This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the
first staffing software to be truly firefighter
proof. Now you may be wondering why I have software
as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical
and mental health of the first responders, and
I will tell you exactly why. For the first time,
this is a staffing platform that also is able
to integrate wellness information through core
load tracking, exposures, and wearables integration.
Now, of course, StationWise focuses on staffing
and allows you to manage staffing, choose vacation
picks, put in rules for leave and trades, and
even deploying strike teams. But through the
latest programming in AI automation, they have
streamlined this process to free up battalion
chiefs so they can focus on what they're supposed
to be doing on the operational side and the fire
ground. Now, StationWise is also able to monitor
not only how many calls we've responded to in
a shift, but the duration of the call, therefore
the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring
the sleep deprivation that degrades our health
and performance. It's accessible not only through
the computer, but also on Apple and Android devices,
meaning that you can access it not only within
the station itself, but outside as well. Now,
one of the most powerful features of StationWise,
in my opinion, is the ability to run reports.
Therefore, for example, be able to see just how
much money is being used on overtime that could
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if you want to hear the full story from the founder,
who he himself is a son of a firefighter, listen
to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you
want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise
.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show elite off -road racer and firefighter Kellen
Walsh. Now in this conversation we discuss a
host of topics from his journey into the world
of motorcycle racing, overcoming a near -death
injury, TBIs, Area 51, the Dakar Rally, sleep
and performance, ketamine, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Kellen
Walsh. Enjoy. Well, Kellen, I want to start by
saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our
mutual friend, Dr. Jonathan Edwards, for making
this connection. And secondly, he's amazing.
Actually, I just saw him recently. It was fantastic.
Oh, okay. And then secondly, I want to welcome
you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I've
watched some of your shows and I enjoy what you're
doing. It's pretty interesting. And I travel
about two hours to work every day, so it's a
good listen for me. Yeah, there's one episode
each way then. All right, so very first question,
where on planet Earth are we finding you today?
I'm at home, finally. Not very often I'm at home,
but I'm in Alamo, Nevada, a little tiny town
in the middle of nowhere, about two hours north
of Vegas, straight north of Vegas, literally
in the middle of nowhere. It's an amazing place.
Beautiful. Well, very first thing, what took
you there specifically? My family's been here
since 1864 in this area. They've been running
cattle here forever. My wife's family's from
here. I think her family's been here since the
early 1900s. They have a little cattle ranch
here as well, and her family ran cattle here.
It's in the desert. We're in Nevada, but it's
a little, we have a little stream that runs through
the whole valley, so it's kind of a little fertile
valley. There's always been animals and plants
here. It's called Paraniget Valley. It's like
an Indian name for a valley of waters. But it's
a little piece of heaven for us. There's fields
out here you can't see. We're on 45 acres, but
there's fields. There's green. So for the desert,
it's a pretty nice little place. And it's a good
place to raise a family and kids. Do you know
what got your ancestors to go to there specifically
when they had the whole place to choose from?
You know what? I'm not really sure. A lot of
my dad's family, which is the Walsh family, um
were cattle ranchers um i know some of my other
family and some of my wife's family came here
and kind of settled here as back in the day when
the mormons had come out west and then they sent
some of the families out to kind of um settle
some towns and sell some areas and her family
came out here and settled this area as like a
mormon colony and las vegas as i don't know if
you know or not was kind of settled by uh some
mormons as well as they came out and settled
that area so very interesting Well, you mentioned
about being born and raised there. Tell me what
your parents did and how many siblings you have.
So I have a younger brother and a younger sister.
I'm the oldest. There's not a lot to do out here
for work. Most people drive to Vegas or we're
pretty close to Area 51. We call it the Nevada
test site. So there's quite a few people that
work out there. My brother is actually a fireman
out at the Nevada test and training range. So
out of the test site. My dad was a fireman in
Las Vegas. He was a captain for 28 years. His
brother was a captain also on the Clark County
Fire Department in Las Vegas. And then my grandpa,
who was a cattle rancher, he got married to his,
my grandma was a lamb. They're pretty famous
there in Vegas. And he says, you're going to
stop cattle ranching and come down and get a
real job and be a fireman. So my grandpa started
on the Clark County Fire Department in 1955,
and he was on the fire department there for 37
years. Amazing. I kind of grew up at the breakfast
and dinner tables. Family's really important
to us and listening to all the stories. They
have another brother who's a cop in Las Vegas.
So between him and then my grandpa and my dad
and his brother who are firemen, we always got
to hear stories and they're running calls together.
I remember as a little kid, it was always, you
know, they would come home and they'd just tell
stories and we'd sit at the breakfast table and
just listen to them. what happened that shift
and that what happened the shift before and and
it was pretty interesting when you look back
now with this kind of veteran lens that you have
what were the pros of growing up in a firefighter
family and then if any what were the cons of
being a child of a firefighter um i think the
pros was my dad was around quite a bit um He
was my high school football coach. He was able
to do that, you know, in between shifts. And
he, I ended up racing. He wasn't a racer, but
I just started liking motorcycles and started
riding out to the desert in my backyard. And
he was around and supported me a lot through
that. Now the shifts were crazy, you know, work
on Christmas and work on New Year's. New Year's
is huge in Vegas, so we never saw him on New
Year's or anything like that. But he was around
quite a bit to help support all of us kids. uh
in a lot that we did so that was definitely a
plus and growing up um just hearing those stories
and raising us kids you know the way that they
did my grandpa still had cattle and worked on
the cattle ranch as well as being a fireman up
here and so it was a good life i think some of
the maybe some of the negatives was my dad was
gone a lot i don't remember we always did christmas
it wasn't always you know we opened presents
because to get to work in vegas from where we're
at it's almost two hours So if he was working
Christmas Day, we woke up at four in the morning
to open our presents. Or if he was working New
Year's and working Christmas Day, we were always
kind of juggling our schedules and stuff like
that. You know, we missed a lot of the holidays,
but that's kind of the fireman life. So we got
used to it. You mentioned about your, did you
say your brother works in Area 51? Yeah, he works
for the NTTR, the Nevada Training and Test Range
Fire Department out there. Okay, well, before
I forget to ask this question, what are some
of the funniest myths and what are some of the
unknown realities of actually living and or working
in that area? I don't know. He doesn't tell me
anything. He can't say anything. We grew up out
there. I mean, we're right next to that place.
But I know that they're busy out there. They
got a lot of stuff going on. They don't run a
lot of medical calls per se. Their call volume
is not huge. but i know that uh every day they're
quite busy whether it's um standby for for this
training or that training or if it's standby
they have planes in the air or they're doing
flights stuff like that they're sitting out on
the runway and stuff like that so i know they're
quite busy out there doing stuff what about in
the town itself have there been any conversations
of sightings or anything or is it people from
away from that area that actually obsessed with
it no it's i mean Definitely stuff going on out
there. I think it's more like a lot of development
of aircraft and stuff like that. I remember my
dad telling stories that they saw the stealth
bombers and B -1 bombers and stuff before they
were even out. If you see a stealth jet and you
don't know what it is, it looks pretty much like
a UFO, I guess you could say. And then being
a cattle rancher, there's stories of my grandpa
and even my father -in -law tell stories of other
cattle ranchers that would come up on their cows
and they're like, torn apart with like a laser
and like almost inspected with like a laser and
kind of uh picked apart you always hear stories
like that but i've never seen anything like that
but uh um it's it's we get a lot of people to
go out there and stuff like that but they're
just doing stuff out there as far as technically
trying to you know all the aerodynamics and stuff
like that for flight and stuff like that and
i've been out there with my off -road background
a little bit i've had an opportunity to do some
um military training trying to teach guys how
to ride bikes side by sides and their off -road
trucks and stuff like that so i've kind of been
out there a little bit as well and stuff like
that so no anal probes as of yet not yet well
you mentioned again about starting this whole
journey riding a bike out in your backyard in
the desert so kind of walk me through that from
the childhood point of view you know what what
were other sports that you were playing and then
what was the beginning of this obsession with
the motor side So yeah, we live in this little
tiny town. Sports are huge here. A lot of good
kids. We play eight -man football, but the whole
town comes. It's one of those stories where the
whole town comes out, watches the basketball
game, watches the football game. It's what the
town talks about all week. And I think in the
last eight years, our football team's lost like
three games. I think in eight years, they've
won. I can't remember. They've lost the championship
maybe once or twice. They just won the championship
again. My wife played all sports. My wife right
now is the... volleyball high school coach, and
then my daughters were playing volleyball. They
just won the state championship about a month
ago. So sports is huge for us here in the small
little town. Everyone gets out. It really is.
It's almost like they kind of go back in time,
but all the kids go down to the dunk ball courts
and play. They play games. They call them night
games. It's super safe. I mean, my kid, we're
about four miles from town, and he'll ride his
scooter down to the middle of town, and they'll
play games and, okay, be home at 1130. or whatever,
11 o 'clock, and we don't see them, and we're
pretty sure they're safe down there playing.
And so growing up in a little town like that's
pretty cool. So sports was huge. My dad, like
I said, my dad helped coach our high school football
team. So I played football and basketball. And
then I don't know why, but for some reason I
just started, I have a love for motorcycles and
started riding motorcycles. My dad knows nothing
about them. In fact, I asked him to change oil
one time before a race. because I think I was
playing basketball. And he changed the oil, but
he forgot to put it back in. And I went about
13 miles in the race and blew that bike up. But
he had to buy me a new one. That was the first
new bike I got, and he had to buy it. And my
parents made me buy everything. But I just loved
motorcycles and just started from there. Literally,
my backyard is the perfect place, hundreds and
hundreds of miles of nothing but desert. And
so I just started riding, started racing locally.
went in kind of local championships and kind
of moved up to the national stage. And it just
kind of took off from there. What was it about
your journey that created you, you know, being
a champion in these events? You know, if you
didn't have the mentorship, for example, from
a parent? I think growing up in this town, we're
hard workers. I mean, everyone here, you know,
all the kids in the high school, they play sports,
but they play like three or four different sports.
Nowadays, all the kids usually just, kind of
zoning on one sport and play one sport. The kids
here are hard workers. They're in the summer,
they're baling hay and working cows, and they're
out and about. I don't think anyone's sitting
at home and playing Nintendo or Xbox or anything
like that. Everyone gets out and about and does
stuff here. It's a very active town. So I think
growing up that way was a good way. And then
also my dad being a fireman, and he's mentally
tough. I mean, my dad is probably... one of the
hardest workers i know he'll go out there and
dig a ditch still and even on the fire department
they said he was one of the hardest workers you
know i mean as a captain he'd be out there you
know overhauling and working hard and dragging
hoes and i think just having him growing up and
with my family and grandpa and running cattle
and and doing all that stuff just you work hard
and it kind of prepares you mentally and for
racing on the national stage it helped a lot
What about career aspirations? What were you
dreaming of becoming when you were in the high
school age? I always kind of wanted to play football,
and then I took after my mom, and I'm real small
and skinny. And then I always wanted to race,
but I wasn't really quite sure it was there.
And then I think it was, I turned 16, and I actually
got a factory support ride from a company brand,
a motorcycle brand called Husqvarna, and they
were trying to make a big push back in the U
.S. And I think that year we won the championship,
won a couple of races, and I think... I remember
being 16, I made almost $20 ,000 that year. And
I was like, for me, that was huge. I was used
to having to pay for my gas, pay for tires, pay
for gear, pay for everything. And I actually
made a little bit of money that year. I was like,
maybe we could do this. Maybe we could do this
for a living. And from that point on, I tried
and I pushed hard and tried to make it work for
a long time. And I thought it was maybe possible.
I saw some heroes of mine that were racing and
making it work, like Danny Hamill and Ty Davis
and a few off -road people. And they were making
a living at it. And I was like, oh, it might
be possible to do this. And so I worked really
hard at that. I kind of always had the fire.
I mean, I knew it wasn't going to last forever.
It wasn't going to be a long -time deal. And
so I kind of always had the fire department on
the back burner, kind of plan B, I guess you
could say. So walk me through that pre -fire
department then. What level did you get to? Again,
what served you well in competition? And then
what, if any, were some of the injuries or things
that made you shift away from it? Yeah. From
16 years old, I started making a little bit of
money. And then obviously there's a lot of injuries.
I think some of my first big injuries were concussions.
Hit my head a couple times, got knocked out really
good. And then I was playing high school football,
and I remember getting a couple concussions.
And I knew I'd have a concussion if I kind of
hit my head, and I got nauseated. And if I got
nauseated and started throwing up, I'm like,
yep, that was a good one. Back then, we didn't
know a lot about concussions, you know what I
mean? I mean, looking back at it now, I never
would have let me play some of those football
games or go back out on the race course knowing
I had just hit my head the weekend before, you
know? But it was different back then. But ultimately,
I kind of did the race thing. Luckily, when I
graduated high school, I'd had a couple of bad
injuries, but I was having probably the most
success I had was riding for a company, Kawasaki
Motorcycles. And it was a tough decision for
us being from the Mormon church, the church of
Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. We usually
go on a mission when we're 19. And I had the
opportunity to try to decide if I was going to
go on a mission or stay home and marry my high
school sweetheart or leave for two years and
give up racing. And I ended up leaving for two
years, which is kind of good looking back on
it now, kind of give my brain a rest, even though
I was having quite a bit of race success then.
But I went on mission for two years and then
came back and picked up the racing right where
I left off. You mentioned about the head injuries
and we were talking, you just literally had an
incident again when you were racing yesterday.
With this high incidence of TBIs in your profession,
probably coupled with some other psychological
stuff, because most of us that are chasing adrenaline
usually are compensating for something else.
What is the mental health conversation in your
world when it comes to the sports side? Are you
seeing a lot of addiction, suicide elements that
we see in the fire service as well? Yes, especially
in the off -road, what you call like the... the
extreme sports athletes. Um, and they get that.
I see it quite a bit, not only from the, the
injury side, which is frustrating, but the, the
concussion side. And then the, they're used to
that adrenaline rush and they're used to that,
you know, all the people being around on the
social media and everything like that and that
rush. And then when that kind of fades away or
when they get the concussion like that, it kind
of, I mean, we know it, it has a direct effect
on, on, um, unfortunately there's been quite
a few people that have, taken their lives and
chosen the suicide route and it's tough there's
a lot of people in our sport who get injured
get addicted to the pain pills and it kind of
goes down a very long road after it gets addicted
to the pain pills and it's tough to come back
and then the mental side there is it really messes
them up we see it quite a bit just like on the
fire department very similar type of deal and
I think that that underlines it you know we see
it in the seals we see it in music we see it
in Hollywood you know this there's There's a
lot of us that find ourselves in certain areas
that are driven by early life. And in our field,
wearing a uniform, a lot of times it's wanting
to protect, wanting to be there on someone's
worst day, wanting to fill the void with excitement.
And then you have that tribal element, you have
the identity. Well, these are all universal human.
concepts so you can take that blueprint and apply
it to other professions or other sports and it's
the same exact conversation and if you watch
the the documentary the weight of gold you see
it in the olympians you know these these athletes
have been training since they were children as
you said one single sport they finally podium
and then they age out and they're like well now
what who am i you know who i you know what is
my identity i've always been a swimmer or whatever
it is And now they're having to re -find who
the person was pre -fire service, pre -Olympic
gymnastics, whatever the thing is. Yeah, exactly.
Yesterday, we had a race last weekend where I
just hit my head yesterday. We crashed last night.
But it's a smaller race. It's not like the Baja
1000. It's more like a loop race. So it's like
a 15 -mile loop. And the owner of our team called
Concrete Motorsports here has a company out of
Texas called Ameritex. But he did an event for
vets. They have this organization there. Then
he gave the vets a ride in one lap in the trophy
truck, which is mind -blowing. You probably don't
know much about trophy trucks, but it's a $1
.5 million truck. There's nothing like it in
the world. It handles bumps and jumps at 120,
130 miles an hour. It's mind -blowing. But we
got to bring some of the vets out, and we gave
four vets a ride each morning. And it's the same
scenario with the military. the background that
they've had, the trauma injury that they've had,
the things that they've seen, kind of the same
thing that these extreme sport athletes are seeing.
And even on the fire department, the same thing.
It's the same story, like you just said. And
those guys were awesome. I got to talk to them.
And it was kind of after I got my concussion
last night, we're kind of talking about some
of the same stuff. But for those guys to come
out and get that adrenaline rush in that trophy
truck. The guy told me, he said, I haven't had
my heart rate that high since I was last deployed.
He's like, that was amazing. Felt that rush again.
It was just something cool that the owner of
our team did this last weekend, actually yesterday
and Saturday. So that was pretty cool. But going
back to, honestly, some of the extreme sports
guys, just like you said, they're getting done.
They're like, okay, well, now what do I do? I've
done nothing but ride motorcycles my entire life.
I don't have any other skill sets. But I've got
quite a few people. The fire department's a good
answer for that. I mean, the fire department,
I mean, let's be honest, it does give you that
adrenaline rush, whether it's a car accident
or you're trying to save someone's life or going
into a big fire or something like that. It kind
of fills that void, and it's a good career for
a lot of those guys who are trying to transition.
And it's, you know, you've got that good family
atmosphere at the dinner table and stuff like
that. So it's a good stepping stone, I guess
you could say, for a lot of athletes like that.
Absolutely. Well, what made you actually transition
to full -time firefighting? I had a bunch of
injuries, string of injuries besides concussions.
I remember I think 2004 is my first big one that
really kind of caught me off guard and like made
me start thinking about it. But I ended up breaking
my femur and shattering my pelvis down in Mexico.
We weren't even racing. We were pre -running.
So you have a chance to go and look at the course
and kind of make lines and figure out where you
want to go on race day. I ended up crashing in
the middle of nowhere in Mexico and laid there
for eight hours with a broken femur and a shattered
pelvis. I didn't know my pelvis was that bad
at the time, but I had a line off the course.
For those who are kind of familiar with Baja,
you can kind of choose different lines. I was
kind of off. It was going to be a little bit
faster spot. I hit a rock, went over the handlebars,
and the bike ended up hitting me in the back.
I think that's what broke my femur and my pelvis.
But, yeah, I literally couldn't crawl from where
I was at. i knew my femurs broke i didn't know
how bad my pelvis was but i could not physically
get you know 50 yards over to where the actual
course was and so i ended up laying there for
three or four hours before someone found me and
then at that point there was no way i was getting
on a motorcycle or even like a race truck i could
not physically sit in a seat uh to get out of
there and so long story short after eight hours
we got a pickup truck to me um strapped me in
the back of the pickup truck and we'd go a little
bit and i could just feel my hell of a grinding
and I'd go a few throw up a little bit go a few
more miles throw up a little bit because we're
in a very remote hard to get to sand wash in
the middle of nowhere in Mexico and they couldn't
fly me out because it was storming so none of
the helicopters would fly them so anyway long
story short we got to a little town called San
Felipe after San Felipe there was a little bit
of a clinic there with the ambulance they took
me up to the border to Calexico then from Calexico
They flew me to Las Vegas where Dr. Jonathan
helped me get surgery and all the proper care
I needed. But that was the first one that kind
of like took me to recover a while. And then
from then on, when you're racing at 100 miles
an hour on a bike, you're kind of always like,
oh, I wonder if I want to crash or if I hit that
rock again. So when I was young, you never think
about that. You're just wide open all the time
going, you know, balls on the wall. So that one
got me thinking. And then after that, I had a
long string of. I had a contract with KTM at
that time, and I was supposed to do the Dakar
Rally. And I did the Dakar Rally, which that
year we started in Barcelona, Spain, went down
through Spain, went across the Strait of Gibraltar,
raced through Mauritania, Mali, Senegal, through
the Sahara Desert, and we finished at Dakar,
Africa. And I missed the last two years of that
contract because of injuries. Crashed another
time in Mexico, got knocked out, broke my shoulder.
And then the other time I crashed really hard
in... Washington State. Shattered both my ankles.
Had two casts on my ankles. Couldn't walk for
a while. I remember my wife leaving to work.
She's like, I've got your lunch. It's at the
bottom of the fridge. Crawl over to the bottom
of the fridge and get your lunch and I'll be
back at dinner time. And then there's a few other
injuries. We were testing in Mexico with KTM
and I ended up doing like a tank slap or what
we call. Hit the tank and I thought I just kind
of hit my testicles pretty good. This is one
of those. I get home and long story short i waited
a couple days and then i couldn't walk and it
was the size of an apple sorry for the for the
no no you're fine you're amongst friends i ended
up going to the hospital there and the guy's
like oh yeah you got an infection here's some
antibiotics and the next day it was about the
size of an orange and i was like this is the
most pain i've ever been through I'm either just
going to end it all or something's got to happen.
I ended up going to a urologist and then he's
like, oh yeah, I think you had testicular torsion.
That was the first thing they should have checked
for. We've got to cut that thing out right now.
So that was actually before I even had any of
my kids, but I lost one of those. So just a combination.
It's hard. You get a little bit of salary, but
you're getting paid as you go to races and stuff
like that. So if you're not going to races or
you're at the hospital or you're trying to get
back into it, it makes it really tough to make
a living. and to support a family. And so I did
that for a few years. You kind of get it on the
couch where you're injured. Then you finally
get back up to race pace. You get back into shape,
which takes almost a year. And then you get hurt
again. And then you kind of start at the bottom
and you do that again. And it's a mental game.
It's frustrating and it's hard to make a living.
And finally, I was like, they say in off -road
racing with age comes the cage. And so I tried
to make that transition into racing trucks and
something with a roll cage and a five -point
harness. If you could be the voice in everyone's
ear, where would that middle ground be between
chasing excellence in extreme sports and life
-altering injuries and death that we see in everything
from motocross to skydiving, et cetera? So tough.
I'm going to tell you right now, I've had three
personal friends that are really close to me
that have died doing what I do. There was a KTM
with me who did the Dakar rally with me. Him
and I were two of the youngest kids to do the
Dakar rally. And he ended up getting paralyzed
a couple years after that. So he's been paralyzed
for probably 15 years. Still a great friend,
great guy, but life -altering change. And unfortunately,
in the sport of off -road motorcycles, it seems
like the dangers are there to get paralyzed quite
a bit more. My teammate at... red bull and ford
right now his 16 year old son just got paralyzed
and uh it's tough where do you draw the line
you know i still ride a little bit for fun and
my boy rides a little bit um but there's that
risk and it's like really should i i'm 42 years
old should i be going to the motocross track
and and doing this you know it's kind of always
in the back of your mind but um it's it's tough
like you like you said and in the the desert
racing is My personal friend died in Mexico at
the Baja 1000. And, you know, just a freak thing.
But you just never, you know, where do you draw
the line? You know, I have other firemen. There's
quite a few firemen that ride motocross. And
he's like, oh, dude, I just crashed and I freaking
tweaked my neck. I could have just, you know,
I mean, you always think about that. It's that
give and take. It's still a great adrenaline
rush. It's a great exercise. Nothing else clears
my mind. like going on a motorcycle ride. So
mentally, it's a great, great to clear my mind.
I'll be angry or stressed out about stuff. My
wife will be like, you need to go for a ride.
I'm like, you know what? You're right, I do.
So it's tough to draw that line. I had a few
skydivers on the show, base jumpers. they were
saying that one thing that was contributing to
the deaths in their profession was people seeing
some of these extreme stunts on social media
without the understanding of how many thousands
of jumps they had taken to get there and then
shortcutting it and then ending up, you know,
one of these horrendous, you know, flight suit
tragedies or whatever the thing is. Is there
that same element in your profession where maybe
there isn't the diligence in the progression
of the sport and the shortcuts are causing more
unneeded deaths? Unfortunately, yeah. I mean,
my little boy will sit and watch YouTube videos
all day long. And he's into mountain biking right
now. And he watches these mountain bikers. I'm
like, bud, these guys make it look so easy. But
you're not going to go do a double backflip over
a jump. You know what I mean? It's tough. And
they make it look so easy. But those guys are
insane athletes. They work hard at it for the
last 10 years. You know what I mean? What they're
doing is it's actually mind -blowing what they
can do. And then you got these kids who watch
it. No, we can go do a backflip. It's not that
easy. They just make it look easy. So, yeah,
for sure, it is changing our sport. all forms
of racing right now are insane like the level
because people are doing it there's families
that have kids since they're like three years
old they're training for motocross they go to
private school they've never been to a public
school and all they do all week long is train
and then they race every single week into their
lives it's it's actually almost out of control
um i almost didn't want my boy to race like that
because for one i can't afford it for two it's
it's it's a tough life you know i mean like we
talked about it's They do that their entire lives,
and they get one podium, and then they're like,
now what? So my boy, he's in middle school. He
plays basketball. He plays football. He plays
baseball. He rides motorcycles. He just broke
his arm in football this year. But I think it's
good to be well -rounded and to see what he really
enjoys and try all the different stuff. I think
there's a danger as well, more so now than ever
of living vicariously through your child. You
know, there's a lot of, I've said this, a lot
of Uncle Rico's out there, you know, allowing
your kid to just explore all the things that
are fun. And I mean, I used to ride bikes on
my farm. I love, I love riding bikes, but never,
never to any amount of actual skill. But, you
know, if you're, if you're immersing them and
then they're like, dad, this is all I want to
do, then yeah, you obviously have to, you know,
help them down that path. But I think there are
a lot. lot of parents that are grooming their
children from such a young age. You see these,
you know, MMA fighters that are like seven, eight
years old and you're just cringing like, you
know, it's only a matter of time before they're
going to have a really bad injury. And for what
were they dreaming of doing this? Or is it because
mom and dad thought that's what, you know, I
want a world champion one day. And is that the
best parenting philosophy or are we kind of getting
too far away from the well -being of our child
versus fame and performance? Yeah, no, exactly.
We see that in motocross specifically. They call
it a moto dad and a pit mom, but the dad's out
there screaming at their kid at the top of their
lungs at every lap as they come around. And yeah,
it's almost getting out of control. Like I said,
any form of racing, the level is just because
people are pushing the level, the envelope so
much. Even in our trophy truck racing and in
the Dakar rally in the cars, it's like everyone's
pushing. Like we just... We were supposed to
do the show before Morocco and I left for Morocco.
But the pace that we were running in Morocco
this last race was insane. And it's almost uncomfortable
to race at that speed. But that's what you have
to do if you want to be towards the top. And
our pace was off in the beginning. And we tried
to find another level. And so it's just everyone's
trying to push the envelope. You know what I
mean? And it's a slippery slope. Going back to
Mexico, you're lying there with a broken femur.
a shattered pelvis. We know obviously about the
blood loss when it comes to those kinds of injuries.
What was your self -talk getting yourself through
that when you're lying there, not knowing that
you're going to be discovered for, you know,
several hours. My cousin was with me and he finally
found me after sitting there for two hours because
we got to a meeting point and I wasn't there.
So we kind of backtracked and he ended up finding
me. His great plan was he just wanted to lay
next to me in Mexico and cover us both up with
sand and we were going to die in Mexico. That
was my first big injury. I had a little bit of
medical training at that point because of my
dad being a fireman and everything. I didn't
know they extended to what my pelvis was. My
pelvis was really bad. The worst thing is in
the back of your sacrum where all your nerves
run through, I had a lot of nerve damage. I broke
the, shattered the pelvis, and it had shifted
about four or five millimeters, and it had really
messed up all the nerves that run through your
sacrum and everything like that. But I didn't
really know what to do. I don't know how I got
through that one, to be honest with you, because
it was eight hours there, three hours to get
back to the town of San Felipe in the back of
a pickup truck, and I could just feel the bones
grinding, and I just remember throwing up and
throwing up. And then I remember getting in that
Mexican ambulance in San Felipe, and they had
taken me to the border. And that guy was driving
so horrible. And I thought I was going to die
in the ambulance. I was like, get me out of here.
I'd rather just drive in the back of a truck.
But then finally, when I got to Calexico, I think
they drug me up pretty good when I got in the
plane. But I think I've relied on that situation
a lot in my life. And it's gotten me through
a lot of different scenarios and situations.
I think that situation's even helped me on the
fire department quite a bit. i guess what they
say what doesn't hurt you makes you stronger
so yeah in theory what doesn't kill you it doesn't
make you stronger that didn't kill me so i definitely
got stronger from that one so i want to hit kind
of the the mental and the physical let's start
with physical first you've had obviously that
was your sounds like your most major injury but
you've had other ones as well what are some of
the elements of rehab uh physical therapy that
you found have worked to allow you to get back
to a performing at a high level at your sport
and then ultimately even the fire service i think
the biggest thing and i tell people a lot of
people this is patience i mean things you just
got to be patient i remember getting hurt being
impatient being like okay talking to dr edwards
all right doc because he was our that's how i
met jonathan was he was our red bull ktm doctor
and he went to dakar with us and did a lot of
the races I'd be sitting on the couch being bored,
like, okay, John, what can I do? Can I do this
even faster? Can I do this to get back faster?
Can I start doing this? You just got to be patient.
Shoot, even four or five years ago, I crashed.
We were at a race with my boy, just having fun,
and I shattered all my ribs, punctured my lung,
had a hemothorax, nemothorax, shattered my scapula,
which my other scapula was already plated, so
I didn't let him plate the scapula this time.
But at that point, you just don't heal like you
used to, and you got to be patient. You know
what I mean? Gosh dang, I just tell everyone,
I see all the kids getting hurt. It's like, you
just got to be patient. Take your time. There's
absolutely no reason to hurry over an injury.
You know what I mean? Heal it right. Do the proper
rehab and stuff like that. And honestly, those
injuries, a lot of them are mental. Yeah, it's
the physical aspect, but mentally, it wears on
you. I can't remember who it was now, one of
the PTs or injury specialists I had on the show,
they were talking about when your injury feels
like it's healed, it's usually at about 80%.
And I thought that was really important to remember
because there's this kind of fallacy in the fire
service that it's a badge of honor to get back
from an injury as quickly as possible. Like everyone's
just waiting for you to come back to the engine.
And then when you do, they're all going to applaud
and give you medals. No one gives a shit. You
know, you come back when you're supposed to come
back. But understanding that, yeah, you know,
what you might be expected to do, obviously your
city, you might get there for a shift. You have
this mass shooting and now you're dragging people
around. If you're trying to rush rehabilitation,
your chances of re -injury are going to be a
lot higher than if, just like you said, you're
patient, you make sure that not only the pain
is gone, but you've actually forged the strength
and the mobility that you need to be as close
to 100 % as possible. That is a time to then
get back on the rig. Yeah. I think I look back
at every single one of my injuries and say I
came back too soon. And it's tough. It's a mental
struggle when you're sitting on the couch or
when you're just doing physical therapy every
day and then trying to come back. Your mind starts,
you know, just the wheels start spinning, but
you just got to be patient. It's a tough situation.
Like you said, that's a good perspective of,
you know, when you think you're ready, you're
about 80 % ready, honestly. And that's a good
way to put it and just be patient. Easier said
than done, of course. Absolutely. Well, from
the mental point of view as well, there's that.
I think it's a dangerous place mentally for a
lot of us because you are taken from all the
things that you love, your tribe, your identity,
your purpose. I had the same thing with minor
meniscus tears, nothing compared to the stuff
you just told us about. And then I fucked up
my back pretty good lifting a patient about 10
years ago. So that mental element is tough. especially
when you are going back into a sport that was
the cause of the injuries how do you get past
the mental hesitation the fear that you you know
is is a self -preservation mechanism within the
human body to not have that hesitation the next
time that you're racing the next time that you're
on a bike And that's tough. Like I said, that,
I can go back to that femur injury in Mexico.
And from then on, anytime I was going 100 miles
an hour plus, it was kind of always in the back
of my head. And you hit a rock and you almost
crashed. And you're like, oh, my gosh, I almost
crashed. I could have just broke my other femur
or something. It's always in your head. I think
the same thing. It's when you're lifting a patient
or anything at work and you've hurt your back
before that, and you go like, oh, this is how
I hurt my back the last time, you know, doing
this exact same thing, lifting this patient.
For me, the biggest thing was physical therapy
and trying to get stronger. I think mentally,
I think we can all agree, physical therapy and
working out is such a great, man, it just gets
your mind in the right place. You know, if you're
down or whatever for that day and you go work
out and do something strenuous and physical,
it just releases those chemicals in your mind
that get you kind of back in place for me. So
for me, working out, even now, is just a huge,
Help for me is just going to the gym. Cool thing
with Red Bull, Red Bull is one of my personal
sponsors and they're a great company. They really
do truly care about their people and they spend
a lot of money and investment into their athletes
to get them mentally strong and physically strong.
And so the last time I got a concussion really
good was probably September. And Red Bull has
a, it's called the APC, it's Athlete Performance
Center. There's a few of them throughout the
world. One's in Santa Monica, California. They
would go to the APC and they'll run a bunch of
blood tests. They do a bunch of blood work. They
have a mental coach. They have a physical coach.
They run a bunch of streamlined tests. UCLA is
right next to them. So I ended up, because of
all my concussions and my brain injuries, I ended
up getting with some doctors at UCLA and going
through your baseline. And UCLA is one of the
top leading hospitals and research into TBIs
and concussions and leading sports. when you
can come back and what not to do and what to
do. And that's kind of evolving. The whole TBI
thing, brain concussion thing is fairly new and
it's changing almost yearly. But to be able to
go to the APC and meet with the doctors at UCLA
who are up on the latest and the best recovery
and things to do for your brain, I'm pretty lucky
to be able to do that. And that helped out quite
a bit. Have that at my exposures is pretty dang
nice. Absolutely. You talked about transitioning
to the fire department. We've talked about all
the injuries you had prior. Was that something
that you had to declare at the front door as
far as the previous injuries? I don't think I
did. I think when I entered the academy, I was
in pretty good shape as far as like, yeah, I
still have a rod in my femur. I have a bunch
of metal in my scapula, my shoulders. and my
my ribs are all plated on one side because i
shattered my ribs and couldn't breathe but um
i think when i went into the academy i was in
pretty dang good shape like i said working out's
a good nothing crazy but just working out for
me is a good mental you know rehab for me and
uh i think physically i was pretty good when
i went to the academy um and i knew what it was
going to kind of take you know with my family
and the fire service and what i needed to do
so i don't think it was really the biggest thing
for me is my ankles were so bad like we jog every
day in the academy and we'd stand all day long
in the academy and gosh dang my all right i did
have to get my ankles injected throughout the
academy quite a bit just to help me get through
that part but and i entered the academy i waited
till i was a little bit older um i did the racing
thing for a while so i didn't go into the academy
i got hired at Clark County when I was 28 years
old. I think I turned 29 after my probationary
year. And the academy, I think Clark County is
known as a pretty tough academy as far as physically
demanding. We went into the academy, started
July 11th, which you know how hot it gets in
Vegas, especially in turnouts. And we run every
day in turnouts, train every day in turnouts.
And you're in July. I think we had, I can't remember
what it was, almost 60 days of heat was over
100 degrees during our academy. And honestly,
all that racing stuff and all those injuries,
I think helped prepare me for the Academy. And
even now, I can go twofold. The Academy and the
things that we learned there and staying calm
in stressful situations, stuff like that, it
helps me today in the racing. It kind of goes
back and forth. It's kind of weird to say it,
but both career paths kind of help each other
out and strengthen each other, and I get whole
strengths from each one. It's actually pretty
cool. With the heat and the academy, I can relate
completely because my first, I did Fire Academy
Orlando, a little bit less temperate. I think
it spanned even the winter, so not too bad. But
then I got hired in Hialeah, which is Miami,
over the summer. Then went to Anaheim, California,
did an academy over the summer. And then I think
Orange County again was Orlando area over the
summer. But those two, Anaheim and Hialeah in
full turnout years. You know, with whatever it
is, a million percent humidity. I mean, it's
just awful. So I can totally relate to that.
I can't believe you did more than one academy.
I get anxiety if I want to talk about doing another
academy. So you did a couple of them, but that
was tough. Our academy was tough, but it was
good. You know what I mean? We're just going
back. I meant to say this when you were talking
about the rehab. This is an important thing as
well. And I guess it's layered now because you
said how ready you were at the front door for
Clark County. When you get hurt in a lot of places
in fire departments, unless you have a kind of
sports medicine background facility that you
send your firefighters to, a lot of them you'll
go to a regular workman's comp facility like
here. I was basically the only person that was
under about 70 in the rehab place that I was
at. A lot of elderly people with post -hip surgeries
and that kind of thing. And so they're just not
used to it. rehabbing you to that high level.
And going to your point, when I did get hurt
from my back, my goal was, you know, there was
an imbalance. That's what made me get hurt in
the first place. So addressing that, but then
addressing the strength and by doing, you know,
deadlifts and some of these other movements beyond
where I was before. that then gave me the confidence
like okay when i lift that patient i don't have
to be worried because i can pull whatever it
is or i can pick the sandbag up which is you
know even worse than the patient so patient to
your point the the gym i think is a really important
place for you to to to create that confidence
again in your body knowing that you're not gonna
fall apart the next time you ask you to do something
yeah no exactly that was my point if you know
that you can lift more you do more hey i just
did more yesterday at the gym or we just did
a skills course and i did way more than that
mentally it puts you in the right place and then
you're not trying to compensate somewhere else
you know what i mean or lift something else and
get hurt again you're not going to re -injure
that so yeah exactly absolutely well you mentioned
about coming from this you know smaller town
were there any aha moments when you yourself
are now the one from the family in the uniform
seeing you know the vegas area behind the curtain
um yeah so our little town here we have a volunteer
fire department and you know when i turned 18
i signed up for it um and i got to run a bunch
of calls out here we live on a two -lane highway
and i got to see some gnarly gnarly traffic that's
right when i was 18 multiple fatalities cars
crashes head -ons with semi -trucks um and that
kind of you know got me into it and i'm like
actually i really do want to do this i enjoy
helping these people out here i remember one
call specifically out here we had a head -on
on this highway and um the lady was in the back
seat and her brother and her husband were in
the front and they both were killed and and this
i'm 18 i think just a volunteer out here helping
i'm with her because she's probably likely she
was probably the least uh had the least amount
of injury And I'm sitting and talking with her
and all she did is sit there and thank us. Thanks
for coming out. Thanks for helping. I'm like,
you just lost your brother and your husband and
you're sitting here thanking me for helping you.
That's really what got me into the fire service.
But I'm wanting to do this and help out like
that. And that was at 18. And that's why I was
like, I know I'm going to do this when I'm done
racing. This is what I want to do. But being
from our little town here, it's going down into
Vegas. I mean, we see. We cover the Strip, and
I was on the Strip as a rookie for a couple years,
and then when I promoted to be an engineer, we
have a fire station right at the bottom of the
Aria Casino, and we're right there on the Strip,
and it's a rough station. You don't want to stay
there too long because you're not getting any
rest, and it's actually quite miserable in the
summertime there. You're up all night running
on not the most favorite calls, actually stupid
calls, a lot of drunk people. Yeah, I mean, we
see some, Vegas is pretty gnarly. I don't think
my family, we kind of, I kind of tell my wife,
she's kind of out here in the middle of nowhere
and she doesn't really have a clue what's going
on in Vegas, which is a good thing, you know
what I mean? But there's definitely some, Vegas
is a crazy place and Vegas is busy. I mean, every
weekend, there's millions of people come to Vegas,
whether it's Formula One, we just had the NFR
rodeo there. Well, it's a Raiders game. Now they
got a hockey team. They're building the A stadium.
I mean, Vegas is popping off right now. It's
crazy. You mentioned the wrecks that you had
near your town. What were the backstories between
the head -on collisions? Were they impatient
drivers trying to pass or what were you seeing
over and over again? There's a lot of impatient
drivers. There's a lot of sleepy drivers out
here. I don't know if you've been out in the
West Coast much, but from my house to Las Vegas.
it's 74 miles and there's probably four turns
in the road it's nothing but dead straight and
it goes for miles like at one point i can see
the road 50 miles down and this is dead straight
going to the desert um and honestly we had talked
about being my small town a lot of people go
to vegas for work and there's construction guys
who leave here at two in the morning in the summer
work in vegas and come back um this is kind of
a story that's kind of close to my heart but
uh We had a good guy here in our little town
that was a fireman. He worked with my dad. Every
once in a while, they'd carpool as firemen here,
but he was taking the engineer's academy, so
he had to stay after. He didn't carpool. And
I think he'd had a rough night at work, and he
went to the engineer's academy in the morning
when he got off work, and then he grabbed a couple
groceries for his wife and was on the way home.
Not sure what happened, but he went head -on
with a semi -truck, and he didn't make it. They
lived literally two doors down from us in this
little town. My wife was best friends with his
wife. I obviously knew him because he was on
the fire department. He had three kids. And yeah,
it was a tough situation. But it's sleeping.
I think a lot of it's sleepy drivers and impatient
drivers on this highway. It's pretty dangerous.
We've had quite a few construction workers who
are from our little town that have fallen asleep.
And they've had bad accidents on this highway
and have passed away. So I guess it's part of
living out in the middle of nowhere, I guess
you'd say, but yeah. The sleep conversation comes
up a lot. It's something I talk about constantly.
I mean, I don't know if it's come across your
radar, but, you know, even looking at the shifts
and the number of hours that we work in the fire
service at the moment. And then also when we
start, you know, a lot of us do commute. I commute
at an hour and a quarter. basically usually each
way for most of my career okay yes exactly so
yeah you know yeah so you know you're you're
having to get there at 7 7 30 to relieve whoever
your your person is you know early so they can
get home before they get banged out again so
we're getting up you know four some people are
getting up even earlier um or five in my case
excuse me and so you're sleep deprived even on
the way to work and then you go to work and then
you have your hopefully 24 god forbid 48 hour
shift and then we're driving back and you know
how many of us do we lose on the way home you
know and whether it was deliberate and it's a
mental health issue whether it was accidental
with the sleep you know these are these are big
parts of the conversation you know if you're
going to ask someone to come in and not sleep
for 24 hours we've got to give them the rest
and recovery to make sure that they can get home
safely as well yeah honestly i think probably
The biggest con of being a fireman in Las Vegas,
and I'm not complaining at all, but the biggest
thing is the sleep for me. I didn't really realize
it until I was an engineer at Station 32 in Las
Vegas on the Strip at ARIA. Vegas is a night
town. If you've been to Vegas, everything is
open 24 hours, and honestly, the city doesn't
even come to life until 9 o 'clock. So we're
working a 24 -hour shift. We are up constantly
all night. we're getting mandatory a lot. So
we do a modified Kelly schedule. So we'll work
24 hours on 24 hour off. We'll do that five times.
And then we are the last one in the Las Vegas
Valley. It does six days in a row of six days
in a row off. So you're going to work 24 hours.
You might get mandatory for 48 and then you'll
do your normal shift and you'll work 72 hours
in a row. And I was at that busy station. Every
time I get mandatory. Someone would call me up
and say, hey, you want to switch? And you can
just stay there at 32. I'm like, well, I'm already
here. So I would literally almost get like 72
hours of not much sleep at all. And then I'd
try to drive home. And then you're trying to
function on a daily basis. I got four kids, you
know what I mean? And I think that was, if I
look back at it, that was probably some of the
darkest times in my career is that sleep deprivation
messes you up. I'm going to be honest with you.
That really messes with your mind. I would come
home. tired, barely not even to function, let
alone trying to be a dad or attend my kids' events.
And I, for some reason, was always just pissed
at my wife. You know what I mean? You're just
angry. You're not yourself. And it messes you
up. I think that's one of the biggest things
of being a fireman is the sleep. And where we're
at in Las Vegas, we're the city that doesn't
sleep. We're known for that. And so that's been
a tough one in my career. I think probably the
biggest thing that... caught my eye when I first
started looking you up and looking at your podcast
was the things that you're talking about and
the shift change and maybe doing, you know, most
of the people in Las Vegas and other fire departments.
So we have Clark County, we have Las Vegas, we
have the city of Henderson, we have North Las
Vegas. Everyone else is on a 4896. But yeah,
I think, and the question has come up and we're
a pretty old school fire department, traditional
thing. Everyone likes their six days. But I would
say that's probably one of the biggest things
that I want to look into is maybe trying to do
the 24 -72 or something like that. Yeah. I mean,
this is it. The science just shows. I don't want
to go down this rabbit hole again because I talk
about it so much on the show. But when you look
at the science, 24 hours is pushing it. And it's
funny because I will ask you the same exact question.
Take your firefighter helmet off now. Now put
on your off -road helmet. pre any of these important
races would you ever not sleep for 24 or 48 hours
before the race absolutely not especially as
i get old you realize how important it is you
know as i get older um absolutely not i think
the dakar rally you're probably not familiar
with the dakar rally but that's one of the it's
known as the toughest race in the world and they
they it's 16 days in a row racing And the reason
that makes it so tough is because you get sleep
deprived. You're racing for 10 or 12 hours a
day. You're coming back and doing the stuff you
need to do to get ready for the next day. And
that's what makes it the toughest race in the
world is that sleep deprivation. And sometimes
at work, it feels like, you know, we're at the
Dakar rally again. Because as I get older and
looking back on it, that's the toughest thing
I would say of being a fireman. Yeah. Well, I
think if you look at the... Anyone that's come
on here that's either on the coaching world or
the athlete side, you know, that is the number
one thing. If you're going to forge performance,
you need to have rest and recovery and sleep
is the absolute most important pillar of health.
I mean, you know, you've got sleep, you've got
water, you've got nutrition. Those are the things
that we 100 % need. And then you look at the
high, you know, the support, like you said, with
Red Bull that is surrounding these high level
athletes. And then you look at the... people
that we rely on on our worst day to save our
children's lives. And the chasm couldn't be any
wider. And it's so crazy that we turn our backs
to all the science on, you know, not only longevity,
but high level performance that we have from
everyone else, tier one operators and high level
athletes and sports scientists. And we say, well,
no, we can just, you know, work 72 hours and
we'll be fine. And you ask, you know, I was having
a conversation with a friend today. In the trucking
world, you can only drive for so many hours before
you have to rest. Now, I'm not saying that that
should be applied directly to the fire service
in a 24 -hour, but certainly have a stipulation
that after that, you need to have rest and recovery.
But you can't drive a semi for more than whatever
it is. I'm making it up, 14, 18 hours. But you
can be behind the wheel of a million -dollar
aerial and not sleep for 72 hours. Perfectly
fine. You can't be at the control of a plane
without X amount of sleep, but you can be behind
the steering wheel of a fire engine or cutting
the roof, you know, four floors up on an apartment
and that's fine. So it's crazy how we've literally
turned our back to all the science that shows
what we need for longevity and performance with
this kind of, we'll just do more with less. And
at what point, you know, is enough enough? And
we actually finally acknowledge. the information
that's out there yeah and i'm sure you've talked
about it on the other shows but just you could
go down a whole nother rabbit another rabbit
hole of just the lack of sleep and how it messes
up your hormones and chemicals and i just had
some blood drawn at red bull and i knew my testosterone
was low because of the sleep habits that we have
in the fire department but and because of my
previous injury and and my testicular torsion
and losing one of my boys But my testosterone
level was like 137 or something like that. Crazy
low. And it's a combination of my previous trauma,
but also the fire department and lack of sleep.
It messes kind of everything up in your body.
You got to have that rest. And so, yeah, exactly.
We could go on and on about it, but it's important.
And let's be honest, it's still a job. We love
it and everything like that. And it's my second
family, but... I look back at those years and
I don't remember, and my wife will tell you right
now, when you were at that station and you were
working all those hours, you were not yourself.
You were not your regular dad. I honestly think
I missed a lot of two years of my kids' lives.
I don't remember when I would go to their volleyball
games or their sporting events and their competitions.
I just remember being in a fog and a haze. You
know what I mean? And I don't really remember
even functioning. My wife's like, you got to
like talk to your kids. I'm like, I don't want
to talk to them. I can barely even like stay
awake. You know what I mean? Let alone. And then
she would say that. And then I get even grouchier
and they get mad at her and it would just kind
of blow up. You know what I mean? It was a, you
looking back at it now, it's, it messes you up.
You know what I mean? So it is important discussion.
And looking at for future firemen, like even
my, my, my oldest daughter just got married and
my son -in -law's thinking about it and what
he wants to do for life and telling him all the
options and business owner. he's at that point
in life where he's trying to figure out what
to do, which is a tough point, you know, and
he's thought about the fire department and we've
talked about the same discussions and stuff like
that and the pros and the cons. And he sees me
when I come home and I'm pretty tired and I just
don't talk, you know what I mean? You can tell
us the difference. So, um, yeah, it's something
that we've got to address and, and help, you
know what I mean? Especially the new firemen
that are coming on and going to work like that.
Yeah. Well, the new firemen that are coming on.
to understand strength and conditioning, emotional
health, relationships. I mean, they're more tuned
in, which is amazing. That's fantastic. But now
it's more glaring than ever. And where we've
really got in trouble, I think, is we've confused
the job, the profession, which I love to the
point where I haven't worn a uniform for seven
years and I'm still advocating for our men and
women. But between that and the way that we're
worked. And in the fire academy, they weren't
telling you you're going to be doing, you know,
56 hours a week and mandatory overtime. And they
were just talking about, you know, pulling hose
and, you know, cardiac arrhythmias and all the
things like the actual job itself. So having
the discussion about better working condition
doesn't mean that you're not into the job. Actually,
it's the opposite. Because if you want to be
a better version of yourself as a medic or a
firefighter, you need the rest and recovery.
Because as you said, if you're, you know, cross
-eyed because you're so exhausted. how effective
are you compared to if you'd been well rested?
So I think this is such an important conversation,
but we've got to shake that kind of ego of it's
soft. If you're talking about wanting time off,
no, like every other high performer in the world
values their rest and recovery. Yeah, no, exactly.
If my dad and my grandpa heard me talking right
now, they'd say, go be in such a little baby
and get to work. I mean, you're fine. You know
what I mean? They did it for 37 years, but yeah,
you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, shake that tradition
you know i mean and be realistic and be like
hey i'm not functioning on my days off or something
you gotta do something about it so but yeah it's
it's we could go down that rabbit hole for a
while all right we're changing the rabbit hole
speaking of holes actually um i had a guest on
rob banghart who was a former addict formerly
homeless And he actually lived in the tunnels
beneath Vegas. And I'd never heard that before.
There's an author, Johan Hari, that first told
me about it. Talk to me about just homelessness
in general. And have you been exposed to that
kind of underground network that I've heard about?
Oh, absolutely. It's insane in Vegas. I mean,
I think almost everywhere in the US, the homeless
is a problem. As firemen, I'm going to say. Of
our medical calls in Las Vegas, I'm going to
say over half are on the homeless. And a lot
of them, it's repeat callers. A lot of them,
this time of year, they're cold or they're hot.
They just want to go to the hospital. It's a
huge problem in Las Vegas. But I was exposed
to it as a rookie. We have our main fire station,
Station 18, right there off the Strip. It's just
east of the Strip on Flamingo. The homeless are
insane there. But there's a whole hierarchy.
I mean, there's the underground tunnels. And
there's like the landlord of this tunnel and
you have to pay rent to this guy to stay down
there and you have to do this. It's insane. I
had no idea. And we've had multiple fires in
the tunnels and we've had multiple fatalities.
They have all their bedding back there. If you
go in the tunnel, they will pull electricity
from a power light or somewhere, run it to the
ground, run it into the storm drain. They'll
have power down there. They'll have microwaves,
toasters, coffee machines. They have beds back
there. They have shelves built. It's really quite
insane. The whole system they have down there,
and we've had fires down there, and we've had
multiple fatalities. I remember, not recently,
but a few years ago, we have our tech team, heavy
rescue team, and we had a tunnel that basically
went from one side of I -15 to the other on the
south end of town, and the whole thing was on
fire, and there ended up being two fatalities
in that one. But it took us... I didn't go down
inside the tunnel or anything like that, but
it was probably four or five hours before we
got all the smoke cleared out of the tunnels.
And I remember sitting there. This is the true
story. I'm sitting in the tunnel. There's smoke
billowing out of it. I'm an engineer, so I'm
just kind of sitting out of the smoke pumping
water. And I remember hearing this noise coming
up out of the tunnel. I'm like, what the heck?
That noise is getting louder and louder. And
the tunnel's just high enough, and there comes
a guy on a scooter. riding a scooter up out of
the tunnel out of the smoke he had his scooter
down he's like yeah i'm about like a half a mile
down into the tunnels where all my stuff is i
saw the smoke so i started riding my scooter
out it's it's crazy that they live down there
like that i had no idea before i got hired Well,
Rob is doing an amazing job now of trying to
help people get out of addiction, get out of
homelessness and doing it in a very holistic
approach. So not just getting clean as far as
the addiction, but housing, job creation, the
whole thing. So you can really put someone back
on their feet again. Whether you're seeing this
through the media, whether you're seeing it firsthand,
what is the reason that you have... such a homeless
problem. I mean, a lot of people talk about the
emptying of psych wards in the Reagan administration.
I would argue that addiction seems to be a large
part of this as well. But what are you seeing
with your own eyes in your area? In my area,
my station where I'm at right now, if I go out
my barn doors, there's a big storm drainage ditch.
And there's probably no less than 150 homeless
right outside there. That whole ditch is full
with tents. They'll come and clean it out once
in a while, and then they'll move back in, or
when it rains, they come out. Literally, I can
take a picture of it, and it looks like a camp
down the entire storm drain. We talk about it
quite a bit, and we run on a lot of the same
people. There's obviously the addiction issue.
I think it's a combination of the mental side.
And then once you combine that with a drug addiction
and the street drugs, it's a bad combination
with mental and drugs. And then you get what
you have there. And then once you get there,
you're desperate and you start doing things,
you know, stealing and cutting wire and copper
down, stealing catalytic converters to try and,
you know, feed that drug addiction. It's a bad,
bad circle. But I think when you combine the
mental side and then you combine it with a drug
addiction, it's... It comes into a bad situation.
It just seems to me, we had a lot, obviously,
in Orange County, Anaheim as well. I'm thinking
about it. I don't remember it as much in Hialeah,
but every city, every municipality has a version
of this. I mean, LA and San Francisco, obviously,
extremely dense. And it just blows me away because
you would assume that the money we spend on the
resources responding to men and women. experiencing
homelessness i think is the right way of saying
it um you could proactively put that into addiction
counseling you know housing job creation mental
health counseling etc etc and are you going to
get everyone of course not but i think you could
get a large part of of those men women children
off the streets if we just gave them the resources
that they need but what you hear more often than
not you know not so much from our profession
but from the law enforcement side is just kind
of shooing them off to another jurisdiction rather
than saying well why are these people on the
streets in the first place you know being an
altruistic nation with you know a lot of our
religious beliefs being about you know helping
and kindness and community how can we address
the nucleus of this problem, which in turn will
then reduce the number of people that are on
the streets. Yeah, it's such a tough situation.
And I think I can guarantee almost all the homeless
people that we've ran on are all alcoholics.
They wake up in the morning, they start drinking
a beer and it's that addiction. That addiction
just tears away at your soul. You know what I
mean? For us, it's weird. I just ran on a homeless
guy who was in our area. So I'm on the northeast
part of town now. Luckily, I'm kind of off the
strip, not quite as busy. And I got a little
bit of seniority. I got a bit off the strip.
But we ran on a guy, Jimmy. He was up in my area.
And I remember running on him 10 years ago as
a homeless person down by Station 18 in Flamingo.
I'm like, Jimmy, what the heck are you doing
up on this side of town, man? And he's been,
I think some of them, whether it's the... The
mental trauma that they have or the combination
of the addiction, but that's what they, he is
completely happy. If you gave him the resources
that he would need to get off the street, he
would not choose that. He would stick to the
street. He's been there for 10, 15 years. That's
what he knows. He knows how to work the system
and get alcohol, get his drugs and go on the
strip and pedal for a little bit, get the money
he needs, then go back off the strip. So I think
there's a lot of people in Las Vegas who have
been homeless for years. They've made a living
out of it. It's what they know. They're comfortable
with it. And they're not going to change. That's
what you know until the day he dies. I guarantee
he's going to be an alcoholic. He's going to
be homeless. Now, if you were to take alcohol
out of the equation, could you maybe get him
up out of the streets? Maybe it would change
him. But he ain't going to choose that right
now. And no matter what you do, you can't make
him. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't
make him drink. You know what I mean? He's going
to choose that. Now, flip it. We also ran out
of a guy that was living in this car. He was
a blot from our station. He says, yeah, I've
got kicked out. I have a job. I go to work. I
cannot pay for rent. He's like, just a single
bedroom apartment? He's like, the one I was in
was $1 ,200 a month. I just got kicked out of.
And it's trash. It's disgusting. Plus, he's got
to pay the other utilities. He's like, I just
can't afford it with my job. I have a car. I
pay my insurance on my car and everything like
that. Perfect example for what you're talking
about. He needs better resources to help him
get off the street to get better, and then he
can kind of establish himself. But it's a slippery
slope, like you say. It's tough. And I'm going
to say about half of the, probably about 50 %
of the homeless that we have would probably choose
to stay on the street. Well, it's interesting.
If you look at some countries in Scandinavia,
I think also Japan, there are nations that have
zero homelessness. And they're human beings just
like us. So the question is, well, what are you
doing differently? What are these factors? And
obviously it's cultural, but we can start today.
Can you save the people that you're talking about?
I mean, there's many that I can think of that,
yeah, that would be a really hard fight. I mean,
they're probably all dead now anyway, but the
ones that are just so far gone that it would
be such a hard uphill battle, still worth the
try, but you probably can't. But that next generation,
you know, and you look at, you know, the opioid
crisis in America, like that was started by a
drug company, you know, predominantly, you know,
the OxyContin crisis that then created the heroin
crisis, which is now the fentanyl crisis. You
know, there's these obvious transitions. 10 %
of our homeless are veterans. So these are men
and women, whether they actually saw combat or
not, that were. serving with the american flag
on their shoulder and now they're living under
a bridge so where are these kind of elements
that we can start addressing it before people
you know become too lost into this void yeah
and that's a good point i think it needs to be
addressed something before like you talked about
and i mean it's definitely an issue in our and
like you say i travel the world quite a bit i
don't i don't you don't see any homeless in you
know i'll be in saudi arabia in a couple weeks
and you know that situation there's Yeah, it's
a different world in other places, but I think,
like you said, you've got to address it in the
beginning before it gets way out of hand. 100%.
Well, speaking of mental health crises, interestingly,
a story that I haven't really managed to find
anyone from that event to come on the show yet,
but your city had a tragic attack a few years
ago. So firstly, were you on when the Vegas shooting
happened? No, I was off. I came in that morning
after they'd been up all night on the shooting.
So I came in that morning. I don't know what
it is about that event, but I feel like unlike
the Pulse shooting, which we had locally here,
which was right next to my old station, with
the Vegas one, it seemed to have come and then
disappeared from the news outlets pretty quickly.
And aside from the, you know, well, what happened?
Who was this person? Why did they do it? element
of it i can imagine being a first responder or
a you know good samaritan that made such a different
that difference that day and then the kind of
story is swept under the carpet not to be discussed
again so that's just my perspective from thousands
of miles away it seemed compared to other events
that we've had what you know what needs to be
told about that event and the impact that it
had on your community um you you kind of hear
that I think you're right. I mean, honestly,
to this day, I still don't know anything about
the shooter, what his motives were, really what
he was from, any of his reasonings or anything
like that. It was kind of, I think now that you
say it, you look at it, you're like, yeah, they
want their people to come to Vegas. And, you
know, Vegas is a town of, we live off of all
the people coming in. So they probably did maybe
sweep it under a little bit. I remember coming
into work that day and my station was clear on
the north end of town out by the speedway. So
we're kind of ways away from where that incident
happened. They got called up obviously to it
and ended up staging right close to it. And there
was a lot of people. We've had a lot of training
and debriefs on it since then. And I think the
biggest thing that we had an issue with was there
was so many good Samaritans who were loading
people in pickup trucks. and injured people and
people who had been shot, throwing them in pickup
trucks and taking them to the emergency room
that they knew of, you know what I mean? And
the emergency rooms were just overwhelmed with
the amount of people that were coming in and
just couldn't handle it because there were just
people just by the pickup trucks, literally bringing
pickup trucks full of people in that were injured.
So we've done a lot of training on that since.
Well, I mean, let's be honest, Vegas, with the
amount of stuff that's going on, the millions
of people that are coming in, like we just talked
about Formula One and everything like that. Unfortunately,
it's probably going to happen again and we need
to be prepared. And our department and the Valley
have done a pretty good job of helping us with
large scale events and being prepared for what
if something does happen again. Did that incident
have a ripple effect? Did it change the way you...
with with equipment with training with that kind
of thing did it did it make people think oh my
goodness you know we need to rethink some things
yeah i think so there's always an event like
that yours you can think of you know a bunch
of things that you could do to improve and i
think uh whether it was metro and the county
and and everyone there's things that we need
to do better we could have done better you know
i mean there's always room to improve and i think
communication is always a big deal and stuff
like that so unfortunately when that does happen
it kind of puts you in your place like okay we
need to train this on this better and the next
one that's going to come is going to be totally
different there's probably going to be a you
know things that we need to do better again on
that one but the level of training we just did
some training uh and it was actually really good
training for uh basically a similar situation
and we have our mactac gear and we have you know
helmets and bulletproof vests and we'll put on
and we'll have the metro with us and it was a
it was probably one of the best trainings that
i've done recently as far as realistic and something
that we're going to probably encounter in the
future the reason i asked that was where i used
to work in orange county the pulse club was My
second Jew. So we had Orlando Station 5's area,
and then we butted up against it. But I'd moved
to the fire department that protects Disney,
and that shooter actually had gone to Disney
Springs first, which was my area currently, but
I was overseas when the shooting happened. So
very strong connection between the two. But I
come back from vacation after this has happened,
expecting to be overwhelmed with, you know, new
trainings being scheduled and equipment. And,
you know, wow, this is a near miss. This almost
happened to us because they have him literally
on film wheeling the guns in a stroller out to
the springs. There's too many cops around. He
loads it all back up and then he goes to pulse
and murders all those people. And but that's
not what happened. It was nothing. Zero. And,
you know, I'm pulling this out of the shadows
partly because it is, you know, public knowledge
that this is what happened. But secondly, there
is no greater training opportunity than a near
miss. It didn't actually happen to you in your
area. So those are the ones that you don't brush
under the carpet. Those are the ones you're like,
my God, we were given a second chance. Let's
make sure that we are ready. God forbid this
happens. But the worst thing you can do is shrug
your shoulders and say, well, it didn't happen.
So we're okay. Yeah. And I think our department,
I mean, they knew that we could have done stuff
better. And they're like, hey, this is probably
going to happen in Vegas again. Let's be honest.
And the other perspective we got, there was actually
quite a few firemen on our department who were
at the event and actually had family members
who. I believe there was a couple from people
from our department that had family members that
were injured from the incident. So, and they
were on scene and we got an inside view of what
they could have done better, what could have
happened better and how it was happening and
what was going on. And so that was kind of helpful
as well. But like you said, it's, I think there
was, you know, you know, two more instances in
the country, you know, this last weekend, it's,
it's unfortunately we could go down a whole nother
rabbit hole of, of that, but it's, it's. unfortunately
not when but it's not if it's when it's going
to happen again in vegas to be honest with you
and so i think we've done a good job of of done
training and and trying to prepare ourselves
what about triage i had john spurr on the show
a few years ago now and he was one of the first
medics on scene in the aurora shooting um years
ago And he was saying that the way the kind of
stark triage was when you actually are in one
of those events, like the respiratory rate, well,
there was tear gas being thrown in and everyone
was running. And, you know, the heart rate, of
course, their heart rate's up. They're terrified.
And so it kind of made you realize that some
of the training. albeit well -intentioned, maybe
didn't have the correct application as we see
so often now, these mass casualty events. Have
you leaned into a different type of triage system
or are you still using the STAR? No, we've gone
through a couple of different triage systems
and we actually have changed within the last
couple of years of a different triage system
as well. And in those events, like when we still
have an active shooter, We're going in quick,
but we're going in with Metro, and we're going
to have Metro guys with us, and they're going
to be protecting us with guns. Obviously, we
don't have guns. We'll just have the helmets
and the vests, but it's more of like a quick
triage. It's kind of like a system, basically.
If they're savable or they can walk, get out.
If not, then we're going to roll on to someone
who's going to have a chance to be saved better
because you don't know how many people are going
to be involved. So we've changed the triage system
a couple of times and the latest one's a little
bit different, but it's flexible because you
just don't know how many people are going to
be involved and how many resources you're going
to have as far as getting people out. They brought
in, I think it was called safe training right
towards the end of my career. I think we did
it in Orange County and then a little bit in
the last place. It was always kind of geared
really towards a school. And we'd had discussions,
especially in Disney, we were like, well, hey,
this happened in Disney Springs. It happened
in one of the theme parks. This really isn't
applicable because you're not clearing room by
room. It's kind of like the lock on. You had
two officers at the front, two officers at the
back, and you'd be working the patients in between.
What has been the adaptation as far as working
with the law enforcement side, protecting you
in some of these large spaces that you also respond
to? For like an active shooter with the law enforcement,
we're going to have the command presence with
both entities there. It's probably the biggest
thing is communicating and then going in as quick
as we can. Obviously, time saves as well if you've
got bleeders and stuff like that. So getting
in quick, but also keeping us safe with Metro
as well. I think the biggest thing that now we
were just talking about it is another thing that
they changed after we call it October shooting,
the Oktoberfest shooting. In Vegas there was,
we also were sending units to the hospitals to
create like another triage system once they get
to the hospitals to help with the influx of people
that are coming to the hospitals. The hospitals
were just overwhelmed at that point. So we're
going to have, they're sending an engine or two.
with a captain and crews and setting up an incident
command system at the hospital as like a second
triage system to help the hospitals and to communicate
hey we're full send these people here send these
people to the next hospital or whatever so i
think that was a one of the big pullaways from
that event for future training Really interesting.
And this is why these conversations need to happen.
This is why we need to learn from these events.
And we can't kind of brush them under the rug
or ignore them if they didn't happen on our front
yard, because there's so much value in storytelling,
having the humility to say this didn't go as
well as we expected, which is fine. It was an
absolute disaster scene. Of course, not everything's
going to be going right. But what can we learn
from it? And then what as a profession nationally
or internationally, can we then share with everyone
else? Hey, this happened. We tried this. You
know, we put a triage station up at the ER itself.
So all these good Samaritans, we could actually
triage them before they go into the ER or even
send them to a different hospital. That's the
first time I've heard that. I mean, these lessons
are so important and it's not about judging and
shaming departments if everything didn't go right.
It's just the only thing we can do from a bad
event is learn the lessons that we got from them.
Yeah, no, exactly. Swallow your pride and what
can we do to become better? It happened. we need
to be better. Obviously we can be better. And
even in our trainings, like our Mac tech trainings
with Metro and stuff, every training we'll do
a hot wash and like, Hey, this could have been
better. And we just did that training. It was
less than a month ago. And I'm like, this is
actually a real situation. We could have done
this better. I didn't even hear what was happening
in the other room. You know what I mean? And
there's just so much you can learn from, from
those situations. But like you said, from the
situation, pulling from it and be like, Hey,
and we did the, our department did a whole breakdown
of it. We had. Our first captain who was on due
did a great job, but he was just a brand new
captain there. And they were actually already
out when they first got the call. And then the
other thing too is they were getting so many
911 calls because people were running into different
casinos. And so that casino would call 911. And
then they were thinking they were having an active
shooter in that casino. And so they didn't know
how many active shooters they had. And that really
was throwing everyone off. And then you were
trying to send people to that casino. You started
trying to send crews and fire stations, trucks
to that casino. And it was really, at the beginning,
it was, honestly, it was, like you said, it was
a mess. No one had a clue of what was really
happening or what was going on. We had reports
of active shooters all up and down the whole
entire strip because people were just running
in that were injured and saying they were shot,
you know. So a lot to learn from those situations
and a lot to improve upon for sure. What about
post -event as far as the mental health of the
responders? What did that look like? And again,
were there any things that were done well, any
things that maybe weren't that would need to
be discussed and revamped? Yeah, our department,
and I think all departments, are trying to ramp
up and do better with the mental health side,
right? I remember I came in that morning, and
a lot of the guys who were coming in, we were
basically... relieving a lot of the guys who
had just been there all night and they were all
going to our training center and they were basically
going to kind of have a hot wash and go over
everything. And anyone who needed extra help
or anyone who was struggling or had questions,
it basically set up, you could almost call it
like almost like another command post at our
training center for all the guys who had just
ran the call. And they went over there and went
over everything that they had questions and,
and, uh, we've hired, um, you know, like a nurse
and everything that kind of helps with our mental
side as well. And I know she was there and took
care of a lot of stuff. So they're trying to
do better because it is, it is right. Those are,
we know that they can have an effect on us mentally.
And so they're trying to do better. Obviously,
just like the whole incident, there was things
that we needed to do better and that we can do
better in the future for those situations. But
I do remember that basically everyone that was
involved in it went straight to our training
center. and tried to get a rundown and go over
everything that happened. And if they needed
help to stay there before they went home to their
families, you know. Oh, good. Speaking of that,
we're going to get to Jonathan and Ketamine in
a little bit. When you reflect back now, you
know, we talked about sleep deprivation. We talked
about TBIs, you know, even, even the kind of
mental health struggle when you're rehabbing
from an injury, what have been the. the lows,
if any, as far as your career and the emotional
mental health, and then what have been some of
the tools that you've used to, to pick yourself
up again? Um, for me, like just listening to
the stories kind of growing up, I think maybe
I have like a, I wouldn't say like a, an emotional
support crew, but I grew up listening to those
stories. And so I was not really prepared for
them. But my family would come home and talk
about them, my dad and his dad. And probably
not the greatest thing, but I think that's the
way they kind of coped with it. You know what
I mean? They talked about it and talked about
their calls and the instances. And I think they
got it off their chest. You know what I mean?
And to this day, I mean, I don't come home and
tell my wife a lot of the calls and stuff because
she doesn't want to hear that. But if I need
to, I can talk to my dad about it. I don't think
a lot of other people have that resource. I'm
kind of lucky, maybe a little bit different,
where it is I have those resources. And I go
up to my grandpa's house to this day, and he's
92 years old. He's pretty dang old and can barely
move. But I go up there, and that's all he does
is talk about his calls. And I was there with
my kids the other night, and I got to where I'm
like, I need to start recording his. He's not
going to be around much longer. I need to start
recording all his stories. And we've heard the
stories. It's the same story that he tells over
and over. But I actually did record the story.
I set my phone up on the table and recorded it.
And he was telling my kids, I think my daughter
had asked him what was the first fatality he
saw. And he says, I remember when I was first
on the fire department, we went into a room,
we pushed the door open, and there was an eight
or nine -year -old girl who was dead. And we
could see on her door. Because of the soot, we
could see her hand marks trying to find the door
and trying to get out of the room. And he's like,
that stuck with me. And that was, shoot, that
was, you know, 60 years ago. And he remembers
that to this day. And he told that story. I was
able to record it. But not that that's coping
with it. And that stuck with him since that day.
I'm sure he'll never forget that. And he told
my kids that. It was kind of cool that my kids
got to hear that. It was a pretty traumatizing
story. But that's kind of the way that. For us
as a family, I guess we've kind of coped with
it as we talk about those stories and the tragedies
that we were able to try and help with, you know
what I mean? Yeah, it's a horrible story, but
we're there trying to help that person, you know
what I mean? And we've got to save a few of those
incidences and change the situation for those
people. So I think it's a little bit different
for me, but that helps being in the firefighter
family, if that makes sense, James. Yeah, no,
it does. It does. The ability just to talk. I
mean, Dana Ali was on here years ago, and I remember
her saying that, you know, in theory, we shouldn't
even have peer support teams. And what she was
saying was if we actually were cohesive as a
station and really created an environment for
us to be. vulnerable in front of each other and
and the fire uh you know the dining room table
was still a place where everyone talked and there
were no phones then that is your peer support
you know that is your ability to offload and
it sounds like you had that with this generational
firefighter family at home yeah and that's a
perfect way of putting it i've never thought
of that too but like we shouldn't have peer support
teams because we should be that family at the
dinner table and i come home to my family and
i have that we should be able to have that at
station. And maybe I need to do better at doing
that with the newer guys who are at my stations.
And they can come and talk to us in the mornings
when we're having, you know, before we get relieved.
That's a good point, James. I need to do better
at that and make sure those guys can open up
to me and be in their support team instead of
going. I mean, honestly, with my history and
tradition, I'm not going to probably go to the
hug lady or whatever you want to call it and
talk to her about certain situations. Maybe I
need to talk to him about my cruise in the morning
when we get off. And we do do that to a certain
extent. You know what I mean? Everyone grabs
their coffee or Red Bull in the mornings and
sits at the table and talks about the shift that
we had. Maybe we need to do better at that. I
think maybe that's a tradition that's maybe kind
of gone away from the fire department. I remember
my dad and my grandpa talking about that. They
would sit and talk about it. And that was literally
their second family away from home that they
ate, slept with, and fought fire with. And they
would talk about those conversations on their
days off. Maybe we need to do better at that.
Yeah. Well, it really broke my heart. I'd left
the fire service almost just in time, really,
when COVID happened. And I'd hear of these fire
stations and they weren't allowed to sit next
to each other, weren't allowed to eat with each
other. And, you know, you've got probably in
some cases, less calls in more dense populated
areas, more calls, a lot more fatalities. And
then they're coming back and, you know, don't
have that at all. And then you add in the smartphones
and you've got this. It's kind of destruction
of exactly what it used to be. And, you know,
earlier in my career, like Anaheim, that was
it. We'd sit at the dining room table for hours
sometimes talking until we got a call. Yeah,
no, exactly. And I think we're getting away from
that. Like you say, maybe COVID helped start
that, but we need to kind of go back to that
and help these newer guys coming in for sure.
Be more of a family to them, be the support team
to them. So that's something that I think we
could do better for sure as a fire department.
Absolutely. Well, we mentioned Jonathan Edwards.
How we were connected was the fact that he was
now using ketamine to help when it comes to the
mental health side. I think anesthesiology is
his world. And he's not the first person out
on the show that came through that profession
and then found the therapeutic mental effects
of that drug. Have you actually yourself gone
down that path? I have not. Jonathan has become
a personal friend. and we've talked about it,
and we haven't really talked about this, but
I've been able to do some military training,
and I've been able to work with some of the top
SEALs in the U .S. and do a bunch of their training
as far as, I don't know if you know this, but
the SEALs use off -road motorcycles more so now.
They use side -by -sides. We have an M version
of the Polaris Razor, which is the military version
of the Razor, and they also have an off -road
truck that they use for some of their... stuff
and i've been able to work with with some of
those guys and amazing guys and and the military
i know that those guys are using that route and
there's even more um we were just talking about
this weekend actually with the group of vets
that were at the race with us that we're doing
and there's um even more than the ketamine i
can't remember what it's called but they're going
yes they're going down to mexico it's not on
tijuana and they're doing those quite a bit And
I know that even those guys that were talking
this weekend, it's helped them out quite a bit.
Yeah, even from the TBI side, they're showing
that I think Ibogaine and psilocybin both are
having... you know brain healing properties basically
neurogenesis or neuroplasticity whatever the
official term is for the healing that they're
seeing but yeah the damage is actually being
um healed and we used to think the brain was
like you know when it was done it was done you
couldn't bring it back but they're they're seeing
some of these plant medicines actually you know
change that and see see growth again so not only
you addressing the psychological issues a lot
of these people have but also the physiological
issues so it's very exciting in the first responder
military world and for us as well there's the
343 fund there's a siren project there are organizations
that will send firefighters you know emts medics
cops to these same type of retreats really i
did not know that so they were asking me Is there
any, do you know of any, are they sending firemen
down there? Is there any firemen that are doing
that? And I said, I don't think so. I didn't
actually know that. And I know that the military
is getting big on it, especially with some of
the retired SEALs and stuff like that. They're
huge into it. And it's helping a lot of the guys.
And I actually did not know that there was firemen,
first responders that are going down and doing
that. Yeah, I'm actually going to be doing a
version of that in February, if everything stays
as it is. Because for me, it's less. I'd say
less about TBIs. I was a martial artist most
of my life, and a lot of people punched me and
kicked me in the head. And I did stunts, so there
was some of those where you took a hard hit.
But also, it's like the thing beneath the thing.
I've never been troubled, kind of like you. I
think the kind of family that I grew up with,
I grew up on a farm. There's a lot of healing
elements to my upbringing, despite the traumas.
But there's the brain fog. not feeling like you
ever get like a full deep, deep night's sleep.
There's, you know, GI issues. There's some things
like, okay, there's clearly some shit that I'm
not seeing that I wouldn't need to unpack. So
I'm hoping that that will be, you know, that
little, you know, find that little chest that's
locked away somewhere in our minds that you can
open and start processing it. And now you, you
know, because it's for me, it's about optimizing
now. I'm not struggling. I don't have flashbacks
or any of the things that some of our men and
women struggle with. But how much better can
you just be as a husband, as a parent, as a writer,
as a firefighter, whatever it is, if these are
going to unlock the next level? And I think this
is a good argument in mental health. Stop thinking
about it as in it's a weakness. I'm broken. These
same therapeutics can forge performance. You
will be better at primary searches on the roof,
your pediatric codes. You will be an optimal
firefighter if you can address the things that
need to be addressed within your mind, within
your body. So I think if we look at this as a
performance -enhancing tool as well, it takes
away some of that stigma that's around not only
the mental health conversation, but also the
drug conversation. Yeah. And it's funny, we were
just literally talking about this last night
and the night before. The owner of our race team
I've become really good friends with, and he'd
gone down and done it in Mexico. And he's like,
I cannot believe it's not legal in the U .S.
for what he was doing. And he's like, I don't
tell many people this. And he ended up telling
the story. And the way that it helped him, it's
literally life -changing. So he's actually taken
multiple vets down there and helped them do it
as well. And he actually ended up taking some
of his family members down there and his girlfriend.
Because for him, he's like, the way he told me
the story, and just to hear how it changed his
life, that's huge. And it's still affecting him,
and it's made him a better person to this day.
He's like, it was a great experience for me.
I'm like, I'm kind of like you, where I really
haven't had those issues. I've had a lot of concussions,
so it's probably coming down to that. Was it
USLA? And I've had over 25 good concussions.
I've had eight or 10 times where I've been knocked
out and don't remember anything for a long time.
So I'm sure maybe down the road it's coming.
But luckily with my family and my faith and everything
like that, I've been able to not have any issues
and mentally haven't had those issues, but I
know that they're real. And if there's something
that we can do to fix it, how good is that? Or
to even help with it or help these guys cope
with it. We should be taking advantage of that.
Yeah. Well, I mean, even going back to what we
talked about earlier, imagine if people had access
to, you know, some of these therapeutics, Ibogaine,
for example, imagine the impact on homelessness
in America. Like you could just get someone to
basically zero out their opioid addiction, their
alcoholism, which we're seeing. Exactly, or to
reset it, whereas there's no other way that we
know of right now in our, you know, we cannot
do that. And some of the military guys we're
talking about, it was like a reset button for
them. and their issues you know i mean how huge
can that be you know so yeah that's a pretty
interesting topic for sure absolutely well i
want to go to some closing questions be mindful
of your time before we do though are there any
other elements that you want to talk about or
even any other kind of calls as we reflect as
far as you progressing you through your career
Um, no, not really. I mean, it's been a, like
you said, it's, it's, it's interesting because
of my family history and everything like that.
But, uh, uh, it's been a, it's been a good career
for me. I've really enjoyed it. Um, for me, I'm
almost kind of doing two careers. I'll do the
racing thing. And sometimes I just come back
and I'm like, I'm so glad to just go back to
work to sit with my fire station guys and just
to run a couple of calls. And, and the racing
can get stressful to me, to, to be honest with
you, not to sound like a baby, but it's a lot
of work. It's a lot of travel and it's a lot
of stress. Um, just like we're getting ready
for Dakar this year and we've got some big sponsors
and those sponsors are expecting us to do really
good. And, uh, you know, Ford's put a lot of
money into our program and if they're spending
that much money, they want to win. Anyway, there's
a lot of stress. And so sometimes it's, it's
good for me to just come home and I go to the
fire station and go to work. So I've really enjoyed
pretty lucky to have the fire department and
then also the racing career. It's, it kind of
helps each other hand in hand, to be honest.
You just hit on a topic. Actually, I'll just
quickly go to that. We were talking about the
work week. One of the pushbacks that I've had
is, well, if we give these guys more time off,
they'll just work more. And I've always said,
well, firstly, that's a very arrogant thing to
say. You don't own these people. They just work
when they're supposed to be working. But there's
a difference between having so many vacancies
that there's so much overtime that work more
means more hours at your fire department and
another sleepless night versus doing something
on the side. And if you had a fully staffed four
platoon system, 2472, that's, you know, attracted
people back into the fire service. So you've
got nice long lists again, like we used to. And
so the overtime now is few and far between still
there, you know, especially for events and stuff,
but not crippling like it is at the moment. Now
you've got the opportunity for more rest and
recovery and time to focus on something else
that you love doing. And this is exactly kind
of what you're doing at the moment, even though
the shifts aren't set up for this. But you've
got another entire profession. You've got another
entire tribe, another identity, another ability
to make money so that, God forbid, you can't
be a firefighter anymore. You've got a safety
net. And I think that's so important. You know,
just being a firefighter. there's a lot of downsides
to that including when you transition out everything
that you were is gone versus you've got this
side passion that you also do where you know
apart from when you're racing obviously every
night you're in your bed you know with your your
family and you know um you know having dinner
and all the things you're not working overnight
so i think there's so much to be said for being
all in for 24 hours And then being passionate
about something on your days off as well. I think
that's a good thing, not a bad thing, as long
as you're not working throughout the night every
night. Yeah, and I agree. Like my dad, he had
nothing else. His party part was his life. He
retired. And I remember going over to the house
one day. He lives not too far from me. He's like,
I used to have respect and a job. Now I'm just
your mom's laundry folder. He didn't know what
to do when he first retired. You know what I
mean? Um, you gotta have that. I think just like
we were talking about sports, right? These kids
are all in one sport their whole entire life.
They just get burned out and then they don't
know what else to do. Um, for me, like, like
talking about it, it's almost like a release.
I go to the fire department and have a few calls,
stressful nights, long nights, and then I can
come home and do that racing thing. And it kind
of like is another reset for me and helps me
mentally. Same thing when I'm done racing or
whatever, like I was just talking about. When
I'm stressed out about that, I can come back
and go to the fire station. It kind of helps
me reset as well. I think it's good to have.
You've got to have that stuff, right? You've
got to have something to fall back on to release
that stress. Let's be honest. I mean, the fire
department, it can wear on you. You've got to
have something when you get home, whether it's
a project or something like that, to work on
just like we're talking about. So I agree with
you on your scheduling. Yeah, you're going to
have more guys sign up or whatever, but that's
going to be the guys that want to sign up and
work, that are willing to work. You're not forcing
the guys who knows what someone's going through,
whether it's a divorce or something at home as
well as the job, and it's just stressing them
out to the max. It's going to give those guys
an opportunity to rest up and kind of mentally
reset, and you need that. Yeah. Well, even, you
know, the cause of the divorce is, as you said,
when we go home and we're exhausted and then,
you know, you're supposed to be home. There's
an event you're going to do with your partner
or your children. And now you've got to call
them and say, hey, I got forced. I'm not coming
home after all. Now that other partner has to
be a single parent for another 24, 48 hours on
top of what they're trying to do. You know, these
are all fractures to our relationships with our
partners, with our children. So when you get
people home when they're supposed to, you know,
for 42 hours a week. the impact that it's going
to have on relationships in the fire service
is going to be amazing so hopefully you won't
have any as many people going through divorces
and these kind of things because yes there might
be a you know like with my first marriage just
those two personalities weren't destined to be
together forever but i've got lots of friends
that were head over heels in love with their
partners and i watched the job break them down
and it destroyed their marriage and it was the
job that did it you know the way that they were
worked rather than how we could do it in a healthy
way. So I think that we joke about the people
saying in 10 years, you'll be on your third divorce
and have an alcohol problem. There's nothing
funny about that. And we can turn that around.
If you went to a bank or a supermarket or whatever,
and that was what they told you at the front
door, you'd be like, what the fuck are you doing?
How is that a thing in this business? But in
our profession, we laugh about it. So I think
we could really make it an emotionally and relationship.
healthy profession if we address this issue too
so i mean there literally are no downsides to
be honest but this is a massive one imagine if
you had a lot of firefighter marriages that stayed
intact that in itself is worth the fight there's
always room for improvement right and this is
an area that i see that we need to improve upon
and i've already talked to one of my good friends
who's a chief and said hey what do you think
about this what can we do about this and i think
we're a long ways out but i think it's something
that needs to be addressed my good friend who's
on the fire department he told me when i was
at station 32 he's like dude that station almost
cost me my marriage i'm like i was i i knew it
dude i like i know like now that i look back
on it i'm like you're absolutely right he's like
no dude it's like i'm telling you i was not the
same person i'm like i know he's exactly right
so there's definitely things that we need to
do to improve right and it's sooner the better
because we're changing lives so yeah i really
appreciate what you're doing with that to be
honest with you and i'd love to have you come
out and to our fire station and talk and work
on things that we need to do to get that you
know changed yeah well i hope it becomes a nationwide
you know, profession standard. I mean, it really
does. So the rising tide lifts all ships. The
first, you know, early adopters obviously are
going to forge a path. Plano, Texas has just
gone to it. They're doing it in four years, but
they've initiated it now. So that's a lot closer
to you. You know, the West Coast is... It's interesting,
like Southern California, it's like, you know,
they've never even thought of that concept. But
if you go Pacific Northwest, they actually have
four platoons, but they have debit days. So their
thing is obviously we'll make those debit days
go away. So all these different things, the Northeast
has been working 42 hours for a long, long time.
So it's getting all these wires to connect, getting
these people to realize, A, you know, they deserve
it and their families deserve it. B, it's absolutely
possible. C, the money is there. It's just all
downstream with overtime. And then D, how do
you figure out how to work in your department?
If Plano, Texas can do it in four years, you
can do it in four years. So I think, I feel it's
exciting. So, but if I can help in any way, just
let me know. Will do for sure. All right. Well,
the first of the closing questions, is there
a book or are there books that you love to recommend?
It can be related to our discussion, excuse me,
our discussion today or completely unrelated.
uh dr jonathan uh edwards has written a couple
books and that are really good and john's really
good at uh he understands the mental side as
well being an athlete himself and being a doctor
now and jonathan's put out some really great
books you can look up his website uh jonathan
edwards but you've had him on there before as
well i'd recommend those for sure absolutely
what about uh films documentary television any
of those that you love Documentaries. I love
documentaries. Hearing about people that do amazing
things that inspire me. I'm flying a lot overseas
and everything like that. And on our flights,
I always get to watch a documentary. And for
me, motivating documentaries are people that,
extraordinary people who do things and accomplish
things. It's just amazing that motivates me.
I love good documentaries. I can't think of one
offhand that I've just watched or anything. uh
for me also podcasts and i travel a lot like
we talk about even to work two hours a day for
me podcasts that are uh motivating um that talk
to people i mean you've even had some great podcasts
as well of people that are motivating that are
just doing great things in life and that inspire
me to be better you know what i mean so podcasts
and documentaries like that are really good and
like i'll get off work in the morning drive two
hours to alamo I'll pop in a good podcast and
it kind of helps me reset as well. So just doing
those things and listening to those things that
are positive and upbeat that make you want to
be a better person. I like a lot of the military
podcasts as well, you know, that the Sean Ryan
show and just talking to people have done amazing
things in life, makes me want to be a better
person, inspires me and helps me to realize that
I don't have life that bad, you know. Speaking
of amazing people, is there a person that you'd
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest
to speak to the first responders, military, and
associated professions of the world? Yeah, I'll
give you. I've got a good fire. One of our battalion
chiefs, who's now our assistant chief, he was
a captain of mine for a while. He's just a good,
inspiring person, good person. He's always working
hard, doing better. You need to talk to him and
you need to talk him into making sure that our
department gets on to the different schedule.
We can make that happen. All right. Well, then
the last question before we make sure everyone
knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress?
Family. Spend time with my kids. I don't get
to see them quite as much as I can, but just
my kids are inspiring to me and want me to be
a better dad. You know what I mean? There's not
much you can do in this life that you can take
with you, but I believe that your family and
the associations that you have with your kids
and the way that you raise your kids is going
to stick around forever. It's going to be your
legacy. Being able to spend time with my kids,
try to help them to become better, be an example
to them is something that just... And for our
belief and our religious, that's what this life's
all about, is being able to raise good family,
raise good kids who are going to be productive
in society. And my kids are inspiring to me to
see the things that they love to do, to watch
their lives develop and stuff like that. It's
a great, great reset to me, just being able to
spend some time with my kids and being able to
see how simple they take life. And yeah. And
family is important to us in my faith and stuff
like that. So, you know, I'll stick with family.
And then also, I love mountain biking and motorcycle
riding. If I need to reset or go get some exercise,
I'll go mountain biking or I'll go ride my motorcycle.
And it's the ultimate, you know, just clears
my mind. It's a good, you know, mental workout
and a good physical workout. It's something that,
it's my go -to. I don't get to do it very much
anymore. And you got to be careful not to get
hurt, but that's my go -to is mountain biking
or going to ride in motocross. Love it. Yeah.
With the family, I think this is what I've talked
about a lot with, you know, just, just again,
the environment that we're talking about a minute
ago, as far as the way we're worked, there's
a lot of chasing of money, you know, when it
comes to negotiations, it's the pay raises, but
I always say, well, what's the ultimate currency?
The ultimate currency, in my opinion, is time
with your family. because you can never, ever
get that back. So, you know, that's the same
as you. For me, that's what I always look forward
to. That was my decompression was time with family.
So sometimes that gets a little blurred, especially
when we're exhausted and, you know, running to
the ground. But if not for them, then who? Yeah,
no, exactly. And I got to find a balance. You
know, we're always trying to balance in life,
but my balance is off right now. I'm going to
be honest with you. with the fire department
and in order for me to make all my races i do
a bunch of shift trades which are allowed to
do so when i am home i'm not actually home i'm
at the fire station repaying people back for
all my shift trades and unfortunately my family's
kind of taking the back seat it seems like so
i need to do a reset and figure out a better
balance in my life right now as well and put
my family first so i'm glad we were able to talk
about it today yeah me too well for people listening
if they do want to learn more about you follow
you where are the best places online I'm old,
so I'm horrible at social media. Red Bull says
I even need to do better and I get in trouble
for not posting a bunch of stuff. But Kellen
Walsh, K -E -L -L -O -N, Walsh, W -A -L -C -H,
at Instagram, Facebook. Also the Dakar Rally.
If you follow the Dakar Rally, if anyone's interested
in the Dakar Rally or knows what it is, if you
don't, it's quite interesting. It's getting ready
to happen in January. It's the longest, toughest
offer. off -road race in the world. The Dakar
rally .com has a website. It's a daily updates.
It's, I think it's in like 90 different languages
and broadcast all throughout the world. If you
go to Europe or anywhere else in the world, the
Dakar rally is huge. Everyone knows what it is.
Not quite as big in the U S but it's getting
bigger, but we have the Dakar rally coming up
in January. It's in Saudi Arabia. Ford puts out
a good, they do a good documentary on it. I can
send you the links. to the documentary from last
year uh ford did a really good job um so uh myself
and i we never talked about this but i'm just
a i'm just a navigator i don't even drive right
now um but uh my driver's name is mitch guthrie
we're getting ready to do deck car so it's the
big one for us it's like the super bowl um so
that's our biggest race in january and it's pretty
interesting to follow if you're not familiar
with it check it out and follow along in january
it's it's it's intense brilliant well good luck
i'm sure i'll speak to you before but uh With
that being said, I want to thank you so much.
I mean, like we said, we had to kind of go back
and forth to make this work, as you alluded to,
your station or your training or your racing.
So I'm so glad that we got to sit down. I mean,
we've been all over the place today with our
discussion. So I want to thank you. Yeah, we
have. So I want to thank you. I wasn't sure what
we were going to talk about. But no, no, I appreciate
your patience with me. I've enjoyed it. And like
I said, ever since Jonathan told me about you,
I've really enjoyed your podcast. It's helped
me. Pass the drive time a lot, actually, with
some good, valuable information. So thanks for
what you're doing. Keep up the good work.