This episode is sponsored by a company who has
truly found a solution to an age -old problem,
and that is Carna Bunker Gear. One of the most
prevalent conversations in the fire service is
should we or should we not train in our bunker
gear? Now, the answer to both is yes. As most
of us are aware, the carcinogens from structure
fires, of which there are over 260 that are dangerous
to human health, not to mention the PFAS and
other chemicals that are within our gear from
the manufacturing process, are factors that we
obviously want to minimize. Now, the other side
of the coin is that we do need to train in our
gear. There is no way to acclimatize the heat
retention and lack of mobility than to actually
wear the gear. So seeing this problem himself,
firefighter and exercise physiologist Ryan Conley
developed a carcinogen -free gear at a much lower
cost that can be used in non -IDLH atmosphere
and training that does not require puncture or
tear resistance. Now, as someone who always trained
in gear myself throughout my career, I wish this
technology was around then. and I got to test
it personally while coaching my tactical athlete
class a few weeks ago and can testify that it
not only simulates the heat retention of frontline
gear but also the lack of mobility, which is
imperative at operating at a high level on the
fire ground. Now some additional benefits include
being able to doff the gear when you do get banged
out for a call, increasing the lifespan of your
frontline bunker gear, And then also public education.
Think of the number of times that we allow, for
example, schoolchildren to wear our gear when
it's infused with all these carcinogens. So there
are so many real world applications for a fraction
of the cost of IDLH rated bunker gear. So if
you want to hear the whole story behind this,
listen to my conversation with Ryan Conley on
episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast.
or go to carnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name
is James Gearing, and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome on the show former ice skater,
ice skating coach, and the founder of Vestibular
Training Services, Sheila Thielen. Now, in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from
her journey into the world of ice skating as
a child, entering the world of coaching, discovering
the behavioral and mental health elements of
youth athletes, her revelation that the spinning
that they do in ice skating was actually helping
a host of other issues, understanding the vestibular
system, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, performance
amidst chaos, vertigo, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Sheila
Thielen. Enjoy. Well, Sheila, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you so much
for the exposure to what we're going to talk
about today in St. Pete a few weeks ago. And
secondly, I want to welcome you today onto the
Behind the Shield podcast. Well, I'm honored.
I'm so excited to be here. And it's really important
work that you're doing. So I'm truly honored
to get to be a part of it. Thank you. Thank you.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? I'm in Minneapolis. I'm about an hour
north of Minneapolis, Minnesota, and it's cold.
It's snowing. It snows here a lot. So like I
was dressed really warm in these podcasts, but
like it is really chilly here. So it's even cold
in Florida. I mean, not that it's anywhere near
your cold, but we were 27 degrees last night,
which for Florida sounds pretty chilly. So you're
going to die. All right. Well, you have such
an interesting journey into the technology that
we're going to talk about in this conversation.
So let's start the very beginning. Tell me where
you were born. And tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. So I was born in Minneapolis,
you know, kind of the we've always been in the
Minnesota area. And I'm an only child, you know,
which is both a good story and a bad story. But
I learned some early leadership in that. I got
married. I'm a super happy married person. That's
where I talk about a lot of my success comes
from my husband, who's fabulous and super supportive
and is in on these projects. He helps me in so
many ways. I had two kids. They're adults now,
so they're no hassle yet. Now they help me. So
I talk about all those years of parenting. Now
they're helping me. So I'm really grateful for
that. I've had a really fabulous life, you know,
and I've really achieved, especially in figure
skating, like as a master coach and as a business
owner and all the different projects I've done
and all the Olympic coaches and general coaches
that I've worked with all over the world. It's
been amazing. But this transition to this new
project for the general public has been fascinating.
And I always talk about, like, you talk about
having companies and your friends being supportive.
And I had a whole batch of coaching buddies be
like, stay in your lane. Only stay in figure
skating. You're already, you know, tops of the
group. Why do more? And the concept of getting
out of my lane, trying something totally new
because I knew I could help so many people has
just been this. this really challenging project,
you know, but I had a lot of support and I had
a lot of no support, you know, at the same time.
So it's been fun to see how I ebbed and flowed
through it yet, but how my friends and my family
have seen the projects. I want to go back to
your early life of just while we're talking about
the skating community, there was a tragic plane
accident a little while ago. Talk to me about
the impact of that on your community. So on that
plane were some of the top, top coaches in the
future of figure skating. And my personal part
to the story is I was friends with one of the
coaches. You know, we really crossed paths through
many other coaches. Amazing coach, you know,
even with Disney on Ice as a performer. Famous.
Yet at the same time, the entire Livingston family
was lost on that plane. And the future, but the
concept of the whole family gone was, it was
hard. I was completely convinced that day that
somewhere they had a dog and a hamster. I don't
know where I came up with it, but I was convinced
they had a dog and a hamster somewhere in daycare
because they'd been gone for a week. the developmental
camp and nationals. And I thought for sure, like
I was ready to get in the car, drive to Virginia
and go track down their dog and their hamster.
And, um, and so then I convinced the entire East
coast coaching staffs that we had to go find
the dog. And, and actually I, the dog was with
the nanny luckily, and the hamster had died a
couple months before. So like, you know, there
was no hamster, but at the same time, like, It
was it was crushing to lose all that talent and
all of these children's futures, you know, I
mean, developmental teams and kids and families.
And, of course, the big story coming out of it
even this week at U .S. Nationals is that Max,
who lost both of his parents, qualified for the
senior men's Olympic team. You know, like to
rise from. the flame, you know, I mean, it's
very Phoenix like story. So there's, there's
so much in developing them, but seeing them as
people and athletes and children and, and where
that, where that falls, you know, it's just,
it was hard. I saw the video of Max holding the
parents of his, excuse me, the photo of his parents
after he won that. And it was, I mean, this is
the beautiful thing about tribalism and community
in a positive way is, you know, you don't have
to know these people to feel the heartbreak,
you know, and like you said, especially an entire
family. I mean, that's absolutely tragic. So
just kind of wanted to hit that tangent while,
you know, something recent. Yeah, it was hard.
It's still hard. Reality, the real parts of our
lives, you know, and all the pieces that don't
matter and all the pieces that do matter. Absolutely.
Well, going back to your timeline then. So what
did your parents do when you were young? What
were their professions? So my mom was a stay
-at -home mom, but then eventually became a realtor
and then a real estate closer. And my dad was
early, early computers, like the early world
of computers. And so it was kind of. Cool to
see that growing up. Yet at the same time, I
grew up in a volatile family. You know, my dad
was a manic, depressive alcoholic. And I was
joking. I was born just so that he could get
out of Vietnam. So I'm not sure how much he was
really into parenting. Yet at the same time,
he got out of Vietnam. Go, Gary. But the twist
is he died quite young. He died at like 51. And
so it was this transition early in my marriage
of I had this new baby and then my dad died.
And so we I feel like my mom turned into my second
kid. And so there's a weird leadership twist
in seeing your parents, you know, come and go
also. And so I learned quickly. about taking
care of myself that if something happened to
my spouse you know and and i think there's a
really hard transition especially as you see
your parents that what your mom knows compared
to what your dad knows and when one is gone how
do they survive it's it's sad yet so interesting
how many people have come on here and i'm literally
about 1200 now where there is generational trauma
i think it's almost impossible to be a human
being and not have an element of that and some
is obviously more acute than others you know
some might just not be feeling loved by a parent
or one parent leaves or you know it might be
more you know um domestic abuse and sexual abuse
and some of these more acute things that we hear
but this is a common theme and what's so beautiful
about these conversations today is that people
are finally opening up about this stuff because
i think if you can actually look at these falling
dominoes Our generation now can say, I'm not
going to let that fall on my child. I'm going
to minimize the impact on my child. So as tragic
as it is hearing how many, you know, turbulent
households a lot of my guests grew up in, the
fact that we can see it, acknowledge it, forgive
our parents for whatever happened and then, you
know, grow and heal from it. I think it's so
important. Absolutely. And I feel like I really.
moved on i really grew up quickly i you know
i stood on my own two feet um my favorite story
is my dad i remember asking at 18 how much money
they'd save for me to go to college and he looked
at me like why you're a girl why would we send
you to college And I was like, what? You know,
like this was new news to me. Yeah, like what?
That was crazy. And so he bet me 500 bucks I
couldn't graduate from college in four years
because I was just a girl and I wasn't going
to be serious about this. And I still remember
holding that certified check for $500, you know,
after I put myself through school. But the concept
of, I also feel like standing on your own two
feet. You know, being strong, stepping forward,
no matter what the situation was, we we I dug
it out, you know, but but the choices that I
made along the way, I felt were really key. Like
I did get that college degree. You know, I did
live overseas. I did. I did marry well. And I
want to go back to that piece, like the marrying
the perfect person is what really so much of
my success lies from, because I could. raise
the kids. And my husband really, really, really
participated. So I could take on these projects.
I wasn't buried in my own life. And that teamwork,
you know, so I was talking about the team of
Scott and Sheila really could build a lot, no
matter what the situation, whether it was good
or bad or my mom or my dad or his parents or
Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, you know, like all
of the pieces that were happening around us.
We really had a stability in our family that
The others didn't. When you reflect back now,
what are the ingredients that created such a
great relationship in your marriage? We're both
here to pitch in. We're both in the project together.
And we almost had to team up to fight our own
families. Team Scott and Sheila got things done
in a fun and happy and loving way that we really
dug in. how we covered ours and um initially
our first child uh he was quite sickly as a child
and so nobody would babysit for us nobody you
know so we talked about like we covered 24 7
for about four or five years and he perked up
he's fine he's healthy it's no big deal but um
And for a couple of years, I'm like, I have an
eye twitch, man. Like, I haven't slept for a
couple of days. And, you know, but I always felt
like it was our stability that could allow more
stability around us. And, you know, we did projects
and we home reno'd and we, I got really good
at a chop saw. You know, I'm really good at laying
tile. You know, like we did projects together
and built out houses and finished houses and
had a great time doing it. You know, so like
I always look at it with I've had a really fun
life, especially in the last 35 years. You know,
it's been really fun to the point like like you
really offset some of the crazy of my childhood.
It all kind of. Oh, six, seven, you know, like
it's totally fine. You know, like I'm, it's,
I'm a really happy adult. And I think that that's
from a great marriage. How old were you when
you started ice skating? I was old. I was probably
about 10, nine or 10. So that was significantly
old in the sport. So many started two, three,
four. You know, it was really a common starting
age in the sport. And there were limited funds.
You know, I got good, but I don't know that I
was never great. You know, I was never like a
great athlete. I feel like I became a better
coach than I was a skater. But, you know, I learned
a lot. And I was really coachable. So as I met
other high -level coaches, I really learned from
them. It changed my entire career path. I also
am really weirdly good at fixing things. So if
you show me a problem, I'm really good at fixing
it. So if you show me an athlete with a problem,
I'm really good at fixing the technique and getting
them to move correctly. So I'm really good at
fixing things. So I can look at a problem and
I'm a fixer. And that was really fun. And some
of the early products we came up with. bungee
cords tied from their hand to their foot to make
a move as a unit. It was one of my early products
called Champion Cords. But like I learned the
basics of like a patent and, you know, packaging
and pricing. And, you know, a lot of people helped
me in the early years of that company coming
forward. And that really, of course, then you
learn all the other things. You learn about websites.
You learn about. Visa cards, how to take visa
cards. You remember the olden days? You know,
like I learned all that. All those little pieces
of production and manufacturing and how to do
it here in the States was really paramount in
how I built out the other pieces of my other
companies. You mentioned about starting late.
In your opinion, what is the right age for a
young skater if they are looking to actually
get to kind of Olympic level? Three, four, five,
yeah. Like, we're talking young, you know. I
actually, at one point, I coached Herb Brooks'
grandchildren from Miracle on Ice, the really
famous hockey coach, Miracle on Ice, Herb Brooks,
who's from Minnesota. So I got to work with Kelly's
kids, but the two twin boys, they were doing
crossovers at two years old. Like, we had two
-year -olds out there learning crossovers and
being really forward and backward crossovers
at two. phenomenal skaters the boys really turned
into phenomenal skaters but it's a sport you
start young because especially that gliding motion
is so not natural that you really takes an entire
lifetime to still learn that motion so what made
you start at 10 years old and and how far behind
do you think you were as far as that traditional
track Oh, miles behind, miles behind. But I loved
it. It was fun. It started out as a Christmas
gift. My grandparents had got me ice skates.
It's Minnesota. Had bought me a pair of my own
ice skates. I didn't have to rent them. I got
my own skates. And it came with a skating lesson.
You know, they signed me up for Saturday skating
lessons. And I loved it, you know. And I still,
as I skate across the ice today. I'm like, I
can't believe I know how to do this. It's so
much fun. Skating is so much fun. And my brain
just lit up and enjoyed it and thought it was
fun and challenging and hard and unlimited funds.
And could I watch other kids and figure out how
they did it? And my friends were all skaters.
And I was talking about, like, I don't go to
high school reunions, but. Every time I go to
a skating competition, all my friends are there.
So the skating community really was phenomenal
and really kind and loving. And I whether you
were winning or losing, you know, the group was
lovely. So, yeah, I started out at the Burnsville,
Minnesota Valley Figure Skating Club, you know,
as a kid. And the club's still there. You know,
I think of them often, but I I've kind of moved
up. I've talked about this a lot. There are a
lot of sports in the States where it's pretty
evident that a high school or a college is more
concerned about the performance of that athlete
than the wellness and longevity of the athlete.
And you meet a lot of people in their late 20s,
early 30s that are now very deconditioned, don't
play any sport and got hurt or burned out on
sports when they were at that high level. Do
you see the same thing in ice skating or is it
something that people tend to keep doing? A lot
of them continue on, you know, like they still
do edge class years later, kind of like ballerinas
that still do bar class. I have a lot that still
continue to come back and visit, like come see
their coaches, especially as they head off to
college and get married and have kids. We get
invited to all those events, which really I think
talks about. coaching you know and really understanding
you know that there's a kid involved um they're
not replaceable um and i i've so many fantastic
former athletes that still stay in contact but
even during like christmas break or easter break
or they're back home from college that they're
back skating with us and hanging out and and
that always feels so good like like the kid misses
us um and i That's an honor. That's the whole
point of coaching. The word coach actually comes
from the old British example of you get into
the little coach with the horse and the carriage,
and it would take you from one location to your
destination that you're choosing to go to. That's
what a coach is. And so that's what's our job
as a coach is to get the athlete from here to
their goals. And that's the importance of being
a coach is getting them to their destination.
When I think of skating and I used to skate,
I don't know how this even happened, but I went
to a junior school and they did a great job.
I think it was in the summer. We would go to
the pool on a Wednesday. And then in the winter,
we would go to an ice rink, which was, you know,
a little ways away. So as young kids were exposed
to all these different things, I was very, very
fortunate. But even at that very low level, because
we weren't really being coached, we just got
to skate around. You know, ice is very unforgiving
when you fall. So how were you able to safely
build up an athlete's confidence so that fear
after a bad fall didn't just make them want to
leave the ice for good? That's an excellent question.
I don't know. We all got over it because it's
a falling sport. It's very much a falling sport.
And there are times on a session I fell 40 times,
50 times. Like I fell a lot as a kid. And it's
a trial and error, but it's a learning. And I
have to say it's almost impossible to be perfect
at it. So the sport kind of draws in people that
are perfectionists and forces them not to be
perfectionists. So watch them struggle, you know,
and that I find fascinating in the sport. But
there's a resiliency to it. There's a, you know,
you fall down, you get back up. You fall down,
you get back up. You fell in front of 3 ,000
people. Well, you got back up, you know, and
you still stood there and you still curtsied
and someone interviewed you and you didn't cry,
you know. Wow, it's a tough sport, you know,
so. And I always talked about, too, that like
you can always tell when someone screws up. You
don't have to know anything about figure skating.
They fell. It's obvious. Like it's an obvious
error, you know, even on a step or a spin or,
you know, like it's a super obvious error sport.
You can you can tell they screwed up. So let's
go to the conversation that you and I had when
we first spoke about. The interaction with coaches
from other sports. and your observation of your
athletes versus some of the issues they were
having with their children. So the story backs
up to about 10 years ago. I was in Lake Placid
speaking at an event. So I'm there, and we're
back at the hotel, adult beverages. That all
seems to be part of the story, which is weird
because I don't drink that much, but we're adult
beverages. Back at the hotel, and there's a whole
group of coaches kind of standing in the area
at Lake Placid, and we're all talking about.
problems within our sports and the coach next
to me says he has a problem with dizzy athletes
and I'm looked at him like what you know like
no like in figure skating even the little ones
like you can spin them like crazy and when you
watch my videos I'm talking spin them like crazy
and they don't get dizzy and I looked at him
like oh that's so weird you know like but but
that started like the little red light in my
head and then the next coach talked about he
had some pretty dumb athletes And I looked at
him like, what? No, no, not figure skaters. Like
those little figure skaters. I mean, I have eighth
graders taking college trig, you know, like what?
You know, like, so they kind of went around this
whole list of problems and I had none of them.
And I was like, wait a second here. So like the
lights are going off in my head. Like, what are
we doing differently than all the other sports?
And the answer is spinning. And even ballerinas
don't spin like we do in figure skating. So,
like, I started really looking at the next five
years of, like, why was spinning special? And
what did spinning do compared to all the other
sports and all the other academic processes?
So I started really digging in, let's just say
it, in an obsessive kind of way. Anyone that
would talk to me, doctors, PTs, OTs, like anybody
that would talk to me about what we thought was
happening in the brain from spinning and what
was it doing that was magical compared to all
the other sports. And that is going to take the
whole discussion to the vestibular system, you
know, which is that inner ear. So it's right
inside my ear. So here's like my eardrum. Here's
my eardrum. It vibrates into the vestibular system
and it rolls out to the cochlea. So you'll see
like a kid with a cochlea implant who's deaf.
But this little puppy controls everything. And
that's where I deep dive into complete obsession
of how can we train this and help this. And treat
it like a muscle, like you would in bench press
or a leg press or running. How can we train this
as much as we train the body and change people's
lives? And it all comes to this. So these experts
talk to me about the fluid and the crystals that
they think are responsible for this application.
So the vestibular system, they always refer to
it as three semicircular canals. And on the inside
of the canal is like a hair follicle. And on
the outside is what little lumpy chunks that
they call crystals. And they're like little chunky
things. So you'll hear people say, ah, I have
crystal problems. And what's happened is that
those crystals have moved out of the outer chamber
and down into the gel. So it's kind of like trying
to drive data. around a whole bunch of parked
cars. Like the data is not moving quickly from
your eyes and ears. It's moving around all these
lumpy chunks. And we see it a lot in people that
like ride in Humvees, like those military guys,
you know, that those crystals are a problem.
Concussions, horseback riding. Okay, more concussions.
They're concussed. Rodeo, so many accidents in
rodeo. Joggers, aging. Just as we get older,
those crystals, they'll move. And you're just
not processing like you used to. But this vestibular
system is connected to 30 major functions. But
the four we focus on in our company is balance,
cognitive, spatial, and sleep. And I just obsess
about those four topics. Can I improve your balance?
Can I speed up your brain? Can I get those crystals
back in place so that the data is moving better?
Can I help you with spatial? especially the concussion
people. I really have good success in spatial.
And then sleep. Boy, if we can improve everyone's
sleep, your life just got better. So I really
have become obsessed with how those four factors
really factor into people's lives. Everything
that I'm presented with, I always look back as
a kind of evolutionary lens. Does this make sense?
So a good example, the carnivore diet. Does not
make sense to me because ancient humans did not
have access. Up until very recently, we did not
have access to enough meat to eat all day long.
So does it work? It seems to with some people.
Does it make sense to me? No, absolutely not.
But what you are doing in the carnival diet is
removing all the processed shit. So that's probably
the ultimate secret sauce in that diet as well.
What are the evolutionary things or the lack
thereof in modern society that is contributing
to the gumming up of this fluid and the concentration
of the crystals? So there's a lot of things.
And I would just even say aging process alone.
You know, like we start to see problems in the
vestibular system, even in 19 and 20 year olds.
OK. And my favorite example is the spinning teacups
at Disney World. OK. Your kids are like, yes.
And you're like, no, I'm going to die. You know,
like you don't see people over 30 on those spinning
teacups. If they do, they look like they might
die. You know, like their grandma and grandpa
don't look happy on the spinning teacups. I've
had people come to me to train for it. So they
could do the spinning teacups at Disney World
in front of their kids, which cracks me up. It's
a training program for Disney, you know, but
we. But it makes sense. You know, like if you're
not processing, you know, the space around you,
you're you're struggling, you're slow. And that's
been some of our really cool projects of more
pre and post testing that we've been able to
track these pieces of balance and tracking cognitive.
And you got to do that, too, which was fun when
we were in Tampa together. How can we pre and
post test and see these changes? The Apple watches,
the aura rings, the, you know, all these things
that I also think in the olden days, we would
have called woo woo science. We can, we can prove
so much of that now. There's so much good pre
and post, you know, you can really see it's not
woo woo, which is important. And I think, and
I look at some of those old. The old, like, Chinese
remedies and some of the old, you know, ancient
secrets, you know, that I think have been lost.
I just read a paper talking about how Rockefeller
was really involved in early health care in convincing
people that you could only get help from a real
doctor. Only a real doctor could help you. Not
what your grandma did and not castor oil and
not, you know. There's an old joke about Windex.
It's a weird analogy. This whole concept that
only one group of people could help you. But
Rockefeller had early health care systems, so
of course he made money off of that. So when
you follow back the money, which I just hate,
that decisions are made based on that, versus
overall health, there's been a big transition
in how... the health of our communities. And
I'm going to go back to the obvious one, looking
at phones all day, looking at cameras all day
and screens all day. What is that doing to our
health? I'm not sure I need a paper on that.
I know that's not healthy. Like I don't need
a paper. I can just figure that out on my own.
I can look at generations of kids versus my grandparents
in quality of life. And I can see that. I don't
need a paper. The common denominator in a lot
of these conversations seems to result with the
idea if we just did what our grandparents did,
you know, what we did 100 years ago, you'd probably
have a pretty good lifestyle. And my wife came
to St. Pete, you know, and you met her as well.
And she's a doctor of optometry. And, you know,
we have these conversations where she's seeing
all these issues with the eye in a lot of these
young people now because their focus is just
fixed on the screen. Or if they are learning,
again, it's on a computer these days. And they're
not getting that long distance and that change
of focus, which is not, you know, challenging
the eye. They're not processing the same way.
You know, the actual muscles themselves aren't
being used as much. So, you know, it all makes
perfect sense. You know, our life is so abnormal
at the moment. And we talked a while ago, ancient
man and woman, we would have been running around
and rolling and doing a lot more childlike movement,
I would imagine, than being stuck on a chair
for eight, nine hours at a time. Right. I talk
about men standing. As a young man, as a seven
-year -old boy, you would have stood shoulder
to shoulder with your dad and the other men of
the village figuring out how to take down the
mastodon. You know, like you wouldn't have been
sitting in front of a screen all day with no
FIAD, no activities, just having someone talk
to you all day long. That isn't how we grew up
as humans, you know. And even just the education,
how much has changed from your and my education
to what they're doing in the schools these days.
It's very, very different. And just even class
management, like I don't think, I think these
new teachers have it hard. Really, really, really
hard, even compared to the class management of
our generation. Absolutely. Well, I think a good
example of comparing maybe a group that hasn't
had any exposure to this with an athlete that
has, you showed me a video of pilots. doing the
centrifuge. So talk to me about that. One, if
I'm not mistaken, was one of your athletes, ice
skaters. The first boy is spinning and they call
it a Barney chair. So imagine it as a sitting
chair with a little rail around it. And they're
kind of perched on it with their upper body.
And then they turn their heads, you know, so
they have their heads in different positions,
but it's like a spinning, rotating chair. So
of course the chair stops and the first boy sits
up and looks like he's going to vomit. He literally
looks like he has epilepsy. Like the kid is like
cannot function with his head or shoulders or
his back. And you can tell he's so severely dizzy.
He's non -functioning. And we always joke about
that video being like, that's the kid. I don't
want to fly with. Okay. Like it's an, it's, it's
an army air force video. You know, like, like,
like this boy is going to kill us all. Like we
don't want to fly with that kid. Whereas then
of course my athlete who's in the video, she's
probably about 25, you know, but like she grew
up in spinning, figure skating, super, super,
super spinning. And so when they stopped the
chair, so she's spinning. And if you've seen
my fast videos, the spin is in this chair, this
party chair is slow compared to a, My athletes
used to. So it's nothing to her. So, of course,
they stop. She lifts her hands perfectly, totally
balanced, 100 % alert. Focused, done, ready,
let's go. And if you've seen the movie Top Gun,
you'd want to fly with my pilot, not the other
pilot. Especially as the plane's flipping and
turning and twisting. But life flips and turns
and twists. We all talk about, like, real movement
in real life that so many people can't do, much
less even I'm fascinated. People just walking,
just walking and turning their head and walking
and turning their head. And people get dizzy
from that. And I'm like, oh, oh, goodness. You
know, like that's that's terrifying. But it's
all back to that vestibular system. But it goes
back to training it and how that affects you
in real life. When you put me through your your
what would you call the actual device? So we
have we have two systems. One is a fly system
and one is a rail system. And basically spinning,
you know, this like a spinning lazy Susan that
I can control the speed and the direction so
I can control. And really, we start so slow.
Like when you watched your videos, you and your
wife's videos, we're spinning quite slow. And
we've really done a lot of work on. spinning
fast and the chaos of that yet the spinning slow
and longer and the durability of that you know
in both programs were great so when i was on
i was on the rail system um and they did it a
little bit faster the second time when i went
back um but you have me count to 30 and and the
whole concept is being able to be calm amidst
chaos so expand on that because obviously the
people listening now that's that's the you know,
an imperative part of our profession to be able
to have all these things going on and sirens
and lights and fires and heat and everything,
people screaming and still be able to focus on
painting the room with our hand and looking for
the child that might be hiding under the bed.
Right. So this actually came to us from the fire
department and they called it Time Warp. And
time warp, what they described it as, is you're
in a fire, you think you've been in there for
four minutes, and really you've been in there
an hour. And now the team could die, you know,
because they've lost track of time in the chaos.
And we had reverse stories of that, too. Some
of my elite shooters from the military talked
about, as snipers, being there with the gun and
on their gut. They've been there for two hours,
three hours, check their watch. It's been five
minutes, you know, so like time moving too quick
and time moving too slow. So the argument was,
could we train that? Could we train chaos and
control of time in chaos? And we all have the
story of a car accident that happened in slow
motion, you know, or the meeting that never ended.
You know, like I. I've had lessons. I'm like,
OK, the clock is moving backwards. You know,
it's not. It's only been five minutes. Well,
you know, this kid's killing me. So can we train
that? And the weird part is we have been trying
to really train that. And we've had pretty, really
good success with it in finding 30 seconds in
especially that third set of spins where your
body is starting to feel the chaos, even some
fight or flight. I have a lot of people that
break out in a sweat from spinning, okay, because
they're fighting, fight or flight, you know.
Their brain's like, that short lady's trying
to kill you, you know. But as we train that and
find more zen and calm and to be able to turn
that off and to understand what's going on around
you, can we train that? And we're getting more
and more successful with it. But it takes time
and it takes training. And that's part of where
we love that fly system. I didn't have one there
for you. But that fly system is really chaos
training. So who really loves my fly system?
And imagine, once again, the electric spinner,
it gets you spinning. And then I hoist you into
the air in a body harness and a spreader bar.
So you spin like crazy. Some faster than others.
You got to train it. The kids are better at it
than the adults. Let's just be honest. OK, but
I have a couple of eight year old girls that
can beat every Navy SEAL on the planet because
they're just so good at it. But it takes time
and training. But can we find control in chaos?
And I'm even fascinated. Nobody can do it at
first, but within three, four weeks, we can get
you pretty close to 30 seconds. I was surprised
that even my friend who's a CPR specialist, like
she's a CPR teacher. She knows that rhythm, you
know, and she counted it in her CPR brain and
she was still four seconds off. And I'm like,
wow, like of anyone that I thought could nail
this was her. Although I do have to add in one
caveat, I have had one person nail this at 30
seconds and they had autism. But that brain,
boom, right on 30 seconds, right on the nose.
I was like, how'd you do that? You know, because
normal people can't, you know, find 30 seconds,
much less in chaos. It's hard. Well, I think
I hit it right at 30 .9 or 31. So that means
I'm probably borderline. You're pretty close.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in that group. But there's
very few people that can really do that. It's
a really hard skill, you know, that to find 30
seconds is hard enough, but to find it in chaos.
It'll save your life. It could save a lot of
people's lives. And I think it's a piece of control
that is key in success. But I think it's also
a key of controlling time, even in trauma. I
feel like you can cut down some of the trauma
because you had more control in the situation.
When I did the martial arts for most of my life,
if you're doing a spinning kick, you're whipping
your head around, locking on the target and then
kicking. In dance class, you know, people that
do a pirouette, you see they spot, spot, spot.
So that head turns around and captures that place
again. That's not the case with skating though,
is it? So explain to me. No, it spins right past
you. You gotta keep it. You know, yeah, like
it's a challenge. So how are our skaters able
to, I mean, we obviously were talking about vestibular
system in itself, but. if these dancers are spotting,
so they don't lose balance, what are our skaters
doing that are, you know, cause they don't have
that tool. They're just moving so fast. How were
they able to overcome that? Or is it simply exactly
what we're talking about? This just training
the vestibular system. Training. It was just
a train because we're taught to let it just go
past you, you know, and I have some really fun
videos of the kids holding my phone while they're
flying in rotation and just watching it whip
past you. It's just, you know, it's, It's fascinating.
Although one of the rooms that we shot the video
in was kind of like a darker ballet room. So
it had a set of windows and like a darker corner
that the light just didn't quite hit. So it got
a light and a dark and it felt very strobe -y.
To the point I'm like, well, I don't know if
this is a good idea. We're not trying to strobe
the kid, you know what I mean? Like we're not
trying to do that. When I got a different training
room with better lighting, it seems a little
nicer for the kids. They seem to adapt to it
better. But we just teach it as it just rolls
through. And so maybe it really is a better sense
of proprioception of feeling your body in space
when your eyes aren't giving you enough data.
So those figure skaters adapt, and they adapt
young, you know, which is fun to see. Well, let's
start with performance and we're going to go
back to some of the other areas that we touched
on before. In any area at all, what have you
seen as far as the impact on performance after
using this training? So we see a ton of improvement.
So my favorite thing to test is I use a company
called Balance Tracking Systems. So, and you
got to do it too, where you stand on a solid
plate and it tracks. your balance and how much
you sway and that sway movement of how much you
wiggle in your feet, in your head, you know,
like how much you're really moving. And it tracks
centimeters of movement, but it also tracks how
you moved in the ellipse of the circle. Is it,
are you like really left, right, north, south,
you know, east, west, or are you in a really
tight linear space? Or do you really lean to
the left? Cause you got a bad hip. And that right
hip or knee or ACL still acts up. So when you
get nervous, you're going to bounce to that left
hip because you trust it more. So, like, this
balance tracking system is phenomenal. They're
based out of California. Love them. I don't own
the company. Go them. But we track what they
call a modified CAT -SIB, which is basically
tracking your sensory integrated into your balance.
And what it really is is 20 seconds eyes open,
20 seconds eyes closed. Then we add a... blue
foam, like a foamy foam that really gets gushy
underneath you. And then we do another 20 second
size open and 20 second size closed. So in the
performance world, first of all, I just track
your balance. And what do we see? We see a lot.
Okay. We see injury. We see old injuries that
we thought healed, but your brain doesn't think
is healed. Because once again, you got nervous
and you made that shift. We see a lot, and we
see people struggle on that foam, especially
the aging population. You put foam under their
feet, and I talk about that's how we killed off
Harriet. It's really, really, really hard for
them. And I have to spot them, and I have a whole
batch of clients that can't even stand on foam.
There's no way that uneven surface, they can't
even stand, much less close their eyes. So that's
a really, really obvious. level of vestibular,
either going great for the kids or going downhill
for the adults. So we love testing that, then
spinning, and then post -testing it and seeing
what I did literally to your brain, because that
inner ear controls your balance. So many people
think balance comes from our feet, but it's really
coming from our inner ears. So that's where...
Right off the bat performance, I have a huge
impact on performance with really shocking data
changes after just one session with me, like
shocking data, especially in the concussion community.
So I made the jump already performance already
to concussion. Let's do it. But we look at it
as the same thing, like performance and rehabilitation
in our company is the same thing. It's not two
separate entities. I deal with performance. I
deal with concussion. I deal with aging. I deal
with Parkinson's. I deal with autism. I deal
with injury. Like I deal with everyone with a
brain. And we see data changes on all of them
in just one session. In the mental health space,
this is becoming more and more of a prevalent
conversation. If we reframe mental health to
forging performance. you would basically do most
of the same exact things that are good for your
mental health as well. Now, I'm not talking about
someone in crisis that takes a little more intervention,
but most of us that are kind of, you know, not
circling the drain, but the water's getting a
little shallow now. You start doing breath work.
You start doing meditation. You take walks without
your phone. You journal. These are going to help
calm your mind. Now, when you're in a fire or
a gunfight, you are going to be more likely to
get into a flow state, more likely to be in that
calm and chaos. If you don't do any of that work
and you have that busy mind, yes, you could head
towards depression and anxiety. But also, when
you're asked to go and... do that CPR algorithm,
cardiac drug calculations at three in the morning
on a four -year -old, same exact thing. That
busy mind isn't going to let you be the top level
that you need to as a paramedic. So what I love
about this is rather than framing it with more
of a kind of victim mentality, which we have
in the past, everything from TBI to mental health,
now we're looking at, let's look at performance,
which is going to get a lot more buy -in. the
beautiful thing is behind the curtains, you're
also positively affecting your mental health
or your concussion. That is such a good, thank
you. That was beautiful. Like absolutely framed
perfectly, you know, cause, cause really it's
the same thing, you know, and, and I do a, and
ready, I do with everyone the same, you know,
if you have autism, I spin you just like I spin
Harriet at 78 years old. You know what I mean?
Like, like I'm spinning everybody the same. And
we talked about like it's so nice and individualized,
you know, like I can start slow. And I was talking
about my job is just to get your brain up to
activity and kind of get it kicking, but not
to go beyond. Like I'm not trying to make you
barf because everyone assumes when they see me
teach spinning stuff that everyone's going to
vomit. And that's never the case. Nobody pukes
with me. Nobody. Mostly because that's gross
and I don't want to do that. I'm not going to
clean that up, but it's on me. Because just like
a trainer in a gym, if I work you out until you
vomit, I'm a bad trainer. OK, like and I'm not
talking about Navy SEALs and they got a whole
insane training program like that's that's not
normal in a lot of ways. But in the same breath
to like, can I train you? Can I get your brain
activated? And that's all I need. You know, so
I have people that are done with me in three,
four or five minutes. And it's. Fascinating to
kind of see that threshold on every single person.
And it starts slow, and it just can keep getting
faster and faster. But once again, at some point,
too, the goal isn't so much faster. The goal
is longer and slower to really get that gel to
move through that vestibular system, to get that
flow state. I have a couple of trainers that
are brilliant at getting people to flow. And
when you were down at the Bio -Optimization Institute
in Tampa, Florida, out of St. Pete's, they're
so good at oxygen and, you know, red light and,
you know, the PEMF mats and, you know, and all
of those are fantastic. You know, because, of
course, I think my product's great, but I think
when you tie it in with two or three other great
modalities, wow, we can really see success. for
that person in their own individual ways. Almost
kind of like Tetris, like what's their problem?
One of those companies is going to really kind
of fill in the holes of the Tetris to get it
all nice and even. Absolutely. What are some
of the success stories that you've seen with
TBI, concussion, that kind of background? Oh
my gosh, we just had a white paper come out.
I'm going to tear up over the white paper. We
had 52 people, all different ages, adults, kids.
We eventually shifted out the kids, and we showed
a 22 % improvement in balance and vestibular
and cognitive and spatial and all of these things.
We have even more papers coming out on this with
the data. The first one was the 22 % improvement
in balance. Now we're working on the one with
axon brain. for tracking cognitive. And we're
just seeing beautiful data changes of like really
just speeding up that brain. I recently had a
top trainer with the NFL in and who sped up his
brain by six seconds. And I'm like, yeah, but
what would six seconds do to an NFL player? If
I could speed your brain up by six seconds, what
would that change? But one of my little girls,
I had a little second grader in. Two days ago,
who sped her brain up by 55 seconds. Okay, well,
same thing. Can I speed up second graders by
a huge margin? And what will that do for her
in school and in sports and in academics and,
you know, in her life? Like, you could just watch
her brain just kick in and go for it. That's
exciting. You know, and that it's all vestibular.
Like I want to think I'm the one that came up
with it, but I'm not. There's already like fifty
five thousand papers already published on vestibular.
So they're there. So hit PubMed .gov. And my
favorite part is you can like in the search engine
to do like vestibular plus. you know, stress,
vestibular plus mental health, you know, vestibular
plus balance, vestibular plus autism, vestibular
plus aging, you know, like you can really get
that search engine to hone in on how vestibular
is really the academic results of in fixing it
and really getting it moving correctly. The outcomes
are amazing. Well, speaking of academics, you
mentioned about talking to these other coaches
originally and them having issues from relationships
to grades to, you know, ability to focus, et
cetera, et cetera. Were you able to take any
of their athletes and put them through the program?
So my game has been I'm working with everyone
with a brain. So I've been working with everyone.
And it's been really, really fun, especially
in some things that I didn't understand the outcomes
could be. We're doing a big project. Actually,
it's in the early phases, but at the University
of Minnesota out of their neuro urology department.
OK, I got to think that through a second. Neuro
urology, because crazy statistics, 10 percent
of 10 year old kids don't stay dry at night.
OK, that's. millions of kids that aren't staying
dry. So they're not having their buddies over.
They're not, you know, going out. They're not
spending the night at grandma's, you know, like
it's really hard on the family. And these kids
are suffering like really that that's a huge
problem. And these kids are really, really suffering.
And it's going into 12, 13, 14 year old kids,
much less the aging population with the same
problem, but on a different. And we're doing
a big research project with U of M because they
really think we're the missing link in getting
that nervous system to quiet down, get your vestibular
not to be screaming that you're dying. We really
think we've already helped a whole batch of kids,
but it'll be fun to see how many more we can
help. Well, I told you when we met a few weeks
ago, I was that kid. I was into my very early
teens. and still wet in the bed. And I'd almost
died in a house fire, and I had night terrors.
And so it's pretty evident now, with the knowledge
that I have today, why that was a thing. Ironically,
there was like a wire mesh, because my brother
did as well. And you put this wire mesh under
the sheets, and the moment it got wet, it would
make a noise. And the thought of having to have
that as well, one day I stopped. So it kind of
makes me think, OK, well, even though, yes, there
were some pretty obvious reasons trauma wise
why, you know, that behavior was happening. I
wonder if something like the vestibular training
would have been that missing piece just to push
me over the edge. And ever since then, that was
it. Dried forever until I get to my 80s and start
peeing myself again. It's all going to happen.
Prepare yourselves, people. You know, like, it's
just all these, like, I talk about, like, real
life. You know what I mean? Like, real life things
that just these little things can help. And to
give a kid confidence again, that just tears
me up. Like, I'm always a sucker for kid projects.
But, like, to see this really change one kid's
future in a level of confidence, it's really
exciting. And it's so fun to see the kids kind
of come from. I talk about like kind of cornball
kids that show up in my training room and kids
that leave that are like these little baby Einsteins.
And you can just see that reset and that calm
and that Zen and the flow. And you can just see
the kids just like have a new sense of confidence
that they just didn't have. Let's send those
kids out into the world. There's your future
leaders, but that's just your future and your
kids and your family. And I just keep going back
to real life and things that matter. We can help
with that. We want to be a part of that story.
My father -in -law and I think even my mother
-in -law now both have had kind of sudden onset
vertigo. And you mentioned about the degradation
of the inner ear as we age. What are you seeing
as far as people with vertigo specifically and
some of the benefits from this? So what vertigo
really is, Sean, to my understanding clinically,
is that of the three semicircular canals, they
get a pooling of gel on one side and the other
sides go dry. And that's where the whole world
flips upside down. And boy, is that terrifying.
If you've ever had a bout of vertigo, it could
be. seconds or minutes or months or years. Oh
my gosh. Like it's terrifying and truly debilitating
to not be able to walk. You got to crawl to the
bathroom. Like it's, if you ever had a big dizzy
spell, you can really, really relate to these
people's pain. So actually of all the groups
that work with me, they're the group that's the
most afraid because what they've really done
is in an effort to cut down in their mind on
the vertigo is they're not moving their heads.
Okay. They're really, really holding their heads
still because Because, you know, like turning
their head and moving their head, they don't
want to have another bout of vertigo. And so
they really hold that head still, which makes
it worse. The old ball. I'm a fall risk. I'll
just stay in bed all weekend. You know, like,
oh, there's some problems that really come down
from it. And, of course, the spinning looks terrifying
to them. Although I always talk about on our
gear. So many of our videos, of course, are the
crazy, fast, fun, shocking videos. But I have
videos of literally people doing one turn. Okay.
One turn. And my face looks so unimpressed in
the video. I always look like, oh, so unimpressed.
But that one turn is where we start, you know.
And so for people with vertigo and that aging
community, we're actually working on a huge project
with a bunch of senior housing groups. I'm coming
for you. Brace yourself. It's coming to the senior
housing, active living places, because really
that one turn can just start to get that gel
to flow. And then, you know what, later in the
week we're going to do two turns or only one
and a half. You know, like we can just slowly
build that up. I was talking about my mom. She's
79 and she's so good on this gear. My mom is
cooking on this thing. You know, like my mom
is super good at it. And so is one of my aunties
who had a ton of balance problems. Like she couldn't
put on her shoes because once you put her head
down, she'd just fall off the chair. Time to
put her shoes on. And now she's putting her shoes
on. She's moving all over. She joined a walking
program. She's doing water aerobics. So it's
like if I can get more confidence, then I can
build that out into just way more active everyone
versus I'm a fall risk. I'm in a lame bed all
weekend. Yeah, that's what I saw when CBD first
kind of came out. It wasn't the magic pill, but
what it did is it would bolster whatever. was
fragile to then allow you to progress and a great
story is one of the guys i worked with in the
last fire department his mother was hit with
i think it was hip pain like really really debilitating
hip pain she was bedridden and you know he'd
asked me about it because i took cbd um and i
and i told him you know all about it and it was
zero thc so there was no kind of psychotropic
side whatsoever and you know i sent him where
i got it from and and that was it and then Two
or three months later, he messaged me out of
the blue and said, hey, not only is my mom out
of the bed, but now she's going to physical therapy
and the gym. And that's obviously what's ultimately
going to fix whatever the issue was. But it got
her back on her feet. And it's the same with
what you're talking about. You get someone who's
elderly and now they're not afraid of simply
moving around. Now they're walking. Now they're
doing some resistance exercises. You know, they're
getting out in the daylight and their bones are
going to be stronger. Their muscles are going
to be stronger. And then, therefore, their full
risk goes even lower then. And it's so fun to
watch just the confidence. Like my mom's almost
80 driving everywhere, busy. She's busy. She's
busy. My mom is really busy. And I, I love that.
You know, it's, it's really fun to watch my mom's
confidence and, and actually, okay. Yeah, my
mom loves me. Yeah, whatever. But she doesn't
she's not going to buy into something she's not
going to buy into. Like my mom is a very she
does what she does, how she does it. She's not
going to be talked into something. The group
is kind of we're all difficult. OK, so that just
sums it up. But she wanted to go do one of those
Viking riverboat cruises over in Europe. And
I'm like, mom, you fall all the time. And this
was like, oh, a good seven years, six years ago,
six years ago. And she wanted to go do these,
go do this. I'm like, mom, like on the boat,
off the boat, up the bus, down the bus. Those
stairs on buses are brutal. The cobblestones,
the churches, Europe is on level, mom. So I convinced
her to train with me for six weeks before she
left. She did it, loved it. Okay, like. I'll
be honest, she'd fight me if she didn't love
it. And she loved it. So she loved it. She went
to Europe, had a great time, international flights,
no falls, had a wonderful time. And a couple
of her little old lady friends fell on the trip
and kind of ruined their trips. And so she talked
about she really had the buy -in. And then, of
course, talked my auntie into it and my other
auntie into it. And, you know, like she, my family
wouldn't keep doing this. If they didn't believe
in it, you know, and even like my concussion
people, I've one of my favorite concussion clients.
He's been with me going on almost two years and
he's there every single Wednesday, never skips,
never misses. I'm the one who's traveling was
missing days, but he's, he is always there. And
he wouldn't be there if it didn't help. Speaking
of that, talk to me about some of the high level
sports, special teams, et cetera, that you do
work with. Okay, I get to work. The group keeps
expanding. I got to work with the world champion
jiu -jitsu kid over at Westside Barbell. How
fun was that? I got to work with a whole batch
of Navy SEALs that talk about some of the greatest
athletes on the planet in a weird resiliency
group with weird training that the rest of the
world would never have had. They're fascinating
to watch their brains. A little scary, too. I'm
just going to take a second on that. There's
some scary human beings out there. I work with
them. I got to work with the Minnesota United
goalie, Major League Soccer, who just got named
Goalie of the Year, Dane St. Clair. But I worked
with him prior to him being the goalie of the
year. But really fun projects. I work with so
many athletes. I do work with a lot of hockey,
just because the group's pretty concussed. I'm
getting more and more, of course, football players.
I got the honor of working with Art Still, who
is like Kansas City Chiefs. He's in their Hall
of Fame. amazing. The man is like six foot eight.
So I always joke about my 4 '10 next to his six
foot eight, you know, is really in our feet next
to each other are hilarious. But I got to work
with him and even his family, you know, so I'm
amazed at how many people come in for them, yet
they bring their family as additional, as additional
people to come work with me. And I'm also fascinated
how many professional athletes' wives bring them
to me. So the A -plus wife married the A -plus
professional athlete, and as he's struggling
with all of these concussions and health and
issues, decades after the sport, she's still
an A -plus. And so she's really trying to save
her husband. I work with so many wives that come
and bring their husbands to me, which is an honor.
You know, I'm also fascinated in the weird internal
no marketing system we kind of have other than
LinkedIn is that people bring more people like,
well, you helped me so much. Would you help my
brother or my niece? Could you help my niece?
You know, oh, wait a minute. I have a sister,
you know, one of my best friends as a co -worker.
Could could you help them, too? So I I constantly
have more and more calls, which. is so fun within
the company that we really don't market. We just
LinkedIn video and people find us. It's shocking.
It's fun to see. When you Google what is the
most effective marketing, because I've been through
a lot of BS with people that supposedly say that
they can analyze podcasts and find data and all
that stuff, and it's rubbish. The most effective
marketing is word of mouth, is hearing from a
product from someone that you trust. And this
is what I do when I have my sponsors. I just
tell the story and then it layers and people
go, okay, well, if it's on the show and James
stands behind it, then I would hope that people
think it's good. And therefore, you get this
domino effect. But I agree 100%. You mentioned
about... Firstly, the wives. My wife came with
me and she certainly has seen some things from
my career that she's trying to help with. But
also you mentioned the goalie and her coming
from the optometry world. She was fascinated
with that particular individual having blind
spots and therefore obviously being a detriment
to his certain sport. So talk to me about what
the challenges were and then what the outcomes
were after the therapy. So he came to me via
his OT. So his physical therapist and his OT
had... brought him into me. And so there's a
blind spot, bottom right, they had kind of discovered.
So what we did is we spun and then we were chucking
rubber ducks at him like a lunatic. I went through
like a hundred rubber ducks. I just kept chucking
ducks at him. I'm not very good at throwing.
So like he really had to block because it was
kind of super random. I'm not a good thrower.
I mean, that's a weird non -skill I have. But
he, so he blocked bottom right, spin, spin, spin,
block, block, block, block, block, block, block.
bottom right, bottom right, up, upper left, upper
left, upper right, upper right, down, bottom
right, bottom right, bottom right. And we just
kept spin and throw and spin and throw and spin
and move his head and spin and move his head,
spin and move his head, block, block, block.
It was just a super active movement. Like it
sounds weird. He wasn't just standing there in
the harness on the spinner. He was flying. He
was moving. He was moving that head. He was spinning.
He was blocking. It was, and I have to tell you,
it was the longest spin session I've ever given.
Okay. I really joke. People are in and out in
four or five minutes, you know, done. He, oh
my gosh, he was spinning for like an hour. Like
we just kept spinning this kid different directions
and head and move and arms and elbows and over
his head and behind him. And, you know, and boy,
what a goalie, you know, like this kid. And I
do have to say the photos of us together. Cause
once again, God, Dane's got to be like six, four.
And the kid has this huge wingspan on him. And
just standing next to me, I just look like I'm
four foot ten and like, oh, I look so ridiculous
standing next to him. So I joke I never make
the photos because it's him. And then I just
get cut out of the photo. I'm just too short.
So but but yeah, but it was fascinating to see.
But OK, but what do we already know? OK, your
eyes. connect to your body you know your eyes
and your ears are moving your body you're you
know we know that um if i need if the football
play is breaking left my left knee just didn't
break left my brain and my eyes my ears told
my left knee we're breaking left and we're going
left now um and you can always in place see that
the person that isn't quite with it you know
they're they're like breaking right because they
didn't see the whole thing move left and And
NFL analyzes those videos ad nauseum of who's
moving, where they're moving, how they're moving,
how they're getting there. How do you cut it
off? How do you bring it forward? Like they have
done so much analysis to the point they probably
know more than all of us combined. You know,
like in how do you move a team in unison? You
know, fascinating. What about on the mental health
side? Obviously, we talked before about if we
go for performance, it's going to help a lot
of the other side too. But with people that have
come to you with anxiety, depression, PTSD, whatever
the things were, what are some of the success
stories there? The first one is always sleep.
To be honest, that's where I always think I kick
people immediately. My concussion people, I'll
talk about, they went home from the session.
Feeling a little overwhelmed. And the first thing
they did was they took their first real nap in
months or years. And my PTSD guys, they all talk
about sleep. Okay, like that's their number one
hiccup they can't seem to correct. And the U
.S. military and some of my SEALs have told crazy
stories about drugging the guys to sleep and
drugging them awake. And, you know, wow. Like
talk about. the huge drop in their testosterone
to the point how I learned about it was one of
my seals was talking about, yeah, I got a six
year old and a 17 year old. And I, of course,
I got to give him a hard time about that. And
he's like, no, we were trying the whole time,
but I was on the sleep program that was so messed
up. And my testosterone was so screwed up that,
you know, it was 11 years between kids because
the testosterone was so messed up. So sleep.
Number one thing, if I can give anyone any real
sense of calm, it's sleep. And in my own story,
like when my kids were little and they weren't
sleeping, I cried a lot. I cried all the time
as a young mom. My kids started sleeping. I've
been fine ever since. Okay, but what's the first
thing when you start messing with sleep? That's
the number one. I think that's... where the tragedies
start is with the lack of sleep. Also, according
to the military, too, the guys would go two days
with no sleep and hit such a manic state that
the suicide was unstoppable, much less the violence
tied to it of killing the dog and the neighbors
or the kids or the family or, you know, like
the catastrophic situation they claim was unstoppable
because of the two days of no sleep. But then
the answer is, of course, well, wait a minute.
It is stoppable if we were to correct the sleep
over that two days. So sleep, number one issue
to the whole thing. Can I get you some better
sleep? Westside Barbell, in just a quick two
-week down and dirty, everyone just checked in
with their Oral Rings and Apple Watches, showed
a 72 % improvement in sleep. Okay. And if I can
get you to sleep, is your life better? Hell yeah.
But what about the other things? You know, we
talk about mental health, but we talk about sleep,
but the anxiety and the balance. So one of the
things we're seeing a lot of is especially teenage
girls with crazy levels of anxiety. OK, and I'm
not just talking about, oh, I'm nervous. OK,
I'm not saying that. I'm saying suicidal. Like
one of the one of my 12 year olds I work with
in Pennsylvania hugged me and she said that four
kids in her middle school had. four girls had
killed themselves that year of school. I mean,
so I'm talking, this is real. This is real life.
This is real families. And so when we talk about
anxiety, I'm not dismissive of it. I'm talking,
what's the root? And a lot of the root is your
brain knowing that you're not moving enough and
your balance is off. So your brain is screaming,
you know. Our balance is off. We're dying. We're
dying. We're dying. Fire, fire, fire, fire. You
know, there's something wrong. Something wrong.
There's something wrong. There's something wrong.
And really the base step is their vestibular
system and their balance is off. But then we
can all go back again to screen time and computer
time and not doing real things. A real experience.
Going outside. Looking at a tree. hitting a tree
in the face you know what i mean like you know
like real things happening to you um is is really
really key well sleep is everything and i talk
about this all the time because people listening
you know if they're in the best of work weeks
of working 24 hours straight with 72 hours off
if they are on the average they're doing 24 hours
on 48 off um which is you know and then a lot
of them are understaffed. So now you're looking
more like 48 on, 24 off. And you said the two
in a row. Yeah, if you're well -rested, you can
deal with that. But if you're starting to get
towards crisis, I always underline that there
are three areas that we know sleep deprivation
is used deliberately. Special forces selection,
torture, and interrogation. That's it. So you
have someone, like you said, everything from
the mental health crises to the testosterone
depletion to the cancers, it's all tied to seed
deprivation. It's not the only thing, but it's
a massive amplifier. So with this technology,
again, being able to help people downregulate
and therefore get a better quality of sleep,
it's going to be a huge interest of people listening.
your platform in there as well. Because as I
mean, as I saw, it literally is just a handful
of minutes and you're done. And it's something
that, you know, you're eating out. Yeah. I talk
all the time about, I also see ourselves in hospitals.
So once again, as you take that second shift,
as you take that third shift, okay. Oh my, that
you have to go into a neuro lab, re -kick your
brain between over. extended days so that you
give Mrs. Anderson two milligrams not 22 milligrams
because you're so tired it just yeah and Mrs.
Anderson's dead okay because you haven't slept
in two days you know like I look at all the real
life stuff but I also talk about like basic scheduling
like I have a whole thing on could the schedulers
do this schedule you know I mean like I always
joke that like a computer or someone down in
an office wrote the schedule and they don't even
live that schedule and so how are they writing
the schedule you go live the schedule for two
months you know and and it just seems so fixable
you know what I mean Like I just feel like that's
so fixable to be on a normal schedule. I actually
decades ago pitched the idea of 24 -hour schools
so that the kids could get on the same schedule
as the parents. So if you work the night shift
for UPS, your kids can go to school during the
night shift, you know, and then that way the
whole family is on the same schedule for even
sleeping, you know. If you need more of an afternoon
slot for school, then you can do morning sports
and then go to school in the afternoon. Like
we could run a school totally differently. But
then as a teacher, your husband's on the firefighting
night shift. Now you could work the night shift.
So once again, we're all together on the same
sleep schedule. I thought I was brilliant. I
don't know if it's good. I'm not sure if I can
work it, but I thought I was brilliant. Well,
I think what's exciting now with robotics, with
AI, all the things that used to require humans
that just don't anymore, get that to happen during
the night. Everyone goes to bed, almost everyone,
except the few people that we need to be there
for the most acute things, the first responders,
the hospitals, things that are imperative. Because
our generation, when we were young, We survived
without 24 -hour gas stations and all the shops
being open on Sundays. And, you know, up until
very, very recently, those weren't even a thing.
So, you know, there are definitely some professions
that need to be awake, but I would argue that
most don't. We've just created this false world.
But, I mean, how many people really go to a store
at four in the morning? Nobody. I don't. I'm
sleeping hard. The other thing, too, I interviewed
a bunch of kids. I just stood at the front door
of the rink, and I'm like, hey, how much sleep
did you get last night? How much sleep? How much
sleep did you get? And every kid coming through,
a lot of them, the answer was six hours. It was
pretty much the average. A couple were like,
eight hours, man. Always get my eight hours.
And one kid was like, I got about three hours
of sleep. And I looked at her like, what are
you doing? What do you have going on? You know,
four in the morning. What are you? You don't
have anything going on. Okay, now, no, this is
what you were doing. You were screwing around
on your phone and not, you're doom scrolling,
you're not sleeping. Okay, so now we have a whole
thing on choices made, but the health of what
those choices are creating too. But like we had
high school kids not getting even a solid seven
hours, the majority of them. Okay, so now, once
again, where's that leading us down what road?
Why can't a 16 -year -old get eight hours of
sleep? I just got to ask. Michael Phelps, swimmer,
woo, swimmer. His training program had a 10 -hour
a night sleep schedule and a nap every day. But
he could come in ready to work. He didn't come
dragging in like he had only six hours of sleep.
Well, especially if you look at the… different
younger ages you know when they're really young
obviously need a lot of sleep then it starts
going down but when you get to the teenage years
it actually goes up again and they're supposed
to have about 10 so you know you think about
a teenager that's getting six that's four hours
deficient every single night and then we wonder
why they're so damn grouchy when they're teens
one of the things maybe they're not sleeping
enough they're lunatics i know i raised two like
it was hard but we really try to do sleep here
at our family you know what i mean like you know
earlier to bed you know Take a bath beforehand.
You know, like all of these little pieces. You
know, the house is cooler, you know, at night
so that everyone sleeps better. And, you know,
little things, you know. No, don't let the dogs
sleep with you. You know what I mean? Like, because
the dog's going to wake you up. We have huge
dogs. So, like, they're going to wake you up,
you know. No, no dogs in kids' beds, you know.
So, like, there's all these little things that
really, they just seem really obvious to me on
a lot of levels. That once again, I don't need
a paper that teenagers need more sleep. Exactly.
I can see it. I can see it. Like I have a whole
thing on papers. Yeah, there's some great academic
papers out there. But there's also like. Common
sense. Yo, common sense. You know, like could
we see a little more common sense? That'd be
great. Yeah. My son didn't have a TV in his room
till. literally a few months ago and he's 18
now so managed to keep it out the whole time
and then he went to bed up until probably 16
he went to bed at nine o 'clock pretty much every
single night from baby all the way through because
that you know they get up at six that's a solid
nine ten hour you know sleep every single time
but it's not so early that they're kind of waking
up in the middle of the morning either but um
yeah it's a very simple thing if you lay the
groundwork at the beginning and make it the norm
and just continue that they never question it
Yep. No, we're big believers. I skated morning
ice as a kid. And for years, I coached morning
ice. And I was so happy when one of my athletes
quit. I was like, no more morning ice. I'm a
princess now. Like, I don't have to teach morning
ice. You know, it was great. My life improved
dramatically when that athlete left me. You know,
it was great. Best of luck to her. Well, let's
talk about the technology then. Tell people,
kind of describe what it is. And then, you know,
talk to me about where, you know, the kind of
organizations you think that should be purchasing
in it. And let's talk about the training that
goes along with it. So it's really easy gear
to run. I talk all the time about I have eight
-year -olds that run it for their parents. Okay,
like it's really easy gear. You literally set
the speed and the direction and you step on the
pedal. It's that simple. Easier than driving
a car. Ultimately, we're working with everyone
with a brain. And that has been the huge, super
fascinating part of our product. From the aging,
to the autism, to the Parkinson's, to the concussions,
to the elite athletes, to the world champions,
to the Olympians, to 14 -year -old kids that
don't stay dry at night. All of it, we're just
working with everyone. It's been an honor. I
tear up at this, too, of how many people we've
worked with. We have master trainers all over
the country, all over the world. Obviously, those
numbers are growing. I want to say I'm almost
done, but I'm not quite. Let's be honest. I've
got a couple more months to go. We'll have the
online certification program done. The system
right this second is people come and train with
me here in Minneapolis or I fly to them and train
their staff anywhere in the world. So it's been
really fun. I travel a lot. I have a lot of people
coming to visit, which makes for the fun of it.
I saw you down in Tampa. And the really fun part
of our company is we really feel like the goal
is we're American made, manufactured. Everything's
made here in the States. And we even have a batch
of vets that work for us, which is. Hilarious
staff meetings, by the way. So I have a batch
of vets, a bunch of general population specialists
that help me make the product. But then the goal
is to get the product in the hands of one specialist,
one specialist. And that one unit and that one
specialist can help a thousand people. What's
their specialty? Fire department. OK, I like
mental health, you know, EMDR specialists, schools,
teachers, special ed. Sports people, universities,
colleges, pro teams, like all of those. We really
have sales into every facet, which, of course,
is super exciting in the fact of how many people
could you help? The answer is billions. How many
people are on the planet? OK, all you need is
a plug in, you know, and away you go. Really
easy gear to really apply to each person. And
like I said, we just start slow, and everyone's
got their own threshold. And it's just trying
to find that little, just bring them up to that
nice, gentle activation, and we're done, we move
on. So if you did it at the beginning of a workout,
could you have a shorter workout because you
just moved better through the whole workout?
Could we cut down some of the training time,
especially on some of these pro athletes? And
some rehab that are exhausted. I talk about you
can only train from the neck down so much. Can
we kick from the neck up and get a lot done that
could save time in other places? So, yeah, it's
super easy gear. And are we doing more? Yes.
Do we have control? It's coming. The online class
will be done soon. It's on the list. I'll get
there. So where are the best places to learn
more and even sign up to be a trainer or purchase
equipment? So the first place to start is our
website, good old spinyourbrain .com. Just start
there. You know, like start at our website, spinyourbrain
.com. And there's tons of videos and different
kind of groups. And I'll be honest, it's an okay
website, but at least get you started. Enough
to come track down more of our trainers, message
us, we'll get you a trainer somewhere near you.
Obviously, as we sell more and more, we're also
doing a project with Lifetime Fitness. Okay.
I'm so excited. So we'll be coming to all of
the Lifetime Fitnesses, but it's a slow rollout.
It'll take a year and a half, two years, you
know, to really get into all the Lifetimes. But
we worked with Brom, their CEO, came to train
with me. Busy man, 44 ,000 employees. He's come
to train with me several times, and he loves
the gear. Built out a whole neuro lab at their
flagship location in St. Louis Park, Minnesota.
So that's... It's a wonderful neuro lab that
we're a centerpiece of. So good old Lifetime
Fitness. As we grow and grow, we'll be in more
and more places, more and more availability.
I still really want to do more in schools. Just
saying. It's a slow slog there, but we'll get
there too. But we really want to be in more schools
helping all the kids. I love that idea as well.
When you're thinking again about the mental health
side, trying to stay dry. you know, at night,
I mean, all these elements, it's such a, a non
-invasive safe way of training, whoever that,
you know, if this guidance counselor listens
to a kid for 50 minutes and at the end of the
session, just gives them a five minute spin.
I mean, you know, the potential was amazing.
So, and I, and I, my wife, you know, really kind
of felt dialed in after it. I've done two sessions
now, Becky didn't do the second one. Um, and
I'm going to be going down a few more times because
as you saw on some of my scans, there was some
concussion. leaning results initially so add
shift work to it i think i've got a little more
more work ahead of me so i'm excited to see what
that improvement looks like well and we love
it you know like we we just think it's fun it's
easy it's non -invasive you know um Really, the
goal is, I mean, I have a lot of athletes that
are in and out in three minutes, four minutes.
They're in, they're out. I have a treat basket.
The treat bucket is kind of fun. The kids fall
for that. I have marketed it a little bit. But,
you know, the kids feel a difference, you know.
They like it and they enjoy it and it's fun and
it's challenging. And it's fun when like six
or seven are standing in the room and we just
rotate through all the kids and they cheer each
other on and they coach each other. And there's
tricks to it, but there's a lot of midline crossing,
which, you know, just the basics of midline crossing,
what that does for the brain. So I got the feet
crossed, the hands crossed, they're spinning,
they're, you know, throwing things. It's just,
it's a really fun time. So what's not to enjoy
about it? You know, it really is. We have kids
that even when they leave the sports, still come
back and still do my classes and still book time.
And I think that really says a lot that even
when you leave, you still want to do it. Absolutely.
Well, I want to throw a few closing questions
at you before I let you go. The first one I'd
like to ask, is there a book or are there books
that you'd love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
The most completely unrelated one is the book
called The Talent Code. Okay, so The Talent Code
is phenomenal. I should know the author. I don't.
Anyway, it's great because he really talks about
how you build an athlete and people that really
know how to develop and how they can create phenomenal
athletes with different programs. And out of
that book, they talked about, like, Brazilian
soccer is one of the examples, okay, of that.
They really had the kids learn in a really small
room, almost like a tiny closet is where the
kids were given the ball. And so the kids learned
to control the ball in a small space rather than
chasing the ball for the whole practice out on
a big field. But the kids learned ball control
so much faster in this small space when you limited
their space. Out of that book, USTA and a couple
others learned that you could run tennis. Not
lengthwise, because the kids really couldn't
volley it back and forth. They ran it sideways,
made the space smaller so that the kids could
really, you know, they got a slower ball, which
was the advent of pickleball. Just saying, the
advent of pickleball came out of slowing the
ball and having a smaller space that you could
really participate in the sport and not spend
your whole time chasing it. But even basketball
and all these other sports have really looked
at that book of the talent code. of how do you
train an athlete and how do you develop them?
And where does real learning come into play versus
just flopping around, you know, which as coaches,
we've seen it, you know, we participated in it,
you know, like, but in the end, how does a kid
and an athlete learn? And that's just a great
book, The Talent Code, highly recommend it. Brilliant.
What about film, television or documentaries?
Okay, I recently saw the documentary. It's on
the Disney Channel about the people that saved
the children in the cave. Do you remember that?
In Thailand. Okay, for sure you'll cry. It is
a stunning story of not just survival, but kindness
and how those divers, how the right people were
in the right place at the right time. And it
worked. It should not have worked. It should
not have worked. And I just have chills telling
the story. It was one of my favorite documentaries
ever. Cried. Totally cried. Yeah. Brilliant.
I'll have to watch that then. All right. Well,
the next question. Is there a person that you'd
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest
to speak to the first responders, military, and
associated professions of the world? So, of course,
I go back to the Bio -Optimization Institute.
Tripp and Jason, I think, are phenomenal and
brilliant in their own stories of how they got
to where they are. Very crazy backgrounds with
talk about a success that is just joyful to see.
I also have Kedrick Blomquist out of Colorado
Springs. Used to work for like Semper Fit. He
designed whole workout programs for the Marine
Corps. But he's out of Colorado Springs now,
works with a lot of active guys, a lot of vets,
some retired SEAL captains, commanders. You know,
it's like really fascinating. But he in his own
story is amazing coming back from literally death
to become a trainer. You know, and what he's
done with my equipment. Even I'm impressed, you
know, which is kind of the fun part. It kind
of goes back to that one specialist. They take
my gear, but they give it a twist. Like, I'll
be honest. He's added some extra pieces to my
gear that I never thought of, and he's really
elevated what he's doing with training. with
my gear um colorado springs kadrick bloomquist
happy to make introductions that would be amazing
thank you and blake and trip are coming on next
month i think it is as well so i've already got
that schedule there we go they're so good i'm
already ahead of myself but yeah no like i've
met so many amazing people you know and it's
just been um it's been really fun to see them
them rise. And the big saying in our company
is everybody wins. We're really an everybody
wins kind of group. Could we help more? Can we
see that kid be successful? Can we see that soldier
be successful, especially coming back to society
and their wives and their children? And how do
they interact? And how can we all find success
and change the world, even if it's for just a
small for one person, but how that affects their
family. Absolutely. All right. Well, then the
last question before we make sure everyone knows
where to find you, what do you do to decompress?
I spin. That seems obvious. Okay. Like I spin
a lot. And even in my videos on LinkedIn, I'm
like, oh, I'm spinning with the camera. But my
favorite thing to do is I like to do hand quilting.
So at night, we stop talking about the company
by 7 .30 at night. There's no business talk after
7 .30. Because if I talk about it up into bedtime,
then I still think about it. I don't sleep well.
So end of all business discussions with the family
and my husband and other staff was done at 7
.30 at night. And I do love to hand quilt. And
it's just an up and down hand quilting. I got
really teeny weeny little small stitches. There's
very much a decompression to it. I'm starting
a new quilt now. I'm all excited. Finish one,
on to the next. And I just heard something from
one of my girlfriends that this whole Gen Z group,
the whole goal lately has been to put their phones
down and go do real things. The Gen Z group is
that they want to go do real things. They want
to play a real board game. They don't want to
play it on their phone. And they've picked up,
ready for this, granny projects. Okay, so like
knitting, crocheting, quilting, sewing. They're
calling it like granny crafting. And I'm like,
wait, I'm not a granny, but I'll teach you how
to hand quilt. You know, like I do love it. Like
I really love some of that really slow, basic,
zen. I can watch a Godzilla movie and just be
quilt, quilt, quilt, quilt, quilt. Oh, Godzilla.
Yeah, okay, there we go. Got it. Okay, quilt,
quilt, quilt. Oh, another Godzilla section. Yeah,
I don't know. Slower is better, especially before
bed. Absolutely. It's funny, the Gen Zs are actually
going to the trades a lot more too. I think they're
realizing that a lot of college programs just
aren't. worth it. You know, of course, if you're
going to be a doctor or a lawyer, there's certain
tracks that you have to go to college, but so
many people have this massive debt and a piece
of paper that doesn't guarantee them a job. So
it's exciting actually for the first responder
professions, because the demand is there. We
just have to fix what's broken in our profession
to pull these people back in. But that's what
I'm hearing about Gen Z is that there's a kind
of romanticization of our generation. And they're
circling around now, our clothes, our music,
and even the tangible things that we used to
have. So that's so good to hear. Well, I have
to tell you, in college, I dated a fireman. Let
me tell you, it was a good time. I loved him.
He didn't work out, but he was a great guy. And
paramedics and firefighters and cops, they're
a wonderful group of people that really need
the support. But if I can go back and help them
with their sleep, I... I just, and their balance.
Although, just to jump into one last story, I
worked with a set of cops here in the Twin Cities.
So how do we pre and post test? They went and
shot first at the range. So they shot first,
came and worked with me, bounce mat, spun, bounce
mat. They all improved. That was great. Went
back to the range, re -shot. And so far, and
this can't even be a real number. So far, 100
% of them significantly improved their shooting
scores according to the different independent
range masters in lots of different ranges. My
favorite one, he'd been trying to qualify for
SWAT for like two years. And he could do the
state standard no problem. But when they backed
him up 20 feet, he couldn't do it. And I've been
practicing and practicing and practicing. And
so the day he trained with me, he passed his
SWAT certification. And the range master, big
dude. In my face, absolutely in my face being
like, how'd you do it? How did you do it? Did
you drug him? And I'm like, no, I spun him. But
the range master talked about his balance was
so good that the target acquisition was faster
through his eyes. So he found the target faster,
but his draw was so much better because he didn't
overdraw or underdraw. His balance was so stable
that when he drew, he really had a perfect draw.
And so. He passed a SWAT that day. No, I did
not drug him. But the look, too, of the bright,
alert, shiny eyes, I mean, you can tell I kicked
something neurologically. When people come in
with shark eyes and they leave with shiny, happy
eyes, there's a difference. There's a big difference.
Absolutely. All right. Well, for people listening,
if they want to learn more about you, reach out
to you. Where are the best places to do that?
Well, so the website, spinyourbrain .com, yay,
whatever, it's a website. I do a lot on LinkedIn.
So if you just track my name, Sheila Thielen,
T -H -E -L -E -N. It's just T with a Helen is
how my last name is spelled. So T, Helen. Just
find me on LinkedIn. I really do a lot on LinkedIn.
We have some stuff up on Instagram, at Vestibular
Training Services and Facebook, but whatever.
We don't put a lot of effort into that. We don't
put a lot of effort into a lot of things. Yeah,
you social media people. But our favorite thing,
of course, is podcasts. And our favorite thing
is a real story with real people, not filters
and weird stuff. We have a ton of great videos
posted all over the place. So come enjoy our
videos. But the website's a little better. But
also on the website, too, is a whole bunch of
academic papers. that are published in our new
recent white paper with concussions. 22 % improvement
is all up on the website. And I encourage people
to go, learn, learn more about vestibular. And
the easiest one place is PubMed .gov. Go read
academic papers. Go learn more about vestibular
because it's really controlling your life in
a way that you need to educate yourself, just
like calories, carbohydrates, sleep, steps. are
all part of the education we've all had in health.
Okay, but vestibular is the big five coming on
that people really need to understand that they
don't. And I'm going to say even including your
doctor doesn't quite understand vestibular, especially
if they're a little older and it wasn't really
covered in their education, unless they've stayed
educated on it. There's a whole batch that the
audiologists are saying that people are going
to like 10 doctors before they're ending up.
really understanding vestibular and needing help
absolutely well i want to thank you so much it's
been firstly again to try the technology to see
the results and and we'll talk about the other
parts that we did the oxygen all that stuff in
the interview with the lads but um it really
is exciting and it just makes sense and that's
the thing for me if it makes sense then i'm all
in if it doesn't and it's snake oil you know
and yeah just eat meat all day the rest of your
life don't have any vegetables and fruit sorry
like it just doesn't make sense to me it will
it work for a short time you know you eliminating
the bad stuff that part totally makes sense but
with this you know with the the uh fixed kind
of uh element of modern society and losing that
ability to move, just putting that back in again.
And then, and then also, you know, the high performance
side, that chaos under, I mean, excuse me, that
calm under chaos that we need a lot of us listening
now, I can absolutely see, you know, how that's
applied as well. So I want to thank you so much,
not only for, you know, showing me your technology
in person, but for being so generous with your
time and coming on the behind the shield podcast
today. I'm honored. Thank you so much for having
me. Go spin. Have a great time. Go spin.