WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.839 This episode is sponsored by 5 .11, a company 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:05.059 that I've used for well over a decade and continue 00:00:05.059 --> 00:00:08.539 to use to this day. And 5 .11 is offering you 00:00:08.539 --> 00:00:10.660 guys, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:00:11.099 --> 00:00:13.759 a discount on every purchase you make with them. 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:16.280 Before we get to that code, I want to highlight 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:18.219 a couple of products that again, I personally 00:00:18.219 --> 00:00:22.120 use today. 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So if you go to 5 .11tactical 00:01:53.189 --> 00:01:56.790 .com and enter the code SHIELD15, S -H -I -E 00:01:56.790 --> 00:02:00.849 -L -D -1 -5, you'll get 15 % off, not just that 00:02:00.849 --> 00:02:02.969 one purchase, but every time you visit their 00:02:02.969 --> 00:02:05.519 store. And if you want to learn more about 5 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:08.039 .11, their mission, their products, then listen 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.159 to episode 338 of the Behind the Shield podcast 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:15.219 with the CEO and founder, Francisco Morales. 00:02:16.139 --> 00:02:19.479 Welcome to episode 493 of Behind the Shield podcast. 00:02:19.659 --> 00:02:21.500 As always, my name is James Geering, and this 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:23.419 week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:26.560 show, Judge Craig Mitchell. Now, Judge Mitchell 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.479 has an incredibly powerful story from his early 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.560 life through to becoming a teacher in South Central 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.419 Los Angeles, his journey into the legal profession, 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.740 and then the formation of the Skid Row Running 00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:41.240 Club. After seeing the addiction and the homelessness 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:44.680 in his area, he decided to be part of the solution 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:47.960 and be proactive. So this was an incredible conversation. 00:02:48.569 --> 00:02:50.409 I also wanted to add that Judge Mitchell has 00:02:50.409 --> 00:02:52.969 recently recovered from brain surgery. So the 00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:55.349 fact that he sat down and did this podcast, I 00:02:55.349 --> 00:02:58.810 am so, so humbled by. And you will be moved by 00:02:58.810 --> 00:03:01.490 not only the insight, but just the courage of 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:03.810 this man, how he keeps forging forward. Before 00:03:03.810 --> 00:03:06.030 we get to that conversation, as I say every week, 00:03:06.069 --> 00:03:08.090 please just take a moment, go to whichever app 00:03:08.090 --> 00:03:10.689 you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, 00:03:10.889 --> 00:03:14.110 leave feedback and leave a rating. Every five 00:03:14.110 --> 00:03:16.710 -star rating truly elevates this podcast, making 00:03:16.710 --> 00:03:19.509 it more and more visible, therefore easier for 00:03:19.509 --> 00:03:22.990 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:03:22.990 --> 00:03:27.069 almost 500 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:03:27.069 --> 00:03:30.330 is that you help pay it forward and share these 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:33.009 incredible men and women's stories so I can get 00:03:33.009 --> 00:03:35.270 them to everyone else who needs to hear them. 00:03:35.629 --> 00:03:39.330 So with that being said, I introduce to you Judge 00:03:39.330 --> 00:04:01.490 Craig Mitchell. Enjoy. Well, Judge Mitchell, 00:04:01.669 --> 00:04:04.150 I want to start by saying thank you so much for 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:06.310 taking the time to come on. Not only have we 00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:07.969 been going back and forth for a while now, but 00:04:07.969 --> 00:04:11.469 you've obviously been through a gauntlet of medical 00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:14.590 challenges as well. So I want to start just by 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:17.209 saying thank you. You're quite welcome. Happy 00:04:17.209 --> 00:04:19.850 to be here. So for people listening, where on 00:04:19.850 --> 00:04:23.110 planet Earth are we finding you today? You're 00:04:23.110 --> 00:04:26.050 finding me sitting in my chambers outside of 00:04:26.050 --> 00:04:28.670 my courtroom in downtown Los Angeles. Beautiful. 00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:30.810 That's obviously going to factor into the story. 00:04:31.069 --> 00:04:33.750 But I like to start at the very beginning. So 00:04:33.750 --> 00:04:35.889 tell me where you were born and then tell me 00:04:35.889 --> 00:04:37.490 about your family dynamic, what your parents 00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:40.050 did, how many siblings, that kind of thing. Okay. 00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:44.750 I was born in the Los Angeles area in Pasadena 00:04:44.750 --> 00:04:49.790 back in 1956. In fact, I just turned 65 a couple 00:04:49.790 --> 00:04:56.660 of weeks ago. Happy birthday. Thank you. I have 00:04:56.660 --> 00:05:05.660 one older sister, and probably the most impactful 00:05:05.660 --> 00:05:08.259 event in my life was my mother passing when I 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:13.980 was nine. I only knew her when she was six. She 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:17.639 had scleroderma, and so she was confined to a 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.500 wheelchair for almost as long as I can remember. 00:05:21.709 --> 00:05:24.269 And she was given six months to live and she 00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:29.790 lived six years. And so my mother passed in 1966 00:05:29.790 --> 00:05:36.470 and my father immediately remarried. And I have 00:05:36.470 --> 00:05:39.389 three brothers and sisters from my father's second 00:05:39.389 --> 00:05:47.610 wife, my stepmother. And, you know, not to be 00:05:47.610 --> 00:05:52.689 unduly unkind to my stepmother, but. I've always 00:05:52.689 --> 00:05:55.750 had a special affinity for the story Cinderella. 00:05:58.209 --> 00:06:03.129 It was a less than ideal relationship. In fact, 00:06:03.129 --> 00:06:06.670 when I finished high school, I was informed that 00:06:06.670 --> 00:06:10.529 I was no longer welcome at home, and I left. 00:06:11.569 --> 00:06:18.069 So, I mean, the wonderful thing, though, is I... 00:06:18.569 --> 00:06:21.189 have remained always very close to my brothers 00:06:21.189 --> 00:06:26.850 and sisters to this day. Beautiful. Well, I mean, 00:06:26.870 --> 00:06:29.350 it's so interesting because of the way I always 00:06:29.350 --> 00:06:32.689 start at the beginning, especially in people 00:06:32.689 --> 00:06:34.769 that have come on that have either been through 00:06:34.769 --> 00:06:38.089 a dark path themselves and come out the other 00:06:38.089 --> 00:06:40.389 side, whether it's people that are in the mental 00:06:40.389 --> 00:06:43.819 health world or your unique perspective. the 00:06:43.819 --> 00:06:46.079 the impact of childhood trauma the impact of 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.740 those formative years on the path that we lead 00:06:48.740 --> 00:06:51.379 so it's uh you know that that doesn't surprise 00:06:51.379 --> 00:06:55.319 me that you kind of seen less than ideal circumstances 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:58.100 as a young man that maybe gave you some of the 00:06:58.100 --> 00:07:02.639 compassion as you became older yourself i think 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.600 that the link is quite clear um i mean certainly 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:10.139 much of what i have done with my life at least 00:07:10.139 --> 00:07:13.819 you know to some extent on a conscious level, 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.399 certainly on an unconscious level, has tried 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:24.379 to honor my mother's legacy. It has also created 00:07:24.379 --> 00:07:30.819 in me a fierce self -reliance. When I was in 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:34.379 college, for a significant period of time, I 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:38.540 lived in my car, and I never considered myself 00:07:38.540 --> 00:07:44.639 homeless. Now talking and becoming far more educated 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.540 with respect to the homeless population, I guess 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:54.060 I was. And so those experiences have been invaluable 00:07:54.060 --> 00:07:58.019 in terms of, as you say, making me more sensitive, 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:00.839 considerate of people in difficult circumstances. 00:08:01.540 --> 00:08:03.759 Absolutely. Well, obviously, we're going to talk 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.040 about running. What about sports? When you were 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:10.160 in school age, what were you playing? When I 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:16.019 was in school, I wasn't playing anything. I have 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:19.500 worked pretty much a full -time job or multiple 00:08:19.500 --> 00:08:24.480 jobs since I was 12 years old. And there was 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.899 no time for school sports. Now, what was the 00:08:27.899 --> 00:08:32.139 driving force behind that? Was it, again, subconsciously 00:08:32.139 --> 00:08:34.179 wanting to be self -reliant because of the family 00:08:34.179 --> 00:08:36.580 dynamic? Or was there a different motivation? 00:08:39.370 --> 00:08:43.269 insisted that my sister and I work. We had to 00:08:43.269 --> 00:08:47.610 turn over our paychecks uncashed to her, and 00:08:47.610 --> 00:08:53.970 she would deduct or apply that money towards 00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:56.750 what she considered to be our portion of the 00:08:56.750 --> 00:09:02.669 food bill, the phone bill, etc. At 12 years old. 00:09:02.870 --> 00:09:05.779 Yes. Interesting. I've got a 13 -year -old. He's 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:07.460 playing Lego in the other room at the moment. 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.240 I think he's under the same regime that you're 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:15.960 talking about. But the good thing was, you know, 00:09:15.980 --> 00:09:18.480 being able to work, it got me out of the house. 00:09:19.379 --> 00:09:21.639 So it wasn't a bad trade -off. Sure, you can 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:24.480 have my money, you know, but at least, you know, 00:09:24.500 --> 00:09:30.360 for 10 hours a day, you know, I'm not answering 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.580 to your beck and call. Now, obviously, the route 00:09:33.580 --> 00:09:36.340 to law school, you know, is very academic. Did 00:09:36.340 --> 00:09:39.139 having to work affect your schoolwork at all? 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:44.899 Not terribly, no. When I went to UCLA, again, 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:49.360 there was no parental support. And for some reason, 00:09:49.419 --> 00:09:51.539 I got it in my head that I didn't really want 00:09:51.539 --> 00:09:55.700 to become indebted in that process. So I worked 00:09:55.700 --> 00:09:59.360 35 to 40 hours a week throughout my undergraduate 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.230 program. And what kind of work were you doing 00:10:02.230 --> 00:10:06.909 while studying? I was mopping floors in the dorms. 00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:12.529 I was a security guard for a while. I guess my 00:10:12.529 --> 00:10:17.049 longest job, I dispatched limousines to the movie 00:10:17.049 --> 00:10:24.690 industry for a couple of years. Now, you obviously 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:28.889 went on that path quite early. When did you decide 00:10:28.889 --> 00:10:31.029 that the law field was the one you were going 00:10:31.029 --> 00:10:34.230 to pursue, and were there any kind of career 00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:39.110 aspirations prior to that? I had always grown 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:42.830 up in a home where, around the dinner table, 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:49.570 we discussed politics. I can remember my mother 00:10:49.570 --> 00:10:52.730 and father in 1960 working on John Kennedy's 00:10:52.730 --> 00:10:58.820 campaign. And so I had an early interest in politics. 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:05.720 I was an avid reader. That subject matter was 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:10.019 what I read a lot about. And, you know, you read 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:13.840 enough about politics and you fantasize about 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:17.539 perhaps someday entering that arena. Most people 00:11:17.539 --> 00:11:20.460 have law degrees. And so that's probably what 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:24.379 planted the seed in my head. Interesting. So 00:11:24.379 --> 00:11:28.740 with that journey, first, can you tell me what 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:32.519 a high school graduate has to go through to enter 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:37.940 that field? Well, you certainly have to finish 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:40.220 your undergraduate degree. So you have four years 00:11:40.220 --> 00:11:42.580 of college. I mean, most people who go to law 00:11:42.580 --> 00:11:45.379 school end up going to law school shortly after 00:11:45.379 --> 00:11:48.960 finishing their undergraduate program. That was 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:56.659 not my path. tired of living in my car. I wanted 00:11:56.659 --> 00:11:59.519 a job. I wanted, you know, a humble apartment 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:03.759 at least. And so my last year at UCLA, I picked 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:08.500 up a teaching credential. And, you know, thanks 00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:10.539 be to God, I ended up teaching in South Central 00:12:10.539 --> 00:12:12.740 Los Angeles. I thought I was going to do that 00:12:12.740 --> 00:12:14.759 just for a couple of years and then go off to 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:20.519 law school. But I enjoyed teaching so much that 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.919 I stayed for 17 years. That's amazing. So again, 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.379 so there you are, you know, obviously South Central 00:12:26.379 --> 00:12:30.600 is known to be, you know, not only of a certain 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.740 demographic, but also historically, at least 00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:36.379 through the media, to be known as quite a violent 00:12:36.379 --> 00:12:38.840 place as well. So what was that experience like 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:42.779 for you as a, you know, a young white man on 00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:48.419 the legal path? It was an education. I mean, 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:57.399 you know, but it also. I developed so many friendships, 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:02.440 meaningful relationships with my students, with 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:10.940 some of the people on the faculty. And, you know, 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:16.340 there's one thing to teach kids that have a lot 00:13:16.340 --> 00:13:20.220 of advantages in life. It's another thing to 00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:23.220 teach. a person who may be coming from a single 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:27.840 -parent family who might have parents who never 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:32.340 pursued higher education, to be able to equip 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:35.759 a young person with the skills necessary to succeed 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:42.539 in college and really reach a professional level 00:13:42.539 --> 00:13:46.100 that is new to their family, that was extremely 00:13:46.100 --> 00:13:50.490 meaningful to me. And it's what kept me coming 00:13:50.490 --> 00:13:55.929 back. Every summer, I used to put 10 of my students 00:13:55.929 --> 00:13:59.230 in the back of a van and drive them across country 00:13:59.230 --> 00:14:03.049 to Washington, D .C. for a month, month and a 00:14:03.049 --> 00:14:06.669 half, just to expose them to the nation's capital, 00:14:06.789 --> 00:14:09.450 to encourage them to consider careers in public 00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:13.110 service. But, you know, you spend that type of 00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:18.440 time with young people. You know, I've never 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:21.500 been so poor in my life, but it was probably 00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:24.620 some of the most meaningful, happy years that 00:14:24.620 --> 00:14:28.039 I have ever spent. I can imagine. Now, I had 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:31.559 a guest, Pasi Saalberg, who is from Finland originally, 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:34.740 and he talks around the world about their system. 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.820 Given the best tools, whether it's at home or 00:14:49.820 --> 00:14:52.860 financially, they actually put more funding and 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:54.960 support into those schools to bring everyone 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.899 up to the same point. What are some of the things, 00:14:57.919 --> 00:14:59.059 because you've got such a unique perspective, 00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:03.320 that we do right in our schools here? And what 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:05.340 are some of the ways you think we could improve 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:09.860 to give the... I mean, the men and women in the 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:12.159 areas that we've all seen, I've seen as a firefighter 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.820 and a paramedic, where the opportunities may 00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:17.360 not be there, you know, in the neighborhood that 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:22.000 they actually live in. Well, first off, you know, 00:15:22.059 --> 00:15:25.659 teaching can't be a job. It should be a vocation. 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.980 I mean, the first 10 years I spent at Sarah High 00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:30.840 School, which was a Catholic all boys school, 00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:36.909 and our student population. We had 500 students 00:15:36.909 --> 00:15:41.509 at the school. 499 were African American. One 00:15:41.509 --> 00:15:47.669 was Latino. The demographic was, you know, what 00:15:47.669 --> 00:15:52.190 it was. Initially, the students didn't know what 00:15:52.190 --> 00:15:55.169 to do with me, you know, because I was very demanding. 00:15:56.529 --> 00:16:00.450 I taught primarily American literature. They 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:04.080 had to read 30 to 40 pages a night. They had 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.580 to compose and typewrite an essay every week 00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:12.580 and hand in. But what was wonderful about that 00:16:12.580 --> 00:16:19.860 is that after the rigors of our program, okay, 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.200 and I was one teacher and I was probably at one 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.940 end of the spectrum, but we had a couple of other 00:16:24.940 --> 00:16:29.059 very good teachers. And the universities began 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:34.200 to see that the students that we sent, to Stanford, 00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:39.460 to Berkeley, to Yale. They stayed and they graduated 00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:46.200 to the point where these schools would call me 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:50.600 springtime and say, you know, Craig, we need 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.679 to increase our African -American enrollment. 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.539 What students would you be willing to send us? 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:00.039 We don't care what their grades are. We don't 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.809 care what their SAT scores are. If you vouch 00:17:03.809 --> 00:17:09.369 for them, we will accept them. And those students 00:17:09.369 --> 00:17:14.390 went on to succeed. And so what I, you know, 00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:19.789 what so troubles me about so much of what constitutes 00:17:19.789 --> 00:17:23.890 quote unquote education is the lack of rigor. 00:17:24.309 --> 00:17:27.109 You know, let's have people do word searches. 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.500 You know, let's show endless movies. I've been 00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:32.279 in the system where I knew that the teachers 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.980 on either side of my classroom, there was no 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:39.180 meaningful education going on. It was babysitting. 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:43.220 I had one teacher that I knew well. He used to 00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:46.819 put his assignment on the board, turn the page 00:17:46.819 --> 00:17:49.039 so -and -so in the book, read the chapter, answer 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:51.160 the questions at the end of the chapter. He was 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.220 so proud that he said he ran his classroom where 00:17:55.220 --> 00:18:01.349 he never had to open his mouth. And so my experience 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:04.829 is that if you challenge students with a rigorous 00:18:04.829 --> 00:18:08.410 program, make it very clear that you deeply care 00:18:08.410 --> 00:18:11.269 about them. Because students are quite clever. 00:18:11.509 --> 00:18:16.009 They know if they're being provided an instructional 00:18:16.009 --> 00:18:19.470 program that is to their benefit. And if it is 00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:22.910 to their benefit, they're going to focus and 00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:25.990 do what you ask of them. See, that's such an 00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:29.710 amazing perspective because it parallels the 00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:31.789 fire service. I've talked about this a lot. And 00:18:31.789 --> 00:18:34.569 let's take law enforcement, for example. When 00:18:34.569 --> 00:18:38.829 we lower the bar for quote -unquote diversity, 00:18:39.250 --> 00:18:41.089 and I'll be more specific in a second on how 00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:45.730 we actually do that, you don't get as good a 00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:47.930 candidate because it's not a challenge for the 00:18:47.930 --> 00:18:52.539 individual. And conversely, what I found is if 00:18:52.539 --> 00:18:55.839 you provide mentorship in the communities that 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.220 are underserved, you find the best candidates 00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:01.680 that become great police officers, firefighters, 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.900 whatever it is. But you have to, again, like 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.839 you said, set a bar high and get them to reach 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.599 it. And it's beautiful to hear what you said 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:14.559 as well. We have the same thing. There was a 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.819 guy in my last fire department who prided himself 00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:19.440 in basically just putting his gear on the fire 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.180 engine every shift. That was it. And he was almost 00:19:23.180 --> 00:19:26.200 revered in this department. So I couldn't agree 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.380 more. I think that we completely misunderstand 00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:34.019 the idea of chasing a dream and setting that 00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:38.220 bar high and finding the best people. If Harvard 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:40.539 or Yale came to Corsham in England where I grew 00:19:40.539 --> 00:19:42.079 up and they were looking for the best lawyers, 00:19:42.730 --> 00:19:45.289 I wouldn't be on that list. I was obviously meant 00:19:45.289 --> 00:19:47.230 to do something different. So it's not about 00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:50.049 scooping up a bunch of white English people because 00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:52.230 they're underserved and throwing them all into 00:19:52.230 --> 00:19:54.130 a system or a fire service or whatever. It's 00:19:54.130 --> 00:19:58.390 about penetrating that community, inspiring that 00:19:58.390 --> 00:20:00.589 community in whatever field you're looking for, 00:20:00.710 --> 00:20:03.190 finding the best people. And that's exactly what 00:20:03.190 --> 00:20:08.750 you did with the school kids. Absolutely. I agree. 00:20:11.509 --> 00:20:14.289 Sarah High School, where I spent 10 years, I 00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:18.569 mean, we spent a fraction on each student relative 00:20:18.569 --> 00:20:23.150 to what the public schools were spending. But 00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:28.089 the end product was far superior. And anyways, 00:20:30.589 --> 00:20:32.990 that's... No, that's amazing. I mean, I'm so 00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:34.869 glad that we got into that conversation. The 00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:38.519 thing that I was going to add... You know, when 00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.700 I talk about teaching being not a job but a vocation, 00:20:41.859 --> 00:20:46.819 I would get to school probably 6 .30 in the morning. 00:20:47.420 --> 00:20:50.299 On a good day, I would leave at 10 .30 at night. 00:20:51.619 --> 00:20:57.240 You know, I did student council, yearbook, the 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:01.039 retreat program. On the weekends, we would take 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.079 50 students for three days on retreats. We did 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.400 this over and over again every month. And when 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:14.660 students see the level of commitment that you're 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:18.779 bringing to the table, it is going to make a 00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.579 profound difference in terms of how they respond 00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:24.599 to the educational program. If you're just a 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.039 teacher who shows up, you know, 10 minutes before 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.000 the tardy bell, you run out to the faculty parking 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.940 lot as soon as the last bell rings, forget it. 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.279 Yep. Absolutely. And again, within the fire service, 00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:40.720 a lot of our motivated men and women and law 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.480 enforcement, I'm sure as well, it's almost sad 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:45.920 in a way because we have to do it on days off. 00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:48.240 They'll take vacation days and go and do advanced 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.039 fire classes, rope rescue and pediatric trauma 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:53.980 classes and all these things to make themselves 00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:56.299 better. And I think that's it. When you walk 00:21:56.299 --> 00:22:00.079 the walk, whether it's a probationary firefighter 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.789 or whether it's a student at a school, I think 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:05.730 you don't even have to say any words. Just purely 00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:08.809 by watching you do the work, by osmosis, that 00:22:08.809 --> 00:22:12.910 inspires them. And that's one of the, as you 00:22:12.910 --> 00:22:16.529 say, you know, with the running club, to sort 00:22:16.529 --> 00:22:19.269 of fast forward to what I'm doing now, you know, 00:22:19.269 --> 00:22:22.670 words don't mean a heck of a lot. Me getting 00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:25.089 up at 2 .30 in the morning, three days a week 00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:29.609 to be down on Skid Row, I don't have to say anything. 00:22:30.710 --> 00:22:35.670 Okay? They know my level of commitment. Well, 00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:38.130 you mentioned the running club. So you have an 00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:40.869 interesting story of how you did start running. 00:22:40.950 --> 00:22:44.250 So I'd love to hear that, if that was okay. Sure. 00:22:44.349 --> 00:22:47.529 I started running just a little bit before I 00:22:47.529 --> 00:22:51.089 turned 40. At that point, I was a relatively 00:22:51.089 --> 00:22:56.150 newly minted prosecutor, not long out of law 00:22:56.150 --> 00:23:00.509 school. And I had a supervisor who asked if I 00:23:00.509 --> 00:23:03.470 would participate in the Baker to Vegas law enforcement 00:23:03.470 --> 00:23:06.769 run. And that's from Baker, California to Las 00:23:06.769 --> 00:23:11.190 Vegas. It's a 20 person team. You all run given 00:23:11.190 --> 00:23:15.589 legs. And I had never run before in my life. 00:23:15.690 --> 00:23:18.230 I wasn't really particularly fond of running. 00:23:19.190 --> 00:23:22.450 But I also understood that it wouldn't help my 00:23:22.450 --> 00:23:25.829 career if I said no to the man. So I said, sure, 00:23:25.910 --> 00:23:29.589 I'll give it a try. And bought myself a pair 00:23:29.589 --> 00:23:32.289 of running shoes at Payless Shoe Store and immediately 00:23:32.289 --> 00:23:35.490 got shin splints because the shoes were so crummy. 00:23:37.670 --> 00:23:42.670 But, you know, I met some people in that experience 00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:47.190 that I continued to run with at work. And, you 00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:51.869 know, it took off from there. Now, with your 00:23:51.869 --> 00:23:57.170 journey into the legal profession, What was your 00:23:57.170 --> 00:24:01.410 initial impression? Because as we move on, you 00:24:01.410 --> 00:24:03.150 end up doing something very proactive with the 00:24:03.150 --> 00:24:06.210 running club. What was your impression of maybe 00:24:06.210 --> 00:24:09.869 seeing the same faces or any sort of sense of 00:24:09.869 --> 00:24:13.130 futility of some of the laws that were out there? 00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:14.809 I mean, I'm not trying to load the question, 00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:16.349 but what were some of the first impressions that 00:24:16.349 --> 00:24:24.470 you got? I mean, I chose to be a prosecutor because... 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:31.920 As a high school teacher, many of my students 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.500 were the victim of violent crime. I went to too 00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:37.400 many funerals of my students who were caught 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:43.859 in gang crossfire. And I saw the pain that their 00:24:43.859 --> 00:24:46.299 families experienced, that the larger community 00:24:46.299 --> 00:24:50.019 experienced. And so I wanted to go to bat for 00:24:50.019 --> 00:24:52.500 the victims of crime. I mean, that's what brought 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:57.259 me to the prosecutor's office. Interestingly 00:24:57.259 --> 00:25:00.180 enough, the prosecutor's office had a hiring 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:02.640 freeze when I got out of law school, so I initially 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:07.859 did defense work. And so I have a background 00:25:07.859 --> 00:25:11.460 that encompasses seeing both sides of the equation. 00:25:12.700 --> 00:25:15.660 And many of the people that I represented when 00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:18.599 I was doing defense work, you know, there are 00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:23.740 certain people who They were good for the crimes 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:26.680 that they were charged with. And my job as a 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:30.160 defense attorney was not necessarily to try and 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.279 get a not guilty verdict because sometimes the 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.400 evidence is overwhelming. But my job was to, 00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:38.279 you know, you have somebody who's 18, 22 years 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:42.220 of age. How can we impose a sanction on this 00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:47.160 person that is fair, that allows them to pay 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:50.759 a certain price, but then get on with their life? 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.519 On the other hand, and there are, you know, people 00:25:55.519 --> 00:26:01.740 who are, you know, pose a real danger to the 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:05.599 community. And that's what ultimately propelled 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.380 me into the prosecutor's office. Right. Well, 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:09.720 with, I mean, that's something I didn't even 00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:12.259 touch on. With you being in South Central, with 00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:15.160 the violence, I know the Crips and the Bloods 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:19.829 obviously was a notorious conflict. One of the 00:26:19.829 --> 00:26:23.910 schools I taught at was largely a rolling 60s. 00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:27.150 That was one of the major crip gangs in Los Angeles, 00:26:27.289 --> 00:26:30.410 extremely violent. I'd listen to my students 00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:32.849 come in on Monday morning and talk about who 00:26:32.849 --> 00:26:36.269 they shot that weekend. Now, when you reverse 00:26:36.269 --> 00:26:39.890 engineer that, what do you see as root causes? 00:26:39.990 --> 00:26:42.170 Because, I mean, you know, whether it's Catholics 00:26:42.170 --> 00:26:43.789 and Protestants in Northern Ireland, whether 00:26:43.789 --> 00:26:46.230 it's Palestine and Israel, whether it's Crips 00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:49.170 and Bloods, To me, there's always kind of like 00:26:49.170 --> 00:26:52.650 a starting point that, you know, that if we go 00:26:52.650 --> 00:26:54.869 far enough back, that's the root cause that we 00:26:54.869 --> 00:26:58.750 need to address. You know, so many times you 00:26:58.750 --> 00:27:01.930 have to look at the homes that they came out 00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:05.970 of where perhaps their parents, grandparents, 00:27:06.490 --> 00:27:10.630 uncles, etc. have had extremely limited opportunities. 00:27:12.809 --> 00:27:18.230 And so the role models of sitting down and opening 00:27:18.230 --> 00:27:21.150 a school book and writing essays and doing what 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:23.589 you need to do to succeed on a traditional path 00:27:23.589 --> 00:27:27.289 is something they've never experienced. The people 00:27:27.289 --> 00:27:29.509 in their neighborhoods who get respect are the 00:27:29.509 --> 00:27:31.970 ones who may be involved in criminal activity. 00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:38.269 You have way too many young people growing up 00:27:38.269 --> 00:27:42.150 in very fractured homes with the crack. epidemic 00:27:42.150 --> 00:27:46.210 in Los Angeles in the 1970s and 80s. You've had 00:27:46.210 --> 00:27:49.309 what were previously functioning families that 00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:52.329 were just totally destroyed. And so you have 00:27:52.329 --> 00:27:54.569 parents who are not meeting their most basic 00:27:54.569 --> 00:27:58.789 responsibilities to their children. And you have 00:27:58.789 --> 00:28:03.349 young people who are adrift. And so they're going 00:28:03.349 --> 00:28:06.990 to, I mean, one individual that comes to mind, 00:28:07.009 --> 00:28:09.990 his mother was a prostitute, his brother was 00:28:09.990 --> 00:28:16.630 in prison. He joined a gang. Surprise, surprise. 00:28:17.490 --> 00:28:21.390 Okay. It was the only organization in his community 00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:25.170 that, you know, gave him a sense of belonging, 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:31.150 you know, some protection. Having said that, 00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:38.289 students at Sarah High School who academically 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:43.240 put their nose to the grindstone. They grew up 00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:47.140 in neighborhoods that were full of gangs. But 00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:54.059 there's an interesting code, you know, when lawyers 00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:57.440 would come to me, you know, and say, well, you 00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.660 know, my client did this. He had no choice. He 00:28:59.660 --> 00:29:06.619 had to join a gang. I don't buy that. My experience. 00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:10.970 with some very violent gangs in Los Angeles, 00:29:11.210 --> 00:29:15.869 they knew the students who wanted to take a different 00:29:15.869 --> 00:29:23.309 path. They were the brainiacs. And they were, 00:29:23.470 --> 00:29:27.809 interestingly enough, proud of these individuals. 00:29:28.069 --> 00:29:31.609 Don't mess with so -and -so. He's going places. 00:29:32.349 --> 00:29:37.849 Okay? And so you could live in a neighborhood 00:29:37.849 --> 00:29:42.109 that was gang infested, so to speak. But if you 00:29:42.109 --> 00:29:47.170 were academically inclined, you normally were 00:29:47.170 --> 00:29:53.869 allowed to go fairly unscathed. It's so interesting 00:29:53.869 --> 00:29:56.910 because there's such a yearn. yearning to be 00:29:56.910 --> 00:29:58.950 in a tribe and you know obviously the fire service 00:29:58.950 --> 00:30:00.710 you know we have a tribe in our fire station 00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:03.349 when we transition out a lot of our men and women 00:30:03.349 --> 00:30:05.289 struggle because they've lost that tribe again 00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:07.930 but you know that's goes back to that mentorship 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:10.690 you know if your tribe your obvious tribe is 00:30:10.690 --> 00:30:13.410 the crips the bloods the ms -13 members whoever 00:30:13.410 --> 00:30:16.430 it is then you're gonna you know there's that 00:30:16.430 --> 00:30:19.819 kind of almost like um primeval draw towards 00:30:19.819 --> 00:30:23.279 that. But if there is a club, an academic, a 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:26.099 football team, then that could be a positive 00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:29.640 mentorship. How many single mothers did I talk 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.720 to in the course of my career as a teacher who 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.700 said, I took my kids to Pop Warner. I took them 00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:41.500 to the Y. I took them to the Boys and Girls Club. 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:47.180 I made sure they were occupied 24 -7. And that's 00:30:47.180 --> 00:30:51.000 why They are successful in school right now. 00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:57.680 But if you have absentee parenting figures, okay, 00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:01.559 the outcome is far more perilous. Absolutely. 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:04.380 Now, I want your perspective on something, and 00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:05.900 I don't want to, again, load it, but I'll give 00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:07.940 you kind of my background of my perspective. 00:31:09.259 --> 00:31:11.519 Being a firefighter paramedic and then prior 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.599 to that being a lifeguard, so for most of my 00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:17.640 life, we get to see – We're really behind the 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:19.420 curtain, behind the facade. We get to see what 00:31:19.420 --> 00:31:21.859 works, what doesn't work, the violence, you know, 00:31:21.859 --> 00:31:25.940 all this kind of thing. And a few years ago, 00:31:25.980 --> 00:31:28.200 after I started this podcast, my mom, my brother 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.500 had moved to Portugal from England. And my mom 00:31:30.500 --> 00:31:32.240 said, hey, do you know that they decriminalized 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:35.579 addiction here? I said, no, I had no idea. And 00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:39.480 so I ended up going on one of my visits back 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:41.640 to see them. I went to Lisbon and sat down with 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:45.220 the man, Zhao Gulau, who spearheaded that decriminalization 00:31:45.220 --> 00:31:49.380 in that country. And they took addicts and rather 00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:51.160 than send them through the legal system, they 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:52.960 sent them through the medical system. They got 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:54.859 psychological counseling, addiction counseling, 00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.700 job creation, all these great proactive measures. 00:31:58.490 --> 00:32:00.549 And then through that lens, I started looking 00:32:00.549 --> 00:32:03.490 at all the things that I see as a firefighter, 00:32:03.490 --> 00:32:05.369 the gang violence, all the 16 -year -olds have 00:32:05.369 --> 00:32:08.609 pulled yellow sheets over and the overdoses and 00:32:08.609 --> 00:32:11.369 all these things. And it made me realize that 00:32:11.369 --> 00:32:16.789 that particular prohibition has created so much 00:32:16.789 --> 00:32:18.829 death and destruction and violence and problems. 00:32:18.990 --> 00:32:21.049 And you compare, for example, the streets of 00:32:21.049 --> 00:32:25.359 South Central to the streets of Oslo. they're 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.180 all humans what are we doing differently so without 00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:31.339 loading the question myself i am a huge fan of 00:32:31.339 --> 00:32:33.759 the removal of prohibition not of selling not 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:37.500 of not of smuggling but of addiction um what 00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:39.859 is your stance on that having seen what you've 00:32:39.859 --> 00:32:42.559 seen the last few decades well i have a question 00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.319 in response to what you observed in portugal 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:51.049 and elsewhere um how do those countries get people 00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:54.170 to get into programs that address their mental 00:32:54.170 --> 00:32:56.869 health and addiction circumstances. So it was 00:32:56.869 --> 00:32:58.670 very interesting because, I mean, that's a great 00:32:58.670 --> 00:33:01.890 question. I wondered the same. So many people 00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:07.049 who are addicts don't ask for help because of 00:33:07.049 --> 00:33:10.990 the fear of being arrested. So what they found 00:33:10.990 --> 00:33:13.490 is once they did that, so say if you were detained 00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:16.869 with, you know, possession. You weren't even 00:33:16.869 --> 00:33:18.809 arrested. You went and literally had an interview 00:33:18.809 --> 00:33:21.690 and you were educated on the resources. You didn't 00:33:21.690 --> 00:33:23.970 even have to go. They planted that seed into 00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:26.980 your head. They took, you know, obviously there's 00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:28.859 some addicts that will never come off. They put 00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:31.759 them in safe injection sites. You know, they 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:33.779 had, you know, the needle services and all that. 00:33:33.859 --> 00:33:35.759 But if you were, for example, a fentanyl addict, 00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:39.539 then you went to a clinic, you took your fentanyl, 00:33:39.579 --> 00:33:41.299 which was the actual dose. You're not going to 00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:44.339 OD. And then you went about your day. But majority 00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:47.859 of people were just suppressing trauma. So once 00:33:47.859 --> 00:33:49.839 they actually were on that road and they were 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.119 able to really address why they're an addict 00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.559 in the first place. They saw an incredible success. 00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:58.299 And then a lot of those funds that they were 00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:01.720 using to fight the war on drugs now went into 00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:04.359 law enforcement. The courts were cleared because 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:06.900 of all the, you know, the almost elimination 00:34:06.900 --> 00:34:09.900 of drug related cases. So, you know, in that 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:11.840 lens, I mean, it was it was amazing to hear. 00:34:11.900 --> 00:34:13.739 But yet it was basically removing the stigma 00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:15.940 so that these men and women could actually ask 00:34:15.940 --> 00:34:21.179 for help. The United States is moving in that 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:25.820 direction. OK, in Los Angeles, in California 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:34.300 specifically, possession is a misdemeanor. Similarly, 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:39.260 you're not going to you may be arrested. They'll 00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:41.440 write you up and you're immediately released. 00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:50.539 If you are brought to court. There is no meaningful 00:34:50.539 --> 00:34:56.550 jail time. And what I have seen, which is difficult 00:34:56.550 --> 00:35:01.730 to deal with, is with fentanyl, particularly 00:35:01.730 --> 00:35:04.769 with methamphetamine, because that's the drug 00:35:04.769 --> 00:35:12.869 of choice in Los Angeles now. You offer a person 00:35:12.869 --> 00:35:18.389 who is a regular meth user drug treatment, okay? 00:35:18.769 --> 00:35:21.949 Residential, outpatient, whatever it is, okay? 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:30.139 Or you say, you know, we're going to have you 00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:34.000 do 90 days in jail. Those are your choices. They 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.300 know that 90 days in jail means that they'll 00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:41.579 get out tonight. OK, because of the overcrowding, 00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:46.420 et cetera, lack of funds, whatever. 90 days mean 00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:50.630 you're immediately released. And so you. The 00:35:50.630 --> 00:35:53.289 problem that we're confronting is that no one, 00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:57.730 I shouldn't say no one, the majority of people 00:35:57.730 --> 00:36:01.269 who are addicted to methamphetamine are more 00:36:01.269 --> 00:36:05.289 committed to maintaining their access to that 00:36:05.289 --> 00:36:11.869 drug than getting into drug treatment. And that's 00:36:11.869 --> 00:36:19.380 incredibly problematic. Once somebody says, I 00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:23.519 want something more out of my life. Then they'll 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:25.460 end up at one of the missions or one of the treatment 00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:28.159 programs. Okay, they'll end up in the running 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:32.900 club. But before they get to that point, and 00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:35.219 there are many who have been in the running program 00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:39.800 who, you know, they relapse and relapse and relapse 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:43.599 because the lure of methamphetamine and the high 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:47.460 that it gives them, as you say, to cover up trauma 00:36:47.460 --> 00:36:53.360 in their own life. is so powerful that they cannot 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:58.000 separate themselves from it. And if someone could 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.420 tell me how you could get a person in that circumstance 00:37:01.420 --> 00:37:05.480 to choose recovery over continuing addiction, 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:10.699 I am all ears. Yeah, you see, and it's an interesting 00:37:10.699 --> 00:37:14.300 concept. And again, I'm not completely well -versed, 00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:16.940 but what I've seen is firstly you take, you address, 00:37:17.809 --> 00:37:19.949 the large part that you can change. Of course, 00:37:19.969 --> 00:37:22.090 you've got, you know, whether it's certain drugs, 00:37:22.110 --> 00:37:23.989 whether it's certain groups where they're staying, 00:37:24.170 --> 00:37:26.210 but then you bring them into a clinical setting. 00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:29.670 So I don't know if you're able to wean them or 00:37:29.670 --> 00:37:31.550 while they're in a clinical setting, kind of 00:37:31.550 --> 00:37:34.369 get them the counseling at the same time. I'm 00:37:34.369 --> 00:37:36.110 not sure, you know, I'm not well -versed enough 00:37:36.110 --> 00:37:38.969 on that particular drug just to find out what 00:37:38.969 --> 00:37:40.389 they would do. But I mean, I'd need to basically 00:37:40.389 --> 00:37:43.190 ask Zhao again, like, what did they do? And get 00:37:43.190 --> 00:37:46.599 you a concrete question. But yeah, I mean, but 00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:51.320 I think it's just... We used to be able to, we 00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:55.760 had what was called DEJ, Deferred Injury of Judgment, 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.719 where it was sort of a carrot. You're going to 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:03.840 get arrested for drug possession, but it'll be 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.000 completely wiped off of your record if you'll 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.219 commit to going to outpatient treatment a couple 00:38:10.219 --> 00:38:14.860 times a week. OK, that program just has died. 00:38:15.980 --> 00:38:20.900 Because there's no incentive for the drug user 00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:25.239 to participate in that program. Yeah. Yeah. No, 00:38:25.340 --> 00:38:28.500 I mean, like I said, it's not a black and white, 00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:31.780 one and done answer. But I think the philosophy 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:34.340 is incredible. But the question is, you know, 00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:36.000 how, again, I mean, you've got such an acute 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.320 lens, too. I mean, you know, L .A. is a highly 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:45.340 densely populated city, you know, with a higher 00:38:45.340 --> 00:38:47.480 level of violence and maybe addiction as well. 00:38:47.900 --> 00:38:50.739 And the methamphetamine and crack, I mean, it's 00:38:50.739 --> 00:38:54.219 just flooded into our communities. There's so 00:38:54.219 --> 00:39:00.099 much money to be made. OK. And since the sanctions 00:39:00.099 --> 00:39:05.150 have been. largely wiped out law enforcement 00:39:05.150 --> 00:39:11.409 has essentially removed themselves from trying 00:39:11.409 --> 00:39:14.690 to in my opinion stop the flow of those drugs 00:39:14.690 --> 00:39:17.230 into our communities yeah well i know one thing 00:39:17.230 --> 00:39:20.619 as well that i did see so when that you know, 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:22.480 was put in place in Portugal. I don't know if 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:24.659 maybe meth wasn't one of the ones that was flooding 00:39:24.659 --> 00:39:27.840 in that country. But you cut the head off the 00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.300 snake, supply and demand. So now you're taking 00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:34.320 away the power from the pushers and smugglers. 00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:37.059 You've got more police resources to focus on 00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:40.320 the pusher and the smuggler. And, you know, I 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.099 think that was another huge element, you know, 00:39:43.099 --> 00:39:45.500 that they saw huge success with was once you 00:39:45.500 --> 00:39:48.260 take away the customer, then... There's no money 00:39:48.260 --> 00:39:50.260 for the underworld for that particular route. 00:39:50.380 --> 00:39:54.099 And I say, no, I mean, it's minimized. But, you 00:39:54.099 --> 00:39:56.619 know, to sort of tie this into our discussion 00:39:56.619 --> 00:40:02.059 about what I learned when I was a teacher, when 00:40:02.059 --> 00:40:07.139 you hit the nail on the head, when you have people 00:40:07.139 --> 00:40:12.099 who are coming out of unsupportive, dysfunctional 00:40:12.099 --> 00:40:15.900 families who have not been adequately reared 00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:21.539 or loved. OK, you are just setting that person 00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:27.599 up for addiction. Yeah, absolutely. And I said 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:31.480 that's just it. So turning it back into the running 00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:36.019 club path now, I would love to hear about Roderick 00:40:36.019 --> 00:40:39.820 Brown and kind of how that was the genesis of, 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:42.000 you know, what not what you've not only done 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.739 now, but, you know, an incredible, powerful documentary. 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.539 that shows what you guys are doing. Well, I mean, 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.380 there's great irony when I talk about Roderick 00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:56.000 Brown. Roderick Brown, as you know from the documentary, 00:40:56.179 --> 00:41:00.139 was an individual that I sent to state prison, 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:03.679 not for a long period of time, a couple years. 00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:09.460 And when he was released from custody, he was 00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:12.679 paroled to the midnight mission. And for some 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.099 reason, he decided he liked the way I treated 00:41:15.099 --> 00:41:18.559 him when he was in my courtroom. He came back 00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.440 to my courtroom and invited me to come down to 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.980 Skid Row to the midnight mission and meet the 00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:28.840 people who were involved in his recovery. And 00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:32.699 I did that. And when I went down to the mission, 00:41:32.780 --> 00:41:35.039 they asked me, is there something I could do 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:39.280 to contribute to the program? And my three children 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:41.719 were either in college or grad school, so I didn't 00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:43.980 have a lot of extra money just to write a check. 00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:47.599 But I had some time on my hands. And I said, 00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:49.539 well, you know, maybe I could start a running 00:41:49.539 --> 00:41:52.139 program. The interesting thing about Roderick 00:41:52.139 --> 00:41:55.159 Brown is Roderick Brown, and that was 10 years 00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:59.500 ago. Roderick Brown to this day remains a captive 00:41:59.500 --> 00:42:03.519 to his addiction. Roderick Brown never ran a 00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:08.500 single mile with us. Now, his lasting legacy 00:42:08.500 --> 00:42:14.159 is that he got me down to Skid Row, and he is 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:20.099 the person responsible for the ultimate genesis 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:23.619 of the Skid Row Running Club. But he has never 00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:26.940 been the beneficiary of that program. What do 00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:28.159 you think, just staying on him for a moment, 00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:31.019 what do you think his own barrier is? Why was 00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:39.809 he not able to when so many people were? Roderick 00:42:39.809 --> 00:42:42.849 Brown has a real difficult time making prudent 00:42:42.849 --> 00:42:49.590 decisions. And whether you can ultimately tie 00:42:49.590 --> 00:42:56.269 that to a life from its almost inception of just 00:42:56.269 --> 00:43:01.889 being completely chaotic, never being able to 00:43:01.889 --> 00:43:04.849 step outside of himself and in an objective sense, 00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:12.500 assess what he has been doing wrong. Roderick 00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:15.719 Brown is a very complex human being, so full 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.179 of contradictions and conflicts. He's never been 00:43:20.179 --> 00:43:24.099 able to escape it. And have you heard his early 00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:29.179 life? I mean, are there elements? I mean, Roderick 00:43:29.179 --> 00:43:31.420 would come up and spend time in my courtroom, 00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:34.119 come back into chambers. I mean, we spent a lot 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:38.530 of time together. You know, I'm privy to. But 00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:43.170 his past. I'm also privy to the fact that, you 00:43:43.170 --> 00:43:49.889 know, he is seemingly incapable of any long term 00:43:49.889 --> 00:43:53.710 sobriety. Yeah, well, like you said, it's a tragic 00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:57.449 irony, but I think that's also a kind of pertinent 00:43:57.449 --> 00:44:01.469 point is it seems to me that when there's an 00:44:01.469 --> 00:44:05.440 initiative, the naysayers will look at. what 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.380 doesn't work. And often that might be a very, 00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:09.619 very small part of the puzzle. And the assumption 00:44:09.619 --> 00:44:12.519 that we can fix everyone with prohibition of 00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:14.480 drugs, with, you know, whatever it is. Which 00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:18.119 we can't. No, exactly. So, but, you know, if 00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:20.940 we can affect a large amount of people, then 00:44:20.940 --> 00:44:23.699 absolutely it's worth it. So talk to me about, 00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:26.679 so he inspired you to take that first step. So 00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:28.440 tell me about the growth of the running club 00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:30.940 and what kind of men and women, you know, the 00:44:30.940 --> 00:44:32.599 background of those men and women that were coming 00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:39.099 and running with you. The people who form the 00:44:39.099 --> 00:44:40.940 bulk of the members of the running club are people 00:44:40.940 --> 00:44:44.159 who are in recovery, okay, who at some point 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:48.440 in time hit rock bottom and ended up on skid 00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:52.420 row at one of the major missions, Midnight Mission, 00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:55.019 Union Rescue, LA Mission, Fred Jordan Mission, 00:44:55.139 --> 00:44:59.679 and got involved in, you know, ultimately a 12 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:05.340 -step program. That whole... path toward recovery 00:45:05.340 --> 00:45:12.840 and sobriety. And those who were inclined got 00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:15.880 involved in the running program, knowing that 00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:20.199 that could add some really distinct benefits 00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:23.860 in their life. We run three days a week, Monday, 00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:27.199 Thursdays, and Saturdays. We travel around the 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:29.780 world once a year to run an international marathon. 00:45:30.809 --> 00:45:33.989 You get to participate in the LA Marathon. We 00:45:33.989 --> 00:45:38.449 do races, triathlons. We just did a bike ride 00:45:38.449 --> 00:45:41.449 from Los Angeles to, or from San Francisco to 00:45:41.449 --> 00:45:46.769 Los Angeles. I mean, if you want something to 00:45:46.769 --> 00:45:51.869 really augment your recovery program, to strengthen 00:45:51.869 --> 00:45:56.809 it, okay, Skid Row Running Club offers you that 00:45:56.809 --> 00:46:03.739 opportunity. You know, I'm sure you appreciate 00:46:03.739 --> 00:46:09.960 the fact that people in recovery, when they see 00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:13.679 other individuals in recovery succeeding and 00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:17.480 supporting one another and caring for one another, 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:21.019 that increases the likelihood of their success. 00:46:21.820 --> 00:46:24.840 And what also increases the likelihood of their 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.989 success? It's the same thing we were talking 00:46:27.989 --> 00:46:31.869 about in terms of how do you avoid gang life 00:46:31.869 --> 00:46:34.710 if you're a young person in South Central. If 00:46:34.710 --> 00:46:36.730 you're playing football, if you're at the boys 00:46:36.730 --> 00:46:39.809 club dribbling a basketball down the court, if 00:46:39.809 --> 00:46:45.190 you're involved in the Boy Scouts, your time 00:46:45.190 --> 00:46:48.409 is occupied. And the Skid Row Running Club, I 00:46:48.409 --> 00:46:51.010 mean, we are doing things in the Skid Row Running 00:46:51.010 --> 00:46:54.989 Club. Yes, we have our major runs Mondays, Thursdays, 00:46:54.989 --> 00:46:59.659 and Saturdays. But one of the things that caused 00:46:59.659 --> 00:47:02.980 me some regret about scheduling this interview 00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:06.159 with you this morning is it meant that I couldn't 00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:08.820 be out at Santa Monica Beach swimming in the 00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.900 ocean with 10 to 15 members of the Skid Row Running 00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:15.199 Club, because that's what we do every Friday. 00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:21.039 On Sunday, we're doing the same thing. We have 00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.619 a woman who is with the Los Angeles Tri Club, 00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:29.210 and they're teaching our... members the correct 00:47:29.210 --> 00:47:34.030 form to swim. And so you've got, and what are 00:47:34.030 --> 00:47:35.949 you doing in the evenings if you're in recovery? 00:47:36.230 --> 00:47:39.369 You're going to meetings. When I drive down to 00:47:39.369 --> 00:47:42.110 the beach with one of our members, he's got a 00:47:42.110 --> 00:47:45.329 meeting playing on his phone. We're not talking 00:47:45.329 --> 00:47:49.269 to each other. He's involved in a 12 -step meeting. 00:47:49.889 --> 00:47:53.889 So, I mean, it's, you know, if you can occupy 00:47:53.889 --> 00:47:58.239 your time with constructive positive experiences, 00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:03.699 surrounded by good people, the likelihood of 00:48:03.699 --> 00:48:07.059 your long -term sobriety is increased immeasurably. 00:48:07.659 --> 00:48:10.119 Yeah. Well, the other thing that just rings out 00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:11.960 to me is that they're part of a positive tribe 00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:14.719 again. I mean, it must be an incredibly lonely 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:18.360 life being a homeless addict on Skid Row. So 00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:21.679 when they become part of the running club, I 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.239 mean, it's giving them a reason. you know, something 00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:26.760 to shoot for every day, a reason to actually, 00:48:26.900 --> 00:48:29.800 you know, not only be part of that team, but 00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:31.059 I mean, you're traveling around the world, you're 00:48:31.059 --> 00:48:33.239 inspiring other people, you become a beacon of 00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:35.699 hope for other people, as you mentioned. No. 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:41.739 You know, the methodology, you know, is not terribly 00:48:41.739 --> 00:48:45.380 complex. One of the things I hate the most is 00:48:45.380 --> 00:48:47.280 when, you know, we're talking about things like 00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.139 this and someone says, oh, yeah, but it's complicated, 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:52.000 which is the best sentence to discount any work. 00:48:52.670 --> 00:48:55.050 That is needed to actually affect change. So, 00:48:55.070 --> 00:48:57.570 yeah, I mean, it's it's I find that most of the, 00:48:57.610 --> 00:49:01.110 as I said, root causes to address them fundamentally 00:49:01.110 --> 00:49:04.130 are very simple. It just takes courage and, you 00:49:04.130 --> 00:49:06.449 know, applying funds in the right direction rather 00:49:06.449 --> 00:49:09.530 than, you know, reactively wasting them. Larry 00:49:09.530 --> 00:49:11.909 Adamson, who was the president of the Midnight 00:49:11.909 --> 00:49:14.269 Mission when I went down there 10 years ago, 00:49:14.409 --> 00:49:17.369 he said, you know, Craig, we're in the self -esteem 00:49:17.369 --> 00:49:21.179 business. That's what recovery is about. rebuilding 00:49:21.179 --> 00:49:26.599 a person's self -esteem. And that is not a complex 00:49:26.599 --> 00:49:31.840 proposition. You know, I have no great talents 00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:36.260 or gifts in this area, apart from the fact that 00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:41.739 I am willing to spend the time. Okay. And, you 00:49:41.739 --> 00:49:46.000 know, don't utter the words, oh, I love you. 00:49:46.059 --> 00:49:52.230 I care. Forget all that crap. Okay. Be with the 00:49:52.230 --> 00:49:57.010 other person. Drive the person to wherever the 00:49:57.010 --> 00:50:01.130 event is occurring. Those are the things that 00:50:01.130 --> 00:50:04.369 matter. Beautiful. Well, you mentioned Roderick. 00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.360 Again, I hope that the seed is still sown and 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:11.599 one day he'll finally be able to find the strength. 00:50:11.980 --> 00:50:14.739 Like I said, I'm sending hope. But talk to me 00:50:14.739 --> 00:50:17.099 about some of the success stories, some of the 00:50:17.099 --> 00:50:18.880 men and women that really have found their way 00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:25.380 out of that darkness. The individuals in the 00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:31.550 movie. Rebecca. who was a heroin addict for years, 00:50:31.769 --> 00:50:35.929 involved in a lot to support that habit. I just 00:50:35.929 --> 00:50:39.989 got an email yesterday afternoon. She is celebrating 00:50:39.989 --> 00:50:43.909 her 10th year of sobriety. She is a surgical 00:50:43.909 --> 00:50:47.670 tech. She is married. She's a good mother. Her 00:50:47.670 --> 00:50:50.050 and her husband just bought a home up in Seattle. 00:50:51.789 --> 00:50:55.530 Tremendous success story. Ben Shirley, who was 00:50:55.530 --> 00:51:01.099 the musician in the movie. He and his wife just 00:51:01.099 --> 00:51:06.159 bought a home in Ohio. He continues to compose 00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:10.800 for the movie industry, and that's how he sustains 00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:17.139 himself. He also is 10 years sober. People who 00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:21.719 are currently newer members of the club, I won't 00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:24.059 mention names, but we have one of our individuals 00:51:24.059 --> 00:51:28.090 who... is now working for the Department of Mental 00:51:28.090 --> 00:51:30.789 Health as a outreach worker in the community. 00:51:31.610 --> 00:51:35.869 He was just offered a job by a medical office 00:51:35.869 --> 00:51:38.969 in downtown to do outreach to the homeless population 00:51:38.969 --> 00:51:44.150 that that medical office is serving, double his 00:51:44.150 --> 00:51:48.449 present salary. Okay, he's been clean and sober 00:51:48.449 --> 00:51:53.230 for four years. He is a sponsor to some of our 00:51:53.230 --> 00:51:59.780 new runners. Another individual who joined us 00:51:59.780 --> 00:52:02.860 about three years ago. He's now a counselor at 00:52:02.860 --> 00:52:09.780 a home for troubled young people. He can definitely 00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:16.239 identify. He was raised in a house of prostitution. 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:20.800 He came home from junior high school one day. 00:52:20.900 --> 00:52:26.889 The house was on fire. His mother died. The authorities 00:52:26.889 --> 00:52:29.130 tried to pick him up and put him in foster care. 00:52:29.309 --> 00:52:32.309 This particular individual has been on his own 00:52:32.309 --> 00:52:37.389 since about 14 years of age. He ran from the 00:52:37.389 --> 00:52:40.710 Department of Children and Family Services. What 00:52:40.710 --> 00:52:43.550 is he doing now? He's in a stable relationship. 00:52:44.710 --> 00:52:49.230 He has been sober for probably four years as 00:52:49.230 --> 00:52:52.880 well. full -time employed has his own apartment 00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.840 i mean i could go on i could just pick this person 00:52:55.840 --> 00:53:00.519 this person this person and you know there's 00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:04.039 incredible success beautiful well that proves 00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:06.400 my point i mean you have this giant list and 00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:08.019 obviously you know there are some i didn't work 00:53:08.019 --> 00:53:10.829 for but that's like you said that's what it might 00:53:10.829 --> 00:53:12.969 be a different thing that changes them it might 00:53:12.969 --> 00:53:14.809 never change them and sadly that would be someone 00:53:14.809 --> 00:53:17.210 that we lose but look at all the names look at 00:53:17.210 --> 00:53:20.130 all the stories i mean i've got almost 500 people 00:53:20.130 --> 00:53:22.949 on this podcast now 500 episodes and some of 00:53:22.949 --> 00:53:24.750 the incredible stories just just most recently 00:53:24.750 --> 00:53:28.050 i interviewed colin broderick who's a incredibly 00:53:28.050 --> 00:53:31.849 respected author and filmmaker now and he was 00:53:31.849 --> 00:53:35.510 deep in you know alcoholism he was homeless and 00:53:35.510 --> 00:53:38.880 just I think he was like 40 years old, managed 00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:41.219 to pull himself out and started writing. And 00:53:41.219 --> 00:53:43.239 again, the right people, the right environment 00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:46.119 created that perfect, positive storm to get him 00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:48.960 out. But with that, without that right environment, 00:53:49.059 --> 00:53:52.440 whether it's people like yourself creating opportunities 00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:56.699 for tribalism and community and healing, then 00:53:56.699 --> 00:53:59.380 we're not going to fix the problem. So that's 00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:02.820 what's so powerful to me. It is. And the larger 00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:05.380 community, I want everybody to understand, you 00:54:05.380 --> 00:54:07.760 know, Craig Mitchell is one piece of the puzzle. 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:14.780 We have gotten the exposure to the larger community 00:54:14.780 --> 00:54:23.000 where we have now a higher up in UPS. We have 00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:27.800 one of our board members is high up in L .A. 00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:35.949 tourism. people who have the resources to say, 00:54:36.010 --> 00:54:38.429 okay, you know, I've run with you for the last 00:54:38.429 --> 00:54:40.710 eight weeks. You really seem to have something 00:54:40.710 --> 00:54:43.190 going for you. I like your personality. I like 00:54:43.190 --> 00:54:45.610 your dedication. You get along well with other 00:54:45.610 --> 00:54:49.010 people. We have a positioning opening up in about 00:54:49.010 --> 00:54:52.590 a month. I'd like you to apply for it. And I 00:54:52.590 --> 00:54:56.030 can point to the number of people in our running 00:54:56.030 --> 00:55:00.949 program who have secured jobs. by those type 00:55:00.949 --> 00:55:04.010 of connections. That's incredible. Now, with 00:55:04.010 --> 00:55:11.449 a checkered past and maybe some legal elements 00:55:11.449 --> 00:55:14.969 hanging over someone's head as far as criminal 00:55:14.969 --> 00:55:17.590 record, how do some of these men and women overcome 00:55:17.590 --> 00:55:21.010 that when it comes to gaining employment? Let 00:55:21.010 --> 00:55:23.789 me just use the example of one of the people 00:55:23.789 --> 00:55:26.070 featured in the documentary, Rafael Cabrera. 00:55:26.889 --> 00:55:29.369 And Rafael Cabrera was convicted of first -degree 00:55:29.369 --> 00:55:33.050 murder. Rafael Cabrera is now working for the 00:55:33.050 --> 00:55:35.489 Department of Water and Power, making over $50 00:55:35.489 --> 00:55:39.309 an hour. Okay? So when people come into my court 00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:41.349 and say, oh, Judge Mitchell, I can't get a job. 00:55:41.389 --> 00:55:44.170 I've got a felony on my record. I ain't buying 00:55:44.170 --> 00:55:49.510 it. Okay? We have organizations, be it the Anti 00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:52.690 -Recidivism Coalition, be it Chrysalis in downtown 00:55:52.690 --> 00:55:56.139 Los Angeles. There's a whole host. of organizations 00:55:56.139 --> 00:55:59.960 that know the employers that are willing to risk 00:55:59.960 --> 00:56:04.539 hiring someone with a criminal record. And if 00:56:04.539 --> 00:56:08.639 you can end up making $50 an hour with the Department 00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:10.880 of Water and Power and having been convicted 00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:13.659 of first degree murder, if you're resourceful, 00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:16.159 it's not going to be an impediment. Yeah. Well, 00:56:16.219 --> 00:56:17.920 that's so good to hear again. I mean, I've had 00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.420 people on here that went into the military and 00:56:20.420 --> 00:56:23.400 had to get legal help to... to get their records 00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:27.619 expunged or whatever the solution was. And then, 00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:29.340 like I said, in Portugal, there's actually incentives 00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:34.199 to employers to hire recovering addicts. So again, 00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:36.539 proactive versus reactive. So that's beautiful 00:56:36.539 --> 00:56:39.639 to hear. Now, are you going to get a job as a 00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:43.019 police officer? No. So don't spin your wheel. 00:56:43.900 --> 00:56:46.719 But there are a lot of opportunities out there. 00:56:46.940 --> 00:56:49.619 Absolutely. Well, one more area before we shift 00:56:49.619 --> 00:56:51.340 to some closing questions so I can let you go. 00:56:51.500 --> 00:56:54.239 I'm just curious because you have such an extreme 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:57.420 lens with you running literally on Skid Row. 00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:03.619 What have you seen, not the obvious pandemic 00:57:03.619 --> 00:57:06.139 itself, the virus, the illnesses and everything, 00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:10.559 but more the unseen ripple effect of this last 00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:13.559 18 months on addiction, on homelessness, on some 00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:15.099 of the things that you get to see with your own 00:57:15.099 --> 00:57:19.320 eyes on the streets? I mean, interestingly enough, 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:23.840 and we have for all but about two and a half 00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:26.760 to three months, we have continued running on 00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:29.440 Skid Row three times a week. At the very beginning, 00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:32.480 we followed the public health advisories and 00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:38.300 suspended it for a brief period of time. But 00:57:38.300 --> 00:57:44.400 the number of tents, the drug dealers on bicycles. 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:52.500 the overdoses, it really hasn't been impacted 00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:57.400 tremendously by the pandemic, from my point of 00:57:57.400 --> 00:58:03.159 view. The public health officials were terribly 00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:08.139 concerned that COVID would decimate the homeless 00:58:08.139 --> 00:58:12.150 population in Los Angeles. Given the proximity 00:58:12.150 --> 00:58:14.570 that they live to one another, their lack of 00:58:14.570 --> 00:58:18.030 access to good health care, their compromised 00:58:18.030 --> 00:58:20.630 immune system because of long -term drug abuse, 00:58:20.849 --> 00:58:26.070 it hasn't happened. There's a slightly higher 00:58:26.070 --> 00:58:30.010 COVID infection rate amongst the homeless population, 00:58:30.409 --> 00:58:34.510 but only marginal. See, again, this is why I 00:58:34.510 --> 00:58:36.349 love these conversations. You get to hear it 00:58:36.349 --> 00:58:39.829 from... And it's not trying to push a pro or 00:58:39.829 --> 00:58:43.070 anti or any sort of agenda. It's just I love 00:58:43.070 --> 00:58:44.869 it when I hear from the doctors and the nurses. 00:58:44.969 --> 00:58:47.230 One of my doctor friends that's been on a couple 00:58:47.230 --> 00:58:50.130 of times right now, he's got another influx just 00:58:50.130 --> 00:58:52.269 outside Austin, Texas, where they are there. 00:58:52.309 --> 00:58:54.929 His particular ER is full of a lot of COVID cases 00:58:54.929 --> 00:58:59.369 again. But overall, what is the impact in the 00:58:59.369 --> 00:59:02.429 rural setting versus L .A.? And to hear that. 00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:05.260 that perspective of, yeah, I mean, you would 00:59:05.260 --> 00:59:07.880 think a very, very fragile population, that's 00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:10.360 very interesting. And again, I think, I hope 00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:13.280 that serves as optimism for people, because we've 00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:15.980 been told a lot of doom and gloom, and it's got 00:59:15.980 --> 00:59:17.719 a lot of people very scared, which I think is 00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:20.219 terrible for the immune system. But that's something 00:59:20.219 --> 00:59:22.579 to be celebrated. If it's not as bad as, you 00:59:22.579 --> 00:59:25.059 know, we were hoping, and the fragile population 00:59:25.059 --> 00:59:27.659 living on the streets aren't as affected, then 00:59:27.659 --> 00:59:30.300 that should be on the news too, I think. So thank 00:59:30.300 --> 00:59:33.750 you for sharing that perspective. You know, and, 00:59:34.070 --> 00:59:36.809 you know, for the person living in the tent and 00:59:36.809 --> 00:59:40.869 addicted to methamphetamine, you know, COVID 00:59:40.869 --> 00:59:45.170 is not the front and center of preoccupation 00:59:45.170 --> 00:59:48.269 than it would be for like you and I. No. And 00:59:48.269 --> 00:59:51.269 that's my point is what breaks my heart is what 00:59:51.269 --> 00:59:53.630 a great opportunity for us to have had a discussion 00:59:53.630 --> 00:59:56.650 on obesity, on addiction, on all these things 00:59:56.650 --> 00:59:58.909 when health is supposed to be front and center. 00:59:58.969 --> 01:00:02.099 But that's what I'm seeing is that it's it. That 01:00:02.099 --> 01:00:04.519 one thing has all the discussion and, you know, 01:00:04.579 --> 01:00:07.860 such a wasted opportunity to address some underlying 01:00:07.860 --> 01:00:10.360 things because when COVID's come and gone, addiction 01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:12.079 and obesity are still going to be there and we're 01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:15.139 still going to be losing people. Yes. Well, again, 01:00:15.219 --> 01:00:17.639 I thank you for your perspective on that. So 01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:19.360 I want to shift some closing questions so I can 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:20.659 let you get on with your day. And I love the 01:00:20.659 --> 01:00:22.039 fact that you're in your running stuff because 01:00:22.039 --> 01:00:24.900 I read on one of the interviews they did on you 01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:27.659 that you have your, you know, your gown over 01:00:27.659 --> 01:00:30.340 your running gear. Over my running gear. That's 01:00:30.340 --> 01:00:34.269 right. So now I can see that firsthand. The first 01:00:34.269 --> 01:00:37.070 question I love to ask, is there a book that 01:00:37.070 --> 01:00:39.849 you love to recommend to people? It can be related 01:00:39.849 --> 01:00:41.789 to our discussion today or completely unrelated. 01:00:43.289 --> 01:00:46.369 Apart from running, probably my second most favorite 01:00:46.369 --> 01:00:49.789 pastime is to read. I read about a book a week. 01:00:51.369 --> 01:00:58.929 And there isn't a favorite book. One book recently, 01:00:59.130 --> 01:01:05.110 though, that. I think really helped me understand 01:01:05.110 --> 01:01:08.929 the community that I am working in much better 01:01:08.929 --> 01:01:16.570 is Coates' The Color of Water. Incredible novel, 01:01:16.690 --> 01:01:25.070 but I can't identify a narrative about slavery, 01:01:25.429 --> 01:01:31.690 this country that made me appreciate the psychological 01:01:31.690 --> 01:01:39.489 savagery of slavery. You know, roots and book 01:01:39.489 --> 01:01:43.409 after book after book. You know, you get the 01:01:43.409 --> 01:01:49.070 visuals, the slave markets, the lynchings, the 01:01:49.070 --> 01:01:55.969 whippings, okay? But this book conveys the incredible 01:01:55.969 --> 01:02:00.900 psychological toll. of that institution in a 01:02:00.900 --> 01:02:05.659 way that was new and insightful to me. Brilliant. 01:02:05.699 --> 01:02:07.139 I'm going to have to get that. Thank you so much. 01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:09.340 I've never had that recommended before. It's 01:02:09.340 --> 01:02:11.840 very interesting as well when you talk of slavery. 01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:14.619 Again, we reverse engineer, and it'll be interesting 01:02:14.619 --> 01:02:16.420 to get your perspective with you having read 01:02:16.420 --> 01:02:19.440 several books on this. But I went to the Charleston 01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:21.539 Museum with my family, the slavery museum, excuse 01:02:21.539 --> 01:02:24.619 me, in Charleston. Again, I think that's a must 01:02:24.619 --> 01:02:26.340 visit for anyone that lives in this country. 01:02:27.179 --> 01:02:29.619 But it was interesting because, you know, my 01:02:29.619 --> 01:02:32.059 ancestors, some of the British slave traders 01:02:32.059 --> 01:02:33.739 were the ones that were actually going there 01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:35.260 and bringing the slaves over. And then we were 01:02:35.260 --> 01:02:38.360 basically trading for goods in America so that 01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:40.739 we came back. Well, they, not say we, they came 01:02:40.739 --> 01:02:42.820 back with their hands clean. But it kind of made 01:02:42.820 --> 01:02:45.460 me realize that, you know, at that time when 01:02:45.460 --> 01:02:49.780 slavery was right, Britain was actually going 01:02:49.780 --> 01:02:55.949 through, you know, a huge time of poverty. When 01:02:55.949 --> 01:02:57.670 we look at slavery, we think of like, you know, 01:02:57.690 --> 01:02:59.650 all Americans, we're all British. And actually, 01:02:59.750 --> 01:03:01.750 you know, most of them, John the blacksmith in 01:03:01.750 --> 01:03:04.730 rural Somerset had no idea that slave trading 01:03:04.730 --> 01:03:09.329 was going on. So what, again, when you reverse 01:03:09.329 --> 01:03:12.329 engineer, to me, so many times these issues come 01:03:12.329 --> 01:03:15.989 from greed and power from the few. With all the 01:03:15.989 --> 01:03:17.969 books that you've read on that, you know, what 01:03:17.969 --> 01:03:19.949 was that element? Like who, how many people were 01:03:19.949 --> 01:03:22.590 truly benefiting from slavery here in the US? 01:03:24.590 --> 01:03:30.050 It's hard to identify those who did not benefit. 01:03:31.550 --> 01:03:37.670 I mean, our whole economy benefited from having 01:03:37.670 --> 01:03:42.050 an enslaved workforce that you didn't pay. The 01:03:42.050 --> 01:03:46.690 northern mills in Massachusetts, New York, and 01:03:46.690 --> 01:03:50.369 Connecticut, etc., were weaving cloth out of 01:03:50.369 --> 01:03:52.510 the cotton that was being grown in the South. 01:03:53.119 --> 01:03:55.980 You know, why is the United States the economic 01:03:55.980 --> 01:03:59.760 powerhouse that it is today? You've got to go 01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:03.739 back to slavery. And, I mean, yes, there were 01:04:03.739 --> 01:04:07.139 a tremendous number of individuals who were not 01:04:07.139 --> 01:04:11.719 slaves, largely the white population who were 01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:15.559 struggling, you know, to open up the West, farmers, 01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:25.610 you know, just scraping to get by. But the dollars 01:04:25.610 --> 01:04:33.030 that really contributed to the Gilded Age industrialization 01:04:33.030 --> 01:04:36.449 in this country wouldn't have happened without 01:04:36.449 --> 01:04:39.170 slavery. Yeah. Yeah, this is so interesting. 01:04:39.269 --> 01:04:41.010 I mean, whether it was knowingly or unknowingly, 01:04:41.070 --> 01:04:43.849 it still had that ripple effect. It did. It did. 01:04:44.010 --> 01:04:46.719 Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you for that perspective. 01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:49.519 I'm definitely going to get the book. Well, before 01:04:49.519 --> 01:04:52.320 we get to a documentary or film that you recommend, 01:04:52.460 --> 01:04:55.099 let's talk about your film for a moment. So Skid 01:04:55.099 --> 01:04:57.480 Row Marathon is the name of the documentary. 01:04:57.699 --> 01:05:01.320 So where can people find that? It is on Amazon. 01:05:02.500 --> 01:05:06.559 Okay. And my understanding is it is completely 01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:09.480 free of charge. Brilliant. Yeah, I think it was 01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:12.360 on Prime when I watched it. Okay. Next question. 01:05:13.070 --> 01:05:15.190 Is there a person you'd recommend to come on 01:05:15.190 --> 01:05:17.829 this podcast as a guest to speak to the first 01:05:17.829 --> 01:05:19.849 responders, military and associated professions 01:05:19.849 --> 01:05:23.690 of the world? I would recommend several people 01:05:23.690 --> 01:05:26.969 in my running program who I think could offer 01:05:26.969 --> 01:05:32.750 a largely ignored perspective. Well, I would 01:05:32.750 --> 01:05:35.130 love to have any one of them. So please feel 01:05:35.130 --> 01:05:38.090 free to pass on the information. Ben Shirley 01:05:38.090 --> 01:05:45.300 is very articulate. Mario Ocampo speaks from 01:05:45.300 --> 01:05:50.280 the heart and has an incredible life story and 01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:56.280 journey to share. Addiction, incarceration, and 01:05:56.280 --> 01:06:00.480 rebirth. Beautiful. Well, that's the thing. I 01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:03.280 mean, this is just to basically... bring, whether 01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:06.179 it's mental health and physical health solutions 01:06:06.179 --> 01:06:08.219 from professionals, whether it's just incredible 01:06:08.219 --> 01:06:11.079 life stories. I mean, this is it. This is smashing 01:06:11.079 --> 01:06:13.940 through that facade that we sadly see a door 01:06:13.940 --> 01:06:16.239 on our screens a lot and get the real human story. 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:18.380 So I would love to get both of them. Thank you. 01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:25.579 And both of them would be inclined to do a podcast 01:06:25.579 --> 01:06:28.420 with you. Beautiful. Ben would be a little bit 01:06:28.420 --> 01:06:32.699 more reluctant. tell them to talk to me but yeah 01:06:32.699 --> 01:06:37.480 okay fantastic well thank you all right well 01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:39.579 then the the last question before we make sure 01:06:39.579 --> 01:06:42.199 people know how to find the running club find 01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:46.260 you what do you do to decompress i take a run 01:06:46.260 --> 01:06:50.119 i thought you're gonna say that okay i mean oftentimes 01:06:50.119 --> 01:06:52.380 when i'm in court you know there'll be some big 01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:55.420 legal issue or i have to decide usually it has 01:06:55.420 --> 01:06:57.900 to do with sentencing What am I going to do with 01:06:57.900 --> 01:07:00.219 somebody? He's been found guilty. He's pled guilty. 01:07:00.860 --> 01:07:04.780 OK, do I give him a second chance? Do I send 01:07:04.780 --> 01:07:07.579 him to prison? And I said, you know, I can make 01:07:07.579 --> 01:07:10.000 a I can make a call right now, counsel, if you 01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:12.719 want me to. But if you'll put it over for about 01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:17.119 a week, I'll take a good long run and spend some 01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:19.639 really quality time thinking about what I think 01:07:19.639 --> 01:07:22.880 is best for your client. And invariably, the 01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:25.860 lawyer will say, Judge Mitchell, go take your 01:07:25.860 --> 01:07:28.809 run. Beautiful. With that, just as a tangent, 01:07:28.969 --> 01:07:31.449 you talked about your childhood and obviously 01:07:31.449 --> 01:07:34.829 there was some trauma there. Did you find the 01:07:34.829 --> 01:07:37.590 element of catharsis yourself once you started 01:07:37.590 --> 01:07:39.630 running and really kind of got that runner's 01:07:39.630 --> 01:07:47.010 high and really fall in love with running? I 01:07:47.010 --> 01:07:52.409 didn't really finally come to terms with my childhood 01:07:52.409 --> 01:07:55.820 trauma, if you will. during running. No, I mean, 01:07:55.880 --> 01:08:00.219 you know, life has enough trauma on a day -to 01:08:00.219 --> 01:08:03.679 -day basis. You know, I raised two sons and a 01:08:03.679 --> 01:08:06.599 daughter. I've been married for over 30 years. 01:08:06.820 --> 01:08:09.800 You know, I've got plenty on my plate dealing 01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:12.559 with issues that are front and center, you know, 01:08:12.559 --> 01:08:19.479 2021 without dredging up my childhood past. You 01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:22.439 know, why is it my kid underachieving in school? 01:08:23.340 --> 01:08:26.640 You know, why is my daughter involved in a relationship 01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:30.079 that I don't think is positive? Why is my wife 01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:32.840 on my case about this subject when it really 01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:37.960 isn't something that I can resolve for her? I 01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:40.520 mean, those are the things that get me out on 01:08:40.520 --> 01:08:43.060 the street. And, you know, I'm not running with 01:08:43.060 --> 01:08:46.460 music. You know, I'm just reflecting. And the 01:08:46.460 --> 01:08:48.520 great thing is, you know, by the time I finally 01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:52.319 run back up the driveway and go into the house. 01:08:52.989 --> 01:08:55.649 You know, things are far more sorted out in my 01:08:55.649 --> 01:08:59.850 life. Beautiful. No, I mean, it makes perfect 01:08:59.850 --> 01:09:01.569 sense. And I've actually, you know, done that 01:09:01.569 --> 01:09:03.770 myself where it's actually been anger. You know, 01:09:03.810 --> 01:09:05.670 I've been frustrated and angry. And it's hard 01:09:05.670 --> 01:09:08.050 to be angry after you've run for a certain amount 01:09:08.050 --> 01:09:09.569 of time, especially, you know, that particular 01:09:09.569 --> 01:09:11.970 case. And what was the source of that anger just 01:09:11.970 --> 01:09:15.010 doesn't quite seem quite as important at the 01:09:15.010 --> 01:09:18.409 end of the long run. Absolutely. You know, your 01:09:18.409 --> 01:09:21.479 perspective. Okay, yes, this happened that made 01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:25.500 me angry at this brief point in time. Okay, let 01:09:25.500 --> 01:09:30.579 me step back. Okay, there's a lot of good things 01:09:30.579 --> 01:09:34.920 going on in my life. Absolutely. Beautiful. Well, 01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:37.119 if people want to learn more about the club, 01:09:37.220 --> 01:09:38.800 if they want to donate, because obviously, as 01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:41.100 you mentioned, you do travel around the world 01:09:41.100 --> 01:09:43.680 and that obviously takes your funding as well. 01:09:43.760 --> 01:09:45.579 Where are the best places for people to do that? 01:09:46.060 --> 01:09:49.560 The SASAS is on the web at Skid Row Running Club. 01:09:49.979 --> 01:09:52.159 Brilliant. And then you guys are on social media 01:09:52.159 --> 01:09:57.340 as well. Yes, which I have never seen. All right. 01:09:57.359 --> 01:09:58.560 Well, I know you're on Instagram because that's 01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:00.539 how I originally found you. So for people listening. 01:10:01.180 --> 01:10:03.180 Well, Judge Mitchell, I just want to say thank 01:10:03.180 --> 01:10:06.920 you so much. I mean, to speak to you full stop 01:10:06.920 --> 01:10:09.100 is incredible. But having watched the film and 01:10:09.100 --> 01:10:11.539 seeing what you've done, aside from your own 01:10:11.539 --> 01:10:14.479 personal journey through into the law profession. 01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:17.619 It's absolutely incredible and inspiring. And 01:10:17.619 --> 01:10:19.979 your perspective is so unique and so valuable. 01:10:20.159 --> 01:10:22.859 So thank you so much for being so generous today. 01:10:23.180 --> 01:10:26.399 What I want to leave, you know, in light of what 01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:31.119 you just said, one of the takeaways that I hope 01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:35.859 people get from the movie, you know, I am not 01:10:35.859 --> 01:10:39.600 a great runner. OK, I've had people, much better 01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:41.960 runners, look at my form and say, oh, my God, 01:10:42.020 --> 01:10:43.979 you're doing this wrong. You're doing that wrong. 01:10:45.979 --> 01:10:50.140 You know, I don't even think I have an inordinate 01:10:50.140 --> 01:10:54.619 amount of wisdom to impart. But you don't need 01:10:54.619 --> 01:10:57.680 those things to make a significant difference 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:01.819 in your community. Okay. You simply need to make 01:11:01.819 --> 01:11:05.039 a commitment of yourself. And if you're not a 01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:09.220 runner, you know, but you like working with senior 01:11:09.220 --> 01:11:12.119 citizens, you know, go to the local convalescent 01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:16.000 home. Befriend some of the people who are never 01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:20.680 visited by their family. You know, you like working 01:11:20.680 --> 01:11:23.399 with young people, find your local elementary 01:11:23.399 --> 01:11:26.840 school or your local Y and see what kind of reading 01:11:26.840 --> 01:11:31.859 program you can volunteer at. You know, if all 01:11:31.859 --> 01:11:37.300 of us would say, okay, 20 % of my free time, 01:11:37.500 --> 01:11:41.399 I'm going to spend doing something to benefit 01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:45.409 the larger community. You know, this country, 01:11:45.510 --> 01:11:49.430 this world would be radically different. Okay. 01:11:50.149 --> 01:11:53.090 It humors me at times when people, oh, Judge 01:11:53.090 --> 01:11:56.069 Mitchell, you know, you're such a wonderful person. 01:11:56.250 --> 01:12:01.050 No, I'm not. Okay. I simply made a commitment 01:12:01.050 --> 01:12:05.210 of my time and energy, which most of us are able 01:12:05.210 --> 01:12:07.930 to do. You know, you asked me what movie I've 01:12:07.930 --> 01:12:11.529 seen. Don't ask me what's going on with the Dodgers 01:12:11.529 --> 01:12:15.930 or the Lakers or what. is on TV. I'm clueless 01:12:15.930 --> 01:12:21.130 because my free time is not spent focusing on 01:12:21.130 --> 01:12:25.689 those things. I remember Mike Royko, the columnist 01:12:25.689 --> 01:12:27.909 for the Chicago paper. You're familiar with him? 01:12:28.090 --> 01:12:31.189 No, sir. Okay. Well, he was a famous columnist 01:12:31.189 --> 01:12:34.310 when I was growing up, I believe, for the Chicago 01:12:34.310 --> 01:12:40.399 Tribune. And at the end of his life, He lamented 01:12:40.399 --> 01:12:43.739 the fact that he had not spent more time with 01:12:43.739 --> 01:12:47.119 his wife. And if he had to do it all over again, 01:12:47.260 --> 01:12:52.220 he wouldn't have watched as much sports. And 01:12:52.220 --> 01:12:53.739 that always stuck with me.