WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.560 Welcome guys to the Behind the Shield podcast. 00:00:01.740 --> 00:00:03.720 My name is James Geering and this is episode 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:07.500 88 and I am so excited to bring you my next guest. 00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:11.480 Imagine if you will that you are a young boy. 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:14.699 You grew up for your first 10 years or so, innocent, 00:00:14.980 --> 00:00:18.379 playing, dancing, listening to music, and then 00:00:18.379 --> 00:00:21.899 one day a civil war erupts in your country. Your 00:00:21.899 --> 00:00:25.140 family are killed. And you are captured by one 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:27.339 of the guerrilla groups and forced to be a boy 00:00:27.339 --> 00:00:30.839 soldier. The alternative is death. You're fed 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:34.479 drugs. You're deconditioned by having to kill 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.539 other people. And that's all you know for a few 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:41.880 years. And then one day you are rescued by someone 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.799 from the West and then have to undo all that 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.079 trauma that you've been through. Well, that is 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:53.219 Ishmael's story in a nutshell. When I read his 00:00:53.219 --> 00:00:56.420 book, I was blown away. It recalibrated everything 00:00:56.420 --> 00:00:59.299 in my life. It changed the way I raised my son. 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:01.560 And it certainly changed the way when I woke 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:03.299 up, whether I thought I was having a good day 00:01:03.299 --> 00:01:05.379 or not. If there's a roof over my head, if there's 00:01:05.379 --> 00:01:07.840 food in my stomach and my family's, if no one's 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.000 trying to kill us that day, then we're doing 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.040 pretty bloody well. So I wanted to bring Ishmael's 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.000 story to you guys because every single human 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:20.459 needs to hear this story to learn what... true 00:01:20.459 --> 00:01:23.340 true forgiveness is what true kindness and compassion 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:26.079 are and then obviously what he's doing with this 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:28.920 journey he's been through to avoid that happening 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:31.079 or try and stop that happening for the young 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:33.299 men and women that are out there around the planet 00:01:33.299 --> 00:01:35.439 that are still being forced into war by these 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:39.629 horrible people so Before I bring you Ishmael, 00:01:39.629 --> 00:01:42.549 as I always say, please go to iTunes, rate the 00:01:42.549 --> 00:01:45.189 show, and please share the hell out of this. 00:01:45.510 --> 00:01:47.349 The links are going to be all over social media. 00:01:47.430 --> 00:01:49.650 Just click it and share it. Put it on your feed 00:01:49.650 --> 00:01:52.829 and get every single person you can listening 00:01:52.829 --> 00:01:55.750 to this story and obviously then the other incredible 00:01:55.750 --> 00:01:58.769 people that we have on the show. But to me, if 00:01:58.769 --> 00:02:01.629 you listen to this incredible journey that he 00:02:01.629 --> 00:02:05.439 went through. and are not so moved and then look 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:07.959 at your whole life a little differently, then 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:11.199 I'm going to be amazed. So that being said, I 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:38.560 introduce to you Ishmael Beyer. Enjoy. So Ishmael, 00:02:38.580 --> 00:02:41.719 thank you so much for joining us on the Behind 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:45.520 the Shield podcast. I have loved your work and 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:47.919 we'll go into that in a little while. But excuse 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:53.699 me, excuse me, I'm choking on a cookie. I can't 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:55.120 believe that I was reading your book all those 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:57.460 years ago and now here we are and we're having 00:02:57.460 --> 00:03:00.219 this conversation. So firstly, thank you. And 00:03:00.219 --> 00:03:02.860 secondly, where are we finding you on planet 00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:07.560 Earth today? Thank you, James. I'm actually in 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:13.780 Abuja, which is the capital of Nigeria. So, I 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:16.080 mean, I'm in West Africa. So that's where I am 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:19.259 at the moment. Okay. So if it's okay with you, 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:20.919 I'd love to just start at the very, very beginning. 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.740 So can you tell me where you were born and also 00:03:24.740 --> 00:03:27.539 what your family was like? So what your mother 00:03:27.539 --> 00:03:30.180 and father did as a profession and how many brothers 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:33.860 and sisters you had? I was born in Sierra Leone 00:03:33.860 --> 00:03:36.979 in West Africa. It's a very small country there. 00:03:37.180 --> 00:03:40.800 And I was born in the southern part of Israel. 00:03:40.819 --> 00:03:43.319 I was in a very small village. And my mother 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:48.659 was a businesswoman. She did sort of small trade. 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:52.280 You know, she would sell fish and pepper and 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.439 salt and those kinds of everyday goods. And my 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:59.639 father was... He went to school for a little 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:01.879 bit, maybe a first year of university, and then 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.759 stopped because he couldn't afford it. And then 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:07.639 he worked for a mining company that was in the 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:12.879 country as a, what do you call it? He did a lot 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:16.259 of soil sample testing, so as a geologist. Oh, 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:18.120 okay. He did that for a company, yeah. So that 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.740 was his background. And I was the second born 00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:23.519 in a family of three boys, so I had an older 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:28.459 brother and a younger sibling. Okay. Now, what 00:04:28.459 --> 00:04:30.199 was, because obviously we're going to go into 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:33.300 this incredible story of, you know, sadly how 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:35.639 Sierra Leone changed while you were young. But 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.459 can you paint a picture of what life was like 00:04:37.459 --> 00:04:42.300 before the Civil War broke out? Before the Civil 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:45.839 War broke out, life was very simple and beautiful 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:49.060 and amazing. I mean, it was what I knew, but 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:53.800 also in retrospect, I see. how simple and very 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.540 community -oriented it was. I grew up in a place 00:04:56.540 --> 00:04:59.839 where everyone knew your great -grandfather. 00:05:00.100 --> 00:05:02.699 So as a young boy, I was very troublesome. That 00:05:02.699 --> 00:05:04.560 was not very good for me because I couldn't get 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:08.180 away with a lot of things. But I went. There 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:10.899 was a river that fed into an ocean, so I would 00:05:10.899 --> 00:05:13.740 go swimming in the river. We'd dive and look 00:05:13.740 --> 00:05:17.180 for oysters and spearfish. I went hunting with 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:22.439 my uncles. My grandfather was an imam, so he 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:25.220 was an Arabic scholar, so I studied under him 00:05:25.220 --> 00:05:27.980 for a little bit. And I also played football 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:32.060 or soccer for North America. So I would play 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:34.680 football every day and I would go swimming. I 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:38.360 took showers in the river and I would go home. 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.740 We didn't have electricity or tap water or any 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:42.639 of these things, but it was not really an issue 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:44.800 at the time. I didn't think it was something 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.120 that I was missing because that wasn't my life. 00:05:48.089 --> 00:05:49.949 So it was very beautiful and simple, you know, 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:54.129 and I basically ran around all day causing trouble. 00:05:56.990 --> 00:05:59.949 Was it a small village or a large town? What 00:05:59.949 --> 00:06:02.889 was the size of the place? As I was growing up, 00:06:02.889 --> 00:06:05.089 it was a small village where there were maybe 00:06:05.089 --> 00:06:08.470 about 200, 300 people. But then as time went 00:06:08.470 --> 00:06:11.290 on, because it was a mining company nearby, the 00:06:11.290 --> 00:06:13.769 village became a small town, which meant that 00:06:13.769 --> 00:06:15.189 there were people that you didn't necessarily 00:06:15.189 --> 00:06:18.629 know. So it grew bigger as I was growing up and 00:06:18.629 --> 00:06:20.970 so things changed. But initially when I was very 00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:23.129 young, when I was six, seven, it was very, very 00:06:23.129 --> 00:06:29.610 small. Okay. The reason I ask is I've had a guest 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:32.949 on called Sebastian Junger who talks about the 00:06:32.949 --> 00:06:36.589 tribal mentality or how as humans we're supposed 00:06:36.589 --> 00:06:41.149 to be in these groups of smaller tribes. And 00:06:41.149 --> 00:06:43.810 then as cities expand, obviously we lose an element 00:06:43.810 --> 00:06:45.980 of that. So it's interesting. Talking to someone 00:06:45.980 --> 00:06:50.959 that was in a village of about 200, did you find 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:55.699 it was things were better while the tribe was 00:06:55.699 --> 00:06:57.240 smaller, the village was smaller? Yes, actually, 00:06:57.339 --> 00:07:00.939 I believe Sebastian is correct in this assumption, 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:05.560 which is that, you know, the idea of tribe has 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.000 kind of gained a negative connotation over the 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:09.860 years. When people think tribe, they think it's 00:07:09.860 --> 00:07:14.529 very much like, you know, this bad thing. I think 00:07:14.529 --> 00:07:16.649 what, for me, what was amazing about it was that 00:07:16.649 --> 00:07:18.370 there was a strong sense of community. There 00:07:18.370 --> 00:07:20.110 was a belief that, yes, there's an individual, 00:07:20.410 --> 00:07:23.129 that people are individuals, they can do their 00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:24.949 own thing, but there was a very strong belief 00:07:24.949 --> 00:07:28.410 also that the individual needs were never going 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:30.529 to supersede that of the community when it came 00:07:30.529 --> 00:07:32.910 to really important issues, right? That everybody 00:07:32.910 --> 00:07:34.949 would sit down and discuss. I remember as a kid, 00:07:35.029 --> 00:07:36.889 for example, I'll give you two examples. One 00:07:36.889 --> 00:07:39.930 was, if somebody wronged somebody, for example, 00:07:41.529 --> 00:07:43.670 you know there was a fight or whatever the issue 00:07:43.670 --> 00:07:46.850 was or you know somebody slept with another person's 00:07:46.850 --> 00:07:50.610 wife or somebody robbed somebody uh basically 00:07:50.610 --> 00:07:54.529 the entire village sat down with the elders in 00:07:54.529 --> 00:07:58.009 the middle of the circle uh men and women and 00:07:58.009 --> 00:08:00.370 they listened to both parties of the story and 00:08:00.370 --> 00:08:02.430 somebody would say this person did this to me 00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:04.790 and this is what it did to me and my family and 00:08:04.790 --> 00:08:06.550 the other person will explain why they did it 00:08:06.550 --> 00:08:10.149 and but as young boys and girls you sat down 00:08:10.149 --> 00:08:12.269 and you listened And then the witnesses came 00:08:12.269 --> 00:08:14.810 and they said everything. And then basically 00:08:14.810 --> 00:08:17.470 the community then sat together and decided who 00:08:17.470 --> 00:08:21.129 was wrong based on what they've heard and also 00:08:21.129 --> 00:08:23.350 what the punishment would be. And the punishment 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:25.850 was not punitive at all. It was very restorative. 00:08:25.850 --> 00:08:27.889 For example, the punishment would be you're going 00:08:27.889 --> 00:08:30.050 to spend one week with this person to brush their 00:08:30.050 --> 00:08:32.730 farm. From an outsider, it would look like this 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:34.889 is not good. But what this did is that when you 00:08:34.889 --> 00:08:36.970 went to brush somebody's farm with them, you 00:08:36.970 --> 00:08:39.789 spent six, seven hours of the day with them, 00:08:39.850 --> 00:08:42.409 laboring. and you ate together, they brought 00:08:42.409 --> 00:08:45.490 you food, you drank from the same cup or gourd 00:08:45.490 --> 00:08:48.610 of water. So eventually the two of you are going 00:08:48.610 --> 00:08:50.610 to talk about what has happened between yourselves 00:08:50.610 --> 00:08:53.049 without the village intervention. And you're 00:08:53.049 --> 00:08:55.730 going to sort it out. After one week together, 00:08:55.789 --> 00:08:57.710 you're going to find a way to deal. So people 00:08:57.710 --> 00:08:59.889 will come back to the village having decided 00:08:59.889 --> 00:09:02.490 however they wanted to patch up things, and that 00:09:02.490 --> 00:09:04.509 will be the end of it. The other part is that 00:09:04.509 --> 00:09:09.190 if somebody had been given land, the town distributed 00:09:09.190 --> 00:09:12.340 land. to build houses based on how big your family 00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:15.299 was and what your need was for land to build 00:09:15.299 --> 00:09:18.200 home a home and then the entire village would 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.879 pitch in so the carpenters would be around uh 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.279 the masoners would be around the little boys 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:26.240 would go like me will go fetch uh water or sand 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.580 or stone and basically the village will pitch 00:09:28.580 --> 00:09:30.940 in day after day until the new neighbor's house 00:09:30.940 --> 00:09:33.190 was finished And then it became everywhere. You 00:09:33.190 --> 00:09:35.009 understand? So that was the kind of life that 00:09:35.009 --> 00:09:37.950 I grew up in, you know, where it was very much 00:09:37.950 --> 00:09:40.289 everybody cared for each other deeply and everybody 00:09:40.289 --> 00:09:44.009 had a stake in things, you know. And when, of 00:09:44.009 --> 00:09:46.470 course, my village became a town, that was less 00:09:46.470 --> 00:09:49.970 and less. And therefore, people would turn another 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:53.129 eye when somebody was being robbed or harassed 00:09:53.129 --> 00:09:54.990 next to them. They would say, well, it's not 00:09:54.990 --> 00:09:56.889 my business. I don't know this person, you know. 00:09:57.090 --> 00:10:00.090 And that changed, you know. It's amazing looking, 00:10:00.230 --> 00:10:04.090 you know, at the less developed areas of the 00:10:04.090 --> 00:10:07.830 world. And here we are now, you know, and not 00:10:07.830 --> 00:10:11.809 everyone, but a lot of us now are so, so wealthy, 00:10:11.889 --> 00:10:14.009 you know, as far as material items and creature 00:10:14.009 --> 00:10:17.649 comforts. But we're just searching for this happiness. 00:10:17.669 --> 00:10:22.129 And you look at, you know, the villages in Asia, 00:10:22.289 --> 00:10:24.669 in Africa, you know, the Native Americans before 00:10:24.669 --> 00:10:27.970 we got here. And the model was already there 00:10:27.970 --> 00:10:29.970 and it seemed to be working very well. And obviously, 00:10:30.090 --> 00:10:31.850 you know, there was still violence and tribal 00:10:31.850 --> 00:10:34.629 conflict, but that model of the community seems 00:10:34.629 --> 00:10:37.450 to be the one that we need to, you know, to look 00:10:37.450 --> 00:10:39.090 backwards instead of thinking we've always got 00:10:39.090 --> 00:10:41.750 to progress and look and learn from these tribes 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:44.210 that have existed for thousands and thousands 00:10:44.210 --> 00:10:46.769 and thousands of years and say, all right, maybe 00:10:46.769 --> 00:10:48.389 they were right and we went a little bit too 00:10:48.389 --> 00:10:50.169 far. Yeah, you know, I think that, you know, 00:10:50.169 --> 00:10:52.629 obviously, I think development and modernization 00:10:52.629 --> 00:10:54.509 is not completely a bad thing. You know, there 00:10:54.509 --> 00:10:56.629 are certain things. They, you know, have lived 00:10:56.629 --> 00:10:58.210 in the West for a number of years. So there are 00:10:58.210 --> 00:11:00.230 certain things that people could benefit from 00:11:00.230 --> 00:11:03.230 in these environments. But, you know, I think 00:11:03.230 --> 00:11:05.970 as we develop in the concept of modernism is 00:11:05.970 --> 00:11:08.769 that we forget to be human, to reflect, you know, 00:11:08.769 --> 00:11:10.909 forget to build our characteristics. We're after 00:11:10.909 --> 00:11:14.870 the material things so much that perhaps we forget. 00:11:15.110 --> 00:11:17.750 I don't want to use a religious term, but maybe 00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:20.309 like a spiritual. We forget our own spiritual 00:11:20.309 --> 00:11:23.330 growth, you know, our growth as human beings 00:11:23.330 --> 00:11:26.820 in terms of character, you know. And we forget 00:11:26.820 --> 00:11:28.879 those things. And I think in big urban environments, 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.679 we quickly forget that human closeness that had 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.399 allowed humanity to constantly survive and overcome. 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:37.120 If you look at history, the times that human 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.200 beings have been able to get over things is when 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:40.940 we come together, right? When something happens 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:44.059 to us. And we decide to come together as a group, 00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:46.559 as a community, as a neighborhood, and stand 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.779 up against something or try to fix something. 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:53.279 Then it works. I remember I used to live in New 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:56.440 York, perhaps I'm fast -forwarding, but at some 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:59.539 point there was a whole power cut on the eastern 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:03.080 seaboard a few summers. And everybody came out 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.320 and sat on the street and shared their food and 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.720 talked to each other. And it felt so amazing, 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:10.600 but yet the lights were off. You couldn't really 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:12.600 see each other, but people were so human. And 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:14.100 as soon as the lights came back on, everybody 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:15.879 went back into their apartments. They stopped 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.879 saying hello to each other again. It was like, 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:21.419 all right. It wasn't as a little test that, you 00:12:21.419 --> 00:12:24.419 know, we can still have these lights on and we 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:27.120 can have those amazing things that makes us comfortable, 00:12:27.139 --> 00:12:30.639 but we don't need to forget to acknowledge each 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:32.720 other's humanity. Once we start to do that, we 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:34.519 lose something, you know, we gain something, 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.179 modernization and individuality, but we also 00:12:37.179 --> 00:12:39.799 lose certain connections, you know? Yeah, and 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:41.639 that's what he talks about. I mean, a lot of 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.549 the examples that he had used were... London 00:12:45.549 --> 00:12:48.649 in the bombing of World War II or after 9 -11 00:12:48.649 --> 00:12:51.269 in New York, where they were seeing the sense 00:12:51.269 --> 00:12:53.029 of community. And just like you said, when the 00:12:53.029 --> 00:12:55.789 dust settled, everyone kind of went back to losing 00:12:55.789 --> 00:12:58.470 the very thing that pulled them together. Yep, 00:12:58.529 --> 00:13:03.330 absolutely. All right. Well, so you're obviously 00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:07.490 having this early childhood in your village. 00:13:08.830 --> 00:13:11.610 You're seeing growth in the town. Now, what was 00:13:11.610 --> 00:13:14.429 the resource that they were mining that expanded? 00:13:15.389 --> 00:13:18.649 Well, in this part of, in the southern part, 00:13:18.769 --> 00:13:22.870 we had a lot of mineral that's called rutile. 00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:28.389 We also had bauxite, iron ore, some diamonds. 00:13:28.730 --> 00:13:31.990 So you had, there's American Australian company 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:34.820 that was there. and there was a german company 00:13:34.820 --> 00:13:37.759 in the next town so there are a lot of you know 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.820 foreign foreigners in the area but mostly men 00:13:40.820 --> 00:13:42.799 you know white men who were working for these 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.419 companies and so basically those are the minerals 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.799 that they were extracting from the area and of 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:52.500 course this brought about its own thing even 00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:54.559 before the war started this started to change 00:13:56.109 --> 00:13:58.870 the town that I grew up in, the village that 00:13:58.870 --> 00:14:00.750 became a town. For example, the water sources 00:14:00.750 --> 00:14:03.649 were a little bit polluted with mining because 00:14:03.649 --> 00:14:05.750 the particular kind of mining they were doing, 00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:09.070 they had to create these artificial dams to flood 00:14:09.070 --> 00:14:11.309 some of the areas so that they can dig what they 00:14:11.309 --> 00:14:13.929 wanted to dig. And so some of these waters then 00:14:13.929 --> 00:14:16.129 went into the natural waters that we had and 00:14:16.129 --> 00:14:19.970 polluted them. And then we needed pump water, 00:14:20.110 --> 00:14:25.710 which was not available. difficulties began uh 00:14:25.710 --> 00:14:29.830 in that sense yeah yeah oh god it's just it's 00:14:29.830 --> 00:14:32.529 it's gut -wrenching to think of you know what's 00:14:32.529 --> 00:14:35.289 what the the impact is of some of these industries 00:14:35.289 --> 00:14:38.070 to the people around even whatever wherever they 00:14:38.070 --> 00:14:41.649 are on the planet yes absolutely i mean the thing 00:14:41.649 --> 00:14:43.850 is these these minerals you know they serve certain 00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:47.129 things and obviously they can be extracted um 00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:50.009 and there's a benefit to the community i think 00:14:50.009 --> 00:14:52.070 everybody's for that you know i think but it's 00:14:52.070 --> 00:14:55.210 when there is none and then when also it creates 00:14:55.210 --> 00:14:57.669 these issues that are not remedied you know for 00:14:57.669 --> 00:14:59.590 example you know we're a very subsistence farming 00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:01.889 community where we grew rice we grew cassava 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:04.350 we grew the things we needed and we sold them 00:15:04.350 --> 00:15:07.929 to to to to get money to buy other things we 00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:11.129 couldn't produce like salt and whatnot and so 00:15:11.129 --> 00:15:14.960 but when they destroy the land And there was 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.179 no longer arable land for farming. Obviously, 00:15:17.179 --> 00:15:20.879 people either left or went to the capital city 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.360 or tried to find a job within the company itself. 00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:29.100 And so things changed. And then this meant that 00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:31.580 they now had to rely upon other sources of food 00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:34.259 that their bodies were probably not used to digesting. 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:37.460 And that came with other issues. Yeah, and that's 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:39.419 something obviously we see here in the West where 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:42.000 we have food -like products a lot of times and 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:45.779 not real food. So one of my favorite sayings 00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:48.299 I've heard people say about America, for example, 00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:51.340 is that we're overfed but malnourished. Yeah, 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:56.100 absolutely. All right, so what were the first 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:58.679 signs that you saw through your actual own eyes 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:03.460 as a young boy that there were rumblings of some 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:06.720 sort of conflict about to begin? Well, the very 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.500 earliest memory I remember, I think I must have 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:11.399 been nine years old, and I remember my father. 00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:15.860 waking me up very late at night, which was the 00:16:15.860 --> 00:16:18.799 first time he'd done that, and telling me to 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.320 take this bag and that bag and come with me. 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:23.379 And I was a little bit confused because, you 00:16:23.379 --> 00:16:25.659 know, I was still trying to wake up. And then 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:27.519 I asked him, well, what are we doing? And then 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.539 he said, just follow me and be hush, be quiet 00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:33.759 about it. So I went and I saw other young boys 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.580 who were my age with their fathers. And we basically 00:16:36.580 --> 00:16:39.320 walked out of town and went deep into the forest. 00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:41.299 And when we arrived there, there was this clear 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:43.440 and open area, and there were all these traders 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.799 that usually would sell things in town. They 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.039 were all there selling different products that, 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:52.519 you know, they are normally sold in their shops. 00:16:53.539 --> 00:16:56.539 And so my father and all the family people were 00:16:56.539 --> 00:17:00.539 buying and putting them in bags, and I carried 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:03.509 them back, and we returned before morning. And 00:17:03.509 --> 00:17:05.329 so I asked my father, what is this? And he says, 00:17:05.349 --> 00:17:07.589 oh, there's price control. And I didn't really 00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:09.430 quite understand what that was until the next 00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:12.650 morning when basically you had a lot of, you 00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:15.089 know, sort of a new police that had been formed 00:17:15.089 --> 00:17:17.769 that showed up wearing trench coats. And they 00:17:17.769 --> 00:17:21.589 had Israeli Uzis under them. And they basically 00:17:21.589 --> 00:17:25.089 would come to a shop and they would put a trader 00:17:25.089 --> 00:17:27.710 on the gunpoint and they would decide what the 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:30.049 price of commodities in that shop was for that 00:17:30.049 --> 00:17:32.599 day. And what had happened was that the government, 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.700 which I later learned, was that the government 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:37.420 that was in power at the time, the APC, had basically 00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:39.859 decided to do what was called price control because 00:17:39.859 --> 00:17:44.720 they felt the prices of goods were going up. 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:48.619 So instead of subsidizing the market or whatever, 00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:51.279 they just decided to hire a military that came 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.460 and basically put the price down. So that was 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:57.200 my first, I guess, introduction to... what was 00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:59.079 going on in the country and what was changing 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:02.059 because i've never seen that and as that year 00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:04.700 continued i began to not have certain amount 00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:06.480 of food that i used to eat because there was 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:09.059 scarcity and getting things and that's when i 00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:11.220 began to understand that but it was years later 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.980 that the war started but i've always remembered 00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:15.900 those moments as probably that's when things 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:19.519 were really beginning to uh to fall apart you 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:21.480 know if i was as a child at nine i was beginning 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.880 to see those kind of signs it meant that that 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.769 thoughts have probably been I've seen audits 00:18:26.769 --> 00:18:29.630 that I wasn't necessarily paying attention to 00:18:29.630 --> 00:18:32.849 because I was a kid. How did that price control 00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:36.009 pay out? Did it work like they hoped it had? 00:18:36.630 --> 00:18:38.710 No, it didn't. I mean, I was a kid, nine years 00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:40.849 old, but I thought to myself, you know, I'm not 00:18:40.849 --> 00:18:42.950 an economist or anything, but I don't think that 00:18:42.950 --> 00:18:45.670 works. That's not how you change. I didn't know 00:18:45.670 --> 00:18:47.549 the solutions, but I just thought it wasn't going 00:18:47.549 --> 00:18:50.609 to work because you can just come and tell people, 00:18:50.670 --> 00:18:52.849 ah, I don't care how much you bought your product. 00:18:52.869 --> 00:18:54.609 You have to sell it at this price now, you know? 00:18:58.789 --> 00:19:00.309 I'm sorry, I was going to say it seems to me 00:19:00.309 --> 00:19:03.170 like it would just destroy the shops eventually 00:19:03.170 --> 00:19:04.970 because they were undercutting and not able to 00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:06.910 make a profit and then the food would go away. 00:19:07.250 --> 00:19:09.170 Absolutely. So that's why the shops closed down. 00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:10.869 So everybody closed down their shops and they 00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:12.630 were not around during the day. And so if you 00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:14.450 wanted to buy, you went to meet them where you 00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:17.990 could buy at the right price. And it was just, 00:19:18.049 --> 00:19:19.869 it was unfortunate. I thought to myself, well, 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:25.430 that cannot work. But somehow, whoever was in 00:19:25.430 --> 00:19:31.410 power felt that this was the policy. I mean, 00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:34.809 the resources that went into training a few of 00:19:34.809 --> 00:19:36.690 these guys and buying them Israeli Uzi's and 00:19:36.690 --> 00:19:41.910 trench coats in the hot weather, you know. Something 00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:43.650 that could have been done with all that money. 00:19:43.849 --> 00:19:47.349 But anyway. Well, it sounds like the same philosophy 00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:49.509 applies all over the world with the leaders, 00:19:49.549 --> 00:19:54.289 though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that was your 00:19:54.289 --> 00:19:56.710 first glimpse. So if you wouldn't mind kind of 00:19:56.710 --> 00:19:58.990 walking us through what the next few years were 00:19:58.990 --> 00:20:02.529 like until that got awful day where your whole 00:20:02.529 --> 00:20:04.930 life changed. Well, the next few years, basically, 00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:07.029 things progressively got worse. There was more 00:20:07.029 --> 00:20:09.289 and more scarcity of food, and then the teachers 00:20:09.289 --> 00:20:12.170 were not getting paid. So a lot of teachers stopped 00:20:12.170 --> 00:20:16.730 coming to school to teach. Some schools began 00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:18.829 to collapse because school materials and government 00:20:18.829 --> 00:20:22.599 support was not coming anymore. And then hospitals 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:25.000 started to close down. And it was basically the 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.440 country began to fall apart. And then we began 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:33.359 to see people coming from the eastern part of 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.380 my country towards the south, running for their 00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:38.500 lives. They were carrying a few bags and their 00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:41.140 children. And they looked very disturbed from 00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:43.019 their faces. These are not faces that we used 00:20:43.019 --> 00:20:44.440 to see. And we asked them what had happened. 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:46.859 And they said, well, a war had started in the 00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:48.619 country. And there were people destroying their 00:20:48.619 --> 00:20:51.710 homes. And soldiers were fighting this group 00:20:51.710 --> 00:20:53.930 called the RUF, the Revolutionary United Front, 00:20:54.009 --> 00:20:56.390 that was going to overthrow the country. And 00:20:56.390 --> 00:20:58.549 they started burning their homes and taking their 00:20:58.549 --> 00:21:00.450 children and throwing them into the fighting. 00:21:01.430 --> 00:21:03.549 I didn't believe what they were saying. In fact, 00:21:03.589 --> 00:21:05.369 I think a few people in my community thought 00:21:05.369 --> 00:21:07.369 people were exaggerating a lot of these things 00:21:07.369 --> 00:21:09.410 because this is not the community we grew up 00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:11.950 in. You know, this is not to say we never seen 00:21:11.950 --> 00:21:14.009 fights and things like that, but not this level, 00:21:14.150 --> 00:21:17.150 never seen war or anything like that. So we did 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:20.519 not believe it until... Maybe a year after that 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:24.799 The world began to come closer and closer So 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:26.920 you began to see people you knew from the next 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:28.799 village actually coming through a village running 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.140 So you began to worry a little bit that that 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:35.359 can be wrong, you know But one one day my older 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:37.700 brother my older brother was into American hip 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:39.640 -hop music because of the mining company And 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.680 so he taught me how to dance to do the running 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.609 man You know, we had our hair done like the MC 00:21:44.609 --> 00:21:46.910 Hammer old school style and all that stuff. My 00:21:46.910 --> 00:21:49.410 father did not like any of this at all. He was 00:21:49.410 --> 00:21:54.329 very upset. So we would participate in these 00:21:54.329 --> 00:21:57.009 talent shows that were put around, you know, 00:21:57.049 --> 00:22:00.250 with similar kids doing all of these things. 00:22:01.150 --> 00:22:04.549 Vanilla eyes moves and all this stuff. So anyway, 00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:07.450 we had gone to a talent show in another town 00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:10.329 called Matrujong. And while we were there, my 00:22:10.329 --> 00:22:14.569 town was attacked. And so my older brother and 00:22:14.569 --> 00:22:16.690 this other friend who were with Taloi decided 00:22:16.690 --> 00:22:21.150 to go back. So we crossed the river and started 00:22:21.150 --> 00:22:25.269 walking. And there were a huge number of people 00:22:25.269 --> 00:22:27.450 coming against us, were going against this tide 00:22:27.450 --> 00:22:30.589 of a lot of people. And so there were boys younger 00:22:30.589 --> 00:22:32.589 than me. At this time, I was 12. There were boys 00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:35.009 younger than me who were running, looking for 00:22:35.009 --> 00:22:38.940 their parents. You know, there are people, you 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:41.500 know, sort of, you know, blood on different parts 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:43.619 of their bodies, people carrying children who 00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:48.599 looked shot. And so we continued walking, and 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:50.380 we just couldn't believe that this had actually 00:22:50.380 --> 00:22:52.940 reached us, what we'd been hearing about. So 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:55.099 we stopped at a village called Kabati, which 00:22:55.099 --> 00:22:57.359 is my grandmother's village that I used to walk 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.799 to from Ogimu. And while we were sitting there, 00:23:00.819 --> 00:23:02.960 just trying to decide what are we going to do. 00:23:03.789 --> 00:23:06.150 We saw two things that, for me, really brought 00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:09.150 everything home. I began to realize that my life 00:23:09.150 --> 00:23:11.890 had changed, that I was not going to go back 00:23:11.890 --> 00:23:14.450 to what it had been. It was that first we saw 00:23:14.450 --> 00:23:19.869 this older man who was carrying his son, and 00:23:19.869 --> 00:23:23.109 in his arms he was holding the boy, and the boy 00:23:23.109 --> 00:23:27.309 had been shot, and he was dead, but nobody wanted 00:23:27.309 --> 00:23:30.630 to tell him because he thought the boy was still 00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:33.410 alive, and I guess that... was what was keeping 00:23:33.410 --> 00:23:35.430 him running from the war. So nobody wanted to 00:23:35.430 --> 00:23:37.430 tell him so that he would stop and lose hope 00:23:37.430 --> 00:23:40.150 and probably get compromised. So everybody just 00:23:40.150 --> 00:23:42.069 urged him on and he just continued running. But 00:23:42.069 --> 00:23:45.589 I'd never seen a man in my community, I'd never 00:23:45.589 --> 00:23:50.009 seen a man, a grown man, cry so hopelessly and 00:23:50.009 --> 00:23:53.109 helplessly, you know. And so that really tormented 00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:55.490 me for a bit. And then the next image that I 00:23:55.490 --> 00:24:00.109 saw was this woman, you know, back in my part 00:24:00.109 --> 00:24:03.039 of the world. uh women have this thing they call 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.140 waistcloth so they tie their children around 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:06.740 their back with it so that their hands will be 00:24:06.740 --> 00:24:09.500 free to do other things and so there was this 00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:12.119 woman who had been running with a with a child 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.119 tied behind her back and she had been running 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.299 and she stopped at where we were watching these 00:24:17.299 --> 00:24:20.519 people coming and she was wanted to rest and 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.240 she sat down under this mango tree and removed 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:26.319 her child and it was a girl and this child had 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.019 been killed as she had she was running and you 00:24:29.019 --> 00:24:31.220 could see the blood and the bullet hole, and 00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:33.319 you could see how the trail of blood had followed 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.079 her. And basically, the only reason why she was 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:37.960 alive was because she carried this baby on her 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:39.880 back. But you can imagine just the confusion 00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.680 of a mother realizing that she's alive because 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.200 her baby had been shot. She had carried her baby 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.200 on her back. And I remember just this interrupted, 00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:51.140 innocent smile on the face of this child, but 00:24:51.140 --> 00:24:53.539 also this mother. There was so much pain in her 00:24:53.539 --> 00:24:56.759 face that she could not even cry. She was completely 00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:59.690 in shock. And so looking at these images, I thought 00:24:59.690 --> 00:25:03.450 to myself, wow, okay, this is gone. This is really 00:25:03.450 --> 00:25:06.970 gone. If that child could be shot, then who was 00:25:06.970 --> 00:25:09.549 stopping anybody from shooting any other person? 00:25:10.069 --> 00:25:12.650 So from that day on, I knew my life had changed. 00:25:12.769 --> 00:25:14.809 And of course, we decided not to continue running 00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:17.490 toward where everybody else was running away 00:25:17.490 --> 00:25:21.190 from. And we went back to Matrujong. And basically, 00:25:21.190 --> 00:25:23.109 I started running from the war from that day 00:25:23.109 --> 00:25:28.180 on. Okay, so I just want to kind of... underline 00:25:28.180 --> 00:25:31.799 your life before so before you were a young boy 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.660 you were playing football you were listening 00:25:34.660 --> 00:25:36.920 to hip -hop when you had this influence you were 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.299 going to talent competitions that sounds the 00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:41.700 same as any other neighborhood pretty much around 00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:44.759 the world and then almost overnight you're seeing 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.279 all these people fleeing and not just you know 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.140 soldiers with battle wounds but obviously clear 00:25:50.140 --> 00:25:53.460 signs of some sort of genocide beginning Yes, 00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:56.400 absolutely. And so from that, you know, from 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.799 that day on, you know, besides being a boy who 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:00.900 loved hip hop, I also went to school, Sierra 00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:02.740 Leone being a former British colony. We had, 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.660 you know, I love Shakespeare. I used to recite 00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:08.359 lines from Shakespeare. And I was actually thinking 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:10.539 I wanted to be an economist and all this stuff. 00:26:10.579 --> 00:26:12.819 So all of that was no longer possible because 00:26:12.819 --> 00:26:15.779 everything was collapsing. So I basically began 00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:17.640 running from war from that day on. So between 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.359 12 and 13, constantly, every day I was running 00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:23.579 for my life. I was learning things that I never 00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:25.140 knew I would learn. For example, just how to 00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:29.920 survive, you know, how to avoid being shot, how 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.220 to – towns were ambushed randomly, you know, 00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:36.019 and you had to run into the bush and try to sleep 00:26:36.019 --> 00:26:39.920 there. So people abandoned towns, which I did, 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:42.720 and you went and slept in the bush because if 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.000 you slept in your house, it could be attacked 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.859 at night by the rebels or even the government 00:26:46.859 --> 00:26:49.500 army, and they would basically shoot up everybody. 00:26:50.059 --> 00:26:51.880 and sometimes they will lock people literally 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:54.440 they'll put padlocks on doors and they will set 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.500 houses on fire and burn you in there completely 00:26:56.500 --> 00:26:59.579 so to avoid that you had to leave town at night 00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:01.960 and go sleep in the bushes and then you come 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:03.839 back during the day to see if the town was still 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.960 standing if they hadn't burned it and to look 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.200 for food and then go back you know So this basically 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.240 became a constant. And prior to this, I had not 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.299 really left my part of the country. So it wasn't 00:27:14.299 --> 00:27:16.759 as if I knew that if I ran this way, I would 00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:18.579 be safe or I would be heading towards the capital 00:27:18.579 --> 00:27:22.680 city. I had no idea. It was because of the war 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:24.740 that I started the movement. So I just basically 00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:28.319 ran away from the gunshots. If there was fighting 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.420 in this direction, I ran the other way. And if 00:27:31.420 --> 00:27:32.680 there was fighting in the other direction, I 00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.720 ran the other way. So basically everybody was 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:39.559 being knocked around by whichever. side of you 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:43.079 know of them that they were hearing the war and 00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:45.519 the gunshots and along the way also we lost people 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.940 you know like you know you know i'd seen people 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:50.500 buried before but i never seen somebody shot 00:27:50.500 --> 00:27:54.579 and killed or died because of hunger and these 00:27:54.579 --> 00:27:57.009 things were happening as we were running Some 00:27:57.009 --> 00:27:59.809 friends of mine died on the way. They were shot 00:27:59.809 --> 00:28:02.170 or maybe they ate something and they were poisoned. 00:28:02.529 --> 00:28:05.470 And we buried them and we took their clothes 00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:07.269 off or we took their shoes off, things that were 00:28:07.269 --> 00:28:09.970 useful to us, and just continued on. And we tried 00:28:09.970 --> 00:28:13.710 not to think about them because that would weaken 00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:16.210 your resolve from continuing on. So these things 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:20.269 that as a child, I was 12 years old, at 12 you 00:28:20.269 --> 00:28:22.789 don't really have, your parents don't sit you 00:28:22.789 --> 00:28:24.450 down and teach you these kinds of things, you 00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:26.720 know. They would hope that you don't, you know. 00:28:26.980 --> 00:28:30.039 So you're sort of basically learning. And I was 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:31.819 separated from everybody. So, you know, people 00:28:31.819 --> 00:28:33.420 had been separated from each other. So I was 00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:36.160 basically constantly running with other kids 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:38.220 I would find. And then I would lose some of them 00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:41.299 and would continue finding other ones. My goodness. 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:43.099 So the group that you were originally with for 00:28:43.099 --> 00:28:45.000 the talent contest, you lost them. And now you 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:46.880 were literally going from group to group to group 00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:50.720 as you fled the conflict. Yes, exactly. So I 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:52.720 was separated from my older brother and then 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.049 from this other friend, Taloi. And then I found 00:28:55.049 --> 00:28:56.769 a group of other kids that I'd been to school 00:28:56.769 --> 00:28:58.609 with, to primary school with, and I knew them. 00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:02.009 So we got together, about six, seven of us, seven 00:29:02.009 --> 00:29:04.430 of us actually. So we continued running. And 00:29:04.430 --> 00:29:07.069 with this group of kids, we lost different, you 00:29:07.069 --> 00:29:10.509 know, we picked some people along the way. But 00:29:10.509 --> 00:29:12.869 it was also what kept us alive around that time 00:29:12.869 --> 00:29:14.630 was this desire that we'd be able to find our 00:29:14.630 --> 00:29:18.289 families, you know. So we looked for them, and 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:21.289 that was the motivation. So every day we would. 00:29:22.230 --> 00:29:24.990 talk to people, did you see, have you seen this 00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:27.269 family member of mine or that uncle of mine or 00:29:27.269 --> 00:29:29.269 my father or my mother? And people would say, 00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:31.369 well, I think I saw them running towards that 00:29:31.369 --> 00:29:33.190 village in that direction or go towards that 00:29:33.190 --> 00:29:35.369 direction. And they were not there because people 00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:38.410 kept moving, you know. So basically this is what 00:29:38.410 --> 00:29:41.329 was keeping me alive at least and some of the 00:29:41.329 --> 00:29:43.170 friends also that I was with because we're all 00:29:43.170 --> 00:29:47.170 from the same town. So we ran, but while we were 00:29:47.170 --> 00:29:49.130 running, the nature of the war changed. In the 00:29:49.130 --> 00:29:53.869 beginning, There were adults fighting, and there 00:29:53.869 --> 00:29:56.509 was word around that they were recruiting children, 00:29:56.650 --> 00:29:58.549 but it wasn't really as strong. But then that 00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:02.890 became really sort of the norm of the war, where 00:30:02.890 --> 00:30:06.670 one of the ways they would recruit children was 00:30:06.670 --> 00:30:08.009 that they would attack a town, and they would 00:30:08.009 --> 00:30:10.470 gather all the young people, boys and girls, 00:30:10.630 --> 00:30:13.210 and they would put weapons in their hands, and 00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:14.869 they would line up their grandparents, their 00:30:14.869 --> 00:30:16.829 fathers, their mothers, and they would basically 00:30:16.829 --> 00:30:19.920 have the children shoot them. And so those children 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:21.700 would not return to their communities anymore 00:30:21.700 --> 00:30:23.400 because of that. So they belonged to this group. 00:30:23.460 --> 00:30:25.960 So it was a very deliberate way of, you know. 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:28.160 And some of the adults who have survived these 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.200 experiences, when they saw young boys and young 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.500 girls like myself running from the war, they 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:34.559 no longer trusted your innocence. They thought 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:36.480 you were part of that group or maybe you were 00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:39.319 spying on when to attack the town. So people 00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:41.400 distrusted your innocence. If you can imagine, 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:43.779 you're 12, 13, running from war. And if you're 00:30:43.779 --> 00:30:46.160 more than one or two in a group, people either 00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:49.240 ran away from you. Or if they couldn't, sometimes 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.119 they attacked us and tried to kill us. So you 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.299 imagine as a kid running, running from madness, 00:30:55.339 --> 00:30:57.779 looking for a family, and you become this threat, 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:01.380 you know, to people. So that meant we bypassed 00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.059 a lot of towns and villages, which meant that 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:04.779 we couldn't have access to food. So we started 00:31:04.779 --> 00:31:08.119 to go through severe hunger. And it was just 00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:12.099 an awful situation, you know. And the whole time 00:31:12.099 --> 00:31:14.019 we're trying to look for our families and, you 00:31:14.019 --> 00:31:16.900 know, that didn't happen, you know. Now, what 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:20.240 was... you went from this this peaceful you know 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.079 life in the village what was the motivation of 00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:26.460 these these guerrillas coming through you know 00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:29.160 attacking these villages to be so to deliberate 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:31.140 i mean i can understand if they were being shot 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:32.819 at and they were they were shooting back but 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.460 to be too deliberate to go by village to village 00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:38.480 to village to the point of locking you guys in 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:40.740 a house and setting fire to it what was the the 00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:44.859 underlying reason for that genocide Well, I mean, 00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:47.839 the idea is that as most places in the world, 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.000 wars usually starts with some sort of ideology, 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:52.160 right? But it's very hard to keep an ideology 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.859 going, you know? And so the RUF, the Revolutionary 00:31:56.859 --> 00:31:58.700 United Front, really started because they wanted 00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:01.940 to get rid of this political party that had been 00:32:01.940 --> 00:32:04.480 in power for 20 -something years and they basically 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.519 destroyed the country. And although that was 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:10.059 needed, when the RUF started, they had lost their 00:32:10.059 --> 00:32:12.589 intellectual branch of the movement. So it was 00:32:12.589 --> 00:32:14.529 the military branch that jump -started the war, 00:32:14.609 --> 00:32:17.809 and they didn't know how to keep their ideology 00:32:17.809 --> 00:32:20.910 alive. They felt if they came to any town and 00:32:20.910 --> 00:32:22.109 said, we're fighting against the government, 00:32:22.170 --> 00:32:24.329 people would just embrace them. But when they 00:32:24.329 --> 00:32:26.210 came to a town, they shot weapons in the air, 00:32:26.230 --> 00:32:27.569 and they attacked the army, and during those 00:32:27.569 --> 00:32:30.069 fights, people died. So people tried to run for 00:32:30.069 --> 00:32:31.769 their lives, and they felt people were running 00:32:31.769 --> 00:32:34.470 away from them. So slowly, they started to get 00:32:34.470 --> 00:32:37.089 very upset. But also, other people saw this as 00:32:37.089 --> 00:32:38.829 an opportunity to use them, because there are 00:32:38.829 --> 00:32:40.470 a lot of natural resources in the areas they 00:32:40.470 --> 00:32:42.980 were roaming around. so they armed them to cause 00:32:42.980 --> 00:32:45.240 chaos so that they can just have access to the 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.599 diamond wells and all this stuff so there's a 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.279 lot of things that were going on at the same 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.859 time also they needed to recruit people so and 00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:54.980 people were not being willingly coming to be 00:32:54.980 --> 00:32:56.900 recruited so they started to force people to 00:32:56.900 --> 00:33:01.220 the course um and basically the war got out of 00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:04.980 hand and so the the military also lost its its 00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:10.099 um it's a command structure you know So if you 00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:11.980 are not in the capital city or one of the big 00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:14.880 towns, the military basically was left on the 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.980 countryside to fend for itself. So a few of the 00:33:16.980 --> 00:33:18.640 commanders thought, hey, why don't we benefit 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:21.019 from the war as well? So then different groups 00:33:21.019 --> 00:33:23.000 started to spring up, doing their own thing on 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:25.599 the side. So at some point, it got really confusing. 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:27.839 Were they really rebels or were they soldiers? 00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:32.019 So basically, it got really confusing. People 00:33:32.019 --> 00:33:33.440 were just trying to fend for their lives. And 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.420 violence became the order of the day, basically. 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:38.940 they come through a town they will loot everything 00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:43.119 they will you know shoot up banks blow up vaults 00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:46.240 take all the money they will go to shops and 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:48.140 take clothes and whatnot you know so basically 00:33:48.140 --> 00:33:49.740 if you had weapons you're part of a group you 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:52.799 survived if not you became a prey to whatever 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:54.700 that group that came through that town wanted 00:33:54.700 --> 00:33:57.740 to do so that that was the nature of it and also 00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:00.319 i think why this war in my opinion why this war 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.180 became really violent Well, for several force, 00:34:03.299 --> 00:34:05.319 you know. For a number of years, the majority 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:07.400 of the people in the country had no sort of power 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:10.980 at all. None. It felt left out. And all of a 00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:13.960 sudden, if you joined a little group, you were 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:15.860 a sub -commander of a group, you had this incredible 00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:19.840 power, right? So you felt, wow, I can do anything 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.239 and nobody can, nothing can come of it, you know. 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.380 And so I think it got to some people a little 00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:29.190 bit. Right. I think a little bit is an understatement 00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:33.170 from what you went through. Yeah, it is an understatement, 00:34:33.190 --> 00:34:36.110 certainly. It got to a lot of people a lot. And 00:34:36.110 --> 00:34:38.869 also, you know, to maintain the chaos, you know, 00:34:38.869 --> 00:34:41.590 we had more arms and ammunition than anything 00:34:41.590 --> 00:34:44.130 else in the country at some point. So obviously 00:34:44.130 --> 00:34:47.349 that explains what then happens, you know. Yeah, 00:34:47.389 --> 00:34:49.050 a lot of traumatized people, a lot of people 00:34:49.050 --> 00:34:50.710 who are not professional soldiers who don't really 00:34:50.710 --> 00:34:52.769 know what to do with it. So basically they used 00:34:52.769 --> 00:34:55.920 it to get. Whatever limited resources were available. 00:34:56.119 --> 00:34:58.900 So you can a big fight even for for that right 00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:01.619 now That's a good question. Where where were 00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:04.539 the weapons coming from? All they're coming from 00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:06.500 from everywhere. Remember, you know when I came 00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:08.539 out of the war I remember I was University in 00:35:08.539 --> 00:35:12.679 the United States and I was studying No political 00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:16.079 science and there was a huge discussion in my 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.639 classroom about Yeah, where are these weapons 00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:20.780 that fear the civil wars that are coming from 00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:23.940 China? China was there. And I was just sitting 00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:26.360 in the classroom and I was smiling because nobody 00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:30.340 knew about my background. And I probably was 00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:32.719 the only person in the room that actually, not 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:34.840 based on research, I've actually been in the 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:36.619 field and seen where these weapons were coming 00:35:36.619 --> 00:35:39.320 from. Obviously, I had no way of telling anybody. 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:41.579 That meant I had to talk about myself. So I just 00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:44.789 laughed. you know yes the weapons do come from 00:35:44.789 --> 00:35:47.570 china uh the weapons also come from the cold 00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:51.250 war and soviet union and things like that the 00:35:51.250 --> 00:35:53.949 weapons also do come from israel the weapons 00:35:53.949 --> 00:35:56.409 come from the united states the weapons come 00:35:56.409 --> 00:35:59.570 from germany uh they come from everywhere basically 00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:02.110 everybody's selling weapons into these wars you 00:36:02.110 --> 00:36:09.050 know um so we had m16s we had uh g4s we had um 00:36:10.610 --> 00:36:13.329 AK -47s of different brands, machine guns, Israeli 00:36:13.329 --> 00:36:15.289 Uzis, you name it. Everything was there because 00:36:15.289 --> 00:36:17.449 it was an open market. The border was porous. 00:36:17.510 --> 00:36:19.170 So anybody who could bring in arms and ammunition, 00:36:19.449 --> 00:36:23.889 you would get hard -cut diamonds and take them 00:36:23.889 --> 00:36:26.750 out in boxes. So basically people were making 00:36:26.750 --> 00:36:29.590 tremendous profit. So they came from all over 00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:34.170 the world. And we had mercenary groups coming 00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:36.630 to help fight with this group or that group. 00:36:36.750 --> 00:36:39.460 So it was basically everybody wanted to... have 00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:41.099 a piece of the pie so weapons were coming from 00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:43.260 everywhere and everybody was willing to sell 00:36:43.260 --> 00:36:48.639 them um and that's the nature of what feel these 00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:52.360 sorts of things even more so um and because really 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:54.800 we don't really produce weapons we don't even 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:57.840 not even partly we don't even assemble them and 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.219 all of a sudden there was so much it was easier 00:37:00.219 --> 00:37:01.940 at the time during the war in syria it was easier 00:37:01.940 --> 00:37:05.460 to to buy an ak -47 than to buy chicken or to 00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:08.449 buy a bag of rice You could easily find NK -47 00:37:08.449 --> 00:37:10.030 around the corner. In fact, you don't even have 00:37:10.030 --> 00:37:11.710 to find one. If you went in the forest, went 00:37:11.710 --> 00:37:13.769 around, you probably would see a few dead soldiers 00:37:13.769 --> 00:37:16.289 and you pick up a few rifles from their bodies, 00:37:16.389 --> 00:37:19.269 you know, some ammunition, and you basically 00:37:19.269 --> 00:37:22.809 can defend yourself if you know how to shoot 00:37:22.809 --> 00:37:27.050 properly. So that's basically what became. So 00:37:27.050 --> 00:37:29.349 now if you do the math, you realize that, you 00:37:29.349 --> 00:37:32.409 know, there are people definitely bringing it 00:37:32.409 --> 00:37:35.170 in through Liberia and also landing at our airport. 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.099 and then leaving nobody knowing whether they 00:37:39.099 --> 00:37:40.559 were in the country or not. So they were coming 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:44.280 from everywhere. Yeah, yeah. I just want to highlight 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:47.440 that. I think it's disgusting. There was that 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:51.199 whole blood diamond kind of catchphrase keyword 00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:54.460 thing a while ago, but I mean, here we are having 00:37:54.460 --> 00:37:57.639 this conversation and you are someone whose family 00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:00.460 was literally killed and the form of payment 00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:02.780 for those weapons were the diamonds that I'm 00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:04.219 sure people around this country are wearing. 00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:08.059 Absolutely. A lot of people will say, well, it's 00:38:08.059 --> 00:38:10.239 business. But yes, I always say to those people, 00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:12.719 yeah, you can still do business and make profit 00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:14.679 out of it. It doesn't have to cost human life 00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:20.300 to that extent. Yeah, exactly. You can give weapons 00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:22.760 to armies if they are defending their people 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:26.440 or they are protecting people. I can see that. 00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:28.900 But when you go into a place where there's literally 00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:31.860 genocide going on and you decide to arm everybody 00:38:31.860 --> 00:38:34.019 who's part of that genocide and think it's just 00:38:34.019 --> 00:38:36.360 business. I don't really think so, you know? 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:40.000 Yeah, I agree 100%. I think it's disgusting. 00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.099 All right. Well, I want to move on to that then. 00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:48.780 So, you know, you were fleeing and just the courage 00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:51.260 and the strength that you and all the other boys 00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:54.699 and girls must have had to get through that and 00:38:54.699 --> 00:38:56.880 to clothe yourselves and feed yourself and find 00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.119 water that wasn't poisoned and, you know, all 00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:00.579 these other challenges that you must have had 00:39:00.579 --> 00:39:02.300 as well as obviously trying not to get killed 00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:05.960 at the same time. It just absolutely baffles 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:08.719 me. But I know obviously a big part of the book 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.119 is that you do get captured at one point. So 00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:14.579 can you tell me about that awful day and then 00:39:14.579 --> 00:39:19.000 the weeks following that? Well, as we had been 00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:21.860 running from this war, what kept us alive was 00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:24.360 this desire to find our families. And we ended 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.780 up finding out that the group that I was with. 00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:30.210 and that our families were in one village and 00:39:30.210 --> 00:39:32.670 everybody had managed to get there it was a safe 00:39:32.670 --> 00:39:35.269 village and we were very excited so we started 00:39:35.269 --> 00:39:38.869 going for it using our last bit of strength to 00:39:38.869 --> 00:39:42.170 get there closer to the village we saw we heard 00:39:42.170 --> 00:39:44.949 gunshots and you know people were shooting in 00:39:44.949 --> 00:39:47.510 the air we weren't sure whether it was an attack 00:39:47.510 --> 00:39:52.710 or what it was and we waited and hid in the bushes 00:39:52.710 --> 00:39:56.070 and when it was over we saw this massive fire 00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:58.500 so basically the whole place was being set on 00:39:58.500 --> 00:40:01.800 fire uh and we decided to go because we knew 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:03.320 what that meant at this point where survived 00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:05.320 so many what meant that whatever had happened 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.820 had concluded and they had left wherever they 00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:12.000 were um so we entered the village and basically 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.340 everybody had been killed in the village some 00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:16.619 people had been thrown in the fire people had 00:40:16.619 --> 00:40:20.039 been lined up and and shot basically at the back 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:21.619 of their head so basically they killed everybody 00:40:21.619 --> 00:40:24.039 in the town and this was the place where my family 00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:30.119 was so i went from one day uh hoping and to getting 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:32.639 caught in in touch with my family and find them 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:34.320 again and continue running from them from the 00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.760 war to find them all have been killed in this 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:38.699 village including all the some of the friends 00:40:38.699 --> 00:40:40.440 that i was with their families you know they 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:44.079 turn bodies around you see people And basically, 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.800 you know, I froze, basically, like I stopped 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:48.980 functioning, I think, emotionally. It was so 00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:52.519 shocking. And even my feet, I couldn't move for 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:56.440 quite a bit, basically. And I was very angry 00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:58.719 because I felt that it was because we had slowed 00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:01.260 down, we didn't make it in time. At this point, 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:04.380 I had come to really accept the fact that if 00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:06.719 at least I had entered the village earlier, even 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.980 if I had been killed there, along with my family, 00:41:10.059 --> 00:41:12.300 that would have been... a better option because 00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:16.019 the pain was just so severe to bear you know 00:41:16.019 --> 00:41:18.619 and some of the kids that i was with i don't 00:41:18.619 --> 00:41:21.239 know where they found the strength um decided 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:24.199 that we should move just in case some of these 00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:26.400 people who had done this dummy decided to return 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.340 we shouldn't be there you know and there was 00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:32.119 nothing we could do so we left and basically 00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:34.840 i was in a daze like i i couldn't believe that 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:38.460 i'd fallen into this kind of hell And so they 00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:40.880 basically pushed me along the way. And then we 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.960 went to a military base at this point thinking, 00:41:43.059 --> 00:41:45.219 you know, these guys said they were Sierra Leone 00:41:45.219 --> 00:41:48.340 military. If we went there, we'd be safe. We 00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:50.260 had nothing anymore. We knew we couldn't go back 00:41:50.260 --> 00:41:52.019 home anymore. We didn't have any more families. 00:41:52.780 --> 00:41:55.119 So we went to this village in Fulia. It's a place 00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:59.420 called Fulia. And basically in this village, 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:03.219 it was basically where lots of other young people 00:42:03.219 --> 00:42:05.199 had made similar decisions and what lost family 00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:09.150 had come there. And it was the... the Sierra 00:42:09.150 --> 00:42:11.449 Leone army that was there. We didn't know at 00:42:11.449 --> 00:42:13.670 the time that it was a part of the army that 00:42:13.670 --> 00:42:16.369 had broken from the central command. They were 00:42:16.369 --> 00:42:19.269 basically doing whatever they wanted. So we stayed 00:42:19.269 --> 00:42:23.309 in the village and we helped out to cook, pot 00:42:23.309 --> 00:42:27.070 vegetables, fetch water for the soldiers. And 00:42:27.070 --> 00:42:28.909 so basically we thought, okay, maybe this is 00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:30.750 where we'll stay because we're safe for now. 00:42:31.610 --> 00:42:35.039 But that changed. very shortly. They basically 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.219 gave the ultimatum, you know, if you lived in 00:42:37.219 --> 00:42:40.360 this village and you were able -bodied, that 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:42.579 you needed to be trained to fight, otherwise 00:42:42.579 --> 00:42:46.159 you had to leave. But that was not an option, 00:42:46.219 --> 00:42:50.159 actually. It seemed like an option. If you decided 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:54.380 to leave, which they showed a lot of examples 00:42:54.380 --> 00:42:57.639 of, if you decided to leave, they would basically 00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.820 shoot you. and then they would bring the body 00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:02.699 back in town to shoot, and then they would tell 00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:04.179 people, you see, this is what happened when you 00:43:04.179 --> 00:43:05.820 tried to leave. There are other guys over there 00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:08.159 trying to kill everybody. But everybody knew 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:09.960 that wasn't the case. So basically you couldn't 00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:15.159 leave. So at this point I was 13, and, you know, 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:18.039 basically they decided to train us. There were 00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:21.420 other kids who were younger than me. They decided 00:43:21.420 --> 00:43:23.280 to train us to be soldiers. We didn't believe 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.460 that they were really doing that because we were 00:43:25.460 --> 00:43:28.420 so small. What possibly were we going to be able 00:43:28.420 --> 00:43:31.739 to do? But they knew exactly what they were doing. 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:34.019 I mean, we didn't receive massive training, as 00:43:34.019 --> 00:43:37.019 in soldiers who trained for years. We were training 00:43:37.019 --> 00:43:38.900 in the middle of war, so you knew you were going 00:43:38.900 --> 00:43:42.000 to fight very shortly. About a week of training, 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.099 which was not much training, we basically knew 00:43:45.099 --> 00:43:51.500 how to shoot a basic weapon and how to change 00:43:51.500 --> 00:43:54.760 the magazine, how to clean it a little bit and 00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:58.219 to put it back together. and then how to adhere 00:43:58.219 --> 00:44:01.280 to certain commands, how to make an ambush. And 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.219 then basically we went to war after that. And 00:44:03.219 --> 00:44:04.719 so basically everything you've learned, you went 00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:06.519 to test it out, and some people did not come 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:09.639 back. So basically that was how my life became 00:44:09.639 --> 00:44:12.219 a kid running from this madness, from this war 00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:14.880 that I'd seen, now to being part of it, really. 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:21.219 In the book you're talking about how the tactics 00:44:21.219 --> 00:44:26.139 they use to desensitize the kids as well. Yes, 00:44:26.260 --> 00:44:28.059 in the beginning, first there was coercion, right? 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:31.860 They made you stay. And then there was a lot 00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:35.159 of rhetoric about revenge. And this worked for 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.380 everybody because everybody was there had lost 00:44:37.380 --> 00:44:38.739 their family. So they say, you know, if you're 00:44:38.739 --> 00:44:40.320 part of this group, we'll find those guys and 00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:45.000 make them pay. And also make sure that this doesn't 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:48.059 happen to other children like you. Everybody 00:44:48.059 --> 00:44:49.940 adhered to that. Everybody thought, okay, this 00:44:49.940 --> 00:44:52.079 is a good reason. Of course, we wanted some justice. 00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:58.769 And then there was also... this sort of, they 00:44:58.769 --> 00:45:02.369 gave you a little bit of drugs, you know, amphetamines 00:45:02.369 --> 00:45:06.170 here and there. We watched Rambo films, Commando 00:45:06.170 --> 00:45:10.429 films, so people got into this world of who this 00:45:10.429 --> 00:45:14.329 violence was, how sensational things were. And 00:45:14.329 --> 00:45:17.030 basically they also made you visualize things, 00:45:17.190 --> 00:45:20.150 you know. They would explain different ways how 00:45:20.150 --> 00:45:22.469 people's families had been mutilated, and then 00:45:22.469 --> 00:45:25.159 they made you visualize. uh somebody who was 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:27.000 responsible for it and kill them so basically 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:29.699 they brought prisoners that were alive when they 00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:32.860 caught them during war and it wasn't for to hold 00:45:32.860 --> 00:45:34.739 them or anything it was basically for practice 00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:36.400 so they will give you a bayonet and they will 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:39.039 say i will kill this prisoner and they'll put 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:40.599 images in your head this is what they did to 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:42.719 your family and then you basically so there was 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:45.860 this game where that we played uh whoever could 00:45:45.860 --> 00:45:47.880 kill somebody very quickly with a bayonet without 00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:50.559 shooting them but you can do it quickly and of 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:52.329 course the commanders will do a demonstration, 00:45:52.610 --> 00:45:54.230 and then everybody will be lined up, and then 00:45:54.230 --> 00:45:56.610 we'll have to do these things, you know. And 00:45:56.610 --> 00:45:59.150 you'll be surprised how quickly you get adjusted 00:45:59.150 --> 00:46:01.949 to a given situation as a child. You know, this 00:46:01.949 --> 00:46:04.969 became our world. We realized very quickly if 00:46:04.969 --> 00:46:06.769 you wanted to survive in it, you had to embrace 00:46:06.769 --> 00:46:09.010 it fully. There was no other option. Otherwise, 00:46:09.150 --> 00:46:11.550 you would die just emotionally, you know. So 00:46:11.550 --> 00:46:14.429 I adjusted very quickly because I knew this was 00:46:14.429 --> 00:46:17.010 the only way to live because I had nowhere to 00:46:17.010 --> 00:46:19.650 go. And the Army slowly became our family, you 00:46:19.650 --> 00:46:23.059 know. It became our new family. We fought for 00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:25.219 each other. The kids were part of it. We wanted 00:46:25.219 --> 00:46:28.440 to keep each other alive. And I remember the 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:30.320 first day I went to war, you know, I really, 00:46:30.380 --> 00:46:32.820 the whole time I was thinking to myself, I don't 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:35.179 believe this is possible. But there we were, 00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:37.920 in ambush, and we saw other people who looked 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:43.030 just like us. Kids and adults. started people 00:46:43.030 --> 00:46:44.789 started to exchange fire i couldn't shoot for 00:46:44.789 --> 00:46:46.949 a while but then everybody was laying next to 00:46:46.949 --> 00:46:48.889 me was being shot and killed and their blood 00:46:48.889 --> 00:46:50.530 was all over the place where you know i started 00:46:50.530 --> 00:46:52.489 shooting realizing that you know if i don't shoot 00:46:52.489 --> 00:46:55.909 i'm going to end up like them basically i was 00:46:55.909 --> 00:46:59.889 the the end of my childhood in many ways you 00:46:59.889 --> 00:47:03.809 know yeah and again this what you've just said 00:47:03.809 --> 00:47:06.489 resonates the same way as you hear a lot of soldiers 00:47:06.489 --> 00:47:08.309 from different conflicts that i've had on here 00:47:08.309 --> 00:47:13.039 where the reasons left back in wherever they 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.719 were made as far as why the war was starting. 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:20.000 But by that point, it's preservation. You've 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:22.420 got this army ahead of you that's trying to kill 00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:24.760 you, and you're basically trying to kill them. 00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.519 So it doesn't matter what the initial reason 00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:29.820 was for the men and women on the front line there. 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:32.639 You only have one choice, which is to try and 00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:34.000 protect yourself and make it through whatever 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.630 conflict you're in. Absolutely. It's either kill 00:47:37.630 --> 00:47:38.969 or be killed. I think that's what people don't 00:47:38.969 --> 00:47:41.070 understand about war. You know, like people who 00:47:41.070 --> 00:47:43.849 haven't been in that situation, they always think 00:47:43.849 --> 00:47:46.090 that you can make these moral and ethical choices 00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:47.670 while you're standing there, right? Somebody 00:47:47.670 --> 00:47:50.090 else is shooting at you. You cannot say, hey, 00:47:50.110 --> 00:47:51.730 you know, I'm a really nice guy from California. 00:47:51.909 --> 00:47:53.650 Let's talk about it, brother. I'm a hippie, you 00:47:53.650 --> 00:47:55.869 know. That's not going to work. That's not going 00:47:55.869 --> 00:47:58.550 to work, you know. If you want to get back home, 00:47:58.630 --> 00:48:00.230 that's not going to work. You know what I mean? 00:48:00.289 --> 00:48:03.630 So you basically have to shoot. So in war, you 00:48:03.630 --> 00:48:07.480 know, you can't. discuss that sort of humanity 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.460 there's very little space for it you know if 00:48:10.460 --> 00:48:13.940 any at all if any at all you know and you know 00:48:13.940 --> 00:48:16.079 and if you want to come back to your family you 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:18.000 know they always upset you know when i started 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.500 living in the united states you know and i'd 00:48:20.500 --> 00:48:21.980 come from this world most people didn't know 00:48:21.980 --> 00:48:24.559 and i went to certain very liberal arts schools 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:28.780 you know with a lot of very privileged um american 00:48:28.780 --> 00:48:31.260 kids and you know granted that's good to be privileged 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:33.679 But what was really upsetting to me all the time 00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:35.760 is how sometimes when there was a war, for example, 00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:38.059 in Afghanistan and things like that, and soldiers 00:48:38.059 --> 00:48:40.079 would come back and how people would shout at 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.239 them and throw things at them. And I always said 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:45.920 to my friends, you don't know what's going on. 00:48:46.539 --> 00:48:48.980 This soldier didn't make that policy. If he went 00:48:48.980 --> 00:48:50.659 to fight and he wanted to come back to his family, 00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.599 he had to do what he needed to do. There was 00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:56.760 nothing he could do about it. He's not going 00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:58.840 to go and represent your moral and ethical cause 00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:00.559 in the United States when somebody's shooting 00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:05.179 at him. He can't make that decision. The decision 00:49:05.179 --> 00:49:07.000 has already been made for when he's there out 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:10.400 on the field. And for you to function in a battlefield, 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.059 you have to reach that point where you dehumanize 00:49:13.059 --> 00:49:16.519 other people. Otherwise, you can't live. And 00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:18.659 so I always try to explain to some friends who 00:49:18.659 --> 00:49:19.980 didn't know my background at the time, and they 00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.940 looked at me like I was this strange. And I don't 00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:24.119 know, don't protest against the soldiers. If 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:25.940 you have to protest, protest against something 00:49:25.940 --> 00:49:31.900 else, not against the person who's there. But 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:34.000 it comes from a lack of understanding, you know, 00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:40.000 of what's going on in these places. Yeah, exactly. 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.320 And that's such an amazing insight that you have. 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.179 But there's so many parallels, whether it's you, 00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:49.800 which was such an extreme example. You didn't 00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.480 go to a recruitment office and sign up. You know, 00:49:52.500 --> 00:49:54.320 there you are. Your whole family was murdered. 00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:57.099 You're put on drugs. You're forced to, you know, 00:49:57.099 --> 00:49:59.599 forced to kill. You're given these images of 00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:02.579 revenge. I mean, like you said, everything that 00:50:02.579 --> 00:50:05.019 you had when we were talking in the beginning, 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:08.500 your entire life is basically dust now. You know, 00:50:08.500 --> 00:50:10.780 it disappeared and all you had was your own survival. 00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:13.420 Absolutely. And you've got this opposing force 00:50:13.420 --> 00:50:15.320 trying to take that very last thing you have, 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:18.079 which is your life. So to question that, I mean, 00:50:18.099 --> 00:50:20.400 you, of course, question it, but to not be able 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.869 to understand. you know, why you were doing what 00:50:23.869 --> 00:50:26.309 you were doing at the time is, you know, is, 00:50:26.409 --> 00:50:31.469 is, uh, you have to comprehend the backstory 00:50:31.469 --> 00:50:34.989 to really understand, you know, why the boy soldiers 00:50:34.989 --> 00:50:36.929 of either side were there and doing what they 00:50:36.929 --> 00:50:39.869 were doing. Absolutely. You know, I mean, I think, 00:50:39.909 --> 00:50:42.710 you know, as you said, when people don't understand 00:50:42.710 --> 00:50:44.650 the context of it, maybe it's easy to judge, 00:50:44.710 --> 00:50:47.070 you know, and to think that people just embrace 00:50:47.070 --> 00:50:49.309 violence. Nobody wakes up one day and just decide. 00:50:50.349 --> 00:50:52.510 to just embrace violence. I mean, maybe there 00:50:52.510 --> 00:50:55.130 are a few people who are just evil like that, 00:50:55.210 --> 00:50:58.809 but on that massive scale in a country where 00:50:58.809 --> 00:51:01.650 most young people were soldiers, I don't think 00:51:01.650 --> 00:51:03.130 they all woke up one morning and said, you know 00:51:03.130 --> 00:51:04.889 what, we should all just be soldiers and mess 00:51:04.889 --> 00:51:09.150 things up. Yeah, exactly. There are things that 00:51:09.150 --> 00:51:13.369 led to it. And often when you come out, sometimes 00:51:13.369 --> 00:51:16.289 people don't understand that, but also I understand 00:51:16.289 --> 00:51:18.250 the other side of it, particularly in my country. 00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:20.840 You know, people who had suffered at the hands 00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:23.699 of some of what we have done at the time were 00:51:23.699 --> 00:51:25.699 so angry. They didn't have the capacity to see 00:51:25.699 --> 00:51:29.699 beyond, you know, what we were, you know, to 00:51:29.699 --> 00:51:31.500 see the context of what our lives were. So I 00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:34.360 understand that hurt as well. That hurt had been 00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:37.400 manipulated when I had one and I embraced the 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:39.960 violence fully. So I knew where they were coming 00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.719 from as well, you know. Yeah, which is just a 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.300 horrible place to be from either side. Absolutely. 00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:47.900 So what I want to do, I don't want to dwell on 00:51:47.900 --> 00:51:50.579 your time, you know, actually fighting the war 00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:53.079 because I think the beauty is obviously after 00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:56.920 that. So if we can, firstly, how many years were 00:51:56.920 --> 00:52:00.500 you actually there before you were moved to the 00:52:00.500 --> 00:52:04.719 camp in Freetown? I was there for nearly close 00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:06.659 to three years, you know, two and a half plus 00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:09.139 years, you know. So basically from when I was 00:52:09.139 --> 00:52:11.579 13 all the way to when I was about 16, I was 00:52:11.579 --> 00:52:14.699 in this war. And so you can imagine a civil war 00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:17.500 context is basically every day is fighting. Every 00:52:17.500 --> 00:52:19.880 day. Every single day is ambush. You know, you 00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:23.099 fight for territory. You move around when the 00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:25.699 rains come. You move from one place to another, 00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:27.820 you know. So basically, and we're walking, you 00:52:27.820 --> 00:52:30.300 know. This type of guerrilla warfare, we didn't 00:52:30.300 --> 00:52:32.699 have vehicles we can jump in and drive. We walked. 00:52:33.710 --> 00:52:36.530 all the time. We ran and did things. So it was 00:52:36.530 --> 00:52:38.309 very, very physically, it was very challenging. 00:52:39.210 --> 00:52:41.650 So I was in this madness. I'd gotten completely 00:52:41.650 --> 00:52:44.889 accustomed to violence. That's all I knew. I 00:52:44.889 --> 00:52:46.989 didn't fear anything because I didn't really 00:52:46.989 --> 00:52:49.670 care for my life anymore. And then one day I 00:52:49.670 --> 00:52:52.469 was removed from this war because the United 00:52:52.469 --> 00:52:57.309 Nations, particularly UNICEF did. spoken to whatever 00:52:57.309 --> 00:52:59.469 the existing government in Sierra Leone was at 00:52:59.469 --> 00:53:01.230 the time that they needed to remove all the young 00:53:01.230 --> 00:53:03.349 people from the fighting if there was going to 00:53:03.349 --> 00:53:06.550 be an end to the war. And they needed to start 00:53:06.550 --> 00:53:09.349 that process. And so they would come into some 00:53:09.349 --> 00:53:11.989 of the various fighting groups and talk to the 00:53:11.989 --> 00:53:15.230 commanding officer and try to remove the children 00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:18.250 from the ranks. And so we basically lined up 00:53:18.250 --> 00:53:20.210 and I was removed. I believe I was removed because 00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:22.289 I looked more like a child. There was no denying 00:53:22.289 --> 00:53:24.449 it, you know. There are some kids who are my 00:53:24.449 --> 00:53:26.929 age, but maybe they were bigger kids, you know. 00:53:26.949 --> 00:53:29.070 They were more muscular, and they had to verify 00:53:29.070 --> 00:53:32.190 their ages and whatnot. And I was brought to 00:53:32.190 --> 00:53:34.489 a rehabilitation center in the capital city of 00:53:34.489 --> 00:53:35.949 my country, in the outside. So it was the first 00:53:35.949 --> 00:53:37.769 time I came to the capital city of my country. 00:53:38.090 --> 00:53:40.530 I fought in the war for it, but I'd never been 00:53:40.530 --> 00:53:43.409 to the capital city. And then I started going 00:53:43.409 --> 00:53:45.409 through this transformation, a rehabilitation, 00:53:45.789 --> 00:53:49.849 a psychological rehabilitation, psychosocial 00:53:49.849 --> 00:53:51.909 therapy, and all these things to recover. And 00:53:51.909 --> 00:53:54.320 that was... That was the most difficult time 00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:57.619 for me, actually. Perhaps more so than the war, 00:53:57.739 --> 00:53:59.820 because I had to remember everything again. And 00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:02.420 this time I couldn't take the drugs. I couldn't, 00:54:02.420 --> 00:54:04.920 you know, use the violence and the trauma to 00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:06.880 cope with it. I was basically left to really 00:54:06.880 --> 00:54:09.940 face it. And that, you know, when you come out 00:54:09.940 --> 00:54:13.559 of war, I think your mind becomes your new enemy, 00:54:13.739 --> 00:54:16.920 you know. And it can torment you tremendously, 00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:21.010 you know. So what was it within... that rehabilitation 00:54:21.010 --> 00:54:25.610 period that worked, that got you from this day 00:54:25.610 --> 00:54:29.170 -to -day, you know, war -torn soldier through 00:54:29.170 --> 00:54:32.550 to being able to transition to a place where 00:54:32.550 --> 00:54:35.090 peace was an everyday thing? Well, first, it 00:54:35.090 --> 00:54:36.670 was the fact that there was a center like this 00:54:36.670 --> 00:54:40.710 available, you know, to start with. And the fact 00:54:40.710 --> 00:54:43.449 that the time that I had there, you know, I had 00:54:43.449 --> 00:54:47.070 about six months just at this center trying to 00:54:47.070 --> 00:54:49.579 recover. And also the staff who worked at the 00:54:49.579 --> 00:54:51.659 center were incredible. You know, like when we 00:54:51.659 --> 00:54:53.420 got there, we didn't, of course, we attacked 00:54:53.420 --> 00:54:57.079 them. We hurt people in different ways. But there 00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:59.820 was always something about them that, you know, 00:54:59.820 --> 00:55:01.539 even though they didn't say that, and sometimes 00:55:01.539 --> 00:55:02.900 they would say it's not your fault, but there 00:55:02.900 --> 00:55:04.559 was also something also the way they looked at 00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.119 you that they saw you just as a child. Regardless 00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:09.099 of what you've done and what you've been through, 00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:11.679 they saw you as a child. And some of them even 00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:15.000 saw you as a child that they had failed to help, 00:55:15.099 --> 00:55:17.650 you know. That's why you find yourself in this 00:55:17.650 --> 00:55:20.170 situation. And somehow that did something to 00:55:20.170 --> 00:55:24.150 us slowly. There was one particular nurse who 00:55:24.150 --> 00:55:25.949 worked at the center that I became very close 00:55:25.949 --> 00:55:28.809 to. And that's how I began to change. I began 00:55:28.809 --> 00:55:30.530 to realize that things about me were changing. 00:55:30.530 --> 00:55:33.230 When I looked, I expected certain things. Prior 00:55:33.230 --> 00:55:35.449 to that, I didn't have any expectations. I didn't 00:55:35.449 --> 00:55:38.090 even believe in the possibility of the next day 00:55:38.090 --> 00:55:40.909 or anything like that. So slowly, with a lot 00:55:40.909 --> 00:55:43.289 of psychosocial therapy, some medicines used 00:55:43.289 --> 00:55:46.510 to even help me to sleep. and constant counseling 00:55:46.510 --> 00:55:49.570 group counseling we went to school at the center 00:55:49.570 --> 00:55:52.230 we played football i began to get back to myself 00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:55.829 again slowly slowly okay and i heard you in uh 00:55:55.829 --> 00:55:58.510 i think i forget which one it was now but uh 00:55:58.510 --> 00:56:00.389 one of the other interviews that i i heard you 00:56:00.389 --> 00:56:03.789 on a while ago um a big thing was and you mentioned 00:56:03.789 --> 00:56:07.429 this for a second was being able to understand 00:56:07.429 --> 00:56:09.909 that it wasn't your fault and not blame yourself 00:56:09.909 --> 00:56:13.000 for for this journey that you've been on Yes, 00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:15.039 absolutely. I mean, in the beginning, when the 00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:17.340 nurses would say it and the therapists, you didn't 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:19.079 really believe them. You thought, okay, they're 00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:22.400 just saying that. Well, slowly you began to understand 00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:24.519 what they were saying. That doesn't mean that 00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:28.679 I believed them at that time, but I think it 00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:32.380 made it easier to think about. what you had been 00:56:32.380 --> 00:56:34.820 a part of and to look at it differently you know 00:56:34.820 --> 00:56:36.980 now when you come when i came out of this there's 00:56:36.980 --> 00:56:38.880 a lot of guilt guilt for surviving the other 00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.059 kids who fought just like me were trained like 00:56:41.059 --> 00:56:45.199 me and they didn't survive there were kids that 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:48.619 couldn't come to rehabilitation I didn't come 00:56:48.619 --> 00:56:50.559 through easily, but it took them much longer. 00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:52.480 And during that time, maybe they found themselves 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:54.460 back in the army again, and then they got killed. 00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:57.019 So you felt guilty because of that. I even felt 00:56:57.019 --> 00:56:58.880 guilty to the fact that I was adopted in a family 00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:00.719 in the United States where I went to live and 00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:03.219 to go to school, to the point that I used to 00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:05.920 not eat for a few days just to, because I knew 00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:07.239 there were people who were still going through 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:09.199 what I've come out of, you know? So there's guilt 00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.079 on every level when you come out of it. But, 00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:14.239 you know, and then slowly, that always rang in 00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:16.019 my head. Remember that it's not your fault. I 00:57:16.019 --> 00:57:18.590 can't punish myself for... I didn't start the 00:57:18.590 --> 00:57:21.789 war in Sierra Leone. So, yeah, I couldn't really 00:57:21.789 --> 00:57:24.130 hold myself for the rest of my life accountable 00:57:24.130 --> 00:57:28.429 because I was in it, you know. But it requires 00:57:28.429 --> 00:57:30.869 some very skillful people to put that into my 00:57:30.869 --> 00:57:33.969 head, you know, and for me to understand it slowly. 00:57:34.710 --> 00:57:38.409 Yeah. The people I've had on the show so far 00:57:38.409 --> 00:57:42.210 and the, not the research, but the work that 00:57:42.210 --> 00:57:45.250 I've been lucky enough to read and learn from. 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:48.260 you pretty much had every level of trauma that 00:57:48.260 --> 00:57:50.199 you can have as well when it comes to mental 00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:53.320 health i mean you were forced to kill you lost 00:57:53.320 --> 00:57:55.960 your family you had the the drugs i'm sure there 00:57:55.960 --> 00:57:58.059 was sleep deprivation i mean all these layers 00:57:58.059 --> 00:58:03.099 so what i love about your story is um and we 00:58:03.099 --> 00:58:04.579 talked about i think i mentioned it when we went 00:58:04.579 --> 00:58:06.519 back and forth on twitter when we first started 00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:10.579 talking is your story is what i use as a benchmark 00:58:10.579 --> 00:58:14.039 when i ever hear anyone throwing themselves what 00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:16.840 we call a pity party you know feeling sorry for 00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:20.079 himself because and i genuinely i'm not saying 00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:21.199 this because we're just having this conversation 00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:23.820 since my little boy who's now 10 which is why 00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:25.760 this story resonates so deeply with me because 00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:29.219 his age now is pretty much your last year you 00:58:29.219 --> 00:58:33.539 know of innocence as it were um is how i've raised 00:58:33.539 --> 00:58:35.539 my son because i've had divorce and some very 00:58:35.539 --> 00:58:38.800 minor minor things but in the grand scale of 00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:41.760 what Boys just like yourself are suffering in 00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:45.659 all continents at the moment. We are so blessed. 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:47.559 And I grew up in England now. I live in the US. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:51.340 So, so blessed. And stories like yours where 00:58:51.340 --> 00:58:56.199 you were make me so grateful for what I've been 00:58:56.199 --> 00:58:59.179 born into. But then stories of where you took 00:58:59.179 --> 00:59:02.599 yourself and who you are now makes me admire 00:59:02.599 --> 00:59:06.039 so much and shows me that you can heal from anything 00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:09.829 if you have that willing to do it. Yeah, absolutely. 00:59:10.090 --> 00:59:11.590 I mean, I think part of the reason why I wanted 00:59:11.590 --> 00:59:13.329 to tell the story was because of that. You know, 00:59:13.349 --> 00:59:17.210 I wanted people to understand how a child finds 00:59:17.210 --> 00:59:19.110 themselves in this situation, but also how they 00:59:19.110 --> 00:59:21.530 can come out. You know, I really wanted people 00:59:21.530 --> 00:59:23.469 to understand that the human spirit, all of us 00:59:23.469 --> 00:59:27.449 have that strength within us. And when we're 00:59:27.449 --> 00:59:29.809 ready to do it and when we have the right support, 00:59:29.989 --> 00:59:32.659 it can actually work that we shouldn't. give 00:59:32.659 --> 00:59:35.039 up on people you know but also i wanted people 00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:37.179 to to appreciate what they have you know i remember 00:59:37.179 --> 00:59:40.360 when i was in school uh you know i had a scholarship 00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:43.639 in a school in the u .s and um for high school 00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:46.159 and a lot of my friends will complain about a 00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:48.039 lot of things and granted if i grew up in the 00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:49.800 context i'm sure i'll complain about the same 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:54.030 things you know um but you know But then when 00:59:54.030 --> 00:59:55.710 you try to look at them, you know, if you look 00:59:55.710 --> 00:59:57.530 at it, like she said, in the grand scheme of 00:59:57.530 --> 00:59:59.110 what's going on in the world, there's really 00:59:59.110 --> 01:00:00.670 nothing that they should have been complaining 01:00:00.670 --> 01:00:02.610 about. But it's because there was nothing to 01:00:02.610 --> 01:00:05.789 really look at for them to appreciate what it 01:00:05.789 --> 01:00:08.570 meant, you know, to have peace in their lives 01:00:08.570 --> 01:00:11.940 too. to have parents who annoyed them just because 01:00:11.940 --> 01:00:14.039 they were checking on them you know yeah which 01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:16.900 is love yeah which is love yeah i used to tell 01:00:16.900 --> 01:00:18.619 my friends they didn't know anything i was like 01:00:18.619 --> 01:00:20.539 you know you guys don't understand that there 01:00:20.539 --> 01:00:21.880 are lots of people in the world who would do 01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:23.699 anything to have a parent who wants to know where 01:00:23.699 --> 01:00:25.760 they are at eight o 'clock p .m and annoy the 01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:27.920 hell out of them because they want to know where 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:30.820 they are you know yeah exactly absolutely right 01:00:30.820 --> 01:00:33.840 who would do anything to have that you know so 01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:35.820 when you have it and you think it's a problem 01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:38.679 you know you really should Relax a little bit, 01:00:38.699 --> 01:00:41.500 you know, about it, you know. But obviously, 01:00:41.579 --> 01:00:43.760 I didn't know my background, so I wasn't going 01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:46.320 to, I don't know, maybe they just thought this 01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:49.519 guy is just a strange fellow, you know. Well, 01:00:49.539 --> 01:00:52.119 I love that and I want to get to that next because 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:54.019 there's a story and I'll get you just to kind 01:00:54.019 --> 01:00:56.840 of complete the transition from Freetown to New 01:00:56.840 --> 01:00:59.119 York. But after that, there's a specific story 01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:02.539 that I heard you talk or tell on The Moth. And 01:01:02.539 --> 01:01:04.699 I don't normally like to try and, you know, get 01:01:04.699 --> 01:01:07.699 the same stories over and over again. I'm sure 01:01:07.699 --> 01:01:10.179 you know which one it is, but that to me is such 01:01:10.179 --> 01:01:11.980 a poignant story. So before we kind of delve 01:01:11.980 --> 01:01:15.619 into that, so you were at Freetown, you completed 01:01:15.619 --> 01:01:19.840 the rehabilitation. So how did you get from Sierra 01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:23.280 Leone to the US? So I was in Freetown. So when 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:25.039 you are at the rehabilitation center, they do 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:27.300 what they call family tracing. They try to find 01:01:27.300 --> 01:01:29.440 if there's any existing family member of yours 01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:32.420 alive. And they first start by digging up your 01:01:32.420 --> 01:01:35.739 immediate family if nobody could be found. And 01:01:35.739 --> 01:01:37.719 it's a small country, so people alive would find 01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:41.440 them easily. And then they would look for extended 01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:44.780 family. They would start with uncles and aunts. 01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:46.539 So they found my uncle who lived in the capital 01:01:46.539 --> 01:01:49.360 city, who I knew of but I'd never met. So I went 01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:51.960 to live with him and his family. And it was difficult 01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:53.900 because the capital city hadn't experienced the 01:01:53.900 --> 01:01:56.800 war. So there was a lot of stigma associated 01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:00.409 with people like me coming from the war. So while 01:02:00.409 --> 01:02:02.730 I was living with my uncle, an opportunity came 01:02:02.730 --> 01:02:05.829 to send two young people to New York to speak 01:02:05.829 --> 01:02:07.929 at the United Nations about coming out of this 01:02:07.929 --> 01:02:11.090 experience as a way to showcase that what the 01:02:11.090 --> 01:02:13.670 United Nations was doing was working, that more 01:02:13.670 --> 01:02:17.309 of it needed to be done and funded. And so a 01:02:17.309 --> 01:02:18.809 lot of young people were brought from all over 01:02:18.809 --> 01:02:23.010 the world. There are kids from Colombia, from 01:02:23.010 --> 01:02:25.769 various other African countries, from Sri Lanka 01:02:25.769 --> 01:02:27.110 and different places. So we were all brought. 01:02:28.239 --> 01:02:31.280 Together it was my first time traveling outside 01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:34.460 of my country You know, I'd only been able to 01:02:34.460 --> 01:02:36.760 come to the capital city because of the war I 01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:39.739 didn't have anything so they helped me get a 01:02:39.739 --> 01:02:43.039 passport and I remember jumping on the plane 01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:44.900 and we arrived in New York. It was winter of 01:02:44.900 --> 01:02:51.409 1996 It was absolutely cold I didn't think I 01:02:51.409 --> 01:02:54.190 wanted to live in the United States. Absolutely 01:02:54.190 --> 01:02:56.230 not. Because I thought to myself, it's not possible 01:02:56.230 --> 01:02:58.150 that anybody can survive in this kind of climate. 01:02:58.650 --> 01:03:02.210 Where I was coming from, 60, 59 degrees is our 01:03:02.210 --> 01:03:04.349 winter. Like when it dropped to 58, this is when 01:03:04.349 --> 01:03:07.050 we were colder. And we sit around fire. And all 01:03:07.050 --> 01:03:09.030 of a sudden I was in this place, you know. And 01:03:09.030 --> 01:03:11.070 taking the plane was already an ordeal, you know. 01:03:11.070 --> 01:03:14.090 And then, you know, we get to this place. But 01:03:14.090 --> 01:03:16.289 during this conference, you know, I met this 01:03:16.289 --> 01:03:18.789 woman, Laura Sims, who was one of the facilitators. 01:03:19.369 --> 01:03:22.650 After the conference, we became friends. I went 01:03:22.650 --> 01:03:24.630 back to Sierra Leone, and she stayed in touch 01:03:24.630 --> 01:03:27.230 with me. She said, you need to go back to school. 01:03:27.349 --> 01:03:29.730 I will send you some money for school and whatnot. 01:03:30.769 --> 01:03:33.869 But then the capital city, when I returned, the 01:03:33.869 --> 01:03:36.829 capital city fell. The war reached and took over 01:03:36.829 --> 01:03:39.789 the entire city. At this point, the entire country. 01:03:40.110 --> 01:03:42.349 And they were re -recruiting people again and 01:03:42.349 --> 01:03:44.800 throwing them back into the fighting. And so 01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:47.039 because I had this passport and I knew this woman 01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:48.940 from Russia told me, you have to get out of there. 01:03:48.980 --> 01:03:53.400 You cannot stay there and fight again. And I 01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:54.980 didn't think I would survive. And during that 01:03:54.980 --> 01:03:58.219 time, my uncle died. So that was basically really 01:03:58.219 --> 01:04:00.780 like send a message home to me that you have 01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:02.400 to leave. So basically one day I just walked 01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:07.079 out of my country. Long story short, I ended 01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:09.440 up going to the next country illegally as a refugee. 01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:12.000 I went to other countries. And eventually I was 01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:14.079 able to get a visa to the United States, which 01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:16.099 was not easy because nobody wanted to give me 01:04:16.099 --> 01:04:20.840 one because of my background. And when I arrived 01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:22.619 in the United States, nobody wanted to take me 01:04:22.619 --> 01:04:24.400 to any school because I didn't have any records 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:26.059 to show that I'd been in school. I only entered 01:04:26.059 --> 01:04:28.519 the country with my passport, actually. And this 01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:30.559 woman who adopted me waiting to pick me up at 01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:34.719 the airport, and that was basically it. So the 01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:37.280 rest was a lot of struggle and proof to people 01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:39.519 that I'd existed prior to when they encountered 01:04:39.519 --> 01:04:42.900 me. And I didn't have any report cards, none 01:04:42.900 --> 01:04:44.559 of these things. I didn't have medical records. 01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:46.639 I remember they had to take me to everything 01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:52.960 to even get dental. I always found the whole 01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:54.539 situation quite funny. I would tell them, you 01:04:54.539 --> 01:04:55.900 know, I'm quite healthy. I mean, I've been running 01:04:55.900 --> 01:04:59.539 from a war for a number of years. Eating from 01:04:59.539 --> 01:05:01.639 the land. Eating from the land. I'm still around. 01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:04.039 You know, my teeth is fine. I didn't have money 01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:08.719 for candy or anything like that. that's the irony 01:05:08.719 --> 01:05:10.920 isn't it this poor boy soldier had better oral 01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:17.519 hygiene than the rest of us so um i laughed when 01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:19.300 you told this this next thing i'm gonna i'm gonna 01:05:19.300 --> 01:05:21.300 put it in in your brain now i came from from 01:05:21.300 --> 01:05:25.539 england and i i had my degree from england all 01:05:25.539 --> 01:05:29.019 my papers with my degree but it was it was long 01:05:29.019 --> 01:05:32.900 enough ago where my high school transcripts um 01:05:32.900 --> 01:05:36.000 i had misplaced them in all the moves And I was 01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.039 having a problem trying to replace them. But 01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:41.460 I had a degree. I had my university degree papers 01:05:41.460 --> 01:05:44.219 there. So my common sense thinks, well, that's 01:05:44.219 --> 01:05:45.920 not going to be a problem because they're just 01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:48.440 going to take my degree. I had a nightmare trying 01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:51.159 to prove that I went to school even though I 01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:55.119 had a university degree. But that pales in comparison 01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:57.420 to yours. So when you were interviewed by some 01:05:57.420 --> 01:05:59.679 of these high schools, because I just kind of 01:05:59.679 --> 01:06:02.510 want to... Preface this. So you had so many months 01:06:02.510 --> 01:06:04.670 to get into a school. Otherwise, you'd be sent 01:06:04.670 --> 01:06:07.909 back to Sierra Leone. Is that right? Yes, because 01:06:07.909 --> 01:06:09.730 the visa that I was given to me was a prospective 01:06:09.730 --> 01:06:11.750 student visa, which meant that I would come to 01:06:11.750 --> 01:06:13.929 the U .S. If I get accepted into school, then 01:06:13.929 --> 01:06:17.110 I would stay on. Otherwise, I would have to go 01:06:17.110 --> 01:06:20.449 back. So it was very important that I got accepted 01:06:20.449 --> 01:06:22.809 into school in the amount of time that the visa, 01:06:22.909 --> 01:06:25.409 which was three months. And it was in the summer. 01:06:25.510 --> 01:06:27.730 So that also made it quite difficult. So schools 01:06:27.730 --> 01:06:30.429 were closed. And some school administrators were 01:06:30.429 --> 01:06:33.030 around. So we went for interviews. And the first 01:06:33.030 --> 01:06:34.730 thing they asked, OK, let's see the school records. 01:06:34.889 --> 01:06:36.650 And we're like, well, there are no school records. 01:06:37.269 --> 01:06:38.809 And I remember someone saying, well, everybody 01:06:38.809 --> 01:06:40.349 has a school record. If you've been to school 01:06:40.349 --> 01:06:42.250 before, you should have a school record. And 01:06:42.250 --> 01:06:44.190 I remember saying, I know a lot of people who 01:06:44.190 --> 01:06:47.170 don't have school records. Even if they have 01:06:47.170 --> 01:06:50.030 been to school. So I remember making this joke, 01:06:50.050 --> 01:06:52.440 which I thought. Some of the school administrators 01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:55.539 didn't get it, and maybe they thought I was more 01:06:55.539 --> 01:06:57.920 traumatized than they thought. I said to them, 01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:00.920 I'm coming from a country that is still at war, 01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:04.739 and when your town is attacked, your village 01:07:04.739 --> 01:07:06.099 is attacked, and you're running for your life, 01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:07.840 I don't really think you're thinking about your 01:07:07.840 --> 01:07:10.699 school report card. And thinking to myself, well, 01:07:10.820 --> 01:07:12.880 I should find my report card. This is the most 01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:17.929 essential thing. You run for your life. And they 01:07:17.929 --> 01:07:19.889 didn't have the sense of humor, all of them almost. 01:07:20.030 --> 01:07:22.530 And they looked at me like, yeah, we can't really 01:07:22.530 --> 01:07:24.829 take you if you don't have a report card. So 01:07:24.829 --> 01:07:27.829 basically, yeah, I ended up writing an essay 01:07:27.829 --> 01:07:30.610 because everybody was demanding this. So I wrote 01:07:30.610 --> 01:07:32.650 this essay. It was my first piece of writing 01:07:32.650 --> 01:07:34.889 that I began to take quite seriously from that 01:07:34.889 --> 01:07:37.650 day on. And the essay was titled, Why I Do Not 01:07:37.650 --> 01:07:40.550 Have a Report Card. So in that essay, I explained 01:07:40.550 --> 01:07:43.469 where I was coming from and why I don't have 01:07:43.469 --> 01:07:47.380 one, but I know that I went to school. And that 01:07:47.380 --> 01:07:49.539 door where I'm living now, the measurement of 01:07:49.539 --> 01:07:51.659 how you can prove your honesty was through a 01:07:51.659 --> 01:07:54.420 paper. That paper does not exist. So is it that 01:07:54.420 --> 01:07:58.599 people believe me or not? Basically, there was 01:07:58.599 --> 01:08:01.159 no way I was going to go into the rubbles of 01:08:01.159 --> 01:08:03.159 a small village in Sierra Leone or some school 01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:06.300 and try to dig through it. It's not possible. 01:08:07.539 --> 01:08:12.809 So with this crazy notion of common sense. overpowering 01:08:12.809 --> 01:08:15.190 rules and regulations were you successful yes 01:08:15.190 --> 01:08:17.630 somebody i finally found somebody who had the 01:08:17.630 --> 01:08:20.130 common sense to to realize that well first of 01:08:20.130 --> 01:08:22.170 all if this kid is from an african country and 01:08:22.170 --> 01:08:24.550 we are interviewing him in english and he seems 01:08:24.550 --> 01:08:26.949 to be speaking it well and he wrote an essay 01:08:26.949 --> 01:08:30.869 in english he must have been to school there 01:08:30.869 --> 01:08:34.270 we go exactly you know somebody who finally was 01:08:34.270 --> 01:08:36.390 i was like finally somebody who at least was 01:08:36.390 --> 01:08:40.119 willing to use their brain somehow you know And 01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:41.979 so I was taken into a school, but it was also 01:08:41.979 --> 01:08:45.039 on probation because my background also became 01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:47.079 a problem, right? I wasn't like every other young 01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:51.500 boy. I had this history and we were not hiding 01:08:51.500 --> 01:08:54.319 it. So the school principals would know and they 01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:57.359 decided to tell the parents, teachers association, 01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:59.560 they decided to tell some of the parents, most 01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:02.220 of them, that we had this kid we're going to 01:09:02.220 --> 01:09:03.979 take in our school. We think, you know, he's 01:09:03.979 --> 01:09:06.310 intelligent. We think that. By giving him this 01:09:06.310 --> 01:09:08.229 opportunity, he could change his life. But he 01:09:08.229 --> 01:09:12.510 has a background. At the time, most people were 01:09:12.510 --> 01:09:16.670 not familiar about a former child soldier. Were 01:09:16.670 --> 01:09:19.350 they really healed? Are they not? Would they 01:09:19.350 --> 01:09:23.609 go back to violence? So all these questions, 01:09:23.670 --> 01:09:26.329 nobody had an answer to. Even though I was on 01:09:26.329 --> 01:09:28.069 the corner saying that I can give you the answer, 01:09:28.130 --> 01:09:30.600 no way. I'm interested in any of that stuff, 01:09:30.699 --> 01:09:32.979 you know. I know he wasn't going to listen to 01:09:32.979 --> 01:09:35.020 me, you know. It's like, okay, I'm sure you'll 01:09:35.020 --> 01:09:40.100 say that. And so I felt watched even when I was 01:09:40.100 --> 01:09:42.119 in school, right? You know, I was on the football 01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:44.479 team again. You know, on the playground sometimes 01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:46.319 I see some of my friends who are wrestling, and 01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:49.220 if I try to jump in, I will see all the teachers 01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:51.460 basically like their eyes peeling back because 01:09:51.460 --> 01:09:53.960 they're thinking, oh, boy. The former child soldiers 01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:56.260 jumping into the wrestle fights, what is that 01:09:56.260 --> 01:09:58.819 going to turn into? I could feel them from, you 01:09:58.819 --> 01:10:01.800 know. I'd also been trained as a soldier, so 01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:03.779 I could feel when their eyes on me and people 01:10:03.779 --> 01:10:07.579 are thinking a certain way, right? So I couldn't 01:10:07.579 --> 01:10:10.000 really be a kid as much as I wanted to. I couldn't 01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:12.319 play around in the playground and play rough, 01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:16.039 you know. Everything was being watched, you know. 01:10:17.819 --> 01:10:20.829 Yeah. It's amazing, and that's what I want to 01:10:20.829 --> 01:10:22.989 get into with the next story. But like you said, 01:10:23.109 --> 01:10:25.329 you literally had your childhood snatched from 01:10:25.329 --> 01:10:28.229 you when the war started. But even when the war 01:10:28.229 --> 01:10:31.770 was done, you're running from the war initially, 01:10:31.890 --> 01:10:33.909 and the parents don't trust you, or the adults 01:10:33.909 --> 01:10:35.350 don't trust you because they think you might 01:10:35.350 --> 01:10:37.770 be a child soldier now. And then you get liberated, 01:10:37.770 --> 01:10:41.149 and now you're still being viewed this way. So 01:10:41.149 --> 01:10:45.329 once that conflict started and the first set 01:10:45.329 --> 01:10:46.789 of people started running through your village 01:10:46.789 --> 01:10:49.449 holding dead kids, That was pretty much the end 01:10:49.449 --> 01:10:51.430 of your childhood there at the age of, was it 01:10:51.430 --> 01:10:55.949 12? Yeah, absolutely. Now, for the rest of my 01:10:55.949 --> 01:10:57.789 life, I then had to prove to people that I was 01:10:57.789 --> 01:11:01.609 human and I was still a child, that I was okay. 01:11:01.750 --> 01:11:06.189 I had to prove to them. I still had this. Even 01:11:06.189 --> 01:11:08.989 my mom, my family that adopted me, her friends 01:11:08.989 --> 01:11:11.289 used to call her. I overheard them over the phone 01:11:11.289 --> 01:11:13.869 conversation. She would whisper at night. They 01:11:13.869 --> 01:11:15.310 would call her late at night to check on her 01:11:15.310 --> 01:11:17.689 if she was okay because she had adopted this 01:11:17.689 --> 01:11:20.109 former child soldier who was living in the house 01:11:20.109 --> 01:11:22.569 with her. They tell her, oh, you should hide 01:11:22.569 --> 01:11:25.829 the knives, you know. I used to think to myself, 01:11:25.949 --> 01:11:28.579 so these people really think that, okay. i survived 01:11:28.579 --> 01:11:30.859 a war all the way took a plane all the way across 01:11:30.859 --> 01:11:33.560 the atlantic ocean i landed in new york and then 01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:35.300 i'm just going to try and murder the woman who's 01:11:35.300 --> 01:11:36.800 actually trying to save my life you know yeah 01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:39.039 mom i was gonna murder you yesterday but i couldn't 01:11:39.039 --> 01:11:43.520 find any knives anywhere you know i'm gonna come 01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:47.220 out you know it's like seriously anyways i of 01:11:47.220 --> 01:11:49.380 course i could make jokes with it because then 01:11:49.380 --> 01:11:51.239 they were not gonna freak out even more right 01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:54.479 exactly so i i i just kind of i just looked at 01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:57.689 it and kind of laughed you know and try to show 01:11:57.689 --> 01:12:01.590 them otherwise. I was probably the only person 01:12:01.590 --> 01:12:05.609 who truly understood the nature of violence. 01:12:06.400 --> 01:12:08.359 And hence the reason why I wanted to stay from, 01:12:08.380 --> 01:12:10.239 you know. And also my friends I was making in 01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:12.100 New York, some of them in high school too, you 01:12:12.100 --> 01:12:13.380 know, they didn't know my background. They would 01:12:13.380 --> 01:12:15.899 tell me, yeah, you know, New York City is a very 01:12:15.899 --> 01:12:17.699 rough city. You know, we need to prepare you 01:12:17.699 --> 01:12:19.279 for the streets of New York, you know, because 01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:21.680 you seem like a really weak African kid. But 01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:23.760 New York is a hard place, man. It's a jungle, 01:12:23.819 --> 01:12:25.720 you know. You have to survive. And I used to 01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:27.619 think, you guys have no idea what a jungle is, 01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:29.340 you know. I'm sure New York is a jungle in its 01:12:29.340 --> 01:12:33.750 own right. manhattan on east 14th street is no 01:12:33.750 --> 01:12:36.130 jungle it's not sierra leone in the middle of 01:12:36.130 --> 01:12:40.369 the civil war i'm sure you can get some you know 01:12:40.369 --> 01:12:43.109 you can get somebody can beat you up on 14th 01:12:43.109 --> 01:12:46.539 street but it's not gonna be nearly as bad Yeah, 01:12:46.539 --> 01:12:48.439 exactly. Well, I want to talk about that because 01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:51.180 I mean, I love that. And so now you're you're 01:12:51.180 --> 01:12:53.979 in New York and you've got obviously this history, 01:12:54.020 --> 01:12:56.119 but you're you know, you're you've gone through 01:12:56.119 --> 01:12:58.399 the rehabilitation and now you've got these friends 01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:01.960 that grew up in New York City. And one of them 01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:05.109 suggests. playing paintball one day so please 01:13:05.109 --> 01:13:06.930 please if you could tell us a story right from 01:13:06.930 --> 01:13:09.630 the beginning i think it's just it summarizes 01:13:09.630 --> 01:13:11.890 your entire journey and then and then coming 01:13:11.890 --> 01:13:14.890 over here well you know so so they didn't know 01:13:14.890 --> 01:13:16.930 my background this thing so i've made some friends 01:13:16.930 --> 01:13:18.649 you know and you know they've always some of 01:13:18.649 --> 01:13:20.289 them had always thought that i was a little strange 01:13:20.289 --> 01:13:22.590 you know because i'm very much appreciative about 01:13:22.590 --> 01:13:25.130 so many things that they took for granted but 01:13:25.130 --> 01:13:27.489 anyway you know it's pretty nice fellow quiet 01:13:27.489 --> 01:13:30.289 all it you know So they thought, hey, man, let's 01:13:30.289 --> 01:13:32.829 invite Ishmael to play paintball. So it was a 01:13:32.829 --> 01:13:35.689 group of boys. One of them, their family had 01:13:35.689 --> 01:13:38.010 a property upstate New York, so big, open land. 01:13:38.909 --> 01:13:41.630 And they said, come with us this weekend. We're 01:13:41.630 --> 01:13:44.170 going to play paintball. I didn't know what the 01:13:44.170 --> 01:13:46.890 game was. I'd never heard of it. And I said, 01:13:46.930 --> 01:13:48.390 what is the game? They said, ah, you'll love 01:13:48.390 --> 01:13:51.069 it. When we get there, we'll show you. Just tell 01:13:51.069 --> 01:13:52.550 your mom you're coming with us. So I told my 01:13:52.550 --> 01:13:55.069 mom, yeah, I'm going upstate. So I said, sure, 01:13:55.210 --> 01:13:56.869 you made some new friends at school, you know. 01:13:57.489 --> 01:14:00.430 Parents were all in on it. So I packed up. We 01:14:00.430 --> 01:14:03.130 went to Upstate New York. We got there in the 01:14:03.130 --> 01:14:05.090 evening, you know, and they said, tomorrow we're 01:14:05.090 --> 01:14:06.850 going to play. And so they showed me the equipment. 01:14:06.890 --> 01:14:10.069 I'm thinking to myself, oh, no, you know. I said, 01:14:10.449 --> 01:14:13.069 all right. Sounds like a game I've played before, 01:14:13.130 --> 01:14:15.130 maybe not necessarily the same way, you know. 01:14:15.869 --> 01:14:18.170 So they're all excited. They're telling me about 01:14:18.170 --> 01:14:20.289 how this is like the most amazing game you play, 01:14:20.430 --> 01:14:22.489 you know, and I asked them, you know. You know, 01:14:22.489 --> 01:14:24.409 I was trying to pretend that I didn't really 01:14:24.409 --> 01:14:28.069 know, and they showed me this is all the equipment 01:14:28.069 --> 01:14:30.729 and everything. So at night, all of a sudden, 01:14:30.770 --> 01:14:34.930 my whole sort of, you know, guerrilla warfare 01:14:34.930 --> 01:14:38.470 mentality a little bit kicked in, you know. So 01:14:38.470 --> 01:14:40.609 at night, while they were sleeping, I got up, 01:14:40.670 --> 01:14:43.670 and I went and basically did a little recon all 01:14:43.670 --> 01:14:45.750 over the terrain where I was supposed to play. 01:14:48.460 --> 01:14:51.159 Rule number one, preparation, right? Preparation 01:14:51.159 --> 01:14:54.560 is key in everything, right? So there I was, 01:14:54.680 --> 01:14:57.939 looking at every tree, measuring paces between 01:14:57.939 --> 01:15:00.880 this shed and that shed, and kind of getting 01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:02.659 a hang, and I came back and slept. So the next 01:15:02.659 --> 01:15:04.819 morning, everybody stood up, and, you know, and 01:15:04.819 --> 01:15:06.760 one of them was very adamant, don't take off 01:15:06.760 --> 01:15:08.140 your helmets, because, you know, when you think 01:15:08.140 --> 01:15:09.739 nobody's watching, someone's going to hit you 01:15:09.739 --> 01:15:11.739 in the face with a watch, so you got it, you 01:15:11.739 --> 01:15:14.020 know. So we decided to start playing, decided 01:15:14.020 --> 01:15:15.760 to do, let's do one -on -one first, and then 01:15:15.760 --> 01:15:18.829 team, whatever, you know. And so each time I'm 01:15:18.829 --> 01:15:20.909 like winning, you know, each time, you know. 01:15:21.189 --> 01:15:23.029 And I'm finding the whole thing really funny, 01:15:23.149 --> 01:15:25.270 right? Because, but they're so serious, these 01:15:25.270 --> 01:15:29.750 kids, you know. Very serious. So they said to 01:15:29.750 --> 01:15:32.409 me, hey man, you sure you've never played paintball 01:15:32.409 --> 01:15:35.170 before? I said, no, I have not played paintball 01:15:35.170 --> 01:15:37.960 before. Which was true. I'd never played pinball 01:15:37.960 --> 01:15:40.020 before, but I'd been in a war before, which they 01:15:40.020 --> 01:15:42.840 didn't know. But there was no pain. But there 01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:45.020 was no pain. So they said, well, how come you're 01:15:45.020 --> 01:15:47.840 so good at it? I said, well, you guys are really 01:15:47.840 --> 01:15:50.319 great teachers. You just really explained the 01:15:50.319 --> 01:15:53.159 game really well to me. So I owe it to you guys. 01:15:53.739 --> 01:15:55.859 At some point, I had to sit out of the game so 01:15:55.859 --> 01:15:58.520 they could have fun. But what was really interesting 01:15:58.520 --> 01:16:00.880 about the whole experience for me is that I really 01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:06.060 wanted to explain to them so much. But it required 01:16:06.060 --> 01:16:09.220 me to give them context of my life. I really 01:16:09.220 --> 01:16:12.180 wanted to explain to them that I was so grateful 01:16:12.180 --> 01:16:16.079 for them. And I hope they appreciate the fact 01:16:16.079 --> 01:16:18.399 that the only violence they would ever come close 01:16:18.399 --> 01:16:20.760 to experiencing was the one they pretended to 01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:24.779 play at. And that that was so cool and that was 01:16:24.779 --> 01:16:27.699 so amazing. I wish they understood that. But 01:16:27.699 --> 01:16:30.279 I couldn't because I needed to explain my life 01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:33.609 to them. And it wasn't really the... the space 01:16:33.609 --> 01:16:37.689 for it, you know? So I just observed them and 01:16:37.689 --> 01:16:40.750 I thought to them, how lucky are they, you know? 01:16:40.890 --> 01:16:44.210 They should feel so lucky, you know? And I always 01:16:44.210 --> 01:16:45.989 remember that. Of course, when I decided to write 01:16:45.989 --> 01:16:48.229 the book, some of these friends, I called them 01:16:48.229 --> 01:16:50.430 to tell them, remember when we went upstate and 01:16:50.430 --> 01:16:53.229 we were playing paintball and I was winning too 01:16:53.229 --> 01:16:55.449 much? Well, you know, I kind of wrote a book 01:16:55.449 --> 01:16:57.069 about why that was the case and then they were 01:16:57.069 --> 01:16:58.430 like, what do you mean? So I explained something 01:16:58.430 --> 01:17:01.710 and they were like, whoa. If they had known, 01:17:01.750 --> 01:17:04.250 they would have never invited me to play. They 01:17:04.250 --> 01:17:05.750 would have been terrified. They would have been 01:17:05.750 --> 01:17:08.710 terrified, exactly. But we got to express our 01:17:08.710 --> 01:17:12.090 childhood and versions of it. And that really 01:17:12.090 --> 01:17:15.189 meant a lot to me. And I always enjoyed the fact 01:17:15.189 --> 01:17:17.770 that they tried to look after me, thinking that 01:17:17.770 --> 01:17:20.329 I'm just another child, which also I appreciated. 01:17:22.489 --> 01:17:27.710 Yeah, without the other information. But eventually, 01:17:27.930 --> 01:17:30.210 most of them found out. what it was you know 01:17:30.210 --> 01:17:33.149 so yeah I wonder what they thought running through 01:17:33.149 --> 01:17:35.149 their head all the flashbacks they had and ah 01:17:35.149 --> 01:17:38.489 that's why yeah I'm sure yeah they were like 01:17:38.489 --> 01:17:40.789 they were like oh man that guy they understood 01:17:40.789 --> 01:17:42.850 all the guerrilla tactics I was using on them 01:17:42.850 --> 01:17:45.090 because they were trying to do all this crawling 01:17:45.090 --> 01:17:47.770 and stuff they're clearly watching Rambo films 01:17:47.770 --> 01:17:51.550 I could tell you I was like okay man this is 01:17:51.550 --> 01:17:53.770 not Hollywood you know you gotta do your recon 01:17:53.770 --> 01:17:58.140 you gotta practice you know By the way, when 01:17:58.140 --> 01:18:00.140 I returned and my mom found out that I played 01:18:00.140 --> 01:18:02.420 this game, she was terrified. And I said, come 01:18:02.420 --> 01:18:04.500 on. So I tried to explain to my mom, I know what 01:18:04.500 --> 01:18:06.439 the difference is between the reality of violence 01:18:06.439 --> 01:18:11.220 and the game. So it wasn't like I was going to 01:18:11.220 --> 01:18:12.960 be shooting paintball at them and all of a sudden 01:18:12.960 --> 01:18:14.939 I was going to go back in like Civil War mode 01:18:14.939 --> 01:18:19.439 in Sierra Leone. But I understood also where 01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:21.300 she was coming from. She was my mother, so her 01:18:21.300 --> 01:18:24.300 primary concern is to worry. Now that I'm a father, 01:18:24.359 --> 01:18:28.850 I understand that completely. when you know yeah 01:18:28.850 --> 01:18:31.470 you can't help it but worry about your kids it's 01:18:31.470 --> 01:18:33.930 just the nature of it well exactly and especially 01:18:33.930 --> 01:18:36.750 after you know what you've seen in your lifetime 01:18:36.750 --> 01:18:38.789 so far and i'm worried about you know my son 01:18:38.789 --> 01:18:41.529 being out past dark in case you know he gets 01:18:41.529 --> 01:18:44.289 hit by a car or something but uh yeah i mean 01:18:44.289 --> 01:18:47.890 your your vision of what potentially could happen 01:18:47.890 --> 01:18:50.590 is even higher so yeah it's got to be make you 01:18:50.590 --> 01:18:53.850 a pretty neurotic dad now No, actually, I try 01:18:53.850 --> 01:18:56.949 not to worry so much like that. Obviously, I 01:18:56.949 --> 01:19:00.069 want to protect my children. But, you know, one 01:19:00.069 --> 01:19:03.390 of the worries that I had, you know, when I thought 01:19:03.390 --> 01:19:05.329 back in my life that I wanted to have children 01:19:05.329 --> 01:19:08.510 was one of the things is that I don't want to 01:19:08.510 --> 01:19:11.229 give them my eyes, you know. I don't want to 01:19:11.229 --> 01:19:16.229 make them live life because of what I've experienced, 01:19:16.390 --> 01:19:18.649 you know, because then I will limit them, you 01:19:18.649 --> 01:19:21.630 know. At the same time, I'm aware of how the 01:19:21.630 --> 01:19:23.630 world is, but I don't want them to fear the world 01:19:23.630 --> 01:19:26.210 because of, you know, of what I've seen. And 01:19:26.210 --> 01:19:28.130 it's very easy for parents to do because, you 01:19:28.130 --> 01:19:30.710 know, we want to protect our children. So we 01:19:30.710 --> 01:19:33.529 want to tell them what we know. We want to prepare 01:19:33.529 --> 01:19:36.229 them for the big bad world, you know, which to 01:19:36.229 --> 01:19:39.109 some extent has a lot of things going on in there. 01:19:39.670 --> 01:19:42.250 You know, but, you know, I always say, you know, 01:19:42.289 --> 01:19:45.770 like, if my daughter, her only heartache ever 01:19:45.770 --> 01:19:48.479 in life is some boy didn't call her. I would 01:19:48.479 --> 01:19:51.920 rather have that, you know, even if it's shallow. 01:19:52.060 --> 01:19:54.020 I'd rather have that heartache and nothing more, 01:19:54.119 --> 01:19:56.939 right? I don't want to tell anything. Obviously, 01:19:56.939 --> 01:19:59.279 I will find the boy and tune them up a little, 01:19:59.420 --> 01:20:03.659 but that's another story. Funny old bayonet. 01:20:04.359 --> 01:20:08.789 That's another story. Joke with my wife, I was, 01:20:08.829 --> 01:20:10.890 you know, we had this, you know, our first child, 01:20:10.970 --> 01:20:13.350 our daughter, she's now four, and she always 01:20:13.350 --> 01:20:15.569 says to me, what will happen when the boy comes 01:20:15.569 --> 01:20:17.789 to take your daughter on a date? And I say, oh, 01:20:17.810 --> 01:20:19.729 yeah, I've thought about it. I've thought about 01:20:19.729 --> 01:20:22.329 it. And she said, what are you going to do? And 01:20:22.329 --> 01:20:23.930 I was like, oh, I've thought about it, you know, 01:20:23.949 --> 01:20:25.470 and I was like, I'm just going to give them one 01:20:25.470 --> 01:20:28.289 of my first book, you know, a memoir, and I'm 01:20:28.289 --> 01:20:30.050 going to open to one of the pages and be like, 01:20:30.109 --> 01:20:31.970 read this paragraph. You see that stuff? I still 01:20:31.970 --> 01:20:37.770 know how to do it. So, 8 .30. 8 .15, he's there 01:20:37.770 --> 01:20:41.270 at the doorstep. Yeah, 8 .15, my wife, I'm not 01:20:41.270 --> 01:20:43.090 going to let you do that. Obviously, I'm joking. 01:20:43.170 --> 01:20:46.590 I won't traumatize you like that. But I did think 01:20:46.590 --> 01:20:49.069 about it. Well, I love that, what you just said. 01:20:49.170 --> 01:20:52.470 I don't want to give them my eyes because a lot 01:20:52.470 --> 01:20:55.350 of people listening are firefighters, paramedics, 01:20:55.350 --> 01:20:58.069 police officers, soldiers. And it is, you know, 01:20:58.069 --> 01:21:00.829 we have that balance too where obviously we see... 01:21:01.180 --> 01:21:02.899 horrible things especially things you know violence 01:21:02.899 --> 01:21:05.680 um driving you know some of these these awful 01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:07.319 things that happen to these people out there 01:21:07.319 --> 01:21:11.319 um trying to find that balance too between warning 01:21:11.319 --> 01:21:13.239 them and making sure they don't make you know 01:21:13.239 --> 01:21:16.020 uh poor choices when they're out there but not 01:21:16.020 --> 01:21:18.359 scaring them to death and traumatizing them with 01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:21.579 you know like you said with your eyes yeah it 01:21:21.579 --> 01:21:23.659 is a difficult balance i tell you it's not easy 01:21:23.659 --> 01:21:26.899 you know Because you can see, but you know, what 01:21:26.899 --> 01:21:30.060 you said, the key word that you said is to give 01:21:30.060 --> 01:21:32.800 them the right tools to make the proper decisions 01:21:32.800 --> 01:21:35.859 for their own lives, you know. To tell them not 01:21:35.859 --> 01:21:38.060 to make careless decisions and to think, you 01:21:38.060 --> 01:21:40.800 know, to trust their instincts, you know, to 01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:43.899 be mindful around themselves, you know. To think, 01:21:43.960 --> 01:21:45.840 you know, think for themselves, you know, not 01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:47.760 let other people think for them and these are 01:21:47.760 --> 01:21:49.279 the, you prepare them and then you let them. 01:21:49.819 --> 01:21:51.939 go in the world and you know you hope that they 01:21:51.939 --> 01:21:54.119 make the simple mistakes you know that they can 01:21:54.119 --> 01:21:57.659 rebound back from easily you know um and and 01:21:57.659 --> 01:22:02.720 basically that's it you know um yeah yeah love 01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:04.699 it absolutely love it yeah there's many mistakes 01:22:04.699 --> 01:22:06.939 where you just grow stronger from there's some 01:22:06.939 --> 01:22:08.579 that you don't survive and obviously those are 01:22:08.579 --> 01:22:11.079 the ones you want to avoid but the other ones 01:22:11.079 --> 01:22:13.859 they just make you a stronger person so they're 01:22:13.859 --> 01:22:16.159 healthy too yeah absolutely i mean i'm really 01:22:16.159 --> 01:22:22.340 you know like um People who make these choices 01:22:22.340 --> 01:22:25.000 in this sort of service professions, you know, 01:22:25.060 --> 01:22:27.300 really like human service professions, I always 01:22:27.300 --> 01:22:29.720 admire the fact that, you know, like particularly 01:22:29.720 --> 01:22:33.060 when you come from devastation, like me coming 01:22:33.060 --> 01:22:37.060 from a country where that mentality did not necessarily 01:22:37.060 --> 01:22:40.279 exist, you know? You know what I mean? Like you 01:22:40.279 --> 01:22:42.439 put yourself in harm's way to save somebody's 01:22:42.439 --> 01:22:45.300 life, you know? It's quite a normal thing because 01:22:45.300 --> 01:22:47.199 I come from a part of the world where, you know, 01:22:47.239 --> 01:22:49.699 maybe it used to be there when there was just 01:22:49.699 --> 01:22:52.260 the community aspect. But at some point during 01:22:52.260 --> 01:22:53.979 the war, that was not the case, you know, with 01:22:53.979 --> 01:22:56.699 a lot of people, you know. So to see that people 01:22:56.699 --> 01:23:01.079 actually make those decisions and make it a career 01:23:01.079 --> 01:23:04.159 and a profession, it's quite normal to see, you 01:23:04.159 --> 01:23:11.199 know, that, yeah, I commend those sort of things, 01:23:11.300 --> 01:23:18.869 you know. Actually, what is it? I lived in California 01:23:18.869 --> 01:23:21.989 for a bit and there were lots of fires in California 01:23:21.989 --> 01:23:28.189 and it always warmed my heart a little bit when 01:23:28.189 --> 01:23:30.050 I would see all these firefighters just really 01:23:30.050 --> 01:23:33.130 taking the charge and making sure that people 01:23:33.130 --> 01:23:37.710 were safe and going to people's aides in very, 01:23:37.750 --> 01:23:40.710 very difficult circumstances. Again, when we 01:23:40.710 --> 01:23:43.050 show our humanity, right? And for me, why this 01:23:43.050 --> 01:23:45.310 really means a lot to me is because my life is 01:23:45.310 --> 01:23:47.670 what it is now, is because each turn of my life 01:23:47.670 --> 01:23:50.289 that changed my life is because somebody decided 01:23:50.289 --> 01:23:55.930 to give me a little help, give me a little hand 01:23:55.930 --> 01:23:58.409 to acknowledge my humanity, to realize that, 01:23:58.430 --> 01:24:00.470 wait, I have the power to change the course of 01:24:00.470 --> 01:24:02.729 this person's life by making this, you know, 01:24:02.750 --> 01:24:05.329 by coming to their aid a certain way. And that 01:24:05.329 --> 01:24:08.449 set me on another path that pushed me up a little, 01:24:08.569 --> 01:24:13.949 you know? And that's why I'm possible. So I very 01:24:13.949 --> 01:24:21.229 much appreciate these sorts of gestures, you 01:24:21.229 --> 01:24:23.010 know, when we recognize each other as humanity, 01:24:23.229 --> 01:24:26.470 regardless of where we're from, what we are, 01:24:26.529 --> 01:24:29.430 what we're doing. Yeah, well, I mean, just to 01:24:29.430 --> 01:24:32.010 underline what you said, and I think you've touched 01:24:32.010 --> 01:24:33.649 so many lives. I mean, we're having this conversation 01:24:33.649 --> 01:24:35.250 because you touched mine with no question, which 01:24:35.250 --> 01:24:37.510 is also indirectly related to how my son was 01:24:37.510 --> 01:24:41.489 raised. i heard uh it was another lady i had 01:24:41.489 --> 01:24:43.229 an interview with and she compared the the pen 01:24:43.229 --> 01:24:47.250 and the gun but i just kind of want to add to 01:24:47.250 --> 01:24:50.109 her observation um because she was talking about 01:24:50.109 --> 01:24:52.250 them both being symbols of power my observation 01:24:52.250 --> 01:24:56.029 is in sierra leone the gun was used and obviously 01:24:56.029 --> 01:24:58.649 really what came out of it was just a huge amount 01:24:58.649 --> 01:25:01.369 of death i mean it's just all tragedy but here 01:25:01.369 --> 01:25:04.750 you are with a pen in your hand And you've done 01:25:04.750 --> 01:25:07.609 so much good, inspired so many people. And you're 01:25:07.609 --> 01:25:11.010 now an ambassador for making sure that children 01:25:11.010 --> 01:25:13.829 aren't used as soldiers. And for that simple 01:25:13.829 --> 01:25:16.810 change and putting the written word back in your 01:25:16.810 --> 01:25:21.149 hand, as you loved when you were young, is again 01:25:21.149 --> 01:25:23.390 your service. You came from that violence, which 01:25:23.390 --> 01:25:25.069 didn't work. And obviously you weren't given 01:25:25.069 --> 01:25:26.970 an option to even participate in the first place. 01:25:27.010 --> 01:25:31.000 You were forced to. what that experience then 01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:33.779 did and all the positive ways that you've managed 01:25:33.779 --> 01:25:36.140 to touch people not only in your own country 01:25:36.140 --> 01:25:39.579 but all around the planet um you know is is a 01:25:39.579 --> 01:25:42.300 huge testament to like you said what turning 01:25:42.300 --> 01:25:45.380 around and and having that that sense of giving 01:25:45.380 --> 01:25:48.380 back that sense of service can do versus just 01:25:48.380 --> 01:25:51.159 trying to force and bully your way into getting 01:25:51.159 --> 01:25:54.020 people to do what you want to do absolutely absolutely 01:25:54.020 --> 01:25:56.380 i couldn't have said any better no i mean yeah 01:25:56.380 --> 01:26:00.390 that definitely you know You mentioned something 01:26:00.390 --> 01:26:03.229 earlier also, which is that I think in life, 01:26:03.430 --> 01:26:07.390 what I've come to learn the hard way, but what 01:26:07.390 --> 01:26:09.569 I've come to learn is that obviously we don't 01:26:09.569 --> 01:26:13.430 want, I don't wish bad things to happen to anyone 01:26:13.430 --> 01:26:16.310 at all or to go to what I went through. But whenever 01:26:16.310 --> 01:26:18.270 something happens to us, I think we have two 01:26:18.270 --> 01:26:21.649 choices. We can either just look at it as just 01:26:21.649 --> 01:26:24.409 complete horror, which is probably our natural 01:26:24.409 --> 01:26:27.689 impulse first to go that way route. or we can 01:26:27.689 --> 01:26:29.689 also look at the situation realize that all right 01:26:29.689 --> 01:26:33.770 um how did it shape me how does this shape my 01:26:33.770 --> 01:26:36.470 character and what what good can i extrapolate 01:26:36.470 --> 01:26:38.850 from it even though it's seemingly horrible situation 01:26:38.850 --> 01:26:41.529 you know and at some point in my life i had to 01:26:41.529 --> 01:26:43.409 make those decisions because either i would have 01:26:43.409 --> 01:26:46.369 allowed the trauma of the war to kill me, or 01:26:46.369 --> 01:26:49.069 I can beat myself up and victimize myself for 01:26:49.069 --> 01:26:51.470 the rest of my life, which is what most people 01:26:51.470 --> 01:26:53.029 would do sometimes. A good number of people take 01:26:53.029 --> 01:26:55.069 that route, right? You know, they've been through 01:26:55.069 --> 01:26:56.850 something and they victimize themselves and beat 01:26:56.850 --> 01:26:59.930 themselves up about it. Or I can actually look 01:26:59.930 --> 01:27:01.590 at it and be like, you know what, I'm still alive. 01:27:02.130 --> 01:27:06.250 I survived that mess. Why waste time anymore 01:27:06.250 --> 01:27:08.689 in my life? What am I going to do useful with 01:27:08.689 --> 01:27:10.449 this life, this second chance that I've gotten 01:27:10.449 --> 01:27:13.289 to live? What am I going to do with it, you know? 01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:17.600 And how dedicated am I going to really use that, 01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:19.720 whatever it is that I choose to do? How am I 01:27:19.720 --> 01:27:21.699 going to dedicate my life really truly to it 01:27:21.699 --> 01:27:24.399 so that I can do it well and also help other 01:27:24.399 --> 01:27:27.560 people? So I made that decision. I knew very 01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:28.960 well if I went the other way, it would kill me, 01:27:28.979 --> 01:27:31.380 just the traumas and the memories of it. And 01:27:31.380 --> 01:27:33.159 so I even decided to make those things useful. 01:27:33.239 --> 01:27:35.869 For example, I had a lot of insomnia. when I 01:27:35.869 --> 01:27:37.529 came out of the war. When I came out of the war 01:27:37.529 --> 01:27:39.949 in the 90s, most people didn't have the word 01:27:39.949 --> 01:27:42.250 they have now. PTSD was not yet around, right? 01:27:42.390 --> 01:27:45.770 It was just some crazy dude who was freaking 01:27:45.770 --> 01:27:50.789 out from time to time. And waking up in the middle 01:27:50.789 --> 01:27:52.970 of the night, if you had a girlfriend, you're 01:27:52.970 --> 01:27:54.449 crazy, you woke up in the middle of the night 01:27:54.449 --> 01:27:56.670 next to her shouting, running for things, and 01:27:56.670 --> 01:27:58.390 you think, okay, I'm not coming to this one's 01:27:58.390 --> 01:28:01.789 house anymore. There was nobody to really understand 01:28:01.789 --> 01:28:04.369 what was going on with you. But I had insomnia, 01:28:04.449 --> 01:28:07.829 tremendous insomnia. I couldn't sleep. And a 01:28:07.829 --> 01:28:10.270 lot of people suggested you should see a doctor, 01:28:10.529 --> 01:28:13.710 you should take some medicine. And for a while, 01:28:13.750 --> 01:28:15.670 it was an enticement to do that. And I thought 01:28:15.670 --> 01:28:18.329 to myself, you know what? Everybody's looking 01:28:18.329 --> 01:28:21.689 at it in the wrong way. I mean, I was in my 20s. 01:28:22.829 --> 01:28:26.510 I was a university student. I was having this 01:28:26.510 --> 01:28:29.050 incredible insomnia. I could stay up for about 01:28:29.050 --> 01:28:35.069 20... two hours of the day. I only need an hour 01:28:35.069 --> 01:28:36.890 and a half, two hours of sleep, and I'll be completely 01:28:36.890 --> 01:28:38.770 fine. I had no health issues. And I thought to 01:28:38.770 --> 01:28:41.869 myself, why would that be a problem? This is 01:28:41.869 --> 01:28:45.609 a good thing. I mean, I will read, do all my 01:28:45.609 --> 01:28:49.109 readings, do all my assignments. I will go out 01:28:49.109 --> 01:28:52.109 to a pub and have a drink. I will party. And 01:28:52.109 --> 01:28:53.829 I will still have time. I will still be up. So 01:28:53.829 --> 01:28:55.970 who would not want to have that kind of energy, 01:28:56.090 --> 01:28:59.960 you know? So that's how I decided to look at 01:28:59.960 --> 01:29:01.300 it, you know. And all of a sudden, it was no 01:29:01.300 --> 01:29:04.420 longer a problem. It actually became this incredible 01:29:04.420 --> 01:29:07.039 advantage I had, you know, where I was always 01:29:07.039 --> 01:29:09.600 on top of my schoolwork. I was also partying 01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:11.579 as much as I could because I was tired with my 01:29:11.579 --> 01:29:14.939 hands. I couldn't sleep, you know. And it turned 01:29:14.939 --> 01:29:20.159 out great, you know. Now, was there a point, 01:29:20.180 --> 01:29:22.220 though, where you did start sleeping again? Yeah, 01:29:22.220 --> 01:29:24.979 there was a point. I sleep more now than before. 01:29:25.100 --> 01:29:27.579 Yes, it turned around a little bit at some point. 01:29:28.159 --> 01:29:30.199 But for a number of years, I couldn't. I could 01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:32.439 only get two hours of sleep if I was lucky on 01:29:32.439 --> 01:29:36.600 a given night. But I made use of it. I read incredibly. 01:29:36.800 --> 01:29:41.819 I read a lot. I wrote. I did extra readings. 01:29:43.159 --> 01:29:47.359 I partied. I did all sorts of things. Anyway, 01:29:47.560 --> 01:29:51.060 I even had some extra jobs. I was in university. 01:29:51.159 --> 01:29:52.939 I wanted to make extra bucks so I could take 01:29:52.939 --> 01:29:56.340 those shifts. At the radio station where nobody 01:29:56.340 --> 01:29:58.920 wanted to be there, I could be the DJ if nobody's 01:29:58.920 --> 01:30:00.399 listening because I'll be up. I know I'll be 01:30:00.399 --> 01:30:03.239 listening to the music, so I'll play it. Be your 01:30:03.239 --> 01:30:06.300 own DJ. I'll be my own DJ. I'll play what I like. 01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:10.399 So I did all these incredible things. Even observation, 01:30:10.779 --> 01:30:12.460 you know, like as a writer, and I always tell 01:30:12.460 --> 01:30:16.079 people, you know, when I write fiction, write 01:30:16.079 --> 01:30:19.220 novels, you know, because of my background in 01:30:19.220 --> 01:30:22.539 the military, I know how to observe people so 01:30:22.539 --> 01:30:24.500 that they don't feel intruded upon, you know. 01:30:24.990 --> 01:30:27.569 So if I decide to see someone and observe a certain 01:30:27.569 --> 01:30:29.689 situation so I can write about it and develop 01:30:29.689 --> 01:30:31.970 characters out of it, I know how to do it so 01:30:31.970 --> 01:30:33.850 well. And I learned that from a very difficult 01:30:33.850 --> 01:30:37.670 situation, but it's repurposed to me in a way 01:30:37.670 --> 01:30:42.310 that I can make it useful. So that's how I look 01:30:42.310 --> 01:30:45.989 at my life. And I think when something happens, 01:30:46.069 --> 01:30:47.869 you can't immediately make that decision, but 01:30:47.869 --> 01:30:50.510 eventually you have to decide how you want it. 01:30:50.900 --> 01:30:53.520 I could have been a very victimized myself all 01:30:53.520 --> 01:30:55.460 my life and be like, oh, my God, you know, I'm 01:30:55.460 --> 01:30:58.300 a child soldier. I lost my childhood. You know, 01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:00.319 I'm never going to recover from it and just suck 01:31:00.319 --> 01:31:02.279 around all my life. What would I really do for 01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:04.699 me? You know, a few people feel sorry for me 01:31:04.699 --> 01:31:06.279 from time to time. And then they'll be like, 01:31:06.359 --> 01:31:12.000 you know what, man, you know, forget you. Yeah, 01:31:12.060 --> 01:31:15.119 no, I am. Like I said, that's exactly what I 01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:17.420 got from your book. And that's what I, you know. 01:31:17.789 --> 01:31:20.750 was just dying to talk to you about and hear 01:31:20.750 --> 01:31:23.289 that, set that baseline and then where you are 01:31:23.289 --> 01:31:26.569 now. But you touched on the book. So I want to 01:31:26.569 --> 01:31:29.550 ask some wrap up questions because we've already 01:31:29.550 --> 01:31:31.789 been talking for an hour and a half and you've 01:31:31.789 --> 01:31:33.750 been so generous, but I think it needed that 01:31:33.750 --> 01:31:36.069 full hour and a half just to tease out some of 01:31:36.069 --> 01:31:40.409 the points of your incredible story. But I want 01:31:40.409 --> 01:31:42.029 to talk about the book very quickly. So at what 01:31:42.029 --> 01:31:45.329 point did you decide? It was time to put this 01:31:45.329 --> 01:31:49.529 journey that you've been on, on paper. Well, 01:31:49.590 --> 01:31:51.510 you know, I think it started really coming in 01:31:51.510 --> 01:31:52.989 my head when, you know, people would ask me, 01:31:53.010 --> 01:31:54.710 as I said earlier, about where's your report 01:31:54.710 --> 01:31:56.949 card or you should provide it. And I thought 01:31:56.949 --> 01:31:58.829 people did not understand the context of where 01:31:58.829 --> 01:32:02.010 I was coming from. And then also when I was in 01:32:02.010 --> 01:32:05.109 university, Sierra Leone became really notorious 01:32:05.109 --> 01:32:07.470 in the news for the wrong reasons, obviously, 01:32:07.470 --> 01:32:10.470 because of the violence at the richest standpoint 01:32:10.470 --> 01:32:13.869 that shocked the world, you know. you know amputation 01:32:13.869 --> 01:32:16.189 that had been part of the war had become increasing 01:32:16.189 --> 01:32:18.069 the number had grown you know people have been 01:32:18.069 --> 01:32:20.630 amputated and so i remember i remember watching 01:32:20.630 --> 01:32:22.930 cnn and people talking about sierra leone and 01:32:22.930 --> 01:32:25.430 and just it seemed like it was just a country 01:32:25.430 --> 01:32:27.189 where we all woke up one morning and just decided 01:32:27.189 --> 01:32:28.750 to go around amputating each other and there 01:32:28.750 --> 01:32:31.210 was no context whatsoever and then there was 01:32:31.210 --> 01:32:32.970 also the issue of chastity because people were 01:32:32.970 --> 01:32:35.590 basically calling us the last generation and 01:32:35.590 --> 01:32:37.350 there are some people who had done research and 01:32:37.350 --> 01:32:39.329 concluded that because we have been through this 01:32:39.329 --> 01:32:41.909 war At a very young age, we've been introduced 01:32:41.909 --> 01:32:44.770 to violence. Therefore, we would become violence 01:32:44.770 --> 01:32:47.670 adults. We would never be able to change. Then 01:32:47.670 --> 01:32:50.609 basically we were done for. Even if we pretended 01:32:50.609 --> 01:32:52.890 to change, we're just time bombs waiting to explode. 01:32:53.050 --> 01:32:54.789 Something could happen and we would set off, 01:32:54.810 --> 01:32:57.850 you know. And I was in the United States in university 01:32:57.850 --> 01:33:00.229 at the top of my class. Most people did not know 01:33:00.229 --> 01:33:02.970 my background. And yet I was not exploding anywhere, 01:33:03.149 --> 01:33:05.810 you know. So I thought to myself, so I was quite 01:33:05.810 --> 01:33:08.029 upset. I thought this is not correct, you know. 01:33:08.780 --> 01:33:11.500 And this kind of way can only bring fear and 01:33:11.500 --> 01:33:13.380 make it impossible for other young people who 01:33:13.380 --> 01:33:16.779 really need to recover to do that. And I had 01:33:16.779 --> 01:33:18.739 this opportunity to have an education, so I decided 01:33:18.739 --> 01:33:23.060 to start writing slowly about it, not with the 01:33:23.060 --> 01:33:25.079 desire to publish. I thought to prepare myself 01:33:25.079 --> 01:33:27.659 so if I was on a panel, on a debate, I'll be 01:33:27.659 --> 01:33:32.359 able to really say a few important things succinctly. 01:33:32.659 --> 01:33:36.079 So I decided to start writing a book in university, 01:33:36.300 --> 01:33:39.609 and one of my professors read few and shared 01:33:39.609 --> 01:33:41.909 it with another guy who was the creative writing 01:33:41.909 --> 01:33:44.689 department and basically say you know first of 01:33:44.689 --> 01:33:46.390 all you have a talent to write and secondly you 01:33:46.390 --> 01:33:48.130 have an incredible story you should write it 01:33:48.130 --> 01:33:50.270 whether you decide to publish it or not later 01:33:50.270 --> 01:33:51.510 that's up to you but you should write it while 01:33:51.510 --> 01:33:53.149 you're in university and I'm going to make sure 01:33:53.149 --> 01:33:55.970 that you do so basically this professor a friend 01:33:55.970 --> 01:33:59.210 of mine now Dan Sean is a novelist at Oberlin 01:33:59.210 --> 01:34:01.789 College in Ohio basically forced twist my hand 01:34:01.789 --> 01:34:03.489 behind me and say you sit there and write that 01:34:03.489 --> 01:34:06.319 story and you keep it for your kids if you have 01:34:06.319 --> 01:34:08.239 children for all i care but you have to write 01:34:08.239 --> 01:34:10.760 it so that's how i started writing the book with 01:34:10.760 --> 01:34:13.579 not never the intention to publish it i never 01:34:13.579 --> 01:34:16.520 wanted to because it's too personal and when 01:34:16.520 --> 01:34:20.000 i was done with it i began to see the the need 01:34:20.000 --> 01:34:23.260 for it you know and i took a chance actually 01:34:23.260 --> 01:34:25.880 i remember when i had a book deal And that's 01:34:25.880 --> 01:34:28.220 when I finally understood what I'd done. I almost 01:34:28.220 --> 01:34:30.520 wanted to give back the contract because I realized 01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:32.260 that what it meant that they're actually going 01:34:32.260 --> 01:34:34.579 to publish it. And they're going to have copies 01:34:34.579 --> 01:34:37.060 laying around. People are going to read it. They're 01:34:37.060 --> 01:34:40.039 going to know who I am. It absolutely freaked 01:34:40.039 --> 01:34:42.939 me out. And I wanted to return it. And my mother 01:34:42.939 --> 01:34:44.600 said, why don't you sit on it for a week and 01:34:44.600 --> 01:34:46.960 think about it? And obviously, I didn't return 01:34:46.960 --> 01:34:51.430 the contract. And I'm glad in retrospect that 01:34:51.430 --> 01:34:53.670 I didn't. But it changed my life, you know, when 01:34:53.670 --> 01:34:55.390 the book came out. I didn't think it would get 01:34:55.390 --> 01:35:00.109 as popular and as successful as it did. Because 01:35:00.109 --> 01:35:02.149 I thought maybe people would fear the context 01:35:02.149 --> 01:35:04.850 and think I don't want to read a book. It's not 01:35:04.850 --> 01:35:06.949 a book that's sad. It's about a sad situation, 01:35:07.130 --> 01:35:09.270 but it's a book that's incredibly hopeful, that 01:35:09.270 --> 01:35:11.270 I had hope. And people got that when they started 01:35:11.270 --> 01:35:14.189 reading it. And all of a sudden, it changed my 01:35:14.189 --> 01:35:16.670 life. I was living in Brooklyn. I just graduated 01:35:16.670 --> 01:35:18.970 from university, and I was renting a flat, an 01:35:18.970 --> 01:35:23.470 apartment, with a friend of mine. And we had 01:35:23.470 --> 01:35:26.550 put our name down for the telephone service and 01:35:26.550 --> 01:35:30.329 the cable service. And all of a sudden, one weekend, 01:35:30.550 --> 01:35:32.390 an excerpt of the book was in the New York Times 01:35:32.390 --> 01:35:34.909 Magazine. I was on the train from Brooklyn to 01:35:34.909 --> 01:35:38.500 Manhattan to see my mom. And I'm not joking. 01:35:38.520 --> 01:35:41.319 Literally, everybody across from me was reading 01:35:41.319 --> 01:35:44.939 this magazine and my face was on the cover. So 01:35:44.939 --> 01:35:47.439 I'm sitting there on the train. And so people 01:35:47.439 --> 01:35:49.479 will read it and they'll put it down. And they 01:35:49.479 --> 01:35:53.239 will look and they will see me. And they will 01:35:53.239 --> 01:35:55.260 twist their face thinking it's not possible that 01:35:55.260 --> 01:35:58.300 this guy will be sitting across on the train. 01:35:59.340 --> 01:36:01.699 And they will start reading again, you know. 01:36:02.159 --> 01:36:05.289 It was really incredible. And then, of course, 01:36:05.310 --> 01:36:07.010 people could find my name. So they would call 01:36:07.010 --> 01:36:09.310 me and say, are you the guy who wrote that? And 01:36:09.310 --> 01:36:10.989 I was like, no, that's not me. So I would deny 01:36:10.989 --> 01:36:13.310 that. And so people would look at me and say, 01:36:13.369 --> 01:36:16.130 you look like that guy who wrote the book. You 01:36:16.130 --> 01:36:18.489 know, a long way gone. Do you think you should 01:36:18.489 --> 01:36:20.729 read the book, young man? They would tell me. 01:36:20.750 --> 01:36:23.489 So I would try and read it, you know. It was 01:36:23.489 --> 01:36:26.449 really funny. So anyway, but it was incredible 01:36:26.449 --> 01:36:30.350 like what transpired, how much people were moved 01:36:30.350 --> 01:36:33.899 by the story, how it touched them. um yeah and 01:36:33.899 --> 01:36:37.399 um i'm glad i did it but it was not easy to to 01:36:37.399 --> 01:36:41.079 write you know no i'm sure well i how i came 01:36:41.079 --> 01:36:45.100 across it was um in starbucks i know that that 01:36:45.100 --> 01:36:47.359 you guys had to deal with that where i think 01:36:47.359 --> 01:36:49.239 was it two dollars from each sale went to unicef 01:36:49.239 --> 01:36:52.880 absolutely yeah absolutely yeah so and and you 01:36:52.880 --> 01:36:54.760 know i i was literally standing there waiting 01:36:54.760 --> 01:36:58.060 to get a coffee so in a typical western human 01:36:58.060 --> 01:37:00.979 mindset you had a you know the book had about 01:37:00.979 --> 01:37:04.050 you know 30 seconds to impress me otherwise it 01:37:04.050 --> 01:37:07.270 was going back on the shelf um and i've never 01:37:07.270 --> 01:37:09.229 bought a book at starbucks i never have since 01:37:09.229 --> 01:37:13.909 um but i i was there with my now ex -wife but 01:37:13.909 --> 01:37:16.470 um and i was like i gotta buy this book and i 01:37:16.470 --> 01:37:19.409 sat there and i am awful at reading usually i 01:37:19.409 --> 01:37:21.930 find it very hard to to finish an entire book 01:37:21.930 --> 01:37:24.810 um unless it's a great one and i sat down and 01:37:24.810 --> 01:37:26.970 i don't i think it was a day i read the entire 01:37:26.970 --> 01:37:30.050 story and then and then reread it and it's because 01:37:30.050 --> 01:37:33.739 like you said it's not It's a sad environment, 01:37:33.920 --> 01:37:36.520 exactly like you said it, but it's a story of 01:37:36.520 --> 01:37:39.140 hope and gratitude and courage and forgiveness 01:37:39.140 --> 01:37:43.539 and all the lessons that every holy book seemingly 01:37:43.539 --> 01:37:45.899 tries to teach. But then there's this division 01:37:45.899 --> 01:37:48.779 and these books are now fought over, which misses 01:37:48.779 --> 01:37:52.119 the whole point, in my opinion. But yeah, it's 01:37:52.119 --> 01:37:55.760 all the core teachings of... the human spirit 01:37:55.760 --> 01:37:59.140 in in one story and it blew me away that's good 01:37:59.140 --> 01:38:01.119 no that was that was the desire for starbucks 01:38:01.119 --> 01:38:03.159 you know they had said that you know i was editing 01:38:03.159 --> 01:38:05.920 the book when they approached us the publisher 01:38:05.920 --> 01:38:07.720 and they said they wanted when people came to 01:38:07.720 --> 01:38:10.760 starbucks to get a cup of coffee to be introduced 01:38:10.760 --> 01:38:13.220 to a reality that's life -changing that's going 01:38:13.220 --> 01:38:16.060 to so they wanted to buy these books and sell 01:38:16.060 --> 01:38:17.680 them at starbucks you know and people were a 01:38:17.680 --> 01:38:20.729 little skeptical And then my response was, well, 01:38:20.829 --> 01:38:23.189 don't we want to reach the Starbucks coffee drinker 01:38:23.189 --> 01:38:24.970 as well? He's a human being. He wants to read 01:38:24.970 --> 01:38:28.109 a good story. So let's have it there. So I'm 01:38:28.109 --> 01:38:30.250 glad. But for a number of years, I couldn't go 01:38:30.250 --> 01:38:33.329 to Starbucks because everybody recognized me. 01:38:33.409 --> 01:38:37.689 So I was like, I'm not getting my... So you're 01:38:37.689 --> 01:38:39.810 going to the competitors to get your coffee. 01:38:40.550 --> 01:38:44.270 Yeah, I made my own coffee at home. Only when 01:38:44.270 --> 01:38:46.649 I went to read at Starbucks, then I got a free 01:38:46.649 --> 01:38:50.340 coffee. I couldn't go for a number of years. 01:38:50.939 --> 01:38:52.640 Well, I wish they'd put it back on there because 01:38:52.640 --> 01:38:55.720 there's a whole generation that hasn't read it 01:38:55.720 --> 01:38:58.180 yet that I think should. And I'm not just saying 01:38:58.180 --> 01:39:01.500 this. If I had to... do a must -read list of 01:39:01.500 --> 01:39:04.220 five books yours would would be in that five 01:39:04.220 --> 01:39:06.479 and if i had to choose just one and there's many 01:39:06.479 --> 01:39:08.859 i've talked about on this show before but if 01:39:08.859 --> 01:39:10.779 there was just one for every human being on the 01:39:10.779 --> 01:39:12.920 planet i would i would choose your one and i 01:39:12.920 --> 01:39:14.899 mean that 100 there's some other ones that are 01:39:14.899 --> 01:39:17.819 fantastic that i talk about all the time um but 01:39:17.819 --> 01:39:21.979 yeah i just i think it's it's amazing now a quick 01:39:21.979 --> 01:39:26.319 question about the story as you no problem as 01:39:26.319 --> 01:39:29.270 you wrote it I've had many writers here, and 01:39:29.270 --> 01:39:31.130 I've actually done some writing myself, and obviously 01:39:31.130 --> 01:39:34.590 a very, very different level of trauma that I've 01:39:34.590 --> 01:39:37.109 seen in my life is more in my careers, basically. 01:39:37.909 --> 01:39:41.449 But I found it very cathartic when I was writing. 01:39:41.569 --> 01:39:43.869 Did you have that experience as you were working 01:39:43.869 --> 01:39:46.869 your way through the story? Yeah, absolutely. 01:39:47.010 --> 01:39:50.989 I mean, I think what it did for me that I didn't 01:39:50.989 --> 01:39:55.130 expect was that it was the first time that it 01:39:55.130 --> 01:39:58.720 allowed me to... actually go back in the story 01:39:58.720 --> 01:40:02.079 on my own terms, remember it, not because of 01:40:02.079 --> 01:40:05.100 a flashback or anything, but go back into it, 01:40:05.159 --> 01:40:07.619 which was incredibly difficult, but allowed me 01:40:07.619 --> 01:40:09.800 to actually observe the things that I'd lived 01:40:09.800 --> 01:40:12.239 through. I'd never really had the time to do 01:40:12.239 --> 01:40:14.859 that, you know? So for the three years that it 01:40:14.859 --> 01:40:18.420 took me to write it, not every day, but I really 01:40:18.420 --> 01:40:20.500 was able to observe my own experience to learn 01:40:20.500 --> 01:40:23.579 more about myself, about what it is I'd been 01:40:23.579 --> 01:40:26.130 through. what had happened to me, and to even 01:40:26.130 --> 01:40:29.409 understand the way I was in the present, why 01:40:29.409 --> 01:40:32.090 I reacted to certain things, you know, because 01:40:32.090 --> 01:40:34.329 I needed to understand the story. So I felt everything 01:40:34.329 --> 01:40:37.130 again. And really, I think it was kind of the, 01:40:37.229 --> 01:40:39.890 not the end of my therapy, but it was kind of 01:40:39.890 --> 01:40:42.590 like a sort of closure to a lot of things, you 01:40:42.590 --> 01:40:44.170 know, a lot of questions I had were answered, 01:40:44.270 --> 01:40:46.770 you know. It was very, very incredibly difficult, 01:40:46.869 --> 01:40:49.029 but I'm glad that I did it. So it really did 01:40:49.029 --> 01:40:50.829 that for me. So when I finished writing it, even 01:40:50.829 --> 01:40:53.029 if I hadn't published it for that alone, I think. 01:40:53.920 --> 01:40:57.340 On a personal level, it significantly changed 01:40:57.340 --> 01:41:00.039 my life because of that, you know. Because there's 01:41:00.039 --> 01:41:02.579 no way I would, I wouldn't sit anybody down and 01:41:02.579 --> 01:41:04.520 tell them that story in one go like that, you 01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:08.359 know. It would be incredibly hard to do. So, 01:41:08.420 --> 01:41:11.500 but writing about it really gave me. And obviously, 01:41:11.619 --> 01:41:13.579 when I was writing also, I had the idea that, 01:41:13.600 --> 01:41:15.060 you know what, there's a lot that happened. I 01:41:15.060 --> 01:41:17.039 don't need to put everything in. I need to give 01:41:17.039 --> 01:41:19.359 enough so people understand what happened. But 01:41:19.359 --> 01:41:20.619 I also thought, okay, there are certain things 01:41:20.619 --> 01:41:23.189 that I need to live up for my family. so that 01:41:23.189 --> 01:41:25.289 only they can know it so i made some decisions 01:41:25.289 --> 01:41:28.029 that also were very helpful you know for my life 01:41:28.029 --> 01:41:31.090 that was really but it does definitely help writing 01:41:31.090 --> 01:41:34.890 has that healing and then also you discover that 01:41:34.890 --> 01:41:37.750 what you're writing about you know uh there's 01:41:37.750 --> 01:41:39.829 this writer jim coaches south african writer 01:41:39.829 --> 01:41:41.949 he says everything you write writes you as you 01:41:41.949 --> 01:41:45.409 write it you know so when i was writing it i 01:41:45.409 --> 01:41:50.270 really realized um that um even though it was 01:41:50.270 --> 01:41:52.329 my story, that the things that had happened to 01:41:52.329 --> 01:41:54.569 me and the lessons that I learned from it were 01:41:54.569 --> 01:41:57.310 bigger than one human being. So I was just a 01:41:57.310 --> 01:42:00.310 small part in the story, really, that it was 01:42:00.310 --> 01:42:03.149 a human story that was a global human story that 01:42:03.149 --> 01:42:06.850 had entrances for everybody in the world to understand 01:42:06.850 --> 01:42:12.250 it. And my life was just a catalyst for some 01:42:12.250 --> 01:42:17.359 of the points that needed to be made. To realize 01:42:17.359 --> 01:42:19.739 that even your own story is more powerful than 01:42:19.739 --> 01:42:22.979 yours was really something very incredible for 01:42:22.979 --> 01:42:26.340 me to arrive at by doing this. I've heard that 01:42:26.340 --> 01:42:28.279 from many of the authors, and obviously I would 01:42:28.279 --> 01:42:30.239 assume it was going to be the same experience 01:42:30.239 --> 01:42:33.119 from you, so it's great to hear that. I want 01:42:33.119 --> 01:42:35.699 to start wrapping up, ask a couple of short questions. 01:42:36.300 --> 01:42:39.880 We talked about A Long Way Gone. Radiance of 01:42:39.880 --> 01:42:42.260 Tomorrow is another title that you've written. 01:42:42.340 --> 01:42:43.920 Are there any others that you're working on that 01:42:43.920 --> 01:42:47.489 you have that I've missed? I mean, I've written 01:42:47.489 --> 01:42:49.689 a lot of short stories and whatnot, but my next 01:42:49.689 --> 01:42:51.609 book is coming out hopefully at the end of the 01:42:51.609 --> 01:42:55.210 year, and it's another novel. So the title now 01:42:55.210 --> 01:42:57.710 is called The Lively Skeletons of Every Season, 01:42:57.829 --> 01:43:00.630 and that's the working title. So it's another 01:43:00.630 --> 01:43:06.189 novel set in an African country. The Radiance 01:43:06.189 --> 01:43:09.109 of Tomorrow was also another story that was set. 01:43:10.090 --> 01:43:12.750 in a fictional place but really looking at why 01:43:12.750 --> 01:43:14.789 people return to places that have been devastated 01:43:14.789 --> 01:43:17.609 by whatever that devastation was and how they 01:43:17.609 --> 01:43:20.569 learned to live there so yeah it used to be my 01:43:20.569 --> 01:43:25.369 third book and then there's a after that I've 01:43:25.369 --> 01:43:27.510 been convinced to write a sequel to A Long Way 01:43:27.510 --> 01:43:30.510 Gone so after the next novel I will pursue that 01:43:30.510 --> 01:43:35.590 so we'll see how to the first book yeah excellent 01:43:35.590 --> 01:43:37.510 now you just touched on something I forgot to 01:43:37.510 --> 01:43:40.449 ask you I'll make it very brief, but you have 01:43:40.449 --> 01:43:43.810 been back to Sierra Leone several times. So I 01:43:43.810 --> 01:43:45.670 won't say what is it like, because obviously 01:43:45.670 --> 01:43:47.970 it must have been traumatizing, but are you seeing 01:43:47.970 --> 01:43:52.869 a growth, a return gently towards the childhood 01:43:52.869 --> 01:43:56.109 that you once knew? Unfortunately, not to the 01:43:56.109 --> 01:43:58.050 childhood that I once knew, but there's definitely 01:43:58.050 --> 01:44:00.810 a departure from the war that had happened that 01:44:00.810 --> 01:44:03.250 has begun. And maybe there are some people in 01:44:03.250 --> 01:44:04.770 Sierra Leone who don't even have a memory of 01:44:04.770 --> 01:44:06.369 it because they were born right after it ended. 01:44:07.149 --> 01:44:10.949 you know so which is good um but in terms of 01:44:10.949 --> 01:44:14.149 uh when the war ended and i started returning 01:44:14.149 --> 01:44:16.590 to syria right away i was living in the us at 01:44:16.590 --> 01:44:19.430 the time and it was difficult because you can 01:44:19.430 --> 01:44:21.630 still see the reminders of the war burned cars 01:44:21.630 --> 01:44:25.550 houses that had bullet holes in them but no you 01:44:25.550 --> 01:44:27.789 cannot see any of this anymore in syria it's 01:44:27.789 --> 01:44:31.810 been long gone um and um but the politics is 01:44:31.810 --> 01:44:34.210 still complicated in the country you know we 01:44:34.210 --> 01:44:37.000 actually just Wrapping up a presidential election 01:44:37.000 --> 01:44:39.399 for a new presidential candidate who should be 01:44:39.399 --> 01:44:44.760 announced any day now. So we have a nonviolent 01:44:44.760 --> 01:44:48.460 election, at least not to the level of war. So 01:44:48.460 --> 01:44:51.399 things are moving up, but it's not going back 01:44:51.399 --> 01:44:54.000 to the childhood that I had. It's going somewhere 01:44:54.000 --> 01:44:56.619 else. People have different expectations. The 01:44:56.619 --> 01:44:59.640 war changed the country tremendously. The population 01:44:59.640 --> 01:45:02.319 shifted from being more village community lifestyle 01:45:02.319 --> 01:45:05.500 to everybody moving to the capital cities. And 01:45:05.500 --> 01:45:08.000 that brings about its own difficulties. People 01:45:08.000 --> 01:45:10.060 don't really know how to live in this environment. 01:45:10.939 --> 01:45:15.100 The cities are crowded. If you live in the countryside 01:45:15.100 --> 01:45:17.500 like I did, you learn how to grow your own food. 01:45:17.699 --> 01:45:19.779 So if you don't have money, you can grow a crop. 01:45:20.460 --> 01:45:22.579 You can harvest it and eat it. Whereas if you 01:45:22.579 --> 01:45:24.119 live in the capital city, you need to have money 01:45:24.119 --> 01:45:27.119 to buy everything. Yeah, as safe as New York 01:45:27.119 --> 01:45:29.739 City. Yeah, even water. You can't just go to 01:45:29.739 --> 01:45:32.739 the stream and get nice water and drink. So that 01:45:32.739 --> 01:45:35.079 brings about its own psychological effect it 01:45:35.079 --> 01:45:37.000 has on people. So the country has changed a lot 01:45:37.000 --> 01:45:40.340 where there's other things. But it's also modern 01:45:40.340 --> 01:45:43.979 time. We need to catch up. But I wish it had 01:45:43.979 --> 01:45:46.199 been done slower than how people are kind of 01:45:46.199 --> 01:45:48.260 jumping into it and they don't understand it. 01:45:48.859 --> 01:45:53.199 Yeah. Now, what took you to Nigeria? I live in 01:45:53.199 --> 01:45:55.960 Nigeria now because my wife also actually works 01:45:55.960 --> 01:45:59.119 in protection. My wife is one of the very few 01:45:59.119 --> 01:46:02.289 people, including myself. She does a full -time 01:46:02.289 --> 01:46:05.590 who's a child protection specialist for UNICEF. 01:46:05.670 --> 01:46:08.170 She's a lawyer by background. And so she basically 01:46:08.170 --> 01:46:10.510 negotiates with warlords to release children 01:46:10.510 --> 01:46:12.689 from armed groups. This is her job that she does 01:46:12.689 --> 01:46:19.489 around the world. Wow. Yeah. I think we're fitting 01:46:19.489 --> 01:46:21.270 for each other because we don't worry about each 01:46:21.270 --> 01:46:23.970 other going to this environment to do that. So 01:46:23.970 --> 01:46:30.100 that works. Otherwise. So basically, yeah, so 01:46:30.100 --> 01:46:32.880 she's posted in Nigeria at the moment. You know 01:46:32.880 --> 01:46:35.100 about Nigeria, what's going on in the north with 01:46:35.100 --> 01:46:37.039 the Boko Haram and all this kind of madness. 01:46:37.159 --> 01:46:40.239 So that's why we're here. We live in the capital. 01:46:40.479 --> 01:46:43.420 And then we go up to the north from time to time, 01:46:43.479 --> 01:46:47.060 both of us, to do that work. Yeah, brilliant. 01:46:47.159 --> 01:46:48.939 Well, I just want to kind of underline a point 01:46:48.939 --> 01:46:51.100 as well. You hear a lot of negativity towards 01:46:51.100 --> 01:46:54.220 the UN, you know, in some of the media outlets. 01:46:55.289 --> 01:46:57.050 Here we are talking to you because of the work 01:46:57.050 --> 01:46:58.909 of the UN and obviously UNICEF specifically. 01:46:59.670 --> 01:47:01.810 And then to hear that you guys are still out 01:47:01.810 --> 01:47:03.750 there saving these kids. And correct me if I'm 01:47:03.750 --> 01:47:07.250 wrong, it's against the international laws of 01:47:07.250 --> 01:47:09.989 war, rules of war to use children as soldiers. 01:47:10.029 --> 01:47:13.149 And that's why it's such a huge deal, apart from 01:47:13.149 --> 01:47:15.289 the human side, of course. But legally, they're 01:47:15.289 --> 01:47:17.210 not supposed to be doing it as well. Absolutely. 01:47:17.390 --> 01:47:20.310 Legally, the idea is that you can use children 01:47:20.310 --> 01:47:23.470 to fight in war that you create. It's a violation. 01:47:25.240 --> 01:47:27.180 And obviously that doesn't mean that people listen 01:47:27.180 --> 01:47:30.100 to it, they do it, but we're able to negotiate 01:47:30.100 --> 01:47:32.079 with certain armed groups because a lot of these 01:47:32.079 --> 01:47:33.960 commanders want to get engaged in politics, they 01:47:33.960 --> 01:47:36.960 want to become politicians later. And so we always 01:47:36.960 --> 01:47:38.560 say to them, well, if you want to be taken seriously 01:47:38.560 --> 01:47:40.340 and play in the international field, you need 01:47:40.340 --> 01:47:42.760 to respect certain international rules, otherwise 01:47:42.760 --> 01:47:46.300 nobody's going to take you seriously. So then 01:47:46.300 --> 01:47:49.000 they start to override things and whatnot. But 01:47:49.000 --> 01:47:51.279 what you say is that every organization has its 01:47:51.279 --> 01:47:53.319 own issues. The UN has a lot of issues that it 01:47:53.319 --> 01:47:57.100 could fix, that it could do well. And they get 01:47:57.100 --> 01:48:00.840 a few things right here and there. But the absence 01:48:00.840 --> 01:48:03.979 of this organization, a lot of other things would 01:48:03.979 --> 01:48:06.359 go unattended to if it wasn't around. That's 01:48:06.359 --> 01:48:09.000 the best way to look at it, I think. Yeah, yeah, 01:48:09.020 --> 01:48:11.560 exactly. Try and show the positive side. All 01:48:11.560 --> 01:48:13.380 right, so we've talked about your books. I'm 01:48:13.380 --> 01:48:15.180 going to ask those wrap -up questions now, even 01:48:15.180 --> 01:48:16.739 though I talked about it about 20 minutes ago 01:48:16.739 --> 01:48:20.619 now. So those are your books. So the first question 01:48:20.619 --> 01:48:23.119 I always ask, are there any books that you love 01:48:23.119 --> 01:48:25.359 that you recommend to other people? It can be 01:48:25.359 --> 01:48:27.699 about what we talked about, or it can be about 01:48:27.699 --> 01:48:30.500 something completely different. Oh, I read a 01:48:30.500 --> 01:48:34.699 lot. I'm an avid reader. I'm always reading new 01:48:34.699 --> 01:48:38.100 things because I believe that... As a writer, 01:48:38.279 --> 01:48:41.119 you have to read to be a good writer, in my opinion, 01:48:41.279 --> 01:48:44.180 which when I teach writing to kids, they don't 01:48:44.180 --> 01:48:49.079 like to hear. They just want to. So I read a 01:48:49.079 --> 01:48:51.920 lot of things. I love a lot of books. What can 01:48:51.920 --> 01:48:54.760 I say? What have I been reading lately? I mean, 01:48:54.800 --> 01:48:57.560 along the issues of understanding historical 01:48:57.560 --> 01:48:59.699 war on the African continent, since I live in 01:48:59.699 --> 01:49:01.939 Nigeria now, one that came to mind is this book 01:49:01.939 --> 01:49:05.710 called Half of a Yellow Sun. It's written by 01:49:05.710 --> 01:49:08.390 this writer called Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. 01:49:08.590 --> 01:49:12.350 She's very well known. It's called Half of a 01:49:12.350 --> 01:49:16.670 Yellow Zone. It's about a war. It's fiction, 01:49:16.729 --> 01:49:18.430 but it's historical fiction about a war that 01:49:18.430 --> 01:49:21.189 happened here in Nigeria many years ago, the 01:49:21.189 --> 01:49:24.510 Biafran War. It's a fantastic, fantastic book. 01:49:25.630 --> 01:49:34.170 I really enjoy it. What else? Since I'm in Nigeria 01:49:34.170 --> 01:49:36.550 now, I guess that's the first thing that came 01:49:36.550 --> 01:49:41.470 to mind for me to talk about. Okay, and we got 01:49:41.470 --> 01:49:44.350 all your books too. So what about a movie and 01:49:44.350 --> 01:49:47.770 or a documentary? Oh, a movie and or a documentary. 01:49:48.369 --> 01:49:53.390 I have a few favorite movies that I really like. 01:49:53.430 --> 01:49:57.260 One of my favorite movies relates to war. and 01:49:57.260 --> 01:50:01.479 resistance is this film called The Battle of 01:50:01.479 --> 01:50:07.079 Algiers. It's an old film. And it's about the 01:50:07.079 --> 01:50:09.899 Algerian revolution kicking out the French. I 01:50:09.899 --> 01:50:12.720 mean, the film is just extraordinary and how 01:50:12.720 --> 01:50:15.359 it was done. And I think it's really one of the 01:50:15.359 --> 01:50:18.760 best films I've seen. And in terms of coming 01:50:18.760 --> 01:50:23.859 -of -age story type of thing, there's this Italian 01:50:23.859 --> 01:50:27.310 film called Cinema Paradiso. It's one of my favorite 01:50:27.310 --> 01:50:30.350 films of all time. It's about this little boy 01:50:30.350 --> 01:50:31.869 who grew up, I guess I relate to it, it's about 01:50:31.869 --> 01:50:33.569 this little boy who grew up in a small Italian 01:50:33.569 --> 01:50:36.529 town, very troublesome, became friends with a 01:50:36.529 --> 01:50:39.630 guy who was like showing the cinema and then 01:50:39.630 --> 01:50:41.329 he grew up to be an adult. I mean, I wouldn't 01:50:41.329 --> 01:50:43.649 give the whole story away, but it's a fantastic, 01:50:43.970 --> 01:50:46.670 it's one of my favorite films of all times. More 01:50:46.670 --> 01:50:51.210 war, Hollywood war type of films. There are two 01:50:51.210 --> 01:50:53.430 films that I really saw that I thought really 01:50:53.430 --> 01:50:58.279 captured war properly. in Hollywood, and it was 01:50:58.279 --> 01:51:00.500 made by the same fellow, but two different sides 01:51:00.500 --> 01:51:03.159 of the story. Clint Eastwood is the one that 01:51:03.159 --> 01:51:06.439 directed this film. One is called Letters from 01:51:06.439 --> 01:51:10.119 Iwo Jima, and then Flags of Our Fathers. It's 01:51:10.119 --> 01:51:12.020 about the same event from the American perspective. 01:51:12.760 --> 01:51:15.020 I think these were one of the most brilliant 01:51:15.020 --> 01:51:17.680 war films made in Hollywood. It really showed 01:51:17.680 --> 01:51:19.739 what war does to human beings when they're there. 01:51:21.780 --> 01:51:23.479 irrespective of where you're coming from, how 01:51:23.479 --> 01:51:25.819 nice your culture or your community is, you know, 01:51:25.819 --> 01:51:28.979 when you find yourself in that madness, what 01:51:28.979 --> 01:51:30.800 happens, and I really love these films, yeah. 01:51:32.020 --> 01:51:34.359 Documentary, what kind of documentary, what is 01:51:34.359 --> 01:51:37.800 the documentary that I've seen that I, oh, there's 01:51:37.800 --> 01:51:40.380 so many documentaries that have been, I can't 01:51:40.380 --> 01:51:42.260 think of a documentary, to be honest, on the 01:51:42.260 --> 01:51:44.539 top of my head. Okay, well, I'll throw one in 01:51:44.539 --> 01:51:46.300 there for a second that I couldn't find, it was 01:51:46.300 --> 01:51:49.399 a shame, but the, The one bling that they said 01:51:49.399 --> 01:51:52.520 online that you actually participated in? I couldn't 01:51:52.520 --> 01:51:54.199 find it anywhere. They've taken it off all the 01:51:54.199 --> 01:51:56.340 internet sites. Yeah, they've taken it off. It 01:51:56.340 --> 01:51:58.000 was a good documentary. I won't say it's the 01:51:58.000 --> 01:51:59.779 best thing I've ever seen, but it was more we're 01:51:59.779 --> 01:52:05.239 trying to make a connection between what we mentioned 01:52:05.239 --> 01:52:07.500 earlier, between resources, like how we connect 01:52:07.500 --> 01:52:09.600 people to what's going on, what seems far away 01:52:09.600 --> 01:52:11.340 from their life, but it's actually close enough, 01:52:11.479 --> 01:52:14.859 you know? So the idea, a friend of mine, Raquel, 01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:17.659 she had this idea that what if we bring some 01:52:17.659 --> 01:52:20.399 of these American top hip -hop artists at the 01:52:20.399 --> 01:52:23.220 time to a place like Sierra Leone so they can 01:52:23.220 --> 01:52:25.380 understand where possibly the diamonds and the 01:52:25.380 --> 01:52:27.619 bling -bling they're wearing come from. So for 01:52:27.619 --> 01:52:29.739 them to understand the context, it wasn't for 01:52:29.739 --> 01:52:31.800 them not to buy diamonds ever in their lives, 01:52:31.899 --> 01:52:34.159 but for them to make us questions when they want 01:52:34.159 --> 01:52:37.659 to buy diamonds so that they can help to, you 01:52:37.659 --> 01:52:40.380 know. to stop people from getting diamonds from 01:52:40.380 --> 01:52:42.239 these sort of places when wars are going on, 01:52:42.319 --> 01:52:44.579 you know? People more conscious, that was the 01:52:44.579 --> 01:52:47.920 idea. It was a very interesting journey to make 01:52:47.920 --> 01:52:50.920 with all these American hip -hop artists. When 01:52:50.920 --> 01:52:53.380 you were a little 10 -year -old hip -hop fan 01:52:53.380 --> 01:52:57.159 doing dance recitals. Yeah, yeah, no, I was laughing 01:52:57.159 --> 01:52:59.779 because, you know, like, I wish I had my own 01:52:59.779 --> 01:53:02.140 camera and I was just filming the filming of 01:53:02.140 --> 01:53:04.720 the documentary, so I think that would have been 01:53:04.720 --> 01:53:08.220 really fantastic. Would have been like letters 01:53:08.220 --> 01:53:11.359 to Iwo Jima, like your perspective. Because people 01:53:11.359 --> 01:53:13.800 have this public persona about how tough things 01:53:13.800 --> 01:53:15.439 are and then you put them inside an environment 01:53:15.439 --> 01:53:17.300 and realize that they are nowhere near as tough 01:53:17.300 --> 01:53:24.640 as they say they are. Yes, yes, exactly. Actually, 01:53:25.140 --> 01:53:27.000 it made me think about this documentary. I think 01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:30.039 it was Sebastian who made it. It's called Restrepo. 01:53:30.960 --> 01:53:33.720 It's a really fantastic documentary. I just remember 01:53:33.720 --> 01:53:39.479 that one. oh yeah i mean talking about getting 01:53:39.479 --> 01:53:41.960 people there you know and really having them 01:53:41.960 --> 01:53:48.239 experience you know what what is going on when 01:53:48.239 --> 01:53:51.380 you know suppose these young guys live and go 01:53:51.380 --> 01:53:55.119 and fight a war you know yeah and again they're 01:53:55.119 --> 01:53:56.479 just fighting for their life just like you were 01:53:56.479 --> 01:53:58.300 saying before they were stuck there they didn't 01:53:58.300 --> 01:54:00.220 start the war and those poor guys are up on the 01:54:00.220 --> 01:54:02.380 hindu kush just trying to stay alive and go home 01:54:02.380 --> 01:54:05.199 to the family Then they form a brotherhood. That's 01:54:05.199 --> 01:54:07.079 one thing that's really important about this 01:54:07.079 --> 01:54:09.439 kind of thing. You form a brotherhood. You form 01:54:09.439 --> 01:54:12.020 a friendship that's so much deeper. Sometimes 01:54:12.020 --> 01:54:14.319 even blood relations because you've seen the 01:54:14.319 --> 01:54:16.699 best and worst of each other in these trenches. 01:54:17.000 --> 01:54:23.760 It changes who you are. I really love that. I 01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:25.659 wish you could do more of these kinds of stuff. 01:54:26.159 --> 01:54:30.859 Nowadays, I think. I think there's a desire for 01:54:30.859 --> 01:54:34.000 it. I really do. with the stories i've had on 01:54:34.000 --> 01:54:35.960 here i mean obviously you know yours especially 01:54:35.960 --> 01:54:38.420 yours has been extremely powerful but all the 01:54:38.420 --> 01:54:39.800 people i've had on you know whether they're just 01:54:39.800 --> 01:54:42.899 coming from a fitness background or you know 01:54:42.899 --> 01:54:46.899 mental health or they're a soldier um these stories 01:54:46.899 --> 01:54:49.760 are incredible and and you see the the rubbish 01:54:49.760 --> 01:54:52.220 that we get you know the newspaper stands and 01:54:52.220 --> 01:54:55.539 the the tvs and and the social media and this 01:54:55.539 --> 01:54:59.159 is one of my goals is is to bring these incredible 01:54:59.159 --> 01:55:01.359 stories that are inspiring me however i've come 01:55:01.359 --> 01:55:04.819 across them and and bring them back to the forefront 01:55:04.819 --> 01:55:08.520 because this yeah you leave i leave let me be 01:55:08.520 --> 01:55:10.920 selfish i leave a conversation with someone like 01:55:10.920 --> 01:55:14.500 you a better person you know whereas if i'm watching 01:55:14.500 --> 01:55:17.579 you know the 15th season of crap fishing i don't 01:55:17.579 --> 01:55:24.060 think i'm gonna be a better person yeah i know 01:55:24.060 --> 01:55:26.180 but that but i mean it was what we were talking 01:55:26.180 --> 01:55:28.939 about earlier right like you know i mean i've 01:55:28.939 --> 01:55:30.600 come to this conclusion that like you know there 01:55:30.600 --> 01:55:33.029 are lots of really good people in the world, 01:55:33.149 --> 01:55:37.289 right? But we are not committed to that goodness, 01:55:37.510 --> 01:55:41.449 you know? And there are few really bad folks 01:55:41.449 --> 01:55:43.689 in the world, but they're very committed to disrupting 01:55:43.689 --> 01:55:45.689 the world, right? So they succeed most of the 01:55:45.689 --> 01:55:49.430 time. But if all of us decide, you know, we're 01:55:49.430 --> 01:55:51.369 going to put our own little version of goodness 01:55:51.369 --> 01:55:53.949 back into the world so that, you know, which 01:55:53.949 --> 01:55:55.529 is what I think you're doing with these sort 01:55:55.529 --> 01:55:57.689 of interviews that you said, you know, these 01:55:57.689 --> 01:56:00.470 human conversations allow people to actually 01:56:00.470 --> 01:56:05.130 think. to feel, to connect, you know, to realize 01:56:05.130 --> 01:56:08.670 how worthy the humanity is, how good it is to 01:56:08.670 --> 01:56:11.789 share that humanity with others, you know. It 01:56:11.789 --> 01:56:14.510 changes people's lives, you know, you know. Yeah, 01:56:14.550 --> 01:56:17.470 exactly. You never know who's listening or who 01:56:17.470 --> 01:56:20.350 is reading or who, you know, and what it's going 01:56:20.350 --> 01:56:23.250 to do to them, you know. You never know, you 01:56:23.250 --> 01:56:26.090 know. Yeah, you're a living example of that. 01:56:26.510 --> 01:56:29.859 Yeah, absolutely. But so thank you for this now. 01:56:29.880 --> 01:56:31.260 Thank you for what you're doing because you know 01:56:31.260 --> 01:56:33.279 We all have these choices where we could just 01:56:33.279 --> 01:56:35.020 go on with our lives because probably were successful 01:56:35.020 --> 01:56:37.760 at it And we don't need to care about what anything 01:56:37.760 --> 01:56:42.680 you know We had these choices, but you know Like 01:56:42.680 --> 01:56:44.739 you like other people who decide, you know, let's 01:56:44.739 --> 01:56:46.359 put something back into the mix. That's gonna 01:56:46.359 --> 01:56:49.199 Make a difference and you know, that's that's 01:56:49.199 --> 01:56:51.220 what changes the world. Yeah. Well, like I said, 01:56:51.300 --> 01:56:53.359 I'm just I'm just here standing in front of microphone 01:56:53.359 --> 01:56:55.920 asking people that tell their stories but but 01:56:55.920 --> 01:56:58.260 yeah you're true it's true though you know if 01:56:58.260 --> 01:57:01.319 if you can connect these amazing people with 01:57:01.319 --> 01:57:04.340 with as i say the ear holes of the world then 01:57:04.340 --> 01:57:08.039 um you know we will i mean you know be the uh 01:57:08.039 --> 01:57:10.859 i forget what's the gandhi quote now be what 01:57:10.859 --> 01:57:13.880 you want to see in the world see in the world 01:57:13.880 --> 01:57:16.779 absolutely exactly so and on top of you on your 01:57:16.779 --> 01:57:18.460 birthday i want to give you a birthday shout 01:57:18.460 --> 01:57:21.850 out happy birthday Talk with me about all these 01:57:21.850 --> 01:57:23.750 things, you know. Well, thank you. Like I said, 01:57:23.829 --> 01:57:27.130 I genuinely was excited. I'll have a drink later 01:57:27.130 --> 01:57:29.550 and toast. There we go. We can put the video 01:57:29.550 --> 01:57:34.510 back on Skype. All right. Well, there's a couple 01:57:34.510 --> 01:57:37.510 more questions and then I will let you go. The 01:57:37.510 --> 01:57:40.609 next one is, is there a person that you can think 01:57:40.609 --> 01:57:43.109 of that you would recommend to be another guest 01:57:43.109 --> 01:57:52.819 on this podcast? Oh, yeah. Wow, I mean, I'll 01:57:52.819 --> 01:57:54.939 be very selfish. I would say my wife probably, 01:57:55.060 --> 01:57:58.319 but I don't know if she'll want to. Because I 01:57:58.319 --> 01:58:00.319 think she's done some really incredible work, 01:58:00.380 --> 01:58:03.199 you know, in the sense that, you know, the work 01:58:03.199 --> 01:58:04.779 that she does, there are very few women who do 01:58:04.779 --> 01:58:07.359 this type of work, you know. So you imagine she's 01:58:07.359 --> 01:58:09.640 been doing it since she's in her 20s, 20 -something 01:58:09.640 --> 01:58:12.319 year old. And I'm just saying it because my wife, 01:58:12.460 --> 01:58:15.500 drop -dead gorgeous, beautiful woman, lawyer 01:58:15.500 --> 01:58:21.340 background, you know, grew up in Paris. In the 01:58:21.340 --> 01:58:25.039 US, you know, Congolese, Iranian mix, you know, 01:58:25.079 --> 01:58:27.439 is how beautiful she is. And then she goes and 01:58:27.439 --> 01:58:29.739 negotiates with Wallace to release children from 01:58:29.739 --> 01:58:33.340 all over the world. Yeah, I would say, I would 01:58:33.340 --> 01:58:35.800 love to have her on. You don't have to sell it 01:58:35.800 --> 01:58:38.880 to me. If she were... I'll try to convince her. 01:58:39.060 --> 01:58:40.960 I'll try to convince her. All right. Yeah, we'll 01:58:40.960 --> 01:58:44.399 work on her. I think she has some charm over 01:58:44.399 --> 01:58:48.199 her. She's still... Yeah, I'll exercise some 01:58:48.199 --> 01:58:50.539 of them. Brilliant. All right. Well, I will take 01:58:50.539 --> 01:58:52.899 that as a fantastic answer. I mean, that sounds 01:58:52.899 --> 01:58:55.859 like an incredible woman to get on the show. 01:58:56.119 --> 01:58:58.420 All right. So the very last thing before we just 01:58:58.420 --> 01:59:00.739 talk about where to find the books and your work, 01:59:00.819 --> 01:59:04.079 what do you do these days to decompress when 01:59:04.079 --> 01:59:09.279 you want to blow off some steam? I like to play 01:59:09.279 --> 01:59:13.020 football, soccer. So I like to play a nice game. 01:59:13.039 --> 01:59:18.239 I also like running. I go for long runs. In fact, 01:59:18.239 --> 01:59:20.439 I was thinking tomorrow I want to do 10 miles. 01:59:20.579 --> 01:59:24.100 So sometimes I run 10 miles, half miles, something 01:59:24.100 --> 01:59:27.659 like that. So I run and I play football and then 01:59:27.659 --> 01:59:30.180 I listen to music. I like dancing, so I listen 01:59:30.180 --> 01:59:31.979 to good music. I'm in Nigeria where the music 01:59:31.979 --> 01:59:34.000 is absolutely incredible. So you can really go 01:59:34.000 --> 01:59:36.479 to a nice place and dance. So these are the things 01:59:36.479 --> 01:59:39.600 I do to decompress. And usually on the weekend, 01:59:39.680 --> 01:59:42.180 I try not to. There are so many things going 01:59:42.180 --> 01:59:43.739 on in the world. So usually on the weekend, sometimes 01:59:43.739 --> 01:59:46.310 I try on Fridays particularly. saturdays i try 01:59:46.310 --> 01:59:49.869 to just turn things off and just have fun and 01:59:49.869 --> 01:59:53.750 return to the world again on sunday and see what 01:59:53.750 --> 01:59:58.649 has been broken while i've been gone well i need 01:59:58.649 --> 02:00:00.510 to do that more often i'm kind of stuck on my 02:00:00.510 --> 02:00:03.010 devices with this whole whole podcast thing so 02:00:03.010 --> 02:00:05.649 i uh i gotta take your advice on that one take 02:00:05.649 --> 02:00:08.170 the weekend off yeah no from times i gotta take 02:00:08.170 --> 02:00:10.090 a deal because when you come back refreshing 02:00:10.090 --> 02:00:13.010 you're ready to face it you know you know um 02:00:13.010 --> 02:00:17.609 yeah that's what i do brilliant all right so 02:00:17.609 --> 02:00:19.810 the very last thing then so where you know what 02:00:19.810 --> 02:00:23.090 which uh sites do you recommend for people to 02:00:23.090 --> 02:00:25.130 find the books and then are there any other sites 02:00:25.130 --> 02:00:28.310 social media any any other arena on on the internet 02:00:28.310 --> 02:00:31.109 that that people can find you or or even just 02:00:31.109 --> 02:00:32.810 causes that you're trying to bring to everyone's 02:00:32.810 --> 02:00:36.270 attention uh well i mean my books can be found 02:00:36.270 --> 02:00:40.609 in any bookstore really but uh independent non 02:00:40.609 --> 02:00:44.539 -independence on amazon anywhere you can find 02:00:44.539 --> 02:00:47.560 the books and buy them. So that's what I would 02:00:47.560 --> 02:00:50.720 say. What else? Where you can find me, I have 02:00:50.720 --> 02:00:53.319 a Twitter handle, it's the verified one, at Ishmael 02:00:53.319 --> 02:00:55.239 Bear, because there are others that pretend to 02:00:55.239 --> 02:00:59.119 be me. And then I have a website, which is www 02:00:59.119 --> 02:01:01.979 .ismahelbear .com, and basically on there and 02:01:01.979 --> 02:01:03.739 on my Twitter, it highlights the things that 02:01:03.739 --> 02:01:06.439 I'm up to, where I am, what I'm doing. I tend 02:01:06.439 --> 02:01:09.359 to tweet about these things. Yeah, so that's 02:01:09.359 --> 02:01:12.869 the best way. Brilliant. Well, I have all those 02:01:12.869 --> 02:01:15.430 links on the webpage that I do with this podcast 02:01:15.430 --> 02:01:18.770 can find at jamesgearing .com. So Ishmael, I 02:01:18.770 --> 02:01:21.170 just want to say thank you so much. I'm always 02:01:21.170 --> 02:01:24.210 a little worried when I interview someone I haven't 02:01:24.210 --> 02:01:27.510 got to really talk to before as to the time constraints 02:01:27.510 --> 02:01:28.949 and everything. And here we are sitting right 02:01:28.949 --> 02:01:32.789 at two hours of conversation. So thank you so 02:01:32.789 --> 02:01:34.430 much for being so generous. I hope I haven't 02:01:34.430 --> 02:01:38.319 kept you from something. i didn't want to cut 02:01:38.319 --> 02:01:40.520 this story short your story is incredible you 02:01:40.520 --> 02:01:43.279 who you are and and the journey you've become 02:01:43.279 --> 02:01:45.739 and how you've inspired me personally selfishly 02:01:45.739 --> 02:01:49.539 um i know it's going to inspire so many people 02:01:49.539 --> 02:01:51.819 so i i just want to say that thank you so much 02:01:51.819 --> 02:01:53.600 thank you thank you as well for doing this on 02:01:53.600 --> 02:01:55.979 your birthday and happy birthday again go celebrate 02:01:56.729 --> 02:02:00.930 Yeah, I will. Drink a pint from me or something. 02:02:01.109 --> 02:02:03.409 That's how we say in the UK, drink a pint from 02:02:03.409 --> 02:02:06.850 me. It is. It's funny because you're saying like 02:02:06.850 --> 02:02:09.369 football and then correcting it to soccer and 02:02:09.369 --> 02:02:11.210 then flat and then you said apartment. Exactly. 02:02:11.909 --> 02:02:14.449 Because I just came back from London. I just 02:02:14.449 --> 02:02:16.930 came back the other day from London. I was in 02:02:16.930 --> 02:02:18.850 London for about a week. So, you know, and I'm 02:02:18.850 --> 02:02:20.810 from a British colony. So when I'm in London, 02:02:20.850 --> 02:02:23.250 all my British English kicked back in. So then 02:02:23.250 --> 02:02:25.500 when I'm talking to... people from the u .s i 02:02:25.500 --> 02:02:29.420 have to realize that oh i'm talking yeah exactly 02:02:29.420 --> 02:02:32.920 i have to be bilingual over here absolutely yeah 02:02:32.920 --> 02:02:37.460 all right well thank you again and um i would 02:02:37.460 --> 02:02:40.180 love to you know to to reconnect at some point 02:02:40.180 --> 02:02:42.800 and maybe you know in the future do do a touch 02:02:42.800 --> 02:02:45.479 base and and i'd love to get your uh your wife 02:02:45.479 --> 02:02:47.579 on if she was wanting to and if she's not i totally 02:02:47.579 --> 02:02:49.159 understand okay i'll talk to her and see what 02:02:49.159 --> 02:02:51.260 she says and you are where you are in florida 02:02:51.260 --> 02:02:54.779 right you say you're in uh yes Yes. So, yeah, 02:02:54.859 --> 02:02:56.640 if ever you're coming over to Florida, please 02:02:56.640 --> 02:02:59.539 let me know. I'd love to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So 02:02:59.539 --> 02:03:00.979 talk to Tom, I guess, if you're going to leave 02:03:00.979 --> 02:03:02.619 one of these universities out there. So if I 02:03:02.619 --> 02:03:03.659 do, I'd certainly love to.