This episode is sponsored by a company who has
truly found a solution to an age -old problem,
and that is Carna Bunker Gear. One of the most
prevalent conversations in the fire service is
should we or should we not train in our bunker
gear? Now the answer to both is yes. As most
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to human health, not to mention the PFAS and
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the manufacturing process, are factors that we
obviously want to minimize. Now the other side
of the coin is that we do need to train in our
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firefighter and exercise physiologist Ryan Conley
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and training that does not require puncture or
tear resistance. Now, as someone who always trained
in gear myself throughout my career, I wish this
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it personally while coaching my tactical athlete
class a few weeks ago and can testify that it
not only simulates the heat retention of frontline
gear, but also the lack of mobility, which is
imperative at operating at a high level on the
fire ground. Now, some additional benefits include
being able to doff the gear when you do get banged
out for a call, increasing the lifespan of your
frontline bunker gear, And then also public education.
Think of the number of times that we allow, for
example, schoolchildren to wear our gear when
it's infused with all these carcinogens. So there
are so many real world applications for a fraction
of the cost of IDLH rated bunker gear. So if
you want to hear the whole story behind this,
listen to my conversation with Ryan Conley on
episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast,
or go to carnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name
is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome on the show, 13 -year veteran
of the fire service, peer support member, and
former collegiate athlete, the Twain DJ Ship.
Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host
of topics, from the TBIs incurred in college
football, his journey into the fire service,
peer support, CBD and cannabis, near -death experiences,
psychedelics, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment. Go to
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to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said... I introduce to you
DJ Ship. Enjoy. Well, DJ, I want to start by
saying thank you so much for initially reaching
out a few years ago. We had a great conversation
about CBD. We had a kind of God moment as far
as this reintroduction, and here we are. So I
want to thank you for coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast today. Oh, it's an honor. I'm
glad that we got back in touch. Like I said,
that's a funny story of us getting back in touch
with you mixing up me and DJ Shipley, because
when you messaged me, I was like, all right,
it's been a while since we last talked. Maybe
something else came up. And you said Ryan Parrott
and Marcus Capone. And I was like, I don't know
who Marcus is. I don't know who Ryan is. So I
looked him up and he said he was a Navy SEAL.
And I was like, okay, Marcus Capone's a Navy
SEAL. And I was like, DJ Shipley is a Navy SEAL.
DJ Ship is a fire captain. I was like, they are
10 years older than me. So I was battling puberty
when they were battling. overseas yeah there
was a lot going on between the differences but
it was very like you said there's no coincidences
in life so there's a reason why that happened
yeah no 100 this happens those people have been
thinking about getting on the show for years
and years and years and all of a sudden everything
aligns and it's like all right this is the right
time to do it so obviously that was the case
with us well very first question where on planet
earth are we finding you this afternoon So I
am in China Grove, North Carolina. That's my
hometown. That's where I was born and raised.
And I was born here. And then I ended up moving
to Spencer, North Carolina for a little bit.
And then I came back here when me and my wife
met because she lived here. So I just moved back
to China Grove. So let's start at that. So from
your childhood, tell me what your parents did
and then how many siblings you had. So my dad
was a garbage man. He drove a garbage truck.
And I was like, all right. i kind of saw the
reasoning why he did that and my mom she she
drove school buses and then she ended up leaving
that and just kind of um working with um in houses
for like remedial adults or mentally handicapped
adults and she did that for a little bit then
she went back to school got her degree now she's
working at the va doing like um payroll and stuff
like that so and i have you said how many kids
do i have um no siblings Siblings I have, gosh.
So I have one, two, three, four, five. Five brothers
and two sisters. You know you have a lot when
you have to literally stop and think and count.
Yeah, I had to sit there and count on my fingers
how many I got. But yeah, we have a lot of siblings
around us and whatnot. And I have a few cousins
that I consider siblings. So then because we're
so close, we've been through so much growing
up that I just, it's just one of those things
I consider them. my brothers or my sisters and
stuff like that with the um with your dad first
with the the uh you know trash collection world
that he worked in what are some of the stories
that he's told about that because i mean you
hear everything from you know them finding abandoned
infants to you know doing cpr on people to you
know so many amazing stories through to myself
including The trash guys were my heroes when
I was little. I was that little kid that used
to wait for them. Sometimes I'd put booby traps
for them too, and they fell over and hurt themselves.
So talk to me about it. What did he tell you
about the highs and the lows of his profession?
The biggest thing with that, so he started out
doing that, but he had a CDL, so he ended up
being a truck driver. So he kind of did a little
bit of both, but with the trash truck thing,
that was the furthest back I can remember of
what he did was that. And he took me on a couple
of rides with him. back in the 90s when I was
younger, and I remember riding around with him.
I do remember a couple times going with him and
getting the big dumpsters and dumping them off
and everything. I was just kind of like, that's
pretty cool. You know, you never think about
anything like that. That's pretty cool. But then
he ended up going and driving a tractor trailer
for a company, and he drove that for a little
while, and then he got laid off because he had
back surgery. and he got addicted to pills at
some point and and the pain pill painkillers
and it was one of those things that kind of it
devastated me at the time but then i was just
like okay it happens it never it never knew that
it would come back around full circle to where
i'm in the fire service and that's one of the
things popping up that's happening a lot is how
much addiction is within the fire service how
much addiction we see around us So he ended up
passing away in 2011. And what's funny about
that story, like I said, there's no coincidences.
When I was in recruit school, we were going through
EMT, and we came across congestive heart failure.
And I started listening to the ways they were,
the symptoms of it. And I remember my little
brother, he was there when my dad passed away,
telling me how he sounded like he was drowning,
how he was trying to breathe. And his wife said,
He said he couldn't breathe and he laid down
and they said he started sounding like he was
gargling. And I was like, that sounds like congestive
heart failure, like the fluids building back
up in his lungs. And it was ironic that my career
gave me closure on that part of my life that
I didn't have. I just interviewed a guy, Rick
Mountcastle, who was the lawyer that took Purdue
Pharma to court. They were the ones that created
OxyContin. And so, you know, your father obviously
was probably one of the very many people that
were caught up in the ripple effects of initially
be given prescription opioids. And then, you
know, a lot of people, obviously, when the pill
was all those closed down, that created, you
know, people moving into other areas to get that.
Literally millions of people have died from that.
And that was FDA approved through, you know,
a corrupt government at the time. So, you know,
this, I mean, it breaks my heart, but yeah, I
mean, there's so many, I remember a full arrest
I went to and I was still an EMT at the time.
And we pushed Narcan and I was at the head and
I'm like, dude, I swear I saw some light go back
into his eyes. But I wasn't the medic. You know,
my friend was a lead medic. And so he carried
on all the other drugs. But I guarantee you that
was another guy. I think he was in construction,
had shoulder surgery, was given opiates and we
never got him back. So. So, yeah, I mean, the
the ripple effect of that kind of, you know,
gross corruption and all the people, the lives
that affected, you know, I'm sorry that your
family was one of them. At the time, I was kind
of blinded to it. I kind of was just like, he's
just taking pills for his back. I didn't think
of it as anything other than that. And then,
like I said, the more and more I started running
calls and running things and I started putting
them together, a lot of people that have surgery
or anything like that that use pain pills end
up addicted to them or to the point where they
can't find any other remedy to help them. And
that's kind of what led me into my research about
CBD when I was in Charlotte. That's what led
me to my research about that was how many firefighters
put off a surgery or put off a treatment until
they retire because they either don't want to
get hooked on pain pills or they just would rather
not get in trouble for having pain pills and
needing them on duty and not being able to do
their job. You know, so there was a lot. behind
that research and with cbd it was very promising
but i i had came to a head really quick when
i talked to the city and uh the city drug policy
lady was kind of like this is not drug policy
lady talking to a firefighter this is her say
her name is tiffany tiffany talking to dj your
job and what cannabis is will never they'll never
mesh they'll never be able to be accepted together
because we stand for something a lot more honorable
when the stigma on cannabis is not as honorable,
so to speak, but there's also that stigma on
cannabis and psychedelics and all the other things
that are there that could possibly help us. Yeah,
it's crazy. I mean, the zero THC CBD needs zero
discussion with anyone anyway, because you are
literally taking... just hemp there's no thc
in it and i think the rescue one cbd is the one
that i you know would send people to but that
is so sad because yes you can go to a physician
and get muscle relaxers and opioids and you know
psych meds and it's totally fine but you take
something that's been extracted from the hemp
plant and let's say it's zero thc even that 0
.3 has been removed and there's all this stigma
well The CBD is just simply going to be therapeutic
for you. All those other drugs will actually
alter your state of mind. So there's stigma around
the wrong things. That's the problem. And the
stigma, and that's my biggest thing for being
an advocate for what we do and how that can help
us, is because the stigma is so negative for
so long that it's so hard to say, hey. This is
actually something that's going to help us. This
is actually something that is going to help the
newer generation coming in that are going to
have to see certain things they've never seen
ever. I don't think anybody's supposed to see
the things we've seen in 14 years in their lifetime.
So think about what they can use to help with
the coping mechanisms for that. The stigma on
psychedelics also is just... It's just as bad.
Psychedelics and cannabis are both just as bad.
But the benefits for anybody that takes them
is astronomical. It's amazing to see that. And
that's like in Waves and War, I have been immersed
by that movie. I've watched it like five times
over and over, just picking different things
apart from Marcus, DJ, and Matty's stories. And
I showed it to a couple of guys at the fire department.
yesterday the other day and they were like man
they look like firefighters that sounds like
that sounds like what I go through daily and
I was like yes so as we keep watching and we
keep relating the trauma that they went through
and the trauma that we've been through or continue
to go through I guess I started doing some neurological
study and from when I the way I interpreted it
is trauma is trauma the brain doesn't decipher
where you get that trauma from it's trauma and
how the brain processes it is the same way whether
they were in battle or we were doing cpr on an
infant that trauma still has those same effects
on our brains and then you add the tbi or concussions
from football because i played football and then
you don't know what concussion gave you the tbi
or what flashbang gave you that tbi but it's
there and it has the same effect as the concussion
that hernandez had or whatnot Well, and the other
thing that we have in common, I was just spent
literally last week, I was around a bunch of
seals. I did the documentary premiere for 7X
where it was out in Dallas. And then I went down
to Echelon Front where, you know, Jocko and Leif
Bavin's conference that they put on. There's
a load of seals attached to that as well. But
that community has leaned very heavily into psychedelics,
especially Ibogaine. But the thing that we also
have in common with, ironically, the military,
but also incarcerated people, is a high level
of childhood adversity that drives us into the
military, into police, fire, EMS, because we
want to help. We also want, in a way, a distraction
from the thing that we're trying not to think
about. So when we go through these therapies,
more often than not, you hear, it wasn't the
fire. It wasn't the PD code. It wasn't Fallujah.
It was actually... you know, what happened when
you were eight, nine, 10, 12. So I see that as
a commonality as well. These medicines are allowing
us to revisit some of these traumas and then
reframe them. And now that that carries on the
healing. Yeah. I noticed that one of the ones
that set with me was when DJ Shipley was talking
about his, he was cutting the grass and he ran
over the root and his dad freaked out on him.
And then he, he ended up doing that to his daughter.
And I was like, That's absolutely, it's insane
that that's one of the things that the medicine
brought to him. It was like, this is what you
need to focus on. You've seen this and this is
what you didn't want to be. And this is what
you are. So I started watching a show. I watched
it a long time ago, but it was called The Mind.
It's on Netflix, The Mind Explained. And they
talk about psychedelics. And they talk about
one of the words I heard so many times in Waves
and War was ego. was that voice inside your head.
And when I watched the mind explain, they said
your ego comes from your default mode network.
Your prefrontal cortex is speaking with, I can't
remember what the other part was. I have to go
back and look at it. But it's where your ego
is. It's what makes up your identity. So like
you said, for all of us that are in the business
of the fire service or military, it's like we
have that ego that needs to be... I guess you
could say revisited every time we go through
a different part of life. So with kids from childhood,
so you're looking at your father who is the only
man that you really have to model and you're
trying to be like him, but he's not accepting
you as a person or even as a man. So now you're
pushing yourself to get approval as a man for
years. So then once you get to that point where
now I'm in middle school, Now, I've already changed
from elementary. There's another ego change,
another identity change. And if you're an athlete,
that's another thing that goes on top of it.
Somebody says, your coach comes to you. And a
lot of players that don't have fathers see their
coaches as their fathers. So they see their coach
say, I need you to make this play. I need you
to make this shot. And that puts another level
of pressure on you to seek that approval. And
it just keeps on compounding until you become
an adult. And now you're like, what's my career?
So many times as men, we question our identity.
We question what we're supposed to do. You know
what I mean? And you're always seeking that approval.
And then in Waves and War, when Marcus was just
like, this ain't none of my fault. Like, I did
the best I could with what I had, and it's not
my fault. And it's like, you can see, I could
literally see the change from the pictures that
were popping up to who we were talking to. in
the interviews and i was like they look so much
healthier they look so much better just from
that little bit of treatment i was like why are
we not pushing this out to the people that need
it you know it just it blows my mind when you
look back now because we'll get into to your
football you talked about how the coach becomes
a mentor or a father figure even was that an
element of your upbringing too pretty much like
my mom she was a single mom and my dad was we
lived around the same area so he would come pick
me up but and he was at my games but when it
came to me having that in the house I didn't
have that so when I go play football or when
I go wrestle mainly football and wrestling and
then I had a track coach who was the best track
coach in the state for a while and those three
guys would always shape me and help me to be
the best I could and put out everything and give
everything on the field. So when that translated
to the fire service or when that translated to
college, when I focused in on just playing football
for college, it was almost the same effect where
you're like, I'm still seeking that approval.
I'm still making sure that I keep my coach happy
because that's the person that believes in me
right now the most. You know what I mean? You
know, it's really interesting because I've had
this conversation a lot with people like yourself
that were high level athletes in school, college,
or maybe even beyond. And then the coaches, you
know, strength and conditioning and the actual,
you know, skills coaches. And when I moved to
America about 22 years ago, you know, I've told
the story a lot. I started realizing that a lot
of the guys I would talk to that were in their
like late 20s, early 30s. It was almost like
this Uncle Rico story over and over again. I
could have, would have, should have had it not
been for my ACL, my labrum. And I started thinking
like, what the hell are we doing to youth athletes
in this country? Because where I came from and
the era I came from, you didn't really have that
high level of performance in schools and colleges
unless you were clearly going to be. you know,
a Premier League football player or, you know,
just one of those. And then, of course, yeah,
you could go through the farm leagues and, you
know, be groomed to be a high -level athlete.
But the rest of us were just playing sport for
fun. That was it. Play other schools. But there
was no, you know, gym time, for example. We weren't
in the weight room. There was no weight room,
you know. Have to pick up sheep and bench press
them. Well, that's what I've seen because I've
got – so I've got four boys and they're in all
different levels of sport. I've got a college
athlete. i got a high school athlete i have a
fifth grader that he plays with middle schoolers
he so he'll be able to play up so when he'll
be in middle school then i got a nine a nine
-year -old that plays i mean he's just he's just
he's just a monster on the field they all are
like from top down they can all play baseball
but there's so many guys like you said that didn't
get that chance to make it but knew but had all
the tools that are teaching the younger generation
how to do it And that's where you're getting
higher caliber athletes and higher caliber firefighters
and police officers because the people that are
done are passing on that information. I know
for me, I pay a lot of attention to some of the
veterans in the fire service because when I was
at Salisbury, the guys that were teaching me
were fighting fire before I was even born. They
were fighting fire in 85, 86, and I was born
in 88. And they're teaching me how to do what
they do. They've been on for 30 years. So I learned
old school way. Salisbury taught me the old school
way to be a firefighter. That's my base level
of training. There's a captain that was in Charlotte.
He's retired. And one of his lines was, when
shit hits the fan, we revert to our lowest level
of training. And I'm like, he's got a point.
My lowest level of training is old school firefighting.
You know what I mean? I take pride in having
that because not many people are going to know
what that old school type of firefighting is.
So we don't fight fire as much anymore like we
used to. Now, some places do. And some places
do. When you train on it, you get a chance to
use it. But some places don't. Some of our stations
in Charlotte don't. They're just slower stations.
And they don't fight a fire as much. So we have
to work on honing that skill a whole lot more
by talking to veterans and people that have been
through it. Yeah, no, I agree with that experience.
I agree completely with the injury. So I realized
that a lot of the high schools and colleges would
squeeze out performance from the youth athletes,
but at the expense of their longevity of their
wellbeing. And you just kind of made me think
one of the elements is probably contributing
to that is exactly like you said, because there's
this mentorship element. Kids are putting all
their trust in this person. They actually want
to impress this person. So when they're asked
to maybe do things that are too much, they're
just not questioning it. So it shows how important
it is for responsibility at the coaching level
to find that balance between, yeah, I want to
win this high school game. But if I keep drilling
these kids and their shoulder or knee doesn't
work anymore. macro level, what was the point?
Yeah, we won the game, but now that kid never
plays sport again. We've just destroyed the life
of that adult then. So I think it's a really
important conversation. You can have both. And
the higher level athletes, a lot of times they
do. But at the high school and college level,
especially maybe some of the ones that don't
have the most well -versed coaches, the danger
is that the win becomes more important than the
actual well -being of their team. Absolutely.
And that translates through from childhood to,
like you said, being an athlete to even being
in the military. You know, the military asked
those guys to go fight, put their lives on the
line. And then when they get back, it's like,
thanks. See you later. They ask us as firefighters
to beat ourselves up, sleep deprivation, you
know, anxiety, heart issues, cancer, all that
stuff. And then at the end of it, oh, you don't
have insurance. And you're like, well. Okay.
Now we'll give you a little something to supplement
for not having insurance when you retire, but
you got mental health issues. Oh, we got a little
bit of things here. And one of the questions
when I got on the peer support team in Charlotte
was on a questionnaire. They said, do you feel
like Charlotte provides an adequate amount of
resources for mental health? And when I first
started, I was like, I don't. really know i don't
really know if they do now it's gotten a lot
broader to the point where we have like a flow
chart that lets you know like this is how you
need to evaluate yourself to know when to go
get help you know i mean but the approval like
you said the seeking that approval is what your
identity comes from you know because like i said
you look at your coach your coach is like laid
on the line and you're like okay, I'm going to
lay it on the line for this guy. You'll do the
same thing for a captain that you have respect
for. On the fire truck, if a captain looks at
you and says, we need to take this wall down,
and you're like, all right, and you don't even
question it. You go take the wall down, and now
you're waiting for the next thing. There's some
people that won't do that for a captain they
don't respect. They won't do that for a chief
they don't respect. They'll be like, no, I don't
want to do that, chief. And now you're sitting
here fighting with people, trying to get them
to do the job. And so there becomes a certain
level of, respect that comes into that. There's
no doubt that the people that their dads treat
them like crap, they still have a level of respect
for them for some reason. It's their father.
When you don't have that and you have a coach
or a captain or just another person that you
come across that just really resonates, you meet
them at work, you see that you want to keep on
trying to improve. for that person to give you
praise or whatnot. And that's where the lay it
on the line comes from, is when you seek that
approval and you seek that praise and you continue
to beat yourself up. So the movie Concussion,
when I watched it, I was just sitting there looking
at it. And when the doctor first discovered it,
and I was like, when they looked back at Webster's
career, in the nfl and like he he laid it on
the line and then he ended up being homeless
mutilate self mutilating himself and then eventually
he ended up killing dying from it and it's just
like that's like we are asked that as as men
as people as people in society to continue to
provide to continue to show up you know i mean
and we don't ever think about us we'll never
think about how do i feel in this whole situation
Absolutely. What about TBIs? What position were
you playing in football? I played defensive end
and tight end, and we were in the trenches. It
was always a fight in the trenches every time.
So, like, on defense, you make a hit, make a
tackle, and you're just like – and you wake up.
And I say wake up because you hit the ground
and you open your eyes, and it's still fuzzy
and it's still like – the light – of course,
you got the Friday night lights, but then it's
just like – it's still fuzzy. You're just like,
man, that was a good hit. But then it's just
like – My head hurts. But it's not bad enough
to where I'm like, I'm going to leave the game.
It's not bad enough to where I'm like, I need
to take a break. I'm going to just go line up
and do it again and do it again and again and
again and again. And sometimes you get to the
point where you're hitting somebody just as big
as you, just as fast as you, and y 'all are hitting
just as hard. And I was like, that's insane.
I never had a true concussion. the little concussion,
everybody says the micro concussions still have
the same effect. And I was like, I know I've
had some of that where you hit somebody who's
kind of dazed for a minute. So I want to, I've
seen the TBIs in Waves and War when they said
that Marcus and DJ and those guys were diagnosed
with TBIs from concussions, from breaches and
stuff like that, explosives going off. And I
was like, I wonder if it's like, if that has
to be like the same. correlation you know i mean
yeah yeah but the same as i look back i didn't
play um rugby but i haven't really had football
we have football but not the same football in
england but um i didn't play like a you know
a tackling sport but i was a martial artist so
i got kicked in the head and punched in the head
and so when i look back it's like okay yeah no
i did especially as i actually got into my 20s
i really really took some some headshots so yeah
i mean you and then you add that to sleep deprivation
which we'll get into in a bit That actually has
the same impact on the neurons as trauma does,
where the myelin sheath gets what they call demyelinated.
So it it degradates, degrades, excuse me. And
so you have the same thing. So if you've got
TBIs and chronic sleep deprivation, you're basically
doubling down on the damage then. Yes. And that's
and that so that was one of the reasons I went
into looking into like the neurology of TBIs,
trauma on the brain and stuff like that. and
i had at one point i thought just trauma can
damage brain cells but then i looked and i said
you know it has to be something else in there
to damage the brain cells sometimes it's physical
sometimes the trauma from the concussions is
what damages the brain cells and that's what
kickstarts the cte and whatnot but like when
you think about how our brain communicates I'm
sure we're probably going to get later on in
talking about psychedelics and what they do with
the brain. But when you think about how the brain
communicates and the way I looked at it with
CBD is when you have a traumatic experience,
it's like a pig path through the woods or deer
path through the woods. It's a beaten path all
the way through. So anytime our brain associates
anything close to that trauma, it goes back to
that moment. So you can walk by a car that was
yellow and you ran a call 10 years ago of a yellow
car with, it just stuck in your mind. And it
takes you back to that 10 years and you're on
that road of trauma again. And that's kind of
like what I thought, okay, that road of trauma
is those brain cells being used too much. And
that creates damage to the brain cell. But the
more I looked at it, they said that the TBI is.
what kickstarts that and whatnot. So you mentioned
playing football in college. What were you studying?
I studied sports management. So sports management
was what I stopped on. I was originally business,
and I was like, this is too much. I'm not going
to be a businessman. That's not my path. So I
switched from business to sports management.
I was like, I can do that. What's funny about
that was my senior thesis of sports management
with my professor, I wrote a paper on the benefits
of marijuana and neurological diseases like Alzheimer's,
Parkinson's, and dementia, PTSD, because I wanted
to go to the military when I graduated college.
Because it popped into my head for the military
is because I was recruited by... The Citadel
College, they came and got me out of class. This
big giant dude came and got me out. He was talking
about football and everything. He says, well,
we practice at 4 o 'clock in the morning. I was
like, you do what? You practice at 4 o 'clock?
He said, we practice at 4 to 6, and then you
get dressed. You go PT before class. I was like,
I'm 18. There's no way my mind is even motivated
enough to get up to do that. But the Citadel
came and talked to me, and that's kind of where
I was like, I can go into the military after
college. So PTSD was one of the things that I
talked about as far as how cannabis can help
with that. And then the last thing was cancer
treatments. So I wrote a paper on it, a senior
thesis. I handed it to my professor, and my professor
was like, this is a very good paper. He said,
you might want to continue researching. those
things, the correlation between those two. And
I was just like, I'm just trying to graduate
college. I'm not, I'm not, I'm just trying to
write a good paper and graduate college. I'm
not even thinking about that. And now it's come
around full circle to where that seems to be
what I need to be focusing on. You know what
I mean? To try and help people that have mental
health issues in the fire service, in the military,
police officers, I guess you could say first
responders and military. i had a i need to send
it to you i had a guest on um or two i had page
figgy who was the uh the mother of um charlotte
so that charlotte's web with the cbd story that
was her daughter but then i also had dr ben a
bonnie goldstein who i think she's in california
but she treats cancer patients with um marijuana
so with um THC specifically. So, you know, Paige's
story is pure CBD. Bonnie is actually THC. But
like you said, there are all these diseases where
it's incredibly effective. And even things like
bulimia and anorexia, where you're trying to
get people to eat again, you know, and then the
chemo treatments that the THC is giving people
an appetite and they want to eat. So now for
you, you're nourishing the body again. But as
we touched on earlier, both of these are vilified.
but yet they are incredibly therapeutic. Now,
I don't like THC. I don't like the high or any
of that stuff, so it's not even the drug that
I would be advocating for for personal experience.
But when you hear it helps other people and is
so safe in the same time, why would you not be
making it as available as possible for anyone
to use therapeutically? That's my question because,
like... And so I looked at it for anyone, the
people that reached out to me when I was doing
my CBD studies, they wanted it for pain management
and sleep. And I was like, so PTSD wasn't even
a thought process when they were initially asking
me about CBD. And I was like, okay, so let's
focus in on sleep. Let's focus in on pain management
and sleep. And I'm just like, the only way, after
watching it, the only way you can even get access
to this stuff. is if you're inactive or you're
retired because it's illegal you know and it's
like that doesn't help us now like he's like
i said you want me to lay my life on the line
every shift but when i look to do something to
help myself it's like no you can't do that it's
like okay i'll just sit here and suffer for the
next 20 years until i retire and then i'll go
get the help i need and i'm like there's got
to be a different way to go about it whether
it's education Whether it's rescheduling, I don't
know what that is, but there's got to be a different
way to go about introducing those things to first
responders and military. The way VETS is doing
with Marcus and those guys, they're doing it
very good. I want to get the fire service on
board with that to kind of just be like, yes,
it helps all of us. Yeah, it helps them. They
went and fought overseas and fought wars and
away from their families. I'm away from my family
too. And the trauma of the things we've seen
has the same effects. They're getting help. And
I'm sure it can help us in the long run because
firefighters commit suicide. Firefighters, that
was one of the things that really, that was one
of the stories from college. So like when I was
in college, we had a guy, he was a swimmer. So
my roommate. uh was best friends with him that
guy ended up killing himself and we went to the
funeral and i don't know if you i don't know
how i don't know how this resonates with you
but bagpipes at funerals it kills me it breaks
me down the bells when they ring the bell and
the bagpipes at funerals dropped me because when
i was at that funeral for the guy that killed
himself in college when when his casket i still
remember it vividly When his casket hit the concrete
to go into the cemetery, the guy started playing
the bagpipes. And I broke down because I was
like, that's something I've never experienced.
And then I become a firefighter and go to Salisbury
where they had two LODDs, which was Justin Monroe
and Victor Eisler. And they'd have the memorial
for them every year. And the bagpipes are played.
It just keeps on resonating. That bagpipe sound
resonates in my head. Every time I think about
it, LODD or anything like that. I think I wrote
about it in One More Light. When I was a lifeguard
in London, there was a guy, this is pre -fire
service. There was a guy that used to practice
the bad pipes on Hampstead Heath, which is a
big park in North London, where I'd lifeguard
on the ponds and in the pool. And it was cool.
You'd walk to work and you'd hear this guy playing
these tunes. You're like, oh, that's nice. And
then you go off to work and then you become a
firefighter. And, you know, six funerals later,
they're like, I cannot hear bagpipes anymore.
I just can't. I mean, not to the point where
I'm triggered and, you know, I'm going to burst
into tears. But people are like, oh, we got the,
you know, firefight memorial. I'm like, OK, good.
Have fun. Because, I mean, it's just twofold
for me. It's firstly, I don't want to hear bloody
bagpipes anymore because, you know, it's the
wailing of the families in the last call, like
you said. But the other thing is with some of
these memorials is when you are, as we're talking
about. When there are solutions and there's a
resistance to the solutions, now some of these
memorials may be angry because we're so good
at putting on class Bs and bringing on the honor
guard and playing the drums and the bagpipes.
But then when you come to them and say, well,
what about CBD? What about 2472? What about,
you know, clean cab, all these things like, oh,
we don't want to hear any of that. We just want
to be really good at burying our people. And
that I've realized recently actually pisses me
off. So where it used to be nostalgic and honorable,
now it just makes me angry. Yeah, because like
you said, you're sitting here and you've already
seen so many people die from this job, whether
it's military, fire, like any of that. You've
seen it and you hear the bagpipes and you know
that there's a solution. You know that there's
a way to help us. And therapy sometimes, yes,
therapy is good. Therapy is a maintenance. To
me, from what I've noticed, Ibogaine and DMT,
that's what's going to open you up and tell you
what your problem is. Therapy forces you to talk
about it. Actually, meditating and mindfulness
makes you hone that skill of how to continue
to change that circuitry in your brain to get
better. just the kickback from my research. It
was just like, so it halted me. That's why me
and you hadn't got back in touch for so long
because it halted all my research. The episode
that I called you on was, I can't find it anymore
because I went on Apple. I went on Apple and
it stopped. It started like three, episode three
something. And I was like, I know we talked before
that, before episode three something. was when
I reached out to you. I think it was like 150
or something like that. And I was like, where's
the rest of your episodes? And I couldn't find
them. So I was going to go back and look again
to see if I could find that doctor. It was a
sleep doctor. And his episode... It might have
been. Yeah, because on the website, you can go
all the way back. A lot of these podcast apps,
it's only like 300, 500, and then it stops. So
this is why I do the repost of the bonus episodes
now to put them back on the top of the pile.
Yeah, because I remember listening to that episode
and it was right in the middle of my research
and I heard the whole thing. I had just started
narrowing it down to being sleep. Sleep deprivation
was the thing that was killing us or hurting
us and destroying us. And I listened to that
episode and I was like, man, that was a good
episode. And the things he was saying, I understood
exactly what was going on. That's when I reached
out to you and we talked about it and whatnot.
Well, let's talk about your journey into the
fire service. So you're doing sports management.
You're playing college ball. How does that lead
you into the fire department? So when I finished
up at Catawba, I went to Catawba College. It
was a Division II football program. Finished
up there, and I was in the work. I was trying
to find a job. So I was going and doing desk
jobs and communications centers. I was like,
this is terrible. I do not want to sit behind
this desk. and put a suit and tie on every day
so then i ended up getting a job just a real
quick job at the daycare that was behind the
catawba and it was funny because some of the
moms would come in to pick up their kids and
i'm this giant dude holding a baby and they're
just like oh my gosh i'm like they're fine they're
like a little baby but um the head of hr in salisbury
reached out to me and the reason i chose fire
department was because when i was sitting at
home before When I stopped doing the whole interviews
for desk jobs, I put an application at Spencer
PD, an application at Spencer Fire Department.
And I said, whoever calls first, that's what
I'm going to do. And I'm just sitting there waiting,
waiting, waiting. The fire department calls first.
And the chief there was a captain in Salisbury.
And he says, hey, I think we're going to, he
said, I think Salisbury is doing a live -in program.
You should apply for it. I was like, all right.
So I went ahead and applied for it. They reached
back out to me, said they're not hiring anybody,
but we are doing a live -in program at some point.
We'll be in touch. So I continued to work at
the daycare. And one day, my friend that was
in HR called me, because her brother used to
be a firefighter in Salisbury, calls me and says,
hey, are you serious about being a firefighter?
I was like, absolutely. She says, Chief Parnell
wants to meet with you in 10 minutes. And I had
to run home. It was a mad dash to run home. get
dressed, get cleaned up to go to the fire station
and sit down. So I get to the fire station. I
sit down with Chief and all the Chiefs, and they
talk about it. And I tell them my background
as a football player and wanting to serve the
community. You know, the normal things you want
to do as a firefighter. And they said, all right,
well, we'll get back in touch with you. So they
send me through the live -in program, and I end
up going to Concord Fire Department for their
recruit school. James, I hate running. Running
is the absolute worst thing ever. And what's
funny about it is that was the only thing they
did was run. And I was like, I'm tired of this.
But I pushed through it. I got through it. Finished
recruit school and I started Salisbury for four
and a half years. That was, like I said, it was
an old school. It was an old school department,
old school guys teaching us how to be firefighters.
We had a bunch of young guys that were. Heavy
hitters. And we fought a lot of fire in Salisbury.
We learned a lot in Salisbury because we trained
all the time. And then I made driver. I was getting
ready to make lieutenant. And then I ended up
going to Charlotte. And once again, James, I
hate running. I hate running. It was the worst.
But they ran a lot. And I was the slowest. I
was the slowest runner in my recruit class. Because
I'm just a big person, I was like, yo, I'm tired
of this. But I finished. You had to run a mile
and a half in under 12 minutes. That's a decent
pace. That's a real fast pace for me. So I'm
sitting here, and it gets to the last time, and
we're doing apparatus hydraulics. And the chief
that was down there, Lance Folk, he comes to
me. And he's a scary dude. He comes to me. He
says. I'm on the turntable doing the aerial.
He says, you already know how to do all that
shit. He said, get down here. And he takes me
into the tower classroom. He's like, he's just
staring at me. And I'm like, oh, I'm in trouble.
I've messed up somewhere. And he says, you got
to run. And I was like, I know, chief. He said,
no, you got to run. I don't want to fire you.
I was like, I don't want you to fire me either.
Like, I'll run. So I kind of crash course myself
in running. And I ran miles. over over trained
running to the point where i was like i'm about
to i'm about to lose it if i have to run anymore
but um on the day i passed my pfq we're walking
down the bubble come out my training captain
was like i don't want you to exert yourself too
much you got to put all you got into that run
that's that approved that's that hey you got
to do this and i was like i gotta do this that
was that identity change of i have to run so
we get down there and we're running and I'm good,
and all of a sudden I can feel it. There's like
this little stab in my rib will start hurting,
and I'll start doing this right here while I'm
running, and then I'll start leaning over, and
I was like, oh my gosh, I'm about to die. And
this is the part of recruit school that I want
to make sure that anybody else that goes to recruit
school keeps to their heart. The dudes and the
guys and girls you go through recruit school
with, that is your rock. those people are going
to push you through everything. And it translates
to on the truck, your company, your crew, that's
your rock. You lean on those guys. So the last
lap I had, I was about to stop running. I was
literally, I was like, I'm going to quit. And
I was like, but I felt two heads. So two of my
guys in my recruit schools, Richard Evans and
Adam Starnes grabbed my shirt. They grabbed my
shoulder and they pushed me. And they started
sprinting. And so as I'm running, like I'm almost
bounding and they're pushing me as every step
that they can. And I'm like, if it wasn't for
those dudes, I wouldn't have passed. You know,
if it wasn't for the rest of the guys in the
class, because we were class 100. So it was kind
of like a spotlight on us because we're the 100th
recruit class in Charlotte. And if it wasn't
for those guys, I would have stopped running.
Everybody around me, my crew, my whole group
stayed with me. until I got to the end and I
sprinted out everything I had to get to the end.
And I was like, oh, my gosh. And I finished it.
I think I had like 11 .58. I was like, I'm good.
I'm good to go. But that's one of the things
about recruit school, about basic training. The
people that you go through that stuff with, they
are your brothers. You have to keep them close
because they're going to help you get through
all that stuff. You want to know some more about
my career in Charlotte? Yeah, go for it. So once
I get out of recruit school in Charlotte, once
again, another running story, which like I told
you, I hate running. After you get off probation,
you have to go back down and do a final PFQ,
which is a final performance fitness test to
get off of probation. So I go back down there.
My training captain came and brought us down
there a month early and was like, all right,
we're going to go in September. Or we're going
to go in, I think he said September. And then
October was my final day to do it. So I go down
there and I'm running. I feel like I'm doing
good. And he looks at me, pulls me to the side
and says, you ain't going to make it. I was like,
don't do this to me. Don't do this to me. Don't
take me off of this run. I'm going to make it.
He says, you ain't going to make it. Go get ready.
Go run some more and get better. So I had a month
to prepare and get ready to run. One of my friends,
he was a retired battalion chief in Charlotte,
and I knew him from one of my volunteer departments
in Rowan County. Dale Brown, I ran with him,
and he tried to kill me. He tried to kill me
a couple times because, I mean, we ran a lot,
but he prepared me for that final PFQ. So the
division chief of training was down there. He
was doing my PFQ with me. Like I said, it's a
funny story with me and running. So I do my PFQ.
We go down there. He says, you got to make them
run in 15 minutes. And I was like, I can do that.
You know, I think I can do that. So I start running.
But as I'm going down and coming back, I have
somebody, I have a training captain pacing me.
So he's behind me. As long as he's behind me,
I'm ahead of pace. He started getting closer
and closer. I'm like, I got to speed up. So I'd
speed up some more. He started getting closer
and closer. I'm like, I'm going to get fired.
Well, my current engine captain, my training
captain, and my battalion chief were all at the
training academy for chief officer development
class. And I'm like, okay, well, my battalion
chief goes and gets my training captain and my
actual captain and says, hey, ship's about to
get fired. Y 'all need to come on down here.
And he's like, what? So my training captain,
he's crazy. He's crazy. He comes down there in
his blue shirt. and his uh his blue shirt and
everything that he's in class and he takes another
training captain's shoes running shoes and he
runs me down and i can hear him so i'm running
i hear i hear feet and i'm like somebody's running
real fast and i look back and it's my training
captain he comes into my ear he's like ship you
gotta run i was like okay so i run and i get
back and i just start sprinting because i'm like
i look up the division chief's walking toward
he's running towards me to get me My training,
my actual captain from the engine is coming to
get me. And then my battalion, I'm like, so I'm
about to get fired. I am running too slow. So
I sprint to the end of the cone. I collapse.
They show me, he's like 1340, 1348. He passed.
And I was like, oh, running is the worst, the
absolute worst thing ever. But it definitely
pushes you to say. hey you're gonna if you if
you want to get better or you know if you want
to lose weight you want to get better go run
that's the only way you're going to do it running
well i like that too because you're talking about
the camaraderie and i remember you know in the
basic fire academy and some of the academies
i have for departments It was that. I mean, if
there was a person that wasn't prepared to put
the effort in, then yeah, no one had any time
for them. But anyone that was trying, and let's
just say they weren't extremely strong in some
of the strength events, or like you said, they
weren't excelling in the endurance side. I remember
over and over and over again, it was like, all
right, well, then let's go get them. And the
whole, you know, whatever it was, group or whatever
the subsection was, we'd go back and, yeah, we'd
all run with through them. And everyone has a
bad day or, you know, a skill or an element of
strength or endurance that they're not as good
at. But there is no rock star on the fire service
that just runs around on their own. Like it is
a group event. It is a team. So I love that because
that's how it should be. And then, you know,
like I said, if someone just isn't. willing to
put the time in or the heart isn't in it then
yeah they will they will ring the bell and they
won't be there anymore but if someone is trying
and everyone can see they're trying i think the
instructors like to see that too when everyone
else wraps around them and like no we're not
leaving you behind come on you can do this um
i think that's what forces a good firefighter
to be honest because that shows heart that shows
that i can tell you to do something and you're
gonna do it until it gets done you're not gonna
half -ass it you're not gonna be like i don't
feel like doing that i'm like hey He pushed through
the run. He pushed through the recruit school.
He'll push through this task that I asked. Yeah,
exactly. That's a big thing for me is that time
in recruit school. What made you go from one
department to the other? This is the weirdest
thing. You can go from one side to another, one
extreme to the other. And that's one of the...
unique parts about Charlotte but then you have
the different places like the airport which is
I'm a captain at the airport now so I made captain
a few months ago and got stationed at the airport
so I was at the airport when I started my career
for six years then I went to engine 15 to drive
for three and then I'm back at the airport as
a captain and it's the slowest station in the
city Station 41 is the slowest station in the
city. So I went from the third busiest engine
to the slowest station in the city. And it's
like, gosh, you know, I went from not sleeping
to sleeping all night. And it's such a dynamic
thing that you can move around from one station
to another and change the entire clientele you
deal with in Charlotte. And it's a big city,
too. I mean, going downtown has its perks. It
has its perks, but it also has its, how do you
say, challenges. So a lot of people that go downtown,
they're ready for a challenge. They want to challenge
themselves to learn standpipes, to learn elevators,
to learn the grid system of the city. Especially
for drivers, you're learning those streets in
a certain way. to help you be a better driver
downtown same thing works for the outskirts but
downtown is just different when you sit there
look at the grid and you're just like that's
crazy and how tight it is you got to be a good
driver to be down there anyway so yeah i think
she was on queen street it was near the hornet
stadium have i got that right with the horse
play um But yeah, I was struck by, I mean, yeah,
they were narrow. There was the train system,
which again, you got to be careful not to get
hit by a train down there. And then also there
seemed to be a lot of homelessness too that I
noticed. Yes. So there was a, there was a stretch
where they had these, it was called tent city.
It was right there in downtown. And I mean, they
had, they had hundreds of tents set up and like,
they had like, it was like a little community.
They had like a mayor, a tent city. He would
come around and everybody knew who he was. And
it's just like, that's weird. But it was, it
was weird that they had that, but then they ended
up cleaning. They were trying to clean up that
stuff. So they tore everything down and push
everybody out to different parts of the city
so that we can, so they can clean up downtown
and whatnot. But there's a lot of homeless people
that walk around, especially in the area where
I was at 15, that we had a few homeless people
that were, I mean, we knew their names. We knew
their names. It was like, Hey, that's Heather.
Oh, Hey, that's a. Oh, what do they call them?
Shoeless Joe, all kinds of stuff. Just different
things and names we have for these people because
we see them all the time. There was one, it's
funny because you talk about the, you know, the
dangerous areas being blocks from the affluent
areas. I had that in Orange County when I was
there. And they talk about, you know, wrong side
of the tracks. It was literally that Orange Avenue.
One side was one of our most dangerous, you know,
poverty stricken areas. And then the other side
were million dollar homes on the lake. And our
first use spanned both those. But the next first
you over, yeah, one of the homeless women that
we go on all the time was a former nurse and
she got addicted to opioids. You know what I
mean? So this is what's so sad is we tar everyone
with the same brush when it comes to, oh, they're
bums, they're homeless. But these are all, you
know, people that back to one of your previous
jobs, like when you were in daycare and all those
preschoolers were everywhere, you weren't looking
at them going, oh, well, there's a junkie and
there's a bum and there's a crackhead and there's
a hooker. No, they were all. Little kids. And
yet, for some reason, they become dehumanized
when they're unhoused. And now they're just a
nuisance. What about positive solutions? What
is Charlotte trying to do to actually, rather
than move them on, actually rehabilitate, you
know, overcome addiction, find people housing?
There's some affordable housing that goes up.
Like every time something goes up, a certain
section of it is dedicated to affordable housing
to help people just have somewhere to stay. And
that was one of the things that a lot of people
don't understand. Like when you run to like newer
apartment buildings, knowing at some point this
apartment building is going to be run down. At
some point, this place is not going to look the
same because they're going to be putting people
in there that just, it's like, not that they
don't care. It's just, it is what it is to them,
you know? So they have some of that. There's
a couple of homeless shelters. in different parts
of the city, which, yeah, you get tired of running
those too. You're like, oh, we're going to the
homeless shelter again. One of the men's shelter,
one of the women's shelter. But there are programs
that are helping people get into those shelters
and get spots at night when it's getting cold
or it's time to go. Because I've always told,
one of our jokes we had on the truck is, if you
put me out here with these people in the streets,
I'd die. I am not. They are tactical bums, I
guess you could say. I don't know how they survive
these harsh conditions, but they always continue
to survive. I asked the question to myself multiple
times driving through intersections at the Plaza
and Eastway. I'm just like, I hope that none
of my kids end up out here somebody's daughter
or somebody's son or brother nephew or uncle
is out here walking around either high on drugs
just anything it's rough and i'm just like i'll
make sure i take care of my children and give
them that don't be that way you know but also
don't don't necessarily turn your back completely
on them like there's they're people too and that's
that's the hardest part is when you get busy
like that your humanity kind of just, you kind
of take it down because you're just like, I'm
here, it's another bum, go get a job. Or I'm
here again, it's another bum, you know, get clean.
And the more you run it, the like, you get almost
calloused to it. You know, that's the sad part
about how many times we run bums or how many
times we run certain people is you get calloused.
You're just like, all right, get up. You know,
you're not really giving them that care. that
you would want if you were in another position
you know what i mean yeah no exactly and then
you know personally you look at we are literally
one of the most affluent nations on the planet
so the fact we have homelessness full stop is
bad but then on top of that i think it's 10 of
our homeless are veterans so those are people
that served in the military that we just discarded
i'd be curious to see how many were doctors nurses
firefighters etc you know corrections other people
that served But yeah, I mean, when we have the
resources and if we proactively invested in society
and gave addiction counseling, gave mental health
counseling, focus more on, like you said, housing,
but in a way that it empowers someone to stand
on their own feet, you know, to have pride in
where they live, not destroy it. You know, we
would make a huge dent. get every single person
no but i mean that's the argument in america
it's like well look it didn't work for that guy
so it doesn't work it's like well but that's
like saying you know we've all seen them those
places that are abusing government housing you
know and they've got the escalate on the front
door on the front porch and you know the kids
are still running around dirty yeah we all know
those examples but how many people have got back
on their feet because of food stamps because
of government housing and now they're thriving
and they're paying taxes and doing well again
so And I think currently there's even less compassion
and altruism with this administration at the
moment, which is probably even worse for our
homeless population, I would imagine. And it
really just takes a little bit of ambition, a
little bit of education on that person because,
like you said, a lot of them were actual contributing
people in society and then just mental health
got to them. The addiction got to them. i watched
the vi i think it was vice where they were talking
about what's it feel like to overdose and the
guy responded it's like slow dancing with god
and i was like gosh if that's if that's his response
of what the description of overdosing is no wonder
people keep continuing to try and overdose because
it's like that's the best feeling they've ever
had in their life but like you said what are
they running from what are they hiding from um
maddie roberts story when he said when he did
the ibogaine he was like ibogaine took this away
it took it took the wave away he said what's
that in the back that dirty box that's chained
up leaking everywhere let's address that box
and i was like there's a lot of people that have
that box that they haven't addressed there's
a lot of people that have that veil over their
issues that are keeping them from getting better
from getting off of the streets from not being
a drug addict or a heroin addict or anything
like that And it's not just drugs. There's people
that are gambling, porn. There's so many things
that alcohol. Alcoholism is probably the worst
silent epidemic I've seen in the fire service
because so many people drink alcohol to sleep.
They drink alcohol to relax. They drink alcohol
to not see the things that they see. And I'm
just like, yo, we got to figure out some, let's
figure that part out. Figure out why we're drinking
so much. DUIs. You know, policies are always
changing because somebody gets a DUI and now
we got to figure out how to make sure they're
okay, how to take care of them because, well,
we didn't take care of their mental health issue.
So now they drink alcohol until they can't stand
and they're trying to drive home and now they're
in trouble. Well, let's address that before they
get to drinking alcohol because I don't drink.
But like one of my captains in Salisbury told
me, he said, if you drink anything. call somebody
to come get you. Call me. I will drive wherever
you are and drive you home. And I was like, thanks,
Cap. And I kind of keep that same mentality for
myself. If anybody's like, hey, we're going out
drinking. If anybody needs something, call me.
I can come pick you up. I don't drink. But it's
a silent epidemic. It's a silent thing where
people are just slowly drinking their lives away
to where now they don't have anything left. They
don't have a family. They don't have a career.
They don't have anything left but alcohol and
the demons in their heads. Well, I want to get
to, you know, when you started becoming engaged
in the mental health side in the fire service.
But just before we do, 14 years in fire now,
what are some of the career calls? And they can
be obviously big bomb burner fires or they can
be simply calls where it was kindness and compassion.
And it's just one of those ones that you remember.
So I can go ahead and give you my mental health
story. So my mental health story started in Salisbury.
I had just made engineer and we got a drowning
call in Salisbury. It was at the city park and
city park has a huge pond in the front of it.
And I'm like, somebody drowned in there and I
can't swim. I can't swim at all. So a funny story.
I went swimming with my kids. Me and my wife
and kids went to this little pool or whatever.
And it was about, I want to say it was like 10
feet deep, 10 feet, 10 to 12 feet. And one of
the toys is down there. And I was like, you know,
I had been practicing. I had been getting a little
bit stronger as a swimmer from like one corner
to the next corner of the pool, like not far.
And I got a little confident and I looked at
myself and I said, I can go get that toy. So
I dove down. And when I got down to the bottom,
I grabbed the toy and I started floating back
up. So when I started floating back up, I went
to kick and my feet were already off the ground.
So I was just suspended in the water. And I'm
like, I'm about to drown. So I start kicking
and screaming and get to the top. And my wife
is looking at me. She's like, is he serious?
And I was like, yes, I'm serious. And I went
back under and my kids were hanging on the side
of the pool laughing. And they thought I was
joking. I was like, no, I was dying. The lifeguard,
she was probably 115 pounds, and she didn't even
budge. She was like, I'm not going to save him.
He's too big. I'm not going to save him. Throw
it in the ring. She was like, I'm not going over
there. But I finally made it to the side, and
I was like, I'm never doing that again. I thought
I was going to drown. But fast forward to that,
we get to the call, and I remember certain things
about the call. I remember pulling up, and I
remember pulling the parking brake, and Salisbury
PD's, one of the patrol cars, had the siren blaring.
I don't know if he left it on to alert us or
if he just left it on because he was in a hurry.
But we get there, and there's two little boys
standing off to the side. One's 10, one is 11,
and then there was an 8 -year -old in the water.
So what happened was... They were throwing rocks
on the ice. It was a little retention pond. They
were throwing rocks on the ice. And he went out
there to get a bigger rock. And he said, man,
this is solid. And when he jumped, he fell through
the ice. And they said he bobbed up once, bobbed
up again, and then he didn't come up anymore.
So we get there. My captain looks at me, Eric
Boss. He looks at me. He says, I'm going to have
to jump in. I'm like, Eric, it's cold. It was
like freezing. 30 or 40 degrees out there. I'm
like, dude, this is cold. He's like, I got to
go in. I got to see if I can find him. So he
starts taking his shoes off. And at that time,
the rescue one shows up and they have a guy that's
in a wetsuit. So they brought the boat too. So
they put the boat in the water and my captain
and the captain from the rescue get on the boat
and they're using roof hooks to kind of drag
the water. And they probably did that for probably
about five minutes because we asked the kids
where he went in at. and then so they put the
boat right there they went in and my captain
says he was just about to say we can't find him
to tell uh halsey to get in the water and he
said he felt something and he started pulling
him up so when he starts pulling him up he sees
a red coat a red puffy coat come up out of the
water and they grabbed and said we found him
so we yanked the boat back to our side and when
i reach in to pull the kid out to put him on
the stretcher when i picked him up i grabbed
one wrist because they had a wrist up i grabbed
his wrist because he's probably 80 pounds and
i picked him straight up and i saw my oldest
son's face on the kid and i stopped for a minute
but then i was like i can't stop i put him on
the stretcher and i started doing cpr and the
whole time i'm looking over at him to see what
they're doing it's like i get glimpses of my
oldest son i'm just like man this is this is
not good i was like this is not good So I keep
going and doing what I'm doing. I do CPR on this
kid all the way to the hospital. We pass him
off. While we're doing CPR, there's dirt coming
out of his lungs. So I know, me knowing what
I know, I know that this isn't going to end well.
So I continue doing CPR, pass him off to the
nurses. The family shows up. And when the family
shows up, they're looking at us like, hey, where's
my loved one? And I'm like, okay. And I couldn't
answer because I'm still a firefighter. So my
captain says they have him back there. They're
going to work on him. And then we leave. So they
do a debriefing at the station real quick right
there. And we're like, nobody wants to talk.
Nobody wants to talk. We don't know you. We're
not talking. So then they come back and they
do a round circle debriefing with everybody involved
in the incident. And I was like, okay, so we
get in there and I'm telling everything and it
gets to me. i start talking and when i get to
um when i get to the part where we're talking
about the parents not being with the children
we were glad that one of those kids had a cell
phone and he was able to call 9 -1 -1 but it
hit me and i broke down in front of all these
people people i don't know people i do know and
i'm just like all right something something's
completely wrong with me right now with this
situation with this call so I talk about it.
I ended up going to therapy for a little bit,
not a lot, just enough to kind of ease the sting
of the thought for it not. And fast forward from
that day, we ran a few more. There was nothing
really after that call that really bothered me
until I got to Charlotte. And we had, I was going
through the engineer's assessment. While I was
going through the engineer's assessment, the
level of stress in that assessment was high for
me. And I hadn't addressed anything as far as
sleep, as far as any other calls that I had been
on. And we're in the lake house with my kids
and my wife and family. And we're down at the
boat slip and we're fishing. And I hear a splash.
And I look back and my 11 -year -old, he was
eight at the time, fell in the boat slip. And
my mind starts to spin because I can't swim.
So I'm like, I can't jump in. So I'm like, I
hope that when I reach down here that I can grab
this kid because he was kicking. And I jumped
down on the dock and I reached down and I grabbed
him. I grabbed his wrist. And when I pulled him
up, I saw a red coat. I seen my oldest son, an
eight -year -old. I saw my current Jarek. He's
11 now. I seen him in a red coat. It was all
meshed together. Both incidents were meshed together.
And I just kind of sat there holding him. And
I was so messed up after that call, after picking
him up out of that water, that I couldn't even
make a taco. We had tacos later. I couldn't take
a tortilla, put chicken, cheese, and lettuce
on it to eat because I couldn't think straight.
And that's when I realized that something was
really wrong then. And that's when I started
getting into the mental health side of it. Because
not just that one call, like I've read so many
calls, like I've read so many calls in my 14
years or whatnot, where I'm sitting here looking
at a kid, like this kid ain't gonna make it.
And then I'm sitting here looking at a family
member and somebody's got to tell that family
member that this child right here or this man
or this woman that you love. it's not going to
make it so um another significant call that kind
of stuck with me was um um doing if doing cpr
on a two week old baby that was that one stuck
with me too because we were by ourselves me and
me and my other friend who we've been working
together for a while um we were by ourselves
for a little bit until until The Rescue 10 in
Charlotte showed up. But just remembering picking
up doing CPR on a baby, it's just like, this
is not normal. That's something that doesn't
normally happen. And it resonated with me. What's
another one? There's a few more calls that I
ran that kind of, not necessarily bad calls,
mostly domestic violence calls. that bothered
me because it's like, I don't like the way that
is going down. Because all of a sudden, this
dude or woman, there's some women out there that
beat men. I mean, this is how it is. But it's
mainly the man or a man puts his hands on a woman
and then she denies it. And it's like, why? Why
are you putting yourself through that? Any other
type of call that involves children bothered
me a little bit. There was one call right before
me and my family went to Disney World. I was
driving Battalion 8, which is the airport battalion.
I was driving the battalion chief, and we ran
a wreck. And it was a drunk driver in an Escalade,
and he had two. three -year -olds in the third
row seat in the back, not seat belt, an eight
-year -old, an 11 -year -old, and then a 14 -year
-old in the front seat. And he was drunk. And
one of the cars, they either T -boned a car that
was running from a drive -by shooting. So the
car shot into a house, and then they were racing
down the road, and the Escalade T -boned them,
and it almost flipped the Escalade over. so it
t -bone them through this car out of the way
the escalator almost flipped over and the little
girl told me a story told me what she did in
that moment the 11 year old girl she said as
we were flipping one of her little sister cousins
was going out of the window she grabbed them
and was holding the other one pulled them back
in and then they all hit the hit the floor i
was like oh my god that's i mean that's terrible
for her to think if i let her go she dies if
we go out of this window we all die and i mean
they were just they were just so traumatized
but that was like one of the things i realized
i was like this job this job takes a toll on
you the things we see bother us so bad sometimes
and a lot of people don't don't address it a
lot of people are are told not to address it.
Hey, don't worry about that. Suck it up. And
I'm just like, nah, man, I'm not sucking this
shit up. I can't do that. So yeah, those are
the few calls that really stand out to me that
have molded the way I operate in the fire service.
We've had a few fire calls. One of my first fires,
a guy tried to set the house on fire. So he started
at the back of the house pouring gas. He started
the front of the house pouring gas to the back
of the house and then lit it off in the back
of the house and it overran him and he didn't
get out in time. So that was my first fire ever.
And I remember going in and we were moving hose
and I stopped and I was sitting, I thought it
was closed. So I stopped in the corner and I'm
sitting and I'm pulling the hose and I was like,
all right, I gotta go. And as soon as I move,
I hear the rescue say, We got a victim. And I
look back and I see legs get drug out. And I
was like, oh, that was a person. I didn't know
it at the time, but I was sitting on the guy
that started the fire, moving hose, getting ready
to go fight fire. And I come out and I was kind
of, I was kind of, I was kind of bothered by
it because I was like, man, that's what I'm supposed
to do. I'm supposed to say that, dude. But he
wasn't, he was already long gone by the time
we got there. But it's still, it was in the back
of my head that he was right there. And I didn't
even notice it, but I was also a brand new firefighter.
It was literally my first ever structure fire
going inside and whatnot. And that's, that's
about it. There's probably a few more I could
probably come across later on, but that's, that's,
those are the, those are the major ones that
really shaped my mental health story as to why
I wanted to do mental health. So what were the
tools that you started using to improve your
own mental health? So the first time with the
kid in the pond, I realized that actually talking
about it is the first step. Once you admit that
there's a problem, that's the first step to getting
the ball rolling. So I started that and I went
to therapy with a... Patty, Lyerly, and Salisbury.
So Lyerly Funeral Home, there was a fire when
I was in recruit school in Concord. Salisbury
had a Lyerly Funeral Home. It was a big funeral
home fire. And I mean, I'm sitting here and I'm
kind of mad because I'm not there. I'm in recruit
school. I was like, man, I want to be at that
fire. And one of the training captains in Concord
was like, don't worry about that. You'll go to
more fires. I was like, but that's a big fire.
I want to go. It was funny when I got back to
Salisbury after recruit school, I put my gear
on, can't go in the fire, can't do anything.
I'm still in recruit school, but I'm just standing
there. And the deputy chief comes up to me. He's
like, what are you doing? I was like, I don't
know, waiting to do something. And he was like,
okay. He said, you want a job? I was like, part
-time or full -time? I don't know why I asked
part -time or full -time. I was like, I should
just be like, yes, I want a job. He said full
-time. I said, absolutely. So that's how that
got started. Patty Lirely was a therapist and
I went to her and she kind of started giving
me like the tapping, like the tapping therapy
and stuff like that. So I did that for a little
bit. And then I was just like, I don't know.
I think I felt like I got better, but I probably
just stopped too early or just got to a point
where I was like, I'll be fine. I'll get over
it. So once I get to, once I go to, I get more
resources. I got more resources when I got to
Charlotte. When I got to Charlotte and we started
going through things and I started actually reaching
out to the EAP and talking to them and getting
some actual therapeutic help, like actually sitting
down and talking to a therapist, that's when
my health started to get better. That's when
my mental health started getting better because
there was one time my wife looked at me after
it was a busy night and I was very tired. I was
just ill. My wife looked at me and she said,
you need to get some help. And I was like, yeah,
I need to get some help. I need to go get some
help. I need to go figure something out. And
the next day I had called and set up some appointments
to go get therapy. Because if you don't get therapy,
there's no point in saying, hey, I got a problem.
You have to go do something to help it. You know,
that's probably the most I did was going to therapy
and talking with somebody. Brilliant. And what
about deciding then to join Peer Support, SISM,
all those things? So deciding to do that meant
kind of after the whole roundtable thing we did
in Salisbury, and then I noticed that that helped,
that kick -started me on the, hey, I need to
go get something figured out because I just had
a breakdown in front of all these people. I said,
okay. when I got to Charlotte and I saw that
we had a peer support team, I said, I want to
be on it. I want to go get all the training for
peer support, get all the training for SISM and
be on that, on those teams and actually be used
when people have pretty bad calls, because I
feel like I'm good at taking in what somebody
tells me. Cause I hear all the time, like when
somebody starts talking about their story and
then they start telling me. what they're going
through or what they, what they went through
and what they saw and how they, how it bothered
them. I'm like, okay, so I'm good at hearing
that stuff, but I need to be better at giving
them some ways to go, giving them some things
that can help them outside of drinking alcohol.
Because that seems to be the first thing that
happens. Like, man, I can't sleep. I'm gonna
go get drunk and pass out. It's like, no, don't
do that. Like walk, drink some water, you know,
functional mushrooms. Do something that's going
to help you wind down because I get it. When
you try to lay down and all you can picture is
a kid in a red coat being pulled out of a lake,
it's tough. You know what I mean? Or just in
general, you just can't calm down because the
last call you ran bothered you too much. So that's
what drove me to get into SISM is to be able
to, and peer support, is... I've written a few
peer support, I guess you could say, calls where
we show up to the departments that have had bad
calls and we talk to them. Being able to come
in and tell the initial things that I went through
and say, hey, I went through these things and
I'm standing in front of you. When you start
seeing these things and going through these things,
you have to reach out and get help. Do not bottle
it up. Do not say suck it up. You'll be all right.
go get help because it doesn't help. It's not
going to benefit you to, to continue to man up
and push through it. If you don't have anything
to push through with, you know what I mean? So
that was one of the, actually being able to have
the tools to give somebody direction was why
I did that. What about work week? Do you guys
have Kelly days? Yes, we do. So we have Kelly
day, Kelly night. And we just got done picking
vacation. So a lot of guys and girls pick vacation
off of their Kellys. So we get a Kelly day and
a Kelly night. So we work half shifts. In Salisbury,
we had 24 -hour Kellys. And I was like, that's
not bad. But here in Charlotte, we have a day
Kelly and a night Kelly. And I mean, it's not
bad, but it's just you got to know with Charlotte's
traffic, it's going to be hectic sometimes getting
in. on a night kelly or getting home on it from
a day kelly or yeah getting home from a day kelly
and coming in or off of a night kelly whatnot
so if you've got kelly days and you overstaff
in a positive way where you have extra bodies
on the rig you're actually set up pretty well
for a 24 72 then see 24 we did a we did a um
schedule study we have a scheduled group talking
about different schedules now So the way Charlotte's
schedule is, it's a modified 24 -48. So we're
on a shift, off 24, on 24, off 48. And then that's
the first part of the tour. Then you come back
after two days, on a day, off a day, on a day,
and then you get a 96. So you get a four -day
break. And that first sequence is a tour. Then
a four -day break, then the next tour. A lot
of people had cut back, especially rookies that
are coming out of recruit school with not many
vacation hours. They can cut back on using their
vacation because you have a four -day break every
couple weeks. You get a four -day break. So I
would think a 24 -72 shift would be good, but
a lot of people say that there's not enough funding
for it or there's not enough manpower for it
because we can't build trucks now. And I was
like, I see that, but the benefits of the three
days off, that first 24 off, that's your wind
down. That's where you get in. You get in the
house, you wind down, and you decompress from
the 24 -hour shift you just ran. Then you have
a 24 -hour shift just for yourself. You can do
whatever. You don't have to wait because you're
not going to work the next day. And then the
next day, you're gearing up, getting ready for
the next 24. Exactly. So those three days right
there are very... very critical to a 24 -hour
shift. Now, 24 -48, horrendous. That's a horrendous
schedule because you only have one day to recuperate
and one day to gear back up. And then you're
back at it again. So I would not want to do a
24 -48 again. That's what we had at Salisbury.
And there was a few other variations of on a
day, off a day, on a day, off a day, on a day,
off 96. And those were... okay but the 24 72
schedule is a very it's like you said it has
the most benefits of all the schedules i've seen
do you have do you have vacancies are you filling
with overtime at the moment either volunteered
or mandatory we're having we're having a lot
of vacancies just because that's just the way
training that's just the way vacation falls around
this time period so hunting around hunting season
the holidays and over the summer. And honestly,
it starts in the summer. So in the summer, you
start seeing more higher backs, more overtime
shifts. Then when it starts to hit hunting season,
you're going to see a bunch of overtime shifts.
And then the holidays, it's going to be a lot
of overtime. Getting close to the point where
we have the mandatory higher backs. So the way
our mandatory policy is, is every Kelly has a
week. So if I'm on number eight, then when i'm
on kelly that whole week i'm on mandatory so
at any point they can call me leaving shift or
at home and say hey you're on mando you need
to come back in and you gotta report to duty
so that's the that's the best way they could
come up with to enact or i guess you could say
enforce mandatories is to say well it's your
kelly week so you're definitely going to be off.
So we can definitely have you come in and work
higher back. You know what I mean? So work overtime.
So this is what's interesting is when people
say there isn't the money, well, the money is
all the overtime that's unneeded, you know, then
also the lack of retention, people that leave
their department after they trained them and
they go somewhere else. And then when you look
at Kelly's, it's a staffing nightmare too, because
when someone who's supposed to be in that seat,
isn't. now either you offer them time and a half
to be in that seat or you know you gotta you
gotta force someone else to come in so if you've
already got kelly days and you've got extra bodies
on the truck you would probably only need i'm
just guessing now a third of a shift to create
an entire d shift and i guarantee you that money
is probably in the retention an overtime budget
alone so it's really interesting you know when
people kind of moving these these i always call
it the rubix cube they're moving the colors around
rather than looking at the cube saying well how
can we make the cube smaller but now you've got
a fourth platoon you've got another entire ship
that you can lean on and now you don't have to
worry about kelly's there are no kelly's you're
not staffing you're not moving people around
so it sounds like you guys are actually in a
great position to do that so i hope they will
look seriously at the 24 72 because you've got
all the pieces now And instead of being murdered
for a tour to get to that four days off, you
just do a 24 and you've got three days off every
single time. Yeah. And I think one of the things
they said about until we hire enough people for
that is called debit days based off of your Kelly.
Okay, you're Kelly or you can put in days that
you want to work higher back. So you would work
and then you'd be on higher back to fill that
delta shift until we hire enough people. Yep.
to cover it. And I was like, I can see that.
It's just going to take time as far as getting
the information and education together to see
if we can provide a fourth shift. Because I see
the benefits of being able to sleep on that third.
But the thing is, too, our part -time jobs are
not taken into consideration when they say, okay,
you're going to be off for three days. Like some
people go from Charlotte. to a part -time job
or from their from their full -time fire job
to a part -time fire job and those days aren't
taking into consideration your recovery you know
what i mean yeah well i think that's a very valid
point because i get a lot of people usually chief
saying well if we give them more time off they'll
just work more and i always say well firstly
that's a very arrogant statement that you're
in charge of people on their days off but i'll
buy If you have a healthy shift, so you've done
your part as an employer to create a 42 -hour
work week for your people, there is nothing wrong
with saying, but there will be a stipulation
that you absolutely can work on your days off.
No one's saying you can't, but you can't work
overnight. So you can't take, like you said,
a 12 -hour overnight shift at a fire department
or an ER or a private ambulance company because,
yeah, we do need you to be rested and recover
to come back in. But you either work for someone
else or you're an entrepreneur and you have your
own business, hanging drywall, landscaping, personal
training, swim coach, whatever your thing is.
And you go home at night and you have dinner
with your family and you sleep in your own bed.
There is nothing, nothing wrong with that if
you need some extra money. And I think it's good.
You have a second identity, a second tribe, a
second income. God forbid you get fired or hurt.
So I think there's a middle ground where, yeah,
there's a responsibility for the individual to
rest when they're in the days off. But that doesn't
mean you cannot work. It's just which type of
jobs are okay. And then there's a few, very,
very small amount. You'd be like, all right,
well, this is going to require you not to sleep
all night. That's not allowed if you're going
to be in that. And I don't think anyone would
have an issue with that at all. Because if you're
not working more shifts at a fire department
because you're fully staffed now and overtime
is few and far between. then now it inspires
people that what else do I love doing? All right,
I'm going to go start doing cabinetry because
I've always loved woodwork and I'm going to start
a side job there. Beautiful. I think that's a
great idea. And yeah, it has its perks as far
as having that time off, especially when it comes
to vacation because the other schedule that was
up was the 4896. Or, yeah, 4896. And I was like,
there's no way. No, it's insane. Absolute insanity.
I don't want that one. Because two days, especially
I was at 15. I mean, it was like two days of
getting beat down. And like, everybody's like,
oh, you sleep in that second day. There's been
so many times I'd get woke up at six o 'clock
or seven o 'clock. And I'll say, oh, my shift
starts at eight, but I'm running. Or I'd come
in early and run a seven o 'clock call for the
person I'm relieving. And it's like, no, you
won't get to sleep in. You won't get to sleep
in. That second day won't be like a Sunday if
you got to get training knocked out. You have
to get hose testing knocked out. You know, you
got to test hydrants. It's not going to be a
sit around the station day. You're going to work.
Because that's what we do. We're going to run
calls. We're going to work. So it's hard to do
two days straight. I mean, and the thing is,
too, some people are like, well, I do two days
when I do my normal shift in a higher back. so
what's wrong with doing two days on my normal
shift and then having four days off and i was
like cuz you're doing a hire back you know you're
working and you're like i'm here filling in i'm
gonna put up the same work but it's it's it's
got a different it's got a different context
to it you know i mean it really boils down to
just the science as well like it is nothing short
of dangerous to be awake two days straight and
and yes we might not always be awake awake but
disrupted sleep. Like you are waiting to be woken
up. And again, I always advocate for the people
in the busy stations, the midside stations, you
know what I mean? The ones that are running.
Yes, there are some anomalies, the sleepy stations
where they run one call a shift, but you know
what? Usually, like we said, they're the veterans
that have done 20, 25 years already. But if you
look at any, any sleep medicine whatsoever, it
is completely undisputed that it is irresponsible.
Like we're pushing it on a 24 hour shift. When
you start going beyond that, now you're just
unprofessional, unethical, and dangerous, acutely
and chronically. So that's the argument against
the 48, is that no one in the world, and even
studies, I mean, coming back to your research,
if you try to create a study that mimicked a
firefighter's month, so you do in a busy department
in 2025 where you've got understaffing and mandatory
overtime, so you need these participants to be
awake. 24 hours every third day and then you've
got to mimic the overtime and then also a 48
or 72 if you want to mimic like the west coast
schedule at least twice a month as well no study
ethics committee would approve that because they'd
say this is dangerous this is unethical we won't
let you do it and that's how we work our firefighters
and i always tell people there's three reasons
we deliberately use sleep deprivation special
forces selection which is just for a few days
Interrogation and torture. That's it. That's
what we do to ourselves. What about the four
days? It's like, well, hold on. I thought you
were actually wanting to help other people. Well,
you're a liability 30, 60 hours in when you're
driving lights and sirens with everyone's family
in these roads and you're doing pediatric drug
calculations in your head. So for safety and
for efficacy and professionalism, I think the
24 is exactly where it should be. And if you
have a 2472. and you need to do overtime, like
you said, it's hunting season, it's Christmas,
that's when you can do a 24 off and then a 24
on to fill that overtime that day. Once in a
while, at least you got a night's sleep in between
the two of them. But the 48, 72, 96, they should
never even be allowed. It's tough. It's tough
because when you sit back and you think about...
48 hours straight on a busy engine company. Engine
15 would run, we would shoot for a quota of 15
calls a shift. So that's 30 calls in 48 hours.
You know what I mean? And it's just like, the
most I've ran was 26 calls in 24 hours at 15.
And I was like, man, I'm about to die. I got
home and this was over the summer. I had got
home and I was talking to my wife about something
and I laid on the floor face down and I passed
out. and my kids my older one of my older kids
comes in he looks at me he's like is he asleep
and she's like yeah he's like has he sleep like
that i was so tired and i was like that's crazy
but like when we talk about when you talk about
sleep deprivation or even just sleep disruptions
what what's the what's the science say about
one disruption in sleep is equivalent to A blood
alcohol content of a drunk person? Yeah. 24 hours
without sleep is the same as having a blood alcohol
of 0 .1. And what's interesting is if you think
about going back to your study, that study is
probably done at a college. They probably had
college students volunteer to be the recipient.
It's a single night's sleep. And I think actually
it's not even no sleep. I think it was just a
reduced amount of sleep, to be honest, if you
look at the studies. regardless so you've got
kids that are probably sleeping every single
night aside from maybe some you know like you
said some drinking at college in the weekends
now you put that into a 20 -year veteran in the
fire service that 24 they've done that 24 you
know what is it i mean hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of times by that so is it 0 .1 still
no i think it's probably way past that and that's
without a 48 you know, now we're in another place.
You see what I'm saying? So if you and I would
be cuffed, if we had a blue, a 0 .9 or 0 .09,
excuse me. And yet we're driving engines and
trucks around with a, you know, 0 .12 or whatever
it will be. I know this, I mean, it's insanity
when you put it that way, but you're absolutely
right. Cognitively. we are so depleted after
that 24 hours without sleep. So, you know, you
do 24, you know, I like the idea of even doing
the latest start time. So you get to sleep a
little bit before you drive home. Hopefully you
come through the door, you made it safely. And
then you're also not so destroyed that you can
actually sit down and play with your kids rather
than face plant on the carpet and fall asleep.
Yeah. Cause there's sometimes when you like,
and every, every firefighter that I've asked,
when they leave after a busy shift and it says
you know that time when you're driving and then
you're at exit 20 you're just driving on autopilot
and also you look over it's exit 30 you're like
what happened yeah i lost 10 miles of driving
or whatever and it's just like that that's the
that's the dangerous part next you know your
your muscle memory or your your just just by
habit you're like oh that's my exit and you look
up you know i've been driving it's like your
body knows it's been driving long enough that
your exit is coming your exit is coming So you
take your exit next to your home and you're like,
how do I get home? And that's the hard part about
being busy because being busy is how you become
a better firefighter. That's how you learn, being
busy. Get on a busy engine company, get on a
busy ladder company, running fires, running calls.
As a captain, you're writing, you're doing reports.
You're actually getting through calls as a captain.
And then that's how you learn how to be better.
But then it takes so much of a toll on you. every
time because like you said sleep deprivation
and i i want to say that doctor said something
about sleep deprivation and cancer t -cells like
if you don't get enough sleep REM sleep your
body can't produce the right cells to battle
to combat cancer cells and i was like okay i
can't remember i gotta go back and look and see
what doctor it was yeah it's probably current
parsley because yeah i mean if you look at sleep
deprivation everything that we suffer from It
is part of the, it amplifies the issue. So the
low testosterone that we see in the fire service,
sleep deprivation, addiction, suicide, depression,
anxiety, sleep deprivation is a massive, because
you heal, the brain takes a bath literally when
you sleep. So we're seeing all these things and
we're not sleeping. It's just, it's building
up. Cancer, like you said, shift work is a known
carcinogen. The WHO, World Health Organization
has it classified. I think it's 2A if I got that
right. So, you know, obesity, I mean, you know,
strokes, all these things that you see killing
us, that is one of the big risk factors of it.
So why would we not address the thing that we
know is contributing to all of these on top of,
you know, fitness standards and, you know, making
sure everyone's fit and healthy so that we bring
down some of the heart disease and some of the
other areas too. But yeah, sleep is a superpower.
And now I've had so many people from the sports
world say, look, if you're not sleeping properly,
then your strength training or your nutrition,
almost means nothing like sleep is the very first
pillar of health that we need to address and
that's one of the things that like i said when
i did my cbd research everything fell by the
wayside except for sleep because sleep was the
root cause of everything so the more i looked
into sleep um i saw i recently picked up one
that said sleep apnea is a concrete a complete
How do you say catalyst of PTSD? Because your
nervous system, when you have sleep apnea, because
I have sleep apnea, I have a machine. Your nervous
system is always being activated when you have
sleep apnea because you're not breathing. So
your body thinks you're dying and it startles
you to wake. The same thing happens when we get
calls. Our nervous system gets startled or we're
already in high alert. And if you're trying to
sleep, which means you're going up and down all
shift, running calls, running fires. nothing
nothing for hours then you go to a pediatric
call you go to a grandma nothing for hours now
you're trying to sleep you get a call in the
middle of the night you kind of come back and
lay down and go to sleep and you can't and a
lot of people reached out to me about cbd for
sleep and i was like okay there's got to be something
there if a lot of people are like i don't sleep
good i can only sleep good when i'm at the station
i can't sleep good at home i'm like that's That's
rough. Matty Roberts said it in Waves and War.
He said when he was deployed, he said this is
the only time I've gotten a good night's sleep
was being deployed. And I was like, that's crazy
because some people say that about the station.
I can only sleep good when I'm here at the fire
station. I can't sleep good at home. You know,
your family goes to sleep and you're just walking
around trying to figure out something to do at
10 o 'clock at night, 11 o 'clock at night when
you should be sleeping. But at the station, you're
like. I need to go to sleep because I know we're
going to run calls tonight, you know? So that's
where I, that's where my, with the psychedelics
and sleep studies and stuff like that, that's
the two things I'm focusing on is psychedelics
for the PTSD side of it. And then sleep as far
as like the maintenance side of it, because like
you said, nothing matters if you don't sleep
good. Well, I've also said this, when we talk
about we die five years after retirement or 12
years younger than the average American, those
numbers should be even more scary because if
you look at who toes the line on a drill ground,
I would argue we're some of the most physically
and mentally fit members of society. That's why
we made the cut. So then fast forward, the number
of dorms I can think of now in fire stations
that look like the bar in Star Wars, there were
so many CPAPs everywhere. The question is why?
These should be very fit for a 50 -year -old
still. Why are we seeing apnea? But again, what
is the common denominator? Whether you run in
a station that sees fire all the time or like
my last place, mainly EMS, but you're getting
up three, four, five times a night, there's your
correlation. Most people... should not be relying
on a CPAP in their, I mean, really at all, but
certainly in their 40s and 50s when they're tactical
athletes. But that is something that we see throughout
the whole fire service. So there's a red flag
for me. Because people like, we'll see people
wake up and they'll have the CPAP lines from
their masks. I'm just like, gosh. And I started
looking into it. It's just like our shift work
getting disrupted. Our nervous system, just like
trauma. our nervous system gets into a habit
it gets into a pig path of waking up all the
time so that's what creates the sleep apnea is
you're trying to sleep so hard that you're startling
yourself awake like you're getting ready to run
a call but yeah well i want to be mindful of
your time i know we're close to two hours now
so i want to throw some quick closing questions
at you before i let you go okay First one I love
to ask, is there a book or are there books that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
discussion today or completely unrelated. So
I listened to, is it Travis Howsey, Travis Howes,
the Charleston Nine. I listened to his Make Your
Own Light book. Matthew McConaughey's Green Lights
book. For some reason, I listened to the whole
thing and I was just like, Matthew McConaughey
is pretty cool. He's a pretty cool dude. The
things he's got going on. I want to say it's
called Imagine Heaven. It's a book about near
-death experiences. And I want to preface that.
So when I was watching it in Waves and War, I
had done some research on near -death experiences
also. And the way they explain their experience
on DMT and Ibogaine, it sounded so much similar
to a near -death experience. Let me double check
and make sure that's the right book. I want to
say it's called Imagine Heaven by John Burke.
And he did a bunch of research on near -death
experiences. And he interviewed kids, older guys,
older women, people that were incarcerated that
had near -death experience. He did so many interviews
on near -death experiences. And he wrote a book
about it. And I was like, the way they said,
the way Marcus and DJ Shipley said. They would
go through a door, go through a drawer, pick
a picture, and it would go to that point in life.
Near -death experiences have the same thing in
your life review. They die, you have a life review,
and Jesus asks you, what have you done with the
life I've given you? And you answer, you know,
then he shows you your life. And I was like,
oh, wow. And I mean, it was the correlation between
all of his experiences, interviews was the same.
So Imagine Heaven is a good one. And then Green
Lights by Matthew McConaughey. It's his autobiography,
just snippets. And Travis Howe's book, Make Your
Own Light. And your book. Well, thank you. Your
book's really, I've been listening to it. Like
I said, I listened to it nonstop. It was pretty
good. Thank you. I appreciate it. What about
films, television, documentaries, any of those
that you love? So I'm really big in sci -fi.
So anything science fiction. I'm Star Wars. Stranger
Things is probably my favorite show of all time.
I don't know if you've seen it, but it is. But
Lucas said something in there that kind of resonated
with me, that there's no coincidences in life
anymore. And I was like, when he said it, I was
thinking about what happened with us and the
whole DJ Shipley thing, and I was like, that's
not a coincidence. That happened for a reason.
I agree. But in Waves and War, definitely. Definitely
one of the ones that I've really gravitated to.
And I'm really big on military movies. I watch
Warfare. It resonated with me. Lone Survivor,
13 Hours. And it's not necessarily what happened
to them. It's just like I feel, oh, and Only
the Brave. I watched that the other day, and
I was just like, this movie. I watched it by
myself. Because I was like, I don't want anybody
to see me cry watching this movie. It is powerful.
It's a powerful movie. Just the stories, just
the grit behind what those guys pushed through.
You know what I mean? I put the mental health
connotation on it. Like when you're battling
your demons in your head, it's the same thing
as battling a jihad or battling the Taliban.
You know, it's in your head. And that's what
I saw with Matt, Matty in. in waves of war it
was like he was he was like i'm still battling
but there's nobody to battle but myself and that's
what i've seen with all three of them it was
like we're still battling something but there's
no there's nobody across there's nobody on the
other side of that saying that i need to be shooting
it's i need to focus on myself i'm battling myself
and that's how i feel when i watch those movies
just like they're battling something and they're
persevering through it it just gives you that
sense of get through it um I like science fiction
movies because I just like to think about what
the future would be like. What's what's coming?
What can we be doing? Can we be regrowing limbs
or, you know, downloading your consciousness
to a computer? Just something just crazy stuff.
Yeah, it's exciting, though. I think the whole
stem cell world is is I think I just actually
I think it was somewhere in Europe, maybe the
ability to actually regrow teeth. So maybe you
and I, when we get older, we won't have to have
those God awful benches, but we'll just have
nice, young, fresh white teeth again. I'll be
the NBA of my country, man. I've seen a bunch
of stuff. I try to, I try to cut my Instagram
from scrolling, but sometimes I get caught scrolling
and you see so much stuff and you're just like,
is that true? Is that true? I like, I like a
good conspiracy theory. I'll sit back and dig
into those and, and just, just cause like. Just
to see what people are talking about or what
people are thinking. Absolutely. All right. Well,
next question. Is there a person you'd recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military and associated
professions of the world? So the person I'm thinking
about, they're out of Colorado, Jacqueline and
Sean Toomey. They are the ones when I started
my sleep, they told me about sleep recovery for
the first responder. And Jacqueline actually
comes to your department. And what she does is
she teaches you a meditation for when you lay
down and go to sleep. It's only 30 minutes, but
it feels like you've just laid down for an hour
nap, two hour nap, because you've meditated and
relaxed your body and relaxed your mind. I reached
out to them multiple times to talk about sleep
and first responders. And when I started my CBD
studies, I reached out to them because. One of
the guys at Charlotte told me about it. He said,
hey, you need to look into them. They're on Facebook.
It's called Sleep Recovery for the First Responder.
Jacqueline and Sean Toomey out of Colorado. They
really have a good idea on how sleep affects
us as firefighters and first responders. I forget
which episode it was, but I had them on years
ago. I think it was during COVID, if I'm not
mistaken. Maybe even like a Facebook live or
something where she even did an actual meditation
during the conversation. I can't remember exactly
now, but I know that we did something like that.
So, but yeah, no, they're phenomenal. They really
are. Yeah, those are the two. Brilliant. All
right. Well, the last question before we make
sure where everyone knows where to find you,
what do you do to decompress? Most of the time,
I kind of just, when my kids and family go to
sleep, I just kind of just sit down. I like to
game. So I'll sit and game a little bit, play
a few games, just kind of, that's my biggest
decompression is just sitting down and gaming.
But every now and then I will sit down and do
like a quick Bible study or read a quick part
of the Bible and just try to interpret that part.
Right now I'm in John chapter, John, the book
of John or the gospel of John chapter one. That's
where I'm at now. And I'm just slowly, slowly
walking myself through that chapter. of John
and then I'll go to the next chapter. And that's,
and that's something I like to do to decompress.
Um, I like the functional mushrooms. Like, uh,
have you heard of life cycle? Tinctures? Um,
I haven't heard of them. I had, um, Oh my God.
Umbo. I had the guys from Umbo on the show and
I actually, I use mud water morning and night
too, which is, which is also the same kind of
thing. Yeah. That's what I was going to look
into mud water. And, um, I just hadn't got a
chance to get to it, but life cycle is the same
kind of thing. lion's mane reishi at night time
to kind of calm down and like tea just to kind
of just take my mind off of like everything that
went on in the day and journaling like i might
type on my computer i might type a little passage
on my computer or write something down that throughout
the day kind of just had me either hemmed up
or i seen myself focusing on my my awareness
of being aware of my anger or emotions and controlling
them i'll write that down like I got upset at
this point at one of my children, and I ended
up fixing the situation without getting angry
or fixing the situation without losing my crap
and walking out. And I like to do that at nighttime.
Brilliant. Well, for people listening then, if
they want to reach out to you, where are the
best places to find you online? So you can find
me. My email is daship, D -A -S -H -I -P -P,
100100 at gmail .com. and um and on facebook
it probably facebook's the same thing dj ship
with a sip is d period j period because if you
type dj ship it it won't pull me up you have
to put the dot the periods in there and you can
find me there brilliant well dj like i said there
was this kind of universal coincidence that brought
us to brought us together again But, you know,
it's been such an interesting perspective. I
mean, every single person that comes on the show,
you know, they have their own story. But we talked
about CBD a long time ago. Now you're talking
about in waves and war and psychedelics. And
I think this is the beautiful, you know, metamorphosis
of the fire service. I think we're becoming more
and more progressive and whether it's the work
week, whether it's psychedelic therapy. There
are so many exciting innovations that we're starting
to lean into. And your perspective from North
Carolina has been invaluable. So I want to thank
you so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Yes, sir. Thank you. Thank you for having me.