WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.000
This episode is sponsored by a company who has

00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:04.719
truly found a solution to an age -old problem,

00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:08.380
and that is Carna Bunker Gear. One of the most

00:00:08.380 --> 00:00:11.099
prevalent conversations in the fire service is

00:00:11.099 --> 00:00:13.560
should we or should we not train in our bunker

00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.320
gear? Now the answer to both is yes. As most

00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:19.679
of us are aware, the carcinogens from structure

00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:23.179
fires of which there are over 260 that are dangerous

00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:26.280
to human health, not to mention the PFAS and

00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:28.359
other chemicals that are within our gear from

00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:31.420
the manufacturing process, are factors that we

00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:34.119
obviously want to minimize. Now the other side

00:00:34.119 --> 00:00:36.920
of the coin is that we do need to train in our

00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:39.500
gear. There is no way to acclimatize the heat

00:00:39.500 --> 00:00:42.100
retention and lack of mobility than to actually

00:00:42.100 --> 00:00:44.700
wear the gear. So seeing this problem himself,

00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:48.380
firefighter and exercise physiologist Ryan Conley

00:00:48.380 --> 00:00:51.780
developed a carcinogen -free gear at a much lower

00:00:51.780 --> 00:00:55.460
cost that can be used in non -IDLH atmosphere

00:00:55.460 --> 00:00:58.539
and training that does not require puncture or

00:00:58.539 --> 00:01:01.500
tear resistance. Now, as someone who always trained

00:01:01.500 --> 00:01:04.079
in gear myself throughout my career, I wish this

00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:06.900
technology was around then. And I got to test

00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:09.540
it personally while coaching my tactical athlete

00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:12.819
class a few weeks ago and can testify that it

00:01:12.819 --> 00:01:15.480
not only simulates the heat retention of frontline

00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.959
gear, but also the lack of mobility, which is

00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:21.319
imperative at operating at a high level on the

00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:24.200
fire ground. Now, some additional benefits include

00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:27.120
being able to doff the gear when you do get banged

00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.219
out for a call, increasing the lifespan of your

00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:33.629
frontline bunker gear, And then also public education.

00:01:33.629 --> 00:01:35.890
Think of the number of times that we allow, for

00:01:35.890 --> 00:01:38.829
example, schoolchildren to wear our gear when

00:01:38.829 --> 00:01:41.989
it's infused with all these carcinogens. So there

00:01:41.989 --> 00:01:45.349
are so many real world applications for a fraction

00:01:45.349 --> 00:01:49.549
of the cost of IDLH rated bunker gear. So if

00:01:49.549 --> 00:01:51.489
you want to hear the whole story behind this,

00:01:51.530 --> 00:01:54.010
listen to my conversation with Ryan Conley on

00:01:54.010 --> 00:01:57.590
episode 1175 of the Behind the Shield podcast,

00:01:58.069 --> 00:02:03.849
or go to karnabunkergear .com. Welcome to the

00:02:03.849 --> 00:02:05.590
Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my name

00:02:05.590 --> 00:02:07.730
is James Geering, and this week it is my absolute

00:02:07.730 --> 00:02:11.229
honor to welcome back onto the show former elite

00:02:11.229 --> 00:02:14.650
soldier, world championship athlete, and international

00:02:14.650 --> 00:02:19.860
musician, Ash Alexander Cooper. Now, if you missed

00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.240
my first conversation with Ash, it was episode

00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:26.900
693. So in this second conversation, we discuss

00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:30.159
a host of topics from reflecting on the lessons

00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.120
of COVID, the 7X Human Performance Project, his

00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:37.680
new book, Mindful Soldier, the impact of childhood

00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.599
trauma, the exciting and terrifying world of

00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.719
drones, forging elite mental performance. the

00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.719
healing power of altruism, and so much more.

00:02:49.340 --> 00:02:51.759
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.840
as I say every week, please just take a moment.

00:02:55.379 --> 00:02:58.539
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

00:02:58.539 --> 00:03:02.280
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

00:03:02.939 --> 00:03:06.319
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:08.979
this podcast, therefore making it easier for

00:03:08.979 --> 00:03:12.599
others to find. And this is a free library of

00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:17.300
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:20.479
is that you help share these incredible men and

00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.639
women's stories so I can get them to every single

00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.560
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

00:03:27.099 --> 00:03:30.180
So with that being said, I welcome back onto

00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:53.969
the show... Ash Alexander Cooper. Enjoy. Well,

00:03:54.009 --> 00:03:57.030
Ash, I want to start by saying welcome back to

00:03:57.030 --> 00:03:59.289
the Behind the Shield podcast. The last time

00:03:59.289 --> 00:04:02.650
we spoke was actually November 2022 on episode

00:04:02.650 --> 00:04:08.750
693. You've done a few. Yeah, that was about

00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:11.349
the halfway point. I'm almost at 1200 now. So

00:04:11.349 --> 00:04:14.909
where on planet Earth are we finding you this

00:04:14.909 --> 00:04:18.550
morning? I am actually in London today. It's

00:04:18.550 --> 00:04:20.790
been a pretty mad year. I just had to, for my

00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:23.680
work. tell them how many days I'd spent overseas

00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:25.980
this year. And it's about six months. So it feels

00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:27.560
a bit like being back in uniform, honestly, on

00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.699
an operational deployment somewhere. But I'm

00:04:29.699 --> 00:04:31.819
now back in the UK, which is technically home.

00:04:31.899 --> 00:04:34.319
So I'm hoping that that's the last travel for

00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.019
the year. What is taking you traveling now in

00:04:38.019 --> 00:04:42.259
2025? My main job is I lead the international

00:04:42.259 --> 00:04:44.920
business for an airspace security company called

00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:48.519
D -Drone by Axon. Airspace security really in

00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:50.939
our world is all about counter drone technology.

00:04:51.259 --> 00:04:53.819
So we're clearly fairly topical at the moment

00:04:53.819 --> 00:04:56.500
with the number of incidents that are happening

00:04:56.500 --> 00:04:58.939
globally with drone incursions, whether it's

00:04:58.939 --> 00:05:02.220
on the battlefield or at nuclear sites or potentially

00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:04.199
impacting presidents, prime ministers, sporting

00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.459
events, super yachts, data centers, you name

00:05:07.459 --> 00:05:09.860
it. And we protect a lot of those globally. So

00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:12.079
it's been quite busy and it's getting busier

00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.439
by the minute. Without obviously going into any

00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:17.920
area that you can't talk about, With your military

00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.060
background and now this role that you hold, talk

00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:23.839
to me about the evolution of the use of this

00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.100
technology. And then what are some of just kind

00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:28.779
of the overarching dangers for the general public

00:05:28.779 --> 00:05:31.660
that maybe we should know about? Well, I talk

00:05:31.660 --> 00:05:33.899
about this quite a lot, actually, when I've had

00:05:33.899 --> 00:05:36.100
to think about the kind of threats that I faced

00:05:36.100 --> 00:05:38.319
when I was in uniform. And as you know, from

00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:40.600
our previous chat, you know, I've been... lucky

00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.500
or unlucky to have been shot a couple of times,

00:05:42.540 --> 00:05:44.680
blown up a couple of times, had a couple of helicopter

00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:46.959
crashes and suicide bombers and stuff that I've

00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.040
survived attacks from. Of all those incidents

00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:52.339
and many others, gun battles and other things

00:05:52.339 --> 00:05:55.560
with colleagues around the world, when I think

00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:57.560
back to those times, not a single one of those

00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:01.680
incidents caused me to ever have to look up really

00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:03.779
to worry about what might be coming from above.

00:06:04.569 --> 00:06:06.470
the world is clearly very very different now

00:06:06.470 --> 00:06:08.810
back then we owned the airspace you know we had

00:06:08.810 --> 00:06:11.990
either air superiority or air supremacy and so

00:06:11.990 --> 00:06:14.569
what drives me now is to try and see what we

00:06:14.569 --> 00:06:17.430
can do to help those who are in a very different

00:06:17.430 --> 00:06:19.850
battlefield if they happen to be deployed somewhere

00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:23.089
nasty but equally at home you know the threat

00:06:23.089 --> 00:06:26.680
from a $200 drone against a sporting event or

00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.899
a stadium is incredibly high. And it doesn't

00:06:29.899 --> 00:06:32.079
have to be a state actor to do quite a lot of

00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.939
harm if they chose to. So what we're now doing

00:06:34.939 --> 00:06:38.079
is obviously trying to identify in real time

00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:40.660
for as many of our customers that need it, the

00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:43.259
kind of threats that are flying around that may

00:06:43.259 --> 00:06:47.519
just be in some cases, ill -educated or... novice

00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:49.139
flyers that don't know quite how dangerous it

00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:52.000
is to fly an aircraft or fly a drone rather very

00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.720
close to an airfield to get a cool picture of

00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:55.839
a plane coming into land that's very very dangerous

00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:58.939
you know if you misjudge the distance or a drone

00:06:58.939 --> 00:07:00.540
were to go into the air intake or just hit the

00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:02.600
plane so um you know that's what we're doing

00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.360
is to try and educate as well as provide technology

00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.360
that enables people to understand what malicious

00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.540
activity may be or illegal activity may be happening,

00:07:11.620 --> 00:07:13.819
but also enable good drones to fly, whether it's

00:07:13.819 --> 00:07:16.740
medical supplies or deliveries or whatever. It's

00:07:16.740 --> 00:07:18.639
just that lower airspace we're now trying to

00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.879
help ensure is properly understood, protected,

00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:25.889
and so it can be safe. Well, let's expand on

00:07:25.889 --> 00:07:28.629
that for a second. What are the incredible innovations

00:07:28.629 --> 00:07:31.490
when it comes to, as you mentioned, whether it's

00:07:31.490 --> 00:07:34.329
delivery of medical supplies, whether it's firefighting,

00:07:34.329 --> 00:07:36.629
any other areas, the law enforcement side, that

00:07:36.629 --> 00:07:38.769
this application is being used for the greater

00:07:38.769 --> 00:07:41.589
good rather than military or, God forbid, terrorism?

00:07:42.209 --> 00:07:44.730
Yeah, I mean, you see it every day. I mean, I

00:07:44.730 --> 00:07:48.230
see a lot of stuff online. China seems to be

00:07:48.230 --> 00:07:50.589
doing some pretty interesting things with drones

00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:53.540
and everything from... massive drones that are

00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:55.420
connected to from your, you know, your world

00:07:55.420 --> 00:07:59.220
of firefighting with huge hoses that attach them.

00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.240
And then suddenly they can reach, you know, the

00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:05.220
50th floor of an apartment block and try and

00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:07.060
help put the fire out before the entire building,

00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:09.800
you know, is destroyed or people are killed or

00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.660
burned in it through to, you know, mountain rescues.

00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.810
And I mean, all sorts of things. The ways in

00:08:17.810 --> 00:08:19.910
which this could be used as technology for good

00:08:19.910 --> 00:08:23.029
is incredible. But I think, unfortunately, the

00:08:23.029 --> 00:08:25.550
focus tends to be at the moment on all the bad

00:08:25.550 --> 00:08:28.310
ways that one could use this technology. And

00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:29.629
we're seeing it obviously playing out in Ukraine

00:08:29.629 --> 00:08:33.129
every day. And that's where we see the fastest

00:08:33.129 --> 00:08:36.309
innovation of the threat and then the response

00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:40.240
and that timeline between. The good guys coming

00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.399
up with a response or a way to mitigate the threat

00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.000
posed by bad guys is getting shorter and shorter.

00:08:45.019 --> 00:08:47.159
The cycle is just speeding up all the time. So

00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.879
it's a difficult space to be in. So we haven't

00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.740
picked an easy world to be working, but it's

00:08:53.740 --> 00:08:55.559
certainly a fascinating place. And you certainly

00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:57.899
can feel that you can do good every day. And

00:08:57.899 --> 00:09:00.320
that matters to me and my team in terms of purpose.

00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:03.659
Have you crossed paths with Richard Browning?

00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:07.419
No, we're connected, but no, I've not actually.

00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:10.509
not worked with him in terms of his, his technology,

00:09:10.549 --> 00:09:12.970
but it's pretty, looks pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:13.029 --> 00:09:16.230
So what was interesting when we spoke, um, he

00:09:16.230 --> 00:09:18.330
obviously has the kind of like the Ironman jet

00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:21.450
pack basically, but he was talking about the

00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:24.590
ability to put a paramedic in, you know, a wilderness

00:09:24.590 --> 00:09:26.529
event. So someone, you know, a mountaineer falls

00:09:26.529 --> 00:09:29.070
off or something, sending the medic up with,

00:09:29.129 --> 00:09:31.929
you know, the bag on their back, um, treating

00:09:31.929 --> 00:09:34.429
the patient, putting them in a stretcher, but

00:09:34.429 --> 00:09:36.330
then a drone is actually what would carry them

00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:38.809
back. Cause I guess, Technically, you can't have

00:09:38.809 --> 00:09:42.470
a manned drone. You can't fly with the patient

00:09:42.470 --> 00:09:45.309
because of FAA rules or the British equivalent,

00:09:45.389 --> 00:09:48.529
but you can send it down with a drone and then

00:09:48.529 --> 00:09:50.649
have the ambulance at the bottom waiting to receive

00:09:50.649 --> 00:09:53.289
the patient. So it was interesting seeing that

00:09:53.289 --> 00:09:54.929
the potential, especially in, like you said,

00:09:54.970 --> 00:09:59.110
high -rise events or some austere environment

00:09:59.110 --> 00:10:01.230
where you can access a patient with some of these

00:10:01.230 --> 00:10:05.110
technologies now. Yeah, absolutely. I think that

00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:07.350
the challenge with... really serious injuries

00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:09.389
is that stabilization piece that you wouldn't

00:10:09.389 --> 00:10:12.090
want to fly somebody if they are serious enough

00:10:12.090 --> 00:10:16.409
to need to be evacuated medically by air, whether

00:10:16.409 --> 00:10:18.509
it's by helicopter or by drone or some other

00:10:18.509 --> 00:10:20.750
means, the chances are they're pretty unstable.

00:10:21.370 --> 00:10:23.929
And that depends how much time it's going to

00:10:23.929 --> 00:10:25.909
take, obviously, to fly them back to the main

00:10:25.909 --> 00:10:28.529
ambulance or the hospital. But that's I think

00:10:28.529 --> 00:10:30.029
that's the challenge for a lot of folks now is

00:10:30.029 --> 00:10:32.289
like if I were to send somebody and they were

00:10:32.289 --> 00:10:34.789
to deteriorate during that flight. you know,

00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:36.309
there's nobody there to do anything about it.

00:10:36.330 --> 00:10:38.450
So it's a challenge, but I think the opportunities

00:10:38.450 --> 00:10:40.690
are immense, you know, if we want to find good

00:10:40.690 --> 00:10:43.470
ways to use this technology. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:10:43.509 --> 00:10:46.190
I mean, even the automation of compressions,

00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:48.629
you know, with some of these autopulses that

00:10:48.629 --> 00:10:50.809
we have now, the auto vents, I mean, technically

00:10:50.809 --> 00:10:53.509
you could, in theory, set them up with drips,

00:10:53.509 --> 00:10:55.669
all things, and then send them down where the

00:10:55.669 --> 00:10:58.149
machines are basically keeping them stable. So,

00:10:58.149 --> 00:11:03.240
you know, we shall see. Yeah. When I saw some

00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.159
of the footage coming from that horrendous event

00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:09.539
in Bondi Beach, there was now just surface drone

00:11:09.539 --> 00:11:13.519
footage of, sadly, far too graphic for the news,

00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.259
in my opinion, but it's showing some of the casualties,

00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.000
the shooters. So talk to me about that, the novice,

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:25.279
the wannabe video Instagram star with their drones.

00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:30.659
What are the... The challenges and then also,

00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.340
like you said, even the potential domestic terrorism

00:11:33.340 --> 00:11:37.100
or any terrorism threats of the lone wolf, as

00:11:37.100 --> 00:11:39.240
opposed to, as you mentioned, the Ukraine, where

00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.320
it's an actual military force. Yeah. I mean,

00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:43.019
Australia is a place that I've spent a lot of

00:11:43.019 --> 00:11:45.440
time this year. We've been growing our support

00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.820
to the nation's security there over the last

00:11:47.820 --> 00:11:49.480
couple of years, just quietly building it up

00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:52.179
in the background. And we now protect every state

00:11:52.179 --> 00:11:54.879
and territory in Australia. So we are. actually

00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.200
deployed currently, obviously me not personally,

00:11:57.299 --> 00:11:59.379
but we have technology that is in and around

00:11:59.379 --> 00:12:02.500
Bondi to help with that follow up with the law

00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:04.679
enforcement and emergency services working down

00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:09.200
there. What we have found Just in summer like

00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:10.840
Australia, but it's indicative of any Western

00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:13.200
country, really the proliferation of drones,

00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.259
the ease with which one can purchase without

00:12:15.259 --> 00:12:17.700
any piloting skills. As long as you've got a

00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:19.460
few hundred dollars, you can buy a drone. And,

00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:21.700
you know, I'm sure you are as well being inundated

00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:24.419
with Christmas Instagram adverts for, you know,

00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:26.559
buy the drone that follows you cycling or skiing

00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.019
or whatever. You know, the technology is there

00:12:29.019 --> 00:12:30.899
to make it very easy for people to get quite

00:12:30.899 --> 00:12:33.450
cool. Footage of stuff that they might do, whether

00:12:33.450 --> 00:12:35.590
they're Instagram influencers or just people

00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:37.870
who want to record some of the cool stuff they're

00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:42.490
doing. With that, the risk of just more things

00:12:42.490 --> 00:12:45.690
flying is clearly a challenge. And that's, as

00:12:45.690 --> 00:12:48.190
I said, what we're trying to do is to help our

00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:50.730
customers understand the totality of what may

00:12:50.730 --> 00:12:52.730
be flying in that lower airspace that could be

00:12:52.730 --> 00:12:57.080
used for good, might be... harmful or maybe downright

00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:59.779
being used deliberately for something illegal

00:12:59.779 --> 00:13:04.039
or terrorist related. So half the battle with

00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:05.539
a lot of our customers, including in Australia,

00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:08.039
is to help quantify what is actually happening

00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:11.820
in real time, day to day. And of all the sites

00:13:11.820 --> 00:13:13.840
that we protect across Australia, we don't cover

00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.100
everything, but we cover most major cities and

00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:18.559
stadiums and everything else across different

00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.940
government organizations. We're now seeing up

00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:23.659
to 125 ,000 drone alerts or drone activities

00:13:23.659 --> 00:13:26.299
a month. which is a lot more than people anticipated

00:13:26.299 --> 00:13:29.379
for a relatively small, in population terms,

00:13:29.620 --> 00:13:32.919
a small country. The U .S. is clearly orders

00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:35.299
of magnitude more than that, and Europe is equally

00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:38.519
going up pretty rapidly. So the first challenge

00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.659
for any organization, emergency services or otherwise,

00:13:41.779 --> 00:13:43.740
that's trying to keep the public safe is to understand

00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:47.080
what actually is flying. And, you know, you referenced

00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:49.200
Bondi. I haven't seen the footage. I wouldn't

00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.879
seek it out. I've seen plenty of that kind of

00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:53.500
thing in the past and don't need much more of

00:13:53.500 --> 00:13:57.740
it. But I think where we can find ways that if

00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:59.820
people happen to be flying, they've not gone

00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:01.960
there deliberately just to try and capture unpleasant

00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:03.919
imagery, but if they happen to be flying and

00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:06.279
capture something that could be used usefully

00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:09.720
to understand pre -attack, during attack or post

00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.419
-attack, so that helps the government officials

00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:15.460
actually understand what went on and potentially

00:14:15.460 --> 00:14:18.379
prosecute or understand if the threat is more

00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:22.259
broad than that isolated incident, then... There

00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:24.500
are ways that we should be able to, we should

00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:26.620
be trying to leverage that footage and those

00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:30.919
flights for good. But the first hurdle is to

00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:32.220
understand what actually is there and should

00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:37.799
it even be there or not. One last area, two things

00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:39.919
on the drones and we'll move on. But firstly,

00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:43.019
as a first responder, we used to be told about

00:14:43.019 --> 00:14:46.350
secondary devices. You go to an explosion. 7

00:14:46.350 --> 00:14:48.710
-7 is a perfect example. The responders all flocked

00:14:48.710 --> 00:14:50.330
there and now there's another bomb in the trash

00:14:50.330 --> 00:14:54.210
can or when we were young, IRA even. When it

00:14:54.210 --> 00:14:58.730
comes to airspace first, what are the forces

00:14:58.730 --> 00:15:02.409
that are working against drones going into Wembley

00:15:02.409 --> 00:15:04.830
Stadium or whatever? And then what about also

00:15:04.830 --> 00:15:07.389
the privacy? Can a drone sit above your garden

00:15:07.389 --> 00:15:10.149
and film you or are there things that are stopping

00:15:10.149 --> 00:15:13.519
that happening as well? Well, there's... Clearly,

00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.240
in any country, there'll be areas of restricted

00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.200
airspace. It may be over government buildings,

00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:22.059
the King, Queen's Palace, or certainly airports

00:15:22.059 --> 00:15:26.059
and critical infrastructure. So if drones are

00:15:26.059 --> 00:15:28.799
trying to fly inside those spaces, then that

00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:30.740
should alert. If you have systems in place to

00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:34.820
detect those flights, then that will alert the

00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:37.080
emergency services or law enforcement to know

00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:38.340
that something is there that it shouldn't be

00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:40.779
if it's not been registered to be there officially

00:15:40.779 --> 00:15:44.799
and legally. But I don't think there's necessarily

00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:46.940
anything. I mean, every country is clearly different,

00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:51.879
but we support a number of, let's say, high profile

00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:54.840
people who do have systems now to understand

00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.419
what is happening if people were trying to hover

00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:00.200
over their house or see who's there or what's

00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.259
going on. But it is quite difficult, I think,

00:16:03.259 --> 00:16:05.019
in many jurisdictions to actually make that illegal

00:16:05.019 --> 00:16:07.740
if it's open airspace, if it's not part of a

00:16:07.740 --> 00:16:10.200
restricted zone. But in terms of Wembley, what

00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:12.279
was the question specifically again on a stadium?

00:16:12.830 --> 00:16:14.809
So as far as the Wembley Stadium, what I was

00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:17.509
saying was now, as you said, the kind of restricted

00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:20.350
airspace, what are the things that are in place

00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:22.809
to stop a drone going over Buckingham Palace

00:16:22.809 --> 00:16:25.649
or Wembley Stadium that may be a threat to the

00:16:25.649 --> 00:16:28.710
security there? Yeah, so the way that you need

00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:31.250
to think about airspace security and particularly

00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:33.649
in the counter drone space is a layered approach

00:16:33.649 --> 00:16:36.710
to both detection and defeat. And in terms of

00:16:36.710 --> 00:16:38.330
detection, there are different types of sensors

00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:41.610
that might be appropriate or affordable or available

00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:45.570
to be used legally by those sites. Radio frequency

00:16:45.570 --> 00:16:47.909
detection is generally the foundational layer.

00:16:48.110 --> 00:16:50.769
It's the longest range, the best bang for buck

00:16:50.769 --> 00:16:53.169
in most cases. And that basically is looking

00:16:53.169 --> 00:16:57.590
for the signature or the signal, like an ID of

00:16:57.590 --> 00:17:00.289
the drone that's flying. So it might tell you

00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:02.330
that here is the pilot, where the pilot's flying

00:17:02.330 --> 00:17:04.009
the drone from, here is the live location of

00:17:04.009 --> 00:17:06.059
the drone. And here is the home location where

00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:08.680
the drone took off from for that flight. Within

00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.539
that, it'll be looking for the frequency the

00:17:10.539 --> 00:17:13.240
drone's flying on, any other sort of data that's

00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:15.539
related to that individual drone should be able

00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:17.880
to be detected, which will then tell you it's

00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:19.940
a DJI something or it's an Autel something or

00:17:19.940 --> 00:17:22.799
it's a Skydio something. So that's the RF layer,

00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:26.759
which is for 95 % of most of the world is fine.

00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:31.599
But where you have non -standard or... drones

00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.299
that are deliberately being made or flown in

00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:36.779
a way that is designed to not be standard, let's

00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:39.940
say. Ukraine is a good example where there are

00:17:39.940 --> 00:17:41.680
lots of non -standard drones there, then you

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.140
might be blind to that signature in radio frequency

00:17:44.140 --> 00:17:46.500
terms. And that's when you would seek to add

00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.160
things like cameras for optical detection and

00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.380
radar. which even if it's a fiber -optically

00:17:51.380 --> 00:17:54.819
flown drone that has no RF signature and is therefore

00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:57.599
much harder to see and detect, you will still

00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:59.660
not be able to hide from the radar. So that's

00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:02.220
the sort of layered approach to detection. There

00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:04.299
are other sensor modalities like acoustics, but

00:18:04.299 --> 00:18:06.500
generally those three are the main thing, RF

00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:09.160
plus camera or radar. And then defeat, it really

00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:11.160
depends what legally you're allowed to do. On

00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:12.920
the battlefield, you might be able to use laser

00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.039
or bullets or shotguns or whatever it may be.

00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.039
Domestically, it's a lot more restricted as you

00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:24.000
would expect and hope. But you can jam RF, which

00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:25.720
means that you would be trying to block the signal

00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:27.640
from the pilot to the drone. So the drone would

00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:29.740
suddenly not be knowing what it's being asked

00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:32.289
to do. And what generally happens in those scenarios

00:18:32.289 --> 00:18:34.329
is the drone might go into a hover to try and

00:18:34.329 --> 00:18:36.730
see if it can reconnect with the pilot. If not,

00:18:36.730 --> 00:18:40.309
then it will go home, which is fine unless the

00:18:40.309 --> 00:18:42.349
home location has been spoofed. And we do see

00:18:42.349 --> 00:18:44.809
increasing cases of that, not generally domestically

00:18:44.809 --> 00:18:46.869
anywhere, but in sort of combat environments

00:18:46.869 --> 00:18:48.769
where the home has been made to be the target.

00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:51.329
So if you're only legally allowed to jam the

00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:53.529
radio frequency and the drone then goes home.

00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:55.380
but home isn't home, you might have actually

00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:56.920
made the problem worse or not certainly made

00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.859
it better. You can then in another non -kinetic

00:19:00.859 --> 00:19:03.519
way jam the GPS signal. But again, many countries

00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.099
don't allow a lot of that to happen. But if you

00:19:06.099 --> 00:19:08.519
had the first scenario where the drone is going

00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:10.599
to carry on to its target because the home has

00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.220
been spoofed, the only way to stop that happening

00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:15.680
is to jam the GPS signal to the drone so it won't

00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.200
know where home is, regardless of whether home

00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.259
is really home or not. That's a pretty fascinating

00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:24.940
space. I mean, I'm not technical enough really

00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:28.319
to be dangerous, but these concepts, we've got

00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:29.859
much more clever people than me who are doing

00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:33.480
AI track fusion and all sorts of risk -based

00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:35.480
prioritization and various clever algorithms

00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.000
that understand what is actually flying and happening

00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.680
in real time so that we can present to the users

00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:43.079
the... A single version of the truth so that

00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:44.980
somebody who's under pressure in a police ops

00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:47.619
room or an emergency room can make a quick decision

00:19:47.619 --> 00:19:49.500
and make the right decision about what to do

00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:52.160
about the threat before it goes bang or does

00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.019
something unpleasant. See, I'm glad that we went

00:19:55.019 --> 00:19:56.279
down this rabbit hole. Obviously, we're going

00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:58.039
to be talking about the book, but this is something

00:19:58.039 --> 00:19:59.720
that, you know, I've never heard before. I mean,

00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:01.200
Richard Browning is probably the closest. And

00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.420
then I had a police officer recently that they

00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:07.500
use drones for. going into an event so again

00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:09.359
you know let's say you've got sydney now you've

00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:11.259
got a police drone okay who have we got you know

00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:12.839
where are they okay they're on the bridge and

00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.079
now obviously they can they can figure out the

00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.359
strategy from there um or you know while they're

00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.460
in exposures which they actually found on that

00:20:19.460 --> 00:20:22.299
scene if i'm not mistaken but then you know on

00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:25.180
the other side it's terrifying i i for years

00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:27.660
i was a stuntman and i did the terminator 2 show

00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:30.220
and in that show there are drones that chase

00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:32.559
you know the robots and and then here we are

00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.619
now it's crazy but so With you having been boots

00:20:36.619 --> 00:20:38.759
on ground in a lot of these conflicts that we've

00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:43.640
seen recently as a soldier, what is the future

00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.099
of warfare? Because as you alluded to, some of

00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:49.099
these drone strikes are horrendous to watch when

00:20:49.099 --> 00:20:50.880
they've got some of the video attached to them.

00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.460
We see the same thing in Gaza, for example, especially

00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:55.700
when it's not even combatants that are being

00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:59.220
targeted. What is the future going to hold? Are

00:20:59.220 --> 00:21:01.420
we going to ultimately have drone versus drone

00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:05.309
from country? Let me put it a different way.

00:21:06.069 --> 00:21:07.589
Optimistically, what do you hope it will look

00:21:07.589 --> 00:21:10.190
like? And then pessimistically, where is the

00:21:10.190 --> 00:21:13.130
bad side of where this could go? I mean, to answer

00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:14.509
your first bit of the question, I think it's

00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:16.730
not a sexy answer, but essentially the future

00:21:16.730 --> 00:21:20.789
of warfare is data. Who can get the most accurate

00:21:20.789 --> 00:21:24.930
data in the right format, in the right time to

00:21:24.930 --> 00:21:28.740
make decisions? potentially autonomously to know

00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:30.500
what the best thing to do is on a battlefield

00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:32.099
or in the airspace around the things that you

00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:33.980
care about that you're seeking to protect. It's

00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:35.900
going to be about the ability for us to share

00:21:35.900 --> 00:21:38.799
data securely, safely and quickly at the right

00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:40.720
time in the right place to make the right decisions.

00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.400
I mean, we're already seeing sort of not necessarily

00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:46.980
drone on drone, but unmanned on unmanned. And

00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:48.759
that's going to be a growing feature of both

00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.940
air forces. navy fleets you know you name it

00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:54.579
we are going to be moving away rapidly i would

00:21:54.579 --> 00:21:57.660
suggest from large totemic aircraft carriers

00:21:57.660 --> 00:22:01.700
and carrier groups to a lot more speedier smaller

00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:05.519
literal vessels that don't require you know years

00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.980
of development and billions and billions of dollars

00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:12.140
worth of of design etc that could be taken out

00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:15.339
with a single missile that can go you know supersonic

00:22:15.849 --> 00:22:18.329
from many thousands of miles away and your entire

00:22:18.329 --> 00:22:21.289
platform on which you are relying to launch your

00:22:21.289 --> 00:22:23.890
other things from become completely obsolete.

00:22:24.089 --> 00:22:26.569
So I think the non -sexy answer is that it's

00:22:26.569 --> 00:22:29.450
going to be all about data. And when I talk a

00:22:29.450 --> 00:22:32.190
lot to the media at the moment about the European

00:22:32.190 --> 00:22:34.630
threat, obviously people are looking east and

00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:38.430
very worried about what the threat is going to

00:22:38.430 --> 00:22:40.970
evolve to become closer to home. Clearly, Ukraine

00:22:40.970 --> 00:22:43.710
is suffering daily from an onslaught of drones

00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:47.019
and other things. Those countries I'm seeing

00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.119
the further west you get, the sort of more, not

00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.140
necessarily lackadaisical, but it's a less urgent

00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:55.339
threat than perhaps people realize could be impacting

00:22:55.339 --> 00:22:58.519
us tomorrow if we were unlucky. And while there's

00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:00.460
a focus on a concept you may have heard called

00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:03.160
the European drone wall, which is a nice idea

00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.339
and it should absolutely be part of the solution

00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:07.539
where you've got a not necessarily impenetrable

00:23:07.539 --> 00:23:09.619
wall, but a wall of detection that is looking

00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:11.779
east and is able to see the threats well before

00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:14.319
they get to your actual border. That's great.

00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:16.599
But what if the threat is already behind you?

00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:19.380
We saw back in the summer with an operation that

00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:22.180
was widely publicized called Spider's Web, where

00:23:22.180 --> 00:23:24.420
the Ukrainians were already thousands of kilometers

00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:26.400
inside Russia when they launched their attack.

00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.640
So if we'd been on the border just looking for

00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:31.640
the threats, it's already behind us. So for me

00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:33.339
and what we've done in Australia and what we're

00:23:33.339 --> 00:23:35.039
trying to do in other countries as well across

00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:38.000
the globe with our customers is to start to create

00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:42.420
networks of capability. cost effectively, affordably

00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:45.440
and scalable that allow entire nations to connect

00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.880
their different data points together so that

00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.920
what might be happening in northern Norway that

00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:53.359
may be undetected or it may be happening but

00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:55.259
we can't share the data at the moment, we should

00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:57.740
be able to connect absolutely not just even within

00:23:57.740 --> 00:23:59.599
Norway but across all the other Eastern European

00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.559
countries that border Eastern Europe to say is

00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:05.140
that kind of probing activity in the north or

00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:07.799
in Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania the same thing

00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.039
that we're seeing in Poland. or in Ukraine or

00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:12.660
elsewhere, and then be able to connect the different

00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:14.480
types of threats that may be coming from the

00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.140
same adversary that we need to really understand

00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:19.420
quickly, because it won't take long before some

00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:22.160
of that activity will export to everywhere else.

00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:26.160
Getting away from drones now and kind of heading

00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:27.460
towards what we're going to be talking about

00:24:27.460 --> 00:24:30.019
for the bulk of this conversation, from a human

00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:33.950
perspective. I'm literally reading 1984 at the

00:24:33.950 --> 00:24:36.430
moment, which was written in the 1950s. And I

00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:39.069
swear to God, Orwell could be sitting here today

00:24:39.069 --> 00:24:41.230
writing his book based on what's going on at

00:24:41.230 --> 00:24:43.609
the moment. To the point where he even alludes

00:24:43.609 --> 00:24:46.690
to the fact that apart from some, in theory,

00:24:46.809 --> 00:24:49.430
special operations teams supposedly doing things,

00:24:49.430 --> 00:24:52.670
that the war is pretty much being fought autonomously.

00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:57.380
And, you know, the goal is to basically affect

00:24:57.380 --> 00:25:00.079
resources and keep the populace to a certain

00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.339
level of obedience so that they don't question

00:25:03.339 --> 00:25:05.240
the powers that be. So anyway, you know, wherever

00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.140
you are, whatever you lean politically, there's

00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:10.980
a lot of truth in that. How, with so many lessons

00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:14.880
in history... A, do we not learn our lesson?

00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:17.480
And B, how do we turn this around so that humanity

00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:19.759
is not constantly at war with each other? I know

00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.839
we're talking this super macro conversation,

00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:24.779
but ultimately we were all little children that

00:25:24.779 --> 00:25:27.339
ran around chasing a ball once. We were all blank

00:25:27.339 --> 00:25:30.039
canvases at one point. Yeah, who didn't see color,

00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.259
who didn't see religion, who didn't see any of

00:25:32.259 --> 00:25:34.940
those things that we learn over time. I mean,

00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:40.170
I've been in so many situations where... I grew

00:25:40.170 --> 00:25:42.630
up not in a religious household, but I was a

00:25:42.630 --> 00:25:45.890
singer in a cathedral choir. So you're just immersed

00:25:45.890 --> 00:25:48.410
in religion from an early age because you were

00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:50.089
singing in a choir and it was in a big cathedral

00:25:50.089 --> 00:25:53.630
and everything else. I'm now, I wouldn't say

00:25:53.630 --> 00:25:55.250
I'm religious at all. I'm more spiritual and

00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:57.869
religious because I've seen so many unpleasant

00:25:57.869 --> 00:26:00.670
scenarios around the world that I've helped try

00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:04.089
and solve or be part of the cleanup or maybe

00:26:04.089 --> 00:26:06.119
some would say been part of the problem. that

00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.539
has been for many religious based or religion

00:26:08.539 --> 00:26:12.640
based um and i find it frustrating that for me

00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:15.180
it's all about respect that i think the challenge

00:26:15.180 --> 00:26:18.039
is that we and maybe the digital world is not

00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:20.140
helping here that it's very easy to say something

00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:23.220
unpleasant or be disrespectful and rude or just

00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:25.380
downright mean because you don't ever have to

00:26:25.380 --> 00:26:28.099
confront that person in real life i know i don't

00:26:28.099 --> 00:26:30.019
think the world was necessarily a kind of place

00:26:30.019 --> 00:26:31.539
in the past but it certainly doesn't feel like

00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:33.640
it's going in the right direction for us to be

00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.339
more tolerant or respectful of other people's

00:26:36.339 --> 00:26:38.720
views. You know, there are some things that I

00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:40.559
wouldn't necessarily want to have rammed down

00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.099
my throat day to day in the country or the places

00:26:44.099 --> 00:26:46.900
that I live. But I'm absolutely respectful that

00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:48.920
everyone has a right, unless they're doing something

00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.279
illegal or dangerous that will harm others, that

00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.240
people should have the right to be able to express

00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.839
how they want to. And I think my biggest worry

00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:00.460
is that we as a global society are very quick

00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:03.119
to pick sides and whoever is not on your side

00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.900
becomes the enemy. And that's very, very dangerous,

00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:09.000
I think, not just politically, but even for communities.

00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:12.920
And it won't lead to us being more sort of cohesive

00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.539
as a group. And that's partly, you know, with

00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:17.220
the book that I talk a lot about the community

00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:20.440
aspects and people finding their tribe. It doesn't

00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:22.380
matter what your tribe is, but it's really important.

00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:27.940
We as humans, our DNA is to be part of a group,

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.920
whatever the group might be. And so for people

00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.839
to feel alone, isolated, attacked and targeted

00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.190
is not... It's clearly damaging for individuals

00:27:36.190 --> 00:27:39.089
and for groups that feel oppressed. So, you know,

00:27:39.089 --> 00:27:41.470
we just, maybe it's a slightly simplistic, naive

00:27:41.470 --> 00:27:44.230
view, but I just wish people could accept that

00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:47.089
others have different views and just live and

00:27:47.089 --> 00:27:51.109
let live. I've said this on here many, many times.

00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:53.170
You know, I'm exactly like you. Grew up in the

00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:55.789
Church of England, went to a C of E school, was

00:27:55.789 --> 00:27:58.109
a choir boy for a heartbeat, not to the level

00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:01.069
that you were. And so I was exposed to Christianity.

00:28:01.710 --> 00:28:04.450
And kind of like yourself, I, as a very young

00:28:04.450 --> 00:28:06.410
boy, took a step back and went, well, yeah, but

00:28:06.410 --> 00:28:09.130
these are kind of obvious, you know, things that

00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:11.589
were being taught. And so when I, you know, had

00:28:11.589 --> 00:28:14.309
friends that were then Sikh and, you know, Muslim

00:28:14.309 --> 00:28:16.890
and all these other cultures, again, like I'm

00:28:16.890 --> 00:28:19.089
seeing, I'm hanging around, hopefully, with people

00:28:19.089 --> 00:28:21.589
I perceive as nice people. So we have the same

00:28:21.589 --> 00:28:24.230
tenets. We have the same philosophies. And I

00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:26.190
think that this ancient wisdom, whether it's

00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:28.869
in a religious perspective or whether it's, you

00:28:28.869 --> 00:28:31.539
know, Greek or Roman or whatever it is. Ultimately,

00:28:31.539 --> 00:28:34.519
you could sum it up and don't be a dick. That's

00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:36.900
pretty much what they're all telling us. So to

00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:39.759
then split hairs about what your religion says

00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.019
and there's a lake of fire or this many virgins

00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:45.779
or whatever the thing is, I think now you're

00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:48.380
missing the common denominator, which is the

00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:51.240
love and empathy and community and kindness and

00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:54.359
service, the things a lot of us in uniform embody

00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:57.759
at our core. This is what I'm seeing is if we

00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.819
can just refine that true north that a lot of

00:29:00.819 --> 00:29:03.519
these holy texts do talk about. I would argue

00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:06.619
that the Bible, for example, in my very white

00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:09.240
belt perspective, the Old Testament is like a

00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:11.920
cautionary tale, like an eye for an eye doesn't

00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.160
work. The New Testament is love, kindness, turn

00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.319
the other cheek. We tried the war thing. It was

00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.359
shit. So try the other thing instead. So I wish

00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:24.319
that we could just see the universal messages

00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.299
of humanity rather than this kind of, you know,

00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.460
pigeonholing of religious doctrine. And if you

00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:32.420
don't believe exactly what I believe, then as

00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:35.319
you said, you're my enemy. Yeah, I mean, one

00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:38.779
of my favorite videos in the world ever, and

00:29:38.779 --> 00:29:40.440
I'm sure you've seen it, is the kids that they

00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:43.779
put together, whether it's a... a black child

00:29:43.779 --> 00:29:47.160
with an Asian child or a disabled child with,

00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:48.880
you know, whatever it may be, and said, like,

00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:51.279
what makes you different? And they're literally

00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.400
pointing out and going, he doesn't like tomatoes.

00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:56.500
You know, they just don't think of the things

00:29:56.500 --> 00:29:58.180
that we automatically as adults go, well, that

00:29:58.180 --> 00:29:59.920
child's disabled or that child's a different

00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.920
ethnicity. It's like, yeah, you know, his mum

00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:04.700
lives on the top of the hill and we live in town.

00:30:04.779 --> 00:30:06.640
It's a very different way of approaching the

00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.259
world, which I kind of wish we could all go back

00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:11.859
to. Well, I literally made a post the other day

00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:15.440
because I realized that our generation... Are

00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:17.579
you still Gen X? Are you within that parameter?

00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.039
I don't know what I am. What's Gen X? When were

00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:23.500
you born? Maybe that puts me in a Gen. I don't

00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:25.900
know what my Gen is. When were you born? What

00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:31.220
year? 73. 83? 73. 73. Okay. So we're the same

00:30:31.220 --> 00:30:32.440
because you just look a lot younger than me.

00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:33.500
So that's why I was thinking you were younger.

00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:38.190
So we are... The Gen X, technically. But I mean,

00:30:38.230 --> 00:30:40.930
regardless, I was reflecting on the way that

00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:43.950
we were raised in England. We had John Craven's

00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:46.470
news round. So we were told about what was happening

00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:49.049
around the world in a non -political way through

00:30:49.049 --> 00:30:52.710
a child's lens. We had Blue Peter, where we were

00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:54.910
constantly encouraged to do jumble sales and

00:30:54.910 --> 00:30:57.789
all kinds of things to raise money for starvation

00:30:57.789 --> 00:31:00.140
in Ethiopia. And the people that are affected

00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:03.460
in Rwanda. And so you have this community and

00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:05.539
kindness and compassion. Now in America, they

00:31:05.539 --> 00:31:08.440
had Mr. Rogers. They had Bob Ross. So again,

00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.339
our generation was raised with kindness, comic

00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:15.039
relief, live aid. It was infused in our upbringing.

00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.200
And so shame on us for having so much. Kids don't

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.380
have that these days. It's very divisive and

00:31:21.380 --> 00:31:24.200
very narcissistic and a lot of stuff. We had

00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:27.559
this message of kindness and compassion. in our

00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:30.059
children's television and now you have people

00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:32.319
of our age that are acting you know the way they

00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.799
are in some areas so i was pointing this out

00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.980
if our generation can't be kind and compassionate

00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:40.720
to each other with the upbringing and the examples

00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:44.160
that we had what chance do the younger generations

00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.559
have yeah and i think when they see certainly

00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:49.079
you know without making a political statement

00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.039
but when they see politicians say and do things

00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.009
that are just just not great on any level just

00:31:56.009 --> 00:31:59.349
not okay to say, regardless of your status or

00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:01.269
role, after the death of somebody or whatever,

00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:04.789
it's just, if there are no boundaries, then where

00:32:04.789 --> 00:32:06.789
are people going to learn what right looks like?

00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:13.089
If your loyalty is towards a human being and

00:32:13.089 --> 00:32:16.130
the political party versus the wellbeing of your

00:32:16.130 --> 00:32:19.220
country, then you have a problem. I think it's

00:32:19.220 --> 00:32:21.740
that simple. And this is what we see here. Like

00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:25.940
the die on your sword for a certain left or right

00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:28.299
leaning versus taking a step back and going,

00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.440
well, have either of these two groups actually

00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:33.700
made our country healthier, happier, safer? Then

00:32:33.700 --> 00:32:35.740
I think that's the question we have to ask. And

00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:37.400
if fundamentally you can look in the mirror and

00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:39.079
say, oh, yeah, this person is the second coming

00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:42.119
of Christ, good on you. Carry on believing. If

00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.519
they're not a good person, then maybe, maybe,

00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:46.880
just maybe we need to question the way we even

00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.319
choose these people in the first place. all right

00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.559
well then you and i did the interview and then

00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:57.619
two years ago i went on 7x so i went around the

00:32:57.619 --> 00:33:00.019
world with a bunch of navy seals and delta guys

00:33:00.019 --> 00:33:03.859
and elite triathletes and they did they because

00:33:03.859 --> 00:33:07.940
i was support staff um seven marathons ideally

00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:10.819
seven skydives and base jumps and then an immersion

00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:13.119
on seven continents in seven days and it was

00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:15.869
supposed to be a kind of observational Study

00:33:15.869 --> 00:33:18.549
on how do you prepare for someone for something

00:33:18.549 --> 00:33:21.470
that would somewhat mirror a military deployment

00:33:21.470 --> 00:33:24.910
or military op, you know, a wildland fire, etc.

00:33:25.509 --> 00:33:27.750
Beat them down during this process. And then

00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:30.630
how can we kind of rehab them after creation

00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:32.710
of a manual, which, by the way, the manual and

00:33:32.710 --> 00:33:36.130
documentary, we just had a premiere last week.

00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:38.609
I think it was just over a week ago. So those

00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:40.690
will be coming finally after two years. Anyway,

00:33:40.750 --> 00:33:44.400
so we land in London. go to Hyde Park, which

00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.240
is where the runners were, and that's where you

00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.579
and I met. So just kind of as a side note, talk

00:33:49.579 --> 00:33:51.259
to me about your perspective of that experience.

00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.759
I mean, I obviously didn't have much to do with

00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:56.579
it other than I wanted to support if I could

00:33:56.579 --> 00:33:59.559
and be there to see the team. I don't know what

00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:01.559
stop that would have been, how far into it was

00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:06.339
the UK leg. We had, oh my goodness, I think we

00:34:06.339 --> 00:34:08.900
had Columbia then Dallas. So it was day five.

00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:14.469
I was so freaking tired by that point. I mean,

00:34:14.489 --> 00:34:17.070
yeah, given that you were all doing so much,

00:34:17.170 --> 00:34:20.389
running and all the other stupid things, I ended

00:34:20.389 --> 00:34:22.630
up, I wouldn't say accidentally, but I did a

00:34:22.630 --> 00:34:25.610
half marathon with the team just because I felt

00:34:25.610 --> 00:34:27.769
like I should do something. So I wasn't completely

00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:30.610
lazy and idle. But it was a really good atmosphere.

00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:32.210
And the team there, I mean, I caught up with

00:34:32.210 --> 00:34:33.789
people I'd not seen for a very, very long time,

00:34:33.849 --> 00:34:37.090
which was great. And you had the bomb disposal

00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:41.019
person, was it Katie? Katie, yeah, Katie Hernandez,

00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:44.239
yeah. We did her mile in the bomb disposal suit,

00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:46.300
which I helped support. So, you know, it was

00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:48.199
a great community. And like I said, I played

00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:50.159
no real part in it other than wanting to be a

00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.480
supporter and bringing a charity along that you

00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:56.219
very kindly supported in the form of Royal British

00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:59.619
Veterans Enterprise, as it now is called. So

00:34:59.619 --> 00:35:01.579
speaking of that, what made them change? So they

00:35:01.579 --> 00:35:04.739
were RBLI. Now, as you mentioned, they're RBVE.

00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.900
What was the reason for the change? There was...

00:35:09.210 --> 00:35:11.789
Quite a lot of confusion in the charity sector,

00:35:11.889 --> 00:35:14.050
I'm sure you're very aware, is quite congested.

00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:16.150
And in the UK, it's no different from other parts

00:35:16.150 --> 00:35:18.869
of the world. And there is another charity with

00:35:18.869 --> 00:35:23.409
a similar name, who is also a similar age, set

00:35:23.409 --> 00:35:26.949
up just after the First World War. And that was

00:35:26.949 --> 00:35:29.050
causing unnecessary friction and confusion for

00:35:29.050 --> 00:35:33.769
all sorts of reasons. And the role of the charity

00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:36.050
had kind of not moved on, but they really...

00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:40.110
have developed a very kind of enterprising way

00:35:40.110 --> 00:35:43.010
of working where unlike a lot of charities that

00:35:43.010 --> 00:35:45.389
just um i'll not say just but a lot of charities

00:35:45.389 --> 00:35:49.550
that um give money and support to the beneficiaries

00:35:49.550 --> 00:35:53.130
uh in the form of grants or courses or whatever

00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:56.869
um rbv does that as well but it also has a really

00:35:56.869 --> 00:36:01.179
clever um add -on to the charity which is a um

00:36:01.179 --> 00:36:03.300
technically for profit but it's a it's a it's

00:36:03.300 --> 00:36:05.599
a manufacturing facility that makes things um

00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:08.239
everything from road signs from freeways and

00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:11.739
railways and they they just make make stuff and

00:36:11.739 --> 00:36:14.619
it's all staffed by by veterans and what makes

00:36:14.619 --> 00:36:17.119
it different though is that if you were a veteran

00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:18.719
who might be struggling and you want to get back

00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:20.900
into work to find your tribe and you know but

00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:23.000
you don't feel like you're yet able to do a full

00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.460
40 -hour week or whatever it may be They have

00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:28.519
the ability, because it's not trying to just

00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:30.739
make profit for profit's sake, that they will

00:36:30.739 --> 00:36:33.400
allow young James Gearing, who's coming out of

00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:36.599
a dark period where he's got maybe PTSD or he

00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:38.840
became homeless because of a family breakdown

00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:41.900
or something happened. But you want to just start

00:36:41.900 --> 00:36:43.760
being part of something. They have the ability

00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:46.340
to say, James, don't worry. You can do two hours

00:36:46.340 --> 00:36:48.900
a week until you feel able to go up. No, you

00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:50.619
would not get that in any other place if you

00:36:50.619 --> 00:36:53.179
want to be employed. That's just one example

00:36:53.179 --> 00:36:55.199
of this sort of enterprising nature of the way

00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.400
that they think about the solutions and helping

00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.219
people in novel ways to get back on track so

00:37:00.219 --> 00:37:03.699
that they can then thrive and grow. So it just

00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:06.719
felt like it was the right time. And we've got

00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.619
a brilliant logo, amazing artist who gave us

00:37:09.619 --> 00:37:11.679
the Tommy. silhouette that you've seen so we

00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.280
kept the tommy and the colors and an rbve launched

00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.420
at the house of lords uh in london um a month

00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:20.679
or so ago and uh and this is the start of the

00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:23.119
next phase of the journey so i'm excited to continue

00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:24.940
being an ambassador for them and supporting them

00:37:24.940 --> 00:37:27.960
um and a third of well quite a lot of the proceeds

00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:29.559
of the book are going to be going to to that

00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:33.719
charity i've still got my tommy that you guys

00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:35.739
gave me on my bookshelf behind me but it was

00:37:35.739 --> 00:37:38.710
funny i just had a annual kind of hearing checkup

00:37:38.710 --> 00:37:41.829
um and there was actually a tommy sticker on

00:37:41.829 --> 00:37:44.469
the perspex here in ocala florida now i don't

00:37:44.469 --> 00:37:46.110
know where it came from but it was it was your

00:37:46.110 --> 00:37:48.250
tommy so it was it was funny just caught my other

00:37:48.250 --> 00:37:52.289
day we've gone global excellent yep all right

00:37:52.289 --> 00:37:54.050
well then speaking of that so you and i you know

00:37:54.050 --> 00:37:56.489
we're in hyde park um since then obviously you

00:37:56.489 --> 00:37:59.329
told me that you were developing the book let's

00:37:59.329 --> 00:38:02.119
talk about mindful soldier Where did the idea

00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:04.639
even come from? And then talk to me about your

00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:06.599
journey writing with your partner, Jessica Miller.

00:38:07.380 --> 00:38:11.300
So I should say I'm an accidental or a reluctant

00:38:11.300 --> 00:38:13.679
author. I didn't mean to write a book. I genuinely

00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.480
had no plans to ever write a book. It's just

00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.639
not really what I thought about doing. And the

00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.699
idea about writing about anything personal seemed

00:38:21.699 --> 00:38:24.440
a bit indulgent. And I didn't know quite why

00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:27.079
it would be. It just didn't feel right, honestly.

00:38:27.500 --> 00:38:31.360
But I had enough friends who... bullied me into

00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:34.739
saying that you've got so many random and arguably

00:38:34.739 --> 00:38:37.760
quite extreme examples of how you've come through

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.780
various challenges in life and demonstrated resilience

00:38:40.780 --> 00:38:43.420
and grit and all those things. I've been lucky

00:38:43.420 --> 00:38:46.119
to have been in a number of elite teams, whether

00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:49.500
in sporting, competing internationally or in

00:38:49.500 --> 00:38:52.559
other walks of life. And they said, if you could

00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.039
just capture some of those things that have helped

00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.059
you get through those challenging, extreme experiences.

00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:01.719
we think collectively that this would be of value

00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:05.300
to other people. And because I am really driven

00:39:05.300 --> 00:39:06.940
by, particularly since I retired from military

00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:09.860
active duty service, about trying to give back,

00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:11.960
not just to the military community, but to anybody

00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:14.500
that might be struggling. And I'm always a big

00:39:14.500 --> 00:39:16.980
proponent of making sure we don't forget the

00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.440
emergency services community, you know, particularly

00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.980
in America, but globally, I think military veterans

00:39:21.980 --> 00:39:24.679
are put on a pedestal and some of that is obviously

00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:30.909
welcome. Relevant and right to do, but I always

00:39:30.909 --> 00:39:33.269
try to make the point that many military people,

00:39:33.369 --> 00:39:36.110
a vast majority of military veterans have never

00:39:36.110 --> 00:39:38.510
seen combat, would never need to be in combat,

00:39:38.670 --> 00:39:41.550
and therefore are less likely to have been exposed

00:39:41.550 --> 00:39:44.369
to trauma. Whereas a young female paramedic,

00:39:44.369 --> 00:39:47.269
in the first month of her job after finishing

00:39:47.269 --> 00:39:49.349
training, she might be cutting babies out of

00:39:49.349 --> 00:39:51.550
cars on the freeway and attending house fires.

00:39:51.610 --> 00:39:54.969
There may be more trauma in a month than a fire

00:39:54.969 --> 00:39:58.639
service. paramedic or whoever firefighter may

00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.179
experience. So I wanted to make sure that we,

00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:04.159
anybody that serves is supported. So that's kind

00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.320
of what, what drives me generally. So I happened

00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.599
to be between jobs. I was lucky enough to get

00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:12.360
a bit of time where I was still getting paid

00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.539
while I moved from one company to another back

00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.840
in, I guess, 2021, it was sort of during COVID

00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.699
2020, 2021. And that was the time that I thought

00:40:21.699 --> 00:40:24.179
if I'm going to do it. this is the window. I

00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:26.380
probably wouldn't take six months out of my life

00:40:26.380 --> 00:40:29.280
to do this unless I didn't have something else

00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.500
that I was doing. So that was kind of my window,

00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:34.079
which was the first problem because there was

00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.219
so much self -induced pressure. I knew that my

00:40:36.219 --> 00:40:39.039
new job was starting on this date. And therefore

00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.440
I stupidly quite early on, maybe sensibly, maybe

00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:43.579
stupidly worked out that if I was going to get

00:40:43.579 --> 00:40:45.880
80 ,000 words, which I thought was what I should

00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.679
be targeting. maximum, that I would need to write

00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:50.659
X thousand words a day. And there were some days

00:40:50.659 --> 00:40:52.760
where I just couldn't string two sentences together.

00:40:53.219 --> 00:40:55.400
It was just like, I hate this. I really hate

00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:57.760
this. So I didn't enjoy the process, if I'm brutally

00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:01.219
honest, and I didn't do it as I'm led to believe

00:41:01.219 --> 00:41:02.599
you're supposed to do. You're supposed to find

00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.400
yourself an agent, then you do a pitch and you

00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:06.739
maybe write a couple of chapters. I mean, you're

00:41:06.739 --> 00:41:08.360
an author, you know how it's supposed to be done

00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:11.820
properly. I've never done this before. So I just

00:41:11.820 --> 00:41:14.099
sort of made it up as I went along, just dumped

00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:17.000
all my things on a page. tried to work out some

00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:18.960
themes. Then I found myself an agent and said

00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.599
like, here's kind of a book maybe. And the first

00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:23.519
agent thought it was great, said don't change

00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:25.860
anything, but then we didn't get any deals. So

00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:28.199
ended up switching up and going to a different

00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.139
agent, had a bit more advice about how to package

00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:31.500
stuff. And we worked out there's probably about

00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:34.940
two books worth of content in there. And if we

00:41:34.940 --> 00:41:37.599
wanted it to be a useful book and not be seen

00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.539
as a memoir kind of thing, which I just wasn't

00:41:39.539 --> 00:41:43.030
cool with, then actually getting some... sort

00:41:43.030 --> 00:41:44.510
of proper academic, well, not necessarily academic,

00:41:44.530 --> 00:41:47.570
but some scientific rigor around what actually

00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:50.789
is going on in the brain, it might be more useful

00:41:50.789 --> 00:41:52.889
to more people, because I wanted this to be broadly

00:41:52.889 --> 00:41:55.489
applicable, not just to the veterans or military

00:41:55.489 --> 00:41:57.530
minded people that want to hear some sort of

00:41:57.530 --> 00:42:00.219
war stories of running around getting shot. So

00:42:00.219 --> 00:42:04.960
I managed to get Jess to agree to support the

00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.039
project. And she's a world renowned neuropsychologist

00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:11.179
with a focus primarily in her career on policing

00:42:11.179 --> 00:42:13.679
trauma. So she knows emergency services really,

00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.780
really well and is written extensively on these

00:42:16.780 --> 00:42:19.380
topics. And so what we ended up doing is that

00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:21.719
I take of the 12 chapters, they're kind of quite

00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:23.739
12 distinct themes, whether it's childhood trauma,

00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:26.340
relationship breakdowns, getting out of your

00:42:26.340 --> 00:42:30.880
comfort zone, the fear of failure. loss basically

00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:33.139
you know relationship loss or loss of a loved

00:42:33.139 --> 00:42:35.380
one um power of community and a bunch of other

00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:38.219
things in between um and then she takes my ramblings

00:42:38.219 --> 00:42:41.119
and then then sort of says right this is what's

00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:43.800
actually going on in the brain in in layman's

00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:46.019
terms to say this is why that kind of thing is

00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:47.980
hard if you've had a relationship breakdown or

00:42:47.980 --> 00:42:50.260
you've lost somebody or you've lost your identity

00:42:50.260 --> 00:42:52.099
or changed jobs and you're struggling this is

00:42:52.099 --> 00:42:53.739
why it's hard because this is what the brain

00:42:53.739 --> 00:42:57.030
is trying to do to process that experience And

00:42:57.030 --> 00:42:59.150
then we give some practical tips and advice and

00:42:59.150 --> 00:43:01.369
exercises on how if you are going through that

00:43:01.369 --> 00:43:03.250
kind of thing and you're struggling to build

00:43:03.250 --> 00:43:05.010
your resilience or get through something that

00:43:05.010 --> 00:43:07.289
these might help you do that. So that's kind

00:43:07.289 --> 00:43:13.289
of what happened. We found a publisher who took

00:43:13.289 --> 00:43:15.789
it. And I know you know this, but for your audience,

00:43:15.829 --> 00:43:19.460
then classic. I had to get. government approval

00:43:19.460 --> 00:43:22.940
to publish just because of having served. I wanted

00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:24.800
to do it properly and make sure that I had support

00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.300
from my sort of old employer, as it were. And

00:43:28.300 --> 00:43:30.219
then no sooner had we got the clearance to publish,

00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.139
the publisher went bust. It went into administration.

00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:35.099
It was like, you could not make this up. I just

00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:38.139
was so frustrated. We'd already lost a year waiting

00:43:38.139 --> 00:43:39.739
for that approval anyway. So it should have come

00:43:39.739 --> 00:43:41.719
out January last year. It's now going to be January

00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:48.119
26. But they went bust. And we thought we'd still

00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:49.420
get taken forward because they were setting up

00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:51.400
a new company the following day, which we thought,

00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:53.360
great, although the alarm bell should have rung

00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:55.380
because it was the same people that were basically

00:43:55.380 --> 00:43:57.079
setting up the new company, which happens a lot,

00:43:57.139 --> 00:44:00.940
I'm now led to believe. But they canceled the

00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:03.199
book, it turns out, because they thought that

00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:04.840
all of the pre -sales we'd had, and there were

00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:06.920
many tens of thousands of dollars worth of pre

00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.619
-sales, they thought that we owed that or that

00:44:09.619 --> 00:44:11.159
they would have owed that to the charities that

00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.940
I was supporting, which again should have been

00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:16.599
an absolute... red flag like the fact that they

00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:18.760
were willing because they thought they owed a

00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.440
charity money and thought they therefore could

00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.960
go bankrupt and not pay it and then move on clean

00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.360
and start again but i was quite desperate at

00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.699
this stage to not lose the deal because i hadn't

00:44:27.699 --> 00:44:31.059
had um lots of offers um because basically when

00:44:31.059 --> 00:44:32.519
i first went to the publishers it didn't really

00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:33.940
know what it was going to be the book was still

00:44:33.940 --> 00:44:37.019
a bit all over the place so um they agreed to

00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:39.769
take it again and stick to the same timeline.

00:44:39.909 --> 00:44:41.710
I thought, okay, fine, we've survived. And then

00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:45.929
they went bust again. So it's quite a special

00:44:45.929 --> 00:44:50.090
team to have been able to go into administration

00:44:50.090 --> 00:44:53.389
twice in quick succession. But as it turned out,

00:44:53.489 --> 00:44:56.130
although I freaked out at the time that it was

00:44:56.130 --> 00:44:57.929
all going to unravel and I'd let all these people

00:44:57.929 --> 00:45:00.730
down who'd bought books in the past and I couldn't

00:45:00.730 --> 00:45:02.570
repay them and all that sort of stuff, that really

00:45:02.570 --> 00:45:05.750
bothered me. We ended up... It couldn't could

00:45:05.750 --> 00:45:07.349
not have been better. We ended up going back

00:45:07.349 --> 00:45:10.789
to the market. And this time with a properly

00:45:10.789 --> 00:45:13.190
finished book, that was a real thing that, you

00:45:13.190 --> 00:45:16.590
know, I think I'm pretty proud of. There was

00:45:16.590 --> 00:45:19.090
a bit of a bidding war happened between two much

00:45:19.090 --> 00:45:21.150
bigger, more established, proper publishers.

00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:24.539
And so we ended up going with a publisher called

00:45:24.539 --> 00:45:26.920
Quercus, part of the Hachette Group and John

00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:29.360
Murray Group. So a big international organization.

00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:32.280
But this is a kind of a small team within a bigger

00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:33.940
org so they can move quickly. And they were just

00:45:33.940 --> 00:45:36.340
absolutely brilliant. And I was fairly demanding,

00:45:36.500 --> 00:45:38.980
which those who know me wouldn't be surprised

00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:42.340
by that. But my demands were that we stick to

00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:44.480
the same publishing schedule because I didn't

00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.639
want to lose another period of time. So it's

00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:48.579
going to come out in January, as I said, and

00:45:48.579 --> 00:45:51.679
that they had to honor. the original orders,

00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:54.400
which they didn't have to do at all. But they

00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:56.800
said, no, we can see that this is not great.

00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:58.880
And I can see how much this bothers you. So we

00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:01.280
will honor all of the pre -orders that were made

00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:03.039
with the previous publisher, which was, it just

00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:04.820
told me everything I needed to do that we'd found

00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:09.000
the right home. And we haven't looked back. So

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.380
we are, I believe the book is literally coming

00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:14.059
off the press tomorrow or the next day, the physical

00:46:14.059 --> 00:46:16.920
copies. So I'll get one to you as soon as I get

00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:20.069
my hands on one so you have one to read. And

00:46:20.069 --> 00:46:22.989
we go live in January, 22nd of Jan in the UK

00:46:22.989 --> 00:46:25.530
and 27th of Jan in the US and the rest of the

00:46:25.530 --> 00:46:28.329
world. And I'm giving 100 % of the profits to

00:46:28.329 --> 00:46:31.889
charity. So this is genuinely, although it's

00:46:31.889 --> 00:46:34.110
my ramblings and my stories, it's not about me

00:46:34.110 --> 00:46:36.349
and it's not for me. I'm only willing to do it

00:46:36.349 --> 00:46:38.550
and I'm only willing to pimp it and promote it

00:46:38.550 --> 00:46:40.690
and everything else because I want to raise as

00:46:40.690 --> 00:46:42.630
much money as I possibly can for these charities

00:46:42.630 --> 00:46:46.039
and help as many people as we can. Amazing. Well,

00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:47.239
there's so many things I want to unpack. But

00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:49.480
while we're on the topic of charities, you talked

00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:54.320
about RBVE. What other charities are you supporting?

00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:57.539
So the other charity, the main one we're supporting

00:46:57.539 --> 00:47:00.659
is Gurkha Welfare Trust. So when I started my

00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:02.719
military career, I joined a unit called the Gurkhas,

00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:07.260
which, for those who aren't familiar, is a longstanding

00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:10.360
tradition regiment in the British Army manned

00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:13.860
by Gurkhas, Nepali soldiers. So all the soldiers

00:47:13.860 --> 00:47:16.719
are from Nepal. And that's been the case in the

00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:20.280
British Army since 1815, when in classic British

00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:22.599
style, we were pushing north from India and came

00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.260
across these troublesome hill people in Nepal

00:47:25.260 --> 00:47:28.219
who were great fighters. And it was a bit of

00:47:28.219 --> 00:47:30.900
a stalemate. So rather than admitting defeat,

00:47:31.079 --> 00:47:33.320
the Brits then signed them up and they've been

00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.719
serving alongside the British Army ever since.

00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:39.300
So, you know, my heritage was in the Gurkhas.

00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.599
And for those who don't know Nepal, it's a...

00:47:44.090 --> 00:47:48.190
a hill mountainous country very very poor um

00:47:48.190 --> 00:47:50.690
people live you know very much a hand -to -mouth

00:47:50.690 --> 00:47:53.730
existence particularly um in the hills where

00:47:53.730 --> 00:47:56.130
there's very few um services and that kind of

00:47:56.130 --> 00:47:58.090
thing and the Gurkha Welfare Trust does incredible

00:47:58.090 --> 00:48:01.300
work to not only disperse the pensions that the

00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:04.599
soldiers and their widows and families can draw,

00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:07.500
but they do projects to build schools and water

00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:09.980
wells and bridges between valleys so that communities

00:48:09.980 --> 00:48:11.980
don't have to walk for days to get to each other.

00:48:12.019 --> 00:48:13.920
They can sort of walk across a bridge, that kind

00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:16.059
of stuff. So it's a really amazing support network.

00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:19.219
And given that they gave me my start in the army

00:48:19.219 --> 00:48:22.739
and Nepal is very close to my heart and they're

00:48:22.739 --> 00:48:25.239
just amazing people, they hopefully will benefit

00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:28.699
from the money we raise. I can't remember if

00:48:28.699 --> 00:48:31.940
I interviewed Nim's Dai before or after we spoke,

00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:35.039
but I know in that conversation, I'm sure when

00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:37.420
you and I spoke, there was that news story a

00:48:37.420 --> 00:48:40.380
few years ago where the Gurkhas weren't getting

00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:42.900
the pension that, you know, an equal British

00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:45.579
person would be entitled to. Has that been resolved?

00:48:45.780 --> 00:48:49.039
Has that improved? I mean, it was like many things

00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:51.750
in the media. It wasn't. as as simple as it sounded

00:48:51.750 --> 00:48:54.349
um you know the headline was that they're not

00:48:54.349 --> 00:48:56.710
treated the same as the brits and many of them

00:48:56.710 --> 00:48:59.389
don't get pensions the reality at the time was

00:48:59.389 --> 00:49:01.769
that if you were a british soldier you would

00:49:01.769 --> 00:49:03.849
need to serve 22 years to get a full pension

00:49:03.849 --> 00:49:06.570
and many of the gurkhas would be retired after

00:49:06.570 --> 00:49:08.489
15 years because that was just the way that it

00:49:08.489 --> 00:49:10.630
worked if you didn't promote then you would leave

00:49:10.630 --> 00:49:13.710
after 15. so if you've been a brit you also wouldn't

00:49:13.710 --> 00:49:15.690
get a pension so it wasn't sort of apples for

00:49:15.690 --> 00:49:18.469
apples. But a lot of work has been done by many

00:49:18.469 --> 00:49:20.030
people over the years to make sure that there

00:49:20.030 --> 00:49:24.489
is parity, the ability for families to stay and

00:49:24.489 --> 00:49:26.630
settle in the UK after they've served 10, 15,

00:49:26.670 --> 00:49:29.010
20 years in the British Army, making them go

00:49:29.010 --> 00:49:31.369
back to Nepal and reapply for residency in the

00:49:31.369 --> 00:49:35.409
UK was clearly not fair, given that we allow

00:49:35.409 --> 00:49:38.090
others to come in with far fewer connections

00:49:38.090 --> 00:49:40.510
to the country. So it's moving in the right direction.

00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:42.150
There will always be people, I'm sure, who are

00:49:42.150 --> 00:49:44.139
upset that they didn't get. what they felt they

00:49:44.139 --> 00:49:46.659
were entitled to. But, you know, certainly the

00:49:46.659 --> 00:49:49.179
brigade of Gurkhas and those who fight for the

00:49:49.179 --> 00:49:50.780
rights and Gurkha Welfare Trust who fight for

00:49:50.780 --> 00:49:52.539
the rights of soldiers and their families are

00:49:52.539 --> 00:49:54.639
doing everything they can to make sure that we

00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:56.119
treat them with the respect and dignity that

00:49:56.119 --> 00:50:00.179
they deserve. Beautiful. Well, speaking of ethics,

00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:03.440
going back to the publisher, this is something

00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:05.880
that I hope, I hope to God when this pendulum

00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:08.670
swings back, I think we're in a really... nasty

00:50:08.670 --> 00:50:11.949
place as far as the division and the negativity

00:50:11.949 --> 00:50:13.969
that's being kind of pumped at the moment. And

00:50:13.969 --> 00:50:15.730
that's, what's beautiful about, you know, this,

00:50:15.849 --> 00:50:19.090
this Bondi tragedy is a lot of people, unless

00:50:19.090 --> 00:50:21.230
it's just the algorithm that I'm part of, are

00:50:21.230 --> 00:50:24.070
focusing on the heroism, you know, and, and one

00:50:24.070 --> 00:50:26.309
of the, that incredible man that wrestled the

00:50:26.309 --> 00:50:28.730
gun from one of the terrorist arms was, it was

00:50:28.730 --> 00:50:31.050
a Muslim man. Okay. So then we've, it's, again,

00:50:31.210 --> 00:50:32.909
we're getting away from these pigeonholes. You've

00:50:32.909 --> 00:50:34.670
got people with mental health problems that I

00:50:34.670 --> 00:50:37.219
think that they're going to, you know, create

00:50:37.219 --> 00:50:39.340
some jihad. And then you've got these incredible

00:50:39.340 --> 00:50:42.039
good Samaritans of all walks of life that, you

00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:43.559
know, some of them, it costs their life. I just

00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.579
saw an older couple that tried to wrestle and

00:50:45.579 --> 00:50:49.199
they ended up both getting killed. So, you know,

00:50:49.219 --> 00:50:51.559
I think that when we swing back in the business

00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:55.400
side too, I feel like where there's a lot of

00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:57.559
value now are the social businesses, whether

00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:00.960
they are giving a portion of proceeds to you

00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:03.059
know, some sort of charity where I'm obviously

00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:04.719
with what you're talking about, it's all going

00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:08.400
to charity, but even like a business that's set

00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:11.139
up to still make money, I think that that social

00:51:11.139 --> 00:51:13.460
business model is going to be what we see next.

00:51:13.659 --> 00:51:16.059
And then comparing that with, as you just alluded

00:51:16.059 --> 00:51:19.780
to, some of the incredibly selfish nastiness

00:51:19.780 --> 00:51:22.420
that we see in some of these corporations. So

00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:25.659
putting your kind of business hat on, what is

00:51:25.659 --> 00:51:28.840
the future? of business? And do you feel like

00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:31.880
now we're starting to see some of these horrendous

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.780
practices and there will be a call for more ethical

00:51:35.780 --> 00:51:37.599
businesses and they'll be the ones that become

00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:40.500
successful? I would like to say yes, but I don't

00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:43.400
believe it. I think there'll be, I believe, you

00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:45.500
know, from what I read anyway, whichever the

00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:47.860
gen is, and I shouldn't be better at these gens,

00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:51.159
gen whatever, young adults now, whatever that

00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:55.139
is. From what I read, and again, my algorithms

00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:57.300
may present stuff that may be not fully accurate.

00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:00.719
But what I hear is that the younger sort of young

00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:03.940
adult generation now give a or are far willing

00:52:03.940 --> 00:52:07.400
or do practically give far more of their salary

00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.539
to good causes or to charity than ever before.

00:52:10.860 --> 00:52:13.400
So I think I wouldn't say necessarily it's a

00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:15.739
pendulum swing, but it seems like there is already

00:52:15.739 --> 00:52:20.079
a sign that generationally people realize that

00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:22.239
it's gone too far one way and it's all about

00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:24.710
making money. you know everyone else can go hang

00:52:24.710 --> 00:52:27.650
as long as i make my cut um and that people are

00:52:27.650 --> 00:52:30.869
willing at least a portion of their time or money

00:52:30.869 --> 00:52:33.389
or estate or whatever it may be to be given to

00:52:33.389 --> 00:52:36.710
other causes or think about life outside their

00:52:36.710 --> 00:52:38.590
own bubble their own instagram group or whatever

00:52:38.590 --> 00:52:40.949
it may be i think in terms of business though

00:52:40.949 --> 00:52:44.309
business is business and large corporations answer

00:52:44.309 --> 00:52:46.530
to their shareholders and that will always be

00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:48.639
Not necessarily the excuse, that will always

00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:50.360
be the driver that they're trying to, you know,

00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:52.480
increase the value of the business to be able

00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.719
to reward the shareholders. And that's just how

00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:57.099
business works. But I would like to think that

00:52:57.099 --> 00:53:01.219
there is a space where we can all support those

00:53:01.219 --> 00:53:03.780
that are doing stuff in a different way that

00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:05.840
might cost us a bit more or it may not be as

00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:07.800
good a business to do. But if it's doing the

00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:10.300
right thing, that's valuable in itself. And I

00:53:10.300 --> 00:53:13.820
certainly would love to be able to do. um more

00:53:13.820 --> 00:53:15.980
in that space i think the challenge though is

00:53:15.980 --> 00:53:18.840
that we as humans are inherently lazy you know

00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:22.500
i don't want to pick a pick a an online retailer

00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:24.900
but i hate the fact that i go to a particular

00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:27.599
online retailer all the time because stuff arrives

00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:30.059
when i need it the next day or even the same

00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:32.980
day sometimes i would love to walk down the local

00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:36.159
street and find a bookshop or a you know whatever

00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:38.780
it might be that sells those things in a similar

00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:40.900
price point and support local business but they

00:53:40.900 --> 00:53:42.880
just don't exist Now, and that's part of the

00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:45.900
problem, right? We are so used to having stuff

00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:47.920
immediately when we need it, whether it's instant

00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:50.820
gratification online with likes or clicks or

00:53:50.820 --> 00:53:53.739
whatever, or to when we receive goods and, you

00:53:53.739 --> 00:53:55.940
know, without much thought potentially about

00:53:55.940 --> 00:53:58.840
how it's got there or who might be abused on

00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:01.579
the way for it to get to me, the conditions of

00:54:01.579 --> 00:54:03.139
the people having to work to make sure it gets

00:54:03.139 --> 00:54:05.880
delivered by 10pm or the next morning or whatever.

00:54:06.019 --> 00:54:08.059
So, and a bit of a long -winded answer, but I'd

00:54:08.059 --> 00:54:10.349
love to say yes, but I think... Business is business,

00:54:10.590 --> 00:54:13.130
but I hope that there is at least an increasing

00:54:13.130 --> 00:54:16.070
appreciation of those businesses that are trying

00:54:16.070 --> 00:54:17.769
to do things differently, whether it's for the

00:54:17.769 --> 00:54:19.969
environment or for other causes that might actually

00:54:19.969 --> 00:54:23.929
make a bigger difference. A conversation I've

00:54:23.929 --> 00:54:25.570
been having recently, and this ties in with the

00:54:25.570 --> 00:54:28.750
book as well, that I kind of had a realization.

00:54:29.369 --> 00:54:31.090
It was actually, I always give credit, there

00:54:31.090 --> 00:54:33.889
was a guy called Said Guru on the Joe Rogan show,

00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:35.849
and they were just talking, I forget even what

00:54:35.849 --> 00:54:38.550
the conversation was. But he was talking about

00:54:38.550 --> 00:54:41.289
that all people are inherently good, I think

00:54:41.289 --> 00:54:42.949
was his point. And he was like, yeah, apart from

00:54:42.949 --> 00:54:45.409
the heads of, I forget what he said, tobacco

00:54:45.409 --> 00:54:47.929
companies or something. And he goes, well, them

00:54:47.929 --> 00:54:51.150
too. And then they just moved on with the conversation.

00:54:51.269 --> 00:54:53.070
But it really stuck with me because I was like,

00:54:53.090 --> 00:54:55.010
I've never thought about that. When we talk about

00:54:55.010 --> 00:54:57.670
mental health, you and I, you're normally thinking

00:54:57.670 --> 00:55:01.030
about the men and women, either side of you,

00:55:01.070 --> 00:55:03.630
the same with me. We're never talking about the

00:55:03.630 --> 00:55:05.769
people at the top of the pyramid in our organizations.

00:55:06.829 --> 00:55:09.690
But if you can sleep at night knowing that your

00:55:09.690 --> 00:55:12.150
tobacco products kill 8 million people annually

00:55:12.150 --> 00:55:16.210
around the planet, or that your opioid created

00:55:16.210 --> 00:55:18.429
the opioid crisis that we have in America that's

00:55:18.429 --> 00:55:21.190
killed millions of people to date, or your weapons

00:55:21.190 --> 00:55:24.329
that your lobbyists are trying to help create

00:55:24.329 --> 00:55:26.469
more conflicts so you can make a lot of money

00:55:26.469 --> 00:55:30.230
selling those, and you sleep well at night, we

00:55:30.230 --> 00:55:33.369
have a mental health problem at the top political,

00:55:33.789 --> 00:55:37.710
CEO, etc. element as well that we are not discussing

00:55:37.710 --> 00:55:40.730
because it should bother you if your products

00:55:40.730 --> 00:55:44.750
cost people's lives they will do it you know

00:55:44.750 --> 00:55:46.690
they'll hold their nose and do it either they

00:55:46.690 --> 00:55:48.250
either they genuinely believe in what they're

00:55:48.250 --> 00:55:49.969
doing and they don't really care about the impact

00:55:49.969 --> 00:55:53.110
or they will be justifying it to themselves i

00:55:53.110 --> 00:55:54.849
would imagine that i can hold my nose for two

00:55:54.849 --> 00:55:56.909
years three years five years the package that

00:55:56.909 --> 00:55:58.570
i'm going to be getting is worth it and then

00:55:58.570 --> 00:56:01.090
i can do something wholesome afterwards um i

00:56:01.090 --> 00:56:03.239
mean it's hard to you can't obviously walk in

00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:05.159
everyone's shoes. But you mentioned opioids.

00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:06.840
I was working for a company once where we were

00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:09.260
approached by one of the biggest offenders in

00:56:09.260 --> 00:56:11.619
that space to see if we could help them be more

00:56:11.619 --> 00:56:14.079
effective in terms of how they did their business.

00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:15.840
And we looked at it and said, yeah, there's plenty

00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:18.340
of ways they could be more effective. We don't

00:56:18.340 --> 00:56:21.559
want them to be because this is already a crisis.

00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:25.460
If we are the company that helps them sell more

00:56:25.460 --> 00:56:28.000
in a faster way to more people, that's not going

00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.599
to be a thing that we want to put on our headstone,

00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:35.059
the thing that we did while we were alive. Absolutely.

00:56:35.059 --> 00:56:36.840
Well, go into the book that I kind of want to

00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:38.559
hit it chronologically as an overview, because

00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:40.579
these are conversations I've had so many times

00:56:40.579 --> 00:56:42.760
with, especially, you know, people in uniform.

00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:46.039
Let's talk firstly, you know, in your conversation

00:56:46.039 --> 00:56:49.579
with Jessica about our population in general.

00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.739
So a lot of people that when they hit an adult

00:56:52.739 --> 00:56:54.579
age, they're like, I want to put on a uniform,

00:56:54.699 --> 00:56:56.280
I want to serve in the military and the first

00:56:56.280 --> 00:57:00.760
responders, etc. What have been some of the conversations

00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:03.960
that you've had as far as the early lives of

00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:07.920
these men and women? Because I think that what

00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:09.920
I've seen and what I've heard from so many people

00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:12.300
is a lot of us do have struggles. Now, that doesn't

00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:14.780
mean it has to be a weakness. If it's addressed

00:57:14.780 --> 00:57:17.099
and worked through, I think it becomes resilience.

00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:19.760
I think it becomes an asset. But if it's pushed

00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:21.880
down, buried and forgotten about, then I think

00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:25.099
it becomes a fracture in our foundation. Yeah,

00:57:25.099 --> 00:57:29.500
I mean, clearly the motivations vary probably

00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:32.840
culturally by country. There's lots of stereotypes

00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:35.639
about why a U .S. soldier is a U .S. soldier

00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:37.739
or why a British Army officer is a British Army

00:57:37.739 --> 00:57:40.539
officer or who becomes a paramedic. And that's

00:57:40.539 --> 00:57:43.280
clearly going to vary. But I think overall, and

00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:45.219
Jess has done the research on this, so I don't

00:57:45.219 --> 00:57:47.619
want to put words in her mouth or speak for her,

00:57:47.659 --> 00:57:49.840
but essentially from my understanding is that.

00:57:50.300 --> 00:57:53.820
Many who go on to serve, as you've identified,

00:57:53.860 --> 00:57:57.619
have struggled in some way or been exposed to

00:57:57.619 --> 00:58:01.920
struggle or challenge in their early years. And

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:04.960
whether that predisposes them to be able to cope

00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:08.179
with the kind of rigors of a role in service

00:58:08.179 --> 00:58:10.800
where you are expected to put the needs of others

00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.179
before your own. Maybe there's something in that.

00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:18.360
I'm not sure. I certainly didn't think of this

00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:20.869
from day one. As a young child that I wanted

00:58:20.869 --> 00:58:22.769
to be in the army, I wasn't thinking about that

00:58:22.769 --> 00:58:25.750
as a career. And even when I did choose to join,

00:58:25.769 --> 00:58:27.449
I only actually meant to join for three years

00:58:27.449 --> 00:58:30.349
as an experience to do good. And then I was going

00:58:30.349 --> 00:58:32.849
to get a proper job. And then 20 whatever years

00:58:32.849 --> 00:58:35.869
later, with time having flown and learning a

00:58:35.869 --> 00:58:38.349
bunch of things, I was a pilot as well as doing

00:58:38.349 --> 00:58:40.670
a bunch of other stuff. So they taught me to

00:58:40.670 --> 00:58:42.070
do a lot of really interesting things in interesting

00:58:42.070 --> 00:58:46.099
places with interesting people. But I never thought

00:58:46.099 --> 00:58:48.199
back to at what point did I suddenly realize

00:58:48.199 --> 00:58:50.679
that service was a thing I wanted. But then when

00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:52.559
I was forced to think about it a little bit in

00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:54.880
the book, when I was writing, if I think back

00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:56.340
to those early days, just being in the choir

00:58:56.340 --> 00:58:58.480
as you were, the fact that you weren't allowed

00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:00.679
to go home until Christmas evening or Easter

00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:02.460
evening or whatever, when the rest of the school

00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:04.639
had been broken up and the school was empty of

00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:06.679
all the other kids for a couple of weeks at the

00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:09.039
end of term until you were allowed to go. From

00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.460
that very early age, it certainly in me inculcated

00:59:11.460 --> 00:59:13.320
that service was just something that you did.

00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:15.619
And it didn't matter that you would rather be

00:59:15.619 --> 00:59:17.780
at home. You had to do your services and you

00:59:17.780 --> 00:59:19.199
had to do your thing and then you could go home

00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:24.000
when they were done. So maybe I'm common to many

00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:26.260
people's views of how this works or not. I don't

00:59:26.260 --> 00:59:29.420
know. But certainly I think Jess has spoken to

00:59:29.420 --> 00:59:32.519
me about those people, not just who have gone

00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:35.219
into uniform, but those who have ended up having

00:59:35.219 --> 00:59:37.760
fairly successful careers or thrived in that

00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:40.719
environment have often been found to be people

00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:43.440
that might have had more turbulence or. less

00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:49.159
stable upbringings? I think this is why it's

00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:52.500
kind of become a realization to me now. We had,

00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:54.579
you know, our generation, obviously, we're unpacking

00:59:54.579 --> 00:59:56.320
this whole mental health conversation, I would

00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:00.079
argue the last 10 years at best. But when you

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:03.099
reflect back now, if we have an understanding

01:00:03.099 --> 01:00:06.139
that a lot of us have had these struggles, to

01:00:06.139 --> 01:00:09.039
have that conversation at the front door, in

01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:12.090
no way stigmatized, but just simply If you're

01:00:12.090 --> 01:00:13.829
towing the line at the moment, there's a good

01:00:13.829 --> 01:00:15.409
chance that there are some things that led you

01:00:15.409 --> 01:00:17.750
this way. And if we can start working through

01:00:17.750 --> 01:00:20.289
them from day one, as we are going to do physical

01:00:20.289 --> 01:00:23.070
training, for example, then we can turn those

01:00:23.070 --> 01:00:25.289
into an absolute asset, a strength. You're going

01:00:25.289 --> 01:00:27.570
to be more courageous, more empathetic, all the

01:00:27.570 --> 01:00:30.590
elements that we need in our profession. So rather

01:00:30.590 --> 01:00:33.130
than checking a box and doing a psych test, air

01:00:33.130 --> 01:00:35.989
quotes, you simply go, okay, well, of course,

01:00:36.030 --> 01:00:37.889
you've probably got some stuff because you're

01:00:37.889 --> 01:00:42.340
here. that's amazing, but you don't have to hide

01:00:42.340 --> 01:00:44.340
it, be ashamed of it, whatever. We're going to

01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:46.340
put it out in the middle of the room and we're

01:00:46.340 --> 01:00:48.000
going to start talking about it and working through

01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.599
it so that you can then thrive as a soldier,

01:00:50.619 --> 01:00:53.400
as a firefighter. And your proverbial basket

01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:56.719
is empty when you start deploying overseas or,

01:00:56.800 --> 01:00:58.980
as you mentioned, going to these horrendous scenes

01:00:58.980 --> 01:01:01.760
that we respond to. So I think that the next

01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:03.820
generation of this conversation when it comes

01:01:03.820 --> 01:01:07.309
to recruitment in uniform. is having that absolutely

01:01:07.309 --> 01:01:09.989
at day one. There's a good, good chance that

01:01:09.989 --> 01:01:12.110
you have. And that's great. I'm glad that you're

01:01:12.110 --> 01:01:13.789
here. Here's your uniform. Here's your badge.

01:01:14.010 --> 01:01:16.090
Let's start moving right from day one rather

01:01:16.090 --> 01:01:19.809
than let's not talk about it until it really

01:01:19.809 --> 01:01:21.590
rears its ugly head. I think there's a balance

01:01:21.590 --> 01:01:24.530
to be struck, right? I think many people might

01:01:24.530 --> 01:01:26.849
not be ready to talk about it or might not even

01:01:26.849 --> 01:01:28.369
have acknowledged that there is something that

01:01:28.369 --> 01:01:30.510
is there to be talked about. I mean, there's

01:01:30.510 --> 01:01:33.940
things that I didn't. When I was writing the

01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:35.960
book, so think of it as a particularly cathartic

01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:37.960
experience. I didn't feel closure for anything.

01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:41.199
I just was writing what I remembered. But it

01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:44.539
came to me actually after I finished one of the

01:01:44.539 --> 01:01:46.880
early drafts, I was chatting to a friend about

01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.019
some of his early childhood trauma. And he's

01:01:49.019 --> 01:01:52.059
had a horrific, horrific experience with death

01:01:52.059 --> 01:01:54.960
and substance abuse and all sorts of other things

01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:57.360
in his family. And he talked about a recurring

01:01:57.360 --> 01:01:59.599
nightmare that he had. And it was him talking

01:01:59.599 --> 01:02:02.440
about his nightmare on a podcast. that suddenly

01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:05.179
out of nowhere reminded me that I had a recurring

01:02:05.179 --> 01:02:07.699
nightmare when I was a kid. And I completely

01:02:07.699 --> 01:02:09.480
forgot about it. I hadn't actively buried it

01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:11.599
or just completely forgotten that I had it. And

01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:14.219
then suddenly it became quite vivid again. So

01:02:14.219 --> 01:02:16.820
I ended up putting it in the book and jokingly

01:02:16.820 --> 01:02:18.280
say, I'm sure somebody would be able to unpick

01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:19.679
that and tell me all sorts of things about my

01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:23.820
soul, having heard the meaning of my dream, as

01:02:23.820 --> 01:02:26.900
it were. But I think the challenge is that...

01:02:27.949 --> 01:02:30.090
When many people do join the military as late

01:02:30.090 --> 01:02:33.570
teens or early or uniform of any kind, police

01:02:33.570 --> 01:02:36.590
officers or emergency services, fire or medics,

01:02:36.590 --> 01:02:40.389
whatever, they might still be quite young mentally

01:02:40.389 --> 01:02:43.909
and emotionally and in life and just not ready

01:02:43.909 --> 01:02:48.289
to or know that now is the time to talk about

01:02:48.289 --> 01:02:50.610
all this stuff in huge detail. I think absolutely

01:02:50.610 --> 01:02:52.349
we need to find a way to make sure that there's

01:02:52.349 --> 01:02:55.110
no stigma attached to somebody having had challenge.

01:02:55.880 --> 01:02:59.260
um equally i don't think we want to label people

01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:01.000
i don't think there's a big risk there that you

01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:03.159
know it seems like every child has a label of

01:03:03.159 --> 01:03:06.059
some kind now i mean i was always referred to

01:03:06.059 --> 01:03:08.260
in my reports as being a naughty child and couldn't

01:03:08.260 --> 01:03:09.480
sit still or whatever i mean that's probably

01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:12.280
classic adhd or god knows what else but i'm glad

01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:14.699
i didn't have a label um i was just a naughty

01:03:14.699 --> 01:03:17.300
child because because i was the reasons why you

01:03:17.300 --> 01:03:20.719
know one can ask my daughters ask my teachers

01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:24.099
uh if they're still alive but um I think there's

01:03:24.099 --> 01:03:25.900
my point. I think there's a balance to be struck

01:03:25.900 --> 01:03:27.760
that we should make it clear that if you are

01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:30.960
ready to talk about some of these things, then

01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:34.219
there are mechanisms and ways to help make this

01:03:34.219 --> 01:03:37.480
a superpower rather than a vulnerability. And

01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.719
that, I think, is something that we need to do

01:03:39.719 --> 01:03:43.039
better at. I'm happy to say that I believe in

01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:47.599
the military now, certainly in the UK. services

01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.960
on offer if somebody is struggling are far better

01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:52.260
than they ever were. The wrapper around which

01:03:52.260 --> 01:03:56.179
people can feel safe and able to get through

01:03:56.179 --> 01:03:59.900
some of the experiences they've had is far better

01:03:59.900 --> 01:04:01.659
than when I joined. I don't remember it ever

01:04:01.659 --> 01:04:03.099
really being something that we discussed until

01:04:03.099 --> 01:04:05.780
fairly late on in my career that people might

01:04:05.780 --> 01:04:08.159
want to speak to somebody about some of the stuff

01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:10.300
they'd seen. It was sort of, for me, it was all

01:04:10.300 --> 01:04:12.139
kind of self -regulated that I just had to remind

01:04:12.139 --> 01:04:16.289
myself that seeing a... an adult or a child with

01:04:16.289 --> 01:04:19.110
limbs blown off or, you know, just in terrible

01:04:19.110 --> 01:04:21.409
trauma, that those things are not normal and

01:04:21.409 --> 01:04:23.789
try not to be desensitized to it. And every time

01:04:23.789 --> 01:04:25.690
I saw it sort of reminding myself actively to

01:04:25.690 --> 01:04:27.650
be shocked, to remind myself that I was still

01:04:27.650 --> 01:04:30.269
connected and, and it would be the, the fact

01:04:30.269 --> 01:04:33.750
that I didn't feel emotionally upset by it would

01:04:33.750 --> 01:04:35.269
be the first trigger that I needed to go and

01:04:35.269 --> 01:04:39.230
speak to somebody. Yeah. That's interesting.

01:04:39.489 --> 01:04:41.449
I think first, just to your point, I agree completely.

01:04:41.530 --> 01:04:43.190
I think that's when, when you're opening the

01:04:43.190 --> 01:04:44.849
door, those sessions don't have to be, tell me

01:04:44.849 --> 01:04:46.389
everything that happened to you. Just simply,

01:04:46.429 --> 01:04:48.530
you know, you could talk about West Ham that

01:04:48.530 --> 01:04:50.829
hour, whatever it is, but when you've normalized

01:04:50.829 --> 01:04:53.469
it at the front door, when they are like, oh

01:04:53.469 --> 01:04:54.909
shit, you know, I'm not sleeping well, I'm having

01:04:54.909 --> 01:04:57.030
a nightmare. And I think then they're like, well,

01:04:57.050 --> 01:04:59.369
it's an easy, well, I'll go see Steve or Alison

01:04:59.369 --> 01:05:02.429
or whoever your person is, is a zero barrier

01:05:02.429 --> 01:05:05.269
to entry then versus, you know. you haven't had

01:05:05.269 --> 01:05:07.389
that address and now you're hurting and now you're

01:05:07.389 --> 01:05:09.469
already on the back foot. So I think there's

01:05:09.469 --> 01:05:11.630
a beautiful opportunity to just kind of, you

01:05:11.630 --> 01:05:13.829
know, keep that door open when they're ready.

01:05:13.909 --> 01:05:17.170
It doesn't have to be on day one. With the desensitization,

01:05:17.349 --> 01:05:19.449
it's funny because this is pertinent to England.

01:05:20.210 --> 01:05:23.269
I went home a couple of years after 7X, especially

01:05:23.269 --> 01:05:26.349
a year after 7X, and visited my dad. He had an

01:05:26.349 --> 01:05:27.869
knee surgery, so I was taking care of him, getting

01:05:27.869 --> 01:05:30.809
him back to the West country. on the plane on

01:05:30.809 --> 01:05:34.050
the runway getting ready to to taxi to the uh

01:05:34.050 --> 01:05:36.570
to the runway excuse me on the on the tarmac

01:05:36.570 --> 01:05:39.610
and the last passenger that walked on the plane

01:05:39.610 --> 01:05:42.030
i saw a bunch of kind of turmoil i was looking

01:05:42.030 --> 01:05:44.670
forward and he just basically keeled over in

01:05:44.670 --> 01:05:48.250
the aisle it's a very long story very short unlike

01:05:48.250 --> 01:05:50.929
you see in these news news cuttings where you

01:05:50.929 --> 01:05:52.889
know there was a conference of cardiologists

01:05:52.889 --> 01:05:54.969
on that day or emergency physicians there was

01:05:54.969 --> 01:05:58.070
no one no one from emergency medicine So there

01:05:58.070 --> 01:06:00.550
were some great, you know, good Samaritans. The

01:06:00.550 --> 01:06:02.949
cabin crew had been trained in some of the basic

01:06:02.949 --> 01:06:05.409
stuff. But I ended up having to kind of, you

01:06:05.409 --> 01:06:08.349
know, run a code on this gentleman. And we worked

01:06:08.349 --> 01:06:09.969
him in the aisle for a while. The fire brigade

01:06:09.969 --> 01:06:12.550
got here and managed to get them to drag him

01:06:12.550 --> 01:06:14.409
to the galley. We kept working him. Finally,

01:06:14.489 --> 01:06:17.389
London ambulance came. And then obviously they

01:06:17.389 --> 01:06:20.670
got the actual ALS treatment. And so, you know,

01:06:20.710 --> 01:06:22.869
I then stepped back and was like, okay, you know,

01:06:22.889 --> 01:06:24.949
you guys need anything else? And they were good.

01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:27.360
went to the bathroom, washed the blood off my

01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:29.659
hands, and then went and took a seat. And the

01:06:29.659 --> 01:06:33.019
reason I say this is I sat there and it was kind

01:06:33.019 --> 01:06:35.760
of like, God, why am I feeling weird? And to

01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:38.320
your point, it's because for 14 years I dealt

01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:40.780
with that stuff and you don't have time to think

01:06:40.780 --> 01:06:43.400
about it. You put the stuff back in the rig,

01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:45.079
you go back in service, and then boom, you're

01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:48.260
off to another call. But now you don't have your

01:06:48.260 --> 01:06:50.840
team around you. Nothing went right because a

01:06:50.840 --> 01:06:53.539
guy keeled over in an aisle and no one had the

01:06:53.539 --> 01:06:55.860
training and we had real problems even getting

01:06:55.860 --> 01:06:58.219
access to the equipment. It took, you know, five

01:06:58.219 --> 01:07:00.079
minutes for them to get permission for each little

01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:02.480
thing that we needed. And so, you know, you just

01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:05.079
left with this feeling of, man, that was awful.

01:07:05.699 --> 01:07:07.440
But what I realized is that's how you're supposed

01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:10.139
to feel when someone dies. And it was the first

01:07:10.139 --> 01:07:13.039
time after all those years where I kind of circled

01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:15.889
around to, oh. oh, this is the actual normal

01:07:15.889 --> 01:07:18.329
physiological response, like you said. Now, we

01:07:18.329 --> 01:07:20.610
can't tap into that every single time. I mean,

01:07:20.650 --> 01:07:24.329
as you alluded to earlier, we see so much trauma

01:07:24.329 --> 01:07:27.230
that you'd be constantly getting flooded with

01:07:27.230 --> 01:07:29.750
adrenaline. But especially in the conversation

01:07:29.750 --> 01:07:32.510
of once you transitioned out, it's like understanding

01:07:32.510 --> 01:07:35.429
that you have to get yourself back to feeling

01:07:35.429 --> 01:07:38.030
again in a way. And that's a very strange journey

01:07:38.030 --> 01:07:41.369
to have to do because you did prior to the occupation.

01:07:42.539 --> 01:07:44.860
But you can't operate if you're having an extreme

01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:47.659
reaction to each of these incidents. So you can't

01:07:47.659 --> 01:07:50.380
help but taper your response. Yeah, I mean, for

01:07:50.380 --> 01:07:52.579
me, my emotions now, because of all the stuff

01:07:52.579 --> 01:07:54.719
I've experienced in life, are far close to the

01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:58.019
surface. I mean, watching a sad Instagram reel

01:07:58.019 --> 01:08:02.699
or a movie, I feel it very, very keenly when

01:08:02.699 --> 01:08:05.699
I see, particularly if children get hurt or just

01:08:05.699 --> 01:08:08.059
unpleasant stuff, my emotions are very, very

01:08:08.059 --> 01:08:11.239
close to the surface. But I don't see that. generally

01:08:11.239 --> 01:08:12.820
in my case, and this is where I feel extremely

01:08:12.820 --> 01:08:15.960
fortunate, that of all my military service and

01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.720
trauma that I experienced, that I was able to

01:08:19.720 --> 01:08:23.979
sort of, I wouldn't say bank in a way or process

01:08:23.979 --> 01:08:26.340
necessarily, but it just, it didn't affect me

01:08:26.340 --> 01:08:28.920
in the way that they were fighting to be a parent

01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:31.619
and struggling with not being given access to

01:08:31.619 --> 01:08:33.340
my daughter and that kind of stuff and feeling

01:08:33.340 --> 01:08:35.479
like the system was geared against. particularly

01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:38.760
to get access to their child if they're trying

01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:41.300
to be good parents and stuff. That was far and

01:08:41.300 --> 01:08:43.739
away more traumatic for me than any of my military

01:08:43.739 --> 01:08:45.560
service. But I recognize it is all cumulative.

01:08:46.340 --> 01:08:50.220
So everything does leave a mark. You know, like

01:08:50.220 --> 01:08:54.039
that famous book, Body Keeps the Score. You know,

01:08:54.039 --> 01:08:55.659
there's whatever you've experienced, whether

01:08:55.659 --> 01:08:59.159
it's early childhood or in your teens or 20s,

01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:00.920
there's every single thing that happens kind

01:09:00.920 --> 01:09:03.640
of niggles away. Actually, one of the early titles

01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:05.539
for the book, I wanted to be or thought it would

01:09:05.539 --> 01:09:09.239
be quite clever to call it Walking Wounded. Partly

01:09:09.239 --> 01:09:11.079
because I was technically labeled as walking

01:09:11.079 --> 01:09:13.579
wounded when I was shot, but also to make the

01:09:13.579 --> 01:09:15.819
point that all of us in life, regardless of what

01:09:15.819 --> 01:09:18.720
we do, are generally walking wounded in some

01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:21.640
way throughout our journey, whatever the journey

01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:23.539
looks like. We're all picking up niggles here

01:09:23.539 --> 01:09:26.260
and there, mental and physical. And we just are,

01:09:26.380 --> 01:09:28.640
you know, just keeping going and hopefully building

01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:31.659
resilience and skills as a result of those niggles

01:09:31.659 --> 01:09:34.060
as you go to be stronger for the next thing and

01:09:34.060 --> 01:09:36.539
the next thing. And I actually, you know, not

01:09:36.539 --> 01:09:38.020
that I want to experience some of the things

01:09:38.020 --> 01:09:40.399
that I've experienced again, but I'm grateful

01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:44.140
that I have had some pretty extreme experiences

01:09:44.140 --> 01:09:47.779
because if I hadn't, I don't think I'd be, I

01:09:47.779 --> 01:09:50.159
wouldn't say stable, but be in the place that

01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:51.960
I am, you know, and been able to do the things

01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:55.140
that I've done. If I had had less. uh, struggle

01:09:55.140 --> 01:09:57.520
or challenge throughout my life. And particularly

01:09:57.520 --> 01:09:59.359
those early years, I might not have been nearly

01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:01.880
as resilient and able to cope with the, or roll

01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:03.680
with the punches that I then had to deal with,

01:10:03.760 --> 01:10:05.699
particularly where I was leading other people

01:10:05.699 --> 01:10:08.380
in a team. You know, they look to you to be able

01:10:08.380 --> 01:10:11.060
to give them the strength and the guidance to

01:10:11.060 --> 01:10:13.340
get out of something scary and unpleasant and

01:10:13.340 --> 01:10:16.119
unfamiliar. Um, so I'm, I'm grateful for all

01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:18.260
the struggles that I've had because I've learned

01:10:18.260 --> 01:10:21.180
to appreciate the. The upside's far more, and

01:10:21.180 --> 01:10:23.220
I feel that I am genuinely far more resilient

01:10:23.220 --> 01:10:25.760
for having struggled and failed multiple times

01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:28.859
at multiple things, because that's how you learn.

01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:35.960
When I look back and hear stories from men and

01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:37.880
women in the fire service who have... being at

01:10:37.880 --> 01:10:40.159
that darkest point, you know, they've there with

01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:41.960
the pistol, you know, whatever, whatever their,

01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:44.720
their method of execution, self -execution was

01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:46.640
going to be. And thank God, you know, a dog,

01:10:46.699 --> 01:10:49.859
a phone call, whatever it was to stop them. And

01:10:49.859 --> 01:10:51.819
I look back and go, well, why didn't I get to

01:10:51.819 --> 01:10:54.359
that point? And even though when I was four,

01:10:54.420 --> 01:10:56.319
I was in a house fire and, you know, my parents

01:10:56.319 --> 01:10:58.500
had a horrific divorce and we had another near

01:10:58.500 --> 01:11:00.819
death experience in Wells and all these, these

01:11:00.819 --> 01:11:02.380
things that you could look back and go, well,

01:11:02.420 --> 01:11:06.159
these were significant traumas. I also grew up

01:11:06.159 --> 01:11:08.340
on a farm. My dad was a horse vet. He was healing

01:11:08.340 --> 01:11:12.159
animals. I had real food, lots of activity, time

01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:15.079
in nature, community. I was one of five kids.

01:11:15.260 --> 01:11:17.640
So a lot of these elements that we know are healing

01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:21.899
simultaneously now. When you reflect back, knowing

01:11:21.899 --> 01:11:25.279
that there are men in your unit that also got

01:11:25.279 --> 01:11:28.010
to that dark place that we lost. What were some

01:11:28.010 --> 01:11:31.229
of the elements of your life thus far you think

01:11:31.229 --> 01:11:34.710
that countered these trauma to allow you to process

01:11:34.710 --> 01:11:38.270
them and become a strength and resilience? I

01:11:38.270 --> 01:11:39.869
don't know. It's a great question. It's a tough

01:11:39.869 --> 01:11:42.270
one, though, because everybody's different, right?

01:11:42.289 --> 01:11:45.890
The brain is annoyingly unique for everybody.

01:11:45.989 --> 01:11:47.449
It's a slightly different way that we process

01:11:47.449 --> 01:11:50.369
everything. So I can safely say that at no point

01:11:50.369 --> 01:11:54.130
ever in my life have I ever considered ending

01:11:54.130 --> 01:11:57.479
my life. I've never got to that point. um and

01:11:57.479 --> 01:12:00.779
i hope that i never would um i've had some pretty

01:12:00.779 --> 01:12:03.119
dark points where i just couldn't see a way through

01:12:03.119 --> 01:12:06.500
financially let's say or just with the things

01:12:06.500 --> 01:12:08.460
that i was trying to juggle like how can i process

01:12:08.460 --> 01:12:10.859
all of these things and still be able to function

01:12:10.859 --> 01:12:17.220
um i've been in those places um but i yeah i've

01:12:17.220 --> 01:12:19.920
never never sort of thought about what i would

01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:22.079
why i would ever you know move to the ultimate

01:12:22.079 --> 01:12:27.239
sort of um cry for help i suppose um But, you

01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:30.520
know, you mentioned dog for me, having my dog

01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:33.420
who sadly passed away in the summer after over

01:12:33.420 --> 01:12:37.460
17 years. We're very, very lucky. She was amazing.

01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:40.180
I mean, she was with me through all of the really

01:12:40.180 --> 01:12:44.359
crappiest parts of the recent life. And I grew

01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:47.319
up in a in a household that we had animals all

01:12:47.319 --> 01:12:49.539
over the place all the time, whether it was hamsters

01:12:49.539 --> 01:12:53.310
or. fish or rabbits or dogs or whatever. The

01:12:53.310 --> 01:12:55.069
dogs that we grew up with generally were rescue

01:12:55.069 --> 01:12:56.850
Great Danes. I mean, Great Danes are ridiculous

01:12:56.850 --> 01:12:59.869
anyway. They're so bloody huge. And their hearts

01:12:59.869 --> 01:13:02.189
are so small for such a large animal. So even

01:13:02.189 --> 01:13:04.810
on a good run, you're probably looking at eight

01:13:04.810 --> 01:13:07.470
years average for a great day. But with rescues,

01:13:07.470 --> 01:13:09.289
we would sometimes have five years, maybe six

01:13:09.289 --> 01:13:10.770
if we were lucky. So we kind of learnt the circle

01:13:10.770 --> 01:13:13.670
of life quite early on. And then when I got Maya,

01:13:13.850 --> 01:13:16.829
who was a German Shorthead Pointer, I was told

01:13:16.829 --> 01:13:19.050
that they generally live to 12 to 14. I was like,

01:13:19.109 --> 01:13:20.890
oh my God, this is amazing. I've never had a

01:13:20.890 --> 01:13:23.789
dog beyond eight. This is awesome. And then,

01:13:23.810 --> 01:13:25.789
you know, she had a few struggles in her life.

01:13:25.850 --> 01:13:27.529
But yeah, we finally lost her in the summer,

01:13:27.550 --> 01:13:30.310
aged 17 years, two months. But she lived with

01:13:30.310 --> 01:13:31.850
me in Australia when I was out there trying to

01:13:31.850 --> 01:13:33.449
be closer to my daughter. She lived with me in

01:13:33.449 --> 01:13:36.409
the States. She never quite got over the steering

01:13:36.409 --> 01:13:37.850
wheel being on the wrong side of the car. So

01:13:37.850 --> 01:13:39.350
she would normally sit in the front with me.

01:13:39.409 --> 01:13:41.550
And when I picked her up from Dulles Airport

01:13:41.550 --> 01:13:43.850
one time, she jumped straight into what would

01:13:43.850 --> 01:13:45.470
have been the passenger seat at home in the UK

01:13:45.470 --> 01:13:46.869
and sort of goes, right, where are we going?

01:13:46.909 --> 01:13:48.550
It's like, honey, unless you've learned to drive,

01:13:48.569 --> 01:13:51.079
you're going to have to do it. um but we did

01:13:51.079 --> 01:13:52.460
everything together you know she was absolutely

01:13:52.460 --> 01:13:55.779
a sidekick so for me having an animal or having

01:13:55.779 --> 01:13:58.600
some even if you're on your own um just having

01:13:58.600 --> 01:14:01.979
somebody something there that wants you to go

01:14:01.979 --> 01:14:03.399
and do something with them you know when you

01:14:03.399 --> 01:14:04.859
thought i just can't get out of bed i don't know

01:14:04.859 --> 01:14:07.539
quite what to do today i just can't face it and

01:14:07.539 --> 01:14:09.520
then this happy creature comes up says come on

01:14:09.520 --> 01:14:10.979
let's go for a walk this would be amazing and

01:14:10.979 --> 01:14:12.239
then you go back yeah actually yeah life's all

01:14:12.239 --> 01:14:15.300
right um so for me just having something and

01:14:15.300 --> 01:14:16.800
i was very lucky as well in that time i talk

01:14:16.800 --> 01:14:19.390
about it in the book a bit that, particularly

01:14:19.390 --> 01:14:20.949
when I was in Australia, obviously completely

01:14:20.949 --> 01:14:22.890
the wrong time zone for where most of my friends

01:14:22.890 --> 01:14:26.449
were back in the UK and Europe. And there were

01:14:26.449 --> 01:14:29.409
certain friends who weren't necessarily the closest

01:14:29.409 --> 01:14:33.770
friends that I had on whom I was sort of expecting

01:14:33.770 --> 01:14:36.489
to rely. They were the people who I didn't necessarily

01:14:36.489 --> 01:14:38.529
know as well, who wouldn't take no for an answer.

01:14:38.569 --> 01:14:40.649
If I just stopped responding to texts or wouldn't

01:14:40.649 --> 01:14:43.329
answer calls, they just kept going until I did.

01:14:43.489 --> 01:14:47.729
And then that was really... enlightening I suppose

01:14:47.729 --> 01:14:49.149
for me that it wasn't necessarily the people

01:14:49.149 --> 01:14:51.590
I expected to be there who were there and that

01:14:51.590 --> 01:14:56.109
gave me a reason to think about how I interact

01:14:56.109 --> 01:14:57.909
with others that I don't have you know you don't

01:14:57.909 --> 01:14:59.930
have to know somebody super well and in fact

01:14:59.930 --> 01:15:03.310
in some cases it may be better if you don't know

01:15:03.310 --> 01:15:05.470
somebody super well that you can provide that

01:15:05.470 --> 01:15:09.630
emotional support or just the ear to hear how

01:15:09.630 --> 01:15:11.609
they might be struggling or getting through something

01:15:11.609 --> 01:15:14.789
challenging. Particularly when, if they don't

01:15:14.789 --> 01:15:17.949
come from a world like ours of service and trauma,

01:15:18.170 --> 01:15:20.550
if something tragic has happened to them in a

01:15:20.550 --> 01:15:23.670
arguably normal life, normal job, normal sort

01:15:23.670 --> 01:15:26.689
of existence, their friends and family may really

01:15:26.689 --> 01:15:28.710
struggle to know what to say and how to say it.

01:15:28.789 --> 01:15:31.350
And I had this actually very recently with somebody

01:15:31.350 --> 01:15:35.369
who's a customer actually at work on the counter

01:15:35.369 --> 01:15:38.090
drone side and we were working with him and then

01:15:38.090 --> 01:15:40.720
he shared that he just lost his son. you know,

01:15:40.739 --> 01:15:46.260
as a late teen child suddenly. And clearly appalling,

01:15:46.260 --> 01:15:47.939
you know, to have to, you know, have your kids

01:15:47.939 --> 01:15:51.859
pre -decease you. And so I shared a copy of the

01:15:51.859 --> 01:15:53.699
book and just said, like, I'm here to listen.

01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:56.479
And seemingly that was sort of all that was needed

01:15:56.479 --> 01:15:58.899
to give him something to, you know, and he opened

01:15:58.899 --> 01:16:00.579
up. And now, you know, we've got a very different

01:16:00.579 --> 01:16:03.000
relationship because he was willing to be vulnerable

01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:05.439
and I was willing to listen. And I've experienced

01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:07.340
this myself, you know, with a lot of friends

01:16:07.340 --> 01:16:09.779
and family or friends or any colleagues who've

01:16:10.359 --> 01:16:12.880
um been involved in trauma or loss and there

01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:15.279
is a sort of what do i say i don't want to say

01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:17.859
something wrong so i won't say anything but actually

01:16:17.859 --> 01:16:19.920
it's just saying something and just knowing that

01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:22.739
somebody is there to listen and and gets it maybe

01:16:22.739 --> 01:16:25.319
all that you need so i'm trying to do better

01:16:25.319 --> 01:16:27.239
and try and make sure that i've got more time

01:16:27.239 --> 01:16:30.260
for people that don't necessarily count as close

01:16:30.260 --> 01:16:32.520
friends but if i can help or the book can help

01:16:32.520 --> 01:16:35.899
people then that'd be amazing Well, speaking

01:16:35.899 --> 01:16:39.619
of dogs, I had a German Shepherd, Nini, who,

01:16:39.739 --> 01:16:42.359
again, was there right at the beginning of my

01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:44.619
divorce all the way through till I think we lost

01:16:44.619 --> 01:16:48.899
her three years ago now. And she was everything,

01:16:49.060 --> 01:16:51.420
100%. And I was very fortunate. My mom had had

01:16:51.420 --> 01:16:53.460
German Shepherds since I was little, and she

01:16:53.460 --> 01:16:55.840
always kind of overlapped. So when one got kind

01:16:55.840 --> 01:16:57.619
of middle -aged, she got another one because

01:16:57.619 --> 01:17:00.699
I thought they lived longer. But actually, they

01:17:00.699 --> 01:17:02.560
only lived for about 10 years, and that's when

01:17:02.560 --> 01:17:06.630
I lost mine. The downside, obviously, of having

01:17:06.630 --> 01:17:11.029
such an incredible companion is when you do finally

01:17:11.029 --> 01:17:13.710
lose them. So how did you deal with the grief

01:17:13.710 --> 01:17:17.130
of, you know, of an incredible companion that

01:17:17.130 --> 01:17:19.529
you leaned on so much, you know, the last 17

01:17:19.529 --> 01:17:23.840
years? Well, like I said, we grew up with learning

01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:26.979
the circle of life pretty rapidly. We lost hamsters

01:17:26.979 --> 01:17:31.239
probably every 10 minutes. It's just we got through

01:17:31.239 --> 01:17:34.180
a lot of animals for all sorts of reasons. I

01:17:34.180 --> 01:17:36.380
just got really out of the habit. So, you know,

01:17:36.399 --> 01:17:39.840
I think the thing that helped me was just reminding

01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:42.859
myself constantly how lucky we were to have had

01:17:42.859 --> 01:17:46.699
so much time. Every day, every month extra was

01:17:46.699 --> 01:17:49.409
a blessing really from what I was told. You could

01:17:49.409 --> 01:17:53.050
expect 12 to 14 years. I mean, she had, how old

01:17:53.050 --> 01:17:54.630
would she have been? Just after I arrived in

01:17:54.630 --> 01:18:00.149
America in 2016, 2017, maybe with her. She had

01:18:00.149 --> 01:18:02.890
a cancerous tumor that was identified, which

01:18:02.890 --> 01:18:04.390
caused all sorts of dramas with the insurance

01:18:04.390 --> 01:18:06.409
company. I had to prove that I didn't know about

01:18:06.409 --> 01:18:08.289
it before I took the policy out because it literally

01:18:08.289 --> 01:18:10.170
happened a couple of weeks after we arrived.

01:18:10.210 --> 01:18:12.270
I got the gold -plated insurance because I was

01:18:12.270 --> 01:18:14.800
terrified about the cost of... medical care in

01:18:14.800 --> 01:18:17.039
america and i thought oh god she was always hurting

01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:19.180
herself running around like a lunatic ripping

01:18:19.180 --> 01:18:21.359
stuff open and tearing her ears and god knows

01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:24.500
what and so um when this uh cancerous tumor was

01:18:24.500 --> 01:18:26.800
found i was like oh my god i can't i can't cope

01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:29.000
so i got the gold -plated insurance that probably

01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:31.300
included manicures and pedicures and massage

01:18:31.300 --> 01:18:34.760
and god knows what anyway um so she'd gone through

01:18:34.760 --> 01:18:37.359
a few things and during covid we thought we might

01:18:37.359 --> 01:18:40.020
lose at one point she had a they call it a vestibular

01:18:40.020 --> 01:18:41.840
accident, which is basically a blood flow issue

01:18:41.840 --> 01:18:43.739
between the brain and the balance. And she kept

01:18:43.739 --> 01:18:46.079
falling over and just wasn't very well. But she

01:18:46.079 --> 01:18:47.479
got through that and she sort of had lots of

01:18:47.479 --> 01:18:50.239
things once and then just kept going. So as tragic

01:18:50.239 --> 01:18:53.060
as it was to finally lose her, I think I just

01:18:53.060 --> 01:18:56.380
had to be, just as I remind myself that how lucky

01:18:56.380 --> 01:18:58.340
we were to have had so much time and she was

01:18:58.340 --> 01:19:01.479
such an amazing, amazing dog. that it was just

01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:04.180
a blessing um she's actually she's in a tube

01:19:04.180 --> 01:19:06.800
in my office on the shelf so she's still with

01:19:06.800 --> 01:19:11.619
us uh as we speak um but the hardest thing was

01:19:11.619 --> 01:19:13.920
that when they finally worked out why she wasn't

01:19:13.920 --> 01:19:16.600
getting better she had this stupid habit of jumping

01:19:16.600 --> 01:19:19.520
off the last few steps on the stairs and that

01:19:19.520 --> 01:19:22.880
was fine if it was a grippy floor but um one

01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:24.899
time she did it you know a couple months before

01:19:24.899 --> 01:19:27.869
she died and her legs just went you know out

01:19:27.869 --> 01:19:29.829
sideways and just she must have ripped something

01:19:29.829 --> 01:19:31.489
i don't know something horrible happened and

01:19:31.489 --> 01:19:33.130
she didn't really ever recover she suddenly looked

01:19:33.130 --> 01:19:35.010
old when she wasn't bouncing around like a puppy

01:19:35.010 --> 01:19:37.329
like everyone thought she was uh and then she

01:19:37.329 --> 01:19:39.479
just had upset stomach constantly and eventually

01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:40.859
we took her to the vet and said like she's not

01:19:40.859 --> 01:19:42.560
getting better we've given her put her a muzzle

01:19:42.560 --> 01:19:44.720
on her so she can't eat anything horrible on

01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:46.960
walks so it can't be that and they basically

01:19:46.960 --> 01:19:48.619
did a scan and said oh my god the reason she's

01:19:48.619 --> 01:19:50.539
off her food is because there's so much cancer

01:19:50.539 --> 01:19:53.899
around her um in her stomach cavity that there's

01:19:53.899 --> 01:19:56.619
no room so she's not eating because it must be

01:19:56.619 --> 01:20:00.039
so painful for her to eat so uh made the decision

01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:02.079
pretty much not there and then but you know within

01:20:02.079 --> 01:20:04.520
an hour And then they said, you know, bring her

01:20:04.520 --> 01:20:07.739
in tomorrow morning at, I think it was 11 .40

01:20:07.739 --> 01:20:10.140
was the first appointment. That was the hardest

01:20:10.140 --> 01:20:12.380
bit. That was really, really tough. Knowing that

01:20:12.380 --> 01:20:15.500
we had this clock ticking and that this would

01:20:15.500 --> 01:20:17.619
be her last walk, her last this, her last meal,

01:20:17.680 --> 01:20:21.180
you know, so that was tough. But she had a really

01:20:21.180 --> 01:20:23.539
good, well, one of her best sort of peaceful

01:20:23.539 --> 01:20:25.420
final nights because she's had some pretty unpleasant,

01:20:25.539 --> 01:20:29.319
you know, nights of being quite ill. So it happened

01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:31.579
as best as it possibly could have given the circumstances.

01:20:32.569 --> 01:20:34.989
Very lucky and just trying to identify now the

01:20:34.989 --> 01:20:40.130
new baby mama of whoever comes next and hopefully

01:20:40.130 --> 01:20:43.630
have a dog who's going to be equally loving and

01:20:43.630 --> 01:20:46.050
kind and want to go running and do all the fun

01:20:46.050 --> 01:20:47.829
things that I used to enjoy doing as a little

01:20:47.829 --> 01:20:52.689
gang. Beautiful. Yeah, I kenneled mine. She actually

01:20:52.689 --> 01:20:54.930
passed away in the kennel, but she was acting

01:20:54.930 --> 01:20:57.430
a little off, but nothing that was too alarming.

01:20:58.359 --> 01:21:00.699
But my wife was in med school down in Miami,

01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:02.699
so 300 miles away. So I would kennel her for

01:21:02.699 --> 01:21:05.180
the weekend, go visit my wife every other week

01:21:05.180 --> 01:21:08.739
and then come back. And the way that she looked

01:21:08.739 --> 01:21:12.319
at me retrospectively, I think she knew. And

01:21:12.319 --> 01:21:14.300
my puppy was with her as well. So she wasn't

01:21:14.300 --> 01:21:17.159
alone. The kennel people are amazing. But I've

01:21:17.159 --> 01:21:19.039
had that seared in my mind, the way that she

01:21:19.039 --> 01:21:20.800
looked back at me that last time. I'd probably

01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:23.039
get choked up even talking about it now. But

01:21:23.039 --> 01:21:27.060
like you said, though, all those years. All that

01:21:27.060 --> 01:21:29.340
companionship, all that unconditional love. I

01:21:29.340 --> 01:21:30.880
mean, that's what you got to reflect on. And

01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:34.020
she's sitting on the table in my living room.

01:21:34.039 --> 01:21:38.420
So she's still with us too. All right. Well,

01:21:38.500 --> 01:21:41.680
another area that you do a good job kind of,

01:21:41.680 --> 01:21:44.279
you know, I think traversing in the book. And

01:21:44.279 --> 01:21:47.399
by the way, I love the fact that you did this

01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:49.600
because, you know, you have that whole, you know,

01:21:49.600 --> 01:21:51.800
quiet, silent professional element in a lot of

01:21:51.800 --> 01:21:55.569
your professions. There's so much value in story.

01:21:55.850 --> 01:21:58.590
And obviously, there's a difference between storytelling

01:21:58.590 --> 01:22:01.970
and narcissism. And I killed all these people

01:22:01.970 --> 01:22:04.949
single -handedly like Rambo. But I think our

01:22:04.949 --> 01:22:07.029
professions can do a lot of good in the world

01:22:07.029 --> 01:22:09.710
if you couple some stories from your experience

01:22:09.710 --> 01:22:11.970
and give the average person a view through your

01:22:11.970 --> 01:22:14.829
eyes, but then layer it with takeaways. That's

01:22:14.829 --> 01:22:16.550
what I did with my first book. And I think you've

01:22:16.550 --> 01:22:19.550
done such a good job here. But in our professions

01:22:19.550 --> 01:22:22.550
and also outside our professions, I realized

01:22:22.550 --> 01:22:26.250
that... A lot of times we talk about mental health

01:22:26.250 --> 01:22:28.850
challenges and we do this because you're hurting

01:22:28.850 --> 01:22:32.170
and need to heal you. But there's such a chasm

01:22:32.170 --> 01:22:35.930
between that and where I'm sure the teams that

01:22:35.930 --> 01:22:38.850
you work with have the psychologists helping

01:22:38.850 --> 01:22:41.470
as well, which is high level performance. In

01:22:41.470 --> 01:22:44.270
my profession, we're still stuck at, well, these

01:22:44.270 --> 01:22:46.710
firefighters keep dying or taking their own lives

01:22:46.710 --> 01:22:49.470
or overdosing or drowning in alcohol. How do

01:22:49.470 --> 01:22:52.489
we stop that happening? On the other side of

01:22:52.489 --> 01:22:54.850
that is high -level performance. How can you

01:22:54.850 --> 01:22:57.390
traverse 20 floors in the Grenfell Tower and

01:22:57.390 --> 01:22:59.449
then have the clear mind and get into a flow

01:22:59.449 --> 01:23:01.789
state to try and do a primary search as everything's

01:23:01.789 --> 01:23:05.270
burning around you? So talk to me about that.

01:23:05.390 --> 01:23:07.810
We have these conversations about mental health,

01:23:07.909 --> 01:23:11.069
but I think that same exact conversation factors

01:23:11.069 --> 01:23:16.210
into the mental high performance. Yeah, I mean,

01:23:16.229 --> 01:23:20.560
my experiences were... I suppose, of their generation.

01:23:20.720 --> 01:23:23.859
You know, I'm not a youngster. And at the time

01:23:23.859 --> 01:23:26.720
where I was doing many of these things, whether

01:23:26.720 --> 01:23:29.800
it was international sports or, which clearly

01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:33.000
is very, very psychological now in terms of,

01:23:33.000 --> 01:23:34.819
you know, every major sports team or international

01:23:34.819 --> 01:23:37.699
team would have a team of psychologists that

01:23:37.699 --> 01:23:39.359
are helping people think about how to process

01:23:39.359 --> 01:23:41.680
what's going on around them to continue to be

01:23:41.680 --> 01:23:44.600
in their flow state, performing at the very top

01:23:44.600 --> 01:23:46.819
all the way through the game or the race or whatever.

01:23:47.300 --> 01:23:50.079
None of that was there. in any of the periods

01:23:50.079 --> 01:23:53.359
that i was doing this stuff it was always kind

01:23:53.359 --> 01:23:55.199
of um we were making enough as we went along

01:23:55.199 --> 01:23:57.880
really um and that's not saying that's that's

01:23:57.880 --> 01:24:01.000
good um so i'm glad to know that there are better

01:24:01.000 --> 01:24:04.859
um facilities and services available to people

01:24:04.859 --> 01:24:07.720
to to think about things that might help them

01:24:07.720 --> 01:24:11.449
to be more uh high performing in the moment but

01:24:11.449 --> 01:24:13.930
also to think about how they would process those

01:24:13.930 --> 01:24:17.109
activities or actions after the fact that just

01:24:17.109 --> 01:24:19.149
wasn't a thing for us so I never honestly genuinely

01:24:19.149 --> 01:24:21.449
thought about it as a well mental health wasn't

01:24:21.449 --> 01:24:24.350
a term then either you know it was probably too

01:24:24.350 --> 01:24:25.750
far the other way I was just sort of get on with

01:24:25.750 --> 01:24:29.670
it clearly if somebody was really struggling

01:24:29.670 --> 01:24:31.529
then you know we had a duty of care to make sure

01:24:31.529 --> 01:24:33.510
that we tried to get them to speak to somebody

01:24:33.510 --> 01:24:36.119
but there weren't very many I wouldn't have known

01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:38.399
necessarily where to go to get them the help

01:24:38.399 --> 01:24:40.460
that they might need. And if you get that wrong

01:24:40.460 --> 01:24:44.140
first touch with the system to help somebody

01:24:44.140 --> 01:24:46.640
who might be struggling in whichever way, then

01:24:46.640 --> 01:24:49.039
that could be the only thing they need to turn

01:24:49.039 --> 01:24:50.960
them off to the whole process about ever talking

01:24:50.960 --> 01:24:52.920
about it again, which could be the start of the

01:24:52.920 --> 01:24:57.020
spiral. So I'm not well, you know, best informed

01:24:57.020 --> 01:24:59.979
to be able to say how it's done today across.

01:25:00.779 --> 01:25:03.779
the military or fire service or or police but

01:25:03.779 --> 01:25:05.979
don't think that the fire service is still decades

01:25:05.979 --> 01:25:07.680
behind you know where even if we are slightly

01:25:07.680 --> 01:25:10.659
ahead as a military collectively globally we're

01:25:10.659 --> 01:25:13.699
not as far ahead as perhaps you might think um

01:25:13.699 --> 01:25:16.819
and it's often the people that you would never

01:25:16.819 --> 01:25:19.779
expect who are the ones that that aren't able

01:25:19.779 --> 01:25:22.100
to cope and that's that's the thing that's so

01:25:22.100 --> 01:25:24.880
frustrating is that it's so hard to predict and

01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:28.180
identify who the people might be that that might

01:25:28.180 --> 01:25:30.659
actually be the ones who could go to the point

01:25:30.659 --> 01:25:34.159
of ending their own lives or die by suicide because

01:25:34.159 --> 01:25:36.300
they can't cope or don't feel that there's any

01:25:36.300 --> 01:25:38.380
point in continuing. It's not necessarily the

01:25:38.380 --> 01:25:42.479
people that you would associate visually or from

01:25:42.479 --> 01:25:44.819
even what they say. And that's the biggest challenge,

01:25:44.880 --> 01:25:47.239
which is why having professionals who know what

01:25:47.239 --> 01:25:50.460
to look for is so critical. When I think back

01:25:50.460 --> 01:25:52.180
to the high -performing stuff, I talk about it

01:25:52.180 --> 01:25:54.699
in the book, you might remember when I went to

01:25:54.699 --> 01:25:56.479
the World Championships and I had no training

01:25:56.479 --> 01:25:59.039
and no preparation because I didn't get the letter

01:25:59.039 --> 01:26:00.899
that selected me for the Great Britain team,

01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:02.739
which was ridiculous because the army lost the

01:26:02.739 --> 01:26:05.359
letter. And I turned up at the World Championships

01:26:05.359 --> 01:26:07.859
on the start line and I've never been as relaxed

01:26:07.859 --> 01:26:10.699
in my life for a race, the biggest race of my

01:26:10.699 --> 01:26:12.479
life. And I was so chilled because I thought,

01:26:12.500 --> 01:26:14.920
I haven't had breakfast, I was drinking last

01:26:14.920 --> 01:26:16.550
night because it was a... thing that i needed

01:26:16.550 --> 01:26:19.489
to go to i've had no sleep i've done no training

01:26:19.489 --> 01:26:22.430
what could possibly go wrong and i and i had

01:26:22.430 --> 01:26:25.069
the rest of my life because i'd given myself

01:26:25.069 --> 01:26:28.229
an excuse not to not to put the pressure on that

01:26:28.229 --> 01:26:30.189
i would normally have put on myself to perform

01:26:30.189 --> 01:26:32.569
even though i you know never had any real training

01:26:32.569 --> 01:26:35.090
uh in that sport i just sort of you know just

01:26:35.090 --> 01:26:37.729
seeing if i could do it and randomly found myself

01:26:37.729 --> 01:26:39.670
on the start line of the world championships

01:26:39.670 --> 01:26:42.779
which is a bit stupid um so i think Again, it

01:26:42.779 --> 01:26:44.399
goes back to the brain being different. I think

01:26:44.399 --> 01:26:46.880
it's hard to put a one size fits all, but I'm

01:26:46.880 --> 01:26:49.479
glad to know that for those who are in professions

01:26:49.479 --> 01:26:52.859
where the chronic level of stress or requirement

01:26:52.859 --> 01:26:55.000
to make the right decision every time, because

01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:57.359
you don't get a second chance in the heat of

01:26:57.359 --> 01:27:01.399
a fire or a shooting or a gun battle or a sporting

01:27:01.399 --> 01:27:03.500
race, that there are mechanisms in place to make

01:27:03.500 --> 01:27:06.500
sure that we understand at least that thinking

01:27:06.500 --> 01:27:09.760
about and supporting people in processing the

01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:11.020
kind of activities that they're about to embark

01:27:11.020 --> 01:27:13.630
on and train them. as much as you can to be ready

01:27:13.630 --> 01:27:16.069
to be able to cope with them is now a thing because

01:27:16.069 --> 01:27:18.890
it certainly wasn't when I was a youngster. Well,

01:27:18.930 --> 01:27:20.869
I think what's beautiful about it is it's a two

01:27:20.869 --> 01:27:23.810
-pronged conversation. So if you, especially

01:27:23.810 --> 01:27:26.430
when you have the guys that still buy into the,

01:27:26.430 --> 01:27:28.310
you know, the mental health side is weakness

01:27:28.310 --> 01:27:29.550
and all that kind of thing, which I think is

01:27:29.550 --> 01:27:31.390
getting less and less as we progress through

01:27:31.390 --> 01:27:34.750
now. But if you focus on the high performance

01:27:34.750 --> 01:27:38.050
side, the tools are pretty much the same. You

01:27:38.050 --> 01:27:42.400
know, I had a baseball player on Logan. Gelbrich

01:27:42.400 --> 01:27:45.079
a few years ago, and he was talking about a flow

01:27:45.079 --> 01:27:47.720
state moment that he had in a game. And he's

01:27:47.720 --> 01:27:49.399
also a kind of sports scientist as well. And

01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:51.119
he was saying, you need three things to get into

01:27:51.119 --> 01:27:53.899
a flow state. You need, you know, the, the number

01:27:53.899 --> 01:27:55.880
of reps, the repetition. So you're actually a

01:27:55.880 --> 01:27:58.579
good at that skill. You need a high stress environment,

01:27:58.760 --> 01:28:00.960
which for him was a baseball game for us is obviously

01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:03.579
what we did. And then you said you need a calm

01:28:03.579 --> 01:28:06.260
mind and that's, that's the ding, ding, ding,

01:28:06.380 --> 01:28:09.229
ding, ding. So. If you are looking at being in

01:28:09.229 --> 01:28:11.109
a flow state or trying to chase at least the

01:28:11.109 --> 01:28:15.090
flow state in a gun battle, in a firefight, in

01:28:15.090 --> 01:28:19.109
a building, then a lot of the modalities are

01:28:19.109 --> 01:28:21.350
the same. If you are doing meditation, if you

01:28:21.350 --> 01:28:24.239
are... speaking to a counselor if that's something

01:28:24.239 --> 01:28:26.260
that you need to do if you are doing you know

01:28:26.260 --> 01:28:28.539
breath work or ice baths or whatever these things

01:28:28.539 --> 01:28:31.520
are that that you're using as a tool you can

01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:34.420
forge performance but the beautiful unspoken

01:28:34.420 --> 01:28:36.920
side effect is also you're positively affecting

01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:40.100
your mental health so i think that you know that

01:28:40.100 --> 01:28:42.899
the fact that these you can positively move the

01:28:42.899 --> 01:28:45.859
needle on both of these adds a lot more weight

01:28:45.859 --> 01:28:48.300
to not the arguments the wrong word but it it

01:28:48.300 --> 01:28:51.460
opens people's eyes and destigmatizes this to

01:28:51.460 --> 01:28:53.300
you know you're broken we've got to help you

01:28:53.300 --> 01:28:55.819
fix and takes it into no no we want you to be

01:28:55.819 --> 01:28:58.819
a better soldier a better firefighter and i think

01:28:58.819 --> 01:29:00.880
the fact that you can message it that way and

01:29:00.880 --> 01:29:02.979
have the side effects that are positively affecting

01:29:02.979 --> 01:29:05.619
the mental health is maybe the future conversation

01:29:05.619 --> 01:29:08.260
of this whole thing well one of the the sponsors

01:29:08.260 --> 01:29:10.640
or patrons of the book actually is a is an organization

01:29:10.640 --> 01:29:14.319
called peak state mental fitness For them, which

01:29:14.319 --> 01:29:15.720
I buy into completely, they talk a lot about

01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.279
flow state in their work, but it's about the

01:29:18.279 --> 01:29:20.300
brain is a muscle or think of it as a muscle

01:29:20.300 --> 01:29:22.060
like any other muscle. You have to train it and

01:29:22.060 --> 01:29:24.819
exercise it and test it and repeat, rinse, repeat.

01:29:25.140 --> 01:29:27.960
And so thinking about being mentally fit rather

01:29:27.960 --> 01:29:31.199
than mental health per se, I think for certainly

01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:33.300
high performers is the way that I like to think

01:29:33.300 --> 01:29:35.800
about it, that we can train ourselves with exercises

01:29:35.800 --> 01:29:38.880
or exposure to the kinds of things that we're

01:29:38.880 --> 01:29:41.850
going to need to get comfortable in. And for

01:29:41.850 --> 01:29:45.029
me, generally, given that we always used to joke

01:29:45.029 --> 01:29:47.590
in the military that no plan survives contact

01:29:47.590 --> 01:29:49.250
with the enemy, you can have the best plan in

01:29:49.250 --> 01:29:51.470
the world. And as Mike Tyson used to say, everyone

01:29:51.470 --> 01:29:52.909
has a plan until you're punched in the face.

01:29:53.350 --> 01:29:57.310
So accepting that upfront in any situation you

01:29:57.310 --> 01:30:01.149
go into that, yes, plan and train ready for the

01:30:01.149 --> 01:30:04.289
event, but also be equally ready that when things

01:30:04.289 --> 01:30:06.289
don't go to plan, you've also thought about some

01:30:06.289 --> 01:30:08.750
of the contingencies that are most likely so

01:30:08.750 --> 01:30:11.119
that you don't go. oh my God, what to do now?

01:30:11.479 --> 01:30:13.000
Because you've thought about if in the event

01:30:13.000 --> 01:30:14.279
of this happening, and we used to do it all the

01:30:14.279 --> 01:30:15.640
time, you know, in the event of vehicle breakdown

01:30:15.640 --> 01:30:17.840
or helicopter crash or whatever it might be,

01:30:17.899 --> 01:30:19.840
number of casualties, what would we do to either

01:30:19.840 --> 01:30:22.739
continue to achieve the mission or save the lives

01:30:22.739 --> 01:30:24.739
of those that might be impacted? And the same

01:30:24.739 --> 01:30:27.560
in a race or anything else. I think for me, that

01:30:27.560 --> 01:30:30.100
fitness piece is key. And you talk about calm

01:30:30.100 --> 01:30:31.960
mind, I mean, maybe for the wrong reasons, but

01:30:31.960 --> 01:30:33.619
on that start line of that world championships

01:30:33.619 --> 01:30:36.060
was I could not have been calmer because it was

01:30:36.060 --> 01:30:37.939
so alien to me. And I just thought the whole

01:30:37.939 --> 01:30:41.079
thing was so ridiculous. that there was no point

01:30:41.079 --> 01:30:43.439
being stressed because i hadn't i there was no

01:30:43.439 --> 01:30:46.279
more control there was no control to be had it

01:30:46.279 --> 01:30:48.699
was just enjoy it you know be proud that you're

01:30:48.699 --> 01:30:51.000
wearing your nation's colors and i just basically

01:30:51.000 --> 01:30:53.119
hung on the back of this this guy another brit

01:30:53.119 --> 01:30:56.020
who i think ended up getting a silver medal um

01:30:56.020 --> 01:30:58.859
on that first 10 kilometer run i just tried to

01:30:58.859 --> 01:31:00.960
hang on to him you know for that 10 kilometers

01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:03.609
it was far faster than i was ever able or willing

01:31:03.609 --> 01:31:06.090
to go i got a personal best on the run alone

01:31:06.090 --> 01:31:07.850
i just thought i just got to keep going until

01:31:07.850 --> 01:31:10.649
i either die or or someone tells me to stop and

01:31:10.649 --> 01:31:15.289
uh and it worked out well going back to our earlier

01:31:15.289 --> 01:31:18.409
conversation i mean i think the perfect example

01:31:18.409 --> 01:31:23.149
of the detrimental element of a busy overworked

01:31:23.149 --> 01:31:25.789
uh you know tired mind is what we saw in covid

01:31:25.789 --> 01:31:28.869
and i mean actually the the conversation it was

01:31:28.869 --> 01:31:31.250
you know two world war one trenches you read

01:31:31.250 --> 01:31:34.260
the pro vaccines masks or you were anti everything

01:31:34.260 --> 01:31:37.479
it was chinese conspiracy and it was almost an

01:31:37.479 --> 01:31:39.539
inability to stand in the middle and go well

01:31:39.539 --> 01:31:41.760
wait a second this is definitely obviously a

01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:43.340
real thing wherever it came from it's a real

01:31:43.340 --> 01:31:46.960
virus but the health of the individual seems

01:31:46.960 --> 01:31:49.800
to dictate your ability to overcome this or not

01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:52.039
so why don't we just talk about making everyone

01:31:52.039 --> 01:31:53.840
healthier let's get them outside let's get them

01:31:53.840 --> 01:31:56.340
exercising let's get them you know being around

01:31:56.340 --> 01:31:58.640
people even if you can you know, do it outside

01:31:58.640 --> 01:32:00.260
because you don't want to fracture relationships.

01:32:00.619 --> 01:32:02.479
We know that's detrimental to the human health

01:32:02.479 --> 01:32:05.140
as well. But there was an inability to critically

01:32:05.140 --> 01:32:07.920
think. And whether it's at a macro level during

01:32:07.920 --> 01:32:10.640
a pandemic or whether it's a micro level during

01:32:10.640 --> 01:32:13.500
a firefight or looking for a child in a burning

01:32:13.500 --> 01:32:16.119
building, it still alludes to the fact that if

01:32:16.119 --> 01:32:19.189
you can work on yourself. and and do whatever

01:32:19.189 --> 01:32:21.909
it takes to to get that mind calmer and clearer

01:32:21.909 --> 01:32:24.710
not only will you operate at a high level but

01:32:24.710 --> 01:32:27.409
even just you know in these national conversations

01:32:27.409 --> 01:32:30.210
you'll be able to stand in the middle again and

01:32:30.210 --> 01:32:32.250
critically think and go does that make sense

01:32:32.250 --> 01:32:35.270
is that kind is that benefiting the people of

01:32:35.270 --> 01:32:38.029
my nation i see yeah yeah and that's what i thought

01:32:38.029 --> 01:32:39.750
about the mask stuff but i didn't always wear

01:32:39.750 --> 01:32:42.670
masks but i did when i was in situations where

01:32:42.670 --> 01:32:49.500
we were in confined spaces or an thought it was

01:32:49.500 --> 01:32:52.800
going to stop me getting sick or not if it was

01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:55.300
going to likely potentially protect others because

01:32:55.300 --> 01:32:56.720
i might have come into contact with somebody

01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:59.140
i didn't know had the disease there might be

01:32:59.140 --> 01:33:01.239
an elderly person on the tube then i felt it

01:33:01.239 --> 01:33:03.640
was my duty to do anything that i could that

01:33:03.640 --> 01:33:06.039
might reduce the risk it may not ameliorate the

01:33:06.039 --> 01:33:08.960
risk entirely and i remember that when this debate

01:33:08.960 --> 01:33:11.699
became so you know aggressive didn't it between

01:33:11.699 --> 01:33:13.979
all the different sides and there was one that

01:33:13.979 --> 01:33:16.140
that i did like a cartoon once trying to explain

01:33:16.140 --> 01:33:18.770
to people who were refusing to accept that masks

01:33:18.770 --> 01:33:22.449
could do anything. And it had different cartoons

01:33:22.449 --> 01:33:25.390
of people peeing on each other. And it had, you

01:33:25.390 --> 01:33:28.210
know, somebody had a mask, then the pee went

01:33:28.210 --> 01:33:29.930
back on themselves. It didn't go out to the other

01:33:29.930 --> 01:33:31.529
person. It was just saying that it's going to

01:33:31.529 --> 01:33:34.250
do something if it's not, you know, if you can

01:33:34.250 --> 01:33:36.529
prevent your germs going one way or the other.

01:33:36.649 --> 01:33:38.069
And then the other thing that amused me during

01:33:38.069 --> 01:33:41.550
COVID was the way different countries referenced

01:33:41.550 --> 01:33:44.069
the distance that one should keep between each

01:33:44.069 --> 01:33:46.170
other for safety. And I think it was in Sweden.

01:33:46.760 --> 01:33:51.119
They had signs that had a moose or an elk as

01:33:51.119 --> 01:33:53.640
the thing that people should think about, right?

01:33:53.680 --> 01:33:55.640
Stay one moose away from the next person. They

01:33:55.640 --> 01:33:58.500
were saying two meters that some people go, what's

01:33:58.500 --> 01:34:00.100
two meters look like? They're like, just stay

01:34:00.100 --> 01:34:04.699
an elk or a moose apart from someone else. Yeah,

01:34:04.699 --> 01:34:07.140
it was, I mean, again, reflecting back now, this

01:34:07.140 --> 01:34:09.300
is what's sad too. I don't know if we had this

01:34:09.300 --> 01:34:12.340
in the first conversation, but... Where I feel

01:34:12.340 --> 01:34:15.079
there was a massive disservice is the decisions

01:34:15.079 --> 01:34:17.699
that were made were made. And what happened happened.

01:34:17.920 --> 01:34:20.840
And we saw, you know, there were hot spots where

01:34:20.840 --> 01:34:23.300
absolutely this virus was creating a lot of death,

01:34:23.500 --> 01:34:25.859
especially, again, with people with comorbidities.

01:34:25.960 --> 01:34:28.079
And there were other sides, like I had Tom Beaver

01:34:28.079 --> 01:34:30.920
from BeaverFit, where they built a massive morgue

01:34:30.920 --> 01:34:33.380
in London and it was completely unused. And they

01:34:33.380 --> 01:34:37.119
built it, which is amazing, amazing. So, but

01:34:37.119 --> 01:34:39.260
what really pissed me off is after the fact.

01:34:39.860 --> 01:34:42.500
After we saw the real elements, after we saw

01:34:42.500 --> 01:34:44.300
politicians having Christmas parties while the

01:34:44.300 --> 01:34:45.880
British are being told to stay in their homes,

01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:51.579
there was no retroactive after action report

01:34:51.579 --> 01:34:54.300
on, okay, what did we do well? What did we do

01:34:54.300 --> 01:34:56.479
poorly? Do we need to look at the nation's health?

01:34:56.720 --> 01:34:59.220
And that is where we did the massive disservice,

01:34:59.239 --> 01:35:01.260
I think, is that we need to learn from those

01:35:01.260 --> 01:35:03.600
events. So the next time, because it will happen.

01:35:04.200 --> 01:35:06.800
how we react differently, how can we make the

01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:09.199
nation healthier. And certainly here in the US,

01:35:09.260 --> 01:35:11.479
that was a zero conversation. In fact, we're

01:35:11.479 --> 01:35:13.979
just getting fatter and sicker. Yeah, I mean,

01:35:13.979 --> 01:35:16.640
I think that inquiry is maybe still going on,

01:35:16.680 --> 01:35:18.420
or maybe it concluded recently. But you know,

01:35:18.420 --> 01:35:22.779
we're not great as a nation. And as a society,

01:35:22.779 --> 01:35:25.000
probably globally of really learning lessons,

01:35:25.159 --> 01:35:28.760
we are quite quick to identify lessons, but whether

01:35:28.760 --> 01:35:30.520
we actually learn them or want to learn them,

01:35:30.520 --> 01:35:32.970
particularly if in if we learned the lesson and

01:35:32.970 --> 01:35:34.789
then did something about it to make sure it didn't

01:35:34.789 --> 01:35:36.449
happen again if it's going to be too expensive

01:35:36.449 --> 01:35:38.609
or too difficult or too disruptive then they

01:35:38.609 --> 01:35:42.149
just don't do it um so it's always slightly depressing

01:35:42.149 --> 01:35:43.649
when you read these reports you go some of this

01:35:43.649 --> 01:35:45.550
stuff is so obvious why did it take three years

01:35:45.550 --> 01:35:48.170
to agree that that was just a stupid thing to

01:35:48.170 --> 01:35:51.689
do or not do um anyway but what what from the

01:35:51.689 --> 01:35:53.189
from what you read in the book what are the things

01:35:53.189 --> 01:35:55.529
that connected most with you personally what

01:35:55.529 --> 01:36:00.739
did you find resonated or or surprised I mean,

01:36:00.760 --> 01:36:03.479
honestly, what resonated with me was, again,

01:36:03.659 --> 01:36:06.000
this reinforcing of a lot of things that we talked

01:36:06.000 --> 01:36:08.180
about for several years now. And again, with

01:36:08.180 --> 01:36:10.300
different people, different perspectives, different

01:36:10.300 --> 01:36:14.260
stories to connect them, like community, for

01:36:14.260 --> 01:36:16.159
example. So this is what we're going to hit next.

01:36:16.680 --> 01:36:19.920
In our profession, you have a lot of people that,

01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:22.359
you know. They're selflessly served. They're

01:36:22.359 --> 01:36:25.579
proud to be, you know, in part of this unit.

01:36:25.640 --> 01:36:27.199
You're obviously in a very elite unit. So you

01:36:27.199 --> 01:36:29.319
have that cohesion. You have that close tribe.

01:36:29.760 --> 01:36:32.220
You have that sense of purpose. I am doing something,

01:36:32.359 --> 01:36:33.819
hopefully, that's going to make the world a little

01:36:33.819 --> 01:36:37.180
bit better. But then you transition out. And

01:36:37.180 --> 01:36:39.039
I think that's where we see a lot of our veterans,

01:36:39.119 --> 01:36:42.020
a lot of our first responders struggling. And

01:36:42.020 --> 01:36:44.380
so the overarching lesson, I think the community

01:36:44.380 --> 01:36:47.420
element is everything. But talk to me about that.

01:36:48.670 --> 01:36:51.729
We develop such a cohesive unit in a lot of these

01:36:51.729 --> 01:36:55.350
groups. But then one day you leave, your ID doesn't

01:36:55.350 --> 01:36:56.930
work, you're not wearing the uniform anymore,

01:36:57.109 --> 01:37:00.489
and you find yourself in a flat. Maybe your family

01:37:00.489 --> 01:37:03.890
unit can dissolve. So I think that's one of the

01:37:03.890 --> 01:37:05.689
most important things for people listening, because

01:37:05.689 --> 01:37:07.470
it doesn't matter whether you wear a uniform

01:37:07.470 --> 01:37:10.409
or not. They've shown that not only mental health,

01:37:10.430 --> 01:37:14.140
but physical health. The relationship side is

01:37:14.140 --> 01:37:16.380
one of the most important things for mental and

01:37:16.380 --> 01:37:18.539
physical longevity. And that is something that's

01:37:18.539 --> 01:37:21.579
so fractured so acutely in the uniform professions.

01:37:23.159 --> 01:37:25.300
Yeah, I think the I mean, the community thing

01:37:25.300 --> 01:37:27.520
I finished, as I said in the book at the end

01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:29.720
with the power of community, because it is so

01:37:29.720 --> 01:37:32.760
important, I think, particularly not just for

01:37:32.760 --> 01:37:34.539
those who've served in uniform, but for anybody,

01:37:34.619 --> 01:37:37.119
you know, we are designed to be parts of communities

01:37:37.119 --> 01:37:40.039
or tribes and storytell and be part of something.

01:37:40.810 --> 01:37:42.789
And I think that's the challenge if people find

01:37:42.789 --> 01:37:45.390
themselves in situations post -service or just

01:37:45.390 --> 01:37:48.550
in life generally alone or isolated. Clearly,

01:37:48.689 --> 01:37:50.989
COVID did highlight that for a lot of people,

01:37:51.010 --> 01:37:53.829
how difficult that can be if you are actively

01:37:53.829 --> 01:37:57.689
cut off from those interactions that may be all

01:37:57.689 --> 01:37:59.449
you need. It may be that you just go down to

01:37:59.449 --> 01:38:02.329
your coffee shop once a day and just the act

01:38:02.329 --> 01:38:04.390
of saying hello and somebody asking how you are

01:38:04.390 --> 01:38:05.810
and you just having a bit of a chit -chat while

01:38:05.810 --> 01:38:07.739
you buy your coffee. that may be that all you

01:38:07.739 --> 01:38:10.939
need and your community is that cafe. Or it might

01:38:10.939 --> 01:38:12.939
be your sports team or your music group, your

01:38:12.939 --> 01:38:15.760
band or your veteran group or your firefighter

01:38:15.760 --> 01:38:18.380
group or a mixture of all these things. I think

01:38:18.380 --> 01:38:23.979
the trying to find ways and for us to have ways

01:38:23.979 --> 01:38:27.829
to include people in groups easily. so that they

01:38:27.829 --> 01:38:29.850
feel like they are part of something. It doesn't

01:38:29.850 --> 01:38:31.449
really matter what the thing is, honestly. I

01:38:31.449 --> 01:38:33.310
think just feeling like you're part of something

01:38:33.310 --> 01:38:37.149
where you have a safe place to go. For some people,

01:38:37.170 --> 01:38:39.529
it would be a church or a synagogue or a mosque.

01:38:39.729 --> 01:38:43.010
It doesn't really matter. But I get that people

01:38:43.010 --> 01:38:46.369
need to feel connected. That's just how we're

01:38:46.369 --> 01:38:50.649
wired. For me, in terms of the transition, just

01:38:50.649 --> 01:38:52.970
to touch on that, and I think we talked about

01:38:52.970 --> 01:38:54.770
this a little bit last time we were on together.

01:38:56.939 --> 01:39:00.079
I think part of this process is, again, almost

01:39:00.079 --> 01:39:03.279
training yourself to understand what is going

01:39:03.279 --> 01:39:06.100
to happen in advance of it happening. So many

01:39:06.100 --> 01:39:08.859
of the stories where a transition hasn't worked

01:39:08.859 --> 01:39:12.600
very well for somebody seems to be where They've

01:39:12.600 --> 01:39:14.220
been in the tribe, in the tribe, in the tribe,

01:39:14.279 --> 01:39:16.420
and now they're not. And suddenly it's all new

01:39:16.420 --> 01:39:18.600
and it's scary and it's daunting. And there isn't

01:39:18.600 --> 01:39:20.159
that support network and the friendship group

01:39:20.159 --> 01:39:22.199
because you've gone back because you might have

01:39:22.199 --> 01:39:23.319
money and you've gone back to live with your

01:39:23.319 --> 01:39:24.899
parents or something may have happened that you

01:39:24.899 --> 01:39:27.479
find yourself suddenly in a very different circumstance.

01:39:27.979 --> 01:39:31.020
I think if we can help people, and I know this

01:39:31.020 --> 01:39:33.079
work is ongoing across many different professions

01:39:33.079 --> 01:39:36.489
to try and prepare people better for. the next

01:39:36.489 --> 01:39:37.989
phase of their life because let's face it many

01:39:37.989 --> 01:39:40.529
of us are still very young and we've got more

01:39:40.529 --> 01:39:43.270
time to serve in other roles in life than the

01:39:43.270 --> 01:39:45.810
time we spent in uniform um if we're healthy

01:39:45.810 --> 01:39:51.170
and so for me i didn't necessarily actively think

01:39:51.170 --> 01:39:54.869
about this too much but i did consciously make

01:39:54.869 --> 01:39:57.289
a decision that i wasn't actively transitioning

01:39:57.289 --> 01:40:00.229
from one tribe to another because there were

01:40:00.229 --> 01:40:02.569
plenty of things that transcended whether i was

01:40:02.569 --> 01:40:06.750
in uniform or not um my way of thinking about

01:40:06.750 --> 01:40:09.829
life and where I could add value commercially

01:40:09.829 --> 01:40:12.109
or otherwise was that if I can find myself continuing

01:40:12.109 --> 01:40:14.630
to do interesting things with interesting people

01:40:14.630 --> 01:40:17.729
in interesting places that's the continuity and

01:40:17.729 --> 01:40:19.770
it doesn't matter whether I'm in uniform or out

01:40:19.770 --> 01:40:22.510
of uniform in a government job or in a commercial

01:40:22.510 --> 01:40:25.229
job as long as I've got that balance of always

01:40:25.229 --> 01:40:27.270
finding something that I can do with people that

01:40:27.270 --> 01:40:30.529
I trust who are all pulling in the same direction

01:40:30.529 --> 01:40:32.489
as a team it didn't matter if it's a big team

01:40:32.489 --> 01:40:34.390
or a small team a startup or a big corporate

01:40:34.909 --> 01:40:37.550
You've just got to find your groove with people

01:40:37.550 --> 01:40:41.449
that are like -minded and in my case, service

01:40:41.449 --> 01:40:44.189
focused or mission focused and not self -serving

01:40:44.189 --> 01:40:47.289
narcissistic types that doing something for the

01:40:47.289 --> 01:40:49.130
greater good. For me, that's what purpose is

01:40:49.130 --> 01:40:51.890
all about. And as long as we can find elements

01:40:51.890 --> 01:40:55.210
of that in the transitional phase, then I think

01:40:55.210 --> 01:40:57.590
most people would actually find that life is

01:40:57.590 --> 01:41:01.930
not quite as scary as perhaps they think or find

01:41:01.930 --> 01:41:04.760
it if they haven't. thought about it in advance

01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:08.020
about where they might end up. Just for people

01:41:08.020 --> 01:41:09.939
listening, that's not an attack drone that's

01:41:09.939 --> 01:41:12.140
flying around Ash's head. That's just the construction

01:41:12.140 --> 01:41:16.180
workers a couple of floors down. Apple might

01:41:16.180 --> 01:41:18.100
do a better job of getting rid of the drilling

01:41:18.100 --> 01:41:23.579
that's going on. No, you're fine. What I realize

01:41:23.579 --> 01:41:28.500
as well is when we... lean too heavily into the

01:41:28.500 --> 01:41:31.239
identity i was a soldier i was a firefighter

01:41:31.239 --> 01:41:33.520
you know and then you one day you're in the supermarket

01:41:33.520 --> 01:41:36.000
and no one cares what you did you're just a bloke

01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:38.180
in line you know with some hobnobs in your hand

01:41:38.180 --> 01:41:42.619
um it made me realize that if you take a step

01:41:42.619 --> 01:41:44.500
back going back to what we talked about early

01:41:44.500 --> 01:41:47.449
life why are you driven to serve That's who you

01:41:47.449 --> 01:41:50.829
are. That's your purpose is that you wanted to

01:41:50.829 --> 01:41:53.109
be there when people were having a bad day. You

01:41:53.109 --> 01:41:55.909
wanted to be there to be the protector. And some

01:41:55.909 --> 01:41:58.270
of us found first responders, military units

01:41:58.270 --> 01:42:01.710
to be a part of that. But that was just. the

01:42:01.710 --> 01:42:04.010
unit, you know, the uniform that we put on for

01:42:04.010 --> 01:42:06.789
that moment. But if you carry on that purpose,

01:42:06.850 --> 01:42:08.550
as you have obviously with your charity work

01:42:08.550 --> 01:42:09.930
and some of the other things that you've done,

01:42:09.989 --> 01:42:12.289
you know, a lot of people that then transition

01:42:12.289 --> 01:42:14.529
out and, you know, whether you're a personal

01:42:14.529 --> 01:42:16.670
trainer or you become a physician or whatever

01:42:16.670 --> 01:42:20.229
it is, but you carrying on that service element,

01:42:20.409 --> 01:42:23.890
it seems to be a much less jarring transition.

01:42:23.949 --> 01:42:25.930
But I find that the people that then transition

01:42:25.930 --> 01:42:28.699
out and go to, as you talked about, one of those

01:42:28.699 --> 01:42:31.000
less altruistic groups, maybe you find yourself

01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:32.819
in finance or something. And now you're just

01:42:32.819 --> 01:42:34.659
being told money is the most important thing.

01:42:35.180 --> 01:42:37.880
I feel that's usually a mismatch for a lot of

01:42:37.880 --> 01:42:41.560
people that did serve. Yeah. I mean, I remember

01:42:41.560 --> 01:42:43.979
when I was looking at what sectors I might want

01:42:43.979 --> 01:42:47.840
to work in and people saying, have you thought

01:42:47.840 --> 01:42:49.199
about financial services? And I thought, well,

01:42:49.220 --> 01:42:50.840
yeah, I could do that. You know, I feel like

01:42:50.840 --> 01:42:54.300
I'm. I don't have any specific skills, but I've

01:42:54.300 --> 01:42:55.960
got enough skills that I can turn my hand to

01:42:55.960 --> 01:42:57.439
many different things. There wasn't anything

01:42:57.439 --> 01:42:59.579
that was particularly, you know, didn't jump

01:42:59.579 --> 01:43:01.640
out as that's the job I want. I want to be at

01:43:01.640 --> 01:43:03.800
this or that. So I thought, yeah, financially,

01:43:03.880 --> 01:43:05.199
I could do that. And then the more I thought

01:43:05.199 --> 01:43:07.220
about it, it's like, that's just not me. Yes,

01:43:07.260 --> 01:43:09.279
it'd be lovely to earn ridiculous sums of money.

01:43:09.300 --> 01:43:11.520
And, you know, that's life changing in all sorts

01:43:11.520 --> 01:43:14.100
of ways. But, you know, I have worked for some

01:43:14.100 --> 01:43:18.220
companies where just the culture wasn't a good

01:43:18.220 --> 01:43:20.760
fit. And I've been paid better there than I have

01:43:20.760 --> 01:43:24.319
in other places. But I just couldn't stay. There

01:43:24.319 --> 01:43:25.899
were some brilliant people and people I loved

01:43:25.899 --> 01:43:28.239
there. But just generally, the culture was just

01:43:28.239 --> 01:43:33.619
not quite right. And I think the other worry

01:43:33.619 --> 01:43:35.420
that a lot of people have is that if they make

01:43:35.420 --> 01:43:37.500
the wrong decision and join the wrong thing,

01:43:37.640 --> 01:43:40.520
that that's it. Because many joined uniformed

01:43:40.520 --> 01:43:42.359
service or non -uniformed service, but service

01:43:42.359 --> 01:43:44.939
generally. And you consider it as a career quite

01:43:44.939 --> 01:43:46.619
often. I mean, I said I didn't mean to, but it

01:43:46.619 --> 01:43:50.630
ended up being such. There's a sort of misconception

01:43:50.630 --> 01:43:53.449
that you can't just say, once you're in the civilian

01:43:53.449 --> 01:43:54.949
sector, okay, well, I didn't like that. I'm going

01:43:54.949 --> 01:43:56.789
to move on to something else. We are very free

01:43:56.789 --> 01:43:59.949
to actually find the tribe and the vibe that

01:43:59.949 --> 01:44:02.670
gels with us. The challenge for many people,

01:44:02.750 --> 01:44:04.729
and I try and explain this to anybody who's asking

01:44:04.729 --> 01:44:05.970
me for advice when they're leaving, it's like,

01:44:06.010 --> 01:44:08.489
don't worry about getting a job. That's not the

01:44:08.489 --> 01:44:11.210
problem. Finding one that you really feel is

01:44:11.210 --> 01:44:13.550
valuable, that you're giving back or you're making

01:44:13.550 --> 01:44:15.789
a difference in the way that you earn enough

01:44:15.789 --> 01:44:17.689
to be comfortable. But, you know, for people

01:44:17.689 --> 01:44:20.550
for whom the salary is not everything, there

01:44:20.550 --> 01:44:26.170
are far more other motivators that actually matter

01:44:26.170 --> 01:44:28.229
more to you with your integrity and your morals

01:44:28.229 --> 01:44:31.289
and the way you are. That's the hard thing is

01:44:31.289 --> 01:44:34.670
to find that tribe. And I've been actively recruiting.

01:44:35.279 --> 01:44:37.800
folks from my team who some of whom worked with

01:44:37.800 --> 01:44:40.779
me in the past or in and out of uniform but different

01:44:40.779 --> 01:44:43.619
different roles and now i'm we've got to a point

01:44:43.619 --> 01:44:46.659
where we've got an incredibly powerful core team

01:44:46.659 --> 01:44:48.800
that i trust and it always comes down to trust

01:44:48.800 --> 01:44:51.079
honestly where i can trust them to do the right

01:44:51.079 --> 01:44:53.159
thing whether i'm there or not trust them to

01:44:53.159 --> 01:44:55.699
make the right judgment calls to take opportunities

01:44:55.699 --> 01:44:57.399
when they present themselves and do the right

01:44:57.399 --> 01:45:00.220
thing and that in itself is so liberating um

01:45:00.220 --> 01:45:02.600
to be bringing good people in and empowering

01:45:02.600 --> 01:45:05.579
them. And if we can create a culture of trust

01:45:05.579 --> 01:45:10.319
and respect, then that's all that we need as

01:45:10.319 --> 01:45:13.000
a gang to hopefully succeed and make a difference

01:45:13.000 --> 01:45:16.779
in the world. And I think it saddens me when

01:45:16.779 --> 01:45:18.439
there are so many people who clearly haven't

01:45:18.439 --> 01:45:20.779
either been able to speak to people in advance

01:45:20.779 --> 01:45:23.100
of the transition and therefore struggled or...

01:45:23.579 --> 01:45:25.939
don't know where to turn to get that support

01:45:25.939 --> 01:45:28.260
network i'm actually speaking to a group tomorrow

01:45:28.260 --> 01:45:30.399
night that a veteran reached out to me a few

01:45:30.399 --> 01:45:32.500
months ago a few weeks ago and asked if i'd speak

01:45:32.500 --> 01:45:34.739
to a group of people that he speaks to once a

01:45:34.739 --> 01:45:37.399
month about about resilience so you know anything

01:45:37.399 --> 01:45:39.680
that can help people just hear a different perspective

01:45:39.680 --> 01:45:42.140
it may be all that's required and not related

01:45:42.140 --> 01:45:44.359
to the book but i remember doing a speech once

01:45:44.359 --> 01:45:46.399
somewhere and this this lady came up to me afterwards

01:45:46.399 --> 01:45:47.859
and i talked about some of the challenges i'd

01:45:48.220 --> 01:45:50.180
i'd experienced and got through and she said

01:45:50.180 --> 01:45:51.699
i just wanted to say thank you and she rested

01:45:51.699 --> 01:45:53.520
her hand on my arm said thank you for what she

01:45:53.520 --> 01:45:56.180
goes i thought my life was shit but you really

01:45:56.180 --> 01:46:00.680
have gone through it was like if i've brought

01:46:00.680 --> 01:46:05.000
you some perspective then you're welcome so uh

01:46:05.000 --> 01:46:06.760
yeah i mean i'm hoping that's what we can do

01:46:06.760 --> 01:46:09.260
with the book is just give people ideas and and

01:46:09.260 --> 01:46:11.199
realize that they're not on their own that we

01:46:11.199 --> 01:46:12.960
are kind of all in it together and you know there

01:46:12.960 --> 01:46:14.579
have been many others that have gone before them

01:46:14.579 --> 01:46:17.350
that have been struggling equally um and there

01:46:17.350 --> 01:46:19.890
is always a way through it may be hard to see

01:46:19.890 --> 01:46:22.350
initially but there is always a way through um

01:46:22.350 --> 01:46:24.930
and and if we can help people find that path

01:46:24.930 --> 01:46:28.850
then that's great one more area before we go

01:46:28.850 --> 01:46:30.329
to some closing questions i'll be mindful of

01:46:30.329 --> 01:46:33.770
your time that is really under discussed again

01:46:33.770 --> 01:46:35.329
when you're talking about high performing teams

01:46:35.329 --> 01:46:38.550
especially but even at a detrimental level is

01:46:38.550 --> 01:46:43.189
the moral injury of organizational betrayal so

01:46:43.189 --> 01:46:46.859
you are a passionate firefighter. You've trained,

01:46:47.039 --> 01:46:48.779
you've done all your education, you come in,

01:46:48.819 --> 01:46:52.319
you're now part of the station. And the way that

01:46:52.319 --> 01:46:55.000
it's run is not service oriented. They're not

01:46:55.000 --> 01:46:58.180
focusing on their people. They're not creating

01:46:58.180 --> 01:46:59.859
an environment that allows these men and women

01:46:59.859 --> 01:47:03.100
to thrive. It's quite corrosive and toxic. And

01:47:03.100 --> 01:47:06.600
that can be very, very jarring for a first responder.

01:47:06.739 --> 01:47:08.760
It can be jarring for a military member if maybe

01:47:08.760 --> 01:47:11.829
they learned that. where they were sent under

01:47:11.829 --> 01:47:14.789
that, you know, pretense was actually falsified.

01:47:15.250 --> 01:47:17.710
What are you seeing as far as that? Just overall,

01:47:17.909 --> 01:47:21.970
the negative impact of a group of people that

01:47:21.970 --> 01:47:24.569
really are there for the right reasons, if there's

01:47:24.569 --> 01:47:27.970
poor leadership or toxic environment? Yeah, I

01:47:27.970 --> 01:47:31.869
mean, it's really tough. One of the modules that

01:47:31.869 --> 01:47:35.329
I teach often if I'm doing leadership seminars

01:47:35.329 --> 01:47:41.380
and stuff is managing up. How can you try and

01:47:41.380 --> 01:47:44.039
help if you've got the experience or you can

01:47:44.039 --> 01:47:46.119
see what is not being done well? It may not necessarily

01:47:46.119 --> 01:47:52.399
be deliberate or designed to hurt or be negatively

01:47:52.399 --> 01:47:56.079
impacting people. But if you can see behaviors

01:47:56.079 --> 01:47:59.079
or issues happening above you that you might

01:47:59.079 --> 01:48:01.739
be able to help, then we also have a duty as

01:48:01.739 --> 01:48:04.340
good followers to try and have a conversation

01:48:04.340 --> 01:48:06.640
and explain to those individuals what it is that

01:48:06.640 --> 01:48:09.479
we value from them. in leadership and those things

01:48:09.479 --> 01:48:12.359
that might be less welcome or are not actually

01:48:12.359 --> 01:48:15.819
helping the team achieve their thing. But that's

01:48:15.819 --> 01:48:17.939
tough. It's a really hard space to be, particularly

01:48:17.939 --> 01:48:20.460
if those who are in those leadership roles are

01:48:20.460 --> 01:48:22.659
not willing to listen and be corrected or be

01:48:22.659 --> 01:48:26.020
challenged. No, I get things wrong all the time,

01:48:26.060 --> 01:48:29.300
but I am always open to be corrected or challenged

01:48:29.300 --> 01:48:30.859
if there's something that I'm doing and encourage

01:48:30.859 --> 01:48:33.710
my team to always. Talk to me if they think that

01:48:33.710 --> 01:48:34.989
I've done something wrong or said something wrong

01:48:34.989 --> 01:48:36.850
or could do something in a better way that could

01:48:36.850 --> 01:48:39.409
help be more inclusive or help people get through

01:48:39.409 --> 01:48:43.710
something in a more positive way. I think, again,

01:48:43.750 --> 01:48:45.550
this goes back to what we discussed earlier about

01:48:45.550 --> 01:48:48.770
what are the motivators of those leaders. And

01:48:48.770 --> 01:48:50.949
if they are, there may be pressures that we're

01:48:50.949 --> 01:48:53.090
not seeing and we have to therefore give them

01:48:53.090 --> 01:48:55.189
a little bit, potentially a little bit more credit

01:48:55.189 --> 01:48:56.930
if there are things that we're not cited to,

01:48:56.970 --> 01:48:58.890
but try and encourage them to share what their

01:48:58.890 --> 01:49:01.420
pressures might be. Because I think with... the

01:49:01.420 --> 01:49:03.220
way the world's going with lots of 360 reporting

01:49:03.220 --> 01:49:05.220
and stuff, you know, we are trying to encourage

01:49:05.220 --> 01:49:08.119
more of a self -awareness culture, particularly

01:49:08.119 --> 01:49:11.439
as leaders to know how we come across and what

01:49:11.439 --> 01:49:13.039
we think we may be doing for the right reasons

01:49:13.039 --> 01:49:15.600
may not be perceived in the same way for those

01:49:15.600 --> 01:49:19.439
below us. But if there's clearly illegal, toxic

01:49:19.439 --> 01:49:25.600
or deliberately untrustworthy behavior, then

01:49:25.600 --> 01:49:27.539
that's more of a moral issue. And I think the

01:49:27.539 --> 01:49:30.739
moral quotient is something that must be. well

01:49:30.739 --> 01:49:34.680
understood and not tolerated by the organization

01:49:34.680 --> 01:49:37.220
writ large. If bad behavior happens, if people

01:49:37.220 --> 01:49:39.619
are disrespected, abused, then that must not

01:49:39.619 --> 01:49:42.100
be tolerated. And every leader I speak to, where

01:49:42.100 --> 01:49:44.560
they have experienced this, either as leaders

01:49:44.560 --> 01:49:46.600
in an organization where other subordinates have

01:49:46.600 --> 01:49:48.600
behaved like this or whether they've been part

01:49:48.600 --> 01:49:50.939
of the issue, they all to a person said they

01:49:50.939 --> 01:49:54.359
wish they'd acted faster because it's cancerous.

01:49:54.359 --> 01:49:57.279
This kind of negativity and toxicity, if it is

01:49:57.279 --> 01:50:01.159
not addressed, will... either worst case be seen

01:50:01.159 --> 01:50:04.220
by everybody as being acceptable and that can

01:50:04.220 --> 01:50:06.220
lose the trust of everybody of your organization

01:50:06.220 --> 01:50:09.539
and that's clearly very damaging um or it can

01:50:09.539 --> 01:50:11.500
just negatively impact the day -to -day and people

01:50:11.500 --> 01:50:13.800
won't perform or won't want to do the job or

01:50:13.800 --> 01:50:15.920
go the extra mile which we need everyone to do

01:50:15.920 --> 01:50:19.399
absolutely i think where where i struggle is

01:50:19.399 --> 01:50:23.380
almost moral courage it's that Doing something

01:50:23.380 --> 01:50:25.380
because it's the right thing to do. So I'll give

01:50:25.380 --> 01:50:27.760
you a perfect example. You're a fire chief here

01:50:27.760 --> 01:50:31.119
locally and you work 40 hours, nine to five,

01:50:31.260 --> 01:50:33.760
go to bed, go to home, go to bed with your own

01:50:33.760 --> 01:50:37.020
family. And the people that actually running

01:50:37.020 --> 01:50:40.399
the shifts are working 56 hours a week. Because

01:50:40.399 --> 01:50:44.279
of mismanagement, now you've got vacancies. So

01:50:44.279 --> 01:50:47.119
now you're filling these vacancies with forced

01:50:47.119 --> 01:50:49.279
overtime. So now these men and women are working

01:50:49.279 --> 01:50:53.899
80 hours. I struggle to understand why you don't

01:50:53.899 --> 01:50:56.159
have the courage to advocate for those people,

01:50:56.220 --> 01:50:58.220
to get more staff, to improve recruiting, do

01:50:58.220 --> 01:51:00.039
the things that are actionable that you know

01:51:00.039 --> 01:51:03.699
about, but you are okay because you're okay.

01:51:03.819 --> 01:51:07.180
You go home at five o 'clock, so I'm good. And

01:51:07.180 --> 01:51:09.659
it takes moral courage to say, look, just because

01:51:09.659 --> 01:51:12.840
I'm okay, my people aren't at the moment. I'm

01:51:12.840 --> 01:51:15.859
having these suicides. I'm having locally firefighters

01:51:15.859 --> 01:51:19.920
arrested in this particular case. no heads are

01:51:19.920 --> 01:51:21.819
being turned, no questions are being asked. So

01:51:21.819 --> 01:51:24.560
I think that is so, so detrimental when people

01:51:24.560 --> 01:51:27.960
under you are not seeing you fight for them.

01:51:28.279 --> 01:51:30.859
Yeah, or being willing to fill in. I mean, if

01:51:30.859 --> 01:51:32.800
there are gaps, if you as the chief aren't willing

01:51:32.800 --> 01:51:36.020
to maybe roll your sleeves up and take a turn

01:51:36.020 --> 01:51:38.279
on the ladder, even to do something. We used

01:51:38.279 --> 01:51:41.039
to have a general in Iraq who would, he wanted

01:51:41.039 --> 01:51:43.680
to understand what the stresses and strains were

01:51:43.680 --> 01:51:47.170
of the troops in combat. So he would... routinely,

01:51:47.310 --> 01:51:50.130
weekly, go out on missions as a junior soldier,

01:51:50.289 --> 01:51:54.130
albeit as a star general officer, just to experience

01:51:54.130 --> 01:51:56.489
what are the challenges and stresses and difficulties

01:51:56.489 --> 01:51:59.210
of operating in an environment where we're constantly

01:51:59.210 --> 01:52:01.130
being told you've got to reduce collateral damage,

01:52:01.329 --> 01:52:05.649
no accidental death is acceptable. Him then seeing

01:52:05.649 --> 01:52:08.770
it up close and personal about the challenges

01:52:08.770 --> 01:52:13.449
of not being able to see because of smoke and

01:52:13.449 --> 01:52:16.979
whatever dust or anything else. everything just

01:52:16.979 --> 01:52:20.439
going to in chaos so he could better appreciate

01:52:20.439 --> 01:52:22.880
the challenges we face so he could advocate to

01:52:22.880 --> 01:52:25.460
say they did everything they could and I know

01:52:25.460 --> 01:52:27.720
that their processes are always designed to minimize

01:52:27.720 --> 01:52:30.739
collateral but there will occasionally in the

01:52:30.739 --> 01:52:33.199
fog of war be incidents that that are unavoidable

01:52:33.199 --> 01:52:36.640
because it is just really hard so I'm not saying

01:52:36.640 --> 01:52:38.880
that fire chiefs are even allowed to go and do

01:52:38.880 --> 01:52:43.239
do shifts but certainly if I knew that team members

01:52:43.239 --> 01:52:46.210
were having to do double shifts or a detriment

01:52:46.210 --> 01:52:49.369
to their families doing extra work that was starting

01:52:49.369 --> 01:52:51.350
to break them, then I wouldn't be able to sleep

01:52:51.350 --> 01:52:54.409
at night personally if they knew that I was doing

01:52:54.409 --> 01:52:56.489
a 40 -hour week and getting plenty of eight -hour

01:52:56.489 --> 01:52:59.750
REM sleep, ROM sleep, whatever else. Yeah, I

01:52:59.750 --> 01:53:02.329
agree completely. All right, well then with that,

01:53:02.430 --> 01:53:05.069
the first question I love to ask, is there a

01:53:05.069 --> 01:53:07.329
book or are there books that you love to recommend?

01:53:07.489 --> 01:53:09.210
We'll get obviously to yours when people can

01:53:09.210 --> 01:53:11.289
find that, but are there other things that people

01:53:11.289 --> 01:53:15.180
have written? I mean, there's so many. And I

01:53:15.180 --> 01:53:16.960
actually have, I was asked to do a reading list

01:53:16.960 --> 01:53:19.220
actually as part of the book process that if

01:53:19.220 --> 01:53:20.840
people wanted a reading list from me that they

01:53:20.840 --> 01:53:24.100
could get. It's quite long though, so I don't

01:53:24.100 --> 01:53:26.760
know. Do you want fiction, nonfiction? What's

01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:29.000
your thing? Whatever you want. Anything that

01:53:29.000 --> 01:53:32.300
pops to mind. Anything I've read recently that

01:53:32.300 --> 01:53:35.880
I loved. Well, you put me right on the spot here.

01:53:36.000 --> 01:53:37.899
You're going to give me some warning. I'm not

01:53:37.899 --> 01:53:39.420
going to answer very intelligently at all. I

01:53:39.420 --> 01:53:40.760
don't want to just say things that sound clever

01:53:40.760 --> 01:53:42.079
because I don't necessarily always read clever.

01:53:42.909 --> 01:53:49.170
stuff that i enjoy um i do like lots of non -fiction

01:53:49.170 --> 01:53:52.329
um stuff not necessarily memoirs but i like reading

01:53:52.329 --> 01:53:56.310
stories of um particularly resilience i get one

01:53:56.310 --> 01:53:57.970
that's just actually sprung to mind unbroken

01:53:57.970 --> 01:54:00.029
i know there was a movie about this but reading

01:54:00.029 --> 01:54:01.750
the book and i'd read i'd seen the movie and

01:54:01.750 --> 01:54:03.670
it was like yeah and then i read the book and

01:54:03.670 --> 01:54:06.789
it just blew me away just hearing particularly

01:54:06.789 --> 01:54:12.420
stories of resilience and they're The amount

01:54:12.420 --> 01:54:14.859
of time that these people had to endure the things

01:54:14.859 --> 01:54:16.939
that they endured in the Second World War, for

01:54:16.939 --> 01:54:19.100
example, are just beyond anything that we could

01:54:19.100 --> 01:54:21.939
comprehend today. I think, you know, the wars

01:54:21.939 --> 01:54:24.640
or the incidents that we fight, even the things

01:54:24.640 --> 01:54:27.760
that firefighters and first responders go and

01:54:27.760 --> 01:54:30.399
resolve. Generally, they don't last more than

01:54:30.399 --> 01:54:31.979
a few hours. They might be incredibly traumatic,

01:54:32.220 --> 01:54:35.100
not diminishing that at all. But these are months

01:54:35.100 --> 01:54:37.659
or even years in some cases of torture and abuse

01:54:37.659 --> 01:54:41.789
and just chronic, appalling suffering. So when

01:54:41.789 --> 01:54:43.890
I read those kind of things, for me, they're

01:54:43.890 --> 01:54:46.649
really good reminders and levelers that there

01:54:46.649 --> 01:54:48.810
are many people who've gone through far more

01:54:48.810 --> 01:54:51.670
than we have. And therefore, I sort of feel like

01:54:51.670 --> 01:54:55.510
we owe it to them to not be too, not too precious

01:54:55.510 --> 01:54:57.170
is the wrong word, but, you know, just respect

01:54:57.170 --> 01:54:59.149
the fact that there are others that have served

01:54:59.149 --> 01:55:02.090
and done far more incredibly heroic things to

01:55:02.090 --> 01:55:04.050
give us the lives that we have now. And we sort

01:55:04.050 --> 01:55:06.010
of therefore should try and carry that forward

01:55:06.010 --> 01:55:08.390
for the generation after us. So Unbroken is probably

01:55:08.390 --> 01:55:11.500
a good one to suggest. Brilliant. Yeah, I think

01:55:11.500 --> 01:55:14.119
that's it. I mean, when we look, World War II

01:55:14.119 --> 01:55:18.239
was only 80 years ago. So what did that generation

01:55:18.239 --> 01:55:20.560
think about what we're doing with the freedom

01:55:20.560 --> 01:55:22.600
that they fought for, truly fought for? We talk

01:55:22.600 --> 01:55:24.500
about in America, fighting for freedom, but a

01:55:24.500 --> 01:55:27.399
lot of those wars were in the Middle East. But

01:55:27.399 --> 01:55:30.859
in Europe, the UK easily could be speaking German

01:55:30.859 --> 01:55:34.619
now, could be under a fascist regime. two short

01:55:34.619 --> 01:55:37.340
generations later what are we doing as far as

01:55:37.340 --> 01:55:40.020
gratitude and community in response to all of

01:55:40.020 --> 01:55:42.619
that selfless service and lives lost in world

01:55:42.619 --> 01:55:47.500
war ii yeah yeah i mean great comments i think

01:55:47.500 --> 01:55:52.840
i'll be not enough i think that we have to think

01:55:52.840 --> 01:55:58.829
though sensibly about what actually are the communities

01:55:58.829 --> 01:56:02.270
that we need to be supporting today because as

01:56:02.270 --> 01:56:04.729
you said second world war 80 years ago first

01:56:04.729 --> 01:56:07.970
world war very few left um at all from that generation

01:56:07.970 --> 01:56:09.890
people still think when you say veterans certainly

01:56:09.890 --> 01:56:12.689
in the uk people still think of the the chelsea

01:56:12.689 --> 01:56:15.130
pensioners in the red coats you know um with

01:56:15.130 --> 01:56:18.250
their medals going down um king's road in london

01:56:18.250 --> 01:56:21.310
uh or world war ii veterans in wheelchairs with

01:56:21.310 --> 01:56:25.050
you know the metal chests and uh and large berets

01:56:25.050 --> 01:56:28.159
and everything else actually There's a much bigger

01:56:28.159 --> 01:56:31.840
generation that has seen more recent trauma and

01:56:31.840 --> 01:56:37.039
challenge that we've got to find a way of recognising

01:56:37.039 --> 01:56:39.220
that there are those who continue to serve. But

01:56:39.220 --> 01:56:40.619
I don't think we might mention this last time

01:56:40.619 --> 01:56:43.479
I was on, but very keen that we don't turn this

01:56:43.479 --> 01:56:46.579
into a negative thing where people think service

01:56:46.579 --> 01:56:49.039
is going to cause you to break. I think we have

01:56:49.039 --> 01:56:51.420
to recognise, certainly in the UK, where I work

01:56:51.420 --> 01:56:54.460
with more charities than anywhere else, the percentage

01:56:54.460 --> 01:56:57.460
of those that need care and support. is a small

01:56:57.460 --> 01:57:00.560
percentage compared to the vast majority who

01:57:00.560 --> 01:57:02.939
go on to have extremely successful, thriving,

01:57:03.060 --> 01:57:07.739
high -performing lives, careers and jobs in their

01:57:07.739 --> 01:57:10.880
second phase, as it were, once they retire. So

01:57:10.880 --> 01:57:14.239
while we want to give the very best care that

01:57:14.239 --> 01:57:17.199
we can for those who need it across all the uniformed

01:57:17.199 --> 01:57:21.119
and non -uniformed services, we also should shine

01:57:21.119 --> 01:57:24.010
a light on the fact that serving in whichever

01:57:24.010 --> 01:57:26.789
way is your way to serve whether it's volunteering

01:57:26.789 --> 01:57:29.310
or you know working in a pet shelter but doing

01:57:29.310 --> 01:57:32.609
things for others um is what we must try and

01:57:32.609 --> 01:57:35.529
encourage the next generation to fight for and

01:57:35.529 --> 01:57:38.710
recognize the value of because certainly when

01:57:38.710 --> 01:57:40.789
people talk about having purpose or not feeling

01:57:40.789 --> 01:57:42.590
that they have purpose it generally links back

01:57:42.590 --> 01:57:45.430
to not having or having something that is bigger

01:57:45.430 --> 01:57:47.789
than themselves and i think we need to encourage

01:57:48.640 --> 01:57:50.420
and continue to encourage you know from very

01:57:50.420 --> 01:57:52.140
early age that that you know go back to one of

01:57:52.140 --> 01:57:53.180
those very early comments that you mentioned

01:57:53.180 --> 01:57:55.560
about um when we are born and what we what we

01:57:55.560 --> 01:57:57.520
do and how we view the world we've got to just

01:57:57.520 --> 01:57:59.979
bring that back as a core part of the of who

01:57:59.979 --> 01:58:02.819
we are as western civilized societies i think

01:58:02.819 --> 01:58:07.100
100 well we talked about books what about film

01:58:07.100 --> 01:58:09.300
television documentaries any of those that you

01:58:09.300 --> 01:58:11.920
like films i can never remember the films that

01:58:11.920 --> 01:58:14.039
i've watched because i i generally I don't really

01:58:14.039 --> 01:58:16.340
watch films quite often, very often. But if I

01:58:16.340 --> 01:58:18.319
do, it's often because I've got to stay up for

01:58:18.319 --> 01:58:20.020
eight hours on a night when I'm supposed to be

01:58:20.020 --> 01:58:21.840
sleeping, but I'm on a plane to go to a new time

01:58:21.840 --> 01:58:24.340
zone. So I might watch four movies back to back

01:58:24.340 --> 01:58:27.119
just to stay awake. And then some of them I might

01:58:27.119 --> 01:58:29.560
enjoy. Some of them are very forgettable. And

01:58:29.560 --> 01:58:30.840
then I'll speak to friends and I'll say, oh,

01:58:30.859 --> 01:58:32.939
what did you watch? I watched one brilliant movie.

01:58:33.060 --> 01:58:39.159
What was it called? No idea. So do more of the

01:58:39.159 --> 01:58:41.539
kind of the box sets at the moment. COVID was

01:58:41.539 --> 01:58:44.340
very much all the narcos. I did all of those.

01:58:45.619 --> 01:58:47.359
I suppose some of the ones that I really enjoyed

01:58:47.359 --> 01:58:49.560
recently, Black Doves. Have you watched that?

01:58:49.680 --> 01:58:52.560
I haven't heard of that one, no. It's a British

01:58:52.560 --> 01:58:56.000
series, basically some assassins. Keira Knightley

01:58:56.000 --> 01:58:58.539
is a middle -aged mum who happens to be an assassin,

01:58:58.640 --> 01:59:00.180
but her cover is that she's a middle -aged mum

01:59:00.180 --> 01:59:03.689
with kids. And it's a very funny script. I'm

01:59:03.689 --> 01:59:06.250
sure you'll enjoy it. The weird thing that I

01:59:06.250 --> 01:59:08.529
don't, maybe I don't want to spoil it, but the

01:59:08.529 --> 01:59:10.310
thing that really freaked me out when I realized

01:59:10.310 --> 01:59:12.909
halfway through is that the guy who plays her

01:59:12.909 --> 01:59:16.010
partner, assassin partner, he is the voice of

01:59:16.010 --> 01:59:20.090
Paddington, the movie. When you're watching this

01:59:20.090 --> 01:59:22.149
guy do his sort of, you know, his hit jobs, you're

01:59:22.149 --> 01:59:24.390
thinking, you know, Paddington and Mr. Brown

01:59:24.390 --> 01:59:27.789
and all that stuff is a bit weird. So Black Doves

01:59:27.789 --> 01:59:30.350
is a recommendation. Just finished all the Yellowstones.

01:59:31.689 --> 01:59:34.869
I kind of binge watch stuff just to kind of,

01:59:34.869 --> 01:59:37.670
you know, before bed, just watch something. I'm

01:59:37.670 --> 01:59:40.170
not sure what's next on the calendar. I've never

01:59:40.170 --> 01:59:41.750
seen Game of Thrones. People tell me I really

01:59:41.750 --> 01:59:43.609
missed out there. So maybe I should do that at

01:59:43.609 --> 01:59:46.550
some point. We're just watching Yellowstone now.

01:59:46.689 --> 01:59:48.109
And it's funny when you talk about Paddington,

01:59:48.109 --> 01:59:50.649
I can just see him standing over a body with

01:59:50.649 --> 01:59:52.630
a gun in his hand, eating a marmalade sandwich.

01:59:54.270 --> 01:59:57.520
It's very weird, but it's a good one. All right.

01:59:57.539 --> 01:59:59.460
Well, the next question, is there a person you'd

01:59:59.460 --> 02:00:01.819
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest

02:00:01.819 --> 02:00:04.600
to speak to the first responders, military and

02:00:04.600 --> 02:00:08.579
associated professions of the world? Yes. When

02:00:08.579 --> 02:00:10.680
you're talking about fire chief and toxicity

02:00:10.680 --> 02:00:13.140
and the challenge of trying to do the right thing

02:00:13.140 --> 02:00:15.640
for your people, there is a former colleague

02:00:15.640 --> 02:00:18.779
of mine who was in the Royal Marines in the UK.

02:00:20.199 --> 02:00:22.939
Very, very talented officer. He left earlier

02:00:22.939 --> 02:00:25.399
than he should have done, probably. would certainly

02:00:25.399 --> 02:00:28.520
have been a general if he'd remained. And he

02:00:28.520 --> 02:00:33.460
went into public sector and did a lot of work

02:00:33.460 --> 02:00:37.600
in fire and particularly in fire, where he was

02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:40.260
trying to turn around various issues that were

02:00:40.260 --> 02:00:42.520
happening in a particular area. So I think he

02:00:42.520 --> 02:00:44.359
would resonate with some of the things that you've

02:00:44.359 --> 02:00:46.920
highlighted. So I'll definitely connect you with

02:00:46.920 --> 02:00:51.149
him. Ollie Lee is his name. Brilliant. Thank

02:00:51.149 --> 02:00:52.989
you. And then also, I don't know if she would

02:00:52.989 --> 02:00:54.949
be interested, but I think getting Jessica on

02:00:54.949 --> 02:00:56.270
to talk about the book would be another good

02:00:56.270 --> 02:00:59.970
one. Oh, yeah. Jess loves to, would love all

02:00:59.970 --> 02:01:01.430
this. And she's, like I said, her background

02:01:01.430 --> 02:01:04.289
is very much policing and emergency services.

02:01:04.329 --> 02:01:06.350
And she's worked with the Royal Foundation of

02:01:06.350 --> 02:01:10.329
Royal Highnesses, Prince and Princesses of Wales,

02:01:10.409 --> 02:01:13.130
and a bunch of other people. She's from Cambridge

02:01:13.130 --> 02:01:15.430
University. She's just a really good person who

02:01:15.430 --> 02:01:19.050
can turn what is quite high fluting science and

02:01:19.420 --> 02:01:21.720
you know, academic thinking into stuff that even

02:01:21.720 --> 02:01:23.239
I can understand. So that's got to be a good

02:01:23.239 --> 02:01:26.380
thing. Yeah. We call it fireman proof. So perfect.

02:01:27.100 --> 02:01:29.960
All right. Well, the last question before we

02:01:29.960 --> 02:01:32.220
make sure where people can find the book, what

02:01:32.220 --> 02:01:34.979
do you do to decompress apart from sitting in

02:01:34.979 --> 02:01:37.500
the middle of a construction area? Yeah. Sorry

02:01:37.500 --> 02:01:41.039
about that. Um, when I can, I, well, I try and

02:01:41.039 --> 02:01:43.159
I try and stay active and not having a dog at

02:01:43.159 --> 02:01:46.380
the moment is, has made me lazier. When it's

02:01:46.380 --> 02:01:48.640
pouring with rain, it's a miserable day and it's

02:01:48.640 --> 02:01:50.300
6 a .m. and the dog wants to go out, you just

02:01:50.300 --> 02:01:53.079
go. Now I don't do as much of that until we have

02:01:53.079 --> 02:01:58.220
a replacement or the next generation. But I listen

02:01:58.220 --> 02:02:02.229
to podcasts, which people take. make fun of me

02:02:02.229 --> 02:02:04.109
because i do listen to them at twice speed because

02:02:04.109 --> 02:02:05.590
i've got too many that i want to listen to so

02:02:05.590 --> 02:02:07.670
i find that quite relaxing other people find

02:02:07.670 --> 02:02:09.310
it highly stressful if they get in the car with

02:02:09.310 --> 02:02:11.789
me and this podcast is running at twice speed

02:02:11.789 --> 02:02:14.430
like what the hell is this slow it down um so

02:02:14.430 --> 02:02:16.029
i do podcasts and i generally listen to podcasts

02:02:16.029 --> 02:02:18.649
when i'm running uh or walking when i say running

02:02:18.649 --> 02:02:20.789
i'm a slow plodder now because of you know various

02:02:20.789 --> 02:02:23.710
injuries but i do like to get outside so i run

02:02:23.710 --> 02:02:25.550
when i can because i've got so many friends who

02:02:25.550 --> 02:02:27.590
can't run anymore and i sort of feel like i owe

02:02:27.590 --> 02:02:29.670
it to them but i do enjoy just being out there

02:02:29.670 --> 02:02:32.289
i wish i was fitter and faster but you know age

02:02:32.289 --> 02:02:35.489
has its problems um and just just getting outside

02:02:35.489 --> 02:02:38.850
and walking really um i do love reading but i

02:02:38.850 --> 02:02:41.050
don't do enough of it i sort of go through phases

02:02:41.050 --> 02:02:43.270
but yeah just getting outside and that's one

02:02:43.270 --> 02:02:45.310
of the things that i think can help all of us

02:02:45.310 --> 02:02:47.250
just even if it's five minutes or ten minutes

02:02:47.250 --> 02:02:50.090
you know on a busy day and just fresh air or

02:02:50.090 --> 02:02:53.569
fresh ish air and just seeing trees and birds

02:02:53.569 --> 02:02:55.729
and just stuff that isn't your computer screen

02:02:55.729 --> 02:02:58.750
can be quite helpful absolutely i couldn't agree

02:02:58.750 --> 02:03:02.199
more so mindful soldier Firstly, where can people

02:03:02.199 --> 02:03:04.939
find the book? When is it out again in the US

02:03:04.939 --> 02:03:07.859
and UK? All good bookshops. It's available for

02:03:07.859 --> 02:03:10.819
pre -order now. The UK publication date is the

02:03:10.819 --> 02:03:14.779
22nd of January, but pre -orders in Amazon, Waterstones

02:03:14.779 --> 02:03:18.500
and all major UK stores. And then globally in

02:03:18.500 --> 02:03:20.439
the US, I believe it's going to be Barnes & Noble

02:03:20.439 --> 02:03:23.960
and Amazon and all the major bookstores in the

02:03:23.960 --> 02:03:26.819
US. And then globally, if you just type Mindful

02:03:26.819 --> 02:03:29.710
Soldier. Because of the shenanigans that I mentioned

02:03:29.710 --> 02:03:31.609
earlier with the change of publisher, there are

02:03:31.609 --> 02:03:34.029
still some sites that are showing the incorrect

02:03:34.029 --> 02:03:37.289
and the non -existent version, which has a, let's

02:03:37.289 --> 02:03:39.649
say, a more cliparty version of a mountain at

02:03:39.649 --> 02:03:42.750
the bottom. The book that is the one that you

02:03:42.750 --> 02:03:45.470
want to be ordering, if you're interested, has

02:03:45.470 --> 02:03:48.210
a hand -drawn mountain with a climber going up

02:03:48.210 --> 02:03:51.989
the mountain. And as I mentioned earlier, all

02:03:51.989 --> 02:03:54.569
proceeds or all profits that I make, assuming

02:03:54.569 --> 02:03:56.010
there will be any, hopefully there'll be lots,

02:03:56.109 --> 02:03:59.130
100 % of all profits will be donated to international

02:03:59.130 --> 02:04:01.090
veterans charities. So I'm not keeping a penny

02:04:01.090 --> 02:04:03.569
because this isn't about me. So hopefully you'll

02:04:03.569 --> 02:04:05.789
enjoy the read anyway, and you might learn something

02:04:05.789 --> 02:04:08.250
or find it comforting or inspirational or motivational.

02:04:08.670 --> 02:04:10.569
But if not, and you hate it, then I'm sorry,

02:04:10.670 --> 02:04:12.210
but you'll still be helping veterans. So that's

02:04:12.210 --> 02:04:17.699
good. So there you go. Yeah. All right. And if

02:04:17.699 --> 02:04:19.920
people want to learn more about you, follow you

02:04:19.920 --> 02:04:21.619
on social media, where are the best places there?

02:04:22.279 --> 02:04:25.640
I've tried to be simple. So I've got one handle

02:04:25.640 --> 02:04:28.260
that covers all the different platforms. I can't

02:04:28.260 --> 02:04:30.680
say I'm a very good social media person. I have

02:04:30.680 --> 02:04:32.640
TikTok and all these other things, but I probably

02:04:32.640 --> 02:04:35.539
need somebody to help me do it better. But it's

02:04:35.539 --> 02:04:38.479
Ash Alex Cooper, all one word. So at Ash Alex

02:04:38.479 --> 02:04:40.939
Cooper, and that'll be Instagram, Twitter, sorry,

02:04:41.039 --> 02:04:47.640
X, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. Brilliant.

02:04:47.640 --> 02:04:50.180
I just re -followed you because I got my page

02:04:50.180 --> 02:04:53.159
shut down yet again on Instagram. You unfollowed

02:04:53.159 --> 02:04:56.260
me? No, no, I didn't unfollow you. In a year,

02:04:56.399 --> 02:04:59.079
I had been shut down twice. Both times, I mean,

02:04:59.100 --> 02:05:01.180
all I post is usually just kindness, compassion,

02:05:01.420 --> 02:05:03.739
community, and then perspective standing in the

02:05:03.739 --> 02:05:06.380
middle. And I guess the divisive algorithm doesn't

02:05:06.380 --> 02:05:08.460
like it because I had a target on my back twice

02:05:08.460 --> 02:05:10.800
now. So yeah, out of the blue, I was shut down

02:05:10.800 --> 02:05:13.640
completely. And so now it's behind the shield,

02:05:13.859 --> 02:05:20.939
911. 0 .3 .0 so yeah okay well i'll follow you

02:05:20.939 --> 02:05:22.260
back then i didn't i thought i was following

02:05:22.260 --> 02:05:25.079
you already so well yeah no you were twice okay

02:05:25.079 --> 02:05:28.739
all right upset anyone or do upset i mean it's

02:05:28.739 --> 02:05:30.890
good to upset people occasionally I think that's

02:05:30.890 --> 02:05:32.890
the point. I think if you get shut down and you

02:05:32.890 --> 02:05:35.670
know you haven't done anything untoward, then

02:05:35.670 --> 02:05:37.130
you're doing it right. You're shaking the right

02:05:37.130 --> 02:05:40.029
tree. Anyway, I want to thank you so much. It's

02:05:40.029 --> 02:05:43.210
been such an amazing conversation to really explore

02:05:43.210 --> 02:05:45.829
some of these areas that you've written about

02:05:45.829 --> 02:05:47.909
and then look back at some of the things that

02:05:47.909 --> 02:05:49.529
we discussed in the past. It's been phenomenal.

02:05:49.829 --> 02:05:52.510
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous

02:05:52.510 --> 02:05:54.489
with your time and coming back onto the Behind

02:05:54.489 --> 02:05:57.000
the Shield podcast today. Well, I just hope there's

02:05:57.000 --> 02:05:58.340
still some people listening that they made it

02:05:58.340 --> 02:06:01.119
through the two hours of our musings. But thank

02:06:01.119 --> 02:06:02.760
you for the time. I do appreciate it. And I really

02:06:02.760 --> 02:06:04.720
value our friendship. And thank you for everything

02:06:04.720 --> 02:06:06.399
you do to support this community. It's a really

02:06:06.399 --> 02:06:08.880
powerful community. And I would love to do more

02:06:08.880 --> 02:06:11.039
to support you in supporting them. So hopefully

02:06:11.039 --> 02:06:13.020
the book will be some way going towards that.

02:06:13.119 --> 02:06:13.800
So thank you.