WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.760 Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:03.560 always, my name is James Geering, and this week 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:05.500 it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show 00:00:05.500 --> 00:00:08.599 14 -year veteran of the Royal Canadian Mounted 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:12.619 Police, songwriter and country artist Jonathan 00:00:12.619 --> 00:00:16.100 Williams. Now, in this conversation, we discuss 00:00:16.100 --> 00:00:19.440 a host of topics, from his original journey into 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:23.160 music, his transition into policing, some of 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.679 his notable career calls, addiction in Canada, 00:00:26.820 --> 00:00:30.699 his own mental health journey, his powerful transition 00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:34.380 story, catharsis through performing, and so much 00:00:34.380 --> 00:00:37.560 more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:40.420 as I say every week, please just take a moment, 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:43.840 go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:47.460 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:00:47.950 --> 00:00:51.469 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:00:51.469 --> 00:00:54.289 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:00:54.289 --> 00:00:57.750 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:00:57.750 --> 00:01:02.490 almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:01:02.490 --> 00:01:05.670 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:01:05.670 --> 00:01:08.870 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:11.870 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:01:12.349 --> 00:01:15.489 So with that being said, I introduce to you, 00:01:15.709 --> 00:01:39.409 Jonathan. Enjoy. Well, Jonathan, I want to start 00:01:39.409 --> 00:01:42.090 by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our 00:01:42.090 --> 00:01:44.390 mutual friend, Steve Farina, for making this 00:01:44.390 --> 00:01:46.549 introduction. And secondly, I want to welcome 00:01:46.549 --> 00:01:48.590 you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today. 00:01:49.150 --> 00:01:52.950 Oh, yeah. It's a pleasure and an honor to be 00:01:52.950 --> 00:01:55.829 here. And I'm just so grateful for that connection 00:01:55.829 --> 00:01:59.329 to be made. Absolutely. So where on planet Earth 00:01:59.329 --> 00:02:03.230 are we finding you today? We are in Vernon, British 00:02:03.230 --> 00:02:07.519 Columbia in Canada. How are you guys being affected 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:09.759 by this massive weather storm? Is it reaching 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:16.300 Canada or is it south of you? It's south. It's 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:20.580 quite mild here, which is quite nice. I also 00:02:20.580 --> 00:02:24.560 live halfway up to a ski resort called Silver 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:29.919 Star, and there is no snow. on the streets. And 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.659 usually there is. Usually I'm out there shoveling, 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.460 snowblowing, whatever it is, getting a good workout. 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:37.840 But no, this year, yeah, this year is quite wild. 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.240 So unless it's all building up and it's about 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:43.240 to hit me tomorrow and I'll be, yeah, meet a 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.520 liar. All right. Well, let's start at the very 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:50.240 beginning of your story then. So tell me where 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.099 you were born and tell me a little bit about 00:02:52.099 --> 00:02:54.300 your family dynamic, what your parents did, how 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:59.469 many siblings. Yeah, you bet. Yes, born in 1973 00:02:59.469 --> 00:03:06.650 in Vancouver, North Vancouver. And yeah, I have 00:03:06.650 --> 00:03:11.169 one sibling. His name is Jeremy Williams. And 00:03:11.169 --> 00:03:19.110 yeah, my parents divorced before I can even remember. 00:03:19.210 --> 00:03:21.349 So I really don't have any memory of dad being 00:03:21.349 --> 00:03:24.990 around. And we just followed mom around wherever 00:03:24.990 --> 00:03:28.400 she was going. British Columbia and we would 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:34.580 move kind of around BC. But yeah, it was an interesting 00:03:34.580 --> 00:03:39.500 childhood. I live in Vernon now because there 00:03:39.500 --> 00:03:44.120 were about seven or eight years that we lived, 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:49.120 my mom, my brother and I, in Kelowna, BC. And 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:53.870 those were the impressionable years. So after 00:03:53.870 --> 00:03:58.650 moving to Vancouver Island, I always had a heart 00:03:58.650 --> 00:04:01.530 for Kelowna and the Okanagan. It's a beautiful 00:04:01.530 --> 00:04:05.210 area. And so I always knew that I'd eventually 00:04:05.210 --> 00:04:09.669 end up here. And it was a complete life journey 00:04:09.669 --> 00:04:12.469 before I did get here. But it was also thanks 00:04:12.469 --> 00:04:16.829 to the RCMP of a certain amount of transfers 00:04:16.829 --> 00:04:19.930 that finally led to moving here to the Okanagan. 00:04:21.689 --> 00:04:28.810 Yeah. Childhood was great. It was the significant 00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:33.910 kind of point where I'll always remember is living 00:04:33.910 --> 00:04:36.949 on Vancouver Island and turning the age of 13. 00:04:37.069 --> 00:04:41.790 I had grown up listening to, and I have to thank 00:04:41.790 --> 00:04:45.069 both my parents for being really, they love music. 00:04:45.170 --> 00:04:50.009 They played it all the time. So I was. always 00:04:50.009 --> 00:04:52.550 listening to certain bands like the Eagles and 00:04:52.550 --> 00:04:55.790 Doobie Brothers and Steely Dan and Gordon Lightfoot. 00:04:55.970 --> 00:05:00.790 And so I just had this love and music that I 00:05:00.790 --> 00:05:05.949 wasn't even aware of. So when I turned 13, I 00:05:05.949 --> 00:05:11.430 decided to join the band in school. And the teacher 00:05:11.430 --> 00:05:13.350 there asked me what instrument I wanted to play. 00:05:13.490 --> 00:05:17.199 And at this time, I had been exposed to Van Halen, 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:22.079 Def Leppard and Iron Maiden. And so I said to 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:25.500 the teacher, well, I would love to play the electric 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:30.579 guitar. And she said, we haven't had that before. 00:05:30.980 --> 00:05:32.560 And then she looked around the class. She goes, 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:34.079 class, what do you think? Should we have an electric 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:39.639 guitar? And they said, yeah. So I got a six string 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:41.720 electric guitar. Really didn't know much about 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:45.879 it at all. but had to learn quickly because she 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:50.560 asked the entire band class to learn La Bamba. 00:05:51.500 --> 00:05:56.259 A Van Halen classic. Yeah. Well, the movie had 00:05:56.259 --> 00:05:58.120 come out, La Bamba, and it was all about Ritchie 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:01.500 Valens. Great film. But there's this amazing 00:06:01.500 --> 00:06:04.819 guitar solo in the middle of that song, and I 00:06:04.819 --> 00:06:09.240 struggled and I worked on it so much. But in 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:12.180 learning the instrument for that, It just became 00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:15.220 a love and a passion. I could hear and play the 00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:17.879 music that I remember growing up with. So we 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.939 toured regionally and I was this guitar hero 00:06:20.939 --> 00:06:23.139 that I would get up and play this guitar solo 00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:24.939 and all the parents would get up and they'd clap. 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:28.240 And at 13 years old, I was thinking, I'm a rock 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.920 star. This is what I want to do for my life. 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:37.279 So I just, yeah, I went home and I spent more 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.370 time. learning how to play this instrument than 00:06:40.370 --> 00:06:44.170 I did uh making friends and the friends that 00:06:44.170 --> 00:06:46.110 I did have they had to play an instrument otherwise 00:06:46.110 --> 00:06:50.810 they weren't cool to me so I uh yeah I learned 00:06:50.810 --> 00:06:53.470 everything that I could I learned Van Halen Bon 00:06:53.470 --> 00:06:55.410 Jovi came out and was learning that stuff and 00:06:55.410 --> 00:06:58.329 ultimately it was Iron Maiden I mean the chops 00:06:58.329 --> 00:07:02.110 that those guys have uh yeah I it was crazy there 00:07:02.110 --> 00:07:04.629 was there was times where I was so frustrated 00:07:04.629 --> 00:07:06.509 because it was just nearly impossible to play 00:07:06.509 --> 00:07:10.410 but I focused and I learned. And so years later, 00:07:10.569 --> 00:07:13.670 it was just playing with bands and performing. 00:07:13.870 --> 00:07:15.769 I was too young to play in bars, but because 00:07:15.769 --> 00:07:18.029 they needed a guitar player, I would be pulled 00:07:18.029 --> 00:07:21.949 in from the back entrance, do the show, and then 00:07:21.949 --> 00:07:24.750 kicked out. And I eventually moved to Victoria, 00:07:25.069 --> 00:07:29.970 British Columbia. And this was in the mid -90s 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:33.329 and up to the early 2000s. And it was during 00:07:33.329 --> 00:07:38.199 that time that I... I joined a couple of cover 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:41.939 bands, learned my guitar was stolen one year. 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:44.019 And then I thought, well, I'm not going to let 00:07:44.019 --> 00:07:45.639 that stop me. I'm going to be a lead singer. 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:49.500 So I looked in the paper and there was a band 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:51.819 that said looking for a lead vocalist for a cover 00:07:51.819 --> 00:07:55.160 band. I went, yeah. So I applied. I had no, aside 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:58.600 from just singing in the car and the shower, 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:01.550 I went and I auditioned and I got the part. And 00:08:01.550 --> 00:08:03.209 I couldn't believe it. So here we are. I'm a 00:08:03.209 --> 00:08:05.670 lead vocalist. No one knew I play guitar. And 00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:08.569 we're opening up for, there's a lot of Canadian 00:08:08.569 --> 00:08:13.529 legend artists that we open for. One of them 00:08:13.529 --> 00:08:17.379 is Kim Mitchell. uh colin james then there was 00:08:17.379 --> 00:08:21.040 5440 and uh it was amazing so we here we are 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:23.259 we're doing this and i finally had enough to 00:08:23.259 --> 00:08:25.720 buy a guitar the guitar came back and i kept 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.000 growing as an artist um and so it just i just 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.179 carried that momentum up and i had no plans to 00:08:32.179 --> 00:08:35.259 do anything else i i didn't i didn't uh go into 00:08:35.259 --> 00:08:37.620 post -secondary education i barely got through 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:39.659 high school because i was like i'm a rock star 00:08:39.659 --> 00:08:41.860 i don't need this stuff i'll be rich and famous 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:45.470 just you wait And then, yeah, so in Victoria, 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:49.470 I just lived working and kept doing music. I 00:08:49.470 --> 00:08:55.990 had, it was around the 90, 19, yeah, the late 00:08:55.990 --> 00:09:00.610 90s where I met my wife at the time and she wanted 00:09:00.610 --> 00:09:04.929 to sing and she was prettier than I was. So I 00:09:04.929 --> 00:09:07.330 thought, well, why don't we start a band? So 00:09:07.330 --> 00:09:09.570 she did that and we started playing and again, 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:13.240 we just started doing the circuit. And we recorded 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.019 music and it was doing great. And this was it. 00:09:16.059 --> 00:09:19.240 We were like building up. We were working with 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:20.940 certain people that had connections to Sony, 00:09:20.980 --> 00:09:23.419 Sony records, and we were going to be presented. 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.460 But after several years of, of performing and 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:30.159 writing music, it wasn't in her, her heart. Like 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:31.759 it was in mine. And she said, yeah, I'm done. 00:09:31.820 --> 00:09:34.320 I want to, I want to start a family. Like we're. 00:09:35.470 --> 00:09:38.409 Well, her point was that I was now 30 and I hadn't 00:09:38.409 --> 00:09:42.710 made it yet. It was a very valid point. But because 00:09:42.710 --> 00:09:48.049 I was hell -bent on this, yeah, being hit with 00:09:48.049 --> 00:09:50.769 that was my first real identity crisis because 00:09:50.769 --> 00:09:53.850 I don't know myself without a guitar in my hand 00:09:53.850 --> 00:09:56.850 or a microphone. So I thought, wow, what am I 00:09:56.850 --> 00:10:00.350 going to do? And in order to provide for a family 00:10:00.350 --> 00:10:02.789 and build a family, I needed benefits. I needed 00:10:02.789 --> 00:10:04.629 a job that could afford buying a house and stuff. 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.000 And I had no idea. But whatever it was that I 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:13.279 had to do, it had to fill that void because that 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.820 amount of purpose was now empty. And like, what 00:10:16.820 --> 00:10:19.059 else? I couldn't, I worked at a few jobs and 00:10:19.059 --> 00:10:22.279 it just didn't fill. You know, I just felt lost. 00:10:22.460 --> 00:10:28.399 And then I started working for, I was doing some 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:30.919 administrative work. It's funny. I did construction, 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.419 had long hair because it worked. And then, I 00:10:35.419 --> 00:10:38.279 got into administration and started working with 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:40.580 human resources. So here I am, I've learned to 00:10:40.580 --> 00:10:45.019 type at 82 words per minute. And I started working, 00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:47.120 and I can see when you look back, you can see, 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.879 okay, well, that's why it happened. But I started 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:54.440 working for a police agency in that area. And 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:58.080 I was typing and transcribing reports. And I 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.480 thought it was fascinating. Like, whoa, cool, 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:04.059 I get to get the dirt. and learn about policing 00:11:04.059 --> 00:11:06.779 from that front and and i even remember being 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:09.139 asked dude yeah what are you doing up here you 00:11:09.139 --> 00:11:12.000 should you want to come you should be a cop man 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:16.000 i went no i i i type what you guys do it's awful 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.200 i've seen some of the photos that you brought 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:24.159 up of like people dead from from uh crash scenes 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:29.970 and i i thought there's no way no way um But 00:11:29.970 --> 00:11:32.710 it was it was the seed that planted and I and 00:11:32.710 --> 00:11:34.610 I kind of thought, well, wait a minute, you know, 00:11:34.610 --> 00:11:38.570 like. That is a cool idea. And I remember seeing 00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:43.289 some police situation at the time and I was living 00:11:43.289 --> 00:11:47.750 in Vancouver and I saw this. I thought maybe 00:11:47.750 --> 00:11:51.230 that maybe maybe I don't know. I'll apply. And 00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:54.009 yeah, so I applied to the RCMP and it was an 00:11:54.009 --> 00:11:58.320 11 month application process where. Even that 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.580 was memorable. I don't know if they do all the 00:12:00.580 --> 00:12:07.279 same levels and steps to recruit as they do back 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:11.600 then, but I was excited. Finally, after all these 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.799 years, I was excited because I was going to do, 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:19.559 I was becoming something bigger than myself, 00:12:19.779 --> 00:12:24.669 really. And it was a sacrifice. It had more purpose 00:12:24.669 --> 00:12:26.370 and meaning because it wasn't just for myself. 00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:29.929 It was for the community and people. And so I 00:12:29.929 --> 00:12:33.509 was, yeah, I was really excited about this. Yeah, 00:12:33.610 --> 00:12:39.289 and 11 months later, I had my first child, my 00:12:39.289 --> 00:12:43.629 son. He was 16 weeks old when I got the call 00:12:43.629 --> 00:12:46.470 to go to depot. So in Canada, when you're hired 00:12:46.470 --> 00:12:49.389 within the RCMP, everyone, no matter where you 00:12:49.389 --> 00:12:52.279 are in the country. Uh, you are flown to Regina, 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.419 uh, Saskatchewan and you're there for six months 00:12:55.419 --> 00:13:00.399 at least, um, to do training. Um, and so my son 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.179 was just born. He was, I was just getting to 00:13:02.179 --> 00:13:04.480 know this little, little guy and, and off I went 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.200 and it was heartbreaking. Um, getting in the 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.480 plane, kissing him in the car and, and just like, 00:13:09.620 --> 00:13:12.639 oh my goodness, I'm leaving my. And again, becoming 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.059 a dad, that's, that's amazing. You, you now understand 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.559 love at such a deeper and sacrificial level than, 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.200 than any time. So here I am, I'm, you know, so 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:24.179 heart torn, crying all the way to, to Regina. 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.399 And I got there and it was, it was crazy just 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:32.980 to be immersed in a new location, totally different 00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:41.700 people. And being. trained but there was like 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.279 harsh discipline it was very paramilitary the 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:50.240 way they do it there um and the uh and it was 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:55.860 scary because this was my only chance at obtaining 00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:57.960 a career that i could see after working all of 00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:00.659 these years this was that i wanted so bad and 00:14:00.659 --> 00:14:03.759 i could during the weeks and months of training 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.720 you would see people not making it and they would 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:11.860 be um let go or they they would be um uh yeah 00:14:11.860 --> 00:14:14.659 they just it would drop out and i was seeing 00:14:14.659 --> 00:14:17.960 this and i could see the pressure um it was incredible 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:24.019 um but in the process i became uh i became different 00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:28.320 i was given the authority to um help people but 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.620 also take away their liberties and uh and it 00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:36.309 was such a an incredible opportunity and gift 00:14:36.309 --> 00:14:41.350 really to be given that type of authority within 00:14:41.350 --> 00:14:46.450 the country. And RCMP is a federal police organization. 00:14:46.529 --> 00:14:49.110 So it's not municipal and within the provinces, 00:14:49.149 --> 00:14:55.870 it's a federal agency. So the pressure to learn 00:14:55.870 --> 00:15:02.870 and become one was higher. And so the honor that 00:15:02.870 --> 00:15:08.169 I that I could see and feel during the process 00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:12.629 was something else too. They, um, we all, uh, 00:15:12.710 --> 00:15:15.590 we, we did a lot of marching. Uh, there's drill. 00:15:16.110 --> 00:15:19.950 Um, the other key factor that I wanted to do 00:15:19.950 --> 00:15:22.629 for not only myself, but my grandfather who's 00:15:22.629 --> 00:15:25.029 now passed, um, he was alive at the time and 00:15:25.029 --> 00:15:27.669 he always wanted my own father to become an RCMP 00:15:27.669 --> 00:15:33.200 officer. And at the time, uh, My dad was nearly 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.700 dragged by his ear to go to the recruitment. 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:44.500 But my dad, who is 5 '8", was too short. So they 00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:47.240 wouldn't hire people. And of course, that's changed 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.519 now. So when I went through, I'm the same height. 00:15:52.059 --> 00:15:56.600 So I phoned him up when I went and it was in 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:58.139 my first week of training. I said, hey, Pop. 00:15:59.199 --> 00:16:01.299 you'll never guess where I am at right now. He 00:16:01.299 --> 00:16:03.899 goes, oh, where are you? I said, Pop, I'm training 00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:07.179 to be an RCMP officer. It was silent. I could 00:16:07.179 --> 00:16:10.940 hear him holding back his tears. And he said, 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.240 Jonathan, you are giving me a gift. That is something 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.179 I've always wanted for myself because he was 00:16:17.179 --> 00:16:20.919 a volunteer police officer and fire, but he never 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:25.460 learned to read or write. He was, yeah, lived 00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:28.179 quite the life all the way from Newfoundland. 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:33.600 Anyway, so it was just so amazing to feel his 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.019 pride and my own. And so I finished the six months, 00:16:38.179 --> 00:16:40.799 went back home. I was a different person. I saw 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:44.200 life differently and constantly being exposed 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:53.679 to the reality of life in society. It is an absolute 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.740 shock. It really is. And sometimes I describe 00:16:57.740 --> 00:16:59.919 I've just described it this way to a lot of people 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:02.440 is that in the matrix, there's the blue pill 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.059 or the red pill and you take the red pill and 00:17:05.059 --> 00:17:09.000 you you see the truth. Right. And so when I became 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.319 and I started working with the police, I saw 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:17.980 the truth. I saw the darkness, the evil that's 00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:21.819 out there, the the betrayal, the lies, the way 00:17:21.819 --> 00:17:27.190 that things work. And it was. It was shocking 00:17:27.190 --> 00:17:30.450 because it was a bubble burster for me because 00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:31.970 I just thought, well, you know, I'm going to 00:17:31.970 --> 00:17:35.210 be a rock star and I have a family. But to be 00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:41.630 given the ability to actually see the world and 00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:44.349 that other side of it, which is a huge portion, 00:17:44.569 --> 00:17:49.569 was a lot to take. And so it took a while for 00:17:49.569 --> 00:17:52.089 me to kind of get used to it. It just became 00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:55.450 how I saw things, right? So you go through, you 00:17:55.450 --> 00:17:59.130 work, you only experience certain things that, 00:17:59.190 --> 00:18:02.049 again, aren't even made to the news. No one has 00:18:02.049 --> 00:18:05.009 an idea. And so in doing that, and you work with 00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:07.349 certain people that you become, and it's no wonder 00:18:07.349 --> 00:18:10.789 it's a brotherhood. Like you're fighting for 00:18:10.789 --> 00:18:13.569 your life in certain situations. The only one 00:18:13.569 --> 00:18:15.369 that's going to save you is your partner. And 00:18:15.369 --> 00:18:17.630 so that really creates a bonding experience. 00:18:19.369 --> 00:18:22.869 And so I loved it. I loved it. So I was working 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:26.670 in Burnaby, which is the east side of Vancouver 00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:29.829 and British Columbia. And I saw everything. Talk 00:18:29.829 --> 00:18:32.930 about my feet getting wet. I saw and experienced 00:18:32.930 --> 00:18:36.089 everything. It was amazing. And then from there, 00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:41.089 I transferred a few places around BC and I came 00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:44.490 to Armstrong, which is in the Okanagan here. 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.980 And, and throughout that process is, you know, 00:18:48.980 --> 00:18:50.619 so much that had to happen, but I need to kind 00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:53.079 of summarize what had happened, but there was, 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.339 there was the struggles of the marriage and the 00:18:55.339 --> 00:18:58.779 relationship and the, the sacrifice that you 00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:00.700 need to give for your kids and raising them up. 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.519 And that became the priority, but also I'm giving 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:08.980 the same, sometimes more time in my career because 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:11.819 it just demanded that you have to give everything 00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:15.029 even more. Because you are, you're sacrificing 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:20.450 your safety and everything. So it became this 00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:24.769 balancing act of personal life and work. And 00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:31.470 that in itself was new and hard to do it. It 00:19:31.470 --> 00:19:33.369 was never perfect. It was either one is getting 00:19:33.369 --> 00:19:38.789 more than the other. And both, because the family 00:19:38.789 --> 00:19:44.240 life was so... involving and required so much. 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:46.799 And there was certainly the struggles that were 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:53.440 going on there. I didn't have time to work on 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.099 that because I was dealing with lack of sleep. 00:19:58.420 --> 00:20:00.660 The pressures of the work, the things that I 00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:04.319 was seeing were so much more heavier and darker 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:09.730 than this. So this seemed easy. So when I was 00:20:09.730 --> 00:20:13.569 doing this policing, I wasn't going home and 00:20:13.569 --> 00:20:17.470 getting the support I needed to feel safe. I 00:20:17.470 --> 00:20:19.269 was just leaving that, going home and dealing 00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:22.130 with that and then going back and forth. And 00:20:22.130 --> 00:20:29.690 so that was the struggle for years. And so I 00:20:29.690 --> 00:20:33.190 didn't see that this was falling apart. And I 00:20:33.190 --> 00:20:36.109 didn't see that I had a tsunami of trauma and 00:20:36.109 --> 00:20:40.180 PTSD building. It was all like building up behind 00:20:40.180 --> 00:20:44.240 me. And then in 2017, it all crashed. Like the 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:49.319 relationship was broken. And also PTSD symptoms 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:56.299 were at a high now. I was, yeah, going to work 00:20:56.299 --> 00:21:01.200 crying. And then I'd be at work. I would see 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.880 something. I'd be numb to it. And then three 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.339 days later. The trauma of that occurrence, usually 00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:11.440 it's like a sudden death or dealing with the 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.180 grief of family when they see their loved ones 00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:20.079 dead. That would just, you know, come out. And 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.720 so, and it got worse. I couldn't put this together 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:25.799 because this was a falling apart. There was times 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.160 when I would be at work and I'd be talking with 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:29.660 someone and all of a sudden, oh my goodness, 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:32.599 I'm feeling sick. In full police uniform, in 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:35.470 a marked police vehicle. I was either going to 00:21:35.470 --> 00:21:37.029 throw up or I was going to bawl my eyes out. 00:21:37.109 --> 00:21:41.329 And it was that feeling was so, I didn't know. 00:21:41.509 --> 00:21:45.170 And that's when I realized this is serious. I 00:21:45.170 --> 00:21:48.690 have serious PTSD. I couldn't tell which one 00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:50.970 was worse. And then I would drive away not knowing 00:21:50.970 --> 00:21:53.710 what's going to happen. And then the bawling 00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:56.569 would come out uncontrollably and involuntarily. 00:21:56.589 --> 00:22:00.960 It would just come out. And it's hard to find 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.539 a hiding spot when you're in a police car. So 00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:06.259 I would, because I knew the town enough, I knew 00:22:06.259 --> 00:22:07.619 there were certain cul -de -sacs where I could 00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:12.200 zip out and let it out and have to wear sunglasses 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.019 to cover up the puffy eyes and stuff. But yeah, 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.920 but then I had to stop working because I reached 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.960 a point where I just couldn't, I couldn't do 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.259 it anymore. And James, like this is, that's where. 00:22:28.600 --> 00:22:34.779 That's where it all ended for me because I worked 00:22:34.779 --> 00:22:40.420 so hard to earn the right to wear the uniform, 00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:43.940 to have the authority and the responsibility. 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:48.619 And there was no other job that can do that. 00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:55.259 And now I couldn't do it. I was ashamed. I was 00:22:55.259 --> 00:22:58.670 embarrassed. And I couldn't talk to anyone about 00:22:58.670 --> 00:23:02.789 it. And people ask sometimes, well, you know, 00:23:02.829 --> 00:23:05.109 you're in policing. You should be getting help. 00:23:05.170 --> 00:23:06.670 Did you not see a counselor kind of throughout 00:23:06.670 --> 00:23:10.150 the years? And it's kind of a trick question 00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:14.829 is, well, yeah, I did. But when you're normal 00:23:14.829 --> 00:23:19.970 as that, you don't know. Because everyone else 00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.049 that you're working with is being exposed to 00:23:22.049 --> 00:23:24.609 the same thing. So, okay, this is normal. Dude, 00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:26.380 did that... was that disturbing or what? And 00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:29.980 yeah, yeah, man. Okay. Well, you don't have time 00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:36.720 off to the next thing. And so that being the 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.920 crisis and I, this was, this was like the key 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.440 point where I knew I was in trouble is because 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:48.839 a lot of sudden death investigations or suicides, 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:53.319 especially suicides. When I was standing over 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:59.680 that body. the question of like, what would ever 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:02.539 drive anyone to think that that was an answer, 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.700 that that was a good idea. And I couldn't make 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:10.019 sense of it. I couldn't. And they would leave 00:24:10.019 --> 00:24:12.039 me responsible for telling the family. There 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:13.559 was one instance where, yeah, I would have to 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.720 go and this old man wandered off and we found 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:19.500 him. And then I had to go back to the family 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:22.599 who were like, did you find him? Yeah. And then. 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:26.440 the news comes out and everyone crumbles and 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:30.039 you have to stand there solid. You know, I remember 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.000 like one tear kind of trying to get out, but 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:37.619 it was like, Nope. And the anger that I had to 00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:42.880 like, fuck you for making me responsible for 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.220 you and telling your family that that was your 00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:47.619 choice. They're going to remember this face for 00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:50.440 the rest of their lives. So I was mad. I was 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:54.500 mad at that. So there was a lot of, dealing with 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:56.380 watching their grief and taking that on, but 00:24:56.380 --> 00:24:58.599 also the responsibility of dealing with that. 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:02.680 And I, I was like for years, I was thinking, 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:08.220 I don't get it. But James, when I couldn't work 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:12.779 anymore and the family was crumbling, I couldn't 00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:15.599 work anymore because of the PTSD, my identity 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.980 was, was gone. And, and with that was the joy 00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:24.440 with that was the purpose. with that was everything 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:29.339 that i worked so hard for and i remember sitting 00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:35.259 there in my by myself and i i had that realization 00:25:35.259 --> 00:25:39.519 like that's where these people were right here 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:48.500 because why not no one cares i can't i'm not 00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:53.420 capable anymore um And that was the biggest challenge. 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:55.460 And it took years to get through. And I'm so 00:25:55.460 --> 00:25:59.200 glad I did because I was able to talk about it 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.740 and chat with others that were a few steps along 00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:07.680 the way in their healing process. But ultimately, 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:12.799 it was my faith. There was an encounter that 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.140 I had that was pretty significant. But it reminded 00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:20.180 me to keep going. This is just the valley that 00:26:20.180 --> 00:26:24.039 you're in. And you can't see forward, but you'll 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:28.680 heal. And the promise I got was your better years 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.240 are coming. So I had to believe in that promise. 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:38.980 And so, yeah, so here I am now, James. In the 00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:43.180 process of healing, a therapist said, well, what 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:46.599 did you do before you became a police officer? 00:26:48.019 --> 00:26:52.670 And I went, well. I was hellbent on being a rock 00:26:52.670 --> 00:26:55.950 star. I was going to be famous. No, I'm serious. 00:26:57.190 --> 00:27:00.829 So they said, well, have you tried playing, picking 00:27:00.829 --> 00:27:06.230 up your guitar again? No. And because there was 00:27:06.230 --> 00:27:12.849 no joy, I was like, why? Why bother? So, but 00:27:12.849 --> 00:27:14.529 that was a seed planted. I remember days later, 00:27:14.569 --> 00:27:17.069 I thought, you know, and I just happened to have 00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:21.559 my old guitar that I had. still had um i pulled 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:26.700 it out and there was a flame like there was a 00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:31.220 little ember there of oh i love this this this 00:27:31.220 --> 00:27:34.480 makes me feel good and it grew and then what 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.039 i realized that was the real me the real me that 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:45.700 i put aside to fulfill being a husband being 00:27:45.700 --> 00:27:48.940 a police officer and and doing that i realized 00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:52.140 that that was stuff that i put on i i loved it 00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:56.599 but it wasn't me like it wasn't the me so when 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.660 i the more i play guitar uh and started writing 00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:02.819 music it just came out so now this became a therapeutic 00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:08.039 process wow okay i found sunshine i found purpose 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:12.650 life joy and so i started working on that And 00:28:12.650 --> 00:28:14.670 this was during the time I was on a medical leave 00:28:14.670 --> 00:28:18.710 due to PTSD. And for two years, you know, yeah, 00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:22.349 for two years. So during that time, I just, I 00:28:22.349 --> 00:28:24.829 just focused because this was like, oh my goodness, 00:28:24.849 --> 00:28:26.410 I found something. I got to get out of this valley 00:28:26.410 --> 00:28:30.670 of pain and suffering and confusion. So I just 00:28:30.670 --> 00:28:35.130 learned how to produce music with the new ways 00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:38.569 of, and I use Logic Pro if anyone's does that 00:28:38.569 --> 00:28:41.569 stuff on their computer. um i started writing 00:28:41.569 --> 00:28:43.650 learning about music and i started writing songs 00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:45.890 and i started yeah doing that and really this 00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:49.490 was just again for therapy therapeutic purposes 00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:53.869 um and then people started listening and then 00:28:53.869 --> 00:29:01.690 um i was invited to play uh at a small pub here 00:29:01.690 --> 00:29:06.000 and and i thought i can't I can't do that because 00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.759 I hated society. I didn't want to go out. I spent 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.720 all my time inside because with that whole understanding 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:14.880 of seeing the world the way it was, especially 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.460 having it all crumble in and implode on me too. 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:22.519 I was like, no, no. Play and sing in front of 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:26.400 people who I don't care about. But I did it anyway. 00:29:26.500 --> 00:29:29.240 I was like, you know what? Yeah, why not? But 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:32.509 that became my exposure therapy. It became my 00:29:32.509 --> 00:29:35.670 way of letting go because the phantom uniform 00:29:35.670 --> 00:29:38.809 was still on. I could still feel the yellow stripes 00:29:38.809 --> 00:29:42.109 on my legs when I was walking into the pub to 00:29:42.109 --> 00:29:44.849 play for the first time. And my instincts were 00:29:44.849 --> 00:29:47.089 like, okay, who's the guy that's going to be 00:29:47.089 --> 00:29:48.730 a jackass? Who's the guy that we're going to 00:29:48.730 --> 00:29:51.769 have to subdue and make sure that I don't have 00:29:51.769 --> 00:29:53.950 to fight? But then I also felt, oh my goodness, 00:29:54.029 --> 00:29:58.990 I have no tools. I have no radio. And so I had 00:29:58.990 --> 00:30:01.069 to deal with that, that panic of anxiety and 00:30:01.069 --> 00:30:02.769 getting up on the stage and setting things up 00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:05.630 and hearing the ruckus and some drunk people 00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:07.769 in the corner. I was like, oh, this is hard. 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.089 This is really hard. And so I did it. I set up. 00:30:11.089 --> 00:30:13.289 I started playing. And people were clapping. 00:30:13.529 --> 00:30:16.910 And usually it's like, fuck you, pig. Piece of 00:30:16.910 --> 00:30:20.089 shit. Who called you? But it was like, woo -wee. 00:30:20.210 --> 00:30:23.809 Yeah, another one. And so that became new to 00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:28.410 actually be appreciated. to be wanted and i was 00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:33.369 wow so i was wearing that too the the no one 00:30:33.369 --> 00:30:36.170 wanted me around i was you know people how when 00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:38.450 they're forced with their consequences their 00:30:38.450 --> 00:30:40.930 bad decisions guess whose fault it was to take 00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:43.509 their license away guess whose fault it was to 00:30:43.509 --> 00:30:45.470 you know that their life is shit and that they're 00:30:45.470 --> 00:30:48.970 in jail right so so now i was receiving that 00:30:48.970 --> 00:30:51.170 so that was another healing element of like oh 00:30:51.170 --> 00:30:54.079 my goodness wow so that was part of the process. 00:30:54.259 --> 00:30:57.660 And so James, uh, in, in the couple of years 00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:00.799 of doing that, I performed more, I've written 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:05.279 more. Uh, I now have a music producer that I 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.640 work with here in Vernon who is connected with 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.460 the country scene in Canada. And so we've written 00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:14.140 music together. We've sent the music down to 00:31:14.140 --> 00:31:16.039 Nashville. It's recorded in Nashville. It's sent 00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:19.359 back. I do my singing and some guitar playing 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.160 on it. And then it's released. And it's now on 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:25.440 the radio. It's now playing on, well, I had one 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.019 song playing on Sirius XM. I couldn't believe 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:32.420 it. And this is just a therapeutic process. And 00:31:32.420 --> 00:31:35.140 the funny thing is, too, is that there are a 00:31:35.140 --> 00:31:39.539 lot of officers right now who think that Constable 00:31:39.539 --> 00:31:41.460 Williams just, you know, he found an easy way 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:43.930 out. He's using this benefit of being on medical 00:31:43.930 --> 00:31:46.710 leave to become a rockstar again. And I'm like, 00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:51.210 no, no, you have no idea. No idea. So it's just 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:54.569 amazing that when you, when who you are and you, 00:31:54.569 --> 00:31:59.410 and you follow that somehow you get favor because 00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:02.829 people want to know. And so, yeah, so the future 00:32:02.829 --> 00:32:07.009 now looks like this. 2016 is, I've got a brand 00:32:07.009 --> 00:32:08.569 new song that's going to be released. I have 00:32:08.569 --> 00:32:11.869 the radio station that's going to be, hosting 00:32:11.869 --> 00:32:15.109 the event. I'm the headliner. I have other artists 00:32:15.109 --> 00:32:16.490 that are going to be performing in the opening 00:32:16.490 --> 00:32:19.490 for me. And this will kick off another tour. 00:32:19.609 --> 00:32:22.769 And the big one here is in fall, I'm going to 00:32:22.769 --> 00:32:26.150 be connecting with and working with the RCMP 00:32:26.150 --> 00:32:28.670 Veterans Association and the National Police 00:32:28.670 --> 00:32:33.130 Force to give an account, give my story. Because 00:32:33.130 --> 00:32:37.619 what I didn't realize too is that to, to, to 00:32:37.619 --> 00:32:40.619 share this is, is, is giving hope to others that 00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:43.559 are right where I am. And I've gotten calls from 00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.240 other members and I've, I've pointed them in 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:46.900 the right direction. And some even went to the 00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:49.720 same five week rehabilitation program that I 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.660 went. It's called a diversity rehabilitation 00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:56.460 here. And that's, that's how I met Steve. And 00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:58.799 that's how I met other, other people that were 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:03.160 huge mental health advocates. And wow, dude, 00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:07.380 like. I met, I have a new family now. I have 00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:12.039 a purpose and, and I'm living and I'm right back 00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.079 to where I was when I was 20 again, but it's, 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:18.359 it's coming true. It's amazing. So yeah. Wow. 00:33:18.500 --> 00:33:22.940 Like if there's any, yeah, any, any, anything 00:33:22.940 --> 00:33:25.880 I could say after all of that too, it's just 00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:30.279 hold on, hold on. You know, this, it will make 00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:35.420 you so you'll love life even more. Because you'll 00:33:35.420 --> 00:33:37.680 have been exposed to it. And all of those scars 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:44.240 that I had that were, that left me hating society, 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:48.500 hating people, not trusting, being betrayed, 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:52.759 losing and stuff. They became now badges, not 00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:54.960 scars anymore. They became badges where it's 00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.759 like, I can fucking do this. This is awesome. 00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:02.980 Yeah. So there you have it. Love it. Well, I'm 00:34:02.980 --> 00:34:06.000 going to go all the way back to early life. I've 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.500 got several things I want to ask you, but now 00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:11.900 as you sit here with a 2026 lens, having found 00:34:11.900 --> 00:34:14.099 some therapeutic elements that really helped 00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:17.369 you out of the darkness. And understanding that 00:34:17.369 --> 00:34:19.949 most of us that put a uniform on were actually 00:34:19.949 --> 00:34:22.789 driven to that profession somewhat because of 00:34:22.789 --> 00:34:24.849 struggles in early life. And, you know, whether 00:34:24.849 --> 00:34:26.409 it's wanting to be part of something, whether 00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:28.570 it's want to, you know, be there to protect people, 00:34:28.670 --> 00:34:30.909 be so busy that you're filling a void. There's 00:34:30.909 --> 00:34:32.289 all these different elements that contribute. 00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:36.230 When you reflect back now, were there any elements 00:34:36.230 --> 00:34:38.289 of your early life you think that contributed 00:34:38.289 --> 00:34:45.889 to the PTSD and uniform? Yeah, absolutely. There 00:34:45.889 --> 00:34:48.190 is abandonment, which is something I remember 00:34:48.190 --> 00:34:52.949 experiencing at a young age. And it really made 00:34:52.949 --> 00:34:58.730 betrayal that much more harsher to experience. 00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:04.190 But the purpose, and I realized that becoming 00:35:04.190 --> 00:35:08.429 a musician and wanting to be a rock star is in 00:35:08.429 --> 00:35:14.679 a way proving to myself that I am worth. that 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:18.699 I'm worth love I'm worth all of those things 00:35:18.699 --> 00:35:21.139 and I didn't I didn't know that I I believed 00:35:21.139 --> 00:35:24.940 I didn't and and it that caused me to be in certain 00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:29.960 relationships that uh never were fulfilling because 00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:36.579 I I was at a position where I kept serving um 00:35:36.579 --> 00:35:41.059 thinking that that is going to validate my existence 00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:44.300 and and meaningfulness and Deserving of love. 00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:49.300 Yeah, no, it wasn't. And no wonder that these 00:35:49.300 --> 00:35:54.659 high achievements was what I needed to satisfy 00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:59.300 and tell myself that I'm worth something. I've 00:35:59.300 --> 00:36:01.820 had such a diverse spectrum of guests. And as 00:36:01.820 --> 00:36:04.679 far as trauma, everything from being a middle 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.579 child and just not feeling loved. And I've witnessed 00:36:07.579 --> 00:36:10.320 that particular family. And I saw that very element 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.360 that my friend was suffering from. all the way 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:16.719 through to a young, well, now kind of my age, 00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:19.400 a boy from Sierra Leone who was forced to be 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.480 a boy soldier after his parents were murdered. 00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:25.460 So on paper, you know, one seems worse than the 00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:28.360 other, but to those individuals, each is equally 00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:32.760 as damaging. But with so many people that one 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:37.559 or both parents left or they were adopted before 00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:39.860 they even knew the parents or one or both parents 00:36:39.860 --> 00:36:42.719 were addicts or in prison, there's this constant 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.699 feeling of why wasn't I good enough? Whether 00:36:45.699 --> 00:36:47.480 it was good enough for them to stay, good enough 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:50.400 for them not to use the bottle or the needle. 00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.739 And then they end up chasing exactly like you're 00:36:53.739 --> 00:36:56.820 talking about, that validation of I am good enough. 00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.380 And I think sadly, going back to the industry 00:36:59.380 --> 00:37:01.920 that you're in now, our musicians, our actors, 00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:03.780 you know, they get to this pinnacle where they're 00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:06.900 adored by millions and millions of people. And 00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:08.980 in many, many cases, Chester Bennington, for 00:37:08.980 --> 00:37:11.579 example, it still wasn't enough because we never 00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:13.940 got to that thing beneath the thing, as they 00:37:13.940 --> 00:37:18.280 say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an amazing piece 00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.280 of wisdom that it takes sometimes a lifetime 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.360 to understand. Absolutely. Well, speaking of 00:37:24.360 --> 00:37:27.840 addiction, you mentioned Burnaby. I had the same 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:30.940 exact thing. I was a farm boy from England, grew 00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:33.099 up with sheep and horses and all that stuff. 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.639 And then fast forward a few years. Now I'm an 00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:38.340 American firefighter working in these urban sprawls 00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:39.920 and seeing exactly what you're talking about. 00:37:40.809 --> 00:37:43.309 When I think of Vancouver, I've actually got 00:37:43.309 --> 00:37:45.969 Dr. Gabor Mate coming on the show soon. But I 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:49.170 think of the addiction epidemic, the opioid crisis 00:37:49.170 --> 00:37:52.210 that you guys have there. What were some of the 00:37:52.210 --> 00:37:55.329 ahas when the curtain of society was pulled back 00:37:55.329 --> 00:37:59.369 to your previously somewhat innocent eyes? Right. 00:38:00.630 --> 00:38:07.949 Yeah. Again, that is another shadow in the dark 00:38:07.949 --> 00:38:12.019 that people aren't. aware of um and we we saw 00:38:12.019 --> 00:38:15.820 it all the time i can't count how many um sudden 00:38:15.820 --> 00:38:19.159 deaths that i went to because of overdose oh 00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:21.820 here's another one even the coroner um multiple 00:38:21.820 --> 00:38:24.099 times you again you know i'm like hey another 00:38:24.099 --> 00:38:26.880 one yeah yeah it was an absolute crisis and this 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.679 was in uh it really i was in the okanagan here 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:33.659 at the time um and this was between the years 00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:39.500 of uh uh, 2015 and 2017. Uh, and it was, it was 00:38:39.500 --> 00:38:43.719 awful. Um, and I remember having, uh, I had arrested 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:46.059 a dealer and I had them in the back of my car. 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:51.019 Um, and, and I, I like to open up the conversation, 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.179 you know, just to have them talk about stuff 00:38:53.179 --> 00:38:55.099 and not for the purpose of, I mean, sometimes 00:38:55.099 --> 00:38:56.539 it's helpful because it's like, Oh, that's a 00:38:56.539 --> 00:39:01.340 piece of evidence. Thank you very much. But sometimes 00:39:01.340 --> 00:39:04.949 it's, it's like, so why? dude, why? Uh, it was 00:39:04.949 --> 00:39:09.690 fentanyl. So fentanyl was, uh, was the drug of 00:39:09.690 --> 00:39:12.690 choice, um, that was being brought in. And, and, 00:39:12.769 --> 00:39:15.349 you know, of course, when you learn it, uh, through 00:39:15.349 --> 00:39:17.610 the news, like that's awful. Why would people 00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:22.909 do this? So I had, uh, I had the dealer in the 00:39:22.909 --> 00:39:28.329 back of my car and I said, do you realize probably 00:39:28.329 --> 00:39:31.469 and kind of wonder how many deaths you're responsible 00:39:31.469 --> 00:39:35.800 for? for bringing this into our community. And 00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:39.219 because, you know, a lot of them are on high 00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:41.860 on their own stuff and they've been awake for 00:39:41.860 --> 00:39:45.380 three, four days. He was just kind of like, yeah, 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:49.380 well, you know, that's dude, like that's what 00:39:49.380 --> 00:39:52.360 they want. What do you mean? It was, that's what 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.900 they want. I have other things. They ask for 00:39:54.900 --> 00:40:00.780 it specifically. Wow. You know, incredible. And 00:40:01.210 --> 00:40:06.809 And to know that that's happening, you know, 00:40:06.809 --> 00:40:13.789 again, it's hard to have that perception because 00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:19.650 there is, it's almost like, well, it actually 00:40:19.650 --> 00:40:23.989 is, society's living in their own bubble. And 00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:29.010 so when you become a first responder and you 00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:32.219 see all the things that people don't, It's hard 00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:35.699 not to think everyone is ignorant. And this is 00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:38.239 part of the reason why it's hard to actually 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:41.579 have friends that aren't first responders. Because 00:40:41.579 --> 00:40:43.599 they'll ask the dumb questions and they won't 00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:51.119 know. And it's not an arrogant feeling of like, 00:40:51.179 --> 00:40:54.960 you know, don't get it. There's the weight that 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.480 you carry with that, too. And they can't connect. 00:40:59.289 --> 00:41:03.829 And so it's, it's no, yeah, it's no fault of 00:41:03.829 --> 00:41:08.329 theirs. It's just, yeah, you really become a 00:41:08.329 --> 00:41:11.530 different person. And again, it's, it's an honor. 00:41:11.809 --> 00:41:13.610 It's a privilege. I would definitely do it again. 00:41:13.710 --> 00:41:17.369 And I loved every year that I spent, but yeah. 00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:25.010 Wow. To, to have that experience and to be given 00:41:25.010 --> 00:41:30.960 that. entrusted with that level of responsibility. 00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:37.579 Yeah, it really makes you different. What really 00:41:37.579 --> 00:41:40.460 gets me, when I first came to America, it was 00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:45.420 2002. And ironically, a couple of years into 00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:49.860 that, my ex... had worked for this physician 00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:51.940 when we were down south florida broward county 00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:54.659 which uh if anyone is familiar with the you know 00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:57.139 the the genesis of this crisis that will ring 00:41:57.139 --> 00:42:00.380 a bell but this she she was basically getting 00:42:00.380 --> 00:42:02.739 all these people from all over the country coming 00:42:02.739 --> 00:42:04.980 and he was doing you know writing prescriptions 00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:07.579 and then sending them back to you know new jersey 00:42:07.579 --> 00:42:11.260 new england wherever it was and luckily she kind 00:42:11.260 --> 00:42:13.690 of didn't really figure it out so much it just 00:42:13.690 --> 00:42:15.309 felt like this isn't right there's something 00:42:15.309 --> 00:42:18.150 wrong with this and so she stepped away and that 00:42:18.150 --> 00:42:20.690 was not too long before the pill mills and some 00:42:20.690 --> 00:42:23.849 of these other things were taken down but when 00:42:23.849 --> 00:42:26.730 you look at the you know where we are now is 00:42:26.730 --> 00:42:28.829 oh these addicts you know why don't they just 00:42:28.829 --> 00:42:30.429 you know wake up one day and get a job and make 00:42:30.429 --> 00:42:33.289 good choices but you look at the origin story 00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:37.710 of purdue farmer with their fda approved oxycontin 00:42:38.139 --> 00:42:41.079 and how they deliberately targeted mining towns 00:42:41.079 --> 00:42:43.440 and places where industry was starting to fail. 00:42:43.579 --> 00:42:47.099 And there was a mental health crisis, which was 00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:50.960 exactly what the cartels mirrored, you know, 00:42:50.980 --> 00:42:53.139 after the pill mills were closed down with their 00:42:53.139 --> 00:42:55.340 black tar heroin. And then here we are with fentanyl. 00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:58.079 And it just breaks my heart because it's not 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:00.099 that these, you know, kindergartners said, what 00:43:00.099 --> 00:43:01.360 do you want to be when you grow up? Oh, I want 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.139 to be an addict. Me too. Let's go try fentanyl. 00:43:04.409 --> 00:43:07.110 You know, there's this childhood trauma and all 00:43:07.110 --> 00:43:09.130 these other things that lead you to then this 00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:11.110 introduction of this pill that should never have 00:43:11.110 --> 00:43:13.289 been prescribed the way it was prescribed. And 00:43:13.289 --> 00:43:15.130 now you've got the perfect storm for the beginning 00:43:15.130 --> 00:43:19.369 of addiction. Exactly. Yeah. Profound. It really 00:43:19.369 --> 00:43:24.989 is. And it's hard for people to get trusted information 00:43:24.989 --> 00:43:27.250 about that, too, because, you know, the media 00:43:27.250 --> 00:43:30.550 will spin it a certain way. Other people that 00:43:30.550 --> 00:43:34.300 have experience will spin it a certain way. And 00:43:34.300 --> 00:43:38.239 it's hard to even share with my kids. They were 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:42.599 so young, they really didn't know what it was 00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:45.940 like to have a dad as a police officer. But now 00:43:45.940 --> 00:43:49.780 that they're entering into their teens, my daughter 00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:52.739 says, Dad, I wish you were still working. Why? 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:54.579 Because you could take me out on the police car. 00:43:54.820 --> 00:43:57.059 Oh, yeah, of course. And she can't no longer 00:43:57.059 --> 00:43:58.980 say, well, you better be nice to me. Otherwise, 00:43:59.059 --> 00:44:01.199 I'll get my dad out to you type thing. So that's 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:05.969 funny. But yeah. How do you prepare the people 00:44:05.969 --> 00:44:09.429 in your life that are closest to you for that 00:44:09.429 --> 00:44:14.809 without giving them the weight that you would 00:44:14.809 --> 00:44:18.190 carry, right? You almost have to like, ah, how 00:44:18.190 --> 00:44:20.590 do I explain this in a way that you can still 00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:24.829 enjoy life and not hate people, but be well -informed, 00:44:24.909 --> 00:44:29.349 right? And it comes all the way to not only drugs, 00:44:29.369 --> 00:44:32.420 but also predators on the internet. You know, 00:44:32.420 --> 00:44:34.880 the people that are playing Roblox and other 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.280 games. And I would be hearing that my kids are 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.880 playing this. And I, you know, I just, it's so 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.199 hard. And there's that stress. And of course, 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.039 data, it says I can't play it anymore. And you 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.800 become the bad guy, even though I'm protecting 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:54.199 you. Right. So, yeah. I've written two books, 00:44:54.219 --> 00:44:56.219 and the most recent one I'm in the process of 00:44:56.219 --> 00:44:58.980 turning into a TV show. Still very early stages. 00:44:59.139 --> 00:45:01.199 It's not going to be out on Amazon next week 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:04.780 by any means. But what is so frustrating, and 00:45:04.780 --> 00:45:06.400 you can see this is almost what you were alluding 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.619 to a second ago, is... you know, people say, 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:11.079 for example, what's the worst thing that you've 00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:13.039 seen, you know, and it's a careful what you wish 00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:14.679 for. If you could do like they do in some of 00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:16.059 the films, you know, they put their hand on the 00:45:16.059 --> 00:45:17.760 person's head and they relive all your shit. 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:19.639 And then they, you know, crying in a ball on 00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:20.980 the floor is like, well, you fucking asked me, 00:45:21.019 --> 00:45:25.460 but it's so I'm like, well, how can we do that 00:45:25.460 --> 00:45:27.619 in a more gentle way? And this is what I'm, I'm 00:45:27.619 --> 00:45:30.360 going to be doing with this because when it comes 00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:32.880 to law enforcement, I've had a lot of people 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:34.900 say the wire. And if you ever watched that show, 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.340 but that was one of the closest things to actually 00:45:37.340 --> 00:45:40.730 seeing. And what I, love about that show is that 00:45:40.730 --> 00:45:43.809 you're not just seeing a cop drama you're seeing 00:45:43.809 --> 00:45:46.190 you know the households of the kids that become 00:45:46.190 --> 00:45:48.369 the dealers you're seeing the failed loss you 00:45:48.369 --> 00:45:50.730 know the court system and you know the politics 00:45:50.730 --> 00:45:52.949 behind it and really telling the whole story 00:45:52.949 --> 00:45:54.889 and i think that's it because we do live in a 00:45:54.889 --> 00:45:58.170 bubble absolutely and we don't have to see them 00:45:58.170 --> 00:46:01.519 show them everything Because then we'd have everyone 00:46:01.519 --> 00:46:05.199 with PTSD. But you can really give people the 00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:08.340 raw view because there's so much to learn from 00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:12.099 the fire, the police, the EMS, the dispatchers, 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:17.099 the people in the jails. Those are the people 00:46:17.099 --> 00:46:21.280 that see society as it is, which is a great cautionary 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.039 tale. But like, hey, all these things that you 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.039 say are working aren't working. We need to do 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.719 things differently. So I think there's so much 00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:31.269 value in... allowing people to see some of the 00:46:31.269 --> 00:46:34.730 things that we see in a digestible way so that 00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:37.329 we can then start forcing change because a politician 00:46:37.329 --> 00:46:39.130 is going to get there and tell you, oh, crime's 00:46:39.130 --> 00:46:41.360 gone down. But you have the officers in that 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:43.199 city going, what the fuck are they talking about? 00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:45.380 We just took, as you said, our eighth person 00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:47.460 to the morgue from murder, from overdose, whatever 00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:49.920 the thing is. So I think it's really important 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.380 to give our first responders the voices to just 00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:56.860 say it, tell it the way it is, you know, so that 00:46:56.860 --> 00:46:59.699 then the average person can understand, like 00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:01.840 you said, be wary of certain things they need 00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:04.500 to be wary of. But also, if there's an issue 00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:06.340 that's not being fixed, that we can actually 00:47:06.340 --> 00:47:10.679 fight to fix it. Yeah. Exactly. And this is why 00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:15.559 I love listening to podcasts such as this, James, 00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:19.739 because it's a community where we can be a part 00:47:19.739 --> 00:47:23.760 of. Sure, you're just a listener, but wow, when 00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:26.360 someone is explaining something that they went 00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:30.940 through and they hit on stuff that you felt deeply 00:47:30.940 --> 00:47:34.719 and alone in, it's like, wow, okay. There's so 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.389 much healing to that. And so providing this, 00:47:37.449 --> 00:47:41.650 James, yeah, bravo. This is so good. Well, like 00:47:41.650 --> 00:47:43.510 I said, hopefully on the screen, a lot more people 00:47:43.510 --> 00:47:45.929 watch TV than they do listen to podcasts and 00:47:45.929 --> 00:47:48.210 even less people read. So the book is great, 00:47:48.269 --> 00:47:51.449 but my goal is to grab people by the throat through 00:47:51.449 --> 00:47:56.130 cinema. You mentioned about the struggles though. 00:47:56.909 --> 00:48:00.210 One of the conversations, and we're basically 00:48:00.210 --> 00:48:02.769 the same age, so when we were younger, you would 00:48:02.769 --> 00:48:05.239 hear people say suicide is... You know, it's 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:08.679 cowardly. It's selfish. Think of your family. 00:48:08.780 --> 00:48:12.360 How could you? And then I start a podcast and 00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.739 I listen to people who, you know, were right 00:48:14.739 --> 00:48:17.260 there at that point. And some of them went through 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:19.260 with their attempt and survived. And thank God, 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:21.440 most of them were pulled back at the last minute. 00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:25.760 And there's two common denominators that basically 00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:28.980 are there at every single story. One is a clear 00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:31.380 wanting for the suffering to end. They're tired. 00:48:31.780 --> 00:48:34.230 They're just, you know. They don't have the energy 00:48:34.230 --> 00:48:37.309 anymore. But the other side, which is rarely, 00:48:37.329 --> 00:48:42.409 rarely discussed, is through the perfect storm 00:48:42.409 --> 00:48:44.769 of all things, because it's not a thing. It's 00:48:44.769 --> 00:48:46.989 not that you saw what you saw in the job. It's 00:48:46.989 --> 00:48:49.750 the unaddressed childhood trauma. It's the sleep 00:48:49.750 --> 00:48:52.130 deprivation that you alluded to, you know, the 00:48:52.130 --> 00:48:54.530 organizational betrayal, the side effects of 00:48:54.530 --> 00:48:57.409 meds and alcohol and, you know, insert all these 00:48:57.409 --> 00:48:59.289 things, relationship problems, finances, and 00:48:59.289 --> 00:49:03.960 now you have this perfect storm. It seems that 00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.880 the brain becomes so miswired that their entire 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:10.920 reality is distorted to the point where they 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:14.400 truly believe that they are the reason that their 00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:17.019 family are hurting. And if they just remove themselves. 00:49:17.949 --> 00:49:20.010 Everyone else would be happy in that distorted 00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:23.449 state, making suicide arguably courageous and 00:49:23.449 --> 00:49:26.010 selfless. And then in your community, you've 00:49:26.010 --> 00:49:28.550 got the means of suicide on your hip as well, 00:49:28.590 --> 00:49:30.889 which makes it even worse. Now to the healthy 00:49:30.889 --> 00:49:32.929 mind, obviously that doesn't make any sense, 00:49:32.989 --> 00:49:34.969 but we're not talking about a healthy mind. We're 00:49:34.969 --> 00:49:38.389 talking about a mind that's been degraded. So 00:49:38.389 --> 00:49:40.530 with your own personal journey, did you have 00:49:40.530 --> 00:49:43.750 any of those whispers in your mind too? Absolutely. 00:49:43.909 --> 00:49:48.159 Yeah. That point where I lost everything. um, 00:49:48.380 --> 00:49:52.860 and couldn't do anything and, and felt, uh, yeah, 00:49:52.940 --> 00:49:55.219 that loss of joy. Amazing. You know, just that 00:49:55.219 --> 00:49:59.960 three lettered word joy. When, uh, when I experienced 00:49:59.960 --> 00:50:06.280 that to be empty, gone, um, there was, it was 00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:09.280 the lack of purpose. It was the, the lack of, 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:12.940 uh, understanding, uh, where I was. And you're, 00:50:12.940 --> 00:50:17.369 you're exactly right, James, because If I was 00:50:17.369 --> 00:50:22.590 to do a pulse check on my mental health, on where 00:50:22.590 --> 00:50:25.210 I was, I would be able to list, okay, wait a 00:50:25.210 --> 00:50:29.510 minute, hang on. I haven't slept in days. I'm 00:50:29.510 --> 00:50:31.969 on medications to help with that, and I'm still 00:50:31.969 --> 00:50:38.650 balancing that out. I'm alone. I don't care to 00:50:38.650 --> 00:50:41.750 eat. I don't want to do anything. And the depression 00:50:41.750 --> 00:50:48.130 is really, it's a... it's a physical weight that 00:50:48.130 --> 00:50:50.730 doesn't reach a certain point. It just gets heavier 00:50:50.730 --> 00:50:56.289 and heavier. And so, yeah, there were moments 00:50:56.289 --> 00:51:00.730 where I, I too reached that point of like, I, 00:51:00.849 --> 00:51:03.849 I don't think anyone would care. I, I don't care. 00:51:04.409 --> 00:51:10.030 I didn't, I didn't get to the point of now thinking 00:51:10.030 --> 00:51:14.309 about it because being an officer and apprehending 00:51:14.309 --> 00:51:18.289 people. under the mental health act i knew the 00:51:18.289 --> 00:51:21.449 warning signs so i kind of stopped myself from 00:51:21.449 --> 00:51:27.550 thinking of the means of how to do it um but 00:51:27.550 --> 00:51:30.789 if something happened to me i'd be like yeah 00:51:30.789 --> 00:51:37.750 i don't care um and so yeah it's it's a i i'm 00:51:37.750 --> 00:51:39.909 in some ways now when i look back i'm glad i 00:51:39.909 --> 00:51:42.070 understand that because when you do talk to some 00:51:42.070 --> 00:51:48.440 people um they trust you With your advice. And 00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:51.579 that was the other hard thing too. Being in therapy 00:51:51.579 --> 00:51:54.579 is the therapists and counselors and psychologists 00:51:54.579 --> 00:52:00.920 that I spoke to. I, I was listening to them, 00:52:00.940 --> 00:52:03.900 but I'd be like, yeah, that's great advice and 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:08.980 all. I, but I would want that advice coming from 00:52:08.980 --> 00:52:13.699 someone who knows what I'm feeling. I, yeah. 00:52:13.900 --> 00:52:16.019 And so there, it took a while for me to trust 00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:18.639 even the people that were trying to help me because 00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:22.019 you're alone in it. You are like, have you ever 00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:24.659 experienced that? Have you, you know, well, doctors, 00:52:24.820 --> 00:52:26.920 you know, they go through that too. Yeah. Doctors 00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:30.059 have the safety of the hospital. I have to get 00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:32.420 in a car with a gun on my, and go to this person's, 00:52:32.420 --> 00:52:36.349 the crazy person's house. Like. so the the stakes 00:52:36.349 --> 00:52:39.869 are so much higher so anyway yeah so i i just 00:52:39.869 --> 00:52:42.309 i would it took a while for me to begin there 00:52:42.309 --> 00:52:46.829 was one particular therapist that uh i connected 00:52:46.829 --> 00:52:49.869 with um and that was during the the five weeks 00:52:49.869 --> 00:52:53.130 of uh a therapy that i did uh in -house with 00:52:53.130 --> 00:52:57.269 diversified um and it was the consistency and 00:52:57.269 --> 00:53:01.570 it was and this is why i i i wish i would want 00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:06.309 anyone don't wait until it like falls apart. 00:53:06.530 --> 00:53:09.230 I would, I wouldn't want, I'd be an advocate 00:53:09.230 --> 00:53:12.090 to say, okay, every three years, guys, you're 00:53:12.090 --> 00:53:14.750 going, you're going to have a, um, a week stay 00:53:14.750 --> 00:53:17.789 so that you can actually feel safe. Because one 00:53:17.789 --> 00:53:22.630 of the, one of the things that I found worked 00:53:22.630 --> 00:53:26.849 the most is that I was able to accept advice 00:53:26.849 --> 00:53:31.429 and help because I had been in a place long enough. 00:53:31.429 --> 00:53:34.300 It was outside of my own home. But I was in a 00:53:34.300 --> 00:53:37.280 place long enough where I finally felt I could 00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:41.119 trust the people. And then I felt safe. And then 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:45.199 I realized, oh, that took two weeks for my guard 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.559 to go down. Right? Because we're always, oh, 00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:51.360 got to go. That's why it's like, well, have you 00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:53.559 seen your counselor? Yeah. I spent an hour in 00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:55.739 her office. Sure, I shared a couple things. But 00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:57.480 the thing is, I got to put the guard back on 00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:01.079 and get out. So to have five weeks where you... 00:54:01.289 --> 00:54:04.110 um you go and you're just there and you're processing 00:54:04.110 --> 00:54:07.869 wow one of the therapists told me he said well 00:54:07.869 --> 00:54:12.250 i said i'm i've been off for two years i get 00:54:12.250 --> 00:54:15.130 it i'm starting to get this like oh like some 00:54:15.130 --> 00:54:17.369 there has to be a change or a decision either 00:54:17.369 --> 00:54:21.349 i'm going back to work or i'm retiring and the 00:54:21.349 --> 00:54:23.530 therapist said how can you make such a judgment 00:54:23.530 --> 00:54:27.030 call when how many years were you were you working 00:54:27.030 --> 00:54:31.000 for well 12. And each day, each one of those 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:33.260 days that you work, how many times did you experience 00:54:33.260 --> 00:54:36.260 trauma? I see where you're going with this. Okay. 00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:39.139 All right. So do you expect to become normal 00:54:39.139 --> 00:54:44.239 again after two years? Even now, the last day 00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:51.760 I worked was January 2021. And I'm still working 00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:55.599 through the process, still working on sleep problems. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:00.880 trust issues, right? It's guys, you don't just 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:04.179 retire, you know, you, you, you have to transform 00:55:04.179 --> 00:55:08.619 and it takes a long time. So, so did you actually 00:55:08.619 --> 00:55:11.820 on paper retire or are you still? Yeah. Yeah. 00:55:11.940 --> 00:55:14.619 Okay. Yeah. I had to, and that was hard too. 00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:19.139 Um, and for anyone else that has, has pulled 00:55:19.139 --> 00:55:22.760 the pin, uh, there's, there's a huge feeling 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:26.380 of giving up of. Again, I can't do this anymore. 00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:29.679 I'm failing my family. Right. And the two years 00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:31.860 that I was off, how much work extra work did 00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:35.059 I make for everybody? Right. There's that, that, 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:41.820 that you're needed so much and you want to, but 00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:44.699 to, to, it takes so much time and effort to, 00:55:44.739 --> 00:55:48.119 to finally. to stop, to stop working and stop 00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:50.500 thinking that way, to stop sitting in a restaurant, 00:55:50.539 --> 00:55:52.679 making sure the wall's not at your back and you 00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:54.619 can count the exits and how many people are in 00:55:54.619 --> 00:56:01.119 there. It's programming. And now it's hard. And 00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:03.900 we see that as kind of like part of the trauma. 00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:08.659 But I realize also that, no, those were skills 00:56:08.659 --> 00:56:12.619 and training to keep you alive. Right. Okay. 00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:17.369 I get it. but yeah getting back to the the retiring 00:56:17.369 --> 00:56:22.269 the hardest part was to put all of my um gear 00:56:22.269 --> 00:56:24.710 that didn't belong to me that wasn't mine into 00:56:24.710 --> 00:56:28.250 a cardboard box and drive it to the detachment 00:56:28.250 --> 00:56:33.130 and and give the box to them and again it's it's 00:56:33.130 --> 00:56:37.670 like like in my red surge and things i worked 00:56:37.670 --> 00:56:40.469 so hard to actually get in the honor and standing 00:56:40.469 --> 00:56:43.289 in you know here it is And I have to, you know, 00:56:43.309 --> 00:56:46.269 there's so much, you know, people have no idea. 00:56:46.369 --> 00:56:48.469 Like, yeah, you just quit a job and just go get 00:56:48.469 --> 00:56:52.170 something else. No, I'm every cell in my body 00:56:52.170 --> 00:56:53.869 is that even though I'm not wearing the uniform, 00:56:54.050 --> 00:56:57.050 that's who I am. The identity. So identity crisis 00:56:57.050 --> 00:57:02.869 is really, that's where suicide becomes in the 00:57:02.869 --> 00:57:06.550 equation. Who am I? I don't know who I can't 00:57:06.550 --> 00:57:08.349 do this anymore. That's who I am, but I can't 00:57:08.349 --> 00:57:11.889 do it anymore. So I'm no good. Yeah. Well, again, 00:57:11.949 --> 00:57:14.710 if you think about that little boy that had that 00:57:14.710 --> 00:57:17.570 trauma that was buried down, that put on a uniform, 00:57:17.690 --> 00:57:21.010 or a little girl, has that tribe, that purpose, 00:57:21.230 --> 00:57:24.309 that kind of level of excitement where you don't 00:57:24.309 --> 00:57:26.150 have to think about stuff too much, and then 00:57:26.150 --> 00:57:29.130 you throw in overtime, forced or voluntary, so 00:57:29.130 --> 00:57:31.849 now you're doing even more. And then whatever 00:57:31.849 --> 00:57:34.369 happens, whether it's a full career or an injury 00:57:34.369 --> 00:57:37.750 or a termination, or even a promotion to a desk. 00:57:38.539 --> 00:57:41.400 And now all of a sudden, but let's say you actually 00:57:41.400 --> 00:57:43.840 transition out the career completely. Now all 00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:46.739 that's gone. And now in theory, you're still 00:57:46.739 --> 00:57:49.820 that little boy or that little girl in an arguably 00:57:49.820 --> 00:57:53.300 broken body. If you've been ridden hard and put 00:57:53.300 --> 00:57:56.519 away wet, as we say. And now you're on the back 00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:59.920 end. And all the coping mechanisms that you had 00:57:59.920 --> 00:58:03.179 at work in a positive way. are gone and your 00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:05.639 tribe and your identity and your purpose and 00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:07.840 your feeling of self -worth because i used to 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.539 love that driving home even if i'd just been 00:58:10.539 --> 00:58:13.260 kind to a person and it was a non -emergent call 00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:15.780 you still made a difference in someone's life 00:58:15.780 --> 00:58:18.420 and now you're the at the back end of that so 00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:23.340 and this is what really kills me is when you 00:58:23.340 --> 00:58:26.360 see statistics about first responders are like 00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:29.059 we lost x amount you know to this or x amount 00:58:29.059 --> 00:58:31.710 to that Well, unlike the military that has the 00:58:31.710 --> 00:58:34.750 VA, when that door closes, you know, hits your 00:58:34.750 --> 00:58:37.610 ass the last time, you cease to be a statistic. 00:58:37.969 --> 00:58:40.730 But I would argue that most of the people that 00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:43.510 we lose are the ones that are transitioned out, 00:58:43.550 --> 00:58:45.510 our retirees, whether it's cancer or heart disease 00:58:45.510 --> 00:58:48.369 or suicide or overdose, the premature deaths. 00:58:48.889 --> 00:58:51.969 I mean, knowing how many retirees there are versus 00:58:51.969 --> 00:58:54.789 active duty, I would say our stats are probably 00:58:54.789 --> 00:58:58.329 10 % of how many we lose directly to the job 00:58:58.329 --> 00:59:03.289 prematurely. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. And I didn't 00:59:03.289 --> 00:59:05.070 know this or see this or understand it until 00:59:05.070 --> 00:59:11.829 I was now a number on on mental health and medical 00:59:11.829 --> 00:59:16.590 leave. Yeah. And you're right. It's it really 00:59:16.590 --> 00:59:20.409 is. It's significant. And it tells the and it 00:59:20.409 --> 00:59:25.190 shares. uh really the the totality and the responsibility 00:59:25.190 --> 00:59:28.030 that first responders have that the expectation 00:59:28.030 --> 00:59:31.150 that society has i need help therefore come um 00:59:31.150 --> 00:59:36.889 there's um yeah there's so much at stake and 00:59:36.889 --> 00:59:42.610 um yeah that needs to be out and and this is 00:59:42.610 --> 00:59:45.849 why again having a podcast and being able to 00:59:45.849 --> 00:59:47.630 share it where anyone can actually tune and listen 00:59:47.630 --> 00:59:52.099 to it um is so helpful Because it's not just 00:59:52.099 --> 00:59:56.119 reading an article or seeing our faces as we 00:59:56.119 --> 00:59:59.000 talk about it. It's genuine. It's true, right? 00:59:59.079 --> 01:00:03.760 So it's a beautiful thing. One of the kind of 01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:06.440 ideas that I had, again, after listening and 01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:08.460 really having my eyes open, I always give credit 01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:10.539 to Jake Clark from Save a Warrior for really 01:00:10.539 --> 01:00:13.940 making me think about unaddressed childhood trauma. 01:00:14.839 --> 01:00:17.119 Um, but understanding that if you're towing the 01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:19.440 line for a professional uniform, there's a good 01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:21.480 chance that you had, you know, struggles and, 01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:25.019 uh, uh, the ACE score, you know, uh, adverse 01:00:25.019 --> 01:00:27.840 childhood experience score on average, supposedly 01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:30.900 we have 10, uh, six out of 10 in first responders 01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:33.699 and military and so to incarcerated people. So 01:00:33.699 --> 01:00:36.639 there we go. Same kind of human. You either had 01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:38.659 a good or a bad mentor in your life and you took 01:00:38.659 --> 01:00:42.159 a left or a right. Um, but understanding that. 01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:45.199 what I would love to see is rather than this 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.539 box checking psych test, polygraph, all this 01:00:48.539 --> 01:00:50.599 bullshit that we do. And ironically, I just interviewed 01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:52.440 a polygraph specialist a couple of days ago. 01:00:52.940 --> 01:00:56.360 I would love to see a conversation where, all 01:00:56.360 --> 01:00:59.000 right, the fact that you're standing here when 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:02.500 99 % of the community wasn't interested, you 01:01:02.500 --> 01:01:04.980 probably carried some shit through this front 01:01:04.980 --> 01:01:09.099 door. And that is. absolutely fine so as importantly 01:01:09.099 --> 01:01:11.400 as we're going to pt your body we're going to 01:01:11.400 --> 01:01:13.980 pt your mind and we're going to start counseling 01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:17.400 in this first year and then like you said there's 01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:19.179 going to be an ongoing thing it's just going 01:01:19.179 --> 01:01:21.059 to be a treadmill where you're constantly tuning 01:01:21.059 --> 01:01:24.840 up and i want to see a shift from this whole 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:29.239 kind of like really sad messaging of mental health 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:33.059 to performance because it gives the same exact 01:01:33.059 --> 01:01:36.360 result but if we're like jonathan You would have 01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:38.199 brought some stuff in. If it's been addressed, 01:01:38.440 --> 01:01:40.000 awesome. You're going to have some fun conversations 01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:41.380 with the counselor and you're just simply going 01:01:41.380 --> 01:01:43.900 to be making a relationship with someone that 01:01:43.900 --> 01:01:46.380 you keep tuning up in. If there are some things 01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:48.820 that have been left unaddressed, they're going 01:01:48.820 --> 01:01:50.599 to rise to the surface. You're going to process 01:01:50.599 --> 01:01:52.639 them and you're going to become more resilient, 01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:55.960 more empathetic. But the primary purpose outside 01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:58.239 of that is we're going to keep your mind tuned 01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:00.440 up. So God forbid you have to pull your weapon 01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:03.280 on a traffic stop. You have that ability to get 01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:05.159 in that flow state and make the right decision 01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:07.900 to pull your weapon or to not pull your weapon. 01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:11.280 So that's what I want to see is have this conversation 01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:14.780 at the front door and look less at, oh, you know, 01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:18.340 the sad PTSD, broken minds, you know, kind of 01:02:18.340 --> 01:02:21.340 storytelling that we've done and more like this 01:02:21.340 --> 01:02:23.400 is about forging performance. Now that journey 01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:26.079 might include taking you from a kind of depression, 01:02:26.199 --> 01:02:28.440 anxiety state before you get to zero, before 01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:32.170 you get to then flow state. But I think if we're 01:02:32.170 --> 01:02:34.130 always looking at the mind as a weapon, the same 01:02:34.130 --> 01:02:36.989 way as our body is, now you're framing it differently. 01:02:37.050 --> 01:02:39.969 And now it becomes a continuous training thing 01:02:39.969 --> 01:02:42.230 rather than, well, hey, let me know if you're 01:02:42.230 --> 01:02:44.409 about to shoot yourself and then we'll see if 01:02:44.409 --> 01:02:47.429 we can get you a phone number. Yeah. Yeah, it's 01:02:47.429 --> 01:02:50.570 investing in longevity and stamina that we need 01:02:50.570 --> 01:02:55.769 to do it. And, you know, the public is not wrong 01:02:55.769 --> 01:03:00.250 in expecting perfection. Because it has to be 01:03:00.250 --> 01:03:03.230 done on the street in seconds, but also has to 01:03:03.230 --> 01:03:05.670 be done in the courtroom. No one wants to be 01:03:05.670 --> 01:03:12.730 wrongfully charged or, you know, dealing with 01:03:12.730 --> 01:03:16.929 a situation where our actions are incorrect. 01:03:18.050 --> 01:03:20.429 And there's, again, there's so much weight on 01:03:20.429 --> 01:03:24.289 that. And that's part of the humanity of first 01:03:24.289 --> 01:03:28.260 responders that people... uh don't know and sometimes 01:03:28.260 --> 01:03:30.519 don't want to know i don't know i don't care 01:03:30.519 --> 01:03:33.079 if you are struggling or i don't care if you're 01:03:33.079 --> 01:03:34.760 divorced or i don't care if you just came from 01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:38.440 a dead body and still stink of death i need your 01:03:38.440 --> 01:03:41.239 help you need to do this for me right and and 01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:47.260 what do we do yes sir yes sir yeah um it's it's 01:03:47.260 --> 01:03:51.480 a duty it's an honor it's a sacrifice um and 01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:55.389 this is just the the negative side of of that 01:03:55.389 --> 01:03:59.570 choice that we have, that work that we wish to 01:03:59.570 --> 01:04:04.150 do. And, you know, it's no wonder we sacrifice 01:04:04.150 --> 01:04:06.949 ourselves because we do it every day to help 01:04:06.949 --> 01:04:11.150 others. So when do we have that mindset to take 01:04:11.150 --> 01:04:13.889 time for yourself? Okay. Is everyone good? Is 01:04:13.889 --> 01:04:16.809 everyone good? Okay. I'm going to go have a cry. 01:04:17.329 --> 01:04:20.949 You know, it doesn't work. And I can understand 01:04:20.949 --> 01:04:25.599 how hard it is to implement. a program. But we 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.199 are in dire need of it. We really are. And that's 01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:30.300 why it's easy for me to say when I look back, 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:35.179 wow, if I had, even if I complain about it, oh, 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:38.260 dude, so are you on next block? Are you working? 01:04:38.360 --> 01:04:41.019 No, dude, I got the block off because I have 01:04:41.019 --> 01:04:43.039 to go to mental health. Oh, that sucks. Yeah, 01:04:43.119 --> 01:04:48.480 I know. Because you don't think it. And you can't, 01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:52.260 really, you can't think it either. Because I 01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:54.349 have to be strong. uh, I have to be strong for 01:04:54.349 --> 01:04:56.750 him. I got to be strong for, so it doesn't come 01:04:56.750 --> 01:04:59.710 natural. That's the norm. And, and so that was 01:04:59.710 --> 01:05:01.789 my answer too, for, for people who are saying, 01:05:01.949 --> 01:05:03.909 well, why didn't get help earlier? Cause I didn't 01:05:03.909 --> 01:05:05.809 need it. Or at least I told, I was told, and 01:05:05.809 --> 01:05:09.030 I believed I didn't because everyone else is 01:05:09.030 --> 01:05:12.130 working there. They're not going and seeing people. 01:05:12.329 --> 01:05:15.230 Right. So, and it's, it's also a sign of weakness, 01:05:15.429 --> 01:05:17.030 you know, and that's the other thing too, is 01:05:17.030 --> 01:05:19.829 weakness. Like I, you know, do you got my back? 01:05:19.969 --> 01:05:21.590 Yeah. Yeah. But I heard you just, you just got 01:05:21.590 --> 01:05:25.030 back from therapy are you good yeah i'm good 01:05:25.030 --> 01:05:30.590 like better okay but you sure you know yeah it's 01:05:30.590 --> 01:05:38.170 it's such a a really complicated uh subject um 01:05:38.170 --> 01:05:41.489 the the livelihood and well -being of of first 01:05:41.489 --> 01:05:46.409 responders um it really is it's uh i have a few 01:05:46.409 --> 01:05:48.909 friends too that they'll be driving and they'll 01:05:48.909 --> 01:05:51.260 call and say hey i got a cop question Yeah, bring 01:05:51.260 --> 01:05:53.219 it on. So there'll be some traffic. It'll be 01:05:53.219 --> 01:05:54.679 a question. I just saw someone do this. And what 01:05:54.679 --> 01:05:57.679 do you, so I still enjoy answering those questions, 01:05:57.760 --> 01:06:01.960 but I, you know, not only should first responders 01:06:01.960 --> 01:06:04.699 have like mandatory every year, good week off, 01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:10.360 but society public should have mandatory ride 01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:15.460 alongs so they can see for themselves. Everyone's 01:06:15.460 --> 01:06:17.300 a good armchair cynic when it was like, oh, he 01:06:17.300 --> 01:06:19.380 drew his gun too fast. And oh, yeah, he stepped 01:06:19.380 --> 01:06:23.019 on him too hard. That was bad. No, go. Everyone 01:06:23.019 --> 01:06:25.820 should have this mind opening kind of, wow, I 01:06:25.820 --> 01:06:30.420 had no idea. Okay. I respect law officers. I 01:06:30.420 --> 01:06:32.380 respect fire. I respect ambulance because the 01:06:32.380 --> 01:06:35.440 shit that you guys deal with every day, I get 01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:37.880 to see it. And thank you so much. So really, 01:06:38.019 --> 01:06:41.639 it's awareness, not only for ourselves, but also 01:06:41.639 --> 01:06:45.820 the public. Yeah. You know, we're seeing it in 01:06:45.820 --> 01:06:48.179 the gen X, gen Z, and it just keeps getting worse 01:06:48.179 --> 01:06:52.920 with the, um, the, the expectations. No one has 01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:55.199 to worry. No one has to, um, work hard because 01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:57.599 it's, it's all given to them. Right. It wasn't 01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:01.119 for us. And, uh, yeah, I love how we're, uh, 01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:03.059 we're part of the cooler generation, right. We 01:07:03.059 --> 01:07:07.820 were pre screens and moving. And so we know the 01:07:07.820 --> 01:07:10.380 dangers and yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's really 01:07:10.380 --> 01:07:13.949 cool time for. for us to have that, uh, that 01:07:13.949 --> 01:07:15.929 overlap where like, yeah, where it's right in 01:07:15.929 --> 01:07:18.449 the middle of that. Yeah. But we should be the 01:07:18.449 --> 01:07:20.750 ambassadors. I think a hundred percent, like 01:07:20.750 --> 01:07:24.369 we have such a unique position where we are straddling 01:07:24.369 --> 01:07:26.489 that line of, you know, pre and post computers 01:07:26.489 --> 01:07:29.929 basically. Um, you know, and I'm seeing this 01:07:29.929 --> 01:07:31.289 now is just talking to somebody the other day. 01:07:31.289 --> 01:07:35.460 There is a. a romanticization of our childhood, 01:07:35.619 --> 01:07:38.199 the, you know, seventies, eighties from these, 01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:41.159 these Gen Z's now. And my son has a record player, 01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:45.420 for example, you know, so, and so if we're going 01:07:45.420 --> 01:07:47.679 to revisit that, we can revisit all the good 01:07:47.679 --> 01:07:49.820 stuff, you know, and the kindness and compassion 01:07:49.820 --> 01:07:52.619 and community and a little shared suffering once 01:07:52.619 --> 01:07:54.519 in a while, you know, falling off bikes and being 01:07:54.519 --> 01:07:56.559 out there and, you know, when it pisses down 01:07:56.559 --> 01:07:58.239 with rain and it's cold and you just suck it 01:07:58.239 --> 01:08:01.900 up. Walk home, you know, but then the lessons 01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:04.559 learned. But don't suck it up, buttercup, when 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:06.420 it comes to your mental health. And to your point 01:08:06.420 --> 01:08:08.059 where you're saying about, oh, yeah, I took the 01:08:08.059 --> 01:08:10.760 blocks off of mental health. Imagine if we reframed 01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.079 it. Are you working next week? No, no, I've got 01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:16.000 brain dojo. Oh, man, I love brain dojo. You're 01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:17.739 going to come back even sharper, huh? Yeah, I 01:08:17.739 --> 01:08:20.119 am. You know what I mean? Same exact conversation, 01:08:20.420 --> 01:08:25.319 different end result. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. 01:08:25.460 --> 01:08:29.810 And the way it's given. And that kind of came 01:08:29.810 --> 01:08:34.729 true too when I did take my medical leave to 01:08:34.729 --> 01:08:39.210 realize the benefits that we had as RCMP and 01:08:39.210 --> 01:08:42.670 other agencies have. I had no idea. Really? I 01:08:42.670 --> 01:08:45.550 have that benefit? Why? I've been working all 01:08:45.550 --> 01:08:47.850 these years. I never once went and saw a chiropractor. 01:08:47.890 --> 01:08:49.909 All these years, I never went and got a massage 01:08:49.909 --> 01:08:54.010 and did massage therapy. It's crazy. And it's 01:08:54.010 --> 01:08:56.970 not really encouraged. When you're at the office, 01:08:57.050 --> 01:09:01.890 at least it wasn't for me. So getting into mental 01:09:01.890 --> 01:09:04.869 health and really making myself a priority to 01:09:04.869 --> 01:09:09.649 heal, I'm so grateful to have the benefits that 01:09:09.649 --> 01:09:12.489 I did and to have the safety net that was there 01:09:12.489 --> 01:09:16.630 for me to fall. Yeah. So it's really good. Brilliant. 01:09:16.850 --> 01:09:21.449 Well, early on. when you transition from music 01:09:21.449 --> 01:09:25.310 into policing and there was that pressure to 01:09:25.310 --> 01:09:28.069 provide and have stability and have benefits, 01:09:28.170 --> 01:09:32.409 et cetera, et cetera, it seems very sensible 01:09:32.409 --> 01:09:34.590 to pretty much everyone that's listening, I'm 01:09:34.590 --> 01:09:38.590 sure. But then when you move forward through 01:09:38.590 --> 01:09:41.529 a career in the first responder professions, 01:09:42.029 --> 01:09:47.300 there's also, okay, but is this everything? Like, 01:09:47.659 --> 01:09:49.359 you know, I'm going to have a pension if I just 01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:51.460 do this many years and, you know, health care, 01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:54.460 et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, a the time 01:09:54.460 --> 01:09:56.439 with your family, which I think is so important, 01:09:56.539 --> 01:09:59.460 but be your own burning desire to be able to 01:09:59.460 --> 01:10:02.140 fulfill other things as well. So on the back 01:10:02.140 --> 01:10:05.939 end now, talk to me about, you know, being able 01:10:05.939 --> 01:10:08.800 to be home all the time, obviously touring aside. 01:10:09.140 --> 01:10:12.000 And then also that burning desire, that other 01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:15.399 part of your identity that was music. um, you 01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:18.479 know, tapping back into that as far as the catharsis 01:10:18.479 --> 01:10:24.380 and your healing journey. Yeah. Uh, it, uh, it 01:10:24.380 --> 01:10:28.399 comes right back to identity, uh, to, I couldn't 01:10:28.399 --> 01:10:31.140 get back into this and feel it unless I let go. 01:10:31.399 --> 01:10:35.039 Um, so there's, uh, yeah, there's a song that 01:10:35.039 --> 01:10:36.680 I'm working on. That's kind of around that where 01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:42.329 it's, it's letting go. Um, and I am. I'm grateful 01:10:42.329 --> 01:10:44.750 again. I'm grateful that I had the opportunity 01:10:44.750 --> 01:10:49.710 to really see the world. It shaped my character. 01:10:50.689 --> 01:10:54.970 I have a lot more to sing about. Talk about like, 01:10:55.109 --> 01:10:57.149 you know, give me a good idea to write a song. 01:10:57.270 --> 01:11:07.109 Well, I got a few. So, yeah, it's been a really 01:11:07.109 --> 01:11:11.600 beautiful process of... of letting go and embracing 01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:16.220 the next chapter. And to believe that there is 01:11:16.220 --> 01:11:18.560 a next chapter. That was the other thing too, 01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:21.779 is that when everything stopped and I couldn't, 01:11:21.779 --> 01:11:32.520 that definitely filled and made the feelings 01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:37.699 of depression even heavier. Yeah, so I'm really, 01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:40.359 I'm grateful. Again, I have a benefit of being 01:11:40.359 --> 01:11:43.720 able to take a medical retirement. There's some 01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:48.260 perks to that. And it was, again, it was hard. 01:11:48.359 --> 01:11:51.659 I would rather have stayed and worked to the 01:11:51.659 --> 01:11:55.800 20, 21 years in a day to maximize my pension. 01:11:58.500 --> 01:12:01.920 But I'm just getting by. And that's where my 01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:08.260 faith is being, validated. Okay. It's going to 01:12:08.260 --> 01:12:11.880 be okay. It's going to be okay. Um, you're, you 01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:15.079 know, things are going to happen. Um, and so 01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:21.539 to, to embrace this next chapter, uh, is, is 01:12:21.539 --> 01:12:23.520 great. And I still don't know how far it's going 01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:27.039 to go. I still don't know, um, what will happen, 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:30.380 but to embrace the unknown is, is another new 01:12:30.380 --> 01:12:33.960 thing I got to do policing and, and, uh, it was 01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:36.000 very structured. You had to know the outcome. 01:12:36.100 --> 01:12:39.039 You had to know the, get to the bottom of things, 01:12:39.100 --> 01:12:41.939 the investigation. Whereas I have to live day 01:12:41.939 --> 01:12:44.180 to day. Like, I don't know, you know, I hope 01:12:44.180 --> 01:12:46.640 my song gets on the radio. I hope it makes some 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:50.539 money so that I don't have to be on. Yeah. Or 01:12:50.539 --> 01:12:52.619 just get through on, on the, the bit of pension 01:12:52.619 --> 01:12:58.539 that I have. So, but I'm, I'm genuinely happy. 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:05.060 In a lot of ways, when I look back at, having 01:13:05.060 --> 01:13:10.420 lost everything. It was an exodus where everything 01:13:10.420 --> 01:13:13.640 had to be stripped away. Otherwise, stubborn 01:13:13.640 --> 01:13:16.100 me would be hanging on to it. No, let's work 01:13:16.100 --> 01:13:18.119 this marriage out. I don't believe in divorce. 01:13:18.899 --> 01:13:21.220 No, I'm going to keep going to work because I 01:13:21.220 --> 01:13:23.920 need that pension, you know, and that's what 01:13:23.920 --> 01:13:25.859 everyone says. I'm going to work 20 years and 01:13:25.859 --> 01:13:32.539 do this. But from, yeah, you know, someone's 01:13:32.539 --> 01:13:35.630 looking over me because really, All of that had 01:13:35.630 --> 01:13:40.430 to go for me to let it go and to be alone and 01:13:40.430 --> 01:13:45.090 to embrace the next chapter. And it's so refreshing. 01:13:45.289 --> 01:13:47.390 And this is, again, it's like, yeah, if you're 01:13:47.390 --> 01:13:50.109 in the, for anyone, if you're in the middle of 01:13:50.109 --> 01:13:51.529 your struggles, if you're in the middle of the 01:13:51.529 --> 01:13:54.529 darkness, you have no idea what's going to happen. 01:13:54.850 --> 01:14:02.609 Just wait, wait, pray. Because you can't experience. 01:14:03.819 --> 01:14:07.619 that next level of either responsibility or joy 01:14:07.619 --> 01:14:10.859 or happiness until you've learned what you could 01:14:10.859 --> 01:14:13.600 through this, this portion of your life. And 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:17.100 I, uh, you know, people ask, well, you know, 01:14:17.100 --> 01:14:20.659 you went right back to music and, um, you lost 01:14:20.659 --> 01:14:23.600 a lot of years. Uh, how are you going to do this? 01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:29.739 And I, I feel like it wasn't meant to be until 01:14:29.739 --> 01:14:33.270 now, if I got a record deal. when I was 20 years 01:14:33.270 --> 01:14:36.970 old. I may have been a wreck. I may have been 01:14:36.970 --> 01:14:39.729 an addict. I may have gotten into trouble. I 01:14:39.729 --> 01:14:43.050 may have had a whole different life. But now 01:14:43.050 --> 01:14:48.229 I am here. I made it through a lot of stuff, 01:14:48.409 --> 01:14:52.010 and I am thankful for it. I can appreciate life. 01:14:52.229 --> 01:14:58.449 I can give good stories and help people through 01:14:58.449 --> 01:15:00.909 certain things. So I think that's where this 01:15:00.909 --> 01:15:05.680 is going. where I'm going to be sharing music, 01:15:05.779 --> 01:15:10.300 what is me, but also sharing the story of how 01:15:10.300 --> 01:15:13.920 to get through. And the tour name that I have 01:15:13.920 --> 01:15:19.439 for later this year is called Boots, Bars, and 01:15:19.439 --> 01:15:22.800 Battle Scars. So it's the, you know, I'm going 01:15:22.800 --> 01:15:25.479 to be playing in bars. I definitely wore the 01:15:25.479 --> 01:15:28.119 soles of my boots down thin and then the battle 01:15:28.119 --> 01:15:30.899 scars. right? Like let's all, let's all share. 01:15:31.100 --> 01:15:36.979 And so, um, yeah. And I'm still getting, trying 01:15:36.979 --> 01:15:38.800 to get comfortable with that, to be vulnerable 01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:41.340 up on stage and not just having a conversation 01:15:41.340 --> 01:15:43.819 with one or two people. I'm in front of like 01:15:43.819 --> 01:15:47.000 hundreds, you know, and, and, uh, giving my, 01:15:47.119 --> 01:15:50.039 you know, sharing it, writing a song. There's 01:15:50.039 --> 01:15:52.279 a song I have that, uh, it's called stay with 01:15:52.279 --> 01:15:55.180 me. And, uh, I wrote this two years ago in December 01:15:55.180 --> 01:15:59.130 because, um, feeling that wave of, of depression. 01:15:59.489 --> 01:16:01.090 And it still comes once in a while. It was just 01:16:01.090 --> 01:16:03.130 all of a sudden, I feel like shit today. Like 01:16:03.130 --> 01:16:06.670 I wear that joy and know it. Yeah. So I wrote 01:16:06.670 --> 01:16:10.109 this song because I recognize that depression 01:16:10.109 --> 01:16:17.590 was not me. It was, it had infiltrated me. It 01:16:17.590 --> 01:16:23.029 was telling me the lies of no one cares. Life 01:16:23.029 --> 01:16:27.050 sucks. But then there was a moment where I just 01:16:27.050 --> 01:16:31.390 remember feeling like a blip of like, that's 01:16:31.390 --> 01:16:36.090 not me. I went, ha, you sneaky little shit. So 01:16:36.090 --> 01:16:39.170 depression. So I decided to write a love song 01:16:39.170 --> 01:16:42.909 about the toxic love that depression has for 01:16:42.909 --> 01:16:45.189 us. Because it tells it, it tries to give you 01:16:45.189 --> 01:16:47.090 advice. It tries to tell you and protect you. 01:16:47.329 --> 01:16:49.069 You know, don't go out. Don't, you know, you 01:16:49.069 --> 01:16:51.869 don't need that. And so I wrote, yeah, stay with 01:16:51.869 --> 01:16:54.560 me. It's a love song. between myself and the 01:16:54.560 --> 01:16:56.960 depression that I was fighting. So again, it's 01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:02.920 a great way to really put an experience and a 01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:06.460 feeling into a song that can be sung and understood. 01:17:07.899 --> 01:17:10.880 You alluded to earlier that you had a spiritual 01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:13.680 experience that kind of changed your trajectory 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:15.359 a little bit. Do you want to share what that 01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:21.079 was? Yeah, absolutely. It was the point where... 01:17:22.289 --> 01:17:26.069 I had hit rock bottom and, uh, and where hope 01:17:26.069 --> 01:17:29.149 was brought. And this is amazing. It was, um, 01:17:29.189 --> 01:17:33.109 I was still in the process of, of trying to work, 01:17:33.149 --> 01:17:37.130 trying to fix the marriage and, and in that struggle. 01:17:37.270 --> 01:17:41.729 Um, and I was, I was sobbing because of a betrayal 01:17:41.729 --> 01:17:44.170 that had happened and it was just so devastating. 01:17:44.449 --> 01:17:51.380 Um, and so I, uh, um, to pause there for a moment 01:17:51.380 --> 01:17:55.220 um i'm a christian i didn't become one until 01:17:55.220 --> 01:17:59.739 i was uh in my mid -30s um after experiencing 01:17:59.739 --> 01:18:04.979 my mom being been given a miracle of life she 01:18:04.979 --> 01:18:07.420 had cancer and she was supposed to die in three 01:18:07.420 --> 01:18:10.659 or four months but um yeah she's cancer -free 01:18:10.659 --> 01:18:13.260 because of her own faith so mom was crazy so 01:18:13.260 --> 01:18:18.500 uh wow so i i had I had been, you know, reading 01:18:18.500 --> 01:18:24.199 and enjoying and having that faith. But it wasn't 01:18:24.199 --> 01:18:30.220 until at my ultimate worst where I was sobbing 01:18:30.220 --> 01:18:32.359 and I had no idea what I was going to do. And 01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:37.539 I was laying there in bed and I heard, I heard 01:18:37.539 --> 01:18:41.880 put it on the cross from like, it was a different 01:18:41.880 --> 01:18:44.859 thought because I was just. I had one of the 01:18:44.859 --> 01:18:46.939 things I was dealing with was the obsessive thoughts. 01:18:47.340 --> 01:18:50.579 This is how PTSD and trauma just keeps spinning 01:18:50.579 --> 01:18:52.239 and looping and looping. Fix me, fix me, fix 01:18:52.239 --> 01:18:54.279 me. So I was dealing with that and all of a sudden 01:18:54.279 --> 01:18:57.680 put it on the cross. I stopped for a second. 01:18:58.500 --> 01:19:01.060 That's a weird thought. And then it was a firm, 01:19:01.100 --> 01:19:06.600 like I said, put it on the cross. And I had to 01:19:06.600 --> 01:19:09.840 sit with it. Like, was that me or was it? And 01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:12.409 then I heard it again, put it on the cross. And 01:19:12.409 --> 01:19:16.350 part of me, and I just kind of had this thought, 01:19:16.590 --> 01:19:21.909 okay, I need to vividly picture a cross in my 01:19:21.909 --> 01:19:29.270 room. And this burning, the sensation of betrayal 01:19:29.270 --> 01:19:33.329 and hurt and pain, I felt it just churning. But 01:19:33.329 --> 01:19:37.319 then I looked at this. imaginary cross that i 01:19:37.319 --> 01:19:40.220 put there and all of a sudden the the pain just 01:19:40.220 --> 01:19:43.359 started coming out like it was just it came out 01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:48.399 and it was being put on yeah just i could feel 01:19:48.399 --> 01:19:51.960 the sensation of it coming out and um and in 01:19:51.960 --> 01:19:55.380 that moment my sobs turned into like convulsing 01:19:55.380 --> 01:19:58.960 as like as if i was throwing up it was just like 01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:02.760 coming out is crazy and so I'm laying there and 01:20:02.760 --> 01:20:05.319 I'm thinking, what the hell is going on? And 01:20:05.319 --> 01:20:10.899 finally, the last of it came out. And I laid 01:20:10.899 --> 01:20:14.199 there on my back. And then all of a sudden, I 01:20:14.199 --> 01:20:19.680 felt this intense presence in the room. It was 01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:23.920 scary. I pulled up the covers. And in my mind, 01:20:23.939 --> 01:20:27.460 I went, who are you? And the immediate answer 01:20:27.460 --> 01:20:31.510 I got was truth. And it was like truth said as 01:20:31.510 --> 01:20:34.310 if that's who you are. It was like palpable, 01:20:34.430 --> 01:20:35.970 like someone just introduced themselves, truth. 01:20:36.130 --> 01:20:38.869 Oh, it's your name. Amazing. But it was the essence, 01:20:39.050 --> 01:20:41.890 like the air, even in every corner, it was like 01:20:41.890 --> 01:20:47.550 there was this presence. And I was like, what 01:20:47.550 --> 01:20:54.750 is going on? And then I felt my heart burn. And 01:20:54.750 --> 01:20:58.340 then. I felt flames coming out of my heart as 01:20:58.340 --> 01:21:01.300 I'm laying there. And I looked down because it 01:21:01.300 --> 01:21:08.180 was such a feeling. And I started putting my 01:21:08.180 --> 01:21:09.760 fingers as if you would go through a candle. 01:21:09.939 --> 01:21:13.899 I was doing this. I couldn't feel it on my fingertips, 01:21:14.039 --> 01:21:18.739 but it was coming out. And then I heard this. 01:21:20.600 --> 01:21:24.060 Your better days are coming. And then it all 01:21:24.060 --> 01:21:27.399 just kind of like. Faded. And I was there alone 01:21:27.399 --> 01:21:30.699 sitting and thinking what had just happened. 01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:36.640 And I, I was thinking truth, truth. I am the 01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:39.760 way, the truth and the life. I went, Oh my goodness. 01:21:40.060 --> 01:21:43.399 Oh my goodness. And, and I, I felt healed. I 01:21:43.399 --> 01:21:45.899 felt like something had changed in my body. And 01:21:45.899 --> 01:21:50.199 it was like a pivot point where hope was now 01:21:50.199 --> 01:21:56.109 there. I belonged. And it was amazing. So it's 01:21:56.109 --> 01:21:59.850 not to say that I never felt depression or felt 01:21:59.850 --> 01:22:03.130 like shit again, but it was, it was a moment 01:22:03.130 --> 01:22:07.010 in my life where I can trust, I can believe, 01:22:07.029 --> 01:22:09.130 I can believe in a promise that was made to me 01:22:09.130 --> 01:22:10.569 that my better years are coming. And this was 01:22:10.569 --> 01:22:15.369 long before I was in treatment or, or had taken 01:22:15.369 --> 01:22:18.970 time off. And it's funny because I, things got 01:22:18.970 --> 01:22:23.989 worse. There is another betrayal and, and I was 01:22:23.989 --> 01:22:28.670 just devastated. And I kept thinking, I thought 01:22:28.670 --> 01:22:31.729 my better days were coming. But I realize now 01:22:31.729 --> 01:22:34.489 looking back that that was the hope and the peace 01:22:34.489 --> 01:22:41.529 that I was given to get through the next trial, 01:22:41.710 --> 01:22:45.350 the next grief and pain that I had to go through. 01:22:46.930 --> 01:22:48.890 I don't know what would have happened if I didn't. 01:22:49.119 --> 01:22:51.039 Yeah, it's amazing. It was like right there. 01:22:51.119 --> 01:22:54.180 Just so amazing. So praise God for that. Yeah, 01:22:54.180 --> 01:22:59.020 so I have a new life because I trusted. Yeah, 01:22:59.039 --> 01:23:01.979 it was amazing. This isn't a spiritual thing, 01:23:02.079 --> 01:23:06.180 but I ironically, through my son's mother, came 01:23:06.180 --> 01:23:09.880 across a guy called Wayne Dyer about 15 years 01:23:09.880 --> 01:23:13.479 ago now. And Wayne was kind of like a wisdom 01:23:13.479 --> 01:23:17.000 keeper, if you like. found kind of what I would 01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:19.479 argue the common denominator of all religions 01:23:19.479 --> 01:23:23.319 of ancient wisdom from all over the world, literally 01:23:23.319 --> 01:23:25.739 all over the world. And he had such a great way 01:23:25.739 --> 01:23:27.939 of bringing it together and talking about kindness 01:23:27.939 --> 01:23:30.239 and compassion and empathy and service and grief 01:23:30.239 --> 01:23:33.699 and et cetera, et cetera. And sadly, not ironically, 01:23:33.800 --> 01:23:37.520 but sadly, he died of leukemia probably 10 -ish 01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:39.699 years ago. So just before I started this podcast, 01:23:39.840 --> 01:23:43.520 I would love to have got him on. his stuff just 01:23:43.520 --> 01:23:46.039 resonated so deeply of which some was from you 01:23:46.039 --> 01:23:48.760 know the bible and the torah and ida ching and 01:23:48.760 --> 01:23:52.560 all this other you know great wisdom um but it 01:23:52.560 --> 01:23:55.399 was the same kind of thing i feel like it literally 01:23:55.399 --> 01:23:57.699 was given to me so then i could deal with the 01:23:57.699 --> 01:23:59.779 shit that followed because nothing got better 01:23:59.779 --> 01:24:01.880 then it got worse and worse and worse and you 01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:04.279 know again betrayal of my marriage and being 01:24:04.279 --> 01:24:06.479 a single parent and betrayal of my fire department 01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:10.220 and all kinds of stuff compounding trauma But 01:24:10.220 --> 01:24:12.920 it had already changed the way I thought. So 01:24:12.920 --> 01:24:15.539 I can understand completely what you're talking 01:24:15.539 --> 01:24:19.539 about, because I felt like I had armor and, you 01:24:19.539 --> 01:24:22.119 know, a few weapons around my waist now that 01:24:22.119 --> 01:24:24.380 I didn't have before. And I would have been kind 01:24:24.380 --> 01:24:28.500 of blindsided had I not been prepared. Having 01:24:28.500 --> 01:24:30.640 that epiphany, even though the next day you didn't 01:24:30.640 --> 01:24:33.739 wake up and it was a Disney life, there's a lot 01:24:33.739 --> 01:24:35.819 of value to that. Having the hope and the strength, 01:24:35.979 --> 01:24:38.180 which I would argue I still have to this day. 01:24:38.220 --> 01:24:40.680 There's a lot of people that oppose all the things 01:24:40.680 --> 01:24:43.979 that we do to try and make our professions better, 01:24:44.100 --> 01:24:46.000 which blows my mind that you would oppose things 01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:48.220 that are saving lives. But that's the reality, 01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:52.659 even locally here. So, yeah, but I mean, I can 01:24:52.659 --> 01:24:55.539 relate to that completely. And I think it's an 01:24:55.539 --> 01:24:57.840 important lesson for people to hear. If you have 01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:01.140 some sort of life event like that and the next 01:25:01.140 --> 01:25:03.300 day or week things aren't better, maybe it's 01:25:03.300 --> 01:25:06.659 just preparing you for the final act of the fight. 01:25:07.520 --> 01:25:12.279 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it takes, and in 01:25:12.279 --> 01:25:15.600 my case, it took me to go all the way down and 01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:18.319 to lose even my own fight to fight for myself. 01:25:18.380 --> 01:25:22.199 I had to hit. rock bottom where i was i was done 01:25:22.199 --> 01:25:26.239 i was ko'd um and it was at that point that i 01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:30.960 i i realized i reached out help me i need help 01:25:30.960 --> 01:25:37.039 um and so and there's there were times too when 01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:42.340 i'm i'm like yeah like no why like just i would 01:25:42.340 --> 01:25:47.439 have these conversations there's been times where 01:25:47.439 --> 01:25:50.880 so i live in a home And there's a tenant that 01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:53.880 lives in the basement suite that's next to me 01:25:53.880 --> 01:25:57.140 here. And I would feel this rage. Here comes 01:25:57.140 --> 01:25:58.680 another, you know, I'm not crying this time, 01:25:58.760 --> 01:26:03.359 but it's this, the rage of being unfairly treated, 01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:07.340 the moral injuries that would come up. And I'm 01:26:07.340 --> 01:26:10.420 trying to process them, but I'm like, I need 01:26:10.420 --> 01:26:17.840 to like fucking yell. I went over to the window 01:26:17.840 --> 01:26:21.039 to see if his vehicle was there, and it wasn't. 01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:24.899 And I went, yeah! It came out, and here I am 01:26:24.899 --> 01:26:28.159 just trying to do it in private. But yeah, but 01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:32.920 even that has to come out, right? And I remember 01:26:32.920 --> 01:26:35.159 saying that, like, no, I'm going to keep it in. 01:26:35.319 --> 01:26:38.579 And that same voice that said, put it on the 01:26:38.579 --> 01:26:45.760 cross, was, I can handle it. give it to me and 01:26:45.760 --> 01:26:48.500 and i was like well no like if you know the story 01:26:48.500 --> 01:26:51.720 of jesus that he doesn't deserve any more suffering 01:26:51.720 --> 01:26:55.619 right so there's no give it to me and so it came 01:26:55.619 --> 01:26:58.579 out you know it was just uncontrolled it was 01:26:58.579 --> 01:27:02.060 it was just to let it out but again it was part 01:27:02.060 --> 01:27:04.859 of the healing to to trust yourself your body 01:27:04.859 --> 01:27:08.340 is tired of holding that weight and that uh the 01:27:08.340 --> 01:27:12.229 anger And, uh, and yeah, and that's the other 01:27:12.229 --> 01:27:16.590 thing too, with PTSD is I had to, I had to learn 01:27:16.590 --> 01:27:19.029 my triggers. Well, one of the worst ones was, 01:27:19.069 --> 01:27:21.770 uh, was driving. I'm just so used to like, I 01:27:21.770 --> 01:27:23.409 need, I'm in a hurry. I need to get, I need to 01:27:23.409 --> 01:27:26.369 get somewhere. And then, um, we get some old 01:27:26.369 --> 01:27:28.770 person or some, something in the way. And, and 01:27:28.770 --> 01:27:31.770 I'm like, fuck, you know, like, yeah. And then 01:27:31.770 --> 01:27:34.890 I'm seeing myself get angry. I'm like, Oh yeah. 01:27:35.289 --> 01:27:37.630 I'm glad I'm not working anymore. Cause I, uh, 01:27:38.189 --> 01:27:41.449 I would say some mean stuff, right. And getting 01:27:41.449 --> 01:27:43.810 shit. And then rather than be on medical leave, 01:27:43.850 --> 01:27:46.449 I'd be on disciplinary leave. So yeah, no, it 01:27:46.449 --> 01:27:51.069 all, it all worked out well for me, which is 01:27:51.069 --> 01:27:54.189 great. So, but yeah, the, the point of, of having 01:27:54.189 --> 01:27:56.710 that moment, it's, it's, it comes really when 01:27:56.710 --> 01:28:01.720 you are at rock bottom and you need help. to 01:28:01.720 --> 01:28:03.680 find that encouragement to get through. And it's 01:28:03.680 --> 01:28:05.279 worth it. That's the other thing too, is that 01:28:05.279 --> 01:28:07.859 I even heard myself saying, this is not worth 01:28:07.859 --> 01:28:11.819 it. I have no care in the world. It's not worth 01:28:11.819 --> 01:28:14.420 it. Now it is. If you knew, if you were given 01:28:14.420 --> 01:28:17.380 a quick flash of what your next chapter is going 01:28:17.380 --> 01:28:20.020 to be, you'd hold on. And the struggle that we 01:28:20.020 --> 01:28:22.460 have is actually not having that and trusting 01:28:22.460 --> 01:28:25.239 that something will happen. But yeah, I want 01:28:25.239 --> 01:28:28.520 to be a testimony to that. Like, what would you 01:28:28.520 --> 01:28:30.340 do after policing? I mean, you can't even go 01:28:30.340 --> 01:28:35.819 in public and live a normal life. I know. But 01:28:35.819 --> 01:28:38.380 music is changing that. My faith is changing 01:28:38.380 --> 01:28:42.420 that. And there's a bigger life coming. Absolutely. 01:28:42.560 --> 01:28:44.939 Well, speaking of that, one more area before 01:28:44.939 --> 01:28:47.439 we kind of go to some closing questions. You 01:28:47.439 --> 01:28:50.640 mentioned Van Halen, Death Leopard, Iron Maiden. 01:28:51.039 --> 01:28:53.220 Now we find you in the world of country. How 01:28:53.220 --> 01:28:56.899 did that shift happen? Good question. Really 01:28:56.899 --> 01:29:00.859 good question. Yeah. Um, and I even questioned 01:29:00.859 --> 01:29:03.500 that too, when I was, when I first started writing 01:29:03.500 --> 01:29:05.960 music and putting it out, I would call it adult 01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:09.140 contemporary. It was kind of like a, um, Brian 01:29:09.140 --> 01:29:13.720 Adams type of, uh, adult rock, um, easy listening 01:29:13.720 --> 01:29:18.279 to some stuff. Um, but I remember playing a song 01:29:18.279 --> 01:29:19.380 for a friend of mine. Hey, what do you think 01:29:19.380 --> 01:29:22.659 of this one? Because dude, have you gone country 01:29:22.659 --> 01:29:25.479 or something? What? He goes, no, that's, that's 01:29:25.479 --> 01:29:28.939 a country. He's like, no, it's not. No. Like 01:29:28.939 --> 01:29:30.640 what? What are the harmonies in it? I'm like, 01:29:30.739 --> 01:29:32.539 yeah, there's harmonies and everything. And what 01:29:32.539 --> 01:29:35.439 are your guitar? I didn't believe him. And then 01:29:35.439 --> 01:29:42.420 the song got on the Canadian Indie Country Countdown. 01:29:43.319 --> 01:29:46.439 The Canadian Indie Country Countdown, which is 01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:52.680 like a chart that keeps tabs of anyone that's 01:29:52.680 --> 01:29:55.180 not signed to a label, but it shows like the 01:29:55.180 --> 01:29:59.399 top. uh, artists. And, and so that song, which 01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:02.840 is called signs made it to number 17 on, on this 01:30:02.840 --> 01:30:04.920 list of a hundred. I was like, I guess I'm country. 01:30:05.180 --> 01:30:08.020 I guess I'm country. Um, and I learned a little 01:30:08.020 --> 01:30:11.079 bit more about it and there was a time to, um, 01:30:11.220 --> 01:30:13.640 I'll get to that in a sec, but there was, um, 01:30:13.819 --> 01:30:17.000 I realized that country music, the more I listened 01:30:17.000 --> 01:30:22.970 to it, it offers vulnerability. It offers loss. 01:30:23.210 --> 01:30:29.250 It offers, and also is safe to sing about God 01:30:29.250 --> 01:30:34.649 and faith. I went, yeah, okay. Country really 01:30:34.649 --> 01:30:38.250 came into my life when I was working in Alexis 01:30:38.250 --> 01:30:45.109 Creek, which is kind of center of BC and to the 01:30:45.109 --> 01:30:49.529 west. And I had transferred there and I was still 01:30:49.529 --> 01:30:52.520 listening to my, like, music which was cold play 01:30:52.520 --> 01:30:55.960 and and um other adult and pop music and stuff 01:30:55.960 --> 01:30:59.560 and i i'll never forget just driving these dusty 01:30:59.560 --> 01:31:04.220 roads in in a police chevy uh colorado ripping 01:31:04.220 --> 01:31:08.520 through like flatlands and it just didn't feel 01:31:08.520 --> 01:31:10.439 right and i just listened to the music so i shut 01:31:10.439 --> 01:31:12.840 it off it was like weird i tried it again the 01:31:12.840 --> 01:31:15.859 next morning okay put my favorite cd in oh no 01:31:15.859 --> 01:31:20.510 it doesn't fit i went oh oh no and so It wasn't 01:31:20.510 --> 01:31:22.609 until I went to Walmart that was in Williams 01:31:22.609 --> 01:31:24.789 Lake. And this is when they had, you know, those 01:31:24.789 --> 01:31:28.250 big bins of CDs and people would push through 01:31:28.250 --> 01:31:29.810 them and see if there was anything, you know, 01:31:29.869 --> 01:31:32.409 one CD for 10 bucks. So here I was like, this 01:31:32.409 --> 01:31:36.989 is, oh, Tim McGraw. Yeah. Okay. And I bought 01:31:36.989 --> 01:31:40.149 Tim McGraw. I bought Alan Jackson, George Strait, 01:31:40.289 --> 01:31:44.470 Keith Urban. And I put these in the truck the 01:31:44.470 --> 01:31:49.239 next time I was working. And I laughed out loud. 01:31:49.279 --> 01:31:51.720 I rolled down my windows. This fits. This is 01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:54.739 it. It's country music. It's weird. It really 01:31:54.739 --> 01:31:57.460 was. But as I was listening to this new music 01:31:57.460 --> 01:32:00.699 of mine that had been out for years, it was all 01:32:00.699 --> 01:32:05.439 new to me. But it spoke a lot about what I was 01:32:05.439 --> 01:32:07.840 going through and experiencing and the hardship 01:32:07.840 --> 01:32:12.500 and faith. And I was like, wow. Okay. Well, country 01:32:12.500 --> 01:32:18.420 it is then. I'm really. it's funny i i there's 01:32:18.420 --> 01:32:20.020 a lot of country that it just doesn't resonate 01:32:20.020 --> 01:32:23.100 with me but there's some artists have come out 01:32:23.100 --> 01:32:25.260 recently and and of course now we're talking 01:32:25.260 --> 01:32:27.239 none of their names are staying in my head but 01:32:27.239 --> 01:32:33.100 it's it's more of a kind of folk coal miney sound 01:32:33.100 --> 01:32:36.619 you know meets country um one of the guys i can 01:32:36.619 --> 01:32:38.119 see his face i just literally watched a video 01:32:38.119 --> 01:32:41.119 before we even sat down but he did a cover of 01:32:41.119 --> 01:32:43.880 stand by me that was amazing he's got a a song 01:32:43.880 --> 01:32:48.039 called i'm a song Steven Wilson Jr. Yes. Love 01:32:48.039 --> 01:32:51.699 his stuff. Yeah. And there's another guy. His 01:32:51.699 --> 01:32:56.720 song is Nose to the Grindstone. Again, he's kind 01:32:56.720 --> 01:33:00.100 of got like a West Virginia style twang -ish 01:33:00.100 --> 01:33:03.000 thing going on. But I mean, it's just from the 01:33:03.000 --> 01:33:05.920 heart. So you've got obviously the kind of, I 01:33:05.920 --> 01:33:07.760 guess, what you would call pop country, you know, 01:33:07.800 --> 01:33:09.539 the ding, ding, ding. I got my dog and my car 01:33:09.539 --> 01:33:12.500 and my guns. But then you've got the stuff that 01:33:12.500 --> 01:33:14.869 resonates with me, which is that. reach into 01:33:14.869 --> 01:33:16.869 my chest and pull my heart out kind of music 01:33:16.869 --> 01:33:19.750 that i like so it's interesting now how that 01:33:19.750 --> 01:33:22.250 what would seem to be a lot more rigid barriers 01:33:22.250 --> 01:33:24.350 now you've got hip -hop and country artists doing 01:33:24.350 --> 01:33:26.609 stuff together and you know i like that even 01:33:26.609 --> 01:33:28.649 back in the year that you're talking about there 01:33:28.649 --> 01:33:32.409 were um i forget the film now but there was a 01:33:32.409 --> 01:33:37.239 fusion of um all the big metal bands with Public 01:33:37.239 --> 01:33:39.340 Enemy, and there was this kind of cross -pollination 01:33:39.340 --> 01:33:43.239 then too. But it's really interesting, this morphing 01:33:43.239 --> 01:33:45.840 of country now where there's this one side that, 01:33:45.880 --> 01:33:48.579 like you said, is very vulnerable and very raw, 01:33:48.779 --> 01:33:51.600 and that's actually pulling me into the country 01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:55.600 a little bit. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you're 01:33:55.600 --> 01:34:01.449 right about the delivery. uh, even, even a lot 01:34:01.449 --> 01:34:03.529 of kids that I'm seeing my daughter and, and, 01:34:03.569 --> 01:34:06.090 uh, especially she's listening to country and 01:34:06.090 --> 01:34:08.130 she just, she says, I don't know. It's just, 01:34:08.170 --> 01:34:11.270 it's, it sounds better. Um, but when I listened 01:34:11.270 --> 01:34:16.529 to it, yeah, it, there's a lot more heart and, 01:34:16.649 --> 01:34:19.810 and vulnerability that, that people like, Oh 01:34:19.810 --> 01:34:22.069 yeah, I can relate to that. That's, that's my 01:34:22.069 --> 01:34:23.869 song or I'm going through this and that's my 01:34:23.869 --> 01:34:27.670 song. And, um, you mentioned, uh, Stephen Wilson 01:34:27.670 --> 01:34:32.720 jr. I, And that was why I took one listen to 01:34:32.720 --> 01:34:35.479 that, to that man. I came into a friend's house 01:34:35.479 --> 01:34:39.859 and I'm a song was playing. And I was like, Hey, 01:34:39.880 --> 01:34:42.680 hello. How's it go? What is this? Oh, have you 01:34:42.680 --> 01:34:46.159 heard, not heard? No, it's amazing. So I had 01:34:46.159 --> 01:34:47.819 to listen to it again. And that's one of the 01:34:47.819 --> 01:34:49.659 songs I actually cover when I'm performing live. 01:34:49.739 --> 01:34:52.979 Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's just like, 01:34:53.079 --> 01:34:56.060 Oh, it hits me. It's like, if, if I wish I wrote 01:34:56.060 --> 01:34:59.100 that song, damn it. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's 01:34:59.100 --> 01:35:03.319 a beautiful song and just, yeah, evokes and you 01:35:03.319 --> 01:35:05.779 gotta be, yeah, you gotta be at that, uh, that 01:35:05.779 --> 01:35:07.739 point in your life too, where you're okay to 01:35:07.739 --> 01:35:12.260 feel it. And, uh, and some people aren't and, 01:35:12.359 --> 01:35:14.399 you know, and that's, that's okay. It's, it's, 01:35:14.399 --> 01:35:17.100 it's a time in your life when you're, when you're 01:35:17.100 --> 01:35:20.279 prepared to, to deal with stuff. So yeah, music 01:35:20.279 --> 01:35:23.239 is great. Yeah. That's why I, yeah, it's been 01:35:23.239 --> 01:35:26.310 my whole life now, which is great. When it came 01:35:26.310 --> 01:35:29.430 out, I literally was bracing myself for my son 01:35:29.430 --> 01:35:32.430 to go away for college. Now, it turned out that 01:35:32.430 --> 01:35:34.609 on paper, it just made much more sense for him 01:35:34.609 --> 01:35:36.729 to do the first two years in community college 01:35:36.729 --> 01:35:38.930 and then go. So that didn't happen in the end. 01:35:39.350 --> 01:35:42.609 But he's talking about that song being his father's 01:35:42.609 --> 01:35:46.210 favorite song. And I can see exactly why it was 01:35:46.210 --> 01:35:47.970 his father's favorite song, because even though 01:35:47.970 --> 01:35:51.289 he's singing about in theory on the first layer, 01:35:51.369 --> 01:35:53.250 well, this is music in my life. You were there 01:35:53.250 --> 01:35:54.850 when I, you know, my first girlfriend, I first 01:35:54.850 --> 01:35:58.979 got high, et cetera. really be seeing as well 01:35:58.979 --> 01:36:01.619 is that it's a parent a mother or father whatever 01:36:01.619 --> 01:36:03.739 it is maybe an older sibling that was there in 01:36:03.739 --> 01:36:06.260 the place whatever that thing is that you were 01:36:06.260 --> 01:36:08.920 there in all these steps of of this child's life 01:36:08.920 --> 01:36:11.420 and why i think it makes even more of an impact 01:36:11.420 --> 01:36:14.960 with me having fought so hard to try and get 01:36:14.960 --> 01:36:19.039 our first responders healthy work weeks and to 01:36:19.039 --> 01:36:20.500 be able to go home when they're supposed to go 01:36:20.500 --> 01:36:23.760 home to their families is how many people missed 01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:26.619 those moments because they got forced to work 01:36:26.619 --> 01:36:29.479 extra shifts and all those things. So it just, 01:36:29.579 --> 01:36:31.939 I mean, I've sobbed to that freaking song so 01:36:31.939 --> 01:36:35.359 many times. I'm not going to lie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 01:36:35.500 --> 01:36:39.960 Wow. But how amazing that is to be able to address 01:36:39.960 --> 01:36:45.000 the weight, whether it be guilt or sadness that 01:36:45.000 --> 01:36:47.279 you've missed. Even that's got to be processed, 01:36:47.500 --> 01:36:51.850 right? And it's not fun, but... No, it's life 01:36:51.850 --> 01:36:54.470 is so much more enjoyable and easier when you 01:36:54.470 --> 01:36:57.590 are not carrying yesterday's issues into today 01:36:57.590 --> 01:37:00.170 and next day. There's there's there's trouble 01:37:00.170 --> 01:37:03.750 enough for today and tomorrow. Yeah, but it's 01:37:03.750 --> 01:37:06.109 it's beautiful. And then that's that's a perfect 01:37:06.109 --> 01:37:09.970 example as to why I I'm doing what I love. And 01:37:09.970 --> 01:37:12.470 it's amazing. Yeah, to be able to write songs 01:37:12.470 --> 01:37:17.149 and evoke meaning because I just I can't help 01:37:17.149 --> 01:37:22.420 but pour my guts into it. Absolutely. 100%. All 01:37:22.420 --> 01:37:23.979 right. Well, I want to go to some closing questions 01:37:23.979 --> 01:37:26.760 before I let you go. The first one I love to 01:37:26.760 --> 01:37:29.300 ask, is there a book or are there books that 01:37:29.300 --> 01:37:31.699 you love to recommend? It can be related to our 01:37:31.699 --> 01:37:35.920 discussion today or completely unrelated. Oh, 01:37:37.420 --> 01:37:42.020 a book. When's the last time I read a book? Well, 01:37:42.180 --> 01:37:47.199 one of the first ones that comes to mind, I'm 01:37:47.199 --> 01:37:51.399 glad I found the audio book, but it's called 01:37:51.399 --> 01:38:01.159 Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey. And his stories 01:38:01.159 --> 01:38:03.960 and his childhood and the things that he went 01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:08.520 through, it's all there. He just gives it up 01:38:08.520 --> 01:38:11.560 and he's sharing these experiences. But he puts 01:38:11.560 --> 01:38:15.739 it in a way where... It's about life and progressing 01:38:15.739 --> 01:38:18.220 through it and seeing the green lights where 01:38:18.220 --> 01:38:21.199 it's like, okay, stop. This is a red light. I 01:38:21.199 --> 01:38:23.239 can't, I can't, I can't deal with this. And then 01:38:23.239 --> 01:38:26.819 he would find the solution or something about 01:38:26.819 --> 01:38:29.420 that situation. And they're, they're incredible 01:38:29.420 --> 01:38:32.460 stories. But then he would end the chapter. He 01:38:32.460 --> 01:38:34.680 goes, yeah, well, I found this out and green 01:38:34.680 --> 01:38:36.979 light. And then we go to the next chapter. I'm 01:38:36.979 --> 01:38:39.600 like, that's brilliant. That's so brilliant because 01:38:39.600 --> 01:38:46.180 he's so honest with what he went through. And 01:38:46.180 --> 01:38:49.460 I was, yeah, I was obsessed. I would even read 01:38:49.460 --> 01:38:52.140 the book now because I, and it's Matthew himself 01:38:52.140 --> 01:38:54.600 that's actually narrating his own book. So it's, 01:38:54.600 --> 01:39:00.699 you get his demeanor and the true authenticity 01:39:00.699 --> 01:39:05.880 of his feelings and the moment. It's just, yeah. 01:39:05.979 --> 01:39:08.579 So that one I recommend. And it's kind of both. 01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:11.300 It's extremely entertaining, but it's, yeah, 01:39:11.420 --> 01:39:14.909 it's another. story of another man that uh in 01:39:14.909 --> 01:39:19.229 person that uh went through some shit like wow 01:39:19.229 --> 01:39:22.649 and he's here and he's successful brilliant i 01:39:22.649 --> 01:39:24.529 know that's in my audible library still i just 01:39:24.529 --> 01:39:26.090 haven't had a chance i used to do these long 01:39:26.090 --> 01:39:28.229 long drives to see my my wife when she was down 01:39:28.229 --> 01:39:31.050 in medical school but i now i work from home 01:39:31.050 --> 01:39:33.590 so i barely ever listen to her anymore but i 01:39:33.590 --> 01:39:37.189 need right yeah all right what about tv documentaries 01:39:37.189 --> 01:39:43.550 or films okay You mentioned The Wire. That was 01:39:43.550 --> 01:39:45.289 one of my favorite series. I still have yet to 01:39:45.289 --> 01:39:50.810 finish it. I really loved when Stranger Things 01:39:50.810 --> 01:39:55.350 came out. I couldn't believe how nostalgic that 01:39:55.350 --> 01:39:58.850 was because it's modern day living in our past. 01:39:59.069 --> 01:40:03.720 Exactly. I would pause it. No way. I would see 01:40:03.720 --> 01:40:07.000 the poster that I had in my bedroom or I would 01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:09.439 see the toy that they had. And I was like, no 01:40:09.439 --> 01:40:12.600 way. So that was one of my favorites. I just, 01:40:12.659 --> 01:40:16.279 I stopped watching it a few years ago, but then 01:40:16.279 --> 01:40:18.279 I started the whole thing out because they were 01:40:18.279 --> 01:40:23.180 finalizing the series. So that one I loved. Movies. 01:40:24.300 --> 01:40:32.939 Okay. Here's one. It's called The Shack. And 01:40:32.939 --> 01:40:35.920 it stars, I forget his name, but the main actor 01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:40.920 in it is the same lead guy in Avatar. Okay. Australian 01:40:40.920 --> 01:40:46.060 guy, I think. Yeah. Who else is in it? There's 01:40:46.060 --> 01:40:50.239 a few others. And the reason why I love this 01:40:50.239 --> 01:40:53.979 movie so much is it deals with forgiveness. And 01:40:53.979 --> 01:40:58.689 that was a hard part of my healing. to actually 01:40:58.689 --> 01:41:04.310 forgive um i won't get into it too but it the 01:41:04.310 --> 01:41:09.310 movie addresses one of the hardest things to 01:41:09.310 --> 01:41:12.710 forgive where you would you would want hellfire 01:41:12.710 --> 01:41:16.890 to be burning on this person but the story unfolds 01:41:16.890 --> 01:41:20.890 in such a beautiful way um that even at that 01:41:20.890 --> 01:41:24.890 moment you you need to forgive um so that one 01:41:24.890 --> 01:41:27.880 for sure top of the list in terms of emotional 01:41:27.880 --> 01:41:31.899 impact. Like I side note, I remember watching 01:41:31.899 --> 01:41:34.399 it. Like I would have this, I think it's time 01:41:34.399 --> 01:41:36.140 to watch this movie again. Cause I'm, I'm starting 01:41:36.140 --> 01:41:39.960 to get bitter. And so I'll watch it. And I made 01:41:39.960 --> 01:41:42.239 sure that my kids were not around because I knew 01:41:42.239 --> 01:41:45.739 I was going to cry. And so here I am, I'm on 01:41:45.739 --> 01:41:48.640 the couch and I'm, my eyes are puffy because 01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:51.760 I'm this, the moments that, that it hits like 01:41:51.760 --> 01:41:56.850 the, the climax of, of the situation. I hear 01:41:56.850 --> 01:42:00.050 the door open and up the stairs comes my daughter. 01:42:01.829 --> 01:42:06.909 She's 13 or 14. And I'm on the couch. I'm like, 01:42:06.970 --> 01:42:10.829 ah, well, you know, it's okay to see your dad 01:42:10.829 --> 01:42:12.770 cry. And so it's not. And she just looks at me 01:42:12.770 --> 01:42:17.750 and goes, are you crying? Yeah. And she walks, 01:42:17.829 --> 01:42:19.289 she just looked at the screen and walks away. 01:42:19.369 --> 01:42:23.840 And she said, well, that's real masculine. see 01:42:23.840 --> 01:42:27.819 you later pussy i know i was like what i thought 01:42:27.819 --> 01:42:30.140 by showing you it's like even dads can feel stuff 01:42:30.140 --> 01:42:37.420 right but oh yeah crazy but yeah the message 01:42:37.420 --> 01:42:39.800 in that movie profound i've got to watch it i 01:42:39.800 --> 01:42:41.199 don't know if i've even had that recommended 01:42:41.199 --> 01:42:43.880 which is amazing 1200 interviews and if i have 01:42:43.880 --> 01:42:45.659 it's certainly not often so i'm gonna have to 01:42:45.659 --> 01:42:48.850 definitely look that way so thank you yeah Yeah. 01:42:48.850 --> 01:42:50.930 Yeah. I'm glad it came to mind because it's been 01:42:50.930 --> 01:42:53.470 a while since I've watched it, but yeah, that's 01:42:53.470 --> 01:42:55.789 it. Brilliant. All right. Well, the next question, 01:42:55.850 --> 01:42:57.829 is there a person you'd recommend to come on 01:42:57.829 --> 01:43:00.550 this podcast as a guest to speak to the first 01:43:00.550 --> 01:43:02.729 responders, military and associated professions 01:43:02.729 --> 01:43:13.909 of the world? Yeah. It would be Derek Sienko. 01:43:14.789 --> 01:43:20.579 He is the. the ceo and um one of the main people 01:43:20.579 --> 01:43:23.640 at diversified rehabilitation the reason why 01:43:23.640 --> 01:43:29.279 i i think of him is because he not only has his 01:43:29.279 --> 01:43:34.079 own trauma but his relationship with first responders 01:43:34.079 --> 01:43:41.399 and the police um he's like a shepherd where 01:43:41.399 --> 01:43:45.689 he's he's bringing people in um he's so supportive 01:43:45.689 --> 01:43:48.970 he's come to a lot of my shows when i'm performing 01:43:48.970 --> 01:43:54.449 and but he his kindness and sincerity but also 01:43:54.449 --> 01:43:57.930 his wisdom in in everything that he's seen from 01:43:57.930 --> 01:44:00.909 the members that come in uh and he's with them 01:44:00.909 --> 01:44:03.350 and he's watching them go through this so it 01:44:03.350 --> 01:44:12.770 would be um like a yeah getting his perspective 01:44:12.770 --> 01:44:15.770 from watching everyone going through stuff and 01:44:15.770 --> 01:44:18.170 to, to kind of find out what, what are some of 01:44:18.170 --> 01:44:21.890 the common things and what are some of the hardest 01:44:21.890 --> 01:44:24.470 things that you've seen members or people fight 01:44:24.470 --> 01:44:29.270 through and, and, and heal from. And, and the 01:44:29.270 --> 01:44:31.109 advice that he would give in terms of what to 01:44:31.109 --> 01:44:33.590 do would be, yeah, it would be very informative. 01:44:34.109 --> 01:44:36.069 Beautiful. I appreciate that. All right. Thank 01:44:36.069 --> 01:44:38.680 you. So the last question then, before we make 01:44:38.680 --> 01:44:40.720 sure where everyone knows where to find you and 01:44:40.720 --> 01:44:47.920 the concert, what do you do to decompress? I, 01:44:48.119 --> 01:44:56.100 good question. Cause I, I have ADHD so much now 01:44:56.100 --> 01:44:59.279 that everything's, I love starting things and 01:44:59.279 --> 01:45:01.159 I have finished them and then move on to something. 01:45:01.220 --> 01:45:03.060 And then, yeah, by the end of the day, I've got 01:45:03.060 --> 01:45:05.800 like more things started than, than finished. 01:45:07.410 --> 01:45:16.989 Um, how do I decompress? Well, um, praying, remembering, 01:45:17.170 --> 01:45:21.310 um, all of the things that I am grateful for 01:45:21.310 --> 01:45:24.670 to be here, the people that have helped me, um, 01:45:24.869 --> 01:45:31.329 my faith that was there and the, the yeah, the 01:45:31.329 --> 01:45:33.789 help that I received and, and to be grateful. 01:45:33.890 --> 01:45:38.079 And that was That too was a challenge because 01:45:38.079 --> 01:45:41.100 I thought I had more things to be miserable about. 01:45:43.060 --> 01:45:46.979 So part of my morning routine is when I get up, 01:45:47.020 --> 01:45:52.640 I pray, I thank God for what I have and for getting 01:45:52.640 --> 01:45:57.079 me through and providing an amazing future. There's 01:45:57.079 --> 01:46:00.439 too many miracles to count on how you did that, 01:46:00.539 --> 01:46:04.609 especially the divorce. that that could have 01:46:04.609 --> 01:46:06.770 been and should have been so much more uglier 01:46:06.770 --> 01:46:09.170 than it was but there was a grace on it there 01:46:09.170 --> 01:46:15.770 was um there was favor uh no matter how unfair 01:46:15.770 --> 01:46:19.989 it was it was there so to ground yeah to decompress 01:46:19.989 --> 01:46:24.310 just just take 10 minutes and some i've done 01:46:24.310 --> 01:46:26.880 this too where i'm like fucking mad like i'm 01:46:26.880 --> 01:46:30.659 so mad i can't and i'd start getting into that 01:46:30.659 --> 01:46:33.140 but i would stop and i remember uh and i would 01:46:33.140 --> 01:46:35.739 think okay okay hang on hang on okay i'm gonna 01:46:35.739 --> 01:46:38.560 i'm gonna name i'm gonna name 20 things that 01:46:38.560 --> 01:46:42.119 i'm thankful for and the shift that that does 01:46:42.119 --> 01:46:45.199 is incredible you start having gratitude and 01:46:45.199 --> 01:46:48.779 you start being uh thanking that and so that 01:46:48.779 --> 01:46:51.739 that is one of the quickest methods for me to 01:46:51.739 --> 01:46:53.420 do and i wish i knew that earlier because i i 01:46:53.420 --> 01:46:59.369 would um I would be hit with a wave and a punch 01:46:59.369 --> 01:47:02.130 in the gut with anxiety in the mid. I could be 01:47:02.130 --> 01:47:03.949 in the grocery store. I would have a cart full 01:47:03.949 --> 01:47:07.930 of groceries and pow. And I'm, Oh, and I, I'm, 01:47:07.930 --> 01:47:10.050 I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here, 01:47:10.069 --> 01:47:11.569 but I stuck up more. No, I don't want to be. 01:47:11.609 --> 01:47:13.050 And I've, I've left it. I've just pushed the 01:47:13.050 --> 01:47:15.010 cart away, got my truck and drove home and stayed 01:47:15.010 --> 01:47:17.890 at home for three days. Like it just like, but 01:47:17.890 --> 01:47:20.130 I wish I knew that at the time too, is like, 01:47:20.189 --> 01:47:22.430 okay, focus, focus, grateful, grateful, grateful. 01:47:22.529 --> 01:47:24.270 Cause it just changes your brain pattern. Like 01:47:24.270 --> 01:47:26.659 you got to think of positive. Right. And if you 01:47:26.659 --> 01:47:29.159 can name things that you can really be thankful 01:47:29.159 --> 01:47:36.140 for, which everyone can. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. 01:47:36.220 --> 01:47:38.560 I do a gratitude journal every morning and night. 01:47:38.640 --> 01:47:40.920 And actually I did the five minute journal, which 01:47:40.920 --> 01:47:43.859 I actually prefer just better laid out and better 01:47:43.859 --> 01:47:46.520 quotes and stuff in there. But it's just forces 01:47:46.520 --> 01:47:48.800 you, you know, when you first wake up and before 01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:50.819 you go to bed, exactly that, you know, what are 01:47:50.819 --> 01:47:53.220 you grateful for? You know? What are you going 01:47:53.220 --> 01:47:56.060 to do to set yourself up for today? In the evening, 01:47:56.239 --> 01:47:58.020 what went well? What were some of your wins? 01:47:59.199 --> 01:48:02.779 And I think that's one of the reasons why in 01:48:02.779 --> 01:48:06.199 modern day society, especially in Western society, 01:48:06.439 --> 01:48:10.640 why a lot of people struggle because we have 01:48:10.640 --> 01:48:13.380 it better than any human on the planet since 01:48:13.380 --> 01:48:16.590 the beginning of time. But we're pumped full 01:48:16.590 --> 01:48:20.449 of commercials and told by politicians that you 01:48:20.449 --> 01:48:22.710 don't have enough and the other guy is trying 01:48:22.710 --> 01:48:25.489 to take all your stuff and so that you don't 01:48:25.489 --> 01:48:28.529 have the capacity to go. I woke up. And there's 01:48:28.529 --> 01:48:31.390 food in my fridge and my kids have clothes and 01:48:31.390 --> 01:48:33.470 no one's trying to murder us at the moment. Like 01:48:33.470 --> 01:48:36.250 there's so many things to be grateful for. But 01:48:36.250 --> 01:48:38.869 it's the enemy of mental health is this divisive 01:48:38.869 --> 01:48:40.850 rhetoric that's pumped through the screens every 01:48:40.850 --> 01:48:43.630 single day from, you know, Fox and CNN and social 01:48:43.630 --> 01:48:46.989 media and all these these outlets that want you 01:48:46.989 --> 01:48:49.369 to be angry, want you to be afraid. So you buy 01:48:49.369 --> 01:48:52.989 even more of this shit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 01:48:53.069 --> 01:48:55.890 And again, if I didn't have music, I'm sure I'd 01:48:55.890 --> 01:48:58.819 be tuned in. I would have my favorite YouTube 01:48:58.819 --> 01:49:01.760 channel I'd be following and just getting angry. 01:49:02.199 --> 01:49:04.579 And once in a while, I'll give myself like five 01:49:04.579 --> 01:49:06.340 or 10 minutes of scrolling, especially if it's 01:49:06.340 --> 01:49:11.140 in the bathroom. But I find that when I do this, 01:49:11.260 --> 01:49:14.340 I leave and I'm like, I'm agitated. I'm pissed 01:49:14.340 --> 01:49:17.819 off. I mean, it's good to be informed because 01:49:17.819 --> 01:49:22.699 we need to cast our vote and our belief. But 01:49:22.699 --> 01:49:25.399 yeah, got to be careful. It really is. But yeah, 01:49:25.439 --> 01:49:28.699 music has kept me focused and away from everything 01:49:28.699 --> 01:49:32.020 else. So I have time to heal. Absolutely. So 01:49:32.020 --> 01:49:34.079 for people listening then, where can they learn 01:49:34.079 --> 01:49:36.020 all about, you know, where to find your music, 01:49:36.060 --> 01:49:38.739 the tours, and then anywhere else they can learn 01:49:38.739 --> 01:49:43.979 more about you? Yes, I got music on every digital 01:49:43.979 --> 01:49:46.760 streaming provider. So that'd be Spotify and 01:49:46.760 --> 01:49:50.600 Apple Music. music video up on YouTube as well. 01:49:50.680 --> 01:49:53.159 So, uh, just to get a search, Jonathan Williams 01:49:53.159 --> 01:49:57.140 or, uh, my handle on Instagram is Jonathan official 01:49:57.140 --> 01:50:00.359 music. And, uh, yeah, I'm pretty active on Instagram 01:50:00.359 --> 01:50:03.000 because that's kind of where people are following 01:50:03.000 --> 01:50:06.439 me and to come to shows. And, um, I'll be releasing 01:50:06.439 --> 01:50:10.579 a brand new song March 6th. Uh, and it's, it's 01:50:10.579 --> 01:50:12.560 about have it all, which is about grab it. Um, 01:50:12.680 --> 01:50:17.090 being grateful and gratitude, uh, about. just 01:50:17.090 --> 01:50:18.710 the little things in life and being a millionaire 01:50:18.710 --> 01:50:21.050 or feeling like one, because I've got this. So 01:50:21.050 --> 01:50:24.489 it's a, it's a really good, um, release for me 01:50:24.489 --> 01:50:26.489 because the last few have all been, you know, 01:50:26.489 --> 01:50:28.829 a heartbreak or goodbyes and stuff. Right. So, 01:50:28.909 --> 01:50:32.050 um, so I'm excited to put this out and it's kind 01:50:32.050 --> 01:50:34.329 of like also a change, but, uh, but yeah, yeah. 01:50:34.489 --> 01:50:37.369 Please, you know, come listen to the music, uh, 01:50:37.569 --> 01:50:40.909 um, send me any feedback, uh, favorite songs. 01:50:41.289 --> 01:50:46.810 Um, I plan on doing a tour, uh, the yeah the 01:50:46.810 --> 01:50:49.130 end of this year across canada but um i'm already 01:50:49.130 --> 01:50:51.270 speaking to another artist and we're we're trying 01:50:51.270 --> 01:50:53.489 to figure out a way to get in a motor home and 01:50:53.489 --> 01:50:55.770 and just hit the states and just keep coming 01:50:55.770 --> 01:50:58.430 we're gonna drive all the way to nashville stay 01:50:58.430 --> 01:51:00.029 there and then we'll come drive all the way back 01:51:00.029 --> 01:51:03.850 but we'll do shows along the way so yeah in time 01:51:03.850 --> 01:51:07.949 in time um i'm also um doing a lot of radio tracking 01:51:07.949 --> 01:51:10.689 with some country stations throughout the u .s 01:51:10.689 --> 01:51:14.510 um so uh yeah i hope to get on a lot more uh 01:51:14.510 --> 01:51:17.369 stations as we go but yeah it's it's you know 01:51:17.369 --> 01:51:20.569 keeps me busy that's for sure brilliant well 01:51:20.569 --> 01:51:22.510 i want to thank you so much i mean it's been 01:51:22.970 --> 01:51:24.510 I always tell people at the end of this, it's 01:51:24.510 --> 01:51:26.890 always so fascinating hearing people's life stories. 01:51:26.989 --> 01:51:29.310 I mean, everyone, everyone should do, you know, 01:51:29.310 --> 01:51:31.229 a podcast, you know, write a book, et cetera, 01:51:31.289 --> 01:51:33.069 because all of us have, you know, a powerful 01:51:33.069 --> 01:51:35.590 story. But to go from, you know, the love of 01:51:35.590 --> 01:51:38.270 music to, you know, policing and then, you know, 01:51:38.270 --> 01:51:39.970 the mental health story and then back out the 01:51:39.970 --> 01:51:43.170 other side has been amazing to hear. So I want 01:51:43.170 --> 01:51:45.130 to thank you so much for being so generous with 01:51:45.130 --> 01:51:46.989 your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 01:51:46.989 --> 01:51:50.409 podcast today. My pleasure, James. Thanks. And 01:51:50.409 --> 01:51:53.090 it was a pleasure meeting you. And I'm grateful 01:51:53.090 --> 01:51:55.090 for what you're doing and getting the word out 01:51:55.090 --> 01:51:58.289 there because it really is. It's helped me, too, 01:51:58.409 --> 01:52:01.229 just to connect and know that I'm not alone in 01:52:01.229 --> 01:52:03.869 this. And we're all going to get through it.