Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
14 -year veteran of the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police, songwriter and country artist Jonathan
Williams. Now, in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics, from his original journey into
music, his transition into policing, some of
his notable career calls, addiction in Canada,
his own mental health journey, his powerful transition
story, catharsis through performing, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you,
Jonathan. Enjoy. Well, Jonathan, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our
mutual friend, Steve Farina, for making this
introduction. And secondly, I want to welcome
you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Oh, yeah. It's a pleasure and an honor to be
here. And I'm just so grateful for that connection
to be made. Absolutely. So where on planet Earth
are we finding you today? We are in Vernon, British
Columbia in Canada. How are you guys being affected
by this massive weather storm? Is it reaching
Canada or is it south of you? It's south. It's
quite mild here, which is quite nice. I also
live halfway up to a ski resort called Silver
Star, and there is no snow. on the streets. And
usually there is. Usually I'm out there shoveling,
snowblowing, whatever it is, getting a good workout.
But no, this year, yeah, this year is quite wild.
So unless it's all building up and it's about
to hit me tomorrow and I'll be, yeah, meet a
liar. All right. Well, let's start at the very
beginning of your story then. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. Yeah, you bet. Yes, born in 1973
in Vancouver, North Vancouver. And yeah, I have
one sibling. His name is Jeremy Williams. And
yeah, my parents divorced before I can even remember.
So I really don't have any memory of dad being
around. And we just followed mom around wherever
she was going. British Columbia and we would
move kind of around BC. But yeah, it was an interesting
childhood. I live in Vernon now because there
were about seven or eight years that we lived,
my mom, my brother and I, in Kelowna, BC. And
those were the impressionable years. So after
moving to Vancouver Island, I always had a heart
for Kelowna and the Okanagan. It's a beautiful
area. And so I always knew that I'd eventually
end up here. And it was a complete life journey
before I did get here. But it was also thanks
to the RCMP of a certain amount of transfers
that finally led to moving here to the Okanagan.
Yeah. Childhood was great. It was the significant
kind of point where I'll always remember is living
on Vancouver Island and turning the age of 13.
I had grown up listening to, and I have to thank
both my parents for being really, they love music.
They played it all the time. So I was. always
listening to certain bands like the Eagles and
Doobie Brothers and Steely Dan and Gordon Lightfoot.
And so I just had this love and music that I
wasn't even aware of. So when I turned 13, I
decided to join the band in school. And the teacher
there asked me what instrument I wanted to play.
And at this time, I had been exposed to Van Halen,
Def Leppard and Iron Maiden. And so I said to
the teacher, well, I would love to play the electric
guitar. And she said, we haven't had that before.
And then she looked around the class. She goes,
class, what do you think? Should we have an electric
guitar? And they said, yeah. So I got a six string
electric guitar. Really didn't know much about
it at all. but had to learn quickly because she
asked the entire band class to learn La Bamba.
A Van Halen classic. Yeah. Well, the movie had
come out, La Bamba, and it was all about Ritchie
Valens. Great film. But there's this amazing
guitar solo in the middle of that song, and I
struggled and I worked on it so much. But in
learning the instrument for that, It just became
a love and a passion. I could hear and play the
music that I remember growing up with. So we
toured regionally and I was this guitar hero
that I would get up and play this guitar solo
and all the parents would get up and they'd clap.
And at 13 years old, I was thinking, I'm a rock
star. This is what I want to do for my life.
So I just, yeah, I went home and I spent more
time. learning how to play this instrument than
I did uh making friends and the friends that
I did have they had to play an instrument otherwise
they weren't cool to me so I uh yeah I learned
everything that I could I learned Van Halen Bon
Jovi came out and was learning that stuff and
ultimately it was Iron Maiden I mean the chops
that those guys have uh yeah I it was crazy there
was there was times where I was so frustrated
because it was just nearly impossible to play
but I focused and I learned. And so years later,
it was just playing with bands and performing.
I was too young to play in bars, but because
they needed a guitar player, I would be pulled
in from the back entrance, do the show, and then
kicked out. And I eventually moved to Victoria,
British Columbia. And this was in the mid -90s
and up to the early 2000s. And it was during
that time that I... I joined a couple of cover
bands, learned my guitar was stolen one year.
And then I thought, well, I'm not going to let
that stop me. I'm going to be a lead singer.
So I looked in the paper and there was a band
that said looking for a lead vocalist for a cover
band. I went, yeah. So I applied. I had no, aside
from just singing in the car and the shower,
I went and I auditioned and I got the part. And
I couldn't believe it. So here we are. I'm a
lead vocalist. No one knew I play guitar. And
we're opening up for, there's a lot of Canadian
legend artists that we open for. One of them
is Kim Mitchell. uh colin james then there was
5440 and uh it was amazing so we here we are
we're doing this and i finally had enough to
buy a guitar the guitar came back and i kept
growing as an artist um and so it just i just
carried that momentum up and i had no plans to
do anything else i i didn't i didn't uh go into
post -secondary education i barely got through
high school because i was like i'm a rock star
i don't need this stuff i'll be rich and famous
just you wait And then, yeah, so in Victoria,
I just lived working and kept doing music. I
had, it was around the 90, 19, yeah, the late
90s where I met my wife at the time and she wanted
to sing and she was prettier than I was. So I
thought, well, why don't we start a band? So
she did that and we started playing and again,
we just started doing the circuit. And we recorded
music and it was doing great. And this was it.
We were like building up. We were working with
certain people that had connections to Sony,
Sony records, and we were going to be presented.
But after several years of, of performing and
writing music, it wasn't in her, her heart. Like
it was in mine. And she said, yeah, I'm done.
I want to, I want to start a family. Like we're.
Well, her point was that I was now 30 and I hadn't
made it yet. It was a very valid point. But because
I was hell -bent on this, yeah, being hit with
that was my first real identity crisis because
I don't know myself without a guitar in my hand
or a microphone. So I thought, wow, what am I
going to do? And in order to provide for a family
and build a family, I needed benefits. I needed
a job that could afford buying a house and stuff.
And I had no idea. But whatever it was that I
had to do, it had to fill that void because that
amount of purpose was now empty. And like, what
else? I couldn't, I worked at a few jobs and
it just didn't fill. You know, I just felt lost.
And then I started working for, I was doing some
administrative work. It's funny. I did construction,
had long hair because it worked. And then, I
got into administration and started working with
human resources. So here I am, I've learned to
type at 82 words per minute. And I started working,
and I can see when you look back, you can see,
okay, well, that's why it happened. But I started
working for a police agency in that area. And
I was typing and transcribing reports. And I
thought it was fascinating. Like, whoa, cool,
I get to get the dirt. and learn about policing
from that front and and i even remember being
asked dude yeah what are you doing up here you
should you want to come you should be a cop man
i went no i i i type what you guys do it's awful
i've seen some of the photos that you brought
up of like people dead from from uh crash scenes
and i i thought there's no way no way um But
it was it was the seed that planted and I and
I kind of thought, well, wait a minute, you know,
like. That is a cool idea. And I remember seeing
some police situation at the time and I was living
in Vancouver and I saw this. I thought maybe
that maybe maybe I don't know. I'll apply. And
yeah, so I applied to the RCMP and it was an
11 month application process where. Even that
was memorable. I don't know if they do all the
same levels and steps to recruit as they do back
then, but I was excited. Finally, after all these
years, I was excited because I was going to do,
I was becoming something bigger than myself,
really. And it was a sacrifice. It had more purpose
and meaning because it wasn't just for myself.
It was for the community and people. And so I
was, yeah, I was really excited about this. Yeah,
and 11 months later, I had my first child, my
son. He was 16 weeks old when I got the call
to go to depot. So in Canada, when you're hired
within the RCMP, everyone, no matter where you
are in the country. Uh, you are flown to Regina,
uh, Saskatchewan and you're there for six months
at least, um, to do training. Um, and so my son
was just born. He was, I was just getting to
know this little, little guy and, and off I went
and it was heartbreaking. Um, getting in the
plane, kissing him in the car and, and just like,
oh my goodness, I'm leaving my. And again, becoming
a dad, that's, that's amazing. You, you now understand
love at such a deeper and sacrificial level than,
than any time. So here I am, I'm, you know, so
heart torn, crying all the way to, to Regina.
And I got there and it was, it was crazy just
to be immersed in a new location, totally different
people. And being. trained but there was like
harsh discipline it was very paramilitary the
way they do it there um and the uh and it was
scary because this was my only chance at obtaining
a career that i could see after working all of
these years this was that i wanted so bad and
i could during the weeks and months of training
you would see people not making it and they would
be um let go or they they would be um uh yeah
they just it would drop out and i was seeing
this and i could see the pressure um it was incredible
um but in the process i became uh i became different
i was given the authority to um help people but
also take away their liberties and uh and it
was such a an incredible opportunity and gift
really to be given that type of authority within
the country. And RCMP is a federal police organization.
So it's not municipal and within the provinces,
it's a federal agency. So the pressure to learn
and become one was higher. And so the honor that
I that I could see and feel during the process
was something else too. They, um, we all, uh,
we, we did a lot of marching. Uh, there's drill.
Um, the other key factor that I wanted to do
for not only myself, but my grandfather who's
now passed, um, he was alive at the time and
he always wanted my own father to become an RCMP
officer. And at the time, uh, My dad was nearly
dragged by his ear to go to the recruitment.
But my dad, who is 5 '8", was too short. So they
wouldn't hire people. And of course, that's changed
now. So when I went through, I'm the same height.
So I phoned him up when I went and it was in
my first week of training. I said, hey, Pop.
you'll never guess where I am at right now. He
goes, oh, where are you? I said, Pop, I'm training
to be an RCMP officer. It was silent. I could
hear him holding back his tears. And he said,
Jonathan, you are giving me a gift. That is something
I've always wanted for myself because he was
a volunteer police officer and fire, but he never
learned to read or write. He was, yeah, lived
quite the life all the way from Newfoundland.
Anyway, so it was just so amazing to feel his
pride and my own. And so I finished the six months,
went back home. I was a different person. I saw
life differently and constantly being exposed
to the reality of life in society. It is an absolute
shock. It really is. And sometimes I describe
I've just described it this way to a lot of people
is that in the matrix, there's the blue pill
or the red pill and you take the red pill and
you you see the truth. Right. And so when I became
and I started working with the police, I saw
the truth. I saw the darkness, the evil that's
out there, the the betrayal, the lies, the way
that things work. And it was. It was shocking
because it was a bubble burster for me because
I just thought, well, you know, I'm going to
be a rock star and I have a family. But to be
given the ability to actually see the world and
that other side of it, which is a huge portion,
was a lot to take. And so it took a while for
me to kind of get used to it. It just became
how I saw things, right? So you go through, you
work, you only experience certain things that,
again, aren't even made to the news. No one has
an idea. And so in doing that, and you work with
certain people that you become, and it's no wonder
it's a brotherhood. Like you're fighting for
your life in certain situations. The only one
that's going to save you is your partner. And
so that really creates a bonding experience.
And so I loved it. I loved it. So I was working
in Burnaby, which is the east side of Vancouver
and British Columbia. And I saw everything. Talk
about my feet getting wet. I saw and experienced
everything. It was amazing. And then from there,
I transferred a few places around BC and I came
to Armstrong, which is in the Okanagan here.
And, and throughout that process is, you know,
so much that had to happen, but I need to kind
of summarize what had happened, but there was,
there was the struggles of the marriage and the
relationship and the, the sacrifice that you
need to give for your kids and raising them up.
And that became the priority, but also I'm giving
the same, sometimes more time in my career because
it just demanded that you have to give everything
even more. Because you are, you're sacrificing
your safety and everything. So it became this
balancing act of personal life and work. And
that in itself was new and hard to do it. It
was never perfect. It was either one is getting
more than the other. And both, because the family
life was so... involving and required so much.
And there was certainly the struggles that were
going on there. I didn't have time to work on
that because I was dealing with lack of sleep.
The pressures of the work, the things that I
was seeing were so much more heavier and darker
than this. So this seemed easy. So when I was
doing this policing, I wasn't going home and
getting the support I needed to feel safe. I
was just leaving that, going home and dealing
with that and then going back and forth. And
so that was the struggle for years. And so I
didn't see that this was falling apart. And I
didn't see that I had a tsunami of trauma and
PTSD building. It was all like building up behind
me. And then in 2017, it all crashed. Like the
relationship was broken. And also PTSD symptoms
were at a high now. I was, yeah, going to work
crying. And then I'd be at work. I would see
something. I'd be numb to it. And then three
days later. The trauma of that occurrence, usually
it's like a sudden death or dealing with the
grief of family when they see their loved ones
dead. That would just, you know, come out. And
so, and it got worse. I couldn't put this together
because this was a falling apart. There was times
when I would be at work and I'd be talking with
someone and all of a sudden, oh my goodness,
I'm feeling sick. In full police uniform, in
a marked police vehicle. I was either going to
throw up or I was going to bawl my eyes out.
And it was that feeling was so, I didn't know.
And that's when I realized this is serious. I
have serious PTSD. I couldn't tell which one
was worse. And then I would drive away not knowing
what's going to happen. And then the bawling
would come out uncontrollably and involuntarily.
It would just come out. And it's hard to find
a hiding spot when you're in a police car. So
I would, because I knew the town enough, I knew
there were certain cul -de -sacs where I could
zip out and let it out and have to wear sunglasses
to cover up the puffy eyes and stuff. But yeah,
but then I had to stop working because I reached
a point where I just couldn't, I couldn't do
it anymore. And James, like this is, that's where.
That's where it all ended for me because I worked
so hard to earn the right to wear the uniform,
to have the authority and the responsibility.
And there was no other job that can do that.
And now I couldn't do it. I was ashamed. I was
embarrassed. And I couldn't talk to anyone about
it. And people ask sometimes, well, you know,
you're in policing. You should be getting help.
Did you not see a counselor kind of throughout
the years? And it's kind of a trick question
is, well, yeah, I did. But when you're normal
as that, you don't know. Because everyone else
that you're working with is being exposed to
the same thing. So, okay, this is normal. Dude,
did that... was that disturbing or what? And
yeah, yeah, man. Okay. Well, you don't have time
off to the next thing. And so that being the
crisis and I, this was, this was like the key
point where I knew I was in trouble is because
a lot of sudden death investigations or suicides,
especially suicides. When I was standing over
that body. the question of like, what would ever
drive anyone to think that that was an answer,
that that was a good idea. And I couldn't make
sense of it. I couldn't. And they would leave
me responsible for telling the family. There
was one instance where, yeah, I would have to
go and this old man wandered off and we found
him. And then I had to go back to the family
who were like, did you find him? Yeah. And then.
the news comes out and everyone crumbles and
you have to stand there solid. You know, I remember
like one tear kind of trying to get out, but
it was like, Nope. And the anger that I had to
like, fuck you for making me responsible for
you and telling your family that that was your
choice. They're going to remember this face for
the rest of their lives. So I was mad. I was
mad at that. So there was a lot of, dealing with
watching their grief and taking that on, but
also the responsibility of dealing with that.
And I, I was like for years, I was thinking,
I don't get it. But James, when I couldn't work
anymore and the family was crumbling, I couldn't
work anymore because of the PTSD, my identity
was, was gone. And, and with that was the joy
with that was the purpose. with that was everything
that i worked so hard for and i remember sitting
there in my by myself and i i had that realization
like that's where these people were right here
because why not no one cares i can't i'm not
capable anymore um And that was the biggest challenge.
And it took years to get through. And I'm so
glad I did because I was able to talk about it
and chat with others that were a few steps along
the way in their healing process. But ultimately,
it was my faith. There was an encounter that
I had that was pretty significant. But it reminded
me to keep going. This is just the valley that
you're in. And you can't see forward, but you'll
heal. And the promise I got was your better years
are coming. So I had to believe in that promise.
And so, yeah, so here I am now, James. In the
process of healing, a therapist said, well, what
did you do before you became a police officer?
And I went, well. I was hellbent on being a rock
star. I was going to be famous. No, I'm serious.
So they said, well, have you tried playing, picking
up your guitar again? No. And because there was
no joy, I was like, why? Why bother? So, but
that was a seed planted. I remember days later,
I thought, you know, and I just happened to have
my old guitar that I had. still had um i pulled
it out and there was a flame like there was a
little ember there of oh i love this this this
makes me feel good and it grew and then what
i realized that was the real me the real me that
i put aside to fulfill being a husband being
a police officer and and doing that i realized
that that was stuff that i put on i i loved it
but it wasn't me like it wasn't the me so when
i the more i play guitar uh and started writing
music it just came out so now this became a therapeutic
process wow okay i found sunshine i found purpose
life joy and so i started working on that And
this was during the time I was on a medical leave
due to PTSD. And for two years, you know, yeah,
for two years. So during that time, I just, I
just focused because this was like, oh my goodness,
I found something. I got to get out of this valley
of pain and suffering and confusion. So I just
learned how to produce music with the new ways
of, and I use Logic Pro if anyone's does that
stuff on their computer. um i started writing
learning about music and i started writing songs
and i started yeah doing that and really this
was just again for therapy therapeutic purposes
um and then people started listening and then
um i was invited to play uh at a small pub here
and and i thought i can't I can't do that because
I hated society. I didn't want to go out. I spent
all my time inside because with that whole understanding
of seeing the world the way it was, especially
having it all crumble in and implode on me too.
I was like, no, no. Play and sing in front of
people who I don't care about. But I did it anyway.
I was like, you know what? Yeah, why not? But
that became my exposure therapy. It became my
way of letting go because the phantom uniform
was still on. I could still feel the yellow stripes
on my legs when I was walking into the pub to
play for the first time. And my instincts were
like, okay, who's the guy that's going to be
a jackass? Who's the guy that we're going to
have to subdue and make sure that I don't have
to fight? But then I also felt, oh my goodness,
I have no tools. I have no radio. And so I had
to deal with that, that panic of anxiety and
getting up on the stage and setting things up
and hearing the ruckus and some drunk people
in the corner. I was like, oh, this is hard.
This is really hard. And so I did it. I set up.
I started playing. And people were clapping.
And usually it's like, fuck you, pig. Piece of
shit. Who called you? But it was like, woo -wee.
Yeah, another one. And so that became new to
actually be appreciated. to be wanted and i was
wow so i was wearing that too the the no one
wanted me around i was you know people how when
they're forced with their consequences their
bad decisions guess whose fault it was to take
their license away guess whose fault it was to
you know that their life is shit and that they're
in jail right so so now i was receiving that
so that was another healing element of like oh
my goodness wow so that was part of the process.
And so James, uh, in, in the couple of years
of doing that, I performed more, I've written
more. Uh, I now have a music producer that I
work with here in Vernon who is connected with
the country scene in Canada. And so we've written
music together. We've sent the music down to
Nashville. It's recorded in Nashville. It's sent
back. I do my singing and some guitar playing
on it. And then it's released. And it's now on
the radio. It's now playing on, well, I had one
song playing on Sirius XM. I couldn't believe
it. And this is just a therapeutic process. And
the funny thing is, too, is that there are a
lot of officers right now who think that Constable
Williams just, you know, he found an easy way
out. He's using this benefit of being on medical
leave to become a rockstar again. And I'm like,
no, no, you have no idea. No idea. So it's just
amazing that when you, when who you are and you,
and you follow that somehow you get favor because
people want to know. And so, yeah, so the future
now looks like this. 2016 is, I've got a brand
new song that's going to be released. I have
the radio station that's going to be, hosting
the event. I'm the headliner. I have other artists
that are going to be performing in the opening
for me. And this will kick off another tour.
And the big one here is in fall, I'm going to
be connecting with and working with the RCMP
Veterans Association and the National Police
Force to give an account, give my story. Because
what I didn't realize too is that to, to, to
share this is, is, is giving hope to others that
are right where I am. And I've gotten calls from
other members and I've, I've pointed them in
the right direction. And some even went to the
same five week rehabilitation program that I
went. It's called a diversity rehabilitation
here. And that's, that's how I met Steve. And
that's how I met other, other people that were
huge mental health advocates. And wow, dude,
like. I met, I have a new family now. I have
a purpose and, and I'm living and I'm right back
to where I was when I was 20 again, but it's,
it's coming true. It's amazing. So yeah. Wow.
Like if there's any, yeah, any, any, anything
I could say after all of that too, it's just
hold on, hold on. You know, this, it will make
you so you'll love life even more. Because you'll
have been exposed to it. And all of those scars
that I had that were, that left me hating society,
hating people, not trusting, being betrayed,
losing and stuff. They became now badges, not
scars anymore. They became badges where it's
like, I can fucking do this. This is awesome.
Yeah. So there you have it. Love it. Well, I'm
going to go all the way back to early life. I've
got several things I want to ask you, but now
as you sit here with a 2026 lens, having found
some therapeutic elements that really helped
you out of the darkness. And understanding that
most of us that put a uniform on were actually
driven to that profession somewhat because of
struggles in early life. And, you know, whether
it's wanting to be part of something, whether
it's want to, you know, be there to protect people,
be so busy that you're filling a void. There's
all these different elements that contribute.
When you reflect back now, were there any elements
of your early life you think that contributed
to the PTSD and uniform? Yeah, absolutely. There
is abandonment, which is something I remember
experiencing at a young age. And it really made
betrayal that much more harsher to experience.
But the purpose, and I realized that becoming
a musician and wanting to be a rock star is in
a way proving to myself that I am worth. that
I'm worth love I'm worth all of those things
and I didn't I didn't know that I I believed
I didn't and and it that caused me to be in certain
relationships that uh never were fulfilling because
I I was at a position where I kept serving um
thinking that that is going to validate my existence
and and meaningfulness and Deserving of love.
Yeah, no, it wasn't. And no wonder that these
high achievements was what I needed to satisfy
and tell myself that I'm worth something. I've
had such a diverse spectrum of guests. And as
far as trauma, everything from being a middle
child and just not feeling loved. And I've witnessed
that particular family. And I saw that very element
that my friend was suffering from. all the way
through to a young, well, now kind of my age,
a boy from Sierra Leone who was forced to be
a boy soldier after his parents were murdered.
So on paper, you know, one seems worse than the
other, but to those individuals, each is equally
as damaging. But with so many people that one
or both parents left or they were adopted before
they even knew the parents or one or both parents
were addicts or in prison, there's this constant
feeling of why wasn't I good enough? Whether
it was good enough for them to stay, good enough
for them not to use the bottle or the needle.
And then they end up chasing exactly like you're
talking about, that validation of I am good enough.
And I think sadly, going back to the industry
that you're in now, our musicians, our actors,
you know, they get to this pinnacle where they're
adored by millions and millions of people. And
in many, many cases, Chester Bennington, for
example, it still wasn't enough because we never
got to that thing beneath the thing, as they
say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an amazing piece
of wisdom that it takes sometimes a lifetime
to understand. Absolutely. Well, speaking of
addiction, you mentioned Burnaby. I had the same
exact thing. I was a farm boy from England, grew
up with sheep and horses and all that stuff.
And then fast forward a few years. Now I'm an
American firefighter working in these urban sprawls
and seeing exactly what you're talking about.
When I think of Vancouver, I've actually got
Dr. Gabor Mate coming on the show soon. But I
think of the addiction epidemic, the opioid crisis
that you guys have there. What were some of the
ahas when the curtain of society was pulled back
to your previously somewhat innocent eyes? Right.
Yeah. Again, that is another shadow in the dark
that people aren't. aware of um and we we saw
it all the time i can't count how many um sudden
deaths that i went to because of overdose oh
here's another one even the coroner um multiple
times you again you know i'm like hey another
one yeah yeah it was an absolute crisis and this
was in uh it really i was in the okanagan here
at the time um and this was between the years
of uh uh, 2015 and 2017. Uh, and it was, it was
awful. Um, and I remember having, uh, I had arrested
a dealer and I had them in the back of my car.
Um, and, and I, I like to open up the conversation,
you know, just to have them talk about stuff
and not for the purpose of, I mean, sometimes
it's helpful because it's like, Oh, that's a
piece of evidence. Thank you very much. But sometimes
it's, it's like, so why? dude, why? Uh, it was
fentanyl. So fentanyl was, uh, was the drug of
choice, um, that was being brought in. And, and,
you know, of course, when you learn it, uh, through
the news, like that's awful. Why would people
do this? So I had, uh, I had the dealer in the
back of my car and I said, do you realize probably
and kind of wonder how many deaths you're responsible
for? for bringing this into our community. And
because, you know, a lot of them are on high
on their own stuff and they've been awake for
three, four days. He was just kind of like, yeah,
well, you know, that's dude, like that's what
they want. What do you mean? It was, that's what
they want. I have other things. They ask for
it specifically. Wow. You know, incredible. And
And to know that that's happening, you know,
again, it's hard to have that perception because
there is, it's almost like, well, it actually
is, society's living in their own bubble. And
so when you become a first responder and you
see all the things that people don't, It's hard
not to think everyone is ignorant. And this is
part of the reason why it's hard to actually
have friends that aren't first responders. Because
they'll ask the dumb questions and they won't
know. And it's not an arrogant feeling of like,
you know, don't get it. There's the weight that
you carry with that, too. And they can't connect.
And so it's, it's no, yeah, it's no fault of
theirs. It's just, yeah, you really become a
different person. And again, it's, it's an honor.
It's a privilege. I would definitely do it again.
And I loved every year that I spent, but yeah.
Wow. To, to have that experience and to be given
that. entrusted with that level of responsibility.
Yeah, it really makes you different. What really
gets me, when I first came to America, it was
2002. And ironically, a couple of years into
that, my ex... had worked for this physician
when we were down south florida broward county
which uh if anyone is familiar with the you know
the the genesis of this crisis that will ring
a bell but this she she was basically getting
all these people from all over the country coming
and he was doing you know writing prescriptions
and then sending them back to you know new jersey
new england wherever it was and luckily she kind
of didn't really figure it out so much it just
felt like this isn't right there's something
wrong with this and so she stepped away and that
was not too long before the pill mills and some
of these other things were taken down but when
you look at the you know where we are now is
oh these addicts you know why don't they just
you know wake up one day and get a job and make
good choices but you look at the origin story
of purdue farmer with their fda approved oxycontin
and how they deliberately targeted mining towns
and places where industry was starting to fail.
And there was a mental health crisis, which was
exactly what the cartels mirrored, you know,
after the pill mills were closed down with their
black tar heroin. And then here we are with fentanyl.
And it just breaks my heart because it's not
that these, you know, kindergartners said, what
do you want to be when you grow up? Oh, I want
to be an addict. Me too. Let's go try fentanyl.
You know, there's this childhood trauma and all
these other things that lead you to then this
introduction of this pill that should never have
been prescribed the way it was prescribed. And
now you've got the perfect storm for the beginning
of addiction. Exactly. Yeah. Profound. It really
is. And it's hard for people to get trusted information
about that, too, because, you know, the media
will spin it a certain way. Other people that
have experience will spin it a certain way. And
it's hard to even share with my kids. They were
so young, they really didn't know what it was
like to have a dad as a police officer. But now
that they're entering into their teens, my daughter
says, Dad, I wish you were still working. Why?
Because you could take me out on the police car.
Oh, yeah, of course. And she can't no longer
say, well, you better be nice to me. Otherwise,
I'll get my dad out to you type thing. So that's
funny. But yeah. How do you prepare the people
in your life that are closest to you for that
without giving them the weight that you would
carry, right? You almost have to like, ah, how
do I explain this in a way that you can still
enjoy life and not hate people, but be well -informed,
right? And it comes all the way to not only drugs,
but also predators on the internet. You know,
the people that are playing Roblox and other
games. And I would be hearing that my kids are
playing this. And I, you know, I just, it's so
hard. And there's that stress. And of course,
data, it says I can't play it anymore. And you
become the bad guy, even though I'm protecting
you. Right. So, yeah. I've written two books,
and the most recent one I'm in the process of
turning into a TV show. Still very early stages.
It's not going to be out on Amazon next week
by any means. But what is so frustrating, and
you can see this is almost what you were alluding
to a second ago, is... you know, people say,
for example, what's the worst thing that you've
seen, you know, and it's a careful what you wish
for. If you could do like they do in some of
the films, you know, they put their hand on the
person's head and they relive all your shit.
And then they, you know, crying in a ball on
the floor is like, well, you fucking asked me,
but it's so I'm like, well, how can we do that
in a more gentle way? And this is what I'm, I'm
going to be doing with this because when it comes
to law enforcement, I've had a lot of people
say the wire. And if you ever watched that show,
but that was one of the closest things to actually
seeing. And what I, love about that show is that
you're not just seeing a cop drama you're seeing
you know the households of the kids that become
the dealers you're seeing the failed loss you
know the court system and you know the politics
behind it and really telling the whole story
and i think that's it because we do live in a
bubble absolutely and we don't have to see them
show them everything Because then we'd have everyone
with PTSD. But you can really give people the
raw view because there's so much to learn from
the fire, the police, the EMS, the dispatchers,
the people in the jails. Those are the people
that see society as it is, which is a great cautionary
tale. But like, hey, all these things that you
say are working aren't working. We need to do
things differently. So I think there's so much
value in... allowing people to see some of the
things that we see in a digestible way so that
we can then start forcing change because a politician
is going to get there and tell you, oh, crime's
gone down. But you have the officers in that
city going, what the fuck are they talking about?
We just took, as you said, our eighth person
to the morgue from murder, from overdose, whatever
the thing is. So I think it's really important
to give our first responders the voices to just
say it, tell it the way it is, you know, so that
then the average person can understand, like
you said, be wary of certain things they need
to be wary of. But also, if there's an issue
that's not being fixed, that we can actually
fight to fix it. Yeah. Exactly. And this is why
I love listening to podcasts such as this, James,
because it's a community where we can be a part
of. Sure, you're just a listener, but wow, when
someone is explaining something that they went
through and they hit on stuff that you felt deeply
and alone in, it's like, wow, okay. There's so
much healing to that. And so providing this,
James, yeah, bravo. This is so good. Well, like
I said, hopefully on the screen, a lot more people
watch TV than they do listen to podcasts and
even less people read. So the book is great,
but my goal is to grab people by the throat through
cinema. You mentioned about the struggles though.
One of the conversations, and we're basically
the same age, so when we were younger, you would
hear people say suicide is... You know, it's
cowardly. It's selfish. Think of your family.
How could you? And then I start a podcast and
I listen to people who, you know, were right
there at that point. And some of them went through
with their attempt and survived. And thank God,
most of them were pulled back at the last minute.
And there's two common denominators that basically
are there at every single story. One is a clear
wanting for the suffering to end. They're tired.
They're just, you know. They don't have the energy
anymore. But the other side, which is rarely,
rarely discussed, is through the perfect storm
of all things, because it's not a thing. It's
not that you saw what you saw in the job. It's
the unaddressed childhood trauma. It's the sleep
deprivation that you alluded to, you know, the
organizational betrayal, the side effects of
meds and alcohol and, you know, insert all these
things, relationship problems, finances, and
now you have this perfect storm. It seems that
the brain becomes so miswired that their entire
reality is distorted to the point where they
truly believe that they are the reason that their
family are hurting. And if they just remove themselves.
Everyone else would be happy in that distorted
state, making suicide arguably courageous and
selfless. And then in your community, you've
got the means of suicide on your hip as well,
which makes it even worse. Now to the healthy
mind, obviously that doesn't make any sense,
but we're not talking about a healthy mind. We're
talking about a mind that's been degraded. So
with your own personal journey, did you have
any of those whispers in your mind too? Absolutely.
Yeah. That point where I lost everything. um,
and couldn't do anything and, and felt, uh, yeah,
that loss of joy. Amazing. You know, just that
three lettered word joy. When, uh, when I experienced
that to be empty, gone, um, there was, it was
the lack of purpose. It was the, the lack of,
uh, understanding, uh, where I was. And you're,
you're exactly right, James, because If I was
to do a pulse check on my mental health, on where
I was, I would be able to list, okay, wait a
minute, hang on. I haven't slept in days. I'm
on medications to help with that, and I'm still
balancing that out. I'm alone. I don't care to
eat. I don't want to do anything. And the depression
is really, it's a... it's a physical weight that
doesn't reach a certain point. It just gets heavier
and heavier. And so, yeah, there were moments
where I, I too reached that point of like, I,
I don't think anyone would care. I, I don't care.
I didn't, I didn't get to the point of now thinking
about it because being an officer and apprehending
people. under the mental health act i knew the
warning signs so i kind of stopped myself from
thinking of the means of how to do it um but
if something happened to me i'd be like yeah
i don't care um and so yeah it's it's a i i'm
in some ways now when i look back i'm glad i
understand that because when you do talk to some
people um they trust you With your advice. And
that was the other hard thing too. Being in therapy
is the therapists and counselors and psychologists
that I spoke to. I, I was listening to them,
but I'd be like, yeah, that's great advice and
all. I, but I would want that advice coming from
someone who knows what I'm feeling. I, yeah.
And so there, it took a while for me to trust
even the people that were trying to help me because
you're alone in it. You are like, have you ever
experienced that? Have you, you know, well, doctors,
you know, they go through that too. Yeah. Doctors
have the safety of the hospital. I have to get
in a car with a gun on my, and go to this person's,
the crazy person's house. Like. so the the stakes
are so much higher so anyway yeah so i i just
i would it took a while for me to begin there
was one particular therapist that uh i connected
with um and that was during the the five weeks
of uh a therapy that i did uh in -house with
diversified um and it was the consistency and
it was and this is why i i i wish i would want
anyone don't wait until it like falls apart.
I would, I wouldn't want, I'd be an advocate
to say, okay, every three years, guys, you're
going, you're going to have a, um, a week stay
so that you can actually feel safe. Because one
of the, one of the things that I found worked
the most is that I was able to accept advice
and help because I had been in a place long enough.
It was outside of my own home. But I was in a
place long enough where I finally felt I could
trust the people. And then I felt safe. And then
I realized, oh, that took two weeks for my guard
to go down. Right? Because we're always, oh,
got to go. That's why it's like, well, have you
seen your counselor? Yeah. I spent an hour in
her office. Sure, I shared a couple things. But
the thing is, I got to put the guard back on
and get out. So to have five weeks where you...
um you go and you're just there and you're processing
wow one of the therapists told me he said well
i said i'm i've been off for two years i get
it i'm starting to get this like oh like some
there has to be a change or a decision either
i'm going back to work or i'm retiring and the
therapist said how can you make such a judgment
call when how many years were you were you working
for well 12. And each day, each one of those
days that you work, how many times did you experience
trauma? I see where you're going with this. Okay.
All right. So do you expect to become normal
again after two years? Even now, the last day
I worked was January 2021. And I'm still working
through the process, still working on sleep problems.
trust issues, right? It's guys, you don't just
retire, you know, you, you, you have to transform
and it takes a long time. So, so did you actually
on paper retire or are you still? Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. I had to, and that was hard too.
Um, and for anyone else that has, has pulled
the pin, uh, there's, there's a huge feeling
of giving up of. Again, I can't do this anymore.
I'm failing my family. Right. And the two years
that I was off, how much work extra work did
I make for everybody? Right. There's that, that,
that you're needed so much and you want to, but
to, to, it takes so much time and effort to,
to finally. to stop, to stop working and stop
thinking that way, to stop sitting in a restaurant,
making sure the wall's not at your back and you
can count the exits and how many people are in
there. It's programming. And now it's hard. And
we see that as kind of like part of the trauma.
But I realize also that, no, those were skills
and training to keep you alive. Right. Okay.
I get it. but yeah getting back to the the retiring
the hardest part was to put all of my um gear
that didn't belong to me that wasn't mine into
a cardboard box and drive it to the detachment
and and give the box to them and again it's it's
like like in my red surge and things i worked
so hard to actually get in the honor and standing
in you know here it is And I have to, you know,
there's so much, you know, people have no idea.
Like, yeah, you just quit a job and just go get
something else. No, I'm every cell in my body
is that even though I'm not wearing the uniform,
that's who I am. The identity. So identity crisis
is really, that's where suicide becomes in the
equation. Who am I? I don't know who I can't
do this anymore. That's who I am, but I can't
do it anymore. So I'm no good. Yeah. Well, again,
if you think about that little boy that had that
trauma that was buried down, that put on a uniform,
or a little girl, has that tribe, that purpose,
that kind of level of excitement where you don't
have to think about stuff too much, and then
you throw in overtime, forced or voluntary, so
now you're doing even more. And then whatever
happens, whether it's a full career or an injury
or a termination, or even a promotion to a desk.
And now all of a sudden, but let's say you actually
transition out the career completely. Now all
that's gone. And now in theory, you're still
that little boy or that little girl in an arguably
broken body. If you've been ridden hard and put
away wet, as we say. And now you're on the back
end. And all the coping mechanisms that you had
at work in a positive way. are gone and your
tribe and your identity and your purpose and
your feeling of self -worth because i used to
love that driving home even if i'd just been
kind to a person and it was a non -emergent call
you still made a difference in someone's life
and now you're the at the back end of that so
and this is what really kills me is when you
see statistics about first responders are like
we lost x amount you know to this or x amount
to that Well, unlike the military that has the
VA, when that door closes, you know, hits your
ass the last time, you cease to be a statistic.
But I would argue that most of the people that
we lose are the ones that are transitioned out,
our retirees, whether it's cancer or heart disease
or suicide or overdose, the premature deaths.
I mean, knowing how many retirees there are versus
active duty, I would say our stats are probably
10 % of how many we lose directly to the job
prematurely. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. And I didn't
know this or see this or understand it until
I was now a number on on mental health and medical
leave. Yeah. And you're right. It's it really
is. It's significant. And it tells the and it
shares. uh really the the totality and the responsibility
that first responders have that the expectation
that society has i need help therefore come um
there's um yeah there's so much at stake and
um yeah that needs to be out and and this is
why again having a podcast and being able to
share it where anyone can actually tune and listen
to it um is so helpful Because it's not just
reading an article or seeing our faces as we
talk about it. It's genuine. It's true, right?
So it's a beautiful thing. One of the kind of
ideas that I had, again, after listening and
really having my eyes open, I always give credit
to Jake Clark from Save a Warrior for really
making me think about unaddressed childhood trauma.
Um, but understanding that if you're towing the
line for a professional uniform, there's a good
chance that you had, you know, struggles and,
uh, uh, the ACE score, you know, uh, adverse
childhood experience score on average, supposedly
we have 10, uh, six out of 10 in first responders
and military and so to incarcerated people. So
there we go. Same kind of human. You either had
a good or a bad mentor in your life and you took
a left or a right. Um, but understanding that.
what I would love to see is rather than this
box checking psych test, polygraph, all this
bullshit that we do. And ironically, I just interviewed
a polygraph specialist a couple of days ago.
I would love to see a conversation where, all
right, the fact that you're standing here when
99 % of the community wasn't interested, you
probably carried some shit through this front
door. And that is. absolutely fine so as importantly
as we're going to pt your body we're going to
pt your mind and we're going to start counseling
in this first year and then like you said there's
going to be an ongoing thing it's just going
to be a treadmill where you're constantly tuning
up and i want to see a shift from this whole
kind of like really sad messaging of mental health
to performance because it gives the same exact
result but if we're like jonathan You would have
brought some stuff in. If it's been addressed,
awesome. You're going to have some fun conversations
with the counselor and you're just simply going
to be making a relationship with someone that
you keep tuning up in. If there are some things
that have been left unaddressed, they're going
to rise to the surface. You're going to process
them and you're going to become more resilient,
more empathetic. But the primary purpose outside
of that is we're going to keep your mind tuned
up. So God forbid you have to pull your weapon
on a traffic stop. You have that ability to get
in that flow state and make the right decision
to pull your weapon or to not pull your weapon.
So that's what I want to see is have this conversation
at the front door and look less at, oh, you know,
the sad PTSD, broken minds, you know, kind of
storytelling that we've done and more like this
is about forging performance. Now that journey
might include taking you from a kind of depression,
anxiety state before you get to zero, before
you get to then flow state. But I think if we're
always looking at the mind as a weapon, the same
way as our body is, now you're framing it differently.
And now it becomes a continuous training thing
rather than, well, hey, let me know if you're
about to shoot yourself and then we'll see if
we can get you a phone number. Yeah. Yeah, it's
investing in longevity and stamina that we need
to do it. And, you know, the public is not wrong
in expecting perfection. Because it has to be
done on the street in seconds, but also has to
be done in the courtroom. No one wants to be
wrongfully charged or, you know, dealing with
a situation where our actions are incorrect.
And there's, again, there's so much weight on
that. And that's part of the humanity of first
responders that people... uh don't know and sometimes
don't want to know i don't know i don't care
if you are struggling or i don't care if you're
divorced or i don't care if you just came from
a dead body and still stink of death i need your
help you need to do this for me right and and
what do we do yes sir yes sir yeah um it's it's
a duty it's an honor it's a sacrifice um and
this is just the the negative side of of that
choice that we have, that work that we wish to
do. And, you know, it's no wonder we sacrifice
ourselves because we do it every day to help
others. So when do we have that mindset to take
time for yourself? Okay. Is everyone good? Is
everyone good? Okay. I'm going to go have a cry.
You know, it doesn't work. And I can understand
how hard it is to implement. a program. But we
are in dire need of it. We really are. And that's
why it's easy for me to say when I look back,
wow, if I had, even if I complain about it, oh,
dude, so are you on next block? Are you working?
No, dude, I got the block off because I have
to go to mental health. Oh, that sucks. Yeah,
I know. Because you don't think it. And you can't,
really, you can't think it either. Because I
have to be strong. uh, I have to be strong for
him. I got to be strong for, so it doesn't come
natural. That's the norm. And, and so that was
my answer too, for, for people who are saying,
well, why didn't get help earlier? Cause I didn't
need it. Or at least I told, I was told, and
I believed I didn't because everyone else is
working there. They're not going and seeing people.
Right. So, and it's, it's also a sign of weakness,
you know, and that's the other thing too, is
weakness. Like I, you know, do you got my back?
Yeah. Yeah. But I heard you just, you just got
back from therapy are you good yeah i'm good
like better okay but you sure you know yeah it's
it's such a a really complicated uh subject um
the the livelihood and well -being of of first
responders um it really is it's uh i have a few
friends too that they'll be driving and they'll
call and say hey i got a cop question Yeah, bring
it on. So there'll be some traffic. It'll be
a question. I just saw someone do this. And what
do you, so I still enjoy answering those questions,
but I, you know, not only should first responders
have like mandatory every year, good week off,
but society public should have mandatory ride
alongs so they can see for themselves. Everyone's
a good armchair cynic when it was like, oh, he
drew his gun too fast. And oh, yeah, he stepped
on him too hard. That was bad. No, go. Everyone
should have this mind opening kind of, wow, I
had no idea. Okay. I respect law officers. I
respect fire. I respect ambulance because the
shit that you guys deal with every day, I get
to see it. And thank you so much. So really,
it's awareness, not only for ourselves, but also
the public. Yeah. You know, we're seeing it in
the gen X, gen Z, and it just keeps getting worse
with the, um, the, the expectations. No one has
to worry. No one has to, um, work hard because
it's, it's all given to them. Right. It wasn't
for us. And, uh, yeah, I love how we're, uh,
we're part of the cooler generation, right. We
were pre screens and moving. And so we know the
dangers and yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's really
cool time for. for us to have that, uh, that
overlap where like, yeah, where it's right in
the middle of that. Yeah. But we should be the
ambassadors. I think a hundred percent, like
we have such a unique position where we are straddling
that line of, you know, pre and post computers
basically. Um, you know, and I'm seeing this
now is just talking to somebody the other day.
There is a. a romanticization of our childhood,
the, you know, seventies, eighties from these,
these Gen Z's now. And my son has a record player,
for example, you know, so, and so if we're going
to revisit that, we can revisit all the good
stuff, you know, and the kindness and compassion
and community and a little shared suffering once
in a while, you know, falling off bikes and being
out there and, you know, when it pisses down
with rain and it's cold and you just suck it
up. Walk home, you know, but then the lessons
learned. But don't suck it up, buttercup, when
it comes to your mental health. And to your point
where you're saying about, oh, yeah, I took the
blocks off of mental health. Imagine if we reframed
it. Are you working next week? No, no, I've got
brain dojo. Oh, man, I love brain dojo. You're
going to come back even sharper, huh? Yeah, I
am. You know what I mean? Same exact conversation,
different end result. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
And the way it's given. And that kind of came
true too when I did take my medical leave to
realize the benefits that we had as RCMP and
other agencies have. I had no idea. Really? I
have that benefit? Why? I've been working all
these years. I never once went and saw a chiropractor.
All these years, I never went and got a massage
and did massage therapy. It's crazy. And it's
not really encouraged. When you're at the office,
at least it wasn't for me. So getting into mental
health and really making myself a priority to
heal, I'm so grateful to have the benefits that
I did and to have the safety net that was there
for me to fall. Yeah. So it's really good. Brilliant.
Well, early on. when you transition from music
into policing and there was that pressure to
provide and have stability and have benefits,
et cetera, et cetera, it seems very sensible
to pretty much everyone that's listening, I'm
sure. But then when you move forward through
a career in the first responder professions,
there's also, okay, but is this everything? Like,
you know, I'm going to have a pension if I just
do this many years and, you know, health care,
et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, a the time
with your family, which I think is so important,
but be your own burning desire to be able to
fulfill other things as well. So on the back
end now, talk to me about, you know, being able
to be home all the time, obviously touring aside.
And then also that burning desire, that other
part of your identity that was music. um, you
know, tapping back into that as far as the catharsis
and your healing journey. Yeah. Uh, it, uh, it
comes right back to identity, uh, to, I couldn't
get back into this and feel it unless I let go.
Um, so there's, uh, yeah, there's a song that
I'm working on. That's kind of around that where
it's, it's letting go. Um, and I am. I'm grateful
again. I'm grateful that I had the opportunity
to really see the world. It shaped my character.
I have a lot more to sing about. Talk about like,
you know, give me a good idea to write a song.
Well, I got a few. So, yeah, it's been a really
beautiful process of... of letting go and embracing
the next chapter. And to believe that there is
a next chapter. That was the other thing too,
is that when everything stopped and I couldn't,
that definitely filled and made the feelings
of depression even heavier. Yeah, so I'm really,
I'm grateful. Again, I have a benefit of being
able to take a medical retirement. There's some
perks to that. And it was, again, it was hard.
I would rather have stayed and worked to the
20, 21 years in a day to maximize my pension.
But I'm just getting by. And that's where my
faith is being, validated. Okay. It's going to
be okay. It's going to be okay. Um, you're, you
know, things are going to happen. Um, and so
to, to embrace this next chapter, uh, is, is
great. And I still don't know how far it's going
to go. I still don't know, um, what will happen,
but to embrace the unknown is, is another new
thing I got to do policing and, and, uh, it was
very structured. You had to know the outcome.
You had to know the, get to the bottom of things,
the investigation. Whereas I have to live day
to day. Like, I don't know, you know, I hope
my song gets on the radio. I hope it makes some
money so that I don't have to be on. Yeah. Or
just get through on, on the, the bit of pension
that I have. So, but I'm, I'm genuinely happy.
In a lot of ways, when I look back at, having
lost everything. It was an exodus where everything
had to be stripped away. Otherwise, stubborn
me would be hanging on to it. No, let's work
this marriage out. I don't believe in divorce.
No, I'm going to keep going to work because I
need that pension, you know, and that's what
everyone says. I'm going to work 20 years and
do this. But from, yeah, you know, someone's
looking over me because really, All of that had
to go for me to let it go and to be alone and
to embrace the next chapter. And it's so refreshing.
And this is, again, it's like, yeah, if you're
in the, for anyone, if you're in the middle of
your struggles, if you're in the middle of the
darkness, you have no idea what's going to happen.
Just wait, wait, pray. Because you can't experience.
that next level of either responsibility or joy
or happiness until you've learned what you could
through this, this portion of your life. And
I, uh, you know, people ask, well, you know,
you went right back to music and, um, you lost
a lot of years. Uh, how are you going to do this?
And I, I feel like it wasn't meant to be until
now, if I got a record deal. when I was 20 years
old. I may have been a wreck. I may have been
an addict. I may have gotten into trouble. I
may have had a whole different life. But now
I am here. I made it through a lot of stuff,
and I am thankful for it. I can appreciate life.
I can give good stories and help people through
certain things. So I think that's where this
is going. where I'm going to be sharing music,
what is me, but also sharing the story of how
to get through. And the tour name that I have
for later this year is called Boots, Bars, and
Battle Scars. So it's the, you know, I'm going
to be playing in bars. I definitely wore the
soles of my boots down thin and then the battle
scars. right? Like let's all, let's all share.
And so, um, yeah. And I'm still getting, trying
to get comfortable with that, to be vulnerable
up on stage and not just having a conversation
with one or two people. I'm in front of like
hundreds, you know, and, and, uh, giving my,
you know, sharing it, writing a song. There's
a song I have that, uh, it's called stay with
me. And, uh, I wrote this two years ago in December
because, um, feeling that wave of, of depression.
And it still comes once in a while. It was just
all of a sudden, I feel like shit today. Like
I wear that joy and know it. Yeah. So I wrote
this song because I recognize that depression
was not me. It was, it had infiltrated me. It
was telling me the lies of no one cares. Life
sucks. But then there was a moment where I just
remember feeling like a blip of like, that's
not me. I went, ha, you sneaky little shit. So
depression. So I decided to write a love song
about the toxic love that depression has for
us. Because it tells it, it tries to give you
advice. It tries to tell you and protect you.
You know, don't go out. Don't, you know, you
don't need that. And so I wrote, yeah, stay with
me. It's a love song. between myself and the
depression that I was fighting. So again, it's
a great way to really put an experience and a
feeling into a song that can be sung and understood.
You alluded to earlier that you had a spiritual
experience that kind of changed your trajectory
a little bit. Do you want to share what that
was? Yeah, absolutely. It was the point where...
I had hit rock bottom and, uh, and where hope
was brought. And this is amazing. It was, um,
I was still in the process of, of trying to work,
trying to fix the marriage and, and in that struggle.
Um, and I was, I was sobbing because of a betrayal
that had happened and it was just so devastating.
Um, and so I, uh, um, to pause there for a moment
um i'm a christian i didn't become one until
i was uh in my mid -30s um after experiencing
my mom being been given a miracle of life she
had cancer and she was supposed to die in three
or four months but um yeah she's cancer -free
because of her own faith so mom was crazy so
uh wow so i i had I had been, you know, reading
and enjoying and having that faith. But it wasn't
until at my ultimate worst where I was sobbing
and I had no idea what I was going to do. And
I was laying there in bed and I heard, I heard
put it on the cross from like, it was a different
thought because I was just. I had one of the
things I was dealing with was the obsessive thoughts.
This is how PTSD and trauma just keeps spinning
and looping and looping. Fix me, fix me, fix
me. So I was dealing with that and all of a sudden
put it on the cross. I stopped for a second.
That's a weird thought. And then it was a firm,
like I said, put it on the cross. And I had to
sit with it. Like, was that me or was it? And
then I heard it again, put it on the cross. And
part of me, and I just kind of had this thought,
okay, I need to vividly picture a cross in my
room. And this burning, the sensation of betrayal
and hurt and pain, I felt it just churning. But
then I looked at this. imaginary cross that i
put there and all of a sudden the the pain just
started coming out like it was just it came out
and it was being put on yeah just i could feel
the sensation of it coming out and um and in
that moment my sobs turned into like convulsing
as like as if i was throwing up it was just like
coming out is crazy and so I'm laying there and
I'm thinking, what the hell is going on? And
finally, the last of it came out. And I laid
there on my back. And then all of a sudden, I
felt this intense presence in the room. It was
scary. I pulled up the covers. And in my mind,
I went, who are you? And the immediate answer
I got was truth. And it was like truth said as
if that's who you are. It was like palpable,
like someone just introduced themselves, truth.
Oh, it's your name. Amazing. But it was the essence,
like the air, even in every corner, it was like
there was this presence. And I was like, what
is going on? And then I felt my heart burn. And
then. I felt flames coming out of my heart as
I'm laying there. And I looked down because it
was such a feeling. And I started putting my
fingers as if you would go through a candle.
I was doing this. I couldn't feel it on my fingertips,
but it was coming out. And then I heard this.
Your better days are coming. And then it all
just kind of like. Faded. And I was there alone
sitting and thinking what had just happened.
And I, I was thinking truth, truth. I am the
way, the truth and the life. I went, Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness. And, and I, I felt healed. I
felt like something had changed in my body. And
it was like a pivot point where hope was now
there. I belonged. And it was amazing. So it's
not to say that I never felt depression or felt
like shit again, but it was, it was a moment
in my life where I can trust, I can believe,
I can believe in a promise that was made to me
that my better years are coming. And this was
long before I was in treatment or, or had taken
time off. And it's funny because I, things got
worse. There is another betrayal and, and I was
just devastated. And I kept thinking, I thought
my better days were coming. But I realize now
looking back that that was the hope and the peace
that I was given to get through the next trial,
the next grief and pain that I had to go through.
I don't know what would have happened if I didn't.
Yeah, it's amazing. It was like right there.
Just so amazing. So praise God for that. Yeah,
so I have a new life because I trusted. Yeah,
it was amazing. This isn't a spiritual thing,
but I ironically, through my son's mother, came
across a guy called Wayne Dyer about 15 years
ago now. And Wayne was kind of like a wisdom
keeper, if you like. found kind of what I would
argue the common denominator of all religions
of ancient wisdom from all over the world, literally
all over the world. And he had such a great way
of bringing it together and talking about kindness
and compassion and empathy and service and grief
and et cetera, et cetera. And sadly, not ironically,
but sadly, he died of leukemia probably 10 -ish
years ago. So just before I started this podcast,
I would love to have got him on. his stuff just
resonated so deeply of which some was from you
know the bible and the torah and ida ching and
all this other you know great wisdom um but it
was the same kind of thing i feel like it literally
was given to me so then i could deal with the
shit that followed because nothing got better
then it got worse and worse and worse and you
know again betrayal of my marriage and being
a single parent and betrayal of my fire department
and all kinds of stuff compounding trauma But
it had already changed the way I thought. So
I can understand completely what you're talking
about, because I felt like I had armor and, you
know, a few weapons around my waist now that
I didn't have before. And I would have been kind
of blindsided had I not been prepared. Having
that epiphany, even though the next day you didn't
wake up and it was a Disney life, there's a lot
of value to that. Having the hope and the strength,
which I would argue I still have to this day.
There's a lot of people that oppose all the things
that we do to try and make our professions better,
which blows my mind that you would oppose things
that are saving lives. But that's the reality,
even locally here. So, yeah, but I mean, I can
relate to that completely. And I think it's an
important lesson for people to hear. If you have
some sort of life event like that and the next
day or week things aren't better, maybe it's
just preparing you for the final act of the fight.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it takes, and in
my case, it took me to go all the way down and
to lose even my own fight to fight for myself.
I had to hit. rock bottom where i was i was done
i was ko'd um and it was at that point that i
i i realized i reached out help me i need help
um and so and there's there were times too when
i'm i'm like yeah like no why like just i would
have these conversations there's been times where
so i live in a home And there's a tenant that
lives in the basement suite that's next to me
here. And I would feel this rage. Here comes
another, you know, I'm not crying this time,
but it's this, the rage of being unfairly treated,
the moral injuries that would come up. And I'm
trying to process them, but I'm like, I need
to like fucking yell. I went over to the window
to see if his vehicle was there, and it wasn't.
And I went, yeah! It came out, and here I am
just trying to do it in private. But yeah, but
even that has to come out, right? And I remember
saying that, like, no, I'm going to keep it in.
And that same voice that said, put it on the
cross, was, I can handle it. give it to me and
and i was like well no like if you know the story
of jesus that he doesn't deserve any more suffering
right so there's no give it to me and so it came
out you know it was just uncontrolled it was
it was just to let it out but again it was part
of the healing to to trust yourself your body
is tired of holding that weight and that uh the
anger And, uh, and yeah, and that's the other
thing too, with PTSD is I had to, I had to learn
my triggers. Well, one of the worst ones was,
uh, was driving. I'm just so used to like, I
need, I'm in a hurry. I need to get, I need to
get somewhere. And then, um, we get some old
person or some, something in the way. And, and
I'm like, fuck, you know, like, yeah. And then
I'm seeing myself get angry. I'm like, Oh yeah.
I'm glad I'm not working anymore. Cause I, uh,
I would say some mean stuff, right. And getting
shit. And then rather than be on medical leave,
I'd be on disciplinary leave. So yeah, no, it
all, it all worked out well for me, which is
great. So, but yeah, the, the point of, of having
that moment, it's, it's, it comes really when
you are at rock bottom and you need help. to
find that encouragement to get through. And it's
worth it. That's the other thing too, is that
I even heard myself saying, this is not worth
it. I have no care in the world. It's not worth
it. Now it is. If you knew, if you were given
a quick flash of what your next chapter is going
to be, you'd hold on. And the struggle that we
have is actually not having that and trusting
that something will happen. But yeah, I want
to be a testimony to that. Like, what would you
do after policing? I mean, you can't even go
in public and live a normal life. I know. But
music is changing that. My faith is changing
that. And there's a bigger life coming. Absolutely.
Well, speaking of that, one more area before
we kind of go to some closing questions. You
mentioned Van Halen, Death Leopard, Iron Maiden.
Now we find you in the world of country. How
did that shift happen? Good question. Really
good question. Yeah. Um, and I even questioned
that too, when I was, when I first started writing
music and putting it out, I would call it adult
contemporary. It was kind of like a, um, Brian
Adams type of, uh, adult rock, um, easy listening
to some stuff. Um, but I remember playing a song
for a friend of mine. Hey, what do you think
of this one? Because dude, have you gone country
or something? What? He goes, no, that's, that's
a country. He's like, no, it's not. No. Like
what? What are the harmonies in it? I'm like,
yeah, there's harmonies and everything. And what
are your guitar? I didn't believe him. And then
the song got on the Canadian Indie Country Countdown.
The Canadian Indie Country Countdown, which is
like a chart that keeps tabs of anyone that's
not signed to a label, but it shows like the
top. uh, artists. And, and so that song, which
is called signs made it to number 17 on, on this
list of a hundred. I was like, I guess I'm country.
I guess I'm country. Um, and I learned a little
bit more about it and there was a time to, um,
I'll get to that in a sec, but there was, um,
I realized that country music, the more I listened
to it, it offers vulnerability. It offers loss.
It offers, and also is safe to sing about God
and faith. I went, yeah, okay. Country really
came into my life when I was working in Alexis
Creek, which is kind of center of BC and to the
west. And I had transferred there and I was still
listening to my, like, music which was cold play
and and um other adult and pop music and stuff
and i i'll never forget just driving these dusty
roads in in a police chevy uh colorado ripping
through like flatlands and it just didn't feel
right and i just listened to the music so i shut
it off it was like weird i tried it again the
next morning okay put my favorite cd in oh no
it doesn't fit i went oh oh no and so It wasn't
until I went to Walmart that was in Williams
Lake. And this is when they had, you know, those
big bins of CDs and people would push through
them and see if there was anything, you know,
one CD for 10 bucks. So here I was like, this
is, oh, Tim McGraw. Yeah. Okay. And I bought
Tim McGraw. I bought Alan Jackson, George Strait,
Keith Urban. And I put these in the truck the
next time I was working. And I laughed out loud.
I rolled down my windows. This fits. This is
it. It's country music. It's weird. It really
was. But as I was listening to this new music
of mine that had been out for years, it was all
new to me. But it spoke a lot about what I was
going through and experiencing and the hardship
and faith. And I was like, wow. Okay. Well, country
it is then. I'm really. it's funny i i there's
a lot of country that it just doesn't resonate
with me but there's some artists have come out
recently and and of course now we're talking
none of their names are staying in my head but
it's it's more of a kind of folk coal miney sound
you know meets country um one of the guys i can
see his face i just literally watched a video
before we even sat down but he did a cover of
stand by me that was amazing he's got a a song
called i'm a song Steven Wilson Jr. Yes. Love
his stuff. Yeah. And there's another guy. His
song is Nose to the Grindstone. Again, he's kind
of got like a West Virginia style twang -ish
thing going on. But I mean, it's just from the
heart. So you've got obviously the kind of, I
guess, what you would call pop country, you know,
the ding, ding, ding. I got my dog and my car
and my guns. But then you've got the stuff that
resonates with me, which is that. reach into
my chest and pull my heart out kind of music
that i like so it's interesting now how that
what would seem to be a lot more rigid barriers
now you've got hip -hop and country artists doing
stuff together and you know i like that even
back in the year that you're talking about there
were um i forget the film now but there was a
fusion of um all the big metal bands with Public
Enemy, and there was this kind of cross -pollination
then too. But it's really interesting, this morphing
of country now where there's this one side that,
like you said, is very vulnerable and very raw,
and that's actually pulling me into the country
a little bit. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you're
right about the delivery. uh, even, even a lot
of kids that I'm seeing my daughter and, and,
uh, especially she's listening to country and
she just, she says, I don't know. It's just,
it's, it sounds better. Um, but when I listened
to it, yeah, it, there's a lot more heart and,
and vulnerability that, that people like, Oh
yeah, I can relate to that. That's, that's my
song or I'm going through this and that's my
song. And, um, you mentioned, uh, Stephen Wilson
jr. I, And that was why I took one listen to
that, to that man. I came into a friend's house
and I'm a song was playing. And I was like, Hey,
hello. How's it go? What is this? Oh, have you
heard, not heard? No, it's amazing. So I had
to listen to it again. And that's one of the
songs I actually cover when I'm performing live.
Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's just like,
Oh, it hits me. It's like, if, if I wish I wrote
that song, damn it. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's
a beautiful song and just, yeah, evokes and you
gotta be, yeah, you gotta be at that, uh, that
point in your life too, where you're okay to
feel it. And, uh, and some people aren't and,
you know, and that's, that's okay. It's, it's,
it's a time in your life when you're, when you're
prepared to, to deal with stuff. So yeah, music
is great. Yeah. That's why I, yeah, it's been
my whole life now, which is great. When it came
out, I literally was bracing myself for my son
to go away for college. Now, it turned out that
on paper, it just made much more sense for him
to do the first two years in community college
and then go. So that didn't happen in the end.
But he's talking about that song being his father's
favorite song. And I can see exactly why it was
his father's favorite song, because even though
he's singing about in theory on the first layer,
well, this is music in my life. You were there
when I, you know, my first girlfriend, I first
got high, et cetera. really be seeing as well
is that it's a parent a mother or father whatever
it is maybe an older sibling that was there in
the place whatever that thing is that you were
there in all these steps of of this child's life
and why i think it makes even more of an impact
with me having fought so hard to try and get
our first responders healthy work weeks and to
be able to go home when they're supposed to go
home to their families is how many people missed
those moments because they got forced to work
extra shifts and all those things. So it just,
I mean, I've sobbed to that freaking song so
many times. I'm not going to lie. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Wow. But how amazing that is to be able to address
the weight, whether it be guilt or sadness that
you've missed. Even that's got to be processed,
right? And it's not fun, but... No, it's life
is so much more enjoyable and easier when you
are not carrying yesterday's issues into today
and next day. There's there's there's trouble
enough for today and tomorrow. Yeah, but it's
it's beautiful. And then that's that's a perfect
example as to why I I'm doing what I love. And
it's amazing. Yeah, to be able to write songs
and evoke meaning because I just I can't help
but pour my guts into it. Absolutely. 100%. All
right. Well, I want to go to some closing questions
before I let you go. The first one I love to
ask, is there a book or are there books that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
discussion today or completely unrelated. Oh,
a book. When's the last time I read a book? Well,
one of the first ones that comes to mind, I'm
glad I found the audio book, but it's called
Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey. And his stories
and his childhood and the things that he went
through, it's all there. He just gives it up
and he's sharing these experiences. But he puts
it in a way where... It's about life and progressing
through it and seeing the green lights where
it's like, okay, stop. This is a red light. I
can't, I can't, I can't deal with this. And then
he would find the solution or something about
that situation. And they're, they're incredible
stories. But then he would end the chapter. He
goes, yeah, well, I found this out and green
light. And then we go to the next chapter. I'm
like, that's brilliant. That's so brilliant because
he's so honest with what he went through. And
I was, yeah, I was obsessed. I would even read
the book now because I, and it's Matthew himself
that's actually narrating his own book. So it's,
you get his demeanor and the true authenticity
of his feelings and the moment. It's just, yeah.
So that one I recommend. And it's kind of both.
It's extremely entertaining, but it's, yeah,
it's another. story of another man that uh in
person that uh went through some shit like wow
and he's here and he's successful brilliant i
know that's in my audible library still i just
haven't had a chance i used to do these long
long drives to see my my wife when she was down
in medical school but i now i work from home
so i barely ever listen to her anymore but i
need right yeah all right what about tv documentaries
or films okay You mentioned The Wire. That was
one of my favorite series. I still have yet to
finish it. I really loved when Stranger Things
came out. I couldn't believe how nostalgic that
was because it's modern day living in our past.
Exactly. I would pause it. No way. I would see
the poster that I had in my bedroom or I would
see the toy that they had. And I was like, no
way. So that was one of my favorites. I just,
I stopped watching it a few years ago, but then
I started the whole thing out because they were
finalizing the series. So that one I loved. Movies.
Okay. Here's one. It's called The Shack. And
it stars, I forget his name, but the main actor
in it is the same lead guy in Avatar. Okay. Australian
guy, I think. Yeah. Who else is in it? There's
a few others. And the reason why I love this
movie so much is it deals with forgiveness. And
that was a hard part of my healing. to actually
forgive um i won't get into it too but it the
movie addresses one of the hardest things to
forgive where you would you would want hellfire
to be burning on this person but the story unfolds
in such a beautiful way um that even at that
moment you you need to forgive um so that one
for sure top of the list in terms of emotional
impact. Like I side note, I remember watching
it. Like I would have this, I think it's time
to watch this movie again. Cause I'm, I'm starting
to get bitter. And so I'll watch it. And I made
sure that my kids were not around because I knew
I was going to cry. And so here I am, I'm on
the couch and I'm, my eyes are puffy because
I'm this, the moments that, that it hits like
the, the climax of, of the situation. I hear
the door open and up the stairs comes my daughter.
She's 13 or 14. And I'm on the couch. I'm like,
ah, well, you know, it's okay to see your dad
cry. And so it's not. And she just looks at me
and goes, are you crying? Yeah. And she walks,
she just looked at the screen and walks away.
And she said, well, that's real masculine. see
you later pussy i know i was like what i thought
by showing you it's like even dads can feel stuff
right but oh yeah crazy but yeah the message
in that movie profound i've got to watch it i
don't know if i've even had that recommended
which is amazing 1200 interviews and if i have
it's certainly not often so i'm gonna have to
definitely look that way so thank you yeah Yeah.
Yeah. I'm glad it came to mind because it's been
a while since I've watched it, but yeah, that's
it. Brilliant. All right. Well, the next question,
is there a person you'd recommend to come on
this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? Yeah. It would be Derek Sienko.
He is the. the ceo and um one of the main people
at diversified rehabilitation the reason why
i i think of him is because he not only has his
own trauma but his relationship with first responders
and the police um he's like a shepherd where
he's he's bringing people in um he's so supportive
he's come to a lot of my shows when i'm performing
and but he his kindness and sincerity but also
his wisdom in in everything that he's seen from
the members that come in uh and he's with them
and he's watching them go through this so it
would be um like a yeah getting his perspective
from watching everyone going through stuff and
to, to kind of find out what, what are some of
the common things and what are some of the hardest
things that you've seen members or people fight
through and, and, and heal from. And, and the
advice that he would give in terms of what to
do would be, yeah, it would be very informative.
Beautiful. I appreciate that. All right. Thank
you. So the last question then, before we make
sure where everyone knows where to find you and
the concert, what do you do to decompress? I,
good question. Cause I, I have ADHD so much now
that everything's, I love starting things and
I have finished them and then move on to something.
And then, yeah, by the end of the day, I've got
like more things started than, than finished.
Um, how do I decompress? Well, um, praying, remembering,
um, all of the things that I am grateful for
to be here, the people that have helped me, um,
my faith that was there and the, the yeah, the
help that I received and, and to be grateful.
And that was That too was a challenge because
I thought I had more things to be miserable about.
So part of my morning routine is when I get up,
I pray, I thank God for what I have and for getting
me through and providing an amazing future. There's
too many miracles to count on how you did that,
especially the divorce. that that could have
been and should have been so much more uglier
than it was but there was a grace on it there
was um there was favor uh no matter how unfair
it was it was there so to ground yeah to decompress
just just take 10 minutes and some i've done
this too where i'm like fucking mad like i'm
so mad i can't and i'd start getting into that
but i would stop and i remember uh and i would
think okay okay hang on hang on okay i'm gonna
i'm gonna name i'm gonna name 20 things that
i'm thankful for and the shift that that does
is incredible you start having gratitude and
you start being uh thanking that and so that
that is one of the quickest methods for me to
do and i wish i knew that earlier because i i
would um I would be hit with a wave and a punch
in the gut with anxiety in the mid. I could be
in the grocery store. I would have a cart full
of groceries and pow. And I'm, Oh, and I, I'm,
I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here,
but I stuck up more. No, I don't want to be.
And I've, I've left it. I've just pushed the
cart away, got my truck and drove home and stayed
at home for three days. Like it just like, but
I wish I knew that at the time too, is like,
okay, focus, focus, grateful, grateful, grateful.
Cause it just changes your brain pattern. Like
you got to think of positive. Right. And if you
can name things that you can really be thankful
for, which everyone can. Yeah. Love it. Yeah.
I do a gratitude journal every morning and night.
And actually I did the five minute journal, which
I actually prefer just better laid out and better
quotes and stuff in there. But it's just forces
you, you know, when you first wake up and before
you go to bed, exactly that, you know, what are
you grateful for? You know? What are you going
to do to set yourself up for today? In the evening,
what went well? What were some of your wins?
And I think that's one of the reasons why in
modern day society, especially in Western society,
why a lot of people struggle because we have
it better than any human on the planet since
the beginning of time. But we're pumped full
of commercials and told by politicians that you
don't have enough and the other guy is trying
to take all your stuff and so that you don't
have the capacity to go. I woke up. And there's
food in my fridge and my kids have clothes and
no one's trying to murder us at the moment. Like
there's so many things to be grateful for. But
it's the enemy of mental health is this divisive
rhetoric that's pumped through the screens every
single day from, you know, Fox and CNN and social
media and all these these outlets that want you
to be angry, want you to be afraid. So you buy
even more of this shit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And again, if I didn't have music, I'm sure I'd
be tuned in. I would have my favorite YouTube
channel I'd be following and just getting angry.
And once in a while, I'll give myself like five
or 10 minutes of scrolling, especially if it's
in the bathroom. But I find that when I do this,
I leave and I'm like, I'm agitated. I'm pissed
off. I mean, it's good to be informed because
we need to cast our vote and our belief. But
yeah, got to be careful. It really is. But yeah,
music has kept me focused and away from everything
else. So I have time to heal. Absolutely. So
for people listening then, where can they learn
all about, you know, where to find your music,
the tours, and then anywhere else they can learn
more about you? Yes, I got music on every digital
streaming provider. So that'd be Spotify and
Apple Music. music video up on YouTube as well.
So, uh, just to get a search, Jonathan Williams
or, uh, my handle on Instagram is Jonathan official
music. And, uh, yeah, I'm pretty active on Instagram
because that's kind of where people are following
me and to come to shows. And, um, I'll be releasing
a brand new song March 6th. Uh, and it's, it's
about have it all, which is about grab it. Um,
being grateful and gratitude, uh, about. just
the little things in life and being a millionaire
or feeling like one, because I've got this. So
it's a, it's a really good, um, release for me
because the last few have all been, you know,
a heartbreak or goodbyes and stuff. Right. So,
um, so I'm excited to put this out and it's kind
of like also a change, but, uh, but yeah, yeah.
Please, you know, come listen to the music, uh,
um, send me any feedback, uh, favorite songs.
Um, I plan on doing a tour, uh, the yeah the
end of this year across canada but um i'm already
speaking to another artist and we're we're trying
to figure out a way to get in a motor home and
and just hit the states and just keep coming
we're gonna drive all the way to nashville stay
there and then we'll come drive all the way back
but we'll do shows along the way so yeah in time
in time um i'm also um doing a lot of radio tracking
with some country stations throughout the u .s
um so uh yeah i hope to get on a lot more uh
stations as we go but yeah it's it's you know
keeps me busy that's for sure brilliant well
i want to thank you so much i mean it's been
I always tell people at the end of this, it's
always so fascinating hearing people's life stories.
I mean, everyone, everyone should do, you know,
a podcast, you know, write a book, et cetera,
because all of us have, you know, a powerful
story. But to go from, you know, the love of
music to, you know, policing and then, you know,
the mental health story and then back out the
other side has been amazing to hear. So I want
to thank you so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. My pleasure, James. Thanks. And
it was a pleasure meeting you. And I'm grateful
for what you're doing and getting the word out
there because it really is. It's helped me, too,
just to connect and know that I'm not alone in
this. And we're all going to get through it.