WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.799 This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:05.879 first staffing software to be truly firefighter 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:09.259 proof. Now, you may be wondering why I have software 00:00:09.259 --> 00:00:11.820 as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical 00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:15.000 and mental health of the first responders, and 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.379 I will tell you exactly why. For the first time, 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:21.699 this is a staffing platform that also is able 00:00:21.699 --> 00:00:25.140 to integrate wellness information through core 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:29.100 load tracking, exposures, and wearables integration. 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:33.119 Now, of course, StationWise focuses on staffing 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:36.439 and allows you to manage staffing, choose vacation 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:40.700 picks, put in rules for leave and trades, and 00:00:40.700 --> 00:00:43.600 even deploying strike teams. But through the 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:46.759 latest programming and AI automation, they have 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.640 streamlined this process to free up battalion 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.159 chiefs so they can focus on what they're supposed 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:54.899 to be doing on the operational side and the fire 00:00:54.899 --> 00:00:58.009 ground. Now, StationWise is also able to monitor 00:00:58.009 --> 00:01:00.469 not only how many calls we've responded to in 00:01:00.469 --> 00:01:03.210 a shift, but the duration of the call, therefore 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:06.530 the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring 00:01:06.530 --> 00:01:09.129 the sleep deprivation that degrades our health 00:01:09.129 --> 00:01:12.069 and performance. It's accessible not only through 00:01:12.069 --> 00:01:15.030 the computer, but also on Apple and Android devices, 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:17.989 meaning that you can access it not only within 00:01:17.989 --> 00:01:21.439 the station itself, but outside as well. Now, 00:01:21.459 --> 00:01:23.719 one of the most powerful features of StationWise, 00:01:23.780 --> 00:01:26.599 in my opinion, is the ability to run reports. 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.599 Therefore, for example, be able to see just how 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.620 much money is being used on overtime that could 00:01:33.620 --> 00:01:36.579 actually be front -loaded for proactive staffing, 00:01:36.900 --> 00:01:39.920 as well as setting alarms knowing when you are 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.079 hitting overtime parameters. And another important 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:46.140 feature is the integration of other programs 00:01:46.140 --> 00:01:49.120 and software for payroll, training, reports, 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:52.920 etc. Now, StationWise is trusted by numerous 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.459 agencies in California, Texas, and Idaho. And 00:01:57.459 --> 00:02:00.060 if you want to hear the full story from the founder, 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.439 who he himself is a son of a firefighter, listen 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:08.680 to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.979 want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise 00:02:11.979 --> 00:02:16.479 .com. This episode is sponsored by Transcend, 00:02:16.580 --> 00:02:19.460 a veteran -owned and operated performance optimization 00:02:19.460 --> 00:02:22.539 company that I introduced recently as a sponsor 00:02:22.539 --> 00:02:25.319 on this show. Well, since then, I have actually 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:27.560 been using my products and I have had incredible 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:30.439 success. There was initial blood work that was 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:33.520 extremely detailed and based on that, they offered 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.030 supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. BPC 00:02:38.030 --> 00:02:40.889 -157 for inflammation based on the fact that 00:02:40.889 --> 00:02:42.810 I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a 00:02:42.810 --> 00:02:45.069 firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and 00:02:45.069 --> 00:02:48.370 pains. Dihexa to help cognition after multiple 00:02:48.370 --> 00:02:51.409 punches to the head and shift work and peptides. 00:02:51.590 --> 00:02:53.770 Four months later, they did a detailed blood 00:02:53.770 --> 00:02:56.330 work again and I was actually able to taper off 00:02:56.330 --> 00:02:58.969 two of the peptides because my body had responded 00:02:58.969 --> 00:03:01.590 so well to just one of them that it was optimized 00:03:01.590 --> 00:03:05.020 at that point. So I cannot speak highly enough 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:08.020 of the immense range of supplementation that 00:03:08.020 --> 00:03:10.280 they offer, whether it's male health, female 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:13.020 health, peptides to boost your own testosterone, 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:15.319 which I would argue is needed by a lot of the 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:18.060 fire service, or whether it's exogenous testosterone 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:21.240 needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age. 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:23.979 Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of 00:03:23.979 --> 00:03:26.479 this company is an altruistic arm called the 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.340 Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans 00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:32.139 and first responders through some of their protocols 00:03:32.139 --> 00:03:35.840 free of charge. Now, Transcend are also offering 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.520 you, the audience, 10 % off their protocols. 00:03:38.740 --> 00:03:41.620 And you can find that on jamesgearing .com under 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:44.340 the products tab. And if you want to hear more 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:47.060 about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 00:03:47.060 --> 00:03:51.879 808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:56.520 transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind 00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:58.460 the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:00.439 Geering, and this week it is my absolute honor 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.580 to welcome on the show 30 -year law enforcement 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:07.039 veteran, director of the Ontario Provincial Police 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:12.180 Association, and author Rob Jameson. Now, in 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:14.599 this conversation, we discuss a host of topics, 00:04:14.780 --> 00:04:17.339 from Rob's journey into the world of law enforcement, 00:04:17.579 --> 00:04:21.930 fighting organized crime, protecting the indigenous 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:25.509 population, entering the union leadership position 00:04:25.509 --> 00:04:28.810 after fraudulent practices of the previous administration, 00:04:29.250 --> 00:04:32.149 how they were able to rebuild trust amongst the 00:04:32.149 --> 00:04:36.110 ranks and leadership, mental health, and so much 00:04:36.110 --> 00:04:39.170 more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:04:39.410 --> 00:04:41.910 as I say every week, please just take a moment, 00:04:42.050 --> 00:04:45.410 go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:04:45.410 --> 00:04:49.230 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:53.170 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:04:53.170 --> 00:04:55.930 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:04:55.930 --> 00:04:59.629 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:04:59.629 --> 00:05:04.290 almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:05:04.290 --> 00:05:07.470 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:05:07.470 --> 00:05:10.649 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:05:10.649 --> 00:05:13.490 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:05:13.990 --> 00:05:18.250 So with that being said, I introduce to you Rob 00:05:18.250 --> 00:05:41.110 Jameson. Enjoy. Well, Rob, I want to start by 00:05:41.110 --> 00:05:43.589 saying thank you so much for taking the time 00:05:43.589 --> 00:05:45.769 and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today. 00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:49.230 Yeah, thank you very much for having me. It's 00:05:49.230 --> 00:05:50.810 a true privilege and honor. Thank you, James. 00:05:51.129 --> 00:05:53.149 So where on planet Earth are we finding you this 00:05:53.149 --> 00:05:55.910 afternoon? You're finding me in about a foot 00:05:55.910 --> 00:06:00.250 of snow in Barrie, Ontario. And I live here with 00:06:00.250 --> 00:06:02.589 my family. I just recently retired from the Ontario 00:06:02.589 --> 00:06:04.829 Provincial Police and our police union, the OPP 00:06:04.829 --> 00:06:09.149 Association. And that's where I reside. And as 00:06:09.149 --> 00:06:11.110 I was mentioning to you, I still have to go out 00:06:11.110 --> 00:06:13.569 and shovel some snow. So thank you very much 00:06:13.569 --> 00:06:16.290 for having me on today. Like I said, it's a real 00:06:16.290 --> 00:06:18.319 privilege. Thank you. Yeah, well, I'm excited 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.139 for this conversation. Starting at the very beginning 00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:23.079 of your timeline then, tell me where you were 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:25.040 born and tell me a little bit about your family 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.439 dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings. 00:06:30.500 --> 00:06:34.399 Yeah, so I was born in Toronto, but what was 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.980 formerly known, I guess, as North York General. 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:41.899 And my family, we didn't have a whole lot financially 00:06:41.899 --> 00:06:46.560 sort of growing up. We had a pretty solid family. 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:50.879 I feel really blessed. We lived on a farmhouse 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:54.519 that my parents rented off the farmers in Richmond 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:56.420 Hill. It was on a dairy farm. So we lived there 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:59.120 for a few years when I was young. And it's interesting. 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.600 To this day, even as a young child, and as you 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.240 know, these things sort of affect. It's amazing 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:07.259 what happens in your youth that continues to 00:07:07.259 --> 00:07:10.199 affect you throughout your life. And there's 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.199 different nuances. But we moved from there to 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:15.920 a small town called Port Perry, which is about 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.040 an hour northeast of Toronto. So I grew up in 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:22.120 a small town and have some amazing. family, some 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:26.740 amazing friends up until today. Went to university 00:07:26.740 --> 00:07:29.800 in Thunder Bay, Ontario. I went to Lakehead University. 00:07:30.139 --> 00:07:33.560 And I have one brother. He lives in Singapore. 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:36.199 He's a teacher. I have his wife and his son. 00:07:36.339 --> 00:07:40.319 And I have a lovely wife, Leah, and my daughters. 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.620 One is in university going through to be a commercial 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:46.759 airline pilot. And my other daughter, which she's 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:50.629 talking about right now. possibly getting into 00:07:50.629 --> 00:07:52.769 a profession of policing and law enforcement. 00:07:52.870 --> 00:07:56.250 So, you know, strong, capable, powerful women. 00:07:56.410 --> 00:07:59.730 And, you know, just, I've been blessed with a 00:07:59.730 --> 00:08:03.029 great family. And like I said, and friends. And, 00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:06.149 you know, it's, like I said, we didn't have a 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:10.290 whole lot, but that's okay. I, you know, it's 00:08:10.290 --> 00:08:14.490 always kept me grounded. And especially in the 00:08:14.490 --> 00:08:16.370 type of police work that I got into and joining 00:08:16.370 --> 00:08:20.620 the Ontario Provincial Police in 1995. We police. 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:22.720 It's very similar to the state troopers, similar 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.319 to like a Michigan state trooper kind of model 00:08:25.319 --> 00:08:26.680 where you're doing the highways, but you're also 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:29.160 policing, providing policing services to small 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.660 towns and municipalities and medium sized communities. 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:36.519 So it was a great spot. And being from a small 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:38.980 town and policing small towns, it's exactly what 00:08:38.980 --> 00:08:41.759 I love to do. What did your parents do as far 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.519 as occupation? So my dad, it's been a tough year. 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:52.379 Just on that note, my dad, we just recently got 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:57.940 dad into a nursing home. And so it's been exceptionally 00:08:57.940 --> 00:09:02.840 tough. My mom grew up on military bases in Petawawa 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.120 and Borden, went to high school. Her dad, my 00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:08.759 grandfather, was in World War II. He was a combat 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:13.379 engineer. France, Italy. many of the front lines 00:09:13.379 --> 00:09:18.220 ahead of the front lines and Korea. And so my 00:09:18.220 --> 00:09:22.100 mom grew up in a, in a pretty structured environment, 00:09:22.220 --> 00:09:25.379 shall we say? And she was a nurse and it was 00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:27.919 just, just an incredible human being. And then 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.779 my dad, just an awesome guy too, but we all grew 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:32.440 up playing hockey. He owned a sports store in 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:34.960 a small town and he was an accountant on a dealership, 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:38.519 that sort of thing. And yeah, like I said, I 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.960 just. I've just been really, really blessed. 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:45.519 And, you know, it's, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:47.940 hear about your dad. I mean, that's a hard decision 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:53.299 to have to make. It's tough. It's like so many 00:09:53.299 --> 00:09:57.000 people have had to go through it or going through 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.700 it, will go through it. It's a tough system to 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:01.759 navigate. It's not something that it takes a 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.129 lot of energy, but you do it. You step up. because 00:10:05.129 --> 00:10:06.570 these are the ones that you love and that they've 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:10.190 taken care of you. And yeah, he's content and 00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:11.610 he's in a good place and they treat him with 00:10:11.610 --> 00:10:14.330 respect. So I appreciate your words. Thank you, 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:16.669 James. You mentioned that your grandfather was 00:10:16.669 --> 00:10:19.889 a World War II veteran. Were you ever able to 00:10:19.889 --> 00:10:23.169 hear him talking about the war at all? Well, 00:10:23.190 --> 00:10:27.549 it's interesting you say that. No, my grandfather 00:10:27.549 --> 00:10:32.149 experienced some pretty severe things. We would 00:10:32.149 --> 00:10:37.649 only hear He did not speak like some veterans, 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:39.570 him and my grandmother. My grandmother is 103, 00:10:39.929 --> 00:10:41.830 actually. She's a World War II veteran. She was 00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:45.330 in the RCAF Women's Division in World War II. 00:10:45.570 --> 00:10:47.889 And I often ask her still to this day, I said, 00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:49.409 tell us about the time you're up in the Harvards, 00:10:49.409 --> 00:10:50.830 you know, when they're doing the bombing runs 00:10:50.830 --> 00:10:52.389 at the gunnery school you were at and stuff. 00:10:52.789 --> 00:10:56.129 And she walks a quarter mile a day. She's at 00:10:56.129 --> 00:10:58.970 103. She's just incredible. But my grandfather, 00:10:59.289 --> 00:11:05.250 even when he went into... um the nursing home 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:09.350 i know my mom uh you know they had you know they 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:11.730 would have conversations and it's you know they 00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:15.610 would say hey listen um my grandfather was such 00:11:15.610 --> 00:11:17.529 an incredible human being didn't talk about it 00:11:17.529 --> 00:11:20.889 um and you know went to the legion and uh you 00:11:20.889 --> 00:11:23.289 know had a few drinks and uh and that sort of 00:11:23.289 --> 00:11:25.929 thing um obviously there was no appreciation 00:11:25.929 --> 00:11:29.039 at that time for some of the some of the effects 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.000 of trauma, especially some of the things that 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.919 I can only imagine that he's seen. My uncle has 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.759 told me a couple of things. Obviously, being 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:39.440 as a combat engineer or a sapper in World War 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:42.159 II, not only were you on the front lines, and 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:44.159 sometimes you were ahead of the front lines, 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:46.139 you know, blowing up bridges or building bridges 00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:49.220 or doing those sorts of things. So, you know, 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.399 I just know from some of the stories, a couple 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:56.610 of stories I've heard that... And he was certainly 00:11:56.610 --> 00:11:59.370 there and did it and had the T -shirt. And certainly 00:11:59.370 --> 00:12:01.549 being a police officer now and being diagnosed 00:12:01.549 --> 00:12:07.149 with complex PTSD myself, I can appreciate somewhat. 00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:09.950 I could never put myself in the position and 00:12:09.950 --> 00:12:12.409 the experiences that he had, but I can appreciate 00:12:12.409 --> 00:12:16.570 somewhat why he would be reluctant and others 00:12:16.570 --> 00:12:18.889 would be reluctant to talk about these things 00:12:18.889 --> 00:12:22.350 because it's extremely triggering and certainly 00:12:22.350 --> 00:12:27.860 can cause. And yeah, it's incredibly difficult 00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:31.659 to talk about. You kind of alluded to the impact 00:12:31.659 --> 00:12:34.799 of early life on later life. One of the things 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:38.000 that I was educated on early in this podcast 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.299 was the impact of experiences as a child that 00:12:41.299 --> 00:12:44.519 would then factor in our career. So if they were 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:46.820 unaddressed trauma, for example, and it was pushed 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:49.179 down, it would be a compounding effect for all 00:12:49.179 --> 00:12:51.460 the other things that we see and do. When you 00:12:51.460 --> 00:12:54.750 reflect back now with this, different lens that 00:12:54.750 --> 00:12:56.870 we have in 2025 and we're talking about mental 00:12:56.870 --> 00:13:00.690 health what were if any elements that contributed 00:13:00.690 --> 00:13:06.269 to your struggles later you know these are conversations 00:13:06.269 --> 00:13:11.559 that i've often had and obviously in 2020 you 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.419 know i've been to uh well i was president and 00:13:14.419 --> 00:13:16.240 chief executive officer of the ontario provincial 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.000 police association there's a title uh i ended 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.419 up being in residential treatment twice at a 00:13:23.419 --> 00:13:26.320 place called project trauma support and you know 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.059 it's not lost on me that Some people have been 00:13:30.059 --> 00:13:34.419 through quite a bit of childhood trauma, and 00:13:34.419 --> 00:13:37.059 certainly it presents itself throughout their 00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:39.600 lives in many different ways, whether it's addictions 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:44.259 or certain behaviors or whatever. I look back 00:13:44.259 --> 00:13:48.850 and I think... It wasn't so much my childhood, 00:13:48.929 --> 00:13:51.389 my youth. You know, like I said, we didn't have 00:13:51.389 --> 00:13:53.169 a whole lot. But, you know, a lot of my friends 00:13:53.169 --> 00:13:54.769 didn't have a whole lot either. You know, this 00:13:54.769 --> 00:13:57.330 isn't, you know, we never, we were fortunate. 00:13:57.370 --> 00:13:59.870 There was a few things that we didn't do or participate 00:13:59.870 --> 00:14:02.350 in. But for the most part, you know, I was very 00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:04.610 blessed. You know, I didn't have some of the 00:14:04.610 --> 00:14:08.370 trauma that some people I know and love and respect 00:14:08.370 --> 00:14:10.230 did and some of the people that I've met along 00:14:10.230 --> 00:14:12.129 the way as a police officer. You know, when I 00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:13.909 was a detective in major crime, you know, I would 00:14:13.909 --> 00:14:16.669 investigate. you know, sexual offenses against 00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:22.149 children, for example. And, you know, I saw firsthand 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:25.669 what some of that trauma did to young people. 00:14:26.149 --> 00:14:29.830 And it's always what sort of fueled me with regards 00:14:29.830 --> 00:14:33.230 to those investigations. And, you know, certainly, 00:14:33.370 --> 00:14:35.629 so I feel blessed in the one way, but where I 00:14:35.629 --> 00:14:39.710 find some of the trauma. that I experienced more 00:14:39.710 --> 00:14:43.610 so in my teens, external to my family, was deeply 00:14:43.610 --> 00:14:46.029 impactful. And one of the exercises I did when 00:14:46.029 --> 00:14:48.850 I went through counseling, and I've never talked 00:14:48.850 --> 00:14:51.210 about this, and I'm pretty much an open book, 00:14:51.429 --> 00:14:57.009 is an exercise where they said, go back to this 00:14:57.009 --> 00:15:00.009 point in your life in your mind. And let's examine 00:15:00.009 --> 00:15:02.029 this time in history. And I'm sure you've probably 00:15:02.029 --> 00:15:04.950 seen these exercises before. I found that I went 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:09.009 back to when I was 17. I went back into even 00:15:09.009 --> 00:15:11.230 a little bit before that. And I found that to 00:15:11.230 --> 00:15:14.590 be an incredibly powerful experience to go back 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:19.470 as Rob Jamison now, what I know now, and before 00:15:19.470 --> 00:15:22.769 I was a police officer. and talk about that period 00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:26.789 in your life here, here, and here. And I found 00:15:26.789 --> 00:15:29.850 that was probably something that impacted me 00:15:29.850 --> 00:15:32.509 more greatly than anything that ever happened 00:15:32.509 --> 00:15:34.470 when I was a youth. So I was fortunate that way. 00:15:34.549 --> 00:15:37.769 Yeah, James. See, it's such an interesting conversation 00:15:37.769 --> 00:15:41.190 because there are two sides to it. If we have 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:43.549 struggles and they are not addressed, it can 00:15:43.549 --> 00:15:46.590 be a detriment. It can be a fracture to our foundation. 00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:50.279 If we have struggles and we address it, I truly 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.159 believe it can be a strength. It can be true 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:54.639 resilience that we talk about. It creates strength. 00:15:54.740 --> 00:15:58.100 It creates empathy, all these areas. And so having 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:00.860 the conversation at the front door in the first 00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:03.539 responder professions, the same way as you would 00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:06.980 with PT, say if you're here now, if you've put 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:09.200 your hand up and said, I will serve when so many 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:11.559 didn't, there's a good chance that there are 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.200 some things that happened prior to this that 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:16.960 have created this path for you. So we're going 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:19.559 to start talking about it from day one. And we're 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.019 going to get you to realize that if we talk about 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:24.360 it and we work through it, this will be an asset 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:27.379 the same way as your marksmanship and your fitness 00:16:27.379 --> 00:16:28.840 and all these other things will be an asset. 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.120 But if we just do the box checking psych test 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.379 once and then basically say, OK, well, they're 00:16:35.379 --> 00:16:38.139 not a lunatic. We're good. Then we're completely 00:16:38.139 --> 00:16:41.059 missing this conversation at the front door to 00:16:41.059 --> 00:16:44.980 really hit mental health from day one. I think 00:16:44.980 --> 00:16:47.220 that's a really good point. And I and in 2019, 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.389 so. um we haven't quite got to it yet but in 00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:54.330 2015 I was 10 years ago this is like my second 00:16:54.330 --> 00:16:57.090 day on the job as president and CEO of the largest 00:16:57.090 --> 00:17:00.889 police union in Canada and I sort of got there 00:17:00.889 --> 00:17:04.759 through an absolute upheaval of the association 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.559 in 2015 and a lot of it is searchable online 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.220 you know the national police force executed a 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:13.720 search warrant in march the 6th 2015 and uh there 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.259 were some vacancies shall we say for presidents 00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:18.579 and vice presidents and the cao of our corporation 00:17:18.579 --> 00:17:22.859 and i ran and i was a platoon sergeant in the 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:25.059 academy running leadership coaching and running 00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:26.920 all the sexual sexual assault domestic violence 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:29.259 courses and then recruit instructor but then 00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:31.339 I went back on their own as a team leader and 00:17:31.339 --> 00:17:35.019 got into this position of president and it was 00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:38.339 interesting getting in at that time just what 00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:41.059 you're talking about with regards to stigma some 00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:42.680 of what you're talking about as well as stigma 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.980 and sort of fast forward the program that I designed 00:17:46.980 --> 00:17:49.880 with our team and led the implementation of what 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:51.920 you're seeing now with recruits that are coming 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.099 on is they're immediately getting a baseline 00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:57.930 many of them now And so the stigma has reduced 00:17:57.930 --> 00:18:01.410 in such a way and supports have increased in 00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:04.170 such a way. So in 2019, with our team, I negotiated 00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:08.009 unlimited psychological supports for our members 00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:10.549 and their families. And it has just been a massive 00:18:10.549 --> 00:18:13.789 run on this. We had caps before, sort of $1 ,500 00:18:13.789 --> 00:18:16.630 a year, $3 ,500 a year. When I first got in, 00:18:16.630 --> 00:18:19.769 it was $1 ,500, $50 a half hour. The average 00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:23.789 session is $200 an hour, Canadian. And so we 00:18:23.789 --> 00:18:27.529 were upside down $100 each time. So would you 00:18:27.529 --> 00:18:30.089 have utilized those supports? Then we changed 00:18:30.089 --> 00:18:33.450 to $3 ,500 and $75 a half hour. And then we just 00:18:33.450 --> 00:18:36.170 blew the doors off after 2018, after experiencing 00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:40.130 three suicides within three weeks of OPP officers. 00:18:40.450 --> 00:18:43.329 We went into 2019 and we just blew the doors 00:18:43.329 --> 00:18:46.329 off. But as a result of that, and speaking about 00:18:46.329 --> 00:18:49.849 mental health and suicide and trauma and all 00:18:49.849 --> 00:18:52.619 these things, and as the president, of the union 00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:55.799 um i had a i had a platform for which i could 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.359 discuss some of these things discuss stigma and 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.559 get it out there and start talking somewhat personally 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.099 and professionally but one of the great things 00:19:04.099 --> 00:19:05.940 now like i was saying though and to tie in with 00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:10.630 what you're saying is um We have so many people 00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:13.769 now that are reaching out, and it is so great 00:19:13.769 --> 00:19:16.750 to see. I give them so much credit, and much 00:19:16.750 --> 00:19:19.190 of what we have today has been inspired by the 00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:21.769 widows, by their families, by our members, and 00:19:21.769 --> 00:19:23.910 then the courage of those that make the call 00:19:23.910 --> 00:19:26.809 to our mental health program to take advantage 00:19:26.809 --> 00:19:28.690 of those services, which they rightly deserve. 00:19:29.809 --> 00:19:31.829 Absolutely. Well, I'm going to want to walk through 00:19:31.829 --> 00:19:34.470 back to that point, but let's go back to early 00:19:34.470 --> 00:19:37.660 life. What were you playing and doing as far 00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:42.279 as sports and exercise back then? What, like 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.000 in high school type thing? Yes, school age. Yeah, 00:19:46.059 --> 00:19:48.960 so I grew up playing hockey, which probably doesn't 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.180 strike you as strange, I guess. And I also refereed 00:19:52.180 --> 00:19:56.200 hockey. I refereed a lot of hockey. And I was 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.160 always at the rink. I'd work at the rink. So 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.759 those sorts of things. My brother was an all 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:04.579 -around athlete. Played hockey and did the best 00:20:04.579 --> 00:20:06.839 I could and had this really strong friend group. 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:08.140 So there's always doing something. There's always 00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:10.279 sort of team sports the whole way through. Obviously, 00:20:10.339 --> 00:20:13.259 I think in life, maybe you appreciate those sorts 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:16.000 of things more. The older you get and you reflect 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.140 and you go, yeah, that certainly did have a huge 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:20.640 impact. Certainly some of my friends, myself, 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.220 it gave us structure, opportunity, physical education, 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.789 positive mental health, camaraderie. One of the 00:20:29.789 --> 00:20:31.630 reasons why I decided I wanted to become a police 00:20:31.630 --> 00:20:33.569 officer is I was starting to referee hockey at 00:20:33.569 --> 00:20:39.509 a higher level. And I enjoyed being able to participate 00:20:39.509 --> 00:20:43.630 in sport. But at the same time, I enjoyed the 00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:46.910 refereeing or the officiating aspect of things. 00:20:47.049 --> 00:20:49.450 And it was sort of a natural kind of bridge to 00:20:49.450 --> 00:20:52.609 then becoming a police officer. Well, speaking 00:20:52.609 --> 00:20:54.670 of becoming a police officer, when you were in 00:20:54.670 --> 00:20:56.410 the school age, was that what you were already 00:20:56.410 --> 00:20:58.329 thinking of? Or was this another career in mind 00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:01.680 at the time? I wanted to be a conservation officer. 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:03.579 So I had worked for our Ministry of Natural Resources. 00:21:03.940 --> 00:21:08.319 So I, it just, at the time it was, it wasn't 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.539 a, it was tough to get in there and basically 00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:15.779 being a game warden and being out, I loved outdoors. 00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:18.519 I went to university for outdoors. I was a cottager. 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.400 I loved to fish. I never was into hunting. I 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.500 never grew up with that, but I certainly, I'm 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:25.519 around a lot of family and friends that do and 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:32.789 totally respect that. So that's what I wanted 00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:37.269 to do. But changing into a career direction a 00:21:37.269 --> 00:21:40.490 little bit, I found being sort of a rural police 00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:42.390 officer, small town police officer, highways, 00:21:42.609 --> 00:21:45.589 rural, that sort of thing, I still was around 00:21:45.589 --> 00:21:47.369 many of the same things and worked alongside 00:21:47.369 --> 00:21:49.529 some of the conservation officers over the years. 00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:53.710 So it was still a really, really good fit. So 00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:56.150 walk me through the kind of front door for law 00:21:56.150 --> 00:22:01.109 enforcement for you then. Well, I went to university. 00:22:01.369 --> 00:22:05.150 I got involved in years three and four. And my 00:22:05.150 --> 00:22:08.670 roommate, who was a Paralympian, had cerebral 00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:13.210 palsy. And he was a Paralympian for Canada and 00:22:13.210 --> 00:22:17.230 really was one of the inspirations of my life, 00:22:17.230 --> 00:22:20.549 being his caregiver. He's a solid dude and just 00:22:20.549 --> 00:22:23.750 a really good guy, really life -changing. And 00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:25.670 I got into student politics. I was the president 00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:27.109 of my student union while I was at university. 00:22:27.609 --> 00:22:29.549 And at that time, we were the last university 00:22:29.549 --> 00:22:31.349 in the province. You know, my brain's going back 00:22:31.349 --> 00:22:33.630 a few years here. They didn't have a health plan 00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:35.950 for its students. We were the only ones. And 00:22:35.950 --> 00:22:38.690 I said, you know, that's something we need to 00:22:38.690 --> 00:22:41.349 remedy. So we worked together and we brought 00:22:41.349 --> 00:22:45.170 it in for 93, 94. And we then became, and to 00:22:45.170 --> 00:22:47.190 this day, that program is still there. It's flourished. 00:22:47.230 --> 00:22:48.869 You know, I brought in a food bank as well that 00:22:48.869 --> 00:22:52.390 year, which at the time, a lot of people were. 00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:56.529 You know, why do you need this and this and this 00:22:56.529 --> 00:22:58.250 and this? And I think that's really what leadership 00:22:58.250 --> 00:23:00.150 is. I think leadership is looking at opportunities 00:23:00.150 --> 00:23:05.269 where there are gaps. I don't like to do things 00:23:05.269 --> 00:23:07.910 a mile wide and an inch deep. I like to do things, 00:23:07.990 --> 00:23:09.970 I like to look at it. It's one of my strengths 00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:12.750 is I can see something for what it is, see the 00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:14.690 gaps, see where the rubber meets the road. How 00:23:14.690 --> 00:23:17.069 does that affect the people? And we push through 00:23:17.069 --> 00:23:19.109 in the food bank today, this food resource center 00:23:19.109 --> 00:23:21.170 that has grown into today at Lakehead University 00:23:21.170 --> 00:23:25.130 is phenomenal. So I think what you do today, 00:23:25.309 --> 00:23:27.789 one of the indigenous teachings that I was taught 00:23:27.789 --> 00:23:30.609 as well was what you do today affects the next 00:23:30.609 --> 00:23:33.430 seven generations. And I truly believe that. 00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:35.970 I truly believe that. It's like skipping a stone. 00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:40.369 And so, you know, for me, leadership's always 00:23:40.369 --> 00:23:42.069 about that. It's always about servant leadership. 00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:45.849 And it's always about stepping up and providing 00:23:45.849 --> 00:23:48.569 for others. And that's honestly what fuels me. 00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:50.250 I love doing that. It's the only reason I do 00:23:50.250 --> 00:23:52.829 any of these leadership capacity positions that 00:23:52.829 --> 00:23:54.529 I take on. It's the only reason I do it. I just 00:23:54.529 --> 00:23:57.910 love doing it. So as far as the journey into 00:23:57.910 --> 00:23:59.869 law enforcement, what were the conversations 00:23:59.869 --> 00:24:02.769 as far as mental health when you first entered? 00:24:02.829 --> 00:24:06.369 And then any other areas that, you know, would 00:24:06.369 --> 00:24:10.730 be startling now listening? I think most of it 00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:13.730 would be startling now. It's startling to me 00:24:13.730 --> 00:24:18.730 when I reflect, you know, and especially retiring 00:24:18.730 --> 00:24:20.930 and having my retirement bash, you know, just 00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:23.750 in September and seeing some of the photos up 00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:27.630 there and stuff. It's unbelievable how far we 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:30.009 come in such a short period of time. There were 00:24:30.009 --> 00:24:35.230 virtually no supports for us in 1995. And it's 00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:37.490 certainly not to say that there were not good 00:24:37.490 --> 00:24:41.630 people, but there's also an expression that some 00:24:41.630 --> 00:24:44.170 people agree with, hurt people hurt people. And 00:24:44.170 --> 00:24:47.009 a lot of the times it's this lack of, like, you 00:24:47.009 --> 00:24:49.349 know, 10 years ago, even when I became president, 00:24:49.410 --> 00:24:54.140 there was a real lack of... awareness or acknowledgement. 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.200 This has really been a sort of a sliding scale, 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:01.359 a crescendo that's continuing to happen where, 00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:04.599 you know, more knowledge, more support, less 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:09.980 stigma, less judgment is sort of where we're 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:13.160 going in some areas. And in other areas, it's 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.759 actually quite regressive. And then you start 00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:18.980 talking about different things about, so when 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:23.720 you reflect in 1995 to your question, You know, 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:26.960 just the way in which, you know, I went to university. 00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:28.960 I have a degree from Lakehead University, which 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:30.799 is one of the smallest universities in the country. 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.359 It's in outdoor recreation and geography. So, 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:34.720 you know, when I went to school, I was heated 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:36.599 up by my roommate. It was an engineer and my 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.980 other one was a physical education and everyone 00:25:38.980 --> 00:25:41.119 else and stuff. But what that program taught 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:44.039 me was leadership. And but one of the things 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:46.759 that you did not do when you went to detachment 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:50.880 in 1995. Because your senior guys and guys, because 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.880 women didn't come on the OPP until 1974. So these 00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.819 guys were from the 60s. So the last thing they 00:25:56.819 --> 00:25:58.880 want to hear from you is that you went to university. 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.299 OK, that's that is just not something that you 00:26:02.299 --> 00:26:06.619 talk about. And so those sorts of things, when 00:26:06.619 --> 00:26:08.660 you flip the script today and you look at today, 00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:10.779 people are talking about, yeah, I have my master's 00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:12.680 in this and this and this and this. And they 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:14.319 can say those things and they can talk about 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:18.589 the value behind those things. You know, I'm 00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:23.250 not one that also is, I'm not a credentialist 00:26:23.250 --> 00:26:26.230 to the point where certain credentials are critical 00:26:26.230 --> 00:26:28.549 and that sort of thing. But when I was a recruit 00:26:28.549 --> 00:26:31.430 instructor in 2013 to 15, at that time, we had 00:26:31.430 --> 00:26:34.289 several members coming out of our Canadian Armed 00:26:34.289 --> 00:26:36.410 Forces that had been in Afghanistan. And they 00:26:36.410 --> 00:26:38.930 came on the Ontario Provincial Police. And I 00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:40.750 had the honour and the privilege of being there 00:26:40.750 --> 00:26:44.470 for some of them, their cadre, their recruit 00:26:44.470 --> 00:26:49.680 instructor, their sergeant. many of those men 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:52.920 and women that had joined the ranks at that time, 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.240 some went to college, some went straight out 00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:59.420 of high school into Afghanistan and the Canadian 00:26:59.420 --> 00:27:01.579 Armed Forces. And I'll tell you, and I quote 00:27:01.579 --> 00:27:04.279 my friend, Eva Olson, who's 101, who's a Holocaust 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.180 survivor, World War II. And she talks about not 00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:09.619 having education throughout her life, but she 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:13.490 goes, I have a PhD in life. And I think many 00:27:13.490 --> 00:27:15.710 of these Canadian Armed Forces, God love them, 00:27:15.809 --> 00:27:19.710 past, present and future, have a PhD in life 00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:22.529 and I would take them hands down. So I tend not 00:27:22.529 --> 00:27:24.710 to be, I tend to look at the person, what their 00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:27.529 experiences are and credentials. And that was 00:27:27.529 --> 00:27:31.369 lacking when you came on to some degree in 1995 00:27:31.369 --> 00:27:34.109 with some of the people and certainly no mental 00:27:34.109 --> 00:27:37.269 health supports. I remember, and I tend not to 00:27:37.269 --> 00:27:40.539 do. uh, trauma dumps. When I talk, I tend to 00:27:40.539 --> 00:27:43.599 talk in generalities, uh, because I never want 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:46.359 to, um, you never know what people's triggers 00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:49.259 are. So, and sometimes when you, you, you describe 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:51.640 things, maybe a little bit more specificity than 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.700 is required. So October 13th, I remember where 00:27:54.700 --> 00:27:58.640 I was and a young girl, um, was on the highway. 00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:01.799 I was, uh, was involved with an accident. She 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:03.960 died in front of me. And I remember that night 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:05.980 going home and I had just moved to London and 00:28:05.980 --> 00:28:09.380 I was, I was on the couch. I was living in one 00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:12.099 of the detective's houses and I was by myself 00:28:12.099 --> 00:28:14.720 and I was curled up in the fetal position and 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.839 watching the event on the news. And I just remember 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:22.259 I was a mess and there was, there was nothing. 00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:26.619 And, and, you know, it was just the worst thing 00:28:26.619 --> 00:28:29.440 in the world to go through. And it took me years. 00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:34.819 to come to terms with the fact that that happened. 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.279 It wasn't, and it took me a while too to realize 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:41.400 that it was also not my fault. I had nothing 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.380 to do with the situation, but I was there. And 00:28:45.380 --> 00:28:49.599 just by the mere fact that I was there, yeah, 00:28:49.740 --> 00:28:52.319 there was absolutely nothing. There was nothing 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.440 for folks like us when we came on. Now, if that 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.920 same thing happened today, there's much more. 00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:02.549 awareness, support, not to say that people always 00:29:02.549 --> 00:29:06.490 get it right, but certainly debriefings and critical 00:29:06.490 --> 00:29:09.150 resources that are available, plus all the supports 00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:11.670 that we have fought for in the association. So 00:29:11.670 --> 00:29:14.430 I mentioned that we negotiated unlimited psychological 00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:16.930 supports in 2019. We also negotiated unlimited 00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:20.720 workplace insurance. supports as well. So when 00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:22.799 you were diagnosed with PTSD, it used to be a 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.420 two -year window. We blew the doors off in 2019 00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:28.160 of that as well. And it's unlimited now. So there's, 00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:30.579 you don't have to, when you start looking at 00:29:30.579 --> 00:29:34.539 trauma and you start looking at PTSD and PTSI 00:29:34.539 --> 00:29:38.039 and OSI, TBI, whatever you want to call it, when 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.339 you start putting timelines on the recovery of 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:42.920 those injuries, it just doesn't work that way. 00:29:43.059 --> 00:29:46.539 It just doesn't. So anyways. I could go on and 00:29:46.539 --> 00:29:49.119 I certainly don't want to run on at this, but 00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.859 yeah, that's kind of where we were at in 95. 00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:56.539 And it's taken years and years and years of, 00:29:56.779 --> 00:30:00.900 you know, really in the last 10 years, some serious 00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:04.299 rolling up the sleeves and saying we need to 00:30:04.299 --> 00:30:07.220 do better. And we were in a position, I was in 00:30:07.220 --> 00:30:11.180 a position as president to... to do something 00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:13.740 really special that has just gone viral and thousands 00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:16.200 of people now have used this program and like 00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:17.940 i said it's one of the most integrated and comprehensive 00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:21.559 mental health programs uh i have seen and i know 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.500 that's a bold statement but i hope by today and 00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:27.279 talking with you other people who may be experiencing 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.180 these sorts of things in their workplaces or 00:30:30.180 --> 00:30:33.140 their whether it's suicide or trauma or mental 00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:36.559 health or whatever some of those folks might 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:38.500 be leaning into this saying, well, how did, how 00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:40.500 did they do this? How did he do this? So hopefully 00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:43.900 it helps. That's the idea. When you said her 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:46.039 people, her people, which obviously that's, that's 00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:48.200 a phrase used a lot now and, and beautifully 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.339 in the opposite of that is heal people, heal 00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:53.220 people. And I agree with that completely, but 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:57.990 that old salty generation. You know, that was 00:30:57.990 --> 00:31:00.109 the problem is I think that they were hurting 00:31:00.109 --> 00:31:02.049 themselves. You know, like you mentioned, a lot 00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:04.710 of a lot of our predecessors were Vietnam era, 00:31:04.809 --> 00:31:07.410 for example. So if they had served, they're bringing 00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:09.130 all that back now, then they're going to become 00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:12.009 a cop or a firefighter. And it's it's left unaddressed. 00:31:12.569 --> 00:31:14.829 Then you have the pendulum swing all the way 00:31:14.829 --> 00:31:17.990 the other way where you've got paper tigers in 00:31:17.990 --> 00:31:20.130 these positions now and all they want is degrees. 00:31:20.509 --> 00:31:22.690 And I think that, you know, where we need to 00:31:22.690 --> 00:31:24.910 be is in the middle. Just like you said, of course, 00:31:24.950 --> 00:31:28.410 you know. Promoting education is an absolute 00:31:28.410 --> 00:31:30.410 must. Now, it would be great to have degrees 00:31:30.410 --> 00:31:33.309 that really added value to our professions rather 00:31:33.309 --> 00:31:36.450 than business administration or whatever. The 00:31:36.450 --> 00:31:39.309 thing is, it's a vague, vague relationship at 00:31:39.309 --> 00:31:43.430 best, but also really valuing that hands -on 00:31:43.430 --> 00:31:46.430 experience, that leadership, that ability to 00:31:46.430 --> 00:31:48.750 work in a team, the problem solving, all these 00:31:48.750 --> 00:31:52.289 actual... attributes that we need rather than 00:31:52.289 --> 00:31:54.869 just saying either A, like you said, you need 00:31:54.869 --> 00:31:58.130 to be a salty World War II veteran, or you need 00:31:58.130 --> 00:32:00.029 to have a master's degree to be a leader. And 00:32:00.029 --> 00:32:02.490 I think that middle ground hopefully is where 00:32:02.490 --> 00:32:06.269 the pendulum will rest. Yeah, I think that's 00:32:06.269 --> 00:32:09.549 a point really well taken. And I think that's 00:32:09.549 --> 00:32:13.390 where, when you look at where we are at today 00:32:13.390 --> 00:32:15.269 and how far we have come, and I'm specifically 00:32:15.269 --> 00:32:18.490 talking about our organization, we have the commissioner 00:32:18.490 --> 00:32:21.799 of our When Commissioner Thomas Carrick, who's 00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:23.619 the president of the Canadian Association of 00:32:23.619 --> 00:32:25.299 Chiefs of Police, he's the top cop in the country, 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.339 he became our commissioner in 2019. And I found 00:32:28.339 --> 00:32:32.960 that, and I've been very public about that, coming 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:34.779 in 10 years ago, part of the problem too, and 00:32:34.779 --> 00:32:38.819 there are some that may not like what I say right 00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:40.279 now, and there's some that have not liked what 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:42.119 I say in the past, but it's okay. I came from 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.019 the outside after the scandal in 2015. I never 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:47.079 really talked about this stuff before because... 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:50.759 I had my head down trying to lead us out of the 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:52.680 depths of the organization that we were in. When 00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:55.359 I started 10 years ago, negotiations had been 00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:57.880 broken down. Benefits had been broken down. We 00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:59.680 had no relationship with our commissioner and 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:01.920 senior leaders, none. We had no relationships 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:03.740 with our premier, which is like your governor, 00:33:03.859 --> 00:33:07.700 and senior leaders and bureaucrats in the government 00:33:07.700 --> 00:33:10.880 at the time, none. Our membership had zero trust 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.519 in their association and rightly so. So walking 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.700 in, we had no strategic plan for the last, I 00:33:15.700 --> 00:33:17.859 walk in on day one, I said, I said to Leanna, 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.059 who's the executive assistant to the board and 00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:21.599 the president, who's an awesome human being. 00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:24.079 I said, do you have your strategic plan? I can't 00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:27.519 find it on the website. And it's like, now just 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:29.700 imagine, this is the largest police union in 00:33:29.700 --> 00:33:32.720 the country, right? With tens of millions of 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:37.059 dollars in assets, 6 ,000 uniform members, 4 00:33:37.059 --> 00:33:39.660 ,000 civilian members of law enforcement, 5 ,000 00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:42.880 retirees, 1 ,000 surviving family members. And 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.359 the most recent strategic plan we had was from 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:48.539 eight years prior. Eight years. Where's your 00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:50.839 roadmap? What are you doing? So for me, coming 00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.000 into an organization, it had some really, really 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.839 amazing people in the organization. We just had 00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.559 to put it all together and to lead it. And where 00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.180 we are today is night and day. But having said 00:34:01.180 --> 00:34:04.599 that, it was a hell of an undertaking and being 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:07.099 elected twice. And then with five years, I would 00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:08.699 have loved to have continued on in the position. 00:34:09.179 --> 00:34:11.840 But, you know, it had to it had to go to somebody 00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:17.429 else. So, yeah, no, it's it's just. You know, 00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:20.289 to kind of get back to your question there, finding 00:34:20.289 --> 00:34:24.469 that middle is, I think, and I was talking about 00:34:24.469 --> 00:34:26.110 how the commissioner had come in, sorry, I don't 00:34:26.110 --> 00:34:29.670 mean to digress, is he had the mindset at the 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:34.989 time. He was the type, we had gone through five 00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:39.269 commissioners in six to seven months from the 00:34:39.269 --> 00:34:42.909 time of the summer of 2018 in August slash September. 00:34:43.559 --> 00:34:46.000 When I was president, three members of the Ontario 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:49.320 Provincial Police died by suicide. We went through 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:51.719 five commissioners from that time until April. 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.019 OK, so you can imagine that's taken the last 00:34:57.019 --> 00:35:00.119 three years to get our association sort of up 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.599 and running and leading and bringing depth and 00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:04.940 services. And we still had a lot more work to 00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:08.119 do because the association was in such a tough 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:12.360 spot at the time. And our primary goal and role. 00:35:13.050 --> 00:35:15.389 is to provide support, leadership, and services 00:35:15.389 --> 00:35:17.710 to the people that we represent. So how do you 00:35:17.710 --> 00:35:19.309 do that? And the other thing I said is there 00:35:19.309 --> 00:35:21.409 was a ton of conflict. We had over a hundred 00:35:21.409 --> 00:35:24.590 grievances when traditionally we would have a 00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:27.690 handful. So there was all kinds of internal conflict 00:35:27.690 --> 00:35:30.389 and it just tore me up because I'm like, this 00:35:30.389 --> 00:35:33.989 is not what we should be doing. So I brought 00:35:33.989 --> 00:35:35.829 this different approach where I want to work, 00:35:35.989 --> 00:35:39.389 not like this, not like this. I want the union. 00:35:39.590 --> 00:35:42.670 I want the people running the organization. We 00:35:42.670 --> 00:35:46.469 need to have these relationships because at the 00:35:46.469 --> 00:35:48.469 end of the day, we both have the privilege to 00:35:48.469 --> 00:35:51.949 serve the same people and we have to get it right. 00:35:52.510 --> 00:35:54.429 Because when we don't get it right and if we're 00:35:54.429 --> 00:35:56.150 not talking to each other, I would rather be 00:35:56.150 --> 00:35:58.489 on the inside of the boardroom than be on the 00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:01.809 outside of the boardroom looking in. And I asked 00:36:01.809 --> 00:36:03.449 our people, I said, listen, I came in from the 00:36:03.449 --> 00:36:05.210 outside. There was a lot of people there that 00:36:05.210 --> 00:36:06.510 have been in the association for a long period 00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:10.279 of time. I said, trust me on this approach. And 00:36:10.279 --> 00:36:12.219 that's where we went. And it took a lot of work 00:36:12.219 --> 00:36:14.920 to sort of change the way in which we act, reason, 00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:18.079 and conclude. And we too have to come to the 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.650 table. We too have to be accountable. And that's 00:36:21.650 --> 00:36:23.010 what we did. And you should see where we are 00:36:23.010 --> 00:36:26.449 today. We've come light years and we have incredible 00:36:26.449 --> 00:36:28.690 supports and services. But finding that middle 00:36:28.690 --> 00:36:31.090 ground, a lot of that was done through hard work 00:36:31.090 --> 00:36:32.989 with our organization. But it was also done through 00:36:32.989 --> 00:36:35.150 the leadership of the commissioner that finally 00:36:35.150 --> 00:36:38.269 came in April of 2019 by the name of Thomas Carrick. 00:36:38.449 --> 00:36:41.489 And his focus was primarily the mental health 00:36:41.489 --> 00:36:43.610 and well -being of our people. And I felt, thank 00:36:43.610 --> 00:36:46.090 God I have somebody that I have a dance partner 00:36:46.090 --> 00:36:50.659 because I need one. You're talking about a mental 00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:53.539 health crisis in the worst time in the worst 00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:56.699 history of the Ontario Provincial Police, which 00:36:56.699 --> 00:36:59.400 goes, which was well in excess of 100 years, 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:03.420 you know, and so it needed to be addressed. It 00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:06.119 was a very scary time. It was a lonely time. 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:09.400 And I just remember hearing about the third officer 00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:11.440 that died by suicide. I was in Ottawa at the 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:15.260 time with my vice president. And I had to, I 00:37:15.260 --> 00:37:17.320 then went back to the hotel. I said to the guys 00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.420 on the board. Someone has to speak. I don't mind 00:37:20.420 --> 00:37:23.820 if I want to do it. And I penned a letter, which 00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:27.559 is in the book that I wrote. And it went out 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:29.139 to all the members. I was doing media and we 00:37:29.139 --> 00:37:32.059 were starting to talk about the stigma associated 00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:35.300 with it and, you know, mental health and suicide 00:37:35.300 --> 00:37:37.119 and everything else. And it just started this 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:39.860 huge wave. And it ended with a promise that we 00:37:39.860 --> 00:37:43.719 would deliver and do more for the people that 00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:46.119 deserve it. And that's where the Encompass Mental 00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:50.190 Health Program began. And without going into 00:37:50.190 --> 00:37:52.969 all that, I guess I would just leave that with 00:37:52.969 --> 00:37:55.110 you. And obviously, I know you want to explore 00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:57.489 it some more, but that's kind of where that whole 00:37:57.489 --> 00:38:00.329 concept came from. And there's a lot of people 00:38:00.329 --> 00:38:02.329 who deserve a lot of credit for providing me 00:38:02.329 --> 00:38:05.070 the inspiration to come up with some of these 00:38:05.070 --> 00:38:09.829 ideas. I had an interview that I'm actually putting 00:38:09.829 --> 00:38:13.070 out today as we're recording this with Doug Orchard. 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:16.719 And he is a documentary filmmaker, done some 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:20.699 incredible films. And his latest one is on private 00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:25.300 equity firms, basically dipping into government 00:38:25.300 --> 00:38:27.480 pensions. So, you know, state, city, county, 00:38:27.699 --> 00:38:31.880 federal, and using that money to do all kinds 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:33.639 of things to make themselves more money and at 00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:36.780 the same time charging fees and so reducing these 00:38:36.780 --> 00:38:39.659 pensions. And what he said is there are unions. 00:38:40.349 --> 00:38:43.110 that are taking money from lobbyists to allow 00:38:43.110 --> 00:38:45.849 them to do this. And you use the word trust. 00:38:46.110 --> 00:38:48.329 At the moment, one of the things that really 00:38:48.329 --> 00:38:52.190 angers me is we have a national union here, IAFF, 00:38:52.429 --> 00:38:55.730 and there's a new administration now, but they've 00:38:55.730 --> 00:38:58.429 been in for, I think, three, four years now. 00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:02.789 The current one... works in a city that works 00:39:02.789 --> 00:39:05.809 24 72 so 42 hour work week and there has been 00:39:05.809 --> 00:39:08.489 zero conversation about why doesn't the rest 00:39:08.489 --> 00:39:11.030 of the country work the same thing so you're 00:39:11.030 --> 00:39:14.369 hearing all these you know stories about the 00:39:14.369 --> 00:39:16.849 human beings that are in this position i want 00:39:16.849 --> 00:39:19.530 to be very clear i believe 100 in the union philosophy 00:39:19.530 --> 00:39:21.869 i paid my jews the whole time i was wearing a 00:39:21.869 --> 00:39:25.760 uniform but As you seem to get higher up, it 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:28.440 becomes politics and you seem to lose the very 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:30.219 mission that you're supposed to be there for, 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:32.840 which is the benefit of the people. So with that 00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:34.820 all being said, obviously, that's my experience 00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:37.639 of the fireside and this pension thing that I'm 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:41.039 just about to release. When you reflect back 00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:44.860 now, what was that downward spiral of the previous 00:39:44.860 --> 00:39:49.199 union that you had that literally resulted in 00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:55.360 criminal arrests? cautionary tale, what would 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.780 you tell people to make sure that didn't happen? 00:39:57.940 --> 00:40:02.139 Were there any red flags as they were not acting 00:40:02.139 --> 00:40:04.800 ethically, even though they were representing, 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:06.880 as you said, thousands and thousands of people? 00:40:08.500 --> 00:40:11.820 Well, that's quite a question. And I think it's 00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:15.280 very, I think your question is spot on. I'm always 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.480 cautious, especially when I became president. 00:40:18.110 --> 00:40:19.889 There was a lot of different investigations. 00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:22.030 It was obviously internal investigations to look 00:40:22.030 --> 00:40:25.550 at process, policies, procedures. There was a 00:40:25.550 --> 00:40:27.650 criminal investigation by the National Police 00:40:27.650 --> 00:40:31.989 Force, the RCMP, who actually unionized after 00:40:31.989 --> 00:40:35.050 us. We supported them in that. And so they then 00:40:35.050 --> 00:40:38.389 took the mantle of the largest in the country. 00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:44.079 I've always I've always steered away from from 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:47.300 some of that stuff only because when I talk about 00:40:47.300 --> 00:40:50.880 what it is that I inherited, I say this is what 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.039 this is how I led. And I talk about that in the 00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:56.559 book as well. So I'll give you an example. So 00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:00.380 on day one, I arrive and it's your typical president's 00:41:00.380 --> 00:41:03.119 office. It's it's your it's the biggest office. 00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:05.280 It's got the nicest views. It's got you know, 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.059 you go in and there's tables and, you know, all 00:41:07.059 --> 00:41:10.349 that sort of stuff. And and. and for me i don't 00:41:10.349 --> 00:41:12.769 really care about stuff like that and i really 00:41:12.769 --> 00:41:17.349 think the biggest thing where people can learn 00:41:17.349 --> 00:41:22.289 is if you're the power of the board of directors 00:41:22.289 --> 00:41:27.050 so the so the president is uh in a not -for -profit 00:41:27.050 --> 00:41:29.210 corporation the president is the spokesperson 00:41:29.210 --> 00:41:31.949 for the board of directors so the board always 00:41:31.949 --> 00:41:38.019 has it within their power to come together and 00:41:38.019 --> 00:41:41.039 have those conversations about the direction 00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:45.880 and things that are happening. And so where I 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.300 come from, on day one, which was yesterday, 10 00:41:49.300 --> 00:41:51.480 years ago, I walk into the office. I hadn't been 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.719 in the office in, oh, maybe 12 years or so. I 00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:57.800 was a complete outsider. So for me to come into 00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.019 an organization, and I kind of alluded to it 00:42:00.019 --> 00:42:02.340 earlier, is that for me, it's never about blame. 00:42:02.889 --> 00:42:04.969 I'm not one of those guys that I think we could 00:42:04.969 --> 00:42:06.590 run around and blame all kinds of people for 00:42:06.590 --> 00:42:08.929 all kinds of things. For me, it's about, OK, 00:42:09.030 --> 00:42:11.489 now we have to prioritize these things that have 00:42:11.489 --> 00:42:13.230 been made aware that have been brought to my 00:42:13.230 --> 00:42:15.150 attention. We're going to get to them. There's 00:42:15.150 --> 00:42:16.949 deficits and we're going to fix those things. 00:42:17.949 --> 00:42:20.190 Just imagine walking in on day one and I come 00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:22.690 into my office. Leanna's showing me around and 00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:27.309 my desk is just full of gifts. There's maple 00:42:27.309 --> 00:42:29.829 syrup wrapped in birch bark. There's Mont Blanc 00:42:29.829 --> 00:42:32.630 pens. There's tickets to the Jays games. There's 00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:34.690 all this stuff. And I said, what is all this 00:42:34.690 --> 00:42:37.429 stuff? Well, that's all the stuff that's come 00:42:37.429 --> 00:42:42.030 in for you. And I said, well, I said, that's 00:42:42.030 --> 00:42:45.170 not happening. So we ended up getting rid of 00:42:45.170 --> 00:42:47.110 that stuff and sending a message that that type 00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:51.230 of culture. So I would say this. I would say, 00:42:51.269 --> 00:42:54.489 if you truly are there for the people and you're 00:42:54.489 --> 00:42:58.019 a servant leader, It's not about that shit. It's 00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:01.880 about being entrusted, being put in by people 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:05.860 who are relying on you to provide support, leadership, 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:10.260 and services at people's most dire times. And 00:43:10.260 --> 00:43:13.699 it's not about you. And so when I get in there, 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:16.800 I clean that off. Then it became, okay, now we 00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:18.380 have to pick which vehicle we're going to drive. 00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:21.280 Okay, well, I don't need anything fancy, right? 00:43:22.889 --> 00:43:24.489 Give me something that's... I ended up driving 00:43:24.489 --> 00:43:26.510 a Jeep Cherokee, which is a nice enough vehicle, 00:43:26.789 --> 00:43:29.769 but it wasn't the excesses of driving like an 00:43:29.769 --> 00:43:31.570 Escalade or something like that. I don't want 00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:33.750 any of that stuff. So I really think it starts 00:43:33.750 --> 00:43:38.070 with everything that you do from the top. How 00:43:38.070 --> 00:43:40.090 do you emulate that stuff? How do you hold yourself 00:43:40.090 --> 00:43:43.829 accountable? How do you... Never forget from 00:43:43.829 --> 00:43:45.889 where it is that you've come from. And I credit 00:43:45.889 --> 00:43:47.909 my parents. I credit my Indigenous teachings. 00:43:48.070 --> 00:43:50.590 I credit growing up in a small town. I credit 00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:52.989 the oath that I took when I became a police officer. 00:43:53.110 --> 00:43:57.730 And I've never forgot it. And it took a lot sometimes 00:43:57.730 --> 00:44:01.690 to change some of that culture. And these are 00:44:01.690 --> 00:44:03.489 things I've never talked about before. And these 00:44:03.489 --> 00:44:05.590 are things that I had to bury deep inside me 00:44:05.590 --> 00:44:08.190 that, quite frankly, pissed me off. But they 00:44:08.190 --> 00:44:11.429 also fueled me because I knew that the membership... 00:44:11.849 --> 00:44:14.610 and I'm talking in generalities, were screaming 00:44:14.610 --> 00:44:17.090 and crying out for ethical leadership. And it 00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:20.690 took time. And it took a lot of people that would 00:44:20.690 --> 00:44:22.690 write in and say, I think this is the worst place. 00:44:22.750 --> 00:44:24.309 I think you're all this. I think you're all that. 00:44:24.329 --> 00:44:27.110 The typical types of things that you would expect 00:44:27.110 --> 00:44:29.289 that probably would come in. And in some ways, 00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:32.250 you know, I kept saying to people, just give 00:44:32.250 --> 00:44:34.010 us a chance. Just let us work through this. Let 00:44:34.010 --> 00:44:35.909 us get through this. And we had to start prioritizing 00:44:35.909 --> 00:44:38.750 all the things. One of the first things we did. 00:44:39.599 --> 00:44:41.400 to kind of tie in with things. And I know your 00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:45.940 question, it's more so how we moved forward and 00:44:45.940 --> 00:44:49.300 why we're successful. And this is my leadership 00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:55.420 style is, you know, I went down to Dallas to 00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:57.639 pay respects to the five officers that were murdered 00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.840 down there. And I flew down with my vice president 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:05.710 and I wore a suit. And we were in a church, one 00:45:05.710 --> 00:45:07.929 of the churches there. It was hot. I remember 00:45:07.929 --> 00:45:10.690 it was 100 degrees. And we were in Dallas. And 00:45:10.690 --> 00:45:14.630 I thought to myself, it always bothered me. So 00:45:14.630 --> 00:45:16.949 some of the things that when you have a platform, 00:45:17.230 --> 00:45:20.489 when you do things for the good, I used to always 00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:22.869 see our association wearing suits to funerals 00:45:22.869 --> 00:45:24.690 and memorials and stuff like that because they 00:45:24.690 --> 00:45:27.769 were separate. They were union. And I never agreed 00:45:27.769 --> 00:45:31.170 with that. I just don't. And I have friends of 00:45:31.170 --> 00:45:33.070 mine who were presidents of other police unions 00:45:33.070 --> 00:45:35.590 that wear suits at these events. And I love and 00:45:35.590 --> 00:45:38.050 respect them, but we respectfully disagree on 00:45:38.050 --> 00:45:40.769 this issue. And I said to our board at the time, 00:45:40.789 --> 00:45:42.909 I had to go to a funeral, an RCMP officer out 00:45:42.909 --> 00:45:45.530 West. And I was in a suit because you're not 00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:47.110 allowed to march with those that are in uniform. 00:45:47.570 --> 00:45:50.110 And I was at the ass end of the line. And I remember 00:45:50.110 --> 00:45:51.929 I could hardly see the police officers at the 00:45:51.929 --> 00:45:54.550 front. And it was the worst feeling in the world. 00:45:54.570 --> 00:45:56.329 And we had OPP officers that were there wearing 00:45:56.329 --> 00:45:58.969 their number ones. And I just, I went back to 00:45:58.969 --> 00:46:01.670 the board and I said, I didn't want to go in 00:46:01.670 --> 00:46:06.269 a suit to begin with. And so there was this reluctance 00:46:06.269 --> 00:46:10.050 a little bit because of the past not to let the 00:46:10.050 --> 00:46:16.010 current president lead. Okay. And it got to a 00:46:16.010 --> 00:46:20.289 point where I said, we have a National Peace 00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:22.449 and Police Officer Memorial in Ottawa every year, 00:46:22.469 --> 00:46:25.389 every September. I said, I am going to that. 00:46:25.900 --> 00:46:29.400 in my number one dress. And it's the way we are 00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:31.800 going to pay our respects to the survivors of 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:35.159 law enforcement. And we want to represent, and 00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:40.019 on that day, we are police officers. And I was 00:46:40.019 --> 00:46:43.320 met with some pretty interesting conversations. 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:47.519 And I remember saying to the one guy, and I said, 00:46:47.619 --> 00:46:49.519 I'm going in my number one dress. And he looks 00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:51.059 at me and he says, well, how are we going to 00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:56.940 look? I said, underdressed. It was amazing. The 00:46:56.940 --> 00:46:59.360 whole board came together. We wore our number 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.239 one dress, except for our civilian member of 00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:02.780 law enforcement, who actually is the president 00:47:02.780 --> 00:47:06.980 right now. And he was fully supportive. And so 00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:11.460 I guess what I'm getting at is, is that you can 00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:13.360 look at some of the lessons, not only in the 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:17.059 OPP Association, but elsewhere, never forgetting 00:47:17.059 --> 00:47:20.400 the people that put you in these positions. And 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.340 quite frankly, using that platform especially 00:47:23.340 --> 00:47:26.320 me who was on the road as a supervisor who was 00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:29.860 you know getting in shit from a command member 00:47:29.860 --> 00:47:32.780 the month before that because me and my platoon 00:47:32.780 --> 00:47:35.800 didn't have our hats on at some point and next 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:37.340 thing you know I'm flying around the province 00:47:37.340 --> 00:47:39.960 with the commissioner that's very same person 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:44.320 and other executive members and you know she 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:48.579 was nice as could be to me and it just kind of 00:47:48.579 --> 00:47:50.719 touches on sanctuary trauma a little bit but 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:54.469 it But it's a reminder that just stay true to 00:47:54.469 --> 00:47:57.510 who you are, who put you there and continue to 00:47:57.510 --> 00:48:00.449 fight and fill those gaps of leadership. Because 00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:02.250 at the end of the day, your job is to provide 00:48:02.250 --> 00:48:04.849 support, leadership and services and respect, 00:48:04.989 --> 00:48:07.010 especially to those people who have paid the 00:48:07.010 --> 00:48:13.440 ultimate sacrifice. You mentioned about having 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.699 to rebuild relationships. Obviously, they were 00:48:15.699 --> 00:48:19.980 looking for commissioners. You had that revolving 00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:23.380 door at that one point. Where I've seen incredible 00:48:23.380 --> 00:48:26.260 progress in physical and mental health within 00:48:26.260 --> 00:48:28.559 fire departments is when that communication has 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.760 been forged. So Pasco County, Plano, Texas, some 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:35.500 good examples. Talk to me about how you were 00:48:35.500 --> 00:48:38.039 able to rebuild not only the trust within your 00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:40.599 own union, but also the interactions with all 00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:43.179 these other politicians and entities that you 00:48:43.179 --> 00:48:46.179 had to have a good relationship with so that 00:48:46.179 --> 00:48:48.639 you could actually move these conversations forward. 00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:54.320 It's a really good question. So in 2012 to 2014, 00:48:54.579 --> 00:48:56.420 I was the president of the Alumni Association 00:48:56.420 --> 00:48:58.460 for Lakehead University. So representing about 00:48:58.460 --> 00:49:01.139 60 ,000 people. So I've always been around politics. 00:49:01.340 --> 00:49:03.880 I follow it. I follow American politics. I follow 00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:05.880 Canadian politics. I'll bounce around all different 00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:08.900 channels to try to find the truth. And it's just 00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:12.300 something that I always enjoy. And it's always 00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:14.000 something that I've, you know, there's things, 00:49:14.139 --> 00:49:16.340 there's always areas of opportunity, but I've 00:49:16.340 --> 00:49:20.769 always been really, really good at engaging with 00:49:20.769 --> 00:49:23.409 stakeholders that's that's my strength so getting 00:49:23.409 --> 00:49:26.989 and understanding the value of having those relationships 00:49:26.989 --> 00:49:30.730 number one and who in fact you need to have those 00:49:30.730 --> 00:49:33.989 relationships with and also prioritizing and 00:49:33.989 --> 00:49:37.150 understanding what it is that you need to accomplish 00:49:37.150 --> 00:49:39.489 and how you can leverage those relationships 00:49:39.489 --> 00:49:41.670 with those specific people to get to where you 00:49:41.670 --> 00:49:44.429 need to go so when we when i first was elected 00:49:44.429 --> 00:49:48.050 we the liberals were in power and policing was 00:49:48.050 --> 00:49:51.760 not a priority for the government at the time. 00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:53.699 Although the minister of labor, Kevin Flynn, 00:49:53.860 --> 00:49:59.679 he was pro presumptive legislation. He was actually 00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:03.099 really, really quite good. And I very much enjoyed 00:50:03.099 --> 00:50:05.840 his support and working with him and all the 00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:08.300 other people. But, but as far as policing, that 00:50:08.300 --> 00:50:10.219 was at the time when, you know, there was a lot 00:50:10.219 --> 00:50:15.269 of. You know, there's a lot of activism in the 00:50:15.269 --> 00:50:17.909 United States, in Canada, and much of what happens 00:50:17.909 --> 00:50:20.010 in the United States comes across the border. 00:50:20.070 --> 00:50:23.969 Much of what we are exposed to here is American 00:50:23.969 --> 00:50:26.250 news and issues. So whatever's happening in the 00:50:26.250 --> 00:50:29.449 United States, we're not numb to it here. We 00:50:29.449 --> 00:50:32.469 see it. It happens. So policing was very much 00:50:32.469 --> 00:50:38.599 in the crosshairs of much criticism. Much of 00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:40.199 the way that we interacted with the public was 00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:42.800 under scrutiny. And it was very much an activist 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:45.840 government. So we tried to carve out the best 00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.880 relationship that we could with someone that 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.579 we knew, quite frankly, outside of the mental 00:50:52.579 --> 00:50:54.199 health and well -being of our people with presumptive 00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:57.059 legislation, whether it was intelligence -led 00:50:57.059 --> 00:50:58.800 policing and street checks and all these sorts 00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.000 of things. We knew that. So it was very frustrating. 00:51:02.099 --> 00:51:04.880 So we did the best we could. The premier now, 00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:07.099 who's been the premier since he came in in 2018, 00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.840 Doug Ford, they came in with a much different 00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.659 approach to policing where not only was the law 00:51:13.659 --> 00:51:15.860 enforcement profession much more respected, so 00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:19.239 philosophically, it became much easier. So just 00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:23.559 strengthening those relationships, creating and 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:25.780 strengthening those relationships, taking your 00:51:25.780 --> 00:51:28.500 priorities. And then with the internal side of 00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:31.769 the house, the question that you asked is. I 00:51:31.769 --> 00:51:35.369 remember coming in 10 years ago and things were 00:51:35.369 --> 00:51:41.190 so bad that, you know, it was quite frosty. And 00:51:41.190 --> 00:51:42.989 I think that the current commissioner of the 00:51:42.989 --> 00:51:46.969 day would agree. And I actually appreciate why 00:51:46.969 --> 00:51:49.489 he would feel the way that he felt, quite honestly. 00:51:50.210 --> 00:51:54.250 And so we had to really work at things and talk 00:51:54.250 --> 00:51:55.469 about some of the things. So I'll give you an 00:51:55.469 --> 00:52:00.960 example. So the hearing decisions. So, for example, 00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:02.500 under the Police Services Act, the former Police 00:52:02.500 --> 00:52:05.239 Services Act, and I'll try to be as succinct 00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:07.980 as possible for you as I can with this because 00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:10.360 I could talk forever about it. But when an officer 00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:11.960 gets in trouble under the Police Services Act 00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:13.659 from internal affairs and a charge is laid and 00:52:13.659 --> 00:52:16.039 they're held accountable, if they decide to fight 00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:18.559 that charge, it goes before a hearing officer. 00:52:18.860 --> 00:52:21.900 That hearing officer is someone who is appointed 00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:26.079 by a police service, usually retired, as an adjudicator. 00:52:26.860 --> 00:52:29.360 And it's, you know, it's just like a court trial. 00:52:29.789 --> 00:52:32.130 But it's a hearing decision, basically on labor 00:52:32.130 --> 00:52:35.630 law. You come in. The OPP's position on that 00:52:35.630 --> 00:52:39.210 has always been, whatever happens, that hearing 00:52:39.210 --> 00:52:42.650 disposition gets posted on the intranet. So all 00:52:42.650 --> 00:52:46.050 10 ,000 members of the Ontario Provincial Police 00:52:46.050 --> 00:52:48.349 on a two in the morning, wherever they are in 00:52:48.349 --> 00:52:50.449 the province, can go on there and read about 00:52:50.449 --> 00:52:52.530 Rob Jamison and da -da -da -da -da -da and all 00:52:52.530 --> 00:52:55.889 the other people associated with stuff. And it 00:52:55.889 --> 00:53:01.110 stayed on there for 10 years. 10 years. Some 00:53:01.110 --> 00:53:03.909 services put theirs on the internet so you can 00:53:03.909 --> 00:53:05.969 go on there and millions of people can go and 00:53:05.969 --> 00:53:08.590 look at it and it's there in perpetuity. I have 00:53:08.590 --> 00:53:10.789 a huge issue with that. I don't think we start 00:53:10.789 --> 00:53:14.329 talking about shaming people. Shame is one of 00:53:14.329 --> 00:53:17.869 the critical pieces and judgment is one of the 00:53:17.869 --> 00:53:20.809 critical pieces when you start looking at declining 00:53:20.809 --> 00:53:23.349 mental health and well -being of our people. 00:53:23.750 --> 00:53:27.369 And so just imagine. Where I'm tying it into 00:53:27.369 --> 00:53:28.670 the first commissioner, I said to him, I said, 00:53:28.690 --> 00:53:31.730 we need a few wins. Throw me something. What 00:53:31.730 --> 00:53:33.289 are we doing here? Let's have this conversation. 00:53:33.849 --> 00:53:35.989 So he agreed at the time to take that 10 years 00:53:35.989 --> 00:53:37.769 and move it down to five years. So all those 00:53:37.769 --> 00:53:40.010 people that were from five to 10 years were now 00:53:40.010 --> 00:53:43.309 gone. 99 % of the people that are on those hearing 00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:45.809 decisions still remain as our employees. It's 00:53:45.809 --> 00:53:47.809 not like you're firing all those people. So these 00:53:47.809 --> 00:53:49.409 are people that are still within your employ 00:53:49.409 --> 00:53:53.989 for the next five, 10, 15, 20, 25 years. So it's 00:53:53.989 --> 00:53:56.769 in your best interest, you know. And I would 00:53:56.769 --> 00:53:58.329 always come back to this. It's a philosophy. 00:53:59.070 --> 00:54:01.190 I don't have a problem holding myself accountable 00:54:01.190 --> 00:54:02.809 or someone holding me accountable if that's the 00:54:02.809 --> 00:54:07.389 case. But it's in the how we do it. And I fundamentally 00:54:07.389 --> 00:54:09.309 disagree with this. And there's the odd person 00:54:09.309 --> 00:54:11.329 that, you know, there's a retired adjudicator 00:54:11.329 --> 00:54:13.309 that was, I ran into him in the grocery store 00:54:13.309 --> 00:54:17.329 recently. Good guy. And he vehemently disagrees 00:54:17.329 --> 00:54:20.210 with the fact that I reduced all that stuff. 00:54:21.050 --> 00:54:22.989 And I said to him, I said, just imagine your 00:54:22.989 --> 00:54:28.019 house, James. You have a house, and here's the 00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:30.420 street, and here's the sidewalk, and there's 00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:33.559 the walkway to your house. And your husband, 00:54:33.619 --> 00:54:36.199 wife, and you have two children, and they're 00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:38.940 young. And your youngest child, who's nine years 00:54:38.940 --> 00:54:42.480 of age, does something really bad. You take out 00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:44.940 a two -sided sign. You pound it in, just like 00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:49.300 an election sign, on your lawn. On the one side, 00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:52.320 it says, this is what Rob did. On the other side, 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.869 the exact same thing. So every day. That that 00:54:54.869 --> 00:54:57.610 child has to go to school. He has to go by that 00:54:57.610 --> 00:55:00.210 sign and see exactly what he did a year ago, 00:55:00.269 --> 00:55:03.030 five years ago, nine years ago. Everybody that 00:55:03.030 --> 00:55:05.289 walks up to that house sees that sign on the 00:55:05.289 --> 00:55:07.369 way in and on the way out. Everybody that walks 00:55:07.369 --> 00:55:10.250 by that sidewalk sees what that says from five 00:55:10.250 --> 00:55:12.349 years ago, 10 years ago. Everyone that drives 00:55:12.349 --> 00:55:14.949 by gets to see this thing. So you start asking 00:55:14.949 --> 00:55:17.940 yourself, you start asking yourself. How do we 00:55:17.940 --> 00:55:19.800 move forward as an organization with the health 00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:22.059 and well -being of our people when we are shaming 00:55:22.059 --> 00:55:23.840 people? So it's interesting. When I was in charge 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:27.400 of negotiations in 2019, we had a really good 00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:31.699 relationship and kind of ties in with we had 00:55:31.699 --> 00:55:33.400 we had everything. Everything's been firing on 00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:35.440 all cylinders for a while now because we managed 00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:39.059 to I get that stuff and our team gets that stuff 00:55:39.059 --> 00:55:42.820 and they appreciate it. And we went into negotiations 00:55:42.820 --> 00:55:44.579 for the first time with the new government and 00:55:44.579 --> 00:55:46.139 they said, OK, we're ready to go. And I said, 00:55:46.179 --> 00:55:49.690 well, I'm not. And they're like, well, what's 00:55:49.690 --> 00:55:51.869 wrong? And I said, I thought we were good. I 00:55:51.869 --> 00:55:55.409 said, we are good. I have nothing but respect 00:55:55.409 --> 00:55:57.349 for you guys. Love you guys. And the same for 00:55:57.349 --> 00:55:59.610 us. But I need something from you. There's no 00:55:59.610 --> 00:56:01.550 sense being friends unless we can give each other 00:56:01.550 --> 00:56:04.190 something, right? I said, I'm not prepared to 00:56:04.190 --> 00:56:06.630 negotiate with you until you do what? I said, 00:56:06.670 --> 00:56:09.230 get rid of those names and those hearing decisions. 00:56:09.530 --> 00:56:11.630 Just get rid of them. Anonymize it. Tell the 00:56:11.630 --> 00:56:15.090 story. without having to shame the individual. 00:56:15.329 --> 00:56:17.590 So people can go on there and have a look at 00:56:17.590 --> 00:56:22.489 the behavior and say, if I do this, this is the 00:56:22.489 --> 00:56:25.110 result. And they said, you want that? I said, 00:56:25.150 --> 00:56:27.670 you give me that. We can then start having negotiations. 00:56:27.750 --> 00:56:29.769 They went off, they came back. I forget it was 00:56:29.769 --> 00:56:32.429 an hour later. You got it. This is something 00:56:32.429 --> 00:56:36.469 that the union had fought for, for, I don't know. 00:56:36.730 --> 00:56:40.929 10, 15, 20 years with no success. So it's that 00:56:40.929 --> 00:56:44.329 whole philosophical change of working with the 00:56:44.329 --> 00:56:46.650 stakeholders. It's that whole philosophical change 00:56:46.650 --> 00:56:50.130 of having those relationships with the people 00:56:50.130 --> 00:56:51.969 who have the power and authority and responsibility, 00:56:52.269 --> 00:56:54.909 which ones, and then prioritizing and keeping 00:56:54.909 --> 00:56:57.289 in your mind. And with a valid strategic plan, 00:56:57.409 --> 00:57:00.889 which then we brought in from 2017 to 2022, we 00:57:00.889 --> 00:57:04.010 fixed that one as well. And we were off to the 00:57:04.010 --> 00:57:06.719 races. So it's multifaceted. And it's really 00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:08.400 knowing who's who and it's really knowing what 00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:10.760 it is that your membership needs and why they 00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:15.300 put you there. You mentioned about your kind 00:57:15.300 --> 00:57:19.519 of mental health downward spiral at 2020. When 00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.320 you reflect back now, what was some of the calls, 00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.860 warning signs, events prior to that? And then 00:57:25.860 --> 00:57:29.179 let's talk about that first time that you put 00:57:29.179 --> 00:57:32.719 your hand up and truly ask for help. That's a 00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:35.550 great question. It's one that I'm... It's one 00:57:35.550 --> 00:57:37.710 that I'm very comfortable in speaking about now. 00:57:37.849 --> 00:57:42.110 I certainly talk about it in my book. When I 00:57:42.110 --> 00:57:45.210 first got on the job, when I started on the job. 00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:47.820 I worked in an area where there was outlaw motorcycle 00:57:47.820 --> 00:57:50.460 gang clubhouse. And a lot of what I did in frontline 00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:54.579 duties was associated with, I loved engaging 00:57:54.579 --> 00:57:56.739 with outlaw motorcycle gangs and associates and 00:57:56.739 --> 00:57:58.280 all that stuff. I love tracking their movements, 00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:01.239 intelligence, all that stuff. And they changed 00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:03.320 and I was dealing with some, some pretty bad 00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:06.539 dudes at, you know, and I really enjoyed that 00:58:06.539 --> 00:58:10.280 type of police work. But, you know, when you 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:12.179 do that sort of stuff, it does come with a cost. 00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:14.099 And I'll just kind of keep it generic there and 00:58:14.099 --> 00:58:18.980 put it this way. I survived. I then went into 00:58:18.980 --> 00:58:22.480 as a platoon sergeant. Best job I've ever had 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:25.460 in the OPP as a player coach and taking care 00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:28.960 of my people. I love I miss them very much. But 00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:31.099 they had a program where they they come around 00:58:31.099 --> 00:58:33.179 and they say, hey, listen, we need a sergeant 00:58:33.179 --> 00:58:35.679 from every detachment to go into internal affairs. 00:58:36.659 --> 00:58:39.269 And they came to me. And they said, it's only 00:58:39.269 --> 00:58:41.630 a three month gig. I said, I don't want this. 00:58:41.750 --> 00:58:45.929 I do not want to go. I actually don't think I'm 00:58:45.929 --> 00:58:47.750 the type of guy that you want in there to begin 00:58:47.750 --> 00:58:52.030 with. And so, but I had been in crime and I'd 00:58:52.030 --> 00:58:54.250 done major investigations and stuff. So they 00:58:54.250 --> 00:58:55.969 were hitting up people and no one else wanted 00:58:55.969 --> 00:58:58.590 it. And then they came around again and they 00:58:58.590 --> 00:59:03.630 said, listen, we want you to do this. Will you 00:59:03.630 --> 00:59:05.940 go? Because you have to kind of be willing to 00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:07.599 go into something like that. So I went and I 00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:09.800 talked to a lot of my buddies, my hard -hitting, 00:59:09.900 --> 00:59:13.860 hardcore dudes, awesome guys, and kind of got 00:59:13.860 --> 00:59:15.260 the green light and said, you know what, you 00:59:15.260 --> 00:59:17.579 can make a difference in there. So I did. And 00:59:17.579 --> 00:59:20.980 so I went in and I saw immediately the impact 00:59:20.980 --> 00:59:24.179 of these investigations, how brutal some of them 00:59:24.179 --> 00:59:26.320 were onto the members and their families, by 00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:31.099 extension. And it just... We had, while I was 00:59:31.099 --> 00:59:32.960 in there, one of the members that was under investigation 00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:39.159 by multiple people died by suicide. And that 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:42.659 rocked me. And it was that feeling once again 00:59:42.659 --> 00:59:45.199 that I had dealt with that I talked about today, 00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:47.679 which I've never talked about, was the young 00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:51.880 girl being killed in my presence early on in 00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:54.739 my career. And then you throw the biker stuff 00:59:54.739 --> 00:59:56.699 in there, then you start throwing this in, and 00:59:56.699 --> 01:00:00.320 this is in and around. 20 you know just after 01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:05.619 2010 so so it's compiling and then so then I 01:00:05.619 --> 01:00:08.519 became an academy instructor and then I felt 01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:12.519 like there was at that time in 2013 I needed 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:14.139 to take a couple of months off and I just remember 01:00:14.139 --> 01:00:16.239 I was at a conference and one of our four psychologists 01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:20.239 was it was all internal affairs and he asked 01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:23.199 a question to everybody he goes where do you 01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:27.670 think PTSD exists within the the police forces 01:00:27.670 --> 01:00:29.610 and they had representatives from all over the 01:00:29.610 --> 01:00:32.150 province from internal affairs and i'm thinking 01:00:32.150 --> 01:00:34.869 it actually it actually exists in internal affairs 01:00:34.869 --> 01:00:37.409 like the ability to feel responsible for the 01:00:37.409 --> 01:00:40.030 deaths of other people is how i was feeling at 01:00:40.030 --> 01:00:42.469 that time and he starts throwing this stuff up 01:00:42.469 --> 01:00:44.510 on the screen and this is in 2013 this is 12 01:00:44.510 --> 01:00:46.269 years ago before a lot of this stuff was even 01:00:46.269 --> 01:00:49.909 talked about and i just crumbled and i had to 01:00:49.909 --> 01:00:52.869 left i left the room i took my gun off i handed 01:00:52.869 --> 01:00:55.230 it to my buddy Not that I was going to do anything 01:00:55.230 --> 01:00:57.289 to myself. I just knew that I was off work. I 01:00:57.289 --> 01:01:01.090 said, take this thing. And I went off for a couple 01:01:01.090 --> 01:01:05.570 of months. And at that time, there was no real 01:01:05.570 --> 01:01:07.590 support. So it's a guy that I handed my gun to, 01:01:07.630 --> 01:01:10.929 which is a solid dude. And because he was a solid 01:01:10.929 --> 01:01:12.389 dude, he was the kind of guy that would reach 01:01:12.389 --> 01:01:15.530 out. But the whole process kind of winded down. 01:01:15.630 --> 01:01:17.630 You're off. The system keeps going. The phone 01:01:17.630 --> 01:01:20.389 doesn't ring. I learned firsthand right then 01:01:20.389 --> 01:01:25.300 and there. It was pretty humbling. to go through 01:01:25.300 --> 01:01:27.800 something like that. It was pretty awful. I fought 01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:30.079 my way back. I didn't want to be back in internal 01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:31.820 affairs because I was still feeling responsible. 01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:33.599 I went in, I started teaching the recruits and 01:01:33.599 --> 01:01:36.239 I loved it because I just felt like I could give 01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:38.260 back and it was an area that I loved doing, helping 01:01:38.260 --> 01:01:42.119 others. Then I was elected, just before I was 01:01:42.119 --> 01:01:46.300 elected president, and I was on scene of a collision 01:01:46.300 --> 01:01:49.739 as a supervisor. Young woman was killed. We had 01:01:49.739 --> 01:01:52.530 to make an arrest of her family member. And I 01:01:52.530 --> 01:01:55.889 just remember it was cold and everyone else had 01:01:55.889 --> 01:01:57.630 left notifications, all that stuff. And it was 01:01:57.630 --> 01:02:00.570 just me and her at the side of the road. And 01:02:00.570 --> 01:02:05.309 I just remember saying to myself, I'm done. This 01:02:05.309 --> 01:02:10.289 was in 2015. And this was simultaneous to me 01:02:10.289 --> 01:02:12.090 actually running for the position of president 01:02:12.090 --> 01:02:15.530 and actually realizing at the same time that 01:02:15.530 --> 01:02:19.949 I was elected. So where sort of this whole thing 01:02:19.949 --> 01:02:25.360 has come from. 2018 imagine taking over this 01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:27.900 organization with the magnitude the mental health 01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:31.360 crisis losing people to suicide every year not 01:02:31.360 --> 01:02:34.360 fully understanding even the supports and services 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:36.059 that we offered when I went in there because 01:02:36.059 --> 01:02:38.579 I had been out of it for so long and realizing 01:02:38.579 --> 01:02:41.719 once I got in that we as a team had a lot of 01:02:41.719 --> 01:02:45.139 work to do and there were some people that were 01:02:45.139 --> 01:02:46.940 pulling this way there's people pulling that 01:02:46.940 --> 01:02:50.500 way and I was like, no, we need to move in the 01:02:50.500 --> 01:02:52.579 forward direction. We need to do something significant. 01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:55.059 And we kept, like I said, the first responder, 01:02:55.159 --> 01:02:57.079 presumptive legislation, working with our partners, 01:02:57.239 --> 01:03:00.639 moving forward, the increased psychological supports 01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:03.820 for counseling. And then when we lost three OPP 01:03:03.820 --> 01:03:09.460 members in the summer of 2018, I put that, I 01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:12.699 listened to the widows who inspired me. I went 01:03:12.699 --> 01:03:16.920 to the funeral of one of the members. And I just 01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:20.420 remember, I just remember seeing all the disconnects 01:03:20.420 --> 01:03:24.019 from spouses who wanted to get their husbands 01:03:24.019 --> 01:03:29.179 the help that they needed, but they were struggling. 01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:37.500 And that's when I came back and I wrote the membership, 01:03:37.579 --> 01:03:40.519 the letter I was telling you about. And I was 01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:42.840 just inundated and it started this national conversation 01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:47.800 in many ways. and doing media and getting out 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:50.239 there and being scared shitless at the same time. 01:03:50.260 --> 01:03:52.719 Because once you throw yourself out there, you 01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:53.880 know, I started worrying about, you know, what 01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:55.659 is this? What are people going to think of me 01:03:55.659 --> 01:03:59.440 and my wife, my kids? What's the impact? Am I 01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:02.219 going to piss off some of the widows who have 01:04:02.219 --> 01:04:05.000 gone through the ultimate pain? And it was very 01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:08.280 well received, actually, kind of coming out. 01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:10.519 And like I said, I made the promise to them. 01:04:10.619 --> 01:04:12.699 And that's when I went back to my office. I had 01:04:12.699 --> 01:04:15.420 listened to the widows, their families. my friends, 01:04:15.500 --> 01:04:19.280 myself, the association. I closed my door. I 01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:21.139 went into my office with a blank piece of paper. 01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:23.300 I pulled out a piece of paper and I said, if 01:04:23.300 --> 01:04:25.360 money was not an option, what would the best 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:27.940 mental health program for first responders look 01:04:27.940 --> 01:04:31.980 like? And I just sat down. It has to be 24, 24 01:04:31.980 --> 01:04:34.440 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a year. It 01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:36.320 has to be bilingual. Many of our members that 01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:39.420 we have. are French. They speak French as their 01:04:39.420 --> 01:04:41.119 primary language. They need to be able to effectively 01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:43.280 communicate their issues and concerns in the 01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:46.059 language that they speak. It has to be culturally 01:04:46.059 --> 01:04:47.719 relevant. They have to understand the culture 01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:50.079 of the OPP and the OPP Association. They have 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:52.159 to understand the culture of people. So we need 01:04:52.159 --> 01:04:55.559 a diverse group of clinicians who can connect, 01:04:55.739 --> 01:04:58.719 whether they're racialized, whether they're white, 01:04:58.840 --> 01:05:01.239 whether they're indigenous, whatever. When you 01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:03.980 mix those things together, and then it has to 01:05:03.980 --> 01:05:05.840 have residential treatment, and then it has to 01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:08.380 have Then it has to have, once you come into 01:05:08.380 --> 01:05:12.019 this program, we have to have constant touching 01:05:12.019 --> 01:05:15.699 in with the individuals. So this program has 01:05:15.699 --> 01:05:19.579 thousands and thousands of emails and phone calls 01:05:19.579 --> 01:05:21.880 out to the people that are participating in this 01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:25.119 program. So I designed it with our team over 01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:27.800 the 18 month period, procured it, we implemented 01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:31.420 it. And I said in the procurement process, I 01:05:31.420 --> 01:05:34.300 want you to design this program in such a way 01:05:34.300 --> 01:05:37.139 that you do the following. When somebody reaches 01:05:37.139 --> 01:05:38.840 out to you, whether it's two in the afternoon 01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:41.760 or two in the morning, I want you, trauma -informed 01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:44.320 people on the other end of that phone who have 01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:47.539 access to every resource known to man, wrap your 01:05:47.539 --> 01:05:50.619 arms around that person and do not let them go. 01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:53.699 I don't know how you write that in the RFP, but 01:05:53.699 --> 01:05:55.699 it's got to be in there. So I stayed with it 01:05:55.699 --> 01:05:58.880 the entire time. Meanwhile, I was getting, we 01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:02.019 had more mental health crisis on the go over 01:06:02.019 --> 01:06:05.179 the 18 -month period. I started to... become 01:06:05.179 --> 01:06:08.579 physically and mentally exhausted. I continued 01:06:08.579 --> 01:06:11.800 to feel responsible for the deaths of the people 01:06:11.800 --> 01:06:16.539 that I was there to take care of. And in 2020, 01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:19.599 after the program launched, March 30th of 2020, 01:06:19.900 --> 01:06:23.599 at the beginning of the pandemic, which was ironic, 01:06:23.780 --> 01:06:25.579 which was incredible because people needed these 01:06:25.579 --> 01:06:28.500 things, I couldn't get into residential treatment. 01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:31.119 I went into residential treatment in May for 01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:34.820 the first time. And as president, very few people 01:06:34.820 --> 01:06:37.119 knew. And then in November, I had to go in again. 01:06:37.300 --> 01:06:39.780 And then while I was there, one of our members 01:06:39.780 --> 01:06:42.760 was murdered, shot to death. And I checked myself 01:06:42.760 --> 01:06:45.199 out because it wasn't in my DNA. And I went, 01:06:45.260 --> 01:06:46.780 another member was hurt. So I had to go to the 01:06:46.780 --> 01:06:49.219 hospital and see him. Didn't had to, I wanted 01:06:49.219 --> 01:06:54.119 to. And November 30th, 2020, I was done. And 01:06:54.119 --> 01:06:56.059 then I was officially diagnosed with complex 01:06:56.059 --> 01:06:58.119 PTSD. I was out of the workplace for 10 months. 01:06:58.460 --> 01:07:01.639 And here I went from being the president. to 01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:06.000 out of the workplace and really, really, really, 01:07:06.019 --> 01:07:07.980 really fighting the effects. And I'll tell you, 01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:09.739 you know, one of the things that helped me through 01:07:09.739 --> 01:07:12.219 it, of all things, obviously the support of my 01:07:12.219 --> 01:07:16.039 wife, my children, my counselor, other people 01:07:16.039 --> 01:07:18.000 who had the strength and courage to stand up. 01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:22.880 It's going to, there's a show on TV. So I've 01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:26.300 had, I've had two heart attacks. My first one 01:07:26.300 --> 01:07:28.500 was in 2018 when I had the job. The other one 01:07:28.500 --> 01:07:32.829 I had was 14 months ago. And, you know, before 01:07:32.829 --> 01:07:36.829 I retired. And the first one I had in 2018, I 01:07:36.829 --> 01:07:39.269 started watching a show called Seal Team. Have 01:07:39.269 --> 01:07:42.269 you seen that show with David Boreanaz? I had 01:07:42.269 --> 01:07:44.570 the guy that plays the dog handler on the show. 01:07:44.710 --> 01:07:47.389 So I haven't actually seen an episode, but I'm 01:07:47.389 --> 01:07:50.170 aware of it. Yeah, the dog handler. He's an actual 01:07:50.170 --> 01:07:52.469 police officer in real life, I believe. That 01:07:52.469 --> 01:07:55.130 gentleman. Yeah, he's kind of like a canine trainer. 01:07:55.170 --> 01:07:57.610 Not actually a cop, but he helps train canines. 01:07:58.130 --> 01:08:02.289 Yeah, it's... That show really, really resonated 01:08:02.289 --> 01:08:05.510 with me, the way that they handled TBI and PTSD. 01:08:05.909 --> 01:08:09.190 And so as it went through, it was almost a running 01:08:09.190 --> 01:08:11.889 timeline to what I was experiencing. And I don't 01:08:11.889 --> 01:08:13.789 mean to digress on this answer. I'm just saying 01:08:13.789 --> 01:08:17.369 the way that they handled that at the end of 01:08:17.369 --> 01:08:19.590 the show, and I don't want to ruin it for people 01:08:19.590 --> 01:08:20.869 that haven't seen the show. So I don't want to, 01:08:20.869 --> 01:08:22.569 and it's been out for a long time. So hopefully, 01:08:22.670 --> 01:08:26.909 but just the way in which they were there for 01:08:26.909 --> 01:08:31.109 their brother. And they stepped up and they weren't 01:08:31.109 --> 01:08:34.569 afraid. Finally, they were like, we're standing 01:08:34.569 --> 01:08:36.250 up and we're going to do the right thing because 01:08:36.250 --> 01:08:38.550 it's the right thing to do. Be damned the consequences. 01:08:38.949 --> 01:08:43.189 And I was in my basement watching this and I 01:08:43.189 --> 01:08:45.869 was absolutely choked up. And I thought to myself, 01:08:46.229 --> 01:08:49.829 yes, that's exactly what it takes. It takes a 01:08:49.829 --> 01:08:51.810 village. And I've said this since day one. It's 01:08:51.810 --> 01:08:53.470 the old expression, it takes a village to raise 01:08:53.470 --> 01:08:55.689 a child. But I actually believe that it takes 01:08:55.689 --> 01:09:00.119 a village your entire life. And when I saw that, 01:09:00.220 --> 01:09:03.560 I thought it was Tyler Gray that brings that 01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:05.060 and the other people that are in it that bring 01:09:05.060 --> 01:09:07.479 that, just the way they did that. And I was like, 01:09:07.579 --> 01:09:10.560 I bet you there's a lot of people out there that 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:14.159 are just like me, that that show spoke to them 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:16.920 in such a way that gave me such hope. And you 01:09:16.920 --> 01:09:19.579 got Jason Boreanaz, Jason on the show at the 01:09:19.579 --> 01:09:23.300 very end. You know, I hate talking about it because 01:09:23.300 --> 01:09:25.039 in the sense that I don't like, you know, I don't 01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:26.760 want people to, it's been out long enough, but 01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:29.079 when he goes easy effing day at the very end, 01:09:29.140 --> 01:09:32.399 you know, and I thought, right on, exactly. And 01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:34.560 I managed to get myself back into the workplace. 01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:36.939 I managed after 10 months to reintegrate. I managed 01:09:36.939 --> 01:09:39.279 to get an amazing job where I work with so many 01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:41.840 United States law enforcement agencies, the DEA, 01:09:41.840 --> 01:09:44.880 ATF, FBI, Department of Justice, Homeland, out 01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:47.180 of the Ottawa Embassy, Toronto Consulate, doing 01:09:47.180 --> 01:09:50.289 really amazing work around. And working with 01:09:50.289 --> 01:09:51.750 some really, really cool people and eventually 01:09:51.750 --> 01:09:54.310 getting back into the police union. So with enough 01:09:54.310 --> 01:09:58.189 support, compassion, understanding, no judgment, 01:09:58.350 --> 01:10:04.310 and you can get there. And so I give a lot of 01:10:04.310 --> 01:10:06.409 people a lot of credit and I respect their courage. 01:10:06.529 --> 01:10:10.250 And, you know, I just, it's interesting shows. 01:10:11.090 --> 01:10:13.029 Sometimes people even that do the shows probably 01:10:13.029 --> 01:10:16.810 don't understand the magnitude of the impact. 01:10:17.350 --> 01:10:19.609 Shows like that can have, but that show there 01:10:19.609 --> 01:10:22.329 had a massive impact on me in a positive way. 01:10:23.789 --> 01:10:27.310 Where was the lowest place you got in this whole 01:10:27.310 --> 01:10:29.770 time? And then what was some of the tools in 01:10:29.770 --> 01:10:37.470 that toolbox that helped you navigate out? I 01:10:37.470 --> 01:10:40.289 think one of the lowest points was while I was 01:10:40.289 --> 01:10:43.270 still president and I knew that this program 01:10:43.270 --> 01:10:51.310 was going to make. massive difference and it 01:10:51.310 --> 01:10:56.350 was the I don't want to say abuse but it was 01:10:56.350 --> 01:11:03.069 the complaints and the criticisms from some and 01:11:03.069 --> 01:11:06.170 the accusations that the association keeps talking 01:11:06.170 --> 01:11:07.930 about this program they're going to bring in 01:11:07.930 --> 01:11:11.329 and when you're talking about creating something 01:11:11.329 --> 01:11:13.909 that's never been created before for thousands 01:11:13.909 --> 01:11:18.770 of people, securing the funding. This stuff's 01:11:18.770 --> 01:11:22.770 unprecedented. And I give credit to the people 01:11:22.770 --> 01:11:27.590 that supported me while we did this. But it was 01:11:27.590 --> 01:11:29.470 awful. I remember being in the boardroom and 01:11:29.470 --> 01:11:34.029 people coming in and I would think, Jesus, please. 01:11:34.929 --> 01:11:37.390 Please, you know, please, everybody stay alive 01:11:37.390 --> 01:11:39.149 until like it was just an awful I was just in 01:11:39.149 --> 01:11:42.130 a horrible place. And so I had to do this job. 01:11:42.409 --> 01:11:49.090 I was declining. I think once I was able to once 01:11:49.090 --> 01:11:51.010 we were able to so just to give you some context 01:11:51.010 --> 01:11:54.770 on this program. Since its launch March 30th 01:11:54.770 --> 01:11:58.609 of 2020, we've had up to 4 ,000 members in their 01:11:58.609 --> 01:12:01.590 families utilize this program. We've had up to 01:12:01.590 --> 01:12:05.229 400 critical crisis response calls. So those 01:12:05.229 --> 01:12:06.989 are people that are calling up at any given time 01:12:06.989 --> 01:12:10.989 of the day that are in absolute crisis. In the 01:12:10.989 --> 01:12:14.170 past, we had a benefit section. We had some people 01:12:14.170 --> 01:12:17.010 doing some good stuff. But because this was a 01:12:17.010 --> 01:12:21.550 one -stop shop, 24 -7, 365, all that stuff. I 01:12:21.550 --> 01:12:24.289 would hate to think where we are today, but some 01:12:24.289 --> 01:12:27.050 of the worst times, but I made a promise to my 01:12:27.050 --> 01:12:30.369 wife because when I was in residential treatment, 01:12:30.489 --> 01:12:32.729 like I said, I was in there with some special 01:12:32.729 --> 01:12:35.310 forces dudes, which are, they were incredible 01:12:35.310 --> 01:12:39.850 military guys, police officers. One was a nurse, 01:12:39.890 --> 01:12:42.229 you know, they're in the previous cohorts. There 01:12:42.229 --> 01:12:44.069 would be some, some firefighters, just, you know, 01:12:44.069 --> 01:12:48.149 the first responder community. But I. Some guys 01:12:48.149 --> 01:12:50.069 were doing better. Some guys were doing worse, 01:12:50.170 --> 01:12:54.569 you know, or worse off. For me, it was making 01:12:54.569 --> 01:12:58.149 that promise from the beginning that to my wife 01:12:58.149 --> 01:13:01.149 that I will survive. I will get through this. 01:13:01.729 --> 01:13:05.369 And even though there were days when you're fighting 01:13:05.369 --> 01:13:12.920 it, you get those setbacks. Some of the worst 01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:15.359 times was while I was still in the role and just 01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:17.779 praying to God that no one else would be hurt 01:13:17.779 --> 01:13:21.880 or died. And once the program has taken off, 01:13:21.979 --> 01:13:25.060 and it did take off, and it has been a massive 01:13:25.060 --> 01:13:28.199 success. So I think those were some of the worst 01:13:28.199 --> 01:13:31.579 times. The feeling responsible for the deaths 01:13:31.579 --> 01:13:33.760 of other people, and then working through that 01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:35.760 and understanding that, no, I'm not responsible 01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:41.760 for the deaths of other people. Now, when my 01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:44.319 head hits the pillow, I think to myself, we have 01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:46.060 a program that's been in place for five years. 01:13:46.220 --> 01:13:48.760 There is not one thing that is not offered through 01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:51.920 that program. And our people have unprecedented 01:13:51.920 --> 01:13:55.420 supports, not only our people, but their families. 01:13:55.479 --> 01:13:57.720 And we see a huge uptake on their families, huge. 01:13:58.140 --> 01:14:00.420 And they're critical components to this whole 01:14:00.420 --> 01:14:04.699 thing as well. It's amazing how, as you've alluded 01:14:04.699 --> 01:14:08.510 to before, how like. crushing organizational 01:14:08.510 --> 01:14:11.810 betrayal or organizational stress can be. And 01:14:11.810 --> 01:14:14.670 I've found this even, I mean, my last fire department 01:14:14.670 --> 01:14:17.510 was very much that, that way, you know, and it 01:14:17.510 --> 01:14:19.069 was just trying to highlight things that we needed 01:14:19.069 --> 01:14:21.649 to address everything from firefighter fitness 01:14:21.649 --> 01:14:24.890 to simply being able to wear your mask and ascend 01:14:24.890 --> 01:14:27.609 gear with the way needed. I mean, pretty basic 01:14:27.609 --> 01:14:31.210 operational elements, but now outside doing what 01:14:31.210 --> 01:14:33.149 I'm doing and trying to push these healthy work 01:14:33.149 --> 01:14:35.010 weeks, for example, and getting exactly what 01:14:35.010 --> 01:14:37.079 you're told, what are you talking about? getting 01:14:37.079 --> 01:14:39.579 people that you are advocating for pushing back 01:14:39.579 --> 01:14:42.380 and saying oh no that doesn't work that's stupid 01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:45.220 and it's like it's literally solving all the 01:14:45.220 --> 01:14:48.140 things and it's going to get you home safely 01:14:48.140 --> 01:14:51.340 and happy to your family more often why would 01:14:51.340 --> 01:14:53.640 you why would you push back why would you draw 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:56.539 a breath to oppose the thing that we're trying 01:14:56.539 --> 01:15:00.619 to address where does that come from where where 01:15:00.619 --> 01:15:06.500 is that toxicity bred that would brainwash a 01:15:06.500 --> 01:15:10.100 police officer or a firefighter to actually oppose 01:15:10.100 --> 01:15:13.060 the very solution of the crisis that they're 01:15:13.060 --> 01:15:15.979 facing? Isn't that a great question? It's one 01:15:15.979 --> 01:15:17.899 that I've asked myself multiple times, but what 01:15:17.899 --> 01:15:19.880 was great about it is, is while I was president, 01:15:20.119 --> 01:15:23.619 you have that platform. So I really think it 01:15:23.619 --> 01:15:25.840 comes down to leadership. You know, it's interesting. 01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:27.979 Some people play three -dimensional, four -dimensional 01:15:27.979 --> 01:15:32.010 chess, whatever they want to call it. did to 01:15:32.010 --> 01:15:34.590 a certain degree but I was more concerned with 01:15:34.590 --> 01:15:37.329 doing what was right and what was in the best 01:15:37.329 --> 01:15:39.689 interest of our people not about what's in the 01:15:39.689 --> 01:15:42.229 best interest so listen I'll just do this amount 01:15:42.229 --> 01:15:46.710 so when I retire in June of 2025 I now can go 01:15:46.710 --> 01:15:48.930 get a job somewhere else because I've managed 01:15:48.930 --> 01:15:50.970 to keep these relationships that I didn't challenge 01:15:50.970 --> 01:15:54.930 you know yeah and so for me I was very one -dimensional 01:15:54.930 --> 01:15:57.949 that way I was very, for those five years, that's 01:15:57.949 --> 01:16:01.630 my servant leadership. That is exactly the way 01:16:01.630 --> 01:16:04.750 that I operated. And I'm okay with that. I can 01:16:04.750 --> 01:16:07.569 look at myself in the mirror. I know, you know, 01:16:07.569 --> 01:16:10.630 when I take my daughters out to the grocery store 01:16:10.630 --> 01:16:12.750 and I run into somebody, you know, nine times 01:16:12.750 --> 01:16:16.149 out of 10 or even higher, like I said, I'm great. 01:16:16.350 --> 01:16:19.529 I don't care who I run into because that's always 01:16:19.529 --> 01:16:21.569 been my focus. And you're absolutely right. And 01:16:21.569 --> 01:16:25.819 I think I have a bit of a... philosophy and i 01:16:25.819 --> 01:16:28.500 obviously it's a generalization but i think it 01:16:28.500 --> 01:16:31.300 really goes back to you know people that want 01:16:31.300 --> 01:16:34.720 to get into these professions you know i think 01:16:34.720 --> 01:16:37.340 the biggest question you people get asked all 01:16:37.340 --> 01:16:38.600 the time well why did you want to become a police 01:16:38.600 --> 01:16:40.520 officer and you know the standard answer is always 01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:41.899 you know i wanted to help people and i'm sure 01:16:41.899 --> 01:16:45.119 that is very much true But to your point, you've 01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:46.739 kind of alluded to something earlier about, you 01:16:46.739 --> 01:16:48.560 know, things that happen within your younger 01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:52.000 self can also be drivers, positive, negative, 01:16:52.119 --> 01:16:54.899 otherwise, whatever. And I'm just sort of paraphrasing 01:16:54.899 --> 01:16:57.939 and excuse me if I'm putting words in your mouth 01:16:57.939 --> 01:16:59.199 because I don't mean to because it's actually 01:16:59.199 --> 01:17:04.600 what I believe. When you break it down, some 01:17:04.600 --> 01:17:06.420 of the people that I've seen in my career and 01:17:06.420 --> 01:17:07.899 I've worked with, it's a lot of averages. We 01:17:07.899 --> 01:17:09.640 have some amazing people that we all work with. 01:17:10.220 --> 01:17:12.939 But some of the people I see that. that have 01:17:12.939 --> 01:17:15.300 come on to law enforcement for example in particular 01:17:15.300 --> 01:17:20.659 the one that i work with the opp um their approach 01:17:20.659 --> 01:17:28.060 um who this inflexibility to be a decent human 01:17:28.060 --> 01:17:33.699 being was lost upon them prior to applying to 01:17:33.699 --> 01:17:37.239 get on the job in my opinion then when they get 01:17:37.239 --> 01:17:40.159 on the job some of these people some of them 01:17:40.159 --> 01:17:43.930 who may be narcissists which to me are some of 01:17:43.930 --> 01:17:46.350 the most treacherous people going, will do anything 01:17:46.350 --> 01:17:49.449 they can to take out anybody who they perceive 01:17:49.449 --> 01:17:51.770 real or otherwise to be a threat. And I've gone 01:17:51.770 --> 01:17:54.470 against those people, and I love that. It's actually 01:17:54.470 --> 01:17:56.850 what fuels me. I love going against them. And 01:17:56.850 --> 01:18:01.770 it's because that's why I wanted to become, and 01:18:01.770 --> 01:18:03.109 many of the people that I know want to become 01:18:03.109 --> 01:18:04.909 police officers, because you want to stand up 01:18:04.909 --> 01:18:07.909 against the bully who's taking advantage of people 01:18:07.909 --> 01:18:11.640 in society. Right. That's why you want to become 01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:13.640 a cop. You want to advocate. You want to protect. 01:18:13.859 --> 01:18:15.520 You want to serve. You want to do these things. 01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:18.199 So you don't expect it. You don't see it coming 01:18:18.199 --> 01:18:21.640 from the inside, especially before these conversations 01:18:21.640 --> 01:18:23.819 were happening. So when you look back, a guy 01:18:23.819 --> 01:18:25.800 like myself who just retired after 30 years, 01:18:25.859 --> 01:18:27.239 you look back, OK, here's the first 10 years. 01:18:27.300 --> 01:18:29.039 Here's the second. Here's the third. And you 01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:31.180 see the evolution. We weren't talking about these 01:18:31.180 --> 01:18:34.920 things. 30 years ago, 20 years ago, maybe some 01:18:34.920 --> 01:18:36.819 people were, but generally no one was really 01:18:36.819 --> 01:18:38.800 talking about this stuff. In the last 10 years, 01:18:38.819 --> 01:18:42.960 yes, I'd say. In sanctuary trauma, which causes 01:18:42.960 --> 01:18:45.880 moral injury and injury to the soul. But these 01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:48.619 same people that get on, and I thought this way 01:18:48.619 --> 01:18:53.119 years ago, and I look at them and I go, you're 01:18:53.119 --> 01:18:56.399 now wanting to get promoted because now you realize 01:18:56.399 --> 01:19:01.039 that self -worth that you are identifying with. 01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:04.500 does not have the same residence within people 01:19:04.500 --> 01:19:08.539 who have the exact same authority and responsibilities 01:19:08.539 --> 01:19:10.939 that you do. I hope I'm making sense. You are. 01:19:11.279 --> 01:19:17.239 And then so they get promoted for whatever reason. 01:19:17.520 --> 01:19:22.439 And next thing you know, there's this. For every 01:19:22.439 --> 01:19:24.640 one of those, I've worked for so many, just like 01:19:24.640 --> 01:19:26.840 you have, incredible human beings, and I do not 01:19:26.840 --> 01:19:28.960 want to come across as negative today, but I 01:19:28.960 --> 01:19:31.380 do want to call stuff out and be factual and 01:19:31.380 --> 01:19:35.359 say, so that person, one person, as they go up 01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:37.239 that chain of command, what do they do? They 01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:42.380 promote people that are subservient to them or 01:19:42.380 --> 01:19:46.359 agree with them or won't rock that boat or won't 01:19:46.359 --> 01:19:50.079 call them out for their... uh absurd offensive 01:19:50.079 --> 01:19:54.319 abusive behavior and that's what i loved about 01:19:54.319 --> 01:19:58.239 the police union because i my philosophy is that 01:19:58.239 --> 01:20:00.159 i'll work with the commissioner and the deputies 01:20:00.159 --> 01:20:02.420 and all the other people and and we can bring 01:20:02.420 --> 01:20:04.420 them and we have really strong relationship and 01:20:04.420 --> 01:20:07.260 i'm really proud of that approach but part of 01:20:07.260 --> 01:20:11.960 that comes with conversations that say you know 01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:15.300 and i know that this person here at this detachment 01:20:15.970 --> 01:20:18.750 who's detachment commander or someone else, I'm 01:20:18.750 --> 01:20:21.529 just using generic terms because most are amazing. 01:20:22.369 --> 01:20:24.210 You know, and I know that they should never be 01:20:24.210 --> 01:20:27.390 around other human beings. You know that. They 01:20:27.390 --> 01:20:29.229 probably would be good. So when I was running 01:20:29.229 --> 01:20:33.329 leadership coaching in the academy, it was for 01:20:33.329 --> 01:20:36.069 staff surgeons who would get paired with inspectors 01:20:36.069 --> 01:20:39.529 and superintendents and some of the people who 01:20:39.529 --> 01:20:42.729 were extremely problematic at detachment levels 01:20:42.729 --> 01:20:45.590 for whatever reason. Whether it was because they 01:20:45.590 --> 01:20:47.090 were a narcissist, whether it be they're abusive, 01:20:47.270 --> 01:20:49.609 whether they're power hungry or whether they're 01:20:49.609 --> 01:20:53.529 just unable and unwilling to be a decent human 01:20:53.529 --> 01:20:57.609 being. But if you gave them an administrative 01:20:57.609 --> 01:21:02.670 assignment, what I saw is some of them were just 01:21:02.670 --> 01:21:04.670 rocking those because that's actually where they 01:21:04.670 --> 01:21:07.829 excelled. So what we need to do is we need to 01:21:07.829 --> 01:21:12.170 get better at saying to people, we can send you 01:21:12.170 --> 01:21:14.810 on all the leadership courses in the world. Some 01:21:14.810 --> 01:21:17.010 people, and this is my own opinion, you could 01:21:17.010 --> 01:21:18.770 send them on leadership coaching for the rest 01:21:18.770 --> 01:21:21.090 of their career, and that guy's not changing. 01:21:21.569 --> 01:21:23.569 The only thing at the end of the day, you can 01:21:23.569 --> 01:21:25.649 give everybody the opportunities to do that. 01:21:25.750 --> 01:21:27.770 You can mentor them. You can do all these things. 01:21:27.810 --> 01:21:29.989 But at the end of the day, sometimes you have 01:21:29.989 --> 01:21:33.289 to say for the sake of all the others, I think 01:21:33.289 --> 01:21:35.350 this is probably a better opportunity for you. 01:21:35.409 --> 01:21:37.729 You bring somebody in that's dynamic, that's 01:21:37.729 --> 01:21:39.670 leadership, that cares for their people, that 01:21:39.670 --> 01:21:41.270 treats their people with respect, that holds 01:21:41.270 --> 01:21:45.539 them accountable. But in the how, it never takes 01:21:45.539 --> 01:21:48.140 away someone's dignity. To me, it's not hard. 01:21:48.260 --> 01:21:49.819 I don't know why these people struggle with this 01:21:49.819 --> 01:21:52.699 stuff. I don't get it, but some do. And they 01:21:52.699 --> 01:21:55.779 cause a lot of harm within the organizations 01:21:55.779 --> 01:21:59.359 that we both have been part of, for sure. It 01:21:59.359 --> 01:22:01.699 just is a realization for me the last probably 01:22:01.699 --> 01:22:05.640 year, year and a half, where you and I and so 01:22:05.640 --> 01:22:07.199 many other people have been talking about mental 01:22:07.199 --> 01:22:10.310 health for a long time now. relatively compared 01:22:10.310 --> 01:22:13.050 to most of the population. And when we talk about 01:22:13.050 --> 01:22:14.770 it, we're like, well, it's the James, it's the 01:22:14.770 --> 01:22:16.270 Robs, it's the people on the street, you know, 01:22:16.270 --> 01:22:18.850 doing the job, wearing the uniform. And we forget 01:22:18.850 --> 01:22:22.090 that that applies all the way to the top. And 01:22:22.090 --> 01:22:24.149 a good example is like, if you are a head of 01:22:24.149 --> 01:22:27.829 a tobacco company or Purdue Pharma or a weapons 01:22:27.829 --> 01:22:31.590 manufacturer, and you sleep soundly at night, 01:22:31.609 --> 01:22:35.090 knowing that you're profiting from things that 01:22:35.090 --> 01:22:37.250 are killing Americans, Canadians, whoever it 01:22:37.250 --> 01:22:41.220 is. you are a sociopath. You just are. There's 01:22:41.220 --> 01:22:44.460 no justifying it at this kind of level. And it's 01:22:44.460 --> 01:22:46.979 the same in police and fire and EMS. If you, 01:22:47.100 --> 01:22:49.659 for example, locally are in charge of a fire 01:22:49.659 --> 01:22:52.199 department that has had five suicides in as many 01:22:52.199 --> 01:22:55.180 years and several more that were never revealed, 01:22:55.420 --> 01:22:58.500 and then most recently now had a fire station 01:22:58.500 --> 01:23:00.880 haze someone to the point where four firefighters 01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:03.699 were arrested, and you just stand on a podium 01:23:03.699 --> 01:23:06.939 and say, oh, it's all their fault, it's the same 01:23:06.939 --> 01:23:09.859 exact thing. And this is where we have to have 01:23:09.859 --> 01:23:13.180 a conversation is it is so dangerous to have 01:23:13.180 --> 01:23:16.399 a narcissist or arguably a sociopath wearing 01:23:16.399 --> 01:23:20.399 a union president suit, a fire chief's class 01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:23.340 A, whatever it is, that are in charge of all 01:23:23.340 --> 01:23:25.859 these people. And I think that going back to 01:23:25.859 --> 01:23:28.399 the kind of initial conversation is this then 01:23:28.399 --> 01:23:31.960 creates a culture. of hurt people hurt people 01:23:31.960 --> 01:23:34.939 that then creates that stigma that has our police 01:23:34.939 --> 01:23:37.140 officers and firefighters afraid to say that 01:23:37.140 --> 01:23:39.659 they're struggling. And then we go and attend 01:23:39.659 --> 01:23:42.260 yet another funeral with a flag -draped coffin 01:23:42.260 --> 01:23:45.720 while the bagpipes play. So it is such an important 01:23:45.720 --> 01:23:49.920 conversation. A hundred percent. And that's exactly 01:23:49.920 --> 01:23:54.039 why, you know, with our commissioner that came 01:23:54.039 --> 01:23:57.500 on in 2019, like his, you know, we were the first 01:23:57.500 --> 01:24:03.000 police. the OPP, in Canada to actually have a 01:24:03.000 --> 01:24:07.119 place of reflection, a suicide memorial place 01:24:07.119 --> 01:24:11.600 of reflection at headquarters, which was, you 01:24:11.600 --> 01:24:14.520 know, really progressive. I know Toronto has 01:24:14.520 --> 01:24:18.579 since got one. And there's much more recognition, 01:24:18.819 --> 01:24:22.880 but really, and rightly so. But really, these 01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:26.800 are leadership issues. This is so fundamentally, 01:24:26.979 --> 01:24:31.100 in my mind, Simple. It's how we treat other human 01:24:31.100 --> 01:24:35.340 beings. And I just keep using. So I was the philosophy 01:24:35.340 --> 01:24:37.840 that Commissioner Creek and myself as president, 01:24:37.899 --> 01:24:43.460 we had was we were able to, I hope. And I think 01:24:43.460 --> 01:24:47.359 if you chat with folks, create a culture where 01:24:47.359 --> 01:24:49.699 it's much easier to come forward. The resources 01:24:49.699 --> 01:24:53.279 are there. The the accountabilities have to be 01:24:53.279 --> 01:24:54.640 there. So I think it's really important, too, 01:24:54.720 --> 01:24:57.909 that when you have. So it was interesting. I've 01:24:57.909 --> 01:24:59.550 never heard of anybody coming from internal affairs 01:24:59.550 --> 01:25:01.649 to the head of the union. Like it just, it's 01:25:01.649 --> 01:25:03.310 just not something that, that, that happens. 01:25:03.750 --> 01:25:05.630 I didn't really see myself getting in. I didn't 01:25:05.630 --> 01:25:07.710 want to go to internal affairs and I didn't see 01:25:07.710 --> 01:25:10.250 myself ever becoming the president of the police 01:25:10.250 --> 01:25:12.710 association, but for whatever reason, they both 01:25:12.710 --> 01:25:16.289 did. And why I know some of the reasons why they 01:25:16.289 --> 01:25:18.010 did for presidents, because I said, you know 01:25:18.010 --> 01:25:21.250 what I can do better than that. And, and, and 01:25:21.250 --> 01:25:25.819 we did. And, but it's. it really comes down to 01:25:25.819 --> 01:25:27.960 leadership and it, and it really, whatever position 01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:30.260 that you hold, I would even say, you don't necessarily 01:25:30.260 --> 01:25:32.479 have to hold a position of authority and responsibility, 01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:34.619 like a hierarchy, like a president. I think it 01:25:34.619 --> 01:25:36.760 comes down to those senior people or any person 01:25:36.760 --> 01:25:39.960 on a platoon there, you know, whether it's a 01:25:39.960 --> 01:25:41.840 shift sergeant, whether it's the junior member, 01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:44.199 whether it's everybody has something to contribute. 01:25:44.659 --> 01:25:48.119 And I think everybody can be a leader for, for 01:25:48.119 --> 01:25:51.000 the better from whatever position that they come 01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:54.670 from. And, but ultimately. People have to be 01:25:54.670 --> 01:25:58.390 setting that tone from the top. And you see today 01:25:58.390 --> 01:26:02.729 examples all over the place where that isn't 01:26:02.729 --> 01:26:05.729 the case. And I go to conferences where, you 01:26:05.729 --> 01:26:07.449 know, up until the time I retired, I would go 01:26:07.449 --> 01:26:08.989 to conferences and the room would be packed with 01:26:08.989 --> 01:26:10.329 people and people would get to the microphone 01:26:10.329 --> 01:26:11.970 and they start asking questions and I would just 01:26:11.970 --> 01:26:17.250 sit there. And it just blows my mind the examples 01:26:17.250 --> 01:26:22.829 that exist still. It blows my mind the... lack 01:26:22.829 --> 01:26:26.270 of resources and support that exists. There's 01:26:26.270 --> 01:26:31.630 no consistency for everybody. So not everybody 01:26:31.630 --> 01:26:33.569 has unlimited psychological supports. Not everybody 01:26:33.569 --> 01:26:35.670 has a factor 85 pension for their civilians. 01:26:35.729 --> 01:26:38.529 Not everybody has unlimited WSIB benefits. Not 01:26:38.529 --> 01:26:41.270 everybody has a concierge one -stop shop service. 01:26:41.810 --> 01:26:44.310 Nobody has, very few people have that stuff. 01:26:44.670 --> 01:26:49.800 So, you know, I think that's, once again, When 01:26:49.800 --> 01:26:51.600 you take on these roles and when you achieve 01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:56.079 these things, it shows others that it's possible. 01:26:56.439 --> 01:26:59.720 It shows others when you speak with vulnerability 01:26:59.720 --> 01:27:03.340 in a position of leadership that it's okay to 01:27:03.340 --> 01:27:06.279 come forward. And I think it's okay when you're 01:27:06.279 --> 01:27:07.500 in a position of authority and responsibility 01:27:07.500 --> 01:27:10.960 like I was to call some of these bastards out. 01:27:11.359 --> 01:27:16.640 And, you know, but once again, for me, it was 01:27:16.640 --> 01:27:19.569 always in the how I did it. You know, and it's 01:27:19.569 --> 01:27:23.189 really, so when you have relationships with all 01:27:23.189 --> 01:27:27.289 these political leaders, like I do, all the bureaucrats, 01:27:27.289 --> 01:27:28.649 the ones that you need to have relationships 01:27:28.649 --> 01:27:30.989 with, the commissioner, the deputies and all 01:27:30.989 --> 01:27:32.710 the other people, all the people across the province, 01:27:32.750 --> 01:27:34.510 when you have a lot of relationships with those 01:27:34.510 --> 01:27:38.970 people, when this person who may be in charge 01:27:38.970 --> 01:27:43.229 of something over here, hopefully is smart enough 01:27:43.229 --> 01:27:45.350 to clue in that the head of the union is actually 01:27:45.350 --> 01:27:48.689 on really good terms. with your boss's boss's 01:27:48.689 --> 01:27:52.689 boss's boss's boss and all the way down, that 01:27:52.689 --> 01:27:56.250 generally, from my experience, if they're acute 01:27:56.250 --> 01:27:59.710 enough or astute enough, should send the message 01:27:59.710 --> 01:28:01.810 that, you know what, you may want to act in this 01:28:01.810 --> 01:28:06.550 regard, but if you do, be very careful because 01:28:06.550 --> 01:28:08.649 you will be held accountable and you might not 01:28:08.649 --> 01:28:10.590 even know where it's coming from when you are. 01:28:13.029 --> 01:28:16.600 Yeah, no, I think that's, you know. That's what 01:28:16.600 --> 01:28:18.699 we need to do. I mean, I think where I really 01:28:18.699 --> 01:28:21.939 struggle is just like you said, you got to call 01:28:21.939 --> 01:28:23.899 some of these bastards out. I'm a nice bloke. 01:28:24.239 --> 01:28:26.659 I really do believe that. And I want to just 01:28:26.659 --> 01:28:30.939 go on and, you know, just enjoy. If I was still 01:28:30.939 --> 01:28:32.819 in the uniform, enjoy the profession and be around 01:28:32.819 --> 01:28:34.939 crews that have got their physical fitness and 01:28:34.939 --> 01:28:37.079 their mental health and everything's, you know, 01:28:37.100 --> 01:28:40.239 squared away. And we can just focus on, you know, 01:28:40.239 --> 01:28:42.779 evolution as far as technology and training and 01:28:42.779 --> 01:28:46.270 knowledge sharing. But as pointed out, if not 01:28:46.270 --> 01:28:48.210 me, then who? Who the hell is just going to say 01:28:48.210 --> 01:28:51.550 this isn't working? Fundamentally, the way you're 01:28:51.550 --> 01:28:53.850 doing it isn't working. And if you look in, I'm 01:28:53.850 --> 01:28:55.689 sure you've heard it in law enforcement, in fire 01:28:55.689 --> 01:28:59.430 especially, we have an immense recruitment crisis, 01:28:59.510 --> 01:29:01.909 an immense retention crisis. People aren't staying 01:29:01.909 --> 01:29:05.710 their full 20, 25 years, a lot of them. And at 01:29:05.710 --> 01:29:07.689 what point do you take ownership and say enough 01:29:07.689 --> 01:29:10.500 is enough? And how many funerals? do we need 01:29:10.500 --> 01:29:12.319 like i've said this like tongue in cheek well 01:29:12.319 --> 01:29:14.260 give me a number how many dead firefighters do 01:29:14.260 --> 01:29:16.100 we need for you to start fucking changing all 01:29:16.100 --> 01:29:18.140 right we'll just you know any volunteers to make 01:29:18.140 --> 01:29:20.279 that number all right now we're good now we're 01:29:20.279 --> 01:29:23.319 going to change so this is what's so maddening 01:29:23.319 --> 01:29:25.779 i was trying to articulate what i was trying 01:29:25.779 --> 01:29:30.680 to say but um is it's the ones that did the job 01:29:30.680 --> 01:29:33.260 for the right reason to get so angry about this 01:29:33.260 --> 01:29:35.960 because as you said it's the bullies that we're 01:29:35.960 --> 01:29:38.960 up against it's the cowards And when you care 01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:40.779 about human beings to the point where you will 01:29:40.779 --> 01:29:43.460 kiss your wife or your husband goodbye and hug 01:29:43.460 --> 01:29:45.500 your kids and then walk out the door for 12 or 01:29:45.500 --> 01:29:48.779 24 hours to go and risk your life for a complete 01:29:48.779 --> 01:29:54.300 stranger, then if the environment is so toxic 01:29:54.300 --> 01:29:56.340 that the very men and women that you adore to 01:29:56.340 --> 01:29:58.340 the left and your right of you are dropping like 01:29:58.340 --> 01:30:00.619 flies because of that, and the people that go 01:30:00.619 --> 01:30:03.619 home at five o 'clock every night and sleep in 01:30:03.619 --> 01:30:06.560 their own bed with their family are... pushing 01:30:06.560 --> 01:30:09.640 against the solutions then yeah you have to dip 01:30:09.640 --> 01:30:11.579 your knuckles in glass and you got to start swinging 01:30:11.579 --> 01:30:14.159 that's just what so this is the thing is like 01:30:14.159 --> 01:30:17.020 it's not coming from a place of empty criticism 01:30:17.020 --> 01:30:19.939 it's just we tried the softly gently approach 01:30:19.939 --> 01:30:23.239 and you didn't fucking listen so now as you said 01:30:23.239 --> 01:30:25.380 you've got to call some of these people out and 01:30:25.380 --> 01:30:27.920 you don't want to add shame but sometimes shame 01:30:27.920 --> 01:30:29.979 is what what needs to happen and locally right 01:30:29.979 --> 01:30:32.060 now i hope to god there's finally a spotlight 01:30:32.060 --> 01:30:35.659 put on the lack of leadership It's causing all 01:30:35.659 --> 01:30:38.600 these issues here and all these deaths, because, 01:30:38.659 --> 01:30:40.880 again, how many people have to die before you 01:30:40.880 --> 01:30:43.760 change? And if the answer is there aren't enough, 01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:46.159 then you do not deserve to be in that position. 01:30:46.859 --> 01:30:49.380 Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's why it's 01:30:49.380 --> 01:30:53.279 absolutely critical. Ours is called an association, 01:30:53.539 --> 01:30:57.649 but a police union in our. profession uh the 01:30:57.649 --> 01:30:59.390 same as fire or whatever else i think that's 01:30:59.390 --> 01:31:01.250 why those relationships in these associations 01:31:01.250 --> 01:31:04.369 are so incredible it's incredibly important the 01:31:04.369 --> 01:31:07.609 power that associations so i was on as a director 01:31:07.609 --> 01:31:09.569 for the canadian police association as well so 01:31:09.569 --> 01:31:13.170 the national body for three years and i can tell 01:31:13.170 --> 01:31:16.390 you our national president tom stamatakis uh 01:31:16.390 --> 01:31:19.270 you know he's he's dialed in all over the country 01:31:19.270 --> 01:31:25.819 and i just think And for me, it was great because 01:31:25.819 --> 01:31:28.899 I could come in after being away for so long. 01:31:29.479 --> 01:31:33.680 And quite frankly, I just said, this is where 01:31:33.680 --> 01:31:35.939 we need to go. I didn't have to work my way up 01:31:35.939 --> 01:31:39.340 in the sense of having to befriend this person, 01:31:39.340 --> 01:31:40.840 that person, whatever. And I'm not suggesting 01:31:40.840 --> 01:31:43.220 that's how others got there. But what I am saying, 01:31:43.220 --> 01:31:44.779 though, is that I think it's really critically 01:31:44.779 --> 01:31:50.659 important. unions and police and the associations 01:31:50.659 --> 01:31:53.479 in the first responder community because the 01:31:53.479 --> 01:31:57.720 difference that you can make if you make these 01:31:57.720 --> 01:31:59.939 relationships I've worked with other police association 01:31:59.939 --> 01:32:03.779 executives where I see that they're having trouble 01:32:03.779 --> 01:32:05.500 within their respective services where they're 01:32:05.500 --> 01:32:07.359 not getting the respect that they deserve and 01:32:07.359 --> 01:32:10.119 we've had fireside chats and we've talked about 01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:15.180 relationships and how some of these people that 01:32:15.180 --> 01:32:17.199 get in these positions are narcissists but they 01:32:17.199 --> 01:32:22.520 also there's some ego in there too. So if you 01:32:22.520 --> 01:32:27.520 use that and you say, okay, this person in this 01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:29.859 service, and like I said, most of the people 01:32:29.859 --> 01:32:31.960 that I deal with, and I keep saying these disclaimers 01:32:31.960 --> 01:32:33.579 because it's true, they've always been decent 01:32:33.579 --> 01:32:37.800 to me. I see them as many, but not all are. And 01:32:37.800 --> 01:32:40.760 so you're able to take these people and use their 01:32:40.760 --> 01:32:44.739 egos against them. So all of a sudden, when they 01:32:44.739 --> 01:32:47.180 see that your friends, and I'll go into it again, 01:32:47.949 --> 01:32:50.189 as a police association president when you're 01:32:50.189 --> 01:32:53.670 friends with okay who's that person's area of 01:32:53.670 --> 01:32:57.109 influence who who who who do they directly indirectly 01:32:57.109 --> 01:33:00.630 sort of report to respect all these sorts of 01:33:00.630 --> 01:33:05.270 things now go out go out and be friends if not 01:33:05.270 --> 01:33:07.729 even better friends with those people and you 01:33:07.729 --> 01:33:11.149 watch what happens you watch how all of a sudden 01:33:11.149 --> 01:33:14.050 boom because they will look at you and they say 01:33:14.050 --> 01:33:15.729 they'll be out of function you don't even have 01:33:15.729 --> 01:33:19.520 to be um It's overbearing about it. You just 01:33:19.520 --> 01:33:21.560 have to work your way into that circle and do 01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:23.659 these different things in a professional capacity. 01:33:24.239 --> 01:33:26.680 And you have to outread. My mom always says to 01:33:26.680 --> 01:33:28.199 me, she goes, you just have to outreasonable 01:33:28.199 --> 01:33:32.380 other people. And as soon as they look around 01:33:32.380 --> 01:33:34.800 and most of them are smart enough to go, oh, 01:33:34.859 --> 01:33:37.979 wait a second. Why is why is he or she with that 01:33:37.979 --> 01:33:43.000 person? And you can force that. behavior change. 01:33:43.279 --> 01:33:47.340 And so I love working with association people 01:33:47.340 --> 01:33:51.100 that have come to me. And my advice is always, 01:33:51.140 --> 01:33:53.140 we have these conversations and these firesides, 01:33:53.159 --> 01:33:57.399 and some of them have employed those, let's say 01:33:57.399 --> 01:34:00.760 tactics, but that way of being. And all of a 01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:02.340 sudden I see now, and there's one particular 01:34:02.340 --> 01:34:05.100 example I'm thinking of right now, where all 01:34:05.100 --> 01:34:07.579 of a sudden within a short period of time, guess 01:34:07.579 --> 01:34:10.689 what? they have this, I see all these pictures 01:34:10.689 --> 01:34:12.569 where they're together now. I see all these pictures 01:34:12.569 --> 01:34:16.890 where, you know, oh, they've got this incredible 01:34:16.890 --> 01:34:19.689 relationship now. And a lot of that was born 01:34:19.689 --> 01:34:22.789 from that person's hard work in developing those 01:34:22.789 --> 01:34:26.890 relationships with those people that are influential 01:34:26.890 --> 01:34:29.369 to the person that you're having that discord 01:34:29.369 --> 01:34:33.829 with. And so I think when one door closes, association 01:34:33.829 --> 01:34:36.010 leadership is absolutely critical to the component 01:34:36.010 --> 01:34:38.859 of this, but where one door closes, I always 01:34:38.859 --> 01:34:40.619 enjoy the challenge of finding out, okay, which 01:34:40.619 --> 01:34:42.640 door are we going to go through to leverage those 01:34:42.640 --> 01:34:45.260 relationships, to bring this person in line with 01:34:45.260 --> 01:34:46.979 treating people the way that they should be treated 01:34:46.979 --> 01:34:48.539 and never taking away the dignity of another 01:34:48.539 --> 01:34:50.720 human being. So that's, to me, that's always 01:34:50.720 --> 01:34:53.579 been my response and my answer. And it works. 01:34:54.800 --> 01:34:57.279 Absolutely. Well, I want to hit one more area 01:34:57.279 --> 01:34:59.279 and then, and I'd love to actually summarize, 01:34:59.420 --> 01:35:01.979 you know, what you've created, you know, you 01:35:01.979 --> 01:35:03.720 collectively have created as far as the mental 01:35:03.720 --> 01:35:06.600 health resources in your area. But you've alluded 01:35:06.600 --> 01:35:08.880 a few times now on the indigenous population. 01:35:09.140 --> 01:35:11.579 And it's been interesting because that's not 01:35:11.579 --> 01:35:14.199 actually even a group that I'm able to really 01:35:14.199 --> 01:35:17.220 get guests from very often. I don't know if there's 01:35:17.220 --> 01:35:20.039 an element of distrust or what it is, but several 01:35:20.039 --> 01:35:23.199 people I've reached out just didn't come back. 01:35:23.420 --> 01:35:26.859 So sadly, I'm usually listening to, more often 01:35:26.859 --> 01:35:28.560 than not, law enforcement officers, sometimes 01:35:28.560 --> 01:35:32.619 it's a fire paramedic. But you do hear a lot 01:35:32.619 --> 01:35:35.239 of the struggles in some of these communities, 01:35:35.579 --> 01:35:37.340 you know, the alcoholism, the domestic violence. 01:35:37.399 --> 01:35:40.760 And if we talk about moral injury and loss of 01:35:40.760 --> 01:35:44.100 tribe, well, I mean, that's a very specific label 01:35:44.100 --> 01:35:45.739 in some of these areas. You know, some of these 01:35:45.739 --> 01:35:48.239 people's cultures were literally, there was an 01:35:48.239 --> 01:35:52.039 attempt to smite their entire existence off the 01:35:52.039 --> 01:35:55.149 face of this continent. So talk to me. I mean, 01:35:55.170 --> 01:35:57.250 it can be the highs, it can be lows, whatever 01:35:57.250 --> 01:35:59.189 it is. But what are some of the things that people 01:35:59.189 --> 01:36:01.930 need to know about indigenous populations in 01:36:01.930 --> 01:36:04.189 Canada as far as through your lived experience? 01:36:05.989 --> 01:36:10.149 Wow. Even to know where to start to answer something 01:36:10.149 --> 01:36:15.649 like that. First off, you know, God gave you 01:36:15.649 --> 01:36:19.630 two ears and one mouth for a reason, right? And 01:36:19.630 --> 01:36:22.310 I found from my experiences, and this is just 01:36:22.310 --> 01:36:26.409 me, I went to university in Thunder Bay. We had 01:36:26.409 --> 01:36:29.810 a small Indigenous community in Port Perry, the 01:36:29.810 --> 01:36:32.710 Mississaugas of Scugog Island First Nation, where 01:36:32.710 --> 01:36:38.470 I'm from. And, you know, I had known some folks 01:36:38.470 --> 01:36:41.229 from that community, but certainly growing up, 01:36:41.250 --> 01:36:44.470 going to a university, at that time it was about 01:36:44.470 --> 01:36:48.109 10 % where it was First Nations, Inuit and Métis. 01:36:49.619 --> 01:36:54.000 persons that attended university. And there's 01:36:54.000 --> 01:36:56.939 a significant Indigenous population in Thunder 01:36:56.939 --> 01:36:59.560 Bay and surrounding areas. So when you go to 01:36:59.560 --> 01:37:06.880 Thunder Bay, it's very much Thunder Bay. And 01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:11.600 I love it. And at university, though, when I 01:37:11.600 --> 01:37:13.300 got into student politics, I was talking earlier. 01:37:14.140 --> 01:37:16.619 And I represented at that time an organization 01:37:16.619 --> 01:37:18.819 called the Lakehead University Native Student 01:37:18.819 --> 01:37:20.920 Association. It was called Loonside. I'm not 01:37:20.920 --> 01:37:25.479 sure what it's called today. And I became really 01:37:25.479 --> 01:37:27.800 good friends with a woman with the name of Linda 01:37:27.800 --> 01:37:32.159 Henry, and who's with the creator now. And God 01:37:32.159 --> 01:37:34.760 bless her. She was incredible. But we really 01:37:34.760 --> 01:37:42.149 got along awesome, awesomely. When I was done 01:37:42.149 --> 01:37:45.869 in May of 94, we went home to her home community, 01:37:45.989 --> 01:37:48.670 a place called Frenchman's Head, Laksool First 01:37:48.670 --> 01:37:51.970 Nation, which is in northwestern Ontario. I was 01:37:51.970 --> 01:37:56.210 there for a few days on a reserve. I'd never 01:37:56.210 --> 01:38:00.569 had spent any significant time on a remote reserve 01:38:00.569 --> 01:38:03.369 before. I was hanging out with her and her family. 01:38:04.250 --> 01:38:08.920 I mentioned earlier I didn't hunt. I went out 01:38:08.920 --> 01:38:11.760 one day with her family and we went out hunting 01:38:11.760 --> 01:38:19.119 and, you know, it was in basically, you know, 01:38:19.159 --> 01:38:21.239 it was sustenance hunting. We were out, we got 01:38:21.239 --> 01:38:24.199 some ducks, we brought them back, cooked them 01:38:24.199 --> 01:38:26.760 on the open fire and we walked through the community. 01:38:27.279 --> 01:38:30.060 And I talk a little bit about this in my book. 01:38:30.159 --> 01:38:34.159 It's just in, it just, it was such an incredible, 01:38:34.260 --> 01:38:38.159 overpowering experience. We found an eagle feather 01:38:38.159 --> 01:38:40.300 underneath an eagle's nest, and she got that 01:38:40.300 --> 01:38:43.380 for me, and she beaded it. And actually, I have 01:38:43.380 --> 01:38:48.560 it. Excuse me. I just happen to have it with 01:38:48.560 --> 01:38:51.619 me, actually, right here. This is my office a 01:38:51.619 --> 01:38:57.539 lot of the times. So she made this for me and 01:38:57.539 --> 01:39:03.000 had wrote on that, Faith, if you take good care 01:39:03.000 --> 01:39:05.220 of this gift, guaranteed it will take good care 01:39:05.220 --> 01:39:12.289 of you. your friend, Linda. And as you can see, 01:39:12.369 --> 01:39:18.050 like I said, this is complete. She did the beadwork, 01:39:18.170 --> 01:39:22.430 and you've got your eagle feather. This eagle 01:39:22.430 --> 01:39:25.789 feather is 31 years old, and it has been with 01:39:25.789 --> 01:39:32.409 me to so many different places of ceremony and 01:39:32.409 --> 01:39:35.270 given me strength in times when I've needed it. 01:39:36.060 --> 01:39:38.420 And at that time, she started telling me about 01:39:38.420 --> 01:39:41.380 residential schools. And I didn't know anything 01:39:41.380 --> 01:39:43.180 about that. I mean, it was nothing that we were 01:39:43.180 --> 01:39:47.520 ever taught. And she was, you know, like so many 01:39:47.520 --> 01:39:49.239 other people, she was a little bit older than 01:39:49.239 --> 01:39:51.859 I was. So she had, you know, she would tell me 01:39:51.859 --> 01:39:54.539 stories about, you know, them putting sort of 01:39:54.539 --> 01:39:57.149 needles. in her tongue so she wouldn't speak 01:39:57.149 --> 01:39:59.369 Ojibwe and trying to stop her from speaking her 01:39:59.369 --> 01:40:01.310 language. And she would tell me these things 01:40:01.310 --> 01:40:04.329 at the time. This was in 94. The last residential 01:40:04.329 --> 01:40:11.890 school in Canada closed in 1996. Crazy. So, you 01:40:11.890 --> 01:40:16.229 know, so I learned from her firsthand and her 01:40:16.229 --> 01:40:19.689 family who shared some stories with me that I'll 01:40:19.689 --> 01:40:25.279 just keep them with me. But they... You know, 01:40:25.340 --> 01:40:28.399 it was always, it was never lost on me. So when 01:40:28.399 --> 01:40:32.359 I worked the highway, I had the opportunity when 01:40:32.359 --> 01:40:34.600 I first got on the job, there was Chippewa, Muncie 01:40:34.600 --> 01:40:37.079 and Oneida. And there were three separate communities 01:40:37.079 --> 01:40:39.619 together outside of London, Ontario. And I would 01:40:39.619 --> 01:40:42.399 often find myself in the community, supporting 01:40:42.399 --> 01:40:44.800 the community, supporting First Nations officers 01:40:44.800 --> 01:40:48.159 who worked in those communities. And so in every 01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:50.479 community, obviously is different. It's like 01:40:50.479 --> 01:40:53.819 any other community that's out there. But the 01:40:53.819 --> 01:40:57.739 one thing that is always true is respecting your 01:40:57.739 --> 01:41:01.220 elders and listening more than you speak. And 01:41:01.220 --> 01:41:04.359 so I remember one day there was a red -tailed 01:41:04.359 --> 01:41:07.699 hawk that had been on the highway. You know, 01:41:07.739 --> 01:41:10.640 sometimes the birds of prey get wrapped up and 01:41:10.640 --> 01:41:12.239 like if a tractor trailer goes by, it gets caught 01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:13.680 in the wind and it breaks its neck and it started 01:41:13.680 --> 01:41:15.359 lying there. But the bird was in beautiful shape. 01:41:15.699 --> 01:41:19.859 And I was in uniform and I drove up to the community 01:41:19.859 --> 01:41:22.729 and the chief of the... reserve came out of the 01:41:22.729 --> 01:41:26.369 territory and uh i just remember i'd never met 01:41:26.369 --> 01:41:29.210 him before and i just i said to him i said i 01:41:29.210 --> 01:41:31.189 want to give you this and he says he was really 01:41:31.189 --> 01:41:32.829 simple it was just like thank you for thinking 01:41:32.829 --> 01:41:37.170 of my people you know and really i credit that 01:41:37.170 --> 01:41:41.149 just that small experience with that a cultural 01:41:41.149 --> 01:41:45.409 understanding with the teachings that i had received 01:41:45.409 --> 01:41:48.529 from my friend linda and and her community and 01:41:48.529 --> 01:41:51.840 people and and and so I really think that's what 01:41:51.840 --> 01:41:56.340 a lot of, I've always been very, very, it's funny 01:41:56.340 --> 01:41:59.060 at my retirement, my, my buddy Vinnie, who's 01:41:59.060 --> 01:42:02.739 he, he retired as well. We were classmates and 01:42:02.739 --> 01:42:04.220 he was talking about the first time he ever met 01:42:04.220 --> 01:42:06.800 me. And I was smudging sweetgrass in 1995 in 01:42:06.800 --> 01:42:09.479 the residence in Brampton. And he was telling 01:42:09.479 --> 01:42:11.960 this story. And I, not that I forgot about it. 01:42:11.960 --> 01:42:13.119 I just hadn't thought about the story in a long 01:42:13.119 --> 01:42:14.760 time. And the commissioner's there and my family's 01:42:14.760 --> 01:42:16.659 everybody else and all my buddies and they're 01:42:16.659 --> 01:42:19.159 listening to this story. And, and that's how 01:42:19.159 --> 01:42:22.000 I became friends with, my lifelong friend Vinny, 01:42:22.000 --> 01:42:25.180 and he's just a superhuman being, but we met 01:42:25.180 --> 01:42:27.779 through that and by smudging and he could smell 01:42:27.779 --> 01:42:29.439 it. And who knows, I may not have met him the 01:42:29.439 --> 01:42:31.260 same way and had the same relationship. Right. 01:42:31.300 --> 01:42:34.840 So I think when we open ourselves up to the fact 01:42:34.840 --> 01:42:39.239 that there are different experiences and in histories, 01:42:39.359 --> 01:42:42.180 some of which are not written in textbooks and 01:42:42.180 --> 01:42:47.369 you listen to people, I think it helps us. not 01:42:47.369 --> 01:42:49.810 only be better at our jobs but i think be better 01:42:49.810 --> 01:42:55.750 human beings and and um you know and then you 01:42:55.750 --> 01:42:59.229 know i so i just think when you're talking about 01:42:59.229 --> 01:43:02.409 these sorts of things and the experiences that 01:43:02.409 --> 01:43:05.470 i've had to answer your question it it would 01:43:05.470 --> 01:43:07.609 take probably a long time to be able to talk 01:43:07.609 --> 01:43:09.869 about i i was fortunate so when i was in the 01:43:09.869 --> 01:43:13.970 academy i then had us a comment uh at that time 01:43:13.970 --> 01:43:16.569 was called the aboriginal policing bureau it's 01:43:16.569 --> 01:43:18.989 now it's not they don't use the word aboriginally 01:43:18.989 --> 01:43:22.409 more it's indigenous but i i had the honor of 01:43:22.409 --> 01:43:25.630 being a part -time fire keeper at sweat lodge 01:43:25.630 --> 01:43:27.689 ceremonies because they took our officers and 01:43:27.689 --> 01:43:30.930 civilians for five days up to a place called 01:43:30.930 --> 01:43:33.810 mattawa ontario at samuel champlain park at that 01:43:33.810 --> 01:43:37.329 time and uh they would have sweat lodge ceremonies 01:43:37.329 --> 01:43:41.210 and being um you know facilitated by one of the 01:43:41.210 --> 01:43:43.350 elders and i worked with another indigenous male 01:43:43.350 --> 01:43:51.260 a great guy who I assisted him in being a non 01:43:51.260 --> 01:43:55.220 -Indigenous person, like I am, these teachings 01:43:55.220 --> 01:44:00.380 still are so valuable. And so fast forward to, 01:44:00.520 --> 01:44:03.659 you know, any community. So I then had the honour 01:44:03.659 --> 01:44:06.420 of going up to another community called Pikangikum 01:44:06.420 --> 01:44:09.039 First Nation, and it's very remote. It's fly 01:44:09.039 --> 01:44:10.880 -in or you drive in in the wintertime on the 01:44:10.880 --> 01:44:13.659 ice road, or at that time you take a boat to 01:44:13.659 --> 01:44:19.140 get in there. And it has really interesting dynamics 01:44:19.140 --> 01:44:21.000 there. And I've been there four times. They usually 01:44:21.000 --> 01:44:22.920 fly us up at two -week intervals. Many officers 01:44:22.920 --> 01:44:26.840 have in the OPP. And it's supplemented the supports 01:44:26.840 --> 01:44:29.579 provided to that community. And once again, it's 01:44:29.579 --> 01:44:34.479 just some of the challenges that you find in 01:44:34.479 --> 01:44:40.979 some of the communities. We hear things that 01:44:40.979 --> 01:44:47.680 are stated very ignorantly by people. And I have 01:44:47.680 --> 01:44:49.720 no problems calling that out, even if it's amongst 01:44:49.720 --> 01:44:53.140 people that I love and respect. And, you know, 01:44:53.220 --> 01:44:56.739 when you look at the residential school system 01:44:56.739 --> 01:45:01.239 and you look at the prohibition of culture, tradition, 01:45:01.479 --> 01:45:05.260 ceremony, language, and you look at the imposition, 01:45:05.399 --> 01:45:10.539 intergenerational trauma, when you look at what 01:45:10.539 --> 01:45:14.350 I said earlier about the elder. The elder who 01:45:14.350 --> 01:45:17.189 told me what you do today affects the next seven 01:45:17.189 --> 01:45:21.069 generations is also the elder that was running 01:45:21.069 --> 01:45:25.409 the sweat lodge ceremonies for our people. And 01:45:25.409 --> 01:45:29.369 so I think when they talk about reconciliation 01:45:29.369 --> 01:45:32.350 today, we have a very strong Indigenous policing 01:45:32.350 --> 01:45:34.010 bureau today in the Ontario Provincial Police. 01:45:34.130 --> 01:45:38.510 It's come light years. There's been some incredible 01:45:38.510 --> 01:45:43.109 leadership. A friend of mine. uh is uh the commander 01:45:43.109 --> 01:45:45.689 of the indigenous policing bureau good guy extremely 01:45:45.689 --> 01:45:50.390 knowledgeable extremely well respected and just 01:45:50.390 --> 01:45:54.449 a source of incredible information and uh so 01:45:54.449 --> 01:45:58.609 i i think i'm proud to be part of an organization 01:45:58.609 --> 01:46:04.869 that has come that far um for me it's it's always 01:46:04.869 --> 01:46:08.560 and that's why when That's one of the reasons 01:46:08.560 --> 01:46:11.520 why when I sat in my office and I was talking 01:46:11.520 --> 01:46:14.460 about the culture of the organization, a lot 01:46:14.460 --> 01:46:18.039 of that cultural appreciation comes from my teachings 01:46:18.039 --> 01:46:20.979 from Linda and from other Indigenous people that 01:46:20.979 --> 01:46:23.340 I've had the privilege to meet and to listen 01:46:23.340 --> 01:46:30.680 to. And so when you start blending that, so you 01:46:30.680 --> 01:46:33.420 just have to realize that, especially when you're 01:46:33.420 --> 01:46:38.909 in these positions, So, you know, as a white 01:46:38.909 --> 01:46:42.569 male, yeah, I'm the president, but I represent 01:46:42.569 --> 01:46:46.489 people that, that from all different walks of 01:46:46.489 --> 01:46:48.869 life and all different belief systems, all different 01:46:48.869 --> 01:46:50.770 religions, all different, like there's so many 01:46:50.770 --> 01:46:52.810 different things that are happening, but there's 01:46:52.810 --> 01:46:55.909 also a lot of commonalities. And so I think from 01:46:55.909 --> 01:46:59.829 that perspective, you know, I'm proud to see 01:46:59.829 --> 01:47:01.630 where the OPP has gone. I'm proud to see where 01:47:01.630 --> 01:47:05.109 the OPP association has gone. Is there work to 01:47:05.109 --> 01:47:07.729 do? Absolutely. There's still always more that 01:47:07.729 --> 01:47:12.670 can be done. But I've actually, anytime I've 01:47:12.670 --> 01:47:14.789 ever been on Indigenous territory, having the 01:47:14.789 --> 01:47:17.630 privilege to police there, I've actually always 01:47:17.630 --> 01:47:20.229 felt probably the most comfortable, to be honest. 01:47:20.770 --> 01:47:25.189 And nothing but respect for the communities and 01:47:25.189 --> 01:47:29.229 the elders and really, really... you know, really, 01:47:29.329 --> 01:47:30.949 really positive interactions. I think sometimes 01:47:30.949 --> 01:47:34.949 people, it's easy, and I've heard these generalizations. 01:47:35.050 --> 01:47:37.390 People have generalized, oh, you know, this community 01:47:37.390 --> 01:47:40.130 or that community. Well, you show me a community 01:47:40.130 --> 01:47:42.130 outside of an Indigenous community that doesn't 01:47:42.130 --> 01:47:45.149 have, take any small town. There's politics. 01:47:45.430 --> 01:47:47.810 There's services that aren't being delivered. 01:47:47.930 --> 01:47:50.829 Sometimes there's behavior that's happening within 01:47:50.829 --> 01:47:52.970 a non -Indigenous community that's unacceptable. 01:47:53.489 --> 01:47:56.399 So to think or to try to hold. other people or 01:47:56.399 --> 01:47:58.300 communities to the same level that you're not 01:47:58.300 --> 01:48:01.520 holding other people to, I think that's a starting 01:48:01.520 --> 01:48:03.420 point or a jump off point to say, you know what, 01:48:03.560 --> 01:48:07.539 take a good look in the mirror. So I think to 01:48:07.539 --> 01:48:09.380 answer your question, I think that's kind of 01:48:09.380 --> 01:48:13.659 always been my way. And I tell people, go out 01:48:13.659 --> 01:48:16.319 and experience these things for yourself. Go 01:48:16.319 --> 01:48:21.600 meet some people. Go listen to some people. Absolutely. 01:48:22.119 --> 01:48:25.550 Well, Before we go to closing questions and talking 01:48:25.550 --> 01:48:28.069 about your book, just give me the bullet points 01:48:28.069 --> 01:48:30.829 of that encompassing system that you guys have 01:48:30.829 --> 01:48:32.869 now so that people listening can understand, 01:48:33.090 --> 01:48:35.029 you know, all the different tendrils of this, 01:48:35.050 --> 01:48:38.770 these resources that they have available to them 01:48:38.770 --> 01:48:44.189 in your law enforcement agency. Yeah, so the 01:48:44.189 --> 01:48:47.729 whole purpose of the book for me, it's multifaceted. 01:48:48.500 --> 01:48:51.880 First and foremost, all the proceeds go to organizations, 01:48:52.359 --> 01:48:55.520 survivors of law enforcement, which includes 01:48:55.520 --> 01:48:58.020 many women whose husbands were killed in the 01:48:58.020 --> 01:49:00.640 line of duty. The second organization is Canada 01:49:00.640 --> 01:49:03.899 Beyond the Blue. So they support families, bringing 01:49:03.899 --> 01:49:07.960 supports and services to those, bringing awareness 01:49:07.960 --> 01:49:11.119 to those who have died as a result of the line 01:49:11.119 --> 01:49:14.369 of duty, suicide. And Boots on the Ground, which 01:49:14.369 --> 01:49:16.550 is a support organization as well. So first, 01:49:16.649 --> 01:49:19.029 I think it's really important to say that first 01:49:19.029 --> 01:49:22.590 and foremost. The other purpose of writing the 01:49:22.590 --> 01:49:27.550 book was to explain sort of how what we dealt 01:49:27.550 --> 01:49:30.970 with and what we were faced with, how we dealt 01:49:30.970 --> 01:49:34.550 with it, and then the result of it. And so say 01:49:34.550 --> 01:49:37.630 you're having a problem in the United States 01:49:37.630 --> 01:49:42.539 in some fire. hall or region or police or paramedic 01:49:42.539 --> 01:49:45.479 or first responder, military, whatever, you can 01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:49.479 take this book and you can, it's, it's, it's 01:49:49.479 --> 01:49:53.079 like a two hour read. And you can, you can look 01:49:53.079 --> 01:49:56.460 at and see how we handled that. And some of the 01:49:56.460 --> 01:49:58.539 stuff I've talked to you already today about, 01:49:58.579 --> 01:50:03.659 but the gist of this book is our commissioner 01:50:03.659 --> 01:50:05.939 of the Ontario provincial police, Thomas Carrick. 01:50:07.420 --> 01:50:09.439 I was saying he's the president of the Canadian 01:50:09.439 --> 01:50:11.479 Association of Chiefs of Police, well -respected, 01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:14.180 top cop in the country as far as I'm concerned, 01:50:14.420 --> 01:50:18.359 does the foreword to the book. And then chapter 01:50:18.359 --> 01:50:22.979 one is one of our widows whose husband died by 01:50:22.979 --> 01:50:26.739 suicide on the job. And so then from there, just 01:50:26.739 --> 01:50:30.060 a little bit about my background, but it's weaved 01:50:30.060 --> 01:50:34.260 in such a way that I wanted to write this book 01:50:34.260 --> 01:50:37.270 with my writer, Laurie Stevens. And I mentioned 01:50:37.270 --> 01:50:41.409 her name only because I mentioned her name only 01:50:41.409 --> 01:50:44.470 because and for the primary reason is that I 01:50:44.470 --> 01:50:46.829 couldn't have written this book by myself. And 01:50:46.829 --> 01:50:49.609 so respect to her. And she did her work pro bono 01:50:49.609 --> 01:50:53.010 as well on the betterment of the first responders. 01:50:53.270 --> 01:50:56.770 And then it basically talks about coming into 01:50:56.770 --> 01:50:59.529 and becoming a police officer and some of those 01:50:59.529 --> 01:51:02.090 experiences, but then becoming president and 01:51:02.090 --> 01:51:05.729 then coming into the 2018 suicide crisis. And 01:51:05.729 --> 01:51:09.930 what I was facing as president and we were facing 01:51:09.930 --> 01:51:14.189 as an association and the void that I had to, 01:51:14.229 --> 01:51:18.029 and I talked about this earlier, we had to move 01:51:18.029 --> 01:51:21.970 forward in many ways on our own because we went 01:51:21.970 --> 01:51:24.310 through five commissioners within that period 01:51:24.310 --> 01:51:29.310 of time. And initially we were working with a 01:51:29.310 --> 01:51:31.989 commissioner in 2018 who later retired and then 01:51:31.989 --> 01:51:36.430 there's five of them. That's unprecedented. in 01:51:36.430 --> 01:51:40.850 an organization in the midst of the worst suicide 01:51:40.850 --> 01:51:42.770 and mental health crisis facing the organization. 01:51:43.029 --> 01:51:45.989 And anyone can argue that with me all they want. 01:51:46.069 --> 01:51:49.710 There's no argument. So our response to it was, 01:51:49.810 --> 01:51:53.630 and as I was mentioning, is basically we needed 01:51:53.630 --> 01:51:56.029 to come up with something that would address 01:51:56.029 --> 01:51:58.869 in the concierge model, the care management model, 01:51:58.930 --> 01:52:01.850 and where that came from, and I touched on it 01:52:01.850 --> 01:52:05.970 briefly, was... Going to one of the funerals 01:52:05.970 --> 01:52:10.250 and meeting one of the widows and listening to 01:52:10.250 --> 01:52:15.130 her try to articulate the situation with her 01:52:15.130 --> 01:52:18.590 husband and how they had a hell of a time trying 01:52:18.590 --> 01:52:21.449 to find and navigate the effective resources 01:52:21.449 --> 01:52:29.310 required for him. And I remember a friend of 01:52:29.310 --> 01:52:36.109 mine who called me up. and her husband was in 01:52:36.109 --> 01:52:39.310 pretty tough shape. He's a police officer. And 01:52:39.310 --> 01:52:42.069 I was able, through our benefits team, we had 01:52:42.069 --> 01:52:45.430 an incredible benefits team at the office, get 01:52:45.430 --> 01:52:48.170 him, this is before the program came online, 01:52:48.529 --> 01:52:51.630 but to be able to get him the supports that he 01:52:51.630 --> 01:52:55.130 required. And I looked at the two, and because 01:52:55.130 --> 01:52:57.409 I represented thousands of people, it's impossible 01:52:57.409 --> 01:53:01.109 for me to know everybody. But in this case, she 01:53:01.109 --> 01:53:04.369 knew me. And she could make the call. In the 01:53:04.369 --> 01:53:08.189 other case, she didn't know me. And I said to 01:53:08.189 --> 01:53:11.869 myself, I go, this is unacceptable. We need to 01:53:11.869 --> 01:53:14.829 have a central point that people can call at 01:53:14.829 --> 01:53:17.850 any time of the day and to be able to immediately 01:53:17.850 --> 01:53:22.850 get connected with the resources they need. That's 01:53:22.850 --> 01:53:25.390 sort of what this book is about. It talks about 01:53:25.390 --> 01:53:27.770 the statistics. It's been operating for five 01:53:27.770 --> 01:53:30.590 years. As I said, it was up to 4 ,000 members 01:53:30.590 --> 01:53:32.930 and their families. The beauty of this program 01:53:32.930 --> 01:53:36.529 is we still have about 60 % of the people that 01:53:36.529 --> 01:53:39.569 participated in this program since year one are 01:53:39.569 --> 01:53:42.449 still in the program. So they continue to receive 01:53:42.449 --> 01:53:45.409 emails. They continue to receive phone calls. 01:53:45.590 --> 01:53:48.539 They continue to engage. Not all of them are 01:53:48.539 --> 01:53:51.979 off. Some are off. Some are back. And so this 01:53:51.979 --> 01:53:56.199 program keeps people in the workplace. This helps 01:53:56.199 --> 01:53:59.180 people that are out of the workplace. This program 01:53:59.180 --> 01:54:03.619 helps people get back into the workplace. Am 01:54:03.619 --> 01:54:07.640 I saying that this thing does everything for 01:54:07.640 --> 01:54:10.840 everybody? No, because I don't think there is 01:54:10.840 --> 01:54:14.720 something like that. But there isn't anything 01:54:14.720 --> 01:54:17.819 that I can think of. That this doesn't offer. 01:54:18.199 --> 01:54:21.119 And so when we talk about our heads hitting a 01:54:21.119 --> 01:54:23.659 pillow at the end of the night, before we had 01:54:23.659 --> 01:54:27.100 this, I couldn't sleep. I was worried. I was 01:54:27.100 --> 01:54:30.140 scared. We were losing members. We were losing 01:54:30.140 --> 01:54:32.460 people by the hundreds out of the workplace. 01:54:33.020 --> 01:54:35.680 So when you look at it, not even from a financial 01:54:35.680 --> 01:54:38.380 standpoint, first and foremost, to your point 01:54:38.380 --> 01:54:41.840 earlier, what is one life worth? It's worth whatever 01:54:41.840 --> 01:54:46.350 you're going to put into this. It's you do everything 01:54:46.350 --> 01:54:51.729 that you can to succeed and to make it more than 01:54:51.729 --> 01:54:54.770 just a mile wide and an inch deep. And so the 01:54:54.770 --> 01:54:57.229 financial aspect of things, because people say, 01:54:57.310 --> 01:55:00.010 well, how we can't afford that. We can't afford 01:55:00.010 --> 01:55:04.149 that. Think about people not being in the workplace. 01:55:04.510 --> 01:55:06.630 Think about all the overtime that you have to 01:55:06.630 --> 01:55:08.949 spend to bring people in. Think about the people 01:55:08.949 --> 01:55:11.649 you're burning out on top of that because they're 01:55:11.649 --> 01:55:14.699 coming in to backfill those people. Think about 01:55:14.699 --> 01:55:18.659 the work environment where you have all kinds 01:55:18.659 --> 01:55:20.659 of people that are finally on their days off 01:55:20.659 --> 01:55:24.119 and they're saying, you know, I'd love to help, 01:55:24.180 --> 01:55:27.520 but my days are coming in backfilling because 01:55:27.520 --> 01:55:29.979 there's a staffing crisis. You're done. Because 01:55:29.979 --> 01:55:33.039 if I don't draw a line somewhere, and it really 01:55:33.039 --> 01:55:36.119 puts people like ourselves that this is a calling, 01:55:36.319 --> 01:55:40.680 it puts us really in a conflictual position because 01:55:40.680 --> 01:55:45.590 our... As first responders, we want to help. 01:55:45.670 --> 01:55:47.609 We want to serve. We don't want to let people 01:55:47.609 --> 01:55:51.409 down. But you know what? More and more, especially 01:55:51.409 --> 01:55:53.569 with the new generation, and I do respect them 01:55:53.569 --> 01:55:57.189 for this very much, more willing to put on that 01:55:57.189 --> 01:55:59.449 oxygen mask and say, you know what? I need to 01:55:59.449 --> 01:56:02.689 take care of myself physically, mentally, and 01:56:02.689 --> 01:56:06.670 I cannot get burned out like in the past. And 01:56:06.670 --> 01:56:10.789 so that's a critical piece. This book here, and 01:56:10.789 --> 01:56:13.869 hopefully this isn't a shameless plug or anything 01:56:13.869 --> 01:56:15.430 like that, and you don't mind me raising it, 01:56:15.510 --> 01:56:22.210 is In Pursuit of Mental Wellness in the First 01:56:22.210 --> 01:56:24.609 Responder Community. It's on Amazon right now. 01:56:25.569 --> 01:56:29.829 Like I said, it's a couple -hour read, but I 01:56:29.829 --> 01:56:32.229 hope that if people are listening to this podcast, 01:56:32.350 --> 01:56:36.159 and I know they are, maybe they're having difficulties 01:56:36.159 --> 01:56:39.720 within their respective services. There's some 01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:41.439 really, really good ideas that can be pulled 01:56:41.439 --> 01:56:44.300 out of this. And I'm really proud of our team. 01:56:44.539 --> 01:56:46.380 I'm really proud of the people that have stepped 01:56:46.380 --> 01:56:50.920 up to use it. And I'm really proud of the high, 01:56:50.960 --> 01:56:53.539 high percentage of people that sing this program's 01:56:53.539 --> 01:56:57.640 praises because it takes that trust from others 01:56:57.640 --> 01:57:01.800 who use a program like this. If you don't have 01:57:01.800 --> 01:57:04.140 trust, you don't have anything. So there's absolute 01:57:04.140 --> 01:57:07.340 this program. I'm just I'm super proud of it. 01:57:07.619 --> 01:57:10.060 And, you know, if this is what I'm remembered 01:57:10.060 --> 01:57:14.079 for, if it's the only thing, I'm good with that. 01:57:14.420 --> 01:57:18.579 And, you know, I feel I feel like I can, you 01:57:18.579 --> 01:57:22.359 know, get into retirement and be very proud that 01:57:22.359 --> 01:57:24.859 I know that my fellow brothers and sisters that 01:57:24.859 --> 01:57:26.359 are putting it on the line each and every day, 01:57:26.380 --> 01:57:29.220 both physically and mentally, they've got some 01:57:29.220 --> 01:57:33.449 good fallbacks. Beautiful. For people listening, 01:57:33.649 --> 01:57:35.489 you said that the book was available on Amazon. 01:57:35.689 --> 01:57:37.510 What if they want to learn more about you or 01:57:37.510 --> 01:57:41.810 reach out to you? They're more than welcome to 01:57:41.810 --> 01:57:45.390 reach out to me at Rob K. Jameson, J -A -M -I 01:57:45.390 --> 01:57:52.090 -E -S -O -N, 8866 at gmail .com. And when you 01:57:52.090 --> 01:57:54.369 pull that up, you'll be able to the website for 01:57:54.369 --> 01:57:58.710 this as well. But yeah, there's lots of. And 01:57:58.710 --> 01:58:00.649 I would also encourage people as well, if they 01:58:00.649 --> 01:58:03.670 want, obviously, to do a search just on the Encompass 01:58:03.670 --> 01:58:07.710 program, E -N -C -O -M -P -A -S, the OPP Association. 01:58:08.689 --> 01:58:10.750 And there's lots of stuff that's out there. You 01:58:10.750 --> 01:58:12.789 can see firsthand some of the challenges. But 01:58:12.789 --> 01:58:17.170 certainly 10 years ago, day two, we were an organization, 01:58:17.210 --> 01:58:19.670 and I think from a leadership standpoint as well, 01:58:19.829 --> 01:58:24.689 of how do you rebuild something? to make it what 01:58:24.689 --> 01:58:27.430 it should be for the people that absolutely deserve 01:58:27.430 --> 01:58:31.810 it. And myself and the team of people I had around 01:58:31.810 --> 01:58:36.229 me really leaned in and did a deep dive. And 01:58:36.229 --> 01:58:38.609 when you look at where they are today, yeah, 01:58:38.670 --> 01:58:41.210 there's still more work to be done, but I'm really 01:58:41.210 --> 01:58:44.819 proud of the work that everyone has done. Well, 01:58:44.920 --> 01:58:46.800 I want to thank you so much. It's been such an 01:58:46.800 --> 01:58:48.939 interesting conversation, especially the parallel 01:58:48.939 --> 01:58:51.960 between some of your own mental health challenges 01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:54.319 and some of the solutions that you found, but 01:58:54.319 --> 01:58:57.859 then also the union element and how do you take 01:58:57.859 --> 01:59:00.420 something that has been kind of torn apart and 01:59:00.420 --> 01:59:02.340 start building those relationships and building 01:59:02.340 --> 01:59:05.779 that trust again. And then obviously the Encompass 01:59:05.779 --> 01:59:08.300 solutions that you've got in the book. So I want 01:59:08.300 --> 01:59:10.380 to thank you so much for being so generous with 01:59:10.380 --> 01:59:12.079 your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 01:59:12.079 --> 01:59:15.529 podcast today. Thank you, James. It's an absolute 01:59:15.529 --> 01:59:16.630 privilege to be on here.