This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the
first staffing software to be truly firefighter
proof. Now you may be wondering why I have software
as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical
and mental health of the first responders, and
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the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring
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if you want to hear the full story from the founder,
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to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you
want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise
.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering, and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show 33 -year fire service veteran and former
training chief for Chicago Fire Department, Pete
Van Dorp. So in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics from Pete's own journey into
the fire service, the training and mental health
conversations back then, the resistance to fire
service innovation. his work with Underwriters
Laboratory, some exciting technology that's coming
to our profession, the recruitment crisis, moral
injury, his wanderlust, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost twelve hundred episodes now. So all I
ask in return is that you help share these incredible
men and women stories so I can get them to every
single person on planet Earth who needs to hear
them. So with that being said, I introduce to
you Pete. Van Dorp. Enjoy. Pete, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our
mutual friend Lionel Crowther for even making
the introduction. We both presented in California
about a year ago now. And secondly, I want to
welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast
today. Thank you. Yeah, Lionel's a great guy.
And he's one of the best friends I made in the
fire service. I retired, retired with a capital
R a couple of years ago, but I made an exception
for Lionel. It really was an exception. I committed
to doing something for him many years ago, and
we never were able to put it together until just
last year. So, yeah, and that's where we met
with a couple other folks. It was a great time.
Absolutely. It's the same thing. I don't like.
doing public speaking normally so when he asked
me and uh you know it was to do with louis as
well i'm like okay well how can we say no to
those two amazing men exactly they're hard guys
to say no to yeah with all that they do yeah
absolutely well very first question because this
is an interesting kind of uh response to this
firstly where on planet earth are we finding
you today you're finding me in westmont which
is a suburb of chicago west of chicago And where
will we be finding you in about 10 days time?
In 10 days time, you'll be finding me in Los
Angeles. Briefly. You want me to go right into
it or you want to ask? I do. Yeah, because I
think I think there's so much value in, you know,
post service and adventure rather than, you know,
just watching watching the number of years countdown
and then playing golf till you die. So talk to
me, I guess roll back a little bit. Talk to me
about the traveling you do in your van and then
we'll get to the cruise. OK, so, yeah, I met
the love of my life about three years ago. And
one of the things that attracted us to each other
was our post -retirement plans were very similar.
And we were talking about divesting ourselves
of all of our. burdensome possessions and traveling
full time. And so that's what we do. We both,
we sold our houses and most of our possessions.
And with a few exceptions, a very, very few exceptions,
if it doesn't fit in our Sprinter van, we don't
own it. And so we travel full time in a Sprinter
van of all things. And we're taking a break from
that, if you will. come this month and we're
going to get on a cruise ship and we're going
to cruise around the world for six months so
we'll be from so we're everybody asks about how
big our stateroom is we say it's bigger than
our van so um we'll be uh yeah which uh that's
what we'll be doing which company you're sailing
with uh oceana okay Yeah, my sister worked on
the QE2 back when that was the kind of flagship
of Cunard, and they used to do the round. I think
it was a three -month trip with them, but, I
mean, just their destinations are amazing. Yeah,
we took the longest one we could find, actually.
You could do, you know, several different. But
we looked for two things, length of cruise and
number of ports of call, right? Because a lot
you can spend, and you do no matter what you're
doing. You know, you've got to cross the Pacific
Ocean, so you're going to spend a lot of time
on the water. which can get a little dull. So
we're better than 50 % at ports of call. So that's
pretty good as these things go. Amazing. I absolutely
love cruises. It's funny because when we were
younger, cruises were seen as air quotes for
old people. but then you get on well i'm not
far behind but but then you get on you realize
that well what's so amazing about them if you're
a parent there's all these things that your kids
can do and they can actually be you know watched
for several hours so you can actually have some
time but the simple things that are An irritant,
don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware this is first
world problems, but doing your laundry, doing
cooking, what am I going to eat today? All these
things, cleaning, everything is done. Then if
you choose not to get Wi -Fi, you're disconnected
from the world. I find it incredibly healing
when we go on a cruise from Florida here. We've
never been, either one of us, on a traditional
cruise ship. This is very much a both feet in.
uh the first time around and um but you know
we did the same thing with the traveling right
just get rid of everything and off we went so
um she's a trooper she puts up with all that
what are some of the destinations you're most
excited about oh boy i don't you know um Well,
for me, it's not even so much a destination.
I'm a seafaring fan, if you will. I like to read
historical books about the age of sail and all
that. So the whole idea of sailing around Cape
Horn just fascinates the crap out of me. I just
find that, you know, it's certainly not going
to be the experience that they had in the age
of sail, but it'll be very similar. I mean, that
to me is worth doing in and of itself. Australia,
I've always wanted to see. The whole Southeast
Asia, I never thought I'd get there. And then
places like we're going to make some stops up
in Iceland in that area. So that I'm really looking
forward to that, too, because that's always been
a bucket list destination for me. And really
part of the attraction of all this is there's
a lot of places that you would probably, you
know, because you're doing the whole thing in
a sense, not literally, but close to it. A lot
of places that you would put down, you know,
a third or fourth tier. that you're going to
make you know so i find that that's part of the
appeal is that you know you get to dip your toe
in these places and see if you really want to
go back and explore them uh without a full commitment
you know to that one little part of the world
so absolutely and and the whole idea of being
taken care of i mean living on the road is not
exactly it's not burdensome but you know you
never have the same bathroom the same shower
the same you know so you know and the whole Like
you said, cooking and cleaning and all that is
a little more of a chore than it is when you're
living in a house someplace. So having that full
service, you know, being taken care of for six
months, we're looking forward to that. Yeah.
No, I am extremely envious. When we do sail,
I normally get the balcony room, and it's not
anything other than whatever's going on, because
obviously some of these ships, they've got a
lot going on on the upper decks. Yeah. You can
just sit there with a cup of coffee and a book
and the ocean is just going right past your bedroom.
And it's so healing to me. And so I can imagine,
you know, like you said, the ocean days for me
wouldn't be a negative at all either. I wouldn't
find it either. I've never spent this much time
on the open water, but I've sailed a bit and
I love being on the water. When you were downsizing
to the camper. I went around the world when I
was young and literally had a backpack and a
guitar, like truly, and spent a year traveling.
Actually, more than that, because I was starting
to travel, then I got hired as a stuntman in
Japan and ended up staying there for 15 months.
But it made you realize how little you actually
need, like, you know, obviously more underwear
than anything else. But apart from that, a couple
of pairs of jeans, a couple of pairs of shorts,
a hoodie, and you're pretty much golden. What
were the essentials that you distilled down to?
And then were there any luxuries that you just
couldn't get rid of? Yeah, so there's a back
story to this a little bit. So the first real
vacation we took together was to hike the Appalachian
Trail. So that's really getting by. It's not
quite a backpack and a guitar, but it's pretty
darn close to it. Absolutely. So we hiked. We
did most of it. Lisa broke her ankle about 1
,800 miles in, so we had to stop. So the van
actually was a step up in terms of what we could,
you know, take with us. But, yeah, so it's actually
a part of the appeal to me. The whole lifestyle
is the minimalism part of it, right, getting
rid of all that baggage, all that stuff that
you just accumulate over your lifetime that really
doesn't give you joy anymore, you know. So, you
know, what I found, things that I personally
found, I've never been a clothes horse at all,
but it's amazing how much clothing you've accumulated
because you simply have room to put it in. Things
that were hard to get rid of, like tools, you
know, I've always had a house that I remodeled
or rehabbed. I was a carpenter on the side. I
always had a, you know. So that, you know, and
it wasn't so much hard. It's just I was nervous
about being without that stuff because I was
kind of used to always having whatever I needed
in the basement or that sort of thing. So that
was a little bit, you know, tough to let go.
Anything else, I tell you, really, really wasn't.
The exception would be, and this is kind of easy
because they're small, but I collect watches.
I collect and trade, buy and sell, whatever.
So I have a... box full of watches uh but you
know that's relatively small so um that was easy
to not have to let go of i downsized that as
well actually but not so much so the watches
come with but that's about it have you ever heard
of william wood watches uh no that is a the uh
i think he's the son of a firefighter it's been
a few years since i interviewed him but he's
an english watchmaker um and he repurposes fire
hose and some other things and turns them into
watches so some of them have got like the brake
glass and emergency i mean they're they're beautiful
beautiful watches so it's interesting i highly
highly recommend looking that out i think you'd
be blown away well i need to ask you assuming
that you have to park in all these different
rv parks or camping sites what are some of the
the funniest stories of some of the places you
found yourself in the van man you're asking the
wrong guy i'm not a funny story guy um why trying
to think i mean you know we tend to gravitate
i mean we're still in a lot of ways we're still
learning how to do this right you just you know
we've been doing it a couple years now but um
we tend to go from state park to state park and
those are pretty safe places in the sense that
They're not really all that adventurous in a
sense. I mean, you know what you're getting,
you know, pretty much. You know, I think one
of the things that we should have known about
that we get a chuckle out of because it bothers
us, I guess, more than it should. But we, you
know, we try to laugh it all off. It's the whole
animal, pet, dogs everywhere, you know, people
that travel with their animals. Just, you know,
now. We're in a much smaller box than most other
people. Most other people are traveling in bigger
rigs than us. But even with that, I just could
not imagine having a dog, let alone a cat, let
alone two dogs or three dogs or two or three
cats or whatever. And the amount of pets that
people travel with and then what they go through,
right, to have these animals with them the whole
time with having to set up the fences. all of
that sort of stuff um never ceases to amaze us
uh that you know that people will go because
for us part of it a big part of it is simplifying
your life right uncomplicating your life and
i can't taking a pet along doesn't seem to fit
in with for me now i get it you know i've had
animals i had dogs most of my life and and so
i get the you know the attachment and all that
but i just couldn't imagine traveling with one
not not like this you know and um So that, yeah,
we get a chuckle out of that a whole lot, that
sort of thing. And try to laugh it off because
it can be frustrating sometimes. I mean, people
think that you love their dog as much as they
do, you know. And I'm not so much. I've kind
of had my fill of, you know, dirty, furry, shedding,
all that kind of stuff. What amazes me is just
the amount of money in a lot of these RVs. And
it'd be one thing, you know, whether you are
a touring rock band or a movie star on a set
for, you know, or actor, should I say, for three
or four months, or like yourselves, you've cashed
everything out and you're traveling, I totally
understand that. That's now your full investment.
But the number of RVs is they just built a storage
unit down the road from me, and it's just full
of boats and RVs. So obviously these are people
that are living in houses. And it blows me away
the amount of money that's spent. And to me,
I just kind of think a little differently. If
you're not selling everything and traveling,
solely living in that. why would you want to
yeah just why don't you just stay in a fancy
hotel whenever you want to travel why don't you
rent a boat when you want to go fishing yeah
and the amount of stuff that they bring with
them when you see people you know unloading all
this stuff i mean they have fans outside and
they have big giant barbecue grills i mean full
size the whole nine yards you know and you know
do your thing right and but yeah it just amazes
me it's like what it's almost like what's the
point if you're gonna you know, work that hard.
I don't know how much recreating you're doing,
but yeah. Yeah. It is pretty fascinating watching
that because you're right. There's, it's, there's
a different way to do this for everybody. You
know, uh, some people ask, you know, they ask,
you know, how do you like the rig? Would you
do that size again or whatever? And I'm always
a little reticent because it's like, I, you know,
it's so personal. What works for us might be
an utter disaster for somebody else. Absolutely.
I think to me, it's just I think the most laughable
thing, for example, when the gas prices were
higher, everyone was complaining. But no one
was saying, well, why do I have a 12 seater SUV
for my one kid and a dog? So, you know, when
we're looking at health care in this country
and national health, like, oh, you know, trying
to try to make us broke is like, well, you've
got a fucking RV on your front driveway. You're
telling me that you can't afford to contribute
to a national health care system. So that that's
where I struggle a little bit. yeah oh yeah we
we like our toys absolutely and it's you know
and if you're if you're getting full use out
of it you know god bless you that's all wonderful
but yeah there's a lot of just accumulation of
stuff absolutely all right well let's go origin
story then so tell me where you were born and
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic
what your parents did how many siblings okay
uh i was born and raised in chicago and uh My
father was a Chicago firefighter, and I'm one
of nine children, actually ten. There were nine
in the original brood, and my parents divorced,
my dad remarried, and at the age of 60 had a
son. But that's sort of like a different story
almost. Anyway, yeah, so very large family, even
for the time, nine kids. Born and raised in Chicago,
went to Chicago schools. And, you know, we were
not raised to be firefighters. You know, my dad
had no desire for us to follow in his footsteps.
We didn't spend time at the firehouse. We didn't.
That is not how we grew up. You know, we were
supposed to go to college and make something
of ourselves. And, you know, that he was part
of that kind of generation that always wanted
the kids to be better. And somehow better was
always something more than what they had, I guess.
But it didn't work out that way because I was
a really bad student. But anyway, I when the
opportunity came and here's the flip side of
that whole thing is that, you know, when the
hiring in Chicago is such that it's a crapshoot,
it really is. And it has been forever. This is
not a recent thing. They give entrance exams
maybe once every seven to 10 years. Yeah. And
the same for promotional exams and stuff like
that. So you might not have any interest in if
you had the slightest interest at all in this
job. When the entrance exam comes around, you
take it because you might not. You know, maybe
you're not ready for the job right now or whatever.
But if you're eligible to take the exam, you
do, because it could be a decade before they
come knock on your door. And that was pretty
much the situation with me. And, you know, my
dad said, you know, better sign up because you
don't know. You're not amounting to much as it
is. So, you know, this might be good for you.
So it turns out so that that worked out for me.
And I have a younger brother that also came on
the Chicago Fire Department. And I have a younger
brother who went on a suburban fire department
simply because that's how the timing worked for
him. That's where he was. And then a nephew that's
a firefighter as well, so another generation.
So yeah, it wasn't designed to be the family
business, but it turned into the family business.
Spent the bulk of my career in Chicago, 33 years.
I was the director of training when I retired.
That was my last assignment, last position. Just
because, you know, it was there's a lot of things
that came into play of why I left. But it was
like, I'm not going to go any further than this.
This is where I had maxed out my pension. And
I just started looking around. What might I want
to do next? You know, and threw out a couple
of resumes just to see what the market was like,
if you will. And I got a job offer, which I really
didn't expect. I got a job offer. So then I had
a, you know, OK, I had to get off the pot. What
do I want to do here? And so, you know, I've
been asking some of my friends in the suburbs
because it was a suburban job, you know, just
outside of the city. And I said, anybody know
this guy? I don't even know who this fire chief
is. Anybody know the department? And I was asking
one guy, he says, oh, yeah, he's just my best
friend. I kind of know him, you know. So, OK,
there's a connection there now that I might be
a little more interested in this, you know. You
know, and I said I got an offer. I got an interview.
at of course at first and um and then the next
thing that happened is someone else said are
you really interested in this job and i said
well why he says well because i'm going to be
on the interview board and if you're just you
know fishing i should know that because i don't
want to recommend you if you're just fishing
i'm not going to you know i said no i'm serious
about it he said okay um so anyway pieces started
to fall into place i wound up getting a job offer
and so um i took it i left chicago um and went
out to Algonquin Lake and Hills Fire Protection
District. And I was assistant chief out there
for a couple of years. And then the guy that
hired me bailed, which I kind of knew was part
of the maybe what happened sort of thing. It
happened quicker than I thought it would. And
they offered me the job of fire chief. So for
my last two and a half years or whatever out
there, I was the fire chief. And then in 2019,
April 1st of 2019, I pulled the pin. And there
was a very specific reason for that, because
when I came on the job, that was my first day
on the job in Chicago was April 1st. All right.
So somehow that was like, OK, that's going to
be my retirement date if I could pull it off.
And I remember I had gotten promoted to engineer
in Chicago and still young on the job. And you
get assigned to this to a relief pool. And part
of my rotation was out to the airport where at
the time, especially and even now to some extent,
it's where guys kind of went out to retire, right?
Retire in place. They just their last few years
out there because there's not a lot of fire duty.
It's a lot busier than it used to be, but it
used to be an ideal retirement spot. Anyway,
so I rotate out there and I see these guys that
look like they should have retired 10 years ago.
And they're just sitting there with nothing to
do, just waiting to be forced off the job because
they didn't know what else to do with themselves.
And I thought, I'm not going to do that. I'm
not going to do 40 years on this job. And I had
the benefit of coming on very young. I was 20
years old when I came on. So I could do that,
right? I could, you know, have a full career.
But I promised myself not to spend 40 years working
in the fire service. So in April of 2019, I'm
bumping up on 40 -year mark, right? and uh and
that wasn't the whole reason but knowing that
that was coming you know helped me make that
decision yeah it's time to go you know you mentioned
about growing up in a firefighter family going
all the way back you know i want to definitely
get to the transition out in a little bit but
um when you reflect back now with this veteran
lens that you have and these all these different
conversations we're having from family time and
dynamic to mental health to you know all the
things What were the pros of growing up with
a father as a firefighter and what were the cons,
if any, when you remember? The pros were he wasn't
always home. So there was, you know, the mice
are going to play right the cats away kind of
thing. But then, of course, he always did come
home. When your father gets home, you know, there
was all that. And now I'll tell you that in hindsight,
I don't think I appreciate it at the time. But
in hindsight, that was both good and bad, because
as you might expect, both my parents worked.
My mom was a nurse. And so who was working and
who was home? You know, my dad worked at 2448
shift. So my mom would work when he was off work.
So, you know, we grew up with my dad at home
sometimes. And the exception would be if he could
find side job that paid better than nursing.
Then he would work. And then as we got older,
which took a while because they kept having new
babies, you know, eventually we could manage
to not kill ourselves, you know, while they were
both at work. But so I had my, you know, both
my parents at home way before it was a popular
thing or common or whatever, you know. So I grew
up with my dad at home, at least part of the
time. Right. More so than, you know, was was
common or typical, I suppose. And that was both
good and bad, you know, and I don't I don't it
was just it was our life. It was just normal.
So I didn't think anything of it until I got
old enough to be comparing myself to other kids
and other families. And you go, well, this was
kind of cool that dad was around a little more
often than most kids saw at the time. Anyway,
especially the most firefighter friend, you know,
those families, because their dads were working
two jobs. that was almost well it still is in
chicago it's like you can't afford to live there
if you don't work two jobs basically and in chicago
still to this day you have to live in the corporate
city limits um so you can't move to a cheaper
place um you know and commute in so uh you know
the extra the the two jobs was a requirement
i mean it's just how you got by uh so i think
that was um that You know, part of it was different.
And then the whole dad's gone during the holidays
and things like that. My parents may manage that
to turn that into a aren't you lucky because
we're going to have Christmas early kind of thing.
You know, we never saw that as some sort of terrible
detriment kind of thing. And and then the other
thing that you learn is like. Christmas morning,
you know, somebody that didn't have kids or whose
kids were a little older would stay in. So, you
know, my dad could stay home at least for a couple
hours with his kids and he'd go into work a couple
hours late and stuff. So I didn't see those things.
My personal experience was they weren't big kind
of traumas or anything like that. So I don't
know that that was I don't know if that answers
your question, but I didn't you know, we. here's
the other thing we we had moved by the time i
was in eighth grade we had moved up to the northwest
side of the city and we were in an area where
they call it the city worker ghetto you know
it's it's no ghetto by any stretch but it's it's
the far northwest corner of the city and it's
one of the places where many of the city workers
gravitate because the neighborhoods are just
nice and what they can afford so you're surrounded
by other cops and firemen and sanitation workers
and all that so you're going to grade school
you know with all these other kids whose dads
are cops and firefighters and stuff so um it
was in that sense it was a big part of us growing
up. The people we knew were city workers. But
like I said, there was never this following in
my footsteps sort of thing. He wanted me to be
a dentist or something like that. Because obviously
you were in Chicago for a long time as well.
What does the core volume compare today versus
when your dad was working? it's a lot higher
but it's also different so uh they certainly
did more fire duty there's just you know my dad
was that was the the heyday right the 60s and
70s that was his career in and then into the
a's of course but the peaks you know of his career
were and that was the white flight out of the
cities and the riots and the vietnam war protests
and all that kind of stuff um So that the fire,
it was not at all an exaggeration because I looked
at the journals, at the books, you know, they
would do three or four fires in a 24 hour period,
day in and day out, every shift, every day of
the week. And not just in the big, busy, busy
ghetto areas of the city. I mean, that's what
cities were like in the 60s and 70s. People didn't
live there really unless they had to. It was
tough. And then, but they didn't have EMS. They
didn't have hazmat. They didn't have CO detectors.
You know, they did have EMS in a sense, but the
call volume wasn't anything like it was today.
So they were certainly busy. And they did a lot
of nonsense runs still, because if you remember,
many people may remember. or i might be older
than i think the street boxes right uh the fire
alarm boxes on the streets and people you know
that was the false alarms of their day we have
the automatic fire alarms that get triggered
by whatever but in their day it was those boxes
those mechanical boxes that would either get
bumped or hit or deliberately pulled you know
so they were chasing those around all the time
that was their nuisance call um of the that era
but they they were Very, very busy. Where they
were busy, they were very, very busy. But it
was a different kind of busy, I think. Yeah.
Well, it's interesting because you're talking
about the 24 -48. And I actually just Googled
Chicago right before we sat down, and it's still
24 -48, if I'm not mistaken. But like you said,
the absorption of EMS and all these other ones,
definitely not as physically taxing as far as
strenuous activity like fight and fire, but that
continuous unending call volume. If he was working
in the 60s, 60 years later, the schedule hasn't
changed at all. I think it's just important to
highlight that before we move on. Yeah, there's
more. They call them daily days in Chicago. I
think most places call them Kelly days. And that
pops up more frequently than it used to. So you'll
have one every fifth instead of every sixth or
seventh or tenth or whatever. So there's a little
more scheduled time off, but not, to your point
and your mission, it's still a 24 -48, so you
still have that non -recovery time. And then
it's actually worse. So Chicago still has a EMS
system where they have what they call single
-role medics. So they have paramedics that are
not firefighters at all. They're on the fire
department. Pace scale is the same, the pension,
all that, but they are not sworn firefighters.
They're paramedics. So they don't do any fire
duty. And they work a one -on -three. They look
one -on -three off. But they are so chronically
short of paramedics all the time that effectively
they're almost working a one -on -one off. So
it's not working in that sense. For many of them,
because the call volume is so high and they can't
keep paramedics. They just can't hire enough.
Well, while we're kind of on that topic, and
I'm wondering if this is part of the reason you
mentioned about transitioning out for multiple
reasons. I've had people on the fire side, excuse
me, on the law enforcement side in Chicago talking
about kind of organizational betrayal. And that's
why they hung up their badge and their gun belt.
Aside from the work week itself, what are other
factors, if any, that are contributing to struggling
to recruit in the Chicago area specifically?
Well, I think part of I think we have to change
how we sell the job. It was sold to me and even
the guys that immediately came behind me. brother
and stuff like that. It was really about the
pension, right? And the job security. And those
were important things. I think they still are,
but they were very important things in the 60s,
70s, 80s, right? Because you could see that was
going away in private industry, but the fact
that you still had a pension, you still had healthcare,
and then you basically had a job for life as
long as you didn't commit any felonies. And you
needed to, you know, and that was important,
and that's kind of how you sold the job. You
tell, my experience at the end of my career when
I was in Algonquin, you tell, or try to tell
potential recruits that, and they look at you
like, so what? You know, they cannot imagine
working at one location for one employer for
30 years, or even for 20 years. It's just like,
why on earth would I do that? And you do it because
you get a pension. But that means nothing. You
know, so, you know, it's, you know, that that's
got how we sell the job with the benefit of the
job is has to, you know, for us, it really was
security. For my dad's generation, I think, and
for mine, it was the job security that, you know,
you would put up with a whole lot because of
that, because it offered you that security. And
the promise of the punch was a big deal. And
it is a big deal. I mean, I. i'm making more
in retirement than most people make going to
work every day you know now i paid for that and
it took me 40 years but it's there you know a
lot of people work very hard and don't have squat
um but it's hard to sell that today you know
i don't think i i could see it when when they
sold it to me because i guess because that's
part of growing up with it right you know i just
lived that that part of it day in and day out.
And with a family of nine kids, that whole idea
of you always have a job meant something, right?
You didn't have to worry about seasonal work.
You didn't have to worry about, you know, the
construction jobs would go away in the winter
and things like that. It's interesting because
I just had a conversation with Doug Orchard,
who's a documentary maker, and he's working on
a film at the moment on how private equity firms
are dipping into... state and, you know, county
pensions. And so I think one of the challenges
of this young generation is, you know, back in,
you know, when you were working, I'm assuming
that was when healthcare also actually paid for
the doctor and all these things. You might have
had a $10 copay. My generation was the higher
deductibles. So basically the only way you'll
ever use your insurance is if you get hit by
a bus or are chronically ill. Otherwise, you
know, you're just basically paying out of pocket
and paying these premiums as well. And then now
with the pensions, like when I was in Florida,
the governor there, Rick Scott, actually cut
our pension. So you're slicing and dicing all
these things that were that stability and that
promise. And I think that the younger generation,
they're not being told that or sold that because
we don't believe that's actually still going
to be there at that point. You know what I mean?
Because the pensions are in danger. When you
hear about what's happening to these pensions.
there are organizations where you know their
retirees 10 years later might be getting 10 cents
to the dollar on their pension so i think we
need to reframe it because i mean ultimately
the reason to go into the job is is service i
mean it really is and taking care of our people
but if the things that used to be the carrot
on the stick have basically been you know absolutely
decimated then it isn't allure anymore no it's
it's not And I think even if they weren't being
decimated, it wouldn't be the Lord because there's
just a different expectation about what work
should be, which is not bad. I mean, it's a good
thing, right? You want to get more out of your
job than just a paycheck. And that makes perfect
sense. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to use a
parallel. When I started talking to some of the
MMA fighters and coaches, there was a push because
of head trauma and CTE and all these things.
There was a push to do a lot more light sparring,
drills, bag work, all that kind of thing and
limit the sparring for occasionally and then
in the cage. And then if you look at the strength
conditioning world, you know, with the CrossFit
and all these other ones, it was only, you know,
four times a week for an hour would get you extremely
fit. And so that less is more has become, you
know, a reality. And then you look at the corporate
business world. They've moved to a four, eight
hour day. And it's not that these employees are
weaker. It's just that actually realize it actually
forges performance. They're more innovative.
They're happier. They're healthier. And so the
downstream costs are less. Go back to our profession
in 2025. We're struggling to recruit anyone.
And so our men and women are being forced to
work sometimes 80 plus hours a week. And we're
wondering why no one wants to do this anymore.
Yeah, yeah. I think you're spot on with that.
I think, I guess, you know, again, in my generation,
you couldn't work enough overtime, you know,
and it just, part of it was it didn't come up
as often, right? But you would never, you know,
nobody would ever turn down overtime. I mean,
you just, you just wouldn't, you know, and now
it's kind of, it's hard to find guys to work
the overtime. and and to your point there it's
because they're overworked to begin with you
know they're they're working um i think we under
appreciate how hard they're working sometimes
even in this you know like i finished my career
in this suburb where it was kind of funny because
you know they coming from where i did and we
didn't always know how to um talk to one another
if you will because that like they had learned
like if they looked at me and said either directly
or through a another officer well you don't understand
chief we were really busy that day you know why
something didn't get done and i was like really
you have any idea what busy means you know but
you know so they had learned not to say that
and i had to learn that um they do do a lot of
other things than chase you know more so than
the guys in the city do so to speak so um yeah
but we had you know we had a we Both had to readjust
to that sort of what expectations, you know,
were and what made for a good excuse to the new
boss, you know. And what really busy wasn't.
But I think you're right, is that a guy like
me, you know, intuitively thinks, well, you didn't
go to any fires today, so you didn't do anything,
you know. And I'm somebody that should know better.
Right. And does no better. But still, because
of when I came on, because of my age and my history,
you know, that's still my gut reaction. I didn't
do much today. And and that couldn't be more
wrong. They're working harder than ever. And
it's more stressful. Fires aren't really all
that stressful, especially for the firefighter.
They're stress relievers. You get to break shit,
get dirty. Release all that aggression, right?
They're not stressful. They can be stressful
for the officers, and the post -incident can
be stressful for a firefighter. But it's not
stressful work, generally speaking. All the other
stuff is, right? The EMS stuff, the dealing with
the public, the trauma, those are stressful.
And so I think that a guy like me under appreciates
that, the impact at all of that, even though
I lived through it. I didn't live through it
like they're living through it today. Well, it's
interesting because I talk about dispatchers.
I think that's the perfect example because you've
got a dispatcher on the phone in a dark room
that probably arrived when the sun was still
down. went into this room, sat with no windows
and electric light. Now they're on the phone
to a mother who's trying to revive their one
-year -old who's not breathing. They're trying
to talk him through the whole CPR algorithm.
The mother's screaming, where the hell are they?
Where the hell are they? They finally get there.
And then they're disconnected because they're
there now. so all that stress and they're still
sitting in a chair in a dark room at least you
know like if we work you know a code on someone
on an adult there's still like you said some
sort of physical offload you know and then we
can take them to the hospital and talk to the
doctors and nurses and did we miss anything and
you know what did you find the dispatcher has
all that stress and then right phone's ringing
again pick it up so i think there is a lot that
you're talking about i always said the same thing
there's nothing there's no more kind of um flow
state than loading hose after or cleaning saws
after an amazing fire and you've got that camaraderie
and you're tired and you're joking with each
other but on a ems and even more so in dispatch
you don't have that same ability to go from extreme
stress to all right clear the call take the next
one yeah yeah and i don't see that getting any
better actually uh anytime soon but yeah Going
back to your early life then, you ended up obviously
being in a very physical job. What were you playing
and doing as far as sport and exercise? Me and
balls never got along. My youth activity was
the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. I was in
a drum and bugle corps. And it was an all -male
corps. I think it still is. I'm not sure. It
was an all -male. Came from a Boy Scout troop
originally, and it was just one of those things.
I don't know, friend of a friend kind of thing.
Somebody got me involved in the whole thing,
and I, you know, beat on a drum and marched around.
It was a very, very physical activity, actually,
and it's very competitive. And it was summer
-based for the most part, you know, but you would
have practice all year long. But that was my
sport, if you will. I did that all through high
school and beyond. Cause I never got along with
balls really. It just, I was never, you know,
I played a little league and they would put me
in because I'm, I'm left -handed. So I got to
play because I would stand close. I wasn't afraid
of getting hit by a pitch and I could stand close
to the plate. And as a left -handed kid, you
know, it's hard to pitch too. So I, my on -base
percentage wasn't so bad, but yeah, that was
about it. So yeah, drum and bugle core was, was
where I grew up, if you will. That was my sport.
You mentioned as well. So, yeah, I'm not much
of a sports guy. You mentioned about your dad
recommending that you put your name on the list
for the fire service. When you were in the high
school, what were you dreaming of becoming then?
I don't know. I really, you know, I was, I don't
want to, you know, dramatize. I wasn't a lost
soul, but really I didn't have any. You know,
looking back on it, didn't have any particular
direction, kind of kicking that can down the
road. I'll figure that out later. I went to a
technical what was called time of technical high
school is basically a trade school. So, you know,
I had shop classes as part of my curriculum and
a lot of math and a lot of science. So I was
gravitating in that direction. Engineering, maybe,
but I wasn't a good enough student for that.
I think I could have been perhaps, you know,
all that hindsight kind of thing. But typically
kids that went to the high school I went to would
wind up in the trades or, you know, drafting
was still a thing back then. Print shop, they
had a big print shop there. So those sorts of
trade -like careers. And that's probably where
I would have wound up if it wasn't the fire department.
I had a bit of an electrician, I think, to be
honest with you. Walk me through then the front
door of the fire service. Firstly, I mean, just
as far as the training, because I know you work
a lot with UL now as well. You know, what was
the PPE that you had back then? And then when
you reflect back now, what were the tactics,
if different than they use today? So here's a
kind of an interesting thing. I came on the job
in 1980. It was probably 81 or 82, somewhere
in the first couple years of my job, that Chicago
had the first mandatory mask order on the Chicago
Fire Department. And it, of course, wasn't enforced
right away, but they didn't even have one. They
didn't even have a, you know, a SOP that said,
thou shall wear a mask. And so, and in... Chicago
switched to full bunker gear from three -quarter
boots to full bunker gear in, take a guess, 2006
is when they made the transition. I was already
in the fire service by that point. That's insane.
Right. So, yeah, that's when I got my first pair.
And, you know, it's a curious thing. And I guess
most firefighters, even today, if you ask them,
where did the term bunker gear come from? Why
is it called bunker gear? right so chicago had
bunker gear you weren't required first off you
bought your own gear at the time and you weren't
required to have bunker gear or wear it but it
was available to you for purchase if you wanted
it and what bunker gear was the whole purpose
of the pants and the boots was that you would
get out of your bunk in the middle of the night
and slip into those Right. That's that's when
and where guys wore that gear was when they were
working through the night and they would just
get up and that'd be next to the bed and you'd
step into your boots and pull up the pants. They
weren't as protective as they are today. Of course,
they were just heavy canvas pants and the coats
were basically just heavy canvas coats. But that's
that's where the term came from. So, yeah, some
guys wore bunker gear on occasion when it was
cold out because that's what it was for, to get
dressed warmly. Dress quickly and keep warm.
But they didn't transition to true bunker gear
until 2006. So that's kind of how far behind
they were in that respect. And so there was not
a culture of wearing your SCBA and all that for
probably the first half of my career. Yeah. And
that's largely changed. They still have now.
It could be, you know, it's not like I, you know,
monitor the current state of the SOPs on the
Chicago Fire Department, but to the best of my
knowledge, they still do not require the firefighters
on the roof to wear SCBA when they're on the
roof. Yeah, so they got some work to do in that
respect. So how that translates into tactics,
right? So I don't, you know, and this is something
that when I was... working with UL and talking
to guys about the different things that we were
advocating, if you will. Right. I think there's
a lot of this sort of myth about, you know, you
got to prove yourself. You got to be tough enough.
You got to, you know, you got to all that sort
of shit. And I would say, look, man, at first
off, my dad didn't have an SCBA quite literally
for almost his entire career. When he was on,
you know, as a street level firefighters, because
he obviously was on the job through 1990s, actually.
But, you know, they didn't even have them. You
know, when I first came on the job, 1980, there
was not a SCBA on the apparatus for every firefighter,
necessarily. There might be, there might not
be. There might be four guys and only three SCBAs.
You never really know. So that was the state
of things. So they didn't even have the option.
in a lot of cases. And even when they had the
SCBA and were wearing it, they didn't, they didn't
have hoods. They didn't have anything like the
coat that you have. And they were wearing three
quarter boots. And I got to tell you, they were,
they were some of the toughest son of a bitches
you ever met in your life, but they were not
crawling down that hallway without an SCBA. You
can't breathe 250 degree air. I don't care how
tough you are. You simply cannot do it. Right.
So they weren't fighting fires the way you think
they were. Right. They weren't crawling down
that hallway that you are crawling down today.
You're crawling down that hallway today because
you've got bunker gear and an SCBA. And that
enables you to do something they couldn't do,
which means you're in an environment that they
never experienced. They had the cool ahead of
themselves. They had a cool event extensively
ahead of themselves before they could even make
that entry. There's an in -between point, right?
Because, yeah, they did breathe smoke. But you
simply cannot breathe 250 degrees. I mean, it
closes your airway and you're done, right? So
you were doing something different than what
you think they were doing. You're telling me
that they didn't just breathe through a mustache
or a beard and it magically cooled the air to
breathe the village. Yeah. I mean, there was
some – I got to tell you. I did this shit because
this was, and I, I gratefully didn't do it for
very long, but I did do it. You know, you did,
you did this and it's helpful. It makes a difference,
but you're still not, you're not making the push
that you could make if you're properly dressed.
So is it great? You know, this tradition of aggressive
interior firefighting. Yes, but not what you
think it was. because you simply when you're
wearing what they were wearing when you're not
when you can't wear what you are used to wearing
today you simply cannot be in that environment
you cannot and they weren't right they would
cool from the front door or the front paw or
from wherever it was safe and possible to cool
and then they would advance to the extent that
they could advance um simply because they were
human beings and human beings have these limitations
you know So from a tactical standpoint, the fire
service has become, and I think this is part
of what happened and what we bumped into when
we started doing the work with UL, is you had
a fire service in the 1960s and 70s that now
they got bunker gear, now they got SCBAs. And
I mean, they had them before, but I mean, they
got them in a way that they could use them all
the time, right? They were available, they were
working properly, they were easy to use. And
so your gear caught up with the fires and then
actually surpassed it in a sense, I think, because
the fuel loads in the buildings sort of stayed
the same where the fires were, right? Where the
work was, were still these old buildings with
old fuel loads. And now I got really good gear
and now I'm kicking ass and taking names. And
then the built environment changed and you got
plastics and you got lightweight construction
and you got all of this. And now it's... It's
gotten ahead of us again. And I think that that's
part of what's happening. And why guys, why we're
seeing in this latter stage of my career and
even today, you're seeing where guys are getting
caught in these environments now, you know, buildings
coming down on them and the flashovers and things
like that. Firefighters didn't, in my dad's era,
my early career, that's not how you got burned
or injured or whatever in this kind of catastrophic
event. The building might fall down on you, but
that was... flat out stupidity when that happened
because you had to be there for so long for that
to happen that that was just foolishness um but
the the whole caught in the flash over burnt
to death kind of thing that didn't happen then
because you just you couldn't be there to begin
with you know um but we're seeing that now because
now we can be there doesn't mean we should be
but we can we've got the protective gear that
enables us to be in an environment that we either
shouldn't be in at all or we should not be there
but for a few seconds that it takes to change
the environment. Having a gypsy career in the
fire service. So I started in, I trained in Orlando.
First job was Hialeah in the Miami area. Then
went out to California for a few years, was on
a truck company. Then moved back to the East
coast, was on Orange County, very busy kind of,
you know, I was on an engine, but also rescue.
So now we're doing heavy. ems transport and then
the last one was the one that protects disney
so really kind of bizarre unique perspective
but it gave me that kind of 30 000 foot view
yeah and i started seeing a lot of the misinformation
so perfect example i go to california incredible
truck operations training you know we're doing
building construction we're just drilling and
drilling and drilling and drilling roof ops anaheim
was excellent at getting on the roof cutting
and then getting the hell off the roof straight
away And then I go back to the East Coast and
they're like, oh, we don't do vertical ventilation
here because it's lightweight construction. And
I'm like, but the whole building is lightweight
construction in California because of the earthquakes.
So what are you talking about? And you would
rather put three companies of people under the
roof than put a company on the roof to make a
chimney. And I've seen it many, many times when
I've been interior on a fire where the truck
company is above us. All of a sudden, everything
gets bare. Oh, there's the fire. You walk over
and you put it out. So I just started seeing
some of the fallacies, the way I was taught to
throw a ladder in Florida, the way that we treat
a car fire like a Class A fire instead of the
Class B fire that it actually is. So talk to
me about that. We're so siloed as a profession
with each city and county and a lot of times
not even really knowledge sharing unless you
go to conferences and have the humility to learn.
The word I always use is parochial. Silo is probably
a better word. But, you know, the American Fire
Service, and it's not that it isn't volunteer
in other places, other countries, it is. But
not to the extent it's here, because it's beyond
volunteer. It's local. It's community. And there's
all kinds of value to that. Don't get me wrong.
I'm not knocking any of that part of it. But
the downside to all that is you wind up with.
what I call family owned and operated fire departments,
right? The same small group of people in this
community have run this thing for forever and
ever and made it work, whether it's volunteer
transitions, maybe to pay out on call full time.
That doesn't always change things, right? It's
still this family owned and operated fire department.
So this is the way we do things here. You'll
hear that today in the Chicago Fire Department
is and has been one of the biggest fire departments
in this country forever. And you will still hear
guys say like it's gospel. Well, this is the
Chicago way. This is the way we do it here. That
can have some value. Right. But. In my personal
opinion, there's more of a downside to that than
not, because you're doing this, right? We don't
need to. We are so good. We are so knowledgeable.
We know. And that can just get you in trouble.
And it often does. And I think that's what happens
is, you know, Bruton Sini was a genius in many
ways. And one of the genius things he... did
was i or i heard him say he would ask you know
well why why do we do it that way right and and
the answer is well because that's the way we've
always done it and alan had the foresight or
the sense to ask the follow -up question well
why did we always do it that way and the answer
is because it works or at least it worked right
nobody sat down around the kitchen table and
say, okay, let's make up some really dangerous,
lame -brained, stupid, nonsensical tactics for
these guys, these new guys to learn that'll really
fuck them up, right? And let's do that to them.
Nobody sat down to do that, right? When they're
passing along their traditions and their understandings,
they're doing it because that's what worked for
them, right? That made sense to them. It worked,
and they want to share that knowledge with you,
okay? That's a wonderful thing. That's part of
what makes the fire service unique is this culture
of passing along knowledge and earning your place
and all those things. We have to be cognizant
that there's always a cost for any of this stuff.
The cost can be that you lose your perspective.
It can turn into we've always done it that way.
The example that might not be so relevant anymore
but that I often gave is that At least in my
early career, my early training part of my career,
I guess, when I was starting to get into training,
one of the things we would teach guys to do is
vent as they searched. All right. You're calling
along. You get to a window. What do you do with
it? You vent it. And I could usually get any
classroom full of guys and say, yeah, you vent
it. You vent the window. Well, why do you vent
the window? Right. Well, you want to get lift.
You want to be able to improve your visibility.
You want to have all these reasons why you would
do this. Right. I said, OK, that's all fine.
Right. But that can come with consequences. Right.
If they're not nobody suppressing. I said, you
know, where's the fire going to come? It's going
to come to your location and all this kind of
thing. But I would try to back it up and say,
OK, if I were to ask somebody in my dad's generation
why they vented that window. They would not say
because of lift. They would not say because of
visibility or survivability or anything like
that. They say you take that window, you stick
your head out the window, you take a couple of
breaths of fresh air, and now you can continue
your search. That's why they vented that window
as they searched. Not for all these other reasons
that we've invented to justify because we no
longer vent to breathe, right? So when we lose
our why, when we stop asking, well, why do we
do it that way? Does it still work? Then we can
lose that understanding. It was worth the risk
in my dad's time because they didn't have any
other choice. That's how you kept searching.
You don't need to do that anymore to keep searching.
So maybe in some situations there's alternative
tactics to use. So long -winded answer, I think,
and I went off my deep end, but I think that
our traditions, as valuable as they are, can
get in our way if we stop asking why. And if
you can't, as a senior man, senior officer, senior
person, as the person, you know. charged with
passing on this knowledge, if you can't answer
that young kid's why, that's his job is to ask
why. If you've got somebody who's not asking
why, that's scary to me. And you shouldn't be
complaining about they're always asking why.
They're supposed to ask why. And if you can't
provide them with an answer, then get out of
the way because you're not part of the solution.
You owe them a why. And if we can answer the
why, then it's great. But I think we own that
part of it. The topic I talk about that I'm probably
hated for the most is when I point that very
thing out about the American fire helmet. And
if you look over my shoulder, you can see I've
got the schematics on my wall. And I think it
says that the pattern was 1937. Firstly, at that
time, that was the latest and greatest that they
bought into. Secondly, you have a fire service
that then will ridicule arguably better helmets
around the world because they air quotes look
stupid. Now, I never became a firefighter because
I wanted to look cool. I became a firefighter
because I wanted to help people. And as soon
as there was better technology, I'm all ears.
A tick? That sounds amazing. I can see through
the smoke. Phenomenal. But I see that, you know,
and then what's the response you get? Well, it's
tradition. Like, bullshit. That's a hat. It's
a curious thing to me because I could do the
same thing. Every department I was on, we wore
the traditional helmets. And then when I was
in Algonquin, actually, they had transitioned
to them just before I got there. And they were
wearing the lighter colored gear, the brownish,
whatever. And for some reason, they wanted black.
And I really don't care. Maybe there's a big
difference, but I didn't care. And we were cycling
through the gear, and they wanted black. And
the guy that was in charge of it, the lieutenant,
was doing all the work and did a really good
job in all other aspects. And I said, if you
want black, get black. That's fine. You got black.
As they're getting the gear, I managed to secure
a European helmet. And I started wearing that
around. This is right at the end of my career.
Scared the shit, because they know that we're
getting new gear anyway. Scared the shit out
of them. They thought, oh, shit. You know, because
I had done a couple other things like that where,
you know, and they thought, oh, my God, is she
going to make us wear these helmets, right? I
feel the same way as you. It's like, and the
things that I would tell guys, I go, well. First
off, and this is where I worry because I was
never in the armed forces. I never served in
the military, so I can't really speak. I'm nervous
about using them as an example because I wasn't
there. I wasn't one of them. All that being said,
is the Marine Corps a tradition -bound organization?
Are they proud of their traditions? Absolutely.
right? I mean, any Marine will tell you, hoorah,
right? I mean, they put the cult in culture,
for crying out loud, and they're proud of it.
You will not see a Marine wearing a World War
II Vietnam era helmet in Tibet. I mean, it just,
they wouldn't, it wouldn't, right? They don't
wear, they don't wear their traditions in Tibet.
They wear their traditions in parades and at
ceremonies, right? And they're very proud of
it. as they should be and as we should be. But
why are you wearing your traditions into battle?
I don't get it. And then the other one I would
throw at them, and you're welcome to steal it
because it pisses them off, is I say, you want
to be an aggressive interior firefighter? Wear
a helmet designed for aggressive interior firefighters.
The helmet you're wearing was designed to shed
water as you were standing outside the building.
It was to keep the sparks in the water. It was
worn with a raincoat. It was meant to shed water.
That was all it was meant to do. You want to
be an aggressive interior firefighter and get
a helmet designed to do that. That'll light them
up. But the thing is, it's just simply saying,
look, to me, it's the scapegoat. It's the example
of the ego that's attached to this profession
of service. And you see people talk about, well,
it's for them. It's like, well, it's not, though.
Because you keep posting pictures of yourself
in your hat and you grow your mustache out and
it's about you. If it's about them, you don't
care how you look as long as whatever you're
wearing is going to help you affect a rescue.
And there was a bailout a few months ago and
it was like a second story ladder bailout. And
the moment he leant over the ladder, the helmet
came off. You know what I mean? So what if he'd
fallen and a simple, you know, better helmet
would have saved his life, but instead he died
of a... you know a fracture skull fracture so
this is the point is like that to me the tradition
is camaraderie and service and teamwork and courage
that's the tradition of the fire service what
we wear is just the equipment that's it and we
have to disconnect those two and then let's talk
about fitness too if you really are all about
performance then why the hell aren't you the
front of the line advocating for the rest and
recovery and the shifts that will actually forge
performance and fitness standards And, you know,
mindfulness and all these things that are going
to create the flow state of a high level operator
as a paramedic, as a firefighter. But you're
not. You just bought a hat. That doesn't make
you an amazing firefighter. Yeah. Yeah. It's
it's an easy rabbit hole to go down, you know.
And this was another thing that Bruno had said
to me. in an off -site conversation about these
helmets. He said, you know, my wish for you is
that you're still around when America makes the
switch, that you're still here, that you're still
in the fire. And it didn't happen, right? But
it was one of, you know, again, with Alan, it
was just that insight that, you know, this needs
to happen, right? And it's possible someday we'll
come around. And I'll tell you, so here's another
thing, and I could be wrong on this, but as long
as we're going to beat this one up, we were gravitating
as a country toward not so much the European
one, but I think we would have gotten there because
the very traditional New Yorker, Boston, whatever,
Chicago style, was going to more of a metro helmet,
right? So it was rounder in shape and shorter
brim and that sort of thing. And that was, yeah,
that was the trend in the country. until 9 -11,
right? And then the face of the fire service
became New York City, as it naturally would have,
right? And from that moment on, every firefighter
in the country wanted to wear that helmet. I
believe that that took place. I watched it happen.
I was before and after. And, you know, and I
think that stopped that. trend toward a different
style helmet is that we all wanted to look that
way now because you know we were america's heroes
all of a sudden and um and that became the image
of america's heroes so yeah that's that's how
we want to look i i'm 100 in agreement with you
i can't understand um because you know and it's
it's funny going back into probably the 1990s
again chicago's still wearing three -quarter
boots not just the leather helmets but um And
some European guys are riding in Chicago. They
came to visit. They got permission to ride on
one of the rescue squads. And they've got their
gear with them, right? And the guys in Chicago
in the squad, they're putting it on. They're
putting the helmet on and the way the face piece
clipped in and everything. And they go, this
is cool. This is great. This is great. I'd never
wear it, but this is great. Their intuitive response
was, I get it. This makes perfect sense, right?
But I'd never wear it because it don't look right.
Well, just to underline, so you're a generational
firefighter and you were the chief of training
in Chicago Fire Department and you have this
perception. I'm just going to leave it right
there. Okay. Well, so kind of as a tangent to
that, which I think is very important, you've
talked about, you know, a revered fire department
that when we look behind the curtain, didn't
have mandates for SCBAs for the longest time,
didn't have mandates for bunker gear. for even
longer, which blows my mind. So let's talk about
how do we turn the ship around? There's no question
in my mind from what I've witnessed in the 20
plus years that I've been either wearing a uniform
or doing this now, that one of the challenges
obviously is ego. And then this, again, this
kind of projection of what a fire department
should look like. But then we also see all the
funerals. So we know that the way that a lot
of these things are done is not working. How,
you know, what were the barriers to change in
Chicago fire on these areas? Because there must
have been people beating the drum saying we need
to make the change back then, too. And then how
do we, you know, how do we overcome those barriers
in 2025 so we can really forge a healthy, high
performing fire service in America? Yeah. Chicago
makes a bad example because they're. It's not
just the fire department. The city itself is
unique in a lot of different ways because of
its political history and the state's political
history and stuff. I often say there's, you know,
the agenda of every meeting in the city of Chicago,
regardless of the department, is exactly the
same. The first question, something comes up,
what's item number one? And item number one is,
you know, get bunker gear for the fire department.
Okay. uh i got a question do we have to well
no okay next item you know if the answer is no
if we don't have to they won't do it um and and
i think that that permeates everything in the
city of chicago every department they kind of
just get on this effort you know we're not we're
not going to be able to do it if we don't have
to then unless they're compelled We're not going
to do it. And so there's just this inertia that's
built into the culture, not just the fire department,
but the city of Chicago. There's this culture
of inertia that we don't we don't do anything
that we're not compelled to do if it wasn't our
idea to begin with. You know, and even then,
any idea internally that comes up, well, we don't
have to do that, do we? No. OK, next, you know.
and i think that was really the because we you
know the bunker gear i mean honest to god we
tested we had somebody wearing bunker gear on
and off in the city of chicago fire department
probably for 15 years right we were always testing
it and that was the way they kicked that can
down the road oh yeah we're still testing that
we're you know but um and i don't know why they
finally pulled the trigger i don't know if it
was you know somebody uh somebody got hurt or
whatever i don't i don't know what it was that
compelled them but they finally did Anyway, I
think if we're going to look at how do we make
these fundamental changes, I really do think
that ultimately it's going to be through the
union, through the international. And they're
on board with a lot of things, health and safety
-wise and stuff like that. But when they make
the connection, when they connect the dot, and
if somebody from the international were to publicly
say, you know what, these helmets have got to
go, that will change the conversation. But you
need somebody in the international that's got
the courage or the sense and really believes
that this is the case, that these have got to
go. um and and we have to find a way to to make
that happen i think then because once and i've
often felt this if you had any one major city
fire department switch to the different style
helmets that that would break the mold right
now it's okay right now now somebody else can
do it because one major department did it you'd
only need one chink in the armor and certainly
wouldn't happen overnight but you'd need that
first one And that first one might need to be
the international and those sorts of things.
Same thing with with the I remember a union official
in Chicago and one of the when some of the sleep
studies first started coming out. Right. This
is all post 9 -11 when we had money for the first
time to do things and look at things and all
that. And I remember the whole sleep study stuff
when it first came out. And this guy said flat
out, he said, I am not going to be the one that
gets blamed for the loss of the 24 -hour shift.
Because that was the assumption at the time was
that you're going to have to go to a 10 and 14
or an eight -hour shift or whatever, right? So
that you're not up for 24 hours. He says, I'm
not going to be the guy that loses that shift,
right? And that's as far as he could think through
the thing. So if that's where they're starting
from, then it's never going to happen. And I
think that's changed. But I also think that some
of these other things, if the international isn't
on board, I don't see them happening. I've called
them out before for the simple fact that our
international leadership is out of Boston now.
And Boston works 24 -72. And yet there has been
zero. conversation about well if we work 24 72
why shouldn't the rest of the country work 24
72 so putting the helmets on you know aside from
it that's that's you know obviously just a a
separate conversation it's not you know not a
hill i want to die on but the work week is and
this is what really disappoints me like fairfax
they still work 56 hours so again shows the absolute
epic failure of leadership with that administration
but now the current one works a 42 hour work
week And there's looking across the country of
these 56 and this mandatory overtime, these eight
-hour weeks and these suicides and all the things,
and they're tight -lipped. And I say, shame on
you. Like, you know better. You actually enjoy
that work week. Your men and women are enjoying
that work week. And you're watching, not to mention
the federal firefighters that are working 72
hours. So if we're talking about courage and
leadership, the IAFF needs to stand the fuck
up and talk about the work week. Yeah. i i agree
with you i i just you know um and and that sort
of thing has to happen you know there needs to
be a more of a groundswell right of you know
push for these sorts of things and and i don't
know and you would have a better sense of this
because of you know your background but um I've
always, you know, one of the bones I always had
to pick with unionism in this country in general,
right, as compared to the model in other countries,
right, is that, you know, they look at health
and safety. These are basic fundamental industrial
hygiene issues, right? They're not looking at
it as, you know, this is just, you know, your
workplace should not be contributing to your,
you know. or should not be a detriment to your
health and your welfare, right? I mean, and that's
industrial hygiene. That's a simple, basic concept.
And we get it all messed up with all these, with
the traditions and the this and the that. And
it's just, you know, as a union, you should be
all about this, you know, what makes the workplace,
you know, the safest possible workplace I can
provide for my employees. That's what you should
be advocating for. and be damned their traditions
you know that's not your job that's their job
if they want to preserve some traditions or something
that that's their business right that's that
administration's business that's the organization's
business the labor union i think should be that
that radical voice that says these other things
are more important yeah and um you know part
of it is where and i think you hit on it and
it's not It's just the look where it's located,
you know, and where it's where its officers come
from, where its people come from, the internals.
Right. That is probably the most tradition bound
part of the fire services in that part of the
country. So you could expect the changes to be
a little more difficult. Right. Because culturally,
they grew up with all these, you know, if they
grew up in California, you know, where they they're
proud of their helmet. They don't want to give
up theirs either. But, you know. Completely different,
right? And a completely different sense of, you
know, the built environment and a lot of things.
But those guys don't make it into the hierarchy
of the international because they're not in that
part of the country, right? And that's how those
things tend to work, right? If you have to be
around it, you know, to be a part of it. But
that's my take. I think the... We're making changes,
but if we want to accelerate it and if we want
to get over those next big humps, I think the
international has to be on board. Well, there
is a groundswell. The Florida, we have 10 departments
that have gone to the 2472 in the last two years.
Actually, just the other day, an Illinois department
outside Chicago became either the first or second
in your state. We've got Tennessee. We've got
North Carolina. Plano, Texas just became the
first in Texas. And there's another one near
them that's trying to become the second. So there
is this groundswell now. The governor signed
in the, I forget the term because it's not actually
the mandate, but a recommendation that the 42
-hour work week should be standard in the state
of Florida for firefighters. So there's enough
groundswell now that I know this is being acknowledged.
It's being rebuked. The Florida Fire Chiefs Association
had an email saying that they do not agree with
the 42 -hour work week. These are chiefs that
work 40 hours a week. So, you know, some of the
pushback is evident as well. But, you know, I
think there's a point now where enough is enough.
Like, are you going to come on board? Are you
still going to, you know, hide behind whatever?
And it's never, like you said, it's the 8s or
the 12s. Anyone that's actually looked into this
for more than half a second will see, no, that
wasn't an option because, as I've pointed out,
people that work 8s and 12s are ER physicians
and nurses and cops and corrections officers
and dispatchers. Do any of those professions
make you think of a svelte tactical athlete?
No. We know those shifts are awful for humans
as well. We have a house. We have a firehouse.
24s are great. Let's just give more rest and
recovery in between. Yeah. I agree with you.
You know, it's almost too obvious. I don't know.
It's a strange, I don't know, you've been looking
at this longer than me, and you probably have
a background that gives you more insight into
it. But Chicago actually turned down 24 -72s
years and years ago. The firefighters did. So
because of those single -role medics, right,
there was an FLSA lawsuit, right? There's an
exemption to the 40 -hour work week. through
FSLA for emergencies for firefighters. The way
it's written is for firefighters, right? That
they don't have to meet the 40 -hour maximum
or you don't have to pay the overtime for firefighters.
Well, in Chicago, they have this large group
of paramedics that aren't firefighters. They're
not cross -trained. So they're single -role medics,
right? So there was this, they had to do something.
They had to reduce their hours or they'd be paying
them overtime every week. So they went to the
one in three for the paramedics, and they proposed
that, well, let's just put the whole fire department
on the one in three, and the firefighters didn't
want it because it would be different because
they'd lose their Kelly day, right? They'd lose
that five days off, and they wanted to keep that
five days. And those are nice. They are. But,
yeah, they turned down the one in three because
they didn't. I don't know. Five days off every
three weeks versus three, well, not even three,
that was two days off, really, if you look at
the math. But yeah, the 72, every single shift.
Yeah. So yeah, we turned it down. And I was like,
okay. And I think the union was even on board
at the time. It was one of those, you know, the
vote was, no, we don't want to do it. It's like,
what are you going to do? This is what's interesting.
We'll get up this topic in a sec, because I want
to get back into the training side. When I did
that presentation in California, which I don't
normally do, but that was the only thing that
I really talk about these days as far as if I'm
going to stand in front of a group. In California,
it was like blowing their minds. They never even
had the concept of a shorter work week given
to them. Like you said, they're an echo chamber
in themselves. But it's just simply when you
do the math. If you distill down that the average
person works an eight -hour day, so a nine -hour
day with a one -hour lunch. If you do the same
math with the fire service, we don't work one
day on, two days off. We work three days on,
one day off. And then that ends up being not
10 days a month, but 30 days a month. And then
if you extrapolate that over the whole year,
we work 364 days a year. So we go around telling
our neighbors we have the greatest schedule and
I'm always home and I've got a side job. But
in the reality, that's... Just complete smoke
and mirrors. And like you said, if we go back
far enough in history, 24 hours in a firehouse
when you probably did run maybe a fire a week
and you're hanging out with your boys and you're
drinking and all that stuff. Yeah, totally different.
But that is not the fire and EMS combined system
of 2025. So we have to evolve. We wear SCBAs
for a reason. Our favorite athletes don't stay
up four days a week to perform. The whole sleep
deprivation thing, that alone, I just can't figure
out. Because that's so patently obvious. I mean,
I don't think that's controversial at all anymore,
what that does to you. And, you know, it's just
accepted that, okay, you have to avoid that at
all costs, unless you're a firefighter. Then
we'll screw it. Then we'll do it. Or worse yet,
a paramedic. I mean, these paramedics in Chicago,
they're, you know, I mean, literally, And it's
not just the busiest of the busy. You're averagely
busy. Is there such a thing as, you know, your
middle of the road ambulance? They come to work
in the morning. They get their first run. You
know, oftentimes they leave them at the hospital
or whatever. I mean, they get and they're not
back in that firehouse for 24 hours. You know,
they get their meals handed to them. Quite literally,
they come in, somebody hands them their meals
and they go off on the next run. And that's common.
That's as common as the day is long. They do
not stop moving for the whole 24 hours. There's
no downtime whatsoever. And they do this day
in and day out and day in and day out. It is
destroying people. And a lot of times when they're
short enough, right, and if the guy is desperate
enough financially, he'll do that every other
day indefinitely because there's that much work
available. Well, this is the thing. When you
hear the cancer conversation, no one talks about
the fact that sleep deprivation is a known carcinogen
or shipwork. When you talk about the mental health
conversation, no one talks about the fact that
the way that you process trauma and that you
heal is when you're asleep. So it's the amplifier
for everything that would kill us, the heart
disease, the strokes, all the things. It is directly
related, directly correlated. Yet it's the one
thing that we could change that would impact.
all the deaths from all the different reasons
and like you said there's a resistance to it
yeah go figure well the other side of the conversation
too while we're talking about chicago al capone
obviously is a well -known gentleman and that
was out of alcohol prohibition and when we finally
as a country went this isn't working we have
gangsters murdering everyone we we stopped And
then was born drug prohibition, Harry Anslinger.
And, you know, basically between job justification
and racism, he became, you know, reefer madness.
And now we've seen what we've seen today. And
this is a conversation that we need to be having
as well. If we look at the proactive elements
that would make Americans happier and healthier.
That would then alleviate a lot of the stress
on the hospitals, on EMS, and we wouldn't have
these insane call loads as well. But there's
zero conversation about decriminalizing addiction,
not smuggling, not selling, but addiction, about
the health of the nation. We're 70 % obese or
overweight, and we wonder why our EMS system
is crumbling. Well, make people healthier, like
you promised, for example, a year ago in election
time. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. All right. You mentioned
data as well. So this is coming from UL. Talk
to me about the importance of studies. But I'd
love to also contrast that with, as you alluded
to earlier, when the call for data sometimes
is put as a deliberate hurdle for progress. So
I think the great leap that UL. is helping us
make, right, is that we've reengaged with the
technological and scientific part of our profession,
which we were once upon a time engaged with and
then got disengaged from, in my view of it. So
we went along, you know, post -World War II,
and actually, maybe even leading up to, but primarily
post -World War II into the 60s, right, with
the space race and that age and all that. I mean,
technology, that was the thing. Everybody wanted
the latest, greatest, right? And the fire service
really was no different. that's when most of
the equipment and the technology and stuff that
we're familiar with and that we've developed
and refined during the course of our lifetimes
came into being. I'll give you my favorite example
was the Chicago Fire Department under Robert
J. Quinn, who was the fire commissioner for,
I don't know, 50 years or some ridiculous thing.
Before he became mentally ill, which he truly
did, he got a little wacky, but they kept him
in office. During the prime of his career, he
was an innovator. He was a forward thinker. Chicago
Fire Department had a fleet of maybe six, eight,
maybe more high -pressure pumpers. Now, if you
try to introduce that into the United States
right now, they go, ah, that's European, that's
somebody else, that's whatever, that's not the
way we do it. It is the way we did it once upon
a time, at least in Chicago, and there were other
places. And the rank and file hated them. And
the reason they hated them, because the guys
that were assigned, if you had one in your area,
they would send it on the initial response. Those
guys could lead out and get water so fast they'd
steal your fire from you. That's why they hated
them, not because they didn't work. They worked
so damn well that the guys hated them. Or so
the story goes, right? And that's from my dad,
right? So it's not firsthand, but it's pretty
close. So they had these things, right? The fire
service as a whole and this backward place that
I keep complaining about was a forward -thinking
place at one time, a very forward -thinking place
at one time. The Chicago commissioner was famous
for inventing or at least adopting and implementing
the snorkel. piece of apparatus that you don't
see around much anymore. But it was an articulating
platform. It was one of the first articulating
platforms that was ever put out. But then we
lost connection with the, in my mind, the science
and engineering that surrounds our core mission,
which is putting off fires, right? How did this
happen? Well, I think a couple of things happened.
One is we got so damn busy and so damn poor and
we could hardly keep up. Right. So 60s and 70s
and the stagflation that was happening and the
cities were burning and the fire departments
were just trying to keep their heads above water.
Right. And they weren't thinking about research
and development and things like that. And then
on the heels of that comes all these new mandates,
EMS, hazardous materials, public education, you
know, all these other things that are getting
piled up on top of that core mission. And you're
so busy trying to adapt to that and implement
that, that you, again, start paying less and
less attention to that core mission. And to the
point of this part of the discussion, the science
and the engineering that underpins that core
mission. You know, I always like to say when
I was making presentations, they called it Fire
Engineering Magazine for a reason. It used to
be the Fireman's Journal, and they very deliberately
in the 1940s changed the name to Fire Engineering
because they wanted it to reflect the reality
of the American fire service. It's becoming more
engineering -based, more science -based, all
that kind of stuff, and they wanted to reflect
that. So it has been part of our history and
our culture off and on. for decades, for generations.
And I think the generation that we're most familiar
with is always ours and the one or two preceding
ours, right? And in those generations, it got
lost for a while. And I think UL has helped us
bring that back, right? Is that there is a science
and an engineering that underpins our core profession
and we need to be versed in it if we're going
to be good at what we do. And they're giving
us the ability to do that. So it really has very
little to do with whether or not you open up
the nozzle from inside the building first or
outside the building first. And they couldn't
give, I don't know anybody at UL gives a rat's
ass which you do or when. That's not what they're
about. That's not what they're trying to do.
They want to give you the information you need,
really good information, raw data, raw information,
you know, distilled in a way that it can be digested,
but still fundamental information that you can
use, actually use and apply. to make better decisions
on the fire ground. That's the mission. That's
the goal. And I think they're doing an exceptionally
good job. And now they've taken on, they've become
so successful, UL FSRI, that part of UL, is that
they've taken on a much broader mission now as
well that many of us probably don't pay a whole
lot of attention to. But the whole, the like
close before you goes, the whole public service
aspect of it, right? the idea is that you've
got to make the world more fire safe. And how
do you go about doing that? So they're expanding
into those areas as well, more so. My little
piece of it was trying to translate as best I
could to somebody who didn't have the time or
inclination to pay as close attention to it as
I would or somebody else might. You know, we
all want. I remember very early on, you know,
guys would say, you know, I don't need to know
all that. I just need to know, you know, tell
me what I really need to know. Don't give me
all that, you know, fancy smancy stuff. No, you
really need to know this. You really need to
know. And it's not, you know what, it's fire
science. It's not rocket science. You know, it's
not physics. It's really pretty simple, basic
stuff, right? If you've got the smarts. to get
that paramedic license you got the smarts to
understand anything you need to understand coming
out of ul it's not it's not beyond your ability
whatsoever so what's been interesting from the
the human part is like for example going back
to the to the shifts people will say well we
need to see data and i've started to realize
well where is that line Of just simple common
sense. So let me get this straight. You want
someone to do a longitudinal study if a 42 hour
work week is healthier than a 56 hour work week.
And then I look at, you know, the absence of
study because people like is that they are like,
no. And that's another good question, isn't it?
Why are we not studying the thing that's killing
firefighters the most? We're ignoring it completely.
So what I realize is that firstly, you know,
we've done a terrible job of educating the researchers
on what needs to actually be studied on the human
side I'm talking about now. But secondly, where
I see people asking for data a lot of times is
just so they can avoid making a decision. Well,
I need to see study. No, you don't need to see
a study. You're living the study. Locally here,
you have had five suicides and now you just had
four firefighters arrested for hazing. There
is no more study needed for fuck's sake. You
know what I mean? What you're doing is not working.
You need to make a change, period. So I think
this is the problem with the science world. And
we saw it during COVID and some other areas is
it's become very convoluted. And the areas that
absolutely need science behind them and need
studies are, you know, getting washed away from
all these calls for studies where they simply
aren't needed. There's things that you know.
you know, intuitively are a truth and we do,
we need to do no studies whatsoever. And then
as you alluded to, there are areas, especially
debunking fire service myths where we lean, we
need to lean back into the science again. Yeah,
I agree. I think the, and what I hope. um will
come from this is that maybe the example that
that ul has set over the last dozen years or
so starts to permeate into other the more human
aspects and and those sort of things because
um you know both kerber and madrikowski were
you know we'll tell you at any at a drop of a
hat This work has always actually been done.
This kind of research, there's been research
like this done. You know, it wasn't anything
that we invented, you know, but it wasn't being
used. You know, it'd get published in some arcane
journal somewhere, put on a shelf, and nobody
did anything with it, right? What you all did
differently was the whole, how do we make this
implementable? How do we get this to the fire
service in a way? How do you get the science
to the street? so that they could be used. And
I think that example might be useful in these
other aspects, right? As you said, the work has
already been done. It'd be nice if we did a more
modern one or whatever that, you know, there's
nuances to that. But to your point, the fundamental
work has already been done. We know what, you
know, but how do we get it in a usable form to
the fire service so that they'll take action?
Because I think that's part of the example that
UL has given us is how do you make this stuff
actionable? And a piece of it is you put firefighters
on your research panels. And so you make it very
much involve them quite literally in the process.
And they become, you know, not only do they become
your spokespeople, but. You all, over the course
of the years, has done a lot of things very differently
because the firefighters were there saying, no,
no, no, wait a minute. That's not what we need
or that's not what we mean or that's not what
we want to look at. And so they, you know, shifted
gears to accommodate that. And it's paid dividends,
paid really big dividends, I think. And perhaps
that's something that we need in these other
areas as well, is this more direct involvement
of the fire service in the research that is being
done. Or in some, you know, something like that.
And that puts me back personally to the international.
And just in case there's some, you know, like
Sean, my buddy old Sean and a few others, there
are people within the international that are
very much on board with all of this and want
to see it happen. Right. So it's not like they're,
you know, not engaged at all. But I don't think
the tipping point has happened just yet. I want
to go to some, you know, the highlights of your
career. But just before we do, while we're on
this topic, I mean, you talked about innovation
from the 50s, for example, that was then rebuked
that, you know, it sounded like it was very effective.
You know, we get the tarps over the car fires.
People are, you know, I would never do that.
But you see the demos and they seem to work really
well with zero war. So if you were king for a
day, removing all the egos and all the things
that we've discussed today. With the science
and the history and all these other elements
and the innovation that you've seen from around
the world, what would be some of the tactics,
innovations that you would bring to the American
Fire Service nationally that would help elevate
us? That's asking a lot. I think we've talked
a lot about them. And the helmet is the representative.
But I think just this whole idea that we don't
wear our traditions into battle. We should be
wearing, you know, our gear should reflect the
best state of the art that's available right
now. And I think a means to that is, you know,
a soldier typically doesn't have any gear with
his name on it, right? You're issued stuff and
then you give that back. And I don't know that
we really need gear with our name on it. kind
of thing. And that might be part of how you fix
that, right? Is that you get your gear is sized
for you, but it's, it's there, you know, for
you to use on that shift. And then it goes and
gets cleaned or whatever. And it might not be
the exact same helmet that comes back to you.
But it's the prop, it's what you actually need
to do your, to do your job. So, so I think that
the idea that the, the gear should reflect the
mission and not the traditions of the fire service.
would be one that I would spend my time on. Physical
fitness is the other one. And I came to this
very late. I got to be honest. I smoked like
a chimney until I was almost 50. So I was not,
by definition, I was not fit. If you're a smoker,
you're not fit. But the fitness, I mean, I would
ban the use of tobacco and vaping in the fire
service if I could. Just that would be cause
of dismissal. That is just so, you know, patently
not good for you, not good for your mission.
You can't, you know, again, if it's all about
them, then you shouldn't be using tobacco. Right.
Because you can't do both at the same time. You
can't you can't be a high performing firefighter
and use tobacco at the same time. So that and
that would probably be my my lead on the whole
health and fitness thing. And there would be
actual physical fitness standards. uh if i could
wave a magic wand you would have to do whatever
it is you know um i'm not i'm not the expert
out so you know but represented you know you
got to do so many push -ups or pull -ups or whatever
come on we we know you know there's no mystery
here you're either physically capable or you're
not and you have to maintain that throughout
your career i think those would be the big things
if we could Cause I think, I think the other,
the other ones are more easily digestible or
we've made enough inroads and a lot of other
things, but we're still struggling with the,
with the truly fit, the mental and physical fitness
and actually having, you know, hard parameters
that we adhere to and the gear, the whole, there's
still a lot of resistance with, with you know,
like the whole smooth bore debate and those sorts
of things like we do it, you know, that we do
it this way. And the other thing that I would
do is that there would be more regional fire
services than there are. I mean, California sort
of kind of does it. You were out there, so you
would understand it better. But the whole Cal
Fire thing, to me, kind of makes sense. I don't
know if it works the way I think it works, but
it kind of makes sense. My experience late in
my career in northern Illinois was there are
a lot of fire departments that would consolidate
if they could, but there's actually legalities
that get in their way. The state makes it more
difficult for them to do it, but they would like
to do it because operationally it would make
sense for them. But the parochialism within the
state, you know, the legislature is just, you
know, it makes it too hard to do. So I think
consolidation would be good. uh for parts of
the american fire service and i you know find
a way to facilitate that not shove it down anybody's
throat but the places that want to consolidate
and be more regional let them do it because where
it does happen it seems to be pretty successful
with fitness standards with you having you know
your father's career and your career i it's always
blown my mind because i didn't come into the
fire service tool my first job is 04 but we were
held to a very high standard In the fire academy
and then orientation at Hialeah, I mean, I guess
that class is still revered to this day because
they had a lot of time to kick our ass while
the non -certs went through all their training.
But the point being, the bar was set. high at
the front door. So in my generation, at least
none of us can turn around and go, Oh, it's not
fair for a fitness standard. When you knew exactly
what was expected of you in fire Academy, you
had to don gear, you know, throw hose and extra
cylinders on your back and climb stairs and drag
dummies and all the things. and yet when i speak
to the ocean lifeguards it blows their mind that
we don't have you speak to the you know special
forces special operations they they had no idea
that police and fire had no fitness standards
so where does that resistance come from and how
do we turn that around because it's not only
the performance obviously if you're opposing
fitness standards you're basically promoting
disease in the fire service yeah it comes from
two places um depending on Where you're located
and how big your fire department is, right? So
one place is in the truly rural and the smaller
town fire departments is where am I going to
get people if they have to meet these standards,
I'll have nobody. I have next to nobody now,
and if they have to meet these standards, I'll
have nobody at all. So that's part of it, and
that's a legitimate question that needs to be
addressed. And then the other part is some misguided.
ideas from the union again right they're protecting
jobs they don't want guys to lose their jobs
uh to which i think the answer is really simple
from here on right go ahead no we're not going
to affect anybody right now but from here on
we got we got it someday we just have to say
from now on starting with the next class this
is the way it's going to be And if you had done
that, right, during the course of my career,
the job has turned over three or four times,
right? You'd have, you know, you had three or
four opportunities. And you can actually see
it coming when you look at the demographics within
your job. If any, you know, fire department looks
at where their age is, you know when you're going
to turn over a lot of people, right? Just from
their ages. And you can say, okay, here's where
we want to implement this, right? Because this
is where we're going to get the biggest bang
for our buck because we're going to start. turning
a whole lot of people over and we'll have it
all done in five years or, you know, mostly done,
whatever. So it'd be easy to predict when your
best time is, right? So just do it, you know,
and you don't even have to take the full giant
leap right away. You just have to start with,
you know, some kind of standard. It's actually
a standard, you know. You know, there's all kinds
of fire departments that will basically, or I
should say their administrations. Their municipalities
will lie to you and say that they have physical
standards, but they don't. All you have to do
is look at their rank and file and you see that,
you know, those people aren't meeting any physical
standards. So, yeah, that's, I don't know, does
that answer your question? It's so frustrating,
you know, and I really think the upside of this,
perhaps, is that fitness has become a thing again.
in this country and wellness has become, people
are genuinely interested in this. There's a younger
generation that's generally interested. They
may be misguided in some respects, but that's
beside the point. They are generally interested
in how do I maximize my health and well -being,
right? We're talking about things about not lifespan,
but healthspan. You hear that more and more frequently,
right? So now that this has become part of the,
you know, more. more the broader discussion in
society this is the time to jump on this stuff
absolutely i've heard a lot of people you know
you hear this ignorant statement from lobby oh
well the problem is you know we have a recruitment
crisis because kids these days don't want to
work which is absolute kids these days as you
said you know are looking at um, the fire service
for what it really is. Cause when I came on,
I'm sure it was nothing when you were available,
but I had the internet, but it was just, you
know, smoky faces and saving babies was always
out there and how to ace your interview. That
was it. So, and it was post nine 11, you know,
um, that a 49 just came out. It was all guts
and glory. And, you know, no one was asking,
well, is this bad for us? Well, now Google it,
you know, and, and the good news, if you Google
is a 24 hour, a 24 72, a healthy shift. Now Google
tells you how great it is, which is amazing.
That shows you that we've put enough information
out now. But if you Google is firefighting healthy,
it will show you all the bad stuff. Now it's
not negating all the good stuff. This is why,
you know, we're still talking about it now and
neither of us are wearing uniform anymore because
we adore this profession. But we have to, you
know, address the bad things. So these young
candidates are looking at that going, well, I
could be a welder and make a lot of money and
be home. you know, every night with my family.
And I can get up and go, I can, with my 10 years
of welding experience, if I want to get up and
transport my family across the country, I can
do that and get a job as a welder with 10 years
of experience somewhere. That's going to mean
something to somebody. And in a lot of the fire
service, that means nothing, right? So that's
another thing I think that scares guys away.
We don't have portability. within our profession
and we need to do something about that it would
benefit everybody uh a great deal 100 well this
is what's kind of begun now is because we have
this 24 72 and people like wow you know i want
to go for example work in florida they're they're
not only you know a well -paid department and
you know a lot of calls but now they've got this
healthier work week so reciprocity has become
you know more of a conversation because it is
it's insane i can As a paramedic, my national
registry, I can challenge California's test,
which I actually did. I was trying to go back
years ago now. And then, all right, I'm a state
California medic again. But you're telling me
that the way I pull a cross lay, I have to go
back to school in Texas to be able to pull it.
It's insanity when we talk about it. And like
you said, the arrogance of, well, this is the
way we do it. Bullshit. If you've been a firefighter
for 10 years somewhere else, it's a lot of value.
to the way you did it there. Now, don't walk
through the door telling us how great your last
department was the whole time, but there's probably
a lot of things that you did there that we could
learn from in our department. So you'd break
down these silos, I think, if you had a lot more
reciprocity across the country. Yeah. It would
help. And I think it would help the recruitment
issue a great deal if guys knew that there was
some portability to their job. because I think
that it's especially for the smaller departments.
You know, like when I was out in Algonquin, you
know, we lost a lot of guys that would come on
because they would take tests, you know, throughout.
And as soon as a department with better prospects,
you know, they had an opening, they would move.
And so I think that's the fear in a lot of departments.
I'll keep losing people to the bigger departments
with bigger paychecks and all that. But that's
not necessarily the case, you know, because if
we have the reciprocity, then I can go milking
other departments as well. I don't have to, you
know, look for guys, give them an entrance exam
and put them through a recruit school and, you
know, take some of that away. If I could hire
guys that have already been trained and certified
and bring them right on board with, you know,
a month's worth of orientation or whatever. That
would benefit everybody. I think we'd all be
better off. And you could go after the fit firefighters.
Yeah. Well, that's what I was kind of alluding
to at the beginning is that with this whole kids
today don't want to work. Actually, I'm hearing
that a lot of departments are saying our young
fit recruits are really fit, fitter than they've
ever been because they've. grown up in this area
of crossfit and you know understanding physical
therapy and and you know sports massage and all
these things so they're getting great candidates
and what you were talking about with the the
lack of retention this is where the money is
for the 24 72 if you look at the overtime you
look at the the money lost have you just trained
and equipped a firefighter and paid into their
pension and then two years later they left after
medic school you know that's tens of thousands
of dollars that just walked out your door So,
you know, but people look at this like, well,
now you're trying to take our firefighters. Like,
no, the rising tide lifts all ships. When I was
testing 22 years ago in California, it was against
thousands of people and there were 30 jobs available,
three zero. That's it. So actually, I kind of
broke it down because we usually lost 25 percent
of every higher class through attrition because
the bar was set so high. I was technically my
class was technically the top one percent of
the list. So that's how competitive it was to
be a firefighter. And that's up until only 10
-ish years ago. So the money is all being wasted
downstream. You front load it. You open reciprocity.
You put in fitness standards. You're going to
attract the right kind of person that's like,
oh, you've got a fitness standard? Even better.
Challenging. They'll self -select, I think. I
mean, all kinds of industries and professions
have proven that. You raise your standard, you
get more and better recruits. Dropping your standards
doesn't do you any good. Never has. No. Well,
one more area that I want to get to the transition
and do some closing questions. You've got a very
long story career in all these different ranks,
from firefighter all the way through to chief.
When you reflect back now... What were some of
the career calls that you had? And it can be
obviously, you know, some of the big fires, but
also it might just be moments of kindness and
compassion that you remember. You know, it's
funny that the two that always come to mind first,
and it's actually three, were EMS calls. And
one was just a really good save on like a 13
-year -old autistic kid. that which is all you
know we find out later right but a kid with a
lot of physical and uh mental disabilities that
was an arrest right and and we had to save which
um you don't see so very often especially back
then um and uh and it just it just was one of
those you know you were certain it was just going
to go to be bad all the way around the parents
are right there to you know it was just This
is just going to be another one of these. And
it wasn't another one of those. It was just the
outcome. And the response of the family afterwards
to the firefighters that worked the call and
all that was as appropriate as it could possibly
be. And I just don't ever forget that one. It
was 20 years ago or more. I'll never forget that.
And the other one is very similar to that, but
on the flip side, one of the most tragic. I had
two crib deaths. within a week of each other.
And it was almost like deja vu. The second one
was almost like step -by -step identical to the
first one. Same neighborhood, same kind of apartment,
basement apartment, Hispanic families, you know,
it was just eerie how close they were. And in
both of those cases, in one case, the difference
was in one case, the kid might've been liable.
And the other one, the kid was already stiff.
So, you know, it was just like one of those,
you know, and it's help, you help, you help my
baby can do something. And it's, you know, you're
holding this stiff, you know, body and you're
like, oh, God. And those are those kind of things
that just never leave you, right? And so I tell
that story. I'm still working that one out, right?
Obviously, because I bring it up all the time.
But I bring it up as the example of, because
I tell, especially if I'm addressing. recruits
or young firefighters is don't let anybody ever
tell you that you'll get used to it or that it
gets easier because it doesn't. It gets worse.
It doesn't get better. It doesn't get easier.
It gets worse because they accumulate. They pile
on top of one another. And that's how this job
is going to kill you. And you think that if you
die in this job, you're going to die some. dramatic
heroic death, but you're not. The job is going
to kill you. You're going to be retired or on
disability or whatever at home alone, whatever,
and die of suicide or a heart attack or a stroke.
That's how the job is going to kill you. And
it's these incidents, these cumulative things
that you don't pay enough attention to that are
going to do it. And that's why those stuck with
me because especially the crib death ones came
about at about the same time. that i'm hitting
my stride with the whole ul thing and the teacher
i was doing a lot of teaching and a lot of you
know presenting and stuff like that so i had
fortunately had this opportunity to talk about
it a lot and process through it but that's when
a lot of that stuff really hit home for me is
that those it's those incidents that don't um
the other one that comes to mind and this is
um not so much incidents but uh a guy that i
knew pretty well i can't say he was a good friend
of mine but i knew him pretty well on the job
committed suicide right before i left um and
so we're talking about this you know amongst
the group around us uh you know at the office
and um Anyway, it came about that in the last,
I think it was the last two years or whatever,
from this guy, you know, seven guys that we knew,
anyway, seven guys that we all knew pretty well
had killed themselves in this short period of
time, right, that we knew of, right? This isn't
even counting the ones that are ambiguous. But
these were, you know, active members that killed
themselves in a two -year period, seven guys.
And that, again, was one of those, oh, my God,
what are we missing here? You know, how can this
be that this is going on like this? So those
are the things, those are the things that stick,
right? To me, there's, and I could come up with
a couple other success ones that, you know, you've
got to grab. First off, I think that the lesson
is that you've got to understand the impact that
these things are having on you throughout your
career. dismissing they're going to accumulate
right it's it's one and i know i'm bouncing all
over the place here but this whole idea of post
-traumatic stress disorder right uh you're all
going to have we are all going to have post -traumatic
stress whether or not it turns into a disorder
is in a large degree up to us what do we do with
that post -traumatic stress and and i don't think
that we're good enough yet at telling the fire
service is part of what you have to train and
educate your people about is you're going to
have this this is going to happen to you you're
going to have this traumatic stress that you're
going to have to deal with so start now don't
wait for it to turn into a disorder because then
it becomes problematic right you can live with
post -traumatic stress living with the disorder
is a little bit different thing So I wish I had
learned that lesson a little bit sooner. So that's,
you know, obviously that wasn't something that
we paid much attention to during most of my career.
But then the saving grace, I think, of the career
was that, and I'm going to forget names and locations
until I start on one, and then I might. But there
are places that I worked in Chicago. And even
in Algonquin, there was one. A guy who, you know,
where the firefighters had saved his great -grandfather
or something like that, right? And he still came
by the family. Somebody from the family still
came by the firehouse every year on the anniversary
to bring a cake and whatever like that. And I
had a couple of those experiences in Chicago,
too. One was up at Engine 108. where I was never
assigned, but I believed in that area for a while
and I experienced it there. And another one was
at Engine 23 where I did work. I was the captain
there. And a family where, you know, we had done
something for them decades ago, but they still
came by on a regular basis to thank the firefighters.
And those sort of things really stick. I'm not
really good at remembering incidents. I really
am terrible about that kind of stuff. What's
the worst fire you ever went to? I don't know.
probably the first one and the last one, I don't
know. But those sort of, those personal, you
know, especially when there was family, and another
one that sticks, and this is almost going to
be stupid, but, so I'm out on the west side,
battalion chief, 14th battalion, and a neighbor
of mine where I'm living, It works for Coca -Cola
or something. They're having some kind of raffle
through his job, right? Where they, you know,
silent raffle or something like that. And he
wants to, I don't know where he heard about this,
but he wants to raffle off dinner at the firehouse
as part of the raffle. And he's, you know, he
knows me and he doesn't know any other firefighter.
And I don't, I was like, yeah, fine. I don't
care. You know, we'll do that. We have people
over all the time. I talked to. guys at the firehouse
first and yeah yeah that's cool whatever uh anyway
some whoever wins it they you know two families
came and these guys at uh engine 38's house they
made pizza uh once a week usually on saturdays
they you know from scratch though the whole nine
yards right and it'd be literally the whole show
with everybody covered in flour but they make
a week's worth of pizza anyway We get these families
to come in with their kids, and they're all at
the perfect age, you know, 10 through 14 or whatever.
And they're all making the pizza with the firefighters,
right? And just couldn't have had a better time.
Nobody ever met. You know, they had no clue.
They weren't even from the city. They had just
won this silly thing. But that just, for me,
personified this whole, you know, when we talk
about service to the community and what this
is supposed to mean and all that. that was the
personification of it. Cause this was, I mean,
this is West side ghetto. Um, you know, these
are not the firefighters you would expect, uh,
you know, from the stereotype or the firehouse
where you would expect this to, to take place
from the stereotypes, but, but there it was and
they were all having a blast. Uh, and yeah, it
was great. It was fun to watch. I wrote in actually
in both of my books, um, about the back to bed
calls. And I've always said when people ask me,
you know, what are some of the highlights of
your career? Sometimes it was just a truck company
going to, you know, an elderly couple. The wife,
for example, has fallen out the bed. Maybe she
soiled herself. And you've got this man that
was probably very strong and able. now just crushed
because he's unable to pick the love of his life
off the floor and put her back to bed yeah so
the four of us go there we clean her up we put
her in fresh clothes we put her back to bed we
obviously check her medically and then we go
back to the station But you don't see that again
as we were talking, that projection of, well,
I'm an American hero firefighter, that it is
that kindness and compassion. That's tradition
in the fire service. And I always look back and
like, yeah, of course, cutting a roof four stories
up after being awake for all of four minutes
before. Yeah, that's pretty good. Go on interior
on a barn burner. Yeah, absolutely. But it's
those moments of kindness and compassion that
always stuck out with me. And I think that sometimes.
We forget that when we're talking about what
we do. It's always, like you said, you know,
duck walking and S -patterns. But what about
just simply putting someone back to bed? That's
as if not more important. Oh, absolutely. And,
you know, we had one, you know, we'll probably
do that. We can do this all day now. We'll remember.
We'll each remember one. And this is probably
not all that unique, but the guys in Algonquin,
they go, they had a heart attack. Someone had
a heart attack cutting his grass. They went back
and finished the lawn after they got him to the
hospital. They, you know, went back and cut the
rest of the grass and cleaned everything up and
put everything away and, you know, that sort
of stuff. And, you know, anybody really can work
a code. I mean, there's thousands and thousands
and thousands of people that can work a code.
Not everybody has the presence of mind to do
something like that spontaneously. And firefighters
do that. Not too many other people. And if we
don't tell those stories, then we don't make
that part of who and what we are, and the tradition
won't continue. So I think that's why I like
to tell those kinds of stories, because that's
how you make sure that it happens again, is you
tell the story. 100%. Well, you alluded to some
of the calls that, you know, that do haunt you.
And the PD calls are definitely some of the worst
ones in my mind, too. When you reflect back now,
what, if any, were the darkest places that you
got to? And then what are some of the tools you've
used to get yourself back into a good mental
state again? So, strange as this may seem, the
worst. came for me at the very end of my career
when I was fire chief and I had to fire people.
You know, I was never in a position that, you
know, you actually had that responsibility, right?
And I had to let some people go. And so that
was hard, right? And to this day, I don't. You
wonder about some of them and one in particular.
So Josh was a firefighter paramedic with us and
try to do the short version of the story because
it can get kind of long. But anyway, I get a
visit from a cop that says we need to interview
this guy. And he says he works a side job at
a hospital in the emergency room and they're
missing some drugs at the emergency room. So
we're talking to everybody that works there.
So I got to talk to your guy. Okay, fine. So
we talked to the guy. Nothing happens. I don't
hear anything about it. And Josh comes to me
afterwards and said, I swear to God, not me,
nothing to do. I'm not even going to work there
anymore. That place is crazy, blah, blah, blah.
He leaves. And he does. He quits working there.
He eventually goes to work at some other hospital.
Anyway, they wind up missing drugs. They got
him on film, right? So within a year, this all
happens. And then they revoke his license, or
suspend his license. Once they suspend his license,
by law, I can't employ him anymore. That's the
way it worked in that part of the world. So I
start having to process his dismissal. Now, the
first thing we did, and this was one of the silver
linings, so to speak. But in the process of this,
before I found out that... I found out that they
caught him the second time from the union president
who called me and trusted me enough to call me
and said, what can we do for this guy? And I
said, well, what you got to do is you got to
get him in a resident program. And then at least
for 30 days, I can't touch him. Nothing I can
do. He's in a resident program that buys you
30 days to figure out what to do next, which
he did. I helped him find him. program they could
get him and so we did we were able to do that
for him and he did get clean for a while but
the what makes this story a story i got to tell
is that josh killed himself eventually or od
one of the two not really sure which it was but
he didn't win right the drugs one the fentanyl
one and so that having made that decision and
living with that decision is the hardest thing
i ever did So, because you're, you know, you're
always, you're always, you know, well, what if
I hadn't fired him? What if I had, you know,
given him a second chance? You know, there's
all the what ifs, what ifs, you know. And intellectually,
I know that I'm okay. You know, that that was,
that I was within my bounds and I was doing what
I had to do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I still fired the guy and he still killed
himself. that don't go away. And you can't expect
it to, right? You have to just find a place to
put it and manage it. How long had Josh worked
in the fire service? He was probably, I would
say 10 years, maybe. He was a vet. He had spent
a little bit of time in the Air Force, I think
it was. Had done some tours. He was still in
the reserves, so he would still do his reserve
work. One of the things that we found is, after
all this, right, to the family, was that he had
struggled with this from the time he was a teenager,
right? The combination of depression slash drugs,
you know, and the details I never got, but they
did come and say, you know, he's been fighting
this demon since he was a teenager. So we knew
that it wasn't, you know, just a recent sort
of thing. And in a way, that made me feel a little
better. This was a lifelong struggle that we
got tied up. It wasn't something that happened
just because of the job or the military service.
This is a conversation I've had a lot more recently.
I've been a student now for nine years, listening
to so many lived stories and experts. But when
you look at it, Most of us that joined the fire
service have had some things happen when we were
younger that drove us into this profession that
we wanted to serve. We wanted to be there on
people's worst day. We didn't want people to
feel the way that we felt when we were younger,
whatever the subconscious things are. And so
having that conversation at the front door, acknowledging
that and saying, look, if you've towed the line
here. there's a good chance that you've been
through some shit in you know before this and
that's okay but if we bury it down and don't
talk about it that becomes a fracture to your
foundation or an addiction that we didn't see
and that's still going on i lost a classmate
at my last department to an opioid overdose same
exact thing but if we have that conversation
same but if we address it If we talk about it
the same way as we're going to PT you for the
next X amount of weeks and we're going to test
you for the next year on probation on all your
operational skills, we're going to have X amount
of therapy sessions and we're going to turn some
of those struggles into strengths. I think we
would make such a huge dent coupled with obviously
rest and recovery in this mental health side
because, yeah, the reason why you put the uniform
on, there's a high, high chance that you're carrying
some stuff in. And so we don't go, oh, well,
that's where he was an addict when he was young.
So that's why I did it. No, you're the responsibility
of us now as a profession, you know, so how do
we mitigate whatever we brought in the front
door and create that post -traumatic growth and
help them overcome, you know, whatever it is
they're struggling with. Because now as we sit
here in 2025, you know, Ibogaine, Ayahuasca,
even if other talk therapy hadn't worked, we
have plant medicine options that are. and making,
you know, incredible successes in the addiction
world now. So I think this is, you know, the
moral injury that you have with Josh and that
feeling of, you know, not being able to do enough
or was that a ripple effect that caused him to
take his life or overdose? Turning that around
because we didn't know about that stuff back
then. We couldn't have these conversations, but
we can today. And just like we were talking about
the resistance to innovation, the fire service,
you know, EMS, law enforcement. We need to look
at this and go, you're standing in front of me
and there's probably a good chance that you've
had X. So let's start working through that now
because then you become stronger. You become
more empathetic. You'll be able to relate to
people on the street because you were there.
You were an addict. You did grow up around domestic
violence, whatever it is. But if we push it down
and ignore it and just box check some psych test
at the front door. We're never going to address
these things. So I think Josh's story is an opportunity
to really have these conversations of how can
we do it better this next generation. Yeah. I
think we need to, in some respects, you need
to start with we're all damaged goods. Just start
with that assumption. Okay, look, we're all damaged
goods. Identify where you were hurt and what
we need to pay attention to so we can do it right
from the beginning and make sure we're not contributing
to the issue. Because all these things are going
to happen. The stuff that happens on the job
is going to happen. There's no preventing any
of that. The one that always rubbed me the wrong
way was the don't worry, you'll get used to it,
kid. That's the wrong answer. Yeah. At least
I never got used to it. I had an interesting
thing happen about two years ago now. I was on
a flight back from England. I've been taking
care of my dad after knee surgery. And we're
on the tarmac. Doors are closed. We're about
to push off. And I've got those noise -canceling
headphones on. And I'm looking forward. And it's
a 747, so whatever it is, 10 seats wide. And
I see commotion in front of me. People are looking
behind. So I pull the headphones off and look
back. And one of the passengers, the last guy
that came on, basically just keeled over in the
aisle. And I always kind of joke because you
hear these stories. Well, there were 10 cardiologists
on the way back from a convention. No, not on
this flight. I was the only one that had any
kind of emergency medicine experience. And there
was some good Samaritans all around. The cabin
crew were phenomenal. But as far as a team of
medics, for example, that could work together
or ER physicians, there was none of that. End
up working the code. Very long story short, it
goes on. The fire come originally. Then the London
paramedics come on, and I'm working them in the
galley now. And then finally, I said, look, you
guys good? I'm going to get out of the way so
that you can work. Go to the toilet on the plane,
wash the blood off my hands, and then go sit
down. Very different than if I'd run a call with
my crew. and it kind of hit me and i was like
why why do i feel so weird after 14 years of
doing codes and you know hundreds and hundreds
of people and i was a zero code save guy so everyone
fucking died when when i was working the code
but what i realized after is like oh shit this
is how you're supposed to feel when someone dies
and you realize so it's not that you get used
to it you just push it down you just ignore all
those feelings but they're still in there So
now I think that was five years after taking
the uniform off. I'm working this code. I sit
down. There's no off gassing. No one else around
can really relate like we would in the back of
a rescue or an ER desk. And yeah, and it was
so jarring. And, you know, I was able to talk
to the cabin crew and kind of help them kind
of debrief a little bit. And it was great. But
for the first time, I realized that this is how
it's supposed to feel when someone dies in front
of you. But we do get so. And we don't get used
to it. Like you said, we become numb to it. Those
are two very, very different things. Yep. Yep.
All right. Well, I want to kind of round off.
So just before we go to the closing questions,
what was it that made you finally pull the trigger
to transition out? And we know that a lot of
our men and women do struggle. when they transition,
you know, that loss of tribe, purpose, identity,
et cetera. What was that transition like for
you specifically? So I got lucky, I think, because
I retired in degrees. You know, I left Chicago,
but I didn't leave the fire service. And, you
know, so that was the bulk of my career, and
that's where I still identify most with. If somebody
asks, I say I was a Chicago firefighter, obviously.
And but then I could do this other thing that
I really never expected to do. That whole administrative
fire chief thing was never on my radar screen.
You know, that was nothing I could ever think
of in Chicago. And then when I left there, I
could leave on my own terms. And I left there
largely because I was spending so much time with
the lecturing and the presentations and stuff
with DOL that I wasn't really attending to my.
And they were very good about letting me go when
I needed to go and all that kind of stuff. But
and like I said before, with the whole 40 year
thing, you know, I sort of mentally prepared
myself for leaving at that time. But even once
I left Algonquin, so April 1st, 2019, I'm done.
I don't put on a uniform anymore, but I'm still
involved with Underwriters Labs and the work
that they're doing. doing classes you know presenting
that information stuff so i'm staying in touch
with the fire service still for a couple more
years i still got my foot in it and all that
and then probably three years ago to between
two and three years ago i just kind of wound
that down i just kind of got to where okay i'm
not you know when i want decided i wanted to
start traveling full -time And so leading into
the Appalachian Trail thing, so that was 2023
was the prep when we hiked it. So the year before
that was the prep. And so that ate up a whole
lot of time. And of course, once you're on the
trail, you're on the trail. We were on the trail
for five months. The plan was six. So by that
time, you know, I pulled myself away pretty much
100 percent. And I had done maybe one or two
things. So the short story is I retired in pieces.
I didn't just have a day. Well, boom, I'm not
doing this anymore. Um, so that, that I, you
know, I think helped me a whole lot. Right. And
if you, if you are in a position where you can
plan that out a little bit in some way, shape
or form, I would encourage guys to do that. You
know, if there are things that you can do that,
that involve, you know, like you see a lot of
guys, it's more common out East, uh, New York
in particular where they're volunteers, wherever
it is they live, because they, they tend to go
from New York city to volunteer right away. They'll
stay in the volunteer service for a while after
they retire. If you can do that, I think those
things make sense. There's any number of retirement
communities that are 90 % firemen, I think. Chicago
has that. They all follow each other to Arizona
or Florida, wherever they're going. They keep
in touch that way. So, you know, all those sorts
of things make sense to me. But so I got lucky
in that respect. And then the other thing that
I'm not sure how I came to this. And I think
maybe my dad, just by example, you know, firefighting
was what he did. It wasn't who he was. You know,
I mean, he was proud of what he did and, you
know, he identified with it. And most of his
friends, his best friend in the world with two
doors down from him when he died. And he was
a firefighter as well. They worked together for
decades. But I never got a sense that that's
who he was. Right. He didn't at family gatherings.
He didn't tell fire stories. You know, he had
many friends outside the fire service. So I think
you got to. be cautious about your entire identity
being this, I'm a fireman kind of thing, you
know, and you've got to be somebody else besides
that. I see guys, and this is a personal thing,
just because I don't know that it's widespread,
but this was just something I experienced out
in Algonquin, events that we would do in the
community and the local VFW post, you know, and
you see these guys at parades and stuff that
were Vietnam vets. and still put on their uniforms
at these events and stuff like that. And I just
got a sense with a couple of them with that,
that that was the last important thing that they
did in their life, right? They still kind of
are still living with that because they don't,
they didn't, you got this sense that they didn't
feel that they accomplished much after that,
you know, or didn't do anything of important
after that. And that struck me as just kind of
sad. I mean, I was glad that they still had a
place to, to be that and to be proud of what
they did and to get the recognition. But it was
also sad to see that, you know, just the situation
that they appeared to be in. And I think there's
just concrete steps that any of us can take to
make sure that doesn't happen to us. Have some
interests, have something besides golf outside
the fire service, you know, be somebody besides
a firefighter. I think it was important. It was
to me. And, excuse me. So I think that helps
a whole lot. Makes a whole lot of sense. When
you were hiking the Appalachian Trail, I would
imagine there was a lot of quiet time. Did you
notice your mind start to quieten over time as
you were removing all the inputs and all the
stresses of decades in the fire service? I don't
know if I was ever that aware of it. In hindsight,
I'd say it happened. um but i yeah at the moment
i you know because the other thing for me anyway
you know it it was uh hiking doing a long distance
like that first off i've never done anything
remotely like that so many people that that do
the AT or one of those other ones. This is what
they do, right? They're big backpackers, hikers,
and this, you know, we just jumped into this
thing. Oh, maybe we'll do this. We went down
to Ocala and did a five -day hike down Ocala
to prepare. And we walked around with backpacks
a whole lot. And then we got on the Appalachian
Trail and took off. You know, so it was physically
very, very demanding. So it wasn't so much tranquil
in that respect. I was working very hard much
of the day to keep up with this woman in front
of me who could just hike forever, it seemed
like. But I get where you're coming from. And
I think my life in general since then, there's
been a lot of that. And it's part of why I like
doing what I'm doing. is that I don't have to
be anywhere. I don't, you know, I have a whole
lot of control over who I'm with and what surrounds
me and all that sort of stuff. And the state
of mind that I'm in is like a hundred percent
under my control. I'm not responding to, you
know, buttons being pushed kind of thing. Right.
And so, and I guess that's any of us, right?
I mean, that's what the whole, like people do
what they do, the golfing or the fishing. I got
a brother -in -law that's a retired fireman as
well, and he's a big fisherman. And that's his
happy place, you know. I mean, he will fish all
day long, every single day, and loves it, absolutely
loves it. And I couldn't imagine doing that at
all. Yeah, for me, being in the woods and walking
is kind of like his fishing, you know, that's
just having, you know, and I was in the scouts
when I was a kid and the whole outdoors thing
I was always had, you know, and that's the kind
of vacations we took because when you got nine
kids, you're not staying in hotels, you're staying
in tents. And so that was a part of my growing
up being out in the woods and that whole getting
away from it all kind of thing. And so coming
back to that. And my retirement has been really
good for me. I really enjoy it. Just, you know,
being away from people and dogs. Yeah, not alone,
but, you know, controlling my environment means
a lot to me. Brilliant. Well, for people listening,
if they wanted to reach out to you, do you have
any places on social media or emails for people
to contact you, even though you're going to be
on a ship now for half a year? Yeah, petevandorp
at gmail .com. And you can post that up or whatever.
That's fine. I probably won't get back to you
for seven months. Yeah, we don't, we actually,
we, because I shouldn't say we, Lisa did all
the work. When we were hiking the trail, we got
a YouTube channel and we, you know, tried to
put up periodically, you know, what we did every
day kind of thing. And that's a lot of work.
You obviously know you do this. But it's more
work than either one of us ever wanted to do
again. In some ways, we originally did it just
to keep, the idea was it'd be less work than
answering people's texts all the time. We just
wanted it for friends and family, right? But
actually, the people that engaged us the most
turned out to be total strangers. So that becomes
a little bit more of a stress kind of thing,
you know, because you're trying to entertain
them now or whatever. So we're never going to
do that again. So there's no social media of
Pete and Lisa on their travels. um which many
people do but it's not for us um i don't think
we tried it and it just didn't wasn't what we
wanted so um but yeah if anybody wants to reach
out to me i'd be happy to speak with anyone.
Brilliant. Well, Pete, I want to thank you. It's
been such an incredible conversation. We've been
all over the place, but I mean, hearing some
of your perspectives coming from, you know, the
lineage that you have and the positions that
you held, I think it's invaluable, especially
for, you know, a lot of the younger firefighters
out there listening and maybe debunking some
of the, you know, the myths that they've been
taught early in their career. So I want to thank
you so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It's as
much as I like to say, you know, I'm retired
with a capital R. And, you know, but to like
one of our last points here, right, how do you
manage this whole separating from this thing
that was so much a part of your life? And this
is this is one of the ways you manage that you
never completely separate. Right. So you've given
me an opportunity to reconnect with what was
such a big part of my life for so long. And I'm
grateful to you for that. So thank you.