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episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast,
or go to carnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name
is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome on the show, leadership development
professional and the founder of MLS Consulting,
Marcy Levy -Shankman. Now, in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from our educational
journey into the world of philanthropy, leadership
in higher education, the fiscal benefits of investing
in your people, false economy in the first responder
professions, moral courage, revolutionizing the
American education system, the importance of
refinding our why, and so much more. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment, go
to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you...
Marcy Levy Shankman. Enjoy. Well, Marcy, I want
to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank
you to our mutual friend, Rick Rochelle, for
making this introduction. And secondly, I want
to welcome you today onto the Behind the Shield
podcast. Thank you. I'm really excited to be
here. And I was thinking the same about grateful
for Rick making the connection. Yeah, it's amazing
how many incredible humans you get to interact
with once you start interacting with incredible
humans. Absolutely. I've often said when I make
introductions between two people who I'm lucky
enough to know that good people should know good
people. And when you start introducing and getting
to know good people, it just has a multiplier
effect. Absolutely. Well, very first question,
where on planet Earth are we finding you today?
So I am in my home office in Shaker Heights,
Ohio, which is in the middle west of the United
States. We border on Pennsylvania, and a lot
of people don't realize that Ohio, while being
a Midwestern state, has some inkling towards
the East Coast, although it is very much a urban
-ish area where I am, because I'm just outside
of Cleveland. For the most part, Ohio is more
known for farmland. My wife is originally from
North Canton, so not far from you. You're kidding.
That's ironic. Fantastic. Yes, North Canton's
about an hour if I were to go door to door. One
of the interesting things, and you obviously
talk about Pennsylvania, we think of the Pennsylvania
Dutch. Talk to me about the Amish population
around you, because it's a group of Americans
that we really don't hear much about, but obviously
you're surrounded by them. So they are a very
interesting segment of the United States population.
I actually also grew up with them around the
central Illinois region where I grew up. And
I actually have more familiarity with the Amish
in Illinois than I do the Pennsylvania Dutch.
They are a very traditional community that is
anchored in a set of very strongly held beliefs
and values. They are incredibly self -sufficient.
There's actually an Amish community in western
New York that's not far from here that we have
some opportunities to engage with. And the Amish
are traditionally aligned with some... basic
practices of self -sufficiency, like they don't
utilize electricity and they are very focused
on farming and using their hands. So craftsmanship
and cheesemaking, for instance, is something
that you can count on from the Amish community.
So here in Ohio, the community is very well known
for making beautiful furniture. And so if you
want high quality furniture made from wood, then
you're going to look for an Amish carpenter.
And they're pretty segmented, you know, isolated,
exclusive community. So there tends not to be
a lot of social interaction between the Amish
and those who are not Amish. And that causes
some interesting friction in those geographies.
In what way? Well, I think that there is a value
placed on a certain lifestyle for the Amish that
is not consistent with modernity. So the use
of technology, the... awareness of others, the
inclusion of different lifestyles. The Amish
are very comfortable with their way of life and
their way of being and really set up walls. So
when they are your neighbors, I think that creates
some difficulty, even in some very basic terms.
So if you're driving your automobile on the country
highways, you know you're an Amish community
when there's a horse and buggy. on the street.
And so those are pretty narrow roads. And now
you're having to share the road. And in Ohio
and Pennsylvania and central Illinois, when we
have wicked weather in the winter, it becomes
kind of complicated and actually quite dangerous.
So that's a really basic, small example. But
I think you see some social challenges when a
family maybe encounters a health challenge and
their use of modern medicine and so there are
practitioners of medicine who are saying we could
help you and there's a resistance or actual rejection
of that and so that can cause some interesting
social challenges as well it's funny because
as It's a double edged sword on both sides of
that fence, because if you look at the preventative
medicine side, the way that the Amish live actually
is the medicine we need to be listening to. But
like you said, if you're talking about cutting
edge technology and trauma medicine, for example,
then, yeah, I'm sure the modern medicine has
a lot of value. Right, right. Well, and I grew
up where we often had. the Amish carpenter coming
in and doing work for us in the house. And I
remember just being so appreciative of the work
ethic and diligence of high quality craftsmanship.
And I think I absorbed some lessons around what
does it mean to be expert in something? Because
here was this expert in carpentry and workmanship.
And that was a tradition that's passed down from
generation to generation. And so I haven't really
thought about this for years now, but as a young
person growing up Jewish in a community that
didn't have a very large Jewish community, some
of those values I saw consistent with how I was
being raised in a Jewish home. And so it's interesting
also to think about the diversity in our... population
and how different communities may appear very
different on the outside and yet when you get
to know them you realize fundamentally at a values
level they're very similar i think that's the
problem can be simple yeah i mean that's the
problem with modern society i feel is there has
been such uh Over -emphasis on pigeonholes and
labels and genders and religions and skin colors
and et cetera, et cetera, that we're missing
the majority of what's most important, which
is a shared humanity and the celebration of our
differences. Yes, I would agree that there's
been an over -indexing on difference and an undervaluing
of commonalities. Going back to the Amish, did
you ever see the video that was going around?
It was going around social media, so I don't
know if it's come across your radar or not, but
it was a Tesla behind someone on a horse and
cart in an Amish family. And the Tesla was trying
to figure out on his little screen what it was,
and it kept flashing to all these vehicles, but
it was lost. It was completely lost. He couldn't
find it. No, I haven't seen that, but I would
find a good laugh out of that one. Well, a couple
of things I think that really struck me about.
that level of community. Firstly, when you see
them building a barn and then they all get together
and carry that barn, that is phenomenal. But
more recently, I forget which of the storms it
was, but some of the storms that affected that
area, whilst governing bodies were still trying
to figure out who was responsible and pointing
fingers at each other, there were a lot of Amish
communities that went in and just started building
homes for these people that lost theirs, which
I thought was beautiful. Yes. Yes. That emphasis
on we over me, I think, is very strongly held
and demonstrated in those concrete ways. Absolutely.
All right. Well, you mentioned Illinois. Let's
start at the very beginning of your journey then.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your parents and your family
dynamic. OK, so I was born in Ithaca, New York.
My father was on the staff and faculty of Cornell
University. And we moved at the ripe old age
of one month old to Champaign, Illinois, because
he was hired by the University of Illinois. So
I grew up in the Twin Cities, known as Champaign
-Urbana, otherwise known by those of us who were
townies as Shampoo Banana. which probably none
of your listeners have ever heard of. I have.
But growing up in Champaign was incredible. So
as a child of the 70s, we had the neighborhood
where you would go out in the morning as a little
person and at some point you would go home. certainly
to be fed, but perhaps it was to someone else's
home for lunch and then someone else would come
to your home for dinner. I actually have very
fond memories of knowing it was time to go home
when I heard the dinner bell ring and my mom
literally would step outside and ring a bell
manually and you could hear it for blocks. And
I think that, you know, this started playing
out. When I was seven, maybe. So I had a lot
of freedom as a child and was very close to a
neighbor who was the youngest of six. And we
were just talking about this over indexing on
difference as opposed to valuing commonality.
So he grew up youngest of six Catholic family,
hardworking. His dad owned his own business.
I'm one. house away. I grew up the youngest of
two. My dad's highly educated. My mom is highly
educated. We're affiliated with the university.
We're Jewish. And we could not be separated.
And so he and I were pretty inseparable from
almost literally getting our diapers changed
together through high school. And to this day,
I still consider him one of my closest friends.
We were Always running around when we were little,
we were really forming our ideas about the world
and knowing ourselves and how do we relate to
one another through each other's eyes as well
as through our own. So when I think about best
friends and the value that a best friend holds.
I used to always say he was the brother that
I wasn't born with. I actually have an older
brother who is three years older than me. And
he and I were not close growing up. We weren't
antagonistic towards each other. We just weren't
very close. We have become much closer and we
did become much closer towards the end of my
high school career. He was in university. And
so there was a healthy distance, I think, at
that point that allowed us to see the value in
one another. But I grew up Running around outside,
being very active in whatever sport I could be
in. I was very much a tomboy and can actually
remember a conversation with my parents at one
point, like, why am I a girl? I literally can.
remember saying that out loud because I wanted
to be one of the boys. So I was one of the boys
for many, many years playing tackle football
until it was pointed out to me that I would actually
get really hurt if I kept playing tackle football.
So I was more interested in playing baseball,
but then I had to stop playing baseball because
at that time, girls didn't play baseball past
a certain age. So that's when I switched to fast
pitch softball, which actually became the core.
of my identity in middle school high school and
in fact I had dreams and plans of playing fast
pitch women's softball in college ended up falling
in love with an institution that didn't have
the sport so I chose everything else over the
athletic identity which was a huge turning point
in my life but as I said also raised in a very
strongly identified Jewish home And that was
an experience that was quite interesting because
we were in the minority. So I went to a high
school of about 1 ,200 kids, and I think there
were four other Jewish kids in my class. So there
was a class of about 300 kids, and I was one
of four Jews. And I always was raised to be proud
of being Jewish. So I learned early on about
how do you navigate difference. And not have
it be something that separates. Instead, have
it be something that brings us together. So I
can remember with my best friend going to his
house and decorating his Christmas tree. He would
come over to our house and he would celebrate
one of the nights of Hanukkah with us. And we
always had the eternal argument of every December.
Is it better to get all your presents at once
or is it better to get it spread across eight
days? I don't know that we ever resolved that
argument. You got to have a Jewish parent and
a Christian parent and you can get both. And
then you get both. Exactly. So I think what I
would say about my childhood was I was raised
in a family that supported individuality and
fostering a space of learning and growth. Those
are words I use now. At the time, I just knew
that I was loved and I was cared for and that
I had this incredible community where families
looked after their kids and other kids. There
was a high value placed on taking care of each
other, on supporting each other and on. hard
work. We grew up in central Illinois. There's
not a whole lot that's happening outside of the
community. And what is happening is reflective
of hardworking people. And so while I come from
this highly educated family that prioritized
always getting an education, there was no question
in my mind that I would not only get a college
degree, but I would get an advanced degree. I
was with kids and really good friends who came
from very different backgrounds, whether they
came from a farming background or whether they
came from what I would call a more blue -collar
background. There was this commitment to you
do you and we belong here together. And I realize
now what a privilege that was, because clearly
that's not what everyone's experience was growing
up. And it took going to college when I left
central Illinois to discover, oh, this is not
typical. Some might say even that's not normal.
But for me, it was very much the norm. I've said
this many times. If you look at the. Common denominator
in most of the holy books of different religions.
Ultimately, you can sum it up with don't be a
dick, pretty much. Kindness, compassion, community,
empathy, service. When you hear so many stories,
I was a boy, John, that I used to be my neighbor
when we go on holiday for a week in England every
year. And he was black and I was white and still
am white. And, you know, we just saw each other
as playmates. It was awesome. So when you reflect
again on these commonalities, there's so many
things that bind us together. We truly don't
see these differences when we're young. What,
through your eyes, are these contributing factors
that take these, you know, arguably blank canvases
of young boys and girls with, you know, I would
argue, love and compassion in their hearts predominantly
and create such division as we progress through
our years? Oh, I've thought about this so much.
And in fact, I would argue some of what I studied
in college was focused on my curiosity as to
why does this happen? You know, why do we not
have peace? Why do we have antagonism? Why do
we have this emphasis on difference? I think
a lot of it has to do with what happens when
you become a grown up. You know, I think there
are pressures on adult living that cause people
to retrench to that which is common to them or
that which is comfortable to them. I think human
nature, there is something in our DNA that gets
at this. It takes a lot more effort to be together
than it does to be apart. You can see this in
primatology where, yes, there's a communitarian
spirit until there's stress. And when there's
stress on the individual or stress on the system,
people cling to what is safest for them. And
that's that group of people who are closest to
you. So it's family and it's the immediate surroundings.
I think there are tremendous social pressures,
especially today, that are coming from a broader
spectrum, even than what I grew up with, because
of media. And its impact on us and social media
and its impact on us. I don't think it's all
evil. I do think, though, there's a greater exposure
to negativity. And we know from actually. some
of the research that's being done in neuroscience,
that there is greater power in negative emotions
impacting the way we believe and think and feel
than positive emotions. And so I think there's
a little bit of nature that we're fighting against,
and there's a lot of nurture that we're fighting
against. Because I think you can look at human
history, and I'm not the best student of history,
but it doesn't take a scholar to know that human
history is marked by difference. And so I think
that's the I just was reading this morning, actually,
about one of the ways to understand complexity
and complexity. Science is talking about how
the present is integrated with what's come from
the past. So there's not this separation between
past and present. And I think that speaks volumes
as to why there's this overemphasis of difference.
One thing that's glaring about history is it
is ripe with lessons, yet we seem to allow the
same thing to happen over and over again. And
one could argue up until very recently, you know,
when there wasn't really any way of disseminating
information aside from books and maybe a newspaper,
that, you know, that would be the issue that
a lot of people just didn't realize what was
going on behind. the curtain but as we progress
through the last few decades we can't use that
excuse anymore but you still seem to see the
same behavior where i would argue a very very
few you know manipulate the masses for their
own personal gain why are we allowing that to
still happening to still happen excuse me and
if you were king queen for a day what would you
do to finally turn the corner on that repetitive
cycle Yeah, I think it's an excellent point and
very provocative, particularly for me as I think
about the professional identity that I have chosen.
If I'm committed to helping people understand
their leadership capacity and achieve their potential
through that lens of leadership, we have a whole
lot of very negative, very destructive. And some
even evil examples of what happens when people
are in positions of authority, which people often
confuse with being equal to leadership. I think
we get at this reality that power is easily utilized
for negative purposes. And to your point, the
impact that one individual can have on the many
when they... bring together their intelligence
with their power with the use of information
and misinformation it can go sideways real quickly
and so why why does that happen i mean we could
probably go back to aristotle and socrates which
i know you've done with some of your other guests
This has been a line of thinking and trying to
explore the reasons why for thousands of years.
I'm certainly no smarter than those folks, but
I think history repeats itself. And unfortunately,
human history has a way of repeating really horrible
things as much as human history demonstrates
that we can rise above it. So I choose to look
at how we can rise above. Instead of just assume
that we're going to be stuck in a pattern of
all that other stuff. I have a theory slash hope
that the enemy of exactly what we talked about,
you know, the tyranny of the few. would be to
heal the masses and understanding generational
trauma and how that contributes to all things
stress, whether it's financial, whether it's
relationship, whether it's unaddressed psychological
trauma, that if you can get the masses to heal,
you then empower critical thinking, which then
I think would be the enemy of the tyrant. I think
it's a beautiful dream. And I am of the more
optimistic people you will ever meet. And unfortunately,
I think you're 100 % correct that that could
happen. And I want to lean on the art. There
are some, I'm going to butcher this, but there
is, I think it was a quote by Martin Luther King
Jr. about the arc of humanity, leaning towards,
bending towards good. And I believe that. And
yet we see examples time and again of, in human
history and in our current world, of the few,
the tyranny of the few, and that the masses are
not galvanizing on the side of good. And so I
would love to support your theory and figure
out ways. And I think I do because of how I spend
the majority of my... workdays is thinking about
how to mobilize the masses. I don't do it from
a community organizing perspective, but I do
work in the spirit of the democratization of
ideas and of talents, I would say. And I think
that's what we need as well, is for more people
to believe that they can have a say in what the
future looks like. And they do have power, contrary
to perhaps the mass messages that they're receiving.
One thing that seems to be evident, and you could
look at Nazi Germany, you could look at many
examples of this, but when a nation is deliberately
divided, I think you get further and further
away from that kindness, compassion, community
that I believe is human evolution. I think that
the way we evolve is closer to kindness. And
even if you look at the Bible, I'm not a devout
Christian, but I've had this conversation recently.
I feel like the Old Testament is, well, here's
how not to do it. This didn't work. So here's
the kindness, compassion, love, forgiveness,
you know, that I think is going to be the future.
I think it's a message from the past. But I feel
like the people that know what they're doing,
if they deliberately keep dividing a nation and
pigeonholing them and setting them against each
other, they are stopping our emotional progress.
Yes, I would agree. And I think your call back
to not only Nazi Germany, but any example of
genocide, and in fact, any number of civil wars,
you can see how people in those positions of
power very deliberately chose routes to divide.
It's that old saying, divide and conquer. So
if you create those divisions and you reinforce
those divisions, you are debilitating. individual's
capacity to come together absolutely and creating
those barriers can be done physically and we
see examples of that today they can also be created
emotionally psychically psychologically economically
like so those are a whole lot of environments
or arenas for division to be mastered, which
makes it, I think, more complicated for how people
can choose to come together. 100%. Well, let's
kind of start down the road of what you're actually
working with now on the leadership side in a
lot of the organizations that you work with.
From the educational road that you took, it was
really interesting. I saw you were in a department
based around philanthropy, which I've never seen
on an academic level before. So let's start with
that. What did that even look like? Great. I
love bringing it into the conversation because
I actually was just on a call last week speaking
with someone about the power of that phase of
my life. So for your listeners, the word philanthropy
is used in a lot of different ways. And I would
argue today it's used very narrowly to reflect
the practice of giving money. I had the opportunity
to work for an individual who was light years
ahead of his time. I think he would be known
as a Renaissance man. His name is Robert Payton,
who, of blessed memory, made a huge difference
in my life. And he made a huge difference in
a lot of people's lives. his role in creating
what is called now the School of Philanthropic
Studies, I think, at Indiana University. At the
time, it was called the Center on Philanthropy
when I was a full -time professional working
for him and working for that center as an adjacent
role. What we were looking at was how do we make
ourselves agents of positive change for the good
of humanity. And his approach to the work in
philanthropy was to broaden people's conception
of what does it mean to engage in Whether it
is about raising money or perhaps it's about
raising consciousness, perhaps it's about bringing
people together, perhaps it's about how you approach
education. How do we build into our ways of being,
not just in this country, but across the globe,
a recognition that our responsibility is not
just to ourselves or our communities, it's to
all of humanity. Making choices in favor of the
common good, for instance, over an individual
good was one of his mantras, I would argue. And
he had a lot of very pithy ways of communicating.
He was a public teacher and he advocated for
all of his students. He had a couple of academic
programs that he ran and then he had a whole
lot of what we now call mentoring relationships.
where he advocated that we all become public
teachers so that we embark on this journey of
doing good for the greater whole, no matter what
your particular profession or sector was. So
he influenced doctors and lawyers and teachers
and public servants of any ilk. And generically,
he would say, you have the opportunity to do
good for others. Leverage that. So whatever your
platform is, whether you're a middle school teacher
or you're a court appointed defense attorney
or you whatever the role was, you always have
a choice where you can do better for the public
good, for the common good. And that was really
his approach to this word philanthropy. And so
I had the privilege of working very closely with
him for two and a half years. And it was an instrumental
time of my life. I was in my late 20s. I was
working on my PhD. At the time, I thought I was
going to go into higher education and stay in
higher education. And he really challenged me
to consider. How might I become a public teacher
outside of higher education, which is, in fact,
what I have done, keeping one foot sort of in
higher ed, but really spending the majority of
the last 25 years outside of higher education,
really goes back to my time with him, where he
emphasized that if I'm truly committed to this
thing called leadership, why am I limiting it
to college students? College students at the
time were my primary source of interest and passion.
Working with him, I discovered that there is
this part of our world called civil society or
the third sector or the nonprofit sector, the
nongovernmental sector. There are a whole lot
of labels for it. Regardless of what you want
to call it, there are individuals and organizations
and systems that are trying to do right by the
entire population. So filling in the gaps where
government and business are not taking care of
the whole, this other large community is focused
on how do we take care of the whole. And so that
shift of thinking for me was. It was a tremendous
paradigm shift, frankly, to move from thinking
in a very isolated way about how do I impact
the lives of college students and higher education
in America to how do I embrace all people who
are interested in making a difference in their
world through the lens of leadership, no matter
where they live, no matter what they do, no matter
how old they are. So he really opened up for
me and created a much... broader view and we
were happily engaged in doing this with people
of a whole whole range you know from post -baccalaureate
students who were in a fellowship program with
him for a year or two years to folks in central
and eastern europe who were trying to create
democratic civil society beautiful when I discuss
higher education having got my degree in exercise
physiology, which is kind of split. I did my
first two years in London, my last two here in
Florida. And then my wife has gone through a
med school program. I see a lot of the inefficiencies,
the unneeded prerequisites, the hyperinflation
of the fees for students, et cetera, et cetera.
But where it's very glaring, ironically, in marketing
as well, but in leadership, In my profession
of first responders, we have people who pursue
pieces of paper, but there doesn't seem to be
actual leadership gleaned at the end of that
particular track. I would imagine that this mentor
that you had had kind of witnessed that himself
and tried to. to lean into the altruistic part
of leadership that I would argue is the most
important part in my profession. What were the
disconnects back then that even initiated the
program that he started? So I think one of the
disconnects, which is actually where I thought
you were going with your own critique of higher
education, was the division between thinking
and doing. So one of the disconnects he found
was there was no practice of the ideas. There
was no practice putting into the practice the
values and the virtues that were being studied.
So one of the core components of this baccalaureate
program, post -baccalaureate program that he
created, was that every student would work full
time in a local nonprofit organization. So that
whatever they were learning in the classroom,
they then had to experience and practice in the
work setting. So it's all well and good to talk
about collaboration, to talk about service, to
talk about values -based decision -making. Those
were all elements of the curriculum. It's a whole
other thing to actually do those in a work setting.
And the connection that I made because I was
working for him, not taking that curriculum,
Although because I worked for him, I was taking
the curriculum. My own formal curriculum was
in higher education and organizational development
and organizational behavior. And I was using
my filter of leadership. And I saw so much of
the principle -based learning that he was advocating,
creating the bridge from. Well, if you're going
to learn it, you've got to do it. And if you've
learned it, you're also going to be talking with
people about it. So how do you demonstrate in
action that which you believe? And I think most
programs in any formal educational setting fail
to make that leap from what you know and what
you think you know to how do you do you. And
there's... very little practice space provided
to students. So skills -based learning in the
classroom is often done at best in a laboratory
setting, which you and I both know is not real
world. And it's better than not practicing at
all, but even better is to practice. So I would
say he was at the forefront of the internship
co -op. as being integral to a productive education.
I think the other disconnect that he addressed
was this notion that you mentioned earlier about
human history, that we can look at modernity,
we can look at current events. And if we don't
take into consideration where we have come from,
we're really never going to understand modernity.
We're not going to understand current events.
So it's really important to know the past, to
be intelligent about the present so that we can
impact the future. And so I would say that was
probably the second major disconnect that he
was addressing was how do we broaden the ways
in which we understand today? through the lens
of the past and through different perspectives
on the past. So just as much as he would have
someone, he would assign a reading, let's say
on one end of the political spectrum, he would
assign a reading on the other end of the political
spectrum or to your point about the holy books.
If he's going to be educating about this public
servant notion and where does the notion of service
come from? Well, that's from our religious traditions.
And rather than just presenting it from a Christian
tradition, which is the tendency in this country,
because that's the predominant religious orientation,
he would bring in alternative views. He would
have people read from the Quran. He would have
people read from the Buddha or from Confucius
or different faith traditions that he thought
would be informing this human need and this human
capacity to serve others. I'm glad you used the
word service. In my profession, and again, there
are some great leaders, true leaders in the fire
service, but we are in the absolute midst of
a recruitment and retention crisis. And the backstory,
I would argue, is when I came on, it was very
soon after 9 -11, a lot of us just signed up
and went in blindly. It was very, very competitive.
So if you got the opportunity to be hired by
a fire department, There were no questions. You
just said thank you. Fast forward and you start
going to funerals and you start realizing that
the way that we're being worked maybe isn't conducive
to a high level of performance and longevity.
If that isn't identified and changed, then you
start seeing this downward spiral. And where
we are now as we sit here having this conversation
today is there are a lot of people in, and I'm
using air quotes, leadership positions. who enjoy
a 40 hour work week to go home at five o 'clock
every night and sleep in their family home whilst
the men and women under them are not only working
a 56 hour work week now they're being forced
to fill in the gaps and now they're working 80
plus hours being forced to stay away from their
families and in those situations what i see is
is an absence of moral courage That just because
you are OK, that's not what it's about, that
you should be advocating for the people that
are under you that you are representing. And
I see a disconnect there. So as you mentioned,
you can be in charge, you can be a boss. But
to me, a true leader is someone that's going
to affect change, even if it doesn't benefit
them in any way, shape or form. I would say especially
when it doesn't benefit them. is when you find
the most influential demonstrations of leadership
and the most effective forms of leadership is
when it does have, when that person's moral courage
is saying you rise above your own ego and you
rise above your own rewards so that you're actually
sacrificing for the betterment of all. And it
goes to this. fundamental definition of philanthropy,
the love of humankind, that when you think about
those in positions of leadership, and you have
examples of how leadership is defined, that is
aligned to what you're saying. You have just,
unfortunately, more examples of just make it
to the top and you get all the goods, and then
you'll be good at being a leader. And that's
the kind of writing around and talking about
leadership that just curdles my blood, because
that's not leadership. That's the manipulation
of power. And that's the use of authority for
personal gain. That's not what leadership is.
So having had the privilege of working with some
folks in the fire service, I was really struck
by the unwavering commitment to improve the lives
of others. And this was the first population
of individuals who I had the privilege of working
with who literally were putting their lives on
the line because that's what it means to be a
first responder, is that you are literally willing
to sacrifice your life for someone else. And
I couldn't help but think that during the couple
of days that I spent with these two teams in
the fire service, that there are no better examples
of what. a commitment to leadership looks like
than in the fire service. Now, whether it's the
practice or not is what you're saying, that in
the practice of leadership, you see the difference
between those who are taking advantage of their
positions of power and authority and those who
are leveraging them for the good that can come.
You see this in lots of other sectors, but I
think it's particularly stark and frankly painful
in the fire service because of the stress and
of the pain that people are experiencing in their
fulfillment of what they see as their calling.
So the need for effective leadership, I think,
is even greater in the first responder community.
Yeah, no, it is. I mean, I feel it's exactly
that. It exasperates the chasm because when we
first towed the line at the beginning. Selfless,
courageous service is exactly what our entire
ethos is. So then when you have the abandonment
of that as someone maybe climbs a particular
career ladder, that is the ultimate organizational
betrayal, which, you know, ironically, as we're
learning now from psychology is incredibly detrimental
to the mental health of the people that serve
under you. Right, right. And I think it's not.
difficult to also say by extension, you're really
damaging the organization's health. So it's an
interesting perspective to take. What is it in
human nature that causes us to work against our
own self -interest and the betterment of the
whole? And yet there are so many examples of
people doing that. You're in this academic space.
What was some of the first organizations, institutions
that you started working with as a mentor now?
Do you mean from when I was at the Center on
Philanthropy or more recently? At what point
in my career are you thinking? Yeah, but I mean,
once you started kind of reaching out of actually
being the student yourself, where was some of
the first kind of, you know, professions or organizations
that you started impacting? So I think early
on, because my focus started out as the ways
in which we can impact young people as they go
through their higher education experience. I
started out in a very traditional sense. identifying
institutions of higher learning so colleges and
universities that were committed to the healthy
development of their young people and frankly
that's why I went and got a PhD was because I
wanted to be a part of the change that would
help colleges and universities remember and prioritize
the healthy growth and development of young people
because if we're not fostering their growth then
what's the point of a college or a university?
I think that question is particularly relevant
today, frankly, because it's become more of a
business than a calling. But at the time, back
when I first was... At the outset of my career,
I would say I was very much within the walls
of higher education. So I was working at different
colleges and universities, and I was starting
then to see that there were a lot of organizations
that were adjacent to colleges and universities.
So when we think about the activities that students
are involved in on campus, I started to work
with athletic organizations. And I started to
work with fraternities and sororities. And I
started to work with service organizations that
had membership of college students. So trying
to help them figure out their best ways of. cultivating
the talent of young people and designing systems
and structures that would be supportive of their
healthy growth and development. Because again,
I think the pressure to run a business, no matter
what your mission statement says, or no matter
what your vision is, there are some The unfortunate
forces that I think come into play when you realize,
oh, we've got a good thing started, but now in
order to stay afloat, we have to build the business.
Well, as soon as you start prioritizing numbers
over people, that's always when I get concerned.
So I was trying to work with organizations that
were in support of the higher education system.
While I was working at the Center on Philanthropy,
that's when I started to see, oh, wait a minute,
if I'm doing all of this on the college campus
and with organizations that are coming onto the
college campus, why aren't I doing this for the
broader community called the nonprofit sector,
called those organizations that are mission -driven
and fueled by the passion of those working in
the organizations, but those individuals often
are lacking in... well, what does it take to
lead an organization? How do you change the minds
of others? How do you galvanize a community around
a particular calling that you feel your organization
is here to sponsor? So if you're trying to end
homelessness, there's a very powerful community
of individuals who are passionate about ending
homelessness. They may not have... the skill
set to influence others, which is inherently
what leadership is about. So I started to then
broaden out into the nonprofit sector. And I
would say, James, I spent about 20 years almost
exclusively spending my professional working
hours, whatever they may be, morning, noon, night,
weekends, holidays, between higher education
and the nonprofit sector. And it's only very
recently that I've realized. and had the opportunity
to extend then into the public sector and government
as well as business. So it's been kind of starting
with the higher education space, nonprofit space,
then into some of those other spaces. I want
to go to the nonprofit space because that in
itself is a very interesting area. But just before
we do, I saw this on social media, so I'm taking
it with a pinch of salt, but I saw... Something
saying that in the, I think it was as late as
the 80s, a student could work during the summer
and earn enough money for them to pay for college
for the rest of the year. My wife just graduated
med school with almost a million dollars worth
of debt this last year. Big difference between
those two statements. And obviously, med school
is always going to be a little bit more. What
have we seen as far as the devolution of the
affordability of education for our future workforce?
Yeah. Well, you cannot mathematically make it
work as an undergraduate student today to work
your way through college. And I think it maybe
is even as late as the early 90s. You could still
work your way through college. And now the price
of higher education has gone beyond an individual's
earning capacity so that the equation inherently
puts you in debt if you don't come from a family
of privilege who had set up the 529 plan when
you were born so that you could afford college.
I want to say that... Don't quote me on this.
So maybe this is something that you won't include.
But I want to say that the average price of a
traditional four -year degree is no less than
$800 ,000. And students can't earn that. A traditional
age student or a non -traditional age student
cannot earn that. So yes, med school is above
and beyond. The four -year degree itself has
moved out of reach of the majority of the student
population. Thank goodness we have the community
college system. where not only two -year associate's
degrees are offered, but tremendously powerful
job certification programs are happening, as
well as some four -year degrees are being offered
at community colleges, which remain the most
accessible and the most affordable. So students
still can work during the summer and the school
year and afford a two -year degree or one of
those certification programs. But the traditional
bachelor's degree is out of reach. Yeah. And
I think there's a reckoning coming for higher
education. My son's going to he was going to
go to Utah State. He got accepted. But again,
on paper, it just made no sense. So he's doing
his first two years here, still living at home,
going to community college. And then, you know,
he's going to do the second two in Utah, which
the transfer. Yeah. And it's actually a very
inexpensive school compared to I went to University
of Florida. Insane. Like you said, my degree
was sixty thousand dollars. So, yeah, absolutely
lunacy. But but yeah, so there are ways of making
it more efficient. But I mean, it seems to me
that we're first. Firstly, you have these prerequisites
that make no sense. The number of high level
math classes my wife had to do to be an optometrist
was was complete lunacy. I mean, she's not, you
know, sending people to the moon. She's checking
your eyes. This is a lot more anatomy and physiology
than than high level physics. But then, you know,
the like you said, just the price. I mean, there's
got to be fewer and fewer sections of society
that are able to get this education. So from
a wasted resource of some of these prereqs, I
think trade schools do a very good job eliminating
this one conversation. But also, and I'd love
to get your thought on this, where did this come
from? How do we get from, you know, a lot of
the places around the world give their nation
free education, India, for example, if I'm not
mistaken. And yet we have probably the most expensive
education system on the planet. It's a great
question. I think there was a time when I would
have been able to answer that question, but I've
been so removed from the study of higher education.
What I would say is I think you could extrapolate
and say, just like so many other systems in our
country have become tremendously focused on economics
and the viability of an entity has gone beyond
its original design. And so I think if we were
to look at the roots of higher education where,
granted, originally only the privileged few could
attend and you had to be in the higher class,
the upper class, in order to attend Socrates
seminars. When Socrates gathered people, he was
not gathering people from across the community.
He was gathering the most wealthy and the most
privileged. And so in some ways, you could say,
well, actually, higher education is the same
today as it was then. It's only for the privileged
few. But we've created a business that has provided
this camouflage of it's available to everyone.
I think that oversimplifies. I think there was
an incredibly important time in the United States
with the GI Bill, for instance, where government
took a very deliberate step to create access
to higher education, and then it was affordable.
And then literally anyone could attend a four
-year degree -granting institution, and they
could make it through that four -year degree
-granting institution, even if they didn't come
from money. So I would say instead of it being
a straight line from ancient Greece, it's been
more of a roller coaster of experiences around
access and affordability. I think the ongoing
challenge today is that while someone might get
into school, might get into a college or university,
they can't afford to stay in. So you look at
the compounding pressures of The reducing population,
because we actually have a population of college
going students that is lower than what it used
to be. So the system is designed for more people
than who currently can get there or literally
could get there. And then when you add the economic
challenges on top, that's even fewer people.
So we have too many colleges and universities
for the population as it's currently designed.
So we're creating new pathways. More and more
institutions have opportunities for adults to
return to get their bachelor's degree. In theory,
they've created mechanisms like giving academic
credit for work experience. So to your point,
maybe you're 10 years into your career and you
decide you want to go back and get your four
year degree. There are some institutions that
now will give you a pass on some of those prerequisites
because you've. demonstrated in the workplace.
But those are not sufficient to address the financial
challenges. So we have a financial model of an
organization or of a system that just isn't sustainable
in the long run. And I think we have institutional
leadership, frankly, that is losing touch with
the purpose of higher education. So as higher
ed has become a bigger business. We're starting
to now see people in positions of leadership
at those colleges and universities who actually
don't understand the history of higher education.
And they are coming at running an institution
with a business mindset, which actually doesn't
work for the educational principles of the institution.
It may work for the financial needs of the institution,
but it's going to be now at cross purposes with
why does this institution exist? purpose of higher
education. It's actually not to make money. Yet,
today, most leaders would say, that's what my
responsibility is, is to make sure this institution
stays financially afloat. So I don't know if
that answered your question, but I did get to
go on a soapbox a little bit. No, it did. It
did. It's interesting. I think it was the Washington
Post. Well, no, the Wall Street Journal did a
piece probably about six months ago now, and
it was saying that Gen Z is leaning into the
trades more so now than ever. And when I talk
about the recruitment crisis, you know, when
I used to Google 20 years ago or Ask Jeeves or
whatever it was back then, you know, firefighting,
it was like it's all heroes and babies and, you
know, and. you know, mustaches and that was it,
you know, and there's maybe some guides on how
to ace your interview. And that was about all
you could find. Now, if you Google, is it healthy
to be a firefighter? You're going to have page
upon page upon page on cancers and suicides and
all the things. And it's not detracting from
the actual position and the service and all the
beautiful things. But now we get to see both
sides. And I think this is what's happening with
higher education, too. If someone Googles, is
it worth getting a degree? Right. you know, they're
going to get the honest answer. Well, hey, it's
going to be tens of thousands of dollars. You
get a piece of paper and it probably won't guarantee
your job. Is it worthwhile being a welder? or
a plumber or a carpenter, yes, you're pretty
much going to be able to work the moment you
get that piece of paper. So from my profession,
if we don't fix the things that are broken, young
people won't want to come to be firefighters
anymore because they Google all the bad things.
And it's the same, I think, with higher education
is a good parallel, you know, like Blockbuster.
If you don't change the way you do things, when
you realize the writing's on the wall, you're
going to collapse. Right. Well, and I think the
other thing that's really interesting, at least
in terms of threats to higher education, is you
could also make the argument that you can learn
just as much through the Internet. Yep. And there
are free courses now being offered by various
individuals and institutions that are provided
at your fingertips through your machine. Some
of them are free. And even those that cost money
cost less. So why would I go to the, well, and
I know the community colleges are also fighting
this as well. Why go to the community college
for a technical course on Excel when I can go
into any number of providers online and do that
same course for a quarter of the price? So the
community college is being threatened now in
ways that it hasn't been in the past. And the
four -year institution is being threatened from
all different. dimensions, including is it worth
it? So do I really want to go in debt for $800
,000 or a million dollars? What's the value proposition
of higher education? And to your point, firefighting,
I know folks who are in the police forces are
finding the same challenges with recruiting.
Look at all of these negatives. Look at all of
these risks. Why would I want to go into that?
So recruitment is a huge challenge. So where
do you see with this kind of lens that you have
now in 2026 and all these different organizations
that you work with, where is the resistance to
change when you know that the way that you've
done things aren't working? And I'm very blunt.
Our graveyards are full of data on how not to
do it. Why do we find so much resistance? And
I can testify to this personally, the number,
the amount of pushback I've had when I've created
so many, let's say I've, I've found so many people
that have the solutions, brought them onto the
show, you know, shared papers. I mean, all these
different things, put it on a silver platter
for $0 and there's still so much pushback shown
where the money is downstream with the wasted
overtime and lack of retention and workman's
comp premiums and lawsuits from mistakes. And
there's still, so much resistance. Where is that
coming from? When you could empower someone to
be the hero in their department, if they had
the moral courage to just simply say, this isn't
working, we need to do something different. And
those guys over there have already got the answer
for us. So this is when I wish I had studied
psychology, because I think I would have a firmer
foundation. What I can share with you is from
my experiences and the ways in which I've gone
about working with people, because this is a
constant refrain that I'm hearing, which is why
are people so resistant to change? If only we
could get people to do this instead of this,
we would be so much better off. I will say that
there are some fabulous ways of understanding
why humans resist change. And one of my gurus
around change or the challenges of change, is
William Bridges, who talks about how change actually
brings about grief. Because if you're changing,
that means you're saying goodbye to something
or you're losing access to something. And so
grief causes pain. So why choose a route that
causes pain? And this is when I then look at
the economists who say we are not rational actors.
You know, I had this fabulous conversation with
my son who majored in economics. He didn't love
majoring in it. And I said, OK, so then what
would you major in now? He's two years out from
his college experience. He's like economics.
And I said, well, but why is that? He said, because
everyone should understand what economics is
teaching. And one of the principles that he has
helped me remember from my one economics course,
which, by the way, was a total disaster in my
academic career. But what he talked about is
how economics is great at rationalizing the expected.
But we as human beings are not rational beings.
We don't make rational choices. So to your point,
there's all sorts of data and there's all sorts
of evidence that a particular course of action
is not the right course of action. And yet time
and again, we choose that course of action and
we get all of those costs and all of those consequences
when if we had only been willing to change and
try something different. But I think what gets
in the way so often is fear. I think people are
afraid of doing something different. They're
afraid of what the consequences could be if they
try to go against the norm. And so we have this
tendency as human beings, I think, to stay with
what's comfortable, even when we know it's not
working. And I think about this on a very just
human level of how many people do you and I know
who are in jobs that are not good for them? They're
not happy in them. They're not fulfilled by them.
They are maybe being harmed by them, to your
point, from either a mental or physical perspective.
And yet, so many people are resistant to changing
their jobs. Why? Well, because change is hard.
Change is scary. Change is uncomfortable. And
so better to know, what is it? Better to... What
is that saying? The devil you know is better
than the devil you don't know. Thank you. I needed
that. Because we can use the other cliche. The
grass isn't always greener on the other side.
And so I think people are afraid, frankly. So
when I think about why people don't change, I
actually go to the Pixar movie Inside Out. Have
you seen it? I have. Great film. Okay. One of
my favorite films. Always. And I feel like it
should be required viewing for every human being
at various points of their lives. Like you should
rewatch it. And I just think about those base
emotions, you know, fear and anger. They keep
us from doing a lot of really good things. Sadness.
Same thing. I'm not saying those are always bad
emotions. We have good reasons to feel those
emotions. I think lean into the comfort of what
isn't working out of fear of trying something
new. Because what if it doesn't work also? Then
we're just back where we started. So it's that
you've extended all that effort for nothing.
And so I think there is this unfortunate pessimism
that kicks into people's minds when they think
about change. And they see the bad stuff. So
you've been quoting social media. I'm not a big
user of social media, but I'm trying to do more
of it, which you probably don't hear very many
people say. But I feel like sometimes I'm missing
what's going on in the world around me because
I'm not on social media enough. So I'm trying
to be there more. And I saw this great meme that
said, if we can overanalyze what goes wrong in
our lives, why don't we overanalyze what goes
well or what goes right? But I think we have
a human tendency to focus on the negative, which
is why people don't change. That's oversimplifying
it. There's a quote I heard someone say quite
a while ago now, and it's spot on. It's choose
your heart. So if you use being overweight, for
example, yes, going to the gym is hard. Yes,
making certain dietary changes is hard. But carrying
around 50 pounds of weight. all day, every day
is also hard. So once you acknowledge either
way is going to be hard, why not do the thing
that's hard that's then going to benefit you?
And you're going to have this healthier life
and you're going to be able to play with your
kids and you're going to have longevity. And
the same with these courageous decisions that
are needed to turn the ship around in the first
responder professions. Yes, it's going to be
a hard conversation to go to your city or county
and say, look, downstream, here's all this money
we're wasting. We can't get people. people to
test for us. We're losing people through suicide
and cancer and all the other things. That is
a hard conversation initially to put yourself
out there and sell it. But it's also hard. I
would hope it was hard if you truly have a heart
to stand up at a pulpit in a funeral and deliver
some sort of speech about why another one of
your first responders just died or why a family
died in your community because the fire engine
that should have been there wasn't fully staffed.
So in my opinion, I mean, I agree with you 100%,
but really it's a position of courage. If you're
going to be wearing that class A uniform with
all those bugles on your collar, you are expected
to be courageous the same way as me when I was
simply a firefighter. I was expected to go into
that burning building. And so you have to have
the courage to be able to make those hard decisions.
You know, I can't help but think. to one of the
foundational texts that shapes how I think about
leadership and how I work with people when it
comes to this question of how can I be more effective
in leading. And it's work by Ronald Heifetz and
Marty Linsky on adaptive leadership. And the
subtitle of one of their books is something like
The Dangers of Leading. And I think it's because,
and they write about this in the book, and I
think it's very powerful, when you have a position
of authority, and by the way, they talk about
the difference between authority and leadership.
And this is one of the reasons why I think so
many of our organizations and institutions are
in such bad shape, is because people collude.
There's a confluence of authority and leadership,
and people don't understand the difference. What
often happens is people get into those positions
of power and then realize, oh, this is going
to be really hard. So to your point of choosing
hard, they choose the easy way rather than the
courageous way of standing up for what's right,
let's say, from an ethical standpoint. Because
it's harder to do that, they opt out or they.
Choose to hope that the bad thing won't happen
because it's easier. And so I like that saying,
choose your heart, because I think a lot of people
are looking for what's easy. And the reality
is leadership is not easy. And yet there is this
mythical sense that, oh, if you get to that position.
Life gets easier. You don't work as many hours.
Your life isn't at risk. You get to make decisions.
All these ideals come to mind. When in reality,
the virtue of leading is that you make hard decisions.
And ideally, if you're demonstrating ethical,
influential, effective leadership, Those decisions
are not based on what is easiest for you. As
you said earlier, you have to have the moral
courage to make the decision on the principles
of the organization, the values of the organization
or of the profession for what's better for everybody,
what's good for the whole, which goes back to
my old mentor's view around philanthropy. So
it sort of comes full circle. And I think this
is true whether you're in the fire service or
you're in higher education or you're running
your own family business. One of my clients tells
stories of what their experience was like running
a family business and how convoluted it got because
people in positions of authority made decisions
that were not best for the business or the clients.
They chose to do what was best for them. And
what was best for them ended up running the business
into the ground, which ultimately they knew was
going to happen, but they couldn't make the hard
choice. So they chose the easy route, which then
led to the worst outcome. We know there's pretty
much three groups, I would argue, in most scenarios.
So for example, in the fire service, you're going
to have to say at my level, you're going to have
the firefighters that... despite the environment
and the work hours and all those other things,
they're still going to focus on trying to sleep,
trying to eat well, exercising, training, taking
extra classes. That's your top 10%, if you like.
And the numbers obviously are, I'm just throwing
numbers out there. You have the bottom 10 % who
really just showed up for a paycheck and that
was about it. And they're going to do the bare
minimum. To be compassionate, I would say that
you've got a middle group of whatever that ends
up being, 80%, 60%, whatever you want to label
it as, that can really kind of be swayed either
way. So in the leadership point of view, in the
first responder professions, you're going to
have those incredible thought leaders that are
morally courageous, that are the people that
we're trying to model everyone else on in the
fire service. You're going to have the equal
and opposite. That doesn't matter how many people
they lose. They still sleep soundly in their
beds, I would argue, for sociopaths. And then
you have the middle group. So knowing the elasticity
of that group, what would you bring to these
leaders through your kind of leadership principles
and philosophies to break the inertia and move
them towards the moral courage of making those
hard decisions? Well, I think I'll go back to
our initial connector, Rick Rochelle and Rob
Nielsen, who run All -American Leadership, which
provides leadership training in the fire service.
And a core component of that curriculum, which
is in alignment with how I have always run my
business, is values -based decision -making and
ensuring alignment from the individual through
the team to the organization. on a values basis.
So whether you're in the fire service or whether
you're in a business or doesn't matter in a hospital
setting or in the neighborhood, I think the capacity
of an individual to understand what matters most
and for what reason is how I think about the
values basis of how we live and lead in our lives.
And without a lack of clarity about what matters
most, and without a lack of alignment of what
matters most with how we conduct our lives, I
would argue that's the fundamental truth of where
we either go right or we go wrong. So having
the moral courage to me comes down to, do you
live in alignment with your values? I was involved
with an organization, James, for many, many years
called the Leadership Institute, and it still
exists today. It is a six day immersive leadership
program for college students trying to help them
learn how to live and lead with integrity. And
what I loved about that experience, and it was
fundamentally transformative for me as a staff
member, was this recognition that. In our daily
lives, we have to choose to pay attention to
our values. We all have our values. The question
is, are you explicitly living with them or are
they implicitly in your lives? And I think the
more we can explicitly live with our values at
the forefront of who we are and how we interact
in the world, the more effective we can be. So
if I'm thinking about those organizational leaders,
In the fire service, my hope would be that there
is an opportunity for them to consistently and
continuously keep the values at the forefront
of their minds, rather than to have those values
almost become like the air we breathe where we're
not thinking about it. Although the irony is
in the fire service, you think about air a lot
because you often don't have access to good air.
In the everyday way of understanding, it's like
the fish who's swimming in water and isn't conscious
of the water. We can be not conscious of our
values. And I think that's when we run into the
biggest problems is when people aren't operating
from a values, a core values basis. have worked
with many, many individuals and groups over the
years around values, clarification, and being
conscious of your values and have been pushed
on, well, what do you mean by values? Because
I value money. Well, that's not a core value.
Why is money important to you? Well, then you
get at what the core value is. The core value
is security. The core value may be stability.
The core value may be love. But is it money for
you or is it money for others? And then you start
discerning what is the demonstration of that
value. And I think if we had a way to consistently
and explicitly ensure that people in positions
of authority are understanding what their values
are and are operating in a way that's aligned
with organizational values, we would see different
outcomes. That's a good segue to the nonprofit
space. You have a lot of people initially that
I would argue are beginning this journey of whatever
their nonprofit is for the right reasons, for
that philanthropy, for that altruism. Fast forward
however many years, we hear stories of these
large nonprofits that have these insane administrative
costs. taking themselves on holidays and all
kinds of things. So there's clearly a disconnect
at that point. What are you seeing as far as
that space? And where is that balance between
obviously needing some sort of financial stability,
but not letting go of the primary goal of a nonprofit?
It's an interesting. because I think to your
point, there is a rare example of someone who
gets into the nonprofit sector who isn't coming
from a motivation of kindness, compassion, care,
love, understanding, virtue. I wonder if there
isn't a similar progression that we actually
talked about earlier in relation to higher education,
that economic and financial realities start to
overtake that values basis or those core motivations
that started out as this is our why. And that
down the road, what ends up happening as organizations
expand or go to scale, whatever the term is that
you want to use, people lose sight of their why.
And one of the compelling exercises that I have
done actually comes from, I think, Jim Collins,
who talks about the five whys as a way to remind
someone of what is that motivation. hazard a
guess that when we see malfeasance or mismanagement
in the nonprofit sector, it's often because someone
has lost sight of their why. And that happens
through time. It happens as people gain power
because we know that power corrupts and people
lose sight of what the impact of their actions
and words can be on others. when they get distanced
from the problem. So Bryan Stevenson talks about
being proximal to the problem, being proximate
to that cause, which is motivating you. If you're
not familiar with Bryan Stevenson, he's behind
the Equal Justice Institute and is a defense
attorney for those. uh fighting the death penalty
that's part of his history and what has become
a very strong mantra in the non -profit community
has been around how do we make sure that we are
proximate to the to the problem meaning if we
get far away from our cause then it's really
easy to lose sight of priorities and then your
decision making can get shifted into Let's say
what is good for me versus what is good for our
cause. When we have distance from problems, it's
easier to lose sight of why am I here in the
first place. It's interesting because there's
a huge parallel. For example, in this recruitment
crisis that we see now, there's a leaning into
just filling seats. Now, an 18 -year -old. doesn't
necessarily guarantee that you're going to be
an effective first responder. You're just a human
body sitting in that seat. And so I feel that
this exactly like you said, there's a disconnect
of the why. Well, why are we sending a vehicle
full of three, four, you know, expert fire and
EMS personnel to this building that's on fire
to this medical emergency? Well, the goal is
to obviously be as effective as possible and
save a life. The moment that's lost in the fact
of just numbers, well, how many people do we
need to fill this engine? How much is the salary?
Okay, well, just here we go. I think this is
how we ended up with this problem now. And then
locally, just to use this as an example, not
only the county where I live, if they had five
suicides in the last five years, they just had
four firefighters arrested on a hazing, which
resulted so far in 10 terminations. You filled
those seats with this, you know, bottom of the
barrel hiring. And I'm not saying that everyone
there is bottom of the barrel. Let me be very
clear. There's some great firefighters and leaders.
Well, I wouldn't say leaders so much, but great
firefighters in this profession. But when it
comes to the philosophy and this toxic environment,
you know, this is your downstream cost again.
So is that, you know, is the mission. Being fulfilled
at the moment, I would argue no, because there
are all these issues that are costing myself,
the taxpayer, millions of dollars now through
all this lack of jobs and the lawsuits that I'm
sure I'm going to follow through wrongful termination,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I see where
we have these fire departments that are not acknowledging
where they need to change is exactly like you're
talking about. The people at the helm, whether
it's county or city commissioners, whether it's
fire chiefs, whether it's union presidents, They
have completely lost the why, the very core of
what we're there to do in the first place. Yeah.
Well, and it's interesting that you say that
because I've been spending more time with executive
leaders these days. And I have found that this
conversation around why. is one in which that
often catches them off guard. Like, wait a minute,
what are you asking me? Because the pressures
that they're living with on the day -to -day
pull them away from that space. So I try to remember
the kindness, the compassion, the empathy in
my work with them to learn what is it to be in
that position of leadership. And at that executive
level, you're dealing with so many stresses and
strains that are seemingly urgent and important.
But we know from any number of sources that when
your attention is only on the urgent, then you
often miss what's important. And the urgent can
take so much of your energy and your bandwidth
that when it comes to making those important
decisions, you're taxed, like you have nothing
left in the tank because you've been constantly
addressing those urgent issues. I have to say,
as an aside, if I was talking to someone else,
I would use the analogy of you're constantly
putting out fires as opposed to dealing with
what's the core issue. But I can't use that analogy
with you. Although I will share, I heard a really
brilliant perspective that comes from fire service
around executive leadership and decision making
that says, you know, there are embers that do
not need oxygen. So don't blow on those embers.
Let them die out. What you actually need to pay
attention to are these upstream issues. And so
they use the fire service as an analogy of resource
allocation of the leader's time, attention and
insight. And that too often they are in a firefighting
mode as opposed to a prevention or. preparing
mode. And so I thought that was an interesting
perspective to take because I do think that the
fire chief, the city commissioner, even captains
can get caught up in those demands of the paperwork
and the regulations and the compliance issues.
And those are all urgent because you have to
meet those deadlines. When in fact, the important
work is the human development. It is making sure
there's a sense of team because you have to depend
on each other when that call comes in and the
engine goes out. Like it's everything to appreciate
about how coordinating, how coordinated a team
is. When it comes to fighting a fire, I have
learned that through this experience with all
American leadership. There's no better example.
I don't think of effective teamwork when it comes
to looking at humans working in concert with
each other. Unfortunately, that's not the urgent
work of those in leadership, but it has to become
the priority work because that's the important
work. How do you train people to work in concert
with each other? But those aren't the deadlines
that people in those positions of leadership,
I think they're not feeling that pressure in
the same way. What about the financial benefits
of investing in your greatest asset, which is
the people that work under you? I swear almost
every single conversation I have when there is
an issue, one of the most... Obvious factors
is the false economy, you know, and then again,
like I just detailed with locally here, trying
not to make those changes at the extra personnel
attracts, you know, great, great firefighter
recruits to then fill the vacancies and then
have a full platoon, fully staffed, healthy shift
that gets ample rest and recovery that can go
home with their family and, you know, really
bolster their relationships. Downstream, you
would save the taxpayer millions. But what I
see over and over again is a lot of poor leaders,
rather than understanding the proactive investment
of their people, they just lean into the false
economy of, well, I just want to look good this
budget year. I don't want to rock the boat. So
talk to me, because you've obviously worked with
a lot of groups now. What are you seeing overall?
I mean, not just numbers, but just in principles
of the downstream financial savings of prioritizing
the health of your people? Well, I wish I had
those numbers. I literally was just talking with
someone yesterday about how having those numbers
would be so beneficial because for whatever reason,
it seems like numbers convince people better
than principles, which I still don't understand.
But that seems to be the currency is you've got
to prove it with the data. And there are organizations
like Korn Ferry and Deloitte. and the Center
for Creative Leadership. There are any number
of organizations, the Gallup organization, who
study this downstream impact of training and
effective hiring, effective onboarding, and the
money that's saved. So I want to say it's something
like, so I'm going to say this one number and
then shift to the principles. I think the number
is something like you save six times the investment
in training. Like if you train someone well,
your savings are 6x over poor training, which
then leads to all of those negative consequences
like high rates of turnover, absenteeism, poor
performance, etc. I think the principles that
I lean into when I am working with individuals
and organizations on this. investment question
is, one principle is, well, what do you want?
Like, how do you want to go to work every day?
What kind of work environment do you want to
be in? And so the principle of, frankly, self,
what would I call it? It's not self -protection,
but it's essentially When you think about what
you want to experience at work, describe that
environment for me. And the environment or the
organizational culture that someone describes,
I can very easily tie to that comes about through
good training. And it even comes about through
good hiring practices, which is all about creating
the pipeline. So I can go upstream with that
individual to say, if this is what you want your
daily or... organizational existence to feel
like, to look like, to be like. Let's go upstream
and look at how you get there. And it is all
about talent development. And talent development
starts with your hiring practices, which actually
comes from developing the pipeline for people.
But just because you hire them in doesn't mean
that you can then just wash your hands of it
and say, okay, good people are here. Now we can
let them be. No, it actually takes deliberate,
intentional cultivation. of a way of being, of
a way of working, of bringing those shared values
into the workplace. I think one of the practices
that I've always believed in mattering the most,
which, frankly, the fire service has the perfect
opportunity to embody, because you actually have
to do this, which is to break bread. It's to
eat together. Because when you actually share
a meal with the people who you work with, you
create bonds. And there's all sorts of neuroscience
behind this that talks about the different hormones
that fire off when you feel a sense of belonging,
when you feel seen and heard and valued. When
you learn about one another's lives and you create
a trusting environment, you get this thing called
psychological safety. Well, this is best built.
around a table eating together. And the fire
service, that's part of your shift. There are
a lot of organizations that really struggle with
how do we break bread together. So I'm trying
to create ways for my clients to do that, which
I think is at the fingertips of leaders in the
fire service. So the principle of coming together
to know one another, to create those social and
psychological bonds with each other is one of
those investments that doesn't take necessarily
a whole lot of time or even a whole lot of money,
but it does take intentionality. So you can't
just sit down and have food. Being able to have
some kind of purpose in that gathering and having
a moment to say, so what's gone well with us,
our day today? Where did we do really well last
week? How do we celebrate together? That also
counteracts the negativity and builds the positive
regard you have for your teammates, whether you're
in the fire service or whether you're in the
office. How do we celebrate together our accomplishments,
I would argue, is almost a lost art of leadership,
lost art of management. We have to fix the problems.
It's always a deficit -based thinking approach.
And I would say if we instead had managers and
leaders approach their work with others from
an asset -based perspective, we would see remarkable
changes. I love that. philosophy that you had
that imagine where you want to be and then reverse
engineer from there because if if i really am
you know blatantly honest about all the places
i work which had the best culture it would be
anaheim in in california and at the time we weren't
really talking about the kind of work week and
stuff back then but the the hiring was incredibly
competitive you know it was again a few years
after 9 -11 I've said this many times in the
written test alone. I, I competed against a thousand
certified firefighters and, you know, either
EMTs or paramedics. And then a lot of them had
a fat resume to, from, you know, department of
foreign street to explorer programs, ambulance
operators, et cetera, lifeguards. So these were,
you know, the creme de la creme. And then you're
competing against a thousand of them. My class
was 15 people. There was two classes. So very,
very competitive. But then when you get hired,
they traditionally, through attrition, because
the bar was set so high, would lose 25 % of every
class by the end of the year. So now you've got
another few that have gone. By the time you make
it through that crucible... You certainly have
understood the gratitude of the position that
you're in, but you've also kind of proven yourself
to the rest of the fire department. We used to
work out together. We trained all the time. You
know, we ate all the time together. And, you
know, one of my guests, Dina Ali, I'll credit
her to saying this, you know, if. If we just
did exactly what you're talking about, we really
wouldn't need peer support and some of these
other things anymore because we would just be
organically taking care of each other again.
So that reverse engineer I've got experience
is probably why I'm so dogmatic with this messaging
because I've lived a great culture in that one
department at that one timeline. And I think
that's it. So the lower, conversely, one of the
worst places I've worked, which I won't name.
The bar was in a trench in the ground and it
was a complete polar opposite. Very, very low,
you know, brotherhood, sisterhood, camaraderie,
you know, operationally very low standards. So
the great firefighters in that department were
good despite the environment because of the environment.
And, you know, the recruitment, if they had five
openings, they might get seven applicants. So,
you know, you're seeing night and day. There
are these organizations that we can look at and
say, all right, what did you do back then? You
know, how how does your as you said, your pipeline
look, you know, what are you doing to create
this high level of of gratitude and performance
in your in your environment? And then I hope
one day that that fire department will then look
at the healthier work week and address some of
the issues that they have, too, because they
still have issues. Right. But I love that idea
of imagine your dream culture, your dream fire
department. reverse engineer what does it look
like as far as step one two and three to get
to that point and then as you said to then maintain
those great men and women's physical health mental
health performance well and i think to your point
there is the maintenance piece of this that often
gets forgotten that well -intentioned starts
aren't sustained and so when i am working with
my clients, part of what I talk about is what's
your ongoing way of fueling this engine? So if
you think about, well, what's the role of a leadership
consultant? A lot of times it's come in and do
a retreat for us. And early in my career, I said,
yes, I want to just do a whole bunch of retreats
all the time. That's all I want to do is facilitate
retreats. And what I came to learn very quickly
was that's a nice to have. And that's all it
ends up being if all you're doing is a retreat.
Now, when I work with my clients and I'm asked
to come and do a leadership retreat, the answer
is, okay, yes. And what comes before it and what's
coming after it? And how do we ensure that whatever
is done at the retreat, we've prepared people
for, we've connected to what's happened before.
We're addressing real challenges. We're also...
planning, and this is the most important part
of it, we are preparing for what's going to come
out of the retreat and how do we continue to
feed this engine or this idea or this vision,
whatever we've produced, this good feeling, how
are we going to feed that to continue and grow
it? Because if we don't continue with a sustaining
or a maintaining mentality, then it's simply
a nice day to have. And it's like throwing water
in a colander. that doesn't do any good to anyone.
So I think this reverse engineering is critically
important and it's how I work with a lot of my
clients. And once you have that vision, it's
how do you continually commit to it? So it's
again, not leaving it to chance. That, okay,
because we did these things and we have this
now, we can wash our hands of it. No, it's like
maintaining a body's health. You have to continue
to do those good sleep hygiene practices. You
have to continue to eat nutritious foods. You
have to continue to maintain the stress. You
will never be in a stress -free environment.
Our organizations will always be under threat
somehow. the leaders will always feel stress.
It's what are our practices for navigating that?
How do we mitigate when we can and what happens
when we can't? So when a crisis hits, are we
prepared and what's our recovery process? So
it's that notion of we have to not only create,
we also have to sustain and maintain. Absolutely.
Well, I want to hit one more topic, then we'll
go to some closing questions. But I know more
recently, as you said, you work with some of
the school systems. Another entire conversation
in itself. I've had an educator on Pasi Solberg,
who is from Finland, but he lives in Australia
and educates around the world on the Finnish
school system. And hearing the model there, who
are nearly always at the very, very top of the
world's education system, and comparing and contrasting
it to the standardized system of education that
my son was led through the last K through 12.
Very, very different structures. And as far as
the health that we're seeing in schools, for
example, the breaking down of PE programs, the
types of food that is served in our schools,
I would argue that the American school system
maybe could have the humility to learn from some
other systems around the world. But that's just
my perspective. So talk to me about what you're
seeing as far as our school system itself, and
then how were you applying leadership to that
environment? So excellent, excellent observations.
And the good news is, James, there are school
systems that are learning from other non -American
school systems. I think one of the challenges
in the American schooling system is the centralization
at the same time as the fracture. So we don't
have federal standards for educating up. We have
federal compliance rules that I think are more
about constraints than about leveraging assets.
And I think that's a real problem. And I think
we are continuing to see the challenges that
are coming about from more states' rights around
what does public education look like. My brother
is... in Great Britain and has been there for
25 years. So he raised his family in the British
schooling system. And part of what I've learned
from him is how radically different K -12, whatever
version of it you want to call it, how radically
different it's done when you have a national
governing body that is impacting all schools.
versus our system where our national governing
body impacts only some schools and only in certain
ways. And then we have states that are adding
its different ways of accomplishing this same
end of education for all. So I think we have
an incredibly fractured system. I think adding
to that complicated structure, we then have the
different realities of school funding. where
you've got, from my experience working in the
Cleveland Metropolitan School District, it's
an urban school district where the funding model
in the state of Ohio is based on real estate
taxes. Well, if you know anything about economics
in the United States, you know that our urban
core of whatever city has much less money than
our suburban environments. And when our school
system is based on real estate, then our urban
core, our urban institutions have much less money
to work with. And so there's a huge divide in
public education in America between and among
urban, suburban, and rural. And rural and urban
systems have much more in common with each other
than a lot of people realize because there is
this tremendous resource constraint. Add to that...
one of the things I came to appreciate is the
expectation of communities, for the most part,
have increased around what a public school system
is responsible for. So I can only speak to my
firsthand experience in Cleveland, where the
community really was anticipating and expecting
the public school system to be responsible for
not just the education of young people, but their
physical and mental health. So health care was
being expected of schools to accomplish. What
were kids going to be doing after school became
the responsibility of the school system. Well,
that is cross purposes. So you already have a
resource constraint. Now we're having to not
just take care of kids during the normal school
day, but we have to take care of them before
school and after school up until dinnertime.
We certainly have to feed our kids because we're
working in an impoverished city. Cleveland is
either the poorest or the second poorest child
population in the country. So many children in
the public school system had to come to school
to be fed twice a day. So during the pandemic,
when I was at the school district, we were very
proud of the fact that we didn't cut any jobs
and we did not stop feeding our kids for the
year that the school system was shut down. Amazing.
And that is a point of pride for the leadership
of the district that we figured out a way to
continue to provide for food for our families.
And by the way, we were providing food for the
families, not just the children. And then it
became evident that we needed to provide other
resources. So how can we get digital access to
these families when we emerged out of the pandemic,
but we're in an all virtual environment still?
We learned during the year, basically, that the
school system was shut down, that lots of families
didn't have access to what we're doing. communicating
via the internet. So we had to work on how do
we get families connected? So I think one of
the misunderstandings that is pretty common is
how much public schools in America are responsible
for and how many restraints and constraints are
put on these systems. and the system leaders,
not to mention the teachers. So I think there
is no more stressful position besides being a
first responder than being in a school system.
Because whether you're a teacher or a principal
or a custodian or one of the people working in
the system to provide support, the responsibilities
are mounting. And the resources are diminishing.
And so the gap is increasing between what's needed
and what's being provided to meet those needs.
And so I think about the passion with which so
many people are committing to and choosing to
work for public schools. And I can only speak
about public schools because I've not been in
the private school setting or the charter school
setting. But there are a lot of incredibly talented
and gifted professionals and people who are choosing
to work for public schools because of the important
role that public schools play, because they are
an anchor institution in most of our communities.
And they are operating, I think, on incredibly...
reduced and continually diminishing resources.
So the leadership challenges are just increasing.
When I was speaking to Pasi in Finland, when
they have more impoverished areas, they actually
give them more funding. I mean, you know, common
sense really, isn't it? You know, areas that
make sense. Usually, you know, usually your people
that have, you know, a higher affluence are usually
healthier. They have better health care. Maybe
they actually have access to school, you know,
sports programs, et cetera, et cetera. So they
bolster the areas that need them rather than
chastise them for having lower scores and then
take even more funding from them. So exactly.
It makes perfect sense to me to do it that way.
I only wish I could figure out a way to get our
lawmakers to see that. We have some pretty horrific
school funding formulas and Ohio has, I think,
ruled. I think the Ohio State Supreme Court has
ruled that our school funding formula is unconstitutional
for maybe no less than 25 years. And yet it continues
to be. the case that this is how schools are
funded. So this is when I feel like a child.
I just don't understand. Like I want to throw
my body down and just pound the ground and throw
a tantrum like this cannot continue. And yet
year after year, it continues. So when our funding
formula continues to misappropriate those funds.
I go back to how you started, which is the importance
of kindness, compassion, and understanding, care,
and empathy. Extending that to our school employees
is so important because they are taking care
of our future and they are building our future
because those children are our future. My son
has had so many great teachers. like the fire,
like the police, I have the utmost respect because
they are great teachers, despite the system that
they have to teach in. What I also experienced
so sadly was what happens when you put a bad
person in a leadership position. So we had the
Parkland shooting a few years ago, which got
everyone knee jerk and pendulum swinging the
other way when it came to anything in the schools.
And after it happened to my own child, I uncovered.
The fact that this one middle school, the principal
and the SRO, were sending children to a 72 -hour
psychiatric hold, in my son's case, just simply
for being in tears, on a weekly basis. So I paid
almost $100 to pull the police records. Hundreds
of kids. Now, I can count on one hand how many
people I've Baker acted in 14 years as a firefighter
paramedic. And of those, these are people who
are clearly suicidal. If we don't lock them up
into a room, they will end their own life. We
have to bring them down. And these children,
like when my son was there, I watched numerous
ones come through. So that's the other side of
this. If we don't go back into the why, like
you said, which is. physically and mentally healthy
children that are on an educational route that
inspires them to be you know whatever the jigsaw
puzzle piece in society then we're missing the
point and if you're turning your head on literally
sending children into a 72 -hour hold in a you
know a furnitureless room where their shoelaces
have been taken away And then in cases where
there is someone who's supposed to be there,
now they're enduring screaming and God knows
what else. For three days straight where their
parents can visit them for 10 minutes, you know,
you think of the mental health. Yeah, I mean,
I saw it on my own. Yeah, it's traumatizing.
So this is the danger as well. When we're not
holding these decisions and these leaders in
the educational space accountable and or the
law enforcement people in those educational facilities,
the ripple effect and the damage can be innumerable.
Oh, absolutely. And I saw that as well, not in
that same way, but similar and different versions
of that story that you just told, which is heart
wrenching. And I'm sorry that you've had to experience
that. And others are clearly struggling because
they had to experience that. That is the true
risk of hiring bodies. You said this earlier
in the fire service example, like just hiring
bodies to have a physical. presence is not what
we need. And the schools are going through very
similar kinds of hiring challenges. The talent
recruitment for a number of years when I was
at the district meant that we were actually sending
people abroad to try and bring talented teachers
here because we were having such a hard time
filling the pipeline. Interestingly enough, James,
there's a connection between what we were talking
about earlier with higher education and the situation
in our public schools, which is the pipeline
of quality teachers is drying up because education
is not valued in our society. It's very difficult
for lots of public school teachers to live on
the wages that their school district is offering
them. So their salaries are not sufficient. So
our best and brightest. are not going into the
teaching profession, which means that pipeline
of high quality, qualified teachers is drying
up. So we're going to very quickly, if not already,
see school systems that are facing real shortages
in the classroom. We're facing shortages in our
school resource officer role or whatever the
school police. component is we're facing tremendous
challenges in our bus drivers and in our food
service workers. And I would tell you from firsthand
experience, not only at our Cleveland system,
but at some other systems where I've had the
privilege to work with those individuals who
are known as the operations side of the house,
they are often the most important individuals
in the life of a child because those are the
adults. who see the children at the beginning
of the day, during the day, and at the end of
the day. And if we don't have high quality people
in those roles, the difference that a bus driver
can make, not only in terms of the safe transport
of the children, but also in understanding how
is this children starting their day? How is this
child going home? And if that person is attuned
to children, then they can change a child's life.
Same with the school resource officer. And to
your point, go to the other end of the spectrum.
If those aren't high quality individuals, the
damage they can do in children's lives is immeasurable.
So it's a huge, that talent pipeline is a huge
issue in education as well. Someone told me the
other day that healthcare makes up 20 % of our
GDP in the US. And if you look at some of the
programs that we've had, either in the UK or
America, that have shown to be incredibly effective
when it comes to increasing the wellness. And
we'll just stay with our children because obviously
that's really where you're forging healthy adults.
In California, there was a program in La Jolla.
Have I got that right? In one of the high schools
in the 60s. It was based on kind of like a Russian
philosophy initially. All the kids did PE and
there were four levels, kind of almost like a
belt system in martial arts. And they went through
it in teams. I'm sure they kind of put them together
a similar, similar standards initially, and you
could elevate and you could go to the next one,
the next one. And it was all basically calisthenics
and the top tier. They would be able to be the
front cover of any muscle health magazine. And
so they had the fitness all figured out. So if
you want to be a baseball player or basketball
player, you were already able to do it. Athletically,
you just learned the skill now. And if you just
simply wanted to be in chess club and play the
clarinet, well, you were still in great shape.
Now you look at what Jamie Oliver did in the
UK, bringing healthy food back, real food. to
the schools and and he you know revolutionized
that if you look in japan they not only cook
all the school meals from scratch but the children
even clean their own schools so now you have
this ownership of the building so again with
the humility there are you know all these different
things finland's you know philosophy there's
all these systems that are already working and
then now if you forge healthier humans and you
start making the nation healthier. Now you've
freed up tax money that's being wasted on chronic
illness. And now you can start putting it back
into the teachers and the firefighters and the
people that we're talking about. So again, it
goes back to this false economy. There are solutions
that we can, we don't need even more taxpayers
money. We need to be more efficient in the money
that's already there. Yeah, I agree with that.
I had the opportunity to go to Singapore and
do work. with a group of teachers on social and
emotional intelligence. And there was a governmental
mandate that every child from age five to, I
think, 20 was required to take a course or to
have some kind of learning experience in school
around emotional intelligence. At the time, this
was just lights out ahead of everyone else. And
when I think about the mental health benefits,
so this adds to your equation of if we've got
Jamie Oliver's example in the UK around healthy
foods, and we have the example from Japan around
healthy environments that the children are helping
to take care of so they have a sense of ownership.
We add to it the Singaporean experience of social
and emotional learning that's governmentally
mandated as part of the curriculum. where we're
learning about what is the impact of our emotions
on how we know ourselves and how we interact
with others. Imagine how much mental health benefit
there would be in our schools when we know the
exact opposite is happening right now, where
we have children as young as six and seven having
suicidal ideation. Which is beyond heartbreaking,
like inconceivable to me that that would be the
case. And yet we've got demonstrable evidence
that mental health among youth is declining rapidly.
Yeah, I know the social media side as well, obviously,
hopefully not that young, but that's a big factor.
And it's great seeing Australia and some of the
other places making it illegal to have social
media under the age of, I think it's 16. And
then these classrooms that are locking away the
phones, because in our generation, we got to
experience pre -phone. life and you weren't distracted
you were bored out your mind in a two -hour math
class but right but you know you didn't have
you were safe yeah you weren't cyber bullied
or comparing yourself to some fake reality exactly
exactly well happily there are more and more
school districts that are going to the phone
uh phones not in the classroom You know, that
when students walk in the door, I even before
I left the school district. So this has probably
been now four years ago. There were a couple
of our schools where the principal said, yep,
we're done. Parents, our children will not have
phones on them during the day. And they were
the trendsetters. And now there are entire districts
throughout the country that are saying, OK, you
can have your phone on your way to school and
on the way home. But as soon as you walk in the
door, that phone goes away. And what's been interesting
is I've learned from colleagues, the people who
have been the most resistant besides parents
and for some very good reasons, it's actually
been the teachers, the teachers who are very
resistant to turning in their phones because
they're saying, well, it's about the kids. It's
not about them. But in fact, it is about the
adults as well. So I'm hopeful that we will continue
to see that trend. Absolutely. All right. Well,
let's get to the closing questions. And the first
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
I love reading. So this is a really hard question
for me to answer. With your permission, can I
offer one fiction and one that's nonfiction?
Absolutely. Okay. So the fiction. book that I
would offer is called The Secret Life of Addie
LaRue. Addie LaRue. Yes. Fabulous narrative that
transports you to another time and a place and
sort of plays with our conception of what does
the world mean to us and how do we live a good
life? I hope I've got that title right. That's
the one challenge with me recommending books
is I don't always remember the exact right title.
But I think the and I'm going to just look at
my bookshelf so I don't mess up this title. I
think. My most recent book that I like talking
to people about is by Adam Grant. I'm sure others
of your guests have recommended this, but it's
one of his newer books, if not the newest one.
It's called Think Again. And I think it goes
to your question of why are we so resistant to
change? And how do we actually help ourselves
change our minds? And I just really love how
he presents. the idea that we can fall into some
very natural traps about how we think and how
we encourage other people to think. And so I
think that's the other book I would recommend.
Brilliant. What about film, television, or documentaries?
Film, television, or documentaries. So I watch
to escape. So I'm not going to give you anything
that has deep meaning. I feel like my day is
filled with enough intellectual and cognitive
load that when it comes to watching television
and movies, I like to escape. I'm trying to think
of, I think the newest series that I have fallen
in love with and advocated that people watch
is called The Pit. which is all about the life
of an ER. You're nodding your head like you know
it. Yep, and then the new season just began.
I haven't started it yet. Yep, that's a really
great one. And I'm actually restarting Only Murderers
in the Building, which is Martin Short and Steve
Martin. And I can't remember the actress's name,
but that's my other escapism. Yes. Yes. Whatever
her name is. So those those would be my thoughts.
Excellent. All right. Well, is there a person
that you recommend to come on this podcast as
a guest to speak to the first responders, military
and associated professions of the world? Yes,
but can I correct the book title, the first one?
Yeah. It's actually The Invisible Life of Addie
LaRue. Invisible, okay. I knew as soon as I said
it out loud that I had gotten the adjective wrong.
No problem. Is there someone who I think you
should have on your podcast? Well, yes, actually.
The person who comes to mind is my dear friend
and co -author, Scott Allen. He is a fantastic...
dynamic thinker and speaker around various topics
related to leadership. Like you, he has a podcast
and has been interviewing people on his podcast
since COVID on the topic of leadership. So I
think he would have some great perspectives to
share with you. And podcaster to podcaster, it
could be a fun conversation. Absolutely. You
mentioned co -author. I didn't realize you'd
written a book. So tell me about that. Yes. So
Scott and I, along with another colleague, we
brought her in the second time around. So we
wrote a book called Emotionally Intelligent Leadership,
a guide for college students. That was the first
edition. We wrote that back in 2008. And then
we published a number of resources to go along
with that book. So there's a self -assessment,
a facilitator guide, a student workbook. And
then we republished all of those materials. 10
years ago now, which is hard to believe. So Emotionally
Intelligent Leadership, a guide for students.
We were able to get the publisher to get rid
of college because our position is this model
of leadership applies to all of us and we're
all learning leadership. So it's no longer just
about college students. And the book and its
resources all focus on... the importance of bringing
an emotional intelligence lens and perspective
into this question of how do I demonstrate leadership?
It's learnable, it's teachable, and it's accessible
to all of us because we're human beings and we
are inherently emotionally intelligent. The question
is, are we conscious of how we use ourself and
interact with others in the contexts that we
find ourselves? So that's the focus of the book.
Easy read, not meant to be a textbook. And in
fact, I just gave a copy to a college student
who is in our lives. And he said, wait a minute,
there are parts of this book where I'm supposed
to write in the book. And I said, absolutely.
We wanted this to be an interactive experience.
So the point of the book is to help the reader.
explore what dimensions we call them facets and
competencies of emotional intelligence they can
leverage in themselves to better affect change
and lead. And where can people find that book?
On Amazon, actually. happily available on Amazon.
I would just encourage your listeners to make
sure they obtain the 2015 version because the
2008 version is still available. And while it
was good, the 2015 version is even better. So
look for that version. Brilliant. All right.
Well, then the very last question before we make
sure where people, excuse me, make sure people
know where to find you. What do you do to decompress?
So I love being outside. I'm still that kid who
ran around the neighborhood as much as possible.
And so when weather permits, I will go outside.
I've learned how to hike in the wintertime because
if you love the outdoors and you live in Cleveland,
you have to figure out what to do when it snows
and is cold. So hiking, cycling, working in my
garden, going for long walks. All of those help
me decompress, as does I've recently taken up
painting, which has been fascinating because
for the majority of my life, I've said I'm not
artistic. And I'm learning that actually there
is an artist in me. So this is the beginner painter
speaking. But I have found that that's a great
way to spend time. And then the last way I would
say I decompress is I love jigsaw puzzles. Either
it's on my iPad or it's literally on a table.
There's a jigsaw, easily accessible. Brilliant.
Well, for people listening first, where can they
find All American Leadership? And then let's
go to anywhere else that they can find you specifically.
Sure. So All American Leadership is online. I
think it's actually at allamericanleadership
.com. You can find me also. My website is MLS
Consulting, as in my initials, M as in Marcy,
L as in Levy, S as in Shankman, MLSConsulting
.net. And I'm also on LinkedIn. But as I said
to you, I have some challenges with maintaining
a social media presence. So I try to post every
week and some weeks are better than others. But
those are the two places people can find me online.
Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so much.
It's been such an interesting conversation. I
think the ones I enjoy the most, not that I don't
love my conversations with my first responders,
but it's when people come from a completely different
area and you see these parallels, they exist.
And whether it's the moral courage or the altruism
or whatever it is, these same principles apply
because no matter what. uniform we're wearing
or what profession we're under we're still human
beings so i want to thank you so much for being
so generous with your time and coming on the
behind the shield podcast today well thank you
really appreciate you having me and i just want
to extend my thanks to you and my gratitude to
all first responders because generically i have
always appreciated each and every one of you
who chooses that path through my work with all
American leadership and getting to know those
in the fire service, my respect and appreciation
has gone up tenfold. So thank you.