WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.799 This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:05.879 first staffing software to be truly firefighter 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:09.240 proof. Now you may be wondering why I have software 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:11.820 as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical 00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:15.000 and mental health of the first responders, and 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.420 I will tell you exactly why. For the first time, 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:21.699 this is a staffing platform that also is able 00:00:21.699 --> 00:00:25.140 to integrate wellness information through core 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:29.120 load tracking, exposures, and wearables integration. 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:33.140 Now, of course, StationWise focuses on staffing 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:36.439 and allows you to manage staffing, choose vacation 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:40.679 picks, put in rules for leave and trades, and 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:43.600 even deploying strike teams. But through the 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:46.759 latest programming in AI automation, they have 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.640 streamlined this process to free up battalion 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.159 chiefs so they can focus on what they're supposed 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:54.899 to be doing on the operational side and the fire 00:00:54.899 --> 00:00:58.009 ground. Now, StationWise is also able to monitor 00:00:58.009 --> 00:01:00.469 not only how many calls we've responded to in 00:01:00.469 --> 00:01:03.210 a shift, but the duration of the call, therefore 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:06.530 the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring 00:01:06.530 --> 00:01:09.129 the sleep deprivation that degrades our health 00:01:09.129 --> 00:01:12.069 and performance. It's accessible not only through 00:01:12.069 --> 00:01:15.030 the computer, but also on Apple and Android devices, 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:17.989 meaning that you can access it not only within 00:01:17.989 --> 00:01:21.450 the station itself, but outside as well. Now, 00:01:21.469 --> 00:01:23.730 one of the most powerful features of StationWise, 00:01:23.790 --> 00:01:26.609 in my opinion, is the ability to run reports. 00:01:27.069 --> 00:01:30.590 Therefore, for example, be able to see just how 00:01:30.590 --> 00:01:33.629 much money is being used on overtime that could 00:01:33.629 --> 00:01:36.569 actually be front -loaded for proactive staffing, 00:01:36.890 --> 00:01:39.930 as well as setting alarms knowing when you are 00:01:39.930 --> 00:01:43.090 hitting overtime parameters. And another important 00:01:43.090 --> 00:01:46.129 feature is the integration of other programs 00:01:46.129 --> 00:01:49.209 and software for payroll, training, reports, 00:01:49.489 --> 00:01:52.920 etc. Now, StationWise is trusted by numerous 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.459 agencies in California, Texas, and Idaho. And 00:01:57.459 --> 00:02:00.060 if you want to hear the full story from the founder, 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.439 who he himself is a son of a firefighter, listen 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:08.680 to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.979 want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise 00:02:11.979 --> 00:02:16.099 .com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:18.159 As always, my name is James Geering, and this 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:20.039 week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:23.560 show, Doctor of Physical Therapy and Air Force 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:28.280 Reservist, Dr. Nick Detrick. Now, in this conversation, 00:02:28.379 --> 00:02:31.240 we discuss a host of topics, from Nick's journey 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:34.199 into the world of medicine, the nuances between 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:36.960 regular airmen and the Special Warfare Human 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.939 Performance Squadron, his introduction to the 00:02:39.939 --> 00:02:43.800 fire service, injury screening, fitness standards, 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:48.599 rehabilitation, the power of sleep, and so much 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:51.759 more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.599 as I say every week, please just take a moment. 00:02:55.099 --> 00:02:58.099 Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:58.099 --> 00:03:01.719 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:03:02.349 --> 00:03:05.590 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:08.349 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:03:08.349 --> 00:03:11.949 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:03:11.949 --> 00:03:16.830 almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:03:16.830 --> 00:03:20.030 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:03:20.030 --> 00:03:23.270 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:03:23.270 --> 00:03:26.189 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:03:26.810 --> 00:03:30.949 So with that being said, I introduce to you Dr. 00:03:31.129 --> 00:03:53.990 Nick. Detrick, enjoy. Well, Nick, I want to start 00:03:53.990 --> 00:03:56.810 by saying thank you so much for taking the time 00:03:56.810 --> 00:03:59.110 and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today. 00:03:59.900 --> 00:04:02.180 Thank you for having me. I've been a listener 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:04.620 for a while, so it's an honor to be here. Well, 00:04:04.699 --> 00:04:07.439 thank you so much for coming on. Very first question, 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:09.340 where on planet Earth are we finding you today? 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.919 I'm at my house in Folsom, California, which 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.099 is a suburb a little bit outside of Sacramento. 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.800 Brilliant. Well, I would love to start the very 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:19.420 beginning of your timeline because you've got 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:21.939 a very interesting journey through medicine and 00:04:21.939 --> 00:04:23.939 then the military and the first responder professions. 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:27.300 Tell me where you were born and tell me a little 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:29.300 bit about your family dynamic, what your parents 00:04:29.300 --> 00:04:33.459 did, how many siblings. I was born in Mountain 00:04:33.459 --> 00:04:36.120 View, California, which is in kind of south of 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:39.939 San Francisco. And then very early, like before 00:04:39.939 --> 00:04:41.779 I was a year old, my family moved out to the 00:04:41.779 --> 00:04:44.980 Sacramento area. They actually competed in water 00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:48.879 skiing. So there's a country town and there's 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:51.699 a lake out there. And so we relocated. I'm the 00:04:51.699 --> 00:04:56.209 youngest of three boys. And then my mom was a 00:04:56.209 --> 00:04:58.410 real estate agent most of my life. And then my 00:04:58.410 --> 00:05:01.269 dad worked for Pacific Gas and Electric, just 00:05:01.269 --> 00:05:05.529 kind of did a lot of odd jobs at PG &E. Do they 00:05:05.529 --> 00:05:10.490 still ski? They do. Not as much. They actually 00:05:10.490 --> 00:05:13.850 just moved away from the lake last year. So it 00:05:13.850 --> 00:05:17.750 was like from 91 to 2024 that they were living 00:05:17.750 --> 00:05:20.250 there and still competing. And then my middle 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:22.529 brother still competes at a very high level. 00:05:22.910 --> 00:05:24.629 It's like travels all over the world for it. 00:05:24.889 --> 00:05:27.209 I think if I'm not mistaken, Florida was a big 00:05:27.209 --> 00:05:30.610 hub for skiing too. We used to have, what's it 00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:33.649 called? It's Legoland now. It was something gardens. 00:05:34.269 --> 00:05:37.250 But anyway, that was where all the skiing competitions 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:40.810 used to be down here. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. We used 00:05:40.810 --> 00:05:42.850 to travel out there. I feel like all of our vacations 00:05:42.850 --> 00:05:45.709 growing up would be either out to Florida or 00:05:45.709 --> 00:05:48.709 central California, like Barstow Bakersfield. 00:05:49.089 --> 00:05:50.810 There's a couple of lakes out there. So yeah, 00:05:50.870 --> 00:05:53.279 a lot of water ski tournaments. Absolutely. It's 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:54.759 Cypress Gardens, as it was called. And there's 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.220 still a nod to that now. If you go to the Lego 00:05:57.220 --> 00:06:00.740 Land in Florida, there's a Lego water ski stunt 00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:04.920 show. So they kept that attachment. All right. 00:06:04.980 --> 00:06:07.079 Well, then what about sports and exercise? What 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:10.319 were you playing and doing as a young boy? Yeah, 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:14.439 so I dabbled in water skiing. I wouldn't say 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:17.699 I got into it as much as my family did, but my 00:06:17.699 --> 00:06:20.220 big things were soccer, baseball, basketball, 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.939 like anything I could do. getting active so we 00:06:22.939 --> 00:06:25.819 played competitive soccer and baseball until 00:06:25.819 --> 00:06:30.480 about middle school and then again lived in a 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.480 small town football was a big thing like Friday 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.040 Night Lights so I transitioned to football in 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.420 seventh grade and then continued with that all 00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:40.139 the way through high school. Did you yourself 00:06:40.139 --> 00:06:43.600 have any injuries as a youth athlete? Nothing 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.100 significant as a as a youth I had a couple like 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:49.759 little hip flexor things back injuries that sort 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:52.660 of stuff but nothing significant, fortunately. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.860 My biggest injury was actually in college. So 00:06:56.860 --> 00:07:01.399 I was trying to hang up my athletic jersey and 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.600 retire and still wanted to do stuff as I got 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:05.779 into college. So I joined the water skiing wakeboard 00:07:05.779 --> 00:07:09.379 team. And again, growing up around the sport, 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.939 being a young, was I 18 at the time, just tried 00:07:12.939 --> 00:07:15.500 to do something too big too soon. So one of the 00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:17.860 events is you go off a five foot ramp for distance. 00:07:19.980 --> 00:07:22.660 yeah just wasn't a smart young man and ended 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:24.920 up in a wheelchair for a couple of months uh 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:28.220 so that was kind of that was the biggest injury 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:31.540 that i had to deal with as a young athlete what 00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:36.000 was the actual injury uh so i look back on it 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:37.860 the recovery should not have been that bad they 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:41.620 thought i tore my acl and then i also tore i 00:07:41.620 --> 00:07:44.339 fractured like the upper part of my tibia and 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:47.290 tore two ligaments in my ankle so essentially 00:07:47.290 --> 00:07:49.589 these are like long skis i think they're probably 00:07:49.589 --> 00:07:52.009 like six seven feet and i just stuck the tip 00:07:52.009 --> 00:07:55.910 into the water and twisted but because they thought 00:07:55.910 --> 00:07:59.470 i tore my acl and have you having lived in california 00:07:59.470 --> 00:08:02.389 kaiser has like it's a separate entity from norcal 00:08:02.389 --> 00:08:06.050 to socal so i was a norcal patient but socal 00:08:06.050 --> 00:08:09.910 resident where i was going to school so i just 00:08:09.910 --> 00:08:13.220 had to figure out how to rehab on my own And 00:08:13.220 --> 00:08:15.620 that's what really delayed the healing, unfortunately. 00:08:15.980 --> 00:08:18.939 But it was a good experience. So while we're 00:08:18.939 --> 00:08:20.819 on the subject of youth athletes, this is something 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:23.639 that I like to talk to as many people as I can 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:25.420 because I think it's an important message for 00:08:25.420 --> 00:08:28.720 the parents out there primarily. When I first 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.800 moved to America, and I've told this story many 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:35.100 times on here now. i after a couple years i kept 00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:37.600 me in what i would term as uncle ricos and i 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:40.879 mean that affectionately but these now deconditioned 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:43.620 men either side of 30 ish that told me these 00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:45.500 i could have would have should have stories of 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:48.580 football baseball basketball etc and they were 00:08:48.580 --> 00:08:51.100 talking about mcls and slap tears and all these 00:08:51.100 --> 00:08:54.500 different injuries at you know 15 16 17 18 years 00:08:54.500 --> 00:08:58.159 old and My question after a while was, what are 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:00.340 we doing to these kids? And then I become a parent 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:02.340 and I'm more exposed to travel ball and some 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:03.779 of these other things. My son didn't do that, 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:08.799 but this kind of concept. And I realized that 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:11.460 it seemed like in a lot of places, sometimes 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:15.100 the wellness and longevity of the youth athlete 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:18.620 became less important than the performance. So 00:09:18.620 --> 00:09:20.600 that school, that college could win at that moment. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.460 What is your perspective of that in the American 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:28.299 youth sports environment? Yeah, I think we not 00:09:28.299 --> 00:09:31.179 only the whole Uncle Rico thing, which is awesome, 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:32.700 like we hear that in the fire department all 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:36.639 the time, too, but is I'm going to live vicariously 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.740 through my kid. And so my kid is going to be 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:40.259 the best. My kid's going to get scholarships. 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.899 I saw it a lot more in Southern California with 00:09:43.899 --> 00:09:47.100 kids getting specialized in the sport super early, 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:50.220 baseball being one of the worst. Right. And yes, 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.000 you have pitch counts, but if you're on three 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:55.149 different teams. They're all doing the same pitch 00:09:55.149 --> 00:09:57.889 count. Are you triple it? We would see some parents 00:09:57.889 --> 00:10:00.669 who are voluntarily doing Tommy John surgery 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:04.070 on their young athletes thinking, well, they're 00:10:04.070 --> 00:10:06.309 going to need it eventually and they heal better 00:10:06.309 --> 00:10:10.110 when they're younger, so let's just do this beforehand, 00:10:10.309 --> 00:10:12.370 which is wild to think about. Why are you doing 00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:15.690 a voluntary surgery like that versus... I think 00:10:15.690 --> 00:10:19.210 one thing I look back retrospectively, my parents 00:10:19.210 --> 00:10:23.350 had us in a lot of sports. But we had soccer 00:10:23.350 --> 00:10:25.450 season. We had baseball season. We would do a 00:10:25.450 --> 00:10:28.169 variety of things. You'd have to pick up and 00:10:28.169 --> 00:10:31.429 learn and roll with the seasons, which I think 00:10:31.429 --> 00:10:34.549 is when we look at the best athletes, the people 00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:37.490 who are in the NFL, in the NBA, like you look, 00:10:37.549 --> 00:10:39.809 they all played multiple sports. Very few of 00:10:39.809 --> 00:10:44.129 them started specializing at age 9, 10. Yeah, 00:10:44.169 --> 00:10:45.909 some people are just really good athletes and 00:10:45.909 --> 00:10:48.159 they're going to make it there. Well, I think 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:49.799 this is an important thing for people to hear 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.000 because this is exactly what I get told over 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:54.059 and over and over again. I'm not the expert. 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.399 You know, I'm just a weekend warrior athlete 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.519 that, you know, still trying not to die in my 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:03.080 50s. But yeah, I mean, you have these camps and 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.659 these travel balls and even the travel ball thing. 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:08.659 I mean, the concept that your child's team is 00:11:08.659 --> 00:11:11.360 so good that they need to travel 500 miles to 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.539 play someone that's going to match them. I mean, 00:11:13.580 --> 00:11:16.059 your child isn't. They're not that good. If they 00:11:16.059 --> 00:11:17.940 are, they would be in, like you said, the grooming 00:11:17.940 --> 00:11:21.259 kind of path to be a professional athlete. But 00:11:21.259 --> 00:11:24.240 the multi -sport athlete, which is how we've 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:26.139 played sports since the beginning of time until 00:11:26.139 --> 00:11:29.299 very recently. does seem to forge you know physical 00:11:29.299 --> 00:11:31.919 resilience but also mental resilience and avoid 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:36.279 burnout from this yeah i think one thing too 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.519 that it's not just from the parent standpoint 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:42.399 but one of my experiences with coaches is yes 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:44.639 they may encourage you to be in multiple sports 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.399 but then if you're not playing year round you're 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:49.620 not with them year round then you lose your spot 00:11:49.620 --> 00:11:52.759 and so then you get pressured into well if i 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:54.480 take six months off because this is good for 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.409 my body good for my overall development But I 00:11:57.409 --> 00:12:01.529 can't play next year. Now you start siloing teams. 00:12:01.750 --> 00:12:04.789 And so, yeah, it's a whole system issue, unfortunately. 00:12:05.990 --> 00:12:07.809 Well, the other side of the coin, I think, is 00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:11.990 really worth talking about is when I was in the 00:12:11.990 --> 00:12:14.230 UK, which, again, was a little while ago now. 00:12:14.330 --> 00:12:17.409 But when we played sports in school, we just 00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:19.190 played sports. We didn't have weight rooms or 00:12:19.190 --> 00:12:21.169 any of that kind of stuff, which there's absolutely 00:12:21.169 --> 00:12:24.419 a place for that. Then when you leave school, 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.600 because of that, you just keep playing sports. 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.019 Whether you throw a bunch of sweatshirts on the 00:12:30.019 --> 00:12:31.519 floor and make goals and kick a football around, 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:33.940 or there's cricket tournaments and all these 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:36.639 different things, pub leagues. But I noticed 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.059 that British people would stay active overall. 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.320 But what I saw in the States is you have such 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:44.580 a high level of performance with these youth 00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:47.379 athletes. And then there's the injuries or the 00:12:47.379 --> 00:12:49.460 lack of identity, all these other compounding 00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:51.679 elements where there's a steep drop off. And 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:53.700 now you have people in their 20s and 30s that 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:57.879 aren't doing any sport or exercise anymore. Absolutely. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.139 Yeah, I am trying to reflect on my own time. 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.500 And I played flag football in college, right? 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.679 Little, what are they, intramurals, that sort 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.220 of stuff. But even as passionate as I am about 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:13.919 health and fitness, and I remember. my first 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.860 summer home from college, my buddy and I did, 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.659 was it one of those insanity workouts? I remember. 00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:23.820 Kind of in the P90X realm. And we're sitting 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:26.000 there and we're both track and football athletes. 00:13:26.059 --> 00:13:28.019 How have we only been out for a year and we are 00:13:28.019 --> 00:13:31.860 gassed by this online video exercise, like no 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:36.139 equipment. And yeah, that decline or the regression 00:13:36.139 --> 00:13:39.679 can definitely be quick, unfortunately. Absolutely. 00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:42.299 Well, what about career aspirations? What were 00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:43.740 you dreaming of becoming when you were in the 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:47.580 school age? Yeah, so I'd like to think that I 00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:50.340 never would fall into the Uncle Rico category 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:52.720 because I knew like I was an average athlete, 00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:56.279 but I always loved being in this realm. And so 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:59.379 I really wanted to be a sports agent, to be honest. 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:01.519 And people would always ask me like, oh, you 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:03.779 must have watched Jerry Maguire, which have you 00:14:03.779 --> 00:14:06.320 seen that movie? it's funny i was actually talking 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.779 to someone yesterday who's working with the guy 00:14:08.779 --> 00:14:11.440 that was actually based on so yeah i have yeah 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:14.480 i i always wanted to be an agent and then i saw 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.960 that movie and i was like why would anybody want 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:18.919 to do this like that does not look like a fun 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.559 job i i still wanted to pursue it but yeah that 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:25.360 movie did not sell me on wanting to be a sports 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.539 agent at all but i thought it would be fun to 00:14:27.539 --> 00:14:31.909 be involved in that world And so I actually, 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:34.289 before all of this kind of like health and wellness, 00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:37.750 physical therapy, I, at a high school, I kind 00:14:37.750 --> 00:14:39.710 of always had a call to serve, felt like I wanted 00:14:39.710 --> 00:14:43.509 to serve. And so I was lucky and got the ROTC 00:14:43.509 --> 00:14:47.409 scholarship for the Marines to USC. And at the 00:14:47.409 --> 00:14:49.409 time, the recruiter was like, oh, you want to 00:14:49.409 --> 00:14:51.830 be a sports agent? Like, well, you'll go to school, 00:14:52.110 --> 00:14:54.590 you'll go to law school, then you'll be a JAG 00:14:54.590 --> 00:14:57.590 officer, and then you'll get out in seven years 00:14:57.590 --> 00:15:00.009 and be a sports agent. So I'm thinking. hey i'm 00:15:00.009 --> 00:15:03.809 set right my my grandpa my uncle and my cousin 00:15:03.809 --> 00:15:05.730 were all marines so i was thinking okay like 00:15:05.730 --> 00:15:08.730 i'm following in their footsteps um and then 00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:11.269 i started doing a little bit of research and 00:15:11.269 --> 00:15:14.710 learned that recruiters may stretch the truth 00:15:14.710 --> 00:15:18.250 at times right apparently we sound a little more 00:15:18.250 --> 00:15:21.090 uh sunshine and rainbows than reality and so 00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:23.309 i kind of learned i was like oh the odds of me 00:15:23.309 --> 00:15:26.659 going to law school are pretty low So then you 00:15:26.659 --> 00:15:28.779 become an infantry officer, which there's nothing 00:15:28.779 --> 00:15:32.679 wrong with that. But that's when my uncle and 00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:35.620 my grandpa started kind of planting seeds of 00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:38.240 caution. Like, hey, you might want to reconsider 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.960 this. And I'm thinking, I'm doing this in your 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.460 guys' honor, right? Like the Marines are the 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:45.940 family tradition. And I must have had them fooled 00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:47.899 as a kid because they were like, you're way too 00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:51.100 smart for this. Like, we're grunts. You don't 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:55.549 need to do this path. So I ended up, USC was 00:15:55.549 --> 00:15:58.950 my dream school. And I took a picture with the 00:15:58.950 --> 00:16:01.090 Marine and the big check and ended up turning 00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:04.549 it down and then went to San Diego State instead. 00:16:04.730 --> 00:16:06.970 So that's where I started my college education. 00:16:07.769 --> 00:16:11.090 Did your uncle or grandpa see combat in their 00:16:11.090 --> 00:16:15.750 service? My grandpa, not much, but my uncle was 00:16:15.750 --> 00:16:19.590 a Vietnam era. And to be honest, I haven't gotten 00:16:19.590 --> 00:16:22.950 all of the stories, even having served now. Like 00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:25.870 when him and I talk, you can tell there's some 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:29.230 guarding. There's some stuff that he hasn't processed. 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.049 And that's more that generational difference, 00:16:32.309 --> 00:16:35.129 right? I think a lot of the Vietnam era just 00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:38.570 kind of keeps it in. But yeah, he definitely 00:16:38.570 --> 00:16:41.789 saw some stuff. The Vietnam vets that I've had 00:16:41.789 --> 00:16:45.159 on the show. It's so different. I guess there's 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.220 three different tiers. You've got the World War 00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:50.419 II generation, which I would argue seems to be 00:16:50.419 --> 00:16:53.500 Iraq, Afghanistan, similar where the country 00:16:53.500 --> 00:16:55.639 was behind them. They were welcomed home with 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.840 open arms. Overall, you have the Korean generation, 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.399 which that really breaks my heart because people 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:03.779 basically pretend that never even happened. And 00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:07.960 if you look at what the allies did as far as 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.059 South Korea, the North Koreans were almost to 00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:12.019 the southernmost tip. And they pushed them all 00:17:12.019 --> 00:17:17.319 the way back to the line. But with the Vietnam 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.740 generation, James Capers and some of these other 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:22.700 ones, Rich Rice, the way that they were received, 00:17:22.779 --> 00:17:25.240 you talk about organizational betrayal and moral 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.700 injury. We did such a disservice to those men 00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:31.319 and women of that generation. I feel that we 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.599 still need to lean in and kind of encapsulate 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.619 them because now that we are. in an environment 00:17:37.619 --> 00:17:39.759 where it's okay to talk about this, we need to 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.460 go back in time and figure out who's fallen through 00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:46.359 the gaps. Absolutely. Yeah, there's, I think 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:48.160 there are a lot of veterans and you start thinking, 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:50.460 I'm thinking about my uncle's age, like they 00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:53.519 are, I mean, my dad just turned 70. He was too 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.420 young for the draft. So these individuals are 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:59.619 definitely later in life and yeah, need to take 00:17:59.619 --> 00:18:01.519 care of them as much as possible while we can. 00:18:02.659 --> 00:18:06.180 Absolutely. My father -in -law, he was Navy in 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:08.259 Vietnam and he went to Coast Guard. But yeah, 00:18:08.380 --> 00:18:11.019 I mean, you can just tell a lot of these men, 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:12.980 like you said, they're keeping it in, but it's 00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:17.299 still in there doing damage technically. All 00:18:17.299 --> 00:18:19.240 right. Well, then walk me through your journey 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:23.539 into physical therapy. Yeah. So again, I started 00:18:23.539 --> 00:18:27.049 at San Diego State. uh and quickly i was on like 00:18:27.049 --> 00:18:29.089 after two months i was already on the six to 00:18:29.089 --> 00:18:31.490 seven year plan because when i was in college 00:18:31.490 --> 00:18:35.029 i was at uh it was 2009 so the recession was 00:18:35.029 --> 00:18:37.150 really hitting classes were furloughed a lot 00:18:37.150 --> 00:18:40.589 in california so i kind of had to make that decision 00:18:40.589 --> 00:18:44.190 of Do I want to stay here for six or seven years 00:18:44.190 --> 00:18:47.470 or go private and try to get out earlier? Yes, 00:18:47.549 --> 00:18:49.410 it's going to be more expensive, but kind of 00:18:49.410 --> 00:18:52.009 move on with my life. And so luckily, I had my 00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:54.089 parents support and I ended up getting accepted 00:18:54.089 --> 00:18:57.490 to USC. So I ended up getting to go there. And 00:18:57.490 --> 00:19:00.269 at that point, I'm thinking I'm back in this 00:19:00.269 --> 00:19:03.750 awesome network, the USC world, high quality 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:06.569 athletes, that type of stuff. Right. So the sports 00:19:06.569 --> 00:19:09.630 agent dream is back alive. And I was a business 00:19:09.630 --> 00:19:13.430 law minor. and took my first business law class 00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:16.890 and thought, absolutely not. I have zero interest 00:19:16.890 --> 00:19:19.470 in this. I saw some of the people that were in 00:19:19.470 --> 00:19:21.490 the class and like their cutthroat personalities. 00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:23.750 I'm like, I will get walked all over. This is 00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:27.869 not going to fit for Nick, right? And so I was 00:19:27.869 --> 00:19:30.349 having this existential crisis. I remember I 00:19:30.349 --> 00:19:32.970 worked at the school gym to kind of help pay 00:19:32.970 --> 00:19:35.890 for school. my friend and i were talking we were 00:19:35.890 --> 00:19:38.250 both turning 20 which i look back on so young 00:19:38.250 --> 00:19:39.970 but we were thinking oh my gosh like we're getting 00:19:39.970 --> 00:19:41.490 too old what are we going to do with our lives 00:19:41.490 --> 00:19:45.589 she was like hey man like you love working out 00:19:45.589 --> 00:19:48.029 you love being active you've had your own injury 00:19:48.029 --> 00:19:51.809 history i kind of shared like as as i rehabbed 00:19:51.809 --> 00:19:53.690 myself like i had to teach myself how to walk 00:19:53.690 --> 00:19:55.789 again i remember sitting in the pool and doing 00:19:55.789 --> 00:20:00.049 exercise and like i know that feeling um and 00:20:00.049 --> 00:20:02.369 she was like why would you ever consider physical 00:20:02.369 --> 00:20:05.390 therapy as a career. And oh my gosh, like that, 00:20:05.470 --> 00:20:07.369 that could be pretty cool. Like if I can be part 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:10.269 of somebody else's journey back to doing the 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:11.829 things they love to do, getting their quality 00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:14.190 of life back, not having to go through it alone, 00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:17.670 like I did, like that would be amazing. So then 00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:19.950 I, the next year I started working as a student 00:20:19.950 --> 00:20:23.190 athletic trainer at SC and just kind of following 00:20:23.190 --> 00:20:27.029 that, that pre PT pathway. What was the first 00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:31.099 type of, uh, you know, athlete or background 00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:34.119 that you started working with initially? So I 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:36.180 worked with, I was really lucky. I worked with 00:20:36.180 --> 00:20:39.799 USC's football team my first year and then the 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:41.900 tennis, the men's tennis team the second year. 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.079 So those were the two primary sports I worked 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.000 with. And what were some of the common denominators 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:49.740 as far as the injury and maybe even the reasons 00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:54.400 behind them? Uh, tennis obviously was a lot more 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.759 like shoulder, elbow, a little bit more knee 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:00.920 from impact stuff. Um, one of the things I've 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.660 learned with tennis is I would get, let's say 00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:05.819 somebody came in with tennis elbow. I would be 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:09.640 so focused on that joint and not thinking about 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.000 the rest of the kinematics and like what's going 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.099 on at their shoulder strength, what's going on 00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:17.059 with their thoracic mobility, or are they stabilizing 00:21:17.059 --> 00:21:20.220 well from their core, their hips. I had a really 00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:22.640 good mentor there that helped me look beyond 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.619 just the isolated area where the symptoms are. 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.140 Football, you saw a huge mix of things. I worked 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:35.460 with the D -line, so a lot of wrist, finger injuries, 00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:40.299 dislocations, those types of things. I watched 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:42.599 one of the coolest experiences, not for this 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:46.920 individual, but I saw him tear his ACL, got to 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:50.410 be part of his... prehab sat in on the surgery 00:21:50.410 --> 00:21:53.150 and then got to be part of his rehab so like 00:21:53.150 --> 00:21:56.569 as a pre -physical therapy like young student 00:21:56.569 --> 00:22:00.089 young young learner excuse me that was awesome 00:22:00.089 --> 00:22:02.750 to be able to like see the whole scope for him 00:22:02.750 --> 00:22:07.450 what about the tbi side concussion protocol etc 00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:10.029 back then when you were working early in your 00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:14.700 career yeah i saw A little bit of it. We would 00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:18.220 do like the baseline concussion or the baseline 00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:20.319 cognitive tests at the beginning of the year. 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.599 And I think one thing that's always alarming 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.380 with athletes, you would see some people purposely 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:29.220 do really bad on them so that their baseline 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:31.920 is bad so that when they do get concussed, it's 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:35.400 not as bad. i remember one one day so we'd be 00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.220 sitting on the sidelines during the games and 00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:39.980 one of our guys had like an unbelievably big 00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:43.759 hit on kickoff uh everybody's celebrating he 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:45.900 comes off the field stands next to his buddy 00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:48.099 which is like right in front of me he's like 00:22:48.099 --> 00:22:51.400 oh my gosh i'm so concussed and then he looks 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.440 at me and he's like oh nick like please don't 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.400 say anything right like everybody wants to and 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.339 of course i i have to say something um Yeah, 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.500 I think at least from what I see as a fan, the 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.559 whole like medical blue tent, I think they are 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.960 doing a better job at least catching it initially, 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.339 like screening everybody that potentially has 00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:15.339 it. Now, what actually goes on in the tent or 00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:17.779 afterwards in the concussion protocols, I don't 00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:21.720 know, but I'm glad to see at least some movements 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.059 in the right direction. Absolutely. Well, going 00:23:25.059 --> 00:23:28.200 back to the tennis players, I did, I hurt my 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.849 back about. I think it was about 12 years ago 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:37.269 now. And went to the doctor, the workman's comp 00:23:37.269 --> 00:23:39.029 doctor, and they were like, okay, here's a bunch 00:23:39.029 --> 00:23:41.869 of pills. And the next step I'm sure would have 00:23:41.869 --> 00:23:44.269 been surgery. And I'm like, look, I come from 00:23:44.269 --> 00:23:46.289 somewhat of an excise background. I'm not taking 00:23:46.289 --> 00:23:49.309 your pills. I'm certainly not talking about surgery. 00:23:49.950 --> 00:23:52.369 If there was an imbalance that caused this injury, 00:23:52.549 --> 00:23:54.910 I believe that there's a way that you can rehab 00:23:54.910 --> 00:23:57.069 where I don't need surgery and I just strengthen 00:23:57.069 --> 00:24:02.029 everything. Went to the Cairo I paid out of pocket. 00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:04.710 I was trying to do, you know, my own kind of 00:24:04.710 --> 00:24:08.650 slow rehab in the gym. The PT I was going to 00:24:08.650 --> 00:24:12.789 in Ocala here is basically retirees. So great 00:24:12.789 --> 00:24:14.869 people, but they really didn't have an understanding 00:24:14.869 --> 00:24:16.750 of what a firefighter needs to be able to do 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:20.069 on day one when we go back. So by accident through 00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:21.609 the Cairo, I found this thing called foundation 00:24:21.609 --> 00:24:26.240 training. started doing it was a free video on 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:28.319 youtube i was so impressed at the healing that 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.380 i had i ended up going over and getting certified 00:24:30.380 --> 00:24:32.220 with them and then bring it back to my fire department 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:34.980 the reason i talk about this is one of the things 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:37.299 that eric goodman who's the founder dr eric goodman 00:24:37.299 --> 00:24:40.740 um was talking about you know all these surgeries 00:24:40.740 --> 00:24:42.839 that people would have for carpal tunnel and 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:47.839 um uh plantar fasciitis where the origin of the 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:49.759 pain was actually coming from as you said the 00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.619 hip the shoulder or maybe even the spine itself 00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:54.740 so let's just elaborate on that concept a little 00:24:54.740 --> 00:24:58.140 bit if someone is feeling pain in a certain area 00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:01.180 talk to me about the dangers of focusing just 00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:06.950 on that area yeah so We as humans, we're complex, 00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:10.710 right? And so there could be areas of pain referral, 00:25:11.089 --> 00:25:14.349 meaning like, so there's instances where kids 00:25:14.349 --> 00:25:17.509 may have like a fractured hip, but they're complaining 00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:20.769 of a lot of knee pain. So even though the actual 00:25:20.769 --> 00:25:25.809 injury is up at the hip, it can refer down. There's 00:25:25.809 --> 00:25:28.009 nerve related pain, right? So if you have back 00:25:28.009 --> 00:25:30.670 pain that it's going down your leg into your 00:25:30.670 --> 00:25:34.220 foot. There's a lot of things up or down the 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:37.279 chain. So we'll take something somewhat simple. 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.200 A lot of people refer to it as like runner's 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.700 knee or jumper's knee, which I personally, I 00:25:42.700 --> 00:25:44.519 hate those type of diagnoses because it's like, 00:25:44.579 --> 00:25:46.160 okay, yeah, you have knee pain when you jump 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.279 or you have knee pain when you run. That's not 00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:52.039 very specific what's going on. I always will 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.759 look at the hip and the foot and ankle with those 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:58.440 to see, is there something contributing? Are 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:00.380 there, whether it's mobility issues, strength 00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:03.440 issues. We got to look up and down the chain 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.880 to figure out, is there something else contributing 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:09.740 to the actual movement pattern that we're seeing? 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:13.779 Brilliant. Does that answer that question? No, 00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:16.259 it does. I think just simply that concept, getting 00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:18.420 people to realize, because again, at the extreme 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:22.140 end, if you are having surgery on your foot or 00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.460 your hand, where ultimately the root cause is 00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:27.200 an impinged nerve, for example, at the hip or 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.059 the sacrum or wherever it is. Yeah, that you're 00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:31.900 never going to fix the issue. And these people 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:33.579 are going to get worse and worse and worse with 00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:37.039 these surgeries. So if your physical therapist, 00:26:37.059 --> 00:26:38.980 physician, whoever it is, isn't talking about 00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:41.880 looking at, as you said, the chain, either side, 00:26:41.900 --> 00:26:44.160 north and south, east and west of wherever it's 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:47.079 hurting, then I think it's something that a lot 00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:49.259 of people just don't think about. But it's so 00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:51.839 important for people to know as their own patient 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.519 advocate before people start whipping out scalpels. 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.799 Absolutely. uh yeah two points on that so one 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.579 this is this complexity is why i struggle a lot 00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:05.819 of times people ask me like hey put like a low 00:27:05.819 --> 00:27:09.940 back pain program together and i always say like 00:27:09.940 --> 00:27:12.380 well it depends what's causing it right like 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:14.819 is there hip mobility is there thoracic mobility 00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:18.079 whatever it is so it it becomes more complex 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.380 to you really want an individualized plan and 00:27:21.380 --> 00:27:23.240 then as you mentioned like before you go through 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:25.750 under the scalpel like I know a lot of people, 00:27:25.809 --> 00:27:28.309 they hate, oh, I have to go to PT for six to 00:27:28.309 --> 00:27:30.990 eight weeks before I can go see the surgeon or 00:27:30.990 --> 00:27:33.349 before I can get surgery. And I'm just checking 00:27:33.349 --> 00:27:37.789 boxes. It may feel like that, but I believe strongly, 00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:40.630 like worst case scenario, if you go through a 00:27:40.630 --> 00:27:43.130 good PT plan before surgery, you're going to 00:27:43.130 --> 00:27:45.150 be stronger. You're going to have more range 00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:46.930 of motion. You're going to have your pain decreased. 00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:50.190 So if you end up having the surgery, you're going 00:27:50.190 --> 00:27:53.039 to have better outcomes. best case scenario you 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.160 realize oh wow i'm already good and i don't need 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.420 a surgery anymore like i just go back to living 00:27:58.420 --> 00:28:01.859 my life um yeah so that's that's kind of how 00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:05.359 i try to improve buy -in like i get this feels 00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:07.660 like checking the boxes but if you're not doing 00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:09.380 it right you're not going to get a good outcome 00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:13.900 well with my back my whole thought process was 00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:17.509 i got hurt because there was some imbalance So 00:28:17.509 --> 00:28:20.009 not that surgery was even on my mind, but let's 00:28:20.009 --> 00:28:22.769 say hypothetically I did, that imbalance is still 00:28:22.769 --> 00:28:25.349 there. So I haven't really fixed anything. I've 00:28:25.349 --> 00:28:28.710 just cauterized a nerve or whipped off a disc 00:28:28.710 --> 00:28:31.710 or whatever it is. So with this foundation training 00:28:31.710 --> 00:28:33.490 and all the other things I was doing simultaneously, 00:28:33.730 --> 00:28:35.450 but the foundation training was phenomenal. What 00:28:35.450 --> 00:28:38.930 it was, was the kind of excess, the anterior 00:28:38.930 --> 00:28:42.490 tilt of my hips and the tightness of my hamstrings. 00:28:42.529 --> 00:28:47.769 And so when I'm... um, putting the balance back 00:28:47.769 --> 00:28:50.769 around my joints and then under load, you know, 00:28:50.769 --> 00:28:52.970 building up to the point where I can be a firefighter 00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:55.650 again, I was stronger than I ever was before. 00:28:55.750 --> 00:28:58.670 Not that I was chasing some massive PR, but consistently 00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:01.730 in awkward positions, I was much stronger because 00:29:01.730 --> 00:29:04.509 I'd taken the work to address the issue. If I 00:29:04.509 --> 00:29:07.450 just had pills and surgery, I might've made the 00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:09.849 pain go away for a bit, but I would imagine it 00:29:09.849 --> 00:29:11.430 was only a matter of time before I was going 00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:15.150 to hurt myself again. Exactly. All right. It's 00:29:15.150 --> 00:29:17.849 there a lot of bandaid fixes. And I think we 00:29:17.849 --> 00:29:21.029 were in a society where we want everything quickly. 00:29:21.150 --> 00:29:25.589 Right. And it's gonna not be as quick going just 00:29:25.589 --> 00:29:28.150 through physical therapy, but you're going to 00:29:28.150 --> 00:29:30.509 get the long term outcomes versus the short term. 00:29:30.569 --> 00:29:34.009 So it's all about how we put that lens on like, 00:29:34.069 --> 00:29:36.890 what are what are we really looking to do? Absolutely. 00:29:37.660 --> 00:29:39.460 All right. Well, then you talked about coaching 00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:42.079 or sorry, being physical therapist for collegiate 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.619 athletes. How did your journey take you into 00:29:44.619 --> 00:29:49.200 the military finally? Yeah. So after undergrad, 00:29:49.460 --> 00:29:53.480 I went to state at USC, did my doctorate of physical 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.559 therapy. And at this point, I felt like, hey, 00:29:56.619 --> 00:30:00.779 this is my avenue back into the military world 00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:03.319 of I can follow this passion of physical therapy. 00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:07.950 and go active duty. And so I was lucky. I got 00:30:07.950 --> 00:30:10.049 to do a couple of clinicals during PT school. 00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:12.509 And my last one was a four -monther at Travis 00:30:12.509 --> 00:30:14.529 Air Force Base, so up in Northern California, 00:30:14.670 --> 00:30:18.029 and got to see what it would be like to be an 00:30:18.029 --> 00:30:21.670 active duty PT. So now Lieutenant Colonel Briggs 00:30:21.670 --> 00:30:26.630 is my supervisor and just got to see like, okay, 00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:29.269 what is this patient population like? It is a 00:30:29.269 --> 00:30:31.670 lot different being a PT in the military as far 00:30:31.670 --> 00:30:34.390 as our scope of practice. And I was hooked. And 00:30:34.390 --> 00:30:37.529 so I applied and luckily was picked up about 00:30:37.529 --> 00:30:39.890 a year later and commissioned into the Air Force 00:30:39.890 --> 00:30:44.210 in, what was that, August of 2018. And then was 00:30:44.210 --> 00:30:47.670 stationed not too far from you guys out at Eglin 00:30:47.670 --> 00:30:50.730 Air Force Base in Florida. So do you know where 00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:53.569 that's at? I'm familiar with it. I'm not 100 00:30:53.569 --> 00:30:55.509 % where it is, but I've heard it a few times 00:30:55.509 --> 00:31:04.660 before. Destin area. Lower Alabama. So talk to 00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:08.039 me about the spectrum of airmen that you work 00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:11.519 with. Yeah. So every base is going to be a little 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.400 bit different based on what their mission is 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:16.059 and like kind of what type of personnel are there. 00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:18.880 But for the most part, an active duty, at least 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:20.960 where I was at, I was working at a big hospital. 00:31:21.019 --> 00:31:23.059 So as a traditional outpatient clinic, I was 00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:26.680 seeing a lot of musculoskeletal injuries from 00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:29.539 training. a lot of people like getting ready 00:31:29.539 --> 00:31:32.099 for their annual fitness test so for air force 00:31:32.099 --> 00:31:34.279 at that time it was a mile and a half push -up 00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:36.700 sit -ups so whether they had pain with that stuff 00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:40.180 or needed help getting ready it was it was pretty 00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:43.039 traditional outpatient clinic it wasn't anything 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.559 too too crazy i think when i went through school 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.720 i did a rotation where i got some traumatic brain 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.720 injury and amputee experience and that wasn't 00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:55.660 that at all i think by the time i was in the 00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:58.119 military a lot of our blast injuries had had 00:31:58.119 --> 00:32:01.200 gone away thankfully uh we weren't seeing that 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:03.400 as much and those are the highly specialized 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:06.619 they're going to the walter reeds or the uh center 00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:08.700 for the intrepid in san antonio that type of 00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:12.700 stuff if they're at that high level Talk to me 00:32:12.700 --> 00:32:15.819 about the fitness test. When I was young, which 00:32:15.819 --> 00:32:18.380 was a long time ago, we were doing sit -ups with 00:32:18.380 --> 00:32:21.240 our hands, our fingers encircled and yanking 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.539 on our neck. And then as time goes on, they tell 00:32:23.539 --> 00:32:25.680 us it's a horrible way of doing a sit -up. But 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.480 then you look at a lot of the selection processes 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:30.019 for the military, fire and police, and they're 00:32:30.019 --> 00:32:34.920 still doing the 1980s movements for professions 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.559 where really being able to ascend, move under 00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:40.680 load, that kind of thing is far more important 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.960 than... 50 pushups. So what is your perception 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:46.980 of some of these baseline fitness tests in the 00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:51.319 military specifically? Yeah, I think it misses 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.019 the mark. I think we're doing a lot better. I 00:32:54.019 --> 00:32:56.480 know like the army has their combat fitness test 00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.920 and Marines have that as well. So I think getting 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:03.440 more job specific, I think One thing that a lot 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:05.440 of people don't realize about the military is 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.359 that it really is like a microcosm of general 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:11.140 population. You have these what we think of as 00:33:11.140 --> 00:33:13.880 military personnel, infantry operators, that 00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:16.200 type of stuff. But you also have a lot of desk 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.079 workers. You have a lot of people in the admin, 00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:20.000 people that don't have a physically demanding 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:23.700 job. So I think we're where the military is moving 00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:26.400 right now is getting more job specific on those 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:28.519 fitness tests, which I think is is a positive 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.720 thing. But I'm also seeing even like I look at 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:36.039 the Air Force mile and a half times and the standards 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.279 continue to get lower and lower because all of 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.319 us, military, police, fire, we're having recruitment 00:33:41.319 --> 00:33:45.920 and retention issues. And yeah, so I don't know. 00:33:46.019 --> 00:33:48.259 The tests aren't necessarily great, but also 00:33:48.259 --> 00:33:52.019 the standard is subpar for what we need these 00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:56.599 operators to do. The term false economy seems 00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.640 to become more and more apparent in so many areas, 00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:01.519 and we'll get to the firefighter workweek in 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.299 a little bit. But when it comes to the lowering 00:34:04.299 --> 00:34:07.039 of standards, so you are allowing someone with 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.980 worse strength and conditioning to walk through 00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:13.800 the door, what is the potential cost and ripple 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:17.909 effect that... Maybe, you know, kind of be an 00:34:17.909 --> 00:34:20.769 amplifier of cost versus if you kept that bar 00:34:20.769 --> 00:34:24.989 higher, invested more and and only brought people 00:34:24.989 --> 00:34:27.230 in that were at that initial benchmark that you'd 00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:32.050 set. Yeah, so I at our fire department where 00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:35.510 I'm at now, I have kind of some injury risk reduction 00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:38.929 guidelines, and one of them is building and maintaining 00:34:38.929 --> 00:34:42.489 physical resilience. Right. So having a good 00:34:42.489 --> 00:34:46.039 between. I call it physiologic metrics. So how 00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:47.840 well are your heart and lungs working, your VO2 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:50.360 max, how much body fat are you carrying, some 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.019 mobility and strength and power stuff. If we 00:34:53.019 --> 00:34:56.440 don't have a good foundation of this, you are 00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:59.599 going to sacrifice in some capacity out in the 00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.119 field. I like to say we as humans are smart, 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:05.139 right? We are going to compensate. So if I don't 00:35:05.139 --> 00:35:08.059 have enough hip flexion, say I can't get into 00:35:08.059 --> 00:35:10.500 a deep squat, but I have to pick up that two, 00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:13.079 300 pound patient. what am i going to do i'm 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.139 going to bend over i'm going to put my back at 00:35:15.139 --> 00:35:17.579 a higher risk and if i don't have the back strength 00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:20.400 to support that that's a higher risk right so 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:23.159 that's that's from an individual standpoint that 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:27.340 cost i'm also a big believer in and there's a 00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:30.340 lot of studies out that show when you are operating 00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:33.559 at a very high level like near your threshold 00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:37.679 now your cognitive skills are also going to diminish 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:41.559 right so if i'm tapped out i'm i my vo2 max is 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:44.420 bad by the time i get up to the fire i'm already 00:35:44.420 --> 00:35:49.659 gas now am i am i missing a victim am i not searching 00:35:49.659 --> 00:35:52.420 appropriately and right i am not a firefighter 00:35:52.420 --> 00:35:54.579 so i will butcher some of those terms i can act 00:35:54.579 --> 00:35:58.139 like i i know this stuff um but so like what 00:35:58.139 --> 00:36:01.650 are we missing I've even thought about that within 00:36:01.650 --> 00:36:04.610 police environments of what are we missing or 00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:07.469 does somebody become more fearful as trying to 00:36:07.469 --> 00:36:09.929 defend themselves as a police officer because 00:36:09.929 --> 00:36:12.230 they don't have the physical capabilities to 00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:15.369 defend themselves, to catch up, anything like 00:36:15.369 --> 00:36:19.789 that. That's a whole different ball of wax. But 00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:24.670 yeah, we have a big cost if we do not maintain 00:36:24.670 --> 00:36:28.210 our physical resilience. We've kind of opened 00:36:28.210 --> 00:36:29.710 the door for this, so I'm going to jump in now, 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:32.210 even though it's pertaining to the fire service, 00:36:32.289 --> 00:36:34.250 which we'll get to in a little bit, but sleep. 00:36:34.929 --> 00:36:38.849 I've had quite a few sleep researchers from multiple 00:36:38.849 --> 00:36:41.329 branches of the military, and most recently it 00:36:41.329 --> 00:36:44.849 was Alison Brager and Rachel Markwald, and they 00:36:44.849 --> 00:36:49.170 were talking about the reduced cognitive performance 00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:52.110 when it came to sleep deprivation and the increased 00:36:52.110 --> 00:36:54.110 perceived threat, which obviously could be dangerous 00:36:54.110 --> 00:36:57.119 in law enforcement. Talk to me, let's just stay 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.800 on the physical first. How important is it for 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:06.460 gaining the benefits of strength and conditioning 00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:10.119 and or the rigors of the job? How important is 00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:15.320 sleep from the physical side? Absolutely. I don't 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:17.420 know if there's a way that I can quantify it. 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:19.579 Nothing I've seen in the research quantified. 00:37:19.699 --> 00:37:23.460 I think one of the big things, I'm a big believer 00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:26.840 in. A lot of our issues are multifactorial, right? 00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:29.340 So is it just sleep? Is it the call volume? All 00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:31.400 that sort of stuff. But yeah, if you are not 00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:34.440 recovered, we all feel it. When you wake up in 00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:38.619 the morning, if you feel like shit, you're probably 00:37:38.619 --> 00:37:40.940 going to train like shit, right? Your mobility 00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:42.340 is not going to be there. You're just not going 00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:43.960 to be able to have the same strength and power. 00:37:44.539 --> 00:37:47.639 And let's say you're following a good periodized 00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:50.360 strength and conditioning program. Today, I'm 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.000 supposed to deadlift, whatever, 400 pounds because 00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:55.619 that's what it says on my plan. If I'm not feeling 00:37:55.619 --> 00:37:58.900 it, well, now, yeah, I probably am not going 00:37:58.900 --> 00:38:02.559 to be able to do it. But also, I'm going to increase 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:05.940 the risk of injury because I'm not at that ready 00:38:05.940 --> 00:38:09.420 state. And I think there's a lot of cool tech 00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:11.440 out there now. Like I have a Garmin watch. It 00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.619 gives you your training readiness. I think a 00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:16.559 lot of people kind of blow that stuff off. We 00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:19.099 should be listening to our bodies and listening 00:38:19.099 --> 00:38:22.079 to the tech if we have it to say it's okay to 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.159 take an easy day, an active recovery day, and 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:27.260 then I'll get back into the hard strength and 00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:31.159 conditioning later. When you look at it chronically, 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.320 if a first responder is not sleeping on average 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.349 every third day, What does that do to the likelihood 00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:41.150 of injury if they're taking their job seriously, 00:38:41.329 --> 00:38:42.610 they're doing the strength and conditioning, 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:44.690 they're stressing their muscles, ligaments, and 00:38:44.690 --> 00:38:48.550 tendons, but are not having the ability to heal 00:38:48.550 --> 00:38:50.789 and strengthen them through sleep every third 00:38:50.789 --> 00:38:55.710 day? Yeah, there's a couple of different risk 00:38:55.710 --> 00:38:59.809 factors. So let's say we're speaking with the 00:38:59.809 --> 00:39:02.190 fire department. We have somebody on their day 00:39:02.190 --> 00:39:04.869 three mandatory, and they're getting in and out 00:39:04.869 --> 00:39:07.409 of the rig all day. think about most of us when 00:39:07.409 --> 00:39:09.949 we're we're sleepy we fall asleep on the couch 00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:12.710 we get up or kind of stagger a little bit right 00:39:12.710 --> 00:39:15.369 now you're getting on and off of this huge rig 00:39:15.369 --> 00:39:18.630 multiple times on the uneven footing you're not 00:39:18.630 --> 00:39:20.730 paying attention as much because you're just 00:39:20.730 --> 00:39:22.590 trying to go through the motions yeah your risk 00:39:22.590 --> 00:39:25.550 of injury is going to be higher when when i first 00:39:25.550 --> 00:39:29.110 started at this new position in sacramento we 00:39:29.110 --> 00:39:31.409 i sat down with our risk team and our work comp 00:39:31.409 --> 00:39:34.500 team and they were showing hey um I think it 00:39:34.500 --> 00:39:38.420 was overtime only, it's only 20 % of our injuries 00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:40.760 are occurring on overtime. So it's really not 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:44.000 that big of a deal. And I kind of looked and 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.460 I was like, wait, 20 % of our injuries are overtime, 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:49.539 but like how many hours worked are overtime? 00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:52.260 And they were kind of confused. Like, wait, what 00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:55.199 do you mean by that? Well, not every, like we 00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:57.780 probably only have 5 % of the hour, total hours 00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:01.820 worked are overtime. And if we have 20 % of our 00:40:01.820 --> 00:40:03.400 injuries are overtime, that means you're at a 00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:07.199 four times increased risk of injuries. And that 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:08.840 was kind of like a light bulb moment to them. 00:40:09.380 --> 00:40:12.300 Oh, I haven't thought about it. And that, right. 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.320 It's, they just think it's a five times more 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:17.159 risk during the regular shift because it's only 00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:20.800 20 % on overtime. So I think that's, that's where 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:22.480 it's fun to like have a different lens than, 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:26.900 than some of our administrators. And yeah, sleep 00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:29.659 is a big. a big thing i talk about it with a 00:40:29.659 --> 00:40:32.679 lot of our firefighters i have all of the these 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:34.659 ideas health and wellness wise and things that 00:40:34.659 --> 00:40:36.619 i can do and especially with my background as 00:40:36.619 --> 00:40:39.480 a pt but if we don't get sleep under control 00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:41.900 we're just going to be beating our heads against 00:40:41.900 --> 00:40:44.980 the wall for the most part well the conversation 00:40:44.980 --> 00:40:47.219 i i mean i've been having for nine years now 00:40:47.219 --> 00:40:52.739 um is we we keep talking about the shift Like 00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:55.340 a Rubik's cube. And we'll spin the cube and we're 00:40:55.340 --> 00:40:57.139 like, what if we change the days to this, this 00:40:57.139 --> 00:40:59.920 and this? But it's the same exact 56 hour work 00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:02.159 week. And there's no conversation of why does 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.960 everyone else work 40 hours and we work 56 because 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.260 we're not sleeping all night. Let's debunk that 00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:09.059 myth. You know, we're either actually running 00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:11.960 calls or not in a deep sleep because we're waiting 00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:14.940 to get woken up. And then you've got this recruitment 00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:17.599 crisis, which really, if we're looking at it. 00:41:18.030 --> 00:41:20.789 is a result of young people looking at how we're 00:41:20.789 --> 00:41:22.869 doing and going my god those firefighters are 00:41:22.869 --> 00:41:24.570 falling apart i think i'm gonna go be a welder 00:41:24.570 --> 00:41:27.630 instead um so now you've got this forced overtime 00:41:27.630 --> 00:41:30.369 so a lot of the country it'd be interesting to 00:41:30.369 --> 00:41:32.409 get your take on who you've worked with at the 00:41:32.409 --> 00:41:36.550 moment are relying on overtime constantly and 00:41:36.550 --> 00:41:40.030 that cost is the potential cost to proactively 00:41:40.030 --> 00:41:44.139 invest in A fourth shift, I think of 2472 to 00:41:44.139 --> 00:41:47.119 me, is really the force multiplier for a lot 00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:49.380 of things. So people say to me, if we're talking 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:50.820 about statistics, well, we don't have the money. 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.139 Well, how much are you spending on overtime? 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:54.500 How much are you losing every time someone walks 00:41:54.500 --> 00:41:57.099 out the door after two, three years you've trained 00:41:57.099 --> 00:41:58.980 them and put them through medic school? What 00:41:58.980 --> 00:42:01.559 is your workman's comp premium? What are the 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:04.360 lawsuits that people are making mistakes because 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:06.679 they're so tired? I mean, there's a huge amount 00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:09.219 of money downstream. So just kind of pertaining 00:42:09.219 --> 00:42:11.980 to what you talked about statistics, I find a 00:42:11.980 --> 00:42:13.659 lot of times, you know, people are looking at 00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:15.440 them with the wrong lens. You know, we don't 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.099 have the money. We don't have the money because 00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:19.199 of the way you are working people now. But if 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:21.380 you took that money you put at the front, you 00:42:21.380 --> 00:42:23.699 would actually save money that then you could 00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:25.960 pour into a physical therapist and a mental health 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:28.780 counselor and a fitness, you know, punitive fitness 00:42:28.780 --> 00:42:30.960 test and some of these other things that then 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.139 would just amplify the physical and mental health 00:42:33.139 --> 00:42:37.840 of your people. Yeah, it's definitely a complex 00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:41.219 situation. Having listened to your podcast for 00:42:41.219 --> 00:42:42.920 a little while now, I've definitely broached 00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:44.940 the topic with some of our chiefs of like, what 00:42:44.940 --> 00:42:48.599 are the options for shift changes and that sort 00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:53.500 of stuff? And that's a big uphill battle. I will 00:42:53.500 --> 00:42:56.480 say one thing I'm curious, and I don't know how 00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:58.679 it works, and this is an issue, I don't think 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:01.139 just in our department, but in a lot of departments 00:43:01.139 --> 00:43:04.179 in California specifically, is with the cost 00:43:04.179 --> 00:43:07.920 of living here everybody is reliant on that over 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.780 time so while we hate it they also like their 00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:14.880 lifestyles now are used to overtime and so i've 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:17.699 heard a lot where our union may not support like 00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:20.400 a 24 72 just from the financial consideration 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.119 of the individual firefighter which i find is 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.099 interesting because we we complain about not 00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:28.159 getting sleep but then we if we try to push things 00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.400 that are going to help you there's there's that 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.019 uphill battle um But I do think it is worth exploring 00:43:35.019 --> 00:43:38.860 all of the different options. And that's a goal 00:43:38.860 --> 00:43:41.920 of mine is to try to lead the way and have these 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.800 conversations with our chiefs and our leadership 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:47.599 and figure out where we are going, which luckily 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:49.960 we're in a really good spot within our department. 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:53.139 Our leadership fully supports a lot of the initiatives 00:43:53.139 --> 00:43:54.880 we're pushing forward health and wellness wise. 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:59.360 So I think we're in a good spot right now. The 00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:01.500 response to that exact question, because I've 00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:04.239 been given that a lot, is twofold. Firstly, if 00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:07.559 you work a 24 -72, your hourly rate goes up. 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:09.539 So when you do work overtime, you'll actually 00:44:09.539 --> 00:44:11.699 get more. The goal is to make overtime a lot 00:44:11.699 --> 00:44:14.119 less. But then when it is your turn, guess what? 00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:15.980 You're more valuable to us. We're going to give 00:44:15.980 --> 00:44:17.599 you more money for being away from your family 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:20.400 for 24 hours or 12 hours. But the other thing 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.719 that people miss in this whole conversation is 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.699 so many firefighters enjoy doing other things 00:44:25.699 --> 00:44:29.719 as well. So now you have this extra time between 00:44:29.719 --> 00:44:32.460 shifts. And if you love carpentry or personal 00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:35.400 training or you're a PTA or whatever the things 00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:38.920 are, you can do that on the side. Different tribe, 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:42.699 different identity, different income source. 00:44:42.820 --> 00:44:44.880 So God forbid you lose your job as a firefighter, 00:44:44.900 --> 00:44:47.119 you've got something to fall back on. But there's 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:49.699 a fallacy that we make so much money in the fire 00:44:49.699 --> 00:44:51.480 service and I could never make it anywhere else. 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:54.059 when that's rubbish. But the good thing about 00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:58.579 earning your money that way is you go home at 00:44:58.579 --> 00:45:00.599 night and you have dinner with your family and 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.659 you sleep next to your spouse. So different than 00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:06.659 another 12 or 24 hours in the fire service where 00:45:06.659 --> 00:45:09.519 you've seen the people that you love even less 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.260 and the chances of you having some physical or 00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:14.960 mental health issues down the road and shortening 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.380 your lifespan have gone up even more. So I think 00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:19.639 we've got to reframe what is the most valuable 00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.579 currency. And time at home is the most valuable. 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.320 Do you need some extra money? Okay. Then be an 00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:27.820 entrepreneur or an intrapreneur. Find something 00:45:27.820 --> 00:45:29.920 that you also love doing and do that on the side, 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:32.079 just like we did in the fire service since the 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:34.699 beginning of time. Most of our predecessors had 00:45:34.699 --> 00:45:37.360 side hustles. They didn't work overtime into 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:42.380 the ground. Yeah, I think. Especially, and I 00:45:42.380 --> 00:45:44.760 say this, I feel like I'm in between generations. 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.780 So I'm not quite as young as our young academy 00:45:47.780 --> 00:45:49.960 recruits, but definitely not near retirement 00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:52.840 age yet. And we're already seeing a shift in 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.440 these new recruits and they're wanting to have 00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:58.820 a balance in life. And yeah, they'll work the 00:45:58.820 --> 00:46:01.119 mandatory, but they're not signing up for extra 00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:03.960 overtime for the most part. So yeah, they're 00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:07.550 finding that balance and prioritizing life. That 00:46:07.550 --> 00:46:10.829 is one of my big goals. While I'm here to serve 00:46:10.829 --> 00:46:14.349 the city, serve our department, what I really 00:46:14.349 --> 00:46:18.150 want, Nick's secret mission is improving quality 00:46:18.150 --> 00:46:20.550 of life for all of these people in the service 00:46:20.550 --> 00:46:23.690 and outside. Absolutely. We've got to keep pushing 00:46:23.690 --> 00:46:26.289 for that. 100%. All right. Well, back to the 00:46:26.289 --> 00:46:28.869 military. You talked about the people just trying 00:46:28.869 --> 00:46:31.469 to pass their annual test, for example. Talk 00:46:31.469 --> 00:46:33.309 to me about working with the Special Warfare 00:46:33.309 --> 00:46:36.929 Human Performance Squadron. Yeah, so that's been 00:46:36.929 --> 00:46:41.329 so backtracking. I left the military in 2021. 00:46:41.909 --> 00:46:44.349 This is again, we're talking about just coming 00:46:44.349 --> 00:46:46.730 off of prioritizing life and that sort of stuff. 00:46:46.889 --> 00:46:49.989 My girlfriend at the time, now wife, was out 00:46:49.989 --> 00:46:52.070 in California the whole time that I was in Florida. 00:46:52.110 --> 00:46:55.389 And so I chose I wanted to be closer to family, 00:46:55.409 --> 00:46:57.369 have a little bit more say in what I was doing. 00:46:57.449 --> 00:47:00.880 And so I transitioned to the reserves. And that's 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.800 the position I've been in at the reservists is 00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:04.940 our special warfare human performance squadron. 00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.760 So if we think about for Air Force special warfare, 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.599 like our attack P's, our PJ's, that sort of stuff, 00:47:12.659 --> 00:47:15.000 they go through anywhere from like a year and 00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:18.420 a half to two and a half year training. And so 00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:21.239 our squadron basically just supports their health 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.880 and wellness throughout. their training program. 00:47:23.980 --> 00:47:26.039 So whether they go out to satellite trainings, 00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:28.639 like there's dive school in Florida or jump school. 00:47:28.820 --> 00:47:31.260 Um, and then they kind of come back to San Antonio 00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:33.719 where the headquarters is and we just manage 00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:37.619 their, their health and performance. I've always 00:47:37.619 --> 00:47:40.599 said that if there was any military special operations 00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:44.360 group that matched the American firefighter paramedic, 00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.900 the most it's the power rescues, the PJs. But 00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:50.260 when you talk to the PJs, of which I've had many 00:47:50.260 --> 00:47:52.719 on the show, and you look at the level of training 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.639 and the level of human performance and sports 00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:57.820 psychology and some of the other areas that they're 00:47:57.820 --> 00:48:00.800 given, and then you compare it to most police 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:04.079 and fire, there is quite a chasm. But arguably, 00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:06.539 we're doing somewhat a similar job. Obviously, 00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:08.239 people aren't trying to kill us in the fire service, 00:48:08.260 --> 00:48:11.119 not usually. But we are responding to everyone's 00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:14.420 worst day as they are. Talk to me about that. 00:48:14.460 --> 00:48:16.380 Obviously, you're looking now with this fire 00:48:16.380 --> 00:48:19.800 service lens, but working with that elite performance 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.340 in the Air Force side, what are the differences 00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:26.980 between the physical, mental health and performance 00:48:26.980 --> 00:48:29.860 side that our PJs and TACPs are getting versus 00:48:29.860 --> 00:48:31.860 most police and fire that you've worked with? 00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:36.699 Yeah, when I think of, and caveat, I'm out there 00:48:36.699 --> 00:48:38.880 like two weeks a year. So sometimes I forget 00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:43.050 the exact logistics of it all. We have strength 00:48:43.050 --> 00:48:45.329 and conditioning coaches. We have clinical psychologists, 00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:47.610 physical therapists, occupational therapists, 00:48:48.010 --> 00:48:51.929 med docs, all in like the same clinic, right? 00:48:51.969 --> 00:48:54.710 So it's this very multidisciplinary team, almost 00:48:54.710 --> 00:48:57.610 like you would see at like collegiate or professional 00:48:57.610 --> 00:49:01.590 athlete level. And then we have a whole nother 00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:04.130 part of our squadron that is a research flight. 00:49:04.289 --> 00:49:07.309 So they're doing data analytics, looking into 00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:09.920 the research. What can we bring? And there's 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:12.400 probably four or five people just in that research 00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.780 flight. And I think about all of that. This is 00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:17.760 one thing I'm blessed to be part of the unit 00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:20.679 is I then go back to the fire department and 00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:24.119 I am all of those people in one, right? And trying 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:27.639 to do that. So we have an unbelievable amount 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.059 of resources and whether it's grants or federal 00:49:31.059 --> 00:49:34.400 funding, all that sort of stuff, they get the 00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.559 cream of the crop for our special warfare. That's 00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:41.000 for sure. I think where it's exciting because 00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:42.980 we've got a doom and gloom conversation in the 00:49:42.980 --> 00:49:45.400 fire service and it's because that's how it is. 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:48.320 At the moment, we are not doing well as a profession. 00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:50.320 If you look at the retention, you look at the 00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:52.360 recruitment, you look at all the cancers and 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:55.199 heart disease and strokes and the suicides and 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:57.599 the addictions, it is a real statistic and it's 00:49:57.599 --> 00:49:59.039 something that we need to take care of and we 00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:01.539 can't just beat our chest and say we signed up 00:50:01.539 --> 00:50:04.090 for it and just keep doing the same thing. But 00:50:04.090 --> 00:50:05.989 where I think there's an opportunity for some 00:50:05.989 --> 00:50:09.550 really exciting conversations is when it comes 00:50:09.550 --> 00:50:11.550 to strength and conditioning, when it comes to 00:50:11.550 --> 00:50:14.929 mental health conversations, it really does stop 00:50:14.929 --> 00:50:18.150 at let's try and stop them dying as much. Now, 00:50:18.150 --> 00:50:20.150 all the way on the other side of the Grand Canyon 00:50:20.150 --> 00:50:23.690 is elite performance. So, you know, how can we 00:50:23.690 --> 00:50:26.610 get a firefighter carrying 100 pounds of gear 00:50:26.610 --> 00:50:28.869 for a high rise strip to be able to ascend 20 00:50:28.869 --> 00:50:32.349 floors? And then as you talked about. have their 00:50:32.349 --> 00:50:35.190 heart rate under control, be cognitively clear, 00:50:35.329 --> 00:50:37.670 and then breach the door, make entry, search 00:50:37.670 --> 00:50:39.369 for a child, and then bring them all the way 00:50:39.369 --> 00:50:43.070 down. Elite performance. You ask anyone in a 00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:45.210 top -level military position, if you said this 00:50:45.210 --> 00:50:46.849 is the situation, I'm sure they would agree. 00:50:47.269 --> 00:50:49.949 So where I feel that there's an exciting conversation 00:50:49.949 --> 00:50:53.869 is... shifting towards performance you know that 00:50:53.869 --> 00:50:57.769 will also uh help the the physical helps uh excuse 00:50:57.769 --> 00:51:00.030 me the the mental health side it will help the 00:51:00.030 --> 00:51:02.170 injury prevention side it will help all of these 00:51:02.170 --> 00:51:05.809 things but we've been so we've been on the back 00:51:05.809 --> 00:51:08.070 foot for so long that i feel like the conversation 00:51:08.070 --> 00:51:10.809 needs to shift to how can we really get firefighters 00:51:10.809 --> 00:51:13.550 to perform now the work week the sleep absolutely 00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:16.949 huge you know part of that conversation but then 00:51:16.949 --> 00:51:19.659 when we do But what are we talking about with 00:51:19.659 --> 00:51:22.099 fitness standards, you know, expectations, strength 00:51:22.099 --> 00:51:25.579 conditioning, you know, injury prevention, you 00:51:25.579 --> 00:51:27.780 know, breath work, all these elements so that 00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:30.719 that first responder has the highest chance of 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:32.940 actually facilitating that rescue when they enter. 00:51:34.820 --> 00:51:38.179 Yeah, it's you are describing all of the missions 00:51:38.179 --> 00:51:41.659 that I'm trying to work on right now. And I would 00:51:41.659 --> 00:51:44.900 say. We, we, in our department right now, we're 00:51:44.900 --> 00:51:47.579 making some good steps where as far as fitness 00:51:47.579 --> 00:51:50.519 standards go, when, when I showed up, so I've 00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:52.920 been here for about two years, we had like a 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.659 mile and a half run and it was in 12 minutes 00:51:55.659 --> 00:52:00.219 or less. And if you did it great, if not, I guess 00:52:00.219 --> 00:52:03.739 you still get off of probation. Yeah. So I've 00:52:03.739 --> 00:52:05.460 really changed that. I've tried to bring a little 00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:08.159 bit of the military experience. Have you ever 00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:10.579 seen, at least I'll speak to the Air Force PT 00:52:10.579 --> 00:52:13.599 chart. Have you seen those where I have not the 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:16.699 air force one. So there's, let's say for your 00:52:16.699 --> 00:52:19.460 mile and a half, if you, I think at like under 00:52:19.460 --> 00:52:22.079 30 years old, you have to run like a nine 15 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:25.840 to max out, like to get your 50 points. And then 00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:27.960 as your time gets slower, you get less points. 00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:30.280 And then same thing for pushups. There's like 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:33.179 a max and then you get less points. So I brought, 00:52:33.219 --> 00:52:36.280 I created a chart like that for our academy and 00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:40.300 for our probation officers. So we have. a mile 00:52:40.300 --> 00:52:43.539 and a half run and then we have uh force plates 00:52:43.539 --> 00:52:46.000 so we're fortunate to get some evolved force 00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.139 plates so we have max deadlift so we're testing 00:52:48.139 --> 00:52:50.800 their strength and then a low back endurance 00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:53.719 test which under a certain threshold you have 00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:56.219 an increased risk of low back pain and so we 00:52:56.219 --> 00:52:58.360 have they have all three of these they have to 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:01.570 get a minimum score on and in the academy they'll 00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:03.769 get diligence if they don't hit those and then 00:53:03.769 --> 00:53:07.429 the expectation right now especially on my 25 00:53:07.429 --> 00:53:09.969 one you guys are coming up on this in a couple 00:53:09.969 --> 00:53:13.590 of months you guys uh like they will have their 00:53:13.590 --> 00:53:15.489 probation extended if they're not hitting their 00:53:15.489 --> 00:53:18.690 fitness standards because that is a job requirement 00:53:18.690 --> 00:53:22.889 now once they are offered probation that's where 00:53:22.889 --> 00:53:26.050 so the next 29 years of the 30 -year career that's 00:53:26.050 --> 00:53:28.530 the big uphill climb we don't really have much 00:53:28.530 --> 00:53:31.619 uh That's where it switches from the stick and 00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:34.320 it's much more of the carrot motivation standard 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:38.420 and trying to just uphold their physical capabilities 00:53:38.420 --> 00:53:41.719 throughout their career. What are you seeing 00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:45.119 as far as the fitness of the new recruits? When 00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:48.179 I think back to working in California, I was 00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:51.010 struck. by the fact that they just simply were 00:53:51.010 --> 00:53:53.110 a fitter population. I'm talking about really 00:53:53.110 --> 00:53:54.989 near the coast as well, Southern California, 00:53:55.190 --> 00:53:57.250 but it doesn't matter if it was Fullerton or 00:53:57.250 --> 00:53:59.710 Orange or wherever, you know, the men and women 00:53:59.710 --> 00:54:01.849 that were in uniform, like it was very unusual 00:54:01.849 --> 00:54:03.809 if you saw someone that was even, you know, a 00:54:03.809 --> 00:54:06.570 little heavy down there. Conversely, you know, 00:54:06.610 --> 00:54:08.510 you go to other parts of the country and that's 00:54:08.510 --> 00:54:12.039 not so much the case. Someone said to me recently 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:14.119 that the exciting thing about this younger generation 00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:16.539 is the fit ones are very fit now because they 00:54:16.539 --> 00:54:18.719 have access to all things, strength and conditioning 00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:21.679 and rehab and prehab, etc. What are you seeing 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:24.699 as far as the level of strength and conditioning 00:54:24.699 --> 00:54:27.039 and understanding of that with a lot of these 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.219 young people you're working with now? Yeah, I 00:54:30.219 --> 00:54:34.219 feel like the ends of the spectrum are going 00:54:34.219 --> 00:54:36.500 in opposite directions where you don't have that 00:54:36.500 --> 00:54:39.440 many people in the middle. anymore you have the 00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:41.679 individuals like you just spoke of of the really 00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:44.460 fit they have good resources they have an athletic 00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:48.019 background and then you have the people who haven't 00:54:48.019 --> 00:54:51.920 moved at all and you know we just did our our 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:54.940 pre -academy for this next selection and i think 00:54:54.940 --> 00:55:00.119 14 or 15 out of the 37 didn't pass the mile and 00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:02.960 a half and so we're it's like okay we we have 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.469 some some work to do um so yeah i i think you're 00:55:07.469 --> 00:55:11.349 starting to see this divide where the middle 00:55:11.349 --> 00:55:14.710 is not as strong anymore and you're getting very 00:55:14.710 --> 00:55:18.969 fit people or very unfit people who, for whatever 00:55:18.969 --> 00:55:21.130 reason, want to go into this service, whether 00:55:21.130 --> 00:55:24.110 it's they have family in it, it's good benefits, 00:55:24.269 --> 00:55:26.809 whatever is calling them to it, but they aren't 00:55:26.809 --> 00:55:30.050 used to or prepared for the physical elements 00:55:30.050 --> 00:55:34.090 of this job right now. See, when I tested for 00:55:34.090 --> 00:55:38.519 Anaheim, so 21... Years ago, 22 years ago. No, 00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:39.840 20 years ago. Sorry, I'm getting my math all 00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:43.519 backwards. 20 years ago, I was testing in the 00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:45.179 written test. So there's obviously more people 00:55:45.179 --> 00:55:47.699 that applied. A thousand people in the Anaheim 00:55:47.699 --> 00:55:49.840 Convention Center sitting down doing the written. 00:55:50.739 --> 00:55:53.420 And so if you look at the fact there was only 00:55:53.420 --> 00:55:57.019 30 positions available, everything had to be 00:55:57.019 --> 00:55:59.840 as... good as you possibly could so the biddle 00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:01.440 was the one that we took then like you need to 00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:03.820 be smashing your written your biddle your your 00:56:03.820 --> 00:56:05.940 two interviews obviously your background check 00:56:05.940 --> 00:56:09.559 needs to be solid um and so you know therefore 00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:12.780 you had back then i would argue an environment 00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:14.619 where if you were trying to get hired in most 00:56:14.619 --> 00:56:17.500 places around the country you had to be doing 00:56:17.500 --> 00:56:19.920 the work you know not the bare minimum but the 00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:22.760 bare maximum to even even have a chance of getting 00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:26.269 hired With this, as I said, this devolution now 00:56:26.269 --> 00:56:28.469 that we're seeing, and I really feel like the 00:56:28.469 --> 00:56:31.630 2472, some of these other initiatives are going 00:56:31.630 --> 00:56:33.110 to be the thing that's going to turn the ship 00:56:33.110 --> 00:56:36.190 around. It feels like it's the opposite now where 00:56:36.190 --> 00:56:37.809 people, instead of taking, that was literally 00:56:37.809 --> 00:56:40.750 the top 3 % of the list that they took. Now people 00:56:40.750 --> 00:56:42.909 are taking, I mean, literally I'm hearing everyone, 00:56:43.090 --> 00:56:46.090 everyone that applies, they get a job. So now 00:56:46.090 --> 00:56:49.010 that bottom group is making it into the academy. 00:56:49.769 --> 00:56:51.550 I'm sure there were probably some of those bottom 00:56:51.550 --> 00:56:53.829 groups when we were testing, you know, even 10 00:56:53.829 --> 00:56:56.289 years ago, but they never made it to the drill 00:56:56.289 --> 00:56:58.050 ground because they weren't putting the work 00:56:58.050 --> 00:57:01.150 in. Now, sadly, with these hiring bonuses and 00:57:01.150 --> 00:57:04.469 these high school incentive programs, you're 00:57:04.469 --> 00:57:07.929 bringing those people in and it's a disservice 00:57:07.929 --> 00:57:09.829 to them and their own physical health. It's a 00:57:09.829 --> 00:57:12.170 disservice to the people that they're going to 00:57:12.170 --> 00:57:14.050 be partnered with. And it's a disservice to the 00:57:14.050 --> 00:57:16.030 people that are going to be serving. Because 00:57:16.030 --> 00:57:18.150 there is a much higher chance that they are going 00:57:18.150 --> 00:57:19.929 to get hurt, their partner is going to get hurt, 00:57:20.050 --> 00:57:21.769 or they're never going to make it to the person 00:57:21.769 --> 00:57:23.929 they're supposed to be responding to. And I think 00:57:23.929 --> 00:57:26.510 as a profession, we really need to take a step 00:57:26.510 --> 00:57:28.730 backwards and look at this lowering of standards 00:57:28.730 --> 00:57:34.489 and rectify it. Yeah. And to be honest, I... 00:57:34.940 --> 00:57:37.619 maybe wrong with this. Again, I'm pretty new 00:57:37.619 --> 00:57:40.039 at this position. So but I don't know if we we 00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:43.039 have the CPAT is their their minimum to apply. 00:57:43.300 --> 00:57:45.380 But I don't think we have any other physical 00:57:45.380 --> 00:57:49.099 standard as far as like applying or getting accepted 00:57:49.099 --> 00:57:51.920 to a position. So I don't even know if that's 00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:56.239 part of our our thought process or our entrance 00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:59.900 right now. And I've done some research on the 00:57:59.900 --> 00:58:04.010 CPAT. I look at it. Sorry if I offend anyone, 00:58:04.190 --> 00:58:06.190 but it doesn't seem like that hard of a test. 00:58:06.510 --> 00:58:10.570 Right. And I've recently I have a couple of I 00:58:10.570 --> 00:58:13.710 coach on the side as well. And people reach out 00:58:13.710 --> 00:58:15.650 like, hey, like I hear you're good with fire 00:58:15.650 --> 00:58:19.030 fitness. Can you help me? I failed my CPAT. I 00:58:19.030 --> 00:58:21.449 need a lot of help. And I'm thinking like, wow, 00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:23.829 like this is I'm happy to help. I'm glad you're 00:58:23.829 --> 00:58:26.969 like reaching out for resources. But if this 00:58:26.969 --> 00:58:29.449 is if you're not hitting this standard, we have 00:58:29.449 --> 00:58:32.800 a lot of work to do. before you go to, and like 00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.079 our academy, especially is very physically demanding. 00:58:35.860 --> 00:58:37.880 So if you're going to come to that type of academy, 00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:41.000 like we have a lot of work to do to get you ready 00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:46.099 for success in a safe manner. One of the things 00:58:46.099 --> 00:58:49.480 that I saw that the CPAT is a 1020 pass or 1019, 00:58:49.659 --> 00:58:53.510 I guess is technically the pass. You'd have these 00:58:53.510 --> 00:58:56.769 programs or people that I worked alongside that 00:58:56.769 --> 00:58:58.489 were a lot of times they were the single -serve 00:58:58.489 --> 00:59:00.050 paramedics and they were trying to get into the 00:59:00.050 --> 00:59:02.949 fire. They would take multiple times and then 00:59:02.949 --> 00:59:04.409 they'd come into the station one day and high 00:59:04.409 --> 00:59:07.630 -five everyone because they got a 1019. And again, 00:59:07.670 --> 00:59:09.650 going back to when the standard was high, the 00:59:09.650 --> 00:59:13.110 CPAT is a great, great test. But the lower your 00:59:13.110 --> 00:59:15.289 score, the higher chance you had of being high 00:59:15.289 --> 00:59:17.590 on the list. So it wasn't about getting a 1020 00:59:17.590 --> 00:59:20.750 or a 1019. And just to illustrate the point. 00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:24.300 I am not an elite athlete. I am not, you know, 00:59:24.300 --> 00:59:26.280 a world champion in anything. But a few years 00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:29.539 ago, I did the CPAT to get ready to join the 00:59:29.539 --> 00:59:31.659 fire service again if I couldn't get sponsorship 00:59:31.659 --> 00:59:35.500 for the podcast. And I got a 720 at 45 years 00:59:35.500 --> 00:59:38.340 old or whatever it was. So if my old ass can 00:59:38.340 --> 00:59:41.820 do 720 on the CPAT and I'm not a big strong dude 00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:45.000 at all, then, you know, I think you could argue 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.719 that three more minutes, you know, that you could 00:59:47.719 --> 00:59:50.690 bring that down a little bit. It's a great test. 00:59:50.789 --> 00:59:52.730 I really think the CPAT or the FPAT, which is 00:59:52.730 --> 00:59:54.769 another one with the firestead, they are great 00:59:54.769 --> 00:59:58.309 tests. But again, are you taking the bare minimum 00:59:58.309 --> 01:00:00.809 or using that to get people to challenge themselves, 01:00:01.010 --> 01:00:04.130 be competitive? You know, if they got a 950, 01:00:04.309 --> 01:00:06.269 then great, then go away, you know, do some more 01:00:06.269 --> 01:00:07.730 strength conditioning to see if we can get you 01:00:07.730 --> 01:00:10.809 to a 930. But it's not. It's that bare minimum 01:00:10.809 --> 01:00:12.929 mentality. Again, I think that's a very dangerous 01:00:12.929 --> 01:00:17.460 mindset. Yeah. and again i i may be wrong i don't 01:00:17.460 --> 01:00:19.800 see all the things within like the hr and hiring 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:23.300 process but i i believe we just see it's a pass 01:00:23.300 --> 01:00:26.300 fail right so there we have no clue like what 01:00:26.300 --> 01:00:31.380 their their time was yeah yeah a lot of work 01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:34.719 to be done indeed well just i guess going at 01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:37.219 a slightly different direction for a moment you 01:00:37.219 --> 01:00:40.750 came from high level collegiate athletes You 01:00:40.750 --> 01:00:42.570 have worked obviously in the reserve side with 01:00:42.570 --> 01:00:45.590 high level tactical athletes on the Air Force 01:00:45.590 --> 01:00:50.889 side. What were your initial impressions of fitness 01:00:50.889 --> 01:00:54.130 standards or lack thereof in the first responder 01:00:54.130 --> 01:00:56.889 professions when lives depend on us literally 01:00:56.889 --> 01:01:03.429 on a daily basis? Yeah, I think it's been a good 01:01:03.429 --> 01:01:05.849 experience over the past year, year and a half 01:01:05.849 --> 01:01:07.789 trying to figure out like, okay, where are we 01:01:07.789 --> 01:01:11.960 at as a department? And overall, I think our 01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:14.440 department does pretty good. But there's again, 01:01:14.539 --> 01:01:17.739 you I think you have that. It's not so much of 01:01:17.739 --> 01:01:20.039 a bell curve anymore. You have the people who 01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:22.480 are in really good shape and put effort in. And 01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:25.179 and I would say that's at least two thirds of 01:01:25.179 --> 01:01:27.460 our department. I'd say we're a pretty prideful 01:01:27.460 --> 01:01:29.139 department on holding each other accountable. 01:01:29.500 --> 01:01:33.179 But then there's another at least third to half, 01:01:33.420 --> 01:01:36.340 maybe that. Do you want to end up on the drill 01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:39.530 ground with them? Do you hope that? they're sitting 01:01:39.530 --> 01:01:41.670 next to you in the back seat when, when the big 01:01:41.670 --> 01:01:44.789 fire goes or that I kind of always challenge 01:01:44.789 --> 01:01:48.289 what I'm challenging our new recruits and our 01:01:48.289 --> 01:01:51.989 probationary firefighters with are be the firefighter 01:01:51.989 --> 01:01:54.489 you want showing up when your family needs help. 01:01:55.670 --> 01:01:58.469 Right. And, and can you look at yourself in the 01:01:58.469 --> 01:02:02.010 mirror and say that individual would save my 01:02:02.010 --> 01:02:04.670 family, save all the kids, save, save your dog, 01:02:04.789 --> 01:02:08.110 everything like. And if you can't honestly answer 01:02:08.110 --> 01:02:11.510 that, yes, I feel confident. There's nothing 01:02:11.510 --> 01:02:14.630 wrong with that, but it's good to do a self -reflection 01:02:14.630 --> 01:02:16.889 and then lean on the resources, lean on people 01:02:16.889 --> 01:02:20.989 like me or go private and use that to, there's 01:02:20.989 --> 01:02:23.030 so many resources out there. Like make yourself 01:02:23.030 --> 01:02:26.409 better, a little bit better every day. What about, 01:02:26.510 --> 01:02:28.230 let's stay with the PJs because it's the closest 01:02:28.230 --> 01:02:30.849 apples to apples. What standards are they held 01:02:30.849 --> 01:02:34.670 to, to maintain fitness? Oh man, to be honest. 01:02:35.469 --> 01:02:38.110 I can't speak to that right now. I don't know. 01:02:38.210 --> 01:02:42.449 It is so far beyond what we hold our people to, 01:02:42.510 --> 01:02:45.230 though. Like I know when I go there, generally 01:02:45.230 --> 01:02:48.349 when I'm there, what I go to help with is it's 01:02:48.349 --> 01:02:50.590 called A &S, their assessment and selection. 01:02:50.750 --> 01:02:53.750 So it's like their hardest two weeks. And we're 01:02:53.750 --> 01:02:56.289 just doing sick call and treating injury like, 01:02:56.349 --> 01:02:58.269 hey, I rolled my ankle out on like the midnight 01:02:58.269 --> 01:03:01.750 rock. So I don't know too much about their fitness 01:03:01.750 --> 01:03:03.849 standards, but all of these individuals, like 01:03:03.849 --> 01:03:05.550 you just see them walking around, working out 01:03:05.550 --> 01:03:07.750 and like, man, I wish I got paid to work out 01:03:07.750 --> 01:03:11.030 six, seven hours a day. They are in absolutely 01:03:11.030 --> 01:03:13.469 phenomenal shape. I think they would breeze through 01:03:13.469 --> 01:03:16.909 Fire Academy, at least from a fitness standpoint. 01:03:18.030 --> 01:03:20.510 Well, this is what I hear from, you know, all 01:03:20.510 --> 01:03:23.250 sections of special operations. But another group, 01:03:23.250 --> 01:03:24.550 which I think is really important to highlight 01:03:24.550 --> 01:03:27.559 is the Ocean Lifeguards. So usually a lot of 01:03:27.559 --> 01:03:29.440 times they're attached even to fire departments 01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:32.820 in Southern California, but I was a lifeguard 01:03:32.820 --> 01:03:35.000 in open water, not, not ever the ocean though, 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.639 but you are held to a standard. If you don't 01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:40.260 recertify for, for example, your swim test, which 01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:42.340 involves a lot of, you know, cardio and strength 01:03:42.340 --> 01:03:44.059 and conditioning, then you're not a lifeguard 01:03:44.059 --> 01:03:47.280 anymore. It's just that simple. And so I think 01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:49.460 that we as a profession have done such a disservice 01:03:49.460 --> 01:03:52.239 by never putting a standard in when one could 01:03:52.239 --> 01:03:54.239 argue that you are held to a standard in the 01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:56.900 academy. So no one can say it's not fair. You 01:03:56.900 --> 01:03:59.800 pull dummies, you climb stairs encumbered, you 01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:03.159 chop wood, all the things. So it's a beautiful 01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:06.420 way of just keeping that standard held with the 01:04:06.420 --> 01:04:08.300 CPAT, with the FPAT, something that's completely 01:04:08.300 --> 01:04:12.519 job specific. So you're not being unfair to the... 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:16.199 120 pound firefighter or you know the six foot 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:18.320 five firefighter that might have you know more 01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:20.880 challenges you're just saying you either can 01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:23.280 or you can't do the fire ground tasks when put 01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:26.420 in a sequence so i don't understand why there's 01:04:26.420 --> 01:04:28.460 such resistance when pretty much every other 01:04:28.460 --> 01:04:32.400 high level life -saving profession requires that 01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:34.420 people to be held at a standard and if they're 01:04:34.420 --> 01:04:36.539 not then you're not a seal anymore you're not 01:04:36.539 --> 01:04:38.480 a green beret whatever the thing is if you can't 01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:41.039 maintain it And then you create a culture of 01:04:41.039 --> 01:04:43.199 that where you almost don't need a standard because 01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:45.820 it's just an accepted conversation, which to 01:04:45.820 --> 01:04:48.659 your point, a lot of fire departments, they have 01:04:48.659 --> 01:04:51.719 that group that doesn't matter what you tell 01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:53.260 me I have to do. I'm going to train because I 01:04:53.260 --> 01:04:55.579 understand the nature of my job. But I think 01:04:55.579 --> 01:04:57.800 it becomes a deterrent then, like you said, for 01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.559 that middle group that can be swayed either way 01:05:00.559 --> 01:05:04.960 not to allow themselves to slide. Yeah, exactly. 01:05:05.300 --> 01:05:10.880 It is an interesting... I feel like I have a 01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:12.659 lot of conversations at our department right 01:05:12.659 --> 01:05:15.099 now of what would this look like to actually 01:05:15.099 --> 01:05:18.659 implement a standard? And is it punitive? Do 01:05:18.659 --> 01:05:21.860 you have to do incentives? I think one thing 01:05:21.860 --> 01:05:24.760 that has been eye -opening as far as just learning 01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:27.400 the processes different from the military versus 01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:30.400 now in the fire service is the introduction of 01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:33.460 unions. And now you have these protected class 01:05:33.460 --> 01:05:37.000 employees. And what were the contracts like when 01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:40.630 they signed up? It's definitely an interesting 01:05:40.630 --> 01:05:44.110 thing of how do you work all of this in and make 01:05:44.110 --> 01:05:47.909 everybody happy, which I don't know if everybody 01:05:47.909 --> 01:05:51.250 will ever be happy. Well, I mean, from the union 01:05:51.250 --> 01:05:53.909 point of view, it's a super simple answer. Do 01:05:53.909 --> 01:05:56.150 you want your men and women to be healthy and 01:05:56.150 --> 01:05:59.289 have long, fruitful retirements? Well, then why 01:05:59.289 --> 01:06:01.829 would you oppose a fitness standard? It's that 01:06:01.829 --> 01:06:04.110 simple. Opposing a fitness standard is basically 01:06:04.110 --> 01:06:06.389 increasing their chances of dying from physical 01:06:06.389 --> 01:06:10.030 or mental health disease. Yeah. So if you're 01:06:10.030 --> 01:06:11.989 supposed to be there for the benefit of the workforce, 01:06:12.150 --> 01:06:14.269 you should be the one spearheading the fitness 01:06:14.269 --> 01:06:16.849 standard. A fair one, like I said, a CPAT or 01:06:16.849 --> 01:06:19.469 something, not, you know, must deadlift 500 pounds 01:06:19.469 --> 01:06:22.809 and then run a sub four mile. But, you know, 01:06:22.889 --> 01:06:25.030 that is you literally at the front door expected 01:06:25.030 --> 01:06:27.429 that if we're going to be talking about cancer 01:06:27.429 --> 01:06:29.389 and heart disease and all these things, but you're 01:06:29.389 --> 01:06:31.530 not being part of the conversation for a healthy 01:06:31.530 --> 01:06:33.570 work week and a fitness standard, then you're 01:06:33.570 --> 01:06:37.480 not taking any of those issues seriously. Absolutely. 01:06:37.579 --> 01:06:41.420 I know a lot of people argue like, hey, the system 01:06:41.420 --> 01:06:45.000 is broken. We need to figure out the shifts or 01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:48.159 we need to figure out the call volume and all 01:06:48.159 --> 01:06:50.260 of these things. And while they are absolutely 01:06:50.260 --> 01:06:53.199 right, there are a lot of system issues we need 01:06:53.199 --> 01:06:55.559 to change. That doesn't mean you need to wait 01:06:55.559 --> 01:06:57.980 to make your own personal individual changes 01:06:57.980 --> 01:07:00.880 and like figure out, am I eating well? Am I sleeping 01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:03.119 as much as possible, at least on my off days? 01:07:03.710 --> 01:07:07.590 Am I exercising in an appropriate way? Right. 01:07:07.650 --> 01:07:09.550 We still have some individual responsibility 01:07:09.550 --> 01:07:13.690 to this. I'm curious because one one always pushback 01:07:13.690 --> 01:07:16.550 I hear with the fitness standard is would we 01:07:16.550 --> 01:07:20.710 make it age or gender determinate or like like 01:07:20.710 --> 01:07:23.230 we scale it for those? I'm curious what your 01:07:23.230 --> 01:07:26.610 thoughts are on that. Well, as a 51 year old 01:07:26.610 --> 01:07:28.989 bloke that still does all the training and would 01:07:28.989 --> 01:07:31.050 actually be able to do the fire ground stuff. 01:07:32.119 --> 01:07:34.559 And having people older than me in my gym that 01:07:34.559 --> 01:07:36.880 could also do it. I mean, I think there's a very 01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:40.460 easy answer, which is we're all in gear. And, 01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:42.360 you know, it's your family that are up on that 01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:46.460 eighth floor apartment. Do you care who's inside 01:07:46.460 --> 01:07:50.559 that gear? Gay, straight, 50, 18, you know, or 01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:52.760 do you just want them to be able to do the job? 01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:55.340 So if you are going to be on an engine, a truck, 01:07:55.420 --> 01:07:57.159 whatever it is, and bearing in mind, as you alluded 01:07:57.159 --> 01:07:59.960 to. If you did the CPAT as a standard, it is 01:07:59.960 --> 01:08:03.360 not a hard test. It is not. It's just maintaining 01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:06.079 the ability to do it. And it then is a beautiful 01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:09.000 way of seeing, all right, am I getting some immobility? 01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:10.780 Are things starting to hurt? Am I having problems? 01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:14.000 It's a great assessment tool for you to work 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.100 on yourself without getting too far beyond and 01:08:16.100 --> 01:08:19.420 getting hurt. But it just comes down to the point 01:08:19.420 --> 01:08:22.880 of can you or can you not? And age is no different 01:08:22.880 --> 01:08:25.720 than skin color and gender and sexual orientation. 01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.859 You either can or you can't. And I certainly 01:08:29.859 --> 01:08:33.100 wouldn't accept that my child died when someone 01:08:33.100 --> 01:08:35.520 said, yeah, but I'm 49. I just couldn't make 01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:38.020 it up there. So that's, again, it's a big boy 01:08:38.020 --> 01:08:40.119 conversation. If you want to be a firefighter 01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:43.039 and you want to work for 20 or 25 years, then 01:08:43.039 --> 01:08:45.159 you have to maintain that standard. But I'm also 01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:48.220 very fair. How can we expect our men and women 01:08:48.220 --> 01:08:50.279 to maintain a high level of performance when 01:08:50.279 --> 01:08:54.569 they're working 56, 80, 120 hours a week? So 01:08:54.569 --> 01:08:56.329 those have to go hand in hand. If we're going 01:08:56.329 --> 01:08:59.590 to expect our men and women to maintain the standard, 01:08:59.689 --> 01:09:02.189 we have to give them the work that allows them 01:09:02.189 --> 01:09:04.409 to actually perform at that level and maintain 01:09:04.409 --> 01:09:08.789 their body composition. Absolutely. Yeah, my 01:09:08.789 --> 01:09:11.989 short answer to that question is always the family 01:09:11.989 --> 01:09:14.029 that you're going to help doesn't care how old 01:09:14.029 --> 01:09:16.210 you are, how you identify, anything like that. 01:09:16.470 --> 01:09:20.439 I think that's where I try to strive on. we shouldn't 01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:23.159 be hitting the minimum standards when we are 01:09:23.159 --> 01:09:26.220 in our 20s and our 30s. Because yes, your performance 01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:29.979 may dip as you age, as you have injuries. But 01:09:29.979 --> 01:09:33.000 if you're starting at the minimum, oh man, it's 01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:35.739 going to be a steep decline in the next 20 years. 01:09:35.899 --> 01:09:38.899 Versus if you start really, really good, yes, 01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:41.619 you may have a slow decline, but you're still 01:09:41.619 --> 01:09:45.199 hitting that minimum standard by the end. It's 01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:48.060 literally the same as the guy that says, I don't 01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:51.260 need a train. I just see red. The adrenaline 01:09:51.260 --> 01:09:54.000 will help me out. You're like, no, you fall to 01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:55.659 your level of training. You don't rise to your 01:09:55.659 --> 01:09:58.079 level of expectations. So if at the front door, 01:09:58.119 --> 01:09:59.560 you're already on the back foot, where do you 01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:02.140 think you're going to be 15 years later? Yeah, 01:10:02.180 --> 01:10:05.180 absolutely. Yeah. And seeing red, it may work 01:10:05.180 --> 01:10:07.460 once, but then if you get a second call or it's 01:10:07.460 --> 01:10:10.020 a bad call, like that's not going to last too 01:10:10.020 --> 01:10:13.789 long. No, exactly. Well, you alluded to injury. 01:10:13.930 --> 01:10:15.949 So let's get because I want to talk about rehab 01:10:15.949 --> 01:10:18.550 and, you know, getting back to work. It's a really 01:10:18.550 --> 01:10:21.210 important conversation. Now you've got these 01:10:21.210 --> 01:10:23.329 people, you know, you've had the standard, you've 01:10:23.329 --> 01:10:27.010 had a good strength and conditioning cycle in 01:10:27.010 --> 01:10:30.010 the academy. Now they're on the floor. What are 01:10:30.010 --> 01:10:33.029 some of the most common injuries that you're 01:10:33.029 --> 01:10:35.229 seeing? And are there any things that you're 01:10:35.229 --> 01:10:37.449 pulling your hair out going, we can avoid this 01:10:37.449 --> 01:10:41.909 if we just started doing this? Yeah, I'd say 01:10:41.909 --> 01:10:45.750 most the most common injuries across the tactical 01:10:45.750 --> 01:10:49.010 population is going to be shoulders, back and 01:10:49.010 --> 01:10:51.989 knees. And so so that's kind of the most common. 01:10:52.029 --> 01:10:54.369 And again, that's very general of like what's 01:10:54.369 --> 01:10:58.949 actually causing this. I have started doing like 01:10:58.949 --> 01:11:01.869 some injury prevention stuff. So I go out to 01:11:01.869 --> 01:11:04.569 the stations and it's weird in my role right 01:11:04.569 --> 01:11:06.789 now. So I'm hired as their health and wellness 01:11:06.789 --> 01:11:09.619 coach. So I'm not actually allowed to do physical 01:11:09.619 --> 01:11:12.180 therapy with my current classification. So, so 01:11:12.180 --> 01:11:14.720 that's a little bit challenging, but I'll go 01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:16.619 and like, Hey, do you like, what workshop do 01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:18.119 you guys want to do today? And let's say it's 01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:20.479 the shoulder workshop. I'll have them do a lot 01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:22.979 of like pre -test post -test. So range of motions, 01:11:22.979 --> 01:11:26.239 things that might hurt their shoulders. And then 01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:28.819 we go through a bunch of exercises and we retest. 01:11:28.819 --> 01:11:31.000 And it's one of those, like, if you happen to 01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:33.199 feel better after, whoops, it wasn't physical 01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:35.829 therapy. We were just exercising them. Now you 01:11:35.829 --> 01:11:40.649 feel better after. How cool. And a lot of them, 01:11:40.689 --> 01:11:42.590 most of the time, they're like, man, why don't 01:11:42.590 --> 01:11:46.409 I do this more? I don't know why. That took 10 01:11:46.409 --> 01:11:48.430 minutes. Why don't you guys do it more? And so 01:11:48.430 --> 01:11:51.649 I think one thing that I'm kind of like pulling 01:11:51.649 --> 01:11:55.930 my hair out a little bit is a lot of times in 01:11:55.930 --> 01:11:58.850 this population, we want to train very, very 01:11:58.850 --> 01:12:02.510 hard. Like we want to redline a lot. And so. 01:12:03.020 --> 01:12:05.039 pulling back the reins and being able to say 01:12:05.039 --> 01:12:07.479 like so for instance where our department is 01:12:07.479 --> 01:12:12.260 a 4896 hey i'm on day two i'm on day three i 01:12:12.260 --> 01:12:15.220 don't need to do a crazy workout today i still 01:12:15.220 --> 01:12:18.079 want to go be active but maybe i'll do some of 01:12:18.079 --> 01:12:20.779 that like hip injury prevention stuff maybe i'll 01:12:20.779 --> 01:12:23.680 go do this where i'm getting a benefit i'm still 01:12:23.680 --> 01:12:27.500 exercising but it is not a crazy energy expenditure 01:12:27.500 --> 01:12:30.340 so that if i do get a bad call or like it's just 01:12:30.340 --> 01:12:33.939 going to help me sleep better So that's one of 01:12:33.939 --> 01:12:35.979 my big missions right now is how do we introduce 01:12:35.979 --> 01:12:40.439 more of like mobility or stability training to 01:12:40.439 --> 01:12:43.000 help with injury prevention and overall wellness? 01:12:44.100 --> 01:12:47.060 I had Jeff Nichols on the show. I think it was 01:12:47.060 --> 01:12:49.979 the first time he came on. Former SEAL Team 6 01:12:49.979 --> 01:12:54.010 turned strength and conditioning coach. I used 01:12:54.010 --> 01:12:56.390 to have the mentality and I came from a background 01:12:56.390 --> 01:12:59.069 of being a coach and an athlete and an ex -phys 01:12:59.069 --> 01:13:01.250 major and all these things. But I would come 01:13:01.250 --> 01:13:02.630 off shift and go, all right, I'm going to go 01:13:02.630 --> 01:13:05.710 crush myself at the gym and sweat out the stress, 01:13:05.869 --> 01:13:08.630 air quotes. And something he said, but he was 01:13:08.630 --> 01:13:11.020 like, you're just adding stress to stress. And 01:13:11.020 --> 01:13:12.939 it just hit me like a, you know, lightning bolt. 01:13:13.020 --> 01:13:14.659 I'm like, God, I'm such an idiot. Of course. 01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:17.039 So kind of like you're saying, if you've done, 01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:18.979 you know, just say it's just a 24, not something 01:13:18.979 --> 01:13:22.479 insane, like a 48. That's my opinion. Um, you 01:13:22.479 --> 01:13:24.380 know, you come off shift and you barely slept 01:13:24.380 --> 01:13:26.039 and then they're like, okay, it's Murph today. 01:13:26.479 --> 01:13:29.020 Maybe just maybe, or Fran, that's not the one 01:13:29.020 --> 01:13:31.359 for you. Maybe just when everyone else is working 01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:34.399 out and just go take a one mile slow run or go 01:13:34.399 --> 01:13:37.199 for a walk with your dog or row or swim or something 01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:39.779 else. And the moment I realized that, yeah, when, 01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:42.760 when you, are stressed, adding a high intensity 01:13:42.760 --> 01:13:45.460 workout is not the time to do it. And like you 01:13:45.460 --> 01:13:47.800 said, you can take a different kind of workout, 01:13:47.979 --> 01:13:50.420 a low intensity one, and that will help bring 01:13:50.420 --> 01:13:53.220 the stress down. And then maybe after your first 01:13:53.220 --> 01:13:55.279 full night's sleep, that might be then, okay, 01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:59.479 today I can do that red line workout. Yeah, exactly. 01:13:59.819 --> 01:14:03.500 I recently gave an injury management lecture 01:14:03.500 --> 01:14:06.720 to our department and I had one of my guys just 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:09.439 got off of probation. I was talking about overtraining. 01:14:10.170 --> 01:14:12.149 And some of the signs, one of them would be like 01:14:12.149 --> 01:14:14.590 a decreased HRV, your heart rate variability. 01:14:14.810 --> 01:14:18.449 And that's essentially a, simply put, like how 01:14:18.449 --> 01:14:20.909 well is there a balance between your parasympathetic 01:14:20.909 --> 01:14:23.390 and sympathetic nervous systems? And if it's 01:14:23.390 --> 01:14:25.050 really low, like most of us are just in this 01:14:25.050 --> 01:14:27.270 like fight, fight, fight all the time. We're 01:14:27.270 --> 01:14:28.949 always fighting or fighting. We don't get that 01:14:28.949 --> 01:14:33.569 slow down, calm. And he came up to me after and 01:14:33.569 --> 01:14:35.390 he's like, hey, I have one of those Garmin watches 01:14:35.390 --> 01:14:40.010 and it is, I'm in the red all the time. It says 01:14:40.010 --> 01:14:43.250 like low or poor training readiness all the time. 01:14:43.310 --> 01:14:46.590 Like, why is that? Because you don't give yourself 01:14:46.590 --> 01:14:49.470 enough time to sleep. He's a young kid. Love 01:14:49.470 --> 01:14:52.369 him. I think he's like 23, 24, has two kids. 01:14:52.510 --> 01:14:56.050 So he's balancing it all at home and at work. 01:14:56.390 --> 01:14:59.569 And so I pulled him aside with his captain and 01:14:59.569 --> 01:15:02.590 I was like, hey, the next two days, all he gets 01:15:02.590 --> 01:15:05.250 to do is this. I have like a 20 minute hip and 01:15:05.250 --> 01:15:07.289 low back mobility video that I've shared with 01:15:07.289 --> 01:15:09.880 him. That's all he gets to do for exercise. And 01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:12.239 like, make sure he goes to, he's not the typical 01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:14.239 24 year old who's staying up till midnight at 01:15:14.239 --> 01:15:17.199 the station, like let him get some sleep. And 01:15:17.199 --> 01:15:18.979 I saw him a week and a half or two weeks later. 01:15:19.060 --> 01:15:21.800 He's like, I feel amazing. Like what is, why 01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:25.359 is it? Yeah. Like you don't have to train crazy 01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:28.319 hard all the time, right? We, we need to find 01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:31.680 that balance of training with intent, but not 01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:35.359 crushing yourself all the time. Absolutely. And 01:15:35.359 --> 01:15:38.159 with the 48, there's a Swedish study that Daniel 01:15:38.159 --> 01:15:41.119 Higuera shared with me. And they actually studied 01:15:41.119 --> 01:15:45.560 the 24 -72 in some busy departments. And this 01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:47.239 is a fit population. The Swedish firefighters 01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:49.979 are very fit. And they showed that it did take 01:15:49.979 --> 01:15:54.180 a full 72 hours to get close to baseline after 01:15:54.180 --> 01:15:56.880 24. And if you listen to all the people in the 01:15:56.880 --> 01:15:59.479 sleep medicine world, a 48 hour. straight without 01:15:59.479 --> 01:16:02.300 sleep or disruptive sleep is just crazy. And 01:16:02.300 --> 01:16:03.840 I think another thing that people don't think 01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:06.680 about, and you kind of alluded to, is the more 01:16:06.680 --> 01:16:08.979 tired we are, the more chances there are also 01:16:08.979 --> 01:16:11.479 for slips and falls and just, you know, other 01:16:11.479 --> 01:16:15.100 ways to injure ourselves. So I'm a big, big opponent 01:16:15.100 --> 01:16:18.300 of the 48 hours because, you know, it's not my 01:16:18.300 --> 01:16:20.500 opinion at all. It's literally just science. 01:16:20.640 --> 01:16:24.159 Like if you ask anyone about sleep, the big kind 01:16:24.159 --> 01:16:25.960 of aha moment for me was when you think, okay, 01:16:25.960 --> 01:16:28.020 well, when do people use sleep deprivation deliberately? 01:16:28.729 --> 01:16:32.250 And it's for special forces selection, interrogation, 01:16:32.250 --> 01:16:35.909 and torture. So if that doesn't underline that 01:16:35.909 --> 01:16:38.729 we shouldn't be sleepless for multiple days in 01:16:38.729 --> 01:16:41.949 a row in a life -saving profession, then I don't 01:16:41.949 --> 01:16:47.409 know what does. Yeah, I have every year, we have 01:16:47.409 --> 01:16:49.850 what we call coach's drill. So almost all of 01:16:49.850 --> 01:16:51.909 our membership comes through and we do like their 01:16:51.909 --> 01:16:56.409 hearing test. SCBA mask fits, but then I have 01:16:56.409 --> 01:16:59.529 like a fitness portion and assessments and something 01:16:59.529 --> 01:17:01.930 that I would want to do. It feels complicated 01:17:01.930 --> 01:17:04.449 to try to figure it out, but is looking at the 01:17:04.449 --> 01:17:07.750 averages of individuals on day one. Like if they 01:17:07.750 --> 01:17:10.329 came in on their day one versus this crew came 01:17:10.329 --> 01:17:12.890 in on day two versus these people are on day 01:17:12.890 --> 01:17:15.529 three. And let's look at like the performance 01:17:15.529 --> 01:17:20.050 standards and even simple things following very 01:17:20.050 --> 01:17:23.000 simple directions. I joked around that. So we 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:25.600 have almost 600 people coming through this. You 01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:28.000 know, those dog buttons that you can hit, like 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:30.140 walk, like I want to go for a walk or I want 01:17:30.140 --> 01:17:33.340 food. You know what I'm talking about? By the 01:17:33.340 --> 01:17:35.180 end of this month, I wanted those in my office 01:17:35.180 --> 01:17:37.300 so I could just hit the stuff that I kept repeating 01:17:37.300 --> 01:17:39.760 for them because they can't follow simple cues. 01:17:40.560 --> 01:17:44.060 And you guys are who we're calling for when we 01:17:44.060 --> 01:17:49.560 need help. This is very alarming. And obviously, 01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:52.479 yeah, they snap to it when the time comes, but 01:17:52.479 --> 01:17:55.619 it's still how many times can you do that over 01:17:55.619 --> 01:17:58.560 a chronic period of time? Yeah. I mean, I'm all 01:17:58.560 --> 01:18:00.479 for the 24 -hour shifts. People get nervous. 01:18:00.539 --> 01:18:02.279 They talk about shifts and, oh, we'll just do 01:18:02.279 --> 01:18:05.079 12s. And it's like, no, there's glaring evidence 01:18:05.079 --> 01:18:07.039 that's not a healthy shift, bouncing from day 01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:08.840 to night in the circadian rhythm. And look at 01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:11.060 the people that do, the ER doctors and nurses 01:18:11.060 --> 01:18:13.579 and the police officers, many of whom are not 01:18:13.579 --> 01:18:17.350 a pillar of health. But if you take that same 01:18:17.350 --> 01:18:18.949 model and you put it, all right, well, then would 01:18:18.949 --> 01:18:21.869 you want the pilot that you're flying with to 01:18:21.869 --> 01:18:24.409 have not slept for two days? What about the truck 01:18:24.409 --> 01:18:26.430 driver? You know what I mean? You put it in other 01:18:26.430 --> 01:18:28.869 professions, you go, hell no. So then, you know, 01:18:28.949 --> 01:18:32.050 you're a neurosurgeon. Then why, like you said, 01:18:32.109 --> 01:18:35.210 you wake up from a dead sleep, 3 a .m., slide 01:18:35.210 --> 01:18:37.329 down the pole, drive the back of a tiller, go 01:18:37.329 --> 01:18:40.090 to a structure fire, throw a ladder, climb, make 01:18:40.090 --> 01:18:42.550 entry in a second floor bedroom window, find 01:18:42.550 --> 01:18:44.979 a child. take them out of the window, doff your 01:18:44.979 --> 01:18:48.039 gear, now start working a pediatric cardiac arrest 01:18:48.039 --> 01:18:51.140 algorithm, and you're okay to have not slept 01:18:51.140 --> 01:18:53.800 for 48 hours straight and worked 56 or 80 hours, 01:18:54.020 --> 01:18:56.020 but the person that made you a coffee yesterday 01:18:56.020 --> 01:18:58.920 taps out at 40. You know what I mean? It makes 01:18:58.920 --> 01:19:02.380 no sense whatsoever. It really doesn't. I agree. 01:19:02.600 --> 01:19:06.020 I agree. These are the big system changes. The 01:19:06.020 --> 01:19:10.199 old big ships turn slowly, right? So we just 01:19:10.199 --> 01:19:12.020 got to keep... trying to nudge it in the right 01:19:12.020 --> 01:19:14.460 direction and hopefully we'll get there soon. 01:19:15.020 --> 01:19:17.500 Yeah. Well, I always said they, they sure as 01:19:17.500 --> 01:19:19.500 shit stopped a big ship in its tracks during 01:19:19.500 --> 01:19:22.420 COVID. So I think in that analogy, enough people 01:19:22.420 --> 01:19:24.020 want to make it happen. It will just happen. 01:19:24.319 --> 01:19:27.520 Simple as that. So, all right, well then moving 01:19:27.520 --> 01:19:30.020 on a world that I'm very familiar with. I've 01:19:30.020 --> 01:19:32.220 had meniscus surgeries on both knees. I had that 01:19:32.220 --> 01:19:36.460 back injury and all three times rehab myself 01:19:36.460 --> 01:19:39.180 all the way back to fully fit for duty. If we 01:19:39.180 --> 01:19:41.659 get that. you know, skyscraper fire on the first 01:19:41.659 --> 01:19:44.640 day, I was ready, absolutely ready for it. But 01:19:44.640 --> 01:19:47.800 where the bar was, if I wasn't someone that came 01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:49.619 from an ex -phys and strength and conditioning 01:19:49.619 --> 01:19:52.140 background, would have been a lot lower. And 01:19:52.140 --> 01:19:54.020 I would argue that I wouldn't have been ready. 01:19:54.079 --> 01:19:55.899 And maybe even the possibility of re -injury 01:19:55.899 --> 01:19:58.399 would have been there. So talk to me now with 01:19:58.399 --> 01:20:01.970 your physical therapist hat on. about the tactical 01:20:01.970 --> 01:20:04.649 athlete the firefighter who has been hurt whether 01:20:04.649 --> 01:20:06.329 they're rehabbing whether they had surgery and 01:20:06.329 --> 01:20:09.310 then rehabbing after that and how we get them 01:20:09.310 --> 01:20:12.710 to fully operational before they get back on 01:20:12.710 --> 01:20:17.250 the rig yeah that's where we really like first 01:20:17.250 --> 01:20:19.909 off need to find what we refer to as a culturally 01:20:19.909 --> 01:20:22.770 competent or just physical therapists or clinicians 01:20:22.770 --> 01:20:26.710 that are aware of the job requirements what you 01:20:26.710 --> 01:20:30.840 guys have to do and are testing things in a very 01:20:30.840 --> 01:20:34.199 objective way. And so we need to be doing like, 01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:36.539 one thing I like about our current fitness tests 01:20:36.539 --> 01:20:39.460 is I'm getting not only seeing where people are 01:20:39.460 --> 01:20:42.060 at and how can I help, but if these individuals 01:20:42.060 --> 01:20:44.619 get hurt, now I have their healthy baselines. 01:20:44.840 --> 01:20:47.859 And so I'm using that sort of data as part of 01:20:47.859 --> 01:20:50.779 our reintroduction to work. It's not necessarily 01:20:50.779 --> 01:20:52.880 the barrier, like if they pass the minimum, they 01:20:52.880 --> 01:20:55.340 still get in, but I can start working on their 01:20:55.340 --> 01:20:58.010 strength and conditioning at that point. But 01:20:58.010 --> 01:21:00.890 we really have to have a good conversation with 01:21:00.890 --> 01:21:03.949 our clinicians of here's what I'm doing. How 01:21:03.949 --> 01:21:06.270 does the treatment that you're giving me, like 01:21:06.270 --> 01:21:08.310 what is the intent and how does it get me to 01:21:08.310 --> 01:21:12.409 where I need to be? So having really good, transparent 01:21:12.409 --> 01:21:14.609 discussions with our providers is important. 01:21:16.090 --> 01:21:18.590 One of the, I think it was a PT as well, a long 01:21:18.590 --> 01:21:22.010 time ago said to me that when you feel like an 01:21:22.010 --> 01:21:25.460 injury. is healed when you feel pain -free is 01:21:25.460 --> 01:21:28.300 actually only at about 80%. And that's where 01:21:28.300 --> 01:21:30.159 the danger of re -injury is. I don't know if 01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:32.800 you want to elaborate on that. Yeah, absolutely. 01:21:33.079 --> 01:21:36.880 We are not treating just for symptoms, which 01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:38.960 is what we're feeling. We're treating for function 01:21:38.960 --> 01:21:42.159 as well. And that's where a lot of, whether you 01:21:42.159 --> 01:21:44.100 have things like the force blades, things like 01:21:44.100 --> 01:21:47.619 dynamometers. So like a dynamometer, a lot of 01:21:47.619 --> 01:21:50.060 us are familiar with it with grip strength. but 01:21:50.060 --> 01:21:51.899 you can have them where they have compressive 01:21:51.899 --> 01:21:54.319 forces or tensile forces, and you can test pretty 01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:57.300 much every muscle in the body. So comparing side 01:21:57.300 --> 01:22:00.220 to side, making sure you are fully good. I think 01:22:00.220 --> 01:22:03.119 having that helps not just identify where are 01:22:03.119 --> 01:22:06.500 continued areas for improvement, but also helps 01:22:06.500 --> 01:22:09.239 you see, okay, like James, you're my patient. 01:22:09.819 --> 01:22:12.260 Yes, you feel great. You feel like you're ready 01:22:12.260 --> 01:22:15.279 to go back, but your injured side is only 75 01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:18.479 % strong compared to your uninjured side. Which 01:22:18.479 --> 01:22:20.380 even that sometimes you could argue, is your 01:22:20.380 --> 01:22:24.000 uninjured side weaker than it should be? That's 01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:27.199 a whole different rabbit hole. But we need to 01:22:27.199 --> 01:22:29.380 figure out like, it's not just the symptoms we're 01:22:29.380 --> 01:22:32.199 treating, it is the function. And that is really 01:22:32.199 --> 01:22:36.399 what prepares you to get back to the job. Another 01:22:36.399 --> 01:22:38.260 thing that I saw, because obviously, like I said, 01:22:38.300 --> 01:22:40.039 three times, firstly, there was a kind of push 01:22:40.039 --> 01:22:42.340 to go to light duty. And what I did when I got 01:22:42.340 --> 01:22:44.239 her up was like, well, I'm a full time rehab 01:22:44.239 --> 01:22:46.609 now. And I've got, like I mentioned, Cairo and 01:22:46.609 --> 01:22:49.670 the gym and PT and all the other things I was 01:22:49.670 --> 01:22:52.189 doing, yoga, anything I could do. And it was 01:22:52.189 --> 01:22:54.710 almost a full -time job just trying to rehab 01:22:54.710 --> 01:22:57.250 this injury so I could get back successfully, 01:22:57.649 --> 01:22:59.409 which I did every time. So obviously that worked. 01:23:00.109 --> 01:23:02.670 But the pull to either go to light duty, where 01:23:02.670 --> 01:23:05.270 I would argue you can't then do a lot of this 01:23:05.270 --> 01:23:07.590 unless you've got, I mean, you might be going 01:23:07.590 --> 01:23:09.949 to a PT session, but now you're then... kneeling 01:23:09.949 --> 01:23:12.289 on the floor filing for six hours after that. 01:23:12.930 --> 01:23:16.369 Or there's this kind of mythology that there's 01:23:16.369 --> 01:23:18.770 a badge of honor about getting back quicker than 01:23:18.770 --> 01:23:21.369 the doctor told you as well. Like the department's 01:23:21.369 --> 01:23:23.189 just going to put you on a pedestal and they're 01:23:23.189 --> 01:23:25.210 all going to applaud for you. No one seems to 01:23:25.210 --> 01:23:27.949 give a shit. So that resistance to not feeling 01:23:27.949 --> 01:23:30.310 driven to go back. And I'm not talking about 01:23:30.310 --> 01:23:33.609 sandbagging, but not rushing the process to get 01:23:33.609 --> 01:23:38.020 back. under the kind of false pretenses that 01:23:38.020 --> 01:23:43.779 that's a good employee thing. Yeah, I feel like 01:23:43.779 --> 01:23:46.460 I see both ends of the spectrum with that. I 01:23:46.460 --> 01:23:48.579 think, you know, something I've heard on your 01:23:48.579 --> 01:23:52.319 podcast, again, the cost of living here in California, 01:23:52.579 --> 01:23:55.119 people often don't live in the city that they 01:23:55.119 --> 01:23:57.600 work in. So when you put them on a light duty, 01:23:57.760 --> 01:24:01.430 especially if it's a 5 .8s or 4 .10s, They joke 01:24:01.430 --> 01:24:04.050 nothing heals you faster than light duty, right? 01:24:04.149 --> 01:24:05.590 Like they don't want to commute all the time. 01:24:06.189 --> 01:24:09.010 So we get people that rush back too soon. And 01:24:09.010 --> 01:24:11.750 then you also get the people who do milk the 01:24:11.750 --> 01:24:14.750 system. They're off for a year or two for something 01:24:14.750 --> 01:24:18.510 minor and you don't know what's going on. I think 01:24:18.510 --> 01:24:22.710 that's where one of my goals is building this 01:24:22.710 --> 01:24:25.810 internal wellness division that we're trying 01:24:25.810 --> 01:24:28.680 to strive for right now in Sacramento is. if 01:24:28.680 --> 01:24:30.560 i'm actually able to be the physical therapist 01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:34.119 and we now you like james you're hurt you're 01:24:34.119 --> 01:24:36.020 coming into training and yes you're on light 01:24:36.020 --> 01:24:40.180 duty but you're here at the gym with the pt we're 01:24:40.180 --> 01:24:41.819 working on strength and conditioning like we 01:24:41.819 --> 01:24:45.460 can help with that bridge the gap and maybe you're 01:24:45.460 --> 01:24:47.420 helping drive rigs around and stuff because obviously 01:24:47.420 --> 01:24:49.979 you can't be working out all day but finding 01:24:49.979 --> 01:24:53.500 that balance of still serving a role in the department 01:24:53.500 --> 01:24:57.359 but having the time needed to actually get healthy 01:24:57.720 --> 01:24:59.739 Like you said, that should be your full -time 01:24:59.739 --> 01:25:03.000 job is to get healthy enough to get back to your 01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:07.380 full -time job. Going back to the fitness standards 01:25:07.380 --> 01:25:09.840 and the type of candidate at the front door, 01:25:10.060 --> 01:25:16.500 talk to me about the improvement in overcoming 01:25:16.500 --> 01:25:18.699 an injury, rehabbing from injury, if you were 01:25:18.699 --> 01:25:22.279 already in good shape prior. Yeah, it's huge. 01:25:22.439 --> 01:25:25.720 If you just have a baseline level of mobility 01:25:25.720 --> 01:25:29.140 and strength, your ability to recover is going 01:25:29.140 --> 01:25:33.060 to be greater versus if you, let's say for shoulder 01:25:33.060 --> 01:25:35.220 pain specifically, a big thing that I think gets 01:25:35.220 --> 01:25:38.439 overlooked is thoracic mobility. So for those 01:25:38.439 --> 01:25:40.380 listening, thoracic would be like your mid -back, 01:25:40.460 --> 01:25:43.539 the levels of your spine that the ribs attach 01:25:43.539 --> 01:25:47.460 to. So poor thoracic mobility has a big, big 01:25:47.460 --> 01:25:50.140 correlation to shoulder pain and neck pain. If 01:25:50.140 --> 01:25:52.560 you aren't on top of that, your shoulder range 01:25:52.560 --> 01:25:54.739 motion's bad, and then all of a sudden you hurt 01:25:54.739 --> 01:25:57.010 your shoulder or thrown a ladder, Yeah, your 01:25:57.010 --> 01:25:59.649 recovery is going to be worse versus if you've 01:25:59.649 --> 01:26:02.869 done all that pre -work and then the latter injury 01:26:02.869 --> 01:26:05.350 still happens. One, it's probably less likely 01:26:05.350 --> 01:26:07.810 going to happen, but your recovery is going to 01:26:07.810 --> 01:26:11.770 be significantly better. Absolutely. And then 01:26:11.770 --> 01:26:14.729 let's talk about the aging firefighter. Again, 01:26:14.909 --> 01:26:17.229 you know, none of us are pretending that the 01:26:17.229 --> 01:26:20.409 50 year old is, you know, if they're both of 01:26:20.409 --> 01:26:25.210 the same kind of level, the 50 year old. They 01:26:25.210 --> 01:26:26.750 would have been the same level at 18 is what 01:26:26.750 --> 01:26:28.369 I'm saying. The 50 -year -old now obviously is 01:26:28.369 --> 01:26:30.289 not going to be able to be as strong and as fit 01:26:30.289 --> 01:26:33.229 as the 18 -year -old if they've been through 01:26:33.229 --> 01:26:35.510 20, 25 years in the meat grinder. But that 50 01:26:35.510 --> 01:26:37.789 -year -old has been diligent and taking care 01:26:37.789 --> 01:26:39.930 of themselves, is still going to the gym, still 01:26:39.930 --> 01:26:43.270 doing mobility. What are some of the factors 01:26:43.270 --> 01:26:47.109 for the aging tactical athlete, not lowering 01:26:47.109 --> 01:26:48.970 standards and that kind of thing, but just to 01:26:48.970 --> 01:26:53.380 help them maintain? maintain their performance 01:26:53.380 --> 01:26:55.420 so that they can have a healthy retirement and 01:26:55.420 --> 01:26:57.300 not be riddled with ailments once they leave 01:26:57.300 --> 01:27:03.960 yeah i think the the over training thing realizing 01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:06.399 like as you get into your 30s 40s and beyond 01:27:06.399 --> 01:27:09.380 that you don't need to be in that red line all 01:27:09.380 --> 01:27:14.560 the time and accepting that exercise whether 01:27:14.560 --> 01:27:17.989 it is it looks like physical therapy and it's 01:27:17.989 --> 01:27:19.810 just some mobility or some light strengthening 01:27:19.810 --> 01:27:22.229 like that is still beneficial for your health 01:27:22.229 --> 01:27:25.090 and wellness that is something that honestly 01:27:25.090 --> 01:27:27.770 i don't think a lot of our firefighters it's 01:27:27.770 --> 01:27:29.770 hard to tell them that because they get excited 01:27:29.770 --> 01:27:31.090 they're like oh you mean i don't have to work 01:27:31.090 --> 01:27:35.090 out hard anymore great because it hurts but also 01:27:35.090 --> 01:27:38.729 you still need to put in that work that just 01:27:38.729 --> 01:27:42.550 30 minutes on the elliptical twice a week three 01:27:42.550 --> 01:27:44.550 times a week like that's also not going to cut 01:27:44.550 --> 01:27:47.199 it right so you You need to find that balance 01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:50.319 of not super low level, but it doesn't have to 01:27:50.319 --> 01:27:53.800 be super high level. I'm a big believer, and 01:27:53.800 --> 01:27:56.239 this is kind of how our Academy Fitness runs 01:27:56.239 --> 01:27:58.739 in what would be more like functional fitness. 01:27:59.079 --> 01:28:02.600 So a lot of push, pull, carry, squat, hinge, 01:28:02.760 --> 01:28:06.439 and lunge. And how do you work those into your 01:28:06.439 --> 01:28:10.399 everyday workouts? So especially for our tactical 01:28:10.399 --> 01:28:13.819 population, we don't have the benefit of kickoffs 01:28:13.819 --> 01:28:18.279 at Sunday at noon. Every day we might be going. 01:28:18.439 --> 01:28:20.899 So coming up with a good strength and conditioning 01:28:20.899 --> 01:28:23.380 program is a little more challenging. And so 01:28:23.380 --> 01:28:26.020 that's where I'll mix in. I won't do like chest 01:28:26.020 --> 01:28:28.520 day or back and bys day. And then those areas 01:28:28.520 --> 01:28:31.520 are super sore. I kind of sprinkle in everything 01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:33.979 throughout the week. So you get the same amount 01:28:33.979 --> 01:28:36.560 of volume and you get the exercise benefits, 01:28:36.680 --> 01:28:39.819 but you don't have that like my body just got 01:28:39.819 --> 01:28:42.789 beat up feeling. And so that's what I work on, 01:28:42.930 --> 01:28:44.909 even with our young people that try to develop 01:28:44.909 --> 01:28:47.930 habits, but definitely our older firefighters. 01:28:49.329 --> 01:28:52.590 At 51, one of the kind of realizations I've had 01:28:52.590 --> 01:28:55.090 is, you know, I'm not going to be, unless for 01:28:55.090 --> 01:28:57.250 some reason I decide I want to get into powerlifting 01:28:57.250 --> 01:29:00.529 100%, at 51 as an all -round athlete, I'm not 01:29:00.529 --> 01:29:03.409 going to be getting even stronger than I was 01:29:03.409 --> 01:29:06.949 when I was 30, for example. But I'm fit, I'm 01:29:06.949 --> 01:29:10.729 strong. where my limitations are on my mobility. 01:29:10.949 --> 01:29:14.329 So I feel like that if I focus more on that now, 01:29:14.529 --> 01:29:18.550 I create more strength, more endurance by moving 01:29:18.550 --> 01:29:22.289 more efficiently versus trying to chase endurance 01:29:22.289 --> 01:29:25.510 and chase strength training in my middle age. 01:29:27.210 --> 01:29:31.050 Yeah, yeah, it's a delicate balance, right? I 01:29:31.050 --> 01:29:32.829 think one thing I was just thinking about, as 01:29:32.829 --> 01:29:35.949 you were saying, chasing the mobility too. that 01:29:35.949 --> 01:29:37.989 I try to work on with everybody, but definitely 01:29:37.989 --> 01:29:41.909 our older guys is having a good warmup. I don't 01:29:41.909 --> 01:29:44.029 think can be overstressed. And a lot of people 01:29:44.029 --> 01:29:45.810 are like, ah, if I warm up and then the tones 01:29:45.810 --> 01:29:48.329 go off, like then I didn't get to do my workout. 01:29:48.649 --> 01:29:51.590 Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. But 01:29:51.590 --> 01:29:54.390 if you have an intentional warmup where you're 01:29:54.390 --> 01:29:56.569 going through both mobility and some sort of 01:29:56.569 --> 01:29:59.050 like muscle activation, strengthening, worst 01:29:59.050 --> 01:30:00.930 case scenario, you got some injury prevention 01:30:00.930 --> 01:30:03.609 in. Best case scenario, you got to still work 01:30:03.609 --> 01:30:05.329 out and you got way more out of that workout 01:30:05.329 --> 01:30:07.850 than you would if you just jump in cold turkey. 01:30:09.289 --> 01:30:11.909 Absolutely. You mentioned as well about some 01:30:11.909 --> 01:30:15.590 of the movement patterns. I am a weekend warrior 01:30:15.590 --> 01:30:17.829 coach, never been like a full -time coach, but 01:30:17.829 --> 01:30:20.069 I teach once a week, a free class here in town. 01:30:20.189 --> 01:30:23.710 And throughout my career as well, I really love 01:30:23.710 --> 01:30:26.789 the strongman implements. So, you know, the sleds 01:30:26.789 --> 01:30:28.510 and the sandbags and the kettlebells and some 01:30:28.510 --> 01:30:31.699 of these other things. Firstly, and most importantly, 01:30:31.739 --> 01:30:33.840 because they really mirror what we do. We do 01:30:33.840 --> 01:30:36.340 push, we do pull, we do drag, we do climb. But 01:30:36.340 --> 01:30:38.720 the other thing was, especially when you have 01:30:38.720 --> 01:30:40.500 some of the firefighters that have found themselves 01:30:40.500 --> 01:30:43.880 deconditioned, if you ask them to do an Olympic 01:30:43.880 --> 01:30:46.319 snatch, you know, and then an overhead squat, 01:30:46.579 --> 01:30:48.960 you know, between the mobility and just simply 01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:51.420 the skill of the movement, there's a huge fear 01:30:51.420 --> 01:30:53.619 of I'm going to look stupid. And I fully understand 01:30:53.619 --> 01:30:56.340 that. But if you tell someone, pick that sandbag 01:30:56.340 --> 01:30:58.220 up and just walk over there and put it down by 01:30:58.220 --> 01:31:01.239 the cone. And there's this kind of you remove 01:31:01.239 --> 01:31:03.579 that fear of, oh, what if everyone thinks, you 01:31:03.579 --> 01:31:05.859 know, what if I can't do it? So I love the simplicity 01:31:05.859 --> 01:31:08.220 of those movements because it takes away that 01:31:08.220 --> 01:31:10.399 fear of, you know, what's everyone going to think 01:31:10.399 --> 01:31:12.479 or the frustration of trying to do a movement. 01:31:12.539 --> 01:31:15.079 A squat is a very, very technical movement. So 01:31:15.079 --> 01:31:17.600 talk to me about some of your favorite kind of 01:31:17.600 --> 01:31:19.460 implements and tools that you use on the strength 01:31:19.460 --> 01:31:23.140 and conditioning side to mirror what we do. Yeah, 01:31:23.140 --> 01:31:27.899 I. I just kind of caveat to what you're not caveat 01:31:27.899 --> 01:31:30.600 following up from what you were saying is having 01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:33.399 people be successful. Like you still want them 01:31:33.399 --> 01:31:35.979 to be challenging, but are challenged, but you 01:31:35.979 --> 01:31:38.239 don't want them to feel like walking out of the 01:31:38.239 --> 01:31:40.479 gym of like, wow, that sucked because now you 01:31:40.479 --> 01:31:42.720 just lost them. Right. So, so finding that balance. 01:31:42.800 --> 01:31:44.560 And that's where I agree, not having something 01:31:44.560 --> 01:31:47.060 super technical, like overhead squat snatch. 01:31:47.789 --> 01:31:50.510 i was into crossfit for a while myself and it 01:31:50.510 --> 01:31:53.069 is like there's a lot of skill movements with 01:31:53.069 --> 01:31:56.949 that that aren't necessary for our job but i 01:31:56.949 --> 01:32:00.210 add in a lot of because we're trying to also 01:32:00.210 --> 01:32:02.489 make these workouts time efficient right because 01:32:02.489 --> 01:32:05.270 we're all busy in our lives typically our workouts 01:32:05.270 --> 01:32:09.029 are 30 to 40 minutes max and then with a warm 01:32:09.029 --> 01:32:13.909 -up before that but it is a lot of twisting a 01:32:13.909 --> 01:32:18.369 lot of multi -planar stuff so i'll add in like 01:32:18.369 --> 01:32:20.810 uh one thing i'll call is like a stagger stance 01:32:20.810 --> 01:32:24.550 romanian deadlift so imagine you're picking up 01:32:24.550 --> 01:32:26.890 a patient who's stuck between the toilet and 01:32:26.890 --> 01:32:29.810 the shower and right we're not going to have 01:32:29.810 --> 01:32:32.229 perfect deadlift technique so how do i get used 01:32:32.229 --> 01:32:35.510 to deadlifting with a little bit of a twist and 01:32:35.510 --> 01:32:38.970 we'll do that mostly with kettlebells or um using 01:32:38.970 --> 01:32:41.869 landmines for that's one of my go -to's for training 01:32:41.869 --> 01:32:44.470 somebody who's struggling with ladders is how 01:32:44.470 --> 01:32:47.649 do we work on that transition of a ladder pickup 01:32:47.649 --> 01:32:50.550 to shoulder press and really use their body right 01:32:50.550 --> 01:32:53.050 you're getting those twisting multi -directional 01:32:53.050 --> 01:32:56.229 patterns in rather than just our traditional 01:32:56.229 --> 01:32:59.430 bodybuilding stuff is going to be much better 01:32:59.430 --> 01:33:02.989 for aesthetics sure but you're just training 01:33:02.989 --> 01:33:06.270 one joint in isolation which is not how we live 01:33:08.300 --> 01:33:11.539 Let's go to nutrition, hydration. What are some 01:33:11.539 --> 01:33:13.520 of the principles? Because I mean, everyone will 01:33:13.520 --> 01:33:15.239 tell you that their way of eating is the best 01:33:15.239 --> 01:33:17.579 way if they're selling a program for it. But 01:33:17.579 --> 01:33:20.079 overall for this population, what are some of 01:33:20.079 --> 01:33:22.420 the principles that you usually tell your firefighters 01:33:22.420 --> 01:33:24.939 when it comes to the hydration side and then 01:33:24.939 --> 01:33:28.760 the nutrition side? I'll start with hydration. 01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:32.739 So general, general principle is we should be 01:33:32.739 --> 01:33:35.260 aiming for half of our body weight in ounces 01:33:35.260 --> 01:33:37.979 per day. So if I weigh 200 pounds, I should be 01:33:37.979 --> 01:33:41.520 starting with at least 100 ounces and then increase 01:33:41.520 --> 01:33:43.460 that if you're spending a lot of time out on 01:33:43.460 --> 01:33:45.739 the drill ground. That's where if you want to 01:33:45.739 --> 01:33:47.979 get really specific with it, you can weigh yourself. 01:33:48.140 --> 01:33:49.840 Like if you're in the academy, weigh yourself 01:33:49.840 --> 01:33:51.500 in the morning, weigh yourself when you come 01:33:51.500 --> 01:33:53.760 back from home. That'll give you a good idea 01:33:53.760 --> 01:33:56.000 of how much fluid you lost and how much fluid 01:33:56.000 --> 01:33:57.920 you need to put back in your system to get ready 01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:01.130 for the next day. Another thing I'll let people 01:34:01.130 --> 01:34:03.430 know is like if you're a salty sweater, you see 01:34:03.430 --> 01:34:05.050 it on your hat, your shirt, like kind of those 01:34:05.050 --> 01:34:07.689 white stains, we need to definitely add some 01:34:07.689 --> 01:34:10.109 electrolytes for you. I think a lot of us got 01:34:10.109 --> 01:34:12.829 so scared of especially like high sodium in our 01:34:12.829 --> 01:34:15.789 foods. And granted, the general American diet 01:34:15.789 --> 01:34:19.550 is still very high in sodium. But if we're burning 01:34:19.550 --> 01:34:21.470 a lot of electrolytes, especially you live in 01:34:21.470 --> 01:34:23.909 a place like Florida, it's hot in California, 01:34:23.949 --> 01:34:26.710 you're sweating out a lot of your salt. Like 01:34:26.710 --> 01:34:29.060 you need to add those electrolytes back in. for 01:34:29.060 --> 01:34:34.100 sure. There is always a caveat. I feel like last 01:34:34.100 --> 01:34:36.779 year we had one recruit who was saying he was 01:34:36.779 --> 01:34:39.119 thirsty all the time. He was drinking so much 01:34:39.119 --> 01:34:42.600 water, blah, blah. And then the follow -up question 01:34:42.600 --> 01:34:44.640 was like, how many, I think he was using elements. 01:34:44.899 --> 01:34:46.779 And I think he was using five or six elements 01:34:46.779 --> 01:34:49.359 a day. He's like, okay, yeah, you're basically 01:34:49.359 --> 01:34:51.460 just consuming salt water. Of course you're thirsty. 01:34:51.819 --> 01:34:54.739 So you have to find that balance of water with 01:34:54.739 --> 01:34:58.609 electrolytes. But yeah, that is a big one. And 01:34:58.609 --> 01:35:01.630 sticking with the hydration, not only is that 01:35:01.630 --> 01:35:03.989 good for just general health and wellness, but 01:35:03.989 --> 01:35:06.130 if we think about it from an injury standpoint 01:35:06.130 --> 01:35:09.890 as well, I like to use the example of our tissues 01:35:09.890 --> 01:35:12.649 being like beef. And when we are hydrated, it 01:35:12.649 --> 01:35:15.430 is a nice, soft, supple steak where it's malleable. 01:35:15.449 --> 01:35:19.329 It can move and not break versus dehydrated beef 01:35:19.329 --> 01:35:22.439 jerky, right? And I can shred it easily. lowering 01:35:22.439 --> 01:35:24.699 your risk of tendon and musculoskeletal injuries 01:35:24.699 --> 01:35:28.720 as well as big with hydration. What about energy 01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:31.260 drinks? I'm hearing a lot of stories of rhabdo 01:35:31.260 --> 01:35:33.119 and some of these other areas. You know, you've 01:35:33.119 --> 01:35:35.199 got these young people just slamming monsters 01:35:35.199 --> 01:35:37.479 and God knows what. Talk to me about that whole 01:35:37.479 --> 01:35:40.670 thing. I try to encourage people to avoid them 01:35:40.670 --> 01:35:43.109 at all costs. I think there's so much stuff in 01:35:43.109 --> 01:35:47.210 them. The rhabdo is a big concern, but just everything 01:35:47.210 --> 01:35:49.869 that's in it, as much as possible, avoid the 01:35:49.869 --> 01:35:51.949 energy drinks. I see people pack them in their 01:35:51.949 --> 01:35:55.800 coolers when they're jumping on the medic. Obviously, 01:35:55.819 --> 01:35:58.060 you need to do what you need to do to stay awake, 01:35:58.140 --> 01:36:00.380 but I think there are a lot better alternatives. 01:36:00.479 --> 01:36:03.319 I'd rather have somebody have some caffeine tea 01:36:03.319 --> 01:36:07.500 or something like that than just slamming monsters. 01:36:07.859 --> 01:36:10.979 Yeah, that's some people's breakfast of champions, 01:36:11.220 --> 01:36:15.579 unfortunately. Yeah, there's an amazing cognitive 01:36:15.579 --> 01:36:18.380 supplement called sleep that people can get for 01:36:18.380 --> 01:36:23.579 free. Yeah, absolutely. If only. All right, what 01:36:23.579 --> 01:36:26.720 about the nutritional side then? So nutrition, 01:36:26.920 --> 01:36:30.600 I will caveat like my, my specialty is in the 01:36:30.600 --> 01:36:33.140 musculoskeletal stuff. So I'm, I'm not a nutritionist 01:36:33.140 --> 01:36:35.359 by any means. I've been doing a lot more studying 01:36:35.359 --> 01:36:38.739 on that, but I take a very simple approach with 01:36:38.739 --> 01:36:41.979 nutrition of calories in calories out. We were 01:36:41.979 --> 01:36:44.539 lucky that we got like a, one of the higher level 01:36:44.539 --> 01:36:47.279 in bodies in recently. So that's your body composition. 01:36:47.859 --> 01:36:50.979 And so I'll have our new recruits jump on that. 01:36:51.020 --> 01:36:53.800 And that gives an estimate of not just their 01:36:53.800 --> 01:36:56.520 body fat, but their basal metabolic rate. And 01:36:56.520 --> 01:36:58.899 so for those listening that don't know what that 01:36:58.899 --> 01:37:01.319 is, I call it like your survival calories. So 01:37:01.319 --> 01:37:04.859 if all I did is lay on the couch and walk to 01:37:04.859 --> 01:37:06.640 the bathroom as needed, that's how many calories 01:37:06.640 --> 01:37:10.479 I would burn per day. And then you add your calories 01:37:10.479 --> 01:37:13.420 to that with exercise, with activity, the physical 01:37:13.420 --> 01:37:16.500 demands of the job, all of that. And so we kind 01:37:16.500 --> 01:37:19.399 of talk about set this framework of, for example, 01:37:19.949 --> 01:37:22.409 my active calories plus my basal metabolic rate 01:37:22.409 --> 01:37:26.590 is 2500 i need to eat that many calories to maintain 01:37:26.590 --> 01:37:31.029 my weight if i'm the skinny 125 year old or 125 01:37:31.029 --> 01:37:33.949 pound kid here's how much you should eat to gain 01:37:33.949 --> 01:37:36.449 weight if you need to lose weight here's how 01:37:36.449 --> 01:37:40.189 much and i generally shoot for people to have 01:37:40.189 --> 01:37:45.229 a 500 to a thousand calorie max deficit so 500 01:37:45.229 --> 01:37:47.729 calories per day deficit would be a pound a week 01:37:47.729 --> 01:37:49.979 of weight loss a thousand would be two pounds. 01:37:50.119 --> 01:37:53.380 I think all of these like crazy fad diets, things 01:37:53.380 --> 01:37:55.039 where you're losing 10 pounds in a week, like 01:37:55.039 --> 01:37:57.579 awesome. But did you learn any lifestyle habits? 01:37:57.659 --> 01:37:59.819 Did you learn how to like actually maintain this? 01:38:00.060 --> 01:38:03.859 No. So I take a very simple approach with let's 01:38:03.859 --> 01:38:07.720 build habits that you can sustain, not gain 10 01:38:07.720 --> 01:38:11.699 pounds, then lose 10, gain 15, lose 10, all that, 01:38:11.720 --> 01:38:14.960 right? Like what can we do to sustain these lifestyle 01:38:14.960 --> 01:38:18.399 habits? I think that's the danger of a Zempik, 01:38:18.399 --> 01:38:20.859 aside from some of the side effects. I think 01:38:20.859 --> 01:38:23.760 especially in the morbidly obese, I think it's 01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:27.199 far safer than gastric bypass. I've got two, 01:38:27.300 --> 01:38:29.640 my wife's best friend and one of my fire academy 01:38:29.640 --> 01:38:32.100 friends both died from complications from that. 01:38:32.260 --> 01:38:34.840 So I think it's horrendous. You look at the concept, 01:38:34.899 --> 01:38:37.079 it doesn't even make any sense health -wise. 01:38:37.439 --> 01:38:40.779 But if you're using that as a way to lose weight, 01:38:40.840 --> 01:38:43.520 and one of our gym members I just bumped into 01:38:43.520 --> 01:38:45.439 in the car park a couple of days ago, and she 01:38:45.439 --> 01:38:48.699 looks great. But now is obviously when you have 01:38:48.699 --> 01:38:50.800 to start adjusting how you move, how you eat. 01:38:50.840 --> 01:38:52.579 Now that you've got yourself to a body weight 01:38:52.579 --> 01:38:54.920 where it's comfortable to move again. Brilliant. 01:38:54.939 --> 01:38:57.920 But the same thing. OK, you've used this to get 01:38:57.920 --> 01:39:00.100 to a point. Now, what's the exit strategy? How 01:39:00.100 --> 01:39:02.319 are you going to wean yourself off this so that 01:39:02.319 --> 01:39:06.119 now you don't need this drug anymore? Yeah, I've 01:39:06.119 --> 01:39:08.300 actually talked about this at length with my 01:39:08.300 --> 01:39:10.539 my oldest brother has struggled with weight. 01:39:11.060 --> 01:39:13.680 And he was asking me about it. And he kind of 01:39:13.680 --> 01:39:16.079 came to the conclusion of, you know, I'd rather 01:39:16.079 --> 01:39:19.079 do the hard work. I want to do this. And yes, 01:39:19.180 --> 01:39:21.699 it's going to take me longer. And maybe I compare 01:39:21.699 --> 01:39:23.479 myself to other people and they're progressing 01:39:23.479 --> 01:39:26.739 better. But something that I'm really proud of 01:39:26.739 --> 01:39:29.880 him for is the sense of pride. He's like, I will 01:39:29.880 --> 01:39:32.140 be so much more proud of myself and the accomplishment 01:39:32.140 --> 01:39:36.079 that I made. And he's got two daughters and like 01:39:36.079 --> 01:39:39.359 showing your family. the quote -unquote right 01:39:39.359 --> 01:39:42.899 way to do things versus shortcuts um i was super 01:39:42.899 --> 01:39:44.819 proud of him for like coming to that decision 01:39:44.819 --> 01:39:47.300 and and excited for the journey that he's on 01:39:47.300 --> 01:39:50.239 yeah no and this is the healthiest way isn't 01:39:50.239 --> 01:39:52.140 it because we know if it comes off slowly it 01:39:52.140 --> 01:39:54.460 will stay off but if you see these you know biggest 01:39:54.460 --> 01:39:56.720 loser documentaries i mean they have these crazy 01:39:56.720 --> 01:39:58.800 losses and then they're all the same size again 01:39:58.800 --> 01:40:02.060 yeah We did watch that recently. That was crazy. 01:40:02.260 --> 01:40:04.739 I grew up loving that show. So it was funny, 01:40:05.260 --> 01:40:07.720 not funny, but very eye -opening to see the behind 01:40:07.720 --> 01:40:10.119 the scenes of some of that stuff. Yeah. And it 01:40:10.119 --> 01:40:12.239 wasn't anywhere near as compassionate as we thought 01:40:12.239 --> 01:40:15.100 it was behind the scenes. Not at all. Not at 01:40:15.100 --> 01:40:18.859 all. All right. Well, I want to transition to 01:40:18.859 --> 01:40:20.619 some closing questions so I can be mindful of 01:40:20.619 --> 01:40:23.060 your time. The first one I love to ask, is there 01:40:23.060 --> 01:40:25.079 a book or are there books that you'd love to 01:40:25.079 --> 01:40:27.199 recommend? It can be related to our discussion 01:40:27.199 --> 01:40:31.609 today or completely unrelated. Yeah, two books 01:40:31.609 --> 01:40:34.289 that come to mind. One kind of related to the 01:40:34.289 --> 01:40:36.729 stuff we're talking about would be Switch by 01:40:36.729 --> 01:40:41.050 Chip and Dan Heath. So that's it's like switch 01:40:41.050 --> 01:40:43.170 how to how to make change when change is hard. 01:40:43.289 --> 01:40:46.569 And so it really looks at like system changes 01:40:46.569 --> 01:40:49.630 or small little things that we can do to make 01:40:49.630 --> 01:40:51.750 changes in our life that a lot of these times, 01:40:51.810 --> 01:40:54.250 like the change doesn't have to be as hard as 01:40:54.250 --> 01:40:55.890 we think it is. And so there's a lot of cool 01:40:55.890 --> 01:40:59.550 stories in that book, highlighting that. And 01:40:59.550 --> 01:41:01.829 then the other one, my favorite, absolute favorite 01:41:01.829 --> 01:41:05.449 one is Unbroken. It's the Louis Zamperini story. 01:41:06.090 --> 01:41:09.350 And obviously I'm biased as an SC guy, but his 01:41:09.350 --> 01:41:12.329 whole story, are you familiar with Louis' story? 01:41:12.670 --> 01:41:15.090 I am. It's funny how many times that book's recommended 01:41:15.090 --> 01:41:19.449 as well. Oh, yeah, I love it. And I know, was 01:41:19.449 --> 01:41:22.489 it Angelina Jolie came out with like his, the 01:41:22.489 --> 01:41:26.220 movie about it. I just you can't do that book 01:41:26.220 --> 01:41:28.720 justice, the getting the psychological behind 01:41:28.720 --> 01:41:30.939 the scenes of like how he's feeling and all that 01:41:30.939 --> 01:41:33.859 in the book. When when I think about like the 01:41:33.859 --> 01:41:36.979 things that we struggle with in life and in our 01:41:36.979 --> 01:41:39.539 day to day, we are so comfortable in reality. 01:41:39.819 --> 01:41:42.300 Most of us are very comfortable day to day lives 01:41:42.300 --> 01:41:45.920 getting into his mindset and the thought process 01:41:45.920 --> 01:41:48.319 there and like how he continued to persevere. 01:41:49.059 --> 01:41:52.640 From just a mental health standpoint and mental 01:41:52.640 --> 01:41:56.239 resilience, that's my absolute favorite. So I 01:41:56.239 --> 01:41:59.039 think his iPhone breaks, doesn't he? That's what 01:41:59.039 --> 01:42:04.420 the real struggle was? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, man, 01:42:04.560 --> 01:42:08.399 it is crazy. His whole story, I had the opportunity 01:42:08.399 --> 01:42:11.100 before he passed away, he came and spoke. We 01:42:11.100 --> 01:42:15.439 kind of heard some stories from him at SC. And 01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:18.779 at this point, he was probably early 90s. I think 01:42:18.779 --> 01:42:20.819 it's been almost 10 years since he passed away. 01:42:22.159 --> 01:42:25.500 But he had this old like tattered USC hat on 01:42:25.500 --> 01:42:28.119 and the Trojan band came out, gave him this brand 01:42:28.119 --> 01:42:30.500 new hat. And all of a sudden you see him lean 01:42:30.500 --> 01:42:32.899 over to his son and he asks for his old hat back. 01:42:33.100 --> 01:42:37.800 He just wanted his simple stuff. Like, man, the 01:42:37.800 --> 01:42:40.000 Louis Zamperini story is absolutely amazing. 01:42:40.300 --> 01:42:42.819 If anybody hasn't read that, I highly, highly 01:42:42.819 --> 01:42:45.840 recommend that. Absolutely. Well, what about 01:42:45.840 --> 01:42:48.380 film, television, documentaries that you love? 01:42:50.020 --> 01:42:52.619 I'm not too big on that stuff, to be honest. 01:42:52.779 --> 01:42:55.220 My wife is also a physical therapist, works more 01:42:55.220 --> 01:42:57.640 in the hospital setting. And when we're watching 01:42:57.640 --> 01:43:01.800 TV, it's escapism, as bad as that sounds. We're 01:43:01.800 --> 01:43:05.020 watching trash reality TV, just anything to kind 01:43:05.020 --> 01:43:08.380 of get our minds off of work or off the stresses 01:43:08.380 --> 01:43:14.880 of it. Yeah, not too much TV. Brilliant. Well, 01:43:14.920 --> 01:43:16.579 the next question, is there a person that you 01:43:16.579 --> 01:43:18.979 recommend to come on this podcast as a guest 01:43:18.979 --> 01:43:21.619 to speak to the first responders, military and 01:43:21.619 --> 01:43:24.920 associated professions of the world? Yeah, two 01:43:24.920 --> 01:43:27.220 people came to mind. One would have been the 01:43:27.220 --> 01:43:29.800 third book I'd recommend, which is Outlive by 01:43:29.800 --> 01:43:34.800 Dr. Peter Attia. He is big in like the longevity 01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:38.619 world and what he refers to as medicine 3 .0. 01:43:38.680 --> 01:43:42.050 I think it would be amazing to hear. his thoughts 01:43:42.050 --> 01:43:44.949 and like viewpoints on this the tactical community 01:43:44.949 --> 01:43:47.850 your fire specifically just within the sleep 01:43:47.850 --> 01:43:50.590 and and all of the other cancer and cardiac disease 01:43:50.590 --> 01:43:54.569 risks that would be really cool um and then uh 01:43:54.569 --> 01:43:57.770 another pt that i would recommend one of my mentors 01:43:57.770 --> 01:44:01.210 is danielle anderson she's a lieutenant colonel 01:44:01.210 --> 01:44:04.430 in the air force and been working with nasa for 01:44:04.430 --> 01:44:07.729 i think four or five years now so she's been 01:44:07.729 --> 01:44:10.069 like the one of the head pts at nasa and just 01:44:10.810 --> 01:44:14.510 an absolute badass so smart could speak way higher 01:44:14.510 --> 01:44:17.689 of like what we could do as pts in a unique setting 01:44:17.689 --> 01:44:20.789 and trying to help out uh people so yeah danielle 01:44:20.789 --> 01:44:24.250 would be awesome fantastic thank you so much 01:44:24.250 --> 01:44:26.050 all right well then the last question for you 01:44:26.050 --> 01:44:28.390 make sure everyone knows where to find you what 01:44:28.390 --> 01:44:32.170 do you do to decompress yeah so i'm a movement 01:44:32.170 --> 01:44:35.130 junkie as i think a lot of us are so uh running 01:44:36.230 --> 01:44:39.909 exercise, anything like that. Very lucky where 01:44:39.909 --> 01:44:42.090 we're living, we can paddleboard almost every 01:44:42.090 --> 01:44:45.569 week or go hiking. And then during this time 01:44:45.569 --> 01:44:47.130 of year when it's getting darker out and colder, 01:44:47.329 --> 01:44:49.909 honestly, puzzles. I'm sitting next to a puzzle 01:44:49.909 --> 01:44:51.970 on my table here right now. That is a nice way 01:44:51.970 --> 01:44:55.050 for me to try to not be in front of the TV and 01:44:55.050 --> 01:44:56.989 just kind of tinker with something. My wife and 01:44:56.989 --> 01:44:59.689 I will turn on some music and just knock that 01:44:59.689 --> 01:45:02.600 out. Brilliant. My son just bought one for that 01:45:02.600 --> 01:45:04.899 same reason. And he's 18, so that's good. Get 01:45:04.899 --> 01:45:07.500 him away from the screen. Yeah, it's nice, right? 01:45:07.600 --> 01:45:09.920 It helps pass the time. We'll set a timer and 01:45:09.920 --> 01:45:13.159 be like, oh my gosh, an hour passed. Cool. Sometimes 01:45:13.159 --> 01:45:16.239 it's frustrating, but it's a good cognitive task. 01:45:16.600 --> 01:45:21.560 And yeah, problem solving, it's fun. Absolutely. 01:45:21.920 --> 01:45:23.939 Well, for people listening, where are the best 01:45:23.939 --> 01:45:26.659 places to find you, learn more about you online 01:45:26.659 --> 01:45:30.619 or social media? Yeah, probably the easiest two 01:45:30.619 --> 01:45:34.460 would be Instagram at tactical underscore athlete 01:45:34.460 --> 01:45:39.039 underscore performance or at my website, tacticalathleteperformance 01:45:39.039 --> 01:45:42.100 .com. So that's where I do a lot of the consulting. 01:45:42.319 --> 01:45:44.840 I do physical therapy still on the side, like 01:45:44.840 --> 01:45:47.520 outside of the stuff with the city of Sacramento, 01:45:47.560 --> 01:45:50.819 but those would be the two easiest ways. Beautiful. 01:45:50.819 --> 01:45:52.300 So just expand on that a little bit, because 01:45:52.300 --> 01:45:53.840 we didn't really hit that. So you're working 01:45:53.840 --> 01:45:56.220 with Sacramento. So what are the services that 01:45:56.220 --> 01:45:58.600 you offer for other people are looking for, you 01:45:58.600 --> 01:46:00.260 know, using you and your skills in your company? 01:46:01.340 --> 01:46:04.380 Yeah, so coaching. So like I mentioned before, 01:46:04.500 --> 01:46:07.319 like coaching for pre academy, or just people 01:46:07.319 --> 01:46:09.659 trying to get in shape for fire academy, or even 01:46:09.659 --> 01:46:12.670 if they're online already. And then physical 01:46:12.670 --> 01:46:16.090 therapy. So either in person or virtual. I do 01:46:16.090 --> 01:46:18.949 a lot more consulting now of like second opinion 01:46:18.949 --> 01:46:21.510 type stuff. Like, hey, here's what I'm going 01:46:21.510 --> 01:46:23.390 through with my provider. Do you feel like I'm 01:46:23.390 --> 01:46:26.310 getting good care? How should I advocate? Does 01:46:26.310 --> 01:46:28.189 this seem like I'm on the right path? That sort 01:46:28.189 --> 01:46:31.750 of stuff. I'm a very big believer in teaching 01:46:31.750 --> 01:46:35.770 somebody how to fish, which is great for individuals, 01:46:35.869 --> 01:46:38.069 but bad for business. So most of the time I average 01:46:38.069 --> 01:46:41.039 one or two visits per case. just because we're 01:46:41.039 --> 01:46:42.659 chatting and giving you all the tools that you 01:46:42.659 --> 01:46:45.539 need to do to rehab. So those are the two biggest 01:46:45.539 --> 01:46:47.560 things. And then a little bit of consulting with 01:46:47.560 --> 01:46:49.439 departments. People want me to come out and do 01:46:49.439 --> 01:46:52.920 lectures or any sort of injury prevention type 01:46:52.920 --> 01:46:56.359 work. But all of that caveat is outside of my 01:46:56.359 --> 01:47:00.720 job within the city. So my availability is good 01:47:00.720 --> 01:47:04.500 on the weekends and late night weekdays. But 01:47:04.500 --> 01:47:07.520 yeah, I'm very committed to Sacramento right 01:47:07.520 --> 01:47:09.380 now. Trying to hopefully make some changes here. 01:47:10.270 --> 01:47:12.590 Brilliant. It's funny that circles around to 01:47:12.590 --> 01:47:15.970 the sports agent conversation at the very beginning 01:47:15.970 --> 01:47:17.670 and the kind of people that were in that business 01:47:17.670 --> 01:47:21.329 law class. I've heard people in your field say, 01:47:21.430 --> 01:47:24.229 I could just keep people coming back, but I want 01:47:24.229 --> 01:47:26.289 them to get better, which is a terrible business 01:47:26.289 --> 01:47:28.710 model, but it's a beautiful human model. And 01:47:28.710 --> 01:47:30.569 I would argue it's a good business model because 01:47:30.569 --> 01:47:32.390 if you're the kind of person where they go and 01:47:32.390 --> 01:47:34.720 visit you and... they get better, then they're 01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:36.260 going to tell other people who will then come 01:47:36.260 --> 01:47:38.260 and visit you and they tell more and they tell 01:47:38.260 --> 01:47:41.079 more. But it's funny, on the dark side of medicine, 01:47:41.199 --> 01:47:43.140 there's a lot of professions, you know, Cairo 01:47:43.140 --> 01:47:44.859 and some of these other areas where there's less 01:47:44.859 --> 01:47:49.260 ethical practitioners that are deliberately keeping 01:47:49.260 --> 01:47:51.939 you coming back rather than giving you the tools 01:47:51.939 --> 01:47:55.890 to heal yourself. Absolutely. I use the mechanic 01:47:55.890 --> 01:47:57.949 analogy a lot, right? Like you wouldn't keep 01:47:57.949 --> 01:48:00.149 taking your car back to the mechanic with the 01:48:00.149 --> 01:48:02.489 same check engine light keeps coming on. Like 01:48:02.489 --> 01:48:03.930 eventually you'd be like, this guy doesn't know 01:48:03.930 --> 01:48:07.149 what he's talking about. So yeah, I love the 01:48:07.149 --> 01:48:10.689 concept of most of us have like my dentist, right? 01:48:10.789 --> 01:48:13.590 Like I go to, I know who I go to every six months 01:48:13.590 --> 01:48:16.380 for routine checkups or if I need anything. Having 01:48:16.380 --> 01:48:19.000 that same philosophy of like, that's my PT. I 01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:21.520 know I can trust Nick to whenever I need something. 01:48:21.579 --> 01:48:23.520 I know he's going to give me the best care that 01:48:23.520 --> 01:48:26.659 he can. That is my goal rather than this like 01:48:26.659 --> 01:48:30.439 recurring business model. And yeah, I'm not good 01:48:30.439 --> 01:48:34.819 at business at all. Me neither. All right. Well, 01:48:34.920 --> 01:48:36.460 Nick, I want to thank you so much. It's been 01:48:36.460 --> 01:48:39.220 such an. an important conversation with the kind 01:48:39.220 --> 01:48:41.300 of lens that you have between the collegiate 01:48:41.300 --> 01:48:43.659 sports, then the military space, especially in 01:48:43.659 --> 01:48:45.319 some of the high performers that you work with, 01:48:45.380 --> 01:48:48.319 and then comparing that to the fire service. 01:48:48.340 --> 01:48:50.180 And hopefully people have got a lot out of this 01:48:50.180 --> 01:48:52.760 conversation. So I want to thank you so much 01:48:52.760 --> 01:48:54.800 for being so generous with your time and coming 01:48:54.800 --> 01:48:57.239 on the behind the shield podcast today. Yeah. 01:48:57.260 --> 01:48:58.960 Thank you, James. I appreciate your time and 01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:01.000 everything that you've been doing. It's a, it's 01:49:01.000 --> 01:49:02.439 awesome to keep getting education.