WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the

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first staffing software to be truly firefighter

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proof. Now you may be wondering why I have software

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as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical

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and mental health of the first responders, and

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I will tell you exactly why. For the first time,

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this is a staffing platform that also is able

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to integrate wellness information through core

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load tracking, exposures, and wearables integration.

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Now, of course, StationWise focuses on staffing

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and allows you to manage staffing, choose vacation

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picks, put in rules for leave and trades, and

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even deploying strike teams. But through the

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latest programming and AI automation, they have

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streamlined this process to free up battalion

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chiefs so they can focus on what they're supposed

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to be doing on the operational side and the fire

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ground. Now, StationWise is also able to monitor

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not only how many calls we've responded to in

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a shift, but the duration of the call, therefore

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the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring

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the sleep deprivation that degrades our health

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and performance. It's accessible not only through

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the computer, but also on Apple and Android devices,

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meaning that you can access it not only within

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the station itself, but outside as well. Now,

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one of the most powerful features of StationWise,

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in my opinion, is the ability to run reports.

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Therefore, for example, be able to see just how

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much money is being used on overtime that could

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actually be front -loaded for proactive staffing,

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as well as setting alarms knowing when you are

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hitting overtime parameters. And another important

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feature is the integration of other programs

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and software for payroll, training, reports,

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etc. Now, StationWise is trusted by numerous

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agencies in California, Texas, and Idaho. And

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if you want to hear the full story from the founder,

00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.439
who he himself is a son of a firefighter, listen

00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:08.680
to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you

00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.979
want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise

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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Geering, and this

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week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the

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show 33 -year fire service veteran and former

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training chief for Chicago Fire Department, Pete

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Van Dorp. So in this conversation, we discuss

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a host of topics from Pete's own journey into

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the fire service, the training and mental health

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conversations back then, the resistance to fire

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service innovation. his work with Underwriters

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Laboratory, some exciting technology that's coming

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to our profession, the recruitment crisis, moral

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injury, his wanderlust, and so much more. Now,

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before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost twelve hundred episodes now. So all I

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ask in return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women stories so I can get them to every

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single person on planet Earth who needs to hear

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them. So with that being said, I introduce to

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you Pete. Van Dorp. Enjoy. Pete, I want to start

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by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our

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mutual friend Lionel Crowther for even making

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the introduction. We both presented in California

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about a year ago now. And secondly, I want to

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welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast

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today. Thank you. Yeah, Lionel's a great guy.

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And he's one of the best friends I made in the

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fire service. I retired, retired with a capital

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R a couple of years ago, but I made an exception

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for Lionel. It really was an exception. I committed

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to doing something for him many years ago, and

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we never were able to put it together until just

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last year. So, yeah, and that's where we met

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with a couple other folks. It was a great time.

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Absolutely. It's the same thing. I don't like.

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doing public speaking normally so when he asked

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me and uh you know it was to do with louis as

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well i'm like okay well how can we say no to

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those two amazing men exactly they're hard guys

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to say no to yeah with all that they do yeah

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absolutely well very first question because this

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is an interesting kind of uh response to this

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firstly where on planet earth are we finding

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you today you're finding me in westmont which

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is a suburb of chicago west of chicago And where

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will we be finding you in about 10 days time?

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In 10 days time, you'll be finding me in Los

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Angeles. Briefly. You want me to go right into

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it or you want to ask? I do. Yeah, because I

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think I think there's so much value in, you know,

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post service and adventure rather than, you know,

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just watching watching the number of years countdown

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and then playing golf till you die. So talk to

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me, I guess roll back a little bit. Talk to me

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about the traveling you do in your van and then

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we'll get to the cruise. OK, so, yeah, I met

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the love of my life about three years ago. And

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one of the things that attracted us to each other

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was our post -retirement plans were very similar.

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And we were talking about divesting ourselves

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of all of our. burdensome possessions and traveling

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full time. And so that's what we do. We both,

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we sold our houses and most of our possessions.

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And with a few exceptions, a very, very few exceptions,

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if it doesn't fit in our Sprinter van, we don't

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own it. And so we travel full time in a Sprinter

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van of all things. And we're taking a break from

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that, if you will. come this month and we're

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going to get on a cruise ship and we're going

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to cruise around the world for six months so

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we'll be from so we're everybody asks about how

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big our stateroom is we say it's bigger than

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our van so um we'll be uh yeah which uh that's

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what we'll be doing which company you're sailing

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with uh oceana okay Yeah, my sister worked on

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the QE2 back when that was the kind of flagship

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of Cunard, and they used to do the round. I think

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it was a three -month trip with them, but, I

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mean, just their destinations are amazing. Yeah,

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we took the longest one we could find, actually.

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You could do, you know, several different. But

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we looked for two things, length of cruise and

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number of ports of call, right? Because a lot

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you can spend, and you do no matter what you're

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doing. You know, you've got to cross the Pacific

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Ocean, so you're going to spend a lot of time

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on the water. which can get a little dull. So

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we're better than 50 % at ports of call. So that's

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pretty good as these things go. Amazing. I absolutely

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love cruises. It's funny because when we were

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younger, cruises were seen as air quotes for

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old people. but then you get on well i'm not

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far behind but but then you get on you realize

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that well what's so amazing about them if you're

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a parent there's all these things that your kids

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can do and they can actually be you know watched

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for several hours so you can actually have some

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time but the simple things that are An irritant,

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don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware this is first

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world problems, but doing your laundry, doing

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cooking, what am I going to eat today? All these

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things, cleaning, everything is done. Then if

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you choose not to get Wi -Fi, you're disconnected

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from the world. I find it incredibly healing

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when we go on a cruise from Florida here. We've

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never been, either one of us, on a traditional

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cruise ship. This is very much a both feet in.

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uh the first time around and um but you know

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we did the same thing with the traveling right

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just get rid of everything and off we went so

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um she's a trooper she puts up with all that

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what are some of the destinations you're most

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excited about oh boy i don't you know um Well,

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for me, it's not even so much a destination.

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I'm a seafaring fan, if you will. I like to read

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historical books about the age of sail and all

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that. So the whole idea of sailing around Cape

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Horn just fascinates the crap out of me. I just

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find that, you know, it's certainly not going

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to be the experience that they had in the age

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of sail, but it'll be very similar. I mean, that

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to me is worth doing in and of itself. Australia,

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I've always wanted to see. The whole Southeast

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Asia, I never thought I'd get there. And then

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places like we're going to make some stops up

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in Iceland in that area. So that I'm really looking

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forward to that, too, because that's always been

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a bucket list destination for me. And really

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part of the attraction of all this is there's

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a lot of places that you would probably, you

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know, because you're doing the whole thing in

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a sense, not literally, but close to it. A lot

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of places that you would put down, you know,

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a third or fourth tier. that you're going to

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make you know so i find that that's part of the

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appeal is that you know you get to dip your toe

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in these places and see if you really want to

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go back and explore them uh without a full commitment

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you know to that one little part of the world

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so absolutely and and the whole idea of being

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taken care of i mean living on the road is not

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exactly it's not burdensome but you know you

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never have the same bathroom the same shower

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the same you know so you know and the whole Like

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you said, cooking and cleaning and all that is

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a little more of a chore than it is when you're

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living in a house someplace. So having that full

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service, you know, being taken care of for six

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months, we're looking forward to that. Yeah.

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No, I am extremely envious. When we do sail,

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I normally get the balcony room, and it's not

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anything other than whatever's going on, because

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obviously some of these ships, they've got a

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lot going on on the upper decks. Yeah. You can

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just sit there with a cup of coffee and a book

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and the ocean is just going right past your bedroom.

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And it's so healing to me. And so I can imagine,

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you know, like you said, the ocean days for me

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wouldn't be a negative at all either. I wouldn't

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find it either. I've never spent this much time

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on the open water, but I've sailed a bit and

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I love being on the water. When you were downsizing

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to the camper. I went around the world when I

00:11:06.450 --> 00:11:08.529
was young and literally had a backpack and a

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guitar, like truly, and spent a year traveling.

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Actually, more than that, because I was starting

00:11:14.190 --> 00:11:16.009
to travel, then I got hired as a stuntman in

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Japan and ended up staying there for 15 months.

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But it made you realize how little you actually

00:11:21.830 --> 00:11:24.490
need, like, you know, obviously more underwear

00:11:24.490 --> 00:11:26.370
than anything else. But apart from that, a couple

00:11:26.370 --> 00:11:27.789
of pairs of jeans, a couple of pairs of shorts,

00:11:27.850 --> 00:11:31.629
a hoodie, and you're pretty much golden. What

00:11:31.629 --> 00:11:33.929
were the essentials that you distilled down to?

00:11:34.029 --> 00:11:35.789
And then were there any luxuries that you just

00:11:35.789 --> 00:11:40.309
couldn't get rid of? Yeah, so there's a back

00:11:40.309 --> 00:11:42.990
story to this a little bit. So the first real

00:11:42.990 --> 00:11:47.289
vacation we took together was to hike the Appalachian

00:11:47.289 --> 00:11:50.610
Trail. So that's really getting by. It's not

00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:52.429
quite a backpack and a guitar, but it's pretty

00:11:52.429 --> 00:11:56.129
darn close to it. Absolutely. So we hiked. We

00:11:56.129 --> 00:11:59.200
did most of it. Lisa broke her ankle about 1

00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:03.480
,800 miles in, so we had to stop. So the van

00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:06.139
actually was a step up in terms of what we could,

00:12:06.139 --> 00:12:12.460
you know, take with us. But, yeah, so it's actually

00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:15.179
a part of the appeal to me. The whole lifestyle

00:12:15.179 --> 00:12:18.440
is the minimalism part of it, right, getting

00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.620
rid of all that baggage, all that stuff that

00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:23.419
you just accumulate over your lifetime that really

00:12:23.419 --> 00:12:27.620
doesn't give you joy anymore, you know. So, you

00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:29.080
know, what I found, things that I personally

00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.539
found, I've never been a clothes horse at all,

00:12:31.700 --> 00:12:34.419
but it's amazing how much clothing you've accumulated

00:12:34.419 --> 00:12:38.340
because you simply have room to put it in. Things

00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:40.600
that were hard to get rid of, like tools, you

00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:43.200
know, I've always had a house that I remodeled

00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.500
or rehabbed. I was a carpenter on the side. I

00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:49.679
always had a, you know. So that, you know, and

00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:51.740
it wasn't so much hard. It's just I was nervous

00:12:51.740 --> 00:12:54.000
about being without that stuff because I was

00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:55.820
kind of used to always having whatever I needed

00:12:55.820 --> 00:13:00.220
in the basement or that sort of thing. So that

00:13:00.220 --> 00:13:02.519
was a little bit, you know, tough to let go.

00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.139
Anything else, I tell you, really, really wasn't.

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The exception would be, and this is kind of easy

00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:10.559
because they're small, but I collect watches.

00:13:10.779 --> 00:13:12.659
I collect and trade, buy and sell, whatever.

00:13:12.980 --> 00:13:17.240
So I have a... box full of watches uh but you

00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:20.299
know that's relatively small so um that was easy

00:13:20.299 --> 00:13:23.440
to not have to let go of i downsized that as

00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.539
well actually but not so much so the watches

00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:29.259
come with but that's about it have you ever heard

00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:34.539
of william wood watches uh no that is a the uh

00:13:34.539 --> 00:13:36.500
i think he's the son of a firefighter it's been

00:13:36.500 --> 00:13:38.539
a few years since i interviewed him but he's

00:13:38.539 --> 00:13:43.480
an english watchmaker um and he repurposes fire

00:13:43.480 --> 00:13:46.399
hose and some other things and turns them into

00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.919
watches so some of them have got like the brake

00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.340
glass and emergency i mean they're they're beautiful

00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:53.879
beautiful watches so it's interesting i highly

00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:55.399
highly recommend looking that out i think you'd

00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:59.879
be blown away well i need to ask you assuming

00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:01.820
that you have to park in all these different

00:14:01.820 --> 00:14:04.960
rv parks or camping sites what are some of the

00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.679
the funniest stories of some of the places you

00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:12.590
found yourself in the van man you're asking the

00:14:12.590 --> 00:14:19.490
wrong guy i'm not a funny story guy um why trying

00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:21.649
to think i mean you know we tend to gravitate

00:14:21.649 --> 00:14:24.950
i mean we're still in a lot of ways we're still

00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:27.230
learning how to do this right you just you know

00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.129
we've been doing it a couple years now but um

00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:32.429
we tend to go from state park to state park and

00:14:32.429 --> 00:14:35.409
those are pretty safe places in the sense that

00:14:36.180 --> 00:14:38.580
They're not really all that adventurous in a

00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:40.039
sense. I mean, you know what you're getting,

00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:45.039
you know, pretty much. You know, I think one

00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.799
of the things that we should have known about

00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.179
that we get a chuckle out of because it bothers

00:14:50.179 --> 00:14:52.940
us, I guess, more than it should. But we, you

00:14:52.940 --> 00:14:54.639
know, we try to laugh it all off. It's the whole

00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.759
animal, pet, dogs everywhere, you know, people

00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:01.480
that travel with their animals. Just, you know,

00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.480
now. We're in a much smaller box than most other

00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.480
people. Most other people are traveling in bigger

00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.539
rigs than us. But even with that, I just could

00:15:09.539 --> 00:15:13.940
not imagine having a dog, let alone a cat, let

00:15:13.940 --> 00:15:17.100
alone two dogs or three dogs or two or three

00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:19.039
cats or whatever. And the amount of pets that

00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:24.320
people travel with and then what they go through,

00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:26.779
right, to have these animals with them the whole

00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:30.320
time with having to set up the fences. all of

00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.740
that sort of stuff um never ceases to amaze us

00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:35.980
uh that you know that people will go because

00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:38.879
for us part of it a big part of it is simplifying

00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.779
your life right uncomplicating your life and

00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:43.960
i can't taking a pet along doesn't seem to fit

00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.700
in with for me now i get it you know i've had

00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:49.100
animals i had dogs most of my life and and so

00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:51.480
i get the you know the attachment and all that

00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.100
but i just couldn't imagine traveling with one

00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:58.539
not not like this you know and um So that, yeah,

00:15:58.580 --> 00:16:00.840
we get a chuckle out of that a whole lot, that

00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:02.820
sort of thing. And try to laugh it off because

00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:04.559
it can be frustrating sometimes. I mean, people

00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:06.480
think that you love their dog as much as they

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.580
do, you know. And I'm not so much. I've kind

00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:14.000
of had my fill of, you know, dirty, furry, shedding,

00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:18.240
all that kind of stuff. What amazes me is just

00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.700
the amount of money in a lot of these RVs. And

00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:22.799
it'd be one thing, you know, whether you are

00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.840
a touring rock band or a movie star on a set

00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.730
for, you know, or actor, should I say, for three

00:16:28.730 --> 00:16:31.370
or four months, or like yourselves, you've cashed

00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:33.409
everything out and you're traveling, I totally

00:16:33.409 --> 00:16:35.529
understand that. That's now your full investment.

00:16:35.929 --> 00:16:38.990
But the number of RVs is they just built a storage

00:16:38.990 --> 00:16:41.710
unit down the road from me, and it's just full

00:16:41.710 --> 00:16:44.429
of boats and RVs. So obviously these are people

00:16:44.429 --> 00:16:47.269
that are living in houses. And it blows me away

00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:50.190
the amount of money that's spent. And to me,

00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:51.570
I just kind of think a little differently. If

00:16:51.570 --> 00:16:53.269
you're not selling everything and traveling,

00:16:53.330 --> 00:16:56.009
solely living in that. why would you want to

00:16:56.009 --> 00:16:57.669
yeah just why don't you just stay in a fancy

00:16:57.669 --> 00:16:59.769
hotel whenever you want to travel why don't you

00:16:59.769 --> 00:17:02.169
rent a boat when you want to go fishing yeah

00:17:02.169 --> 00:17:04.190
and the amount of stuff that they bring with

00:17:04.190 --> 00:17:07.950
them when you see people you know unloading all

00:17:07.950 --> 00:17:10.309
this stuff i mean they have fans outside and

00:17:10.309 --> 00:17:12.609
they have big giant barbecue grills i mean full

00:17:12.609 --> 00:17:15.890
size the whole nine yards you know and you know

00:17:15.890 --> 00:17:19.230
do your thing right and but yeah it just amazes

00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:21.150
me it's like what it's almost like what's the

00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:24.329
point if you're gonna you know, work that hard.

00:17:24.450 --> 00:17:26.109
I don't know how much recreating you're doing,

00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:29.329
but yeah. Yeah. It is pretty fascinating watching

00:17:29.329 --> 00:17:31.410
that because you're right. There's, it's, there's

00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:34.910
a different way to do this for everybody. You

00:17:34.910 --> 00:17:37.710
know, uh, some people ask, you know, they ask,

00:17:37.769 --> 00:17:39.029
you know, how do you like the rig? Would you

00:17:39.029 --> 00:17:41.210
do that size again or whatever? And I'm always

00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:43.549
a little reticent because it's like, I, you know,

00:17:43.549 --> 00:17:46.849
it's so personal. What works for us might be

00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:49.700
an utter disaster for somebody else. Absolutely.

00:17:50.259 --> 00:17:53.180
I think to me, it's just I think the most laughable

00:17:53.180 --> 00:17:54.700
thing, for example, when the gas prices were

00:17:54.700 --> 00:17:57.099
higher, everyone was complaining. But no one

00:17:57.099 --> 00:18:00.000
was saying, well, why do I have a 12 seater SUV

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.200
for my one kid and a dog? So, you know, when

00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:05.619
we're looking at health care in this country

00:18:05.619 --> 00:18:07.599
and national health, like, oh, you know, trying

00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:09.680
to try to make us broke is like, well, you've

00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.220
got a fucking RV on your front driveway. You're

00:18:12.220 --> 00:18:13.920
telling me that you can't afford to contribute

00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:16.779
to a national health care system. So that that's

00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:19.799
where I struggle a little bit. yeah oh yeah we

00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.180
we like our toys absolutely and it's you know

00:18:23.180 --> 00:18:24.980
and if you're if you're getting full use out

00:18:24.980 --> 00:18:28.140
of it you know god bless you that's all wonderful

00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:30.559
but yeah there's a lot of just accumulation of

00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.400
stuff absolutely all right well let's go origin

00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.079
story then so tell me where you were born and

00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:38.680
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic

00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:42.200
what your parents did how many siblings okay

00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:48.599
uh i was born and raised in chicago and uh My

00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.900
father was a Chicago firefighter, and I'm one

00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:58.000
of nine children, actually ten. There were nine

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.640
in the original brood, and my parents divorced,

00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:05.240
my dad remarried, and at the age of 60 had a

00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:09.000
son. But that's sort of like a different story

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:14.900
almost. Anyway, yeah, so very large family, even

00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:18.680
for the time, nine kids. Born and raised in Chicago,

00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:23.440
went to Chicago schools. And, you know, we were

00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.200
not raised to be firefighters. You know, my dad

00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.559
had no desire for us to follow in his footsteps.

00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.180
We didn't spend time at the firehouse. We didn't.

00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.099
That is not how we grew up. You know, we were

00:19:36.099 --> 00:19:37.920
supposed to go to college and make something

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.960
of ourselves. And, you know, that he was part

00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.579
of that kind of generation that always wanted

00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:48.250
the kids to be better. And somehow better was

00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:50.509
always something more than what they had, I guess.

00:19:51.769 --> 00:19:55.769
But it didn't work out that way because I was

00:19:55.769 --> 00:20:00.109
a really bad student. But anyway, I when the

00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:02.130
opportunity came and here's the flip side of

00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:04.569
that whole thing is that, you know, when the

00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:08.690
hiring in Chicago is such that it's a crapshoot,

00:20:08.769 --> 00:20:11.869
it really is. And it has been forever. This is

00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:15.470
not a recent thing. They give entrance exams

00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:20.430
maybe once every seven to 10 years. Yeah. And

00:20:20.430 --> 00:20:23.349
the same for promotional exams and stuff like

00:20:23.349 --> 00:20:25.630
that. So you might not have any interest in if

00:20:25.630 --> 00:20:28.529
you had the slightest interest at all in this

00:20:28.529 --> 00:20:30.609
job. When the entrance exam comes around, you

00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:33.569
take it because you might not. You know, maybe

00:20:33.569 --> 00:20:35.289
you're not ready for the job right now or whatever.

00:20:35.410 --> 00:20:37.250
But if you're eligible to take the exam, you

00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:39.210
do, because it could be a decade before they

00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.420
come knock on your door. And that was pretty

00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:46.579
much the situation with me. And, you know, my

00:20:46.579 --> 00:20:49.359
dad said, you know, better sign up because you

00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.339
don't know. You're not amounting to much as it

00:20:51.339 --> 00:20:54.259
is. So, you know, this might be good for you.

00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:58.799
So it turns out so that that worked out for me.

00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:00.900
And I have a younger brother that also came on

00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:02.819
the Chicago Fire Department. And I have a younger

00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:05.119
brother who went on a suburban fire department

00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.500
simply because that's how the timing worked for

00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:13.559
him. That's where he was. And then a nephew that's

00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:15.720
a firefighter as well, so another generation.

00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:19.019
So yeah, it wasn't designed to be the family

00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:21.140
business, but it turned into the family business.

00:21:23.299 --> 00:21:27.099
Spent the bulk of my career in Chicago, 33 years.

00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:31.400
I was the director of training when I retired.

00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:36.159
That was my last assignment, last position. Just

00:21:36.159 --> 00:21:38.900
because, you know, it was there's a lot of things

00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:42.059
that came into play of why I left. But it was

00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:43.920
like, I'm not going to go any further than this.

00:21:43.980 --> 00:21:46.880
This is where I had maxed out my pension. And

00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:48.940
I just started looking around. What might I want

00:21:48.940 --> 00:21:52.400
to do next? You know, and threw out a couple

00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.539
of resumes just to see what the market was like,

00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.720
if you will. And I got a job offer, which I really

00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.079
didn't expect. I got a job offer. So then I had

00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:04.140
a, you know, OK, I had to get off the pot. What

00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:09.000
do I want to do here? And so, you know, I've

00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.819
been asking some of my friends in the suburbs

00:22:10.819 --> 00:22:13.140
because it was a suburban job, you know, just

00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:15.940
outside of the city. And I said, anybody know

00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:17.759
this guy? I don't even know who this fire chief

00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:19.660
is. Anybody know the department? And I was asking

00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:21.599
one guy, he says, oh, yeah, he's just my best

00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.440
friend. I kind of know him, you know. So, OK,

00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:27.359
there's a connection there now that I might be

00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.819
a little more interested in this, you know. You

00:22:30.819 --> 00:22:33.220
know, and I said I got an offer. I got an interview.

00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:37.869
at of course at first and um and then the next

00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:39.450
thing that happened is someone else said are

00:22:39.450 --> 00:22:41.809
you really interested in this job and i said

00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:43.150
well why he says well because i'm going to be

00:22:43.150 --> 00:22:45.849
on the interview board and if you're just you

00:22:45.849 --> 00:22:48.150
know fishing i should know that because i don't

00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:49.670
want to recommend you if you're just fishing

00:22:49.670 --> 00:22:51.930
i'm not going to you know i said no i'm serious

00:22:51.930 --> 00:22:56.170
about it he said okay um so anyway pieces started

00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:58.910
to fall into place i wound up getting a job offer

00:22:58.910 --> 00:23:03.319
and so um i took it i left chicago um and went

00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:05.339
out to Algonquin Lake and Hills Fire Protection

00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:08.460
District. And I was assistant chief out there

00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:09.940
for a couple of years. And then the guy that

00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:14.180
hired me bailed, which I kind of knew was part

00:23:14.180 --> 00:23:16.240
of the maybe what happened sort of thing. It

00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.859
happened quicker than I thought it would. And

00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:21.680
they offered me the job of fire chief. So for

00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.259
my last two and a half years or whatever out

00:23:24.259 --> 00:23:27.700
there, I was the fire chief. And then in 2019,

00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:33.660
April 1st of 2019, I pulled the pin. And there

00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:35.480
was a very specific reason for that, because

00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:37.940
when I came on the job, that was my first day

00:23:37.940 --> 00:23:41.420
on the job in Chicago was April 1st. All right.

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.380
So somehow that was like, OK, that's going to

00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:45.380
be my retirement date if I could pull it off.

00:23:46.099 --> 00:23:49.920
And I remember I had gotten promoted to engineer

00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:54.559
in Chicago and still young on the job. And you

00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.039
get assigned to this to a relief pool. And part

00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:01.640
of my rotation was out to the airport where at

00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:03.940
the time, especially and even now to some extent,

00:24:04.099 --> 00:24:07.000
it's where guys kind of went out to retire, right?

00:24:07.099 --> 00:24:09.259
Retire in place. They just their last few years

00:24:09.259 --> 00:24:11.160
out there because there's not a lot of fire duty.

00:24:11.819 --> 00:24:13.680
It's a lot busier than it used to be, but it

00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:15.680
used to be an ideal retirement spot. Anyway,

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:19.000
so I rotate out there and I see these guys that

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.900
look like they should have retired 10 years ago.

00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:22.819
And they're just sitting there with nothing to

00:24:22.819 --> 00:24:25.640
do, just waiting to be forced off the job because

00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:27.200
they didn't know what else to do with themselves.

00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.500
And I thought, I'm not going to do that. I'm

00:24:30.500 --> 00:24:32.480
not going to do 40 years on this job. And I had

00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.480
the benefit of coming on very young. I was 20

00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:36.619
years old when I came on. So I could do that,

00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.740
right? I could, you know, have a full career.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.140
But I promised myself not to spend 40 years working

00:24:44.140 --> 00:24:48.039
in the fire service. So in April of 2019, I'm

00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:52.289
bumping up on 40 -year mark, right? and uh and

00:24:52.289 --> 00:24:54.809
that wasn't the whole reason but knowing that

00:24:54.809 --> 00:24:57.109
that was coming you know helped me make that

00:24:57.109 --> 00:25:00.390
decision yeah it's time to go you know you mentioned

00:25:00.390 --> 00:25:02.369
about growing up in a firefighter family going

00:25:02.369 --> 00:25:03.910
all the way back you know i want to definitely

00:25:03.910 --> 00:25:05.970
get to the transition out in a little bit but

00:25:05.970 --> 00:25:08.890
um when you reflect back now with this veteran

00:25:08.890 --> 00:25:11.329
lens that you have and these all these different

00:25:11.329 --> 00:25:13.710
conversations we're having from family time and

00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:15.950
dynamic to mental health to you know all the

00:25:15.950 --> 00:25:19.670
things What were the pros of growing up with

00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:21.809
a father as a firefighter and what were the cons,

00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:25.970
if any, when you remember? The pros were he wasn't

00:25:25.970 --> 00:25:31.089
always home. So there was, you know, the mice

00:25:31.089 --> 00:25:32.970
are going to play right the cats away kind of

00:25:32.970 --> 00:25:35.490
thing. But then, of course, he always did come

00:25:35.490 --> 00:25:37.269
home. When your father gets home, you know, there

00:25:37.269 --> 00:25:41.539
was all that. And now I'll tell you that in hindsight,

00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:43.500
I don't think I appreciate it at the time. But

00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:45.480
in hindsight, that was both good and bad, because

00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:47.680
as you might expect, both my parents worked.

00:25:48.579 --> 00:25:52.680
My mom was a nurse. And so who was working and

00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.220
who was home? You know, my dad worked at 2448

00:25:55.220 --> 00:25:59.539
shift. So my mom would work when he was off work.

00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.660
So, you know, we grew up with my dad at home

00:26:01.660 --> 00:26:03.900
sometimes. And the exception would be if he could

00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:06.160
find side job that paid better than nursing.

00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.240
Then he would work. And then as we got older,

00:26:10.339 --> 00:26:12.119
which took a while because they kept having new

00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.460
babies, you know, eventually we could manage

00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:17.819
to not kill ourselves, you know, while they were

00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:21.319
both at work. But so I had my, you know, both

00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:24.579
my parents at home way before it was a popular

00:26:24.579 --> 00:26:28.220
thing or common or whatever, you know. So I grew

00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:30.319
up with my dad at home, at least part of the

00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.960
time. Right. More so than, you know, was was

00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.089
common or typical, I suppose. And that was both

00:26:37.089 --> 00:26:39.009
good and bad, you know, and I don't I don't it

00:26:39.009 --> 00:26:41.190
was just it was our life. It was just normal.

00:26:41.289 --> 00:26:43.890
So I didn't think anything of it until I got

00:26:43.890 --> 00:26:46.089
old enough to be comparing myself to other kids

00:26:46.089 --> 00:26:47.849
and other families. And you go, well, this was

00:26:47.849 --> 00:26:51.329
kind of cool that dad was around a little more

00:26:51.329 --> 00:26:54.529
often than most kids saw at the time. Anyway,

00:26:54.670 --> 00:26:57.049
especially the most firefighter friend, you know,

00:26:57.069 --> 00:26:59.750
those families, because their dads were working

00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:03.579
two jobs. that was almost well it still is in

00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:06.599
chicago it's like you can't afford to live there

00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:10.359
if you don't work two jobs basically and in chicago

00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:12.640
still to this day you have to live in the corporate

00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.940
city limits um so you can't move to a cheaper

00:27:15.940 --> 00:27:19.920
place um you know and commute in so uh you know

00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.940
the extra the the two jobs was a requirement

00:27:22.940 --> 00:27:26.559
i mean it's just how you got by uh so i think

00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:31.640
that was um that You know, part of it was different.

00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:34.720
And then the whole dad's gone during the holidays

00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.900
and things like that. My parents may manage that

00:27:38.900 --> 00:27:41.339
to turn that into a aren't you lucky because

00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:43.359
we're going to have Christmas early kind of thing.

00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:48.140
You know, we never saw that as some sort of terrible

00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:50.660
detriment kind of thing. And and then the other

00:27:50.660 --> 00:27:56.809
thing that you learn is like. Christmas morning,

00:27:56.950 --> 00:27:58.809
you know, somebody that didn't have kids or whose

00:27:58.809 --> 00:28:01.250
kids were a little older would stay in. So, you

00:28:01.250 --> 00:28:03.490
know, my dad could stay home at least for a couple

00:28:03.490 --> 00:28:05.609
hours with his kids and he'd go into work a couple

00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:08.769
hours late and stuff. So I didn't see those things.

00:28:08.890 --> 00:28:11.390
My personal experience was they weren't big kind

00:28:11.390 --> 00:28:15.769
of traumas or anything like that. So I don't

00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:18.069
know that that was I don't know if that answers

00:28:18.069 --> 00:28:23.079
your question, but I didn't you know, we. here's

00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:25.240
the other thing we we had moved by the time i

00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:30.200
was in eighth grade we had moved up to the northwest

00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.559
side of the city and we were in an area where

00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.220
they call it the city worker ghetto you know

00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:38.339
it's it's no ghetto by any stretch but it's it's

00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:40.440
the far northwest corner of the city and it's

00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.279
one of the places where many of the city workers

00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:44.660
gravitate because the neighborhoods are just

00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:47.200
nice and what they can afford so you're surrounded

00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:49.680
by other cops and firemen and sanitation workers

00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.700
and all that so you're going to grade school

00:28:51.700 --> 00:28:54.519
you know with all these other kids whose dads

00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:57.200
are cops and firefighters and stuff so um it

00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:00.619
was in that sense it was a big part of us growing

00:29:00.619 --> 00:29:06.740
up. The people we knew were city workers. But

00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:11.359
like I said, there was never this following in

00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.400
my footsteps sort of thing. He wanted me to be

00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:20.319
a dentist or something like that. Because obviously

00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:22.819
you were in Chicago for a long time as well.

00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:26.960
What does the core volume compare today versus

00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:32.279
when your dad was working? it's a lot higher

00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.480
but it's also different so uh they certainly

00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:39.099
did more fire duty there's just you know my dad

00:29:39.099 --> 00:29:42.000
was that was the the heyday right the 60s and

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.559
70s that was his career in and then into the

00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.400
a's of course but the peaks you know of his career

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.339
were and that was the white flight out of the

00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:52.859
cities and the riots and the vietnam war protests

00:29:52.859 --> 00:29:57.779
and all that kind of stuff um So that the fire,

00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:02.619
it was not at all an exaggeration because I looked

00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:05.819
at the journals, at the books, you know, they

00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:09.000
would do three or four fires in a 24 hour period,

00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:11.960
day in and day out, every shift, every day of

00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.059
the week. And not just in the big, busy, busy

00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:17.559
ghetto areas of the city. I mean, that's what

00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:20.480
cities were like in the 60s and 70s. People didn't

00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:24.910
live there really unless they had to. It was

00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:29.630
tough. And then, but they didn't have EMS. They

00:30:29.630 --> 00:30:32.490
didn't have hazmat. They didn't have CO detectors.

00:30:33.109 --> 00:30:36.769
You know, they did have EMS in a sense, but the

00:30:36.769 --> 00:30:39.390
call volume wasn't anything like it was today.

00:30:39.509 --> 00:30:42.690
So they were certainly busy. And they did a lot

00:30:42.690 --> 00:30:44.910
of nonsense runs still, because if you remember,

00:30:45.049 --> 00:30:49.210
many people may remember. or i might be older

00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:52.609
than i think the street boxes right uh the fire

00:30:52.609 --> 00:30:54.369
alarm boxes on the streets and people you know

00:30:54.369 --> 00:30:56.490
that was the false alarms of their day we have

00:30:56.490 --> 00:30:58.329
the automatic fire alarms that get triggered

00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:01.650
by whatever but in their day it was those boxes

00:31:01.650 --> 00:31:04.490
those mechanical boxes that would either get

00:31:04.490 --> 00:31:07.569
bumped or hit or deliberately pulled you know

00:31:07.569 --> 00:31:10.670
so they were chasing those around all the time

00:31:10.670 --> 00:31:14.289
that was their nuisance call um of the that era

00:31:14.289 --> 00:31:18.680
but they they were Very, very busy. Where they

00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.559
were busy, they were very, very busy. But it

00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:24.680
was a different kind of busy, I think. Yeah.

00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:26.259
Well, it's interesting because you're talking

00:31:26.259 --> 00:31:28.440
about the 24 -48. And I actually just Googled

00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.599
Chicago right before we sat down, and it's still

00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.640
24 -48, if I'm not mistaken. But like you said,

00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:35.660
the absorption of EMS and all these other ones,

00:31:35.700 --> 00:31:38.640
definitely not as physically taxing as far as

00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:42.480
strenuous activity like fight and fire, but that

00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:47.119
continuous unending call volume. If he was working

00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.779
in the 60s, 60 years later, the schedule hasn't

00:31:50.779 --> 00:31:53.259
changed at all. I think it's just important to

00:31:53.259 --> 00:31:55.759
highlight that before we move on. Yeah, there's

00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.859
more. They call them daily days in Chicago. I

00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:02.940
think most places call them Kelly days. And that

00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:07.140
pops up more frequently than it used to. So you'll

00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:09.279
have one every fifth instead of every sixth or

00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:12.259
seventh or tenth or whatever. So there's a little

00:32:12.259 --> 00:32:16.240
more scheduled time off, but not, to your point

00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:20.779
and your mission, it's still a 24 -48, so you

00:32:20.779 --> 00:32:24.500
still have that non -recovery time. And then

00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:31.640
it's actually worse. So Chicago still has a EMS

00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:34.059
system where they have what they call single

00:32:34.059 --> 00:32:36.240
-role medics. So they have paramedics that are

00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:37.980
not firefighters at all. They're on the fire

00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:40.930
department. Pace scale is the same, the pension,

00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:43.150
all that, but they are not sworn firefighters.

00:32:43.450 --> 00:32:45.549
They're paramedics. So they don't do any fire

00:32:45.549 --> 00:32:49.690
duty. And they work a one -on -three. They look

00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:53.490
one -on -three off. But they are so chronically

00:32:53.490 --> 00:32:55.470
short of paramedics all the time that effectively

00:32:55.470 --> 00:32:59.549
they're almost working a one -on -one off. So

00:32:59.549 --> 00:33:04.900
it's not working in that sense. For many of them,

00:33:04.900 --> 00:33:07.299
because the call volume is so high and they can't

00:33:07.299 --> 00:33:09.839
keep paramedics. They just can't hire enough.

00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:14.440
Well, while we're kind of on that topic, and

00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.559
I'm wondering if this is part of the reason you

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:18.539
mentioned about transitioning out for multiple

00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:22.359
reasons. I've had people on the fire side, excuse

00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.299
me, on the law enforcement side in Chicago talking

00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:26.960
about kind of organizational betrayal. And that's

00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.160
why they hung up their badge and their gun belt.

00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:33.170
Aside from the work week itself, what are other

00:33:33.170 --> 00:33:36.329
factors, if any, that are contributing to struggling

00:33:36.329 --> 00:33:38.509
to recruit in the Chicago area specifically?

00:33:41.369 --> 00:33:49.650
Well, I think part of I think we have to change

00:33:49.650 --> 00:33:54.069
how we sell the job. It was sold to me and even

00:33:54.069 --> 00:33:58.380
the guys that immediately came behind me. brother

00:33:58.380 --> 00:34:00.440
and stuff like that. It was really about the

00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:04.359
pension, right? And the job security. And those

00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.059
were important things. I think they still are,

00:34:07.180 --> 00:34:09.219
but they were very important things in the 60s,

00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:12.019
70s, 80s, right? Because you could see that was

00:34:12.019 --> 00:34:15.059
going away in private industry, but the fact

00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:17.039
that you still had a pension, you still had healthcare,

00:34:17.300 --> 00:34:20.599
and then you basically had a job for life as

00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:24.119
long as you didn't commit any felonies. And you

00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:25.800
needed to, you know, and that was important,

00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:27.699
and that's kind of how you sold the job. You

00:34:27.699 --> 00:34:30.280
tell, my experience at the end of my career when

00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:33.920
I was in Algonquin, you tell, or try to tell

00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:36.420
potential recruits that, and they look at you

00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:39.219
like, so what? You know, they cannot imagine

00:34:39.219 --> 00:34:43.739
working at one location for one employer for

00:34:43.739 --> 00:34:46.860
30 years, or even for 20 years. It's just like,

00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:49.960
why on earth would I do that? And you do it because

00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.780
you get a pension. But that means nothing. You

00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:58.260
know, so, you know, it's, you know, that that's

00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:00.880
got how we sell the job with the benefit of the

00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.139
job is has to, you know, for us, it really was

00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:07.880
security. For my dad's generation, I think, and

00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.699
for mine, it was the job security that, you know,

00:35:10.699 --> 00:35:13.360
you would put up with a whole lot because of

00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:16.679
that, because it offered you that security. And

00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:19.019
the promise of the punch was a big deal. And

00:35:19.019 --> 00:35:21.519
it is a big deal. I mean, I. i'm making more

00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.500
in retirement than most people make going to

00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:26.440
work every day you know now i paid for that and

00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:30.159
it took me 40 years but it's there you know a

00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.000
lot of people work very hard and don't have squat

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.599
um but it's hard to sell that today you know

00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.539
i don't think i i could see it when when they

00:35:38.539 --> 00:35:40.239
sold it to me because i guess because that's

00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:42.079
part of growing up with it right you know i just

00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:44.690
lived that that part of it day in and day out.

00:35:44.710 --> 00:35:46.789
And with a family of nine kids, that whole idea

00:35:46.789 --> 00:35:49.650
of you always have a job meant something, right?

00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:51.269
You didn't have to worry about seasonal work.

00:35:51.329 --> 00:35:53.110
You didn't have to worry about, you know, the

00:35:53.110 --> 00:35:55.050
construction jobs would go away in the winter

00:35:55.050 --> 00:35:58.650
and things like that. It's interesting because

00:35:58.650 --> 00:36:01.210
I just had a conversation with Doug Orchard,

00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:04.449
who's a documentary maker, and he's working on

00:36:04.449 --> 00:36:08.190
a film at the moment on how private equity firms

00:36:08.190 --> 00:36:12.139
are dipping into... state and, you know, county

00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:16.679
pensions. And so I think one of the challenges

00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:19.679
of this young generation is, you know, back in,

00:36:19.699 --> 00:36:21.380
you know, when you were working, I'm assuming

00:36:21.380 --> 00:36:23.980
that was when healthcare also actually paid for

00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:25.360
the doctor and all these things. You might have

00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.679
had a $10 copay. My generation was the higher

00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:31.239
deductibles. So basically the only way you'll

00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:32.960
ever use your insurance is if you get hit by

00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.480
a bus or are chronically ill. Otherwise, you

00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:36.960
know, you're just basically paying out of pocket

00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.789
and paying these premiums as well. And then now

00:36:39.789 --> 00:36:41.949
with the pensions, like when I was in Florida,

00:36:42.190 --> 00:36:45.730
the governor there, Rick Scott, actually cut

00:36:45.730 --> 00:36:48.989
our pension. So you're slicing and dicing all

00:36:48.989 --> 00:36:51.130
these things that were that stability and that

00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:53.829
promise. And I think that the younger generation,

00:36:53.969 --> 00:36:56.889
they're not being told that or sold that because

00:36:56.889 --> 00:36:59.329
we don't believe that's actually still going

00:36:59.329 --> 00:37:01.489
to be there at that point. You know what I mean?

00:37:01.510 --> 00:37:02.889
Because the pensions are in danger. When you

00:37:02.889 --> 00:37:05.010
hear about what's happening to these pensions.

00:37:05.630 --> 00:37:08.409
there are organizations where you know their

00:37:08.409 --> 00:37:10.949
retirees 10 years later might be getting 10 cents

00:37:10.949 --> 00:37:13.590
to the dollar on their pension so i think we

00:37:13.590 --> 00:37:15.750
need to reframe it because i mean ultimately

00:37:15.750 --> 00:37:18.110
the reason to go into the job is is service i

00:37:18.110 --> 00:37:20.369
mean it really is and taking care of our people

00:37:20.369 --> 00:37:22.949
but if the things that used to be the carrot

00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:25.690
on the stick have basically been you know absolutely

00:37:25.690 --> 00:37:29.710
decimated then it isn't allure anymore no it's

00:37:29.710 --> 00:37:32.269
it's not And I think even if they weren't being

00:37:32.269 --> 00:37:34.550
decimated, it wouldn't be the Lord because there's

00:37:34.550 --> 00:37:37.170
just a different expectation about what work

00:37:37.170 --> 00:37:41.170
should be, which is not bad. I mean, it's a good

00:37:41.170 --> 00:37:43.570
thing, right? You want to get more out of your

00:37:43.570 --> 00:37:47.710
job than just a paycheck. And that makes perfect

00:37:47.710 --> 00:37:50.269
sense. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to use a

00:37:50.269 --> 00:37:54.690
parallel. When I started talking to some of the

00:37:54.690 --> 00:37:58.019
MMA fighters and coaches, there was a push because

00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:00.400
of head trauma and CTE and all these things.

00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:04.659
There was a push to do a lot more light sparring,

00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.039
drills, bag work, all that kind of thing and

00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.519
limit the sparring for occasionally and then

00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:11.719
in the cage. And then if you look at the strength

00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.599
conditioning world, you know, with the CrossFit

00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:16.119
and all these other ones, it was only, you know,

00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:18.460
four times a week for an hour would get you extremely

00:38:18.460 --> 00:38:22.320
fit. And so that less is more has become, you

00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:23.820
know, a reality. And then you look at the corporate

00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:27.440
business world. They've moved to a four, eight

00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.119
hour day. And it's not that these employees are

00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:32.460
weaker. It's just that actually realize it actually

00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:35.019
forges performance. They're more innovative.

00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:37.639
They're happier. They're healthier. And so the

00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:41.119
downstream costs are less. Go back to our profession

00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:45.820
in 2025. We're struggling to recruit anyone.

00:38:46.099 --> 00:38:48.079
And so our men and women are being forced to

00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:51.219
work sometimes 80 plus hours a week. And we're

00:38:51.219 --> 00:38:52.900
wondering why no one wants to do this anymore.

00:38:54.759 --> 00:38:58.519
Yeah, yeah. I think you're spot on with that.

00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:04.539
I think, I guess, you know, again, in my generation,

00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:07.579
you couldn't work enough overtime, you know,

00:39:07.579 --> 00:39:10.219
and it just, part of it was it didn't come up

00:39:10.219 --> 00:39:12.300
as often, right? But you would never, you know,

00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:14.579
nobody would ever turn down overtime. I mean,

00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:17.960
you just, you just wouldn't, you know, and now

00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:21.019
it's kind of, it's hard to find guys to work

00:39:21.019 --> 00:39:23.610
the overtime. and and to your point there it's

00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:25.250
because they're overworked to begin with you

00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:27.989
know they're they're working um i think we under

00:39:27.989 --> 00:39:30.269
appreciate how hard they're working sometimes

00:39:30.269 --> 00:39:32.570
even in this you know like i finished my career

00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:35.650
in this suburb where it was kind of funny because

00:39:35.650 --> 00:39:39.869
you know they coming from where i did and we

00:39:39.869 --> 00:39:44.610
didn't always know how to um talk to one another

00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:46.769
if you will because that like they had learned

00:39:46.769 --> 00:39:50.980
like if they looked at me and said either directly

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:54.039
or through a another officer well you don't understand

00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:57.079
chief we were really busy that day you know why

00:39:57.079 --> 00:39:59.099
something didn't get done and i was like really

00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:03.099
you have any idea what busy means you know but

00:40:03.099 --> 00:40:06.559
you know so they had learned not to say that

00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.460
and i had to learn that um they do do a lot of

00:40:09.460 --> 00:40:11.420
other things than chase you know more so than

00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:14.980
the guys in the city do so to speak so um yeah

00:40:14.980 --> 00:40:17.829
but we had you know we had a we Both had to readjust

00:40:17.829 --> 00:40:20.050
to that sort of what expectations, you know,

00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:24.889
were and what made for a good excuse to the new

00:40:24.889 --> 00:40:28.070
boss, you know. And what really busy wasn't.

00:40:29.269 --> 00:40:33.809
But I think you're right, is that a guy like

00:40:33.809 --> 00:40:39.349
me, you know, intuitively thinks, well, you didn't

00:40:39.349 --> 00:40:42.730
go to any fires today, so you didn't do anything,

00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:45.590
you know. And I'm somebody that should know better.

00:40:45.949 --> 00:40:47.989
Right. And does no better. But still, because

00:40:47.989 --> 00:40:51.130
of when I came on, because of my age and my history,

00:40:51.269 --> 00:40:56.190
you know, that's still my gut reaction. I didn't

00:40:56.190 --> 00:40:58.590
do much today. And and that couldn't be more

00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:01.489
wrong. They're working harder than ever. And

00:41:01.489 --> 00:41:03.610
it's more stressful. Fires aren't really all

00:41:03.610 --> 00:41:06.889
that stressful, especially for the firefighter.

00:41:06.889 --> 00:41:09.150
They're stress relievers. You get to break shit,

00:41:09.250 --> 00:41:13.179
get dirty. Release all that aggression, right?

00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.219
They're not stressful. They can be stressful

00:41:15.219 --> 00:41:17.780
for the officers, and the post -incident can

00:41:17.780 --> 00:41:20.980
be stressful for a firefighter. But it's not

00:41:20.980 --> 00:41:24.940
stressful work, generally speaking. All the other

00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.059
stuff is, right? The EMS stuff, the dealing with

00:41:28.059 --> 00:41:30.659
the public, the trauma, those are stressful.

00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:35.400
And so I think that a guy like me under appreciates

00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:38.079
that, the impact at all of that, even though

00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:41.139
I lived through it. I didn't live through it

00:41:41.139 --> 00:41:44.360
like they're living through it today. Well, it's

00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:46.320
interesting because I talk about dispatchers.

00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.440
I think that's the perfect example because you've

00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:51.739
got a dispatcher on the phone in a dark room

00:41:51.739 --> 00:41:54.119
that probably arrived when the sun was still

00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:57.000
down. went into this room, sat with no windows

00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:59.320
and electric light. Now they're on the phone

00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.420
to a mother who's trying to revive their one

00:42:02.420 --> 00:42:05.019
-year -old who's not breathing. They're trying

00:42:05.019 --> 00:42:07.699
to talk him through the whole CPR algorithm.

00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:10.239
The mother's screaming, where the hell are they?

00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:11.599
Where the hell are they? They finally get there.

00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:14.320
And then they're disconnected because they're

00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.409
there now. so all that stress and they're still

00:42:17.409 --> 00:42:19.809
sitting in a chair in a dark room at least you

00:42:19.809 --> 00:42:21.929
know like if we work you know a code on someone

00:42:21.929 --> 00:42:24.289
on an adult there's still like you said some

00:42:24.289 --> 00:42:26.670
sort of physical offload you know and then we

00:42:26.670 --> 00:42:28.429
can take them to the hospital and talk to the

00:42:28.429 --> 00:42:30.369
doctors and nurses and did we miss anything and

00:42:30.369 --> 00:42:33.110
you know what did you find the dispatcher has

00:42:33.110 --> 00:42:35.130
all that stress and then right phone's ringing

00:42:35.130 --> 00:42:37.969
again pick it up so i think there is a lot that

00:42:37.969 --> 00:42:39.449
you're talking about i always said the same thing

00:42:39.449 --> 00:42:43.070
there's nothing there's no more kind of um flow

00:42:43.070 --> 00:42:45.849
state than loading hose after or cleaning saws

00:42:45.849 --> 00:42:48.190
after an amazing fire and you've got that camaraderie

00:42:48.190 --> 00:42:49.909
and you're tired and you're joking with each

00:42:49.909 --> 00:42:52.789
other but on a ems and even more so in dispatch

00:42:52.789 --> 00:42:56.989
you don't have that same ability to go from extreme

00:42:56.989 --> 00:43:00.510
stress to all right clear the call take the next

00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:05.869
one yeah yeah and i don't see that getting any

00:43:05.869 --> 00:43:12.539
better actually uh anytime soon but yeah Going

00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:15.840
back to your early life then, you ended up obviously

00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:17.719
being in a very physical job. What were you playing

00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:23.179
and doing as far as sport and exercise? Me and

00:43:23.179 --> 00:43:31.219
balls never got along. My youth activity was

00:43:31.219 --> 00:43:34.780
the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. I was in

00:43:34.780 --> 00:43:37.880
a drum and bugle corps. And it was an all -male

00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:39.639
corps. I think it still is. I'm not sure. It

00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:42.960
was an all -male. Came from a Boy Scout troop

00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.380
originally, and it was just one of those things.

00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:48.159
I don't know, friend of a friend kind of thing.

00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:50.280
Somebody got me involved in the whole thing,

00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:53.900
and I, you know, beat on a drum and marched around.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.320
It was a very, very physical activity, actually,

00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:59.280
and it's very competitive. And it was summer

00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.239
-based for the most part, you know, but you would

00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:02.980
have practice all year long. But that was my

00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:06.920
sport, if you will. I did that all through high

00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:10.179
school and beyond. Cause I never got along with

00:44:10.179 --> 00:44:12.599
balls really. It just, I was never, you know,

00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:15.260
I played a little league and they would put me

00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:18.539
in because I'm, I'm left -handed. So I got to

00:44:18.539 --> 00:44:20.920
play because I would stand close. I wasn't afraid

00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:22.960
of getting hit by a pitch and I could stand close

00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.440
to the plate. And as a left -handed kid, you

00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.400
know, it's hard to pitch too. So I, my on -base

00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:31.960
percentage wasn't so bad, but yeah, that was

00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:35.079
about it. So yeah, drum and bugle core was, was

00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:37.440
where I grew up, if you will. That was my sport.

00:44:39.170 --> 00:44:45.909
You mentioned as well. So, yeah, I'm not much

00:44:45.909 --> 00:44:49.869
of a sports guy. You mentioned about your dad

00:44:49.869 --> 00:44:52.269
recommending that you put your name on the list

00:44:52.269 --> 00:44:54.150
for the fire service. When you were in the high

00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:56.710
school, what were you dreaming of becoming then?

00:44:59.829 --> 00:45:03.510
I don't know. I really, you know, I was, I don't

00:45:03.510 --> 00:45:05.690
want to, you know, dramatize. I wasn't a lost

00:45:05.690 --> 00:45:09.030
soul, but really I didn't have any. You know,

00:45:09.030 --> 00:45:10.730
looking back on it, didn't have any particular

00:45:10.730 --> 00:45:13.650
direction, kind of kicking that can down the

00:45:13.650 --> 00:45:16.349
road. I'll figure that out later. I went to a

00:45:16.349 --> 00:45:18.849
technical what was called time of technical high

00:45:18.849 --> 00:45:21.969
school is basically a trade school. So, you know,

00:45:21.989 --> 00:45:24.730
I had shop classes as part of my curriculum and

00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:26.809
a lot of math and a lot of science. So I was

00:45:26.809 --> 00:45:30.130
gravitating in that direction. Engineering, maybe,

00:45:30.230 --> 00:45:33.269
but I wasn't a good enough student for that.

00:45:34.170 --> 00:45:35.829
I think I could have been perhaps, you know,

00:45:35.869 --> 00:45:39.690
all that hindsight kind of thing. But typically

00:45:39.690 --> 00:45:44.849
kids that went to the high school I went to would

00:45:44.849 --> 00:45:49.090
wind up in the trades or, you know, drafting

00:45:49.090 --> 00:45:51.690
was still a thing back then. Print shop, they

00:45:51.690 --> 00:45:54.250
had a big print shop there. So those sorts of

00:45:54.250 --> 00:45:58.909
trade -like careers. And that's probably where

00:45:58.909 --> 00:46:00.829
I would have wound up if it wasn't the fire department.

00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.019
I had a bit of an electrician, I think, to be

00:46:05.019 --> 00:46:07.519
honest with you. Walk me through then the front

00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:10.340
door of the fire service. Firstly, I mean, just

00:46:10.340 --> 00:46:12.320
as far as the training, because I know you work

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:14.699
a lot with UL now as well. You know, what was

00:46:14.699 --> 00:46:17.500
the PPE that you had back then? And then when

00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:20.019
you reflect back now, what were the tactics,

00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:25.039
if different than they use today? So here's a

00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.139
kind of an interesting thing. I came on the job

00:46:27.139 --> 00:46:31.739
in 1980. It was probably 81 or 82, somewhere

00:46:31.739 --> 00:46:33.619
in the first couple years of my job, that Chicago

00:46:33.619 --> 00:46:37.840
had the first mandatory mask order on the Chicago

00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.400
Fire Department. And it, of course, wasn't enforced

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:42.420
right away, but they didn't even have one. They

00:46:42.420 --> 00:46:45.079
didn't even have a, you know, a SOP that said,

00:46:45.099 --> 00:46:52.239
thou shall wear a mask. And so, and in... Chicago

00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.719
switched to full bunker gear from three -quarter

00:46:54.719 --> 00:47:00.619
boots to full bunker gear in, take a guess, 2006

00:47:00.619 --> 00:47:04.719
is when they made the transition. I was already

00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:06.760
in the fire service by that point. That's insane.

00:47:07.340 --> 00:47:11.039
Right. So, yeah, that's when I got my first pair.

00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:13.840
And, you know, it's a curious thing. And I guess

00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:17.239
most firefighters, even today, if you ask them,

00:47:17.260 --> 00:47:19.219
where did the term bunker gear come from? Why

00:47:19.219 --> 00:47:22.579
is it called bunker gear? right so chicago had

00:47:22.579 --> 00:47:24.719
bunker gear you weren't required first off you

00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.059
bought your own gear at the time and you weren't

00:47:29.059 --> 00:47:31.480
required to have bunker gear or wear it but it

00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:33.440
was available to you for purchase if you wanted

00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:36.159
it and what bunker gear was the whole purpose

00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:40.400
of the pants and the boots was that you would

00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:42.559
get out of your bunk in the middle of the night

00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:46.010
and slip into those Right. That's that's when

00:47:46.010 --> 00:47:49.309
and where guys wore that gear was when they were

00:47:49.309 --> 00:47:51.269
working through the night and they would just

00:47:51.269 --> 00:47:53.070
get up and that'd be next to the bed and you'd

00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:55.630
step into your boots and pull up the pants. They

00:47:55.630 --> 00:47:58.250
weren't as protective as they are today. Of course,

00:47:58.269 --> 00:48:00.309
they were just heavy canvas pants and the coats

00:48:00.309 --> 00:48:03.670
were basically just heavy canvas coats. But that's

00:48:03.670 --> 00:48:05.710
that's where the term came from. So, yeah, some

00:48:05.710 --> 00:48:07.949
guys wore bunker gear on occasion when it was

00:48:07.949 --> 00:48:10.429
cold out because that's what it was for, to get

00:48:10.429 --> 00:48:13.639
dressed warmly. Dress quickly and keep warm.

00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:16.760
But they didn't transition to true bunker gear

00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:20.159
until 2006. So that's kind of how far behind

00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:24.079
they were in that respect. And so there was not

00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:30.280
a culture of wearing your SCBA and all that for

00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:35.340
probably the first half of my career. Yeah. And

00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:39.280
that's largely changed. They still have now.

00:48:40.110 --> 00:48:42.989
It could be, you know, it's not like I, you know,

00:48:42.989 --> 00:48:45.429
monitor the current state of the SOPs on the

00:48:45.429 --> 00:48:48.289
Chicago Fire Department, but to the best of my

00:48:48.289 --> 00:48:51.130
knowledge, they still do not require the firefighters

00:48:51.130 --> 00:48:53.829
on the roof to wear SCBA when they're on the

00:48:53.829 --> 00:49:00.590
roof. Yeah, so they got some work to do in that

00:49:00.590 --> 00:49:04.050
respect. So how that translates into tactics,

00:49:04.210 --> 00:49:06.570
right? So I don't, you know, and this is something

00:49:06.570 --> 00:49:09.800
that when I was... working with UL and talking

00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:13.179
to guys about the different things that we were

00:49:13.179 --> 00:49:17.239
advocating, if you will. Right. I think there's

00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:19.780
a lot of this sort of myth about, you know, you

00:49:19.780 --> 00:49:21.699
got to prove yourself. You got to be tough enough.

00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:24.300
You got to, you know, you got to all that sort

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:26.400
of shit. And I would say, look, man, at first

00:49:26.400 --> 00:49:32.039
off, my dad didn't have an SCBA quite literally

00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.340
for almost his entire career. When he was on,

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:38.340
you know, as a street level firefighters, because

00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:41.980
he obviously was on the job through 1990s, actually.

00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:46.760
But, you know, they didn't even have them. You

00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:48.679
know, when I first came on the job, 1980, there

00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:53.219
was not a SCBA on the apparatus for every firefighter,

00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:55.460
necessarily. There might be, there might not

00:49:55.460 --> 00:49:58.059
be. There might be four guys and only three SCBAs.

00:49:58.059 --> 00:50:00.719
You never really know. So that was the state

00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:03.579
of things. So they didn't even have the option.

00:50:04.059 --> 00:50:07.059
in a lot of cases. And even when they had the

00:50:07.059 --> 00:50:08.960
SCBA and were wearing it, they didn't, they didn't

00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.599
have hoods. They didn't have anything like the

00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:12.719
coat that you have. And they were wearing three

00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:14.480
quarter boots. And I got to tell you, they were,

00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:17.380
they were some of the toughest son of a bitches

00:50:17.380 --> 00:50:20.679
you ever met in your life, but they were not

00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:23.019
crawling down that hallway without an SCBA. You

00:50:23.019 --> 00:50:26.079
can't breathe 250 degree air. I don't care how

00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:28.559
tough you are. You simply cannot do it. Right.

00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:32.239
So they weren't fighting fires the way you think

00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:35.630
they were. Right. They weren't crawling down

00:50:35.630 --> 00:50:37.590
that hallway that you are crawling down today.

00:50:37.670 --> 00:50:39.869
You're crawling down that hallway today because

00:50:39.869 --> 00:50:42.789
you've got bunker gear and an SCBA. And that

00:50:42.789 --> 00:50:44.869
enables you to do something they couldn't do,

00:50:45.050 --> 00:50:47.690
which means you're in an environment that they

00:50:47.690 --> 00:50:51.289
never experienced. They had the cool ahead of

00:50:51.289 --> 00:50:53.550
themselves. They had a cool event extensively

00:50:53.550 --> 00:50:55.750
ahead of themselves before they could even make

00:50:55.750 --> 00:50:59.579
that entry. There's an in -between point, right?

00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:03.360
Because, yeah, they did breathe smoke. But you

00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:06.360
simply cannot breathe 250 degrees. I mean, it

00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:08.420
closes your airway and you're done, right? So

00:51:08.420 --> 00:51:11.559
you were doing something different than what

00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:13.039
you think they were doing. You're telling me

00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:14.619
that they didn't just breathe through a mustache

00:51:14.619 --> 00:51:16.860
or a beard and it magically cooled the air to

00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:20.320
breathe the village. Yeah. I mean, there was

00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.269
some – I got to tell you. I did this shit because

00:51:24.269 --> 00:51:27.070
this was, and I, I gratefully didn't do it for

00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:28.949
very long, but I did do it. You know, you did,

00:51:28.949 --> 00:51:32.289
you did this and it's helpful. It makes a difference,

00:51:32.409 --> 00:51:35.030
but you're still not, you're not making the push

00:51:35.030 --> 00:51:37.389
that you could make if you're properly dressed.

00:51:39.570 --> 00:51:43.050
So is it great? You know, this tradition of aggressive

00:51:43.050 --> 00:51:48.489
interior firefighting. Yes, but not what you

00:51:48.489 --> 00:51:51.480
think it was. because you simply when you're

00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:53.400
wearing what they were wearing when you're not

00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:55.500
when you can't wear what you are used to wearing

00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:58.260
today you simply cannot be in that environment

00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:00.800
you cannot and they weren't right they would

00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.340
cool from the front door or the front paw or

00:52:04.340 --> 00:52:07.519
from wherever it was safe and possible to cool

00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.460
and then they would advance to the extent that

00:52:10.460 --> 00:52:13.579
they could advance um simply because they were

00:52:13.579 --> 00:52:15.800
human beings and human beings have these limitations

00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:20.519
you know So from a tactical standpoint, the fire

00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:23.840
service has become, and I think this is part

00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.940
of what happened and what we bumped into when

00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:30.679
we started doing the work with UL, is you had

00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:34.679
a fire service in the 1960s and 70s that now

00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:37.539
they got bunker gear, now they got SCBAs. And

00:52:37.539 --> 00:52:39.159
I mean, they had them before, but I mean, they

00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:40.940
got them in a way that they could use them all

00:52:40.940 --> 00:52:43.179
the time, right? They were available, they were

00:52:43.179 --> 00:52:47.440
working properly, they were easy to use. And

00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:53.500
so your gear caught up with the fires and then

00:52:53.500 --> 00:52:57.000
actually surpassed it in a sense, I think, because

00:52:57.000 --> 00:52:59.800
the fuel loads in the buildings sort of stayed

00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:02.000
the same where the fires were, right? Where the

00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:04.599
work was, were still these old buildings with

00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:07.300
old fuel loads. And now I got really good gear

00:53:07.300 --> 00:53:09.880
and now I'm kicking ass and taking names. And

00:53:09.880 --> 00:53:12.059
then the built environment changed and you got

00:53:12.059 --> 00:53:13.659
plastics and you got lightweight construction

00:53:13.659 --> 00:53:16.769
and you got all of this. And now it's... It's

00:53:16.769 --> 00:53:19.949
gotten ahead of us again. And I think that that's

00:53:19.949 --> 00:53:22.170
part of what's happening. And why guys, why we're

00:53:22.170 --> 00:53:26.289
seeing in this latter stage of my career and

00:53:26.289 --> 00:53:28.769
even today, you're seeing where guys are getting

00:53:28.769 --> 00:53:31.449
caught in these environments now, you know, buildings

00:53:31.449 --> 00:53:33.469
coming down on them and the flashovers and things

00:53:33.469 --> 00:53:35.849
like that. Firefighters didn't, in my dad's era,

00:53:35.909 --> 00:53:39.090
my early career, that's not how you got burned

00:53:39.090 --> 00:53:41.570
or injured or whatever in this kind of catastrophic

00:53:41.570 --> 00:53:44.110
event. The building might fall down on you, but

00:53:44.110 --> 00:53:47.849
that was... flat out stupidity when that happened

00:53:47.849 --> 00:53:49.630
because you had to be there for so long for that

00:53:49.630 --> 00:53:53.550
to happen that that was just foolishness um but

00:53:53.550 --> 00:53:55.869
the the whole caught in the flash over burnt

00:53:55.869 --> 00:53:58.769
to death kind of thing that didn't happen then

00:53:58.769 --> 00:54:00.710
because you just you couldn't be there to begin

00:54:00.710 --> 00:54:04.949
with you know um but we're seeing that now because

00:54:04.949 --> 00:54:06.969
now we can be there doesn't mean we should be

00:54:06.969 --> 00:54:09.170
but we can we've got the protective gear that

00:54:09.170 --> 00:54:12.510
enables us to be in an environment that we either

00:54:12.510 --> 00:54:15.130
shouldn't be in at all or we should not be there

00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:18.400
but for a few seconds that it takes to change

00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:23.179
the environment. Having a gypsy career in the

00:54:23.179 --> 00:54:25.800
fire service. So I started in, I trained in Orlando.

00:54:26.380 --> 00:54:28.880
First job was Hialeah in the Miami area. Then

00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:30.739
went out to California for a few years, was on

00:54:30.739 --> 00:54:32.860
a truck company. Then moved back to the East

00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:35.619
coast, was on Orange County, very busy kind of,

00:54:35.619 --> 00:54:38.179
you know, I was on an engine, but also rescue.

00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:40.909
So now we're doing heavy. ems transport and then

00:54:40.909 --> 00:54:42.750
the last one was the one that protects disney

00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:45.670
so really kind of bizarre unique perspective

00:54:45.670 --> 00:54:48.389
but it gave me that kind of 30 000 foot view

00:54:48.389 --> 00:54:51.829
yeah and i started seeing a lot of the misinformation

00:54:51.829 --> 00:54:55.789
so perfect example i go to california incredible

00:54:55.789 --> 00:54:58.550
truck operations training you know we're doing

00:54:58.550 --> 00:55:00.750
building construction we're just drilling and

00:55:00.750 --> 00:55:03.610
drilling and drilling and drilling roof ops anaheim

00:55:03.610 --> 00:55:05.389
was excellent at getting on the roof cutting

00:55:05.389 --> 00:55:07.489
and then getting the hell off the roof straight

00:55:07.489 --> 00:55:10.820
away And then I go back to the East Coast and

00:55:10.820 --> 00:55:12.780
they're like, oh, we don't do vertical ventilation

00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:15.199
here because it's lightweight construction. And

00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:17.699
I'm like, but the whole building is lightweight

00:55:17.699 --> 00:55:19.679
construction in California because of the earthquakes.

00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:22.320
So what are you talking about? And you would

00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.159
rather put three companies of people under the

00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:28.179
roof than put a company on the roof to make a

00:55:28.179 --> 00:55:30.559
chimney. And I've seen it many, many times when

00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.440
I've been interior on a fire where the truck

00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:34.940
company is above us. All of a sudden, everything

00:55:34.940 --> 00:55:36.860
gets bare. Oh, there's the fire. You walk over

00:55:36.860 --> 00:55:39.340
and you put it out. So I just started seeing

00:55:39.340 --> 00:55:41.159
some of the fallacies, the way I was taught to

00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:43.820
throw a ladder in Florida, the way that we treat

00:55:43.820 --> 00:55:46.460
a car fire like a Class A fire instead of the

00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:50.059
Class B fire that it actually is. So talk to

00:55:50.059 --> 00:55:52.980
me about that. We're so siloed as a profession

00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:55.420
with each city and county and a lot of times

00:55:55.420 --> 00:55:57.420
not even really knowledge sharing unless you

00:55:57.420 --> 00:55:59.980
go to conferences and have the humility to learn.

00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:10.159
The word I always use is parochial. Silo is probably

00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:12.960
a better word. But, you know, the American Fire

00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.139
Service, and it's not that it isn't volunteer

00:56:15.139 --> 00:56:18.300
in other places, other countries, it is. But

00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:20.480
not to the extent it's here, because it's beyond

00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:24.139
volunteer. It's local. It's community. And there's

00:56:24.139 --> 00:56:27.239
all kinds of value to that. Don't get me wrong.

00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:30.039
I'm not knocking any of that part of it. But

00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:34.139
the downside to all that is you wind up with.

00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:38.000
what I call family owned and operated fire departments,

00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:41.539
right? The same small group of people in this

00:56:41.539 --> 00:56:44.440
community have run this thing for forever and

00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:46.260
ever and made it work, whether it's volunteer

00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:49.039
transitions, maybe to pay out on call full time.

00:56:50.019 --> 00:56:52.360
That doesn't always change things, right? It's

00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:55.079
still this family owned and operated fire department.

00:56:55.300 --> 00:56:58.980
So this is the way we do things here. You'll

00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:01.280
hear that today in the Chicago Fire Department

00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:03.400
is and has been one of the biggest fire departments

00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:06.599
in this country forever. And you will still hear

00:57:06.599 --> 00:57:10.019
guys say like it's gospel. Well, this is the

00:57:10.019 --> 00:57:14.659
Chicago way. This is the way we do it here. That

00:57:14.659 --> 00:57:19.260
can have some value. Right. But. In my personal

00:57:19.260 --> 00:57:22.360
opinion, there's more of a downside to that than

00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:24.980
not, because you're doing this, right? We don't

00:57:24.980 --> 00:57:27.960
need to. We are so good. We are so knowledgeable.

00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:33.079
We know. And that can just get you in trouble.

00:57:34.099 --> 00:57:37.260
And it often does. And I think that's what happens

00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:42.679
is, you know, Bruton Sini was a genius in many

00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:47.130
ways. And one of the genius things he... did

00:57:47.130 --> 00:57:51.409
was i or i heard him say he would ask you know

00:57:51.409 --> 00:57:55.349
well why why do we do it that way right and and

00:57:55.349 --> 00:57:57.449
the answer is well because that's the way we've

00:57:57.449 --> 00:58:01.110
always done it and alan had the foresight or

00:58:01.110 --> 00:58:03.110
the sense to ask the follow -up question well

00:58:03.110 --> 00:58:06.969
why did we always do it that way and the answer

00:58:06.969 --> 00:58:10.469
is because it works or at least it worked right

00:58:10.469 --> 00:58:14.079
nobody sat down around the kitchen table and

00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.380
say, okay, let's make up some really dangerous,

00:58:16.579 --> 00:58:19.960
lame -brained, stupid, nonsensical tactics for

00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:22.699
these guys, these new guys to learn that'll really

00:58:22.699 --> 00:58:25.480
fuck them up, right? And let's do that to them.

00:58:25.579 --> 00:58:27.639
Nobody sat down to do that, right? When they're

00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:31.420
passing along their traditions and their understandings,

00:58:31.420 --> 00:58:33.400
they're doing it because that's what worked for

00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:38.480
them, right? That made sense to them. It worked,

00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:41.159
and they want to share that knowledge with you,

00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:44.469
okay? That's a wonderful thing. That's part of

00:58:44.469 --> 00:58:47.210
what makes the fire service unique is this culture

00:58:47.210 --> 00:58:50.989
of passing along knowledge and earning your place

00:58:50.989 --> 00:58:55.190
and all those things. We have to be cognizant

00:58:55.190 --> 00:58:57.289
that there's always a cost for any of this stuff.

00:58:57.710 --> 00:59:00.630
The cost can be that you lose your perspective.

00:59:01.050 --> 00:59:03.570
It can turn into we've always done it that way.

00:59:04.489 --> 00:59:08.769
The example that might not be so relevant anymore

00:59:08.769 --> 00:59:13.719
but that I often gave is that At least in my

00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.579
early career, my early training part of my career,

00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:18.179
I guess, when I was starting to get into training,

00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:20.880
one of the things we would teach guys to do is

00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:24.019
vent as they searched. All right. You're calling

00:59:24.019 --> 00:59:26.219
along. You get to a window. What do you do with

00:59:26.219 --> 00:59:28.260
it? You vent it. And I could usually get any

00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:29.900
classroom full of guys and say, yeah, you vent

00:59:29.900 --> 00:59:32.300
it. You vent the window. Well, why do you vent

00:59:32.300 --> 00:59:34.539
the window? Right. Well, you want to get lift.

00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:36.539
You want to be able to improve your visibility.

00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:39.000
You want to have all these reasons why you would

00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:42.599
do this. Right. I said, OK, that's all fine.

00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:45.179
Right. But that can come with consequences. Right.

00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:46.940
If they're not nobody suppressing. I said, you

00:59:46.940 --> 00:59:48.539
know, where's the fire going to come? It's going

00:59:48.539 --> 00:59:50.360
to come to your location and all this kind of

00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:53.980
thing. But I would try to back it up and say,

00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:56.579
OK, if I were to ask somebody in my dad's generation

00:59:56.579 --> 01:00:00.500
why they vented that window. They would not say

01:00:00.500 --> 01:00:02.460
because of lift. They would not say because of

01:00:02.460 --> 01:00:05.719
visibility or survivability or anything like

01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:08.079
that. They say you take that window, you stick

01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:09.980
your head out the window, you take a couple of

01:00:09.980 --> 01:00:12.440
breaths of fresh air, and now you can continue

01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:16.440
your search. That's why they vented that window

01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.920
as they searched. Not for all these other reasons

01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:21.739
that we've invented to justify because we no

01:00:21.739 --> 01:00:25.590
longer vent to breathe, right? So when we lose

01:00:25.590 --> 01:00:28.829
our why, when we stop asking, well, why do we

01:00:28.829 --> 01:00:33.150
do it that way? Does it still work? Then we can

01:00:33.150 --> 01:00:37.630
lose that understanding. It was worth the risk

01:00:37.630 --> 01:00:40.130
in my dad's time because they didn't have any

01:00:40.130 --> 01:00:42.829
other choice. That's how you kept searching.

01:00:43.030 --> 01:00:45.230
You don't need to do that anymore to keep searching.

01:00:45.269 --> 01:00:48.889
So maybe in some situations there's alternative

01:00:48.889 --> 01:00:54.710
tactics to use. So long -winded answer, I think,

01:00:54.750 --> 01:00:59.909
and I went off my deep end, but I think that

01:00:59.909 --> 01:01:04.909
our traditions, as valuable as they are, can

01:01:04.909 --> 01:01:08.409
get in our way if we stop asking why. And if

01:01:08.409 --> 01:01:11.570
you can't, as a senior man, senior officer, senior

01:01:11.570 --> 01:01:17.719
person, as the person, you know. charged with

01:01:17.719 --> 01:01:20.320
passing on this knowledge, if you can't answer

01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:23.460
that young kid's why, that's his job is to ask

01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:26.000
why. If you've got somebody who's not asking

01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:28.719
why, that's scary to me. And you shouldn't be

01:01:28.719 --> 01:01:30.400
complaining about they're always asking why.

01:01:30.500 --> 01:01:32.039
They're supposed to ask why. And if you can't

01:01:32.039 --> 01:01:34.599
provide them with an answer, then get out of

01:01:34.599 --> 01:01:37.260
the way because you're not part of the solution.

01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:41.639
You owe them a why. And if we can answer the

01:01:41.639 --> 01:01:45.639
why, then it's great. But I think we own that

01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:49.960
part of it. The topic I talk about that I'm probably

01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:52.280
hated for the most is when I point that very

01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:54.420
thing out about the American fire helmet. And

01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:56.280
if you look over my shoulder, you can see I've

01:01:56.280 --> 01:01:58.719
got the schematics on my wall. And I think it

01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:02.920
says that the pattern was 1937. Firstly, at that

01:02:02.920 --> 01:02:04.880
time, that was the latest and greatest that they

01:02:04.880 --> 01:02:09.500
bought into. Secondly, you have a fire service

01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:12.099
that then will ridicule arguably better helmets

01:02:12.099 --> 01:02:14.760
around the world because they air quotes look

01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:17.840
stupid. Now, I never became a firefighter because

01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:20.059
I wanted to look cool. I became a firefighter

01:02:20.059 --> 01:02:22.079
because I wanted to help people. And as soon

01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:24.860
as there was better technology, I'm all ears.

01:02:24.860 --> 01:02:26.860
A tick? That sounds amazing. I can see through

01:02:26.860 --> 01:02:30.380
the smoke. Phenomenal. But I see that, you know,

01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:32.139
and then what's the response you get? Well, it's

01:02:32.139 --> 01:02:35.639
tradition. Like, bullshit. That's a hat. It's

01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:39.840
a curious thing to me because I could do the

01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:43.139
same thing. Every department I was on, we wore

01:02:43.139 --> 01:02:48.130
the traditional helmets. And then when I was

01:02:48.130 --> 01:02:50.130
in Algonquin, actually, they had transitioned

01:02:50.130 --> 01:02:53.130
to them just before I got there. And they were

01:02:53.130 --> 01:02:55.469
wearing the lighter colored gear, the brownish,

01:02:55.530 --> 01:02:58.210
whatever. And for some reason, they wanted black.

01:02:58.429 --> 01:03:01.070
And I really don't care. Maybe there's a big

01:03:01.070 --> 01:03:03.769
difference, but I didn't care. And we were cycling

01:03:03.769 --> 01:03:05.550
through the gear, and they wanted black. And

01:03:05.550 --> 01:03:07.789
the guy that was in charge of it, the lieutenant,

01:03:07.869 --> 01:03:09.889
was doing all the work and did a really good

01:03:09.889 --> 01:03:11.730
job in all other aspects. And I said, if you

01:03:11.730 --> 01:03:13.429
want black, get black. That's fine. You got black.

01:03:14.699 --> 01:03:16.579
As they're getting the gear, I managed to secure

01:03:16.579 --> 01:03:20.039
a European helmet. And I started wearing that

01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:21.739
around. This is right at the end of my career.

01:03:21.820 --> 01:03:23.380
Scared the shit, because they know that we're

01:03:23.380 --> 01:03:25.780
getting new gear anyway. Scared the shit out

01:03:25.780 --> 01:03:28.420
of them. They thought, oh, shit. You know, because

01:03:28.420 --> 01:03:30.360
I had done a couple other things like that where,

01:03:30.500 --> 01:03:33.320
you know, and they thought, oh, my God, is she

01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:36.420
going to make us wear these helmets, right? I

01:03:36.420 --> 01:03:39.139
feel the same way as you. It's like, and the

01:03:39.139 --> 01:03:43.000
things that I would tell guys, I go, well. First

01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:48.300
off, and this is where I worry because I was

01:03:48.300 --> 01:03:50.280
never in the armed forces. I never served in

01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:54.699
the military, so I can't really speak. I'm nervous

01:03:54.699 --> 01:03:57.099
about using them as an example because I wasn't

01:03:57.099 --> 01:04:00.880
there. I wasn't one of them. All that being said,

01:04:01.059 --> 01:04:03.219
is the Marine Corps a tradition -bound organization?

01:04:03.579 --> 01:04:05.780
Are they proud of their traditions? Absolutely.

01:04:06.349 --> 01:04:08.690
right? I mean, any Marine will tell you, hoorah,

01:04:08.730 --> 01:04:10.789
right? I mean, they put the cult in culture,

01:04:10.869 --> 01:04:13.369
for crying out loud, and they're proud of it.

01:04:14.690 --> 01:04:17.710
You will not see a Marine wearing a World War

01:04:17.710 --> 01:04:22.530
II Vietnam era helmet in Tibet. I mean, it just,

01:04:22.650 --> 01:04:25.869
they wouldn't, it wouldn't, right? They don't

01:04:25.869 --> 01:04:28.409
wear, they don't wear their traditions in Tibet.

01:04:28.610 --> 01:04:31.050
They wear their traditions in parades and at

01:04:31.050 --> 01:04:33.190
ceremonies, right? And they're very proud of

01:04:33.190 --> 01:04:36.260
it. as they should be and as we should be. But

01:04:36.260 --> 01:04:39.019
why are you wearing your traditions into battle?

01:04:39.179 --> 01:04:42.000
I don't get it. And then the other one I would

01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:43.880
throw at them, and you're welcome to steal it

01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:49.219
because it pisses them off, is I say, you want

01:04:49.219 --> 01:04:51.559
to be an aggressive interior firefighter? Wear

01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:55.139
a helmet designed for aggressive interior firefighters.

01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:58.059
The helmet you're wearing was designed to shed

01:04:58.059 --> 01:05:00.139
water as you were standing outside the building.

01:05:00.670 --> 01:05:03.769
It was to keep the sparks in the water. It was

01:05:03.769 --> 01:05:06.829
worn with a raincoat. It was meant to shed water.

01:05:06.969 --> 01:05:08.650
That was all it was meant to do. You want to

01:05:08.650 --> 01:05:10.769
be an aggressive interior firefighter and get

01:05:10.769 --> 01:05:14.730
a helmet designed to do that. That'll light them

01:05:14.730 --> 01:05:17.349
up. But the thing is, it's just simply saying,

01:05:17.570 --> 01:05:20.449
look, to me, it's the scapegoat. It's the example

01:05:20.449 --> 01:05:25.650
of the ego that's attached to this profession

01:05:25.650 --> 01:05:27.530
of service. And you see people talk about, well,

01:05:27.530 --> 01:05:28.969
it's for them. It's like, well, it's not, though.

01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:31.179
Because you keep posting pictures of yourself

01:05:31.179 --> 01:05:33.519
in your hat and you grow your mustache out and

01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:36.159
it's about you. If it's about them, you don't

01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:38.340
care how you look as long as whatever you're

01:05:38.340 --> 01:05:40.920
wearing is going to help you affect a rescue.

01:05:41.300 --> 01:05:43.800
And there was a bailout a few months ago and

01:05:43.800 --> 01:05:46.480
it was like a second story ladder bailout. And

01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:49.239
the moment he leant over the ladder, the helmet

01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:51.579
came off. You know what I mean? So what if he'd

01:05:51.579 --> 01:05:54.619
fallen and a simple, you know, better helmet

01:05:54.619 --> 01:05:56.219
would have saved his life, but instead he died

01:05:56.219 --> 01:05:59.050
of a... you know a fracture skull fracture so

01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:02.210
this is the point is like that to me the tradition

01:06:02.210 --> 01:06:06.369
is camaraderie and service and teamwork and courage

01:06:06.369 --> 01:06:09.329
that's the tradition of the fire service what

01:06:09.329 --> 01:06:11.949
we wear is just the equipment that's it and we

01:06:11.949 --> 01:06:14.170
have to disconnect those two and then let's talk

01:06:14.170 --> 01:06:16.250
about fitness too if you really are all about

01:06:16.250 --> 01:06:19.070
performance then why the hell aren't you the

01:06:19.070 --> 01:06:20.869
front of the line advocating for the rest and

01:06:20.869 --> 01:06:22.869
recovery and the shifts that will actually forge

01:06:22.869 --> 01:06:26.099
performance and fitness standards And, you know,

01:06:26.099 --> 01:06:28.139
mindfulness and all these things that are going

01:06:28.139 --> 01:06:31.500
to create the flow state of a high level operator

01:06:31.500 --> 01:06:34.119
as a paramedic, as a firefighter. But you're

01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:36.539
not. You just bought a hat. That doesn't make

01:06:36.539 --> 01:06:41.219
you an amazing firefighter. Yeah. Yeah. It's

01:06:41.219 --> 01:06:43.619
it's an easy rabbit hole to go down, you know.

01:06:43.659 --> 01:06:47.800
And this was another thing that Bruno had said

01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:51.139
to me. in an off -site conversation about these

01:06:51.139 --> 01:06:53.239
helmets. He said, you know, my wish for you is

01:06:53.239 --> 01:06:57.480
that you're still around when America makes the

01:06:57.480 --> 01:07:00.920
switch, that you're still here, that you're still

01:07:00.920 --> 01:07:03.340
in the fire. And it didn't happen, right? But

01:07:03.340 --> 01:07:05.820
it was one of, you know, again, with Alan, it

01:07:05.820 --> 01:07:08.679
was just that insight that, you know, this needs

01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:12.000
to happen, right? And it's possible someday we'll

01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.230
come around. And I'll tell you, so here's another

01:07:15.230 --> 01:07:17.449
thing, and I could be wrong on this, but as long

01:07:17.449 --> 01:07:22.309
as we're going to beat this one up, we were gravitating

01:07:22.309 --> 01:07:24.530
as a country toward not so much the European

01:07:24.530 --> 01:07:26.630
one, but I think we would have gotten there because

01:07:26.630 --> 01:07:30.449
the very traditional New Yorker, Boston, whatever,

01:07:30.570 --> 01:07:34.690
Chicago style, was going to more of a metro helmet,

01:07:34.829 --> 01:07:37.110
right? So it was rounder in shape and shorter

01:07:37.110 --> 01:07:39.969
brim and that sort of thing. And that was, yeah,

01:07:40.130 --> 01:07:44.519
that was the trend in the country. until 9 -11,

01:07:44.699 --> 01:07:48.099
right? And then the face of the fire service

01:07:48.099 --> 01:07:51.500
became New York City, as it naturally would have,

01:07:51.579 --> 01:07:56.619
right? And from that moment on, every firefighter

01:07:56.619 --> 01:08:00.199
in the country wanted to wear that helmet. I

01:08:00.199 --> 01:08:02.519
believe that that took place. I watched it happen.

01:08:02.619 --> 01:08:07.199
I was before and after. And, you know, and I

01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:11.510
think that stopped that. trend toward a different

01:08:11.510 --> 01:08:13.849
style helmet is that we all wanted to look that

01:08:13.849 --> 01:08:16.270
way now because you know we were america's heroes

01:08:16.270 --> 01:08:20.550
all of a sudden and um and that became the image

01:08:20.550 --> 01:08:22.670
of america's heroes so yeah that's that's how

01:08:22.670 --> 01:08:25.550
we want to look i i'm 100 in agreement with you

01:08:25.550 --> 01:08:29.350
i can't understand um because you know and it's

01:08:29.350 --> 01:08:32.609
it's funny going back into probably the 1990s

01:08:32.609 --> 01:08:34.369
again chicago's still wearing three -quarter

01:08:34.369 --> 01:08:37.670
boots not just the leather helmets but um And

01:08:37.670 --> 01:08:40.090
some European guys are riding in Chicago. They

01:08:40.090 --> 01:08:42.390
came to visit. They got permission to ride on

01:08:42.390 --> 01:08:45.250
one of the rescue squads. And they've got their

01:08:45.250 --> 01:08:47.649
gear with them, right? And the guys in Chicago

01:08:47.649 --> 01:08:49.449
in the squad, they're putting it on. They're

01:08:49.449 --> 01:08:51.590
putting the helmet on and the way the face piece

01:08:51.590 --> 01:08:53.090
clipped in and everything. And they go, this

01:08:53.090 --> 01:08:55.810
is cool. This is great. This is great. I'd never

01:08:55.810 --> 01:09:00.029
wear it, but this is great. Their intuitive response

01:09:00.029 --> 01:09:02.829
was, I get it. This makes perfect sense, right?

01:09:02.970 --> 01:09:05.149
But I'd never wear it because it don't look right.

01:09:07.530 --> 01:09:10.189
Well, just to underline, so you're a generational

01:09:10.189 --> 01:09:12.369
firefighter and you were the chief of training

01:09:12.369 --> 01:09:15.289
in Chicago Fire Department and you have this

01:09:15.289 --> 01:09:17.050
perception. I'm just going to leave it right

01:09:17.050 --> 01:09:22.949
there. Okay. Well, so kind of as a tangent to

01:09:22.949 --> 01:09:24.829
that, which I think is very important, you've

01:09:24.829 --> 01:09:28.130
talked about, you know, a revered fire department

01:09:28.130 --> 01:09:31.229
that when we look behind the curtain, didn't

01:09:31.229 --> 01:09:34.109
have mandates for SCBAs for the longest time,

01:09:34.250 --> 01:09:36.899
didn't have mandates for bunker gear. for even

01:09:36.899 --> 01:09:40.539
longer, which blows my mind. So let's talk about

01:09:40.539 --> 01:09:45.000
how do we turn the ship around? There's no question

01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:47.260
in my mind from what I've witnessed in the 20

01:09:47.260 --> 01:09:48.979
plus years that I've been either wearing a uniform

01:09:48.979 --> 01:09:51.720
or doing this now, that one of the challenges

01:09:51.720 --> 01:09:54.659
obviously is ego. And then this, again, this

01:09:54.659 --> 01:09:58.300
kind of projection of what a fire department

01:09:58.300 --> 01:10:00.699
should look like. But then we also see all the

01:10:00.699 --> 01:10:03.020
funerals. So we know that the way that a lot

01:10:03.020 --> 01:10:06.300
of these things are done is not working. How,

01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:09.739
you know, what were the barriers to change in

01:10:09.739 --> 01:10:12.460
Chicago fire on these areas? Because there must

01:10:12.460 --> 01:10:14.279
have been people beating the drum saying we need

01:10:14.279 --> 01:10:16.819
to make the change back then, too. And then how

01:10:16.819 --> 01:10:19.180
do we, you know, how do we overcome those barriers

01:10:19.180 --> 01:10:23.399
in 2025 so we can really forge a healthy, high

01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:30.000
performing fire service in America? Yeah. Chicago

01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:32.819
makes a bad example because they're. It's not

01:10:32.819 --> 01:10:35.079
just the fire department. The city itself is

01:10:35.079 --> 01:10:39.739
unique in a lot of different ways because of

01:10:39.739 --> 01:10:41.979
its political history and the state's political

01:10:41.979 --> 01:10:46.000
history and stuff. I often say there's, you know,

01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:49.899
the agenda of every meeting in the city of Chicago,

01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:51.899
regardless of the department, is exactly the

01:10:51.899 --> 01:10:54.659
same. The first question, something comes up,

01:10:54.659 --> 01:10:57.460
what's item number one? And item number one is,

01:10:57.579 --> 01:10:59.420
you know, get bunker gear for the fire department.

01:10:59.520 --> 01:11:03.619
Okay. uh i got a question do we have to well

01:11:03.619 --> 01:11:07.279
no okay next item you know if the answer is no

01:11:07.279 --> 01:11:11.100
if we don't have to they won't do it um and and

01:11:11.100 --> 01:11:14.300
i think that that permeates everything in the

01:11:14.300 --> 01:11:16.180
city of chicago every department they kind of

01:11:16.180 --> 01:11:18.220
just get on this effort you know we're not we're

01:11:18.220 --> 01:11:19.760
not going to be able to do it if we don't have

01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:22.989
to then unless they're compelled We're not going

01:11:22.989 --> 01:11:26.109
to do it. And so there's just this inertia that's

01:11:26.109 --> 01:11:28.270
built into the culture, not just the fire department,

01:11:28.409 --> 01:11:30.289
but the city of Chicago. There's this culture

01:11:30.289 --> 01:11:32.750
of inertia that we don't we don't do anything

01:11:32.750 --> 01:11:35.090
that we're not compelled to do if it wasn't our

01:11:35.090 --> 01:11:38.909
idea to begin with. You know, and even then,

01:11:38.970 --> 01:11:41.069
any idea internally that comes up, well, we don't

01:11:41.069 --> 01:11:44.170
have to do that, do we? No. OK, next, you know.

01:11:45.770 --> 01:11:47.829
and i think that was really the because we you

01:11:47.829 --> 01:11:49.810
know the bunker gear i mean honest to god we

01:11:49.810 --> 01:11:53.510
tested we had somebody wearing bunker gear on

01:11:53.510 --> 01:11:55.409
and off in the city of chicago fire department

01:11:55.409 --> 01:11:58.989
probably for 15 years right we were always testing

01:11:58.989 --> 01:12:02.010
it and that was the way they kicked that can

01:12:02.010 --> 01:12:03.869
down the road oh yeah we're still testing that

01:12:03.869 --> 01:12:07.010
we're you know but um and i don't know why they

01:12:07.010 --> 01:12:08.529
finally pulled the trigger i don't know if it

01:12:08.529 --> 01:12:11.010
was you know somebody uh somebody got hurt or

01:12:11.010 --> 01:12:12.529
whatever i don't i don't know what it was that

01:12:12.529 --> 01:12:20.909
compelled them but they finally did Anyway, I

01:12:20.909 --> 01:12:27.069
think if we're going to look at how do we make

01:12:27.069 --> 01:12:30.590
these fundamental changes, I really do think

01:12:30.590 --> 01:12:33.210
that ultimately it's going to be through the

01:12:33.210 --> 01:12:40.579
union, through the international. And they're

01:12:40.579 --> 01:12:42.779
on board with a lot of things, health and safety

01:12:42.779 --> 01:12:45.659
-wise and stuff like that. But when they make

01:12:45.659 --> 01:12:48.739
the connection, when they connect the dot, and

01:12:48.739 --> 01:12:52.180
if somebody from the international were to publicly

01:12:52.180 --> 01:12:54.779
say, you know what, these helmets have got to

01:12:54.779 --> 01:12:59.380
go, that will change the conversation. But you

01:12:59.380 --> 01:13:01.979
need somebody in the international that's got

01:13:01.979 --> 01:13:04.420
the courage or the sense and really believes

01:13:04.420 --> 01:13:06.060
that this is the case, that these have got to

01:13:06.060 --> 01:13:09.520
go. um and and we have to find a way to to make

01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:13.000
that happen i think then because once and i've

01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:15.779
often felt this if you had any one major city

01:13:15.779 --> 01:13:19.960
fire department switch to the different style

01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:21.979
helmets that that would break the mold right

01:13:21.979 --> 01:13:25.180
now it's okay right now now somebody else can

01:13:25.180 --> 01:13:27.699
do it because one major department did it you'd

01:13:27.699 --> 01:13:29.640
only need one chink in the armor and certainly

01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:32.380
wouldn't happen overnight but you'd need that

01:13:32.380 --> 01:13:36.319
first one And that first one might need to be

01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:39.840
the international and those sorts of things.

01:13:39.899 --> 01:13:44.899
Same thing with with the I remember a union official

01:13:44.899 --> 01:13:48.119
in Chicago and one of the when some of the sleep

01:13:48.119 --> 01:13:50.300
studies first started coming out. Right. This

01:13:50.300 --> 01:13:53.180
is all post 9 -11 when we had money for the first

01:13:53.180 --> 01:13:55.140
time to do things and look at things and all

01:13:55.140 --> 01:13:59.529
that. And I remember the whole sleep study stuff

01:13:59.529 --> 01:14:02.770
when it first came out. And this guy said flat

01:14:02.770 --> 01:14:05.949
out, he said, I am not going to be the one that

01:14:05.949 --> 01:14:09.550
gets blamed for the loss of the 24 -hour shift.

01:14:10.210 --> 01:14:12.130
Because that was the assumption at the time was

01:14:12.130 --> 01:14:13.789
that you're going to have to go to a 10 and 14

01:14:13.789 --> 01:14:16.649
or an eight -hour shift or whatever, right? So

01:14:16.649 --> 01:14:18.649
that you're not up for 24 hours. He says, I'm

01:14:18.649 --> 01:14:21.050
not going to be the guy that loses that shift,

01:14:21.170 --> 01:14:23.609
right? And that's as far as he could think through

01:14:23.609 --> 01:14:26.800
the thing. So if that's where they're starting

01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:30.079
from, then it's never going to happen. And I

01:14:30.079 --> 01:14:34.119
think that's changed. But I also think that some

01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:38.380
of these other things, if the international isn't

01:14:38.380 --> 01:14:42.380
on board, I don't see them happening. I've called

01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:45.840
them out before for the simple fact that our

01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:48.680
international leadership is out of Boston now.

01:14:48.819 --> 01:14:52.920
And Boston works 24 -72. And yet there has been

01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:57.109
zero. conversation about well if we work 24 72

01:14:57.109 --> 01:15:00.130
why shouldn't the rest of the country work 24

01:15:00.130 --> 01:15:03.529
72 so putting the helmets on you know aside from

01:15:03.529 --> 01:15:06.010
it that's that's you know obviously just a a

01:15:06.010 --> 01:15:08.189
separate conversation it's not you know not a

01:15:08.189 --> 01:15:10.390
hill i want to die on but the work week is and

01:15:10.390 --> 01:15:13.090
this is what really disappoints me like fairfax

01:15:13.090 --> 01:15:16.550
they still work 56 hours so again shows the absolute

01:15:16.550 --> 01:15:19.210
epic failure of leadership with that administration

01:15:19.210 --> 01:15:23.529
but now the current one works a 42 hour work

01:15:23.529 --> 01:15:25.680
week And there's looking across the country of

01:15:25.680 --> 01:15:28.119
these 56 and this mandatory overtime, these eight

01:15:28.119 --> 01:15:30.659
-hour weeks and these suicides and all the things,

01:15:30.779 --> 01:15:34.020
and they're tight -lipped. And I say, shame on

01:15:34.020 --> 01:15:36.479
you. Like, you know better. You actually enjoy

01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:38.640
that work week. Your men and women are enjoying

01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:40.979
that work week. And you're watching, not to mention

01:15:40.979 --> 01:15:43.039
the federal firefighters that are working 72

01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:46.319
hours. So if we're talking about courage and

01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:48.319
leadership, the IAFF needs to stand the fuck

01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:52.340
up and talk about the work week. Yeah. i i agree

01:15:52.340 --> 01:15:55.979
with you i i just you know um and and that sort

01:15:55.979 --> 01:15:59.539
of thing has to happen you know there needs to

01:15:59.539 --> 01:16:02.939
be a more of a groundswell right of you know

01:16:02.939 --> 01:16:07.979
push for these sorts of things and and i don't

01:16:07.979 --> 01:16:09.779
know and you would have a better sense of this

01:16:09.779 --> 01:16:14.460
because of you know your background but um I've

01:16:14.460 --> 01:16:16.539
always, you know, one of the bones I always had

01:16:16.539 --> 01:16:19.220
to pick with unionism in this country in general,

01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:22.340
right, as compared to the model in other countries,

01:16:22.439 --> 01:16:25.119
right, is that, you know, they look at health

01:16:25.119 --> 01:16:28.340
and safety. These are basic fundamental industrial

01:16:28.340 --> 01:16:31.119
hygiene issues, right? They're not looking at

01:16:31.119 --> 01:16:34.180
it as, you know, this is just, you know, your

01:16:34.180 --> 01:16:37.300
workplace should not be contributing to your,

01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:39.970
you know. or should not be a detriment to your

01:16:39.970 --> 01:16:42.670
health and your welfare, right? I mean, and that's

01:16:42.670 --> 01:16:45.149
industrial hygiene. That's a simple, basic concept.

01:16:45.489 --> 01:16:48.270
And we get it all messed up with all these, with

01:16:48.270 --> 01:16:51.010
the traditions and the this and the that. And

01:16:51.010 --> 01:16:54.289
it's just, you know, as a union, you should be

01:16:54.289 --> 01:16:57.109
all about this, you know, what makes the workplace,

01:16:57.430 --> 01:17:01.890
you know, the safest possible workplace I can

01:17:01.890 --> 01:17:04.069
provide for my employees. That's what you should

01:17:04.069 --> 01:17:07.319
be advocating for. and be damned their traditions

01:17:07.319 --> 01:17:09.640
you know that's not your job that's their job

01:17:09.640 --> 01:17:11.880
if they want to preserve some traditions or something

01:17:11.880 --> 01:17:14.039
that that's their business right that's that

01:17:14.039 --> 01:17:16.779
administration's business that's the organization's

01:17:16.779 --> 01:17:20.539
business the labor union i think should be that

01:17:20.539 --> 01:17:23.899
that radical voice that says these other things

01:17:23.899 --> 01:17:30.479
are more important yeah and um you know part

01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:33.079
of it is where and i think you hit on it and

01:17:33.079 --> 01:17:38.359
it's not It's just the look where it's located,

01:17:38.579 --> 01:17:42.199
you know, and where it's where its officers come

01:17:42.199 --> 01:17:44.199
from, where its people come from, the internals.

01:17:44.220 --> 01:17:46.279
Right. That is probably the most tradition bound

01:17:46.279 --> 01:17:48.619
part of the fire services in that part of the

01:17:48.619 --> 01:17:52.380
country. So you could expect the changes to be

01:17:52.380 --> 01:17:54.840
a little more difficult. Right. Because culturally,

01:17:54.939 --> 01:17:57.140
they grew up with all these, you know, if they

01:17:57.140 --> 01:18:00.039
grew up in California, you know, where they they're

01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:01.439
proud of their helmet. They don't want to give

01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:05.109
up theirs either. But, you know. Completely different,

01:18:05.250 --> 01:18:07.409
right? And a completely different sense of, you

01:18:07.409 --> 01:18:09.510
know, the built environment and a lot of things.

01:18:09.949 --> 01:18:12.510
But those guys don't make it into the hierarchy

01:18:12.510 --> 01:18:14.729
of the international because they're not in that

01:18:14.729 --> 01:18:16.810
part of the country, right? And that's how those

01:18:16.810 --> 01:18:18.869
things tend to work, right? If you have to be

01:18:18.869 --> 01:18:23.369
around it, you know, to be a part of it. But

01:18:23.369 --> 01:18:27.819
that's my take. I think the... We're making changes,

01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:32.039
but if we want to accelerate it and if we want

01:18:32.039 --> 01:18:33.979
to get over those next big humps, I think the

01:18:33.979 --> 01:18:36.680
international has to be on board. Well, there

01:18:36.680 --> 01:18:40.260
is a groundswell. The Florida, we have 10 departments

01:18:40.260 --> 01:18:43.199
that have gone to the 2472 in the last two years.

01:18:43.420 --> 01:18:45.920
Actually, just the other day, an Illinois department

01:18:45.920 --> 01:18:49.720
outside Chicago became either the first or second

01:18:49.720 --> 01:18:52.850
in your state. We've got Tennessee. We've got

01:18:52.850 --> 01:18:56.630
North Carolina. Plano, Texas just became the

01:18:56.630 --> 01:18:58.670
first in Texas. And there's another one near

01:18:58.670 --> 01:19:01.270
them that's trying to become the second. So there

01:19:01.270 --> 01:19:03.470
is this groundswell now. The governor signed

01:19:03.470 --> 01:19:08.850
in the, I forget the term because it's not actually

01:19:08.850 --> 01:19:12.529
the mandate, but a recommendation that the 42

01:19:12.529 --> 01:19:14.430
-hour work week should be standard in the state

01:19:14.430 --> 01:19:16.430
of Florida for firefighters. So there's enough

01:19:16.430 --> 01:19:19.130
groundswell now that I know this is being acknowledged.

01:19:19.710 --> 01:19:22.850
It's being rebuked. The Florida Fire Chiefs Association

01:19:22.850 --> 01:19:26.229
had an email saying that they do not agree with

01:19:26.229 --> 01:19:27.909
the 42 -hour work week. These are chiefs that

01:19:27.909 --> 01:19:30.810
work 40 hours a week. So, you know, some of the

01:19:30.810 --> 01:19:32.949
pushback is evident as well. But, you know, I

01:19:32.949 --> 01:19:35.590
think there's a point now where enough is enough.

01:19:35.710 --> 01:19:37.250
Like, are you going to come on board? Are you

01:19:37.250 --> 01:19:39.670
still going to, you know, hide behind whatever?

01:19:39.850 --> 01:19:42.489
And it's never, like you said, it's the 8s or

01:19:42.489 --> 01:19:45.310
the 12s. Anyone that's actually looked into this

01:19:45.310 --> 01:19:47.229
for more than half a second will see, no, that

01:19:47.229 --> 01:19:49.170
wasn't an option because, as I've pointed out,

01:19:49.289 --> 01:19:52.229
people that work 8s and 12s are ER physicians

01:19:52.229 --> 01:19:54.750
and nurses and cops and corrections officers

01:19:54.750 --> 01:19:57.550
and dispatchers. Do any of those professions

01:19:57.550 --> 01:20:00.270
make you think of a svelte tactical athlete?

01:20:00.350 --> 01:20:02.869
No. We know those shifts are awful for humans

01:20:02.869 --> 01:20:05.710
as well. We have a house. We have a firehouse.

01:20:06.489 --> 01:20:08.810
24s are great. Let's just give more rest and

01:20:08.810 --> 01:20:12.770
recovery in between. Yeah. I agree with you.

01:20:14.360 --> 01:20:17.899
You know, it's almost too obvious. I don't know.

01:20:18.279 --> 01:20:21.520
It's a strange, I don't know, you've been looking

01:20:21.520 --> 01:20:23.100
at this longer than me, and you probably have

01:20:23.100 --> 01:20:26.520
a background that gives you more insight into

01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:30.100
it. But Chicago actually turned down 24 -72s

01:20:30.100 --> 01:20:32.840
years and years ago. The firefighters did. So

01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:35.979
because of those single -role medics, right,

01:20:36.060 --> 01:20:39.380
there was an FLSA lawsuit, right? There's an

01:20:39.380 --> 01:20:41.899
exemption to the 40 -hour work week. through

01:20:41.899 --> 01:20:46.779
FSLA for emergencies for firefighters. The way

01:20:46.779 --> 01:20:50.300
it's written is for firefighters, right? That

01:20:50.300 --> 01:20:52.760
they don't have to meet the 40 -hour maximum

01:20:52.760 --> 01:20:55.819
or you don't have to pay the overtime for firefighters.

01:20:56.039 --> 01:20:58.960
Well, in Chicago, they have this large group

01:20:58.960 --> 01:21:00.800
of paramedics that aren't firefighters. They're

01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:02.979
not cross -trained. So they're single -role medics,

01:21:02.979 --> 01:21:06.600
right? So there was this, they had to do something.

01:21:06.680 --> 01:21:08.680
They had to reduce their hours or they'd be paying

01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:11.619
them overtime every week. So they went to the

01:21:11.619 --> 01:21:13.579
one in three for the paramedics, and they proposed

01:21:13.579 --> 01:21:15.479
that, well, let's just put the whole fire department

01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:17.199
on the one in three, and the firefighters didn't

01:21:17.199 --> 01:21:20.520
want it because it would be different because

01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:22.760
they'd lose their Kelly day, right? They'd lose

01:21:22.760 --> 01:21:25.039
that five days off, and they wanted to keep that

01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:28.600
five days. And those are nice. They are. But,

01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:31.000
yeah, they turned down the one in three because

01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:34.140
they didn't. I don't know. Five days off every

01:21:34.140 --> 01:21:36.479
three weeks versus three, well, not even three,

01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:37.819
that was two days off, really, if you look at

01:21:37.819 --> 01:21:41.340
the math. But yeah, the 72, every single shift.

01:21:42.399 --> 01:21:45.720
Yeah. So yeah, we turned it down. And I was like,

01:21:45.859 --> 01:21:49.140
okay. And I think the union was even on board

01:21:49.140 --> 01:21:50.739
at the time. It was one of those, you know, the

01:21:50.739 --> 01:21:53.199
vote was, no, we don't want to do it. It's like,

01:21:53.279 --> 01:21:55.500
what are you going to do? This is what's interesting.

01:21:55.779 --> 01:21:57.140
We'll get up this topic in a sec, because I want

01:21:57.140 --> 01:22:01.449
to get back into the training side. When I did

01:22:01.449 --> 01:22:03.890
that presentation in California, which I don't

01:22:03.890 --> 01:22:06.229
normally do, but that was the only thing that

01:22:06.229 --> 01:22:08.630
I really talk about these days as far as if I'm

01:22:08.630 --> 01:22:11.130
going to stand in front of a group. In California,

01:22:11.210 --> 01:22:13.510
it was like blowing their minds. They never even

01:22:13.510 --> 01:22:15.789
had the concept of a shorter work week given

01:22:15.789 --> 01:22:17.829
to them. Like you said, they're an echo chamber

01:22:17.829 --> 01:22:19.930
in themselves. But it's just simply when you

01:22:19.930 --> 01:22:22.810
do the math. If you distill down that the average

01:22:22.810 --> 01:22:24.989
person works an eight -hour day, so a nine -hour

01:22:24.989 --> 01:22:27.939
day with a one -hour lunch. If you do the same

01:22:27.939 --> 01:22:30.739
math with the fire service, we don't work one

01:22:30.739 --> 01:22:32.819
day on, two days off. We work three days on,

01:22:32.880 --> 01:22:35.680
one day off. And then that ends up being not

01:22:35.680 --> 01:22:37.920
10 days a month, but 30 days a month. And then

01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:39.939
if you extrapolate that over the whole year,

01:22:40.119 --> 01:22:45.680
we work 364 days a year. So we go around telling

01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:47.539
our neighbors we have the greatest schedule and

01:22:47.539 --> 01:22:50.680
I'm always home and I've got a side job. But

01:22:50.680 --> 01:22:53.680
in the reality, that's... Just complete smoke

01:22:53.680 --> 01:22:56.159
and mirrors. And like you said, if we go back

01:22:56.159 --> 01:22:59.680
far enough in history, 24 hours in a firehouse

01:22:59.680 --> 01:23:03.020
when you probably did run maybe a fire a week

01:23:03.020 --> 01:23:05.279
and you're hanging out with your boys and you're

01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:07.140
drinking and all that stuff. Yeah, totally different.

01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:09.520
But that is not the fire and EMS combined system

01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:13.399
of 2025. So we have to evolve. We wear SCBAs

01:23:13.399 --> 01:23:16.399
for a reason. Our favorite athletes don't stay

01:23:16.399 --> 01:23:22.130
up four days a week to perform. The whole sleep

01:23:22.130 --> 01:23:27.510
deprivation thing, that alone, I just can't figure

01:23:27.510 --> 01:23:30.829
out. Because that's so patently obvious. I mean,

01:23:30.850 --> 01:23:32.890
I don't think that's controversial at all anymore,

01:23:33.069 --> 01:23:36.229
what that does to you. And, you know, it's just

01:23:36.229 --> 01:23:39.189
accepted that, okay, you have to avoid that at

01:23:39.189 --> 01:23:41.550
all costs, unless you're a firefighter. Then

01:23:41.550 --> 01:23:45.090
we'll screw it. Then we'll do it. Or worse yet,

01:23:45.109 --> 01:23:46.989
a paramedic. I mean, these paramedics in Chicago,

01:23:47.189 --> 01:23:50.899
they're, you know, I mean, literally, And it's

01:23:50.899 --> 01:23:53.560
not just the busiest of the busy. You're averagely

01:23:53.560 --> 01:23:56.260
busy. Is there such a thing as, you know, your

01:23:56.260 --> 01:23:58.859
middle of the road ambulance? They come to work

01:23:58.859 --> 01:24:02.039
in the morning. They get their first run. You

01:24:02.039 --> 01:24:04.460
know, oftentimes they leave them at the hospital

01:24:04.460 --> 01:24:07.100
or whatever. I mean, they get and they're not

01:24:07.100 --> 01:24:10.819
back in that firehouse for 24 hours. You know,

01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:12.840
they get their meals handed to them. Quite literally,

01:24:12.920 --> 01:24:14.600
they come in, somebody hands them their meals

01:24:14.600 --> 01:24:19.020
and they go off on the next run. And that's common.

01:24:19.119 --> 01:24:20.819
That's as common as the day is long. They do

01:24:20.819 --> 01:24:24.140
not stop moving for the whole 24 hours. There's

01:24:24.140 --> 01:24:27.239
no downtime whatsoever. And they do this day

01:24:27.239 --> 01:24:31.979
in and day out and day in and day out. It is

01:24:31.979 --> 01:24:36.119
destroying people. And a lot of times when they're

01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:39.199
short enough, right, and if the guy is desperate

01:24:39.199 --> 01:24:42.199
enough financially, he'll do that every other

01:24:42.199 --> 01:24:46.159
day indefinitely because there's that much work

01:24:46.159 --> 01:24:49.079
available. Well, this is the thing. When you

01:24:49.079 --> 01:24:51.699
hear the cancer conversation, no one talks about

01:24:51.699 --> 01:24:54.119
the fact that sleep deprivation is a known carcinogen

01:24:54.119 --> 01:24:56.380
or shipwork. When you talk about the mental health

01:24:56.380 --> 01:24:58.300
conversation, no one talks about the fact that

01:24:58.300 --> 01:25:00.479
the way that you process trauma and that you

01:25:00.479 --> 01:25:03.819
heal is when you're asleep. So it's the amplifier

01:25:03.819 --> 01:25:06.060
for everything that would kill us, the heart

01:25:06.060 --> 01:25:09.039
disease, the strokes, all the things. It is directly

01:25:09.039 --> 01:25:11.720
related, directly correlated. Yet it's the one

01:25:11.720 --> 01:25:13.680
thing that we could change that would impact.

01:25:14.270 --> 01:25:16.090
all the deaths from all the different reasons

01:25:16.090 --> 01:25:18.510
and like you said there's a resistance to it

01:25:18.510 --> 01:25:24.289
yeah go figure well the other side of the conversation

01:25:24.289 --> 01:25:27.310
too while we're talking about chicago al capone

01:25:27.310 --> 01:25:30.489
obviously is a well -known gentleman and that

01:25:30.489 --> 01:25:34.090
was out of alcohol prohibition and when we finally

01:25:34.090 --> 01:25:36.869
as a country went this isn't working we have

01:25:36.869 --> 01:25:40.630
gangsters murdering everyone we we stopped And

01:25:40.630 --> 01:25:43.550
then was born drug prohibition, Harry Anslinger.

01:25:43.550 --> 01:25:45.689
And, you know, basically between job justification

01:25:45.689 --> 01:25:48.630
and racism, he became, you know, reefer madness.

01:25:48.770 --> 01:25:50.729
And now we've seen what we've seen today. And

01:25:50.729 --> 01:25:53.310
this is a conversation that we need to be having

01:25:53.310 --> 01:25:55.850
as well. If we look at the proactive elements

01:25:55.850 --> 01:25:58.210
that would make Americans happier and healthier.

01:25:58.970 --> 01:26:01.130
That would then alleviate a lot of the stress

01:26:01.130 --> 01:26:03.850
on the hospitals, on EMS, and we wouldn't have

01:26:03.850 --> 01:26:07.390
these insane call loads as well. But there's

01:26:07.390 --> 01:26:09.970
zero conversation about decriminalizing addiction,

01:26:10.210 --> 01:26:12.689
not smuggling, not selling, but addiction, about

01:26:12.689 --> 01:26:15.350
the health of the nation. We're 70 % obese or

01:26:15.350 --> 01:26:17.470
overweight, and we wonder why our EMS system

01:26:17.470 --> 01:26:19.949
is crumbling. Well, make people healthier, like

01:26:19.949 --> 01:26:22.229
you promised, for example, a year ago in election

01:26:22.229 --> 01:26:30.199
time. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. All right. You mentioned

01:26:30.199 --> 01:26:34.119
data as well. So this is coming from UL. Talk

01:26:34.119 --> 01:26:37.779
to me about the importance of studies. But I'd

01:26:37.779 --> 01:26:40.380
love to also contrast that with, as you alluded

01:26:40.380 --> 01:26:43.119
to earlier, when the call for data sometimes

01:26:43.119 --> 01:26:51.520
is put as a deliberate hurdle for progress. So

01:26:51.520 --> 01:26:58.640
I think the great leap that UL. is helping us

01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:05.079
make, right, is that we've reengaged with the

01:27:05.079 --> 01:27:10.699
technological and scientific part of our profession,

01:27:10.920 --> 01:27:14.779
which we were once upon a time engaged with and

01:27:14.779 --> 01:27:20.659
then got disengaged from, in my view of it. So

01:27:20.659 --> 01:27:23.899
we went along, you know, post -World War II,

01:27:23.939 --> 01:27:27.520
and actually, maybe even leading up to, but primarily

01:27:27.520 --> 01:27:31.899
post -World War II into the 60s, right, with

01:27:31.899 --> 01:27:34.239
the space race and that age and all that. I mean,

01:27:34.260 --> 01:27:37.039
technology, that was the thing. Everybody wanted

01:27:37.039 --> 01:27:40.520
the latest, greatest, right? And the fire service

01:27:40.520 --> 01:27:43.520
really was no different. that's when most of

01:27:43.520 --> 01:27:46.060
the equipment and the technology and stuff that

01:27:46.060 --> 01:27:47.920
we're familiar with and that we've developed

01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:50.000
and refined during the course of our lifetimes

01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:53.680
came into being. I'll give you my favorite example

01:27:53.680 --> 01:27:56.699
was the Chicago Fire Department under Robert

01:27:56.699 --> 01:27:59.020
J. Quinn, who was the fire commissioner for,

01:27:59.119 --> 01:28:01.939
I don't know, 50 years or some ridiculous thing.

01:28:03.479 --> 01:28:06.239
Before he became mentally ill, which he truly

01:28:06.239 --> 01:28:09.800
did, he got a little wacky, but they kept him

01:28:09.800 --> 01:28:13.260
in office. During the prime of his career, he

01:28:13.260 --> 01:28:17.439
was an innovator. He was a forward thinker. Chicago

01:28:17.439 --> 01:28:21.479
Fire Department had a fleet of maybe six, eight,

01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:26.100
maybe more high -pressure pumpers. Now, if you

01:28:26.100 --> 01:28:28.460
try to introduce that into the United States

01:28:28.460 --> 01:28:30.840
right now, they go, ah, that's European, that's

01:28:30.840 --> 01:28:32.739
somebody else, that's whatever, that's not the

01:28:32.739 --> 01:28:36.619
way we do it. It is the way we did it once upon

01:28:36.619 --> 01:28:38.640
a time, at least in Chicago, and there were other

01:28:38.640 --> 01:28:44.689
places. And the rank and file hated them. And

01:28:44.689 --> 01:28:47.109
the reason they hated them, because the guys

01:28:47.109 --> 01:28:49.649
that were assigned, if you had one in your area,

01:28:49.829 --> 01:28:54.210
they would send it on the initial response. Those

01:28:54.210 --> 01:28:57.029
guys could lead out and get water so fast they'd

01:28:57.029 --> 01:28:59.430
steal your fire from you. That's why they hated

01:28:59.430 --> 01:29:01.729
them, not because they didn't work. They worked

01:29:01.729 --> 01:29:05.430
so damn well that the guys hated them. Or so

01:29:05.430 --> 01:29:09.149
the story goes, right? And that's from my dad,

01:29:09.310 --> 01:29:11.229
right? So it's not firsthand, but it's pretty

01:29:11.229 --> 01:29:15.930
close. So they had these things, right? The fire

01:29:15.930 --> 01:29:18.949
service as a whole and this backward place that

01:29:18.949 --> 01:29:21.289
I keep complaining about was a forward -thinking

01:29:21.289 --> 01:29:24.949
place at one time, a very forward -thinking place

01:29:24.949 --> 01:29:29.350
at one time. The Chicago commissioner was famous

01:29:29.350 --> 01:29:32.569
for inventing or at least adopting and implementing

01:29:32.569 --> 01:29:35.710
the snorkel. piece of apparatus that you don't

01:29:35.710 --> 01:29:38.130
see around much anymore. But it was an articulating

01:29:38.130 --> 01:29:40.069
platform. It was one of the first articulating

01:29:40.069 --> 01:29:45.529
platforms that was ever put out. But then we

01:29:45.529 --> 01:29:50.149
lost connection with the, in my mind, the science

01:29:50.149 --> 01:29:52.090
and engineering that surrounds our core mission,

01:29:52.250 --> 01:29:55.109
which is putting off fires, right? How did this

01:29:55.109 --> 01:29:56.850
happen? Well, I think a couple of things happened.

01:29:57.029 --> 01:30:01.229
One is we got so damn busy and so damn poor and

01:30:01.229 --> 01:30:04.899
we could hardly keep up. Right. So 60s and 70s

01:30:04.899 --> 01:30:07.720
and the stagflation that was happening and the

01:30:07.720 --> 01:30:09.840
cities were burning and the fire departments

01:30:09.840 --> 01:30:12.000
were just trying to keep their heads above water.

01:30:12.100 --> 01:30:15.779
Right. And they weren't thinking about research

01:30:15.779 --> 01:30:18.640
and development and things like that. And then

01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:22.060
on the heels of that comes all these new mandates,

01:30:22.340 --> 01:30:26.760
EMS, hazardous materials, public education, you

01:30:26.760 --> 01:30:28.260
know, all these other things that are getting

01:30:28.260 --> 01:30:32.060
piled up on top of that core mission. And you're

01:30:32.060 --> 01:30:35.300
so busy trying to adapt to that and implement

01:30:35.300 --> 01:30:39.659
that, that you, again, start paying less and

01:30:39.659 --> 01:30:44.220
less attention to that core mission. And to the

01:30:44.220 --> 01:30:46.539
point of this part of the discussion, the science

01:30:46.539 --> 01:30:48.979
and the engineering that underpins that core

01:30:48.979 --> 01:30:52.260
mission. You know, I always like to say when

01:30:52.260 --> 01:30:55.239
I was making presentations, they called it Fire

01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:59.670
Engineering Magazine for a reason. It used to

01:30:59.670 --> 01:31:02.390
be the Fireman's Journal, and they very deliberately

01:31:02.390 --> 01:31:06.270
in the 1940s changed the name to Fire Engineering

01:31:06.270 --> 01:31:10.229
because they wanted it to reflect the reality

01:31:10.229 --> 01:31:12.449
of the American fire service. It's becoming more

01:31:12.449 --> 01:31:15.430
engineering -based, more science -based, all

01:31:15.430 --> 01:31:16.949
that kind of stuff, and they wanted to reflect

01:31:16.949 --> 01:31:21.829
that. So it has been part of our history and

01:31:21.829 --> 01:31:25.340
our culture off and on. for decades, for generations.

01:31:25.840 --> 01:31:28.359
And I think the generation that we're most familiar

01:31:28.359 --> 01:31:31.140
with is always ours and the one or two preceding

01:31:31.140 --> 01:31:33.779
ours, right? And in those generations, it got

01:31:33.779 --> 01:31:38.640
lost for a while. And I think UL has helped us

01:31:38.640 --> 01:31:42.340
bring that back, right? Is that there is a science

01:31:42.340 --> 01:31:46.960
and an engineering that underpins our core profession

01:31:46.960 --> 01:31:49.479
and we need to be versed in it if we're going

01:31:49.479 --> 01:31:51.500
to be good at what we do. And they're giving

01:31:51.500 --> 01:31:54.979
us the ability to do that. So it really has very

01:31:54.979 --> 01:31:57.039
little to do with whether or not you open up

01:31:57.039 --> 01:31:59.000
the nozzle from inside the building first or

01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:00.819
outside the building first. And they couldn't

01:32:00.819 --> 01:32:03.180
give, I don't know anybody at UL gives a rat's

01:32:03.180 --> 01:32:06.960
ass which you do or when. That's not what they're

01:32:06.960 --> 01:32:08.680
about. That's not what they're trying to do.

01:32:08.779 --> 01:32:11.159
They want to give you the information you need,

01:32:11.260 --> 01:32:14.239
really good information, raw data, raw information,

01:32:14.539 --> 01:32:17.020
you know, distilled in a way that it can be digested,

01:32:17.039 --> 01:32:19.960
but still fundamental information that you can

01:32:19.960 --> 01:32:23.779
use, actually use and apply. to make better decisions

01:32:23.779 --> 01:32:26.739
on the fire ground. That's the mission. That's

01:32:26.739 --> 01:32:29.279
the goal. And I think they're doing an exceptionally

01:32:29.279 --> 01:32:31.760
good job. And now they've taken on, they've become

01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:36.199
so successful, UL FSRI, that part of UL, is that

01:32:36.199 --> 01:32:39.619
they've taken on a much broader mission now as

01:32:39.619 --> 01:32:42.199
well that many of us probably don't pay a whole

01:32:42.199 --> 01:32:45.560
lot of attention to. But the whole, the like

01:32:45.560 --> 01:32:48.079
close before you goes, the whole public service

01:32:48.079 --> 01:32:51.850
aspect of it, right? the idea is that you've

01:32:51.850 --> 01:32:55.609
got to make the world more fire safe. And how

01:32:55.609 --> 01:32:57.489
do you go about doing that? So they're expanding

01:32:57.489 --> 01:33:04.590
into those areas as well, more so. My little

01:33:04.590 --> 01:33:09.010
piece of it was trying to translate as best I

01:33:09.010 --> 01:33:12.090
could to somebody who didn't have the time or

01:33:12.090 --> 01:33:14.369
inclination to pay as close attention to it as

01:33:14.369 --> 01:33:18.170
I would or somebody else might. You know, we

01:33:18.170 --> 01:33:21.430
all want. I remember very early on, you know,

01:33:21.430 --> 01:33:23.510
guys would say, you know, I don't need to know

01:33:23.510 --> 01:33:25.829
all that. I just need to know, you know, tell

01:33:25.829 --> 01:33:27.750
me what I really need to know. Don't give me

01:33:27.750 --> 01:33:30.470
all that, you know, fancy smancy stuff. No, you

01:33:30.470 --> 01:33:33.050
really need to know this. You really need to

01:33:33.050 --> 01:33:36.850
know. And it's not, you know what, it's fire

01:33:36.850 --> 01:33:39.470
science. It's not rocket science. You know, it's

01:33:39.470 --> 01:33:42.090
not physics. It's really pretty simple, basic

01:33:42.090 --> 01:33:45.260
stuff, right? If you've got the smarts. to get

01:33:45.260 --> 01:33:48.239
that paramedic license you got the smarts to

01:33:48.239 --> 01:33:50.340
understand anything you need to understand coming

01:33:50.340 --> 01:33:53.239
out of ul it's not it's not beyond your ability

01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:59.100
whatsoever so what's been interesting from the

01:33:59.100 --> 01:34:02.680
the human part is like for example going back

01:34:02.680 --> 01:34:04.640
to the to the shifts people will say well we

01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:07.680
need to see data and i've started to realize

01:34:07.680 --> 01:34:11.300
well where is that line Of just simple common

01:34:11.300 --> 01:34:12.899
sense. So let me get this straight. You want

01:34:12.899 --> 01:34:17.180
someone to do a longitudinal study if a 42 hour

01:34:17.180 --> 01:34:19.439
work week is healthier than a 56 hour work week.

01:34:20.079 --> 01:34:22.319
And then I look at, you know, the absence of

01:34:22.319 --> 01:34:23.659
study because people like is that they are like,

01:34:23.720 --> 01:34:25.439
no. And that's another good question, isn't it?

01:34:25.819 --> 01:34:28.100
Why are we not studying the thing that's killing

01:34:28.100 --> 01:34:30.699
firefighters the most? We're ignoring it completely.

01:34:31.529 --> 01:34:34.090
So what I realize is that firstly, you know,

01:34:34.090 --> 01:34:36.750
we've done a terrible job of educating the researchers

01:34:36.750 --> 01:34:39.130
on what needs to actually be studied on the human

01:34:39.130 --> 01:34:41.569
side I'm talking about now. But secondly, where

01:34:41.569 --> 01:34:44.649
I see people asking for data a lot of times is

01:34:44.649 --> 01:34:48.189
just so they can avoid making a decision. Well,

01:34:48.250 --> 01:34:49.829
I need to see study. No, you don't need to see

01:34:49.829 --> 01:34:53.210
a study. You're living the study. Locally here,

01:34:53.270 --> 01:34:55.949
you have had five suicides and now you just had

01:34:55.949 --> 01:34:58.369
four firefighters arrested for hazing. There

01:34:58.369 --> 01:35:00.489
is no more study needed for fuck's sake. You

01:35:00.489 --> 01:35:02.760
know what I mean? What you're doing is not working.

01:35:02.819 --> 01:35:05.800
You need to make a change, period. So I think

01:35:05.800 --> 01:35:07.779
this is the problem with the science world. And

01:35:07.779 --> 01:35:09.800
we saw it during COVID and some other areas is

01:35:09.800 --> 01:35:13.560
it's become very convoluted. And the areas that

01:35:13.560 --> 01:35:16.340
absolutely need science behind them and need

01:35:16.340 --> 01:35:20.260
studies are, you know, getting washed away from

01:35:20.260 --> 01:35:23.100
all these calls for studies where they simply

01:35:23.100 --> 01:35:25.159
aren't needed. There's things that you know.

01:35:25.789 --> 01:35:28.510
you know, intuitively are a truth and we do,

01:35:28.550 --> 01:35:31.170
we need to do no studies whatsoever. And then

01:35:31.170 --> 01:35:33.010
as you alluded to, there are areas, especially

01:35:33.010 --> 01:35:35.869
debunking fire service myths where we lean, we

01:35:35.869 --> 01:35:38.710
need to lean back into the science again. Yeah,

01:35:38.710 --> 01:35:44.310
I agree. I think the, and what I hope. um will

01:35:44.310 --> 01:35:47.649
come from this is that maybe the example that

01:35:47.649 --> 01:35:50.149
that ul has set over the last dozen years or

01:35:50.149 --> 01:35:53.329
so starts to permeate into other the more human

01:35:53.329 --> 01:35:55.750
aspects and and those sort of things because

01:35:55.750 --> 01:35:59.970
um you know both kerber and madrikowski were

01:35:59.970 --> 01:36:03.550
you know we'll tell you at any at a drop of a

01:36:03.550 --> 01:36:06.930
hat This work has always actually been done.

01:36:07.050 --> 01:36:09.149
This kind of research, there's been research

01:36:09.149 --> 01:36:11.310
like this done. You know, it wasn't anything

01:36:11.310 --> 01:36:15.350
that we invented, you know, but it wasn't being

01:36:15.350 --> 01:36:18.289
used. You know, it'd get published in some arcane

01:36:18.289 --> 01:36:21.789
journal somewhere, put on a shelf, and nobody

01:36:21.789 --> 01:36:24.970
did anything with it, right? What you all did

01:36:24.970 --> 01:36:27.569
differently was the whole, how do we make this

01:36:27.569 --> 01:36:29.710
implementable? How do we get this to the fire

01:36:29.710 --> 01:36:31.170
service in a way? How do you get the science

01:36:31.170 --> 01:36:33.710
to the street? so that they could be used. And

01:36:33.710 --> 01:36:38.270
I think that example might be useful in these

01:36:38.270 --> 01:36:40.789
other aspects, right? As you said, the work has

01:36:40.789 --> 01:36:43.029
already been done. It'd be nice if we did a more

01:36:43.029 --> 01:36:45.130
modern one or whatever that, you know, there's

01:36:45.130 --> 01:36:48.149
nuances to that. But to your point, the fundamental

01:36:48.149 --> 01:36:50.989
work has already been done. We know what, you

01:36:50.989 --> 01:36:54.090
know, but how do we get it in a usable form to

01:36:54.090 --> 01:36:57.149
the fire service so that they'll take action?

01:36:58.119 --> 01:36:59.960
Because I think that's part of the example that

01:36:59.960 --> 01:37:03.720
UL has given us is how do you make this stuff

01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:08.220
actionable? And a piece of it is you put firefighters

01:37:08.220 --> 01:37:12.140
on your research panels. And so you make it very

01:37:12.140 --> 01:37:15.300
much involve them quite literally in the process.

01:37:15.640 --> 01:37:19.060
And they become, you know, not only do they become

01:37:19.060 --> 01:37:23.369
your spokespeople, but. You all, over the course

01:37:23.369 --> 01:37:25.189
of the years, has done a lot of things very differently

01:37:25.189 --> 01:37:27.130
because the firefighters were there saying, no,

01:37:27.130 --> 01:37:29.350
no, no, wait a minute. That's not what we need

01:37:29.350 --> 01:37:31.130
or that's not what we mean or that's not what

01:37:31.130 --> 01:37:34.350
we want to look at. And so they, you know, shifted

01:37:34.350 --> 01:37:37.850
gears to accommodate that. And it's paid dividends,

01:37:37.890 --> 01:37:40.930
paid really big dividends, I think. And perhaps

01:37:40.930 --> 01:37:42.550
that's something that we need in these other

01:37:42.550 --> 01:37:46.310
areas as well, is this more direct involvement

01:37:46.310 --> 01:37:50.569
of the fire service in the research that is being

01:37:50.569 --> 01:37:53.869
done. Or in some, you know, something like that.

01:37:53.909 --> 01:37:58.369
And that puts me back personally to the international.

01:37:58.750 --> 01:38:02.029
And just in case there's some, you know, like

01:38:02.029 --> 01:38:04.569
Sean, my buddy old Sean and a few others, there

01:38:04.569 --> 01:38:06.750
are people within the international that are

01:38:06.750 --> 01:38:09.270
very much on board with all of this and want

01:38:09.270 --> 01:38:11.789
to see it happen. Right. So it's not like they're,

01:38:11.789 --> 01:38:15.550
you know, not engaged at all. But I don't think

01:38:15.550 --> 01:38:18.970
the tipping point has happened just yet. I want

01:38:18.970 --> 01:38:21.090
to go to some, you know, the highlights of your

01:38:21.090 --> 01:38:23.289
career. But just before we do, while we're on

01:38:23.289 --> 01:38:25.489
this topic, I mean, you talked about innovation

01:38:25.489 --> 01:38:27.989
from the 50s, for example, that was then rebuked

01:38:27.989 --> 01:38:29.850
that, you know, it sounded like it was very effective.

01:38:30.010 --> 01:38:33.170
You know, we get the tarps over the car fires.

01:38:33.270 --> 01:38:35.090
People are, you know, I would never do that.

01:38:35.170 --> 01:38:37.310
But you see the demos and they seem to work really

01:38:37.310 --> 01:38:40.789
well with zero war. So if you were king for a

01:38:40.789 --> 01:38:44.270
day, removing all the egos and all the things

01:38:44.270 --> 01:38:47.140
that we've discussed today. With the science

01:38:47.140 --> 01:38:48.899
and the history and all these other elements

01:38:48.899 --> 01:38:50.539
and the innovation that you've seen from around

01:38:50.539 --> 01:38:52.960
the world, what would be some of the tactics,

01:38:53.300 --> 01:38:56.340
innovations that you would bring to the American

01:38:56.340 --> 01:38:59.079
Fire Service nationally that would help elevate

01:38:59.079 --> 01:39:09.739
us? That's asking a lot. I think we've talked

01:39:09.739 --> 01:39:14.500
a lot about them. And the helmet is the representative.

01:39:17.100 --> 01:39:20.039
But I think just this whole idea that we don't

01:39:20.039 --> 01:39:21.899
wear our traditions into battle. We should be

01:39:21.899 --> 01:39:25.880
wearing, you know, our gear should reflect the

01:39:25.880 --> 01:39:28.000
best state of the art that's available right

01:39:28.000 --> 01:39:34.199
now. And I think a means to that is, you know,

01:39:34.239 --> 01:39:37.859
a soldier typically doesn't have any gear with

01:39:37.859 --> 01:39:40.260
his name on it, right? You're issued stuff and

01:39:40.260 --> 01:39:42.199
then you give that back. And I don't know that

01:39:42.199 --> 01:39:44.539
we really need gear with our name on it. kind

01:39:44.539 --> 01:39:46.840
of thing. And that might be part of how you fix

01:39:46.840 --> 01:39:50.020
that, right? Is that you get your gear is sized

01:39:50.020 --> 01:39:52.420
for you, but it's, it's there, you know, for

01:39:52.420 --> 01:39:54.420
you to use on that shift. And then it goes and

01:39:54.420 --> 01:39:56.119
gets cleaned or whatever. And it might not be

01:39:56.119 --> 01:39:58.060
the exact same helmet that comes back to you.

01:39:59.479 --> 01:40:02.199
But it's the prop, it's what you actually need

01:40:02.199 --> 01:40:06.239
to do your, to do your job. So, so I think that

01:40:06.239 --> 01:40:09.079
the idea that the, the gear should reflect the

01:40:09.079 --> 01:40:12.060
mission and not the traditions of the fire service.

01:40:12.939 --> 01:40:19.239
would be one that I would spend my time on. Physical

01:40:19.239 --> 01:40:21.300
fitness is the other one. And I came to this

01:40:21.300 --> 01:40:25.520
very late. I got to be honest. I smoked like

01:40:25.520 --> 01:40:28.520
a chimney until I was almost 50. So I was not,

01:40:28.539 --> 01:40:31.859
by definition, I was not fit. If you're a smoker,

01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:37.420
you're not fit. But the fitness, I mean, I would

01:40:37.420 --> 01:40:40.640
ban the use of tobacco and vaping in the fire

01:40:40.640 --> 01:40:44.149
service if I could. Just that would be cause

01:40:44.149 --> 01:40:48.770
of dismissal. That is just so, you know, patently

01:40:48.770 --> 01:40:51.069
not good for you, not good for your mission.

01:40:51.149 --> 01:40:53.689
You can't, you know, again, if it's all about

01:40:53.689 --> 01:40:56.850
them, then you shouldn't be using tobacco. Right.

01:40:57.630 --> 01:40:59.609
Because you can't do both at the same time. You

01:40:59.609 --> 01:41:01.649
can't you can't be a high performing firefighter

01:41:01.649 --> 01:41:05.109
and use tobacco at the same time. So that and

01:41:05.109 --> 01:41:07.390
that would probably be my my lead on the whole

01:41:07.390 --> 01:41:09.449
health and fitness thing. And there would be

01:41:09.449 --> 01:41:13.090
actual physical fitness standards. uh if i could

01:41:13.090 --> 01:41:15.010
wave a magic wand you would have to do whatever

01:41:15.010 --> 01:41:18.149
it is you know um i'm not i'm not the expert

01:41:18.149 --> 01:41:20.409
out so you know but represented you know you

01:41:20.409 --> 01:41:22.210
got to do so many push -ups or pull -ups or whatever

01:41:22.210 --> 01:41:25.829
come on we we know you know there's no mystery

01:41:25.829 --> 01:41:28.670
here you're either physically capable or you're

01:41:28.670 --> 01:41:30.270
not and you have to maintain that throughout

01:41:30.270 --> 01:41:34.670
your career i think those would be the big things

01:41:34.670 --> 01:41:38.979
if we could Cause I think, I think the other,

01:41:39.000 --> 01:41:41.760
the other ones are more easily digestible or

01:41:41.760 --> 01:41:43.439
we've made enough inroads and a lot of other

01:41:43.439 --> 01:41:45.039
things, but we're still struggling with the,

01:41:45.039 --> 01:41:47.699
with the truly fit, the mental and physical fitness

01:41:47.699 --> 01:41:51.579
and actually having, you know, hard parameters

01:41:51.579 --> 01:41:56.239
that we adhere to and the gear, the whole, there's

01:41:56.239 --> 01:42:00.779
still a lot of resistance with, with you know,

01:42:00.779 --> 01:42:03.600
like the whole smooth bore debate and those sorts

01:42:03.600 --> 01:42:05.960
of things like we do it, you know, that we do

01:42:05.960 --> 01:42:11.000
it this way. And the other thing that I would

01:42:11.000 --> 01:42:15.819
do is that there would be more regional fire

01:42:15.819 --> 01:42:18.899
services than there are. I mean, California sort

01:42:18.899 --> 01:42:20.479
of kind of does it. You were out there, so you

01:42:20.479 --> 01:42:22.000
would understand it better. But the whole Cal

01:42:22.000 --> 01:42:24.779
Fire thing, to me, kind of makes sense. I don't

01:42:24.779 --> 01:42:26.840
know if it works the way I think it works, but

01:42:26.840 --> 01:42:30.550
it kind of makes sense. My experience late in

01:42:30.550 --> 01:42:33.369
my career in northern Illinois was there are

01:42:33.369 --> 01:42:35.909
a lot of fire departments that would consolidate

01:42:35.909 --> 01:42:38.390
if they could, but there's actually legalities

01:42:38.390 --> 01:42:40.029
that get in their way. The state makes it more

01:42:40.029 --> 01:42:43.390
difficult for them to do it, but they would like

01:42:43.390 --> 01:42:44.970
to do it because operationally it would make

01:42:44.970 --> 01:42:48.869
sense for them. But the parochialism within the

01:42:48.869 --> 01:42:51.109
state, you know, the legislature is just, you

01:42:51.109 --> 01:42:55.569
know, it makes it too hard to do. So I think

01:42:55.569 --> 01:43:00.260
consolidation would be good. uh for parts of

01:43:00.260 --> 01:43:03.300
the american fire service and i you know find

01:43:03.300 --> 01:43:06.079
a way to facilitate that not shove it down anybody's

01:43:06.079 --> 01:43:07.760
throat but the places that want to consolidate

01:43:07.760 --> 01:43:10.380
and be more regional let them do it because where

01:43:10.380 --> 01:43:12.239
it does happen it seems to be pretty successful

01:43:12.239 --> 01:43:16.979
with fitness standards with you having you know

01:43:16.979 --> 01:43:19.979
your father's career and your career i it's always

01:43:19.979 --> 01:43:21.340
blown my mind because i didn't come into the

01:43:21.340 --> 01:43:25.260
fire service tool my first job is 04 but we were

01:43:25.260 --> 01:43:28.140
held to a very high standard In the fire academy

01:43:28.140 --> 01:43:30.640
and then orientation at Hialeah, I mean, I guess

01:43:30.640 --> 01:43:33.039
that class is still revered to this day because

01:43:33.039 --> 01:43:35.199
they had a lot of time to kick our ass while

01:43:35.199 --> 01:43:37.020
the non -certs went through all their training.

01:43:37.380 --> 01:43:40.779
But the point being, the bar was set. high at

01:43:40.779 --> 01:43:44.279
the front door. So in my generation, at least

01:43:44.279 --> 01:43:46.319
none of us can turn around and go, Oh, it's not

01:43:46.319 --> 01:43:49.220
fair for a fitness standard. When you knew exactly

01:43:49.220 --> 01:43:51.199
what was expected of you in fire Academy, you

01:43:51.199 --> 01:43:54.380
had to don gear, you know, throw hose and extra

01:43:54.380 --> 01:43:56.319
cylinders on your back and climb stairs and drag

01:43:56.319 --> 01:44:00.159
dummies and all the things. and yet when i speak

01:44:00.159 --> 01:44:02.720
to the ocean lifeguards it blows their mind that

01:44:02.720 --> 01:44:04.439
we don't have you speak to the you know special

01:44:04.439 --> 01:44:06.819
forces special operations they they had no idea

01:44:06.819 --> 01:44:08.760
that police and fire had no fitness standards

01:44:08.760 --> 01:44:12.220
so where does that resistance come from and how

01:44:12.220 --> 01:44:14.319
do we turn that around because it's not only

01:44:14.319 --> 01:44:16.100
the performance obviously if you're opposing

01:44:16.100 --> 01:44:18.199
fitness standards you're basically promoting

01:44:18.199 --> 01:44:22.399
disease in the fire service yeah it comes from

01:44:22.399 --> 01:44:28.739
two places um depending on Where you're located

01:44:28.739 --> 01:44:30.479
and how big your fire department is, right? So

01:44:30.479 --> 01:44:36.000
one place is in the truly rural and the smaller

01:44:36.000 --> 01:44:37.699
town fire departments is where am I going to

01:44:37.699 --> 01:44:40.199
get people if they have to meet these standards,

01:44:40.340 --> 01:44:42.260
I'll have nobody. I have next to nobody now,

01:44:42.359 --> 01:44:43.960
and if they have to meet these standards, I'll

01:44:43.960 --> 01:44:46.800
have nobody at all. So that's part of it, and

01:44:46.800 --> 01:44:48.560
that's a legitimate question that needs to be

01:44:48.560 --> 01:44:52.760
addressed. And then the other part is some misguided.

01:44:56.440 --> 01:44:59.520
ideas from the union again right they're protecting

01:44:59.520 --> 01:45:01.500
jobs they don't want guys to lose their jobs

01:45:01.500 --> 01:45:04.420
uh to which i think the answer is really simple

01:45:04.420 --> 01:45:08.060
from here on right go ahead no we're not going

01:45:08.060 --> 01:45:10.100
to affect anybody right now but from here on

01:45:10.100 --> 01:45:13.260
we got we got it someday we just have to say

01:45:13.260 --> 01:45:16.560
from now on starting with the next class this

01:45:16.560 --> 01:45:19.960
is the way it's going to be And if you had done

01:45:19.960 --> 01:45:21.939
that, right, during the course of my career,

01:45:22.159 --> 01:45:24.760
the job has turned over three or four times,

01:45:24.979 --> 01:45:27.500
right? You'd have, you know, you had three or

01:45:27.500 --> 01:45:29.380
four opportunities. And you can actually see

01:45:29.380 --> 01:45:31.300
it coming when you look at the demographics within

01:45:31.300 --> 01:45:33.899
your job. If any, you know, fire department looks

01:45:33.899 --> 01:45:36.640
at where their age is, you know when you're going

01:45:36.640 --> 01:45:39.560
to turn over a lot of people, right? Just from

01:45:39.560 --> 01:45:41.720
their ages. And you can say, okay, here's where

01:45:41.720 --> 01:45:43.539
we want to implement this, right? Because this

01:45:43.539 --> 01:45:44.739
is where we're going to get the biggest bang

01:45:44.739 --> 01:45:46.500
for our buck because we're going to start. turning

01:45:46.500 --> 01:45:48.739
a whole lot of people over and we'll have it

01:45:48.739 --> 01:45:50.819
all done in five years or, you know, mostly done,

01:45:50.920 --> 01:45:54.739
whatever. So it'd be easy to predict when your

01:45:54.739 --> 01:45:57.640
best time is, right? So just do it, you know,

01:45:57.640 --> 01:46:00.359
and you don't even have to take the full giant

01:46:00.359 --> 01:46:02.739
leap right away. You just have to start with,

01:46:02.760 --> 01:46:04.680
you know, some kind of standard. It's actually

01:46:04.680 --> 01:46:09.260
a standard, you know. You know, there's all kinds

01:46:09.260 --> 01:46:12.279
of fire departments that will basically, or I

01:46:12.279 --> 01:46:15.850
should say their administrations. Their municipalities

01:46:15.850 --> 01:46:18.170
will lie to you and say that they have physical

01:46:18.170 --> 01:46:19.710
standards, but they don't. All you have to do

01:46:19.710 --> 01:46:21.569
is look at their rank and file and you see that,

01:46:21.569 --> 01:46:23.470
you know, those people aren't meeting any physical

01:46:23.470 --> 01:46:31.109
standards. So, yeah, that's, I don't know, does

01:46:31.109 --> 01:46:34.130
that answer your question? It's so frustrating,

01:46:34.449 --> 01:46:38.789
you know, and I really think the upside of this,

01:46:38.810 --> 01:46:42.409
perhaps, is that fitness has become a thing again.

01:46:42.939 --> 01:46:45.779
in this country and wellness has become, people

01:46:45.779 --> 01:46:48.319
are genuinely interested in this. There's a younger

01:46:48.319 --> 01:46:50.819
generation that's generally interested. They

01:46:50.819 --> 01:46:53.420
may be misguided in some respects, but that's

01:46:53.420 --> 01:46:55.819
beside the point. They are generally interested

01:46:55.819 --> 01:46:58.380
in how do I maximize my health and well -being,

01:46:58.479 --> 01:47:00.720
right? We're talking about things about not lifespan,

01:47:00.899 --> 01:47:03.699
but healthspan. You hear that more and more frequently,

01:47:03.899 --> 01:47:06.760
right? So now that this has become part of the,

01:47:06.760 --> 01:47:09.960
you know, more. more the broader discussion in

01:47:09.960 --> 01:47:12.239
society this is the time to jump on this stuff

01:47:12.239 --> 01:47:14.979
absolutely i've heard a lot of people you know

01:47:14.979 --> 01:47:17.579
you hear this ignorant statement from lobby oh

01:47:17.579 --> 01:47:19.180
well the problem is you know we have a recruitment

01:47:19.180 --> 01:47:20.859
crisis because kids these days don't want to

01:47:20.859 --> 01:47:24.020
work which is absolute kids these days as you

01:47:24.020 --> 01:47:28.319
said you know are looking at um, the fire service

01:47:28.319 --> 01:47:30.119
for what it really is. Cause when I came on,

01:47:30.159 --> 01:47:31.779
I'm sure it was nothing when you were available,

01:47:31.819 --> 01:47:34.600
but I had the internet, but it was just, you

01:47:34.600 --> 01:47:36.819
know, smoky faces and saving babies was always

01:47:36.819 --> 01:47:38.880
out there and how to ace your interview. That

01:47:38.880 --> 01:47:41.539
was it. So, and it was post nine 11, you know,

01:47:41.560 --> 01:47:44.520
um, that a 49 just came out. It was all guts

01:47:44.520 --> 01:47:46.380
and glory. And, you know, no one was asking,

01:47:46.479 --> 01:47:49.600
well, is this bad for us? Well, now Google it,

01:47:49.680 --> 01:47:51.899
you know, and, and the good news, if you Google

01:47:51.899 --> 01:47:55.579
is a 24 hour, a 24 72, a healthy shift. Now Google

01:47:55.579 --> 01:47:57.460
tells you how great it is, which is amazing.

01:47:57.539 --> 01:47:59.119
That shows you that we've put enough information

01:47:59.119 --> 01:48:02.560
out now. But if you Google is firefighting healthy,

01:48:02.819 --> 01:48:04.979
it will show you all the bad stuff. Now it's

01:48:04.979 --> 01:48:07.100
not negating all the good stuff. This is why,

01:48:07.119 --> 01:48:09.159
you know, we're still talking about it now and

01:48:09.159 --> 01:48:10.779
neither of us are wearing uniform anymore because

01:48:10.779 --> 01:48:13.779
we adore this profession. But we have to, you

01:48:13.779 --> 01:48:16.039
know, address the bad things. So these young

01:48:16.039 --> 01:48:17.979
candidates are looking at that going, well, I

01:48:17.979 --> 01:48:21.140
could be a welder and make a lot of money and

01:48:21.140 --> 01:48:23.109
be home. you know, every night with my family.

01:48:24.050 --> 01:48:28.609
And I can get up and go, I can, with my 10 years

01:48:28.609 --> 01:48:30.670
of welding experience, if I want to get up and

01:48:30.670 --> 01:48:33.350
transport my family across the country, I can

01:48:33.350 --> 01:48:36.689
do that and get a job as a welder with 10 years

01:48:36.689 --> 01:48:38.710
of experience somewhere. That's going to mean

01:48:38.710 --> 01:48:41.329
something to somebody. And in a lot of the fire

01:48:41.329 --> 01:48:44.670
service, that means nothing, right? So that's

01:48:44.670 --> 01:48:46.810
another thing I think that scares guys away.

01:48:46.949 --> 01:48:50.350
We don't have portability. within our profession

01:48:50.350 --> 01:48:52.609
and we need to do something about that it would

01:48:52.609 --> 01:48:56.810
benefit everybody uh a great deal 100 well this

01:48:56.810 --> 01:48:59.550
is what's kind of begun now is because we have

01:48:59.550 --> 01:49:02.310
this 24 72 and people like wow you know i want

01:49:02.310 --> 01:49:04.630
to go for example work in florida they're they're

01:49:04.630 --> 01:49:07.109
not only you know a well -paid department and

01:49:07.109 --> 01:49:09.029
you know a lot of calls but now they've got this

01:49:09.029 --> 01:49:11.869
healthier work week so reciprocity has become

01:49:11.869 --> 01:49:14.149
you know more of a conversation because it is

01:49:14.149 --> 01:49:17.029
it's insane i can As a paramedic, my national

01:49:17.029 --> 01:49:19.029
registry, I can challenge California's test,

01:49:19.170 --> 01:49:20.789
which I actually did. I was trying to go back

01:49:20.789 --> 01:49:24.609
years ago now. And then, all right, I'm a state

01:49:24.609 --> 01:49:27.170
California medic again. But you're telling me

01:49:27.170 --> 01:49:30.390
that the way I pull a cross lay, I have to go

01:49:30.390 --> 01:49:33.390
back to school in Texas to be able to pull it.

01:49:33.489 --> 01:49:36.369
It's insanity when we talk about it. And like

01:49:36.369 --> 01:49:37.989
you said, the arrogance of, well, this is the

01:49:37.989 --> 01:49:41.090
way we do it. Bullshit. If you've been a firefighter

01:49:41.090 --> 01:49:43.229
for 10 years somewhere else, it's a lot of value.

01:49:43.900 --> 01:49:45.840
to the way you did it there. Now, don't walk

01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:47.720
through the door telling us how great your last

01:49:47.720 --> 01:49:50.579
department was the whole time, but there's probably

01:49:50.579 --> 01:49:52.520
a lot of things that you did there that we could

01:49:52.520 --> 01:49:54.979
learn from in our department. So you'd break

01:49:54.979 --> 01:49:57.159
down these silos, I think, if you had a lot more

01:49:57.159 --> 01:50:01.939
reciprocity across the country. Yeah. It would

01:50:01.939 --> 01:50:04.239
help. And I think it would help the recruitment

01:50:04.239 --> 01:50:08.319
issue a great deal if guys knew that there was

01:50:08.319 --> 01:50:13.289
some portability to their job. because I think

01:50:13.289 --> 01:50:15.810
that it's especially for the smaller departments.

01:50:18.989 --> 01:50:22.729
You know, like when I was out in Algonquin, you

01:50:22.729 --> 01:50:24.649
know, we lost a lot of guys that would come on

01:50:24.649 --> 01:50:27.109
because they would take tests, you know, throughout.

01:50:27.569 --> 01:50:30.930
And as soon as a department with better prospects,

01:50:31.170 --> 01:50:33.489
you know, they had an opening, they would move.

01:50:33.710 --> 01:50:36.510
And so I think that's the fear in a lot of departments.

01:50:36.609 --> 01:50:38.850
I'll keep losing people to the bigger departments

01:50:38.850 --> 01:50:41.640
with bigger paychecks and all that. But that's

01:50:41.640 --> 01:50:44.939
not necessarily the case, you know, because if

01:50:44.939 --> 01:50:48.180
we have the reciprocity, then I can go milking

01:50:48.180 --> 01:50:50.819
other departments as well. I don't have to, you

01:50:50.819 --> 01:50:53.380
know, look for guys, give them an entrance exam

01:50:53.380 --> 01:50:56.640
and put them through a recruit school and, you

01:50:56.640 --> 01:50:58.859
know, take some of that away. If I could hire

01:50:58.859 --> 01:51:01.279
guys that have already been trained and certified

01:51:01.279 --> 01:51:03.560
and bring them right on board with, you know,

01:51:03.579 --> 01:51:06.909
a month's worth of orientation or whatever. That

01:51:06.909 --> 01:51:08.590
would benefit everybody. I think we'd all be

01:51:08.590 --> 01:51:11.369
better off. And you could go after the fit firefighters.

01:51:12.710 --> 01:51:15.149
Yeah. Well, that's what I was kind of alluding

01:51:15.149 --> 01:51:17.449
to at the beginning is that with this whole kids

01:51:17.449 --> 01:51:19.130
today don't want to work. Actually, I'm hearing

01:51:19.130 --> 01:51:21.590
that a lot of departments are saying our young

01:51:21.590 --> 01:51:24.649
fit recruits are really fit, fitter than they've

01:51:24.649 --> 01:51:27.239
ever been because they've. grown up in this area

01:51:27.239 --> 01:51:29.979
of crossfit and you know understanding physical

01:51:29.979 --> 01:51:32.579
therapy and and you know sports massage and all

01:51:32.579 --> 01:51:34.680
these things so they're getting great candidates

01:51:34.680 --> 01:51:37.279
and what you were talking about with the the

01:51:37.279 --> 01:51:39.779
lack of retention this is where the money is

01:51:39.779 --> 01:51:42.979
for the 24 72 if you look at the overtime you

01:51:42.979 --> 01:51:45.439
look at the the money lost have you just trained

01:51:45.439 --> 01:51:47.159
and equipped a firefighter and paid into their

01:51:47.159 --> 01:51:49.600
pension and then two years later they left after

01:51:49.600 --> 01:51:51.699
medic school you know that's tens of thousands

01:51:51.699 --> 01:51:54.229
of dollars that just walked out your door So,

01:51:54.329 --> 01:51:56.189
you know, but people look at this like, well,

01:51:56.289 --> 01:51:58.289
now you're trying to take our firefighters. Like,

01:51:58.310 --> 01:52:01.350
no, the rising tide lifts all ships. When I was

01:52:01.350 --> 01:52:05.210
testing 22 years ago in California, it was against

01:52:05.210 --> 01:52:08.630
thousands of people and there were 30 jobs available,

01:52:08.850 --> 01:52:11.970
three zero. That's it. So actually, I kind of

01:52:11.970 --> 01:52:14.710
broke it down because we usually lost 25 percent

01:52:14.710 --> 01:52:16.529
of every higher class through attrition because

01:52:16.529 --> 01:52:19.310
the bar was set so high. I was technically my

01:52:19.310 --> 01:52:21.369
class was technically the top one percent of

01:52:21.369 --> 01:52:24.829
the list. So that's how competitive it was to

01:52:24.829 --> 01:52:27.710
be a firefighter. And that's up until only 10

01:52:27.710 --> 01:52:31.489
-ish years ago. So the money is all being wasted

01:52:31.489 --> 01:52:34.250
downstream. You front load it. You open reciprocity.

01:52:34.329 --> 01:52:36.909
You put in fitness standards. You're going to

01:52:36.909 --> 01:52:39.670
attract the right kind of person that's like,

01:52:39.750 --> 01:52:41.569
oh, you've got a fitness standard? Even better.

01:52:42.170 --> 01:52:47.609
Challenging. They'll self -select, I think. I

01:52:47.609 --> 01:52:49.970
mean, all kinds of industries and professions

01:52:49.970 --> 01:52:52.229
have proven that. You raise your standard, you

01:52:52.229 --> 01:52:55.069
get more and better recruits. Dropping your standards

01:52:55.069 --> 01:52:58.590
doesn't do you any good. Never has. No. Well,

01:52:58.649 --> 01:53:00.430
one more area that I want to get to the transition

01:53:00.430 --> 01:53:04.590
and do some closing questions. You've got a very

01:53:04.590 --> 01:53:07.189
long story career in all these different ranks,

01:53:07.310 --> 01:53:09.130
from firefighter all the way through to chief.

01:53:09.329 --> 01:53:12.789
When you reflect back now... What were some of

01:53:12.789 --> 01:53:15.930
the career calls that you had? And it can be

01:53:15.930 --> 01:53:17.649
obviously, you know, some of the big fires, but

01:53:17.649 --> 01:53:19.449
also it might just be moments of kindness and

01:53:19.449 --> 01:53:26.550
compassion that you remember. You know, it's

01:53:26.550 --> 01:53:28.729
funny that the two that always come to mind first,

01:53:28.850 --> 01:53:32.750
and it's actually three, were EMS calls. And

01:53:32.750 --> 01:53:35.369
one was just a really good save on like a 13

01:53:35.369 --> 01:53:41.140
-year -old autistic kid. that which is all you

01:53:41.140 --> 01:53:42.960
know we find out later right but a kid with a

01:53:42.960 --> 01:53:46.199
lot of physical and uh mental disabilities that

01:53:46.199 --> 01:53:49.840
was an arrest right and and we had to save which

01:53:49.840 --> 01:53:53.180
um you don't see so very often especially back

01:53:53.180 --> 01:53:57.760
then um and uh and it just it just was one of

01:53:57.760 --> 01:54:00.239
those you know you were certain it was just going

01:54:00.239 --> 01:54:03.020
to go to be bad all the way around the parents

01:54:03.020 --> 01:54:05.439
are right there to you know it was just This

01:54:05.439 --> 01:54:07.960
is just going to be another one of these. And

01:54:07.960 --> 01:54:10.100
it wasn't another one of those. It was just the

01:54:10.100 --> 01:54:13.420
outcome. And the response of the family afterwards

01:54:13.420 --> 01:54:16.079
to the firefighters that worked the call and

01:54:16.079 --> 01:54:18.380
all that was as appropriate as it could possibly

01:54:18.380 --> 01:54:22.939
be. And I just don't ever forget that one. It

01:54:22.939 --> 01:54:25.760
was 20 years ago or more. I'll never forget that.

01:54:26.380 --> 01:54:29.000
And the other one is very similar to that, but

01:54:29.000 --> 01:54:33.420
on the flip side, one of the most tragic. I had

01:54:33.420 --> 01:54:37.770
two crib deaths. within a week of each other.

01:54:38.409 --> 01:54:41.750
And it was almost like deja vu. The second one

01:54:41.750 --> 01:54:45.329
was almost like step -by -step identical to the

01:54:45.329 --> 01:54:47.770
first one. Same neighborhood, same kind of apartment,

01:54:47.970 --> 01:54:51.289
basement apartment, Hispanic families, you know,

01:54:51.310 --> 01:54:57.329
it was just eerie how close they were. And in

01:54:57.329 --> 01:55:00.069
both of those cases, in one case, the difference

01:55:00.069 --> 01:55:03.289
was in one case, the kid might've been liable.

01:55:03.739 --> 01:55:05.199
And the other one, the kid was already stiff.

01:55:05.380 --> 01:55:07.720
So, you know, it was just like one of those,

01:55:07.819 --> 01:55:09.359
you know, and it's help, you help, you help my

01:55:09.359 --> 01:55:11.340
baby can do something. And it's, you know, you're

01:55:11.340 --> 01:55:14.500
holding this stiff, you know, body and you're

01:55:14.500 --> 01:55:18.800
like, oh, God. And those are those kind of things

01:55:18.800 --> 01:55:21.939
that just never leave you, right? And so I tell

01:55:21.939 --> 01:55:24.159
that story. I'm still working that one out, right?

01:55:24.359 --> 01:55:26.100
Obviously, because I bring it up all the time.

01:55:26.600 --> 01:55:28.819
But I bring it up as the example of, because

01:55:28.819 --> 01:55:32.109
I tell, especially if I'm addressing. recruits

01:55:32.109 --> 01:55:35.510
or young firefighters is don't let anybody ever

01:55:35.510 --> 01:55:37.609
tell you that you'll get used to it or that it

01:55:37.609 --> 01:55:39.609
gets easier because it doesn't. It gets worse.

01:55:39.829 --> 01:55:41.949
It doesn't get better. It doesn't get easier.

01:55:42.029 --> 01:55:44.050
It gets worse because they accumulate. They pile

01:55:44.050 --> 01:55:47.109
on top of one another. And that's how this job

01:55:47.109 --> 01:55:51.750
is going to kill you. And you think that if you

01:55:51.750 --> 01:55:54.680
die in this job, you're going to die some. dramatic

01:55:54.680 --> 01:55:56.760
heroic death, but you're not. The job is going

01:55:56.760 --> 01:55:59.779
to kill you. You're going to be retired or on

01:55:59.779 --> 01:56:02.659
disability or whatever at home alone, whatever,

01:56:02.859 --> 01:56:05.460
and die of suicide or a heart attack or a stroke.

01:56:05.960 --> 01:56:08.819
That's how the job is going to kill you. And

01:56:08.819 --> 01:56:11.720
it's these incidents, these cumulative things

01:56:11.720 --> 01:56:14.500
that you don't pay enough attention to that are

01:56:14.500 --> 01:56:18.539
going to do it. And that's why those stuck with

01:56:18.539 --> 01:56:21.220
me because especially the crib death ones came

01:56:21.220 --> 01:56:24.550
about at about the same time. that i'm hitting

01:56:24.550 --> 01:56:26.789
my stride with the whole ul thing and the teacher

01:56:26.789 --> 01:56:28.710
i was doing a lot of teaching and a lot of you

01:56:28.710 --> 01:56:30.729
know presenting and stuff like that so i had

01:56:30.729 --> 01:56:33.670
fortunately had this opportunity to talk about

01:56:33.670 --> 01:56:37.869
it a lot and process through it but that's when

01:56:37.869 --> 01:56:39.890
a lot of that stuff really hit home for me is

01:56:39.890 --> 01:56:43.569
that those it's those incidents that don't um

01:56:43.569 --> 01:56:46.649
the other one that comes to mind and this is

01:56:46.649 --> 01:56:52.020
um not so much incidents but uh a guy that i

01:56:52.020 --> 01:56:54.079
knew pretty well i can't say he was a good friend

01:56:54.079 --> 01:56:55.779
of mine but i knew him pretty well on the job

01:56:55.779 --> 01:57:01.020
committed suicide right before i left um and

01:57:01.020 --> 01:57:03.220
so we're talking about this you know amongst

01:57:03.220 --> 01:57:06.520
the group around us uh you know at the office

01:57:06.520 --> 01:57:11.770
and um Anyway, it came about that in the last,

01:57:11.869 --> 01:57:14.270
I think it was the last two years or whatever,

01:57:14.489 --> 01:57:17.529
from this guy, you know, seven guys that we knew,

01:57:17.670 --> 01:57:19.449
anyway, seven guys that we all knew pretty well

01:57:19.449 --> 01:57:22.210
had killed themselves in this short period of

01:57:22.210 --> 01:57:24.909
time, right, that we knew of, right? This isn't

01:57:24.909 --> 01:57:28.170
even counting the ones that are ambiguous. But

01:57:28.170 --> 01:57:30.909
these were, you know, active members that killed

01:57:30.909 --> 01:57:33.609
themselves in a two -year period, seven guys.

01:57:35.109 --> 01:57:37.489
And that, again, was one of those, oh, my God,

01:57:37.510 --> 01:57:39.239
what are we missing here? You know, how can this

01:57:39.239 --> 01:57:45.819
be that this is going on like this? So those

01:57:45.819 --> 01:57:50.619
are the things, those are the things that stick,

01:57:50.760 --> 01:57:53.119
right? To me, there's, and I could come up with

01:57:53.119 --> 01:57:59.319
a couple other success ones that, you know, you've

01:57:59.319 --> 01:58:02.779
got to grab. First off, I think that the lesson

01:58:02.779 --> 01:58:05.020
is that you've got to understand the impact that

01:58:05.020 --> 01:58:07.279
these things are having on you throughout your

01:58:07.279 --> 01:58:10.640
career. dismissing they're going to accumulate

01:58:10.640 --> 01:58:14.960
right it's it's one and i know i'm bouncing all

01:58:14.960 --> 01:58:16.659
over the place here but this whole idea of post

01:58:16.659 --> 01:58:20.359
-traumatic stress disorder right uh you're all

01:58:20.359 --> 01:58:22.960
going to have we are all going to have post -traumatic

01:58:22.960 --> 01:58:26.220
stress whether or not it turns into a disorder

01:58:26.220 --> 01:58:29.399
is in a large degree up to us what do we do with

01:58:29.399 --> 01:58:32.319
that post -traumatic stress and and i don't think

01:58:32.319 --> 01:58:34.039
that we're good enough yet at telling the fire

01:58:34.039 --> 01:58:36.100
service is part of what you have to train and

01:58:36.100 --> 01:58:37.819
educate your people about is you're going to

01:58:37.819 --> 01:58:39.659
have this this is going to happen to you you're

01:58:39.659 --> 01:58:42.000
going to have this traumatic stress that you're

01:58:42.000 --> 01:58:45.119
going to have to deal with so start now don't

01:58:45.119 --> 01:58:47.140
wait for it to turn into a disorder because then

01:58:47.140 --> 01:58:50.220
it becomes problematic right you can live with

01:58:50.220 --> 01:58:52.600
post -traumatic stress living with the disorder

01:58:52.600 --> 01:58:59.579
is a little bit different thing So I wish I had

01:58:59.579 --> 01:59:01.859
learned that lesson a little bit sooner. So that's,

01:59:01.859 --> 01:59:03.880
you know, obviously that wasn't something that

01:59:03.880 --> 01:59:09.619
we paid much attention to during most of my career.

01:59:11.119 --> 01:59:16.960
But then the saving grace, I think, of the career

01:59:16.960 --> 01:59:22.600
was that, and I'm going to forget names and locations

01:59:22.600 --> 01:59:26.220
until I start on one, and then I might. But there

01:59:26.220 --> 01:59:30.739
are places that I worked in Chicago. And even

01:59:30.739 --> 01:59:35.000
in Algonquin, there was one. A guy who, you know,

01:59:35.020 --> 01:59:38.800
where the firefighters had saved his great -grandfather

01:59:38.800 --> 01:59:41.479
or something like that, right? And he still came

01:59:41.479 --> 01:59:43.260
by the family. Somebody from the family still

01:59:43.260 --> 01:59:46.159
came by the firehouse every year on the anniversary

01:59:46.159 --> 01:59:49.439
to bring a cake and whatever like that. And I

01:59:49.439 --> 01:59:51.600
had a couple of those experiences in Chicago,

01:59:51.760 --> 01:59:55.420
too. One was up at Engine 108. where I was never

01:59:55.420 --> 01:59:57.420
assigned, but I believed in that area for a while

01:59:57.420 --> 01:59:59.880
and I experienced it there. And another one was

01:59:59.880 --> 02:00:02.699
at Engine 23 where I did work. I was the captain

02:00:02.699 --> 02:00:05.939
there. And a family where, you know, we had done

02:00:05.939 --> 02:00:08.619
something for them decades ago, but they still

02:00:08.619 --> 02:00:11.119
came by on a regular basis to thank the firefighters.

02:00:11.340 --> 02:00:14.119
And those sort of things really stick. I'm not

02:00:14.119 --> 02:00:16.699
really good at remembering incidents. I really

02:00:16.699 --> 02:00:19.239
am terrible about that kind of stuff. What's

02:00:19.239 --> 02:00:20.859
the worst fire you ever went to? I don't know.

02:00:23.180 --> 02:00:25.439
probably the first one and the last one, I don't

02:00:25.439 --> 02:00:28.880
know. But those sort of, those personal, you

02:00:28.880 --> 02:00:35.300
know, especially when there was family, and another

02:00:35.300 --> 02:00:37.880
one that sticks, and this is almost going to

02:00:37.880 --> 02:00:44.399
be stupid, but, so I'm out on the west side,

02:00:44.520 --> 02:00:48.840
battalion chief, 14th battalion, and a neighbor

02:00:48.840 --> 02:00:52.220
of mine where I'm living, It works for Coca -Cola

02:00:52.220 --> 02:00:55.079
or something. They're having some kind of raffle

02:00:55.079 --> 02:00:58.140
through his job, right? Where they, you know,

02:00:58.140 --> 02:00:59.699
silent raffle or something like that. And he

02:00:59.699 --> 02:01:01.920
wants to, I don't know where he heard about this,

02:01:02.079 --> 02:01:04.319
but he wants to raffle off dinner at the firehouse

02:01:04.319 --> 02:01:07.420
as part of the raffle. And he's, you know, he

02:01:07.420 --> 02:01:09.819
knows me and he doesn't know any other firefighter.

02:01:09.880 --> 02:01:12.520
And I don't, I was like, yeah, fine. I don't

02:01:12.520 --> 02:01:15.640
care. You know, we'll do that. We have people

02:01:15.640 --> 02:01:18.510
over all the time. I talked to. guys at the firehouse

02:01:18.510 --> 02:01:21.670
first and yeah yeah that's cool whatever uh anyway

02:01:21.670 --> 02:01:26.170
some whoever wins it they you know two families

02:01:26.170 --> 02:01:30.750
came and these guys at uh engine 38's house they

02:01:30.750 --> 02:01:33.449
made pizza uh once a week usually on saturdays

02:01:33.449 --> 02:01:35.750
they you know from scratch though the whole nine

02:01:35.750 --> 02:01:39.210
yards right and it'd be literally the whole show

02:01:39.210 --> 02:01:42.949
with everybody covered in flour but they make

02:01:42.949 --> 02:01:45.920
a week's worth of pizza anyway We get these families

02:01:45.920 --> 02:01:47.699
to come in with their kids, and they're all at

02:01:47.699 --> 02:01:50.640
the perfect age, you know, 10 through 14 or whatever.

02:01:51.739 --> 02:01:54.300
And they're all making the pizza with the firefighters,

02:01:54.640 --> 02:01:58.819
right? And just couldn't have had a better time.

02:01:59.020 --> 02:02:02.479
Nobody ever met. You know, they had no clue.

02:02:02.520 --> 02:02:04.199
They weren't even from the city. They had just

02:02:04.199 --> 02:02:07.760
won this silly thing. But that just, for me,

02:02:07.819 --> 02:02:10.739
personified this whole, you know, when we talk

02:02:10.739 --> 02:02:12.479
about service to the community and what this

02:02:12.479 --> 02:02:14.939
is supposed to mean and all that. that was the

02:02:14.939 --> 02:02:16.960
personification of it. Cause this was, I mean,

02:02:16.979 --> 02:02:21.020
this is West side ghetto. Um, you know, these

02:02:21.020 --> 02:02:23.340
are not the firefighters you would expect, uh,

02:02:23.539 --> 02:02:26.960
you know, from the stereotype or the firehouse

02:02:26.960 --> 02:02:29.000
where you would expect this to, to take place

02:02:29.000 --> 02:02:31.739
from the stereotypes, but, but there it was and

02:02:31.739 --> 02:02:35.699
they were all having a blast. Uh, and yeah, it

02:02:35.699 --> 02:02:38.859
was great. It was fun to watch. I wrote in actually

02:02:38.859 --> 02:02:42.220
in both of my books, um, about the back to bed

02:02:42.220 --> 02:02:44.340
calls. And I've always said when people ask me,

02:02:44.439 --> 02:02:46.300
you know, what are some of the highlights of

02:02:46.300 --> 02:02:50.100
your career? Sometimes it was just a truck company

02:02:50.100 --> 02:02:53.000
going to, you know, an elderly couple. The wife,

02:02:53.020 --> 02:02:55.260
for example, has fallen out the bed. Maybe she

02:02:55.260 --> 02:02:58.039
soiled herself. And you've got this man that

02:02:58.039 --> 02:03:01.170
was probably very strong and able. now just crushed

02:03:01.170 --> 02:03:03.289
because he's unable to pick the love of his life

02:03:03.289 --> 02:03:05.590
off the floor and put her back to bed yeah so

02:03:05.590 --> 02:03:08.109
the four of us go there we clean her up we put

02:03:08.109 --> 02:03:10.329
her in fresh clothes we put her back to bed we

02:03:10.329 --> 02:03:12.529
obviously check her medically and then we go

02:03:12.529 --> 02:03:15.579
back to the station But you don't see that again

02:03:15.579 --> 02:03:17.380
as we were talking, that projection of, well,

02:03:17.380 --> 02:03:20.720
I'm an American hero firefighter, that it is

02:03:20.720 --> 02:03:23.119
that kindness and compassion. That's tradition

02:03:23.119 --> 02:03:25.399
in the fire service. And I always look back and

02:03:25.399 --> 02:03:28.220
like, yeah, of course, cutting a roof four stories

02:03:28.220 --> 02:03:31.439
up after being awake for all of four minutes

02:03:31.439 --> 02:03:34.260
before. Yeah, that's pretty good. Go on interior

02:03:34.260 --> 02:03:37.380
on a barn burner. Yeah, absolutely. But it's

02:03:37.380 --> 02:03:39.460
those moments of kindness and compassion that

02:03:39.460 --> 02:03:41.340
always stuck out with me. And I think that sometimes.

02:03:42.079 --> 02:03:43.979
We forget that when we're talking about what

02:03:43.979 --> 02:03:45.760
we do. It's always, like you said, you know,

02:03:45.760 --> 02:03:48.560
duck walking and S -patterns. But what about

02:03:48.560 --> 02:03:50.819
just simply putting someone back to bed? That's

02:03:50.819 --> 02:03:58.180
as if not more important. Oh, absolutely. And,

02:03:58.359 --> 02:04:02.300
you know, we had one, you know, we'll probably

02:04:02.300 --> 02:04:04.840
do that. We can do this all day now. We'll remember.

02:04:05.020 --> 02:04:07.880
We'll each remember one. And this is probably

02:04:07.880 --> 02:04:09.939
not all that unique, but the guys in Algonquin,

02:04:09.979 --> 02:04:12.060
they go, they had a heart attack. Someone had

02:04:12.060 --> 02:04:17.279
a heart attack cutting his grass. They went back

02:04:17.279 --> 02:04:19.199
and finished the lawn after they got him to the

02:04:19.199 --> 02:04:20.939
hospital. They, you know, went back and cut the

02:04:20.939 --> 02:04:22.539
rest of the grass and cleaned everything up and

02:04:22.539 --> 02:04:25.399
put everything away and, you know, that sort

02:04:25.399 --> 02:04:32.300
of stuff. And, you know, anybody really can work

02:04:32.300 --> 02:04:35.210
a code. I mean, there's thousands and thousands

02:04:35.210 --> 02:04:37.189
and thousands of people that can work a code.

02:04:38.369 --> 02:04:40.930
Not everybody has the presence of mind to do

02:04:40.930 --> 02:04:44.250
something like that spontaneously. And firefighters

02:04:44.250 --> 02:04:49.829
do that. Not too many other people. And if we

02:04:49.829 --> 02:04:51.750
don't tell those stories, then we don't make

02:04:51.750 --> 02:04:54.590
that part of who and what we are, and the tradition

02:04:54.590 --> 02:04:57.270
won't continue. So I think that's why I like

02:04:57.270 --> 02:04:59.590
to tell those kinds of stories, because that's

02:04:59.590 --> 02:05:02.250
how you make sure that it happens again, is you

02:05:02.250 --> 02:05:06.279
tell the story. 100%. Well, you alluded to some

02:05:06.279 --> 02:05:08.539
of the calls that, you know, that do haunt you.

02:05:08.579 --> 02:05:10.880
And the PD calls are definitely some of the worst

02:05:10.880 --> 02:05:14.079
ones in my mind, too. When you reflect back now,

02:05:14.359 --> 02:05:17.479
what, if any, were the darkest places that you

02:05:17.479 --> 02:05:20.060
got to? And then what are some of the tools you've

02:05:20.060 --> 02:05:22.460
used to get yourself back into a good mental

02:05:22.460 --> 02:05:31.739
state again? So, strange as this may seem, the

02:05:31.739 --> 02:05:38.159
worst. came for me at the very end of my career

02:05:38.159 --> 02:05:40.939
when I was fire chief and I had to fire people.

02:05:42.359 --> 02:05:47.880
You know, I was never in a position that, you

02:05:47.880 --> 02:05:50.140
know, you actually had that responsibility, right?

02:05:51.439 --> 02:05:55.939
And I had to let some people go. And so that

02:05:55.939 --> 02:06:00.409
was hard, right? And to this day, I don't. You

02:06:00.409 --> 02:06:02.649
wonder about some of them and one in particular.

02:06:03.909 --> 02:06:08.869
So Josh was a firefighter paramedic with us and

02:06:08.869 --> 02:06:12.170
try to do the short version of the story because

02:06:12.170 --> 02:06:16.149
it can get kind of long. But anyway, I get a

02:06:16.149 --> 02:06:19.909
visit from a cop that says we need to interview

02:06:19.909 --> 02:06:22.750
this guy. And he says he works a side job at

02:06:22.750 --> 02:06:24.350
a hospital in the emergency room and they're

02:06:24.350 --> 02:06:26.329
missing some drugs at the emergency room. So

02:06:26.329 --> 02:06:29.609
we're talking to everybody that works there.

02:06:29.920 --> 02:06:32.979
So I got to talk to your guy. Okay, fine. So

02:06:32.979 --> 02:06:36.079
we talked to the guy. Nothing happens. I don't

02:06:36.079 --> 02:06:37.859
hear anything about it. And Josh comes to me

02:06:37.859 --> 02:06:39.399
afterwards and said, I swear to God, not me,

02:06:39.460 --> 02:06:40.840
nothing to do. I'm not even going to work there

02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:42.579
anymore. That place is crazy, blah, blah, blah.

02:06:42.680 --> 02:06:45.640
He leaves. And he does. He quits working there.

02:06:45.979 --> 02:06:48.199
He eventually goes to work at some other hospital.

02:06:48.479 --> 02:06:51.060
Anyway, they wind up missing drugs. They got

02:06:51.060 --> 02:06:55.000
him on film, right? So within a year, this all

02:06:55.000 --> 02:06:59.579
happens. And then they revoke his license, or

02:06:59.579 --> 02:07:02.640
suspend his license. Once they suspend his license,

02:07:02.859 --> 02:07:05.979
by law, I can't employ him anymore. That's the

02:07:05.979 --> 02:07:09.680
way it worked in that part of the world. So I

02:07:09.680 --> 02:07:14.920
start having to process his dismissal. Now, the

02:07:14.920 --> 02:07:19.939
first thing we did, and this was one of the silver

02:07:19.939 --> 02:07:23.159
linings, so to speak. But in the process of this,

02:07:23.260 --> 02:07:28.550
before I found out that... I found out that they

02:07:28.550 --> 02:07:30.869
caught him the second time from the union president

02:07:30.869 --> 02:07:35.010
who called me and trusted me enough to call me

02:07:35.010 --> 02:07:40.430
and said, what can we do for this guy? And I

02:07:40.430 --> 02:07:42.409
said, well, what you got to do is you got to

02:07:42.409 --> 02:07:45.890
get him in a resident program. And then at least

02:07:45.890 --> 02:07:48.229
for 30 days, I can't touch him. Nothing I can

02:07:48.229 --> 02:07:51.010
do. He's in a resident program that buys you

02:07:51.010 --> 02:07:54.289
30 days to figure out what to do next, which

02:07:54.289 --> 02:07:56.699
he did. I helped him find him. program they could

02:07:56.699 --> 02:07:58.880
get him and so we did we were able to do that

02:07:58.880 --> 02:08:02.520
for him and he did get clean for a while but

02:08:02.520 --> 02:08:05.439
the what makes this story a story i got to tell

02:08:05.439 --> 02:08:08.300
is that josh killed himself eventually or od

02:08:08.300 --> 02:08:12.220
one of the two not really sure which it was but

02:08:12.220 --> 02:08:14.359
he didn't win right the drugs one the fentanyl

02:08:14.359 --> 02:08:19.159
one and so that having made that decision and

02:08:19.159 --> 02:08:21.579
living with that decision is the hardest thing

02:08:21.579 --> 02:08:30.539
i ever did So, because you're, you know, you're

02:08:30.539 --> 02:08:32.180
always, you're always, you know, well, what if

02:08:32.180 --> 02:08:34.140
I hadn't fired him? What if I had, you know,

02:08:34.180 --> 02:08:36.479
given him a second chance? You know, there's

02:08:36.479 --> 02:08:40.479
all the what ifs, what ifs, you know. And intellectually,

02:08:40.760 --> 02:08:43.640
I know that I'm okay. You know, that that was,

02:08:43.659 --> 02:08:45.800
that I was within my bounds and I was doing what

02:08:45.800 --> 02:08:48.119
I had to do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:08:48.800 --> 02:08:50.720
But I still fired the guy and he still killed

02:08:50.720 --> 02:08:55.090
himself. that don't go away. And you can't expect

02:08:55.090 --> 02:08:57.489
it to, right? You have to just find a place to

02:08:57.489 --> 02:09:01.829
put it and manage it. How long had Josh worked

02:09:01.829 --> 02:09:05.869
in the fire service? He was probably, I would

02:09:05.869 --> 02:09:09.270
say 10 years, maybe. He was a vet. He had spent

02:09:09.270 --> 02:09:12.289
a little bit of time in the Air Force, I think

02:09:12.289 --> 02:09:16.470
it was. Had done some tours. He was still in

02:09:16.470 --> 02:09:19.630
the reserves, so he would still do his reserve

02:09:19.630 --> 02:09:23.319
work. One of the things that we found is, after

02:09:23.319 --> 02:09:27.460
all this, right, to the family, was that he had

02:09:27.460 --> 02:09:30.180
struggled with this from the time he was a teenager,

02:09:30.399 --> 02:09:34.079
right? The combination of depression slash drugs,

02:09:34.119 --> 02:09:35.960
you know, and the details I never got, but they

02:09:35.960 --> 02:09:38.979
did come and say, you know, he's been fighting

02:09:38.979 --> 02:09:41.439
this demon since he was a teenager. So we knew

02:09:41.439 --> 02:09:45.239
that it wasn't, you know, just a recent sort

02:09:45.239 --> 02:09:49.310
of thing. And in a way, that made me feel a little

02:09:49.310 --> 02:09:55.329
better. This was a lifelong struggle that we

02:09:55.329 --> 02:09:57.170
got tied up. It wasn't something that happened

02:09:57.170 --> 02:10:01.630
just because of the job or the military service.

02:10:03.409 --> 02:10:06.569
This is a conversation I've had a lot more recently.

02:10:07.409 --> 02:10:09.729
I've been a student now for nine years, listening

02:10:09.729 --> 02:10:14.130
to so many lived stories and experts. But when

02:10:14.130 --> 02:10:16.880
you look at it, Most of us that joined the fire

02:10:16.880 --> 02:10:18.840
service have had some things happen when we were

02:10:18.840 --> 02:10:23.159
younger that drove us into this profession that

02:10:23.159 --> 02:10:24.939
we wanted to serve. We wanted to be there on

02:10:24.939 --> 02:10:26.819
people's worst day. We didn't want people to

02:10:26.819 --> 02:10:28.399
feel the way that we felt when we were younger,

02:10:28.439 --> 02:10:31.579
whatever the subconscious things are. And so

02:10:31.579 --> 02:10:34.460
having that conversation at the front door, acknowledging

02:10:34.460 --> 02:10:36.880
that and saying, look, if you've towed the line

02:10:36.880 --> 02:10:39.260
here. there's a good chance that you've been

02:10:39.260 --> 02:10:41.579
through some shit in you know before this and

02:10:41.579 --> 02:10:44.140
that's okay but if we bury it down and don't

02:10:44.140 --> 02:10:46.020
talk about it that becomes a fracture to your

02:10:46.020 --> 02:10:48.220
foundation or an addiction that we didn't see

02:10:48.220 --> 02:10:50.199
and that's still going on i lost a classmate

02:10:50.199 --> 02:10:52.539
at my last department to an opioid overdose same

02:10:52.539 --> 02:10:55.680
exact thing but if we have that conversation

02:10:55.680 --> 02:10:58.890
same but if we address it If we talk about it

02:10:58.890 --> 02:11:00.710
the same way as we're going to PT you for the

02:11:00.710 --> 02:11:03.189
next X amount of weeks and we're going to test

02:11:03.189 --> 02:11:05.069
you for the next year on probation on all your

02:11:05.069 --> 02:11:08.149
operational skills, we're going to have X amount

02:11:08.149 --> 02:11:10.949
of therapy sessions and we're going to turn some

02:11:10.949 --> 02:11:13.630
of those struggles into strengths. I think we

02:11:13.630 --> 02:11:16.149
would make such a huge dent coupled with obviously

02:11:16.149 --> 02:11:18.869
rest and recovery in this mental health side

02:11:18.869 --> 02:11:21.029
because, yeah, the reason why you put the uniform

02:11:21.029 --> 02:11:24.010
on, there's a high, high chance that you're carrying

02:11:24.010 --> 02:11:26.479
some stuff in. And so we don't go, oh, well,

02:11:26.600 --> 02:11:27.920
that's where he was an addict when he was young.

02:11:27.960 --> 02:11:30.439
So that's why I did it. No, you're the responsibility

02:11:30.439 --> 02:11:33.699
of us now as a profession, you know, so how do

02:11:33.699 --> 02:11:36.680
we mitigate whatever we brought in the front

02:11:36.680 --> 02:11:39.520
door and create that post -traumatic growth and

02:11:39.520 --> 02:11:41.779
help them overcome, you know, whatever it is

02:11:41.779 --> 02:11:43.180
they're struggling with. Because now as we sit

02:11:43.180 --> 02:11:46.260
here in 2025, you know, Ibogaine, Ayahuasca,

02:11:46.340 --> 02:11:49.220
even if other talk therapy hadn't worked, we

02:11:49.220 --> 02:11:52.289
have plant medicine options that are. and making,

02:11:52.310 --> 02:11:54.949
you know, incredible successes in the addiction

02:11:54.949 --> 02:11:58.510
world now. So I think this is, you know, the

02:11:58.510 --> 02:12:01.329
moral injury that you have with Josh and that

02:12:01.329 --> 02:12:03.329
feeling of, you know, not being able to do enough

02:12:03.329 --> 02:12:05.930
or was that a ripple effect that caused him to

02:12:05.930 --> 02:12:08.890
take his life or overdose? Turning that around

02:12:08.890 --> 02:12:10.850
because we didn't know about that stuff back

02:12:10.850 --> 02:12:12.630
then. We couldn't have these conversations, but

02:12:12.630 --> 02:12:14.789
we can today. And just like we were talking about

02:12:14.789 --> 02:12:17.710
the resistance to innovation, the fire service,

02:12:17.869 --> 02:12:21.210
you know, EMS, law enforcement. We need to look

02:12:21.210 --> 02:12:23.770
at this and go, you're standing in front of me

02:12:23.770 --> 02:12:25.569
and there's probably a good chance that you've

02:12:25.569 --> 02:12:28.710
had X. So let's start working through that now

02:12:28.710 --> 02:12:30.970
because then you become stronger. You become

02:12:30.970 --> 02:12:33.189
more empathetic. You'll be able to relate to

02:12:33.189 --> 02:12:34.789
people on the street because you were there.

02:12:34.869 --> 02:12:38.069
You were an addict. You did grow up around domestic

02:12:38.069 --> 02:12:40.789
violence, whatever it is. But if we push it down

02:12:40.789 --> 02:12:43.449
and ignore it and just box check some psych test

02:12:43.449 --> 02:12:46.010
at the front door. We're never going to address

02:12:46.010 --> 02:12:49.170
these things. So I think Josh's story is an opportunity

02:12:49.170 --> 02:12:51.409
to really have these conversations of how can

02:12:51.409 --> 02:12:56.409
we do it better this next generation. Yeah. I

02:12:56.409 --> 02:13:00.569
think we need to, in some respects, you need

02:13:00.569 --> 02:13:05.029
to start with we're all damaged goods. Just start

02:13:05.029 --> 02:13:07.449
with that assumption. Okay, look, we're all damaged

02:13:07.449 --> 02:13:14.560
goods. Identify where you were hurt and what

02:13:14.560 --> 02:13:16.979
we need to pay attention to so we can do it right

02:13:16.979 --> 02:13:20.960
from the beginning and make sure we're not contributing

02:13:20.960 --> 02:13:26.399
to the issue. Because all these things are going

02:13:26.399 --> 02:13:29.779
to happen. The stuff that happens on the job

02:13:29.779 --> 02:13:31.920
is going to happen. There's no preventing any

02:13:31.920 --> 02:13:37.840
of that. The one that always rubbed me the wrong

02:13:37.840 --> 02:13:39.619
way was the don't worry, you'll get used to it,

02:13:39.659 --> 02:13:44.359
kid. That's the wrong answer. Yeah. At least

02:13:44.359 --> 02:13:47.039
I never got used to it. I had an interesting

02:13:47.039 --> 02:13:49.420
thing happen about two years ago now. I was on

02:13:49.420 --> 02:13:51.380
a flight back from England. I've been taking

02:13:51.380 --> 02:13:54.560
care of my dad after knee surgery. And we're

02:13:54.560 --> 02:13:56.619
on the tarmac. Doors are closed. We're about

02:13:56.619 --> 02:13:59.819
to push off. And I've got those noise -canceling

02:13:59.819 --> 02:14:01.699
headphones on. And I'm looking forward. And it's

02:14:01.699 --> 02:14:06.039
a 747, so whatever it is, 10 seats wide. And

02:14:06.039 --> 02:14:08.119
I see commotion in front of me. People are looking

02:14:08.119 --> 02:14:10.920
behind. So I pull the headphones off and look

02:14:10.920 --> 02:14:12.920
back. And one of the passengers, the last guy

02:14:12.920 --> 02:14:15.319
that came on, basically just keeled over in the

02:14:15.319 --> 02:14:18.659
aisle. And I always kind of joke because you

02:14:18.659 --> 02:14:21.000
hear these stories. Well, there were 10 cardiologists

02:14:21.000 --> 02:14:23.420
on the way back from a convention. No, not on

02:14:23.420 --> 02:14:25.560
this flight. I was the only one that had any

02:14:25.560 --> 02:14:27.239
kind of emergency medicine experience. And there

02:14:27.239 --> 02:14:29.340
was some good Samaritans all around. The cabin

02:14:29.340 --> 02:14:32.520
crew were phenomenal. But as far as a team of

02:14:32.520 --> 02:14:34.140
medics, for example, that could work together

02:14:34.140 --> 02:14:37.270
or ER physicians, there was none of that. End

02:14:37.270 --> 02:14:39.630
up working the code. Very long story short, it

02:14:39.630 --> 02:14:43.289
goes on. The fire come originally. Then the London

02:14:43.289 --> 02:14:45.369
paramedics come on, and I'm working them in the

02:14:45.369 --> 02:14:48.470
galley now. And then finally, I said, look, you

02:14:48.470 --> 02:14:50.829
guys good? I'm going to get out of the way so

02:14:50.829 --> 02:14:54.310
that you can work. Go to the toilet on the plane,

02:14:54.529 --> 02:14:56.369
wash the blood off my hands, and then go sit

02:14:56.369 --> 02:14:58.850
down. Very different than if I'd run a call with

02:14:58.850 --> 02:15:02.109
my crew. and it kind of hit me and i was like

02:15:02.109 --> 02:15:05.149
why why do i feel so weird after 14 years of

02:15:05.149 --> 02:15:07.210
doing codes and you know hundreds and hundreds

02:15:07.210 --> 02:15:09.770
of people and i was a zero code save guy so everyone

02:15:09.770 --> 02:15:12.289
fucking died when when i was working the code

02:15:12.289 --> 02:15:15.989
but what i realized after is like oh shit this

02:15:15.989 --> 02:15:19.829
is how you're supposed to feel when someone dies

02:15:19.829 --> 02:15:22.010
and you realize so it's not that you get used

02:15:22.010 --> 02:15:25.630
to it you just push it down you just ignore all

02:15:25.630 --> 02:15:28.439
those feelings but they're still in there So

02:15:28.439 --> 02:15:30.680
now I think that was five years after taking

02:15:30.680 --> 02:15:32.680
the uniform off. I'm working this code. I sit

02:15:32.680 --> 02:15:35.479
down. There's no off gassing. No one else around

02:15:35.479 --> 02:15:37.319
can really relate like we would in the back of

02:15:37.319 --> 02:15:41.220
a rescue or an ER desk. And yeah, and it was

02:15:41.220 --> 02:15:43.819
so jarring. And, you know, I was able to talk

02:15:43.819 --> 02:15:46.159
to the cabin crew and kind of help them kind

02:15:46.159 --> 02:15:48.939
of debrief a little bit. And it was great. But

02:15:48.939 --> 02:15:52.399
for the first time, I realized that this is how

02:15:52.399 --> 02:15:54.720
it's supposed to feel when someone dies in front

02:15:54.720 --> 02:15:57.609
of you. But we do get so. And we don't get used

02:15:57.609 --> 02:16:00.130
to it. Like you said, we become numb to it. Those

02:16:00.130 --> 02:16:03.909
are two very, very different things. Yep. Yep.

02:16:05.750 --> 02:16:07.810
All right. Well, I want to kind of round off.

02:16:07.949 --> 02:16:11.770
So just before we go to the closing questions,

02:16:12.029 --> 02:16:14.550
what was it that made you finally pull the trigger

02:16:14.550 --> 02:16:18.229
to transition out? And we know that a lot of

02:16:18.229 --> 02:16:21.039
our men and women do struggle. when they transition,

02:16:21.500 --> 02:16:23.279
you know, that loss of tribe, purpose, identity,

02:16:23.600 --> 02:16:26.220
et cetera. What was that transition like for

02:16:26.220 --> 02:16:30.760
you specifically? So I got lucky, I think, because

02:16:30.760 --> 02:16:34.260
I retired in degrees. You know, I left Chicago,

02:16:34.520 --> 02:16:38.799
but I didn't leave the fire service. And, you

02:16:38.799 --> 02:16:41.739
know, so that was the bulk of my career, and

02:16:41.739 --> 02:16:44.100
that's where I still identify most with. If somebody

02:16:44.100 --> 02:16:47.319
asks, I say I was a Chicago firefighter, obviously.

02:16:47.930 --> 02:16:51.149
And but then I could do this other thing that

02:16:51.149 --> 02:16:53.469
I really never expected to do. That whole administrative

02:16:53.469 --> 02:16:55.790
fire chief thing was never on my radar screen.

02:16:56.010 --> 02:16:58.049
You know, that was nothing I could ever think

02:16:58.049 --> 02:17:03.930
of in Chicago. And then when I left there, I

02:17:03.930 --> 02:17:06.870
could leave on my own terms. And I left there

02:17:06.870 --> 02:17:10.409
largely because I was spending so much time with

02:17:10.409 --> 02:17:13.930
the lecturing and the presentations and stuff

02:17:13.930 --> 02:17:16.489
with DOL that I wasn't really attending to my.

02:17:17.970 --> 02:17:20.069
And they were very good about letting me go when

02:17:20.069 --> 02:17:21.989
I needed to go and all that kind of stuff. But

02:17:21.989 --> 02:17:25.290
and like I said before, with the whole 40 year

02:17:25.290 --> 02:17:28.290
thing, you know, I sort of mentally prepared

02:17:28.290 --> 02:17:32.549
myself for leaving at that time. But even once

02:17:32.549 --> 02:17:35.829
I left Algonquin, so April 1st, 2019, I'm done.

02:17:35.930 --> 02:17:38.569
I don't put on a uniform anymore, but I'm still

02:17:38.569 --> 02:17:40.909
involved with Underwriters Labs and the work

02:17:40.909 --> 02:17:43.579
that they're doing. doing classes you know presenting

02:17:43.579 --> 02:17:45.739
that information stuff so i'm staying in touch

02:17:45.739 --> 02:17:48.399
with the fire service still for a couple more

02:17:48.399 --> 02:17:50.559
years i still got my foot in it and all that

02:17:50.559 --> 02:17:56.940
and then probably three years ago to between

02:17:56.940 --> 02:17:58.520
two and three years ago i just kind of wound

02:17:58.520 --> 02:18:00.940
that down i just kind of got to where okay i'm

02:18:00.940 --> 02:18:02.600
not you know when i want decided i wanted to

02:18:02.600 --> 02:18:06.760
start traveling full -time And so leading into

02:18:06.760 --> 02:18:09.940
the Appalachian Trail thing, so that was 2023

02:18:09.940 --> 02:18:14.479
was the prep when we hiked it. So the year before

02:18:14.479 --> 02:18:17.120
that was the prep. And so that ate up a whole

02:18:17.120 --> 02:18:18.760
lot of time. And of course, once you're on the

02:18:18.760 --> 02:18:20.299
trail, you're on the trail. We were on the trail

02:18:20.299 --> 02:18:23.659
for five months. The plan was six. So by that

02:18:23.659 --> 02:18:26.559
time, you know, I pulled myself away pretty much

02:18:26.559 --> 02:18:30.909
100 percent. And I had done maybe one or two

02:18:30.909 --> 02:18:34.229
things. So the short story is I retired in pieces.

02:18:34.430 --> 02:18:36.389
I didn't just have a day. Well, boom, I'm not

02:18:36.389 --> 02:18:40.569
doing this anymore. Um, so that, that I, you

02:18:40.569 --> 02:18:42.350
know, I think helped me a whole lot. Right. And

02:18:42.350 --> 02:18:44.370
if you, if you are in a position where you can

02:18:44.370 --> 02:18:46.450
plan that out a little bit in some way, shape

02:18:46.450 --> 02:18:49.270
or form, I would encourage guys to do that. You

02:18:49.270 --> 02:18:50.889
know, if there are things that you can do that,

02:18:50.909 --> 02:18:53.250
that involve, you know, like you see a lot of

02:18:53.250 --> 02:18:55.469
guys, it's more common out East, uh, New York

02:18:55.469 --> 02:18:57.329
in particular where they're volunteers, wherever

02:18:57.329 --> 02:18:59.790
it is they live, because they, they tend to go

02:18:59.790 --> 02:19:02.549
from New York city to volunteer right away. They'll

02:19:02.549 --> 02:19:05.129
stay in the volunteer service for a while after

02:19:05.129 --> 02:19:07.209
they retire. If you can do that, I think those

02:19:07.209 --> 02:19:14.469
things make sense. There's any number of retirement

02:19:14.469 --> 02:19:19.510
communities that are 90 % firemen, I think. Chicago

02:19:19.510 --> 02:19:22.510
has that. They all follow each other to Arizona

02:19:22.510 --> 02:19:24.489
or Florida, wherever they're going. They keep

02:19:24.489 --> 02:19:28.840
in touch that way. So, you know, all those sorts

02:19:28.840 --> 02:19:31.639
of things make sense to me. But so I got lucky

02:19:31.639 --> 02:19:34.520
in that respect. And then the other thing that

02:19:34.520 --> 02:19:38.600
I'm not sure how I came to this. And I think

02:19:38.600 --> 02:19:44.920
maybe my dad, just by example, you know, firefighting

02:19:44.920 --> 02:19:47.920
was what he did. It wasn't who he was. You know,

02:19:47.959 --> 02:19:50.920
I mean, he was proud of what he did and, you

02:19:50.920 --> 02:19:53.239
know, he identified with it. And most of his

02:19:53.239 --> 02:19:55.659
friends, his best friend in the world with two

02:19:55.659 --> 02:19:59.799
doors down from him when he died. And he was

02:19:59.799 --> 02:20:01.659
a firefighter as well. They worked together for

02:20:01.659 --> 02:20:05.579
decades. But I never got a sense that that's

02:20:05.579 --> 02:20:07.760
who he was. Right. He didn't at family gatherings.

02:20:07.879 --> 02:20:10.639
He didn't tell fire stories. You know, he had

02:20:10.639 --> 02:20:14.280
many friends outside the fire service. So I think

02:20:14.280 --> 02:20:18.239
you got to. be cautious about your entire identity

02:20:18.239 --> 02:20:22.120
being this, I'm a fireman kind of thing, you

02:20:22.120 --> 02:20:24.200
know, and you've got to be somebody else besides

02:20:24.200 --> 02:20:29.159
that. I see guys, and this is a personal thing,

02:20:29.299 --> 02:20:31.200
just because I don't know that it's widespread,

02:20:31.399 --> 02:20:33.219
but this was just something I experienced out

02:20:33.219 --> 02:20:36.000
in Algonquin, events that we would do in the

02:20:36.000 --> 02:20:40.219
community and the local VFW post, you know, and

02:20:40.219 --> 02:20:42.540
you see these guys at parades and stuff that

02:20:42.540 --> 02:20:48.290
were Vietnam vets. and still put on their uniforms

02:20:48.290 --> 02:20:50.770
at these events and stuff like that. And I just

02:20:50.770 --> 02:20:52.569
got a sense with a couple of them with that,

02:20:52.590 --> 02:20:55.209
that that was the last important thing that they

02:20:55.209 --> 02:20:58.129
did in their life, right? They still kind of

02:20:58.129 --> 02:21:00.069
are still living with that because they don't,

02:21:00.069 --> 02:21:02.209
they didn't, you got this sense that they didn't

02:21:02.209 --> 02:21:04.229
feel that they accomplished much after that,

02:21:04.270 --> 02:21:06.229
you know, or didn't do anything of important

02:21:06.229 --> 02:21:09.809
after that. And that struck me as just kind of

02:21:09.809 --> 02:21:11.709
sad. I mean, I was glad that they still had a

02:21:11.709 --> 02:21:15.930
place to, to be that and to be proud of what

02:21:15.930 --> 02:21:18.010
they did and to get the recognition. But it was

02:21:18.010 --> 02:21:20.549
also sad to see that, you know, just the situation

02:21:20.549 --> 02:21:24.629
that they appeared to be in. And I think there's

02:21:24.629 --> 02:21:26.670
just concrete steps that any of us can take to

02:21:26.670 --> 02:21:28.629
make sure that doesn't happen to us. Have some

02:21:28.629 --> 02:21:33.329
interests, have something besides golf outside

02:21:33.329 --> 02:21:35.409
the fire service, you know, be somebody besides

02:21:35.409 --> 02:21:37.889
a firefighter. I think it was important. It was

02:21:37.889 --> 02:21:43.850
to me. And, excuse me. So I think that helps

02:21:43.850 --> 02:21:47.530
a whole lot. Makes a whole lot of sense. When

02:21:47.530 --> 02:21:49.469
you were hiking the Appalachian Trail, I would

02:21:49.469 --> 02:21:52.930
imagine there was a lot of quiet time. Did you

02:21:52.930 --> 02:21:56.149
notice your mind start to quieten over time as

02:21:56.149 --> 02:22:00.069
you were removing all the inputs and all the

02:22:00.069 --> 02:22:05.790
stresses of decades in the fire service? I don't

02:22:05.790 --> 02:22:09.590
know if I was ever that aware of it. In hindsight,

02:22:09.649 --> 02:22:13.569
I'd say it happened. um but i yeah at the moment

02:22:13.569 --> 02:22:16.370
i you know because the other thing for me anyway

02:22:16.370 --> 02:22:19.670
you know it it was uh hiking doing a long distance

02:22:19.670 --> 02:22:22.090
like that first off i've never done anything

02:22:22.090 --> 02:22:24.799
remotely like that so many people that that do

02:22:24.799 --> 02:22:28.559
the AT or one of those other ones. This is what

02:22:28.559 --> 02:22:31.159
they do, right? They're big backpackers, hikers,

02:22:31.159 --> 02:22:33.340
and this, you know, we just jumped into this

02:22:33.340 --> 02:22:35.159
thing. Oh, maybe we'll do this. We went down

02:22:35.159 --> 02:22:38.920
to Ocala and did a five -day hike down Ocala

02:22:38.920 --> 02:22:40.940
to prepare. And we walked around with backpacks

02:22:40.940 --> 02:22:42.459
a whole lot. And then we got on the Appalachian

02:22:42.459 --> 02:22:47.700
Trail and took off. You know, so it was physically

02:22:47.700 --> 02:22:53.299
very, very demanding. So it wasn't so much tranquil

02:22:53.299 --> 02:22:58.579
in that respect. I was working very hard much

02:22:58.579 --> 02:23:01.440
of the day to keep up with this woman in front

02:23:01.440 --> 02:23:03.600
of me who could just hike forever, it seemed

02:23:03.600 --> 02:23:10.159
like. But I get where you're coming from. And

02:23:10.159 --> 02:23:13.319
I think my life in general since then, there's

02:23:13.319 --> 02:23:16.940
been a lot of that. And it's part of why I like

02:23:16.940 --> 02:23:21.200
doing what I'm doing. is that I don't have to

02:23:21.200 --> 02:23:24.360
be anywhere. I don't, you know, I have a whole

02:23:24.360 --> 02:23:27.200
lot of control over who I'm with and what surrounds

02:23:27.200 --> 02:23:29.659
me and all that sort of stuff. And the state

02:23:29.659 --> 02:23:31.920
of mind that I'm in is like a hundred percent

02:23:31.920 --> 02:23:35.280
under my control. I'm not responding to, you

02:23:35.280 --> 02:23:37.540
know, buttons being pushed kind of thing. Right.

02:23:40.450 --> 02:23:43.770
And so, and I guess that's any of us, right?

02:23:43.850 --> 02:23:47.290
I mean, that's what the whole, like people do

02:23:47.290 --> 02:23:48.909
what they do, the golfing or the fishing. I got

02:23:48.909 --> 02:23:51.530
a brother -in -law that's a retired fireman as

02:23:51.530 --> 02:23:54.629
well, and he's a big fisherman. And that's his

02:23:54.629 --> 02:23:57.209
happy place, you know. I mean, he will fish all

02:23:57.209 --> 02:24:02.209
day long, every single day, and loves it, absolutely

02:24:02.209 --> 02:24:04.649
loves it. And I couldn't imagine doing that at

02:24:04.649 --> 02:24:10.260
all. Yeah, for me, being in the woods and walking

02:24:10.260 --> 02:24:14.200
is kind of like his fishing, you know, that's

02:24:14.200 --> 02:24:18.879
just having, you know, and I was in the scouts

02:24:18.879 --> 02:24:21.040
when I was a kid and the whole outdoors thing

02:24:21.040 --> 02:24:22.739
I was always had, you know, and that's the kind

02:24:22.739 --> 02:24:24.500
of vacations we took because when you got nine

02:24:24.500 --> 02:24:26.579
kids, you're not staying in hotels, you're staying

02:24:26.579 --> 02:24:30.760
in tents. And so that was a part of my growing

02:24:30.760 --> 02:24:32.639
up being out in the woods and that whole getting

02:24:32.639 --> 02:24:34.459
away from it all kind of thing. And so coming

02:24:34.459 --> 02:24:37.840
back to that. And my retirement has been really

02:24:37.840 --> 02:24:41.260
good for me. I really enjoy it. Just, you know,

02:24:41.260 --> 02:24:49.799
being away from people and dogs. Yeah, not alone,

02:24:49.979 --> 02:24:52.639
but, you know, controlling my environment means

02:24:52.639 --> 02:24:56.100
a lot to me. Brilliant. Well, for people listening,

02:24:56.340 --> 02:24:59.120
if they wanted to reach out to you, do you have

02:24:59.120 --> 02:25:01.680
any places on social media or emails for people

02:25:01.680 --> 02:25:03.040
to contact you, even though you're going to be

02:25:03.040 --> 02:25:07.420
on a ship now for half a year? Yeah, petevandorp

02:25:07.420 --> 02:25:11.979
at gmail .com. And you can post that up or whatever.

02:25:12.180 --> 02:25:14.120
That's fine. I probably won't get back to you

02:25:14.120 --> 02:25:18.379
for seven months. Yeah, we don't, we actually,

02:25:18.620 --> 02:25:21.459
we, because I shouldn't say we, Lisa did all

02:25:21.459 --> 02:25:24.399
the work. When we were hiking the trail, we got

02:25:24.399 --> 02:25:26.719
a YouTube channel and we, you know, tried to

02:25:26.719 --> 02:25:29.959
put up periodically, you know, what we did every

02:25:29.959 --> 02:25:32.200
day kind of thing. And that's a lot of work.

02:25:32.280 --> 02:25:35.459
You obviously know you do this. But it's more

02:25:35.459 --> 02:25:37.180
work than either one of us ever wanted to do

02:25:37.180 --> 02:25:40.260
again. In some ways, we originally did it just

02:25:40.260 --> 02:25:43.940
to keep, the idea was it'd be less work than

02:25:43.940 --> 02:25:46.079
answering people's texts all the time. We just

02:25:46.079 --> 02:25:48.979
wanted it for friends and family, right? But

02:25:48.979 --> 02:25:50.959
actually, the people that engaged us the most

02:25:50.959 --> 02:25:53.079
turned out to be total strangers. So that becomes

02:25:53.079 --> 02:25:55.059
a little bit more of a stress kind of thing,

02:25:55.180 --> 02:25:56.360
you know, because you're trying to entertain

02:25:56.360 --> 02:25:58.879
them now or whatever. So we're never going to

02:25:58.879 --> 02:26:02.920
do that again. So there's no social media of

02:26:02.920 --> 02:26:05.809
Pete and Lisa on their travels. um which many

02:26:05.809 --> 02:26:09.069
people do but it's not for us um i don't think

02:26:09.069 --> 02:26:11.469
we tried it and it just didn't wasn't what we

02:26:11.469 --> 02:26:15.149
wanted so um but yeah if anybody wants to reach

02:26:15.149 --> 02:26:18.020
out to me i'd be happy to speak with anyone.

02:26:18.459 --> 02:26:20.500
Brilliant. Well, Pete, I want to thank you. It's

02:26:20.500 --> 02:26:22.479
been such an incredible conversation. We've been

02:26:22.479 --> 02:26:24.899
all over the place, but I mean, hearing some

02:26:24.899 --> 02:26:27.559
of your perspectives coming from, you know, the

02:26:27.559 --> 02:26:31.000
lineage that you have and the positions that

02:26:31.000 --> 02:26:32.700
you held, I think it's invaluable, especially

02:26:32.700 --> 02:26:34.459
for, you know, a lot of the younger firefighters

02:26:34.459 --> 02:26:36.799
out there listening and maybe debunking some

02:26:36.799 --> 02:26:39.079
of the, you know, the myths that they've been

02:26:39.079 --> 02:26:41.860
taught early in their career. So I want to thank

02:26:41.860 --> 02:26:44.100
you so much for being so generous with your time

02:26:44.100 --> 02:26:46.399
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

02:26:47.559 --> 02:26:49.979
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It's as

02:26:49.979 --> 02:26:52.520
much as I like to say, you know, I'm retired

02:26:52.520 --> 02:26:57.620
with a capital R. And, you know, but to like

02:26:57.620 --> 02:26:59.659
one of our last points here, right, how do you

02:26:59.659 --> 02:27:02.940
manage this whole separating from this thing

02:27:02.940 --> 02:27:04.680
that was so much a part of your life? And this

02:27:04.680 --> 02:27:07.020
is this is one of the ways you manage that you

02:27:07.020 --> 02:27:09.559
never completely separate. Right. So you've given

02:27:09.559 --> 02:27:12.700
me an opportunity to reconnect with what was

02:27:12.700 --> 02:27:16.010
such a big part of my life for so long. And I'm

02:27:16.010 --> 02:27:17.950
grateful to you for that. So thank you.