WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.180 This episode is sponsored by NuCalm, and as 00:00:02.180 --> 00:00:04.459 many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto 00:00:04.459 --> 00:00:08.480 this show whose products I truly swear by. Now, 00:00:08.500 --> 00:00:11.019 we are an overworked and underslept population, 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.000 especially those of us that wear uniform for 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.059 a living, and trying to reclaim some of the lost 00:00:17.059 --> 00:00:20.679 rest and recovery is imperative. Now, the application 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:23.260 of this product is as simple as putting on headphones 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:26.640 and a sleep mask. As you listen to music on each 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.260 of the programs, there is neuroacoustic software 00:00:29.260 --> 00:00:33.259 beneath that is tapping into the actual frequencies 00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:36.640 of your brain, whether to upregulate your nervous 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.140 system or downregulate. Now, for most of us that 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:43.119 come off shift, we are A, exhausted, and B, do 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:45.539 not want to bring what we've had to see and do 00:00:45.539 --> 00:00:48.920 back home to our loved ones. So one powerful 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:52.469 application is using the program PowerNap. a 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:55.149 20 -minute session that will not only feel like 00:00:55.149 --> 00:00:58.310 you've had two hours of sleep, but also down 00:00:58.310 --> 00:01:01.409 -regulate from a hypervigilant state back into 00:01:01.409 --> 00:01:04.450 the role of mother or father, husband or wife. 00:01:04.730 --> 00:01:07.769 Now, there are so many other applications and 00:01:07.769 --> 00:01:10.250 benefits from this software, so I urge you to 00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:15.629 go and listen to episode 806 with CEO Jim Poole. 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:20.140 Then download NuCalm, N -U -C -A -L -M, from 00:01:20.140 --> 00:01:23.040 your app store and sign up for the seven -day 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.420 free trial. Not only will you have an understanding 00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:29.480 of the origin story and the four decades this 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:32.519 science has spanned, but also see for yourself 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:36.260 the incredible health impact of this life -changing 00:01:36.260 --> 00:01:39.459 software. And you can find even more information 00:01:39.459 --> 00:01:43.969 on NuCalm .com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield 00:01:43.969 --> 00:01:46.049 podcast. As always, my name is James Geering, 00:01:46.069 --> 00:01:48.030 and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome 00:01:48.030 --> 00:01:51.730 on the show 25 -year veteran of the U .S. Secret 00:01:51.730 --> 00:01:54.510 Service and the author of Tell Me Everything, 00:01:54.969 --> 00:01:58.310 Brad Beeler. Now, in this conversation, we discuss 00:01:58.310 --> 00:02:01.489 a host of topics from his journey into the Secret 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:06.049 Service, protecting George H .W. Bush, lessons 00:02:06.049 --> 00:02:09.449 learned from Butler, the truths and myths around 00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:12.919 polygraphs, a cautionary tale for law enforcement 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.960 interrogation, crimes against children, Brad's 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:19.900 own powerful mental health story, the takeaways 00:02:19.900 --> 00:02:23.419 from his book, and so much more. Now, before 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:25.560 we get to this incredible conversation, as I 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.879 say every week, please just take a moment. Go 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.400 to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.960 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.840 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:41.539 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:02:41.539 --> 00:02:45.139 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:02:45.139 --> 00:02:49.879 almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.000 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.300 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:02:56.300 --> 00:02:59.259 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:04.120 So with that being said, I introduce to you Brad 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:26.919 Beeler. Enjoy. Well, Brad, I want to start by 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:29.400 saying thank you so much for taking the time 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:31.620 and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today. 00:03:32.579 --> 00:03:34.300 James, I appreciate the opportunity to come here 00:03:34.300 --> 00:03:37.199 and talk to your wonderful listeners. So where 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:39.280 on planet Earth are we finding you on this beautiful 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.719 winter's day? South Carolina. And it's starting 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:44.080 to feel a little bit more like winter. We've 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:46.259 been spoiled for a long period of time this winter, 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:49.120 but they're calling for snow. So the state is 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.300 about to shut down, literally shut down. They'll 00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:54.300 just cancel everything. So I prefer this to where 00:03:54.300 --> 00:03:57.740 Chicago winters. I didn't really get used to 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:00.389 that. I like this. It's funny because whenever 00:04:00.389 --> 00:04:04.370 you get an unusual weather, it's really interesting 00:04:04.370 --> 00:04:06.870 watching the response. When I moved from Florida 00:04:06.870 --> 00:04:09.590 to California, when they had even a tiniest bit 00:04:09.590 --> 00:04:11.810 of rain, you'd think it was, you know, a typhoon. 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:14.250 And obviously I get the whole landslide element. 00:04:14.349 --> 00:04:17.029 But yeah, and then obviously here when we get 00:04:17.029 --> 00:04:19.089 cold, you know, people freak out too when it's 00:04:19.089 --> 00:04:20.990 actually gorgeous outside. It's still sunny. 00:04:21.110 --> 00:04:24.370 So yeah, we're all great in some weathers and 00:04:24.370 --> 00:04:25.910 awful in others, depending on where we live. 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:28.839 Well, let's start at the very beginning of your 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.000 timeline then. So tell me where you were born 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.860 and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:36.439 what your parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:38.819 I grew up a small town in Missouri, about an 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:42.319 hour west of St. Louis. My parents were, my dad 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:44.480 was a math professor for about 50 years, was 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.220 an author as well. And my mom was a legal secretary. 00:04:48.189 --> 00:04:51.430 And I had three wonderful sisters, all athletes, 00:04:51.550 --> 00:04:54.129 kind of an athletic family, and kind of grew 00:04:54.129 --> 00:04:56.410 up where I kind of got the bug for law enforcement. 00:04:56.490 --> 00:04:58.189 I think I grew up watching Chips, and that's 00:04:58.189 --> 00:05:00.009 obviously dating myself. A lot of your listeners, 00:05:00.170 --> 00:05:02.870 what's Chips? Who's Poncherello? Who's John Baker? 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:06.170 But I kind of grew up watching that on a daily 00:05:06.170 --> 00:05:09.089 basis and kind of, I think, thought, hey, I want 00:05:09.089 --> 00:05:11.569 to be the person with the white hat. Went to 00:05:11.569 --> 00:05:14.529 undergrad and graduate school for criminology 00:05:14.529 --> 00:05:16.790 at University of Missouri -St. Louis. Played 00:05:16.790 --> 00:05:19.410 soccer there and did an internship with the Secret 00:05:19.410 --> 00:05:20.750 Service. And it was one of those things that 00:05:20.750 --> 00:05:24.009 was really eye -opening for me to see, you know, 00:05:24.009 --> 00:05:27.620 hey. These are really good men and women, morally 00:05:27.620 --> 00:05:30.860 sound people that travel throughout the world 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:32.420 trying to support the interests of the United 00:05:32.420 --> 00:05:34.899 States and suppress counterfeiting, suppress 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:37.439 financial crimes. A lot of people don't know 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.759 about that dual mission and then obviously the 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.740 protection aspect. So that really kind of set 00:05:42.740 --> 00:05:45.339 me in. And after a couple of years in juvenile 00:05:45.339 --> 00:05:48.120 justice, I was fortunate enough to get with the 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.360 Secret Service, start in Chicago and be assigned 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:52.839 to the counterfeit division within the Chicago 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:55.920 field office. What did your parents do profession 00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:00.100 -wise? Yeah, so my dad was in mathematics. So 00:06:00.100 --> 00:06:02.759 he taught mathematics for an extremely long period 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:06.319 of time at the college level. And my mom, she 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:09.879 was a teacher as well and also in the legal profession. 00:06:11.069 --> 00:06:12.990 Public service was really, really big to them. 00:06:13.050 --> 00:06:15.370 I think that's how they instilled it into all 00:06:15.370 --> 00:06:17.009 their children. And we've all kind of followed 00:06:17.009 --> 00:06:19.490 suit and kind of kept in that public service 00:06:19.490 --> 00:06:22.829 vein, so to speak. So, you know, you follow your 00:06:22.829 --> 00:06:24.689 parents' footsteps for sure in the example that 00:06:24.689 --> 00:06:27.810 they set. This is a very random question, and 00:06:27.810 --> 00:06:29.649 you may not have had this conversation with your 00:06:29.649 --> 00:06:32.430 dad, but one of the criticisms I have of higher 00:06:32.430 --> 00:06:36.310 education is when people are required to do prerequisites 00:06:36.310 --> 00:06:39.050 that really don't pertain to the ultimate goal. 00:06:39.250 --> 00:06:42.250 And math, sadly, is usually one of those scapegoats. 00:06:42.449 --> 00:06:44.529 Did you ever have that conversation with him 00:06:44.529 --> 00:06:48.089 as far as the application of his particular subject 00:06:48.089 --> 00:06:50.649 in areas where it just wasn't needed at that 00:06:50.649 --> 00:06:53.310 high level? The interesting part about it was 00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:56.189 in college, I used his textbook. So that was 00:06:56.189 --> 00:06:58.329 a lot of pressure when you're using your dad's 00:06:58.329 --> 00:07:02.310 textbook in college. But his math genius definitely 00:07:02.310 --> 00:07:04.709 skipped a generation, maybe two generations if 00:07:04.709 --> 00:07:07.589 you ask my son. So I didn't get it. But what 00:07:07.589 --> 00:07:09.629 he would always say is he goes, the ability to 00:07:09.629 --> 00:07:11.970 have that complex thought, you know, he goes, 00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:13.449 it's one thing if you got to take a philosophy 00:07:13.449 --> 00:07:15.850 class. And I personally, I think philosophy is 00:07:15.850 --> 00:07:17.949 great. But, you know, if you got to take certain 00:07:17.949 --> 00:07:20.850 prerequisites that don't have a real world experience. 00:07:21.259 --> 00:07:23.459 That's one thing. But the way he would equate 00:07:23.459 --> 00:07:25.439 it to is he goes, you take those math classes 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.360 so you could figure out a tip. So you could do 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.839 this. You could you could calculate things quickly. 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:33.519 And you don't realize how many times you do use 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:37.040 basic mathematics on a daily basis. My problem 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:38.680 is, well, when you start throwing in letters 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:40.680 and all these other things into the math, it's 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:42.980 not really math anymore. So I agree to disagree 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:45.740 with that. But I think basic mathematics, I think, 00:07:45.740 --> 00:07:47.959 definitely has its use. But there's other things 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:49.339 that I would agree with you we need to get away 00:07:49.339 --> 00:07:51.500 from. I think my son, he's at the Citadel now. 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:53.639 And this semester, I think he's got kayaking 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:56.100 and he's got something else. It's hard to pay 00:07:56.100 --> 00:07:58.019 that bill for kayaking and a couple other things. 00:07:59.709 --> 00:08:01.689 My wife just graduated med school and she had 00:08:01.689 --> 00:08:04.670 to go all the way up to calculus, but she still 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:06.889 struggles with the tips and what I call the street 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:08.970 math. I'm good at the street math, but the complex 00:08:08.970 --> 00:08:11.329 algebra, I am completely lost. It's like alphabet 00:08:11.329 --> 00:08:15.029 soup to me. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you mentioned 00:08:15.029 --> 00:08:18.050 soccer, football. Talk to me about the sports 00:08:18.050 --> 00:08:19.670 that you were playing and then what level you 00:08:19.670 --> 00:08:22.980 got to with that particular sport. Yeah, I played 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:26.319 through college. I don't think I sat two years, 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.540 so I wasn't the greatest player. I was a goalkeeper, 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:33.879 which I think it had its benefits because I just 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.720 like communication. You want to listen more than 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.700 you talk. I think for me and the soccer pitch, 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.340 I got to watch more than I got to do. And you 00:08:41.340 --> 00:08:45.399 had that situational trauma where 99 % of the 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.610 time. You know, if you don't do anything wrong, 00:08:47.809 --> 00:08:50.429 everything's good. But if you make that one mistake, 00:08:50.570 --> 00:08:53.110 it can cost you the game. And, you know, unfortunately, 00:08:53.230 --> 00:08:54.629 it's the same way with the Secret Service. We 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:58.029 do 100 ,000 protective missions. And then you 00:08:58.029 --> 00:09:00.169 have something like Butler, which, you know, 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:02.169 happens and is a huge failure. And that's what 00:09:02.169 --> 00:09:04.889 people remember. So it just goes to show you 00:09:04.889 --> 00:09:07.370 that you can, you have to, it's a zero fail mission 00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:10.149 in law enforcement. You have to be perfect every 00:09:10.149 --> 00:09:12.929 day. And I think that's the same thing with goalkeeping 00:09:12.929 --> 00:09:15.649 on the pitch. But I really loved it. It was really, 00:09:15.750 --> 00:09:18.929 for me, a way to get away from the school and 00:09:18.929 --> 00:09:21.490 stay in fitness. And it also paid some of the 00:09:21.490 --> 00:09:23.509 college bills. So that was great. And parents 00:09:23.509 --> 00:09:27.350 loved that. Have you seen the show Welcome to 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:31.179 Wrexham? Yeah, absolutely. I just started watching 00:09:31.179 --> 00:09:34.779 it and was so blown away how well it was done 00:09:34.779 --> 00:09:37.360 because it could have been a narcissistic project 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:40.500 for Ryan and Rob, you know, the American actors 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:43.779 that bought the club. But the human stories that 00:09:43.779 --> 00:09:46.240 it tells is phenomenal. And I have to say, as 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:50.919 an Englishman, honestly, it educated me on what 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.120 football is supposed to be about. Because, you 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.200 know, as I got older, it was Liverpool, Man U, 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:57.419 and it was about money and trades and all these 00:09:57.419 --> 00:09:59.000 people from all these different countries playing. 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:03.299 But when you see a game at that level and the 00:10:03.299 --> 00:10:05.639 impact that that had on the people of the community 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:08.580 that are working their ass off five, six days 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:11.120 a week, and that's their time to decompress, 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.539 it literally reframed the sport for me, and I'm 00:10:14.539 --> 00:10:17.320 literally from that country. Yeah, and I think 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:18.860 you're right. I think it did that for a lot of 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:22.340 people. We always had the issue in America of, 00:10:22.340 --> 00:10:24.960 you know, a lot of the athletes early on would 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.120 go to football, baseball, other things like that. 00:10:27.299 --> 00:10:29.320 I mean, can you imagine Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, 00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:31.500 people like that if they grew up in England and 00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:35.639 the main sport was football? football, soccer 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:37.899 as we call it here on this side of the pond. 00:10:38.019 --> 00:10:40.360 But you can imagine having those elite athletes, 00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:43.019 what American soccer would be, what it could 00:10:43.019 --> 00:10:45.620 potentially be. So it's always been like that. 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:47.799 St. Louis, where I grew up, was kind of a hotbed. 00:10:47.940 --> 00:10:50.559 I think we had five or six people on the 1950 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.240 World Cup that actually beat, I want to say they 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:55.700 beat England in 1950, which was one of the biggest 00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:58.340 upsets of all time. So it was always a hotbed. 00:10:58.779 --> 00:11:01.980 And so I was blessed to take part of that. For 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:04.039 me, the highest level I got was Division II, 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.220 and the levels between junior college, Division 00:11:07.220 --> 00:11:10.779 II, Division I, and then obviously you get into 00:11:10.779 --> 00:11:12.519 developmental stuff. There's just so many levels 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:16.080 to soccer that blow you away. So to go from fifth 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:17.779 division or fourth division, whatever Wrexham 00:11:17.779 --> 00:11:19.460 is, and then now they just beat a Premier League 00:11:19.460 --> 00:11:23.080 team, that truly is rags to riches, so to speak. 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:26.899 It is amazing. And one of the episodes, I'm just 00:11:26.899 --> 00:11:30.299 in season two now, the father of the goalkeeper. 00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:33.429 was a British policeman that got into the same 00:11:33.429 --> 00:11:35.190 position as you, basically protecting the royal 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:38.570 family. And you see his estranged mother and 00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:41.029 the father talking at first. And then it's revealed 00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:43.850 that the father left his wife for another man. 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:46.580 And it was it was so beautiful because they underline 00:11:46.580 --> 00:11:49.039 the fact that, you know, when we were young, 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:51.179 that was still frowned upon. And the dad actually 00:11:51.179 --> 00:11:53.620 joked that when he told his father, the father 00:11:53.620 --> 00:11:55.299 said, well, we'll go to the doctor. Can you get 00:11:55.299 --> 00:11:58.659 a pill for that for being gay? And now and they 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:00.679 made the comment that if people watching the 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.220 show that are younger now, they probably can't 00:12:03.220 --> 00:12:05.980 even wrap their head around. an environment where 00:12:05.980 --> 00:12:07.960 it wasn't acceptable to be gay anymore so that 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:10.600 was kind of also the the metamorphosis again 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.539 of where we are today there's some things i would 00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:14.740 argue that are worse you know i think we're in 00:12:14.740 --> 00:12:17.440 a very divisive uh environment at the moment 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.039 but the fact that something that people had to 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.779 hide 50 years ago now is completely normalized 00:12:22.779 --> 00:12:25.179 it was another one of those kind of human aha 00:12:25.179 --> 00:12:28.360 moments from that show Yeah, the internet has 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.279 definitely changed that where if you go back, 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:32.559 you know, 50, 60 years, you didn't even see people 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.600 kissing on TV. You know, if you go back to that, 00:12:35.620 --> 00:12:38.220 that was taboo to see that. And obviously things 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:40.000 have changed quite a bit. I think one of the 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:41.659 things that I really enjoyed about the Secret 00:12:41.659 --> 00:12:43.879 Service was just seeing people are people and 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:45.820 cultures are cultures. Every year at the United 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.919 Nations General Assembly, typically 150 to 200 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:52.259 heads of state come into New York. And the Secret 00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:54.039 Service, we protect the head of state for whatever 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:57.700 country comes in. And for 17 years in a row, 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:00.600 I missed my wedding anniversary because I would 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.899 always be up in New York. But those were 17 years 00:13:02.899 --> 00:13:05.500 where I got to see. people from all over the 00:13:05.500 --> 00:13:07.139 world. I got to see their protective details. 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.299 I got to see their staff. I got to see their 00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:12.340 way of life, eat their food. And it just lets 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:15.279 you see that people are people. And it was very 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:17.539 eye -opening for me to see how big this world 00:13:17.539 --> 00:13:20.820 is. And I think it helped me kind of have better 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:24.649 empathy on the job as well. Because you grow 00:13:24.649 --> 00:13:26.110 up in certain parts of the country, you only 00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:28.830 see certain things. It's really easy to get a 00:13:28.830 --> 00:13:32.789 tunnel vision as to your thought processes. So 00:13:32.789 --> 00:13:35.190 I think that's one of the things that truly helps 00:13:35.190 --> 00:13:37.049 the Secret Service do its mission is we protect 00:13:37.049 --> 00:13:39.570 Republicans, Democrats, independents, and then 00:13:39.570 --> 00:13:41.730 also all kinds of foreign heads of state. So 00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:44.450 definitely a force multiplier in our mission. 00:13:45.269 --> 00:13:48.279 Absolutely. I think that's what's needed. We 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:49.980 need people that pull people together, that show 00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:52.519 that shared humanity and celebrate the differences. 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:54.899 You know, rather than if you don't do exactly 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:57.100 what I do, then you are the enemy, which I think 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:00.340 has been shouted from the rooftops more recently. 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.480 What about the protective details? What were 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:07.059 some of the other nations, bodyguards, Secret 00:14:07.059 --> 00:14:09.639 Service parallels that you were really impressed 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:12.740 with? You know, I had, I mean, obviously I had 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:14.879 some great stories. I know you obviously do long 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:17.059 form, so maybe we can get into a couple of those, 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:19.960 but just fascinating. One, you would typically, 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.440 if we went overseas, we would typically have 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.039 a day or two on the ground because they would 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:27.740 want to get the vehicles there ahead of time 00:14:27.740 --> 00:14:29.679 and get set up ahead of time. So we would usually 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:33.059 jump on the C -17 and fly ahead of the protectee, 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:34.340 whether it be the president, vice president. 00:14:35.139 --> 00:14:37.379 So you would get to see the culture a little 00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:40.409 bit as much as you could. And so since we only 00:14:40.409 --> 00:14:41.970 had a day or two, we would get out there and 00:14:41.970 --> 00:14:45.330 try to go see the Taj Mahal or the Great Wall 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:48.049 or wherever we were at. So it was really, you 00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:49.590 know, once again, as a kid growing up in a very, 00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:52.129 very small town, it was wonderful to see that. 00:14:52.350 --> 00:14:54.250 And then just to see how they did their protection, 00:14:54.429 --> 00:14:56.629 how they did their even hiring of how they brought 00:14:56.629 --> 00:15:01.330 people on. I remember being in a stairwell in 00:15:01.330 --> 00:15:04.149 Tokyo and for three days, this isn't in the recruiting 00:15:04.149 --> 00:15:06.470 brochure, you know, it's a lot less running next 00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:08.570 to the limo and it's a lot more standing next 00:15:08.570 --> 00:15:11.549 to a dumpster, you know, in the Secret Service. 00:15:11.730 --> 00:15:15.009 But as far as I was in Tokyo, we're in a stairwell. 00:15:16.110 --> 00:15:17.970 Stairwells aren't climate controlled, so you're 00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.350 either burning up or freezing. But I've got this 00:15:20.350 --> 00:15:22.470 amazing Japanese counterpart from their Secret 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:25.669 Service and he was actually from Hiroshima. which 00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:27.350 if you think about it, you know, just 70 years 00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:29.370 prior, we're dropping an atomic bomb on that 00:15:29.370 --> 00:15:31.809 city and now people are living there and we're 00:15:31.809 --> 00:15:34.610 mortal enemies for a five -year stretch of time. 00:15:34.710 --> 00:15:38.350 And now we were using, you know, I don't know 00:15:38.350 --> 00:15:39.750 if it was Google Translate or one of the other 00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:41.450 apps to kind of go back and forth. And we just 00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:43.889 had the most amazing conversations. And he would 00:15:43.889 --> 00:15:45.990 bring in desserts every day that his wife made. 00:15:47.809 --> 00:15:50.330 And I'm telling him about American barbecue and 00:15:50.330 --> 00:15:54.590 his kids were into K -pop, but they loved, it 00:15:54.590 --> 00:15:56.750 wasn't NSYNC, but whoever the boy band was at 00:15:56.750 --> 00:15:59.809 the time. And it was just amazing to have that 00:15:59.809 --> 00:16:02.330 conversation. And at the end, I remember I took 00:16:02.330 --> 00:16:05.649 a little pen off, a little American pen and gave 00:16:05.649 --> 00:16:06.990 it to him. It was a Secret Service pen. It was 00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:09.590 about $1 .50 if you buy them in bulk. And I gave 00:16:09.590 --> 00:16:10.929 it to him and I presented it to him and there 00:16:10.929 --> 00:16:14.929 was no ulterior motives. And literally, he took 00:16:14.929 --> 00:16:18.029 off his cufflinks that his father had given him 00:16:18.029 --> 00:16:19.929 for his equivalent of his high school graduation, 00:16:20.169 --> 00:16:23.230 and he presented them to me. And I was shocked. 00:16:23.330 --> 00:16:25.389 I was, one, appalled because, oh, no, no, no, 00:16:25.389 --> 00:16:28.690 please don't do that. And he was shocked that 00:16:28.690 --> 00:16:30.669 I would say that because he's like, no, you gave 00:16:30.669 --> 00:16:34.570 me something. You made my heart full by doing 00:16:34.570 --> 00:16:37.029 this. Thank you. Please appreciate this. Wear 00:16:37.029 --> 00:16:39.330 this with your suits around the world and tell 00:16:39.330 --> 00:16:42.960 people the story and so on and so forth. You 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.100 know, not a month later, I'm on the Iranian detail 00:16:46.100 --> 00:16:48.360 when they came into the United Nations and it's 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.620 Ahmadinejad's first trip to the United States. 00:16:51.379 --> 00:16:55.519 And you have these beliefs about people, right? 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.840 So the Iranians come in and their kit was phenomenal. 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:01.659 Their training was phenomenal. Their personnel, 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:03.139 their training standards, you could tell were 00:17:03.139 --> 00:17:05.859 up to par. They looked the part, you know, shoes 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:10.079 were shined. Everything was up to par and they 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.160 were always on time. And they kept us informed, 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:14.119 which is, as you know, in the emergency services, 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.740 man, communication is everything. And it was 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:19.480 great. And at the end, I took that pen off and 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:20.980 I gave it to their detail leader and he took 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:24.940 off his Iranian serial numbered color of the 00:17:24.940 --> 00:17:27.200 day protection pen and gave it to me. And it 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.799 just goes to show you, people are people. The 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:31.960 media pulls us away and this, that, and the other, 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:33.480 and you get in your little echo chambers. But 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.079 of all the world leaders, of all the protectees 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.309 that I was able to be around, They were all great. 00:17:40.430 --> 00:17:42.690 They all treated me and my family wonderfully. 00:17:42.910 --> 00:17:45.369 I spent most of my time with H .W. Bush, so we 00:17:45.369 --> 00:17:48.529 would split time between Houston and Maine. It 00:17:48.529 --> 00:17:53.410 was great. They looked out for you. They wanted 00:17:53.410 --> 00:17:55.349 to make sure that you were fed. They didn't travel 00:17:55.349 --> 00:17:58.809 on Christmas Day because they wanted the agents 00:17:58.809 --> 00:18:00.950 to be with their family members on that day. 00:18:01.369 --> 00:18:03.109 So they would actually travel on the 26th or 00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:06.130 the 27th. And you just appreciate that so much 00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:08.769 because of the amount of travel that you're doing. 00:18:08.849 --> 00:18:11.789 So those are some of the takeaways I got from 00:18:11.789 --> 00:18:15.569 protection was you're not part of the event. 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:19.289 You're just a fly on the wall. But because they're 00:18:19.289 --> 00:18:23.750 important people, you get to see Michael Phelps 00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:26.910 win a gold medal. You get to see these amazing 00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:29.329 moments in time. You get to see these peace accords. 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.319 These things on TV that you're right there. And 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.259 hopefully no one ever sees you and you don't 00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:38.980 have to react because that means something bad 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:42.400 unfortunately happened. I'm jumping ahead in 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.680 a way because I want to get your 2026 perspective 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:46.980 on this, but it just seems to fit after the couple 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:51.539 of stories that you told. working with a group 00:18:51.539 --> 00:18:53.240 of men and women that are protecting, like you 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.519 said, Democrats and Republicans and independents, 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.420 so arguably Americans, some of whom I'm sure 00:18:59.420 --> 00:19:01.980 were probably more fun to work with than others. 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:04.240 And that's something that I'm not even going 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.980 to ask you. But with this interesting lens of 00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:10.920 being really immersed in all these different 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:12.859 cultures, from the leaders themselves to the 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:14.480 men and women that are protecting them, as you 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:18.819 said, if you were king for a day, How do we come 00:19:18.819 --> 00:19:21.980 back to seeing each other with that shared humanity, 00:19:22.180 --> 00:19:24.920 this group of humans that are sharing this round 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.920 rock that's hurtling through space, rather than 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:32.359 this increasingly divisive kind of rhetoric that 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:35.220 we're seeing where we're kind of almost fueling 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:38.599 the fire for yet another conflict? Yeah, it's, 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:40.500 you know, in a perfect world, if I'm king for 00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:42.799 a day, I kill the algorithm, right? I kill the 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:46.319 bots. I kill the echo chamber that... takes us 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:50.339 over because from consuming your kids and making 00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:52.519 them want the latest this tick tock whatever 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.640 the case may be to targeted violence where people 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.440 go down a rabbit hole and they keep going down 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:00.720 to a rabbit hole until that violence is directed 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.559 it's something that they think they have a grievance 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.960 to um yeah that it's tough because echo chambers 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.799 are a real thing even before the internet was 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.000 something you know the election of 2000 i was 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.759 on um w bush when he was running as governor 00:20:15.309 --> 00:20:17.970 And I wasn't, I would say I was a card carrying 00:20:17.970 --> 00:20:21.609 Democrat at the time. And it's amazing because 00:20:21.609 --> 00:20:23.630 you're in an echo chamber for three weeks on, 00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:25.529 three weeks off. You'll go out with that protectee 00:20:25.529 --> 00:20:27.410 and you're around the protectee. You hear the 00:20:27.410 --> 00:20:29.210 stump speech three times a day in three different 00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:32.230 cities. You are around their staffers. You're 00:20:32.230 --> 00:20:35.109 around their very avid supporters, financiers, 00:20:35.130 --> 00:20:38.069 so on and so forth. And within a couple of rotations, 00:20:38.210 --> 00:20:40.740 guess what? You start. leaning a little bit and 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:42.720 you start hearing that echo chamber and you become 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:47.039 a fan, you become a fanboy. And the same thing 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:48.920 happens the other way. And we laugh about it 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:50.859 during elections, but it's that Stockholm, I 00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:53.039 don't want to say it's Stockholm syndrome, but 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.980 it truly shows that echo chambers are a thing. 00:20:58.099 --> 00:21:00.180 And unfortunately, before that prefrontal cortex 00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:02.980 is established, these kids, and I'm interested 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:07.279 to see if the UK, if they go forward with the 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.279 banning of social media for kids, similar to 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:12.660 your brothers down in Australia, just to see 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:16.220 what that does. I'd be interested to see in that 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:19.660 experiment is that we're worried about it, taking 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:22.920 things away from people, but is that something 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.299 that we should do because they can't control 00:21:25.299 --> 00:21:28.839 themselves? I was having a conversation literally 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:30.619 just an hour ago with one of my friends who's 00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:35.190 a helicopter pilot. We were talking about that. 00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:37.470 I know a lot of us, a lot of our generation will 00:21:37.470 --> 00:21:40.210 do cell phone detoxes, for example. When I go 00:21:40.210 --> 00:21:42.930 on a cruise, I don't pay for the Wi -Fi. I lock 00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:45.990 my phone away. It's awesome. So we know that 00:21:45.990 --> 00:21:49.009 that works even for adults. But a lot of what 00:21:49.009 --> 00:21:51.509 I'm seeing now is a lot of Gen X and my son's 00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:55.200 generation. are so romanticized with the era 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:58.440 that we grew up in i think gen gen x um you know 00:21:58.440 --> 00:21:59.900 we're so fortunate because we've literally got 00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:01.940 a foot in each side of this kind of technological 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:05.900 um revolution that we're in that they're going 00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:09.059 back to unplugging now which i find fascinating 00:22:09.059 --> 00:22:12.059 like my son has a record player and records you 00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:14.839 know what i mean so that's great i love that 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:17.279 that i think that even that generation is starting 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.900 to have an awakening on how destructive it is 00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:21.839 because we're telling them it's destructive even 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.740 though we're glued to our own devices ourselves 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:27.700 so i think that what the australia and the uk 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:29.539 and some of these other places around the world 00:22:29.539 --> 00:22:31.819 are doing is brilliant and these schools even 00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:34.140 if they you know if their governing bodies don't 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.420 say it the schools are locking away the phones 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:37.920 that you can have it on the way to school. You 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.039 can have it on, you know, on the way home. But 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.660 while you're here, you're here to, to socialize 00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:45.119 and to learn. And I love that. Yeah. You'll see 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.940 the effect because they'll put the, you know, 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:48.859 they'll put the phones in the Faraday bags when 00:22:48.859 --> 00:22:51.900 the kids go to the high school. And it's insane 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:53.700 because the moment they get out of that high 00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:55.759 school, they will rush to that device and they 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:57.799 will turn it on like a heroin addict that hasn't 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:02.319 had their hit their fix. Right. So it, I think 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.569 it just needs to be consistent. You know, is 00:23:04.569 --> 00:23:07.269 that that validation that they get, that dopamine 00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:09.930 they get, it's a casino in their mind that they 00:23:09.930 --> 00:23:11.990 got to keep pulling the lever to. So at a certain 00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:13.849 point, we got to we got to intervene in some 00:23:13.849 --> 00:23:15.930 respect. You know, parents do it with their kids. 00:23:15.970 --> 00:23:19.170 But like you said, who are my parents? If I check 00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:20.990 my mom and dad's screen time, it might be as 00:23:20.990 --> 00:23:24.869 much as my my 14 year olds. You know, so I think 00:23:24.869 --> 00:23:27.490 we're all guilty of that, unfortunately, is we've 00:23:27.490 --> 00:23:30.519 went from Shakespeare. back to cave paintings 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.279 and hieroglyphics when it comes to communication. 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.079 I grew up, my best friend was deaf and I had 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.700 to look him in the eyes. He had to look me in 00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:40.720 the eyes. He had to read my lips. He had to read 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.339 my sign and we had to connect. He had to use 00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:46.259 his body language to accentuate. I had to use 00:23:46.259 --> 00:23:49.259 my body language to accentuate because the words 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:52.119 are the lyrics. The way we say the words, the 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.279 paralinguistics are the soundtrack. And the way 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.579 we look is the music video. Well, what carries 00:23:57.579 --> 00:23:59.460 the day? Why did MTV make it? Because that's 00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:01.960 the music video. You know, no one knows what 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:03.960 Eddie Vedder is saying in any Pearl Jam song. 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.380 Nobody knows the lyrics, right? But why do we 00:24:07.380 --> 00:24:09.380 listen to it? My Brazilian jujitsu instructor, 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.839 he never spoke English. He spoke Portuguese for 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.180 the first 18 years of his life. But his favorite 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:17.430 band growing up was Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why? 00:24:17.670 --> 00:24:19.730 Because of Chad Smith on the drums, because of 00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:21.650 Flea, because of Anthony Kiedis, the way his 00:24:21.650 --> 00:24:24.470 voice was almost like a musical instrument, the 00:24:24.470 --> 00:24:26.609 highs, the lows, the vocal tonality. And that's 00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:28.890 what we've lost is when you see these people 00:24:28.890 --> 00:24:32.230 come in on panels now, if you sit on panels for 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:36.450 promotion, if you sit on hiring panels and you 00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:38.269 see these kids that they just can't look in the 00:24:38.269 --> 00:24:41.730 eye, they're very soft -spoken, they can't control 00:24:41.730 --> 00:24:44.589 their volume. It's like a really bad audio book. 00:24:45.019 --> 00:24:49.400 You know, that just has no range or vocal tonality 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:51.980 to it. You know, there's a lot of things you 00:24:51.980 --> 00:24:54.099 can do to increase your voice. Your voice is 00:24:54.099 --> 00:24:56.299 the only weapon I have in an interrogation room. 00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:58.279 And I got to be able to use it. I don't have 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:00.640 a gun. So I got to be able to use that voice 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.299 effectively to keep access with this person. 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:05.720 Because if I have access to them, I can impart 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:09.279 the information that I want to put out. And then 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:11.059 I can use strategic silence to hopefully get 00:25:11.059 --> 00:25:14.710 the information that I need. With that all being 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:18.450 said, the last few minutes, what are the dangers 00:25:18.450 --> 00:25:22.069 of our political figures using social media to 00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:26.410 interact with, you know, even international other 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:30.630 leaders? It's tough. And, you know, I've seen 00:25:30.630 --> 00:25:32.210 some of this. I got to be careful about what 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:35.809 I say. But, you know, you got to be very, very 00:25:35.809 --> 00:25:38.710 careful about. Obviously, disclosing certain 00:25:38.710 --> 00:25:41.650 things, conversations with world leaders and 00:25:41.650 --> 00:25:43.289 making that be known because that's going to 00:25:43.289 --> 00:25:47.730 break down, obviously, that trust. It's a problem 00:25:47.730 --> 00:25:53.210 from a security standpoint because you may have 00:25:53.210 --> 00:25:56.349 a secure phone, but when you go to an app, the 00:25:56.349 --> 00:25:58.369 keys to the castle are with somebody else. So 00:25:58.369 --> 00:26:02.329 from a safety standpoint, it's very, very problematic. 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.359 I miss the days and we'll never go back to these 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:09.920 days because our world leaders are just a product 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.119 of us. We're the ones that vote them in. But 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.640 I miss the days of somebody like an H .W. Bush, 00:26:15.900 --> 00:26:17.980 a Reagan. And I don't mean that from a political 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:20.720 standpoint, but I mean that from a they would 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.859 go to a conference and they'd go behind closed 00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:25.539 doors and they wouldn't signal what they were 00:26:25.539 --> 00:26:26.819 going to talk about. And they'd come out with 00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:28.619 an agreement, an accord, a stark treaty, whatever 00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:33.269 the case may be. And, you know, when. h .w bush 00:26:33.269 --> 00:26:35.150 would be interviewed about the no new taxes thing 00:26:35.150 --> 00:26:40.569 and about uh not going to west berlin and dancing 00:26:40.569 --> 00:26:42.470 when the wall came down he said well of course 00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:43.930 i wasn't going to do that that would have put 00:26:43.930 --> 00:26:46.849 gorbachev in a horrible position and the staffer 00:26:46.849 --> 00:26:48.690 said well yeah but you get a 10 -point bump and 00:26:48.690 --> 00:26:50.049 you'd probably win the election he's like it's 00:26:50.049 --> 00:26:51.970 not about a 10 -point bump it's about trying 00:26:51.970 --> 00:26:55.410 to avoid nuclear war and Too many people now 00:26:55.410 --> 00:26:57.549 are transactional in how they view things, right? 00:26:57.869 --> 00:27:00.289 Everybody. I mean, not just politicians, but 00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:01.750 everything's about who's going to get elected. 00:27:01.869 --> 00:27:03.549 Where do we get this seat? How do we gerrymander? 00:27:03.650 --> 00:27:06.089 How do we do X, Y, and Z? It's red and blue. 00:27:06.190 --> 00:27:09.210 It's black and white. It's this team, your team. 00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:12.569 And we view everything reflexively through who 00:27:12.569 --> 00:27:15.269 came up with the idea. I'm sure you've seen all 00:27:15.269 --> 00:27:17.579 these studies they do where they... say that 00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:19.700 your side came up with this, but it was actually 00:27:19.700 --> 00:27:22.519 the other side. And it could be something they 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:24.039 don't agree with at all. But if they heard their 00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:26.359 side came up with it, that's a wonderful idea 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:29.759 or vice versa. It's just reflexive. We don't 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.299 think anymore. We're lemmings and constrained 00:27:32.299 --> 00:27:37.619 to whatever our party ideology is, sadly. One 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:39.700 more area, then we'll go back to your kind of 00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:42.819 professional timeline. But again, I mean, this 00:27:42.819 --> 00:27:48.059 is just an interesting perspective. I don't think 00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:49.960 many people would argue against the fact that 00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:53.880 certainly the last 10 plus years, so we're talking 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.680 both sides of the aisle, there has been a shift 00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:01.559 from the best interest of the American people 00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:04.839 to maybe the person who's in that position now. 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:08.960 It's about them. And that can everything from 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:10.980 some of the poor decisions made through the COVID 00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:14.059 to more recently, et cetera, et cetera. And one 00:28:14.059 --> 00:28:16.710 observation as someone who moved here. God, when 00:28:16.710 --> 00:28:22.170 was it now? 23 years ago. It seems to be a repetition 00:28:22.170 --> 00:28:24.390 of the same kind of person. And as you said, 00:28:24.710 --> 00:28:28.029 we're the ones that vote these people in. When 00:28:28.029 --> 00:28:32.369 you have a system of voting where you have to 00:28:32.369 --> 00:28:34.630 really be a million or billionaire to even play 00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:37.109 the game, and then you've really got to be... 00:28:37.789 --> 00:28:40.049 ethically challenged if you are taking money 00:28:40.049 --> 00:28:42.250 from companies that are leading to the deaths 00:28:42.250 --> 00:28:44.349 of americans you know drug companies and industrial 00:28:44.349 --> 00:28:48.490 military complex etc that then that environment 00:28:48.490 --> 00:28:55.549 obviously ignores or disqualifies a large portion 00:28:55.549 --> 00:28:58.349 of americans who would be great leaders for this 00:28:58.349 --> 00:29:02.069 country so i guess king for a day crown back 00:29:02.069 --> 00:29:05.549 on for a moment How do we go back to a system 00:29:05.549 --> 00:29:07.630 where we can elect people? Because, I mean, in 00:29:07.630 --> 00:29:10.130 my opinion, say you've got a Republican and Democrat 00:29:10.130 --> 00:29:14.250 in the room. Mine is this person. Yours is that 00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:17.150 person. Yours wins. And I go, well, I would have 00:29:17.150 --> 00:29:19.509 preferred mine, but yours is still a great leader. 00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:23.069 We don't have that now. It's 50 -50, World War 00:29:23.069 --> 00:29:26.829 I, trench warfare. And I would argue that none 00:29:26.829 --> 00:29:29.069 of the ones we've had recently, if you got to 00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:31.269 choose from the entire country of America, would 00:29:31.269 --> 00:29:35.859 have made the top. 1000. So if you could redesign 00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:39.259 it so that we truly do find the servant leaders 00:29:39.259 --> 00:29:42.460 of the United States of America, how could we 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:45.099 shift that system to get to that so it wasn't 00:29:45.099 --> 00:29:49.980 so divisive every four years? Term limits. That's 00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:52.960 it. Term limits. I mean, you can't force a third 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:55.640 political party, right? I think the last time 00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.500 we really saw that closely was Ross Perot. And 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:00.579 some people would say that just allowed Clinton 00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:04.009 to get elected. um and why was ross pro able 00:30:04.009 --> 00:30:05.730 to do that because he was one of the first billionaires 00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:07.809 right so he had obviously had the the financial 00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:10.789 resources but if you're just spitballing it you 00:30:10.789 --> 00:30:13.990 know 12 years two senate terms six representative 00:30:13.990 --> 00:30:16.490 terms you wouldn't see somebody coming in at 00:30:16.490 --> 00:30:20.829 175 000 salary and leaving as uh worth 20 million 00:30:20.829 --> 00:30:24.700 dollars right you just wouldn't see that um Some 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:26.799 people would say you lose the experience. I mean, 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:28.460 look, you can learn how to be a police officer 00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:30.720 or a firefighter in six months. I think you can 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.599 learn how to vote and be a politician in that 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.640 same amount of time. So, yeah, I think term limits, 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.059 I think most people would agree upon something 00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:41.119 like that. You can say campaign financing reform, 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.019 but to me, there's always going to be money in 00:30:44.019 --> 00:30:46.180 it. It's kind of like if you follow American 00:30:46.180 --> 00:30:49.099 college NIL money, there's always been money 00:30:49.099 --> 00:30:51.400 in college sports. It just was kind of done under 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.469 the table. Now it's done out in the open. So 00:30:55.469 --> 00:31:00.170 if you put campaign fund in there, would it change 00:31:00.170 --> 00:31:02.349 anything? I don't know. But if somebody can only 00:31:02.349 --> 00:31:04.170 serve in office for 12 years, similar to the 00:31:04.170 --> 00:31:06.349 two terms as a president, I think that may change 00:31:06.349 --> 00:31:09.559 some things. I think having to actually say where 00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:11.480 your money's coming from, front and center as 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.579 well. So for example, if Purdue Pharma is sponsoring 00:31:14.579 --> 00:31:17.119 you and they are responsible for 100 ,000 Americans 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:19.900 dying every year from the opioid crisis, maybe 00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:21.619 that should be put at the front. And I love that 00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:24.099 whole kind of NASCAR analogy where your suit 00:31:24.099 --> 00:31:25.859 is covered in everyone that paid for you to get 00:31:25.859 --> 00:31:28.420 there because then maybe you'd choose more wisely 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:32.099 next time. Yeah, if you can shroud where you're 00:31:32.099 --> 00:31:34.559 getting your money, that obviously allows you 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.799 to be a little, it would force you to be a little 00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:40.740 more selective, like you said, if you're Dale 00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:42.460 Earnhardt Jr. and you've got to put everything 00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:46.039 there on the car. Absolutely. All right, well, 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:48.579 let's get back to the timeline then. So as you 00:31:48.579 --> 00:31:50.859 enter this profession, you talked about financial 00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:53.480 crimes. So before we get to the protection detail, 00:31:53.859 --> 00:31:58.480 what was that world? It was great working counterfeit. 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:00.839 You know, the good thing about working counterfeit 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:03.359 and how it kind of tied in with detection of 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:05.299 deception is the first thing you do when you 00:32:05.299 --> 00:32:07.339 learn U .S. currency is you learn how real currency 00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:10.859 is made. You learn where the paper's from, the 00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:14.059 countermeasures we put in that. You learn how 00:32:14.059 --> 00:32:17.440 it's printed. Every little aspect of genuine 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:19.599 currency, you know what genuine currency is. 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.319 And the advantage of that is anything that's 00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:23.269 not genuine is counterfeit. There's a million 00:32:23.269 --> 00:32:24.470 different ways you can counterfeit something, 00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:26.609 but there's only one way you can make it genuine. 00:32:26.730 --> 00:32:28.289 So that's the best way to learn something. And 00:32:28.289 --> 00:32:30.009 it's the same thing with learning detection of 00:32:30.009 --> 00:32:32.529 deception. When I ultimately got into polygraph 00:32:32.529 --> 00:32:36.210 was you learn what genuine behavior is. And then 00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:37.630 if it's not genuine, you have to assume there's 00:32:37.630 --> 00:32:39.569 a red flag associated with it. So it makes it 00:32:39.569 --> 00:32:40.809 a little bit easier because there's a billion 00:32:40.809 --> 00:32:43.410 reasons why someone may choose to lie to you. 00:32:43.869 --> 00:32:46.309 But if you understand the truth, then you can 00:32:46.309 --> 00:32:48.769 hopefully identify that, hey, I need to explore 00:32:48.769 --> 00:32:50.549 a little bit more here because something's not 00:32:50.549 --> 00:32:52.839 right. We're very bad at detecting deception. 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:55.819 We're tribal communities for the last 500 ,000 00:32:55.819 --> 00:32:59.700 years. That tribe was built upon lying to stay 00:32:59.700 --> 00:33:02.740 in the tribe and not detecting lies so that we 00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:05.480 wouldn't upset the tribe. So people tend to do 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:08.319 it a lot of it a couple of times a day. It's 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:10.480 just, what's the reason for that lie, I guess. 00:33:10.660 --> 00:33:13.140 So, but as far as financial crimes, loved it. 00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:15.420 Credit card fraud, worked a lot of organized 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:18.640 crime task forces. And then why was there? I 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:22.359 was really blessed to see a couple of great polygraph 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.740 examiners that one thing the Secret Service does 00:33:24.740 --> 00:33:27.160 is we leverage our polygraph program to assist 00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.369 the locals. And I always thought, man, this is 00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:32.390 great. I get to go out and work homicides, child 00:33:32.390 --> 00:33:35.329 sexual assaults, these types of cases. And I 00:33:35.329 --> 00:33:37.470 got to see them really be a good force multiplier 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:40.069 in those cases because polygraph is a very divisive 00:33:40.069 --> 00:33:42.150 thing to a lot of people, both in the fire industry, 00:33:42.329 --> 00:33:43.970 law enforcement, so on and so forth, especially 00:33:43.970 --> 00:33:45.509 when it comes to applicants, those types of things. 00:33:46.509 --> 00:33:49.289 However, it's the best mousetrap we've got. We're 00:33:49.289 --> 00:33:51.670 50 some percent effective at, if you told me 00:33:51.670 --> 00:33:54.650 a story, James, I'd be about 54 % effective at 00:33:54.650 --> 00:33:56.390 determining if you were being truthful with me. 00:33:57.230 --> 00:33:58.809 With polygraph, I can get that up in the high 00:33:58.809 --> 00:34:01.150 80s. It's not perfect. It shouldn't be used in 00:34:01.150 --> 00:34:05.369 court. It should have a very rigid set of rules 00:34:05.369 --> 00:34:07.130 and regulations. You should have quality control. 00:34:07.410 --> 00:34:09.090 It should have guardrails. We should only use 00:34:09.090 --> 00:34:11.909 it in very, very specific types of cases. When 00:34:11.909 --> 00:34:13.670 you start making it into Jerry Springer type 00:34:13.670 --> 00:34:16.170 stuff, that's when it gets a bad name and it's 00:34:16.170 --> 00:34:19.630 misused and who's the father type stuff is very, 00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:23.090 very problematic. Got to go do six months of 00:34:23.090 --> 00:34:27.650 training at Fort Jackson. And that's where we 00:34:27.650 --> 00:34:29.289 have our federal polygraph school. And then got 00:34:29.289 --> 00:34:31.949 out and was just blessed that in my next three 00:34:31.949 --> 00:34:35.309 assignments, Chicago, St. Louis, and Columbia, 00:34:35.369 --> 00:34:38.690 South Carolina, that got to work the most criminal 00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:40.929 polygraph cases in the history of the Secret 00:34:40.929 --> 00:34:43.750 Service. So talked to a lot of very, very bad 00:34:43.750 --> 00:34:46.710 people. And then we're also fortunate to exonerate 00:34:46.710 --> 00:34:48.550 a lot of people who had been falsely accused. 00:34:49.550 --> 00:34:51.789 You know, trying to shape these investigations 00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:53.769 and then sometimes every once in a while stepping 00:34:53.769 --> 00:34:55.750 into one and being able to have a good outcome 00:34:55.750 --> 00:34:59.630 and bring justice was great because, especially 00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:01.369 with the kid cases, James, because, you know, 00:35:01.369 --> 00:35:02.690 as you know, in the fire industry, you know, 00:35:02.750 --> 00:35:05.409 if you, you know, anytime you see a kid hurt. 00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:07.719 Right. I mean, that gets to you, that messes 00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:09.539 with you. I mean, that causes a lot of PTSD with 00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:12.199 people that, you know, from medical examiners 00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:13.840 to firefighters to law enforcement, when they 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.639 see a kid that's severely hurt or a death of 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:20.639 a child, it's just terrible. So kids, anytime 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:22.400 you can bring justice to them, our protectees. 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:24.579 Many of them have money. They could probably 00:35:24.579 --> 00:35:26.980 get their own private security. We give them 00:35:26.980 --> 00:35:29.000 protection, but we don't give our most vulnerable 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:30.639 the protection that they deserve, which is the 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:33.360 kids. So for me, I think that's when I found 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.940 my career calling as far as working those cases. 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:41.280 Going back to Polygraph first, backstory. When 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.940 I first graduated from Fire Academy and I went 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.880 down south, there was a thing that was called 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.579 the Fire Teams. You did a test. You did a physical 00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:55.309 test, a written test. And then they kind of put 00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:57.510 your application to all the places that were 00:35:57.510 --> 00:36:00.429 hiring. And at the, I think it was the physical 00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:04.250 agility test, Miami Beach was there. And they 00:36:04.250 --> 00:36:06.269 were doing pre -apps. The first time I'd ever 00:36:06.269 --> 00:36:08.630 applied for a fire department in my life, coming 00:36:08.630 --> 00:36:10.670 from another country, didn't have any kind of 00:36:10.670 --> 00:36:13.369 relatives or anything in the fire service. So 00:36:13.369 --> 00:36:17.250 answer this application very honestly. Have you 00:36:17.250 --> 00:36:18.929 ever tried this in the past? Yeah, a long time 00:36:18.929 --> 00:36:21.400 ago, I tried this and this. literally screwed 00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.059 it up and threw it in my face and said, you're 00:36:23.059 --> 00:36:25.940 disqualified. And I was like, oh, so you have 00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:28.239 to lie to become a firefighter in this country. 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.059 Okay. Cause it wasn't bad. It was a long time 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:33.000 ago, but you know, that was how it is. So the 00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.559 next time, you know, I went through the application 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:36.440 process and I'm told I'm going to do a polygraph. 00:36:36.860 --> 00:36:39.599 Now I'm obviously shitting myself because a long 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:43.699 time ago I had tried, tried a couple of things 00:36:43.699 --> 00:36:45.539 in another country. One of the things was legal. 00:36:45.579 --> 00:36:48.280 So it was kind of complicated, but hadn't touched 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:50.400 anything for a long time. Didn't do anything 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.380 wrong with those apart from dance a lot. And 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:55.800 so now I'm sitting in front of this person. And 00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:57.300 I'd actually researched it. And there's some 00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:00.840 things that we know of that you can do prior 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.619 that will set the baseline. And I think it was 00:37:03.619 --> 00:37:05.820 either two or three polygraphs that I went through, 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:08.360 through different agencies as I got hired and 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:09.679 then moved to a different part of the country. 00:37:10.420 --> 00:37:12.739 But there was a lot of smoke and mirrors with 00:37:12.739 --> 00:37:16.900 that level. And it parallels to me when you... 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:20.320 talk about psychological tests for police and 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.000 fire, we do the MMPI, the Minnesota Multiphasic 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.360 Personality Interview. And every person I've 00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:28.940 had on from the mental health world, when I've 00:37:28.940 --> 00:37:30.960 asked them about that, they said, well, that's 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.519 supposed to be part of forensic psychology. We 00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:36.719 do a gamut of tests, create a profile, and then 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.179 you have it. So that on its own cannot determine 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:41.039 if you're supposed to be a firefighter or a cop. 00:37:41.500 --> 00:37:44.400 So now kind of unraveling this whole thing with 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.159 the podcast, And learning that in that particular 00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:50.760 case, it really is, you know, it doesn't have 00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:53.340 a lot of value. It's box checking for someone 00:37:53.340 --> 00:37:55.059 to turn around and say, well, we told you James 00:37:55.059 --> 00:37:57.659 was crazy because, you know, we didn't know he 00:37:57.659 --> 00:37:59.340 was crazy because we tested and you said he was 00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:02.019 fine. And the same with the polygraph. The two 00:38:02.019 --> 00:38:04.239 things that I tried now are very, very successful 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.239 for PTSD. So there's an irony. There's a full 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.079 circle where the very chemicals that I had are 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.139 now healing our police and fire from the things 00:38:12.139 --> 00:38:15.159 that they see in the job. So with that massive 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:21.110 monologue. What is your perspective on polygraph 00:38:21.110 --> 00:38:25.750 use in potential fire and police? And if you 00:38:25.750 --> 00:38:30.570 want to expand more, are we expecting choir boys 00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:34.550 and choir girls and turning away what might be 00:38:34.550 --> 00:38:36.750 a good candidate because of some of these arbitrary 00:38:36.750 --> 00:38:41.690 things that we're throwing in there as a dismissal? 00:38:42.710 --> 00:38:45.730 Yeah. And, you know, obviously. It's something 00:38:45.730 --> 00:38:48.789 we always deal with, right? The whole person 00:38:48.789 --> 00:38:50.869 concept is, I think, the way most agencies operate 00:38:50.869 --> 00:38:53.789 on, where they realize, when I came into the 00:38:53.789 --> 00:38:55.889 Secret Service, it was extremely difficult regarding 00:38:55.889 --> 00:38:59.670 marijuana, obviously any other drug use, any 00:38:59.670 --> 00:39:02.690 type of felony. They pretty much don't even apply, 00:39:02.909 --> 00:39:06.309 right? But it's changed a lot because what they 00:39:06.309 --> 00:39:07.889 realized is, especially if something happens 00:39:07.889 --> 00:39:09.730 early on in your life, so if you're talking about, 00:39:09.809 --> 00:39:12.510 hey, I'm over in, you know, you grew up in... 00:39:12.809 --> 00:39:15.130 wherever, Manchester, and you're like, hey, let's 00:39:15.130 --> 00:39:17.190 go to holiday to Amsterdam. And you did something 00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:19.690 as far as something over in Amsterdam that was 00:39:19.690 --> 00:39:22.190 legal in Amsterdam, right? Maybe I'm hitting 00:39:22.190 --> 00:39:23.730 on something there. You're getting close. Maybe 00:39:23.730 --> 00:39:26.909 you were like 16, potential, right? So, hey, 00:39:26.929 --> 00:39:28.750 you're 16, you're going over there, so on and 00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:31.590 so forth. You come back, you put it down, you 00:39:31.590 --> 00:39:33.329 put it on your application form. Now there, that 00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:35.610 didn't involve a polygraph. Whatever they had 00:39:35.610 --> 00:39:39.010 going on, they had a zero tolerance policy. Maybe 00:39:39.010 --> 00:39:40.929 they had enough applicants where they could just 00:39:41.260 --> 00:39:42.980 Maybe there was an inside game. They had the 00:39:42.980 --> 00:39:46.119 person they wanted to hire. Don't know. But I 00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:48.099 would say what gets people in a lot of problems 00:39:48.099 --> 00:39:50.460 with Polygraph is people do lie on the application 00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:54.239 because of preconceived notion. And sadly, you 00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:56.860 have to know what that agency's and most of them, 00:39:56.900 --> 00:39:58.639 FBI, Secret Service, they put it on their website. 00:39:59.059 --> 00:40:00.840 You know, hey, you can't use marijuana in the 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:02.559 last year. You can't use hard drugs in the last 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.619 whatever it is. You know, I don't want to give 00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:06.340 specifics because I don't know them right now. 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:08.440 They constantly change. But they definitely went 00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:10.260 down to accommodate that whole person concept 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:12.829 because what we realized we were having. Green 00:40:12.829 --> 00:40:16.190 Berets, you know, people that had trigger time 00:40:16.190 --> 00:40:18.869 in Afghanistan and Iraq that were amazing applicants. 00:40:19.309 --> 00:40:21.090 But maybe when they got back, you know what, 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:24.130 they used marijuana one time. And that was three, 00:40:24.210 --> 00:40:26.409 four years removed. And that was potentially 00:40:26.409 --> 00:40:29.429 excluding a really good applicant. So we would 00:40:29.429 --> 00:40:30.869 look at patterns of behavior and things like 00:40:30.869 --> 00:40:33.329 that. What I will say about Polygraph is it's 00:40:33.329 --> 00:40:35.409 the best adjudicative tool that we have, meaning 00:40:35.409 --> 00:40:39.210 I've had people admit to rape, robbery. I've 00:40:39.210 --> 00:40:41.050 had an individual admit to killing another person. 00:40:42.489 --> 00:40:44.250 some things I won't get into that are just more 00:40:44.250 --> 00:40:46.429 embarrassing, but can be problematic behavior. 00:40:47.090 --> 00:40:50.969 But an agency, you know, child sexual abuse material 00:40:50.969 --> 00:40:54.789 is a very, very common thing that we get. And 00:40:54.789 --> 00:40:56.469 you're not going to get that in a background 00:40:56.469 --> 00:40:58.989 check where you, because they've never been arrested. 00:40:59.329 --> 00:41:00.710 You're not going to get that when you go talk 00:41:00.710 --> 00:41:02.750 to neighbors because people keep their doors 00:41:02.750 --> 00:41:04.869 shut or they don't want to talk to law enforcement. 00:41:05.869 --> 00:41:07.530 You're not going to talk to the, it's not the 00:41:07.530 --> 00:41:10.150 references that you put down on your. forms probably 00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:11.309 are not going to hand you up. They're probably 00:41:11.309 --> 00:41:13.969 not going to snitch on you. Whereas what polygraph 00:41:13.969 --> 00:41:15.769 is, I want you to equate it to a magnetometer. 00:41:16.010 --> 00:41:17.829 It's not perfect. Magnetometers aren't perfect. 00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:21.210 But what it does is it does, you know, it does 00:41:21.210 --> 00:41:23.530 show there's an issue here we need to explore. 00:41:23.730 --> 00:41:25.369 So there needs to be some additional testing. 00:41:25.449 --> 00:41:28.150 We need to look into this area. And when done 00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:30.510 in that manner, when it's successive hurdles, 00:41:30.789 --> 00:41:33.469 okay, and not just, hey, you failed this one 00:41:33.469 --> 00:41:35.329 question in this one second and you're done. 00:41:36.149 --> 00:41:38.610 you tend to find it's much more effective. It's 00:41:38.610 --> 00:41:42.010 a more robust tool. Anytime I would fly, James, 00:41:42.210 --> 00:41:45.110 I would, we travel armed. And if I was traveling 00:41:45.110 --> 00:41:47.349 for polygraph, the pilot, he or she would say, 00:41:47.429 --> 00:41:48.949 where are you going? I'm going to Toledo. What 00:41:48.949 --> 00:41:50.389 are you going there for? Polygraph to do some 00:41:50.389 --> 00:41:53.010 polygraphs. Polygraph, man, that doesn't work. 00:41:53.130 --> 00:41:55.030 And I heard you could beat it. And I'm like, 00:41:55.070 --> 00:41:56.750 well, there's about 300 people about to get on 00:41:56.750 --> 00:41:58.829 your plane and you're trusting them with a magnetometer. 00:41:59.190 --> 00:42:01.750 That's not perfect, but you know what? It's going 00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:03.849 to keep some people from walking through that 00:42:03.849 --> 00:42:05.369 magnetometer. It's going to catch people that 00:42:05.369 --> 00:42:06.789 made mistakes walking through that magnetometer. 00:42:06.849 --> 00:42:08.829 And it's going to catch potentially somebody 00:42:08.829 --> 00:42:10.309 that's going to bring that bad thing on the magnetometer. 00:42:11.130 --> 00:42:12.789 And I said, that's the purpose. I said, that's 00:42:12.789 --> 00:42:15.269 the same thing with polygraph is it deters certain 00:42:15.269 --> 00:42:18.690 people from a pine. It deters when you do, let's 00:42:18.690 --> 00:42:20.900 say. you know certain national security agencies 00:42:20.900 --> 00:42:24.840 it deters those people from uh potentially engaging 00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:26.599 in certain behavior of a national security interest 00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:28.239 and i hear this all the time on these forums 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.019 oh polygraph's never caught a spy it's never 00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:33.780 done this it's incorrect okay it just it just 00:42:33.780 --> 00:42:37.119 is it's a safer place because because of polygraph 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.659 but it needs to be done very very rigidly and 00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:41.380 then i would follow up the the next question 00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:43.500 from the pilot by saying countermeasures okay 00:42:44.409 --> 00:42:46.409 Do you think we don't look at the same boards? 00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:47.949 We don't look at the same things? We don't know 00:42:47.949 --> 00:42:50.530 what normal physiology is or unnormal physiology? 00:42:51.130 --> 00:42:53.329 I say to the pilot, I said, I could probably 00:42:53.329 --> 00:42:57.809 learn the schematics of this plane, right? If 00:42:57.809 --> 00:43:02.309 I read 300 pages of what to flip as far as the 00:43:02.309 --> 00:43:04.329 pre -flight checklist, all that, right? I could 00:43:04.329 --> 00:43:06.570 probably learn on paper how to fly this plane. 00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:09.449 Yep, you could. Okay. But if I came in on game 00:43:09.449 --> 00:43:14.400 day and the windows were covered, And the instrument 00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.599 panel was dark. And I was flying. And I wouldn't 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:19.860 know what my inputs were doing, what the rudder, 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:21.739 what the throttle, what it was affecting as far 00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:24.559 as my orientation in the air. I would probably 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:26.340 crash, right? And he said, oh, absolutely, you'd 00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:28.179 crash. I said, it's the same thing when somebody 00:43:28.179 --> 00:43:30.679 looks up countermeasures is we know what you're 00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:32.079 doing. We wouldn't know what normal physiology 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:34.039 is. And you don't know what I'm seeing. So you're 00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:35.619 doing too much or too little of what you think, 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:37.119 whether it be the tack and the shoe or some other 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:40.559 things that I won't get into. People can believe 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.659 me all they want, but after having been in Polygraph 00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:46.079 for 17 years and worked this aspect of it and 00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:48.780 seen from many other agencies, many, many more 00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:52.440 people are excluded from hiring because they 00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.659 tried to do countermeasure than are false positives. 00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:57.820 Now, many of those people had something to hide. 00:43:58.369 --> 00:44:00.650 They rolled the dice, but many of those people 00:44:00.650 --> 00:44:02.510 were afraid. Hey, I got to take it. I don't want 00:44:02.510 --> 00:44:05.190 to take any chances here. We all want control 00:44:05.190 --> 00:44:06.889 in an environment. So I'm going to do X, Y, and 00:44:06.889 --> 00:44:09.130 Z to try to help myself out. And that's the sad 00:44:09.130 --> 00:44:12.349 part is that thousands of people do that and 00:44:12.349 --> 00:44:15.070 we see it and they get terminated for that reason. 00:44:15.449 --> 00:44:17.570 For something that many times it would be that 00:44:17.570 --> 00:44:19.889 one mistake in Amsterdam, where if they just 00:44:19.889 --> 00:44:21.110 would have put it on their forms, they'd either 00:44:21.110 --> 00:44:22.530 passed or we would have just been like, oh, you're 00:44:22.530 --> 00:44:25.179 good. Don't worry about it. So that's my little 00:44:25.179 --> 00:44:27.260 spiel on polygraph. And it always, when I say 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:28.960 it like that, people are like, you're an acolyte. 00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:30.760 You're this. Of course, you'd say those things 00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:32.840 because you work for the government. Of course, 00:44:32.860 --> 00:44:34.519 you'd say those things and be like, okay, that's 00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:36.840 fine. I say those things because of the truth, 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:41.679 because I've seen it. When we do polygraph in 00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:45.280 child sexual abuse investigations, in which you've 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:47.099 all seen the to catch predator cases, right? 00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:49.920 What we really started doing when I was in Illinois, 00:44:50.099 --> 00:44:52.079 Missouri, South Carolina, and we've started doing 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.860 across the nation over the last 15 years and 00:44:53.860 --> 00:44:55.900 many other agencies, not just Secret Service, 00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.780 FBI, and then many local agencies. We now do 00:44:58.780 --> 00:45:00.519 tactical polygraphs and shouldn't use the word 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:02.880 tactical with polygraph. But what we do is we 00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:04.739 polygraph these people that show up to meet these 00:45:04.739 --> 00:45:07.599 undercover police officers and we polygraph them. 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:09.219 We offer them a polygraph. Many of them take 00:45:09.219 --> 00:45:12.800 it. And what we found is 60 % of them, James, 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.699 admit to previous hands -on contact with a minor. 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:19.539 that we never would have came up with because 00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:21.519 we got them dead to rights on the chat logs. 00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:22.820 We got them dead to rights because they showed 00:45:22.820 --> 00:45:25.320 up. They picked up the sandwich before they came 00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:29.099 to the house, whatever. But when they sit down 00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:31.239 for a polygraph, 60 % admit to hands -on. And 00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:32.920 we do the same thing for people that download, 00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:36.400 we don't call it, we call it child sexual abuse 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:39.059 material, CSAM. People that download that, when 00:45:39.059 --> 00:45:42.199 we test them, once again, 60 % admit to actual 00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:45.509 hands -on contact. So it's not just images. So 00:45:45.509 --> 00:45:47.969 by leveraging Polygraph at the right time in 00:45:47.969 --> 00:45:49.869 the right place with the right person in their 00:45:49.869 --> 00:45:51.570 right headspace, when we're in the right headspace 00:45:51.570 --> 00:45:54.070 and we got quality control, it's a great tool. 00:45:54.369 --> 00:45:57.050 When you're going out there like a cowboy and 00:45:57.050 --> 00:46:01.329 when you have no guardrails, meaning we have 00:46:01.329 --> 00:46:04.289 a very wide gulf that's inconclusive, meaning 00:46:04.289 --> 00:46:06.210 I'd rather walk out to the detectives and say, 00:46:06.269 --> 00:46:08.150 hey, James, man, I don't know. I'm going to have 00:46:08.150 --> 00:46:11.829 to retest them. Huge gulf. And that's good because 00:46:11.829 --> 00:46:14.420 we know it's not perfect. So that imperfection 00:46:14.420 --> 00:46:16.860 typically will fall into the inconclusive range. 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:19.900 If you have an organization that's just making 00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:24.119 calls yes or no with no inconclusives, I wouldn't 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.159 want that. So that's the problem is it's sometimes 00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:31.380 misutilized within an organization. And that 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:34.639 makes all use of polygraph come into question, 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.869 unfortunately. See, that was kind of my experience 00:46:37.869 --> 00:46:40.630 just because I saw the same routine. Like after 00:46:40.630 --> 00:46:42.650 the second, I can't remember. I think it was 00:46:42.650 --> 00:46:45.829 three I did. Certainly, I mean, definitely two, 00:46:45.929 --> 00:46:48.869 I think three. But it was the same guy with the 00:46:48.869 --> 00:46:51.829 same spiel and all the plaques all over his wall 00:46:51.829 --> 00:46:54.510 and that he had this storied history. And it 00:46:54.510 --> 00:46:56.690 was like, then I'm thinking, would you guys go 00:46:56.690 --> 00:46:58.650 to a class to learn this stuff? And again, I 00:46:58.650 --> 00:47:00.769 have a full understanding that there's that. 00:47:01.289 --> 00:47:03.630 and there's what you're talking about. And this 00:47:03.630 --> 00:47:05.590 is why I think this is a good conversation. But 00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:08.690 if that is that, then the question is, well, 00:47:08.789 --> 00:47:12.730 should we be using that to qualify or disqualify, 00:47:12.769 --> 00:47:15.650 like you said, on a single test, someone who 00:47:15.650 --> 00:47:17.949 could potentially be an incredible police officer, 00:47:18.070 --> 00:47:21.210 firefighter, paramedic, or this is the whole 00:47:21.210 --> 00:47:23.110 point of the show, is there a better way of doing 00:47:23.110 --> 00:47:25.989 it? That's what we're working on. We're trying 00:47:25.989 --> 00:47:28.210 to get a better way. And part of that's going 00:47:28.210 --> 00:47:30.840 to be, Getting a better polygraph. And we're 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:33.539 looking at things that can literally be contactless. 00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:36.719 And, you know, in a perfect world, man, I could 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.019 put a hat on you, James, and it would be an FMRI 00:47:39.019 --> 00:47:41.039 and it would look at your brain light up and 00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:44.320 recall versus creation and all this stuff, right? 00:47:44.380 --> 00:47:47.139 It'd be wonderful. We just don't have that. And 00:47:47.139 --> 00:47:48.699 we've tried. I was at the Federal Polygraph School 00:47:48.699 --> 00:47:51.820 for seven years, and there's a lot of money that's 00:47:51.820 --> 00:47:55.059 spent on research. And yet. The basic components 00:47:55.059 --> 00:47:57.699 are the same components that we used in 1939. 00:47:57.980 --> 00:47:59.679 I'll tell you a quick story, James. The first 00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.340 federal polygraph that was done was by a man 00:48:02.340 --> 00:48:04.579 named Frank Seckler. He was a Secret Service 00:48:04.579 --> 00:48:07.500 agent. He goes out to Chicago, learns polygraph. 00:48:07.619 --> 00:48:10.000 At then, it wasn't a three, four -month school 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.599 with a year -long internship after. You go there 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:14.860 for three days, and it was the old pen and paper, 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:18.099 right? And he goes out there. He gets trained 00:48:18.099 --> 00:48:19.579 with two other Secret Service agents. He goes 00:48:19.579 --> 00:48:22.340 out to New York when he's done. He's an agent 00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:24.949 in New York. And they're trying to track down 00:48:24.949 --> 00:48:27.170 this famous counterfeiter. And this counterfeiter, 00:48:27.250 --> 00:48:28.429 they've got him under surveillance and they're 00:48:28.429 --> 00:48:30.809 trying to find out where he's printing at. And 00:48:30.809 --> 00:48:33.110 it's like the French connection. They're taking 00:48:33.110 --> 00:48:36.750 trains. They're taking streetcars. They're doing 00:48:36.750 --> 00:48:39.989 a good job of not being, you know, hinking the 00:48:39.989 --> 00:48:41.809 guy up as far as on the surveillance, making 00:48:41.809 --> 00:48:44.090 him know that they're after him. But they see 00:48:44.090 --> 00:48:45.710 him going to an eight -story tenement building. 00:48:46.409 --> 00:48:48.690 And he goes in and they can't see him either 00:48:48.690 --> 00:48:50.230 getting the elevator or the steps. I don't think 00:48:50.230 --> 00:48:51.909 they had elevators then. So whatever the steps 00:48:51.909 --> 00:48:55.130 were. And, you know, they don't know what floor 00:48:55.130 --> 00:48:57.469 he went to. So they wait and they wait till he 00:48:57.469 --> 00:48:59.809 comes out. He's got about, I don't know, a thousand 00:48:59.809 --> 00:49:01.250 dollars to counterfeit, which was a huge amount 00:49:01.250 --> 00:49:04.170 of money back then. Right. He doesn't want to 00:49:04.170 --> 00:49:05.710 talk. He doesn't want to participate. So what 00:49:05.710 --> 00:49:07.050 they do is they bring him back and we're going 00:49:07.050 --> 00:49:08.590 to test him with this whole polygraph thing. 00:49:08.650 --> 00:49:11.809 Right. So they do what's called a guilty knowledge 00:49:11.809 --> 00:49:14.469 test, which even the people that don't like polygraph, 00:49:14.630 --> 00:49:17.329 they'll say that this is something that people 00:49:17.329 --> 00:49:20.539 are very comfortable with because. you only a 00:49:20.539 --> 00:49:22.360 guilty person should respond to these questions. 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:24.000 So what they did is they said, did you go to 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.659 floor one through eight? And they ran that multiple 00:49:26.659 --> 00:49:29.119 times. And it just so happened he kept hitting 00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:32.059 on number four. And then did you go to room A 00:49:32.059 --> 00:49:34.619 or did you go to room H, whatever it was? And 00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:37.239 he kept hitting on D. And I'll be darned if they 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:39.099 don't go there, the Secret Service agents, and 00:49:39.099 --> 00:49:41.000 they kick in room 4D and there's the counterfeit 00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:44.880 operation. Now, 1939. So if you go back to, hey, 00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:48.500 Hitler's invading Belgium at the same time. you 00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:50.860 know and we think how long ago that was and if 00:49:50.860 --> 00:49:54.380 you had that instrument mr seckler must have 00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:57.840 thought they had invented magic right um now 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.130 obviously there's been a lot of uh you know, 00:50:00.130 --> 00:50:03.150 changes to polygraph since that point, but it 00:50:03.150 --> 00:50:05.449 has its wins. It has its applications, but it 00:50:05.449 --> 00:50:07.550 also has its limitations. And that's what we, 00:50:07.570 --> 00:50:09.969 we have to realize. We can't have an ego when 00:50:09.969 --> 00:50:11.809 it comes to these things and think we can't get 00:50:11.809 --> 00:50:13.570 better at something. And that's, that's where 00:50:13.570 --> 00:50:15.230 we're at too many times when it comes to law 00:50:15.230 --> 00:50:17.010 enforcement, the fire service. And then we, Hey, 00:50:17.130 --> 00:50:18.469 we've always done it this way. Cause this is 00:50:18.469 --> 00:50:20.349 the best way. There's probably a better way out 00:50:20.349 --> 00:50:23.389 there or a way to enhance the way that you're 00:50:23.389 --> 00:50:24.710 currently doing things. So that's something we're 00:50:24.710 --> 00:50:28.260 looking at. And also The best predictor, James, 00:50:28.340 --> 00:50:30.760 of future behavior is past behavior. I mean, 00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:32.860 I still believe that. Sometimes with targeted 00:50:32.860 --> 00:50:34.920 violence, that's changing a little bit just because 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:37.500 of the way in which people can accelerate how 00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:44.059 that cycle of aggression goes now with the algorithms 00:50:44.059 --> 00:50:47.639 and that type of stuff. But typically, looking 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:50.179 at people's last five years is going to give 00:50:50.179 --> 00:50:51.699 you a very good indication of how they're going 00:50:51.699 --> 00:50:54.760 to do over a 25 -year career. So instead of focusing 00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:58.969 on just the polygraph. Just a MMPI. Absolutely. 00:50:59.849 --> 00:51:02.230 You talked about interrogation a little while 00:51:02.230 --> 00:51:06.190 ago. While we're on this topic. One thing I've 00:51:06.190 --> 00:51:07.789 said, and obviously I've had people talking about 00:51:07.789 --> 00:51:10.909 this, and this really pertains to the insane 00:51:10.909 --> 00:51:14.090 overworking that we're seeing at the moment through 00:51:14.090 --> 00:51:16.050 this recruitment crisis in law enforcement and 00:51:16.050 --> 00:51:19.429 fire and EMS. Literally, I just told you before 00:51:19.429 --> 00:51:21.710 I hit record, I just learned of a local firefighter 00:51:21.710 --> 00:51:24.449 of exactly my age, just took his or her life, 00:51:24.530 --> 00:51:28.230 I don't know if it was a man or a woman, 26 years 00:51:28.230 --> 00:51:32.889 in the fire service. The way that sleep deprivation 00:51:32.889 --> 00:51:36.050 is used deliberately, is special forces selection 00:51:36.050 --> 00:51:40.550 interrogation and torture and that's it and we 00:51:40.550 --> 00:51:42.750 wonder why our first responders are falling apart 00:51:42.750 --> 00:51:45.250 when we work them into the ground like this with 00:51:45.250 --> 00:51:48.070 that being said talk to me about if if any at 00:51:48.070 --> 00:51:50.409 all a perspective of using sleep deprivation 00:51:50.409 --> 00:51:52.610 when you are interrogating some of these people 00:51:52.610 --> 00:51:57.070 yeah never never do it the last thing i my goal 00:51:57.070 --> 00:51:59.349 and what i teach all our students all our agency 00:51:59.349 --> 00:52:03.260 personnel is we want to get the truth The worst 00:52:03.260 --> 00:52:06.119 outcome is to get a false confession. Okay. And 00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:10.199 if you go back 60, 70, 80 years, there were certain 00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:11.880 psychological techniques that were utilized. 00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:16.300 Obviously, you know, without getting into specificity 00:52:16.300 --> 00:52:18.400 in recent history, there were certain things 00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.320 done to try to get people to make disclosures 00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:24.460 in overseas locations that might've involved 00:52:24.460 --> 00:52:26.420 sleep deprivation. You'd see that in serious 00:52:26.420 --> 00:52:28.059 school. You would see that, you know, you see 00:52:28.059 --> 00:52:31.119 that in the movies, you see that. But when people 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:34.260 don't have a rest cycle, it obviously causes 00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:36.199 them to make poor decisions. We all know that, 00:52:36.260 --> 00:52:40.079 right? You look at when the, you know, in parts 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.760 of the country that have the, what's that called? 00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:45.480 The change, the fallback, spring forward. Oh 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:48.320 yeah, the time change. The time change. You got 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:51.079 a 20 some percent increase of accidents on the 00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:54.409 short change, you know, the fallback. um or spring 00:52:54.409 --> 00:52:56.769 forward i'm sorry so there's like a 24 increase 00:52:56.769 --> 00:52:58.929 in traffic accidents the next day with just one 00:52:58.929 --> 00:53:01.849 hour less of a change can have that much of a 00:53:01.849 --> 00:53:04.210 dramatic effect and we all see you know we know 00:53:04.210 --> 00:53:06.210 what happens in shift work i know it's terrible 00:53:06.210 --> 00:53:07.849 in protection when you have to short change back 00:53:07.849 --> 00:53:10.809 when you go from that midnight shift to the afternoon 00:53:10.809 --> 00:53:12.610 shift or you go from that afternoon shift to 00:53:12.610 --> 00:53:14.489 the day shift and you short change that it's 00:53:14.489 --> 00:53:17.110 just awful right you get Four or five hours of 00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:20.190 sleep and you're expected to be at 100%. Very, 00:53:20.230 --> 00:53:21.969 very difficult. So there are certain things that 00:53:21.969 --> 00:53:24.429 we know that we don't want to do. I don't want 00:53:24.429 --> 00:53:26.750 to talk to juveniles in an interrogation setting. 00:53:27.489 --> 00:53:29.510 That prefrontal cortex is not set. They're very 00:53:29.510 --> 00:53:32.449 suggestible. They may just want to go home. If 00:53:32.449 --> 00:53:34.230 you look at the Aaron Crowe case or Michael Crowe 00:53:34.230 --> 00:53:36.550 case from many years ago, I think 20 years ago 00:53:36.550 --> 00:53:40.300 now, where basically he was. I don't want to 00:53:40.300 --> 00:53:41.940 use the word tortured, but there was psychological 00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:44.380 tactics utilized against him, multiple interrogators, 00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:47.659 a voice stress analysis test, false evidence 00:53:47.659 --> 00:53:50.900 ploys that basically made a 16 -year -old kid, 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.559 15 maybe, admit to killing his 16, 17 -year -old 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:56.679 sister. And it was terrible. And that's obviously 00:53:56.679 --> 00:53:59.059 an awful outcome that we would never want to 00:53:59.059 --> 00:54:00.519 see happen. I'm also going to make sure they're 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:03.760 not on drugs or James, most importantly, not 00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:07.119 withdrawing from drugs. Imagine a heroin addict 00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.360 that hasn't had a fix for eight, 10, 12 hours, 00:54:10.500 --> 00:54:13.199 they're going to tell you anything to get right 00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.119 if they think they can get out and get that next 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.280 fix. So suggestibility indexes, there's certain 00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:21.280 people that will just, yeah, they'll agree with 00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:22.880 anything. I mean, you've probably met those people 00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:24.539 where we have to be very, very careful about 00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:26.599 that. People that have had traumatic brain injuries 00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:30.599 can be more susceptible. I want to make sure 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:32.320 they're fed. I want to make sure they're watered. 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:33.679 I want to make sure they have bathroom breaks. 00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:35.679 I want to make sure they're comfortable because 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:39.409 I want to treat them. with respect above all 00:54:39.409 --> 00:54:42.210 else. My mentor once told me, he goes, every 00:54:42.210 --> 00:54:45.090 interaction, my goal should be to try to get 00:54:45.090 --> 00:54:47.849 a Christmas card the next year. And he was an 00:54:47.849 --> 00:54:50.809 FBI agent and it's amazing. He would get Christmas 00:54:50.809 --> 00:54:52.750 cards from people that admitted to murder, rape, 00:54:52.869 --> 00:54:55.530 robbery to him. They're in federal prison. They're 00:54:55.530 --> 00:54:57.130 sent into the field office. They're sending Christmas 00:54:57.130 --> 00:55:00.429 cards because he was so respectful. And you have 00:55:00.429 --> 00:55:03.329 to create a space where somebody feels safe enough 00:55:03.329 --> 00:55:07.369 to open up. Pressure does not... cause disclosure. 00:55:07.690 --> 00:55:09.570 I want you to think of this and James, I don't 00:55:09.570 --> 00:55:12.449 know if you're Catholic or not, but you can probably 00:55:12.449 --> 00:55:13.849 answer this question just from understanding 00:55:13.849 --> 00:55:16.989 why do people talk in a confessional? Why does 00:55:16.989 --> 00:55:20.130 the Catholic faith, why is it so effective in 00:55:20.130 --> 00:55:22.570 getting people to talk inside a confessional? 00:55:23.530 --> 00:55:26.389 Because they feel safe at that moment. They feel 00:55:26.389 --> 00:55:30.389 safe. What makes them feel safe? Anonymity. Anonymity, 00:55:30.429 --> 00:55:34.150 100%. What else? Well, they're in a place where 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:36.719 You know, supposedly a church is supposed to 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:39.639 be a safe haven as well. Yeah, they can get some 00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:41.519 type of salvation or whatever we want to call 00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:43.480 it, right? We get some professional guidance. 00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:48.059 There's that privacy aspect. You get this in 00:55:48.059 --> 00:55:49.980 doctor's offices. There's also legal protections 00:55:49.980 --> 00:55:53.840 many, many times that those disclosures, unless 00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.340 they're serious felonies, aren't made public. 00:55:56.980 --> 00:55:58.619 But if there was a microphone, like one of these 00:55:58.619 --> 00:56:01.139 fancy microphones that we have here, if it was 00:56:01.139 --> 00:56:02.980 in the confessional, how comfortable would we 00:56:02.980 --> 00:56:05.380 feel like talking? If it was being broadcasted 00:56:05.380 --> 00:56:08.960 live, probably not buried. If it was like a fishbowl 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:11.179 and everybody in the congregation could see a 00:56:11.179 --> 00:56:13.119 walk in and that type of stuff, would that be 00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:16.079 a problem? That'd be a huge problem. If we could 00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:17.960 see the priest, if we could see his reactions 00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:20.199 and maybe he furrowed his brow when you said 00:56:20.199 --> 00:56:22.059 that disclosure about that thing you did in Amsterdam 00:56:22.059 --> 00:56:24.260 when you were 15, right? He does that little 00:56:24.260 --> 00:56:27.119 look, right? Or if you make that disclosure and 00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:32.659 he says, really? Seriously, you did that? To 00:56:32.659 --> 00:56:35.340 me, that's what shuts people down is that body 00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:38.199 language, is that vocal tone, is that lack of 00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:41.440 opening things up. And I want people to feel 00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:42.960 like they're around the campfire with me, that 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.460 we're just having a discussion. And when you 00:56:45.460 --> 00:56:47.099 can create that space and you get them in the 00:56:47.099 --> 00:56:49.639 right headspace, emotional contagion is real. 00:56:49.739 --> 00:56:52.119 Calm leads to calm. I never want to see them 00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:55.059 upset. I never are them to see me upset or aggravated 00:56:55.059 --> 00:56:57.440 or anxious. I want them to have, see my vocal 00:56:57.440 --> 00:56:59.159 tone just like this. I want to have an amazing 00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:01.920 handshake with them. That's dry. Uh, that's warm. 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:04.059 That's at a 45 degree angle. That's a hold, not 00:57:04.059 --> 00:57:05.980 a shake with eye contact. I want to use their 00:57:05.980 --> 00:57:08.679 first name, not my title, not their title. Um, 00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:11.760 because that's when people feel that they're 00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:14.300 safe. And when people feel like they can tell 00:57:14.300 --> 00:57:17.679 you anything, they'll tell you everything. There 00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:20.980 are obviously so many examples of wrongful convictions. 00:57:21.579 --> 00:57:24.659 Central Park Five is a good example. Our current 00:57:24.659 --> 00:57:26.500 president called for the execution of all of 00:57:26.500 --> 00:57:27.679 them when it happened and they were actually 00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:31.500 innocent of that rape. But I mean, it is terrifying 00:57:31.500 --> 00:57:33.780 because like you said, when you see, you know, 00:57:33.780 --> 00:57:35.480 as in some of these documentaries, they actually 00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:37.880 show the video footage of these interrogations. 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:41.010 You see this exactly. the opposite of what you're 00:57:41.010 --> 00:57:42.949 talking about, how it should go. The sleep withdrawal 00:57:42.949 --> 00:57:45.650 was, you know, withholding sleep and the pressure 00:57:45.650 --> 00:57:48.409 and the, you know, the, the projection of what 00:57:48.409 --> 00:57:50.809 you should be saying to the point where, you 00:57:50.809 --> 00:57:53.130 know, if you say, we know this, I mean, if you 00:57:53.130 --> 00:57:55.530 repeat something enough, you know, on a, especially 00:57:55.530 --> 00:57:57.469 on a sleep deprived mind, it might even become 00:57:57.469 --> 00:57:59.610 the truth in their mind. And we have people confessing 00:57:59.610 --> 00:58:03.159 to things that they never actually did. So. you 00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:05.300 know talk to me about that what you know what 00:58:05.300 --> 00:58:07.719 do we have to be careful of in in regular law 00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:10.920 enforcement um communities so we don't create 00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:14.099 these wrongful convictions yeah diminishing culpability 00:58:14.099 --> 00:58:17.219 is a big thing uh and the innocence project has 00:58:17.219 --> 00:58:21.460 talked about this um you know i don't believe 00:58:21.460 --> 00:58:23.940 false confessions are as prevalent as certain 00:58:23.940 --> 00:58:25.860 people think they are but they do happen and 00:58:25.860 --> 00:58:27.579 many times when they happen they happen to the 00:58:27.579 --> 00:58:31.800 same detective or agent so That's where we need 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:34.340 to identify these agents that need to be trained 00:58:34.340 --> 00:58:36.679 up or held accountable because they're doing 00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:38.860 things that are not what the training that they 00:58:38.860 --> 00:58:41.599 get. You hear, oh, the read technique is terrible 00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:44.119 and this. The read technique does not teach you 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:46.559 to interrogate a juvenile for eight hours and 00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:49.179 bring in multiple detectives and bring in false 00:58:49.179 --> 00:58:51.659 evidence. If you tell a kid we have your DNA, 00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:55.320 what's the kid going to – I mean they're looking 00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:58.199 for a life preserver. So false evidence ploys 00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:01.239 have to be eliminated. And that's the distinction. 00:59:01.579 --> 00:59:03.380 Frazier versus Cup is the Supreme Court ruling 00:59:03.380 --> 00:59:05.760 that talks about you can lie to a suspect. Yeah, 00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:09.119 we can. And sometimes we do. OK, but I'm not 00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:11.539 going to say I have satellite footage of you 00:59:11.539 --> 00:59:14.559 there. I'm not going to say I have DNA. You know, 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:17.320 there's been detectives, sadly, and agents that 00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:19.860 would fault that in the past have falsified a 00:59:19.860 --> 00:59:25.179 DNA paperwork saying you did it. In their mind, 00:59:25.179 --> 00:59:26.699 their heart was in the right place because they 00:59:26.699 --> 00:59:28.900 had a bias that this person did that thing. And 00:59:28.900 --> 00:59:30.400 if I can only get them to admit it, they can 00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:32.599 lead me to the body. And that's a very, very 00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:34.280 dangerous thing when you're playing God in that 00:59:34.280 --> 00:59:36.199 room and you're breaking rules and regulations 00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:39.659 because you think you have. So you got to be 00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:41.280 very, very careful. False evidence, diminishing 00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:43.019 of culpability. And what I mean by culpability 00:59:43.019 --> 00:59:45.519 is when you start talking about treatment and 00:59:45.519 --> 00:59:46.800 we need to get you treatment, we need to get 00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:48.199 you treatment, we need to get treatment to somebody 00:59:48.199 --> 00:59:50.840 that's accused of murder. you know they're not 00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:52.420 getting treatment. You know they may get the 00:59:52.420 --> 00:59:54.340 death penalty. So why are you talking about treatment? 00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:57.099 So that can be very, very problematic. So for 00:59:57.099 --> 01:00:00.960 me, people talk about this type of approach should 01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:03.679 be outlawed, go to the peace model, go to the 01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:07.699 strategic use of evidence. There's a common ground. 01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:12.199 I still have to be able to theme people. And 01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:14.320 the thing I like to do, let me do a little exercise 01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:17.059 with you, James, if you don't mind. what do you 01:00:17.059 --> 01:00:20.579 think should happen to this person i guess what 01:00:20.579 --> 01:00:23.199 we we focus on is what should happen to this 01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:25.599 person and what i mean by that is let me give 01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:27.159 you two people and let me give you one bullet 01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:30.800 and you you can you can use it however you want 01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:32.539 on however you think is going to change history 01:00:32.539 --> 01:00:35.039 for the better and i get answers on both sides 01:00:35.039 --> 01:00:37.119 of this fence one's a very very short guy he 01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:41.420 was born in the late 1800s very introverted uh 01:00:41.420 --> 01:00:45.219 served his country uh in world war one was actually 01:00:45.769 --> 01:00:47.929 awarded a medal for the service of his country 01:00:47.929 --> 01:00:50.750 in World War I. His country obviously went through 01:00:50.750 --> 01:00:53.570 some dark economic times. He got into politics. 01:00:53.809 --> 01:00:56.070 He obviously became a much better presenter in 01:00:56.070 --> 01:00:59.289 public. Okay. When he took over his world's, 01:00:59.289 --> 01:01:03.090 you know, his country's juggernaut, he, if we 01:01:03.090 --> 01:01:05.429 just want to focus on burning this, he burned 01:01:05.429 --> 01:01:09.110 to death with his actions over a million people. 01:01:09.710 --> 01:01:13.210 Okay. So that's the short guy. Then we got the 01:01:13.210 --> 01:01:18.150 tall guy. Tall guy, Unbelievable wealth. Very, 01:01:18.230 --> 01:01:22.210 very religious. Used his wealth for his own means. 01:01:22.309 --> 01:01:26.510 Fought against one empire on the behest of the 01:01:26.510 --> 01:01:28.710 other empire and then switched roles about 20 01:01:28.710 --> 01:01:31.130 years later and fought for the other empire, 01:01:31.250 --> 01:01:33.989 for this empire. He was unbelievably tall. I 01:01:33.989 --> 01:01:35.489 mean, he would stand out on satellite footage, 01:01:35.650 --> 01:01:38.769 right? He fought in these battles. So it wasn't 01:01:38.769 --> 01:01:40.429 just all talk and it wasn't just religious, but 01:01:40.429 --> 01:01:43.369 he made up what many people consider to be 3%. 01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:47.760 of what the world would believe his group is. 01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:51.860 So he was very radical in his beliefs. So you've 01:01:51.860 --> 01:01:53.260 got one bullet, James. Who gets that bullet? 01:01:57.699 --> 01:02:00.300 And he caused the deaths of, let's just say, 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:03.440 30 ,000 people, if we look at a 20 -year period. 01:02:05.219 --> 01:02:07.480 I mean, again, it sounds like we're talking about 01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:13.309 two people that we're very familiar with. I mean, 01:02:13.329 --> 01:02:15.710 from sheer numbers, obviously, it would be the 01:02:15.710 --> 01:02:21.190 short turn of the century guy. But I mean, this 01:02:21.190 --> 01:02:24.809 is a kind of... Yeah, we're going deep here, 01:02:24.869 --> 01:02:26.550 James. I don't think you're expecting this today, 01:02:26.650 --> 01:02:30.010 right? Well, my whole thing is just to not to 01:02:30.010 --> 01:02:31.889 shy away from the question. I'm still holding 01:02:31.889 --> 01:02:33.730 the bullet and trying to figure this out. But 01:02:33.730 --> 01:02:37.179 it's reverse engineering. the thing beneath the 01:02:37.179 --> 01:02:39.239 thing in the first place and who is the air quotes 01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:42.219 bad guy. Because if you look at the story in 01:02:42.219 --> 01:02:45.039 the Middle East and the occupations and my country's 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:47.659 participation with, or if you look at a nation 01:02:47.659 --> 01:02:50.639 that's beaten down after a world war that they 01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:53.659 didn't do well in and now they're starving, you 01:02:53.659 --> 01:02:55.559 can see the origin of both, but I would still 01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:59.440 shoot the short guy. Okay. So you would shoot 01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:01.400 Harry S. Truman instead of George Washington? 01:03:02.260 --> 01:03:05.389 I thought it was Hitler. I know you thought it 01:03:05.389 --> 01:03:07.989 was Hitler and you thought it was Osama bin Laden. 01:03:08.130 --> 01:03:10.829 I did. And that's where confirmation bias kicks 01:03:10.829 --> 01:03:14.050 in, right? Absolutely. Where if I come into a 01:03:14.050 --> 01:03:17.230 situation and I think this person did it or they 01:03:17.230 --> 01:03:19.610 didn't do it, I'm going to view everything through 01:03:19.610 --> 01:03:21.289 that prism, right? Whether it be punishment, 01:03:21.469 --> 01:03:23.780 whether it be how I should talk to them. But 01:03:23.780 --> 01:03:25.719 then let's take this exercise the next way because, 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:28.179 look, George Washington fought for the French 01:03:28.179 --> 01:03:31.219 before he fought for the US with the French help. 01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:36.139 He was 3%. Patriots were 3 % of the American 01:03:36.139 --> 01:03:39.099 colonists. He was very, very rich. He was very 01:03:39.099 --> 01:03:42.840 fervent in his religious beliefs. So there's 01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:45.860 a lot of parallels there, right? Obviously. I'm 01:03:45.860 --> 01:03:48.159 not going to go too deep with that. But Harry 01:03:48.159 --> 01:03:51.980 S. Truman, when he took over in early 1945 after 01:03:51.980 --> 01:03:56.519 FDR died, he authorized multiple fire bombings 01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:58.800 of Japanese cities using napalm on basically 01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:02.500 wooden civilian centers that created vacuums 01:04:02.500 --> 01:04:04.880 of fire, right? And when that didn't work, we 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:06.460 harnessed the power of the sun and dropped it 01:04:06.460 --> 01:04:10.920 on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? So I sit there 01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:13.500 and say, okay, now we've identified who this 01:04:13.500 --> 01:04:16.469 person is, Harry S. Truman. How would you interrogate 01:04:16.469 --> 01:04:20.030 Harry S. Truman? And for me, when I talk about 01:04:20.030 --> 01:04:21.570 this, I would be his buddy. That's the acronym 01:04:21.570 --> 01:04:25.190 I like to use. And it's blame other people, understand 01:04:25.190 --> 01:04:27.789 where they're coming from, not agreeing with, 01:04:27.969 --> 01:04:30.969 diminish the impact of their actions, not their 01:04:30.969 --> 01:04:32.929 culpability, demonstrate tactical awareness through 01:04:32.929 --> 01:04:35.530 the use of stories, and then focus on their why 01:04:35.530 --> 01:04:40.269 in order to shape an understanding. So if you 01:04:40.269 --> 01:04:43.349 were Harry, I'd say, Harry, look, we were isolationists. 01:04:43.349 --> 01:04:44.670 We were trying to stay out of the war. We were 01:04:45.170 --> 01:04:49.289 providing material, but that was it. Since Teddy 01:04:49.289 --> 01:04:51.010 Roosevelt, we were trying to stay in the Western 01:04:51.010 --> 01:04:54.190 hemisphere, Monroe Doctrine type stuff. And then 01:04:54.190 --> 01:04:56.510 all of a sudden, what happened on December 7th? 01:04:56.670 --> 01:04:59.449 The Japanese changed all that by killing 3 ,000 01:04:59.449 --> 01:05:02.610 of our soldiers, sailors, and airmen. Of course 01:05:02.610 --> 01:05:04.610 we had to fight. And I understand where you're 01:05:04.610 --> 01:05:05.929 coming from because you had to write letters 01:05:05.929 --> 01:05:09.050 back to the American widows and mothers and fathers 01:05:09.050 --> 01:05:11.289 that had lost their sons and daughters at Peleliu 01:05:11.289 --> 01:05:15.800 and Iwo Jima. and Okinawa, and you saw the Japanese 01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:19.019 empire was going to fight to the end. And then 01:05:19.019 --> 01:05:21.480 I would diminish impact by saying, Harry, you 01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:24.980 saved lives. Look at how many people were going 01:05:24.980 --> 01:05:28.460 to die if we had to take a million of our soldiers, 01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:29.940 sailors, and airmen and go to mainland Japan 01:05:29.940 --> 01:05:34.260 and fight on the main island of Japan. It would 01:05:34.260 --> 01:05:37.300 have been millions of people on both sides. And 01:05:37.300 --> 01:05:39.000 think about what would have happened if the Russians 01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:41.579 would have continued to come down into Indochina 01:05:41.579 --> 01:05:43.699 while this was all taking place. It would have 01:05:43.699 --> 01:05:46.320 been awful. And then I would demonstrate tactical 01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:48.019 empathy by saying, Harry, it's kind of like, 01:05:48.039 --> 01:05:50.179 you know, if you were a surgeon late at night 01:05:50.179 --> 01:05:55.179 and you get a call, horrific car accident, there's 01:05:55.179 --> 01:05:57.960 a three -year -old kid that has a leg partially 01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:01.280 amputated. And you have to come into the OR and 01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:02.860 you're gonna make a terrible decision. Am I gonna 01:06:02.860 --> 01:06:04.880 take the leg? Am I gonna try to fix the leg? 01:06:05.500 --> 01:06:08.280 If I take the leg, I know that the boy is going 01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:11.119 to live. He's going to have to have some type 01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:14.260 of device to walk, but he's going to live. And 01:06:14.260 --> 01:06:15.780 you make that tough decision to take that leg. 01:06:15.900 --> 01:06:17.699 It was the best of the worst decisions. And that's 01:06:17.699 --> 01:06:19.860 what dropping those A -bombs were. It was the 01:06:19.860 --> 01:06:21.500 best of a worst decision where you saved lives. 01:06:21.579 --> 01:06:23.079 You made a tough choice because the buck stops 01:06:23.079 --> 01:06:25.599 there, Harry. And then I'd focus on the why. 01:06:25.940 --> 01:06:28.840 And I'd say, Harry, above all else, any other 01:06:28.840 --> 01:06:31.000 person in the history of time that had harnessed 01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:34.380 godlike powers like you had for five years unabated. 01:06:34.750 --> 01:06:36.489 with the atomic weapons would have tried to take 01:06:36.489 --> 01:06:38.949 over the world what did you immediately do you 01:06:38.949 --> 01:06:42.889 rebuilt it you immediately rebuilt europe you 01:06:42.889 --> 01:06:45.510 immediately rebuilt japan and you were the policeman 01:06:45.510 --> 01:06:48.570 because you're a great man that's how do you 01:06:48.570 --> 01:06:50.409 interrogate harry s truman for dropping two atomic 01:06:50.409 --> 01:06:52.409 bombs it's the same way you'd interrogate somebody 01:06:52.409 --> 01:06:54.070 for shooting somebody for somebody stabbing somebody 01:06:54.070 --> 01:06:56.050 you wouldn't pound on the table you wouldn't 01:06:56.050 --> 01:06:58.489 be disrespectful you would focus on their why 01:06:58.489 --> 01:07:01.849 because james we all have a why the the one thing 01:07:01.849 --> 01:07:04.280 that You know, in grad school, I would go down 01:07:04.280 --> 01:07:06.239 to the city lock up in St. Louis and it was the 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:07.719 highest paying job I could get on college. It's 01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:09.659 the only reason I took it. But I would go down 01:07:09.659 --> 01:07:13.179 there and I'd interview arrestees and murder, 01:07:13.260 --> 01:07:15.920 rape, robbery, prostitution. And I would try 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:17.739 to get a urine drop for them and understand what 01:07:17.739 --> 01:07:19.099 drugs they took. And I'd give them a Snickers 01:07:19.099 --> 01:07:22.980 and a sun drop. And I got paid by the hour. So 01:07:22.980 --> 01:07:25.039 I just wanted to hear their stories. And it was 01:07:25.039 --> 01:07:27.420 amazing, right? It was amazing to hear their. 01:07:28.269 --> 01:07:30.610 their life trajectory and amazing to hear their 01:07:30.610 --> 01:07:33.050 choose your own adventure and they didn't have 01:07:33.050 --> 01:07:34.750 a dad they didn't have a mom they had horrible 01:07:34.750 --> 01:07:38.030 schooling they had you know a drug addicted parent 01:07:38.619 --> 01:07:40.960 They were molested. Whatever it was, there was 01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:43.900 always a trigger that caused them to end up in 01:07:43.900 --> 01:07:45.920 front of me in that jail. And it doesn't make 01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:47.559 it right, but what I think it did after talking 01:07:47.559 --> 01:07:49.380 to thousands of people is you get this pattern 01:07:49.380 --> 01:07:51.679 recognition of, one, we're all the same, and 01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:53.440 we all didn't have the great opportunities that 01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.219 I know I had and maybe you had, right, to live 01:07:56.219 --> 01:07:58.099 the way that we live right now. So I think that 01:07:58.099 --> 01:07:59.800 shaped a little bit of empathy that when you're 01:07:59.800 --> 01:08:01.920 in the room, you can have that tactical empathy 01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:04.440 with the people and understand, look. Something 01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:07.519 went with this trajectory that caused this person 01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:10.059 to be here. And it's hard to do that. It's hard 01:08:10.059 --> 01:08:14.639 to not be just so mad at somebody that did horrible 01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:18.000 things to infants. But if you do that, you're 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:19.560 not going to get their what and you're definitely 01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:23.220 not going to get their why. So for me, having 01:08:23.220 --> 01:08:26.020 those experiences early on in life, I think really, 01:08:26.140 --> 01:08:28.920 really helped me kind of be able to talk to these 01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:33.949 monsters. I wrote my second book just over a 01:08:33.949 --> 01:08:37.010 year ago. And one of the core themes is generational 01:08:37.010 --> 01:08:39.649 trauma, because I really wanted to storytell 01:08:39.649 --> 01:08:41.949 that there are dominoes that are falling. If 01:08:41.949 --> 01:08:44.829 you go down our timeline, I would argue, if not 01:08:44.829 --> 01:08:49.250 World War II, certainly prior to that. And the 01:08:49.250 --> 01:08:51.310 beautiful thing about having these conversations 01:08:51.310 --> 01:08:53.689 today and using this technology for good, the 01:08:53.689 --> 01:08:55.970 way we are at the moment, is that our generation 01:08:55.970 --> 01:08:59.020 can look at these dominoes. hold the damn thing 01:08:59.020 --> 01:09:01.739 up and stop it falling from our kids onto our 01:09:01.739 --> 01:09:03.960 kids. And I think that there's a lot of areas 01:09:03.960 --> 01:09:05.939 from homelessness to addiction to sex work. I 01:09:05.939 --> 01:09:08.279 mean, you name it, places where people struggle, 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.079 obesity, where we can really turn this around. 01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:13.800 What's interesting though, is when I've asked 01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:17.619 people in the psychology world about sexual predators, 01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:21.119 I've had a kind of mixed review. Some say, yes, 01:09:21.260 --> 01:09:24.100 there's a common denominator of sexual trauma 01:09:24.100 --> 01:09:26.850 in their past. Others have said, no, this was 01:09:26.850 --> 01:09:30.109 not the same case. What have you seen with this 01:09:30.109 --> 01:09:32.770 incredible lens that you have as far as common 01:09:32.770 --> 01:09:35.850 denominator is in their upbringing? Yeah, that's 01:09:35.850 --> 01:09:39.350 a great question. So the research that we operate 01:09:39.350 --> 01:09:45.850 on a lot of is about 24 % of people that molested 01:09:45.850 --> 01:09:48.810 individuals had something bad happen to them 01:09:48.810 --> 01:09:51.859 from a sexual standpoint. But we also see that 01:09:51.859 --> 01:09:55.039 number dramatically increase when they were also 01:09:55.039 --> 01:09:58.920 physically abused. So is it causality? Absolutely 01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:01.020 not. Is there some correlation? Yes. But there's 01:10:01.020 --> 01:10:02.760 just as much correlation with physical abuse. 01:10:02.859 --> 01:10:05.819 It's almost as if their role model, the person 01:10:05.819 --> 01:10:08.159 that they look up to, their father, their uncle, 01:10:08.300 --> 01:10:10.180 whoever did this horrific abuse, that's what 01:10:10.180 --> 01:10:12.380 causes and shatters their understanding. And 01:10:12.380 --> 01:10:14.079 sometimes it locks them in that age where that 01:10:14.079 --> 01:10:16.579 bad thing happened. And when they get to that 01:10:16.579 --> 01:10:18.600 age, they almost go back to that age to try to 01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:20.420 understand why did this happen? I mean, it's 01:10:20.420 --> 01:10:24.939 sad to say that. So yeah, just that victimization 01:10:24.939 --> 01:10:28.000 in general that happened to them is prevalent. 01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:30.520 But when people think it's a vampire complex, 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:32.899 that if something happens to somebody that they're 01:10:32.899 --> 01:10:34.579 going to go down that road is absolutely not 01:10:34.579 --> 01:10:38.159 the case. So definitely would want to dispel 01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:40.199 that. But it's a very, very hard thing to research 01:10:40.199 --> 01:10:42.220 too, because you're asking people to self -report 01:10:42.220 --> 01:10:45.359 because most sexual assaults are not reported. 01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:48.119 most sexual assaults happen to somebody that 01:10:48.119 --> 01:10:50.380 knows who the offender was. And that's the scary 01:10:50.380 --> 01:10:52.439 part is we're so worried about stranger danger, 01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:56.239 James, is that it's happening in our house. It's 01:10:56.239 --> 01:10:58.199 happening with the people that we trust our kids 01:10:58.199 --> 01:11:01.380 with. And these individuals that do this, they 01:11:01.380 --> 01:11:03.399 are very high level of what they do. They are 01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:06.180 almost like, if you want to think of counterintelligence, 01:11:06.199 --> 01:11:07.619 when we learn counterintelligence for spies, 01:11:08.060 --> 01:11:10.460 you know, how they spot, assess someone, how 01:11:10.460 --> 01:11:12.140 they determine vulnerabilities, how they approach 01:11:12.140 --> 01:11:14.340 them. That's what a... You know, a pedophile, 01:11:14.420 --> 01:11:16.180 that's what a child sex offender, hebophilia, 01:11:16.239 --> 01:11:18.100 that's what these people are doing. They're looking 01:11:18.100 --> 01:11:19.720 for a weak link. They're looking for somebody 01:11:19.720 --> 01:11:21.579 who is, I don't want to use the word bad victim, 01:11:21.659 --> 01:11:24.039 but maybe that won't be believed. They're looking 01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:25.699 for somebody that maybe doesn't have that parent 01:11:25.699 --> 01:11:28.479 in that type of situation or at least a parent 01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:30.899 that's working and not around. So they're spotting, 01:11:30.899 --> 01:11:32.359 they're assessing, they're taking advantage, 01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:34.520 they're exchanging in secrets. And that's what 01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:36.600 makes our job in this space very, very difficult 01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:38.079 because you're dealing with a high level predator. 01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:40.539 It's very, very tough to catch. So we do catch 01:11:40.539 --> 01:11:43.119 them. That's obviously why we always like to 01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:44.579 use polygraph because we may never get another 01:11:44.579 --> 01:11:46.600 opportunity to kind of put this down. So we want 01:11:46.600 --> 01:11:49.260 to have all hands on deck when we do this. So 01:11:49.260 --> 01:11:52.239 technology has obviously made this much more 01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:54.979 problematic in that now you can do your best 01:11:54.979 --> 01:11:57.590 to keep the people. Outside your house, you can 01:11:57.590 --> 01:11:59.229 have the great security systems. You cannot do 01:11:59.229 --> 01:12:01.649 the sleepovers. And what are you doing? You're, 01:12:01.649 --> 01:12:04.170 you're, you're given this phone and you're letting 01:12:04.170 --> 01:12:07.210 them go into these applications to play games 01:12:07.210 --> 01:12:10.569 in which there's many 30, 40 year old men in 01:12:10.569 --> 01:12:12.850 there that now have chat functions. And then 01:12:12.850 --> 01:12:14.470 they can take those kids offline to Snapchat 01:12:14.470 --> 01:12:15.930 or wherever the case may be. And now they got 01:12:15.930 --> 01:12:19.130 the end to end encryption. And it's not just 01:12:19.130 --> 01:12:21.890 somebody that's looking to actually victimize 01:12:21.890 --> 01:12:24.130 them, but that's where you start seeing sadly 01:12:24.130 --> 01:12:27.479 the, the extortion. Where they exchange in the 01:12:27.479 --> 01:12:29.180 photos and then, hey, you need to give me $500 01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:31.699 or $1 ,000. And then sadly, these kids are committing 01:12:31.699 --> 01:12:35.659 suicide. We just had this happen with Mr. Guffey 01:12:35.659 --> 01:12:38.159 here. And he's since got an office and he's really 01:12:38.159 --> 01:12:40.659 fighting against this Brandon Guffey here in 01:12:40.659 --> 01:12:43.319 South Carolina. But sadly, his son took his life 01:12:43.319 --> 01:12:47.199 within 45 minutes of this taking place. He thought 01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:49.859 he was talking to a 17, 18 -year -old girl. And 01:12:49.859 --> 01:12:53.579 unfortunately, it was a scammer overseas. This 01:12:53.579 --> 01:12:56.899 device is the outlet to the world and you need 01:12:56.899 --> 01:12:58.920 to put those protections on it. And that's why 01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:00.859 it goes back to what we talked about earlier 01:13:00.859 --> 01:13:04.340 with the UK and Australia is I hate seeing governmental 01:13:04.340 --> 01:13:07.020 control of things like this, but it's gotten 01:13:07.020 --> 01:13:09.880 to the point where the manufacturers of these 01:13:09.880 --> 01:13:12.000 devices and the manufacturers of these apps, 01:13:12.140 --> 01:13:15.500 they know where the money's made and they have 01:13:15.500 --> 01:13:18.819 a need and a want to make money. And a lot of 01:13:18.819 --> 01:13:21.560 that involves privacy. So I don't want to paint 01:13:21.560 --> 01:13:23.300 a broad blood brush and say that these applications 01:13:23.300 --> 01:13:25.340 are not helpful to law enforcement because many 01:13:25.340 --> 01:13:29.079 of them are dramatically helpful to us. But there's 01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:31.920 these internet crimes against children's task 01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:33.439 forces, and you've got one of the best. You've 01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:34.979 got three of them there in Florida that are amazing. 01:13:35.500 --> 01:13:37.140 But these internet crimes against children's 01:13:37.140 --> 01:13:38.899 task forces are just overwhelmed with these cyber 01:13:38.899 --> 01:13:41.300 tips because, you know, these people get on. 01:13:41.710 --> 01:13:43.850 the various apps and send, you know, pictures 01:13:43.850 --> 01:13:46.329 of themselves and they're underage. And, you 01:13:46.329 --> 01:13:48.329 know, every one of those cases is going to get 01:13:48.329 --> 01:13:49.569 referred and it's going to have to be looked 01:13:49.569 --> 01:13:52.970 at. Imagine the vicarious trauma of these investigators 01:13:52.970 --> 01:13:54.949 that have to actually look at the images. I talk 01:13:54.949 --> 01:13:57.170 about it, but I never have to look at the image. 01:13:57.590 --> 01:13:59.689 And we're trying to develop the ability to not 01:13:59.689 --> 01:14:03.670 have to look at all the images, but that is just, 01:14:03.710 --> 01:14:07.310 you talk about. messing with people. It got me. 01:14:07.489 --> 01:14:09.489 I mean, it definitely stung me because I didn't 01:14:09.489 --> 01:14:12.430 realize it. But after doing that two, three, 01:14:12.510 --> 01:14:14.289 four times a week, rationalizing, minimizing, 01:14:14.390 --> 01:14:16.170 projecting behavior with these type of offenders, 01:14:16.510 --> 01:14:19.550 luckily I had a good support group that goes, 01:14:19.630 --> 01:14:22.430 Brad, are you doing all right? And I wasn't. 01:14:22.689 --> 01:14:24.810 And there are certain things that I would do. 01:14:25.189 --> 01:14:27.449 I would wear the same shirt on every op and I'd 01:14:27.449 --> 01:14:28.989 take that shirt off before I went in the house. 01:14:29.010 --> 01:14:30.779 I'd launder it the next day. Kind of like what 01:14:30.779 --> 01:14:32.880 medical examiners, when they leave their, you 01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:36.699 know, their, what they use in the operating room, 01:14:36.739 --> 01:14:38.520 the procedure room, they leave that cloak. They 01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:40.920 don't take that home, obviously. I would play 01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:43.829 a game. on my phone, like risk or chess or whatever, 01:14:43.930 --> 01:14:45.829 something I had to be very present and analytical 01:14:45.829 --> 01:14:47.789 with. I would never write my reports at home. 01:14:48.010 --> 01:14:51.289 I'd never talk about it. Obviously with my kids, 01:14:51.369 --> 01:14:52.930 I'd talk about it with people outside of work 01:14:52.930 --> 01:14:55.630 that understood. And then I would go do a jujitsu 01:14:55.630 --> 01:14:57.689 session. That's why I got into jujitsu 11 years 01:14:57.689 --> 01:14:59.489 ago was to deal with this because I had to be 01:14:59.489 --> 01:15:01.649 100 % present or you get choked out or somebody 01:15:01.649 --> 01:15:03.710 really does a bad thing to one of your joints. 01:15:04.770 --> 01:15:07.189 So for me, two or three times a week, getting 01:15:07.189 --> 01:15:09.670 out there in the gi and My wife calls it rolling 01:15:09.670 --> 01:15:11.890 around with other sweaty guys that are going 01:15:11.890 --> 01:15:14.090 through a midlife crisis, whatever. That's what 01:15:14.090 --> 01:15:16.409 I needed. So to me, that's how I coped with it. 01:15:16.449 --> 01:15:18.689 But lowering your ego and realizing there's very, 01:15:18.729 --> 01:15:20.470 very smart people out there. And if you start 01:15:20.470 --> 01:15:22.050 to feel that, or if you start to see that in 01:15:22.050 --> 01:15:23.609 somebody else, see something, say something and 01:15:23.609 --> 01:15:25.550 intervene, because we never want to see what 01:15:25.550 --> 01:15:27.770 you were just talking about with a 26 year old, 01:15:27.770 --> 01:15:30.770 26 year veteran, you know, who should be enjoying 01:15:30.770 --> 01:15:34.829 the twilight of his career. Absolutely. One thing 01:15:34.829 --> 01:15:36.789 that really struck me as well on that theme. 01:15:37.960 --> 01:15:40.880 Having these deep conversations with so many 01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:46.359 people now is, I was amazed. And a lot of us 01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:48.560 that are drawn to wearing a uniform, to being 01:15:48.560 --> 01:15:51.779 in the professions that we do, there's an understanding 01:15:51.779 --> 01:15:53.739 now a lot of us have had struggles when we were 01:15:53.739 --> 01:15:55.840 younger. And that's what leads us into this beautiful 01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:58.399 profession. If left unaddressed, could definitely 01:15:58.399 --> 01:16:00.880 be a fracture in our foundation. If talked about 01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:03.319 and processed, I truly believe it becomes a strength. 01:16:03.380 --> 01:16:07.560 I really do. But I was blown away how many men 01:16:07.560 --> 01:16:11.819 had been sexually abused. When you entered this 01:16:11.819 --> 01:16:15.340 whole world, what was the prevalence? Was it 01:16:15.340 --> 01:16:17.899 more than you realized? Were you surprised at 01:16:17.899 --> 01:16:21.460 the beginning of this? I was surprised by the 01:16:21.460 --> 01:16:24.479 prevalence of that. So yes, there were certain 01:16:24.479 --> 01:16:26.720 stereotypes, the presence of that, but also the 01:16:26.720 --> 01:16:30.779 presence of female offenders. Some of my worst 01:16:30.779 --> 01:16:34.189 offenders were female offenders. We used to view 01:16:34.189 --> 01:16:35.909 that as the unicorn. You know, you're not going 01:16:35.909 --> 01:16:39.229 to see a female offender. Where I first started 01:16:39.229 --> 01:16:41.189 seeing that was in traumatic brain injuries. 01:16:41.289 --> 01:16:43.449 So what we would traditionally call shaken babies 01:16:43.449 --> 01:16:46.770 had to work a lot of those cases. And I would 01:16:46.770 --> 01:16:49.930 see that and that made sense. But when I started 01:16:49.930 --> 01:16:52.069 seeing that on CSAM cases and I started seeing 01:16:52.069 --> 01:16:56.010 that, you know, females traveling. to engage 01:16:56.010 --> 01:16:59.390 in this. I mean, we all see the high school teacher 01:16:59.390 --> 01:17:02.390 with the freshmen and that, and you see that 01:17:02.390 --> 01:17:04.329 and that's what makes the news and so on and 01:17:04.329 --> 01:17:06.149 so forth. But I didn't really think I'd see that 01:17:06.149 --> 01:17:09.569 prevalency of it, but that shocked me. And then 01:17:09.569 --> 01:17:12.189 also, yeah, the numbers of when I would talk 01:17:12.189 --> 01:17:15.149 to a male offender for them to say, hey, when 01:17:15.149 --> 01:17:17.109 I was 10, this happened. When I was 12, this 01:17:17.109 --> 01:17:19.250 happened. And there was a lot of pattern recognition 01:17:19.250 --> 01:17:22.189 there is that access is everything, okay? Is 01:17:22.189 --> 01:17:25.279 that... Back then, most of these kids didn't 01:17:25.279 --> 01:17:28.039 have cell phones. So the access came from, we 01:17:28.039 --> 01:17:30.239 would stereotype Boy Scouts and things like this. 01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:34.100 But when it came to boys, you typically will 01:17:34.100 --> 01:17:38.119 trust a male to be with a male at a higher prevalence 01:17:38.119 --> 01:17:41.119 than obviously a male with a female. Who's going 01:17:41.119 --> 01:17:47.399 to let a male take a girl someplace? That's odd, 01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.300 like a parent taking somebody else's kid. It's 01:17:50.300 --> 01:17:53.050 not as... problematic in most people's eyes to 01:17:53.050 --> 01:17:55.710 have a male take care of a boy. And that's the 01:17:55.710 --> 01:17:57.729 problem is they tended to get more access with 01:17:57.729 --> 01:17:59.750 that. So that's something that people to be careful 01:17:59.750 --> 01:18:02.069 about is who are you giving access to your kids? 01:18:02.529 --> 01:18:04.710 Because you have to have access to be able to 01:18:04.710 --> 01:18:07.829 commit the act. So, and, and the sad part is 01:18:07.829 --> 01:18:09.630 this happens a lot of times in people that are 01:18:09.630 --> 01:18:12.550 in desperate need. They, they, they get a babysitter 01:18:12.550 --> 01:18:14.489 on a whim because they don't have enough money. 01:18:15.210 --> 01:18:17.930 They have a extended family member watch the 01:18:17.930 --> 01:18:20.890 kid cause they don't have enough money. You know, 01:18:20.890 --> 01:18:23.630 so sometimes it's unfortunate because they're 01:18:23.630 --> 01:18:26.489 working 60 hours a week and they're not in the 01:18:26.489 --> 01:18:28.989 home to watch what's really going on. But if 01:18:28.989 --> 01:18:30.949 there's one thing anybody can change, stop the 01:18:30.949 --> 01:18:34.109 sleepovers. And not just from parents, but from 01:18:34.109 --> 01:18:37.229 older siblings. We hear a lot of that as far 01:18:37.229 --> 01:18:39.630 as a first offense might have happened, you know, 01:18:39.630 --> 01:18:41.350 on a sleepover. And just also understand your 01:18:41.350 --> 01:18:42.989 kids will sleep to a fire alarm. You probably 01:18:42.989 --> 01:18:45.229 understand this in the fire service, James, but, 01:18:45.229 --> 01:18:48.609 you know, kids in their early years. they sleep 01:18:48.609 --> 01:18:50.989 so deeply, right? That I don't know how many 01:18:50.989 --> 01:18:52.609 times somebody's went in a house and you've had 01:18:52.609 --> 01:18:55.470 to go get the kid because they're sleeping, right? 01:18:55.569 --> 01:18:57.550 So these offenders know that and unfortunately 01:18:57.550 --> 01:18:59.789 they take advantage of that. So there's no outcry 01:18:59.789 --> 01:19:02.210 that could be made because the kids sleep through 01:19:02.210 --> 01:19:03.989 it, you know? So I guess there's a blessing and 01:19:03.989 --> 01:19:05.489 a curse. They slept through it, but it still 01:19:05.489 --> 01:19:11.430 happened. So sleepovers, don't do them. One more 01:19:11.430 --> 01:19:13.529 area, then we'll shift over to the protection 01:19:13.529 --> 01:19:16.729 side of it. One thing that really doesn't sit 01:19:16.729 --> 01:19:18.289 well with me, and it's obviously very topical 01:19:18.289 --> 01:19:20.289 at the moment because we have a list that's probably 01:19:20.289 --> 01:19:22.510 got a lot of sex offenders on it that we're still 01:19:22.510 --> 01:19:25.270 not being told who they are, or more importantly, 01:19:25.369 --> 01:19:27.750 that they are being sent through a court process 01:19:27.750 --> 01:19:31.229 as we speak. But one of the most jarring hypocrisies 01:19:31.229 --> 01:19:35.600 to me is the Michael Jackson case. Every element 01:19:35.600 --> 01:19:38.560 of grooming from children being in the bedroom 01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:41.779 to sending parents away to testimonies, outcries 01:19:41.779 --> 01:19:44.220 later on in life. And again, people are kind 01:19:44.220 --> 01:19:46.000 of discrediting that. But I mean, how often does 01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:48.600 that happen where it is suppressed? It is buried 01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:52.699 down. So kind of with that lens, some of these 01:19:52.699 --> 01:19:57.800 high profile wealthy people being able to get 01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:01.180 away from the same criminality that if they were. 01:20:01.789 --> 01:20:03.590 most of these people that ended up sitting in 01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:06.449 front of you were actually, you know, put through 01:20:06.449 --> 01:20:09.949 the justice system. Yeah. You're going to see 01:20:09.949 --> 01:20:12.109 that the offenders, the way I like to kind of 01:20:12.109 --> 01:20:15.909 look at it, the analogy I use is when you see 01:20:15.909 --> 01:20:18.109 a great white shark, you think it's scary, right? 01:20:18.210 --> 01:20:20.609 Like it's a great white shark, right? That's 01:20:20.609 --> 01:20:22.050 going to bite me. It's going to eat me. People 01:20:22.050 --> 01:20:23.590 look at that and they think this is vicious. 01:20:24.829 --> 01:20:27.550 But really when people get attacked by a great 01:20:27.550 --> 01:20:28.630 white shark, it's because they're doing something 01:20:28.630 --> 01:20:31.420 stupid. They're wearing probably a you know, 01:20:31.420 --> 01:20:35.939 a black wetsuit and they're surfing in a very 01:20:35.939 --> 01:20:39.619 dark, murky water during dawn and dusk when it's 01:20:39.619 --> 01:20:41.539 their prime feeding hours and they're kicking 01:20:41.539 --> 01:20:43.279 their feet as if they're wounded prey. Like, 01:20:43.300 --> 01:20:45.140 I'm not going to say that's the Darwin Awards, 01:20:45.340 --> 01:20:47.539 but you're putting yourself out there to be attacked. 01:20:48.100 --> 01:20:50.739 But Jacques Cousteau said long ago, the world's 01:20:50.739 --> 01:20:53.279 most dangerous shark was the oceanic white tip 01:20:53.279 --> 01:20:55.880 because it was an open water shark. When it saw 01:20:55.880 --> 01:20:57.699 its prey, it went for its prey and it didn't 01:20:57.699 --> 01:21:00.229 look scary. That's the kind of offender that's 01:21:00.229 --> 01:21:03.789 scary to us is that they blend in. They don't 01:21:03.789 --> 01:21:06.310 look problematic. They can groom somebody because 01:21:06.310 --> 01:21:09.109 they don't look like that Chester person with 01:21:09.109 --> 01:21:11.850 the horns. We put a halo on them. They walk amongst 01:21:11.850 --> 01:21:14.050 us. And that's why we got to be very careful. 01:21:14.130 --> 01:21:16.430 And I think, yeah, fame obviously might've helped. 01:21:16.489 --> 01:21:18.789 And who knows, Michael Jackson, I don't know. 01:21:18.890 --> 01:21:23.270 I don't want to make assertions. But yeah, as 01:21:23.270 --> 01:21:25.390 people that are famous, they get that benefit. 01:21:25.569 --> 01:21:28.529 They don't look scary. Okay. And that's the problem 01:21:28.529 --> 01:21:31.090 is that offenders don't look scary. We always 01:21:31.090 --> 01:21:33.369 used to kid about that. And we work a lot of 01:21:33.369 --> 01:21:35.409 these cases. You'd think you could see the disturbance 01:21:35.409 --> 01:21:38.149 in the force, right? When you see somebody, but 01:21:38.149 --> 01:21:40.409 when somebody looks odd and they act odd and 01:21:40.409 --> 01:21:42.670 they're awkward, that's not the person I'm scared 01:21:42.670 --> 01:21:44.069 of because they're not going to be able to socially 01:21:44.069 --> 01:21:46.489 engineer a situation because anybody's going 01:21:46.489 --> 01:21:48.270 to pick up on that person's weird. That person's 01:21:48.270 --> 01:21:50.590 off. Jenny's not hanging around with that guy. 01:21:51.130 --> 01:21:53.550 The person we're worried about is the Ted Bundy 01:21:53.550 --> 01:21:57.880 type, right? That looks. fine, you know, handsome, 01:21:57.960 --> 01:21:59.420 whatever the case may be. I mean, Ted Bundy made 01:21:59.420 --> 01:22:01.819 a great first impression, right? He made a terrible 01:22:01.819 --> 01:22:04.319 second impression, but he made a horrible first 01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:06.800 impression or a great first impression. So that's 01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:10.239 what I'd say about people is, yeah, people do 01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:15.500 get a benefit of maybe socioeconomic status that 01:22:15.500 --> 01:22:17.699 we need to be very, very careful about. Don't 01:22:17.699 --> 01:22:21.680 trust your gut when it comes to walking down 01:22:21.680 --> 01:22:23.979 an alley late at night. Police officers, trust 01:22:23.979 --> 01:22:26.119 your gut when, hey, I should call for backup, 01:22:26.239 --> 01:22:29.319 something's not right. That mind -body connection, 01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:31.439 trust that in that moment, but don't trust it 01:22:31.439 --> 01:22:33.340 in personal and professional relationships because 01:22:33.340 --> 01:22:35.960 when people say, I trust my gut in those types 01:22:35.960 --> 01:22:37.439 of situations, that's not what your gut should 01:22:37.439 --> 01:22:40.420 be used for. That's when we get in very, very 01:22:40.420 --> 01:22:42.300 big problems when we put those horns and halos 01:22:42.300 --> 01:22:45.159 on people too quickly. Because we stay consistent 01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.039 with that initial placing of those items upon 01:22:48.039 --> 01:22:50.939 somebody's head. So I try not to, I make a great 01:22:50.939 --> 01:22:52.960 first impression, but I try not to look at someone's 01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:55.140 first impression. I try to have multiple interactions 01:22:55.140 --> 01:22:57.720 because it's very hard for a narcissist, a gaslighter, 01:22:57.739 --> 01:22:59.960 a bad person, whatever the case may be, somebody 01:22:59.960 --> 01:23:03.739 with bad intent to engage in multiple, to stay 01:23:03.739 --> 01:23:05.619 consistent with that. Same thing with lying. 01:23:05.720 --> 01:23:07.819 It's hard for people to stay consistent. Where 01:23:07.819 --> 01:23:10.239 you have to be afraid of, James, now is we used 01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:11.800 to put our diaries under our bed. Now we put 01:23:11.800 --> 01:23:14.220 them online. So anybody out there that's on a 01:23:14.220 --> 01:23:17.159 dating service that gets scammed, one of the 01:23:17.159 --> 01:23:19.020 main ways they get scammed is because of the 01:23:19.020 --> 01:23:21.340 familiarity that they have with that person. 01:23:21.399 --> 01:23:24.000 That person is becoming the mythical Prince Charming 01:23:24.000 --> 01:23:26.579 to you because they know what makes you tick. 01:23:26.640 --> 01:23:28.119 They know your likes, dislikes, pain points, 01:23:28.279 --> 01:23:30.800 and they create that curated social media reel 01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:33.619 of the person you'd most likely to want to interact 01:23:33.619 --> 01:23:35.600 with because of what you put out into the world. 01:23:35.680 --> 01:23:37.340 They watch your TikToks. They do this. They do 01:23:37.340 --> 01:23:39.079 that. And sadly, that's what a lot of offenders 01:23:39.079 --> 01:23:41.699 do or a lot of... People that are trying to scam 01:23:41.699 --> 01:23:43.380 you for Bitcoin or whatever the case may be. 01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:45.680 They look at your social media reel and guess 01:23:45.680 --> 01:23:47.260 what? Now they're your bestie. And you go, oh, 01:23:47.300 --> 01:23:49.220 I got such a good gut feeling with this person. 01:23:49.659 --> 01:23:52.479 Well, you just read it wrong. You need to have 01:23:52.479 --> 01:23:54.640 multiple interactions. You need to slow the process 01:23:54.640 --> 01:23:57.399 down. Quick is not good when it comes to business 01:23:57.399 --> 01:24:00.500 transactions or personal relationships. So much 01:24:00.500 --> 01:24:02.600 great advice. I really, really appreciate it. 01:24:03.279 --> 01:24:05.520 Let's go to the protection detail side then. 01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:10.500 Which president were you first assigned to? So 01:24:10.500 --> 01:24:13.439 I, if I, when I first started out, it's not nose 01:24:13.439 --> 01:24:17.859 kid. I was a little bit of a runner, not great 01:24:17.859 --> 01:24:22.279 runner, but W was running like crazy and he was 01:24:22.279 --> 01:24:24.979 beating up a lot of our agents because you have 01:24:24.979 --> 01:24:26.579 to wear a radio, you'd have to wear a gun and 01:24:26.579 --> 01:24:30.239 he was in good shape. And so we had to kind of 01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:31.779 stock up some of our shifts and I was blessed 01:24:31.779 --> 01:24:34.819 to be on one of these shifts that had. people 01:24:34.819 --> 01:24:36.899 that were a little bit better runners. And, uh, 01:24:37.000 --> 01:24:38.899 he would do a typical 5k and he'd go out and 01:24:38.899 --> 01:24:41.359 run. And that was a good time because we, um, 01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:43.619 that was my first taste of protection. And to 01:24:43.619 --> 01:24:45.439 see it at that level was something because you 01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:48.520 would go from, we were in Austin, then we go 01:24:48.520 --> 01:24:50.460 to Waco and then you go to LA and then you go 01:24:50.460 --> 01:24:52.979 to New York and you're like, wow, you know, as 01:24:52.979 --> 01:24:55.840 a 26, 27 year old kid, it was pretty eyeopening 01:24:55.840 --> 01:24:59.020 to, uh, to do those things. You know, Leno one 01:24:59.020 --> 01:25:01.770 day you're on Letterman the next day. Um, And 01:25:01.770 --> 01:25:03.569 some of those things, like I said, I don't want 01:25:03.569 --> 01:25:04.850 to say it would get to your head, but as a young 01:25:04.850 --> 01:25:06.510 kid, you thought, oh, this is what the Secret 01:25:06.510 --> 01:25:08.789 Service is all about. And it's not. Shift work 01:25:08.789 --> 01:25:11.640 is not. protection. It's obviously part of it. 01:25:12.500 --> 01:25:14.380 It's probably the most visible part of it, but 01:25:14.380 --> 01:25:17.680 so much goes behind the scenes. So that first 01:25:17.680 --> 01:25:20.100 election was crazy because we got held an extra, 01:25:20.199 --> 01:25:21.760 I think, two or three weeks with the hanging 01:25:21.760 --> 01:25:24.680 chads and the election controversy in 2000. So 01:25:24.680 --> 01:25:27.039 we were waiting on the great state of Florida 01:25:27.039 --> 01:25:30.439 to come back and the Supreme Court ruling. So 01:25:30.439 --> 01:25:32.039 that was my first real taste of protection. And 01:25:32.039 --> 01:25:34.600 then it would become more intermittent because 01:25:34.600 --> 01:25:36.380 we don't do full -time protection in the Secret 01:25:36.380 --> 01:25:38.369 Service. You would get... absolutely worn out. 01:25:38.409 --> 01:25:40.810 I know after Butler, people have said, you know, 01:25:40.829 --> 01:25:42.869 we need to drop investigations. What makes a 01:25:42.869 --> 01:25:44.569 good protection agent is a good investigations 01:25:44.569 --> 01:25:46.189 agent because you have to be able to do both. 01:25:47.029 --> 01:25:49.510 Plus you just can't travel. Your divorce rate 01:25:49.510 --> 01:25:51.770 would go through the roof. It would just be very 01:25:51.770 --> 01:25:54.390 problematic with the work -life balance. So for 01:25:54.390 --> 01:25:56.869 me, I went back to investigations and then about 01:25:56.869 --> 01:25:59.510 the four -year marks when I went into polygraph 01:25:59.510 --> 01:26:01.989 and I did that for four years in Chicago. And 01:26:01.989 --> 01:26:06.119 then I had an opportunity to go to H .W. Bush 01:26:06.119 --> 01:26:09.239 when he was former president. And it was magical 01:26:09.239 --> 01:26:12.439 because summer in Maine and wintering in Houston 01:26:12.439 --> 01:26:15.619 is a pretty good mix. So I did a former president. 01:26:15.720 --> 01:26:19.359 So it was wonderful for me. Great family. Got 01:26:19.359 --> 01:26:22.180 to see some amazing things. Went to St. Louis, 01:26:22.340 --> 01:26:24.819 got back into investigations and polygraph. And 01:26:24.819 --> 01:26:26.439 then from there, you do intermittent protection, 01:26:26.619 --> 01:26:29.560 obviously during the campaigns, during the United 01:26:29.560 --> 01:26:32.829 Nations, those types of things. And then I took 01:26:32.829 --> 01:26:36.350 a job liaison position at the Federal Polygraph 01:26:36.350 --> 01:26:38.470 School, where we have about 30 different federal 01:26:38.470 --> 01:26:41.289 agencies, intel and law enforcement. So I would 01:26:41.289 --> 01:26:43.069 teach interview interrogation to them and also 01:26:43.069 --> 01:26:45.909 polygraph. So that was kind of my career arc. 01:26:46.210 --> 01:26:48.029 I would say it was more investigations heavy, 01:26:48.130 --> 01:26:51.189 especially when you talk to other people that 01:26:51.189 --> 01:26:53.229 were on the presidential detail and obviously 01:26:53.229 --> 01:26:56.369 saw things at that level. There's levels to protection 01:26:56.369 --> 01:26:58.029 and the difference between a former president. 01:26:58.960 --> 01:27:01.539 And the current sitting president is definitely 01:27:01.539 --> 01:27:05.199 night and day as far as resources. I was trying 01:27:05.199 --> 01:27:07.880 to, and it was at the end of his lifespan, but 01:27:07.880 --> 01:27:10.380 I was trying to get Jimmy Carter on the show 01:27:10.380 --> 01:27:12.600 through one of the mutual friends in the Secret 01:27:12.600 --> 01:27:14.899 Service. And that's an interesting one because 01:27:14.899 --> 01:27:18.699 I think most of us would agree that he seemingly 01:27:18.699 --> 01:27:21.340 became more and more and more of an altruist 01:27:21.340 --> 01:27:24.039 after he was president. So I think if you're 01:27:24.039 --> 01:27:26.920 going to use that platform, he's definitely one 01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:29.920 of the ones that I admire the most. Oh, and he 01:27:29.920 --> 01:27:33.039 went to some places that it wasn't the Ritz where 01:27:33.039 --> 01:27:35.520 he was staying. He was staying in tents and building 01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:38.279 houses. And like you said, he went to Africa, 01:27:38.500 --> 01:27:43.579 he rebuilt down in Dominican and Haiti and things 01:27:43.579 --> 01:27:45.439 like that. So yeah, absolutely. He did a lot 01:27:45.439 --> 01:27:49.279 of great things after office. So you mentioned 01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:52.539 Butler, this again. It's not by any means the 01:27:52.539 --> 01:27:55.100 focus, but with your background and the lens 01:27:55.100 --> 01:27:57.340 that so many people that obviously the armchair 01:27:57.340 --> 01:27:59.880 quarterbacking, you know, that event and some 01:27:59.880 --> 01:28:01.359 of the other ones that are kind of surrounded 01:28:01.359 --> 01:28:05.199 recently through your Secret Service lens, you 01:28:05.199 --> 01:28:08.140 know, what were the things that were done right 01:28:08.140 --> 01:28:10.420 that people vilified and what were, if any, some 01:28:10.420 --> 01:28:12.640 of the mistakes that resulted in the assassination? 01:28:14.220 --> 01:28:16.079 Well, if you start with the riot, obviously the 01:28:16.079 --> 01:28:17.760 working shift and the counter -assault deployment 01:28:17.760 --> 01:28:21.260 were amazing. When I came into the Secret Service, 01:28:21.560 --> 01:28:25.439 right after I got to Chicago, Tim McCarthy was 01:28:25.439 --> 01:28:26.920 the individual that took the bullet for Reagan. 01:28:27.340 --> 01:28:30.159 And that was somebody you always revered because 01:28:30.159 --> 01:28:33.640 he made himself big and took that round from 01:28:33.640 --> 01:28:38.739 Hinckley. So when you saw, obviously when you're 01:28:38.739 --> 01:28:41.760 not left to bang, meaning you don't stop it on 01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:45.000 the front end and it happens, you failed. So 01:28:45.000 --> 01:28:48.500 obviously zero stop, like that's a failure. But 01:28:48.500 --> 01:28:51.560 when the shift responds instantaneously and the 01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:53.260 counter -assault team deploys instantaneously 01:28:53.260 --> 01:28:55.939 and they, you know, people can criticize this, 01:28:56.000 --> 01:28:58.460 that, and the other. But from my standpoint, 01:28:58.500 --> 01:29:02.239 that was textbook as far as after the bad things 01:29:02.239 --> 01:29:04.159 happened. So the fire already lit the building 01:29:04.159 --> 01:29:07.720 on, but. So we didn't stop the fire, but at least 01:29:07.720 --> 01:29:09.800 we got the protectee out of there after that 01:29:09.800 --> 01:29:12.819 happened. Now, unfortunately, another fellow 01:29:12.819 --> 01:29:17.079 firefighter lost his life in the stands. So that's 01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:18.420 a failure at multiple levels. And that's what 01:29:18.420 --> 01:29:19.880 I think sometimes people forget is they're like, 01:29:19.939 --> 01:29:22.100 well, yeah, but Trump didn't get killed. Another 01:29:22.100 --> 01:29:23.680 human being got killed and two other people got 01:29:23.680 --> 01:29:28.659 injured. So terrible failure. And things leading 01:29:28.659 --> 01:29:29.960 up to them, there were assumptions that were 01:29:29.960 --> 01:29:34.149 made. And it was a perfect storm of events. Everybody 01:29:34.149 --> 01:29:35.770 going from the Democratic National Convention 01:29:35.770 --> 01:29:37.310 to the Republican National Convention, you have 01:29:37.310 --> 01:29:39.689 an agency that's stressed with personnel and 01:29:39.689 --> 01:29:43.090 funding. And to go forward before I go backwards 01:29:43.090 --> 01:29:44.449 there, I think that's something that they've 01:29:44.449 --> 01:29:47.010 done a great job with of realizing that, that 01:29:47.010 --> 01:29:49.149 we are making too many assumptions and we're 01:29:49.149 --> 01:29:51.210 relying on local and state law enforcement too 01:29:51.210 --> 01:29:53.840 much. That would be like if we had Secret Service 01:29:53.840 --> 01:29:56.119 agents go out and try to do work domestic cases 01:29:56.119 --> 01:29:58.180 or run fire calls. That's not what we're meant 01:29:58.180 --> 01:30:01.539 to do. I think we got to where outer perimeter 01:30:01.539 --> 01:30:05.600 posts, we were utilizing local state assets too 01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:08.899 much. And we made assumptions that, well, hey, 01:30:08.920 --> 01:30:11.460 that SWAT team or that counter sniper team is 01:30:11.460 --> 01:30:14.039 going to be stationed in the AGR building. And 01:30:14.039 --> 01:30:16.319 they've done this before. And their law enforcement, 01:30:16.380 --> 01:30:17.899 they'll be able to take care of it. That area 01:30:17.899 --> 01:30:21.750 was huge. There were multiple buildings. So the 01:30:21.750 --> 01:30:23.710 assumptions that were made, asynchronous communications, 01:30:24.109 --> 01:30:26.750 you've got, it's always a problem having people 01:30:26.750 --> 01:30:31.189 communicate in real time when you have encrypted 01:30:31.189 --> 01:30:33.970 radios, you know, with multiple different agencies. 01:30:34.689 --> 01:30:37.750 We had a security room and then there was another 01:30:37.750 --> 01:30:40.550 command post. Well, you had, whether it be Beaver 01:30:40.550 --> 01:30:42.970 or Butler, they're in one command post and then 01:30:42.970 --> 01:30:45.289 you've got the Pennsylvania State Police and 01:30:45.289 --> 01:30:48.000 the Secret Service in another command post. You 01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:49.800 need to have everybody either all in the same 01:30:49.800 --> 01:30:51.380 command post or on the same security room. So 01:30:51.380 --> 01:30:54.180 the comms are, you may not be on the same frequencies, 01:30:54.380 --> 01:30:56.920 but you can, you know, kind of filter that down 01:30:56.920 --> 01:31:00.119 to one person that you can push that out. You 01:31:00.119 --> 01:31:01.720 probably need additional people in the command 01:31:01.720 --> 01:31:03.680 post to push those instructions out. You probably 01:31:03.680 --> 01:31:05.300 need additional people in the outer perimeter 01:31:05.300 --> 01:31:07.579 that can respond to counter sniper, so on and 01:31:07.579 --> 01:31:09.100 so forth. Yeah, the counter sniper, that was 01:31:09.100 --> 01:31:13.319 amazing. Once that individual sadly got those 01:31:13.319 --> 01:31:17.640 shots off, the individual got on target. And, 01:31:17.640 --> 01:31:20.119 you know, eliminated the threat unbelievably 01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:24.560 quickly, not quick enough. But assumptions, you 01:31:24.560 --> 01:31:28.199 know, you had, you know, maybe us not adopting 01:31:28.199 --> 01:31:31.579 drone technology and counter drone technology 01:31:31.579 --> 01:31:34.460 quick enough. I don't know. I know that that's 01:31:34.460 --> 01:31:36.659 been an unbelievable focus since and they're 01:31:36.659 --> 01:31:38.020 trying to move heaven and earth to try to make 01:31:38.020 --> 01:31:41.300 that happen. But what are the chances that drone 01:31:41.300 --> 01:31:43.939 technology on our end goes down right when Crooks 01:31:43.939 --> 01:31:49.000 has his up? You know, it's just, but like I said, 01:31:49.039 --> 01:31:50.859 we have to get it right every time. They've got 01:31:50.859 --> 01:31:55.239 to get it right one time. And like I said, it 01:31:55.239 --> 01:31:57.579 just, as people were going this way around the 01:31:57.579 --> 01:31:59.340 building to look for him, he was going that way 01:31:59.340 --> 01:32:02.460 and vice versa. It was just a series of, you 01:32:02.460 --> 01:32:05.380 know, of errors. And we can't make those assumptions. 01:32:05.500 --> 01:32:10.020 We have to own it. We screwed up. And, you know, 01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:13.319 that's. You know, I think for anybody that really 01:32:13.319 --> 01:32:15.560 wants to look, if you go to Senator Grassley's 01:32:15.560 --> 01:32:17.520 website and you look at the Senate hearings and 01:32:17.520 --> 01:32:19.520 you look at the Homeland Security, you can see 01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:21.539 all those interviews. So it's not conjecture. 01:32:22.100 --> 01:32:23.920 It's not what you heard from a buddy. It's not 01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:25.920 what you heard from any news source, from some 01:32:25.920 --> 01:32:29.159 talking head. You can see what the agents, HSI, 01:32:29.300 --> 01:32:32.760 Secret Service. locals, state troopers, what 01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:35.819 they testified to under oath. And it really opened 01:32:35.819 --> 01:32:38.579 your eyes about that scenario. So you take a 01:32:38.579 --> 01:32:40.659 couple hours and do that. I think it really makes 01:32:40.659 --> 01:32:42.979 someone a more informed consumer. We learned 01:32:42.979 --> 01:32:46.840 something from the JFK assassination. We learned 01:32:46.840 --> 01:32:51.140 we don't do uncovered arrivals for the Reagan 01:32:51.140 --> 01:32:53.199 assassination. And you have somebody in the hospitals, 01:32:53.300 --> 01:32:56.739 you have a dedicated line. We learned a lot from 01:32:56.739 --> 01:32:58.819 this situation. And hopefully we learned that. 01:32:59.609 --> 01:33:00.869 you know certain things that we're going to do 01:33:00.869 --> 01:33:04.550 you know you had a situation in which you had 01:33:04.550 --> 01:33:07.329 a protectee that liked to do outdoor events and 01:33:07.329 --> 01:33:09.550 what we've seen in ukraine is that outdoor events 01:33:09.550 --> 01:33:12.609 are very very problematic in today's you know 01:33:12.609 --> 01:33:17.369 uh you know threat environment so um but when 01:33:17.369 --> 01:33:18.909 our protectee says they want to go somewhere 01:33:18.909 --> 01:33:20.689 anywhere in the world we need to make that happen 01:33:20.689 --> 01:33:23.029 and we didn't do it that day we failed and i 01:33:23.029 --> 01:33:25.949 was retired at that point and yet I felt the 01:33:25.949 --> 01:33:28.170 pain for those agents on the job because I know 01:33:28.170 --> 01:33:30.489 anyone in the agency, that was the worst day 01:33:30.489 --> 01:33:31.850 of their career, even if they had nothing to 01:33:31.850 --> 01:33:34.470 do with it, because everything was a reflection 01:33:34.470 --> 01:33:38.970 upon them that day. The one thing that I find 01:33:38.970 --> 01:33:41.189 unusual, and I'm looking forward to you educate 01:33:41.189 --> 01:33:45.810 me on this, when shots are fired and whoever 01:33:45.810 --> 01:33:48.949 the person you're protecting is held down, the 01:33:48.949 --> 01:33:51.270 ability for them to stand up and then punch the 01:33:51.270 --> 01:33:54.470 air, I found strange. So educate me on that. 01:33:55.380 --> 01:33:57.819 Yeah, I mean, I got to be careful with what I 01:33:57.819 --> 01:34:01.979 say, right? But when you're trying to, you know, 01:34:02.000 --> 01:34:04.159 just from jujitsu, I will say it is hard to hold 01:34:04.159 --> 01:34:06.520 another human being down when they don't want 01:34:06.520 --> 01:34:09.180 to be held down. And when you're assessing somebody 01:34:09.180 --> 01:34:10.979 for injuries or you're, I mean, if you want to 01:34:10.979 --> 01:34:12.800 call it a meat blanket, that's what you're pretty 01:34:12.800 --> 01:34:16.539 much forming in that situation because, you know, 01:34:16.539 --> 01:34:18.079 at a certain point, you're going to take those 01:34:18.079 --> 01:34:20.720 rounds. You know, through, you know, once again, 01:34:20.760 --> 01:34:22.979 I won't get into any more specifics than that, 01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:24.920 but that's just what you're trained. You're trying 01:34:24.920 --> 01:34:27.520 to make yourself as many obstacles between you 01:34:27.520 --> 01:34:29.920 and the vital organs of the individual that you're 01:34:29.920 --> 01:34:31.760 protecting. It's not about catching a bullet 01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:32.920 or whatever. You're just getting in the way. 01:34:34.020 --> 01:34:35.539 You know, some people say that, would you take 01:34:35.539 --> 01:34:37.020 a bullet for something? You're just getting in 01:34:37.020 --> 01:34:38.600 the way. You're not consciously thinking about 01:34:38.600 --> 01:34:40.979 that. So when everybody dove on that pile, I 01:34:40.979 --> 01:34:42.500 think it took for a second to say, hey, it's 01:34:42.500 --> 01:34:45.420 our principal hit. And then it took them for 01:34:45.420 --> 01:34:46.979 a second to say, hey, we're going to get the 01:34:46.979 --> 01:34:48.760 cars where they need to get. And then as we're 01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:51.119 standing up, yeah, somebody could say, why didn't 01:34:51.119 --> 01:34:53.460 you carry them off? It's very, very difficult 01:34:53.460 --> 01:34:57.899 to carry, you know, an individual, you know, 01:34:57.899 --> 01:34:59.699 you know, through that, through the fire service, 01:34:59.819 --> 01:35:02.859 you know, somebody that's, you know, maybe moving, 01:35:02.920 --> 01:35:05.979 it's very hard to carry them. And you're a lot 01:35:05.979 --> 01:35:08.979 of times better off to have them, you know, walk 01:35:08.979 --> 01:35:11.000 or run or jog on their own accord than trying 01:35:11.000 --> 01:35:13.039 to carry them. Because anytime you're trying 01:35:13.039 --> 01:35:15.840 to carry them, Any type of protection around 01:35:15.840 --> 01:35:17.460 them is going to be affected. And now you're 01:35:17.460 --> 01:35:19.460 potentially open up an avenue where they can 01:35:19.460 --> 01:35:22.680 get shot again. Gotcha. I appreciate that. Thank 01:35:22.680 --> 01:35:24.720 you. So I hope I didn't dodge that too much. 01:35:26.119 --> 01:35:28.699 All right. Well, you mentioned about being retired 01:35:28.699 --> 01:35:30.539 at that point. So let's talk about the transition 01:35:30.539 --> 01:35:33.340 and we'll get to the book. So what made you pull 01:35:33.340 --> 01:35:35.439 the trigger as far as the transitioning out? 01:35:36.619 --> 01:35:39.000 We hear, you know, that transition can be very 01:35:39.000 --> 01:35:41.000 jarring for a lot of people in uniform. You know, 01:35:41.020 --> 01:35:42.939 we have this tribe and purpose and identity. 01:35:43.380 --> 01:35:45.619 What was the transition like for you specifically? 01:35:46.899 --> 01:35:50.239 Yeah, so I was blessed to pick up another job 01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:53.319 to be able to do what I'm doing now as far as 01:35:53.319 --> 01:35:55.479 teach, interview, interrogation, to keep interviewing 01:35:55.479 --> 01:35:58.140 people, to still be in federal law enforcement. 01:35:58.220 --> 01:36:00.720 So I was blessed. But yes, for four months in 01:36:00.720 --> 01:36:03.840 between that. How many times can you paint a 01:36:03.840 --> 01:36:06.899 room or can you work outside in the yard or get 01:36:06.899 --> 01:36:09.720 a new cigar, look up bourbon or whatever the 01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:12.140 case may be. You run out of things to do. And 01:36:12.140 --> 01:36:14.279 yeah, that sense of purpose is gone because you're 01:36:14.279 --> 01:36:16.319 used to that every single day as far as you've 01:36:16.319 --> 01:36:19.000 got your routine. And sadly, we've seen that 01:36:19.000 --> 01:36:21.939 where people will work 25 years and they're amazing 01:36:21.939 --> 01:36:23.460 and they're in great shape. And then the next 01:36:23.460 --> 01:36:25.119 week after they retire, they have a heart attack 01:36:25.119 --> 01:36:27.909 because they're just... You know, they've worked 01:36:27.909 --> 01:36:29.750 so hard and that was their purpose and their 01:36:29.750 --> 01:36:31.449 purpose is gone. It's almost like when people 01:36:31.449 --> 01:36:34.789 lose their wives and then they pass shortly thereafter 01:36:34.789 --> 01:36:37.229 because that was their identity, right? That 01:36:37.229 --> 01:36:40.369 was their everything. So yeah, that was a big 01:36:40.369 --> 01:36:43.109 thing for me is I always tried to stay active 01:36:43.109 --> 01:36:46.550 and read up. And luckily, that's when I really 01:36:46.550 --> 01:36:50.550 started hitting the book hard. So I treated writing 01:36:50.550 --> 01:36:53.750 the book like a job. I had a bunch of kind of... 01:36:54.300 --> 01:36:56.180 material I'd put together over the years, stories 01:36:56.180 --> 01:36:57.880 to accentuate how to communicate effectively 01:36:57.880 --> 01:37:00.439 with people. And when I was off for those four 01:37:00.439 --> 01:37:02.920 months, I just really treated it like a nine 01:37:02.920 --> 01:37:05.920 to five job, putting it together and started 01:37:05.920 --> 01:37:07.460 off as a law enforcement book. Like, Hey, how 01:37:07.460 --> 01:37:10.119 can we help out any type of individuals in law 01:37:10.119 --> 01:37:14.250 enforcement? uh get the truth and then i realized 01:37:14.250 --> 01:37:15.890 and had a great editor that said hey this is 01:37:15.890 --> 01:37:17.850 for parents teachers coaches this is you're creating 01:37:17.850 --> 01:37:19.609 an environment where people can open up this 01:37:19.609 --> 01:37:22.270 is a more universal book so let's reshape it 01:37:22.270 --> 01:37:24.029 a little bit and that's what we did is we kind 01:37:24.029 --> 01:37:26.970 of took the sandpaper to it and uh ended up with 01:37:26.970 --> 01:37:29.909 what i hope lands here uh in a couple weeks as 01:37:29.909 --> 01:37:33.289 a communication book in general so the book is 01:37:33.289 --> 01:37:35.350 called tell me everything you've kind of got 01:37:35.350 --> 01:37:39.689 it separate into about four So I'm just going 01:37:39.689 --> 01:37:41.850 to hit each of those just to give a kind of overview 01:37:41.850 --> 01:37:43.569 of what people will find between the covers. 01:37:44.050 --> 01:37:46.449 So the first one, mastering first impressions 01:37:46.449 --> 01:37:51.310 and preparation. Yeah, absolutely. Is that recency 01:37:51.310 --> 01:37:55.250 bias, primacy effect? Is people remember the 01:37:55.250 --> 01:37:57.430 first and last things in our interactions? And 01:37:57.430 --> 01:37:59.529 what do we do first thing? We shake hands. And 01:37:59.529 --> 01:38:01.510 yet, how many times have you got the world's 01:38:01.510 --> 01:38:04.960 worst handshake? It's cold, it's wet. Yeah. It's 01:38:04.960 --> 01:38:07.520 too strong. It's too light. And so literally 01:38:07.520 --> 01:38:10.039 we spend, you know, a little bit of time talking 01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:11.520 about the world's perfect handshake. I'll warm 01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:13.140 my hands up. I'll make sure they're dry. I'll 01:38:13.140 --> 01:38:16.060 sit on my hand. If I'm seated, I'll make sure 01:38:16.060 --> 01:38:17.880 something warm, like coffee's in my right hand. 01:38:17.920 --> 01:38:19.880 We all shake with right hands. I identify early. 01:38:19.979 --> 01:38:21.720 I'm at a 45 degree angle. I show the white of 01:38:21.720 --> 01:38:24.100 my palm to show that I don't have a weapon. I 01:38:24.100 --> 01:38:25.960 give him a little eyebrow flash, a little tilt 01:38:25.960 --> 01:38:27.859 to the side, give him a subtle smile because 01:38:27.859 --> 01:38:29.760 neutral codes negative when it comes to first 01:38:29.760 --> 01:38:32.520 impressions. When we were a tribal based society. 01:38:33.310 --> 01:38:35.090 Hundreds of thousands of years ago, our eyes 01:38:35.090 --> 01:38:37.369 and our ears identified threats to our well -being. 01:38:37.470 --> 01:38:41.550 So I need to hack that. And when it comes to 01:38:41.550 --> 01:38:43.310 hearing, I need to be able to have a slightly 01:38:43.310 --> 01:38:46.409 deeper voice at about 120 to 140 words per minute. 01:38:46.529 --> 01:38:48.529 When I'm first meeting you, I need to really 01:38:48.529 --> 01:38:51.010 try to avoid that anxiety, that higher pitch 01:38:51.010 --> 01:38:52.970 voice, because that codes as you're nervous, 01:38:53.050 --> 01:38:55.729 you're unconfident, or you're scared. And emotions 01:38:55.729 --> 01:38:57.569 are contagious. And I obviously don't want that. 01:38:57.890 --> 01:38:59.670 I want to be wearing something that's professional. 01:38:59.750 --> 01:39:02.170 After COVID, what happened? We all got comfortable 01:39:02.170 --> 01:39:06.270 wearing leisure activities in. And I see so many 01:39:06.270 --> 01:39:09.350 interrogations in which. agents are wearing an 01:39:09.350 --> 01:39:11.729 ACDC concert t -shirt or whatever the case may 01:39:11.729 --> 01:39:14.149 be. And it just looks unbelievably unprofessional. 01:39:14.210 --> 01:39:16.010 So you don't have to have a suit and tie, but 01:39:16.010 --> 01:39:17.949 you don't have to have a jacket on, but put that 01:39:17.949 --> 01:39:20.149 button down shirt on and look professional. You 01:39:20.149 --> 01:39:23.369 don't, I think, what was it? Deion Sanders says, 01:39:23.489 --> 01:39:25.449 look good, feel good, feel good, play good, play 01:39:25.449 --> 01:39:28.210 good, you pay good. And I think there's a lot 01:39:28.210 --> 01:39:33.390 to that. as far as looking good. So we go through 01:39:33.390 --> 01:39:36.430 all five senses. I try to make sure everybody's 01:39:36.430 --> 01:39:38.670 fed. They associate me with that. It looks good 01:39:38.670 --> 01:39:41.289 in court. There's a reciprocity benefit to providing 01:39:41.289 --> 01:39:43.670 food to people and water to people and obviously 01:39:43.670 --> 01:39:46.810 a restroom break to people. So trying to create 01:39:46.810 --> 01:39:48.289 that, once again, that environment where people 01:39:48.289 --> 01:39:51.510 feel safe enough to make a full disclosure. Brilliant. 01:39:51.609 --> 01:39:55.579 Just tangenting for a moment. I had a guest on 01:39:55.579 --> 01:39:58.539 from your community and I forget his last name. 01:39:58.579 --> 01:40:00.539 It was Mark and it was a Greek last name that 01:40:00.539 --> 01:40:03.140 I would butcher if I tried it. But he had a great 01:40:03.140 --> 01:40:05.859 perspective on, you know, just threat recognition 01:40:05.859 --> 01:40:08.979 in public, whether it's, you know, an angry person 01:40:08.979 --> 01:40:11.060 in a pub, whether it's someone who might be carrying 01:40:11.060 --> 01:40:13.079 a backpack full of something that we don't want 01:40:13.079 --> 01:40:15.699 around a crowd of people. when we're talking 01:40:15.699 --> 01:40:18.500 about that kind of evolutionary protective element 01:40:18.500 --> 01:40:21.279 that we have as human beings what are some of 01:40:21.279 --> 01:40:23.619 the the things that the average person can look 01:40:23.619 --> 01:40:26.380 for as far as unusual behavior without pigeonholing 01:40:26.380 --> 01:40:29.319 too much yeah i mean obviously you know if you 01:40:29.319 --> 01:40:30.960 want to think of it as you know what's everybody 01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:32.640 doing in the crowd if everybody in the crowd 01:40:32.640 --> 01:40:34.779 is you know looking a certain way if they're 01:40:34.779 --> 01:40:37.600 excited and somebody is very very neutral very 01:40:37.600 --> 01:40:40.260 negative why is that no you know that that That 01:40:40.260 --> 01:40:41.739 pattern recognition, it could be because they 01:40:41.739 --> 01:40:43.399 just got a phone call and their girlfriend broke 01:40:43.399 --> 01:40:45.079 up with them. And it may have absolutely nothing 01:40:45.079 --> 01:40:47.859 to do with you. But what are some signs of aggression 01:40:47.859 --> 01:40:50.000 that we see before somebody, you know, we watch 01:40:50.000 --> 01:40:52.520 these videos online of somebody punching somebody, 01:40:52.640 --> 01:40:54.539 knocking somebody out. What's their face look 01:40:54.539 --> 01:40:56.920 like when that happens? Obviously, their jaw 01:40:56.920 --> 01:40:58.420 is clenched. They're breathing through their 01:40:58.420 --> 01:41:01.180 chest. Their nostrils are flaring. They tend 01:41:01.180 --> 01:41:03.140 to have that brow furrow. They tend to have their 01:41:03.140 --> 01:41:06.560 body bladed. You know, they tend to be animated. 01:41:07.100 --> 01:41:09.279 in their movements, meaning uncoordinated. And 01:41:09.279 --> 01:41:10.960 that's because of fight or flight, that blood 01:41:10.960 --> 01:41:13.800 is pooling. Anytime somebody's felt fight or 01:41:13.800 --> 01:41:15.300 flight, you know what that means is your blood's 01:41:15.300 --> 01:41:18.340 pooling in those big muscles of your body and 01:41:18.340 --> 01:41:20.840 you get those jelly legs. So when you see that, 01:41:20.840 --> 01:41:23.359 yeah, why am I seeing that? So I guess what I 01:41:23.359 --> 01:41:25.899 look at is it's not, maybe this person's a threat. 01:41:25.960 --> 01:41:28.159 It's why does that person look this way? And 01:41:28.159 --> 01:41:30.460 now I want to have my focus be there for a consistent 01:41:30.460 --> 01:41:33.199 period of time to see, did that just change or 01:41:33.199 --> 01:41:35.590 did it? Is it staying that way? Is it escalating? 01:41:35.970 --> 01:41:39.130 So, yeah, those are as far as pre -attack indicators. 01:41:39.369 --> 01:41:41.229 That's something that you're going to look at, 01:41:41.289 --> 01:41:42.810 because obviously, if we can stop it before it 01:41:42.810 --> 01:41:47.310 happens, you know, that's a win. What about because 01:41:47.310 --> 01:41:51.270 we obviously have, sadly, issues as far as violence 01:41:51.270 --> 01:41:52.989 in our schools, you know, some of the domestic 01:41:52.989 --> 01:41:55.970 terrorism. What about the person in the crowd? 01:41:58.189 --> 01:42:00.890 As far as what you're looking for? Yeah, so now 01:42:00.890 --> 01:42:03.090 rather than directed at you specifically and 01:42:03.090 --> 01:42:04.930 that clenched door and that aggression, now it's 01:42:04.930 --> 01:42:07.970 just something on a train, in a stadium. Yeah. 01:42:08.840 --> 01:42:10.439 Yeah, it's tough because if you watch some of 01:42:10.439 --> 01:42:12.619 these videos, right, you see these people that 01:42:12.619 --> 01:42:15.239 didn't really display too much. And then all 01:42:15.239 --> 01:42:17.539 of a sudden they act and then they almost revert 01:42:17.539 --> 01:42:19.680 back to that. You know, if you see that attack 01:42:19.680 --> 01:42:22.680 in Charlotte on the train, you know, that individual 01:42:22.680 --> 01:42:25.159 wasn't displaying too much as far as pre -attack 01:42:25.159 --> 01:42:27.220 indicators. He acted and he just pretty much 01:42:27.220 --> 01:42:29.979 went back to chilling. You know, I don't know 01:42:29.979 --> 01:42:31.399 if there's mental health issues there or not, 01:42:31.500 --> 01:42:34.300 but yeah, that one's very, very hard. to display, 01:42:34.439 --> 01:42:37.680 but I would say consistency of behavior. If, 01:42:37.779 --> 01:42:40.579 um, very rarely do people go from zero to 60. 01:42:41.140 --> 01:42:43.359 Um, you know, you, you don't see people laugh 01:42:43.359 --> 01:42:46.180 and then cry. You just don't see that the barometer 01:42:46.180 --> 01:42:48.539 switch that, that much. So what I'm going to 01:42:48.539 --> 01:42:50.260 do is I'm going to look and see what's that baseline 01:42:50.260 --> 01:42:52.460 behavior. And then all of a sudden was there 01:42:52.460 --> 01:42:54.680 a sudden change and what brought that on? When 01:42:54.680 --> 01:42:56.600 you look at personal safety, when you look at 01:42:56.600 --> 01:42:58.039 things, a lot of times these things happen in 01:42:58.039 --> 01:43:01.100 transitional areas where you park your car. when 01:43:01.100 --> 01:43:03.579 you're going into your house. It's very rarely 01:43:03.579 --> 01:43:05.420 happening when you're in transit. So that's when 01:43:05.420 --> 01:43:08.279 your antenna needs to go up is the arrivals, 01:43:08.279 --> 01:43:10.699 the departures, when we're moving, you know, 01:43:10.699 --> 01:43:12.779 towards an entrance and towards a departure, 01:43:12.960 --> 01:43:14.300 because people know you're going to be there. 01:43:14.420 --> 01:43:16.899 So, and there's a lot of activity, there's a 01:43:16.899 --> 01:43:18.300 lot of movement, there's a lot of things going 01:43:18.300 --> 01:43:20.420 on. So people can kind of get lost in the wash, 01:43:20.579 --> 01:43:23.020 so to speak. So someone in a crowd, they're going 01:43:23.020 --> 01:43:25.159 to stand out. So a lot of times that's maybe 01:43:25.159 --> 01:43:27.520 not when they would. they would act you know 01:43:27.520 --> 01:43:30.119 whereas when you see a rope line there's a lot 01:43:30.119 --> 01:43:32.020 of activity so that's something you'd be more 01:43:32.020 --> 01:43:34.960 concerned about it's funny because you're absolutely 01:43:34.960 --> 01:43:36.699 right you know there's videos we're watching 01:43:36.699 --> 01:43:39.100 and like this there was no science but you'll 01:43:39.100 --> 01:43:41.500 see all these guys on instagram do these videos 01:43:41.500 --> 01:43:43.520 about how that person got stabbed and if they 01:43:43.520 --> 01:43:45.180 just didn't do this thing it's like no they were 01:43:45.180 --> 01:43:47.119 just sitting on the bus for christ's sake there's 01:43:47.119 --> 01:43:48.939 a certain point mind in their own business and 01:43:48.939 --> 01:43:51.079 you can't live like that you can't live ultra 01:43:51.079 --> 01:43:54.680 vigilant you would go insane right um You shouldn't 01:43:54.680 --> 01:43:57.020 have to be like that on a bus thinking, hey, 01:43:57.039 --> 01:43:58.460 somebody's going to stab me in the neck. But 01:43:58.460 --> 01:44:00.600 unfortunately, we live in a dangerous world. 01:44:00.659 --> 01:44:02.279 So yeah, if I'm going to sit facing the door, 01:44:02.420 --> 01:44:05.159 there's certain things that we all do. In emergency 01:44:05.159 --> 01:44:07.720 services, we tend to where we sit somewhere and 01:44:07.720 --> 01:44:09.840 are we armed? Are we not armed? Where's the exits? 01:44:10.239 --> 01:44:12.319 Those are easy things that we all want to do. 01:44:12.420 --> 01:44:14.220 But too many times we let our guard down when 01:44:14.220 --> 01:44:16.659 we're walking to our car. We walk aimlessly to 01:44:16.659 --> 01:44:18.439 our car. We don't walk confidently. And especially, 01:44:18.739 --> 01:44:21.020 you know, and this is not just a female thing, 01:44:21.140 --> 01:44:23.279 but I say this to women's groups all the time 01:44:23.279 --> 01:44:26.779 is how you walk confidently. If a tiger, a lion 01:44:26.779 --> 01:44:28.739 or a human who's wanting to victimize somebody, 01:44:28.840 --> 01:44:30.239 if they're looking at a threat, what are they 01:44:30.239 --> 01:44:31.800 looking at? They're looking for the wounded gazelle 01:44:31.800 --> 01:44:34.359 or the one that's disoriented or lost. And so 01:44:34.359 --> 01:44:35.840 if you look like you know where you're going 01:44:35.840 --> 01:44:37.659 and you're walking there with a purpose, they 01:44:37.659 --> 01:44:39.520 tend to say, all right, I'm not going to mess 01:44:39.520 --> 01:44:42.300 with that. I've heard that even from law enforcement. 01:44:42.460 --> 01:44:45.979 A lot of my friends who are brown, black belts 01:44:45.979 --> 01:44:48.520 in jiu -jitsu, they're in great shape. They're 01:44:48.520 --> 01:44:50.619 the ones that have the lowest reports of hands 01:44:50.619 --> 01:44:52.979 -on because these criminals are looking at them 01:44:52.979 --> 01:44:55.479 going, I'm not going to fuck with that guy. They 01:44:55.479 --> 01:44:59.779 see the color flower ear. Or they just see the 01:44:59.779 --> 01:45:02.140 command presence. You know, what is command presence? 01:45:02.260 --> 01:45:04.380 I don't mean that. Sometimes that's misstated. 01:45:04.380 --> 01:45:06.859 The confidence. They see the distance between 01:45:06.859 --> 01:45:09.420 somebody's earlobe and their shoulder. They see 01:45:09.420 --> 01:45:12.180 the separation in their shoulders because somebody's 01:45:12.180 --> 01:45:15.260 just comfortable. My professor, Gibson Tsai, 01:45:15.439 --> 01:45:17.960 he came from Brazil at 18, was a world champion 01:45:17.960 --> 01:45:21.380 at 18, won multiple world championships. He's 01:45:21.380 --> 01:45:23.720 a very, very large man. I don't know if he's 01:45:23.720 --> 01:45:27.180 ever gotten in a fight because he just walks 01:45:27.180 --> 01:45:29.279 away. Right. What's the greatest self -defense 01:45:29.279 --> 01:45:30.920 thing that you can do? You use your feet and 01:45:30.920 --> 01:45:33.039 you walk away because even when you win, you 01:45:33.039 --> 01:45:36.819 lose. You might get sued. You never know when 01:45:36.819 --> 01:45:38.659 your chin goes from here to here, you go to sleep. 01:45:38.720 --> 01:45:40.659 I don't care who you are. I'm a brown belt in 01:45:40.659 --> 01:45:43.659 jujitsu, but if somebody catches you, you're 01:45:43.659 --> 01:45:45.060 going to go to sleep and bad things are going 01:45:45.060 --> 01:45:48.920 to happen. So I always want to avoid a confrontation, 01:45:48.979 --> 01:45:52.340 but also you want to be confident if every law 01:45:52.340 --> 01:45:55.079 enforcement official should be a blue belt. Um, 01:45:55.079 --> 01:45:57.619 when I see, I helped teach the beginners class 01:45:57.619 --> 01:46:00.500 at our gym and we had a law enforcement officer 01:46:00.500 --> 01:46:04.439 come in and he, larger guy, um, but was, was 01:46:04.439 --> 01:46:06.800 trying to pick up, uh, jujitsu and he was having 01:46:06.800 --> 01:46:09.500 these problems with, um, handcuffing. He's like, 01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:11.140 Brad, I tried the Kimura here and I'm getting 01:46:11.140 --> 01:46:13.560 stuck here. And so we worked on it and we repped 01:46:13.560 --> 01:46:15.699 it and we repped it and we repped it. And one 01:46:15.699 --> 01:46:18.100 of the most proudest moments was the next week 01:46:18.100 --> 01:46:19.840 he came in and he said that same exact thing 01:46:19.840 --> 01:46:22.699 happened. Guy was going for his gun. He used 01:46:22.699 --> 01:46:25.199 that Kimura. And he was able to put handcuffs 01:46:25.199 --> 01:46:26.859 on it and he did it confidently. And he didn't 01:46:26.859 --> 01:46:29.180 have to go down his tool belt and either tase 01:46:29.180 --> 01:46:30.460 the guy or he might not have been able to tase 01:46:30.460 --> 01:46:32.260 him. He may have resulted in a fatal confrontation 01:46:32.260 --> 01:46:35.579 and he may have got hurt. And that to me was 01:46:35.579 --> 01:46:38.600 that confidence he had. He said, Brad, man, before 01:46:38.600 --> 01:46:40.420 my heart rate was going to be like 120, 130. 01:46:40.659 --> 01:46:42.300 I'm fighting. I'm doing this. I'm using too much 01:46:42.300 --> 01:46:45.420 muscle. He goes, we repped it 20, 30 times. And 01:46:45.420 --> 01:46:47.500 he goes, my heart rate was probably 80. And I 01:46:47.500 --> 01:46:50.329 was very controlled. And that's what every law 01:46:50.329 --> 01:46:52.090 enforcement officer needs is that you see a lot 01:46:52.090 --> 01:46:54.710 of officer involved shootings where it starts 01:46:54.710 --> 01:46:57.409 off two to one, whatever the case may be, and 01:46:57.409 --> 01:47:00.050 they can't keep that person down. They can't 01:47:00.050 --> 01:47:02.109 get those handcuffs on. And then it turns into 01:47:02.109 --> 01:47:04.930 something else where deadly force is used. And 01:47:04.930 --> 01:47:06.689 a lot of times that doesn't have to be the case. 01:47:06.810 --> 01:47:10.949 So we spend so much time on the range and we 01:47:10.949 --> 01:47:12.989 don't spend time in communication. We don't spend 01:47:12.989 --> 01:47:18.649 time in jujitsu is that to me. uh even just a 01:47:18.649 --> 01:47:21.750 blue belt in jiu -jitsu is a superpower against 01:47:21.750 --> 01:47:24.689 an untrained person just with minimal training 01:47:24.689 --> 01:47:28.670 absolutely what about chokes this is always an 01:47:28.670 --> 01:47:30.449 interesting conversation but especially with 01:47:30.449 --> 01:47:32.909 someone who's well versed in jiu -jitsu i'm a 01:47:32.909 --> 01:47:35.050 i'm a blue belt i think i've got what three stripes 01:47:35.050 --> 01:47:38.569 now or something um and i'm i'm a neck hunter 01:47:38.569 --> 01:47:40.789 it's just i've got long skinny arms yeah absolutely 01:47:40.789 --> 01:47:43.770 i find myself guillotining a lot and and here's 01:47:43.770 --> 01:47:46.229 the thing look i got i got a bigger neck but 01:47:46.229 --> 01:47:48.319 james I don't know how many pounds I got on you. 01:47:48.380 --> 01:47:51.000 I probably got 60 pounds on you. But my neck, 01:47:51.060 --> 01:47:53.159 if you get it, it doesn't matter that I have 01:47:53.159 --> 01:47:55.380 a weight advantage. When I don't have blood, 01:47:55.539 --> 01:47:58.640 oxygenated blood going to my brain, I stop doing 01:47:58.640 --> 01:48:00.539 what I'm doing and I make poor decisions. And 01:48:00.539 --> 01:48:02.619 my hands go from hurting you to try to getting 01:48:02.619 --> 01:48:04.840 this off. And you know what they're not reaching 01:48:04.840 --> 01:48:06.260 for? They're not reaching for your tool belt. 01:48:06.399 --> 01:48:08.479 They're not reaching for your gun. They're trying 01:48:08.479 --> 01:48:11.600 to do self -preservation. And so the problem 01:48:11.600 --> 01:48:14.899 of not having rear naked chokes is I've probably 01:48:14.899 --> 01:48:19.539 been choked. Oh, 10 ,000 times. And it works. 01:48:19.640 --> 01:48:21.880 I've probably choked 10 ,000 times and it works. 01:48:21.899 --> 01:48:24.460 Not one time did I have a heart attack. Okay. 01:48:24.720 --> 01:48:27.000 But the problem is you have untrained people, 01:48:27.100 --> 01:48:29.739 maybe multiple people. You do have compression 01:48:29.739 --> 01:48:32.060 on them, maybe at other parts of their body. 01:48:32.520 --> 01:48:34.760 And what you see in some of these cases is these 01:48:34.760 --> 01:48:36.819 people that we are wrestling around with, what's 01:48:36.819 --> 01:48:39.130 their heart rate? what drugs do they maybe have 01:48:39.130 --> 01:48:40.949 on board, what underlying health conditions they 01:48:40.949 --> 01:48:42.630 have. And we extrapolate from that, that it's 01:48:42.630 --> 01:48:44.989 the choke that caused that and not some underlying 01:48:44.989 --> 01:48:47.189 health issue or some drugs that they were under 01:48:47.189 --> 01:48:49.609 the influence of. And I'm not making that specific 01:48:49.609 --> 01:48:52.789 to any case. I'm just saying is that by taking 01:48:52.789 --> 01:48:55.810 that away, now I have to go to joint manipulations, 01:48:55.829 --> 01:48:58.510 which may lead to in the heat of the moment, 01:48:58.550 --> 01:49:01.090 destroying somebody's rotator cuff or breaking 01:49:01.090 --> 01:49:05.180 their elbow. So the liability with that. the 01:49:05.180 --> 01:49:07.060 pain compliance that maybe that person really 01:49:07.060 --> 01:49:09.000 freaks out now because the pain that's going 01:49:09.000 --> 01:49:11.439 associated with that, or I may have to go to 01:49:11.439 --> 01:49:13.340 strikes and we all know how that looks on camera. 01:49:14.159 --> 01:49:17.060 Um, but yeah, rear naked choke, or just even 01:49:17.060 --> 01:49:19.840 if I'm doing an Ezekiel or some type of choke 01:49:19.840 --> 01:49:23.560 where I'm using a. using someone's coat to choke 01:49:23.560 --> 01:49:25.279 them, what do they have to do with their hands? 01:49:25.340 --> 01:49:26.800 They have to bring their hands off. So if I'm 01:49:26.800 --> 01:49:28.979 in mount, I can now get a higher mount. What 01:49:28.979 --> 01:49:31.239 can they not do? They can't oompa off. It's very 01:49:31.239 --> 01:49:32.899 hard for them to transition off of me because 01:49:32.899 --> 01:49:36.460 my weight's much higher on their body now. So 01:49:36.460 --> 01:49:39.479 all these things kind of play on one another. 01:49:39.659 --> 01:49:42.739 I mean, is a gift wrap, is it a choke? A gift 01:49:42.739 --> 01:49:46.180 wrap is one of the greatest control moves you 01:49:46.180 --> 01:49:47.840 can do on somebody because they can't turn into 01:49:47.840 --> 01:49:50.270 you. They can't turn away. One of your arms is 01:49:50.270 --> 01:49:52.029 basically controlling their entire body. You 01:49:52.029 --> 01:49:53.949 can get to your radio, you can get to your phone. 01:49:54.149 --> 01:49:57.390 And yet I have some CT people that say, ah, if 01:49:57.390 --> 01:49:59.029 you do a gift wrap, you're really cutting off 01:49:59.029 --> 01:50:01.149 half their blood supply. So we can't do that, 01:50:01.229 --> 01:50:04.750 man. So it's just so many things are being taken 01:50:04.750 --> 01:50:08.430 off the menu as far as what we can do that that's 01:50:08.430 --> 01:50:11.909 problematic. When I speak to the canine specialists 01:50:11.909 --> 01:50:17.250 in law enforcement, let me see here. Mike Goosby, 01:50:17.289 --> 01:50:18.869 I was blanking for his name for a second. Mike 01:50:18.869 --> 01:50:22.770 is the LAPD guru in that world. And you hear 01:50:22.770 --> 01:50:24.909 the optics of the canines and they're trying 01:50:24.909 --> 01:50:29.050 to take him away. It is a fraction of the number 01:50:29.050 --> 01:50:31.170 of calls that canines use where they ever actually 01:50:31.170 --> 01:50:34.500 even bite anyone. So you send a canine in, not 01:50:34.500 --> 01:50:37.060 only do the cops not got killed, but the perp 01:50:37.060 --> 01:50:39.840 doesn't get killed either. So everyone goes home. 01:50:39.920 --> 01:50:41.880 And even if there is a bite, the perp usually 01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:44.060 still goes home. Maybe they might be shredded 01:50:44.060 --> 01:50:46.100 their arm a little bit, but they're still alive. 01:50:46.359 --> 01:50:48.260 And it's the same to me with this conversation, 01:50:48.460 --> 01:50:50.699 having, you know, done jujitsu for a while and 01:50:50.699 --> 01:50:52.920 I haven't been a striker for a long time. You 01:50:52.920 --> 01:50:55.220 know, if, even if you put someone out for a moment 01:50:55.220 --> 01:50:57.239 and you got people watching you doing it, where 01:50:57.239 --> 01:50:59.600 you're going to let go. And now that you've cuffed 01:50:59.600 --> 01:51:02.699 them, that person wakes up and then. They go 01:51:02.699 --> 01:51:04.439 to prison and they're not dead and their loved 01:51:04.439 --> 01:51:06.079 ones still have a son or a daughter or whatever 01:51:06.079 --> 01:51:09.699 it is. And, you know, life goes on. But this 01:51:09.699 --> 01:51:12.119 is a very dangerous conversation where you start 01:51:12.119 --> 01:51:16.560 taking away tool, non -lethal tools that then 01:51:16.560 --> 01:51:19.659 are increasing the likelihood of an officer then 01:51:19.659 --> 01:51:23.579 going for lethal response instead. Yeah, you're 01:51:23.579 --> 01:51:25.960 right. And we've lost, I want to say three dogs 01:51:25.960 --> 01:51:27.699 here in South Carolina, maybe two with South 01:51:27.699 --> 01:51:29.840 Carolina Law Enforcement Division. And one of 01:51:29.840 --> 01:51:33.050 these individuals is a great. a jujitsu practitioner 01:51:33.050 --> 01:51:36.890 at my gym and just horrific to see him lose a 01:51:36.890 --> 01:51:40.890 family member, you know, to him. But that dog 01:51:40.890 --> 01:51:42.850 saved their lives. This individual was in a hallway 01:51:42.850 --> 01:51:47.430 with a high power rifle and the dog took it and 01:51:47.430 --> 01:51:50.970 saved that entry team's life. But yeah, not having 01:51:50.970 --> 01:51:54.250 that dog would have cost us, you know. a great 01:51:54.250 --> 01:51:56.649 officer. So it's tough because you're right. 01:51:56.670 --> 01:51:59.149 The optics, people look at that. And I think 01:51:59.149 --> 01:52:01.350 some of it is, did the dog just take the person 01:52:01.350 --> 01:52:03.529 down? The handler, don't let him gnaw on the 01:52:03.529 --> 01:52:08.270 leg for 60 seconds, right? But yeah, you got 01:52:08.270 --> 01:52:09.649 to have that. You got to have those capabilities 01:52:09.649 --> 01:52:12.430 because if not, then unfortunately, there's going 01:52:12.430 --> 01:52:15.170 to be more lethal interactions or more law enforcement 01:52:15.170 --> 01:52:16.489 individuals are going to get hurt. But I think 01:52:16.489 --> 01:52:18.069 the easy thing is, let's just start getting some 01:52:18.069 --> 01:52:21.569 people in jujitsu, man. I know my professor will 01:52:21.569 --> 01:52:25.539 pretty much give 75 % off to law enforcement 01:52:25.539 --> 01:52:28.520 to come in. And yet people still don't do it. 01:52:28.560 --> 01:52:30.560 We find other things to do. We got to level up 01:52:30.560 --> 01:52:33.960 and call of duty instead of go to jujitsu. Just 01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:36.359 come to jujitsu, man. It's fun. The hardest day 01:52:36.359 --> 01:52:38.220 is the first day walking on the mats. And I know 01:52:38.220 --> 01:52:39.699 you'd probably agree with this. The hardest day 01:52:39.699 --> 01:52:41.460 is walking to the gym and being like, I suck. 01:52:41.699 --> 01:52:43.760 We don't want to suck at something. But you know 01:52:43.760 --> 01:52:46.260 what? In one week, that version of you would 01:52:46.260 --> 01:52:49.189 kick that previous version's ass. would absolutely 01:52:49.189 --> 01:52:50.989 destroy him. And then another week that it's 01:52:50.989 --> 01:52:54.430 just this common, this, this metamorphosis of, 01:52:54.529 --> 01:52:57.010 of who you are as an individual, you get so much 01:52:57.010 --> 01:53:00.609 better. And even as a brown belt, you know, it's 01:53:00.609 --> 01:53:02.069 so frustrating because I want to get my black 01:53:02.069 --> 01:53:03.189 belt. I want to get my black belt, but I'm not 01:53:03.189 --> 01:53:05.869 ready. I have so much more to learn. Um, and 01:53:05.869 --> 01:53:07.890 that's the chase. That's the beauty of this is 01:53:07.890 --> 01:53:10.710 that we can go a hundred percent. I used to love 01:53:10.710 --> 01:53:12.390 doing Krav Maga and stuff, but you can't go a 01:53:12.390 --> 01:53:15.170 hundred percent, you know, jujitsu. I go a hundred 01:53:15.170 --> 01:53:19.359 percent. And at the end, i tap or the other individual 01:53:19.359 --> 01:53:21.140 i'm rolling with taps and we smile at each other 01:53:21.140 --> 01:53:22.560 and you know what we learned something we can 01:53:22.560 --> 01:53:24.760 battle test something hey i saw this buggy choke 01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:27.039 online let's try this that doesn't work for me 01:53:27.039 --> 01:53:29.159 so i'm just going to throw that out of the toolbox 01:53:29.159 --> 01:53:31.640 but what other thing in the world can you red 01:53:31.640 --> 01:53:35.779 team something with different shapes sizes ethnicities 01:53:35.779 --> 01:53:38.100 and see if it fits in your toolbox or not in 01:53:38.100 --> 01:53:40.119 such a timely fashion and throw things away or 01:53:40.119 --> 01:53:42.859 adopt things um that's that's what i love about 01:53:42.859 --> 01:53:46.000 it is you can change who you are um kind of plug 01:53:46.000 --> 01:53:49.340 and play um and There's no better place to meet 01:53:49.340 --> 01:53:53.220 people because there are felons, there are law 01:53:53.220 --> 01:53:55.680 enforcement, there's military, there's housewives, 01:53:55.880 --> 01:53:59.640 there's the whole gamuts of people in there. 01:54:00.060 --> 01:54:02.100 And people I probably wouldn't associate with 01:54:02.100 --> 01:54:04.159 if I didn't do jiu -jitsu. That's my tribe. So 01:54:04.159 --> 01:54:06.560 please go try it out. It may save your life. 01:54:06.779 --> 01:54:09.659 Absolutely. Well, on that theme, one more area. 01:54:11.279 --> 01:54:14.420 We are seeing in... I would argue quite a lot 01:54:14.420 --> 01:54:17.439 of places that fitness standards and other standards 01:54:17.439 --> 01:54:20.420 are being lowered with the, in my opinion, facade 01:54:20.420 --> 01:54:23.859 of increasing recruitment. What I've seen from 01:54:23.859 --> 01:54:26.720 my career working for four agencies is the one 01:54:26.720 --> 01:54:29.239 that actually had the highest standards that 01:54:29.239 --> 01:54:33.510 would lose or terminate. 25 % of the probationary 01:54:33.510 --> 01:54:35.630 class after the first year because they hadn't 01:54:35.630 --> 01:54:37.210 reached that bar, not because they were being 01:54:37.210 --> 01:54:39.350 dicks, but they just, you know, you didn't reach 01:54:39.350 --> 01:54:41.949 it. Those are the ones that had the biggest line 01:54:41.949 --> 01:54:44.930 outside the department. So with your, you know, 01:54:44.970 --> 01:54:47.449 kind of perspective on this, talk to me about, 01:54:47.449 --> 01:54:50.289 you know, recruitment and where standards should 01:54:50.289 --> 01:54:53.689 be. It's tough because you got to fill the seats 01:54:53.689 --> 01:54:56.050 in the training academy, right? And at the end 01:54:56.050 --> 01:54:59.529 of the day, what's causing that funnel to, and 01:54:59.529 --> 01:55:01.680 you see it in the military too. You see it out 01:55:01.680 --> 01:55:03.560 of basic training. You get individuals that can't 01:55:03.560 --> 01:55:05.300 meet the standards, so they put them in remedial 01:55:05.300 --> 01:55:09.159 at basic training because you have to put the 01:55:09.159 --> 01:55:11.520 individuals in the seats, unfortunately. But 01:55:11.520 --> 01:55:13.979 yeah, we're definitely seeing that standard. 01:55:14.260 --> 01:55:16.699 And I think a lot of that's society -based, right? 01:55:16.819 --> 01:55:18.579 Is that you got more people sitting down, less 01:55:18.579 --> 01:55:21.659 people walking, eating processed foods. And when 01:55:21.659 --> 01:55:22.899 that happens, you're going to put on weight, 01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:25.060 your joints are going to get all jacked up, and 01:55:25.060 --> 01:55:27.199 you see it in the gym this time of the year, 01:55:27.239 --> 01:55:30.029 right? People are going to turn over a new leaf, 01:55:30.090 --> 01:55:31.409 right, James? You're going to go down to the 01:55:31.409 --> 01:55:33.170 Planet Fitness or the Gold's Gym and everybody, 01:55:33.449 --> 01:55:36.449 man, I'm going to sign up for the year. And here 01:55:36.449 --> 01:55:38.229 in about three or four weeks, things will start 01:55:38.229 --> 01:55:40.590 to thin out because consistency beats intensity 01:55:40.590 --> 01:55:43.590 any day and people are not very consistent. So 01:55:43.590 --> 01:55:45.329 the way you have to look at this is, once again, 01:55:45.449 --> 01:55:47.810 best predictor of future behaviors, past behavior. 01:55:48.069 --> 01:55:50.529 If you have a 25 -year -old applicant that's 01:55:50.529 --> 01:55:53.310 morbidly obese, that's running a whatever mile 01:55:53.310 --> 01:55:55.600 and a half time and can't do a pull -up, Are 01:55:55.600 --> 01:55:57.220 they going to be able to turn their life around 01:55:57.220 --> 01:56:01.060 and be like David Goggins and all of a sudden 01:56:01.060 --> 01:56:03.359 they're a Navy SEAL? Chances are. That's why 01:56:03.359 --> 01:56:05.020 we love those redemption stories, right? That's 01:56:05.020 --> 01:56:07.399 why we love when we do see a story like a David 01:56:07.399 --> 01:56:10.159 Goggins or whatever. But very rarely do you see 01:56:10.159 --> 01:56:13.500 that. That's the exception to the rule. So as 01:56:13.500 --> 01:56:15.600 an organization, you've got to sit there and 01:56:15.600 --> 01:56:17.579 make decisions on who do you want representing 01:56:17.579 --> 01:56:19.279 you? What do you want these people to look like 01:56:19.279 --> 01:56:21.699 representing your organization? And when there's 01:56:21.699 --> 01:56:24.439 a foot chase and after 80 meters, this person. 01:56:24.859 --> 01:56:26.699 can't breathe. And on the radio, they sound like 01:56:26.699 --> 01:56:29.239 they're about to fall over. How do you remediate 01:56:29.239 --> 01:56:31.460 that? That's a problem. But, you know, at the 01:56:31.460 --> 01:56:33.500 end of the day, you've got to have the streets 01:56:33.500 --> 01:56:35.880 patrolled. You have to have people in the firehouse 01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:38.140 and you've got to have, uh, seats and basic training. 01:56:38.199 --> 01:56:40.579 So, um, I don't know what the answer is. Maybe 01:56:40.579 --> 01:56:42.880 some of these GLP ones, twos, and threes that 01:56:42.880 --> 01:56:45.000 are coming down the pipeline, you know, people 01:56:45.000 --> 01:56:47.260 can take the red of true tide and, uh, you know, 01:56:47.260 --> 01:56:49.020 it'd be the magic drug so that you can just eat 01:56:49.020 --> 01:56:51.439 whatever you want. I don't know. But, uh, Maybe 01:56:51.439 --> 01:56:52.920 there'll be a magic pill in the future. Yeah, 01:56:52.939 --> 01:56:54.680 I doubt it. Because even if you lose the body 01:56:54.680 --> 01:56:56.079 weight, you still haven't learned what it's like 01:56:56.079 --> 01:56:58.859 to actually work out. So it's horrible. You're 01:56:58.859 --> 01:57:01.500 correct. Yeah. I mean, from my profession, I 01:57:01.500 --> 01:57:04.319 know because we're seeing it happen now is that, 01:57:04.319 --> 01:57:06.579 you know, our work weeks have devolved to the 01:57:06.579 --> 01:57:08.859 point where, as I mentioned earlier, we're just 01:57:08.859 --> 01:57:11.640 losing people left, right and center. And now 01:57:11.640 --> 01:57:14.720 there's a progressive movement to shorten the 01:57:14.720 --> 01:57:17.699 work week to fill all these vacant spots and 01:57:17.699 --> 01:57:20.159 therefore give these men and women the rest and 01:57:20.159 --> 01:57:22.340 recovery and the environment to forge performance 01:57:22.340 --> 01:57:25.220 and go home to their families. Law enforcement, 01:57:25.300 --> 01:57:27.779 obviously, I think there needs to be also an 01:57:27.779 --> 01:57:30.619 element of support again and training and getting, 01:57:30.659 --> 01:57:32.840 you know, reversing this kind of anti -police 01:57:32.840 --> 01:57:36.119 element. But nationally, I couldn't agree more. 01:57:36.300 --> 01:57:40.100 You know, we spend 20 % of our GDP on health 01:57:40.100 --> 01:57:43.939 care. So, you know, I don't think in a year you've 01:57:43.939 --> 01:57:46.899 just removed food dyes from it. It cuts it like 01:57:46.899 --> 01:57:52.000 we have an obesity epidemic. No, red dye, whatever, 01:57:52.180 --> 01:57:55.100 is not going to change everything. You're correct. 01:57:55.159 --> 01:57:58.659 So 73 % of the nation is overweight or obese, 01:57:58.800 --> 01:58:02.899 of which I think 43 is clinically obese. So if 01:58:02.899 --> 01:58:05.359 that's not front and center of whatever political 01:58:05.359 --> 01:58:08.560 party is in power at that moment. then that's 01:58:08.560 --> 01:58:10.380 what we need to, you know, that's the revolution 01:58:10.380 --> 01:58:13.399 we should be having is the mental health and 01:58:13.399 --> 01:58:15.560 the physical health of this country. We turn 01:58:15.560 --> 01:58:18.260 that around, we would free up so many funds to 01:58:18.260 --> 01:58:20.819 support fire, law enforcement, education, etc. 01:58:22.039 --> 01:58:24.899 No, you're 100 % dialed in on that. It's just 01:58:24.899 --> 01:58:27.119 getting people to get off the couch is the hard 01:58:27.119 --> 01:58:31.140 part, right? They have to want to do it. And 01:58:31.140 --> 01:58:33.939 unfortunately, people have gotten comfortable 01:58:33.939 --> 01:58:36.350 being comfortable. Absolutely. All right. Well, 01:58:36.409 --> 01:58:38.810 we kind of hit the first benchmark of the book. 01:58:38.909 --> 01:58:41.369 Next one, using all your senses to build trust 01:58:41.369 --> 01:58:46.189 and influence. Yeah. So I already talked about 01:58:46.189 --> 01:58:48.789 sight. We already talked about hearing. As far 01:58:48.789 --> 01:58:50.029 as when I meet people, I'm going to have a little 01:58:50.029 --> 01:58:53.859 bit of a deeper tone to avoid that. first, uh, 01:58:53.880 --> 01:58:55.520 chase somebody got involved in and they get on 01:58:55.520 --> 01:58:56.979 the Rover and they sound like the 12 year old 01:58:56.979 --> 01:58:59.760 version of themselves. That's just a higher pitch 01:58:59.760 --> 01:59:02.060 voice carried further into the fields and forests 01:59:02.060 --> 01:59:04.600 to summon help in a tribal culture. And we identify 01:59:04.600 --> 01:59:06.279 it as that, like that person's stressed out. 01:59:06.340 --> 01:59:08.500 Right. So we try to hack that a little bit. Um, 01:59:08.800 --> 01:59:10.939 you know, slowing, slowing down helps, but also 01:59:10.939 --> 01:59:13.779 deepening that tone helps smell. Look, my son, 01:59:13.920 --> 01:59:15.680 uh, he's in college now, but when he was in high 01:59:15.680 --> 01:59:17.739 school, he was using Axe body spray as a shower, 01:59:17.899 --> 01:59:20.840 deodorant, whatever. Like you should never, your 01:59:20.840 --> 01:59:23.529 scent really should never. factor into that equation. 01:59:24.390 --> 01:59:27.590 Scents are important. I've had people in an interrogation 01:59:27.590 --> 01:59:29.609 room before, almost at that breaking moment, 01:59:29.729 --> 01:59:31.609 and they're like, man, this smells like jail. 01:59:32.210 --> 01:59:34.170 Because it did. The interrogation room smelled 01:59:34.170 --> 01:59:37.569 like stale cigarettes and urine, right? And that 01:59:37.569 --> 01:59:39.149 caused them to say, you know what? I want to 01:59:39.149 --> 01:59:41.310 talk to my lawyer. So I'm not saying we should 01:59:41.310 --> 01:59:45.149 put a Glade plug in in every interrogation room, 01:59:45.250 --> 01:59:48.010 but smell matters. And there's a lot of research 01:59:48.010 --> 01:59:50.340 associated with that touch. I'm a big fan of 01:59:50.340 --> 01:59:52.239 it. Haptics is important. Obviously, that's why 01:59:52.239 --> 01:59:54.159 we're shaking hands to start and finish, but 01:59:54.159 --> 01:59:56.119 also a little hand on someone's shoulder every 01:59:56.119 --> 01:59:57.859 once in a while, that connection. We got to be 01:59:57.859 --> 01:59:59.579 careful in today's culture because people misread 01:59:59.579 --> 02:00:01.420 things. And sometimes we're socially awkward 02:00:01.420 --> 02:00:02.880 and don't have the emotional intelligence to 02:00:02.880 --> 02:00:04.199 understand when's the right time and when's the 02:00:04.199 --> 02:00:07.359 right place to use it. But it can be very, very 02:00:07.359 --> 02:00:08.680 effective. And then when it comes to emotional 02:00:08.680 --> 02:00:12.340 regulation, before I go into a big event. I'm 02:00:12.340 --> 02:00:13.819 going to make sure that my headspace is right. 02:00:13.899 --> 02:00:16.779 I'm going to make sure I've eaten. I've had something 02:00:16.779 --> 02:00:19.119 to drink. I've got that good night's sleep. I'm 02:00:19.119 --> 02:00:21.020 wearing that comfortable but professional clothing. 02:00:21.359 --> 02:00:24.020 I've done the vocal warmup. I've got a little 02:00:24.020 --> 02:00:25.560 app on my phone. It just takes me 10 minutes 02:00:25.560 --> 02:00:27.239 to do a couple of tongue twisters and some stuff 02:00:27.239 --> 02:00:29.460 with my lungs. It's like a free app. I mean, 02:00:29.479 --> 02:00:31.859 there's no reason not to download it, but it 02:00:31.859 --> 02:00:33.300 gives you a little bit more vocal range when 02:00:33.300 --> 02:00:34.659 you're talking to somebody that lets you, because 02:00:34.659 --> 02:00:36.520 I may talk to somebody for two, three, four, 02:00:36.640 --> 02:00:38.420 five hours potentially. So I want to prepare 02:00:38.420 --> 02:00:40.760 for that. And then I want to have things ready 02:00:40.760 --> 02:00:43.020 for them. Food, water, whatever. When they come 02:00:43.020 --> 02:00:45.060 in, I can get that reciprocity by providing them 02:00:45.060 --> 02:00:47.579 those things. So that's what it is as far as 02:00:47.579 --> 02:00:49.739 getting in that right headspace. What's the name 02:00:49.739 --> 02:00:54.020 of the app you use? I think it's Vocal AI is 02:00:54.020 --> 02:00:57.500 what I use. I know there's a ton of them. I've 02:00:57.500 --> 02:01:00.600 tried several. This one's pretty slick. They 02:01:00.600 --> 02:01:02.979 do have a paid version as well, but I just use 02:01:02.979 --> 02:01:05.279 the free version. I get a lot out of it. Brilliant. 02:01:05.640 --> 02:01:08.399 All right. The next part, timing, mindset, influence, 02:01:08.600 --> 02:01:13.380 and listening. Yeah, so we're not approaching 02:01:13.380 --> 02:01:15.180 the person at the wrong time in the wrong place. 02:01:15.319 --> 02:01:17.140 So when we would do a lot of our search warrants 02:01:17.140 --> 02:01:18.659 on internet crimes against children cases in 02:01:18.659 --> 02:01:20.579 one of the states, we would always hit the house 02:01:20.579 --> 02:01:22.340 at six in the morning. And the other one, we 02:01:22.340 --> 02:01:24.659 would try to tactically determine, hey, if this 02:01:24.659 --> 02:01:26.199 person's at work, can we set up surveillance 02:01:26.199 --> 02:01:28.199 on this person so we can catch them in the parking 02:01:28.199 --> 02:01:31.619 lot? And when we hit people in the morning, the 02:01:31.619 --> 02:01:34.680 kids are there, their spouse is there. They have 02:01:34.680 --> 02:01:36.460 a little fight or flight dump when they get woken 02:01:36.460 --> 02:01:38.020 up. I'm sure if you're in the firehouse and that 02:01:38.020 --> 02:01:39.539 call comes on at four in the morning, it takes 02:01:39.539 --> 02:01:41.819 you a little bit to kind of get your your situational 02:01:41.819 --> 02:01:43.680 awareness. Plus, it's dangerous. You know, people 02:01:43.680 --> 02:01:46.199 get woken up. You know, we all have weapons in 02:01:46.199 --> 02:01:47.699 the United States. We have more weapons than 02:01:47.699 --> 02:01:52.250 we do people. So that can be a problem. So. I 02:01:52.250 --> 02:01:54.710 have to then kind of work to separate the person 02:01:54.710 --> 02:01:57.109 I'm talking to away from, because privacy is 02:01:57.109 --> 02:01:58.890 so important. It's that cash, that confessional, 02:01:58.949 --> 02:02:00.750 right? They're going to be a little hesitant 02:02:00.750 --> 02:02:02.130 talking around their kids and their wife about 02:02:02.130 --> 02:02:04.250 something that's so personal in nature. What 02:02:04.250 --> 02:02:06.789 I found is when we would do these afternoon search 02:02:06.789 --> 02:02:09.289 warrants, where we would pick up the person coming 02:02:09.289 --> 02:02:10.930 home from work or whatever, we could say, look, 02:02:11.029 --> 02:02:12.710 you know what? We approached you in this manner 02:02:12.710 --> 02:02:15.210 strategically because we're going to let you 02:02:15.210 --> 02:02:16.670 tell your wife. We're going to let you tell your 02:02:16.670 --> 02:02:18.949 kids. It comes off as respectful. And that's 02:02:18.949 --> 02:02:20.409 what it's all about. It's all about respecting 02:02:20.409 --> 02:02:22.600 every human. human being that we talk to. So 02:02:22.600 --> 02:02:25.880 the timing is very, very important. If I'm going 02:02:25.880 --> 02:02:27.239 to go ask for a raise or I'm going to go ask 02:02:27.239 --> 02:02:28.560 for a new position, I'm not going to do it at 02:02:28.560 --> 02:02:32.079 8 .45 when my boss, when he or she just got into 02:02:32.079 --> 02:02:34.020 work. They got emails to check. They're not into 02:02:34.020 --> 02:02:35.680 this. I'm not going to do that at 4 .30 either 02:02:35.680 --> 02:02:37.640 when they're trying to come up with dinner plans 02:02:37.640 --> 02:02:40.420 with their spouse. So there's that 10 and 2. 02:02:40.560 --> 02:02:43.779 Those tend to be the good times to have that 02:02:43.779 --> 02:02:47.020 timing of those difficult conversations. Beautiful. 02:02:47.359 --> 02:02:50.199 And the last one, how to spot lies and elicit 02:02:50.199 --> 02:02:53.699 the truth. Yeah. So spotting lies, we haven't 02:02:53.699 --> 02:02:56.420 talked about this. So the key for me is we suck 02:02:56.420 --> 02:02:58.380 at this. And then we're going to talk about incremental 02:02:58.380 --> 02:03:00.880 change. Anybody on a TikTok that says this is 02:03:00.880 --> 02:03:02.079 a hundred percent, they're lying to you. Just 02:03:02.079 --> 02:03:04.640 skip it. All right. But if we could get you 10 02:03:04.640 --> 02:03:07.319 or 15 % and headed in the right direction, I 02:03:07.319 --> 02:03:09.699 mean, you get lied to 20 times a day. So that 02:03:09.699 --> 02:03:11.819 may help you quite a bit. Most of them are very 02:03:11.819 --> 02:03:13.920 innocuous, but the way I look at it is this, 02:03:13.939 --> 02:03:16.000 let's start first with a mission is the number 02:03:16.000 --> 02:03:18.270 one way people lie to you. And it's them telling 02:03:18.270 --> 02:03:20.510 a story and they can take you wherever they want 02:03:20.510 --> 02:03:22.010 to take you. And they can lie with anywhere in 02:03:22.010 --> 02:03:24.189 that story. We have to do open -ended questions. 02:03:24.409 --> 02:03:26.630 It's important. But that's where people lie to 02:03:26.630 --> 02:03:29.710 you very, very easily. So let me say this. James, 02:03:29.789 --> 02:03:31.409 do you have anybody that tells tall tales about 02:03:31.409 --> 02:03:33.470 their bench press totals, their luck with the 02:03:33.470 --> 02:03:35.689 ladies, their salary, the cars they own, their 02:03:35.689 --> 02:03:37.289 hunting, fishing exploits? Do you know anybody 02:03:37.289 --> 02:03:39.840 like that? I'm sure I do. I don't. seek them 02:03:39.840 --> 02:03:42.739 out too much but yeah i'm sure sure well let's 02:03:42.739 --> 02:03:44.319 say they're telling you a tall tale and you don't 02:03:44.319 --> 02:03:45.600 want to be disrespectful you don't want to call 02:03:45.600 --> 02:03:46.880 them out you don't want to call them a liar but 02:03:46.880 --> 02:03:49.140 they're telling you you know what i caught 47 02:03:49.140 --> 02:03:52.619 peacock bass when i was down at the whatever 02:03:52.619 --> 02:03:54.819 they're talking about some fishing exploits and 02:03:54.819 --> 02:03:57.239 you're like i don't think bob's much of a fisher 02:03:57.239 --> 02:03:59.300 and there's no way he caught 47 of them they 02:03:59.300 --> 02:04:02.039 weren't this big right the way you get around 02:04:02.039 --> 02:04:03.520 that is you let them tell their tall tale and 02:04:03.520 --> 02:04:04.899 then you put the dog on the leash and you put 02:04:04.899 --> 02:04:07.680 a yes or no question you say bob uh man you caught 02:04:07.979 --> 02:04:10.579 You caught 47 fish. Here's what's going to happen. 02:04:10.720 --> 02:04:12.539 Now he's got to make a choice. The spotlight's 02:04:12.539 --> 02:04:14.340 on him. You've made it into a yes or no question. 02:04:14.439 --> 02:04:16.399 And what typically will happen is they will say, 02:04:16.520 --> 02:04:18.159 man, I don't know how many it was, but it was 02:04:18.159 --> 02:04:21.060 a lot. All right. Why did they do that? Because 02:04:21.060 --> 02:04:24.220 they know it wasn't 47. But by them saying it 02:04:24.220 --> 02:04:26.659 was a lot, now they're hedging their bets. They're 02:04:26.659 --> 02:04:30.319 not getting that adrenaline release. The spotlight's 02:04:30.319 --> 02:04:33.100 subtly off them. So turning everything into a 02:04:33.100 --> 02:04:34.699 yes or no question at some point is very, very 02:04:34.699 --> 02:04:37.439 helpful because you're forcing something. You 02:04:37.439 --> 02:04:39.119 may be also forcing the next thing, a delay. 02:04:39.640 --> 02:04:42.699 So when I get a yes, yes, yes, no, no, no. And 02:04:42.699 --> 02:04:44.840 that's the typical pattern, but it goes, yes, 02:04:44.920 --> 02:04:49.319 yes, no. And there's that subtle delay. And now 02:04:49.319 --> 02:04:51.960 it's also not a no with an exclamation point. 02:04:52.039 --> 02:04:54.399 It's a no with a question mark. If I asked my 02:04:54.399 --> 02:04:58.340 daughter, did you clean your room? Yes. That's 02:04:58.340 --> 02:05:02.100 not an exclamation point. So I'll, and I'll just 02:05:02.100 --> 02:05:05.970 say, okay, so that's a no. Yeah. Or lying specifically. 02:05:06.170 --> 02:05:07.750 Did you get your homework done? I got my math 02:05:07.750 --> 02:05:11.829 homework done. Okay. What other homework do you 02:05:11.829 --> 02:05:15.729 have? My biology homework. LY statements. Usually, 02:05:15.909 --> 02:05:19.329 normally, typically. That's usually when usual, 02:05:19.430 --> 02:05:21.109 normal, and typical didn't happen. Whatever they 02:05:21.109 --> 02:05:23.909 just said. You know, when I go to the gym, I 02:05:23.909 --> 02:05:26.229 usually go there for three hours. Okay. Well, 02:05:26.270 --> 02:05:27.590 you didn't go there for three hours this time. 02:05:27.869 --> 02:05:30.109 Why did they put usual in there? There's a problem 02:05:30.109 --> 02:05:34.279 with that. shake in the head yes while they say 02:05:34.279 --> 02:05:36.600 no or nod in the head no when they say yes. It's 02:05:36.600 --> 02:05:39.060 really hard to do. And when it happens, it's 02:05:39.060 --> 02:05:43.140 ask the question again, put a red flag next to 02:05:43.140 --> 02:05:45.920 that. So those are some common things that we 02:05:45.920 --> 02:05:49.079 see, delay, equivocation, exclusive qualifiers. 02:05:49.820 --> 02:05:51.840 the mismatch between the spoken word and the 02:05:51.840 --> 02:05:53.880 body language. Body language is a terrible for 02:05:53.880 --> 02:05:56.079 detecting deception. It's usually discomfort. 02:05:56.760 --> 02:06:00.260 But when it's the yes, no contradiction, that's 02:06:00.260 --> 02:06:02.340 when the congruence isn't there. That's something 02:06:02.340 --> 02:06:05.239 that we really, really highly look at. So we've 02:06:05.239 --> 02:06:06.899 determined, hey, they haven't been honest with 02:06:06.899 --> 02:06:08.939 us. Then we move on to how we get the truth. 02:06:09.300 --> 02:06:11.600 And that's when I kind of use that buddy methodology 02:06:11.600 --> 02:06:14.260 that I kind of used with the Harry S. Truman, 02:06:14.359 --> 02:06:16.439 where I blame, I understand, diminish impact. 02:06:17.119 --> 02:06:18.800 Tell them a story that somewhat relates to that 02:06:18.800 --> 02:06:22.020 and focus on their whys, and that usually will 02:06:22.020 --> 02:06:25.260 open up the what for us. Totally going out left 02:06:25.260 --> 02:06:28.399 field again with this question, but how have 02:06:28.399 --> 02:06:31.100 we got to a point where it is acceptable for 02:06:31.100 --> 02:06:33.920 our politicians to lie, yet every other avenue 02:06:33.920 --> 02:06:37.039 we are held to such staunch truth when it comes 02:06:37.039 --> 02:06:41.220 to true leadership? Our politicians are our citizens. 02:06:42.690 --> 02:06:44.970 Sadly, that's what we've all devolved to, but 02:06:44.970 --> 02:06:46.470 without getting into specifics, I'll just go 02:06:46.470 --> 02:06:50.829 no comment on that. Okay. All righty. Well, for 02:06:50.829 --> 02:06:52.430 people listening then, let's get to the book 02:06:52.430 --> 02:06:54.689 first. Where can they find the book and when 02:06:54.689 --> 02:06:57.939 can they find the book? Yeah. February 17th. 02:06:57.939 --> 02:06:59.680 So I don't know when the, uh, when the episode 02:06:59.680 --> 02:07:01.500 will drop, but yeah, a couple of weeks, I think 02:07:01.500 --> 02:07:04.640 27 days from this taping. So I'm excited. Uh, 02:07:04.720 --> 02:07:08.319 bradleybeeler .com, uh, Barnes and Noble, uh, 02:07:08.500 --> 02:07:10.420 books a million. Uh, and then most people buy 02:07:10.420 --> 02:07:12.359 their books now on Amazon. So it's all on there 02:07:12.359 --> 02:07:15.439 already. You can pre -order it. Um, but yeah, 02:07:15.439 --> 02:07:19.699 and I, on Instagram at bradbeeler1865, also the 02:07:19.699 --> 02:07:21.319 same moniker on LinkedIn. I try to put a lot 02:07:21.319 --> 02:07:23.890 of content on Instagram just to help. And anybody 02:07:23.890 --> 02:07:25.609 can feel free to connect me, direct message me, 02:07:25.630 --> 02:07:27.270 anything. If I can help in any way or point you 02:07:27.270 --> 02:07:28.710 in the right direction, I'd be absolutely happy 02:07:28.710 --> 02:07:31.630 to. Brilliant. Well, a few closing questions 02:07:31.630 --> 02:07:33.770 for you. The first one I'd love to ask, is there 02:07:33.770 --> 02:07:36.090 a book or are there books written by other people 02:07:36.090 --> 02:07:38.529 that you'd love to recommend? It can be related 02:07:38.529 --> 02:07:40.810 to our conversation today or completely unrelated. 02:07:42.149 --> 02:07:46.890 Yeah, I love Spy the Lie. Great book. I also 02:07:46.890 --> 02:07:49.609 like What Everybody is Saying by Joe Navarro. 02:07:50.300 --> 02:07:53.319 Those are two very, very good books. I've got 02:07:53.319 --> 02:07:57.600 them over here. Cues by Vanessa Van Edwards is 02:07:57.600 --> 02:07:59.619 excellent. And that's about first impressions, 02:07:59.739 --> 02:08:02.399 body language, how to make yourself more charismatic 02:08:02.399 --> 02:08:05.039 and all your interactions, which can help anybody. 02:08:05.159 --> 02:08:07.640 So those are three really good books that I like. 02:08:07.680 --> 02:08:09.380 And I'm probably missing a couple off the top 02:08:09.380 --> 02:08:11.819 of my head. But as far as universal books that 02:08:11.819 --> 02:08:13.460 almost anybody can benefit from, those are three 02:08:13.460 --> 02:08:16.619 definitely. Excellent. What about films, documentaries, 02:08:16.939 --> 02:08:22.909 TV shows that you love? Man, I hit the Americans 02:08:22.909 --> 02:08:26.649 like once a year and I roll through it and then 02:08:26.649 --> 02:08:30.670 Homeland. Just literally once a year, I'll probably 02:08:30.670 --> 02:08:32.850 hit that. And then every other year I watch all 02:08:32.850 --> 02:08:34.869 five seasons of The Wire just because it's the 02:08:34.869 --> 02:08:37.149 greatest show ever made. It really is. I literally 02:08:37.149 --> 02:08:38.909 was the only introduced to it. I mean, people 02:08:38.909 --> 02:08:41.050 have mentioned it on here in the past and I finally, 02:08:41.090 --> 02:08:42.989 you know, it clicked and I went and found it 02:08:42.989 --> 02:08:47.720 on HBO. So well done. The Baltimore PD and they 02:08:47.720 --> 02:08:49.960 went to the politics, they went all those different 02:08:49.960 --> 02:08:54.720 angles, but the Baltimore PD doing the assisting 02:08:54.720 --> 02:08:57.140 in the production, that's just solid, solid work. 02:08:57.279 --> 02:08:59.960 Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, the next question, 02:09:00.119 --> 02:09:01.920 is there a person that you recommend to come 02:09:01.920 --> 02:09:04.899 on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first 02:09:04.899 --> 02:09:07.079 responders, military and associated professions 02:09:07.079 --> 02:09:10.600 of the world? Wow. That's great. Somebody that 02:09:10.600 --> 02:09:15.000 helped me a lot, and I'd reach out to Dr. Stacy 02:09:15.000 --> 02:09:19.760 with Obsidian Forensics. She works with the Washington 02:09:19.760 --> 02:09:21.739 Internet Crimes Against Children, and I'll give 02:09:21.739 --> 02:09:24.659 you that information. But she really helped me 02:09:24.659 --> 02:09:26.539 with the mental health aspect of dealing with 02:09:26.539 --> 02:09:29.979 these types of offenders, pedophiles, hebophiles. 02:09:30.239 --> 02:09:33.680 Hebophiles are people that offend from post -puberty, 02:09:33.680 --> 02:09:36.189 but... you know, that are, can't legally give 02:09:36.189 --> 02:09:39.010 consent. Um, that's really most of the people 02:09:39.010 --> 02:09:41.350 that we, we deal with that 12 to 15 year old, 02:09:41.350 --> 02:09:43.789 uh, offender range. So, um, she really, really 02:09:43.789 --> 02:09:45.850 helped me deal with that and came up with some 02:09:45.850 --> 02:09:47.470 strategies. So I think she'd be great on the 02:09:47.470 --> 02:09:49.489 show, talking mental health issues, those types 02:09:49.489 --> 02:09:52.430 of things. Um, so yeah, that'd be banger guests 02:09:52.430 --> 02:09:53.989 for you. Brilliant. We'll have to make that happen 02:09:53.989 --> 02:09:56.449 then. Thank you. All right. Well then the last 02:09:56.449 --> 02:09:58.189 question before we just reiterate where everyone 02:09:58.189 --> 02:10:02.890 can find you, what do you do to decompress? choke 02:10:02.890 --> 02:10:08.289 people out me too smother them murder yoga i 02:10:08.289 --> 02:10:10.869 love that that name yeah murder yoga that's it 02:10:10.869 --> 02:10:14.149 all right well then so you mentioned uh you know 02:10:14.149 --> 02:10:15.890 the book is coming out next month then so let's 02:10:15.890 --> 02:10:17.850 just kind of underline one more time the website 02:10:17.850 --> 02:10:21.739 and then the uh social media handle yep bradleybeeler 02:10:21.739 --> 02:10:26.460 .com and then bradbeeler1865 on Instagram and 02:10:26.460 --> 02:10:29.420 LinkedIn. And then you can just type in Brad 02:10:29.420 --> 02:10:31.279 Beeler or tell me everything in Amazon and it'll 02:10:31.279 --> 02:10:33.520 pop up. So appreciate you guys picking up the 02:10:33.520 --> 02:10:35.739 book. Well, Brad, I want to thank you so much. 02:10:35.800 --> 02:10:37.579 I mean, we've been all over the place. I mean, 02:10:37.600 --> 02:10:40.840 picking apart polygraphs and obviously the horrendous 02:10:40.840 --> 02:10:43.380 crimes against children and all the other conversations. 02:10:43.539 --> 02:10:46.079 So I want to thank you so, so much for being 02:10:46.079 --> 02:10:48.180 so generous with your time and coming on the 02:10:48.180 --> 02:10:51.140 Behind the Shield podcast today. It was a pleasure, 02:10:51.180 --> 02:10:52.659 James. Thanks for all the great questions. You 02:10:52.659 --> 02:10:54.000 went some places I haven't gone before.