WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by yet another company

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that I truly stand behind, and that is Levels.

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And Levels is going to be offering you, the Behind

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the Shield podcast audience, a discount that

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I will tell you about at the end of this introduction.

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Now, before I even dive into what Levels does,

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when I had a conversation with their CEO and

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founder, Josh Clemente, he underlined such an

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important topic. So many of us rely on visits

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to our physicians to tell us how we are doing,

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and that is so backward. I am an absolute believer

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in putting autonomy back into the hands of the

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individual so they can take care of their own

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health. Now, what Levels does is it gives us

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the metrics so we can see exactly how everything

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is internally. So they help people improve their

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health through continuous glucose monitoring,

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comprehensive lab tests and metabolic coaching.

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Now through their three levels that they offer,

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they have programs that focus on weight loss,

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heart health, and glucose stability. I've now

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been through this program twice, and I'll kind

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of illustrate what it will look like. So you

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make an initial consultation with your levels

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coach. You wear a continuous blood sugar monitor

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for one month. You'll complete a lab panel, and

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I did it through Quest Diagnostics. A clinician

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with levels will then analyze your results and

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give you an action plan. That's when you can

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then start hitting your own health goals and

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in real time track your own progress. And then

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depending on the level you subscribe to, there's

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also a second blood work so you can now see how

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you're doing six months later. Now by combining

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AI data, AI powered insights and human coaching

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together, 80 % of Levels members improve their

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biomarkers. Now, as I mentioned, Levels is offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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$100 off your first order if you use the promo

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code SHIELD at levels .com. And if you're interested

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in getting Levels for your department, email

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Josh Clemente, the founder and CEO of Levels,

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at josh at levels .com. And if you want to hear

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the origin story and so much more about this

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incredible company, listen to my interview with

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CEO and founder Josh Clemente on episode 1159

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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to

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the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my

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name is James Geering, and this week it is my

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absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter,

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exercise physiology graduate, and the founder

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of Karner Bunker Gear, Ryan Conley. Now, in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from

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Ryan's journey into the world of powerlifting,

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the science of training the tactical athlete,

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PFAS, why he created a safe bunker gear that

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we can train and work out in, firefighter fitness

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standards, the work week, and so much more. Now,

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before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Ryan

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Conley. Enjoy. Brian, I want to start by saying

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two things. Firstly, thank you to Jim and Nick,

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because we met initially at the Brothers Helping

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Brothers conference in exotic Beaver Creek, Ohio,

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a few weeks ago. And secondly, I want to welcome

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you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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James, thanks for having me, man. I appreciate

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you. And yeah, it was a great. coincidental meeting

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up there i'm very happy that we took the invitation

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to to join that conference and i had a great

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time up there i thought it was a super well -run

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event and very um you know tight -knit community

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so it's very cool to be a part of that absolutely

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well very first question where on planet earth

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be finding you today I'm actually not too far

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from you. I'm over in Tampa, Florida. And I've

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been a Floridian my whole life. So I grew up

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in South Florida area, went to school, Florida

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State, and then Florida Atlantic University for

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my graduate. And I've worked at Cape Coral Fire

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Department, which is Southwest Florida for over

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10 years now. So I've been all over the state.

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Brilliant. Well, let's start at the very beginning

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thing. So tell me exactly where you were born

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and then tell me a little bit about your family

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dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Okay. Davie, Florida. It's by Fort Lauderdale

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area. It's a small suburban area. We actually

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had a lot of horse community. So that was kind

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of cool growing up, seeing people riding horses

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all the time. I grew up just a single child.

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I have a half brother, but he's 18 years older

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than me. So he's old enough to be my dad, but

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we're good friends. Basically, I got into sports

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at a young age, did a lot of competing in sports,

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taekwondo, wrestling, combat sports really stuck

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with me. I like to enjoy that a lot. And then

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also I caught the iron bug. And ever since I

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was young, I was always trying to figure out

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different ways to improve performance. And eventually

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that also turned into how to be healthy. So I

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have a long standing relationship with sports

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and fitness and general health. similar to yourself

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so i appreciate your your podcast and all the

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great information that you've been creating to

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put out for first responders to try and help

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improve their performance and their their health

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and longevity so thank you for for doing that

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well thank you for being part of it this is what's

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crazy it's a library free library of 12 almost

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1200 episodes now which is mind -blowing yeah

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My wife just graduated from Nova Southeastern

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as an optometrist, doctor of optometry. So I

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was back and forth with Davey for almost four

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years straight. Talk to me a little bit more.

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I know you've got Western Ranches down there,

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some other places. I think Florida was a big

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cattle state for a long time. But you see still

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some of the agriculture down there amidst the

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super urban and suburban areas of Miami. What

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was your childhood like and what has changed

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now when you go back? You know what? It's still

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very similar. Like I said, we were very much

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suburban, a lot of middle class families. My

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dad was a foreman for construction. Our neighbors

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were welders and mechanics. So I grew up around

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a lot of hardworking type guys. And my dad was

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also older. So I think he was 45 when I was born.

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So I had a little bit of a different upbringing

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with that kind of generational. you know, hard

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nosed type thing. And Davey was awesome. I couldn't

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have asked for a better place to grow up. I still

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have some lifelong friends that we grew up with.

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One of them is actually my one of our business

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partners. So we grew up together through high

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school and we've known each other for over 20

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years now. So it's cool to be able to to have.

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long lasting friends from that area. And every

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time I go back, we still just pick up with some

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of the kids that we grew up with or knew from

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high school or college, just like it was, you

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know, we haven't missed a beat. So it is really,

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it's cool to have that kind of community still.

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And it's. It's interesting because it's the same

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thing, the fire service, right? Like you meet

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a lot of people that you just pick up and you

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might not talk to for a couple of years because

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you're a different station or a different shift.

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And then as soon as you get back to it, you're

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like, oh yeah, it's just like we never left each

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other. So it was a good place to grow up. I appreciate

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it now. Definitely looking back on it. You mentioned

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being a sportswoman when you were younger. What

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were you playing and doing as far as sports and

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exercise in the school years? So I did all the

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normal stuff, at least over here, soccer, football,

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baseball, flag football. I never played football

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in high school. My dad wouldn't let me, but I

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wrestled. So we were a really good wrestling

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school. We had nine kids go to state my junior

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year and then four or five my senior year. i

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really dived into that same thing started lifting

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in high school really caught the iron bug in

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like college time um and then i competed in powerlifting

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after that for a decade a little bit over 10

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years so i have always done some kind of athletic

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events and i enjoy being competitive there's

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something about that like extra you know drive

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that keeps you on task it keeps you moving forward

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it keeps you um on the correct path, right? Like

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it doesn't give you room for error, room to deviate

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and step away. So it kind of keeps you honest

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with the goal and the tasks. So I've taken those

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lessons from sport and kind of applied it into

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business also with starting the company. And

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it's all just hard work. What is this actually?

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I actually just changed my screensaver yesterday.

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So this was a quote I heard. Life basically is

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pain, uncertainty, and constant work. So that

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is what we know to be a fact. And that's kind

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of how I feel sports are, the fire service, and

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then same thing with running the business. So

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taking those three little simple words and accepting

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them is your fate. Absolutely. You mentioned

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Taekwondo as well. Was it WTS? Were you doing

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the full contact with the Hoku or was it the

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ITF, the touch sparring? I think it was a touch

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sparring. I mean, we had headgear. gloves, shin

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pads, all that. And it was the point system.

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So what was the first one? They were allowed

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to grab the Wii? WTF was the Hoku. So that pad

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that they wear on their torso. Oh, yes. Yeah,

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we did that as well. Yes, we did that as well.

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And then we actually did a year of Krav Maga,

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the Israeli combat training. So we did that,

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which was full contact boxing, head kicks, things

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like that also. So that was also super fun. It's

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funny because when I got into wrestling, I was

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like, totally different it's grappling is completely

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different than striking so it was a completely

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new skill set that i had to learn but i loved

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it so much because it was so difficult so so

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uh different from what i was used to i did taekwondo

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for quite a while as a teen a late teen um and

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i just went on this constant humbling journey

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then because i won national championships in

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taekwondo and then joined boxing and just got

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murdered and i was like well wait a second i

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thought i was supposed to be good at this and

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then and then got a little bit better and then

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god went to muay thai and then they start kicking

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me in the leg and i'm like wait a second what's

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this and then went to jujitsu and then they started

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strangling me i'm like for fuck's sake am i am

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i any good at anything i cannot fight i've been

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training for this my whole life and i can't do

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it still everybody keeps changing the rules exactly

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exactly well what about career aspirations were

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you thinking of the fire service in high school

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or was there something else in your mind No,

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it actually wasn't even on my radar until after

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college graduation for my undergrad. So I think

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I knew that I wanted to do something either in

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public service or exercise science. So at Florida

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State, I went down the public service type avenue

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and took criminology classes and like pre -legal

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classes, courses. So I enjoyed that stuff a lot.

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I think I got a minor in anthropology. I just

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enjoyed learning. And then once I got out, my

00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:06.720
ex -girlfriend at the time, her family lived

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right next door to a captain at Hollywood, Florida.

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And he was a firefighter and we started to talk

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and we hit it off really well. He basically explained

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to me more about the fire service and it sounded

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like a challenge to me. So once I heard that

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it was a challenge and it required physical and

00:12:29.210 --> 00:12:32.929
mental, you know, composure, I was like, all

00:12:32.929 --> 00:12:34.730
right, let me give this a try. So I submitted

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my name to the academy and kind of just jumped

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in with both feet and never looked back. And

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you kind of cut out for a second on my end. What

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year was that that you joined the fire service?

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So I joined the fire service. I got hired in

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20. And I went to the Academy in 2014. So I got

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hired basically a year after I did a year after

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I initiated the Academy. So not too long. And

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I had basically my one of my mentors with was

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a captain at Hollywood Fire Department. So he

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had initiated me into explain to me what the

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fire service was about. It stuck out to me. I

00:13:11.149 --> 00:13:13.409
thought it was a challenge. And I kind of jumped

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into that from there. How competitive was it

00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:19.639
to get hired in South or in your case, West Florida

00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:23.320
back in 2015? Yeah, it was definitely more competitive.

00:13:23.779 --> 00:13:29.539
When we started applying, I remember that some

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of the guys that I had went to high school with

00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.100
that were a few years older than myself, they

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had just gotten jobs and they went to the academy

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and like. 08 09 2010 2011 so like after the economy

00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:42.960
had crashed and nobody was hiring so they were

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kind of a little bit of on a waiting freeze for

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for the lack of term and um i was able to get

00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.419
picked up around a year after but i got picked

00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:55.000
up as an emt on the southwest coast and that's

00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.159
not very common on the east coast so you usually

00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.580
typically have to be a paramedic I had started

00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:02.360
paramedic school, but I had got hired. So I couldn't

00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:03.980
work on the West Coast and go to school in the

00:14:03.980 --> 00:14:06.419
East Coast. So I dropped out from there. But

00:14:06.419 --> 00:14:08.179
yeah, definitely. We had a lot more applicants

00:14:08.179 --> 00:14:11.000
at the time and across the board, as you know.

00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.139
And I know that's something that you've talked

00:14:13.139 --> 00:14:14.980
about and discussed. And I see the same thing

00:14:14.980 --> 00:14:17.179
now where the applicant pool is kind of thinning.

00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:20.379
So I don't know if it's a generational thing

00:14:20.379 --> 00:14:21.960
where there's just not enough workers in the

00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.809
workforce. where the population has kind of changed

00:14:24.809 --> 00:14:27.210
a little bit for working age, or if it's, you

00:14:27.210 --> 00:14:30.210
know, you're also competing with other group,

00:14:30.250 --> 00:14:32.690
other jobs that are, you know, trying to get

00:14:32.690 --> 00:14:34.909
their attention and, and pay a healthy living

00:14:34.909 --> 00:14:37.250
wage, you know? Yeah. Healthy living wage, healthy

00:14:37.250 --> 00:14:41.029
living work week as well. That's the thing. Yeah.

00:14:41.269 --> 00:14:44.429
Talk to me about the front door as far as fitness

00:14:44.429 --> 00:14:50.600
standards and expectations. So. That's a big

00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:53.639
thing for me. I could talk about this for hours.

00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:56.580
So keep me on track if need be. We have hours.

00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:02.919
Carry on. Fitness is something that I think everybody's

00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:04.840
an athlete, right? I think Socrates said it where,

00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.820
you know, every human and every man deserves

00:15:07.820 --> 00:15:11.480
and should be training in some capacity for their

00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.500
own physical fitness and physical health. So

00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:16.539
with that being said, the fire service is probably

00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:18.860
held at even a higher standard. They are held

00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:21.659
at a higher standard. So you always need to be

00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:24.850
in some kind of shape. And I don't want the I

00:15:24.850 --> 00:15:28.509
don't want a random measurable to dictate whether

00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:30.470
or not a firefighter can perform the job or not,

00:15:30.529 --> 00:15:32.309
because there is really more to it than a metric.

00:15:33.169 --> 00:15:36.529
But if you can perform the job and you can do,

00:15:36.529 --> 00:15:39.129
you know, very hard demanding things, which is

00:15:39.129 --> 00:15:42.450
what we do when you're in full gear on air, you

00:15:42.450 --> 00:15:44.009
know, going into a hot burning building, trying

00:15:44.009 --> 00:15:45.750
to do things that are cognitively challenging

00:15:45.750 --> 00:15:47.370
and physically challenging at the same time.

00:15:47.590 --> 00:15:50.149
So there has to be some kind of physical strength

00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:53.139
capacity that. the firefighter has there has

00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:56.019
to be some kind of physical aerobic capacity

00:15:56.019 --> 00:15:58.840
that the firefighter has and they have to be

00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:04.279
able to work under duress so if you can accomplish

00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.419
those things i think you're doing the correct

00:16:07.419 --> 00:16:10.700
uh you you're on the correct path and if we're

00:16:10.700 --> 00:16:13.200
missing those things and we can improve in some

00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:16.279
areas then you can either specifically try and

00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:17.960
isolate some of those variables like improving

00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.100
their strength improving their aerobic performance

00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:23.419
operator training in areas that have you know

00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:26.539
higher heart rate duration so high intensity

00:16:26.539 --> 00:16:29.980
training things of that nature and if you play

00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:31.700
with those variables and turn the knobs the right

00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:34.419
way you can apply that to the individual and

00:16:34.419 --> 00:16:36.759
at the individual level then you can make progress

00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.259
with them on their specific areas that they need

00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:41.759
improvement with, or if they just need to maintain

00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.159
a certain level of strength. If somebody can

00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.379
squat, if you have a 200 -pound athlete and they're

00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:48.820
squatting 400, 500 pounds, they don't really

00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:51.600
necessarily need to get stronger. uh to become

00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.940
to be a good fireman but they need to make sure

00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:55.799
that they have enough aerobic capacity so if

00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.159
we can just maintain that base of strength you're

00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.179
not doing hours of lifting you're just doing

00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:02.720
stuff here and there and then you know making

00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:04.779
sure that your aerobic capacity is met so you

00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:07.180
see a lot of that with bigger athletes where

00:17:07.180 --> 00:17:09.140
they need to make sure their cardiovascular fitness

00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:12.099
is intact and then the lighter weight athletes

00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:14.240
because their absolute strength isn't as high

00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.900
and their relative strength uh compared to the

00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:18.599
the weight and the load they're carrying with

00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.170
ppe and tools and equipment and possibly dragging

00:17:21.170 --> 00:17:25.630
other firefighters or victims, all of the heavy

00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:28.930
burden that we can carry physically, they need

00:17:28.930 --> 00:17:30.450
to sometimes work a little bit more on their

00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:33.750
absolute strength. So I know that's a big window

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:37.490
to kind of peer through, but does that answer

00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:40.849
some of it? Yeah, no, it does. I mean, I'm the

00:17:40.849 --> 00:17:44.130
latter. So I'm definitely a smaller athlete that

00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:45.609
had to work more on the strength and strength

00:17:45.609 --> 00:17:49.069
endurance. When you look at what's expected of

00:17:49.069 --> 00:17:51.130
us and the last place I worked, Reedy Creek,

00:17:51.329 --> 00:17:53.329
you know, not known really for their fire, but

00:17:53.329 --> 00:17:56.230
next to my station was a 30 -story apartment,

00:17:56.430 --> 00:18:00.269
sorry, a hotel, 30 -story hotel. And so a high

00:18:00.269 --> 00:18:03.029
-rise strip, which is nothing above and beyond

00:18:03.029 --> 00:18:05.150
what you would need to carry. So basically, you

00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:07.490
know, a length of hose, two spare bottles and

00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:10.329
a tool. with your bunker gear and pack is 100

00:18:10.329 --> 00:18:14.750
pounds on my 175 pound frame, 168 back then.

00:18:14.990 --> 00:18:18.750
Now you're ascending 30 floors and then you arrive

00:18:18.750 --> 00:18:22.349
where you actually begin to work. So when we

00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:24.589
set these standards, it's not making up some,

00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:27.349
well, what if you had to throw a 300 pounder

00:18:27.349 --> 00:18:29.910
over your shoulder and run across America? No,

00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:32.490
we're not saying that. Like the most basal thing

00:18:32.490 --> 00:18:35.630
that we have to do could be taking a blood pressure

00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:37.829
or it could be the scenario I just described.

00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:41.859
So, you know, there is a need for not just a

00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:44.119
standard, but a high standard. And I think, you

00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.279
know, when you look at the CPAT or the Firesled,

00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.480
the FPAT, I like those because no one then can

00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:52.819
say it's not fair. Black, white, gay, straight,

00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.819
Christian, Muslim, male, female, whatever the

00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:58.359
label that you've given yourself, you either

00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:00.740
can or you can't. These are the tools we need

00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:03.259
in the fire ground. Are you operational or you're

00:19:03.259 --> 00:19:05.940
not operational? Correct. Yeah. And I love the

00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:07.759
fire sled and those guys. They've got a great

00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.700
product, great group of dudes. And I know they're

00:19:10.700 --> 00:19:13.420
around your area. So my hat's off to them. Big

00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:17.160
fan of their stuff. And yeah, I mean, there has

00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.339
to be some objective. And I think that when you

00:19:20.339 --> 00:19:23.119
make it fire ground specific, like the combat

00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.619
challenge, the fire sled, you're then capable

00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:29.720
of saying, hey, these are movements and things

00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:32.930
that we are doing in the fire service. movement

00:19:32.930 --> 00:19:36.289
-specific, sport -specific, job -specific applications

00:19:36.289 --> 00:19:39.109
to assess your fitness. It's not just putting

00:19:39.109 --> 00:19:41.690
somebody on StairMaster and doing a VO2 max,

00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:43.990
which is a helpful test, but it's not the job.

00:19:44.150 --> 00:19:45.650
And the same thing with the push -up standard.

00:19:45.829 --> 00:19:48.230
It's a helpful test, and I can glean a lot of

00:19:48.230 --> 00:19:50.670
information from that to help firefighters. And

00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:52.910
that's kind of where I see the blend of health

00:19:52.910 --> 00:19:55.210
and fitness and firefighter performance. We have

00:19:55.210 --> 00:19:57.509
the side of health and fitness, and then we have

00:19:57.509 --> 00:20:00.099
the side of performance. To allow long -term

00:20:00.099 --> 00:20:02.279
performance, especially in the fire service with

00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.000
a long career of 20 to 30 years, you're going

00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:06.960
to need to have a general foundation of health

00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.200
and keep that health for a long time. You're

00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.279
not a pro athlete. You're not in the military

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.500
just serving three or four years. You have a

00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:16.279
long career ahead of you. So, you know, maintaining

00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.720
a base of health and not beating yourself to

00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.440
death is going to be very helpful for being able

00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.900
to make it through to retirement and be able

00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:25.859
to retire and be healthy. Not even just perform

00:20:25.859 --> 00:20:28.400
the job, but what's on the back end also. so

00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.079
do you have annual fitness standards in your

00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:36.319
department we do so um i'm actually uh the one

00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:40.660
of the wfi committee members so we do bi -annual

00:20:40.660 --> 00:20:42.980
testing so every two years so we'll test half

00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:47.569
the department um once a year so 50 % of the

00:20:47.569 --> 00:20:49.690
department we test one year and then 50 % we

00:20:49.690 --> 00:20:51.329
test the next year. So we're doing it always.

00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:54.269
The crew is getting it done, you know, depending

00:20:54.269 --> 00:20:57.509
on when their year is. But we have a really good

00:20:57.509 --> 00:21:00.210
comprehensive health assessment. We work with

00:21:00.210 --> 00:21:02.549
My Health Onsite. They're actually based out

00:21:02.549 --> 00:21:04.609
of Orlando area, I believe. They work with a

00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:06.589
few different fire departments and they're basically

00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:12.349
contracted medical doctors and nurses and they

00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:14.849
have a clinic on site. So they do that for the

00:21:14.849 --> 00:21:18.960
entire city. We'll have our specific firefighter

00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.200
blood panel where they take a ton of blood work.

00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.779
We'll do a calcium score, which I think is awesome.

00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.079
We're also looking now to try and also include

00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:33.339
a... not a what's on top of the calcium score.

00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:35.799
It's basically a calcium score with contrast

00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:39.500
eye. So you can see if the plaque is soft. So

00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:42.200
if you're meeting metrics where, you know, LDL

00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:44.539
cholesterol and APOB are elevated above certain

00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:48.240
levels, and you're also at age, they can then

00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.539
take a next step and do that test as well. So

00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:53.160
the calcium score is really good. It's a good

00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.339
step up from some of the other things we used

00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:59.180
to do. And, you know, x -rays for the chest.

00:22:00.639 --> 00:22:04.019
what's the carotid artery they'll look at. And

00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:07.000
I think, you know, the typical things, hearing,

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.819
eyesight, lung capacity, things like that. And

00:22:09.819 --> 00:22:11.440
then you'd speak with a nurse practitioner and

00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.200
a physician at the end of it, go through all

00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:16.079
that data. And then once they meet that criteria,

00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.839
they can go to the WFI. We'll conduct VO2 max

00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:24.660
tests on incline treadmill run, pushups, wall

00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:28.619
squats, or we do a broad jump instead of a vertical

00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.920
jump. and shoulder mobility hamstring mobility

00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.539
things of that nature a lot of what the the wfi

00:22:34.539 --> 00:22:36.720
assessment is and we've tweaked it here and there

00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.099
but overall it's a very good test i think it's

00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:41.960
a great foundational tool we'll look at body

00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.920
fat also along with bmi because bmi is not enough

00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.140
data not enough info so looking at body fat and

00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:51.440
where some of these some people are holding their

00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:54.259
their body fat is helpful so one of the numbers

00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:58.339
i've seen um which i think you you'll agree with

00:22:58.990 --> 00:23:04.490
the folks that were below a 40 so with the vo2

00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:07.230
max typically you want you see numbers around

00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:11.529
44 45 milliliters per minute of oxygen as the

00:23:11.529 --> 00:23:14.069
recommendations from the nfpa and different studies

00:23:14.069 --> 00:23:17.349
that you you can see so with the st the test

00:23:17.349 --> 00:23:19.410
that we typically do it's an equation based test

00:23:19.410 --> 00:23:21.650
you want to give yourself about a 10 standard

00:23:21.650 --> 00:23:25.029
error rate either way so i basically look at

00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:29.740
40 to 50 is passing So anybody below 40, I want

00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:33.460
to say it was like 20 % of our population from

00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:36.579
what we tested last year. And within that 20%,

00:23:36.579 --> 00:23:41.680
about 70 % of them were over fat. So for the

00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.140
males, it was a body fat level of 20 % or higher.

00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:47.019
So you definitely see a correlation between higher

00:23:47.019 --> 00:23:49.579
levels of body fat and lower levels of aerobic

00:23:49.579 --> 00:23:53.019
fitness. And that's well cited in the research

00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:55.990
as well. And then secondarily, a big number that

00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:58.690
sticks out to me is our blood pressure. On average,

00:23:58.849 --> 00:24:02.210
I want to say 25 % of our department was normotensive,

00:24:02.349 --> 00:24:08.470
so 120 over 70 or less. And then 25 % was stage

00:24:08.470 --> 00:24:11.609
two hypertension, and 50 % was pre hypertension

00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:15.329
or stage one. So you see that elevation in blood

00:24:15.329 --> 00:24:17.009
pressure, which is not great for chronic health

00:24:17.009 --> 00:24:21.269
across the board. And, you know, that's something

00:24:21.269 --> 00:24:25.089
that I I would like to improve across the fire

00:24:25.089 --> 00:24:27.349
service in general, but then also with my friends

00:24:27.349 --> 00:24:29.190
and my brothers and sisters in the fire department.

00:24:29.390 --> 00:24:31.349
So those are some of the numbers that I've seen

00:24:31.349 --> 00:24:34.190
and that I think are relevant and that actually

00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:36.509
make a difference between performance and health

00:24:36.509 --> 00:24:40.029
and longevity. So those are the things that I

00:24:40.029 --> 00:24:42.930
think I should be looking at specifically. Are

00:24:42.930 --> 00:24:45.809
you held to an annual punitive fitness standard

00:24:45.809 --> 00:24:48.680
or is it just more of the screening? So it's

00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:50.980
not a fitness. It's not a punitive standard.

00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.859
It's the screening. And then on top of that,

00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:55.819
you know, giving them advice and trying to help

00:24:55.819 --> 00:24:58.140
get them on the correct path. So we don't have

00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:01.480
any punitive things set up. We're trying to create

00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:05.000
more of a carrot in the stick where we're using

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.259
the carrot more so. And we're still figuring

00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:09.839
that out. It's a work in progress. We do have.

00:25:10.430 --> 00:25:12.529
full backing from the fire department and the

00:25:12.529 --> 00:25:15.809
union is, has been supportive as well. So I think

00:25:15.809 --> 00:25:18.150
that we were in a good environment, uh, trying

00:25:18.150 --> 00:25:21.609
to work between the two and trying to, to make

00:25:21.609 --> 00:25:24.430
forward progress. Um, and we'll see how that

00:25:24.430 --> 00:25:27.910
goes. So. What about work week? I mean, this

00:25:27.910 --> 00:25:29.490
is something that I speak about occasionally.

00:25:30.630 --> 00:25:34.650
What are you guys working at the moment? So we're

00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:39.400
at 24, 48, um, with a three week Kelly. Um, Obviously,

00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:43.119
big fan of the Cali. And I also know a couple

00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:46.079
of guys that work with us. So we're, what are

00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:47.920
we at? I think we're close to 300 members online.

00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:50.599
We're 13 stations. So a few of the guys that

00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:53.880
I know came from 2472s up north. Not many, but

00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.079
I know a couple that did work those. And they

00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.000
are giant, giant fans of the 2472. So I know

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.460
that once DeSantis signed the bill to try and

00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:07.369
allow or encourage departments to go. uh for

00:26:07.369 --> 00:26:10.529
for the lower 40 -hour work week um that was

00:26:10.529 --> 00:26:12.329
something that our department presented to the

00:26:12.329 --> 00:26:14.470
city for our next rounds of negotiation in a

00:26:14.470 --> 00:26:17.529
few years so it's either going to tentatively

00:26:17.529 --> 00:26:20.769
you know 24 72s or double cali days however that

00:26:20.769 --> 00:26:23.869
would look like but yeah i think that would be

00:26:24.349 --> 00:26:26.750
That would be great. I'm a big fan of, you know,

00:26:26.750 --> 00:26:29.829
getting adequate rest and sleep and, you know,

00:26:29.829 --> 00:26:32.730
allowing people's HRV to recover and get back

00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:35.329
to work and have enough time for their family

00:26:35.329 --> 00:26:38.309
and their life. So I was trying to push, you

00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:40.569
know, 24 hour shift and then get a Kelly. So

00:26:40.569 --> 00:26:42.450
five days off, but I don't think they were going

00:26:42.450 --> 00:26:46.740
to go for that. So. Every single time? Yep, every

00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:49.019
time. I'm like, that was a hard shift. I think

00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:52.279
we need five days off. I mean, this is the funny

00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.420
thing. When you look at what we're trying to

00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:59.740
get, the absolute gold standard is the 24 -72,

00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:02.640
and that's a 42 -hour work week. And then you

00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.019
look at the corporate world now, and they're

00:27:05.019 --> 00:27:07.440
actually leaning into the 32 -hour work week,

00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:10.940
and they're finding it incredibly... efficient,

00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:13.279
productive, I mean, all the things, and they've

00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.799
got a happier, healthier workforce, you know,

00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.779
we're chasing something that that industry used

00:27:18.779 --> 00:27:20.900
to have. And now they're moving even further

00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:23.559
forward. So, you know, we joke about that. But

00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:25.640
I mean, the people that you call 911 on your

00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:28.339
worst day, wouldn't you want them to have at

00:27:28.339 --> 00:27:31.000
least, you know, what the average person has,

00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:34.210
if not even... less time so you know that's that's

00:27:34.210 --> 00:27:38.069
a future conversation but um yeah the 24 72 i

00:27:38.069 --> 00:27:40.690
mean at least at least 72 hours between every

00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:43.329
single shift and i think with the kelly conversation

00:27:43.329 --> 00:27:45.910
it's interesting because plano for example have

00:27:45.910 --> 00:27:48.890
done this now they've put you know whether it's

00:27:48.890 --> 00:27:50.670
you know three week kelly or like you said even

00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:54.029
even more if you need a couple years three years

00:27:54.029 --> 00:27:57.230
to get to the 24 72 then you can use a kelly

00:27:57.230 --> 00:28:00.180
day as a stepping stone but you have to say That

00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:03.819
is step one of the three -step plan to 24 -72.

00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:07.420
What a lot of departments are doing now, they're

00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:08.880
saying, oh, we'll just go to a Kelly for now.

00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:10.759
Well, that doesn't fix anything. Actually, it

00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:12.700
makes it worse because you just punch more holes

00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:15.259
in your schedule and create more overtime, and

00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:16.839
everyone's going to work their own Kelly day,

00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:18.539
so you've just basically paid them time and a

00:28:18.539 --> 00:28:22.130
half to take no rest whatsoever. But if you hire

00:28:22.130 --> 00:28:24.869
enough people as you progress to the 24 -72 to

00:28:24.869 --> 00:28:27.009
cover those Kelly days, then yeah, it's absolutely

00:28:27.009 --> 00:28:29.369
a stepping stone then. So understanding that

00:28:29.369 --> 00:28:33.089
nuance, I think, is important. Yeah. And I, I'm

00:28:33.089 --> 00:28:36.250
a big fan of our front office. I think that we

00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:38.009
have a good, I personally have a great relationship

00:28:38.009 --> 00:28:41.009
with them. I think most guys respect the front

00:28:41.009 --> 00:28:44.150
office as well now. And I know that that is their

00:28:44.150 --> 00:28:46.970
goal is to start trying to overhire. And I know

00:28:46.970 --> 00:28:48.390
that when you have the Kelly day, essentially

00:28:48.390 --> 00:28:50.369
that's about half a shift. So when you eliminate

00:28:50.369 --> 00:28:51.910
the Kelly day, you only need to fill another

00:28:51.910 --> 00:28:54.190
half shift to make a D shift. So I know that

00:28:54.190 --> 00:28:56.460
there's some, you know, chess pieces that we're

00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:59.339
trying to move around and preemptively anticipate.

00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:02.880
So we'll see how all that goes. But on the 2472

00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:06.500
stuff, as far as that also is a, you know, obviously

00:29:06.500 --> 00:29:08.240
the conversation is really about sleep, right?

00:29:08.299 --> 00:29:11.000
So trying to figure out the best ways to facilitate

00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.180
good sleep for guys. And that is something where

00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:17.240
cancer risk prevention comes to mind. I mean,

00:29:17.259 --> 00:29:19.900
I speak on this quite often where when you have,

00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.140
it was one study, I think it was one single study

00:29:23.140 --> 00:29:25.420
I looked at, but or two different studies, but

00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:29.059
one of them was college age males at seven, less

00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:30.859
than seven hours of sleep. So young, healthy

00:29:30.859 --> 00:29:33.539
adults, not under a ton of stress, not firefighters,

00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.079
not having high exposure rates to anything. And

00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:40.500
their natural killer cells dropped by 40 % with

00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:43.579
less than seven hours of sleep. And then when

00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:45.859
they got four hours of sleep, so they were restricted,

00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:47.440
I think they were only allowed to sleep from

00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.640
midnight to 4am or 2am to 6am. they had a 72

00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:54.319
% reduction in natural killer cells. So that's

00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:56.619
extremely important because that is the immune

00:29:56.619 --> 00:30:03.099
system's primary cancer fighting cell, as well

00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:05.640
as just fighting the common cold, things of that

00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.059
nature. So the immune system is essentially compromised

00:30:08.059 --> 00:30:11.240
from this lack of sleep, and you're compounding

00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:13.160
that as a firefighter with high levels of exposure.

00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:16.880
So the high levels of exposure combined with

00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:22.380
lack of sleep is really kind of one of the symptoms

00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:25.700
of increased rates of cancer and then secondarily

00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:28.000
heart disease as well. But that lack of sleep

00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.359
really does a number on us in many different

00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:32.480
ways, along with mental health, cancer, cardiovascular

00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.640
disease, all of the above. So that is a grave

00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.720
concern in my mind. And let's flip it around

00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.740
on its head. What an incredible initiative to

00:30:41.740 --> 00:30:44.079
be able to hit so many of these things that ail

00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:47.819
the fire service with just one change. You want

00:30:47.819 --> 00:30:51.099
to, A, like you said, just the number of exposures,

00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:55.119
carcinogens or the mental health exposures. Well,

00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:56.839
then if you've got a fourth shift, now you're

00:30:56.839 --> 00:30:58.940
sharing that load a little bit more, not to mention

00:30:58.940 --> 00:31:01.380
the elimination of unnecessary overtime where

00:31:01.380 --> 00:31:03.599
you were getting even more exposures and even

00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.299
less sleep. But the biggest bang for your buck,

00:31:06.460 --> 00:31:08.420
like you said, taking the money, the downstream

00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:11.119
money and putting it into, in your case, another

00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.960
50 % of a shift and then boom, now you've got

00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.220
four shifts, working healthy. getting over time

00:31:17.220 --> 00:31:19.160
just when it comes around once in a blue moon

00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.279
um you've limited the exposures and you've given

00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.740
the body the rest and recovery to actually address

00:31:24.740 --> 00:31:27.319
the things that don't turn into cancer then or

00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:30.579
don't turn into addiction and suicide ideation

00:31:30.579 --> 00:31:33.940
i mean it's it's such an in you know a powerful

00:31:33.940 --> 00:31:37.759
initiative to really completely move the needle

00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.859
in the fire service but there's also i can tell

00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:43.640
you this from experience so much resistance to

00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:46.349
it to the point where you know you hear most

00:31:46.349 --> 00:31:48.769
people talking about cancer they talk about our

00:31:48.769 --> 00:31:50.509
gear and we'll get to that and the carcinogens

00:31:50.509 --> 00:31:51.869
in our gear when you talk about mental health

00:31:51.869 --> 00:31:55.230
oh it's what ryan saw is what james saw and you

00:31:55.230 --> 00:31:57.029
know if you look at both of those one of the

00:31:57.029 --> 00:31:59.750
biggest contributors to both is sleep deprivation

00:31:59.750 --> 00:32:05.140
absolutely yeah no i mean there's With all of

00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:08.319
these conversations, there are nuances and important

00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:11.019
caveats and details that really do make a difference.

00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:14.259
And I like to explain all these things, especially

00:32:14.259 --> 00:32:16.559
with the cancer risk reduction, mental health,

00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:19.359
cardiovascular disease, all these things. It's

00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.180
a high definition problem. And trying to treat

00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:24.380
it like a low definition problem and trying to

00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:27.700
create resolution from that and change from thinking

00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:31.329
that it's a simple thing is not helpful. Now,

00:32:31.369 --> 00:32:33.250
what is helpful is understanding that it's complex

00:32:33.250 --> 00:32:35.670
and then trying to look at the individual details.

00:32:35.769 --> 00:32:38.430
I'm like, OK, well, if I break all of these,

00:32:38.450 --> 00:32:41.450
you know, underlying contributing issues up and

00:32:41.450 --> 00:32:43.990
I look at them one by one and we start attacking

00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:45.829
those and implementing strategies to try and

00:32:45.829 --> 00:32:48.150
reduce some of those risks. Now we're going to

00:32:48.150 --> 00:32:50.890
make a difference in, you know, reducing these

00:32:50.890 --> 00:32:53.970
large comprehensive risks that are, you know,

00:32:53.970 --> 00:32:57.759
really. The problem in the fire service and whether

00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.680
or not guys want to admit that is, you know,

00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:03.339
it's one thing, but it's there. The data is there.

00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:06.099
The numbers are there. So I think that it's time

00:33:06.099 --> 00:33:08.960
that we and I do see that guys are trying to

00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:11.680
push and trying to make a difference. There is

00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.700
obviously some some resistance, as you've seen,

00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:17.059
as I've seen. But overall, there is definitely

00:33:17.059 --> 00:33:20.200
more of a positive forward movement to trying

00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:23.539
to improve our health amongst ourselves and each

00:33:23.539 --> 00:33:26.349
other. It's not. You know, the fire service is

00:33:26.349 --> 00:33:28.369
great at trying to help other people, but sometimes

00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:30.190
we kind of forget to help each other and help

00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:34.069
ourselves. So that's something that I can see

00:33:34.069 --> 00:33:36.390
the wheel slowly starting to move. You know,

00:33:36.390 --> 00:33:39.289
the implementation of more gyms across the country

00:33:39.289 --> 00:33:42.069
and stations, the implementation of gross decon,

00:33:42.069 --> 00:33:44.869
the implementation of trying to have, you know,

00:33:44.869 --> 00:33:47.170
dispatch systems that aren't waking everybody

00:33:47.170 --> 00:33:49.150
up in the station. So there's all these little

00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:51.769
variables that we can play with. 24 -72s, like

00:33:51.769 --> 00:33:54.299
all of these things help. And discussing them

00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:56.279
and figuring out the pros and cons and how to

00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.660
use them is really what's important in my mind.

00:33:59.380 --> 00:34:01.900
To me, in this whole conversation, it's like

00:34:01.900 --> 00:34:03.700
saying, well, we're having a problem with blood

00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:06.420
on the carpet. So the person goes, well, why

00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.539
don't we just get a carpet cleaner and we'll

00:34:08.539 --> 00:34:10.280
just sop it up? We did that, but there's more

00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:11.860
blood on the carpet. And then someone else points

00:34:11.860 --> 00:34:13.280
out, well, wait a second, that guy over there

00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.739
is bleeding. Well, no one's having the conversation

00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:17.380
that there's a bloke with a knife in the room

00:34:17.380 --> 00:34:19.440
that's running around stabbing everyone. Maybe

00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:21.500
we should get him first, you know what I mean?

00:34:22.019 --> 00:34:24.260
Because there are these nuances, but to me, that's

00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:26.599
the biggest thing for us. And then, like you

00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:29.260
said, what's beautiful is then you free up time,

00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:31.780
you free up money, you have more motivated men

00:34:31.780 --> 00:34:34.840
and women that then want to go to training. They

00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.760
want to go to the gym. They sleep better. And

00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.070
then it's just this kind of... amplification

00:34:41.070 --> 00:34:43.150
of health then and then you can put in mandatory

00:34:43.150 --> 00:34:45.690
fitness standards that are punitive because people

00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:47.530
want to hold themselves to that standard and

00:34:47.530 --> 00:34:50.349
you have you know access to pts when you do get

00:34:50.349 --> 00:34:53.269
hurt you rehab properly you know so all these

00:34:53.269 --> 00:34:56.150
areas because because we're so far and i'm sure

00:34:56.150 --> 00:34:57.909
this will resonate with you you know particularly

00:34:57.909 --> 00:35:01.429
with your background but when we have wellness

00:35:01.429 --> 00:35:03.530
conversations we're talking about the strength

00:35:03.530 --> 00:35:04.829
and conditioning nutrition we're talking about

00:35:04.829 --> 00:35:07.110
well how can we die less well the other side

00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:08.849
of the spectrum is the high level performance

00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:11.809
How can James make it to the top of those 30

00:35:11.809 --> 00:35:15.070
flights of stairs with his heart rate still at

00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:17.530
a good rate and his breathing is still low and

00:35:17.530 --> 00:35:20.309
he's optimizing his tank and he can still think

00:35:20.309 --> 00:35:23.610
clearly? That's high tier one performance. That's

00:35:23.610 --> 00:35:26.050
where we should be focused. But there's a big

00:35:26.050 --> 00:35:28.889
chasm between where James is 100 pounds that's

00:35:28.889 --> 00:35:30.989
trying to get him to not have a heart attack

00:35:30.989 --> 00:35:33.829
on the fire ground to can he get those kids out

00:35:33.829 --> 00:35:38.389
on the 30th floor? Yeah, no, that is such a great

00:35:38.389 --> 00:35:43.590
point. And you said that very well. I thought

00:35:43.590 --> 00:35:46.449
that was very well said. And that's the fun thing

00:35:46.449 --> 00:35:48.909
to me is like playing with the performance, optimizing

00:35:48.909 --> 00:35:51.090
the guys that want to train. And that was something

00:35:51.090 --> 00:35:54.190
I got to do with our last class of new hires.

00:35:55.150 --> 00:35:57.989
So I got to train them in the morning and we

00:35:57.989 --> 00:36:01.849
basically split up into one. I think we trained.

00:36:02.730 --> 00:36:05.429
four days a week so we had one high intent two

00:36:05.429 --> 00:36:07.590
high intensity days where we were lifting weights

00:36:07.590 --> 00:36:10.969
uh basically just doing some sumo deadlifts kettlebell

00:36:10.969 --> 00:36:14.349
work um you know things of that nature and then

00:36:14.349 --> 00:36:16.170
added on top of that some high intensity work

00:36:16.170 --> 00:36:19.789
so sled pushes uh assault bike intervals things

00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:21.389
that were really pushing their heart rate and

00:36:21.389 --> 00:36:24.820
and pushing the pace and getting them to the

00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:26.300
point where they were uncomfortable their legs

00:36:26.300 --> 00:36:28.219
were smoked their lungs are burning like you

00:36:28.219 --> 00:36:30.300
don't want to take another step or do anything

00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:32.360
and by the end of that they're laying on the

00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:34.219
ground you know trying to catch their breath

00:36:34.219 --> 00:36:37.159
and and look like they're gonna die and that's

00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:39.880
kind of the unfortunately that's kind of the

00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:42.619
way that you need to push it sometimes and for

00:36:43.449 --> 00:36:45.610
the ability to push the heart rate up into your

00:36:45.610 --> 00:36:48.289
near -maximal heart rate zone. So doing things

00:36:48.289 --> 00:36:49.929
that are going to really challenge you and get

00:36:49.929 --> 00:36:52.489
your heart rate to feel like your heart is going

00:36:52.489 --> 00:36:55.530
to change and explode out of your chest, and

00:36:55.530 --> 00:36:58.050
for your lungs to just feel like you cannot catch

00:36:58.050 --> 00:37:00.170
your breath. So that's a very important tool

00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:03.349
to utilize. And then on top of that, the secondary

00:37:03.349 --> 00:37:05.590
day was doing just steady state cardio. It's

00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:08.869
very easy stuff. You can go low intensity to

00:37:08.869 --> 00:37:10.989
moderate intensity, but we're not pushing to

00:37:10.989 --> 00:37:12.570
the point where they can't recover. They're not

00:37:12.570 --> 00:37:16.730
able to push. They're able to maintain a good

00:37:16.730 --> 00:37:19.730
work pace for 20 to 60 minutes. And we built

00:37:19.730 --> 00:37:22.030
that up over the time. So you've got resistance

00:37:22.030 --> 00:37:24.110
training. So they're building strength. They're

00:37:24.110 --> 00:37:26.989
doing. uh explosive work with body weight jumps

00:37:26.989 --> 00:37:29.190
throws things of that nature in their warm -up

00:37:29.190 --> 00:37:31.789
they're doing high intensity interval work where

00:37:31.789 --> 00:37:33.150
they're getting their heart rate up super high

00:37:33.789 --> 00:37:35.570
And then they're doing low intensity work to

00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:38.230
build their aerobic fitness base, you know, allow

00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:41.550
mitochondria to adapt, allow their their tissues

00:37:41.550 --> 00:37:43.309
to be able to perfuse and use these nutrients

00:37:43.309 --> 00:37:47.010
and oxygen. So when you can kind of facilitate

00:37:47.010 --> 00:37:49.570
intelligent training and implement that into

00:37:49.570 --> 00:37:52.650
guys foundation in the fire service, I think

00:37:52.650 --> 00:37:54.269
that goes a really long way into teaching them

00:37:54.269 --> 00:37:56.309
how to train and then they can kind of take that

00:37:56.309 --> 00:37:58.150
on with them throughout the rest of their career.

00:37:58.289 --> 00:38:01.239
And that's what we'll. facilitate long -term

00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:03.179
performance, I think is getting it, getting them

00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:05.440
hooked right off the bat. As soon as they're

00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:07.460
in the, and they, they never fall off. You just

00:38:07.460 --> 00:38:09.519
keep them on it. You keep the culture and the

00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:11.500
fire service and the fire department wanting

00:38:11.500 --> 00:38:14.599
to work out and wanting to stay in shape. And

00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:17.099
obviously having some kind of equipment helps.

00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:20.960
But yeah, that's, that's the long -term strategy

00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:24.039
to me is getting them, getting them on as soon

00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:26.079
as possible, getting them addicted to working

00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.079
out and performance. And then they see the results.

00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:30.420
And we did a before and after where we did a

00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:32.260
combat challenge test before and then we did

00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:35.099
one after. Every one of them was like, I feel

00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:37.420
it was so much easier. I feel so much better.

00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:39.380
And I'm like, all right, then we did what we

00:38:39.380 --> 00:38:41.440
needed to do. And your time's improved. It was

00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:44.400
great. So I was very happy with that. And I hope

00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.500
that, you know, we continue to do that and continue

00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:51.179
to cultivate that in our department. It's interesting.

00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.960
When I got hired at Reedy Creek. You know, I

00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.380
went through the hiring process and there were

00:38:56.380 --> 00:38:59.059
a couple of classes, I think, after me. And it

00:38:59.059 --> 00:39:02.360
was you just got hired. You did the admin paperwork.

00:39:02.619 --> 00:39:04.420
You went around the theme parks. You rode some

00:39:04.420 --> 00:39:06.760
rides, you know, and that was it. I mean, really,

00:39:06.820 --> 00:39:09.260
I'm not exaggerating. You didn't have anything

00:39:09.260 --> 00:39:11.460
that tested you in any way, shape or form. And

00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:14.820
it wasn't a cohesive class. It really wasn't.

00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:17.179
And prior to that, I'd had absolute crucibles,

00:39:17.179 --> 00:39:19.860
Hialeah and Anaheim. And we, you know, we were.

00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:21.960
friends for life and I've still I just went down

00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:23.679
to Hialeah a few weeks ago and hung out with

00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:25.260
my original instructor and one of my classmates

00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:27.739
and it's so nice going to a drill ground realizing

00:39:27.739 --> 00:39:30.880
you're not the student anymore but in Reedy Creek

00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:33.519
that year and I'll give kudos to some of the

00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:35.280
you know the spark plugs in the creek that have

00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.699
been really trying to get a good fitness um uh

00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:42.440
you know it's um oh my goodness like peer fitness

00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.539
trainers in that that department um despite the

00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:48.420
department I'll be honest and that year collectively

00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:52.059
we were able to to get them to let us do PT for

00:39:52.059 --> 00:39:55.480
the new hire class. And there was a few people

00:39:55.480 --> 00:39:56.480
in there that thought they were just going to

00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:59.000
ride rides and scared the shit out of them when

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.079
they realized they're going to have to actually

00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:02.420
do real firefighter stuff. But the rest of the

00:40:02.420 --> 00:40:05.559
class were awesome. And, you know, we spent,

00:40:05.619 --> 00:40:09.139
I think it was four weeks PTing them. And at

00:40:09.139 --> 00:40:11.900
the end of it, that tower I told you. we put

00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:14.099
all you know everyone had gear on and i put a

00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:16.460
bunch of stuff on we climbed the 30 floors and

00:40:16.460 --> 00:40:18.820
we stood on the roof and took a picture and the

00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:20.599
reason i'm saying that it was the same kind of

00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:22.000
stuff that you were talking about sandbags and

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.079
sleds and all functional stuff not trying to

00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:26.659
humiliate someone giving them some days that

00:40:26.659 --> 00:40:28.659
were okay a little taste of the pain cave and

00:40:28.659 --> 00:40:31.320
some days that were deload days but at the end

00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.719
there was a sense of pride like Congratulations,

00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.159
you made it through this and now you are Reedy

00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.639
Creek Firefighters. And I had some of the guys

00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:41.920
say, look, I've worked for one or two departments

00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.179
prior and that was the best orientation PT we've

00:40:45.179 --> 00:40:46.659
ever had. And it's not just me, there were a

00:40:46.659 --> 00:40:49.519
few of us. But that is the point. When you have

00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:52.800
that bar set high at the front door, it brings

00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.880
that class together. Yes, of course, you could

00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.559
see if anyone needs to be cut loose, if they

00:40:57.559 --> 00:40:59.500
just don't want to put the effort in. But more

00:40:59.500 --> 00:41:01.179
importantly, everyone that's there for the right

00:41:01.179 --> 00:41:04.679
reason, there's this feeling of, you know achievement

00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:06.960
at the end of it and this bonding that you get

00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.139
through shared suffering so i think that's another

00:41:09.139 --> 00:41:12.760
value of a strong orientation with the bar held

00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.079
high is that you're going to have that camaraderie

00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:18.199
through the rest of your career yeah yeah no

00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:20.760
i agree and i i love that class i thought they

00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.139
were a bunch of good dudes we were i don't want

00:41:23.139 --> 00:41:24.679
to say i was lucky but they were all younger

00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:28.360
guys you know 25 maybe 26 at their oldest so

00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:30.079
all of them had some kind of sport background

00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:32.639
uh it was fun to train them and i know that they

00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.719
I've seen a shift in our department. Like when

00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:38.000
I got hired, fitness was not you didn't work

00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:40.820
out on duty. There was, you know, makeshift gyms

00:41:40.820 --> 00:41:43.280
here and there. There wasn't, you know, matching

00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:46.300
equipment. It wasn't really a thing, especially

00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:48.780
as a probie or a young guy. Like it was not OK.

00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:53.179
So now that I see like I was just acting yesterday

00:41:53.179 --> 00:41:56.099
as lieutenant, which is basically a captain in

00:41:56.099 --> 00:41:59.719
most departments. So one of my probies is like,

00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:01.699
hey, like, do you mind writing me a workout?

00:42:01.780 --> 00:42:04.440
Because I. trained him through orientation. And

00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:05.820
I was like, yeah, man, absolutely. So he's working

00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:07.059
out at three in the afternoon. I'm like, that

00:42:07.059 --> 00:42:09.699
would have never happened when I was on probation.

00:42:09.860 --> 00:42:12.000
So it is cool to look at that like 10 years later

00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.260
and see the shift in the culture. And I'm happy

00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:18.300
and proud to see that for sure with our department.

00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:21.920
And I know that we definitely are a more health

00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:25.559
and fitness oriented department. So, and the

00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.139
camaraderie that comes from that is awesome.

00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:29.260
You know, guys working out with each other and

00:42:29.849 --> 00:42:35.309
From the trainer perspective, the only caveat

00:42:35.309 --> 00:42:39.050
I have with this is one size fits all doesn't

00:42:39.050 --> 00:42:42.449
always work for guys that are a little bit behind.

00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:45.170
in in certain areas like you said like you're

00:42:45.170 --> 00:42:46.570
not trying to embarrass people you're not trying

00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:48.250
you're just trying to get them up to standard

00:42:48.250 --> 00:42:52.610
right so trying to throw them into uh you know

00:42:52.610 --> 00:42:54.469
a very challenging workout like just say like

00:42:54.469 --> 00:42:57.389
a hard crossfit workout or a murph like tossing

00:42:57.389 --> 00:42:58.909
them into something like that is not productive

00:42:58.909 --> 00:43:01.570
um you have to start them where they're at and

00:43:01.570 --> 00:43:02.989
meet them where they're at and that really is

00:43:02.989 --> 00:43:06.050
just a you know basing training off people's

00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:09.210
individual levels of fitness is that ideal like

00:43:09.210 --> 00:43:11.130
no obviously we want every everybody to be a

00:43:11.130 --> 00:43:12.690
stud we want everybody to be you know coming

00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:15.409
out the gates hot every time but that's really

00:43:15.409 --> 00:43:17.909
not the reality we live in so when you have guys

00:43:17.909 --> 00:43:20.090
that are you know a little bit behind or are

00:43:20.090 --> 00:43:23.429
not as strong or not as is in shape you have

00:43:23.429 --> 00:43:25.630
to give them something to make progress and when

00:43:25.630 --> 00:43:28.829
they make progress then you can push it harder

00:43:28.829 --> 00:43:31.150
and harder as time goes on but they have to start

00:43:31.150 --> 00:43:32.449
somewhere and you have to meet them where they're

00:43:32.449 --> 00:43:35.230
at that's what i love about the strongman influence

00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:37.489
too is that i don't know if you found this but

00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.219
Not so much in the brand new recruit, but the

00:43:40.219 --> 00:43:41.880
guys that have been on a while that you're trying

00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:45.139
to get back into it. Because I do a lot of seminars

00:43:45.139 --> 00:43:48.840
within the department itself. And if I had to

00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.519
get them to do a snatch, they're going to be

00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.820
like, no, I'm not doing that. But if you just

00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:55.940
say, pick up that sandbag and walk over there,

00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:58.000
they're like, well, I could do that. Push that

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.159
sled or drag that sled back. Well, I can do that.

00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:02.460
And you're still challenging them the same kind

00:44:02.460 --> 00:44:04.559
of way, but you're taking out that kind of skill

00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:06.579
element. And you're making it more fire ground

00:44:06.579 --> 00:44:08.460
specific anyway. I mean, you know, you carry

00:44:08.460 --> 00:44:10.699
a sandbag. It's like carrying a dummy or carrying

00:44:10.699 --> 00:44:13.420
foam to the engine. You know, you drag push.

00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:17.139
It's like a hose or a human. But I found that.

00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:18.780
And then once you get the confidence up, then

00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:20.980
you incrementally load without, like we said,

00:44:21.019 --> 00:44:23.139
humiliating them. Because there are people that

00:44:23.139 --> 00:44:24.619
are deconditioned that are extremely embarrassed

00:44:24.619 --> 00:44:27.099
about it. And that's okay. You know, there was

00:44:27.099 --> 00:44:29.780
no standard in this profession. So we've got

00:44:29.780 --> 00:44:32.760
to bring you back. person i have no time for

00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.579
is the one that's not willing to put the work

00:44:34.579 --> 00:44:40.059
in to get back yeah and that's a i i saw that

00:44:40.059 --> 00:44:42.940
i saw something similar to that um the last couple

00:44:42.940 --> 00:44:44.760
years with one of my buddies who's on my crew

00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:47.380
and he wasn't an athlete growing up he's got

00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:49.539
45 or so he's an older dude in the fire service

00:44:49.539 --> 00:44:53.500
for being a firefighter um and he's um you know

00:44:53.500 --> 00:44:56.139
mechanic redneck like he's funny awesome dude

00:44:56.139 --> 00:44:58.400
great great guy and he just started working out

00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:00.719
with um one of the other driver engineers there

00:45:01.499 --> 00:45:04.840
And literally every shift, he would push a sled.

00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:08.860
It was a circuit. Sled push, push -ups, sandbag

00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:10.340
carry. Sometimes they would throw it over the

00:45:10.340 --> 00:45:13.019
shoulder. And I think walking lunges. And he

00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:14.820
would do that for like 30 minutes every single

00:45:14.820 --> 00:45:17.320
shift. And he got in better and better shape.

00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:19.380
And that's just his standard. He does that. He

00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:20.659
doesn't think about it. He just goes out and

00:45:20.659 --> 00:45:23.239
does it. And I'm like, that's awesome. Like,

00:45:23.260 --> 00:45:26.329
I love seeing that. And it's not... you know

00:45:26.329 --> 00:45:29.130
high -end training and and programming and stuff

00:45:29.130 --> 00:45:31.429
that i nerd out and geek out on but he's i'm

00:45:31.429 --> 00:45:33.369
like he's doing everything that he needs to do

00:45:33.369 --> 00:45:35.630
and staying in shape at an older age which is

00:45:35.630 --> 00:45:38.429
i love seeing that and it was cool to watch him

00:45:38.429 --> 00:45:40.449
do that because that wasn't you know part of

00:45:40.449 --> 00:45:43.570
his lifestyle prior and him talking about how

00:45:43.570 --> 00:45:45.849
much better he felt was was cool to watch so

00:45:45.849 --> 00:45:48.909
yeah absolutely and i love that too when i when

00:45:48.909 --> 00:45:52.170
i first was in um basically the last two departments

00:45:52.170 --> 00:45:55.650
really i would be out on my own doing at that

00:45:55.650 --> 00:45:58.030
time CrossFit, you know, and for weeks and weeks

00:45:58.030 --> 00:45:59.610
and weeks, it was just me. And, you know, someone

00:45:59.610 --> 00:46:01.489
would come out and maybe make a joke and then

00:46:01.489 --> 00:46:04.409
go back in and watch TV. But then something shifted.

00:46:04.769 --> 00:46:07.710
And one day someone said, I want to do this with

00:46:07.710 --> 00:46:10.449
you. And then one became two, two became three,

00:46:10.530 --> 00:46:13.210
four. And then all of a sudden I would be on

00:46:13.210 --> 00:46:15.670
a day off and come in, you know, maybe come down

00:46:15.670 --> 00:46:17.110
to the theme park with my son or something. And

00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:19.110
I'd swing by the station and the whole crew is

00:46:19.110 --> 00:46:21.289
out there working out. And you're not even there

00:46:21.289 --> 00:46:23.719
anymore. So this is the other thing too, is that

00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:26.139
if you can take those first steps and again,

00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:28.739
not humiliate someone, make them comfortable

00:46:28.739 --> 00:46:32.039
just being at whatever level they are, you know,

00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:34.599
now that wheel is turning and you can, you can

00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:37.059
step away and now, you know, that crew will continue

00:46:37.059 --> 00:46:39.260
doing it. So that was, that was very powerful

00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:42.059
to see that if you just light a fuse, that's

00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:43.440
all you've got to really do. Then you can step

00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.539
back and, you know, go light a fuse somewhere

00:46:45.539 --> 00:46:49.320
else. Yeah. You were the catalyst to progressive

00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.079
change. for the levels of fitness in your guys

00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:55.099
no i love it the uh and it also helps with mental

00:46:55.099 --> 00:46:56.519
health again like coming back to all that stuff

00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:00.260
dude actually yeah small tangent for exercise

00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:02.320
and fitness that's another staple in my mind

00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:04.320
for you know sleep and exercise and fitness right

00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:05.760
obviously you talk about this stuff all the time

00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.260
as well but cancer risk reduction i think 30

00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:13.840
to 40 percent of cancers are um potentially reduced

00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:16.519
from not being obese and just being in shape

00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:19.960
so Right off the bat, you have a giant tool to

00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:22.679
leverage just by not being overweight and working

00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:26.869
out and exercising. We see that with cancer survivors.

00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:29.750
We see that with guys that are coming back from

00:47:29.750 --> 00:47:33.050
cancer and also during cancer. If you are exercising,

00:47:33.210 --> 00:47:35.190
doing some kind of resistance training, chemo

00:47:35.190 --> 00:47:36.849
works better. You're going to recover better.

00:47:36.949 --> 00:47:39.929
All these things like you have such an amazing

00:47:39.929 --> 00:47:42.489
tool at your disposal and all it takes is a little

00:47:42.489 --> 00:47:45.630
bit of effort and give a shit and sometimes some

00:47:45.630 --> 00:47:48.510
education. So like that is needed as well. And

00:47:48.510 --> 00:47:50.710
then once they get into it, it really just has

00:47:50.710 --> 00:47:53.789
such compounding benefits. But yeah. Exercise

00:47:53.789 --> 00:47:55.750
is obviously great for mental health. It's great

00:47:55.750 --> 00:47:57.769
for cancer risk reduction. It's great for cardiovascular

00:47:57.769 --> 00:48:00.329
disease. And again, all three of these are something

00:48:00.329 --> 00:48:02.889
that are burdens or things that we carry in the

00:48:02.889 --> 00:48:06.239
fire service. Sleeping, making sure that you're

00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:09.019
on top of your sleep and making sure that you're

00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:11.599
taking care of it off duty as much as possible

00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:13.539
is a priority in my mind for the individual.

00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:15.900
And then ensuring that you're working out whether

00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:19.760
it's on shift or off shift is also on the individual.

00:48:19.900 --> 00:48:21.880
And then the department needs to try and facilitate

00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:25.980
the best possible ways to allow guys to sleep.

00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:29.539
as much as possible when they are not called

00:48:29.539 --> 00:48:33.139
for emergency services and facilitate guys with

00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:36.099
equipment that they, that is going to allow them

00:48:36.099 --> 00:48:39.159
to be healthier, stronger, better shape for longer.

00:48:39.340 --> 00:48:42.179
So, you know, a barbell is not expensive. Sandbags

00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:44.780
aren't expensive. They're not that much of an

00:48:44.780 --> 00:48:46.380
investment when you look at the grand scheme

00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:48.820
of things for how long it's going to last. I've

00:48:48.820 --> 00:48:50.980
had a barbell, you know, we've, barbells are

00:48:50.980 --> 00:48:52.679
going to last 20, 30 years. Like they're pieces

00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:56.150
of steel. that are made to get beat up like so

00:48:56.150 --> 00:48:58.250
to me it's not it's a no -brainer in my mind

00:48:58.250 --> 00:49:03.690
um but i think the uh the the overall trend towards

00:49:03.690 --> 00:49:06.730
pushing this tactical fitness all of this this

00:49:06.730 --> 00:49:10.050
type of blend of performance and health is is

00:49:10.050 --> 00:49:12.690
just vital for for forward progress in the fire

00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.730
service and that becoming a standard is something

00:49:15.730 --> 00:49:19.719
that i look forward to for sure 100 I did, uh,

00:49:19.780 --> 00:49:22.539
sports science in England and then finished off

00:49:22.539 --> 00:49:26.199
here in, uh, in Florida, UF, um, exercise science.

00:49:26.420 --> 00:49:29.079
What made you get into the academic side? And

00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:31.820
then how has that, um, become a value for you

00:49:31.820 --> 00:49:35.059
on the fire side? For sure. And I, I definitely

00:49:35.059 --> 00:49:37.119
want to, I would want to ask you what you saw

00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:39.900
the difference between the two from England to

00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:42.019
coming over here academic wise and what you,

00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.440
what you saw and learned. Um, so academic wise,

00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:50.829
I. I'm a nerd. I love learning stuff. I got my

00:49:50.829 --> 00:49:53.110
undergraduate degree in criminology, like I said,

00:49:53.150 --> 00:49:56.869
and I basically self -educated myself, different

00:49:56.869 --> 00:50:00.309
certifications, reading all the time, trying

00:50:00.309 --> 00:50:03.869
to just learn things and apply things to my powerlifting

00:50:03.869 --> 00:50:06.630
performance and then eventually firefighting.

00:50:06.769 --> 00:50:09.210
So I was always doing that. I was coaching and

00:50:09.210 --> 00:50:11.349
training people. So I had a lot of hands -on

00:50:11.349 --> 00:50:15.219
and development training. Physique athletes,

00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:20.400
other powerlifters, my mom, kids, across the

00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:22.400
gamut of things, being able to see how people

00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:25.039
responded to different training stimuli. And

00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:28.519
then my girlfriend at the time was doing her

00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:32.780
graduate degree at USF in Tampa. And I got exposed

00:50:32.780 --> 00:50:35.260
to more of the academic setting. I went and sat

00:50:35.260 --> 00:50:37.260
in on some classes. I was really intrigued. I

00:50:37.260 --> 00:50:39.619
loved learning and hearing what they had to say.

00:50:40.349 --> 00:50:42.610
And I started reading more studies. So instead

00:50:42.610 --> 00:50:44.530
of just, you know, because people cite stuff

00:50:44.530 --> 00:50:46.949
all the time and I'm like, is that real? Is that,

00:50:46.949 --> 00:50:49.269
you know, is that actually what it's saying?

00:50:49.769 --> 00:50:51.829
So I would start reading the studies on my own.

00:50:51.889 --> 00:50:53.730
And at first I was super confused. It is very

00:50:53.730 --> 00:50:57.690
hard to read published literature. And eventually

00:50:57.690 --> 00:50:59.090
I just got a little bit better at it, a little

00:50:59.090 --> 00:51:00.309
bit better at it, a little bit better at it.

00:51:00.369 --> 00:51:03.489
And I started looking for programs that would

00:51:03.489 --> 00:51:06.429
allow me to do that while I was still working.

00:51:07.369 --> 00:51:09.510
At the time this was pre -COVID, there really

00:51:09.510 --> 00:51:11.849
wasn't much available. Like there was some online

00:51:11.849 --> 00:51:16.969
colleges, I think Cal Penn State or something

00:51:16.969 --> 00:51:19.250
like that. It was a weird blend of Pennsylvania

00:51:19.250 --> 00:51:22.210
and California, but it was very expensive. So

00:51:22.210 --> 00:51:24.530
I had kind of kept that on the back burner and

00:51:24.530 --> 00:51:27.750
just, you know, was thinking about it as an alternative

00:51:27.750 --> 00:51:33.510
thing. And COVID happened and FAU created a fully

00:51:33.510 --> 00:51:36.250
online graduate degree in exercise physiology.

00:51:37.210 --> 00:51:39.750
The guy that ran the department was somebody

00:51:39.750 --> 00:51:41.969
that I had known from Florida State. We had competed

00:51:41.969 --> 00:51:44.130
in some powerlifting competitions together. So

00:51:44.130 --> 00:51:47.269
I applied. I got in on a waiver basically saying

00:51:47.269 --> 00:51:50.289
that I had to keep a certain GPA. I think I wound

00:51:50.289 --> 00:51:54.329
up getting all A's or maybe some A minuses. So

00:51:54.329 --> 00:51:57.130
I kept the waiver the entire time and was able

00:51:57.130 --> 00:51:59.630
to graduate. I think two and a half years with

00:51:59.630 --> 00:52:01.889
a graduate degree while working full time. The

00:52:01.889 --> 00:52:03.849
department paid for the degree. I think I only

00:52:03.849 --> 00:52:06.110
came out of pocket like $3 ,000, $4 ,000 maybe

00:52:06.110 --> 00:52:10.110
over the time course of the thing. And I loved

00:52:10.110 --> 00:52:13.829
it. So I then took that, continued to read literature.

00:52:13.929 --> 00:52:16.269
I dived a little bit more into some of the cancer

00:52:16.269 --> 00:52:19.190
side of things. So trying to learn a little bit

00:52:19.190 --> 00:52:20.809
more about cancer, trying to learn a little bit

00:52:20.809 --> 00:52:25.469
more about firefighters and heat, how heat affects

00:52:25.469 --> 00:52:31.920
firefighter performance. trying to see what was

00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:35.079
going on with cancer in the fire service. Like,

00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:37.179
where was this coming from? What was some of

00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:40.639
the studies showing? And what were some of the

00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:43.400
preliminary data on PFAS, things of that nature?

00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:48.400
And it was a really big, it was a really large

00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:51.420
amount of data, except for the PFAS. So PFAS

00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:54.179
is still something that's fairly new, but I really

00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:58.380
enjoyed trying to create a picture. So that I

00:52:58.380 --> 00:53:00.599
could understand that I could also call, you

00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:02.639
know, bullshit on other things that I would heard

00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:06.260
or see that people were either. And this is the

00:53:06.260 --> 00:53:11.300
same thing with science. Science is what you

00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:13.559
learn in high school, right? I mean, you're supposed

00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:16.239
to have an idea, you have a theory, you test

00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:19.099
the theory, you try and, you know, come up with

00:53:19.099 --> 00:53:21.900
an objective, honest outcome based answer for

00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:25.219
what you find during the study. Now, every study

00:53:25.219 --> 00:53:27.739
has its limitations. You've got cohort studies

00:53:27.739 --> 00:53:30.639
that are going to look at large swaths of the

00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:33.579
population. You're not going to control a lot

00:53:33.579 --> 00:53:35.440
of variables with that. And that's part of the

00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:38.280
study. You're allowing people to free live and

00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:39.980
you're looking to see what's actually changing.

00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:43.340
But obviously, you're not going to have the ability

00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:45.820
to manipulate their exercise or their food or

00:53:45.820 --> 00:53:47.849
any of these things. And then you have other

00:53:47.849 --> 00:53:49.909
things that are laboratory studies where we're

00:53:49.909 --> 00:53:52.030
looking at a cell in a Petri dish and how does

00:53:52.030 --> 00:53:54.190
it respond to this inflammatory marker and things

00:53:54.190 --> 00:53:55.949
of that nature? How does this cancer cell respond

00:53:55.949 --> 00:53:58.289
to this? And then you have other studies that

00:53:58.289 --> 00:54:00.949
are looking at tightly controlled experiments

00:54:00.949 --> 00:54:04.550
where you have a person living in a metabolic

00:54:04.550 --> 00:54:07.010
ward and they're getting three meals a day and

00:54:07.010 --> 00:54:09.429
they're counting these scientists and nutritionists

00:54:09.429 --> 00:54:11.469
are counting every single calorie that these

00:54:11.469 --> 00:54:14.969
people are consuming. And you can literally have

00:54:14.969 --> 00:54:19.420
all of these. tightly controlled variables, controlled

00:54:19.420 --> 00:54:22.019
in a living human being. So with all that being

00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:25.179
said, you have pros and cons of all these different

00:54:25.179 --> 00:54:28.199
types of research. And what you're supposed to

00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:31.559
do is look at all of it together, see what the

00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:34.619
evidence is trying to show you, right? Like,

00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:37.219
what is the picture being painted from all this

00:54:37.219 --> 00:54:39.739
different data set, and understand what the limitations

00:54:39.739 --> 00:54:42.199
are, because obviously, every study is not going

00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:45.550
to be it is not a 100 % encompassing answer.

00:54:45.650 --> 00:54:48.110
This is not the solution to the problem. You're

00:54:48.110 --> 00:54:49.869
just trying to see what on average everything

00:54:49.869 --> 00:54:54.250
says. So with that being said, some people misinterpret

00:54:54.250 --> 00:54:57.369
research on accident. It's just, they're not

00:54:57.369 --> 00:55:01.530
understanding what they're seeing. Or unfortunately,

00:55:01.610 --> 00:55:04.469
there's people that completely misinterpret data

00:55:04.469 --> 00:55:07.030
on purpose to try and fit their narrative, which

00:55:07.030 --> 00:55:11.480
we are humans, you know, people tend to do things

00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:13.920
to benefit themselves sometimes that is not honest.

00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:19.000
And that even can occur in science. So it's not

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:22.400
common, but it does occur. I've seen scientists

00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:24.280
and heard of scientists that have completely

00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:28.820
falsified data in order to secure funding. And

00:55:28.820 --> 00:55:30.880
eventually those papers usually get retracted

00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:33.019
and they get in trouble and they lose all respect

00:55:33.019 --> 00:55:36.980
and self -esteem. So across the gamut of all

00:55:36.980 --> 00:55:41.969
this stuff, I jumped into this. I loved trying

00:55:41.969 --> 00:55:45.429
to figure out this picture on firefighter health,

00:55:45.530 --> 00:55:48.670
firefighter performance, and having a really

00:55:48.670 --> 00:55:51.730
good foundation for reading the literature and

00:55:51.730 --> 00:55:54.789
being able to interpret that for the guys in

00:55:54.789 --> 00:55:56.130
the fire service, for the guys and the girls

00:55:56.130 --> 00:55:58.250
in the fire service, so that they don't have

00:55:58.250 --> 00:55:59.730
to do it. Because I know they're not doing it.

00:55:59.789 --> 00:56:02.650
And there is a disconnect between what is being

00:56:02.650 --> 00:56:05.369
studied and what they're finding out there in

00:56:05.369 --> 00:56:07.389
some of these research and what is being communicated.

00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:09.980
to the fire service itself so i want to try and

00:56:09.980 --> 00:56:13.420
be you know a voice in a medium to communicate

00:56:13.420 --> 00:56:16.840
some of this information a perfect example of

00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:19.659
what you're talking about and again i don't mean

00:56:19.659 --> 00:56:21.960
to repeat this to vilify the person who did the

00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:25.260
study but i had joel billings on the show he

00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:27.699
did the study and this is this again taking a

00:56:27.699 --> 00:56:30.219
bigger step back the fact that we're not guiding

00:56:30.219 --> 00:56:33.300
researchers to do research in the right areas

00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:35.320
is a failure of the fire service so let me put

00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:38.150
that back on our shoulders But Joel did a study

00:56:38.150 --> 00:56:42.730
of comparing a 2448 to the 4896. And conclusion,

00:56:43.010 --> 00:56:47.190
small sample size, the 4896 is healthier. Fire

00:56:47.190 --> 00:56:50.150
service runs with it. You actually listen to

00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:53.110
Joel talking about the study. A, it was a small

00:56:53.110 --> 00:56:55.630
sample size, but he studied a department that

00:56:55.630 --> 00:56:59.889
ran one call a shift, less than one call at night.

00:57:00.349 --> 00:57:03.190
Yeah. And you have Seattle and all these departments

00:57:03.190 --> 00:57:05.110
go, well, this is obviously perfect for us because

00:57:05.110 --> 00:57:07.570
they haven't looked. The second thing is, if

00:57:07.570 --> 00:57:09.949
you look at what the actual takeaway was, the

00:57:09.949 --> 00:57:13.409
second half of the 48, because the firefighters

00:57:13.409 --> 00:57:15.530
weren't having to get in a car like I used to

00:57:15.530 --> 00:57:18.050
at five in the morning, drive 70 miles to work

00:57:18.050 --> 00:57:19.989
and then arrive sleep deprived at the beginning

00:57:19.989 --> 00:57:23.510
of your shift. They slept all night, woke up

00:57:23.510 --> 00:57:25.369
in their own bed in the station. They had a better

00:57:25.369 --> 00:57:28.429
quality of sleep for that actual second shift

00:57:28.429 --> 00:57:31.849
day. Where that actually is advantageous is if

00:57:31.849 --> 00:57:34.010
any department in the whole of America that works

00:57:34.010 --> 00:57:37.710
24 hours. has the option to start whenever the

00:57:37.710 --> 00:57:39.250
hell they want because they finish at the same

00:57:39.250 --> 00:57:42.690
time. So you move that to 11 a .m., 12 noon.

00:57:42.829 --> 00:57:45.570
Now you've gleaned that one advantage of what

00:57:45.570 --> 00:57:49.039
that study showed. But apples to apples, I don't

00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:51.460
know of a single department that runs zero calls

00:57:51.460 --> 00:57:53.860
pretty much every night and one call a shift.

00:57:53.980 --> 00:57:56.139
There might be a station outlying somewhere,

00:57:56.260 --> 00:57:57.960
but as a whole, most of the guys are getting

00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:02.039
their dicks kicked in 24 -7. So this is what

00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:04.400
they say. Little knowledge is a very dangerous

00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:06.980
thing. And they took that study. And again, no

00:58:06.980 --> 00:58:09.260
fault of Joel's. He went in just thinking he

00:58:09.260 --> 00:58:13.070
was doing a study of a department. And the ripple

00:58:13.070 --> 00:58:15.730
effect of that literally has people, and I see

00:58:15.730 --> 00:58:18.809
it on the comments now, saying the 48 -96 is

00:58:18.809 --> 00:58:23.309
better than 24 -72. To clarify that, 56 hours

00:58:23.309 --> 00:58:25.989
a week is better than 42 hours a week. So this

00:58:25.989 --> 00:58:28.570
is a perfect example, in my opinion, of how you

00:58:28.570 --> 00:58:30.929
can take science, a study that you don't truly

00:58:30.929 --> 00:58:35.530
understand, run with it, and do insurmountable

00:58:35.530 --> 00:58:41.079
damage in a profession. Yes. That is I unfortunately

00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:43.260
have not heard that yet. And I that hurts my

00:58:43.260 --> 00:58:46.780
soul to hear that. And that is a great example.

00:58:46.940 --> 00:58:49.840
That is a misinterpretation of the data. And

00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.239
when you speak to the guy that did that created

00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:55.820
the study, he is obviously informing guys that

00:58:55.820 --> 00:58:57.599
they're, you know, not reading it correctly.

00:58:57.780 --> 00:58:59.579
But once that's out there, it's out there and

00:58:59.579 --> 00:59:01.059
people have their mind made up. They hear one

00:59:01.059 --> 00:59:04.860
thing at a conference and that that is what it

00:59:04.860 --> 00:59:07.900
is. And I was even speaking at a department a

00:59:07.900 --> 00:59:11.889
few. like a year ago and this was prior to the

00:59:11.889 --> 00:59:14.269
most recent study that came out for sauna usage

00:59:14.269 --> 00:59:18.530
from i think finland or norway and the data at

00:59:18.530 --> 00:59:22.829
the time was basically just saying that actually

00:59:22.829 --> 00:59:25.090
i don't know if this had come out yet that there

00:59:25.090 --> 00:59:28.400
was no harm coming from using saunas in the fire

00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:30.679
service because that was an original thing was

00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:32.820
potentially it could be harming you because you're

00:59:32.820 --> 00:59:35.019
opening up the pores allowing more carcinogens

00:59:35.019 --> 00:59:38.179
come in so anyways this smaller department uh

00:59:38.179 --> 00:59:40.000
the fire chief at the time he's no longer there

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:43.300
he wanted guys to jump off the rig and hop into

00:59:43.300 --> 00:59:47.039
asana immediately no shower no decon none of

00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:51.639
this and that is dumb now they didn't know any

00:59:51.639 --> 00:59:54.199
better and they've consulted or spoke with a

00:59:55.579 --> 00:59:59.400
professor at a seminar or a conference, she informed

00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:01.820
them that that was not intelligent to do. And

01:00:01.820 --> 01:00:03.719
that was what was in his mind was that now forever

01:00:03.719 --> 01:00:06.179
from that point on, he didn't think saunas were

01:00:06.179 --> 01:00:08.500
good for you, for firefighters. So I'm like,

01:00:08.579 --> 01:00:10.880
okay, guys, there's extremes that are happening

01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:15.619
here. So yeah, I really try and do my best to

01:00:15.619 --> 01:00:19.820
speak in a way that makes sense for guys, and

01:00:19.820 --> 01:00:22.590
that it's applicable. because you can really

01:00:22.590 --> 01:00:24.809
just this it's it's just all over social media

01:00:24.809 --> 01:00:26.730
it's not just a fire service there's so much

01:00:26.730 --> 01:00:29.190
out there it drives me insane and when you have

01:00:29.190 --> 01:00:32.289
a good radar because you have a background in

01:00:32.289 --> 01:00:35.070
it such as yourself you know what to look for

01:00:35.070 --> 01:00:37.429
and you you can hear when you hear when you you

01:00:37.429 --> 01:00:39.969
know when you hear it Unfortunately, a lot of

01:00:39.969 --> 01:00:42.230
guys don't have the background of exercise physiology,

01:00:42.489 --> 01:00:44.769
of training, etc. But it's the same thing as

01:00:44.769 --> 01:00:48.750
somebody who works on their own vehicles going

01:00:48.750 --> 01:00:50.909
to a mechanic and the guy's blowing smoke up

01:00:50.909 --> 01:00:53.530
his ass for, oh, it's going to be $800, $1 ,000

01:00:53.530 --> 01:00:55.590
to change your front brakes. That's ridiculous.

01:00:55.889 --> 01:00:57.889
It's a 30 -minute job and the brake pads are

01:00:57.889 --> 01:01:01.409
50 bucks. So when you have an understanding of

01:01:01.409 --> 01:01:03.449
what you're listening to, you have a much better

01:01:03.449 --> 01:01:08.989
ability to stuff, shuff off the bullshit. In

01:01:08.989 --> 01:01:10.650
the fire service, we don't have that background.

01:01:10.889 --> 01:01:13.789
So that's where I think that it's so important

01:01:13.789 --> 01:01:16.650
for guys like you and me to be able to try and

01:01:16.650 --> 01:01:19.449
facilitate these conversations, listen to some

01:01:19.449 --> 01:01:21.230
of the experts in the field, hear what they're

01:01:21.230 --> 01:01:24.070
actually saying, and communicate that to the

01:01:24.070 --> 01:01:26.110
guys online and be like, hey, I know this is

01:01:26.110 --> 01:01:29.050
what you thought it was. This is actually what

01:01:29.050 --> 01:01:30.889
they meant to say. And then they're most likely

01:01:30.889 --> 01:01:32.389
to be like, oh, that makes sense. Yeah, okay.

01:01:32.469 --> 01:01:35.110
Yeah, let's do that instead. But, you know, so.

01:01:35.710 --> 01:01:41.210
It's not easy. And I try my best to explain this

01:01:41.210 --> 01:01:48.070
stuff and make it make sense to guys. What you

01:01:48.070 --> 01:01:52.030
need to do. So yeah, school helps you. It teaches

01:01:52.030 --> 01:01:54.809
you how to think, right? And it gives you a good

01:01:54.809 --> 01:01:56.889
foundation for having the bullshit detector in

01:01:56.889 --> 01:01:58.889
my mind. I think that's really where the important

01:01:58.889 --> 01:02:02.360
stuff is. Yeah, no, I agree. Well, let's kind

01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:05.659
of walk through to Carnegie then. You've been

01:02:05.659 --> 01:02:08.840
in the fire service since 2015. What was that

01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:12.260
journey from carcinogens, from exposures in the

01:02:12.260 --> 01:02:14.880
actual incidents themselves, maybe your kind

01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:17.059
of education on PFAS, and then what made you

01:02:17.059 --> 01:02:22.380
develop an alternative to that? Yeah. So like

01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:24.139
everybody, I mean, you know, you jump in the

01:02:24.139 --> 01:02:27.039
fire service. into a fire academy you're not

01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:30.820
thinking much of what you're told to do it's

01:02:30.820 --> 01:02:33.619
just the way we do things and there's only so

01:02:33.619 --> 01:02:35.699
many you know types of clothing you can wear

01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:37.940
that are going to protect you in a 400 degree

01:02:37.940 --> 01:02:42.579
burn so um when you're you know at that age you

01:02:42.579 --> 01:02:44.139
just get some hand -me -down clothing or some

01:02:44.139 --> 01:02:46.590
rental some rental turnout gear and go about

01:02:46.590 --> 01:02:49.409
your life and don't know anything you know and

01:02:49.409 --> 01:02:52.710
uh eventually we got to the point where we were

01:02:52.710 --> 01:02:55.989
exposed to gross decon uh that was done by the

01:02:55.989 --> 01:03:00.730
um the guys at the state of florida we had a

01:03:00.730 --> 01:03:02.869
really good group of of guys with the cancer

01:03:02.869 --> 01:03:06.389
uh anti -cancer um god what is the they're gonna

01:03:06.389 --> 01:03:10.449
kill me the florida fire florida firefighter

01:03:10.449 --> 01:03:16.099
uh cancer association No, anyways, there's some

01:03:16.099 --> 01:03:17.960
awesome dudes down there. They went and lobbied

01:03:17.960 --> 01:03:20.280
and they're the ones that got the green buckets

01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:24.440
on our apparatus. So I started seeing that and

01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:27.340
I was like, oh, okay. So we want to scrub ourselves

01:03:27.340 --> 01:03:30.320
after we get out of a fire, trying to get off

01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:31.699
some of these particulates. And I'm like, what

01:03:31.699 --> 01:03:34.579
are particulates? What is some of the stuff we're

01:03:34.579 --> 01:03:38.500
exposed to in general? So some of my good friends,

01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:43.440
they were pretty avid. trainer working out in

01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:45.659
gear right they uh would train in gear almost

01:03:45.659 --> 01:03:49.920
every single day on shift um and i was like all

01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:55.380
right it sucks that these guys are exposing themselves

01:03:55.380 --> 01:03:57.679
unnecessarily when they're trying to do the right

01:03:57.679 --> 01:03:59.400
thing and trying to make themselves better firefighters

01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:02.880
and it's awesome that they're my friends and

01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:07.239
they're badasses but it's also not cool if 30

01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:10.400
years down the road they get cancer and die um

01:04:11.070 --> 01:04:14.349
based on, you know, an accumulation of exposures

01:04:14.349 --> 01:04:17.369
throughout a career. So I was like, why don't

01:04:17.369 --> 01:04:19.469
we just look at this like a sports scientist

01:04:19.469 --> 01:04:23.570
and see that we need gear that is heavy, bulky,

01:04:23.670 --> 01:04:27.440
restrictive, and keeps heat trapped. We don't

01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:29.460
need to be wearing our frontline gear that's

01:04:29.460 --> 01:04:31.559
expensive, number one. And second, it's never

01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:33.900
going to be fully clean because no matter how

01:04:33.900 --> 01:04:36.739
you clean the equipment or the PPE, it's always

01:04:36.739 --> 01:04:38.960
going to have some level of contamination once

01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:41.960
it is exposed to an ideal age atmosphere. So

01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:44.380
we can just make something that mimics frontline

01:04:44.380 --> 01:04:48.159
gear. So we kind of had that revelation driving

01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:51.320
back from the gym one day, me and my good friend

01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:55.579
Zach, who's also my partner. i bought a set of

01:04:55.579 --> 01:04:59.940
old morning pride gear i located a designer up

01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:01.900
in north florida she said that she could tear

01:05:01.900 --> 01:05:04.420
it apart and remake something based off that

01:05:04.420 --> 01:05:07.920
design into using the material that that she

01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:12.480
deemed appropriate um that didn't require any

01:05:12.480 --> 01:05:15.820
you know flame retardant ability that didn't

01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:18.400
require the ability to go into an ideal h atmosphere

01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:20.900
or live fire or live burn and it just made the

01:05:20.900 --> 01:05:24.179
user hot sweaty and mimicked frontline bunker

01:05:24.179 --> 01:05:26.780
gear. So at that point in time, we got a demo

01:05:26.780 --> 01:05:29.179
set. I tried it on. I was like, hey, this will

01:05:29.179 --> 01:05:32.360
work. So we kind of hit the ground running, found

01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:34.920
another manufacturer, made a few suits and went

01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:38.800
from there. And then as far as the research goes,

01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:43.079
I was in my master's degree at the time. So I

01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:46.119
was reading studies constantly. And when this

01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:48.559
idea came to me, I was like, okay, I need to

01:05:48.559 --> 01:05:51.059
verify that this makes sense. So let me start

01:05:51.059 --> 01:05:53.199
digging through all the literature I can and

01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:57.380
verifying that this concept, that it holds weight,

01:05:57.500 --> 01:06:00.260
it holds water, that I'm not just thinking it's

01:06:00.260 --> 01:06:02.219
a good idea and there's a giant hole in my theory.

01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:05.579
So I read as much research as I could. I looked

01:06:05.579 --> 01:06:07.860
at exposures for firefighters. Obviously, we

01:06:07.860 --> 01:06:11.820
see the cancer rates are high. And then on top

01:06:11.820 --> 01:06:13.900
of that, okay, why are these cancer rates high?

01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:15.400
What are some of the things we're coming into

01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:19.829
contact with? PAHs were polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

01:06:19.829 --> 01:06:23.050
That is one of the oldest known human carcinogen

01:06:23.050 --> 01:06:25.769
in occupational cancer. So that was actually

01:06:25.769 --> 01:06:28.829
found in English chimney sweeps that were young

01:06:28.829 --> 01:06:31.650
boys back in the late 1800s. So that was the

01:06:31.650 --> 01:06:33.590
first documented occurrence of this happening.

01:06:33.849 --> 01:06:36.110
And they were having higher rates of testicular

01:06:36.110 --> 01:06:39.949
cancers at young ages. So this was kind of the

01:06:39.949 --> 01:06:42.480
first documentation of that. That is a... compound

01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:44.420
or a particulate that we come in contact with

01:06:44.420 --> 01:06:46.579
all the time. It's probably the number one particulate

01:06:46.579 --> 01:06:49.500
that firefighters encounter because it is a incomplete

01:06:49.500 --> 01:06:53.139
combustion of an organic substance. So that happens

01:06:53.139 --> 01:06:56.860
to be in about everything that burns. And that

01:06:56.860 --> 01:06:58.460
is something that, you know, we've known for

01:06:58.460 --> 01:07:01.579
a long time. And that's where respirators kind

01:07:01.579 --> 01:07:03.500
of came into play, where we're using self -contained

01:07:03.500 --> 01:07:06.099
breathing apparatus. The SCBAs have been in the

01:07:06.099 --> 01:07:08.559
fire service for multiple generations now, but

01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:11.380
we still see an increase in cancer rates. Like

01:07:11.380 --> 01:07:14.360
they're not going down as quickly as they should

01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:17.300
if that was the solution and the only problem

01:07:17.300 --> 01:07:19.480
that we were encountering okay so where are the

01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:22.059
rest of these exposures coming from dermal absorption

01:07:22.059 --> 01:07:25.159
seems to be the primary answer that we're missing

01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:27.519
and that's kind of been elucidated in the past

01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:30.440
10 years of the research so you're seeing things

01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:33.650
like phs that even a low dose of that is going

01:07:33.650 --> 01:07:37.869
to have the absorption of 20 to 50 % of a very

01:07:37.869 --> 01:07:40.849
small amount over about six hours. So that's

01:07:40.849 --> 01:07:42.449
where they kind of come up with the shower within

01:07:42.449 --> 01:07:44.170
the hour. When you're doing things like that,

01:07:44.230 --> 01:07:47.630
you're getting the chemicals off your skin quicker

01:07:47.630 --> 01:07:50.690
and sooner than later, hopefully prior to long

01:07:50.690 --> 01:07:52.840
-term absorption. You have heavy metals that

01:07:52.840 --> 01:07:55.380
you're coming into contact with, especially now

01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:57.219
with electrical vehicle fires. I think that that's

01:07:57.219 --> 01:07:59.199
something that's on the horizon that is a potential

01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:02.400
hazard. You have flame retardants. We've seen

01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:04.920
multiple studies that flame retardants are higher

01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:08.340
on firefighters, both before and after fires

01:08:08.340 --> 01:08:11.800
than a typical population. And that's studied

01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:14.260
on American citizens and French and Italian,

01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:17.420
I want to say. So we see higher levels of pHs

01:08:17.420 --> 01:08:20.760
and flame retardants on them. Exposures to heavy

01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:23.449
metals. And then we also have the PFAS, which

01:08:23.449 --> 01:08:26.130
is something that is what I like to call like

01:08:26.130 --> 01:08:29.409
a gateway conversation to most guys. So most

01:08:29.409 --> 01:08:30.909
people weren't really talking about all these

01:08:30.909 --> 01:08:33.289
other chemicals at all. PFAS was something that

01:08:33.289 --> 01:08:35.329
obviously had national publicity and national

01:08:35.329 --> 01:08:38.569
media exposure. And guys were curious to what

01:08:38.569 --> 01:08:41.750
it was. Why was it in firefighter gear? Why was

01:08:41.750 --> 01:08:46.649
it hurting us? And what exactly do we do about

01:08:46.649 --> 01:08:50.810
it? So with all that being said, you've got...

01:08:51.180 --> 01:08:54.180
you know, four or five chemicals that I, and

01:08:54.180 --> 01:08:56.760
microplastics, sorry, I forgot that one, that

01:08:56.760 --> 01:09:00.000
we have a lot of research on for, you know, respiratory

01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:02.359
dermal absorption, all of the above. And then

01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:04.220
when you go into any house fire, you're seeing,

01:09:04.380 --> 01:09:06.220
I think, north of a hundred different potential

01:09:06.220 --> 01:09:09.140
carcinogens. I think that's a quote from the

01:09:09.140 --> 01:09:13.449
NFPA, might be the IFF, but. You have so many

01:09:13.449 --> 01:09:15.329
exposures that sometimes it's not even worth

01:09:15.329 --> 01:09:18.229
counting what exactly they are. We just know

01:09:18.229 --> 01:09:20.529
that going into smoke and particulates is not

01:09:20.529 --> 01:09:23.250
helpful. It's not good for you. So trying to

01:09:23.250 --> 01:09:25.689
reduce that absolute exposure load over time.

01:09:25.989 --> 01:09:29.449
And then we also see in the research that the

01:09:29.449 --> 01:09:32.229
guys that are firefighters that are just going

01:09:32.229 --> 01:09:34.850
to work, they're not even catching a fire. They're

01:09:34.850 --> 01:09:37.199
not working a fire. when they come off shift,

01:09:37.279 --> 01:09:39.560
they still have higher levels of pHs and flame

01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:43.479
retardants on them than when they were prior

01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:46.260
to coming into shift. So overall, you know that

01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:47.979
we're having some level of exposure, just going

01:09:47.979 --> 01:09:51.319
to the fire station, throwing your gear on, touching

01:09:51.319 --> 01:09:54.020
the apparatus, being around this environment

01:09:54.020 --> 01:09:57.680
that has particulates and exposures that have

01:09:57.680 --> 01:10:00.180
been cross -contaminated across the department

01:10:00.180 --> 01:10:03.569
or across the station. So it's a big... Big picture

01:10:03.569 --> 01:10:07.109
type thing, but I think that's a good starting

01:10:07.109 --> 01:10:10.130
point to throw us off the ledge of cancer risk

01:10:10.130 --> 01:10:12.909
reduction in the fire service. It's funny you're

01:10:12.909 --> 01:10:14.489
talking about the chimney sweep because just

01:10:14.489 --> 01:10:17.050
going back to the work week for a second, when

01:10:17.050 --> 01:10:20.810
I did the presentation at the Florida Professional

01:10:20.810 --> 01:10:24.390
Firefighters Association Conference, I used that

01:10:24.390 --> 01:10:26.810
example. The way we've always done it, well,

01:10:26.869 --> 01:10:28.630
we used to have children working in factories

01:10:28.630 --> 01:10:31.069
and six -year -olds going up chimneys. and when

01:10:31.069 --> 01:10:33.590
they started dropping like flies someone finally

01:10:33.590 --> 01:10:36.090
said well wait a second maybe this we shouldn't

01:10:36.090 --> 01:10:38.210
be doing this and i think it's the same with

01:10:38.210 --> 01:10:39.630
what we're talking about with the shifts and

01:10:39.630 --> 01:10:41.489
all the other things is you know with the gear

01:10:41.489 --> 01:10:43.449
i mean everything that we're talking about is

01:10:43.449 --> 01:10:45.630
how many firefighters do have do we have to lose

01:10:45.630 --> 01:10:47.310
before we say all right the way that we're doing

01:10:47.310 --> 01:10:48.949
it isn't working so it's interesting that you

01:10:48.949 --> 01:10:54.869
use that analogy yeah yeah um and the gear kind

01:10:54.869 --> 01:10:57.869
of came to forefront in my mind, because I'm

01:10:57.869 --> 01:11:00.029
like, okay, this is one variable that we have

01:11:00.029 --> 01:11:02.670
that is completely within our control. We do

01:11:02.670 --> 01:11:04.829
not need to be wearing our frontline gear when

01:11:04.829 --> 01:11:08.109
we're just doing drill yard stuff, which is 90

01:11:08.109 --> 01:11:10.050
% of guys training, right? You just go to a two

01:11:10.050 --> 01:11:13.630
minute drill, force a door, do a search, flow

01:11:13.630 --> 01:11:15.649
some water, whatever it is, throwing ladders.

01:11:16.069 --> 01:11:19.329
A lot of the training that we do every day doesn't

01:11:19.329 --> 01:11:22.670
require thermal protection. So why are we exposing

01:11:22.670 --> 01:11:25.670
ourselves unnecessarily? to a dermal exposure

01:11:25.670 --> 01:11:29.310
to a set of gear and fabric that is going to

01:11:29.310 --> 01:11:32.729
be exposed for the rest of its life now does

01:11:32.729 --> 01:11:36.529
that mean that we you know don't need to be doing

01:11:36.529 --> 01:11:39.409
gross decon or you don't need to be washing your

01:11:39.409 --> 01:11:42.369
gear no like all of these things are variables

01:11:42.369 --> 01:11:44.390
that we need to be doing in the fire service

01:11:44.390 --> 01:11:46.829
and that's where kind of what you talked about

01:11:46.829 --> 01:11:50.069
before where i had mentioned there's multiple

01:11:50.069 --> 01:11:51.770
different things that we look at and try and

01:11:51.770 --> 01:11:54.439
you know start crossing each one of those off

01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:56.140
the list right there's some things that are going

01:11:56.140 --> 01:11:59.300
to be bigger bang for your buck so 24 72s right

01:11:59.300 --> 01:12:02.439
we're limiting exposures you're limiting uh you're

01:12:02.439 --> 01:12:05.260
increasing guys amount of sleep and then you

01:12:05.260 --> 01:12:07.819
also have things like going into fires with your

01:12:07.819 --> 01:12:10.779
bunker gear if you're wearing particulate blocking

01:12:10.779 --> 01:12:14.359
bunker gear research has shown that the particulate

01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:16.000
blocking bunker gear is going to block about

01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:20.489
10 ish percent more particulates than traditional

01:12:20.489 --> 01:12:22.649
bunker gear so the particular blocking gear is

01:12:22.649 --> 01:12:25.069
kind of improving efficiency in that interface

01:12:25.069 --> 01:12:29.409
area where the pants are tight around the boots

01:12:29.409 --> 01:12:31.670
there's kind of like an elastic band there so

01:12:31.670 --> 01:12:33.949
you're not having like an open pathway for vapors

01:12:33.949 --> 01:12:37.270
to come up in between the gear and the user and

01:12:37.270 --> 01:12:38.869
then same thing with the waistband around the

01:12:38.869 --> 01:12:40.750
coat so that they're not getting exposure around

01:12:40.750 --> 01:12:42.869
the torso and when they were doing that research

01:12:42.869 --> 01:12:45.850
you can see pictures of the guys and they would

01:12:45.850 --> 01:12:48.800
have large amounts of particulates around their

01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:51.000
neck, which is where that interfaces with the

01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:53.439
hood and the jacket around their bottom of their

01:12:53.439 --> 01:12:55.739
waist, where the coat stops and the pants start,

01:12:55.859 --> 01:12:58.300
and then around the bottom of their ankles and

01:12:58.300 --> 01:13:01.680
calves and areas like that. So you've got some

01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:03.460
of these heavy hitter things that you can do,

01:13:03.539 --> 01:13:06.220
like improving your year, making sure you're

01:13:06.220 --> 01:13:08.220
wearing your respirator at all times. Even if

01:13:08.220 --> 01:13:10.560
you're pumping a truck, if you're first due on

01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:12.100
a fire scene and you're standing in front of

01:13:12.100 --> 01:13:16.300
the house, their study done in Tucson from 2015

01:13:16.300 --> 01:13:20.840
to 2019, they're seeing a 40 % reduction in urinary

01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:24.760
PAHs. So after the body has metabolized the pH

01:13:24.760 --> 01:13:27.239
that it's inhaled, they are seeing a reduction

01:13:27.239 --> 01:13:29.279
of 40 % of those if the engineers were putting

01:13:29.279 --> 01:13:31.460
on their SCBA packs at the scene of the fire.

01:13:32.020 --> 01:13:34.159
So you have all of these different variables

01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:37.199
that we can kind of look at and use. And in my

01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:39.619
mind with the carna gear, that was just another

01:13:39.619 --> 01:13:41.500
variable and another tool. I'm like, I want to

01:13:41.500 --> 01:13:43.239
help the fire service. I want to help reduce

01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:45.579
these numbers of cancer deaths and bring this

01:13:45.579 --> 01:13:49.640
number back into a, just bring it down, right?

01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:52.399
Try and improve our health and longevity in the

01:13:52.399 --> 01:13:54.800
fire service and allow guys to enjoy their retirement.

01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:57.359
Our tool with carna bunker gear is just one tool.

01:13:57.520 --> 01:14:00.420
It is not a panacea. It is not the fix of cancer

01:14:00.420 --> 01:14:04.779
in the fire service. And I think that. allowing

01:14:04.779 --> 01:14:07.960
guys to hear some of the other opportunities

01:14:07.960 --> 01:14:10.739
to try and reduce cancer that we're talking about

01:14:10.739 --> 01:14:13.180
and we're explaining. I think that also gives

01:14:13.180 --> 01:14:14.760
them a little bit more respect where it's, we're

01:14:14.760 --> 01:14:16.340
not just selling a product. Like we are trying

01:14:16.340 --> 01:14:19.399
to sell a better fire service. And that is ultimately

01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:21.939
our goal. We do have a product that meets one

01:14:21.939 --> 01:14:24.539
of the needs, the many needs that we have in

01:14:24.539 --> 01:14:28.079
order to do so. When you talked about saunas,

01:14:28.100 --> 01:14:30.479
it takes me back to interviewing Stefan and David

01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:33.300
from healthy firefighters, the Swedish. swedish

01:14:33.300 --> 01:14:35.180
guys that came up with the scalefe model in the

01:14:35.180 --> 01:14:38.020
first place and there was this big kind of you

01:14:38.020 --> 01:14:40.960
know up up in arms about the the clean cab and

01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:43.579
you know you hear this bullshit phrases like

01:14:43.579 --> 01:14:46.560
clean cab stop grabs and i'm like oh for fuck's

01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:48.880
sake so you leap off a fire engine with your

01:14:48.880 --> 01:14:50.560
cape and you just fly straight into the front

01:14:50.560 --> 01:14:54.640
door but i get it you know like You obviously

01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:58.439
can't make a fire engine completely sterile either.

01:14:58.539 --> 01:15:00.300
So there's that middle ground, but you know,

01:15:00.300 --> 01:15:03.119
sitting, breathing your gear, this off gassing

01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:05.779
makes no sense. And I'm being a Tilleman in California.

01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:08.619
We didn't have the pack in the doghouse. It was

01:15:08.619 --> 01:15:11.439
down in the compartment beneath us. So you realize

01:15:11.439 --> 01:15:13.800
just how quickly you can throw on a pack. So

01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:16.500
even just from a crash point of view, if you

01:15:16.500 --> 01:15:18.399
don't have that pack digging you into the back

01:15:18.399 --> 01:15:20.680
and you know, the ability for it to be a projectile.

01:15:21.310 --> 01:15:23.369
It just makes it safer to step off the rig and

01:15:23.369 --> 01:15:25.069
then get a pack. So there's a lot of kind of

01:15:25.069 --> 01:15:27.670
middle ground that you can glean a lot of these

01:15:27.670 --> 01:15:29.930
things without pretending that it's going to

01:15:29.930 --> 01:15:33.130
be zero exposure now. And so I really like that

01:15:33.130 --> 01:15:34.850
model. I like the second set of gear. I like

01:15:34.850 --> 01:15:37.029
the, you know, completely cleaning the pack.

01:15:37.149 --> 01:15:40.329
And because that kind of hosy, soapy, brushy

01:15:40.329 --> 01:15:42.609
thing that we do, we know damn well that's not

01:15:42.609 --> 01:15:45.470
actually deconing the, you know, the pack. A

01:15:45.470 --> 01:15:48.569
machine has to do that. So I really like that.

01:15:48.609 --> 01:15:51.010
But yeah, so it's more about, look, There's all

01:15:51.010 --> 01:15:53.869
these things set up against us. What are the

01:15:53.869 --> 01:15:57.189
things that we can do to reduce the exposures?

01:15:57.189 --> 01:15:59.329
And then conversely, like we talked about, and

01:15:59.329 --> 01:16:01.890
with the human being, what can we do to boost

01:16:01.890 --> 01:16:04.470
the immunity, to boost the ability to deal with

01:16:04.470 --> 01:16:08.310
these insults? And I had my PFAS blood work done

01:16:08.310 --> 01:16:10.970
a few months ago, and it was off the charts,

01:16:11.109 --> 01:16:16.550
off the charts. So I'm hoping that the probiotic

01:16:16.550 --> 01:16:19.510
that they're working on now. that um that will

01:16:19.510 --> 01:16:21.930
actually work antibiotics that will work because

01:16:21.930 --> 01:16:24.470
i mean so many of us are just dripping in pfas

01:16:24.470 --> 01:16:26.010
and that's just you know like you said one of

01:16:26.010 --> 01:16:29.130
them so it makes perfect sense to me and that's

01:16:29.130 --> 01:16:32.550
why we we talked you know why not like there's

01:16:32.550 --> 01:16:34.090
a whole argument should you or shouldn't you

01:16:34.090 --> 01:16:36.380
work out with your gear on Well, if depending

01:16:36.380 --> 01:16:38.560
on what you're doing, you can do it in gym shorts

01:16:38.560 --> 01:16:40.819
and a t -shirt, you know, but there's times where,

01:16:40.859 --> 01:16:42.640
yeah, you have to be in the pain cave and something

01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:45.380
that simulates your gear. So why not do something

01:16:45.380 --> 01:16:48.560
that doesn't expose you even more so that you

01:16:48.560 --> 01:16:51.640
can limit those to when you absolutely have to

01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:53.619
put your gear on and go to an ideal age environment.

01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:57.260
Yeah. There's so many, there's like three things

01:16:57.260 --> 01:16:58.619
I want to touch on after you said that. That

01:16:58.619 --> 01:17:02.100
was a great segue. uh the probiotics is super

01:17:02.100 --> 01:17:04.840
cool um i thought of that and it's funny because

01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:06.859
my detector went off when i heard that at first

01:17:06.859 --> 01:17:09.479
i was like i don't know if this is legit and

01:17:09.479 --> 01:17:11.439
one of my uh good friends at work he had sent

01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:13.960
me your podcast where you mentioned it and i

01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:16.000
looked into it i'm like wow this is legit and

01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:18.239
i started thinking about it i'm like well i know

01:17:18.239 --> 01:17:21.220
that The fiber in oatmeal and fiber in general

01:17:21.220 --> 01:17:23.800
helps to kind of attract and bind some of these

01:17:23.800 --> 01:17:27.439
particulates and exposures, PFAS included. And

01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:30.520
that's one way of passing some of these particles

01:17:30.520 --> 01:17:33.579
and microplastics as well. So I was like, okay,

01:17:33.659 --> 01:17:35.899
yeah, this is legit. And this is something I

01:17:35.899 --> 01:17:38.619
look forward to seeing in the future, the release

01:17:38.619 --> 01:17:41.180
of that and seeing if it can grab a hold in the

01:17:41.180 --> 01:17:43.939
fire service. That's something that's super cool.

01:17:44.100 --> 01:17:47.659
I kind of geeked out about that. There was something

01:17:47.659 --> 01:17:51.319
else you'd said for, yeah, going into the pain

01:17:51.319 --> 01:17:55.140
cave and stuff with guys trying to, you know,

01:17:55.140 --> 01:17:57.199
figure out what kind of workout they're doing

01:17:57.199 --> 01:18:02.020
that day and all of the above. Training and building

01:18:02.020 --> 01:18:04.739
that base level of fitness is something that

01:18:04.739 --> 01:18:06.560
you don't have to be in gear every single day.

01:18:06.619 --> 01:18:08.399
And that's another thing that we discuss and

01:18:08.399 --> 01:18:10.869
talk about with guys is. okay if i'm wearing

01:18:10.869 --> 01:18:13.630
my bunker gear i am going to and same thing with

01:18:13.630 --> 01:18:15.649
wearing your seba when you put all these things

01:18:15.649 --> 01:18:17.770
on it's basically restricting you're governing

01:18:17.770 --> 01:18:21.069
yourself so if you have a carburetor you're you're

01:18:21.069 --> 01:18:22.770
not allowing the carb to open all the way right

01:18:22.770 --> 01:18:26.350
your your vo2 max is is reduced when you throw

01:18:26.350 --> 01:18:28.010
that seba on when you throw all that gear on

01:18:28.010 --> 01:18:31.430
your capacity to do work is reduced so as soon

01:18:31.430 --> 01:18:33.880
as you start overheating as soon as your heart

01:18:33.880 --> 01:18:36.260
rate gets super high you're not able to perform

01:18:36.260 --> 01:18:38.760
at as high of a level so we have to build the

01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:41.159
foundation of fitness prior to getting in gear

01:18:41.159 --> 01:18:43.760
you have to be able to you know do your long

01:18:43.760 --> 01:18:45.119
duration cardio you have to be able to do the

01:18:45.119 --> 01:18:46.460
high intensity cardio you have to do all these

01:18:46.460 --> 01:18:49.989
things and doing it out of gear gives you volume,

01:18:49.989 --> 01:18:52.630
right? It gives you enough work and volume to

01:18:52.630 --> 01:18:55.289
build this foundation. And then if it's somebody

01:18:55.289 --> 01:18:57.590
that doesn't really have good heat adaptations

01:18:57.590 --> 01:18:59.869
yet, like we're in Florida, it's hot, it's humid.

01:19:00.289 --> 01:19:03.090
It's miserable most of the year, especially if

01:19:03.090 --> 01:19:04.529
you're in gear on a fire scene in the middle

01:19:04.529 --> 01:19:06.869
of summer. Holy shit. That is some of the most

01:19:06.869 --> 01:19:10.350
brutal stuff you can do. So having guys just

01:19:10.350 --> 01:19:14.170
exercising in general, that is a, it's the first

01:19:14.170 --> 01:19:16.699
step of heat exposure. you're having heat shock

01:19:16.699 --> 01:19:18.699
proteins you're elevating core body temperature

01:19:18.699 --> 01:19:21.699
that would be level one of heat exposure for

01:19:21.699 --> 01:19:23.979
guys right so like just exercise do something

01:19:23.979 --> 01:19:26.699
and then okay maybe let's exercise outside do

01:19:26.699 --> 01:19:28.380
it out in the bay go for a run outside in the

01:19:28.380 --> 01:19:30.560
heat and humidity and then throw the gear on

01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:33.039
so you have these levels right it's a it's like

01:19:33.039 --> 01:19:34.779
a performance triangle in my mind you have the

01:19:34.779 --> 01:19:36.800
foundation and then you have another step above

01:19:36.800 --> 01:19:38.359
that and then you have the peak which would be

01:19:38.359 --> 01:19:40.399
throwing your gear on and doing a full in gear

01:19:40.399 --> 01:19:43.840
on air type workout um and that's where obviously

01:19:44.829 --> 01:19:47.430
Our gear comes into play and would allow guys

01:19:47.430 --> 01:19:52.050
to do so with no risk. And they're able to push

01:19:52.050 --> 01:19:54.729
the performance, increase their ability to tolerate

01:19:54.729 --> 01:19:57.430
uncompensable heat stress. And the uncompensable

01:19:57.430 --> 01:19:59.229
heat stress is slightly different than normal

01:19:59.229 --> 01:20:02.069
heat stress, because as we all know, when you're

01:20:02.069 --> 01:20:03.970
wearing bunker gear, there eventually gets a

01:20:03.970 --> 01:20:05.949
point where your body temperature, your core

01:20:05.949 --> 01:20:09.069
body temperature, it's not. controllable anymore

01:20:09.069 --> 01:20:12.010
it's kind of a runaway thermal heat train so

01:20:12.010 --> 01:20:14.229
in the literature that's what they call uncompensable

01:20:14.229 --> 01:20:16.909
heat stress and it's really hard to mimic that

01:20:16.909 --> 01:20:18.590
i mean you could do it obviously because people

01:20:18.590 --> 01:20:21.189
have heat strokes so it's not impossible to do

01:20:21.189 --> 01:20:23.670
out you know training outside and stuff but it

01:20:23.670 --> 01:20:26.449
is much more controllable when you throw the

01:20:26.449 --> 01:20:30.109
gear on and then you're in that exact same sport

01:20:30.109 --> 01:20:33.220
specific job specific um modality where you're

01:20:33.220 --> 01:20:34.720
wearing the gear that's restrictive it's hot

01:20:34.720 --> 01:20:36.479
it's heavy you're moving around you're doing

01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:39.779
all the normal fire ground tasks so to me that's

01:20:39.779 --> 01:20:41.340
really where the gear shines and performance

01:20:41.340 --> 01:20:44.460
aspect is giving guys uncompensable heat stress

01:20:44.460 --> 01:20:47.520
adaptations and doing so in a specific manner

01:20:47.520 --> 01:20:50.180
that's going to really transfer to the fire service

01:20:50.180 --> 01:20:53.159
it's not you know it's not just uh jumping into

01:20:53.159 --> 01:20:57.020
a sauna and riding a stationary bike that was

01:20:57.020 --> 01:20:58.859
one of the things i struggle with and if i think

01:20:58.859 --> 01:21:01.800
back it got worse if i'm not mistaken as i got

01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:06.279
older but i would say i never had a single task

01:21:06.279 --> 01:21:11.479
in fire gear that it was the exertion that made

01:21:11.479 --> 01:21:13.819
me want to tap out it was always the heat and

01:21:13.819 --> 01:21:15.439
and and i don't know if you've seen any literature

01:21:15.439 --> 01:21:18.140
as far as aging but i felt that my thermoregulation

01:21:18.140 --> 01:21:22.380
got worse as i got older as well I'd have to

01:21:22.380 --> 01:21:25.479
look at that. I know that I'm with you. The heat

01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:27.859
is what kills me. It's what whips my ass. I know

01:21:27.859 --> 01:21:31.279
that there's also if you're overweight, body

01:21:31.279 --> 01:21:34.140
fat wise, body fat is not going to it's too much

01:21:34.140 --> 01:21:36.640
insulation. So it's not going to allow guys to

01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:41.840
be as thermally adapted. Guys that have high

01:21:41.840 --> 01:21:44.890
levels of aerobic fitness, they seem to. adapt

01:21:44.890 --> 01:21:47.710
to heat stress more readily and they also maintain

01:21:47.710 --> 01:21:50.430
that heat stress longer. And then also things

01:21:50.430 --> 01:21:53.310
like thyroid. So I'm personally on thyroid medication

01:21:53.310 --> 01:21:56.189
and your thyroid can dictate a lot of that as

01:21:56.189 --> 01:21:58.069
well. So you're not going to be able to tolerate

01:21:58.069 --> 01:22:00.890
as much heat stress if you're hypothyroid and

01:22:00.890 --> 01:22:02.850
things of that nature. So there's definitely

01:22:02.850 --> 01:22:05.630
a lot of variables that can come into that. And

01:22:05.630 --> 01:22:07.989
then as well as when the body temperature gets

01:22:07.989 --> 01:22:09.970
up higher and higher, you're essentially making

01:22:09.970 --> 01:22:11.789
everything more anaerobic. So you're shifting

01:22:11.789 --> 01:22:14.130
stuff from an aerobic environment more into that

01:22:14.130 --> 01:22:17.229
anaerobic environment. And that's unfortunately

01:22:17.229 --> 01:22:20.890
what the heat does. So eventually, it doesn't

01:22:20.890 --> 01:22:22.869
matter. If you're in the gear long enough, your

01:22:22.869 --> 01:22:24.310
body temperature is going to go up, especially

01:22:24.310 --> 01:22:27.109
if you're doing any amount of exercise. The body

01:22:27.109 --> 01:22:30.270
is releasing heat. When the muscle contracts

01:22:30.270 --> 01:22:33.069
and it's doing work, you're releasing that energy

01:22:33.069 --> 01:22:35.399
in the form of heat. so you're building heat

01:22:35.399 --> 01:22:37.720
up from your core body temperature itself you're

01:22:37.720 --> 01:22:39.960
not allowing it to evaporate because of the the

01:22:39.960 --> 01:22:44.260
high um the the lack of thermal heat loss in

01:22:44.260 --> 01:22:46.699
the bunker gear so you have all these compounds

01:22:46.699 --> 01:22:48.920
that are kind of making the the perfect formula

01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:52.119
for heat exhaustion and and things of that nature

01:22:52.119 --> 01:22:53.880
just making it super hard you know if you go

01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:55.859
outside and dig a ditch with a t -shirt and a

01:22:55.859 --> 01:22:57.979
pair of shorts it's not the same thing as digging

01:22:57.979 --> 01:23:01.079
a ditch in full gear it's Not that digging the

01:23:01.079 --> 01:23:03.560
ditch got any harder. It's just that you're reducing

01:23:03.560 --> 01:23:06.680
your ability to perform. I used to do a lot of

01:23:06.680 --> 01:23:11.859
workouts like Murph and Chad 1000 in full gear.

01:23:12.119 --> 01:23:14.479
And then as I progressed a little bit, like Chad

01:23:14.479 --> 01:23:17.539
was usually bunker pants. And I just did Chad

01:23:17.539 --> 01:23:19.600
the other day, a few weeks ago, and I always

01:23:19.600 --> 01:23:22.739
use a 60 pound vest. And it was amazing just

01:23:22.739 --> 01:23:24.180
exactly what you're talking about. Not saying,

01:23:24.239 --> 01:23:26.539
wow, I'm some amazing athlete, but it was just

01:23:26.539 --> 01:23:28.960
an observation of the ability to offload heat.

01:23:29.500 --> 01:23:33.000
I did Murph in just, you know, t -shirt and shorts

01:23:33.000 --> 01:23:35.340
this time. And then the same with Chad. And it

01:23:35.340 --> 01:23:37.640
is, it's literally night and day, but it shows

01:23:37.640 --> 01:23:40.180
the value. And now I'm not working as a firefighter

01:23:40.180 --> 01:23:41.640
anymore. So I don't need to be able to suffer

01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:45.609
in that gear. It shows you the value of training

01:23:45.609 --> 01:23:48.369
and gear because I couldn't agree more. There

01:23:48.369 --> 01:23:50.170
are many, many workouts that you just simply

01:23:50.170 --> 01:23:52.289
don't have to be wearing gear for. And I would

01:23:52.289 --> 01:23:55.470
argue you get better mobility and better form

01:23:55.470 --> 01:23:57.609
when you're not restricted and you got the pack

01:23:57.609 --> 01:23:59.310
all the way in the back. I'm a big fan of weight

01:23:59.310 --> 01:24:01.350
vests if you are going to do encumbered workouts.

01:24:02.350 --> 01:24:05.470
But you have to spend time in the gear as well,

01:24:05.510 --> 01:24:07.710
suffering, getting hot, because it is a mental

01:24:07.710 --> 01:24:10.449
game as well. And this is what kills me about

01:24:10.449 --> 01:24:13.020
the lack of standards. If the last time that

01:24:13.020 --> 01:24:15.779
you were really in the pain cave was in the academy,

01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:20.500
and now here we are 8, 15 years later, and your

01:24:20.500 --> 01:24:23.779
life or someone else's life depends on you finding

01:24:23.779 --> 01:24:26.539
a dark place that you haven't been in 15 years,

01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:29.380
you are not going to get there. But if the last

01:24:29.380 --> 01:24:31.340
time that you did a redline workout, you went

01:24:31.340 --> 01:24:33.880
out in the Florida sun and 98 degrees, and you

01:24:33.880 --> 01:24:35.720
pushed sleds and pulled sandbags and flipped

01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:39.699
tires and hit sled strikes, and it was awful.

01:24:40.189 --> 01:24:42.350
but you got through it. Now, the last time that

01:24:42.350 --> 01:24:45.470
you were in that dark place was Tuesday. Yeah,

01:24:45.470 --> 01:24:48.310
yeah, exactly. And you're familiar with it. You're

01:24:48.310 --> 01:24:51.970
not having that same high anxiety response. um

01:24:51.970 --> 01:24:53.909
that's gonna you know kind of put you in the

01:24:53.909 --> 01:24:56.310
black right when your your your tunnel vision

01:24:56.310 --> 01:24:58.529
comes on you're not thinking properly and that's

01:24:58.529 --> 01:25:00.810
another thing with heat stress is the the mental

01:25:00.810 --> 01:25:02.810
reduction and the cognitive performance reduction

01:25:02.810 --> 01:25:05.869
so even just one percent of dehydration we see

01:25:05.869 --> 01:25:07.670
a reduction in cognitive performance and two

01:25:07.670 --> 01:25:09.390
percent dehydration if you lose two percent of

01:25:09.390 --> 01:25:11.149
your body weight we're starting to see physical

01:25:11.149 --> 01:25:15.390
uh decrements in performance um and that's something

01:25:15.390 --> 01:25:17.729
i mean kind of talking about the jumping gears

01:25:17.729 --> 01:25:20.380
with with sports performance when i power lifted

01:25:20.380 --> 01:25:22.699
for a long time we would do major weight cuts

01:25:22.699 --> 01:25:24.640
i was not good at it when i was wrestling but

01:25:24.640 --> 01:25:26.479
competing in powerlifting we'd have 24 hour weigh

01:25:26.479 --> 01:25:29.319
-ins i would drop 10 of my body weight in fluid

01:25:29.319 --> 01:25:31.180
which is not healthy for you by any stretch of

01:25:31.180 --> 01:25:33.140
the imagination but it allowed me to complete

01:25:33.140 --> 01:25:35.180
a lower weight class be more competitive etc

01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:38.520
And oh, my God, I could not have lifted a wet

01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:41.180
rag if I went to compete at that body weight

01:25:41.180 --> 01:25:44.600
without refilling and rehydrating. And that's

01:25:44.600 --> 01:25:46.239
something that I try and, you know, be on top

01:25:46.239 --> 01:25:48.500
of guys, especially in Florida with the environment

01:25:48.500 --> 01:25:50.659
we have when guys are going out and training

01:25:50.659 --> 01:25:52.220
or they're going out and working out in the bay,

01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:55.510
doing things like that. getting back inside and

01:25:55.510 --> 01:25:57.569
rehydrating as soon as possible making sure they're

01:25:57.569 --> 01:25:59.250
getting electrolytes and a little bit of carbohydrates

01:25:59.250 --> 01:26:02.590
guys please don't fear carbohydrates all of these

01:26:02.590 --> 01:26:05.529
electrolyte packs you need to you want to have

01:26:05.529 --> 01:26:08.689
10 -ish grams of carbs that actually helps facilitate

01:26:09.239 --> 01:26:11.119
the sodium getting back into the cell quicker.

01:26:11.260 --> 01:26:12.800
So I think you're going to have like a 20, 30

01:26:12.800 --> 01:26:16.119
% improvement for sodium absorption and getting

01:26:16.119 --> 01:26:19.300
the cell rehydrated. So that's something to keep

01:26:19.300 --> 01:26:22.500
in mind when guys are doing low carb and no carb

01:26:22.500 --> 01:26:24.600
electrolyte packs and things of that nature.

01:26:25.800 --> 01:26:30.079
You mentioned weight cuts. I never understood

01:26:30.079 --> 01:26:32.600
why you don't just simply compete on the day

01:26:32.600 --> 01:26:35.180
that you weigh in. And just eliminate that. And

01:26:35.180 --> 01:26:36.899
I don't know where that's come from. And I get,

01:26:36.899 --> 01:26:39.020
you know, the whole loophole thing. I mean, that's

01:26:39.020 --> 01:26:41.560
where the CrossFit pull -up came up for the butterfly

01:26:41.560 --> 01:26:44.520
pull -up, for example. But, you know, in MMA

01:26:44.520 --> 01:26:46.659
and everything, you see these renal problems

01:26:46.659 --> 01:26:49.520
and rabdo. And I just don't get it. Right. You're

01:26:49.520 --> 01:26:51.020
going to fight that evening. Right. Weigh in

01:26:51.020 --> 01:26:53.420
at lunchtime. There we go. Yep. I think you'd

01:26:53.420 --> 01:26:56.710
eliminate so many issues. I agree. I really don't

01:26:56.710 --> 01:26:58.689
know where it came from, but it's at that point,

01:26:58.729 --> 01:27:00.050
it's like one of the competitive things where

01:27:00.050 --> 01:27:01.890
you're like, now it's there and you're either

01:27:01.890 --> 01:27:03.829
going to use it or somebody is going to use it

01:27:03.829 --> 01:27:07.750
against you. So doing it smart and making sure

01:27:07.750 --> 01:27:09.550
you're not causing more harm than good. I know

01:27:09.550 --> 01:27:12.890
that there were some wild, wild dudes back in

01:27:12.890 --> 01:27:14.390
the powerlifting was such a wild sport. I loved

01:27:14.390 --> 01:27:17.090
coming into it. It was like the wild west. And

01:27:17.090 --> 01:27:20.130
back when, when I got in, in like 2010, there

01:27:20.130 --> 01:27:23.210
was stories of, I think a Russian guy who would.

01:27:23.630 --> 01:27:25.789
do the dehydration. And then on top of that,

01:27:25.829 --> 01:27:27.970
he would also pull some of his blood to then

01:27:27.970 --> 01:27:29.810
lose weight. And then he would have the blood

01:27:29.810 --> 01:27:31.789
infused back into him after he'd weigh in. I'm

01:27:31.789 --> 01:27:35.689
like, that is absolutely insane, but not healthy.

01:27:35.930 --> 01:27:38.529
Don't take that advice, but just fun stories.

01:27:40.470 --> 01:27:42.930
While I'm thinking of, of, you know, health issues

01:27:42.930 --> 01:27:44.930
when it comes to working on the fire ground,

01:27:45.069 --> 01:27:47.890
one area that you, I mean, you hear it discussed,

01:27:47.930 --> 01:27:49.270
but I don't think you hear it discussed enough

01:27:49.270 --> 01:27:52.270
is energy drinks. What has been your exposure

01:27:52.270 --> 01:27:54.369
to that energy drinks and then people falling

01:27:54.369 --> 01:27:57.670
out, rhabdo, et cetera? Dude, I'm also like a

01:27:57.670 --> 01:27:59.710
sociopath, I think, because I don't drink caffeine.

01:27:59.869 --> 01:28:02.430
I just operate on piss and vinegar, I think,

01:28:02.449 --> 01:28:06.970
and a little bit of anger. So I basically got

01:28:06.970 --> 01:28:08.510
through probation. I was like, I want to see

01:28:08.510 --> 01:28:10.250
if I can do this without drinking coffee because

01:28:10.250 --> 01:28:13.850
I saw just the addiction to coffee as a probie,

01:28:13.909 --> 01:28:15.409
just having to pour coffee for everybody all

01:28:15.409 --> 01:28:17.250
the time, you know, and make sure the pot's full.

01:28:18.550 --> 01:28:21.560
I think that it... might play a variable. It

01:28:21.560 --> 01:28:23.840
does play a variable when guys are overdosing

01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:25.460
it, right? Just like anything, the doses and

01:28:25.460 --> 01:28:28.359
the poison. If guys were sticking to normal amounts

01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:30.220
of caffeine, which I think the recommendation

01:28:30.220 --> 01:28:34.819
is like three to 400 milligrams a day, maybe

01:28:34.819 --> 01:28:37.619
500 milligrams a day, I don't think we would

01:28:37.619 --> 01:28:40.380
see much of an issue. But when guys are abusing

01:28:40.380 --> 01:28:43.640
the caffeine on top of not sleeping well, you

01:28:43.640 --> 01:28:46.750
are going to see negative repercussions from

01:28:46.750 --> 01:28:50.409
guys abusing caffeine using you know three four

01:28:50.409 --> 01:28:53.310
or five energy drinks a day just to sustain themselves

01:28:53.310 --> 01:28:56.289
because they're combating sleep deprivation because

01:28:56.289 --> 01:29:00.090
they're you know not getting quality sleep off

01:29:00.090 --> 01:29:02.970
shift they're using that as a crutch and that's

01:29:02.970 --> 01:29:05.409
always been my perspective on it is i didn't

01:29:05.409 --> 01:29:08.800
want to use coffee as a crutch and I also think

01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:10.359
it might have to do with some of the blood pressure

01:29:10.359 --> 01:29:12.659
values and things of that nature where guys are

01:29:12.659 --> 01:29:14.939
having higher heart rates, higher blood pressures

01:29:14.939 --> 01:29:17.279
because they're constantly stimmed out of their

01:29:17.279 --> 01:29:19.619
mind. So if guys would bring the range back down,

01:29:19.699 --> 01:29:22.140
come back into a normal range of caffeine intake,

01:29:22.460 --> 01:29:25.239
I think 300, 400 milligrams is fine. Don't quote

01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:27.460
me on that. I think that's pretty close. But

01:29:27.460 --> 01:29:30.300
Megan Lutz, she's an RD that works at Fairfax.

01:29:30.619 --> 01:29:33.220
She's awesome. I've heard her lecture quite often,

01:29:33.260 --> 01:29:35.920
and she does a very good job of going into some

01:29:35.920 --> 01:29:39.239
of those specific dosing crimes. Yeah. I mean,

01:29:39.260 --> 01:29:41.180
again, this is yet another conversation where

01:29:41.180 --> 01:29:44.300
if we simply weren't chronically sleep deprived,

01:29:44.380 --> 01:29:46.579
we wouldn't be leaning into coffee and energy

01:29:46.579 --> 01:29:49.760
drinks as much. So yeah, just another area where,

01:29:49.859 --> 01:29:51.680
yeah, if you can get the rest and recovery, people

01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:53.659
are more likely just to be like, Oh no, I'm good.

01:29:54.060 --> 01:29:56.840
Herbal tea or a glass of water or whatever. But

01:29:56.840 --> 01:29:58.939
I was that guy too. I drank a lot of coffee on

01:29:58.939 --> 01:30:05.060
shift, so I can totally relate. Yeah. guys and

01:30:05.060 --> 01:30:06.739
guys and their coffee that's something you don't

01:30:06.739 --> 01:30:10.640
mess with for sure well so we talked about kind

01:30:10.640 --> 01:30:14.319
of the exercise side what can you do as far as

01:30:14.319 --> 01:30:16.420
the training side the actual operational training

01:30:16.420 --> 01:30:18.680
and then what are the the the restrictions the

01:30:18.680 --> 01:30:20.439
limits what you wouldn't be able to do in this

01:30:20.439 --> 01:30:25.060
gear oh for carna um so it's made and created

01:30:25.060 --> 01:30:28.159
to serve as a non -idlh atmosphere training so

01:30:28.159 --> 01:30:30.760
it is not rated for live fire it's not rated

01:30:30.760 --> 01:30:34.220
for uh into an atmosphere that can potentially

01:30:34.220 --> 01:30:39.060
burn. So part of the idea with that is using

01:30:39.060 --> 01:30:43.979
the gear in drill yard type scenarios. So academies,

01:30:43.979 --> 01:30:46.720
going out throwing ladders, pulling hoses, all

01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:49.340
of the normal daily training that you're doing,

01:30:49.460 --> 01:30:53.500
which does not require going into a high thermal

01:30:53.500 --> 01:30:57.520
temperature atmosphere. And that's kind of where

01:30:57.520 --> 01:31:01.300
we... thought it would shine and will shine is

01:31:01.300 --> 01:31:04.180
in a couple different ways, right? You're, you're

01:31:04.180 --> 01:31:06.460
allowing guys to still get the training in, which

01:31:06.460 --> 01:31:09.619
is allowing them to be better firefighters. You're

01:31:09.619 --> 01:31:13.560
reducing their exposure rates by not having gear,

01:31:13.699 --> 01:31:15.840
not wearing gear that's exposed at some level

01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:18.720
or another, some more than others. And then this

01:31:18.720 --> 01:31:22.640
was actually side topic. Some of the research,

01:31:22.680 --> 01:31:24.520
it was a study that came out earlier this year.

01:31:24.659 --> 01:31:27.380
They had seen, they looked at three different

01:31:27.380 --> 01:31:34.600
kinds of uh bunker gear one was 2011 2014 and

01:31:34.600 --> 01:31:37.079
2019 i want to say all of them were treated with

01:31:37.079 --> 01:31:39.560
pfos from the factory one of them was never worn

01:31:39.560 --> 01:31:42.079
one of them was in service for about eight years

01:31:42.079 --> 01:31:44.479
the one that was in service for eight years actually

01:31:44.479 --> 01:31:47.619
had higher levels of pfos and they were volatile

01:31:47.619 --> 01:31:52.779
pfos that were from the the authors noted that

01:31:52.779 --> 01:31:55.100
it was most likely from the environmental exposures

01:31:55.100 --> 01:31:58.789
so you're seeing gear that Not only is it treated

01:31:58.789 --> 01:32:00.630
with PFAS, and obviously we're moving away from

01:32:00.630 --> 01:32:04.810
that in frontline gear or some capacity, and

01:32:04.810 --> 01:32:07.090
you're seeing that it's still going to be on

01:32:07.090 --> 01:32:09.310
the gear once you go into the fire. So I want

01:32:09.310 --> 01:32:10.949
guys to understand that as well, that it's not

01:32:10.949 --> 01:32:14.750
just contaminated from the factories because

01:32:14.750 --> 01:32:17.659
of... PFAS's ability to repel oil and being very

01:32:17.659 --> 01:32:19.899
good at that and also being very breathable.

01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:22.079
So you're going to lose breathability when you

01:32:22.079 --> 01:32:25.939
have non -PFAS gear. But you're going to get

01:32:25.939 --> 01:32:28.439
those exposures when you start going into fires

01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:30.640
as well, as far as house fires, structure fires,

01:32:30.840 --> 01:32:34.020
things of that nature. So we're trying to reduce

01:32:34.020 --> 01:32:35.859
some of those unnecessary absorptions thermally.

01:32:36.500 --> 01:32:39.539
And then third, you're going to be seeing...

01:32:39.960 --> 01:32:42.560
We've already seen some of this non -PFOS gear.

01:32:42.699 --> 01:32:45.560
I've talked to independent service providers

01:32:45.560 --> 01:32:48.359
that do repairs on bunker gear, that do turnout

01:32:48.359 --> 01:32:50.779
rental companies, things of that nature. They're

01:32:50.779 --> 01:32:52.760
already seeing some of this non -PFOS gear not

01:32:52.760 --> 01:32:55.859
perform as long. Their durability is compromised,

01:32:56.220 --> 01:32:58.800
especially if the gear is hung and is exposed

01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:02.619
to UV light. PFOS was a major protector for the

01:33:02.619 --> 01:33:05.060
bunker gear compared to UV radiation. Kevlar

01:33:05.060 --> 01:33:09.359
is very, very susceptible to UV damage. That

01:33:09.359 --> 01:33:11.220
is something that we think would fill a hole

01:33:11.220 --> 01:33:14.619
as well is using the bunker gear to try and elongate

01:33:14.619 --> 01:33:17.119
the life in the performance life of the frontline

01:33:17.119 --> 01:33:19.539
gear. Frontline gear is very expensive. It's

01:33:19.539 --> 01:33:22.739
expensive because it's a complicated product

01:33:22.739 --> 01:33:25.859
and textile that's made that protects us in crazy

01:33:25.859 --> 01:33:28.500
environments. So you're not going to be able

01:33:28.500 --> 01:33:32.020
to just reduce the cost on that, especially transferring

01:33:32.020 --> 01:33:35.319
a non PFAS gear seems to be more expensive. So

01:33:35.319 --> 01:33:38.329
if we can figure out a way to. make the life

01:33:38.329 --> 01:33:40.430
of that gear extend a little bit more. Potentially

01:33:40.430 --> 01:33:42.069
using the Karna gear is going to help pay for

01:33:42.069 --> 01:33:44.949
itself while also reducing guys' exposure rates.

01:33:45.069 --> 01:33:49.289
So that's not my priority is extending the front

01:33:49.289 --> 01:33:51.350
line life of gear. It is obviously something

01:33:51.350 --> 01:33:53.729
that is a great dollar sign. We like to talk

01:33:53.729 --> 01:33:55.829
to administration and chiefs and budgets about

01:33:55.829 --> 01:33:57.909
that because it is something that could potentially

01:33:57.909 --> 01:34:00.170
help pay for itself. Obviously, my first priority

01:34:00.170 --> 01:34:03.850
is protecting the guys, but it is a great tool

01:34:03.850 --> 01:34:07.010
and it also can help. extend the performance

01:34:07.010 --> 01:34:09.109
of the gear once it's in a fire because the less

01:34:09.109 --> 01:34:10.750
they're wearing their gear their frontline gear

01:34:10.750 --> 01:34:12.529
the less they're washing it the less they're

01:34:12.529 --> 01:34:15.210
beating on it the better that that set of frontline

01:34:15.210 --> 01:34:17.270
gear is going to perform in a fire because it's

01:34:17.270 --> 01:34:21.550
closer to factory specs so we want to basically

01:34:21.550 --> 01:34:25.170
allow guys to to have alternatives training gear

01:34:25.170 --> 01:34:29.699
to use in that nature um we aren't allowing it

01:34:29.699 --> 01:34:31.939
to be used in ideal h atmospheres and we make

01:34:31.939 --> 01:34:34.140
it blue primarily just so the guys are kind of

01:34:34.140 --> 01:34:36.220
color coordinated and they know that if they

01:34:36.220 --> 01:34:39.260
see that that odd color that it's not rated for

01:34:39.260 --> 01:34:43.119
for frontline gear um and then ideally it's also

01:34:43.119 --> 01:34:45.159
not made for vehicle extrication stuff because

01:34:45.159 --> 01:34:48.979
there is no um oil repellency on it there's no

01:34:48.979 --> 01:34:52.319
protective layer for if fluids were to penetrate

01:34:52.319 --> 01:34:55.640
whether that be you know battery acids or some

01:34:55.640 --> 01:34:58.260
kind of hydraulic fluid of that nature so just

01:34:58.649 --> 01:35:00.670
Making sure the guys are aware that safety still

01:35:00.670 --> 01:35:04.550
comes first with this. And it's a tool that has

01:35:04.550 --> 01:35:06.630
limitations, just like frontline bunker gear.

01:35:06.829 --> 01:35:09.470
But I think that it has a spot and a role in

01:35:09.470 --> 01:35:12.109
the fire service. I mean, it makes so much sense

01:35:12.109 --> 01:35:13.949
to me from an exposure point of view. But if

01:35:13.949 --> 01:35:17.210
I'm thinking in my mind of a scenario, say you

01:35:17.210 --> 01:35:19.149
were lucky enough to have the fire sled stuff

01:35:19.149 --> 01:35:22.109
at your station too. You're out in the back apron.

01:35:22.289 --> 01:35:24.409
You're moving that sled around. You're wearing

01:35:24.409 --> 01:35:26.609
your blue gear. You've got a weight vest on.

01:35:27.229 --> 01:35:30.109
And a call comes in where you can just doff everything

01:35:30.109 --> 01:35:32.890
and then run over to your engine. And now everything's

01:35:32.890 --> 01:35:34.989
exactly where you left it. The hose is on the

01:35:34.989 --> 01:35:38.550
bed. Your gear is ready to be deployed if needed.

01:35:38.590 --> 01:35:40.050
Or if you're running an EMS, you're not having

01:35:40.050 --> 01:35:42.949
to put everything back. So, you know, it's a

01:35:42.949 --> 01:35:45.569
that exposure and that separation, but even from

01:35:45.569 --> 01:35:47.930
a, you know, an ability to respond quickly. I

01:35:47.930 --> 01:35:49.970
mean, I've had it where, you know, we're wearing

01:35:49.970 --> 01:35:52.149
all our gear and we've got ladders out and, you

01:35:52.149 --> 01:35:53.590
know, you're scrambling trying to get everything

01:35:53.590 --> 01:35:56.149
back before you can even leave the base. So there

01:35:56.149 --> 01:36:00.720
is that as well. Yes. That's one of the funny

01:36:00.720 --> 01:36:03.680
highlights that some of my friends that have

01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:05.779
the gear also tell me all the time is they're

01:36:05.779 --> 01:36:07.239
like, dude, I would buy this just so I don't

01:36:07.239 --> 01:36:09.279
have to put my sweaty ass gear on to run a call.

01:36:09.420 --> 01:36:13.659
Exactly. Like if we're training. So I think that's

01:36:13.659 --> 01:36:16.720
one of the funnier feedbacks I've gotten is that

01:36:16.720 --> 01:36:18.159
one right there. Like it's worth it just for

01:36:18.159 --> 01:36:23.529
that. So who is using it at the moment? We've

01:36:23.529 --> 01:36:25.310
sold, it's actually really cool. We sold to a

01:36:25.310 --> 01:36:26.909
lot of individual firefighters, which I didn't

01:36:26.909 --> 01:36:30.510
expect. I wasn't, you know, cause it's not cheap.

01:36:30.590 --> 01:36:33.869
The original set or an individual set at under

01:36:33.869 --> 01:36:38.199
50 units is $1 ,500, which. You know, everybody

01:36:38.199 --> 01:36:40.140
spends money on different things. And we see

01:36:40.140 --> 01:36:42.300
some guys with, you know, very expensive vehicles

01:36:42.300 --> 01:36:44.319
or, you know, full sleeves and tattoos that are

01:36:44.319 --> 01:36:47.479
very expensive. So you can have money that you

01:36:47.479 --> 01:36:49.539
would, you know, spend somewhere else that you

01:36:49.539 --> 01:36:52.000
could definitely spend on something that helps

01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:55.180
your job and health. not telling people how to

01:36:55.180 --> 01:36:57.680
you know budget for themselves but at that point

01:36:57.680 --> 01:36:59.619
like i get it it's not a cheap expense it's not

01:36:59.619 --> 01:37:03.100
a 50 you know thing that you're purchasing but

01:37:03.100 --> 01:37:05.380
it is something that can ideally last a long

01:37:05.380 --> 01:37:08.020
time and guys can take it with them for an extended

01:37:08.020 --> 01:37:10.720
period of time and train in it and be very useful

01:37:10.720 --> 01:37:14.520
for them so um you know we're we're hopefully

01:37:14.520 --> 01:37:17.699
we've been selling to a lot of individuals um

01:37:17.699 --> 01:37:20.060
we've sold to some some fire departments across

01:37:20.060 --> 01:37:23.560
the country i think we just finished manufacturing

01:37:23.560 --> 01:37:28.100
130 the other week and then we've just got those

01:37:28.100 --> 01:37:30.140
distributed to three or four or five different

01:37:30.140 --> 01:37:33.239
departments and we're gonna do another 50 60

01:37:33.239 --> 01:37:35.619
here uh shortly as soon as we can turn around

01:37:35.619 --> 01:37:38.619
and get some more materials so we're we're getting

01:37:38.619 --> 01:37:43.920
out there and uh we we did one small uh school

01:37:43.920 --> 01:37:47.100
academy and then we've had an academy in st augustine

01:37:47.100 --> 01:37:50.720
run the demo gear a gear for a demo for a full

01:37:50.720 --> 01:37:55.920
fire academy class it is definitely harder for

01:37:55.920 --> 01:37:57.979
the the fire academy i mean fire academies are

01:37:57.979 --> 01:37:59.779
hard on everything right because they're in the

01:37:59.779 --> 01:38:02.079
gear constantly uh they're beating it up they're

01:38:02.079 --> 01:38:04.220
doing all kinds of stuff that normal fire department

01:38:04.220 --> 01:38:06.859
training isn't going to do so i am looking at

01:38:06.859 --> 01:38:09.319
different options to try and improve things so

01:38:09.319 --> 01:38:11.569
we've we've done things like apply some durable

01:38:11.569 --> 01:38:15.489
water repellents that are non -PFOS that can

01:38:15.489 --> 01:38:19.289
hopefully help the gear stay not as wet because

01:38:19.289 --> 01:38:21.489
it is cotton. It's a duck cotton on the exterior,

01:38:21.649 --> 01:38:24.810
so it will retain moisture longer. So having

01:38:24.810 --> 01:38:28.010
to use fans or drying racks or having things

01:38:28.010 --> 01:38:30.890
of that nature usually help it dry quicker. So

01:38:30.890 --> 01:38:34.270
the gear won't dry as fast as some of our frontline

01:38:34.270 --> 01:38:36.210
gear. So that is something that folks have to

01:38:36.210 --> 01:38:39.350
get used to. So when you're in the academy, your

01:38:39.350 --> 01:38:41.260
gear is soaked all day. the time anyways but

01:38:41.260 --> 01:38:44.000
that was some some feedback that we had um and

01:38:44.000 --> 01:38:46.699
then trying to just you know make small adjustments

01:38:46.699 --> 01:38:49.159
here and there and tweaks so improvements in

01:38:49.159 --> 01:38:51.779
knee pads maybe putting some kevlar on the pockets

01:38:51.779 --> 01:38:54.399
and it's all really a cost of benefit ratio because

01:38:54.399 --> 01:38:56.840
frontline gear is very expensive for a reason

01:38:56.840 --> 01:38:59.220
right like it performs very highly it's almost

01:38:59.220 --> 01:39:02.079
bulletproof for a certain amount of years um

01:39:02.079 --> 01:39:05.779
and you get a really great performing product

01:39:05.779 --> 01:39:08.399
but we can't start making something that's so

01:39:09.079 --> 01:39:12.479
amazing that it's frontline bunker gear and you're

01:39:12.479 --> 01:39:15.979
trying to fit into a market where it makes sense

01:39:15.979 --> 01:39:19.300
cost and affordability wise for departments to

01:39:19.300 --> 01:39:21.560
be able to purchase still so if i start making

01:39:21.560 --> 01:39:26.060
something that is you know 100 made of kevlar

01:39:26.060 --> 01:39:29.060
we're just not going to be able to sustain that

01:39:29.060 --> 01:39:32.079
lower price model for guys and departments to

01:39:32.079 --> 01:39:36.300
be able to afford um and at this point our Starting

01:39:36.300 --> 01:39:39.020
bulk price is 50 units at $1 ,000, which I think

01:39:39.020 --> 01:39:41.140
is extremely reasonable, especially in apartments

01:39:41.140 --> 01:39:43.119
when they see that in their budgets. They're

01:39:43.119 --> 01:39:46.100
usually very excited at that benchmark compared

01:39:46.100 --> 01:39:48.560
to what they would be paying to purchase 50 sets

01:39:48.560 --> 01:39:50.859
of normal gear. So if that can allow them to

01:39:50.859 --> 01:39:54.659
offset the cost of rebuying frontline gear by

01:39:54.659 --> 01:39:58.180
a few years, then I think it's worthwhile. I

01:39:58.180 --> 01:40:00.779
agree 100%. Well, I want to throw some closing

01:40:00.779 --> 01:40:03.250
questions at you before I let you go. The first

01:40:03.250 --> 01:40:06.529
one I love to ask, is there a book or other books

01:40:06.529 --> 01:40:08.750
that you love to recommend? It can be related

01:40:08.750 --> 01:40:10.850
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

01:40:12.550 --> 01:40:15.789
Yeah, so this is going to hit real home for you.

01:40:16.229 --> 01:40:19.069
Jocko Willink's book, obviously. Extreme Ownership

01:40:19.069 --> 01:40:22.029
is definitely one of my favorite books. I recommend

01:40:22.029 --> 01:40:24.609
everybody read that. I think it's such a groundbreaking

01:40:24.609 --> 01:40:30.649
book that he's done such a great job. And he

01:40:30.649 --> 01:40:33.479
just sees things very... very well. He writes

01:40:33.479 --> 01:40:35.380
very well. All of their stories are applicable.

01:40:36.020 --> 01:40:39.159
Awesome book. And then one of the classics that

01:40:39.159 --> 01:40:41.920
I know Jocko probably gleaned information from

01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:44.500
as well was How to Win Friends and Influence

01:40:44.500 --> 01:40:48.140
People. That's an excellent, longstanding book.

01:40:48.779 --> 01:40:50.840
And then anything really written by Jordan Peterson,

01:40:50.960 --> 01:40:54.539
I love him as well. So any of those are, I think,

01:40:54.560 --> 01:40:57.220
very worthwhile books that can educate guys in

01:40:57.220 --> 01:40:59.579
a variety of different ways. really how to be

01:40:59.579 --> 01:41:01.180
a good person a good leader which i think is

01:41:01.180 --> 01:41:03.479
super valuable for the fire service Absolutely.

01:41:03.500 --> 01:41:05.859
Yeah, I just spent yesterday with some of the

01:41:05.859 --> 01:41:07.460
Echelon front team. I didn't see Jocko, but I

01:41:07.460 --> 01:41:10.180
saw Jason Gardner and a few of the other guys.

01:41:10.260 --> 01:41:13.159
And yeah, they had a thousand people in the conference.

01:41:13.359 --> 01:41:17.880
Yes. I guess I didn't realize that was this weekend.

01:41:18.319 --> 01:41:20.000
I would have probably tried to get over there,

01:41:20.060 --> 01:41:22.300
but that is, they put on a great event. I've

01:41:22.300 --> 01:41:24.659
been to a few musters. I actually did a little

01:41:24.659 --> 01:41:26.720
bit of side gigs for them back in the day when

01:41:26.720 --> 01:41:31.140
we would do the, basically. training for the

01:41:31.140 --> 01:41:33.300
companies they would hire them out as contractors

01:41:33.300 --> 01:41:35.939
they would come in and do the lecture series

01:41:35.939 --> 01:41:38.920
and then i would come with some other guys oftentimes

01:41:38.920 --> 01:41:41.640
like retired seals or ex -military dudes and

01:41:41.640 --> 01:41:44.420
we would play laser tags laser tag with the companies.

01:41:44.939 --> 01:41:46.460
And that would be something where there's five

01:41:46.460 --> 01:41:49.000
or six of us against, you know, 40 of them. And

01:41:49.000 --> 01:41:51.779
by the first time we just destroy them. And then

01:41:51.779 --> 01:41:53.600
they start implementing some of the teamwork

01:41:53.600 --> 01:41:55.340
stuff. And by the end of the day, the end of

01:41:55.340 --> 01:41:58.180
the week, they're starting to work together and

01:41:58.180 --> 01:42:02.140
beat us out there on the battleground. But that

01:42:02.140 --> 01:42:03.600
was a lot of fun. I did that a few years ago.

01:42:04.020 --> 01:42:06.600
Yeah, no, it was amazing. When I watched it the

01:42:06.600 --> 01:42:08.760
first time, which is 2021, I was just joking

01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:11.520
with Jason. They come out to this rock music

01:42:11.520 --> 01:42:13.779
and I just kept seeing Bill and Ted's Excellent

01:42:13.779 --> 01:42:17.600
Adventure. You know, hello, San Dimas. I saw

01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:19.560
it again. I was chuckling to myself. But yeah,

01:42:19.600 --> 01:42:22.020
Rob Jones is appointed now, who's a guy I've

01:42:22.020 --> 01:42:24.439
had on the show, double amputee marine, marine

01:42:24.439 --> 01:42:28.020
engineer. Amazing, amazing talk. So all the people

01:42:28.020 --> 01:42:29.659
that they have, you know, every single one has

01:42:29.659 --> 01:42:31.680
got a different lens. So it's definitely worth

01:42:31.680 --> 01:42:34.840
it. Yeah, yeah, they're an awesome group. So

01:42:34.840 --> 01:42:37.100
yeah, again, anything that those dudes put out

01:42:37.100 --> 01:42:39.199
at Echelon Front or Jocko, yeah, definitely check

01:42:39.199 --> 01:42:41.319
out. And I know that's not news to most people,

01:42:41.420 --> 01:42:45.840
but full support. Absolutely. What about documentaries,

01:42:46.100 --> 01:42:50.239
films, television? You know, just because obviously

01:42:50.239 --> 01:42:52.880
with some of the conversations we've been having

01:42:52.880 --> 01:42:54.819
and the PFAS exposures, things of that nature,

01:42:54.960 --> 01:42:58.140
the Dark Waters book, or sorry, Dark Waters movie,

01:42:58.260 --> 01:43:01.359
I know that you've spoken to the man himself.

01:43:02.590 --> 01:43:05.409
And that is such a good movie. And it explains

01:43:05.409 --> 01:43:08.409
some of the background and the back end of the

01:43:08.409 --> 01:43:11.789
creation of PFAS and DuPont and all the kind

01:43:11.789 --> 01:43:14.489
of disgusting business practices and ethical

01:43:14.489 --> 01:43:16.489
things that occurred at that time throughout

01:43:16.489 --> 01:43:20.270
the creation of Teflon and all the above. So

01:43:20.270 --> 01:43:22.729
that's a really good movie to watch that's on

01:43:22.729 --> 01:43:26.069
topic, on brand. Other documentaries and movies

01:43:26.069 --> 01:43:28.050
and stuff. I don't know. I love shows. I love

01:43:28.050 --> 01:43:30.939
documentaries. I love movies. God, I wish I had

01:43:30.939 --> 01:43:33.500
anything else off the top of my head. We started

01:43:33.500 --> 01:43:35.760
watching The Beast and Me. That's on Netflix

01:43:35.760 --> 01:43:38.479
right now. That's a cool one. Claire Danes is

01:43:38.479 --> 01:43:40.520
a really good actress, so I'm interested in that.

01:43:40.720 --> 01:43:43.020
That's definitely got some psychological aspects

01:43:43.020 --> 01:43:46.659
to it that are interesting. So that's been a

01:43:46.659 --> 01:43:50.920
good new watch for me. Brilliant. Well, the next

01:43:50.920 --> 01:43:52.920
question, is there a person that you recommend

01:43:52.920 --> 01:43:55.739
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to

01:43:55.739 --> 01:43:58.079
the first responders, military, and associated

01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:03.130
professions of the world? I'm sure I could come

01:44:03.130 --> 01:44:05.909
up with a few. I don't know if you have interviewed

01:44:05.909 --> 01:44:09.270
him, but I am a big fan of Dr. Orman from NC

01:44:09.270 --> 01:44:12.189
State. I've read a ton of his research. He's

01:44:12.189 --> 01:44:15.130
got some really cool stuff that he's done. And

01:44:15.130 --> 01:44:18.250
he is a fabric textile expert. And he's done

01:44:18.250 --> 01:44:21.069
some preliminary research on PFAS through dermal

01:44:21.069 --> 01:44:24.920
absorption. And then... Dr. Heather Stapleton

01:44:24.920 --> 01:44:27.180
is awesome out of Duke University. She's done

01:44:27.180 --> 01:44:29.279
a bunch of studies as well on dermal absorption

01:44:29.279 --> 01:44:32.819
and flame retardants. And what is her name? She

01:44:32.819 --> 01:44:37.119
is a professor from Appalachian State. And she's

01:44:37.119 --> 01:44:38.880
done a lot of dermal absorption studies as well.

01:44:39.300 --> 01:44:43.380
And she's done a unique, basically skin dialysis

01:44:43.380 --> 01:44:49.279
almost, so that you can see the absorption of

01:44:49.279 --> 01:44:53.670
chemical exposures. Almost in real time. So they've

01:44:53.670 --> 01:44:55.329
been doing that on different fire ground scenes

01:44:55.329 --> 01:44:59.430
and they tested it in other subjects prior to

01:44:59.430 --> 01:45:01.409
that, prior to going out in the field and having

01:45:01.409 --> 01:45:05.609
firefighters do it. So they would go into buildings,

01:45:05.750 --> 01:45:09.090
do a live burn, and they would come out and they

01:45:09.090 --> 01:45:12.149
would get the samples and see how much absorption

01:45:12.149 --> 01:45:14.869
of chemicals were caught. She was actually seeing

01:45:14.869 --> 01:45:17.670
very high levels of absorption, much higher than

01:45:17.670 --> 01:45:19.890
what she expected. So that was a surprise to

01:45:19.890 --> 01:45:23.189
her. So yeah, any three of those I think would

01:45:23.189 --> 01:45:27.810
be excellent speakers for you to interview. I

01:45:27.810 --> 01:45:30.329
think that's what really blows me away when you

01:45:30.329 --> 01:45:32.829
listen to the scientists because we have this

01:45:32.829 --> 01:45:34.710
presumption that, well, if you're wearing your

01:45:34.710 --> 01:45:37.510
gear, all the bad stuff can't get to me. But

01:45:37.510 --> 01:45:39.510
they do these tests and you realize how much

01:45:39.510 --> 01:45:41.789
made it, not even as you said about where the

01:45:41.789 --> 01:45:43.770
seal points are, the neck and the ankles and

01:45:43.770 --> 01:45:46.789
the wrists, but even through the chest and the

01:45:46.789 --> 01:45:48.489
groin and everywhere else that it went right

01:45:48.489 --> 01:45:50.630
through the fabric and still absorbed to us.

01:45:52.709 --> 01:45:55.789
Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I think guys

01:45:55.789 --> 01:46:01.210
don't realize is that there's particles that

01:46:01.210 --> 01:46:04.409
are penetrating through the fibers of the bunker

01:46:04.409 --> 01:46:06.470
gear and through their bodies and they're in

01:46:06.470 --> 01:46:08.210
their bloodstream prior to exiting the structure

01:46:08.210 --> 01:46:11.260
fire. Not all of them. But there are some that

01:46:11.260 --> 01:46:13.039
are very lightweight particles that are doing

01:46:13.039 --> 01:46:17.399
that. So for guys to understand that, that's

01:46:17.399 --> 01:46:19.399
also where some of the deeper washing things

01:46:19.399 --> 01:46:20.979
come in, where you're cleaning the deep fibers

01:46:20.979 --> 01:46:23.680
of the gear. And even one of the cooler small

01:46:23.680 --> 01:46:27.199
studies I saw was walking out of a fire and prior

01:46:27.199 --> 01:46:29.340
to going to gross decon, just opening up your

01:46:29.340 --> 01:46:31.579
jacket, opening up your pants, allowing those

01:46:31.579 --> 01:46:33.659
vapors to off gas for a few minutes. And then

01:46:33.659 --> 01:46:35.880
while you're going over to gross decon, then

01:46:35.880 --> 01:46:39.250
you zip back up and get scrubbed down. There's

01:46:39.250 --> 01:46:41.430
these cool little things that I think are neat

01:46:41.430 --> 01:46:44.770
and they can, these scientists and professors

01:46:44.770 --> 01:46:47.949
that are doing the studies can, you know, give

01:46:47.949 --> 01:46:52.050
us very informative feedback for how to actually

01:46:52.050 --> 01:46:54.489
apply some of this stuff in the real world and

01:46:54.489 --> 01:46:59.189
not, you know, butcher their studies on 2448s

01:46:59.189 --> 01:47:05.569
and 4896s. Last question before we make sure

01:47:05.569 --> 01:47:08.399
everyone knows where to find you and Karna. What

01:47:08.399 --> 01:47:12.279
do you do to decompress? Ooh, I don't know if

01:47:12.279 --> 01:47:15.699
I do decompress enough. Mental health, baby.

01:47:15.859 --> 01:47:19.260
No, I love lifting weights. I love going to the

01:47:19.260 --> 01:47:21.500
gym and training. That is such an outlet for

01:47:21.500 --> 01:47:25.359
me. So that's probably my primary thing. And

01:47:25.359 --> 01:47:28.020
even doing cardio at the station, I know that

01:47:28.020 --> 01:47:31.920
when I get done training and lifting, you have

01:47:31.920 --> 01:47:33.939
the endorphins, you have all the different chemical

01:47:33.939 --> 01:47:37.800
reactions going on. I feel better. And sometimes

01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:40.880
just when you push yourself so hard, and not

01:47:40.880 --> 01:47:43.060
every session is like this, right? But when you

01:47:43.060 --> 01:47:45.859
push yourself so hard and then you go and sit

01:47:45.859 --> 01:47:48.239
in your car, you go and walk home and everything

01:47:48.239 --> 01:47:51.479
is just like static, quiet, and you don't have

01:47:51.479 --> 01:47:53.399
anything going on in your head. You're not thinking

01:47:53.399 --> 01:47:55.760
about other crazy thoughts. There's nothing in

01:47:55.760 --> 01:47:58.000
the to -do list just because you're so exhausted

01:47:58.000 --> 01:48:01.539
from putting that work in and you feel good and

01:48:01.539 --> 01:48:03.840
you're walking out. That's probably my favorite

01:48:03.840 --> 01:48:06.640
feeling. So I'll go with exercise as my outlet.

01:48:07.239 --> 01:48:10.760
My healthy addiction. There we go. Well, for

01:48:10.760 --> 01:48:12.359
people listening now, let's start with Karna.

01:48:12.359 --> 01:48:14.539
Where can they find Karna, learn more, or even

01:48:14.539 --> 01:48:18.770
purchase? Yeah, so we have a website, karnabunkergear

01:48:18.770 --> 01:48:23.489
.com. C -A -R -N -A is Karna. It is actually

01:48:23.489 --> 01:48:26.130
the Roman goddess of health and vitality, specifically

01:48:26.130 --> 01:48:28.609
the inner organs. So that's where we got that

01:48:28.609 --> 01:48:32.069
name. And it's very fitting, in my opinion. We

01:48:32.069 --> 01:48:34.590
also have a social media account. We're on Instagram,

01:48:34.689 --> 01:48:37.489
probably most active, I would say. I try and

01:48:37.489 --> 01:48:41.159
post. educational things um and try and you know

01:48:41.159 --> 01:48:42.920
give guys information and things that are that

01:48:42.920 --> 01:48:45.399
are helpful so we try and give back to the community

01:48:45.399 --> 01:48:47.359
and try and give guys things that are that are

01:48:47.359 --> 01:48:49.359
going to help improve their health and safety

01:48:49.359 --> 01:48:51.659
whether that's fitness or cancer risk reduction

01:48:51.659 --> 01:48:55.479
stuff and we have some articles that i've written

01:48:55.479 --> 01:48:57.439
that are on the website as well and our email

01:48:57.439 --> 01:49:01.020
is carnabunkergear gmail .com feel free to reach

01:49:01.020 --> 01:49:03.760
out to us on any of those outlets we have like

01:49:03.760 --> 01:49:09.430
a contact information on the website where you

01:49:09.430 --> 01:49:13.130
can kind of fill in a request box for us to reach

01:49:13.130 --> 01:49:15.369
out to you so that's available there you can

01:49:15.369 --> 01:49:18.770
email us or you can message us on instagram or

01:49:18.770 --> 01:49:22.729
facebook beautiful any other areas for you specifically

01:49:22.729 --> 01:49:27.430
online or social media Yeah, I have a LinkedIn

01:49:27.430 --> 01:49:31.069
that I've been trying to use and I have my personal

01:49:31.069 --> 01:49:33.630
Instagram as well. And then anybody that emails

01:49:33.630 --> 01:49:35.970
us, if I respond back, I usually send my personal

01:49:35.970 --> 01:49:38.590
cell as well. So if you have any questions, concerns,

01:49:38.869 --> 01:49:41.149
whatever, shoot me a text, call me. I'm more

01:49:41.149 --> 01:49:43.569
than happy to talk to anybody about things, especially,

01:49:43.710 --> 01:49:46.569
you know, anything to anything to do with cancer

01:49:46.569 --> 01:49:48.850
risk reduction in the fire service. If I can

01:49:48.850 --> 01:49:50.789
answer the question, I will do so. If I don't

01:49:50.789 --> 01:49:52.609
have an answer to the question, I will try and

01:49:52.609 --> 01:49:54.630
find the answer or I will find a resource for

01:49:54.630 --> 01:49:58.050
you to. send you. Brilliant. Well, I want to

01:49:58.050 --> 01:50:00.210
thank you so much. It's been such an interesting

01:50:00.210 --> 01:50:02.810
conversation, not only obviously with the cancer

01:50:02.810 --> 01:50:05.029
element, but the strength and conditioning side

01:50:05.029 --> 01:50:07.569
too, with you having a background as an athlete

01:50:07.569 --> 01:50:10.710
and the academic side as well. So I want to thank

01:50:10.710 --> 01:50:12.930
you so much for being so generous with your time

01:50:12.930 --> 01:50:14.909
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

01:50:16.289 --> 01:50:17.989
James, thank you for having me, brother. And

01:50:17.989 --> 01:50:19.770
I think you're one of the best podcasters in

01:50:19.770 --> 01:50:22.789
the building, not just for the awesome podcast

01:50:22.789 --> 01:50:25.010
that you do, but for the British accent. I think

01:50:25.010 --> 01:50:27.270
you are top notch with that. And that's what

01:50:27.270 --> 01:50:28.409
sets this over the edge.