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Welcome to episode 493 of Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering, and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show, Judge Craig Mitchell. Now, Judge Mitchell
has an incredibly powerful story from his early
life through to becoming a teacher in South Central
Los Angeles, his journey into the legal profession,
and then the formation of the Skid Row Running
Club. After seeing the addiction and the homelessness
in his area, he decided to be part of the solution
and be proactive. So this was an incredible conversation.
I also wanted to add that Judge Mitchell has
recently recovered from brain surgery. So the
fact that he sat down and did this podcast, I
am so, so humbled by. And you will be moved by
not only the insight, but just the courage of
this man, how he keeps forging forward. Before
we get to that conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment, go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback and leave a rating. Every five
-star rating truly elevates this podcast, making
it more and more visible, therefore easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 500 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help pay it forward and share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to everyone else who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Judge
Craig Mitchell. Enjoy. Well, Judge Mitchell,
I want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time to come on. Not only have we
been going back and forth for a while now, but
you've obviously been through a gauntlet of medical
challenges as well. So I want to start just by
saying thank you. You're quite welcome. Happy
to be here. So for people listening, where on
planet Earth are we finding you today? You're
finding me sitting in my chambers outside of
my courtroom in downtown Los Angeles. Beautiful.
That's obviously going to factor into the story.
But I like to start at the very beginning. So
tell me where you were born and then tell me
about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings, that kind of thing. Okay.
I was born in the Los Angeles area in Pasadena
back in 1956. In fact, I just turned 65 a couple
of weeks ago. Happy birthday. Thank you. I have
one older sister, and probably the most impactful
event in my life was my mother passing when I
was nine. I only knew her when she was six. She
had scleroderma, and so she was confined to a
wheelchair for almost as long as I can remember.
And she was given six months to live and she
lived six years. And so my mother passed in 1966
and my father immediately remarried. And I have
three brothers and sisters from my father's second
wife, my stepmother. And, you know, not to be
unduly unkind to my stepmother, but. I've always
had a special affinity for the story Cinderella.
It was a less than ideal relationship. In fact,
when I finished high school, I was informed that
I was no longer welcome at home, and I left.
So, I mean, the wonderful thing, though, is I...
have remained always very close to my brothers
and sisters to this day. Beautiful. Well, I mean,
it's so interesting because of the way I always
start at the beginning, especially in people
that have come on that have either been through
a dark path themselves and come out the other
side, whether it's people that are in the mental
health world or your unique perspective. the
the impact of childhood trauma the impact of
those formative years on the path that we lead
so it's uh you know that that doesn't surprise
me that you kind of seen less than ideal circumstances
as a young man that maybe gave you some of the
compassion as you became older yourself i think
that the link is quite clear um i mean certainly
much of what i have done with my life at least
you know to some extent on a conscious level,
certainly on an unconscious level, has tried
to honor my mother's legacy. It has also created
in me a fierce self -reliance. When I was in
college, for a significant period of time, I
lived in my car, and I never considered myself
homeless. Now talking and becoming far more educated
with respect to the homeless population, I guess
I was. And so those experiences have been invaluable
in terms of, as you say, making me more sensitive,
considerate of people in difficult circumstances.
Absolutely. Well, obviously, we're going to talk
about running. What about sports? When you were
in school age, what were you playing? When I
was in school, I wasn't playing anything. I have
worked pretty much a full -time job or multiple
jobs since I was 12 years old. And there was
no time for school sports. Now, what was the
driving force behind that? Was it, again, subconsciously
wanting to be self -reliant because of the family
dynamic? Or was there a different motivation?
insisted that my sister and I work. We had to
turn over our paychecks uncashed to her, and
she would deduct or apply that money towards
what she considered to be our portion of the
food bill, the phone bill, etc. At 12 years old.
Yes. Interesting. I've got a 13 -year -old. He's
playing Lego in the other room at the moment.
I think he's under the same regime that you're
talking about. But the good thing was, you know,
being able to work, it got me out of the house.
So it wasn't a bad trade -off. Sure, you can
have my money, you know, but at least, you know,
for 10 hours a day, you know, I'm not answering
to your beck and call. Now, obviously, the route
to law school, you know, is very academic. Did
having to work affect your schoolwork at all?
Not terribly, no. When I went to UCLA, again,
there was no parental support. And for some reason,
I got it in my head that I didn't really want
to become indebted in that process. So I worked
35 to 40 hours a week throughout my undergraduate
program. And what kind of work were you doing
while studying? I was mopping floors in the dorms.
I was a security guard for a while. I guess my
longest job, I dispatched limousines to the movie
industry for a couple of years. Now, you obviously
went on that path quite early. When did you decide
that the law field was the one you were going
to pursue, and were there any kind of career
aspirations prior to that? I had always grown
up in a home where, around the dinner table,
we discussed politics. I can remember my mother
and father in 1960 working on John Kennedy's
campaign. And so I had an early interest in politics.
I was an avid reader. That subject matter was
what I read a lot about. And, you know, you read
enough about politics and you fantasize about
perhaps someday entering that arena. Most people
have law degrees. And so that's probably what
planted the seed in my head. Interesting. So
with that journey, first, can you tell me what
a high school graduate has to go through to enter
that field? Well, you certainly have to finish
your undergraduate degree. So you have four years
of college. I mean, most people who go to law
school end up going to law school shortly after
finishing their undergraduate program. That was
not my path. tired of living in my car. I wanted
a job. I wanted, you know, a humble apartment
at least. And so my last year at UCLA, I picked
up a teaching credential. And, you know, thanks
be to God, I ended up teaching in South Central
Los Angeles. I thought I was going to do that
just for a couple of years and then go off to
law school. But I enjoyed teaching so much that
I stayed for 17 years. That's amazing. So again,
so there you are, you know, obviously South Central
is known to be, you know, not only of a certain
demographic, but also historically, at least
through the media, to be known as quite a violent
place as well. So what was that experience like
for you as a, you know, a young white man on
the legal path? It was an education. I mean,
you know, but it also. I developed so many friendships,
meaningful relationships with my students, with
some of the people on the faculty. And, you know,
there's one thing to teach kids that have a lot
of advantages in life. It's another thing to
teach. a person who may be coming from a single
-parent family who might have parents who never
pursued higher education, to be able to equip
a young person with the skills necessary to succeed
in college and really reach a professional level
that is new to their family, that was extremely
meaningful to me. And it's what kept me coming
back. Every summer, I used to put 10 of my students
in the back of a van and drive them across country
to Washington, D .C. for a month, month and a
half, just to expose them to the nation's capital,
to encourage them to consider careers in public
service. But, you know, you spend that type of
time with young people. You know, I've never
been so poor in my life, but it was probably
some of the most meaningful, happy years that
I have ever spent. I can imagine. Now, I had
a guest, Pasi Saalberg, who is from Finland originally,
and he talks around the world about their system.
Given the best tools, whether it's at home or
financially, they actually put more funding and
support into those schools to bring everyone
up to the same point. What are some of the things,
because you've got such a unique perspective,
that we do right in our schools here? And what
are some of the ways you think we could improve
to give the... I mean, the men and women in the
areas that we've all seen, I've seen as a firefighter
and a paramedic, where the opportunities may
not be there, you know, in the neighborhood that
they actually live in. Well, first off, you know,
teaching can't be a job. It should be a vocation.
I mean, the first 10 years I spent at Sarah High
School, which was a Catholic all boys school,
and our student population. We had 500 students
at the school. 499 were African American. One
was Latino. The demographic was, you know, what
it was. Initially, the students didn't know what
to do with me, you know, because I was very demanding.
I taught primarily American literature. They
had to read 30 to 40 pages a night. They had
to compose and typewrite an essay every week
and hand in. But what was wonderful about that
is that after the rigors of our program, okay,
and I was one teacher and I was probably at one
end of the spectrum, but we had a couple of other
very good teachers. And the universities began
to see that the students that we sent, to Stanford,
to Berkeley, to Yale. They stayed and they graduated
to the point where these schools would call me
springtime and say, you know, Craig, we need
to increase our African -American enrollment.
What students would you be willing to send us?
We don't care what their grades are. We don't
care what their SAT scores are. If you vouch
for them, we will accept them. And those students
went on to succeed. And so what I, you know,
what so troubles me about so much of what constitutes
quote unquote education is the lack of rigor.
You know, let's have people do word searches.
You know, let's show endless movies. I've been
in the system where I knew that the teachers
on either side of my classroom, there was no
meaningful education going on. It was babysitting.
I had one teacher that I knew well. He used to
put his assignment on the board, turn the page
so -and -so in the book, read the chapter, answer
the questions at the end of the chapter. He was
so proud that he said he ran his classroom where
he never had to open his mouth. And so my experience
is that if you challenge students with a rigorous
program, make it very clear that you deeply care
about them. Because students are quite clever.
They know if they're being provided an instructional
program that is to their benefit. And if it is
to their benefit, they're going to focus and
do what you ask of them. See, that's such an
amazing perspective because it parallels the
fire service. I've talked about this a lot. And
let's take law enforcement, for example. When
we lower the bar for quote -unquote diversity,
and I'll be more specific in a second on how
we actually do that, you don't get as good a
candidate because it's not a challenge for the
individual. And conversely, what I found is if
you provide mentorship in the communities that
are underserved, you find the best candidates
that become great police officers, firefighters,
whatever it is. But you have to, again, like
you said, set a bar high and get them to reach
it. And it's beautiful to hear what you said
as well. We have the same thing. There was a
guy in my last fire department who prided himself
in basically just putting his gear on the fire
engine every shift. That was it. And he was almost
revered in this department. So I couldn't agree
more. I think that we completely misunderstand
the idea of chasing a dream and setting that
bar high and finding the best people. If Harvard
or Yale came to Corsham in England where I grew
up and they were looking for the best lawyers,
I wouldn't be on that list. I was obviously meant
to do something different. So it's not about
scooping up a bunch of white English people because
they're underserved and throwing them all into
a system or a fire service or whatever. It's
about penetrating that community, inspiring that
community in whatever field you're looking for,
finding the best people. And that's exactly what
you did with the school kids. Absolutely. I agree.
Sarah High School, where I spent 10 years, I
mean, we spent a fraction on each student relative
to what the public schools were spending. But
the end product was far superior. And anyways,
that's... No, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so
glad that we got into that conversation. The
thing that I was going to add... You know, when
I talk about teaching being not a job but a vocation,
I would get to school probably 6 .30 in the morning.
On a good day, I would leave at 10 .30 at night.
You know, I did student council, yearbook, the
retreat program. On the weekends, we would take
50 students for three days on retreats. We did
this over and over again every month. And when
students see the level of commitment that you're
bringing to the table, it is going to make a
profound difference in terms of how they respond
to the educational program. If you're just a
teacher who shows up, you know, 10 minutes before
the tardy bell, you run out to the faculty parking
lot as soon as the last bell rings, forget it.
Yep. Absolutely. And again, within the fire service,
a lot of our motivated men and women and law
enforcement, I'm sure as well, it's almost sad
in a way because we have to do it on days off.
They'll take vacation days and go and do advanced
fire classes, rope rescue and pediatric trauma
classes and all these things to make themselves
better. And I think that's it. When you walk
the walk, whether it's a probationary firefighter
or whether it's a student at a school, I think
you don't even have to say any words. Just purely
by watching you do the work, by osmosis, that
inspires them. And that's one of the, as you
say, you know, with the running club, to sort
of fast forward to what I'm doing now, you know,
words don't mean a heck of a lot. Me getting
up at 2 .30 in the morning, three days a week
to be down on Skid Row, I don't have to say anything.
Okay? They know my level of commitment. Well,
you mentioned the running club. So you have an
interesting story of how you did start running.
So I'd love to hear that, if that was okay. Sure.
I started running just a little bit before I
turned 40. At that point, I was a relatively
newly minted prosecutor, not long out of law
school. And I had a supervisor who asked if I
would participate in the Baker to Vegas law enforcement
run. And that's from Baker, California to Las
Vegas. It's a 20 person team. You all run given
legs. And I had never run before in my life.
I wasn't really particularly fond of running.
But I also understood that it wouldn't help my
career if I said no to the man. So I said, sure,
I'll give it a try. And bought myself a pair
of running shoes at Payless Shoe Store and immediately
got shin splints because the shoes were so crummy.
But, you know, I met some people in that experience
that I continued to run with at work. And, you
know, it took off from there. Now, with your
journey into the legal profession, What was your
initial impression? Because as we move on, you
end up doing something very proactive with the
running club. What was your impression of maybe
seeing the same faces or any sort of sense of
futility of some of the laws that were out there?
I mean, I'm not trying to load the question,
but what were some of the first impressions that
you got? I mean, I chose to be a prosecutor because...
As a high school teacher, many of my students
were the victim of violent crime. I went to too
many funerals of my students who were caught
in gang crossfire. And I saw the pain that their
families experienced, that the larger community
experienced. And so I wanted to go to bat for
the victims of crime. I mean, that's what brought
me to the prosecutor's office. Interestingly
enough, the prosecutor's office had a hiring
freeze when I got out of law school, so I initially
did defense work. And so I have a background
that encompasses seeing both sides of the equation.
And many of the people that I represented when
I was doing defense work, you know, there are
certain people who They were good for the crimes
that they were charged with. And my job as a
defense attorney was not necessarily to try and
get a not guilty verdict because sometimes the
evidence is overwhelming. But my job was to,
you know, you have somebody who's 18, 22 years
of age. How can we impose a sanction on this
person that is fair, that allows them to pay
a certain price, but then get on with their life?
On the other hand, and there are, you know, people
who are, you know, pose a real danger to the
community. And that's what ultimately propelled
me into the prosecutor's office. Right. Well,
with, I mean, that's something I didn't even
touch on. With you being in South Central, with
the violence, I know the Crips and the Bloods
obviously was a notorious conflict. One of the
schools I taught at was largely a rolling 60s.
That was one of the major crip gangs in Los Angeles,
extremely violent. I'd listen to my students
come in on Monday morning and talk about who
they shot that weekend. Now, when you reverse
engineer that, what do you see as root causes?
Because, I mean, you know, whether it's Catholics
and Protestants in Northern Ireland, whether
it's Palestine and Israel, whether it's Crips
and Bloods, To me, there's always kind of like
a starting point that, you know, that if we go
far enough back, that's the root cause that we
need to address. You know, so many times you
have to look at the homes that they came out
of where perhaps their parents, grandparents,
uncles, etc. have had extremely limited opportunities.
And so the role models of sitting down and opening
a school book and writing essays and doing what
you need to do to succeed on a traditional path
is something they've never experienced. The people
in their neighborhoods who get respect are the
ones who may be involved in criminal activity.
You have way too many young people growing up
in very fractured homes with the crack. epidemic
in Los Angeles in the 1970s and 80s. You've had
what were previously functioning families that
were just totally destroyed. And so you have
parents who are not meeting their most basic
responsibilities to their children. And you have
young people who are adrift. And so they're going
to, I mean, one individual that comes to mind,
his mother was a prostitute, his brother was
in prison. He joined a gang. Surprise, surprise.
Okay. It was the only organization in his community
that, you know, gave him a sense of belonging,
you know, some protection. Having said that,
students at Sarah High School who academically
put their nose to the grindstone. They grew up
in neighborhoods that were full of gangs. But
there's an interesting code, you know, when lawyers
would come to me, you know, and say, well, you
know, my client did this. He had no choice. He
had to join a gang. I don't buy that. My experience.
with some very violent gangs in Los Angeles,
they knew the students who wanted to take a different
path. They were the brainiacs. And they were,
interestingly enough, proud of these individuals.
Don't mess with so -and -so. He's going places.
Okay? And so you could live in a neighborhood
that was gang infested, so to speak. But if you
were academically inclined, you normally were
allowed to go fairly unscathed. It's so interesting
because there's such a yearn. yearning to be
in a tribe and you know obviously the fire service
you know we have a tribe in our fire station
when we transition out a lot of our men and women
struggle because they've lost that tribe again
but you know that's goes back to that mentorship
you know if your tribe your obvious tribe is
the crips the bloods the ms -13 members whoever
it is then you're gonna you know there's that
kind of almost like um primeval draw towards
that. But if there is a club, an academic, a
football team, then that could be a positive
mentorship. How many single mothers did I talk
to in the course of my career as a teacher who
said, I took my kids to Pop Warner. I took them
to the Y. I took them to the Boys and Girls Club.
I made sure they were occupied 24 -7. And that's
why They are successful in school right now.
But if you have absentee parenting figures, okay,
the outcome is far more perilous. Absolutely.
Now, I want your perspective on something, and
I don't want to, again, load it, but I'll give
you kind of my background of my perspective.
Being a firefighter paramedic and then prior
to that being a lifeguard, so for most of my
life, we get to see – We're really behind the
curtain, behind the facade. We get to see what
works, what doesn't work, the violence, you know,
all this kind of thing. And a few years ago,
after I started this podcast, my mom, my brother
had moved to Portugal from England. And my mom
said, hey, do you know that they decriminalized
addiction here? I said, no, I had no idea. And
so I ended up going on one of my visits back
to see them. I went to Lisbon and sat down with
the man, Zhao Gulau, who spearheaded that decriminalization
in that country. And they took addicts and rather
than send them through the legal system, they
sent them through the medical system. They got
psychological counseling, addiction counseling,
job creation, all these great proactive measures.
And then through that lens, I started looking
at all the things that I see as a firefighter,
the gang violence, all the 16 -year -olds have
pulled yellow sheets over and the overdoses and
all these things. And it made me realize that
that particular prohibition has created so much
death and destruction and violence and problems.
And you compare, for example, the streets of
South Central to the streets of Oslo. they're
all humans what are we doing differently so without
loading the question myself i am a huge fan of
the removal of prohibition not of selling not
of not of smuggling but of addiction um what
is your stance on that having seen what you've
seen the last few decades well i have a question
in response to what you observed in portugal
and elsewhere um how do those countries get people
to get into programs that address their mental
health and addiction circumstances. So it was
very interesting because, I mean, that's a great
question. I wondered the same. So many people
who are addicts don't ask for help because of
the fear of being arrested. So what they found
is once they did that, so say if you were detained
with, you know, possession. You weren't even
arrested. You went and literally had an interview
and you were educated on the resources. You didn't
even have to go. They planted that seed into
your head. They took, you know, obviously there's
some addicts that will never come off. They put
them in safe injection sites. You know, they
had, you know, the needle services and all that.
But if you were, for example, a fentanyl addict,
then you went to a clinic, you took your fentanyl,
which was the actual dose. You're not going to
OD. And then you went about your day. But majority
of people were just suppressing trauma. So once
they actually were on that road and they were
able to really address why they're an addict
in the first place. They saw an incredible success.
And then a lot of those funds that they were
using to fight the war on drugs now went into
law enforcement. The courts were cleared because
of all the, you know, the almost elimination
of drug related cases. So, you know, in that
lens, I mean, it was it was amazing to hear.
But yet it was basically removing the stigma
so that these men and women could actually ask
for help. The United States is moving in that
direction. OK, in Los Angeles, in California
specifically, possession is a misdemeanor. Similarly,
you're not going to you may be arrested. They'll
write you up and you're immediately released.
If you are brought to court. There is no meaningful
jail time. And what I have seen, which is difficult
to deal with, is with fentanyl, particularly
with methamphetamine, because that's the drug
of choice in Los Angeles now. You offer a person
who is a regular meth user drug treatment, okay?
Residential, outpatient, whatever it is, okay?
Or you say, you know, we're going to have you
do 90 days in jail. Those are your choices. They
know that 90 days in jail means that they'll
get out tonight. OK, because of the overcrowding,
et cetera, lack of funds, whatever. 90 days mean
you're immediately released. And so you. The
problem that we're confronting is that no one,
I shouldn't say no one, the majority of people
who are addicted to methamphetamine are more
committed to maintaining their access to that
drug than getting into drug treatment. And that's
incredibly problematic. Once somebody says, I
want something more out of my life. Then they'll
end up at one of the missions or one of the treatment
programs. Okay, they'll end up in the running
club. But before they get to that point, and
there are many who have been in the running program
who, you know, they relapse and relapse and relapse
because the lure of methamphetamine and the high
that it gives them, as you say, to cover up trauma
in their own life. is so powerful that they cannot
separate themselves from it. And if someone could
tell me how you could get a person in that circumstance
to choose recovery over continuing addiction,
I am all ears. Yeah, you see, and it's an interesting
concept. And again, I'm not completely well -versed,
but what I've seen is firstly you take, you address,
the large part that you can change. Of course,
you've got, you know, whether it's certain drugs,
whether it's certain groups where they're staying,
but then you bring them into a clinical setting.
So I don't know if you're able to wean them or
while they're in a clinical setting, kind of
get them the counseling at the same time. I'm
not sure, you know, I'm not well -versed enough
on that particular drug just to find out what
they would do. But I mean, I'd need to basically
ask Zhao again, like, what did they do? And get
you a concrete question. But yeah, I mean, but
I think it's just... We used to be able to, we
had what was called DEJ, Deferred Injury of Judgment,
where it was sort of a carrot. You're going to
get arrested for drug possession, but it'll be
completely wiped off of your record if you'll
commit to going to outpatient treatment a couple
times a week. OK, that program just has died.
Because there's no incentive for the drug user
to participate in that program. Yeah. Yeah. No,
I mean, like I said, it's not a black and white,
one and done answer. But I think the philosophy
is incredible. But the question is, you know,
how, again, I mean, you've got such an acute
lens, too. I mean, you know, L .A. is a highly
densely populated city, you know, with a higher
level of violence and maybe addiction as well.
And the methamphetamine and crack, I mean, it's
just flooded into our communities. There's so
much money to be made. OK. And since the sanctions
have been. largely wiped out law enforcement
has essentially removed themselves from trying
to in my opinion stop the flow of those drugs
into our communities yeah well i know one thing
as well that i did see so when that you know,
was put in place in Portugal. I don't know if
maybe meth wasn't one of the ones that was flooding
in that country. But you cut the head off the
snake, supply and demand. So now you're taking
away the power from the pushers and smugglers.
You've got more police resources to focus on
the pusher and the smuggler. And, you know, I
think that was another huge element, you know,
that they saw huge success with was once you
take away the customer, then... There's no money
for the underworld for that particular route.
And I say, no, I mean, it's minimized. But, you
know, to sort of tie this into our discussion
about what I learned when I was a teacher, when
you hit the nail on the head, when you have people
who are coming out of unsupportive, dysfunctional
families who have not been adequately reared
or loved. OK, you are just setting that person
up for addiction. Yeah, absolutely. And I said
that's just it. So turning it back into the running
club path now, I would love to hear about Roderick
Brown and kind of how that was the genesis of,
you know, what not what you've not only done
now, but, you know, an incredible, powerful documentary.
that shows what you guys are doing. Well, I mean,
there's great irony when I talk about Roderick
Brown. Roderick Brown, as you know from the documentary,
was an individual that I sent to state prison,
not for a long period of time, a couple years.
And when he was released from custody, he was
paroled to the midnight mission. And for some
reason, he decided he liked the way I treated
him when he was in my courtroom. He came back
to my courtroom and invited me to come down to
Skid Row to the midnight mission and meet the
people who were involved in his recovery. And
I did that. And when I went down to the mission,
they asked me, is there something I could do
to contribute to the program? And my three children
were either in college or grad school, so I didn't
have a lot of extra money just to write a check.
But I had some time on my hands. And I said,
well, you know, maybe I could start a running
program. The interesting thing about Roderick
Brown is Roderick Brown, and that was 10 years
ago. Roderick Brown to this day remains a captive
to his addiction. Roderick Brown never ran a
single mile with us. Now, his lasting legacy
is that he got me down to Skid Row, and he is
the person responsible for the ultimate genesis
of the Skid Row Running Club. But he has never
been the beneficiary of that program. What do
you think, just staying on him for a moment,
what do you think his own barrier is? Why was
he not able to when so many people were? Roderick
Brown has a real difficult time making prudent
decisions. And whether you can ultimately tie
that to a life from its almost inception of just
being completely chaotic, never being able to
step outside of himself and in an objective sense,
assess what he has been doing wrong. Roderick
Brown is a very complex human being, so full
of contradictions and conflicts. He's never been
able to escape it. And have you heard his early
life? I mean, are there elements? I mean, Roderick
would come up and spend time in my courtroom,
come back into chambers. I mean, we spent a lot
of time together. You know, I'm privy to. But
his past. I'm also privy to the fact that, you
know, he is seemingly incapable of any long term
sobriety. Yeah, well, like you said, it's a tragic
irony, but I think that's also a kind of pertinent
point is it seems to me that when there's an
initiative, the naysayers will look at. what
doesn't work. And often that might be a very,
very small part of the puzzle. And the assumption
that we can fix everyone with prohibition of
drugs, with, you know, whatever it is. Which
we can't. No, exactly. So, but, you know, if
we can affect a large amount of people, then
absolutely it's worth it. So talk to me about,
so he inspired you to take that first step. So
tell me about the growth of the running club
and what kind of men and women, you know, the
background of those men and women that were coming
and running with you. The people who form the
bulk of the members of the running club are people
who are in recovery, okay, who at some point
in time hit rock bottom and ended up on skid
row at one of the major missions, Midnight Mission,
Union Rescue, LA Mission, Fred Jordan Mission,
and got involved in, you know, ultimately a 12
-step program. That whole... path toward recovery
and sobriety. And those who were inclined got
involved in the running program, knowing that
that could add some really distinct benefits
in their life. We run three days a week, Monday,
Thursdays, and Saturdays. We travel around the
world once a year to run an international marathon.
You get to participate in the LA Marathon. We
do races, triathlons. We just did a bike ride
from Los Angeles to, or from San Francisco to
Los Angeles. I mean, if you want something to
really augment your recovery program, to strengthen
it, okay, Skid Row Running Club offers you that
opportunity. You know, I'm sure you appreciate
the fact that people in recovery, when they see
other individuals in recovery succeeding and
supporting one another and caring for one another,
that increases the likelihood of their success.
And what also increases the likelihood of their
success? It's the same thing we were talking
about in terms of how do you avoid gang life
if you're a young person in South Central. If
you're playing football, if you're at the boys
club dribbling a basketball down the court, if
you're involved in the Boy Scouts, your time
is occupied. And the Skid Row Running Club, I
mean, we are doing things in the Skid Row Running
Club. Yes, we have our major runs Mondays, Thursdays,
and Saturdays. But one of the things that caused
me some regret about scheduling this interview
with you this morning is it meant that I couldn't
be out at Santa Monica Beach swimming in the
ocean with 10 to 15 members of the Skid Row Running
Club, because that's what we do every Friday.
On Sunday, we're doing the same thing. We have
a woman who is with the Los Angeles Tri Club,
and they're teaching our... members the correct
form to swim. And so you've got, and what are
you doing in the evenings if you're in recovery?
You're going to meetings. When I drive down to
the beach with one of our members, he's got a
meeting playing on his phone. We're not talking
to each other. He's involved in a 12 -step meeting.
So, I mean, it's, you know, if you can occupy
your time with constructive positive experiences,
surrounded by good people, the likelihood of
your long -term sobriety is increased immeasurably.
Yeah. Well, the other thing that just rings out
to me is that they're part of a positive tribe
again. I mean, it must be an incredibly lonely
life being a homeless addict on Skid Row. So
when they become part of the running club, I
mean, it's giving them a reason. you know, something
to shoot for every day, a reason to actually,
you know, not only be part of that team, but
I mean, you're traveling around the world, you're
inspiring other people, you become a beacon of
hope for other people, as you mentioned. No.
You know, the methodology, you know, is not terribly
complex. One of the things I hate the most is
when, you know, we're talking about things like
this and someone says, oh, yeah, but it's complicated,
which is the best sentence to discount any work.
That is needed to actually affect change. So,
yeah, I mean, it's it's I find that most of the,
as I said, root causes to address them fundamentally
are very simple. It just takes courage and, you
know, applying funds in the right direction rather
than, you know, reactively wasting them. Larry
Adamson, who was the president of the Midnight
Mission when I went down there 10 years ago,
he said, you know, Craig, we're in the self -esteem
business. That's what recovery is about. rebuilding
a person's self -esteem. And that is not a complex
proposition. You know, I have no great talents
or gifts in this area, apart from the fact that
I am willing to spend the time. Okay. And, you
know, don't utter the words, oh, I love you.
I care. Forget all that crap. Okay. Be with the
other person. Drive the person to wherever the
event is occurring. Those are the things that
matter. Beautiful. Well, you mentioned Roderick.
Again, I hope that the seed is still sown and
one day he'll finally be able to find the strength.
Like I said, I'm sending hope. But talk to me
about some of the success stories, some of the
men and women that really have found their way
out of that darkness. The individuals in the
movie. Rebecca. who was a heroin addict for years,
involved in a lot to support that habit. I just
got an email yesterday afternoon. She is celebrating
her 10th year of sobriety. She is a surgical
tech. She is married. She's a good mother. Her
and her husband just bought a home up in Seattle.
Tremendous success story. Ben Shirley, who was
the musician in the movie. He and his wife just
bought a home in Ohio. He continues to compose
for the movie industry, and that's how he sustains
himself. He also is 10 years sober. People who
are currently newer members of the club, I won't
mention names, but we have one of our individuals
who... is now working for the Department of Mental
Health as a outreach worker in the community.
He was just offered a job by a medical office
in downtown to do outreach to the homeless population
that that medical office is serving, double his
present salary. Okay, he's been clean and sober
for four years. He is a sponsor to some of our
new runners. Another individual who joined us
about three years ago. He's now a counselor at
a home for troubled young people. He can definitely
identify. He was raised in a house of prostitution.
He came home from junior high school one day.
The house was on fire. His mother died. The authorities
tried to pick him up and put him in foster care.
This particular individual has been on his own
since about 14 years of age. He ran from the
Department of Children and Family Services. What
is he doing now? He's in a stable relationship.
He has been sober for probably four years as
well. full -time employed has his own apartment
i mean i could go on i could just pick this person
this person this person and you know there's
incredible success beautiful well that proves
my point i mean you have this giant list and
obviously you know there are some i didn't work
for but that's like you said that's what it might
be a different thing that changes them it might
never change them and sadly that would be someone
that we lose but look at all the names look at
all the stories i mean i've got almost 500 people
on this podcast now 500 episodes and some of
the incredible stories just just most recently
i interviewed colin broderick who's a incredibly
respected author and filmmaker now and he was
deep in you know alcoholism he was homeless and
just I think he was like 40 years old, managed
to pull himself out and started writing. And
again, the right people, the right environment
created that perfect, positive storm to get him
out. But with that, without that right environment,
whether it's people like yourself creating opportunities
for tribalism and community and healing, then
we're not going to fix the problem. So that's
what's so powerful to me. It is. And the larger
community, I want everybody to understand, you
know, Craig Mitchell is one piece of the puzzle.
We have gotten the exposure to the larger community
where we have now a higher up in UPS. We have
one of our board members is high up in L .A.
tourism. people who have the resources to say,
okay, you know, I've run with you for the last
eight weeks. You really seem to have something
going for you. I like your personality. I like
your dedication. You get along well with other
people. We have a positioning opening up in about
a month. I'd like you to apply for it. And I
can point to the number of people in our running
program who have secured jobs. by those type
of connections. That's incredible. Now, with
a checkered past and maybe some legal elements
hanging over someone's head as far as criminal
record, how do some of these men and women overcome
that when it comes to gaining employment? Let
me just use the example of one of the people
featured in the documentary, Rafael Cabrera.
And Rafael Cabrera was convicted of first -degree
murder. Rafael Cabrera is now working for the
Department of Water and Power, making over $50
an hour. Okay? So when people come into my court
and say, oh, Judge Mitchell, I can't get a job.
I've got a felony on my record. I ain't buying
it. Okay? We have organizations, be it the Anti
-Recidivism Coalition, be it Chrysalis in downtown
Los Angeles. There's a whole host. of organizations
that know the employers that are willing to risk
hiring someone with a criminal record. And if
you can end up making $50 an hour with the Department
of Water and Power and having been convicted
of first degree murder, if you're resourceful,
it's not going to be an impediment. Yeah. Well,
that's so good to hear again. I mean, I've had
people on here that went into the military and
had to get legal help to... to get their records
expunged or whatever the solution was. And then,
like I said, in Portugal, there's actually incentives
to employers to hire recovering addicts. So again,
proactive versus reactive. So that's beautiful
to hear. Now, are you going to get a job as a
police officer? No. So don't spin your wheel.
But there are a lot of opportunities out there.
Absolutely. Well, one more area before we shift
to some closing questions so I can let you go.
I'm just curious because you have such an extreme
lens with you running literally on Skid Row.
What have you seen, not the obvious pandemic
itself, the virus, the illnesses and everything,
but more the unseen ripple effect of this last
18 months on addiction, on homelessness, on some
of the things that you get to see with your own
eyes on the streets? I mean, interestingly enough,
and we have for all but about two and a half
to three months, we have continued running on
Skid Row three times a week. At the very beginning,
we followed the public health advisories and
suspended it for a brief period of time. But
the number of tents, the drug dealers on bicycles.
the overdoses, it really hasn't been impacted
tremendously by the pandemic, from my point of
view. The public health officials were terribly
concerned that COVID would decimate the homeless
population in Los Angeles. Given the proximity
that they live to one another, their lack of
access to good health care, their compromised
immune system because of long -term drug abuse,
it hasn't happened. There's a slightly higher
COVID infection rate amongst the homeless population,
but only marginal. See, again, this is why I
love these conversations. You get to hear it
from... And it's not trying to push a pro or
anti or any sort of agenda. It's just I love
it when I hear from the doctors and the nurses.
One of my doctor friends that's been on a couple
of times right now, he's got another influx just
outside Austin, Texas, where they are there.
His particular ER is full of a lot of COVID cases
again. But overall, what is the impact in the
rural setting versus L .A.? And to hear that.
that perspective of, yeah, I mean, you would
think a very, very fragile population, that's
very interesting. And again, I think, I hope
that serves as optimism for people, because we've
been told a lot of doom and gloom, and it's got
a lot of people very scared, which I think is
terrible for the immune system. But that's something
to be celebrated. If it's not as bad as, you
know, we were hoping, and the fragile population
living on the streets aren't as affected, then
that should be on the news too, I think. So thank
you for sharing that perspective. You know, and,
you know, for the person living in the tent and
addicted to methamphetamine, you know, COVID
is not the front and center of preoccupation
than it would be for like you and I. No. And
that's my point is what breaks my heart is what
a great opportunity for us to have had a discussion
on obesity, on addiction, on all these things
when health is supposed to be front and center.
But that's what I'm seeing is that it's it. That
one thing has all the discussion and, you know,
such a wasted opportunity to address some underlying
things because when COVID's come and gone, addiction
and obesity are still going to be there and we're
still going to be losing people. Yes. Well, again,
I thank you for your perspective on that. So
I want to shift some closing questions so I can
let you get on with your day. And I love the
fact that you're in your running stuff because
I read on one of the interviews they did on you
that you have your, you know, your gown over
your running gear. Over my running gear. That's
right. So now I can see that firsthand. The first
question I love to ask, is there a book that
you love to recommend to people? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Apart from running, probably my second most favorite
pastime is to read. I read about a book a week.
And there isn't a favorite book. One book recently,
though, that. I think really helped me understand
the community that I am working in much better
is Coates' The Color of Water. Incredible novel,
but I can't identify a narrative about slavery,
this country that made me appreciate the psychological
savagery of slavery. You know, roots and book
after book after book. You know, you get the
visuals, the slave markets, the lynchings, the
whippings, okay? But this book conveys the incredible
psychological toll. of that institution in a
way that was new and insightful to me. Brilliant.
I'm going to have to get that. Thank you so much.
I've never had that recommended before. It's
very interesting as well when you talk of slavery.
Again, we reverse engineer, and it'll be interesting
to get your perspective with you having read
several books on this. But I went to the Charleston
Museum with my family, the slavery museum, excuse
me, in Charleston. Again, I think that's a must
visit for anyone that lives in this country.
But it was interesting because, you know, my
ancestors, some of the British slave traders
were the ones that were actually going there
and bringing the slaves over. And then we were
basically trading for goods in America so that
we came back. Well, they, not say we, they came
back with their hands clean. But it kind of made
me realize that, you know, at that time when
slavery was right, Britain was actually going
through, you know, a huge time of poverty. When
we look at slavery, we think of like, you know,
all Americans, we're all British. And actually,
you know, most of them, John the blacksmith in
rural Somerset had no idea that slave trading
was going on. So what, again, when you reverse
engineer, to me, so many times these issues come
from greed and power from the few. With all the
books that you've read on that, you know, what
was that element? Like who, how many people were
truly benefiting from slavery here in the US?
It's hard to identify those who did not benefit.
I mean, our whole economy benefited from having
an enslaved workforce that you didn't pay. The
northern mills in Massachusetts, New York, and
Connecticut, etc., were weaving cloth out of
the cotton that was being grown in the South.
You know, why is the United States the economic
powerhouse that it is today? You've got to go
back to slavery. And, I mean, yes, there were
a tremendous number of individuals who were not
slaves, largely the white population who were
struggling, you know, to open up the West, farmers,
you know, just scraping to get by. But the dollars
that really contributed to the Gilded Age industrialization
in this country wouldn't have happened without
slavery. Yeah. Yeah, this is so interesting.
I mean, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly,
it still had that ripple effect. It did. It did.
Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you for that perspective.
I'm definitely going to get the book. Well, before
we get to a documentary or film that you recommend,
let's talk about your film for a moment. So Skid
Row Marathon is the name of the documentary.
So where can people find that? It is on Amazon.
Okay. And my understanding is it is completely
free of charge. Brilliant. Yeah, I think it was
on Prime when I watched it. Okay. Next question.
Is there a person you'd recommend to come on
this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? I would recommend several people
in my running program who I think could offer
a largely ignored perspective. Well, I would
love to have any one of them. So please feel
free to pass on the information. Ben Shirley
is very articulate. Mario Ocampo speaks from
the heart and has an incredible life story and
journey to share. Addiction, incarceration, and
rebirth. Beautiful. Well, that's the thing. I
mean, this is just to basically... bring, whether
it's mental health and physical health solutions
from professionals, whether it's just incredible
life stories. I mean, this is it. This is smashing
through that facade that we sadly see a door
on our screens a lot and get the real human story.
So I would love to get both of them. Thank you.
And both of them would be inclined to do a podcast
with you. Beautiful. Ben would be a little bit
more reluctant. tell them to talk to me but yeah
okay fantastic well thank you all right well
then the the last question before we make sure
people know how to find the running club find
you what do you do to decompress i take a run
i thought you're gonna say that okay i mean oftentimes
when i'm in court you know there'll be some big
legal issue or i have to decide usually it has
to do with sentencing What am I going to do with
somebody? He's been found guilty. He's pled guilty.
OK, do I give him a second chance? Do I send
him to prison? And I said, you know, I can make
a I can make a call right now, counsel, if you
want me to. But if you'll put it over for about
a week, I'll take a good long run and spend some
really quality time thinking about what I think
is best for your client. And invariably, the
lawyer will say, Judge Mitchell, go take your
run. Beautiful. With that, just as a tangent,
you talked about your childhood and obviously
there was some trauma there. Did you find the
element of catharsis yourself once you started
running and really kind of got that runner's
high and really fall in love with running? I
didn't really finally come to terms with my childhood
trauma, if you will. during running. No, I mean,
you know, life has enough trauma on a day -to
-day basis. You know, I raised two sons and a
daughter. I've been married for over 30 years.
You know, I've got plenty on my plate dealing
with issues that are front and center, you know,
2021 without dredging up my childhood past. You
know, why is it my kid underachieving in school?
You know, why is my daughter involved in a relationship
that I don't think is positive? Why is my wife
on my case about this subject when it really
isn't something that I can resolve for her? I
mean, those are the things that get me out on
the street. And, you know, I'm not running with
music. You know, I'm just reflecting. And the
great thing is, you know, by the time I finally
run back up the driveway and go into the house.
You know, things are far more sorted out in my
life. Beautiful. No, I mean, it makes perfect
sense. And I've actually, you know, done that
myself where it's actually been anger. You know,
I've been frustrated and angry. And it's hard
to be angry after you've run for a certain amount
of time, especially, you know, that particular
case. And what was the source of that anger just
doesn't quite seem quite as important at the
end of the long run. Absolutely. You know, your
perspective. Okay, yes, this happened that made
me angry at this brief point in time. Okay, let
me step back. Okay, there's a lot of good things
going on in my life. Absolutely. Beautiful. Well,
if people want to learn more about the club,
if they want to donate, because obviously, as
you mentioned, you do travel around the world
and that obviously takes your funding as well.
Where are the best places for people to do that?
The SASAS is on the web at Skid Row Running Club.
Brilliant. And then you guys are on social media
as well. Yes, which I have never seen. All right.
Well, I know you're on Instagram because that's
how I originally found you. So for people listening.
Well, Judge Mitchell, I just want to say thank
you so much. I mean, to speak to you full stop
is incredible. But having watched the film and
seeing what you've done, aside from your own
personal journey through into the law profession.
It's absolutely incredible and inspiring. And
your perspective is so unique and so valuable.
So thank you so much for being so generous today.
What I want to leave, you know, in light of what
you just said, one of the takeaways that I hope
people get from the movie, you know, I am not
a great runner. OK, I've had people, much better
runners, look at my form and say, oh, my God,
you're doing this wrong. You're doing that wrong.
You know, I don't even think I have an inordinate
amount of wisdom to impart. But you don't need
those things to make a significant difference
in your community. Okay. You simply need to make
a commitment of yourself. And if you're not a
runner, you know, but you like working with senior
citizens, you know, go to the local convalescent
home. Befriend some of the people who are never
visited by their family. You know, you like working
with young people, find your local elementary
school or your local Y and see what kind of reading
program you can volunteer at. You know, if all
of us would say, okay, 20 % of my free time,
I'm going to spend doing something to benefit
the larger community. You know, this country,
this world would be radically different. Okay.
It humors me at times when people, oh, Judge
Mitchell, you know, you're such a wonderful person.
No, I'm not. Okay. I simply made a commitment
of my time and energy, which most of us are able
to do. You know, you asked me what movie I've
seen. Don't ask me what's going on with the Dodgers
or the Lakers or what. is on TV. I'm clueless
because my free time is not spent focusing on
those things. I remember Mike Royko, the columnist
for the Chicago paper. You're familiar with him?
No, sir. Okay. Well, he was a famous columnist
when I was growing up, I believe, for the Chicago
Tribune. And at the end of his life, He lamented
the fact that he had not spent more time with
his wife. And if he had to do it all over again,
he wouldn't have watched as much sports. And
that always stuck with me.