This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the
first staffing software to be truly firefighter
proof. Now, you may be wondering why I have software
as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical
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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Geering, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show 30 -year law enforcement
veteran, director of the Ontario Provincial Police
Association, and author Rob Jameson. Now, in
this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,
from Rob's journey into the world of law enforcement,
fighting organized crime, protecting the indigenous
population, entering the union leadership position
after fraudulent practices of the previous administration,
how they were able to rebuild trust amongst the
ranks and leadership, mental health, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Rob
Jameson. Enjoy. Well, Rob, I want to start by
saying thank you so much for taking the time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Yeah, thank you very much for having me. It's
a true privilege and honor. Thank you, James.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? You're finding me in about a foot
of snow in Barrie, Ontario. And I live here with
my family. I just recently retired from the Ontario
Provincial Police and our police union, the OPP
Association. And that's where I reside. And as
I was mentioning to you, I still have to go out
and shovel some snow. So thank you very much
for having me on today. Like I said, it's a real
privilege. Thank you. Yeah, well, I'm excited
for this conversation. Starting at the very beginning
of your timeline then, tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
Yeah, so I was born in Toronto, but what was
formerly known, I guess, as North York General.
And my family, we didn't have a whole lot financially
sort of growing up. We had a pretty solid family.
I feel really blessed. We lived on a farmhouse
that my parents rented off the farmers in Richmond
Hill. It was on a dairy farm. So we lived there
for a few years when I was young. And it's interesting.
To this day, even as a young child, and as you
know, these things sort of affect. It's amazing
what happens in your youth that continues to
affect you throughout your life. And there's
different nuances. But we moved from there to
a small town called Port Perry, which is about
an hour northeast of Toronto. So I grew up in
a small town and have some amazing. family, some
amazing friends up until today. Went to university
in Thunder Bay, Ontario. I went to Lakehead University.
And I have one brother. He lives in Singapore.
He's a teacher. I have his wife and his son.
And I have a lovely wife, Leah, and my daughters.
One is in university going through to be a commercial
airline pilot. And my other daughter, which she's
talking about right now. possibly getting into
a profession of policing and law enforcement.
So, you know, strong, capable, powerful women.
And, you know, just, I've been blessed with a
great family. And like I said, and friends. And,
you know, it's, like I said, we didn't have a
whole lot, but that's okay. I, you know, it's
always kept me grounded. And especially in the
type of police work that I got into and joining
the Ontario Provincial Police in 1995. We police.
It's very similar to the state troopers, similar
to like a Michigan state trooper kind of model
where you're doing the highways, but you're also
policing, providing policing services to small
towns and municipalities and medium sized communities.
So it was a great spot. And being from a small
town and policing small towns, it's exactly what
I love to do. What did your parents do as far
as occupation? So my dad, it's been a tough year.
Just on that note, my dad, we just recently got
dad into a nursing home. And so it's been exceptionally
tough. My mom grew up on military bases in Petawawa
and Borden, went to high school. Her dad, my
grandfather, was in World War II. He was a combat
engineer. France, Italy. many of the front lines
ahead of the front lines and Korea. And so my
mom grew up in a, in a pretty structured environment,
shall we say? And she was a nurse and it was
just, just an incredible human being. And then
my dad, just an awesome guy too, but we all grew
up playing hockey. He owned a sports store in
a small town and he was an accountant on a dealership,
that sort of thing. And yeah, like I said, I
just. I've just been really, really blessed.
And, you know, it's, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to
hear about your dad. I mean, that's a hard decision
to have to make. It's tough. It's like so many
people have had to go through it or going through
it, will go through it. It's a tough system to
navigate. It's not something that it takes a
lot of energy, but you do it. You step up. because
these are the ones that you love and that they've
taken care of you. And yeah, he's content and
he's in a good place and they treat him with
respect. So I appreciate your words. Thank you,
James. You mentioned that your grandfather was
a World War II veteran. Were you ever able to
hear him talking about the war at all? Well,
it's interesting you say that. No, my grandfather
experienced some pretty severe things. We would
only hear He did not speak like some veterans,
him and my grandmother. My grandmother is 103,
actually. She's a World War II veteran. She was
in the RCAF Women's Division in World War II.
And I often ask her still to this day, I said,
tell us about the time you're up in the Harvards,
you know, when they're doing the bombing runs
at the gunnery school you were at and stuff.
And she walks a quarter mile a day. She's at
103. She's just incredible. But my grandfather,
even when he went into... um the nursing home
i know my mom uh you know they had you know they
would have conversations and it's you know they
would say hey listen um my grandfather was such
an incredible human being didn't talk about it
um and you know went to the legion and uh you
know had a few drinks and uh and that sort of
thing um obviously there was no appreciation
at that time for some of the some of the effects
of trauma, especially some of the things that
I can only imagine that he's seen. My uncle has
told me a couple of things. Obviously, being
as a combat engineer or a sapper in World War
II, not only were you on the front lines, and
sometimes you were ahead of the front lines,
you know, blowing up bridges or building bridges
or doing those sorts of things. So, you know,
I just know from some of the stories, a couple
of stories I've heard that... And he was certainly
there and did it and had the T -shirt. And certainly
being a police officer now and being diagnosed
with complex PTSD myself, I can appreciate somewhat.
I could never put myself in the position and
the experiences that he had, but I can appreciate
somewhat why he would be reluctant and others
would be reluctant to talk about these things
because it's extremely triggering and certainly
can cause. And yeah, it's incredibly difficult
to talk about. You kind of alluded to the impact
of early life on later life. One of the things
that I was educated on early in this podcast
was the impact of experiences as a child that
would then factor in our career. So if they were
unaddressed trauma, for example, and it was pushed
down, it would be a compounding effect for all
the other things that we see and do. When you
reflect back now with this, different lens that
we have in 2025 and we're talking about mental
health what were if any elements that contributed
to your struggles later you know these are conversations
that i've often had and obviously in 2020 you
know i've been to uh well i was president and
chief executive officer of the ontario provincial
police association there's a title uh i ended
up being in residential treatment twice at a
place called project trauma support and you know
it's not lost on me that Some people have been
through quite a bit of childhood trauma, and
certainly it presents itself throughout their
lives in many different ways, whether it's addictions
or certain behaviors or whatever. I look back
and I think... It wasn't so much my childhood,
my youth. You know, like I said, we didn't have
a whole lot. But, you know, a lot of my friends
didn't have a whole lot either. You know, this
isn't, you know, we never, we were fortunate.
There was a few things that we didn't do or participate
in. But for the most part, you know, I was very
blessed. You know, I didn't have some of the
trauma that some people I know and love and respect
did and some of the people that I've met along
the way as a police officer. You know, when I
was a detective in major crime, you know, I would
investigate. you know, sexual offenses against
children, for example. And, you know, I saw firsthand
what some of that trauma did to young people.
And it's always what sort of fueled me with regards
to those investigations. And, you know, certainly,
so I feel blessed in the one way, but where I
find some of the trauma. that I experienced more
so in my teens, external to my family, was deeply
impactful. And one of the exercises I did when
I went through counseling, and I've never talked
about this, and I'm pretty much an open book,
is an exercise where they said, go back to this
point in your life in your mind. And let's examine
this time in history. And I'm sure you've probably
seen these exercises before. I found that I went
back to when I was 17. I went back into even
a little bit before that. And I found that to
be an incredibly powerful experience to go back
as Rob Jamison now, what I know now, and before
I was a police officer. and talk about that period
in your life here, here, and here. And I found
that was probably something that impacted me
more greatly than anything that ever happened
when I was a youth. So I was fortunate that way.
Yeah, James. See, it's such an interesting conversation
because there are two sides to it. If we have
struggles and they are not addressed, it can
be a detriment. It can be a fracture to our foundation.
If we have struggles and we address it, I truly
believe it can be a strength. It can be true
resilience that we talk about. It creates strength.
It creates empathy, all these areas. And so having
the conversation at the front door in the first
responder professions, the same way as you would
with PT, say if you're here now, if you've put
your hand up and said, I will serve when so many
didn't, there's a good chance that there are
some things that happened prior to this that
have created this path for you. So we're going
to start talking about it from day one. And we're
going to get you to realize that if we talk about
it and we work through it, this will be an asset
the same way as your marksmanship and your fitness
and all these other things will be an asset.
But if we just do the box checking psych test
once and then basically say, OK, well, they're
not a lunatic. We're good. Then we're completely
missing this conversation at the front door to
really hit mental health from day one. I think
that's a really good point. And I and in 2019,
so. um we haven't quite got to it yet but in
2015 I was 10 years ago this is like my second
day on the job as president and CEO of the largest
police union in Canada and I sort of got there
through an absolute upheaval of the association
in 2015 and a lot of it is searchable online
you know the national police force executed a
search warrant in march the 6th 2015 and uh there
were some vacancies shall we say for presidents
and vice presidents and the cao of our corporation
and i ran and i was a platoon sergeant in the
academy running leadership coaching and running
all the sexual sexual assault domestic violence
courses and then recruit instructor but then
I went back on their own as a team leader and
got into this position of president and it was
interesting getting in at that time just what
you're talking about with regards to stigma some
of what you're talking about as well as stigma
and sort of fast forward the program that I designed
with our team and led the implementation of what
you're seeing now with recruits that are coming
on is they're immediately getting a baseline
many of them now And so the stigma has reduced
in such a way and supports have increased in
such a way. So in 2019, with our team, I negotiated
unlimited psychological supports for our members
and their families. And it has just been a massive
run on this. We had caps before, sort of $1 ,500
a year, $3 ,500 a year. When I first got in,
it was $1 ,500, $50 a half hour. The average
session is $200 an hour, Canadian. And so we
were upside down $100 each time. So would you
have utilized those supports? Then we changed
to $3 ,500 and $75 a half hour. And then we just
blew the doors off after 2018, after experiencing
three suicides within three weeks of OPP officers.
We went into 2019 and we just blew the doors
off. But as a result of that, and speaking about
mental health and suicide and trauma and all
these things, and as the president, of the union
um i had a i had a platform for which i could
discuss some of these things discuss stigma and
get it out there and start talking somewhat personally
and professionally but one of the great things
now like i was saying though and to tie in with
what you're saying is um We have so many people
now that are reaching out, and it is so great
to see. I give them so much credit, and much
of what we have today has been inspired by the
widows, by their families, by our members, and
then the courage of those that make the call
to our mental health program to take advantage
of those services, which they rightly deserve.
Absolutely. Well, I'm going to want to walk through
back to that point, but let's go back to early
life. What were you playing and doing as far
as sports and exercise back then? What, like
in high school type thing? Yes, school age. Yeah,
so I grew up playing hockey, which probably doesn't
strike you as strange, I guess. And I also refereed
hockey. I refereed a lot of hockey. And I was
always at the rink. I'd work at the rink. So
those sorts of things. My brother was an all
-around athlete. Played hockey and did the best
I could and had this really strong friend group.
So there's always doing something. There's always
sort of team sports the whole way through. Obviously,
I think in life, maybe you appreciate those sorts
of things more. The older you get and you reflect
and you go, yeah, that certainly did have a huge
impact. Certainly some of my friends, myself,
it gave us structure, opportunity, physical education,
positive mental health, camaraderie. One of the
reasons why I decided I wanted to become a police
officer is I was starting to referee hockey at
a higher level. And I enjoyed being able to participate
in sport. But at the same time, I enjoyed the
refereeing or the officiating aspect of things.
And it was sort of a natural kind of bridge to
then becoming a police officer. Well, speaking
of becoming a police officer, when you were in
the school age, was that what you were already
thinking of? Or was this another career in mind
at the time? I wanted to be a conservation officer.
So I had worked for our Ministry of Natural Resources.
So I, it just, at the time it was, it wasn't
a, it was tough to get in there and basically
being a game warden and being out, I loved outdoors.
I went to university for outdoors. I was a cottager.
I loved to fish. I never was into hunting. I
never grew up with that, but I certainly, I'm
around a lot of family and friends that do and
totally respect that. So that's what I wanted
to do. But changing into a career direction a
little bit, I found being sort of a rural police
officer, small town police officer, highways,
rural, that sort of thing, I still was around
many of the same things and worked alongside
some of the conservation officers over the years.
So it was still a really, really good fit. So
walk me through the kind of front door for law
enforcement for you then. Well, I went to university.
I got involved in years three and four. And my
roommate, who was a Paralympian, had cerebral
palsy. And he was a Paralympian for Canada and
really was one of the inspirations of my life,
being his caregiver. He's a solid dude and just
a really good guy, really life -changing. And
I got into student politics. I was the president
of my student union while I was at university.
And at that time, we were the last university
in the province. You know, my brain's going back
a few years here. They didn't have a health plan
for its students. We were the only ones. And
I said, you know, that's something we need to
remedy. So we worked together and we brought
it in for 93, 94. And we then became, and to
this day, that program is still there. It's flourished.
You know, I brought in a food bank as well that
year, which at the time, a lot of people were.
You know, why do you need this and this and this
and this? And I think that's really what leadership
is. I think leadership is looking at opportunities
where there are gaps. I don't like to do things
a mile wide and an inch deep. I like to do things,
I like to look at it. It's one of my strengths
is I can see something for what it is, see the
gaps, see where the rubber meets the road. How
does that affect the people? And we push through
in the food bank today, this food resource center
that has grown into today at Lakehead University
is phenomenal. So I think what you do today,
one of the indigenous teachings that I was taught
as well was what you do today affects the next
seven generations. And I truly believe that.
I truly believe that. It's like skipping a stone.
And so, you know, for me, leadership's always
about that. It's always about servant leadership.
And it's always about stepping up and providing
for others. And that's honestly what fuels me.
I love doing that. It's the only reason I do
any of these leadership capacity positions that
I take on. It's the only reason I do it. I just
love doing it. So as far as the journey into
law enforcement, what were the conversations
as far as mental health when you first entered?
And then any other areas that, you know, would
be startling now listening? I think most of it
would be startling now. It's startling to me
when I reflect, you know, and especially retiring
and having my retirement bash, you know, just
in September and seeing some of the photos up
there and stuff. It's unbelievable how far we
come in such a short period of time. There were
virtually no supports for us in 1995. And it's
certainly not to say that there were not good
people, but there's also an expression that some
people agree with, hurt people hurt people. And
a lot of the times it's this lack of, like, you
know, 10 years ago, even when I became president,
there was a real lack of... awareness or acknowledgement.
This has really been a sort of a sliding scale,
a crescendo that's continuing to happen where,
you know, more knowledge, more support, less
stigma, less judgment is sort of where we're
going in some areas. And in other areas, it's
actually quite regressive. And then you start
talking about different things about, so when
you reflect in 1995 to your question, You know,
just the way in which, you know, I went to university.
I have a degree from Lakehead University, which
is one of the smallest universities in the country.
It's in outdoor recreation and geography. So,
you know, when I went to school, I was heated
up by my roommate. It was an engineer and my
other one was a physical education and everyone
else and stuff. But what that program taught
me was leadership. And but one of the things
that you did not do when you went to detachment
in 1995. Because your senior guys and guys, because
women didn't come on the OPP until 1974. So these
guys were from the 60s. So the last thing they
want to hear from you is that you went to university.
OK, that's that is just not something that you
talk about. And so those sorts of things, when
you flip the script today and you look at today,
people are talking about, yeah, I have my master's
in this and this and this and this. And they
can say those things and they can talk about
the value behind those things. You know, I'm
not one that also is, I'm not a credentialist
to the point where certain credentials are critical
and that sort of thing. But when I was a recruit
instructor in 2013 to 15, at that time, we had
several members coming out of our Canadian Armed
Forces that had been in Afghanistan. And they
came on the Ontario Provincial Police. And I
had the honour and the privilege of being there
for some of them, their cadre, their recruit
instructor, their sergeant. many of those men
and women that had joined the ranks at that time,
some went to college, some went straight out
of high school into Afghanistan and the Canadian
Armed Forces. And I'll tell you, and I quote
my friend, Eva Olson, who's 101, who's a Holocaust
survivor, World War II. And she talks about not
having education throughout her life, but she
goes, I have a PhD in life. And I think many
of these Canadian Armed Forces, God love them,
past, present and future, have a PhD in life
and I would take them hands down. So I tend not
to be, I tend to look at the person, what their
experiences are and credentials. And that was
lacking when you came on to some degree in 1995
with some of the people and certainly no mental
health supports. I remember, and I tend not to
do. uh, trauma dumps. When I talk, I tend to
talk in generalities, uh, because I never want
to, um, you never know what people's triggers
are. So, and sometimes when you, you, you describe
things, maybe a little bit more specificity than
is required. So October 13th, I remember where
I was and a young girl, um, was on the highway.
I was, uh, was involved with an accident. She
died in front of me. And I remember that night
going home and I had just moved to London and
I was, I was on the couch. I was living in one
of the detective's houses and I was by myself
and I was curled up in the fetal position and
watching the event on the news. And I just remember
I was a mess and there was, there was nothing.
And, and, you know, it was just the worst thing
in the world to go through. And it took me years.
to come to terms with the fact that that happened.
It wasn't, and it took me a while too to realize
that it was also not my fault. I had nothing
to do with the situation, but I was there. And
just by the mere fact that I was there, yeah,
there was absolutely nothing. There was nothing
for folks like us when we came on. Now, if that
same thing happened today, there's much more.
awareness, support, not to say that people always
get it right, but certainly debriefings and critical
resources that are available, plus all the supports
that we have fought for in the association. So
I mentioned that we negotiated unlimited psychological
supports in 2019. We also negotiated unlimited
workplace insurance. supports as well. So when
you were diagnosed with PTSD, it used to be a
two -year window. We blew the doors off in 2019
of that as well. And it's unlimited now. So there's,
you don't have to, when you start looking at
trauma and you start looking at PTSD and PTSI
and OSI, TBI, whatever you want to call it, when
you start putting timelines on the recovery of
those injuries, it just doesn't work that way.
It just doesn't. So anyways. I could go on and
I certainly don't want to run on at this, but
yeah, that's kind of where we were at in 95.
And it's taken years and years and years of,
you know, really in the last 10 years, some serious
rolling up the sleeves and saying we need to
do better. And we were in a position, I was in
a position as president to... to do something
really special that has just gone viral and thousands
of people now have used this program and like
i said it's one of the most integrated and comprehensive
mental health programs uh i have seen and i know
that's a bold statement but i hope by today and
talking with you other people who may be experiencing
these sorts of things in their workplaces or
their whether it's suicide or trauma or mental
health or whatever some of those folks might
be leaning into this saying, well, how did, how
did they do this? How did he do this? So hopefully
it helps. That's the idea. When you said her
people, her people, which obviously that's, that's
a phrase used a lot now and, and beautifully
in the opposite of that is heal people, heal
people. And I agree with that completely, but
that old salty generation. You know, that was
the problem is I think that they were hurting
themselves. You know, like you mentioned, a lot
of a lot of our predecessors were Vietnam era,
for example. So if they had served, they're bringing
all that back now, then they're going to become
a cop or a firefighter. And it's it's left unaddressed.
Then you have the pendulum swing all the way
the other way where you've got paper tigers in
these positions now and all they want is degrees.
And I think that, you know, where we need to
be is in the middle. Just like you said, of course,
you know. Promoting education is an absolute
must. Now, it would be great to have degrees
that really added value to our professions rather
than business administration or whatever. The
thing is, it's a vague, vague relationship at
best, but also really valuing that hands -on
experience, that leadership, that ability to
work in a team, the problem solving, all these
actual... attributes that we need rather than
just saying either A, like you said, you need
to be a salty World War II veteran, or you need
to have a master's degree to be a leader. And
I think that middle ground hopefully is where
the pendulum will rest. Yeah, I think that's
a point really well taken. And I think that's
where, when you look at where we are at today
and how far we have come, and I'm specifically
talking about our organization, we have the commissioner
of our When Commissioner Thomas Carrick, who's
the president of the Canadian Association of
Chiefs of Police, he's the top cop in the country,
he became our commissioner in 2019. And I found
that, and I've been very public about that, coming
in 10 years ago, part of the problem too, and
there are some that may not like what I say right
now, and there's some that have not liked what
I say in the past, but it's okay. I came from
the outside after the scandal in 2015. I never
really talked about this stuff before because...
I had my head down trying to lead us out of the
depths of the organization that we were in. When
I started 10 years ago, negotiations had been
broken down. Benefits had been broken down. We
had no relationship with our commissioner and
senior leaders, none. We had no relationships
with our premier, which is like your governor,
and senior leaders and bureaucrats in the government
at the time, none. Our membership had zero trust
in their association and rightly so. So walking
in, we had no strategic plan for the last, I
walk in on day one, I said, I said to Leanna,
who's the executive assistant to the board and
the president, who's an awesome human being.
I said, do you have your strategic plan? I can't
find it on the website. And it's like, now just
imagine, this is the largest police union in
the country, right? With tens of millions of
dollars in assets, 6 ,000 uniform members, 4
,000 civilian members of law enforcement, 5 ,000
retirees, 1 ,000 surviving family members. And
the most recent strategic plan we had was from
eight years prior. Eight years. Where's your
roadmap? What are you doing? So for me, coming
into an organization, it had some really, really
amazing people in the organization. We just had
to put it all together and to lead it. And where
we are today is night and day. But having said
that, it was a hell of an undertaking and being
elected twice. And then with five years, I would
have loved to have continued on in the position.
But, you know, it had to it had to go to somebody
else. So, yeah, no, it's it's just. You know,
to kind of get back to your question there, finding
that middle is, I think, and I was talking about
how the commissioner had come in, sorry, I don't
mean to digress, is he had the mindset at the
time. He was the type, we had gone through five
commissioners in six to seven months from the
time of the summer of 2018 in August slash September.
When I was president, three members of the Ontario
Provincial Police died by suicide. We went through
five commissioners from that time until April.
OK, so you can imagine that's taken the last
three years to get our association sort of up
and running and leading and bringing depth and
services. And we still had a lot more work to
do because the association was in such a tough
spot at the time. And our primary goal and role.
is to provide support, leadership, and services
to the people that we represent. So how do you
do that? And the other thing I said is there
was a ton of conflict. We had over a hundred
grievances when traditionally we would have a
handful. So there was all kinds of internal conflict
and it just tore me up because I'm like, this
is not what we should be doing. So I brought
this different approach where I want to work,
not like this, not like this. I want the union.
I want the people running the organization. We
need to have these relationships because at the
end of the day, we both have the privilege to
serve the same people and we have to get it right.
Because when we don't get it right and if we're
not talking to each other, I would rather be
on the inside of the boardroom than be on the
outside of the boardroom looking in. And I asked
our people, I said, listen, I came in from the
outside. There was a lot of people there that
have been in the association for a long period
of time. I said, trust me on this approach. And
that's where we went. And it took a lot of work
to sort of change the way in which we act, reason,
and conclude. And we too have to come to the
table. We too have to be accountable. And that's
what we did. And you should see where we are
today. We've come light years and we have incredible
supports and services. But finding that middle
ground, a lot of that was done through hard work
with our organization. But it was also done through
the leadership of the commissioner that finally
came in April of 2019 by the name of Thomas Carrick.
And his focus was primarily the mental health
and well -being of our people. And I felt, thank
God I have somebody that I have a dance partner
because I need one. You're talking about a mental
health crisis in the worst time in the worst
history of the Ontario Provincial Police, which
goes, which was well in excess of 100 years,
you know, and so it needed to be addressed. It
was a very scary time. It was a lonely time.
And I just remember hearing about the third officer
that died by suicide. I was in Ottawa at the
time with my vice president. And I had to, I
then went back to the hotel. I said to the guys
on the board. Someone has to speak. I don't mind
if I want to do it. And I penned a letter, which
is in the book that I wrote. And it went out
to all the members. I was doing media and we
were starting to talk about the stigma associated
with it and, you know, mental health and suicide
and everything else. And it just started this
huge wave. And it ended with a promise that we
would deliver and do more for the people that
deserve it. And that's where the Encompass Mental
Health Program began. And without going into
all that, I guess I would just leave that with
you. And obviously, I know you want to explore
it some more, but that's kind of where that whole
concept came from. And there's a lot of people
who deserve a lot of credit for providing me
the inspiration to come up with some of these
ideas. I had an interview that I'm actually putting
out today as we're recording this with Doug Orchard.
And he is a documentary filmmaker, done some
incredible films. And his latest one is on private
equity firms, basically dipping into government
pensions. So, you know, state, city, county,
federal, and using that money to do all kinds
of things to make themselves more money and at
the same time charging fees and so reducing these
pensions. And what he said is there are unions.
that are taking money from lobbyists to allow
them to do this. And you use the word trust.
At the moment, one of the things that really
angers me is we have a national union here, IAFF,
and there's a new administration now, but they've
been in for, I think, three, four years now.
The current one... works in a city that works
24 72 so 42 hour work week and there has been
zero conversation about why doesn't the rest
of the country work the same thing so you're
hearing all these you know stories about the
human beings that are in this position i want
to be very clear i believe 100 in the union philosophy
i paid my jews the whole time i was wearing a
uniform but As you seem to get higher up, it
becomes politics and you seem to lose the very
mission that you're supposed to be there for,
which is the benefit of the people. So with that
all being said, obviously, that's my experience
of the fireside and this pension thing that I'm
just about to release. When you reflect back
now, what was that downward spiral of the previous
union that you had that literally resulted in
criminal arrests? cautionary tale, what would
you tell people to make sure that didn't happen?
Were there any red flags as they were not acting
ethically, even though they were representing,
as you said, thousands and thousands of people?
Well, that's quite a question. And I think it's
very, I think your question is spot on. I'm always
cautious, especially when I became president.
There was a lot of different investigations.
It was obviously internal investigations to look
at process, policies, procedures. There was a
criminal investigation by the National Police
Force, the RCMP, who actually unionized after
us. We supported them in that. And so they then
took the mantle of the largest in the country.
I've always I've always steered away from from
some of that stuff only because when I talk about
what it is that I inherited, I say this is what
this is how I led. And I talk about that in the
book as well. So I'll give you an example. So
on day one, I arrive and it's your typical president's
office. It's it's your it's the biggest office.
It's got the nicest views. It's got you know,
you go in and there's tables and, you know, all
that sort of stuff. And and. and for me i don't
really care about stuff like that and i really
think the biggest thing where people can learn
is if you're the power of the board of directors
so the so the president is uh in a not -for -profit
corporation the president is the spokesperson
for the board of directors so the board always
has it within their power to come together and
have those conversations about the direction
and things that are happening. And so where I
come from, on day one, which was yesterday, 10
years ago, I walk into the office. I hadn't been
in the office in, oh, maybe 12 years or so. I
was a complete outsider. So for me to come into
an organization, and I kind of alluded to it
earlier, is that for me, it's never about blame.
I'm not one of those guys that I think we could
run around and blame all kinds of people for
all kinds of things. For me, it's about, OK,
now we have to prioritize these things that have
been made aware that have been brought to my
attention. We're going to get to them. There's
deficits and we're going to fix those things.
Just imagine walking in on day one and I come
into my office. Leanna's showing me around and
my desk is just full of gifts. There's maple
syrup wrapped in birch bark. There's Mont Blanc
pens. There's tickets to the Jays games. There's
all this stuff. And I said, what is all this
stuff? Well, that's all the stuff that's come
in for you. And I said, well, I said, that's
not happening. So we ended up getting rid of
that stuff and sending a message that that type
of culture. So I would say this. I would say,
if you truly are there for the people and you're
a servant leader, It's not about that shit. It's
about being entrusted, being put in by people
who are relying on you to provide support, leadership,
and services at people's most dire times. And
it's not about you. And so when I get in there,
I clean that off. Then it became, okay, now we
have to pick which vehicle we're going to drive.
Okay, well, I don't need anything fancy, right?
Give me something that's... I ended up driving
a Jeep Cherokee, which is a nice enough vehicle,
but it wasn't the excesses of driving like an
Escalade or something like that. I don't want
any of that stuff. So I really think it starts
with everything that you do from the top. How
do you emulate that stuff? How do you hold yourself
accountable? How do you... Never forget from
where it is that you've come from. And I credit
my parents. I credit my Indigenous teachings.
I credit growing up in a small town. I credit
the oath that I took when I became a police officer.
And I've never forgot it. And it took a lot sometimes
to change some of that culture. And these are
things I've never talked about before. And these
are things that I had to bury deep inside me
that, quite frankly, pissed me off. But they
also fueled me because I knew that the membership...
and I'm talking in generalities, were screaming
and crying out for ethical leadership. And it
took time. And it took a lot of people that would
write in and say, I think this is the worst place.
I think you're all this. I think you're all that.
The typical types of things that you would expect
that probably would come in. And in some ways,
you know, I kept saying to people, just give
us a chance. Just let us work through this. Let
us get through this. And we had to start prioritizing
all the things. One of the first things we did.
to kind of tie in with things. And I know your
question, it's more so how we moved forward and
why we're successful. And this is my leadership
style is, you know, I went down to Dallas to
pay respects to the five officers that were murdered
down there. And I flew down with my vice president
and I wore a suit. And we were in a church, one
of the churches there. It was hot. I remember
it was 100 degrees. And we were in Dallas. And
I thought to myself, it always bothered me. So
some of the things that when you have a platform,
when you do things for the good, I used to always
see our association wearing suits to funerals
and memorials and stuff like that because they
were separate. They were union. And I never agreed
with that. I just don't. And I have friends of
mine who were presidents of other police unions
that wear suits at these events. And I love and
respect them, but we respectfully disagree on
this issue. And I said to our board at the time,
I had to go to a funeral, an RCMP officer out
West. And I was in a suit because you're not
allowed to march with those that are in uniform.
And I was at the ass end of the line. And I remember
I could hardly see the police officers at the
front. And it was the worst feeling in the world.
And we had OPP officers that were there wearing
their number ones. And I just, I went back to
the board and I said, I didn't want to go in
a suit to begin with. And so there was this reluctance
a little bit because of the past not to let the
current president lead. Okay. And it got to a
point where I said, we have a National Peace
and Police Officer Memorial in Ottawa every year,
every September. I said, I am going to that.
in my number one dress. And it's the way we are
going to pay our respects to the survivors of
law enforcement. And we want to represent, and
on that day, we are police officers. And I was
met with some pretty interesting conversations.
And I remember saying to the one guy, and I said,
I'm going in my number one dress. And he looks
at me and he says, well, how are we going to
look? I said, underdressed. It was amazing. The
whole board came together. We wore our number
one dress, except for our civilian member of
law enforcement, who actually is the president
right now. And he was fully supportive. And so
I guess what I'm getting at is, is that you can
look at some of the lessons, not only in the
OPP Association, but elsewhere, never forgetting
the people that put you in these positions. And
quite frankly, using that platform especially
me who was on the road as a supervisor who was
you know getting in shit from a command member
the month before that because me and my platoon
didn't have our hats on at some point and next
thing you know I'm flying around the province
with the commissioner that's very same person
and other executive members and you know she
was nice as could be to me and it just kind of
touches on sanctuary trauma a little bit but
it But it's a reminder that just stay true to
who you are, who put you there and continue to
fight and fill those gaps of leadership. Because
at the end of the day, your job is to provide
support, leadership and services and respect,
especially to those people who have paid the
ultimate sacrifice. You mentioned about having
to rebuild relationships. Obviously, they were
looking for commissioners. You had that revolving
door at that one point. Where I've seen incredible
progress in physical and mental health within
fire departments is when that communication has
been forged. So Pasco County, Plano, Texas, some
good examples. Talk to me about how you were
able to rebuild not only the trust within your
own union, but also the interactions with all
these other politicians and entities that you
had to have a good relationship with so that
you could actually move these conversations forward.
It's a really good question. So in 2012 to 2014,
I was the president of the Alumni Association
for Lakehead University. So representing about
60 ,000 people. So I've always been around politics.
I follow it. I follow American politics. I follow
Canadian politics. I'll bounce around all different
channels to try to find the truth. And it's just
something that I always enjoy. And it's always
something that I've, you know, there's things,
there's always areas of opportunity, but I've
always been really, really good at engaging with
stakeholders that's that's my strength so getting
and understanding the value of having those relationships
number one and who in fact you need to have those
relationships with and also prioritizing and
understanding what it is that you need to accomplish
and how you can leverage those relationships
with those specific people to get to where you
need to go so when we when i first was elected
we the liberals were in power and policing was
not a priority for the government at the time.
Although the minister of labor, Kevin Flynn,
he was pro presumptive legislation. He was actually
really, really quite good. And I very much enjoyed
his support and working with him and all the
other people. But, but as far as policing, that
was at the time when, you know, there was a lot
of. You know, there's a lot of activism in the
United States, in Canada, and much of what happens
in the United States comes across the border.
Much of what we are exposed to here is American
news and issues. So whatever's happening in the
United States, we're not numb to it here. We
see it. It happens. So policing was very much
in the crosshairs of much criticism. Much of
the way that we interacted with the public was
under scrutiny. And it was very much an activist
government. So we tried to carve out the best
relationship that we could with someone that
we knew, quite frankly, outside of the mental
health and well -being of our people with presumptive
legislation, whether it was intelligence -led
policing and street checks and all these sorts
of things. We knew that. So it was very frustrating.
So we did the best we could. The premier now,
who's been the premier since he came in in 2018,
Doug Ford, they came in with a much different
approach to policing where not only was the law
enforcement profession much more respected, so
philosophically, it became much easier. So just
strengthening those relationships, creating and
strengthening those relationships, taking your
priorities. And then with the internal side of
the house, the question that you asked is. I
remember coming in 10 years ago and things were
so bad that, you know, it was quite frosty. And
I think that the current commissioner of the
day would agree. And I actually appreciate why
he would feel the way that he felt, quite honestly.
And so we had to really work at things and talk
about some of the things. So I'll give you an
example. So the hearing decisions. So, for example,
under the Police Services Act, the former Police
Services Act, and I'll try to be as succinct
as possible for you as I can with this because
I could talk forever about it. But when an officer
gets in trouble under the Police Services Act
from internal affairs and a charge is laid and
they're held accountable, if they decide to fight
that charge, it goes before a hearing officer.
That hearing officer is someone who is appointed
by a police service, usually retired, as an adjudicator.
And it's, you know, it's just like a court trial.
But it's a hearing decision, basically on labor
law. You come in. The OPP's position on that
has always been, whatever happens, that hearing
disposition gets posted on the intranet. So all
10 ,000 members of the Ontario Provincial Police
on a two in the morning, wherever they are in
the province, can go on there and read about
Rob Jamison and da -da -da -da -da -da and all
the other people associated with stuff. And it
stayed on there for 10 years. 10 years. Some
services put theirs on the internet so you can
go on there and millions of people can go and
look at it and it's there in perpetuity. I have
a huge issue with that. I don't think we start
talking about shaming people. Shame is one of
the critical pieces and judgment is one of the
critical pieces when you start looking at declining
mental health and well -being of our people.
And so just imagine. Where I'm tying it into
the first commissioner, I said to him, I said,
we need a few wins. Throw me something. What
are we doing here? Let's have this conversation.
So he agreed at the time to take that 10 years
and move it down to five years. So all those
people that were from five to 10 years were now
gone. 99 % of the people that are on those hearing
decisions still remain as our employees. It's
not like you're firing all those people. So these
are people that are still within your employ
for the next five, 10, 15, 20, 25 years. So it's
in your best interest, you know. And I would
always come back to this. It's a philosophy.
I don't have a problem holding myself accountable
or someone holding me accountable if that's the
case. But it's in the how we do it. And I fundamentally
disagree with this. And there's the odd person
that, you know, there's a retired adjudicator
that was, I ran into him in the grocery store
recently. Good guy. And he vehemently disagrees
with the fact that I reduced all that stuff.
And I said to him, I said, just imagine your
house, James. You have a house, and here's the
street, and here's the sidewalk, and there's
the walkway to your house. And your husband,
wife, and you have two children, and they're
young. And your youngest child, who's nine years
of age, does something really bad. You take out
a two -sided sign. You pound it in, just like
an election sign, on your lawn. On the one side,
it says, this is what Rob did. On the other side,
the exact same thing. So every day. That that
child has to go to school. He has to go by that
sign and see exactly what he did a year ago,
five years ago, nine years ago. Everybody that
walks up to that house sees that sign on the
way in and on the way out. Everybody that walks
by that sidewalk sees what that says from five
years ago, 10 years ago. Everyone that drives
by gets to see this thing. So you start asking
yourself, you start asking yourself. How do we
move forward as an organization with the health
and well -being of our people when we are shaming
people? So it's interesting. When I was in charge
of negotiations in 2019, we had a really good
relationship and kind of ties in with we had
we had everything. Everything's been firing on
all cylinders for a while now because we managed
to I get that stuff and our team gets that stuff
and they appreciate it. And we went into negotiations
for the first time with the new government and
they said, OK, we're ready to go. And I said,
well, I'm not. And they're like, well, what's
wrong? And I said, I thought we were good. I
said, we are good. I have nothing but respect
for you guys. Love you guys. And the same for
us. But I need something from you. There's no
sense being friends unless we can give each other
something, right? I said, I'm not prepared to
negotiate with you until you do what? I said,
get rid of those names and those hearing decisions.
Just get rid of them. Anonymize it. Tell the
story. without having to shame the individual.
So people can go on there and have a look at
the behavior and say, if I do this, this is the
result. And they said, you want that? I said,
you give me that. We can then start having negotiations.
They went off, they came back. I forget it was
an hour later. You got it. This is something
that the union had fought for, for, I don't know.
10, 15, 20 years with no success. So it's that
whole philosophical change of working with the
stakeholders. It's that whole philosophical change
of having those relationships with the people
who have the power and authority and responsibility,
which ones, and then prioritizing and keeping
in your mind. And with a valid strategic plan,
which then we brought in from 2017 to 2022, we
fixed that one as well. And we were off to the
races. So it's multifaceted. And it's really
knowing who's who and it's really knowing what
it is that your membership needs and why they
put you there. You mentioned about your kind
of mental health downward spiral at 2020. When
you reflect back now, what was some of the calls,
warning signs, events prior to that? And then
let's talk about that first time that you put
your hand up and truly ask for help. That's a
great question. It's one that I'm... It's one
that I'm very comfortable in speaking about now.
I certainly talk about it in my book. When I
first got on the job, when I started on the job.
I worked in an area where there was outlaw motorcycle
gang clubhouse. And a lot of what I did in frontline
duties was associated with, I loved engaging
with outlaw motorcycle gangs and associates and
all that stuff. I love tracking their movements,
intelligence, all that stuff. And they changed
and I was dealing with some, some pretty bad
dudes at, you know, and I really enjoyed that
type of police work. But, you know, when you
do that sort of stuff, it does come with a cost.
And I'll just kind of keep it generic there and
put it this way. I survived. I then went into
as a platoon sergeant. Best job I've ever had
in the OPP as a player coach and taking care
of my people. I love I miss them very much. But
they had a program where they they come around
and they say, hey, listen, we need a sergeant
from every detachment to go into internal affairs.
And they came to me. And they said, it's only
a three month gig. I said, I don't want this.
I do not want to go. I actually don't think I'm
the type of guy that you want in there to begin
with. And so, but I had been in crime and I'd
done major investigations and stuff. So they
were hitting up people and no one else wanted
it. And then they came around again and they
said, listen, we want you to do this. Will you
go? Because you have to kind of be willing to
go into something like that. So I went and I
talked to a lot of my buddies, my hard -hitting,
hardcore dudes, awesome guys, and kind of got
the green light and said, you know what, you
can make a difference in there. So I did. And
so I went in and I saw immediately the impact
of these investigations, how brutal some of them
were onto the members and their families, by
extension. And it just... We had, while I was
in there, one of the members that was under investigation
by multiple people died by suicide. And that
rocked me. And it was that feeling once again
that I had dealt with that I talked about today,
which I've never talked about, was the young
girl being killed in my presence early on in
my career. And then you throw the biker stuff
in there, then you start throwing this in, and
this is in and around. 20 you know just after
2010 so so it's compiling and then so then I
became an academy instructor and then I felt
like there was at that time in 2013 I needed
to take a couple of months off and I just remember
I was at a conference and one of our four psychologists
was it was all internal affairs and he asked
a question to everybody he goes where do you
think PTSD exists within the the police forces
and they had representatives from all over the
province from internal affairs and i'm thinking
it actually it actually exists in internal affairs
like the ability to feel responsible for the
deaths of other people is how i was feeling at
that time and he starts throwing this stuff up
on the screen and this is in 2013 this is 12
years ago before a lot of this stuff was even
talked about and i just crumbled and i had to
left i left the room i took my gun off i handed
it to my buddy Not that I was going to do anything
to myself. I just knew that I was off work. I
said, take this thing. And I went off for a couple
of months. And at that time, there was no real
support. So it's a guy that I handed my gun to,
which is a solid dude. And because he was a solid
dude, he was the kind of guy that would reach
out. But the whole process kind of winded down.
You're off. The system keeps going. The phone
doesn't ring. I learned firsthand right then
and there. It was pretty humbling. to go through
something like that. It was pretty awful. I fought
my way back. I didn't want to be back in internal
affairs because I was still feeling responsible.
I went in, I started teaching the recruits and
I loved it because I just felt like I could give
back and it was an area that I loved doing, helping
others. Then I was elected, just before I was
elected president, and I was on scene of a collision
as a supervisor. Young woman was killed. We had
to make an arrest of her family member. And I
just remember it was cold and everyone else had
left notifications, all that stuff. And it was
just me and her at the side of the road. And
I just remember saying to myself, I'm done. This
was in 2015. And this was simultaneous to me
actually running for the position of president
and actually realizing at the same time that
I was elected. So where sort of this whole thing
has come from. 2018 imagine taking over this
organization with the magnitude the mental health
crisis losing people to suicide every year not
fully understanding even the supports and services
that we offered when I went in there because
I had been out of it for so long and realizing
once I got in that we as a team had a lot of
work to do and there were some people that were
pulling this way there's people pulling that
way and I was like, no, we need to move in the
forward direction. We need to do something significant.
And we kept, like I said, the first responder,
presumptive legislation, working with our partners,
moving forward, the increased psychological supports
for counseling. And then when we lost three OPP
members in the summer of 2018, I put that, I
listened to the widows who inspired me. I went
to the funeral of one of the members. And I just
remember, I just remember seeing all the disconnects
from spouses who wanted to get their husbands
the help that they needed, but they were struggling.
And that's when I came back and I wrote the membership,
the letter I was telling you about. And I was
just inundated and it started this national conversation
in many ways. and doing media and getting out
there and being scared shitless at the same time.
Because once you throw yourself out there, you
know, I started worrying about, you know, what
is this? What are people going to think of me
and my wife, my kids? What's the impact? Am I
going to piss off some of the widows who have
gone through the ultimate pain? And it was very
well received, actually, kind of coming out.
And like I said, I made the promise to them.
And that's when I went back to my office. I had
listened to the widows, their families. my friends,
myself, the association. I closed my door. I
went into my office with a blank piece of paper.
I pulled out a piece of paper and I said, if
money was not an option, what would the best
mental health program for first responders look
like? And I just sat down. It has to be 24, 24
hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a year. It
has to be bilingual. Many of our members that
we have. are French. They speak French as their
primary language. They need to be able to effectively
communicate their issues and concerns in the
language that they speak. It has to be culturally
relevant. They have to understand the culture
of the OPP and the OPP Association. They have
to understand the culture of people. So we need
a diverse group of clinicians who can connect,
whether they're racialized, whether they're white,
whether they're indigenous, whatever. When you
mix those things together, and then it has to
have residential treatment, and then it has to
have Then it has to have, once you come into
this program, we have to have constant touching
in with the individuals. So this program has
thousands and thousands of emails and phone calls
out to the people that are participating in this
program. So I designed it with our team over
the 18 month period, procured it, we implemented
it. And I said in the procurement process, I
want you to design this program in such a way
that you do the following. When somebody reaches
out to you, whether it's two in the afternoon
or two in the morning, I want you, trauma -informed
people on the other end of that phone who have
access to every resource known to man, wrap your
arms around that person and do not let them go.
I don't know how you write that in the RFP, but
it's got to be in there. So I stayed with it
the entire time. Meanwhile, I was getting, we
had more mental health crisis on the go over
the 18 -month period. I started to... become
physically and mentally exhausted. I continued
to feel responsible for the deaths of the people
that I was there to take care of. And in 2020,
after the program launched, March 30th of 2020,
at the beginning of the pandemic, which was ironic,
which was incredible because people needed these
things, I couldn't get into residential treatment.
I went into residential treatment in May for
the first time. And as president, very few people
knew. And then in November, I had to go in again.
And then while I was there, one of our members
was murdered, shot to death. And I checked myself
out because it wasn't in my DNA. And I went,
another member was hurt. So I had to go to the
hospital and see him. Didn't had to, I wanted
to. And November 30th, 2020, I was done. And
then I was officially diagnosed with complex
PTSD. I was out of the workplace for 10 months.
And here I went from being the president. to
out of the workplace and really, really, really,
really fighting the effects. And I'll tell you,
you know, one of the things that helped me through
it, of all things, obviously the support of my
wife, my children, my counselor, other people
who had the strength and courage to stand up.
It's going to, there's a show on TV. So I've
had, I've had two heart attacks. My first one
was in 2018 when I had the job. The other one
I had was 14 months ago. And, you know, before
I retired. And the first one I had in 2018, I
started watching a show called Seal Team. Have
you seen that show with David Boreanaz? I had
the guy that plays the dog handler on the show.
So I haven't actually seen an episode, but I'm
aware of it. Yeah, the dog handler. He's an actual
police officer in real life, I believe. That
gentleman. Yeah, he's kind of like a canine trainer.
Not actually a cop, but he helps train canines.
Yeah, it's... That show really, really resonated
with me, the way that they handled TBI and PTSD.
And so as it went through, it was almost a running
timeline to what I was experiencing. And I don't
mean to digress on this answer. I'm just saying
the way that they handled that at the end of
the show, and I don't want to ruin it for people
that haven't seen the show. So I don't want to,
and it's been out for a long time. So hopefully,
but just the way in which they were there for
their brother. And they stepped up and they weren't
afraid. Finally, they were like, we're standing
up and we're going to do the right thing because
it's the right thing to do. Be damned the consequences.
And I was in my basement watching this and I
was absolutely choked up. And I thought to myself,
yes, that's exactly what it takes. It takes a
village. And I've said this since day one. It's
the old expression, it takes a village to raise
a child. But I actually believe that it takes
a village your entire life. And when I saw that,
I thought it was Tyler Gray that brings that
and the other people that are in it that bring
that, just the way they did that. And I was like,
I bet you there's a lot of people out there that
are just like me, that that show spoke to them
in such a way that gave me such hope. And you
got Jason Boreanaz, Jason on the show at the
very end. You know, I hate talking about it because
in the sense that I don't like, you know, I don't
want people to, it's been out long enough, but
when he goes easy effing day at the very end,
you know, and I thought, right on, exactly. And
I managed to get myself back into the workplace.
I managed after 10 months to reintegrate. I managed
to get an amazing job where I work with so many
United States law enforcement agencies, the DEA,
ATF, FBI, Department of Justice, Homeland, out
of the Ottawa Embassy, Toronto Consulate, doing
really amazing work around. And working with
some really, really cool people and eventually
getting back into the police union. So with enough
support, compassion, understanding, no judgment,
and you can get there. And so I give a lot of
people a lot of credit and I respect their courage.
And, you know, I just, it's interesting shows.
Sometimes people even that do the shows probably
don't understand the magnitude of the impact.
Shows like that can have, but that show there
had a massive impact on me in a positive way.
Where was the lowest place you got in this whole
time? And then what was some of the tools in
that toolbox that helped you navigate out? I
think one of the lowest points was while I was
still president and I knew that this program
was going to make. massive difference and it
was the I don't want to say abuse but it was
the complaints and the criticisms from some and
the accusations that the association keeps talking
about this program they're going to bring in
and when you're talking about creating something
that's never been created before for thousands
of people, securing the funding. This stuff's
unprecedented. And I give credit to the people
that supported me while we did this. But it was
awful. I remember being in the boardroom and
people coming in and I would think, Jesus, please.
Please, you know, please, everybody stay alive
until like it was just an awful I was just in
a horrible place. And so I had to do this job.
I was declining. I think once I was able to once
we were able to so just to give you some context
on this program. Since its launch March 30th
of 2020, we've had up to 4 ,000 members in their
families utilize this program. We've had up to
400 critical crisis response calls. So those
are people that are calling up at any given time
of the day that are in absolute crisis. In the
past, we had a benefit section. We had some people
doing some good stuff. But because this was a
one -stop shop, 24 -7, 365, all that stuff. I
would hate to think where we are today, but some
of the worst times, but I made a promise to my
wife because when I was in residential treatment,
like I said, I was in there with some special
forces dudes, which are, they were incredible
military guys, police officers. One was a nurse,
you know, they're in the previous cohorts. There
would be some, some firefighters, just, you know,
the first responder community. But I. Some guys
were doing better. Some guys were doing worse,
you know, or worse off. For me, it was making
that promise from the beginning that to my wife
that I will survive. I will get through this.
And even though there were days when you're fighting
it, you get those setbacks. Some of the worst
times was while I was still in the role and just
praying to God that no one else would be hurt
or died. And once the program has taken off,
and it did take off, and it has been a massive
success. So I think those were some of the worst
times. The feeling responsible for the deaths
of other people, and then working through that
and understanding that, no, I'm not responsible
for the deaths of other people. Now, when my
head hits the pillow, I think to myself, we have
a program that's been in place for five years.
There is not one thing that is not offered through
that program. And our people have unprecedented
supports, not only our people, but their families.
And we see a huge uptake on their families, huge.
And they're critical components to this whole
thing as well. It's amazing how, as you've alluded
to before, how like. crushing organizational
betrayal or organizational stress can be. And
I've found this even, I mean, my last fire department
was very much that, that way, you know, and it
was just trying to highlight things that we needed
to address everything from firefighter fitness
to simply being able to wear your mask and ascend
gear with the way needed. I mean, pretty basic
operational elements, but now outside doing what
I'm doing and trying to push these healthy work
weeks, for example, and getting exactly what
you're told, what are you talking about? getting
people that you are advocating for pushing back
and saying oh no that doesn't work that's stupid
and it's like it's literally solving all the
things and it's going to get you home safely
and happy to your family more often why would
you why would you push back why would you draw
a breath to oppose the thing that we're trying
to address where does that come from where where
is that toxicity bred that would brainwash a
police officer or a firefighter to actually oppose
the very solution of the crisis that they're
facing? Isn't that a great question? It's one
that I've asked myself multiple times, but what
was great about it is, is while I was president,
you have that platform. So I really think it
comes down to leadership. You know, it's interesting.
Some people play three -dimensional, four -dimensional
chess, whatever they want to call it. did to
a certain degree but I was more concerned with
doing what was right and what was in the best
interest of our people not about what's in the
best interest so listen I'll just do this amount
so when I retire in June of 2025 I now can go
get a job somewhere else because I've managed
to keep these relationships that I didn't challenge
you know yeah and so for me I was very one -dimensional
that way I was very, for those five years, that's
my servant leadership. That is exactly the way
that I operated. And I'm okay with that. I can
look at myself in the mirror. I know, you know,
when I take my daughters out to the grocery store
and I run into somebody, you know, nine times
out of 10 or even higher, like I said, I'm great.
I don't care who I run into because that's always
been my focus. And you're absolutely right. And
I think I have a bit of a... philosophy and i
obviously it's a generalization but i think it
really goes back to you know people that want
to get into these professions you know i think
the biggest question you people get asked all
the time well why did you want to become a police
officer and you know the standard answer is always
you know i wanted to help people and i'm sure
that is very much true But to your point, you've
kind of alluded to something earlier about, you
know, things that happen within your younger
self can also be drivers, positive, negative,
otherwise, whatever. And I'm just sort of paraphrasing
and excuse me if I'm putting words in your mouth
because I don't mean to because it's actually
what I believe. When you break it down, some
of the people that I've seen in my career and
I've worked with, it's a lot of averages. We
have some amazing people that we all work with.
But some of the people I see that. that have
come on to law enforcement for example in particular
the one that i work with the opp um their approach
um who this inflexibility to be a decent human
being was lost upon them prior to applying to
get on the job in my opinion then when they get
on the job some of these people some of them
who may be narcissists which to me are some of
the most treacherous people going, will do anything
they can to take out anybody who they perceive
real or otherwise to be a threat. And I've gone
against those people, and I love that. It's actually
what fuels me. I love going against them. And
it's because that's why I wanted to become, and
many of the people that I know want to become
police officers, because you want to stand up
against the bully who's taking advantage of people
in society. Right. That's why you want to become
a cop. You want to advocate. You want to protect.
You want to serve. You want to do these things.
So you don't expect it. You don't see it coming
from the inside, especially before these conversations
were happening. So when you look back, a guy
like myself who just retired after 30 years,
you look back, OK, here's the first 10 years.
Here's the second. Here's the third. And you
see the evolution. We weren't talking about these
things. 30 years ago, 20 years ago, maybe some
people were, but generally no one was really
talking about this stuff. In the last 10 years,
yes, I'd say. In sanctuary trauma, which causes
moral injury and injury to the soul. But these
same people that get on, and I thought this way
years ago, and I look at them and I go, you're
now wanting to get promoted because now you realize
that self -worth that you are identifying with.
does not have the same residence within people
who have the exact same authority and responsibilities
that you do. I hope I'm making sense. You are.
And then so they get promoted for whatever reason.
And next thing you know, there's this. For every
one of those, I've worked for so many, just like
you have, incredible human beings, and I do not
want to come across as negative today, but I
do want to call stuff out and be factual and
say, so that person, one person, as they go up
that chain of command, what do they do? They
promote people that are subservient to them or
agree with them or won't rock that boat or won't
call them out for their... uh absurd offensive
abusive behavior and that's what i loved about
the police union because i my philosophy is that
i'll work with the commissioner and the deputies
and all the other people and and we can bring
them and we have really strong relationship and
i'm really proud of that approach but part of
that comes with conversations that say you know
and i know that this person here at this detachment
who's detachment commander or someone else, I'm
just using generic terms because most are amazing.
You know, and I know that they should never be
around other human beings. You know that. They
probably would be good. So when I was running
leadership coaching in the academy, it was for
staff surgeons who would get paired with inspectors
and superintendents and some of the people who
were extremely problematic at detachment levels
for whatever reason. Whether it was because they
were a narcissist, whether it be they're abusive,
whether they're power hungry or whether they're
just unable and unwilling to be a decent human
being. But if you gave them an administrative
assignment, what I saw is some of them were just
rocking those because that's actually where they
excelled. So what we need to do is we need to
get better at saying to people, we can send you
on all the leadership courses in the world. Some
people, and this is my own opinion, you could
send them on leadership coaching for the rest
of their career, and that guy's not changing.
The only thing at the end of the day, you can
give everybody the opportunities to do that.
You can mentor them. You can do all these things.
But at the end of the day, sometimes you have
to say for the sake of all the others, I think
this is probably a better opportunity for you.
You bring somebody in that's dynamic, that's
leadership, that cares for their people, that
treats their people with respect, that holds
them accountable. But in the how, it never takes
away someone's dignity. To me, it's not hard.
I don't know why these people struggle with this
stuff. I don't get it, but some do. And they
cause a lot of harm within the organizations
that we both have been part of, for sure. It
just is a realization for me the last probably
year, year and a half, where you and I and so
many other people have been talking about mental
health for a long time now. relatively compared
to most of the population. And when we talk about
it, we're like, well, it's the James, it's the
Robs, it's the people on the street, you know,
doing the job, wearing the uniform. And we forget
that that applies all the way to the top. And
a good example is like, if you are a head of
a tobacco company or Purdue Pharma or a weapons
manufacturer, and you sleep soundly at night,
knowing that you're profiting from things that
are killing Americans, Canadians, whoever it
is. you are a sociopath. You just are. There's
no justifying it at this kind of level. And it's
the same in police and fire and EMS. If you,
for example, locally are in charge of a fire
department that has had five suicides in as many
years and several more that were never revealed,
and then most recently now had a fire station
haze someone to the point where four firefighters
were arrested, and you just stand on a podium
and say, oh, it's all their fault, it's the same
exact thing. And this is where we have to have
a conversation is it is so dangerous to have
a narcissist or arguably a sociopath wearing
a union president suit, a fire chief's class
A, whatever it is, that are in charge of all
these people. And I think that going back to
the kind of initial conversation is this then
creates a culture. of hurt people hurt people
that then creates that stigma that has our police
officers and firefighters afraid to say that
they're struggling. And then we go and attend
yet another funeral with a flag -draped coffin
while the bagpipes play. So it is such an important
conversation. A hundred percent. And that's exactly
why, you know, with our commissioner that came
on in 2019, like his, you know, we were the first
police. the OPP, in Canada to actually have a
place of reflection, a suicide memorial place
of reflection at headquarters, which was, you
know, really progressive. I know Toronto has
since got one. And there's much more recognition,
but really, and rightly so. But really, these
are leadership issues. This is so fundamentally,
in my mind, Simple. It's how we treat other human
beings. And I just keep using. So I was the philosophy
that Commissioner Creek and myself as president,
we had was we were able to, I hope. And I think
if you chat with folks, create a culture where
it's much easier to come forward. The resources
are there. The the accountabilities have to be
there. So I think it's really important, too,
that when you have. So it was interesting. I've
never heard of anybody coming from internal affairs
to the head of the union. Like it just, it's
just not something that, that, that happens.
I didn't really see myself getting in. I didn't
want to go to internal affairs and I didn't see
myself ever becoming the president of the police
association, but for whatever reason, they both
did. And why I know some of the reasons why they
did for presidents, because I said, you know
what I can do better than that. And, and, and
we did. And, but it's. it really comes down to
leadership and it, and it really, whatever position
that you hold, I would even say, you don't necessarily
have to hold a position of authority and responsibility,
like a hierarchy, like a president. I think it
comes down to those senior people or any person
on a platoon there, you know, whether it's a
shift sergeant, whether it's the junior member,
whether it's everybody has something to contribute.
And I think everybody can be a leader for, for
the better from whatever position that they come
from. And, but ultimately. People have to be
setting that tone from the top. And you see today
examples all over the place where that isn't
the case. And I go to conferences where, you
know, up until the time I retired, I would go
to conferences and the room would be packed with
people and people would get to the microphone
and they start asking questions and I would just
sit there. And it just blows my mind the examples
that exist still. It blows my mind the... lack
of resources and support that exists. There's
no consistency for everybody. So not everybody
has unlimited psychological supports. Not everybody
has a factor 85 pension for their civilians.
Not everybody has unlimited WSIB benefits. Not
everybody has a concierge one -stop shop service.
Nobody has, very few people have that stuff.
So, you know, I think that's, once again, When
you take on these roles and when you achieve
these things, it shows others that it's possible.
It shows others when you speak with vulnerability
in a position of leadership that it's okay to
come forward. And I think it's okay when you're
in a position of authority and responsibility
like I was to call some of these bastards out.
And, you know, but once again, for me, it was
always in the how I did it. You know, and it's
really, so when you have relationships with all
these political leaders, like I do, all the bureaucrats,
the ones that you need to have relationships
with, the commissioner, the deputies and all
the other people, all the people across the province,
when you have a lot of relationships with those
people, when this person who may be in charge
of something over here, hopefully is smart enough
to clue in that the head of the union is actually
on really good terms. with your boss's boss's
boss's boss's boss and all the way down, that
generally, from my experience, if they're acute
enough or astute enough, should send the message
that, you know what, you may want to act in this
regard, but if you do, be very careful because
you will be held accountable and you might not
even know where it's coming from when you are.
Yeah, no, I think that's, you know. That's what
we need to do. I mean, I think where I really
struggle is just like you said, you got to call
some of these bastards out. I'm a nice bloke.
I really do believe that. And I want to just
go on and, you know, just enjoy. If I was still
in the uniform, enjoy the profession and be around
crews that have got their physical fitness and
their mental health and everything's, you know,
squared away. And we can just focus on, you know,
evolution as far as technology and training and
knowledge sharing. But as pointed out, if not
me, then who? Who the hell is just going to say
this isn't working? Fundamentally, the way you're
doing it isn't working. And if you look in, I'm
sure you've heard it in law enforcement, in fire
especially, we have an immense recruitment crisis,
an immense retention crisis. People aren't staying
their full 20, 25 years, a lot of them. And at
what point do you take ownership and say enough
is enough? And how many funerals? do we need
like i've said this like tongue in cheek well
give me a number how many dead firefighters do
we need for you to start fucking changing all
right we'll just you know any volunteers to make
that number all right now we're good now we're
going to change so this is what's so maddening
i was trying to articulate what i was trying
to say but um is it's the ones that did the job
for the right reason to get so angry about this
because as you said it's the bullies that we're
up against it's the cowards And when you care
about human beings to the point where you will
kiss your wife or your husband goodbye and hug
your kids and then walk out the door for 12 or
24 hours to go and risk your life for a complete
stranger, then if the environment is so toxic
that the very men and women that you adore to
the left and your right of you are dropping like
flies because of that, and the people that go
home at five o 'clock every night and sleep in
their own bed with their family are... pushing
against the solutions then yeah you have to dip
your knuckles in glass and you got to start swinging
that's just what so this is the thing is like
it's not coming from a place of empty criticism
it's just we tried the softly gently approach
and you didn't fucking listen so now as you said
you've got to call some of these people out and
you don't want to add shame but sometimes shame
is what what needs to happen and locally right
now i hope to god there's finally a spotlight
put on the lack of leadership It's causing all
these issues here and all these deaths, because,
again, how many people have to die before you
change? And if the answer is there aren't enough,
then you do not deserve to be in that position.
Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's why it's
absolutely critical. Ours is called an association,
but a police union in our. profession uh the
same as fire or whatever else i think that's
why those relationships in these associations
are so incredible it's incredibly important the
power that associations so i was on as a director
for the canadian police association as well so
the national body for three years and i can tell
you our national president tom stamatakis uh
you know he's he's dialed in all over the country
and i just think And for me, it was great because
I could come in after being away for so long.
And quite frankly, I just said, this is where
we need to go. I didn't have to work my way up
in the sense of having to befriend this person,
that person, whatever. And I'm not suggesting
that's how others got there. But what I am saying,
though, is that I think it's really critically
important. unions and police and the associations
in the first responder community because the
difference that you can make if you make these
relationships I've worked with other police association
executives where I see that they're having trouble
within their respective services where they're
not getting the respect that they deserve and
we've had fireside chats and we've talked about
relationships and how some of these people that
get in these positions are narcissists but they
also there's some ego in there too. So if you
use that and you say, okay, this person in this
service, and like I said, most of the people
that I deal with, and I keep saying these disclaimers
because it's true, they've always been decent
to me. I see them as many, but not all are. And
so you're able to take these people and use their
egos against them. So all of a sudden, when they
see that your friends, and I'll go into it again,
as a police association president when you're
friends with okay who's that person's area of
influence who who who who do they directly indirectly
sort of report to respect all these sorts of
things now go out go out and be friends if not
even better friends with those people and you
watch what happens you watch how all of a sudden
boom because they will look at you and they say
they'll be out of function you don't even have
to be um It's overbearing about it. You just
have to work your way into that circle and do
these different things in a professional capacity.
And you have to outread. My mom always says to
me, she goes, you just have to outreasonable
other people. And as soon as they look around
and most of them are smart enough to go, oh,
wait a second. Why is why is he or she with that
person? And you can force that. behavior change.
And so I love working with association people
that have come to me. And my advice is always,
we have these conversations and these firesides,
and some of them have employed those, let's say
tactics, but that way of being. And all of a
sudden I see now, and there's one particular
example I'm thinking of right now, where all
of a sudden within a short period of time, guess
what? they have this, I see all these pictures
where they're together now. I see all these pictures
where, you know, oh, they've got this incredible
relationship now. And a lot of that was born
from that person's hard work in developing those
relationships with those people that are influential
to the person that you're having that discord
with. And so I think when one door closes, association
leadership is absolutely critical to the component
of this, but where one door closes, I always
enjoy the challenge of finding out, okay, which
door are we going to go through to leverage those
relationships, to bring this person in line with
treating people the way that they should be treated
and never taking away the dignity of another
human being. So that's, to me, that's always
been my response and my answer. And it works.
Absolutely. Well, I want to hit one more area
and then, and I'd love to actually summarize,
you know, what you've created, you know, you
collectively have created as far as the mental
health resources in your area. But you've alluded
a few times now on the indigenous population.
And it's been interesting because that's not
actually even a group that I'm able to really
get guests from very often. I don't know if there's
an element of distrust or what it is, but several
people I've reached out just didn't come back.
So sadly, I'm usually listening to, more often
than not, law enforcement officers, sometimes
it's a fire paramedic. But you do hear a lot
of the struggles in some of these communities,
you know, the alcoholism, the domestic violence.
And if we talk about moral injury and loss of
tribe, well, I mean, that's a very specific label
in some of these areas. You know, some of these
people's cultures were literally, there was an
attempt to smite their entire existence off the
face of this continent. So talk to me. I mean,
it can be the highs, it can be lows, whatever
it is. But what are some of the things that people
need to know about indigenous populations in
Canada as far as through your lived experience?
Wow. Even to know where to start to answer something
like that. First off, you know, God gave you
two ears and one mouth for a reason, right? And
I found from my experiences, and this is just
me, I went to university in Thunder Bay. We had
a small Indigenous community in Port Perry, the
Mississaugas of Scugog Island First Nation, where
I'm from. And, you know, I had known some folks
from that community, but certainly growing up,
going to a university, at that time it was about
10 % where it was First Nations, Inuit and Métis.
persons that attended university. And there's
a significant Indigenous population in Thunder
Bay and surrounding areas. So when you go to
Thunder Bay, it's very much Thunder Bay. And
I love it. And at university, though, when I
got into student politics, I was talking earlier.
And I represented at that time an organization
called the Lakehead University Native Student
Association. It was called Loonside. I'm not
sure what it's called today. And I became really
good friends with a woman with the name of Linda
Henry, and who's with the creator now. And God
bless her. She was incredible. But we really
got along awesome, awesomely. When I was done
in May of 94, we went home to her home community,
a place called Frenchman's Head, Laksool First
Nation, which is in northwestern Ontario. I was
there for a few days on a reserve. I'd never
had spent any significant time on a remote reserve
before. I was hanging out with her and her family.
I mentioned earlier I didn't hunt. I went out
one day with her family and we went out hunting
and, you know, it was in basically, you know,
it was sustenance hunting. We were out, we got
some ducks, we brought them back, cooked them
on the open fire and we walked through the community.
And I talk a little bit about this in my book.
It's just in, it just, it was such an incredible,
overpowering experience. We found an eagle feather
underneath an eagle's nest, and she got that
for me, and she beaded it. And actually, I have
it. Excuse me. I just happen to have it with
me, actually, right here. This is my office a
lot of the times. So she made this for me and
had wrote on that, Faith, if you take good care
of this gift, guaranteed it will take good care
of you. your friend, Linda. And as you can see,
like I said, this is complete. She did the beadwork,
and you've got your eagle feather. This eagle
feather is 31 years old, and it has been with
me to so many different places of ceremony and
given me strength in times when I've needed it.
And at that time, she started telling me about
residential schools. And I didn't know anything
about that. I mean, it was nothing that we were
ever taught. And she was, you know, like so many
other people, she was a little bit older than
I was. So she had, you know, she would tell me
stories about, you know, them putting sort of
needles. in her tongue so she wouldn't speak
Ojibwe and trying to stop her from speaking her
language. And she would tell me these things
at the time. This was in 94. The last residential
school in Canada closed in 1996. Crazy. So, you
know, so I learned from her firsthand and her
family who shared some stories with me that I'll
just keep them with me. But they... You know,
it was always, it was never lost on me. So when
I worked the highway, I had the opportunity when
I first got on the job, there was Chippewa, Muncie
and Oneida. And there were three separate communities
together outside of London, Ontario. And I would
often find myself in the community, supporting
the community, supporting First Nations officers
who worked in those communities. And so in every
community, obviously is different. It's like
any other community that's out there. But the
one thing that is always true is respecting your
elders and listening more than you speak. And
so I remember one day there was a red -tailed
hawk that had been on the highway. You know,
sometimes the birds of prey get wrapped up and
like if a tractor trailer goes by, it gets caught
in the wind and it breaks its neck and it started
lying there. But the bird was in beautiful shape.
And I was in uniform and I drove up to the community
and the chief of the... reserve came out of the
territory and uh i just remember i'd never met
him before and i just i said to him i said i
want to give you this and he says he was really
simple it was just like thank you for thinking
of my people you know and really i credit that
just that small experience with that a cultural
understanding with the teachings that i had received
from my friend linda and and her community and
people and and and so I really think that's what
a lot of, I've always been very, very, it's funny
at my retirement, my, my buddy Vinnie, who's
he, he retired as well. We were classmates and
he was talking about the first time he ever met
me. And I was smudging sweetgrass in 1995 in
the residence in Brampton. And he was telling
this story. And I, not that I forgot about it.
I just hadn't thought about the story in a long
time. And the commissioner's there and my family's
everybody else and all my buddies and they're
listening to this story. And, and that's how
I became friends with, my lifelong friend Vinny,
and he's just a superhuman being, but we met
through that and by smudging and he could smell
it. And who knows, I may not have met him the
same way and had the same relationship. Right.
So I think when we open ourselves up to the fact
that there are different experiences and in histories,
some of which are not written in textbooks and
you listen to people, I think it helps us. not
only be better at our jobs but i think be better
human beings and and um you know and then you
know i so i just think when you're talking about
these sorts of things and the experiences that
i've had to answer your question it it would
take probably a long time to be able to talk
about i i was fortunate so when i was in the
academy i then had us a comment uh at that time
was called the aboriginal policing bureau it's
now it's not they don't use the word aboriginally
more it's indigenous but i i had the honor of
being a part -time fire keeper at sweat lodge
ceremonies because they took our officers and
civilians for five days up to a place called
mattawa ontario at samuel champlain park at that
time and uh they would have sweat lodge ceremonies
and being um you know facilitated by one of the
elders and i worked with another indigenous male
a great guy who I assisted him in being a non
-Indigenous person, like I am, these teachings
still are so valuable. And so fast forward to,
you know, any community. So I then had the honour
of going up to another community called Pikangikum
First Nation, and it's very remote. It's fly
-in or you drive in in the wintertime on the
ice road, or at that time you take a boat to
get in there. And it has really interesting dynamics
there. And I've been there four times. They usually
fly us up at two -week intervals. Many officers
have in the OPP. And it's supplemented the supports
provided to that community. And once again, it's
just some of the challenges that you find in
some of the communities. We hear things that
are stated very ignorantly by people. And I have
no problems calling that out, even if it's amongst
people that I love and respect. And, you know,
when you look at the residential school system
and you look at the prohibition of culture, tradition,
ceremony, language, and you look at the imposition,
intergenerational trauma, when you look at what
I said earlier about the elder. The elder who
told me what you do today affects the next seven
generations is also the elder that was running
the sweat lodge ceremonies for our people. And
so I think when they talk about reconciliation
today, we have a very strong Indigenous policing
bureau today in the Ontario Provincial Police.
It's come light years. There's been some incredible
leadership. A friend of mine. uh is uh the commander
of the indigenous policing bureau good guy extremely
knowledgeable extremely well respected and just
a source of incredible information and uh so
i i think i'm proud to be part of an organization
that has come that far um for me it's it's always
and that's why when That's one of the reasons
why when I sat in my office and I was talking
about the culture of the organization, a lot
of that cultural appreciation comes from my teachings
from Linda and from other Indigenous people that
I've had the privilege to meet and to listen
to. And so when you start blending that, so you
just have to realize that, especially when you're
in these positions, So, you know, as a white
male, yeah, I'm the president, but I represent
people that, that from all different walks of
life and all different belief systems, all different
religions, all different, like there's so many
different things that are happening, but there's
also a lot of commonalities. And so I think from
that perspective, you know, I'm proud to see
where the OPP has gone. I'm proud to see where
the OPP association has gone. Is there work to
do? Absolutely. There's still always more that
can be done. But I've actually, anytime I've
ever been on Indigenous territory, having the
privilege to police there, I've actually always
felt probably the most comfortable, to be honest.
And nothing but respect for the communities and
the elders and really, really... you know, really,
really positive interactions. I think sometimes
people, it's easy, and I've heard these generalizations.
People have generalized, oh, you know, this community
or that community. Well, you show me a community
outside of an Indigenous community that doesn't
have, take any small town. There's politics.
There's services that aren't being delivered.
Sometimes there's behavior that's happening within
a non -Indigenous community that's unacceptable.
So to think or to try to hold. other people or
communities to the same level that you're not
holding other people to, I think that's a starting
point or a jump off point to say, you know what,
take a good look in the mirror. So I think to
answer your question, I think that's kind of
always been my way. And I tell people, go out
and experience these things for yourself. Go
meet some people. Go listen to some people. Absolutely.
Well, Before we go to closing questions and talking
about your book, just give me the bullet points
of that encompassing system that you guys have
now so that people listening can understand,
you know, all the different tendrils of this,
these resources that they have available to them
in your law enforcement agency. Yeah, so the
whole purpose of the book for me, it's multifaceted.
First and foremost, all the proceeds go to organizations,
survivors of law enforcement, which includes
many women whose husbands were killed in the
line of duty. The second organization is Canada
Beyond the Blue. So they support families, bringing
supports and services to those, bringing awareness
to those who have died as a result of the line
of duty, suicide. And Boots on the Ground, which
is a support organization as well. So first,
I think it's really important to say that first
and foremost. The other purpose of writing the
book was to explain sort of how what we dealt
with and what we were faced with, how we dealt
with it, and then the result of it. And so say
you're having a problem in the United States
in some fire. hall or region or police or paramedic
or first responder, military, whatever, you can
take this book and you can, it's, it's, it's
like a two hour read. And you can, you can look
at and see how we handled that. And some of the
stuff I've talked to you already today about,
but the gist of this book is our commissioner
of the Ontario provincial police, Thomas Carrick.
I was saying he's the president of the Canadian
Association of Chiefs of Police, well -respected,
top cop in the country as far as I'm concerned,
does the foreword to the book. And then chapter
one is one of our widows whose husband died by
suicide on the job. And so then from there, just
a little bit about my background, but it's weaved
in such a way that I wanted to write this book
with my writer, Laurie Stevens. And I mentioned
her name only because I mentioned her name only
because and for the primary reason is that I
couldn't have written this book by myself. And
so respect to her. And she did her work pro bono
as well on the betterment of the first responders.
And then it basically talks about coming into
and becoming a police officer and some of those
experiences, but then becoming president and
then coming into the 2018 suicide crisis. And
what I was facing as president and we were facing
as an association and the void that I had to,
and I talked about this earlier, we had to move
forward in many ways on our own because we went
through five commissioners within that period
of time. And initially we were working with a
commissioner in 2018 who later retired and then
there's five of them. That's unprecedented. in
an organization in the midst of the worst suicide
and mental health crisis facing the organization.
And anyone can argue that with me all they want.
There's no argument. So our response to it was,
and as I was mentioning, is basically we needed
to come up with something that would address
in the concierge model, the care management model,
and where that came from, and I touched on it
briefly, was... Going to one of the funerals
and meeting one of the widows and listening to
her try to articulate the situation with her
husband and how they had a hell of a time trying
to find and navigate the effective resources
required for him. And I remember a friend of
mine who called me up. and her husband was in
pretty tough shape. He's a police officer. And
I was able, through our benefits team, we had
an incredible benefits team at the office, get
him, this is before the program came online,
but to be able to get him the supports that he
required. And I looked at the two, and because
I represented thousands of people, it's impossible
for me to know everybody. But in this case, she
knew me. And she could make the call. In the
other case, she didn't know me. And I said to
myself, I go, this is unacceptable. We need to
have a central point that people can call at
any time of the day and to be able to immediately
get connected with the resources they need. That's
sort of what this book is about. It talks about
the statistics. It's been operating for five
years. As I said, it was up to 4 ,000 members
and their families. The beauty of this program
is we still have about 60 % of the people that
participated in this program since year one are
still in the program. So they continue to receive
emails. They continue to receive phone calls.
They continue to engage. Not all of them are
off. Some are off. Some are back. And so this
program keeps people in the workplace. This helps
people that are out of the workplace. This program
helps people get back into the workplace. Am
I saying that this thing does everything for
everybody? No, because I don't think there is
something like that. But there isn't anything
that I can think of. That this doesn't offer.
And so when we talk about our heads hitting a
pillow at the end of the night, before we had
this, I couldn't sleep. I was worried. I was
scared. We were losing members. We were losing
people by the hundreds out of the workplace.
So when you look at it, not even from a financial
standpoint, first and foremost, to your point
earlier, what is one life worth? It's worth whatever
you're going to put into this. It's you do everything
that you can to succeed and to make it more than
just a mile wide and an inch deep. And so the
financial aspect of things, because people say,
well, how we can't afford that. We can't afford
that. Think about people not being in the workplace.
Think about all the overtime that you have to
spend to bring people in. Think about the people
you're burning out on top of that because they're
coming in to backfill those people. Think about
the work environment where you have all kinds
of people that are finally on their days off
and they're saying, you know, I'd love to help,
but my days are coming in backfilling because
there's a staffing crisis. You're done. Because
if I don't draw a line somewhere, and it really
puts people like ourselves that this is a calling,
it puts us really in a conflictual position because
our... As first responders, we want to help.
We want to serve. We don't want to let people
down. But you know what? More and more, especially
with the new generation, and I do respect them
for this very much, more willing to put on that
oxygen mask and say, you know what? I need to
take care of myself physically, mentally, and
I cannot get burned out like in the past. And
so that's a critical piece. This book here, and
hopefully this isn't a shameless plug or anything
like that, and you don't mind me raising it,
is In Pursuit of Mental Wellness in the First
Responder Community. It's on Amazon right now.
Like I said, it's a couple -hour read, but I
hope that if people are listening to this podcast,
and I know they are, maybe they're having difficulties
within their respective services. There's some
really, really good ideas that can be pulled
out of this. And I'm really proud of our team.
I'm really proud of the people that have stepped
up to use it. And I'm really proud of the high,
high percentage of people that sing this program's
praises because it takes that trust from others
who use a program like this. If you don't have
trust, you don't have anything. So there's absolute
this program. I'm just I'm super proud of it.
And, you know, if this is what I'm remembered
for, if it's the only thing, I'm good with that.
And, you know, I feel I feel like I can, you
know, get into retirement and be very proud that
I know that my fellow brothers and sisters that
are putting it on the line each and every day,
both physically and mentally, they've got some
good fallbacks. Beautiful. For people listening,
you said that the book was available on Amazon.
What if they want to learn more about you or
reach out to you? They're more than welcome to
reach out to me at Rob K. Jameson, J -A -M -I
-E -S -O -N, 8866 at gmail .com. And when you
pull that up, you'll be able to the website for
this as well. But yeah, there's lots of. And
I would also encourage people as well, if they
want, obviously, to do a search just on the Encompass
program, E -N -C -O -M -P -A -S, the OPP Association.
And there's lots of stuff that's out there. You
can see firsthand some of the challenges. But
certainly 10 years ago, day two, we were an organization,
and I think from a leadership standpoint as well,
of how do you rebuild something? to make it what
it should be for the people that absolutely deserve
it. And myself and the team of people I had around
me really leaned in and did a deep dive. And
when you look at where they are today, yeah,
there's still more work to be done, but I'm really
proud of the work that everyone has done. Well,
I want to thank you so much. It's been such an
interesting conversation, especially the parallel
between some of your own mental health challenges
and some of the solutions that you found, but
then also the union element and how do you take
something that has been kind of torn apart and
start building those relationships and building
that trust again. And then obviously the Encompass
solutions that you've got in the book. So I want
to thank you so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you, James. It's an absolute
privilege to be on here.