This episode is sponsored by a company who has
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episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast,
or go to karnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name
is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome back onto the show former elite
soldier, world championship athlete, and international
musician, Ash Alexander Cooper. Now, if you missed
my first conversation with Ash, it was episode
693. So in this second conversation, we discuss
a host of topics from reflecting on the lessons
of COVID, the 7X Human Performance Project, his
new book, Mindful Soldier, the impact of childhood
trauma, the exciting and terrifying world of
drones, forging elite mental performance. the
healing power of altruism, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I welcome back onto
the show... Ash Alexander Cooper. Enjoy. Well,
Ash, I want to start by saying welcome back to
the Behind the Shield podcast. The last time
we spoke was actually November 2022 on episode
693. You've done a few. Yeah, that was about
the halfway point. I'm almost at 1200 now. So
where on planet Earth are we finding you this
morning? I am actually in London today. It's
been a pretty mad year. I just had to, for my
work. tell them how many days I'd spent overseas
this year. And it's about six months. So it feels
a bit like being back in uniform, honestly, on
an operational deployment somewhere. But I'm
now back in the UK, which is technically home.
So I'm hoping that that's the last travel for
the year. What is taking you traveling now in
2025? My main job is I lead the international
business for an airspace security company called
D -Drone by Axon. Airspace security really in
our world is all about counter drone technology.
So we're clearly fairly topical at the moment
with the number of incidents that are happening
globally with drone incursions, whether it's
on the battlefield or at nuclear sites or potentially
impacting presidents, prime ministers, sporting
events, super yachts, data centers, you name
it. And we protect a lot of those globally. So
it's been quite busy and it's getting busier
by the minute. Without obviously going into any
area that you can't talk about, With your military
background and now this role that you hold, talk
to me about the evolution of the use of this
technology. And then what are some of just kind
of the overarching dangers for the general public
that maybe we should know about? Well, I talk
about this quite a lot, actually, when I've had
to think about the kind of threats that I faced
when I was in uniform. And as you know, from
our previous chat, you know, I've been... lucky
or unlucky to have been shot a couple of times,
blown up a couple of times, had a couple of helicopter
crashes and suicide bombers and stuff that I've
survived attacks from. Of all those incidents
and many others, gun battles and other things
with colleagues around the world, when I think
back to those times, not a single one of those
incidents caused me to ever have to look up really
to worry about what might be coming from above.
the world is clearly very very different now
back then we owned the airspace you know we had
either air superiority or air supremacy and so
what drives me now is to try and see what we
can do to help those who are in a very different
battlefield if they happen to be deployed somewhere
nasty but equally at home you know the threat
from a $200 drone against a sporting event or
a stadium is incredibly high. And it doesn't
have to be a state actor to do quite a lot of
harm if they chose to. So what we're now doing
is obviously trying to identify in real time
for as many of our customers that need it, the
kind of threats that are flying around that may
just be in some cases, ill -educated or... novice
flyers that don't know quite how dangerous it
is to fly an aircraft or fly a drone rather very
close to an airfield to get a cool picture of
a plane coming into land that's very very dangerous
you know if you misjudge the distance or a drone
were to go into the air intake or just hit the
plane so um you know that's what we're doing
is to try and educate as well as provide technology
that enables people to understand what malicious
activity may be or illegal activity may be happening,
but also enable good drones to fly, whether it's
medical supplies or deliveries or whatever. It's
just that lower airspace we're now trying to
help ensure is properly understood, protected,
and so it can be safe. Well, let's expand on
that for a second. What are the incredible innovations
when it comes to, as you mentioned, whether it's
delivery of medical supplies, whether it's firefighting,
any other areas, the law enforcement side, that
this application is being used for the greater
good rather than military or, God forbid, terrorism?
Yeah, I mean, you see it every day. I mean, I
see a lot of stuff online. China seems to be
doing some pretty interesting things with drones
and everything from... massive drones that are
connected to from your, you know, your world
of firefighting with huge hoses that attach them.
And then suddenly they can reach, you know, the
50th floor of an apartment block and try and
help put the fire out before the entire building,
you know, is destroyed or people are killed or
burned in it through to, you know, mountain rescues.
And I mean, all sorts of things. The ways in
which this could be used as technology for good
is incredible. But I think, unfortunately, the
focus tends to be at the moment on all the bad
ways that one could use this technology. And
we're seeing it obviously playing out in Ukraine
every day. And that's where we see the fastest
innovation of the threat and then the response
and that timeline between. The good guys coming
up with a response or a way to mitigate the threat
posed by bad guys is getting shorter and shorter.
The cycle is just speeding up all the time. So
it's a difficult space to be in. So we haven't
picked an easy world to be working, but it's
certainly a fascinating place. And you certainly
can feel that you can do good every day. And
that matters to me and my team in terms of purpose.
Have you crossed paths with Richard Browning?
No, we're connected, but no, I've not actually.
not worked with him in terms of his, his technology,
but it's pretty, looks pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah.
So what was interesting when we spoke, um, he
obviously has the kind of like the Ironman jet
pack basically, but he was talking about the
ability to put a paramedic in, you know, a wilderness
event. So someone, you know, a mountaineer falls
off or something, sending the medic up with,
you know, the bag on their back, um, treating
the patient, putting them in a stretcher, but
then a drone is actually what would carry them
back. Cause I guess, Technically, you can't have
a manned drone. You can't fly with the patient
because of FAA rules or the British equivalent,
but you can send it down with a drone and then
have the ambulance at the bottom waiting to receive
the patient. So it was interesting seeing that
the potential, especially in, like you said,
high -rise events or some austere environment
where you can access a patient with some of these
technologies now. Yeah, absolutely. I think that
the challenge with... really serious injuries
is that stabilization piece that you wouldn't
want to fly somebody if they are serious enough
to need to be evacuated medically by air, whether
it's by helicopter or by drone or some other
means, the chances are they're pretty unstable.
And that depends how much time it's going to
take, obviously, to fly them back to the main
ambulance or the hospital. But that's I think
that's the challenge for a lot of folks now is
like if I were to send somebody and they were
to deteriorate during that flight. you know,
there's nobody there to do anything about it.
So it's a challenge, but I think the opportunities
are immense, you know, if we want to find good
ways to use this technology. Absolutely. Yeah.
I mean, even the automation of compressions,
you know, with some of these autopulses that
we have now, the auto vents, I mean, technically
you could, in theory, set them up with drips,
all things, and then send them down where the
machines are basically keeping them stable. So,
you know, we shall see. Yeah. When I saw some
of the footage coming from that horrendous event
in Bondi Beach, there was now just surface drone
footage of, sadly, far too graphic for the news,
in my opinion, but it's showing some of the casualties,
the shooters. So talk to me about that, the novice,
the wannabe video Instagram star with their drones.
What are the... The challenges and then also,
like you said, even the potential domestic terrorism
or any terrorism threats of the lone wolf, as
opposed to, as you mentioned, the Ukraine, where
it's an actual military force. Yeah. I mean,
Australia is a place that I've spent a lot of
time this year. We've been growing our support
to the nation's security there over the last
couple of years, just quietly building it up
in the background. And we now protect every state
and territory in Australia. So we are. actually
deployed currently, obviously me not personally,
but we have technology that is in and around
Bondi to help with that follow up with the law
enforcement and emergency services working down
there. What we have found Just in summer like
Australia, but it's indicative of any Western
country, really the proliferation of drones,
the ease with which one can purchase without
any piloting skills. As long as you've got a
few hundred dollars, you can buy a drone. And,
you know, I'm sure you are as well being inundated
with Christmas Instagram adverts for, you know,
buy the drone that follows you cycling or skiing
or whatever. You know, the technology is there
to make it very easy for people to get quite
cool. Footage of stuff that they might do, whether
they're Instagram influencers or just people
who want to record some of the cool stuff they're
doing. With that, the risk of just more things
flying is clearly a challenge. And that's, as
I said, what we're trying to do is to help our
customers understand the totality of what may
be flying in that lower airspace that could be
used for good, might be... harmful or maybe downright
being used deliberately for something illegal
or terrorist related. So half the battle with
a lot of our customers, including in Australia,
is to help quantify what is actually happening
in real time, day to day. And of all the sites
that we protect across Australia, we don't cover
everything, but we cover most major cities and
stadiums and everything else across different
government organizations. We're now seeing up
to 125 ,000 drone alerts or drone activities
a month. which is a lot more than people anticipated
for a relatively small, in population terms,
a small country. The U .S. is clearly orders
of magnitude more than that, and Europe is equally
going up pretty rapidly. So the first challenge
for any organization, emergency services or otherwise,
that's trying to keep the public safe is to understand
what actually is flying. And, you know, you referenced
Bondi. I haven't seen the footage. I wouldn't
seek it out. I've seen plenty of that kind of
thing in the past and don't need much more of
it. But I think where we can find ways that if
people happen to be flying, they've not gone
there deliberately just to try and capture unpleasant
imagery, but if they happen to be flying and
capture something that could be used usefully
to understand pre -attack, during attack or post
-attack, so that helps the government officials
actually understand what went on and potentially
prosecute or understand if the threat is more
broad than that isolated incident, then... There
are ways that we should be able to, we should
be trying to leverage that footage and those
flights for good. But the first hurdle is to
understand what actually is there and should
it even be there or not. One last area, two things
on the drones and we'll move on. But firstly,
as a first responder, we used to be told about
secondary devices. You go to an explosion. 7
-7 is a perfect example. The responders all flocked
there and now there's another bomb in the trash
can or when we were young, IRA even. When it
comes to airspace first, what are the forces
that are working against drones going into Wembley
Stadium or whatever? And then what about also
the privacy? Can a drone sit above your garden
and film you or are there things that are stopping
that happening as well? Well, there's... Clearly,
in any country, there'll be areas of restricted
airspace. It may be over government buildings,
the King, Queen's Palace, or certainly airports
and critical infrastructure. So if drones are
trying to fly inside those spaces, then that
should alert. If you have systems in place to
detect those flights, then that will alert the
emergency services or law enforcement to know
that something is there that it shouldn't be
if it's not been registered to be there officially
and legally. But I don't think there's necessarily
anything. I mean, every country is clearly different,
but we support a number of, let's say, high profile
people who do have systems now to understand
what is happening if people were trying to hover
over their house or see who's there or what's
going on. But it is quite difficult, I think,
in many jurisdictions to actually make that illegal
if it's open airspace, if it's not part of a
restricted zone. But in terms of Wembley, what
was the question specifically again on a stadium?
So as far as the Wembley Stadium, what I was
saying was now, as you said, the kind of restricted
airspace, what are the things that are in place
to stop a drone going over Buckingham Palace
or Wembley Stadium that may be a threat to the
security there? Yeah, so the way that you need
to think about airspace security and particularly
in the counter drone space is a layered approach
to both detection and defeat. And in terms of
detection, there are different types of sensors
that might be appropriate or affordable or available
to be used legally by those sites. Radio frequency
detection is generally the foundational layer.
It's the longest range, the best bang for buck
in most cases. And that basically is looking
for the signature or the signal, like an ID of
the drone that's flying. So it might tell you
that here is the pilot, where the pilot's flying
the drone from, here is the live location of
the drone. And here is the home location where
the drone took off from for that flight. Within
that, it'll be looking for the frequency the
drone's flying on, any other sort of data that's
related to that individual drone should be able
to be detected, which will then tell you it's
a DJI something or it's an Autel something or
it's a Skydio something. So that's the RF layer,
which is for 95 % of most of the world is fine.
But where you have non -standard or... drones
that are deliberately being made or flown in
a way that is designed to not be standard, let's
say. Ukraine is a good example where there are
lots of non -standard drones there, then you
might be blind to that signature in radio frequency
terms. And that's when you would seek to add
things like cameras for optical detection and
radar. which even if it's a fiber -optically
flown drone that has no RF signature and is therefore
much harder to see and detect, you will still
not be able to hide from the radar. So that's
the sort of layered approach to detection. There
are other sensor modalities like acoustics, but
generally those three are the main thing, RF
plus camera or radar. And then defeat, it really
depends what legally you're allowed to do. On
the battlefield, you might be able to use laser
or bullets or shotguns or whatever it may be.
Domestically, it's a lot more restricted as you
would expect and hope. But you can jam RF, which
means that you would be trying to block the signal
from the pilot to the drone. So the drone would
suddenly not be knowing what it's being asked
to do. And what generally happens in those scenarios
is the drone might go into a hover to try and
see if it can reconnect with the pilot. If not,
then it will go home, which is fine unless the
home location has been spoofed. And we do see
increasing cases of that, not generally domestically
anywhere, but in sort of combat environments
where the home has been made to be the target.
So if you're only legally allowed to jam the
radio frequency and the drone then goes home.
but home isn't home, you might have actually
made the problem worse or not certainly made
it better. You can then in another non -kinetic
way jam the GPS signal. But again, many countries
don't allow a lot of that to happen. But if you
had the first scenario where the drone is going
to carry on to its target because the home has
been spoofed, the only way to stop that happening
is to jam the GPS signal to the drone so it won't
know where home is, regardless of whether home
is really home or not. That's a pretty fascinating
space. I mean, I'm not technical enough really
to be dangerous, but these concepts, we've got
much more clever people than me who are doing
AI track fusion and all sorts of risk -based
prioritization and various clever algorithms
that understand what is actually flying and happening
in real time so that we can present to the users
the... A single version of the truth so that
somebody who's under pressure in a police ops
room or an emergency room can make a quick decision
and make the right decision about what to do
about the threat before it goes bang or does
something unpleasant. See, I'm glad that we went
down this rabbit hole. Obviously, we're going
to be talking about the book, but this is something
that, you know, I've never heard before. I mean,
Richard Browning is probably the closest. And
then I had a police officer recently that they
use drones for. going into an event so again
you know let's say you've got sydney now you've
got a police drone okay who have we got you know
where are they okay they're on the bridge and
now obviously they can they can figure out the
strategy from there um or you know while they're
in exposures which they actually found on that
scene if i'm not mistaken but then you know on
the other side it's terrifying i i for years
i was a stuntman and i did the terminator 2 show
and in that show there are drones that chase
you know the robots and and then here we are
now it's crazy but so With you having been boots
on ground in a lot of these conflicts that we've
seen recently as a soldier, what is the future
of warfare? Because as you alluded to, some of
these drone strikes are horrendous to watch when
they've got some of the video attached to them.
We see the same thing in Gaza, for example, especially
when it's not even combatants that are being
targeted. What is the future going to hold? Are
we going to ultimately have drone versus drone
from country? Let me put it a different way.
Optimistically, what do you hope it will look
like? And then pessimistically, where is the
bad side of where this could go? I mean, to answer
your first bit of the question, I think it's
not a sexy answer, but essentially the future
of warfare is data. Who can get the most accurate
data in the right format, in the right time to
make decisions? potentially autonomously to know
what the best thing to do is on a battlefield
or in the airspace around the things that you
care about that you're seeking to protect. It's
going to be about the ability for us to share
data securely, safely and quickly at the right
time in the right place to make the right decisions.
I mean, we're already seeing sort of not necessarily
drone on drone, but unmanned on unmanned. And
that's going to be a growing feature of both
air forces. navy fleets you know you name it
we are going to be moving away rapidly i would
suggest from large totemic aircraft carriers
and carrier groups to a lot more speedier smaller
literal vessels that don't require you know years
of development and billions and billions of dollars
worth of of design etc that could be taken out
with a single missile that can go you know supersonic
from many thousands of miles away and your entire
platform on which you are relying to launch your
other things from become completely obsolete.
So I think the non -sexy answer is that it's
going to be all about data. And when I talk a
lot to the media at the moment about the European
threat, obviously people are looking east and
very worried about what the threat is going to
evolve to become closer to home. Clearly, Ukraine
is suffering daily from an onslaught of drones
and other things. Those countries I'm seeing
the further west you get, the sort of more, not
necessarily lackadaisical, but it's a less urgent
threat than perhaps people realize could be impacting
us tomorrow if we were unlucky. And while there's
a focus on a concept you may have heard called
the European drone wall, which is a nice idea
and it should absolutely be part of the solution
where you've got a not necessarily impenetrable
wall, but a wall of detection that is looking
east and is able to see the threats well before
they get to your actual border. That's great.
But what if the threat is already behind you?
We saw back in the summer with an operation that
was widely publicized called Spider's Web, where
the Ukrainians were already thousands of kilometers
inside Russia when they launched their attack.
So if we'd been on the border just looking for
the threats, it's already behind us. So for me
and what we've done in Australia and what we're
trying to do in other countries as well across
the globe with our customers is to start to create
networks of capability. cost effectively, affordably
and scalable that allow entire nations to connect
their different data points together so that
what might be happening in northern Norway that
may be undetected or it may be happening but
we can't share the data at the moment, we should
be able to connect absolutely not just even within
Norway but across all the other Eastern European
countries that border Eastern Europe to say is
that kind of probing activity in the north or
in Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania the same thing
that we're seeing in Poland. or in Ukraine or
elsewhere, and then be able to connect the different
types of threats that may be coming from the
same adversary that we need to really understand
quickly, because it won't take long before some
of that activity will export to everywhere else.
Getting away from drones now and kind of heading
towards what we're going to be talking about
for the bulk of this conversation, from a human
perspective. I'm literally reading 1984 at the
moment, which was written in the 1950s. And I
swear to God, Orwell could be sitting here today
writing his book based on what's going on at
the moment. To the point where he even alludes
to the fact that apart from some, in theory,
special operations teams supposedly doing things,
that the war is pretty much being fought autonomously.
And, you know, the goal is to basically affect
resources and keep the populace to a certain
level of obedience so that they don't question
the powers that be. So anyway, you know, wherever
you are, whatever you lean politically, there's
a lot of truth in that. How, with so many lessons
in history... A, do we not learn our lesson?
And B, how do we turn this around so that humanity
is not constantly at war with each other? I know
we're talking this super macro conversation,
but ultimately we were all little children that
ran around chasing a ball once. We were all blank
canvases at one point. Yeah, who didn't see color,
who didn't see religion, who didn't see any of
those things that we learn over time. I mean,
I've been in so many situations where... I grew
up not in a religious household, but I was a
singer in a cathedral choir. So you're just immersed
in religion from an early age because you were
singing in a choir and it was in a big cathedral
and everything else. I'm now, I wouldn't say
I'm religious at all. I'm more spiritual and
religious because I've seen so many unpleasant
scenarios around the world that I've helped try
and solve or be part of the cleanup or maybe
some would say been part of the problem. that
has been for many religious based or religion
based um and i find it frustrating that for me
it's all about respect that i think the challenge
is that we and maybe the digital world is not
helping here that it's very easy to say something
unpleasant or be disrespectful and rude or just
downright mean because you don't ever have to
confront that person in real life i know i don't
think the world was necessarily a kind of place
in the past but it certainly doesn't feel like
it's going in the right direction for us to be
more tolerant or respectful of other people's
views. You know, there are some things that I
wouldn't necessarily want to have rammed down
my throat day to day in the country or the places
that I live. But I'm absolutely respectful that
everyone has a right, unless they're doing something
illegal or dangerous that will harm others, that
people should have the right to be able to express
how they want to. And I think my biggest worry
is that we as a global society are very quick
to pick sides and whoever is not on your side
becomes the enemy. And that's very, very dangerous,
I think, not just politically, but even for communities.
And it won't lead to us being more sort of cohesive
as a group. And that's partly, you know, with
the book that I talk a lot about the community
aspects and people finding their tribe. It doesn't
matter what your tribe is, but it's really important.
We as humans, our DNA is to be part of a group,
whatever the group might be. And so for people
to feel alone, isolated, attacked and targeted
is not... It's clearly damaging for individuals
and for groups that feel oppressed. So, you know,
we just, maybe it's a slightly simplistic, naive
view, but I just wish people could accept that
others have different views and just live and
let live. I've said this on here many, many times.
You know, I'm exactly like you. Grew up in the
Church of England, went to a C of E school, was
a choir boy for a heartbeat, not to the level
that you were. And so I was exposed to Christianity.
And kind of like yourself, I, as a very young
boy, took a step back and went, well, yeah, but
these are kind of obvious, you know, things that
were being taught. And so when I, you know, had
friends that were then Sikh and, you know, Muslim
and all these other cultures, again, like I'm
seeing, I'm hanging around, hopefully, with people
I perceive as nice people. So we have the same
tenets. We have the same philosophies. And I
think that this ancient wisdom, whether it's
in a religious perspective or whether it's, you
know, Greek or Roman or whatever it is. Ultimately,
you could sum it up and don't be a dick. That's
pretty much what they're all telling us. So to
then split hairs about what your religion says
and there's a lake of fire or this many virgins
or whatever the thing is, I think now you're
missing the common denominator, which is the
love and empathy and community and kindness and
service, the things a lot of us in uniform embody
at our core. This is what I'm seeing is if we
can just refine that true north that a lot of
these holy texts do talk about. I would argue
that the Bible, for example, in my very white
belt perspective, the Old Testament is like a
cautionary tale, like an eye for an eye doesn't
work. The New Testament is love, kindness, turn
the other cheek. We tried the war thing. It was
shit. So try the other thing instead. So I wish
that we could just see the universal messages
of humanity rather than this kind of, you know,
pigeonholing of religious doctrine. And if you
don't believe exactly what I believe, then as
you said, you're my enemy. Yeah, I mean, one
of my favorite videos in the world ever, and
I'm sure you've seen it, is the kids that they
put together, whether it's a... a black child
with an Asian child or a disabled child with,
you know, whatever it may be, and said, like,
what makes you different? And they're literally
pointing out and going, he doesn't like tomatoes.
You know, they just don't think of the things
that we automatically as adults go, well, that
child's disabled or that child's a different
ethnicity. It's like, yeah, you know, his mum
lives on the top of the hill and we live in town.
It's a very different way of approaching the
world, which I kind of wish we could all go back
to. Well, I literally made a post the other day
because I realized that our generation... Are
you still Gen X? Are you within that parameter?
I don't know what I am. What's Gen X? When were
you born? Maybe that puts me in a Gen. I don't
know what my Gen is. When were you born? What
year? 73. 83? 73. 73. Okay. So we're the same
because you just look a lot younger than me.
So that's why I was thinking you were younger.
So we are... The Gen X, technically. But I mean,
regardless, I was reflecting on the way that
we were raised in England. We had John Craven's
news round. So we were told about what was happening
around the world in a non -political way through
a child's lens. We had Blue Peter, where we were
constantly encouraged to do jumble sales and
all kinds of things to raise money for starvation
in Ethiopia. And the people that are affected
in Rwanda. And so you have this community and
kindness and compassion. Now in America, they
had Mr. Rogers. They had Bob Ross. So again,
our generation was raised with kindness, comic
relief, live aid. It was infused in our upbringing.
And so shame on us for having so much. Kids don't
have that these days. It's very divisive and
very narcissistic and a lot of stuff. We had
this message of kindness and compassion. in our
children's television and now you have people
of our age that are acting you know the way they
are in some areas so i was pointing this out
if our generation can't be kind and compassionate
to each other with the upbringing and the examples
that we had what chance do the younger generations
have yeah and i think when they see certainly
you know without making a political statement
but when they see politicians say and do things
that are just just not great on any level just
not okay to say, regardless of your status or
role, after the death of somebody or whatever,
it's just, if there are no boundaries, then where
are people going to learn what right looks like?
If your loyalty is towards a human being and
the political party versus the wellbeing of your
country, then you have a problem. I think it's
that simple. And this is what we see here. Like
the die on your sword for a certain left or right
leaning versus taking a step back and going,
well, have either of these two groups actually
made our country healthier, happier, safer? Then
I think that's the question we have to ask. And
if fundamentally you can look in the mirror and
say, oh, yeah, this person is the second coming
of Christ, good on you. Carry on believing. If
they're not a good person, then maybe, maybe,
just maybe we need to question the way we even
choose these people in the first place. all right
well then you and i did the interview and then
two years ago i went on 7x so i went around the
world with a bunch of navy seals and delta guys
and elite triathletes and they did they because
i was support staff um seven marathons ideally
seven skydives and base jumps and then an immersion
on seven continents in seven days and it was
supposed to be a kind of observational Study
on how do you prepare for someone for something
that would somewhat mirror a military deployment
or military op, you know, a wildland fire, etc.
Beat them down during this process. And then
how can we kind of rehab them after creation
of a manual, which, by the way, the manual and
documentary, we just had a premiere last week.
I think it was just over a week ago. So those
will be coming finally after two years. Anyway,
so we land in London. go to Hyde Park, which
is where the runners were, and that's where you
and I met. So just kind of as a side note, talk
to me about your perspective of that experience.
I mean, I obviously didn't have much to do with
it other than I wanted to support if I could
and be there to see the team. I don't know what
stop that would have been, how far into it was
the UK leg. We had, oh my goodness, I think we
had Columbia then Dallas. So it was day five.
I was so freaking tired by that point. I mean,
yeah, given that you were all doing so much,
running and all the other stupid things, I ended
up, I wouldn't say accidentally, but I did a
half marathon with the team just because I felt
like I should do something. So I wasn't completely
lazy and idle. But it was a really good atmosphere.
And the team there, I mean, I caught up with
people I'd not seen for a very, very long time,
which was great. And you had the bomb disposal
person, was it Katie? Katie, yeah, Katie Hernandez,
yeah. We did her mile in the bomb disposal suit,
which I helped support. So, you know, it was
a great community. And like I said, I played
no real part in it other than wanting to be a
supporter and bringing a charity along that you
very kindly supported in the form of Royal British
Veterans Enterprise, as it now is called. So
speaking of that, what made them change? So they
were RBLI. Now, as you mentioned, they're RBVE.
What was the reason for the change? There was...
Quite a lot of confusion in the charity sector,
I'm sure you're very aware, is quite congested.
And in the UK, it's no different from other parts
of the world. And there is another charity with
a similar name, who is also a similar age, set
up just after the First World War. And that was
causing unnecessary friction and confusion for
all sorts of reasons. And the role of the charity
had kind of not moved on, but they really...
have developed a very kind of enterprising way
of working where unlike a lot of charities that
just um i'll not say just but a lot of charities
that um give money and support to the beneficiaries
uh in the form of grants or courses or whatever
um rbv does that as well but it also has a really
clever um add -on to the charity which is a um
technically for profit but it's a it's a it's
a manufacturing facility that makes things um
everything from road signs from freeways and
railways and they they just make make stuff and
it's all staffed by by veterans and what makes
it different though is that if you were a veteran
who might be struggling and you want to get back
into work to find your tribe and you know but
you don't feel like you're yet able to do a full
40 -hour week or whatever it may be They have
the ability, because it's not trying to just
make profit for profit's sake, that they will
allow young James Gearing, who's coming out of
a dark period where he's got maybe PTSD or he
became homeless because of a family breakdown
or something happened. But you want to just start
being part of something. They have the ability
to say, James, don't worry. You can do two hours
a week until you feel able to go up. No, you
would not get that in any other place if you
want to be employed. That's just one example
of this sort of enterprising nature of the way
that they think about the solutions and helping
people in novel ways to get back on track so
that they can then thrive and grow. So it just
felt like it was the right time. And we've got
a brilliant logo, amazing artist who gave us
the Tommy. silhouette that you've seen so we
kept the tommy and the colors and an rbve launched
at the house of lords uh in london um a month
or so ago and uh and this is the start of the
next phase of the journey so i'm excited to continue
being an ambassador for them and supporting them
um and a third of well quite a lot of the proceeds
of the book are going to be going to to that
charity i've still got my tommy that you guys
gave me on my bookshelf behind me but it was
funny i just had a annual kind of hearing checkup
um and there was actually a tommy sticker on
the perspex here in ocala florida now i don't
know where it came from but it was it was your
tommy so it was it was funny just caught my other
day we've gone global excellent yep all right
well then speaking of that so you and i you know
we're in hyde park um since then obviously you
told me that you were developing the book let's
talk about mindful soldier Where did the idea
even come from? And then talk to me about your
journey writing with your partner, Jessica Miller.
So I should say I'm an accidental or a reluctant
author. I didn't mean to write a book. I genuinely
had no plans to ever write a book. It's just
not really what I thought about doing. And the
idea about writing about anything personal seemed
a bit indulgent. And I didn't know quite why
it would be. It just didn't feel right, honestly.
But I had enough friends who... bullied me into
saying that you've got so many random and arguably
quite extreme examples of how you've come through
various challenges in life and demonstrated resilience
and grit and all those things. I've been lucky
to have been in a number of elite teams, whether
in sporting, competing internationally or in
other walks of life. And they said, if you could
just capture some of those things that have helped
you get through those challenging, extreme experiences.
we think collectively that this would be of value
to other people. And because I am really driven
by, particularly since I retired from military
active duty service, about trying to give back,
not just to the military community, but to anybody
that might be struggling. And I'm always a big
proponent of making sure we don't forget the
emergency services community, you know, particularly
in America, but globally, I think military veterans
are put on a pedestal and some of that is obviously
welcome. Relevant and right to do, but I always
try to make the point that many military people,
a vast majority of military veterans have never
seen combat, would never need to be in combat,
and therefore are less likely to have been exposed
to trauma. Whereas a young female paramedic,
in the first month of her job after finishing
training, she might be cutting babies out of
cars on the freeway and attending house fires.
There may be more trauma in a month than a fire
service. paramedic or whoever firefighter may
experience. So I wanted to make sure that we,
anybody that serves is supported. So that's kind
of what, what drives me generally. So I happened
to be between jobs. I was lucky enough to get
a bit of time where I was still getting paid
while I moved from one company to another back
in, I guess, 2021, it was sort of during COVID
2020, 2021. And that was the time that I thought
if I'm going to do it. this is the window. I
probably wouldn't take six months out of my life
to do this unless I didn't have something else
that I was doing. So that was kind of my window,
which was the first problem because there was
so much self -induced pressure. I knew that my
new job was starting on this date. And therefore
I stupidly quite early on, maybe sensibly, maybe
stupidly worked out that if I was going to get
80 ,000 words, which I thought was what I should
be targeting. maximum, that I would need to write
X thousand words a day. And there were some days
where I just couldn't string two sentences together.
It was just like, I hate this. I really hate
this. So I didn't enjoy the process, if I'm brutally
honest, and I didn't do it as I'm led to believe
you're supposed to do. You're supposed to find
yourself an agent, then you do a pitch and you
maybe write a couple of chapters. I mean, you're
an author, you know how it's supposed to be done
properly. I've never done this before. So I just
sort of made it up as I went along, just dumped
all my things on a page. tried to work out some
themes. Then I found myself an agent and said
like, here's kind of a book maybe. And the first
agent thought it was great, said don't change
anything, but then we didn't get any deals. So
ended up switching up and going to a different
agent, had a bit more advice about how to package
stuff. And we worked out there's probably about
two books worth of content in there. And if we
wanted it to be a useful book and not be seen
as a memoir kind of thing, which I just wasn't
cool with, then actually getting some... sort
of proper academic, well, not necessarily academic,
but some scientific rigor around what actually
is going on in the brain, it might be more useful
to more people, because I wanted this to be broadly
applicable, not just to the veterans or military
minded people that want to hear some sort of
war stories of running around getting shot. So
I managed to get Jess to agree to support the
project. And she's a world renowned neuropsychologist
with a focus primarily in her career on policing
trauma. So she knows emergency services really,
really well and is written extensively on these
topics. And so what we ended up doing is that
I take of the 12 chapters, they're kind of quite
12 distinct themes, whether it's childhood trauma,
relationship breakdowns, getting out of your
comfort zone, the fear of failure. loss basically
you know relationship loss or loss of a loved
one um power of community and a bunch of other
things in between um and then she takes my ramblings
and then then sort of says right this is what's
actually going on in the brain in in layman's
terms to say this is why that kind of thing is
hard if you've had a relationship breakdown or
you've lost somebody or you've lost your identity
or changed jobs and you're struggling this is
why it's hard because this is what the brain
is trying to do to process that experience And
then we give some practical tips and advice and
exercises on how if you are going through that
kind of thing and you're struggling to build
your resilience or get through something that
these might help you do that. So that's kind
of what happened. We found a publisher who took
it. And I know you know this, but for your audience,
then classic. I had to get. government approval
to publish just because of having served. I wanted
to do it properly and make sure that I had support
from my sort of old employer, as it were. And
then no sooner had we got the clearance to publish,
the publisher went bust. It went into administration.
It was like, you could not make this up. I just
was so frustrated. We'd already lost a year waiting
for that approval anyway. So it should have come
out January last year. It's now going to be January
26. But they went bust. And we thought we'd still
get taken forward because they were setting up
a new company the following day, which we thought,
great, although the alarm bell should have rung
because it was the same people that were basically
setting up the new company, which happens a lot,
I'm now led to believe. But they canceled the
book, it turns out, because they thought that
all of the pre -sales we'd had, and there were
many tens of thousands of dollars worth of pre
-sales, they thought that we owed that or that
they would have owed that to the charities that
I was supporting, which again should have been
an absolute... red flag like the fact that they
were willing because they thought they owed a
charity money and thought they therefore could
go bankrupt and not pay it and then move on clean
and start again but i was quite desperate at
this stage to not lose the deal because i hadn't
had um lots of offers um because basically when
i first went to the publishers it didn't really
know what it was going to be the book was still
a bit all over the place so um they agreed to
take it again and stick to the same timeline.
I thought, okay, fine, we've survived. And then
they went bust again. So it's quite a special
team to have been able to go into administration
twice in quick succession. But as it turned out,
although I freaked out at the time that it was
all going to unravel and I'd let all these people
down who'd bought books in the past and I couldn't
repay them and all that sort of stuff, that really
bothered me. We ended up... It couldn't could
not have been better. We ended up going back
to the market. And this time with a properly
finished book, that was a real thing that, you
know, I think I'm pretty proud of. There was
a bit of a bidding war happened between two much
bigger, more established, proper publishers.
And so we ended up going with a publisher called
Quercus, part of the Hachette Group and John
Murray Group. So a big international organization.
But this is a kind of a small team within a bigger
org so they can move quickly. And they were just
absolutely brilliant. And I was fairly demanding,
which those who know me wouldn't be surprised
by that. But my demands were that we stick to
the same publishing schedule because I didn't
want to lose another period of time. So it's
going to come out in January, as I said, and
that they had to honor. the original orders,
which they didn't have to do at all. But they
said, no, we can see that this is not great.
And I can see how much this bothers you. So we
will honor all of the pre -orders that were made
with the previous publisher, which was, it just
told me everything I needed to do that we'd found
the right home. And we haven't looked back. So
we are, I believe the book is literally coming
off the press tomorrow or the next day, the physical
copies. So I'll get one to you as soon as I get
my hands on one so you have one to read. And
we go live in January, 22nd of Jan in the UK
and 27th of Jan in the US and the rest of the
world. And I'm giving 100 % of the profits to
charity. So this is genuinely, although it's
my ramblings and my stories, it's not about me
and it's not for me. I'm only willing to do it
and I'm only willing to pimp it and promote it
and everything else because I want to raise as
much money as I possibly can for these charities
and help as many people as we can. Amazing. Well,
there's so many things I want to unpack. But
while we're on the topic of charities, you talked
about RBVE. What other charities are you supporting?
So the other charity, the main one we're supporting
is Gurkha Welfare Trust. So when I started my
military career, I joined a unit called the Gurkhas,
which, for those who aren't familiar, is a longstanding
tradition regiment in the British Army manned
by Gurkhas, Nepali soldiers. So all the soldiers
are from Nepal. And that's been the case in the
British Army since 1815, when in classic British
style, we were pushing north from India and came
across these troublesome hill people in Nepal
who were great fighters. And it was a bit of
a stalemate. So rather than admitting defeat,
the Brits then signed them up and they've been
serving alongside the British Army ever since.
So, you know, my heritage was in the Gurkhas.
And for those who don't know Nepal, it's a...
a hill mountainous country very very poor um
people live you know very much a hand -to -mouth
existence particularly um in the hills where
there's very few um services and that kind of
thing and the Gurkha Welfare Trust does incredible
work to not only disperse the pensions that the
soldiers and their widows and families can draw,
but they do projects to build schools and water
wells and bridges between valleys so that communities
don't have to walk for days to get to each other.
They can sort of walk across a bridge, that kind
of stuff. So it's a really amazing support network.
And given that they gave me my start in the army
and Nepal is very close to my heart and they're
just amazing people, they hopefully will benefit
from the money we raise. I can't remember if
I interviewed Nim's Dai before or after we spoke,
but I know in that conversation, I'm sure when
you and I spoke, there was that news story a
few years ago where the Gurkhas weren't getting
the pension that, you know, an equal British
person would be entitled to. Has that been resolved?
Has that improved? I mean, it was like many things
in the media. It wasn't. as as simple as it sounded
um you know the headline was that they're not
treated the same as the brits and many of them
don't get pensions the reality at the time was
that if you were a british soldier you would
need to serve 22 years to get a full pension
and many of the gurkhas would be retired after
15 years because that was just the way that it
worked if you didn't promote then you would leave
after 15. so if you've been a brit you also wouldn't
get a pension so it wasn't sort of apples for
apples. But a lot of work has been done by many
people over the years to make sure that there
is parity, the ability for families to stay and
settle in the UK after they've served 10, 15,
20 years in the British Army, making them go
back to Nepal and reapply for residency in the
UK was clearly not fair, given that we allow
others to come in with far fewer connections
to the country. So it's moving in the right direction.
There will always be people, I'm sure, who are
upset that they didn't get. what they felt they
were entitled to. But, you know, certainly the
brigade of Gurkhas and those who fight for the
rights and Gurkha Welfare Trust who fight for
the rights of soldiers and their families are
doing everything they can to make sure that we
treat them with the respect and dignity that
they deserve. Beautiful. Well, speaking of ethics,
going back to the publisher, this is something
that I hope, I hope to God when this pendulum
swings back, I think we're in a really... nasty
place as far as the division and the negativity
that's being kind of pumped at the moment. And
that's, what's beautiful about, you know, this,
this Bondi tragedy is a lot of people, unless
it's just the algorithm that I'm part of, are
focusing on the heroism, you know, and, and one
of the, that incredible man that wrestled the
gun from one of the terrorist arms was, it was
a Muslim man. Okay. So then we've, it's, again,
we're getting away from these pigeonholes. You've
got people with mental health problems that I
think that they're going to, you know, create
some jihad. And then you've got these incredible
good Samaritans of all walks of life that, you
know, some of them, it costs their life. I just
saw an older couple that tried to wrestle and
they ended up both getting killed. So, you know,
I think that when we swing back in the business
side too, I feel like where there's a lot of
value now are the social businesses, whether
they are giving a portion of proceeds to you
know, some sort of charity where I'm obviously
with what you're talking about, it's all going
to charity, but even like a business that's set
up to still make money, I think that that social
business model is going to be what we see next.
And then comparing that with, as you just alluded
to, some of the incredibly selfish nastiness
that we see in some of these corporations. So
putting your kind of business hat on, what is
the future? of business? And do you feel like
now we're starting to see some of these horrendous
practices and there will be a call for more ethical
businesses and they'll be the ones that become
successful? I would like to say yes, but I don't
believe it. I think there'll be, I believe, you
know, from what I read anyway, whichever the
gen is, and I shouldn't be better at these gens,
gen whatever, young adults now, whatever that
is. From what I read, and again, my algorithms
may present stuff that may be not fully accurate.
But what I hear is that the younger sort of young
adult generation now give a or are far willing
or do practically give far more of their salary
to good causes or to charity than ever before.
So I think I wouldn't say necessarily it's a
pendulum swing, but it seems like there is already
a sign that generationally people realize that
it's gone too far one way and it's all about
making money. you know everyone else can go hang
as long as i make my cut um and that people are
willing at least a portion of their time or money
or estate or whatever it may be to be given to
other causes or think about life outside their
own bubble their own instagram group or whatever
it may be i think in terms of business though
business is business and large corporations answer
to their shareholders and that will always be
Not necessarily the excuse, that will always
be the driver that they're trying to, you know,
increase the value of the business to be able
to reward the shareholders. And that's just how
business works. But I would like to think that
there is a space where we can all support those
that are doing stuff in a different way that
might cost us a bit more or it may not be as
good a business to do. But if it's doing the
right thing, that's valuable in itself. And I
certainly would love to be able to do. um more
in that space i think the challenge though is
that we as humans are inherently lazy you know
i don't want to pick a pick a an online retailer
but i hate the fact that i go to a particular
online retailer all the time because stuff arrives
when i need it the next day or even the same
day sometimes i would love to walk down the local
street and find a bookshop or a you know whatever
it might be that sells those things in a similar
price point and support local business but they
just don't exist Now, and that's part of the
problem, right? We are so used to having stuff
immediately when we need it, whether it's instant
gratification online with likes or clicks or
whatever, or to when we receive goods and, you
know, without much thought potentially about
how it's got there or who might be abused on
the way for it to get to me, the conditions of
the people having to work to make sure it gets
delivered by 10pm or the next morning or whatever.
So, and a bit of a long -winded answer, but I'd
love to say yes, but I think... Business is business,
but I hope that there is at least an increasing
appreciation of those businesses that are trying
to do things differently, whether it's for the
environment or for other causes that might actually
make a bigger difference. A conversation I've
been having recently, and this ties in with the
book as well, that I kind of had a realization.
It was actually, I always give credit, there
was a guy called Said Guru on the Joe Rogan show,
and they were just talking, I forget even what
the conversation was. But he was talking about
that all people are inherently good, I think
was his point. And he was like, yeah, apart from
the heads of, I forget what he said, tobacco
companies or something. And he goes, well, them
too. And then they just moved on with the conversation.
But it really stuck with me because I was like,
I've never thought about that. When we talk about
mental health, you and I, you're normally thinking
about the men and women, either side of you,
the same with me. We're never talking about the
people at the top of the pyramid in our organizations.
But if you can sleep at night knowing that your
tobacco products kill 8 million people annually
around the planet, or that your opioid created
the opioid crisis that we have in America that's
killed millions of people to date, or your weapons
that your lobbyists are trying to help create
more conflicts so you can make a lot of money
selling those, and you sleep well at night, we
have a mental health problem at the top political,
CEO, etc. element as well that we are not discussing
because it should bother you if your products
cost people's lives they will do it you know
they'll hold their nose and do it either they
either they genuinely believe in what they're
doing and they don't really care about the impact
or they will be justifying it to themselves i
would imagine that i can hold my nose for two
years three years five years the package that
i'm going to be getting is worth it and then
i can do something wholesome afterwards um i
mean it's hard to you can't obviously walk in
everyone's shoes. But you mentioned opioids.
I was working for a company once where we were
approached by one of the biggest offenders in
that space to see if we could help them be more
effective in terms of how they did their business.
And we looked at it and said, yeah, there's plenty
of ways they could be more effective. We don't
want them to be because this is already a crisis.
If we are the company that helps them sell more
in a faster way to more people, that's not going
to be a thing that we want to put on our headstone,
the thing that we did while we were alive. Absolutely.
Well, go into the book that I kind of want to
hit it chronologically as an overview, because
these are conversations I've had so many times
with, especially, you know, people in uniform.
Let's talk firstly, you know, in your conversation
with Jessica about our population in general.
So a lot of people that when they hit an adult
age, they're like, I want to put on a uniform,
I want to serve in the military and the first
responders, etc. What have been some of the conversations
that you've had as far as the early lives of
these men and women? Because I think that what
I've seen and what I've heard from so many people
is a lot of us do have struggles. Now, that doesn't
mean it has to be a weakness. If it's addressed
and worked through, I think it becomes resilience.
I think it becomes an asset. But if it's pushed
down, buried and forgotten about, then I think
it becomes a fracture in our foundation. Yeah,
I mean, clearly the motivations vary probably
culturally by country. There's lots of stereotypes
about why a U .S. soldier is a U .S. soldier
or why a British Army officer is a British Army
officer or who becomes a paramedic. And that's
clearly going to vary. But I think overall, and
Jess has done the research on this, so I don't
want to put words in her mouth or speak for her,
but essentially from my understanding is that.
Many who go on to serve, as you've identified,
have struggled in some way or been exposed to
struggle or challenge in their early years. And
whether that predisposes them to be able to cope
with the kind of rigors of a role in service
where you are expected to put the needs of others
before your own. Maybe there's something in that.
I'm not sure. I certainly didn't think of this
from day one. As a young child that I wanted
to be in the army, I wasn't thinking about that
as a career. And even when I did choose to join,
I only actually meant to join for three years
as an experience to do good. And then I was going
to get a proper job. And then 20 whatever years
later, with time having flown and learning a
bunch of things, I was a pilot as well as doing
a bunch of other stuff. So they taught me to
do a lot of really interesting things in interesting
places with interesting people. But I never thought
back to at what point did I suddenly realize
that service was a thing I wanted. But then when
I was forced to think about it a little bit in
the book, when I was writing, if I think back
to those early days, just being in the choir
as you were, the fact that you weren't allowed
to go home until Christmas evening or Easter
evening or whatever, when the rest of the school
had been broken up and the school was empty of
all the other kids for a couple of weeks at the
end of term until you were allowed to go. From
that very early age, it certainly in me inculcated
that service was just something that you did.
And it didn't matter that you would rather be
at home. You had to do your services and you
had to do your thing and then you could go home
when they were done. So maybe I'm common to many
people's views of how this works or not. I don't
know. But certainly I think Jess has spoken to
me about those people, not just who have gone
into uniform, but those who have ended up having
fairly successful careers or thrived in that
environment have often been found to be people
that might have had more turbulence or. less
stable upbringings? I think this is why it's
kind of become a realization to me now. We had,
you know, our generation, obviously, we're unpacking
this whole mental health conversation, I would
argue the last 10 years at best. But when you
reflect back now, if we have an understanding
that a lot of us have had these struggles, to
have that conversation at the front door, in
no way stigmatized, but just simply If you're
towing the line at the moment, there's a good
chance that there are some things that led you
this way. And if we can start working through
them from day one, as we are going to do physical
training, for example, then we can turn those
into an absolute asset, a strength. You're going
to be more courageous, more empathetic, all the
elements that we need in our profession. So rather
than checking a box and doing a psych test, air
quotes, you simply go, okay, well, of course,
you've probably got some stuff because you're
here. that's amazing, but you don't have to hide
it, be ashamed of it, whatever. We're going to
put it out in the middle of the room and we're
going to start talking about it and working through
it so that you can then thrive as a soldier,
as a firefighter. And your proverbial basket
is empty when you start deploying overseas or,
as you mentioned, going to these horrendous scenes
that we respond to. So I think that the next
generation of this conversation when it comes
to recruitment in uniform. is having that absolutely
at day one. There's a good, good chance that
you have. And that's great. I'm glad that you're
here. Here's your uniform. Here's your badge.
Let's start moving right from day one rather
than let's not talk about it until it really
rears its ugly head. I think there's a balance
to be struck, right? I think many people might
not be ready to talk about it or might not even
have acknowledged that there is something that
is there to be talked about. I mean, there's
things that I didn't. When I was writing the
book, so think of it as a particularly cathartic
experience. I didn't feel closure for anything.
I just was writing what I remembered. But it
came to me actually after I finished one of the
early drafts, I was chatting to a friend about
some of his early childhood trauma. And he's
had a horrific, horrific experience with death
and substance abuse and all sorts of other things
in his family. And he talked about a recurring
nightmare that he had. And it was him talking
about his nightmare on a podcast. that suddenly
out of nowhere reminded me that I had a recurring
nightmare when I was a kid. And I completely
forgot about it. I hadn't actively buried it
or just completely forgotten that I had it. And
then suddenly it became quite vivid again. So
I ended up putting it in the book and jokingly
say, I'm sure somebody would be able to unpick
that and tell me all sorts of things about my
soul, having heard the meaning of my dream, as
it were. But I think the challenge is that...
When many people do join the military as late
teens or early or uniform of any kind, police
officers or emergency services, fire or medics,
whatever, they might still be quite young mentally
and emotionally and in life and just not ready
to or know that now is the time to talk about
all this stuff in huge detail. I think absolutely
we need to find a way to make sure that there's
no stigma attached to somebody having had challenge.
um equally i don't think we want to label people
i don't think there's a big risk there that you
know it seems like every child has a label of
some kind now i mean i was always referred to
in my reports as being a naughty child and couldn't
sit still or whatever i mean that's probably
classic adhd or god knows what else but i'm glad
i didn't have a label um i was just a naughty
child because because i was the reasons why you
know one can ask my daughters ask my teachers
uh if they're still alive but um I think there's
my point. I think there's a balance to be struck
that we should make it clear that if you are
ready to talk about some of these things, then
there are mechanisms and ways to help make this
a superpower rather than a vulnerability. And
that, I think, is something that we need to do
better at. I'm happy to say that I believe in
the military now, certainly in the UK. services
on offer if somebody is struggling are far better
than they ever were. The wrapper around which
people can feel safe and able to get through
some of the experiences they've had is far better
than when I joined. I don't remember it ever
really being something that we discussed until
fairly late on in my career that people might
want to speak to somebody about some of the stuff
they'd seen. It was sort of, for me, it was all
kind of self -regulated that I just had to remind
myself that seeing a... an adult or a child with
limbs blown off or, you know, just in terrible
trauma, that those things are not normal and
try not to be desensitized to it. And every time
I saw it sort of reminding myself actively to
be shocked, to remind myself that I was still
connected and, and it would be the, the fact
that I didn't feel emotionally upset by it would
be the first trigger that I needed to go and
speak to somebody. Yeah. That's interesting.
I think first, just to your point, I agree completely.
I think that's when, when you're opening the
door, those sessions don't have to be, tell me
everything that happened to you. Just simply,
you know, you could talk about West Ham that
hour, whatever it is, but when you've normalized
it at the front door, when they are like, oh
shit, you know, I'm not sleeping well, I'm having
a nightmare. And I think then they're like, well,
it's an easy, well, I'll go see Steve or Alison
or whoever your person is, is a zero barrier
to entry then versus, you know. you haven't had
that address and now you're hurting and now you're
already on the back foot. So I think there's
a beautiful opportunity to just kind of, you
know, keep that door open when they're ready.
It doesn't have to be on day one. With the desensitization,
it's funny because this is pertinent to England.
I went home a couple of years after 7X, especially
a year after 7X, and visited my dad. He had an
knee surgery, so I was taking care of him, getting
him back to the West country. on the plane on
the runway getting ready to to taxi to the uh
to the runway excuse me on the on the tarmac
and the last passenger that walked on the plane
i saw a bunch of kind of turmoil i was looking
forward and he just basically keeled over in
the aisle it's a very long story very short unlike
you see in these news news cuttings where you
know there was a conference of cardiologists
on that day or emergency physicians there was
no one no one from emergency medicine So there
were some great, you know, good Samaritans. The
cabin crew had been trained in some of the basic
stuff. But I ended up having to kind of, you
know, run a code on this gentleman. And we worked
him in the aisle for a while. The fire brigade
got here and managed to get them to drag him
to the galley. We kept working him. Finally,
London ambulance came. And then obviously they
got the actual ALS treatment. And so, you know,
I then stepped back and was like, okay, you know,
you guys need anything else? And they were good.
went to the bathroom, washed the blood off my
hands, and then went and took a seat. And the
reason I say this is I sat there and it was kind
of like, God, why am I feeling weird? And to
your point, it's because for 14 years I dealt
with that stuff and you don't have time to think
about it. You put the stuff back in the rig,
you go back in service, and then boom, you're
off to another call. But now you don't have your
team around you. Nothing went right because a
guy keeled over in an aisle and no one had the
training and we had real problems even getting
access to the equipment. It took, you know, five
minutes for them to get permission for each little
thing that we needed. And so, you know, you just
left with this feeling of, man, that was awful.
But what I realized is that's how you're supposed
to feel when someone dies. And it was the first
time after all those years where I kind of circled
around to, oh. oh, this is the actual normal
physiological response, like you said. Now, we
can't tap into that every single time. I mean,
as you alluded to earlier, we see so much trauma
that you'd be constantly getting flooded with
adrenaline. But especially in the conversation
of once you transitioned out, it's like understanding
that you have to get yourself back to feeling
again in a way. And that's a very strange journey
to have to do because you did prior to the occupation.
But you can't operate if you're having an extreme
reaction to each of these incidents. So you can't
help but taper your response. Yeah, I mean, for
me, my emotions now, because of all the stuff
I've experienced in life, are far close to the
surface. I mean, watching a sad Instagram reel
or a movie, I feel it very, very keenly when
I see, particularly if children get hurt or just
unpleasant stuff, my emotions are very, very
close to the surface. But I don't see that. generally
in my case, and this is where I feel extremely
fortunate, that of all my military service and
trauma that I experienced, that I was able to
sort of, I wouldn't say bank in a way or process
necessarily, but it just, it didn't affect me
in the way that they were fighting to be a parent
and struggling with not being given access to
my daughter and that kind of stuff and feeling
like the system was geared against. particularly
to get access to their child if they're trying
to be good parents and stuff. That was far and
away more traumatic for me than any of my military
service. But I recognize it is all cumulative.
So everything does leave a mark. You know, like
that famous book, Body Keeps the Score. You know,
there's whatever you've experienced, whether
it's early childhood or in your teens or 20s,
there's every single thing that happens kind
of niggles away. Actually, one of the early titles
for the book, I wanted to be or thought it would
be quite clever to call it Walking Wounded. Partly
because I was technically labeled as walking
wounded when I was shot, but also to make the
point that all of us in life, regardless of what
we do, are generally walking wounded in some
way throughout our journey, whatever the journey
looks like. We're all picking up niggles here
and there, mental and physical. And we just are,
you know, just keeping going and hopefully building
resilience and skills as a result of those niggles
as you go to be stronger for the next thing and
the next thing. And I actually, you know, not
that I want to experience some of the things
that I've experienced again, but I'm grateful
that I have had some pretty extreme experiences
because if I hadn't, I don't think I'd be, I
wouldn't say stable, but be in the place that
I am, you know, and been able to do the things
that I've done. If I had had less. uh, struggle
or challenge throughout my life. And particularly
those early years, I might not have been nearly
as resilient and able to cope with the, or roll
with the punches that I then had to deal with,
particularly where I was leading other people
in a team. You know, they look to you to be able
to give them the strength and the guidance to
get out of something scary and unpleasant and
unfamiliar. Um, so I'm, I'm grateful for all
the struggles that I've had because I've learned
to appreciate the. The upside's far more, and
I feel that I am genuinely far more resilient
for having struggled and failed multiple times
at multiple things, because that's how you learn.
When I look back and hear stories from men and
women in the fire service who have... being at
that darkest point, you know, they've there with
the pistol, you know, whatever, whatever their,
their method of execution, self -execution was
going to be. And thank God, you know, a dog,
a phone call, whatever it was to stop them. And
I look back and go, well, why didn't I get to
that point? And even though when I was four,
I was in a house fire and, you know, my parents
had a horrific divorce and we had another near
death experience in Wells and all these, these
things that you could look back and go, well,
these were significant traumas. I also grew up
on a farm. My dad was a horse vet. He was healing
animals. I had real food, lots of activity, time
in nature, community. I was one of five kids.
So a lot of these elements that we know are healing
simultaneously now. When you reflect back, knowing
that there are men in your unit that also got
to that dark place that we lost. What were some
of the elements of your life thus far you think
that countered these trauma to allow you to process
them and become a strength and resilience? I
don't know. It's a great question. It's a tough
one, though, because everybody's different, right?
The brain is annoyingly unique for everybody.
It's a slightly different way that we process
everything. So I can safely say that at no point
ever in my life have I ever considered ending
my life. I've never got to that point. um and
i hope that i never would um i've had some pretty
dark points where i just couldn't see a way through
financially let's say or just with the things
that i was trying to juggle like how can i process
all of these things and still be able to function
um i've been in those places um but i yeah i've
never never sort of thought about what i would
why i would ever you know move to the ultimate
sort of um cry for help i suppose um But, you
know, you mentioned dog for me, having my dog
who sadly passed away in the summer after over
17 years. We're very, very lucky. She was amazing.
I mean, she was with me through all of the really
crappiest parts of the recent life. And I grew
up in a in a household that we had animals all
over the place all the time, whether it was hamsters
or. fish or rabbits or dogs or whatever. The
dogs that we grew up with generally were rescue
Great Danes. I mean, Great Danes are ridiculous
anyway. They're so bloody huge. And their hearts
are so small for such a large animal. So even
on a good run, you're probably looking at eight
years average for a great day. But with rescues,
we would sometimes have five years, maybe six
if we were lucky. So we kind of learnt the circle
of life quite early on. And then when I got Maya,
who was a German Shorthead Pointer, I was told
that they generally live to 12 to 14. I was like,
oh my God, this is amazing. I've never had a
dog beyond eight. This is awesome. And then,
you know, she had a few struggles in her life.
But yeah, we finally lost her in the summer,
aged 17 years, two months. But she lived with
me in Australia when I was out there trying to
be closer to my daughter. She lived with me in
the States. She never quite got over the steering
wheel being on the wrong side of the car. So
she would normally sit in the front with me.
And when I picked her up from Dulles Airport
one time, she jumped straight into what would
have been the passenger seat at home in the UK
and sort of goes, right, where are we going?
It's like, honey, unless you've learned to drive,
you're going to have to do it. um but we did
everything together you know she was absolutely
a sidekick so for me having an animal or having
some even if you're on your own um just having
somebody something there that wants you to go
and do something with them you know when you
thought i just can't get out of bed i don't know
quite what to do today i just can't face it and
then this happy creature comes up says come on
let's go for a walk this would be amazing and
then you go back yeah actually yeah life's all
right um so for me just having something and
i was very lucky as well in that time i talk
about it in the book a bit that, particularly
when I was in Australia, obviously completely
the wrong time zone for where most of my friends
were back in the UK and Europe. And there were
certain friends who weren't necessarily the closest
friends that I had on whom I was sort of expecting
to rely. They were the people who I didn't necessarily
know as well, who wouldn't take no for an answer.
If I just stopped responding to texts or wouldn't
answer calls, they just kept going until I did.
And then that was really... enlightening I suppose
for me that it wasn't necessarily the people
I expected to be there who were there and that
gave me a reason to think about how I interact
with others that I don't have you know you don't
have to know somebody super well and in fact
in some cases it may be better if you don't know
somebody super well that you can provide that
emotional support or just the ear to hear how
they might be struggling or getting through something
challenging. Particularly when, if they don't
come from a world like ours of service and trauma,
if something tragic has happened to them in a
arguably normal life, normal job, normal sort
of existence, their friends and family may really
struggle to know what to say and how to say it.
And I had this actually very recently with somebody
who's a customer actually at work on the counter
drone side and we were working with him and then
he shared that he just lost his son. you know,
as a late teen child suddenly. And clearly appalling,
you know, to have to, you know, have your kids
pre -decease you. And so I shared a copy of the
book and just said, like, I'm here to listen.
And seemingly that was sort of all that was needed
to give him something to, you know, and he opened
up. And now, you know, we've got a very different
relationship because he was willing to be vulnerable
and I was willing to listen. And I've experienced
this myself, you know, with a lot of friends
and family or friends or any colleagues who've
um been involved in trauma or loss and there
is a sort of what do i say i don't want to say
something wrong so i won't say anything but actually
it's just saying something and just knowing that
somebody is there to listen and and gets it maybe
all that you need so i'm trying to do better
and try and make sure that i've got more time
for people that don't necessarily count as close
friends but if i can help or the book can help
people then that'd be amazing Well, speaking
of dogs, I had a German Shepherd, Nini, who,
again, was there right at the beginning of my
divorce all the way through till I think we lost
her three years ago now. And she was everything,
100%. And I was very fortunate. My mom had had
German Shepherds since I was little, and she
always kind of overlapped. So when one got kind
of middle -aged, she got another one because
I thought they lived longer. But actually, they
only lived for about 10 years, and that's when
I lost mine. The downside, obviously, of having
such an incredible companion is when you do finally
lose them. So how did you deal with the grief
of, you know, of an incredible companion that
you leaned on so much, you know, the last 17
years? Well, like I said, we grew up with learning
the circle of life pretty rapidly. We lost hamsters
probably every 10 minutes. It's just we got through
a lot of animals for all sorts of reasons. I
just got really out of the habit. So, you know,
I think the thing that helped me was just reminding
myself constantly how lucky we were to have had
so much time. Every day, every month extra was
a blessing really from what I was told. You could
expect 12 to 14 years. I mean, she had, how old
would she have been? Just after I arrived in
America in 2016, 2017, maybe with her. She had
a cancerous tumor that was identified, which
caused all sorts of dramas with the insurance
company. I had to prove that I didn't know about
it before I took the policy out because it literally
happened a couple of weeks after we arrived.
I got the gold -plated insurance because I was
terrified about the cost of... medical care in
america and i thought oh god she was always hurting
herself running around like a lunatic ripping
stuff open and tearing her ears and god knows
what and so um when this uh cancerous tumor was
found i was like oh my god i can't i can't cope
so i got the gold -plated insurance that probably
included manicures and pedicures and massage
and god knows what anyway um so she'd gone through
a few things and during covid we thought we might
lose at one point she had a they call it a vestibular
accident, which is basically a blood flow issue
between the brain and the balance. And she kept
falling over and just wasn't very well. But she
got through that and she sort of had lots of
things once and then just kept going. So as tragic
as it was to finally lose her, I think I just
had to be, just as I remind myself that how lucky
we were to have had so much time and she was
such an amazing, amazing dog. that it was just
a blessing um she's actually she's in a tube
in my office on the shelf so she's still with
us uh as we speak um but the hardest thing was
that when they finally worked out why she wasn't
getting better she had this stupid habit of jumping
off the last few steps on the stairs and that
was fine if it was a grippy floor but um one
time she did it you know a couple months before
she died and her legs just went you know out
sideways and just she must have ripped something
i don't know something horrible happened and
she didn't really ever recover she suddenly looked
old when she wasn't bouncing around like a puppy
like everyone thought she was uh and then she
just had upset stomach constantly and eventually
we took her to the vet and said like she's not
getting better we've given her put her a muzzle
on her so she can't eat anything horrible on
walks so it can't be that and they basically
did a scan and said oh my god the reason she's
off her food is because there's so much cancer
around her um in her stomach cavity that there's
no room so she's not eating because it must be
so painful for her to eat so uh made the decision
pretty much not there and then but you know within
an hour And then they said, you know, bring her
in tomorrow morning at, I think it was 11 .40
was the first appointment. That was the hardest
bit. That was really, really tough. Knowing that
we had this clock ticking and that this would
be her last walk, her last this, her last meal,
you know, so that was tough. But she had a really
good, well, one of her best sort of peaceful
final nights because she's had some pretty unpleasant,
you know, nights of being quite ill. So it happened
as best as it possibly could have given the circumstances.
Very lucky and just trying to identify now the
new baby mama of whoever comes next and hopefully
have a dog who's going to be equally loving and
kind and want to go running and do all the fun
things that I used to enjoy doing as a little
gang. Beautiful. Yeah, I kenneled mine. She actually
passed away in the kennel, but she was acting
a little off, but nothing that was too alarming.
But my wife was in med school down in Miami,
so 300 miles away. So I would kennel her for
the weekend, go visit my wife every other week
and then come back. And the way that she looked
at me retrospectively, I think she knew. And
my puppy was with her as well. So she wasn't
alone. The kennel people are amazing. But I've
had that seared in my mind, the way that she
looked back at me that last time. I'd probably
get choked up even talking about it now. But
like you said, though, all those years. All that
companionship, all that unconditional love. I
mean, that's what you got to reflect on. And
she's sitting on the table in my living room.
So she's still with us too. All right. Well,
another area that you do a good job kind of,
you know, I think traversing in the book. And
by the way, I love the fact that you did this
because, you know, you have that whole, you know,
quiet, silent professional element in a lot of
your professions. There's so much value in story.
And obviously, there's a difference between storytelling
and narcissism. And I killed all these people
single -handedly like Rambo. But I think our
professions can do a lot of good in the world
if you couple some stories from your experience
and give the average person a view through your
eyes, but then layer it with takeaways. That's
what I did with my first book. And I think you've
done such a good job here. But in our professions
and also outside our professions, I realized
that... A lot of times we talk about mental health
challenges and we do this because you're hurting
and need to heal you. But there's such a chasm
between that and where I'm sure the teams that
you work with have the psychologists helping
as well, which is high level performance. In
my profession, we're still stuck at, well, these
firefighters keep dying or taking their own lives
or overdosing or drowning in alcohol. How do
we stop that happening? On the other side of
that is high -level performance. How can you
traverse 20 floors in the Grenfell Tower and
then have the clear mind and get into a flow
state to try and do a primary search as everything's
burning around you? So talk to me about that.
We have these conversations about mental health,
but I think that same exact conversation factors
into the mental high performance. Yeah, I mean,
my experiences were... I suppose, of their generation.
You know, I'm not a youngster. And at the time
where I was doing many of these things, whether
it was international sports or, which clearly
is very, very psychological now in terms of,
you know, every major sports team or international
team would have a team of psychologists that
are helping people think about how to process
what's going on around them to continue to be
in their flow state, performing at the very top
all the way through the game or the race or whatever.
None of that was there. in any of the periods
that i was doing this stuff it was always kind
of um we were making enough as we went along
really um and that's not saying that's that's
good um so i'm glad to know that there are better
um facilities and services available to people
to to think about things that might help them
to be more uh high performing in the moment but
also to think about how they would process those
activities or actions after the fact that just
wasn't a thing for us so I never honestly genuinely
thought about it as a well mental health wasn't
a term then either you know it was probably too
far the other way I was just sort of get on with
it clearly if somebody was really struggling
then you know we had a duty of care to make sure
that we tried to get them to speak to somebody
but there weren't very many I wouldn't have known
necessarily where to go to get them the help
that they might need. And if you get that wrong
first touch with the system to help somebody
who might be struggling in whichever way, then
that could be the only thing they need to turn
them off to the whole process about ever talking
about it again, which could be the start of the
spiral. So I'm not well, you know, best informed
to be able to say how it's done today across.
the military or fire service or or police but
don't think that the fire service is still decades
behind you know where even if we are slightly
ahead as a military collectively globally we're
not as far ahead as perhaps you might think um
and it's often the people that you would never
expect who are the ones that that aren't able
to cope and that's that's the thing that's so
frustrating is that it's so hard to predict and
identify who the people might be that that might
actually be the ones who could go to the point
of ending their own lives or die by suicide because
they can't cope or don't feel that there's any
point in continuing. It's not necessarily the
people that you would associate visually or from
even what they say. And that's the biggest challenge,
which is why having professionals who know what
to look for is so critical. When I think back
to the high -performing stuff, I talk about it
in the book, you might remember when I went to
the World Championships and I had no training
and no preparation because I didn't get the letter
that selected me for the Great Britain team,
which was ridiculous because the army lost the
letter. And I turned up at the World Championships
on the start line and I've never been as relaxed
in my life for a race, the biggest race of my
life. And I was so chilled because I thought,
I haven't had breakfast, I was drinking last
night because it was a... thing that i needed
to go to i've had no sleep i've done no training
what could possibly go wrong and i and i had
the rest of my life because i'd given myself
an excuse not to not to put the pressure on that
i would normally have put on myself to perform
even though i you know never had any real training
uh in that sport i just sort of you know just
seeing if i could do it and randomly found myself
on the start line of the world championships
which is a bit stupid um so i think Again, it
goes back to the brain being different. I think
it's hard to put a one size fits all, but I'm
glad to know that for those who are in professions
where the chronic level of stress or requirement
to make the right decision every time, because
you don't get a second chance in the heat of
a fire or a shooting or a gun battle or a sporting
race, that there are mechanisms in place to make
sure that we understand at least that thinking
about and supporting people in processing the
kind of activities that they're about to embark
on and train them. as much as you can to be ready
to be able to cope with them is now a thing because
it certainly wasn't when I was a youngster. Well,
I think what's beautiful about it is it's a two
-pronged conversation. So if you, especially
when you have the guys that still buy into the,
you know, the mental health side is weakness
and all that kind of thing, which I think is
getting less and less as we progress through
now. But if you focus on the high performance
side, the tools are pretty much the same. You
know, I had a baseball player on Logan. Gelbrich
a few years ago, and he was talking about a flow
state moment that he had in a game. And he's
also a kind of sports scientist as well. And
he was saying, you need three things to get into
a flow state. You need, you know, the, the number
of reps, the repetition. So you're actually a
good at that skill. You need a high stress environment,
which for him was a baseball game for us is obviously
what we did. And then you said you need a calm
mind and that's, that's the ding, ding, ding,
ding, ding. So. If you are looking at being in
a flow state or trying to chase at least the
flow state in a gun battle, in a firefight, in
a building, then a lot of the modalities are
the same. If you are doing meditation, if you
are... speaking to a counselor if that's something
that you need to do if you are doing you know
breath work or ice baths or whatever these things
are that that you're using as a tool you can
forge performance but the beautiful unspoken
side effect is also you're positively affecting
your mental health so i think that you know that
the fact that these you can positively move the
needle on both of these adds a lot more weight
to not the arguments the wrong word but it it
opens people's eyes and destigmatizes this to
you know you're broken we've got to help you
fix and takes it into no no we want you to be
a better soldier a better firefighter and i think
the fact that you can message it that way and
have the side effects that are positively affecting
the mental health is maybe the future conversation
of this whole thing well one of the the sponsors
or patrons of the book actually is a is an organization
called peak state mental fitness For them, which
I buy into completely, they talk a lot about
flow state in their work, but it's about the
brain is a muscle or think of it as a muscle
like any other muscle. You have to train it and
exercise it and test it and repeat, rinse, repeat.
And so thinking about being mentally fit rather
than mental health per se, I think for certainly
high performers is the way that I like to think
about it, that we can train ourselves with exercises
or exposure to the kinds of things that we're
going to need to get comfortable in. And for
me, generally, given that we always used to joke
in the military that no plan survives contact
with the enemy, you can have the best plan in
the world. And as Mike Tyson used to say, everyone
has a plan until you're punched in the face.
So accepting that upfront in any situation you
go into that, yes, plan and train ready for the
event, but also be equally ready that when things
don't go to plan, you've also thought about some
of the contingencies that are most likely so
that you don't go. oh my God, what to do now?
Because you've thought about if in the event
of this happening, and we used to do it all the
time, you know, in the event of vehicle breakdown
or helicopter crash or whatever it might be,
number of casualties, what would we do to either
continue to achieve the mission or save the lives
of those that might be impacted? And the same
in a race or anything else. I think for me, that
fitness piece is key. And you talk about calm
mind, I mean, maybe for the wrong reasons, but
on that start line of that world championships
was I could not have been calmer because it was
so alien to me. And I just thought the whole
thing was so ridiculous. that there was no point
being stressed because i hadn't i there was no
more control there was no control to be had it
was just enjoy it you know be proud that you're
wearing your nation's colors and i just basically
hung on the back of this this guy another brit
who i think ended up getting a silver medal um
on that first 10 kilometer run i just tried to
hang on to him you know for that 10 kilometers
it was far faster than i was ever able or willing
to go i got a personal best on the run alone
i just thought i just got to keep going until
i either die or or someone tells me to stop and
uh and it worked out well going back to our earlier
conversation i mean i think the perfect example
of the detrimental element of a busy overworked
uh you know tired mind is what we saw in covid
and i mean actually the the conversation it was
you know two world war one trenches you read
the pro vaccines masks or you were anti everything
it was chinese conspiracy and it was almost an
inability to stand in the middle and go well
wait a second this is definitely obviously a
real thing wherever it came from it's a real
virus but the health of the individual seems
to dictate your ability to overcome this or not
so why don't we just talk about making everyone
healthier let's get them outside let's get them
exercising let's get them you know being around
people even if you can you know, do it outside
because you don't want to fracture relationships.
We know that's detrimental to the human health
as well. But there was an inability to critically
think. And whether it's at a macro level during
a pandemic or whether it's a micro level during
a firefight or looking for a child in a burning
building, it still alludes to the fact that if
you can work on yourself. and and do whatever
it takes to to get that mind calmer and clearer
not only will you operate at a high level but
even just you know in these national conversations
you'll be able to stand in the middle again and
critically think and go does that make sense
is that kind is that benefiting the people of
my nation i see yeah yeah and that's what i thought
about the mask stuff but i didn't always wear
masks but i did when i was in situations where
we were in confined spaces or an thought it was
going to stop me getting sick or not if it was
going to likely potentially protect others because
i might have come into contact with somebody
i didn't know had the disease there might be
an elderly person on the tube then i felt it
was my duty to do anything that i could that
might reduce the risk it may not ameliorate the
risk entirely and i remember that when this debate
became so you know aggressive didn't it between
all the different sides and there was one that
that i did like a cartoon once trying to explain
to people who were refusing to accept that masks
could do anything. And it had different cartoons
of people peeing on each other. And it had, you
know, somebody had a mask, then the pee went
back on themselves. It didn't go out to the other
person. It was just saying that it's going to
do something if it's not, you know, if you can
prevent your germs going one way or the other.
And then the other thing that amused me during
COVID was the way different countries referenced
the distance that one should keep between each
other for safety. And I think it was in Sweden.
They had signs that had a moose or an elk as
the thing that people should think about, right?
Stay one moose away from the next person. They
were saying two meters that some people go, what's
two meters look like? They're like, just stay
an elk or a moose apart from someone else. Yeah,
it was, I mean, again, reflecting back now, this
is what's sad too. I don't know if we had this
in the first conversation, but... Where I feel
there was a massive disservice is the decisions
that were made were made. And what happened happened.
And we saw, you know, there were hot spots where
absolutely this virus was creating a lot of death,
especially, again, with people with comorbidities.
And there were other sides, like I had Tom Beaver
from BeaverFit, where they built a massive morgue
in London and it was completely unused. And they
built it, which is amazing, amazing. So, but
what really pissed me off is after the fact.
After we saw the real elements, after we saw
politicians having Christmas parties while the
British are being told to stay in their homes,
there was no retroactive after action report
on, okay, what did we do well? What did we do
poorly? Do we need to look at the nation's health?
And that is where we did the massive disservice,
I think, is that we need to learn from those
events. So the next time, because it will happen.
how we react differently, how can we make the
nation healthier. And certainly here in the US,
that was a zero conversation. In fact, we're
just getting fatter and sicker. Yeah, I mean,
I think that inquiry is maybe still going on,
or maybe it concluded recently. But you know,
we're not great as a nation. And as a society,
probably globally of really learning lessons,
we are quite quick to identify lessons, but whether
we actually learn them or want to learn them,
particularly if in if we learned the lesson and
then did something about it to make sure it didn't
happen again if it's going to be too expensive
or too difficult or too disruptive then they
just don't do it um so it's always slightly depressing
when you read these reports you go some of this
stuff is so obvious why did it take three years
to agree that that was just a stupid thing to
do or not do um anyway but what what from the
from what you read in the book what are the things
that connected most with you personally what
did you find resonated or or surprised I mean,
honestly, what resonated with me was, again,
this reinforcing of a lot of things that we talked
about for several years now. And again, with
different people, different perspectives, different
stories to connect them, like community, for
example. So this is what we're going to hit next.
In our profession, you have a lot of people that,
you know. They're selflessly served. They're
proud to be, you know, in part of this unit.
You're obviously in a very elite unit. So you
have that cohesion. You have that close tribe.
You have that sense of purpose. I am doing something,
hopefully, that's going to make the world a little
bit better. But then you transition out. And
I think that's where we see a lot of our veterans,
a lot of our first responders struggling. And
so the overarching lesson, I think the community
element is everything. But talk to me about that.
We develop such a cohesive unit in a lot of these
groups. But then one day you leave, your ID doesn't
work, you're not wearing the uniform anymore,
and you find yourself in a flat. Maybe your family
unit can dissolve. So I think that's one of the
most important things for people listening, because
it doesn't matter whether you wear a uniform
or not. They've shown that not only mental health,
but physical health. The relationship side is
one of the most important things for mental and
physical longevity. And that is something that's
so fractured so acutely in the uniform professions.
Yeah, I think the I mean, the community thing
I finished, as I said in the book at the end
with the power of community, because it is so
important, I think, particularly not just for
those who've served in uniform, but for anybody,
you know, we are designed to be parts of communities
or tribes and storytell and be part of something.
And I think that's the challenge if people find
themselves in situations post -service or just
in life generally alone or isolated. Clearly,
COVID did highlight that for a lot of people,
how difficult that can be if you are actively
cut off from those interactions that may be all
you need. It may be that you just go down to
your coffee shop once a day and just the act
of saying hello and somebody asking how you are
and you just having a bit of a chit -chat while
you buy your coffee. that may be that all you
need and your community is that cafe. Or it might
be your sports team or your music group, your
band or your veteran group or your firefighter
group or a mixture of all these things. I think
the trying to find ways and for us to have ways
to include people in groups easily. so that they
feel like they are part of something. It doesn't
really matter what the thing is, honestly. I
think just feeling like you're part of something
where you have a safe place to go. For some people,
it would be a church or a synagogue or a mosque.
It doesn't really matter. But I get that people
need to feel connected. That's just how we're
wired. For me, in terms of the transition, just
to touch on that, and I think we talked about
this a little bit last time we were on together.
I think part of this process is, again, almost
training yourself to understand what is going
to happen in advance of it happening. So many
of the stories where a transition hasn't worked
very well for somebody seems to be where They've
been in the tribe, in the tribe, in the tribe,
and now they're not. And suddenly it's all new
and it's scary and it's daunting. And there isn't
that support network and the friendship group
because you've gone back because you might have
money and you've gone back to live with your
parents or something may have happened that you
find yourself suddenly in a very different circumstance.
I think if we can help people, and I know this
work is ongoing across many different professions
to try and prepare people better for. the next
phase of their life because let's face it many
of us are still very young and we've got more
time to serve in other roles in life than the
time we spent in uniform um if we're healthy
and so for me i didn't necessarily actively think
about this too much but i did consciously make
a decision that i wasn't actively transitioning
from one tribe to another because there were
plenty of things that transcended whether i was
in uniform or not um my way of thinking about
life and where I could add value commercially
or otherwise was that if I can find myself continuing
to do interesting things with interesting people
in interesting places that's the continuity and
it doesn't matter whether I'm in uniform or out
of uniform in a government job or in a commercial
job as long as I've got that balance of always
finding something that I can do with people that
I trust who are all pulling in the same direction
as a team it didn't matter if it's a big team
or a small team a startup or a big corporate
You've just got to find your groove with people
that are like -minded and in my case, service
focused or mission focused and not self -serving
narcissistic types that doing something for the
greater good. For me, that's what purpose is
all about. And as long as we can find elements
of that in the transitional phase, then I think
most people would actually find that life is
not quite as scary as perhaps they think or find
it if they haven't. thought about it in advance
about where they might end up. Just for people
listening, that's not an attack drone that's
flying around Ash's head. That's just the construction
workers a couple of floors down. Apple might
do a better job of getting rid of the drilling
that's going on. No, you're fine. What I realize
as well is when we... lean too heavily into the
identity i was a soldier i was a firefighter
you know and then you one day you're in the supermarket
and no one cares what you did you're just a bloke
in line you know with some hobnobs in your hand
um it made me realize that if you take a step
back going back to what we talked about early
life why are you driven to serve That's who you
are. That's your purpose is that you wanted to
be there when people were having a bad day. You
wanted to be there to be the protector. And some
of us found first responders, military units
to be a part of that. But that was just. the
unit, you know, the uniform that we put on for
that moment. But if you carry on that purpose,
as you have obviously with your charity work
and some of the other things that you've done,
you know, a lot of people that then transition
out and, you know, whether you're a personal
trainer or you become a physician or whatever
it is, but you carrying on that service element,
it seems to be a much less jarring transition.
But I find that the people that then transition
out and go to, as you talked about, one of those
less altruistic groups, maybe you find yourself
in finance or something. And now you're just
being told money is the most important thing.
I feel that's usually a mismatch for a lot of
people that did serve. Yeah. I mean, I remember
when I was looking at what sectors I might want
to work in and people saying, have you thought
about financial services? And I thought, well,
yeah, I could do that. You know, I feel like
I'm. I don't have any specific skills, but I've
got enough skills that I can turn my hand to
many different things. There wasn't anything
that was particularly, you know, didn't jump
out as that's the job I want. I want to be at
this or that. So I thought, yeah, financially,
I could do that. And then the more I thought
about it, it's like, that's just not me. Yes,
it'd be lovely to earn ridiculous sums of money.
And, you know, that's life changing in all sorts
of ways. But, you know, I have worked for some
companies where just the culture wasn't a good
fit. And I've been paid better there than I have
in other places. But I just couldn't stay. There
were some brilliant people and people I loved
there. But just generally, the culture was just
not quite right. And I think the other worry
that a lot of people have is that if they make
the wrong decision and join the wrong thing,
that that's it. Because many joined uniformed
service or non -uniformed service, but service
generally. And you consider it as a career quite
often. I mean, I said I didn't mean to, but it
ended up being such. There's a sort of misconception
that you can't just say, once you're in the civilian
sector, okay, well, I didn't like that. I'm going
to move on to something else. We are very free
to actually find the tribe and the vibe that
gels with us. The challenge for many people,
and I try and explain this to anybody who's asking
me for advice when they're leaving, it's like,
don't worry about getting a job. That's not the
problem. Finding one that you really feel is
valuable, that you're giving back or you're making
a difference in the way that you earn enough
to be comfortable. But, you know, for people
for whom the salary is not everything, there
are far more other motivators that actually matter
more to you with your integrity and your morals
and the way you are. That's the hard thing is
to find that tribe. And I've been actively recruiting.
folks from my team who some of whom worked with
me in the past or in and out of uniform but different
different roles and now i'm we've got to a point
where we've got an incredibly powerful core team
that i trust and it always comes down to trust
honestly where i can trust them to do the right
thing whether i'm there or not trust them to
make the right judgment calls to take opportunities
when they present themselves and do the right
thing and that in itself is so liberating um
to be bringing good people in and empowering
them. And if we can create a culture of trust
and respect, then that's all that we need as
a gang to hopefully succeed and make a difference
in the world. And I think it saddens me when
there are so many people who clearly haven't
either been able to speak to people in advance
of the transition and therefore struggled or...
don't know where to turn to get that support
network i'm actually speaking to a group tomorrow
night that a veteran reached out to me a few
months ago a few weeks ago and asked if i'd speak
to a group of people that he speaks to once a
month about about resilience so you know anything
that can help people just hear a different perspective
it may be all that's required and not related
to the book but i remember doing a speech once
somewhere and this this lady came up to me afterwards
and i talked about some of the challenges i'd
i'd experienced and got through and she said
i just wanted to say thank you and she rested
her hand on my arm said thank you for what she
goes i thought my life was shit but you really
have gone through it was like if i've brought
you some perspective then you're welcome so uh
yeah i mean i'm hoping that's what we can do
with the book is just give people ideas and and
realize that they're not on their own that we
are kind of all in it together and you know there
have been many others that have gone before them
that have been struggling equally um and there
is always a way through it may be hard to see
initially but there is always a way through um
and and if we can help people find that path
then that's great one more area before we go
to some closing questions i'll be mindful of
your time that is really under discussed again
when you're talking about high performing teams
especially but even at a detrimental level is
the moral injury of organizational betrayal so
you are a passionate firefighter. You've trained,
you've done all your education, you come in,
you're now part of the station. And the way that
it's run is not service oriented. They're not
focusing on their people. They're not creating
an environment that allows these men and women
to thrive. It's quite corrosive and toxic. And
that can be very, very jarring for a first responder.
It can be jarring for a military member if maybe
they learned that. where they were sent under
that, you know, pretense was actually falsified.
What are you seeing as far as that? Just overall,
the negative impact of a group of people that
really are there for the right reasons, if there's
poor leadership or toxic environment? Yeah, I
mean, it's really tough. One of the modules that
I teach often if I'm doing leadership seminars
and stuff is managing up. How can you try and
help if you've got the experience or you can
see what is not being done well? It may not necessarily
be deliberate or designed to hurt or be negatively
impacting people. But if you can see behaviors
or issues happening above you that you might
be able to help, then we also have a duty as
good followers to try and have a conversation
and explain to those individuals what it is that
we value from them. in leadership and those things
that might be less welcome or are not actually
helping the team achieve their thing. But that's
tough. It's a really hard space to be, particularly
if those who are in those leadership roles are
not willing to listen and be corrected or be
challenged. No, I get things wrong all the time,
but I am always open to be corrected or challenged
if there's something that I'm doing and encourage
my team to always. Talk to me if they think that
I've done something wrong or said something wrong
or could do something in a better way that could
help be more inclusive or help people get through
something in a more positive way. I think, again,
this goes back to what we discussed earlier about
what are the motivators of those leaders. And
if they are, there may be pressures that we're
not seeing and we have to therefore give them
a little bit, potentially a little bit more credit
if there are things that we're not cited to,
but try and encourage them to share what their
pressures might be. Because I think with... the
way the world's going with lots of 360 reporting
and stuff, you know, we are trying to encourage
more of a self -awareness culture, particularly
as leaders to know how we come across and what
we think we may be doing for the right reasons
may not be perceived in the same way for those
below us. But if there's clearly illegal, toxic
or deliberately untrustworthy behavior, then
that's more of a moral issue. And I think the
moral quotient is something that must be. well
understood and not tolerated by the organization
writ large. If bad behavior happens, if people
are disrespected, abused, then that must not
be tolerated. And every leader I speak to, where
they have experienced this, either as leaders
in an organization where other subordinates have
behaved like this or whether they've been part
of the issue, they all to a person said they
wish they'd acted faster because it's cancerous.
This kind of negativity and toxicity, if it is
not addressed, will... either worst case be seen
by everybody as being acceptable and that can
lose the trust of everybody of your organization
and that's clearly very damaging um or it can
just negatively impact the day -to -day and people
won't perform or won't want to do the job or
go the extra mile which we need everyone to do
absolutely i think where where i struggle is
almost moral courage it's that Doing something
because it's the right thing to do. So I'll give
you a perfect example. You're a fire chief here
locally and you work 40 hours, nine to five,
go to bed, go to home, go to bed with your own
family. And the people that actually running
the shifts are working 56 hours a week. Because
of mismanagement, now you've got vacancies. So
now you're filling these vacancies with forced
overtime. So now these men and women are working
80 hours. I struggle to understand why you don't
have the courage to advocate for those people,
to get more staff, to improve recruiting, do
the things that are actionable that you know
about, but you are okay because you're okay.
You go home at five o 'clock, so I'm good. And
it takes moral courage to say, look, just because
I'm okay, my people aren't at the moment. I'm
having these suicides. I'm having locally firefighters
arrested in this particular case. no heads are
being turned, no questions are being asked. So
I think that is so, so detrimental when people
under you are not seeing you fight for them.
Yeah, or being willing to fill in. I mean, if
there are gaps, if you as the chief aren't willing
to maybe roll your sleeves up and take a turn
on the ladder, even to do something. We used
to have a general in Iraq who would, he wanted
to understand what the stresses and strains were
of the troops in combat. So he would... routinely,
weekly, go out on missions as a junior soldier,
albeit as a star general officer, just to experience
what are the challenges and stresses and difficulties
of operating in an environment where we're constantly
being told you've got to reduce collateral damage,
no accidental death is acceptable. Him then seeing
it up close and personal about the challenges
of not being able to see because of smoke and
whatever dust or anything else. everything just
going to in chaos so he could better appreciate
the challenges we face so he could advocate to
say they did everything they could and I know
that their processes are always designed to minimize
collateral but there will occasionally in the
fog of war be incidents that that are unavoidable
because it is just really hard so I'm not saying
that fire chiefs are even allowed to go and do
do shifts but certainly if I knew that team members
were having to do double shifts or a detriment
to their families doing extra work that was starting
to break them, then I wouldn't be able to sleep
at night personally if they knew that I was doing
a 40 -hour week and getting plenty of eight -hour
REM sleep, ROM sleep, whatever else. Yeah, I
agree completely. All right, well then with that,
the first question I love to ask, is there a
book or are there books that you love to recommend?
We'll get obviously to yours when people can
find that, but are there other things that people
have written? I mean, there's so many. And I
actually have, I was asked to do a reading list
actually as part of the book process that if
people wanted a reading list from me that they
could get. It's quite long though, so I don't
know. Do you want fiction, nonfiction? What's
your thing? Whatever you want. Anything that
pops to mind. Anything I've read recently that
I loved. Well, you put me right on the spot here.
You're going to give me some warning. I'm not
going to answer very intelligently at all. I
don't want to just say things that sound clever
because I don't necessarily always read clever.
stuff that i enjoy um i do like lots of non -fiction
um stuff not necessarily memoirs but i like reading
stories of um particularly resilience i get one
that's just actually sprung to mind unbroken
i know there was a movie about this but reading
the book and i'd read i'd seen the movie and
it was like yeah and then i read the book and
it just blew me away just hearing particularly
stories of resilience and they're The amount
of time that these people had to endure the things
that they endured in the Second World War, for
example, are just beyond anything that we could
comprehend today. I think, you know, the wars
or the incidents that we fight, even the things
that firefighters and first responders go and
resolve. Generally, they don't last more than
a few hours. They might be incredibly traumatic,
not diminishing that at all. But these are months
or even years in some cases of torture and abuse
and just chronic, appalling suffering. So when
I read those kind of things, for me, they're
really good reminders and levelers that there
are many people who've gone through far more
than we have. And therefore, I sort of feel like
we owe it to them to not be too, not too precious
is the wrong word, but, you know, just respect
the fact that there are others that have served
and done far more incredibly heroic things to
give us the lives that we have now. And we sort
of therefore should try and carry that forward
for the generation after us. So Unbroken is probably
a good one to suggest. Brilliant. Yeah, I think
that's it. I mean, when we look, World War II
was only 80 years ago. So what did that generation
think about what we're doing with the freedom
that they fought for, truly fought for? We talk
about in America, fighting for freedom, but a
lot of those wars were in the Middle East. But
in Europe, the UK easily could be speaking German
now, could be under a fascist regime. two short
generations later what are we doing as far as
gratitude and community in response to all of
that selfless service and lives lost in world
war ii yeah yeah i mean great comments i think
i'll be not enough i think that we have to think
though sensibly about what actually are the communities
that we need to be supporting today because as
you said second world war 80 years ago first
world war very few left um at all from that generation
people still think when you say veterans certainly
in the uk people still think of the the chelsea
pensioners in the red coats you know um with
their medals going down um king's road in london
uh or world war ii veterans in wheelchairs with
you know the metal chests and uh and large berets
and everything else actually There's a much bigger
generation that has seen more recent trauma and
challenge that we've got to find a way of recognising
that there are those who continue to serve. But
I don't think we might mention this last time
I was on, but very keen that we don't turn this
into a negative thing where people think service
is going to cause you to break. I think we have
to recognise, certainly in the UK, where I work
with more charities than anywhere else, the percentage
of those that need care and support. is a small
percentage compared to the vast majority who
go on to have extremely successful, thriving,
high -performing lives, careers and jobs in their
second phase, as it were, once they retire. So
while we want to give the very best care that
we can for those who need it across all the uniformed
and non -uniformed services, we also should shine
a light on the fact that serving in whichever
way is your way to serve whether it's volunteering
or you know working in a pet shelter but doing
things for others um is what we must try and
encourage the next generation to fight for and
recognize the value of because certainly when
people talk about having purpose or not feeling
that they have purpose it generally links back
to not having or having something that is bigger
than themselves and i think we need to encourage
and continue to encourage you know from very
early age that that you know go back to one of
those very early comments that you mentioned
about um when we are born and what we what we
do and how we view the world we've got to just
bring that back as a core part of the of who
we are as western civilized societies i think
100 well we talked about books what about film
television documentaries any of those that you
like films i can never remember the films that
i've watched because i i generally I don't really
watch films quite often, very often. But if I
do, it's often because I've got to stay up for
eight hours on a night when I'm supposed to be
sleeping, but I'm on a plane to go to a new time
zone. So I might watch four movies back to back
just to stay awake. And then some of them I might
enjoy. Some of them are very forgettable. And
then I'll speak to friends and I'll say, oh,
what did you watch? I watched one brilliant movie.
What was it called? No idea. So do more of the
kind of the box sets at the moment. COVID was
very much all the narcos. I did all of those.
I suppose some of the ones that I really enjoyed
recently, Black Doves. Have you watched that?
I haven't heard of that one, no. It's a British
series, basically some assassins. Keira Knightley
is a middle -aged mum who happens to be an assassin,
but her cover is that she's a middle -aged mum
with kids. And it's a very funny script. I'm
sure you'll enjoy it. The weird thing that I
don't, maybe I don't want to spoil it, but the
thing that really freaked me out when I realized
halfway through is that the guy who plays her
partner, assassin partner, he is the voice of
Paddington, the movie. When you're watching this
guy do his sort of, you know, his hit jobs, you're
thinking, you know, Paddington and Mr. Brown
and all that stuff is a bit weird. So Black Doves
is a recommendation. Just finished all the Yellowstones.
I kind of binge watch stuff just to kind of,
you know, before bed, just watch something. I'm
not sure what's next on the calendar. I've never
seen Game of Thrones. People tell me I really
missed out there. So maybe I should do that at
some point. We're just watching Yellowstone now.
And it's funny when you talk about Paddington,
I can just see him standing over a body with
a gun in his hand, eating a marmalade sandwich.
It's very weird, but it's a good one. All right.
Well, the next question, is there a person you'd
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest
to speak to the first responders, military and
associated professions of the world? Yes. When
you're talking about fire chief and toxicity
and the challenge of trying to do the right thing
for your people, there is a former colleague
of mine who was in the Royal Marines in the UK.
Very, very talented officer. He left earlier
than he should have done, probably. would certainly
have been a general if he'd remained. And he
went into public sector and did a lot of work
in fire and particularly in fire, where he was
trying to turn around various issues that were
happening in a particular area. So I think he
would resonate with some of the things that you've
highlighted. So I'll definitely connect you with
him. Ollie Lee is his name. Brilliant. Thank
you. And then also, I don't know if she would
be interested, but I think getting Jessica on
to talk about the book would be another good
one. Oh, yeah. Jess loves to, would love all
this. And she's, like I said, her background
is very much policing and emergency services.
And she's worked with the Royal Foundation of
Royal Highnesses, Prince and Princesses of Wales,
and a bunch of other people. She's from Cambridge
University. She's just a really good person who
can turn what is quite high fluting science and
you know, academic thinking into stuff that even
I can understand. So that's got to be a good
thing. Yeah. We call it fireman proof. So perfect.
All right. Well, the last question before we
make sure where people can find the book, what
do you do to decompress apart from sitting in
the middle of a construction area? Yeah. Sorry
about that. Um, when I can, I, well, I try and
I try and stay active and not having a dog at
the moment is, has made me lazier. When it's
pouring with rain, it's a miserable day and it's
6 a .m. and the dog wants to go out, you just
go. Now I don't do as much of that until we have
a replacement or the next generation. But I listen
to podcasts, which people take. make fun of me
because i do listen to them at twice speed because
i've got too many that i want to listen to so
i find that quite relaxing other people find
it highly stressful if they get in the car with
me and this podcast is running at twice speed
like what the hell is this slow it down um so
i do podcasts and i generally listen to podcasts
when i'm running uh or walking when i say running
i'm a slow plodder now because of you know various
injuries but i do like to get outside so i run
when i can because i've got so many friends who
can't run anymore and i sort of feel like i owe
it to them but i do enjoy just being out there
i wish i was fitter and faster but you know age
has its problems um and just just getting outside
and walking really um i do love reading but i
don't do enough of it i sort of go through phases
but yeah just getting outside and that's one
of the things that i think can help all of us
just even if it's five minutes or ten minutes
you know on a busy day and just fresh air or
fresh ish air and just seeing trees and birds
and just stuff that isn't your computer screen
can be quite helpful absolutely i couldn't agree
more so mindful soldier Firstly, where can people
find the book? When is it out again in the US
and UK? All good bookshops. It's available for
pre -order now. The UK publication date is the
22nd of January, but pre -orders in Amazon, Waterstones
and all major UK stores. And then globally in
the US, I believe it's going to be Barnes & Noble
and Amazon and all the major bookstores in the
US. And then globally, if you just type Mindful
Soldier. Because of the shenanigans that I mentioned
earlier with the change of publisher, there are
still some sites that are showing the incorrect
and the non -existent version, which has a, let's
say, a more cliparty version of a mountain at
the bottom. The book that is the one that you
want to be ordering, if you're interested, has
a hand -drawn mountain with a climber going up
the mountain. And as I mentioned earlier, all
proceeds or all profits that I make, assuming
there will be any, hopefully there'll be lots,
100 % of all profits will be donated to international
veterans charities. So I'm not keeping a penny
because this isn't about me. So hopefully you'll
enjoy the read anyway, and you might learn something
or find it comforting or inspirational or motivational.
But if not, and you hate it, then I'm sorry,
but you'll still be helping veterans. So that's
good. So there you go. Yeah. All right. And if
people want to learn more about you, follow you
on social media, where are the best places there?
I've tried to be simple. So I've got one handle
that covers all the different platforms. I can't
say I'm a very good social media person. I have
TikTok and all these other things, but I probably
need somebody to help me do it better. But it's
Ash Alex Cooper, all one word. So at Ash Alex
Cooper, and that'll be Instagram, Twitter, sorry,
X, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. Brilliant.
I just re -followed you because I got my page
shut down yet again on Instagram. You unfollowed
me? No, no, I didn't unfollow you. In a year,
I had been shut down twice. Both times, I mean,
all I post is usually just kindness, compassion,
community, and then perspective standing in the
middle. And I guess the divisive algorithm doesn't
like it because I had a target on my back twice
now. So yeah, out of the blue, I was shut down
completely. And so now it's behind the shield,
911. 0 .3 .0 so yeah okay well i'll follow you
back then i didn't i thought i was following
you already so well yeah no you were twice okay
all right upset anyone or do upset i mean it's
good to upset people occasionally I think that's
the point. I think if you get shut down and you
know you haven't done anything untoward, then
you're doing it right. You're shaking the right
tree. Anyway, I want to thank you so much. It's
been such an amazing conversation to really explore
some of these areas that you've written about
and then look back at some of the things that
we discussed in the past. It's been phenomenal.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming back onto the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Well, I just hope there's
still some people listening that they made it
through the two hours of our musings. But thank
you for the time. I do appreciate it. And I really
value our friendship. And thank you for everything
you do to support this community. It's a really
powerful community. And I would love to do more
to support you in supporting them. So hopefully
the book will be some way going towards that.
So thank you.