WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by a company who has

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truly found a solution to an age -old problem,

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and that is Karna Bunker Gear. One of the most

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prevalent conversations in the fire service is

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should we or should we not train in our bunker

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gear? Now the answer to both is yes. As most

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of us are aware, the carcinogens from structure

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fires of which there are over 260 that are dangerous

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to human health, not to mention the PFAS and

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other chemicals that are within our gear from

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the manufacturing process, are factors that we

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obviously want to minimize. Now the other side

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of the coin is that we do need to train in our

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gear. There is no way to acclimatize the heat

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retention and lack of mobility than to actually

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wear the gear. So seeing this problem himself,

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firefighter and exercise physiologist Ryan Conley

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developed a carcinogen -free gear at a much lower

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cost that can be used in non -IDLH atmosphere

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and training that does not require puncture or

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tear resistance. Now, as someone who always trained

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in gear myself throughout my career, I wish this

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technology was around then. and I got to test

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it personally while coaching my tactical athlete

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class a few weeks ago and can testify that it

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not only simulates the heat retention of frontline

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gear but also the lack of mobility, which is

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imperative at operating at a high level on the

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fire ground. Now some additional benefits include

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being able to doff the gear when you do get banged

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out for a call, increasing the lifespan of your

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frontline bunker gear, And then also public education.

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Think of the number of times that we allow, for

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example, schoolchildren to wear our gear when

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it's infused with all these carcinogens. So there

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are so many real world applications for a fraction

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of the cost of IDLH rated bunker gear. So if

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you want to hear the whole story behind this,

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listen to my conversation with Ryan Conley on

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episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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or go to karnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the

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Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name

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is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute

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honor to welcome on the show neuroscientist,

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board -certified psychiatrist, and the inventor

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of Apollo Neuro, Dr. Dave Rabin. Now, in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from

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the relationship between sleep deprivation and

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mental ill health, the neuroscience behind suicide

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ideation, an incredible insight into the application

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of pharmaceuticals and where they're being abused,

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the healing power of psychedelic medicines, the

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incredible non -invasive technology he's developed

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to help with mental health and PTSD, and so much

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more. And before we get to this amazing conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said... I introduce to you

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Dr. Dave Rabin. Enjoy. Well, Dave, I want to

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start by saying two things. Thank you to everyone

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at IHMC for making this initial connection, and

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we'll get to that organization in a little bit.

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And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the

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Behind the Shield podcast today. Thanks so much

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for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with

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you. So where on planet Earth are we finding

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you this afternoon? I'm in Monterey, California

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right now. Beautiful. I normally take a deeper

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dive into someone's life, but I know we've got

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a shorter amount of time, but I think there's

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a lot of value in even understanding how you

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got to where we are today. So let's start at

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the very beginning. Tell me where you were born

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and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,

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what your parents did, how many siblings. Sure.

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So I was born in Mill Valley, California, just

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north of San Francisco. And my parents, I have

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two younger brothers, one who is now in law school

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and the other who is a physician. And we grew

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up in a family where, generally speaking, curiosity

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was highly encouraged. Asking questions was highly

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encouraged, which was really nice. And I don't

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think I fully appreciated how nice that was at

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the time, because how could you as a kid? But

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as I got older, I started to realize how... much

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that impacted my way of thinking and my drive

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to learn about the world and helped me really

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understand from a young age that learning was

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something that took place all the time not just

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when you're in school like school is just the

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school stuff but then there's everything else

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that you learn all the rest of the time of your

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life and learning just doesn't doesn't just stop

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at school if school makes you hate learning then

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it's really done a terrible job of what it's

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supposed to be doing right so i think um so that

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was really helpful and helped me get through

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the, the, my like academic school years, because

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school was actually quite challenging for me.

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And, um, I always found myself like very distracted,

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very much like wanting to like socialize and

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also be like learning the next thing before it

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was being taught. And so that was, um, that was

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school was, was tough, but, uh, again, I think

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thanks to my parents and, um, who are both also

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physicians and researchers, they really helped

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to cultivate a, um, a really nice like learning

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environment for us growing up. One thing that's

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really kind of been glaring recently in these

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conversations is what seems to be the enemy of

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critical thinking would be all things that challenge

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mental health. So stress, sleep deprivation,

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et cetera, et cetera. And I think there's this

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on here several times. I think that COVID and

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how that was perceived and received by the masses

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was a great multimillion. participant study on

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what happens to an overstressed population when

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asked to just simply stand in the middle and

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critically think. So with that being said, what

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are, through your eyes, what are the challenges

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of the resistance to critical thinking, the resistance

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to, like you said, the being the journeyman learner

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rather than staying in the parameters of an academic

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space or maybe a corporate or profession space?

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I mean, There's so many endless challenges to

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critical thinking. It's a, it's a funny question.

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I'm actually writing a book about this and because

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it's such a multifaceted area, you know, part

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of which is that if I was to kind of summarize

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it succinctly, it is that we have on one hand,

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we have a few core drives of being a human. And

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they are like, we need sleep, we need food, we

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need water, we need air, we need shelter from

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predators and from the environment. And then

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connection. Those six things are basically the

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six core things that we absolutely require to

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live as sane, functional, happy, healthy human

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beings on this earth. And we have a survival

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system in our nervous system called the sympathetic

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fight or flight response that is designed over

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hundreds of millions of years and evolved over

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hundreds of millions of years. But interestingly

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enough, it's still quite similar now as it was

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hundreds of millions of years ago in the ancient

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sea snails and reptiles, which turns on automatically

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in response to potentially threatening or threatening

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things. And we have done this incredible job

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in our environment, in our drive for convenience,

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to eliminate potential actual threat. We don't

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have lions and tigers chasing us very often.

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We rarely have predators chasing us. We rarely

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have to worry about having enough shelter from

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a storm or from the environment. We generally

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have enough people around us in terms of human

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connection. We have smartphones with social media

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that allow us to actually expand our human connection

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if we choose to use it for that. We are the most

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connected, convenient generation of human beings

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ever to exist on this earth. And you can experience

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that by reaching out to somebody immediately

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with your phone and getting together or, you

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know, ordering something on some website and

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having it delivered to you from anywhere in the

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world in two days, right? Like, we've never had

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that before. And yet, we are about to screw it

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all up. All that goodness that we have, we are

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about to screw it all up because we are so caught

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up in the, like, dopamine -driven attention.

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economy of the of social media and smartphones

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technology and all the things it's used for to

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sell us stuff or to capture our attention as

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a product that they we that they that is commoditized

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that we have become addicted to technology and

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addicted to smartphone technology in particular

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which is around us all the time but screens as

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a whole and when our attention gets sucked away

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into anything like that that's on a regular basis,

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it's not present. We are literally giving up

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our, especially when it's unintentional, we're

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doing, you know, it's just doom scrolling or,

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or endless, you know, meaningless shopping or

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like whatever it is to distract yourself from

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not feeling good using your phone or your whatever

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device you're out giving away your power by handing

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your attention over to someone else to decide

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what it gets to focus on. And then whatever it

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focuses on in those moments is what comes into

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our consciousness becomes part of us. And so

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Again, it's hard to explain in short form, but

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ultimately I think it's like our drive for convenience

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and comfort and avoidance of discomfort has slipped

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a little bit down this slippery slope of what

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happens when we start to become too reliant on

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technology for those things. And are we losing

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the ability to cope ourselves? Are we losing

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the ability to learn new things ourselves or

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to do hard things? Because we're so focused on

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being able to feel good instantly with our phones

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and distract ourselves from hard things that

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maybe we don't need to do hard things anymore.

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But it's important to learn hard things to grow

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and become a person, right? Like you have to

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be an effective person. We have to do hard things.

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It's not a question. It's known fact, scientific

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fact, right? So I think that's kind of like the

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real conundrum that we're facing as a society

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right now. You touched on sleep. So I'll just

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walk through that though. Now, this is obviously

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a dead horse that's being flogged for nine years.

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You and I first met in IHMC when we did a blue

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sky for Marion County fire rescue, which is the

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county that protects my family. And when we were

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in that presentation, you know, the thing that

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I brought to the room was the impact of the way

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that we work our firefighters, the 56 -hour work

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weeks, then the mandatory overtime that ends

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up being 80, et cetera. Without taking too deep

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dive into that whole conversation, talk to me

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about the correlation between sleep deprivation,

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especially chronic, and all things mental ill

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health. Well, so stress on the whole, you're

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talking about burnout for one, like burnout is...

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the culmination of tremendous overwhelming amounts

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of stress over time and we call that like like

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allostatic load like how much how much force

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is being put on the body uh over time and when

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that level of like stress itself impairs sleep

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and we are designed evolutionarily to not be

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able to sleep and particularly to not enter deep

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and and rem sleep states the most restorative

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sleep states when we are under threat when our

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body perceives threat And our amygdala, the fear

00:12:42.610 --> 00:12:44.250
center in the brain, doesn't know the difference

00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:48.070
between being, you know, call shifts or maybe

00:12:48.070 --> 00:12:52.529
being called for a shift or, you know, all the

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different things that could happen when you're

00:12:53.610 --> 00:12:57.370
on call at the fire department and an actual

00:12:57.370 --> 00:13:00.029
immediate survival threat. Because a lot of the

00:13:00.029 --> 00:13:02.289
times, a lot of the stuff that comes in in the

00:13:02.289 --> 00:13:04.090
fire department is an actual survival situation.

00:13:04.610 --> 00:13:07.769
And so in those particular situations, particularly

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specifically with like first responders. doctors,

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military, police, firefighters, EMTs, we get

00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:22.320
extra conditioned to respond with, to basically

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not be able to settle down and to stay in a heightened

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state so that we can tackle an emergency that

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could come in at any moment. But there isn't

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an emergency every moment. And so The stress

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of that memory of this could be an emergency

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right now or at any time, which is future thinking,

00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.200
sets our body's sympathetic nervous system into

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a fight or flight response as if there were a

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predator around the corner at all times. And

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so our bodies say, nope, we're not allowing you

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to get deep restful sleep. That's where sleep

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paralysis happens. That's where you're so out

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of it, you lose control of your body. You can't

00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:03.159
possibly be in a situation where you could lose

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control of your body. when or you're paralyzed

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when there could be a threat around right even

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if it's just a possibility of a threat the body

00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.100
shuts that down and that's one of the biggest

00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:15.159
reasons why people have look poor deep in REM

00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.659
sleep is because their stress response systems

00:14:17.659 --> 00:14:21.600
over activated and so people who have been work

00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.299
especially first responders been working on in

00:14:23.299 --> 00:14:26.600
these jobs that have an extremely high uh stress

00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:28.840
level in terms of the day -to -day work and they're

00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:33.299
working crazy hours and um Then they also don't

00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:36.559
have enough really great recovery time and or

00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.120
practices. A lot of people just go to their phones

00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.779
and start scrolling as soon as they get a break.

00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:45.360
That is not calming the body. That's adding additional

00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:47.500
allostatic load to the body. It's additionally

00:14:47.500 --> 00:14:50.279
stimulating. So it makes it even harder to sleep

00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.740
when you finally get that chance to go and lie

00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:55.220
in bed. Your brain is still hyperactivated and

00:14:55.220 --> 00:14:57.500
spinning. So does that kind of answer your question?

00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:00.590
It does. Well, I think one of the biggest myths

00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:02.549
in the fire service from the outside looking

00:15:02.549 --> 00:15:05.049
in is, oh, you get to sleep at work. And I've

00:15:05.049 --> 00:15:07.110
always used the analogy, when you sleep at a

00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:10.710
fire station, it's like the guy in the orchestra

00:15:10.710 --> 00:15:13.149
that has the big cymbals and he's whispered in

00:15:13.149 --> 00:15:15.370
your ear, I'm going to smash these in your ear,

00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:17.970
but I'm not going to tell you when. How well

00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.610
would you sleep? And that's it. Yes, they might

00:15:20.610 --> 00:15:22.889
be unconscious for periods of time between calls.

00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:26.080
But you are not getting the deep restorative

00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.700
sleep that's going to process the learning. It's

00:15:28.700 --> 00:15:31.600
going to heal all the training that you've done

00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:33.360
to make your ligaments, tendons, and muscles

00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.840
stronger. And it's not going to process all the

00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:37.259
thoughts that you've been through, including

00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:40.440
the traumatic thoughts. So every third day, you

00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:45.940
are degrading, basically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:49.299
that's the gist. And I think that's one of the

00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:51.220
things I talk about a lot is we need that deep

00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:54.860
restorative sleep. It's not optional. If we are

00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:59.779
putting ourselves in work or lifestyle situations

00:15:59.779 --> 00:16:03.519
that have dramatically impacted our sleep, and

00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.519
our sleep is under six hours a night, especially

00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:10.259
as a major sign regularly, and we're getting

00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:14.080
low amounts of deep and REM sleep, then that

00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.980
is a recipe for burnout over time. Because we

00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:18.960
need, sleep is like our number, we're supposed

00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.000
to spend a third of our, a third of our entire

00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:24.000
lives on earth asleep, right? Like we are not

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.000
even close to that. And that is like our body's

00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.480
deepest, safest, restorative state. And when

00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.120
we have to get into that state, that's like going

00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.120
to the gas station for your car, right? Like

00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.379
it's the best gas we've got is sleep. Food is

00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:40.120
like, you know, obviously, or maybe food is the

00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.809
first best gas, sleep is second. most important,

00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:45.330
but close second. So we really need to make sure

00:16:45.330 --> 00:16:50.230
that we're refilling the tank. Absolutely. Well,

00:16:50.269 --> 00:16:52.330
just going back to your journey then, you have

00:16:52.330 --> 00:16:54.470
physician parents. What was it that sent you

00:16:54.470 --> 00:16:56.649
into the world of neuroscience and psychiatry?

00:16:58.529 --> 00:17:01.090
Well, it was kind of a funny story. So when I

00:17:01.090 --> 00:17:05.049
was a kid and very, very young, probably between

00:17:05.049 --> 00:17:08.549
the ages of maybe five and nine, I started to

00:17:08.549 --> 00:17:12.289
have these really vivid dreams. And I didn't

00:17:12.289 --> 00:17:14.869
really understand much about what dreams were

00:17:14.869 --> 00:17:17.509
other than the fact that I know I would like

00:17:17.509 --> 00:17:21.170
wake up like surprised or shocked of like what

00:17:21.170 --> 00:17:23.450
I had just experienced. And as I started to go

00:17:23.450 --> 00:17:25.130
to school and they were really vivid dreams,

00:17:25.250 --> 00:17:28.509
like they were so vivid that I would have a dream

00:17:28.509 --> 00:17:29.829
that I was like hanging out with my brother doing

00:17:29.829 --> 00:17:31.650
something. And then I would be hanging out with

00:17:31.650 --> 00:17:33.450
my brother the next day and I would mention,

00:17:33.549 --> 00:17:34.789
hey, do you remember that thing that we did?

00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:36.329
And he'd be like, what are you talking about?

00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:39.210
And I would instantly remember that that was

00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:41.680
a dream that he wasn't. actually physically there

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.559
so these were really vivid uh for me and as i

00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.740
got older i started to notice that especially

00:17:47.740 --> 00:17:50.019
as i you know started talking to you know seeing

00:17:50.019 --> 00:17:52.700
patients many people have extremely vivid dreams

00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:55.000
as a kid you don't know anything about it and

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:56.759
so i didn't think much about it it's just interesting

00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:01.299
and then um when i started to go to school in

00:18:01.299 --> 00:18:03.400
kindergarten first grade second grade i started

00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.119
to have more like darker dreams more nightmares

00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:09.660
still vivid um and those became pretty scary

00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:11.619
and so i started to ask my parents because i

00:18:11.619 --> 00:18:13.779
wasn't feeling that great about and that excited

00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:16.480
about sleep you know like what are dreams what

00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.420
are nightmares you know why do we have them etc

00:18:18.420 --> 00:18:24.099
and um you know i think to calm my my mind and

00:18:24.099 --> 00:18:25.660
ease my thoughts around sleep they said something

00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:28.259
that most parents say which is like uh don't

00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:29.960
worry dreams aren't real they can't hurt you

00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.740
and i that was innocuous enough at the time but

00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:37.099
you know i kept having occasional extremely vivid

00:18:37.099 --> 00:18:39.839
dreams and they feel real, right? Like it felt

00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.500
as real as waking reality for me as an experience.

00:18:43.700 --> 00:18:47.200
And I think that was really fascinating and made

00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:50.079
me start to question from a very early age, if

00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:53.359
this feels real, as real as waking life, what

00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.740
maybe the adults don't understand what the word

00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:58.140
real really means, right? Maybe we need to put

00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:00.720
a little more like inquiry into that word. Um,

00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.519
because of the describing experience, this feels

00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.849
real. you know so what is it what is real so

00:19:06.849 --> 00:19:08.450
that was so that's kind of like where it started

00:19:08.450 --> 00:19:11.529
for me was very young and then i started to just

00:19:11.529 --> 00:19:15.769
kind of percolate on that thought and uh and

00:19:15.769 --> 00:19:16.809
then i started reading a lot of science fiction

00:19:16.809 --> 00:19:20.490
as i got into high school and um started to become

00:19:20.490 --> 00:19:22.630
really interested in studying dreams scientifically

00:19:22.630 --> 00:19:25.730
and started to find like some carl jung and some

00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:30.410
psychology stuff and i my dad took me on a walk

00:19:30.410 --> 00:19:32.970
one day uh i was probably in like 10th or 11th

00:19:32.970 --> 00:19:36.849
grade And I had really admired my parents' passion

00:19:36.849 --> 00:19:40.930
for medicine because they did some research and

00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:42.289
they spent time doing research in their careers.

00:19:42.410 --> 00:19:45.430
They also saw patients and they primarily saw

00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:47.829
patients and they saw a lot of patients who couldn't

00:19:47.829 --> 00:19:50.849
afford care for free and provide a lot of charitable

00:19:50.849 --> 00:19:53.890
medical care to the community, particularly like

00:19:53.890 --> 00:19:55.670
the poor immigrant community in San Francisco.

00:19:55.730 --> 00:20:00.970
And they were so happy about providing that service.

00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:06.380
they i always saw like how great they felt when

00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:08.720
a patient who couldn't afford like we were eating

00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:12.160
like a a rum cake that a patient italian patient

00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:13.940
could who couldn't afford care like bought him

00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:17.960
to as a gift for saving her vision you know and

00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:20.440
allowing her to see again and it was just like

00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.160
it was just like a silly rum cake but he was

00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.259
like he really felt so good about having been

00:20:26.259 --> 00:20:28.490
able to help this woman even though she couldn't

00:20:28.490 --> 00:20:32.410
pay for for what you know the service that was

00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:34.190
actually quite expensive that he was providing

00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:37.210
and that left uh seeing the patients and how

00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:39.150
happy they were you know when they could all

00:20:39.150 --> 00:20:40.410
of a sudden see again i never thought that was

00:20:40.410 --> 00:20:43.609
possible really left a mark on me and so i always

00:20:43.609 --> 00:20:45.710
had that mind but never was sure that i wanted

00:20:45.710 --> 00:20:47.630
to go to medical school or be a doctor in my

00:20:47.630 --> 00:20:50.049
early years started doing some research in high

00:20:50.049 --> 00:20:53.470
school um in the lab and started to see that

00:20:53.470 --> 00:20:55.690
doing research was really cool sort of you know

00:20:56.089 --> 00:20:58.609
going to work and see patients with doctors shadowing.

00:20:58.609 --> 00:21:01.630
I thought that was interesting. And then my dad

00:21:01.630 --> 00:21:03.369
takes me on this walk in like 10th or 11th grade.

00:21:03.450 --> 00:21:06.950
I think it was 11th grade. And he was like, what

00:21:06.950 --> 00:21:08.049
do you want to do, son? What do you want to do

00:21:08.049 --> 00:21:10.130
with your life? And I originally wanted to be

00:21:10.130 --> 00:21:11.769
a professional baseball player, but those dreams

00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:15.369
had kind of faded. And I was thinking, I really

00:21:15.369 --> 00:21:18.049
want to study dreams. So I told him. And he's

00:21:18.049 --> 00:21:20.289
like, well, that sounds interesting, but you're

00:21:20.289 --> 00:21:21.250
never going to be able to make a living doing

00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:24.230
that. And if you want to do it and you want to

00:21:24.230 --> 00:21:26.890
do it. like to the best of your abilities, be

00:21:26.890 --> 00:21:29.670
much better off going to medical school and becoming

00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:31.769
a doctor so you can see patients and then actually

00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:34.509
work with them with their material, their subconscious

00:21:34.509 --> 00:21:36.609
material and their dreams. And then you can always

00:21:36.609 --> 00:21:38.069
do research on the side as much as you want.

00:21:38.170 --> 00:21:39.650
But if for some reason your research doesn't

00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:41.190
work out, you can always go see patients and

00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:42.990
make a living. And I was like, this is practical

00:21:42.990 --> 00:21:46.670
advice. So I thought about it and I applied to

00:21:46.670 --> 00:21:52.450
a medical school, a medical school in, and then

00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:54.829
during medical school in college i was continuing

00:21:54.829 --> 00:21:59.690
to do research and found that my um that my my

00:21:59.690 --> 00:22:03.589
mentor dr sally temple who had just won a macarthur

00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:07.210
award macarthur prize for her groundbreaking

00:22:07.210 --> 00:22:09.549
research in stem cells and she offered me the

00:22:09.549 --> 00:22:11.650
opportunity to leave medical school take a leave

00:22:11.650 --> 00:22:13.609
of absence for a couple years and do a phd with

00:22:13.609 --> 00:22:15.769
her and continue my research in a more dedicated

00:22:15.769 --> 00:22:19.609
fashion and when that opportunity came up it

00:22:19.609 --> 00:22:23.140
was hard to say no so i um I took a leave of

00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:26.039
absence for a few years between, it was like

00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.660
four years, between third year and fourth year

00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:31.579
of medical school, and then did my PhD in neuroscience

00:22:31.579 --> 00:22:34.039
and stem cell and aging, and then came back,

00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:37.700
finished medical school, and then realized in

00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:40.960
that last couple of years of training that one

00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.660
of my colleagues, I was actually still thinking

00:22:43.660 --> 00:22:45.480
up until the last two years of my training, I

00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:46.740
was still going to be an eye doctor because I

00:22:46.740 --> 00:22:48.619
spent most of my time doing aging eye research.

00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.019
And then one of my good friends, I had had a

00:22:51.019 --> 00:22:52.839
great psychiatry rotation. One of my good friends

00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:54.960
in medical school, who we spent a lot of time

00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.000
together talking about consciousness, said, you

00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:58.559
know, Dave, you really need to consider being

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.059
a psychiatrist. You'd be a great psychiatrist.

00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:02.460
And I was like, honestly, I've never really considered

00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:05.140
that before. Because at that time, psychiatry

00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:07.079
was quite a stigmatized field in medicine. A

00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:08.720
lot of people didn't respect psychiatry, even

00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.640
back in that 2028, 2010 time. It's not that long

00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:17.029
ago. So I never really honestly considered it.

00:23:17.109 --> 00:23:19.750
And then she sent me 10 of the top papers that

00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:21.930
had come out in psychedelic medicine research,

00:23:21.990 --> 00:23:25.109
basically with psychiatrists and neuroscientists

00:23:25.109 --> 00:23:28.730
studying psychedelic drug -induced waking dream

00:23:28.730 --> 00:23:31.650
states and consciousness. And I was like, holy

00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:35.490
crap, this is 10 papers in top -tier publications.

00:23:35.569 --> 00:23:39.970
This is 2012. And overnight, I was like, this

00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:41.170
is it. This is my field. I'm going to become

00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:45.250
a psychiatrist and do this work. Before you jump

00:23:45.250 --> 00:23:47.950
into psychedelics, because we're about to, stem

00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:51.230
cells, I've heard kind of conflicting areas as

00:23:51.230 --> 00:23:54.289
far as what they can do currently, what we're

00:23:54.289 --> 00:23:56.450
hoping they can do, and then some of the mythology

00:23:56.450 --> 00:24:00.009
around them. As we sit here now in 2026, where

00:24:00.009 --> 00:24:02.549
are we as far as the exciting potential of stem

00:24:02.549 --> 00:24:08.029
cell therapy? I think there is and has always

00:24:08.029 --> 00:24:09.849
been an incredible amount of exciting potential

00:24:09.849 --> 00:24:14.099
with stem cells. you know, theoretically infinite

00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:17.839
potential because they're stem cells. But I think

00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:24.019
the idea, the idea being that, you know, we really

00:24:24.019 --> 00:24:26.619
are just scratching the surface. And I think

00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:29.750
part of the challenge has been. in the way that

00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:31.630
the therapies are administered and the rules

00:24:31.630 --> 00:24:33.990
governing the regulation, the regulations around

00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:36.750
the quality of the therapies. And a lot of people

00:24:36.750 --> 00:24:38.630
are still getting their stem cells from Mexico

00:24:38.630 --> 00:24:41.190
and from like other international sources. And

00:24:41.190 --> 00:24:44.289
the quality is not guaranteed in any way or,

00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:46.990
or preserved in any way. And then there are other,

00:24:47.009 --> 00:24:48.950
other companies that are doing stem cell work,

00:24:49.109 --> 00:24:51.890
autologous stem cell work, like from your own

00:24:51.890 --> 00:24:54.029
body. And they're, you know, turning those stem

00:24:54.029 --> 00:24:57.190
cells either sometimes in some cases umbilical

00:24:57.190 --> 00:25:00.049
or in other cases, like peripheral stem cells

00:25:00.049 --> 00:25:03.289
and turning them back into totipotent, you know,

00:25:03.289 --> 00:25:05.089
induced pluripotent stem cells, which is really

00:25:05.089 --> 00:25:07.730
incredible. And then delivering those back to

00:25:07.730 --> 00:25:09.509
the body and seeing great results. And so I think

00:25:09.509 --> 00:25:13.369
a lot of it, a lot of the, there's a ton of,

00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:15.990
I think in short, there's a ton of exciting stuff

00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:17.809
that's already happening with stem cells legitimately

00:25:17.809 --> 00:25:20.869
in the regenerative medicine field, especially

00:25:20.869 --> 00:25:23.849
orthopedics. There's incredible work and incredible

00:25:23.849 --> 00:25:26.329
data on orthopedic use of stem cells to repair

00:25:26.329 --> 00:25:29.809
injury faster. And most professional athletes

00:25:29.809 --> 00:25:32.589
who make their living doing as professional athletes

00:25:32.589 --> 00:25:35.289
today, when they get a severe orthopedic injury

00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:37.750
that could benefit from stem cell repair, stem

00:25:37.750 --> 00:25:40.190
cell facilitated repair, they get it. And it

00:25:40.190 --> 00:25:42.589
helps accelerate recovery. So that's really cool.

00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:47.700
A lot of other things. It's kind of overstated

00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:49.599
for at this point, but there's more evidence

00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:50.960
coming out. And I think, you know, there's a

00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:52.640
lot of opportunity there. I just think we need

00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:54.839
to standardize more so that we know we're working

00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:57.319
with the same material at baseline and then do

00:25:57.319 --> 00:25:59.640
more studies of that baseline material that's

00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.779
pure. Absolutely. It's exciting because I'm missing

00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:05.380
cartilage on both knees. My meniscus said Joe

00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:08.000
handled tears bilaterally. And one day I'm hoping

00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.519
that they'll be able to get those to grow back.

00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:12.420
So that's why I'm asking. All right. Well, then

00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:15.079
talking about psychedelics. That would be amazing.

00:26:15.180 --> 00:26:16.720
I mean, that's that's the minute thing. Obviously,

00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:18.539
the brain would be phenomenal on the spine and

00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:22.559
other one. So before we even enter the world

00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.920
of psychedelics, the traditional route, I say

00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:28.680
traditional, the modern medicine route when it

00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.420
comes to psychiatry. Talk to me about what you

00:26:32.420 --> 00:26:35.819
were taught on that track. And then let's talk

00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.660
about the pros and cons of what we know as pharmaceutical

00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:41.640
antidepressants, et cetera, that are available

00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.059
at the moment. I mean, I can answer those questions

00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:50.180
together, which is that the core of psychiatry,

00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:52.299
biological psychiatry, which is what we call

00:26:52.299 --> 00:26:55.180
it over the last 50 years or so since we started

00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:59.259
releasing and using SSRI antidepressants in treatment,

00:26:59.420 --> 00:27:01.859
which really ushered in the kind of current era

00:27:01.859 --> 00:27:05.140
of psychiatry, is really focused on stabilization.

00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:11.460
So stabilization is important. But it's just

00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:16.720
one phase of the entire treatment course or illness

00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.920
course for an individual. And when we think about

00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:23.619
stabilization for a physical injury, we think

00:27:23.619 --> 00:27:26.079
about, oh, you just got into a car accident.

00:27:26.660 --> 00:27:30.420
You're bleeding out from your legs. We need to

00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:32.039
get you into the hospital and we need to get

00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:33.640
you into the ER and we need to stop the bleeding

00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.039
and we need to get you biologically, you know.

00:27:38.869 --> 00:27:41.549
physiologically stable so that then you can heal,

00:27:41.650 --> 00:27:45.769
right? And we do that so quickly because not

00:27:45.769 --> 00:27:48.390
only can you die, but we can see the injury.

00:27:48.450 --> 00:27:50.130
We can see you bleeding out and we can see the

00:27:50.130 --> 00:27:52.410
injury needs to be fixed. In mental illness,

00:27:52.650 --> 00:27:56.589
you can't really see the injury, which is a bit

00:27:56.589 --> 00:28:00.690
of a problem for Western medicine in terms of

00:28:00.690 --> 00:28:04.609
how we approach it because it has the same risks

00:28:04.609 --> 00:28:09.740
that physical injury has, it can still kill you,

00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.920
right? It just won't necessarily kill you right

00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:19.119
away. But mental emotional injury that we don't

00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:25.339
stabilize properly can stick around if we don't

00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:27.660
do anything about it, and it can still kill you.

00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:30.700
But you can't see the injury. And so what often

00:28:30.700 --> 00:28:33.920
happens is we ignore it. uh or we're just told

00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.019
it's our fault deal with it right don't let it

00:28:36.019 --> 00:28:38.500
happen again like any of or anything in between

00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:44.039
and so this compounds the injury inside and then

00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.299
that injury just like a physical injury when

00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:51.079
not treated effectively can become infected uh

00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:54.259
you know gangrenous festering gangrenous like

00:28:54.259 --> 00:28:57.210
it can you and eventually like We amputate parts

00:28:57.210 --> 00:28:59.910
of our emotional selves from access because they're

00:28:59.910 --> 00:29:01.769
so painful that we don't want to access them

00:29:01.769 --> 00:29:03.650
anymore, right? We don't want to go back and

00:29:03.650 --> 00:29:09.170
think about it anymore. So SSRIs are really great,

00:29:09.269 --> 00:29:11.390
and many of the other medications we use today

00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:13.609
are great at stabilizing people in mental health

00:29:13.609 --> 00:29:17.029
crisis. And mental health crisis being you're

00:29:17.029 --> 00:29:19.609
about to harm yourself or somebody else, or you're

00:29:19.609 --> 00:29:22.250
in a really, really bad way and are just about

00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:24.410
to get to the point of harming yourself or somebody

00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:27.559
else. medications or the medications we have

00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:29.579
are are often very effective when used properly

00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:31.339
at stabilizing people in that state and getting

00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:35.579
them back to a near baseline state to how they

00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:39.640
felt before they had this episode a near baseline

00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:42.799
not usually back to baseline quite back to uh

00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.680
baseline being like you know how they were before

00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.619
they started feeling really bad um that's important

00:29:48.619 --> 00:29:52.019
however what we do in in mental health because

00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:55.009
we can't see the wound is we just We continue,

00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:56.950
and we have for the last 50 years, and I would

00:29:56.950 --> 00:30:00.150
argue this is one of the biggest challenges that

00:30:00.150 --> 00:30:04.849
we have that is part of the reason why we're

00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:06.509
in the mental health crisis we're in right now

00:30:06.509 --> 00:30:10.470
is because we don't have a next step after we

00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.869
stabilize you in terms of what medicines you're

00:30:12.869 --> 00:30:14.230
going to take next or what therapy you're going

00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:16.809
to do next. We have suggestions for therapy.

00:30:17.029 --> 00:30:20.640
We don't require anybody to go to it. And so

00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.079
what we end up telling people is you have to

00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.839
take these medicines for life. There's no cure

00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:26.660
for your illness. We can treat it and do our

00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:28.279
best to keep it in remission, but you could have

00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:30.920
attacks at any time, right? You could enter remission

00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:32.640
at any time. And especially if you stop taking

00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.640
your medicine, the evidence shows that you're

00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.579
much more likely to have an attack again. So

00:30:37.579 --> 00:30:39.480
effectively, you're putting the stabilizer on,

00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:42.279
you're putting the brakes on, the emotions, emotional

00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:43.819
window of awareness, you just put the brakes

00:30:43.819 --> 00:30:45.559
on there, and then you're just keeping them there

00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.170
for years. And what happens is, number one, people

00:30:49.170 --> 00:30:52.390
become tolerant to the brakes that are on or

00:30:52.390 --> 00:30:54.710
the sedatives. So they need to add more, add

00:30:54.710 --> 00:30:57.049
more distraction, add more numbing, add more

00:30:57.049 --> 00:31:01.690
stabilizer. And then people start to get a lot

00:31:01.690 --> 00:31:03.950
of side effects from those additional dosing

00:31:03.950 --> 00:31:05.690
of those medicines because they're not risk -free.

00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:09.589
And then people also start to have withdrawal

00:31:09.589 --> 00:31:12.650
effects when they stop taking them. And so what

00:31:12.650 --> 00:31:14.670
we're really moving, so that's kind of how the

00:31:14.670 --> 00:31:17.220
system is set up today. We don't really have

00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:18.980
a continuation after stabilization, which is

00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:23.519
a huge issue. I had a Swedish psychiatrist on

00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.460
probably about a year ago now, and he was saying

00:31:25.460 --> 00:31:27.599
in Sweden, I think they were only allowed to

00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:30.539
prescribe for about six months and it underlines

00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:32.940
what you're talking about. And in my world, it

00:31:32.940 --> 00:31:35.819
would be parallel to having a femoral bleed,

00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:38.319
me putting a tourniquet on and then being all

00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.349
right, just don't take it off. like you're not

00:31:41.349 --> 00:31:43.869
fixing anything down the road so it's fascinating

00:31:43.869 --> 00:31:45.450
the way that you frame that because it really

00:31:45.450 --> 00:31:47.930
does illustrate the issue and i would argue you

00:31:47.930 --> 00:31:50.289
know to remove mental health for a second it's

00:31:50.289 --> 00:31:52.470
the same with you know hypertension and hyper

00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:57.769
cholesterol and um you know the the the uh oh

00:31:57.769 --> 00:31:59.849
my god what am i trying to say now that the diabetic

00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:04.019
symptoms is Yes, some of these pills can stabilize,

00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:06.359
but where is the exit strategy? Where is the

00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:07.920
conversation of, okay, we're going to get your

00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.319
blood pressure where you don't have a stroke,

00:32:09.500 --> 00:32:12.579
but now let's talk about meditation and exercise

00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:15.339
and healthy eating so that your body itself can

00:32:15.339 --> 00:32:18.279
get back to where it can maintain homeostasis

00:32:18.279 --> 00:32:20.859
when it comes to its blood pressure. So I've

00:32:20.859 --> 00:32:22.599
always said this, that they seem like they're

00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:24.460
a great tool, but just like you said, they're

00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:27.200
a bridge to whatever is next. And if there is

00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.240
nothing next. then as you as you alluded to then

00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.299
you're walking around with a tourniquet now exactly

00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:37.000
and and so that's where i think you know we're

00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.259
coming back full circle from this last half century

00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:43.500
of biological psychiatry to where we've marginalized

00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:48.619
psychotherapy to one in which psychotherapy is

00:32:48.619 --> 00:32:52.799
becoming realized as essential to give people

00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.619
the skills they need to achieve the longstanding

00:32:57.619 --> 00:33:01.059
benefit of the healing experience from mental

00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:03.579
illness, whatever illness they have, by practicing

00:33:03.579 --> 00:33:05.180
techniques to help them cope with discomfort

00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:08.680
more effectively. And what we're finding is that

00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:12.380
if you just use the stabilizers, SSRIs, SNRIs,

00:33:12.380 --> 00:33:15.640
benzodiazepines, et cetera, to numb people to

00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:18.420
discomfort without giving them the coping skills

00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:21.119
and allowing them opportunities to practice those

00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:24.680
coping skills. to manage and adapt to discomfort

00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:27.420
on their own they never learn how to do it and

00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:29.640
so then you take the medicine away and they're

00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.460
flooded with feelings again they're like i don't

00:33:31.460 --> 00:33:32.839
have what am i supposed to do with all these

00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:35.660
feelings this is a lot right it's just overwhelming

00:33:35.660 --> 00:33:38.339
for people and i think that is in large in large

00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:41.579
part one of the major reasons for such uh significant

00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:45.640
withdrawal effects from ssris and snri antidepressants

00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:48.480
is just that feeling of being completely overwhelmed

00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:51.279
with sensation again and feelings when your emotional

00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.240
window has been narrowed and shrunk for. often

00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.519
many years. But in the past, yes, we would prescribe

00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.859
for six to 12 months. Many places in Europe do

00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:02.839
this. And then you would give somebody the skill

00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:04.859
sets they need in that six to 12 months to be

00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:07.960
able to successfully taper off of the medicine

00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:10.699
and not have to take it anymore. And so that's

00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:12.480
the work we do in our clinic. That's the work

00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.579
that many advanced clinics in America are now

00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:16.460
doing and going back to. Then we're starting

00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:19.500
to teach more in institutions of higher learning.

00:34:20.090 --> 00:34:22.730
And that's really, I think, what in large part

00:34:22.730 --> 00:34:25.090
psychedelic medicine has to offer because psychedelic

00:34:25.090 --> 00:34:31.269
medicine shows us that when you combine the neuroplasticity

00:34:31.269 --> 00:34:36.510
increasing, learning increasing, perspective

00:34:36.510 --> 00:34:40.650
shifting, biochemical experience that comes from

00:34:40.650 --> 00:34:44.130
taking a psychedelic with psychotherapy and the

00:34:44.130 --> 00:34:46.949
right kind of psychotherapy, you get these profound...

00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.500
long -lasting changes that only require a few

00:34:50.500 --> 00:34:53.440
doses of medicine compared to everyday dosing.

00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:56.659
And so you can achieve better long -term benefits

00:34:56.659 --> 00:35:00.420
with a lower side effect profile with certain

00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:02.840
psychedelic medicines used properly, like ketamine

00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.420
in therapy, which we can't currently see with

00:35:05.420 --> 00:35:07.719
existing antidepressant medications, which is

00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:10.900
very exciting. Before we kind of take a deeper

00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:16.340
dive into that, one of the startling commonalities

00:35:16.340 --> 00:35:19.480
with Pretty much every single person who's come

00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.380
on the show who's either been right at that point

00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:24.440
of taking their own life or in some cases even

00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:26.280
gone through with it and survived their attempt.

00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:30.019
When we were young, a lot of the conversation

00:35:30.019 --> 00:35:32.840
with suicide was it's cowardly, it's selfish.

00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:36.300
How could you think of your family? And, you

00:35:36.300 --> 00:35:38.460
know, that's what I believed as well. And then

00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:40.139
you start listening to these people that were

00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:43.050
there. And there seems to be this common denominator

00:35:43.050 --> 00:35:45.969
that through the perfect storm of all things,

00:35:46.170 --> 00:35:48.550
all the factors that break down our mental health,

00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:51.050
unaddressed childhood trauma, sleep deprivation,

00:35:51.150 --> 00:35:53.690
organizational betrayal, side effects of alcohol,

00:35:53.869 --> 00:35:57.489
psych meds, etc, etc, etc. There seems to be

00:35:57.489 --> 00:36:00.920
a miswiring of the brain. to where their actual

00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:04.440
reality becomes distorted. And they believe that

00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.960
they are the reason for the pain of their loved

00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.320
ones. And if they just remove themselves, which

00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:11.780
in that period of psychosis, I would argue is

00:36:11.780 --> 00:36:14.679
courageous and selfless, even though it's a distorted

00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:17.559
way of thinking, that if they just do that, everyone

00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:19.739
else will be happier. Now the healthy mind knows

00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:21.559
that pain is passed on to the people that are

00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:23.480
left. And that's a whole different conversation.

00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:27.059
But that feeling of burdensome, that voice saying,

00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:29.739
you are the reason for everyone's suffering.

00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:33.260
I don't feel like that's discussed enough in

00:36:33.260 --> 00:36:35.400
front and center mental health conversations.

00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:37.179
And I feel like it should be one of the biggest

00:36:37.179 --> 00:36:39.639
red flags that if you're starting to hear that

00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.500
self -talk or you're hearing your friend speaking

00:36:42.500 --> 00:36:45.360
in that way, that that's a good precursor to

00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.900
getting someone maybe before it's too late. Yeah,

00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:52.559
yeah, absolutely. And that is exactly what comes

00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.360
up in the trauma therapy we do with people. And

00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:59.059
it's also why like four of the most powerful

00:36:59.059 --> 00:37:02.960
words that you can say to somebody is it's not

00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:06.420
your fault you know like i think like people

00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:08.860
everybody blames themselves for more than they

00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:11.840
need to blame themselves for but people who are

00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:17.360
really in that sort of penultimate moment of

00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:22.639
despair um have this do have this often overwhelming

00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:26.969
burden that is I think you used the right word.

00:37:27.050 --> 00:37:30.230
I mean, it is delusional thinking that, that

00:37:30.230 --> 00:37:34.030
I am the reason what for everyone's suffering.

00:37:34.090 --> 00:37:36.329
And if I was just gone, this would, everyone

00:37:36.329 --> 00:37:38.369
else would live a better life, you know? And

00:37:38.369 --> 00:37:41.269
I think that's never true. Generally speaking

00:37:41.269 --> 00:37:43.929
across the board, like that's never true. Um,

00:37:44.150 --> 00:37:46.769
there, there's always more we can do together

00:37:46.769 --> 00:37:49.289
alive to remedy a situation than when somebody

00:37:49.289 --> 00:37:53.389
is gone. And so, um, so yes. And I think like

00:37:53.389 --> 00:37:58.929
when somebody can, and when somebody can be to

00:37:58.929 --> 00:38:01.570
be reasoned with right then you can start to

00:38:01.570 --> 00:38:04.889
convey to somebody hey you know it's not your

00:38:04.889 --> 00:38:09.130
fault and you know like you know there's a there's

00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:12.469
a lot that can be done here to help you um but

00:38:12.469 --> 00:38:14.630
when it enters a stage of delusional thinking

00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:17.090
reason kind of goes out the window and i think

00:38:17.090 --> 00:38:19.309
that's why that wording that you use is actually

00:38:19.309 --> 00:38:21.730
really important because that's when we start

00:38:21.730 --> 00:38:25.050
to think well like okay this person like really

00:38:25.050 --> 00:38:29.690
needs a higher level of support and care um because

00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:32.070
we're talking about someone who is has really

00:38:32.070 --> 00:38:35.469
been over rotating on these on these thought

00:38:35.469 --> 00:38:37.349
loops these just what we call like distorted

00:38:37.349 --> 00:38:40.869
thought loops that you take over your mind right

00:38:40.869 --> 00:38:43.050
and then you eventually like lose perspective

00:38:43.050 --> 00:38:46.880
that it could be any other way you get so certain

00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.059
on it. So I think like that's when we start to

00:38:49.059 --> 00:38:50.380
see those, you know, that it's good that you

00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:52.940
brought it up. That's a really important thing

00:38:52.940 --> 00:38:55.840
to notice and, and really, you know, help people

00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:59.679
as an early sign, get into, get into care earlier,

00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.380
talk to somebody early so that you can start

00:39:01.380 --> 00:39:03.679
to, you know, somebody who can challenge those

00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:05.900
thoughts, right? The whole point of therapy is

00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:07.360
that you have somebody who's not part of your

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.559
day -to -day life, who, when you say stuff like

00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:11.760
that, like, what if it's my, like, what if it's

00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.019
my fault that everybody else is suffering around

00:39:14.019 --> 00:39:16.730
me? And they're like, well, let's talk about

00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:19.969
that. Is that actually possible? Let's talk about

00:39:19.969 --> 00:39:21.730
your mom. And then you start to talk through.

00:39:21.869 --> 00:39:25.409
And they come to their own realization that,

00:39:25.469 --> 00:39:27.210
of course, it's impossible for that to be the

00:39:27.210 --> 00:39:30.690
case. But without having a person to talk to

00:39:30.690 --> 00:39:32.170
about that kind of stuff, it's really sensitive.

00:39:34.250 --> 00:39:38.590
It's hard to process. What about the prevalence

00:39:38.590 --> 00:39:41.389
of childhood trauma? When we had, again, IHMC,

00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:44.650
we're talking about, you know, psychiatric screens

00:39:44.650 --> 00:39:48.550
at the beginning of a profession it's again been

00:39:48.550 --> 00:39:51.429
incredible how many people i know that had multiple

00:39:51.429 --> 00:39:55.690
tours that had super traumatic um careers in

00:39:55.690 --> 00:39:58.110
the first responder professions and yet when

00:39:58.110 --> 00:40:00.170
they have either maybe it's traditional counseling

00:40:00.170 --> 00:40:02.690
more often not in these conversations it is more

00:40:02.690 --> 00:40:04.369
of the psychedelic journeys that they've done

00:40:04.369 --> 00:40:07.849
that it was actually the formative years that

00:40:07.849 --> 00:40:09.809
really were the fractures in their foundation

00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:13.320
But when you see the conversations in my profession,

00:40:13.460 --> 00:40:15.599
usually it's, oh, well, James had that decapitated

00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:16.960
three -year -old. That's why he's struggling.

00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:19.219
Not that when he was four years old, he was trapped

00:40:19.219 --> 00:40:21.760
in a house fire and almost died. Let's talk about

00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.199
that as well. So what about that? A lot of the

00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:25.960
people listening that are wearing a uniform,

00:40:26.260 --> 00:40:28.659
you know, talk to me about the prevalence of

00:40:28.659 --> 00:40:31.599
actually the early years being a big factor of

00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:34.519
their mental health struggles. I think it's extremely

00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:36.739
prevalent. I mean, as a trauma psychiatrist,

00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:41.000
I would argue that it's much more prevalent than

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.699
we talk about. And I think it's probably, you

00:40:45.699 --> 00:40:51.820
know, from what we know, I think it's not a question

00:40:51.820 --> 00:40:55.300
about whether or not there's a high likelihood

00:40:55.300 --> 00:40:58.260
of someone in one of these careers having childhood

00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:03.639
trauma. It's how bad was it? How severely impacted

00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:06.960
are they from that traumatic childhood experience?

00:41:07.340 --> 00:41:09.719
I would argue that pretty much everyone on the

00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:13.119
face of the earth has overcome some kind of,

00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.960
assuming that you survived childhood, some kind

00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:19.079
of severe childhood challenges that could be

00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.380
classified as traumatic. I don't know a single

00:41:21.380 --> 00:41:24.159
person who doesn't have something like that.

00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:28.139
But I think the degree of severity increases.

00:41:28.889 --> 00:41:31.829
pretty substantially. And the commonality of

00:41:31.829 --> 00:41:33.909
that severity starts to increase pretty substantially

00:41:33.909 --> 00:41:36.829
when you start to get into the military and veteran

00:41:36.829 --> 00:41:39.789
populations and also first responders. And in

00:41:39.789 --> 00:41:42.670
a lot of cases, even physicians. And I think

00:41:42.670 --> 00:41:46.630
there's a lot of people who go into the caregiver

00:41:46.630 --> 00:41:52.610
role in a field because of something that happened

00:41:52.610 --> 00:41:55.929
to them as a kid, where giving care... Maybe

00:41:55.929 --> 00:41:57.670
they had to start caring for their parents early

00:41:57.670 --> 00:42:00.710
in life or taking on additional responsibility

00:42:00.710 --> 00:42:05.289
that was not typical for a child. But yeah, I

00:42:05.289 --> 00:42:07.269
mean, I think that there's certainly a lot to

00:42:07.269 --> 00:42:11.630
that. Supposedly. Military first responders have

00:42:11.630 --> 00:42:14.869
an ACE score of 6 out of 10, and supposedly the

00:42:14.869 --> 00:42:17.769
average incarcerated person has the same. So

00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:20.510
that then gives you that metaphorical crossroads.

00:42:20.550 --> 00:42:22.789
Did you have a positive mentor or a negative

00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:25.610
mentor in your life, but the same kind of trauma?

00:42:25.929 --> 00:42:28.269
Where I think there's an interesting conversation

00:42:28.269 --> 00:42:32.670
to be had is having gone through numerous psych...

00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:36.809
You know, evals, I had to do the MMPI numerous

00:42:36.809 --> 00:42:39.329
times, which I learned down the road was never

00:42:39.329 --> 00:42:42.510
meant to be a standalone test to see if someone's

00:42:42.510 --> 00:42:44.769
worthy of being a first responder or not. But

00:42:44.769 --> 00:42:46.710
what I realized is if there's an acknowledgement

00:42:46.710 --> 00:42:49.090
that if you are towing the line as a soldier

00:42:49.090 --> 00:42:51.530
or a firefighter or a cop, that there's a good

00:42:51.530 --> 00:42:53.369
chance that you've had some struggles up to this

00:42:53.369 --> 00:42:56.400
point. And if addressed, I truly believe that

00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:00.119
becomes resilience and fosters empathy. If left

00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:02.099
unaddressed, I feel like it's the fracture of

00:43:02.099 --> 00:43:05.780
the foundation. Yeah, it's the blind spot. Absolutely.

00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:10.760
So reframing rather than checking a box and saying

00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.320
we tested to see if they were batshit crazy,

00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:15.719
they passed, so therefore we're good. I'm washing

00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.820
my hands of any responsibility. What about having

00:43:18.820 --> 00:43:21.440
the conversation of the same way that we do PT?

00:43:22.269 --> 00:43:26.389
that you literally normalize therapy sessions

00:43:26.389 --> 00:43:28.809
as you go through your formative year, your first

00:43:28.809 --> 00:43:31.090
probationary year, and then obviously checking

00:43:31.090 --> 00:43:34.230
in ever since so that you can start working through

00:43:34.230 --> 00:43:37.349
whatever it is and view it with a lens of performance.

00:43:37.650 --> 00:43:40.010
Look, you will operate at a higher level in a

00:43:40.010 --> 00:43:43.070
gunfight searching for a child in a fire if we

00:43:43.070 --> 00:43:46.070
can get your mind working clearly. So rather

00:43:46.070 --> 00:43:48.630
than this, you got over that hurdle, you're good

00:43:48.630 --> 00:43:51.610
for the next 25 years. having this conversation

00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:54.449
at the front door so you've normalized it. There's

00:43:54.449 --> 00:43:57.190
no barrier to entry when you do have something

00:43:57.190 --> 00:44:00.710
bad. And then down the road, you always know,

00:44:00.789 --> 00:44:02.929
well, I'm going to go speak to Dr. Dave because

00:44:02.929 --> 00:44:06.989
it's been a rough shift. So it's as ingrained

00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:10.170
into our culture then as pushups and pulling

00:44:10.170 --> 00:44:13.690
fire hose. Yeah, it's mental, emotional bodybuilding.

00:44:14.170 --> 00:44:18.289
Right. It's the same. It's of equal, if not more

00:44:18.289 --> 00:44:24.329
importance. And I think that when you are, you

00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:27.230
said it really, really well, which is that when

00:44:27.230 --> 00:44:31.369
we do this work, when we process our traumas,

00:44:31.369 --> 00:44:35.150
when we accept that what's going on and we work

00:44:35.150 --> 00:44:39.050
on it and we grow, we grow into highly resilient

00:44:39.050 --> 00:44:42.789
human beings. And you can measure that because

00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:45.980
When we feel like we've processed, when we get

00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:47.440
to a state in our lives, when we've processed

00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:49.139
a lot of the things and dealt with a lot of the

00:44:49.139 --> 00:44:51.360
things that have happened to us, and we're not

00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:53.119
constantly thinking about them or worrying about

00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:56.119
them or ruminating on them, we feel safer in

00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:58.860
our own bodies every moment. And our HRV, our

00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:01.099
heart rate variability goes up. So you can actually

00:45:01.099 --> 00:45:04.699
measure a biomarker, which is the rate of change

00:45:04.699 --> 00:45:06.980
of your heartbeat over time, which is a proxy

00:45:06.980 --> 00:45:09.639
for vagus nerve activity of the parasympathetic

00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:13.380
recovery nervous system. And as you... feel as

00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:15.340
you process trauma and feel safer in your body

00:45:15.340 --> 00:45:17.340
and do other things to feel safe in your body

00:45:17.340 --> 00:45:19.559
regardless of whether you have a diagnosis or

00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:22.980
not you can increase your vagal tone and increase

00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:25.059
your heart rate variability which is the best

00:45:25.059 --> 00:45:27.500
biomarker we have of consistent peak performance

00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:31.840
consistent injury prevention resisting illness

00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:35.559
uh like overall mental and physical fitness and

00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:38.780
accuracy and now longevity right longevity and

00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:41.260
health span it's the best biomarker so this is

00:45:41.260 --> 00:45:44.300
like a really important biometric that we you

00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:46.420
know now have that we can track against which

00:45:46.420 --> 00:45:49.559
is really exciting but also i think it's more

00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:52.340
what's more important is that it's it's like

00:45:52.340 --> 00:45:56.980
any of us can make a decision to just start doing

00:45:56.980 --> 00:45:59.840
this work for ourselves right now by just prioritizing

00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:04.340
it um like prioritizing um you know like you

00:46:04.340 --> 00:46:07.260
said having somebody to talk to is really important.

00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:09.059
But even just like having quiet time without

00:46:09.059 --> 00:46:11.960
your phone, going on like doing things that are

00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:13.880
like nice for yourself and treating yourself

00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:17.059
well and thinking about yourself well and with

00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:19.559
gratitude and forgiveness and compassion. And

00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:21.400
there are lots of these techniques that really

00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:25.550
help. But again, there's no doubt about it. This

00:46:25.550 --> 00:46:27.449
is not easy work when you get started, which

00:46:27.449 --> 00:46:30.010
is why having somebody as a guide along the path

00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:32.730
can be really helpful. And that really gets to

00:46:32.730 --> 00:46:34.769
why we developed Apollo, because what we realized,

00:46:34.929 --> 00:46:38.369
as you said, is that when you've processed this

00:46:38.369 --> 00:46:40.030
stuff or you feel a little safer in your body,

00:46:40.170 --> 00:46:42.809
you get more resilient. And so we thought that,

00:46:42.849 --> 00:46:44.969
well, if we increase vagus nerve activity, then

00:46:44.969 --> 00:46:49.170
perhaps we can help. people feel safer, safe

00:46:49.170 --> 00:46:51.110
enough to feel their own feelings again. And

00:46:51.110 --> 00:46:52.429
if they can feel their own feelings, they can

00:46:52.429 --> 00:46:54.449
process them and then feel better on the other

00:46:54.449 --> 00:46:57.309
side faster. And that's actually now what we've

00:46:57.309 --> 00:46:59.690
seen using this technology. And I'm just wearing

00:46:59.690 --> 00:47:01.750
one on my chest right now, but you can wear it

00:47:01.750 --> 00:47:04.130
anywhere. And it uses sound wave vibrations to

00:47:04.130 --> 00:47:06.909
help us get into the same state of healing and

00:47:06.909 --> 00:47:09.010
recovery that we're talking about that results

00:47:09.010 --> 00:47:12.090
in those performance boosts later and consistently

00:47:12.090 --> 00:47:15.840
down the road. Well, let's expand on that. You

00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.639
brought Apollo to not only IHMC when we did the

00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:20.800
Blue Sky, but also you did a talk here in Ocala

00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.820
a few weeks ago, and I got to use it again for

00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:27.280
a moment. What even sent you down the road of

00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.519
the science behind that? And then talk to me

00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:31.440
about the product and let's elaborate on the

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:34.599
applications for the people listening. Sure.

00:47:35.019 --> 00:47:38.079
Well, it's very relevant because as a psychiatrist

00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:41.579
and researcher, I was working with patients who

00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:45.059
were primarily PTSD survivors. and most of them

00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:48.219
were traumatized military veterans or women with

00:47:48.219 --> 00:47:52.159
sexual trauma or burnt out first responders and

00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:55.380
people of that nature. And we were throwing from

00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:57.719
the Western psychiatry approach, we were throwing

00:47:57.719 --> 00:47:59.539
the kitchen sink at these people. Like we were

00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:01.360
doing everything we could. They'd done multiple

00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:03.699
medication trials, multiple therapy trials. Most

00:48:03.699 --> 00:48:05.280
of these people were not getting better. Like

00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:07.639
they were still heavily symptomatic long -term.

00:48:07.900 --> 00:48:09.940
And some of them, when they, by the time I saw

00:48:09.940 --> 00:48:12.000
them, which was like, several doctors down the

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.500
road have been taking like five to 15 different

00:48:14.500 --> 00:48:19.039
medications and still not experiencing any consistent

00:48:19.039 --> 00:48:22.519
relief. And that was just really surprising to

00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:26.400
me that we were seeing so much of that. And as

00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:29.519
I started to see more of it in my clinic, I started

00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:32.019
talking to my colleagues and they were seeing

00:48:32.019 --> 00:48:33.519
the same thing. And then I started looking at

00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.079
the research and other doctors were publishing

00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:40.139
that PTSD especially PTSD with adverse childhood

00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:44.679
events, is much harder to treat, tends to be

00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:48.019
much more resistant to treatment than other forms

00:48:48.019 --> 00:48:50.460
of mental illness, and that most people who ever

00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:52.500
get treated with all the treatments don't get

00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:55.039
better. So I thought, well, this is a ripe area

00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.179
for discovery. If only 30 % of people are getting

00:49:00.179 --> 00:49:02.519
better and 70 % are still sick after being diagnosed

00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:06.030
with PTSD, like we have a huge amount of improvement

00:49:06.030 --> 00:49:09.750
we can make in this area so started with my patients

00:49:09.750 --> 00:49:12.269
and the patients just didn't respond to treatment

00:49:12.269 --> 00:49:16.230
and then as i started to learn more from these

00:49:16.230 --> 00:49:18.070
people by talking to them you know we're talking

00:49:18.070 --> 00:49:21.079
like hundreds, thousands of people over the years

00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:23.619
just continually asking about their feelings

00:49:23.619 --> 00:49:24.800
and what they're going through and what they're

00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:26.280
struggling with and how they're coping with it

00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.199
and what's working and what's not working and

00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:29.980
what makes it worse and et cetera, all the things

00:49:29.980 --> 00:49:31.699
that we ask about in a mental health interview,

00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:33.820
you start to get really well acquainted with

00:49:33.820 --> 00:49:35.719
a traumatized consciousness and you really start

00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:38.380
to see not only the similarities between people,

00:49:38.500 --> 00:49:41.539
but also the similarities between these people

00:49:41.539 --> 00:49:43.639
who I'm working with as my patients and myself

00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:46.920
and how I deal with trauma and stress myself.

00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:52.340
I started to realize that PTSD is a learned fear

00:49:52.340 --> 00:49:54.719
response, right? Like we don't talk about it.

00:49:54.739 --> 00:49:56.800
We talk about it like that, but not quite all

00:49:56.800 --> 00:49:59.099
the way like that. But it's like BF Skinner,

00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:02.159
right? It's like learned fear with rats in the

00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:04.960
cage with the button. And you can train a rat

00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.179
to fear food if you associate it with something

00:50:08.179 --> 00:50:11.659
that makes food unpleasant, right? And then it

00:50:11.659 --> 00:50:13.940
will die of starvation. Like that's really interesting.

00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:18.079
So we actually do that same fear learning. to

00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:19.800
ourselves and we have that experience in the

00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:25.199
world and uh if and that's what results in eventually

00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:27.400
for many people a diagnosis of mental illness

00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:30.579
i think the real question is well then if we

00:50:30.579 --> 00:50:34.699
need to rethink this uh disorder of ptsd to start

00:50:34.699 --> 00:50:37.760
as fear learning then how do you fix fear learning

00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:41.900
in animals you relearn safety and it works and

00:50:41.900 --> 00:50:44.280
you extinguish the fear Like, well, isn't that

00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:46.059
what it says about humans? Of course, it does

00:50:46.059 --> 00:50:48.239
say that about humans, that you just have to

00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.179
relearn safety. And that's how our psychotherapies

00:50:50.179 --> 00:50:52.360
work. So as I'm starting to see this, I thought,

00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:55.320
well, okay, there is an opportunity here to look

00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:57.219
at, well, what are the biological correlates

00:50:57.219 --> 00:51:00.179
of fear and safety in the body? The neurobiological

00:51:00.179 --> 00:51:01.960
correlates are the fight or flight sympathetic

00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:04.619
nervous system responds to fear and puts us in

00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:06.760
a survival state when we're afraid, when we could

00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:10.559
die. And then the parasympathetic. rest and digest

00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:12.639
nervous system in response to safety and they're

00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:15.239
separate and they split resources between fear

00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:17.539
response and safety response safety's recovery

00:51:17.539 --> 00:51:21.840
digestion immunity uh reproduction metabolism

00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:23.960
sleep all the good stuff we want to happen most

00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:26.539
of the time fear the you know sympathetic and

00:51:26.539 --> 00:51:28.099
the fear response is what we want to happen when

00:51:28.099 --> 00:51:32.000
we're running from an immediate threat so that

00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.559
seeing those patterns i started to realize well

00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.980
what if we just gave the, if you do safety practices,

00:51:38.099 --> 00:51:40.059
does that help with PTSD symptoms? If you do

00:51:40.059 --> 00:51:41.739
the deep breathing, the meditation, yoga, mindfulness,

00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.719
massage, service animals, yes, in fact, it all

00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.980
does. How does it work? And MDMA therapy too.

00:51:48.059 --> 00:51:50.119
And I looked at all these techniques. I mapped

00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:52.880
out the nervous system pathway to get from the

00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:55.400
technique to the brain and i found that they

00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:57.699
all activate the emotional cortex in the brain

00:51:57.699 --> 00:52:01.480
that is response to safety so how do we send

00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:03.579
more safety to the body like can we use technology

00:52:03.579 --> 00:52:05.739
for people who don't have service animals and

00:52:05.739 --> 00:52:08.000
don't have other people around to help and don't

00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:10.019
know these techniques can we make a technology

00:52:10.019 --> 00:52:13.380
for our traumatized veterans and first responders

00:52:13.380 --> 00:52:16.510
that can actually Give them more of that safety

00:52:16.510 --> 00:52:18.929
input on the go. Will that accelerate recovery

00:52:18.929 --> 00:52:21.469
from PTSD symptoms and also just performance

00:52:21.469 --> 00:52:23.489
in general life and day -to -day life and sleep?

00:52:23.650 --> 00:52:27.610
And it turned out that it did. And so that technology

00:52:27.610 --> 00:52:31.670
became Apollo. And we discovered it between 2014

00:52:31.670 --> 00:52:33.590
and 2016 at the University of Pittsburgh Medical

00:52:33.590 --> 00:52:36.469
Center. And it just sends soothing vibrations,

00:52:36.590 --> 00:52:38.690
like gentle sound wave vibrations that you can

00:52:38.690 --> 00:52:41.309
feel noticeably that feel kind of like an ocean

00:52:41.309 --> 00:52:43.780
wave kind of. crashing up and down very slowly

00:52:43.780 --> 00:52:47.099
or like a cat purring on your chest and um you

00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:49.139
can wear it anywhere on your body and it sends

00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:51.980
these vibrations to the body that in that uh

00:52:51.980 --> 00:52:54.559
turn the vagus nerve activity up or down depending

00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:59.380
on how fatigued or or stressed or um what state

00:52:59.380 --> 00:53:01.480
you're in and what state you want to go to and

00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:04.400
you can use it all the time as much as you want

00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:06.880
and and it really actually is helping people

00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:10.000
with ptsd which is really exciting So what are

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:12.119
you seeing then as far as the efficacy from its

00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:16.239
inception to what you're witnessing now, 10 plus

00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:20.619
years later? So we have, since that time, we've

00:53:20.619 --> 00:53:23.579
completed 17 clinical studies across over 2000

00:53:23.579 --> 00:53:26.599
subjects, most of which have been completed at

00:53:26.599 --> 00:53:30.119
independent universities. we just send them product

00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:32.599
and technology and they test it in their patient

00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:35.260
populations or their healthy populations or first

00:53:35.260 --> 00:53:37.900
responders and i think the most interesting consistent

00:53:37.900 --> 00:53:42.780
things we see are that using apollo within minutes

00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:45.559
as little as two to three minutes has a noticeable

00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:48.960
change on the body and that's really interesting

00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:51.239
because like the body and by mean body i mean

00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:53.719
like your heart rate your heart rate variability

00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:55.400
and your breath rate and your blood pressure

00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:57.599
you can notice a change in as little as two to

00:53:57.599 --> 00:53:59.820
three minutes of just feeling the apollo vibration

00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:03.360
on your body and that's really interesting because

00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:05.800
that's how long it takes deep breathing to work

00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:07.280
and that's how long it takes soothing touch to

00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.320
work and apollo is a combination of deep breathing

00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:11.420
and soothing touch so it's working in the same

00:54:11.420 --> 00:54:13.940
time scale as measured in a double blind randomized

00:54:13.940 --> 00:54:17.780
placebo controlled trial in a very very rigorous

00:54:17.780 --> 00:54:21.000
university lab that this is working in the same

00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:23.880
time scale two to three minutes as deep breathing

00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:27.139
in and soothing touch which are its origins scientifically

00:54:27.139 --> 00:54:30.480
so that's really interesting from there we started

00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:33.360
to do trials in regular populations of people

00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:36.739
and and ill populations of people and we saw

00:54:36.739 --> 00:54:39.059
i think consistently what's most interesting

00:54:39.059 --> 00:54:40.739
across the board whether you're looking at folks

00:54:40.739 --> 00:54:42.840
with ptsd whether we're looking at folks with

00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:47.159
depression symptoms with anxiety with uh metastatic

00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:49.820
breast cancer or terminal cancer diagnoses or

00:54:49.820 --> 00:54:52.079
people with severe terminal autoimmune diseases

00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:55.590
is that There's an improvement in a core set

00:54:55.590 --> 00:54:59.530
of symptoms and metrics that are all autonomic

00:54:59.530 --> 00:55:06.389
-related components. And so these are sleep improves

00:55:06.389 --> 00:55:10.250
statistically and clinically significantly between,

00:55:10.329 --> 00:55:12.989
depending on who you are, like 30 to 45 minutes

00:55:12.989 --> 00:55:17.409
a night. We see deep and REM sleep improve. We

00:55:17.409 --> 00:55:21.550
see heart rate and resting heart rate go down.

00:55:22.030 --> 00:55:26.030
Blood pressure goes down. HRV, heart rate variability,

00:55:26.250 --> 00:55:27.670
the sign that the vagus nerve is being activated,

00:55:27.789 --> 00:55:32.849
goes up. And fatigue, which can be a measure

00:55:32.849 --> 00:55:34.250
of lots of different things that happen in the

00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:36.550
body when you're overly stressed out, fatigue

00:55:36.550 --> 00:55:39.329
goes way down across all of these populations.

00:55:39.730 --> 00:55:44.269
The PTSD groups, the autoimmune groups, the cancer

00:55:44.269 --> 00:55:48.860
pain groups, pain perception is altered. people

00:55:48.860 --> 00:55:50.719
are still experiencing pain, but they're not

00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:52.639
experiencing quite as much pain. And the more

00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:55.579
they use Apollo, the less pain that they experience.

00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:59.840
And we are seeing borderline statistical significance

00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:02.039
there. All the other metrics I just mentioned

00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:05.079
are profoundly statistically significant. Like

00:56:05.079 --> 00:56:08.099
P is less than 0 .001. So that's really exciting.

00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:11.059
So that means that there's like no chance that

00:56:11.059 --> 00:56:14.019
this data happened by chance, particularly now

00:56:14.019 --> 00:56:15.639
that it's been replicated across multiple different

00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:24.050
study sites. So that's kind of the gamut of the

00:56:24.050 --> 00:56:26.449
kinds of improvements we're seeing. But I think

00:56:26.449 --> 00:56:29.030
the three things that are the most relevant to

00:56:29.030 --> 00:56:32.289
first responders are, number one, the benefits

00:56:32.289 --> 00:56:36.690
of this happen in as little as one night. That

00:56:36.690 --> 00:56:39.929
is amazing. There is so little that we have that

00:56:39.929 --> 00:56:41.809
doesn't have side effects that works that quickly.

00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:44.570
So you can see benefits from Apollo, especially

00:56:44.570 --> 00:56:46.920
if you have a first responder. what we'll call

00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:49.760
a irregular sleep schedule, you could see benefits

00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:55.900
in as little as one night. And I think that that

00:56:55.900 --> 00:56:59.840
is something that makes this very accessible

00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:04.860
and interesting to people as a way to just be

00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:07.940
able to gain control over your sleep rhythms

00:57:07.940 --> 00:57:11.719
and your day -to -day recovery, which is really,

00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:13.619
as you've been alluding to, centered around sleep.

00:57:15.259 --> 00:57:17.940
Absolutely. Yeah. Your technology and New Calm

00:57:17.940 --> 00:57:19.739
is another one I think is phenomenal. When we

00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.559
get these work weeks to where they're healthy

00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:24.460
and then we teach people all these tools to get

00:57:24.460 --> 00:57:26.619
the most out of their rest days as well. I mean,

00:57:26.659 --> 00:57:28.559
you know, we would revolutionize health in my

00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:31.219
profession. There's no question. One more area

00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:32.559
because I know we've only got a few minutes left.

00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:35.880
I've had Jonathan Edwards on talking about ketamine

00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:38.719
and Catherine Walker as well. Dr. Ben Sess has

00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:40.480
been on a couple of times talking about MDMA

00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:44.119
and psychotherapy with that. I've talked about

00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:47.260
Ibogaine, Ayahuasca, all these different ones.

00:57:48.179 --> 00:57:51.000
Which is some of the psychedelic side that's

00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:56.239
exciting you the most? I mean, I think it's like

00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:59.099
the whole thing, right? I think one of the things

00:57:59.099 --> 00:58:02.070
that I teach about that a lot of other people

00:58:02.070 --> 00:58:05.730
don't teach about for whatever reason is what

00:58:05.730 --> 00:58:09.869
what what is the common mechanism of how psychedelic

00:58:09.869 --> 00:58:11.750
medicines when combined with therapy facilitate

00:58:11.750 --> 00:58:19.070
healing and access to transformation right what

00:58:19.070 --> 00:58:22.469
is the common ground regardless of whether it's

00:58:22.469 --> 00:58:25.250
ketamine or mdma or ayahuasca or psilocybin or

00:58:25.250 --> 00:58:31.659
lsd what do they have in common and What's interesting

00:58:31.659 --> 00:58:33.800
is they actually have, when we think about it

00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:35.559
from that perspective, quite a lot in common.

00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:38.179
And then when we separate them all by molecular

00:58:38.179 --> 00:58:41.019
structure and try to focus on how are these molecularly

00:58:41.019 --> 00:58:44.039
working and try to ground up, understand the

00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:46.500
mechanism, it's not as interesting as understanding

00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:49.280
phenomenologically what happens when you take

00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:51.360
these different medicines. Starting out with

00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:54.119
the fact that ayahuasca, one of the oldest known

00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:59.139
psychedelic brews that's still used by indigenous

00:58:59.139 --> 00:59:03.159
cultures. was originally, when we asked, we went

00:59:03.159 --> 00:59:07.480
down to Peru to talk to one of the oldest Shipibo

00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:11.260
tribes and talk to the shamans and understand

00:59:11.260 --> 00:59:15.360
from them what they were using ayahuasca for

00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:17.980
and how they used it in their own language. And

00:59:17.980 --> 00:59:20.579
the single word answer when I asked him, what

00:59:20.579 --> 00:59:23.119
are you using this for? What do you use ayahuasca

00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:29.300
for? Single word answer, trauma. To them, trauma

00:59:29.300 --> 00:59:36.559
means the energetic blockages that prevent our

00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:39.400
energy from flowing freely, from our human essence,

00:59:39.500 --> 00:59:48.780
from being free. As they see it, they're using

00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:51.039
and working with that medicine, and there's a

00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:53.280
whole lot more to it than this, but in the medicinal

00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:57.980
sense, it's to help process trauma. help the

00:59:57.980 --> 01:00:00.019
individual process their trauma and resolve it

01:00:00.019 --> 01:00:03.079
to grow into a more resilient, higher version

01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:06.000
of themselves. Fast forward to today with MDMA

01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:08.219
and ketamine therapy and psilocybin therapy,

01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:13.980
we are using the same techniques with a modern

01:00:13.980 --> 01:00:16.880
Western adaptation to treat trauma. It's not

01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:18.659
with a shaman. It's with a doctor or somebody

01:00:18.659 --> 01:00:22.619
like me, with therapist, colleague, and we create

01:00:22.619 --> 01:00:25.889
a foundation of trust. to guide you into your

01:00:25.889 --> 01:00:29.570
subconscious, unconscious material in a setting

01:00:29.570 --> 01:00:31.489
where you feel safe enough to allow whatever

01:00:31.489 --> 01:00:38.130
comes up, come up and work with it. And as people

01:00:38.130 --> 01:00:40.690
start to notice that they start to become more

01:00:40.690 --> 01:00:43.690
accepting of what happened and release fault

01:00:43.690 --> 01:00:47.389
and let go of past regrets and all that kind

01:00:47.389 --> 01:00:51.030
of thing, they feel more free to be themselves.

01:00:51.250 --> 01:00:53.349
They feel more free in general. Right. So like

01:00:53.349 --> 01:00:56.409
we're doing the same stuff. And what's even more

01:00:56.409 --> 01:01:01.130
interesting to me is that the effect of psychedelic

01:01:01.130 --> 01:01:04.030
medicines, when you look at the is like what

01:01:04.030 --> 01:01:08.789
what do these represent in the path of the evolution

01:01:08.789 --> 01:01:13.269
of modern medicine? Right. Because we've been

01:01:13.269 --> 01:01:15.010
treating, as I mentioned, the beginning of this

01:01:15.010 --> 01:01:16.550
interview, we've been treating mental illness.

01:01:17.019 --> 01:01:19.039
the same way for the last 50 years and before

01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:21.139
that it was just psychotherapy basically no drugs

01:01:21.139 --> 01:01:23.320
then it was just drugs and basically no psychotherapy

01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:28.139
for the next 50 years now we have a combination

01:01:28.139 --> 01:01:30.139
of all this stuff happening and we have psychedelic

01:01:30.139 --> 01:01:32.980
medicine entering the scene and psychedelic medicines

01:01:32.980 --> 01:01:35.980
unlike our traditional western pharmaceuticals

01:01:35.980 --> 01:01:39.099
for mental health you don't take every day you

01:01:39.099 --> 01:01:44.630
take to read anywhere from one to six or one

01:01:44.630 --> 01:01:47.550
to 12 doses a year, depending on the drug, with

01:01:47.550 --> 01:01:49.710
intensive psychotherapy accompanying it and in

01:01:49.710 --> 01:01:52.250
between, and you get to long -term remission.

01:01:52.449 --> 01:01:55.269
And in the MDMA trials with severe PTSD, you

01:01:55.269 --> 01:01:57.489
get to long -term remission from just three doses

01:01:57.489 --> 01:02:00.789
and 42 hours of therapy that gets even better

01:02:00.789 --> 01:02:02.469
when you're out without additional treatment.

01:02:02.849 --> 01:02:09.650
So I think that is nothing to scoff at. We don't

01:02:09.650 --> 01:02:12.750
see that kind of improvement in mental illness

01:02:12.750 --> 01:02:17.730
with any modern treatment or any past treatment

01:02:17.730 --> 01:02:22.070
ever. The only way to go find something as a

01:02:22.070 --> 01:02:25.349
medication or treatment that works in that way

01:02:25.349 --> 01:02:28.170
where you treat somebody over one to 12 weeks

01:02:28.170 --> 01:02:30.809
and then they get better and then they get after

01:02:30.809 --> 01:02:32.449
and then they get even better one year later.

01:02:32.610 --> 01:02:35.110
The only kinds of things that are drugs that

01:02:35.110 --> 01:02:39.550
work like that are antibiotics. right? Antifungals,

01:02:39.550 --> 01:02:42.550
things of that nature. And similarly, you also

01:02:42.550 --> 01:02:44.070
have to use those for one to 12 weeks, depending

01:02:44.070 --> 01:02:47.110
on how bad your infection is, right? And you

01:02:47.110 --> 01:02:49.090
also have to do aftercare, and you also have

01:02:49.090 --> 01:02:50.969
to protect the wound or wherever the infection

01:02:50.969 --> 01:02:52.309
is, right? You have to take care of yourself

01:02:52.309 --> 01:02:55.349
or the infection won't go away. And the antibiotics

01:02:55.349 --> 01:02:59.530
work by helping weaken the bacteria so that your

01:02:59.530 --> 01:03:02.269
body is more able to easily fight it and kill

01:03:02.269 --> 01:03:04.610
it. They don't actually kill the bacteria for

01:03:04.610 --> 01:03:06.849
us. They just weaken it so that our body can

01:03:06.849 --> 01:03:10.469
kill it. What do psychedelics do? They weaken

01:03:10.469 --> 01:03:15.010
the meaning around trauma, traumatic events,

01:03:15.190 --> 01:03:18.269
right? They loosen the association of there must

01:03:18.269 --> 01:03:19.969
be something wrong with me because this happened.

01:03:20.030 --> 01:03:25.309
It weakens the power that we've given to that

01:03:25.309 --> 01:03:27.329
past traumatic event that's happening. The past

01:03:27.329 --> 01:03:29.130
traumatic event is still what happened. It's

01:03:29.130 --> 01:03:31.719
still the same. What's different is that now

01:03:31.719 --> 01:03:35.380
we're able to process it and digest it more easily

01:03:35.380 --> 01:03:37.679
and break it down and then spit it out the other

01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:41.599
side because it doesn't seem so scary. Does that

01:03:41.599 --> 01:03:43.920
make sense? No, it does completely. I think this

01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:47.539
is the creation of this podcast initially is

01:03:47.539 --> 01:03:50.420
there are so many solutions now. There just are.

01:03:50.500 --> 01:03:52.199
There's a lot of stigma around some of them.

01:03:52.219 --> 01:03:56.289
There's just misinformation. You know, smacks

01:03:56.289 --> 01:03:58.849
against what we thought was illegal or immoral

01:03:58.849 --> 01:04:01.070
in the past. But now it's just the storytelling,

01:04:01.190 --> 01:04:02.829
getting people to understand that, you know,

01:04:02.849 --> 01:04:06.929
how important sleep is and the rest and recovery

01:04:06.929 --> 01:04:08.889
between shift work, if that's what you do. And

01:04:08.889 --> 01:04:10.949
then using psychedelics if you're not able to

01:04:10.949 --> 01:04:13.630
access trauma and finding forgiveness. And then,

01:04:13.670 --> 01:04:15.829
you know, CBD and it just the list goes on and

01:04:15.829 --> 01:04:17.250
on and on. And then obviously the technology,

01:04:17.369 --> 01:04:20.750
you know, Apollo Neuro and New Calm and some

01:04:20.750 --> 01:04:22.550
of these other incredible technologies that we're

01:04:22.550 --> 01:04:25.849
using modern, you know. modern tech now to address

01:04:25.849 --> 01:04:28.670
age -old solutions as well so i know we've come

01:04:28.670 --> 01:04:30.809
at the end of the hour for people listening then

01:04:30.809 --> 01:04:33.429
where can they find apollo and then where are

01:04:33.429 --> 01:04:35.489
other places they can learn more about you and

01:04:35.489 --> 01:04:38.429
reach out thank you again for having me and i

01:04:38.429 --> 01:04:41.869
think just to put the closure on this any between

01:04:41.869 --> 01:04:44.190
to answer your question in full between technology

01:04:44.190 --> 01:04:46.170
and psychedelics i would say in the next five

01:04:46.170 --> 01:04:50.769
to ten years we will if we focus on what i was

01:04:50.769 --> 01:04:54.340
just talking about we will start to see actual

01:04:54.340 --> 01:04:56.420
cures for mental illness emerge in the next five

01:04:56.420 --> 01:04:59.719
to 10 years. We're that close, but we have to

01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:02.480
focus on developing and studying effectively

01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:05.340
and disseminating the technology and the psychedelic

01:05:05.340 --> 01:05:07.500
medicine approaches thoughtfully, respectfully,

01:05:07.940 --> 01:05:13.619
properly. It can't just spread it all out there

01:05:13.619 --> 01:05:15.840
with no regulation, no guidance. It has to be

01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:17.699
delivered correctly to get the outcome. It has

01:05:17.699 --> 01:05:19.960
to be used correctly to get the outcome that

01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:22.610
we're talking about. But I think that's the exciting

01:05:22.610 --> 01:05:25.469
light at the end of the tunnel. That's the shining

01:05:25.469 --> 01:05:29.090
star, right? Is getting to a time where we can

01:05:29.090 --> 01:05:31.550
actually start curing mental illnesses like PTSD,

01:05:31.730 --> 01:05:35.449
depression, anxiety, and maybe many others. And

01:05:35.449 --> 01:05:39.599
we're not that far away. Again, thank you so

01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:42.119
much for having me. This is such an exciting

01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:44.860
topic to talk about. If anybody wants to come

01:05:44.860 --> 01:05:48.619
find me, you can find Apollo at apolloneuro .com.

01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:52.559
That's A -P -O -L -L -O -N -E -U -R -O .com.

01:05:52.780 --> 01:05:55.500
If you can't remember that, you can go to wearablehugs

01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:59.559
.com, which is what the kids call it. And if

01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:01.360
you have an iPhone and you want to try Apollo

01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:03.320
for free, you can just download the Apollo Neuro

01:06:03.320 --> 01:06:06.159
app to your iPhone. Apollo Wearable works with

01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:08.690
all platforms, but... We have a free version

01:06:08.690 --> 01:06:10.909
that you can try on iPhone now. So if you have

01:06:10.909 --> 01:06:12.469
an iPhone, try it out. Just download the Apollo

01:06:12.469 --> 01:06:15.730
Neuro app from the App Store. And then if you

01:06:15.730 --> 01:06:21.929
want to come find me, I am at drdave .io. And

01:06:21.929 --> 01:06:24.190
you can find my clinic and all of the work that

01:06:24.190 --> 01:06:27.269
I do and my podcasts that I work on, which are

01:06:27.269 --> 01:06:29.809
The Psychedelic Report, which comes out every

01:06:29.809 --> 01:06:34.170
couple weeks on Spotify and Apple, and also Your

01:06:34.170 --> 01:06:35.889
Brain Explained, which is a consciousness show.

01:06:36.610 --> 01:06:38.670
about how your brain works, which also comes

01:06:38.670 --> 01:06:40.389
out about quarterly on Apple and Spotify.