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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Geering, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show paramedic,
patient care director, and the writer of the
film Code 3. Patrick Pianetta. Now, in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from his journey
into EMS, the volunteer fire service, private
ambulance, some of his notable and career calls,
the college assignment that created Code 3, how
he and his brother brought this to the screen,
the proactive solution to our healthcare crisis,
mental health in first responders, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Patrick...
Pianezza. Enjoy. Well, Patrick, I want to say
thank you so much for coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast today. I watched Code 3 literally
about two days ago and was so blown away how
good it was. And I mean that there's an absolute
pile of shit when it comes to EMS and fire television
out there. But this was really, really good.
And so then I took a kind of deep dive into,
you know, who were the people behind it? Because
obviously there were real paramedics involved.
And here we are. So I want to start by welcoming
you onto the show today. Thank you so much for
having me. I'm really glad it resonated with
you. That was one of the biggest things that
I was passionate about was making sure that we
got it right. Yeah, and you did. And I'm sure
this has been a conversation for you before,
but I think the pit is another one this last
year that did a really, really good job through
a medic, doctor, nurse's eyes. Yeah, the funny
thing is one of the people that plays a physician
on the pit, Aisha Harris. She plays one of the
physicians in the later episodes, was a paramedic
in our movie. So she had a line. Well, she had
many lines. She's one of the characters there.
And I would text her and say, you know, like
you went from paramedic to doctor in a year.
Congratulations. That was fantastic. Well, very
first question, where on planet Earth are we
finding you today? I am in lovely Kiowa Island,
South Carolina right now. I don't live here,
but I'm fortunate enough to be able to do the
holidays here. My wife's family have a place
in Kiowa and I went to college in South Carolina.
So it's a little bit like coming home. So every
Christmas I get the opportunity to fly back to
South Carolina and take in this incredibly beautiful
scenery that you can't see. But it's really lovely.
Yeah, it's so funny. People have those screens
behind them when we do the Zoom calls, and there's
these beautiful leather -bound libraries, and
you've got a grand piano over your right shoulder.
Yeah, right. Yeah, something you can obviously
tell I play regularly. Unfortunately, I'm in
a spare bedroom right now, so this looks way
better than where I'm actually sitting. All right.
Well, speaking of your origin story, tell me
where you were born. And tell me a little bit
about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Yeah, so this is great.
I don't get a chance often to say this. What
I tell everybody is I'm what happens when a small
business owner and a physical therapist have
a baby. You get somebody who gets their master's
in healthcare administration. So I grew up in
Springfield, Illinois. I was born in Springfield,
Illinois, I should say. I grew up in a little
town called Sherman, north of Springfield. And
the family dynamic was fantastic. I've got a
little brother who's two years younger than I
am. We grew up in central Illinois playing soccer.
I played a little bit of football. Playing is
probably being generous. I was on the team more
than I played. I had a lot of fun there. My dad
had a bakery growing up, so we learned the value
of hard work very early on in life. We were in
the bakery making bread a lot of the times, and
my mom was a physical therapist. Her specialty
was with kids with special needs and disabilities.
We would go out and I was constantly exposed
to that kind of stuff. So I was exposed to health
care very early on. And I thought I wanted to
be a doctor for the longest time until I found
out I was allergic to organic chemistry. But
we had a really great growing up. We were very
fortunate. My mother never naturalized. So she
was a Canadian citizen. So we would go visit
her family in Montreal. So we kind of got that
exposure to. foreign languages and and culture
uh in montreal if for anybody who's never been
there the in quebec it's very french it's very
european it's it's a beautiful city i love that
city and we got the opportunity to spend a lot
of time up there and then like i said grew up
in the midwest and then my father was italian
so we would go to italy to go visit his family
on occasion as well so we really had we really
had a great time it was a lot of fun growing
up and uh Like I said, I was always drawn to
the medicine side. Like as a child, I just, I
always, I was really lucky. I really liked my
pediatrician. I was one of those weird kids that
really liked his doctor. And so I would, I would
ask him a million questions every time, assuming
I wasn't like super sick. Like, how'd you do
this? What do I have to do? And yeah, wanted
to go to med school since an early age. And I
came into EMS by complete accident and fire department
was like. Total accident. So I went to EMT school
through a cavalcade of funny mistakes. And I
just figured I might be useful. Something bad
happens and it'll look good on a med school resume.
So I'll go to my I'll go do EMT school and fell
in love with it. I just absolutely fell in love
with it. I my very first clinical shift ever.
I walked in the ER. I didn't know anything about
anything. And they were working a code in the
trauma bay. And the charge nurse just said, hey,
you know, it's a good thing you're here. They're
working a code. If you want to go check it out,
you should go. You know, they're doing it right
now. And so I was very apprehensive, incredibly
nervous, had no idea if I had the stomach for
it. And back in those days, they had the hands
paddles, like not the stickers. They had the
old school. like things you had to actually use
and i had opened the door and you couldn't have
scripted a more hollywood moment i opened the
door the docklings over clear bam the guy jumps
up off the test and i was just like this is the
coolest thing i've ever seen i want to do this
forever and went straight from emt to paramedic
in like two years i spent so much time in the
emergency room doing clinical time that they
were just like, would you please just put an
app in and we'll just pay you to be here? And
that's quite literally how I got my first job
in healthcare. And I joined the fire department
because I was too young to drive the ambulance.
So I couldn't work for the ambulance company.
But the Sherman Volunteer Fire Department, which
I was a member of for about four years, I walked
into the doors and the chief happened to be there.
Just said, hey, I have no interest in fire. I
just want to do the medical stuff. And Chief
Coon, great guy, put his arm around me. He goes,
what's that sign say out there? And I said, it's
his fire department. He goes, if you're going
to be here, you're going to be a fireman. I said,
OK, sign me up. And so I went to the fire academy
and had a lot of fun with those guys, too, and
got to experience the fire service as well as
EMS and just have loved public safety ever since.
Going all the way back to your parents for a
moment. Firstly, I used to work in upstate New
York. So I'd go to Montreal on our days off every
so often. And they have by far the wettest French
toast I've ever had in my life. It's basically
raw. It's like French toast sushi. Yeah. Yeah.
There's a little bit of culture shock whenever
you go up there. The poutine, all of it, it was
great. I loved it. And then with your dad, was
he first generation immigrant or were his parents
the immigrants? No, my grandfather came over
on the boat. My dad was born in Italy, but naturalized
here. So he naturalized before I was born. So
I'm always, because being an immigrant myself
even, the kind of pros and the cons. With your
dad's immigration story, even your grandfather's
maybe is a better perspective. What were the
highs or the pros and what were the cons that
they experienced on their journey to this country?
So my grandfather would tell some stories. He
was pretty cloistered about it. He didn't tell
many, but he would let slip that when he came
over in like the early 40s, I think is when he
came over, you know, they still had signs, you
know, no Italians wanted, no Irish or no Irish
Italians or dogs could apply or something like
really heinous stuff. But he never really talked
about it all that much. He came in and apprenticed
in New York and then moved to Chicago. and started
a bakery in Chicago. Once he got that started,
he called for my grandmother and my dad to come
and then they came over. My dad would tell the
story of when he was growing up in Chicago, where
he was at, there was a lot of Italians, but it
was still felt like outsider syndrome, a little
imposter syndrome a little bit. And then, you
know, you moved to Springfield and I think we're
one of like three families that spoke Italian
in that city. We certainly had our people, but
it was a little bit diminished. And my mom had,
I mean, my mom had a pretty easy, she spoke four
languages and she melded right in when she moved
down here. But yeah, the pros certainly are,
you know, I have dual citizenship with here in
Canada. I'm working on getting the paperwork
filed to get my Italian so I can have EU citizenship
as well. That comes with a lot of benefits, obviously.
But the other benefit, too, was just culturally,
growing up in a household that spoke two languages,
which was very unusual where I grew up, and being
exposed to different cultures. And I know that
French and Italian, they are similar. I'm not
making light of it. But you go to Montreal, Montreal
is very different than Italy. But having the
ability... and really the privilege to go to
those two areas was was fantastic and and having
family there made it much easier because it's
not like you know we certainly weren't millionaires
like we would go there it's not like we were
staying at hotels we were just going to grandma's
house in really either country um but having
the ability to travel like that you know as a
teenager and younger was was very fortunate I
think it just gives you a completely different
perspective and lens on the world when you've
just simply been to other places and you've seen
other cultures. Because I'll give you an example
of ignorance in the UK. Supposedly, we were supposed
to hate the French. But then you go to France
and there's all these beautiful people. And there's
some dickheads, of course. Every country has
them. But overall, they're beautiful people and
amazing language. I love French. And you learn,
obviously, about what happened in World War II.
And then you see the nuanced conversation of,
yeah, well, this is tarring everyone with the
same brush. And I think the ultimate enemy of
prejudice is simply traveling. This is actually
dropping your preconceived notions and just going
to a place and looking around, immersing yourself.
Well, lo and behold, they're just people just
like you, you know, mothers and fathers and siblings
and kids that are playing and dogs that are barking.
And it's amazing. So I wish everyone had the
opportunity to travel because it really would
pull so many of us together, I think. I 100 %
agree. I have been stranded in foreign countries
and just made fast friends. And some of those
people, you know, who I don't know to this day,
like shepherd me through some, you know, you
need to go over here or. One of my favorites
was we were in Italy and we were supposed to
get on a boat. I don't remember all the specifics.
I was younger. I was a kid. But basically, we're
looking at the pamphlet, right? And the pamphlet
said, I don't know, the boat leaves at three
or something. And we were trying to find the
right dock or whatever to get back. And one of
the locals was like, no, no, no, the boat leaves
at two. And we were like. This says three and
they're like, everybody knows it's at two. Like
you got to go over here, go talk to Jimmy. He's
the one who lets you on the boat. So yeah, I
mean, I absolutely agree. I think that the more
people go out there and experience other cultures,
like you said, yeah, there's going to be dicks,
but by and large, in my experience, people are
people and they are, they're, they're, they're
nice. They're, they're, they're just nice people.
People are people and are willing to help most
of them. Absolutely. Going to the physical therapy,
especially in the special needs community, have
you had any conversations with your mom about
the evolution of that world? Because especially,
you know, through the last 22 years now, when
we had a lot of our veterans coming back and
that kind of adaptive athlete thing really started
evolving. And now we're seeing, you know, young
men with Down syndrome doing Ironman triathlons
and, you know, cerebral palsy power lifters.
know what once was a population that was kind
of kept in institutions away from everyone else
now they're front and center and celebrated yeah
i wish she was still around to be able to see
all the the the changes that have occurred unfortunately
she passed in 2016 so she got a little bit of
it but i mean when we were growing up you know
we're talking 80s early 90s it was not unusual
to hear the word retarded thrown around in what
would be considered an appropriate phrase, like
the school for retarded children. Now, I'm well
aware that that word is wrong. But back then,
that was the nomenclature of the time. And she
worked for some of those facilities and was always
a passionate advocate for them. In fact, she
helped. She didn't build it, but I know that
she was somehow involved in the first adaptive
park in Springfield, Illinois, where kids with
wheelchairs, you know, could get on a swing and
stuff like that. So that's always, you know,
in retrospect is very heartwarming, but to see
that kind of passion before it was, before it
was the right thing to do before it was like
in vogue. She always had a passion for that population
and always did her best to make sure those people
were seen and felt as equal members of society.
In fact, she would make my brother and I go to
one of the schools that she would work at to
meet the kids. And I'll never forget, I remember
I couldn't have been more than like six or seven
years old. And it was like, well, what's wrong
with that kid? And my mom said, there's nothing
wrong with them. They're just different. And
I'll always remember that. that teaching. Cause
to me it was, you know, you're, you're five,
six years old, that, that kid doesn't operate
like I do, you know, like what's wrong with them.
And it's like, it's, there's nothing wrong. You
just need to, you know, shift the way you look
at it. And that's one of those things that's
always stuck with me. That's funny. Cause that
mirrors a phrase that I really love when you're
talking about someone's behavior in general.
So they could be, you know, distraught, they
could be angry, whatever it is, but rather than
saying what's wrong with you, You say, excuse
me, you say what happened to you. And, you know,
that obviously that person with the anger, they
may have just learned that their, you know, loved
one passed away two days before. And so you start
to unpack, you know, the root cause of this behavior.
And it's the same with what you're talking about.
There's nothing wrong with them. But what happened
to you? Well, when, you know, my mother was delivering
me, the air was cut off. And that's why now,
you know, I have these deficits. So it's even
with the physical side, that's a great way of
reframing it. It's like, well, what happened
to you? You know, what's your backstory? what
are your parameters and your capabilities? And
then that gives you this whole scope then to
work with. And then we see fricking paraplegic
climbing ropes in their wheelchairs and all these
things that I think it's so amazing. And I'm
sure she'd probably be beaming from ear to ear
to see what that community is doing these days.
Oh, she'd be overjoyed. And like I said, even
back in the day, she was a fierce advocate of
making sure that they felt felt seen and especially
dealing, she was very good. Her specialty was
in pediatrics. And so like just embracing those
children and making them feel valued was, I mean,
had huge ripple effects. I mean, I can tell you
on her funeral or the day of her funeral, I'm
not kidding when I say like, we, like my brother
and my father had no idea that the impact, like
we knew that people liked her, loved her obviously,
but like. when i say there was a line stretching
around the building like it blew us away like
people were coming to us that we had never met
uh that my mom had worked with either their child
or their teacher or something and it was like
story after story the very first person was telling
us the story about how my mom made an impact
on their kid and was like the doctor said my
kid would never walk again and you know here
they are and it's just like tears and it's just
like god like things that you you know you're
you're you're always the hero of your own story
and and my mom wouldn't tell like to her it was
like that was what she did she would never like
stand on a podium and be like i am so great that
you know i did this but just story after story
after story was was incredible yeah that's amazing
when you were talking earlier you were talking
about organic chemistry i wanted to be a firefighter
when I was young was told school age that I was
colorblind and they were told me you can't be
a firefighter you can't be a pilot so then the
other thing I wanted to do was medicine so I'm
like all right well then I'll be a doctor until
I got to the maths and I'm like okay I won't
be a doctor so had a similar path with you and
then years later when I found fire and EMS you
know I kind of debunked these myths that I was
told as a child I realized it wasn't actually
the physician behind the desk that i wanted to
be i didn't even know what a paramedic was but
that was it i wanted to be you know the kind
of uh cartoon hero out in the street saving lives
type of doctor and you know that's obviously
ems so what made you even kind of go towards
that journey and if before that talk to me more
about the the academic barriers to you going
through traditional medicine Well, for me, it
was like you, very similar. I am kind of a paradox
in this. I find the math and the sciences, all
sciences, to be incredibly fascinating. My wife
gets annoyed with me because I will sit down
and happily watch what I lovingly refer to as
nerdy YouTube about like astrophysics or, you
know, mathematic theories and stuff. And it truly
it's one of the things that I'm just in amazement
with. I enjoy it. To me, it's fascinating. Don't
ask me to recreate any of what they're doing.
I can't do it. But I struggled in math my whole
life. I've had positions where I was in charge
of large analytic departments, data analytics.
statistical processing for large health systems.
But I literally have difficulty doing math in
my head. Like if you give me like seven plus
five, it takes me a second. Like if I have a
piece of paper, it's fine. But if you ask me
off the cuff, I can't do it. And I've been in
charge of, like I said, very large analytics
processes for health systems, which is fine.
As long as I have a computer or some adaptive
device, I guess, a piece of paper or something,
I'm really good at making data tell a story.
I'm not so good at cranking the data out myself.
But so, yeah, those were huge hindrances for
me. I mean, every standardized test I would take
for math or chemistry, I was always good in biology,
but chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, anything
like that, I struggled with a lot in high school
and in college because it was. The applicability
of that work was so hard for me, but I understood
it as for whatever reason, as soon as it transitioned
into biology, like the Krebs cycle, how we make
ATP, like I can tell you, I can figure that out.
I understand it. But like, if you just throw
sodium and chloride together and, you know, 25
grams of this and 14 grams of that, how many
grams of salt do you get? Like, I'm like, I have
no idea. I can't do that. But I know the body
needs salt and I know what it does in the body.
So that's where I always struggled. And I would
take these courses. I took chemistry 111 and
112. Both of those times, I took those classes
twice to get a passing grade. Organic chemistry,
I took twice to get a passing grade. Biology,
I was getting A's. And the general chemistries
and mathematics, like algebra one and two. took
both those classes twice. So from an academic
standpoint in those, in those rote classes, they
were very challenging for me. But when I found
a way to apply that, those sciences and those
maths, like in, in being a paramedic, all of
a sudden everything clicked into place. And I
was very good at that part of it. But yeah, that
was always a challenge. I always struggled with
this idea of like, I know I'm smart, but I can't
prove it. That was always one of the challenges.
And so having the opportunity to operate on one
of my strengths, which is writing and communications,
getting a major in that, and then minoring in
the medical humanities really helped out. And
then discovering that there was a master's in
healthcare administration really blew my mind.
got into that program and really excelled that
way. And so I was able to transition a lot of
clinical work into administrative work for, like
I was saying before, mostly in inpatient experience
programs across the country. But yeah, those
academic barriers were there. I was always good
at reading, writing. I was mediocre in the sciences
if it wasn't biology or biology related. And
then like math and chemistry, I was just like.
The professors would just shake their head and
be like, how many times we got to tell you this?
And I was like, until it sticks, man, let's go.
This is what you're paid to do. Well, you mentioned
about not being old enough to drive the ambulance.
Was the volunteer fire department the first place
you were working as an EMT and or medic? As yeah,
as all the way up to paramedic, the fire department
was the only place I could work because I could
drive for some reason. The silly thing in Illinois,
I could drive an 85 foot long fire truck, but
I couldn't drive an ambulance because their insurance,
you had to be 21 or 22 in order to be covered
by their insurance program. But I also worked
in the emergency room, which made me a much better
medic. So coming out of EMT school, as I started.
As soon as I got my EMT, I jumped into the emergency
room and worked night shift. And the beauty of
that was that it was a level one trauma center
and a burn center. So learning medications as
an EMT, learning what happens in the hospital
setting made me a much better medic for when
I did get on the street. And so then supplement
that, excuse me, with the fire service, which
80, 85 % of all calls at fire service run are
medical anyway. was really a beautiful way to
come up in this business. And then when I transferred
to the University of South Carolina, South Carolina
would not recognize my fire credentials, but
they would recognize my paramedic. And so I went
straight paramedic and worked 911 all through
the rest of my undergrad and graduate program.
And so all of those skill sets and all of that
experience in in hospital and on the fire service,
made me a much better medic when I became, quote,
a full -time paramedic. That's what I saw. And
that's what I tried to do, you know, when I was
a medic as well is, you know, you had the one
end of the spectrum, which was your cookbook
medic, where, you know, they just went to the
page and, okay, this is the thing. And then you
had the critically. thinking paramedic who obviously
might be kind of nuancing whatever the presentation
is. It might be a combination of two or three
different things, but also what would the hospital
need? You know, are they going to have to do
a CT? Can we put large bore IVs in, et cetera,
and trying to set them up so there's a continuance
of care versus now they're having to do IVs or
in some places they even got to draw blood before
we got there. So, you know, setting them up for
success. And that was, you know, obviously ultimately
the best thing for the patient. And even, you
know, the right facility, like my last place,
a lot of them, you know, that weren't really
into the job anymore, we just take a stroke patient
to the nearest facility versus a comprehensive
stroke care, you know, center so that if it is
a, you know, a bleed, for example, that you're
in the right place. So I did see that myself,
the more. the more you kind of either in your
clinicals or you just care enough to set them
up for success in that facility. In my opinion,
the better medic you were, if you just took them
to the door, you know, offloaded them and walked
away and didn't, you know, follow up on, Hey,
what happened? What did you find? Were there
any scans? What was in the blood work? I felt
like that was kind of the. the hard stop is your
growth as a medic. But if you cared about that
continuance of care, I think that was kind of
the, how you kept improving your medic skills
as you progressed through your career. I was
very lucky. I had a fantastic paramedic instructor
who worked in the emergency room where I was
working. And so we were coworkers before he became
my paramedic instructor. And one of the things
that he would always, whenever we were doing
clinical time on the ambulance, whenever we'd
bring somebody in, If he was working, he'd say,
all right, great report. What do you think is
going on? And so then, you know, you had to you
had to be on your toes like, well, I think this
is a GI bleed or I think this is, you know, that.
And what was funny was a lot of the physicians
would then once once you were out of school,
they would continue that. And especially, like
I said, I still worked in the ER. They'd be like,
all right, doctor, what do you think is going
on? So it's interesting. With the volunteer fire
department that has a paramedic on staff, what
did that look like? Because usually in volunteer
fire, you might have maybe an EMT level, if that,
but you had quite a high level on the EMS side.
So what was that dynamic? Did they use you as
a full medic? They couldn't. So we were only
an EMT level fire department. So we, even though
I was a paramedic, we didn't, I didn't have the
drugs or the monitor that, you know, the manual
monitor. We had AEDs obviously, but like there
was an inability to go above the EMT level just
because of the supplies that were there. Like
I couldn't start a line if I wanted to. We didn't
have an IV bag or a drip set or anything like
that. However. What I like to do, and I still
do, I'm kind of an educator at heart, is when
we would do monthly trainings, if it was medical,
I wasn't the only paramedic, obviously, but there
was a few of us, and we would do the education,
the monthly education on medicine. One month,
it would be airway. Another month, it would be
cardiology. We would do that kind of thing. Then
on seeing what that helped us out with is when
the ambulance would come. to pick up our patients.
You know, if there was one of us that were a
medic, then it was a medic to medic conversation.
Like, Hey, I think this is what's going on. Here's
what I've done. Like go forth and do good things.
But it really helped me out in reverse. So when
I went through the fire Academy, it was really
funny. And one of my, one of my still to this
day, best friends on this planet went through
the fire Academy with us because I think it was
like five or six people who showed up the first
day. And as we got onto like month two or three,
Jake and I were the only two people that survived.
And Jake was very, very good at the fire service
and not very good at the medicine side. And we
absolutely hated each other. Like, I can't stress
this enough. We hated each other when we first
met. I don't know what it is, but it's one of
those things where it's like you just look at
somebody and you're like, no, no, I don't like
this guy. We're never going to be friends. And
somewhere around like the third or fourth month.
Um, we both, we were the only, we looked around
the room and it was just the two of us. And so
whenever you're doing like drills and, you know,
how do you, you know, writ team stuff and, and,
uh, I'm failing because I haven't done fire in
a very long time, but all the, the necessary
things for, um, extra extrication or breaching,
breaching, breaching, or saving your partner
if they're down kind of thing. It was just two
of us. That's it. It was just the two of us.
And we had this wonderful little heart to heart.
And I said, listen, you're not good at medicine.
I am. I'm not good at fire and you are. So let's
just let's make this work. And we ended up becoming
very close friends. And to this day, he's still
one of my closest friends. But yeah, I remember
going through all of that. It's I've never served
in the military. I'm not claiming that kind of
relationship. But to me, it was it's got to be
similar to something that you would you would
go through in boot camp because both of us just
became really close friends. And it's one of
the. proudest things that i that i think i've
had is maintaining that friendship and still
to this day being able to call him and see what's
going on and now he serves as the assistant chief
which cracks me up um but yeah what about career
calls before we progress into the ems only side
that you've transitioned to what was some of
the career calls in the volunteer fire department
well i think For us, we were a fire service first.
And so when you're talking about career calls,
we would do things where we couldn't take our
vehicle to the scene. The way we operated was
you had to go to the firehouse, get your gear
and the truck, and then take the fire truck to
wherever the call was. And so learning from the
fire side about seeing size up, seeing safety.
And how to do an appropriate assessment of the
situation before acting, before implementing
a plan, to me is one of those lifelong learnings
that I've taken with me all the way through the
work in the administrative realms that I've had.
As far as career calls, I'm trying to think of
the best way to answer this question. We had
lots of bad calls and lots of interesting calls.
We were a very rural department. There was a
few fires that we had to fight that were large
industrial farmland fires that were really bad.
We were, Jake, the guy I told you about, we were
in a house that literally exploded because we
were making entry into something. And to this
day, Jake saved my life. He realized how hot
the building was getting before I did and said,
basically, the very short version of the story
is we need to get out of here. It's hot. And
as we came out of the, we, it's one of those
moments where we dropped the hose and hightailed
it towards the door. And as we got to the door,
the whole thing flashed. And had he not been
there, I wouldn't have realized it that quickly.
So that call always sticks with me. We were in
a barn that was burning and we, him and I were
on the nozzle or I was on the nozzle and he was
backing me up. It was completely pitch black.
You couldn't see anything. And as we rotated,
the water would hit this something, and you'd
just hear this searing and this bubbling sound.
Push some more water over here. Push the smoke
back. You'd come over this way. You'd hear it
hit something and sizzle, pop, and bubbling sound.
And then we got the call that the fire had already
gone through the other side, so back out. surround
and drown operation so once the building finally
burned down we went we went and retraced our
steps and literally 15 feet from where we were
standing like our boot prints were still in the
mud you turn around and it was a 55 gallon drum
of diesel fuel that was off gassing that we were
hitting with the water so yeah those were some
those were some big calls that we were on On
the medical side, the interstate ran through
our district, and so we would get some pretty
gnarly wrecks, especially in the winter in Illinois,
ice up, some really good extrication stuff. But
yeah, I mean, as far as career calls go, there
are those calls that just stick with you. More
so, I mean, the patient outcomes are the things
that you remember, but also the... The opportunities
to bond with the people that you work with, to
realize that like it is a it is a team that makes
sure that ensures that you go home at the end
of the day. And those are things that I always
remember. That's the stuff that to me is important,
because at the end of the day, it's about the
partners that you have and everybody looking
out for one another. That's that's one of the
things I loved about the fire service and EMS.
But it was always about, you know. You know,
rule number one, you and I go home at the end
of the day. Rule number two, we're going to make
sure that, you know, the people we take care
of get the best care they can. Absolutely. Well,
you mentioned going to South Carolina for the
education side. So what was different then when
you found yourself in an EMS only paid department
as well? That was a really big culture shock,
to be honest. I'd gotten my associate's degree
in biology in Springfield at Lincoln Land and
then transferred to South Carolina. And when
I came here, they run a county -based EMS system,
which is different than anything that I had ever
been exposed to. So it was government only. Not
only. There was private services and still are.
But I was only interested in 911. So 911 at the
time was only handled by the county. And they
had so much they had a lot more structure around
EMS. And so standardized trucks, uniforms were
the same. I'm trying to think like they had a
training program that was really robust. And
it was it was the first time that this sounds
really bad, but it was the first time I saw it
as a professional profession. Not that it wasn't
in Illinois, but it was Illinois was kind of.
piecemeal together. So there were only private
ambulances that would do transports. They did
handle 911. Most of it was in a facility. There
was like four or five competing private ambulance
companies. So it wasn't run in a standardized
methodology. I worked for one of those companies
for a very short period of time. And even the
way the ambulances were stocked, different company
to company. So I come to South Carolina and we
would run anywhere from 10 to 14 trucks a day.
And any one of those trucks I could get in and
out of. And I knew exactly where the BVMs were.
I knew where the drugs were and it didn't matter.
So it was really fascinating to see that being
organized that way. And we handled all, if not
most of all the 911 in Lexington County. And
to me, it was what I really wanted. It was all.
It wasn't all obviously emergent. Anybody who's
worked this job for more than 10 minutes knows
not every call is an emergency. But it was all
calls that came in via 911. And so for me, it
was it was really fulfilling work. It was what
I wanted to do at that point in time. And I was
still I was going to college during the day.
So I would work night shift on the ambulance
and I would go to class during the day. And so
I would have textbooks on the dashboard. I'd
be doing homework in between calls and we would
staff. uh, EMT paramedic. And so obviously it
was anything that required ALS care. Unfortunately,
it was my call. So I would have, I would have
paperwork and then I would have, uh, homework.
And it was just depending on what I was doing,
which book I were, which, which laptop I was
reaching for. So what about that period? Obviously
there are a lot of scenes in code three and we'll
get to that. But, um, the, again, career calls,
funny calls, what are the ones that fit that
chapter of your life? Well, I mean, there was,
I mean, you're asking, you know, how do I condense
12 years into something? And we did our best
to do that with the film. But I mean, one of
my favorite calls that I wrote that we didn't
get into the movie because my director didn't
believe it. But I think the best call I think
I've ever ran, bar none, high bar here. We walk
into this house. And the officer has a wooden
spoon and is banging it against the washing machine.
Just clang, clang, clang, clang. And by this
point in time, I had known this officer. And
I was just like, what are you doing? He goes,
just go talk to your patient. He's sitting there
slapping. He's slapping this washing machine
with a wooden spoon. So we start talking to this
woman. And she has suffered, unfortunately, from
a mental break and believes. that there are green
men coming out of the washing machine, stealing
her underwear. And so it's kind of like, okay,
this is nice. There's nothing medically wrong
besides with her delusions. So it's not like
we were worried about cardiac or anything else.
We were just like, all right, well, let's get
you on the stretcher and get ready to take you
to the hospital and make sure, get you away from
these terrible gremlins that are bothering you.
And to his credit, the reason why this call stands
out to me and I think is still the greatest call
I've ever ran is as we're getting to the door
jam, he draws his weapon and points it at the
washing machine. And he goes, all right, you
sons of bitches, you leave this nice lady alone
and kick the door shut to the washing machine.
And I'm not kidding you, this 70, 80 -year -old
woman swooned in the stretch. It was just like
my hero. And we took her to the hospital to go
get cared for. But to me, it's one of those things
where it's like compassion meets one of the funniest
things I've ever seen in my life. And it meant
the world to her. And so it's one of, I think,
one of the greatest calls I've ever been a part
of in my life. And I still rib him whenever I
see him about it. You know, you still killing
gremlins? He goes, no, that was the last one.
I never had to deal with them again. But, yeah,
that call always sticks with me. It's one of
my favorites. But, you know, the other ones,
too, where I had, I didn't know this at the time,
but we went on a call that was fairly significant,
respiratory distress, severe extremis, getting
ready to bag this gentleman. We put him on CPAP
instead, and he did well on CPAP. And so we take
him to the hospital. First time. event with CHF.
And I go to class the next day. And this person,
this one of the, one of my classmates is just
staring at me. And I don't know this, the student,
I mean, Carolina is a big school and this was
like econ one -on -one. There's like 200, 300
students in this classroom. So it's not like
I was friends with all of them, but this, this
person's just staring at me. And so I finally
go up to him and I'm like, what's going on, man?
Like you've, you've been staring at me for like
literally all of class. And he goes, do you work
for the county? And I said, I do. He goes, did
you go to this address? And I was like, I don't
know, man. Like I run a million calls. You're
gonna have to tell me more than an address. And
he tells me about this call. And sure enough,
like I had taken care of this guy, this person's
father. And I was like, oh yeah, I remember that
call. We got him to the hospital and you know,
that was it. And I was like, why, what's up?
And he just starts crying. Like just tears start
shedding immediately. And I'm just standing here.
I'm not in uniform. Like I said, I look like
a regular college student. And this man is just
crying in front of me. And I have no idea what
to do. I'm just like, oh, I'm thinking, of course,
I'm like, did he die? Did I do something wrong?
Like, I'm making it about me as like, obviously,
I should, because I'm like, oh, Jesus, what did
I do wrong? And he starts, he comes, he pulls
himself together. And he just says, you know,
he spent almost a week in the ICU. He had to
have a... open heart surgery and they had put
them on ECMO and all of these things. And he's,
and he's made it. And he was like, and I just
want to tell you, thank you. And like, at that
point I start crying. I'm like, Oh God, like
not what I was expecting at all. I was kind of
expecting the, like, here's you've been served.
But like, I was like, Oh man, you know, that's,
that's, that's really cool. And we never kept
in touch. I didn't want to make it weird. I was
just like, that's, I'm really glad he had a good
outcome. I have no idea what happened after that.
But that was always one of those things where
it was just, to me, it was one of those, it was
a Tuesday, right? Like it was a run of the mill
call. I'm glad we could help out. But to be able
to see the after effects of what you did was
really moving to me in a way that I still think
about. To me, it's really important. And then
there's, you know, the darker side of stupidity
that happens in EMS. There was, I had a call
where a really significantly sick child, infant,
maybe three months old, and walk in and we're
at the opposite end of the county from a hospital.
So it's 45 minutes running hot, no matter what.
Like there's no way, unless you get a helicopter
involved, like it's a long transport. Kids head
bobbing, snoring, it's bad. Grabbed the kid.
I was like, we're not wasting time. Let's go
hustle off to the truck and start laying out
all my equipment, getting ready to go. And it
was one of those funny moments where I talked
to this three -month -old. And I just remember
telling this kid, I go, listen, if your heart
rate drops below 60, I'm going to drill a hole
in your leg. And the kid just nodded. And I was
like, cool, we're on the same page. And so nebulizing
and all the things that you do to make sure that
they have a good outcome, trying to start an
IV on them. And I just realized like, I need
to suction this kid out. And so I, you know,
start going through all the equipment and, you
know, all I got in there is a French catheter
that's eight feet long and kinked and just doesn't
work. And it dawns on me, we have a bulb syringe,
but it's in the OB kit. So I was like, perfect.
That's exactly what I need and what I want. I
grabbed the OB kit, tear it open, find the suction
kit out. We get to the hospital. kid marginally
better still very very sick did not have to innovate
him thankfully uh did not have to start an io
on this poor child um but i was able to start
a line on him uh and you know all the things
that you know you get to put your cape on and
feel like a good boy for um get done get a high
five from the doctor i believe the child had
pneumonia or something it was bad um three or
four days later i get a phone call uh from one
of the administrators at where I worked. And
I get this phone call. That's like, what were
you thinking? There's no context, right? Like
that's how the phone call starts. And I was like,
uh, what are you talking about? And he's, he
had this pediatric call while water was like,
Oh yeah, I remember that call. I got a high five
from the ER doc. Like that's, that's what I,
you know, what we live for. You opened up an
OB kit. Why? Because I needed a bulb syringe.
Do you know how expensive bulb syringes or OB
kits are? We had to restock an entire OB kit.
And like, that's the kind of stuff where I just
check out. I'm like, no, this is, we did everything
right. We had a good outcome. And I'm getting
yelled at because OB kits are expensive. That
conversation kept going for probably about 15
minutes and it ended with me being not so polite,
telling them to stock bulb syringes outside of
the OB kit if their primary concern was the cost
of the OB kit. Well, I want to get to that because
I know you found yourself more on the admin side,
but just before we do, because it's a topic that
the film definitely hits, which I love the way
it does it amongst the comedy, but is the mental
health conversation, the burnout, et cetera.
Prior to you going to the admin side, What was
your experience as far as the impact of the job
on your physical and or mental health at that
point? I mean, it was bad. I've been very open
about my struggle with burnout and my journey
through it. And I tell people too, like if people
knew me in the early 2000s, like I was not a
nice person. I was very burnt out. I was difficult
to be around. I'm very fortunate. I've also...
said this too i i was very fortunate that i never
struggled with drug addiction or suicidality
or stuff like that and that doesn't make me better
stronger whatever than anybody who does i was
just very fortunate that i i was just a callous
cynical sarcastic asshole um for part of it especially
when you got me going um but for me it's it was
about like the little things that i felt just
kept becoming insurmountable right like the bulb
syringe thing the you know the the pay certainly
was a problem it was all of these things that
continued to get layered uh and it was difficult
i was lucky one of my roommates uh liked to work
out so we would do that and we worked opposite
shift so thankfully we never worked together
we were just roommates but like every day at
like two o 'clock we both worked night shift
which was great at like two o 'clock in the afternoon
right after you got up we would force each other
to go to the gym. And so we would go work out.
So from a physical health standpoint, I was probably
a little bit better. But from an emotional mental
health standpoint, it wasn't. It was a lot of
self -blame, a lot of anger. And back then, again,
early, late 90s, early 2000s, like asking for
help was weakness. It always was. And one of
the things that we put in the movie that unfortunately
got cut. It was a very real conversation I had
with one of my supervisors where I was using
the words burnt out. I went up to them and I
just said, hey, I was always very good at IVs.
For whatever reason, that was one of the skill
sets I was very gifted with. Didn't matter if
you were a diabetic or on dialysis, I could usually
get a stick on anybody. And for like a week straight,
I couldn't do it. And I remember going up to
this person and I've told this story before.
And the reason I don't name names is I'm not
mad at them. They did not have a better answer.
So this is not like they are broken. They're
terrible supervisors, leaders, whatever. And
that I'm in the wrong or they're in the wrong.
They didn't have a better answer. But I went
to them and I just said, listen, I think I'm
burning out. And I just, I don't know what's
what. I was like, I can't start an IV. I can't
hit the broadside of a barn. And that person
just. chuckle just started to laugh almost uncontrollably
and said we're all burnt out get back on the
truck and that was the first and only time i
ever asked for help and so then that just starts
to compound uh on everything else and so it was
kind of like this this is my burden to bear kind
of thing like i'm doing all of this so society
can function uh and it's not about it was never
a god complex or superhero complex but it was
just at the time it felt like a realization like
yeah this doesn't get better and There are people
that that gets very, very dark and very depressing
and leads to a lot of negative outcomes. Like
I've said before, I've had six co -workers, not
just at that location, and I'm not besmirching
in one place, but over my lifetime, I've lost
six co -workers to suicide. Seven, sorry, seven.
And so I don't want to see that number grow.
And I'm a huge advocate of whatever we can do
to help the people out there still doing the
job. Because I don't want anybody to have the
answer that was given to me. And again, not their
fault. The resources have gotten much better,
but we still have a problem. In all the conversations
I've had over the last nine years, I've become
a perpetual student. And it's just the Venn diagram
is overlined so... powerfully on what the main
issues are and you know unaddressed childhood
issues you know struggles trauma etc that we
bring into the job of absolutely a part of it
um you know what we see a part of it sleep deprivation
massive part of it if you look at the correlation
with that and mental health but one of the the
most um under what's the right word i always
Brain farts in the middle of these conversations.
Under -recognized elements is also organizational
stress or even organizational betrayal. And I
think that's where, you know, especially in EMS
only when you work in the hospitals, now you've
got this profit side and you've got the people
that are trying to save lives. And there's this
moral injury where, you know, poor decisions
by leadership in fire EMS or the healthcare system
are negatively affecting the ability for the
medics and doctors and nurses to simply do their
job. Absolutely. And I think that's the right
angle for it. I was reading something recently
and it's like, if you call it burnout, it ends
up becoming a place of blame on the provider
versus moral injury, where there are circumstances
and logistics that are way outside of your control
that are inhibiting you from being able to deliver
the care that you know they need or that you
want to be able to deliver. And to me, I think
that's the right way to look at it. And I will
give grace to administration too. Nobody gets
into this job going, all I want to do is save
money and make sure everybody dies. We're not
cartoon villains. There are a myriad of small,
what seemingly are independent decisions that
cause problems in the grand scheme of things.
So what made you ultimately pull the trigger
as far as transitioning away from an actual working
paramedic to getting into the other side, the
management administration side? I was very, very
lucky. And so what happened to me was I went
to grad school. I was still on the ambulance
in grad school, getting my master's in healthcare
administration. And I was always interested in
doing emergency preparedness or doing something
in that vein, either emergency preparedness,
emergency response type stuff. And that was where
I was. And I had the opportunity to do basically
an internship in rural health policy, which is
the first time I'd ever done policy work. So
I spent, I'd call it about eight months in this
rural health policy center, which was fascinating,
opened my eyes up to that kind of work. And then
the thing that really clicked with me was how
do we make sure that the patients understand
the care that they're getting? And I was also
deeply interested in PIO work when I actually
interned as the PIO for Lexington County for
a summer. and really loved that job my undergrads
in public relations like i enjoy writing and
speaking and educating and things like that so
to me that was always a natural fit but what
happened was the last semester of grad school
i met a hospital ceo that was deeply ingrained
in something called student group and their their
company that the listeners have never heard of.
They quite literally wrote the book on patient
experience and employee engagement for hospitals.
And Quinn Studer is the guy that wrote the book,
Hardwiring Excellence, still an excellent read.
I still highly recommend it. And as a young and
dumb college student, in the back of his first
generation of the book had his email address
and I'd read the book for some class. And I was
like, Dear Quinn, I'm a grad student at Carolina.
I need a, I need a master's level project to
finish my, my degree. Do you basically, do you
need a grad student? I still have the email.
It just was one word back. Sure. And then contact
HR. And so that's how I got started at inpatient
experience. So I, I, you know, I called the HR
lady at the company and I said, Hey, I got this
email back from Clint. Is this something that's
real or is he just going through a million emails
that day? And I got very fortunate. I was the
first ever grad student that a student group
hired. And I got to see firsthand the administrative
processes that are put in place in order for
clinicians to be successful, specifically in
the realm of patient communications and patient
experience. And really when that company was
on the come up. So I spent. six months almost
with them. And I was shadowing arguably one of
the most important consultants in the field.
For anybody who's listening that's ever heard
of the ADET, which is a healthcare mnemonic,
this man wrote the ADET. And so I was able to
learn directly from him. And that really set
my path on fire. So I've never worked administratively
for any EMS system. I've only worked in hospital
and healthcare systems. But that was really where
my career took a sharp right turn. In fact, when
I got my first job in California as a manager
of service excellence for a hospital, I still
worked on the ambulance. I had two jobs. And
the job that I had taken in the hospital was
paying much more handsomely than EMS ever could.
But I was always nervous. I'd always worked two
jobs. And my boss at the hospital called me in
and he said, look, I know you're still working
weekends over at the ambulance company. You can't
do that anymore. Like, I need you here. You know,
it's your choice to make. Like, you either work
there or you work here. I can't have you working
both. He was a great boss, fantastic boss, still
one of my one of my early mentors and friends
to this day. And I handed him my paramedic card,
my California paramedic card. And I said, you
know, if I ask for this again, you have to fire
me. He said, all right. And that's when I that's
when I officially left EMS and started working
full time administratively in hospitals. But
that was that was how I got there. It was. I
always imagined that I would go be a PIO and
stand in front of a camera and go, you know,
here's where the cloud is. Don't go to the cloud,
you know, and then was lucky enough to fall into
consulting. And that's something that I really
had a passion for because it got to combine what
I was really passionate about, making sure patients
get good care, making sure they get communicated
to, making sure we're demystifying medicine and
I get to teach. So it was this. lovely Venn diagram
of what speaks to me. And I did that for, what,
20, 10, 14 years until the movie came out. Well,
before we go to the movie, which I definitely
want to take a deep dive into, if you were king
for a day, having such a nuanced view of healthcare,
the pre -hospital world, and then the management
and the patient care world in that setting, What
would you change to improve healthcare in America?
Universal healthcare. I mean, the easy answer,
right? The very simple answer is, well, just
increase pay and everything gets better. Yes,
comma. You can't increase pay in this current
climate without talking about reimbursement rates,
the way that EMS is handled by both state, federal,
and insurance companies. And so the quickest
way to get there is universal healthcare. And
there is a way to do it. I don't claim to I like
I don't have the binder that says if you do it
this way, health care gets fixed. But there are
systematic issues that are being held together
by duct tape and chicken wire that fundamentally
need to be readdressed. And I have always been
an advocate of the U .S. health care system is
completely broken. It does not work the way it's
supposed to. It does not deliver better care.
We could prove that. quantitatively and qualitatively
than other first world nations out there so we
there are glaring uh red sirens everywhere so
i am of the belief that we need to blow it up
and fix it from the ground up and we have we
have the ability to do so but it takes dedicated
work and the understanding that you are not going
to get the benefits from all even if i changed
it today those benefits aren't going to be seen
for five or ten years it's so It's interesting
slash maddening that the principles behind so
many solutions are really very, very simple if
you look at it. I had a conversation the other
day, I forget who it was now, and I think it
was a physician, and he was talking about healthcare
is 20 % of our GDP in this country, which is
an insane amount. So, you know, where's the money?
There is all this money. And if you look at something
that I talk about a lot at the moment on the
first responder side, it's changing the firefighter
work week to a 24 -72, a healthy 42 -hour work
week. And people, again, well, how are we going
to hire all these people? It's like, well, how
much do you spend on overtime? How much do you
lose on lack of retention? How much is your workman's
comp premiums, line of duty, death payments,
medical disabilities? lawsuits on mistakes that
overworked firefighters and paramedics make.
There is your money. And I always use the healthcare
system as a comparison when you look at the UK.
I grew up, I'm a 70s child. So I grew up when
the NHS was still doing very well and it was
fully supported. And most importantly, I would
argue that the nation was very healthy. Aside
from cigarettes, as far as obesity, we really
didn't have much of anything. We had the builders
that had a bit of a beer belly. That was it.
But that's been picked apart and the American
kind of model has been pushed on them. And then
the value of a healthy society hasn't been prioritized.
So as British people have got fatter and sicker,
obviously it's strained the health care system.
And I think the most beautiful win -win of national
health is not only a beautiful altruistic model
where you all roll your sleeves up a nation and
say, we'll all go to work. And when you need.
The help, we'll give it to you. You're pregnant,
you're going to have a baby, here we go, we'll
take care of you. You're elderly, we'll take
care of you. You got hit by a bus, we'll take
care of you. But it also then, I think the main
motivation is to make the nation healthy because
if you've got a tax -based universal healthcare
system, now the fewer patients, the better, the
more resources and doctors and nurses and beds
that you have for the people that really need
it. So the money is there. As we know, as you've
said, we spend so much and actually comparatively
have a worse healthcare system than most of the
world. So it's just taking that downstream money
and front -loading it into a system. Because
people have no concept in this country what it's
like to have some sort of treatment, go to hospital
in the UK, for example, and just walk out. Not
think, how am I going to pay the tens or hundreds
of thousands of dollars back because I have the
audacity to have cancer or need a cath? So I
couldn't agree more coming from the UK now being
in America for 20 plus years. I think that's
a solution as well. But it takes courage, doesn't
it? To get past the egos and the knee jerks and
get people to see just the common sense of the
mathematics behind it. Absolutely. And this isn't
like Patrick's not a capitalist. Not that I would
worry defending myself here because, again, I've
got science to back me up on it. But to your
point exactly, people will start to say immediately.
Do you have any idea how much this costs? And
it's like, do you realize how much we're spending
now? Like Medicare and Medicaid are going to
run out of money because lots of issues. And
to be absolutely clear to anybody listening,
this is not like there's one simple solution.
You flick a light switch and that's the problem.
It's myriads of systemic problems that, like
you said, were born out of, I would argue, people's
best interests. that balloon and circle out of
control. Now, there are huge issues that started
even the year that I was born, the Ronald Reagan
administration, when he deregulated healthcare,
that started a cacophony of issues that to this
day need to be remedied. But yeah, if people
could stomach the fact that this is going to
hurt and it's going to be better in the long
run, there is a chance that in your lifetime,
you will see small benefits, but generations
after you will be better off. Yeah. Like I said,
I'm not smart enough to be able to tell you I've
got the answer to all of it, but I do know there's
a path forward that works for arguably every
other country in the world. So we are not that
special. Well, this is the thing. I'll give you
the perfect example. The firefighter helmet.
There is an absolute refusal to change the helmet.
And there's this confusion with that being tradition
and all that stuff. It's like, no, it's a hat.
like once that was the latest greatest thing
it was the newest thing you know before people
weren't wearing helmet like what are you a pussy
you're gonna buy a helmet you know now all of
a sudden we're romanticizing this helmet is literally
about 90 years old by that point and that is
not you know that is not the the latest and greatest
and and you know people make fun of the european
helmets i'm like all right well then make an
american version if you need to develop the latest
greatest in america that's fine but for fuck's
sake make it Don't just lean on this one and
say, oh, you know, I'll wear this till I die
because you will because it's shit and it is
full of carcinogens and all the things. And it's
the same thing, that resistance to change because
of this arguably narcissistic, ego -driven facade
that you are the greatest country in the world
and everything that we do is better than anyone
else rather than going, there are areas of what
we do in our culture that are phenomenal and
there are areas that we do that aren't so good.
And 70 % of the nation being obese or overweight
is a good example that maybe not everything that
we're doing is working properly. The fact that
our children have to rehearse their murders in
their schools, maybe it's not the greatest thing.
So having the humility to say, all right, the
UK. Not even now, like what was the original
plan of the NHS and how did it go wrong for you?
And what can we do to make it better? You know,
Norway, tell me about your prisons, Portugal,
drug decriminalization, Finland, your education
system. And if we just had the humility to look
at other countries that are doing things well,
arguably better than us, then the rising tide
lifts all ships and we will improve the things
that need improving too. But as you said, if
we're ego driven, we're just going to keep sinking.
I agree. And I think part of that goes all the
way back to, again, I have a very unique outlook
because I'm first generation. I had the opportunity
to go to multiple countries as part of my growing
up. And so I didn't have the nationalist streak.
I'm certainly patriotic and grateful that I'm
an American, but I didn't suffer from the, we're
the only country and we're the only ones that
get it right. So I think there's a distinct line
there. But the other thing, too, is like I remember,
again, like six years old, kindergarten, first
grade, whatever. And I was like, I'm Canadian,
you know, go Canada. That doesn't play well in
central Illinois. So it's like, you know, yeah,
I always I always laughed at that. Like, yeah,
I'm fortunate. I have I have two passports. And
so like you're asking me to pick which one's
better. And it's like, well, what's the what's
the question we're answering? Yeah, exactly.
French toast, I'd say Canada. I mean, look at
America, excuse me, America. All right, well,
then let's kind of move forward from there. Back
to writing. At what point as we've progressed
through your life story so far, did the idea
of even putting some of your experiences as a
paramedic on paper? So this is one of those funny
things, too. So remember, I said my undergrads
in public relations. And at the time, part of
the program required me to take a creative writing
class. It was just a homework assignment. This
entire film was an accident. It was a homework
assignment. I had come off this 14 hour shift
that was supposed to be 12. So, you know, just
gnarly. And I almost didn't go to class that
day. And it was at 10 o 'clock. So I got no sleep.
I literally got home, took a shower, took my
uniform off and put clothes on and went to class.
And this professor kind of leaned back, kicked
his feet up on the desk and said, if you want
to tell a compelling story, write what you know.
And I just remember thinking, you want a story?
I'll tell you a story. Went home and was like
possessed. I just, it was a 36 page short story.
It was never a script. And it was just kind of
like me screaming into the void, being burnt
out. And like, yeah, here's this problem. And
this is funny. And it was very dark. It was very
twisted. It's very different than the movie that
everybody saw. But I turned it in, I got an A
on it, and that was it. It was a homework. I
sent it to my family as a laugh. I said, you
know, here's what my job is like. And it was
just this kind of darkly funny story that I sent
to my parents and my brother. And that was it.
I graduated and went to college or finished college,
finished grad school. And I had gotten a job
in California, my first job out of grad school.
And my brother is a VFX producer. He puts CGI
stuff in film and commercials. And I was visiting
him. I had, like I said, a month between when
I moved out there and was just enjoying Southern
California, LA. And he goes, you need to do something
with your life. Write a script. I said, I don't
know anything about writing a script. What do
you want me to do? He said, well, you got that
short story from college. Just turn that into
a script. I don't know how to do that. And he
said, well, here's the software, just do it.
And so I did. Over the week, I wrote the first
draft of Code 3. The original title was what
I called the short story is Fake Stories from
a Real Ambulance Driver. And so I loved that
title, but it didn't work. And that was it. I
wrote the first draft. I rewrote it a couple
of times. I had no idea what I was doing. was
like i basically turned into my brother like
here you go and my and the the fortunate thing
is that chris leone who's the director of the
film and my brother at that time were co -workers
so they both worked at a vfx house and so my
brother strikes up a conversation with chris
and says hey chris do you want to read a script
to which chris says absolutely not which is the
right answer And he said, well, what's it about?
And he said, it's about being a paramedic. Well,
what's your brother know about that? And he's
like, well, he is one for, has been one for 10
years. So ultimately the shorter version is that
Chris finally decided to read the first draft
of the script. And the first script was trash.
I'm not defending it. It wasn't great, but it
was good enough to get his attention. And he
said, well, you know, let's, let's have lunch.
I'd like to meet him. And so we went and had,
we had lunch. And the, one of the questions Chris
asked me the first time I met him, It was, tell
me something that as an outsider, I would have
no idea about. He never asked me what the worst
thing was I ever saw. But he was just like, tell
me something that from a complete outside that
I would have no idea. And I just started laughing.
And I just said, well, Chris, I know what brains
smell like. And he almost fell out of his chair.
And he was just like, that's fascinating. And
I want to be involved. And so it was just a passion
project between the three of us. Nobody got paid.
This was not like, no studio was like, we can't
wait to make this movie. It was literally us
every couple of weeks emailing back and forth,
hey, what do you think about this scene? Or not
touching it for a month, oh, I had this idea.
And so anybody who tells you they did it fast
and Hollywood's is lying to you, depending on
when you measure from. If you measure from when
I wrote the short story to when we started shooting,
it was 15 years. If you measure from when Chris
got involved, it was 12 years. So nobody got
paid until we started turning the cameras on.
But that's literally how it started. It was a
homework assignment that turned into a script
because my brother pushed me to do it. And then
he got Chris to read it. And fortunately, it
was good enough to get his attention. I tell
everybody, I was always good at writing. I'd
written stuff for EMS World and the Joint Commission
and some other publications. So this isn't like,
oh, thank God they found me. I knew I was a good
writer. To get the validation enough for someone
who's in entertainment to pay attention to it
and get hooked on the story, the central themes
of the story was really meaningful. What was
it that took 12 years? And there's a reason why
I ask that aside, which is I've written two books
now. And the second one, I've started the process
of getting it into ultimately becoming a streaming
series. chris and i and was just you know really
like it but then comes the feedback like he rain
is not only an incredibly talented actor but
he's also a producer and a writer and you know
he's like i have some thoughts let's what if
we tweak this and did that so that took about
six months um and then once rain was happy with
it and he he absolutely said like i want to play
randy like this is my guy He had connections
to Wayfair, which was the studio that got involved,
which got us financing and the rest of the way.
So the inefficiencies are kind of the opaque
parts of the market. You don't know what people
want, right? Like the pit caught fire, but nobody
was asking for a medical drama show. So you are
throwing darts at a wall and ultimately they're
gatekeepers there. And if you want to write,
I don't know. Like, if you look back in the past
three or four years, if it wasn't horror, the
chance of getting greenlit wasn't much. If it's
adult animation, probably not going to get that
done. But those tastes change. And then you have
things like The Pit. I'll throw Code 3 in there,
where people didn't know that's what they wanted,
and then they start watching it. So it's the
inefficiencies are the people that are trying
to appease the algorithm now. And consolidation
is always a bad thing. So no matter who buys
Warner Brothers, it's bad for the market because
ultimately what used to be entertainment companies
are becoming tech companies. And it's about what
does the algorithm want versus what do humans
want? And that is something that bothers me,
but it's also the reality of where we are. That's
really interesting. It doesn't help me at all
because it's a very human story, so I'm screwed
then. With the fusion of the comedy and the burnout
story, was that something that you had initially
in the script, or was that something that Rain
brought to the conversation? No, it was in the
first draft. In fact, Chris, if you listen to
any of his interviews, he'll tell you the first
time he read it, he loved the idea that we were
telling a story through comedy. And I think he
came up with the phrase, the best way to tell
the truth is through humor. And that was always
one of the central things, even in the first
draft of the script was, even when I was writing
it, the short story in that, it was never, come
worship me because I'm a hero. It was, look at
this goofy stuff that happens in the name of
healthcare. Or this is stupid and I don't like
it and I'm going to yell about it kind of thing.
It was really, like I said, me screaming into
the void. you know having some punchy lines and
some funniness in there so that was always part
of its organic dna now rain and rel and amy and
and rob and yvette like you couldn't have asked
for better people to take that to the next level
um but it was always central to the theme of
the film was we wanted to tell something funny
but we also wanted it to hit hard and so we never
shied away from the darker aspects of the job
because that went hand in glove with the honest
portrayal of the job. And I have said, I had
the opportunity to go talk to the National Registry,
the board of the National Registry. And one of
the goals of this film really was to be a recruitment
tool. And I know that sounds silly or braggadocious,
depending on your perspective, is that we wanted
to tell such an honest story that if you were
curious about what this job is, hopefully this
movie shows you that. So if you are naively thinking
that you're going to put a cape on and just go
save the world. You'll self -select out before
you devote too much time into this career. And
the flip side of that, too, is like if you got
into it for the right reasons, you could see
a mirror of it and say, like, you're not alone.
And so the goal is always to bring more people
into the field by being honest, because if you
watch any TV show or movie about us, it's always
like they're either doofuses. They're the people
that declare people dead or they're just a bunch
of guys. you know, thinking between their legs,
trying to get the next thing. And we didn't want
to do any of that. We wanted to be true to the
job and pay homage to what I think is arguably
one of the noblest professions out there. Yeah,
you did a great job. I mean, one of the scenes,
I don't want to obviously talk too much about
it because I want people to watch it. But there
is that I think it's one of the fourth wall moments
where he's talking to the camera, I think. But
he's talking about the decapitated two year old.
And I've literally had a decapitated two year
old in. in a traffic accident. And it just was
like a punch to the face when he started talking
about that. But you've got all the shenanigans
and the laughter and the burnout and the tantrums
and everything else. And all of a sudden, it
just grabs you for a moment. It's like, but let
me tell you about what we actually go through.
And again, it's not everything. Like you said,
one minute you're doing a rolled ankle. And I've
had a guy that didn't like his dentures and called
911. And we had to take a ride along because
he was combative as well. So you have those,
but then you have these horrific calls as well.
And they do add up. So I thought you did a really
good job of using comedy to kind of pull the
story along, but not afraid every so often to
slam on the brakes and just kind of hold a scene,
you know, a much more kind of raw scene in front
of us before then it carries on again. And one
of the best comments that I've received that
I really like are when I see the reviews or some
people have found me on like Instagram and stuff
like that, not that I'm hard to find, but are
the ones that go, you know, basically some version
of thank you for this because now I could show
my family what my job is like without me having
to tell the story every single day. Or the ones
that are like I feel seen or, you know, those
are the kind of ones that I care about personally.
And we got it right. Like, yeah, don't get me
wrong. I love appreciation and praise as much
as the next guy. But the ones where they're like,
I am now sharing this with my significant other,
my of age children. You don't, this is not a
kid's movie. Let me be clear. But like, I could
show this to my family and it helps us have the
conversation. And to me, like, that's like, I
wish this movie existed when I was working. full
-time so that way I could share it for that same
reason. So for me, those are the ones that matter
the most. And then of course the ones that are
like, you know, you got it right. You know, that
we're, you know, we're not being, we're not cartoons
and we're not superheroes. Like that kind of
stuff really matters. What about the doctor,
the way you portray the ER physician? I've had
some phenomenal ER physicians throughout my career,
like really, really great people that were the
complete polar opposite of that. But we all kind
of know a version of that character too. What
made you make that? that be the primary person
every single time they went to the ER? So let
me be clear. Dr. Serrano is not a real person.
He is a culmination of exactly what you said,
that guy or girl, right? We've all ran into him.
He is a cartoon. He is absolutely cartoon, but
versions of him exist everywhere. And like you
said, some of my closest friends are still our
docs that I worked with. I still have their phone
number. They're great people. Most doctors are.
This is not a site against doctors or cops or
anybody else. But we had to tell a compelling
story. And to make it really hit, we needed a
foil that could stand up to Rainn Wilson. We
needed somebody that could basically beat up
Rainn. And so we get Rob Riggle, who is delightful.
amazing human uh he's so nice he's so great to
work with uh but we had to have somebody there
that would kind of punch back and we needed that
so this isn't er docs are bad it was just we
needed somebody uh that could stand up to rain
and those interactions that are being had some
are in jest some are in frustration and the reason
we have that there's a scene that humanizes him
like i said we're not going to spoil it but there's
a scene where he talks about the stressors that
he's under working in the emergency room. And
so what you come to realize is like these two
people really hate each other, but they hate
each other for the exact same reason. It's not
them. It's the systems that they're working under.
And I think he's burnt out too, basically. Yeah,
he's burnt out too. But I think if you really
look at it, they really respect each other because
what happens when they later on in the film,
when they really get heated, there's a mutual
respect to do the right thing, but they're coming
at it from different angles. Absolutely. Well,
one more area, and then we'll go to some closing
questions. I won't go too deeply because, again,
I don't want to give away the kind of latter
part of the story. But a truth that's come out
of so many transition stories in the military
and first responders is we were called to this
profession to truly to make the world a little
bit better. There's more to it than that, but
there is a service element to it. Where I see
people really struggle when they transition out
is if they find themselves in some sort of other
profession where there isn't that service. Maybe
it is purely money focused or sales focused,
for example. And so, you know, without taking
a deep dive into that, I thought that was a really
good part of the story to, you know, understanding
that even if you're burnt out and even if ultimately
you transition to another version of something.
If you're not serving, it's going to be incredibly
jarring. So we can't just flawlessly transition
into Wall Street and now just chase money and
want Rolexes and Ferraris and think that's going
to be the perfect bridge for a first responder
or a military member. Who we are really does
dictate whether we stay in a profession the full
20, 25 years and or whatever comes next still
has an element of serving woven into it. I agree.
I was very fortunate that as I was transitioning
out of clinical medicine, I got to do something
that I felt was a service. Again, my role was
very niched. I got to work inpatient experience
for the better part of a dozen years. And to
me, what I would always say is when I was in
the ambulance, I got to make a decision that
made a huge difference in one person, maybe two,
three at the absolute worst, people's lives at
one time. I'm working in the hospital system
where the decisions I make impact thousands of
lives because I'm working on systematic projects
that impact people to make sure that they understand
the care that they're getting, that they feel
seen and heard, et cetera. So my transition was
very easy. There was a very easy lane for me
to fit into. Now, I got very, very lucky. But
to your point, yeah, I think it would be really
hard for somebody to go from paramedic to car
salesman. Because I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, I've surveyed a few first responders
and to a point, they all say some version of
I got into this role to help. That's why I got
into it. We want to help people. That's why we
got into it. And then the systematic issues start
to build and you get into that moral hazard,
the moral injury territory where I know what
I need to do. I know what I want to do. And not
because I can't, because I'm unable to provide
that. And I think that is. That's really challenging.
We really did. We watched The Hurt Locker and
we frankly stole a lot from The Hurt Locker.
We really liked that movie. But there's a scene
in The Hurt Locker when he comes, when he rotates
back stateside, he's just in the grocery store
and it's sterile white. And he's just like more
terrifying than trying to diffuse a bomb in Afghanistan.
Like that's kind of the same thing. Now, again,
I'll say this again. I've never served in the
military. I don't claim to respect all the people
that do. But to me, I would imagine that it's
something similar to that. Absolutely. Well,
I want to throw some closing questions at you
before I let you go. The first one I love to
ask, is there a book or are there books that
you'd love to recommend? It can be related to
our discussion today or completely unrelated.
A Thousand Naked Strangers by Kevin Hazard. Love
that book. I just recently, I haven't met him
in person, but after the movie came out, he reached
out to me and we got a chance to chat for a little
bit. But I read that book, God, I think the year
it came out. And that guy, he got it right. So
if you haven't read A Thousand Naked Strangers,
you need to. Great, great EMS book. In fact,
as I was writing my story, I was just like, well,
he already did it. Like, I'm done. What do I
need to do? But fantastic book. For anybody who's
interested in the patient experience kind of
journey stuff, Hardwiring Excellence by Quinn
Studer. That was the book that got me into the
field that I was in. Great book. He's putting
me on the spot. I grew up, my dad was a huge
advocate of how to win friends and influence
people. And I think that's still to this day,
a great book to read and take a hold of. You
know, I'm blanking. You put me on the spot here.
I wasn't prepared for that question. No, that's
not what you've already said, though. They're
all great books. I had Kevin on a while ago now.
He wrote American Sirens as well about the original
paramedics out of Pittsburgh and the Freedom
House back in the 60s, but they were all African
-American. So that story kind of got rewritten
a little bit. Whitewashed, I think, is the term.
And, you know, we all thought that the original
EMS was in Miami and L .A. and in the 70s. But
it predates that. So it does a great job paying
homage to them, too. Yes, exactly. Absolutely.
All right. Well, we'll talk about your film in
a minute. But what about other films, television
shows and documentaries that you love? Oh, man.
You know, I feel like you have to say the cliche
things, Mother Jugs and Speed bringing out the
dead. They were good. They were arguably not
my favorite. And I'm sure I'll get yelled at
in the comments for that. But I think they were
the first real attempts to kind of explain our
world. And of course, you know, The Godfather
is amazing. The Hurt Locker, again, was a huge
inspiration for our film. If you haven't seen
it, you need to go see it. Just know that I unfortunately
am blanking on the filmmakers' names, but they
were fabulous in that film. You know, as far
as comedies go, I grew up watching Mel Brooks.
I think he's spectacular at everything that he
touches. Rob Reiner, The Princess Diaries. Unfortunately,
rest in peace. That was a horrific murder that
just came out the other day. But really the things
that we were a big comedy house at growing up.
And so we would watch, like I said, Mel Brooks.
John Cleese, all that kind of stuff. And those
were always things that really, really impacted
me. One of my favorite movies ever. There's,
there's two movies that I love that, you know,
I will get in fights defending, even though they
don't deserve it. The first one is there's a
movie called undercover blues. I think an early
nineties movie, Dennis Quaid. And the reason
I love that movie is that Stanley Tucci plays
this hit man. And it's the movie is wacky. But
Stanley Tucci's character to me makes the whole
film because the central concept is like these
are two CIA agents trying to do something. And
Morty. Stanley Tucci plays this hitman whose
name is Muerte and they keep calling him Morty.
And it's just like this comedic foil that's like
perfectly timed. Every time he comes in, they
beat him up and they just always keep calling
him like, Morty, I don't have time for this.
And they go beat him up and he goes away and
he comes back around later in the movie. The
reason I say I love that movie is even as a kid,
my brother, my dad and I were all big movie fans
and we would always be like, movie needs a Morty.
And we would always reference that movie. And
the other one is arguably one of my favorite
movies called The Hudson Hawk. Very young Bruce
Willis. The movie is objectively terrible. It
got a raspberry, I think, in the 90s. It deserved
the raspberry. The entire plot makes no sense.
And I love this film for one reason only. I'm
sorry, two reasons. There is the banter between
Bruce Willis and his partner throughout the entire
film, I think, is just absolutely chef's kiss
perfect. And then if you watch that movie and
all you care about is does Bruce Willis get a
cup of coffee? Cinematic masterpiece. Nothing
else makes sense. The movie is awful, but it's
one of my absolute favorites. And I highly recommend
both of those to anybody, because I think if
I was a film student, those would be my my my
keystone movies. I make everybody watch. So those
those two things and even in the film in Code
3, like. The film Needs a Morty, we have, you
know, different characters that kind of play
that. The banter between Mike and Randy, ultimately,
at least from, I can't speak for Chris, but for
my, came from that Hudson Hawk banter between
Bruce Willis and his character and his partner.
So I love those films. I'm trying to think, what
were the other questions you asked me? You asked
me about films and what? yeah it's okay films
documentaries television so oh uh there's any
any of the screen stuff basically yeah there
was a there was a show called um third watch
that i thought did a really good job of doing
it of doing showing public safety that i enjoyed
watching um so that was good documentary wise
uh i'm a huge science nerd and and my wife makes
fun of me because i i love like how the universe
works and thinking about like everything from
particle physics to black holes, but none of
that has any bearing on this. It's just something
that I find fascinating that I could never do
the math on. But anything to do with, with that
kind of stuff fascinates me. So I always love
those types of, of things where you could tie
in like deep unknown truths about the universe
and trying to make them human in some way, shape
or form. And Yeah, I don't know. I don't know
if I'm derailing your podcast or not, but you
asked me. No, no, no. Those are my answers. No,
that's great. I love the way, you know, the reasons
behind some of the films. It's funny, you talk
about the coffee. I guarantee you that that probably
was inspiration for the fall guy. Because if
you notice, Ryan Gosling through the whole film
is trying to get a cup of coffee and there's
all these fight scenes that happen. So probably
inspired by that. Totally reminds me. One of
the whole themes of Code 3, I mean, way before.
like this version got scrapped but the whole
thing was rain didn't eat or well rain wasn't
even attached yet the whole one of the running
gags was every time the emails was going to pull
in to get a meal they get a call and so it was
just like once we decided it was a 24 -hour shift
we're like We have to feed him. But the earlier
versions of the script was literally, he's just
hangry the entire time from breakfast on. And
it was one of my things I was always big on.
He doesn't get to eat through the entire movie.
And then obviously, once you make it a 24 -hour
shift, he has to eat. Yeah, but it was good.
Even when he does, that scene works 100%. Have
you seen Asphalt City? Sean Penn plays a paramedic.
I've heard. No, I have not. I've heard about
it, though. OK, so that they did a good job,
but they made it so dark that I would argue it
was the opposite of a recruitment tool. I won't
say any more than that. Absolutely. He's NYPD
or was it called Black Flies? I know he did one.
No, he's he plays a paramedic. But FDNY paramedic,
if I'm right. So he's a New York paramedic. I've
heard about that one. Very, very dark. Very dark.
So I think darkness is great. But I think. If
you have darkness, that gives you the opportunity
to really then show the light and vice versa.
But if it's just all dark, you know. Yeah, you
can't you could be dark and it turns into bleakness
if you're not careful. Yeah, exactly. I would
I would argue that probably does. All right.
Well, then the next question, is there a person
you'd recommend to come on this podcast as a
guest to speak to the first responders, military
and associated professions of the world? Oh,
wow. I mean. So I've had the good fortune to
meet a lot of people that are in this field.
Rob Lawrence, who's the executive director of
the California Animal Association. I've known
Rob for years. In fact, we were podcasting before.
Podcasting was cool in the early 2010s with Chris
Sabalero and him talking about EMS leadership.
Chris Holden, who's a dear friend of mine, he
owns and operates First Priority Medical Transport.
or mobile healthcare in South Carolina. He was
the roommate I was talking about earlier that
would force me to go to the gym together. He's
a growing voice. Henry Lewis, who's the head
of the South Carolina EMS Association. Bill Seifert
from the National Registry. His story is fascinating.
Justin Rapoff, Dr. Justin Rapoff, a childhood
friend of mine. Literally, I've known him since
seven or eight years old. He's one of the EMS
heads for St. Louis EMS. St. Louis, Missouri.
Man. But yeah, those people are Chris Sabalero.
I think I mentioned his name. He's really good
too. He's a leadership consultant now. Rob Riggle
would absolutely be fabulous because he's a former
Marine officer. He has his own podcast called
Riggle's Picks, which is a great podcast. You
should listen to that too. Rain, obviously, Amy,
Yvette, anybody. Those are the people. Lil Rel,
he's great. Those people are all fundamentally
great human beings. I know that they're celebrities,
but they're... fabulous people i highly recommend
chris leone certainly um if you wanted to learn
more about the film and his backstory um who
else yeah those are the ones that come to mind
right off the top of my head um but yeah all
and you couldn't go wrong with any of them they're
they're all great people they're all passionate
people that care a lot about what they do and
and um making the world better which to me are
the people that that i'm very attracted to yeah
that's literally fundamentally how i'm bringing
people together for my project there's zero dollars
attached to it at the moment so it's showing
people this is this is the idea with the story
and there's an accompanying element to it as
well you know the goal is to you know literally
try and bring some healing back into the world
and you know if that resonates with people okay
and then we can start building everything around
it but just like you you know it's you got to
have good humans around you in that kind of project
if you're just going to make some minus action
movie and put some you know superstar in the
front and Not really worry about the script and
just slap it on Netflix, then good for you. But
I mean, when I ask the questions about films
that really resonate with people, the number
of times I hear, you know, Band of Brothers and,
you know, Shawshank Redemption and some of these
really powerful human stories that that actually
are impacting people. So, yeah, that's the kind
of human I want to surround myself even even
with this this not only the show, but more importantly,
the podcast, too. It doesn't matter if you're
a Hollywood star, you know, or or. you're my
best friend or something you know what i mean
it's the same thing yeah absolutely and then
the nice thing is there's no shortage of really
good people they're just not typically celebrities
like most of them are like and again i hate to
bring this back to my mom but like she wasn't
a celebrity but man the people that came out
of the woodwork when they found out she was no
longer with us was i mean that's when you see
the impact and hopefully uh i hope people get
recognized while they're still with us and not
after they're in a coffin um because there's
a lot of people doing a lot of great work that
um don't get the accolades that they need or
that they deserve publicly yeah well i think
that's how we turn things around when when when
the spotlight even though they wouldn't want
it on them is put on the people that are healing
that are bringing people together you know that's
when we turn it around you know if the As we've
seen, sadly, more recently, if the microphones
and the spotlights are putting on the people
that are even just self -serving or divisive,
then you end up with this kind of increased stress
and lack of community. So it's the good humans,
whatever their backgrounds are, that we need
more now than ever. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm
trying to think like you said it perfectly. I'm
going to just stop talking. Feel free to edit
that out. Well, you know, there's a lot of great
people out there. All right, well, let's go back.
So before we talk about where people can find
the film, one last question. What do you do to
decompress? You know, for me, I love to cook.
So I'm really good at it. I enjoy it. To me,
it's kind of. Whenever, no matter what happens,
you know, when I get into the kitchen and I start
figuring out what I'm doing and planning a meal
and making something and you start working at
it and the smells come out and everything, that
to me really helps center me because it's one
of those things where you have to be present
or else you'll screw it up. And especially if
you want to do something extra special or you
want to make it not Kraft mac and cheese, not
that I'm knocking it, it's delicious, but you
know. That to me is something I really like artistic
things. So I like to do ceramics and I've just
recently started getting a dabbling in woodworking.
And so I think that gets me out of the head of,
you know, quote work and being able to express
myself some artistic fashion. I obviously like
to write. I still do. I write poetry and stuff
that no one will ever see, but it's a nice little
outlet. And then I've been fortunate enough to
have the privilege to travel. And I still think
that's one of the best things that. that anybody
can do and that I've had the opportunity, the
fortune enough to be able to do, to be able to,
you know, just say, you know, let's, let's take
a weekend trip and my wife and I'll, I'll go
and go, go visit someplace and, and spend a few
days just decompressing away from both of our
respective work things that we have to focus
on. And To me, that's really important. Spending
time with the people you really like. I'm very
fortunate. I have a fantastic wife. I love her.
She's fabulous. She's one of my favorite humans,
so I love spending time with her. I'm very, very
lucky in that when I put stuff on the shelf,
I can come home and be home and spend time with
people that I really like. I have a corgi, too,
and he's adorable. That makes life easy. Just
going back, because I meant to ask you and I
didn't. You talked about the burnout that you
had while you were still working EMS. What were
the tools that helped you get out of that state?
Therapy, full stop. Friends are great. And I
had a lot of friends. Most of my friends were
cops, firefighters, and medics. And we were all
kind of mirrors of each other. So it didn't really
help when you were just complaining and it just
keeps stacking. But I tell everybody, I got to
give the commencement speech at a recent paramedic
graduation. And what I told all of them, It was
the same advice I gave to the Colorado EMS Association
was that you need to take the vacations when
you get the time. When you've earned your time,
it's not a fallacy to take a vacation. You fundamentally
need to be able to step away from this job and
recenter yourself, which means it can't be like
a day off. You need purposeful vacations that
they cannot call you. They cannot get in touch
with you. preferably out of where you work, like
your area, your geographic area, if you work,
you need to take your time because this job will
take it from you. You need to make friends with
normies, people who are not in this industry,
because they will be a great mirror for you for
when you start to change and you can't see it.
Make sure you make friends with like engineers,
school teachers, whatever. Anybody who's not
at all associated with fire, EMS, dispatch, or
police. And then the other one, too, is get help.
And I mean that sincerely. I was very burnt out.
I didn't realize how burnt out I was. the therapy
is not, is not weakness. And I think that if
there's anything that's going to be on my tombstone,
I think that's it. And like, I went to therapy
regularly for the better part of two and a half
years. And again, I, I was very, very lucky,
no drugs, no, I didn't want to kill myself. But
becoming what I would consider fully human again
was, was, was a path forward was, was work. It
takes work. It sucks. It's hard. But you put
in the work if you have a good therapist. And
that doesn't mean that the first one you get
works for you. I went through like two or three
of them before I found the one that was the right
fit for me. And what I advocate for with people
all the time is let's say you're healthy now.
And I hope you are. Do the pre -work now. Go
vet the therapist. Go vet the people. Like do
a check -in. Just make sure they take your insurance.
Do all of the crap right now. So that way tomorrow
when you need that help, you've got all that
stuff laid out. Because what I've heard from
lots of industry professionals is like, we have
an EAP, a robust employee assistance program
is what I always hear. And I say, great, have
you vetted it? And what I mean by that is exactly
what I told you. The most that I see, you get
six free sessions. Usually they're with a coach,
they're not with a therapist. And as soon as
you're done with those six, like good luck, you're
on your own. So I think EAP programs are fantastic
and we should continue to invest in them. Giant
asterisks. You're going to need somebody to continue
that work forward. And to do that, you got to
do a little bit of pre -work. And this isn't
like you're all broken, you poor souls. But if
you do the work now, trust me, when you need
it later, it will be a much easier process. I've
lost count how many EAP horror stories I've heard.
And there, as you said, there are. people that
use that blueprint you know vet their therapists
and have a really great system you know some
even have unlimited sessions available so i'm
excluding them but the number of times that i've
heard someone go to an eap listed practitioner
if they even answered the phone or if their number
was even in service and they sat in front of
the person who wasn't culturally competent and
that person burst into tears or that person told
them they get out they can't help them I've lost
count how many times I've heard that. And I always
say this. What really breaks my heart is I heard
those because those people are still alive. How
many have we lost because of a broken EAP system
where they finally had the courage to ask for
help? They sat in front of the wrong person.
They said they couldn't help them. They went
home. They stuck a gun in their mouth. vetting
from the personal point of view. I think that's
such great advice, especially if you are not
in a bad place. Now is the perfect time because
you've got a clear mind. But if you are the employer
as well, making sure that those names on that
list are still there, are answering the phone,
don't have a six -month waiting list, and then
most importantly, have ever even worked with
the population that you serve. Yeah, I will echo
that immediately. Yeah. If you are a leader in
any of the public service agencies, tomorrow,
tomorrow, when you go to work, call your EAP
and find out like exactly what you said. Cause
I went through that the first, you know, you
get the list of people and the first one's dead.
The second one's in a different state. The third
one isn't seeing new clients. The fourth one
doesn't take your insurance. Like if you were
a leader in any service right now, tomorrow,
call your EAP and find out and whittle that list
down because yes, your industry or your organization
probably did invest with the best of intentions
on an EAP program. But that EAP program, speaking
from experience and from, like you said, the
horror stories I've heard, may not be up to date.
I hope it is. And I hope you have a great one.
But it is your job as a leader to make sure that
your people, when they reach for help, can get
that help. And don't settle for the list. Like
you as the leader, call through that list and
make sure that it's accurate and up to date.
Absolutely. All right. Well, then for people
listening, firstly, where can they find the film?
Ah, we are on Apple and Amazon right now to rent
or buy. And Amazon, you can buy a physical DVD
copy on Amazon right now. I know that they are
working on a streaming deal, but none of that
is finalized. So I don't even know if that's
going to happen yet. As the writer, unfortunately,
I'm not part of those conversations. So basically,
I'll get an email someday if it happens. And
that says, hey, we've got a deal. But right now,
the only way you can watch it is for rent or
purchase on Apple or Amazon digitally, or you
can actually buy the DVD on Amazon right now.
Beautiful. And then what about you? If people
want to reach out to you, learn more about you,
where are the best places online? Well, if you
can spell my name correctly, I'm very easy to
find on Instagram and Facebook. It's Patrick
Pinnett's on those various platforms. But yeah,
that's where I live. Those are the only handles
that I have right now. Beautiful. Well, I want
to thank you so much. It's been such an amazing
conversation. Of course, it was the film that
ultimately connected us, but your perspective
on everything from the volunteer and EMS through
to the other side of healthcare. And one of the
first people, honestly, that's been in that space
has talked about universal healthcare as well.
It's been such an amazing conversation. So I
want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thanks for having us. And I send
everyone, I end all of my interviews with this
right now. For anybody who's doing the job, I
don't care where you are or what it is that you
do. Thank you for what you do because I know
you'll never hear it enough. So you're going
to hear it from me today. Thank you for what
you do. It matters. You are very important and
what you're doing is saving lives. So I appreciate
it. And that's coming from somebody who did the
job for 12 years. So keep up the good work. Do
what you can.