WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.780 Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As 00:00:01.780 --> 00:00:04.059 always, my name is James Geering, and I am so 00:00:04.059 --> 00:00:07.599 excited to release this episode for two reasons. 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:13.759 Firstly, this is episode 1 ,200, so 1 ,200 episodes 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:16.539 now are in this free library that is the Behind 00:00:16.539 --> 00:00:19.780 the Shield podcast. Secondly, to commemorate 00:00:19.780 --> 00:00:22.780 this landmark episode, I'm bringing a topic that 00:00:22.780 --> 00:00:26.079 I think affects every single one of us out there. 00:00:26.940 --> 00:00:29.640 Neil Kinnear is not only a psychologist, but 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.659 also a behavioral specialist in the world of 00:00:32.659 --> 00:00:35.719 road safety. And for those of you out there listening 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.799 who wear a uniform for a living, I'm sure like 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:41.259 myself, some of your most horrific memories are 00:00:41.259 --> 00:00:44.119 those fatalities we have on the road. It's also 00:00:44.119 --> 00:00:45.979 something that scares the hell out of me now 00:00:45.979 --> 00:00:49.719 as a father of an 18 and a 24 year old, the age 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:52.020 bracket that is very, very high risk when it 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:54.939 comes to deaths on the road as well. So in this 00:00:54.939 --> 00:00:58.060 conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:00.119 Neil's journey into the world of psychology, 00:01:00.460 --> 00:01:03.240 how that led him to understanding the mind of 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:05.920 the driver, because as he points out, behind 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:09.900 every single wheel is a human being, the frameworks 00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:13.099 and cultural philosophies behind the safest drivers 00:01:13.099 --> 00:01:16.379 in the world, the fallacy behind fear -mongering 00:01:16.379 --> 00:01:20.900 for safety, the efficacy of driving tests, setting 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:24.329 high standards, how insurance companies are using 00:01:24.329 --> 00:01:28.189 GPS to improve road safety, the impact of sleep 00:01:28.189 --> 00:01:31.489 deprivation on safety on our roads, and so much 00:01:31.489 --> 00:01:35.069 more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:01:35.290 --> 00:01:38.010 as I say every week, please just take a moment. 00:01:38.430 --> 00:01:41.650 Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:01:41.650 --> 00:01:45.409 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:01:46.349 --> 00:01:49.469 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:01:49.469 --> 00:01:52.230 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:01:52.230 --> 00:01:55.469 others to find. And as I mentioned, this is now 00:01:55.469 --> 00:02:00.849 a free library of 1 ,200 episodes now. So all 00:02:00.849 --> 00:02:04.090 I ask in return is that you help share these 00:02:04.090 --> 00:02:07.090 incredible men and women's stories so I can get 00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:10.430 them to every single person on planet Earth who 00:02:10.430 --> 00:02:13.490 needs to hear them. So with that being said, 00:02:13.710 --> 00:02:37.780 I introduce to you... Neil Kinnear. Enjoy. Well, 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:40.419 Neil, I want to start by saying thank you so 00:02:40.419 --> 00:02:43.460 much for... Trusting this weirdo that reached 00:02:43.460 --> 00:02:45.699 out out of nowhere on the internet and coming 00:02:45.699 --> 00:02:49.139 on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Not at 00:02:49.139 --> 00:02:52.039 all. Thank you for reaching out. Honoured to 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:56.900 be on the podcast. I've listened to a few of 00:02:56.900 --> 00:02:59.819 the people that you've interviewed previously 00:02:59.819 --> 00:03:03.360 and had on the podcast, and they've got just 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:08.319 remarkable backgrounds and stories. So yeah, 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.219 it's an honor to be on the podcast, so thanks. 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.280 Thank you. So very first question, where on planet 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:18.419 Earth are we finding you today? So I'm based 00:03:18.419 --> 00:03:24.219 just west of London, but obviously my accent 00:03:24.219 --> 00:03:27.360 is not quite suitable for that area, so I am 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.919 originally from Glasgow in Scotland. Well, let's 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:33.900 start there. So tell me a little bit about your 00:03:33.900 --> 00:03:36.500 upbringing, what your parents did, how many siblings? 00:03:38.349 --> 00:03:44.310 So I was a very standard middle -class upbringing, 00:03:44.409 --> 00:03:47.870 I would say, for Britain. You know, three -bed, 00:03:47.969 --> 00:03:50.949 semi -detached house in the suburbs of Glasgow. 00:03:51.110 --> 00:03:55.889 My dad was an insurance broker. My mum was just 00:03:55.889 --> 00:04:01.629 an administrative assistant. And I had an older 00:04:01.629 --> 00:04:04.349 sister who was very much someone I looked up 00:04:04.349 --> 00:04:07.199 to and led the way and was always... excellent 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.759 at everything she did which uh which always made 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:13.800 it difficult to follow um but yeah you mentioned 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.579 your dad was in insurance did he cover you know 00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:18.480 car insurance that kind of area that you ended 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.459 up finding yourself you know becoming an expert 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:23.980 in yes it's a really it's a strange one he he 00:04:23.980 --> 00:04:28.639 loved cars and uh and motoring and and motorsport 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:32.240 and so i you know i grew up with a you know an 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:38.519 interest in it as well um but it wasn't My passion 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:40.800 or interest in that area did not lead me to where 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:44.600 I am today or the career path I went down. It 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:51.720 was very much I followed a flow of life and life 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:57.339 led me into this role. What about sports and 00:04:57.339 --> 00:04:59.120 exercise? What were you playing and doing when 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:03.459 you were in school ages? Very much football was 00:05:03.459 --> 00:05:06.870 my... you know, the big thing. I enjoyed all 00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:09.709 sports. I did everything. You know, loved getting 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:13.730 on my bike and cycling. Loved playing tennis. 00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:16.790 But I played football, you know, like every day 00:05:16.790 --> 00:05:19.509 after school. It's straight down. The first thing 00:05:19.509 --> 00:05:21.290 you did was jump on the bike, go straight down 00:05:21.290 --> 00:05:25.509 to the park and kick the ball around. And for 00:05:25.509 --> 00:05:28.449 your listeners, obviously soccer. But yeah, that 00:05:28.449 --> 00:05:33.379 was the joy. I still play today, just clearly 00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:37.279 not quite as with quite the veracity that I did. 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:39.860 It's funny that you say that because I actually 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:42.019 play now. I hadn't played for years. I did martial 00:05:42.019 --> 00:05:43.500 arts for a long time, but I actually started 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:46.300 playing like two, two and a half years ago now 00:05:46.300 --> 00:05:49.319 with a group just on a Sunday. But I have this 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:51.959 conversation with people all the time. I don't 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:53.779 know if it was still the case when you were in 00:05:53.779 --> 00:05:55.279 school because I'm obviously a little bit older 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.779 than you, but I don't remember there being any 00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:02.110 kind of. super high performance when it came 00:06:02.110 --> 00:06:04.910 to sports in schools. You know, we all have those, 00:06:04.949 --> 00:06:06.389 you know, that one kid that you know that was 00:06:06.389 --> 00:06:08.550 just phenomenal and they went off and, you know, 00:06:08.550 --> 00:06:11.129 joined a team and did the kind of farm thing 00:06:11.129 --> 00:06:14.170 there. But the rest of us, we just played sports, 00:06:14.410 --> 00:06:16.149 you know, and there wasn't like, you know, elite 00:06:16.149 --> 00:06:18.069 gyms where you were, you know, doing strength 00:06:18.069 --> 00:06:20.610 and conditioning or anything. But what I saw 00:06:20.610 --> 00:06:23.009 was, as we're having this conversation now, his 00:06:23.009 --> 00:06:25.110 two British men that are still playing sports 00:06:25.110 --> 00:06:27.589 and still, you know, argue in good shape, you 00:06:27.589 --> 00:06:30.600 know, in whatever age we are now. What I've seen 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:34.759 in America is they push performance at such a 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:37.379 high level in the schools and the colleges that 00:06:37.379 --> 00:06:40.800 more often than not, these young athletes break 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:43.279 and then they get burned out and they don't continue 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:45.560 to exercise. And you see obviously what we have 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:47.360 at the moment, which is three quarters of the 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:50.240 country is overweight or obese. So it's an interesting 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.500 perspective on the two different philosophies. 00:06:53.699 --> 00:06:58.009 Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. Yeah, 00:06:58.050 --> 00:07:02.569 I do wonder if a push for performance and sort 00:07:02.569 --> 00:07:05.970 of excelling and elite, you know, elite level 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:12.069 performance in sports at a young age could really 00:07:12.069 --> 00:07:16.069 put people off who are never going to reach that, 00:07:16.170 --> 00:07:20.189 which is most of us. And actually, the great 00:07:20.189 --> 00:07:23.569 values of sport are about the enjoyment of it. 00:07:23.649 --> 00:07:26.910 Obviously, the health you get from it. But really, 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:31.879 Some of those benefits, the health benefits, 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:37.920 I didn't care about that as a kid. I just did 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:40.019 it because I enjoyed it and I enjoyed being with 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:42.720 my friends and running around and playing that 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:47.300 sport. I've generally always just followed sports 00:07:47.300 --> 00:07:52.040 that I enjoy doing. Squash was another one that 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:56.300 I just found really enjoyable. There's a tactical 00:07:56.300 --> 00:07:58.839 nature to it, but it's fast -paced. Basically, 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:02.980 I've realized if I'm chasing a ball, I'll run 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:05.259 a lot, lot further than if I just go for a run. 00:08:05.379 --> 00:08:09.079 I actually don't enjoy running just for the sake 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:12.019 of it. But if you put me in a game situation, 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:16.939 I love it. I love it. I'm the same. I think this 00:08:16.939 --> 00:08:19.910 is why, and I've said this a lot recently, Mud 00:08:19.910 --> 00:08:22.050 runs, Spartan races, tough mudders, those kind 00:08:22.050 --> 00:08:24.050 of things, CrossFit, you know, with the handstands 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:26.689 and the ropes. I think it's less about murdering 00:08:26.689 --> 00:08:29.810 yourself, more about the community and the element 00:08:29.810 --> 00:08:31.389 of play. Because I couldn't climb a rope when 00:08:31.389 --> 00:08:33.330 I was a kid, and I can climb a rope now without 00:08:33.330 --> 00:08:36.570 my legs at 51 years old. So I think that's just 00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:38.450 it. You've got to put the enjoyment back into 00:08:38.450 --> 00:08:40.269 movement, and then you're not thinking about 00:08:40.269 --> 00:08:43.230 it as fitness anymore. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 00:08:44.460 --> 00:08:47.159 While we're on the subject, I just finished watching 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:49.700 the last season of Welcome to Wrexham. I don't 00:08:49.700 --> 00:08:52.799 know if you've seen that or not, but it was really 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.659 amazing because growing up, you know, I grew 00:08:55.659 --> 00:08:58.159 up in the, I'm a child of the 70s, so the 80s 00:08:58.159 --> 00:08:59.620 was kind of when I was really starting to see 00:08:59.620 --> 00:09:02.159 the world around us. That was when all the football 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.059 people were murdering each other at stands and 00:09:04.059 --> 00:09:06.179 pushing walls on top of each other and not, I 00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:09.759 would say, the glory days of football. So I didn't 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.539 really lean into supporting a side. And then 00:09:13.539 --> 00:09:15.960 fast forward even further. And now there's just 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.840 like billionaires buying these premier clubs 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.860 and no one from that club is even from that town. 00:09:21.460 --> 00:09:24.960 And so Wrexham really, really educated me on 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.419 what football is supposed to be about. And it's 00:09:27.419 --> 00:09:29.480 funny that two American actors, you know, buy 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:32.360 a Welsh club and educate an Englishman on the 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:36.019 sport that's native to his country. But in this 00:09:36.019 --> 00:09:39.080 world now that we're seeing tribalism be used 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.200 in a negative way and people pit against each 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.519 other. It really kind of reinforced the importance 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.639 of tribalism on the positive side and that community, 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:50.779 that kind of it takes a village mentality. What 00:09:50.779 --> 00:09:54.159 is your philosophy of that whole environment 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.340 where tribalism can be positive versus where 00:09:57.340 --> 00:10:02.100 it's actually used in a negative way? Big question. 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:08.720 So, yeah, I think it's a really interesting one 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.759 because football is... fascinating that way that 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:17.360 you it is tribal you you know you've got a team 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:19.860 you've got a color you've got a strip you've 00:10:19.860 --> 00:10:22.659 got all the identifiers that you have to create 00:10:22.659 --> 00:10:25.840 a group and then you have your in group are people 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:27.899 wearing the same color same strip as you and 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:30.179 your out group which is pretty much anyone else 00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:34.419 in any other team um and and you'll go along 00:10:34.419 --> 00:10:37.620 and then sit in a stadium separated and segregated 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:40.480 particularly in in the uk that's the case and 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.580 and much of europe but not necessarily everywhere 00:10:43.580 --> 00:10:46.120 and certainly not in all sports rugby is very 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.279 different and and just those two comparisons 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:52.460 even the football rugby one is a really interesting 00:10:52.460 --> 00:10:55.700 one where in rugby you just have everyone together 00:10:55.700 --> 00:11:00.179 regardless of who you support but i think in 00:11:00.179 --> 00:11:04.639 football you you can have sport allows that human 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:08.820 nature of tribalism an identity, an in -group 00:11:08.820 --> 00:11:14.559 versus out -group, to, I guess, expose itself 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:23.059 as our innate way of being. But what most of 00:11:23.059 --> 00:11:26.259 the time is a safe way to do it. And you can 00:11:26.259 --> 00:11:29.940 have colleagues and you support different teams 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:33.039 and you'll go in after the weekend and you'll 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.419 have banter about... the result of something 00:11:35.419 --> 00:11:40.379 or whatever. But it's at a level where you've 00:11:40.379 --> 00:11:44.299 got a respect for one another, even though you're 00:11:44.299 --> 00:11:46.720 in different groups or have different identities. 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:52.320 And that is, I think, a very positive foundation 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:59.299 for us to use what was probably an instinctual, 00:11:59.299 --> 00:12:01.320 you know, we're going to go back centuries, was 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.480 probably an instinctual protection mechanism. 00:12:04.029 --> 00:12:06.289 that you've got your urine group and don't trust 00:12:06.289 --> 00:12:08.710 anyone that's not in your in group because really 00:12:08.710 --> 00:12:11.230 they might be coming for your food or you know 00:12:11.230 --> 00:12:14.190 coming to kill you so you know i think we've 00:12:14.190 --> 00:12:16.669 had we've adapted that over centuries in our 00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:19.809 societies and sport provides that way for us 00:12:19.809 --> 00:12:23.710 to still expose it and and it to come out but 00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:26.870 in a safer environment when it's well managed 00:12:26.870 --> 00:12:31.289 um including the 70s you know certainly uh you 00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:33.769 know the english example it at times was spilling 00:12:33.769 --> 00:12:37.230 over and so that can happen it can get too much 00:12:37.230 --> 00:12:40.129 but on the whole if you look at sport generally 00:12:40.129 --> 00:12:43.149 it allows that to happen in a very safe environment 00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:46.110 and in a way that is now seen as entertainment 00:12:46.110 --> 00:12:49.789 in many cases rather than anything else but actually 00:12:49.789 --> 00:12:53.529 there's a lot of those very innate aspects of 00:12:53.529 --> 00:12:57.259 us as humans coming out within that I think what's 00:12:57.259 --> 00:12:59.960 interesting, one of my guests made this point. 00:13:00.580 --> 00:13:02.940 You can have two teams at each other's throats, 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:04.659 you know, whatever the kind of derby teams are. 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:08.879 And they air quotes hate each other. But then, 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.000 you know, they've joined the British team or 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:13.860 the English team, excuse me. And now we're all 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.779 cheering the same people on. And it's the same 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:17.860 thing, you know, back home, you're from rival 00:13:17.860 --> 00:13:20.600 towns or whatever, but then you go to Benidorm. 00:13:20.970 --> 00:13:22.710 And you meet someone in a hotel and, oh, you're 00:13:22.710 --> 00:13:24.330 from London? Yeah, I'm from London. All of a 00:13:24.330 --> 00:13:26.350 sudden, it's not, you know, Arsenal, Tottenham 00:13:26.350 --> 00:13:29.210 anymore. It's just two Londoners. So it's interesting 00:13:29.210 --> 00:13:32.090 how when you look a little bit more macro, the 00:13:32.090 --> 00:13:34.629 kind of negative side of that tribalism disappears. 00:13:34.830 --> 00:13:37.629 And now your tribalism becomes, you know, well, 00:13:37.690 --> 00:13:39.889 I'm English or I'm Scottish or I'm British or 00:13:39.889 --> 00:13:43.690 I'm European or whatever the thing is. So, I 00:13:43.690 --> 00:13:47.500 mean, it can be so, so positive. someone said 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:49.860 to me there's a difference between a civilian 00:13:49.860 --> 00:13:53.419 and a citizen and i think this is where there's 00:13:53.419 --> 00:13:54.899 you know that's the same thing as kind of patriot 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:57.879 versus you know nationalist you know you do do 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:00.399 you just live in a country or do you contribute 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:02.259 to that country and if you contribute to that 00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:04.779 country then i think you really feel the value 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:08.740 of that tribe yeah very nice way of putting it 00:14:08.740 --> 00:14:12.370 i like it yeah Well, you mentioned that driving 00:14:12.370 --> 00:14:15.110 safety wasn't your initial career aspiration. 00:14:15.129 --> 00:14:16.990 So when you were in school, what were you dreaming 00:14:16.990 --> 00:14:21.769 of becoming? Oh, I mean, at that time, it was 00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:24.990 football or Formula One driver. That was the 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:32.190 dreams. Yeah, I didn't have an academic desire, 00:14:32.389 --> 00:14:35.649 if I'm honest, as in a vision of where I was 00:14:35.649 --> 00:14:41.389 going. wanted to achieve and do well, but I didn't 00:14:41.389 --> 00:14:44.129 have a drive towards a particular topic or subject. 00:14:46.450 --> 00:14:51.389 Even falling into psychology as my degree when 00:14:51.389 --> 00:14:56.389 I went to university, that was somewhat a random 00:14:56.389 --> 00:15:00.629 choice. I hadn't done it as a topic. It just 00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:02.470 sounded interesting. I thought, I'll give that 00:15:02.470 --> 00:15:06.889 a go. Which isn't necessarily the best way of 00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:11.009 going about it, but I think we put a lot of pressure 00:15:11.009 --> 00:15:14.289 on young people to decide their future lives 00:15:14.289 --> 00:15:17.970 at a very young age. And when I was leaving school, 00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:20.070 I just didn't have that foresight to say what 00:15:20.070 --> 00:15:24.450 I really wanted to do. And so I just went with 00:15:24.450 --> 00:15:26.789 what I thought I might enjoy or what I'd find 00:15:26.789 --> 00:15:32.809 interesting. And that was it. And then that led 00:15:32.809 --> 00:15:37.730 me. um following you know after uni i went traveling 00:15:37.730 --> 00:15:40.590 for a couple of years just to enjoy seeing the 00:15:40.590 --> 00:15:47.669 world um and i i ended up taking a job as a psychology 00:15:47.669 --> 00:15:51.730 tutor at a university in new zealand um covering 00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:54.629 for somebody's maternity leave i have no idea 00:15:54.629 --> 00:15:57.289 why they they obviously couldn't find anyone 00:15:57.289 --> 00:16:01.490 else because i couldn't have been a very uh hugely 00:16:01.490 --> 00:16:04.159 qualified grant you know as a candidate other 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:06.860 than just being a psychology graduate of about 00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:11.840 a year but I enjoyed it and then when I eventually 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:16.360 came back to Scotland I ended up sort of lecturing 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:20.399 and psychology back at university and college 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:25.659 and in schools and then by chance got offered 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:29.639 an opportunity to do a PhD with a psychologist 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:36.679 who was a transport psychologist And I was, yeah, 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:42.200 I was fascinated. Because despite having done 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:46.879 a degree in psychology, I'd never really thought 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:51.600 about the application of it to driving or the 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:56.279 transport world. And this made me look into it. 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.440 And I was like, that's nuts. Everything about 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:04.779 transport. is the movement of goods or people. 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:09.759 That's all transport is. And ultimately, even 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:11.480 if you're moving goods, you need people to do 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:16.339 that. And so everything about transport is about 00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:19.220 people, but we just don't think of it in that 00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:24.720 way. And so it's still a niche subject, even 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.940 though I've realised there is a whole community 00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:30.680 of... similar -ish people to me around the world 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.740 but it's still a pretty niche subject and and 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:38.599 so yeah that I took that opportunity um it gave 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:43.900 me three years of funding to do a PhD and I albeit 00:17:43.900 --> 00:17:47.400 he didn't have a topic he just said there's some 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.960 funding do what you like and he was a great guy 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:54.180 a great professor But he was very much, you go 00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:57.599 and work it out. You do it for yourself. So that 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.539 first year, I just spent reading and reading 00:18:02.539 --> 00:18:06.640 and reading. And I went down many different paths 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.200 of potential topics to choose for the PhD and 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:15.119 focus on. One I was close to doing was the fact 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:22.029 that most in the military, probably the greatest 00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:25.250 risk of death for them is not to do with combat. 00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:28.029 It's actually going off duty and driving home. 00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:31.369 It's the moment that they're at their greatest 00:18:31.369 --> 00:18:38.009 risk. And that fascinated me. I almost went down 00:18:38.009 --> 00:18:44.519 that pathway. In the end, I focused on... Just 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:48.519 what I saw as a pattern, we call it the novice 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:53.920 driver problem. And so in every jurisdiction 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:59.859 you look at, we train people to become drivers. 00:18:59.859 --> 00:19:01.980 We train them, they take a test and they get 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:05.779 their license. And at that point of licensure, 00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:08.160 you're basically giving them a certificate to 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.579 say, you're good enough to drive on our roads. 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:19.630 freely, on your own, right? Unrestricted. But 00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:22.849 at that very point, they are at the greatest 00:19:22.849 --> 00:19:27.130 risk of having a crash that they will ever be 00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:32.289 for the rest of their career as a driver. I say 00:19:32.289 --> 00:19:36.609 career, not literally as in that's the job, just 00:19:36.609 --> 00:19:38.609 as in they've got a license and they'll probably 00:19:38.609 --> 00:19:41.089 drive for the rest of their life. And at that 00:19:41.089 --> 00:19:43.630 point, they're at such... elevated risk it's 00:19:43.630 --> 00:19:47.549 untrue and then a really interesting thing happens 00:19:47.549 --> 00:19:53.009 that over the next six to twelve months their 00:19:53.009 --> 00:19:58.710 level of risk comes down rapidly and then it 00:19:58.710 --> 00:20:00.569 sort of starts to tail off over the next two 00:20:00.569 --> 00:20:02.750 to three years and by by sort of three years 00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:04.970 of following drive getting your license you're 00:20:04.970 --> 00:20:06.950 at a level of risk you'll probably be at for 00:20:06.950 --> 00:20:12.190 most of your life right And every chart I looked 00:20:12.190 --> 00:20:15.910 at for every country that produced the data, 00:20:16.069 --> 00:20:20.289 it looked the same. It's exactly the same. That's 00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:24.809 regardless of the type of training, learning 00:20:24.809 --> 00:20:29.089 required, the type of test required, or what 00:20:29.089 --> 00:20:32.730 happens post -test. And you see the same pattern. 00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:36.769 And so you have a license. Young people usually 00:20:36.769 --> 00:20:41.259 making up like, you know, seven to 10 % of the 00:20:41.259 --> 00:20:44.279 driving population, but they'll be involved in 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.259 about a quarter of all the fatal crashes, right? 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:51.279 So they're overrepresented. But you see a very 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:56.759 similar figure in every country. And so my thinking, 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:01.859 well, the question I asked was, what on earth 00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:07.000 are people learning in that first six to 12 months 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.400 that makes them become safer? Because they are 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:13.339 under no tuition. They're not learning from anyone. 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:15.880 We're not giving them education or training. 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:19.279 They are learning themselves. And that was the 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.599 question I asked. I don't know if you want me 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:26.819 to answer it. I do. I'm waiting with bated breath. 00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:30.960 I'm on the edge of my seat. There's not many 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:32.240 people who have been on the edge of their seat 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:34.579 to hear about my PhD, I'll be honest. I'm a bit 00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:42.220 of a weirdo, so there we go. In short, I'll not 00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:47.359 take you through the whole thing, but in short, 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:53.359 what I brought together were theories from the 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.160 field of neuroscience, the field of decision 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.539 -making, and the field of risk and judgment, 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:03.460 as well as, obviously, driver behavior theory. 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.180 But you can bring those in, and what you realize 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:12.950 is that Driver behavior is in one way exceptionally 00:22:12.950 --> 00:22:17.849 simple. We can only do two things when we're 00:22:17.849 --> 00:22:22.730 driving to affect the vehicle, and that is alter 00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:27.150 the speed and change the direction. So driving 00:22:27.150 --> 00:22:28.650 is really simple. We're only doing two things. 00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:33.869 But in reality, it's a really complex task. Mentally, 00:22:33.950 --> 00:22:37.720 we're taking in information at a speed. that 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.180 we never evolved to travel at, right? We evolved 00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:44.720 running. That was as fast as we got. Then possibly 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.559 on horseback, but that's actually quite late 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.299 on in our development. So really, you know, driving 00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:53.220 at the speeds we do, information is flowing at 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:57.319 us at some rate. And when we do that, we have 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:02.259 to find ways of managing the amount of information 00:23:02.259 --> 00:23:05.039 flow that's coming to us. which is demanding 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:08.460 for our minds, right? And so we have to work 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:10.299 out what's important in our scene and what's 00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:15.240 not. And so you can start to see through theory, 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.119 the theory in neuroscience and our decision -making 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.779 theory, and particularly, you know, a lot of 00:23:20.779 --> 00:23:24.380 this you've now seen published in popular psychology 00:23:24.380 --> 00:23:27.839 books that have become very famous, like, you 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.839 know, Blink and things like that. And, you know, 00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:35.029 where... In decision making, we've sort of got 00:23:35.029 --> 00:23:38.569 two ways of processing that and risk. We've got 00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:41.009 two ways of processing the sort of intuitive 00:23:41.009 --> 00:23:45.930 way that's really fast and quick. And then you've 00:23:45.930 --> 00:23:49.690 got the more deliberative way where we compare 00:23:49.690 --> 00:23:51.630 things against each other and work out what's 00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:54.630 best. now it's very clear we can't do that when 00:23:54.630 --> 00:23:57.470 driving at speed so we have to rely on our intuitive 00:23:57.470 --> 00:24:00.750 approach and and so that means we're using a 00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:03.009 certain part of our processing for decision making 00:24:03.009 --> 00:24:06.190 and then what you realize from neuroscience theory 00:24:06.190 --> 00:24:09.170 that's come about is that all that computational 00:24:09.170 --> 00:24:12.069 type theory that we went through in the 60s and 00:24:12.069 --> 00:24:16.930 70s um that turned us into almost robots and 00:24:16.930 --> 00:24:20.210 uh and and made things made it seem like we were 00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:22.779 all our brains just worked by one thing to the 00:24:22.779 --> 00:24:26.759 next like um like we think of i guess ai now 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:31.660 um it's just not true we have a mind and a body 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:34.299 for a reason and it's because our bodies feel 00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:36.180 things and provide our mind with information 00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:40.240 about our environment and when those two things 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:45.299 come together our feelings influence and affect 00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:49.460 our judgment and The way that works in decision 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:52.119 -making is it biases us to what we decide to 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:55.259 do next. So it doesn't decide for us, but it 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.119 will bias your mind into what you then decide 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:01.599 to do behaviorally, which people in marketing 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:04.319 have known for years, and hence they spend so 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.299 much on branding, because when you're in an aisle 00:25:07.299 --> 00:25:12.539 full of options, the easiest bias you have is 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:16.579 to go for something you know or trust. And it's 00:25:16.579 --> 00:25:19.089 the same thing. We do this in our environment. 00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:22.250 We will make a choice that seems like the most 00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:27.250 beneficial to us, to protect us. And so what 00:25:27.250 --> 00:25:30.529 I realized with driving is that we're having 00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:33.890 to make a decision constantly. We are in a constant 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:36.329 loop. We don't realize it because most of this 00:25:36.329 --> 00:25:40.109 is non -conscious. You don't think about driving 00:25:40.109 --> 00:25:41.930 and make a decision every second. I'm going to 00:25:41.930 --> 00:25:43.609 change my speed. I'm going to lift off the accelerator 00:25:43.609 --> 00:25:46.369 a little bit. I'm going to whatever. But actually, 00:25:46.390 --> 00:25:48.690 if you track the pressure on the accelerator 00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:52.789 pedal or the gas pedal over a short period of 00:25:52.789 --> 00:25:55.390 time, you realize that it shifts quite a lot. 00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:58.630 We just don't realize we're doing it. And so 00:25:58.630 --> 00:26:01.730 we are moderating the amount of demand coming 00:26:01.730 --> 00:26:04.470 into our brains at any one point. It's the same 00:26:04.470 --> 00:26:06.650 thing that affects you when you take on another 00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:08.690 task, like you start a mobile phone call whilst 00:26:08.690 --> 00:26:11.910 driving. You will likely end up slowing down 00:26:11.910 --> 00:26:14.769 so that you can manage the demand in your environment, 00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:17.869 right? That's typically what happens. And we've 00:26:17.869 --> 00:26:21.109 all seen that person on the highway and they're 00:26:21.109 --> 00:26:23.049 driving slow. And then two minutes later, they're 00:26:23.049 --> 00:26:24.450 flying past you because they've finished the 00:26:24.450 --> 00:26:30.150 phone call. And so bringing this back together, 00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:37.789 what I realized is that what we learn in that 00:26:37.789 --> 00:26:41.769 early period of driving through experience is 00:26:41.769 --> 00:26:45.380 to identify. what in our environment matters, 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.180 i .e. what do I need to anticipate or what cues 00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:52.500 in my environment come together, converge, to 00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:54.720 let me understand there's potential risk ahead. 00:26:55.099 --> 00:26:59.240 But if I don't act now, as in that might be just 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:03.259 changing your speed a little bit, and what that 00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:06.619 does is negate your path where you are coming 00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:09.140 into conflict with a vehicle coming on an on 00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:13.420 -ramp, for example. And what you see from learner 00:27:13.420 --> 00:27:16.299 drivers or novice drivers is they will continue 00:27:16.299 --> 00:27:19.680 at the same speed in that conflict path. They 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.799 will get to the point where that vehicle then 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:24.039 comes onto the highway and they have to slam 00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:26.579 on the brake at the last minute. Usually they'll 00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:29.559 get away with it. But if other factors are in 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:31.720 play, like maybe they're on their phone or they're 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.000 distracted or whatever, then they're more likely 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:35.980 to be involved in a crash because they've got 00:27:35.980 --> 00:27:38.140 themselves into a situation where they need to 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:41.650 take a reactive response. What experienced drivers 00:27:41.650 --> 00:27:45.970 most of the time do is we just slightly change 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:48.670 our speed and we remove that conflict path altogether. 00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:51.349 And so we avoid getting into those situations. 00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:55.269 And so I demonstrated this in the laboratory 00:27:55.269 --> 00:27:57.309 while people watched hazard perception clips 00:27:57.309 --> 00:28:01.210 and I had them hooked up to skin conductance 00:28:01.210 --> 00:28:03.950 responses to get their background physiology 00:28:03.950 --> 00:28:10.299 and identified that basically you know there's 00:28:10.299 --> 00:28:12.859 a learning curve that starts to happen that that 00:28:12.859 --> 00:28:15.619 experienced drivers are showing physiological 00:28:15.619 --> 00:28:20.019 responses well in advance of any of a hazard 00:28:20.019 --> 00:28:22.660 happening in an what i called an anticipatory 00:28:22.660 --> 00:28:25.400 period so not a reactive period but an anticipatory 00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:28.920 period and learner drivers literally didn't show 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.359 any response at all in this period they just 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:34.440 didn't have it and novice drivers were responding 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:37.039 to some scenes but not others so they were sort 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:40.859 of part of the way up And that depends on how 00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:43.980 much experience they reported they'd driven. 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:46.799 So those that had more than 1 ,000 miles showed 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.240 that they were on a pathway on this learning 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:54.019 curve. And so it's really critical that people 00:28:54.019 --> 00:28:57.460 get this experience, but we try and help them 00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.079 do that in the safest way possible. That was 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:06.690 sort of the outcome of all this. No, it did. 00:29:06.789 --> 00:29:09.109 It did completely. It's fascinating. I've never 00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:11.210 heard that explained before, but it does make 00:29:11.210 --> 00:29:14.690 so much sense, especially I love to go back in 00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:18.829 our evolution and apply principles and say, does 00:29:18.829 --> 00:29:21.670 that make sense? A thousand years ago as a human 00:29:21.670 --> 00:29:24.910 being. So the carnivore diet definitely works 00:29:24.910 --> 00:29:26.950 for some people. You're removing processed food, 00:29:27.009 --> 00:29:28.710 which I would argue is probably the most powerful 00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:31.450 part. But a thousand years ago, we were able 00:29:31.450 --> 00:29:34.000 to eat meat three, four times a day. I highly 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:36.759 doubt it. So that's where I kind of hold the 00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.740 blueprint. But what you're talking about, that 00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:42.240 amount of information that you're getting as 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.279 a driver, 70, 80 miles an hour on a motorway, 00:29:45.380 --> 00:29:48.039 with all the cars changing lanes and the weather 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.920 and the change in light and things stopped on 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:53.680 the side of the road. I mean, it is an insane 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.680 amount of information that we're trying to process. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:59.220 And as we sit here, I'm going to knock on wood 00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:02.819 now. I haven't had an accident yet, but... I 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:05.240 grew up on a farm. I was so lucky to be driving 00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.700 for a long time. So probably kind of adjusted 00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:11.920 that curve slightly just by all the things that 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:13.460 I would have been driving along in the farm. 00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:17.559 But what's interesting, what I want to ask you, 00:30:17.619 --> 00:30:25.119 you saw this same curve. The result, was that 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:27.319 dependent on how well they were trained though? 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:29.480 You had the same shape, but if you have much 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.130 higher driving standards, did that... that flattening 00:30:33.130 --> 00:30:35.369 out end up at a higher level than somewhere like 00:30:35.369 --> 00:30:41.750 the US where the standards are very low? So it's 00:30:41.750 --> 00:30:43.410 a good question, and it's a really difficult 00:30:43.410 --> 00:30:50.369 one to answer. Partly because you're seeing these 00:30:50.369 --> 00:30:54.630 data at a population level, and it's hiding a 00:30:54.630 --> 00:30:59.029 lot of the nuance of what's going on and how 00:30:59.029 --> 00:31:01.650 people are. trained and learning and it's it's 00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:04.849 showing you just the large large generalized 00:31:04.849 --> 00:31:14.190 effects um and so the impact of training and 00:31:14.190 --> 00:31:19.690 education um has i mean it's constantly debated 00:31:19.690 --> 00:31:26.230 constantly and you you would fully expect that 00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:30.400 there has to be some impact of the quality of 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:34.099 education and training that somebody gets over 00:31:34.099 --> 00:31:38.319 the outcomes that you would expect them to achieve 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:44.740 that said quite often in the published scientific 00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:50.259 literature review after review particularly for 00:31:50.259 --> 00:31:55.319 education finds that it has very well almost 00:31:55.319 --> 00:32:00.940 none no effect on on safety um outcomes like 00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:05.779 crashes maybe a minimal effect but we'll come 00:32:05.779 --> 00:32:07.700 back to that in a second um because there may 00:32:07.700 --> 00:32:10.579 be people going whoa hold on a second right but 00:32:10.579 --> 00:32:13.700 ultimately you know education if you just take 00:32:13.700 --> 00:32:16.339 that as an intervention to improve safety it 00:32:16.339 --> 00:32:19.920 doesn't show that it has an effect the quality 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:24.720 of training as i say i think if you look in professional 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.829 areas you know you there's probably good examples 00:32:28.829 --> 00:32:31.470 of where good quality training versus bad quality 00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:34.549 training is beneficial for the outcomes that 00:32:34.549 --> 00:32:37.210 you're looking for and you would have you'd expect 00:32:37.210 --> 00:32:42.609 that in driving too but what seems to it it seemed 00:32:42.609 --> 00:32:46.349 really hard to distinguish what is good quality 00:32:46.349 --> 00:32:48.130 training versus what is low quality training 00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:50.869 and in any country you probably have a mix of 00:32:50.869 --> 00:32:56.049 all so even in the uk you will have you know 00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:59.240 driving instructors that are really good and 00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:02.740 focused on how you're not just passing the test 00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:06.099 they're focused on how you will learn to be a 00:33:06.099 --> 00:33:09.119 driver beyond your test and how you will behave 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:11.240 beyond the test and they will take you into places 00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:13.660 that you don't need to necessarily learn to pass 00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:16.380 the test but they'll take you to places and prepare 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:20.900 you for post -test but not all instructors will 00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:23.000 do that a lot of instructors will just train 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:25.470 you to pass a test which is a skills largely 00:33:25.470 --> 00:33:28.690 a skills -based test it's not the skills you 00:33:28.690 --> 00:33:31.470 can learn the skills to drive a motor vehicle 00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:36.710 really quickly really easily um and yet that's 00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:39.630 what most tests in most countries focus on and 00:33:39.630 --> 00:33:43.809 so they're just not preparing people for post 00:33:43.809 --> 00:33:49.329 -test solo driving um and i think the differences 00:33:49.329 --> 00:33:52.910 that you might be referring to in terms of you 00:33:52.910 --> 00:33:56.589 know heightened us crash rates versus other developed 00:33:56.589 --> 00:34:01.250 countries. For me, this comes down to a much 00:34:01.250 --> 00:34:05.150 broader issue, which I would sort of term the 00:34:05.150 --> 00:34:10.150 road safety culture and the culture and perspective 00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:17.530 on basically on the trauma on the roads. And 00:34:17.530 --> 00:34:19.889 I deliberately use the word trauma because that's 00:34:19.889 --> 00:34:27.340 what it is. When you break it down, like if you 00:34:27.340 --> 00:34:31.460 look at it from a different perspective, which 00:34:31.460 --> 00:34:35.880 people don't tend to do, when you do, you know, 00:34:35.900 --> 00:34:38.420 I think it's something like every 13 minutes 00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:42.519 someone is killed on the roads in the US. Every 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.940 13 seconds someone is injured on the roads in 00:34:45.940 --> 00:34:50.480 the US. And this is reported stuff, right? Now, 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:57.019 if you... That's roughly 110 people dying a day 00:34:57.019 --> 00:35:04.179 in the US. So, you know, if you put that in any 00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:08.300 other transport mode, like imagine five domestic 00:35:08.300 --> 00:35:13.360 airliners coming down each week, killing everyone 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:16.460 on board. What would the reaction to that be? 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:22.360 Very different. Very different, right? and yet 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:27.719 trauma on the road is just accepted and in a 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:32.400 very bizarre way like that that's a strange mindset 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:35.440 that we have that accepts that level of trauma 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:39.699 to continue year after year um you know it is 00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:46.440 it's consistent and what really gets me like 00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:53.030 fascinated by this and you know is the fact that 00:35:53.030 --> 00:36:00.309 society doesn't challenge it more and those in 00:36:00.309 --> 00:36:04.150 charge don't challenge it more if it was something 00:36:04.150 --> 00:36:06.730 else i feel like it would be challenged but for 00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:08.590 some reason it's accepted and i don't really 00:36:08.590 --> 00:36:13.769 understand why and from the perspective of like 00:36:13.769 --> 00:36:17.269 yourself i i've often thought you know i work 00:36:17.269 --> 00:36:20.639 a lot with first responders in this country. 00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:24.619 I spent time as a collision investigator in the 00:36:24.619 --> 00:36:30.619 UK and attended live crash scenes and occasionally 00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:34.340 was first on scene because we were in a vehicle 00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:38.460 and would hear of a crash and location and we 00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:40.260 would head there and sometimes we were the first 00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:45.699 there. So I've had minimal experience of this 00:36:45.699 --> 00:36:48.110 compared to probably the likes of yourselves 00:36:48.110 --> 00:36:55.010 and others listening but if we just look at it 00:36:55.010 --> 00:37:00.590 from their perspective on that every 13 seconds 00:37:00.590 --> 00:37:03.730 there's a crash where someone's injured there's 00:37:03.730 --> 00:37:08.849 a first responder attending that right and every 00:37:08.849 --> 00:37:13.730 13 minutes someone's dead that's traumatic to 00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:18.559 turn up to That's traumatic to deal with. And 00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:22.780 it's also massively expensive to society in many, 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.760 many different ways. And I think one estimate 00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:28.300 in the US was like 1 .4 trillion in the cost 00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:31.079 of all of this when you take into account lost 00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.079 income and, you know, emergency services, work, 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:39.639 health care, etc. It's huge. And it staggers 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:44.550 me that you can have this size of trauma. The 00:37:44.550 --> 00:37:48.210 impact on the cost to society at a financial 00:37:48.210 --> 00:37:52.530 level, the impact on families and communities 00:37:52.530 --> 00:37:58.750 that continues year after year, and yet the road 00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:04.050 safety culture doesn't seem to evolve in its 00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:07.110 common narrative. And that's the bit that needs 00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:09.650 to change. I'm aware of the road safety community, 00:38:09.769 --> 00:38:12.170 and there's a very strong road safety community 00:38:12.170 --> 00:38:15.519 in the US. um that is doing a lot of leading 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:21.219 work but that narrative doesn't it struggles 00:38:21.219 --> 00:38:23.480 to get into the the common everyday narrative 00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:25.500 or even the political narrative a lot of the 00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:29.340 time this is what really blew me away and we 00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:31.460 were talking about this before we hit record 00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:34.900 but when i looked at the statistics we lose that 00:38:34.900 --> 00:38:38.199 the numbers that you gave us is 40 000 americans 00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:41.920 every year that die actually die um hundreds 00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:44.420 of thousands probably with life -changing injuries 00:38:44.420 --> 00:38:46.699 and i think if my memory serves me right it was 00:38:46.699 --> 00:38:50.360 either six or eight million accidents so kind 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.500 of as you're alluding to let's say it's not even 00:38:53.150 --> 00:38:55.789 a terrible crash but it's one where again poor 00:38:55.789 --> 00:38:58.469 driving has contributed to you know one two three 00:38:58.469 --> 00:39:00.809 vehicles now you've blocked an entire motorway 00:39:00.809 --> 00:39:03.829 or freeway or whatever it is now all those people 00:39:03.829 --> 00:39:05.750 are late to work all those goods that are supposed 00:39:05.750 --> 00:39:08.170 to be delivered are being held up not to mention 00:39:08.170 --> 00:39:10.869 as you said the the the impact of the people 00:39:10.869 --> 00:39:13.730 in their cars and the responders you know that's 00:39:13.730 --> 00:39:17.349 for every single accident but you know just to 00:39:17.349 --> 00:39:20.369 kind of give you a back story so i i did uh my 00:39:20.369 --> 00:39:24.570 driving test back when it was um yeah i'm sure 00:39:24.570 --> 00:39:26.750 it's probably the same but back then most people 00:39:26.750 --> 00:39:28.670 usually took two or three times to even pass 00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:30.750 it it was very you know very very hard and the 00:39:30.750 --> 00:39:32.489 british roads are very dangerous you know i grew 00:39:32.489 --> 00:39:34.489 up in the west country and it's all lanes and 00:39:34.489 --> 00:39:36.469 you know there's no medians in between you know 00:39:36.469 --> 00:39:39.409 it's just two -way roads um you know wet and 00:39:39.409 --> 00:39:41.849 gray and miserable all the time so the lighting 00:39:41.849 --> 00:39:43.550 isn't good the road safety you know the road 00:39:43.550 --> 00:39:46.469 conditions aren't good Um, and we were held to 00:39:46.469 --> 00:39:48.650 a very high standard. I was very fortunate. Like 00:39:48.650 --> 00:39:51.369 I said, I drove a lot on the farm, took a load 00:39:51.369 --> 00:39:54.349 of driving lessons, passed the test. As you said, 00:39:54.429 --> 00:39:56.110 I took, I think it was at least one or two more 00:39:56.110 --> 00:39:58.630 now learning how to drive on the motorway because 00:39:58.630 --> 00:40:00.070 you can't drive on the motorway when you're a 00:40:00.070 --> 00:40:01.650 learner driver in England that we couldn't then. 00:40:02.210 --> 00:40:05.929 So that post -test trading as well. Now, fast 00:40:05.929 --> 00:40:08.050 forward a couple of decades, I moved to not a 00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:09.590 couple of decades, sorry, a decade. Now I moved 00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:14.380 to America. I land in Florida, go to the DMV, 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:18.320 get in the car, do some, you know, driving around 00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:20.539 a car park, drive around some local roads, come 00:40:20.539 --> 00:40:21.940 back. And I'm like, OK, that must be kind of 00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:23.940 like the warm up. And then they say, congratulations, 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.400 you passed. And then I didn't really think much 00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:29.539 of it otherwise other than, OK, that was easy. 00:40:29.619 --> 00:40:32.840 Good. But then I go into my career, see hundreds 00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:36.420 of, you know, of wrecks, many of whom are very 00:40:36.420 --> 00:40:39.849 badly injured or killed. And then I start thinking, 00:40:39.969 --> 00:40:42.289 OK, well, this is one of the issues. Now, my 00:40:42.289 --> 00:40:45.170 son, how old is he now? 18. So two years ago, 00:40:45.269 --> 00:40:49.550 took his test and I watched him do the exact 00:40:49.550 --> 00:40:54.469 same test. And we're talking, you know, 20, basically 00:40:54.469 --> 00:40:57.050 20 years later, two more decades after that first 00:40:57.050 --> 00:41:00.090 one. And so this is where, you know, I'm really 00:41:00.090 --> 00:41:02.289 curious about that standard. I think what you're 00:41:02.289 --> 00:41:05.179 talking about. It needs to be a big part of the 00:41:05.179 --> 00:41:07.159 conversations. We give them this, you know, license 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.400 to drive a death trap. You know, where is that 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:11.800 post -training and that, you know, the ability 00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:14.800 to flatten that curve a little bit. But the contrast 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:19.000 between America and Britain's driving test, you 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:21.940 know, Britain, you're a year older as well. And 00:41:21.940 --> 00:41:24.039 the fact that if I'm understanding it correctly, 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:28.000 per capita, we have 10 times more deaths per 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:31.059 capita than we do in the UK. I think there's 00:41:31.059 --> 00:41:33.849 a lot. a lot to that as well. I think when you 00:41:33.849 --> 00:41:37.989 barely educate to the point where very few people 00:41:37.989 --> 00:41:40.570 use their blinkers, very few people understand 00:41:40.570 --> 00:41:43.469 why you put distance between you and the other 00:41:43.469 --> 00:41:46.289 person, very few people understand to stay in 00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:48.809 the inside lane unless you're passing on a motorway. 00:41:48.889 --> 00:41:51.050 And so you have these frustrated drivers trying 00:41:51.050 --> 00:41:53.170 to get past these three that are side by side. 00:41:53.510 --> 00:41:56.349 As a first responder, I can see these contributing 00:41:56.349 --> 00:41:59.909 factors. But as you said, in 22 years of living 00:41:59.909 --> 00:42:04.559 in this country, I've seen zero, zero conversation 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:08.539 on addressing anything proactively to save these 00:42:08.539 --> 00:42:11.019 tens of thousands of lives that we lose each 00:42:11.019 --> 00:42:19.260 year. Yeah. And the sad thing about it is that 00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:23.579 these are preventable, right? This is a man -made 00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:29.300 system. And so we've created this transport system. 00:42:30.849 --> 00:42:34.489 And if you go into other transport systems, like 00:42:34.489 --> 00:42:39.489 air or rail, also man -made, but their approach 00:42:39.489 --> 00:42:42.289 to injury and death on these systems is very 00:42:42.289 --> 00:42:45.949 different. When something happens, okay, there's 00:42:45.949 --> 00:42:48.730 a really significant investigation to understand 00:42:48.730 --> 00:42:51.670 why that happened. Where was the failure in the 00:42:51.670 --> 00:42:54.690 chain of events? What are we going to do to put 00:42:54.690 --> 00:42:57.969 in place so this never happens again? And so... 00:42:59.550 --> 00:43:03.090 Look, eliminating all risk is really challenging, 00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:07.869 and particularly on the roads where, look, it's 00:43:07.869 --> 00:43:09.530 very different to those other transport systems. 00:43:09.710 --> 00:43:12.789 You don't just have the odd operator. You have 00:43:12.789 --> 00:43:16.630 many operators, and they're all human, which 00:43:16.630 --> 00:43:19.449 means they're all fallible, and they will all 00:43:19.449 --> 00:43:23.190 make errors. They will all be doing some stupid 00:43:23.190 --> 00:43:26.429 things at different times, and they all come 00:43:26.429 --> 00:43:28.130 from different backgrounds, have different... 00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:31.000 different training, different experiences, and 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:37.199 different attitudes. And so it's a dynamic risk 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:41.579 system that's very hard to manage. So you are 00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:46.019 always fighting risk within that system. And 00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:49.619 it's how much effort do you want to put in to 00:43:49.619 --> 00:43:52.380 manage that risk? Because if you want to, you 00:43:52.380 --> 00:43:55.280 can really reduce it. You can reduce it significantly. 00:43:56.199 --> 00:44:00.909 But the truth is, we don't. There's either not 00:44:00.909 --> 00:44:04.050 some, I don't know what's missing, what the exact 00:44:04.050 --> 00:44:07.309 ingredient is, but there's a will to make a difference 00:44:07.309 --> 00:44:10.849 that doesn't exist, whether that be from a political 00:44:10.849 --> 00:44:14.070 perspective or a financial one or a societal 00:44:14.070 --> 00:44:18.489 one. But we seem to accept the level of trauma 00:44:18.489 --> 00:44:22.210 that occurs as what we pay for that mobility 00:44:22.210 --> 00:44:25.530 and freedom. But there are things we know we 00:44:25.530 --> 00:44:30.039 can do. One is managing speeds better, right? 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:34.320 And I want to say the obvious one that always 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:36.800 gets touted, which is, well, we build cars that 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.179 can go twice the speed limit, the maximum speed 00:44:40.179 --> 00:44:43.639 limit. Well, that's not necessary in that system, 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:47.659 but we do it and we allow it. That's okay, right? 00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:50.079 I don't want to step on that freedom because 00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:55.119 people like that. But we could have in place 00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.579 a better... training and licensing, for example. 00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:03.260 You mentioned the test. Tests are actually a 00:45:03.260 --> 00:45:05.539 really poor predictor of future driving behavior 00:45:05.539 --> 00:45:11.340 generally, even in the UK. But what it does do, 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:13.460 and what you've highlighted there, is the difference 00:45:13.460 --> 00:45:16.139 between the level you need to pass the test, 00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:20.400 which means you set the bar for what people will 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.460 then work up to. And if the test is really easy, 00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:26.050 then people don't put in the effort. because 00:45:26.050 --> 00:45:28.190 they don't need to, right? A test is always just 00:45:28.190 --> 00:45:30.349 seen as, what do I need to do to pass this? That's 00:45:30.349 --> 00:45:33.710 always the way. And if the bar is quite low, 00:45:33.789 --> 00:45:36.969 then you will see a low level of effort. So in 00:45:36.969 --> 00:45:40.610 the UK, you have a hazard perception test and 00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:44.050 a theory test and the actual driving on the road 00:45:44.050 --> 00:45:46.409 test, which has been strengthened over the last 00:45:46.409 --> 00:45:50.289 few years. So it's a reasonable bar. And what 00:45:50.289 --> 00:45:53.150 we have seen is that each time you change that, 00:45:55.880 --> 00:45:58.659 change the way that they train to adapt to the 00:45:58.659 --> 00:46:01.900 test so the test is a powerful implement in getting 00:46:01.900 --> 00:46:05.360 people to to train more and get more experience 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:08.539 and particularly in certain ways and what we 00:46:08.539 --> 00:46:10.679 know is the the more experience you have in that 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.099 learner phase and the more varied experience 00:46:13.099 --> 00:46:16.159 so you've driven on high speed roads you've driven 00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:19.960 um at night you're driven in bad weather you're 00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:22.599 getting lots of varied experience And you're 00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:24.400 driving people in the car. But ultimately, you're 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:27.179 doing it all with someone beside you that you 00:46:27.179 --> 00:46:31.280 trust and can guide you if you're doing something 00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:34.360 a bit wrong. But the more you have of that, the 00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:37.000 safer you are after your test. And so we want 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:40.659 to encourage that. And then after the test, we 00:46:40.659 --> 00:46:43.340 know the situations that are risky. We know it's 00:46:43.340 --> 00:46:47.059 usually when a young person is driving with their 00:46:47.059 --> 00:46:50.489 similar age friends in the car. We know that 00:46:50.489 --> 00:46:53.130 driving at night is much more risky for this 00:46:53.130 --> 00:46:55.909 age group, largely because that's when they socialize. 00:46:55.989 --> 00:46:58.469 That's when the roads are empty. But it's also 00:46:58.469 --> 00:47:01.590 when, perceptually, it's much trickier to drive. 00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:06.730 And often they can be driving on faster rural 00:47:06.730 --> 00:47:08.550 roads that don't have much of a safety margin. 00:47:09.550 --> 00:47:13.170 And so it's a powerful contributor to the risk 00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:16.550 in that situation. And that's why in the US you 00:47:16.550 --> 00:47:19.400 have graduated driver licenses that... aim to 00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:24.139 just protect these two known bits of risk for 00:47:24.139 --> 00:47:26.320 the first six months of driving, for example. 00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:30.639 But I think that only applies in many states 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:33.159 until someone is 18. And after 18, they don't 00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:37.760 have to do that bit, which is problematic. So 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:41.159 we know how to manage that level of risk. And 00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:44.139 there's many other ways to manage risk. You could 00:47:44.139 --> 00:47:49.320 use telematics. We did a study of using telematics 00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:52.699 to understand driving behavior as a form of licensing 00:47:52.699 --> 00:47:56.199 rather than a one -off test, which just tells 00:47:56.199 --> 00:47:59.000 you how someone performs in a moment. Well, let's 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.420 look at their driving style over time. If you 00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:03.300 can demonstrate you're a good driver over time, 00:48:03.500 --> 00:48:06.460 we can give you feedback. We can help you and 00:48:06.460 --> 00:48:11.900 guide you and make you a good driver. And that 00:48:11.900 --> 00:48:14.590 will be something that will be longer term. We 00:48:14.590 --> 00:48:18.190 help you with your habits and your formation. 00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:25.550 We need to change the view that this is a driver 00:48:25.550 --> 00:48:29.409 problem. This is a system problem. And drivers 00:48:29.409 --> 00:48:32.289 will make mistakes. Drivers will do things wrong. 00:48:32.610 --> 00:48:37.510 And we are all vulnerable as humans to being 00:48:37.510 --> 00:48:41.530 killed because we can only withstand so much 00:48:41.530 --> 00:48:46.219 force. the perspective of the safe system comes 00:48:46.219 --> 00:48:49.940 into play, which is an international approach 00:48:49.940 --> 00:48:53.659 to changing the way we see road safety. And I 00:48:53.659 --> 00:48:56.340 know that in some states this is being adopted 00:48:56.340 --> 00:49:00.519 and the road safety community in the US has put 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:04.599 this forward as well. But really, that's where 00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:07.400 this needs to go. We need to see this as a system 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:09.440 problem and it needs everyone to play a part 00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:11.500 in that, from the driver all the way up to those 00:49:11.500 --> 00:49:16.630 who manage. and manage the roads and the infrastructure 00:49:16.630 --> 00:49:20.409 and the vehicles. When you look at the entire 00:49:20.409 --> 00:49:23.010 planet, which countries would you hold up as 00:49:23.010 --> 00:49:29.030 an example for other countries to follow? Well, 00:49:29.269 --> 00:49:32.789 you've got some of your Scandinavian countries 00:49:32.789 --> 00:49:38.429 that have very good safety records, like Norway 00:49:38.429 --> 00:49:43.380 and Denmark. They have cities where there's been 00:49:43.380 --> 00:49:46.179 no fatality in over a year sort of thing because 00:49:46.179 --> 00:49:49.199 they've managed risk so well. And that's largely 00:49:49.199 --> 00:49:53.300 around managing risk around speed on roads around 00:49:53.300 --> 00:49:56.159 the city. So if you're managing a city, whenever 00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.739 you've got people and pathways towards, say, 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:03.659 a school or somewhere for education, then you 00:50:03.659 --> 00:50:06.039 know there's going to be young people. We move 00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.380 to the middle lane knowing that cars will be 00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:10.199 merging in. When they kind of pass, they'll come 00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:13.400 back over to the right lane. If people are walking, 00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:15.420 they see they're about to get to a zebra crossing. 00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:19.340 The car will stop. Pedestrian will say thank 00:50:19.340 --> 00:50:21.360 you. The driver will wave back, and then everyone 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:23.760 goes. It's a real feeling of sharing the road. 00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:29.539 Here, and I live in Florida. It's a fight. It's 00:50:29.539 --> 00:50:31.719 like Mad Max on the road a lot of time. And don't 00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:33.420 get me wrong, not tarring Americans. There are 00:50:33.420 --> 00:50:35.980 some phenomenal drivers here as well. But I have 00:50:35.980 --> 00:50:39.860 a roundabout in my subdivision. And if I see 00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:42.059 someone even use an indicator on the roundabout, 00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.400 it'll be one in 100 times, for example, which 00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:47.480 if you don't use an indicator on the roundabout, 00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:49.739 you've just negated the benefits of a roundabout 00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:53.800 because you're not flowing anymore. But when 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:59.000 I reverse engineer, the British people, the queuing 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:02.400 and that there is a kind of sense of of um manners 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:05.300 which i think is extended onto the road whereas 00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:08.619 every commercial here that talks about a truck 00:51:08.619 --> 00:51:10.559 is basically you need to get the biggest baddest 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:12.539 vehicle and you can own the road and fuck everyone 00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:15.440 else basically is kind of the messaging and you 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:18.320 see it on the road so not tarring an entire nation 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:21.159 with the same brush but again going back to the 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.579 systems that seem to have the lowest incidence 00:51:23.579 --> 00:51:27.329 of deaths Is there a cultural element as well 00:51:27.329 --> 00:51:30.210 as far as understanding the road safety, sharing 00:51:30.210 --> 00:51:33.150 the road, being considerate that maybe other 00:51:33.150 --> 00:51:35.449 countries that have higher death rates aren't 00:51:35.449 --> 00:51:40.449 getting on a cultural level? Most definitely. 00:51:40.670 --> 00:51:45.570 Culture very much feeds into the behaviors you 00:51:45.570 --> 00:51:52.590 see on the road. And it can only be how you can... 00:51:53.630 --> 00:51:55.769 understand the differences you see from country 00:51:55.769 --> 00:51:59.130 to country um and you know you've so used the 00:51:59.130 --> 00:52:04.829 us and uk you know i i was in in delhi in december 00:52:04.829 --> 00:52:08.610 and it's just a and traveling through rural india 00:52:08.610 --> 00:52:12.889 and it's a whole a whole other culture of the 00:52:12.889 --> 00:52:16.090 ways of using the road and and other perspectives 00:52:16.090 --> 00:52:24.519 and so there's no doubt that just I mean, I think 00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:28.139 the impact of that common culture of road use 00:52:28.139 --> 00:52:33.420 is so important to the outcomes you get from 00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:38.079 that. And the outcomes are how much death and 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:40.460 serious injury are you willing to accept for 00:52:40.460 --> 00:52:43.380 our level of freedom and mobility that we have 00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:45.159 on the roads? That's ultimately what it comes 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:47.539 down to. But we don't ask that question. We never 00:52:47.539 --> 00:52:52.119 ask ourselves directly that question. But, you 00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:56.949 know. And there's a fantastic educational video 00:52:56.949 --> 00:53:01.590 that you can find on YouTube that was done in, 00:53:01.610 --> 00:53:05.989 I think it was Australia. And they asked a guy 00:53:05.989 --> 00:53:08.889 on the street, seemingly random guy, but clearly 00:53:08.889 --> 00:53:15.369 wasn't in the end, how many deaths are acceptable 00:53:15.369 --> 00:53:18.530 each year on our roads in Western Australia or 00:53:18.530 --> 00:53:23.050 whatever it is. And he sort of says a number, 00:53:23.190 --> 00:53:25.750 you know, thinks of a number, right? A bit random. 00:53:27.170 --> 00:53:32.110 And then they sort of go, well, what if that 00:53:32.110 --> 00:53:35.349 looked like this? And then around the corner 00:53:35.349 --> 00:53:39.989 down the street comes a big crowd of people fronted 00:53:39.989 --> 00:53:45.929 by his family, right? And then they say, how 00:53:45.929 --> 00:53:50.539 about zero? And you can see him get emotional. 00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:54.679 And he's like, yeah, yeah, it should be zero. 00:53:56.199 --> 00:54:01.460 We just don't frame it in the right way. And 00:54:01.460 --> 00:54:07.719 if you have a culture where it's all about you 00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:11.760 on the road, all you're looking out for is you, 00:54:11.860 --> 00:54:16.119 what we've lost is that sense of community and 00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:21.980 that sense of... uh altruism to others and i 00:54:21.980 --> 00:54:24.360 would need to work with others to achieve a common 00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:26.920 goal which is that we all want to get to work 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:29.940 and get to where we're going or you know see 00:54:29.940 --> 00:54:33.159 our friends our family we all need to do this 00:54:33.159 --> 00:54:38.639 but let's do it without someone dying right that 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:42.239 that'd be better wouldn't it and but we don't 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:44.000 think that way no one thinks that way and so 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.539 that's a really hard thing to get across and 00:54:46.539 --> 00:54:49.440 so i You know, there's a huge challenge there. 00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:53.559 But ultimately, most of this comes from the top. 00:54:54.460 --> 00:55:00.280 If you don't have from the top a cascade of what 00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:04.239 is important on this road system, is it that 00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:07.119 we can do what we like and we get to where we 00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.920 want to? And as you said, like everyone else, 00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:14.760 if that's the sense from the top, then that's 00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.650 what everyone's going to go to. But if that perspective 00:55:17.650 --> 00:55:20.829 changes and you see the impact, when you tax 00:55:20.829 --> 00:55:24.170 something very small, you add a tiny, you know, 00:55:24.210 --> 00:55:27.230 as a behavioral science, you add a few pence 00:55:27.230 --> 00:55:32.030 onto something, you can change behavior in the 00:55:32.030 --> 00:55:34.309 masses. It's the same thing with road safety. 00:55:34.489 --> 00:55:37.090 If you start to prioritize things that are going 00:55:37.090 --> 00:55:39.769 to reduce risk on the road, you will see massive 00:55:39.769 --> 00:55:41.690 changes in the number of people that are killed 00:55:41.690 --> 00:55:44.889 and injured. It's very simple. And so we don't 00:55:44.889 --> 00:55:47.159 have... well I don't feel there's the leadership 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:52.559 that is required and the strong decision making 00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:56.900 required at the very top to empower those who 00:55:56.900 --> 00:55:58.719 actually know what they're doing in the right 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:01.280 you know there's people in very good positions 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:05.400 in great agencies who would like to do the right 00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:08.619 thing but can't don't have the power but if they 00:56:08.619 --> 00:56:11.559 were given empowered to do so things could change 00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:14.900 and and improve um but i think it all cascades 00:56:14.900 --> 00:56:18.420 down from the top that's a beautiful example 00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:21.460 with the australian commercial um i'm in the 00:56:21.460 --> 00:56:24.539 process of turning my books into a tv show and 00:56:24.539 --> 00:56:29.159 the reason being you don't really see the firefighter 00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:32.019 story very often and you certainly if you do 00:56:32.019 --> 00:56:34.940 it's kind of glamorized and the hero and pulling 00:56:34.940 --> 00:56:37.539 babies out of um you know fires and stuff but 00:56:37.539 --> 00:56:39.920 i think there's more value in seeing the world 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:44.360 through our eyes and to use that example if you 00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:47.539 ask pretty much any first responder where are 00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:50.340 the worst things that you've seen even firefighters 00:56:50.340 --> 00:56:52.360 more often than not it's not going to be the 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:54.460 fire you might have a handful of fire stories 00:56:54.460 --> 00:56:57.079 but most of it is going to be on the road so 00:56:57.079 --> 00:57:01.679 for us every single fatality is horrendous because 00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.989 we see the screams of the family you know if 00:57:04.989 --> 00:57:07.570 people are on scene like it's it's really you 00:57:07.570 --> 00:57:09.610 know it's so deep if you ask law enforcement 00:57:09.610 --> 00:57:13.329 the death notification same thing so it is so 00:57:13.329 --> 00:57:16.090 real for us i think it's it's even more infuriating 00:57:16.090 --> 00:57:19.349 for the first responders out there because and 00:57:19.349 --> 00:57:21.010 i've had this if you ask a lot of us you know 00:57:21.010 --> 00:57:24.659 road rage is a big thing with us Because if I 00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:26.920 see someone driving like an asshole, and I have 00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:30.099 shouted at people before, because I might have 00:57:30.099 --> 00:57:32.440 just the night before cut someone out of a car. 00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:35.760 And that person, the version of that person was 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.019 sitting on the curb, throwing themselves a pity 00:57:38.019 --> 00:57:40.480 party while they just killed three people. And 00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:42.119 now they're sad. And now they get it. But it's 00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:44.960 too fucking late by that point. So I wish you 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.460 could, you know, like in the movies where they 00:57:46.460 --> 00:57:47.940 kind of put their hands on someone's head and 00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:50.139 they see all their trauma. If you could do that 00:57:50.139 --> 00:57:52.400 to the world when we change drive safety, you 00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:54.960 know, overnight, I'm sure. But we don't have 00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:56.820 that ability. And I'm going to hopefully put 00:57:56.820 --> 00:57:59.760 this on the screen. But it's so important for 00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:02.260 us to have this front and center, because when 00:58:02.260 --> 00:58:04.820 COVID happened, there were tickers on the screen. 00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:08.059 And, you know, but then after it went away, oh, 00:58:08.139 --> 00:58:10.000 we're OK now. Well, no, there's still those. 00:58:10.460 --> 00:58:12.579 you know horrendous numbers dying from heart 00:58:12.579 --> 00:58:15.280 disease and you know on the roads and overdoses 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.639 but people shrug their shoulders now well you 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:20.539 know it is what it is and you ask someone in 00:58:20.539 --> 00:58:22.980 the medical field it's not it is what it is because 00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:25.460 every single one of those we pull a sheet over 00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:29.019 it stays with us so i think this community is 00:58:29.019 --> 00:58:31.280 one that has a voice that maybe can actually 00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:37.500 force this issue oh no doubt um i mean if we 00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:41.289 truly accounted for the perspective of the first 00:58:41.289 --> 00:58:45.889 responder on a day -to -day basis and what they 00:58:45.889 --> 00:58:50.849 have to face on scene, those that have to then 00:58:50.849 --> 00:58:55.190 deal with the families and inform them. You know, 00:58:55.210 --> 00:59:00.210 I've seen policemen talk about this and openly 00:59:00.210 --> 00:59:03.369 cry, talking about the first time they had to 00:59:03.369 --> 00:59:06.409 knock on somebody's door to tell them that their 00:59:06.409 --> 00:59:08.769 son or daughter had been killed in a car accident. 00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:14.559 And that, you know, that's got to be horrific. 00:59:14.619 --> 00:59:16.599 And you're dealing with that on a daily basis. 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:21.079 You don't even have time to process that trauma. 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:29.239 You know, I recall the first fatality I attended 00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:32.579 as, you know, when I was doing my close investigation. 00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:37.980 And I recall one in particular that was two. 00:59:38.619 --> 00:59:43.559 two young guys presumably apparently driving 00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:46.780 back from uh something that they'd been attending 00:59:46.780 --> 00:59:50.380 uh and i think it occurred about three or four 00:59:50.380 --> 00:59:52.619 in the morning and they'd veered off the road 00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:54.400 and hit a tree and the car burst into flames 00:59:54.400 --> 01:00:02.900 i remember the sight of that scene vividly and 01:00:02.900 --> 01:00:06.840 it's never left me and My experience is nothing 01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:09.019 compared to what first responders would have, 01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:16.440 because I did this just for six months. But I'm 01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:20.000 aware that having been at that scene and then 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:22.940 also witnessed how the first responders dealt 01:00:22.940 --> 01:00:26.139 with it, and in many cases it's through black 01:00:26.139 --> 01:00:34.130 humour and ways of coping that, you know... Questionable 01:00:34.130 --> 01:00:37.050 at times, but they have to find a way of normalising 01:00:37.050 --> 01:00:40.989 this. And that's the worst part. They're having 01:00:40.989 --> 01:00:44.969 to normalise this just to cope. That's not right. 01:00:45.409 --> 01:00:52.250 That's just not right. And it's always been on 01:00:52.250 --> 01:00:54.889 my mind what they have to deal with on a day 01:00:54.889 --> 01:00:59.389 -to -day basis when it comes to that. Fires are 01:00:59.389 --> 01:01:04.400 much rarer. And fatalities and fires are probably, 01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:08.199 I'm sure, more than they should be, but still 01:01:08.199 --> 01:01:12.360 rarer than what you see in the roads. And ultimately, 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:16.460 I imagine a lot of what is dealt with is road 01:01:16.460 --> 01:01:21.960 collisions and the trauma with that. You said 01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:25.099 something interesting, though. You said if you 01:01:25.099 --> 01:01:26.920 could put the hand on someone's head and they 01:01:26.920 --> 01:01:31.239 could see all those flashbacks. you would love 01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:33.460 to you know you'd like to do that and hope it 01:01:33.460 --> 01:01:37.320 would change people's behavior and that's so 01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:38.679 this is something i've learned throughout my 01:01:38.679 --> 01:01:41.420 career it's the common response and i totally 01:01:41.420 --> 01:01:44.199 get it from that experience i had i was like 01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:47.519 if only people realized how horrific this is 01:01:47.519 --> 01:01:54.360 then it might change how they behave and yet 01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:56.900 the science tells us that's just not the case 01:01:56.900 --> 01:02:01.019 right and so this is the common response you 01:02:01.019 --> 01:02:05.300 get and people think if someone just knew how 01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:09.800 awful this is they wouldn't do it and yet there's 01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:15.300 a series of interventions that you see over time 01:02:15.300 --> 01:02:18.739 that have taken that approach whether that be 01:02:18.739 --> 01:02:22.559 taking young people into prisons and saying if 01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:25.300 they only knew how awful it is in prison they 01:02:25.300 --> 01:02:29.789 wouldn't offend well it failed Those that went 01:02:29.789 --> 01:02:34.690 into prison had a 64 % greater rate of offending 01:02:34.690 --> 01:02:39.510 than those that didn't. Or if only teenage girls 01:02:39.510 --> 01:02:44.530 understood how terrible it would be to get pregnant 01:02:44.530 --> 01:02:50.130 and have a child at this age. Well, okay, infant 01:02:50.130 --> 01:02:54.590 simulators with teen girls. in Western Australia 01:02:54.590 --> 01:02:56.989 found that actually those that were involved 01:02:56.989 --> 01:02:59.989 in this intervention had twice the teen birth 01:02:59.989 --> 01:03:03.949 rate than the control group. And so actually 01:03:03.949 --> 01:03:11.469 you have this weird conflict that what you want 01:03:11.469 --> 01:03:15.829 to do when you experience it is just let people 01:03:15.829 --> 01:03:19.329 know how awful this is, this scene, because you 01:03:19.329 --> 01:03:21.940 think it will affect their behaviour. But the 01:03:21.940 --> 01:03:24.480 reality from behavioral science is that that 01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:29.519 doesn't work. And all you do with giving people 01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:34.619 these scenes is you raise their level of stimulation 01:03:34.619 --> 01:03:37.639 and fear, right? So you always find that. So 01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:39.519 people will always report, oh, but it was really 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:41.659 emotional. I saw the audience get emotional when 01:03:41.659 --> 01:03:43.460 I showed them the car crash scene and things 01:03:43.460 --> 01:03:48.239 like that. But they push away from it. And you 01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:51.239 don't see a behavior change. And you don't see 01:03:51.239 --> 01:03:53.980 an impact on safety from these interventions. 01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:58.079 And so that's, I mentioned earlier about education. 01:03:58.340 --> 01:04:01.039 That's where education has a really important 01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:04.000 role to play, but we have to be very careful 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:07.039 with how we use it. That's really interesting. 01:04:07.320 --> 01:04:10.619 I've been a part of the mock. fatal accidents 01:04:10.619 --> 01:04:12.679 you know we do we're at high school and we cut 01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:14.980 the kid out the car and there's one i saw they 01:04:14.980 --> 01:04:16.480 even brought a blooming hearse and had a whole 01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:18.900 funeral and everything so they really hammered 01:04:18.900 --> 01:04:22.460 that home and then you know being a young englishman 01:04:22.460 --> 01:04:24.380 you know the psa's that we had when we were young 01:04:24.380 --> 01:04:26.659 were just brutal absolutely brutal that's when 01:04:26.659 --> 01:04:29.840 my dad used to show us on farm safety where all 01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:31.800 these children were just horrendously murdered 01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:34.280 and you and the takeaway was supposed to be that 01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:36.019 you wouldn't do that but i certainly remember 01:04:36.019 --> 01:04:38.400 the film i even wrote about it in my book but 01:04:38.860 --> 01:04:41.199 It's interesting because I wonder as well if 01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:43.340 there's an element of, well, if you've seen that 01:04:43.340 --> 01:04:47.159 extreme, then the fear of what if maybe isn't 01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:48.780 there anymore. And you're actually comfortable 01:04:48.780 --> 01:04:50.380 with that extreme because you've been exposed 01:04:50.380 --> 01:04:52.039 to it, even though it wasn't your own reality. 01:04:52.280 --> 01:04:55.699 So, for example, with the infants, were there 01:04:55.699 --> 01:04:57.119 some girls that were like, oh, that's actually 01:04:57.119 --> 01:04:59.019 quite nice. And now you've just kind of pushed 01:04:59.019 --> 01:05:03.159 them into pregnancy. Yeah, potentially. Or you've 01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:07.519 normalized it. Oh, that's normal. And yeah, there 01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:10.059 may have been some that... you know, enjoyed 01:05:10.059 --> 01:05:12.639 the experience. It gave them something to live 01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:17.300 for. Who knows? You know, and same with the prisons. 01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:20.119 You normalised the behaviour. You showed them, 01:05:20.219 --> 01:05:23.920 I mean, you know, what it was like. And maybe 01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:25.820 they went away going, that's not that bad, actually. 01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:29.719 There's people I can look up to, you know? And 01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:34.380 what we commonly do is normalise behaviours that 01:05:34.380 --> 01:05:37.670 are negative, particularly young males. and we 01:05:37.670 --> 01:05:40.849 stereotype them into being types of drivers and 01:05:40.849 --> 01:05:43.230 things and then they become a driver and lo and 01:05:43.230 --> 01:05:46.349 behold they start acting like what they think 01:05:46.349 --> 01:05:49.710 they should act like because we've normalized 01:05:49.710 --> 01:05:54.130 it in you know tv films and and in society uh 01:05:54.130 --> 01:05:57.969 rather than acting as they might want to or they 01:05:57.969 --> 01:06:00.769 think they you know or being independent independently 01:06:00.769 --> 01:06:05.079 minded but also look When you're talking about 01:06:05.079 --> 01:06:09.340 the young age group, they've still got a developing 01:06:09.340 --> 01:06:14.300 mind at that point. They're taking risks in all 01:06:14.300 --> 01:06:20.000 aspects of their lives. But I've been involved 01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:25.659 in road safety education group for Australia 01:06:25.659 --> 01:06:28.900 and New Zealand. And when I came in probably 01:06:28.900 --> 01:06:31.760 around 10 years ago as part of an expert panel, 01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:35.110 we said, look, there isn't really evidence they 01:06:35.110 --> 01:06:39.050 were doing the car crash scene in schools and 01:06:39.050 --> 01:06:41.150 the education was based around that and we said 01:06:41.150 --> 01:06:43.289 look there's not really the evidence for this 01:06:43.289 --> 01:06:48.329 that you're going to make a difference what you 01:06:48.329 --> 01:06:51.050 know it's not really teaching them anything other 01:06:51.050 --> 01:06:53.530 than yeah this is the outcome of a car crash 01:06:53.530 --> 01:06:56.949 it's pretty horrific well do you think they don't 01:06:56.949 --> 01:07:00.349 know that of course they do like we're not stupid 01:07:00.349 --> 01:07:04.760 just seeing it you know dramatized is no different 01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:06.480 to what they see in a film but it doesn't mean 01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:09.880 it that affects them and so you're not necessarily 01:07:09.880 --> 01:07:11.519 going to change their behavior on a day -to -day 01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:13.619 basis or how they might respond when they're 01:07:13.619 --> 01:07:15.420 then in a social scenario with their friends 01:07:15.420 --> 01:07:16.860 one of their friends has been drinking and is 01:07:16.860 --> 01:07:18.360 going to drive home and they're going to be a 01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:22.579 passenger what's better is if you give them those 01:07:22.579 --> 01:07:24.760 real life situations and you sit them down go 01:07:24.760 --> 01:07:26.980 okay let's talk about it imagine you're in this 01:07:26.980 --> 01:07:30.659 situation how are you going to respond well i'd 01:07:30.659 --> 01:07:33.869 find that quite tricky you know um Yeah, I wouldn't 01:07:33.869 --> 01:07:36.489 say anything. Okay, well, let's give you some 01:07:36.489 --> 01:07:39.750 ways to think about things you could say. And 01:07:39.750 --> 01:07:43.329 so what you're doing is starting to arm them 01:07:43.329 --> 01:07:47.710 with tools and strategies to manage the situations 01:07:47.710 --> 01:07:50.630 that could get them into risky situations in 01:07:50.630 --> 01:07:54.670 real life. And so the education becomes supportive 01:07:54.670 --> 01:07:58.090 rather than just warning about risks because 01:07:58.090 --> 01:08:00.679 they know about risks. They're not stupid. We 01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:05.320 often think this, if you only knew. In some ways, 01:08:05.480 --> 01:08:07.760 there will be areas they have a lack of knowledge, 01:08:07.840 --> 01:08:09.940 and that's fine. Then you do need to give them 01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:12.800 some knowledge, but also give them a strategy 01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.199 to support and cope and deal with the situation 01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:18.319 themselves. And if you do that, you empower them. 01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:21.659 And one of the most effective educational resources 01:08:21.659 --> 01:08:26.060 was one that was not even targeted on road safety 01:08:26.060 --> 01:08:30.880 at all. It was a... it was about drugs in in 01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:35.079 australia and it just so happened that you know 01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:37.279 they followed up the driving behaviors of these 01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:39.760 people that were given what's what was called 01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:42.840 insight training um to deal with drugs right 01:08:42.840 --> 01:08:47.079 so the same thing about scenario based uh you 01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:48.579 know what do you do when someone offers you drugs 01:08:48.579 --> 01:08:50.760 well let's let's talk about what you might think 01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:52.579 and what might be cool about it and then let's 01:08:52.579 --> 01:08:55.960 talk about what might you do in that situation 01:08:55.960 --> 01:09:00.079 um And what they found was that there was a road 01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:03.199 safety benefit to this training about drugs. 01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:05.800 Because you're dealing with the same things. 01:09:05.859 --> 01:09:09.079 You're empowering young people about making better 01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:13.239 decisions. Whether that be about drugs, sex education, 01:09:13.500 --> 01:09:17.520 anything else, or driving, you are trying to 01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:20.979 develop them as people to make the right decision 01:09:20.979 --> 01:09:26.010 in a certain situation. And that's... That's 01:09:26.010 --> 01:09:29.170 where this all comes together. And any of your 01:09:29.170 --> 01:09:31.329 public health education for young people comes 01:09:31.329 --> 01:09:35.170 together under one banner. And so education becomes 01:09:35.170 --> 01:09:39.310 a powerful tool when you use it to support. And 01:09:39.310 --> 01:09:41.510 that could be supporting a person making a decision. 01:09:41.649 --> 01:09:43.590 That could be supporting an enforcement campaign. 01:09:44.050 --> 01:09:46.789 If you have an enforcement campaign in your local 01:09:46.789 --> 01:09:50.670 area and you also have an educational campaign 01:09:50.670 --> 01:09:53.770 to both raise awareness that that is happening 01:09:53.770 --> 01:09:58.779 and... increase the perceived legitimacy of why 01:09:58.779 --> 01:10:02.220 that campaign, like why are enforcement, why 01:10:02.220 --> 01:10:03.659 is enforcement going on about this activity? 01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:06.460 Well, because we want to keep our community safe 01:10:06.460 --> 01:10:10.220 and that's, you know, it's important to us. And 01:10:10.220 --> 01:10:13.199 so it should be important to you. And all of 01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:15.880 a sudden you've used education to support a campaign 01:10:15.880 --> 01:10:19.220 and make it more effective. So it's a very important 01:10:19.220 --> 01:10:20.819 tool, but it has to be used in the right way. 01:10:21.239 --> 01:10:23.399 Yeah, no, I agree completely. I think this is 01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:26.560 what I see is lacking in the driving education 01:10:26.560 --> 01:10:29.119 here in America. Because again, I was taught 01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:32.659 by Mr. Evans, my Welsh driving instructor. And 01:10:32.659 --> 01:10:34.239 I, you know, both my parents could drive. And 01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:36.539 again, they were, you know, manipulating farm 01:10:36.539 --> 01:10:39.279 machinery. But we went to a professional driving 01:10:39.279 --> 01:10:41.579 instructor to teach, you know, me the right way. 01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:43.960 And yes, there was part of obviously the prepping 01:10:43.960 --> 01:10:46.079 for the test and, you know, the parallel parking 01:10:46.079 --> 01:10:47.659 and reversing around corners and hill starts 01:10:47.659 --> 01:10:52.560 and all the skills that we need. But but what 01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:55.720 I see is missing here is it's literally you're 01:10:55.720 --> 01:10:58.159 learning to, as you said, turn the wheel and 01:10:58.159 --> 01:11:00.539 to go forwards and backwards, but rarely even 01:11:00.539 --> 01:11:02.279 backwards. Let's be honest in America, you know, 01:11:02.279 --> 01:11:04.239 you're driving into a parking spot forwards and 01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:06.939 then you just back out. And so there's not the 01:11:06.939 --> 01:11:09.720 education of the why. And so I think, you know, 01:11:09.739 --> 01:11:11.979 the kind of cautionary tale has a place, but 01:11:11.979 --> 01:11:13.659 it's really, well, why do you use your indicator? 01:11:14.180 --> 01:11:16.239 You know, if you get someone to say, well, look, 01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:19.220 someone's driving behind you. And they need to 01:11:19.220 --> 01:11:20.859 know if you're going to suddenly slam on your 01:11:20.859 --> 01:11:24.000 brakes and turn left. This is why you're doing 01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:26.060 it. Oh, oh, I never thought of that before. You 01:11:26.060 --> 01:11:27.939 know what I mean? This is, I think, what's missing 01:11:27.939 --> 01:11:31.079 in America through my eyes is there's not an 01:11:31.079 --> 01:11:34.100 understanding of why. So then the question is, 01:11:34.100 --> 01:11:35.640 well, why are you not just taking, you know, 01:11:35.699 --> 01:11:38.100 what is it? 500 grams of pressure to move your 01:11:38.100 --> 01:11:40.260 indicator so that people know what you're doing 01:11:40.260 --> 01:11:42.619 because you're not thinking that. You're not 01:11:42.619 --> 01:11:44.520 the most important person in the road that you're 01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:46.939 flowing with this whole group of people. And 01:11:46.939 --> 01:11:48.699 you're giving them a heads up. Hey, I'm about 01:11:48.699 --> 01:11:52.579 to break or I'm going to turn into this road. 01:11:52.739 --> 01:11:54.600 So, you know, you're safe to pull out. You don't 01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.520 have to wait, you know, when I get there and 01:11:56.520 --> 01:11:59.140 then I turn anyway. All these things that infuriate 01:11:59.140 --> 01:12:01.140 drivers and the same with the stopping distances. 01:12:01.399 --> 01:12:03.359 And why do I, you know, there's three lanes. 01:12:03.420 --> 01:12:05.899 Why can't I just drive 65 in the outside lane? 01:12:06.020 --> 01:12:07.880 Well, because, you know, when you move over, 01:12:07.960 --> 01:12:10.300 people can pass. Everyone gets there on time. 01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:12.260 No one's frustrated. I was trying to pass you 01:12:12.260 --> 01:12:15.060 on the inside now. Things that, you know, more 01:12:15.060 --> 01:12:17.079 advanced drivers, especially people in professions 01:12:17.079 --> 01:12:18.800 that, you know, we have to drive fire engines 01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:21.520 and teletrucks and ambulances and do skid pan 01:12:21.520 --> 01:12:24.340 training. You know, we understand this, but I 01:12:24.340 --> 01:12:26.399 think that's what's missing in America. Like 01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:29.239 you said, it's not just blindly scaring people, 01:12:29.319 --> 01:12:32.220 but, you know, using these cautionary tales to 01:12:32.220 --> 01:12:33.779 get attention and say, well, look, let's talk 01:12:33.779 --> 01:12:36.500 about, you know, the whys behind some of these 01:12:36.500 --> 01:12:39.649 maneuvers that you were taught. I think the average 01:12:39.649 --> 01:12:41.430 person, once they understand it, they'll be like, 01:12:41.510 --> 01:12:43.710 okay, now I'll start using my indicator. Now 01:12:43.710 --> 01:12:46.590 I get it. But I think that why that you alluded 01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:48.829 to is one of the biggest missing pieces in the 01:12:48.829 --> 01:12:54.029 U .S. education system here. Potentially. And 01:12:54.029 --> 01:12:59.590 it shows the opportunity to make a difference, 01:12:59.729 --> 01:13:02.510 right? You're telling me about something that 01:13:02.510 --> 01:13:06.510 is such a simple, basic element of everyday driving. 01:13:08.319 --> 01:13:11.720 that if people did it more commonly, you would 01:13:11.720 --> 01:13:15.020 improve the flow of traffic and therefore the 01:13:15.020 --> 01:13:16.880 efficiency of everyone probably getting to where 01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:22.479 they want to get to. And on a safety level, you 01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:24.520 can apply it to other simple behaviors like, 01:13:24.699 --> 01:13:29.159 well, if everyone put their seatbelt on, not 01:13:29.159 --> 01:13:31.899 as many people would die because a huge number 01:13:31.899 --> 01:13:34.220 of fatalities were people not wearing seatbelts. 01:13:34.520 --> 01:13:38.159 And so there's a... Another simple bit of education 01:13:38.159 --> 01:13:43.899 that could be reinforced. But it also shows the 01:13:43.899 --> 01:13:48.020 opportunity that you can have through things 01:13:48.020 --> 01:13:52.960 like telematics insurance, where everyone has 01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:57.800 to have an insurance, but it's a way of what 01:13:57.800 --> 01:14:00.720 it provides is an engagement opportunity where 01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:05.079 you can provide people with ways of developing 01:14:05.079 --> 01:14:10.079 their... both knowledge and quality of driving 01:14:10.079 --> 01:14:14.720 that they actually become better and and and 01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:17.979 more informed in a way that doesn't have to be 01:14:17.979 --> 01:14:22.800 punitive it can actually be rewarding and the 01:14:22.800 --> 01:14:25.819 potential there is huge huge and it's a growing 01:14:25.819 --> 01:14:27.760 you know it's a fantastically growing market 01:14:27.760 --> 01:14:32.220 and if done if done right if designed and developed 01:14:32.220 --> 01:14:36.039 with behavioral science you know in mind You 01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:40.020 can develop schemes that can actually really 01:14:40.020 --> 01:14:44.239 help reduce risk. And that's beneficial to the 01:14:44.239 --> 01:14:47.460 insurance company. It's beneficial to you. It's 01:14:47.460 --> 01:14:49.600 beneficial to the people that are driving around 01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:53.939 you and your community. And ultimately, it hasn't 01:14:53.939 --> 01:14:56.479 actually required really politicians to do anything 01:14:56.479 --> 01:14:58.859 at that point. But if you align it with other 01:14:58.859 --> 01:15:02.180 things that politicians and policy could do. 01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:07.600 then you can help people to become safer drivers 01:15:07.600 --> 01:15:12.000 or help people to become better drivers. I don't 01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:13.939 expect people to drive around thinking of safety. 01:15:14.060 --> 01:15:17.960 Nobody does, right? We just drive. And so you 01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:20.739 have to be realistic about it. I think of it 01:15:20.739 --> 01:15:22.119 in terms of safety. You probably think of it 01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:23.939 in terms of safety because you're well aware 01:15:23.939 --> 01:15:26.859 of the impact, like you do. I also get really 01:15:26.859 --> 01:15:29.319 annoyed when I see people driving in a way that 01:15:29.319 --> 01:15:34.869 puts others at risk. And so, you know, but we 01:15:34.869 --> 01:15:37.109 think about it in a different way to most people 01:15:37.109 --> 01:15:39.210 who are literally just getting in a car to go 01:15:39.210 --> 01:15:43.890 from A to B. And that's it. But you have to have 01:15:43.890 --> 01:15:46.590 ways of being able to engage them and without 01:15:46.590 --> 01:15:49.510 always having to be the authority that is doing 01:15:49.510 --> 01:15:52.890 so. I think getting to, you know, what we talked 01:15:52.890 --> 01:15:55.869 about with your dad as well, the insurance premiums, 01:15:55.869 --> 01:15:57.329 I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but 01:15:57.329 --> 01:15:59.750 in America now, the driving insurance premiums 01:15:59.750 --> 01:16:04.069 are insane. I mean, I forget. It's close to $10 01:16:04.069 --> 01:16:09.010 ,000 a year now for us. And we've got three cars. 01:16:09.229 --> 01:16:12.010 So my wife and I obviously have been driving 01:16:12.010 --> 01:16:14.970 for a long time. My son is 18, so he's more expensive. 01:16:15.289 --> 01:16:18.050 But think about that. That's the price of a car 01:16:18.050 --> 01:16:20.909 every year to insure a car, which again, I'm 01:16:20.909 --> 01:16:23.409 touching wood again, we haven't had any accidents. 01:16:23.489 --> 01:16:27.090 So that's zero claims as well. For me, since 01:16:27.090 --> 01:16:30.520 I was 17, I'm 51 now. No benefit there whatsoever. 01:16:30.600 --> 01:16:33.279 I'm still just getting gouged. But I would imagine 01:16:33.279 --> 01:16:36.539 that if we made a massive difference on the number 01:16:36.539 --> 01:16:39.079 of accidents on the road, then insurance payments 01:16:39.079 --> 01:16:44.159 would fall. Well, the ridiculous thing is that 01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:47.140 the auto insurance industry isn't really making 01:16:47.140 --> 01:16:50.920 any money on this either. So you feel like you're 01:16:50.920 --> 01:16:56.560 paying a ridiculous amount. They are paying so 01:16:56.560 --> 01:17:02.050 much in outgoings. that they're not making much 01:17:02.050 --> 01:17:05.069 profit from this either. So nobody is actually 01:17:05.069 --> 01:17:08.170 winning in this market right now. Do you know 01:17:08.170 --> 01:17:11.590 what I mean? It's really not suitable. And that's 01:17:11.590 --> 01:17:14.850 where I think the market right now is primed 01:17:14.850 --> 01:17:17.029 for something to change. Something needs to change. 01:17:18.569 --> 01:17:22.789 And that's probably where telematics type policies 01:17:22.789 --> 01:17:25.289 will come in because you will get to a point 01:17:25.289 --> 01:17:28.920 where it makes sense for someone to say, Yeah, 01:17:28.939 --> 01:17:30.920 I'll have a telematics policy because it's cheaper. 01:17:31.079 --> 01:17:35.039 And if I, you know, if I follow along with how 01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:38.300 it, you know, it measures my driving and I can 01:17:38.300 --> 01:17:40.659 actually earn rewards and actually I can become 01:17:40.659 --> 01:17:42.239 a better, well, I quite like this. Now I can 01:17:42.239 --> 01:17:45.420 see how I perform compared to other people, you 01:17:45.420 --> 01:17:47.720 know, and it becomes something people want to 01:17:47.720 --> 01:17:50.579 do and it saves them money. All of a sudden you've 01:17:50.579 --> 01:17:53.340 developed a very strong market and reason for 01:17:53.340 --> 01:17:57.359 doing this. And if you've got that type of data, 01:17:57.479 --> 01:17:59.760 insurance companies can price you more accurately 01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:02.460 than just based on, you know, your background, 01:18:02.659 --> 01:18:07.680 your zip code and your age and your occupation. 01:18:08.220 --> 01:18:12.840 So it makes much more sense to be, you know, 01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:16.020 these data are available. The cars are developing 01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:20.119 the data now. So it makes perfect sense for us 01:18:20.119 --> 01:18:23.340 to be using this to manage risk better. One of 01:18:23.340 --> 01:18:26.240 the other... You know, big role. Absolutely. 01:18:26.240 --> 01:18:27.960 One of the problems we have in America, and I'm 01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:29.739 sure you've been exposed to this, is the frivolous 01:18:29.739 --> 01:18:32.880 lawsuits too. We have billboards on the motorways 01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:36.460 saying, hey, I got $6 million this year. And 01:18:36.460 --> 01:18:39.399 it's almost like encouraging some people to get 01:18:39.399 --> 01:18:41.380 into an accident. Maybe that'll be taken care 01:18:41.380 --> 01:18:42.819 of the rest of my life. It's like winning the 01:18:42.819 --> 01:18:46.020 lottery. And there is obviously a time and a 01:18:46.020 --> 01:18:48.359 place when someone through no fault of their 01:18:48.359 --> 01:18:50.840 own has had their life changed. And yes, that's 01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:53.439 where lawsuits have an application. But again, 01:18:53.680 --> 01:18:56.739 our profession is well aware of these five mile 01:18:56.739 --> 01:18:59.760 an hour backing accidents where the person now 01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:03.399 is supposedly paralyzed. And I've had it in the 01:19:03.399 --> 01:19:05.539 moment. They're on the phone to the lawyer in 01:19:05.539 --> 01:19:07.840 the ambulance on the way to the hospital. So 01:19:07.840 --> 01:19:10.020 that is something I think we need to change in 01:19:10.020 --> 01:19:11.720 America, which I think would make a big dent 01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:15.149 on these premiums too. Oh, it definitely would. 01:19:15.310 --> 01:19:19.310 I mean, yeah, that's been one of the crippling 01:19:19.310 --> 01:19:22.390 things in the US for the auto insurance market 01:19:22.390 --> 01:19:29.970 is the rise in those claims and the amount that 01:19:29.970 --> 01:19:32.250 they're having to pay out. So some of them, you 01:19:32.250 --> 01:19:34.729 know, they're sort of called nuclear claims because 01:19:34.729 --> 01:19:39.390 they just absolutely blow a company's budget 01:19:39.390 --> 01:19:42.189 out for the year when one of these goes off. 01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.560 But it brings you back to this, you know, the 01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:49.880 young driver issue, that if you have someone, 01:19:50.079 --> 01:19:51.899 you know, if you've got a car full of four young 01:19:51.899 --> 01:19:58.199 people, you know, late teens, early 20s, they've 01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:00.279 got a lifetime of potentially living with a serious 01:20:00.279 --> 01:20:04.920 injury or the result of a crash that, you know, 01:20:04.920 --> 01:20:08.140 insurance companies have to pick up. And so, 01:20:08.239 --> 01:20:11.619 of course, improving the risk on the road and 01:20:11.619 --> 01:20:14.659 reducing it. is beneficial to everyone in the 01:20:14.659 --> 01:20:19.159 whole place. And so it does feel to me like we're 01:20:19.159 --> 01:20:21.920 on the cusp of things have to change. This just 01:20:21.920 --> 01:20:27.979 can't continue. I'm not quite sure what the spark 01:20:27.979 --> 01:20:29.979 is going to be that really ignites it, though. 01:20:31.720 --> 01:20:34.579 But I'm certainly not in the US right now where 01:20:34.579 --> 01:20:38.199 there's a feeling of a strong culture of freedoms 01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:42.689 and independence. Driving is seen as one of those, 01:20:42.869 --> 01:20:47.210 it's my right, not necessarily a responsibility. 01:20:48.109 --> 01:20:52.289 Yeah. And again, civilian versus citizen. Yeah. 01:20:53.409 --> 01:20:57.329 You mentioned earlier about the interesting statistics 01:20:57.329 --> 01:21:01.350 in the military. I had a sleep researcher from 01:21:01.350 --> 01:21:04.689 the army here in the US, Alison Brageron, and 01:21:04.689 --> 01:21:07.430 she was talking about the numerous fatalities 01:21:07.430 --> 01:21:11.289 they had from the cadre. in special forces selection 01:21:11.289 --> 01:21:14.989 driving home from fort bragg and you know coming 01:21:14.989 --> 01:21:17.710 off the side of a mountain for example sleep 01:21:17.710 --> 01:21:20.210 deprivation is is a you know thing near and dear 01:21:20.210 --> 01:21:23.529 to my heart because the fire service in america 01:21:23.529 --> 01:21:26.770 we're so through refusing to change the things 01:21:26.770 --> 01:21:29.369 that need to be changed they're so overworked 01:21:29.369 --> 01:21:33.520 and understaffed now At the basal basic week, 01:21:33.720 --> 01:21:36.760 they're working 56. That's three 24 -hour shifts 01:21:36.760 --> 01:21:39.140 with no sleep. But now, because of the recruitment 01:21:39.140 --> 01:21:41.500 crisis, they're being forced to work extra shifts. 01:21:41.579 --> 01:21:43.899 So now you've got people behind the wheel that 01:21:43.899 --> 01:21:47.699 have worked 80 hours, 90, 100 hours, not slept 01:21:47.699 --> 01:21:51.039 four times that week, 48 hours, 72 hours at a 01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:54.420 time, which is pure insanity to me. So that's 01:21:54.420 --> 01:21:56.479 something that I'm working on, being a voice 01:21:56.479 --> 01:21:58.840 to... get back to a healthy work week and reverse 01:21:58.840 --> 01:22:02.140 the recruitment and retention crisis. But circling 01:22:02.140 --> 01:22:05.180 back to your comment, talk to me then about the 01:22:05.180 --> 01:22:06.899 issues that you were seeing in the military. 01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:09.619 And then let's kind of talk if there's any area 01:22:09.619 --> 01:22:11.760 you wanted to discuss about sleep and driving 01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:17.699 safety. I mean, first that's, yeah, I can see 01:22:17.699 --> 01:22:21.500 how that would be very concerning from your perspective 01:22:21.500 --> 01:22:24.659 and from your colleagues of working in that environment. 01:22:27.310 --> 01:22:30.489 I mean, it's just clear any time you look at 01:22:30.489 --> 01:22:33.630 research in any industry that when you push people 01:22:33.630 --> 01:22:37.210 to their limits in terms of the time on task 01:22:37.210 --> 01:22:41.270 and then just the length of time, you know, not 01:22:41.270 --> 01:22:43.649 just on task, but being engaged in something 01:22:43.649 --> 01:22:48.350 or repeating a behavior, that the ability to 01:22:48.350 --> 01:22:51.989 perform it well, you know, diminishes. And so 01:22:51.989 --> 01:22:56.420 it doesn't sound like a... a feasible thing to 01:22:56.420 --> 01:22:59.319 continue without what will end up being the loss 01:22:59.319 --> 01:23:06.380 of something um somewhere and whether that you 01:23:06.380 --> 01:23:08.180 know be in an instant that you're attending or 01:23:08.180 --> 01:23:10.579 whether that be you know decision making is always 01:23:10.579 --> 01:23:12.840 going to be impacted in these situations ultimately 01:23:12.840 --> 01:23:17.380 uh and that's that's the issue that when we get 01:23:17.380 --> 01:23:20.979 fatigued we make worse poorer decisions and there's 01:23:20.979 --> 01:23:24.569 no way around that and i imagine in Well, in 01:23:24.569 --> 01:23:28.090 safety -critical industries like yours, a decision 01:23:28.090 --> 01:23:32.529 can be life or death for you or a colleague, 01:23:32.590 --> 01:23:36.750 and you're having to make decisions under extreme 01:23:36.750 --> 01:23:40.550 pressure and timelines. So, yeah, that would 01:23:40.550 --> 01:23:44.590 be very concerning. Going back to your question 01:23:44.590 --> 01:23:47.029 about, yeah, in terms of the military side, yeah, 01:23:47.109 --> 01:23:54.840 I was just staggered that... At the time, the 01:23:54.840 --> 01:24:02.039 biggest loss of life in the military was basically 01:24:02.039 --> 01:24:06.100 called accidental death. And when you delve into 01:24:06.100 --> 01:24:08.399 that, the majority of those accidental deaths 01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:15.359 are road crashes. And they were outweighing loss 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:21.939 in service fatalities. You know, suicide is always 01:24:21.939 --> 01:24:25.439 the other big one that's up there alongside road 01:24:25.439 --> 01:24:34.060 safety. But it just seemed something that was 01:24:34.060 --> 01:24:38.500 bizarre. Again, you don't think about it until 01:24:38.500 --> 01:24:43.619 you look at it. And I'm pretty sure none of these 01:24:43.619 --> 01:24:47.420 service people think about when they finish their 01:24:47.420 --> 01:24:50.390 shift. It is not in their mind that that drive 01:24:50.390 --> 01:24:55.649 home is probably as much risk as being in a combat 01:24:55.649 --> 01:24:59.510 zone for them. It won't be seen that way. All 01:24:59.510 --> 01:25:02.170 they're thinking is, I want to get home. I'm 01:25:02.170 --> 01:25:08.529 so desperate to get home. And so, again, it's 01:25:08.529 --> 01:25:12.430 about how do you manage that risk? And the management 01:25:12.430 --> 01:25:17.569 of that risk then comes down onto the defence. 01:25:19.220 --> 01:25:21.579 operators the people that are responsible for 01:25:21.579 --> 01:25:26.520 their well -being um but that as always you then 01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:30.479 hit these issues of they're like well these guys 01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:33.659 have just been on you know out in whatever country 01:25:33.659 --> 01:25:38.119 serving for so many months we've just flown them 01:25:38.119 --> 01:25:41.180 in all they want to do is go home if we tell 01:25:41.180 --> 01:25:43.640 them they need to go and spend the night in the 01:25:43.640 --> 01:25:48.390 barracks they're not going to be happy And you're 01:25:48.390 --> 01:25:57.090 like, okay, I can totally get that. But if you 01:25:57.090 --> 01:26:00.329 know they're at risk, is that not the better 01:26:00.329 --> 01:26:04.970 thing to do? And actually, what you find when 01:26:04.970 --> 01:26:08.270 you put in policies that are initially people 01:26:08.270 --> 01:26:14.130 don't like, you think people just adapt. And 01:26:14.130 --> 01:26:16.890 over time, it just becomes the norm. So then 01:26:16.890 --> 01:26:19.270 becomes the norm that, okay, I'm going to arrive 01:26:19.270 --> 01:26:22.029 back from duty. We've got one night in the barracks. 01:26:22.029 --> 01:26:23.729 Let's get a good sleep. Then I'm going home. 01:26:24.350 --> 01:26:28.050 And it becomes the norm. And I always refer to 01:26:28.050 --> 01:26:33.289 the smoking ban in the UK that came in. And, 01:26:33.470 --> 01:26:36.510 well, you'll recall growing up and going into 01:26:36.510 --> 01:26:40.970 bars full of smoke, as I did, and that was the 01:26:40.970 --> 01:26:43.329 common thing. And smoking in a bar was seen as 01:26:43.329 --> 01:26:46.590 almost a right. as, you know, it was part of 01:26:46.590 --> 01:26:50.729 life. And when they touted the smoking ban, people 01:26:50.729 --> 01:26:52.489 were saying, this is never going to work. How 01:26:52.489 --> 01:26:53.810 are you going to police that? You're going to 01:26:53.810 --> 01:26:55.409 have police going into every bar, checking that 01:26:55.409 --> 01:26:57.130 someone's not smoking. It's never going to happen. 01:26:58.090 --> 01:27:00.850 They brought it in and people don't smoke in 01:27:00.850 --> 01:27:04.430 bars. Bars just made a little area out of the 01:27:04.430 --> 01:27:06.710 back where they could go and smoke, sheltered 01:27:06.710 --> 01:27:10.069 area. And people go out there and do it. And 01:27:10.069 --> 01:27:12.090 you don't see any police in bars charging someone 01:27:12.090 --> 01:27:14.869 for lighting up. It's just now not a done thing. 01:27:15.670 --> 01:27:20.289 we just adapt to this, you know, and it's not 01:27:20.289 --> 01:27:22.529 a big issue, but it's probably had a massive 01:27:22.529 --> 01:27:26.170 impact on health outcomes. No, 100%. I know, 01:27:26.229 --> 01:27:28.630 I mean, the younger generations now, I mean, 01:27:28.649 --> 01:27:31.289 vaping, I think, is the one concern, but as far 01:27:31.289 --> 01:27:35.470 as smoking and alcohol, I mean, they participate 01:27:35.470 --> 01:27:38.029 in both of those a fraction of the amount that 01:27:38.029 --> 01:27:40.689 the rest of us do. So that's, again, it shows 01:27:40.689 --> 01:27:45.390 if you, you know, if you educate, and set those 01:27:45.390 --> 01:27:48.869 parameters and are humble enough as someone who's 01:27:48.869 --> 01:27:50.789 an older generation to say, yeah, like I tell 01:27:50.789 --> 01:27:53.029 my son all the time, I drink and I'm like, yeah, 01:27:53.050 --> 01:27:56.170 but honestly, it tastes horrible and it does 01:27:56.170 --> 01:27:58.369 nothing for you. I'm still working on trying 01:27:58.369 --> 01:28:01.409 to completely eliminate it from my life, but 01:28:01.409 --> 01:28:04.329 my son doesn't drink at all. He's 18. So again, 01:28:04.449 --> 01:28:06.829 obviously too young air quotes in America, but 01:28:06.829 --> 01:28:10.930 old enough in the UK. And then my bonus boy, 01:28:10.989 --> 01:28:15.579 my stepson is now 24. And he'll have a drink 01:28:15.579 --> 01:28:19.500 once in a blue moon. Now, when I was 17, 18, 01:28:19.560 --> 01:28:24.319 19, my mates were at the pub Friday and Saturday 01:28:24.319 --> 01:28:28.640 religiously. So, yeah, it's amazing. There's 01:28:28.640 --> 01:28:31.720 a phrase, plant the seed of a tree under which 01:28:31.720 --> 01:28:33.760 the shade you'll never know. And I love that. 01:28:34.159 --> 01:28:36.859 Going back to that culture again of doing something. 01:28:38.180 --> 01:28:40.800 that it may not benefit you, but doing it because 01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:42.520 it's the right thing to do, whether it's on the 01:28:42.520 --> 01:28:44.239 road or whether we were talking about smoking, 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:48.340 because the anti -smoking warriors that fought 01:28:48.340 --> 01:28:51.619 tooth and nail when I was a kid, I mean, we're 01:28:51.619 --> 01:28:53.760 benefiting from it now. I mean, that's one of 01:28:53.760 --> 01:28:55.399 the most incredible things I think of modern 01:28:55.399 --> 01:28:57.939 society was eliminating tobacco because there 01:28:57.939 --> 01:29:01.260 was no question of the health ill effects, despite 01:29:01.260 --> 01:29:04.119 some of the research saying, oh, cigarettes are 01:29:04.119 --> 01:29:07.289 fine. funded by the cigarette companies. We all 01:29:07.289 --> 01:29:10.810 know now the truth. So who knows how many millions 01:29:10.810 --> 01:29:15.470 of lives those people saved. Massively. But it 01:29:15.470 --> 01:29:18.229 takes decades for that type of thing to happen. 01:29:18.569 --> 01:29:24.329 Culture shifts don't happen quickly. In fact, 01:29:24.369 --> 01:29:28.310 well, I say that. COVID was probably a unique 01:29:28.310 --> 01:29:31.170 example of what happens if you suddenly change 01:29:31.170 --> 01:29:34.310 a lot of things. and you will get a behavioral 01:29:34.310 --> 01:29:36.810 shift. But it was for a short period of time. 01:29:36.949 --> 01:29:39.810 And as you say, then you pull it all away and 01:29:39.810 --> 01:29:42.609 people went back to their day -to -day lives. 01:29:45.369 --> 01:29:50.750 But it showed you the impact that policies can 01:29:50.750 --> 01:29:54.189 have in shaping behavior. And all of a sudden, 01:29:54.310 --> 01:29:57.109 like standing two meters away from someone in 01:29:57.109 --> 01:30:01.699 a queue became the norm. Using anti -bag hand 01:30:01.699 --> 01:30:05.659 wash was the way for everyone, et cetera, and 01:30:05.659 --> 01:30:11.640 wearing masks. But what we sort of learned was 01:30:11.640 --> 01:30:14.500 protect yourself and your community and those 01:30:14.500 --> 01:30:18.220 around you and protect older members of your 01:30:18.220 --> 01:30:20.920 family and things like that. You had to start 01:30:20.920 --> 01:30:24.239 thinking about what really mattered. And I think 01:30:24.239 --> 01:30:28.640 that you saw... you saw a level of community 01:30:28.640 --> 01:30:31.779 possibly not seen in other ways. I think I've 01:30:31.779 --> 01:30:33.939 digressed from the precise point you were making, 01:30:34.079 --> 01:30:41.000 but yeah, there's some really interesting work 01:30:41.000 --> 01:30:46.840 by a guy I work closely with, Jonathan Asani 01:30:46.840 --> 01:30:51.720 at Johns Hopkins. I mention him deliberately 01:30:51.720 --> 01:30:55.680 because he's a great guy and he's looked at sort 01:30:55.680 --> 01:31:00.329 of, mindfulness in driving and um and sense of 01:31:00.329 --> 01:31:07.270 purpose and and in in one study of sort of teens 01:31:07.270 --> 01:31:12.609 i think so 16 to 19 he was like nationally representative 01:31:12.609 --> 01:31:16.770 in the us and he he found that young people that 01:31:16.770 --> 01:31:21.529 had a a sense of purpose an altruistic sense 01:31:21.529 --> 01:31:25.590 of purpose so as a care for like people around 01:31:25.590 --> 01:31:31.590 them their family or or others were safer drivers 01:31:31.590 --> 01:31:37.609 and and it just shone a light on and this was 01:31:37.609 --> 01:31:39.789 mediated by actually a bit of mindfulness in 01:31:39.789 --> 01:31:42.949 driving so you know an awareness and paying attention 01:31:42.949 --> 01:31:45.229 to what you were doing like deliberately and 01:31:45.229 --> 01:31:48.729 paying attention to those around you uh it sort 01:31:48.729 --> 01:31:52.090 of mediated this and ultimately it shone a light 01:31:52.090 --> 01:31:56.550 on the importance of us having you know why are 01:31:56.550 --> 01:32:00.649 you doing this what what is your purpose and 01:32:00.649 --> 01:32:04.149 it made me think about it um that's very easy 01:32:04.149 --> 01:32:07.770 when you've got two two young kids but um it's 01:32:07.770 --> 01:32:12.710 yeah you know i think for for young people it 01:32:12.710 --> 01:32:14.869 can be really hard to know what your sense of 01:32:14.869 --> 01:32:17.890 purpose is you don't think about that um probably 01:32:17.890 --> 01:32:20.409 until asked in a questionnaire written by a psychologist 01:32:20.409 --> 01:32:25.460 you know um But it highlights how important that 01:32:25.460 --> 01:32:27.600 is. And if you don't have a sense of purpose, 01:32:27.680 --> 01:32:31.579 then you probably just don't care. And you're 01:32:31.579 --> 01:32:32.739 going to look out for yourself. You're going 01:32:32.739 --> 01:32:36.000 to be more self -sensed. And actually, those 01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:38.659 that did have a really strong sense of purpose 01:32:38.659 --> 01:32:42.659 were a bit more self -oriented. So they were 01:32:42.659 --> 01:32:46.779 probably really driven to achieve for themselves, 01:32:46.819 --> 01:32:49.439 but not necessarily caring about those around 01:32:49.439 --> 01:32:51.239 them. They actually had a higher risk profile. 01:32:53.399 --> 01:32:56.720 You know, you can start to see how someone's 01:32:56.720 --> 01:33:00.260 personality starts to feed into what underpins 01:33:00.260 --> 01:33:01.859 some of their driving behaviors that would put 01:33:01.859 --> 01:33:06.859 them more at risk or not. And so going back to 01:33:06.859 --> 01:33:10.300 the start, driving is really simple in one way, 01:33:10.380 --> 01:33:13.600 but it's exceptionally complex in another. Absolutely. 01:33:14.100 --> 01:33:16.020 I want to hit one more area, then we'll go to 01:33:16.020 --> 01:33:17.960 some closing questions. But obviously, this is 01:33:17.960 --> 01:33:19.779 I'm sure what all the people are thinking about 01:33:19.779 --> 01:33:23.380 when they're listening. The smartphones these 01:33:23.380 --> 01:33:26.300 days, when I hear a lot of psychologists talking 01:33:26.300 --> 01:33:29.539 about mental health in children, smartphones 01:33:29.539 --> 01:33:32.220 and social media is always one of the things 01:33:32.220 --> 01:33:36.180 they talk about. When I think of driving, the 01:33:36.180 --> 01:33:38.239 tendency is to think, well, these young kids 01:33:38.239 --> 01:33:40.520 are on their phones in the cars. I'd have to 01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:42.279 be completely honest. Most of the people I see 01:33:42.279 --> 01:33:44.279 messing with phones while they're driving are 01:33:44.279 --> 01:33:47.479 actually. 30 40 year olds so i'm not even going 01:33:47.479 --> 01:33:48.939 to put the young people i'm sure there are some 01:33:48.939 --> 01:33:51.579 doing it too but it's the adults it's the older 01:33:51.579 --> 01:33:54.479 people that i see you know so talk to me about 01:33:54.479 --> 01:33:57.220 that distraction very new in the world of driving 01:33:57.220 --> 01:34:00.199 um but i mean as as a as a first responder it 01:34:00.199 --> 01:34:02.939 seems like the duis are going down but the distracted 01:34:02.939 --> 01:34:04.979 driving through cell phones are really causing 01:34:04.979 --> 01:34:09.220 a lot of issues now yeah i think that's probably 01:34:09.220 --> 01:34:14.159 uh a reasonable uh sort of take on the situation 01:34:14.159 --> 01:34:20.220 um look it's it's a huge distractor in the vehicle 01:34:20.220 --> 01:34:24.439 but it's a huge distractor in life but you know 01:34:24.439 --> 01:34:26.819 even if you're having a sitting in a cafe having 01:34:26.819 --> 01:34:28.819 a conversation with someone if their phone beeps 01:34:28.819 --> 01:34:31.899 their attention is taken to the phone and away 01:34:31.899 --> 01:34:34.380 from you even in that one -to -one personal situation 01:34:34.380 --> 01:34:39.760 so there's no difference in a car where the the 01:34:39.760 --> 01:34:43.840 phone If it is, you know, if it's engaged or 01:34:43.840 --> 01:34:47.159 in vision and something happens, like you get 01:34:47.159 --> 01:34:50.479 a notification, your attention will be drawn 01:34:50.479 --> 01:34:55.560 to it. And the desire to know what that notification 01:34:55.560 --> 01:35:01.079 is, is strong. And that is then just pulling 01:35:01.079 --> 01:35:03.760 you away from attending to the road and what's 01:35:03.760 --> 01:35:07.119 around you and the task you should be prioritizing. 01:35:07.479 --> 01:35:10.300 And the priority becomes something else. And 01:35:10.300 --> 01:35:13.479 so it's very easy to understand the mechanisms 01:35:13.479 --> 01:35:17.380 of how mobile phones drag our attention away 01:35:17.380 --> 01:35:21.520 from what we should be doing. And it's a very 01:35:21.520 --> 01:35:25.899 difficult one because this was never really managed 01:35:25.899 --> 01:35:28.260 at the start when mobile phones were emerging, 01:35:28.420 --> 01:35:34.979 that there were no standards in place on how 01:35:34.979 --> 01:35:38.449 vehicles should integrate with them. what should 01:35:38.449 --> 01:35:41.069 be what behavior should be allowed and what doesn't 01:35:41.069 --> 01:35:44.970 um but all the receipt all the research was very 01:35:44.970 --> 01:35:48.869 quickly demonstrating that if you are on your 01:35:48.869 --> 01:35:55.369 phone you know if you're texting really bad because 01:35:55.369 --> 01:35:58.449 you are having to take your eyes off the road 01:35:58.449 --> 01:36:02.949 a lot to create that text if you are holding 01:36:02.949 --> 01:36:05.329 your phone and speaking It's pretty bad. You've 01:36:05.329 --> 01:36:09.770 got a manual and an auditory distraction. And 01:36:09.770 --> 01:36:13.729 even if you're speaking hands -free, there's 01:36:13.729 --> 01:36:16.770 a distraction effect because it goes back to 01:36:16.770 --> 01:36:18.689 what we talked about at the start. You are trying 01:36:18.689 --> 01:36:20.670 to take in a flow of information in front of 01:36:20.670 --> 01:36:23.710 you about your environment at a pace that's ridiculous. 01:36:24.090 --> 01:36:29.029 And your system is trying to process that. You 01:36:29.029 --> 01:36:32.069 then add in another task, like listening to a 01:36:32.069 --> 01:36:37.819 conversation or speaking. to the speaker in the 01:36:37.819 --> 01:36:40.520 car and listen to someone on that conversation. 01:36:40.720 --> 01:36:43.039 You're just adding more demand on your brain. 01:36:43.159 --> 01:36:45.460 And we're pretty limited when it comes that way. 01:36:45.500 --> 01:36:47.899 We're very impressive as humans, but we're limited 01:36:47.899 --> 01:36:50.340 in our capacity to manage information at any 01:36:50.340 --> 01:36:54.220 one time. And so two things happen. Your performance 01:36:54.220 --> 01:36:58.199 of driving the vehicle reduces and you become 01:36:58.199 --> 01:37:01.340 worse at that. You don't control the vehicle 01:37:01.340 --> 01:37:06.409 as well. Your distance to people changes and 01:37:06.409 --> 01:37:09.430 your speed is more variable. So we know your 01:37:09.430 --> 01:37:11.590 performances, but also your performance on the 01:37:11.590 --> 01:37:16.350 call is bad. That gets affected. So I ran simulator 01:37:16.350 --> 01:37:21.369 studies and we asked people to listen to a shopping 01:37:21.369 --> 01:37:24.229 list and then repeat it back. And they can hardly 01:37:24.229 --> 01:37:26.890 remember the things on the list because they 01:37:26.890 --> 01:37:28.609 just can't process all the information at the 01:37:28.609 --> 01:37:31.180 same time. And people often say, well, surely 01:37:31.180 --> 01:37:33.659 speaking hands -free is just the same as speaking 01:37:33.659 --> 01:37:38.159 to a passenger. But it's not the case. And the 01:37:38.159 --> 01:37:40.220 reason it's not the case is something really 01:37:40.220 --> 01:37:43.060 subtle. And next time you're in the car with 01:37:43.060 --> 01:37:46.439 a passenger and you're talking to them, watch 01:37:46.439 --> 01:37:50.100 how their cadence changes as you approach demanding 01:37:50.100 --> 01:37:53.819 situations, right? If you get to a junction, 01:37:54.560 --> 01:37:57.479 They will stop talking. If they're talking, they 01:37:57.479 --> 01:37:59.479 will stop. When you're at a point where you're 01:37:59.479 --> 01:38:01.220 making a decision about pulling out into traffic, 01:38:01.539 --> 01:38:05.100 they'll naturally just slow down or stop talking 01:38:05.100 --> 01:38:07.939 and give you a moment to attend to that high 01:38:07.939 --> 01:38:10.699 demand situation. Then they'll pick up the conversation 01:38:10.699 --> 01:38:13.500 again and carry on. On the phone, obviously, 01:38:13.500 --> 01:38:17.239 someone can't see what you see. And so they just 01:38:17.239 --> 01:38:19.960 continue talking. You could be having a conversation. 01:38:20.829 --> 01:38:22.789 a sales conversation you could be having a conversation 01:38:22.789 --> 01:38:25.869 with your boss who knows it could be quite important 01:38:25.869 --> 01:38:27.630 or it could be an emotive comment you could be 01:38:27.630 --> 01:38:30.130 having an argument with with someone or whatever 01:38:30.130 --> 01:38:32.750 it could be highly emotive and they don't know 01:38:32.750 --> 01:38:34.869 you're in a high demand situation already and 01:38:34.869 --> 01:38:36.630 your brain can't just cope with this and you 01:38:36.630 --> 01:38:39.170 make it's the same as the sleep deprivation you 01:38:39.170 --> 01:38:42.050 make a poor decision anything that either distracts 01:38:42.050 --> 01:38:46.449 us or you know affects or impairs us is just 01:38:46.449 --> 01:38:50.960 influencing that innate ability to make a good 01:38:50.960 --> 01:38:54.039 decision your biasing stops working you're not 01:38:54.039 --> 01:38:56.100 seeing things in the environment you're not identifying 01:38:56.100 --> 01:38:58.720 them in advance you're not anticipating and there 01:38:58.720 --> 01:39:00.939 was a cracking little study that showed that 01:39:00.939 --> 01:39:04.880 someone like in the equivalent of speaking on 01:39:04.880 --> 01:39:09.619 the phone in the car their ability to spot hazards 01:39:09.619 --> 01:39:13.659 is the same as a novice driver so all of that 01:39:13.659 --> 01:39:15.779 benefit of experience you've got to identify 01:39:15.779 --> 01:39:18.909 hazards in advance As soon as you're speaking 01:39:18.909 --> 01:39:21.289 on the phone, your ability becomes the same as 01:39:21.289 --> 01:39:24.810 a novice driver. So you lose all of that because 01:39:24.810 --> 01:39:29.010 you're distracted. And that's what ends up causing 01:39:29.010 --> 01:39:31.829 us to, I guess, increase risk again when we're 01:39:31.829 --> 01:39:34.170 on the phone. That's amazing to hear. It does 01:39:34.170 --> 01:39:36.109 make so much sense. You're talking about that 01:39:36.109 --> 01:39:40.350 one person being disconnected from the situation 01:39:40.350 --> 01:39:43.930 versus a passenger. It's funny because I... Think 01:39:43.930 --> 01:39:46.869 about the comedians talking about having to turn 01:39:46.869 --> 01:39:48.789 the radio down when you're lost and you're looking 01:39:48.789 --> 01:39:51.310 for certain streets. And now you've just given 01:39:51.310 --> 01:39:54.510 us a psychology behind it. You need to have that 01:39:54.510 --> 01:39:57.069 brain quiet so you can focus on where you're 01:39:57.069 --> 01:39:59.050 going. But that always seemed such a laughable 01:39:59.050 --> 01:40:01.649 thing that at the moment you're focusing, you 01:40:01.649 --> 01:40:04.069 turn the stereo down. But now I understand the 01:40:04.069 --> 01:40:08.600 reason behind it. Yeah, it's exactly that. All 01:40:08.600 --> 01:40:10.199 right, well, I want to go to some closing questions 01:40:10.199 --> 01:40:12.640 before I let you go. The first one I love to 01:40:12.640 --> 01:40:15.239 ask, is there a book or are there books that 01:40:15.239 --> 01:40:17.659 you love to recommend? It can be related to our 01:40:17.659 --> 01:40:23.420 discussion today or completely unrelated. My 01:40:23.420 --> 01:40:28.539 go -to, and it is completely unrelated, I'm afraid. 01:40:30.060 --> 01:40:34.239 My go -to, the book that I read and it just really 01:40:34.239 --> 01:40:38.079 impacted on me. was Nelson Mandela's Long Walk 01:40:38.079 --> 01:40:48.140 to Freedom. I just think it's a story of just 01:40:48.140 --> 01:40:54.399 an incredible person that put so much into their 01:40:54.399 --> 01:40:58.619 life. I always think when I feel overwhelmed 01:40:58.619 --> 01:41:03.279 and tired with the work I'm doing, it's nothing 01:41:03.279 --> 01:41:05.079 compared to the amount of work he was putting 01:41:05.079 --> 01:41:09.310 in at the time. when he was trying to fight a 01:41:09.310 --> 01:41:13.010 regime and help people in his community and be 01:41:13.010 --> 01:41:14.789 a lawyer at the same time and things like that. 01:41:15.829 --> 01:41:19.430 And then deal with the adversity that he did 01:41:19.430 --> 01:41:24.550 and how he managed the complex nature of what 01:41:24.550 --> 01:41:29.430 was involved. But then I think it was the future 01:41:29.430 --> 01:41:33.869 aspect of... How he managed the not holding a 01:41:33.869 --> 01:41:36.390 grudge when he had the opportunity for power 01:41:36.390 --> 01:41:40.050 and to actually try and bring a country together. 01:41:41.609 --> 01:41:47.750 So many great aspects for you to learn from and 01:41:47.750 --> 01:41:50.890 think about. I think a lot of nations really 01:41:50.890 --> 01:41:53.430 need to kind of refine what a real leader looks 01:41:53.430 --> 01:41:56.029 like. I think we've lost our way in some of these 01:41:56.029 --> 01:42:01.489 areas. I'll just leave it there. What about film, 01:42:01.689 --> 01:42:09.510 television, documentaries? That's also a good 01:42:09.510 --> 01:42:21.989 one. Let's see. So I remember, I mean, I'm not 01:42:21.989 --> 01:42:24.510 sure how popular this guy is these days, but, 01:42:24.510 --> 01:42:29.029 you know, you had... Michael Moore's documentaries 01:42:29.029 --> 01:42:32.529 early in his career, like Flint, Michigan and 01:42:32.529 --> 01:42:35.810 stuff like that, which just at the time I was 01:42:35.810 --> 01:42:39.890 going through uni were, I thought were a different 01:42:39.890 --> 01:42:45.170 type of journalism to what you'd typically seen. 01:42:48.470 --> 01:42:52.510 You know, there's the film, I can't remember 01:42:52.510 --> 01:43:00.979 the name of it, but... about the plastics and... 01:43:00.979 --> 01:43:05.279 I'm losing it. I can't think of the term, but 01:43:05.279 --> 01:43:08.960 the plastics in all of our everyday equipment 01:43:08.960 --> 01:43:12.060 and our Teflon pans and stuff like that and on 01:43:12.060 --> 01:43:14.859 our carpets and all this sort of thing. I can't 01:43:14.859 --> 01:43:15.979 remember the name of that film. Is that what 01:43:15.979 --> 01:43:21.329 I mean? Dark Waters. I had the guy that was written 01:43:21.329 --> 01:43:23.329 about, Rob Ballot, the real lawyer on the show. 01:43:23.609 --> 01:43:27.550 That stuff is in our firefighter gear. So it's 01:43:27.550 --> 01:43:32.550 a big buzz topic at the moment. Yeah, that was 01:43:32.550 --> 01:43:34.489 a film that you're watching and then as you're 01:43:34.489 --> 01:43:35.710 watching it, you're looking around and you're 01:43:35.710 --> 01:43:43.170 going, ah, okay. I thought that was quite impactful 01:43:43.170 --> 01:43:47.020 as well. I like that. There is a company I've 01:43:47.020 --> 01:43:48.500 been working with, now I say working, I've had 01:43:48.500 --> 01:43:50.500 them on the show and been, you know, helping 01:43:50.500 --> 01:43:52.640 them as far as a fireside, but they're called 01:43:52.640 --> 01:43:56.039 Cambiotics. They are developing a probiotic that 01:43:56.039 --> 01:43:59.600 removes PFAS from the body, which hopefully later 01:43:59.600 --> 01:44:00.920 this year, they're actually going to be able 01:44:00.920 --> 01:44:03.760 to release. So that is encouraging because obviously 01:44:03.760 --> 01:44:06.140 being aware of what we're exposed to and trying 01:44:06.140 --> 01:44:08.020 to reduce that, like you said, nonstick pans 01:44:08.020 --> 01:44:10.659 and, you know, the sprays, the waterproofing 01:44:10.659 --> 01:44:12.909 sprays and some of these things, if we can. get 01:44:12.909 --> 01:44:15.609 those out of our home, but then also try and 01:44:15.609 --> 01:44:17.130 get some of these forever chemicals out of our 01:44:17.130 --> 01:44:20.029 body, then, you know, put some optimism in at 01:44:20.029 --> 01:44:23.670 least. That's, that's a very fascinating development. 01:44:24.050 --> 01:44:28.430 Yeah. Yeah. Do that. Absolutely. All right. Well, 01:44:28.489 --> 01:44:30.550 the next question, is there a person you'd recommend 01:44:30.550 --> 01:44:33.569 to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to 01:44:33.569 --> 01:44:35.689 the first responders, military and associated 01:44:35.689 --> 01:44:43.260 professions of the world? Well, I, I name -dropped 01:44:43.260 --> 01:44:47.359 my friend and colleague Jonathan Isani at Johns 01:44:47.359 --> 01:44:55.579 Hopkins. And I think your audience would love 01:44:55.579 --> 01:45:00.020 to hear from him. He's fantastic and has a very 01:45:00.020 --> 01:45:04.279 fresh approach to thinking about things. You'd 01:45:04.279 --> 01:45:08.500 probably have a lot of road safety element to 01:45:08.500 --> 01:45:13.579 it, but he's... He's got a really great mindset 01:45:13.579 --> 01:45:16.100 and way of thinking about things and mindfulness 01:45:16.100 --> 01:45:19.579 as well. So I think your audience would enjoy 01:45:19.579 --> 01:45:21.779 that. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're able to 01:45:21.779 --> 01:45:24.300 help me connect, I'd love to get him on. Will 01:45:24.300 --> 01:45:26.659 do. Thank you so much. All right. Well, then 01:45:26.659 --> 01:45:28.359 the last question before we make sure everyone 01:45:28.359 --> 01:45:31.399 knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress? 01:45:35.119 --> 01:45:39.739 So I'd love to say I get to go and... I play 01:45:39.739 --> 01:45:44.239 golf these days. I think that's probably my enjoyment 01:45:44.239 --> 01:45:48.479 space where I can just get away and not think 01:45:48.479 --> 01:45:50.220 about everything else that's going on in life 01:45:50.220 --> 01:45:54.500 and do that with friends. So I really do enjoy 01:45:54.500 --> 01:45:58.960 a game of golf. And I see that as the type of 01:45:58.960 --> 01:46:02.500 sport I can take into my older age as the more 01:46:02.500 --> 01:46:08.729 physical stuff reduces. The other cheesy answer 01:46:08.729 --> 01:46:11.869 is just I love spending time with my kids. It 01:46:11.869 --> 01:46:15.369 just refreshes your mind, challenges you every 01:46:15.369 --> 01:46:19.909 day, and keeps you on your toes. I don't think 01:46:19.909 --> 01:46:22.250 it's cheesy at all. I mean, what I talk about 01:46:22.250 --> 01:46:24.369 with the fire service when we're in this crisis 01:46:24.369 --> 01:46:26.550 at the moment, because obviously money is dangled 01:46:26.550 --> 01:46:30.310 in front of their faces as far as overtime premiums 01:46:30.310 --> 01:46:32.689 and things, but there is no greater currency 01:46:32.689 --> 01:46:35.899 than time with your children. So I couldn't agree 01:46:35.899 --> 01:46:37.819 more. I mean, that's how I decompress too. And 01:46:37.819 --> 01:46:42.000 my dog, she's pretty cool. Yeah. All right. Well, 01:46:42.039 --> 01:46:43.960 if people listening want to learn more about 01:46:43.960 --> 01:46:45.659 you, want to reach out to you, where are the 01:46:45.659 --> 01:46:50.180 best places online? Your easiest is probably 01:46:50.180 --> 01:46:55.619 on LinkedIn to connect, drop me a message. I'm 01:46:55.619 --> 01:47:01.779 happy to share email address and meet people 01:47:01.779 --> 01:47:10.060 that way. Yeah, I've gone from working at a large 01:47:10.060 --> 01:47:13.859 transport research organisation for many years 01:47:13.859 --> 01:47:16.979 to joining a start -up in the insurance world 01:47:16.979 --> 01:47:22.600 and trying to manage risk on the roads in telematics. 01:47:22.800 --> 01:47:27.319 And then it was acquired by Aon, so going into 01:47:27.319 --> 01:47:30.739 a large global organisation for a while. And 01:47:30.739 --> 01:47:34.060 then now I work independently. Just a consultant 01:47:34.060 --> 01:47:37.560 that works for myself and with a lot of clients 01:47:37.560 --> 01:47:41.460 around the world from Australia to a lot in the 01:47:41.460 --> 01:47:45.960 US as well and in the UK. And I work with governments 01:47:45.960 --> 01:47:48.819 and private organizations to try and improve 01:47:48.819 --> 01:47:52.020 things. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you 01:47:52.020 --> 01:47:53.960 so much. It's been such an interesting conversation, 01:47:54.199 --> 01:47:56.260 especially coming from the world of psychology. 01:47:56.619 --> 01:47:59.260 I mean, as you alluded to, like every moving 01:47:59.260 --> 01:48:02.000 vehicle, pretty much aside from drones and some 01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:04.479 of these Teslas, you know, has a human being 01:48:04.479 --> 01:48:07.380 in it. So there's been, you know, so much insight. 01:48:07.460 --> 01:48:10.539 I've learned so much when it comes to this safety 01:48:10.539 --> 01:48:12.899 issue. And I hope that this can be one of many 01:48:12.899 --> 01:48:15.199 conversations that finally, you know, is a critical 01:48:15.199 --> 01:48:18.840 mass. make change around the world. So I want 01:48:18.840 --> 01:48:20.880 to thank you so much for being so generous with 01:48:20.880 --> 01:48:22.500 your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 01:48:22.500 --> 01:48:25.939 podcast today. Delighted to. Thank you, James. 01:48:25.960 --> 01:48:26.600 Really appreciate it.