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or go to carnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name
is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome on the show veteran British
firefighter, fire service fitness advisor, and
the man behind fitness for the front line, Mark
Pierce. Now, in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics, from his own journey into the
fire service, the initial fitness standards,
training a tactical athlete, hiring standards
and injury prevention, the importance of rest
and recovery, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment, go to
whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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others to find. And this is a free library of
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women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said... I introduce to you
Mark Pearce. Enjoy. Well, Mark, I want to start
by saying thank you so much for taking the time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
No problem. Thanks a lot for inviting me. I'm
looking forward to it. So where on planet Earth
are we finding you this afternoon? So I'm in
the beautiful, sunny place of South Derbyshire,
right in the middle of England. So although I
work in Staffordshire, it's like the neighbouring
sort of county, but in beautiful South Derbyshire.
Brilliant. Well, let's start at the very beginning
of your timeline then. So tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
Okay, cool. So it seems like many years ago now,
on a warm winter's night. No, so I was born in
Southampton. So although I live in the Midlands
now, I'm from like sort of, which is right at
the bottom of England. Yep, so I was born, mum,
dad, older brother. Me, mum and dad, quite a...
mixed sort of background my dad was in the army
uh before i was born but he was he sort of went
sort of straight from school and he was he's
from like a military sort of like a background
but in the like the majority of the life especially
as a life as i sort of knew him he was a factory
worker so work sort of long shifts long hours
um but sort of proper shifts not like firefighter
shifts as in you know sort of half an hour break
in the morning half an hour break in the afternoon
that type of thing my mom worked in the school
as a teaching assistant So, yeah, it was a pretty
good sort of childhood, really. Couldn't really
complain. Didn't really ask for, didn't sort
of need for much, really. And we were, my parents
were quite sort of trusting parents, my mum especially.
She was quite a cool mum, really. And my brother,
so he's four years older than me, so he lives
a bit further up in the Midlands, weirdly, so
we've both sort of moved away from the South.
He's an aspiring sort of writer at the moment.
So he lives with his wife up north. Yep. So I
live now in the Midlands for about nearly about
20 years now with wife, two dogs and two kids.
Brilliant. With your dad, if I think about the
generation kind of before us, the Falklands War
is the only conflict I think of when it comes
to British that really pops to mind. Did he deploy
in any combat when he was serving? Not so much
Falklands, but he was in Ireland. So he was like
the early 70s. So he went to Ireland a lot, you
know, a lot of the peak of the IRA and things
like that. It's very frustrating because my parents
have both passed now. So when I was younger,
I obviously sort of knew my dad was in the army.
We talked a little bit about it, but not much.
When you're a kid, you know, you're doing other
things. The older I get. I would love to now
to sort of spend hours with him and pick his
brains because he was never arrogant about it.
He never really told stories as most sort of
military people don't. They're not the loudest
people in the room. Yet when you really sort
of dig down on what they've seen and dealt with,
you think, Jesus, how are you still a functioning
bloke? Because I remember there's a, I don't
know if it was a big film in America, but there
was a film called 71. And it's basically set
about the conflict in Ireland. And I told my
dad about it and it's loosely based on the truth.
And I started to say a couple of things that
was in the film. And he said, oh, yeah, yeah,
I saw something like that. Oh, yeah, I saw a
mate of mine got sort of blew up down an alley
and things like that. And I was sort of spat
in the street. And you think, well, you've never
mentioned this before. And it was so sort of
blasé. But yeah, so he never spoke about it much.
But like I say, the older I get now, I would
have loved to have found out what he actually
got up to. It's so interesting. I've had people
on here that were regular military, SAS, on that
side talking about Northern Ireland. I've had
people talking about growing up in Belfast and
the other side of it. And it's just so mad to
me. It really is. I've said this. People say,
oh, do you be an English? Do you hate the Welsh?
Do you hate the Scottish? Do you hate the Irish?
And I'm like, no. We live on two tiny rocks in
the middle of the sea. We're all the same people.
But how that got to the point, and we obviously
understand some of the rough history of the occupation
and where we are today, but that you have whatever
you want to call all four countries, let's just
say the United Isles of the sea, literally fighting
each other. And even the Welsh borders and the
Scottish borders. that people that are such close
proximity would be set against each other for,
you know, really, for people that live in castles
to get more money and power. Yeah, and it's quite
sort of scary how sort of quickly it snowballs
as well. So, again, I don't know the ins and
outs of the history, but especially the island
thing, it just seemed to escalate and escalate.
And, you know, I suppose it happens sort of now.
You dig down, you think it's like sort of good
versus evil, but it's never that sort of black
and white. There's always a... a politics reason
or a money reason or you know and now there's
a lot of oil sort of talk and things like that
is there isn't like the good versus bad kind
of battle and that's you know that's the the
weird thing about the about the military I mean
I admire anyone who goes in there to be fair
is something I've never done and could never
do but then I always wonder if they feel You
know, like when they are sort of sent out to
places, you think, do you actually know what
you're fighting for? And I think it's such a
blurred line now. Why are we going over to this
sort of remote country in the middle of nowhere
to try and solve a conflict that we're essentially
picking aside? And it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.
So it'd be interesting to see if people within
the military sort of feel the same. Yeah, I know.
I mean, I've had so many veterans on the show
and, you know, especially Iraq. you know that
why were we there because they were lied to they
were blatantly lied to we know that not only
was it kind of coupled into the response to 9
11 two completely different countries but also
the weapons of mass destruction and some of these
other things you know these these men that lost
friends over there you know and lost um allied
forces over there they worked alongside and saw
you know iraqis killed all over this this conflict.
And then they come, you know, 20 years later,
they really are left with the question of what
was it all for? And I totally get it. And they,
and they absolutely made a difference in the
micro areas when they were protecting people
in certain communities, but the mission that
they were told, you know, the cups moved and
all of a sudden it wasn't the same anymore. And
I think that we talk from a mental health, moral
injury point of view, that must be crushing to
a soldier. yeah and i don't know how you because
i always just sort of hear stories of people
who when they when they come out of that environment
then they're sort of down sort of tesco's and
they're doing the shopping and taking the kids
to school to go from that to that it must have
your brain copes because you get into a and we
we experience it in the fire service and in a
microcosm i'm not comparing it to the military
at all but when you're on a job no matter how
sort of bad it is you're in sort of work zone
and you sort of you don't really see the bodies
and the dead people on that because you've got
a job to do and you're there for like an hour
or two or three hours or whatever but then but
then you come back and it's only when you sort
of sat down with a with a brew and you start
to think jesus christ that was a dangerous one
oh jesus that that that family's had their lives
sort of turned inside out but it's that times
a million in the military i imagine because it's
whole countries and regions and areas And as
you say, because most military battles, battles
or conflicts, if you like, they tend to start
with a plan and the prime minister or the president
will come out and say, yeah, we've got a two
year plan, three year plan, then we're going
to withdraw after this many years. I don't think
there's been one that's been as tidy as that.
And even when they've left, it's still in the
same state. So there never seems to be a, it's
not like, you know, it sounds like a good old
sort of classic, like the World Wars, but that
was like. It was a bit more sort of black and
white then. I mean, I was a winner, you know,
but the knock on of that, I don't think wars
happen like that anymore. It just seems to be
a lot more sort of messy and blurred and very
uncomfortable sort of viewing from the outside.
I saw a statistic the other day. The Russians
have now lost 1 .2 million people in the conflict
so far. And again, you think about how many Russian,
let's say young men. woke up and went you know
what i'd love to do today is invade ukraine like
i would have i would imagine very very very few
so this is what's so tragic is when some of these
people make these decisions you know and these
decisions don't involve their own children going
to war you know we see this history repeats itself
ireland gaza you know ukraine i mean over and
over and over again the cycle of division and
war and as you said and it never And I think,
you know, even with the Bible, I was talking
to some people recently, I'm not super religious,
but to me, I feel like the old Testament is like,
here's how we used to do it. And it didn't fucking
work because everyone kept dying. So here's Jesus
love, compassion, kindness, community service,
you know, try that, try that instead. I think
you're going to have a lot more luck with that
than continuously torturing and killing each
other. Yeah, exactly. I just think that the reach
is a lot sort of. of smaller i think you know
just sort of look after your friends your family
your community and go from there i don't like
this sort of massive outreach all the time i
don't know just i don't know the ins and outs
of it i don't to be honest i'm not a big fan
of the news in terms of because it just depresses
me you know so i try and keep out of it as much
as possible i don't tend to not i'm not there's
not many things i get really sort of passionate
on one side of the fence because it's the information
that we're fed as well yeah i'm very sort of
did this sort of trustful of the media and things
like that and even no matter how sort of black
and white it looks like on the bbc or whatever
i'm thinking yeah but if you watch sort of something
else they've got the completely the like the
other side and the other view so i think what
we're told is very selective and you know as
you mentioned like the stuff for tony blair and
the and the weapons of mass destruction for years
and years and it turned out it was a massive
lie and it was the whole thing was built on it
and we were told that they were this this big
sort of scary country with all these sort of
bombs it turns out it wasn't that at all and
you think oh i don't know so i get a bit sort
of like a was it in is it an ostrich that sticks
his head in the sand is it i'm a bit sort of
like you know i'll sort of deal with it when
it affects me but i just prefer to look after
myself and my own and then sort of look too far
afield yeah well i think that's it they say you
want to change the world start at home but we've
also got to look at history and go okay this
same thing keeps happening the next time someone
rises up and said they're going to be the leader
of everyone else and here's what you need to
do maybe just maybe we need to as you said focus
on our communities and stop picking fights with
other countries yeah definitely all right well
then what about sports and exercise what were
you playing and doing school age so it's a bit
strange at school because i was quite well i
was really overweight at school um but i played
a lot of sport at the same time so i was never
I was never sort of like the kid at the back.
I played a lot of football, a bit of tennis and
basketball and things like that. But I was really
shy. And whether that was sort of linked to me
weight, I don't know. But I was really shy. But
I was in a lot of semi -cool groups, if you like,
always at the back. I was never at the forefront
or anything. So I played a lot of sport, was
okay for football. But I think my nerves and
my shyness sort of held me back. So I played
for the odd team here and there, but not really
consistently. So I was fitter than I looked,
which is pretty much the same as now, really,
because I'm not one of those with a six pack
and things like that, but I can handle myself
in the gym and things. But yeah, so I played
a lot. I loved sport in terms of sort of watching
it and was obsessed with it, as with most kids
sort of growing up in the late 80s and 90s, obsessed
with football. And me and my brother used to
collect all the stickers and watch every game
that was on and things like that. But it kind
of, it was more of a love of sport and it was
something, and we're sort of, touch on it a bit
sort of later about about my career now but I
like the I was obsessed with the idea of of being
a footballer and I like I like my sort of music
as well so I like I was obsessed with the idea
of being not being famous but fascinated by the
persona of people and I used to sort of read
autobiographies and stuff like that and and to
know what it was like and the good side and bad
side of all that sort of side of it I found it
all quite fascinating. and move jumping right
the way forward like i say we can't catch a minute
but where i am now in like going down i admire
the a lot of the academic side of work and what
i do and that's what i sort of envy now and that's
what i look at people who are doing all these
like research sort of projects and working universities
in a weird way i've got the same thing i used
to sort of look at footballers and i have to
look now i think i'd love to make a difference
i'd love to get involved in that so i've always
been on the outside sort of looking in but i've
never had an interest of being I've never been
the loudest person in the room and things like
that. And it's never really sort of interested
me. But at the same time, I've been sort of fascinated
by people who were like that and the super talented
people in the world. I find that really interesting
to watch someone be really good at something.
Have you, by any chance, watched the show Welcome
to Wrexham? Yes. Well, I watched the first couple
of series, but yeah. I was blown away. So I grew
up, my dad wasn't a big football fan. We watched
football, but he certainly didn't have a team.
He didn't ever go see, you know, live events.
And even when I was little, Bath was winning
all the rugby games, but we never really watched
that either. And so, you know, fast forward now,
I'm 51 and I'm watching this show. I've been
binge watching it. It started season one, I don't
know, like a week ago. But it was such a beautiful
insight into what football used to mean. Before,
like you said, the fame and the million -dollar
salaries and all that stuff, or pound salaries,
where that would be miners or steelworkers or
whatever it was all going to the game, having
a pint, going to watch the game and be able to
let off some steam. And then how that factored
into the industry in that village or town as
well. So I've been blown away how well they've
portrayed that human element on a game that's
so, so... prestigious now and there's so much
money in it and it's owned by billionaires, most
of the teams, but at its root for them to be
able to show the history and take this small
team that still has that kind of element about
it and then help them elevate. I mean, it's one
of the best things I've seen on television for
a while. And they kept, you know, Ryan and Rob,
you know, these big Hollywood A -listers. Yes,
they're in it, of course, but I love the way
that they haven't put themselves front and center.
They put the team and the town front and center.
Yeah, I was just going to say that. Although
it's about football and they're in it, they're
not really the point of it. It's to follow the
characters. And I love the way that they pick
the same fans and follow them week in, week out.
Because there's another one, it was probably
10 years ago, called Sunderland Till I Die. And
obviously it was about Sunderland. It's on Netflix.
And that was, again, exactly the same. So I think
that was the predecessor to Welcome to Wrexham.
But it would sort of... follow the fans who were
getting ready in the morning or saturday morning
and getting on the coach and getting on the bus
or getting the train and they're all as you say
they're all sort of working class and there's
loads of sort of banter and sense of humor and
things like that and you think you forget what
it means to people because it is obsessive it
is a spot i mean i've the older i've got i've
got sort of less interested and i think it's
because of what you said i think because it's
It's a business now and it's all about the footballers
and they're all like brands and I just don't
get the same sort of love on it. And whether
it's got other things, obviously with kids and
jobs and everything sort of gets in the way,
gets in the way, that sounds horrible, but you
know what I mean? a lot your priorities change
um but it's just not the same and i like to look
back and watch all the old sort of 90s games
and when when they're being sort of interviewed
onto tv sort of like the good old days but whether
every generation does the same i don't know so
whether the kids now in 20 30 years time are
going to look back how would you like to remember
this and remember that but it it's just too shiny
now too corporate and too like they're not owned
by the by a local sort of businessman anymore
they're owned by as you say sort of trillionaires
around the country it's a business opportunity
really it's not for the love for the love of
the club and it's it it has changed I think that's
a reflection in society though I think there's
sort of so much now that it's just too everything
whether that's down to social media and things
like that without sort of sound like an old git
but It just, everything is too sort of temporary
and shiny and all for show. And look how great
my life is where there isn't any harm in sort
of struggling or seeing somebody, you know, sort
of achieve something that's kind of small for
them, but still sort of really impressive. I
think there's a yearning to go back to that.
I've said this many times. It's kind of one of
the themes that's just, you know, common at the
moment. we were young we had blue peter we had
john craven's news round we had comic relief
we had live aid you know we had people doing
nice things to other people and some of them
were you know several continents away but we
cared as a shared humanity and i agree we've
got the i've said this recently a lot you know
the monopoly having all the money has been put
on the pedestal like in the business world that's
the thing to take all the money from everyone
else you're the winner Instead of, as we know,
what works well around the world is each village
has its own butcher and baker and et cetera,
et cetera. And this young generation from the
technology, I'm seeing that they are going into
the trades because they're seeing that education,
unless you want to be a doctor or a lawyer or
something, a lot of these tracks don't result
in any real guarantee of a job. And then there's
a romanticizing of... our childhood so cassettes
and records and you know the music and the films
and getting back to that so i think that this
this whole thing i'm excited because i think
it's gonna collapse in a good way like the the
greed for having all the money to be you know
everyone looking at you on social media whatever
and people just going back to the community that
really is at the core of being a human being
Yes, it does seem more like a bit of a phase
now. So a lot of kids are drawn in by it, but
then they soon sort of come out the other side.
I do think it's down to your upbringing as well.
So like my daughter, for example, she really
loves Harry Styles and all that kind of still,
but she really likes her old sort of music as
well, her music that her mum used to listen to
and a lot when we were sort of growing up. So
there is definitely a coolness in the retro.
in the nostalgic and i do think that hopefully
is a thing that kind of sticks around because
for the same of us growing up we like the odd
sort of see it was kind of cool to like the who
and the jam and the beatles or whatever and this
is the equivalent now so they might be sort of
listening to kind of like the cure or the smiths
or something like that so it does sort of knock
on um i just i think i think my biggest fear
is the is the comparison where everyone only
puts on like the best bit about their life and
then so everyone sort of has a glance at it and
think that's normal and think you know to kind
of look whether it's to look a particular way
or earn an amount of money or drive the best
car and that's starting to rub off I think kids
because they want the best car they you know
they can't have a banger for example for their
first car and bum around for a couple of years
that a lot they want the really nice cars with
all the bells and whistles on and that's what
kind of I think there's no sort of working for
stuff anymore whether because because maybe me
and the missus had a conversation the other day
about sort of work and that as well so when we
when we went to school then we you might have
gone to college and i did go to uni so sort of
many many years ago but it was it wasn't sort
of forced on me but then as soon as i finished
whatever education it was just to get a job and
you at first thought it wasn't a conversation
with your parents or you didn't sort of do a
little part -time job here it was just i'm going
to get any kind of job i can to earn money because
my next sort of stage is moving out and it was
like sort of natural when now it seems more normal
for kids to do sort of little part -time jobs
and sort of stay at home a little bit longer
half of it is the house prices i know because
they're because they're sort of like ridiculous
but i don't know that there doesn't seem to be
that drive to be sort of self -sufficient anymore
because we've all gone a bit nice and we're all
quite happy to live in our sort of mid 20s late
20s with our parents when i thought when when
did that happen because i wanted to get out as
soon as possible and i had good parents so do
you know what i mean so it's that kind of of
self -sufficiency i think that a lot of young
people don't really strive for nowadays yeah
well both my boys are chomping at the bit one
left he was a little bit older he was about 20
um but my 18 year old was trying to go to college
it just didn't make any sense on paper to do
the first year first two years in a different
state But the moment he's finished his second
year, he's out. But that's the ideal thing, isn't
it? But what I think is silly, though, is if
you live in the same town and you're not married
or have kids, then don't move out and pay a crazy
amount for a one -bedroom flat. Because I think
you see some of the cultures that have the multi
-generational households, and it makes a lot
more sense financially. a partner and children
of course then absolutely you need your own space
or you go into somewhere else you know in the
country or overseas and yeah i think that's another
another good one but the other side of the coin
i think is you know immediately flinging them
out when they're 18 and they get down the road
yeah no but there are people that do that oh
as soon as they took them out so yeah but financially
now you just you just put them in debt from the
moment they they started working and they're
on a map for the rest of their life yeah yeah
yeah We can't account for sort of life experience.
I don't think there's, I don't know, I think
there isn't a right way and there isn't a wrong
way. Well, there is a wrong way, obviously, but,
you know, in terms of sort of life experience,
because it's like me lad, he's at uni at the
moment. And he's got an opportunity to kind of
take a year out and go and play sort of rugby
in sort of Australia and New Zealand, but he's
not going. And it's like inside, I'm like, obviously
it's his choice. I can't make it, but I think
he's never going to get that opportunity again.
And it's nice and controlled and it'll be sort
of subsidized and it'll be arranged sort of through
the uni. And he was like, no, no, I'm fine. I've
got a girlfriend. I'm here. Do you know what
I mean? He's quite happy. And inside I'm like,
oh my God, I would have sort of killed for that
at that age. But it's not really for the... Not
that he's going to get much out of it work -wise
or anything, but the life experience of learning
on your own and being in the nuisance of surroundings
and having to, you know what I mean, you can't
rely on your parents as much as it kills me and
would scare the life out of me and I'd hate it
every day he's not here. On the same time, the
amount of sort of like a value. So I think, you
know, I think there is a bit of value and a bit
of distress, but not too much. Like I say, I'm
not saying to kick every sort of kid out as soon
as they're sort of 16, that's it, out the door.
I'm not fucking commuting that. Yeah, no, I agree
completely. What about career aspirations? Were
you thinking of the fire service when you were
still in school or was there something else in
your mind? No, not at all. Never even crossed
my mind. So my path was sort of media. So it's
in terms of behind the camera. So my dream job
at school would have been writing and producing
films and TV. That was 100 % probably really
from a young age is what I wanted to do. And
that's what I did at uni. So my degree isn't
anything to do with what I'm doing now. It's
a media and film degree. And that was my plan.
And then I moved up into the Midlands with my
ex -partner. We had a child. And then her family,
her dad was a firefighter. So we started to talk
a little bit about the job and things like that.
So I thought, I'll go for it as I'm up here.
So it wasn't really a... Not in a blasé way,
but because I spoke to a lot of people and they
said, oh, yeah, I tried three or four times to
get in, sometimes more. I thought, I'll go for
it. I won't get in. And then I'll just sort of
learn from it and then move on. And I don't know
if that helped because I was sort of super relaxed.
So expecting to kind of not get the job. I got
in first time, which is amazing. And then so
I've never looked back since then. But no, it
wasn't a thing at school, really. yeah it wasn't
really even sort of mentioned I was much more
you know I had this sort of dream because I like
to say I was obsessed with the obsessed I like
the world of sort of films and tv but I wasn't
sort of brave enough to be in front of the camera
or anything like that so but to be in that world
to be part of a team so that's the sort of crossover
I can sense with the fire service is obviously
it is a big team it's a big family And when I
start to think about it, maybe that's what I
was craving and that's what I wanted to be part
of was like a team and achieving sort of something.
So not directly, but there is a few sort of links.
So what was the kind of front door experience
for you as far as expectations from fitness levels
and if any, any mental health conversations?
Mental health wasn't mentioned at all. And I'd
even, I mean, I'm coming up to. This year, I'll
be 20 years in the fire service, and I'd probably
say the last 10 years, it's become normal. Even
in the job, it's not been talked about that much.
Fitness, again, it wasn't prescriptive. It's
2006, I joined. There obviously was the internet
and things like that, but it wasn't everything
now. You can sort yourself out online. You can
get training plans and things like that without
looking for them. so it wasn't it was talked
about but in general sort of sense can you pick
heavy stuff up and move and can can you run a
little bit but it was all related to the tests
themselves um so there wasn't much free support
there was a lot of dvds to be a like a yellow
sort of dvd it's famous in the uk but it was
like the recruitment sort of like test it was
probably 10 years before that it was made And
that was the target. So there wasn't anything
about ongoing and longevity and remaining injury
-free and things like that, which I'm sort of
super passionate about now. It was more about
sort of passing the test and getting, and then
you sort of, the job makes you fit. It was kind
of assumed. It was like an old -fashioned sort
of type of fitness. It wasn't very sort of technical
or sports science -y. But it's something, although,
as I was saying earlier about being overweight,
I was reasonably fit. So a picture of me, you'd
think. how does he run how does he sort of run
at all but I've been sort of always been sort
of fitter than I look so I never really sort
of struggled with that once I got in the job
I was like because you start with these like
big hairy ass sort of like sort of firemen excuse
me sorry um that were kind of sorry um that were
kind of again they weren't sort of ripped but
they were like i'd add sort of farmer strength
sort of daddy strength i called it you know what
i mean sort of and they and i was 23 when i joined
24 so i hadn't really had much sort of life experience
and things like that so i was then i really sort
of worked hard because i thought i just don't
want to embarrass them i don't want to look an
idiot in front of them so although i had good
sort of well say good average sort of like sort
of cv fitness i could do the job without any
issues that was when i started to kick because
it being part of that team and not wanting to
let anyone down And thinking of the worst case
scenarios in a job, I thought there's no way
I'm going to sort of look an idiot like in front
of them. So that's when I kicked on. But that
came from within. And so whether it would have
been more of an issue if you come in with a bit
of a lazy attitude, then you get more of a kick
up the ass and you get kind of shoved. Well,
I didn't really kind of need that because I was
just so quite nervous. a younger bloke so i was
really keen to not ever be told you're not working
hard enough or you're not doing enough so i'd
go the other extreme and i'd sort of work my
ass off wasn't perfect by any means obviously
made sort of a load of mistakes and things but
i did try what did the fitness test look like
the uh the one that get hired in the first place
well this is interesting so considering my job
now and what i preach now we fell in a bit of
an anonymity that's a word so that i started
in the september i think and there was a course
in the july but but before that there wasn't
any recruitment for a few years so there was
a bit of a gap and i don't know if this is the
reason why but there wasn't actually a fitness
test believe it or not so we had the jrts the
job related tests um and obviously you had the
like the fire ground test when you when you when
you do a timed little circuit with the fire ground
equipment but there was no bleep test there was
no sort of chest achievement test or anything
like that then But then about a year or so after
that, then they brought in the bleep test. So
we fell right in the middle. So whether that
worked out perfectly for me, because I've never
been a fan of the bleep test. But yeah, so which
is quite sort of scary to kind of look at it.
But there was no one who wouldn't have passed
a fitness test, if that makes sense. It didn't
mean the standards kind of dropped. But it's
kind of crazy when I speak to a lot of people
and they say, oh, yeah, the standards have dropped
now. And in the back of my head, I'm thinking,
I didn't even do a fitness test 20 years ago.
So at least there's a standard now. So what are
you hearing, though, about that? I mean, obviously,
the British Fire Service is a national service.
Unlike here, where you could have one town that
holds their people to a super high level and
then the neighboring town has no standard whatsoever.
Over the last 20 years, when there is a fitness
test in place, what has been the conversation
of that being lowered? And if that's the case,
why? Well, it's a massive conversation. So the
last sort of three or four years, I've spoke
to loads of academics and people in and out of
the job and all that. So the technical answer,
the standards haven't been dropped. It's a myth.
What's happened is... So back in the day, 30,
40, 50 years ago, again, there was no sort of
fitness test other than unofficial sort of log
runs and things like that. But it was based on
no, there was no sort of science behind it. I'm
not saying that they weren't sort of fitter.
So I don't want to get down that argument is,
you know, whether they were or whether they weren't,
but there was no sort of science behind it. The
first fitness test, the paper was, I think, 2017
-ish, no, 2014, 2015. I should have got the exact
date. Apologies if anyone is listening and they're
sort of screaming down. But the point is it was
only in the 2010s anyway. And that standard is
a national standard and it's worked out in your
VAT max, which is 42 .3. So although you say
like we're a national service, we are. However,
it's exactly the same as what you described.
So although you've got to reach that target,
how you reach that target or how you assess that
you're reaching that target can vary from county
to county. which is absolutely crazy. So we're
Staffordshire and we're on neighbouring services,
West Midlands, for example, and you can get into
the services in completely different ways, even
though you could sort of cross a road and be
in the opposite county. So there's a handful
of tests that mean that you can meet that, ranging
from like a breath -by -breath, sort of like
the gas analysis kind of test on a treadmill.
We don't have that in our services and not many...
services do but that's going to be sort of true
way to get it ranging up to sort of a treadmill
sort of walk -in tests and bleep tests and things
like that and it's all sort of worked out what
the what the equivalent is so but everyone male
female whether you're 18 or 64 or whatever you
have you have to reach that standard to get into
the job in the fire service so there's no firefighter
unless they started pre -tests i'll put that
but even then even if they started pre -test
the annual test which every service does in some
form or another you again you have to reach that
standard so there shouldn't be any firefighter
in the country who's not at that minimum standard
this is when it gets a bit sort of nerdy so apologies
if i'm boring you but no no jump in but that
minimum standard has been worked out by academics
and people in the service as well for fitness
advisors to watch managers station managers it
was a big sort of paper that that was made to
where this 42 .3 came from. And it was worked
out, whatever the phrase is, that the physiological
effect on a human, so again, male, female, age
irrelevant, you need a VO2 max to be safe on
the fire ground and reduce the chance of cardiac
arrest. So that's the minimum standard that you
need. It doesn't obviously sort of guarantee
your safety because if you're smoking, you're
drinking, you're overweight, et cetera. But if
you can hit that, that means you're at the minimum
that it reduces your standard, basically to kind
of not have a heart attack on the fire ground.
So that's the standard that everyone's at. So
when people say it's been sort of lowered for
females and things like that, it's not true at
all. All that's happened is it's been standardized,
yes, but that minimum standard is for everyone
and everyone has to hit that. If somebody knows
of an individual in a service who's... skip to
test or out of date or anything like that then
that's that's that's like a local issue but that
isn't a service decision to let more sort of
females in for example that's just an error in
in the working out and there are a lot of brigades
um i say a lot there's a few brigades i don't
think it's for under bus but sort of london for
fire brigade because they're so huge they're
playing a bit of catch -up so because they've
got thousands of thousands we've got 850 No,
sorry, about 550 operational firefighters in
our county, so we're quite small. And they've
got thousands and thousands. So the logistics
can sometimes cause an issue to make sure everyone's
in date, but they still have to get in at that
standard, if all that waffle makes sense. No,
it does. It does completely. So firstly, you
guys are held to an annual standard. That's something
that is, you use the word anomaly. Someone who
has a punitive fitness test in America would
be an anomaly. And you used the word minimum
standards. When we go to fire Academy in Florida,
as here, you usually put yourself through school.
Yeah. It's only up North of where they'll actually
take people really, you know, as civilians, a
lot of us, we have to go to school first and
then, and then try and get hired. But our certification
is called minimum standards. So it's so ironic
because we label, this is the shittest you should
ever be your entire life coming out of the account.
That's the worst. You should be minimum standards.
And yet there's no annual fitness test. So what
happens is you get these people kind of like,
you know, some of the blokes at the pub with
the beer bellies talking about how they used
to be so good at football when they were in school.
It's the same thing. You've got a 15 -year firefighter
who's now obese talking about how they were their
fittest in the fire academy because they weren't
held to a standard. Now, of course, there are
some contributing factors from mental health
to, you know, the impact of sleep deprivation
on our hormones and our ability to keep the weight
off. But ultimately, if you're held at a standard
from the front door from the beginning, you would
catch that slide. You'd nip it in the bud. Even
if someone was sliding a bit, you'd be able to
help them, get them back on their feet. And now
they're only one year behind, not 15, 20 years
behind. So the fact that you even have that test
is phenomenal. Is it punitive? If you don't meet
the VO2 max, what are the actions that are taken?
Yeah, so obviously at the beginning, if you don't
meet that standard, then you don't get in basically.
And most sort of services only recruit sort of
once a year. So it does mean that you're sort
of put back in a year and you've got to wait
until sort of next year. There's not many sort
of second chances. Some brigades do a follow
-up kind of test and things like that. But sort
of generally, if you don't meet the recruitment
standard, then you can't get in. In terms of
the annual test, again, it varies a little bit
service to service. official line is that if
you don't hit that standard then you're off the
run then some follow -up sort of actions can
take place but while while you're investigating
it and while you're supporting them back and
doing a follow -up test like you're off the run
there are the odd sort of services who have misread
the the advice and guidance and they have what
they i think it's because they called it a green
amber and gold green amber and red sort of standard
so if you're in the green then obviously you're
great then you just put back in the pot and you're
tested a year later. If you're below a certain
standard of the test in the red, then you're
off the run. You might go to occupational health
to make sure there's no underlying issues and
then you have a support plan. What's confusing
is this amber area. So some brigades, if someone
falls in this amber area, which I'd say, then
they remain on the run while they do like a secondary
test or while they do a bit of sort of like a
follow -up. That's kind of incorrect. If you're
not at the minimum standard, you're putting yourself
at risk. The service is putting that individual
at risk and the service is at risk because obviously
they've got a responsibility on the legal side.
So there is a bit of a grey area where some people
are being on the run when it's proven that they're
not at that standard while they investigate.
Now, the fear is obviously if they have a heart
attack the next day. a good lawyer would go,
well, why did you keep him on the run when you
sort of knew he didn't hit the standard just
because he's in this Amazon and the minimum standard
is 42 .3. So yes, you are essentially taken off
the run or you should be sort of taken off the
run and then the support plan or whatever it
is sort of follows up. What really angers me
is there is no downside to fitness standards.
Now, bearing in mind, let's say. they're in at
the front door you're expecting them so there's
no one even saying it's unfair the people that
have been on for x amount of time and then you
put this in of course there needs to be an on
-ramp of you know a year two years to allow people
to get back to where they need to be because
you just put that standard in but that aside
from a performance point of view if we're talking
about you know extreme events in the uk fire
service to say oh it's okay we don't need to
hold you a standard now you're asked to go up
to the 24th floor of the Grenfell Tower to get
a family out of an apartment building after you
force the door, that requires a high level of
athleticism. If you're asked to go down into
the tunnels after the 7 -7 bombing and start
pulling people out, that requires a high level
of athleticism. So this job isn't for everyone.
Full stop. Let's just make that clear. I've always
said I would be a horrible accountant. I'm terrible
with numbers. Everyone has their place. But on
the flip side, as you said, with cardiac arrest,
it's also about longevity and wellness and make
sure our people go home and not just go home,
but when they retire, have a long and healthy
retirement. So the opposition to fitness standards
really just turns my stomach because you can't
point to any element of a fitness standard and
say, oh, yeah, but that's not fair. It's fair
from a performance point of view, and it's fair
for taking care of your people in their longevity
point of view. Yeah, 100%. And that's just something
that the longer I've been in this role for just
under four years, I've got more confident in
being a bit sort of blunter and saying that kind
of thing to people. Like when people fail, which
in our brigade is a tiny amount, I've got to
say. But it's kind of what did you expect? Surely
there's a sense of responsibility that you need
to be sort of fitter than the average. person
across the road you don't have to be an athlete
by any means but you have to be sort of fitter
than the average bloke and the answer is always
yeah i know but then you think well how do you
get for fitter do you think you're going to wake
up one day or take a pill and it's just going
to happen sort of naturally or you're just sort
of grunt for through it you have to work at being
fit and and there isn't there isn't a way around
that there isn't a cheat a cheat code for for
that so the self the self -worth having the responsibility
and it sounds sort of cheesy of the badge and
things like that i don't mean for the love of
your county but it we should be proud to be sort
of for firefighters there's hundreds and thousands
of people who would die to be a firefighter and
and that's why we get so we had like 1800 people
apply for for for 15 jobs and things like that
so you've got to take responsibility and don't
think the job is done as soon as you get in exactly
as you said are the the standard that we're tested
to although it's greatest and like we're tested
annually i'm constantly saying that's the minimum
that means you literally don't have a heart attack
when you get off the truck that's all that all
that is doing that's not saying because even
like the run out the flight of the stairs and
i say to people There are a lot of people who
could run up the flight of stairs absolutely
fine, but you've got to forget, you might have
to perform a technical task while you're up there.
So if you're not, you might be blowing out your
arse saying, right, I've done it, I've climbed
the 10 flight of stairs. If you're, it's going
to, or the performance sort of level and your
cognitive behaviour when you're fatigued is so
important. We're going to have to save lives.
when you get to that point as well so it's not
about sort of just getting to the job it's about
sort of performing when you're at the job which
i think a lot of people forget all they think
is is like the distance or i'm strong enough
to pick up sort of that bit of kit yeah that's
great but can you pick up that bit of kit at
a funny angle when you're bent over a car and
you know obviously sort of manual handling sort
of goes out the window and things like that so
it's thinking about the job rather than just
thinking i've got to do the bare minimum Yeah,
absolutely. And you've got to train for the worst
case scenario. Where I worked, this last one,
protected theme parks. But my station, there
was a 30 -story hotel next to us. And to do what
we call a high -rise strip here, so take everything
that you'd need to ascend to get to the standpipe,
you've got a hose on your back, you've got two
spare cylinders, and you've got a tool, that's
100 pounds of gear. And I was 168 pounds. almost
you know double my body weight sorry excuse me
almost i thought it was terrible numbers almost
half my body weight more than half my body weight
there we go um jesus i am terrible um so now
you're climbing 30 stories and then like you
said then you get to the fire floor now it's
time to actually go to work so you know i'm a
huge believer in the the word tactical athlete
Do we do athletic stuff on a daily basis? Maybe
not. Many of us are pumping blood pressure cuffs
and doing very non -heroic shit on some of these
shifts. But when you get those calls, whether
it's zero to 100 and you're just fighting a single
story fire, whether you're ascending 30 floors
with 100 pounds of gear, yeah, that zero to 100,
you're asked to do something that arguably very,
very few people in the entire nation would be
capable of doing. So you do need to be held at
a high standard. yeah 100 % and and like on top
of that I always think of thinking of your oppo
as well because it's not always about can can
I sort of drag my mate out can I pick up this
bit of kit it's if I if I collapse am I in a
reasonable sort of body composition state that
my mate can pull me out so there's a bit of responsibility
for him because he can end up if you're really
overweight and you and you have a collapse you're
going to give him a heart attack or he's going
to get sort of trapped or run out of air because
he's going to, you know, sort of half sort of
kill himself trying to drag you out. And you
know that because that's part of the bond. No
matter what the books say and do this and do
that, you're going to sort of try your best.
So there's a responsibility for your team as
well and making sure that you're in a good enough
sort of shape that you could be sort of rescued,
which I know sounds a crazy way of looking at
it, but sometimes it's kind of changing the way
that people... view things it's not all about
just sort of running for the sake of it and even
you know it's going off off tangent a little
bit but a lot of people say that being sort of
tested to a vo2 max standard isn't relevant to
turn the job and you it's really hard to put
into words when you try and say a hundred percent
it is because everything every kind of movement
we do is related to vo2 max i saw a great sort
of podcast the other day with a bloke called
peter attia uh he's american yeah yeah and he's
a amazing bloke because he sort of breaks that
super super clever a lot clever than a lot of
people but he kind of breaks it down and he said
with you like your beauty max us having a conversation
now we're probably in a vo2 max of about sort
of six or something and when you when you get
up and walk up the stairs it might be 10 to 15.
so everything that we do is sort of staggered
up as we get older over the age of confucius
30 or 40 but it's it's relatively young it's
kind of drops by a certain percent every single
year so that means if we're training now to 42
.3 and i mean i'm 40 how old am i i'm 44 sort
of this year so i'm in that sort of bracket if
i don't train i'm at 42 .3 now if i did exactly
the same as what i'm doing now sort of next year
my vo2 max is going to drop sort of naturally
because of age so i need to address that and
work harder so that's why There is an argument
to say it is unfair on females and the older
you get because it's harder for them to maintain
certain VO2 max, which is correct. However, if
that's the minimum VO2 max you need to be safe
on the fire ground, there's no getting around
that. If you can't reach that, you might have
to work harder to get there, but that's what
you need to be safe on the fire ground. So if
you can't reach that, as blunt as it sounds,
then maybe you need to be off the run or you
need to work harder. There's no getting away.
there's no getting away from that sort of minimum
standard if that makes sense no it does actually
it's a really interesting way of looking at it
when you become a firefighter your lens shouldn't
be oh i'm a firefighter at 19 it should be i
need to make sure i'm a firefighter still at
49 what am i gonna do i mean i i still i'm not
wearing the uniform anymore but i still train
as though i am because you never know you know
you might come across a car crash you might have
to god forbid protect your family whatever it
is your physicality is important male female
whatever you know and to use ages or genders
as an excuse because you know as you said we're
we're aging well yeah we're in a we're in a profession
that ages so either a go sit behind a desk which
is not what i was dreaming of in the fire academy
or Yeah, understand that you're going to have
to put the work in. And realistically, what's
going to happen is you're going to smash the
VO2 level when you're 20. And yeah, when you're
45, it's going to take a little bit more work.
But if you never stop training back to those
fitness standards, if you're held to a high standard
and just every week you just keep doing the thing
that needs to be done, you won't have this sharp
drop off. And, you know, even towards the twilight
of your career, those will still be attainable
because we all know. Those men and women in the
fire service who are still smashing it in their
50s. So, you know, it just takes diligence, just
takes hard work. Yeah, 100 % right. And that's
what I'm always sort of saying to people. It's
not about sort of training like an athlete. It's
just about sort of keeping sort of ticking over
and being consistent with it and kind of pushing
yourself as much as you can. But it's just about
sort of doing it sort of day in, day out for
10 to 20, 30 years. I mean, we've got a few firefighters
in their early 60s. And they're amazing. And
they pass the fitness test fine. And it's all
that, you know, I'm not saying it's, you know,
whether that's sort of right or wrong is, is,
is, is another issue, but like there isn't any
issues with them and they're, and they're amazing.
So when you get to someone in their early 30s,
he's moaning about the fitness test. I'm like,
if you cannot moan when there's a 64 year old,
he's passing the test with flying colors. You
can't moan at 31. Do you know what I mean? So
there isn't any excuse. And that's all it is,
is, is, is sort of consistency. It sounds an
obvious thing to say, but the only people who
moan about the test and pretend it's for a moral
sort of reason about the relevance of the test
or this and that are the people who struggle
with it. And you think, well, you don't ever
get a fit person moaning about the tests. And
I always think, well, that's as obvious as it
sounds. Well, what does that mean? You know what
I mean? You're using it as an excuse because
you can't be bothered to put in the work. I'm
not saying for everyone, obviously. There might
be injuries. There might be underlying issues.
And age can catch up with people, no matter what
they do. But the harshness about it. that is
unlucky and i'll do for sorry for you and you
and you could work your ass off in a rehab or
whatever but if you can't reach that standard
it doesn't mean we should lower the standard
for you because that's only putting you at risk
putting you at more risk absolutely something
popped into my head and it's just it's a recent
conversation but i'm watching welcome rexum i'm
watching on hulu which is uh an app here where
you just get bombarded with adverse and it's
brutal and ironically you're watching you know
this show about this community and these fit
athletes and then you keep going to these drug
commercials because over here that's what you
get bombarded with right and so many of them
are those glp ones you know the the weight loss
pills and i've just kind of hit me that you have
people that are deconditioned that also are carrying
more body weight and now these pills work so
now they're slim And I think, you know, in the
examples, especially where gastric bypass was
used, like extreme obesity, I think these pills
have a place. I really do. But the problem is
if you've got your average person who's a little
heavy, they start taking these and now they want
to be a cop or a firefighter. They haven't put
any of the work in. You know, I mean, again,
assuming that they haven't put any of the work
in, you can lose a lot of weight just from the
medication itself. So now they go into these
tests, they don't have the physical resilience
and they don't have the mental resilience of
the suffering that is, you know, working out
is hard, you know, and some of these workouts
you're throwing up or, you know, whatever, whatever,
you know, pain cave you put yourself in periodically.
That's the whole point. It's supposed to be hard
to prepare yourself for the crucible of a fire
academy, a police academy, et cetera. So it'll
be interesting to see as this whole GLP -1 revolution
happens. how many seemingly fit looking people
show up that maybe then can't actually do the
physical test because they haven't put the actual
work in. Yeah, 100%. And I think that that's
in every sort of walk of life as well. Because
I think it's super scary that... I think it's
the education behind it because, as you say,
they've definitely got a place because they were
invented for a reason. We're people with diabetes,
morbidly obese sort of people, and it's going
to save the NHS over here obviously more money
if we sort that out sooner rather than later
in life. However, when you get sort of 20 -year
-olds taking it, when you think all they have
to do is do a bit of exercise or eat better,
because when I do the annual test, for example,
i don't like people being too too kind of lean
and skinny either so i say to people when i give
advice on not that i'm a fan of bmi it's a load
of rubbish but in terms of sort of body fat percentage
I'd prefer someone who's a little bit higher,
not sort of dangerously high, but with something
a bit about them that they can carry their sort
of body weight around and they're half sort of
decent in the gym or in whatever sort of fitness
they like. But working on the worst case scenario
again, if they're on their hands and knees and
like a building is collapsing on them, I'd want
somebody with a bit of something about them rather
than someone who's like a 2 % sort of body. a
body fat percentage who you know any sort of
strong a breeze and they're going to snap but
they might be able to sort of run a marathon
which is great but that's not going to help you
in the job so there's a prep not only the fitness
side that they won't have but it's the it's the
i don't know even what the word is but the durability
of someone because it's not a pretty job there
is a lot of mauling and when you're sort of ridden
out after a fire and you're pulling bits down
and you're crawling in these like sort of weird
places and covered in muck and things like that
being sort of mega skinny is not going to help
you um so yeah i do think there's going to be
a knock -on i think there's going to be a knock
-on in society i hate it when you see sort of
teenagers and that ironic because i think what
a lot of people forget as well all it does is
make you not hungry so all it's doing is not
making you eat it doesn't so as soon as you come
off it it doesn't mean as soon as you come off
it that i'm going to eat sort of five sort of
fruit and veg a day and i'm going to i'm going
to be really healthy and i know about sort of
healthy fats and all that it doesn't give you
it doesn't implant a chip in your brain. So all
you're going to do is go back to kind of what
you were, or you're going to stay on for longer,
which is exactly as you say, it's not a long
-term solution. So I think it's super, super
dangerous. And we'll see what happens. I hope
it gets sort of picked up though, because we
do in our service like a health check. So it's
not only the test and we do their blood pressure
and body sort of metrics and things like that.
So I'm hoping that it would be obvious in which
case, you know, in our brigade, we wouldn't have
any. If they're at risk or going to put someone
else at risk, then we would sort of take them
off the run. I just hope that other brigades
do a little bit more and other brigades do even
less. So there will be a few that sort of slip
through the net, but we'll never know. But I
hope it gets sort of picked up. Like so many
pills, I was just talking to a psychiatrist the
other day about the use of antidepressants and
some of the other psychiatric drugs. And he had
a great analogy. He said, you know, it's that
they're used just to stabilize. And I think this
is the case for a lot of drugs, whether you're
on a drug for hypertension, diabetes, whatever
it is, unless it's not like type 1, where seemingly
there don't seem to be any cures for that. But
let's say you're a borderline type 2 diabetic.
You could take something to get your sugar down,
but the goal is to change your exercise habits,
change your diet to where you're not diabetic
anymore. The same with hypertension. And even
with these psych meds, if you are... suicidal
and yeah they can stabilize you but then you
have to find the treatments that work to stop
you you know to unravel your mental health and
get you back to where you're healthy again and
you don't need those meds and you come off those
meds i see an application with these glp ones
you know you've got someone who is heavier if
it is given an exit strategy okay we're going
to use this for x amount of months we're going
to get you down to this body weight we're going
to ramp you know start um uh, very deliberately
increasing your exercise. We're not going to
throw you into a, you know, Murph on your first
day, but we've got to create a habit of, of better
a eating of better gym habits. And let's get
you eating the foods that are nutritional, even
though your portions are smaller. So as you come
off and your appetite goes up, you're, you're
already enjoying the right food. I think that's
fine. But what worries me in America, that that's
not how doctors do it. Most of the doctors like,
Oh, you've got high blood pressure. You're going
to be on this rest of your life. you're depressed,
you're going to be on this the rest of your life.
And there is no, let's use this just as a bridge
to get you to holistically not need it anymore.
Yeah, and I think sort of generally there's a
rush to get them on the tablets in the first
place as well. So why not try some of the holistic
things first? It just seems, and I know that,
you know, all I can say is in England and the
NHS, I know everyone is kind of under... pressure
you have sort of 10 minutes slots they're always
just sort of running behind and things like that
so i can see why they think right just sort of
take this sort of tablet next you know i mean
and that gives sort of gps a bad name i don't
mean that at all but there's a lot of pressure
from their side it just seems the amount of people
who are on sort of drugs and i haven't tried
anything else and i think but that again whether
that's a national problem it sounds like it's
an international problem of education for gps
where they should get strength and conditioning
sort of coaches and nutritionists and things
like that to educate the gps to say there are
other things you can try so you use an example
a couple of years ago i saw a documentary i think
it was about i don't know if it's blood pressure
or diabetes but they got a selection of um about
sort of 10 people range of ages and some were
really obese and some of all different sort of
shapes sizes and sexes And they did a test of
putting them on a dead, as you said, a dead sort
of basic like an exercise and like nutrition
plan. And it wasn't like eating like a monk and
hemp smoothies and salad sandwiches. It was just
like a sensible, but they even sort of had a
takeaway night and things like that. So it was
like an achievable one. And all of them, like
I said, I can't remember if it was sort of blood
pressure or diabetes, but all of them, all their
sort of numbers sort of dropped right into the
safe zone. and all they did that was for six
or 12 weeks you think that is absolutely incredible
the amount of money that that would have saved
the nhs the amount it would have helped them
because now they've exactly as you said they've
got a toolkit now to kind of live for the rest
of their lives and they know how to fix the problem
rather than a tablet which sort of technically
yes it's going to put a plaster over the issue
but it's still going on in the background you
know it's the same as like sort of um of like
a steroid injection i'm not a big fan of them
sort of generally because all it's doing is it's
masking the pain it's not sort of solving the
issue so then you go back and have another one
and then another one but then once you've had
your maximum amount then you're screwed and it's
the same with this so I do I don't want to give
sort of GPs in the NHS a bad name but I do think
that people like us are looked not looked down
upon but we're not seen because we're not all
sort of doctors we haven't got sort of degrees
and that and and PhDs but I think we could educate
like sort of GPs which sounds really sort of
patronizing but how how effective a strength
and conditioning program could be for Aunty Dara,
who's 80 years old. We could make her life a
lot better where they wouldn't really sort of
send them to us or we wouldn't get involved first.
And I think we've got the whole sort of world
of strength and conditioning can offer a lot
more in society than it is at the moment. 100%.
I mean, I had... A chiropractor on a while ago
from the UK was a firefighter as well. And he
was talking about strength and conditioning in,
in the elderly. And you think about it, you know,
a nursing home should have a gym and that sounds
bizarre, but I mean, seriously, like, yes, there
are going to be people that are coming in that
are already bedridden and, you know, maybe some,
you know, in chair or something, but. Yeah, if
you want to stop the fall risk, there's a lady
I just, I'm literally about to put her episode
out today. She does vestibular training where
you get on this, it literally looks like you're
standing on a record player and you're turning
and it's resetting the vestibular system in your
ear and vertigo and some of those things start
to improve. And she's actually in talks with
a nursing home company at the moment to put those
in because, you know, you want to stop hip fractures
and some of these other things. strength train
you want to stop osteoporosis strength train
we know that calcium alone doesn't work so yes
it needs to be this conversation and what blows
me away in the uk having grown up in you know
i was born in the 70s so i would argue it was
the nhs was still doing really well back then
and it was how it was supposed to be if you have
a tax -based system your goal is to make the
the people as healthy as possible. So you save
that tax money for childbirths and traffic accidents
and, God forbid, cancers and some things that
we all chip in and help fellow British people.
But if you allow your nation to become fatter
and sicker, you're destroying, I would argue,
the best healthcare system on the planet because
you're not actually understanding that the way
it works is proactively making sure that everyone
else is as healthy as possible. Yeah, I mean,
I'd like to start by, because my mum and dad,
as I say, they've both gone and the NHS were
amazing with them and they had sort of illnesses.
So this isn't a blanket sort of, I don't want
to start sort of bashing the NHS. However, yeah,
I think it kind of needs sort of fresh eyes if
I'm, and again, I'm not in the government at
all. So this is a really sort of like an idiotic
kind of look of you. but it just needs sort of
input from other people where at the moment it's
that because they're they're so short of money
that seems to be the a lot of the propriety and
they're doing the best they can with what they've
got where i think if you add people a lot sort
of cleverer than me but like sort of leads and
strength and conditioning and leads in nutrition
who are sort of doctors in their field and been
there and done it even like someone like a sports
coach who was really successful and get all this
input from from people and say yeah we could
have a look at that we could have a look i mean
it's again reducing it down to a small example
we and back to the fire service we have a big
issue of slips trips and falls being like a really
high sort of cause of sickness at work and i
went through the stats the other day and we have
a big percentage of our accidents are sort of
ankle based in injuries and relating it to two
old people what The thing that would sort of
stop that is reaction time. So it's not only
the exercises in the gym, but the quicker that
you can react and put your foot out to support
yourself, it's going to sort of save your knees.
It's going to save your ankles. So I'm trying
to build sort of something now where whether
people take it up and whatnot, it's not sort
of squatting and benching and things like that.
So it's not as sexy as that. So I'm not sure
how many people are doing it, but there is a
science behind to kind of reduce that. ramping
that up for the elderly for example that's why
they get a lot of shoulder injuries and hip injuries
it's because when they do sort of take a fall
they haven't got the reactions to put their hands
out and things like that so even something as
basic as that there is sort of something that
that can be done and there's a lot of amazing
sort of physios who probably sort of do try but
it should be a campaign it's not always about
the big sort of medical conditions i think we
can make a massive dent in a lot of issues that
are affected when we elderly i read a book the
other day and he wanted to do a decathlon at
100 now he didn't mean an actual decathlon but
he wrote down sort of 10 things he wanted to
do when he's 100 years old one of them was getting
up and down off the toilet one of them was sort
of bending down get getting up on on his kind
of knees and getting back up again and 10 sort
of really sort of basic things like that so all
his training from like sort of the age of 35
and 40 onwards was geared to to kind of do that
obviously when he was when he's younger he's
doing it to the extreme so getting up and down
off the off the toilet he's he's doing loads
of heavy sort of like a squats for example but
as he gets older so that's going to get tapered
down so he's doing the same sort of movement
so we can get up and down off the toilet but
it might just be up and down off of a chair or
something like that and i thought that was a
great way to look at it that's that's the target
as you say It's not to be an athlete really for
the rest of your life. It's to make sure that
you function in life, that you can play with
your grandkids, that you can sort of not have
a heart attack at the age of 50. They should
be the long -term goals. Frustratingly, though,
you only realise that when you're in your 40s
and 50s and 60s, when you think, oh, crap, I
wish I started to do that. I always compare it
to yoga because I've only... done it a couple
of times but I wish I did that as a teenager
because now I'd be in a much better condition
but when you're a teenager that's the most sort
of boring thing in the world and nobody sort
of wants to do that so there is a problem with
what is deemed as normal and cool and things
like that and I don't know how you get over that
but the earlier you start to think of I want
to be a functional sort of 80 year old I think
It could save in terms of the job -wise. We'll
be sort of working longer, which we are anyway,
but in a better condition. And like I say, sort
of doing things as a pensioner should be the
goal because that's the most important thing
really. Absolutely. I'm going to put a bowl of
chalk and wrist wraps in my toilet. People are
like, what the hell? I'm going to PR today. All
right. Well, that being said, let's go back to
your journey within the fire service itself.
where did you find yourself assigned once you
came out of the academy and then what kind of
environment was that was it urban suburban rural
etc so it was uh my first station was burton
um which is near where i live now um and it was
perfect so it's a probably a bit of all of that
really it was mainly i'd probably say it's mainly
urban um sorry yeah it's kind of like a bit of
both so there's lots of farmland um but there
it did have some quite sort of dense sort of
towns and cities as well. So it wasn't a massive
area, but there was a good sort of mix. So as
a probationary, it was kind of perfect. We had
such a range of jobs. The environment, I think,
was the best it ever was. And again, you sound
like an old fellow saying it's not what they're
used to, but it was. So I was probably after
the proper old school sort of firefighters when
they're playing sort of volleyball all the time
and things like that and going out and having
sort of bars on stations and things like that.
Although the station I was at had a bar, although
it was kind of obviously sort of shut down, but
there was still sort of pictures on the wall
when there was still a couple of the old guys
who would sort of tell sort of stories. So although
I never sort of lived that side of it, I was
on the end of it, which was amazing. And the
camaraderie and the characters over the years,
it's a bit more sort of clinical. I think it
goes down to even the stations that are being
replaced. They're a bit more sort of hospital
-like and they're a bit more standard sort of
new builds where the old ones had, you know,
even like down to the poles and it was all a
bit more sort of rustic, I suppose. It must have
been a nightmare as an estate sort of manager,
but as a firefighter, it was great because all
the buildings had this sort of like kind of character.
So the area was great. The upbringing in the
fire service was amazing. Then I moved to...
station called tamworth at tamworth um which
was a bit sort of different a bit more of a modern
station by the time i went there um but that
was like a boat station so that was quite fun
so although at burton i had i had the alp which
is like the aerial sort of ladder platform which
was amazing which is my favorite sort of special
um then we went on to to rope and water So that
means doing, which I'm not a massive, the older
I got, I hated the water, if I'm honest. And
that's one of the reasons why I left there, because
sort of swimming in the rapids in the middle
of Wales on training days and things like that
in dry suits. It wasn't my favourite time in
the middle of winter and things like that. But
at least it made it a bit more sort of varied.
It wasn't just house fires and car fires. We
used to go to these sort of funny jobs. So then
my last few years operational went back to Burton.
um so by that time the old Burton station had
been sort of knocked down so it was it was like
sort of full circle um and again it was it was
good going back there but it's I don't know how
to put it because it makes it sound like a negative
thing I'm not even saying it's a negative thing
but the atmosphere is different and there's a
lot it seemed like there was a lot of older guys
you've got old kind of like together when now
it just seems to be loads of young people and
and because crewing has been sort of cut as well
like the numbers aren't as big there's a lot
more sort of young people a lot more sort of
newer people and it's it the atmosphere is different
i suppose i don't want to say it's it's worse
but but like when i started there was crews of
between sort of 12 and 16 um and now you're riding
a truck with four people sort of sometimes so
like the atmosphere is different in a big old
sort of station it does make a difference only
having sort of four people there and everyone
sort of bomb bursts it's it's a bit of an odd
And that was one of the reasons why I went for
this job now was because it wasn't the same,
like essentially. And yeah. That sounds like
a moan, but I didn't mean that. No, no, no. I
mean, it is an observation. I mean, my favorite
crew was 20 years ago now, you know, so yeah,
I can totally relate. When you reflect back before
we go to the transition into the strength conditioning
side. through the career that you had operationally
what was some of the the career calls it can
be big events or they could simply be moments
of kindness and compassion uh well there's quite
a few to be fair i think there was i mean i started
there was a few sort of wow sort of moments where
and again you don't really realize it at the
time but i remember once so one of the main roads
through the burton area is called the a38 um
it's quite a busy sort of like a fast road and
I wasn't a probationer, so I was out of that,
but I was still probably about five or six years
in. And there was a car that flipped over on
the other side of the road, sort of upside down,
and crashed into this poor other car that was
kind of minding its own business, but sort of
basically hit it head first. And there was probably
seven or eight, well, there was more than that
casualties, probably about 10 sort of casualties,
and six or seven of them were dead as we arrived,
basically. And that was probably, even though
I was in... five or six years, that's probably
the first big job I had. So it was those and
it probably only took like a second where you
pull up that you don't know where to start. And
frustratingly, there was an off -duty paramedic.
um because obviously over here it's a bit sort
of different we're not we we're trained as trauma
care but we haven't got the qualifications that
you guys have over there because is it every
station you're a paramedic firefighter or is
that only yeah most apart from the northeast
tends to still have them separate but most of
the country you're going to be firefighter emt
or firefighter paramedic which is that the higher
level of those two right yeah so so we're not
like that at all we've got a basic level of trauma
care but our basic trauma care is to hold them
together and patch them up until the ambulance
come, really. So we were the first pump there
with an off -duty paramedic. And it was like,
well, where do you start? We had sort of five
people on the truck. But it was like, I consciously
remember sort of glancing out and seeing a few
sort of bodies and things. And I was, in my head,
it was like, fuck. But it was like sort of two
seconds. Then, right, it's game time. And then
you just sort of get into it. So there are ones
like that sort of to stick out. There's other
bad ones where you're, you know, in like a car
accident, for example, and you're holding someone's
sort of neck still while they're getting sort
of cut out and things like that. And you're talking
to them and making conversations to take them.
And then you find out sort of later that they
died and things like that. So there were, there
are a handful that was stuck in my head. However,
I would, and I don't think this is a, I don't
know if this is a good or bad reflection of my
personality, but I was quite good at compartmentalizing
it. I'd never really. I kind of have moved on
pretty quick, and that sounds really harsh, but
it's only now when I'm kind of out of that bit
of a job. We watch these sort of ambulance programs
and rescue programs, and then I say to my wife,
oh, yeah, I've been to a job like that. I've
been to a job when someone was decapitated and
things like that. But I haven't thought about
that for 15 years, but it's just when I see it,
and Mrs. is like, what, really? And you're like,
yeah. It's not come back to me. So whether I'll
have a breakdown in 20 years' time, I don't know.
But I tend to cope quite well with it. But on
the flip side of it, there's some amazing jobs.
And again, this doesn't sound sort of great to
the public of anyone who's outside the job, but
the amount of laugh that you have on a job, even
if it's a relatively bad one, which kind of sounds
horrific and sort of distasteful, not on sort
of fatalities and things like that, but the amount
of banter that was sort of knocking around. especially
if you put up to a job that's on a neighbouring,
with a neighbouring sort of like a station. So
it's not only your crew, there's other people
there that you might not have seen for a few
weeks or months or even sort of years. And you
think, oh, Mark, how are you doing? And you sort
of catch up. That kind of, I don't like the word,
it's a bit kind of cheesy, but like the brotherhood,
it is a real thing and it doesn't ever go away.
And that, I don't think you can find that anywhere
else. I think it is only in the tactical sort
of sectors. Now maybe sort of, a bias but like
the police and the military and the fire I think
that's where it's sort of really unique and the
relationship between those three as well not
so much the military obviously we didn't have
any contact really with the military but there's
obviously a crossover with the police and there's
a bit of Mickey taking sort of both ways with
that in like a light hired way and that I think
that's something that I won't ever sort of take
for granted and I don't think and that's the
hardest thing I think that i'm finding hard to
replicate in now because essentially what i do
is an office job or a gym based job so i'm not
in i'm not on sort of stations in in a watch
environment every day and things like that so
that's the thing i miss the most and that's the
thing that i'll always have with me really what's
interesting is i never struggled when it came
to the mental health side don't get me wrong
i had lows there's no question i went through
my divorce and single dad working you know being
forced to work extra shifts That was brutal.
And so I've always asked the question, well,
why not? I am by no means any more special than
anyone else who's towed the line in a uniform.
So what is that thing? Something happened along
the way that allowed me to be slightly different
than someone else. And through all these conversations,
a common denominator seems to be that even if
people had... traumatic experiences when they
were younger. And most of us did, which is what
led us to uniform in the first place. If those
were just pushed down and left unaddressed, it
becomes a fracture to your foundation. I think,
you know, more often than not, that's actually
the origin story to a lot of people struggling
in the military and first responders when they
do, you know, whether it's a psychedelic journey
or just simply a therapy session. But what I
saw is growing up in a farm in England. with
all the horrible shit that happened including
almost dying in a house fire myself at four years
old there were so many elements that we know
are healing now i grew up on a farm we had you
know real food grew up around animals you know
horses and dogs and things that we know heal
now i was uncomfortable i got dirty i mean we
had a giant kitchen table that we'd make fun
of each other, which is just like the firehouse.
So there was all those things that allow me to
offload. That's the only difference between me
and so many of my friends that have been there
with the pistol and the bottle of whiskey. When
you look back now, are there any elements of
your upbringing that you think allowed you to
process the horrible shit that we see when some
of our men and women struggle with that? That's
a good question. I don't know I suppose I suppose
again it sounds a bit sort of backwards but the
freedom although I never sort of needed it I
mean mum especially was sort of super sort of
trusting and I remember you know this isn't a
great thing to say in public but when I was about
I'll say I was 60 sorry I was 17 and a week away
from my 18th birthday that might be a little
while but my mum sort of worked at a school so
she sort of photocopied me birth certificate
and changed the year so I'd be a year older so
I could get into pubs and things like that there's
not many mums which is sort of a super cool slash
legal thing to do but my mum was kind of like
that but because of that I never really rebelled
I was never I was quite a good kid you know I
sort of towed the line and things like that because
I Because I didn't have all the restrictions
kind of put on me. I had that freedom. I never
felt the need to kind of rebel. And having that
kind of upbringing, but on the flip side of it,
if I needed to speak, I would. And we were really
honest with each other, sometimes sort of painfully
honest and things like that. So that was, I suppose,
is the nearest thing in that we had a quite small,
a big family, but there was only a small amount
of us who kind of saw each other, really. And
whether I'll, this is getting a bit sort of deep
now, but like I watch now sort of Christmas films
and things and you see like big families of 20
people all around having banter. And I kind of
envied that all my life, really, because we got
quite a small family. So I love that environment.
The amount of times I was sat around a table
and I wasn't even in the conversation, but you're
glancing around at these sort of 10 blokes and
laughing and joking and taking the mick out of
each other. That was like my happy place. and
i think that's if you're comfortable in people's
sort of company it's not always talking about
the event that helps i think it's just being
in a relaxing where you can take your mind off
it a little bit and you can just talk about absolute
sort of rubbish remember it's sort of football
or whatever it doesn't always mean because i
think a lot of people they misunderstand when
they say you get a bit of counselling on sort
of stations sort of with your watch with your
crew it's not it doesn't mean that you're analysing
the job that you've been on it just means that
half an hour of having a brew and talking about
absolute crap but that kind of it kind of puts
you in a happy place and then you're ready to
go again it doesn't mean that you analyse the
job and go the ins and outs I should have done
this I'm glad I did this so I wouldn't initiate
it's kind of like the opposite as well and I
think that kind of family environment that kind
of group sort of team environment if you like
is is what i enjoy and that's where i feel the
most like at ease so that's probably the closest
sort of link from like me from like me upbringing
up to the job is it that same element that was
there in your early station that you missed when
you went back and it was a new station and a
smaller crew I think so, yeah. And that's what
I was always sort of craving for that again,
but it never quite reached. So I started on an
amazing watch with loads of super clever people
in terms of the job and so operationally, but
super, super funny and loud and things like that.
And then there was another crew like once, because
obviously sort of people retire and things. And
then there was another one exactly the same.
They were a bit more sort of my age. And that
was more of like we had a proper laugh. Everyone
was on the same page. And I'd probably say, it
sounds horrible, so apologies if anyone has worked
with me over the years, but probably so, I'm
20 years now. I'd probably say from eight or
nine years onwards, that was when it changed,
when sort of watches started to bomb burst and
people were leaving, retiring or move sort of
stations or whatever. I never found that again.
And that's when the, like I say, when I say the
shine's coming off the job, I don't like to ever
sort of moan about the job. But for me, it kind
of lost its, all the best bits weren't as good
as they were if that makes sense um and a lot
of the changes a lot of it mainly down to the
crewing and the changes in the in our day -to
-day sort of work role it wasn't the same so
again i'm not saying it's good or bad it just
it it lost its shine for fun for me and that's
when i started to get a bit of itchy feet really
so you reflect back and you look at what worked
and not talking about mental health at all obviously
was a bad part of 20 years ago but I would argue
that working out as a crew, training as a crew,
shopping as a crew. And then all that banter
where political correctness really wasn't a thing
back then, you know, it was very healing. And
now you look at, you know, that conversation
that everyone's offended about everything in
certain areas, which I think is very dangerous.
I like the South Park mentality. You just make
fun of everyone. So no one gets offended. But
then, you know, the devices, the individual dorms,
which are such a good idea for sleep. You have
to then make sure that you stay in the communal
areas as much as possible so you don't lose that
camaraderie. And then you said the gallows humor,
the dark humor, that has to be part of what we
do. And I think that, you know, if you saw, we
were talking about young people revisiting early.
If we were able to refine that element in the
modern fire service, I think the need for peer
support and some of these other things would
go down because that is the ultimate peer support.
The kitchen table I had as a young farm boy.
And the firehouse table of Station One in Anaheim
back in 2006, 2007, you know, that was our therapy,
just like you said. That and the shopping and
the sports and the training and the loading hose
at the end, that was all micro therapy sessions.
Yeah, and I'd probably say, and speaking for
myself, I was probably the best at my job at
that point as well, in terms of I was at optimum
sort of keenness, if that's a word. I was sort
of... switched on we were all sort of helping
each other I was you know I wanted to be a sponge
and learn everything as soon as that sort of
side of it started to to kind of dropped I kind
of I was never lazy but you know I just kind
of stopped sort of striving to learn that that
extra bit I stopped sort of striving to get better
and better and better and I felt like I could
do the job sort of comfortably I'd seen and done
sort of most things I felt sort of confident
I was never sort of out of you know, out of touch
with what I can do, but I lost that sort of drive.
And some people don't sort of reach that point
and they have a 34 -year career and they're absolutely
sort of smashing it and good luck to them. But
for me, I felt like that was part of the job
for me, was that side of it. It wasn't sort of
just putting out the fires. It was all that.
So when that started to erode a little bit, it
affected like my whole sort of outlook on the
job. And again, that's on me. again i'm not saying
it's a good or a bad thing um and if you know
if anyone who has ever sort of worked me saying
oh that that's why you were crap but i was but
it was uh it you know i lost that kind of i don't
use the word drive because i was never like i
say it makes me sound like an idiot but i wasn't
i wasn't ever late i didn't ever sort of struggle
but i was never the same that those first sort
of eight or nine years it it wasn't the same
essentially Well, I think it goes also to what
we're seeing now where, and I'm not saying this
is the case in any of your stations at all, but
to use an extreme example, where there is toxic
culture. And I've experienced this, especially
the last place I worked. When I was in Anaheim,
when I was in, you know, one of my favorite departments,
I couldn't wait to get to work because I knew
that whatever we saw, whatever horrible shit,
whatever, you know. hoarder home with with disgusting
conditions and the daughters now inherited the
home and the mother's rotting in a bed in the
middle of the room whatever nasty stuff you had
to respond to you knew that there was going to
equally and oppositely be this camaraderie this
this banter all that stuff but then you go to
those same calls and then you go back to the
station you're almost like don't want to go back
because you got to deal with this you know a
hole in your station or whatever it is now you
don't have that positive outlet so there is you
know it's such an important conversation that's
starting to gain traction now is you know if
you if you don't have a good culture in your
fire department that is so dangerous as far as
the mental health of your people and then like
you said then the desire to even be a fired up
firefighter because people probably just want
to get the hell out of there as soon as their
shift's done yeah that's it's interesting actually
yeah because i never really thought of it that
way but i think i had a similar thing it wasn't
necessarily a bad culture but the job was changing
a lot so i joined at a time where there was so
many sort of changes and not only sort of cuts
to numbers but in terms of what we had to do
sort of day to day it was a lot more sort of
tracks and scheduled and you had sort of minimum
targets of fitting smoke alarms and school visits
and things like that where it got a lot more
sort of regimented they basically sort of didn't
want you to have much sort of free time it all
had to be kind of filled sort of doing community
work And that was roughly at the same time. So
like I say, it wasn't the toxic culture because
I think generally we're not too bad in staff.
Obviously, there's the odd individual. But I
think because the job was changing, it wasn't
the job that I joined. So God knows what the
people who joined sort of 10, 15 years before
me, it was even worse because that was like the
prime days then when all you did was do sports
and train and things like that. So, yes, I think
it's all tied into one. I don't ever think there's
one sort of reason. I don't ever think there's
a... right or wrong but i do think as culture
changes as as the job changes you kind of have
sort of two choices so i reached so when i got
to 17 years ish um i was sat around once and
we were sort of moaning about something really
tiny and i can't remember sort of what it was
but i had like an out -of -body experience and
i thought i've got a choice now i've got sort
of however many sort of years left i've got 17
left now if i stay till sort of 60. But I got
a choice of turning into a grumpy old firefighter
who moans about when the toilet roll changes
and things like that. Or I could try something
new. So I thought, if I had five years left or
something, I think I would have just stayed a
grumpy firefighter and just sort of seen it out.
And I think you've got that sort of... And I
don't think that's especially... specific to
the fire service well I imagine that's every
kind of walk of life of a job and you got a you
got a choice of sucking it up and just sort of
seeing your days out or making a difference and
I didn't want to be a moany person because I
felt it in the probationers that they would come
in and I was always as good as I could be with
probationers and as positive as I could be and
things like that where some older guys would
be sort of my I wouldn't sort of trust doing
the job sort of crap and things like that and
I hated that you shouldn't be saying that to
a probationer because you've got to kind of make
them feel as welcome as possible. I don't think
that helps anyone. If you're telling them how
bad the job is, I don't think that's a good way
to go. So I was never sort of like that. But
little things like that, I'd clock and say, this
ain't right. And so that's when you think, you
know, I've got a choice to make here. So what
was it that you chose? What were the options
that you had to get out of the station full time?
Well, it came out of the blue, really. So for
a few years before I came off watch, I was a
PT in terms I did like the annual sort of fitness
testing for the service. So there's me and a
group of others and we just do the testing and
then we sort of send the paperwork off to the
fitness advisor and she'll sort of log it all
and do all the research and things like that.
She sort of left the service. And then so the
service advertised for a six month sort of temporary
while they find someone else does anyone want
to do doing the job for six months so i'm denied
for ages and i thought well a bit like becoming
a firefighter i'll give it a go i'll apply for
it i probably won't get it and then we'll see
what happens so i went for it and i got i got
it so i thought i'll do it for six months which
was scary because going from two to four um because
whether we talk about the shifts because i know
you're sort of super passionate about the about
the shifts a little bit um so we we did a our
standard whole time is two days and two nights
and four days off So going from that all my life
and all like my kid's life in terms of school
runs and all that, everything was built around
that to go into a nine to five. That was the
scariest thing in a weird way because it meant
a massive sort of like a change in my life and
the way that we do things around the house. So
I thought I'd give it a go. And pretty much I'd
say from day one, it was like. it was like a
light bulb went off my head and i felt like a
section of my brain that had been asleep for
so long i was i was super and i because that's
what i'm going back about being sort of of keen
in my early years so i love being i love the
job when i first got i wanted to learn everything
i was up really really late and blah blah blah
and i didn't consciously know that that went
but then when i started this that sort of awoken
again and then i realized god i was going through
the motions a bit on the last sort of like a
couple of years because i haven't sort of felt
like this for years so The six months turned
into then it got extended for three months, then
another six months, and it just went on and on
until it was advertised permanently. I was temporary
probably for three years in short contracts that
were nonstop, if you like, but technically it
was a short, short term, short term, short term.
It's only been the middle of last year that I
was actually made permanent. Did you have any
observations once you came off shift of your
own health when you were in your own bed every
night? A hundred percent. And again, I wasn't
conscious of it until I came out of that environment,
but I slept a lot better. I wasn't as grumpy.
I wasn't as sort of generally fatigued. So not
even sort of sleepy tired, but I felt like, you
know, when you're a bit kind of like a groggy
and I've found that got worse as I got older
in terms of like the night shifts. So as I say,
doing the two to four, when I was younger, I'd
go in for the two nights, I might not sleep much.
And so I'd have four, but it wouldn't matter.
And I'd finish eight o 'clock in the morning.
um and me four days off were all off i wouldn't
go back to bed it was absolutely fine the older
i got i might have to go to bed for a little
bit my older i got i have to go a little bit
more and it probably by the time i left i probably
need the first two days that were off to kind
of recover until i was sort of back to normal
um but yeah a hundred percent i felt a million
times better but again i didn't realize how bad
i was until i was out of it um and you kind of
when you actually and that's where i totally
agree with where you're going and and like the
mission that you're on because I just think I
think it's killing people and it's even if it's
not sort of killing people sort of directly it's
affecting people's home life and their health
in general so even if it's not sort of sending
them to a grave for everyone although I believe
it will do for some it 100 % affects it needs
to be thought of it can't just be especially
as now and again I presume in America when you
do the 24 -hour shifts and things before eight
hours or whatever Obviously you've got beds where
we haven't got beds anymore. There's a couple
of the brigades left, I think in the whole sort
of country. So we do sort of night shifts with
sleeping platforms, they call. So you can kind
of bring in, you bring in unofficially camp beds
and people sort of put sort of cushions together
and put sort of chairs together for downtime
is what they call it. Everyone knows what's happening,
but officially there's no beds. So people just
sort of play the game a little bit. And that
is even worse because you're not even getting,
not that you slept well anyway with beds, but.
you're not even getting the proper sleep now
because you're on a camp bed. See, it's funny
with this push. You always got the people, oh,
they're going to go back to 12s then, careful
what you wish for and all this stuff. No, because
the science shows that 12 hours to go from days
to nights are awful because your circadian rhythm
never is set. With the 24... Your day is day
and night is still night. It just, you know,
you probably are going to be up during the night.
But then, as you said, now you've got these recovery
days in between after every single shift. But
I've just been talking to another department
and the same thing. They took all the beds out
and they're on 12s. And if they went to 24, they
are an anomaly because they're a 42 hour work
week. Everywhere else around them is 56. Who's
doing a 24? 48. So if they went, if they just
simply changed to 24 hour shifts, they would
be able to send, you know, turn around the recruitment
because they would be the only place that had
this shorter shift now. But despite the fact
that it's a shorter work week, people don't want
to work those 12. So they'd rather do a longer
work week where there's a 24 hour shift. And
I think even operationally, so many of us have
so many things to do as far as checkouts and
training and workouts. And, you know, as you
said, public education and testing hydrants.
That, you know, there's so much that we're responsible
for. You need a longer shift. And so that way,
when you're done with your full day, then you
can actually go to bed and then obviously you're
going to wake up. But that this opposition to
sleep, you know, people say, well, you know,
you get paid to sleep. Yeah, but so do pilots,
so do truck drivers, so do, you know, air stewardesses,
so do... People on cruise ships, there's lots
of people that get paid to sleep. Our military,
you pissed off that we're not at war constantly?
What do you think they're doing at night? They're
sleeping. So this whole facade that we need to
keep firefighters busy all the time and don't
let them rest, it could not be more opposite
from what actually needs to happen. So I don't
know if there's a need for it, but I feel that
if the British Fire Service really wanted to...
you know make a massive positive change the 24
72 not to mention if you do work in london for
example that's only one day in four that you
need to actually make that commute now yeah and
and there's loads yeah because i always exactly
i've had the same sort of conversations with
people about sort of sleeping and it's kind of
like a joke especially from your mates who aren't
firefighters all you do all you do all day is
sleep and one i have to stop saying no we don't
but then i've stopped trying to argue it but
what i do say so sometimes is okay then your
house is on fire would you rather that i've had
sleep or not have sleep so you would want me
sort of rested surely even even if i even if
i was sort of sleeping which i'm not that's only
that's only going to be a good thing and what
can you do at night anyway you might be able
to go to the gym but you're not going to go out
and test hydrants at two in the morning you're
not going to fit a smoke alarm There isn't anyone
who's going to want to knock on the door from
the fire service at two in the morning to fit
a smoke alarm. And then they say about the ambulance
or whatever, for example, you don't get to sleep.
But that's a bad thing. we shouldn't all do a
bad shift just because somebody does we should
all be aligning all on the same page i totally
agree i'm not you know ambulance drivers are
horrifically they're even worse in a way because
it's non -stop and they're always sort of working
they don't get any downtime but that's not doesn't
mean we should all match those shifts we we should
be helping them as well so it drives me you know
We had a dabble, probably not us as a service,
but there was what we had called LARS sort of
systems, which was similar to low activity stations,
sort of tried 24 and 48 hour shifts. There was
not a bad word about it. The bad side came about
like the things like sort of leave and like the
admin of it. For me, all that is superficial
stuff that would sort of, because it's a big
change, obviously everyone goes, oh my God, it's
a change. But then after sort of six months,
it would become the norm anyway. But yeah, I
don't get the reluctance to even sort of try
something for a few months because it's going
to help everything financially for the service.
Say if you did the 24, so we have a lot of detachment.
So if someone is short, then you might get sort
of sent to another station if your watch is up
one day, for example. So if you do at the moment,
so on a four day of a shift pattern of two days
and two nights, you might have to send somebody
there and they come back. You send another person
the next day and they come back. If you did it,
so you have to pay for like sort of travel there
and overtime there and travel there and back
and overtime for there and back. If you did 24
hours, that would only be twice there and then
back. At the moment, over a 24 hour period, you
could be doing it sort of two or four times.
So there's loads of benefits that I think are
short sighted from services. It might not work
everywhere, but it might do. And the benefits
of it working massively outweigh sort of what's
happening now. And the knock -on could be incredible.
So you should be really sort of proud of what
you're doing. I think it could be game -changing.
I mean, there's definitely a revolution happening
here. And there are people that have gone on
12s that have gone on 24 in a couple of places
in the country, and then the rest have gone to
the shorter work week, 24 -48. They were working
and now 24 -72. Where the conundrum is with police,
with, you know, dispatch, with, you know, ER
doctors and nurses, ambulance, like you said,
is, you know, again, it's rest and recovery.
So if you look at what's happened in the corporate
space in the UK, they did, I'm sure you saw the
news. There was a big, big. tests where a load
of big progressive corporations tried a four
-day work week four -day civilian work week so
they worked monday to friday nine to five i'm
sorry monday to thursday nine to five and then
they had you know sat friday saturday sunday
off they had the same level if not higher productivity
efficiency and much higher innovation because
people are like, all right, well, I got to get
this work done in four days now. How do I streamline
this? And yet they had a happier, healthier workforce
using less sick days because they had this three
-day weekend. So for our, you know, professions
where it has to be 12s, you know, ER, physicians,
et cetera, then why are we not having the conversation
of giving them more rest and recovery, not the
24 -hour shift for them? because it is a different
dynamic, but why are they working 40, 45 -hour
weeks? If Google can work 32 hours, why can't
the person driving the ambulance and the medic
in the back be working a shorter work week because
we're asking them to stay up throughout the night?
So I think there's an opportunity to look at
the 12 hour work weeks of the people that you
just physically cannot make do 24 hours and go,
OK, well, then how can we give more rest and
recovery and up the staffing for those professions?
So, as you said, when they respond to your three
year old who's, you know, in anaphylaxis, that
that paramedic is going to be able to get the
drug doses right and save your child's life.
Yeah, definitely. And I think there's enough
evidence, not only academic evidence, but academics
of other organisations and whether it be in the
fire service or out, where it has been trialled
and it is working. So why don't we learn from
it? There seems to be such a slow, it's like
sort of swimming in Marmite, especially in the
fire service. They're just sort of so reluctant
to kind of make a change. I always just sort
of say it where I am now because one of the first
things I did, because I was kind of new to like
a middle management kind of role, I'd analyze
everything in terms of like I take a policy or
procedure that I'm sort of like directly responsible
for. And I'd ask, well, why are we doing that?
And if there's a reason for it, then great. And
can we improve it or whatever? But a lot of the
time, the answer was, I'm not really sure. It's
just we've always done it. And to me, that isn't
an answer. And that's the same with everything.
If nobody knows why we're doing something, it
needs to be kind of looked at. You don't just
have to stick at doing something. Otherwise,
we'll still be sort of going to fires and horses
and shit like that. There's a reason why things
change. So everything, and there's, although
the upheaval for certain sort of like a... shifts
but can be but like i say i think we should learn
from other places and give it a go if the worst
happens and whatever happens there's 100 house
fires everyone sort of burns to death there's
20 heart attacks or we're not getting to kind
of jobs guess what you can you can always go
back i know it'd be a pain but there is that
is always an option so i don't know why if everything
it just seems like it's sort of stuck in two
worlds i think and again i can only really speak
of the fire service because i know more about
that than than like the other services but It
seems like we're stuck, we've moved away from
the heavily sort of like a traditional, and there
was a big sort of link from the military, and
it was quite sort of rigid with the boot polish
and things like that, and everything was inspected
with a finger and a white glove when the gaff
used to come around on the truck and all that.
We've moved away from that, but now we're in
a bit of limbo where we're not 100 % in the modern
world either, and we're kind of clinging on to
this. We've got to learn, we've got to progress
in every sort of section of it. And it kind of
needs to be someone's sort of job to go through
it. Maybe even like an external person who's
not sort of precious about the fire service and
not sort of precious about anything else and
can say, well, what is the best for that organization?
And if that's the case, then why aren't we doing
it? Where at the moment, there just seems to
be a lot of people holding onto things for no
real reason. Yeah. I mean, I've used this analogy
many times, but the American fire helmet is the
perfect. analogy for that. You can see over my
shoulder there is a schematics and the American
fire helmets on there is 1937. And yet people
still think that that's what makes them a good
firefighter. No, it's not. It's actually an awful
piece of equipment. And as we've said many times,
the Navy SEALs don't wear tin hats. They have
the latest, greatest gear. And the American fire
service will ridicule the British fire helmet.
Oh, it's a space helmet, whatever. it's better
like i wore the east coast helmet most of my
career the west coast helmet which is smaller
when i went back to the east i kept banging my
head on everything because the smaller helmet
i was used to but yeah the moment we have an
extrication the hack the helmet comes off put
it on top of the the car you know just bailout
videos where the guys doing the the ladder bailout
and the helmet comes off first so obviously if
they let go of the helm the the ladder they're
gonna you know basically land on their head um
but it's this kind of narcissistic arrogance
that that's what makes you a firefighter because
it's how you look versus like you said letting
go of that being proud of that being one of the
rungs in the ladder of the fire service history
but leaning into what is the latest greatest
because that's what We're there to do, to save
other people. So I want the latest helmet with
the torch built in and the comms in my ear and
the ergonomic elements so I'm not getting hung
up on all kinds of shit if I'm climbing through
a collapse. I mean, it makes perfect sense. And
it's the same with this work week. We pick and
choose the innovations that we want. So rather
than going, all right, everyone in every area,
what are the best things? And when it comes to
the work week and sleep and that kind of thing.
This is glaringly the obvious thing. You don't
even need research. It's a shorter work week,
more recovery, more time at home. It's going
to equate to higher levels of performance, more
intact relationships and longevity in their health.
So the resistance is coming really. Like when
you're saying with the fitness standards and
people opposing it, I see the resistance coming
from people that don't want to do their job as
a leader. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And the problem is
I don't know what the answer is. And it tends
to be there's a lot of people who have enjoyed
the best bits of the job over the years and they've
got sort of like promoted and they're the ones
who are either reluctant to change or are making
changes that are better for the organisation
in terms of stats and figures and all that. And
you think you wouldn't have said that 10 years
ago when you were on sort of station either.
So there tends to be a lot of things. The only
thing I'd say about the helmets, I like the old
ones because... of when it rained because the
rain would sort of scoop off. We're now on the
helmets we've got now, which are tight. It goes
right down your neck. But that's the only thing
I'd like to keep from the old helmets. All right.
And that's what I said to the Americans. We don't
have to have the European helmet. Make one even
better. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean?
Listen to the Americans. Listen to the Spanish
and the French and everyone else. All right,
what don't you like about your hair? Well, the
rain. All right, well, then invent something
even better. You go to these trade shows, and
it's the same helmet. You're in a trade show.
Aren't you supposed to bring innovation? This
isn't a fucking museum. Yeah, exactly. I don't
get it. Anyway, moving on. All right, well, then
talk to me about fitness at the front line. So
yes, it's taken a few forms over the years. So
I started it when I was on the trucks and it
was just online coaching basically. And because
obviously because of the shift work, the shift
pattern, I had a lot of work to work on it and
I've worked with clients. People come to me,
say, I want to join the fire service or I'm in
the fire service. I want to improve my fitness.
How it's kind of morphed over the years, especially
now I'm in this role because I'm busier now in
terms of like it's a nine to five and longer
hours. I've kind of moved away from, like the
day -to -day of online sort of coaching. And
I've got, again, it's not arrogance, but I've
got like a bigger view of it now. So I kind of
want to build something a bit more sort of tangible
and substantive. So I'm trying to go down, I'm
going down more of like, not necessarily like
the academic route, but because I'm a bit of
a, I'm like a policy nerd and like a research
nerd without having the background in terms of
having a PhD and a hundred degrees and all that.
So I'm still sort of learning. but i try and
it's trying spreading the word of tactical fitness
to people who wouldn't normally do it so for
example i've done a couple of i've been a guest
sort of lecturer a few sort of unis over here
on sports science courses so basically to advertise
that there are there's other ways to utilize
sort of strength and conditioning in sports science
other than just sort of joining a sports team
or joining the nhs or whatever and how important
because over here the term sort of tactical sort
of for fitness isn't as well kind of known as
it is in the states um so it's something i'm
trying to grow over here it's something i want
to get more involved in As I say, academically,
I'm involved in a few research projects, always
as a support. I'm not high up enough in terms
of running the research yet, but that's my plan.
I'd like to do papers on different areas and
whether it's reducing injuries and helping out
firefighters in general. It's morphed into doing
talks and presentations and seminars and that
for people who want to know more and how it can...
sort of reach into everyday life a lot more than
kind of what it is so it's something i'm quite
kind of passionate about where it's going i'm
not really sure to be honest so i'm not really
here to plug anything if i'm honest um i just
want to sort of speak to as many people as possible
and learn from as many people as as possible
and see if if i can sort of help develop or develop
something and work with people to kind of push
the industry a little bit sort of forward and
there's a little sort of group of us so i'm part
of also other than national fire fit steering
group it's called so there's like a it's not
really a governing body but there's a big sort
of of guidance sort of body called the NFCC over
here which sort of oversees and gives sort of
guidance on everything it's kind of a to do with
the fire service and a sub group off that is
this sort of fire fit group so it's the equivalent
of me so I'm the fitness advisor for Staffordshire
so all the fitness advisors from all the countries
as academics in the group sort of lecturers as
operational people and we sort of plan of what
um how the future of fitness right down to fitness
tests and standards is going to sort of look
like over the next sort of few years and there's
a group of us within that who are really keen
to kind of do that and progress it and it's just
it's just an interesting way of trying to push
things from the inside and seeing sort of where
it leads because i think it's always kind of
growing there's always research sort of coming
out but i think in the uk especially we're quite
behind um so yeah so it's just being a part of
that really and trying to do trying to do what
i can try and work with as many people as possible
beautiful well i want to throw some closing questions
at you before i let you go that's okay yes yeah
all right first of all i'd love to ask is there
a book or are there books that you love to recommend
it can be related to our conversation today or
completely unrelated oh good question i should
have prepped There's a couple of non, probably
normal books, but quite inspiring books. One
of them is random, is Arnold Schwarzenegger's
Autobiography. I know it sounds ridiculous, but
one of his kind of stories is crazy, sort of
where he's come from and what he's done. And
it's not going down his political sort of roots
or anything like that, but it's kind of like
about his sort of work ethic is super, super
inspiring, really. And going down the same route
of sort of David Goggins. I love his stuff. I
mean, he's absolutely batshit, but he's so inspirational.
We can't and shouldn't do what he does. It's
not necessarily, I don't think it's particularly
healthy what he does. However, his sort of mindset
is kind of super inspiring. read a book of his
you're like right game on I need to kind of you
know it kind of spurs you on in terms of yeah
I should have prepped this really but I read
a lot so I listen to a lot of books but I'm also
a big fan of podcasts so there's a few people
I listen to but it's more I think the biggest
sort of secret is taking views from people from
different fields so like my main job is health
and fitness and strength and conditioning and
i do sort of listen and watch a lot of stuff
however it can be a sports sports sort of podcast
a book it could be like an entertainer it could
be you know someone like a joe rogan for example
on his sort of podcast a lot the weird and wonderful
it doesn't always mean that you agree with everything
that's on there and your podcast is a good example
without sort of blowing smoke but it's the the
most interesting conversations sort of sometimes
i think start with people you don't expect so
i think it's just being as wide as possible with
and taking in as much possible that doesn't really
answer the question And I'll probably, as soon
as we hang up, I'll probably think of 10 books
that I've read that I'd hand over. But that's
the best I can do at the moment. Apologies. No,
no, it's great. Thank you. I appreciate that.
All right. What about films, documentary, television?
Oh, another good one. Films, I think, is a range.
I think there's the cool films that everyone
says. But I don't think there's anything wrong
with a Rocky. I don't think there's anything
wrong with sort of turning your brain off. I
don't really want to be educated when I watch
a film. Do you know what I mean? I want to be
entertained. And I think a lot of people get
a bit sort of snoopy about films. But I like
anything with most sort of comedies and biopics
as well. I watch a lot of them. TV. It's weird
with TV. I watch a lot of TV, but I can't say.
anything i particularly like my favorite of all
time randomly is west wing i love that um and
i've watched a lot of the series a few times
but then i do like i do like the british comedies
i'm a big fan of ricky gervais and things like
that so probably sort of stand -up comedy is
what i watch a lot of um and and i think he's
done i like his outlook on life and as we're
sort of talking about what you can and can't
sort of joke about i like the way that he presents
it, how he explains that we should be able to
joke about anything really in the right sort
of environment, obviously not on CBBs, but on,
you know, so yeah. So a lot of comedy. I'll watch
most things really. I love that show he did where
he'd lost his partner. I forget what it was called
now, but it was about, about death and grieving
basically. Oh, afterlife. Yeah. So good. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Really good. And I think it's things
like that. You watch it and on the face of it,
you think it's a comedy, but it's so sort of
deep and meaningful. And, you know, I always
call it, it's the same as sort of Derek as well.
Have you watched that? I think I started watching
that, but I don't think I made it through, but
that might've been when I was on shift. And when
I was on shift, I would fall asleep in the first
10 minutes of a lot of time. But it takes, it's
not as, as, as watchable as that. Cause it. you've
got to get past the comedy. It's really funny,
but there's some really deep and meaningful things
in it. And it's a bit like the afterlife. It's
hilarious at some point. It's kind of like perfect
TV, but then the next time you're on the verge
of crying and things like that. So I love things
that sort of play with me. I love things where
I don't know where it's going as well. So sort
of films that you're watching, you're thinking,
I have no idea how this is going to end. So like
sort of No Country for Old Men, that's a few
years old now. But it just kind of ends at the
end and things like that. And although at the
time you're like, that's not an ending, but I
kind of like that when it's not a cheesy sort
of everyone lives happily ever after. Absolutely.
All right. Well, the next question, is there
a person that you recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military and associated professions of the world?
Well, good question. I think there's a few. I'm
trying to think there's a couple that I would
recommend because I find them interesting and
they're both from the academic field. One was
a fitness advisor for fire service, but now he's
in the University of Bath. His name is Rich Stevenson.
And he's a top bloke. And like I say, he's worked
in the fire service, but now he's an academic.
And he was the person who kind of worked on the
research project that built the fitness test
over here. So he'd be a great person to speak
to. He's done a lot of work with a bloke called
James Bilson as well. and he works with him at
Bath Uni and he's currently doing massive sort
of projects with the military and reducing MSK
injuries and things like that and a couple of
little sort of shout outs there's two people
I know quite well one's called Warren Hart so
he's the exercise physiologist at North Yorkshire
and Liam Knoll and they're both doing so Liam
Knoll, for example, he's just devised as part
of his PhD a return to work process and it's
going to be rolled out nationally. And Warren
Hart's doing a lot of work with female firefighters
and things. So although it sounds pretty boring,
they're kind of like the people who are trying
to push things forward from the academic side,
which I kind of think we need a mix of that and
the practical side, obviously. But I know you
said one name, but there's probably four there.
No, brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah, it's funny. Actually,
I'm from Bath originally, just outside Bath.
Ah, right. Okay. Yeah, that's my hood. It's beautiful
there. Absolutely. It's not really a hood. It's
quite middle class, isn't it? Yeah, it's not
a hood at all. All right. Well, then the last
question for you, make sure where everyone can
find you. What do you do to decompress? Good
point. I find that very hard. That opens up another
conversation. I find it hard to turn my brain
off. I suppose it's being at home. It's going
in the gym. I suppose the only time I'm not thinking
about anything is when I'm out and about with
the wife and the dogs or I'm in the gym. It's
the only two times. Generally, I find that is
something I kind of, again, it's going down a
rabbit hole, a bigger conversation. when I'm
watching sort of TV, even I find it hard to switch
off and mine's always thinking about sort of
different sort of projects. So, but the gym is
probably the, that's the only time when I've
got the music in me is I'm not thinking about
anything else other than how sort of weak I'm
getting as I get older. But yeah, so gym and
dogs, I suppose is the answer. That's pretty
much my answer too. So I totally get it. All
right. Well then for people listening, where
can they learn more about you, reach out to you
online? And then what about fitness at the frontline?
So there's two main ways. So the main way at
the moment is on LinkedIn. And on that, I'm just
Mark Pierce, TSACF, because I'm a strength and
conditioning facilitator with the NSCA. So that's
on LinkedIn. On Facebook, it's just my name.
It's just Mark Pierce. And Fitness for the Frontline
is mainly run through Instagram, and it's called
that. So if you give that a search, you'll see
my ugly mug. If anyone wants to reach out. um
even for a chat as i say i'm not sort of pitching
anything but i just want to work with as many
people as possible so if anyone sort of needs
any sort of helpful projects and things like
that i'd love to get involved beautiful well
i want to thank you so much it's been such an
interesting conversation obviously we took tangents
when it came to strength and conditioning and
tests and um you know all the other things that
we've discussed but it's been uh such an amazing
conversation so i want to thank you so much for
being so generous with your time and coming on
the behind the shield podcast today Thank you
very much. Thanks for your time and patience.
I've really enjoyed it.