WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by 5 .11, a company

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that I've used for well over a decade and continue

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as well. Their jeans stretch. You can actually

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to episode 338 of the Behind the Shield podcast

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with the CEO and founder, Francisco Morales.

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even more about Thorne, go to episode 323 of

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Behind the Shield podcast, and you will hear

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my interview with Wes Barnett and Joel Totoro

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from Thorne. Welcome to the Behind the Shield

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podcast. As always, my name is James Geering,

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and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome

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on the show Thomas Newman. Now, Thomas is a renowned

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coach. sports scientist, and the chief innovation

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officer at Hawken Dynamics. So we discuss a host

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of topics from his journey into sport, the power

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of data analysis within sports science, selecting

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elite tactical and sporting athletes, fostering

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longevity, his own extremely powerful mental

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and physical health journey battling a brain

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tumor, and so much more. Now, before we get to

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this incredible conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment, go to whichever

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app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Each five

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-star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library for you, Planet Earth,

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of over 700 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you Thomas Newman. Enjoy.

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Well, Thomas, I want to start by saying firstly,

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thank you for being patient while my dinosaur

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computer rebooted. And secondly, welcome to the

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Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you so

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much for having me on. So where on planet Earth

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are we finding you this afternoon? We are located

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in Boston, Massachusetts, so where I was born

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and raised. Well, perfect segue because that's

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the next question. So tell me exactly where you

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were born and tell me a little bit about your

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family dynamic, what your parents did and how

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many siblings. Sure. Yeah, I grew up in Boston,

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whole life. My mother was a nurse. So again,

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kind of caring for others has been central part

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of kind of my ethos growing up. So just me and

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her. And she went on, got her PhD. So I got to

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see someone highly educated, highly trained,

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but also committed to her craft. And so that

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was huge. And kind of being the only child, I

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got all of it. So that intensity that she brought

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really kind of instilled into me, I think, both

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in how I carried myself in school and then also,

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too, in the profession now. So, yeah. It's definitely

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been part of my makeup, if you will, of what's

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led me to my journey today. Well, what was your

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perception? I mean, you're an only child, but

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then you've got a mother who doesn't have a job.

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She has a career, a profession. What did you

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see as far as how she was able to balance the

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two? I mean, she was so tough. I mean, my goodness,

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like people think that I'm, you know, grizzled

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and, you know, driven and whatever, but I'm a

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cream puff compared to her because she was able

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to balance a PhD full -time job and with me and,

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and, you know, we were Irish Catholics, so I

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didn't grow up, you know, I didn't grow up getting

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things handed to me, but, you know, I think learning

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about, you know, my first business was in fourth

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grade. I had a funny story I tell people. I hated

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taking out the trash, but that was your duty.

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And I said, man, this this really sucks. And

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I live in a condo complex that has 60 different

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units. And I was like, I bet there's other people

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that hate taking their trash out. So, you know,

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I got a loan from my mom for a wagon. And so

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I got the wagon, put all my trash in. I said,

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well, now that I'm out and I went door to door

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and I started my own trash business and I charged

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a quarter for a bag of trash. And then it was

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a dime for recycling. But what happened is, is

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in the neighborhood. Um, people started, uh,

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just, you know, giving me a dollar here, a dollar

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there, but we did it once a week. Cause that's

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what I had to do. But then I was like, man, I

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bet you I could do this, uh, you know, twice

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a week. And then it turned into three times a

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week and enough that I had my neighbor ended

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up pulling the wagon and I could just go door

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to door. Uh, we got shut down by the condo association

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after a few months. Um, but again, that's kind

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of been my entrepreneurial spirit. I try to,

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you know, find problems, find solutions, but

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I get from my mom that kind of, if you're going

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to do it, do it well. So anybody that knows me,

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I'm pretty intense. pretty driven for the things

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that I want to do and really taking your time

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before you get into something to be committed

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to doing it all the way. So even in high school

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athletics or college athletics, it wasn't, I'm

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just going to play sports. I want to be the best

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there ever is and the best there ever was. And

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then professionally, I don't want to win the

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conference. I want to try to win a national championship.

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And so I think a lot of that comes from her because

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again, she did so much for her field and career.

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I mean, spanning over. I mean, her first job

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was at Mass General back in 1960, 62, or maybe

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it was at the Baptist. But she taught all the

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way up until 2011, 2012. So that was quite a

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journey that I got to watch. Now, with her being

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a single parent, but in a profession that at

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least today pays somewhat well, were you driven

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to earn because of any element of... needing

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more or was it more, you know, wanting to contribute

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to the family? When you look back now, what was

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behind a fourth grader being so innovative? I

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mean, again, I'm pretty lazy. I didn't want to

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do it, but if I'm going to do it, I might as

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do it well. And I mean, we didn't, you know,

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we weren't struggling. It was just your basic

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Metro West Boston, you know, family, one car

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and we went to public school. So I wouldn't say

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I was deprived of anything, but my mom would

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be like, if you want to go get this. go go get

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it and so um and she would support like i said

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you know you give you a loan for the wagon well

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guess you paid that loan back no interest she

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thought it was a great deal um and so um but

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that's kind of what she taught me is that if

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you want to go if you want it go get it like

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and think it through um but she was always you

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know you know she was one of those ones if you

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join the team and you hate it you don't quit

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you know you don't complain about playing time

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you should be so good there's no question And

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again, I think a lot of that was imprinted early

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on because I never, I mean, in my entire time,

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I can't think of a time where she would whine

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or complain. I mean, she just was made a steal

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and she's like, just go do it. Like there was

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no other option. And I think that that is something

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I'm truly grateful for instilling both on a personal

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level and professional level. So with athletics

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and sport, what were you playing and doing in

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school age? Believe it or not, I actually was

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pretty good at volleyball back in the day. And

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I know now I'm gravitationally gifted. I tend

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to stay low to the ground. But back in the day,

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we basically had the equivalent of if Bill Belichick

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decided to coach in a local high school. Peter

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Sujo was our coach, along with Andy Mather. But

00:11:00.110 --> 00:11:02.610
Peter had just come from Europe. His son was

00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:06.179
16. actually got a full ride to USC. So any of

00:11:06.179 --> 00:11:07.940
our California listeners may remember the name

00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:10.299
Donald Sujo. He played on three Olympic teams.

00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:14.860
His father was my middle school volleyball coach.

00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:16.980
And so we were running offensive play schemes,

00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:19.379
playbooks, and all this kind of stuff at 10,

00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:22.500
11 years old, doing statistics and running the

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offense. We did really well. And obviously, you

00:11:26.330 --> 00:11:27.750
know, at the high school level, it's cool to

00:11:27.750 --> 00:11:29.629
see we had a bunch of guys band together to do

00:11:29.629 --> 00:11:32.289
something great. And we did. And so then that

00:11:32.289 --> 00:11:33.970
run throughout high school was pretty awesome.

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Played club. Some of my best friends I've been,

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you know, and I think people forget this in sports.

00:11:38.289 --> 00:11:40.649
It's the relationships you build. My outside

00:11:40.649 --> 00:11:42.990
hitter, I was his best man at his wedding. And

00:11:42.990 --> 00:11:44.929
we can tell stories about, you know, training

00:11:44.929 --> 00:11:47.529
or lifting or anything like that. But it was

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a great opportunity where athletics gives you

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kind of a little microcosm to build relationships.

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So we did that. um and you know the record and

00:11:55.659 --> 00:11:59.480
i tell the story um now we went 24 -0 we won

00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:02.200
everything state championship i'll never forget

00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:04.080
one of the parents said congratulations this

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is the best athletic accomplishment you're ever

00:12:05.860 --> 00:12:07.320
going to have really enjoy it and i remember

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looking at him and being like i'm just getting

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started and he's like you're a cocky little and

00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:14.059
sure enough um yeah and it wasn't that it was

00:12:14.059 --> 00:12:15.720
how you had to be player of the year so we did

00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.740
that and you know all american did that and so

00:12:18.740 --> 00:12:21.000
throughout those times and those things are Club

00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:23.059
team, I think, went 96 -4, which is still the

00:12:23.059 --> 00:12:25.580
record for the club. But nevertheless, it's high

00:12:25.580 --> 00:12:27.799
school, but that same mentality. It wasn't just

00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:30.720
go play volleyball. It was be, you know, school

00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.519
much bigger than you, be better than them. And

00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:36.340
we were pretty psychotic with training all year

00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:38.600
round, in the morning, at night, in the snow,

00:12:38.779 --> 00:12:42.039
set up lights, get creative. And I do think that

00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:44.159
that... helped me a lot when it got into coaching,

00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:48.179
because I think you can only train to the level

00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:49.379
that you've been a part of. And that doesn't

00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:51.679
mean you have to play. So there's some great

00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:53.539
coaches in the NFL that never played in the NFL,

00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:57.559
but they have mentored under those that have

00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:00.259
gone to those high heights. So having Peter early

00:13:00.259 --> 00:13:02.519
on in my career talk about numbers and statistics,

00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.039
I think probably helped a lot of my influence

00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.840
to where I am today with Hawken Dynamics. Because

00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:10.539
again, I see the game of sport and movement a

00:13:10.539 --> 00:13:13.169
little bit differently. Because breaking everything

00:13:13.169 --> 00:13:16.029
down into numbers is kind of my thing. Well,

00:13:16.049 --> 00:13:17.509
speaking of mentorship, you mentioned that you

00:13:17.509 --> 00:13:19.129
grew up with your mother. Did you have any relationship

00:13:19.129 --> 00:13:22.450
with your father at all? I did not, no. So that

00:13:22.450 --> 00:13:24.429
was just, again, that's all I ever knew. But

00:13:24.429 --> 00:13:26.690
I think a lot of the male influences I have came

00:13:26.690 --> 00:13:29.350
in the form of coaches. And then obviously just

00:13:29.350 --> 00:13:31.429
people within our tribe and community. I think

00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:34.039
about my... friend from third grade, her father

00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.820
was an incredible person, influence. And again,

00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:38.899
plumber, you know, I come in and complain about

00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:40.379
something like, oh, yeah, you want to crawl through

00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:42.559
a, you know, a pipe with me and you can go see

00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:44.639
what that smells like. Maybe, maybe, maybe you

00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.500
just go right back to doing your lifeguard job.

00:13:46.580 --> 00:13:49.120
And I was like, Roger that, like, got it. So

00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.399
that's where I think a lot of my influence comes

00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:55.320
in on that side. When you look back at the way

00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:58.500
you were coached, middle school, and if you carried

00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:01.549
on the high school that level as well. with a

00:14:01.549 --> 00:14:04.669
2023 lens what were the things that they were

00:14:04.669 --> 00:14:06.870
doing right and what were the things that maybe

00:14:06.870 --> 00:14:08.429
they thought they were doing right at the time

00:14:08.429 --> 00:14:10.990
but now you know x amount of years later we realize

00:14:10.990 --> 00:14:14.789
that wasn't the best way it's hard to say because

00:14:14.789 --> 00:14:16.929
again when you're dealing with generations i

00:14:16.929 --> 00:14:18.330
think generational coaching is different i mean

00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:20.590
sure even you know probably yourself there's

00:14:20.590 --> 00:14:22.970
things that are just different and and giving

00:14:22.970 --> 00:14:25.750
the information they had at the time um it was

00:14:25.750 --> 00:14:27.490
the best but maybe they would do things differently

00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:30.429
but i mean Again, they were output driven of

00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:32.090
trying to, you're going to go win a state championship.

00:14:32.190 --> 00:14:34.009
You need to be the best player in the country.

00:14:34.090 --> 00:14:36.210
You need to do this. And it was very black and

00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:39.889
white. And I think at that time period, it worked.

00:14:40.009 --> 00:14:42.490
And we also had individuals from 11 years old

00:14:42.490 --> 00:14:44.789
to 18 years old, seven years in that system.

00:14:45.789 --> 00:14:48.940
By the time that senior year rolled around. There

00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:51.279
was no other option. There was no other question.

00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:53.919
And people would always ask. And, you know, I

00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:56.059
know they have that Kanye meme, which didn't

00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:57.919
age very well about the, you know, what would

00:14:57.919 --> 00:14:59.419
happen if I didn't succeed? I guess we'll never

00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:01.840
know. We weren't going to leave it any at any

00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.799
doubt that we weren't going to win. And I remember

00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:05.779
guys across the board handling it differently.

00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.100
And so I think that intensity, you know, we were

00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:11.659
forged in that environment to do something great.

00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.759
I don't know now, especially at the high school

00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:19.360
level, if you can have such a black and white

00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:21.340
contrast without having some problems. Because

00:15:21.340 --> 00:15:23.779
again, we do realize where it fits within the

00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:25.259
community and the environment. But again, if

00:15:25.259 --> 00:15:27.039
you want to do something elite, you got to go

00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.340
outside of your comfort zone. And I think more

00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:32.990
than ever. for a lot of good reasons, administrations

00:15:32.990 --> 00:15:34.570
have been very mindful. Like you're not doing

00:15:34.570 --> 00:15:37.850
these workouts now for mental toughness and getting

00:15:37.850 --> 00:15:39.610
away with it. You have to be really careful.

00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:41.990
And so I think that's good. But I also do think

00:15:41.990 --> 00:15:43.690
that, I don't know if I would be where I'm at

00:15:43.690 --> 00:15:45.730
today if, you know, you didn't realize there

00:15:45.730 --> 00:15:48.649
are consequences to your actions or inactions

00:15:48.649 --> 00:15:50.830
and it impacts the people to the left and right

00:15:50.830 --> 00:15:53.809
of you. And that's so analogous to both, you

00:15:53.809 --> 00:15:56.830
know, sports, but also professions. And so you

00:15:56.830 --> 00:15:59.960
start becoming. more of a selective person, I

00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:01.720
would say, where you want to try to find people

00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:03.860
like you. So that way it's not an issue. Like

00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:05.259
if you call me and say, I need you at three in

00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:06.679
the morning, there's no question I'm going to

00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:08.740
be there versus, well, that's outside of my work

00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:10.940
zone or that's not really, I'm kind of tired.

00:16:11.059 --> 00:16:13.460
Nobody wanted to hear that. And again, that was

00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:15.500
really good. But I think today, I don't know

00:16:15.500 --> 00:16:18.340
how much that black and white intensity would

00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:19.740
be received, particularly at the high school

00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:22.279
level. So an observation that I've made, and

00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:23.659
I've talked about this a lot, and it's people

00:16:23.659 --> 00:16:25.639
like yourself that are the right people to ask

00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.139
these questions, either you or someone who is

00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:32.080
an athlete and or a coach. When I first moved

00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:33.919
to the States, and I've told this many, many

00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.820
times, but very, very long story, very short.

00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.700
I was struck by how many people I met, Uncle

00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.139
Rico's quote unquote, who told me the could have,

00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.000
would have, should have been story about whatever

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.740
sport they were in. And it always ended the same

00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:51.860
way. Well, I blew out my insert joint here at

00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:54.940
18, 19, 20. And I'm like, what the fuck is going

00:16:54.940 --> 00:16:58.919
on in this country? In the U .A., yes, there

00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.320
are some elite athletes in all sports, but it's

00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.359
you. you don't have that elite performance in

00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.220
the school and college level normally. And there

00:17:07.220 --> 00:17:09.519
certainly isn't the money and the TV exposure

00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.440
and all that stuff behind it. So what you see

00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.519
in the UK, or at least when I was young, was

00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:16.960
you would finish school, you graduate school,

00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:18.980
but people would still play their sports. There

00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:22.359
was longevity in movement, in sport, in games.

00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.099
Whereas here, I saw a much higher level of athleticism

00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:28.640
in the high school than... collegiate athlete

00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.339
but then almost like a complete drop to inactivity

00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:36.059
after they they went out with some of these conversations

00:17:36.059 --> 00:17:38.839
now it's like well where is as you touched on

00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.940
before where is that fine line between performance

00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:45.079
i want to win for my school but also wellness

00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.059
and longevity for these children basically that

00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:51.920
we're responsible for yeah and i think the the

00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.660
most concise answer that i can give is that if

00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:56.599
someone gives you their body and so you're you're

00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.940
a coach strength coach whatever to the greatest

00:18:00.940 --> 00:18:03.220
degree you need to make sure that those transitions

00:18:03.220 --> 00:18:05.480
are set up well and we've seen this across the

00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:07.240
board you know you're the high school athlete

00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.960
well then that's your identity it's not a sport

00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.599
you're not an athlete it's part of who you are

00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.180
i'm a volleyball player i'm a football player

00:18:13.180 --> 00:18:17.059
when that final whistle blows And I remember

00:18:17.059 --> 00:18:20.839
when we lost to Hawaii by two points in the third

00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:25.140
set of the final four out, and I believe it was

00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:28.420
Arizona that year. In that final whistle blew,

00:18:28.539 --> 00:18:30.680
I was like, wow, it's over. And I don't know

00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.380
if people handle the it's over very well. So

00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:36.960
I've looked at a lot of the LTAD stuff across

00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.680
different countries where they do a much better

00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:40.859
job of transitioning. You were a player. Well,

00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.000
guess what? Now you're an alumni. So it's not

00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:45.200
over. It's just now changed. And then when you're

00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.180
done with being an alumni, you move into being

00:18:47.180 --> 00:18:49.279
a junior coach and then you become a senior coach.

00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.700
And so trying to make sure that people don't

00:18:51.700 --> 00:18:54.440
feel like that, you know, that final day comes

00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:56.960
and then they have to reboot, I think is critical.

00:18:57.299 --> 00:18:59.460
I know for football, you know, the lineman's

00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:01.339
a great example. They finish in November. We

00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:03.299
play Harvard. Well, guess what? All spring, we're

00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:05.460
putting them on weight loss plans because they

00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:08.200
no longer need to be 300 pounds. It's not good

00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.700
for their longevity, but also to their whole

00:19:10.700 --> 00:19:13.980
life. has been structured down to the minute,

00:19:14.019 --> 00:19:17.759
probably since Papa Warner or junior high school.

00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.200
And so now being 21 years old with all this free

00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:22.059
time, it's not necessarily a good thing. I'm

00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:24.160
not saying you have to force it because again,

00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:26.660
out of 10 guys, maybe you have two or three that,

00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.779
you know, feel fine or they're self -motivated

00:19:28.779 --> 00:19:30.160
or they're just, they're, they're glad to be

00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:32.839
away. And that's totally cool. But the individual

00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:34.880
that just misses coming to lift at three o 'clock

00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:36.819
with the music blast, and why are you just booting

00:19:36.819 --> 00:19:39.039
them out? And I remember seeing that. So I think

00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.980
as a practitioner paying close attention and

00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:43.819
the military talks about this too, with the seals

00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:46.839
and the guys coming out of, you know, the elite

00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.980
army units, you got to have a community and a

00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:51.619
tribe because when you take someone out like

00:19:51.619 --> 00:19:53.819
that, bad things happen. Cause so much of your

00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:55.779
decision -making on a day -to -day basis is on

00:19:55.779 --> 00:19:57.960
the guys and the ladies to left and right of

00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.359
you. And when that is gone, I think people have

00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.420
a hard time with it. So that's where I think

00:20:02.420 --> 00:20:05.000
that could be handled better. Absolutely. It

00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.539
aligns with something we were talking about recently.

00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.420
I had a female high school student on the show

00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:13.519
about two years ago now, Emma Benoit, and she

00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:16.279
didn't have acute childhood trauma. She didn't

00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.099
have a lot of these commonalities that a lot

00:20:18.099 --> 00:20:21.420
of these people do have when they end up getting

00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:22.480
to a point where they want to take their own

00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.599
lives. And Emma actually pulled the trigger.

00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:26.279
She survived her attempt, is in a wheelchair

00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.160
now, but now she's an incredible force in the

00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:31.980
mental health side of advocating for, you know.

00:20:32.349 --> 00:20:35.549
positive mental health but one of her big things

00:20:35.549 --> 00:20:37.990
that struck me is that her stress was she was

00:20:37.990 --> 00:20:40.109
going to leave school and there was some there's

00:20:40.109 --> 00:20:41.450
a little bit of bullying and all that kind of

00:20:41.450 --> 00:20:43.690
stuff as well but ultimately we forget that these

00:20:43.690 --> 00:20:46.329
children have been in these schools since they

00:20:46.329 --> 00:20:48.390
were three four five whenever they kind of began

00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:52.109
pre -k and now they're 18 and they may feel very

00:20:52.109 --> 00:20:54.549
successful as a football player as you know my

00:20:54.549 --> 00:20:57.910
son's in jrotc so there's these tribes and then

00:20:57.910 --> 00:20:59.930
one day they're going to be given their piece

00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:02.079
of paper and then they walk out the door And

00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:03.500
some of them are going to find another amazing

00:21:03.500 --> 00:21:05.240
tribe and they're going to thrive. But some of

00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.140
these kids are going to be on their own. And

00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:10.019
like you said, that door is closed. That whistle

00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.119
was blown. And I think we've really got to look

00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:14.700
at the mental health impact of that as well.

00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:17.740
If we're not transitioning our kids from high

00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:20.460
school into hopefully more sports and movement,

00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:24.240
but also into, you know, creating a bridge into

00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:25.960
especially a trade. If you're not going to go

00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:28.670
and become a doctor or a lawyer. then all these

00:21:28.670 --> 00:21:30.809
amazing things fire service for example that

00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:33.390
you can go into so they don't hit a brick wall

00:21:33.390 --> 00:21:36.569
the moment they leave school yeah i think you

00:21:36.569 --> 00:21:38.309
have to also and probably one of the things that

00:21:38.309 --> 00:21:40.730
i've grown a lot as a coach i've always been

00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:42.940
by the numbers, black and white, analytical.

00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:45.000
But really, as I've gotten older, and I credit

00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:47.460
a lot of this to the researchers I worked with

00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:49.640
at Yale, looking at the emotional intelligence

00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.000
and really looking at the emotional profile of

00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.099
someone and how physiologically they may be downgrading

00:21:55.099 --> 00:21:57.259
or deconditioning, but their mind still might

00:21:57.259 --> 00:22:01.720
be sharp. And again, it's very hard, even from

00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:05.900
a neurochemical level, of what gets them fired

00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:08.000
up. And I would tell the story to the players.

00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:09.359
I said, how many of you guys love seeing your

00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:11.079
game stats, getting likes on Instagram? And so

00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:12.619
they all raised their hand. I'm like, cool. How

00:22:12.619 --> 00:22:14.400
many of you guys, when you were little, like

00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.380
to get presents from Santa? And they raised their

00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:18.759
hand. I said, what if Santa gave you presents

00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:20.079
now? And they all kind of gave me this weird

00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:21.299
look. Like, what are you getting at? I'm like,

00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:24.160
but how do you feel when you give a gift to someone

00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.539
else? And they kind of pause. And you do get

00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:30.660
this moment where your satisfaction or self -worth

00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:33.619
validation comes from the act of within your

00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:36.829
tribe. providing, protecting, or producing things.

00:22:36.990 --> 00:22:39.569
And I think that again, to your point where if

00:22:39.569 --> 00:22:42.589
that gets ripped away, just on a chemical level,

00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:44.490
you don't feel that same happiness. You know,

00:22:44.509 --> 00:22:46.990
you expect to be great, but you want to help

00:22:46.990 --> 00:22:48.750
other people. And I know people struggle with

00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:51.789
that. You know, you made me think of, so Scott

00:22:51.789 --> 00:22:55.690
Atron is a researcher out of Michigan. And he

00:22:55.690 --> 00:22:57.269
did a really famous study where they actually

00:22:57.269 --> 00:23:00.849
did fMRI scans of detainees in Guantanamo and

00:23:00.849 --> 00:23:03.230
what they found. And again, you think about ISIS

00:23:03.230 --> 00:23:05.150
fighters, extremists, things like that. How do

00:23:05.150 --> 00:23:07.069
you get to that point? You're a firefighter.

00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:08.730
How do you get someone who wants to run into

00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:11.250
a flaming building or, you know, in the military

00:23:11.250 --> 00:23:15.250
run towards the bullets? Those are non conducive

00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:18.710
beliefs for longevity of life. But for some reason,

00:23:18.730 --> 00:23:21.269
they must do it. And in your top performers,

00:23:21.450 --> 00:23:23.450
regardless of running, running, pushups, sit

00:23:23.450 --> 00:23:26.450
ups, all that kind of stuff. There's a biological

00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:30.390
and structural difference in the brain for those

00:23:30.390 --> 00:23:32.750
people that have a propensity for team. And so

00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:34.970
that selection process, I think, is so important

00:23:34.970 --> 00:23:37.170
to be mindful that if you have someone that's

00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:42.069
very, very receptive to team, don't just bring

00:23:42.069 --> 00:23:44.009
them into something and then rip it out. And

00:23:44.009 --> 00:23:45.609
then you can see and you'll see those guys coming

00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:47.769
a mile away. And we used to talk about the rule

00:23:47.769 --> 00:23:49.930
of three in football. If you go out on the town.

00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:52.410
Three of you got to be together. And everyone

00:23:52.410 --> 00:23:54.470
will be like, why? Because the rates of incidence

00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:56.289
of issues with individuals when they're in the

00:23:56.289 --> 00:23:59.049
group of three, out of three of them, one of

00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:01.250
them is going to say, this is a dumb idea. Two

00:24:01.250 --> 00:24:02.890
of them, they might egg each other on. But for

00:24:02.890 --> 00:24:04.549
whatever reason, that group of three, and that's

00:24:04.549 --> 00:24:07.769
how powerful relationships can be that I don't

00:24:07.769 --> 00:24:10.069
want to let you down. I want to actually make

00:24:10.069 --> 00:24:11.890
you look good. And that's why if you ask any

00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:14.430
of the elite operators, oh, you guys are so brave.

00:24:14.470 --> 00:24:16.130
So what's the first thing they all say? No, I'm

00:24:16.130 --> 00:24:17.920
just doing my job. Didn't want to let my team

00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.240
down. And it is horrific for them to think that

00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.440
they would let their buddies down rather than

00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.220
letting themselves down. So I think that you

00:24:25.220 --> 00:24:27.720
as a coach or you as an instructor need to be

00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.319
very mindful of where that person is and realizing

00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:31.779
that even some of the toughest dudes, if you've

00:24:31.779 --> 00:24:34.539
listened to some of Sean Ryan's podcast, he's

00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:37.220
on tough, tough dudes coming on and crying. So

00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:39.420
you can't just say, oh, we'll just deal with

00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:41.799
it. You know, it's only words. And I think being

00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:44.230
more mindful of that is. probably going to have

00:24:44.230 --> 00:24:46.170
the greatest impact in coaching in the next five

00:24:46.170 --> 00:24:48.650
to ten years is how do we understand that and

00:24:48.650 --> 00:24:50.750
nurture that and not just blow it up because

00:24:50.750 --> 00:24:53.430
it didn't work absolutely well and it's so pertinent

00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:55.930
to the first responder professions as well so

00:24:55.930 --> 00:24:58.309
speaking of you know the the work that you do

00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:01.650
now kind of walk me through the beginning of

00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:03.390
that so when you were in the school level what

00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:05.269
were you dreaming of becoming and then how did

00:25:05.269 --> 00:25:08.490
that take you into the sports science world yeah

00:25:08.490 --> 00:25:11.809
so my my iron bug moment That's what I call it

00:25:11.809 --> 00:25:14.650
is when I had stress fractures, I was a senior.

00:25:14.990 --> 00:25:17.609
Our team was going to be ranked. Our club team

00:25:17.609 --> 00:25:19.849
was nationally ranked. Everything's going great.

00:25:20.130 --> 00:25:22.490
And then in the fall, my, my shins just started

00:25:22.490 --> 00:25:25.089
hurting like bad. And I mean, I would push through

00:25:25.089 --> 00:25:27.009
it and play, but I mean, it got to the point

00:25:27.009 --> 00:25:29.069
where it was super bad. Like it felt like I was

00:25:29.069 --> 00:25:30.789
getting hit with a baseball bat every time I

00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:33.210
landed. So we went over to the hospital and they,

00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:35.640
you know, do the imaging and you've got stress

00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:37.440
fractures, you've got bilateral stress fractures.

00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:38.640
And of course the question was, when was the

00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.859
last time you had a day off? And I was like,

00:25:39.859 --> 00:25:43.579
eighth grade. So, you know, cause we would play

00:25:43.579 --> 00:25:45.920
all year round. And so then I had to stop and

00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:48.299
that sucked. That was hard. Cause I watched,

00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.519
this is supposed to be the flagship year. You

00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:52.819
know, I was all excited and looking forward to

00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:54.819
it. And that was taken away from me. So now I

00:25:54.819 --> 00:25:58.279
had to do PT going through that process. And

00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.680
I'll never forget, I was in Walpole, Massachusetts

00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.579
at Core Fitness, and I had gotten some magazine

00:26:03.579 --> 00:26:06.359
that talked about speed ladders and drills. So

00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:07.920
I was like, well, it's in the magazine. I should

00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.660
try that. So I did some sort of botched rendition

00:26:10.660 --> 00:26:13.900
of the icky shuffle and or just other footwork.

00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.619
And the guy came around the corner and goes,

00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:18.519
hey, you want a plan? You want a workout plan?

00:26:18.700 --> 00:26:20.339
And I was like, who are you? He's like, Brian

00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:22.140
McDonough. I'm the director of strength and conditioning

00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.140
here. I was like, what's that? So he kind of

00:26:24.140 --> 00:26:27.250
explains it to me, whatever. does an eval, does

00:26:27.250 --> 00:26:29.710
some stuff, wrote me a plan. And I'll never forget

00:26:29.710 --> 00:26:31.950
that I do the plan. And like each day I got stronger.

00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:34.650
And then the jumping, I jumped higher. And I

00:26:34.650 --> 00:26:35.869
was like, how does this, how does, how does this

00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:37.730
thing and that thing together? And then there

00:26:37.730 --> 00:26:39.450
was a, we go through it. There was a picture

00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:42.109
of me at Penn state. And again, I'm all of, you

00:26:42.109 --> 00:26:44.390
know, five, 10, probably trending five, nine

00:26:44.390 --> 00:26:47.470
now where my whole face and head was up at, you

00:26:47.470 --> 00:26:49.289
know, eight feet and I'm penetrating and I'm

00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:51.289
doing the block over the net. I'd never been

00:26:51.289 --> 00:26:52.849
able to do that. And I remember telling him,

00:26:52.849 --> 00:26:55.009
I was like, This stuff's magic. And he goes,

00:26:55.029 --> 00:26:57.190
it's not magic. It's exercise science. Go learn

00:26:57.190 --> 00:27:00.529
it. And so that set me up in the spring to go

00:27:00.529 --> 00:27:02.190
to University of Rhode Island. And so I finished

00:27:02.190 --> 00:27:04.049
with a degree in communication and a minor in

00:27:04.049 --> 00:27:06.589
kinesiology, but spent a lot more time hands

00:27:06.589 --> 00:27:09.130
on training and just really became fascinated

00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:11.990
with physical culture. I didn't know it was called

00:27:11.990 --> 00:27:14.150
that at the time, but just historical stuff of

00:27:14.150 --> 00:27:16.490
training and then, you know, learning the science

00:27:16.490 --> 00:27:19.650
and the physics was super great. And so I took

00:27:19.650 --> 00:27:22.779
that and ran with it. and did my internship and

00:27:22.779 --> 00:27:24.440
that's how i ended up in my first college job

00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.519
at salve regina university and that was super

00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.220
impactful and so i had a really great mentor

00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:31.759
in tom blaney and he was another one of those

00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.079
ones figured out fio and then you come in and

00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:37.619
you learn and then we had a weird exchange of

00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:39.400
where the textbooks didn't line up with what

00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:42.480
was really happening That wasn't how it worked.

00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:44.619
And he's like, correct. And so then you start

00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:46.259
figuring out, and you just start racking up floor

00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:48.019
time. And so I've had a lot of great mentors

00:27:48.019 --> 00:27:51.640
since then, but I do credit Brian McDonough taking

00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.259
the time. I didn't have money to pay him. He

00:27:54.259 --> 00:27:56.079
now has his own facility and works with the New

00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.740
England Patriots. So he's continued to work with

00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:00.619
countless Super Bowl champs and everything. But

00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:02.220
I thought that was such an important moment because

00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:04.859
he didn't have to reach out. He didn't have to

00:28:04.859 --> 00:28:08.039
do that. So as he paid it forward, um, that made

00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.180
a big difference on me. And so I'll always, I

00:28:10.180 --> 00:28:11.799
did something this summer with the local high

00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:14.859
school, um, some training stuff. And so you always,

00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:17.160
I think you need to have at least, at least 5

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.980
% of your kind of year, have something to give

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:21.980
back and give it to the kid where it can make

00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:23.440
a difference, the middle school, the high school,

00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.119
um, and just, you know, instill to them, instill

00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:29.319
in them that they can be great. I think a lot

00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:31.220
of people forget that some young individuals

00:28:31.220 --> 00:28:33.900
just need to be told, Hey, go be a badass. Hey,

00:28:33.980 --> 00:28:37.190
go be great. go shine. And, and how powerful

00:28:37.190 --> 00:28:39.289
that can be for, especially like you said, someone

00:28:39.289 --> 00:28:41.329
who maybe at home doesn't have that. That's where

00:28:41.329 --> 00:28:43.970
as a coach or an instructor, you can make a profound

00:28:43.970 --> 00:28:47.930
impact way outside of the athletics. Absolutely.

00:28:48.069 --> 00:28:49.990
Well, I mean, my son has that at home. I mean,

00:28:50.049 --> 00:28:52.119
you know, like to think i still walk the walk

00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.500
but i still step back and his mentors and jrotc

00:28:55.500 --> 00:28:58.420
and track and cross country do that as well because

00:28:58.420 --> 00:28:59.940
i think that's the other thing is even if you

00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:02.420
are creating a good environment for your child

00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:04.240
you've also got to have the humility to know

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.559
that you're not the expert in that area and you

00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.220
know some i think some parents think that all

00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.220
of a sudden they know the entire world of soccer

00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:11.640
or whatever it is that their kid just started

00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.420
doing but if you've got a good leader step back

00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:17.440
and let them lead Yeah. And I think where those

00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.400
dads mean well, and the helicopter parents in

00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:24.599
general, moms too, it's okay to care about your

00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:26.460
kid. But when you start doing the, my kid's not

00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:28.900
getting enough playing time, you need to go out

00:29:28.900 --> 00:29:30.779
and practice. I think that is, we've shown with

00:29:30.779 --> 00:29:32.940
research, that is the worst thing you can do

00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:36.119
to instill lifelong love for activity because

00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.259
then it becomes a job. And at some point, the

00:29:38.259 --> 00:29:39.700
kid may be really interested in middle school,

00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:42.079
but then high school, it's not there. And I fall

00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:43.700
back on that whole thing that my coach said to

00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:45.279
me is whatever you want to do in life, do it

00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.079
passionately. But if it's not, then step out.

00:29:48.140 --> 00:29:49.819
And I think people need to have those moments

00:29:49.819 --> 00:29:52.859
to step out. And no matter how I think about

00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:54.759
with my son, you know, when I brought him in

00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.049
and. He's going to do a workout with me. And

00:29:57.049 --> 00:29:58.430
I don't remember if he's in middle school or

00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:00.210
whatever, but he goes, when am I going to get

00:30:00.210 --> 00:30:01.789
to work with a real coach? I was like, excuse

00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:03.250
me. He's like, I want to work with coach. Whoever

00:30:03.250 --> 00:30:05.009
one of the interns that I had at the time was

00:30:05.009 --> 00:30:07.150
like, yeah, right on. And you're always going

00:30:07.150 --> 00:30:09.390
to be dad. Yeah. You're always going to be mom

00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:13.250
or husband. Yep. And just stay out of your, stay

00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:15.269
out of the way and try to be supportive. And

00:30:15.269 --> 00:30:19.190
when they're ready, um, try to provide a buffet

00:30:19.190 --> 00:30:20.890
of options. Don't try to shove the food down

00:30:20.890 --> 00:30:22.930
their throat and make them, you know, do it this

00:30:22.930 --> 00:30:25.140
one way. Cause what worked for you may not. work

00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:27.539
for them and all you're doing is creating friction

00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:30.019
where it doesn't need to be absolutely well i

00:30:30.019 --> 00:30:32.579
coach a crossfit gym and a few years ago one

00:30:32.579 --> 00:30:36.000
of my fellow coaches who um in the crossfit world

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:38.220
where he got to the top level that they had at

00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:40.359
the time i think it was level three or four or

00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:43.039
whatever it was very very intelligent guy um

00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:45.680
and my wife was training at the time as well

00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:47.819
and i would you know say hey babe you know you

00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:49.859
need to you need to do this this and this and

00:30:49.859 --> 00:30:51.880
she would just ignore me and i'd be all right

00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:54.500
steve can you tell becky to do this this and

00:30:54.500 --> 00:30:56.140
this and he'd tell her and she'd be like oh that's

00:30:56.140 --> 00:30:57.799
such a good idea steve thank you so much and

00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:00.779
i'd just be like oh for fuck's sake but though

00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:02.819
you said sometimes you do exactly someone just

00:31:02.819 --> 00:31:05.759
have to say all right you you listen to them

00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:08.299
they know as much if not more than me they're

00:31:08.299 --> 00:31:11.039
now your go -to person and more importantly you'll

00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:12.519
actually listen to them because they're gonna

00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:14.220
you're gonna say do an extra rep and they're

00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:15.480
gonna be like yeah you still didn't do the dishes

00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.279
last night and like what what are we doing what

00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:20.400
are we bringing this in for but just again know

00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:23.019
your know your lane and stay in it now just touching

00:31:23.019 --> 00:31:25.339
on the sports science for a second i did my ex

00:31:25.339 --> 00:31:27.720
-phys in university of north london a two -year

00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:30.700
and then finished up at uf and an observation

00:31:30.700 --> 00:31:32.960
being a coach the whole time as well and when

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.420
i say a coach a very part -time coach um was

00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:39.940
i didn't see a huge application from the academic

00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:43.480
world to set you up well to be a strength and

00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:47.279
conditioning coach in the real world what has

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.619
been your observation of the academic side and

00:31:49.619 --> 00:31:55.680
that transition yep um great question research

00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.599
and academia is super important it's super important

00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:01.859
for advancing knowledge and physiology and leveraging

00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:04.019
all the the valuable things that science can

00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:07.660
do but the practical applied field has a lot

00:32:07.660 --> 00:32:10.579
of different constraints that researchers don't

00:32:10.579 --> 00:32:12.539
always you know, jive with it. You know, I love

00:32:12.539 --> 00:32:14.079
when it's like, well, you know, do this workout,

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.539
this workout, you know, whatever. And I'm like,

00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.240
well, what if there's a giant exam on Thursday?

00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:20.339
What if coach gets pissed and like runs the hell

00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:22.779
out of them on Tuesday? How do you take that?

00:32:22.779 --> 00:32:24.640
Well, don't, because remember, science wants

00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:27.339
to control as many variables as possible, but

00:32:27.339 --> 00:32:29.720
that's not real. And so actually speaking with

00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:31.359
Dr. Kramer and, you know, we're actually working

00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:34.000
on a book that'll be coming out probably this

00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.400
summer with Human Kinetics, where we try to break

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.079
that down. And what we boiled it down to is there

00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:41.920
are three C's that you need in order to be successful.

00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.960
So you need to have the credentials. So we're

00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:46.559
going to go and say, you need to know like where

00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.660
your elbow is and where your kneecap is. So that's

00:32:49.660 --> 00:32:52.200
foundational credentials. So you need to know

00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:53.940
what a par Q is. If you're going to be training,

00:32:54.140 --> 00:32:56.480
you're going to need to know how to do coaching

00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.359
cues. You're going to need to know the difference

00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:00.680
between a counter movement, jump with your hands

00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:02.380
and a counter movement with your hands on your

00:33:02.380 --> 00:33:05.160
hips. So you need to know of those things. The

00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.259
next thing is you need competence. And so competence

00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:10.099
is the ability to apply that knowledge. And that's

00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:12.400
really a competence is where you have two branches

00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:14.759
of passionate people. You're either going to

00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:17.619
go into research where competence means you're

00:33:17.619 --> 00:33:19.900
standardized and you're thorough. Competence

00:33:19.900 --> 00:33:21.920
means you're now taking that knowledge and putting

00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:25.440
it in a packageable product that works. And so

00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:27.680
you have to have higher levels of emotional intelligence.

00:33:27.740 --> 00:33:30.640
And remember, in the hard sciences, biology and

00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.480
physics and things like that, the brain that

00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.849
goes into that. is very analytical so to find

00:33:36.849 --> 00:33:39.329
someone who's got the range to you know be able

00:33:39.329 --> 00:33:41.230
to read the room read the facial expressions

00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:44.329
also be able to calculate a power equation that's

00:33:44.329 --> 00:33:47.109
um that's a thing that you know you kind of genetically

00:33:47.109 --> 00:33:49.630
have to be wired for and then and mentored and

00:33:49.630 --> 00:33:51.869
then you have to run the system so i think about

00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:53.890
computers like you mentioned you have your computer

00:33:53.890 --> 00:33:56.589
boot up Some are going to boot up quick. Some

00:33:56.589 --> 00:33:58.549
are going to boot up slow. We know for a fact

00:33:58.549 --> 00:34:00.390
from when I ran the internship at Yale, it's

00:34:00.390 --> 00:34:04.450
roughly 500 to 800 hours of floor time coaching,

00:34:04.650 --> 00:34:08.590
active coaching floor time to make you like usable,

00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:11.230
like less likely to kill somebody where you have

00:34:11.230 --> 00:34:12.829
enough wherewithal to be like, wow, the crash

00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:15.230
guards are down or you know what this person

00:34:15.230 --> 00:34:17.329
looks like they're having a bad day. Maybe it's

00:34:17.329 --> 00:34:20.530
not a good time to go heavy. So that's just to

00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:25.690
be, you know, somewhat somewhat hireable, and

00:34:25.690 --> 00:34:27.110
then you need to get your certifications and

00:34:27.110 --> 00:34:28.809
stuff, which goes into your credentials. So now

00:34:28.809 --> 00:34:30.090
you've kind of got that. And then the next thing

00:34:30.090 --> 00:34:32.150
is the commitment. And where this is where I've

00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:34.670
seen is that you can have some really good people

00:34:34.670 --> 00:34:37.730
that like after 10 hours of work in the week,

00:34:37.789 --> 00:34:40.190
they're, they're shot. And I think, especially

00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:42.329
now, as we look at the new paradigm of sports,

00:34:42.449 --> 00:34:45.070
you have a sports scientist, and then you have

00:34:45.070 --> 00:34:47.349
a data analyst, and then you have a nutritionist.

00:34:47.349 --> 00:34:49.409
You have all these ists, probably about nine

00:34:49.409 --> 00:34:52.190
to 10 ists that now are involved in the development

00:34:52.190 --> 00:34:55.320
of an athlete. And each one of them has various

00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:57.139
levels of commitment. I think that's probably

00:34:57.139 --> 00:35:00.820
where I've seen some of the greatest friction

00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:04.239
is that you have someone who's super, super good

00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:06.079
at what they do, and they love coming in from

00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.980
eight to two. But the athletes all need to be

00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:12.280
seen at five. And they've got a family. And again,

00:35:12.460 --> 00:35:15.179
it's no fault on the individual. That's what

00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.980
you offer. But as an administrator, you need

00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:20.030
to look and say, well, what? For the next six

00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:22.449
months, what is the commitment level? And as

00:35:22.449 --> 00:35:24.210
people get older and they have more experience,

00:35:24.369 --> 00:35:26.210
they also have a lot more responsibilities. And

00:35:26.210 --> 00:35:28.230
that's not to a fault, but that needs to be managed

00:35:28.230 --> 00:35:30.829
appropriately, even down to little things like

00:35:30.829 --> 00:35:33.170
scheduling, having consistent scheduling. So

00:35:33.170 --> 00:35:34.610
that way you can have alignment. So you really

00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:37.190
need the credentials. So you do need to know

00:35:37.190 --> 00:35:39.170
kind of things. You need the competence. So that's

00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:42.269
your internships, mentorships, seminars. And

00:35:42.269 --> 00:35:44.309
you need as much as you need. And everybody's

00:35:44.309 --> 00:35:46.309
different. And then you have to have that commitment.

00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:48.940
I mean, pretty typical we see in strength and

00:35:48.940 --> 00:35:51.139
conditioning. People get excited. They come in

00:35:51.139 --> 00:35:53.500
in their early 20s. They get their degree. They

00:35:53.500 --> 00:35:56.500
either get a GA, a master's, or an unpaid internship.

00:35:56.840 --> 00:35:58.599
Then they get picked up at an assistant level.

00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:01.139
They ride that out. Some go to directors, or

00:36:01.139 --> 00:36:03.539
then they branch out or burn out. And so we see

00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:05.639
that in between the 30 to 35 -year -old range.

00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:08.440
And so, and I can even speak for myself, you

00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:10.380
know, had a great time at Yale. It was an awesome

00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:12.840
experience. We accomplished a lot of firsts evers.

00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.030
But also now at Hawken. The idea is that I can

00:36:17.030 --> 00:36:19.090
have a conversation with anyone in the globe.

00:36:19.650 --> 00:36:22.369
I'm working on rehab in Cairo. I'm talking to

00:36:22.369 --> 00:36:25.630
people in Bangladesh and people in Chile for

00:36:25.630 --> 00:36:28.250
how they're approaching their talent ID. So it

00:36:28.250 --> 00:36:31.469
has a step. And so for me, I followed almost

00:36:31.469 --> 00:36:34.769
that course to a T at 35 saying, OK, how do I

00:36:34.769 --> 00:36:36.489
make an even greater range? It was probably one

00:36:36.489 --> 00:36:38.469
of the best recruiting pitches our CEO ever made.

00:36:38.530 --> 00:36:40.570
He said, good job doing all that stuff in New

00:36:40.570 --> 00:36:42.769
Haven. Why don't you want to take it to the next

00:36:42.769 --> 00:36:44.510
level and make a global impact? I was like, oh.

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:46.860
That's very interesting. Let me think about that.

00:36:46.900 --> 00:36:49.579
And that's how I got into touch with all the

00:36:49.579 --> 00:36:51.599
operators and people like that. I just wouldn't

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:53.679
have time in the college setting. So I think

00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:55.960
that's really the role academics plays. And I

00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:57.960
do think it's important. And even people say,

00:36:58.019 --> 00:37:01.039
well, grades don't matter. Grades kind of do,

00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.000
because let's be honest, we all know that like

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.900
physiology and anatomy sucks, but do you have

00:37:05.900 --> 00:37:08.300
enough wherewithal to get a 4 .0 or get a 3 .5?

00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:10.880
Because the grades, all that showed me was your

00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:13.440
commitment to trying to get it done. If you roll

00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:15.619
in with a 2 .7, 2 .5, I'm going to say, well,

00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.239
I didn't like school. Well, guess what? In the

00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:19.739
profession, you're going to do a lot of things

00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:22.360
you don't like. And if your degree of liking

00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:25.239
it degrades how committed you are to excellence,

00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.039
that's a problem. Like I can teach you science,

00:37:28.099 --> 00:37:29.800
I can teach you reps, I can teach you teaching,

00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:32.519
but if excellence, you know, committing to excellence

00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:34.420
isn't in your vocabulary, I don't know if that

00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:36.119
can be created. I think you either have it or

00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:39.139
you don't. Excellent. Well, thank you for that.

00:37:39.219 --> 00:37:41.440
One more kind of tangent before we walk through

00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:44.260
Yale and the data analysis and all the incredible

00:37:44.260 --> 00:37:46.679
things that you were doing there. You mentioned

00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.039
about shin spins. I touched on, you know, overuse

00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.099
injuries resulting in these, you know, basically

00:37:52.099 --> 00:37:55.989
handicapped 18 -year -olds. One thing that seems

00:37:55.989 --> 00:37:58.710
to be a common denominator that's come from a

00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:04.030
lot of the coaches on the show is the athlete

00:38:04.030 --> 00:38:06.389
that just has driven down one sport their whole

00:38:06.389 --> 00:38:10.329
childhood seems to have a much higher likelihood

00:38:10.329 --> 00:38:12.809
of injury, but the multi -sport athlete seems

00:38:12.809 --> 00:38:15.329
to be a lot more resilient. What is your perception

00:38:15.329 --> 00:38:19.030
of that idea? Yeah, and I get it because what

00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:20.789
they're trying to allude to is repetitive motion.

00:38:20.949 --> 00:38:23.449
And obviously, I think someone who plays soccer.

00:38:24.650 --> 00:38:27.389
Probably because, again, it's on grass or turf

00:38:27.389 --> 00:38:30.210
versus a basketball player or maybe tennis where

00:38:30.210 --> 00:38:33.010
the surface is hard. And also soccer, you're

00:38:33.010 --> 00:38:34.590
predominantly running. Those are things that

00:38:34.590 --> 00:38:37.090
we do. But take someone playing ice hockey. That's

00:38:37.090 --> 00:38:39.829
not normal mammalian. Nobody wakes up with skates

00:38:39.829 --> 00:38:42.030
out of the womb. That's a trained skill. So I

00:38:42.030 --> 00:38:44.389
think your hyper skilled sports are probably

00:38:44.389 --> 00:38:48.469
a little bit more track to get over training.

00:38:48.570 --> 00:38:51.070
But on the flip side, on those three sport athletes.

00:38:51.630 --> 00:38:53.909
Well, the reason why they play three sports is

00:38:53.909 --> 00:38:56.889
because they're really good. So, you know, sometimes

00:38:56.889 --> 00:38:59.110
you see those single sport athletes. You know,

00:38:59.110 --> 00:39:01.710
I think we had a kid in our in our area in high

00:39:01.710 --> 00:39:05.449
school. He played on the football team and he

00:39:05.449 --> 00:39:07.269
was the quarterback and won state titles. Then,

00:39:07.369 --> 00:39:09.030
you know, he was at six to he could dunk and

00:39:09.030 --> 00:39:10.969
hit his head on the rim. So he played basketball

00:39:10.969 --> 00:39:13.289
and then he played baseball in the spring. And

00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:16.829
so his three sports wasn't out of him trying

00:39:16.829 --> 00:39:19.699
to preserve his longevity. I do think that. If

00:39:19.699 --> 00:39:21.980
LeBron tried out for the ping pong team, nobody's

00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:24.480
going to stop him. You just have this kind of

00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:26.719
athleticism. So whenever we look at those problems,

00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:30.059
I don't know if I'm down the track of specialization

00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:31.900
because there are places that do it right. Like

00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:33.780
you mentioned in England, the Aspire program

00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:38.900
and some of the other talent pipelines, those

00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:41.380
are going on and they're managed fine. But in

00:39:41.380 --> 00:39:44.099
the United States, we have a problem. High school

00:39:44.099 --> 00:39:46.019
coach isn't talking to the basketball coach,

00:39:46.099 --> 00:39:48.000
isn't talking to the club coach. So I think it's

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.780
a load management problem, knowing that every

00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:54.239
individual, their resiliency to their load is

00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:55.900
largely genetic. And then with their training,

00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.099
if you are weaker and more elastic, load hits

00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:01.500
you differently than if you're slower and stronger

00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:04.559
or even fast, but strong to absorb those eccentric

00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.760
shocks. Shin splints, tendon issues are because

00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.659
something took the load that isn't really supposed

00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:14.920
to. Well, that's a perfect segue to where you

00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:16.980
found yourself. So a lot of people, when they

00:40:16.980 --> 00:40:20.920
think of strength and conditioning, we're looking

00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:24.119
at the regular blueprints and, okay, if I do

00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:27.119
A, B, and C, then athlete X is going to perform

00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:31.159
this way. You found yourself in a much more analytical

00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:35.559
arena. So walk me through how you found yourself

00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:39.320
in the kind of data space and then how that applied,

00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.610
especially as you got into Yale. Yeah. I mean,

00:40:42.630 --> 00:40:45.389
as we mentioned, the data stuff was really hammered

00:40:45.389 --> 00:40:47.190
into me in seventh grade where we were sitting

00:40:47.190 --> 00:40:49.010
there in ninth grade going to Boston College.

00:40:49.170 --> 00:40:50.849
One of our coaches worked with the club team

00:40:50.849 --> 00:40:54.010
there and just statting and charting. And so

00:40:54.010 --> 00:40:56.590
the law of large numbers became pretty evident

00:40:56.590 --> 00:40:59.570
that, you know, I can make you better. You know,

00:40:59.570 --> 00:41:01.510
someone who has a 300 hitting on the outside

00:41:01.510 --> 00:41:03.530
and volleyball, they're never necessarily going

00:41:03.530 --> 00:41:06.590
to be hitting 600. The person who just is always

00:41:06.590 --> 00:41:09.190
late, not squared away, that kind of end product

00:41:09.190 --> 00:41:11.789
that the numbers don't lie. And where people

00:41:11.789 --> 00:41:14.210
get in trouble is they'll say, you know, vertical

00:41:14.210 --> 00:41:16.989
jump, or we've talked before, bench press. They

00:41:16.989 --> 00:41:19.829
pick one thing. And I think that's probably the

00:41:19.829 --> 00:41:21.989
biggest mistake that I see now, both as a coach

00:41:21.989 --> 00:41:23.789
and someone who works at Hawk and where people

00:41:23.789 --> 00:41:26.750
get married to this one thing, instead of realizing

00:41:26.750 --> 00:41:30.130
we got to look at a collection of things, created

00:41:30.130 --> 00:41:32.929
a weighted composite. And then that composite

00:41:32.929 --> 00:41:36.409
is a great driver of failure, not success. I've

00:41:36.409 --> 00:41:38.809
said time and time again, there is no such thing

00:41:38.809 --> 00:41:42.429
as. talent identification, you know, there's

00:41:42.429 --> 00:41:44.530
only turd identification. You can say someone

00:41:44.530 --> 00:41:46.369
who's four foot. I mean that. And then by the

00:41:46.369 --> 00:41:48.010
way, anybody listening, I say that with the most

00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:51.010
loving, you know, appreciation for people that

00:41:51.010 --> 00:41:53.230
try myself included. I was really good in high

00:41:53.230 --> 00:41:55.829
school, but guess what? At five foot 10 playing,

00:41:55.949 --> 00:41:58.889
you know, setter and volleyball. The next level

00:41:58.889 --> 00:42:00.889
up would have required me to be taller. And I

00:42:00.889 --> 00:42:02.869
can't, there's nothing I can genetically do to

00:42:02.869 --> 00:42:05.889
get taller. And so you kind of reach these limits.

00:42:06.010 --> 00:42:07.710
And so that's just the nature of the composite.

00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:10.710
And I also think that there's nothing wrong if

00:42:10.710 --> 00:42:12.570
you don't have an elite composite, just if you

00:42:12.570 --> 00:42:16.829
enjoy pickleball, if you enjoy golf, do it. Like

00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:18.309
I, that's my, it's currently where I'm at in

00:42:18.309 --> 00:42:20.050
my stage of my life is whatever you can do to

00:42:20.050 --> 00:42:22.550
get people moving and disconnected and unplugged

00:42:22.550 --> 00:42:25.500
all for it. Like I'd rather people try and try

00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:27.460
and you're not doing it at that elite level.

00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:31.880
When we talk about sports, I mean, if you want

00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:34.780
to win, we know the recipe for this. We know

00:42:34.780 --> 00:42:37.340
how to go through. And especially the more money

00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:39.980
there is in a sport, the more refined that composite

00:42:39.980 --> 00:42:41.880
is. So if you told me you want to win in football,

00:42:42.099 --> 00:42:44.679
we can give you a blueprint to do that. You want

00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:46.699
to do it in basketball now. When we get into

00:42:46.699 --> 00:42:49.539
Cirque du Soleil or ballet, that's tricky because

00:42:49.539 --> 00:42:51.260
there isn't the same kind of money as there is,

00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:53.679
say, in the NFL. And so that's where we're starting

00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:56.219
to see more research going towards building these

00:42:56.219 --> 00:42:58.820
composites. And if you use kind of an insurance

00:42:58.820 --> 00:43:02.099
risk management, risk mitigation model, that's

00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:04.260
very effective. And, you know, I think about

00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:06.260
some of our customers that had their first year

00:43:06.260 --> 00:43:08.159
working with us and, you know, magically it was

00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:10.179
the best year ever. Now they all got new jobs.

00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:13.199
So super cool. I'm glad that it worked, but they

00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.179
had to initially take that leap of faith when

00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:17.400
we're talking about some of these things about

00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:20.679
giving meaningful numbers in a composite format

00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:23.519
that they can ultimately do something about with

00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.360
realistic confidence and reducing those liabilities.

00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:30.960
So whether it's on a roster, 20 % of the team

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.289
is going to make up 80 % of the production. That's

00:43:33.289 --> 00:43:35.250
the Pareto economic effect and it's everywhere.

00:43:35.489 --> 00:43:37.710
So instead of trying to make that 20 % better,

00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:40.250
let's go for the low hanging fruit and make that

00:43:40.250 --> 00:43:45.250
80%, 70 % or 60%. And the reduction of a liability

00:43:45.250 --> 00:43:48.570
is an asset to a program. Now to an individual,

00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:51.449
and we talked to on the individual operator or

00:43:51.449 --> 00:43:55.619
in firefighting. Do I necessarily care about

00:43:55.619 --> 00:43:57.659
the guy on the job who's been there 15 years

00:43:57.659 --> 00:44:00.380
about making their 40 yard dash better or their

00:44:00.380 --> 00:44:03.539
bench press better? No, that individual has an

00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:06.880
incredible amount of experience and we need to

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:08.980
make sure that they can still touch their toes,

00:44:09.139 --> 00:44:11.579
that they have healthy range of motion, that

00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:13.800
their sleep, because now when they started, they

00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.260
were single individual and now they have a family.

00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:18.079
And so this person isn't sleeping and they've

00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:21.690
been put on a 24 hour shift. my focus on the

00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:24.610
composite now goes to that you know reducing

00:44:24.610 --> 00:44:26.670
those areas of friction and that's ultimately

00:44:26.670 --> 00:44:29.289
what makes a bigger impact and so really using

00:44:29.289 --> 00:44:31.449
financial modeling but i still you know long

00:44:31.449 --> 00:44:33.710
-winded answer to say it goes back to what i

00:44:33.710 --> 00:44:36.590
saw in high school and then now applying that

00:44:36.590 --> 00:44:40.250
into the domain of training stimulus well i have

00:44:40.250 --> 00:44:41.829
a lot of questions when it comes to the tactical

00:44:41.829 --> 00:44:44.829
athlete but before we do talk to me about where

00:44:44.829 --> 00:44:48.059
yale was at And then what you brought, you know,

00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:49.900
you and your team brought to that particular

00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:53.460
college and then what the results were. Yeah,

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:57.019
so it was a crazy story in that I was a CEO of

00:44:57.019 --> 00:45:00.420
a tech startup for five years and we had software

00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:02.440
that we had built to do the modeling we just

00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:06.380
talked about. And that came to an end and I kind

00:45:06.380 --> 00:45:08.420
of just took some time to recharge. But having

00:45:08.420 --> 00:45:10.820
so many different customers at the college level,

00:45:11.380 --> 00:45:13.840
Yale was a customer. And they reached out and

00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:16.039
they said, hey, all that stuff you did before

00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:17.320
at the other company, would you like to do it

00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:20.360
here? I don't know, go back and forth. But then

00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:22.000
I remember getting the call from the head football

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.780
coach and he straight up said, he's like, we

00:45:23.780 --> 00:45:26.539
haven't beat Harvard in 10 years. And I'm like,

00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:28.579
all right, right. Harvard, yeah, got it. And

00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:29.980
then the lacrosse coach said, we want to win

00:45:29.980 --> 00:45:32.760
a national championship. And I commonly remember

00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.739
talking to both of them and we worked out a deal

00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.659
and I started there in January of 16. And in

00:45:37.659 --> 00:45:40.079
hindsight, I probably came off pretty arrogant

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:43.349
that I said, yeah, no, we can do that. But I'm

00:45:43.349 --> 00:45:46.710
so confident now of what I know in the data and

00:45:46.710 --> 00:45:49.230
how to manipulate it with training to get a result.

00:45:49.570 --> 00:45:52.530
We did it. And then that first year in 2016,

00:45:53.530 --> 00:45:55.530
I think we were three and seven, but we beat

00:45:55.530 --> 00:45:58.429
Harvard, which again, at Yale or Harvard, either

00:45:58.429 --> 00:46:00.510
of those institutions, you can lose every game,

00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:02.849
but if you beat them, it's a success. So people

00:46:02.849 --> 00:46:06.530
were really excited. And then in 2017, not only

00:46:06.530 --> 00:46:09.090
did football beat Harvard again, they won their

00:46:09.090 --> 00:46:10.989
first outright title since I believe the early

00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:13.480
80s. So now this is like you're just getting

00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:15.480
lucky in football. It's on an upswing, whatever.

00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:18.380
But lacrosse wasn't doing too shabby either.

00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:22.119
And so in 2018, we played Duke at Gillette Stadium

00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.860
here and beat them in the national title, which

00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:27.880
was shocking. And then we had the player of the

00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.440
year, the Heisman. For anyone on the West Coast

00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:32.119
who doesn't know, the Heisman for lacrosse is

00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:34.519
the tourton. And that's a really big honor that

00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:37.280
nobody had ever even been nominated for. and

00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.500
our captain ben reeves who now is in med school

00:46:39.500 --> 00:46:42.780
going to cure cancer uh he uh he got the number

00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:45.380
one player award so we literally won everything

00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:49.139
possible for the two teams that i had had you

00:46:49.139 --> 00:46:50.980
know just within about two years of implementing

00:46:50.980 --> 00:46:53.840
this kind of approach and it's not you know people

00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:55.639
ask what's the what's your favorite workout best

00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:57.739
exercise let's let's not talk like that it's

00:46:57.739 --> 00:47:00.510
very much individualized medicine approach that

00:47:00.510 --> 00:47:02.550
we developed. And then eventually when I was

00:47:02.550 --> 00:47:05.250
promoted to oversee the entire department as

00:47:05.250 --> 00:47:07.289
the director of sports performance and innovation,

00:47:07.630 --> 00:47:10.130
I was able to leverage all of the tools at the

00:47:10.130 --> 00:47:13.849
university, build custom hardware, work on analytics.

00:47:13.989 --> 00:47:15.969
And then I was lucky enough, and I say this in

00:47:15.969 --> 00:47:19.010
every podcast I'm in, I had the most incredible

00:47:19.010 --> 00:47:22.429
staff ever assembled. I believe at the college

00:47:22.429 --> 00:47:25.449
level that you look at what we did. We looked

00:47:25.449 --> 00:47:26.829
at some of the graphs that we were doing and

00:47:26.829 --> 00:47:28.809
I'm talking about, we got to the point of figuring

00:47:28.809 --> 00:47:31.889
out if I take you and I measure your elbow and

00:47:31.889 --> 00:47:34.530
I measure your knee with the DEXA scans we had

00:47:34.530 --> 00:47:36.309
with the med school, we could forecast how much

00:47:36.309 --> 00:47:38.210
lean muscle you had. And we knew that if you

00:47:38.210 --> 00:47:39.829
were an offensive lineman and you didn't have

00:47:39.829 --> 00:47:41.829
at least a certain size elbow and a size knee,

00:47:41.929 --> 00:47:44.389
you weren't going to get to 200 pounds of muscle,

00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:46.050
which means you weren't going to be a first team

00:47:46.050 --> 00:47:48.349
all Ivy. And so we embedded that into recruiting.

00:47:48.909 --> 00:47:51.190
Same thing in lacrosse. We started finding these

00:47:51.190 --> 00:47:54.210
unique things. that really gave us really good

00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:56.170
predictions. And so think about fantasy football

00:47:56.170 --> 00:47:58.909
or fantasy sports. We were so far ahead of our

00:47:58.909 --> 00:48:02.369
time in 2017 and 2018 that it really set Yale

00:48:02.369 --> 00:48:04.349
up for success. And when I left there, I believe

00:48:04.349 --> 00:48:07.389
there were 16 teams in the top 25. We had all

00:48:07.389 --> 00:48:09.909
Americans. We had football players getting drafted.

00:48:10.070 --> 00:48:11.590
I think currently there's five or six in the

00:48:11.590 --> 00:48:13.670
roster, which has been a long time if ever Yale

00:48:13.670 --> 00:48:15.889
had that. But the leading tackler for the second

00:48:15.889 --> 00:48:19.409
year in a row is a Yale guy, Foye Aluokin. And

00:48:19.409 --> 00:48:21.940
that's an individual that He's a great example

00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:25.239
of he did everything that we asked in our program

00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:27.820
to buy into the process and he saw the results,

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.340
but he didn't do it because he said, I will do

00:48:30.340 --> 00:48:33.599
this only until I get to the NFL and be one of

00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.039
the best linebackers ever. He just did it because

00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.139
he believed in me as a coach and that allowed

00:48:38.139 --> 00:48:40.300
him to go shine and his successes will continue

00:48:40.300 --> 00:48:43.300
him. Rodney Thomas, Dieter Iceland, you know,

00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:45.360
Jaden Graham, all of these guys will continue

00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.320
to go on. So I'm really excited about that. And

00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:50.860
that's on the men's side, but then also. We got

00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:53.500
golfer of the year. You know, we had some gymnastics

00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:57.400
ladies become All -Americans. The lacrosse team,

00:48:57.460 --> 00:48:59.260
women's lacrosse team hadn't had a winning season

00:48:59.260 --> 00:49:01.340
in a long time. And then they were nationally

00:49:01.340 --> 00:49:04.980
ranked in the top 25. Women's ice hockey when

00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:07.019
Coach Bolden come in, I don't think they had

00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:09.920
a winning season ever. And then they made it

00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:13.039
to like the final four. So very exciting to work

00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.940
with such incredible athletes. And that's the

00:49:15.940 --> 00:49:18.380
thing probably I miss the most is that. Yale

00:49:18.380 --> 00:49:20.019
kids were very smart and they probably taught

00:49:20.019 --> 00:49:22.539
me more than I ever taught them because they're

00:49:22.539 --> 00:49:24.480
going to be rocket scientists, brain surgeons,

00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:27.539
who knows what. And they were just really exceptional

00:49:27.539 --> 00:49:31.179
people. And so I do miss that. And then my staff.

00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:34.000
And since then, the staff has gone on. My first

00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.489
intern I ever had. Coach TJ, he's now the director.

00:49:37.590 --> 00:49:39.349
So that's great. He's carrying the torch. But

00:49:39.349 --> 00:49:41.590
then each of the assistants, you know, they're

00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:44.909
now VPs at this place or head place or head trainers,

00:49:45.010 --> 00:49:47.250
and they're scattered all across the globe. So

00:49:47.250 --> 00:49:50.070
we had 160 interns come through that program.

00:49:50.329 --> 00:49:52.369
And it's been a really great community that we

00:49:52.369 --> 00:49:55.090
stay in touch with. So that I think was, you

00:49:55.090 --> 00:49:57.230
know, I consider that time kind of my master's.

00:49:57.690 --> 00:50:00.530
in sports performance, and then excited now that

00:50:00.530 --> 00:50:02.449
as I transitioned to Hawk and take those lessons

00:50:02.449 --> 00:50:05.130
I've learned, but to really crank it up another

00:50:05.130 --> 00:50:07.690
level, kind of in the research and analytics

00:50:07.690 --> 00:50:11.710
side of things. So that's obviously the collegiate

00:50:11.710 --> 00:50:15.829
sports man and woman. You know, the community

00:50:15.829 --> 00:50:17.469
that I'm most passionate about, obviously, is

00:50:17.469 --> 00:50:19.690
tactical athletes. George Ryan is our mutual

00:50:19.690 --> 00:50:21.809
friend that connected us, an amazing athlete

00:50:21.809 --> 00:50:24.090
himself, an amazing high performer in the law

00:50:24.090 --> 00:50:27.449
enforcement space. You have this lens on this

00:50:27.449 --> 00:50:30.090
young athlete, the student athlete for a long

00:50:30.090 --> 00:50:33.530
time. Walk me through your transition into working

00:50:33.530 --> 00:50:36.269
with some of these tactical athletes. And then

00:50:36.269 --> 00:50:38.449
what were some of the principles that you were

00:50:38.449 --> 00:50:40.929
applying to sports that you started also applying

00:50:40.929 --> 00:50:44.230
to the selection of these men and women? Yeah,

00:50:44.289 --> 00:50:46.030
I know you mentioned George and he's a great

00:50:46.030 --> 00:50:48.150
friend. And again, someone that, you know, I

00:50:48.150 --> 00:50:50.670
turn to just kind of, I think about him as one

00:50:50.670 --> 00:50:53.309
of the people in your network that you ever need

00:50:53.309 --> 00:50:55.920
to bounce an idea off of him. He'll listen and

00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.400
he gives you great feedback. And it's been very

00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:00.699
helpful to me. And it gives me insights not only

00:51:00.699 --> 00:51:03.679
from his perspective as an instructor, but someone

00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:06.119
who's actually done it for years. And I think

00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:07.860
that's what makes him unique. And when I listen

00:51:07.860 --> 00:51:11.559
to him, I was introduced to him via Jason Shea

00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:14.059
here in Boston and seeing that. And he was the

00:51:14.059 --> 00:51:15.699
one who really opened the door for me to work

00:51:15.699 --> 00:51:17.679
with law enforcement where I started looking

00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.360
around. I'm like, this is a really challenging

00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:22.230
problem. I mean, there is literally billions

00:51:22.230 --> 00:51:26.130
of dollars globally poured into sports. I don't

00:51:26.130 --> 00:51:28.329
know. Maybe you do about how much money is going

00:51:28.329 --> 00:51:31.050
into law enforcement research. I don't think

00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:34.809
it's billions. Yeah. Let's just go with a lot

00:51:34.809 --> 00:51:37.750
less. So it's certainly a lot less. But if you

00:51:37.750 --> 00:51:40.610
took it for what it is and firefighting and law

00:51:40.610 --> 00:51:43.429
enforcement and I call military as well, there's

00:51:43.429 --> 00:51:47.010
a set of really unique tasks that have to be

00:51:47.010 --> 00:51:49.739
performed a lot. And normally in sports, you

00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:52.800
get more stats, you win. The celebration is there.

00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:55.159
But what's weird is in the tactical community,

00:51:55.460 --> 00:51:58.280
that's just a given. Oh, and by the way, if you

00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:00.639
mess up in the hundreds and hundreds of good

00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:03.039
things you do once, it's now a national incident

00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:05.739
or it's an international incident. So I thought

00:52:05.739 --> 00:52:12.039
that a completely inverse reward system was very

00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:14.460
unique. And then the other thing is in sports.

00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:16.579
I have a lineman. He's going to go up against

00:52:16.579 --> 00:52:20.500
another lineman, a tennis player. There's a set

00:52:20.500 --> 00:52:26.079
fixed rules. There's a court size. So, you know,

00:52:26.179 --> 00:52:29.480
some of the SWAT guys, you walk in, like, you

00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:31.239
don't know who's in the building. You don't know

00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:33.300
if this person's on drugs. You don't know if

00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:35.900
it's an ambush. You don't know. And so now the

00:52:35.900 --> 00:52:37.619
constraints of the game change. So now we have

00:52:37.619 --> 00:52:40.860
two really, really unique problem sets that you

00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:43.559
have to think about it and probably more than

00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:47.500
athletics. I put a lot more focus in on the individual

00:52:47.500 --> 00:52:50.619
operator and we talk about their job. I think

00:52:50.619 --> 00:52:52.179
you'd mentioned some of the shifts, maybe they're

00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:56.360
12 hours, 24, 48 hours, but there's 168 hours

00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:59.519
in a week. And what I found was there was a lot

00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:04.099
of opportunity within that 168 to recover a little

00:53:04.099 --> 00:53:06.500
bit better, to reinforce a joint or mechanic

00:53:06.500 --> 00:53:09.179
when someone steps out of a vehicle or they hop

00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:12.059
a fence. How are they landing? Are they landing

00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:15.079
hard? Are they landing soft? Are they landing

00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:17.440
hard because they're weak or because their kit

00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:20.159
is different? I know one of the guys was explaining

00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:22.639
to me that some of the older veterans have a

00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:24.920
much better kit layout. Well, on the force plates,

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.900
I can see that some of the younger guys might

00:53:26.900 --> 00:53:29.760
load up 20 pounds on their right side for the

00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:31.199
way that they load their mags or the way that

00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:33.699
they carry a breaching tool. Well, maybe that

00:53:33.699 --> 00:53:35.360
needs to be switched or maybe that needs to be

00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:38.889
centralized. And so there's things. more so than

00:53:38.889 --> 00:53:41.929
ever in tactical it's about what what's the low

00:53:41.929 --> 00:53:45.030
-hanging fruit within the 168 not just the game

00:53:45.030 --> 00:53:47.869
i don't know if that makes sense um because we're

00:53:47.869 --> 00:53:49.489
always talking about conditioning and this and

00:53:49.489 --> 00:53:53.409
that for the game but you have no known game

00:53:53.409 --> 00:53:56.309
and in firefighting my my uh i mentioned to you

00:53:56.309 --> 00:53:59.150
my uncle is in cambridge square they might go

00:53:59.150 --> 00:54:02.469
out on six you know calls and not get out once

00:54:02.469 --> 00:54:05.369
and it's just a fire alarm Or it could be literally

00:54:05.369 --> 00:54:07.550
the most important thing in their career. And

00:54:07.550 --> 00:54:10.670
so that kind of impending doom, I don't know

00:54:10.670 --> 00:54:12.809
if it's doom or excitement, but that just kind

00:54:12.809 --> 00:54:16.650
of anticipation, I think that weighs differently

00:54:16.650 --> 00:54:18.289
than the individual's like, oh, I have five games

00:54:18.289 --> 00:54:20.050
this week. And I know here's the scouting report.

00:54:20.309 --> 00:54:24.469
There's none of that. And in operations and firefighting,

00:54:24.489 --> 00:54:28.610
you have specific tasks that you're going to

00:54:28.610 --> 00:54:31.409
have to do so we can practice that. If you're

00:54:31.409 --> 00:54:33.409
not strong enough to pick up the hose, we can

00:54:33.409 --> 00:54:36.429
make you stronger. And I say, or, because I don't

00:54:36.429 --> 00:54:37.929
need you to be a power lifter, but I need you

00:54:37.929 --> 00:54:40.110
to be strong enough that that isn't a major struggle.

00:54:40.389 --> 00:54:43.289
And so we can look at different contexts of movements

00:54:43.289 --> 00:54:46.889
of skill and of tactics and then reinforcing

00:54:46.889 --> 00:54:49.949
it. And I don't have an answer yet. Cause again,

00:54:50.010 --> 00:54:52.210
it's something that's ever evolving, but I do

00:54:52.210 --> 00:54:55.489
think that in the community, you have the early

00:54:55.489 --> 00:54:58.449
fit individual. And then there's a weird time

00:54:58.449 --> 00:55:01.460
of seasoned experience, but. Maybe they have

00:55:01.460 --> 00:55:03.860
a wife. Maybe they don't. Maybe they got divorced.

00:55:04.039 --> 00:55:05.539
Maybe they have kids. You have kind of these

00:55:05.539 --> 00:55:08.179
other factors that weren't present at the beginning

00:55:08.179 --> 00:55:12.360
of the career. And then on the backside, that

00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:14.960
older individual that's now broken down. And

00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:16.760
so they can't be, their mind might be sharp.

00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:19.000
They might be the best at leadership and decision

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:22.159
-making, but physiologically, they can't do the

00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.519
bare minimum things that need to be done. So

00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:26.679
then they get pulled off the truck. And that

00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:29.360
I think also is really devastating for someone

00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:32.460
who identifies with their group to be physically

00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:35.300
told they can't be on the truck is really hard.

00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:37.079
And so that kind of goes into our conversation

00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.059
earlier. If I'm a leadership position, how am

00:55:40.059 --> 00:55:42.630
I managing that? Well, it's interesting when

00:55:42.630 --> 00:55:45.010
you said about the contrast between sports and

00:55:45.010 --> 00:55:48.250
the tactical community with after the radio goes

00:55:48.250 --> 00:55:50.130
off, whether it's a firefighter or law enforcement.

00:55:50.190 --> 00:55:54.170
I always remember this, you know, talking about

00:55:54.170 --> 00:55:57.349
dispatchers. So you have them in a call center.

00:55:57.469 --> 00:55:59.090
They're taking these calls. Someone's actually

00:55:59.090 --> 00:56:02.190
dying on the end of the phone, but they don't

00:56:02.190 --> 00:56:04.050
get to do any physical release. So you think

00:56:04.050 --> 00:56:13.349
about a stress response back in, you know. So

00:56:13.349 --> 00:56:15.610
the dispatchers have that all the time. The fire

00:56:15.610 --> 00:56:17.469
and police, we have it some of the time. So the

00:56:17.469 --> 00:56:19.170
tones go off. We don't know if we're going to

00:56:19.170 --> 00:56:21.289
be climbing to the top of Grenfell Tower in London.

00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:23.840
Or if it's a fire alarm, you get canceled halfway

00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:25.639
there, you turn your lights off, turn around.

00:56:25.940 --> 00:56:28.199
So you've had this adrenal response, especially

00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:30.980
if it comes in something very acute, but another

00:56:30.980 --> 00:56:33.800
unit takes it in the end. So you're ready for

00:56:33.800 --> 00:56:35.900
a cardiac arrest. You're ready to cut a family

00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:38.860
out of a car. And then you don't. So, you know,

00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.739
the unknowns in this profession, I think the

00:56:41.739 --> 00:56:44.360
only sport that I think physically that even

00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:46.639
come close to mimicking what we do is probably

00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:49.699
MMA. because of the different you know stresses

00:56:49.699 --> 00:56:51.800
and angles and the way you're falling and all

00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:54.460
these things everything else has some sort of

00:56:54.460 --> 00:56:57.119
predictability to it even though there are variables

00:56:57.119 --> 00:56:59.619
in a tennis game or football you still you're

00:56:59.619 --> 00:57:01.559
going to be running one direction you know someone's

00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:03.300
coming at you you know going to hit you a certain

00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:04.880
way hopefully not in the head and they're not

00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:08.699
going to kick your feet away or but in in a fire

00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:11.300
I mean, who knows what's going to happen in there?

00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:12.800
Is the fall going to give way? Is the ceiling

00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:14.519
going to land on your head? You know, are the

00:57:14.519 --> 00:57:17.059
stairs going to fall through? So there are all

00:57:17.059 --> 00:57:19.460
these different variables, which makes, you know,

00:57:19.460 --> 00:57:22.699
as you said, making the base of a firefighter

00:57:22.699 --> 00:57:25.219
or a police officer as strong as possible imperative

00:57:25.219 --> 00:57:28.940
because we don't know really what exactly we're

00:57:28.940 --> 00:57:33.360
going to be exposed to. So the more of a foundation

00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:35.920
you can build in these responders, the higher

00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.920
chance there is of surviving whatever they go

00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.769
into. Yeah, and I would even say with an MMA,

00:57:41.030 --> 00:57:43.789
if we wanted to make it closer, you're going

00:57:43.789 --> 00:57:46.750
to fight someone within the next year. We're

00:57:46.750 --> 00:57:47.989
going to give you, I don't know, what was your

00:57:47.989 --> 00:57:51.090
average call time on the truck? It would depend,

00:57:51.210 --> 00:57:52.889
but usually I think we were there within about

00:57:52.889 --> 00:57:55.989
three or so minutes. So you're going to have

00:57:55.989 --> 00:57:58.550
a fight this year at some point. you're going

00:57:58.550 --> 00:58:00.650
to get a phone call. And in three minutes, you're

00:58:00.650 --> 00:58:02.369
going to have to go into the ring. We're not

00:58:02.369 --> 00:58:03.809
going to tell you who you're going to fight.

00:58:03.909 --> 00:58:06.510
So you have no scout and they might have a weapon,

00:58:06.590 --> 00:58:08.130
but we're not going to tell you till you get

00:58:08.130 --> 00:58:10.630
there. And they could also be on a lot of drugs

00:58:10.630 --> 00:58:12.730
and they could also have their friends jump in

00:58:12.730 --> 00:58:15.849
at any time. Good luck with that. And that's

00:58:15.849 --> 00:58:17.489
what the thing is that it's just, and by the

00:58:17.489 --> 00:58:19.789
way, if you win, there's going to be no fans.

00:58:20.969 --> 00:58:22.349
Nobody's going to reward you. You're not going

00:58:22.349 --> 00:58:25.909
to have a parade, but if you don't, again, it's

00:58:25.909 --> 00:58:28.320
a, it's a national. crisis. It's an international

00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:30.860
crisis. And that's just the weight and gravity.

00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:32.679
And I know George, I listened to him on this

00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:35.119
podcast talks about it, the amount of training,

00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:37.880
the amount of review and nobody's perfect. Like,

00:58:37.900 --> 00:58:39.659
and I think that's really hard to expect any

00:58:39.659 --> 00:58:42.780
group or population to be perfect. I think you

00:58:42.780 --> 00:58:46.079
can have the resources and, and systems in place

00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:48.159
to handle things when they need to be handled

00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:50.780
and try to prevent them in the future. But if

00:58:50.780 --> 00:58:53.570
anybody ever wants to, I mean, go. go look and

00:58:53.570 --> 00:58:55.969
see what some of our first responders are doing

00:58:55.969 --> 00:58:57.909
you know anywhere in the globe and it's just

00:58:57.909 --> 00:59:00.650
sometimes it's a war zone you know and it's just

00:59:00.650 --> 00:59:03.369
tough and they have families and again there's

00:59:03.369 --> 00:59:05.369
good apples and there's bad apples but for the

00:59:05.369 --> 00:59:07.530
majority of the time you know you pick up the

00:59:07.530 --> 00:59:10.389
phone and you call 9 -1 -1 you you want someone

00:59:10.389 --> 00:59:12.130
who's there who's there to call to serve and

00:59:12.130 --> 00:59:14.030
and i think that's what we need to focus on and

00:59:14.030 --> 00:59:16.349
the more you support and nurture that the better

00:59:16.349 --> 00:59:18.769
it is and so it's certainly certainly a tough

00:59:18.769 --> 00:59:21.170
thing for anybody and just the parallelism but

00:59:21.170 --> 00:59:25.010
that's also why experience is so valuable. To

00:59:25.010 --> 00:59:28.170
get someone 10 years in football, that's a coveted

00:59:28.170 --> 00:59:31.429
asset. Someone who's got 10, 15 years on the

00:59:31.429 --> 00:59:34.730
force, every year that you can make them stay

00:59:34.730 --> 00:59:36.889
a little bit longer, mentor a little bit more,

00:59:37.090 --> 00:59:39.289
use their institutional knowledge in the craft,

00:59:39.469 --> 00:59:44.469
in the field and profession, that's like gold

00:59:44.469 --> 00:59:46.849
for any department. And that's where I know we've

00:59:46.849 --> 00:59:50.980
talked about prevention, getting ahead of things,

00:59:51.139 --> 00:59:54.219
don't be reactive. That can be really hard for

00:59:54.219 --> 00:59:56.739
the people that are counting money to say, well,

00:59:56.760 --> 00:59:58.519
why do we need to do this extra training? What's

00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:00.920
our ROI on this? And it's tough because that

01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:03.599
ROI may not manifest until 10 years from now

01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:05.880
when, oh, remember that class we took on wellness?

01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:08.280
Remember that class we took on stress response?

01:00:08.659 --> 01:00:11.460
So I think it's a very unique challenge and something

01:00:11.460 --> 01:00:13.800
that I'm excited to continue to work on as we

01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:16.829
go forward. Well, speaking of ROI, that's a good

01:00:16.829 --> 01:00:19.050
tangent for what I wanted to put to you. Again,

01:00:19.130 --> 01:00:21.809
you have this amazing contrast of collegiate

01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:26.050
sports and the tactical athlete. In many professions,

01:00:26.130 --> 01:00:28.190
I would argue probably fire service is the worst.

01:00:28.409 --> 01:00:30.530
The Northeast tends to do it a little bit better,

01:00:30.570 --> 01:00:33.769
but the rest of the country, the average work

01:00:33.769 --> 01:00:36.969
week is going to be a 24 -48, which is a 56 -hour

01:00:36.969 --> 01:00:39.429
work week. So every third day, these men and

01:00:39.429 --> 01:00:42.670
women are awake all night, every three days for

01:00:42.670 --> 01:00:45.480
their entire career. One of the things that I've

01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:47.340
been trying to get people to understand is the

01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:50.900
negative acute and chronic impact of sleep deprivation

01:00:50.900 --> 01:00:53.500
on not only mental health, but physical health,

01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:56.320
cancer, obesity, and even musculoskeletal injury.

01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:00.219
But the understanding that if we gave these responders

01:01:00.219 --> 01:01:03.639
more time to recover from being awake when we

01:01:03.639 --> 01:01:06.480
all sleep in our beds. the ROI would actually

01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:08.780
be huge on the back end because we wouldn't be

01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:10.539
breaking them. We wouldn't be paying out overtime

01:01:10.539 --> 01:01:12.800
and workman's comp claims and, you know, all

01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:17.599
these wrongful death or malpractice suits, all

01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:19.519
these things that these companies or these, excuse

01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:22.719
me, cities and counties pay. That investment

01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:24.880
at the front would save money, you know, down

01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:28.360
the back end. What has been your... That's the

01:01:28.360 --> 01:01:30.480
best way of putting this. What is the value of

01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:32.860
sleep in the collegiate athlete? And how can

01:01:32.860 --> 01:01:36.820
we apply that knowledge of performance into the

01:01:36.820 --> 01:01:38.840
tactical space so that there's an understanding

01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:42.159
of the value of sleep rather than it being viewed

01:01:42.159 --> 01:01:47.380
as a weakness? Sure. So I'll put a disclaimer

01:01:47.380 --> 01:01:49.579
that when I answer these, I really come from

01:01:49.579 --> 01:01:53.840
the Matthew Walker, Peter Attia, kind of that

01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:58.090
kind of tribe. where we know it's really important.

01:01:58.250 --> 01:02:00.110
We all agree. And I would even say probably sleep,

01:02:00.190 --> 01:02:02.210
you know, depending on how you want to argue

01:02:02.210 --> 01:02:04.869
one, two on nutrition and then physical activity

01:02:04.869 --> 01:02:08.670
training being, you know, most impactful to longevity

01:02:08.670 --> 01:02:11.250
and performance of life. Sleep's probably a solid

01:02:11.250 --> 01:02:16.630
three between those two. Because again, very

01:02:16.630 --> 01:02:18.989
few things, you know, you don't eat for days

01:02:18.989 --> 01:02:21.460
or you have enough water, you can fast. But for

01:02:21.460 --> 01:02:23.579
sleep, if you don't like, there's a reason why

01:02:23.579 --> 01:02:26.179
we have to do it. And we're learning just so

01:02:26.179 --> 01:02:29.559
much about sleep isn't eight hours. It isn't

01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:32.460
10 hours. There are actual biological things

01:02:32.460 --> 01:02:35.940
that are occurring that on a cellular level matter

01:02:35.940 --> 01:02:39.320
on a hormonal level matter in athletics. We know

01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:42.480
it matters, but yet coaches still 6 a .m. Build

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:46.420
character and fine. You can say that. And sometimes

01:02:46.420 --> 01:02:48.260
from scheduling constraints, I know at Yale.

01:02:49.099 --> 01:02:51.079
None of our professors were giving kids days

01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:53.480
off. So some started at eight, some started at

01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:55.159
three. So guess what? At 6 a .m., nobody has

01:02:55.159 --> 01:03:00.000
classes. And we know that there's a greater propensity

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:01.860
for risk there. So you have to manage things

01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:03.920
a little bit differently. And maybe you can't

01:03:03.920 --> 01:03:06.860
go as intense. If you do choose to go intense,

01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:09.360
then you need to expect that there's going to

01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:12.280
be a down regulation in performance or even greater

01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:15.980
risk for acute failures. But in the tactical

01:03:15.980 --> 01:03:18.159
space, I don't know if we're ever going to get

01:03:18.159 --> 01:03:21.289
rid of shifts. So I think that's administrative

01:03:21.289 --> 01:03:24.750
independent of the act of firefighting. That's

01:03:24.750 --> 01:03:28.489
a political union kind of large scale change

01:03:28.489 --> 01:03:31.909
that is years, if not decades, if never going

01:03:31.909 --> 01:03:34.630
to change. But what we can say is in the time

01:03:34.630 --> 01:03:37.130
that you have come up with a strategy to have

01:03:37.130 --> 01:03:39.610
good sleep hygiene, we used to do things about

01:03:39.610 --> 01:03:41.789
shutting off the blue screen and especially now.

01:03:41.909 --> 01:03:44.289
And again, I don't. I don't have any affiliation

01:03:44.289 --> 01:03:46.690
with them, but Aura, I've used them extensively.

01:03:46.750 --> 01:03:49.269
And just the insight of how much does a glass

01:03:49.269 --> 01:03:51.829
of alcohol when you're stressed out, not only

01:03:51.829 --> 01:03:54.329
does it maybe not affect the situation, but then

01:03:54.329 --> 01:03:57.929
damages your sleep and certain foods and even

01:03:57.929 --> 01:03:59.849
just some of the meditative things. I'm not a

01:03:59.849 --> 01:04:02.710
big meditation guy. However, you put that ring

01:04:02.710 --> 01:04:04.909
on and you can actually see your heart rate come

01:04:04.909 --> 01:04:07.530
down. You can see your HRV change. So you can

01:04:07.530 --> 01:04:10.030
actually make a difference. And I think everyone

01:04:10.030 --> 01:04:15.260
is aware. in the classical Hans Selye's gas principle

01:04:15.260 --> 01:04:18.539
about the stimulus, the alarm, and then the super

01:04:18.539 --> 01:04:20.539
compensation. So you have the kind of the training,

01:04:20.699 --> 01:04:23.599
the blip, and then the recovery. More so than

01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:26.739
ever, we know that sleep isn't a passive thing.

01:04:26.860 --> 01:04:29.059
It's actually active part of recovery. And so

01:04:29.059 --> 01:04:31.480
thinking about that as a slingshot or a trampoline

01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:34.300
to come out of your stressful environments. And

01:04:34.300 --> 01:04:36.719
so I would challenge anybody listening here,

01:04:36.900 --> 01:04:40.360
write down what your sleep program is, or we

01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:42.980
call it sleep hygiene in college, and then see

01:04:42.980 --> 01:04:44.960
what you can tweak. Do you know how good your

01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:47.300
sleep is? Maybe you only get seven hours of sleep,

01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:49.699
but can we make it 10 times better? The answer

01:04:49.699 --> 01:04:51.760
is yeah. You can look at Thorne. They've got

01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:54.699
some great supplements. Momentous has great supplements

01:04:54.699 --> 01:04:57.599
for sleep, but really treating sleep almost as

01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:00.230
a training. almost as like you're going out and

01:05:00.230 --> 01:05:02.010
you're doing a training on the truck or you're

01:05:02.010 --> 01:05:05.929
going to respond to an incident. Treat your sleep

01:05:05.929 --> 01:05:08.269
like that and get it as optimized. And if anybody

01:05:08.269 --> 01:05:11.190
lives near a city, most people are shocked to

01:05:11.190 --> 01:05:14.730
know most universities, LA, Yale, coast to coast,

01:05:14.809 --> 01:05:17.809
people are always looking for sleep study patients

01:05:17.809 --> 01:05:20.730
for their research. Probably one of the best

01:05:20.730 --> 01:05:22.849
things you could do is invest in one of those.

01:05:23.309 --> 01:05:25.269
be a participant, get your readouts and really

01:05:25.269 --> 01:05:28.230
get a true breakdown. And most of the time, they

01:05:28.230 --> 01:05:30.329
don't even charge you. In some instances, they

01:05:30.329 --> 01:05:32.909
might pay you to be part of the study. But I

01:05:32.909 --> 01:05:35.550
think sleep is probably the new frontier for

01:05:35.550 --> 01:05:37.989
being optimized to make an immediate impact,

01:05:38.130 --> 01:05:40.590
just like we've seen with training and nutrition

01:05:40.590 --> 01:05:43.050
throughout the last couple of decades. See, and

01:05:43.050 --> 01:05:44.550
I agree with you completely on the ownership

01:05:44.550 --> 01:05:48.409
with the sleep hygiene. The issue I have is That's

01:05:48.409 --> 01:05:50.550
always the thing. It's always on the responders.

01:05:50.690 --> 01:05:54.050
My mission is to just hold the mirror up to people

01:05:54.050 --> 01:05:56.250
that are working 40 hours a week, go home to

01:05:56.250 --> 01:05:57.750
their bed every night, that are making decisions

01:05:57.750 --> 01:06:01.550
for responders to work 50, 60, 70, 80 hours a

01:06:01.550 --> 01:06:04.389
week. And, you know, those are the ones that

01:06:04.389 --> 01:06:06.250
are waking up at three in the morning, running

01:06:06.250 --> 01:06:08.150
into a burning building or trying to figure out

01:06:08.150 --> 01:06:10.429
medical calculations on a three -year -old cardiac

01:06:10.429 --> 01:06:13.369
arrest. So it's the fact that we've devolved

01:06:13.369 --> 01:06:16.769
to where we are now. It shouldn't. be years it

01:06:16.769 --> 01:06:19.409
shouldn't be in you know a mountain to climb

01:06:19.409 --> 01:06:22.210
as i point out you know we we had chimneys excuse

01:06:22.210 --> 01:06:23.869
me we had children going up chimneys and working

01:06:23.869 --> 01:06:25.969
in factories in the victorian times so someone

01:06:25.969 --> 01:06:27.750
said what the fuck are we doing this is ridiculous

01:06:27.750 --> 01:06:30.010
we're killing these children this is where we

01:06:30.010 --> 01:06:32.030
are in the first responder community like the

01:06:32.030 --> 01:06:34.829
department that protects around me the the county

01:06:34.829 --> 01:06:37.750
they work 56 hour weeks but then they're short

01:06:37.750 --> 01:06:39.849
staffed so they tell these men and women you

01:06:39.849 --> 01:06:41.789
can't go home today you've got to work another

01:06:41.789 --> 01:06:46.460
24 that's 80 hours a week So not sleeping, I

01:06:46.460 --> 01:06:48.340
think that works out as four of those seven days.

01:06:48.579 --> 01:06:50.820
And now with the suicides you had through the

01:06:50.820 --> 01:06:53.000
roof, you know, cancers, all these different

01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:56.340
things. So, you know, I'm hoping that the people

01:06:56.340 --> 01:06:59.699
that make the decisions can understand that without

01:06:59.699 --> 01:07:03.420
sleep, it affects negatively everything from

01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:05.900
mental health, physical health, injuries, the

01:07:05.900 --> 01:07:08.679
whole gamut. And if you can look yourself in

01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:11.849
the mirror and go home after 40 hours. telling

01:07:11.849 --> 01:07:14.530
these people that they can't go home for 80 hours,

01:07:14.730 --> 01:07:17.449
then, you know, if that doesn't make people angry,

01:07:17.570 --> 01:07:21.150
I don't know what does. Yeah, my hope is that

01:07:21.150 --> 01:07:23.949
we're collecting so much data now on the commercial

01:07:23.949 --> 01:07:27.210
side and in research. Sleep research 10 years

01:07:27.210 --> 01:07:29.750
ago was not what it is today. So my hope and

01:07:29.750 --> 01:07:32.590
what I would encourage first responders is get

01:07:32.590 --> 01:07:35.940
involved. Get involved with these studies because

01:07:35.940 --> 01:07:39.659
data is power. It influences politics. It influences

01:07:39.659 --> 01:07:42.340
policies. But if we don't participate, that's

01:07:42.340 --> 01:07:44.500
tough. And I know, you know, you're out in California

01:07:44.500 --> 01:07:47.099
and we've talked, but we just have a customer

01:07:47.099 --> 01:07:49.579
came online. Santa Ana College has a tremendous

01:07:49.579 --> 01:07:51.400
firefighting program and they're going to have

01:07:51.400 --> 01:07:53.820
force plates and start measuring kinematics and

01:07:53.820 --> 01:07:55.900
how they look in gear, how they don't. And that's

01:07:55.900 --> 01:07:57.699
a tremendous thing. And they're looking for participants.

01:07:58.139 --> 01:08:00.820
If you're listening, just reach out and start

01:08:00.820 --> 01:08:03.619
to collect it. And then on the flip side. What's

01:08:03.619 --> 01:08:07.300
very hard is that especially here today, we're

01:08:07.300 --> 01:08:10.519
a very insta world. Sleep is important, but you

01:08:10.519 --> 01:08:12.179
know what? I can tell you right now, if I told

01:08:12.179 --> 01:08:14.099
you to stay up through the night, you can do

01:08:14.099 --> 01:08:17.819
it. But unfortunately, you do that again, you

01:08:17.819 --> 01:08:21.140
do that again. That's a cultural thing or that's

01:08:21.140 --> 01:08:25.439
an accepted practice. The impact, when the down

01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:27.819
regulation and when the trouble starts, it's

01:08:27.819 --> 01:08:30.779
too late. And so we have to let people know that

01:08:30.779 --> 01:08:32.880
just because smoking cigarettes is another example.

01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:35.560
If you smoke a cigarette, more likely than not,

01:08:35.680 --> 01:08:37.920
you will not die on that first time. And I think,

01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:42.020
unfortunately, we can't see sleep. I can see

01:08:42.020 --> 01:08:44.319
you have a broken arm. I could see someone fell

01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:46.779
off a ladder. So when we can kinesthetically

01:08:46.779 --> 01:08:50.119
feel it, touch it, or we can see it. It's there.

01:08:50.180 --> 01:08:52.060
And that's why mental illness is really struggled.

01:08:52.460 --> 01:08:55.119
Is my mind playing tricks on me? Am I really

01:08:55.119 --> 01:08:57.420
tired? No. Mental toughness, you push through.

01:08:57.520 --> 01:08:59.520
And I think everybody has a different amount

01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:02.920
they need to be optimal. But when you have policies

01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:06.199
that are setting you up to fail, that's a problem.

01:09:06.500 --> 01:09:08.279
But in the meantime, until they get changed,

01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:10.960
the best advice I can give is that there are

01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:14.380
sleep hygiene things you can do to make the best

01:09:14.380 --> 01:09:16.300
of it. But if you're an administrator out there

01:09:16.300 --> 01:09:20.039
listening and you said 40 hours, yeah. Just run

01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:22.220
the shifts with us. The people that make the

01:09:22.220 --> 01:09:24.640
policies need to understand because like you

01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:27.699
said, it's not that you're packing groceries.

01:09:28.260 --> 01:09:30.180
It's you're going to have to go calculate how

01:09:30.180 --> 01:09:33.000
much medicine someone needs or perform a very

01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:37.180
life -saving, critical intervention. I don't

01:09:37.180 --> 01:09:39.560
really want that person being sleepy or cloudy

01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:41.920
from their mind, but yet it happens time and

01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:44.420
time again. So that's kind of my take on that

01:09:44.420 --> 01:09:46.119
stuff, but it's certainly an area that needs

01:09:46.119 --> 01:09:48.390
to get better. And I hope it does. sooner rather

01:09:48.390 --> 01:09:50.850
than later. Well, again, thank you for your perspective.

01:09:50.890 --> 01:09:52.670
The more of these voices that we have, hopefully

01:09:52.670 --> 01:09:55.550
the more we'll get to that critical point where

01:09:55.550 --> 01:09:58.369
there will be a change. I want to get to your

01:09:58.369 --> 01:10:01.170
own. personal kind of health journey in a second

01:10:01.170 --> 01:10:04.109
but just before we do you transition from yale

01:10:04.109 --> 01:10:06.350
to hawking dynamics talk to me about the company

01:10:06.350 --> 01:10:08.329
what your offer and you've talked about santa

01:10:08.329 --> 01:10:10.470
ana i'm in the west coast now but when i was

01:10:10.470 --> 01:10:12.909
at anaheim fire that was uh you know one of the

01:10:12.909 --> 01:10:15.590
colleges that we'd go to so you know what what

01:10:15.590 --> 01:10:18.050
work you're doing um in the tactical world with

01:10:18.050 --> 01:10:22.069
your company now yeah so hawking dynamics is

01:10:22.069 --> 01:10:25.289
a company based out of Portland, Maine. But we're

01:10:25.289 --> 01:10:27.869
in 36, I think even more now countries and we

01:10:27.869 --> 01:10:29.869
make force plates. And so force plates for anyone

01:10:29.869 --> 01:10:32.090
who doesn't know, they're basically this device

01:10:32.090 --> 01:10:33.890
that you stand on. They've been around forever,

01:10:34.069 --> 01:10:37.310
but predominantly similar to how computers used

01:10:37.310 --> 01:10:39.470
to be the size of a room. And it was a whole

01:10:39.470 --> 01:10:41.630
floor of a building. Force plates were these

01:10:41.630 --> 01:10:44.909
big research labs with a lot of wires. Our founder

01:10:44.909 --> 01:10:47.170
created a way to be able to make that technology

01:10:47.170 --> 01:10:49.529
that has decades of research into a portable,

01:10:49.649 --> 01:10:54.029
meaningful 60 pound travel case. And so research

01:10:54.029 --> 01:10:56.829
grade data, but now you can go anywhere in the

01:10:56.829 --> 01:10:59.489
world. You can hook up to your hotspot on your

01:10:59.489 --> 01:11:02.170
phone. You can do it in a lab. You can take it

01:11:02.170 --> 01:11:05.149
on the road with a game. And so that's the hardware.

01:11:05.489 --> 01:11:08.050
Haken Dynamics though, as a company is really

01:11:08.050 --> 01:11:11.550
a brand. And so we take that responsibility very

01:11:11.550 --> 01:11:14.250
seriously as kind of leading the generation of

01:11:14.250 --> 01:11:16.890
sports performance. A lot of tech companies,

01:11:17.109 --> 01:11:19.890
oh, it's this new fangled thing. Try this, try

01:11:19.890 --> 01:11:22.659
that. Is it validated? I mean, just even a simple

01:11:22.659 --> 01:11:24.859
question, is your technology validated against

01:11:24.859 --> 01:11:27.199
known gold standards? And companies will try

01:11:27.199 --> 01:11:30.520
to push more and more and more. Ben, our CEO,

01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:33.399
has done an incredible job of staying laser focused

01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:36.800
on being the absolute authority when it comes

01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:40.000
to force measurement using the plates. And so

01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:43.260
we then take that and our staff, myself, I was

01:11:43.260 --> 01:11:46.260
at Yale. I used the plates. I used it very well

01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:49.000
for what I did. Well, we also have Peter Mundy,

01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:50.939
who's a world -renowned researcher and biomechanist

01:11:50.939 --> 01:11:52.939
out of England. We also have James Heinisch,

01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:56.239
who's down in Australia. And so he's able to

01:11:56.239 --> 01:11:59.420
go in and be able to really make sure that when

01:11:59.420 --> 01:12:01.340
people are talking to someone in our company,

01:12:01.479 --> 01:12:03.880
we were practitioners. So we like to think that

01:12:03.880 --> 01:12:05.979
we're the practitioner's plate. And it can be

01:12:05.979 --> 01:12:08.319
really intimidating to people. very quickly.

01:12:08.699 --> 01:12:10.579
But when you set up with your account, and so

01:12:10.579 --> 01:12:12.479
like I mentioned to you earlier, I deal with

01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:14.560
PT clinics, I deal with fire departments. So

01:12:14.560 --> 01:12:17.119
I'll speak to Santa Ana, you know, from 10 to

01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:20.180
11 on Zoom, like we're doing now. And then I'll

01:12:20.180 --> 01:12:22.979
go work with someone here in New York and then

01:12:22.979 --> 01:12:24.779
give a presentation to someone down in North

01:12:24.779 --> 01:12:28.420
Carolina. And so as we've continued to grow across

01:12:28.420 --> 01:12:31.279
the globe, we're really trying to help practitioners

01:12:31.279 --> 01:12:34.819
use the historical importance of force plates

01:12:34.819 --> 01:12:37.319
in their day -to -day practice. but doing it

01:12:37.319 --> 01:12:39.479
in a meaningful way. Sometimes force plates,

01:12:39.579 --> 01:12:41.880
people will say, and again, there's a lot of

01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:44.239
people in our space and they'll say, well, you

01:12:44.239 --> 01:12:45.779
can test this and measure this and measure that.

01:12:45.859 --> 01:12:48.039
If I went to the firehouse and I said, hey, we're

01:12:48.039 --> 01:12:49.199
going to have training today for an hour. And

01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:51.760
I just did testing for an hour. That's not going

01:12:51.760 --> 01:12:54.640
to go over very well. What we talk about is give

01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:56.319
us eight minutes. So if you have a one hour training,

01:12:56.439 --> 01:12:58.960
give us eight minutes. And what can we see both

01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.579
in your output? So how high you jump, how much

01:13:01.579 --> 01:13:03.859
force you can produce, and then your strategy,

01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:06.579
which is Yeah, you jumped really high, but you

01:13:06.579 --> 01:13:08.680
landed like a sack of potatoes. If you continue

01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:11.279
to do that, that's probably not conducive to

01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:13.279
longevity. And so we break things into either

01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:17.000
output or strategy and then develop a plan. So

01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.239
after those eight minutes, and when I was at

01:13:19.239 --> 01:13:21.899
Yale, we would do that 45 individuals, we would

01:13:21.899 --> 01:13:24.420
then select the workout for the day. And where

01:13:24.420 --> 01:13:26.920
that becomes incredibly powerful is you essentially

01:13:26.920 --> 01:13:30.619
get a two week radar system of understanding

01:13:30.619 --> 01:13:33.279
poor strategies. which is really what takes you

01:13:33.279 --> 01:13:34.720
out of the game or takes you out of the fight.

01:13:35.119 --> 01:13:38.399
But we can also use it to help guide our developmental

01:13:38.399 --> 01:13:41.119
program. So say I think about San Jose volleyball

01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:43.720
is a great example. The strength coach and the

01:13:43.720 --> 01:13:46.380
sport coach and the athletic trainer, all three

01:13:46.380 --> 01:13:48.180
of them had different dashboards. So they didn't

01:13:48.180 --> 01:13:50.640
look at everything. They looked at their dashboard

01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:53.300
to make better choices and better decisions for

01:13:53.300 --> 01:13:55.920
the ladies. And they went on to have 20 wins

01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:58.609
this past season. It's phenomenal. And that's

01:13:58.609 --> 01:14:00.770
how it's supposed to work. So that's really Hawken

01:14:00.770 --> 01:14:03.329
Dynamics. And we've done a lot of research. We're

01:14:03.329 --> 01:14:05.350
continuing to push forward. But then also little

01:14:05.350 --> 01:14:08.069
things of what's the customer experience like?

01:14:08.149 --> 01:14:11.050
My title of chief innovation officer, it's a

01:14:11.050 --> 01:14:12.989
long -winded way of saying, make sure that when

01:14:12.989 --> 01:14:15.430
we build things, they don't suck. So that's the

01:14:15.430 --> 01:14:18.930
report. That's the usability. And we are very

01:14:18.930 --> 01:14:21.350
good at what we do. But if you listen to some

01:14:21.350 --> 01:14:23.970
of our staff meetings and some of our developmental

01:14:23.970 --> 01:14:26.170
meetings, we're probably our harshest critics.

01:14:26.920 --> 01:14:29.359
Because it can't be good and it can't be perfect

01:14:29.359 --> 01:14:31.739
once in a while. Trying to make something perfect

01:14:31.739 --> 01:14:34.600
all the time is really, really challenging, but

01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:36.920
a responsibility that we take really seriously.

01:14:37.140 --> 01:14:39.520
And it's very exciting to see that come to fruition

01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.140
when someone who's never made it through a season

01:14:42.140 --> 01:14:45.560
has their first successful season. When you have

01:14:45.560 --> 01:14:47.720
an operator who has to go back in after an ACL

01:14:47.720 --> 01:14:50.159
and they're not sure if they're good to go to

01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:52.260
say, you need to have confidence. You've done

01:14:52.260 --> 01:14:54.479
your rehab. You've done your training. You're

01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:56.829
actually better than what you were before. you

01:14:56.829 --> 01:14:59.050
know, go forth with confidence. And I think that's

01:14:59.050 --> 01:15:03.210
really where data makes a big impact of giving

01:15:03.210 --> 01:15:07.569
you an empirical answer to now psychologically

01:15:07.569 --> 01:15:09.550
be ready. Cause we know that if you're weak,

01:15:09.649 --> 01:15:11.170
if I say you're weak, you don't know what you're

01:15:11.170 --> 01:15:12.829
doing. If I just create a negative culture and

01:15:12.829 --> 01:15:16.329
mindset, you can downgrade response time. You

01:15:16.329 --> 01:15:18.829
can downgrade force production, but if you have

01:15:18.829 --> 01:15:21.180
confidence. Just again, that's a little bit of

01:15:21.180 --> 01:15:23.500
the placebo effect as well as that belief. But

01:15:23.500 --> 01:15:25.720
then having not just placebo, but bought in,

01:15:25.739 --> 01:15:28.579
I am faster, stronger, or I'm moving better.

01:15:28.819 --> 01:15:32.680
That really does impact outputs that we see both

01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:34.739
in the tactical space and in the sporting space.

01:15:35.479 --> 01:15:37.979
Well, we talked the other day, and one thing

01:15:37.979 --> 01:15:40.649
I haven't kind of got to yet. You mentioned about

01:15:40.649 --> 01:15:44.350
being able to screen and not in an exclusionary

01:15:44.350 --> 01:15:47.149
way, but to be able to, as you said before, not

01:15:47.149 --> 01:15:49.810
find the winners, but find the people that maybe

01:15:49.810 --> 01:15:51.909
are more likely to get hurt, maybe need to develop

01:15:51.909 --> 01:15:54.390
a little bit more strength and mobility. What

01:15:54.390 --> 01:15:56.729
are some of the tools that you bring assessing

01:15:56.729 --> 01:15:59.970
people that are trying to get into a first responder

01:15:59.970 --> 01:16:01.770
or military team? And then what are some of the

01:16:01.770 --> 01:16:03.949
tools you bring to people already in there to

01:16:03.949 --> 01:16:06.449
try and foster longevity in that operator or

01:16:06.449 --> 01:16:09.810
that responder? Regardless of whatever group,

01:16:09.989 --> 01:16:12.630
usually there's a population that is doing well.

01:16:13.210 --> 01:16:16.329
George will mention, so say LA SWAT, good population

01:16:16.329 --> 01:16:18.369
to look at. And I'm sure if you talk to them,

01:16:18.430 --> 01:16:20.189
they're humble that they'll say, you know, we

01:16:20.189 --> 01:16:22.130
got to do better. This is our ethos. But those

01:16:22.130 --> 01:16:24.989
from an individual standpoint of looking at that

01:16:24.989 --> 01:16:27.430
collection or that cohort as a, what we would

01:16:27.430 --> 01:16:30.090
call a prototyping group, we want to look at

01:16:30.090 --> 01:16:32.130
what are the characteristics? How do they jump?

01:16:32.189 --> 01:16:34.270
How do they land? How do they push? How do they

01:16:34.270 --> 01:16:37.069
pull? And then how often can they do it? How

01:16:37.069 --> 01:16:39.449
frequently can they do it? And then say, okay,

01:16:39.529 --> 01:16:42.770
being strong is good. Okay, let's bench press

01:16:42.770 --> 01:16:45.890
400 pounds. Nope, that's a flawed logic. So there's

01:16:45.890 --> 01:16:48.630
some level of strength that's required to do

01:16:48.630 --> 01:16:51.289
their tasks. And then marrying that up with the

01:16:51.289 --> 01:16:53.449
prototype group to now give you a standardized

01:16:53.449 --> 01:16:56.829
data set. And if you're in that group, we want

01:16:56.829 --> 01:16:59.689
to make sure that you don't fall below that threshold.

01:16:59.850 --> 01:17:01.710
So looking at the average and thinking about

01:17:01.710 --> 01:17:03.550
an average of standard deviation, two standard

01:17:03.550 --> 01:17:06.210
deviations. with different triggering responses

01:17:06.210 --> 01:17:09.470
or interventions we want to keep an eye on that

01:17:09.470 --> 01:17:12.170
and that's truly i mean athlete monitoring tactical

01:17:12.170 --> 01:17:15.489
monitoring um you're you're waiting to observe

01:17:15.489 --> 01:17:17.909
something but you have an intervention on deck

01:17:17.909 --> 01:17:20.090
i think that's what drives me crazy right now

01:17:20.090 --> 01:17:23.850
when people say athlete monitoring um what does

01:17:23.850 --> 01:17:27.569
that even mean if i look at yep you're slow yep

01:17:27.569 --> 01:17:30.189
you're still slow yep you're not getting you're

01:17:30.189 --> 01:17:32.789
still slow that doesn't help the situation versus

01:17:32.789 --> 01:17:35.520
saying Right now, this individual is deficient

01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:37.840
in top -end velocity. This is what we need to

01:17:37.840 --> 01:17:40.979
do. This is when we expect it to come to fruition.

01:17:41.079 --> 01:17:43.380
This is the development time. In three months,

01:17:43.500 --> 01:17:46.520
we'll be there. Or vice versa, they won't be

01:17:46.520 --> 01:17:48.579
there. And we don't need to recruit this person.

01:17:48.699 --> 01:17:50.880
Or in the law enforcement or tactical community,

01:17:51.079 --> 01:17:54.359
especially, it's been a lot of like, not fitness

01:17:54.359 --> 01:17:56.479
tests, but fatness tests. It's a push -up. It's

01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.039
a sit -up. It's some sort of almost gym class,

01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:03.199
like run a mile. Don't be so deconditioned that

01:18:03.199 --> 01:18:05.420
you're a liability to go to the academy. I don't

01:18:05.420 --> 01:18:08.840
know if those tests are necessarily a good reflection

01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:11.180
of who's going to be good. And I also don't know

01:18:11.180 --> 01:18:13.380
if that's a good representation of who's going

01:18:13.380 --> 01:18:15.199
to last because, right, because we have output

01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:17.060
and then we have that strategy. So it's got to

01:18:17.060 --> 01:18:20.699
be this happy medium of, you know, again, I don't

01:18:20.699 --> 01:18:23.840
jump very high. So, you know, that's good. I'm

01:18:23.840 --> 01:18:26.460
probably not going to necessarily have as many

01:18:26.460 --> 01:18:28.979
lower body issues as someone who's 300 pounds

01:18:28.979 --> 01:18:31.600
and jumps 30 inches. So we can look at that within

01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:34.539
context. So marrying to the master population

01:18:34.539 --> 01:18:37.399
what our incoming people need and then developing

01:18:37.399 --> 01:18:39.979
it. If you're telling me right now you need to

01:18:39.979 --> 01:18:42.600
be taller, that's probably nothing we can impact.

01:18:43.039 --> 01:18:45.279
But forced production is something we can make

01:18:45.279 --> 01:18:48.819
a tremendous change in. Metabolic conditioning,

01:18:49.180 --> 01:18:52.539
bioenergetics, nutrition, lifestyle. We can make

01:18:52.539 --> 01:18:55.439
some huge interventions. But if you don't know

01:18:55.439 --> 01:18:57.500
what you're looking for, that becomes tough.

01:18:57.720 --> 01:19:00.649
We had Adam Pettway on our podcast. And he eloquently

01:19:00.649 --> 01:19:02.350
put it as you have to start with a question.

01:19:02.770 --> 01:19:04.770
I think right now everyone's collecting data

01:19:04.770 --> 01:19:07.850
and data and data. Well, so what? Like at the

01:19:07.850 --> 01:19:09.329
end of the day, you want to fight fires and get

01:19:09.329 --> 01:19:12.029
home to your family. If that's one data point,

01:19:12.130 --> 01:19:14.170
fantastic. If that's 10, but don't hit me with

01:19:14.170 --> 01:19:17.189
200 metrics that is just soup, you know, and

01:19:17.189 --> 01:19:18.869
I can't, you know, go through it. And it probably

01:19:18.869 --> 01:19:21.750
makes people more anxious. So I'm a big fan of

01:19:21.750 --> 01:19:23.550
boiling things down into two or three things

01:19:23.550 --> 01:19:26.569
for the next 12 weeks. This is what your focus

01:19:26.569 --> 01:19:28.670
is. And then we're going to reassess. And so

01:19:28.670 --> 01:19:30.489
that's the way we approach the tactical community.

01:19:30.729 --> 01:19:32.449
Because what's interesting is you can run, you

01:19:32.449 --> 01:19:35.250
can do this, even you can shoot. Well, can you

01:19:35.250 --> 01:19:37.949
shoot fast? Can you shoot responsibly? Can you

01:19:37.949 --> 01:19:40.949
make decisions? What happens when you shoot now

01:19:40.949 --> 01:19:43.310
and then you run a mile and then shoot again?

01:19:43.430 --> 01:19:45.609
Or if you do a 300 yard shuttle, is it different?

01:19:45.810 --> 01:19:47.609
So those are the kinds of things that we need

01:19:47.609 --> 01:19:49.770
to parse out because there's huge implications,

01:19:50.010 --> 01:19:52.510
especially on the cognitive function of decision

01:19:52.510 --> 01:19:55.319
-making that really is. probably more important

01:19:55.319 --> 01:19:57.579
in the first responder community than even an

01:19:57.579 --> 01:19:59.100
athlete. At the end of the day, if an athlete

01:19:59.100 --> 01:20:01.699
messes up in practice, they'll just try again.

01:20:02.520 --> 01:20:05.279
First responder gives the wrong dose and overdoses

01:20:05.279 --> 01:20:07.399
someone, that's bad. Shoot the wrong person,

01:20:07.479 --> 01:20:10.180
that's bad. So again, I think that imprinting

01:20:10.180 --> 01:20:12.579
on the negative inverse is that you're expected

01:20:12.579 --> 01:20:15.939
to do the job at a high level. That's where those

01:20:15.939 --> 01:20:18.840
minimum thresholds to your prototype group becomes

01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:21.090
so important. You got to know. And if you're

01:20:21.090 --> 01:20:23.470
a leader, as you mentioned, if your top guys

01:20:23.470 --> 01:20:26.649
or top ladies start going down because they shifted

01:20:26.649 --> 01:20:28.810
to this new nighttime shift, what are you going

01:20:28.810 --> 01:20:30.529
to do about it? Now you have the data, you're

01:20:30.529 --> 01:20:32.850
obligated as a leader to try to make a change.

01:20:32.949 --> 01:20:35.069
And that's what I hope is that wherever we go

01:20:35.069 --> 01:20:38.289
or anybody that we work with, we can provide

01:20:38.289 --> 01:20:41.369
them with a useful resource to help them to make

01:20:41.369 --> 01:20:43.489
a positive change to themselves or to the groups

01:20:43.489 --> 01:20:46.319
that they oversee. brilliant well again i appreciate

01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:48.199
that i mean it's another completely different

01:20:48.199 --> 01:20:50.819
lens and that the firefighter you know strength

01:20:50.819 --> 01:20:53.739
and conditioning or fitness side is so important

01:20:53.739 --> 01:20:56.319
and one of the problems that we have is a lot

01:20:56.319 --> 01:20:59.420
of times a department will send some some well

01:20:59.420 --> 01:21:01.960
-meaning fired up you know men and women but

01:21:01.960 --> 01:21:04.520
it will be a two -day course a five -day course

01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:06.539
and then they'll come back as the strength and

01:21:06.539 --> 01:21:08.979
conditioning guru um you know i've been in this

01:21:08.979 --> 01:21:13.390
my since you know my what late teens um on and

01:21:13.390 --> 01:21:15.890
off and still consider myself a white belt with

01:21:15.890 --> 01:21:17.810
maybe one stripe when it comes to the coaching

01:21:17.810 --> 01:21:20.189
world so you know hearing people who have truly

01:21:20.189 --> 01:21:22.630
been in this this world their whole career and

01:21:22.630 --> 01:21:25.250
this is their expertise all these different perspectives

01:21:25.250 --> 01:21:28.569
are invaluable for us well i want to ask you

01:21:28.569 --> 01:21:30.630
a question you mean i looked at your lineup that

01:21:30.630 --> 01:21:32.930
you've had throughout the years what are some

01:21:32.930 --> 01:21:35.489
of the biggest ahas that you've had as it related

01:21:35.489 --> 01:21:38.229
to the training because again I'd argue that

01:21:38.229 --> 01:21:42.289
especially now with everything going on, first

01:21:42.289 --> 01:21:45.329
responders in the tactical community has had

01:21:45.329 --> 01:21:48.090
the biggest surge of human performance. You look

01:21:48.090 --> 01:21:50.590
at some of the, I think it was 1 ,800 jobs went

01:21:50.590 --> 01:21:53.050
out through KBR and through the H2F program for

01:21:53.050 --> 01:21:55.149
the Army. I mean, 1 ,800 strength coaches. I

01:21:55.149 --> 01:21:57.630
think there's only 3 ,600 in college athletics.

01:21:57.770 --> 01:22:00.649
That's half a population. So now the military

01:22:00.649 --> 01:22:02.890
is getting involved and I see it in the first

01:22:02.890 --> 01:22:05.270
responders. Well, has that gone well? Or what

01:22:05.270 --> 01:22:06.909
are the things that you're seeing from the people

01:22:06.909 --> 01:22:10.390
that you talk to? So when you have a well -organized

01:22:10.390 --> 01:22:12.869
organization, for example, the Thor 3 program,

01:22:13.069 --> 01:22:16.939
which is the Army Special Forces. Those programs

01:22:16.939 --> 01:22:18.600
are phenomenal. It seems that they get great

01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:20.880
people. They've got great prehab, great rehab.

01:22:21.100 --> 01:22:23.859
I mean, all these areas that prepare mainly Green

01:22:23.859 --> 01:22:26.880
Berets, I believe, for the jobs that they have

01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:29.659
to do. What I see in the first responder profession,

01:22:29.899 --> 01:22:31.600
I'm sure George has told you the same thing,

01:22:31.699 --> 01:22:34.899
is we're completely siloed. So you've got city

01:22:34.899 --> 01:22:37.039
and county. And, you know, sometimes they'll

01:22:37.039 --> 01:22:38.779
have a great relationship. More often than not,

01:22:38.899 --> 01:22:41.939
they will not play well together. And so you

01:22:41.939 --> 01:22:44.359
have this reinventing of the wheel in each of

01:22:44.359 --> 01:22:47.760
these tubes. And it's a complete waste of money.

01:22:47.939 --> 01:22:50.500
And you have some great people that truly are

01:22:50.500 --> 01:22:53.319
strength and conditioning gurus that are also

01:22:53.319 --> 01:22:56.119
firefighters or police officers. But they're

01:22:56.119 --> 01:22:58.199
not utilized because they just work for this

01:22:58.199 --> 01:22:59.479
department. And they actually probably are going

01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:01.819
to get utilized by a different department. But

01:23:01.819 --> 01:23:03.779
their own department doesn't want to hear anything

01:23:03.779 --> 01:23:06.079
of it. The profit is never received in their

01:23:06.079 --> 01:23:10.539
own land. So I'm... I'm still seeing a resistance.

01:23:10.619 --> 01:23:13.220
We have unions that oppose fitness standards,

01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:15.840
which is absolute fucking insanity to me. But

01:23:15.840 --> 01:23:17.819
that's again, you talked about politics. This

01:23:17.819 --> 01:23:19.960
is the issue. Some unions are great and they

01:23:19.960 --> 01:23:22.619
support it. A lot of them, sadly, is a lot of

01:23:22.619 --> 01:23:25.300
self -serving and they realize that they themselves

01:23:25.300 --> 01:23:28.460
will maybe fall short. So if they just prevent

01:23:28.460 --> 01:23:30.199
that ever happening, then, you know, they'll

01:23:30.199 --> 01:23:33.100
be OK rather than advocating for their profession

01:23:33.100 --> 01:23:35.619
and raising the wellness and performance level

01:23:35.619 --> 01:23:39.460
of everyone up. So the need is absolutely there.

01:23:39.539 --> 01:23:42.880
The funding and the humility to bring in real

01:23:42.880 --> 01:23:45.279
experts, I think that's where we fall short.

01:23:47.340 --> 01:23:49.520
Yeah, you would think that that's probably, and

01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:53.260
again, the fitness fatness that got you testing.

01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:56.359
I can see why you might not want that, but not

01:23:56.359 --> 01:23:59.319
providing a solution or an avenue for individuals

01:23:59.319 --> 01:24:01.359
to get better and putting it on each individual,

01:24:01.539 --> 01:24:03.840
that's kind of tough. That's tough financially.

01:24:03.880 --> 01:24:07.979
That's tough. And that's got to be pretty frustrating.

01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:10.680
Yeah. Well, I mean, with the gotcha element,

01:24:10.859 --> 01:24:14.060
what I love about Florida is our fire academy

01:24:14.060 --> 01:24:16.579
is called minimum standards. Like they couldn't

01:24:16.579 --> 01:24:19.359
have labeled it more perfectly. This is the shittest

01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:23.220
you should ever be. And yet we go in and people

01:24:23.220 --> 01:24:25.479
will talk like the good old days. Oh, that was,

01:24:25.500 --> 01:24:27.119
you know, in the academy, I used to be really

01:24:27.119 --> 01:24:29.449
fit. Well, that was the. worst you should have

01:24:29.449 --> 01:24:31.510
been you should be fitter and stronger now don't

01:24:31.510 --> 01:24:34.130
get me wrong i'm 48 as we age of course there's

01:24:34.130 --> 01:24:36.390
some deficits that you know come along with that

01:24:36.390 --> 01:24:39.970
but you should be progressing so i don't think

01:24:39.970 --> 01:24:41.569
that someone should come through test everyone

01:24:41.569 --> 01:24:44.090
and then start firing people on the spot but

01:24:44.090 --> 01:24:46.550
there does need to be a line drawn in the sand

01:24:46.550 --> 01:24:49.210
okay we're going to start implementing this In

01:24:49.210 --> 01:24:51.210
two years, we're actually going to make this

01:24:51.210 --> 01:24:53.430
punitive. But in the meantime, we're going to

01:24:53.430 --> 01:24:55.270
start working with everyone. We'll do a baseline

01:24:55.270 --> 01:24:58.130
test and then we will work with you to get you

01:24:58.130 --> 01:25:00.829
back to where you need to be because no one loses

01:25:00.829 --> 01:25:03.210
with that. If you are at a point where you just

01:25:03.210 --> 01:25:05.430
don't care anymore or you've got physical limitations

01:25:05.430 --> 01:25:08.680
where you just cannot do the job. That's an entire

01:25:08.680 --> 01:25:10.659
conversation for that individual. Maybe fire

01:25:10.659 --> 01:25:13.680
prevention is where you need to go or logistics

01:25:13.680 --> 01:25:16.319
or whatever. No one should be losing their job,

01:25:16.420 --> 01:25:19.159
but should you be responding to a 28 -story of

01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:20.659
a building where a kid's stuck in an apartment?

01:25:20.859 --> 01:25:24.560
No. But the other side of it is everyone else

01:25:24.560 --> 01:25:26.479
who was kind of that middle group that found

01:25:26.479 --> 01:25:29.180
themselves deconditioned because the sleep deprivation

01:25:29.180 --> 01:25:30.600
and all these other things are real and they

01:25:30.600 --> 01:25:33.079
will create an uphill struggle for these men

01:25:33.079 --> 01:25:35.079
and women to maintain their fitness and wellness.

01:25:36.090 --> 01:25:38.050
Getting them back on to where they need to be

01:25:38.050 --> 01:25:40.310
is not only better for who we serve, but now

01:25:40.310 --> 01:25:42.449
you're increasing the chance that they will actually

01:25:42.449 --> 01:25:44.510
get to enjoy their retirement with their loved

01:25:44.510 --> 01:25:47.670
ones. What happens at the moment is it seems

01:25:47.670 --> 01:25:51.229
to be a pretty universally accepted number. Roughly,

01:25:51.229 --> 01:25:54.289
we die about five years after retirement. And

01:25:54.289 --> 01:25:56.670
when you think about the day one of those men

01:25:56.670 --> 01:25:58.729
and women, I would argue they're probably some

01:25:58.729 --> 01:26:00.409
of the more physically and mentally resilient

01:26:00.409 --> 01:26:03.279
people in their community. Yet they're dying

01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:06.300
12 plus years younger than the average person.

01:26:06.680 --> 01:26:09.560
So it's it's you know, there is no downside.

01:26:09.640 --> 01:26:12.779
We perform better. We live longer. But it's the

01:26:12.779 --> 01:26:16.500
like I said, it's the job justification and the

01:26:16.500 --> 01:26:18.739
fear amongst people that know that mirror will

01:26:18.739 --> 01:26:20.960
be held in front of their face as well. That

01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:23.119
prevents them advocating for their own men and

01:26:23.119 --> 01:26:26.170
women. And I find that disgusting. Do you think

01:26:26.170 --> 01:26:28.850
that the community would respond better to punitive

01:26:28.850 --> 01:26:32.090
response for not meeting the standard or a positive

01:26:32.090 --> 01:26:35.189
increase of options? So I think about, you know,

01:26:35.189 --> 01:26:36.810
if you don't hit this time, you got to run and

01:26:36.810 --> 01:26:39.210
do conditioning. Or if you hit this time, you

01:26:39.210 --> 01:26:42.770
get to take an extra shift or you get to do something.

01:26:42.869 --> 01:26:45.010
I remember we experimented with this at Yale

01:26:45.010 --> 01:26:48.229
for camp. That if you took your conditioning

01:26:48.229 --> 01:26:50.470
test and you pass that again, there were just

01:26:50.470 --> 01:26:52.310
certain perks and benefits that you could do.

01:26:52.350 --> 01:26:53.529
And it was set up. You didn't have to be there

01:26:53.529 --> 01:26:55.390
in the summer, but again, if we asked you to

01:26:55.390 --> 01:26:57.350
do something and you were able to be squared

01:26:57.350 --> 01:27:00.630
away enough to do it, that, that worked for,

01:27:00.670 --> 01:27:02.689
for a good majority of the time. And we tried

01:27:02.689 --> 01:27:05.449
with different teams. And I think that punitive

01:27:05.449 --> 01:27:07.329
versus positive comes down to the culture. What

01:27:07.329 --> 01:27:10.289
do you foresee? If you had a crystal ball, how

01:27:10.289 --> 01:27:12.289
do you think which system would get the biggest

01:27:12.289 --> 01:27:15.829
response? I can. I compare it to the Special

01:27:15.829 --> 01:27:18.069
Operations, Special Forces groups because all

01:27:18.069 --> 01:27:20.210
the men and women that come on the show that

01:27:20.210 --> 01:27:22.210
are from those organizations have said we hold

01:27:22.210 --> 01:27:24.350
police and fire to the same standard as ourselves.

01:27:24.989 --> 01:27:27.789
Another community that people don't really think

01:27:27.789 --> 01:27:29.590
of is lifeguarding, and I was a lifeguard for

01:27:29.590 --> 01:27:32.270
quite a long time. If you fail your lifeguarding

01:27:32.270 --> 01:27:34.590
research, you don't have a license. You can't

01:27:34.590 --> 01:27:36.710
stand by the water and watch people because lives

01:27:36.710 --> 01:27:39.329
are at stake. The SEAL community and a lot of

01:27:39.329 --> 01:27:41.590
these other ones, they self -evaluate. If you

01:27:41.590 --> 01:27:44.439
can't make the cut anymore... You have to leave

01:27:44.439 --> 01:27:46.579
the SEAL teams or the Green Berets, you know,

01:27:46.579 --> 01:27:48.800
whatever it is, if you can't stay operationally

01:27:48.800 --> 01:27:51.859
at that point that you're supposed to. So I think,

01:27:51.859 --> 01:27:53.920
you know, we could be kind of softly, gently

01:27:53.920 --> 01:27:55.939
about it. But when it comes to a profession where

01:27:55.939 --> 01:27:59.000
lives are at stake and you when you walk through

01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:01.239
the door, you were told this is the minimum standards.

01:28:02.189 --> 01:28:04.229
I've seen people do, oh, you get an extra 50

01:28:04.229 --> 01:28:06.069
cents if you pass this test. And it ends up just

01:28:06.069 --> 01:28:07.850
people trying to cut corners. Oh, come on, that

01:28:07.850 --> 01:28:10.449
was a push -up, wasn't it? No, you should be

01:28:10.449 --> 01:28:11.789
holding yourself to the point where you blow

01:28:11.789 --> 01:28:13.609
the fucking test out of the water every single

01:28:13.609 --> 01:28:16.609
time. Because the only person that's going to

01:28:16.609 --> 01:28:19.909
save that child or that person is you at your

01:28:19.909 --> 01:28:23.090
peak. And if you allow yourself to be deconditioned,

01:28:23.090 --> 01:28:27.149
then go deliver supplies to the fire stations

01:28:27.149 --> 01:28:29.949
or go check sprinklers in buildings. But you

01:28:29.949 --> 01:28:32.750
should not... be allowed a half -assed profession

01:28:32.750 --> 01:28:36.510
where someone might die because you didn't take

01:28:36.510 --> 01:28:38.729
your job seriously and that that also includes

01:28:38.729 --> 01:28:42.149
to be very fair an environment that allows those

01:28:42.149 --> 01:28:44.569
men and women to get to that place so it's a

01:28:44.569 --> 01:28:46.189
double -edged sword you have to have ownership

01:28:46.189 --> 01:28:47.970
from the individual but you also have to create

01:28:47.970 --> 01:28:50.409
an environment that gives them the tools including

01:28:50.409 --> 01:28:54.170
time off to rest and recover so they can be at

01:28:54.170 --> 01:28:57.510
their peak when needed Assuming that you had

01:28:57.510 --> 01:28:59.170
the right personnel and you mentioned those special

01:28:59.170 --> 01:29:01.109
forces, there's a lot of selection that goes

01:29:01.109 --> 01:29:04.470
into that and taking firefighting and we'll call

01:29:04.470 --> 01:29:07.189
it law enforcement as well. In that selection

01:29:07.189 --> 01:29:09.270
process, you go in and call it your just regular

01:29:09.270 --> 01:29:11.970
army, regular Navy and that leveling up. What

01:29:11.970 --> 01:29:13.670
would you do? Or do you see there being an issue

01:29:13.670 --> 01:29:15.710
where you get into certain communities where

01:29:15.710 --> 01:29:18.270
they just don't have the talent? because I think,

01:29:18.289 --> 01:29:19.970
I guess that might be one of the fears is, yeah,

01:29:19.989 --> 01:29:21.970
you didn't pass the test, but now we also don't

01:29:21.970 --> 01:29:23.810
have enough people, nor will the department or

01:29:23.810 --> 01:29:27.229
the county fill that spot versus everybody's

01:29:27.229 --> 01:29:29.409
trying out for Rangers. And, you know, same thing

01:29:29.409 --> 01:29:31.810
on the seals. They reject still what is the dropout

01:29:31.810 --> 01:29:34.569
rate from initial time to hell week is something

01:29:34.569 --> 01:29:36.350
like 80%. Yeah, I think the attrition, they have

01:29:36.350 --> 01:29:39.050
like, I think 20 % left. So yeah, 80 % lost.

01:29:39.689 --> 01:29:41.689
Yeah, it's not short of people trying out, but

01:29:41.689 --> 01:29:44.260
I just wonder. would you foresee that in certain

01:29:44.260 --> 01:29:46.180
communities you just wouldn't have enough talented

01:29:46.180 --> 01:29:48.579
people and like what would you do with that it's

01:29:48.579 --> 01:29:50.359
interesting because i've got to observe this

01:29:50.359 --> 01:29:54.680
anaheim when it was near santa ana they held

01:29:54.680 --> 01:29:57.279
their bar extremely high they what you would

01:29:57.279 --> 01:29:59.359
get hired and they would lose they would get

01:29:59.359 --> 01:30:01.960
rid of about 25 of every higher class so you

01:30:01.960 --> 01:30:04.359
had a uniform you're at a station if you didn't

01:30:04.359 --> 01:30:06.399
cut it in that first year you were gone and in

01:30:06.399 --> 01:30:09.460
my class my my higher class we lost again 25

01:30:09.460 --> 01:30:14.439
then And then we had people lining up out the

01:30:14.439 --> 01:30:17.100
door to be an Anaheim firefighter. Conversely,

01:30:17.100 --> 01:30:19.800
when I went to Orange County in Florida, it was

01:30:19.800 --> 01:30:23.180
18 and a heartbeat. And then the one after was

01:30:23.180 --> 01:30:25.500
even fucking worse. But there were no standards.

01:30:25.960 --> 01:30:29.659
And there's almost no one lining up to work for

01:30:29.659 --> 01:30:31.460
them. Their benefits were good. Their pay was

01:30:31.460 --> 01:30:35.260
good. But their reputation was dog shit. I mean,

01:30:35.279 --> 01:30:38.020
if I'm going completely blunt. So I think...

01:30:38.319 --> 01:30:40.340
I don't think that the seals ever have any problems

01:30:40.340 --> 01:30:43.159
with candidates lining up and they have the ability

01:30:43.159 --> 01:30:46.359
to cut 80%. I think that's the real conversation.

01:30:46.439 --> 01:30:49.539
If you set your bar high and there's a challenge

01:30:49.539 --> 01:30:52.560
to the high performers of the world, you're going

01:30:52.560 --> 01:30:55.159
to have people lining up. But if you just, you

01:30:55.159 --> 01:30:57.159
know, as this county here, well, you're going

01:30:57.159 --> 01:30:59.760
to be working 56 and then probably more like

01:30:59.760 --> 01:31:02.180
80 hours a week to pay shit. There's no extra

01:31:02.180 --> 01:31:05.619
time off and we're bleeding people. is that really

01:31:05.619 --> 01:31:08.159
going to attract people? So do you want to be

01:31:08.159 --> 01:31:10.859
Anaheim or do you want to be my last place, for

01:31:10.859 --> 01:31:14.000
example? So I think that's the other thing. All

01:31:14.000 --> 01:31:17.680
these colleges, you mentioned Yale. Do you think

01:31:17.680 --> 01:31:19.420
that the academics will ever have any problem

01:31:19.420 --> 01:31:22.380
getting students for Yale on the academic side?

01:31:22.460 --> 01:31:24.279
No, because it's known to be an elite place.

01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:28.859
If you see your own department... in that way

01:31:28.859 --> 01:31:31.520
and you give people the support and you have

01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:33.979
the actual work week that is attractive because

01:31:33.979 --> 01:31:35.479
they know they'll actually be able to succeed

01:31:35.479 --> 01:31:38.180
and excel in that organization, I don't think

01:31:38.180 --> 01:31:40.199
you'll have any problems. But I can tell you

01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:42.460
a hand on my heart watching this from Orange

01:31:42.460 --> 01:31:45.739
County, from Marion County, if you just open

01:31:45.739 --> 01:31:47.779
the door and anyone that can physically fill

01:31:47.779 --> 01:31:50.359
a seat is going to walk in, that's when you're

01:31:50.359 --> 01:31:52.000
going to get the recruitment problems. It's the

01:31:52.000 --> 01:31:54.460
actual polar opposite of what most people would

01:31:54.460 --> 01:31:57.739
think. So it's almost like you're rotting from

01:31:57.739 --> 01:32:00.600
the inside out. Would you say that from the unit

01:32:00.600 --> 01:32:02.680
level makes the biggest impact or is that a leadership?

01:32:02.840 --> 01:32:04.460
Because sometimes the leadership gets removed

01:32:04.460 --> 01:32:06.939
from the day -to -day stuff. And I know the military

01:32:06.939 --> 01:32:08.340
has talked about when you put someone in charge

01:32:08.340 --> 01:32:10.840
of a platoon or you get new leadership and you

01:32:10.840 --> 01:32:14.479
can have a unit that's not great, a task unit

01:32:14.479 --> 01:32:16.979
that's terrible. And then one person comes in

01:32:16.979 --> 01:32:18.739
and can change. And the people didn't change.

01:32:18.819 --> 01:32:20.539
The standards were raised and the leadership

01:32:20.539 --> 01:32:23.119
was there. But you mentioned that in the firefighting,

01:32:23.119 --> 01:32:26.060
it's so siloed. Where does that transition start?

01:32:26.199 --> 01:32:27.579
If someone's listening and they want to make

01:32:27.579 --> 01:32:29.979
a difference or they say, yeah, no, I get it.

01:32:30.020 --> 01:32:32.479
Is that a unit level thing or is that a leadership

01:32:32.479 --> 01:32:35.000
up top? I think, I mean, the ideal combination

01:32:35.000 --> 01:32:38.359
is both. I know of people that are incredibly

01:32:38.359 --> 01:32:42.470
high performing. despite their departments my

01:32:42.470 --> 01:32:44.189
last one there's some great people one of the

01:32:44.189 --> 01:32:46.470
one of my fellow firefighters actually is joining

01:32:46.470 --> 01:32:49.270
me on my i train a tactical athlete class once

01:32:49.270 --> 01:32:51.390
a week in the crossfit gym here for free for

01:32:51.390 --> 01:32:53.689
all first responders and military that you know

01:32:53.689 --> 01:32:56.970
want to show up and he comes great shape he's

01:32:56.970 --> 01:32:59.550
a you know pediatric nurse as well just a phenomenal

01:32:59.550 --> 01:33:03.229
firefighter he is excellent despite his department

01:33:03.229 --> 01:33:06.939
if you had him and a bunch of people like him

01:33:06.939 --> 01:33:09.239
and a great leader that would be a phenomenon

01:33:09.239 --> 01:33:10.800
it should be one of the best departments in the

01:33:10.800 --> 01:33:14.479
planet it's just it's so mismanaged um so i think

01:33:14.479 --> 01:33:16.420
it's a combination of two you'll hear even jocko

01:33:16.420 --> 01:33:18.380
willing talking about one of their first leaders

01:33:18.380 --> 01:33:20.939
and they all basically ganged together and got

01:33:20.939 --> 01:33:23.100
rid of him that's the lesser known you know part

01:33:23.100 --> 01:33:25.380
of his story unless you go to the the conference

01:33:25.380 --> 01:33:28.939
but um you know so i think it's both you have

01:33:28.939 --> 01:33:32.500
you can you can create a cohesive firehouse in

01:33:32.500 --> 01:33:35.619
a bad department um and you know with the fitness

01:33:35.619 --> 01:33:37.199
standards people say well we shouldn't have to

01:33:37.199 --> 01:33:39.960
have you know tests and i agree we should be

01:33:39.960 --> 01:33:42.399
self -starters where we keep ourselves in great

01:33:42.399 --> 01:33:46.579
shape but you know where is you know if you don't

01:33:46.579 --> 01:33:48.720
have that entire group of people that are so

01:33:48.720 --> 01:33:50.920
self -disciplined that they will work out regardless

01:33:50.920 --> 01:33:52.939
and i've been in those crews and they're phenomenal

01:33:52.939 --> 01:33:55.979
to be in Then the next step is to at least have

01:33:55.979 --> 01:33:58.039
a standard, as you said, those parameters. If

01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:00.680
you fall below here, whether it's a collegiate

01:34:00.680 --> 01:34:04.159
athlete, an NFL athlete, or a tactical athlete,

01:34:04.380 --> 01:34:07.279
we need to get you back up or we need to have

01:34:07.279 --> 01:34:09.100
a conversation about if you're going to be wearing

01:34:09.100 --> 01:34:11.920
the uniform anymore. It's that simple. And I

01:34:11.920 --> 01:34:13.840
would imagine in the first responder community,

01:34:13.979 --> 01:34:16.119
similar to the athletes, they want to know why.

01:34:16.699 --> 01:34:19.020
Alignment hates running the 40 -yard dash. Why

01:34:19.020 --> 01:34:21.039
do we do this? People don't even know where the

01:34:21.039 --> 01:34:23.180
40 came from. You know, and it came from the

01:34:23.180 --> 01:34:26.159
Dallas Cowboys trying to select the gunners to

01:34:26.159 --> 01:34:28.180
get under a punt because the punt hang time is

01:34:28.180 --> 01:34:31.739
4 .8 seconds. Hence the 4 -4 -40 means you would

01:34:31.739 --> 01:34:34.060
meet the ball carrier to not advance it. So like,

01:34:34.140 --> 01:34:36.060
okay, I can kind of see how that makes sense.

01:34:36.319 --> 01:34:38.779
Doesn't happen a lot in football that you run

01:34:38.779 --> 01:34:40.920
perfectly straight, but you could see how like

01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:42.960
that logic train goes. And then alignment's like,

01:34:43.079 --> 01:34:45.520
I'm not, if I'm running 40, we got bigger problems.

01:34:46.079 --> 01:34:49.420
I'd imagine in first responder community, telling

01:34:49.420 --> 01:34:52.229
them to bench, telling them to do whatever. probably

01:34:52.229 --> 01:34:54.210
has a lot to do with, well, how does that really

01:34:54.210 --> 01:34:56.770
help me with my job? And I think, at least from

01:34:56.770 --> 01:34:58.829
my experience as a coach, I'm never going to

01:34:58.829 --> 01:35:01.930
ask you to do something that I don't have a legitimate,

01:35:02.029 --> 01:35:05.710
valid rationale behind it. And I'm going to ask

01:35:05.710 --> 01:35:07.850
you, does that make sense? And be humble enough

01:35:07.850 --> 01:35:10.550
that if you tell me, listen, I've seen tons of

01:35:10.550 --> 01:35:12.149
guys that are good or tons of ladies that have

01:35:12.149 --> 01:35:14.250
been fine, you kind of eat that. Because again,

01:35:14.350 --> 01:35:16.010
I'm not the one going in fighting the fire. But

01:35:16.010 --> 01:35:18.409
if I say, hey, if your relative landing force

01:35:18.920 --> 01:35:22.300
is getting above 500 % or five times your body

01:35:22.300 --> 01:35:24.460
weight, you probably want to get that looked

01:35:24.460 --> 01:35:27.140
at because you like doing your job, but at 600,

01:35:27.279 --> 01:35:31.000
700, or 900, that is not conducive to a long

01:35:31.000 --> 01:35:34.680
-term career. If your shift in asymmetry is 5%,

01:35:34.680 --> 01:35:39.140
10%, cool. It's 30%, 40%, so 40 % favoring a

01:35:39.140 --> 01:35:42.520
leg, that's not good for a 20 -year career. And

01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:45.199
so people don't look at it as a test. It's a,

01:35:45.380 --> 01:35:48.119
wow. This will keep me doing my job. This will

01:35:48.119 --> 01:35:50.359
keep me healthy. And I think that if they don't

01:35:50.359 --> 01:35:52.600
have that association, like you said, you get

01:35:52.600 --> 01:35:55.420
that kind of resistive, you know, we used to

01:35:55.420 --> 01:35:57.899
get that, you know, I'm not really a practice

01:35:57.899 --> 01:36:00.319
player. I mean, I'm more of a gamer. And I was

01:36:00.319 --> 01:36:01.800
like, what do you mean gamer? Well, you know,

01:36:01.819 --> 01:36:03.420
I'm going to basically throttle down until it's

01:36:03.420 --> 01:36:05.560
game time. But we broke that by saying like,

01:36:05.619 --> 01:36:07.239
you need to do it for the people around you.

01:36:07.300 --> 01:36:09.920
And I do think that is a commonality within any

01:36:09.920 --> 01:36:12.579
tribe at the unit level. Do the people around

01:36:12.579 --> 01:36:14.199
each other. They don't have to love each other.

01:36:14.239 --> 01:36:16.939
They don't have to be all kumbaya. But, you know,

01:36:17.020 --> 01:36:18.760
we got to get on the truck or we got to go on

01:36:18.760 --> 01:36:20.720
this thing that I trust the left and right. You're

01:36:20.720 --> 01:36:22.720
going to do your job. And that's to your point.

01:36:23.060 --> 01:36:25.539
These aren't physical standards for fun. This

01:36:25.539 --> 01:36:27.520
is because these are the things that we know

01:36:27.520 --> 01:36:29.579
that correlate with being able to come home to

01:36:29.579 --> 01:36:32.539
our family. Exactly. Absolutely. Well, I've been

01:36:32.539 --> 01:36:34.500
doing too much talking for an interview, so I'm

01:36:34.500 --> 01:36:36.460
going to put the microphone back in your face

01:36:36.460 --> 01:36:39.739
again. So you haven't just started an amazing

01:36:39.739 --> 01:36:42.579
nonprofit called 40 Staples Strong. There is

01:36:42.579 --> 01:36:45.520
a pretty powerful, you know, health story of

01:36:45.520 --> 01:36:48.960
your own. That's the genesis of that. So walk

01:36:48.960 --> 01:36:51.140
me through, you know, when you first realized

01:36:51.140 --> 01:36:54.260
something was going on within yourself and then

01:36:54.260 --> 01:36:57.199
the mental and the physical journey that you

01:36:57.199 --> 01:37:00.449
went through with that diagnosis. Yeah, I never

01:37:00.449 --> 01:37:03.390
forget it. I actually was at the NSCA's TSAC

01:37:03.390 --> 01:37:05.630
in Virginia. I was at that conference and it

01:37:05.630 --> 01:37:07.710
was awesome. I got to see everybody and it was

01:37:07.710 --> 01:37:10.270
really, it was great. But I had a little headache

01:37:10.270 --> 01:37:12.390
and you know how things are, you know, who doesn't

01:37:12.390 --> 01:37:14.090
have a little headache here and there, but it

01:37:14.090 --> 01:37:16.050
kind of was sticking around. And then I came

01:37:16.050 --> 01:37:19.010
home and it still was kind of bothered me, but

01:37:19.010 --> 01:37:22.539
it was like. way more than normal. Um, but then

01:37:22.539 --> 01:37:24.420
it really started to kind of bother me a lot.

01:37:24.500 --> 01:37:27.819
And I remember I went to see my, you know, local,

01:37:27.939 --> 01:37:30.600
uh, general practitioner down, down in the street

01:37:30.600 --> 01:37:32.439
and God love her. She's been around there forever.

01:37:32.600 --> 01:37:34.420
She's known me back into the high school days.

01:37:34.619 --> 01:37:38.039
So here I am now as a, uh, a guy coming in saying

01:37:38.039 --> 01:37:40.779
about the pain. Um, and she said, you know what?

01:37:40.840 --> 01:37:43.279
You never, ever have complained about this stuff.

01:37:43.460 --> 01:37:45.520
Um, we're going to go get this checked out. And

01:37:45.520 --> 01:37:47.239
I was like, it seems like overkill. She's like,

01:37:47.279 --> 01:37:49.289
no, no, no. What you're saying just doesn't seem

01:37:49.289 --> 01:37:52.510
like you. And I actually look back to how fortunate

01:37:52.510 --> 01:37:56.050
she took that single inflection and her thought

01:37:56.050 --> 01:37:58.909
process made such an impact for me because when

01:37:58.909 --> 01:38:02.310
we went and did that, we did an MRI, we actually

01:38:02.310 --> 01:38:05.630
found a giant tumor. And what was crazy about

01:38:05.630 --> 01:38:09.470
it was that I have never had anything in my life.

01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:12.159
anything remotely like that so to suddenly go

01:38:12.159 --> 01:38:14.819
from being a healthy male you know excited working

01:38:14.819 --> 01:38:16.659
for a great company doing all this stuff to being

01:38:16.659 --> 01:38:18.880
like wow not only do you have a giant tumor this

01:38:18.880 --> 01:38:21.060
is stat you need to get it out and oh by the

01:38:21.060 --> 01:38:24.460
way you're telling me this on the um the five

01:38:24.460 --> 01:38:26.819
year sorry the four year anniversary of my mother's

01:38:26.819 --> 01:38:29.779
passing who subsequently also developed a random

01:38:29.779 --> 01:38:31.760
brain tumor. So until you get your biopsy, you're

01:38:31.760 --> 01:38:33.460
like, well, I've seen this story before and that

01:38:33.460 --> 01:38:36.340
was horrific. So to almost have a near day -to

01:38:36.340 --> 01:38:40.180
-day anniversary was super tough. And so anybody

01:38:40.180 --> 01:38:43.420
who has ever been through it, the mental side

01:38:43.420 --> 01:38:45.319
of things, they do a great job prepping you,

01:38:45.340 --> 01:38:46.979
but you need to go in because if they don't remove

01:38:46.979 --> 01:38:49.920
it, the tumor in and of itself can't be a problem.

01:38:49.979 --> 01:38:52.100
It could be that it ruptures the midline and

01:38:52.100 --> 01:38:54.760
it causes a seizure, it causes a stroke. And

01:38:54.760 --> 01:38:56.739
I've dealt with injuries as an athlete and I've

01:38:56.739 --> 01:38:59.520
also done tons of rehabs, but the brain is different

01:38:59.520 --> 01:39:02.779
because it's inside you. And so it's not like

01:39:02.779 --> 01:39:06.079
you hurt your elbow. It's the brain is a physical

01:39:06.079 --> 01:39:08.039
thing, but it also is the center of your consciousness

01:39:08.039 --> 01:39:11.060
and your psychology. And, and suddenly, and I've

01:39:11.060 --> 01:39:12.739
had conversations with other brain patients,

01:39:12.779 --> 01:39:16.739
that one conversation, you know, completely changes

01:39:16.739 --> 01:39:19.229
your calendar of life. You think most people

01:39:19.229 --> 01:39:21.130
are like, oh, what's my five -year plan, 10 -year

01:39:21.130 --> 01:39:22.909
plan? You don't know if you're going to make

01:39:22.909 --> 01:39:24.630
it out of surgery. You don't know if you're going

01:39:24.630 --> 01:39:27.189
to make it a year. And so that was an interesting

01:39:27.189 --> 01:39:29.489
process. Went through the actual surgery at Mass

01:39:29.489 --> 01:39:33.189
General. Dr. Curry is an angel sent from heaven.

01:39:33.350 --> 01:39:35.430
I've told him that to his face. He's an absolutely

01:39:35.430 --> 01:39:38.229
incredible individual. And just finding out from

01:39:38.229 --> 01:39:40.670
him just how many people suffer from these, roughly

01:39:40.670 --> 01:39:43.520
18 ,000 people a year get diagnosed. They range

01:39:43.520 --> 01:39:46.479
from meningiomas to glioblastomas and everywhere

01:39:46.479 --> 01:39:50.060
in between. And so that was interesting. And

01:39:50.060 --> 01:39:52.560
the rehab, I'm not going to sugarcoat, it sucked.

01:39:52.859 --> 01:39:55.300
You are excited to be able to get your catheter

01:39:55.300 --> 01:39:57.779
out. You are excited to walk across the room

01:39:57.779 --> 01:40:00.180
and pee. You're excited to go up and down the

01:40:00.180 --> 01:40:02.539
hallway and being there and seeing other people

01:40:02.539 --> 01:40:05.810
at various stages. Some went well, some didn't

01:40:05.810 --> 01:40:07.430
go well. Some people, they told me they're like,

01:40:07.489 --> 01:40:09.909
you may not remember things. You may not remember

01:40:09.909 --> 01:40:11.590
people. I was like, am I going to know what a

01:40:11.590 --> 01:40:13.710
barbell is? I'm going to be able to, am I going

01:40:13.710 --> 01:40:16.590
to be able to squat? And they're like, we don't

01:40:16.590 --> 01:40:18.449
know. And they're not kidding when they say they

01:40:18.449 --> 01:40:21.229
don't know. So that is super challenging when

01:40:21.229 --> 01:40:23.689
you wake up, but nonetheless, you go through

01:40:23.689 --> 01:40:25.550
it. And then you go through that physical journey.

01:40:25.590 --> 01:40:28.489
You start doing the rehabs, which isn't much.

01:40:28.590 --> 01:40:31.510
And again, I, myself as a patient looking at

01:40:31.510 --> 01:40:33.710
one way versus me, the coach. I was like, this

01:40:33.710 --> 01:40:35.270
is a problem because the worst thing you can

01:40:35.270 --> 01:40:37.210
tell a brain patient is do nothing for two weeks.

01:40:37.270 --> 01:40:40.050
So of course I didn't, I actually got my aura

01:40:40.050 --> 01:40:42.590
ring and I started sleeping as hard as I could.

01:40:42.710 --> 01:40:44.970
And I tried doing the meditative breathing and

01:40:44.970 --> 01:40:47.369
box breathing is a great practice for anyone

01:40:47.369 --> 01:40:50.369
to try to slow down and get control and clear

01:40:50.369 --> 01:40:53.489
your mind. The medications that they give you,

01:40:53.550 --> 01:40:56.850
I couldn't. And so that was incredibly enlightening.

01:40:56.869 --> 01:40:59.449
But I, I went hard. I went so hard. I got, you

01:40:59.449 --> 01:41:01.829
know, rib cramps and my nurse, what are you doing?

01:41:01.930 --> 01:41:03.649
I was like, I just had my third workout today.

01:41:03.710 --> 01:41:06.670
And they're like, please stop. But I tried. But

01:41:06.670 --> 01:41:08.449
yeah, I was going to work on breathing hard.

01:41:08.529 --> 01:41:10.310
I was gonna work on sleeping hard and trying

01:41:10.310 --> 01:41:12.630
to streamline that. And then when I came home,

01:41:12.689 --> 01:41:14.890
my very first workout was piston and post. And

01:41:14.890 --> 01:41:17.770
I had my cane. I did that. No problem. And then

01:41:17.770 --> 01:41:19.829
it was stairs. And I did five steps on one side,

01:41:19.869 --> 01:41:21.989
five steps on the other. And I just remember

01:41:21.989 --> 01:41:23.989
that that absolutely crushed me with a raging

01:41:23.989 --> 01:41:27.729
headache for hours. But you just kind of eat

01:41:27.729 --> 01:41:29.510
it. And I had such a good community of first

01:41:29.510 --> 01:41:32.310
responders and SWAT and other coaches that I've

01:41:32.310 --> 01:41:35.289
worked with. They didn't give me any like sympathy.

01:41:35.489 --> 01:41:37.529
They were like, be grateful, get on, you know,

01:41:37.550 --> 01:41:39.390
what are you grateful for? What's your goal for

01:41:39.390 --> 01:41:42.729
tomorrow? George would reach out to me. And just

01:41:42.729 --> 01:41:44.670
like, there is no, there's no pity party here.

01:41:44.789 --> 01:41:47.949
And that was so important to me. And what I realized

01:41:47.949 --> 01:41:51.819
was in follow -ups, not, everybody and i say

01:41:51.819 --> 01:41:54.659
regular people again lovingly but people that

01:41:54.659 --> 01:41:57.199
haven't grown up in a team environment or in

01:41:57.199 --> 01:41:58.979
kind of these competitive elite environments

01:41:58.979 --> 01:42:01.479
for performance i think they can fall victim

01:42:01.479 --> 01:42:04.300
to just falling apart and as soon as your mind

01:42:04.300 --> 01:42:06.260
goes your body follows and so i wasn't going

01:42:06.260 --> 01:42:08.779
to let that happen and so i talked to you know

01:42:08.779 --> 01:42:11.130
my family and friends and i was like I'm going

01:42:11.130 --> 01:42:12.829
to start a foundation. And they're like, of course

01:42:12.829 --> 01:42:14.729
you are. And I was like, yup, 40 staples strong.

01:42:14.850 --> 01:42:17.510
Cause that's how many staples it took to sew

01:42:17.510 --> 01:42:20.710
up this 10 inch scar. And so I was able to do

01:42:20.710 --> 01:42:23.189
that. And so our mission's pretty great. The

01:42:23.189 --> 01:42:24.989
goal this first year was to raise enough money

01:42:24.989 --> 01:42:28.149
to make backpacks. So when I went to the hospital,

01:42:28.229 --> 01:42:30.149
I treated it like game day. Literally, I had

01:42:30.149 --> 01:42:32.609
a playlist. I had my tape. I was ready to go.

01:42:32.670 --> 01:42:35.710
I was focused, but I had an ice pack and then

01:42:35.710 --> 01:42:37.789
I had a battery charger and I had some things

01:42:37.789 --> 01:42:41.289
that made a really shitty situation. slightly

01:42:41.289 --> 01:42:44.050
less shitty. And so I said, wow, that'd be really

01:42:44.050 --> 01:42:46.630
cool. And so when people make donations, if they

01:42:46.630 --> 01:42:48.970
want to know where their money goes, I take it

01:42:48.970 --> 01:42:51.069
and then I go and I try to get as many things

01:42:51.069 --> 01:42:53.869
donated as I can, but the goal was to make 10

01:42:53.869 --> 01:42:56.310
backpacks. And so we did secure funds to do that.

01:42:56.569 --> 01:42:59.489
We started that in October and we pushed forward.

01:42:59.590 --> 01:43:01.630
And so next year we want to try to do at least

01:43:01.630 --> 01:43:04.010
50. We're also going to build out the website

01:43:04.010 --> 01:43:07.350
into a digital domain for training and then reinforcement

01:43:07.350 --> 01:43:09.710
for some of the mental stuff, even little things

01:43:09.710 --> 01:43:12.760
like, You know, how do you how do you bring your

01:43:12.760 --> 01:43:15.380
scar down? Can you use PRP? You know, what can

01:43:15.380 --> 01:43:18.800
you do from, you know, neuroplasticity stuff

01:43:18.800 --> 01:43:21.100
for different apps and games to help and then

01:43:21.100 --> 01:43:23.640
have a tribe and a community for not only the

01:43:23.640 --> 01:43:25.939
patients. And this was something I didn't expect

01:43:25.939 --> 01:43:28.819
was the impact it has on the families. Like,

01:43:28.819 --> 01:43:31.500
I remember people saying to me, oh, I'm so sorry.

01:43:31.699 --> 01:43:34.029
I was like, I'm not dead yet. It's only a flesh

01:43:34.029 --> 01:43:37.949
wound. I'll bow back from this. No, stop. So

01:43:37.949 --> 01:43:39.729
that's where when I interact with people with

01:43:39.729 --> 01:43:42.989
brain tumors, I give them a fist pump and just

01:43:42.989 --> 01:43:45.930
let them know, hoorah, let's go. And if you're

01:43:45.930 --> 01:43:47.789
having the worst day to day, that's awesome because

01:43:47.789 --> 01:43:50.050
chances are it's going to be bad tomorrow, isn't

01:43:50.050 --> 01:43:52.409
it? We're going to make it 1 % better and keeping

01:43:52.409 --> 01:43:55.270
that mindset. And it's just been crazy the number

01:43:55.270 --> 01:43:57.789
of people that said, I know somebody who had

01:43:57.789 --> 01:43:59.789
a brain tumor. I had somebody with a brain tumor.

01:43:59.909 --> 01:44:02.189
And people will say, well, but you're good now,

01:44:02.270 --> 01:44:04.380
right? And that's probably the worst thing you

01:44:04.380 --> 01:44:06.220
can say, because anybody in the brain community

01:44:06.220 --> 01:44:08.579
will tell you, you know, you're one scan away

01:44:08.579 --> 01:44:09.859
for the rest of your life. You're going to get

01:44:09.859 --> 01:44:12.300
scanned. If there's one speck, if there's one

01:44:12.300 --> 01:44:15.779
itty bitty piece of tissue, it can grow back.

01:44:15.840 --> 01:44:18.579
It can mutate. And so you live with it. You don't

01:44:18.579 --> 01:44:20.859
necessarily beat it. And so that's where, to

01:44:20.859 --> 01:44:23.939
me, I was pretty young to be diagnosed with a

01:44:23.939 --> 01:44:25.880
tumor. So I'm going to be around for a while.

01:44:26.119 --> 01:44:28.119
And my goal is to kind of build that community

01:44:28.119 --> 01:44:32.260
in each bag that will go out 001, 002. I want

01:44:32.260 --> 01:44:33.979
to see that thing up in the thousands. And so

01:44:33.979 --> 01:44:36.180
as we reach out to corporate partners and individuals,

01:44:36.479 --> 01:44:38.899
there's full transparency to see where it goes.

01:44:39.000 --> 01:44:41.100
And again, this is my side thing, but I hope

01:44:41.100 --> 01:44:43.779
that I can grow it to, you know, that 18 ,000

01:44:43.779 --> 01:44:45.800
mark number is kind of, it would be a nice goal

01:44:45.800 --> 01:44:48.020
to get to of how big of a dent we can make into

01:44:48.020 --> 01:44:49.880
that. So that when somebody gets discharged,

01:44:50.239 --> 01:44:52.220
they walk out of the hospital, they feel like

01:44:52.220 --> 01:44:54.939
they have a whole team, you know. support them

01:44:54.939 --> 01:44:57.079
and being behind them and it comes in different

01:44:57.079 --> 01:44:59.300
phases and sometimes they need more sometimes

01:44:59.300 --> 01:45:01.340
they need less but at least a place for someone

01:45:01.340 --> 01:45:04.079
to turn to so we'll be making more backpacks

01:45:04.079 --> 01:45:05.760
and then building out the digital platform but

01:45:05.760 --> 01:45:07.960
anybody listening that wants to help in any capacity

01:45:07.960 --> 01:45:11.800
again super super thankful for that and again

01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:13.760
look forward to kind of keeping everybody updated

01:45:13.760 --> 01:45:16.300
online Well, you've mentioned as well, I mean,

01:45:16.319 --> 01:45:18.560
firstly, we've obviously cycled around several

01:45:18.560 --> 01:45:20.659
times now on the identity. So you've got, you

01:45:20.659 --> 01:45:22.380
know, this person is working around all these

01:45:22.380 --> 01:45:24.239
athletes. You're in great shape yourself. And

01:45:24.239 --> 01:45:25.939
now, you know, you're lying in a hospital bed.

01:45:26.220 --> 01:45:28.060
You're grieving. You just lost your mother for

01:45:28.060 --> 01:45:30.720
the same reason four years ago. But you also

01:45:30.720 --> 01:45:33.720
told me that in the ward, there were also children

01:45:33.720 --> 01:45:37.039
with, you know, with the same issue. So what

01:45:37.039 --> 01:45:39.960
was the emotional mental health impact? You're

01:45:39.960 --> 01:45:43.570
trying to remain positive and kind of. project

01:45:43.570 --> 01:45:45.909
health back into your body but you're surrounded

01:45:45.909 --> 01:45:48.310
by some of these you know tragic endings of some

01:45:48.310 --> 01:45:53.029
of these patients you're alongside um it's changing

01:45:53.029 --> 01:45:55.970
i'll say that it definitely changes the way you

01:45:55.970 --> 01:45:58.710
view things um it's hard to feel bad about yourself

01:45:58.710 --> 01:46:00.430
when you've i mean all things considered i've

01:46:00.430 --> 01:46:02.510
had a pretty good life like i don't want it to

01:46:02.510 --> 01:46:05.670
end tomorrow but i've done quite a bit um but

01:46:05.670 --> 01:46:07.670
to see someone there in a wheelchair and again

01:46:07.670 --> 01:46:11.460
you don't know tumors range from you know, benign

01:46:11.460 --> 01:46:14.699
to cancerous to spreading into different areas.

01:46:14.859 --> 01:46:16.899
And so when you see that kid who's six or seven,

01:46:17.000 --> 01:46:19.899
they're, they're 10 times stronger than I am.

01:46:20.319 --> 01:46:22.880
You know, their mom's crying, their dad's crying,

01:46:22.960 --> 01:46:25.260
and they're in a lot of pain. And some of the

01:46:25.260 --> 01:46:26.640
toughest people, they wouldn't say anything,

01:46:26.699 --> 01:46:28.239
but you just kind of look around, give a head

01:46:28.239 --> 01:46:31.319
nod, something like that. But that was really

01:46:31.319 --> 01:46:33.220
tough. So it's hard to feel bad for yourself.

01:46:34.040 --> 01:46:36.979
But that being said, why I think, too, you mentioned

01:46:36.979 --> 01:46:39.500
earlier on about mental health and wellness and

01:46:39.500 --> 01:46:42.300
support. You need to be nice to people. I know

01:46:42.300 --> 01:46:44.720
that sounds like an old grandpa thing to say,

01:46:44.859 --> 01:46:47.500
but God, like you don't know what people are

01:46:47.500 --> 01:46:50.399
going through. And just, hey, I'm so glad you're

01:46:50.399 --> 01:46:52.760
in my life. You know, thank you so much. Take

01:46:52.760 --> 01:46:54.899
that time, that pause and that reflection and

01:46:54.899 --> 01:46:57.779
put some good juju out into the universe. very

01:46:57.779 --> 01:46:59.779
quickly. And we've seen it. I mean, we've seen

01:46:59.779 --> 01:47:02.380
it in sports and in the news, you don't know

01:47:02.380 --> 01:47:04.640
if you have tomorrow. So taking the time today

01:47:04.640 --> 01:47:08.140
to be super grateful and super, you know, gracious

01:47:08.140 --> 01:47:10.359
to everybody that's helped you. That's what I

01:47:10.359 --> 01:47:12.560
saw with those kids and spending time with them

01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:15.060
and, you know, making sure that some of the backpacks

01:47:15.060 --> 01:47:17.300
have some stuff that's geared towards them because

01:47:17.300 --> 01:47:20.180
it's tough. That's a long road and you can be

01:47:20.180 --> 01:47:22.640
alive and still not living. And I think people

01:47:22.640 --> 01:47:24.359
need to understand whether that's physical or

01:47:24.359 --> 01:47:27.069
that's mental. You can see people that are just,

01:47:27.170 --> 01:47:29.149
you know, the eyes are open, but the lights aren't

01:47:29.149 --> 01:47:32.609
on. And so when you come in and you're not emotionally

01:47:32.609 --> 01:47:34.449
intelligent enough to see that, you know, sometimes

01:47:34.449 --> 01:47:36.949
your words or your behaviors can have really

01:47:36.949 --> 01:47:39.449
profound impacts, even little things like just

01:47:39.449 --> 01:47:41.729
checking in on somebody goes a long way, especially

01:47:41.729 --> 01:47:43.670
with what's going on in the world today. It never

01:47:43.670 --> 01:47:46.289
hurts to put a bit of kindness out into the world.

01:47:46.890 --> 01:47:48.710
I couldn't agree more. You're preaching to the

01:47:48.710 --> 01:47:50.850
choir. And I think that's it. And sadly, that's

01:47:50.850 --> 01:47:53.720
what we don't see. quote -unquote leadership

01:47:53.720 --> 01:47:56.819
at the very top the last few years that encapsulates

01:47:56.819 --> 01:47:58.859
both sides you know there's a lot of division

01:47:58.859 --> 01:48:02.119
and not a lot of community and building and kindness

01:48:02.119 --> 01:48:04.039
and compassion so i think we need to see a lot

01:48:04.039 --> 01:48:07.539
more many many of the layers and it doesn't take

01:48:07.539 --> 01:48:10.460
much i mean good you know just thank you thank

01:48:10.460 --> 01:48:12.220
you for everything you've done the number of

01:48:12.220 --> 01:48:14.199
people i've said thank you to that were long

01:48:14.199 --> 01:48:16.590
overdue and they're like what do you mean No,

01:48:16.609 --> 01:48:18.689
actually, when you said that a few years ago,

01:48:18.729 --> 01:48:21.109
I was actually thinking about that. When I was

01:48:21.109 --> 01:48:23.750
sitting laying in bed and the headaches for anybody

01:48:23.750 --> 01:48:28.189
who doesn't know, the headaches get so bad that

01:48:28.189 --> 01:48:30.229
you can actually justify why you don't want to

01:48:30.229 --> 01:48:33.050
do it anymore because you don't know if it's

01:48:33.050 --> 01:48:34.590
going to go away. You don't know if it's going

01:48:34.590 --> 01:48:36.130
to get worse. All you know is you have about

01:48:36.130 --> 01:48:38.170
two more hours until you can get that med to

01:48:38.170 --> 01:48:41.109
take the edge off and it's having less and less

01:48:41.109 --> 01:48:43.489
effect on you. And mind you, while you're taking

01:48:43.489 --> 01:48:45.520
the meds, The very thing that takes that pain

01:48:45.520 --> 01:48:47.300
away makes you nauseous and sick and then all

01:48:47.300 --> 01:48:50.579
the other problems. So trying to be very resilient

01:48:50.579 --> 01:48:53.500
in that headspace, a text message from everyone

01:48:53.500 --> 01:48:55.779
saying, get after it, not sorry for you. Is there

01:48:55.779 --> 01:48:58.119
anything to get after it? And then will yourself

01:48:58.119 --> 01:49:00.739
and get up, take three steps today, take four

01:49:00.739 --> 01:49:03.600
steps today and just do it. And I think that's

01:49:03.600 --> 01:49:05.539
probably the greatest impact that we can have,

01:49:05.659 --> 01:49:08.300
you know, translating that community and positivity.

01:49:08.319 --> 01:49:10.520
It doesn't. We don't know what the world's going

01:49:10.520 --> 01:49:12.319
to bring. We don't know if our leadership's ever

01:49:12.319 --> 01:49:14.760
going to get squared away, but like really kind

01:49:14.760 --> 01:49:17.239
of look at what we are, which is United United

01:49:17.239 --> 01:49:20.920
States or United as a community focus on that.

01:49:21.220 --> 01:49:23.319
You can have differences in whatever, but I think

01:49:23.319 --> 01:49:25.779
being a good person reaching out and I, you know,

01:49:25.779 --> 01:49:27.399
I don't agree with what you said, but Hey, let's

01:49:27.399 --> 01:49:29.159
come on over and have a beer. Let's come on over,

01:49:29.260 --> 01:49:32.100
you know, and you know, have a party or something

01:49:32.100 --> 01:49:34.180
like that. I think that that stuff goes a long

01:49:34.180 --> 01:49:37.260
way. And in history's time, when things get tough.

01:49:37.869 --> 01:49:39.989
you typically look to the tribe, like you look

01:49:39.989 --> 01:49:42.250
at how people bond up. And so people that aren't

01:49:42.250 --> 01:49:45.409
necessarily bonded up or people that aren't engaged,

01:49:45.529 --> 01:49:47.310
reach out, bring them into your community. It

01:49:47.310 --> 01:49:49.550
goes a long way, whether it's religion, whether

01:49:49.550 --> 01:49:51.829
it's the gym, you mentioned CrossFit, you know,

01:49:51.829 --> 01:49:53.449
we've got our encompass down the street here,

01:49:53.550 --> 01:49:55.449
you know, even within Hawken, you know, I've

01:49:55.449 --> 01:49:57.649
got guys all over the world that jump, you're

01:49:57.649 --> 01:49:59.609
a phone call away, you're a zoom call away. And

01:49:59.609 --> 01:50:03.250
so more than ever use our technology to do what

01:50:03.250 --> 01:50:05.850
we can. And that service, I forget who I heard

01:50:05.850 --> 01:50:08.630
it from. I was at one of our conferences. It's

01:50:08.630 --> 01:50:11.050
very hard to be sad and depressed when you're

01:50:11.050 --> 01:50:12.550
serving. And I was like, well, that's weird.

01:50:12.789 --> 01:50:15.270
Again, go work at a soup kitchen, go reach out,

01:50:15.310 --> 01:50:16.930
help somebody out, do those little things you

01:50:16.930 --> 01:50:18.630
mentioned you do for the tactical community one

01:50:18.630 --> 01:50:21.810
class a week. I think that was spot on with it.

01:50:21.869 --> 01:50:23.649
If you're feeling down or you're having a hard

01:50:23.649 --> 01:50:26.430
time serve, well, the people that you serve now

01:50:26.430 --> 01:50:27.829
then help the next. That's how you can create

01:50:27.829 --> 01:50:30.340
a ripple within your own community. And it literally

01:50:30.340 --> 01:50:32.359
doesn't take much. And so I think that that's

01:50:32.359 --> 01:50:34.479
where, you know, again, we can make such a huge

01:50:34.479 --> 01:50:36.340
difference in the people that are immediately

01:50:36.340 --> 01:50:38.300
around us. And even people listen to this podcast.

01:50:38.619 --> 01:50:40.420
I listened to some of yours too, that, you know,

01:50:40.420 --> 01:50:41.539
some of the things that you said with some of

01:50:41.539 --> 01:50:43.500
the previous guests that it kind of hit hard.

01:50:43.899 --> 01:50:45.619
And so you sit and think about it. So we have

01:50:45.619 --> 01:50:47.300
these new mediums and we have this opportunity,

01:50:47.479 --> 01:50:50.260
use it for good and start by doing that with

01:50:50.260 --> 01:50:53.720
an individual choice. Absolutely. Well, one more

01:50:53.720 --> 01:50:55.159
thing I want to hit before we go to some closing

01:50:55.159 --> 01:50:57.380
questions, if you've got time, you mentioned

01:50:57.380 --> 01:51:00.170
about When some people get these diagnoses, there

01:51:00.170 --> 01:51:03.449
is a giving up. And I've got one of my friends

01:51:03.449 --> 01:51:05.609
who is originally from the Holland, but she was

01:51:05.609 --> 01:51:07.729
a law enforcement officer here, or is again now,

01:51:07.829 --> 01:51:11.310
in America. And she had, I think it was exact

01:51:11.310 --> 01:51:13.210
same tumor that you had, if I'm not mistaken,

01:51:13.270 --> 01:51:15.529
but the same thing. She went from this incredible

01:51:15.529 --> 01:51:18.489
tactical athlete to basically a skeleton for

01:51:18.489 --> 01:51:19.850
a while and then was having to build herself

01:51:19.850 --> 01:51:24.829
up. Talk to me about some of the mentoring. What

01:51:24.829 --> 01:51:26.949
is the dark place that people can find after

01:51:26.949 --> 01:51:31.390
a diagnosis and how do you help kind of invigorate

01:51:31.390 --> 01:51:33.630
them and give them the belief that they can rebuild

01:51:33.630 --> 01:51:37.930
themselves again? Yeah, I mean, we're going to

01:51:37.930 --> 01:51:40.109
get heavy here quick, but one of the things I

01:51:40.109 --> 01:51:43.930
advise people through 40 Staples, whatever tumor

01:51:43.930 --> 01:51:46.390
you have, it's going to suck. Don't let anybody

01:51:46.390 --> 01:51:49.859
fool you. benign this that all the the medical

01:51:49.859 --> 01:51:52.600
thing it's gonna suck it's gonna be tough on

01:51:52.600 --> 01:51:54.060
you professionally it's gonna be tough on you

01:51:54.060 --> 01:51:55.399
personally it's gonna be tough on the people

01:51:55.399 --> 01:51:58.399
around you more so than you can imagine so i

01:51:58.399 --> 01:52:00.359
would ask what is your scout now what do you

01:52:00.359 --> 01:52:03.460
mean your scout well when we go into aims we

01:52:03.460 --> 01:52:05.239
always scout the other team we go through training

01:52:05.239 --> 01:52:07.399
whatever set that up because most people won't

01:52:07.399 --> 01:52:09.819
have surgery when they get a diagnosis like that

01:52:09.819 --> 01:52:12.340
within 24 hours But you can say, who's going

01:52:12.340 --> 01:52:14.020
to be in charge of my medical? Who's going to

01:52:14.020 --> 01:52:16.340
be in charge of my finance? When I come home,

01:52:16.420 --> 01:52:18.600
who can be there? Do I need a nurse to be able

01:52:18.600 --> 01:52:21.399
to come take care of me? Have a good two -week

01:52:21.399 --> 01:52:24.539
prep so that that way when two weeks comes, a

01:52:24.539 --> 01:52:26.159
bunch of things start to happen, just like it

01:52:26.159 --> 01:52:28.460
would for a game. And then when you get in it,

01:52:28.500 --> 01:52:32.039
game day, which is surgery day, and then depending

01:52:32.039 --> 01:52:34.000
on what you have, you have about two weeks where

01:52:34.000 --> 01:52:36.439
you're going through pretty intense recovery

01:52:36.439 --> 01:52:40.739
before you get into rehab. you've got your caretakers

01:52:40.739 --> 01:52:42.979
in place. And just like in a game or in a team

01:52:42.979 --> 01:52:45.779
or in a squad, the expectation that you're going

01:52:45.779 --> 01:52:47.760
to be a rock and make it through it is pretty

01:52:47.760 --> 01:52:51.180
silly. And that's kind of an unnecessary pressure

01:52:51.180 --> 01:52:53.159
that a lot of patients I find put on themselves.

01:52:53.840 --> 01:52:56.399
You're going to be at the very, very bottom and

01:52:56.399 --> 01:52:58.399
you're not going to know how to get up. You're

01:52:58.399 --> 01:52:59.699
not going to, you're going to feel terrible and

01:52:59.699 --> 01:53:01.699
you're going to have all sorts of thoughts, all

01:53:01.699 --> 01:53:03.939
justified by the way. And you got to be able

01:53:03.939 --> 01:53:05.579
to justify and go through those things. But once

01:53:05.579 --> 01:53:07.039
you think through that and you're sitting at

01:53:07.039 --> 01:53:09.079
the bottom, I need you to pick your chin up.

01:53:10.300 --> 01:53:12.039
You don't have to start moving yet, but you got

01:53:12.039 --> 01:53:13.119
to pick your chin up. If you can't pick your

01:53:13.119 --> 01:53:15.199
chin up, you've already had that meeting two

01:53:15.199 --> 01:53:17.619
weeks prior to have somebody there. And for me,

01:53:17.619 --> 01:53:19.859
it was the get up. What are you going to do?

01:53:20.020 --> 01:53:22.859
Be grateful. I'm not going to sit passively for

01:53:22.859 --> 01:53:24.439
two weeks. I'm going to start my sleep training.

01:53:24.539 --> 01:53:25.979
And everyone laughs at me. I was like, I said

01:53:25.979 --> 01:53:29.140
a PR. I lowered my HRV by like five points. That's

01:53:29.140 --> 01:53:31.550
what I needed. And not that that works for everybody,

01:53:31.649 --> 01:53:34.710
but I had at least a plan and a roadmap. And

01:53:34.710 --> 01:53:36.569
then I had my group of people came to visit at

01:53:36.569 --> 01:53:38.869
the hospital. And sometimes you want people to

01:53:38.869 --> 01:53:41.689
visit other times you don't. And so, but having

01:53:41.689 --> 01:53:43.930
those conversations and putting people on point

01:53:43.930 --> 01:53:45.930
and not just one person, because one person can't

01:53:45.930 --> 01:53:47.970
handle it, put together your squad. And again,

01:53:48.010 --> 01:53:50.310
a lot of that comes from my kind of football

01:53:50.310 --> 01:53:53.289
background of that. It takes an entire team of

01:53:53.289 --> 01:53:55.810
support staff to get through an event. Rehab

01:53:55.810 --> 01:53:58.439
is a team sport. And I was so embarrassed. I

01:53:58.439 --> 01:54:00.260
didn't want to tell anybody. And I remember one

01:54:00.260 --> 01:54:01.720
of my buddies be like, yo, recovery is a team

01:54:01.720 --> 01:54:04.000
sport. And just even hearing that, I was like,

01:54:04.060 --> 01:54:07.420
oh, okay. So you don't have to take that weight

01:54:07.420 --> 01:54:09.460
on the world. And all I would say is when someone

01:54:09.460 --> 01:54:11.159
does feel guilty, because this happened to me,

01:54:11.279 --> 01:54:14.720
if you're so guilty about it, pay it back tenfold

01:54:14.720 --> 01:54:17.819
when that person has problem to make yourself

01:54:17.819 --> 01:54:20.720
feel good. And so to my buddy who said that to

01:54:20.720 --> 01:54:22.239
me, I was like, I'm forever indebted to you.

01:54:22.680 --> 01:54:24.539
even though it was a small thing, he was part

01:54:24.539 --> 01:54:26.800
of my team, part of my unit to be able to pick

01:54:26.800 --> 01:54:28.600
my chin up. It's like, okay, and now we go and

01:54:28.600 --> 01:54:29.920
you're going to have good days and you're going

01:54:29.920 --> 01:54:32.079
to have bad days. But having that team support,

01:54:32.220 --> 01:54:34.500
I think makes a massive difference, but I was

01:54:34.500 --> 01:54:36.880
shocked. It's tough. Sometimes people don't have

01:54:36.880 --> 01:54:39.319
family, they don't have support. And so how can

01:54:39.319 --> 01:54:41.359
we start to get ahead of that? So when you're

01:54:41.359 --> 01:54:45.500
in those dark times, even the darkest of dark,

01:54:45.579 --> 01:54:49.920
you just pause, accept it, and then just focus

01:54:49.920 --> 01:54:52.060
on picking your chin up. And if you can't, And

01:54:52.060 --> 01:54:54.279
that's totally fine. You have that network there.

01:54:54.380 --> 01:54:55.960
And I think that that's where, from a communication

01:54:55.960 --> 01:54:58.579
standpoint, the expectation you're going to make

01:54:58.579 --> 01:55:01.279
it on your own, you make it harder than it has

01:55:01.279 --> 01:55:02.899
to be. I mean, ultimately you're going to choose

01:55:02.899 --> 01:55:05.520
the journey and path that you take, but having

01:55:05.520 --> 01:55:07.720
that group there makes such a difference. And

01:55:07.720 --> 01:55:09.840
then just pay it back. Oh my God, I can't thank

01:55:09.840 --> 01:55:12.079
you enough. No, no, you actually can. Like when

01:55:12.079 --> 01:55:14.560
I go through shit or I need a babysitter, I need

01:55:14.560 --> 01:55:17.000
something, be there. And I've seen that happen

01:55:17.000 --> 01:55:19.779
tenfold. And that seems to be a really good strategy.

01:55:21.210 --> 01:55:23.130
Because again, your mind, especially in the brain

01:55:23.130 --> 01:55:25.390
tumor, will start playing tricks on you. And

01:55:25.390 --> 01:55:28.930
you need to know that. And they're valid. They're

01:55:28.930 --> 01:55:31.670
valid tricks. They're valid feelings of sadness.

01:55:31.850 --> 01:55:35.170
They're valid feelings of giving up. Good. Accept

01:55:35.170 --> 01:55:37.630
it. Eat it. And then let's pick our chin up.

01:55:37.729 --> 01:55:39.430
And if you can pick your chin up, you can make

01:55:39.430 --> 01:55:41.350
it to that next day. And that's been super helpful

01:55:41.350 --> 01:55:43.789
for myself and then other people as well. Because

01:55:43.789 --> 01:55:46.510
that mental component takes time, both acutely,

01:55:46.529 --> 01:55:48.850
but then chronic as you're rebuilding yourself.

01:55:48.970 --> 01:55:51.920
Like you said, that lady. You feel like you have

01:55:51.920 --> 01:55:53.659
this armor that you have to rebuild because who

01:55:53.659 --> 01:55:56.359
am I? Am I sick? Am I the brain patient? Am I

01:55:56.359 --> 01:55:58.840
the triathlete? Am I the coach? Who am I? And

01:55:58.840 --> 01:56:01.840
that process takes time. And if you bake a cake

01:56:01.840 --> 01:56:04.020
at 600 degrees, it doesn't cook it twice as fast.

01:56:04.119 --> 01:56:06.159
It just burns it. So go through your own time

01:56:06.159 --> 01:56:07.960
and your pace and have your team there to support.

01:56:08.140 --> 01:56:11.239
And I also think, especially patients, if you're

01:56:11.239 --> 01:56:13.600
listening, a lot of people are willing to help.

01:56:14.579 --> 01:56:16.720
You'd be shocked how many people, if you ask

01:56:16.720 --> 01:56:19.050
for help. They will. And if you can't ask for

01:56:19.050 --> 01:56:21.069
help, talk to me and I'll ask for you because

01:56:21.069 --> 01:56:24.050
I don't really care. And when you see that, people

01:56:24.050 --> 01:56:26.449
are just so grateful. But again, I think the

01:56:26.449 --> 01:56:28.970
only reason why I can have this perspective is

01:56:28.970 --> 01:56:30.689
because I've been through how many competitions

01:56:30.689 --> 01:56:33.729
in sport and seen different models and part of

01:56:33.729 --> 01:56:36.109
an elite community where failure isn't an option.

01:56:36.609 --> 01:56:38.310
We're going to do it. And we're going to every

01:56:38.310 --> 01:56:40.729
day just try to get 1 % better. Don't be the

01:56:40.729 --> 01:56:43.609
old you overnight and focus on that. And that

01:56:43.609 --> 01:56:46.149
tends to help keep the dark times a little bit

01:56:46.149 --> 01:56:49.010
brighter. well i want to thank you for that perspective

01:56:49.010 --> 01:56:50.710
i mean firstly there will be people listening

01:56:50.710 --> 01:56:53.189
to this that probably are diagnosed with some

01:56:53.189 --> 01:56:55.550
sort of cancer or tumor that this is directly

01:56:55.550 --> 01:56:58.130
pertinent to but then you don't have to be a

01:56:58.130 --> 01:57:00.710
genius to realize this applies to a knee injury

01:57:00.710 --> 01:57:04.390
a back injury or an addiction or a depression

01:57:04.390 --> 01:57:08.510
this whole it takes a village um is so important

01:57:08.510 --> 01:57:09.829
and i think this is the problem with the mental

01:57:09.829 --> 01:57:13.510
health conversation is people feel because we

01:57:13.510 --> 01:57:16.800
are a selfless you know type of profession ultimately

01:57:16.800 --> 01:57:19.039
we will literally give up our lives for a complete

01:57:19.039 --> 01:57:21.460
stranger if it comes to that we don't want to

01:57:21.460 --> 01:57:23.460
ask for help we don't want to be a burden which

01:57:23.460 --> 01:57:25.680
is also sadly that feeling of burdensome is is

01:57:25.680 --> 01:57:28.899
a huge um red flag in the whole mental health

01:57:28.899 --> 01:57:30.699
thing because a lot of times that is the precursor

01:57:30.699 --> 01:57:34.380
to suicide but understanding that tribes have

01:57:34.380 --> 01:57:36.420
always existed since the beginning of time and

01:57:36.420 --> 01:57:38.300
that you're supposed to be part of a unit and

01:57:38.300 --> 01:57:40.560
i can attest a hundred percent the number of

01:57:40.560 --> 01:57:43.930
people i've heard people are just dying to help

01:57:43.930 --> 01:57:46.689
good people which is most people are truly wanting

01:57:46.689 --> 01:57:49.109
to help they just need to be asked and being

01:57:49.109 --> 01:57:52.069
given some direction so everything that you said

01:57:52.069 --> 01:57:54.229
i mean it's obviously so pertinent to people

01:57:54.229 --> 01:57:56.189
if they've got a diagnosis like yours but also

01:57:56.189 --> 01:57:58.529
the application can be in so many different areas

01:57:58.529 --> 01:58:01.710
yeah i mean you're going to get the poor me's

01:58:01.710 --> 01:58:05.050
that's going to happen so when it does happen

01:58:05.050 --> 01:58:08.159
accepting that goes a long way and i wouldn't

01:58:08.159 --> 01:58:10.819
consider myself super super religious but definitely

01:58:10.819 --> 01:58:13.479
believe in you know a higher higher thing than

01:58:13.479 --> 01:58:15.880
myself and i remember one of the uh the priests

01:58:15.880 --> 01:58:18.039
i worked with said just remember god will only

01:58:18.039 --> 01:58:20.659
give you give you what you can handle and i was

01:58:20.659 --> 01:58:21.880
like well shit i didn't know they had so much

01:58:21.880 --> 01:58:23.239
faith in me i mean couldn't we get the light

01:58:23.239 --> 01:58:26.340
version what are we talking about like i'm glad

01:58:26.340 --> 01:58:28.159
he's excited could i get a roadmap can i get

01:58:28.159 --> 01:58:30.279
this and then and again it comes back to you

01:58:30.279 --> 01:58:32.600
have to have faith and so even in your toughest

01:58:32.600 --> 01:58:34.079
time he's only going to give you what you can

01:58:34.079 --> 01:58:36.539
handle and I think when you come out the other

01:58:36.539 --> 01:58:38.079
side, if I didn't go through all that, how do

01:58:38.079 --> 01:58:40.520
I make a foundation? If I didn't go through that,

01:58:40.560 --> 01:58:42.539
how do I look someone right now? And sometimes

01:58:42.539 --> 01:58:44.100
when you get the staples, they get all leaky

01:58:44.100 --> 01:58:46.420
and you got pus and it's not fun and it's whatever,

01:58:46.539 --> 01:58:48.640
but that I can get in there and make a joke at

01:58:48.640 --> 01:58:50.300
someone fired up. That's a pretty cool gift.

01:58:50.739 --> 01:58:53.359
And then also in coaching, you know, when you

01:58:53.359 --> 01:58:55.380
talk about stress, that, that changed a lot as,

01:58:55.399 --> 01:58:57.439
Oh, I don't want to hope I don't miss a pass.

01:58:57.579 --> 01:58:59.579
I hope I don't, you know, I hope I hit the free

01:58:59.579 --> 01:59:01.880
throw. Like it consequentially in the whole scheme

01:59:01.880 --> 01:59:05.180
of the universe. Like that's what stresses you.

01:59:05.420 --> 01:59:07.800
So it gave me a whole different gradient of stress

01:59:07.800 --> 01:59:12.060
and probably more so just appreciation. I mean,

01:59:12.060 --> 01:59:13.939
I love going out with my dog and playing fetch.

01:59:14.300 --> 01:59:16.720
I love going and just triggering with my friends.

01:59:16.840 --> 01:59:19.279
I love just going outside and just taking those

01:59:19.279 --> 01:59:21.279
moments. And I think part of that too, I even

01:59:21.279 --> 01:59:22.800
put in some of that came out of the pandemic

01:59:22.800 --> 01:59:24.979
when you had a little bit more time to do things

01:59:24.979 --> 01:59:27.899
because I've been so full throttle, like tunnel

01:59:27.899 --> 01:59:30.819
focused on what I wanted to accomplish, slowing

01:59:30.819 --> 01:59:33.720
that down. changing jobs, then getting into this.

01:59:34.840 --> 01:59:37.279
It definitely has changed that perspective. But

01:59:37.279 --> 01:59:39.659
I think if anything, things are a lot slower

01:59:39.659 --> 01:59:41.520
and you appreciate that each day because you

01:59:41.520 --> 01:59:44.220
don't know. You're one scan away from being like,

01:59:44.279 --> 01:59:46.460
guess what? You thought this nightmare was over.

01:59:46.560 --> 01:59:48.800
It's back, but I'm not going to live every day.

01:59:48.880 --> 01:59:51.260
And nor should anybody listening because you

01:59:51.260 --> 01:59:53.399
have a diagnosis or because you're feeling a

01:59:53.399 --> 01:59:56.640
certain way today. That's not who you are to

01:59:56.640 --> 01:59:59.199
what you're going through for some period of

01:59:59.199 --> 02:00:01.619
time. But if you can pick your chin up, then

02:00:01.619 --> 02:00:04.260
there's a chance to be 1 % better. And like I

02:00:04.260 --> 02:00:07.359
said, I keep coming back to it. You may not be

02:00:07.359 --> 02:00:09.939
able to pick your chin up that day and that's

02:00:09.939 --> 02:00:12.359
where you need to have help. People want to help,

02:00:12.399 --> 02:00:14.500
but you have to ask. And even just that practice

02:00:14.500 --> 02:00:17.199
of extending yourself, how can I help asking

02:00:17.199 --> 02:00:19.420
that? If we can do that, I think it makes such

02:00:19.420 --> 02:00:23.609
a positive impact so quickly as well. absolutely

02:00:23.609 --> 02:00:26.529
well i'm sure people are you know enamored by

02:00:26.529 --> 02:00:28.310
all the different kind of topics that we've covered

02:00:28.310 --> 02:00:31.750
today firstly where can they find hawking dynamics

02:00:31.750 --> 02:00:34.029
if they want to you know kind of learn more about

02:00:34.029 --> 02:00:36.829
that side of what you do yeah hawking dynamics

02:00:36.829 --> 02:00:38.789
you just go to the website so we have a form

02:00:38.789 --> 02:00:41.050
there we have tons of information kind of broken

02:00:41.050 --> 02:00:43.899
up we have the blog We have tons of videos. We

02:00:43.899 --> 02:00:46.079
have the podcast. So I actually oversee that.

02:00:46.260 --> 02:00:48.439
So it's called Talk & Force. So you can look

02:00:48.439 --> 02:00:51.260
it up. It's on Apple, on Spotify. And so we try

02:00:51.260 --> 02:00:54.140
to bring in guests from all over different industries

02:00:54.140 --> 02:00:56.800
that are kind of elite at what they do. You can

02:00:56.800 --> 02:00:59.060
shoot us an email, all the contact information's

02:00:59.060 --> 02:01:02.300
there. And whether you're a practitioner, whether

02:01:02.300 --> 02:01:05.220
you're an athlete, happy to help out on any of

02:01:05.220 --> 02:01:07.279
that kind of front. And then what about social

02:01:07.279 --> 02:01:10.319
media? Are there any places that you exist? Yeah,

02:01:10.359 --> 02:01:12.819
I'm trying. This is going to sound bad, but I

02:01:12.819 --> 02:01:14.859
literally got locked out of my Instagram account.

02:01:15.079 --> 02:01:17.220
So I don't know how I did it. I switched phones.

02:01:17.319 --> 02:01:19.539
So I'm actively working on that. I know I'm supposed

02:01:19.539 --> 02:01:21.600
to be better, but I don't come from a generation

02:01:21.600 --> 02:01:24.159
that wants to put everything online. But I do

02:01:24.159 --> 02:01:26.279
feel, especially as it relates to 40 Staples.

02:01:26.380 --> 02:01:28.479
So 40 Staples has its own Instagram account.

02:01:29.739 --> 02:01:32.319
It's a little flexing bicep. It's the mass general

02:01:32.319 --> 02:01:36.399
color blue. But my personal one is bulldog .strength.

02:01:37.060 --> 02:01:39.000
So hopefully by the time this gets published,

02:01:39.550 --> 02:01:41.729
That'll be back on the line, but definitely reach

02:01:41.729 --> 02:01:44.310
out at 40 staples and 40 staples .com. You can

02:01:44.310 --> 02:01:46.689
go to the website as well, but just happy to

02:01:46.689 --> 02:01:49.579
help. Beautiful. Well, Thomas, I want to say

02:01:49.579 --> 02:01:52.659
thank you so much. I mean, from your initial

02:01:52.659 --> 02:01:55.319
life journey, all the applications that you've

02:01:55.319 --> 02:01:57.699
taken from the collegiate coaching world and

02:01:57.699 --> 02:02:00.479
you've applied them to the tactical athlete space

02:02:00.479 --> 02:02:03.180
and then your own personal journey, there's been

02:02:03.180 --> 02:02:05.279
so much for people can pull out of this. So I

02:02:05.279 --> 02:02:06.960
just want to thank you so, so much for being

02:02:06.960 --> 02:02:09.220
vulnerable today and being so generous with your

02:02:09.220 --> 02:02:12.380
time. Oh, thank you so much. Again, I've listened

02:02:12.380 --> 02:02:14.159
to them and to be a part of something like this.

02:02:14.300 --> 02:02:16.659
What's nice about the long form spoken word is

02:02:16.659 --> 02:02:18.680
that we don't know how many people this is going

02:02:18.680 --> 02:02:21.619
to impact. And so then when I was connected with

02:02:21.619 --> 02:02:23.319
you, the opportunity to do this is huge. And

02:02:23.319 --> 02:02:25.439
I hope that it makes at least one person's day

02:02:25.439 --> 02:02:27.439
a little bit better. And hopefully this lasts

02:02:27.439 --> 02:02:30.020
for a long time and it can help generations of

02:02:30.020 --> 02:02:31.720
people. So thank you so much for having me on.