WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by a company who has

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truly found a solution to an age -old problem,

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and that is Carna Bunker Gear. One of the most

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prevalent conversations in the fire service is

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should we or should we not train in our bunker

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gear? Now the answer to both is yes. As most

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of us are aware, the carcinogens from structure

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fires of which there are over 260 that are dangerous

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to human health, not to mention the PFAS and

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other chemicals that are within our gear from

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the manufacturing process, are factors that we

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obviously want to minimize. Now the other side

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of the coin is that we do need to train in our

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gear. There is no way to acclimatize the heat

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retention and lack of mobility than to actually

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wear the gear. So seeing this problem himself,

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firefighter and exercise physiologist Ryan Conley

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developed a carcinogen -free gear at a much lower

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cost that can be used in non -IDLH atmosphere

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and training that does not require puncture or

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tear resistance. Now, as someone who always trained

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in gear myself throughout my career, I wish this

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technology was around then. And I got to test

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it personally while coaching my tactical athlete

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class a few weeks ago and can testify that it

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not only simulates the heat retention of frontline

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gear, but also the lack of mobility, which is

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imperative at operating at a high level on the

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fire ground. Now some additional benefits include

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being able to doff the gear when you do get banged

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out for a call, increasing the lifespan of your

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frontline bunker gear, And then also public education.

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Think of the number of times that we allow, for

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example, schoolchildren to wear our gear when

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it's infused with all these carcinogens. So there

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are so many real world applications for a fraction

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of the cost of IDLH rated bunker gear. So if

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you want to hear the whole story behind this,

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listen to my conversation with Ryan Conley on

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episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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or go to carnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the

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Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name

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is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute

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honor to welcome on the show, leadership development

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professional and the founder of MLS Consulting,

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Marcy Levy -Shankman. Now, in this conversation,

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we discuss a host of topics from our educational

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journey into the world of philanthropy, leadership

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in higher education, the fiscal benefits of investing

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in your people, false economy in the first responder

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professions, moral courage, revolutionizing the

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American education system, the importance of

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refinding our why, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment, go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you...

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Marcy Levy Shankman. Enjoy. Well, Marcy, I want

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to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank

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you to our mutual friend, Rick Rochelle, for

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making this introduction. And secondly, I want

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to welcome you today onto the Behind the Shield

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podcast. Thank you. I'm really excited to be

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here. And I was thinking the same about grateful

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for Rick making the connection. Yeah, it's amazing

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how many incredible humans you get to interact

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with once you start interacting with incredible

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humans. Absolutely. I've often said when I make

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introductions between two people who I'm lucky

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enough to know that good people should know good

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people. And when you start introducing and getting

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to know good people, it just has a multiplier

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effect. Absolutely. Well, very first question,

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where on planet Earth are we finding you today?

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So I am in my home office in Shaker Heights,

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Ohio, which is in the middle west of the United

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States. We border on Pennsylvania, and a lot

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of people don't realize that Ohio, while being

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a Midwestern state, has some inkling towards

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the East Coast, although it is very much a urban

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-ish area where I am, because I'm just outside

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of Cleveland. For the most part, Ohio is more

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known for farmland. My wife is originally from

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North Canton, so not far from you. You're kidding.

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That's ironic. Fantastic. Yes, North Canton's

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about an hour if I were to go door to door. One

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of the interesting things, and you obviously

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talk about Pennsylvania, we think of the Pennsylvania

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Dutch. Talk to me about the Amish population

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around you, because it's a group of Americans

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that we really don't hear much about, but obviously

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you're surrounded by them. So they are a very

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interesting segment of the United States population.

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I actually also grew up with them around the

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central Illinois region where I grew up. And

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I actually have more familiarity with the Amish

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in Illinois than I do the Pennsylvania Dutch.

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They are a very traditional community that is

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anchored in a set of very strongly held beliefs

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and values. They are incredibly self -sufficient.

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There's actually an Amish community in western

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New York that's not far from here that we have

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some opportunities to engage with. And the Amish

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are traditionally aligned with some... basic

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practices of self -sufficiency, like they don't

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utilize electricity and they are very focused

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on farming and using their hands. So craftsmanship

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and cheesemaking, for instance, is something

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that you can count on from the Amish community.

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So here in Ohio, the community is very well known

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for making beautiful furniture. And so if you

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want high quality furniture made from wood, then

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you're going to look for an Amish carpenter.

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And they're pretty segmented, you know, isolated,

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exclusive community. So there tends not to be

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a lot of social interaction between the Amish

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and those who are not Amish. And that causes

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some interesting friction in those geographies.

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In what way? Well, I think that there is a value

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placed on a certain lifestyle for the Amish that

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is not consistent with modernity. So the use

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of technology, the... awareness of others, the

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inclusion of different lifestyles. The Amish

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are very comfortable with their way of life and

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their way of being and really set up walls. So

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when they are your neighbors, I think that creates

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some difficulty, even in some very basic terms.

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So if you're driving your automobile on the country

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highways, you know you're an Amish community

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when there's a horse and buggy. on the street.

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And so those are pretty narrow roads. And now

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you're having to share the road. And in Ohio

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and Pennsylvania and central Illinois, when we

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have wicked weather in the winter, it becomes

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kind of complicated and actually quite dangerous.

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So that's a really basic, small example. But

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I think you see some social challenges when a

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family maybe encounters a health challenge and

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their use of modern medicine and so there are

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practitioners of medicine who are saying we could

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help you and there's a resistance or actual rejection

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of that and so that can cause some interesting

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social challenges as well it's funny because

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as It's a double edged sword on both sides of

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that fence, because if you look at the preventative

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medicine side, the way that the Amish live actually

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is the medicine we need to be listening to. But

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like you said, if you're talking about cutting

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edge technology and trauma medicine, for example,

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then, yeah, I'm sure the modern medicine has

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a lot of value. Right, right. Well, and I grew

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up where we often had. the Amish carpenter coming

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in and doing work for us in the house. And I

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remember just being so appreciative of the work

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ethic and diligence of high quality craftsmanship.

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And I think I absorbed some lessons around what

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does it mean to be expert in something? Because

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here was this expert in carpentry and workmanship.

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And that was a tradition that's passed down from

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generation to generation. And so I haven't really

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thought about this for years now, but as a young

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person growing up Jewish in a community that

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didn't have a very large Jewish community, some

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of those values I saw consistent with how I was

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being raised in a Jewish home. And so it's interesting

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also to think about the diversity in our... population

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and how different communities may appear very

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different on the outside and yet when you get

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to know them you realize fundamentally at a values

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level they're very similar i think that's the

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problem can be simple yeah i mean that's the

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problem with modern society i feel is there has

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been such uh Over -emphasis on pigeonholes and

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labels and genders and religions and skin colors

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and et cetera, et cetera, that we're missing

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the majority of what's most important, which

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is a shared humanity and the celebration of our

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differences. Yes, I would agree that there's

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been an over -indexing on difference and an undervaluing

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of commonalities. Going back to the Amish, did

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you ever see the video that was going around?

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It was going around social media, so I don't

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know if it's come across your radar or not, but

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it was a Tesla behind someone on a horse and

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cart in an Amish family. And the Tesla was trying

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to figure out on his little screen what it was,

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and it kept flashing to all these vehicles, but

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it was lost. It was completely lost. He couldn't

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find it. No, I haven't seen that, but I would

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find a good laugh out of that one. Well, a couple

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of things I think that really struck me about.

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that level of community. Firstly, when you see

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them building a barn and then they all get together

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and carry that barn, that is phenomenal. But

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more recently, I forget which of the storms it

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was, but some of the storms that affected that

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area, whilst governing bodies were still trying

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to figure out who was responsible and pointing

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fingers at each other, there were a lot of Amish

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communities that went in and just started building

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homes for these people that lost theirs, which

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I thought was beautiful. Yes. Yes. That emphasis

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on we over me, I think, is very strongly held

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and demonstrated in those concrete ways. Absolutely.

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All right. Well, you mentioned Illinois. Let's

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start at the very beginning of your journey then.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a

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little bit about your parents and your family

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dynamic. OK, so I was born in Ithaca, New York.

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My father was on the staff and faculty of Cornell

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University. And we moved at the ripe old age

00:12:07.580 --> 00:12:10.840
of one month old to Champaign, Illinois, because

00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.200
he was hired by the University of Illinois. So

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I grew up in the Twin Cities, known as Champaign

00:12:18.379 --> 00:12:22.320
-Urbana, otherwise known by those of us who were

00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.220
townies as Shampoo Banana. which probably none

00:12:25.220 --> 00:12:27.419
of your listeners have ever heard of. I have.

00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:32.500
But growing up in Champaign was incredible. So

00:12:32.500 --> 00:12:37.019
as a child of the 70s, we had the neighborhood

00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:40.580
where you would go out in the morning as a little

00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:44.909
person and at some point you would go home. certainly

00:12:44.909 --> 00:12:48.090
to be fed, but perhaps it was to someone else's

00:12:48.090 --> 00:12:50.629
home for lunch and then someone else would come

00:12:50.629 --> 00:12:53.970
to your home for dinner. I actually have very

00:12:53.970 --> 00:12:56.409
fond memories of knowing it was time to go home

00:12:56.409 --> 00:12:59.350
when I heard the dinner bell ring and my mom

00:12:59.350 --> 00:13:01.769
literally would step outside and ring a bell

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manually and you could hear it for blocks. And

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I think that, you know, this started playing

00:13:08.490 --> 00:13:11.940
out. When I was seven, maybe. So I had a lot

00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:17.820
of freedom as a child and was very close to a

00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.659
neighbor who was the youngest of six. And we

00:13:20.659 --> 00:13:23.440
were just talking about this over indexing on

00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.600
difference as opposed to valuing commonality.

00:13:26.659 --> 00:13:30.919
So he grew up youngest of six Catholic family,

00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:34.639
hardworking. His dad owned his own business.

00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.100
I'm one. house away. I grew up the youngest of

00:13:39.100 --> 00:13:42.059
two. My dad's highly educated. My mom is highly

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educated. We're affiliated with the university.

00:13:44.259 --> 00:13:47.879
We're Jewish. And we could not be separated.

00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.639
And so he and I were pretty inseparable from

00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.179
almost literally getting our diapers changed

00:13:55.179 --> 00:13:59.539
together through high school. And to this day,

00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:02.279
I still consider him one of my closest friends.

00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:06.169
We were Always running around when we were little,

00:14:06.289 --> 00:14:09.429
we were really forming our ideas about the world

00:14:09.429 --> 00:14:12.429
and knowing ourselves and how do we relate to

00:14:12.429 --> 00:14:16.309
one another through each other's eyes as well

00:14:16.309 --> 00:14:19.470
as through our own. So when I think about best

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friends and the value that a best friend holds.

00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:25.120
I used to always say he was the brother that

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I wasn't born with. I actually have an older

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brother who is three years older than me. And

00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:32.700
he and I were not close growing up. We weren't

00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:35.620
antagonistic towards each other. We just weren't

00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:38.700
very close. We have become much closer and we

00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:41.639
did become much closer towards the end of my

00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:45.000
high school career. He was in university. And

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so there was a healthy distance, I think, at

00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:50.019
that point that allowed us to see the value in

00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:54.049
one another. But I grew up Running around outside,

00:14:54.169 --> 00:14:56.870
being very active in whatever sport I could be

00:14:56.870 --> 00:15:00.889
in. I was very much a tomboy and can actually

00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:03.230
remember a conversation with my parents at one

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point, like, why am I a girl? I literally can.

00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.580
remember saying that out loud because I wanted

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to be one of the boys. So I was one of the boys

00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.279
for many, many years playing tackle football

00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.259
until it was pointed out to me that I would actually

00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:18.419
get really hurt if I kept playing tackle football.

00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:21.220
So I was more interested in playing baseball,

00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.279
but then I had to stop playing baseball because

00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:26.399
at that time, girls didn't play baseball past

00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.240
a certain age. So that's when I switched to fast

00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:32.200
pitch softball, which actually became the core.

00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.600
of my identity in middle school high school and

00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.500
in fact I had dreams and plans of playing fast

00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:45.539
pitch women's softball in college ended up falling

00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:47.360
in love with an institution that didn't have

00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.320
the sport so I chose everything else over the

00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.200
athletic identity which was a huge turning point

00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.620
in my life but as I said also raised in a very

00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:02.740
strongly identified Jewish home And that was

00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:05.460
an experience that was quite interesting because

00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:08.419
we were in the minority. So I went to a high

00:16:08.419 --> 00:16:11.960
school of about 1 ,200 kids, and I think there

00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.320
were four other Jewish kids in my class. So there

00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.980
was a class of about 300 kids, and I was one

00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:21.299
of four Jews. And I always was raised to be proud

00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:23.840
of being Jewish. So I learned early on about

00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:28.269
how do you navigate difference. And not have

00:16:28.269 --> 00:16:30.309
it be something that separates. Instead, have

00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:33.090
it be something that brings us together. So I

00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:34.950
can remember with my best friend going to his

00:16:34.950 --> 00:16:37.789
house and decorating his Christmas tree. He would

00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:40.970
come over to our house and he would celebrate

00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:42.950
one of the nights of Hanukkah with us. And we

00:16:42.950 --> 00:16:47.490
always had the eternal argument of every December.

00:16:47.509 --> 00:16:49.490
Is it better to get all your presents at once

00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:51.690
or is it better to get it spread across eight

00:16:51.690 --> 00:16:55.169
days? I don't know that we ever resolved that

00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:57.419
argument. You got to have a Jewish parent and

00:16:57.419 --> 00:16:59.759
a Christian parent and you can get both. And

00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:04.420
then you get both. Exactly. So I think what I

00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:08.220
would say about my childhood was I was raised

00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:12.539
in a family that supported individuality and

00:17:12.539 --> 00:17:18.730
fostering a space of learning and growth. Those

00:17:18.730 --> 00:17:21.190
are words I use now. At the time, I just knew

00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:24.450
that I was loved and I was cared for and that

00:17:24.450 --> 00:17:28.210
I had this incredible community where families

00:17:28.210 --> 00:17:30.789
looked after their kids and other kids. There

00:17:30.789 --> 00:17:35.430
was a high value placed on taking care of each

00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:39.660
other, on supporting each other and on. hard

00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:42.279
work. We grew up in central Illinois. There's

00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.579
not a whole lot that's happening outside of the

00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:47.720
community. And what is happening is reflective

00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:52.920
of hardworking people. And so while I come from

00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.319
this highly educated family that prioritized

00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:58.880
always getting an education, there was no question

00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.220
in my mind that I would not only get a college

00:18:01.220 --> 00:18:04.180
degree, but I would get an advanced degree. I

00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:07.430
was with kids and really good friends who came

00:18:07.430 --> 00:18:09.329
from very different backgrounds, whether they

00:18:09.329 --> 00:18:12.309
came from a farming background or whether they

00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:16.529
came from what I would call a more blue -collar

00:18:16.529 --> 00:18:21.029
background. There was this commitment to you

00:18:21.029 --> 00:18:24.910
do you and we belong here together. And I realize

00:18:24.910 --> 00:18:28.130
now what a privilege that was, because clearly

00:18:28.130 --> 00:18:30.869
that's not what everyone's experience was growing

00:18:30.869 --> 00:18:34.029
up. And it took going to college when I left

00:18:34.029 --> 00:18:37.109
central Illinois to discover, oh, this is not

00:18:37.109 --> 00:18:40.210
typical. Some might say even that's not normal.

00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:45.750
But for me, it was very much the norm. I've said

00:18:45.750 --> 00:18:48.950
this many times. If you look at the. Common denominator

00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:52.289
in most of the holy books of different religions.

00:18:52.789 --> 00:18:55.349
Ultimately, you can sum it up with don't be a

00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:58.349
dick, pretty much. Kindness, compassion, community,

00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:03.430
empathy, service. When you hear so many stories,

00:19:03.569 --> 00:19:06.430
I was a boy, John, that I used to be my neighbor

00:19:06.430 --> 00:19:08.390
when we go on holiday for a week in England every

00:19:08.390 --> 00:19:10.329
year. And he was black and I was white and still

00:19:10.329 --> 00:19:14.009
am white. And, you know, we just saw each other

00:19:14.009 --> 00:19:18.880
as playmates. It was awesome. So when you reflect

00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.039
again on these commonalities, there's so many

00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.299
things that bind us together. We truly don't

00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:25.859
see these differences when we're young. What,

00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:28.700
through your eyes, are these contributing factors

00:19:28.700 --> 00:19:32.319
that take these, you know, arguably blank canvases

00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.619
of young boys and girls with, you know, I would

00:19:35.619 --> 00:19:38.519
argue, love and compassion in their hearts predominantly

00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.900
and create such division as we progress through

00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:45.940
our years? Oh, I've thought about this so much.

00:19:46.500 --> 00:19:49.240
And in fact, I would argue some of what I studied

00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:53.759
in college was focused on my curiosity as to

00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:56.779
why does this happen? You know, why do we not

00:19:56.779 --> 00:20:00.460
have peace? Why do we have antagonism? Why do

00:20:00.460 --> 00:20:05.039
we have this emphasis on difference? I think

00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:07.440
a lot of it has to do with what happens when

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.390
you become a grown up. You know, I think there

00:20:10.390 --> 00:20:13.990
are pressures on adult living that cause people

00:20:13.990 --> 00:20:17.349
to retrench to that which is common to them or

00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:19.829
that which is comfortable to them. I think human

00:20:19.829 --> 00:20:25.869
nature, there is something in our DNA that gets

00:20:25.869 --> 00:20:29.849
at this. It takes a lot more effort to be together

00:20:29.849 --> 00:20:33.430
than it does to be apart. You can see this in

00:20:33.430 --> 00:20:36.990
primatology where, yes, there's a communitarian

00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:39.869
spirit until there's stress. And when there's

00:20:39.869 --> 00:20:41.930
stress on the individual or stress on the system,

00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:46.529
people cling to what is safest for them. And

00:20:46.529 --> 00:20:49.990
that's that group of people who are closest to

00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:53.109
you. So it's family and it's the immediate surroundings.

00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:57.369
I think there are tremendous social pressures,

00:20:57.529 --> 00:21:00.990
especially today, that are coming from a broader

00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:04.150
spectrum, even than what I grew up with, because

00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:08.309
of media. And its impact on us and social media

00:21:08.309 --> 00:21:11.130
and its impact on us. I don't think it's all

00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:15.049
evil. I do think, though, there's a greater exposure

00:21:15.049 --> 00:21:21.309
to negativity. And we know from actually. some

00:21:21.309 --> 00:21:23.289
of the research that's being done in neuroscience,

00:21:23.630 --> 00:21:26.930
that there is greater power in negative emotions

00:21:26.930 --> 00:21:30.789
impacting the way we believe and think and feel

00:21:30.789 --> 00:21:34.470
than positive emotions. And so I think there's

00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:36.869
a little bit of nature that we're fighting against,

00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:39.190
and there's a lot of nurture that we're fighting

00:21:39.190 --> 00:21:41.450
against. Because I think you can look at human

00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:44.069
history, and I'm not the best student of history,

00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:46.809
but it doesn't take a scholar to know that human

00:21:46.809 --> 00:21:51.109
history is marked by difference. And so I think

00:21:51.109 --> 00:21:54.130
that's the I just was reading this morning, actually,

00:21:54.150 --> 00:21:56.529
about one of the ways to understand complexity

00:21:56.529 --> 00:21:59.789
and complexity. Science is talking about how

00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:04.069
the present is integrated with what's come from

00:22:04.069 --> 00:22:07.190
the past. So there's not this separation between

00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:10.329
past and present. And I think that speaks volumes

00:22:10.329 --> 00:22:14.009
as to why there's this overemphasis of difference.

00:22:16.269 --> 00:22:18.549
One thing that's glaring about history is it

00:22:18.549 --> 00:22:22.410
is ripe with lessons, yet we seem to allow the

00:22:22.410 --> 00:22:24.650
same thing to happen over and over again. And

00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:28.130
one could argue up until very recently, you know,

00:22:28.130 --> 00:22:30.289
when there wasn't really any way of disseminating

00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:33.069
information aside from books and maybe a newspaper,

00:22:33.369 --> 00:22:36.250
that, you know, that would be the issue that

00:22:36.250 --> 00:22:37.930
a lot of people just didn't realize what was

00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:41.029
going on behind. the curtain but as we progress

00:22:41.029 --> 00:22:43.069
through the last few decades we can't use that

00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:45.329
excuse anymore but you still seem to see the

00:22:45.329 --> 00:22:48.890
same behavior where i would argue a very very

00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:52.569
few you know manipulate the masses for their

00:22:52.569 --> 00:22:56.349
own personal gain why are we allowing that to

00:22:56.349 --> 00:22:58.809
still happening to still happen excuse me and

00:22:58.809 --> 00:23:02.150
if you were king queen for a day what would you

00:23:02.150 --> 00:23:04.650
do to finally turn the corner on that repetitive

00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:08.420
cycle Yeah, I think it's an excellent point and

00:23:08.420 --> 00:23:12.480
very provocative, particularly for me as I think

00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.140
about the professional identity that I have chosen.

00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.819
If I'm committed to helping people understand

00:23:19.819 --> 00:23:22.839
their leadership capacity and achieve their potential

00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.240
through that lens of leadership, we have a whole

00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:31.089
lot of very negative, very destructive. And some

00:23:31.089 --> 00:23:34.029
even evil examples of what happens when people

00:23:34.029 --> 00:23:36.970
are in positions of authority, which people often

00:23:36.970 --> 00:23:40.849
confuse with being equal to leadership. I think

00:23:40.849 --> 00:23:49.049
we get at this reality that power is easily utilized

00:23:49.049 --> 00:23:52.609
for negative purposes. And to your point, the

00:23:52.609 --> 00:23:57.390
impact that one individual can have on the many

00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:01.079
when they... bring together their intelligence

00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:06.660
with their power with the use of information

00:24:06.660 --> 00:24:12.039
and misinformation it can go sideways real quickly

00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:17.099
and so why why does that happen i mean we could

00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:19.740
probably go back to aristotle and socrates which

00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:21.599
i know you've done with some of your other guests

00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:26.180
This has been a line of thinking and trying to

00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:28.859
explore the reasons why for thousands of years.

00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:33.220
I'm certainly no smarter than those folks, but

00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:37.200
I think history repeats itself. And unfortunately,

00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.819
human history has a way of repeating really horrible

00:24:40.819 --> 00:24:43.779
things as much as human history demonstrates

00:24:43.779 --> 00:24:46.900
that we can rise above it. So I choose to look

00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:50.990
at how we can rise above. Instead of just assume

00:24:50.990 --> 00:24:53.809
that we're going to be stuck in a pattern of

00:24:53.809 --> 00:25:02.430
all that other stuff. I have a theory slash hope

00:25:02.430 --> 00:25:05.769
that the enemy of exactly what we talked about,

00:25:05.890 --> 00:25:09.640
you know, the tyranny of the few. would be to

00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:12.039
heal the masses and understanding generational

00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:14.759
trauma and how that contributes to all things

00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:16.759
stress, whether it's financial, whether it's

00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:20.160
relationship, whether it's unaddressed psychological

00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.480
trauma, that if you can get the masses to heal,

00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:27.299
you then empower critical thinking, which then

00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:33.339
I think would be the enemy of the tyrant. I think

00:25:33.339 --> 00:25:37.380
it's a beautiful dream. And I am of the more

00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:40.619
optimistic people you will ever meet. And unfortunately,

00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:44.940
I think you're 100 % correct that that could

00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:49.680
happen. And I want to lean on the art. There

00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.920
are some, I'm going to butcher this, but there

00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.660
is, I think it was a quote by Martin Luther King

00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:58.059
Jr. about the arc of humanity, leaning towards,

00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:03.210
bending towards good. And I believe that. And

00:26:03.210 --> 00:26:07.730
yet we see examples time and again of, in human

00:26:07.730 --> 00:26:11.529
history and in our current world, of the few,

00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:15.250
the tyranny of the few, and that the masses are

00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:20.069
not galvanizing on the side of good. And so I

00:26:20.069 --> 00:26:22.769
would love to support your theory and figure

00:26:22.769 --> 00:26:25.450
out ways. And I think I do because of how I spend

00:26:25.450 --> 00:26:29.220
the majority of my... workdays is thinking about

00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:32.700
how to mobilize the masses. I don't do it from

00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:35.359
a community organizing perspective, but I do

00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:40.140
work in the spirit of the democratization of

00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:43.839
ideas and of talents, I would say. And I think

00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:46.380
that's what we need as well, is for more people

00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:49.460
to believe that they can have a say in what the

00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:53.460
future looks like. And they do have power, contrary

00:26:53.460 --> 00:26:57.460
to perhaps the mass messages that they're receiving.

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.539
One thing that seems to be evident, and you could

00:27:01.539 --> 00:27:04.000
look at Nazi Germany, you could look at many

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.819
examples of this, but when a nation is deliberately

00:27:07.819 --> 00:27:10.180
divided, I think you get further and further

00:27:10.180 --> 00:27:12.980
away from that kindness, compassion, community

00:27:12.980 --> 00:27:16.500
that I believe is human evolution. I think that

00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:19.200
the way we evolve is closer to kindness. And

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.099
even if you look at the Bible, I'm not a devout

00:27:22.099 --> 00:27:24.240
Christian, but I've had this conversation recently.

00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.539
I feel like the Old Testament is, well, here's

00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:31.299
how not to do it. This didn't work. So here's

00:27:31.299 --> 00:27:33.119
the kindness, compassion, love, forgiveness,

00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.180
you know, that I think is going to be the future.

00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.640
I think it's a message from the past. But I feel

00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:40.480
like the people that know what they're doing,

00:27:40.539 --> 00:27:43.019
if they deliberately keep dividing a nation and

00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:45.039
pigeonholing them and setting them against each

00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.980
other, they are stopping our emotional progress.

00:27:49.930 --> 00:27:54.150
Yes, I would agree. And I think your call back

00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:57.650
to not only Nazi Germany, but any example of

00:27:57.650 --> 00:28:01.049
genocide, and in fact, any number of civil wars,

00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:03.890
you can see how people in those positions of

00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:07.529
power very deliberately chose routes to divide.

00:28:08.210 --> 00:28:10.990
It's that old saying, divide and conquer. So

00:28:10.990 --> 00:28:13.410
if you create those divisions and you reinforce

00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:19.339
those divisions, you are debilitating. individual's

00:28:19.339 --> 00:28:23.619
capacity to come together absolutely and creating

00:28:23.619 --> 00:28:27.460
those barriers can be done physically and we

00:28:27.460 --> 00:28:30.799
see examples of that today they can also be created

00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:34.740
emotionally psychically psychologically economically

00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:38.299
like so those are a whole lot of environments

00:28:38.299 --> 00:28:43.980
or arenas for division to be mastered, which

00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:46.500
makes it, I think, more complicated for how people

00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:51.259
can choose to come together. 100%. Well, let's

00:28:51.259 --> 00:28:53.599
kind of start down the road of what you're actually

00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:55.799
working with now on the leadership side in a

00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.980
lot of the organizations that you work with.

00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:00.799
From the educational road that you took, it was

00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.000
really interesting. I saw you were in a department

00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.519
based around philanthropy, which I've never seen

00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:07.819
on an academic level before. So let's start with

00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:11.740
that. What did that even look like? Great. I

00:29:11.740 --> 00:29:18.339
love bringing it into the conversation because

00:29:18.339 --> 00:29:21.079
I actually was just on a call last week speaking

00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:24.579
with someone about the power of that phase of

00:29:24.579 --> 00:29:28.680
my life. So for your listeners, the word philanthropy

00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.039
is used in a lot of different ways. And I would

00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.299
argue today it's used very narrowly to reflect

00:29:35.299 --> 00:29:39.740
the practice of giving money. I had the opportunity

00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:43.440
to work for an individual who was light years

00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.759
ahead of his time. I think he would be known

00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:49.220
as a Renaissance man. His name is Robert Payton,

00:29:49.299 --> 00:29:52.940
who, of blessed memory, made a huge difference

00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:56.420
in my life. And he made a huge difference in

00:29:56.420 --> 00:30:02.019
a lot of people's lives. his role in creating

00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:05.400
what is called now the School of Philanthropic

00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:07.940
Studies, I think, at Indiana University. At the

00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:10.099
time, it was called the Center on Philanthropy

00:30:10.099 --> 00:30:13.440
when I was a full -time professional working

00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:18.140
for him and working for that center as an adjacent

00:30:18.140 --> 00:30:24.180
role. What we were looking at was how do we make

00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:28.980
ourselves agents of positive change for the good

00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:36.059
of humanity. And his approach to the work in

00:30:36.059 --> 00:30:38.640
philanthropy was to broaden people's conception

00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:45.880
of what does it mean to engage in Whether it

00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.359
is about raising money or perhaps it's about

00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:50.740
raising consciousness, perhaps it's about bringing

00:30:50.740 --> 00:30:53.740
people together, perhaps it's about how you approach

00:30:53.740 --> 00:30:59.380
education. How do we build into our ways of being,

00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.440
not just in this country, but across the globe,

00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.960
a recognition that our responsibility is not

00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.579
just to ourselves or our communities, it's to

00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:14.630
all of humanity. Making choices in favor of the

00:31:14.630 --> 00:31:17.650
common good, for instance, over an individual

00:31:17.650 --> 00:31:23.089
good was one of his mantras, I would argue. And

00:31:23.089 --> 00:31:27.009
he had a lot of very pithy ways of communicating.

00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:30.430
He was a public teacher and he advocated for

00:31:30.430 --> 00:31:34.430
all of his students. He had a couple of academic

00:31:34.430 --> 00:31:37.569
programs that he ran and then he had a whole

00:31:37.569 --> 00:31:40.609
lot of what we now call mentoring relationships.

00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.500
where he advocated that we all become public

00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:49.359
teachers so that we embark on this journey of

00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.619
doing good for the greater whole, no matter what

00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:56.000
your particular profession or sector was. So

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.240
he influenced doctors and lawyers and teachers

00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:09.500
and public servants of any ilk. And generically,

00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.140
he would say, you have the opportunity to do

00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:15.619
good for others. Leverage that. So whatever your

00:32:15.619 --> 00:32:18.619
platform is, whether you're a middle school teacher

00:32:18.619 --> 00:32:23.839
or you're a court appointed defense attorney

00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:27.460
or you whatever the role was, you always have

00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:32.099
a choice where you can do better for the public

00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:34.740
good, for the common good. And that was really

00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:38.160
his approach to this word philanthropy. And so

00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.420
I had the privilege of working very closely with

00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:45.180
him for two and a half years. And it was an instrumental

00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:47.740
time of my life. I was in my late 20s. I was

00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:52.160
working on my PhD. At the time, I thought I was

00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:54.220
going to go into higher education and stay in

00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:56.599
higher education. And he really challenged me

00:32:56.599 --> 00:32:59.920
to consider. How might I become a public teacher

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:02.640
outside of higher education, which is, in fact,

00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:06.140
what I have done, keeping one foot sort of in

00:33:06.140 --> 00:33:08.420
higher ed, but really spending the majority of

00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:10.759
the last 25 years outside of higher education,

00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.539
really goes back to my time with him, where he

00:33:13.539 --> 00:33:17.640
emphasized that if I'm truly committed to this

00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:20.880
thing called leadership, why am I limiting it

00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:25.390
to college students? College students at the

00:33:25.390 --> 00:33:28.589
time were my primary source of interest and passion.

00:33:30.089 --> 00:33:33.390
Working with him, I discovered that there is

00:33:33.390 --> 00:33:37.529
this part of our world called civil society or

00:33:37.529 --> 00:33:40.230
the third sector or the nonprofit sector, the

00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:41.829
nongovernmental sector. There are a whole lot

00:33:41.829 --> 00:33:45.589
of labels for it. Regardless of what you want

00:33:45.589 --> 00:33:48.349
to call it, there are individuals and organizations

00:33:48.349 --> 00:33:52.769
and systems that are trying to do right by the

00:33:52.769 --> 00:33:56.390
entire population. So filling in the gaps where

00:33:56.390 --> 00:33:59.029
government and business are not taking care of

00:33:59.029 --> 00:34:04.309
the whole, this other large community is focused

00:34:04.309 --> 00:34:07.710
on how do we take care of the whole. And so that

00:34:07.710 --> 00:34:14.909
shift of thinking for me was. It was a tremendous

00:34:14.909 --> 00:34:18.130
paradigm shift, frankly, to move from thinking

00:34:18.130 --> 00:34:21.010
in a very isolated way about how do I impact

00:34:21.010 --> 00:34:23.590
the lives of college students and higher education

00:34:23.590 --> 00:34:28.630
in America to how do I embrace all people who

00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:30.630
are interested in making a difference in their

00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:33.250
world through the lens of leadership, no matter

00:34:33.250 --> 00:34:35.369
where they live, no matter what they do, no matter

00:34:35.369 --> 00:34:38.510
how old they are. So he really opened up for

00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:44.760
me and created a much... broader view and we

00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:48.079
were happily engaged in doing this with people

00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:53.599
of a whole whole range you know from post -baccalaureate

00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:55.940
students who were in a fellowship program with

00:34:55.940 --> 00:34:59.659
him for a year or two years to folks in central

00:34:59.659 --> 00:35:02.340
and eastern europe who were trying to create

00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:08.940
democratic civil society beautiful when I discuss

00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.840
higher education having got my degree in exercise

00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:14.079
physiology, which is kind of split. I did my

00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:16.659
first two years in London, my last two here in

00:35:16.659 --> 00:35:20.440
Florida. And then my wife has gone through a

00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:25.000
med school program. I see a lot of the inefficiencies,

00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:29.000
the unneeded prerequisites, the hyperinflation

00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.400
of the fees for students, et cetera, et cetera.

00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:35.400
But where it's very glaring, ironically, in marketing

00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:38.710
as well, but in leadership, In my profession

00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:42.110
of first responders, we have people who pursue

00:35:42.110 --> 00:35:45.090
pieces of paper, but there doesn't seem to be

00:35:45.090 --> 00:35:48.190
actual leadership gleaned at the end of that

00:35:48.190 --> 00:35:51.070
particular track. I would imagine that this mentor

00:35:51.070 --> 00:35:53.369
that you had had kind of witnessed that himself

00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:58.750
and tried to. to lean into the altruistic part

00:35:58.750 --> 00:36:00.449
of leadership that I would argue is the most

00:36:00.449 --> 00:36:03.949
important part in my profession. What were the

00:36:03.949 --> 00:36:07.710
disconnects back then that even initiated the

00:36:07.710 --> 00:36:11.570
program that he started? So I think one of the

00:36:11.570 --> 00:36:13.750
disconnects, which is actually where I thought

00:36:13.750 --> 00:36:16.030
you were going with your own critique of higher

00:36:16.030 --> 00:36:23.030
education, was the division between thinking

00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:26.820
and doing. So one of the disconnects he found

00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:30.380
was there was no practice of the ideas. There

00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:32.599
was no practice putting into the practice the

00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:35.659
values and the virtues that were being studied.

00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:41.199
So one of the core components of this baccalaureate

00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.219
program, post -baccalaureate program that he

00:36:43.219 --> 00:36:46.599
created, was that every student would work full

00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:51.389
time in a local nonprofit organization. So that

00:36:51.389 --> 00:36:53.210
whatever they were learning in the classroom,

00:36:53.389 --> 00:36:56.670
they then had to experience and practice in the

00:36:56.670 --> 00:36:59.210
work setting. So it's all well and good to talk

00:36:59.210 --> 00:37:02.710
about collaboration, to talk about service, to

00:37:02.710 --> 00:37:05.349
talk about values -based decision -making. Those

00:37:05.349 --> 00:37:09.269
were all elements of the curriculum. It's a whole

00:37:09.269 --> 00:37:13.610
other thing to actually do those in a work setting.

00:37:13.829 --> 00:37:17.090
And the connection that I made because I was

00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:19.929
working for him, not taking that curriculum,

00:37:20.809 --> 00:37:23.409
Although because I worked for him, I was taking

00:37:23.409 --> 00:37:26.170
the curriculum. My own formal curriculum was

00:37:26.170 --> 00:37:28.969
in higher education and organizational development

00:37:28.969 --> 00:37:32.190
and organizational behavior. And I was using

00:37:32.190 --> 00:37:36.710
my filter of leadership. And I saw so much of

00:37:36.710 --> 00:37:40.730
the principle -based learning that he was advocating,

00:37:40.949 --> 00:37:45.530
creating the bridge from. Well, if you're going

00:37:45.530 --> 00:37:47.869
to learn it, you've got to do it. And if you've

00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:50.329
learned it, you're also going to be talking with

00:37:50.329 --> 00:37:54.250
people about it. So how do you demonstrate in

00:37:54.250 --> 00:37:58.469
action that which you believe? And I think most

00:37:58.469 --> 00:38:04.250
programs in any formal educational setting fail

00:38:04.250 --> 00:38:07.570
to make that leap from what you know and what

00:38:07.570 --> 00:38:12.630
you think you know to how do you do you. And

00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:16.010
there's... very little practice space provided

00:38:16.010 --> 00:38:20.050
to students. So skills -based learning in the

00:38:20.050 --> 00:38:23.730
classroom is often done at best in a laboratory

00:38:23.730 --> 00:38:26.710
setting, which you and I both know is not real

00:38:26.710 --> 00:38:29.869
world. And it's better than not practicing at

00:38:29.869 --> 00:38:32.869
all, but even better is to practice. So I would

00:38:32.869 --> 00:38:35.809
say he was at the forefront of the internship

00:38:35.809 --> 00:38:41.269
co -op. as being integral to a productive education.

00:38:41.630 --> 00:38:49.590
I think the other disconnect that he addressed

00:38:49.590 --> 00:38:54.349
was this notion that you mentioned earlier about

00:38:54.349 --> 00:38:58.789
human history, that we can look at modernity,

00:38:58.809 --> 00:39:01.840
we can look at current events. And if we don't

00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:04.179
take into consideration where we have come from,

00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:07.260
we're really never going to understand modernity.

00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:09.099
We're not going to understand current events.

00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:11.699
So it's really important to know the past, to

00:39:11.699 --> 00:39:14.639
be intelligent about the present so that we can

00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:19.179
impact the future. And so I would say that was

00:39:19.179 --> 00:39:21.639
probably the second major disconnect that he

00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:27.000
was addressing was how do we broaden the ways

00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:29.630
in which we understand today? through the lens

00:39:29.630 --> 00:39:32.710
of the past and through different perspectives

00:39:32.710 --> 00:39:36.389
on the past. So just as much as he would have

00:39:36.389 --> 00:39:39.590
someone, he would assign a reading, let's say

00:39:39.590 --> 00:39:41.789
on one end of the political spectrum, he would

00:39:41.789 --> 00:39:43.510
assign a reading on the other end of the political

00:39:43.510 --> 00:39:46.989
spectrum or to your point about the holy books.

00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:51.550
If he's going to be educating about this public

00:39:51.550 --> 00:39:54.630
servant notion and where does the notion of service

00:39:54.630 --> 00:39:57.190
come from? Well, that's from our religious traditions.

00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:00.530
And rather than just presenting it from a Christian

00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:03.429
tradition, which is the tendency in this country,

00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:06.289
because that's the predominant religious orientation,

00:40:06.670 --> 00:40:10.030
he would bring in alternative views. He would

00:40:10.030 --> 00:40:12.230
have people read from the Quran. He would have

00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:16.070
people read from the Buddha or from Confucius

00:40:16.070 --> 00:40:19.730
or different faith traditions that he thought

00:40:19.730 --> 00:40:23.989
would be informing this human need and this human

00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:28.050
capacity to serve others. I'm glad you used the

00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:32.269
word service. In my profession, and again, there

00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:35.269
are some great leaders, true leaders in the fire

00:40:35.269 --> 00:40:39.170
service, but we are in the absolute midst of

00:40:39.170 --> 00:40:43.030
a recruitment and retention crisis. And the backstory,

00:40:43.210 --> 00:40:46.409
I would argue, is when I came on, it was very

00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:49.730
soon after 9 -11, a lot of us just signed up

00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:52.130
and went in blindly. It was very, very competitive.

00:40:52.429 --> 00:40:54.949
So if you got the opportunity to be hired by

00:40:54.949 --> 00:40:57.119
a fire department, There were no questions. You

00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.360
just said thank you. Fast forward and you start

00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.539
going to funerals and you start realizing that

00:41:02.539 --> 00:41:05.940
the way that we're being worked maybe isn't conducive

00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:07.760
to a high level of performance and longevity.

00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:14.219
If that isn't identified and changed, then you

00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:16.719
start seeing this downward spiral. And where

00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:18.820
we are now as we sit here having this conversation

00:41:18.820 --> 00:41:21.019
today is there are a lot of people in, and I'm

00:41:21.019 --> 00:41:24.699
using air quotes, leadership positions. who enjoy

00:41:24.699 --> 00:41:27.280
a 40 hour work week to go home at five o 'clock

00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.159
every night and sleep in their family home whilst

00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.800
the men and women under them are not only working

00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:36.320
a 56 hour work week now they're being forced

00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.539
to fill in the gaps and now they're working 80

00:41:38.539 --> 00:41:41.480
plus hours being forced to stay away from their

00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:45.440
families and in those situations what i see is

00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.190
is an absence of moral courage That just because

00:41:49.190 --> 00:41:52.210
you are OK, that's not what it's about, that

00:41:52.210 --> 00:41:54.170
you should be advocating for the people that

00:41:54.170 --> 00:41:56.130
are under you that you are representing. And

00:41:56.130 --> 00:42:00.250
I see a disconnect there. So as you mentioned,

00:42:00.389 --> 00:42:03.250
you can be in charge, you can be a boss. But

00:42:03.250 --> 00:42:05.269
to me, a true leader is someone that's going

00:42:05.269 --> 00:42:08.289
to affect change, even if it doesn't benefit

00:42:08.289 --> 00:42:13.010
them in any way, shape or form. I would say especially

00:42:13.010 --> 00:42:16.559
when it doesn't benefit them. is when you find

00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:20.420
the most influential demonstrations of leadership

00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:25.019
and the most effective forms of leadership is

00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:28.880
when it does have, when that person's moral courage

00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:34.420
is saying you rise above your own ego and you

00:42:34.420 --> 00:42:38.780
rise above your own rewards so that you're actually

00:42:38.780 --> 00:42:42.800
sacrificing for the betterment of all. And it

00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:45.699
goes to this. fundamental definition of philanthropy,

00:42:45.940 --> 00:42:49.599
the love of humankind, that when you think about

00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:52.440
those in positions of leadership, and you have

00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:56.800
examples of how leadership is defined, that is

00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:59.679
aligned to what you're saying. You have just,

00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:04.820
unfortunately, more examples of just make it

00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:07.099
to the top and you get all the goods, and then

00:43:07.099 --> 00:43:09.900
you'll be good at being a leader. And that's

00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:13.139
the kind of writing around and talking about

00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:16.719
leadership that just curdles my blood, because

00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:18.860
that's not leadership. That's the manipulation

00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:21.760
of power. And that's the use of authority for

00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:24.639
personal gain. That's not what leadership is.

00:43:24.860 --> 00:43:28.059
So having had the privilege of working with some

00:43:28.059 --> 00:43:32.619
folks in the fire service, I was really struck

00:43:32.619 --> 00:43:38.860
by the unwavering commitment to improve the lives

00:43:38.860 --> 00:43:41.880
of others. And this was the first population

00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:45.079
of individuals who I had the privilege of working

00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.219
with who literally were putting their lives on

00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:49.460
the line because that's what it means to be a

00:43:49.460 --> 00:43:52.800
first responder, is that you are literally willing

00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.260
to sacrifice your life for someone else. And

00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:59.239
I couldn't help but think that during the couple

00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:02.400
of days that I spent with these two teams in

00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.480
the fire service, that there are no better examples

00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:10.210
of what. a commitment to leadership looks like

00:44:10.210 --> 00:44:13.269
than in the fire service. Now, whether it's the

00:44:13.269 --> 00:44:15.949
practice or not is what you're saying, that in

00:44:15.949 --> 00:44:17.969
the practice of leadership, you see the difference

00:44:17.969 --> 00:44:20.530
between those who are taking advantage of their

00:44:20.530 --> 00:44:23.090
positions of power and authority and those who

00:44:23.090 --> 00:44:27.289
are leveraging them for the good that can come.

00:44:27.949 --> 00:44:30.409
You see this in lots of other sectors, but I

00:44:30.409 --> 00:44:34.610
think it's particularly stark and frankly painful

00:44:34.610 --> 00:44:38.340
in the fire service because of the stress and

00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:41.860
of the pain that people are experiencing in their

00:44:41.860 --> 00:44:44.639
fulfillment of what they see as their calling.

00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.119
So the need for effective leadership, I think,

00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.860
is even greater in the first responder community.

00:44:52.059 --> 00:44:54.440
Yeah, no, it is. I mean, I feel it's exactly

00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:58.619
that. It exasperates the chasm because when we

00:44:58.619 --> 00:45:02.079
first towed the line at the beginning. Selfless,

00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:05.199
courageous service is exactly what our entire

00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:08.699
ethos is. So then when you have the abandonment

00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:10.920
of that as someone maybe climbs a particular

00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:15.139
career ladder, that is the ultimate organizational

00:45:15.139 --> 00:45:18.039
betrayal, which, you know, ironically, as we're

00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:20.659
learning now from psychology is incredibly detrimental

00:45:20.659 --> 00:45:23.179
to the mental health of the people that serve

00:45:23.179 --> 00:45:27.000
under you. Right, right. And I think it's not.

00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:30.280
difficult to also say by extension, you're really

00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:32.960
damaging the organization's health. So it's an

00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.260
interesting perspective to take. What is it in

00:45:36.260 --> 00:45:39.559
human nature that causes us to work against our

00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:41.840
own self -interest and the betterment of the

00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.900
whole? And yet there are so many examples of

00:45:44.900 --> 00:45:50.659
people doing that. You're in this academic space.

00:45:50.780 --> 00:45:54.039
What was some of the first organizations, institutions

00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:57.179
that you started working with as a mentor now?

00:46:00.340 --> 00:46:04.420
Do you mean from when I was at the Center on

00:46:04.420 --> 00:46:08.619
Philanthropy or more recently? At what point

00:46:08.619 --> 00:46:10.920
in my career are you thinking? Yeah, but I mean,

00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:13.000
once you started kind of reaching out of actually

00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.099
being the student yourself, where was some of

00:46:15.099 --> 00:46:17.019
the first kind of, you know, professions or organizations

00:46:17.019 --> 00:46:21.420
that you started impacting? So I think early

00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:27.059
on, because my focus started out as the ways

00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:31.199
in which we can impact young people as they go

00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:33.920
through their higher education experience. I

00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:37.780
started out in a very traditional sense. identifying

00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:41.820
institutions of higher learning so colleges and

00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:44.920
universities that were committed to the healthy

00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:46.920
development of their young people and frankly

00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:49.820
that's why I went and got a PhD was because I

00:46:49.820 --> 00:46:53.320
wanted to be a part of the change that would

00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:56.559
help colleges and universities remember and prioritize

00:46:56.559 --> 00:47:00.159
the healthy growth and development of young people

00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:05.880
because if we're not fostering their growth then

00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:07.820
what's the point of a college or a university?

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.880
I think that question is particularly relevant

00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:15.280
today, frankly, because it's become more of a

00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:18.679
business than a calling. But at the time, back

00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:23.320
when I first was... At the outset of my career,

00:47:23.420 --> 00:47:26.019
I would say I was very much within the walls

00:47:26.019 --> 00:47:28.940
of higher education. So I was working at different

00:47:28.940 --> 00:47:31.820
colleges and universities, and I was starting

00:47:31.820 --> 00:47:34.679
then to see that there were a lot of organizations

00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:37.380
that were adjacent to colleges and universities.

00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.699
So when we think about the activities that students

00:47:40.699 --> 00:47:44.800
are involved in on campus, I started to work

00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.849
with athletic organizations. And I started to

00:47:47.849 --> 00:47:50.010
work with fraternities and sororities. And I

00:47:50.010 --> 00:47:52.789
started to work with service organizations that

00:47:52.789 --> 00:47:57.469
had membership of college students. So trying

00:47:57.469 --> 00:48:02.369
to help them figure out their best ways of. cultivating

00:48:02.369 --> 00:48:05.550
the talent of young people and designing systems

00:48:05.550 --> 00:48:08.349
and structures that would be supportive of their

00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:11.070
healthy growth and development. Because again,

00:48:11.190 --> 00:48:14.110
I think the pressure to run a business, no matter

00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:16.650
what your mission statement says, or no matter

00:48:16.650 --> 00:48:21.199
what your vision is, there are some The unfortunate

00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:24.099
forces that I think come into play when you realize,

00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:26.199
oh, we've got a good thing started, but now in

00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:28.780
order to stay afloat, we have to build the business.

00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:31.260
Well, as soon as you start prioritizing numbers

00:48:31.260 --> 00:48:34.159
over people, that's always when I get concerned.

00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:38.039
So I was trying to work with organizations that

00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:41.280
were in support of the higher education system.

00:48:43.309 --> 00:48:45.710
While I was working at the Center on Philanthropy,

00:48:45.710 --> 00:48:47.670
that's when I started to see, oh, wait a minute,

00:48:47.829 --> 00:48:50.250
if I'm doing all of this on the college campus

00:48:50.250 --> 00:48:52.630
and with organizations that are coming onto the

00:48:52.630 --> 00:48:55.329
college campus, why aren't I doing this for the

00:48:55.329 --> 00:48:58.030
broader community called the nonprofit sector,

00:48:58.389 --> 00:49:02.269
called those organizations that are mission -driven

00:49:02.269 --> 00:49:06.030
and fueled by the passion of those working in

00:49:06.030 --> 00:49:09.289
the organizations, but those individuals often

00:49:09.289 --> 00:49:13.670
are lacking in... well, what does it take to

00:49:13.670 --> 00:49:16.349
lead an organization? How do you change the minds

00:49:16.349 --> 00:49:20.110
of others? How do you galvanize a community around

00:49:20.110 --> 00:49:26.429
a particular calling that you feel your organization

00:49:26.429 --> 00:49:28.510
is here to sponsor? So if you're trying to end

00:49:28.510 --> 00:49:32.590
homelessness, there's a very powerful community

00:49:32.590 --> 00:49:35.010
of individuals who are passionate about ending

00:49:35.010 --> 00:49:38.099
homelessness. They may not have... the skill

00:49:38.099 --> 00:49:40.960
set to influence others, which is inherently

00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.840
what leadership is about. So I started to then

00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:46.599
broaden out into the nonprofit sector. And I

00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:50.300
would say, James, I spent about 20 years almost

00:49:50.300 --> 00:49:53.619
exclusively spending my professional working

00:49:53.619 --> 00:49:56.840
hours, whatever they may be, morning, noon, night,

00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:01.980
weekends, holidays, between higher education

00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:05.260
and the nonprofit sector. And it's only very

00:50:05.260 --> 00:50:08.260
recently that I've realized. and had the opportunity

00:50:08.260 --> 00:50:12.380
to extend then into the public sector and government

00:50:12.380 --> 00:50:16.679
as well as business. So it's been kind of starting

00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.320
with the higher education space, nonprofit space,

00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:22.880
then into some of those other spaces. I want

00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:24.400
to go to the nonprofit space because that in

00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:26.960
itself is a very interesting area. But just before

00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:30.980
we do, I saw this on social media, so I'm taking

00:50:30.980 --> 00:50:33.769
it with a pinch of salt, but I saw... Something

00:50:33.769 --> 00:50:36.409
saying that in the, I think it was as late as

00:50:36.409 --> 00:50:40.110
the 80s, a student could work during the summer

00:50:40.110 --> 00:50:43.170
and earn enough money for them to pay for college

00:50:43.170 --> 00:50:46.190
for the rest of the year. My wife just graduated

00:50:46.190 --> 00:50:48.570
med school with almost a million dollars worth

00:50:48.570 --> 00:50:51.539
of debt this last year. Big difference between

00:50:51.539 --> 00:50:53.340
those two statements. And obviously, med school

00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:55.400
is always going to be a little bit more. What

00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:58.039
have we seen as far as the devolution of the

00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:02.679
affordability of education for our future workforce?

00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:08.199
Yeah. Well, you cannot mathematically make it

00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:11.179
work as an undergraduate student today to work

00:51:11.179 --> 00:51:13.980
your way through college. And I think it maybe

00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:17.300
is even as late as the early 90s. You could still

00:51:17.300 --> 00:51:20.849
work your way through college. And now the price

00:51:20.849 --> 00:51:25.329
of higher education has gone beyond an individual's

00:51:25.329 --> 00:51:29.670
earning capacity so that the equation inherently

00:51:29.670 --> 00:51:33.550
puts you in debt if you don't come from a family

00:51:33.550 --> 00:51:37.570
of privilege who had set up the 529 plan when

00:51:37.570 --> 00:51:40.449
you were born so that you could afford college.

00:51:40.510 --> 00:51:44.909
I want to say that... Don't quote me on this.

00:51:44.989 --> 00:51:47.030
So maybe this is something that you won't include.

00:51:47.289 --> 00:51:50.010
But I want to say that the average price of a

00:51:50.010 --> 00:51:54.809
traditional four -year degree is no less than

00:51:54.809 --> 00:51:59.989
$800 ,000. And students can't earn that. A traditional

00:51:59.989 --> 00:52:02.050
age student or a non -traditional age student

00:52:02.050 --> 00:52:05.469
cannot earn that. So yes, med school is above

00:52:05.469 --> 00:52:09.159
and beyond. The four -year degree itself has

00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:13.420
moved out of reach of the majority of the student

00:52:13.420 --> 00:52:15.920
population. Thank goodness we have the community

00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:20.239
college system. where not only two -year associate's

00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:22.460
degrees are offered, but tremendously powerful

00:52:22.460 --> 00:52:25.840
job certification programs are happening, as

00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.960
well as some four -year degrees are being offered

00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:32.719
at community colleges, which remain the most

00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:35.639
accessible and the most affordable. So students

00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:38.980
still can work during the summer and the school

00:52:38.980 --> 00:52:41.880
year and afford a two -year degree or one of

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:44.380
those certification programs. But the traditional

00:52:44.380 --> 00:52:47.809
bachelor's degree is out of reach. Yeah. And

00:52:47.809 --> 00:52:50.710
I think there's a reckoning coming for higher

00:52:50.710 --> 00:52:53.809
education. My son's going to he was going to

00:52:53.809 --> 00:52:56.030
go to Utah State. He got accepted. But again,

00:52:56.110 --> 00:52:58.030
on paper, it just made no sense. So he's doing

00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:00.030
his first two years here, still living at home,

00:53:00.110 --> 00:53:02.369
going to community college. And then, you know,

00:53:02.389 --> 00:53:04.789
he's going to do the second two in Utah, which

00:53:04.789 --> 00:53:07.489
the transfer. Yeah. And it's actually a very

00:53:07.489 --> 00:53:09.889
inexpensive school compared to I went to University

00:53:09.889 --> 00:53:12.289
of Florida. Insane. Like you said, my degree

00:53:12.289 --> 00:53:15.360
was sixty thousand dollars. So, yeah, absolutely

00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:18.699
lunacy. But but yeah, so there are ways of making

00:53:18.699 --> 00:53:21.039
it more efficient. But I mean, it seems to me

00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.739
that we're first. Firstly, you have these prerequisites

00:53:23.739 --> 00:53:25.559
that make no sense. The number of high level

00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.480
math classes my wife had to do to be an optometrist

00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:31.780
was was complete lunacy. I mean, she's not, you

00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:33.460
know, sending people to the moon. She's checking

00:53:33.460 --> 00:53:35.880
your eyes. This is a lot more anatomy and physiology

00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:39.599
than than high level physics. But then, you know,

00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:43.449
the like you said, just the price. I mean, there's

00:53:43.449 --> 00:53:46.269
got to be fewer and fewer sections of society

00:53:46.269 --> 00:53:49.309
that are able to get this education. So from

00:53:49.309 --> 00:53:52.650
a wasted resource of some of these prereqs, I

00:53:52.650 --> 00:53:54.829
think trade schools do a very good job eliminating

00:53:54.829 --> 00:53:57.929
this one conversation. But also, and I'd love

00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:00.070
to get your thought on this, where did this come

00:54:00.070 --> 00:54:02.809
from? How do we get from, you know, a lot of

00:54:02.809 --> 00:54:05.269
the places around the world give their nation

00:54:05.269 --> 00:54:08.110
free education, India, for example, if I'm not

00:54:08.110 --> 00:54:11.920
mistaken. And yet we have probably the most expensive

00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:17.599
education system on the planet. It's a great

00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:20.099
question. I think there was a time when I would

00:54:20.099 --> 00:54:22.059
have been able to answer that question, but I've

00:54:22.059 --> 00:54:24.800
been so removed from the study of higher education.

00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:28.760
What I would say is I think you could extrapolate

00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:32.840
and say, just like so many other systems in our

00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:39.840
country have become tremendously focused on economics

00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:45.179
and the viability of an entity has gone beyond

00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:49.000
its original design. And so I think if we were

00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:51.039
to look at the roots of higher education where,

00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:56.079
granted, originally only the privileged few could

00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:59.199
attend and you had to be in the higher class,

00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:03.099
the upper class, in order to attend Socrates

00:55:03.099 --> 00:55:08.400
seminars. When Socrates gathered people, he was

00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:10.460
not gathering people from across the community.

00:55:10.659 --> 00:55:13.679
He was gathering the most wealthy and the most

00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:16.900
privileged. And so in some ways, you could say,

00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:18.699
well, actually, higher education is the same

00:55:18.699 --> 00:55:20.960
today as it was then. It's only for the privileged

00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:24.980
few. But we've created a business that has provided

00:55:24.980 --> 00:55:29.280
this camouflage of it's available to everyone.

00:55:30.889 --> 00:55:34.030
I think that oversimplifies. I think there was

00:55:34.030 --> 00:55:37.570
an incredibly important time in the United States

00:55:37.570 --> 00:55:41.409
with the GI Bill, for instance, where government

00:55:41.409 --> 00:55:45.110
took a very deliberate step to create access

00:55:45.110 --> 00:55:47.570
to higher education, and then it was affordable.

00:55:47.789 --> 00:55:51.489
And then literally anyone could attend a four

00:55:51.489 --> 00:55:53.690
-year degree -granting institution, and they

00:55:53.690 --> 00:55:56.230
could make it through that four -year degree

00:55:56.230 --> 00:55:58.829
-granting institution, even if they didn't come

00:55:58.829 --> 00:56:02.090
from money. So I would say instead of it being

00:56:02.090 --> 00:56:05.269
a straight line from ancient Greece, it's been

00:56:05.269 --> 00:56:11.150
more of a roller coaster of experiences around

00:56:11.150 --> 00:56:14.610
access and affordability. I think the ongoing

00:56:14.610 --> 00:56:18.269
challenge today is that while someone might get

00:56:18.269 --> 00:56:21.469
into school, might get into a college or university,

00:56:21.750 --> 00:56:25.409
they can't afford to stay in. So you look at

00:56:25.409 --> 00:56:30.250
the compounding pressures of The reducing population,

00:56:30.610 --> 00:56:34.369
because we actually have a population of college

00:56:34.369 --> 00:56:36.789
going students that is lower than what it used

00:56:36.789 --> 00:56:40.050
to be. So the system is designed for more people

00:56:40.050 --> 00:56:43.909
than who currently can get there or literally

00:56:43.909 --> 00:56:45.929
could get there. And then when you add the economic

00:56:45.929 --> 00:56:48.869
challenges on top, that's even fewer people.

00:56:49.010 --> 00:56:51.070
So we have too many colleges and universities

00:56:51.070 --> 00:56:54.550
for the population as it's currently designed.

00:56:54.590 --> 00:56:58.719
So we're creating new pathways. More and more

00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:03.480
institutions have opportunities for adults to

00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:07.340
return to get their bachelor's degree. In theory,

00:57:07.460 --> 00:57:11.800
they've created mechanisms like giving academic

00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:15.039
credit for work experience. So to your point,

00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:17.780
maybe you're 10 years into your career and you

00:57:17.780 --> 00:57:19.760
decide you want to go back and get your four

00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.360
year degree. There are some institutions that

00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:25.840
now will give you a pass on some of those prerequisites

00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:28.190
because you've. demonstrated in the workplace.

00:57:28.530 --> 00:57:32.550
But those are not sufficient to address the financial

00:57:32.550 --> 00:57:35.889
challenges. So we have a financial model of an

00:57:35.889 --> 00:57:40.949
organization or of a system that just isn't sustainable

00:57:40.949 --> 00:57:45.389
in the long run. And I think we have institutional

00:57:45.389 --> 00:57:49.789
leadership, frankly, that is losing touch with

00:57:49.789 --> 00:57:52.789
the purpose of higher education. So as higher

00:57:52.789 --> 00:57:55.860
ed has become a bigger business. We're starting

00:57:55.860 --> 00:57:58.900
to now see people in positions of leadership

00:57:58.900 --> 00:58:01.159
at those colleges and universities who actually

00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:03.139
don't understand the history of higher education.

00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:07.079
And they are coming at running an institution

00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:10.320
with a business mindset, which actually doesn't

00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:14.179
work for the educational principles of the institution.

00:58:14.380 --> 00:58:17.980
It may work for the financial needs of the institution,

00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:21.079
but it's going to be now at cross purposes with

00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:25.750
why does this institution exist? purpose of higher

00:58:25.750 --> 00:58:29.050
education. It's actually not to make money. Yet,

00:58:29.050 --> 00:58:33.989
today, most leaders would say, that's what my

00:58:33.989 --> 00:58:36.690
responsibility is, is to make sure this institution

00:58:36.690 --> 00:58:40.710
stays financially afloat. So I don't know if

00:58:40.710 --> 00:58:42.849
that answered your question, but I did get to

00:58:42.849 --> 00:58:44.929
go on a soapbox a little bit. No, it did. It

00:58:44.929 --> 00:58:46.630
did. It's interesting. I think it was the Washington

00:58:46.630 --> 00:58:50.300
Post. Well, no, the Wall Street Journal did a

00:58:50.300 --> 00:58:52.699
piece probably about six months ago now, and

00:58:52.699 --> 00:58:56.179
it was saying that Gen Z is leaning into the

00:58:56.179 --> 00:58:59.599
trades more so now than ever. And when I talk

00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:01.719
about the recruitment crisis, you know, when

00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.960
I used to Google 20 years ago or Ask Jeeves or

00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:07.719
whatever it was back then, you know, firefighting,

00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:10.659
it was like it's all heroes and babies and, you

00:59:10.659 --> 00:59:13.920
know, and. you know, mustaches and that was it,

00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:15.960
you know, and there's maybe some guides on how

00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:17.659
to ace your interview. And that was about all

00:59:17.659 --> 00:59:21.559
you could find. Now, if you Google, is it healthy

00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:23.440
to be a firefighter? You're going to have page

00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:25.880
upon page upon page on cancers and suicides and

00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:27.679
all the things. And it's not detracting from

00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:31.019
the actual position and the service and all the

00:59:31.019 --> 00:59:33.139
beautiful things. But now we get to see both

00:59:33.139 --> 00:59:35.500
sides. And I think this is what's happening with

00:59:35.500 --> 00:59:38.480
higher education, too. If someone Googles, is

00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:41.480
it worth getting a degree? Right. you know, they're

00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:42.940
going to get the honest answer. Well, hey, it's

00:59:42.940 --> 00:59:44.320
going to be tens of thousands of dollars. You

00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:46.380
get a piece of paper and it probably won't guarantee

00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:49.789
your job. Is it worthwhile being a welder? or

00:59:49.789 --> 00:59:51.789
a plumber or a carpenter, yes, you're pretty

00:59:51.789 --> 00:59:53.289
much going to be able to work the moment you

00:59:53.289 --> 00:59:55.789
get that piece of paper. So from my profession,

00:59:56.070 --> 00:59:58.489
if we don't fix the things that are broken, young

00:59:58.489 --> 01:00:00.590
people won't want to come to be firefighters

01:00:00.590 --> 01:00:03.070
anymore because they Google all the bad things.

01:00:03.349 --> 01:00:05.369
And it's the same, I think, with higher education

01:00:05.369 --> 01:00:08.010
is a good parallel, you know, like Blockbuster.

01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:09.789
If you don't change the way you do things, when

01:00:09.789 --> 01:00:12.030
you realize the writing's on the wall, you're

01:00:12.030 --> 01:00:14.940
going to collapse. Right. Well, and I think the

01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:16.780
other thing that's really interesting, at least

01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:21.019
in terms of threats to higher education, is you

01:00:21.019 --> 01:00:24.420
could also make the argument that you can learn

01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:27.780
just as much through the Internet. Yep. And there

01:00:27.780 --> 01:00:30.199
are free courses now being offered by various

01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:33.820
individuals and institutions that are provided

01:00:33.820 --> 01:00:37.960
at your fingertips through your machine. Some

01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:41.639
of them are free. And even those that cost money

01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:46.340
cost less. So why would I go to the, well, and

01:00:46.340 --> 01:00:48.420
I know the community colleges are also fighting

01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:50.880
this as well. Why go to the community college

01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:55.099
for a technical course on Excel when I can go

01:00:55.099 --> 01:00:58.579
into any number of providers online and do that

01:00:58.579 --> 01:01:02.619
same course for a quarter of the price? So the

01:01:02.619 --> 01:01:05.019
community college is being threatened now in

01:01:05.019 --> 01:01:08.199
ways that it hasn't been in the past. And the

01:01:08.199 --> 01:01:10.239
four -year institution is being threatened from

01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:14.079
all different. dimensions, including is it worth

01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:17.099
it? So do I really want to go in debt for $800

01:01:17.099 --> 01:01:21.420
,000 or a million dollars? What's the value proposition

01:01:21.420 --> 01:01:26.219
of higher education? And to your point, firefighting,

01:01:26.219 --> 01:01:32.559
I know folks who are in the police forces are

01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:34.460
finding the same challenges with recruiting.

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:38.719
Look at all of these negatives. Look at all of

01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:40.880
these risks. Why would I want to go into that?

01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:45.599
So recruitment is a huge challenge. So where

01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:49.099
do you see with this kind of lens that you have

01:01:49.099 --> 01:01:51.199
now in 2026 and all these different organizations

01:01:51.199 --> 01:01:54.219
that you work with, where is the resistance to

01:01:54.219 --> 01:01:56.980
change when you know that the way that you've

01:01:56.980 --> 01:01:59.619
done things aren't working? And I'm very blunt.

01:01:59.780 --> 01:02:02.460
Our graveyards are full of data on how not to

01:02:02.460 --> 01:02:07.059
do it. Why do we find so much resistance? And

01:02:07.059 --> 01:02:09.539
I can testify to this personally, the number,

01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:11.920
the amount of pushback I've had when I've created

01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:15.320
so many, let's say I've, I've found so many people

01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:17.199
that have the solutions, brought them onto the

01:02:17.199 --> 01:02:19.840
show, you know, shared papers. I mean, all these

01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:21.760
different things, put it on a silver platter

01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:25.320
for $0 and there's still so much pushback shown

01:02:25.320 --> 01:02:27.380
where the money is downstream with the wasted

01:02:27.380 --> 01:02:29.900
overtime and lack of retention and workman's

01:02:29.900 --> 01:02:33.159
comp premiums and lawsuits from mistakes. And

01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:36.719
there's still, so much resistance. Where is that

01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:39.300
coming from? When you could empower someone to

01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:41.159
be the hero in their department, if they had

01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:44.559
the moral courage to just simply say, this isn't

01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:46.340
working, we need to do something different. And

01:02:46.340 --> 01:02:49.059
those guys over there have already got the answer

01:02:49.059 --> 01:02:54.000
for us. So this is when I wish I had studied

01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.500
psychology, because I think I would have a firmer

01:02:57.500 --> 01:02:59.920
foundation. What I can share with you is from

01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:04.920
my experiences and the ways in which I've gone

01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:07.059
about working with people, because this is a

01:03:07.059 --> 01:03:11.159
constant refrain that I'm hearing, which is why

01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:14.400
are people so resistant to change? If only we

01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:16.800
could get people to do this instead of this,

01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:21.199
we would be so much better off. I will say that

01:03:21.199 --> 01:03:24.679
there are some fabulous ways of understanding

01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:30.579
why humans resist change. And one of my gurus

01:03:30.579 --> 01:03:34.050
around change or the challenges of change, is

01:03:34.050 --> 01:03:39.710
William Bridges, who talks about how change actually

01:03:39.710 --> 01:03:43.150
brings about grief. Because if you're changing,

01:03:43.230 --> 01:03:45.250
that means you're saying goodbye to something

01:03:45.250 --> 01:03:48.530
or you're losing access to something. And so

01:03:48.530 --> 01:03:54.610
grief causes pain. So why choose a route that

01:03:54.610 --> 01:03:58.329
causes pain? And this is when I then look at

01:03:58.329 --> 01:04:02.590
the economists who say we are not rational actors.

01:04:03.289 --> 01:04:05.329
You know, I had this fabulous conversation with

01:04:05.329 --> 01:04:08.849
my son who majored in economics. He didn't love

01:04:08.849 --> 01:04:13.570
majoring in it. And I said, OK, so then what

01:04:13.570 --> 01:04:15.829
would you major in now? He's two years out from

01:04:15.829 --> 01:04:18.150
his college experience. He's like economics.

01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:21.199
And I said, well, but why is that? He said, because

01:04:21.199 --> 01:04:24.500
everyone should understand what economics is

01:04:24.500 --> 01:04:26.579
teaching. And one of the principles that he has

01:04:26.579 --> 01:04:29.920
helped me remember from my one economics course,

01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:32.539
which, by the way, was a total disaster in my

01:04:32.539 --> 01:04:36.820
academic career. But what he talked about is

01:04:36.820 --> 01:04:41.119
how economics is great at rationalizing the expected.

01:04:41.860 --> 01:04:44.619
But we as human beings are not rational beings.

01:04:46.730 --> 01:04:50.429
We don't make rational choices. So to your point,

01:04:50.510 --> 01:04:52.769
there's all sorts of data and there's all sorts

01:04:52.769 --> 01:04:54.849
of evidence that a particular course of action

01:04:54.849 --> 01:04:57.449
is not the right course of action. And yet time

01:04:57.449 --> 01:05:00.050
and again, we choose that course of action and

01:05:00.050 --> 01:05:02.610
we get all of those costs and all of those consequences

01:05:02.610 --> 01:05:05.309
when if we had only been willing to change and

01:05:05.309 --> 01:05:08.170
try something different. But I think what gets

01:05:08.170 --> 01:05:12.000
in the way so often is fear. I think people are

01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:14.059
afraid of doing something different. They're

01:05:14.059 --> 01:05:19.159
afraid of what the consequences could be if they

01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:23.019
try to go against the norm. And so we have this

01:05:23.019 --> 01:05:26.880
tendency as human beings, I think, to stay with

01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.199
what's comfortable, even when we know it's not

01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:32.179
working. And I think about this on a very just

01:05:32.179 --> 01:05:36.980
human level of how many people do you and I know

01:05:36.980 --> 01:05:40.389
who are in jobs that are not good for them? They're

01:05:40.389 --> 01:05:42.869
not happy in them. They're not fulfilled by them.

01:05:43.130 --> 01:05:45.969
They are maybe being harmed by them, to your

01:05:45.969 --> 01:05:49.190
point, from either a mental or physical perspective.

01:05:50.010 --> 01:05:53.429
And yet, so many people are resistant to changing

01:05:53.429 --> 01:05:56.889
their jobs. Why? Well, because change is hard.

01:05:56.969 --> 01:06:00.369
Change is scary. Change is uncomfortable. And

01:06:00.369 --> 01:06:05.519
so better to know, what is it? Better to... What

01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:08.199
is that saying? The devil you know is better

01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:10.340
than the devil you don't know. Thank you. I needed

01:06:10.340 --> 01:06:13.980
that. Because we can use the other cliche. The

01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:16.219
grass isn't always greener on the other side.

01:06:16.420 --> 01:06:19.340
And so I think people are afraid, frankly. So

01:06:19.340 --> 01:06:24.519
when I think about why people don't change, I

01:06:24.519 --> 01:06:28.480
actually go to the Pixar movie Inside Out. Have

01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:31.340
you seen it? I have. Great film. Okay. One of

01:06:31.340 --> 01:06:34.559
my favorite films. Always. And I feel like it

01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:37.159
should be required viewing for every human being

01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:40.099
at various points of their lives. Like you should

01:06:40.099 --> 01:06:42.739
rewatch it. And I just think about those base

01:06:42.739 --> 01:06:46.780
emotions, you know, fear and anger. They keep

01:06:46.780 --> 01:06:50.480
us from doing a lot of really good things. Sadness.

01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:53.360
Same thing. I'm not saying those are always bad

01:06:53.360 --> 01:06:55.519
emotions. We have good reasons to feel those

01:06:55.519 --> 01:07:01.639
emotions. I think lean into the comfort of what

01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:05.679
isn't working out of fear of trying something

01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:08.739
new. Because what if it doesn't work also? Then

01:07:08.739 --> 01:07:10.840
we're just back where we started. So it's that

01:07:10.840 --> 01:07:13.579
you've extended all that effort for nothing.

01:07:13.900 --> 01:07:18.440
And so I think there is this unfortunate pessimism

01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:21.380
that kicks into people's minds when they think

01:07:21.380 --> 01:07:25.099
about change. And they see the bad stuff. So

01:07:25.099 --> 01:07:27.500
you've been quoting social media. I'm not a big

01:07:27.500 --> 01:07:30.579
user of social media, but I'm trying to do more

01:07:30.579 --> 01:07:32.820
of it, which you probably don't hear very many

01:07:32.820 --> 01:07:36.239
people say. But I feel like sometimes I'm missing

01:07:36.239 --> 01:07:38.380
what's going on in the world around me because

01:07:38.380 --> 01:07:40.960
I'm not on social media enough. So I'm trying

01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:44.719
to be there more. And I saw this great meme that

01:07:44.719 --> 01:07:47.659
said, if we can overanalyze what goes wrong in

01:07:47.659 --> 01:07:49.900
our lives, why don't we overanalyze what goes

01:07:49.900 --> 01:07:53.880
well or what goes right? But I think we have

01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:56.239
a human tendency to focus on the negative, which

01:07:56.239 --> 01:07:59.820
is why people don't change. That's oversimplifying

01:07:59.820 --> 01:08:03.119
it. There's a quote I heard someone say quite

01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:06.739
a while ago now, and it's spot on. It's choose

01:08:06.739 --> 01:08:10.340
your heart. So if you use being overweight, for

01:08:10.340 --> 01:08:13.820
example, yes, going to the gym is hard. Yes,

01:08:13.860 --> 01:08:17.619
making certain dietary changes is hard. But carrying

01:08:17.619 --> 01:08:20.890
around 50 pounds of weight. all day, every day

01:08:20.890 --> 01:08:23.670
is also hard. So once you acknowledge either

01:08:23.670 --> 01:08:27.569
way is going to be hard, why not do the thing

01:08:27.569 --> 01:08:29.810
that's hard that's then going to benefit you?

01:08:29.869 --> 01:08:32.850
And you're going to have this healthier life

01:08:32.850 --> 01:08:33.850
and you're going to be able to play with your

01:08:33.850 --> 01:08:35.930
kids and you're going to have longevity. And

01:08:35.930 --> 01:08:38.789
the same with these courageous decisions that

01:08:38.789 --> 01:08:40.729
are needed to turn the ship around in the first

01:08:40.729 --> 01:08:43.390
responder professions. Yes, it's going to be

01:08:43.390 --> 01:08:45.649
a hard conversation to go to your city or county

01:08:45.649 --> 01:08:47.729
and say, look, downstream, here's all this money

01:08:47.729 --> 01:08:49.380
we're wasting. We can't get people. people to

01:08:49.380 --> 01:08:52.100
test for us. We're losing people through suicide

01:08:52.100 --> 01:08:56.180
and cancer and all the other things. That is

01:08:56.180 --> 01:08:58.239
a hard conversation initially to put yourself

01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:01.079
out there and sell it. But it's also hard. I

01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:03.220
would hope it was hard if you truly have a heart

01:09:03.220 --> 01:09:06.399
to stand up at a pulpit in a funeral and deliver

01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:09.300
some sort of speech about why another one of

01:09:09.300 --> 01:09:12.119
your first responders just died or why a family

01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:13.939
died in your community because the fire engine

01:09:13.939 --> 01:09:16.000
that should have been there wasn't fully staffed.

01:09:16.350 --> 01:09:18.930
So in my opinion, I mean, I agree with you 100%,

01:09:18.930 --> 01:09:23.109
but really it's a position of courage. If you're

01:09:23.109 --> 01:09:25.470
going to be wearing that class A uniform with

01:09:25.470 --> 01:09:30.470
all those bugles on your collar, you are expected

01:09:30.470 --> 01:09:33.270
to be courageous the same way as me when I was

01:09:33.270 --> 01:09:35.409
simply a firefighter. I was expected to go into

01:09:35.409 --> 01:09:38.090
that burning building. And so you have to have

01:09:38.090 --> 01:09:40.270
the courage to be able to make those hard decisions.

01:09:42.529 --> 01:09:47.579
You know, I can't help but think. to one of the

01:09:47.579 --> 01:09:51.180
foundational texts that shapes how I think about

01:09:51.180 --> 01:09:53.880
leadership and how I work with people when it

01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:56.680
comes to this question of how can I be more effective

01:09:56.680 --> 01:10:01.899
in leading. And it's work by Ronald Heifetz and

01:10:01.899 --> 01:10:04.760
Marty Linsky on adaptive leadership. And the

01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:07.399
subtitle of one of their books is something like

01:10:07.399 --> 01:10:10.899
The Dangers of Leading. And I think it's because,

01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:13.199
and they write about this in the book, and I

01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:15.960
think it's very powerful, when you have a position

01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:17.840
of authority, and by the way, they talk about

01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:19.859
the difference between authority and leadership.

01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:22.979
And this is one of the reasons why I think so

01:10:22.979 --> 01:10:25.699
many of our organizations and institutions are

01:10:25.699 --> 01:10:29.039
in such bad shape, is because people collude.

01:10:30.819 --> 01:10:34.539
There's a confluence of authority and leadership,

01:10:34.619 --> 01:10:39.079
and people don't understand the difference. What

01:10:39.079 --> 01:10:42.619
often happens is people get into those positions

01:10:42.619 --> 01:10:47.300
of power and then realize, oh, this is going

01:10:47.300 --> 01:10:50.340
to be really hard. So to your point of choosing

01:10:50.340 --> 01:10:53.680
hard, they choose the easy way rather than the

01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:57.840
courageous way of standing up for what's right,

01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:01.840
let's say, from an ethical standpoint. Because

01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:07.279
it's harder to do that, they opt out or they.

01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:11.579
Choose to hope that the bad thing won't happen

01:11:11.579 --> 01:11:16.020
because it's easier. And so I like that saying,

01:11:16.159 --> 01:11:19.779
choose your heart, because I think a lot of people

01:11:19.779 --> 01:11:23.020
are looking for what's easy. And the reality

01:11:23.020 --> 01:11:26.100
is leadership is not easy. And yet there is this

01:11:26.100 --> 01:11:28.979
mythical sense that, oh, if you get to that position.

01:11:29.819 --> 01:11:31.920
Life gets easier. You don't work as many hours.

01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:36.159
Your life isn't at risk. You get to make decisions.

01:11:36.279 --> 01:11:42.060
All these ideals come to mind. When in reality,

01:11:42.180 --> 01:11:49.760
the virtue of leading is that you make hard decisions.

01:11:49.899 --> 01:11:53.560
And ideally, if you're demonstrating ethical,

01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:58.989
influential, effective leadership, Those decisions

01:11:58.989 --> 01:12:03.170
are not based on what is easiest for you. As

01:12:03.170 --> 01:12:05.310
you said earlier, you have to have the moral

01:12:05.310 --> 01:12:08.930
courage to make the decision on the principles

01:12:08.930 --> 01:12:12.130
of the organization, the values of the organization

01:12:12.130 --> 01:12:16.229
or of the profession for what's better for everybody,

01:12:16.529 --> 01:12:19.529
what's good for the whole, which goes back to

01:12:19.529 --> 01:12:24.140
my old mentor's view around philanthropy. So

01:12:24.140 --> 01:12:26.739
it sort of comes full circle. And I think this

01:12:26.739 --> 01:12:28.800
is true whether you're in the fire service or

01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:30.640
you're in higher education or you're running

01:12:30.640 --> 01:12:34.100
your own family business. One of my clients tells

01:12:34.100 --> 01:12:37.880
stories of what their experience was like running

01:12:37.880 --> 01:12:42.699
a family business and how convoluted it got because

01:12:42.699 --> 01:12:45.720
people in positions of authority made decisions

01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:48.460
that were not best for the business or the clients.

01:12:49.180 --> 01:12:51.739
They chose to do what was best for them. And

01:12:51.739 --> 01:12:53.939
what was best for them ended up running the business

01:12:53.939 --> 01:12:57.340
into the ground, which ultimately they knew was

01:12:57.340 --> 01:12:59.460
going to happen, but they couldn't make the hard

01:12:59.460 --> 01:13:02.420
choice. So they chose the easy route, which then

01:13:02.420 --> 01:13:07.840
led to the worst outcome. We know there's pretty

01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:11.420
much three groups, I would argue, in most scenarios.

01:13:11.539 --> 01:13:14.340
So for example, in the fire service, you're going

01:13:14.340 --> 01:13:16.039
to have to say at my level, you're going to have

01:13:16.039 --> 01:13:19.500
the firefighters that... despite the environment

01:13:19.500 --> 01:13:21.520
and the work hours and all those other things,

01:13:21.619 --> 01:13:23.819
they're still going to focus on trying to sleep,

01:13:23.939 --> 01:13:26.779
trying to eat well, exercising, training, taking

01:13:26.779 --> 01:13:30.560
extra classes. That's your top 10%, if you like.

01:13:30.739 --> 01:13:33.420
And the numbers obviously are, I'm just throwing

01:13:33.420 --> 01:13:36.140
numbers out there. You have the bottom 10 % who

01:13:36.140 --> 01:13:38.640
really just showed up for a paycheck and that

01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:40.239
was about it. And they're going to do the bare

01:13:40.239 --> 01:13:44.000
minimum. To be compassionate, I would say that

01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:46.140
you've got a middle group of whatever that ends

01:13:46.140 --> 01:13:48.859
up being, 80%, 60%, whatever you want to label

01:13:48.859 --> 01:13:52.039
it as, that can really kind of be swayed either

01:13:52.039 --> 01:13:54.640
way. So in the leadership point of view, in the

01:13:54.640 --> 01:13:56.140
first responder professions, you're going to

01:13:56.140 --> 01:13:58.560
have those incredible thought leaders that are

01:13:58.560 --> 01:14:00.699
morally courageous, that are the people that

01:14:00.699 --> 01:14:03.119
we're trying to model everyone else on in the

01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:05.640
fire service. You're going to have the equal

01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:07.739
and opposite. That doesn't matter how many people

01:14:07.739 --> 01:14:09.479
they lose. They still sleep soundly in their

01:14:09.479 --> 01:14:12.399
beds, I would argue, for sociopaths. And then

01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:16.239
you have the middle group. So knowing the elasticity

01:14:16.239 --> 01:14:21.640
of that group, what would you bring to these

01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:26.020
leaders through your kind of leadership principles

01:14:26.020 --> 01:14:29.359
and philosophies to break the inertia and move

01:14:29.359 --> 01:14:31.920
them towards the moral courage of making those

01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:36.279
hard decisions? Well, I think I'll go back to

01:14:36.279 --> 01:14:41.340
our initial connector, Rick Rochelle and Rob

01:14:41.340 --> 01:14:44.420
Nielsen, who run All -American Leadership, which

01:14:44.420 --> 01:14:46.800
provides leadership training in the fire service.

01:14:46.960 --> 01:14:50.000
And a core component of that curriculum, which

01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:53.560
is in alignment with how I have always run my

01:14:53.560 --> 01:14:57.279
business, is values -based decision -making and

01:14:57.279 --> 01:15:00.579
ensuring alignment from the individual through

01:15:00.579 --> 01:15:04.670
the team to the organization. on a values basis.

01:15:05.029 --> 01:15:09.069
So whether you're in the fire service or whether

01:15:09.069 --> 01:15:12.489
you're in a business or doesn't matter in a hospital

01:15:12.489 --> 01:15:18.750
setting or in the neighborhood, I think the capacity

01:15:18.750 --> 01:15:22.289
of an individual to understand what matters most

01:15:22.289 --> 01:15:25.829
and for what reason is how I think about the

01:15:25.829 --> 01:15:30.210
values basis of how we live and lead in our lives.

01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:33.619
And without a lack of clarity about what matters

01:15:33.619 --> 01:15:36.779
most, and without a lack of alignment of what

01:15:36.779 --> 01:15:40.819
matters most with how we conduct our lives, I

01:15:40.819 --> 01:15:43.699
would argue that's the fundamental truth of where

01:15:43.699 --> 01:15:46.640
we either go right or we go wrong. So having

01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:50.100
the moral courage to me comes down to, do you

01:15:50.100 --> 01:15:53.859
live in alignment with your values? I was involved

01:15:53.859 --> 01:15:56.159
with an organization, James, for many, many years

01:15:56.159 --> 01:15:58.239
called the Leadership Institute, and it still

01:15:58.239 --> 01:16:02.159
exists today. It is a six day immersive leadership

01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:05.779
program for college students trying to help them

01:16:05.779 --> 01:16:09.220
learn how to live and lead with integrity. And

01:16:09.220 --> 01:16:11.779
what I loved about that experience, and it was

01:16:11.779 --> 01:16:15.159
fundamentally transformative for me as a staff

01:16:15.159 --> 01:16:22.060
member, was this recognition that. In our daily

01:16:22.060 --> 01:16:25.920
lives, we have to choose to pay attention to

01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:29.439
our values. We all have our values. The question

01:16:29.439 --> 01:16:32.399
is, are you explicitly living with them or are

01:16:32.399 --> 01:16:35.600
they implicitly in your lives? And I think the

01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:40.279
more we can explicitly live with our values at

01:16:40.279 --> 01:16:43.199
the forefront of who we are and how we interact

01:16:43.199 --> 01:16:47.560
in the world, the more effective we can be. So

01:16:47.560 --> 01:16:50.460
if I'm thinking about those organizational leaders,

01:16:51.260 --> 01:16:54.279
In the fire service, my hope would be that there

01:16:54.279 --> 01:16:57.680
is an opportunity for them to consistently and

01:16:57.680 --> 01:17:01.199
continuously keep the values at the forefront

01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:05.159
of their minds, rather than to have those values

01:17:05.159 --> 01:17:08.239
almost become like the air we breathe where we're

01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:10.500
not thinking about it. Although the irony is

01:17:10.500 --> 01:17:12.779
in the fire service, you think about air a lot

01:17:12.779 --> 01:17:16.640
because you often don't have access to good air.

01:17:18.220 --> 01:17:22.079
In the everyday way of understanding, it's like

01:17:22.079 --> 01:17:24.960
the fish who's swimming in water and isn't conscious

01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:29.039
of the water. We can be not conscious of our

01:17:29.039 --> 01:17:33.199
values. And I think that's when we run into the

01:17:33.199 --> 01:17:35.619
biggest problems is when people aren't operating

01:17:35.619 --> 01:17:44.060
from a values, a core values basis. have worked

01:17:44.060 --> 01:17:46.340
with many, many individuals and groups over the

01:17:46.340 --> 01:17:49.899
years around values, clarification, and being

01:17:49.899 --> 01:17:52.680
conscious of your values and have been pushed

01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:55.819
on, well, what do you mean by values? Because

01:17:55.819 --> 01:17:59.060
I value money. Well, that's not a core value.

01:17:59.340 --> 01:18:02.720
Why is money important to you? Well, then you

01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:05.260
get at what the core value is. The core value

01:18:05.260 --> 01:18:08.960
is security. The core value may be stability.

01:18:09.359 --> 01:18:13.739
The core value may be love. But is it money for

01:18:13.739 --> 01:18:17.619
you or is it money for others? And then you start

01:18:17.619 --> 01:18:21.979
discerning what is the demonstration of that

01:18:21.979 --> 01:18:26.300
value. And I think if we had a way to consistently

01:18:26.300 --> 01:18:32.079
and explicitly ensure that people in positions

01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:35.479
of authority are understanding what their values

01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:38.680
are and are operating in a way that's aligned

01:18:38.680 --> 01:18:41.399
with organizational values, we would see different

01:18:41.399 --> 01:18:45.670
outcomes. That's a good segue to the nonprofit

01:18:45.670 --> 01:18:50.189
space. You have a lot of people initially that

01:18:50.189 --> 01:18:53.590
I would argue are beginning this journey of whatever

01:18:53.590 --> 01:18:56.189
their nonprofit is for the right reasons, for

01:18:56.189 --> 01:19:00.329
that philanthropy, for that altruism. Fast forward

01:19:00.329 --> 01:19:03.149
however many years, we hear stories of these

01:19:03.149 --> 01:19:06.930
large nonprofits that have these insane administrative

01:19:06.930 --> 01:19:10.600
costs. taking themselves on holidays and all

01:19:10.600 --> 01:19:12.680
kinds of things. So there's clearly a disconnect

01:19:12.680 --> 01:19:15.899
at that point. What are you seeing as far as

01:19:15.899 --> 01:19:18.579
that space? And where is that balance between

01:19:18.579 --> 01:19:22.399
obviously needing some sort of financial stability,

01:19:22.539 --> 01:19:26.300
but not letting go of the primary goal of a nonprofit?

01:19:32.979 --> 01:19:37.880
It's an interesting. because I think to your

01:19:37.880 --> 01:19:42.319
point, there is a rare example of someone who

01:19:42.319 --> 01:19:45.739
gets into the nonprofit sector who isn't coming

01:19:45.739 --> 01:19:50.779
from a motivation of kindness, compassion, care,

01:19:51.039 --> 01:19:57.800
love, understanding, virtue. I wonder if there

01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:02.329
isn't a similar progression that we actually

01:20:02.329 --> 01:20:05.029
talked about earlier in relation to higher education,

01:20:05.210 --> 01:20:12.869
that economic and financial realities start to

01:20:12.869 --> 01:20:18.189
overtake that values basis or those core motivations

01:20:18.189 --> 01:20:24.449
that started out as this is our why. And that

01:20:24.449 --> 01:20:28.390
down the road, what ends up happening as organizations

01:20:29.279 --> 01:20:32.520
expand or go to scale, whatever the term is that

01:20:32.520 --> 01:20:38.279
you want to use, people lose sight of their why.

01:20:38.979 --> 01:20:46.020
And one of the compelling exercises that I have

01:20:46.020 --> 01:20:48.699
done actually comes from, I think, Jim Collins,

01:20:48.819 --> 01:20:52.640
who talks about the five whys as a way to remind

01:20:52.640 --> 01:20:58.470
someone of what is that motivation. hazard a

01:20:58.470 --> 01:21:03.229
guess that when we see malfeasance or mismanagement

01:21:03.229 --> 01:21:08.369
in the nonprofit sector, it's often because someone

01:21:08.369 --> 01:21:11.890
has lost sight of their why. And that happens

01:21:11.890 --> 01:21:16.590
through time. It happens as people gain power

01:21:16.590 --> 01:21:20.229
because we know that power corrupts and people

01:21:20.229 --> 01:21:23.710
lose sight of what the impact of their actions

01:21:23.710 --> 01:21:27.510
and words can be on others. when they get distanced

01:21:27.510 --> 01:21:30.510
from the problem. So Bryan Stevenson talks about

01:21:30.510 --> 01:21:33.810
being proximal to the problem, being proximate

01:21:33.810 --> 01:21:39.510
to that cause, which is motivating you. If you're

01:21:39.510 --> 01:21:41.729
not familiar with Bryan Stevenson, he's behind

01:21:41.729 --> 01:21:46.250
the Equal Justice Institute and is a defense

01:21:46.250 --> 01:21:50.060
attorney for those. uh fighting the death penalty

01:21:50.060 --> 01:21:53.460
that's part of his history and what has become

01:21:53.460 --> 01:21:56.760
a very strong mantra in the non -profit community

01:21:56.760 --> 01:22:00.739
has been around how do we make sure that we are

01:22:00.739 --> 01:22:03.960
proximate to the to the problem meaning if we

01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:07.279
get far away from our cause then it's really

01:22:07.279 --> 01:22:10.819
easy to lose sight of priorities and then your

01:22:10.819 --> 01:22:14.789
decision making can get shifted into Let's say

01:22:14.789 --> 01:22:17.970
what is good for me versus what is good for our

01:22:17.970 --> 01:22:22.109
cause. When we have distance from problems, it's

01:22:22.109 --> 01:22:25.470
easier to lose sight of why am I here in the

01:22:25.470 --> 01:22:28.810
first place. It's interesting because there's

01:22:28.810 --> 01:22:32.289
a huge parallel. For example, in this recruitment

01:22:32.289 --> 01:22:35.649
crisis that we see now, there's a leaning into

01:22:35.649 --> 01:22:41.430
just filling seats. Now, an 18 -year -old. doesn't

01:22:41.430 --> 01:22:43.250
necessarily guarantee that you're going to be

01:22:43.250 --> 01:22:45.250
an effective first responder. You're just a human

01:22:45.250 --> 01:22:48.069
body sitting in that seat. And so I feel that

01:22:48.069 --> 01:22:49.989
this exactly like you said, there's a disconnect

01:22:49.989 --> 01:22:52.529
of the why. Well, why are we sending a vehicle

01:22:52.529 --> 01:22:57.029
full of three, four, you know, expert fire and

01:22:57.029 --> 01:23:00.810
EMS personnel to this building that's on fire

01:23:00.810 --> 01:23:02.930
to this medical emergency? Well, the goal is

01:23:02.930 --> 01:23:04.850
to obviously be as effective as possible and

01:23:04.850 --> 01:23:08.130
save a life. The moment that's lost in the fact

01:23:08.130 --> 01:23:10.489
of just numbers, well, how many people do we

01:23:10.489 --> 01:23:12.189
need to fill this engine? How much is the salary?

01:23:12.390 --> 01:23:15.029
Okay, well, just here we go. I think this is

01:23:15.029 --> 01:23:16.670
how we ended up with this problem now. And then

01:23:16.670 --> 01:23:19.890
locally, just to use this as an example, not

01:23:19.890 --> 01:23:22.029
only the county where I live, if they had five

01:23:22.029 --> 01:23:24.970
suicides in the last five years, they just had

01:23:24.970 --> 01:23:28.270
four firefighters arrested on a hazing, which

01:23:28.270 --> 01:23:32.939
resulted so far in 10 terminations. You filled

01:23:32.939 --> 01:23:34.920
those seats with this, you know, bottom of the

01:23:34.920 --> 01:23:36.840
barrel hiring. And I'm not saying that everyone

01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:38.159
there is bottom of the barrel. Let me be very

01:23:38.159 --> 01:23:40.579
clear. There's some great firefighters and leaders.

01:23:40.779 --> 01:23:42.380
Well, I wouldn't say leaders so much, but great

01:23:42.380 --> 01:23:45.199
firefighters in this profession. But when it

01:23:45.199 --> 01:23:47.939
comes to the philosophy and this toxic environment,

01:23:48.300 --> 01:23:51.000
you know, this is your downstream cost again.

01:23:51.119 --> 01:23:55.149
So is that, you know, is the mission. Being fulfilled

01:23:55.149 --> 01:23:57.270
at the moment, I would argue no, because there

01:23:57.270 --> 01:23:59.369
are all these issues that are costing myself,

01:23:59.710 --> 01:24:02.550
the taxpayer, millions of dollars now through

01:24:02.550 --> 01:24:05.250
all this lack of jobs and the lawsuits that I'm

01:24:05.250 --> 01:24:07.789
sure I'm going to follow through wrongful termination,

01:24:07.930 --> 01:24:11.189
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I see where

01:24:11.189 --> 01:24:14.390
we have these fire departments that are not acknowledging

01:24:14.390 --> 01:24:17.149
where they need to change is exactly like you're

01:24:17.149 --> 01:24:19.250
talking about. The people at the helm, whether

01:24:19.250 --> 01:24:21.670
it's county or city commissioners, whether it's

01:24:21.670 --> 01:24:24.819
fire chiefs, whether it's union presidents, They

01:24:24.819 --> 01:24:29.220
have completely lost the why, the very core of

01:24:29.220 --> 01:24:32.100
what we're there to do in the first place. Yeah.

01:24:32.199 --> 01:24:34.359
Well, and it's interesting that you say that

01:24:34.359 --> 01:24:38.359
because I've been spending more time with executive

01:24:38.359 --> 01:24:44.420
leaders these days. And I have found that this

01:24:44.420 --> 01:24:49.909
conversation around why. is one in which that

01:24:49.909 --> 01:24:52.829
often catches them off guard. Like, wait a minute,

01:24:52.909 --> 01:24:55.989
what are you asking me? Because the pressures

01:24:55.989 --> 01:25:00.090
that they're living with on the day -to -day

01:25:00.090 --> 01:25:07.090
pull them away from that space. So I try to remember

01:25:07.090 --> 01:25:12.270
the kindness, the compassion, the empathy in

01:25:12.270 --> 01:25:16.979
my work with them to learn what is it to be in

01:25:16.979 --> 01:25:19.180
that position of leadership. And at that executive

01:25:19.180 --> 01:25:22.060
level, you're dealing with so many stresses and

01:25:22.060 --> 01:25:28.079
strains that are seemingly urgent and important.

01:25:29.479 --> 01:25:33.939
But we know from any number of sources that when

01:25:33.939 --> 01:25:37.319
your attention is only on the urgent, then you

01:25:37.319 --> 01:25:43.060
often miss what's important. And the urgent can

01:25:43.060 --> 01:25:46.680
take so much of your energy and your bandwidth

01:25:46.680 --> 01:25:50.779
that when it comes to making those important

01:25:50.779 --> 01:25:53.060
decisions, you're taxed, like you have nothing

01:25:53.060 --> 01:25:55.680
left in the tank because you've been constantly

01:25:55.680 --> 01:26:01.789
addressing those urgent issues. I have to say,

01:26:01.909 --> 01:26:04.189
as an aside, if I was talking to someone else,

01:26:04.250 --> 01:26:06.529
I would use the analogy of you're constantly

01:26:06.529 --> 01:26:09.369
putting out fires as opposed to dealing with

01:26:09.369 --> 01:26:12.069
what's the core issue. But I can't use that analogy

01:26:12.069 --> 01:26:16.229
with you. Although I will share, I heard a really

01:26:16.229 --> 01:26:21.369
brilliant perspective that comes from fire service

01:26:21.369 --> 01:26:24.789
around executive leadership and decision making

01:26:24.789 --> 01:26:28.729
that says, you know, there are embers that do

01:26:28.729 --> 01:26:33.050
not need oxygen. So don't blow on those embers.

01:26:33.149 --> 01:26:37.010
Let them die out. What you actually need to pay

01:26:37.010 --> 01:26:42.029
attention to are these upstream issues. And so

01:26:42.029 --> 01:26:46.189
they use the fire service as an analogy of resource

01:26:46.189 --> 01:26:50.890
allocation of the leader's time, attention and

01:26:50.890 --> 01:26:56.510
insight. And that too often they are in a firefighting

01:26:56.510 --> 01:27:00.000
mode as opposed to a prevention or. preparing

01:27:00.000 --> 01:27:03.420
mode. And so I thought that was an interesting

01:27:03.420 --> 01:27:08.659
perspective to take because I do think that the

01:27:08.659 --> 01:27:13.319
fire chief, the city commissioner, even captains

01:27:13.319 --> 01:27:18.520
can get caught up in those demands of the paperwork

01:27:18.520 --> 01:27:21.739
and the regulations and the compliance issues.

01:27:21.880 --> 01:27:24.020
And those are all urgent because you have to

01:27:24.020 --> 01:27:27.020
meet those deadlines. When in fact, the important

01:27:27.020 --> 01:27:30.300
work is the human development. It is making sure

01:27:30.300 --> 01:27:32.560
there's a sense of team because you have to depend

01:27:32.560 --> 01:27:35.720
on each other when that call comes in and the

01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:40.239
engine goes out. Like it's everything to appreciate

01:27:40.239 --> 01:27:44.199
about how coordinating, how coordinated a team

01:27:44.199 --> 01:27:46.789
is. When it comes to fighting a fire, I have

01:27:46.789 --> 01:27:49.449
learned that through this experience with all

01:27:49.449 --> 01:27:51.590
American leadership. There's no better example.

01:27:51.609 --> 01:27:54.069
I don't think of effective teamwork when it comes

01:27:54.069 --> 01:27:58.289
to looking at humans working in concert with

01:27:58.289 --> 01:28:02.869
each other. Unfortunately, that's not the urgent

01:28:02.869 --> 01:28:06.770
work of those in leadership, but it has to become

01:28:06.770 --> 01:28:09.270
the priority work because that's the important

01:28:09.270 --> 01:28:12.649
work. How do you train people to work in concert

01:28:12.649 --> 01:28:16.310
with each other? But those aren't the deadlines

01:28:16.310 --> 01:28:19.489
that people in those positions of leadership,

01:28:19.729 --> 01:28:24.310
I think they're not feeling that pressure in

01:28:24.310 --> 01:28:29.869
the same way. What about the financial benefits

01:28:29.869 --> 01:28:34.130
of investing in your greatest asset, which is

01:28:34.130 --> 01:28:37.689
the people that work under you? I swear almost

01:28:37.689 --> 01:28:40.229
every single conversation I have when there is

01:28:40.229 --> 01:28:43.640
an issue, one of the most... Obvious factors

01:28:43.640 --> 01:28:45.760
is the false economy, you know, and then again,

01:28:45.840 --> 01:28:48.659
like I just detailed with locally here, trying

01:28:48.659 --> 01:28:52.439
not to make those changes at the extra personnel

01:28:52.439 --> 01:28:56.300
attracts, you know, great, great firefighter

01:28:56.300 --> 01:28:58.579
recruits to then fill the vacancies and then

01:28:58.579 --> 01:29:01.359
have a full platoon, fully staffed, healthy shift

01:29:01.359 --> 01:29:03.680
that gets ample rest and recovery that can go

01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:05.779
home with their family and, you know, really

01:29:05.779 --> 01:29:09.960
bolster their relationships. Downstream, you

01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:13.930
would save the taxpayer millions. But what I

01:29:13.930 --> 01:29:16.590
see over and over again is a lot of poor leaders,

01:29:16.789 --> 01:29:20.329
rather than understanding the proactive investment

01:29:20.329 --> 01:29:23.130
of their people, they just lean into the false

01:29:23.130 --> 01:29:24.989
economy of, well, I just want to look good this

01:29:24.989 --> 01:29:27.529
budget year. I don't want to rock the boat. So

01:29:27.529 --> 01:29:29.409
talk to me, because you've obviously worked with

01:29:29.409 --> 01:29:32.449
a lot of groups now. What are you seeing overall?

01:29:32.750 --> 01:29:34.649
I mean, not just numbers, but just in principles

01:29:34.649 --> 01:29:39.289
of the downstream financial savings of prioritizing

01:29:39.289 --> 01:29:44.149
the health of your people? Well, I wish I had

01:29:44.149 --> 01:29:46.470
those numbers. I literally was just talking with

01:29:46.470 --> 01:29:49.210
someone yesterday about how having those numbers

01:29:49.210 --> 01:29:52.609
would be so beneficial because for whatever reason,

01:29:52.670 --> 01:29:54.869
it seems like numbers convince people better

01:29:54.869 --> 01:29:58.590
than principles, which I still don't understand.

01:29:58.670 --> 01:30:01.430
But that seems to be the currency is you've got

01:30:01.430 --> 01:30:05.689
to prove it with the data. And there are organizations

01:30:05.689 --> 01:30:10.270
like Korn Ferry and Deloitte. and the Center

01:30:10.270 --> 01:30:12.210
for Creative Leadership. There are any number

01:30:12.210 --> 01:30:14.489
of organizations, the Gallup organization, who

01:30:14.489 --> 01:30:18.729
study this downstream impact of training and

01:30:18.729 --> 01:30:22.989
effective hiring, effective onboarding, and the

01:30:22.989 --> 01:30:25.550
money that's saved. So I want to say it's something

01:30:25.550 --> 01:30:27.729
like, so I'm going to say this one number and

01:30:27.729 --> 01:30:30.409
then shift to the principles. I think the number

01:30:30.409 --> 01:30:35.050
is something like you save six times the investment

01:30:35.050 --> 01:30:38.239
in training. Like if you train someone well,

01:30:38.340 --> 01:30:42.579
your savings are 6x over poor training, which

01:30:42.579 --> 01:30:44.880
then leads to all of those negative consequences

01:30:44.880 --> 01:30:49.819
like high rates of turnover, absenteeism, poor

01:30:49.819 --> 01:30:56.500
performance, etc. I think the principles that

01:30:56.500 --> 01:31:00.399
I lean into when I am working with individuals

01:31:00.399 --> 01:31:04.729
and organizations on this. investment question

01:31:04.729 --> 01:31:09.949
is, one principle is, well, what do you want?

01:31:10.590 --> 01:31:13.369
Like, how do you want to go to work every day?

01:31:13.409 --> 01:31:15.949
What kind of work environment do you want to

01:31:15.949 --> 01:31:21.170
be in? And so the principle of, frankly, self,

01:31:21.229 --> 01:31:26.869
what would I call it? It's not self -protection,

01:31:26.949 --> 01:31:31.340
but it's essentially When you think about what

01:31:31.340 --> 01:31:34.739
you want to experience at work, describe that

01:31:34.739 --> 01:31:37.699
environment for me. And the environment or the

01:31:37.699 --> 01:31:39.520
organizational culture that someone describes,

01:31:39.880 --> 01:31:44.739
I can very easily tie to that comes about through

01:31:44.739 --> 01:31:47.880
good training. And it even comes about through

01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:50.720
good hiring practices, which is all about creating

01:31:50.720 --> 01:31:53.840
the pipeline. So I can go upstream with that

01:31:53.840 --> 01:31:56.319
individual to say, if this is what you want your

01:31:56.319 --> 01:32:00.720
daily or... organizational existence to feel

01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:03.739
like, to look like, to be like. Let's go upstream

01:32:03.739 --> 01:32:06.140
and look at how you get there. And it is all

01:32:06.140 --> 01:32:09.079
about talent development. And talent development

01:32:09.079 --> 01:32:12.220
starts with your hiring practices, which actually

01:32:12.220 --> 01:32:15.159
comes from developing the pipeline for people.

01:32:15.579 --> 01:32:18.079
But just because you hire them in doesn't mean

01:32:18.079 --> 01:32:20.060
that you can then just wash your hands of it

01:32:20.060 --> 01:32:22.659
and say, okay, good people are here. Now we can

01:32:22.659 --> 01:32:25.520
let them be. No, it actually takes deliberate,

01:32:25.699 --> 01:32:29.699
intentional cultivation. of a way of being, of

01:32:29.699 --> 01:32:33.300
a way of working, of bringing those shared values

01:32:33.300 --> 01:32:36.960
into the workplace. I think one of the practices

01:32:36.960 --> 01:32:41.100
that I've always believed in mattering the most,

01:32:41.260 --> 01:32:44.720
which, frankly, the fire service has the perfect

01:32:44.720 --> 01:32:48.600
opportunity to embody, because you actually have

01:32:48.600 --> 01:32:51.340
to do this, which is to break bread. It's to

01:32:51.340 --> 01:32:54.050
eat together. Because when you actually share

01:32:54.050 --> 01:32:56.649
a meal with the people who you work with, you

01:32:56.649 --> 01:33:00.310
create bonds. And there's all sorts of neuroscience

01:33:00.310 --> 01:33:03.569
behind this that talks about the different hormones

01:33:03.569 --> 01:33:06.569
that fire off when you feel a sense of belonging,

01:33:06.930 --> 01:33:10.689
when you feel seen and heard and valued. When

01:33:10.689 --> 01:33:15.689
you learn about one another's lives and you create

01:33:15.689 --> 01:33:18.289
a trusting environment, you get this thing called

01:33:18.289 --> 01:33:21.710
psychological safety. Well, this is best built.

01:33:22.199 --> 01:33:26.380
around a table eating together. And the fire

01:33:26.380 --> 01:33:31.380
service, that's part of your shift. There are

01:33:31.380 --> 01:33:33.460
a lot of organizations that really struggle with

01:33:33.460 --> 01:33:36.140
how do we break bread together. So I'm trying

01:33:36.140 --> 01:33:39.260
to create ways for my clients to do that, which

01:33:39.260 --> 01:33:42.340
I think is at the fingertips of leaders in the

01:33:42.340 --> 01:33:47.000
fire service. So the principle of coming together

01:33:47.000 --> 01:33:52.180
to know one another, to create those social and

01:33:52.180 --> 01:33:56.079
psychological bonds with each other is one of

01:33:56.079 --> 01:33:59.720
those investments that doesn't take necessarily

01:33:59.720 --> 01:34:03.039
a whole lot of time or even a whole lot of money,

01:34:03.100 --> 01:34:05.800
but it does take intentionality. So you can't

01:34:05.800 --> 01:34:09.000
just sit down and have food. Being able to have

01:34:09.000 --> 01:34:12.800
some kind of purpose in that gathering and having

01:34:12.800 --> 01:34:16.000
a moment to say, so what's gone well with us,

01:34:16.000 --> 01:34:19.460
our day today? Where did we do really well last

01:34:19.460 --> 01:34:22.699
week? How do we celebrate together? That also

01:34:22.699 --> 01:34:26.920
counteracts the negativity and builds the positive

01:34:26.920 --> 01:34:31.739
regard you have for your teammates, whether you're

01:34:31.739 --> 01:34:33.399
in the fire service or whether you're in the

01:34:33.399 --> 01:34:36.779
office. How do we celebrate together our accomplishments,

01:34:36.979 --> 01:34:41.300
I would argue, is almost a lost art of leadership,

01:34:41.619 --> 01:34:45.920
lost art of management. We have to fix the problems.

01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:48.779
It's always a deficit -based thinking approach.

01:34:48.960 --> 01:34:52.760
And I would say if we instead had managers and

01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:55.460
leaders approach their work with others from

01:34:55.460 --> 01:34:58.680
an asset -based perspective, we would see remarkable

01:34:58.680 --> 01:35:03.250
changes. I love that. philosophy that you had

01:35:03.250 --> 01:35:06.010
that imagine where you want to be and then reverse

01:35:06.010 --> 01:35:09.109
engineer from there because if if i really am

01:35:09.109 --> 01:35:11.010
you know blatantly honest about all the places

01:35:11.010 --> 01:35:13.609
i work which had the best culture it would be

01:35:13.609 --> 01:35:19.289
anaheim in in california and at the time we weren't

01:35:19.289 --> 01:35:21.090
really talking about the kind of work week and

01:35:21.090 --> 01:35:24.810
stuff back then but the the hiring was incredibly

01:35:24.810 --> 01:35:27.130
competitive you know it was again a few years

01:35:27.130 --> 01:35:30.329
after 9 -11 I've said this many times in the

01:35:30.329 --> 01:35:34.329
written test alone. I, I competed against a thousand

01:35:34.329 --> 01:35:36.850
certified firefighters and, you know, either

01:35:36.850 --> 01:35:39.569
EMTs or paramedics. And then a lot of them had

01:35:39.569 --> 01:35:42.069
a fat resume to, from, you know, department of

01:35:42.069 --> 01:35:44.930
foreign street to explorer programs, ambulance

01:35:44.930 --> 01:35:47.850
operators, et cetera, lifeguards. So these were,

01:35:47.930 --> 01:35:49.989
you know, the creme de la creme. And then you're

01:35:49.989 --> 01:35:52.010
competing against a thousand of them. My class

01:35:52.010 --> 01:35:55.569
was 15 people. There was two classes. So very,

01:35:55.609 --> 01:35:57.770
very competitive. But then when you get hired,

01:35:58.010 --> 01:36:00.189
they traditionally, through attrition, because

01:36:00.189 --> 01:36:03.310
the bar was set so high, would lose 25 % of every

01:36:03.310 --> 01:36:05.909
class by the end of the year. So now you've got

01:36:05.909 --> 01:36:08.729
another few that have gone. By the time you make

01:36:08.729 --> 01:36:11.979
it through that crucible... You certainly have

01:36:11.979 --> 01:36:13.800
understood the gratitude of the position that

01:36:13.800 --> 01:36:15.720
you're in, but you've also kind of proven yourself

01:36:15.720 --> 01:36:18.460
to the rest of the fire department. We used to

01:36:18.460 --> 01:36:21.359
work out together. We trained all the time. You

01:36:21.359 --> 01:36:24.779
know, we ate all the time together. And, you

01:36:24.779 --> 01:36:26.500
know, one of my guests, Dina Ali, I'll credit

01:36:26.500 --> 01:36:28.770
her to saying this, you know, if. If we just

01:36:28.770 --> 01:36:30.789
did exactly what you're talking about, we really

01:36:30.789 --> 01:36:32.750
wouldn't need peer support and some of these

01:36:32.750 --> 01:36:34.649
other things anymore because we would just be

01:36:34.649 --> 01:36:37.029
organically taking care of each other again.

01:36:37.449 --> 01:36:40.590
So that reverse engineer I've got experience

01:36:40.590 --> 01:36:43.649
is probably why I'm so dogmatic with this messaging

01:36:43.649 --> 01:36:46.369
because I've lived a great culture in that one

01:36:46.369 --> 01:36:49.569
department at that one timeline. And I think

01:36:49.569 --> 01:36:52.390
that's it. So the lower, conversely, one of the

01:36:52.390 --> 01:36:54.189
worst places I've worked, which I won't name.

01:36:54.859 --> 01:36:58.000
The bar was in a trench in the ground and it

01:36:58.000 --> 01:37:01.279
was a complete polar opposite. Very, very low,

01:37:01.279 --> 01:37:03.460
you know, brotherhood, sisterhood, camaraderie,

01:37:03.460 --> 01:37:06.100
you know, operationally very low standards. So

01:37:06.100 --> 01:37:08.220
the great firefighters in that department were

01:37:08.220 --> 01:37:11.420
good despite the environment because of the environment.

01:37:11.699 --> 01:37:15.579
And, you know, the recruitment, if they had five

01:37:15.579 --> 01:37:18.699
openings, they might get seven applicants. So,

01:37:18.699 --> 01:37:21.949
you know, you're seeing night and day. There

01:37:21.949 --> 01:37:24.050
are these organizations that we can look at and

01:37:24.050 --> 01:37:26.489
say, all right, what did you do back then? You

01:37:26.489 --> 01:37:28.970
know, how how does your as you said, your pipeline

01:37:28.970 --> 01:37:30.930
look, you know, what are you doing to create

01:37:30.930 --> 01:37:33.909
this high level of of gratitude and performance

01:37:33.909 --> 01:37:36.649
in your in your environment? And then I hope

01:37:36.649 --> 01:37:39.590
one day that that fire department will then look

01:37:39.590 --> 01:37:41.449
at the healthier work week and address some of

01:37:41.449 --> 01:37:43.050
the issues that they have, too, because they

01:37:43.050 --> 01:37:45.649
still have issues. Right. But I love that idea

01:37:45.649 --> 01:37:49.090
of imagine your dream culture, your dream fire

01:37:49.090 --> 01:37:52.020
department. reverse engineer what does it look

01:37:52.020 --> 01:37:54.300
like as far as step one two and three to get

01:37:54.300 --> 01:37:57.199
to that point and then as you said to then maintain

01:37:57.199 --> 01:38:00.119
those great men and women's physical health mental

01:38:00.119 --> 01:38:04.460
health performance well and i think to your point

01:38:04.460 --> 01:38:07.000
there is the maintenance piece of this that often

01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:10.699
gets forgotten that well -intentioned starts

01:38:10.699 --> 01:38:16.279
aren't sustained and so when i am working with

01:38:16.939 --> 01:38:19.420
my clients, part of what I talk about is what's

01:38:19.420 --> 01:38:24.359
your ongoing way of fueling this engine? So if

01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:28.079
you think about, well, what's the role of a leadership

01:38:28.079 --> 01:38:30.260
consultant? A lot of times it's come in and do

01:38:30.260 --> 01:38:34.399
a retreat for us. And early in my career, I said,

01:38:34.439 --> 01:38:36.760
yes, I want to just do a whole bunch of retreats

01:38:36.760 --> 01:38:38.600
all the time. That's all I want to do is facilitate

01:38:38.600 --> 01:38:42.560
retreats. And what I came to learn very quickly

01:38:42.560 --> 01:38:46.739
was that's a nice to have. And that's all it

01:38:46.739 --> 01:38:49.260
ends up being if all you're doing is a retreat.

01:38:50.319 --> 01:38:53.239
Now, when I work with my clients and I'm asked

01:38:53.239 --> 01:38:55.920
to come and do a leadership retreat, the answer

01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:58.539
is, okay, yes. And what comes before it and what's

01:38:58.539 --> 01:39:01.619
coming after it? And how do we ensure that whatever

01:39:01.619 --> 01:39:04.779
is done at the retreat, we've prepared people

01:39:04.779 --> 01:39:07.260
for, we've connected to what's happened before.

01:39:07.560 --> 01:39:11.279
We're addressing real challenges. We're also...

01:39:11.770 --> 01:39:13.789
planning, and this is the most important part

01:39:13.789 --> 01:39:16.130
of it, we are preparing for what's going to come

01:39:16.130 --> 01:39:18.189
out of the retreat and how do we continue to

01:39:18.189 --> 01:39:23.210
feed this engine or this idea or this vision,

01:39:23.369 --> 01:39:26.930
whatever we've produced, this good feeling, how

01:39:26.930 --> 01:39:29.210
are we going to feed that to continue and grow

01:39:29.210 --> 01:39:33.449
it? Because if we don't continue with a sustaining

01:39:33.449 --> 01:39:36.750
or a maintaining mentality, then it's simply

01:39:36.750 --> 01:39:39.789
a nice day to have. And it's like throwing water

01:39:39.789 --> 01:39:43.930
in a colander. that doesn't do any good to anyone.

01:39:44.569 --> 01:39:48.529
So I think this reverse engineering is critically

01:39:48.529 --> 01:39:50.829
important and it's how I work with a lot of my

01:39:50.829 --> 01:39:54.210
clients. And once you have that vision, it's

01:39:54.210 --> 01:39:57.149
how do you continually commit to it? So it's

01:39:57.149 --> 01:40:00.149
again, not leaving it to chance. That, okay,

01:40:00.210 --> 01:40:02.569
because we did these things and we have this

01:40:02.569 --> 01:40:05.550
now, we can wash our hands of it. No, it's like

01:40:05.550 --> 01:40:08.470
maintaining a body's health. You have to continue

01:40:08.470 --> 01:40:11.729
to do those good sleep hygiene practices. You

01:40:11.729 --> 01:40:14.609
have to continue to eat nutritious foods. You

01:40:14.609 --> 01:40:17.050
have to continue to maintain the stress. You

01:40:17.050 --> 01:40:19.510
will never be in a stress -free environment.

01:40:19.689 --> 01:40:22.970
Our organizations will always be under threat

01:40:22.970 --> 01:40:26.380
somehow. the leaders will always feel stress.

01:40:26.560 --> 01:40:29.659
It's what are our practices for navigating that?

01:40:29.819 --> 01:40:33.520
How do we mitigate when we can and what happens

01:40:33.520 --> 01:40:36.979
when we can't? So when a crisis hits, are we

01:40:36.979 --> 01:40:41.279
prepared and what's our recovery process? So

01:40:41.279 --> 01:40:44.979
it's that notion of we have to not only create,

01:40:45.020 --> 01:40:48.420
we also have to sustain and maintain. Absolutely.

01:40:49.180 --> 01:40:51.020
Well, I want to hit one more topic, then we'll

01:40:51.020 --> 01:40:53.399
go to some closing questions. But I know more

01:40:53.399 --> 01:40:55.359
recently, as you said, you work with some of

01:40:55.359 --> 01:40:59.170
the school systems. Another entire conversation

01:40:59.170 --> 01:41:02.670
in itself. I've had an educator on Pasi Solberg,

01:41:02.869 --> 01:41:05.270
who is from Finland, but he lives in Australia

01:41:05.270 --> 01:41:07.930
and educates around the world on the Finnish

01:41:07.930 --> 01:41:13.189
school system. And hearing the model there, who

01:41:13.189 --> 01:41:15.470
are nearly always at the very, very top of the

01:41:15.470 --> 01:41:19.010
world's education system, and comparing and contrasting

01:41:19.010 --> 01:41:21.810
it to the standardized system of education that

01:41:21.810 --> 01:41:25.710
my son was led through the last K through 12.

01:41:26.800 --> 01:41:30.279
Very, very different structures. And as far as

01:41:30.279 --> 01:41:32.300
the health that we're seeing in schools, for

01:41:32.300 --> 01:41:35.380
example, the breaking down of PE programs, the

01:41:35.380 --> 01:41:37.659
types of food that is served in our schools,

01:41:37.880 --> 01:41:40.479
I would argue that the American school system

01:41:40.479 --> 01:41:43.739
maybe could have the humility to learn from some

01:41:43.739 --> 01:41:45.960
other systems around the world. But that's just

01:41:45.960 --> 01:41:49.739
my perspective. So talk to me about what you're

01:41:49.739 --> 01:41:53.340
seeing as far as our school system itself, and

01:41:53.340 --> 01:41:55.380
then how were you applying leadership to that

01:41:55.380 --> 01:42:00.090
environment? So excellent, excellent observations.

01:42:00.130 --> 01:42:02.449
And the good news is, James, there are school

01:42:02.449 --> 01:42:05.810
systems that are learning from other non -American

01:42:05.810 --> 01:42:08.630
school systems. I think one of the challenges

01:42:08.630 --> 01:42:12.909
in the American schooling system is the centralization

01:42:12.909 --> 01:42:16.670
at the same time as the fracture. So we don't

01:42:16.670 --> 01:42:21.949
have federal standards for educating up. We have

01:42:21.949 --> 01:42:26.189
federal compliance rules that I think are more

01:42:26.189 --> 01:42:31.430
about constraints than about leveraging assets.

01:42:31.810 --> 01:42:34.630
And I think that's a real problem. And I think

01:42:34.630 --> 01:42:38.130
we are continuing to see the challenges that

01:42:38.130 --> 01:42:43.430
are coming about from more states' rights around

01:42:43.430 --> 01:42:46.350
what does public education look like. My brother

01:42:46.350 --> 01:42:50.229
is... in Great Britain and has been there for

01:42:50.229 --> 01:42:55.270
25 years. So he raised his family in the British

01:42:55.270 --> 01:42:58.390
schooling system. And part of what I've learned

01:42:58.390 --> 01:43:02.750
from him is how radically different K -12, whatever

01:43:02.750 --> 01:43:05.390
version of it you want to call it, how radically

01:43:05.390 --> 01:43:07.770
different it's done when you have a national

01:43:07.770 --> 01:43:11.369
governing body that is impacting all schools.

01:43:12.119 --> 01:43:14.319
versus our system where our national governing

01:43:14.319 --> 01:43:18.220
body impacts only some schools and only in certain

01:43:18.220 --> 01:43:21.439
ways. And then we have states that are adding

01:43:21.439 --> 01:43:26.220
its different ways of accomplishing this same

01:43:26.220 --> 01:43:29.239
end of education for all. So I think we have

01:43:29.239 --> 01:43:32.979
an incredibly fractured system. I think adding

01:43:32.979 --> 01:43:37.800
to that complicated structure, we then have the

01:43:37.800 --> 01:43:40.920
different realities of school funding. where

01:43:40.920 --> 01:43:44.800
you've got, from my experience working in the

01:43:44.800 --> 01:43:46.979
Cleveland Metropolitan School District, it's

01:43:46.979 --> 01:43:49.699
an urban school district where the funding model

01:43:49.699 --> 01:43:52.239
in the state of Ohio is based on real estate

01:43:52.239 --> 01:43:55.779
taxes. Well, if you know anything about economics

01:43:55.779 --> 01:43:58.300
in the United States, you know that our urban

01:43:58.300 --> 01:44:02.819
core of whatever city has much less money than

01:44:02.819 --> 01:44:05.699
our suburban environments. And when our school

01:44:05.699 --> 01:44:10.390
system is based on real estate, then our urban

01:44:10.390 --> 01:44:13.850
core, our urban institutions have much less money

01:44:13.850 --> 01:44:17.989
to work with. And so there's a huge divide in

01:44:17.989 --> 01:44:22.350
public education in America between and among

01:44:22.350 --> 01:44:26.670
urban, suburban, and rural. And rural and urban

01:44:26.670 --> 01:44:30.069
systems have much more in common with each other

01:44:30.069 --> 01:44:32.550
than a lot of people realize because there is

01:44:32.550 --> 01:44:38.189
this tremendous resource constraint. Add to that...

01:44:38.510 --> 01:44:40.989
one of the things I came to appreciate is the

01:44:40.989 --> 01:44:46.010
expectation of communities, for the most part,

01:44:46.109 --> 01:44:50.810
have increased around what a public school system

01:44:50.810 --> 01:44:54.689
is responsible for. So I can only speak to my

01:44:54.689 --> 01:44:58.529
firsthand experience in Cleveland, where the

01:44:58.529 --> 01:45:01.789
community really was anticipating and expecting

01:45:01.789 --> 01:45:05.189
the public school system to be responsible for

01:45:05.189 --> 01:45:09.760
not just the education of young people, but their

01:45:09.760 --> 01:45:13.640
physical and mental health. So health care was

01:45:13.640 --> 01:45:18.100
being expected of schools to accomplish. What

01:45:18.100 --> 01:45:20.439
were kids going to be doing after school became

01:45:20.439 --> 01:45:23.659
the responsibility of the school system. Well,

01:45:23.800 --> 01:45:26.979
that is cross purposes. So you already have a

01:45:26.979 --> 01:45:29.140
resource constraint. Now we're having to not

01:45:29.140 --> 01:45:31.060
just take care of kids during the normal school

01:45:31.060 --> 01:45:33.180
day, but we have to take care of them before

01:45:33.180 --> 01:45:35.439
school and after school up until dinnertime.

01:45:35.819 --> 01:45:39.600
We certainly have to feed our kids because we're

01:45:39.600 --> 01:45:43.140
working in an impoverished city. Cleveland is

01:45:43.140 --> 01:45:45.760
either the poorest or the second poorest child

01:45:45.760 --> 01:45:51.020
population in the country. So many children in

01:45:51.020 --> 01:45:55.619
the public school system had to come to school

01:45:55.619 --> 01:45:59.529
to be fed twice a day. So during the pandemic,

01:45:59.630 --> 01:46:04.569
when I was at the school district, we were very

01:46:04.569 --> 01:46:07.510
proud of the fact that we didn't cut any jobs

01:46:07.510 --> 01:46:10.989
and we did not stop feeding our kids for the

01:46:10.989 --> 01:46:13.649
year that the school system was shut down. Amazing.

01:46:13.750 --> 01:46:17.430
And that is a point of pride for the leadership

01:46:17.430 --> 01:46:20.029
of the district that we figured out a way to

01:46:20.029 --> 01:46:24.029
continue to provide for food for our families.

01:46:24.069 --> 01:46:26.090
And by the way, we were providing food for the

01:46:26.090 --> 01:46:28.909
families, not just the children. And then it

01:46:28.909 --> 01:46:33.029
became evident that we needed to provide other

01:46:33.029 --> 01:46:36.529
resources. So how can we get digital access to

01:46:36.529 --> 01:46:39.909
these families when we emerged out of the pandemic,

01:46:40.050 --> 01:46:43.329
but we're in an all virtual environment still?

01:46:44.130 --> 01:46:47.829
We learned during the year, basically, that the

01:46:47.829 --> 01:46:51.729
school system was shut down, that lots of families

01:46:51.729 --> 01:46:55.069
didn't have access to what we're doing. communicating

01:46:55.069 --> 01:46:58.090
via the internet. So we had to work on how do

01:46:58.090 --> 01:47:03.130
we get families connected? So I think one of

01:47:03.130 --> 01:47:09.590
the misunderstandings that is pretty common is

01:47:09.590 --> 01:47:12.890
how much public schools in America are responsible

01:47:12.890 --> 01:47:17.350
for and how many restraints and constraints are

01:47:17.350 --> 01:47:20.489
put on these systems. and the system leaders,

01:47:20.649 --> 01:47:23.470
not to mention the teachers. So I think there

01:47:23.470 --> 01:47:28.590
is no more stressful position besides being a

01:47:28.590 --> 01:47:31.829
first responder than being in a school system.

01:47:32.090 --> 01:47:36.569
Because whether you're a teacher or a principal

01:47:36.569 --> 01:47:41.430
or a custodian or one of the people working in

01:47:41.430 --> 01:47:46.449
the system to provide support, the responsibilities

01:47:46.449 --> 01:47:50.489
are mounting. And the resources are diminishing.

01:47:50.569 --> 01:47:54.970
And so the gap is increasing between what's needed

01:47:54.970 --> 01:47:59.170
and what's being provided to meet those needs.

01:47:59.390 --> 01:48:03.590
And so I think about the passion with which so

01:48:03.590 --> 01:48:07.470
many people are committing to and choosing to

01:48:07.470 --> 01:48:10.720
work for public schools. And I can only speak

01:48:10.720 --> 01:48:12.640
about public schools because I've not been in

01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:14.880
the private school setting or the charter school

01:48:14.880 --> 01:48:18.020
setting. But there are a lot of incredibly talented

01:48:18.020 --> 01:48:23.439
and gifted professionals and people who are choosing

01:48:23.439 --> 01:48:26.460
to work for public schools because of the important

01:48:26.460 --> 01:48:29.260
role that public schools play, because they are

01:48:29.260 --> 01:48:32.460
an anchor institution in most of our communities.

01:48:33.180 --> 01:48:37.619
And they are operating, I think, on incredibly...

01:48:39.029 --> 01:48:45.329
reduced and continually diminishing resources.

01:48:45.729 --> 01:48:48.170
So the leadership challenges are just increasing.

01:48:49.329 --> 01:48:53.729
When I was speaking to Pasi in Finland, when

01:48:53.729 --> 01:48:56.449
they have more impoverished areas, they actually

01:48:56.449 --> 01:48:59.319
give them more funding. I mean, you know, common

01:48:59.319 --> 01:49:01.640
sense really, isn't it? You know, areas that

01:49:01.640 --> 01:49:04.840
make sense. Usually, you know, usually your people

01:49:04.840 --> 01:49:07.199
that have, you know, a higher affluence are usually

01:49:07.199 --> 01:49:09.420
healthier. They have better health care. Maybe

01:49:09.420 --> 01:49:11.300
they actually have access to school, you know,

01:49:11.319 --> 01:49:13.460
sports programs, et cetera, et cetera. So they

01:49:13.460 --> 01:49:16.399
bolster the areas that need them rather than

01:49:16.399 --> 01:49:19.359
chastise them for having lower scores and then

01:49:19.359 --> 01:49:21.840
take even more funding from them. So exactly.

01:49:22.079 --> 01:49:24.380
It makes perfect sense to me to do it that way.

01:49:25.439 --> 01:49:28.600
I only wish I could figure out a way to get our

01:49:28.600 --> 01:49:32.659
lawmakers to see that. We have some pretty horrific

01:49:32.659 --> 01:49:37.840
school funding formulas and Ohio has, I think,

01:49:37.840 --> 01:49:40.840
ruled. I think the Ohio State Supreme Court has

01:49:40.840 --> 01:49:44.340
ruled that our school funding formula is unconstitutional

01:49:44.340 --> 01:49:50.939
for maybe no less than 25 years. And yet it continues

01:49:50.939 --> 01:49:53.979
to be. the case that this is how schools are

01:49:53.979 --> 01:49:56.420
funded. So this is when I feel like a child.

01:49:56.500 --> 01:49:58.819
I just don't understand. Like I want to throw

01:49:58.819 --> 01:50:01.600
my body down and just pound the ground and throw

01:50:01.600 --> 01:50:04.600
a tantrum like this cannot continue. And yet

01:50:04.600 --> 01:50:07.939
year after year, it continues. So when our funding

01:50:07.939 --> 01:50:14.399
formula continues to misappropriate those funds.

01:50:16.489 --> 01:50:20.510
I go back to how you started, which is the importance

01:50:20.510 --> 01:50:23.770
of kindness, compassion, and understanding, care,

01:50:24.090 --> 01:50:30.670
and empathy. Extending that to our school employees

01:50:30.670 --> 01:50:33.750
is so important because they are taking care

01:50:33.750 --> 01:50:36.050
of our future and they are building our future

01:50:36.050 --> 01:50:40.630
because those children are our future. My son

01:50:40.630 --> 01:50:43.840
has had so many great teachers. like the fire,

01:50:43.899 --> 01:50:46.140
like the police, I have the utmost respect because

01:50:46.140 --> 01:50:49.140
they are great teachers, despite the system that

01:50:49.140 --> 01:50:51.979
they have to teach in. What I also experienced

01:50:51.979 --> 01:50:55.180
so sadly was what happens when you put a bad

01:50:55.180 --> 01:50:58.939
person in a leadership position. So we had the

01:50:58.939 --> 01:51:02.039
Parkland shooting a few years ago, which got

01:51:02.039 --> 01:51:04.479
everyone knee jerk and pendulum swinging the

01:51:04.479 --> 01:51:06.920
other way when it came to anything in the schools.

01:51:07.239 --> 01:51:10.720
And after it happened to my own child, I uncovered.

01:51:11.520 --> 01:51:14.039
The fact that this one middle school, the principal

01:51:14.039 --> 01:51:19.180
and the SRO, were sending children to a 72 -hour

01:51:19.180 --> 01:51:21.939
psychiatric hold, in my son's case, just simply

01:51:21.939 --> 01:51:26.340
for being in tears, on a weekly basis. So I paid

01:51:26.340 --> 01:51:29.420
almost $100 to pull the police records. Hundreds

01:51:29.420 --> 01:51:33.100
of kids. Now, I can count on one hand how many

01:51:33.100 --> 01:51:36.159
people I've Baker acted in 14 years as a firefighter

01:51:36.159 --> 01:51:38.659
paramedic. And of those, these are people who

01:51:38.659 --> 01:51:41.479
are clearly suicidal. If we don't lock them up

01:51:41.479 --> 01:51:44.119
into a room, they will end their own life. We

01:51:44.119 --> 01:51:46.300
have to bring them down. And these children,

01:51:46.420 --> 01:51:48.399
like when my son was there, I watched numerous

01:51:48.399 --> 01:51:50.640
ones come through. So that's the other side of

01:51:50.640 --> 01:51:53.800
this. If we don't go back into the why, like

01:51:53.800 --> 01:51:56.859
you said, which is. physically and mentally healthy

01:51:56.859 --> 01:51:59.319
children that are on an educational route that

01:51:59.319 --> 01:52:02.380
inspires them to be you know whatever the jigsaw

01:52:02.380 --> 01:52:05.479
puzzle piece in society then we're missing the

01:52:05.479 --> 01:52:08.460
point and if you're turning your head on literally

01:52:08.460 --> 01:52:12.779
sending children into a 72 -hour hold in a you

01:52:12.779 --> 01:52:15.920
know a furnitureless room where their shoelaces

01:52:15.920 --> 01:52:18.199
have been taken away And then in cases where

01:52:18.199 --> 01:52:19.779
there is someone who's supposed to be there,

01:52:19.840 --> 01:52:21.779
now they're enduring screaming and God knows

01:52:21.779 --> 01:52:23.899
what else. For three days straight where their

01:52:23.899 --> 01:52:27.199
parents can visit them for 10 minutes, you know,

01:52:27.220 --> 01:52:28.800
you think of the mental health. Yeah, I mean,

01:52:28.800 --> 01:52:30.779
I saw it on my own. Yeah, it's traumatizing.

01:52:30.859 --> 01:52:33.140
So this is the danger as well. When we're not

01:52:33.140 --> 01:52:35.779
holding these decisions and these leaders in

01:52:35.779 --> 01:52:38.340
the educational space accountable and or the

01:52:38.340 --> 01:52:41.079
law enforcement people in those educational facilities,

01:52:41.600 --> 01:52:45.439
the ripple effect and the damage can be innumerable.

01:52:46.350 --> 01:52:50.130
Oh, absolutely. And I saw that as well, not in

01:52:50.130 --> 01:52:54.909
that same way, but similar and different versions

01:52:54.909 --> 01:52:57.770
of that story that you just told, which is heart

01:52:57.770 --> 01:53:00.569
wrenching. And I'm sorry that you've had to experience

01:53:00.569 --> 01:53:04.430
that. And others are clearly struggling because

01:53:04.430 --> 01:53:07.470
they had to experience that. That is the true

01:53:07.470 --> 01:53:11.189
risk of hiring bodies. You said this earlier

01:53:11.189 --> 01:53:13.689
in the fire service example, like just hiring

01:53:13.689 --> 01:53:17.899
bodies to have a physical. presence is not what

01:53:17.899 --> 01:53:20.680
we need. And the schools are going through very

01:53:20.680 --> 01:53:24.180
similar kinds of hiring challenges. The talent

01:53:24.180 --> 01:53:26.439
recruitment for a number of years when I was

01:53:26.439 --> 01:53:29.779
at the district meant that we were actually sending

01:53:29.779 --> 01:53:33.119
people abroad to try and bring talented teachers

01:53:33.119 --> 01:53:36.600
here because we were having such a hard time

01:53:36.600 --> 01:53:40.560
filling the pipeline. Interestingly enough, James,

01:53:40.659 --> 01:53:42.319
there's a connection between what we were talking

01:53:42.319 --> 01:53:44.920
about earlier with higher education and the situation

01:53:44.920 --> 01:53:47.100
in our public schools, which is the pipeline

01:53:47.100 --> 01:53:50.979
of quality teachers is drying up because education

01:53:50.979 --> 01:53:54.920
is not valued in our society. It's very difficult

01:53:54.920 --> 01:53:59.060
for lots of public school teachers to live on

01:53:59.060 --> 01:54:01.619
the wages that their school district is offering

01:54:01.619 --> 01:54:05.479
them. So their salaries are not sufficient. So

01:54:05.479 --> 01:54:08.970
our best and brightest. are not going into the

01:54:08.970 --> 01:54:12.130
teaching profession, which means that pipeline

01:54:12.130 --> 01:54:16.850
of high quality, qualified teachers is drying

01:54:16.850 --> 01:54:20.630
up. So we're going to very quickly, if not already,

01:54:20.770 --> 01:54:25.369
see school systems that are facing real shortages

01:54:25.369 --> 01:54:28.909
in the classroom. We're facing shortages in our

01:54:28.909 --> 01:54:32.149
school resource officer role or whatever the

01:54:32.149 --> 01:54:36.079
school police. component is we're facing tremendous

01:54:36.079 --> 01:54:39.199
challenges in our bus drivers and in our food

01:54:39.199 --> 01:54:42.979
service workers. And I would tell you from firsthand

01:54:42.979 --> 01:54:45.880
experience, not only at our Cleveland system,

01:54:46.060 --> 01:54:47.779
but at some other systems where I've had the

01:54:47.779 --> 01:54:50.420
privilege to work with those individuals who

01:54:50.420 --> 01:54:52.760
are known as the operations side of the house,

01:54:52.939 --> 01:54:56.079
they are often the most important individuals

01:54:56.079 --> 01:54:59.319
in the life of a child because those are the

01:54:59.319 --> 01:55:02.909
adults. who see the children at the beginning

01:55:02.909 --> 01:55:05.710
of the day, during the day, and at the end of

01:55:05.710 --> 01:55:08.789
the day. And if we don't have high quality people

01:55:08.789 --> 01:55:11.750
in those roles, the difference that a bus driver

01:55:11.750 --> 01:55:14.250
can make, not only in terms of the safe transport

01:55:14.250 --> 01:55:16.909
of the children, but also in understanding how

01:55:16.909 --> 01:55:19.569
is this children starting their day? How is this

01:55:19.569 --> 01:55:23.970
child going home? And if that person is attuned

01:55:23.970 --> 01:55:29.329
to children, then they can change a child's life.

01:55:30.189 --> 01:55:32.430
Same with the school resource officer. And to

01:55:32.430 --> 01:55:34.430
your point, go to the other end of the spectrum.

01:55:34.550 --> 01:55:37.470
If those aren't high quality individuals, the

01:55:37.470 --> 01:55:40.409
damage they can do in children's lives is immeasurable.

01:55:40.970 --> 01:55:45.930
So it's a huge, that talent pipeline is a huge

01:55:45.930 --> 01:55:50.250
issue in education as well. Someone told me the

01:55:50.250 --> 01:55:54.050
other day that healthcare makes up 20 % of our

01:55:54.050 --> 01:55:58.390
GDP in the US. And if you look at some of the

01:55:58.390 --> 01:56:01.279
programs that we've had, either in the UK or

01:56:01.279 --> 01:56:06.340
America, that have shown to be incredibly effective

01:56:06.340 --> 01:56:08.600
when it comes to increasing the wellness. And

01:56:08.600 --> 01:56:10.619
we'll just stay with our children because obviously

01:56:10.619 --> 01:56:12.939
that's really where you're forging healthy adults.

01:56:13.520 --> 01:56:18.619
In California, there was a program in La Jolla.

01:56:18.659 --> 01:56:20.779
Have I got that right? In one of the high schools

01:56:20.779 --> 01:56:23.699
in the 60s. It was based on kind of like a Russian

01:56:23.699 --> 01:56:26.899
philosophy initially. All the kids did PE and

01:56:26.899 --> 01:56:29.020
there were four levels, kind of almost like a

01:56:29.020 --> 01:56:32.340
belt system in martial arts. And they went through

01:56:32.340 --> 01:56:34.180
it in teams. I'm sure they kind of put them together

01:56:34.180 --> 01:56:38.020
a similar, similar standards initially, and you

01:56:38.020 --> 01:56:40.039
could elevate and you could go to the next one,

01:56:40.079 --> 01:56:42.520
the next one. And it was all basically calisthenics

01:56:42.520 --> 01:56:46.829
and the top tier. They would be able to be the

01:56:46.829 --> 01:56:50.029
front cover of any muscle health magazine. And

01:56:50.029 --> 01:56:52.069
so they had the fitness all figured out. So if

01:56:52.069 --> 01:56:53.449
you want to be a baseball player or basketball

01:56:53.449 --> 01:56:56.329
player, you were already able to do it. Athletically,

01:56:56.409 --> 01:56:58.170
you just learned the skill now. And if you just

01:56:58.170 --> 01:57:00.170
simply wanted to be in chess club and play the

01:57:00.170 --> 01:57:02.390
clarinet, well, you were still in great shape.

01:57:02.829 --> 01:57:05.109
Now you look at what Jamie Oliver did in the

01:57:05.109 --> 01:57:08.420
UK, bringing healthy food back, real food. to

01:57:08.420 --> 01:57:10.600
the schools and and he you know revolutionized

01:57:10.600 --> 01:57:13.380
that if you look in japan they not only cook

01:57:13.380 --> 01:57:16.319
all the school meals from scratch but the children

01:57:16.319 --> 01:57:18.779
even clean their own schools so now you have

01:57:18.779 --> 01:57:21.680
this ownership of the building so again with

01:57:21.680 --> 01:57:25.659
the humility there are you know all these different

01:57:25.659 --> 01:57:27.380
things finland's you know philosophy there's

01:57:27.380 --> 01:57:29.300
all these systems that are already working and

01:57:29.300 --> 01:57:31.760
then now if you forge healthier humans and you

01:57:31.760 --> 01:57:34.779
start making the nation healthier. Now you've

01:57:34.779 --> 01:57:37.600
freed up tax money that's being wasted on chronic

01:57:37.600 --> 01:57:40.079
illness. And now you can start putting it back

01:57:40.079 --> 01:57:42.380
into the teachers and the firefighters and the

01:57:42.380 --> 01:57:44.640
people that we're talking about. So again, it

01:57:44.640 --> 01:57:48.079
goes back to this false economy. There are solutions

01:57:48.079 --> 01:57:50.539
that we can, we don't need even more taxpayers

01:57:50.539 --> 01:57:53.239
money. We need to be more efficient in the money

01:57:53.239 --> 01:57:56.520
that's already there. Yeah, I agree with that.

01:57:56.619 --> 01:57:59.939
I had the opportunity to go to Singapore and

01:57:59.939 --> 01:58:05.859
do work. with a group of teachers on social and

01:58:05.859 --> 01:58:10.119
emotional intelligence. And there was a governmental

01:58:10.119 --> 01:58:16.500
mandate that every child from age five to, I

01:58:16.500 --> 01:58:21.260
think, 20 was required to take a course or to

01:58:21.260 --> 01:58:24.420
have some kind of learning experience in school

01:58:24.420 --> 01:58:30.470
around emotional intelligence. At the time, this

01:58:30.470 --> 01:58:34.680
was just lights out ahead of everyone else. And

01:58:34.680 --> 01:58:37.119
when I think about the mental health benefits,

01:58:37.380 --> 01:58:40.439
so this adds to your equation of if we've got

01:58:40.439 --> 01:58:43.680
Jamie Oliver's example in the UK around healthy

01:58:43.680 --> 01:58:46.579
foods, and we have the example from Japan around

01:58:46.579 --> 01:58:49.399
healthy environments that the children are helping

01:58:49.399 --> 01:58:51.539
to take care of so they have a sense of ownership.

01:58:51.739 --> 01:58:55.060
We add to it the Singaporean experience of social

01:58:55.060 --> 01:58:57.380
and emotional learning that's governmentally

01:58:57.380 --> 01:59:01.159
mandated as part of the curriculum. where we're

01:59:01.159 --> 01:59:03.800
learning about what is the impact of our emotions

01:59:03.800 --> 01:59:06.800
on how we know ourselves and how we interact

01:59:06.800 --> 01:59:12.420
with others. Imagine how much mental health benefit

01:59:12.420 --> 01:59:15.840
there would be in our schools when we know the

01:59:15.840 --> 01:59:17.880
exact opposite is happening right now, where

01:59:17.880 --> 01:59:21.300
we have children as young as six and seven having

01:59:21.300 --> 01:59:26.100
suicidal ideation. Which is beyond heartbreaking,

01:59:26.359 --> 01:59:29.300
like inconceivable to me that that would be the

01:59:29.300 --> 01:59:32.039
case. And yet we've got demonstrable evidence

01:59:32.039 --> 01:59:35.960
that mental health among youth is declining rapidly.

01:59:37.600 --> 01:59:39.939
Yeah, I know the social media side as well, obviously,

01:59:39.979 --> 01:59:42.720
hopefully not that young, but that's a big factor.

01:59:42.760 --> 01:59:44.920
And it's great seeing Australia and some of the

01:59:44.920 --> 01:59:48.100
other places making it illegal to have social

01:59:48.100 --> 01:59:50.439
media under the age of, I think it's 16. And

01:59:50.439 --> 01:59:52.060
then these classrooms that are locking away the

01:59:52.060 --> 01:59:54.600
phones, because in our generation, we got to

01:59:54.600 --> 01:59:57.939
experience pre -phone. life and you weren't distracted

01:59:57.939 --> 02:00:00.039
you were bored out your mind in a two -hour math

02:00:00.039 --> 02:00:02.880
class but right but you know you didn't have

02:00:02.880 --> 02:00:04.939
you were safe yeah you weren't cyber bullied

02:00:04.939 --> 02:00:08.659
or comparing yourself to some fake reality exactly

02:00:08.659 --> 02:00:11.779
exactly well happily there are more and more

02:00:11.779 --> 02:00:14.979
school districts that are going to the phone

02:00:14.979 --> 02:00:19.880
uh phones not in the classroom You know, that

02:00:19.880 --> 02:00:22.119
when students walk in the door, I even before

02:00:22.119 --> 02:00:24.199
I left the school district. So this has probably

02:00:24.199 --> 02:00:28.180
been now four years ago. There were a couple

02:00:28.180 --> 02:00:30.020
of our schools where the principal said, yep,

02:00:30.119 --> 02:00:33.739
we're done. Parents, our children will not have

02:00:33.739 --> 02:00:35.779
phones on them during the day. And they were

02:00:35.779 --> 02:00:38.619
the trendsetters. And now there are entire districts

02:00:38.619 --> 02:00:41.640
throughout the country that are saying, OK, you

02:00:41.640 --> 02:00:43.439
can have your phone on your way to school and

02:00:43.439 --> 02:00:45.529
on the way home. But as soon as you walk in the

02:00:45.529 --> 02:00:48.390
door, that phone goes away. And what's been interesting

02:00:48.390 --> 02:00:52.810
is I've learned from colleagues, the people who

02:00:52.810 --> 02:00:54.869
have been the most resistant besides parents

02:00:54.869 --> 02:00:57.069
and for some very good reasons, it's actually

02:00:57.069 --> 02:00:59.850
been the teachers, the teachers who are very

02:00:59.850 --> 02:01:03.250
resistant to turning in their phones because

02:01:03.250 --> 02:01:05.390
they're saying, well, it's about the kids. It's

02:01:05.390 --> 02:01:07.449
not about them. But in fact, it is about the

02:01:07.449 --> 02:01:11.890
adults as well. So I'm hopeful that we will continue

02:01:11.890 --> 02:01:15.720
to see that trend. Absolutely. All right. Well,

02:01:15.800 --> 02:01:17.779
let's get to the closing questions. And the first

02:01:17.779 --> 02:01:20.300
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there

02:01:20.300 --> 02:01:23.220
books that you love to recommend? It can be related

02:01:23.220 --> 02:01:25.560
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

02:01:27.380 --> 02:01:31.220
I love reading. So this is a really hard question

02:01:31.220 --> 02:01:35.640
for me to answer. With your permission, can I

02:01:35.640 --> 02:01:38.939
offer one fiction and one that's nonfiction?

02:01:39.199 --> 02:01:43.529
Absolutely. Okay. So the fiction. book that I

02:01:43.529 --> 02:01:47.289
would offer is called The Secret Life of Addie

02:01:47.289 --> 02:01:54.869
LaRue. Addie LaRue. Yes. Fabulous narrative that

02:01:54.869 --> 02:01:58.949
transports you to another time and a place and

02:01:58.949 --> 02:02:03.470
sort of plays with our conception of what does

02:02:03.470 --> 02:02:07.729
the world mean to us and how do we live a good

02:02:07.729 --> 02:02:11.130
life? I hope I've got that title right. That's

02:02:11.130 --> 02:02:13.069
the one challenge with me recommending books

02:02:13.069 --> 02:02:15.750
is I don't always remember the exact right title.

02:02:16.869 --> 02:02:19.390
But I think the and I'm going to just look at

02:02:19.390 --> 02:02:24.090
my bookshelf so I don't mess up this title. I

02:02:24.090 --> 02:02:27.939
think. My most recent book that I like talking

02:02:27.939 --> 02:02:31.380
to people about is by Adam Grant. I'm sure others

02:02:31.380 --> 02:02:34.619
of your guests have recommended this, but it's

02:02:34.619 --> 02:02:38.140
one of his newer books, if not the newest one.

02:02:38.199 --> 02:02:41.119
It's called Think Again. And I think it goes

02:02:41.119 --> 02:02:43.560
to your question of why are we so resistant to

02:02:43.560 --> 02:02:48.520
change? And how do we actually help ourselves

02:02:48.520 --> 02:02:52.460
change our minds? And I just really love how

02:02:52.460 --> 02:02:56.770
he presents. the idea that we can fall into some

02:02:56.770 --> 02:03:01.069
very natural traps about how we think and how

02:03:01.069 --> 02:03:05.189
we encourage other people to think. And so I

02:03:05.189 --> 02:03:07.670
think that's the other book I would recommend.

02:03:08.210 --> 02:03:12.090
Brilliant. What about film, television, or documentaries?

02:03:15.130 --> 02:03:22.270
Film, television, or documentaries. So I watch

02:03:22.270 --> 02:03:26.199
to escape. So I'm not going to give you anything

02:03:26.199 --> 02:03:30.720
that has deep meaning. I feel like my day is

02:03:30.720 --> 02:03:34.119
filled with enough intellectual and cognitive

02:03:34.119 --> 02:03:38.199
load that when it comes to watching television

02:03:38.199 --> 02:03:45.899
and movies, I like to escape. I'm trying to think

02:03:45.899 --> 02:03:50.260
of, I think the newest series that I have fallen

02:03:50.260 --> 02:03:52.340
in love with and advocated that people watch

02:03:52.340 --> 02:03:56.359
is called The Pit. which is all about the life

02:03:56.359 --> 02:03:58.960
of an ER. You're nodding your head like you know

02:03:58.960 --> 02:04:01.119
it. Yep, and then the new season just began.

02:04:01.199 --> 02:04:04.859
I haven't started it yet. Yep, that's a really

02:04:04.859 --> 02:04:11.020
great one. And I'm actually restarting Only Murderers

02:04:11.020 --> 02:04:16.300
in the Building, which is Martin Short and Steve

02:04:16.300 --> 02:04:20.609
Martin. And I can't remember the actress's name,

02:04:20.670 --> 02:04:24.010
but that's my other escapism. Yes. Yes. Whatever

02:04:24.010 --> 02:04:28.850
her name is. So those those would be my thoughts.

02:04:29.930 --> 02:04:33.050
Excellent. All right. Well, is there a person

02:04:33.050 --> 02:04:35.550
that you recommend to come on this podcast as

02:04:35.550 --> 02:04:38.390
a guest to speak to the first responders, military

02:04:38.390 --> 02:04:43.779
and associated professions of the world? Yes,

02:04:43.779 --> 02:04:46.039
but can I correct the book title, the first one?

02:04:46.199 --> 02:04:49.420
Yeah. It's actually The Invisible Life of Addie

02:04:49.420 --> 02:04:53.520
LaRue. Invisible, okay. I knew as soon as I said

02:04:53.520 --> 02:04:55.840
it out loud that I had gotten the adjective wrong.

02:04:56.060 --> 02:05:00.680
No problem. Is there someone who I think you

02:05:00.680 --> 02:05:03.420
should have on your podcast? Well, yes, actually.

02:05:03.579 --> 02:05:06.619
The person who comes to mind is my dear friend

02:05:06.619 --> 02:05:11.479
and co -author, Scott Allen. He is a fantastic...

02:05:13.980 --> 02:05:19.319
dynamic thinker and speaker around various topics

02:05:19.319 --> 02:05:22.279
related to leadership. Like you, he has a podcast

02:05:22.279 --> 02:05:26.000
and has been interviewing people on his podcast

02:05:26.000 --> 02:05:29.479
since COVID on the topic of leadership. So I

02:05:29.479 --> 02:05:32.760
think he would have some great perspectives to

02:05:32.760 --> 02:05:35.920
share with you. And podcaster to podcaster, it

02:05:35.920 --> 02:05:38.720
could be a fun conversation. Absolutely. You

02:05:38.720 --> 02:05:40.220
mentioned co -author. I didn't realize you'd

02:05:40.220 --> 02:05:42.840
written a book. So tell me about that. Yes. So

02:05:42.840 --> 02:05:47.939
Scott and I, along with another colleague, we

02:05:47.939 --> 02:05:49.800
brought her in the second time around. So we

02:05:49.800 --> 02:05:52.000
wrote a book called Emotionally Intelligent Leadership,

02:05:52.340 --> 02:05:55.340
a guide for college students. That was the first

02:05:55.340 --> 02:06:00.670
edition. We wrote that back in 2008. And then

02:06:00.670 --> 02:06:03.970
we published a number of resources to go along

02:06:03.970 --> 02:06:06.149
with that book. So there's a self -assessment,

02:06:06.310 --> 02:06:10.409
a facilitator guide, a student workbook. And

02:06:10.409 --> 02:06:13.939
then we republished all of those materials. 10

02:06:13.939 --> 02:06:17.579
years ago now, which is hard to believe. So Emotionally

02:06:17.579 --> 02:06:19.699
Intelligent Leadership, a guide for students.

02:06:19.739 --> 02:06:22.460
We were able to get the publisher to get rid

02:06:22.460 --> 02:06:25.720
of college because our position is this model

02:06:25.720 --> 02:06:28.359
of leadership applies to all of us and we're

02:06:28.359 --> 02:06:31.659
all learning leadership. So it's no longer just

02:06:31.659 --> 02:06:34.659
about college students. And the book and its

02:06:34.659 --> 02:06:38.949
resources all focus on... the importance of bringing

02:06:38.949 --> 02:06:41.970
an emotional intelligence lens and perspective

02:06:41.970 --> 02:06:46.050
into this question of how do I demonstrate leadership?

02:06:47.170 --> 02:06:50.310
It's learnable, it's teachable, and it's accessible

02:06:50.310 --> 02:06:52.649
to all of us because we're human beings and we

02:06:52.649 --> 02:06:55.829
are inherently emotionally intelligent. The question

02:06:55.829 --> 02:06:59.750
is, are we conscious of how we use ourself and

02:06:59.750 --> 02:07:02.789
interact with others in the contexts that we

02:07:02.789 --> 02:07:05.850
find ourselves? So that's the focus of the book.

02:07:06.399 --> 02:07:09.579
Easy read, not meant to be a textbook. And in

02:07:09.579 --> 02:07:12.859
fact, I just gave a copy to a college student

02:07:12.859 --> 02:07:16.300
who is in our lives. And he said, wait a minute,

02:07:16.399 --> 02:07:18.340
there are parts of this book where I'm supposed

02:07:18.340 --> 02:07:21.579
to write in the book. And I said, absolutely.

02:07:21.699 --> 02:07:23.720
We wanted this to be an interactive experience.

02:07:23.840 --> 02:07:27.220
So the point of the book is to help the reader.

02:07:28.260 --> 02:07:33.000
explore what dimensions we call them facets and

02:07:33.000 --> 02:07:35.520
competencies of emotional intelligence they can

02:07:35.520 --> 02:07:40.239
leverage in themselves to better affect change

02:07:40.239 --> 02:07:44.260
and lead. And where can people find that book?

02:07:44.840 --> 02:07:49.170
On Amazon, actually. happily available on Amazon.

02:07:49.369 --> 02:07:51.810
I would just encourage your listeners to make

02:07:51.810 --> 02:07:55.689
sure they obtain the 2015 version because the

02:07:55.689 --> 02:07:58.689
2008 version is still available. And while it

02:07:58.689 --> 02:08:01.789
was good, the 2015 version is even better. So

02:08:01.789 --> 02:08:05.350
look for that version. Brilliant. All right.

02:08:05.350 --> 02:08:06.909
Well, then the very last question before we make

02:08:06.909 --> 02:08:09.609
sure where people, excuse me, make sure people

02:08:09.609 --> 02:08:12.670
know where to find you. What do you do to decompress?

02:08:15.979 --> 02:08:20.239
So I love being outside. I'm still that kid who

02:08:20.239 --> 02:08:22.800
ran around the neighborhood as much as possible.

02:08:22.880 --> 02:08:26.579
And so when weather permits, I will go outside.

02:08:26.640 --> 02:08:29.039
I've learned how to hike in the wintertime because

02:08:29.039 --> 02:08:31.680
if you love the outdoors and you live in Cleveland,

02:08:31.779 --> 02:08:34.619
you have to figure out what to do when it snows

02:08:34.619 --> 02:08:41.579
and is cold. So hiking, cycling, working in my

02:08:41.579 --> 02:08:45.710
garden, going for long walks. All of those help

02:08:45.710 --> 02:08:50.250
me decompress, as does I've recently taken up

02:08:50.250 --> 02:08:52.869
painting, which has been fascinating because

02:08:52.869 --> 02:08:55.050
for the majority of my life, I've said I'm not

02:08:55.050 --> 02:08:58.170
artistic. And I'm learning that actually there

02:08:58.170 --> 02:09:03.010
is an artist in me. So this is the beginner painter

02:09:03.010 --> 02:09:06.090
speaking. But I have found that that's a great

02:09:06.090 --> 02:09:10.470
way to spend time. And then the last way I would

02:09:10.470 --> 02:09:14.279
say I decompress is I love jigsaw puzzles. Either

02:09:14.279 --> 02:09:16.659
it's on my iPad or it's literally on a table.

02:09:16.739 --> 02:09:21.140
There's a jigsaw, easily accessible. Brilliant.

02:09:21.279 --> 02:09:24.039
Well, for people listening first, where can they

02:09:24.039 --> 02:09:26.220
find All American Leadership? And then let's

02:09:26.220 --> 02:09:28.140
go to anywhere else that they can find you specifically.

02:09:29.119 --> 02:09:33.899
Sure. So All American Leadership is online. I

02:09:33.899 --> 02:09:36.859
think it's actually at allamericanleadership

02:09:36.859 --> 02:09:42.329
.com. You can find me also. My website is MLS

02:09:42.329 --> 02:09:46.329
Consulting, as in my initials, M as in Marcy,

02:09:46.430 --> 02:09:49.609
L as in Levy, S as in Shankman, MLSConsulting

02:09:49.609 --> 02:09:53.609
.net. And I'm also on LinkedIn. But as I said

02:09:53.609 --> 02:09:58.109
to you, I have some challenges with maintaining

02:09:58.109 --> 02:10:01.350
a social media presence. So I try to post every

02:10:01.350 --> 02:10:04.409
week and some weeks are better than others. But

02:10:04.409 --> 02:10:06.989
those are the two places people can find me online.

02:10:07.680 --> 02:10:09.840
Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so much.

02:10:09.840 --> 02:10:12.220
It's been such an interesting conversation. I

02:10:12.220 --> 02:10:15.880
think the ones I enjoy the most, not that I don't

02:10:15.880 --> 02:10:17.939
love my conversations with my first responders,

02:10:18.020 --> 02:10:20.060
but it's when people come from a completely different

02:10:20.060 --> 02:10:23.000
area and you see these parallels, they exist.

02:10:23.159 --> 02:10:25.979
And whether it's the moral courage or the altruism

02:10:25.979 --> 02:10:28.960
or whatever it is, these same principles apply

02:10:28.960 --> 02:10:31.350
because no matter what. uniform we're wearing

02:10:31.350 --> 02:10:33.489
or what profession we're under we're still human

02:10:33.489 --> 02:10:36.390
beings so i want to thank you so much for being

02:10:36.390 --> 02:10:38.310
so generous with your time and coming on the

02:10:38.310 --> 02:10:41.510
behind the shield podcast today well thank you

02:10:41.510 --> 02:10:44.229
really appreciate you having me and i just want

02:10:44.229 --> 02:10:47.029
to extend my thanks to you and my gratitude to

02:10:47.029 --> 02:10:50.010
all first responders because generically i have

02:10:50.010 --> 02:10:53.550
always appreciated each and every one of you

02:10:53.550 --> 02:10:56.289
who chooses that path through my work with all

02:10:56.289 --> 02:10:58.529
American leadership and getting to know those

02:10:58.529 --> 02:11:01.869
in the fire service, my respect and appreciation

02:11:01.869 --> 02:11:05.949
has gone up tenfold. So thank you.