A prerequisite to be a sponsor on the Behind
the Shield podcast is you have to bring a solution
to one of our problems. And today's sponsor,
EaseAlert, does exactly that. Founded by the
son of a firefighter, Blake Richardson watched
the impact of sleep deprivation on his father's
health and decided to use modern technology to
address that problem. As you've probably heard
me mention many times, it is pure insanity that
we wake an entire fire station for one crew to
respond. And the way that we're alerted makes
the firefighter stress go from zero to a hundred.
Now EaseAlert has a host of solutions. The first
of which is the wearable tack pod, which alerts
the first responder of an incoming call through
vibration in the wrist. So as you can imagine
in a communal bunk room, only the crews that
need to respond will be woken up. Now they also
have the bunk alert system, which puts vibration
into the bunk itself. There's LED lighting, a
turnout timer, station automation where you can
program bay doors to close or gas stoves to turn
off. And understanding that sleep deprivation
is behind so many things at ALS, a recent study
showed that EaseAlert improves health impacts
by 169%. So if you want to hear more about EaseAlert,
you can listen to my conversation with Blake
on episode 1168 of the Behind the Shield podcast,
or go to easealert .com. Welcome to the Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Geering, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show, Lisa Mason. Now, Lisa
is a career accountant, but she is also the sister
of John Little, an 18 -year Canadian Armed Forces
veteran who took his life on November 22, 2021.
So we discuss a host of topics, from her early
family dynamic, women in wrestling, her journey
into accounting, John's journey into the military,
his own powerful mental health story, navigating
grief, the creation of Operation Talk to Me Johnny,
investing proactively into our nation's health,
and so much more. Now, before we get to this
incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 1 ,200 episodes
now. So all I ask in return is that you help
share these incredible men and women's stories
so I can get them to every single person on planet
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you... Lisa Mason. Enjoy.
Well, Lisa, I want to start by saying thank you
so much for taking the time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh, thank you
for having me. It's a pleasure. So where on planet
Earth are we finding you this afternoon? I'm
just outside Toronto in Ontario, Canada. All
right. Well, I would love to start at the very
beginning of your timeline. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. Yeah, absolutely. So I was born
here in Ontario, a little town called Wallaceburg.
Most people don't know it. I was the oldest of
three to my parents, John and Sharon. And we
were close. We were always, you know, my mom
used to joke that we could live in a refrigerator
box and be perfectly fine because we were just,
we were always around each other. My brothers
and I, you know, always got along pretty well.
We stayed close well into our adulthood. And,
you know, it was really important to my parents
that that be the case. And they really made sure
that they instilled that in us from an early
age. So, you know, my brothers were always my
best friends growing up. We grew up just outside
Sarnia. We moved to a small hobby farm there.
And dad was a truck driver. Mom stayed at home
until we were a little bit older. And so, you
know, we grew up working on farms. spending a
lot of time outside uh you know dirt bikes and
go -karts and all sorts of things like that so
that's you know just a good old rural growing
up i grew up on a farm as well so i can relate
what about sports what were you doing on that
side yeah i was um i played you know, intramural
in like through the schools a bit, um, and then
wrestled in high school. Um, my brothers were
more into hockey and soccer. Um, that was never
really my jam. I was, I worked in and did things
out, you know, I was the responsible older sister
all the time. And, uh, um, and so they kind of
had a little bit more fun and, you know, played
sports a bit more and things like that. But,
um, but I did some, some wrestling and a few
other things. When I think of women wrestling,
a lot of times I think of the stories where the
amazing female wrestlers end up training with
a lot of the male wrestlers just because of the
numbers. Was that something that you did too?
I was really fortunate because our school had
an excellent female wrestling program. It was
one of the largest in southwestern Ontario. numbers
perspective. So it was really good, because we
had women in most weight classes, who were really
able to sort of share, you know, information
with each other. And, you know, wrestling for
for women is a bit different than for men, right?
And the way that We ground ourselves to the mat
and things is completely different from the way
men do. So it was really interesting to be able
to share those sorts of pieces of information.
But certainly, you know, we were close with all
the males on the team and, you know, they were
always very supportive and helpful. So it was
nice because there was that mixed sort of practices
that were happening and we were really able to
share a lot of knowledge with each other. So
it was good. And then, of course, I had two younger
brothers to practice on. So that was always helpful.
What are the differences? Educate me. As far
as the technical side, you're talking about the
different way that you're grounding or pinning.
What are the differences between the male and
wrestling? Yeah, so it's more about how we hold
ourselves individually, right? the way that women
sort of stand and are postured generally in comparison
to men changes that center of gravity for you.
And so the way that you do, you know, the lifts
to get them down or the way that you, you know,
throw your shoulder in can sometimes change a
little bit. And I mean, I'm an amateur. I wrestled
in high school. I'm no expert on it, but there
are differences in the way that you sort of have
to approach. things. And, and then mindset, too,
I think is a little bit different, right? Men
are grow up being sort of tough and rumble. And
so when you enter a ring like that, for a woman,
it's getting the right mindset is really interesting,
because, you know, we're taught to be prim and
proper. And next thing you know, you're in this
singlet, sweating and like, wrestling this other
woman to the ground. And, you know, and I think
it's so interesting, because As a woman, for
me in particular, you know, there's that thought
of, oh, my God, like, I hope I don't hurt her,
but also I want to win. And I don't know if that
comes across for men the same way that it might
for, you know, a more compassionate woman. And
so I think it's interesting just sort of the
dynamic and how you approach the match and how
you approach certain movements because they will
change. If you're wrestling a man versus if you're
wrestling a woman. I think you see that even
if you watch MMA, the UFC and some of the other
organizations, there is a different vibe to the
female athletes. And I feel that. When I had
some of the martial arts coaches on, they talked
about, like Greg Jackson, for example, talked
about you have the martial artists and you have
the fighters. And the fighters, you know, a lot
of times have come off the streets. So they probably
are the ones that aren't afraid to injure the
opponent. And you have the martial artists that
are the ones that you see, you know, could have
broken an arm but didn't and turn to the ref
and say, hey, he's tapping, you know, come on.
But I think you see that more so in the female
firefighters. Oh, firefighters. Female firefighters.
Oh, my goodness. The female fighters. God. Yeah,
I think so. I mean, look, we saw that great boxing
match a couple of weeks ago between that American
fighter whose name is escaping me right now and
and the Canadian just before the Jake Paul and
Anthony Joshua fight. And, you know, I thought
it was really impressive the way that. you know,
they went out and they, they did, you know, the
full three minute rounds and things like that.
But it, it does change a lot about the way that
you approach the fight, you know, and that's
why I think it's really interesting for women
who, you know, haven't maybe trained in that
way or haven't really experienced sort of the
more male dominated sports to be kind of watching
some of these things and seeing it a little bit
more mainstream. Like I, I never knew how long
three minutes was until I wrestled. And then
you're like, Oh my God, I'm only a minute and
a half in. And so I think, you know, it's, it's
a really interesting concept that, you know,
time and. And sports like boxing or wrestling
or anything like that, where it's sort of that
one -on -one combat type of scenario that's,
you know, high intensity, lots of cardio, but
also a lot of strategy and thinking and trying
to make sure that you're in exactly the right
place at exactly the right time is so fascinating
because the mind can do some incredible tricks
in three minutes. It's been amazing to watch
as well the evolution of, I guess, the popularity
of some of the female combat sports, because
you hear this term toxic masculinity. And I think
that's misused most of the time. But there is
that element of my generation's upbringing that
the boys do this and the girls do that. They
wear pretty dresses and we go to war or whatever
the thing is. And you're seeing a complete blurring
of the lines. we need more of the gentle feminine
side in the messaging on the male side. And then
conversely, it's great seeing whatever it is,
whether it's female firefighters and cops or
soldiers, or whether it's fighters or whatever
that perspective that is different than the traditional
female role, I think is so empowering on the
female side as well. Yeah, I completely agree
with you. I love seeing, you know, there's nothing
better to me than going into a hospital and seeing
a male nurse. Or, you know, listening to my nephews
talk about wanting to be, you know, in health
care or do something, you know, more sort of
traditionally female. You know, and hopefully
my niece will grow up one day and tell me that
she's going to be an MMA fighter. I don't know.
Hopefully not, actually, because that would just
scare me. I've seen wrestling matches go wrong.
But I think it's really fascinating how the lines
have blurred and what it's actually doing for
our understanding of the opposite sex. 100%.
Well, what about career aspirations? What were
you dreaming of becoming when you were in the
high school age? Yeah, I mean, I was boring.
Again, that responsible older sister thing always
came into play, right? So from a very young age,
I kind of knew that I was going to be an accountant.
And, you know, dad used to tease me and say,
go be an accountant so that you can help me screw
over the government. And now that I've been an
accountant for 20 years, he's very disappointed
that I've not helped him screw over the government.
No, I knew from probably grade 10 that I was
going to be an accountant. And that's what I've
done. I've gone on to get my CPA designation
and I'm a CFO. Brilliant. Well, I want to explore
some of your work in healthcare as we get a little
bit further in. But before, while we're still
in early life, what about John? Was he always
thinking of the military or was it something
else when he was younger? Yeah, I mean, John
was always one for the rules, right? Hated authority.
So, you know, the military seems a little counterintuitive,
but was always one for the rules. I can remember
a story and my parents like love to tell this
one often, but there was some sort of fight or
something on the playground at school. I think
John was in grade four or five, maybe. And whatever
teacher was on duty that day. didn't see it.
And so, you know, this older, bigger kid was
picking on this younger, smaller kid. And John
went over and basically fought him and put him
in his place sort of thing. And so he actually
got sent to the principal's office for, you know,
standing up to this bully and helping this smaller
child. And so he's like, how does this make any
sense? Like, I did the right thing here. And,
you know, now I'm getting in trouble for it.
And so the principal's trying to explain to him
that he's not allowed to be, quote, the playground
cop. And, you know, had threatened to call dad.
And he was like, good, do it. call dad because
he's gonna be like good for my boy like you know
i'm glad that he stood up for this other kid
and whatever that was always who john was um
you know he he'd give the shirt off his back
to just about anybody um but if you wronged him
you knew it and uh he liked people who played
within the rules it was pretty black and white
with him there was very few gray areas and um
And that's just sort of who he always was. So,
you know, when he started talking about the military
in grade four, after hearing from a soldier who
had been a POW in Bosnia, it was not really a
surprise to any of us that that was going to
be kind of the path that he went on. And, you
know, 18, finished high school and was kind of
sitting on dad's couch, mom and dad's couch.
And dad's like. Get a job or join the army, but
you're not just going to sit here all summer
and do nothing. And so he went that August, wrote
his exams and, you know, was inducted in December
of that year. When you look back now with this
kind of veteran lens that you have, understanding
that a lot of us that. put on a uniform, had
some struggles when we were younger. And the
sad thing is if some of those struggles were
left unaddressed, they became a fractured foundation
as we progress through these professions that
do see a lot of trauma and receive a lot of trauma
physically. Were there any elements that you're
aware of as younger years that you think contributed
to struggles later on? I don't think so. I mean,
John was a smaller in stature kind of guy. And
it's actually widely talked about that he was
a pretty small guy for the army. And so he was
bullied a bit in school. Because of that, right?
He was one of the smallest guys in his year.
Certainly through high school, you get into like
much bigger guys in grade 12 compared to him
as a small grade nine. And so there was a bit
of bullying and things that happened. But John
made friends pretty quickly. People knew where
he stood. So I think a lot of people had a lot
of respect for him. And he never really had a
small man mentality. But he did have a bit of
a chip on his shoulder. And I think, you know,
dad being a truck driver and long haul for quite
a number of years while we were kids, you know,
John was always sort of the man of the house,
right? From a very young age. And I think that
he really took that role to heart. And that led
him also, you know, through his military career
days. And I think, you know, sort of having that.
maybe self imposed stress of like, I have to
protect everybody, probably played some role
in a few things. But ultimately, you know, I,
and we'll talk about this, I'm sure a bit more,
James, but, you know, as I go back over the days
and weeks and months leading up to John's last
day, you know, I can't find anything that really
points to a why and that's always sort of been
the hardest part i know with a lot of people
that we lose when you know they look back and
from the psychological point of view don't seem
to be any obvious markers then the tbi element
you know it seems to factor in did he get any
big hits prior to even entering the military
and ice hockey or anything else oh sure Absolutely.
You know, I had two brothers who were two years
apart. They were constantly hitting each other
over the head. Yeah, I think definitely. Certainly
there was a few concussions and everything growing
up. You fall out of a hayloft because you were
not paying attention to what you were doing or
whatever the case, right? Get bucked off a horse,
those types of things. We certainly saw all of
those. We grew up in the 80s. Yeah, those memes
are real. Helmets on bikes weren't a thing. Well,
then walk me through his journey into the military.
You've got this young boy, physically smaller.
And again, I can relate. I had my growth spurt
when I was 18. So I was the smallest kid all
through school, pretty much. So what was that
kind of on -ramp experience for him? And let's
talk about where he was first deployed. Yeah,
absolutely. So yeah, he joined at 18. He did
his basic training in Saint -Jean, Quebec, which,
you know, it's grueling. It's meant to be grueling.
That's what it's for. But was pretty quickly
posted to Edmonton with the PPCLI up here. And
he loved it. Like, he was a really regimental
guy. So had a ton of respect for the regiment.
Really loved everybody that he worked with. Really
was not a fan of the institution of the military,
but a really, you know, proud regimental soldier.
Quickly got involved. I mean, you know, there's
all sorts of things that different stories that
we could go down with, you know, different training
issues and things like that. But similar to anything
back in those days, there was some, you know,
a bit of bullying when you sort of first came
in and some hazing maybe that happened. But overall,
he really took to regimental life and, you know,
the brotherhood that is the military. and sisterhood.
And so Edmonton, he loved it out there. I mean,
close to the mountains, what's not to like minus
the snow and the minus 40 degree weather, but,
but he really enjoyed it. He had an opportunity
to continue to be creative out there coming up
with logos and painting murals on the side of
buildings for each of the units out there. And
You know, I think to some degree he was really
built for military life. He liked to be outdoors.
He liked to do training. He liked to kind of
stay busy with those types of things. And so
he started driving the LAV -3 when he first got
deployed. That's what he was doing. So he was
deployed in rotation 108 to Afghanistan. I know
less about that first deployment than I do about
the second. And I imagine that's by design somewhere.
But so he was driving the lab, was involved in
a few cleanup crews. So I think that really was
troublesome a few times. And, you know, he had.
A couple of friends die on that tour and not
necessarily with him, but stationed, you know,
in forward operating bases. And when he came
back, I could tell immediately that something
wasn't quite right. We had gone to a concert.
He'd come home for a visit and him and I went
to a concert and it was a big like waterfront
music festival in our hometown. And at the end
of the, he'd gotten really drunk really fast.
And to the point where he had caught the cop's
eyes as we were about to leave. And I was like,
don't worry, boys, I got this. I'm the older
sister. I'll take, I'm getting them out of here.
And so they were fine with that. They let me
get them out of there and with no issue. But
as we were walking away, somebody had lit off
fireworks and he hit the dirt. And I was like,
what? the hell are you doing? Like, and it didn't
really occur to me, because as a civilian, you
just, you don't think about bombs dropping from
the air. Like, it's not something that we are,
you know, have to deal with here in North America.
And, and in most countries, thankfully, but,
you know, it was really odd behavior. And I was
like, so I trying to talk to him. And of course,
at that point in the evening, there was not much
point. And so I got him home. And I took him
out for lunch the next day. And I was like, Okay,
you're not all right. Like as your big sister,
I'm telling you that you are not okay. And we
have to get you help. And this is what we're
going to do about it. And he was like, No. Okay.
And he's like, I'm gonna go back. And I was like,
No, you like you can't go back. Are you? insane
like you're already broken like we need to fix
you first before you can go back um and so you
know he basically said to me like go ahead and
call the padre then if that's what you want to
do but i know what to say so that they let me
go back and i was like well that's not going
to be very useful for me then is it um and so
ultimately you know we just had a heart to heart
about all of the things and um And I just told
him to take care of himself. And so he went back
on rotation 309. And for that rotation, he was
at a forward operating base. And they were part
of the Salavat mission. And so there was a...
Legion magazine writer by the name of Adam Day,
who was stationed with them at the time. So we
actually have a number of articles that were
written by Adam where John, you know, has little
quips or quotes. And if you read them, they're
quite funny because John was always the one to
make everybody laugh, even in sort of the darkest
of moments. And so, you know, they'd be sitting
there and... Some commanding officer would tell
them what they're going to be up to that day.
And then he would basically make a joke about
how it wasn't going to work because the townspeople
didn't trust them yet. And, you know, like with
this whole story and everything. And I think
because of that dark humor, people just really
saw themselves in John. And so they sort of gravitated
and connected with him well. But yeah. And then
when he got back, he. He had a full drinking
problem shortly after he got back and got into
a DUI and ended up having to go to rehab. And
mostly the rehab was for the PTSD, but also for
the drinking. And so he was able to come off
the alcohol, which was good. But the PTSD just
kind of stuck around. And unfortunately, he had
told them that he wasn't ready to go back yet.
His window was up and he was going back. So that's
what happened. He rejoined the base. And while
he was in Edmonton, he was doing really well.
But then he transferred here to Ontario and to
a reserve base that he was sort of overseeing
or helping to oversee. And because it was less
structured. And, you know, fewer guys and things
like that. I think that's when, you know, he
started to have a few troubles and didn't feel
as connected to some of the brotherhood and,
you know, some of the other people that he served
with. And then it was five years or so after
that that he passed. Firstly, going all the way
back to when you first noticed there was something
wrong after the fireworks incident, what year
was that? Yeah, so that would have been 2000,
summer of 2009. Okay, so we weren't really having
a very strong mental health conversation back
then. So had that happened 10 years later, it
might have gone differently. May have, may not
have, still would have known what to say. But,
you know, I can hope that. 10 years later, 15
years later now, that it certainly would have
been a different conversation and there would
have been more avenues. But I think sometimes
the sense of duty with these guys and some of
the leadership at some of these organizations
encourage still that stiff upper lip and that
sense of duty. And so it's, you know, sacrifice
oneself to save. your friends. And certainly,
that's the mentality that most people go into
these jobs with, to some degree, unless they've
got a hero complex. But we know there's a few
of those. But generally, you know, it's sort
of you sort of go into these professions with
good intentions of like, I want to make the world
a better place. And this is how I'm going to
do it. And so I think Sometimes that sense of
duty can get in the way of self -care. It's interesting,
the evolution of my simple understanding of all
this, from all the people I got to talk to, from
Gold Star families to psychologists and everyone
in between. And you look at the beginning of
the conversations, it was PTSD and we're broken
and disorders and all this thing. And then it's
kind of evolved. And now what's interesting is
you can actually tap into that very element of
service. to encourage people to go and seek help.
Because if you look at it as a performance issue
rather than a broken issue, it reframes it completely.
So if someone had been able to have that kind
of thought back then with John and be like, hey,
I want you to go back to Afghanistan when you
are ready to perform at the highest level so
that you don't put yourself in danger, don't
put your men in danger, men and women. And so
let's do some work so we can optimize you again.
And I think if we had that kind of conversation,
a lot of military members, police, fire, et cetera,
would actually take a step back and go, okay,
well, this is for the betterment of everyone.
Okay, I will sacrifice myself by not deploying
so I can work on myself, get to where I'm optimizing.
And working at an optimal level and then go and
rejoin my fire station, whatever it is, rather
than, hey, you're broken. You need to go get
fixed, which is a terrible negative connotation
to it, in which case people would just shove
it down and be like, no, I'll be fine. But we
aren't operating at a high level. We are depleted.
So shifting from some sort of kind of rehabilitation
to. encouraging performance you have the same
exact journey but under a completely different
pretense yeah and i i think that's a really interesting
concept because i mean look you know i i used
the word broken with john back in 2009 and back
in those days that's that's what it was you were
broken um and you know even as you know as shortly
ago as 2018 or 2019, when I was talking with
him and, you know, encouraging him to get help
and whatever, you know, I now see that the way
that I approached the conversation was more about
him not being right, as opposed to him not being
his best self. And, and, you know, I got a lot
of pushback from him in those days. And, you
know, I, it didn't help him. in encouraging him
to get to where he needed to be. And unfortunately,
by the time he realized what he needed, it was
too late. But the, you know, I think, look, and
I say this to a lot of people, breaking the stigma
is going to be an extremely difficult thing to
do in our lifetime. In my nephew's lifetime,
maybe it's a possibility that in their lifetime,
you know, we can break the stigma around mental
health. But in our lifetime, it's going to be
a really big challenge. But I think small things
like reframing the conversation, particularly
as it relates to mental wellness for PSP, you
know, and how we look at it from a performance
perspective, as opposed to a, you know, mental
illness perspective, really changes the conversation
completely, not only for the individual experiencing
the symptoms, but also for the leadership. who
need to support them through it. Absolutely.
Another thing that you alluded to is when he
came back, he was drinking heavily, and I'm assuming
that was contrary to how he was pre -military.
You hear this a lot in the fire service where
you get these people 10, 15, 20 years into their
career, and now they're getting DUIs, and maybe
there's even a domestic incident, whatever it
is. And I always ask people, what were they like
when they got hired? Oh, they were amazing. They
were so fired up. It's like, well, there we go.
So a large portion of the behavioral change is
coming from the profession. But you have these
people, then they start falling off the rails
a little bit. And then like, oh, we've got to
get rid of them. Rather than, okay, well, we
did this to them. So what can we do to envelop
them and help them heal and get them back? Because
the goal is not medical retirement. That's a
horrible outcome, in my opinion. The goal is
to get them back on their feet so they can finish
their full service, be mentally sound, physically
sound, and have a healthy retirement. So having
compassion and empathy for people that are going
through some things, even if they are causing
trouble, even breaking laws, if they were a good
member of whatever tribe you belong to at the
beginning. then you've got to give them every
opportunity to kind of get back on track again.
You can't just discard them the moment the wheels
fall off. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that,
you know, that's one of the things that I think
John felt in his last days. He was in the transition
unit. He was going to be medically released 13
months post his death date had he continued to
be alive. And he was really struggling and we
knew it from conversations. But as we went through,
you know, different paperwork and John was a
writer, he wrote poems and songs and short essays,
like anything, like he just wrote. So if you
could read his handwriting, which was atrocious,
by the way, then you really got, you know, some
pretty good insights into how he was thinking
and feeling and those types of things. And so,
you know, as I sat there going. through every
piece of paper that he had in his house because
you didn't dare throw anything out because it
might be a utility bill on the front, but on
the back, there was a whole poem. And so you
couldn't just take, you had to flip everything
over and look at it. But as we sat there and
cleared out his house and, you know, went through
some of these pieces of paper to figure out what
might be salvageable and, you know, something
that his kids might want later on or that my
parents might want to keep or whatever, you know,
you're reading these things and it was, it became
so much clearer, you know, what it was that he
was feeling about, you know, what do I do now?
He would have been 37 years old, 30, yeah, 37
-ish years old when he retired. That's young.
He had kids that he had to pay. child support
for and um you know and all the things and so
he still needed to work but you know his back
was done his knees were completely shot um and
his brain was fighting him every day And so,
you know, what what do you do next? You have
few transferable skills coming from the military
and the ones that do transfer typically transfer
to police operations. But with his back and his
knees, there was no chance. So now what? And
I think that that really was weighing on him,
you know, as he worked to do a few other things
financially as a result of his divorce. It's
just had a moment that where the mind was bigger
than anything else. When people were talking
about suicide 10 plus years ago, that's even
more recently, but certainly then there was this
conversation of it was cowardly. It was selfish.
How could you think of your family? And I've
had this kind of metamorphosis of understanding.
listening to people that were there. Some who
went through with their attempt and survived,
many who were right there and whatever it was
stopped them. And there's almost every single
one has the same common denominator, but you
don't really hear it discussed front and center
in this mental health conversation. When you
look at the human being, we are wired to survive.
We are wired to reproduce, to protect our children,
et cetera, et cetera. But when you listen to
the voices of these men and women, through the
perfect storm of multiple elements from unaddressed
childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, TBIs, you
know, again, financial relationships, all these
compounding, there becomes a miswiring where
their reality is shifted. And now they truly
believe that they are the reason for the pain
of their loved ones. And if they just remove
themselves, which in that distorted mind, I would
argue is actually selfless and courageous. then
the pain will go away for everyone else. Now,
shift to a healthy mind, of course, that makes
no sense. But in that psychosis, over and over
and over again, if that's your true belief system
at that moment, and you have access to whatever,
like law enforcement, for example, the means
for that, and then you throw in alcohol, which
distorts it even more, you've then got the perfect
storm for a suicide. You have an interesting
lens because you have all this that he's written
as well. Were there any elements of that feeling
of being a burden prior to his suicide? Yeah,
I think so. And, you know, I think one of the
things that he worried about was how he was going
to take care of his children. And, you know,
he was financially... from a pure financial standpoint
in his mind, I believe he felt that there was
only one way to make sure that his children were
taken care of. And that was through his life
insurance. And, you know, I don't know, and I
will never know if that entered into his mind
that night or not. But I know that he had been
dealing with some financial issues that were
scary. As a result of his divorce, he was trying
to, you know, get the mortgage um for the home
that he had lived in for almost six years um
in his own name now that the divorce had been
finalized but as a result but he had to do that
and get his wife's name his ex -wife's name off
of it and there was some pushing from the uh
her lawyer's side to get that done yesterday
and unfortunately child support counts against
you as a debt And so now they were saying, well,
you don't make enough money to have the mortgage,
even though he'd been paying the mortgage for
six years and the child support. And there was
a really real possibility in his mind that he
was going to be homeless. Now, my family would
never have let that happen. And we had already
spoken with him about ways that we could get
around it. On that Friday before he passed, he
finally found out that he was able to get the
mortgage and that everything was signed off and
he was good to go. And he was elated. I hadn't
seen him that happy in I don't even remember
how long because it was just one blow after the
other that he felt like he was going through.
And so I spoke with him that Friday. He was.
Over the moon, happy to finally have that behind
him and, you know, was looking forward to a couple
of things that were coming up. And then on the
Monday night, we got the call and I have no idea
how we went from total elation and relief and
everything else to death. 72 hours later. And
it wasn't until I did the mental health first
aid for veterans course about 15 months ago now.
And that I understood that these big highs are
just as concerning as these big lows. And so
now, like, I look back on it and I was like,
oh, that was supposed to be a red flag. But I
was just relieved because I didn't have to worry
anymore that, you know, he was going to do something
silly because everything was finally working
out in his favor. And that wasn't the case. But
I agree with you. I think that in that moment,
you know. I've debated with people, is it a decision
or is it an action that just happens that you're
sort of unable to stop yourself because of the
programming that is happening now in your head?
And so, you know, I use the word decision. I
don't necessarily mean that it was some, you
know, master thought out plan. I just use it
because I don't think anybody has a better word
for it these days. But, you know, I think that
in that moment, making that decision, And believe
me, in the days afterwards, I was like, you little
SOB, how could you do this to us? And I still
have days like that. How could you be this selfish?
Why would you do this to us? Those types of things.
But I also have a deep understanding of the fact
that he thought he was protecting the rest of
us. And it's why one of the messages that I say
when I do public speaking now is. You know, that
pain that you are feeling doesn't go away when
you pass. It gets broken up and it gets given
to all of your loved ones. And so if that's what
your mind is telling you is going to happen is
that you're going to pass and all of this pain
is going to go away and it's going to be better
for everyone because now you're not going to
be this burden. You know, it's not the case.
You are giving that pain now away. I just feel
like that should be front and center in this
conversation. There seems to be two things that
you hear simultaneously. I want the suffering
to end, whatever that is, the emotional turmoil,
the physical pain, et cetera, et cetera. But
then that feeling of burdensome. I'm now mentally
injured, physically injured. My family's got
to take care of me. I can't earn the money I
used to be able to. I only see my kids half the
time. Whatever it is, it's just compounding.
And that needs to be out there because I feel
like the red flag for friends, family, and the
individual is the moment that you even hear that
little voice start to say, it's your fault. You're
the reason. That's your red flag. Hey, if you're
struggling, reach out, call me. Here's the number.
I've got an open door policy. Bullshit. If you
are starting to believe that you are the burden,
that you are the reason for people's pain, there's
your red flag. And I think that because I've
had people on the show that, you know, that that
was really the big scary thing for them. I've
had people reach out, listening to interviews,
saying the same thing. If you could just get
to that point, I don't think you're as close
to crisis that the moment you're in crisis, you're
not picking up a phone. That's a universally
accepted thing. It's too late by that point.
So if we can see that starting to happen and
that coming up in verbiage and conversation,
you know, how many more people could we save
getting them a little bit earlier? Oh, without
a doubt, you know, and that's why I think a lot
of people have gravitated to, you know, Operation
Talk To Me Johnny's. message is, it really bites
back at that belief that some people might have
that they are the problem and that their family
is going to be better off without them. And,
you know, I joke with people a lot that I'm just
a woman who got on the internet one day and cried
and did 22 push ups. And now I have, you know,
537 followers or whatever it is. But, but the
reality is people I've had people reach out to
me and be like, your story is so unique in a
community where we're all trying to save each
other, but nobody's really talking about what
happens to the families after the fact. And so
when I'm able to post videos of my nephews doing
planks or push -ups for some challenge or whatever
in memory of their dad, people are like, oh,
shit. And, you know, or I tell stories about,
you know, how I'm feeling that day and what his
loss is doing to me. Or, you know, whatever,
right? And people have been like, you know, like,
you saved my life because of you, you know, and
your story, I've realized X. Or, you know, the
number of people who are like, you know, thank
God, you know, I was close. I had the gun in
hand and I was walking out the back door. But
I thought of, you know, my loved ones. And at
the end of the day, I couldn't do it. And so
if our story can be out there loudly enough to
give that person even just one second of doubt
about what they're burdensome to their family
or their friends. then I think it's possible
to save lives. And I have to believe that. And
that's what keeps me going every day. And I think
if we can get more people talking about how,
you know, it's not burdensome to talk and to
listen to each other, then I think, you know,
we've got a lot better chance because the reality
is you're absolutely right. John didn't call
anybody. Nobody knew what was happening that
night. His fiance was in the other room. And
had it not been for the fact that his music just
stopped, she wouldn't have even known anything
happened. But his music ended and it didn't start
back up again like it normally would. And she
went to investigate. And for whatever reason,
he made that choice. His mind took over. I don't
know. He could not get past the fact that he
needed to do what he did. I think there's, speaking
of the families, there's also a lot of value
when we finally understand all these contributing
factors, multiple, that take these people to
this place. And then you start to understand
what that broken mind looks like from the inside.
And I'm using that term broken very compassionately.
Because then I think you're not left with that
guilt and shame of, oh, they were a coward. They
just said they just wanted to just leave it to
us. That's not what it seems to be at all. It's
the opposite. Like we said, there was that belief
that that was a solution for most of them. So
then I hope that it offers some peace to some
of these families as well to go, okay, that wasn't
what my loved one was thinking. They weren't
just saying, screw my family. I'm going to leave
them with all this pain. They thought they were
fixing it. But as we all know, when we drink
and drive, when you do have a concussion, you
can't think clearly. There's a reason why it's
called altered mindset. And it's the same with
this. So I hope even people that it's too late,
they've lost that loved one, can look back retrospectively
and put some more compassion and empathy into
that scenario and hopefully forgive that loved
one for what happened. Yeah, I hope so too. As
I said earlier, I definitely still struggle with
anger. That's my number one emotion when it comes
to John's death. And is it all angry at him?
No, not necessarily. I actually have, I believe,
a true understanding of what he thought he may
have been accomplishing in doing what he did.
And to some degree, I think he actually probably
accomplished it. So, you know, it's hard for
me to to say that, you know, he was wrong in
that moment or anything like that. Certainly,
I would have found better ways to do it. But
but, you know, he made what happened happened
and you can't change that. And I think being
angry about it is. It's an easy emotion for me
because it comes innately as part of the thought
process around it and how upset I am that he's
not here to help me with different things. I
mean, our parents are getting older, you know,
whatever, right? You know, I've got big life
choices that I'm making and he was always my
sounding board and now he's not here. And so,
you know, there's anger that gets involved in
that. Whereas my mom has no anger at all. Anger
has never been an emotion that my mom's felt
as it related to my brother's death. And I think
that that is so interesting because, you know,
it's hard for me to understand how A mother couldn't
be so angry with their child for doing this.
And I think that it really goes to the fact that
we all know John. We know what it is that we
think he was trying to accomplish. And we know
that he would never have done this in some sort
of selfish means. And I think if you can really
get to the crux of who your person was as a person
to you, not to their military or their police
or their fire organization, but who they were
as your brother or your sister or your son or
daughter or mom or dad or whatever, who they
were to you, then you're going to have a much
easier time of... finding some understanding
and some forgiveness there and that that took
me longer than i'd like to say openly on this
podcast um but it took me longer than um than
i would have hoped but i you know i did eventually
sort of get there with that when you were talking
it's funny when we're talking about analogies
i think a recent glaring example of what happens
to an overstressed, maybe even underslept mind
is what happened in COVID. I mean, when that
first came out, think about how that tore friendships
and families apart. Are you pro -mask or anti
-mask or pro -vaccine or anti -vaccine or whatever
the thing is. I mean, it was a full -on Flanders
Field World War I trench warfare and no ability
to stand in the middle and critically think like,
oh, well, this is definitely a real thing, but
the health of the people is a big factor as well.
Okay, that's common sense. That's like good critical
thinking. But the moment people are overstressed,
underslept, and you add all these other things
that create this, you know, tornado in their
mind, their ability to just stand in the middle
and think about it goes away. And most people
weren't suicidal during COVID. But I mean, that
was a great social experiment. What happens when
a mind is tormented, your ability to think clearly
and critically is diminished. Yeah, now we are
seeing a number of mental health cases come out
of COVID. Oh, yeah. Like, you still see people
who are completely terrified now of going outside
because of COVID. And so there is a trauma. And
I think it will be interesting to see what happens,
particularly in the next five years, around any
studies that are done about this. Because, you
know, I believe that there are people who were...
Truly traumatized by some of the things that
happened, particularly up here in Canada, where
we had some really rigid rules. Did Florida even
shut down? We did. Actually, I'm not a fan of
all of DeSantis' things, I'll be very honest,
but I have to give him credit and his administration.
We shut down like everyone else. We took it seriously
by anyone else. And funny enough, we probably
have the highest concentration of elderly of
anywhere in the country. And yet they slowly
opened the tap. So it was, I think, restaurants
first and then gyms followed after that. And
again, there was six feet and all the... ridiculousness
but we were open you know and it did they so
people were communing again they were out in
the sunshine again and lo and behold if i'm not
mistaken we have one of the lowest death rates
of anywhere in the nation but we were vilified
by a lot of the you know californias and new
yorks etc so so yeah so we did we took it seriously
but we kind of followed more like the the swedish
model and it it was a great success because now
we know that if you want to keep people healthy
during a pandemic To tell them to stay indoors,
don't see your friends and family, get fast food
and alcohol delivered to your house and binge
watch Tiger King is not great wellness advice
during a pandemic. So maybe do the exact opposite
next time and you're going to have a much better
health outcome. Oh, Tiger King. I forgot about
that. Yeah. No wonder we were all traumatized
during COVID. Exactly. Our dumpster fire didn't
seem as bad when you watch someone else's dumpster
fire. That was the thing. That's right. But yeah,
you know, I think it's going to be really interesting
to see what happens with some of the studies
that come out, because I do believe that, particularly
in some of the more locked down nations, or more
stringent ruled nations, that there was actual
trauma that people, you know, have because of
being locked inside or, you know, that fear mongering
that that happened. You know, I don't care if
you got vaccinated or not. I did. I had elderly
parents and a father in law who was battling
dementia and we needed it to be able to get into,
you know, long term care and we needed it to
get out of the country. So I was like, I'm getting
out of here. I don't care. Poke me like I drink
and, you know, whatever else. So if I'm not going
to take care of myself that way, well, then what's
this thing going to do? Who cares? But. I know
a lot of people who wouldn't put it in their
bodies and good for them. But I think the way
that the media and, you know, well, the media
basically, you know, pinned people against each
other in terms of vaxxers and anti -vaxxers,
you know, I don't understand that sort of mentality
because. At the end of the day, you're just doing
what's best for yourself and your family. And
I think that if people can't understand that
and we can't support each other in that, then,
you know, societies come a long way in the opposite
direction of where we needed to be. So it'll
be interesting for me to see what comes out of
some of the statistics around mental health numbers
over the next few years and particularly for
children. That, you know, we're in sort of those
primary levels of school during COVID and what
that does to both their social skills, but also
their mental health. I know. I mean, I've had
so many conversations with people about this.
I try and, you know, keep revisiting it because
when we came out with COVID, people were like,
oh, we don't want to talk about it anymore. Wait
a second. You don't want to learn from what went
right and what went wrong so that when this virus
comes again, whatever we call it next time, Sebastian
or whatever the phrases of the day. That's murdering
a bunch of people because they're still sick
because we haven't addressed obesity and the
mental health crisis and the opioid epidemic
and all these other things. We're not going to
learn any lessons from it. But I mean, when you
reflect back now, you speak to a lot of the people,
especially that work with children. Schools were
where most of the domestic abuse and sexual abuse
is reported by children. And we took that away
for a year and a half in a lot of areas. You
know, you've got these poor kids that graduated
right when it hit. that were then given stimulus
checks and then shamed to the moment that ended.
Like, why aren't you working? And we cut their
legs from them. We integrated from school into,
there was no middle ground, no cliff. We just
went from school to first jobs to you're working
your way. They went from school to a year of
handouts and then you're expected to get back
up into the workforce. So we have to take responsibility
of, again, what was done right. I can't really
think of many at the moment. And then what was
done poorly. And addressing, for example, the
American obesity crisis should have been front
and center because we know that pre -existing
conditions were the massive amplifier of whether
you were going to survive or die from COVID.
So this whole trust the science, we care about
people. Well, if you did, Americans would be
getting healthier and healthier, but that's not
the case. So unless we turn around and actually
revisit with these conversations, the physical
health, and in this case, the mental health,
we're just going to, you know, it's going to
be even worse the next time. Yeah. And I think,
you know, COVID brought about, I mean, John obviously
died during COVID. He died in 2021. And it, to
some degree, has a place of blame in his story.
And I think it... it's a really interesting piece
of blame because what had happened was John finally
did start to seek help. He was seeing a social
worker on the base and, and was getting help
that way and was doing quite well. And then this
individual during COVID needed to step back for
their own personal reasons. And, and so the base
was then, um had a vacancy in their social worker
uh slot and they only had one so when this individual
went off um and i don't blame him at all um but
when this individual went off um there was nobody
for john to see and except for you know the doctor
but that she's a doctor she doesn't do um mental
health and So he had tried to get in to see a
mental health professional outside of the base.
But, you know, the military lost the paperwork
a couple times. Everybody's experienced that
one. And, you know, I don't mean to joke about
it, but it's a bit of an epidemic over there
in terms of lost paperwork. And unfortunately,
he was unable to get into help. in a timely enough
fashion. So I don't know what it's like in the
US or when it comes to police or fire, but when
a active military member dies here in Canada,
they do what's called a board of inquiry. And
the board of inquiry basically goes in, they
interview family, friends, colleagues, you know,
commanding officers. whatever and um basically
look into is there anything that could have been
done to to essentially save this person either
from the accident that happened or the suicide
or you know the combat situation whatever it
is and so generally speaking it's a great idea
it's an excellent tool as long as it's being
used properly um And so they went in, they did
this investigation. They came back to us a year,
year and a half later, I can't remember, it seemed
like forever. And, and said, okay, so, you know,
he was doing really well while he was talking
to this social worker, but then the social worker
had to go off because of COVID. And, you know,
whatever personal reasons that related to that
and he couldn't get in to see anybody and you
know the referrals basically went nowhere and
so yep we think that there's a gap you know not
legally or anything but you know we're taking
responsibility for that basically right there's
a gap in our system and we know we know we need
to fix it i was like okay great so i was like
so what's the recommendation and they're like
well we're going to recommend that the base always
have two social workers And that way, if somebody
has to go off, the other person can sort of shift
their schedule around to make sure that they've
got room to at least be able to touch base and
sort of keep treatment going. I was like, great.
When is this being implemented? They're like,
oh, we don't know. It'll all depend on budgets
and whether or not they can actually afford a
second social worker. I was like, what? I'm like,
you have to be kidding me. You know, you know
that this is a problem. You know that this will
potentially fix the problem. But you don't know
if you're going to do it. Like, how much did
you spend on my brother's funeral and moving
and his life insurance and this payment and that
payment and whatever? Like, it's got to be worth
the social worker. But I think, you know, because
of the way that COVID hit. you know, when John
was at home, because he was in the transition
unit, so he wasn't training every day. So he
was at home alone. And, you know, puttering around,
I mean, his fiance was there in the evenings,
but she worked. So he was home most of the day
by himself working on his models or writing a
poem or, you know, playing his guitar or whatever.
But really not being the normal productive individual
that he typically would have been. And Then on
top of that, he loses this social worker because
of COVID related reasons. And so, you know, things
just sort of compounded from there. And I can't
help but, you know, put some blame there to say
like, you know, that it certainly didn't help
the situation. But it's interesting to me where
else we might see sort of that compounding situation
and whether or not we can actually make it better.
going forward well even again my white belt perspective
having you know learned from so many of these
people that come on the show you look at obviously
the the trauma that he saw during combat i'm
assuming there was probably some exposure to
some sort of tbi if not then again the ice hockey
before you've got that loss of tribe when he
leaves you know the the men and women that he
was serving alongside you've got that you know
perceived loss of purpose as he's thinking about
transitioning out or what am i going to do next
you've got the financial strain you've got the
relationship strain then you add in covid so
now you've got isolation then you remove the
social worker and now here we are that perfect
storm that we talked about i'm not saying it's
exactly a cut but if you're thinking about you
know the the the the algorithm that someone's
going to be more likely to be in crisis you're
seeing these pieces And so if a ding dong podcaster
can, you know, see this and like you said, something
as big as the Canadian military or U .S. military
or, you know, the U .S. fire service, we should
be able to put these pieces and go, OK, well,
this is someone we really need to take, you know,
to keep an eye on. You know, we've got alcoholism
and all these other things that are factored
in. And so, yeah, I mean, that that definitely
sounds like that was something that was missed.
And going to what you're talking about as far
as the. The response that you got, and this mirrors
your work in accounting on the healthcare side
too. If there's one term that summarizes most
of the issues that I've seen everywhere, it's
false economy. That people will spend so much
money downstream rather than just invest at the
beginning. And the fire service is a perfect
example. They are bleeding millions of dollars.
Over time, it's filling vacancies for recruitment
crisis, from retention crisis, which is coming
from the fact that they don't take care of their
people and young people are deterred by that.
And then you add in, obviously, the mental health,
physical health, all the injuries, the line of
duty deaths, the disability payments, the lawsuits
from mistakes that we make. I mean, it's just
millions and millions and millions. And I don't
understand why these financial gurus of these
establishments aren't going and saying, well,
hey. If we put in a second healthcare worker
and a social worker, that would help us save
millions and millions. Instead, we seem to let
everyone die first and then go, oh, maybe we
should fix that. And I don't understand why there's
not more proactive thinking in these organizations.
Yeah, I completely agree. And it's funny because
I did bring that up with a regimental sergeant
major up here. he's retired now, but at the time
he was involved to some degree. And, you know,
I said to him, I was like, look, I've got ideas.
Like, I think you just need to sit down with
me. And like, I've got some ideas on how I think
that you can fix some of these things, you know,
like God, these, these guys can't go and take
a shit without asking for permission first. And
then you, you know, put them in the transition
unit and now they're expected to be. civilians
and like make decisions for themselves and, you
know, do all of these things. And I said, I think
there needs to be like the programming needs
to change a bit in the transition unit. And he's
like, yeah, yeah. Budgets, you know, this, that,
that we do have programming. They don't all do
it. And I was like, well, why don't you just
make them do it? Well, we can't. I was like,
but you can make them do all those other things.
Like it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
But anyway, one of the things that I said to
him was. look it, there's 1 % of the population
who joined the military who are going to do it
for life. Maybe, maybe 1%. I was like, why aren't
you talking about, you know, transferable skills
and life after military and whatever from basic
training? Like help these 18 year olds understand.
how they can take their military career into
being productive civilians after the fact. And
yeah, sure, you're still going to have training
accidents, you're still going to have, you know,
bad knees and terrible backs. But, you know,
help them think about what that transition might
look like for them so that they're not 18 years
in like john was and all of a sudden going oh
shit now what am i gonna do um you know how am
i gonna feed my kids and and i said and also
like why isn't mental wellness a discussion from
the first day Like, why aren't you training them
with good coping skills and, you know, all of
these things? Instead, it's good job, boys. Way
to train hard today. Let's all go grab a beer
at the pub. Sure, we all grab a beer after work.
No problem. You know, it's a very North American.
It's really a very global thing to do. But, you
know, we know that mental wellness is an issue.
within the military particularly for those who
go on to deployments and whatever else and so
why aren't we training for that in order to get
the longevity that we need out of them also as
soldiers anyway they haven't started it so clearly
it fell on deaf ears but well this is i've talked
about this in the fire service as well now that
we know in the mental health space, in the psychology,
psychiatry, et cetera, that a large percentage
of us who put on a uniform have got stuff in
our early life. And I say stuff because it doesn't,
A, have to be all bad. And then B, I truly believe
if it's a dress, that becomes a strength. That
really does. It's like that, you know, fixing
Japanese pottery with the gold glue. I think
it adds to your empathy, your resilience, all
the things that we need to be great in the military,
in the first responder professions. So why are
we not having a conversation at the front door
saying the fact that you're all here, you've
probably been through some shit. And we're going
to take that from a bad thing to a good thing.
And we're going to start, you know, working through
whatever it is. And you can come in and talk
about, you know, the Bruins. Or we can talk about
your creepy uncle who molested you when you were
eight. And obviously, maybe you wouldn't present
it in quite that way. But we'll start the conversation.
And then the same way that you do PT as a new
firefighter, a new police officer, whatever it
is, it'd be a mental PT. And you frame it in
a way because when we process this thing, you
will be able to operate at a higher level. You
will be able to search that eight -story apartment
building. And find that child who's hiding under
the bed. You'll be able to be in a flow state
during a gunfight, whatever it is. So we're doing
this to PT your mind. And I think if you frame
that at the front door, that's how you remove
stigma. Because you take it from the broken individual
to forging performance. Absolutely. I totally
agree with that. I'd love to expand on your perspective
when it comes to the financial side. I mean,
obviously you worked in healthcare yourself.
If you're a queen for a day, how do we package
the message to actually get people to start proactively
investing in their people and show the financial
benefit as well? Yeah, I think that I mean, that's
the million dollar question, right? Everybody's
been trying to figure that one out for a decade.
And if I can come up with it in this podcast,
I really hope I get paid for it. I'll send you
a t shirt. Yeah, please. I think, you know, I
think one of the things that we can that we have
to start packaging it through is impact on the
community. And, you know, it's easy to talk about,
or it's, it's a lot of focus is on, you know,
the impact on the individual family impacted
by these situations, or the impact on the individual
going through it, or the impact on the dollars
that are spent as a result of death from suicide.
But we don't really talk about what it means
from a community perspective. And what I mean
by that is, you know, right now we have a shortage
in the military, right? They're having recruitment
issues. Also, they're trying to figure out how
they do that. And if we're not keeping people
strong in the military, in fire, in policing,
you know, paramedics, etc., all of the branches.
then we risk going into a chaos state. And, you
know, with where the world is at, with the ability
to get goods faster, easier, and by goods, I
don't necessarily mean good goods, I mean bad
goods. You know, having those services in place
is so important. And we look at the homeless
crisis and we've got it here. I know California's
got it bad. I don't know how bad it is in Florida,
although I do go to Florida, but I don't see
it as often. Maybe you guys haven't figured out.
I don't know. No, I think it tends to be more
the densely populated cities. Like the city of
Gainesville, for example, up the road from me,
if you go there, there's still a lot of homelessness.
So I think they just tend to be ushered away
from certain areas. I don't think it's even better
specifically. Yeah, that's what I expected. But
so, you know, we have a homeless crisis. And
why is that? Some of it is mental health related.
Some of it is, you know, addictions related,
which probably stems from a mental health illness.
And so I think when you start thinking about
the community impact that we're having, it's
not just about the individual lives that we're
losing, although important. But from a financial
lens, when we start to think about the community
impact, the increase in We call it welfare up
here. And the increase in crime, the increase
in drug usage in the black market or the gray
market, all of those things that now start to
become an issue also have a profound financial
effect on... both the day -to -day citizens,
but also the nation as a whole. And so when you
start to add up those dollars, it becomes an
extremely easy conversation to have in that,
you know, this amount of money that needs to
be invested in, you know, mental health, healthcare,
or whatever. Use mental health, healthcare as
sort of the umbrella. There's multiple facets
within that. being, you know, drug rehabilitation,
you know, psychology supports, whatever, is now
a drop in the bucket in comparison to the millions
or billions of dollars that we're spending in,
you know, overtime for police because we can't
keep them on the benches because, you know, they're
out with PTSD or they're, you know, they're quitting
because they just don't see a life in it. They
want and but now we've got an increased crime
rate. So you have to have more police on the
front lines to begin with. And then, you know,
and that's leading to different things. And then
you've got these encampments that are going up
in flames because the homeless crisis is so bad.
And, you know, they're cooking in tents in the
middle of winter. And and, you know, you have
these people who are. you know, potentially dying
in these encampments because of these fires that
start to happen. And you've got, you know, fire
and paramedics who all need to be on the front
lines for that. But they're also short staffed
right now. So you start to think about these
bigger community issues and tally it all together
and really realize that the middle hub. Going
out with all of these spokes to all of these
different problems is mental health. And if we
could just fix the problem instead of putting
band -aids on the symptoms, then the amount of
money that we spend would be far less. I've used
that example. Another great analogy is the NHS
in the UK, which I grew up with in the 70s and
80s when I was tiny. It was amazing. And that
was when it was fully funded and supported and
hadn't been privatized yet or partially privatized.
But also the British people were healthy back
then. And if you look at it today, partial privatization,
the obesity epidemic has exploded in the UK.
And there's always this thing, oh, we need more
money, we need more money. And I disagree. You
need to make British people healthy again. So
what are you serving in the schools? Are there
still PE programs? All the kind of elements that
contribute to this. What is your stance on all
these fast food companies just saturating your
market? How can we get back to how we lived in
the 70s and 80s? And once you free up all that
money, well, there's your money to support all
the other things that you need. So it's not a
bad. And America is obviously even worse because
we are 73%. obese or overweight now i think it's
43 clinically obese 43 so there's your money
you make americans healthy again i think someone
told me the other day that our health care is
20 of our gdp so we don't need any more money
the money is there it's just proactively investing
and if we bolstered pe programs and sport programs
not only in schools but in communities where
you didn't have to spend a hundred dollars to
rent a field for your kids to play and you put
real food back in schools and you pedestrianize
downtowns and work more on public transport and
all these other things, you would turn everything
around and there is your money. You look at the
way Portugal decriminalized addiction. They took
the money on the failed war on drugs and they
put it into addiction counseling, mental health
counseling, job creation, housing. And in eight
years, they turned theirs from the worst to the
best in either Europe or the world. I still need
to look that up. But incredible turnaround. So
it's not about more money. More money to pay
for the same shit that you're doing isn't going
to fix anything. But you take the money that
you're bleeding and you put it at the front and
you invest, as you said, in these proactive preventative
programs. Then you have all that money downstream
that you're not wasting anymore that you can
put and amplify your solutions. Well, you know,
I think it's interesting because in the Canadian
market, we have universal health care up here.
And so, you know, it's free. Um, but it isn't,
it isn't necessarily, well, first of all, people
don't understand how much tax we pay to go to
our healthcare. Um, but that's a, that's an accountant
question for a different day. Um, but you know,
one of the things that strikes me as odd is mental
health, healthcare is not free. Really? No. So
there are small, short programs that you can
do. For instance, you know, I had a difficult
time a couple of years ago through burnout at
work and dealing with my brother and my father
-in -law just passed. And I just basically reached
my breaking point and had a call with my family
GP. And she's like, I'm sending you a letter.
I'm sending a summary of your chart. You need
to go to emerge. Like we have to get you in with
a mental health care specialist. And the fastest
way to do that is to go through emergency. So
off I went through emergency, sat there for five
hours. And by that point, I had cried for so
long that I was just exhausted. And they're like,
well, you can sit here for another three more
hours and, you know, maybe talk to somebody,
maybe. Or you can take this green piece of paper
and come back tomorrow. And I was like, I'm taking
the green piece of paper and I'm coming back
tomorrow. You know, I had my husband with me.
They knew that I was safe. There was no issues
that way. But, you know, as I'm about ready to
leave, would you like an Ativan? No, I'm good,
man. That's not going to help me. And it's done
with the best of intentions, but they just can't
help you. And so then I got into this program
at the hospital to help with coping skills and
stress management. But it's a defined three or
four sessions. And then you can maybe get yourself
into another program, but you have to see the
psychologist first and you get to see him once
for free. But then after that. you know, because
you've gone through emergency. But then after
that, it's not free. And, you know, up here,
it's a psychologist or a psychiatrist will run
you on average, probably about $250, $275 an
hour. And who has money for that after all the
tax we pay to pay for our healthcare system?
And so, you know, it's very frustrating to me
when You know, we talk about, oh, you know, health
care and, you know, we're spending so much money
on health care and we need more money for health
care when many of the issues, including obesity,
stem from mental health challenges. But we're
not addressing any of that as part of our health
care. And it's not something that we do. Oh,
you're feeling sad today? Here, take some SSRIs.
That's it. That's the extent of our mental health
healthcare. And I think that it's such a miss
when we know that so many problems, anxiety,
depression, all of those things are all big contributors
to employee um productivity issues and um substance
abuse so like it's an easy conversation and i
don't understand why nobody else gets it well
and there there are models where all these things
have worked like the nhs again don't look at
2026 but when it was fully supported was i would
argue the best health care system on the planet
All of us are going to stay healthy so that anyone
who needs help, we're going to chip in. You're
all going to get help because one day it'll be
our turn. If you're worried about turns, you'll
be old. You'll get hit by a bus once if you went
to Valley for money. But I'd rather be healthy
and help other people personally. But yeah, so
when people are pregnant, when God forbid they
do get cancer or they do have a nasty accident
or they're just simply end of life. They will
take care of you. That's the ultimate, it takes
a village model. And it's beautiful. And if you
look at places that have done it, going back
to Portugal, people go, oh, well, you know, drug
users are criminals. Well, no. Addicts are, you
know, it's a mental health issue. And if they
commit other crimes, then yeah, that's a crime.
If they beat someone up and steal their purse,
separate conversation. But what happened in Portugal
is by putting their addiction into the hands
of the mental health, you know, the medical community.
Now, what do you think that did for law enforcement?
All of a sudden, there's all this time now for
their police to chase the dealers and the smugglers
and the child sex abusers and all the people
that our police should be pursuing. Rather than
if you look at cops in the 90s, a TV show, car
chase, you know, beating them up. And then, look,
see, there was some marijuana. You know, that's
that's how it used to be. And that's taxpayers
money. So when you put it in the right area.
all of a sudden, like you said, it frees up all
these resources for other things. And now you're
doubling down on the things that actually need
to be addressed. And I couldn't agree with you
more. I mean, there's a great story Johan Hari
wrote about in Chasing the Scream. And I'll kind
of summarize it. They did an IV study on obesity.
So they gave all these subjects just IV nutrition.
And they had this one woman, I think her name
was Amy, who was a rock star of the group. And
she lost the most weight. And then one day she
just disappeared. And they finally tracked her
down and she'd started eating again and ballooned.
And one of the researchers was astute and sat
her down and said, well, when do you remember
starting to eat the way that you did? Oh, I was
about 11. And he said, was there anything significant
that happened to you when you were 11? She said,
yeah, that's when my grandfather started sexually
abusing me. So psychologically, she got to the
point where she was slim. had started getting
attention of the opposite sex again, and it put
up the fight or flight response, and she didn't
want that. So she ate to remove that. So, you
know, and then we all know, obviously, the dopamine
hits and all that stuff when it comes to the
fast food is engineered to prey on that. So I
couldn't agree more. Even the obesity crisis
is partly, you know, the mental health crisis
and obviously the environment too. If you've
got no activity and fast food everywhere, of
course. You're a product of your environment.
If we can change that environment, too, and address
the mental health side, you would save trillions
of dollars. Well, and I think, you know, like,
look, we're I don't know what the US is doing
right now. I don't pay that close of attention
because who knows what kind of information you're
getting on the news these days. But, you know,
we've got this carbon tax up here on, you know,
on. fuel and things, or we've had it, they've
decreased it or gotten rid of it finally now.
But, but we had this massive carbon tax up here,
because, you know, we were going to save the
planet with it. And, but we don't have a fast
food tax. But think about the money that you
could generate for the healthcare system to deal
with eating issues. And, you know, addiction
issues and whatever else, if you started taxing,
you know, unhealthy fast foods and whatever,
they would have to come up with some calculation
for that, I'm sure. But start taxing unhealthy
fast foods that so that, you know, fast food
is now not cheaper than an apple. Like, why is
a Big Mac cheaper than an apple? Somebody explain
it. I don't think it is anymore. I think there's
been a shift. I mean, now if you go to a fast
food place and try and feed a family of four
and then go to the grocery store, I guarantee
you could feed your family cheaper at the grocery
store now, which is a great thing. It is a great
thing. But the problem is, is it wasn't for so
long. And now we're all addicted to it. If we
continue to make it more expensive, eventually
you have to drive people back. And so I think
that's where we, you know, I think that's a miss,
right? Like, let's start, if we're going to have
these governments, particularly here, who are
going to tax people into the behaviors that they
want them to have, like, this is one that we
need to think about. We need to be eating healthy.
We need to be, you know, exercising. And I'm
not I need to do that more to myself. Really
great up here on my pedestal. But, you know,
we need to be doing those things and and then
taking that money and using it for the betterment
of the mental health of our people, because ultimately
that is going to make our community stronger.
Absolutely. Well, I want to kind of go back to
November 22nd, 2021. Walk me through how you
now were able to navigate that grief. And I'm
sure it's not over yet by any means, but start
to trying to get around that yourself. And then
how did that lead to Operation Talk To Me, Johnny?
Yeah. It was a Monday. It started like any other
day. I was crazy busy with work. Back in those
days, my husband and I are both professionals.
We put all of our eggs into our work basket.
We don't have any kids. We work a lot. We work
70, 80 hours a week. It really drove our life.
I can remember leading up to the 22nd. having
these nightmares that actually my father passed
away and you know we hadn't been to see them
in you know a couple of months and you know how
dare I basically this guilt that had come up
because you know I lost this person because I
hadn't prioritized them in my life and um and
so you know it was kind of unsettling and but
My parents were always very supportive of my
career, so I just sort of kept doing what I was
doing. And I realize now it was a bit of a warning.
And I wish I had have listened to it a bit more,
but hindsight is what it is. And so I spoke to
my parents. I was having some sort of inner ear
infection and had to go to the doctors. But I
was trying to work and do all of these things
because we had this big restructuring that was
coming up. And I was front and center in all
of that. And so I spoke to my dad that evening,
gave him the update on how I was feeling, went
to bed early that night. And because I was so
stressed out and getting so burnt out with work,
I actually had my phone on that like do not disturb,
like bedtime feature. And which I loved back
in the day. And now I refuse to use ever again
because my parents called me, but they called
me from different phones. So at midnight, my
parents started calling me after the OPP had
shown up to give them the news. And dad called
me and then mom called me. But because the same
number didn't call back to back, it didn't come
through. And had it not gone to my watch, I wouldn't
have even gotten the call at all. And so I remember
looking at my watch and being like, dad's calling
and then seeing the time and knowing immediately
like my. throat like my gut just lurched I knew
that something was terribly wrong and um I was
like holy shit like this dream is coming true
something has happened to one of my parents and
so I got on the phone and I immediately and didn't
say hello didn't say anything it was dad what's
wrong and um and he he said your brother hung
himself and I was like what the And I just screamed.
And my poor husband jumps out of bed having no
fucking idea what's going on. Sorry, I hope I'm
allowed to swear. No, you are. And, you know,
and whatever. And so my dad's like, is Tom awake?
And I was like, yeah, he just woke up. And he's
like, give him the phone. And I was, okay. And
I was just in this state of shock. and like complete
disbelief. I couldn't figure out if I was just
having, you know, the worst nightmare of my life
or if I was actually going through this. And
so dad got on the phone with Tom and, you know,
explained to Tom what had happened and, um, and
told him like, just take care of her, just take
care of her. And, uh, and Tom's like, yep, no
problem, John, don't worry about it. And my dad's
name is also John. And so they got off the phone.
And we just sat there and I couldn't breathe.
And so my husband just kind of hugged me for
a few minutes until I could, you know, catch
my breath and, and, you know, kind of come back
to my body a little bit. And he finally looked
at me and thank God, he's like, should we get
packed? And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, that's
what we're gonna do. And so, you know, we got
up, we got packed. and put through a bunch of
stuff in, you know, duffel bags. And we were
out the door. And at that point, I was living
in Toronto and my parents were about three hours
away. And so we finally arrived at their place
about four o 'clock in the morning. And I remember
pulling in and every light in the house is on.
And mom and dad are just sitting on the couch
and they had decorated for Christmas. They had
just decorated for Christmas that day. And so
you walk in and the stockings are all hung up
and the Christmas trees lit up and, you know,
whatever. And it's like, oh, oh, yeah, that.
And so anyway, we sat there and we really didn't
say much at all. You know, we gave each other
hugs, of course, and cried and and whatever,
and just sort of sat there for a few minutes.
And then the phone rang. And it was organ donation
calling to find out if we wanted to, they couldn't
take his organs, but they wanted to know if they
could have, I don't know, his skin and something
else. And so mom's like, absolutely not. And
so I was like, okay, I'll call you back. Let
me call you back. So anyway. I we got off the
phone with them, sat my mom down, had a conversation
and she was like, no, I can't do it. I can't
do it. And I was like, OK, no problem. You can't
do it. Fine. And so they called back a few minutes
later and said, like, sorry, but, you know, we
have to make this decision now. And I was like,
yeah, unfortunately, we're not going to be able
to go through with this. Which is like such a
surreal conversation to be having when only three
hours before that you found out that, you know,
your your brother is gone. Right. And now you're
trying to talk to your parents about whether
or not they're comfortable with donating any
part of his body to research. And, you know,
and in that moment, you know, watching my parents
break like that in a way that I had never seen,
you know, they had both lost their both their
parents. already. And so I had seen those vulnerable
moments growing up with them. But to watch my
parents break in this way that I could never
imagine was the worst feeling of my life. And
so We all just kind of sat there and it was like,
okay, who do we need to call? Well, we need to
call his lawyer because we need to get a few
things figured out that way because he was still
battling with his ex -wife. We need to call family
responsibility office because that's who she
wanted to go through for the child support payments.
Ask them to please not take that out of his bank
account because there won't be any money going
in. And, you know, we need to call the base and
we need to let them know. And, you know, starting
to make this list of like who we have to get
in contact with. And so, you know, you have to
kind of sit there and wait for an appropriate
hour because everything's really important to
you. But nobody else gives a shit at four o 'clock
in the morning. OK. And so finally, at eight
o 'clock, I called the I called the base. And,
you know, talk to a couple of really very friendly
people. But they don't know what to do with that
information. It doesn't typically come to them
that way. And so our situation and our experience
was extremely unique, not in a good way. And
I actually had to call the base three times to
tell them that my brother had passed before we
got any action happening. It was really a frustrating
moment. And one of those moments where I think
it helped lead me to some understanding of what
he was dealing with. Because, you know, he was
trying to get that help. He kept going in and
asking for referrals to get help. And he kept
sort of getting the runaround. And that's kind
of what I got when I was trying to notify them
of his death. And, you know, I don't blame any
of the guys over there. I've spoken with many
of them since then. But it was just a shit show.
And, you know, called everybody else that we
needed to call. And and then, of course, people
just started converging on the house. And, you
know, we had to go over it at nine o 'clock after
the kids had gone to school and knock on his
ex -wife's door and let her know that her children's
father had passed away. And, you know, it was
one of those situations where. You know, she
didn't really like us and we weren't exactly
friendly with her. And so it was, you need to
know this. We want to support the boys how we
can, but also you're going to have to keep some
distance here because now feelings are really
raw and we don't want anything happening that
we can't take back later on. And so she thankfully
respected that. And we, my mom and I went over
later that afternoon. And sat with her and her
parents. And the boys came in off the school
bus. And his oldest son, who's so much like him,
comes in and goes, who died? And so anyway, we
asked them all to come over and sit down with
us. And we told them that their father. had passed
away. And I can just remember one of them taking
off like a shot in the other direction into his
bedroom, slamming the door, you know, all of
their reactions were so unique. And it was absolutely
gut -wrenching. Probably one of the hardest conversations
I've had to have. And so we sat with the boys
for as long as we could and then, you know, went
home. And the next day we drove up to Owen Sound
where he was based at the time and because we
needed to get his clothes and things for the
funeral home. And so started to gather those
things up. And a lot of his buddies were already
at the house. They had cleaned up most things
so that we didn't see any of that. And, you know,
started to pull some things together for us that
they knew that we would need and started pulling
some things together for his kids, hat badges
and cat badges and, you know, things like that,
so that they could make sure that they had enough
for all four of them and things of that nature.
And I can remember sitting in his house and just
sitting there and having this like, really heavy
feeling. That was so much heavier in that particular
space than it had been sort of leading up to
it. And, you know, we're all sort of bickering
at each other and nobody's really knows what
they want to do. But everybody knows they want
to do something and nobody can figure out what
it what it's going to be. And it was one of the
few times where. You know, everybody was sort
of bumping heads a little bit in my family. And,
you know, usually there's one or two, but there's
there's never like everybody's sort of, you know,
in this moment. And finally, we all kind of sat
down and called each other on our shit. And,
you know, and it was like, no, like, we need
to stick together through this. Like, that's
the only way that we're going to survive this
in any sort of way. And so we did. And, you know,
I went with my parents and his fiance. um, to
the funeral home and we made the arrangements.
And finally a day later, the military showed
up and was like, so we're going to start making
the arrangements. And we're like, you're too
late. We're done. Like Saturday. And, uh, and
I couldn't believe it because they come in, they
infiltrate your house. There's like five of them.
And, um, you've got the Padre and then you've
got the designated assistant, which is the. like
civilian conduit, basically, for everything death
related. And, you know, an RSM and somebody else,
whatever, all come in, they sit at your kitchen
table with you, they start to talk through the
process. And then they're like, Oh, like, you've
already done everything. And we're like, Yep.
And they're like, Okay. And so then they take
a look at the obituary that I did. And they're
like, Oh, you're gonna have to change this wording.
It's not technically correct. It's like technically
correct to who? They're like, well, this, you
know, this means something different in the military.
And I was like, but it's mostly civilians who
are going to read this. And anyway, they changed
the obituary. I couldn't believe it. And to suit
the like military proper wording, which to some
degree I get now, but also like in that very,
very dark hour, like. really was it that important
you couldn't just let that one go today could
you like especially since i'm sorry but i don't
know what happened at your guys's end but you
screwed this all up to begin with you're two
days late and a dollar short guys like i don't
know what to tell you and um so anyway later
grew to like understand their roles a little
bit better relaxed a little bit but there was
a lot of anger in those first couple days and
um You know, and we got through the visitation.
And for me, it was one of those things where
as you're going through it, you know, you're
standing there. It's like most, you know, visitation
receiving lines. You're kind of numb. You're
just shaking hands. You know, I did it with my
grandparents and whatever. But then certain faces
would, you know, obviously bring up more challenges.
For us, the issue was we didn't recognize a lot
of the faces because we didn't know who John
worked with. And he really kept that piece of
himself very quiet and, you know, really separated
the two things. So this was home life and this
was military life and never shall the two meet.
You know, I laugh because some of the guys even
today are like, oh, we didn't even know John
had a sister. Thanks. And but, you know, all
of a sudden these guys show up and and they're
shaking hands with my brother who was just before
me and receiving line, my youngest brother. And.
And they're like, oh, yeah, we're, you know,
so -and -so and whatever. And, you know, we work
out in Alberta, but we worked with John in the
military and now we're in wind energy and whatever
else. And I was like, excuse me? And they're
like, oh, yeah, like we work in Alberta. And
I was like, but you live here? And they're like,
no. And I was like, okay, so you hopped a flight
from Alberta last minute to come to a 30 -minute
visitation? Because it was COVID. So you had
30 minute slots. And they were like, yeah. And
I was like, okay. Like, I was like, well, you're
here. So you might as well stay for the funeral
tomorrow. And they're like, oh, no, no, like,
we can't. You know, we got a flight at four o
'clock. So we'll never make it if you know, if
we come for the funeral. And because we didn't
have the funeral posted, because we had number
restrictions. So nobody knew when the funeral
was. And so anyway. I'm giving the eulogy the
next day. And as I start to give the eulogy,
these three guys walk in. So they had changed
their flights back to Alberta in order to be
there for the funeral. And so, of course, we
had gotten to our max on numbers in the funeral
home. And my youngest nephew and I walk out first
because he was carrying the cap and the medals.
That my brother had and out to start the funeral
procession. And as I got outside, there was all
of these reserve individuals from Owen Sound
who had come down and were standing outside waiting
to go to the cemetery. And I was just like, what?
So we went to the cemetery and then they do this
thing at the cemetery where in order of rank,
they salute. before they leave the gravesite.
There were so many of them. So we stood there
and watched that for a few minutes in the warmth
of the car and before we went over for the luncheon.
But, you know, it was one of those things where
as you're going through it and you're starting
to meet all of these people that you didn't know
even existed a week earlier and having these
conversations with them about John and about...
the influence that he had on his, on their life
and about, you know, how his death was impacting
them and things like that. You really started
to understand the dynamic and the brother and
sisterhood that is the military that is so unique
to, you know, military police fire. Like we don't,
you know, I don't get. I sure I'll go for a beer
with the people that I work with. But, you know,
I'm not and I would be sad if they passed away.
But it's not going to have the same impact to
me as a civilian that it would that it seems
to have in these other scenarios. And so as I
was going through, you know, post John dying,
I. Was just looking for some way to stay connected
with him. And because I couldn't now connect
with him as a family member anymore because he
wasn't there to sort of run things past and,
you know, whatever. I got drawn to this side
of him that I never. got to really experience,
which was the military side. And so to this day,
I stay in touch with some of his best friends
from the military. I, you know, we randomly text
each other, or, you know, we'll meet up for coffee
or do whatever. And, but Because of that, I started
following certain people on the Internet, and
then that led me to following other people on
the Internet. And one of the groups that I started
following was All OK out of Ottawa. So Matt Russell
is our former RCR now. He just retired. And him
and his wife, Fadi, started this awareness brand,
really. In February, they've historically done
a 22 push up challenge on February 22. And so
I found out about this through somebody and was
like, Oh, okay, well, I can't do 22 push ups,
but I'm going to try to do 22 push ups. And john
died on the 22nd. So 22 is really an important
number for me. And then I learned why it's 22
push ups. And that's because the number of military
who are presumed to die by suicide on a daily
basis. Although we're, we're pretty sure the
number is significantly higher than this now
in the U S is 22 a day. And, um, so I was like,
okay, now I know this plus 22 is important because
of John. And, you know, this was going to be
the 15 month, you know, anniversary of, or Memorial
day or whatever. And, uh, so I was like, this
is what I'm going to do. I knew 22 pushups for
22 days. Um, and I'm going to put a song and
a story to every single day. So I can't do 22
pushups. And if anybody can find them on my personal
Instagram, they are bad. They are very bad. But
for 22 days, I followed through with this plan.
And, you know, I started having people follow
me and reach out to me, make sure that I was
okay. And then I had this guy who's former military
and police on the East Coast start taking the
same song that I chose and doing his push -ups
to that song also. And so for 22 days, I really...
started to feel a connection in this community
of, you know, first responders and veterans who
are all trying to spread the same message about
mental wellness. And I was like, Oh, okay. And
then I started meeting up with some of them.
Cause you know, that's super safe to do meet
up with people that you meet on the internet,
but you know, they're all cops and firefighters,
so it's gotta be fine. That's right. And. That's
when I got the idea that, you know, my parents
and I should do something bigger. That's what
John would have done. He would have helped people.
And so how could we do the same thing? And so
in May of 2023, we officially launched Operation
Talk to Me Johnny. So Talk to Me Johnny comes
from a... article that was written by a gentleman
by the name of Jayla Joy, who worked with John,
actually served with him up here in the Canadian
military. But he writes for the Havoc Journal
in the US. And he wrote a story in January of
2022 about John's death. And, you know, how he
sort of felt about it and whatever. And it was
extremely impactful to me that somebody would
do this. And the title of the article is Talk
to Me, Johnny, which is a Rambo reference for
most people catch that. But for those who don't
know, it's a Rambo reference. And so it seemed
perfect for the name of the organization. So
we started Operation Talk to Me Johnny in November
of 2023, which would have been his two -year
memorial. We did a ruck march, and it was really
important that this first event that we did really
represented John. And so we rucked from the Sarnia
Armouries here in Ontario to the Wyoming Ontario
Cemetery. With the Sarnia armories being the
place that John wrote his entrance exams for
the military and the cemetery being where he's
buried. So a sort of. nod to how his career started
and how it ended. And we were so fortunate to
have a ton of family support and some really
good community support. And we were able to get
78 people to walk the full 24 and a half kilometers
with us. We had a few more join us at the last
stop and do about five or six with us. We raised
$15 ,000 for a couple of partners, veterans and
everyday heroes up here who help get service
dogs for veterans and first responders. And another
charitable organization in Manitoba called Forging
Ahead, who does metal work as like an artistic
outlet for PTSD. So the overwhelming support
was, okay, like, yes, we need to do this. We
need to formalize this. And so we did we formalized
it into a nonprofit organization that year and
have since started doing community family friendly
events. So last year was our first year we're
planning for May of this year, but it's a sort
of like a family fun day where you can come out
there's You know, all the first responders are
there. Hopefully I can get the military there
this year. And so you can interact with all of
these individuals, well in their uniforms, but
really in this like fun setting. Hoping to bring
some of the humanity of these individuals to
the day. We're hoping to have a wellness tent
this year where you can do yoga and meditation
and learn to do some of these things that are
good coping skills. And then we've got a lot
of organizations that come out either that are
veteran or first responder businesses or that
support veteran or first responder businesses
and mental wellness that come out. And so we've
got a bunch of vendors out and then, you know.
Nothing's complete without a bouncy castle and,
you know, a giant slide and things like that.
And then we cap the afternoon off with an obstacle
course. And so this is sort of my nod to the
dark humor of all of, you know, first responder
and veteran organizations. And so. There is a
physical piece and then a piece that sort of
makes fun of each of the groups. So the military
person in this obstacle course has to go under
like a netting and do like an army crawl. And
then they have to jump up, run to a hula hoop
and shine their shoes. You know, the cop has
to write a ticket and eat a donut. The firefighter
has to run with a fire hose, which we were grateful
to have a couple donated to us. And then, you
know, strike a pose for the firefighter calendar,
things like that. Right. So it's all meant to
be in fun, but keep it. you know, physical in
some sort of challenge. And then they run about
a quarter of a mile or a half mile, somewhere
in between there. But when you get across the
line, you actually have to do like jumping jacks
until everybody's across the line. So there's
that element of no one being left behind, even
though there can still be sort of a front runner.
And so, of course, the team with all four people
across the line first. get a prize and and all
of that but um we had a few of the uh officers
participate with us last year and it was a lot
of fun so i'm really looking forward to seeing
what we can do with that and the reason we wanted
it to be community oriented after the first event
was because of john suns and really making sure
that you know, we're getting kids involved as
early as possible in the mental wellness conversation,
but not at a level where, you know, you're sitting
down with them at the table and having this really
heavy conversation about mental wellness. Like,
let's start making it. a part of a three -year
-old's vocabulary because they had a really fun
day at this event one time um and so how do you
do that and you know as i said to you i don't
know if we can break the stigma in my lifetime
um i hope so but i also know how slowly things
like that can move um and so i do have high hopes
that we can do it in my nephew's lifetime and
i think or i hope that events like um the one
that we plan uh on may 30th of this year we'll
start to do that well it sounds amazing it really
does and it's it's really interesting seeing
over and over again these grief stories how they
do spawn i'm gonna do something about it and
i've always said the way that we honor the people
that we lose because no one's invented a time
machine yet to go save their life is we fight
to fix whatever the thing was that took them
from us it's that simple so i love you know the
healing element of trying to address the issue
and trying to do something in the memory of someone
that we've lost. And I think this is amazing.
For people listening, where can they find Operation
Talk To Me Johnny online? Yeah, absolutely. So
we're on most social medias. I'm not on TikTok
yet because I don't understand that one as well.
But, you know, I'm older. I grew up in the 80s,
so Facebook, of course. We're on Instagram. And
then you can go to our website, opt2mj .com,
and check us out there and stay in touch with
some of the things that we're doing. And, of
course, email optalk2mejohnny at gmail .com.
Brilliant. Are there any other places that people
want to reach out to you specifically? I'm always
happy to get a text. And so, you know, they're
welcome to reach out by email or Facebook Messenger.
And, you know, always happy to share, collaborate
with anybody in whatever way is going to support
the mission. Beautiful. Well, Lisa, I want to
thank you so much. It's been such an amazing
conversation. You know, I've always said, I know
that these conversations kind of rip the bandaid
off and kind of reopen the wound for a moment.
But I know there are so many people listening
that this is going to resonate with that it will
save lives. There's no question. So I want to
thank you so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Oh, thanks for having me. It's
been a great conversation.