This episode is sponsored by a company who has
truly found a solution to an age -old problem,
and that is Karna Bunker Gear. One of the most
prevalent conversations in the fire service is
should we or should we not train in our bunker
gear? Now, the answer to both is yes. As most
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fires, of which there are over 260 that are dangerous
to human health, not to mention the PFAS and
other chemicals that are within our gear from
the manufacturing process, are factors that we
obviously want to minimize. Now, the other side
of the coin is that we do need to train in our
gear. There is no way to acclimatize the heat
retention and lack of mobility than to actually
wear the gear. So seeing this problem himself,
firefighter and exercise physiologist Ryan Conley
developed a carcinogen -free gear at a much lower
cost that can be used in non -IDLH atmosphere
and training that does not require puncture or
tear resistance. Now, as someone who always trained
in gear myself throughout my career, I wish this
technology was around then. and I got to test
it personally while coaching my tactical athlete
class a few weeks ago and can testify that it
not only simulates the heat retention of frontline
gear but also the lack of mobility, which is
imperative at operating at a high level on the
fire ground. Now some additional benefits include
being able to doff the gear when you do get banged
out for a call, increasing the lifespan of your
frontline bunker gear, And then also public education.
Think of the number of times that we allow, for
example, schoolchildren to wear our gear when
it's infused with all these carcinogens. So there
are so many real world applications for a fraction
of the cost of IDLH rated bunker gear. So if
you want to hear the whole story behind this,
listen to my conversation with Ryan Conley on
episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast.
or go to karnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name
is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome back onto the show veteran wildland
firefighter and the co -founder of WildFitLife805,
Justin Mahaffey. Now, if you didn't hear my first
conversation with Justin, you truly must. And
that was episode 876, as he has a very powerful
story. In the second conversation, we jump right
in into the current state of the Wildland Fire
Service, the challenges they're facing from residents
of their communities, navigating their grief
after losing a son to a drunk driver, the strength
and conditioning coaching they offer online.
their supplements, and so much more. Now, before
I get to this incredibly powerful conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So that being said, I welcome back onto the show...
Justin Mahaffey. Enjoy. Well, Justin, I want
to start by saying thank you so much for coming
back onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
It's an honor to be back, man. I was looking
forward to talking to you. Yeah, likewise. So
we spoke two years ago now, episode 876 of people
that are listening. I guess the first icebreaker
would be from the fireside. Talk to me about
either the evolution or even devolution of the
wildland side that you've observed the last couple
of years. Well, it's continued to decline. You
know, it's harder to get people to stay with
us. They still they did a little raise, which
is better, but it still won't keep people around.
It's still not enough. So. Same problems, not
able to staff, not able to fight fire aggressively
in some situations like we normally would. So
just continuing to decline. No, the leaders won't
make. the powerful right decisions that are necessary
and i don't think they you know at a local level
they don't have the power to do so it comes from
higher and higher and higher so it's just a continuous
problem i know we're right you know jumping into
this topic straight away but if you were king
for a day and you could literally you know fund
what needs to be funded and and put programs
in place to attract young people back into the
wildland fire service what would be the changes
that you'd make to turn this around Well, it
wouldn't be immediate. The pay is the ultimate
thing. If you can pay these kids enough to stick
around, then you can have people stick around,
which will create the leadership in years down
the road that would make the newer generation
also want to stay because of the powerful leadership
in place. So it's money. It's pay, changing that
right away because the job is not going to change.
It is what it is. We could have better tools.
we could have you know better resources but the
job in itself fighting wildland fire is the same
it's just about the pay and keeping people around
so you in the future you have better leadership
because that's the problem we're losing our high
quality leaders are going to other agencies that
are all risk and then they're getting out of
the wildland for the most part and doing all
the other stuff so i think the answer would be
money you know i would pay an appropriate wage
to keep people invested in it as a career We've
got people leaving to Costco that have been doing
this for 20 years. See, this is what's so crazy.
If you look at most of the issues that we have,
not just in our profession, but in other areas
too, it's always the false economy. This term
comes up over and over and over again. You make
cuts, you take shortcuts, and it ends up costing
far much more down the road, whether it's losing
firefighters themselves, whether it's communities
that lost homes because they weren't able to
defend that particular area. And so proactively
investing in, for example, the wildland fire
service, so you have enough people, you have
enough resources, they're working in an environment
that doesn't kill them, that would save money
hand over fist. And it drives me crazy that that
is such a foreign concept to people that are
supposed to be the gurus in the financial world.
Yeah, it's mind -blowing annually. It just gets
worse and worse. And then they'll spend millions
on drops from aircraft that they could have placed
paying people to, you know, there's just so many
different things that, you know, it's ridiculous.
When you talk to some of the old heads in the
profession, what were the differences back then?
Is it just that the acuity and the frequency
of the fires are getting worse? Or was there
a different kind of leadership 20, 30 years ago?
Well, the fires were definitely not as bad, not
as many and not as big, but also life was different.
You know, more people were willing to live in
the rural areas and have less, make a life of
it. Life was smaller, I think. Life is bigger
now. Life is more expensive. So all those things
play a factor. You know, you're not going to
bring these kids now. out to our stations with
no cell service with uh rat infested bunk areas
and when they live here in this life it's just
everything has changed so the dynamics back then
were different the pay was somewhat reasonable
then i think comparatively because shit we barely
got any sort of raise since then they haven't
even changed it much you know so it's it's it's
all those factors you know people you have your
type of person who likes living out in that way.
And you have less people that like that. I think
nowadays, especially with all the technology.
I saw something on social media and again, did
not research it. So it might not be accurate,
but what it was saying was, I think it was in
the sixties or seventies. I think, I think it
was around that, that era. that someone in college
could basically earn their annual college fees
over the summer. So you'd have a summer job,
you'd work full -time then, and then that would
pretty much cover your university for the next
two semesters. And you compare and contrast.
Now, my wife just came out of med school with
basically half a million dollars worth of debt.
That's what it costs anyone to go into medicine
these days. It's this kind of inequity that's
got worse and worse and worse. It's not that
people are wanting to live in mansions and have
all these luxuries now. Just the cost of doing
the same exact thing that our parents or even
grandparents did that was affordable today is
completely unaffordable. And living in the area
where you're a firefighter is a perfect example
of that. Yeah. Especially here in California
and Southern California, right? This is the hotspot
for... for wildfires and you cannot afford to
live here and just fight fire if my wife didn't
have a job we couldn't have the house that we
do um you know i see it with my kids with the
economy like they can't go out and get an apartment
by themselves they need six roommates you know
it's it's crazy times it really is you know they
what's a the rent here if you can find a good
two two bedroom apartment you're probably paying
twenty eight hundred three thousand a month And
that's if you're lucky. Yeah. It's impossible.
Yeah. You know, I kind of at first when my kids
were becoming adults, it's like, go get out on
your own, you know? But the reality is I'd rather
than pay rent here and then be able to buy a
house, you know, cause it's, it's impossible.
And that's, it's, it's fun to go get six roommates
and live that life a little bit, but that you
have to do that is very sad. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
What about technology? I've had some people on
the show recently talking about drones as another
one. I forget the product's name, but it's literally
a robotic dozer that goes out and cuts line on
its own. You see these drones responding to a
fire when it's first started, so they're able
to tell exactly where it is and direct airdrops
or crews specifically to that area. What are
some of the exciting innovations that you're
seeing from the ground? The drones show up pretty
good. We only have so many people that are qualified
to go do that. So you don't get them on every
fire, you know, but they do try to get, it's
normally a patrol. We'll get those qualifications
to be able to run the, the drone and they'll
show up and it is very useful. It is, we can
even use it to find heat and even in the mop
up stage or, you know, when you've got a cold
piece of, I mean, it's very useful. I love it.
And it's nice to see when they show up the dozer.
I haven't seen so much. I've seen them use those
robotic ones to cut grass along the highway,
but not on the fire line. I haven't seen that.
Okay, I think Steve Wolf was the name. He was
actually a movie pyro guy too, but he's also
behind that, one of the technologies that does
that. Yeah, that'd be interesting to see. I mean,
yeah, that'd be great. I haven't ran across that,
but the drones are amazing. Anytime you put a
helicopter up in the air, man, it's risk. So
it's nice to be able to have that kind of tool
without risking someone's life every single time.
I had a guy on the show, Richard Browning, who
was behind, if you've ever seen it on... instagram
it's like the kind of iron man suit they've got
the jet packs that are on their their arms he's
holding it on the arms and he was talking about
the application of mountain rescue and they did
it in the uk they use paramedics and you basically
can take that pack respond to let's say in your
environment a firefighter who's down immediately
you know treat that firefighter and then use
a drone to take the stretcher down to the ambulance
and then off they go so even from the ems side
on on wildland fires this this application of
technology is pretty exciting yeah that's huge
because definitely out in the field uh that's
our biggest hurdle is is the time crunch on trying
to get to someone or get them the care that they
need if we're out in the middle of nowhere even
with my you know broken leg or something like
that that's yeah that's huge absolutely What
about the conversation when it comes to prescribed
burns to where people are allowed to build? I
know a lot of the wildland firefighters, I'm
sure we had this conversation the first time.
You know, you're trying to do these preventative
burns and local communities are fighting against
it because they don't want smoke in their neighborhood
or they're allowed to build an area that ultimately
is going to put a lot of crews in danger if they
have to respond during a fire. So what about
that whole conversation? And nothing has changed.
It's continued to get worse. There is no fix.
You know, it's like we talked about last time
was the, I use seagulls, I believe last time
as a funny example, but it's the frogs. It's
all the different stuff like that, that you can't
do burns. And then people building houses, like
you say, where they shouldn't is a huge problem,
especially here in Southern California, because
they want the views or they want their privacy,
or you've got the people who want the land where
they can grow weed. It's all those things. And
it's a problem that's not going away. See, what's
crazy is, you know, I am not embedded in the
wildland world. I mean, we did it in Anaheim,
but there were the green gene guys that usually
went and deployed. And I stayed with the municipal
guys in the city. But we have these conversations
with people like you and Ben Strahan and all
these other, you know, Steve Wolf. And there
are answers to these problems. And it blows me
away that, again, the people. that make the decisions
that have these immense budgets don't listen
to people who are on the ground and understand,
hey, the solutions are already there. We just
have to, again, proactively invest and tell the
people, for example, that are using conservation
as a way to combat prescribed burns. It's like,
no, but this is going to conserve so much more
when it comes to the proactive element of it.
I don't understand whether it's the municipal
firefighters work week, whether it's what we're
talking about with wild land, why people just
don't have the humility to go to the people that
have the answers and listen to them. Yeah. I
agree with you 100%. It's mind blowing. The answers
are there. They always have been there. You know,
what did Trump say? Rake the forest, you know,
we couldn't do burns that would accomplish that.
that view but like you say it's those things
in the way that we can't and then it also falls
back to when we do have permission to do those
burns in the right areas now we don't have the
personnel to put it in place the people with
their burn boss qualifications are minimal because
why they're leaving to somewhere else with more
money so all those things continue to play a
factor you know it's it's Like you say, the answer
is there. And I don't understand either why the
people would just won't make the right decisions.
For example, look at here's the local level one.
I got offered a captain spot on an engine that
would have staffed a whole nother module. And
they didn't want to move this engine to a better
location where I said I would take it. And we
had other people that applied that we could have
filled this module. They would rather have it
unstaffed at this other station. because they
don't want to say that they don't have an engine
there and it's been unstaffed for five years
and they could have made a small decision and
we would have had a whole another module filled
it's just i don't understand the decision -making
process at all and i do say stuff i even wrote
a letter about it what about operational examples
the last couple years all the the fires that
either you personally have had or you've heard
of nationally What is the other side? What are
some of the tragedies that are happening because
of this understaffing, because of this lack of
recruitment and retention that we're seeing both
in your world and in mine? You know, that's kind
of a hard one. I wouldn't really want to place
specific blame on someone's loss of life or something
on that. But I do think it does equate to that
in a lot of ways. But, you know, it's we get
put in different kind of situations where. The
fire gets bigger because like I think I told
you last time, you know, we can't fight it appropriately
with the aggressive tactics because we don't
have the personnel to say put fire on the ground,
which could have stopped it in a smaller area.
Things like that. So as it gets bigger, you know,
more accidents happen, more tragedies happen.
With any big fire, the bigger it gets, the more
people you get on it, the more injuries you're
going to have. So I think it all kind of goes
in that, you know. What about the fitness standards?
Is it still the pack test? Is it still the Holy
Grail at the moment? It is. And I think on all
sides of fire, the problem with the fitness standards
are, you know, once people promote to certain
levels, they let themselves go and look at the
younger generation to do the work. And that's
where I think we're messing up because continued
leadership is necessary throughout. the entirety
of the time to keep everybody fit and in shape
you know you're a you're a problem if you're
out there on the fire and and you're not in shape
What have you seen as far as that? What's the
history? Again, the old heads, were they all
in pretty good shape back then? I know they weren't
probably thinking about nutrition and some of
the high level strength and conditioning that
we are now aware of, but were they traditionally
able to do the job a lot more than obviously
what you're witnessing today? I believe so. And
I would have that fall back a little bit too
on just the American diet. what's in our food
now is making us all worse i don't think that
um 20 30 years ago even people ate as bad it
wasn't so much in the food you know so overall
it's just getting worse and worse and worse you
know you have your people who hold themselves
accountable and i respect that um you have to
choose to eat clean you have to choose to stay
on your fitness and uh a lot of people don't
and then when you don't pay attention to what
you're putting in your body, especially nowadays
with all the stuff they put in the food, you're
going to get bad. Well, you're fighting a battle.
I mean, we all know that there are food scientists
that are paid to make the food more addictive.
Same as the cigarettes. You know, it's not just
tobacco and cigarettes. There's all these other
things that are designed to keep you smoking
more and now the vapes. And so, you know, I said
this, I'm sure we talked about this before, but,
you know, I grew up on a farm in England. where
we had an orchard and we had a vegetable garden
and we ate our own meat. So I'm not going to
stand on an ivory tower and say, well, why don't
you eat like me? Well, I grew up in an environment
that set me up for success. I was very, very
lucky. But you grew up in a city, in the bodega
or the fish and chip shop or whatever it is,
is where you normally eat and you watch TV. um
you're not really out there and even if you wanted
to be out there maybe where you live is dangerous
and the basketball courts are run by a gang i
mean it's a very very different environment so
yeah i really like your perspective and understanding
of of how people's environments truly do dictate
no matter how strong they are on a lot of the
paths that they go down i agree with you 100
you know and it's hard uh you really have to
choose like me and my wife would get our meats
from the butcher shop now because it's got less
pumped into it You have to be mindful of it.
The surroundings that you grew up in truly do
dictate how you eat. You're right. People on
ranches and farms, they eat a lot better because
it's their environment. They grew up normalizing
that instead of normalizing Taco Bell and Jack
in the Box. I think that's where the value is
in that story. We should be hearing from the
farmers. Those are the experts. Holistic farmers,
the organic farmers, you know, the ones doing
the rotational, you know, grass finished beef
and all these. These old school practices, that's
who we should be listening to about food. And,
you know, all of a sudden you turn a pyramid
upside down and you're told, okay, now we fixed
it. No, we haven't. Like the quality of the food
is a big part of it. Like you said, are you getting
actual beef that was, you know, able to roam
around and then be processed in a natural way?
Or are you eating chicken breasts that's pumped
with antibiotics and hormones and saline and
everything else that the chicken looks like it
could bench 400 pounds? which of those two are
you getting yeah so true man it really is and
you don't even realize it in this you know they're
even with the uh what is it the gatorades even
in other countries i think in the uk they they
allow different ingredients and i i think i read
something on the cereal god what was it uh some
brand but they're allowed to put like 28 different
type of chemicals in our cereal compared to like
even canada or something like that can't be I'm
not 100 % sure. It was a long time ago, but I
just remember reading something like that. I'm
like, wow. It's what the government allows. Yep.
I know when RFK was talking about removing the
food dye, when I was a child, like really, really
young, there was a big thing in England called
E -numbers, and it was those colors and preservatives,
and they removed them then. So we're talking
early 1980s. So for 2025 to be the big revelation
that you removed preservative or coloring from
food, that's not to be celebrated. The question
is why, like you said, why have we been putting
it in the food for so long? It's sad. I have
that problem with my clients. I'm just always
trying to get them to pay attention to the food
being the biggest factor. I have some that work
their ass off. But they don't change those little
things. And so they'll lose a little bit of quick
weight immediately, especially if they stop drinking
or go on like a 10 -day sugar cleanse, whatever
it is. But it's buying all that regular stuff
from the store and those small little things
keep you stuck. Absolutely. What about psychology?
This is one of the things that I was educated
on a few years ago now. There's a book called
Chasing the Scream with Johan Hari. It's about
addiction. And this one example, there was a
study on diet and they used IV nutrition with
all these people that volunteered. And this one
woman was the rock star of the study and she
lost all this weight. And then one day she disappeared.
And they're like, what the hell is going on?
And they tracked her down and someone who was
very astute that was part of the study said,
well, let's just interview us, find out what's
going on. And as they progressed through this
conversation, they said, well, look, when did
you first start binge eating? And she said, when
I was 10. And he said, well, did anything happen
to you around that age? And she said, yeah, that
was when my grandfather first started molesting
me. And so what had happened with this woman
is as she lost weight and she got the attention
of the opposite sex in this case, it was a complete
alarm response and she didn't want it and she
started eating again. We talk about food as far
as caloric intake and exercise. What have you
seen as far as the underlying why of some of
your clients and maybe even the mental health
element of some of these challenges? Well, I
haven't ran into something that deep or hasn't
been shared with me, if so. But mostly it's environment.
It's the way people grow up. It's the normalization
of barbecues. You know, you go to the barbecue.
Eat all this crap, drink beer, and everybody
does it every weekend, sporting events. You show
up, you snack on all this crap, you drink beer.
It's the environment, the social dynamic of it
being so normalized all over the place. That's
the constant problem. I'm curious about what
you think. That's an interesting dynamic about
the woman who didn't want that kind of attention.
You know, that's pretty deep psychological. little
uh aspect to that um but i could see that being
a thing for for women who wouldn't want attention
you know that that makes a lot of sense um you
know and then just so you know socially over
the years men are it's okay for men to be out
of out of shape and kind of let themselves go
and then this kind of leads me into saying like
women are the one who do the work in my program
because women take care of themselves and take
pride in their appearance and want to work on
their mental health and stay consistent in my
experience most of my successful clients have
been women and you know you have some men who
are strong -willed and want change and continue
through and i've had success with with men i'm
not saying that men can't be but for the most
part women are the ones who take care of themselves
and make the changes but with uh The biggest
hurdle is the lifestyle, what's normalized, the
social drinks, how you hang out with people,
you go out to dinner, all those type of things
are what's in the way. Why do you think that
women are more successful than men in this particular
journey? I think because, well, there's a couple
of different answers for that. It could be the
overall women. are expected with their looks
to be well i don't want to sound you know it
just it is you know they take more pride in their
appearance and their physical appearance so they
care about that and do it where men like i was
saying are more it's it's accepted to have the
dad bod people call it or the beer belly and
stuff like that where it's not the same for women
so in that in that context you know there is
a difference What was interesting to me, and
I've told this story many times, but I don't
think we talked about it. When I first came to
this country, after a while, I kept hearing the
same kind of story. I call it the Uncle Rico
story, where I would have men that were in their,
let's say, late 20s, early 30s. And over and
over again, I would have, should have, could
have been. NFL, NBA, Major League, whatever it
was, if it wasn't for my MCL, my shoulder, my
insert career -ending injury here. But at this
point, they're deconditioned. And coming from
the UK, where we... just didn't train at a high
level for a sport. A lot of us played sports,
but it was kind of like if you were naturally
gifted to be a football, soccer player, you would
find yourself in those particular grooming journeys
and then ultimately play for a Premier League
or something. But the rest of us, we just played.
So there wasn't a high level of physical pressure.
There wasn't a high level of physical stress.
And so when we graduated school, of this generation
at least, people would keep playing the sport.
They'd play pub leagues and local leagues and
football and rugby and cricket and all the things
that we played. And so at that time, you had
people in the 30s, 40s, 50s that were still very
active and still relatively fit and in decent
shape. What I saw in America was we took our
high school and college kids, forged an elite
level of performance, but... arguably at the
detriment of their health and wellness. So once
they broke, now they were physically burnt out,
they were mentally burnt out, and you didn't
see a continuation of a healthy, active lifestyle.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So a lot of
these men that you work with, did a lot of them
report being athletes when they were younger?
Because, I mean, that's a huge issue. I mean,
100%. You hit the nail on the head, man. They
come and they either played high school sports
or college sports or did all these things. And
then after that, just started working, trying
to provide for the family, got caught up in that
being their whole get down and beers at night
to wind down. And it's the same story over and
over and over and over again. Yeah, I think it
just does a disservice to, again, like I said,
the longevity of that adult. um enjoying sport
and i think the multi -sport athlete is the healthiest
one even if you are forging performance but so
they don't get burnt out on a sport they're not
doing you know baseball and then travel ball
and then performance clinics and all these things
and then all of a sudden they blow out their
shoulder and now now they're not playing but
if we can get these kids to still play at a high
level but really be cognizant of what comes next
I think that would be an important part for reducing
the obesity that we see in this country because
people will continue to just play. They'll enjoy
playing rather than be forced to win. And I hate
this participation trophy conversation because
that's what sport is. It's participation. And
I haven't, I don't know if you are different.
I've never seen a team of anyone who put zero
effort in giving a medal. Like you run the London
Marathon, you get a medal at the end. You run
a Tough Mudder, you get a medal at the end. You
compete in jujitsu. and there's four people in
your category, you're probably going to get a
medal. So that's what happens when you put the
work in and you do something. You should be proud
of that medal. But if you're telling that you're
not worth a damn unless you won first place,
to me, that's horrible messaging. I agree with
that. I never really thought about it in the
way that you just laid it out, and I like it.
I like the way that you see that, and I agree
with you. All right. Well, I've been yapping
a lot. Let's get back to you. No, it's good.
It's good. So what has been the metamorphosis
of any, if any, over the last couple of years
with the way that you're coaching and training
now? Well, you just continue to learn so much
about the human dynamics in it all too. You learn
so much from each different person. So I've been
enjoying that along the way. I think that's my
favorite part is working with different people.
And learning, you know, like I just said, it's
always the same story, same story, right? But
each person also has their individuality in it.
And it's fun to be able to dive in with someone
and help them find that, that grit that's still
there or their strength, you know, and it helps
build mine to each person I work with. So just,
I've been continuing to grow with that. My wife's
been really involved with me. She's gotten even
more involved over the past couple of years.
My kids. So it's been really developing well.
What about success stories? What are some notable
journeys that you've witnessed the last couple
of years since we last spoke? I would say one
of my favorite is one of my friends actually
from here. He joined and this falls back on a
conversation that we were having about the environment,
right? So he grew up in the same environment,
drinking all the times, regular barbecues on
the weekend. Just the entirety of the lifestyle
where he got tired of it. I think he was 32.
Cause he's been with me now for just over a year.
And in the first 30 days, he stopped drinking.
He lost 30 pounds in the first 30 days, changed
his entire way of eating everything that he had
normalized, just got tired of it and stopped.
And still every single day he's tagging me in
workouts. He's he just. committed and has stayed
at it and his drive is changing the story that
his kids are growing up in by who he is that's
what it's about that's what my whole program
is about and he's one of the most powerful examples
of it what was it that made him turn the corner
at that particular moment that obviously hadn't
worked prior to that you know that's kind of
a hard one um i'm not I would just say he got
tired of it, you know, and he saw all the patterns
because you have to step back and look at all
the patterns around us. And he did that. And
then he saw what his kids were seeing as the
normalized patterns. And he wanted to change
that. So he made a hard decision and stuck to
it. And that's what it takes. So it was just
being tired of the same patterns and watching
the same shit go on. Didn't want to see the same
thing with kids. The same thing that happened
with me. That was the decision I made. I wanted
to change the story. I wanted to change the patterns.
So that's what it took for me, and I think that's
what it takes for anybody. We were talking about
my most recent book, and one of the biggest themes
in that is generational trauma. And that can
be a negative until you actually see it, and
you see these dominoes falling from generation
to generation. But if you then really, really
take a step back and look at... everything has
happened prior, you can then stop it from falling
on your child. You do the work, you fix yourself,
you stop it from being passed on. And when you're
talking about this particular gentleman's story,
I'm thinking immediately of the CrossFit. It's
not the CrossFit anymore, but I was in a CrossFit
gym and we've transitioned to a different kind
of programming now. But the strength and conditioning
gym that I've been a part of for I think it's
11 years now. And all the parents that I've seen
from not having a child to pregnancy to having
a child now, these kids are 8, 9, 10, 12 years
old. And it's the same thing. Generational growth,
I guess you could call it. When these children
see their parents taking their health seriously,
eating well, trying to reduce or abstain from
alcohol, going to the gym three, four times a
week or doing jujitsu or doing a mud run. that
then is that child's norm. That's their baseline.
And you watch these kids that grow up in gyms
become healthy, happy, fit children themselves.
So I think it's a beautiful analogy of the opposite
of generational trauma is watch these children
that grow up in these active areas and they literally
end up following the exact same path. 100%, man.
That is exactly how I feel about it. I love that
aspect of the whole lifestyle. And you have to
lead by example, especially if that's been the
normal for so long and so many generations of
your family, you have to continue and continue
and continue. And eventually it'll change and
they'll follow along. You mentioned alcohol.
And I know I remember seeing it as you went back
on Instagram and it popped up again. You did
a video on, you know, each glass you were filling
up. So talk to me about that. You know, we collectively,
a lot of us were raised, I mean, in the UK, alcohol
is a part of our culture. I mean, every tiny
village has a post office, a church and a pub.
Talk to me about, again, how you viewed alcohol
early life and then what was that change for
you? Well, it's still normalized, man. God, I
used to drink. to get drunk that was the intent
you know we weren't uh so this falls back on
some people who socially drink right in my environment
that i grew up in we would grab a couple 30 packs
a couple bottles and the intent was to finish
it not have a couple drinks and then save some
for tomorrow all that needs to be gone you know
so i grew up with that being normalized and even
when i started in fire i obviously couldn't really
party on the weekdays because you can't go hike
and fight fire hung over but on my weekends i
would do the same thing i would get get my my
30 pack and my bottle of tequila and i'd finish
it and it was just normalized in my life i thought
that's what was normal and that became not okay
especially as my kids started becoming teenagers
and i saw so much around me falling apart people
dying people making stupid decisions losing their
families There's so many horrible stories that
come from drinking and not much of the opposite.
You know, I've never woke up and not had a hangover
and thought, man, I wish I drank last night.
But the opposite is true with the other side
of that, right? So for me, I just decided that
I needed to change that pattern. You know, my
dad had a big drinking and drug problem. I've
just seen it everywhere in my life. And I didn't
want that for my kids anymore. They were becoming
teenagers. And I just decided I was done. I wanted
to change the cycle of what life was around us
and be something different and create a new direction
for my family. That can be a challenge for a
lot of people, though, myself included. I've
never been a binge drinker, but I've said this
many times. I've been a frequent drinker. When
I get into a groove, I'll have a couple of glasses
of wine or whatever in an evening. And knowing
damn well I have a podcast about health and knowing
that it's going to disrupt my sleep. we what
tools did you use to kind of break the binds
that alcohol had up to that point i had to take
a hard look at my reality and what it's been
how i truly feel about it and really create an
understanding in my mind about what the consequence
of not changing that was so you know i know some
people can drink here and there and that's cool
you know i still go hang out at a football game
people are drinking it doesn't it's not a thing
i just choose not to because it's in the way
of what i want you know but um that video that
i made on instagram is a prime example of where
it leads and from my perspective of what it leads
to you know the first drink you're good and then
you know the effect it has on other people as
you progress and then well there's always more
to where i don't give a You know, it's a pattern
that I've seen. That's my perspective of it.
And so for me, I had to decide, really look back
and think that's not OK. Because I care about
other people, too. I love my wife. I love my
kids. That's what matters to me. So that's not
going to be a part of my life. So I had to really
sit back, analyze what my life is, what I see
the effect of that is not only to me, but all
the examples I have around me and then make a
decision. And I know it's not easy. especially
like we talk about it's normalized around you
and then it becomes that's how you understand
to socialize you know everybody thinks that you
know you go to dinner have a couple drinks you
guys and that's that's what's normalized but
then what then you get in the car and drive you
know there's there's a lot of things that are
just not okay with it in my opinion and i had
to just really set back like i said and pay attention
to what that is and what that means to me How
many months after stopping did you really, really
feel like you were back to 100 %? Well, even
the way I stopped drinking, I would say it was
a long road because in my 30s, I would still
have drinks and even maybe too many drinks, probably
a handful of times. throughout that whole decade
you know i never really put a stop to it in my
head i just thought i'm going to stop that lifestyle
but here and there i'll still have drinks so
i would say at the end of my 30s when i decided
to really say you know what i'm done with it
the feeling better and noticing a difference
was kind of immediate at that point because it
was it was more mental of knowing that I'm done
with that and I'm going to be better and do better.
So that made me feel a different way. Does that
make sense? No, it does. It does. I think one
of the barriers I've found is because I've stopped
for months at a time and waiting for that. You
know, you see it on social media. This is what
one week looks without alcohol of one month.
And I'm there like, when, when am I going to
feel clearer headed and sleep deeper? But I think
my reality, and I'm actually going to go to a
retreat next month is to, to address maybe some.
some elements that i just can't see you know
there's nothing that bothers me per se but there's
got to be something back there hidden that is
stopping me from really gleaning all the benefits
of you know sobriety and all the other things
that i do because i think there's nothing more
discouraging than taking alcohol out and not
really feeling any different which is my personal
journey you know if i felt better i'd be so enthused
and so motivated but i still don't sleep well
i mean i sleep okay but i don't the quality of
sleep and that's that's the piece that i'm missing
i get everything that everyone's telling me and
like i said i can hit stop for a long time but
then when i hit start it becomes frequent again
but it would be so much more encouraging if i
felt so much better without the alcohol and i
don't know if anyone else listening has had the
same experience but when there's really no difference
between the two it it takes away some of the
power of leaning away from it when you don't
really notice the difference between the two,
which is bizarre. Now, acutely, like the day
after, a couple of days after drinking, absolutely,
I notice more of a difference by not drinking.
But as you progress through it, I'm hoping that
my brain is going to get clearer and clearer.
And, you know, inflammation is going to get less
and less like it should happen. I guess there's
other things in my physiology that are stopping
me from getting that full benefit of not drinking
at all. Yeah, because I mean, it sounds like
you don't have a drinking problem to where the
effects of somebody who drinks a lot more than
it sounds like you do would notice those effects
immediately. You know, like my client that I
was talking about him stopping the drinking in
30 days, his life changed dramatically. The inflammation,
his mental health, all those things were pretty
much immediate in that 30 days because he was
living a lifestyle. so heavy in it before that
it really he really did feel those effects and
now he's created a lifestyle proper nutrition
working out where he has a goal to where now
that drinking would be in his way so mentally
he feels better knowing that that's not an obstacle
it's all those different things that are in it
so it depends on really how much of a factor
it plays in your life yeah i think the other
thing is is when the more functional you are
and again when i talk about drinking like i said
it's not It's not a high level of drinking per
session, but when you add units up together,
if you drink every evening and have a couple
of glasses of wine, that still adds up. That's,
that is an issue. But if you compensate well,
like you said, if you still, you know, functioning
really well as a police officer or a firefighter
the next day, you know, then it kind of is like,
well, it's okay then, you know, there's that
little voice in your head. And so by removing
it and not really feeling effects because everything
else you do is probably pretty good. um it's
an interesting psychology because it's not as
motivating but if you saw a big change of course
i think a lot more people be like okay well then
i'm not drinking again because this is so much
better but when there isn't that acute difference
it's almost harder to completely let it go when
you're not seeing that that contrast yeah and
that's when you have to uh i mean depending on
the patterns of your families or people who are
close to you around you like how does drinking
affect them you know yeah how could uh how could
your example of normalizing drinking affect maybe
your kid who would then normalize it and then
maybe not be able to handle it as well as you
and then have uh some some adverse um you know
it's a it's it's just it's a hard one man because
you also have to get out of yourself and think
about how it affects other people. You have all
these people with DUIs every day drinking, you
know, it's hurting other people. I mean, there's
so many different things. So I look at it like
that too. Like how, what would be the example
that I'm setting for my kids? If I'm normalizing
that, I just, I've become to think that alcohol
is like a poison, man. It's, it's just, it's
horrible in society and people, it's so normalized
that people get in their cars and, you know,
after having, good amount of beer or drinks at
dinner and then just drive home like it's normal
and then what if you hurt somebody else so maybe
you're okay with it but how are you affecting
the people that are watching you that you're
leading you know who might not be able to handle
it so well because it's normalized so it's all
those things yeah yeah no i agree completely
i mean my thing is i've realized okay well if
it's not the alcohol per se then what else can
i look into which is why i'm trying some some
alternative things that i will talk about on
the on the podcast in the future but you know
to me it's like i was talking about the thing
beneath the thing what is the reason for depression
anxiety you know the reason that you reach for
a drink sometimes you just don't know what it
is i'm not haunted by calls i don't have anything
in my childhood that you know that i'm aware
of at least it's buried down so i've got to kind
of pull back the curtain and see right what what
is that thing So then what's your problem with
drinking? Why do you think it's a problem then?
Because it doesn't sound like it is in your life.
Because you hit the nail on the head. It's a
poison. And I'm fully aware that it's a poison.
So even if I'm operating at 90 % and we can never
get to 100%, I want to get to 95%. I want to
optimize. I want to be able to, like you said,
be anywhere. And have a beautiful conversation
with a glass of water instead of a glass of wine.
So I'm just aware of the hypocrisy. Yeah. And
that's the thing. A great way to answer that
is it's in the way of being the best version
of yourself. Because it's something that alters
your state of mind and alters your health. So
it's something in the way. That's for me. I don't
want to have a drink because it's in the way
of what my goals are. It's just another thing.
And it sounds like that's what it is for you
is you want to hold yourself to a higher standard,
both mentally and physically. And that's something
when it shows up in your life that's in your
way and doesn't make sense. I think it mirrors
what I've talked about a lot recently when it
comes to the mental health conversation. You
have a certain group of us who are in crisis
and those men and women, you need to pull away
from the darkness and get it to where they can.
think clearly again, and then kind of walk them
forward. But I think a lot of people aren't walking
around so much with suicide ideation or crippling
addiction, but they're in need of help. And we
frame this whole mental health conversation as
these broken people. It's a very sad, dark conversation.
But if you look at the tools for mental health,
They also optimize performance. Like if you want
a wildland firefighter or a law enforcement officer
to be able to critically think when the winds
shift and the clouds are changing or, God forbid,
someone's reaching into their pocket in the back
of a restaurant, you want to be as close to 100
% as you can. And where I see the mental health
conversation is, all right, what if we just want
to be a better firefighter, a better dad, a better
interviewer? These same tools can help you forge
performance. So I think that's with this alcohol
conversation is the same thing. I'm not drowning
in alcoholism, but I'm fully aware that this
crutch is still holding me back from as close
to optimization as I can. And this is really
just a red flag. There's something that's still
holding me back. And how can I address that?
So I think it's kind of exciting because if we
frame mental health the same way. And you use
these tools to optimize performance. So at three
in the morning, we've been banged out. And now
all of a sudden we're at a pediatric cardiac
arrest that you can operate at that highest,
highest level rather than just using the mental
health conversation when someone's talking about
suicide. Yeah. Yeah, that's well put, man. It
really is. The drinking, you know, there's a
big difference between alcoholism, social drinking.
and all those other factors and you just got
to know what yours is and for me like i said
it's it's in the way and i want to be able to
operate at 100 or close to 100 you know as i
can all the time you know there's something i
tell people because it's not always about um
just the alcoholism it's the lifestyle right
so when you choose to get hammered drunk right
and say you have a family and you're passed out
at three in the morning on the couch because
you drank too much what if somebody decides to
come into your home yep you're blacked out drunk
what are you going to do to protect your family
you know so fall back on priorities lifestyle
changes all those different things you know 100
well speaking of optimized what has been the
evolution of wildlife it's gonna be wild fit
life 805 in the last couple of years and talk
to me about the supplementation side that you've
expanded Yeah, man, I, I've really been trying
to get, bring out new supplements. Um, I think
a lot of the stuff that you can get has too much
crap in it. So I tried to get with a company
that it's, it's third party tested, good stuff,
just nice and clean. Cause I don't think everybody
should be taking all kinds of crap all the time.
So I've come out with a protein, um, a pre -workout
create creatine and multivitamins for men and
women. And I just think they have to. perfect
what you need in them and you don't need to be
taking all kinds of other shit. Even the pre
-workout, I tell people you shouldn't be taking
that every day. It would make me more money if
you took it every day, but I don't think you
should be using pre -workout every day. So all
those things, it's been coming a long way, going
good. The coaching has been going good. Again,
that's one of my favorite parts of my life is
working with people and being able to create.
that personal relationship and growth together.
Every person I work with helps me too. So I love
that. And you know, it's gotten me in touch with
different types of people. Like I've been getting
involved in movies, little TV shows. You just
never know where it's going to lead. And I don't
turn down opportunities and I just stay trying
to grow and push. So it's been going really well.
We're starting a. a fund right now we're going
to do this thing where you know you know we lost
our son about one of our sons about two months
ago in an accident i didn't know that oh that's
yeah that's why we rescheduled but oh i'm so
sorry brother yeah no thank you but we're doing
this thing with uh our supplements where we're
gonna we're starting a fund in his name what
we're gonna do um we're gonna send one kid to
an nba basketball camp each year in his name
So we're going to do that as a part of the way
to carry him on and honor that. And so a lot
of stuff like that going on good. Let's talk
about that. How can people listening contribute?
How can they help? I would say just the sale
of the supplements is going to go towards sending
that kid to a camp each year. Other than that,
just... not much in regards to that really beyond
that what about the grief journey that you and
your wife have been on then talk to me about
you know what what has worked if anything at
the moment because i mean you talk about any
challenges as far as mental health and emotional
i mean losing a child is about as bad as it can
get yeah and um he was actually hit by a drunk
driver So that kind of falls back on the topic
we were just having. But the grief has been an
interesting path. But what helps is the tools
that are in place. We've stayed on routine, continued
trying to eat good, are working out, and having
each other. We're doing family counseling, which
is real good. And just staying. as one and using
the tools that we have in place already like
with the fitness and all that you know there's
really no it's unforgiving and uh we're being
here for each other and just you know continuing
down that path having those things in place like
the working out and the eating right is also
powerful in it all i'm creating something for
television and i'll talk to you after we round
off this conversation but um I'd love to get
you on there because it will address one of the
issues that's behind exactly what you've told
us. So I'll just leave that cryptic at the moment
and we'll talk after. For people listening then,
where are the best places to find the workouts,
the supplements? And if you want to expand on
what kind of coaching is available there. So
we're WildFitLife805 and that's on Instagram,
TikTok, YouTube, Justin Mahaffey on Facebook.
We share all the workouts that we do. I do put
a lot of follow alongs on YouTube free for people.
I have different programs that I offer. I have
some I have a low price program that I like to
keep in place for people who are actually struggling.
Single moms. Just people going down a path where
where money's tight. And then I have programs
that are really serious, you know, to, you know,
you pay a good amount and you get. six months
and you get supplements included and it's all
one -on -one coaching. I build you meal plans,
workout plans. We do live zoom workouts multiple
times a week. You can join from anywhere in the
world. Got this, like I said, the supplements
apparel and you know, the things with the program
is if you commit for three to six months to a
program, And then go back to your normal lifestyle.
It's going to be a waste. The way I do my program
is you'll pay the fees and then I have like an
incentive. Once you reach your goal, I drop it
down to 35 bucks a month and you stay a part
of WildFit Life for life. And I'll continue to
build your programs. So you're a part of what
the community is. So that's one of my favorite
things about my program. Beautiful. Well, I want
to throw a few closing questions at you again
before I let you go. The first one I love to
ask, is there a book or are there books that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
conversation today or completely unrelated. A
book. Let's go with your book. You know, the
book I always try to recommend to people, and
I told my kids to read it, is Tony Robbins' book.
It's called Awaken the Giant Within. And that
was my favorite book since I was a kid. And I've
recommended it multiple times on podcasts too.
I think that's a good starting point to really
try to understand yourself. It's got good tools
in it. Fantastic. What about a TV film documentary?
I would say Tombstone and Gladiator. Those are
my two favorite movies. As far as documentaries,
I don't really know. I don't watch very many
documentaries. And talk to me about the Mayans.
So you mentioned about being exposed to the world
of entertainment now. What are some of the roles
that you've been in? So there's a movie that
I'm doing where I'm playing the lead detective.
I'm not sure how that's going to play out or
when that's supposed to come out. I'm supposed
to film some more scenes in April. And then the
Mayans thing, I have a guy, they make short films
and stuff. And he got with all the cast of the
Mayans and he's doing a final episode. And he
asked me to come down and be in it. So I went
and I... I just had one scene. It was pretty
cool. I took my truck down there. One of my sons
went with me and he did the microphone and stuff.
So it was a cool experience. I think that's coming
out really soon. Brilliant. I'll have to look
for that then. All right. Well, next question.
Is there a person that you recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? You know, I do have a friend in
mind. Jason Mitchell would be a good person to
talk to about the fire service and the whole
development of it. He's been involved in the
development of our Type 2 crew, the engine world,
and he's dealt with a lot of stuff in the fire
world and would be a good guest to have. Brilliant.
I appreciate that. All right. Well, the last
question for you, make sure everyone knows where
to find you. We'll just reiterate. What do you
do to decompress these days? sauna and laying
in bed watching TV with my wife. That's our decompression
every single night. We just got into watching
Yellowstone. I don't know if you've seen that
show. Yeah, it's a good one. Have you seen Landman?
Not yet. No, I heard that was a similar kind
of concept. Yeah, it's good too. We're watching
that one and we're doing this other one, Lioness.
Those are our two shows we're watching that night.
Okay. Brilliant. That being said, of all television
or film, who's done the best job of showing the
wildland fire service, do you think? That's a
hard one. I don't really think it's been done.
I guess kind of that Cal Fire one's not too far
off. I mean, that is kind of, I can't remember
the name of that show, but only the Brave, man.
That was a good depiction of the way that we've
trained together, the camaraderie. So I would
say that. Probably only the brave, you know,
it's a little Hollywood, but expected to be,
but I think they did a pretty good job of showing
what it's about. Yeah. They certainly captured
the, the emotion of the whole thing. No question
about that. All right. So just to reiterate one
more time, people want to reach out to you or
find the programming where, where can they find
it? Wildfitlife805 .com or on any social media.
Brilliant. Well, Justin, I want to thank you
again. It's been such an amazing conversation.
I'm so, so sorry for the tragedy that your family's
endured recently, but I hope the people listening
will, you know, go visit the website, look at
the coaching, look at the supplements and be
able to show you that there is this fire family
that is trying to help from the outside as well.
Yeah, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it.
It's an honor being back on your show and talking
with you. We'll be doing it again one day.