All right.

02:09:20.520 --> 02:09:22.199
Well, then the last question before we make sure

02:09:22.199 --> 02:09:24.500
everyone knows where to find you, what do you

02:09:24.500 --> 02:09:30.560
do to decompress? So my practices have really

02:09:30.560 --> 02:09:32.800
changed. Obviously, there were some unhealthy

02:09:32.800 --> 02:09:37.640
practices I had before. Now my go -to is when

02:09:37.640 --> 02:09:40.239
I wake up, because I wake up early ahead of my

02:09:40.239 --> 02:09:46.760
wife and son, I go and I like to meditate. And

02:09:46.760 --> 02:09:48.960
I'll do that for 15 minutes. And that sort of

02:09:48.960 --> 02:09:52.079
sets my day up. But I have a progression. So

02:09:52.079 --> 02:09:55.880
if I'm, you know, this medicine does not relieve

02:09:55.880 --> 02:09:58.300
you of the pressures of the world, right? I'm

02:09:58.300 --> 02:10:01.380
still human. All the stuff that gets me mad still

02:10:01.380 --> 02:10:05.239
gets me mad. But it's a progression of I meditate.

02:10:05.779 --> 02:10:09.180
Then I go for a 30 -minute walk out in the woods.

02:10:09.739 --> 02:10:12.020
And then if that's still not working, I'll go

02:10:12.020 --> 02:10:15.319
hit the gym for a hard workout. and if that's

02:10:15.319 --> 02:10:16.960
still not working then i get the pen out in my

02:10:16.960 --> 02:10:19.060
journal so i have sort of a progression that

02:10:19.060 --> 02:10:24.100
i need to go down and and like our mental patients

02:10:24.100 --> 02:10:27.460
i'm no different when i'm feeling good i stop

02:10:27.460 --> 02:10:29.479
doing all the practices that i know i need to

02:10:29.479 --> 02:10:32.279
do every day and then two weeks later i'll be

02:10:32.279 --> 02:10:35.579
grumpy and cranky and and i don't know why and

02:10:35.579 --> 02:10:37.880
i'll go oh i haven't meditated for two weeks

02:10:37.880 --> 02:10:41.569
because i've been feeling so good So part of

02:10:41.569 --> 02:10:43.670
it is forgiveness of yourself for when you're

02:10:43.670 --> 02:10:46.489
not perfect or you don't get up in that morning

02:10:46.489 --> 02:10:48.970
and hit the gym really hard that your body needs

02:10:48.970 --> 02:10:51.310
rest and you listen to it. There is some level

02:10:51.310 --> 02:10:54.310
of understanding of forgiveness of we're all

02:10:54.310 --> 02:10:56.090
going to be human and nobody's going to be perfect.

02:10:57.069 --> 02:10:59.250
Absolutely. I'm the same with that, even with

02:10:59.250 --> 02:11:02.229
my back health routine. that healed my back if

02:11:02.229 --> 02:11:04.149
i don't do that for a while it gets a bit tweaky

02:11:04.149 --> 02:11:06.529
again it's that's the worst thing is when you

02:11:06.529 --> 02:11:08.750
feel good you just drop off and you kind of forget

02:11:08.750 --> 02:11:10.270
that that's the reason that you feel good in

02:11:10.270 --> 02:11:12.489
the first place and the number one thing for

02:11:12.489 --> 02:11:15.010
me on that is when i eat sugar like i will go

02:11:15.010 --> 02:11:18.489
on this kick where i'm eating really really dirty

02:11:18.489 --> 02:11:21.149
and i'll be like god my back is starting to flare

02:11:21.149 --> 02:11:24.029
up again i don't know why i'm like oh you idiot

02:11:24.029 --> 02:11:26.229
you've been eating sugar for the last week like

02:11:26.489 --> 02:11:29.229
it totally has an impact physically on me. So

02:11:29.229 --> 02:11:31.869
that's another one. A hundred percent. All right.

02:11:31.869 --> 02:11:33.289
Well, you talked about the Siren Project already.

02:11:33.550 --> 02:11:36.329
Where else can people find you as far as social

02:11:36.329 --> 02:11:38.250
media and then the dog training that you do?

02:11:39.090 --> 02:11:43.170
Sure. I'm Tim Howling on all the social media

02:11:43.170 --> 02:11:46.250
and I run another nonprofit that we didn't really

02:11:46.250 --> 02:11:49.289
talk about. It's called HD Search Dog Fund. HD

02:11:49.289 --> 02:11:53.109
Search Dog Fund is meant to support the working

02:11:53.109 --> 02:11:55.760
dogs in the United States. specifically the search

02:11:55.760 --> 02:11:59.119
and rescue dogs. What that means is every year

02:11:59.119 --> 02:12:01.479
we host the largest search and rescue dog training

02:12:01.479 --> 02:12:04.159
in the United States. A couple weeks ago, we

02:12:04.159 --> 02:12:06.920
had 105 search and rescue dog teams from across

02:12:06.920 --> 02:12:10.000
the United States and Canada come to the Bay

02:12:10.000 --> 02:12:13.239
Area, and we had them cycle through three training

02:12:13.239 --> 02:12:15.680
sites, Task Force 3, Task Force 4, and Task Force

02:12:15.680 --> 02:12:19.380
7 of California. And our three task forces have

02:12:19.380 --> 02:12:21.920
worked great together. We're all very close.

02:12:21.979 --> 02:12:24.890
We all train together. And the idea of that organization

02:12:24.890 --> 02:12:29.710
is that the USAR folks owe it to the wilderness

02:12:29.710 --> 02:12:33.590
folks to prepare them for when the call comes,

02:12:33.770 --> 02:12:35.449
when we do have the big earthquake and they're

02:12:35.449 --> 02:12:38.449
going to be on the pile. And so we want to do

02:12:38.449 --> 02:12:40.189
a lot of information sharing so that they can

02:12:40.189 --> 02:12:42.550
operate safely. And we want to learn from them,

02:12:42.550 --> 02:12:45.069
too, about how they do their jobs. So we're trying

02:12:45.069 --> 02:12:47.689
to bridge the gap. So that's HDSearchDogFund

02:12:47.689 --> 02:12:52.239
.org. on the socials as HD Search Dog Fund. And

02:12:52.239 --> 02:12:55.819
that's really where I get a lot of my decompression

02:12:55.819 --> 02:12:59.020
time and my own personal time is the dog stuff.

02:12:59.720 --> 02:13:02.079
Beautiful. Well, Tim, I want to say thank you

02:13:02.079 --> 02:13:04.340
so much. It's been such an amazing conversation.

02:13:04.500 --> 02:13:07.199
Just the search dog conversation alone was fascinating.

02:13:07.199 --> 02:13:10.060
But obviously, all the mental health side and

02:13:10.060 --> 02:13:12.640
the psychedelic therapy, I think, was just so

02:13:12.640 --> 02:13:14.380
important for people to hear. And it just layers.

02:13:14.720 --> 02:13:18.020
I've had SEAL Team 6 people and SAS and Australian

02:13:18.020 --> 02:13:21.760
firefighters and USAR search handlers. They're

02:13:21.760 --> 02:13:23.659
hearing the same message over and over again.

02:13:23.800 --> 02:13:26.800
So hopefully, it's really adding weight to the

02:13:26.800 --> 02:13:29.359
importance of this. So I want to thank you so

02:13:29.359 --> 02:13:31.149
much for being here. So generous with your time

02:13:31.149 --> 02:13:33.229
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

02:13:33.829 --> 02:13:35.949
Thank you. Thank you for the platform. I appreciate

02:13:35.949 --> 02:13:39.569
it and love your show. And you're making a big

02:13:39.569 --> 02:13:41.329
difference to everybody. So thank you.