WEBVTT

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A prerequisite to be a sponsor on the Behind

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the Shield podcast is you have to bring a solution

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to one of our problems. And today's sponsor,

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EaseAlert, does exactly that. Founded by the

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son of a firefighter, Blake Richardson watched

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the impact of sleep deprivation on his father's

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health and decided to use modern technology to

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address that problem. As you've probably heard

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respond. And the way that we're alerted makes

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the firefighter stress go from zero to a hundred.

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Now EaseAlert has a host of solutions. The first

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vibration in the wrist. So as you can imagine

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in a communal bunk room, only the crews that

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into the bunk itself. There's LED lighting, a

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is behind so many things at ALS, a recent study

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by 169%. So if you want to hear more about EaseAlert,

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you can listen to my conversation with Blake

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on episode 1168 of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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or go to easealert .com. Welcome to the Behind

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the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James

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Geering, and this week it is my absolute honor

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to welcome on the show, Lisa Mason. Now, Lisa

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is a career accountant, but she is also the sister

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of John Little, an 18 -year Canadian Armed Forces

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veteran who took his life on November 22, 2021.

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So we discuss a host of topics, from her early

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family dynamic, women in wrestling, her journey

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into accounting, John's journey into the military,

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his own powerful mental health story, navigating

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grief, the creation of Operation Talk to Me Johnny,

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investing proactively into our nation's health,

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and so much more. Now, before we get to this

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incredible conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment. Go to whichever app

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you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of almost 1 ,200 episodes

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now. So all I ask in return is that you help

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share these incredible men and women's stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet

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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you... Lisa Mason. Enjoy.

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Well, Lisa, I want to start by saying thank you

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so much for taking the time and coming on the

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Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh, thank you

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for having me. It's a pleasure. So where on planet

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Earth are we finding you this afternoon? I'm

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just outside Toronto in Ontario, Canada. All

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right. Well, I would love to start at the very

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beginning of your timeline. So tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Yeah, absolutely. So I was born

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here in Ontario, a little town called Wallaceburg.

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Most people don't know it. I was the oldest of

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three to my parents, John and Sharon. And we

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were close. We were always, you know, my mom

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used to joke that we could live in a refrigerator

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box and be perfectly fine because we were just,

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we were always around each other. My brothers

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and I, you know, always got along pretty well.

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We stayed close well into our adulthood. And,

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you know, it was really important to my parents

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that that be the case. And they really made sure

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that they instilled that in us from an early

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age. So, you know, my brothers were always my

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best friends growing up. We grew up just outside

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Sarnia. We moved to a small hobby farm there.

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And dad was a truck driver. Mom stayed at home

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until we were a little bit older. And so, you

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know, we grew up working on farms. spending a

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lot of time outside uh you know dirt bikes and

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go -karts and all sorts of things like that so

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that's you know just a good old rural growing

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up i grew up on a farm as well so i can relate

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what about sports what were you doing on that

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side yeah i was um i played you know, intramural

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in like through the schools a bit, um, and then

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wrestled in high school. Um, my brothers were

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more into hockey and soccer. Um, that was never

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really my jam. I was, I worked in and did things

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out, you know, I was the responsible older sister

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all the time. And, uh, um, and so they kind of

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had a little bit more fun and, you know, played

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sports a bit more and things like that. But,

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um, but I did some, some wrestling and a few

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other things. When I think of women wrestling,

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a lot of times I think of the stories where the

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amazing female wrestlers end up training with

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a lot of the male wrestlers just because of the

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numbers. Was that something that you did too?

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I was really fortunate because our school had

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an excellent female wrestling program. It was

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one of the largest in southwestern Ontario. numbers

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perspective. So it was really good, because we

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had women in most weight classes, who were really

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able to sort of share, you know, information

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with each other. And, you know, wrestling for

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for women is a bit different than for men, right?

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And the way that We ground ourselves to the mat

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and things is completely different from the way

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men do. So it was really interesting to be able

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to share those sorts of pieces of information.

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But certainly, you know, we were close with all

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the males on the team and, you know, they were

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always very supportive and helpful. So it was

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nice because there was that mixed sort of practices

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that were happening and we were really able to

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share a lot of knowledge with each other. So

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it was good. And then, of course, I had two younger

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brothers to practice on. So that was always helpful.

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What are the differences? Educate me. As far

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as the technical side, you're talking about the

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different way that you're grounding or pinning.

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What are the differences between the male and

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wrestling? Yeah, so it's more about how we hold

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ourselves individually, right? the way that women

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sort of stand and are postured generally in comparison

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to men changes that center of gravity for you.

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And so the way that you do, you know, the lifts

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to get them down or the way that you, you know,

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throw your shoulder in can sometimes change a

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little bit. And I mean, I'm an amateur. I wrestled

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in high school. I'm no expert on it, but there

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are differences in the way that you sort of have

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to approach. things. And, and then mindset, too,

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I think is a little bit different, right? Men

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are grow up being sort of tough and rumble. And

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so when you enter a ring like that, for a woman,

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it's getting the right mindset is really interesting,

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because, you know, we're taught to be prim and

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proper. And next thing you know, you're in this

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singlet, sweating and like, wrestling this other

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woman to the ground. And, you know, and I think

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it's so interesting, because As a woman, for

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me in particular, you know, there's that thought

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of, oh, my God, like, I hope I don't hurt her,

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but also I want to win. And I don't know if that

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comes across for men the same way that it might

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for, you know, a more compassionate woman. And

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so I think it's interesting just sort of the

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dynamic and how you approach the match and how

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you approach certain movements because they will

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change. If you're wrestling a man versus if you're

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wrestling a woman. I think you see that even

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if you watch MMA, the UFC and some of the other

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organizations, there is a different vibe to the

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female athletes. And I feel that. When I had

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some of the martial arts coaches on, they talked

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about, like Greg Jackson, for example, talked

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about you have the martial artists and you have

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the fighters. And the fighters, you know, a lot

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of times have come off the streets. So they probably

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are the ones that aren't afraid to injure the

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opponent. And you have the martial artists that

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are the ones that you see, you know, could have

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broken an arm but didn't and turn to the ref

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and say, hey, he's tapping, you know, come on.

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But I think you see that more so in the female

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firefighters. Oh, firefighters. Female firefighters.

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Oh, my goodness. The female fighters. God. Yeah,

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I think so. I mean, look, we saw that great boxing

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match a couple of weeks ago between that American

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fighter whose name is escaping me right now and

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and the Canadian just before the Jake Paul and

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Anthony Joshua fight. And, you know, I thought

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it was really impressive the way that. you know,

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they went out and they, they did, you know, the

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full three minute rounds and things like that.

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But it, it does change a lot about the way that

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you approach the fight, you know, and that's

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why I think it's really interesting for women

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who, you know, haven't maybe trained in that

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way or haven't really experienced sort of the

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more male dominated sports to be kind of watching

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some of these things and seeing it a little bit

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more mainstream. Like I, I never knew how long

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three minutes was until I wrestled. And then

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you're like, Oh my God, I'm only a minute and

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a half in. And so I think, you know, it's, it's

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a really interesting concept that, you know,

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time and. And sports like boxing or wrestling

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or anything like that, where it's sort of that

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one -on -one combat type of scenario that's,

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you know, high intensity, lots of cardio, but

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also a lot of strategy and thinking and trying

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to make sure that you're in exactly the right

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place at exactly the right time is so fascinating

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because the mind can do some incredible tricks

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in three minutes. It's been amazing to watch

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as well the evolution of, I guess, the popularity

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of some of the female combat sports, because

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you hear this term toxic masculinity. And I think

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that's misused most of the time. But there is

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that element of my generation's upbringing that

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the boys do this and the girls do that. They

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wear pretty dresses and we go to war or whatever

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the thing is. And you're seeing a complete blurring

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of the lines. we need more of the gentle feminine

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side in the messaging on the male side. And then

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conversely, it's great seeing whatever it is,

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whether it's female firefighters and cops or

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soldiers, or whether it's fighters or whatever

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that perspective that is different than the traditional

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female role, I think is so empowering on the

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female side as well. Yeah, I completely agree

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with you. I love seeing, you know, there's nothing

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better to me than going into a hospital and seeing

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a male nurse. Or, you know, listening to my nephews

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talk about wanting to be, you know, in health

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care or do something, you know, more sort of

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traditionally female. You know, and hopefully

00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:22.480
my niece will grow up one day and tell me that

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she's going to be an MMA fighter. I don't know.

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Hopefully not, actually, because that would just

00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:32.269
scare me. I've seen wrestling matches go wrong.

00:12:32.409 --> 00:12:40.389
But I think it's really fascinating how the lines

00:12:40.389 --> 00:12:44.389
have blurred and what it's actually doing for

00:12:44.389 --> 00:12:48.649
our understanding of the opposite sex. 100%.

00:12:48.649 --> 00:12:51.070
Well, what about career aspirations? What were

00:12:51.070 --> 00:12:52.809
you dreaming of becoming when you were in the

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high school age? Yeah, I mean, I was boring.

00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:59.299
Again, that responsible older sister thing always

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came into play, right? So from a very young age,

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I kind of knew that I was going to be an accountant.

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And, you know, dad used to tease me and say,

00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.419
go be an accountant so that you can help me screw

00:13:10.419 --> 00:13:13.980
over the government. And now that I've been an

00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:15.980
accountant for 20 years, he's very disappointed

00:13:15.980 --> 00:13:17.740
that I've not helped him screw over the government.

00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:23.110
No, I knew from probably grade 10 that I was

00:13:23.110 --> 00:13:24.990
going to be an accountant. And that's what I've

00:13:24.990 --> 00:13:26.850
done. I've gone on to get my CPA designation

00:13:26.850 --> 00:13:31.750
and I'm a CFO. Brilliant. Well, I want to explore

00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:34.809
some of your work in healthcare as we get a little

00:13:34.809 --> 00:13:36.889
bit further in. But before, while we're still

00:13:36.889 --> 00:13:39.830
in early life, what about John? Was he always

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thinking of the military or was it something

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else when he was younger? Yeah, I mean, John

00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:48.059
was always one for the rules, right? Hated authority.

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So, you know, the military seems a little counterintuitive,

00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.259
but was always one for the rules. I can remember

00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:56.940
a story and my parents like love to tell this

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one often, but there was some sort of fight or

00:14:02.779 --> 00:14:05.019
something on the playground at school. I think

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John was in grade four or five, maybe. And whatever

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teacher was on duty that day. didn't see it.

00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.360
And so, you know, this older, bigger kid was

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picking on this younger, smaller kid. And John

00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:22.460
went over and basically fought him and put him

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in his place sort of thing. And so he actually

00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:29.320
got sent to the principal's office for, you know,

00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:32.320
standing up to this bully and helping this smaller

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child. And so he's like, how does this make any

00:14:35.379 --> 00:14:38.820
sense? Like, I did the right thing here. And,

00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:40.720
you know, now I'm getting in trouble for it.

00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.039
And so the principal's trying to explain to him

00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:45.879
that he's not allowed to be, quote, the playground

00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:51.399
cop. And, you know, had threatened to call dad.

00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:54.149
And he was like, good, do it. call dad because

00:14:54.149 --> 00:14:57.850
he's gonna be like good for my boy like you know

00:14:57.850 --> 00:14:59.909
i'm glad that he stood up for this other kid

00:14:59.909 --> 00:15:03.250
and whatever that was always who john was um

00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:06.149
you know he he'd give the shirt off his back

00:15:06.149 --> 00:15:09.389
to just about anybody um but if you wronged him

00:15:09.389 --> 00:15:12.429
you knew it and uh he liked people who played

00:15:12.429 --> 00:15:14.549
within the rules it was pretty black and white

00:15:14.549 --> 00:15:18.009
with him there was very few gray areas and um

00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:20.600
And that's just sort of who he always was. So,

00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:22.659
you know, when he started talking about the military

00:15:22.659 --> 00:15:29.320
in grade four, after hearing from a soldier who

00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:35.000
had been a POW in Bosnia, it was not really a

00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:36.940
surprise to any of us that that was going to

00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:39.539
be kind of the path that he went on. And, you

00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:43.240
know, 18, finished high school and was kind of

00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.159
sitting on dad's couch, mom and dad's couch.

00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.580
And dad's like. Get a job or join the army, but

00:15:48.580 --> 00:15:50.179
you're not just going to sit here all summer

00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:53.659
and do nothing. And so he went that August, wrote

00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:58.259
his exams and, you know, was inducted in December

00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:03.080
of that year. When you look back now with this

00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.919
kind of veteran lens that you have, understanding

00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.870
that a lot of us that. put on a uniform, had

00:16:09.870 --> 00:16:12.809
some struggles when we were younger. And the

00:16:12.809 --> 00:16:14.789
sad thing is if some of those struggles were

00:16:14.789 --> 00:16:17.370
left unaddressed, they became a fractured foundation

00:16:17.370 --> 00:16:20.509
as we progress through these professions that

00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:22.870
do see a lot of trauma and receive a lot of trauma

00:16:22.870 --> 00:16:25.549
physically. Were there any elements that you're

00:16:25.549 --> 00:16:29.190
aware of as younger years that you think contributed

00:16:29.190 --> 00:16:34.799
to struggles later on? I don't think so. I mean,

00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:39.600
John was a smaller in stature kind of guy. And

00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.480
it's actually widely talked about that he was

00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:46.639
a pretty small guy for the army. And so he was

00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.500
bullied a bit in school. Because of that, right?

00:16:50.539 --> 00:16:52.240
He was one of the smallest guys in his year.

00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.659
Certainly through high school, you get into like

00:16:54.659 --> 00:16:57.419
much bigger guys in grade 12 compared to him

00:16:57.419 --> 00:17:00.679
as a small grade nine. And so there was a bit

00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.399
of bullying and things that happened. But John

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.940
made friends pretty quickly. People knew where

00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:06.720
he stood. So I think a lot of people had a lot

00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:11.559
of respect for him. And he never really had a

00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:16.359
small man mentality. But he did have a bit of

00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:18.720
a chip on his shoulder. And I think, you know,

00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.339
dad being a truck driver and long haul for quite

00:17:21.339 --> 00:17:24.019
a number of years while we were kids, you know,

00:17:24.019 --> 00:17:26.059
John was always sort of the man of the house,

00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.880
right? From a very young age. And I think that

00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.859
he really took that role to heart. And that led

00:17:32.859 --> 00:17:37.359
him also, you know, through his military career

00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:40.779
days. And I think, you know, sort of having that.

00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.359
maybe self imposed stress of like, I have to

00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:48.480
protect everybody, probably played some role

00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.940
in a few things. But ultimately, you know, I,

00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:54.440
and we'll talk about this, I'm sure a bit more,

00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:58.259
James, but, you know, as I go back over the days

00:17:58.259 --> 00:18:02.579
and weeks and months leading up to John's last

00:18:02.579 --> 00:18:08.259
day, you know, I can't find anything that really

00:18:08.259 --> 00:18:11.180
points to a why and that's always sort of been

00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:14.980
the hardest part i know with a lot of people

00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:18.160
that we lose when you know they look back and

00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.140
from the psychological point of view don't seem

00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:24.140
to be any obvious markers then the tbi element

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:26.579
you know it seems to factor in did he get any

00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:28.759
big hits prior to even entering the military

00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:34.059
and ice hockey or anything else oh sure Absolutely.

00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.440
You know, I had two brothers who were two years

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.019
apart. They were constantly hitting each other

00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:45.849
over the head. Yeah, I think definitely. Certainly

00:18:45.849 --> 00:18:49.349
there was a few concussions and everything growing

00:18:49.349 --> 00:18:52.869
up. You fall out of a hayloft because you were

00:18:52.869 --> 00:18:54.950
not paying attention to what you were doing or

00:18:54.950 --> 00:18:58.289
whatever the case, right? Get bucked off a horse,

00:18:58.529 --> 00:19:02.069
those types of things. We certainly saw all of

00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:06.369
those. We grew up in the 80s. Yeah, those memes

00:19:06.369 --> 00:19:12.039
are real. Helmets on bikes weren't a thing. Well,

00:19:12.099 --> 00:19:14.000
then walk me through his journey into the military.

00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.160
You've got this young boy, physically smaller.

00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:17.819
And again, I can relate. I had my growth spurt

00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:20.400
when I was 18. So I was the smallest kid all

00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.819
through school, pretty much. So what was that

00:19:23.819 --> 00:19:25.779
kind of on -ramp experience for him? And let's

00:19:25.779 --> 00:19:28.819
talk about where he was first deployed. Yeah,

00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:32.099
absolutely. So yeah, he joined at 18. He did

00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:37.019
his basic training in Saint -Jean, Quebec, which,

00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:39.539
you know, it's grueling. It's meant to be grueling.

00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.299
That's what it's for. But was pretty quickly

00:19:43.299 --> 00:19:47.960
posted to Edmonton with the PPCLI up here. And

00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:53.059
he loved it. Like, he was a really regimental

00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:55.640
guy. So had a ton of respect for the regiment.

00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.420
Really loved everybody that he worked with. Really

00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:01.619
was not a fan of the institution of the military,

00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:05.599
but a really, you know, proud regimental soldier.

00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.660
Quickly got involved. I mean, you know, there's

00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:14.279
all sorts of things that different stories that

00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.200
we could go down with, you know, different training

00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:21.579
issues and things like that. But similar to anything

00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:25.460
back in those days, there was some, you know,

00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:27.160
a bit of bullying when you sort of first came

00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:31.420
in and some hazing maybe that happened. But overall,

00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:35.880
he really took to regimental life and, you know,

00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.059
the brotherhood that is the military. and sisterhood.

00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:45.019
And so Edmonton, he loved it out there. I mean,

00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.440
close to the mountains, what's not to like minus

00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.539
the snow and the minus 40 degree weather, but,

00:20:49.539 --> 00:20:54.240
but he really enjoyed it. He had an opportunity

00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.920
to continue to be creative out there coming up

00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.059
with logos and painting murals on the side of

00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:05.200
buildings for each of the units out there. And

00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:07.819
You know, I think to some degree he was really

00:21:07.819 --> 00:21:10.980
built for military life. He liked to be outdoors.

00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.259
He liked to do training. He liked to kind of

00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:17.880
stay busy with those types of things. And so

00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:25.359
he started driving the LAV -3 when he first got

00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.119
deployed. That's what he was doing. So he was

00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:34.029
deployed in rotation 108 to Afghanistan. I know

00:21:34.029 --> 00:21:36.309
less about that first deployment than I do about

00:21:36.309 --> 00:21:40.029
the second. And I imagine that's by design somewhere.

00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:45.210
But so he was driving the lab, was involved in

00:21:45.210 --> 00:21:49.730
a few cleanup crews. So I think that really was

00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:54.190
troublesome a few times. And, you know, he had.

00:21:54.970 --> 00:21:58.630
A couple of friends die on that tour and not

00:21:58.630 --> 00:22:02.069
necessarily with him, but stationed, you know,

00:22:02.069 --> 00:22:05.869
in forward operating bases. And when he came

00:22:05.869 --> 00:22:09.390
back, I could tell immediately that something

00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:13.950
wasn't quite right. We had gone to a concert.

00:22:15.049 --> 00:22:17.269
He'd come home for a visit and him and I went

00:22:17.269 --> 00:22:20.990
to a concert and it was a big like waterfront

00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:26.059
music festival in our hometown. And at the end

00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:28.259
of the, he'd gotten really drunk really fast.

00:22:28.460 --> 00:22:30.460
And to the point where he had caught the cop's

00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:34.019
eyes as we were about to leave. And I was like,

00:22:34.099 --> 00:22:37.319
don't worry, boys, I got this. I'm the older

00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:39.079
sister. I'll take, I'm getting them out of here.

00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:41.279
And so they were fine with that. They let me

00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.680
get them out of there and with no issue. But

00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.740
as we were walking away, somebody had lit off

00:22:48.740 --> 00:22:53.339
fireworks and he hit the dirt. And I was like,

00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:58.220
what? the hell are you doing? Like, and it didn't

00:22:58.220 --> 00:23:00.480
really occur to me, because as a civilian, you

00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.299
just, you don't think about bombs dropping from

00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:06.599
the air. Like, it's not something that we are,

00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:09.380
you know, have to deal with here in North America.

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.160
And, and in most countries, thankfully, but,

00:23:13.220 --> 00:23:17.619
you know, it was really odd behavior. And I was

00:23:17.619 --> 00:23:20.109
like, so I trying to talk to him. And of course,

00:23:20.109 --> 00:23:22.190
at that point in the evening, there was not much

00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:25.789
point. And so I got him home. And I took him

00:23:25.789 --> 00:23:27.890
out for lunch the next day. And I was like, Okay,

00:23:28.029 --> 00:23:30.869
you're not all right. Like as your big sister,

00:23:30.970 --> 00:23:33.269
I'm telling you that you are not okay. And we

00:23:33.269 --> 00:23:34.890
have to get you help. And this is what we're

00:23:34.890 --> 00:23:38.509
going to do about it. And he was like, No. Okay.

00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:44.170
And he's like, I'm gonna go back. And I was like,

00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:46.589
No, you like you can't go back. Are you? insane

00:23:46.589 --> 00:23:49.589
like you're already broken like we need to fix

00:23:49.589 --> 00:23:54.029
you first before you can go back um and so you

00:23:54.029 --> 00:23:56.329
know he basically said to me like go ahead and

00:23:56.329 --> 00:23:58.210
call the padre then if that's what you want to

00:23:58.210 --> 00:24:02.910
do but i know what to say so that they let me

00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:06.930
go back and i was like well that's not going

00:24:06.930 --> 00:24:10.589
to be very useful for me then is it um and so

00:24:10.589 --> 00:24:12.329
ultimately you know we just had a heart to heart

00:24:12.329 --> 00:24:16.609
about all of the things and um And I just told

00:24:16.609 --> 00:24:18.990
him to take care of himself. And so he went back

00:24:18.990 --> 00:24:22.890
on rotation 309. And for that rotation, he was

00:24:22.890 --> 00:24:27.970
at a forward operating base. And they were part

00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:31.950
of the Salavat mission. And so there was a...

00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:36.039
Legion magazine writer by the name of Adam Day,

00:24:36.140 --> 00:24:38.440
who was stationed with them at the time. So we

00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:40.039
actually have a number of articles that were

00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:42.720
written by Adam where John, you know, has little

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.740
quips or quotes. And if you read them, they're

00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:48.740
quite funny because John was always the one to

00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:51.619
make everybody laugh, even in sort of the darkest

00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:56.779
of moments. And so, you know, they'd be sitting

00:24:56.779 --> 00:25:00.099
there and... Some commanding officer would tell

00:25:00.099 --> 00:25:01.980
them what they're going to be up to that day.

00:25:02.059 --> 00:25:03.839
And then he would basically make a joke about

00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.299
how it wasn't going to work because the townspeople

00:25:06.299 --> 00:25:09.799
didn't trust them yet. And, you know, like with

00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:13.079
this whole story and everything. And I think

00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:16.460
because of that dark humor, people just really

00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:21.880
saw themselves in John. And so they sort of gravitated

00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:26.319
and connected with him well. But yeah. And then

00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.089
when he got back, he. He had a full drinking

00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:32.890
problem shortly after he got back and got into

00:25:32.890 --> 00:25:36.470
a DUI and ended up having to go to rehab. And

00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:39.190
mostly the rehab was for the PTSD, but also for

00:25:39.190 --> 00:25:42.950
the drinking. And so he was able to come off

00:25:42.950 --> 00:25:46.950
the alcohol, which was good. But the PTSD just

00:25:46.950 --> 00:25:49.450
kind of stuck around. And unfortunately, he had

00:25:49.450 --> 00:25:51.990
told them that he wasn't ready to go back yet.

00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:59.019
His window was up and he was going back. So that's

00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:01.299
what happened. He rejoined the base. And while

00:26:01.299 --> 00:26:03.039
he was in Edmonton, he was doing really well.

00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:09.220
But then he transferred here to Ontario and to

00:26:09.220 --> 00:26:13.640
a reserve base that he was sort of overseeing

00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:17.420
or helping to oversee. And because it was less

00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:22.359
structured. And, you know, fewer guys and things

00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.680
like that. I think that's when, you know, he

00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:26.779
started to have a few troubles and didn't feel

00:26:26.779 --> 00:26:30.319
as connected to some of the brotherhood and,

00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:32.339
you know, some of the other people that he served

00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:37.339
with. And then it was five years or so after

00:26:37.339 --> 00:26:42.380
that that he passed. Firstly, going all the way

00:26:42.380 --> 00:26:44.839
back to when you first noticed there was something

00:26:44.839 --> 00:26:46.819
wrong after the fireworks incident, what year

00:26:46.819 --> 00:26:52.569
was that? Yeah, so that would have been 2000,

00:26:53.230 --> 00:26:57.930
summer of 2009. Okay, so we weren't really having

00:26:57.930 --> 00:27:01.349
a very strong mental health conversation back

00:27:01.349 --> 00:27:03.970
then. So had that happened 10 years later, it

00:27:03.970 --> 00:27:07.829
might have gone differently. May have, may not

00:27:07.829 --> 00:27:10.430
have, still would have known what to say. But,

00:27:10.430 --> 00:27:15.009
you know, I can hope that. 10 years later, 15

00:27:15.009 --> 00:27:17.450
years later now, that it certainly would have

00:27:17.450 --> 00:27:19.450
been a different conversation and there would

00:27:19.450 --> 00:27:23.470
have been more avenues. But I think sometimes

00:27:23.470 --> 00:27:29.309
the sense of duty with these guys and some of

00:27:29.309 --> 00:27:32.630
the leadership at some of these organizations

00:27:32.630 --> 00:27:37.609
encourage still that stiff upper lip and that

00:27:37.609 --> 00:27:40.390
sense of duty. And so it's, you know, sacrifice

00:27:40.390 --> 00:27:45.269
oneself to save. your friends. And certainly,

00:27:45.329 --> 00:27:48.349
that's the mentality that most people go into

00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:52.190
these jobs with, to some degree, unless they've

00:27:52.190 --> 00:27:56.650
got a hero complex. But we know there's a few

00:27:56.650 --> 00:28:01.809
of those. But generally, you know, it's sort

00:28:01.809 --> 00:28:03.650
of you sort of go into these professions with

00:28:03.650 --> 00:28:07.230
good intentions of like, I want to make the world

00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:09.049
a better place. And this is how I'm going to

00:28:09.049 --> 00:28:12.569
do it. And so I think Sometimes that sense of

00:28:12.569 --> 00:28:17.829
duty can get in the way of self -care. It's interesting,

00:28:18.009 --> 00:28:21.009
the evolution of my simple understanding of all

00:28:21.009 --> 00:28:23.029
this, from all the people I got to talk to, from

00:28:23.029 --> 00:28:25.250
Gold Star families to psychologists and everyone

00:28:25.250 --> 00:28:28.829
in between. And you look at the beginning of

00:28:28.829 --> 00:28:31.190
the conversations, it was PTSD and we're broken

00:28:31.190 --> 00:28:32.829
and disorders and all this thing. And then it's

00:28:32.829 --> 00:28:36.210
kind of evolved. And now what's interesting is

00:28:36.210 --> 00:28:39.250
you can actually tap into that very element of

00:28:39.250 --> 00:28:43.130
service. to encourage people to go and seek help.

00:28:43.430 --> 00:28:45.630
Because if you look at it as a performance issue

00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:50.549
rather than a broken issue, it reframes it completely.

00:28:51.230 --> 00:28:53.849
So if someone had been able to have that kind

00:28:53.849 --> 00:28:55.809
of thought back then with John and be like, hey,

00:28:55.869 --> 00:28:58.650
I want you to go back to Afghanistan when you

00:28:58.650 --> 00:29:01.329
are ready to perform at the highest level so

00:29:01.329 --> 00:29:02.829
that you don't put yourself in danger, don't

00:29:02.829 --> 00:29:06.240
put your men in danger, men and women. And so

00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.779
let's do some work so we can optimize you again.

00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.200
And I think if we had that kind of conversation,

00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.099
a lot of military members, police, fire, et cetera,

00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.380
would actually take a step back and go, okay,

00:29:16.460 --> 00:29:17.799
well, this is for the betterment of everyone.

00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:20.759
Okay, I will sacrifice myself by not deploying

00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.859
so I can work on myself, get to where I'm optimizing.

00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:27.930
And working at an optimal level and then go and

00:29:27.930 --> 00:29:30.930
rejoin my fire station, whatever it is, rather

00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:33.470
than, hey, you're broken. You need to go get

00:29:33.470 --> 00:29:36.849
fixed, which is a terrible negative connotation

00:29:36.849 --> 00:29:38.509
to it, in which case people would just shove

00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:40.450
it down and be like, no, I'll be fine. But we

00:29:40.450 --> 00:29:43.910
aren't operating at a high level. We are depleted.

00:29:43.930 --> 00:29:47.549
So shifting from some sort of kind of rehabilitation

00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:51.089
to. encouraging performance you have the same

00:29:51.089 --> 00:29:53.650
exact journey but under a completely different

00:29:53.650 --> 00:29:57.349
pretense yeah and i i think that's a really interesting

00:29:57.349 --> 00:30:00.529
concept because i mean look you know i i used

00:30:00.529 --> 00:30:03.849
the word broken with john back in 2009 and back

00:30:03.849 --> 00:30:05.869
in those days that's that's what it was you were

00:30:05.869 --> 00:30:12.589
broken um and you know even as you know as shortly

00:30:12.589 --> 00:30:16.710
ago as 2018 or 2019, when I was talking with

00:30:16.710 --> 00:30:19.349
him and, you know, encouraging him to get help

00:30:19.349 --> 00:30:22.710
and whatever, you know, I now see that the way

00:30:22.710 --> 00:30:25.049
that I approached the conversation was more about

00:30:25.049 --> 00:30:28.710
him not being right, as opposed to him not being

00:30:28.710 --> 00:30:34.009
his best self. And, and, you know, I got a lot

00:30:34.009 --> 00:30:39.150
of pushback from him in those days. And, you

00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:42.269
know, I, it didn't help him. in encouraging him

00:30:42.269 --> 00:30:44.970
to get to where he needed to be. And unfortunately,

00:30:45.069 --> 00:30:48.170
by the time he realized what he needed, it was

00:30:48.170 --> 00:30:54.269
too late. But the, you know, I think, look, and

00:30:54.269 --> 00:30:56.630
I say this to a lot of people, breaking the stigma

00:30:56.630 --> 00:30:59.450
is going to be an extremely difficult thing to

00:30:59.450 --> 00:31:02.490
do in our lifetime. In my nephew's lifetime,

00:31:02.809 --> 00:31:06.509
maybe it's a possibility that in their lifetime,

00:31:06.690 --> 00:31:08.569
you know, we can break the stigma around mental

00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:10.289
health. But in our lifetime, it's going to be

00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:13.309
a really big challenge. But I think small things

00:31:13.309 --> 00:31:16.470
like reframing the conversation, particularly

00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:20.250
as it relates to mental wellness for PSP, you

00:31:20.250 --> 00:31:25.650
know, and how we look at it from a performance

00:31:25.650 --> 00:31:29.049
perspective, as opposed to a, you know, mental

00:31:29.049 --> 00:31:34.450
illness perspective, really changes the conversation

00:31:34.450 --> 00:31:37.369
completely, not only for the individual experiencing

00:31:37.369 --> 00:31:41.660
the symptoms, but also for the leadership. who

00:31:41.660 --> 00:31:45.920
need to support them through it. Absolutely.

00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:48.299
Another thing that you alluded to is when he

00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:50.299
came back, he was drinking heavily, and I'm assuming

00:31:50.299 --> 00:31:53.720
that was contrary to how he was pre -military.

00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:57.279
You hear this a lot in the fire service where

00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:00.220
you get these people 10, 15, 20 years into their

00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:02.480
career, and now they're getting DUIs, and maybe

00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:04.779
there's even a domestic incident, whatever it

00:32:04.779 --> 00:32:07.250
is. And I always ask people, what were they like

00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:10.009
when they got hired? Oh, they were amazing. They

00:32:10.009 --> 00:32:11.809
were so fired up. It's like, well, there we go.

00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:17.329
So a large portion of the behavioral change is

00:32:17.329 --> 00:32:20.509
coming from the profession. But you have these

00:32:20.509 --> 00:32:22.769
people, then they start falling off the rails

00:32:22.769 --> 00:32:24.009
a little bit. And then like, oh, we've got to

00:32:24.009 --> 00:32:26.930
get rid of them. Rather than, okay, well, we

00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:30.349
did this to them. So what can we do to envelop

00:32:30.349 --> 00:32:34.009
them and help them heal and get them back? Because

00:32:34.009 --> 00:32:35.990
the goal is not medical retirement. That's a

00:32:35.990 --> 00:32:38.549
horrible outcome, in my opinion. The goal is

00:32:38.549 --> 00:32:40.329
to get them back on their feet so they can finish

00:32:40.329 --> 00:32:42.910
their full service, be mentally sound, physically

00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:47.250
sound, and have a healthy retirement. So having

00:32:47.250 --> 00:32:49.529
compassion and empathy for people that are going

00:32:49.529 --> 00:32:52.230
through some things, even if they are causing

00:32:52.230 --> 00:32:55.390
trouble, even breaking laws, if they were a good

00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:58.470
member of whatever tribe you belong to at the

00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:01.349
beginning. then you've got to give them every

00:33:01.349 --> 00:33:03.670
opportunity to kind of get back on track again.

00:33:03.730 --> 00:33:05.710
You can't just discard them the moment the wheels

00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:10.529
fall off. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that,

00:33:10.529 --> 00:33:12.670
you know, that's one of the things that I think

00:33:12.670 --> 00:33:16.849
John felt in his last days. He was in the transition

00:33:16.849 --> 00:33:20.049
unit. He was going to be medically released 13

00:33:20.049 --> 00:33:25.829
months post his death date had he continued to

00:33:25.829 --> 00:33:32.180
be alive. And he was really struggling and we

00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:35.920
knew it from conversations. But as we went through,

00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.380
you know, different paperwork and John was a

00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:44.779
writer, he wrote poems and songs and short essays,

00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:48.710
like anything, like he just wrote. So if you

00:33:48.710 --> 00:33:50.430
could read his handwriting, which was atrocious,

00:33:50.470 --> 00:33:56.589
by the way, then you really got, you know, some

00:33:56.589 --> 00:33:59.410
pretty good insights into how he was thinking

00:33:59.410 --> 00:34:04.089
and feeling and those types of things. And so,

00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:07.190
you know, as I sat there going. through every

00:34:07.190 --> 00:34:09.269
piece of paper that he had in his house because

00:34:09.269 --> 00:34:12.030
you didn't dare throw anything out because it

00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:14.329
might be a utility bill on the front, but on

00:34:14.329 --> 00:34:16.750
the back, there was a whole poem. And so you

00:34:16.750 --> 00:34:18.730
couldn't just take, you had to flip everything

00:34:18.730 --> 00:34:21.670
over and look at it. But as we sat there and

00:34:21.670 --> 00:34:24.289
cleared out his house and, you know, went through

00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:26.929
some of these pieces of paper to figure out what

00:34:26.929 --> 00:34:29.630
might be salvageable and, you know, something

00:34:29.630 --> 00:34:33.190
that his kids might want later on or that my

00:34:33.190 --> 00:34:35.929
parents might want to keep or whatever, you know,

00:34:36.269 --> 00:34:40.250
you're reading these things and it was, it became

00:34:40.250 --> 00:34:44.750
so much clearer, you know, what it was that he

00:34:44.750 --> 00:34:47.730
was feeling about, you know, what do I do now?

00:34:48.190 --> 00:34:54.070
He would have been 37 years old, 30, yeah, 37

00:34:54.070 --> 00:34:58.210
-ish years old when he retired. That's young.

00:34:59.130 --> 00:35:02.719
He had kids that he had to pay. child support

00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:07.340
for and um you know and all the things and so

00:35:07.340 --> 00:35:10.519
he still needed to work but you know his back

00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:15.760
was done his knees were completely shot um and

00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.679
his brain was fighting him every day And so,

00:35:19.780 --> 00:35:23.760
you know, what what do you do next? You have

00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:27.940
few transferable skills coming from the military

00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:30.480
and the ones that do transfer typically transfer

00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:33.440
to police operations. But with his back and his

00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:37.500
knees, there was no chance. So now what? And

00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:40.460
I think that that really was weighing on him,

00:35:40.579 --> 00:35:43.980
you know, as he worked to do a few other things

00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:48.280
financially as a result of his divorce. It's

00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:54.260
just had a moment that where the mind was bigger

00:35:54.260 --> 00:35:58.260
than anything else. When people were talking

00:35:58.260 --> 00:36:01.739
about suicide 10 plus years ago, that's even

00:36:01.739 --> 00:36:04.219
more recently, but certainly then there was this

00:36:04.219 --> 00:36:06.500
conversation of it was cowardly. It was selfish.

00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:09.480
How could you think of your family? And I've

00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:11.579
had this kind of metamorphosis of understanding.

00:36:12.329 --> 00:36:14.429
listening to people that were there. Some who

00:36:14.429 --> 00:36:15.829
went through with their attempt and survived,

00:36:16.190 --> 00:36:18.489
many who were right there and whatever it was

00:36:18.489 --> 00:36:21.849
stopped them. And there's almost every single

00:36:21.849 --> 00:36:23.989
one has the same common denominator, but you

00:36:23.989 --> 00:36:26.670
don't really hear it discussed front and center

00:36:26.670 --> 00:36:30.210
in this mental health conversation. When you

00:36:30.210 --> 00:36:33.050
look at the human being, we are wired to survive.

00:36:33.269 --> 00:36:36.309
We are wired to reproduce, to protect our children,

00:36:36.469 --> 00:36:39.469
et cetera, et cetera. But when you listen to

00:36:39.469 --> 00:36:42.659
the voices of these men and women, through the

00:36:42.659 --> 00:36:46.360
perfect storm of multiple elements from unaddressed

00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:50.199
childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, TBIs, you

00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:52.360
know, again, financial relationships, all these

00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.380
compounding, there becomes a miswiring where

00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:58.539
their reality is shifted. And now they truly

00:36:58.539 --> 00:37:02.159
believe that they are the reason for the pain

00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:04.000
of their loved ones. And if they just remove

00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.639
themselves, which in that distorted mind, I would

00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.739
argue is actually selfless and courageous. then

00:37:09.739 --> 00:37:12.059
the pain will go away for everyone else. Now,

00:37:12.099 --> 00:37:14.800
shift to a healthy mind, of course, that makes

00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:18.079
no sense. But in that psychosis, over and over

00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.199
and over again, if that's your true belief system

00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:24.820
at that moment, and you have access to whatever,

00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.340
like law enforcement, for example, the means

00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:29.239
for that, and then you throw in alcohol, which

00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:31.800
distorts it even more, you've then got the perfect

00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:34.789
storm for a suicide. You have an interesting

00:37:34.789 --> 00:37:36.949
lens because you have all this that he's written

00:37:36.949 --> 00:37:39.670
as well. Were there any elements of that feeling

00:37:39.670 --> 00:37:45.369
of being a burden prior to his suicide? Yeah,

00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:49.210
I think so. And, you know, I think one of the

00:37:49.210 --> 00:37:51.650
things that he worried about was how he was going

00:37:51.650 --> 00:37:56.510
to take care of his children. And, you know,

00:37:56.570 --> 00:38:02.780
he was financially... from a pure financial standpoint

00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:05.380
in his mind, I believe he felt that there was

00:38:05.380 --> 00:38:07.480
only one way to make sure that his children were

00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.760
taken care of. And that was through his life

00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:13.760
insurance. And, you know, I don't know, and I

00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:15.840
will never know if that entered into his mind

00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:19.820
that night or not. But I know that he had been

00:38:19.820 --> 00:38:24.460
dealing with some financial issues that were

00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:27.900
scary. As a result of his divorce, he was trying

00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:32.500
to, you know, get the mortgage um for the home

00:38:32.500 --> 00:38:36.659
that he had lived in for almost six years um

00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:39.360
in his own name now that the divorce had been

00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:43.320
finalized but as a result but he had to do that

00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.559
and get his wife's name his ex -wife's name off

00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:48.400
of it and there was some pushing from the uh

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.619
her lawyer's side to get that done yesterday

00:38:50.619 --> 00:38:53.820
and unfortunately child support counts against

00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:57.019
you as a debt And so now they were saying, well,

00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:59.000
you don't make enough money to have the mortgage,

00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:00.900
even though he'd been paying the mortgage for

00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:05.659
six years and the child support. And there was

00:39:05.659 --> 00:39:08.179
a really real possibility in his mind that he

00:39:08.179 --> 00:39:11.659
was going to be homeless. Now, my family would

00:39:11.659 --> 00:39:15.280
never have let that happen. And we had already

00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.039
spoken with him about ways that we could get

00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:22.309
around it. On that Friday before he passed, he

00:39:22.309 --> 00:39:24.590
finally found out that he was able to get the

00:39:24.590 --> 00:39:27.650
mortgage and that everything was signed off and

00:39:27.650 --> 00:39:33.150
he was good to go. And he was elated. I hadn't

00:39:33.150 --> 00:39:37.130
seen him that happy in I don't even remember

00:39:37.130 --> 00:39:39.489
how long because it was just one blow after the

00:39:39.489 --> 00:39:42.090
other that he felt like he was going through.

00:39:42.809 --> 00:39:46.869
And so I spoke with him that Friday. He was.

00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:50.690
Over the moon, happy to finally have that behind

00:39:50.690 --> 00:39:54.309
him and, you know, was looking forward to a couple

00:39:54.309 --> 00:39:57.090
of things that were coming up. And then on the

00:39:57.090 --> 00:40:01.170
Monday night, we got the call and I have no idea

00:40:01.170 --> 00:40:07.130
how we went from total elation and relief and

00:40:07.130 --> 00:40:15.610
everything else to death. 72 hours later. And

00:40:15.610 --> 00:40:20.849
it wasn't until I did the mental health first

00:40:20.849 --> 00:40:28.730
aid for veterans course about 15 months ago now.

00:40:29.130 --> 00:40:33.409
And that I understood that these big highs are

00:40:33.409 --> 00:40:41.789
just as concerning as these big lows. And so

00:40:41.789 --> 00:40:43.849
now, like, I look back on it and I was like,

00:40:43.949 --> 00:40:47.570
oh, that was supposed to be a red flag. But I

00:40:47.570 --> 00:40:51.210
was just relieved because I didn't have to worry

00:40:51.210 --> 00:40:54.510
anymore that, you know, he was going to do something

00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:57.789
silly because everything was finally working

00:40:57.789 --> 00:41:03.590
out in his favor. And that wasn't the case. But

00:41:03.590 --> 00:41:08.369
I agree with you. I think that in that moment,

00:41:08.610 --> 00:41:12.599
you know. I've debated with people, is it a decision

00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:15.320
or is it an action that just happens that you're

00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:20.480
sort of unable to stop yourself because of the

00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.000
programming that is happening now in your head?

00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:26.079
And so, you know, I use the word decision. I

00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.179
don't necessarily mean that it was some, you

00:41:28.179 --> 00:41:30.360
know, master thought out plan. I just use it

00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:32.699
because I don't think anybody has a better word

00:41:32.699 --> 00:41:37.099
for it these days. But, you know, I think that

00:41:37.099 --> 00:41:41.110
in that moment, making that decision, And believe

00:41:41.110 --> 00:41:43.889
me, in the days afterwards, I was like, you little

00:41:43.889 --> 00:41:47.710
SOB, how could you do this to us? And I still

00:41:47.710 --> 00:41:51.170
have days like that. How could you be this selfish?

00:41:51.309 --> 00:41:53.730
Why would you do this to us? Those types of things.

00:41:54.510 --> 00:41:57.949
But I also have a deep understanding of the fact

00:41:57.949 --> 00:42:01.230
that he thought he was protecting the rest of

00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:05.250
us. And it's why one of the messages that I say

00:42:05.250 --> 00:42:08.900
when I do public speaking now is. You know, that

00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:12.820
pain that you are feeling doesn't go away when

00:42:12.820 --> 00:42:16.000
you pass. It gets broken up and it gets given

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:19.840
to all of your loved ones. And so if that's what

00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.039
your mind is telling you is going to happen is

00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:25.519
that you're going to pass and all of this pain

00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:29.219
is going to go away and it's going to be better

00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:31.320
for everyone because now you're not going to

00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:35.480
be this burden. You know, it's not the case.

00:42:35.500 --> 00:42:39.400
You are giving that pain now away. I just feel

00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:41.639
like that should be front and center in this

00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:44.579
conversation. There seems to be two things that

00:42:44.579 --> 00:42:46.940
you hear simultaneously. I want the suffering

00:42:46.940 --> 00:42:49.460
to end, whatever that is, the emotional turmoil,

00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:52.019
the physical pain, et cetera, et cetera. But

00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:56.679
then that feeling of burdensome. I'm now mentally

00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:58.619
injured, physically injured. My family's got

00:42:58.619 --> 00:43:00.320
to take care of me. I can't earn the money I

00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:02.699
used to be able to. I only see my kids half the

00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:05.119
time. Whatever it is, it's just compounding.

00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.719
And that needs to be out there because I feel

00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.059
like the red flag for friends, family, and the

00:43:10.059 --> 00:43:13.139
individual is the moment that you even hear that

00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:16.880
little voice start to say, it's your fault. You're

00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.360
the reason. That's your red flag. Hey, if you're

00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:24.159
struggling, reach out, call me. Here's the number.

00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.079
I've got an open door policy. Bullshit. If you

00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.599
are starting to believe that you are the burden,

00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:32.980
that you are the reason for people's pain, there's

00:43:32.980 --> 00:43:35.599
your red flag. And I think that because I've

00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.519
had people on the show that, you know, that that

00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:39.579
was really the big scary thing for them. I've

00:43:39.579 --> 00:43:41.639
had people reach out, listening to interviews,

00:43:41.699 --> 00:43:48.489
saying the same thing. If you could just get

00:43:48.489 --> 00:43:50.110
to that point, I don't think you're as close

00:43:50.110 --> 00:43:52.210
to crisis that the moment you're in crisis, you're

00:43:52.210 --> 00:43:54.050
not picking up a phone. That's a universally

00:43:54.050 --> 00:43:56.269
accepted thing. It's too late by that point.

00:43:56.389 --> 00:43:59.389
So if we can see that starting to happen and

00:43:59.389 --> 00:44:01.550
that coming up in verbiage and conversation,

00:44:01.929 --> 00:44:04.650
you know, how many more people could we save

00:44:04.650 --> 00:44:08.090
getting them a little bit earlier? Oh, without

00:44:08.090 --> 00:44:12.449
a doubt, you know, and that's why I think a lot

00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:15.170
of people have gravitated to, you know, Operation

00:44:15.170 --> 00:44:20.269
Talk To Me Johnny's. message is, it really bites

00:44:20.269 --> 00:44:23.630
back at that belief that some people might have

00:44:23.630 --> 00:44:26.250
that they are the problem and that their family

00:44:26.250 --> 00:44:28.769
is going to be better off without them. And,

00:44:28.989 --> 00:44:33.170
you know, I joke with people a lot that I'm just

00:44:33.170 --> 00:44:36.329
a woman who got on the internet one day and cried

00:44:36.329 --> 00:44:39.010
and did 22 push ups. And now I have, you know,

00:44:39.030 --> 00:44:44.650
537 followers or whatever it is. But, but the

00:44:44.650 --> 00:44:47.820
reality is people I've had people reach out to

00:44:47.820 --> 00:44:50.059
me and be like, your story is so unique in a

00:44:50.059 --> 00:44:55.139
community where we're all trying to save each

00:44:55.139 --> 00:44:57.739
other, but nobody's really talking about what

00:44:57.739 --> 00:45:01.179
happens to the families after the fact. And so

00:45:01.179 --> 00:45:05.900
when I'm able to post videos of my nephews doing

00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:09.980
planks or push -ups for some challenge or whatever

00:45:09.980 --> 00:45:12.320
in memory of their dad, people are like, oh,

00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:18.130
shit. And, you know, or I tell stories about,

00:45:18.190 --> 00:45:21.409
you know, how I'm feeling that day and what his

00:45:21.409 --> 00:45:25.929
loss is doing to me. Or, you know, whatever,

00:45:26.170 --> 00:45:29.510
right? And people have been like, you know, like,

00:45:29.550 --> 00:45:34.550
you saved my life because of you, you know, and

00:45:34.550 --> 00:45:40.579
your story, I've realized X. Or, you know, the

00:45:40.579 --> 00:45:42.199
number of people who are like, you know, thank

00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:44.679
God, you know, I was close. I had the gun in

00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:47.940
hand and I was walking out the back door. But

00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:51.519
I thought of, you know, my loved ones. And at

00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:53.780
the end of the day, I couldn't do it. And so

00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:58.679
if our story can be out there loudly enough to

00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:02.880
give that person even just one second of doubt

00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:06.360
about what they're burdensome to their family

00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:10.079
or their friends. then I think it's possible

00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:13.380
to save lives. And I have to believe that. And

00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:15.900
that's what keeps me going every day. And I think

00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:19.699
if we can get more people talking about how,

00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:24.159
you know, it's not burdensome to talk and to

00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:27.760
listen to each other, then I think, you know,

00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:29.920
we've got a lot better chance because the reality

00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.519
is you're absolutely right. John didn't call

00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:35.980
anybody. Nobody knew what was happening that

00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:40.599
night. His fiance was in the other room. And

00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.440
had it not been for the fact that his music just

00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.760
stopped, she wouldn't have even known anything

00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:51.019
happened. But his music ended and it didn't start

00:46:51.019 --> 00:46:53.639
back up again like it normally would. And she

00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.519
went to investigate. And for whatever reason,

00:46:57.579 --> 00:47:02.880
he made that choice. His mind took over. I don't

00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:07.550
know. He could not get past the fact that he

00:47:07.550 --> 00:47:15.269
needed to do what he did. I think there's, speaking

00:47:15.269 --> 00:47:16.949
of the families, there's also a lot of value

00:47:16.949 --> 00:47:21.070
when we finally understand all these contributing

00:47:21.070 --> 00:47:24.329
factors, multiple, that take these people to

00:47:24.329 --> 00:47:26.130
this place. And then you start to understand

00:47:26.130 --> 00:47:29.670
what that broken mind looks like from the inside.

00:47:29.789 --> 00:47:32.070
And I'm using that term broken very compassionately.

00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:35.039
Because then I think you're not left with that

00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:37.840
guilt and shame of, oh, they were a coward. They

00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:39.739
just said they just wanted to just leave it to

00:47:39.739 --> 00:47:42.260
us. That's not what it seems to be at all. It's

00:47:42.260 --> 00:47:44.380
the opposite. Like we said, there was that belief

00:47:44.380 --> 00:47:48.219
that that was a solution for most of them. So

00:47:48.219 --> 00:47:50.699
then I hope that it offers some peace to some

00:47:50.699 --> 00:47:53.260
of these families as well to go, okay, that wasn't

00:47:53.260 --> 00:47:54.940
what my loved one was thinking. They weren't

00:47:54.940 --> 00:47:56.679
just saying, screw my family. I'm going to leave

00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:59.059
them with all this pain. They thought they were

00:47:59.059 --> 00:48:02.219
fixing it. But as we all know, when we drink

00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:04.780
and drive, when you do have a concussion, you

00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:08.139
can't think clearly. There's a reason why it's

00:48:08.139 --> 00:48:10.079
called altered mindset. And it's the same with

00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:12.940
this. So I hope even people that it's too late,

00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.980
they've lost that loved one, can look back retrospectively

00:48:15.980 --> 00:48:18.400
and put some more compassion and empathy into

00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:23.199
that scenario and hopefully forgive that loved

00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.170
one for what happened. Yeah, I hope so too. As

00:48:27.170 --> 00:48:31.030
I said earlier, I definitely still struggle with

00:48:31.030 --> 00:48:35.909
anger. That's my number one emotion when it comes

00:48:35.909 --> 00:48:39.889
to John's death. And is it all angry at him?

00:48:39.989 --> 00:48:47.230
No, not necessarily. I actually have, I believe,

00:48:47.289 --> 00:48:51.230
a true understanding of what he thought he may

00:48:51.230 --> 00:48:54.710
have been accomplishing in doing what he did.

00:48:55.420 --> 00:48:58.139
And to some degree, I think he actually probably

00:48:58.139 --> 00:49:00.780
accomplished it. So, you know, it's hard for

00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:04.320
me to to say that, you know, he was wrong in

00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:08.539
that moment or anything like that. Certainly,

00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:11.860
I would have found better ways to do it. But

00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:15.800
but, you know, he made what happened happened

00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.440
and you can't change that. And I think being

00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:22.760
angry about it is. It's an easy emotion for me

00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:26.119
because it comes innately as part of the thought

00:49:26.119 --> 00:49:28.960
process around it and how upset I am that he's

00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:32.159
not here to help me with different things. I

00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:34.400
mean, our parents are getting older, you know,

00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:38.449
whatever, right? You know, I've got big life

00:49:38.449 --> 00:49:41.389
choices that I'm making and he was always my

00:49:41.389 --> 00:49:45.309
sounding board and now he's not here. And so,

00:49:45.590 --> 00:49:47.989
you know, there's anger that gets involved in

00:49:47.989 --> 00:49:52.570
that. Whereas my mom has no anger at all. Anger

00:49:52.570 --> 00:49:54.989
has never been an emotion that my mom's felt

00:49:54.989 --> 00:49:58.949
as it related to my brother's death. And I think

00:49:58.949 --> 00:50:02.510
that that is so interesting because, you know,

00:50:02.510 --> 00:50:08.130
it's hard for me to understand how A mother couldn't

00:50:08.130 --> 00:50:12.829
be so angry with their child for doing this.

00:50:14.130 --> 00:50:19.449
And I think that it really goes to the fact that

00:50:19.449 --> 00:50:25.789
we all know John. We know what it is that we

00:50:25.789 --> 00:50:28.650
think he was trying to accomplish. And we know

00:50:28.650 --> 00:50:31.110
that he would never have done this in some sort

00:50:31.110 --> 00:50:34.039
of selfish means. And I think if you can really

00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:40.019
get to the crux of who your person was as a person

00:50:40.019 --> 00:50:44.840
to you, not to their military or their police

00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.239
or their fire organization, but who they were

00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:52.019
as your brother or your sister or your son or

00:50:52.019 --> 00:50:55.360
daughter or mom or dad or whatever, who they

00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:58.820
were to you, then you're going to have a much

00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:03.050
easier time of... finding some understanding

00:51:03.050 --> 00:51:06.110
and some forgiveness there and that that took

00:51:06.110 --> 00:51:11.190
me longer than i'd like to say openly on this

00:51:11.190 --> 00:51:15.070
podcast um but it took me longer than um than

00:51:15.070 --> 00:51:17.650
i would have hoped but i you know i did eventually

00:51:17.650 --> 00:51:20.769
sort of get there with that when you were talking

00:51:20.769 --> 00:51:22.710
it's funny when we're talking about analogies

00:51:22.710 --> 00:51:27.070
i think a recent glaring example of what happens

00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:30.800
to an overstressed, maybe even underslept mind

00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.320
is what happened in COVID. I mean, when that

00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:37.400
first came out, think about how that tore friendships

00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:40.280
and families apart. Are you pro -mask or anti

00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:43.460
-mask or pro -vaccine or anti -vaccine or whatever

00:51:43.460 --> 00:51:46.940
the thing is. I mean, it was a full -on Flanders

00:51:46.940 --> 00:51:50.739
Field World War I trench warfare and no ability

00:51:50.739 --> 00:51:52.900
to stand in the middle and critically think like,

00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:54.940
oh, well, this is definitely a real thing, but

00:51:54.940 --> 00:51:57.219
the health of the people is a big factor as well.

00:51:57.820 --> 00:52:00.139
Okay, that's common sense. That's like good critical

00:52:00.139 --> 00:52:03.199
thinking. But the moment people are overstressed,

00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:05.159
underslept, and you add all these other things

00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:07.519
that create this, you know, tornado in their

00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:09.960
mind, their ability to just stand in the middle

00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:13.820
and think about it goes away. And most people

00:52:13.820 --> 00:52:16.059
weren't suicidal during COVID. But I mean, that

00:52:16.059 --> 00:52:18.599
was a great social experiment. What happens when

00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:22.300
a mind is tormented, your ability to think clearly

00:52:22.300 --> 00:52:26.550
and critically is diminished. Yeah, now we are

00:52:26.550 --> 00:52:29.710
seeing a number of mental health cases come out

00:52:29.710 --> 00:52:33.090
of COVID. Oh, yeah. Like, you still see people

00:52:33.090 --> 00:52:39.389
who are completely terrified now of going outside

00:52:39.389 --> 00:52:43.110
because of COVID. And so there is a trauma. And

00:52:43.110 --> 00:52:44.929
I think it will be interesting to see what happens,

00:52:45.110 --> 00:52:48.769
particularly in the next five years, around any

00:52:48.769 --> 00:52:51.309
studies that are done about this. Because, you

00:52:51.309 --> 00:52:53.710
know, I believe that there are people who were...

00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.280
Truly traumatized by some of the things that

00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:00.119
happened, particularly up here in Canada, where

00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:05.579
we had some really rigid rules. Did Florida even

00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:09.920
shut down? We did. Actually, I'm not a fan of

00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.800
all of DeSantis' things, I'll be very honest,

00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:15.739
but I have to give him credit and his administration.

00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:18.820
We shut down like everyone else. We took it seriously

00:53:18.820 --> 00:53:21.280
by anyone else. And funny enough, we probably

00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:23.360
have the highest concentration of elderly of

00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:26.920
anywhere in the country. And yet they slowly

00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:29.239
opened the tap. So it was, I think, restaurants

00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:32.780
first and then gyms followed after that. And

00:53:32.780 --> 00:53:35.760
again, there was six feet and all the... ridiculousness

00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.599
but we were open you know and it did they so

00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:40.539
people were communing again they were out in

00:53:40.539 --> 00:53:43.099
the sunshine again and lo and behold if i'm not

00:53:43.099 --> 00:53:44.940
mistaken we have one of the lowest death rates

00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:47.059
of anywhere in the nation but we were vilified

00:53:47.059 --> 00:53:49.099
by a lot of the you know californias and new

00:53:49.099 --> 00:53:53.159
yorks etc so so yeah so we did we took it seriously

00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:55.500
but we kind of followed more like the the swedish

00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:58.820
model and it it was a great success because now

00:53:58.820 --> 00:54:01.679
we know that if you want to keep people healthy

00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:04.769
during a pandemic To tell them to stay indoors,

00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:08.090
don't see your friends and family, get fast food

00:54:08.090 --> 00:54:09.829
and alcohol delivered to your house and binge

00:54:09.829 --> 00:54:13.309
watch Tiger King is not great wellness advice

00:54:13.309 --> 00:54:16.489
during a pandemic. So maybe do the exact opposite

00:54:16.489 --> 00:54:18.610
next time and you're going to have a much better

00:54:18.610 --> 00:54:22.070
health outcome. Oh, Tiger King. I forgot about

00:54:22.070 --> 00:54:25.289
that. Yeah. No wonder we were all traumatized

00:54:25.289 --> 00:54:28.170
during COVID. Exactly. Our dumpster fire didn't

00:54:28.170 --> 00:54:30.210
seem as bad when you watch someone else's dumpster

00:54:30.210 --> 00:54:33.980
fire. That was the thing. That's right. But yeah,

00:54:34.019 --> 00:54:35.480
you know, I think it's going to be really interesting

00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:37.260
to see what happens with some of the studies

00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:39.820
that come out, because I do believe that, particularly

00:54:39.820 --> 00:54:43.179
in some of the more locked down nations, or more

00:54:43.179 --> 00:54:46.940
stringent ruled nations, that there was actual

00:54:46.940 --> 00:54:53.139
trauma that people, you know, have because of

00:54:53.139 --> 00:54:57.539
being locked inside or, you know, that fear mongering

00:54:57.539 --> 00:55:01.989
that that happened. You know, I don't care if

00:55:01.989 --> 00:55:04.849
you got vaccinated or not. I did. I had elderly

00:55:04.849 --> 00:55:07.030
parents and a father in law who was battling

00:55:07.030 --> 00:55:09.670
dementia and we needed it to be able to get into,

00:55:09.730 --> 00:55:12.489
you know, long term care and we needed it to

00:55:12.489 --> 00:55:14.349
get out of the country. So I was like, I'm getting

00:55:14.349 --> 00:55:17.489
out of here. I don't care. Poke me like I drink

00:55:17.489 --> 00:55:19.489
and, you know, whatever else. So if I'm not going

00:55:19.489 --> 00:55:21.789
to take care of myself that way, well, then what's

00:55:21.789 --> 00:55:25.219
this thing going to do? Who cares? But. I know

00:55:25.219 --> 00:55:27.119
a lot of people who wouldn't put it in their

00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:29.960
bodies and good for them. But I think the way

00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:34.619
that the media and, you know, well, the media

00:55:34.619 --> 00:55:37.219
basically, you know, pinned people against each

00:55:37.219 --> 00:55:40.019
other in terms of vaxxers and anti -vaxxers,

00:55:40.059 --> 00:55:45.800
you know, I don't understand that sort of mentality

00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:49.159
because. At the end of the day, you're just doing

00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.679
what's best for yourself and your family. And

00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:54.539
I think that if people can't understand that

00:55:54.539 --> 00:55:56.639
and we can't support each other in that, then,

00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:02.119
you know, societies come a long way in the opposite

00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:05.260
direction of where we needed to be. So it'll

00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:07.880
be interesting for me to see what comes out of

00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:11.639
some of the statistics around mental health numbers

00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:14.300
over the next few years and particularly for

00:56:14.300 --> 00:56:19.460
children. That, you know, we're in sort of those

00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:23.440
primary levels of school during COVID and what

00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.519
that does to both their social skills, but also

00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:29.280
their mental health. I know. I mean, I've had

00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:30.900
so many conversations with people about this.

00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:32.960
I try and, you know, keep revisiting it because

00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:34.860
when we came out with COVID, people were like,

00:56:34.900 --> 00:56:36.500
oh, we don't want to talk about it anymore. Wait

00:56:36.500 --> 00:56:38.880
a second. You don't want to learn from what went

00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:40.940
right and what went wrong so that when this virus

00:56:40.940 --> 00:56:43.159
comes again, whatever we call it next time, Sebastian

00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:46.969
or whatever the phrases of the day. That's murdering

00:56:46.969 --> 00:56:49.050
a bunch of people because they're still sick

00:56:49.050 --> 00:56:51.610
because we haven't addressed obesity and the

00:56:51.610 --> 00:56:53.550
mental health crisis and the opioid epidemic

00:56:53.550 --> 00:56:55.630
and all these other things. We're not going to

00:56:55.630 --> 00:56:58.130
learn any lessons from it. But I mean, when you

00:56:58.130 --> 00:57:00.150
reflect back now, you speak to a lot of the people,

00:57:00.210 --> 00:57:03.309
especially that work with children. Schools were

00:57:03.309 --> 00:57:06.530
where most of the domestic abuse and sexual abuse

00:57:06.530 --> 00:57:09.510
is reported by children. And we took that away

00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:12.150
for a year and a half in a lot of areas. You

00:57:12.150 --> 00:57:13.750
know, you've got these poor kids that graduated

00:57:13.750 --> 00:57:16.369
right when it hit. that were then given stimulus

00:57:16.369 --> 00:57:18.989
checks and then shamed to the moment that ended.

00:57:19.130 --> 00:57:21.030
Like, why aren't you working? And we cut their

00:57:21.030 --> 00:57:25.090
legs from them. We integrated from school into,

00:57:25.289 --> 00:57:28.630
there was no middle ground, no cliff. We just

00:57:28.630 --> 00:57:31.070
went from school to first jobs to you're working

00:57:31.070 --> 00:57:34.369
your way. They went from school to a year of

00:57:34.369 --> 00:57:36.869
handouts and then you're expected to get back

00:57:36.869 --> 00:57:39.889
up into the workforce. So we have to take responsibility

00:57:39.889 --> 00:57:42.429
of, again, what was done right. I can't really

00:57:42.429 --> 00:57:44.570
think of many at the moment. And then what was

00:57:44.570 --> 00:57:47.250
done poorly. And addressing, for example, the

00:57:47.250 --> 00:57:50.789
American obesity crisis should have been front

00:57:50.789 --> 00:57:52.789
and center because we know that pre -existing

00:57:52.789 --> 00:57:55.969
conditions were the massive amplifier of whether

00:57:55.969 --> 00:57:57.909
you were going to survive or die from COVID.

00:57:58.369 --> 00:58:00.849
So this whole trust the science, we care about

00:58:00.849 --> 00:58:03.590
people. Well, if you did, Americans would be

00:58:03.590 --> 00:58:05.130
getting healthier and healthier, but that's not

00:58:05.130 --> 00:58:08.289
the case. So unless we turn around and actually

00:58:08.289 --> 00:58:10.269
revisit with these conversations, the physical

00:58:10.269 --> 00:58:11.949
health, and in this case, the mental health,

00:58:12.130 --> 00:58:14.050
we're just going to, you know, it's going to

00:58:14.050 --> 00:58:17.809
be even worse the next time. Yeah. And I think,

00:58:17.809 --> 00:58:21.349
you know, COVID brought about, I mean, John obviously

00:58:21.349 --> 00:58:28.030
died during COVID. He died in 2021. And it, to

00:58:28.030 --> 00:58:32.809
some degree, has a place of blame in his story.

00:58:33.210 --> 00:58:35.699
And I think it... it's a really interesting piece

00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:39.099
of blame because what had happened was John finally

00:58:39.099 --> 00:58:42.519
did start to seek help. He was seeing a social

00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:46.119
worker on the base and, and was getting help

00:58:46.119 --> 00:58:52.340
that way and was doing quite well. And then this

00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:55.980
individual during COVID needed to step back for

00:58:55.980 --> 00:59:02.780
their own personal reasons. And, and so the base

00:59:02.780 --> 00:59:07.329
was then, um had a vacancy in their social worker

00:59:07.329 --> 00:59:11.769
uh slot and they only had one so when this individual

00:59:11.769 --> 00:59:15.150
went off um and i don't blame him at all um but

00:59:15.150 --> 00:59:18.590
when this individual went off um there was nobody

00:59:18.590 --> 00:59:23.590
for john to see and except for you know the doctor

00:59:23.590 --> 00:59:27.630
but that she's a doctor she doesn't do um mental

00:59:27.630 --> 00:59:31.820
health and So he had tried to get in to see a

00:59:31.820 --> 00:59:34.980
mental health professional outside of the base.

00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:38.440
But, you know, the military lost the paperwork

00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:41.219
a couple times. Everybody's experienced that

00:59:41.219 --> 00:59:45.960
one. And, you know, I don't mean to joke about

00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:48.579
it, but it's a bit of an epidemic over there

00:59:48.579 --> 00:59:54.400
in terms of lost paperwork. And unfortunately,

00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:58.199
he was unable to get into help. in a timely enough

00:59:58.199 --> 01:00:00.980
fashion. So I don't know what it's like in the

01:00:00.980 --> 01:00:05.519
US or when it comes to police or fire, but when

01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:09.260
a active military member dies here in Canada,

01:00:09.460 --> 01:00:13.300
they do what's called a board of inquiry. And

01:00:13.300 --> 01:00:16.320
the board of inquiry basically goes in, they

01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:20.179
interview family, friends, colleagues, you know,

01:00:20.179 --> 01:00:25.579
commanding officers. whatever and um basically

01:00:25.579 --> 01:00:28.940
look into is there anything that could have been

01:00:28.940 --> 01:00:32.380
done to to essentially save this person either

01:00:32.380 --> 01:00:35.420
from the accident that happened or the suicide

01:00:35.420 --> 01:00:39.880
or you know the combat situation whatever it

01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:46.400
is and so generally speaking it's a great idea

01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:49.239
it's an excellent tool as long as it's being

01:00:49.239 --> 01:00:53.420
used properly um And so they went in, they did

01:00:53.420 --> 01:00:58.179
this investigation. They came back to us a year,

01:00:58.199 --> 01:01:00.000
year and a half later, I can't remember, it seemed

01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:05.860
like forever. And, and said, okay, so, you know,

01:01:05.860 --> 01:01:07.519
he was doing really well while he was talking

01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:09.599
to this social worker, but then the social worker

01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:12.360
had to go off because of COVID. And, you know,

01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:15.260
whatever personal reasons that related to that

01:01:15.260 --> 01:01:18.900
and he couldn't get in to see anybody and you

01:01:18.900 --> 01:01:22.139
know the referrals basically went nowhere and

01:01:22.139 --> 01:01:26.440
so yep we think that there's a gap you know not

01:01:26.440 --> 01:01:29.380
legally or anything but you know we're taking

01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:31.519
responsibility for that basically right there's

01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:33.679
a gap in our system and we know we know we need

01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:37.519
to fix it i was like okay great so i was like

01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:39.000
so what's the recommendation and they're like

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.019
well we're going to recommend that the base always

01:01:41.019 --> 01:01:45.940
have two social workers And that way, if somebody

01:01:45.940 --> 01:01:48.920
has to go off, the other person can sort of shift

01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:51.139
their schedule around to make sure that they've

01:01:51.139 --> 01:01:54.099
got room to at least be able to touch base and

01:01:54.099 --> 01:01:56.500
sort of keep treatment going. I was like, great.

01:01:56.619 --> 01:01:58.260
When is this being implemented? They're like,

01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:00.800
oh, we don't know. It'll all depend on budgets

01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:02.639
and whether or not they can actually afford a

01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:08.599
second social worker. I was like, what? I'm like,

01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:13.329
you have to be kidding me. You know, you know

01:02:13.329 --> 01:02:15.690
that this is a problem. You know that this will

01:02:15.690 --> 01:02:20.329
potentially fix the problem. But you don't know

01:02:20.329 --> 01:02:23.590
if you're going to do it. Like, how much did

01:02:23.590 --> 01:02:25.809
you spend on my brother's funeral and moving

01:02:25.809 --> 01:02:28.449
and his life insurance and this payment and that

01:02:28.449 --> 01:02:32.010
payment and whatever? Like, it's got to be worth

01:02:32.010 --> 01:02:38.030
the social worker. But I think, you know, because

01:02:38.030 --> 01:02:41.760
of the way that COVID hit. you know, when John

01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:43.119
was at home, because he was in the transition

01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.360
unit, so he wasn't training every day. So he

01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:50.059
was at home alone. And, you know, puttering around,

01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:51.679
I mean, his fiance was there in the evenings,

01:02:51.699 --> 01:02:54.000
but she worked. So he was home most of the day

01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:56.460
by himself working on his models or writing a

01:02:56.460 --> 01:02:58.760
poem or, you know, playing his guitar or whatever.

01:02:59.679 --> 01:03:03.739
But really not being the normal productive individual

01:03:03.739 --> 01:03:08.960
that he typically would have been. And Then on

01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:11.420
top of that, he loses this social worker because

01:03:11.420 --> 01:03:15.739
of COVID related reasons. And so, you know, things

01:03:15.739 --> 01:03:18.579
just sort of compounded from there. And I can't

01:03:18.579 --> 01:03:23.699
help but, you know, put some blame there to say

01:03:23.699 --> 01:03:25.880
like, you know, that it certainly didn't help

01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:29.920
the situation. But it's interesting to me where

01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:34.760
else we might see sort of that compounding situation

01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:37.599
and whether or not we can actually make it better.

01:03:38.429 --> 01:03:42.710
going forward well even again my white belt perspective

01:03:42.710 --> 01:03:45.130
having you know learned from so many of these

01:03:45.130 --> 01:03:47.869
people that come on the show you look at obviously

01:03:47.869 --> 01:03:51.710
the the trauma that he saw during combat i'm

01:03:51.710 --> 01:03:53.590
assuming there was probably some exposure to

01:03:53.590 --> 01:03:56.070
some sort of tbi if not then again the ice hockey

01:03:56.070 --> 01:03:59.070
before you've got that loss of tribe when he

01:03:59.070 --> 01:04:00.969
leaves you know the the men and women that he

01:04:00.969 --> 01:04:03.610
was serving alongside you've got that you know

01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:05.880
perceived loss of purpose as he's thinking about

01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:07.739
transitioning out or what am i going to do next

01:04:07.739 --> 01:04:09.519
you've got the financial strain you've got the

01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:12.340
relationship strain then you add in covid so

01:04:12.340 --> 01:04:14.679
now you've got isolation then you remove the

01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:16.699
social worker and now here we are that perfect

01:04:16.699 --> 01:04:18.820
storm that we talked about i'm not saying it's

01:04:18.820 --> 01:04:21.619
exactly a cut but if you're thinking about you

01:04:21.619 --> 01:04:27.159
know the the the the algorithm that someone's

01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:29.179
going to be more likely to be in crisis you're

01:04:29.179 --> 01:04:33.190
seeing these pieces And so if a ding dong podcaster

01:04:33.190 --> 01:04:35.630
can, you know, see this and like you said, something

01:04:35.630 --> 01:04:38.309
as big as the Canadian military or U .S. military

01:04:38.309 --> 01:04:41.590
or, you know, the U .S. fire service, we should

01:04:41.590 --> 01:04:43.329
be able to put these pieces and go, OK, well,

01:04:43.389 --> 01:04:45.550
this is someone we really need to take, you know,

01:04:45.550 --> 01:04:47.349
to keep an eye on. You know, we've got alcoholism

01:04:47.349 --> 01:04:48.789
and all these other things that are factored

01:04:48.789 --> 01:04:51.809
in. And so, yeah, I mean, that that definitely

01:04:51.809 --> 01:04:53.769
sounds like that was something that was missed.

01:04:53.809 --> 01:04:56.530
And going to what you're talking about as far

01:04:56.530 --> 01:04:59.929
as the. The response that you got, and this mirrors

01:04:59.929 --> 01:05:04.250
your work in accounting on the healthcare side

01:05:04.250 --> 01:05:07.909
too. If there's one term that summarizes most

01:05:07.909 --> 01:05:11.409
of the issues that I've seen everywhere, it's

01:05:11.409 --> 01:05:15.090
false economy. That people will spend so much

01:05:15.090 --> 01:05:18.690
money downstream rather than just invest at the

01:05:18.690 --> 01:05:20.590
beginning. And the fire service is a perfect

01:05:20.590 --> 01:05:24.570
example. They are bleeding millions of dollars.

01:05:25.449 --> 01:05:28.110
Over time, it's filling vacancies for recruitment

01:05:28.110 --> 01:05:30.969
crisis, from retention crisis, which is coming

01:05:30.969 --> 01:05:32.610
from the fact that they don't take care of their

01:05:32.610 --> 01:05:35.150
people and young people are deterred by that.

01:05:35.829 --> 01:05:38.030
And then you add in, obviously, the mental health,

01:05:38.050 --> 01:05:39.889
physical health, all the injuries, the line of

01:05:39.889 --> 01:05:42.969
duty deaths, the disability payments, the lawsuits

01:05:42.969 --> 01:05:45.070
from mistakes that we make. I mean, it's just

01:05:45.070 --> 01:05:46.829
millions and millions and millions. And I don't

01:05:46.829 --> 01:05:51.269
understand why these financial gurus of these

01:05:51.269 --> 01:05:53.150
establishments aren't going and saying, well,

01:05:53.190 --> 01:05:56.500
hey. If we put in a second healthcare worker

01:05:56.500 --> 01:06:00.079
and a social worker, that would help us save

01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:02.599
millions and millions. Instead, we seem to let

01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:04.739
everyone die first and then go, oh, maybe we

01:06:04.739 --> 01:06:07.519
should fix that. And I don't understand why there's

01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:10.139
not more proactive thinking in these organizations.

01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:14.059
Yeah, I completely agree. And it's funny because

01:06:14.059 --> 01:06:17.420
I did bring that up with a regimental sergeant

01:06:17.420 --> 01:06:22.340
major up here. he's retired now, but at the time

01:06:22.340 --> 01:06:26.280
he was involved to some degree. And, you know,

01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:28.219
I said to him, I was like, look, I've got ideas.

01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:29.820
Like, I think you just need to sit down with

01:06:29.820 --> 01:06:32.219
me. And like, I've got some ideas on how I think

01:06:32.219 --> 01:06:34.039
that you can fix some of these things, you know,

01:06:34.039 --> 01:06:37.280
like God, these, these guys can't go and take

01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:40.000
a shit without asking for permission first. And

01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:41.880
then you, you know, put them in the transition

01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:45.480
unit and now they're expected to be. civilians

01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:48.760
and like make decisions for themselves and, you

01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:52.340
know, do all of these things. And I said, I think

01:06:52.340 --> 01:06:54.260
there needs to be like the programming needs

01:06:54.260 --> 01:06:56.400
to change a bit in the transition unit. And he's

01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:59.559
like, yeah, yeah. Budgets, you know, this, that,

01:06:59.699 --> 01:07:01.780
that we do have programming. They don't all do

01:07:01.780 --> 01:07:03.679
it. And I was like, well, why don't you just

01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:05.880
make them do it? Well, we can't. I was like,

01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:08.539
but you can make them do all those other things.

01:07:08.579 --> 01:07:10.320
Like it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:12.679
But anyway, one of the things that I said to

01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:16.659
him was. look it, there's 1 % of the population

01:07:16.659 --> 01:07:19.940
who joined the military who are going to do it

01:07:19.940 --> 01:07:26.579
for life. Maybe, maybe 1%. I was like, why aren't

01:07:26.579 --> 01:07:29.400
you talking about, you know, transferable skills

01:07:29.400 --> 01:07:36.219
and life after military and whatever from basic

01:07:36.219 --> 01:07:40.079
training? Like help these 18 year olds understand.

01:07:41.869 --> 01:07:45.610
how they can take their military career into

01:07:45.610 --> 01:07:50.010
being productive civilians after the fact. And

01:07:50.010 --> 01:07:51.769
yeah, sure, you're still going to have training

01:07:51.769 --> 01:07:53.989
accidents, you're still going to have, you know,

01:07:53.989 --> 01:07:58.570
bad knees and terrible backs. But, you know,

01:07:58.570 --> 01:08:01.889
help them think about what that transition might

01:08:01.889 --> 01:08:05.250
look like for them so that they're not 18 years

01:08:05.250 --> 01:08:09.090
in like john was and all of a sudden going oh

01:08:09.090 --> 01:08:13.710
shit now what am i gonna do um you know how am

01:08:13.710 --> 01:08:17.949
i gonna feed my kids and and i said and also

01:08:17.949 --> 01:08:22.250
like why isn't mental wellness a discussion from

01:08:22.250 --> 01:08:26.529
the first day Like, why aren't you training them

01:08:26.529 --> 01:08:30.609
with good coping skills and, you know, all of

01:08:30.609 --> 01:08:35.050
these things? Instead, it's good job, boys. Way

01:08:35.050 --> 01:08:37.810
to train hard today. Let's all go grab a beer

01:08:37.810 --> 01:08:40.649
at the pub. Sure, we all grab a beer after work.

01:08:40.750 --> 01:08:43.829
No problem. You know, it's a very North American.

01:08:44.529 --> 01:08:49.909
It's really a very global thing to do. But, you

01:08:49.909 --> 01:08:53.029
know, we know that mental wellness is an issue.

01:08:53.789 --> 01:08:56.310
within the military particularly for those who

01:08:56.310 --> 01:08:59.869
go on to deployments and whatever else and so

01:08:59.869 --> 01:09:04.189
why aren't we training for that in order to get

01:09:04.189 --> 01:09:07.029
the longevity that we need out of them also as

01:09:07.029 --> 01:09:13.909
soldiers anyway they haven't started it so clearly

01:09:13.909 --> 01:09:17.090
it fell on deaf ears but well this is i've talked

01:09:17.090 --> 01:09:19.350
about this in the fire service as well now that

01:09:19.350 --> 01:09:22.569
we know in the mental health space, in the psychology,

01:09:22.710 --> 01:09:26.529
psychiatry, et cetera, that a large percentage

01:09:26.529 --> 01:09:30.189
of us who put on a uniform have got stuff in

01:09:30.189 --> 01:09:32.170
our early life. And I say stuff because it doesn't,

01:09:32.170 --> 01:09:35.329
A, have to be all bad. And then B, I truly believe

01:09:35.329 --> 01:09:38.090
if it's a dress, that becomes a strength. That

01:09:38.090 --> 01:09:39.909
really does. It's like that, you know, fixing

01:09:39.909 --> 01:09:42.550
Japanese pottery with the gold glue. I think

01:09:42.550 --> 01:09:45.390
it adds to your empathy, your resilience, all

01:09:45.390 --> 01:09:47.970
the things that we need to be great in the military,

01:09:48.010 --> 01:09:50.510
in the first responder professions. So why are

01:09:50.510 --> 01:09:52.649
we not having a conversation at the front door

01:09:52.649 --> 01:09:55.229
saying the fact that you're all here, you've

01:09:55.229 --> 01:09:57.350
probably been through some shit. And we're going

01:09:57.350 --> 01:09:59.550
to take that from a bad thing to a good thing.

01:09:59.750 --> 01:10:01.850
And we're going to start, you know, working through

01:10:01.850 --> 01:10:03.710
whatever it is. And you can come in and talk

01:10:03.710 --> 01:10:07.140
about, you know, the Bruins. Or we can talk about

01:10:07.140 --> 01:10:09.039
your creepy uncle who molested you when you were

01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:10.279
eight. And obviously, maybe you wouldn't present

01:10:10.279 --> 01:10:13.119
it in quite that way. But we'll start the conversation.

01:10:13.220 --> 01:10:18.199
And then the same way that you do PT as a new

01:10:18.199 --> 01:10:21.039
firefighter, a new police officer, whatever it

01:10:21.039 --> 01:10:24.479
is, it'd be a mental PT. And you frame it in

01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:27.560
a way because when we process this thing, you

01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:29.800
will be able to operate at a higher level. You

01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:32.260
will be able to search that eight -story apartment

01:10:32.260 --> 01:10:35.079
building. And find that child who's hiding under

01:10:35.079 --> 01:10:37.039
the bed. You'll be able to be in a flow state

01:10:37.039 --> 01:10:41.000
during a gunfight, whatever it is. So we're doing

01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:43.779
this to PT your mind. And I think if you frame

01:10:43.779 --> 01:10:46.539
that at the front door, that's how you remove

01:10:46.539 --> 01:10:50.039
stigma. Because you take it from the broken individual

01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:55.239
to forging performance. Absolutely. I totally

01:10:55.239 --> 01:11:00.340
agree with that. I'd love to expand on your perspective

01:11:00.340 --> 01:11:03.359
when it comes to the financial side. I mean,

01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:05.020
obviously you worked in healthcare yourself.

01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:09.560
If you're a queen for a day, how do we package

01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:13.100
the message to actually get people to start proactively

01:11:13.100 --> 01:11:17.079
investing in their people and show the financial

01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:22.420
benefit as well? Yeah, I think that I mean, that's

01:11:22.420 --> 01:11:24.159
the million dollar question, right? Everybody's

01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:25.880
been trying to figure that one out for a decade.

01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:27.579
And if I can come up with it in this podcast,

01:11:27.779 --> 01:11:32.000
I really hope I get paid for it. I'll send you

01:11:32.000 --> 01:11:41.960
a t shirt. Yeah, please. I think, you know, I

01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:45.539
think one of the things that we can that we have

01:11:45.539 --> 01:11:50.500
to start packaging it through is impact on the

01:11:50.500 --> 01:11:54.460
community. And, you know, it's easy to talk about,

01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:59.060
or it's, it's a lot of focus is on, you know,

01:11:59.060 --> 01:12:01.939
the impact on the individual family impacted

01:12:01.939 --> 01:12:07.199
by these situations, or the impact on the individual

01:12:07.199 --> 01:12:10.239
going through it, or the impact on the dollars

01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:13.859
that are spent as a result of death from suicide.

01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:16.899
But we don't really talk about what it means

01:12:16.899 --> 01:12:19.359
from a community perspective. And what I mean

01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:24.560
by that is, you know, right now we have a shortage

01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:27.319
in the military, right? They're having recruitment

01:12:27.319 --> 01:12:30.159
issues. Also, they're trying to figure out how

01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:32.859
they do that. And if we're not keeping people

01:12:32.859 --> 01:12:38.319
strong in the military, in fire, in policing,

01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:42.659
you know, paramedics, etc., all of the branches.

01:12:44.409 --> 01:12:52.489
then we risk going into a chaos state. And, you

01:12:52.489 --> 01:12:57.350
know, with where the world is at, with the ability

01:12:57.350 --> 01:13:01.470
to get goods faster, easier, and by goods, I

01:13:01.470 --> 01:13:03.369
don't necessarily mean good goods, I mean bad

01:13:03.369 --> 01:13:10.689
goods. You know, having those services in place

01:13:10.689 --> 01:13:18.010
is so important. And we look at the homeless

01:13:18.010 --> 01:13:22.329
crisis and we've got it here. I know California's

01:13:22.329 --> 01:13:25.569
got it bad. I don't know how bad it is in Florida,

01:13:25.609 --> 01:13:28.609
although I do go to Florida, but I don't see

01:13:28.609 --> 01:13:32.329
it as often. Maybe you guys haven't figured out.

01:13:32.409 --> 01:13:35.270
I don't know. No, I think it tends to be more

01:13:35.270 --> 01:13:38.050
the densely populated cities. Like the city of

01:13:38.050 --> 01:13:39.649
Gainesville, for example, up the road from me,

01:13:39.689 --> 01:13:41.250
if you go there, there's still a lot of homelessness.

01:13:41.430 --> 01:13:43.770
So I think they just tend to be ushered away

01:13:43.770 --> 01:13:45.729
from certain areas. I don't think it's even better

01:13:45.729 --> 01:13:50.149
specifically. Yeah, that's what I expected. But

01:13:50.149 --> 01:13:54.520
so, you know, we have a homeless crisis. And

01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:56.859
why is that? Some of it is mental health related.

01:13:56.979 --> 01:13:59.220
Some of it is, you know, addictions related,

01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:01.579
which probably stems from a mental health illness.

01:14:01.819 --> 01:14:04.859
And so I think when you start thinking about

01:14:04.859 --> 01:14:09.000
the community impact that we're having, it's

01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:12.079
not just about the individual lives that we're

01:14:12.079 --> 01:14:16.560
losing, although important. But from a financial

01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:19.539
lens, when we start to think about the community

01:14:19.539 --> 01:14:23.979
impact, the increase in We call it welfare up

01:14:23.979 --> 01:14:33.300
here. And the increase in crime, the increase

01:14:33.300 --> 01:14:36.579
in drug usage in the black market or the gray

01:14:36.579 --> 01:14:41.779
market, all of those things that now start to

01:14:41.779 --> 01:14:46.220
become an issue also have a profound financial

01:14:46.220 --> 01:14:50.279
effect on... both the day -to -day citizens,

01:14:50.439 --> 01:14:54.039
but also the nation as a whole. And so when you

01:14:54.039 --> 01:14:57.939
start to add up those dollars, it becomes an

01:14:57.939 --> 01:15:02.420
extremely easy conversation to have in that,

01:15:02.420 --> 01:15:05.060
you know, this amount of money that needs to

01:15:05.060 --> 01:15:08.600
be invested in, you know, mental health, healthcare,

01:15:09.079 --> 01:15:14.079
or whatever. Use mental health, healthcare as

01:15:14.079 --> 01:15:15.960
sort of the umbrella. There's multiple facets

01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:19.470
within that. being, you know, drug rehabilitation,

01:15:20.069 --> 01:15:26.550
you know, psychology supports, whatever, is now

01:15:26.550 --> 01:15:29.789
a drop in the bucket in comparison to the millions

01:15:29.789 --> 01:15:33.270
or billions of dollars that we're spending in,

01:15:33.270 --> 01:15:36.750
you know, overtime for police because we can't

01:15:36.750 --> 01:15:39.710
keep them on the benches because, you know, they're

01:15:39.710 --> 01:15:42.590
out with PTSD or they're, you know, they're quitting

01:15:42.590 --> 01:15:46.170
because they just don't see a life in it. They

01:15:46.170 --> 01:15:50.109
want and but now we've got an increased crime

01:15:50.109 --> 01:15:52.890
rate. So you have to have more police on the

01:15:52.890 --> 01:15:56.029
front lines to begin with. And then, you know,

01:15:56.029 --> 01:15:58.109
and that's leading to different things. And then

01:15:58.109 --> 01:16:00.050
you've got these encampments that are going up

01:16:00.050 --> 01:16:03.329
in flames because the homeless crisis is so bad.

01:16:03.449 --> 01:16:05.510
And, you know, they're cooking in tents in the

01:16:05.510 --> 01:16:10.010
middle of winter. And and, you know, you have

01:16:10.010 --> 01:16:13.590
these people who are. you know, potentially dying

01:16:13.590 --> 01:16:17.689
in these encampments because of these fires that

01:16:17.689 --> 01:16:20.069
start to happen. And you've got, you know, fire

01:16:20.069 --> 01:16:22.250
and paramedics who all need to be on the front

01:16:22.250 --> 01:16:25.350
lines for that. But they're also short staffed

01:16:25.350 --> 01:16:27.090
right now. So you start to think about these

01:16:27.090 --> 01:16:32.310
bigger community issues and tally it all together

01:16:32.310 --> 01:16:37.630
and really realize that the middle hub. Going

01:16:37.630 --> 01:16:39.850
out with all of these spokes to all of these

01:16:39.850 --> 01:16:43.270
different problems is mental health. And if we

01:16:43.270 --> 01:16:46.590
could just fix the problem instead of putting

01:16:46.590 --> 01:16:51.529
band -aids on the symptoms, then the amount of

01:16:51.529 --> 01:16:56.590
money that we spend would be far less. I've used

01:16:56.590 --> 01:16:59.310
that example. Another great analogy is the NHS

01:16:59.310 --> 01:17:02.729
in the UK, which I grew up with in the 70s and

01:17:02.729 --> 01:17:05.289
80s when I was tiny. It was amazing. And that

01:17:05.289 --> 01:17:07.210
was when it was fully funded and supported and

01:17:07.210 --> 01:17:09.670
hadn't been privatized yet or partially privatized.

01:17:10.189 --> 01:17:12.369
But also the British people were healthy back

01:17:12.369 --> 01:17:15.729
then. And if you look at it today, partial privatization,

01:17:15.869 --> 01:17:18.590
the obesity epidemic has exploded in the UK.

01:17:19.369 --> 01:17:21.430
And there's always this thing, oh, we need more

01:17:21.430 --> 01:17:23.949
money, we need more money. And I disagree. You

01:17:23.949 --> 01:17:26.640
need to make British people healthy again. So

01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:28.140
what are you serving in the schools? Are there

01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:32.180
still PE programs? All the kind of elements that

01:17:32.180 --> 01:17:34.920
contribute to this. What is your stance on all

01:17:34.920 --> 01:17:38.319
these fast food companies just saturating your

01:17:38.319 --> 01:17:41.500
market? How can we get back to how we lived in

01:17:41.500 --> 01:17:44.359
the 70s and 80s? And once you free up all that

01:17:44.359 --> 01:17:46.199
money, well, there's your money to support all

01:17:46.199 --> 01:17:48.579
the other things that you need. So it's not a

01:17:48.579 --> 01:17:51.039
bad. And America is obviously even worse because

01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:54.390
we are 73%. obese or overweight now i think it's

01:17:54.390 --> 01:17:58.430
43 clinically obese 43 so there's your money

01:17:58.430 --> 01:18:01.510
you make americans healthy again i think someone

01:18:01.510 --> 01:18:03.010
told me the other day that our health care is

01:18:03.010 --> 01:18:08.069
20 of our gdp so we don't need any more money

01:18:08.069 --> 01:18:10.710
the money is there it's just proactively investing

01:18:10.710 --> 01:18:14.649
and if we bolstered pe programs and sport programs

01:18:14.649 --> 01:18:16.930
not only in schools but in communities where

01:18:16.930 --> 01:18:18.529
you didn't have to spend a hundred dollars to

01:18:18.529 --> 01:18:21.050
rent a field for your kids to play and you put

01:18:21.050 --> 01:18:23.449
real food back in schools and you pedestrianize

01:18:23.449 --> 01:18:25.949
downtowns and work more on public transport and

01:18:25.949 --> 01:18:29.149
all these other things, you would turn everything

01:18:29.149 --> 01:18:31.189
around and there is your money. You look at the

01:18:31.189 --> 01:18:34.090
way Portugal decriminalized addiction. They took

01:18:34.090 --> 01:18:36.869
the money on the failed war on drugs and they

01:18:36.869 --> 01:18:39.109
put it into addiction counseling, mental health

01:18:39.109 --> 01:18:42.010
counseling, job creation, housing. And in eight

01:18:42.010 --> 01:18:43.970
years, they turned theirs from the worst to the

01:18:43.970 --> 01:18:46.569
best in either Europe or the world. I still need

01:18:46.569 --> 01:18:50.840
to look that up. But incredible turnaround. So

01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:53.380
it's not about more money. More money to pay

01:18:53.380 --> 01:18:55.319
for the same shit that you're doing isn't going

01:18:55.319 --> 01:18:57.640
to fix anything. But you take the money that

01:18:57.640 --> 01:18:59.960
you're bleeding and you put it at the front and

01:18:59.960 --> 01:19:02.739
you invest, as you said, in these proactive preventative

01:19:02.739 --> 01:19:05.460
programs. Then you have all that money downstream

01:19:05.460 --> 01:19:07.420
that you're not wasting anymore that you can

01:19:07.420 --> 01:19:11.739
put and amplify your solutions. Well, you know,

01:19:11.739 --> 01:19:13.220
I think it's interesting because in the Canadian

01:19:13.220 --> 01:19:15.760
market, we have universal health care up here.

01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:21.930
And so, you know, it's free. Um, but it isn't,

01:19:21.930 --> 01:19:23.890
it isn't necessarily, well, first of all, people

01:19:23.890 --> 01:19:26.130
don't understand how much tax we pay to go to

01:19:26.130 --> 01:19:30.449
our healthcare. Um, but that's a, that's an accountant

01:19:30.449 --> 01:19:34.609
question for a different day. Um, but you know,

01:19:34.630 --> 01:19:39.050
one of the things that strikes me as odd is mental

01:19:39.050 --> 01:19:45.489
health, healthcare is not free. Really? No. So

01:19:45.489 --> 01:19:48.250
there are small, short programs that you can

01:19:48.250 --> 01:19:52.550
do. For instance, you know, I had a difficult

01:19:52.550 --> 01:19:57.050
time a couple of years ago through burnout at

01:19:57.050 --> 01:19:59.770
work and dealing with my brother and my father

01:19:59.770 --> 01:20:02.470
-in -law just passed. And I just basically reached

01:20:02.470 --> 01:20:05.550
my breaking point and had a call with my family

01:20:05.550 --> 01:20:07.869
GP. And she's like, I'm sending you a letter.

01:20:08.449 --> 01:20:10.770
I'm sending a summary of your chart. You need

01:20:10.770 --> 01:20:13.270
to go to emerge. Like we have to get you in with

01:20:13.270 --> 01:20:15.789
a mental health care specialist. And the fastest

01:20:15.789 --> 01:20:19.680
way to do that is to go through emergency. So

01:20:19.680 --> 01:20:22.739
off I went through emergency, sat there for five

01:20:22.739 --> 01:20:26.979
hours. And by that point, I had cried for so

01:20:26.979 --> 01:20:29.840
long that I was just exhausted. And they're like,

01:20:29.920 --> 01:20:31.479
well, you can sit here for another three more

01:20:31.479 --> 01:20:34.659
hours and, you know, maybe talk to somebody,

01:20:34.819 --> 01:20:39.359
maybe. Or you can take this green piece of paper

01:20:39.359 --> 01:20:42.229
and come back tomorrow. And I was like, I'm taking

01:20:42.229 --> 01:20:43.829
the green piece of paper and I'm coming back

01:20:43.829 --> 01:20:46.170
tomorrow. You know, I had my husband with me.

01:20:46.189 --> 01:20:48.989
They knew that I was safe. There was no issues

01:20:48.989 --> 01:20:51.989
that way. But, you know, as I'm about ready to

01:20:51.989 --> 01:20:55.069
leave, would you like an Ativan? No, I'm good,

01:20:55.109 --> 01:21:03.819
man. That's not going to help me. And it's done

01:21:03.819 --> 01:21:06.039
with the best of intentions, but they just can't

01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:09.600
help you. And so then I got into this program

01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:12.920
at the hospital to help with coping skills and

01:21:12.920 --> 01:21:16.079
stress management. But it's a defined three or

01:21:16.079 --> 01:21:19.899
four sessions. And then you can maybe get yourself

01:21:19.899 --> 01:21:22.239
into another program, but you have to see the

01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:24.239
psychologist first and you get to see him once

01:21:24.239 --> 01:21:27.560
for free. But then after that. you know, because

01:21:27.560 --> 01:21:30.739
you've gone through emergency. But then after

01:21:30.739 --> 01:21:32.880
that, it's not free. And, you know, up here,

01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:36.000
it's a psychologist or a psychiatrist will run

01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:40.359
you on average, probably about $250, $275 an

01:21:40.359 --> 01:21:44.420
hour. And who has money for that after all the

01:21:44.420 --> 01:21:47.319
tax we pay to pay for our healthcare system?

01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:54.039
And so, you know, it's very frustrating to me

01:21:54.039 --> 01:21:58.350
when You know, we talk about, oh, you know, health

01:21:58.350 --> 01:22:00.750
care and, you know, we're spending so much money

01:22:00.750 --> 01:22:02.250
on health care and we need more money for health

01:22:02.250 --> 01:22:05.710
care when many of the issues, including obesity,

01:22:05.970 --> 01:22:13.149
stem from mental health challenges. But we're

01:22:13.149 --> 01:22:16.569
not addressing any of that as part of our health

01:22:16.569 --> 01:22:20.510
care. And it's not something that we do. Oh,

01:22:20.670 --> 01:22:26.050
you're feeling sad today? Here, take some SSRIs.

01:22:28.069 --> 01:22:30.409
That's it. That's the extent of our mental health

01:22:30.409 --> 01:22:33.369
healthcare. And I think that it's such a miss

01:22:33.369 --> 01:22:38.409
when we know that so many problems, anxiety,

01:22:38.869 --> 01:22:44.449
depression, all of those things are all big contributors

01:22:44.449 --> 01:22:52.850
to employee um productivity issues and um substance

01:22:52.850 --> 01:22:59.909
abuse so like it's an easy conversation and i

01:22:59.909 --> 01:23:02.489
don't understand why nobody else gets it well

01:23:02.489 --> 01:23:05.170
and there there are models where all these things

01:23:05.170 --> 01:23:07.590
have worked like the nhs again don't look at

01:23:07.590 --> 01:23:11.550
2026 but when it was fully supported was i would

01:23:11.550 --> 01:23:14.210
argue the best health care system on the planet

01:23:14.970 --> 01:23:17.430
All of us are going to stay healthy so that anyone

01:23:17.430 --> 01:23:19.930
who needs help, we're going to chip in. You're

01:23:19.930 --> 01:23:21.350
all going to get help because one day it'll be

01:23:21.350 --> 01:23:22.949
our turn. If you're worried about turns, you'll

01:23:22.949 --> 01:23:25.069
be old. You'll get hit by a bus once if you went

01:23:25.069 --> 01:23:28.329
to Valley for money. But I'd rather be healthy

01:23:28.329 --> 01:23:31.229
and help other people personally. But yeah, so

01:23:31.229 --> 01:23:32.909
when people are pregnant, when God forbid they

01:23:32.909 --> 01:23:35.250
do get cancer or they do have a nasty accident

01:23:35.250 --> 01:23:38.199
or they're just simply end of life. They will

01:23:38.199 --> 01:23:40.060
take care of you. That's the ultimate, it takes

01:23:40.060 --> 01:23:42.640
a village model. And it's beautiful. And if you

01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:44.460
look at places that have done it, going back

01:23:44.460 --> 01:23:47.239
to Portugal, people go, oh, well, you know, drug

01:23:47.239 --> 01:23:51.539
users are criminals. Well, no. Addicts are, you

01:23:51.539 --> 01:23:53.880
know, it's a mental health issue. And if they

01:23:53.880 --> 01:23:55.739
commit other crimes, then yeah, that's a crime.

01:23:55.819 --> 01:23:57.359
If they beat someone up and steal their purse,

01:23:57.479 --> 01:24:00.579
separate conversation. But what happened in Portugal

01:24:00.579 --> 01:24:03.939
is by putting their addiction into the hands

01:24:03.939 --> 01:24:05.720
of the mental health, you know, the medical community.

01:24:06.640 --> 01:24:08.439
Now, what do you think that did for law enforcement?

01:24:08.739 --> 01:24:11.340
All of a sudden, there's all this time now for

01:24:11.340 --> 01:24:14.600
their police to chase the dealers and the smugglers

01:24:14.600 --> 01:24:17.619
and the child sex abusers and all the people

01:24:17.619 --> 01:24:20.479
that our police should be pursuing. Rather than

01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:23.760
if you look at cops in the 90s, a TV show, car

01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:26.979
chase, you know, beating them up. And then, look,

01:24:27.079 --> 01:24:29.300
see, there was some marijuana. You know, that's

01:24:29.300 --> 01:24:31.619
that's how it used to be. And that's taxpayers

01:24:31.619 --> 01:24:35.119
money. So when you put it in the right area.

01:24:35.640 --> 01:24:37.800
all of a sudden, like you said, it frees up all

01:24:37.800 --> 01:24:40.619
these resources for other things. And now you're

01:24:40.619 --> 01:24:42.699
doubling down on the things that actually need

01:24:42.699 --> 01:24:44.939
to be addressed. And I couldn't agree with you

01:24:44.939 --> 01:24:47.619
more. I mean, there's a great story Johan Hari

01:24:47.619 --> 01:24:50.899
wrote about in Chasing the Scream. And I'll kind

01:24:50.899 --> 01:24:54.520
of summarize it. They did an IV study on obesity.

01:24:54.659 --> 01:24:56.840
So they gave all these subjects just IV nutrition.

01:24:57.079 --> 01:24:58.979
And they had this one woman, I think her name

01:24:58.979 --> 01:25:01.760
was Amy, who was a rock star of the group. And

01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:03.920
she lost the most weight. And then one day she

01:25:03.920 --> 01:25:06.279
just disappeared. And they finally tracked her

01:25:06.279 --> 01:25:08.460
down and she'd started eating again and ballooned.

01:25:08.880 --> 01:25:11.960
And one of the researchers was astute and sat

01:25:11.960 --> 01:25:16.279
her down and said, well, when do you remember

01:25:16.279 --> 01:25:19.520
starting to eat the way that you did? Oh, I was

01:25:19.520 --> 01:25:22.619
about 11. And he said, was there anything significant

01:25:22.619 --> 01:25:24.560
that happened to you when you were 11? She said,

01:25:24.600 --> 01:25:26.319
yeah, that's when my grandfather started sexually

01:25:26.319 --> 01:25:31.239
abusing me. So psychologically, she got to the

01:25:31.239 --> 01:25:33.810
point where she was slim. had started getting

01:25:33.810 --> 01:25:36.670
attention of the opposite sex again, and it put

01:25:36.670 --> 01:25:39.010
up the fight or flight response, and she didn't

01:25:39.010 --> 01:25:42.949
want that. So she ate to remove that. So, you

01:25:42.949 --> 01:25:44.630
know, and then we all know, obviously, the dopamine

01:25:44.630 --> 01:25:46.229
hits and all that stuff when it comes to the

01:25:46.229 --> 01:25:50.369
fast food is engineered to prey on that. So I

01:25:50.369 --> 01:25:52.630
couldn't agree more. Even the obesity crisis

01:25:52.630 --> 01:25:56.130
is partly, you know, the mental health crisis

01:25:56.130 --> 01:25:58.369
and obviously the environment too. If you've

01:25:58.369 --> 01:26:00.489
got no activity and fast food everywhere, of

01:26:00.489 --> 01:26:02.359
course. You're a product of your environment.

01:26:02.600 --> 01:26:05.260
If we can change that environment, too, and address

01:26:05.260 --> 01:26:08.180
the mental health side, you would save trillions

01:26:08.180 --> 01:26:11.600
of dollars. Well, and I think, you know, like,

01:26:11.659 --> 01:26:15.020
look, we're I don't know what the US is doing

01:26:15.020 --> 01:26:17.199
right now. I don't pay that close of attention

01:26:17.199 --> 01:26:19.779
because who knows what kind of information you're

01:26:19.779 --> 01:26:21.720
getting on the news these days. But, you know,

01:26:21.720 --> 01:26:24.760
we've got this carbon tax up here on, you know,

01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:28.770
on. fuel and things, or we've had it, they've

01:26:28.770 --> 01:26:30.670
decreased it or gotten rid of it finally now.

01:26:30.770 --> 01:26:34.149
But, but we had this massive carbon tax up here,

01:26:34.210 --> 01:26:35.789
because, you know, we were going to save the

01:26:35.789 --> 01:26:40.710
planet with it. And, but we don't have a fast

01:26:40.710 --> 01:26:44.930
food tax. But think about the money that you

01:26:44.930 --> 01:26:47.869
could generate for the healthcare system to deal

01:26:47.869 --> 01:26:52.729
with eating issues. And, you know, addiction

01:26:52.729 --> 01:26:56.369
issues and whatever else, if you started taxing,

01:26:56.369 --> 01:26:59.489
you know, unhealthy fast foods and whatever,

01:26:59.590 --> 01:27:01.170
they would have to come up with some calculation

01:27:01.170 --> 01:27:05.090
for that, I'm sure. But start taxing unhealthy

01:27:05.090 --> 01:27:10.289
fast foods that so that, you know, fast food

01:27:10.289 --> 01:27:15.270
is now not cheaper than an apple. Like, why is

01:27:15.270 --> 01:27:17.529
a Big Mac cheaper than an apple? Somebody explain

01:27:17.529 --> 01:27:19.850
it. I don't think it is anymore. I think there's

01:27:19.850 --> 01:27:22.130
been a shift. I mean, now if you go to a fast

01:27:22.130 --> 01:27:24.130
food place and try and feed a family of four

01:27:24.130 --> 01:27:27.250
and then go to the grocery store, I guarantee

01:27:27.250 --> 01:27:29.029
you could feed your family cheaper at the grocery

01:27:29.029 --> 01:27:32.550
store now, which is a great thing. It is a great

01:27:32.550 --> 01:27:34.829
thing. But the problem is, is it wasn't for so

01:27:34.829 --> 01:27:40.350
long. And now we're all addicted to it. If we

01:27:40.350 --> 01:27:42.409
continue to make it more expensive, eventually

01:27:42.409 --> 01:27:45.430
you have to drive people back. And so I think

01:27:45.430 --> 01:27:49.649
that's where we, you know, I think that's a miss,

01:27:49.909 --> 01:27:52.810
right? Like, let's start, if we're going to have

01:27:52.810 --> 01:27:55.890
these governments, particularly here, who are

01:27:55.890 --> 01:27:58.670
going to tax people into the behaviors that they

01:27:58.670 --> 01:28:01.630
want them to have, like, this is one that we

01:28:01.630 --> 01:28:05.159
need to think about. We need to be eating healthy.

01:28:05.239 --> 01:28:08.840
We need to be, you know, exercising. And I'm

01:28:08.840 --> 01:28:13.420
not I need to do that more to myself. Really

01:28:13.420 --> 01:28:19.380
great up here on my pedestal. But, you know,

01:28:19.380 --> 01:28:23.000
we need to be doing those things and and then

01:28:23.000 --> 01:28:26.640
taking that money and using it for the betterment

01:28:26.640 --> 01:28:29.119
of the mental health of our people, because ultimately

01:28:29.119 --> 01:28:31.699
that is going to make our community stronger.

01:28:33.459 --> 01:28:36.260
Absolutely. Well, I want to kind of go back to

01:28:36.260 --> 01:28:41.039
November 22nd, 2021. Walk me through how you

01:28:41.039 --> 01:28:45.039
now were able to navigate that grief. And I'm

01:28:45.039 --> 01:28:47.539
sure it's not over yet by any means, but start

01:28:47.539 --> 01:28:51.039
to trying to get around that yourself. And then

01:28:51.039 --> 01:28:53.720
how did that lead to Operation Talk To Me, Johnny?

01:28:54.800 --> 01:29:01.609
Yeah. It was a Monday. It started like any other

01:29:01.609 --> 01:29:06.409
day. I was crazy busy with work. Back in those

01:29:06.409 --> 01:29:09.109
days, my husband and I are both professionals.

01:29:09.310 --> 01:29:12.649
We put all of our eggs into our work basket.

01:29:12.750 --> 01:29:16.750
We don't have any kids. We work a lot. We work

01:29:16.750 --> 01:29:20.750
70, 80 hours a week. It really drove our life.

01:29:22.689 --> 01:29:27.140
I can remember leading up to the 22nd. having

01:29:27.140 --> 01:29:29.720
these nightmares that actually my father passed

01:29:29.720 --> 01:29:32.899
away and you know we hadn't been to see them

01:29:32.899 --> 01:29:36.180
in you know a couple of months and you know how

01:29:36.180 --> 01:29:39.380
dare I basically this guilt that had come up

01:29:39.380 --> 01:29:41.819
because you know I lost this person because I

01:29:41.819 --> 01:29:46.699
hadn't prioritized them in my life and um and

01:29:46.699 --> 01:29:49.000
so you know it was kind of unsettling and but

01:29:49.490 --> 01:29:51.770
My parents were always very supportive of my

01:29:51.770 --> 01:29:53.569
career, so I just sort of kept doing what I was

01:29:53.569 --> 01:29:56.409
doing. And I realize now it was a bit of a warning.

01:29:57.029 --> 01:30:00.010
And I wish I had have listened to it a bit more,

01:30:00.130 --> 01:30:05.949
but hindsight is what it is. And so I spoke to

01:30:05.949 --> 01:30:08.069
my parents. I was having some sort of inner ear

01:30:08.069 --> 01:30:10.670
infection and had to go to the doctors. But I

01:30:10.670 --> 01:30:12.510
was trying to work and do all of these things

01:30:12.510 --> 01:30:14.770
because we had this big restructuring that was

01:30:14.770 --> 01:30:17.930
coming up. And I was front and center in all

01:30:17.930 --> 01:30:22.909
of that. And so I spoke to my dad that evening,

01:30:22.930 --> 01:30:25.149
gave him the update on how I was feeling, went

01:30:25.149 --> 01:30:30.289
to bed early that night. And because I was so

01:30:30.289 --> 01:30:32.510
stressed out and getting so burnt out with work,

01:30:32.590 --> 01:30:35.550
I actually had my phone on that like do not disturb,

01:30:35.670 --> 01:30:40.050
like bedtime feature. And which I loved back

01:30:40.050 --> 01:30:42.069
in the day. And now I refuse to use ever again

01:30:42.069 --> 01:30:45.010
because my parents called me, but they called

01:30:45.010 --> 01:30:49.000
me from different phones. So at midnight, my

01:30:49.000 --> 01:30:51.579
parents started calling me after the OPP had

01:30:51.579 --> 01:30:55.359
shown up to give them the news. And dad called

01:30:55.359 --> 01:30:57.399
me and then mom called me. But because the same

01:30:57.399 --> 01:30:59.380
number didn't call back to back, it didn't come

01:30:59.380 --> 01:31:03.960
through. And had it not gone to my watch, I wouldn't

01:31:03.960 --> 01:31:08.659
have even gotten the call at all. And so I remember

01:31:08.659 --> 01:31:12.159
looking at my watch and being like, dad's calling

01:31:12.159 --> 01:31:14.920
and then seeing the time and knowing immediately

01:31:14.920 --> 01:31:20.560
like my. throat like my gut just lurched I knew

01:31:20.560 --> 01:31:25.199
that something was terribly wrong and um I was

01:31:25.199 --> 01:31:27.539
like holy shit like this dream is coming true

01:31:27.539 --> 01:31:31.020
something has happened to one of my parents and

01:31:31.020 --> 01:31:33.619
so I got on the phone and I immediately and didn't

01:31:33.619 --> 01:31:36.199
say hello didn't say anything it was dad what's

01:31:36.199 --> 01:31:42.020
wrong and um and he he said your brother hung

01:31:42.020 --> 01:31:49.010
himself and I was like what the And I just screamed.

01:31:50.229 --> 01:31:53.289
And my poor husband jumps out of bed having no

01:31:53.289 --> 01:31:55.489
fucking idea what's going on. Sorry, I hope I'm

01:31:55.489 --> 01:32:00.210
allowed to swear. No, you are. And, you know,

01:32:00.210 --> 01:32:03.270
and whatever. And so my dad's like, is Tom awake?

01:32:03.369 --> 01:32:05.310
And I was like, yeah, he just woke up. And he's

01:32:05.310 --> 01:32:09.109
like, give him the phone. And I was, okay. And

01:32:09.109 --> 01:32:12.800
I was just in this state of shock. and like complete

01:32:12.800 --> 01:32:14.800
disbelief. I couldn't figure out if I was just

01:32:14.800 --> 01:32:17.319
having, you know, the worst nightmare of my life

01:32:17.319 --> 01:32:20.079
or if I was actually going through this. And

01:32:20.079 --> 01:32:23.260
so dad got on the phone with Tom and, you know,

01:32:23.260 --> 01:32:26.199
explained to Tom what had happened and, um, and

01:32:26.199 --> 01:32:28.439
told him like, just take care of her, just take

01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:31.819
care of her. And, uh, and Tom's like, yep, no

01:32:31.819 --> 01:32:35.039
problem, John, don't worry about it. And my dad's

01:32:35.039 --> 01:32:38.420
name is also John. And so they got off the phone.

01:32:39.000 --> 01:32:41.159
And we just sat there and I couldn't breathe.

01:32:41.220 --> 01:32:43.220
And so my husband just kind of hugged me for

01:32:43.220 --> 01:32:45.600
a few minutes until I could, you know, catch

01:32:45.600 --> 01:32:49.000
my breath and, and, you know, kind of come back

01:32:49.000 --> 01:32:53.159
to my body a little bit. And he finally looked

01:32:53.159 --> 01:32:56.840
at me and thank God, he's like, should we get

01:32:56.840 --> 01:32:59.720
packed? And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, that's

01:32:59.720 --> 01:33:05.380
what we're gonna do. And so, you know, we got

01:33:05.380 --> 01:33:10.479
up, we got packed. and put through a bunch of

01:33:10.479 --> 01:33:14.319
stuff in, you know, duffel bags. And we were

01:33:14.319 --> 01:33:17.039
out the door. And at that point, I was living

01:33:17.039 --> 01:33:19.260
in Toronto and my parents were about three hours

01:33:19.260 --> 01:33:22.020
away. And so we finally arrived at their place

01:33:22.020 --> 01:33:25.680
about four o 'clock in the morning. And I remember

01:33:25.680 --> 01:33:27.819
pulling in and every light in the house is on.

01:33:28.539 --> 01:33:31.739
And mom and dad are just sitting on the couch

01:33:31.739 --> 01:33:35.500
and they had decorated for Christmas. They had

01:33:35.500 --> 01:33:38.140
just decorated for Christmas that day. And so

01:33:38.140 --> 01:33:40.619
you walk in and the stockings are all hung up

01:33:40.619 --> 01:33:43.020
and the Christmas trees lit up and, you know,

01:33:43.020 --> 01:33:46.359
whatever. And it's like, oh, oh, yeah, that.

01:33:47.859 --> 01:33:50.560
And so anyway, we sat there and we really didn't

01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:53.619
say much at all. You know, we gave each other

01:33:53.619 --> 01:33:56.500
hugs, of course, and cried and and whatever,

01:33:56.579 --> 01:33:58.460
and just sort of sat there for a few minutes.

01:33:58.659 --> 01:34:04.810
And then the phone rang. And it was organ donation

01:34:04.810 --> 01:34:07.869
calling to find out if we wanted to, they couldn't

01:34:07.869 --> 01:34:09.770
take his organs, but they wanted to know if they

01:34:09.770 --> 01:34:11.869
could have, I don't know, his skin and something

01:34:11.869 --> 01:34:17.630
else. And so mom's like, absolutely not. And

01:34:17.630 --> 01:34:21.090
so I was like, okay, I'll call you back. Let

01:34:21.090 --> 01:34:26.090
me call you back. So anyway. I we got off the

01:34:26.090 --> 01:34:28.569
phone with them, sat my mom down, had a conversation

01:34:28.569 --> 01:34:30.930
and she was like, no, I can't do it. I can't

01:34:30.930 --> 01:34:33.310
do it. And I was like, OK, no problem. You can't

01:34:33.310 --> 01:34:36.210
do it. Fine. And so they called back a few minutes

01:34:36.210 --> 01:34:39.130
later and said, like, sorry, but, you know, we

01:34:39.130 --> 01:34:40.970
have to make this decision now. And I was like,

01:34:41.029 --> 01:34:42.430
yeah, unfortunately, we're not going to be able

01:34:42.430 --> 01:34:46.649
to go through with this. Which is like such a

01:34:46.649 --> 01:34:49.750
surreal conversation to be having when only three

01:34:49.750 --> 01:34:52.770
hours before that you found out that, you know,

01:34:52.770 --> 01:34:56.350
your your brother is gone. Right. And now you're

01:34:56.350 --> 01:34:59.890
trying to talk to your parents about whether

01:34:59.890 --> 01:35:02.750
or not they're comfortable with donating any

01:35:02.750 --> 01:35:07.029
part of his body to research. And, you know,

01:35:07.029 --> 01:35:10.069
and in that moment, you know, watching my parents

01:35:10.069 --> 01:35:13.729
break like that in a way that I had never seen,

01:35:13.829 --> 01:35:17.409
you know, they had both lost their both their

01:35:17.409 --> 01:35:21.220
parents. already. And so I had seen those vulnerable

01:35:21.220 --> 01:35:25.020
moments growing up with them. But to watch my

01:35:25.020 --> 01:35:27.760
parents break in this way that I could never

01:35:27.760 --> 01:35:35.979
imagine was the worst feeling of my life. And

01:35:35.979 --> 01:35:41.159
so We all just kind of sat there and it was like,

01:35:41.199 --> 01:35:42.939
okay, who do we need to call? Well, we need to

01:35:42.939 --> 01:35:46.699
call his lawyer because we need to get a few

01:35:46.699 --> 01:35:49.020
things figured out that way because he was still

01:35:49.020 --> 01:35:54.680
battling with his ex -wife. We need to call family

01:35:54.680 --> 01:35:56.699
responsibility office because that's who she

01:35:56.699 --> 01:36:00.579
wanted to go through for the child support payments.

01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:03.600
Ask them to please not take that out of his bank

01:36:03.600 --> 01:36:05.279
account because there won't be any money going

01:36:05.279 --> 01:36:07.720
in. And, you know, we need to call the base and

01:36:07.720 --> 01:36:10.960
we need to let them know. And, you know, starting

01:36:10.960 --> 01:36:12.920
to make this list of like who we have to get

01:36:12.920 --> 01:36:18.619
in contact with. And so, you know, you have to

01:36:18.619 --> 01:36:20.100
kind of sit there and wait for an appropriate

01:36:20.100 --> 01:36:22.439
hour because everything's really important to

01:36:22.439 --> 01:36:24.319
you. But nobody else gives a shit at four o 'clock

01:36:24.319 --> 01:36:28.399
in the morning. OK. And so finally, at eight

01:36:28.399 --> 01:36:32.410
o 'clock, I called the I called the base. And,

01:36:32.410 --> 01:36:36.430
you know, talk to a couple of really very friendly

01:36:36.430 --> 01:36:39.390
people. But they don't know what to do with that

01:36:39.390 --> 01:36:41.430
information. It doesn't typically come to them

01:36:41.430 --> 01:36:45.270
that way. And so our situation and our experience

01:36:45.270 --> 01:36:48.510
was extremely unique, not in a good way. And

01:36:48.510 --> 01:36:52.489
I actually had to call the base three times to

01:36:52.489 --> 01:36:54.529
tell them that my brother had passed before we

01:36:54.529 --> 01:36:58.250
got any action happening. It was really a frustrating

01:36:58.250 --> 01:37:01.989
moment. And one of those moments where I think

01:37:01.989 --> 01:37:04.609
it helped lead me to some understanding of what

01:37:04.609 --> 01:37:07.609
he was dealing with. Because, you know, he was

01:37:07.609 --> 01:37:10.470
trying to get that help. He kept going in and

01:37:10.470 --> 01:37:13.029
asking for referrals to get help. And he kept

01:37:13.029 --> 01:37:15.250
sort of getting the runaround. And that's kind

01:37:15.250 --> 01:37:17.350
of what I got when I was trying to notify them

01:37:17.350 --> 01:37:20.789
of his death. And, you know, I don't blame any

01:37:20.789 --> 01:37:22.810
of the guys over there. I've spoken with many

01:37:22.810 --> 01:37:26.310
of them since then. But it was just a shit show.

01:37:28.470 --> 01:37:30.890
And, you know, called everybody else that we

01:37:30.890 --> 01:37:34.390
needed to call. And and then, of course, people

01:37:34.390 --> 01:37:38.329
just started converging on the house. And, you

01:37:38.329 --> 01:37:41.710
know, we had to go over it at nine o 'clock after

01:37:41.710 --> 01:37:44.710
the kids had gone to school and knock on his

01:37:44.710 --> 01:37:49.069
ex -wife's door and let her know that her children's

01:37:49.069 --> 01:37:52.510
father had passed away. And, you know, it was

01:37:52.510 --> 01:37:56.939
one of those situations where. You know, she

01:37:56.939 --> 01:37:58.579
didn't really like us and we weren't exactly

01:37:58.579 --> 01:38:04.300
friendly with her. And so it was, you need to

01:38:04.300 --> 01:38:06.460
know this. We want to support the boys how we

01:38:06.460 --> 01:38:09.220
can, but also you're going to have to keep some

01:38:09.220 --> 01:38:12.180
distance here because now feelings are really

01:38:12.180 --> 01:38:14.300
raw and we don't want anything happening that

01:38:14.300 --> 01:38:19.680
we can't take back later on. And so she thankfully

01:38:19.680 --> 01:38:24.119
respected that. And we, my mom and I went over

01:38:24.119 --> 01:38:27.989
later that afternoon. And sat with her and her

01:38:27.989 --> 01:38:31.369
parents. And the boys came in off the school

01:38:31.369 --> 01:38:35.130
bus. And his oldest son, who's so much like him,

01:38:35.189 --> 01:38:45.829
comes in and goes, who died? And so anyway, we

01:38:45.829 --> 01:38:47.470
asked them all to come over and sit down with

01:38:47.470 --> 01:38:51.789
us. And we told them that their father. had passed

01:38:51.789 --> 01:38:55.569
away. And I can just remember one of them taking

01:38:55.569 --> 01:38:58.890
off like a shot in the other direction into his

01:38:58.890 --> 01:39:02.609
bedroom, slamming the door, you know, all of

01:39:02.609 --> 01:39:11.590
their reactions were so unique. And it was absolutely

01:39:11.590 --> 01:39:16.090
gut -wrenching. Probably one of the hardest conversations

01:39:16.090 --> 01:39:19.600
I've had to have. And so we sat with the boys

01:39:19.600 --> 01:39:21.579
for as long as we could and then, you know, went

01:39:21.579 --> 01:39:26.159
home. And the next day we drove up to Owen Sound

01:39:26.159 --> 01:39:31.039
where he was based at the time and because we

01:39:31.039 --> 01:39:32.800
needed to get his clothes and things for the

01:39:32.800 --> 01:39:36.039
funeral home. And so started to gather those

01:39:36.039 --> 01:39:39.199
things up. And a lot of his buddies were already

01:39:39.199 --> 01:39:42.220
at the house. They had cleaned up most things

01:39:42.220 --> 01:39:47.060
so that we didn't see any of that. And, you know,

01:39:47.060 --> 01:39:49.140
started to pull some things together for us that

01:39:49.140 --> 01:39:51.420
they knew that we would need and started pulling

01:39:51.420 --> 01:39:53.560
some things together for his kids, hat badges

01:39:53.560 --> 01:39:56.840
and cat badges and, you know, things like that,

01:39:56.920 --> 01:39:59.899
so that they could make sure that they had enough

01:39:59.899 --> 01:40:02.859
for all four of them and things of that nature.

01:40:03.659 --> 01:40:06.180
And I can remember sitting in his house and just

01:40:06.180 --> 01:40:12.399
sitting there and having this like, really heavy

01:40:12.399 --> 01:40:16.859
feeling. That was so much heavier in that particular

01:40:16.859 --> 01:40:20.180
space than it had been sort of leading up to

01:40:20.180 --> 01:40:25.220
it. And, you know, we're all sort of bickering

01:40:25.220 --> 01:40:28.760
at each other and nobody's really knows what

01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:31.039
they want to do. But everybody knows they want

01:40:31.039 --> 01:40:33.199
to do something and nobody can figure out what

01:40:33.199 --> 01:40:36.079
it what it's going to be. And it was one of the

01:40:36.079 --> 01:40:39.039
few times where. You know, everybody was sort

01:40:39.039 --> 01:40:41.260
of bumping heads a little bit in my family. And,

01:40:41.300 --> 01:40:43.319
you know, usually there's one or two, but there's

01:40:43.319 --> 01:40:46.479
there's never like everybody's sort of, you know,

01:40:46.479 --> 01:40:50.539
in this moment. And finally, we all kind of sat

01:40:50.539 --> 01:40:52.560
down and called each other on our shit. And,

01:40:52.760 --> 01:40:54.380
you know, and it was like, no, like, we need

01:40:54.380 --> 01:40:56.460
to stick together through this. Like, that's

01:40:56.460 --> 01:40:58.479
the only way that we're going to survive this

01:40:58.479 --> 01:41:03.260
in any sort of way. And so we did. And, you know,

01:41:03.279 --> 01:41:07.899
I went with my parents and his fiance. um, to

01:41:07.899 --> 01:41:10.039
the funeral home and we made the arrangements.

01:41:10.220 --> 01:41:13.180
And finally a day later, the military showed

01:41:13.180 --> 01:41:14.859
up and was like, so we're going to start making

01:41:14.859 --> 01:41:16.460
the arrangements. And we're like, you're too

01:41:16.460 --> 01:41:22.739
late. We're done. Like Saturday. And, uh, and

01:41:22.739 --> 01:41:25.619
I couldn't believe it because they come in, they

01:41:25.619 --> 01:41:27.300
infiltrate your house. There's like five of them.

01:41:27.899 --> 01:41:31.119
And, um, you've got the Padre and then you've

01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:34.029
got the designated assistant, which is the. like

01:41:34.029 --> 01:41:38.689
civilian conduit, basically, for everything death

01:41:38.689 --> 01:41:42.670
related. And, you know, an RSM and somebody else,

01:41:42.729 --> 01:41:45.550
whatever, all come in, they sit at your kitchen

01:41:45.550 --> 01:41:47.489
table with you, they start to talk through the

01:41:47.489 --> 01:41:50.649
process. And then they're like, Oh, like, you've

01:41:50.649 --> 01:41:52.149
already done everything. And we're like, Yep.

01:41:52.210 --> 01:41:54.590
And they're like, Okay. And so then they take

01:41:54.590 --> 01:41:57.449
a look at the obituary that I did. And they're

01:41:57.449 --> 01:42:00.270
like, Oh, you're gonna have to change this wording.

01:42:00.310 --> 01:42:02.819
It's not technically correct. It's like technically

01:42:02.819 --> 01:42:07.300
correct to who? They're like, well, this, you

01:42:07.300 --> 01:42:09.619
know, this means something different in the military.

01:42:09.640 --> 01:42:12.880
And I was like, but it's mostly civilians who

01:42:12.880 --> 01:42:16.840
are going to read this. And anyway, they changed

01:42:16.840 --> 01:42:20.420
the obituary. I couldn't believe it. And to suit

01:42:20.420 --> 01:42:23.699
the like military proper wording, which to some

01:42:23.699 --> 01:42:27.399
degree I get now, but also like in that very,

01:42:27.479 --> 01:42:31.989
very dark hour, like. really was it that important

01:42:31.989 --> 01:42:35.569
you couldn't just let that one go today could

01:42:35.569 --> 01:42:38.810
you like especially since i'm sorry but i don't

01:42:38.810 --> 01:42:40.949
know what happened at your guys's end but you

01:42:40.949 --> 01:42:43.770
screwed this all up to begin with you're two

01:42:43.770 --> 01:42:46.409
days late and a dollar short guys like i don't

01:42:46.409 --> 01:42:50.930
know what to tell you and um so anyway later

01:42:50.930 --> 01:42:53.369
grew to like understand their roles a little

01:42:53.369 --> 01:42:55.050
bit better relaxed a little bit but there was

01:42:55.050 --> 01:42:57.590
a lot of anger in those first couple days and

01:42:57.590 --> 01:43:03.279
um You know, and we got through the visitation.

01:43:03.819 --> 01:43:06.300
And for me, it was one of those things where

01:43:06.300 --> 01:43:08.819
as you're going through it, you know, you're

01:43:08.819 --> 01:43:11.760
standing there. It's like most, you know, visitation

01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:13.960
receiving lines. You're kind of numb. You're

01:43:13.960 --> 01:43:16.720
just shaking hands. You know, I did it with my

01:43:16.720 --> 01:43:21.000
grandparents and whatever. But then certain faces

01:43:21.000 --> 01:43:24.119
would, you know, obviously bring up more challenges.

01:43:24.989 --> 01:43:27.750
For us, the issue was we didn't recognize a lot

01:43:27.750 --> 01:43:29.930
of the faces because we didn't know who John

01:43:29.930 --> 01:43:32.369
worked with. And he really kept that piece of

01:43:32.369 --> 01:43:37.550
himself very quiet and, you know, really separated

01:43:37.550 --> 01:43:40.550
the two things. So this was home life and this

01:43:40.550 --> 01:43:42.630
was military life and never shall the two meet.

01:43:44.750 --> 01:43:46.550
You know, I laugh because some of the guys even

01:43:46.550 --> 01:43:48.149
today are like, oh, we didn't even know John

01:43:48.149 --> 01:43:56.710
had a sister. Thanks. And but, you know, all

01:43:56.710 --> 01:44:00.789
of a sudden these guys show up and and they're

01:44:00.789 --> 01:44:02.750
shaking hands with my brother who was just before

01:44:02.750 --> 01:44:06.130
me and receiving line, my youngest brother. And.

01:44:07.020 --> 01:44:08.520
And they're like, oh, yeah, we're, you know,

01:44:08.539 --> 01:44:11.659
so -and -so and whatever. And, you know, we work

01:44:11.659 --> 01:44:15.659
out in Alberta, but we worked with John in the

01:44:15.659 --> 01:44:18.380
military and now we're in wind energy and whatever

01:44:18.380 --> 01:44:22.500
else. And I was like, excuse me? And they're

01:44:22.500 --> 01:44:24.060
like, oh, yeah, like we work in Alberta. And

01:44:24.060 --> 01:44:26.619
I was like, but you live here? And they're like,

01:44:26.720 --> 01:44:31.180
no. And I was like, okay, so you hopped a flight

01:44:31.180 --> 01:44:35.500
from Alberta last minute to come to a 30 -minute

01:44:35.500 --> 01:44:37.680
visitation? Because it was COVID. So you had

01:44:37.680 --> 01:44:42.039
30 minute slots. And they were like, yeah. And

01:44:42.039 --> 01:44:47.319
I was like, okay. Like, I was like, well, you're

01:44:47.319 --> 01:44:48.800
here. So you might as well stay for the funeral

01:44:48.800 --> 01:44:50.779
tomorrow. And they're like, oh, no, no, like,

01:44:50.880 --> 01:44:53.819
we can't. You know, we got a flight at four o

01:44:53.819 --> 01:44:55.779
'clock. So we'll never make it if you know, if

01:44:55.779 --> 01:44:58.300
we come for the funeral. And because we didn't

01:44:58.300 --> 01:45:00.000
have the funeral posted, because we had number

01:45:00.000 --> 01:45:01.960
restrictions. So nobody knew when the funeral

01:45:01.960 --> 01:45:07.119
was. And so anyway. I'm giving the eulogy the

01:45:07.119 --> 01:45:10.420
next day. And as I start to give the eulogy,

01:45:10.560 --> 01:45:14.899
these three guys walk in. So they had changed

01:45:14.899 --> 01:45:19.319
their flights back to Alberta in order to be

01:45:19.319 --> 01:45:22.460
there for the funeral. And so, of course, we

01:45:22.460 --> 01:45:24.640
had gotten to our max on numbers in the funeral

01:45:24.640 --> 01:45:28.159
home. And my youngest nephew and I walk out first

01:45:28.159 --> 01:45:33.500
because he was carrying the cap and the medals.

01:45:34.359 --> 01:45:38.279
That my brother had and out to start the funeral

01:45:38.279 --> 01:45:41.479
procession. And as I got outside, there was all

01:45:41.479 --> 01:45:47.100
of these reserve individuals from Owen Sound

01:45:47.100 --> 01:45:50.560
who had come down and were standing outside waiting

01:45:50.560 --> 01:45:54.319
to go to the cemetery. And I was just like, what?

01:45:55.680 --> 01:45:58.699
So we went to the cemetery and then they do this

01:45:58.699 --> 01:46:01.760
thing at the cemetery where in order of rank,

01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:05.140
they salute. before they leave the gravesite.

01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:07.720
There were so many of them. So we stood there

01:46:07.720 --> 01:46:09.579
and watched that for a few minutes in the warmth

01:46:09.579 --> 01:46:14.039
of the car and before we went over for the luncheon.

01:46:14.079 --> 01:46:16.720
But, you know, it was one of those things where

01:46:16.720 --> 01:46:19.779
as you're going through it and you're starting

01:46:19.779 --> 01:46:22.859
to meet all of these people that you didn't know

01:46:22.859 --> 01:46:26.979
even existed a week earlier and having these

01:46:26.979 --> 01:46:29.739
conversations with them about John and about...

01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:32.539
the influence that he had on his, on their life

01:46:32.539 --> 01:46:35.279
and about, you know, how his death was impacting

01:46:35.279 --> 01:46:39.979
them and things like that. You really started

01:46:39.979 --> 01:46:45.800
to understand the dynamic and the brother and

01:46:45.800 --> 01:46:48.939
sisterhood that is the military that is so unique

01:46:48.939 --> 01:46:54.680
to, you know, military police fire. Like we don't,

01:46:54.680 --> 01:46:57.680
you know, I don't get. I sure I'll go for a beer

01:46:57.680 --> 01:46:59.939
with the people that I work with. But, you know,

01:46:59.939 --> 01:47:02.819
I'm not and I would be sad if they passed away.

01:47:02.920 --> 01:47:06.579
But it's not going to have the same impact to

01:47:06.579 --> 01:47:10.159
me as a civilian that it would that it seems

01:47:10.159 --> 01:47:15.479
to have in these other scenarios. And so as I

01:47:15.479 --> 01:47:20.340
was going through, you know, post John dying,

01:47:20.479 --> 01:47:26.590
I. Was just looking for some way to stay connected

01:47:26.590 --> 01:47:33.090
with him. And because I couldn't now connect

01:47:33.090 --> 01:47:37.109
with him as a family member anymore because he

01:47:37.109 --> 01:47:39.829
wasn't there to sort of run things past and,

01:47:39.890 --> 01:47:43.909
you know, whatever. I got drawn to this side

01:47:43.909 --> 01:47:47.329
of him that I never. got to really experience,

01:47:47.369 --> 01:47:50.949
which was the military side. And so to this day,

01:47:50.989 --> 01:47:53.890
I stay in touch with some of his best friends

01:47:53.890 --> 01:47:57.989
from the military. I, you know, we randomly text

01:47:57.989 --> 01:48:00.489
each other, or, you know, we'll meet up for coffee

01:48:00.489 --> 01:48:08.579
or do whatever. And, but Because of that, I started

01:48:08.579 --> 01:48:10.800
following certain people on the Internet, and

01:48:10.800 --> 01:48:12.779
then that led me to following other people on

01:48:12.779 --> 01:48:14.800
the Internet. And one of the groups that I started

01:48:14.800 --> 01:48:19.319
following was All OK out of Ottawa. So Matt Russell

01:48:19.319 --> 01:48:25.779
is our former RCR now. He just retired. And him

01:48:25.779 --> 01:48:30.199
and his wife, Fadi, started this awareness brand,

01:48:30.359 --> 01:48:36.409
really. In February, they've historically done

01:48:36.409 --> 01:48:41.590
a 22 push up challenge on February 22. And so

01:48:41.590 --> 01:48:45.029
I found out about this through somebody and was

01:48:45.029 --> 01:48:48.649
like, Oh, okay, well, I can't do 22 push ups,

01:48:48.670 --> 01:48:51.369
but I'm going to try to do 22 push ups. And john

01:48:51.369 --> 01:48:54.329
died on the 22nd. So 22 is really an important

01:48:54.329 --> 01:48:58.489
number for me. And then I learned why it's 22

01:48:58.489 --> 01:49:01.470
push ups. And that's because the number of military

01:49:02.239 --> 01:49:04.520
who are presumed to die by suicide on a daily

01:49:04.520 --> 01:49:06.159
basis. Although we're, we're pretty sure the

01:49:06.159 --> 01:49:08.739
number is significantly higher than this now

01:49:08.739 --> 01:49:13.560
in the U S is 22 a day. And, um, so I was like,

01:49:13.619 --> 01:49:16.800
okay, now I know this plus 22 is important because

01:49:16.800 --> 01:49:19.220
of John. And, you know, this was going to be

01:49:19.220 --> 01:49:23.460
the 15 month, you know, anniversary of, or Memorial

01:49:23.460 --> 01:49:27.140
day or whatever. And, uh, so I was like, this

01:49:27.140 --> 01:49:30.180
is what I'm going to do. I knew 22 pushups for

01:49:30.180 --> 01:49:35.420
22 days. Um, and I'm going to put a song and

01:49:35.420 --> 01:49:40.939
a story to every single day. So I can't do 22

01:49:40.939 --> 01:49:45.199
pushups. And if anybody can find them on my personal

01:49:45.199 --> 01:49:51.130
Instagram, they are bad. They are very bad. But

01:49:51.130 --> 01:49:54.430
for 22 days, I followed through with this plan.

01:49:54.609 --> 01:49:57.069
And, you know, I started having people follow

01:49:57.069 --> 01:50:00.829
me and reach out to me, make sure that I was

01:50:00.829 --> 01:50:04.789
okay. And then I had this guy who's former military

01:50:04.789 --> 01:50:10.369
and police on the East Coast start taking the

01:50:10.369 --> 01:50:13.109
same song that I chose and doing his push -ups

01:50:13.109 --> 01:50:19.550
to that song also. And so for 22 days, I really...

01:50:20.260 --> 01:50:23.079
started to feel a connection in this community

01:50:23.079 --> 01:50:26.960
of, you know, first responders and veterans who

01:50:26.960 --> 01:50:30.600
are all trying to spread the same message about

01:50:30.600 --> 01:50:36.159
mental wellness. And I was like, Oh, okay. And

01:50:36.159 --> 01:50:37.979
then I started meeting up with some of them.

01:50:38.000 --> 01:50:39.560
Cause you know, that's super safe to do meet

01:50:39.560 --> 01:50:41.579
up with people that you meet on the internet,

01:50:41.600 --> 01:50:43.060
but you know, they're all cops and firefighters,

01:50:43.199 --> 01:50:49.529
so it's gotta be fine. That's right. And. That's

01:50:49.529 --> 01:50:53.069
when I got the idea that, you know, my parents

01:50:53.069 --> 01:50:56.810
and I should do something bigger. That's what

01:50:56.810 --> 01:50:59.630
John would have done. He would have helped people.

01:51:00.649 --> 01:51:04.770
And so how could we do the same thing? And so

01:51:04.770 --> 01:51:09.909
in May of 2023, we officially launched Operation

01:51:09.909 --> 01:51:13.829
Talk to Me Johnny. So Talk to Me Johnny comes

01:51:13.829 --> 01:51:19.659
from a... article that was written by a gentleman

01:51:19.659 --> 01:51:24.359
by the name of Jayla Joy, who worked with John,

01:51:24.500 --> 01:51:26.239
actually served with him up here in the Canadian

01:51:26.239 --> 01:51:28.699
military. But he writes for the Havoc Journal

01:51:28.699 --> 01:51:34.300
in the US. And he wrote a story in January of

01:51:34.300 --> 01:51:40.239
2022 about John's death. And, you know, how he

01:51:40.239 --> 01:51:43.500
sort of felt about it and whatever. And it was

01:51:43.500 --> 01:51:46.140
extremely impactful to me that somebody would

01:51:46.140 --> 01:51:49.699
do this. And the title of the article is Talk

01:51:49.699 --> 01:51:51.960
to Me, Johnny, which is a Rambo reference for

01:51:51.960 --> 01:51:55.319
most people catch that. But for those who don't

01:51:55.319 --> 01:52:02.579
know, it's a Rambo reference. And so it seemed

01:52:02.579 --> 01:52:08.600
perfect for the name of the organization. So

01:52:08.600 --> 01:52:11.100
we started Operation Talk to Me Johnny in November

01:52:11.100 --> 01:52:14.439
of 2023, which would have been his two -year

01:52:14.439 --> 01:52:19.100
memorial. We did a ruck march, and it was really

01:52:19.100 --> 01:52:21.819
important that this first event that we did really

01:52:21.819 --> 01:52:27.479
represented John. And so we rucked from the Sarnia

01:52:27.479 --> 01:52:32.119
Armouries here in Ontario to the Wyoming Ontario

01:52:32.119 --> 01:52:35.479
Cemetery. With the Sarnia armories being the

01:52:35.479 --> 01:52:39.380
place that John wrote his entrance exams for

01:52:39.380 --> 01:52:42.619
the military and the cemetery being where he's

01:52:42.619 --> 01:52:46.960
buried. So a sort of. nod to how his career started

01:52:46.960 --> 01:52:50.500
and how it ended. And we were so fortunate to

01:52:50.500 --> 01:52:52.920
have a ton of family support and some really

01:52:52.920 --> 01:52:56.340
good community support. And we were able to get

01:52:56.340 --> 01:52:59.520
78 people to walk the full 24 and a half kilometers

01:52:59.520 --> 01:53:02.560
with us. We had a few more join us at the last

01:53:02.560 --> 01:53:08.350
stop and do about five or six with us. We raised

01:53:08.350 --> 01:53:12.130
$15 ,000 for a couple of partners, veterans and

01:53:12.130 --> 01:53:14.850
everyday heroes up here who help get service

01:53:14.850 --> 01:53:18.590
dogs for veterans and first responders. And another

01:53:18.590 --> 01:53:22.109
charitable organization in Manitoba called Forging

01:53:22.109 --> 01:53:25.189
Ahead, who does metal work as like an artistic

01:53:25.189 --> 01:53:31.289
outlet for PTSD. So the overwhelming support

01:53:31.289 --> 01:53:35.529
was, okay, like, yes, we need to do this. We

01:53:35.529 --> 01:53:39.250
need to formalize this. And so we did we formalized

01:53:39.250 --> 01:53:43.390
it into a nonprofit organization that year and

01:53:43.390 --> 01:53:48.689
have since started doing community family friendly

01:53:48.689 --> 01:53:51.670
events. So last year was our first year we're

01:53:51.670 --> 01:53:56.949
planning for May of this year, but it's a sort

01:53:56.949 --> 01:54:00.829
of like a family fun day where you can come out

01:54:00.829 --> 01:54:04.779
there's You know, all the first responders are

01:54:04.779 --> 01:54:06.640
there. Hopefully I can get the military there

01:54:06.640 --> 01:54:12.420
this year. And so you can interact with all of

01:54:12.420 --> 01:54:15.220
these individuals, well in their uniforms, but

01:54:15.220 --> 01:54:20.289
really in this like fun setting. Hoping to bring

01:54:20.289 --> 01:54:22.789
some of the humanity of these individuals to

01:54:22.789 --> 01:54:26.010
the day. We're hoping to have a wellness tent

01:54:26.010 --> 01:54:28.329
this year where you can do yoga and meditation

01:54:28.329 --> 01:54:31.630
and learn to do some of these things that are

01:54:31.630 --> 01:54:35.670
good coping skills. And then we've got a lot

01:54:35.670 --> 01:54:39.170
of organizations that come out either that are

01:54:39.170 --> 01:54:42.250
veteran or first responder businesses or that

01:54:42.250 --> 01:54:44.109
support veteran or first responder businesses

01:54:44.109 --> 01:54:46.670
and mental wellness that come out. And so we've

01:54:46.670 --> 01:54:48.829
got a bunch of vendors out and then, you know.

01:54:49.260 --> 01:54:52.380
Nothing's complete without a bouncy castle and,

01:54:52.380 --> 01:54:56.060
you know, a giant slide and things like that.

01:54:56.699 --> 01:55:00.720
And then we cap the afternoon off with an obstacle

01:55:00.720 --> 01:55:05.100
course. And so this is sort of my nod to the

01:55:05.100 --> 01:55:09.199
dark humor of all of, you know, first responder

01:55:09.199 --> 01:55:13.609
and veteran organizations. And so. There is a

01:55:13.609 --> 01:55:16.789
physical piece and then a piece that sort of

01:55:16.789 --> 01:55:21.149
makes fun of each of the groups. So the military

01:55:21.149 --> 01:55:25.069
person in this obstacle course has to go under

01:55:25.069 --> 01:55:28.310
like a netting and do like an army crawl. And

01:55:28.310 --> 01:55:30.369
then they have to jump up, run to a hula hoop

01:55:30.369 --> 01:55:36.199
and shine their shoes. You know, the cop has

01:55:36.199 --> 01:55:41.100
to write a ticket and eat a donut. The firefighter

01:55:41.100 --> 01:55:44.500
has to run with a fire hose, which we were grateful

01:55:44.500 --> 01:55:49.640
to have a couple donated to us. And then, you

01:55:49.640 --> 01:55:51.479
know, strike a pose for the firefighter calendar,

01:55:51.739 --> 01:55:55.460
things like that. Right. So it's all meant to

01:55:55.460 --> 01:55:58.869
be in fun, but keep it. you know, physical in

01:55:58.869 --> 01:56:01.550
some sort of challenge. And then they run about

01:56:01.550 --> 01:56:04.529
a quarter of a mile or a half mile, somewhere

01:56:04.529 --> 01:56:07.390
in between there. But when you get across the

01:56:07.390 --> 01:56:11.430
line, you actually have to do like jumping jacks

01:56:11.430 --> 01:56:13.789
until everybody's across the line. So there's

01:56:13.789 --> 01:56:16.829
that element of no one being left behind, even

01:56:16.829 --> 01:56:19.010
though there can still be sort of a front runner.

01:56:20.229 --> 01:56:22.869
And so, of course, the team with all four people

01:56:22.869 --> 01:56:26.409
across the line first. get a prize and and all

01:56:26.409 --> 01:56:29.909
of that but um we had a few of the uh officers

01:56:29.909 --> 01:56:32.210
participate with us last year and it was a lot

01:56:32.210 --> 01:56:35.010
of fun so i'm really looking forward to seeing

01:56:35.010 --> 01:56:38.729
what we can do with that and the reason we wanted

01:56:38.729 --> 01:56:44.170
it to be community oriented after the first event

01:56:44.170 --> 01:56:48.510
was because of john suns and really making sure

01:56:48.510 --> 01:56:51.899
that you know, we're getting kids involved as

01:56:51.899 --> 01:56:55.600
early as possible in the mental wellness conversation,

01:56:55.819 --> 01:56:59.899
but not at a level where, you know, you're sitting

01:56:59.899 --> 01:57:02.159
down with them at the table and having this really

01:57:02.159 --> 01:57:04.699
heavy conversation about mental wellness. Like,

01:57:04.699 --> 01:57:08.970
let's start making it. a part of a three -year

01:57:08.970 --> 01:57:11.909
-old's vocabulary because they had a really fun

01:57:11.909 --> 01:57:15.789
day at this event one time um and so how do you

01:57:15.789 --> 01:57:18.250
do that and you know as i said to you i don't

01:57:18.250 --> 01:57:20.109
know if we can break the stigma in my lifetime

01:57:20.109 --> 01:57:24.510
um i hope so but i also know how slowly things

01:57:24.510 --> 01:57:29.189
like that can move um and so i do have high hopes

01:57:29.189 --> 01:57:31.470
that we can do it in my nephew's lifetime and

01:57:31.470 --> 01:57:35.819
i think or i hope that events like um the one

01:57:35.819 --> 01:57:39.699
that we plan uh on may 30th of this year we'll

01:57:39.699 --> 01:57:42.640
start to do that well it sounds amazing it really

01:57:42.640 --> 01:57:45.140
does and it's it's really interesting seeing

01:57:45.140 --> 01:57:47.560
over and over again these grief stories how they

01:57:47.560 --> 01:57:50.380
do spawn i'm gonna do something about it and

01:57:50.380 --> 01:57:53.479
i've always said the way that we honor the people

01:57:53.479 --> 01:57:55.460
that we lose because no one's invented a time

01:57:55.460 --> 01:57:58.500
machine yet to go save their life is we fight

01:57:58.500 --> 01:58:00.300
to fix whatever the thing was that took them

01:58:00.300 --> 01:58:06.040
from us it's that simple so i love you know the

01:58:06.040 --> 01:58:09.500
healing element of trying to address the issue

01:58:09.500 --> 01:58:13.560
and trying to do something in the memory of someone

01:58:13.560 --> 01:58:15.199
that we've lost. And I think this is amazing.

01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:18.600
For people listening, where can they find Operation

01:58:18.600 --> 01:58:22.300
Talk To Me Johnny online? Yeah, absolutely. So

01:58:22.300 --> 01:58:25.699
we're on most social medias. I'm not on TikTok

01:58:25.699 --> 01:58:27.380
yet because I don't understand that one as well.

01:58:27.939 --> 01:58:31.109
But, you know, I'm older. I grew up in the 80s,

01:58:31.109 --> 01:58:35.130
so Facebook, of course. We're on Instagram. And

01:58:35.130 --> 01:58:40.949
then you can go to our website, opt2mj .com,

01:58:41.010 --> 01:58:44.310
and check us out there and stay in touch with

01:58:44.310 --> 01:58:47.130
some of the things that we're doing. And, of

01:58:47.130 --> 01:58:54.390
course, email optalk2mejohnny at gmail .com.

01:58:54.829 --> 01:58:56.590
Brilliant. Are there any other places that people

01:58:56.590 --> 01:59:00.529
want to reach out to you specifically? I'm always

01:59:00.529 --> 01:59:03.689
happy to get a text. And so, you know, they're

01:59:03.689 --> 01:59:08.069
welcome to reach out by email or Facebook Messenger.

01:59:08.270 --> 01:59:12.750
And, you know, always happy to share, collaborate

01:59:12.750 --> 01:59:15.229
with anybody in whatever way is going to support

01:59:15.229 --> 01:59:18.010
the mission. Beautiful. Well, Lisa, I want to

01:59:18.010 --> 01:59:20.250
thank you so much. It's been such an amazing

01:59:20.250 --> 01:59:22.829
conversation. You know, I've always said, I know

01:59:22.829 --> 01:59:25.890
that these conversations kind of rip the bandaid

01:59:25.890 --> 01:59:28.069
off and kind of reopen the wound for a moment.

01:59:28.109 --> 01:59:30.109
But I know there are so many people listening

01:59:30.109 --> 01:59:32.050
that this is going to resonate with that it will

01:59:32.050 --> 01:59:35.069
save lives. There's no question. So I want to

01:59:35.069 --> 01:59:37.090
thank you so much for being so generous with

01:59:37.090 --> 01:59:38.829
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

01:59:38.829 --> 01:59:41.829
podcast today. Oh, thanks for having me. It's

01:59:41.829 --> 01:59:42.510
been a great conversation.