This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the
first staffing software to be truly firefighter
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as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical
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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering, and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome back
onto the show veteran law enforcement officer,
amputee, and Paralympian fencer, Byron Branch.
Now, if you missed our first conversation, it
was episode 503. In this second interview, we
discuss a host of topics. from reflecting back
on the lessons that should have been learned
during the pandemic, the actions of ICE through
law enforcement's eyes, the opioid epidemic,
homelessness, first responder fitness, marksmanship
in policing, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment, go to
whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I welcome back onto
the show, Byron. Enjoy. Well, Byron, I want to
start by saying welcome back to the Behind the
Shield podcast. Thanks. Glad to be here. The
last time we spoke was episode 503. And for everyone
who hasn't heard your episode, I highly recommend
it now. And that was as we were emerging from
the pandemic. So I think it was mid -2021 was
when we recorded. So let's start with that there,
because I think it's always a really important
conversation. Wherever people kind of stood in
the whole COVID thing, I don't think anyone would
argue that when we came out, No one really had
learned any lessons. And what I mean that is
we understood that the health of the individual
was one of the most important factors for surviving
it. And then we also had a lot of discuss as
far as the isolation and keeping people from
each other and the impact on the mental health
of that. So without loading the question, when
you reflect back now on that whole period, whether
it was, you know, at home or when you were in
uniform. What are some of the things that we
should be talking about today to make sure it
doesn't happen again? I think one of the one
of the big things that I had witnessed is people
will always say, oh, I would never do this or
I would never do that. And then when that situation
arises, you find they do exactly what they said
they would never do. Right. Oh, there's no way
that the government can tell me to do X, Y and
Z. I'm not doing that. But they're the first
in line. uh to obey everything that they're told
first in line to get whatever vaccines they were
told to get and they just they followed lock
and step um you know and then what did we get
as a as a result of that we don't really know
because it was like one second it was there we
were locked down in our houses couldn't do anything
and the next second it was over and we're like
okay do we go back to everything is normal do
should we still wear masks um can i go visit
people in hospitals or retirement home now because
it did it just vanish you know overnight And
now it's not a problem anymore. I remember looking
at some of the information that was coming out
and I noticed during the height of COVID, there
were no no treatments for the flu or any other
colds or anything like that. It pretty much it
absorbed everything. within COVID, it basically
was like a catch -all, you know, kind of like
in police work, disorderly conduct. I don't know
what to slap a person with. Disorderly conduct
covers everything. So COVID was like the big
thing. That's what covered all the illnesses
that were out. And then come 2021, boom, everything
had stopped. It had a huge impact on us as far
as like competition went, because I remember
sitting in 2020 in February, I was sitting at
the Olympic Training Center. And I get a message
from the lady running the team saying, hey, all
these upcoming events are canceled now because
of this mysterious illness that's spreading across
the globe. So this event in Brazil is going to
be canceled. And I was like, well, that's strange.
And then a week after that, boom, COVID was a
thing. And next thing I know, everybody was inside.
People were racing to get toilet paper. You remember
how crazy it was. It was insane. Yeah. And then
now it's over. You know, here we are. And the
question that I ask myself is because you see
in places like California where they're like,
oh, we got to mask up again and do that. The
thing that I am curious about is if the government
or any type of agency like the CDC comes out
and says, oh, we've got this 2 .0 version. Are
we going to do the same thing over again? Are
we going to repeat that same behavior? Are people
going to be like, you know what? It doesn't make
any sense to do it. I think where. i stood the
whole time was in the middle you know and yes
it is a real virus now whether it came from an
american or chinese lab or whether it was you
know the beginning of the rapture or whatever
it is that you believed it was a real thing and
people that worked in first responder and you
know medical um professions there were hot spots
where yeah they were stacking bodies no no question
but at the same time it was also clearly basically
killing people who had pre -existing conditions,
whether those are obvious, like obesity and chain
smoking, or whether it was maybe a chink in the
armor that some people didn't realize were there.
So seemingly healthy people were dying as well.
Some, they were an anomaly, but they were. And
so the conversation in the middle was just, well,
if we make people healthier, whatever you call
the next virus, it's going to be safer for the
community if we have a healthy nation. And that
was the conversation that was disregarded completely.
And so we come out of this and there is no putting
real food back in schools, you know, reinforcing
PE programs, pedestrianizing downtown, supporting,
you know, our Olympians and Paralympians and,
you know, all these things that would make a
healthier, happier nation that then would have
a much lower death toll. God forbid the next
virus comes through. So that was the ultimate
disservice is we didn't actually do anything
to make people healthy. I would argue actually
we got less healthy from it at the end. No, and
I mean you see that time and time again because
you go to your average doctor instead of trying
to figure out what your problem is and say, hey,
diet, exercise, and get enough rest. Like that's
the cure for about 99 % of the things that you
have outside of things that you can't control.
But within those things you can control, that
will improve your health. uh your mobility your
lifestyle overall but it's almost never ever
recommended you come in what's your ailment oh
you've got a b and c here's this fantastic pill
we got for that you know but it doesn't ever
solve the underlying problem um and you you see
like all kinds of uh complications with like
we can use uh um like ozempic for example or
any type of like dietary supplement complete
it was made for one thing then people started
using it uh got reckless with it and now we're
starting to see ramifications complications from
that when really you could have just told the
individual hey exercise eat right get plenty
of rest do it consistently and you'll find that
that is going to be the most beneficial for you
in the long in the long run because you'll get
used to it just like people who hey they wake
up they get their coffee they go to work there's
no thought process about getting that coffee
but it always fitted in It's no different with
that. Hello, wife. Sorry, my wife just walked
in. You're fine. Yeah, but I think that's that
even with the Zempic conversation, I had a Johan
Harion who wrote a whole book on basically that.
And it was fascinating. When you look at more
extreme examples, like my wife lost her best
friend and I lost one of my fire academy friends
to gastric bypass complications. And arguably,
neither of them actually were that obese. They
were maybe on the, you know, clinically obese
scale, but at the very, very bottom level, if
anything, definitely overweight. But, you know,
and so they both have these surgeries and then
they both have deadly complications, you know,
a few years later. So I think that, you know,
Zempik, if you are in a place where your obesity
is really becoming dangerous to your health,
I think absolutely it's a safer option. But that
has to be used with like any drug. All right.
What is the exit strategy? You know, what are
you going to be doing? Lifestyle changes, like
you said, so that we can wean you off that drug,
whether it's hypertension, whether it's a Zempik,
whether it's, you know, if you're cholesterol,
whatever it is, so that you don't need this drug
anymore. But that's not the American model. Your
doctor basically is prescribing like you're going
to be on this for the rest of your life. And
that's a disservice we do with these meds. Well,
it needs to be done in tandem. You have to be
like, hey, we'll put you on this. But in order
for it to work and work well, you have to do
corresponding diet, exercise, rest. That has
to be done in tandem with it. So then once we
do wean you off of it, you'll be so used to that
new lifestyle that it kind of just takes care
of itself. I think people either have not experienced...
what it, what it can feel like to go from being
in, uh, the overweight out of shape or anything
like that to getting yourself in shape and then
realizing how much better they feel mentally,
physically. Um, because if that is remedied by
a simple medication and that work is missing,
that got you to that final end point. Um, I think
they, because they missed that there's a gap,
there's a disconnect there. Um, It makes it really,
really hard to stay consistent because as soon
as you stop taking that pill or you change that
lifestyle, that weight comes back on and then
you're just bouncing back and forth, back and
forth. Whereas if we would just start from the
beginning, hey, we understand that you gained
a lot of weight during this period and we're
going to try and help you adjust and get that
weight off and we're going to do it by doing
X, Y, and Z and not just skipping straight to.
Hey, here's this medication. Just take this.
This will solve all your problems. And really
all it does, what's it doing? Blocking receptors.
You're not eating, which is making you unhealthy
to begin with because your body is basically
starving itself. And you can eat and lose weight
as opposed to just not eating and starving and
then coming off of it. And then you just explode
after that or gain all the weight back, which
is what people tend to have happen to them. I'm
no health expert. This is just what I've seen
or what I've read. Well, that's the irony. It
isn't that complicated. Is it hard? Yes, especially
when you're way back on the back foot, if you're
deconditioned or overweight or, you know, smoker
or whatever it is, there's definitely a lot of
challenges to overcome. But fundamentally, principally,
you know, if you have a plate full of all different
colors of which, you know, there's no processed,
super refined carbs and you eat that two, three
times a day and you move a lot, that's it. It's
so funny when people come out with all these
books on fitness and exercise. The principles
are pretty damn simple. Do what we did up until
about 100 years ago, minus the Industrial Revolution
and some of these things that were detrimental.
Don't put kids up chimneys. That's the answer
to it. It's not that complicated. But if you
find your lifestyle is so far from how we used
to be, then that's the goal. Get back to what
your great -grandparents did. It's that simple.
Yeah. That's what I say. it's the the easiest
hardest thing to do you know when you think about
it if i say hey all you have to do is this this
and this people like oh that's really simple
and then they try to implement it and like oh
this is really difficult but it's really not
you just have to wrap your mind around okay i
get up i i drink like you know eight ounces of
water and then i go exercise and then i eat like
simple carbs and then bam a couple hours later
i'll have lunch but then people let You know,
life gets in the way and I get that all kids
sick. Well, I can't do this or so on and so on.
You really have to you got to prioritize it.
You really need to prioritize yourself and just
be consistent. Consistency is typically the only
thing that's really missing. They know what to
do. They just have a hard time being consistent
in doing it. But if you look at almost everything
else in their life, they're consistent at, you
know, going to work, walking the dog, doing something,
doing something like that. You got to make it
something you want to do. As soon as it's something
you want to do, it's very easy to be consistent.
Absolutely. I think one of the other challenges
is we're one of only two countries that have
drug commercials on television. Us in New Zealand?
Yes, that's right. Yeah. So we are, you know,
so to be kind of compassionate to the masses,
they are brainwashed into ask your doctor about
this quick fix, this pill, this whatever. And
then, you know, you watch the side effects and,
you know, these antidepressants that cause suicidal
ideations. You're like, is this really a good
drug? But yeah, but I mean, this is the thing.
There's one of only two countries that have to
deal with that as well. Mentally, you are being
subjected to propaganda constantly by drug companies.
And the question is really, you know, how are
you going to break yourself out of that loop?
I am not a big fan of seeing those commercials
on there. And I'll be like watching my kids.
My kids like. I do that. I have that. I'm like,
no, you don't understand. There's a reason why
it says it's like, do you blink? Do you breathe
air? Have you stood up today? You might have
X, Y, and Z. Side effects include imminent death,
extreme vomiting, suicidal. There's no reason
to be messing with any of this stuff. And you
see it time and time again. I can't tell you
how many times I'll be sitting here watching
TV with my wife and there'll be one commercial
on with some product I can't pronounce. And then
the show will play and the next commercial will
be the same exact product. It does the same thing,
but with a completely different name. And I'm
like, I feel like if I have an issue and I need
to address it with my doctor, I'll just go address
it with my doctor. It's not like food. I'm not
going to see it and be like, oh, man, I think
I need to go get this. I don't understand it.
I can't get my head wrapped around it or how
the pharmaceutical industry is able to even do
half the stuff that they're doing. But for some
reason. we allow it and people accept it you
know but i remember remember when you were younger
and i don't think you might have been how long
you've been in the states uh 23 years okay oh
no that's even prior to that i remember in like
maybe the late 80s and 90s there were still cigarette
and beer commercials on tv you know yeah we had
them yeah and now now you don't really see them
anymore right no but those were super prevalent
occasionally on the super bowl i'll see like
you know, beer commercials and stuff. Sure. If
I'm watching TV, you don't see any cigarette
commercials. They used to add cool cigarettes,
Virginia slams, Marlboro, Marlboro man, for example,
you know, but then you're like, ah, you know,
maybe we don't need to advertise, but people
still know where to get it if they want it, you
know, if they want to seek it out, but it's not
something that needs to be just like thrown in
your face constantly. Yeah. The Marlboro Man
is a perfect example of changing your mind. He
obviously, as an actor, was like, wow, I got
this gig and I'm promoting cigarettes. And then
years later, he's doing anti -smoking campaign
with a hole in his throat. And kudos for him
having the courage to do that. Yep, exactly.
You used the word side effects by mistake. And
I think that that would actually make millions
in the drug marketing world, where you actually
brag about the side effects as though they're
a positive thing. now yeah so what's that oh
these are the cider flecks all right well then
um you mentioned about uh how easily people were
swayed when this happened i think this is an
interesting thing um you know to break down psychologically
there was the whole if you don't have vaccine
then you're going to be a murderer propaganda
that we were told and our children were told
that too you murdered grandma if you don't get
the the jab and every Every death supposedly
was COVID, as we said. Then ironically, let's
move the pendulum the other side. Now, fast forward
to like 2023, everyone that died, regardless
of underlying conditions, supposedly died from
the vaccine. And now the other extreme, using
the exact same fucking words. So what is it about
all things society in the last 10, 15 or so years?
that have made it so easy to push people all
the way to the extreme left or right, rather
than the kind of common sense, middle, critical
thinking area? Oh, you can answer that in two
words, social media. That's the easiest way to
do it. That is like social media makes... it
makes it so easy to pass around inflammatory
ideas because that's what gets clicks that's
what gets attention um you have to actually really
dig or read through very dense scientific materials
it doesn't have to be scientific if you really
want to find an answer you just have to dig through
materials and do research the the problem that
i've seen over the past since like let's say
2007 when like social media really started taking
off um probably see now is people they read headlines
and their opinions is based on that whatever
the headline says. And the headline could be
completely contradictory to what the actual article
says in it. But the headline is what you read
to get your attention. And then most people kind
of just drift off and they go to their next article.
So if you read an article that says... COVID
responsible for all deaths in 2023. And then
you get down to the fine print. Now, there's
been a mass increase in deaths that resulted
from comorbidities associated with yada, yada,
yada. And COVID was one of the underlying factors.
So you find out, oh, it's a mixture of comorbidities
and COVID that resulted in the deaths. It's not
just COVID. Same with, you know, vaccines where
people are talking about being vaccine injured.
That's, I don't know if you know Jimmy Dore is,
right? For example. Oh, okay. He's just a commentator
slash comedian. um on youtube and he talks about
that because he's in the la area does stuff in
hollywood so he knows a lot of comedians and
other people and he you know he was all on board
about the uh the vaccine and everything gets
it ends up getting complications from it and
it's like hey guys we need to slow down let's
take a look at this let's see what's happening
um and then he completely changed you know his
idea and understanding of what you know, the
vaccine contained because of what had happened
to him. But then he said he lost a lot of other
friends because they weren't willing to listen.
They were like, no, this is what we've got to
do. Here's what Newsom says. This is what we've
got to do. This is what we're going to do. And
that's just kind of how people stuck to it. So,
and you'll also see a big difference between
people like where I live in the middle of the,
not even the middle of the country, but in the
Midwest versus the people on the coast, you know,
that are just, they just follow what's said.
they just you know they believe it and that's
that's fine you know if you've got supporting
evidence or you've seen some things happen i've
had uh some of my relatives have people that
they know that died from complications with with
uh covid and that was their whole reason behind
like okay well i want to go ahead and and take
this this vaccination or this shot because i
want to make sure that i'm protecting myself
and maybe anybody around me who might have some
immunodeficiencies or something like that it
was interesting i was talking to my dad who was
a veterinary surgeon for the longest time and
ironically A lot of our best medicine comes from
veterinary medicine, but the human medicine world
is, you know, rarely acknowledges that, you know,
a lot of the pioneering stuff came from the animal
side. And, you know, when it was happening early
on, I was, I was asking him and, you know, it's
interesting getting his take on ivermectin and
some of these other things, because that's basically
a horse wormer, you know, or dog wormer. But
he was talking about, I asked him the other day,
like, what was it about the vaccine? that they
think is creating myocarditis and some of these
things that we're hearing people having seems,
you know, heart focused. And he said, there are
various ways that you can create a vaccine. And
then he mentioned someone else who had got the
much safer way of doing it already pioneered
and was basically snubbed. And there's a thing
called a spike protein. I can't remember exactly
how that works, but by doing it that way, you
do create a much more extreme kind of inflammatory
response than you would by this other way. So
again, it sounds like there would have been much
safer ways of delivering a potential vaccine.
But I'm sure behind the scenes, it was probably
whichever company had the most power and money
was the one that got the vaccine that came to
us. And I had it done, not through any fear of
my own well -being, but I had to travel. And
at that time, it was basically required. Then
I was visiting my 104 -year -old grandmother.
So I'm like, okay, well, I don't believe that
this vaccine is going to kill me either. So I
will take it just to... minimize a chance of
me killing her but uh you know but that being
said have we not traveled i wouldn't have had
it at all because i just didn't believe that
you know if you were a healthy person you were
going to get anything more than a really shitty
flu for a few days which is basically what most
healthy people reported yeah and you know but
that's how that's how they got you let's make
it every aspect of your life and restrict it
unless you're going to do what we say essentially
is what it boiled down to. Oh, you want to go
across state line? You're going to need this.
You want to fly? Oh, you know, you're going to
need this. And then I felt really bad for the
people who had real extremes with it. So my friends
from Australia are visiting like right now. And
I talked to them about the stuff that went on
there. I remember reading an article, a couple
from Australia, they went to Fiji for their honeymoon.
No big deal. Cool. They were there for two weeks.
Well, during that time, Australia went into COVID
lockdown. They were stuck on the island for like
three months. Australia wouldn't let them back
in because, well, you don't have you don't have
the vaccine. So you can't back in the country
like we're in Fiji. There's no there's no hospital
here administering any of this stuff. We're on
this random small island at this hotel and they're
just stuck there, you know. And then I was talking
to them and, you know, they're talking about
how you can only travel so many kilometers from
your house only to get groceries and you got
to go back. And I remember I was supposed to
go to Tokyo like I was I was on trajectory to
make it to Tokyo for the games. and when all
the stuff got canceled i didn't end up going
but they sent us this pamphlet this 33 page pamphlet
and it explained all the rules and all the guidelines
uh for covet and it was so intense so if you
competed on a wednesday earliest you could get
to japan is monday had to compete on wednesday
had to leave by friday so you only be in country
for five days couldn't leave the venue couldn't
go to tokyo um you were tested multiple times
a day for the rona you basically just went from
the airport to the venue got your stuff tested
back to where you stayed you competed and then
you left and and that was that was pretty much
it so a lot of that stuff i think was was put
in a place to basically kind of force your hand
you know oh man especially remember nurses oh
you guys you can't come to work unless you get
this and so you've got people who have some serious
internal conflicts with having to take something
like that. They're like, I can't, I can't do
it. Whether it's for, you know, religious reason,
maybe they're just completely a hundred percent
anti -vax. They don't take anything. Or they're
just like, you know what? There's not enough
research done with this. I don't know what the
long -term issues might be. I really don't want
to put this stuff in my body, but I got to work.
I got kids. I got to put food on the table, you
know? So then your hand's forced to do that.
And then God forbid you end up doing it and you
suffer a complication from it that puts you out
of work indefinitely. Right. Like, and that's,
that's what you had to, to basically weigh out.
And I had argument after argument with my wife
about it. Cause you know, I was like, I'm a healthy
individual. I don't need any of this stuff. I
wasn't really worried about it at all. At any
time, I was not worried about it. I was like,
you know what? I think I'll be fine. When I would
run into people on the street, they weren't,
they weren't worried about it either. Now, mostly
it was, you know, homeless people or even your
occasional addicts I would run into. I was like,
what do you guys think about what's going on
here? They're like, ah. I don't know anybody
who's got it. I don't know any of that. Now,
their circles are much smaller. They're not associating
with hundreds of different people. So the likelihood
of knowing anybody with it maybe might not be
that great. But for the most part, they weren't
worried about it. They were more worried about
where am I going to get food next? Where am I
going to find whatever it is I'm looking for,
whether it's alcohol, drugs, or something like
that. But they weren't out there running around
scared for the most part. But it was just interesting
how everyone else behaved, though. I've heard
that from multiple people that work with the
homeless in Skid Row. during that time. And they're
like, dude, we had almost no, didn't say dude,
they said we had almost no COVID amongst the
homeless. And again, now you take a step back
to what should have been talked about, because
I've said this over and over again, what people
were told was, be scared, we'll tell you when
you can come out. stay in your homes get fast
food and alcohol delivered binge watch the tiger
king don't see your family and friends and it's
like if you wrote down how do you destroy you
know a nation that would literally be what you
wrote pretty much and if you look at the homeless
even though don't get me wrong i'm not saying
that a lot of homeless people are probably the
picture of health especially if it's addiction
you know but what are they doing they're moving
a lot they're in daylight all day long they're
amongst each other You know what I mean? So there
is community if you are parts of groups of shelters,
whether you're living under the tunnels under
Las Vegas or you're in shelters every evening.
There probably is, you know, arguably more community
in the homeless population during COVID than,
as you said, people in the middle of millions
of people in Sydney, Australia that aren't allowed
to leave a hotel room. So what are the takeaways?
You know, you should have gone outside. You should
have exercised. You should have spent time with
people that you love because, you know, that
is the. Most important thing when it comes to
physical and mental health is your relationships.
So all the things that we were told not to do,
flip it on its ass, and that's what you should
do next time. And the irony is that the homeless
people didn't seem to suffer from COVID, yet
the so -called, air quotes, healthy people that
were hiding in their homes were dropping like
flies in certain areas. Wasn't that the Swedish
model, though? Weren't the Swedes like, hey,
this stuff's coming through. Like, you know what?
Let's just keep things as normal and we'll see
what happens. And it turns out nothing happened.
So Sweden never I don't I don't think they went
into lockdown or if they did, it was like very
short. But I'm pretty sure the Swedes were kind
of like, you know, we're going to just run business
as usual. And they did. And then lo and behold,
you know, nothing happened. There wasn't mass
deaths to Sweden. We didn't go from, you know,
nine million Swedes to like one million Swedes.
And, you know, Stockholm's completely decimated.
That never happened. They kind of just went about
their business and things were fine. I think
what they did is like, you know, most when it
first came out, I think everyone was super careful,
but Florida did something similar. You know,
it wasn't long after they started kind of opening
this, you know, this bigot again. And they think
they did restaurants first and then it was gyms
and, you know, hair salons and all the kind of,
you know, services to get people out. And it
was just a measured response. Okay, we're all
shutting down. We don't know what this is. Okay,
it's not looking as bad as we thought. Let's
start kind of opening it up, see how it is. And
we've got, you know, all these elderly people
in Florida. But we've also got a lot of sunshine,
a lot of space, a lot of green, you know, so
when you get people outside, and Sweden, I remember
being demonized by the world for what they were
doing. And then, you know, Florida, certainly
within the States was similar. But look at the
Swedish population, and Scandinavia in general,
they're very, very healthy, big surprise, they
didn't really seem to suffer much from COVID.
So I think that was the perfect plan. Don't do
things that are going to make their health worse.
If it's what they're doing is making them healthy,
keep doing that same thing. So, and yeah, of
course, keep the immunocompromised and the elderly
and anyone else that might be in danger of any
sort of exposure, keep them isolated and then
the rest of us keep the world running so that
we can take care of those people. So again, where's
that conversation of who did it well and how
do we mirror them next time? And that's something
that they should look into, especially, I mean,
if you just statistically like look at the numbers,
you know, look at the death tolls and let's take
Scandinavia. Let's look at the Norwegian, the
Swedes, the Finns and what they did and and then
look at other. areas and see, OK, where did we
experience more death? What were the vaccine
rates like? But nobody seems to really be that
interested. And it's kind of like once it was
over, they're kind of like, oh, you know, and
we're on to whatever the next big thing is now,
you know, because what captured our attention?
The conflict in Ukraine, like COVID was just
like gone, like a conflict in Ukraine happened.
Bam, it's like COVID was not a thing anymore.
Nobody was talking about it. It was the next
the next thing we had moved on to. But I think
we do need to go back, reassess, look at it,
and just make sure that we don't repeat that
kind of behavior again. Because I feel like we
could have learned a lot from it. And by either
ignoring it or just moving on from it, we're
missing out on that opportunity to understand
what it is we did. Because that was basically
a giant social experiment on human behavior.
And what's really scary about it is you make
up the next boogeyman for whatever reason, whatever
it might be, and you know exactly how people
are going to behave. based on that criteria.
Well, that's a good segue. Speaking of boogeyman,
so ICE. Again, the normal people standing in
the middle would in no way, shape or form argue
with the fact that if people are over here illegally
and are then not contributing positive to society,
but actually being a detriment to society, they
should be tracked down and sent back to where
they came from. But I would argue, this is just
my opinion, that also people that have been here
for a long time that fled, whatever, they were
fleeing for whatever reason, and have now been
a functioning member of society and maybe even
had another generation of children, shouldn't
be hunted down like dogs. And maybe there should
be a kind of grandfathering system there. That's
my, James Gearing's personal opinion. Talk to
me through a law enforcement officer's eyes about
what you're seeing with this, the entire ICE
mission. Because again, there's areas of complete
legitimacy, but it feels like there's also areas
that if you and your men and women did what we're
seeing on the streets, you would be front page
news and terminated the next day. Sure. And many
law enforcement agencies don't really work in
conjunction with ICE. And that has to do with
how the city governments are run. You know, if
they if you work in like a sanctuary city, let's
say Philly, Los Angeles, Chicago, places like
that. Well, their their governments are say,
OK, here's what we'll do. We won't assist as
in we don't provide information. They're not
going to come to our jail and be like, hey, how
many illegal immigrants do you got in here? They're
not going to do any of that. But if they stumble
across them, they won't necessarily interfere
with their ability to get them. Now, where I'm
at, I can say I've only heard through word of
mouth that the. immigration enforcement is in
the area i've never seen them uh because maybe
i'm not in the area where they're operating or
maybe they're just saying like they're in the
greater area but the way that dayton is made
up it's like a greater metropolitan area of a
lot of smaller jurisdictions outside of it so
if they're operating in huber heights they'll
just say oh they're in dayton they're not really
in dayton they're in huber heights they're in
like a town north of the city um So now to address
what you said about people who had been here
a long time trying to find some way to grandfather
him. I know I think under the Obama administration,
they had what? Didn't they grant like amnesty
to a bunch of them? So maybe it covered them.
I read a story about a guy. He was here. Can't
remember what country he's from. I don't know
if it was Iran. He'd been here like 60 years.
He was a doctor. um out on the east coast somewhere
and and they they sent him back because he never
never applied for citizenship but what i find
funny i guess about it is so he's a doctor which
means he went to a university then he went and
got his you know, PhD, went to med school, did
all that. And at no point in time did anybody
catch the fact that, oh, this guy's not supposed
to be here. How did he get loans, you know, without
a social security number and all this other stuff?
So I think if they really want to crack down
on it, they need to bolster all the other avenues
with which people are able to function or operate
in the country. Or we can just adapt the Singapore
model where come on in, but we're going to pay
you exactly what you would make in your home
country. And then it makes it very difficult
to live here because if Laos is only paying you
59 cents an hour, that's all you're going to
get in America. It makes it not a very friendly
place to be. So it's we don't really see a huge
amount in in the city. Like, I mean, I run across
I run across like people that are here illegally
all the time, all the time. Honduras, Ecuadorians,
you know, my job is not to. see them get their
information by hey ice hey yeah i got this guy
no we don't do that because that's that's not
my job um we just find if they committed a crime
then we follow our steps and we either lock them
up or we tell them they gotta like show up for
court so i can give you an example of a call
i was on uh this guy was assaulted we get there
the man who assaulted him was an ms -13 gang
member he had all the tattoos and all that stuff
well a lady shows up and She speaks Spanish,
but the MS -13 guy didn't know that. So he's
making all these threats to this guy. And she's
like talking to me. She's like, hey, he said
he's going to do X, Y, and Z, blah, blah, blah.
Talked to the other officer. I was like, hey,
here's what we got. We end up arresting the guy.
That guy was deported in two weeks. Now, when
it happened, how it happened, I don't know. But
I know he was gone like immediately after that.
So it works. It's effective. But for your average
just, you know, it works in a restaurant or does
roofing or something like that. Those people,
I haven't seen them been concerned about people
looking for them. And they continue kind of like
just to work and they don't really bother anybody.
The people who know that, oh, if we're committing
crimes or doing something, they get caught very
quickly. Somebody somewhere along the lines probably
notifies them, hey, this person committed a felony.
Oh, they don't have proper documentation or paperwork.
OK, we're going to work on the process to get
them sent back to, you know, wherever they come
from. Yeah, because it sort of seems like that.
It seems to me, and again, I'm completely naive.
I come from the fire EMS side, no law enforcement
experience whatsoever. But it seems like up until
recently, that was already in place. Like we
had an aggressive immigration system where, yeah,
if you, I was subjected to it. Like I was a green
card holder for a long time. If I had committed
a crime, I'd be deported back to the UK. Yeah,
they sent you back. Yeah, so I'm fully aware,
you know what I mean? But that wasn't people
running around in balaclavas with no ID. throwing
people into the back of suvs so that is what's
changed it's not that we didn't have an immigration
enforcement before the level that you know they're
doing it now and it's funny i was watching the
ufc on youtube just before we started recording
and an ice commercial recruitment commercial
came up fifty thousand dollar signing bonus student
loan forgiveness and i'm like i don't know any
first responders that got a fifty thousand dollar
signing bonus and we're out there you know all
day every day So, you know, there's definitely
a discrepancy as far as that even being than
telling the story of that being a thing before,
because it should be and it should be a deterrent
for anyone that's thinking of sneaking in here
and doing bad things. But it's what we're seeing
now, that kind of overreach that concerns me,
because as we said before, if we've got that
kind of sheep mentality and we turn our heads
to whatever our, you know, political Jesus is
of that four years. and let them do whatever
they want to do without any sort of checks and
balances that's a dangerous way of of you know
of being a civilian in this country yeah it can
be um so i so what is it as if you come in the
country illegally as they say it's a civil offense
it's not a criminal offense which is why people
always the argument will be like well they're
not committing a crime uh therefore they're not
criminals therefore they can't be detained and
sent back that's like well either you have immigration
and you enforce it or you don't. So if they really
wanted to tackle it, they just need to make it
a misdemeanor offense, misdemeanor criminal offense.
I don't know, a legal trespass into the country
or something like that, because I don't even
know what the civil offense is called unless
it's just like a legal entry, because technically
you're supposed to come in through a port of
entry. So like somewhere in New York or somewhere
in California. But if you're from Angola and
you walked in through Mexico, it's like, hmm.
okay what are we doing here well because you
know that what they're going to do is they're
going to grab you they're going to give you a
piece of paper say hey you have to come to court
for this so if you're seeking asylum this is
what you got to do and then they vanish and there's
no there's no follow -up so i think because the
system the way that it's set up now is just very
disorganized and very sloppy it's either it's
either that or it's so backlogged that we can't
even get to people that need to have their court
hearing uh because there's like four million
people in line and there's only like 20 judges
that handle it or something you know so the process
is so slow no wonder the people aren't showing
up to court because you got guy a who comes up
through the border he's here for whatever reason
they catch him hey you gotta be a court in two
weeks all this is explained in english the dude
speaks no word of english has no idea what you
handed him but he's like oh i got family in san
jose i'm headed to san jose and then never shows
up again but his family in san jose set him up
with a job doing roofing or laying concrete,
he starts working, starts sending money back
home. And he's never heard from again, you know,
and until he runs into police, whether it's for
OVI, you know, which is a misdemeanor offense,
depending on, I guess, your state or some other
small offense, he'll go to court. He'll get a
translator. They'll talk. They'll hit him with
a little fine. They'll suspend the license that
he doesn't have already and then send him on
his way, you know, and then it just kind of operates
like that. So. I mean, you're either going to
really crack down on it or you're kind of going
to just let it operate as is. But if you want
to do that, you've got to start with figuring
out, do you want this to be a criminal offense
or do you want it to be a civil offense? I know
that if I go in somewhere like Europe, like I
remember when I was in Germany and I was studying
abroad there, I overstayed my visa by a month,
I think. I was there for a year. But I ended
up leaving in June. I was supposed to leave in
May when I get to the airport. The German guy
and Germans, you know, they're very strict, very
rule oriented. Looks at my passport. He's like,
you overstayed your visa. I was like, yeah, I
know. I was like, but I'm going home. He's like,
we could ban you from this country for the next
like three years. And from the whole Schengen
area, if we wanted to, I was like, you really
want to do that? I was like, I don't plan on
coming back. And he's like, no, it's okay. He
just stamped it and left. Good thing he did because
I ended up getting an internship three years
later in Frankfurt. So I actually did come back
to Europe and I was glad I wasn't banned for
like three to five years. I wouldn't be able
to come back, you know? Um, but he had the power
to be able to do that right then and there, but
we don't have anything like that where if an
ice guy picks you up, um, you know, they detain
you for a second and you go to a facility and
then the government kind of does what the government
does takes forever to make any decision or do
anything. And then you got all these people sitting
in limbo or they get overwhelmed with it. So
the real question is, you know, what do you,
what do you do to make it more efficient? You
know? So, and I don't have the answer to that.
Well, I think the part of the conversation that
you don't hear is what are we doing to make it
worse in these countries where people are wanting
to flee and come here? So I saw a video. I wish
I could remember who it was. It was really well
articulated. But they said, yeah, the example
of someone comes over here from another country
and they, you know, become a doctor. I think
that was literally the example they use. They
said that that's great. I mean, they are. absolutely
filling a role here. But what you've done is
you've also taken a doctor away from, in this
case, the example was India. So now that guy
could have been a great doctor for the people
of India, but he's over here. And you have, in
theory, taken away a spot for a member of the
US to become a doctor. And I think his point
was, and look at our medical system. It's so
hard. We have these ridiculous prereqs that these
people have to pass, the high -level math and
all these other areas. hundreds of thousands
of dollars of student debt, it's a lot cheaper
for these hospitals to hire an Indian doctor
and bring them over. So that was more of a nuanced
conversation then. It's not a racist conversation,
but it's like, it's what I kind of mirror with
Haiti. Haiti is on my doorstep here in Florida.
Why is the US as powerful and affluent and influential
as we are not be able to help Haiti get onto
its feet and turn it into another beautiful tourist
destination? Where they have a solid income and
a solid stream of people on cruise ships and
other things and be self -sustaining. But our
closest neighbors are in a fucking war zone.
And it's no wonder they're coming to the Faridian
Coast in boats because they're being hacked to
death at home. That's easy to answer. Go for
it. That's easy to answer. There's no return
on investment. What does the U .S. get out of
that? You just got to break it down to a numbers
game. Now, conversely, you can argue, well, what?
did the U .S. get out of assisting Ukraine in
the conflict with Russia? Well, that's a geopolitical
thing. You know, that's about where you want
to have your influence. If we have influence
in Haiti, what do we get out of that? We get
an island that's half the size of Florida, maybe
even smaller than that, right? And we give them
a bunch of money and nine times out of 10, it's
going to get laundered by whoever it gets to,
you know, because you have to define what does
the idea of help look like for them? Could we
go in there with the U .S. military and get everything
under control? Oh, ASAP. U .S. military is fantastic
at that. But what the U .S. military is not good
at and what we learned, especially in Afghanistan,
they're not construction workers and rebuilders.
They're not educators. That's not what they do.
But that's what you have to do if you're going
to go in and do that, right? You can go in. You
can take over the whole thing. Two weeks, no
problem. But then the question becomes, well,
what do we do now? Who's going to run the country?
Who has the best interest at heart for the people
of that country? So while it's detrimental there
and things are going crazy. It's not our responsibility
to do anything with it. Yeah, well, I think it's
just now that becomes a humanitarian thing. So
I've said this a lot recently. We have the term
World America, Team America, World Police, and
it's so true. We go in there, just like you said,
we're blowing everything up, but there's no real
understanding of, is it making any better? Conversely,
A, if we really invested in our own nation and
got it where our people were healthy and happy
and our children weren't rehearsing their murders
in schools. Then we would be the poster child
for true democracy and then be able to influence
and help other countries and do it from a humanitarian
perspective, not expecting a shitload of money
in return. But the teacher man, the fish philosophy,
don't just throw money at Haiti, help Haiti get
back on its feet. But I think there's also a
responsibility to look at our policies in the
past and what impact have they had. And if you
look at drug prohibition that was forced on the
world by Harry Anslinger in the 50s and beyond,
sorry, the 30s and beyond, epic fucking failure
we all no one can dispute that you know it hasn't
worked there are there are still addiction and
now there's gangs and cartels and all these things
that spawn what you know that has created a lot
of these people fleeing el salvador colombia
mexico etc etc so again how can we use this immense
power that we have for the good to reverse some
of this damage and therefore reduce the number
of people that are fleeing their countries because
they're now They feel happy and safe and want
to be that doctor in India or Colombia or whatever
it is. Yeah. So I guess what we would have to
figure out is what is the underlying or systemic
issue that exists in the country that these people
are coming from, how to root that out, and then
how to... get them to want to improve the situation
that they have. And that is, there's so much
work that is involved in that process. So you
mentioned the word humanitarian, right? US used
to be all about that. So I remember, let's go
back to the fall of Yugoslavia in the 90s, right?
Collapses, the Serbs started attacking the Bosnians.
We're like, hey, we can help with this. Europe's
like, no, we'll take care of it. It's in our
backyard. Don't interfere. Cool. What happens?
Srebrenica. 8 ,000 men and boys walk to a random
area, killed. Now Europe's like, oh crap, we
need some help. What happens? Clinton comes in,
drops bombs for two weeks. Problem over, problem
solved. End of conflict. We get Dayton Peace
Accords here in Dayton in like 1995 or something
like that. I don't remember the exact year. Then
we get involved in Somalia, where the movie Black
Hawk Down comes from. Another humanitarian assistance
thing that went all bad on the helicopter crash.
They dragged the Americans through their their
bodies on fire, hanging from ropes in the streets,
pretty much put a horrible taste in our mouth
for getting involved in a humanitarian aspect.
So post Black Hawk down, we really have only
been involved in conflicts where we see some
kind of end game benefit to us. So going into.
what, like the Iraq war, where it was like under
the guise of weapons of mass destruction, where
people were like, oh, we want to get oil, some
kind of resource, something that we can grasp
onto that will have some kind of backend benefit
for America. So without that being the main motivator,
it would have to be kind of like the goodness
of our heart. Well, you want to do something
like that, you're going to have to do, I'm a
big fan of referendum votes. Ask the people.
Hey, here's what we have. Here's what we could
allocate. Are you interested in doing this? We've
got this conflict in, let's say, Namibia. We
could allocate them $3 billion and end this conflict
overnight. Do you guys want to do this? Yes or
no? We're voting on Tuesday. America comes out
and says, yeah, we're about this. It's a very
little amount. It's less than the missiles that
come on a B -2 bomber. Let's go ahead and cover
that cost. And we do it, and everything turns
out great for Namibia. Yeah, but we had a choice.
We had a say in that. Nine times out of 10, though,
we don't. All we do is we wake up in the morning.
Oh, we just bombed what? Someplace in Syria.
What are we doing that for? And then you have
to start doing research, you know, six months,
a year prior to to figure out why we were getting
involved in something that we had no idea we
were doing. So I feel like a lot of times we're
either in the dark or the government's like.
You know, we're going to do what we think is
in our best interest and the American people
will find out about it after the fact. But at
the end of the day, there's not really anything
they can do about it because voting is only every
four years or every six years or whenever you
have your like state votes that are going to
determine who you're going to put in. But it
works so slowly, you're not going to be able
to change or control any of that. So if you want
to help the folks in Venezuela or you want to
help the folks in Haiti or anywhere else, I don't
really know how you do that. within the next
decade you know so yeah you can do it financially
but they're going to need more than that because
the question becomes how do you teach people
how to effectively run a country yeah you know
that's a process in and of itself so and i don't
have the answer to that right here but that's
ultimately what you have to be able to do you
can give somebody all the money in the world
but if they squander it or they launder it and
only certain people hold on to it well who did
you benefit nobody you send them food but the
government interrupts those shipments and they
take it for themselves well who did you help
nobody but you spent a lot of money you wasted
a lot of money and what do the people who gave
that get in return nothing right except for maybe
they might feel good about it till they find
out that the the food you sent was set on fire
And they recorded it like, look, we don't want
any of this American stuff coming in here or
the money was used to purchase our own weapons
that we end up selling back to them that they
use to oppress the people that they're already
oppressing in the first place. So, yeah, people
can pontificate on length that like what to do
with this. So, you know, should we get involved
in the humanitarian stuff? I mean, that's that's
up to you, really. I think I mean, again. like
you said this is what i've heard a lot americans
are very generous if you look at the amount of
donations and things that they've done you know
and let's look at the service for christ's sake
you know the last 20 years of people that put
their hand up post 9 11 um even if as you alluded
to sometimes that was used to send people to
iraq completely wrong country that's a whole
other conversation but um you know i think that's
just it if you could show well hey We've got
these incentives that are actually going to make
our own country healthier, which is going to
bring down the immense health care costs incredibly.
And that's how we're freeing up the money. And
what we want to do with some of it is to actually
help our neighbors to the south. I think, you
know, that when it's put that way, it would.
But if it's like, oh, they want more of our money
to go help Haiti, then I think people are going
to be like, well, fuck Haiti. I'm worried about
my gas prices. You know, so it's not about needing
more money. This is what I like about Bernie
Sanders when he was talking on Joe Rogan and
people gave him enough time to actually articulate
his entire - I watched that. Yeah, yeah. There's
so much wasted money. It's what I talk about
in the fire service and I'm sure law enforcement.
You look at the money that is wasted on this
retention and recruitment crisis that we have
at the moment and forcing the men and women in
uniform to work all those extra time and be away
from their families even more and then the impact
on their health and that increasing the workman's
comp. you know, claims and the premiums and all
these other things, and not to mention the lawsuits
and everything else that comes from overworked,
under -supported people, that's your money for
more staffing, more training, more, you know,
a higher salary, better benefits, all the things
that will attract the best candidates to come
in. It's not we need more taxpayers' money, it's
we need to use the money properly. I think exactly
to your point. Your basic argument is it's a
spending issue. It's always a spending issue.
It's not a tax issue because how many times do
we see in the news? U .S. government collected
record taxes. Like, that's great. But on top
of that, we did record spending. We outspent
what we took in. You know, this is always spending.
It always boils down to spending. Funny you mentioned
something, though, since you were talking about
fire. And I wanted to I'm going to flip this
around on you and ask you a question. What are
your thoughts on who Mamdani in New York picked
for the FDNY? I don't know anything about the
lady or anything like that, but I figured you
might know something. Yeah. I also, one other
thing, I did not realize how little EMTs in New
York city make. I thought they made so much more
than that. So I can see why it's, it's the conversation
that it is. Cause I was really surprised. I don't
know how you're able to even live there making
so little. And that's the real conversation,
isn't it? Like, is the person a good leader or
not? But one of the things I always talk about
prejudice in the first responder providing fire,
especially because I saw. Again, from one extreme,
you know, this kind of laughing at who this person
is, their gender, all this stuff. And, you know,
just had EMS and no fire experience. And then,
you know, the other side, I've seen people saying
they've got a great track record. They're a good
leader. And so, again, I don't know. I don't
work in New York. I don't know this person personally,
which is the only way I'd really be able to have
a, you know, hand on my heart perspective of
this. But our profession as a whole is in crisis.
Because of that, you can look at the people who
were at the helm in wherever we were. Were they
trying to make a difference in this crisis or
are they the people that created this crisis?
So whatever their track record is, male, female,
whoever the commissioner or whoever the person
is, that's what I would look at. All right, we
have a recruitment crisis, we have a retention
crisis, we have a physical mental health crisis.
locally here i can tell you it's got fucking
worse so the people that are in charge of departments
around me should be fucking got rid of and new
people brought in and all the way up to the county
commissioners because we have had so many bad
things happen from most recently four firefighters
arrest for hazing which have resulted in 10 terminations
a week before christmas so some of those people
i'm sure had nothing to do with it and were just
you know thrown under the bus No looking at all
at the top. So I don't know. When it comes to
New York, I'm so disconnected from that that
I don't have an opinion. It's not me being safe.
It's just I'm completely undereducated. So for
me to say anything would be irresponsible. But
if they have a good track record of being a great
leader and have made big improvements in wherever
they were responsible, then great. Let's give
them a chance. If they've been part of the problem.
which, you know, I can say locally here, then
absolutely not. It would be a horrible pick if
we had the re -election of the people that we
have at the moment. So that's my thing. It's
pretty fucking obvious to see these days if you've
got a good leader or not, because our professions,
plural, are in shambles. And there are some really,
really good thought leaders in this space and
a lot of fucking morally cowardice, you know,
people that just happen to have a bunch of bugles
on their shirt. So track record speaks everything.
If you have an apartment where people are lining
up to work for you and people hardly ever leave
and cancer, suicide, addiction, all those are
relatively low, then fantastic. You've got a
really, really great culture and leadership there.
If it's the opposite, then there's your sign.
Yeah, but who's doing that? I can't think of
a single EMS fire police agency where people
are like, man, that's where I'm trying to go.
This is where I want to be or else we would hear
about it. Record people line up to work for Oklahoma
City Police Department or something like that.
But we're seeing the exact opposite. And I know
you wanted to hit on recruitment, right? For
the type of work that we do. Well, what I've
been saying for a long time, and this would even
make it more difficult to get the numbers up,
but our line of work, whether it's Fire EMS or...
or police it should pay really well and be very
difficult to get into absolutely that's where
you're going to get your best candidates from
because what we tend to see is the bar keeps
getting dropped lower and lower and lower and
then people are surprised when um we start seeing
these things in the news about an officer did
you know x y and z here or firefight like you
said been arrested for hazing or something like
that well how did we get those individuals or
how did they end up getting in these positions
these trusted positions where you want the best
of the best showing up well that's what you do
You reel them in with the money and then you
make sure that the standards are so high that
by the time that they're finished, they're going
to be the best of the best. And you're not going
to have any worries when they show up. They're
going to be professional. They're going to be
fit and they're going to be well educated in
the ways of departmental policy and how to do
their job effectively. So in the fire side, there's
a couple of examples like in my career, Anaheim
Fire. I mean, we I've said this many times. This
was when recruitment was better. But I was testing
against a thousand people, certified candidates
in the convention center in Anaheim for 30 spots,
3 -0. There was two classes of 15. Then you get
in and through attrition, because that bar is
held so high in that first probationary year,
usually they would lose another 25 % of that
probate class. So you end up being basically
1 % of that room per class. So I was 1 % of those
thousand people that they actually made it through
to the end of probation. So I've kind of lived
that high bar. I've lived the low bar that's
dug in a trench where 18 and a heartbeat, come
on in. Oh, you know, you do a test and you scored
number one, but wait, we've got to redo the test
because you find out later down the road that
the son of a chief didn't make it to this the
first time. So they redo it and now he's magically
made it. I mean, that kind of shit going on.
And then recently, I think it was either New
York or one of the big, big metro departments.
Someone was telling me that in the PD side, they
had five applicants for a posting. Yikes. You
can't even have a class with five people. So
this is the thing. I could not agree more. This
is a job where you cannot be taking all of the
lists. And when I was so frustrated locally,
and it just hit me like last week, I'm like,
why? Why is this a thing? Why, you know, are
we seeing such issues and locally here when I'm
seeing all these departments around the country,
lean into these solutions, there's so much pushback.
And I didn't realize until recently, they've,
they've been basically hiring everyone on the
list for decades here. So this is what we're
seeing now is when you get that. shitty candidate
that never would have made it in a good fire
department now you give them bugles now you're
really in fucking trouble because that low bar
firefighter is now a chief or lieutenant or a
captain or whatever and now you're screwed because
they don't understand leadership and they don't
understand moral courage and now they're in charge
like they are number one number two so this is
what's terrifying is We have people, you know,
we're worried about, oh, if we drop the standards.
Well, some places the standards have been dropped
for a long time. And now we're seeing those people
in class A's with, you know, with all the bugles.
And you imagine the ripple effect on lives that
that has when someone who never would have even
made it into wearing the fucking uniform is now
in charge of an entire fire department. Well,
then, so I guess the question becomes like, well,
what do you do? You know, because if you if you
let's say we do raise the standard and you've
got 200 people and just based on the standard,
even if you just kick it up a notch, I only got
10 people that even meet the lowest part of that
new standard. So now you can't have a class.
Well, you do that for a few years. Now, your
rate of attrition at any given department where
you're at is to the point where, oh, well, now
we're. 100 people short or 200 people short so
then i think that's kind of like what leads to
the bar getting dropped because like oh we need
bodies you know to to get it filled back up and
then we'll figure out uh where to put the standard
after that because once we hit like the the 300
400 500 people that we need then we can work
on being more stingy about it but the problem
is We're all at bare minimums now across the
country to where apartments are offering these
sign on bonuses. They're trying to like siphon
people off from other areas to fill these spaces
that I feel like they're forced to just kind
of having to accept anyone, you know, because
they don't want it to be where there's a documentary
on Netflix about Flint, Michigan. I remember
watching it and I was so shocked because they
had. One officer responding to a domestic violence
where the suspect was on scene. I was like, that's
horrible. Then they had another one guy. He was
feloniously assaulted. They didn't respond to
him until three days later. He was already out
of the hospital, head all stitched up, and they
just didn't have the power to respond. So, you
know, that's the extreme, of course, where you
got an apartment with 20 people in a place that's
got 100 ,000 citizens. That's not going to work.
One accident or one. officer involved thing,
your whole department is tied up. Tanner Iskra,
Imagine a school shooting. Tanner Iskra, Exactly.
You don't even have enough officers to lock down
a school, let alone search it. So you need mutual
aid from the county or neighboring jurisdictions.
And so that in and of itself causes a problem.
But I remember it was really post, like it was
kind of bad already, but post George Floyd, annihilated.
police departments across the country as far
as recruiting went you know because they were
they were getting viewed poorly in the media
and then on top of that it was difficult to try
and get recruitment from certain areas of the
city where you might be trying to recruit and
now because you don't have anybody well what
do you do how do you get those people in you
can incentivize them with money but if the money's
not there then that's not an option so what you
get is you get these really great academies or
these really great cities to put people through
training and then they leave. They become the
official training academy for the state and then
they just go elsewhere. Oh, I got my certification.
I'm going to go where there's more money, where
it's safer, where I have to do less work that's
going to put my life in danger because I want
to get home at the end of the day. See, it's
interesting and it's more nuanced with your profession.
I want to explore it in a second, but with the
fire. The solutions are so glaringly obvious,
which is what kills me because we don't have
the bad press element that you guys had forced
on you. No, you guys are great. Everybody loves
fire. They do superficially when it comes to
actually standing behind and understanding the
profession, not so much, but at least there is
that kind of, you know, post 9 -11, you know,
I say adoration and I don't mean that like anyone
wants to be feel that way, but there is, there
is that kind of, you know, firefighters are respected
profession, but when it comes to actually. Putting
your money where your mouth is getting behind
your firefighters, that's where, you know, the
rubber doesn't meet the rose a lot of times.
But we had, as I mentioned, you know, such a
high recruitment standard 20 years ago, where
I know friends, you know, when I went to California
that were testing four or five years before they
finally got picked up. And these were good candidates.
They ended up being great firefighters, but it
was just, it was so, so competitive. So the first
question is, both of our professions, well, what
have we done wrong? And obviously you can allude
to, because if you think about it, yours was,
you know, post Rodney King, and yet it was still
very competitive in the early 2000s. You know
what I mean? So you can recover from those events.
But in my profession, it's just simply that the
way that we were worked. you know, was completely
misunderstood with the integration of EMS, with
the increase of relying on 911 for all things
healthcare, you know, from the slicing and dicing
of department budgets. I mean, these all contributed
to a downward spiral. And if you look at simply
a budget sheet of a fire department's overtime
and the costs of training someone and then leaving,
And then the workman's comp premiums. And like
I said, the lawsuits and the medical retirement
payments and the line of duty death payments.
There are millions and millions. LAFD, their
overtime, it was in the paper a few weeks ago,
their overtime for the last four years was $1
.2 billion. Overtime, not operating costs, overtime.
So the money is there. And they obviously expand
contracts on the size of the city and the county,
but the money is there. It really is. So for
my profession, you front load the money. Yes,
you will need a bump in taxes initially. But
again, like we said with the Haiti conversation,
you tell your taxpayers, but here's how we are
running so inefficiently. Our ability to deliver
service to you at the highest level is being
brought down. So we're going to remedy that by
we're going to invest. We're going to hire more
firefighters. And then. you know, this unneeded
overtime and all these ripple effects of exhausted,
you know, injuries and issues and mistakes, they're
going to all but go away. So that's my profession,
you know, but you've got to create an environment
that tells a cop or a firefighter or a paramedic
or an EMT that we value you. We're going to pay
you well. We're going to give you the physical,
mental health surroundings. We're going to put
in a fitness standard so you stay healthy. you
know which drives me crazy when unions fight
that so that now you these young candidates are
excited and then like you said you put the damn
bar high because that's the misnomer the low
bar doesn't attract people it only attracts the
wrong kind of people a high bar attracts the
right kind of people but the right kind of people
also know all the other things that need to be
in place for them to operate at a high level
and they value their time at home they value
their physical and mental health So the way that
we pull young people back into our professions
collectively is we show that we give a shit about
them and we challenge them to rise up to, you
know, to rise to the occasion, to reach the bar.
And so this lowering of bar, I think, is a complete
false economy. It's not working. We know it doesn't
work. So we have to invest in the profession,
give your profession not only a good salary,
but show where all the training is. Like we are
going to get you to a high level. We're going
to expect you to be fit and strong. We're going
to expect you to shoot in a certain way. You
know, there's the options to go into all these
special operations areas. That's how I think,
you know, in my profession, which I obviously
know a lot better, is how we turn it around.
But even in yours, it's not a case of, you know,
making sure that every candidate is, you know,
paraplegic African -American, you know, transsexual,
because let's be honest, that's been the conversation
too. It's finding and mentoring from underserved
communities that maybe don't have the resources
to enter the law enforcement, finding people
of all backgrounds, and then challenging them
to reach that bar. And I think if we had that
environment, police, fire, and EMS, we would
see that downward trajectory turn and then start
going back to 20 years ago. Yeah. And a thing
that I've seen that has proved to be an issue,
and I can attest to the police side, is how do
you make the how do you make the job appear appealing
you know how do you get that person who has either
grown up had poor experiences with police and
not due to their own not due to them specifically
but because maybe like the environment or people
around them and get them to say you know this
is something i think i want to do you know, this
is something I want to be a part of. Cause I
run into young kids all the time. I'm like, Hey
man, how old are you? Oh, I'm 20. I'm like, you,
you getting been in any trouble? You don't, you
don't have any feelings or anything. I'm like,
nah, I'm like, you should become a cop. Like
you can make really good money. Um, it's a really
good job. There's a lot of different things you
can do. You're not going to be just stuck on
the street if you don't want to be, you know,
if you really put your mind to it, you can go
and do a lot of different things. And the answer
is always the same. I'm like, no, no, but well,
why not? You know? And the answer is kind of
very, some are just very simple. I don't like
police, you know? Okay. That's fine. I was like,
but you're thinking about it incorrectly. Like
I'm giving you an opportunity in a way to get
out of the situation that you're in. And it doesn't
mean you have to do it forever. You could do
it just long enough to get you on your feet and
then go on and move and do something else. But
time and time again, because that's the recruitment
question. I don't know if FIRE has a recruitment
problem. I don't know if they're having issues
filling or getting enough people. Because if
you are getting plenty of people, then yes, that
bar skyrocketed because you're getting more than
enough people. You can be picky, right? But for
us, we can't do that because there's such a negative
connotation with police work and what you see
because the media is not going to cover the officer
who finds the old lady who has dementia and gets
her in contact with her family, right? That's
not going to get covered. No, what's going to
get covered is the dude getting pulled out of
his vehicle and Molly whopped on, but you don't
see the context beforehand where, oh, maybe he
pulled a firearm or did something like that,
right? Because they only show the snippet that
is going to make police look poor or like they're
making bad decisions. But when I watch a lot
of things, do it in a completely different context
but i have to wait until i get the whole video
right don't show me 30 seconds or something show
me the the 25 minute interaction that led to
the 30 seconds that you want to show me and then
i can make my opinion from there but i think
so many people have such a short attention span
because again of social media that they only
see that 30 seconds their whole opinion is made
up on it and there's no change in it beyond that
and so that is kind of what i feel like police
are having to uh combat against especially when
it comes to hiring or anything like that because
And there's just so much negative connotation
that's associated with the job that nobody's
really particularly interested in doing it anymore.
Remember, I know when I was growing up, all the
cops knew my name. I knew them. You wave to them.
They come over, they show you their car. People
weren't afraid of them. At least where I grew
up, it was like that. And now I try to do that
in some of the areas where I patrol, where people
get familiar with me and they'll say my name
and stuff. that kind of recognition because when
push comes to shove and you need some assistance
those people that recognize you as an officer
is doing your job and doing your job well will
be more than happy to assist you because they
remember something you did on the back end some
years ago uh just an example when i'll let you
respond i was training this kid and i tried to
tell him i was like no matter what you do no
matter who you're dealing with you've got to
treat everybody fairly You wouldn't believe how
far it goes where you take the most hardened
criminal and you refer to them as sir or mister,
whatever their last name is, Mr. Smith, let's
say, because they'll remember that. You run into
hundreds of people a day, right? But they only
run into you once. So you have one chance to
make an impression on that person. So we're going
into juvie court and this guy, he got gold teeth.
He's just your typical dude I'd probably run
into on any given day. He comes up to me, he's
like, oh. Hey, hey, Officer Branch. I was like,
hi, what's up? He's like, you don't remember
me, do you? And I was like, I had no idea who
this guy was. Didn't remember him at all. But
then he started talking and the kid I'm training
is standing right next to me. We just had this
conversation two days prior. He starts talking
to me, telling me about the issues he had with
his child's mother, how I helped him kind of
navigate that situation, get away from that.
He was able to get custody of his kid, got himself
on his feet, has a job, all because I was willing
to listen to him, not arrest him initially, because
once I understood his story, it made sense. Oh,
he's not the aggressor. He doesn't need to be
arrested for this. He actually ended up being
the one who got domestic charges against her.
That put his life on a good trajectory. So he
was at juvie court finalizing his custody for
his kid so he could get out of that situation.
He just wanted to thank me for that. So that's
why I just tried to explain to him and he could
actually see it in real time. Hey, this is what
it actually looks like. I mean, that just sums
it up. It's those relationships that have been
fractured. I don't think it was just the George
Floyd thing. I think there were so many areas.
And I've always said this. It's so unfair on
law enforcement. For a number of reasons. Firstly,
when you see one of those gray area events, for
example, no one ever says, well, how many shifts
has that guy been forced to work back to back?
You know, when did they last get some sleep?
You know what I mean? You try making the decision
when you cross -eyed because you're so exhausted.
So there's that. But there's also, you know,
as we alluded to Sweden, and they've actually
had a little issue with violence recently, but
Scandinavia as a whole, normally in most parts
of it, you're not seeing gangs on the street.
You're not seeing homelessness. You're not seeing
a lot of these issues. So what is it that we
as a society are doing wrong that's making it
harder and harder and harder to even be a police
officer in America? Full stop. And people complain
about the tactical way. They go into war. Well,
yeah, because some of these streets are like
a war. People are trying to kill them. We see
it on the TV all the time. So I think one of
the biggest recruiting tools would be as a nation
just trying to show that we're actually... standing
behind, not waving a fucking flag with a blue
line in the middle, but actually standing behind
law enforcement and politically trying to address
some of these issues that are making it so dangerous
on our streets, whether it's to help our police
officers or just to help the civilians. I mean,
what's happening in our schools? Every time there's
a shooting, there's a World War I trench conversation
on gun ownership versus all the other things
that are contributing to this. You know, when
it comes to the gangs, like, where's the conversation
again on the epic failure of drug prohibition?
And people think, oh, is he just going to go
in the grocery store and buy meth now? Like,
no, dipshit. That's not what this is about. It's
just that if you are an addict, you take some
of that money from the epic failed war on drugs
and you put it into, you know, drug addiction
counseling, mental health counseling, job creation,
housing, and you get these people that. you know,
from an altruistic point of view that are struggling
and you help them, if you want to look at an
economic point of view that are using taxes to
earning taxes, you know, you get people back
on their feet. Of course, you can't save everyone,
but there's a lot of people that we could proactively
invest in and get them to where instead of finding
themselves on the wrong side of the law, they're
actually a contributing member of society again.
But you don't hear that in the law enforcement
conversation. You guys are just sent out like
stormtroopers to mitigate whatever thing that
that politician in power at the time is telling
you to do, whether it's go help ICE in this or
go arrest these people for not having a vaccine
or whatever the thing is. So I don't think it
would take that much. But as you said, it's the
messaging. It's getting back to that community
policing. But if you're worried about being executed
in a Chinese restaurant while you have your lunch
break, it's very hard to go from that to walking
the beat like law enforcement did in the 50s.
No, 100%. To touch on what you said about the
drug stuff, I think that was the big problem
that Portland had for the past, I think it was
like three years up until maybe the last six
months or so. They want to do the Portugal method,
right? Let's legalize it, but let's make it to
where there's safe places for this. We can work
on rehabilitation X, Y, and Z, right? Well, Portland
decided we'll allow open -air drug use. But they
never did anything on the back end. They didn't
create the programs that they said they were
going to do. Law enforcement didn't enforce anything
on it. And then people were coming to them like,
why is this guy sitting over here using intravenous
drugs in front of my six -year -old? This is
a park. And the cops' hands are tied because
they're like, well, it's perfectly legal for
them to use this space. Like, yeah, but aren't
you supposed to take them and put them in a facility
where they can get the assistance they need in
order to get off of this? And like, well, they
never set that up. The money wasn't spent there.
And then three years later, they're like, oh,
we need to make these. illegal again because
it's not it's not doing what we thought it would
do but again they failed to follow up on the
back end of what they were supposed to do they
should have and again this is my opinion i'm
not an expert of this stuff set up all the facilities
and everything you need first then the last thing
you do is make it legal 100 then you got everything
you need to do it not like hey well we think
it's a good idea to make this legal because let's
let's be honest those people aren't voting you
know what i mean they're like oh man they let
us use drugs out in the open space we got to
make sure to vote for them here in the next six
months or two years down the road that's not
happening so i don't understand how that would
have been beneficial for the people who lived
in that community you know what does the guy
who's working his nine to five down the street
from his apartment what does he get by having
to walk around a guy who's smoking a meth pipe
or doing heroin on the side of a car when he
walks outside he doesn't want to see that you
know especially not if he was more forward thinking
more progressive and it's not like oh i do want
these people to get their help so if we can get
them a safe place to to use their drugs but they
get rehab they get housing they get weaned off
that drug that's what they really support i'm
sure if you ask them hey would you support people
just using drugs out in the open they're like
no but i do support people getting help like
exactly but when it's but when they did it backwards
they saw oh this didn't work and then they had
to go back and make it illegal again well i almost
i mean a part of me thinks that was you know
was that even the plan the whole time because
if you want to show something doesn't work you
do exactly that because you hear oh i didn't
work in in portland i was like no he didn't do
it right important like you said If you go to
Portugal, they're not arrested. If it's, again,
someone caught with a user's amount or a week's
worth or whatever it is, they are given, basically
are educated on the resources that are available.
It's such a great system. And they literally
reversed from the highest addiction issue to
the lowest within less than 10 years. But they
still have addicts. And as you said, those addicts,
if they can get them, they still go to safe injection
sites or they go to the methadone clinics or
whatever it is. And they're still in the hands
of the medical community. So unlike Ohio, where
police officers and medics are responding constantly
to overdoses, they're actually given a clinical
amount and they're being monitored so they get
there high, safely, and they're not dying under
a park bench somewhere. So by piecemealing it,
Obamacare is another perfect example. I had a
bike years ago. My parents bought me a bike for
my birthday and it was called a hybrid. And it
was supposed to be the best part of a racing
bike and the best part of a mountain bike. It
was the opposite. It was the fragility of a racing
bike and the slowness and weight of a mountain.
It was absolute dog shit. So if you half -ass
something, you know, you're going to get that.
And if it's done, you know, if you do that, you've
just added fuel to the fire of anyone who opposed
it in the first place. What Portugal did, and
it's funny you use the word referendum, that's
what they did. They put it to the country. hey
this american model is not working you know this
whole war on drugs lock up every addict we're
thinking of different you know different way
they put it to the country they had a majority
you know vote yes let's try this and then by
the time i think it came to the next vote even
all their opponents were on board like this is
awesome and the only challenge they've had is
so many people got well but then as politicians
do some of the people like well we can start
taking some of the money from that project now
and now they've actually put the money back in
because you take away those resources you're
going to have people start to struggle again.
But I mean, clean, safe streets and people who
are struggling being taken care of by the medical
community versus what we have here, dangerous
streets and people who are struggling empowering
the underworld. Yeah. Yeah, no. No, exactly.
Because I mean, if I take an addict and I arrest
them because I have F5 level of drugs on them
and they go to jail, I write my little report
or whatever. they'll be out in two days and they're
going to do the same thing. And it's over and
over again. That's job security for me. Cause
I know about, Oh, Hey, there goes Jack Smith
again. I'm going to go, let me check him out
real quick. He's always got drugs on him, you
know? And that's, I always refer to it as like
the cycle. Like everybody has their different
cycles, you know, whether it's Tammy and Tom
always beating up each other when they get drunk,
one of them gets arrested and so on and so on.
There's their cycle. Or, you know, you got Mark
and his son. tim tim's always running away i
gotta go get him bring him back home that's the
cycle that he's in and addicts you know they've
got theirs everybody's got their cycle of what
it is they do or what they're struggling with
but arresting somebody putting them in jail for
drugs having to get back out doesn't it doesn't
get them off drugs you know so is it is it helping
or is it hurting you know so because then you
gotta ask yourself well who who deserves to be
here the guy who is caught in an abandoned shed
behind a house with nobody living in it, who's
doing some drugs because the neighbor saw him
and called, or the guy who is constantly assaulting
his loved one in the house. Everybody's going
to say the latter. That's the one who deserves
to go. Get the first guy help, get the other
guy in jail where he belongs. And then hopefully
the person that he's assaulting will press charges
on him and make sure he goes through with proper
sentencing. I think that if we were to develop
or improve the back end of what's supposed to
assist with addiction and with housing and all
that stuff, we'd be able to get a lot of people
off the streets and solve a lot of the problems
that we're having. But that issue in and of itself
is kind of a symptom of a larger underlying issue.
And that has to do with unemployment and jobs.
used to be a hub for manufacturing when delphi
was there and a couple other massive companies
when they left now you got all these people between
1864 with no jobs um struggling to find work
you know they they get depressed then they go
into addiction whether it's alcohol or some other
kind of drug next thing you know they're caught
in a cycle they would have never envisioned and
because the place that their grandfather's grandfather's
grandfather worked at doesn't exist anymore My
wife's from North Canton. They have the Hoover
factory there. So same thing that they left years
ago. But you look at Portsmouth, Ohio, you know,
some of the hubs of the fentanyl crisis now and
you reverse engineer, you know, when did this
start? You know, it began with the prescription
drugs. And again, that legal side, we're preying
on these very... areas of the country, they knew
what they were doing, the Purdue farmers and
some of these other ones, you know, the mining
industries and the, you know, some of the other
industrial areas where accidents were more prevalent.
And then, you know, the pill mills get shut down
ultimately. And now the cartels are bringing
in the black tar heroin hitting the exact same
areas. But again, like you said, reverse engineer
is a mental health issue. If you, you know, are
earning well and you feel comfortable and you've
got benefits, you know. What's the chances of
you having a mental health crisis? A lot less
than now everything that you work for, that you
poured yourself into for 15, 20 years has been
snatched from you. And now, you know, if you're
working at all, it's not going to be probably
what your skill set is and you're struggling
for money. And then anything that was lurking
beneath the surface is obviously going to come
up. And now you've got these predatory, whether
it's legal or illegal, pill pushers. literally
saturate in your town. And then you see exactly
what we're seeing, which is hundreds of thousands
of Americans dying from opioids every single
year. When I first started in 2016, that was
the height of the opioid epidemic in that section
of Ohio. It was not unusual. I remember one day
I went to 18 overdoses in one day. And because
I was new and I was still really interested in
finding out about people and kind of where they
were coming from, I went. from a two -person,
one fatal overdose directly after that to a three
-person overdose. I found these two kids in the
basement, got them Narcan. They came back. They
were fine. Go upstairs because they were like,
hey, there's a lady upstairs. There was a third
one up there. Go up there. She was 45. I started
talking to her once she was Narcan. I found out
she had a warrant. But then I was like, you have
no history. How do you go from no history to
me finding you in an abandoned house on the second
story in a bed? Just like in the situation you're
in. And it was the same story I heard over and
over and over again from people. Had a job, got
injured. They prescribed me opioids. Insurance.
Didn't have any more because I couldn't work
because I didn't have a job. Heron was the next
best thing I could use. And so this lady who
had worked her entire life had never had any
– she'd never been arrested. Now I'm arresting
her for drug possession. Because when she came
to, she had drugs on her and she had a warrant.
And that is a – a cycle I see nine times out
of 10 for a lot of people that I arrest, um,
who are, who are dealing with addiction. And
there's the, there's the very rare breed that
I run into where a loved one or a parent actually
injected them with drugs or got them on drugs.
That's more rare than anything, but it's still,
it's, it's not so rare that it's not uncommon.
You know what I mean? It's not like, Oh, I've
only heard this once. No, I've heard 10, 20 times
that story. But the most common one is had a
job, got hurt, got on drugs, Then lost the job
and so on and so on. That's definitely the most
common one. So, you know, it's unfortunate, but
that's, you got to meet people where they're
at. And a lot of times that's, that's what I
ended up seeing and what I ended up having to
deal with out there. And I think a lot of that
could be remedied if you make the areas, especially
the ones that are hard hit with drugs. If you
make them beneficial to businesses to operate
in where they say, Hey, this is a place where
I really want to, I want to establish a business
here. You got plenty of people of age that could
work. Let's, let's get that started. Let's bring
them in. But with the way that manufacturing
has gone in the U .S. over the past four or five
decades, I don't know how we're going to make
these areas like Detroit, these areas like Dayton
or other Rust Belt areas more beneficial to operate
for these companies so they end up coming back
and wanting to develop the areas. I had a conversation
with some guests a few weeks ago now. And this
wasn't the topic of the conversation, but they
were in Detroit. And then I was asking again
about, you know, from the fire side, there's
a lot of vacancy. Detroit fire are constantly
fighting fires, but they're just, you know, arson
usually. And I was saying, well, how is the city
doing now? And what's interesting is apparently
some of these places that were the hub of addiction,
they've seen this kind of circling round of people
that have become clean. And then created groups
or even businesses, you know, for, you know,
addiction counseling and support groups. And
they're actually now coming back to those places
and they're seeing almost gentrification is the
wrong word, but like reinvesting in some of these
areas again and start rebuilding. Apparently,
Detroit is one of them. And it was funny because
you talked about arrest. One of the huge successes
of the Portuguese model is say, you know, I'm
an addict and you. detained me, because I'm not
being arrested, and you give me this education
on what's available to me, I wasn't arrested.
So I lost my job, I fell, you know, I fell into
depression, I, you know, hurt myself as well,
was on these pills, found myself addicted, and
the pills went away. So now I'm going to heroin,
you know, you've caught me. But now I'm told,
well, here are these resources, and you haven't
given me a criminal record. So when I get back
on my feet, i'm far more employable again here
how can you tell an addict well wouldn't you
just get a job you know or homeless whatever
it is when you've got a arrest record for being
homeless or being an addict now don't get me
wrong you beat people up for money or you rob
houses it's a whole different conversation but
if it's just those those two things you've impact
you know you've set them up for success if you
haven't arrested them but you've given them It's
education. So I think this is what's exciting
now is there seems to be a movement where people
are understanding what we've talked about today.
We're seeing psychedelics and MDMA healing the
very people that had to arrest people for it
before, you know, so the whole PTSD conversation.
But I think there is an awakening now where people
are starting to come full circle to where this
all began and actually start bringing the solutions.
And I hope, you know, conversations like this
will move the needle on how to do. proactive
addiction, you know, address addiction in a proactive
way so that we can get as many as we can back
on their feet. There'll always be those ones
that are just too far gone and it's heartbreaking.
But how can we get that large portion back on
the right side of the tracks again? And then
they become a force multiplier in helping other
people. Yeah, I mean, we have stuff like that.
That's like outside of my scope, like what I
do, I see it kind of more on the periphery, because
I know where the clinics but I know where some
of the locations are where addicts go to get
rehabilitation, and things of that nature. And
I'll stop and I'll talk to them to see is it
working for them? Or if it's not working for
them? Why isn't it working for them ran into
this situation? Actually? When was it? It was
the day before Thanksgiving. this giant rehab
facility out of nowhere the guy who runs is just
like y 'all gotta leave and i was talking to
people i was like what do you mean you gotta
leave like where are you supposed to go like
well the place ran out of money it's been run
out of money for six months i talked to one of
the employees she's like i haven't been paid
in over a month i'm still here though trying
to get these people somewhere to stay i was like
it's the day before thanksgiving i was like it's
gonna be just it's a building these people could
just stay in the building but no the guy was
forcing them forcing them all out so you can
You can kind of run into like that's a caveat
with some of these places that allow you to get
rehabilitation, but it's also a place that you
stay in, because if the funding runs dry and
everybody's got to vacate, well, then where do
they go? Well, they end up on the street and
they end up right back at square one doing the
same thing. So the question then becomes, OK,
how do we. better prevent stuff like that happening
in the future well that's going to boil down
to like well who's running the place you know
because the guy was running this place i've heard
his name through and through the streets and
i've never heard anything good about it so if
i know that and all the people there know that
how come the people above him who are providing
this individual money are unaware of that either
someone's lying or someone is Not being honest,
which is technically the same thing, I guess.
Either what they're saying is true and it is
happening, or they have a misunderstanding about
what's happening. But because I've heard this
individual's name for the past two years, I even
ran into somebody from Homeland Security, I think,
who's looking into the guy. I'm more likely to
believe them because their stories are always
consistent. about what's happening there so it
sounds to me if you're going to have an environment
or a business like that where you're going to
do rehabilitation and you're giving these people
housing it needs to be run by somebody who really
understands how to keep that afloat because the
last thing you want is to kick out 100 people
the day before thanksgiving to the streets when
it's 27 degrees outside because it gets really
cold here and they've got nowhere to go And everybody
was scrambling, like trying to find somewhere
to be. And I was even to the point where I was
going to offer some people rides. And we ended
up doing it. One of the rookie officers I was
with, I was like, hey, let's throw their stuff
in the back of the car. We'll put their bikes
in there. They said they had a place they could
go because they were getting trespassed, I guess,
for arguing. So we just took them down the street
and they had a place to stay. But that was one
of. 100 people who were sitting there some people
are in wheelchairs like what do you do with them
you're just gonna be like oh sorry put them out
on the curb like here you go good luck lock the
place up and leave you know part of me feels
you feel for them because you don't want anybody
to be in that situation but at the end of the
day there's only so much an individual like myself
can can do for somebody like that i can kind
of guide them hey here's where you might be able
to go um but sometimes it's not always feasible
for them again it goes back to what i was saying
what's being put on the shoulders of first responders
or police or fire or EMS while everyone else
kind of turns their head or is drawn into their
TV screen. And this is it. I mean, we have enough
resources to make sure no one is homeless, full
stop. People always say, oh, I know a guy. And
even if you helped him, he wouldn't want to.
Okay, well, then that's the guy. He's an urban
camper now if he's choosing to be out there.
But what about all the other people that don't
want to be homeless, you know, that do want to
have a roof over their head and food in their
stomach? Maybe not have to tie their dog to a
lamppost while they stand by traffic, inhaling
fumes for nine hours a day, holding a cardboard
sign. I don't think that was in their wish list
when they were in elementary school. I think
that going back to that humanitarian thing, we
have been in this environment that's so money
-focused for a long time. How do we get back
to that? humanity that we do have in this country
we are a very compassionate nation i would argue
so and then boil it down to the community level
where we're helping our own you know whether
it's the homeless the addicts you know anyone
else who's struggling the sex workers and getting
them back to to being in a place where they dreamed
of when they were a child because there's no
no desperate person out there dreamt of that
when they were three years old you know sure
so the big difference though between that example
and then like the stuff with haiti as far as
humanitarian stuff goes is um again return on
investment there's a massive return on investment
on getting an individual who is street ridden
addicted to drugs getting them off drugs getting
them off the street getting them in housing getting
them a job they they went full circle from being
productive being on the street living that life
and then back to being productive again yeah
you know i've always said is you you give a man
purpose and i'm just using man just as a general
term give a person purpose right and they'll
find a way to succeed on their own but if you
look at your life and you wake up and you open
up you know the the lid on your cardboard box
and look outside and there's no purpose to anything
you're doing you're not going to do anything
so the return on investment on getting that individual
off the street getting them back on their feet
getting a job it pays for itself you know tenfold
They they're back, they're working, you know,
are paying taxes or whatever. Maybe they go get
an apartment and then they get a house and so
on and so on. And if you do that multiple times,
you know, again and again and again, that's that's
a net benefit to society, you know, and I'm not
talking financially. It's a benefit to that individual.
It's a benefit to the people around that individual
because maybe that same person that got themselves
squared away. knows person who's in the same
situation and go talk to them like hey i know
you talk to experts who have never lived this
life but i've lived it i've been there that's
why i love listening these people talk who finally
get themselves um squared away when they talk
about the the detriments of living on the street
how they were able to find their footing like
those are the people you need to listen to they're
the experts on it because they've done it not
somebody who went to grad school and studied
you know homelessness from a book they have no
idea what they're talking about academically
they might you know they can throw a bunch of
statistics at you but they've never been digging
through garbage trying to find something to eat
to make it to the next day you know so i'd listen
to the person with the experience versus the
person with the the knowledge they attained from
reading in books absolutely couldn't agree more
all right well one more area before we go to
some closing questions you are a high level fencer
as well so again we were talking last in 2021
so what are some of the kind of highs that you've
had in that sport since Like I said, in 2021,
I was on the cusp of going to Tokyo because that
all got delayed. So this actually goes back to
2019 when a lot of that stuff was happening.
And because that all got kind of ruined by what
happened with COVID, I was like, you know what?
done fencing so i actually like was just like
not gonna fence anymore i didn't officially retire
from the sport but i was like uh i'm old enough
i'm i'm i'm not gonna do it so i stopped fencing
i didn't fence uh at all in 2022 and then i got
a phone call from from a retired rocket scientist
Oddly enough, and he had crunched all the numbers.
And he was all like, Hey, I know, I've heard
that you're not really competing anymore. But
I wanted to tell you, based on the numbers and
what I've done, you're still the number one ranked
person in this hemisphere. And I feel like if
you come back, because they changed the qualification
criteria for Paris, I think like you have a really
good chance of making it and I was like, Uh,
okay. Who are you? I'm a rocket scientist. Yeah.
And then, and then he tells me and like, I, I
still know who he is now, but, um, I was like,
okay, cool. So I, I looked into what he was saying.
I realized that he was right. I was like, okay,
I gotta, I'm going to have to get some, some
money together to be able to do this. And I ended
up going back down to Brazil for the Pan Am games.
Now, bear in mind, I hadn't fenced in like a
year. and i i think i practiced like for like
one hour i was like i think i can move around
a little bit in the chair okay let's see what
happens i go down there man it was rough i think
typically i would in pools if i pulls like five
six seven people it's like how many people you
fence in order to get direct elimination uh i
think i lost like two or three bouts to people
i'd never lost for before i was like what is
going on um then i got into direct elimination
and i won every single bout pretty much with
ease after that and as i remember a director
came over to him he's like oh i saw you you knocked
the rust off in those uh those pull bouts and
you finally found your footing and like because
i think i won my first my first de was like 15
-1 then 15 -3 then like 15 -0 wow um and then
i won the final like 15 uh it's like 15 -3 or
15 -4 or something like that um but actually
me and the guy who i won against we had made
history because it was two two americans uh garrett
who's also on the team uh he went we went one
and two so it was it was america and first and
second place which was really cool and then i
was like okay i was like i i think i can probably
still do this again and what they changed about
the criteria for qualifying was so i'm a foilist
i fence one weapon i don't fence multiple weapons
there's some people who do and i understand why
you would like if you're going to fly to thailand
you don't want to just compete in like one event
fence as many events as you can because you're
already there you spent 27 hours getting there
you know fence as much as possible me i'm just
kind of like i want to do one thing i'm not interested
in doing the other stuff well it used to be you
had to do two weapons and they would qualify
you based on the two weapons well they changed
the criteria for paris to where it was just one
i was like that's great because all i do is foil
so win that pan am games um and then i just kind
of went on about with the rest of the season
uh i think that might have been the same year
i was like 15th at world championships in south
korea and then fast forward to i want to say
it was may of 2024 i'm back at the pan am games
again in brazil now this same guy who told me
that i had really good prospects for making it
to the games for whatever reason he decided to
tell me that february so three months before
may came along oh by the way if this guy from
columb or sorry from argentina wins he'll take
your spot and you won't go to the games and i
was like why on earth would you tell me that
three months in advance just let me fence i'm
not worried about i don't want to think about
any of this stuff so for three months i got this
in the back of my head oh crap if this guy went
like i don't need to win this guy just can't
win so if he loses and like the round of eight
or the round of four, I'm fine. My spot's solidified.
So we get there, get back to Brazil. I'm like,
all right, let's go. I show up at like seven
in the morning thinking I'm going to fence at
nine. They're like, no, you're ranked number
one. You don't fence till two in the afternoon.
I was like, oh. So I had to like sit around all
day. So I get there. I'm just hanging out. And
then lo and behold, I'm looking at the bracket.
I'm seated number one. And the guy that cannot
win is seated number two. And I was like, oh
no, here we go. So I fenced my first match, win
that. Since my second match, when that who's
in the finals, me and the guy who's not supposed
to win, because if he does and I don't go to
the game. So it really boiled down to that particular
match. Like that was I knew when I was sitting
out in front of him, like, OK, if I lose this,
I don't go to the games. If I win this, I definitely
go to the games. And one minute in the score
was 13 -3. And I was like, oh, I was like, I
think I'm OK. So then I laxed up. He got like
four touches in a row. And then I was like, pow,
pow, ended it. And then that was it. And then
I was like, I was qualified for the games. Now,
Garrett, the guy I mentioned earlier, he was
kind of in he was kind of in this weird limbo
spot because he was in he was like on the cusp
of qualifying. But he was like, oh, my God, I'm
running out of time. I have to go back home.
I have to work. And I was like, call work. I
was like, you need to stay. Stay one more day,
because if you do well enough and this next event
will qualify as a team. lo and behold he stays
one more day ends up doing fantastic qualifies
and so he ends up going had he left he would
have never gone and we wouldn't have had the
team when we went there and then this kid noah
ended up doing fantastic ended up winning his
event and he also qualified so a bunch of us
three all three guys who ended up going were
all first time uh paralympian qualifiers so it
was actually really cool um that we got to go
so um then everything after that was kind of
just crazy We had to do press stuff, had to go
to OTC, and then doing opening ceremonies in
the games was crazy. I'd never seen so many people.
Macron was there. The president was there. He
came and gave a speech and talked to us and everything.
We got to compete in something called the Grand
Palais, which is a big venue just outside of
the Eiffel Tower. That's where they usually have
the CIP event, which is a big able -bodied fencing
event they usually have at that venue. So the
French were like super receptive. I talked to
a guy when I was in France. I said, how do you
feel about the games being here? Oh, I was like,
I hate it. He's like, but what I do love is how
clean everything is. So they cleaned up the whole
city everywhere you went. It was pristine. It
was great. And so I was I'm big into trading
patches with different police departments. And
I saw these guys ride by on these bikes. So I
walked up to him. I thought they were French.
and uh i was like hey excuse me the guy turns
around he's like hey and i was like oh they were
british guys it was four british cops so i was
like i was like hey you guys want to trade some
patches and they're like oh we don't have any
patches and this guy like pulled out this giant
bag he's like what do you need and like opens
it up and so we exchanged a bunch of patches
with them then i went competed uh i won my won
my first bout and then i lost my second one to
uh italian guy and then he lost to a chinese
guy and the chinese guy he ended up winning four
gold medals at that event and come to find out
they haven't lost since like 1996 or something
like that the chinese are very dominant in in
my sport then after the games we did the um closing
ceremonies once everything was all said and done
which was wild it was a giant soccer stadium
or football stadium for my european friends out
there and uh there were 70 80 000 people all
cheering it was pouring rain but it was still
really cool they had a huge show um then i come
back to the states And that was in August. And
then in September, was it September, October,
October, went out to D .C., met the president.
Actually, I have a picture with Hunter Biden,
which is really funny because he was I'm sitting
at the bleachers. I'm sitting next to Garrett.
And he's like, hey, who was that guy over there?
Because this guy came out behind the bleachers
and was like walking around like he disappeared.
And I was like, I don't know. And then he pops
back up again. I was like, oh, that's Hunter
Biden. That's that's. president biden's son did
he ask you for your email address so so uh president
biden ends up finishing like his speech or whatever
which was actually pretty funny he was pretty
funny he comes over start shaking everybody's
hand saying hi to everybody i saw merrick garland
sitting uh just in front of like where the president
was so i was going to go over and get a picture
with him because most of these people i was with
they don't really follow politics so they don't
know any of these people there was like 700 people
there watching and everything And I spotted Merrick
Garland right away. I was like, I'm going to
go try and get a picture. But by the time I got
up and walked over there, he was gone. So then
I started walking this little U because they
had us like walk in this U area where all these
people could say like, hello and congratulations
to all the Olympians and Paralympians that were
there. And lo and behold, Hunter's just kind
of like standing there, like looking around.
I was like, hey, Hunter. And he looks over like
kind of surprised that anybody said his name.
And I was like, let's get a picture. He was like,
OK. So I took a picture with him. And like that
was kind of like my claim to fame for for that
thing. And then. after that went back home and
then i've taken all of 2025 off i'm not competing
at all uh this year i've trained some but um
and i went back to washington uh washington state
where my coach lives and i've done some training
out there but my first competition is in february
in cincinnati and i'm just going because it's
close i don't typically fence nationally anymore
but it's right there it's a 45 -minute drive
from my house so i was like i gotta go And then,
like I said, Bradenton is the first World Cup.
That's kind of where I'll see where I'm at physically.
And then the first qualifying event is in Brazil,
I think in October next year. And then 2027 is
when everything ramps up for for L .A. So we'll
see how it goes. The nice thing is, I feel like
once you qualify once, the pressure of trying
to qualify again doesn't it doesn't feel the
same. Like it's not really there. Like I've done
this before. I've reached the pinnacle of like
the highest thing I can do in my sport. Now everything
else is kind of just like cruise control, really.
You said there's three types. Is it foil, epee,
and saber? Yep, those are them. All right. I
fenced for a heartbeat a long, long time ago.
I should remember if that's right. So just for
people listening, what are the differences between
the three types? Mostly it's, so there's a concept
of right -of -way. Easiest way to think about
it is like whose turn it is to attack. So in
foil and saber, just because I hit you first
doesn't necessarily mean it's my turn. So whoever
has right of way, that's what it'll qualify for.
In my event, the easiest way to think about what
target area is or where you can get hit is take
a t -shirt, cut the sleeves off. that's it you
can be hit anywhere that that shirt would cover
um down to your waist uh in saber anything from
the waist up is target including your head but
not your hands so everything from your wrist
all the way to your waist and your head um and
in that particular weapon it's not a point weapon
so you can be hit with the side of the blade
as opposed to just the tip and then in epa epa
is the easiest one to understand there are no
rules your whole body's target whether it's your
toe your head your fingertip doesn't matter the
whole objective behind that one is hit the person
do not get hit yourself that's pretty much it
which is why a lot of people when they're introduced
to fencing epa is the easiest to start with because
the concept of hit them don't get hit and they
can hit you anywhere is very easy to understand
where i start talking as soon as you start talking
right away the eyes go dead people get confused
they have no idea what you're talking about and
i'm like no it's like tag it's like when it's
your turn to attack you can and as long as they
don't take your blade and you don't miss They
don't take right of way from you. So as long
as you hit them, whether it's on target or off
target, you'll be fine. So it's a lot easier
if you learn foil or saber first to go to Epe.
If you learn Epe, you pretty much just stay in
Epe because you're just complicating stuff by
adding the right of way rule to it. But I've
fenced foil for 20 some odd years. So that's
just what I'm comfortable with. And you fenced
before the accident, didn't you? Yeah. I fenced
from 2000 to 2000. 16. Okay. So I got hurt. And
my whole point of doing that was I just wanted
to qualify for the veteran world team when I
turned 40, which would have been last year. Or
no, sorry, two years ago. Jesus, I'm almost,
I'll be 42 next year. So that was my main goal.
But after the accident, I stepped away from fencing.
for like two years and then my buddy lauren i
talked to uh who i used to fence with who actually
fences vet now like he would have been the guy
i would have been fencing with um he's like hey
you know you need to check out this pair of stuff
and i said okay you know i'll do it and that's
kind of how i got into it because i still really
liked fencing yeah it's different it's the best
way i can explain it is like boxing is a footwork
heavy sport people don't really realize how important
your footwork is fencing is the same way so like
imagine boxing you're in the dudes distance of
getting hit with his jab his hook and everything
else and you don't do anything with your feet
and that's pretty much fencing in a chair because
you're at a stationary distance you're not getting
away from the person you can't use any footwork
you just you have to be faster your timing has
to be better and you have to have better movement
from kind of like the waist up now i will say
two things have changed since paris one i don't
know who was upset by this but they some people
were not fond of a category fencers and b category
fencers fencing against each other in the team
event how it typically goes you'll have two a's
and one b um fence but the problem is the b fencers
don't have the kind of mobility that a fencers
do so if you're fencing and let's say the score
is 23 to 13 okay one team is down but their b
fencers going against their best a fencer well
now the score is 30 23. because the b can't get
away because they don't have the mobility to
move the way the a's do so the a just sits back
knowing the b can't hit them and then waits and
then hits them are they both in chairs different
types of mobility okay yeah you're both in chair
but bees typically have um they might have like
a spinal injury that really limits their ability
to move back and forth a's have the most flexibility
a's typically like myself maybe they're missing
a foot or maybe they're just missing a hand or
an arm but they have a complete mobility uh my
buddy pierce who fences for the the british team
i mean he can lean all the way back and like
put his head on the ground he's got hyper mobility
in his in his spine he's able to just get away
incredibly far um so it somebody was like this
isn't fair so they changed um how it's going
to be for la because of that and then another
thing that changed is the qualification criteria
or the classification criteria for who is allowed
to fence so we lost i think like eight fencers
got kicked out of para fencing they can't fence
anymore so and the guy who won four golds the
uh the chinese guy he got kicked out he's one
he's won like eight olympic gold or something
and now he can't he can't do the one sport that
he's done he just got booted and i was like wow
that's that's really crazy because of the level
of disability i i don't know they changed the
classification criteria i'm not sure i always
thought he had like um i thought i'd have to
look at him again i thought he had like a limb
deficiency where one leg was slightly shorter
than the other but they decided that's not enough
of an issue so he got the boot there was a french
girl um same thing happened with her i'm not
sure what her ailment was but they said it's
not enough she got booted um i know a hungarian
girl who got kicked out so And these were, these
were like high level people. The Hungarian girls
won gold medals at the Olympics before. So, and
they're getting kicked out. So you're taking
a sport that's already really small and has not
a lot of participants and making it even smaller
now because of the new classification criteria.
What's really annoying is, is I have to reclass,
even though like I'm missing a limb. So I clearly
it's not growing back. Nothing's going to change.
I was like, I have to reclass. Yeah. Just be
like, Hey. here it is uh okay you're good you're
class a right because i don't have any spinal
issues um there's also a c category also and
they're like the very extreme end of it they
have like they have like grip issues so a lot
of times you'll see their weapon will be taped
to their hand and they have like almost no mobility
you rarely see them but for the most part it's
just a a and b is just the two sub categories
of pair fencing a most mobility b a limited mobility
c almost no mobility stephen hogan level Yeah.
You're not doing, you're not doing anything.
I don't, I don't personally know any, uh, any
C level competitors. I've seen them though. Uh,
world championships, they'll have like a little
event for them and stuff. But again, when the
criteria is what it is that the pool of people
that you're going to fence is so small. Um, give
you an example of like why I don't compete nationally.
This event I'm going to in Cincinnati, there's
only five people. Most people, I wouldn't put
on my socks to compete in an event. If it was
in California, like Anaheim, I'm not going to
go. I'm going to spend $800 to $1 ,000 to compete
against five people and then fly home. No, I'm
not going to take off work for that. Luckily,
this is in Cincy. I can just drive down there,
compete, and I can come back. It's like jujitsu
now. Everyone I know does a tournament seems
to get a gold, a silver, or a bronze. I think
it's because they make the category so small,
from what I understand at least. almost everybody's
talking about everyone gets a trophy well it
seems like middle -aged men that start jiu -jitsu
always get a trophy because it did i've that's
i don't know how many hundreds are in in the
broad category but like you said for some some
way they're able to kind of narrow it down where
each of the the you know the um the brackets
seem to just have a small amount of people so
which is great i mean you don't want to be there
all freaking day but at the same time you know
it's funny how there's that whole participation
trophy conversation but if you look at jiu -jitsu
i mean i don't think they actually one of the
all the belts you know the age group for that
event yeah if you only have three people like
for instance in fencing they give out um in the
really big events they'll give out eight eight
placement medals um it's usually first second
and then they do two threes so two people get
bronze and then you do fifth sixth seventh and
eighth place um and the pair stuff they'll do
again they'll do four so gold silver and two
bronze we've only got five people uh four people
are gonna get medals by default you know um so
yeah if you go to an event there's only three
people everybody's getting a medal you don't
really you might as well flip a quarter you know
but you see that fairly often in the really really
small events um so that's why i like doing like
the international events you'll get a lot more
competition and it all depends on like where
the events are there's some places not a lot
of people are going to show up surprisingly america
is one of the places so yeah we're having that
world cup from bradenton um but something that
i was unaware of was how many of the fences from
other countries need visas in order to come to
the us and sometimes they just don't get approved
in time and they just can't get here or they're
expensive uh the first time i fenced in brazil
i needed a visa to get in there it was cheap
it was like 10 bucks um and the process took
like three days but it wasn't a hindrance to
me but i started noticing certain people from
certain countries just weren't coming we had
an event in dc and i was like where are all these
people like oh they couldn't get visas in time
and i was like oh i was like i didn't realize
that was the thing i thought you just came here
because you wanted to come here like no i was
like their country requires a visa i was like
oh okay so america being so far removed from
everything else is typically one of the harder
countries to come to uh but everybody goes to
Like Poland, that was one where Poland is not
super far from the far east. So the Japanese,
the Chinese, the Koreans will come. And then
everybody in Europe, you know, Poland's right
there. They're all going to show up. And then
it's really only a trip really for Americans.
But again, it's not an expensive place to go
to. So I'd spend more money going to Korea than
I would go to Poland. So everybody likes going
to that. It's usually a huge event. Amazing.
All right. Well, I want to throw some closing
questions at you before I let you go. The first
one I'd love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you'd love to recommend? It can be
related to our discussion today or completely
unrelated. If you just want some really good
old, some old school reading, Freedom in Chains
by James Bovard. I think I think it's his name.
Let me see. Let me see here. Oh, yeah, that's
it. That's a good book. And then also there's
another book. It's called Fiasco, The American
Military Adventure in Iraq by Thomas E. Ricks
is really good. That book kind of explains how
the U .S. military works with incredible military
precision when it comes to fighting conflicts.
but really struggled with the rebuilding process
because let's face it, the military is not for
rebuilding, right? But it talks about all the
different things that happened leading up to
basically what ended up being a disaster that
was Iraq and kind of how it happened. So that
was a fascinating book to read. I read that in
grad school though, probably, oh, 12, 17 years
ago, a long time ago, but very good books. Yeah,
I know. Was it Halliburton made a crap load of
money from that? Oh, a ton, ton, ton. Cause when,
when you go in and you do the stuff and then
you're like, Hey, this needs rebuilt. I have
a company that rebuilds stuff. Oh, we'll contract
you and we'll pay you 10 times what it costs
because we all know that government just like,
you know, you get a government hammer, it's a
hundred dollar hammer, not a $3 Stanley hammer.
You know, government nail is a $50 nail, not
a, you know, 5 cent nail. So yeah, that doesn't,
that doesn't surprise me, but all kinds of stuff
like that, that happens all the time. Yeah. And
again, we're talking about COVID. I think war
is not the one we need to have a discussion.
Okay. You know, how do we find ourselves in this?
Did anyone benefit from it that may have maybe
pushed us into this in the first place? How do
we stop that happening again? A hundred percent.
Yeah. All right. What about films, documentaries,
TV shows? Oh, well, the greatest TV show of all
time is The Wire. You never convinced me otherwise.
I just watched it. I don't know if you recommended
it when we spoke before, but it had come up a
few times and I finally binge watched the, what
is it, five seasons? I swear, I don't normally
binge watch. I binge watched the shit out of
that show. It was phenomenal. So now that you
have, wait a year, go back and rewatch it and
you'll catch stuff that like you completely missed
for the longest time. It wasn't until the third
or fourth time I rewatched it that I started
to appreciate the second season. Because after
the first season, you're like, this is so great.
The second season, you're like, I don't care
about these docs or the Greeks or none of that.
And then you realize how important a lot of the
stuff they cover in that series is. Another great
show. So my top three are going to be The Wire,
Bosch, and Billions. Damian Lewis and Billions
and Paul Giamatti are fantastic. Did you ever
see Billions? I didn't watch that one, no. Okay.
So Billions is about an SDNY attorney. who just
cannot stand hedge fund guys. He thinks they're
all corrupt. They're all just stealing all types
of money. Damian Lewis runs a giant company called
Axe Capital. And it's literally, there's no action.
It's all dialogue. And it's fantastically written.
One of those shows where it's good from the first
episode to like the last one, like you'll be
satisfied with like everything that happens in
it. And then let's see, what's another good show?
Have you watched Landman at all? I haven't. We're
watching Yellowstone at the moment. But that's
what I actually need to watch, because I guess
another show came out called U .S. Marshals.
My wife was talking about it yesterday. And she's
like, oh, you have to watch Yellowstone first,
because the guy who's in U .S. Marshals is one
of the guys from Yellowstone. Taylor Sheridan,
he's been killing it with his shows. I've liked
pretty much everything I've watched of his. I
like the way that he writes. I did not know that
he actually wrote Sicario. It was directed by
by Denis Villeneuve. But he Taylor Sheridan actually
wrote it. And I really like. how that whole story
kind of kind of pans out um what else is really
good that we watched recently um i can't think
of anything else off the task was pretty good
on hbo that's only one season of that that was
that was very entertaining i liked what they
did with that show um you asked me about what
shows and movies you said movies also movies
documentaries any of those You know what? Predator
Badlands was really good. I was surprised. I'm
gonna let my kids watch it when they come out.
It was more of like an adventure slash coming
of age film than it really was like a horror
movie. Nothing about it is scary. There's a guy,
he's underestimated by his people. He goes off
to try and prove that he's worthy and goes on
an adventure trying to do it. I was like, oh,
this is classic. So Disney honestly didn't mess
it up. I was really satisfied with it. I would
definitely watch it again. And I think my kids
will be really entertained by it. And they got
away with the... the pg -13 rating because no
people die in it you got androids and you got
crazy alien creatures and that's it no no people
are harmed so and it's mostly subtitles you have
to get used to that because they the predator
guy speaking his own language the whole time
um but very very entertaining film um and i'm
sure you saw top gun maverick right yes i did
oh fantastic like that movie through and through
it was like this is how a movie should be you
know we got it we got a problem we got an enemy
How do we resolve this? Here we go. And nothing
else was put into it. I was like, that's great.
Cause you know, we don't know who the enemy was.
Is it China? Is it Russia? No, it doesn't matter.
It's an enemy. Right. And that's it. And here's,
here's what we got to do. So I was, I was a big
fan of it. I was going to segue. I just took
a breath to say something and I just totally
brain fog. Give me one second. Hold on. Well,
usually you ask me like, who else should you
interview? I was going to, but I was going to
have to, how do I make that flow? Yeah, I really
liked Top Gun. The only thing I found was the
whole piano thing. Maybe they could have come
up with a slightly different way of doing it
rather than the exact same thing as his dad,
but that was my only criticism. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right, well, next question. Is there a person
that you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military, and associated professions of the world?
Oh, wow, that specifically? I mean, it could
be anyone. The guests are so diverse on here,
but... Oh, well, then Larry Sharp. Do you know
who he is? It doesn't ring a bell. Please educate
me. He is a libertarian guy in New York City.
I'm sure he'll be able to address issues that
are concerning, anything like police fire, anything
like that related. But the man has fascinating
ideas when it comes to like education, fixing
the education system and just certain things
he would have liked to have done in New York.
He gets no recognition because in a place like
New York, unless you got a D by your name, you're
really going to have a really hard time there.
He never gets more than like point zero seven
percent of the vote because I think most people
don't know who he is. But he was on the I found
out about him because he was on a Joe Rogan podcast.
And I thought he was just a really interesting
guy. His ideas were kind of interesting. Nothing
really. new per se because he's siphoning off
a lot of the ideas of um kind of how they do
school in in europe like by the time you hit
your 10th year you kind of get to decide do i
want to go college trajectory or do i want to
go like occupation trajectory and then like at
that point is when you start like okay i'm going
to start focusing on i want to be a welder this
is what i'm going to do from from here on out
so he has like ideas very similar to that um
now for somebody to talk to the our kind of profession
man you'd have to find, I don't think there's
any like commissioners or mayors or anybody I
can think of who's done such a, such a fascinating
or good job that it would warrant them. You spending
your time talking to them. You know what I mean?
Like a retired police chief or something really
cool. Hell, you know what? Get ahold of my old,
get ahold of my old major, major Weisman, the
guy who's in Bradenton. He's the assistant chief
down there. If you, just text me and I'll get
ahold of him and ask him if he's interested in
talking to you. Cause I mean, he's done police
work for years and I really liked him and I'm
sure. because he was more command staff level
maybe he can answer some of those questions that
we can about the inner workings of like how that
happens where yeah it's easy for us to sit here
and say oh blah blah this is happening and then
he can explain the why of like well here's why
it's difficult to do this and there's some stuff
maybe we're unaware of that's happening on the
back and well you know you got to get approval
from such and such people in the state so on
and so on because i can give you a small example
really quickly when you get habitual runaways
right every time a kid right if a kid runs away
on monday Comes back on Tuesday and then runs
away again on Tuesday, comes back on Wednesday.
Every time they do it, you have to resubmit the
same information to our record system that puts
the kids into the Leeds database. So that way,
if a cop runs across them in Kentucky, it'll
show up as missing. Well, every time that happens,
even though nothing has changed, the kid's height,
weight, hair, eye color. um doesn't change you
have to resubmit that information every time
so i was like why don't we do it where if we
have a habitual and we know he leaves monday
he comes back monday he leaves tuesday so on
and so on and so on why don't we just leave that
information in for like a week so monday through
friday and if it doesn't change then we go we
go back and change what does well it's because
it's a state thing The state requires you to
do that every time. And until that law is changed,
you don't have a choice to do that. So there's
no like instant thing we can put in like, Hey,
here's the person that ran away. Oh, we have
all their information. Boom. They enter it. They
send it off. No, it has to be submitted every
single time because we have to fill out these
like dental forms for them. Even if it doesn't
change, even if they don't even have a dentist,
because a lot of times you're running into kids
at like group homes and stuff. They don't know
any of that stuff. It's like, nah, you know,
the kid's name is Adam Smith. He's this tall.
He weighs this much. His hair and eyes this.
This is what he was wearing. Oh, okay. What's
his dental information? Oh, we don't know. Okay.
Well, then I don't have to fill out that piece
of paper, but I still need to send it in saying
they don't have this information because it's
required by the state. So it might be something
like that that they're running into. So I think
he would be a good person to try and talk to.
Brilliant. I appreciate it. All right. Well,
then the last question before we make sure everyone
knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress?
I go to the gym or I play a lot of heavy metal
music. And I mean, like, listen to it. Like,
actually, I write it. So I play guitar and I
shoot. So I recently as I'm going to do the fencing
stuff, you know, I'm going to try and go to L
.A., but I'm working on transitioning into USPSA
competition shooting. So I do a lot of competition
shooting now, which is loads and loads of fun.
Even just doing dry fire practice in my room
or going out and physically shooting because
it's way different. when because it's a competition
setting there's one thing to like go out to a
field you know put a couple magazines in a gun
and just shoot aimlessly with no purpose you're
just wasting money at that point in time but
if you're like hey i want you to engage these
three targets at at this distance at this time
right to you know establish whatever you make
up your criteria that's when it becomes fun then
it's a whole process okay it's like well this
is my closest target so i'm going to engage this
one last you don't want to engage that one first
because you don't even have to look at it you
start far you work your way in as opposed to
starting close and working your way out because
when you talk to the grand masters in the game
they're thinking about like the position of their
feet, you know, stuff that doesn't even occur
to me. No, they're like, when you enter, when
you enter in this section, you want your foot
facing this direction. So that way all you have
to do is pivot at your waist and you don't actually
have to shift your feet. Cause that slows down
your time. And like the, the way that they think
about, it's kind of how I think about fencing.
like i see more than just two guys with metal
sticks clinging them together i'm seeing like
all the action happening like that's how the
grandmasters are in shooting so i started getting
into that because one i already like shooting
firearms and two it's just a lot of fun and i'm
a member of a club that's not too far from my
house right now anyway where they they do that
kind of shooting on a regular basis and i might
try and get into jiu jitsu too because i just
like doing physical stuff with that you know
even though we were closing out with that exposure
to a higher level of firearms Talk to me about
your perspective on the standards in your profession
when it comes to not only qualification range
shots, but actual tactical weapons training and
then even integrating the fitness on that side.
So the tactical aspect, I really can't. Really
can't elaborate much on that just because I don't
do a lot. I guess when I think tactics, I'm thinking
like SWAT, how they enter stuff, it's like that.
But if you just mean like standard practice that
police use in order to engage on individuals,
I would like to see one. Qualification standards
are a joke. That is what it is. I could give
you a gun right now if you never shot in your
whole life and you could pass the quals. I'll
give you 10 minutes. No problem. You'd be able
to pass them. Because for your non -shooters,
you don't have any training scars. So you're
going to do exactly what I say, exactly how I
say to do it, because that's what I told you
to do. Whereas if you're somebody who shot for
20 years and I'm like, hey, do this. Well, this
is the way that I do it. This is how I'm going
to do it. Then you find out you're not passing
the test. Right. So the standards are they are
so easy. I remember one time just for fun, I
did the whole test with just headshots and I
passed it flying colors. It's very, very easy.
But again, there's a reason why they're like
that, because you want everybody that you're
bringing through that process to qualify. Well,
then the question that I would ask is, is it
more important to be accurate with the shots
you put down range? Or is it more important to
qualify shooting at a paper target that's not
going to be shooting back at you? Because what
you see time and time again, and all the statistics
and everything, the average cop shoots like 11
rounds and like one hits. Right. Because it's
just you're just shooting and all the fundamentals
that you're taught and all that because you only
spend five weeks doing it in the academy. They
kind of just go out the window because that's
you're not experiencing that stress when you're
just standing stationary shooting at paper. It's
very easy. It's calm. There's there's nothing
about that that is stressful. So we don't know
and we don't have an indicator of how you're
going to behave in a high stress situation where
somebody is actually shooting back at you. Now,
what you will see on some of those videos where
officers, especially guys who have like a military
background, who have been in that situation,
man, they just go to work immediately. No problems.
They just, they engage, put the target down on
the radio, being clear as they can about it.
You know, shots fired, suspect down, going to
need a medic and the person needs assistance.
I'm going to start, you know, life -saving care
or whatever at that point in time. And they just
go about it. And then conversely, the people
who are unfamiliar with that. You see panic,
you see magazines dropping out, you see guns
with their slides racked back because they're
panicking in that moment, which is fine. That's
going to happen. You never know how you're going
to react until you're in that situation. But
what I would love to see are getting your initial
training and your shooting to pass your qual,
sure, but then a shit ton more of advanced training
beyond that. high stress, like high, high stress.
Oh, great. Something simple. We want you to gauge
your target at 10 yards, three shots, eight seconds.
That is a lifetime. I can do that with my right
hand with my wrong eye open, right? Okay. Let's
take that same scenario. Do the same thing. You've
got one second. That's where you'll see the wheels
fall off. And that's the point that you work
from. Then you start adding, okay, 1 .5 seconds.
Okay. Two seconds. Oh. you can do this in 1 .87
seconds well now let's reduce it and let's keep
going to where you can get it no problem because
if you can get three rounds off on target in
one second nine times out of ten you should win
that gunfight right but if you can't if you can't
do it in in that time period because all because
your spread is is missing the target you got
a ground you got a shot in the ground and ground
in the air one on paper but not on the target
that's not going to do you any good in person
not to mention your objects are moving a lot
of the time Very rarely you're shooting somebody
who's just standing like right in front of you.
So, but a lot of times departments have a hard
time doing that. It's a budget issue. You know,
if you have a department of 500 people and you
want to have a high intensity training on that,
and it's going to cost a hundred rounds per person,
do the math. You're going to spend a ton of money
doing that. Plus you got to get people off the
street or people in on their day off and you
guys are paying for overtime. So, and you can
see how the issue compounds itself. So what I
would do if I was in charge, I would introduce
it as, Hey, we've got this high stress, high
level. high tactical program we want to do who
are the officers interested in doing this some
of these this might occur on some of your days
off we can get you comp time for that we have
a limited space we're going to do 100 officers
or so let's say over the course of the next six
months who's who's interested and let them do
it because you know at the end of the day you're
going to have people who maybe you're on the
cusp of retirement not really for you you're
thinking about your house in florida that you're
building you're not going to be interested in
that then you got your new officers who can't
qualify for it don't have enough time on the
department then you got that mid -tier guy with
two years to 10 years on, that's right up their
alley, right? Hey, put me in. Can I do this?
And I'm like, yeah, no problem. We'll get you
in. And then you get that training in there.
And then they can spread word. Hey, this training
is fantastic. We learned how to move and shoot
really well. We learned how to engage multiple
targets, really small targets at up close, far
distances, so on and so on. And that's essentially
what USPSA does. It teaches you how to engage
varying targets at different speeds, different
distances. I don't see anything that would make
that detrimental to police work. Brilliant. Yeah,
I hear this over and over again, between the
fitness and the jiu -jitsu literally being a
deterrent for a lot of hands -on events in the
first place. And then, you know, my goodness,
my brain's just turned off. Lieutenant Colonel
Dave Grossman. There we go. Oh, yeah. Let me
just write that down. I'll say that again. And
then listening to the lieutenant. And then listening
to Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman talking about,
you know, it's literally like a martial art with
a weapon and some of the stories of these great
marksmen truly saving lives in some of these
events. I mean, having that bar, we're circling
around to the beginning of this conversation
again. When the bar is set high, the chances
of a law enforcement officer being killed, but
also the wrong person being killed, whether it's
in a hostage situation, whether it's, as you
alluded to, one of those stray billets like we
had in an event not too long ago. I think it
was in a Walgreens and they shot through. end
up killing someone else in the changing room,
I think. I mean, the better marksman we can get,
anyone who carries a gun for a living, it just
makes perfect sense. But, you know, we save lives
and you can even take, like I can with drugs,
even take lives. So we have to be held at the
highest level, but that also creates needs. You
have to have an environment that forges that
performance and you can't overwork, understaff,
you know, sleep deprive people that make these
life and death decisions. Yeah. And I think lastly,
the one thing that we're really seeing, and this
is why, you know, yeah, it's great to have additional
firearms training, but we really need to work
more on going hands on with people. A lot of
people become really reliant on their tools.
If you tase a guy and he's walking towards you
and it does nothing, that's a scary feeling because
you're like, oh, this thing that I thought was
supposed to work, that really only has like a
33 % effective rate, didn't do what it's supposed
to. and you're scared to go hands on, grab them,
grab a hold of them, figure out what their worth
is. Is this person going to fight? Did they tense
up? Or did I just completely take all the air
out of their balloon and now I've got complete
control of this individual? Well, you won't know
that until you put a hand on them. But you see
a lot of times, a lot of officers, and I've seen
it in different videos, are really timid about.
going to hands -on because they're worried about
either stuff on the back end you know what's
what's going to happen if i do this well if you're
tasting somebody it's a use of force regardless
it's no different than if you grabbed him and
you hit him a couple times um but i think being
able to go hands -on really has to do with your
own kind of like confidence like if you're well
trained and what to do once you grab somebody
then you'll be fine it's like i always tell people
who are really fast runners that's great that
you're fast you caught the dude what are you
gonna do when you get them If you're really bad
at being hands -on, he's just going to work you.
It's like, great, you caught him, but he's going
to throw you off and he's going to keep taking
off on you. But if you're really confident in
your ability to control yourself, not panic when
somebody gets on top of you and you know how
to work through that problem, you'll be fine
out there and you won't be reluctant to go hands
-on with somebody. I've seen officers who are
great with that. One, they're very confident.
and their ability to do their job. They've got
great command presence because they know if things
go sideways and the guy does try something, they
know how to handle themselves and they're not
worried about it. But if you are and you go out
there and you are timid or you are concerned,
you'll go to your taser and it doesn't work.
Your pepper's not working because you're fighting
somebody who's like high on PCP and meth and
they're on like an eight day bender and that
stuff's not going to work and you don't go hands
on it. Well, you're not going to shoot them.
You don't have grounds for that. And if you do,
well, then you're looking at a massive. either
a lawsuit or a possible you know prison term
for that because you took it to that level yeah
the guy was in maybe like an induced psychosis
and he was like beating up a fence but he wasn't
aggressive towards you he was aggressive but
not towards you and then you shot him as a result
of that you have a hard time explaining that
to a jury you know what i mean oh i tried my
taser didn't work and he kept beating up the
fence i pepper sprayed him and he kept beating
up the fence like any time you turn around to
like do anything to you well no what would you
shoot him for you know So, but if you're, if
you're confident on like knowing what to do,
you got two people there, one goes low, one goes
high, get them on the ground, get control of
them, get them in handcuffs and then you're good.
Um, but again, that's going to boil down to,
okay, can we get people in for this more advanced
training? Cause you get very, you know, get basic
level training. And if you got that in the first
two months of a six month academy, then you hit
the street, you're off probation. And the next
time you are in any physical altercation is three
years. From the time you learn that in the academy,
are you expected to retain that? Not unless you
willingly want to do it and you participate in
a gym that does hand -to -hand stuff on a regular
basis. No, you're going to go back to what you
know. And the only thing you know was the one
time you got in a fight with little Timmy on
the recess playground when you were in third
grade. And that's what you go back to. And he
finds out, oh, it doesn't work against this guy
who's 100 pounds more than me. And he's drunk
out of his mind. I'm trying to get him out of
the car. That's why you got fired as a teacher
though, fighting the third grader. but that's
what i would like to see just more more firearms
more more hands -on stuff because there's at
no point in time where that's not beneficial
so a lot of times when i sign up for classes
that's just how i explain it it's like there's
there's no net negative reason to get more firearms
training or to get more physical hands -on training
it's all beneficial to the job 100 i'll even
take a class that has to do with um uh report
writing or just talking to people in general
communications You know, that's all a net benefit
to the job. Absolutely. Well, for people listening,
I know where to find you because you and I are
what people call meme buddies. So for anyone
else, where are the best places to find you online?
I mean, you can find me on Facebook, just like
it's my name, just Byron Branch, pretty generic.
That's going to be all pretty much just fencing
related stuff. Had to make it for... media publicity
and stuff like that for the sport um and then
like it's byron branches like my uh public instagram
account where anybody can like follow me or ask
me any questions about anything i just got to
make sure they spell my name right you know because
most people spell brian and then never find me
but that's why it's always i'm always like no
it's byron like that's like the joke behind like
how i got the uh the username brilliant Well,
I want to thank you. It's been such a great conversation.
I really didn't have anything written down what
we're going to talk about. And we've gone through
two and a quarter hours of conversation now.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time again and coming back on the Behind
the Shield podcast. Sure.