This episode is sponsored by yet another company
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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Geering, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter,
exercise physiology graduate, and the founder
of Karner Bunker Gear, Ryan Conley. Now, in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from
Ryan's journey into the world of powerlifting,
the science of training the tactical athlete,
PFAS, why he created a safe bunker gear that
we can train and work out in, firefighter fitness
standards, the work week, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Ryan
Conley. Enjoy. Brian, I want to start by saying
two things. Firstly, thank you to Jim and Nick,
because we met initially at the Brothers Helping
Brothers conference in exotic Beaver Creek, Ohio,
a few weeks ago. And secondly, I want to welcome
you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
James, thanks for having me, man. I appreciate
you. And yeah, it was a great. coincidental meeting
up there i'm very happy that we took the invitation
to to join that conference and i had a great
time up there i thought it was a super well -run
event and very um you know tight -knit community
so it's very cool to be a part of that absolutely
well very first question where on planet earth
be finding you today I'm actually not too far
from you. I'm over in Tampa, Florida. And I've
been a Floridian my whole life. So I grew up
in South Florida area, went to school, Florida
State, and then Florida Atlantic University for
my graduate. And I've worked at Cape Coral Fire
Department, which is Southwest Florida for over
10 years now. So I've been all over the state.
Brilliant. Well, let's start at the very beginning
thing. So tell me exactly where you were born
and then tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
Okay. Davie, Florida. It's by Fort Lauderdale
area. It's a small suburban area. We actually
had a lot of horse community. So that was kind
of cool growing up, seeing people riding horses
all the time. I grew up just a single child.
I have a half brother, but he's 18 years older
than me. So he's old enough to be my dad, but
we're good friends. Basically, I got into sports
at a young age, did a lot of competing in sports,
taekwondo, wrestling, combat sports really stuck
with me. I like to enjoy that a lot. And then
also I caught the iron bug. And ever since I
was young, I was always trying to figure out
different ways to improve performance. And eventually
that also turned into how to be healthy. So I
have a long standing relationship with sports
and fitness and general health. similar to yourself
so i appreciate your your podcast and all the
great information that you've been creating to
put out for first responders to try and help
improve their performance and their their health
and longevity so thank you for for doing that
well thank you for being part of it this is what's
crazy it's a library free library of 12 almost
1200 episodes now which is mind -blowing yeah
My wife just graduated from Nova Southeastern
as an optometrist, doctor of optometry. So I
was back and forth with Davey for almost four
years straight. Talk to me a little bit more.
I know you've got Western Ranches down there,
some other places. I think Florida was a big
cattle state for a long time. But you see still
some of the agriculture down there amidst the
super urban and suburban areas of Miami. What
was your childhood like and what has changed
now when you go back? You know what? It's still
very similar. Like I said, we were very much
suburban, a lot of middle class families. My
dad was a foreman for construction. Our neighbors
were welders and mechanics. So I grew up around
a lot of hardworking type guys. And my dad was
also older. So I think he was 45 when I was born.
So I had a little bit of a different upbringing
with that kind of generational. you know, hard
nosed type thing. And Davey was awesome. I couldn't
have asked for a better place to grow up. I still
have some lifelong friends that we grew up with.
One of them is actually my one of our business
partners. So we grew up together through high
school and we've known each other for over 20
years now. So it's cool to be able to to have.
long lasting friends from that area. And every
time I go back, we still just pick up with some
of the kids that we grew up with or knew from
high school or college, just like it was, you
know, we haven't missed a beat. So it is really,
it's cool to have that kind of community still.
And it's. It's interesting because it's the same
thing, the fire service, right? Like you meet
a lot of people that you just pick up and you
might not talk to for a couple of years because
you're a different station or a different shift.
And then as soon as you get back to it, you're
like, oh yeah, it's just like we never left each
other. So it was a good place to grow up. I appreciate
it now. Definitely looking back on it. You mentioned
being a sportswoman when you were younger. What
were you playing and doing as far as sports and
exercise in the school years? So I did all the
normal stuff, at least over here, soccer, football,
baseball, flag football. I never played football
in high school. My dad wouldn't let me, but I
wrestled. So we were a really good wrestling
school. We had nine kids go to state my junior
year and then four or five my senior year. i
really dived into that same thing started lifting
in high school really caught the iron bug in
like college time um and then i competed in powerlifting
after that for a decade a little bit over 10
years so i have always done some kind of athletic
events and i enjoy being competitive there's
something about that like extra you know drive
that keeps you on task it keeps you moving forward
it keeps you um on the correct path, right? Like
it doesn't give you room for error, room to deviate
and step away. So it kind of keeps you honest
with the goal and the tasks. So I've taken those
lessons from sport and kind of applied it into
business also with starting the company. And
it's all just hard work. What is this actually?
I actually just changed my screensaver yesterday.
So this was a quote I heard. Life basically is
pain, uncertainty, and constant work. So that
is what we know to be a fact. And that's kind
of how I feel sports are, the fire service, and
then same thing with running the business. So
taking those three little simple words and accepting
them is your fate. Absolutely. You mentioned
Taekwondo as well. Was it WTS? Were you doing
the full contact with the Hoku or was it the
ITF, the touch sparring? I think it was a touch
sparring. I mean, we had headgear. gloves, shin
pads, all that. And it was the point system.
So what was the first one? They were allowed
to grab the Wii? WTF was the Hoku. So that pad
that they wear on their torso. Oh, yes. Yeah,
we did that as well. Yes, we did that as well.
And then we actually did a year of Krav Maga,
the Israeli combat training. So we did that,
which was full contact boxing, head kicks, things
like that also. So that was also super fun. It's
funny because when I got into wrestling, I was
like, totally different it's grappling is completely
different than striking so it was a completely
new skill set that i had to learn but i loved
it so much because it was so difficult so so
uh different from what i was used to i did taekwondo
for quite a while as a teen a late teen um and
i just went on this constant humbling journey
then because i won national championships in
taekwondo and then joined boxing and just got
murdered and i was like well wait a second i
thought i was supposed to be good at this and
then and then got a little bit better and then
god went to muay thai and then they start kicking
me in the leg and i'm like wait a second what's
this and then went to jujitsu and then they started
strangling me i'm like for fuck's sake am i am
i any good at anything i cannot fight i've been
training for this my whole life and i can't do
it still everybody keeps changing the rules exactly
exactly well what about career aspirations were
you thinking of the fire service in high school
or was there something else in your mind No,
it actually wasn't even on my radar until after
college graduation for my undergrad. So I think
I knew that I wanted to do something either in
public service or exercise science. So at Florida
State, I went down the public service type avenue
and took criminology classes and like pre -legal
classes, courses. So I enjoyed that stuff a lot.
I think I got a minor in anthropology. I just
enjoyed learning. And then once I got out, my
ex -girlfriend at the time, her family lived
right next door to a captain at Hollywood, Florida.
And he was a firefighter and we started to talk
and we hit it off really well. He basically explained
to me more about the fire service and it sounded
like a challenge to me. So once I heard that
it was a challenge and it required physical and
mental, you know, composure, I was like, all
right, let me give this a try. So I submitted
my name to the academy and kind of just jumped
in with both feet and never looked back. And
you kind of cut out for a second on my end. What
year was that that you joined the fire service?
So I joined the fire service. I got hired in
20. And I went to the Academy in 2014. So I got
hired basically a year after I did a year after
I initiated the Academy. So not too long. And
I had basically my one of my mentors with was
a captain at Hollywood Fire Department. So he
had initiated me into explain to me what the
fire service was about. It stuck out to me. I
thought it was a challenge. And I kind of jumped
into that from there. How competitive was it
to get hired in South or in your case, West Florida
back in 2015? Yeah, it was definitely more competitive.
When we started applying, I remember that some
of the guys that I had went to high school with
that were a few years older than myself, they
had just gotten jobs and they went to the academy
and like. 08 09 2010 2011 so like after the economy
had crashed and nobody was hiring so they were
kind of a little bit of on a waiting freeze for
for the lack of term and um i was able to get
picked up around a year after but i got picked
up as an emt on the southwest coast and that's
not very common on the east coast so you usually
typically have to be a paramedic I had started
paramedic school, but I had got hired. So I couldn't
work on the West Coast and go to school in the
East Coast. So I dropped out from there. But
yeah, definitely. We had a lot more applicants
at the time and across the board, as you know.
And I know that's something that you've talked
about and discussed. And I see the same thing
now where the applicant pool is kind of thinning.
So I don't know if it's a generational thing
where there's just not enough workers in the
workforce. where the population has kind of changed
a little bit for working age, or if it's, you
know, you're also competing with other group,
other jobs that are, you know, trying to get
their attention and, and pay a healthy living
wage, you know? Yeah. Healthy living wage, healthy
living work week as well. That's the thing. Yeah.
Talk to me about the front door as far as fitness
standards and expectations. So. That's a big
thing for me. I could talk about this for hours.
So keep me on track if need be. We have hours.
Carry on. Fitness is something that I think everybody's
an athlete, right? I think Socrates said it where,
you know, every human and every man deserves
and should be training in some capacity for their
own physical fitness and physical health. So
with that being said, the fire service is probably
held at even a higher standard. They are held
at a higher standard. So you always need to be
in some kind of shape. And I don't want the I
don't want a random measurable to dictate whether
or not a firefighter can perform the job or not,
because there is really more to it than a metric.
But if you can perform the job and you can do,
you know, very hard demanding things, which is
what we do when you're in full gear on air, you
know, going into a hot burning building, trying
to do things that are cognitively challenging
and physically challenging at the same time.
So there has to be some kind of physical strength
capacity that. the firefighter has there has
to be some kind of physical aerobic capacity
that the firefighter has and they have to be
able to work under duress so if you can accomplish
those things i think you're doing the correct
uh you you're on the correct path and if we're
missing those things and we can improve in some
areas then you can either specifically try and
isolate some of those variables like improving
their strength improving their aerobic performance
operator training in areas that have you know
higher heart rate duration so high intensity
training things of that nature and if you play
with those variables and turn the knobs the right
way you can apply that to the individual and
at the individual level then you can make progress
with them on their specific areas that they need
improvement with, or if they just need to maintain
a certain level of strength. If somebody can
squat, if you have a 200 -pound athlete and they're
squatting 400, 500 pounds, they don't really
necessarily need to get stronger. uh to become
to be a good fireman but they need to make sure
that they have enough aerobic capacity so if
we can just maintain that base of strength you're
not doing hours of lifting you're just doing
stuff here and there and then you know making
sure that your aerobic capacity is met so you
see a lot of that with bigger athletes where
they need to make sure their cardiovascular fitness
is intact and then the lighter weight athletes
because their absolute strength isn't as high
and their relative strength uh compared to the
the weight and the load they're carrying with
ppe and tools and equipment and possibly dragging
other firefighters or victims, all of the heavy
burden that we can carry physically, they need
to sometimes work a little bit more on their
absolute strength. So I know that's a big window
to kind of peer through, but does that answer
some of it? Yeah, no, it does. I mean, I'm the
latter. So I'm definitely a smaller athlete that
had to work more on the strength and strength
endurance. When you look at what's expected of
us and the last place I worked, Reedy Creek,
you know, not known really for their fire, but
next to my station was a 30 -story apartment,
sorry, a hotel, 30 -story hotel. And so a high
-rise strip, which is nothing above and beyond
what you would need to carry. So basically, you
know, a length of hose, two spare bottles and
a tool. with your bunker gear and pack is 100
pounds on my 175 pound frame, 168 back then.
Now you're ascending 30 floors and then you arrive
where you actually begin to work. So when we
set these standards, it's not making up some,
well, what if you had to throw a 300 pounder
over your shoulder and run across America? No,
we're not saying that. Like the most basal thing
that we have to do could be taking a blood pressure
or it could be the scenario I just described.
So, you know, there is a need for not just a
standard, but a high standard. And I think, you
know, when you look at the CPAT or the Firesled,
the FPAT, I like those because no one then can
say it's not fair. Black, white, gay, straight,
Christian, Muslim, male, female, whatever the
label that you've given yourself, you either
can or you can't. These are the tools we need
in the fire ground. Are you operational or you're
not operational? Correct. Yeah. And I love the
fire sled and those guys. They've got a great
product, great group of dudes. And I know they're
around your area. So my hat's off to them. Big
fan of their stuff. And yeah, I mean, there has
to be some objective. And I think that when you
make it fire ground specific, like the combat
challenge, the fire sled, you're then capable
of saying, hey, these are movements and things
that we are doing in the fire service. movement
-specific, sport -specific, job -specific applications
to assess your fitness. It's not just putting
somebody on StairMaster and doing a VO2 max,
which is a helpful test, but it's not the job.
And the same thing with the push -up standard.
It's a helpful test, and I can glean a lot of
information from that to help firefighters. And
that's kind of where I see the blend of health
and fitness and firefighter performance. We have
the side of health and fitness, and then we have
the side of performance. To allow long -term
performance, especially in the fire service with
a long career of 20 to 30 years, you're going
to need to have a general foundation of health
and keep that health for a long time. You're
not a pro athlete. You're not in the military
just serving three or four years. You have a
long career ahead of you. So, you know, maintaining
a base of health and not beating yourself to
death is going to be very helpful for being able
to make it through to retirement and be able
to retire and be healthy. Not even just perform
the job, but what's on the back end also. so
do you have annual fitness standards in your
department we do so um i'm actually uh the one
of the wfi committee members so we do bi -annual
testing so every two years so we'll test half
the department um once a year so 50 % of the
department we test one year and then 50 % we
test the next year. So we're doing it always.
The crew is getting it done, you know, depending
on when their year is. But we have a really good
comprehensive health assessment. We work with
My Health Onsite. They're actually based out
of Orlando area, I believe. They work with a
few different fire departments and they're basically
contracted medical doctors and nurses and they
have a clinic on site. So they do that for the
entire city. We'll have our specific firefighter
blood panel where they take a ton of blood work.
We'll do a calcium score, which I think is awesome.
We're also looking now to try and also include
a... not a what's on top of the calcium score.
It's basically a calcium score with contrast
eye. So you can see if the plaque is soft. So
if you're meeting metrics where, you know, LDL
cholesterol and APOB are elevated above certain
levels, and you're also at age, they can then
take a next step and do that test as well. So
the calcium score is really good. It's a good
step up from some of the other things we used
to do. And, you know, x -rays for the chest.
what's the carotid artery they'll look at. And
I think, you know, the typical things, hearing,
eyesight, lung capacity, things like that. And
then you'd speak with a nurse practitioner and
a physician at the end of it, go through all
that data. And then once they meet that criteria,
they can go to the WFI. We'll conduct VO2 max
tests on incline treadmill run, pushups, wall
squats, or we do a broad jump instead of a vertical
jump. and shoulder mobility hamstring mobility
things of that nature a lot of what the the wfi
assessment is and we've tweaked it here and there
but overall it's a very good test i think it's
a great foundational tool we'll look at body
fat also along with bmi because bmi is not enough
data not enough info so looking at body fat and
where some of these some people are holding their
their body fat is helpful so one of the numbers
i've seen um which i think you you'll agree with
the folks that were below a 40 so with the vo2
max typically you want you see numbers around
44 45 milliliters per minute of oxygen as the
recommendations from the nfpa and different studies
that you you can see so with the st the test
that we typically do it's an equation based test
you want to give yourself about a 10 standard
error rate either way so i basically look at
40 to 50 is passing So anybody below 40, I want
to say it was like 20 % of our population from
what we tested last year. And within that 20%,
about 70 % of them were over fat. So for the
males, it was a body fat level of 20 % or higher.
So you definitely see a correlation between higher
levels of body fat and lower levels of aerobic
fitness. And that's well cited in the research
as well. And then secondarily, a big number that
sticks out to me is our blood pressure. On average,
I want to say 25 % of our department was normotensive,
so 120 over 70 or less. And then 25 % was stage
two hypertension, and 50 % was pre hypertension
or stage one. So you see that elevation in blood
pressure, which is not great for chronic health
across the board. And, you know, that's something
that I I would like to improve across the fire
service in general, but then also with my friends
and my brothers and sisters in the fire department.
So those are some of the numbers that I've seen
and that I think are relevant and that actually
make a difference between performance and health
and longevity. So those are the things that I
think I should be looking at specifically. Are
you held to an annual punitive fitness standard
or is it just more of the screening? So it's
not a fitness. It's not a punitive standard.
It's the screening. And then on top of that,
you know, giving them advice and trying to help
get them on the correct path. So we don't have
any punitive things set up. We're trying to create
more of a carrot in the stick where we're using
the carrot more so. And we're still figuring
that out. It's a work in progress. We do have.
full backing from the fire department and the
union is, has been supportive as well. So I think
that we were in a good environment, uh, trying
to work between the two and trying to, to make
forward progress. Um, and we'll see how that
goes. So. What about work week? I mean, this
is something that I speak about occasionally.
What are you guys working at the moment? So we're
at 24, 48, um, with a three week Kelly. Um, Obviously,
big fan of the Cali. And I also know a couple
of guys that work with us. So we're, what are
we at? I think we're close to 300 members online.
We're 13 stations. So a few of the guys that
I know came from 2472s up north. Not many, but
I know a couple that did work those. And they
are giant, giant fans of the 2472. So I know
that once DeSantis signed the bill to try and
allow or encourage departments to go. uh for
for the lower 40 -hour work week um that was
something that our department presented to the
city for our next rounds of negotiation in a
few years so it's either going to tentatively
you know 24 72s or double cali days however that
would look like but yeah i think that would be
That would be great. I'm a big fan of, you know,
getting adequate rest and sleep and, you know,
allowing people's HRV to recover and get back
to work and have enough time for their family
and their life. So I was trying to push, you
know, 24 hour shift and then get a Kelly. So
five days off, but I don't think they were going
to go for that. So. Every single time? Yep, every
time. I'm like, that was a hard shift. I think
we need five days off. I mean, this is the funny
thing. When you look at what we're trying to
get, the absolute gold standard is the 24 -72,
and that's a 42 -hour work week. And then you
look at the corporate world now, and they're
actually leaning into the 32 -hour work week,
and they're finding it incredibly... efficient,
productive, I mean, all the things, and they've
got a happier, healthier workforce, you know,
we're chasing something that that industry used
to have. And now they're moving even further
forward. So, you know, we joke about that. But
I mean, the people that you call 911 on your
worst day, wouldn't you want them to have at
least, you know, what the average person has,
if not even... less time so you know that's that's
a future conversation but um yeah the 24 72 i
mean at least at least 72 hours between every
single shift and i think with the kelly conversation
it's interesting because plano for example have
done this now they've put you know whether it's
you know three week kelly or like you said even
even more if you need a couple years three years
to get to the 24 72 then you can use a kelly
day as a stepping stone but you have to say That
is step one of the three -step plan to 24 -72.
What a lot of departments are doing now, they're
saying, oh, we'll just go to a Kelly for now.
Well, that doesn't fix anything. Actually, it
makes it worse because you just punch more holes
in your schedule and create more overtime, and
everyone's going to work their own Kelly day,
so you've just basically paid them time and a
half to take no rest whatsoever. But if you hire
enough people as you progress to the 24 -72 to
cover those Kelly days, then yeah, it's absolutely
a stepping stone then. So understanding that
nuance, I think, is important. Yeah. And I, I'm
a big fan of our front office. I think that we
have a good, I personally have a great relationship
with them. I think most guys respect the front
office as well now. And I know that that is their
goal is to start trying to overhire. And I know
that when you have the Kelly day, essentially
that's about half a shift. So when you eliminate
the Kelly day, you only need to fill another
half shift to make a D shift. So I know that
there's some, you know, chess pieces that we're
trying to move around and preemptively anticipate.
So we'll see how all that goes. But on the 2472
stuff, as far as that also is a, you know, obviously
the conversation is really about sleep, right?
So trying to figure out the best ways to facilitate
good sleep for guys. And that is something where
cancer risk prevention comes to mind. I mean,
I speak on this quite often where when you have,
it was one study, I think it was one single study
I looked at, but or two different studies, but
one of them was college age males at seven, less
than seven hours of sleep. So young, healthy
adults, not under a ton of stress, not firefighters,
not having high exposure rates to anything. And
their natural killer cells dropped by 40 % with
less than seven hours of sleep. And then when
they got four hours of sleep, so they were restricted,
I think they were only allowed to sleep from
midnight to 4am or 2am to 6am. they had a 72
% reduction in natural killer cells. So that's
extremely important because that is the immune
system's primary cancer fighting cell, as well
as just fighting the common cold, things of that
nature. So the immune system is essentially compromised
from this lack of sleep, and you're compounding
that as a firefighter with high levels of exposure.
So the high levels of exposure combined with
lack of sleep is really kind of one of the symptoms
of increased rates of cancer and then secondarily
heart disease as well. But that lack of sleep
really does a number on us in many different
ways, along with mental health, cancer, cardiovascular
disease, all of the above. So that is a grave
concern in my mind. And let's flip it around
on its head. What an incredible initiative to
be able to hit so many of these things that ail
the fire service with just one change. You want
to, A, like you said, just the number of exposures,
carcinogens or the mental health exposures. Well,
then if you've got a fourth shift, now you're
sharing that load a little bit more, not to mention
the elimination of unnecessary overtime where
you were getting even more exposures and even
less sleep. But the biggest bang for your buck,
like you said, taking the money, the downstream
money and putting it into, in your case, another
50 % of a shift and then boom, now you've got
four shifts, working healthy. getting over time
just when it comes around once in a blue moon
um you've limited the exposures and you've given
the body the rest and recovery to actually address
the things that don't turn into cancer then or
don't turn into addiction and suicide ideation
i mean it's it's such an in you know a powerful
initiative to really completely move the needle
in the fire service but there's also i can tell
you this from experience so much resistance to
it to the point where you know you hear most
people talking about cancer they talk about our
gear and we'll get to that and the carcinogens
in our gear when you talk about mental health
oh it's what ryan saw is what james saw and you
know if you look at both of those one of the
biggest contributors to both is sleep deprivation
absolutely yeah no i mean there's With all of
these conversations, there are nuances and important
caveats and details that really do make a difference.
And I like to explain all these things, especially
with the cancer risk reduction, mental health,
cardiovascular disease, all these things. It's
a high definition problem. And trying to treat
it like a low definition problem and trying to
create resolution from that and change from thinking
that it's a simple thing is not helpful. Now,
what is helpful is understanding that it's complex
and then trying to look at the individual details.
I'm like, OK, well, if I break all of these,
you know, underlying contributing issues up and
I look at them one by one and we start attacking
those and implementing strategies to try and
reduce some of those risks. Now we're going to
make a difference in, you know, reducing these
large comprehensive risks that are, you know,
really. The problem in the fire service and whether
or not guys want to admit that is, you know,
it's one thing, but it's there. The data is there.
The numbers are there. So I think that it's time
that we and I do see that guys are trying to
push and trying to make a difference. There is
obviously some some resistance, as you've seen,
as I've seen. But overall, there is definitely
more of a positive forward movement to trying
to improve our health amongst ourselves and each
other. It's not. You know, the fire service is
great at trying to help other people, but sometimes
we kind of forget to help each other and help
ourselves. So that's something that I can see
the wheel slowly starting to move. You know,
the implementation of more gyms across the country
and stations, the implementation of gross decon,
the implementation of trying to have, you know,
dispatch systems that aren't waking everybody
up in the station. So there's all these little
variables that we can play with. 24 -72s, like
all of these things help. And discussing them
and figuring out the pros and cons and how to
use them is really what's important in my mind.
To me, in this whole conversation, it's like
saying, well, we're having a problem with blood
on the carpet. So the person goes, well, why
don't we just get a carpet cleaner and we'll
just sop it up? We did that, but there's more
blood on the carpet. And then someone else points
out, well, wait a second, that guy over there
is bleeding. Well, no one's having the conversation
that there's a bloke with a knife in the room
that's running around stabbing everyone. Maybe
we should get him first, you know what I mean?
Because there are these nuances, but to me, that's
the biggest thing for us. And then, like you
said, what's beautiful is then you free up time,
you free up money, you have more motivated men
and women that then want to go to training. They
want to go to the gym. They sleep better. And
then it's just this kind of... amplification
of health then and then you can put in mandatory
fitness standards that are punitive because people
want to hold themselves to that standard and
you have you know access to pts when you do get
hurt you rehab properly you know so all these
areas because because we're so far and i'm sure
this will resonate with you you know particularly
with your background but when we have wellness
conversations we're talking about the strength
and conditioning nutrition we're talking about
well how can we die less well the other side
of the spectrum is the high level performance
How can James make it to the top of those 30
flights of stairs with his heart rate still at
a good rate and his breathing is still low and
he's optimizing his tank and he can still think
clearly? That's high tier one performance. That's
where we should be focused. But there's a big
chasm between where James is 100 pounds that's
trying to get him to not have a heart attack
on the fire ground to can he get those kids out
on the 30th floor? Yeah, no, that is such a great
point. And you said that very well. I thought
that was very well said. And that's the fun thing
to me is like playing with the performance, optimizing
the guys that want to train. And that was something
I got to do with our last class of new hires.
So I got to train them in the morning and we
basically split up into one. I think we trained.
four days a week so we had one high intent two
high intensity days where we were lifting weights
uh basically just doing some sumo deadlifts kettlebell
work um you know things of that nature and then
added on top of that some high intensity work
so sled pushes uh assault bike intervals things
that were really pushing their heart rate and
and pushing the pace and getting them to the
point where they were uncomfortable their legs
were smoked their lungs are burning like you
don't want to take another step or do anything
and by the end of that they're laying on the
ground you know trying to catch their breath
and and look like they're gonna die and that's
kind of the unfortunately that's kind of the
way that you need to push it sometimes and for
the ability to push the heart rate up into your
near -maximal heart rate zone. So doing things
that are going to really challenge you and get
your heart rate to feel like your heart is going
to change and explode out of your chest, and
for your lungs to just feel like you cannot catch
your breath. So that's a very important tool
to utilize. And then on top of that, the secondary
day was doing just steady state cardio. It's
very easy stuff. You can go low intensity to
moderate intensity, but we're not pushing to
the point where they can't recover. They're not
able to push. They're able to maintain a good
work pace for 20 to 60 minutes. And we built
that up over the time. So you've got resistance
training. So they're building strength. They're
doing. uh explosive work with body weight jumps
throws things of that nature in their warm -up
they're doing high intensity interval work where
they're getting their heart rate up super high
And then they're doing low intensity work to
build their aerobic fitness base, you know, allow
mitochondria to adapt, allow their their tissues
to be able to perfuse and use these nutrients
and oxygen. So when you can kind of facilitate
intelligent training and implement that into
guys foundation in the fire service, I think
that goes a really long way into teaching them
how to train and then they can kind of take that
on with them throughout the rest of their career.
And that's what we'll. facilitate long -term
performance, I think is getting it, getting them
hooked right off the bat. As soon as they're
in the, and they, they never fall off. You just
keep them on it. You keep the culture and the
fire service and the fire department wanting
to work out and wanting to stay in shape. And
obviously having some kind of equipment helps.
But yeah, that's, that's the long -term strategy
to me is getting them, getting them on as soon
as possible, getting them addicted to working
out and performance. And then they see the results.
And we did a before and after where we did a
combat challenge test before and then we did
one after. Every one of them was like, I feel
it was so much easier. I feel so much better.
And I'm like, all right, then we did what we
needed to do. And your time's improved. It was
great. So I was very happy with that. And I hope
that, you know, we continue to do that and continue
to cultivate that in our department. It's interesting.
When I got hired at Reedy Creek. You know, I
went through the hiring process and there were
a couple of classes, I think, after me. And it
was you just got hired. You did the admin paperwork.
You went around the theme parks. You rode some
rides, you know, and that was it. I mean, really,
I'm not exaggerating. You didn't have anything
that tested you in any way, shape or form. And
it wasn't a cohesive class. It really wasn't.
And prior to that, I'd had absolute crucibles,
Hialeah and Anaheim. And we, you know, we were.
friends for life and I've still I just went down
to Hialeah a few weeks ago and hung out with
my original instructor and one of my classmates
and it's so nice going to a drill ground realizing
you're not the student anymore but in Reedy Creek
that year and I'll give kudos to some of the
you know the spark plugs in the creek that have
been really trying to get a good fitness um uh
you know it's um oh my goodness like peer fitness
trainers in that that department um despite the
department I'll be honest and that year collectively
we were able to to get them to let us do PT for
the new hire class. And there was a few people
in there that thought they were just going to
ride rides and scared the shit out of them when
they realized they're going to have to actually
do real firefighter stuff. But the rest of the
class were awesome. And, you know, we spent,
I think it was four weeks PTing them. And at
the end of it, that tower I told you. we put
all you know everyone had gear on and i put a
bunch of stuff on we climbed the 30 floors and
we stood on the roof and took a picture and the
reason i'm saying that it was the same kind of
stuff that you were talking about sandbags and
sleds and all functional stuff not trying to
humiliate someone giving them some days that
were okay a little taste of the pain cave and
some days that were deload days but at the end
there was a sense of pride like Congratulations,
you made it through this and now you are Reedy
Creek Firefighters. And I had some of the guys
say, look, I've worked for one or two departments
prior and that was the best orientation PT we've
ever had. And it's not just me, there were a
few of us. But that is the point. When you have
that bar set high at the front door, it brings
that class together. Yes, of course, you could
see if anyone needs to be cut loose, if they
just don't want to put the effort in. But more
importantly, everyone that's there for the right
reason, there's this feeling of, you know achievement
at the end of it and this bonding that you get
through shared suffering so i think that's another
value of a strong orientation with the bar held
high is that you're going to have that camaraderie
through the rest of your career yeah yeah no
i agree and i i love that class i thought they
were a bunch of good dudes we were i don't want
to say i was lucky but they were all younger
guys you know 25 maybe 26 at their oldest so
all of them had some kind of sport background
uh it was fun to train them and i know that they
I've seen a shift in our department. Like when
I got hired, fitness was not you didn't work
out on duty. There was, you know, makeshift gyms
here and there. There wasn't, you know, matching
equipment. It wasn't really a thing, especially
as a probie or a young guy. Like it was not OK.
So now that I see like I was just acting yesterday
as lieutenant, which is basically a captain in
most departments. So one of my probies is like,
hey, like, do you mind writing me a workout?
Because I. trained him through orientation. And
I was like, yeah, man, absolutely. So he's working
out at three in the afternoon. I'm like, that
would have never happened when I was on probation.
So it is cool to look at that like 10 years later
and see the shift in the culture. And I'm happy
and proud to see that for sure with our department.
And I know that we definitely are a more health
and fitness oriented department. So, and the
camaraderie that comes from that is awesome.
You know, guys working out with each other and
From the trainer perspective, the only caveat
I have with this is one size fits all doesn't
always work for guys that are a little bit behind.
in in certain areas like you said like you're
not trying to embarrass people you're not trying
you're just trying to get them up to standard
right so trying to throw them into uh you know
a very challenging workout like just say like
a hard crossfit workout or a murph like tossing
them into something like that is not productive
um you have to start them where they're at and
meet them where they're at and that really is
just a you know basing training off people's
individual levels of fitness is that ideal like
no obviously we want every everybody to be a
stud we want everybody to be you know coming
out the gates hot every time but that's really
not the reality we live in so when you have guys
that are you know a little bit behind or are
not as strong or not as is in shape you have
to give them something to make progress and when
they make progress then you can push it harder
and harder as time goes on but they have to start
somewhere and you have to meet them where they're
at that's what i love about the strongman influence
too is that i don't know if you found this but
Not so much in the brand new recruit, but the
guys that have been on a while that you're trying
to get back into it. Because I do a lot of seminars
within the department itself. And if I had to
get them to do a snatch, they're going to be
like, no, I'm not doing that. But if you just
say, pick up that sandbag and walk over there,
they're like, well, I could do that. Push that
sled or drag that sled back. Well, I can do that.
And you're still challenging them the same kind
of way, but you're taking out that kind of skill
element. And you're making it more fire ground
specific anyway. I mean, you know, you carry
a sandbag. It's like carrying a dummy or carrying
foam to the engine. You know, you drag push.
It's like a hose or a human. But I found that.
And then once you get the confidence up, then
you incrementally load without, like we said,
humiliating them. Because there are people that
are deconditioned that are extremely embarrassed
about it. And that's okay. You know, there was
no standard in this profession. So we've got
to bring you back. person i have no time for
is the one that's not willing to put the work
in to get back yeah and that's a i i saw that
i saw something similar to that um the last couple
years with one of my buddies who's on my crew
and he wasn't an athlete growing up he's got
45 or so he's an older dude in the fire service
for being a firefighter um and he's um you know
mechanic redneck like he's funny awesome dude
great great guy and he just started working out
with um one of the other driver engineers there
And literally every shift, he would push a sled.
It was a circuit. Sled push, push -ups, sandbag
carry. Sometimes they would throw it over the
shoulder. And I think walking lunges. And he
would do that for like 30 minutes every single
shift. And he got in better and better shape.
And that's just his standard. He does that. He
doesn't think about it. He just goes out and
does it. And I'm like, that's awesome. Like,
I love seeing that. And it's not... you know
high -end training and and programming and stuff
that i nerd out and geek out on but he's i'm
like he's doing everything that he needs to do
and staying in shape at an older age which is
i love seeing that and it was cool to watch him
do that because that wasn't you know part of
his lifestyle prior and him talking about how
much better he felt was was cool to watch so
yeah absolutely and i love that too when i when
i first was in um basically the last two departments
really i would be out on my own doing at that
time CrossFit, you know, and for weeks and weeks
and weeks, it was just me. And, you know, someone
would come out and maybe make a joke and then
go back in and watch TV. But then something shifted.
And one day someone said, I want to do this with
you. And then one became two, two became three,
four. And then all of a sudden I would be on
a day off and come in, you know, maybe come down
to the theme park with my son or something. And
I'd swing by the station and the whole crew is
out there working out. And you're not even there
anymore. So this is the other thing too, is that
if you can take those first steps and again,
not humiliate someone, make them comfortable
just being at whatever level they are, you know,
now that wheel is turning and you can, you can
step away and now, you know, that crew will continue
doing it. So that was, that was very powerful
to see that if you just light a fuse, that's
all you've got to really do. Then you can step
back and, you know, go light a fuse somewhere
else. Yeah. You were the catalyst to progressive
change. for the levels of fitness in your guys
no i love it the uh and it also helps with mental
health again like coming back to all that stuff
dude actually yeah small tangent for exercise
and fitness that's another staple in my mind
for you know sleep and exercise and fitness right
obviously you talk about this stuff all the time
as well but cancer risk reduction i think 30
to 40 percent of cancers are um potentially reduced
from not being obese and just being in shape
so Right off the bat, you have a giant tool to
leverage just by not being overweight and working
out and exercising. We see that with cancer survivors.
We see that with guys that are coming back from
cancer and also during cancer. If you are exercising,
doing some kind of resistance training, chemo
works better. You're going to recover better.
All these things like you have such an amazing
tool at your disposal and all it takes is a little
bit of effort and give a shit and sometimes some
education. So like that is needed as well. And
then once they get into it, it really just has
such compounding benefits. But yeah. Exercise
is obviously great for mental health. It's great
for cancer risk reduction. It's great for cardiovascular
disease. And again, all three of these are something
that are burdens or things that we carry in the
fire service. Sleeping, making sure that you're
on top of your sleep and making sure that you're
taking care of it off duty as much as possible
is a priority in my mind for the individual.
And then ensuring that you're working out whether
it's on shift or off shift is also on the individual.
And then the department needs to try and facilitate
the best possible ways to allow guys to sleep.
as much as possible when they are not called
for emergency services and facilitate guys with
equipment that they, that is going to allow them
to be healthier, stronger, better shape for longer.
So, you know, a barbell is not expensive. Sandbags
aren't expensive. They're not that much of an
investment when you look at the grand scheme
of things for how long it's going to last. I've
had a barbell, you know, we've, barbells are
going to last 20, 30 years. Like they're pieces
of steel. that are made to get beat up like so
to me it's not it's a no -brainer in my mind
um but i think the uh the the overall trend towards
pushing this tactical fitness all of this this
type of blend of performance and health is is
just vital for for forward progress in the fire
service and that becoming a standard is something
that i look forward to for sure 100 I did, uh,
sports science in England and then finished off
here in, uh, in Florida, UF, um, exercise science.
What made you get into the academic side? And
then how has that, um, become a value for you
on the fire side? For sure. And I, I definitely
want to, I would want to ask you what you saw
the difference between the two from England to
coming over here academic wise and what you,
what you saw and learned. Um, so academic wise,
I. I'm a nerd. I love learning stuff. I got my
undergraduate degree in criminology, like I said,
and I basically self -educated myself, different
certifications, reading all the time, trying
to just learn things and apply things to my powerlifting
performance and then eventually firefighting.
So I was always doing that. I was coaching and
training people. So I had a lot of hands -on
and development training. Physique athletes,
other powerlifters, my mom, kids, across the
gamut of things, being able to see how people
responded to different training stimuli. And
then my girlfriend at the time was doing her
graduate degree at USF in Tampa. And I got exposed
to more of the academic setting. I went and sat
in on some classes. I was really intrigued. I
loved learning and hearing what they had to say.
And I started reading more studies. So instead
of just, you know, because people cite stuff
all the time and I'm like, is that real? Is that,
you know, is that actually what it's saying?
So I would start reading the studies on my own.
And at first I was super confused. It is very
hard to read published literature. And eventually
I just got a little bit better at it, a little
bit better at it, a little bit better at it.
And I started looking for programs that would
allow me to do that while I was still working.
At the time this was pre -COVID, there really
wasn't much available. Like there was some online
colleges, I think Cal Penn State or something
like that. It was a weird blend of Pennsylvania
and California, but it was very expensive. So
I had kind of kept that on the back burner and
just, you know, was thinking about it as an alternative
thing. And COVID happened and FAU created a fully
online graduate degree in exercise physiology.
The guy that ran the department was somebody
that I had known from Florida State. We had competed
in some powerlifting competitions together. So
I applied. I got in on a waiver basically saying
that I had to keep a certain GPA. I think I wound
up getting all A's or maybe some A minuses. So
I kept the waiver the entire time and was able
to graduate. I think two and a half years with
a graduate degree while working full time. The
department paid for the degree. I think I only
came out of pocket like $3 ,000, $4 ,000 maybe
over the time course of the thing. And I loved
it. So I then took that, continued to read literature.
I dived a little bit more into some of the cancer
side of things. So trying to learn a little bit
more about cancer, trying to learn a little bit
more about firefighters and heat, how heat affects
firefighter performance. trying to see what was
going on with cancer in the fire service. Like,
where was this coming from? What was some of
the studies showing? And what were some of the
preliminary data on PFAS, things of that nature?
And it was a really big, it was a really large
amount of data, except for the PFAS. So PFAS
is still something that's fairly new, but I really
enjoyed trying to create a picture. So that I
could understand that I could also call, you
know, bullshit on other things that I would heard
or see that people were either. And this is the
same thing with science. Science is what you
learn in high school, right? I mean, you're supposed
to have an idea, you have a theory, you test
the theory, you try and, you know, come up with
an objective, honest outcome based answer for
what you find during the study. Now, every study
has its limitations. You've got cohort studies
that are going to look at large swaths of the
population. You're not going to control a lot
of variables with that. And that's part of the
study. You're allowing people to free live and
you're looking to see what's actually changing.
But obviously, you're not going to have the ability
to manipulate their exercise or their food or
any of these things. And then you have other
things that are laboratory studies where we're
looking at a cell in a Petri dish and how does
it respond to this inflammatory marker and things
of that nature? How does this cancer cell respond
to this? And then you have other studies that
are looking at tightly controlled experiments
where you have a person living in a metabolic
ward and they're getting three meals a day and
they're counting these scientists and nutritionists
are counting every single calorie that these
people are consuming. And you can literally have
all of these. tightly controlled variables, controlled
in a living human being. So with all that being
said, you have pros and cons of all these different
types of research. And what you're supposed to
do is look at all of it together, see what the
evidence is trying to show you, right? Like,
what is the picture being painted from all this
different data set, and understand what the limitations
are, because obviously, every study is not going
to be it is not a 100 % encompassing answer.
This is not the solution to the problem. You're
just trying to see what on average everything
says. So with that being said, some people misinterpret
research on accident. It's just, they're not
understanding what they're seeing. Or unfortunately,
there's people that completely misinterpret data
on purpose to try and fit their narrative, which
we are humans, you know, people tend to do things
to benefit themselves sometimes that is not honest.
And that even can occur in science. So it's not
common, but it does occur. I've seen scientists
and heard of scientists that have completely
falsified data in order to secure funding. And
eventually those papers usually get retracted
and they get in trouble and they lose all respect
and self -esteem. So across the gamut of all
this stuff, I jumped into this. I loved trying
to figure out this picture on firefighter health,
firefighter performance, and having a really
good foundation for reading the literature and
being able to interpret that for the guys in
the fire service, for the guys and the girls
in the fire service, so that they don't have
to do it. Because I know they're not doing it.
And there is a disconnect between what is being
studied and what they're finding out there in
some of these research and what is being communicated.
to the fire service itself so i want to try and
be you know a voice in a medium to communicate
some of this information a perfect example of
what you're talking about and again i don't mean
to repeat this to vilify the person who did the
study but i had joel billings on the show he
did the study and this is this again taking a
bigger step back the fact that we're not guiding
researchers to do research in the right areas
is a failure of the fire service so let me put
that back on our shoulders But Joel did a study
of comparing a 2448 to the 4896. And conclusion,
small sample size, the 4896 is healthier. Fire
service runs with it. You actually listen to
Joel talking about the study. A, it was a small
sample size, but he studied a department that
ran one call a shift, less than one call at night.
Yeah. And you have Seattle and all these departments
go, well, this is obviously perfect for us because
they haven't looked. The second thing is, if
you look at what the actual takeaway was, the
second half of the 48, because the firefighters
weren't having to get in a car like I used to
at five in the morning, drive 70 miles to work
and then arrive sleep deprived at the beginning
of your shift. They slept all night, woke up
in their own bed in the station. They had a better
quality of sleep for that actual second shift
day. Where that actually is advantageous is if
any department in the whole of America that works
24 hours. has the option to start whenever the
hell they want because they finish at the same
time. So you move that to 11 a .m., 12 noon.
Now you've gleaned that one advantage of what
that study showed. But apples to apples, I don't
know of a single department that runs zero calls
pretty much every night and one call a shift.
There might be a station outlying somewhere,
but as a whole, most of the guys are getting
their dicks kicked in 24 -7. So this is what
they say. Little knowledge is a very dangerous
thing. And they took that study. And again, no
fault of Joel's. He went in just thinking he
was doing a study of a department. And the ripple
effect of that literally has people, and I see
it on the comments now, saying the 48 -96 is
better than 24 -72. To clarify that, 56 hours
a week is better than 42 hours a week. So this
is a perfect example, in my opinion, of how you
can take science, a study that you don't truly
understand, run with it, and do insurmountable
damage in a profession. Yes. That is I unfortunately
have not heard that yet. And I that hurts my
soul to hear that. And that is a great example.
That is a misinterpretation of the data. And
when you speak to the guy that did that created
the study, he is obviously informing guys that
they're, you know, not reading it correctly.
But once that's out there, it's out there and
people have their mind made up. They hear one
thing at a conference and that that is what it
is. And I was even speaking at a department a
few. like a year ago and this was prior to the
most recent study that came out for sauna usage
from i think finland or norway and the data at
the time was basically just saying that actually
i don't know if this had come out yet that there
was no harm coming from using saunas in the fire
service because that was an original thing was
potentially it could be harming you because you're
opening up the pores allowing more carcinogens
come in so anyways this smaller department uh
the fire chief at the time he's no longer there
he wanted guys to jump off the rig and hop into
asana immediately no shower no decon none of
this and that is dumb now they didn't know any
better and they've consulted or spoke with a
professor at a seminar or a conference, she informed
them that that was not intelligent to do. And
that was what was in his mind was that now forever
from that point on, he didn't think saunas were
good for you, for firefighters. So I'm like,
okay, guys, there's extremes that are happening
here. So yeah, I really try and do my best to
speak in a way that makes sense for guys, and
that it's applicable. because you can really
just this it's it's just all over social media
it's not just a fire service there's so much
out there it drives me insane and when you have
a good radar because you have a background in
it such as yourself you know what to look for
and you you can hear when you hear when you you
know when you hear it Unfortunately, a lot of
guys don't have the background of exercise physiology,
of training, etc. But it's the same thing as
somebody who works on their own vehicles going
to a mechanic and the guy's blowing smoke up
his ass for, oh, it's going to be $800, $1 ,000
to change your front brakes. That's ridiculous.
It's a 30 -minute job and the brake pads are
50 bucks. So when you have an understanding of
what you're listening to, you have a much better
ability to stuff, shuff off the bullshit. In
the fire service, we don't have that background.
So that's where I think that it's so important
for guys like you and me to be able to try and
facilitate these conversations, listen to some
of the experts in the field, hear what they're
actually saying, and communicate that to the
guys online and be like, hey, I know this is
what you thought it was. This is actually what
they meant to say. And then they're most likely
to be like, oh, that makes sense. Yeah, okay.
Yeah, let's do that instead. But, you know, so.
It's not easy. And I try my best to explain this
stuff and make it make sense to guys. What you
need to do. So yeah, school helps you. It teaches
you how to think, right? And it gives you a good
foundation for having the bullshit detector in
my mind. I think that's really where the important
stuff is. Yeah, no, I agree. Well, let's kind
of walk through to Carnegie then. You've been
in the fire service since 2015. What was that
journey from carcinogens, from exposures in the
actual incidents themselves, maybe your kind
of education on PFAS, and then what made you
develop an alternative to that? Yeah. So like
everybody, I mean, you know, you jump in the
fire service. into a fire academy you're not
thinking much of what you're told to do it's
just the way we do things and there's only so
many you know types of clothing you can wear
that are going to protect you in a 400 degree
burn so um when you're you know at that age you
just get some hand -me -down clothing or some
rental some rental turnout gear and go about
your life and don't know anything you know and
uh eventually we got to the point where we were
exposed to gross decon uh that was done by the
um the guys at the state of florida we had a
really good group of of guys with the cancer
uh anti -cancer um god what is the they're gonna
kill me the florida fire florida firefighter
uh cancer association No, anyways, there's some
awesome dudes down there. They went and lobbied
and they're the ones that got the green buckets
on our apparatus. So I started seeing that and
I was like, oh, okay. So we want to scrub ourselves
after we get out of a fire, trying to get off
some of these particulates. And I'm like, what
are particulates? What is some of the stuff we're
exposed to in general? So some of my good friends,
they were pretty avid. trainer working out in
gear right they uh would train in gear almost
every single day on shift um and i was like all
right it sucks that these guys are exposing themselves
unnecessarily when they're trying to do the right
thing and trying to make themselves better firefighters
and it's awesome that they're my friends and
they're badasses but it's also not cool if 30
years down the road they get cancer and die um
based on, you know, an accumulation of exposures
throughout a career. So I was like, why don't
we just look at this like a sports scientist
and see that we need gear that is heavy, bulky,
restrictive, and keeps heat trapped. We don't
need to be wearing our frontline gear that's
expensive, number one. And second, it's never
going to be fully clean because no matter how
you clean the equipment or the PPE, it's always
going to have some level of contamination once
it is exposed to an ideal age atmosphere. So
we can just make something that mimics frontline
gear. So we kind of had that revelation driving
back from the gym one day, me and my good friend
Zach, who's also my partner. i bought a set of
old morning pride gear i located a designer up
in north florida she said that she could tear
it apart and remake something based off that
design into using the material that that she
deemed appropriate um that didn't require any
you know flame retardant ability that didn't
require the ability to go into an ideal h atmosphere
or live fire or live burn and it just made the
user hot sweaty and mimicked frontline bunker
gear. So at that point in time, we got a demo
set. I tried it on. I was like, hey, this will
work. So we kind of hit the ground running, found
another manufacturer, made a few suits and went
from there. And then as far as the research goes,
I was in my master's degree at the time. So I
was reading studies constantly. And when this
idea came to me, I was like, okay, I need to
verify that this makes sense. So let me start
digging through all the literature I can and
verifying that this concept, that it holds weight,
it holds water, that I'm not just thinking it's
a good idea and there's a giant hole in my theory.
So I read as much research as I could. I looked
at exposures for firefighters. Obviously, we
see the cancer rates are high. And then on top
of that, okay, why are these cancer rates high?
What are some of the things we're coming into
contact with? PAHs were polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.
That is one of the oldest known human carcinogen
in occupational cancer. So that was actually
found in English chimney sweeps that were young
boys back in the late 1800s. So that was the
first documented occurrence of this happening.
And they were having higher rates of testicular
cancers at young ages. So this was kind of the
first documentation of that. That is a... compound
or a particulate that we come in contact with
all the time. It's probably the number one particulate
that firefighters encounter because it is a incomplete
combustion of an organic substance. So that happens
to be in about everything that burns. And that
is something that, you know, we've known for
a long time. And that's where respirators kind
of came into play, where we're using self -contained
breathing apparatus. The SCBAs have been in the
fire service for multiple generations now, but
we still see an increase in cancer rates. Like
they're not going down as quickly as they should
if that was the solution and the only problem
that we were encountering okay so where are the
rest of these exposures coming from dermal absorption
seems to be the primary answer that we're missing
and that's kind of been elucidated in the past
10 years of the research so you're seeing things
like phs that even a low dose of that is going
to have the absorption of 20 to 50 % of a very
small amount over about six hours. So that's
where they kind of come up with the shower within
the hour. When you're doing things like that,
you're getting the chemicals off your skin quicker
and sooner than later, hopefully prior to long
-term absorption. You have heavy metals that
you're coming into contact with, especially now
with electrical vehicle fires. I think that that's
something that's on the horizon that is a potential
hazard. You have flame retardants. We've seen
multiple studies that flame retardants are higher
on firefighters, both before and after fires
than a typical population. And that's studied
on American citizens and French and Italian,
I want to say. So we see higher levels of pHs
and flame retardants on them. Exposures to heavy
metals. And then we also have the PFAS, which
is something that is what I like to call like
a gateway conversation to most guys. So most
people weren't really talking about all these
other chemicals at all. PFAS was something that
obviously had national publicity and national
media exposure. And guys were curious to what
it was. Why was it in firefighter gear? Why was
it hurting us? And what exactly do we do about
it? So with all that being said, you've got...
you know, four or five chemicals that I, and
microplastics, sorry, I forgot that one, that
we have a lot of research on for, you know, respiratory
dermal absorption, all of the above. And then
when you go into any house fire, you're seeing,
I think, north of a hundred different potential
carcinogens. I think that's a quote from the
NFPA, might be the IFF, but. You have so many
exposures that sometimes it's not even worth
counting what exactly they are. We just know
that going into smoke and particulates is not
helpful. It's not good for you. So trying to
reduce that absolute exposure load over time.
And then we also see in the research that the
guys that are firefighters that are just going
to work, they're not even catching a fire. They're
not working a fire. when they come off shift,
they still have higher levels of pHs and flame
retardants on them than when they were prior
to coming into shift. So overall, you know that
we're having some level of exposure, just going
to the fire station, throwing your gear on, touching
the apparatus, being around this environment
that has particulates and exposures that have
been cross -contaminated across the department
or across the station. So it's a big... Big picture
type thing, but I think that's a good starting
point to throw us off the ledge of cancer risk
reduction in the fire service. It's funny you're
talking about the chimney sweep because just
going back to the work week for a second, when
I did the presentation at the Florida Professional
Firefighters Association Conference, I used that
example. The way we've always done it, well,
we used to have children working in factories
and six -year -olds going up chimneys. and when
they started dropping like flies someone finally
said well wait a second maybe this we shouldn't
be doing this and i think it's the same with
what we're talking about with the shifts and
all the other things is you know with the gear
i mean everything that we're talking about is
how many firefighters do have do we have to lose
before we say all right the way that we're doing
it isn't working so it's interesting that you
use that analogy yeah yeah um and the gear kind
of came to forefront in my mind, because I'm
like, okay, this is one variable that we have
that is completely within our control. We do
not need to be wearing our frontline gear when
we're just doing drill yard stuff, which is 90
% of guys training, right? You just go to a two
minute drill, force a door, do a search, flow
some water, whatever it is, throwing ladders.
A lot of the training that we do every day doesn't
require thermal protection. So why are we exposing
ourselves unnecessarily? to a dermal exposure
to a set of gear and fabric that is going to
be exposed for the rest of its life now does
that mean that we you know don't need to be doing
gross decon or you don't need to be washing your
gear no like all of these things are variables
that we need to be doing in the fire service
and that's where kind of what you talked about
before where i had mentioned there's multiple
different things that we look at and try and
you know start crossing each one of those off
the list right there's some things that are going
to be bigger bang for your buck so 24 72s right
we're limiting exposures you're limiting uh you're
increasing guys amount of sleep and then you
also have things like going into fires with your
bunker gear if you're wearing particulate blocking
bunker gear research has shown that the particulate
blocking bunker gear is going to block about
10 ish percent more particulates than traditional
bunker gear so the particular blocking gear is
kind of improving efficiency in that interface
area where the pants are tight around the boots
there's kind of like an elastic band there so
you're not having like an open pathway for vapors
to come up in between the gear and the user and
then same thing with the waistband around the
coat so that they're not getting exposure around
the torso and when they were doing that research
you can see pictures of the guys and they would
have large amounts of particulates around their
neck, which is where that interfaces with the
hood and the jacket around their bottom of their
waist, where the coat stops and the pants start,
and then around the bottom of their ankles and
calves and areas like that. So you've got some
of these heavy hitter things that you can do,
like improving your year, making sure you're
wearing your respirator at all times. Even if
you're pumping a truck, if you're first due on
a fire scene and you're standing in front of
the house, their study done in Tucson from 2015
to 2019, they're seeing a 40 % reduction in urinary
PAHs. So after the body has metabolized the pH
that it's inhaled, they are seeing a reduction
of 40 % of those if the engineers were putting
on their SCBA packs at the scene of the fire.
So you have all of these different variables
that we can kind of look at and use. And in my
mind with the carna gear, that was just another
variable and another tool. I'm like, I want to
help the fire service. I want to help reduce
these numbers of cancer deaths and bring this
number back into a, just bring it down, right?
Try and improve our health and longevity in the
fire service and allow guys to enjoy their retirement.
Our tool with carna bunker gear is just one tool.
It is not a panacea. It is not the fix of cancer
in the fire service. And I think that. allowing
guys to hear some of the other opportunities
to try and reduce cancer that we're talking about
and we're explaining. I think that also gives
them a little bit more respect where it's, we're
not just selling a product. Like we are trying
to sell a better fire service. And that is ultimately
our goal. We do have a product that meets one
of the needs, the many needs that we have in
order to do so. When you talked about saunas,
it takes me back to interviewing Stefan and David
from healthy firefighters, the Swedish. swedish
guys that came up with the scalefe model in the
first place and there was this big kind of you
know up up in arms about the the clean cab and
you know you hear this bullshit phrases like
clean cab stop grabs and i'm like oh for fuck's
sake so you leap off a fire engine with your
cape and you just fly straight into the front
door but i get it you know like You obviously
can't make a fire engine completely sterile either.
So there's that middle ground, but you know,
sitting, breathing your gear, this off gassing
makes no sense. And I'm being a Tilleman in California.
We didn't have the pack in the doghouse. It was
down in the compartment beneath us. So you realize
just how quickly you can throw on a pack. So
even just from a crash point of view, if you
don't have that pack digging you into the back
and you know, the ability for it to be a projectile.
It just makes it safer to step off the rig and
then get a pack. So there's a lot of kind of
middle ground that you can glean a lot of these
things without pretending that it's going to
be zero exposure now. And so I really like that
model. I like the second set of gear. I like
the, you know, completely cleaning the pack.
And because that kind of hosy, soapy, brushy
thing that we do, we know damn well that's not
actually deconing the, you know, the pack. A
machine has to do that. So I really like that.
But yeah, so it's more about, look, There's all
these things set up against us. What are the
things that we can do to reduce the exposures?
And then conversely, like we talked about, and
with the human being, what can we do to boost
the immunity, to boost the ability to deal with
these insults? And I had my PFAS blood work done
a few months ago, and it was off the charts,
off the charts. So I'm hoping that the probiotic
that they're working on now. that um that will
actually work antibiotics that will work because
i mean so many of us are just dripping in pfas
and that's just you know like you said one of
them so it makes perfect sense to me and that's
why we we talked you know why not like there's
a whole argument should you or shouldn't you
work out with your gear on Well, if depending
on what you're doing, you can do it in gym shorts
and a t -shirt, you know, but there's times where,
yeah, you have to be in the pain cave and something
that simulates your gear. So why not do something
that doesn't expose you even more so that you
can limit those to when you absolutely have to
put your gear on and go to an ideal age environment.
Yeah. There's so many, there's like three things
I want to touch on after you said that. That
was a great segue. uh the probiotics is super
cool um i thought of that and it's funny because
my detector went off when i heard that at first
i was like i don't know if this is legit and
one of my uh good friends at work he had sent
me your podcast where you mentioned it and i
looked into it i'm like wow this is legit and
i started thinking about it i'm like well i know
that The fiber in oatmeal and fiber in general
helps to kind of attract and bind some of these
particulates and exposures, PFAS included. And
that's one way of passing some of these particles
and microplastics as well. So I was like, okay,
yeah, this is legit. And this is something I
look forward to seeing in the future, the release
of that and seeing if it can grab a hold in the
fire service. That's something that's super cool.
I kind of geeked out about that. There was something
else you'd said for, yeah, going into the pain
cave and stuff with guys trying to, you know,
figure out what kind of workout they're doing
that day and all of the above. Training and building
that base level of fitness is something that
you don't have to be in gear every single day.
And that's another thing that we discuss and
talk about with guys is. okay if i'm wearing
my bunker gear i am going to and same thing with
wearing your seba when you put all these things
on it's basically restricting you're governing
yourself so if you have a carburetor you're you're
not allowing the carb to open all the way right
your your vo2 max is is reduced when you throw
that seba on when you throw all that gear on
your capacity to do work is reduced so as soon
as you start overheating as soon as your heart
rate gets super high you're not able to perform
at as high of a level so we have to build the
foundation of fitness prior to getting in gear
you have to be able to you know do your long
duration cardio you have to be able to do the
high intensity cardio you have to do all these
things and doing it out of gear gives you volume,
right? It gives you enough work and volume to
build this foundation. And then if it's somebody
that doesn't really have good heat adaptations
yet, like we're in Florida, it's hot, it's humid.
It's miserable most of the year, especially if
you're in gear on a fire scene in the middle
of summer. Holy shit. That is some of the most
brutal stuff you can do. So having guys just
exercising in general, that is a, it's the first
step of heat exposure. you're having heat shock
proteins you're elevating core body temperature
that would be level one of heat exposure for
guys right so like just exercise do something
and then okay maybe let's exercise outside do
it out in the bay go for a run outside in the
heat and humidity and then throw the gear on
so you have these levels right it's a it's like
a performance triangle in my mind you have the
foundation and then you have another step above
that and then you have the peak which would be
throwing your gear on and doing a full in gear
on air type workout um and that's where obviously
Our gear comes into play and would allow guys
to do so with no risk. And they're able to push
the performance, increase their ability to tolerate
uncompensable heat stress. And the uncompensable
heat stress is slightly different than normal
heat stress, because as we all know, when you're
wearing bunker gear, there eventually gets a
point where your body temperature, your core
body temperature, it's not. controllable anymore
it's kind of a runaway thermal heat train so
in the literature that's what they call uncompensable
heat stress and it's really hard to mimic that
i mean you could do it obviously because people
have heat strokes so it's not impossible to do
out you know training outside and stuff but it
is much more controllable when you throw the
gear on and then you're in that exact same sport
specific job specific um modality where you're
wearing the gear that's restrictive it's hot
it's heavy you're moving around you're doing
all the normal fire ground tasks so to me that's
really where the gear shines and performance
aspect is giving guys uncompensable heat stress
adaptations and doing so in a specific manner
that's going to really transfer to the fire service
it's not you know it's not just uh jumping into
a sauna and riding a stationary bike that was
one of the things i struggle with and if i think
back it got worse if i'm not mistaken as i got
older but i would say i never had a single task
in fire gear that it was the exertion that made
me want to tap out it was always the heat and
and and i don't know if you've seen any literature
as far as aging but i felt that my thermoregulation
got worse as i got older as well I'd have to
look at that. I know that I'm with you. The heat
is what kills me. It's what whips my ass. I know
that there's also if you're overweight, body
fat wise, body fat is not going to it's too much
insulation. So it's not going to allow guys to
be as thermally adapted. Guys that have high
levels of aerobic fitness, they seem to. adapt
to heat stress more readily and they also maintain
that heat stress longer. And then also things
like thyroid. So I'm personally on thyroid medication
and your thyroid can dictate a lot of that as
well. So you're not going to be able to tolerate
as much heat stress if you're hypothyroid and
things of that nature. So there's definitely
a lot of variables that can come into that. And
then as well as when the body temperature gets
up higher and higher, you're essentially making
everything more anaerobic. So you're shifting
stuff from an aerobic environment more into that
anaerobic environment. And that's unfortunately
what the heat does. So eventually, it doesn't
matter. If you're in the gear long enough, your
body temperature is going to go up, especially
if you're doing any amount of exercise. The body
is releasing heat. When the muscle contracts
and it's doing work, you're releasing that energy
in the form of heat. so you're building heat
up from your core body temperature itself you're
not allowing it to evaporate because of the the
high um the the lack of thermal heat loss in
the bunker gear so you have all these compounds
that are kind of making the the perfect formula
for heat exhaustion and and things of that nature
just making it super hard you know if you go
outside and dig a ditch with a t -shirt and a
pair of shorts it's not the same thing as digging
a ditch in full gear it's Not that digging the
ditch got any harder. It's just that you're reducing
your ability to perform. I used to do a lot of
workouts like Murph and Chad 1000 in full gear.
And then as I progressed a little bit, like Chad
was usually bunker pants. And I just did Chad
the other day, a few weeks ago, and I always
use a 60 pound vest. And it was amazing just
exactly what you're talking about. Not saying,
wow, I'm some amazing athlete, but it was just
an observation of the ability to offload heat.
I did Murph in just, you know, t -shirt and shorts
this time. And then the same with Chad. And it
is, it's literally night and day, but it shows
the value. And now I'm not working as a firefighter
anymore. So I don't need to be able to suffer
in that gear. It shows you the value of training
and gear because I couldn't agree more. There
are many, many workouts that you just simply
don't have to be wearing gear for. And I would
argue you get better mobility and better form
when you're not restricted and you got the pack
all the way in the back. I'm a big fan of weight
vests if you are going to do encumbered workouts.
But you have to spend time in the gear as well,
suffering, getting hot, because it is a mental
game as well. And this is what kills me about
the lack of standards. If the last time that
you were really in the pain cave was in the academy,
and now here we are 8, 15 years later, and your
life or someone else's life depends on you finding
a dark place that you haven't been in 15 years,
you are not going to get there. But if the last
time that you did a redline workout, you went
out in the Florida sun and 98 degrees, and you
pushed sleds and pulled sandbags and flipped
tires and hit sled strikes, and it was awful.
but you got through it. Now, the last time that
you were in that dark place was Tuesday. Yeah,
yeah, exactly. And you're familiar with it. You're
not having that same high anxiety response. um
that's gonna you know kind of put you in the
black right when your your your tunnel vision
comes on you're not thinking properly and that's
another thing with heat stress is the the mental
reduction and the cognitive performance reduction
so even just one percent of dehydration we see
a reduction in cognitive performance and two
percent dehydration if you lose two percent of
your body weight we're starting to see physical
uh decrements in performance um and that's something
i mean kind of talking about the jumping gears
with with sports performance when i power lifted
for a long time we would do major weight cuts
i was not good at it when i was wrestling but
competing in powerlifting we'd have 24 hour weigh
-ins i would drop 10 of my body weight in fluid
which is not healthy for you by any stretch of
the imagination but it allowed me to complete
a lower weight class be more competitive etc
And oh, my God, I could not have lifted a wet
rag if I went to compete at that body weight
without refilling and rehydrating. And that's
something that I try and, you know, be on top
of guys, especially in Florida with the environment
we have when guys are going out and training
or they're going out and working out in the bay,
doing things like that. getting back inside and
rehydrating as soon as possible making sure they're
getting electrolytes and a little bit of carbohydrates
guys please don't fear carbohydrates all of these
electrolyte packs you need to you want to have
10 -ish grams of carbs that actually helps facilitate
the sodium getting back into the cell quicker.
So I think you're going to have like a 20, 30
% improvement for sodium absorption and getting
the cell rehydrated. So that's something to keep
in mind when guys are doing low carb and no carb
electrolyte packs and things of that nature.
You mentioned weight cuts. I never understood
why you don't just simply compete on the day
that you weigh in. And just eliminate that. And
I don't know where that's come from. And I get,
you know, the whole loophole thing. I mean, that's
where the CrossFit pull -up came up for the butterfly
pull -up, for example. But, you know, in MMA
and everything, you see these renal problems
and rabdo. And I just don't get it. Right. You're
going to fight that evening. Right. Weigh in
at lunchtime. There we go. Yep. I think you'd
eliminate so many issues. I agree. I really don't
know where it came from, but it's at that point,
it's like one of the competitive things where
you're like, now it's there and you're either
going to use it or somebody is going to use it
against you. So doing it smart and making sure
you're not causing more harm than good. I know
that there were some wild, wild dudes back in
the powerlifting was such a wild sport. I loved
coming into it. It was like the wild west. And
back when, when I got in, in like 2010, there
was stories of, I think a Russian guy who would.
do the dehydration. And then on top of that,
he would also pull some of his blood to then
lose weight. And then he would have the blood
infused back into him after he'd weigh in. I'm
like, that is absolutely insane, but not healthy.
Don't take that advice, but just fun stories.
While I'm thinking of, of, you know, health issues
when it comes to working on the fire ground,
one area that you, I mean, you hear it discussed,
but I don't think you hear it discussed enough
is energy drinks. What has been your exposure
to that energy drinks and then people falling
out, rhabdo, et cetera? Dude, I'm also like a
sociopath, I think, because I don't drink caffeine.
I just operate on piss and vinegar, I think,
and a little bit of anger. So I basically got
through probation. I was like, I want to see
if I can do this without drinking coffee because
I saw just the addiction to coffee as a probie,
just having to pour coffee for everybody all
the time, you know, and make sure the pot's full.
I think that it... might play a variable. It
does play a variable when guys are overdosing
it, right? Just like anything, the doses and
the poison. If guys were sticking to normal amounts
of caffeine, which I think the recommendation
is like three to 400 milligrams a day, maybe
500 milligrams a day, I don't think we would
see much of an issue. But when guys are abusing
the caffeine on top of not sleeping well, you
are going to see negative repercussions from
guys abusing caffeine using you know three four
or five energy drinks a day just to sustain themselves
because they're combating sleep deprivation because
they're you know not getting quality sleep off
shift they're using that as a crutch and that's
always been my perspective on it is i didn't
want to use coffee as a crutch and I also think
it might have to do with some of the blood pressure
values and things of that nature where guys are
having higher heart rates, higher blood pressures
because they're constantly stimmed out of their
mind. So if guys would bring the range back down,
come back into a normal range of caffeine intake,
I think 300, 400 milligrams is fine. Don't quote
me on that. I think that's pretty close. But
Megan Lutz, she's an RD that works at Fairfax.
She's awesome. I've heard her lecture quite often,
and she does a very good job of going into some
of those specific dosing crimes. Yeah. I mean,
again, this is yet another conversation where
if we simply weren't chronically sleep deprived,
we wouldn't be leaning into coffee and energy
drinks as much. So yeah, just another area where,
yeah, if you can get the rest and recovery, people
are more likely just to be like, Oh no, I'm good.
Herbal tea or a glass of water or whatever. But
I was that guy too. I drank a lot of coffee on
shift, so I can totally relate. Yeah. guys and
guys and their coffee that's something you don't
mess with for sure well so we talked about kind
of the exercise side what can you do as far as
the training side the actual operational training
and then what are the the the restrictions the
limits what you wouldn't be able to do in this
gear oh for carna um so it's made and created
to serve as a non -idlh atmosphere training so
it is not rated for live fire it's not rated
for uh into an atmosphere that can potentially
burn. So part of the idea with that is using
the gear in drill yard type scenarios. So academies,
going out throwing ladders, pulling hoses, all
of the normal daily training that you're doing,
which does not require going into a high thermal
temperature atmosphere. And that's kind of where
we... thought it would shine and will shine is
in a couple different ways, right? You're, you're
allowing guys to still get the training in, which
is allowing them to be better firefighters. You're
reducing their exposure rates by not having gear,
not wearing gear that's exposed at some level
or another, some more than others. And then this
was actually side topic. Some of the research,
it was a study that came out earlier this year.
They had seen, they looked at three different
kinds of uh bunker gear one was 2011 2014 and
2019 i want to say all of them were treated with
pfos from the factory one of them was never worn
one of them was in service for about eight years
the one that was in service for eight years actually
had higher levels of pfos and they were volatile
pfos that were from the the authors noted that
it was most likely from the environmental exposures
so you're seeing gear that Not only is it treated
with PFAS, and obviously we're moving away from
that in frontline gear or some capacity, and
you're seeing that it's still going to be on
the gear once you go into the fire. So I want
guys to understand that as well, that it's not
just contaminated from the factories because
of... PFAS's ability to repel oil and being very
good at that and also being very breathable.
So you're going to lose breathability when you
have non -PFAS gear. But you're going to get
those exposures when you start going into fires
as well, as far as house fires, structure fires,
things of that nature. So we're trying to reduce
some of those unnecessary absorptions thermally.
And then third, you're going to be seeing...
We've already seen some of this non -PFOS gear.
I've talked to independent service providers
that do repairs on bunker gear, that do turnout
rental companies, things of that nature. They're
already seeing some of this non -PFOS gear not
perform as long. Their durability is compromised,
especially if the gear is hung and is exposed
to UV light. PFOS was a major protector for the
bunker gear compared to UV radiation. Kevlar
is very, very susceptible to UV damage. That
is something that we think would fill a hole
as well is using the bunker gear to try and elongate
the life in the performance life of the frontline
gear. Frontline gear is very expensive. It's
expensive because it's a complicated product
and textile that's made that protects us in crazy
environments. So you're not going to be able
to just reduce the cost on that, especially transferring
a non PFAS gear seems to be more expensive. So
if we can figure out a way to. make the life
of that gear extend a little bit more. Potentially
using the Karna gear is going to help pay for
itself while also reducing guys' exposure rates.
So that's not my priority is extending the front
line life of gear. It is obviously something
that is a great dollar sign. We like to talk
to administration and chiefs and budgets about
that because it is something that could potentially
help pay for itself. Obviously, my first priority
is protecting the guys, but it is a great tool
and it also can help. extend the performance
of the gear once it's in a fire because the less
they're wearing their gear their frontline gear
the less they're washing it the less they're
beating on it the better that that set of frontline
gear is going to perform in a fire because it's
closer to factory specs so we want to basically
allow guys to to have alternatives training gear
to use in that nature um we aren't allowing it
to be used in ideal h atmospheres and we make
it blue primarily just so the guys are kind of
color coordinated and they know that if they
see that that odd color that it's not rated for
for frontline gear um and then ideally it's also
not made for vehicle extrication stuff because
there is no um oil repellency on it there's no
protective layer for if fluids were to penetrate
whether that be you know battery acids or some
kind of hydraulic fluid of that nature so just
Making sure the guys are aware that safety still
comes first with this. And it's a tool that has
limitations, just like frontline bunker gear.
But I think that it has a spot and a role in
the fire service. I mean, it makes so much sense
to me from an exposure point of view. But if
I'm thinking in my mind of a scenario, say you
were lucky enough to have the fire sled stuff
at your station too. You're out in the back apron.
You're moving that sled around. You're wearing
your blue gear. You've got a weight vest on.
And a call comes in where you can just doff everything
and then run over to your engine. And now everything's
exactly where you left it. The hose is on the
bed. Your gear is ready to be deployed if needed.
Or if you're running an EMS, you're not having
to put everything back. So, you know, it's a
that exposure and that separation, but even from
a, you know, an ability to respond quickly. I
mean, I've had it where, you know, we're wearing
all our gear and we've got ladders out and, you
know, you're scrambling trying to get everything
back before you can even leave the base. So there
is that as well. Yes. That's one of the funny
highlights that some of my friends that have
the gear also tell me all the time is they're
like, dude, I would buy this just so I don't
have to put my sweaty ass gear on to run a call.
Exactly. Like if we're training. So I think that's
one of the funnier feedbacks I've gotten is that
one right there. Like it's worth it just for
that. So who is using it at the moment? We've
sold, it's actually really cool. We sold to a
lot of individual firefighters, which I didn't
expect. I wasn't, you know, cause it's not cheap.
The original set or an individual set at under
50 units is $1 ,500, which. You know, everybody
spends money on different things. And we see
some guys with, you know, very expensive vehicles
or, you know, full sleeves and tattoos that are
very expensive. So you can have money that you
would, you know, spend somewhere else that you
could definitely spend on something that helps
your job and health. not telling people how to
you know budget for themselves but at that point
like i get it it's not a cheap expense it's not
a 50 you know thing that you're purchasing but
it is something that can ideally last a long
time and guys can take it with them for an extended
period of time and train in it and be very useful
for them so um you know we're we're hopefully
we've been selling to a lot of individuals um
we've sold to some some fire departments across
the country i think we just finished manufacturing
130 the other week and then we've just got those
distributed to three or four or five different
departments and we're gonna do another 50 60
here uh shortly as soon as we can turn around
and get some more materials so we're we're getting
out there and uh we we did one small uh school
academy and then we've had an academy in st augustine
run the demo gear a gear for a demo for a full
fire academy class it is definitely harder for
the the fire academy i mean fire academies are
hard on everything right because they're in the
gear constantly uh they're beating it up they're
doing all kinds of stuff that normal fire department
training isn't going to do so i am looking at
different options to try and improve things so
we've we've done things like apply some durable
water repellents that are non -PFOS that can
hopefully help the gear stay not as wet because
it is cotton. It's a duck cotton on the exterior,
so it will retain moisture longer. So having
to use fans or drying racks or having things
of that nature usually help it dry quicker. So
the gear won't dry as fast as some of our frontline
gear. So that is something that folks have to
get used to. So when you're in the academy, your
gear is soaked all day. the time anyways but
that was some some feedback that we had um and
then trying to just you know make small adjustments
here and there and tweaks so improvements in
knee pads maybe putting some kevlar on the pockets
and it's all really a cost of benefit ratio because
frontline gear is very expensive for a reason
right like it performs very highly it's almost
bulletproof for a certain amount of years um
and you get a really great performing product
but we can't start making something that's so
amazing that it's frontline bunker gear and you're
trying to fit into a market where it makes sense
cost and affordability wise for departments to
be able to purchase still so if i start making
something that is you know 100 made of kevlar
we're just not going to be able to sustain that
lower price model for guys and departments to
be able to afford um and at this point our Starting
bulk price is 50 units at $1 ,000, which I think
is extremely reasonable, especially in apartments
when they see that in their budgets. They're
usually very excited at that benchmark compared
to what they would be paying to purchase 50 sets
of normal gear. So if that can allow them to
offset the cost of rebuying frontline gear by
a few years, then I think it's worthwhile. I
agree 100%. Well, I want to throw some closing
questions at you before I let you go. The first
one I love to ask, is there a book or other books
that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Yeah, so this is going to hit real home for you.
Jocko Willink's book, obviously. Extreme Ownership
is definitely one of my favorite books. I recommend
everybody read that. I think it's such a groundbreaking
book that he's done such a great job. And he
just sees things very... very well. He writes
very well. All of their stories are applicable.
Awesome book. And then one of the classics that
I know Jocko probably gleaned information from
as well was How to Win Friends and Influence
People. That's an excellent, longstanding book.
And then anything really written by Jordan Peterson,
I love him as well. So any of those are, I think,
very worthwhile books that can educate guys in
a variety of different ways. really how to be
a good person a good leader which i think is
super valuable for the fire service Absolutely.
Yeah, I just spent yesterday with some of the
Echelon front team. I didn't see Jocko, but I
saw Jason Gardner and a few of the other guys.
And yeah, they had a thousand people in the conference.
Yes. I guess I didn't realize that was this weekend.
I would have probably tried to get over there,
but that is, they put on a great event. I've
been to a few musters. I actually did a little
bit of side gigs for them back in the day when
we would do the, basically. training for the
companies they would hire them out as contractors
they would come in and do the lecture series
and then i would come with some other guys oftentimes
like retired seals or ex -military dudes and
we would play laser tags laser tag with the companies.
And that would be something where there's five
or six of us against, you know, 40 of them. And
by the first time we just destroy them. And then
they start implementing some of the teamwork
stuff. And by the end of the day, the end of
the week, they're starting to work together and
beat us out there on the battleground. But that
was a lot of fun. I did that a few years ago.
Yeah, no, it was amazing. When I watched it the
first time, which is 2021, I was just joking
with Jason. They come out to this rock music
and I just kept seeing Bill and Ted's Excellent
Adventure. You know, hello, San Dimas. I saw
it again. I was chuckling to myself. But yeah,
Rob Jones is appointed now, who's a guy I've
had on the show, double amputee marine, marine
engineer. Amazing, amazing talk. So all the people
that they have, you know, every single one has
got a different lens. So it's definitely worth
it. Yeah, yeah, they're an awesome group. So
yeah, again, anything that those dudes put out
at Echelon Front or Jocko, yeah, definitely check
out. And I know that's not news to most people,
but full support. Absolutely. What about documentaries,
films, television? You know, just because obviously
with some of the conversations we've been having
and the PFAS exposures, things of that nature,
the Dark Waters book, or sorry, Dark Waters movie,
I know that you've spoken to the man himself.
And that is such a good movie. And it explains
some of the background and the back end of the
creation of PFAS and DuPont and all the kind
of disgusting business practices and ethical
things that occurred at that time throughout
the creation of Teflon and all the above. So
that's a really good movie to watch that's on
topic, on brand. Other documentaries and movies
and stuff. I don't know. I love shows. I love
documentaries. I love movies. God, I wish I had
anything else off the top of my head. We started
watching The Beast and Me. That's on Netflix
right now. That's a cool one. Claire Danes is
a really good actress, so I'm interested in that.
That's definitely got some psychological aspects
to it that are interesting. So that's been a
good new watch for me. Brilliant. Well, the next
question, is there a person that you recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military, and associated
professions of the world? I'm sure I could come
up with a few. I don't know if you have interviewed
him, but I am a big fan of Dr. Orman from NC
State. I've read a ton of his research. He's
got some really cool stuff that he's done. And
he is a fabric textile expert. And he's done
some preliminary research on PFAS through dermal
absorption. And then... Dr. Heather Stapleton
is awesome out of Duke University. She's done
a bunch of studies as well on dermal absorption
and flame retardants. And what is her name? She
is a professor from Appalachian State. And she's
done a lot of dermal absorption studies as well.
And she's done a unique, basically skin dialysis
almost, so that you can see the absorption of
chemical exposures. Almost in real time. So they've
been doing that on different fire ground scenes
and they tested it in other subjects prior to
that, prior to going out in the field and having
firefighters do it. So they would go into buildings,
do a live burn, and they would come out and they
would get the samples and see how much absorption
of chemicals were caught. She was actually seeing
very high levels of absorption, much higher than
what she expected. So that was a surprise to
her. So yeah, any three of those I think would
be excellent speakers for you to interview. I
think that's what really blows me away when you
listen to the scientists because we have this
presumption that, well, if you're wearing your
gear, all the bad stuff can't get to me. But
they do these tests and you realize how much
made it, not even as you said about where the
seal points are, the neck and the ankles and
the wrists, but even through the chest and the
groin and everywhere else that it went right
through the fabric and still absorbed to us.
Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I think guys
don't realize is that there's particles that
are penetrating through the fibers of the bunker
gear and through their bodies and they're in
their bloodstream prior to exiting the structure
fire. Not all of them. But there are some that
are very lightweight particles that are doing
that. So for guys to understand that, that's
also where some of the deeper washing things
come in, where you're cleaning the deep fibers
of the gear. And even one of the cooler small
studies I saw was walking out of a fire and prior
to going to gross decon, just opening up your
jacket, opening up your pants, allowing those
vapors to off gas for a few minutes. And then
while you're going over to gross decon, then
you zip back up and get scrubbed down. There's
these cool little things that I think are neat
and they can, these scientists and professors
that are doing the studies can, you know, give
us very informative feedback for how to actually
apply some of this stuff in the real world and
not, you know, butcher their studies on 2448s
and 4896s. Last question before we make sure
everyone knows where to find you and Karna. What
do you do to decompress? Ooh, I don't know if
I do decompress enough. Mental health, baby.
No, I love lifting weights. I love going to the
gym and training. That is such an outlet for
me. So that's probably my primary thing. And
even doing cardio at the station, I know that
when I get done training and lifting, you have
the endorphins, you have all the different chemical
reactions going on. I feel better. And sometimes
just when you push yourself so hard, and not
every session is like this, right? But when you
push yourself so hard and then you go and sit
in your car, you go and walk home and everything
is just like static, quiet, and you don't have
anything going on in your head. You're not thinking
about other crazy thoughts. There's nothing in
the to -do list just because you're so exhausted
from putting that work in and you feel good and
you're walking out. That's probably my favorite
feeling. So I'll go with exercise as my outlet.
My healthy addiction. There we go. Well, for
people listening now, let's start with Karna.
Where can they find Karna, learn more, or even
purchase? Yeah, so we have a website, karnabunkergear
.com. C -A -R -N -A is Karna. It is actually
the Roman goddess of health and vitality, specifically
the inner organs. So that's where we got that
name. And it's very fitting, in my opinion. We
also have a social media account. We're on Instagram,
probably most active, I would say. I try and
post. educational things um and try and you know
give guys information and things that are that
are helpful so we try and give back to the community
and try and give guys things that are that are
going to help improve their health and safety
whether that's fitness or cancer risk reduction
stuff and we have some articles that i've written
that are on the website as well and our email
is carnabunkergear gmail .com feel free to reach
out to us on any of those outlets we have like
a contact information on the website where you
can kind of fill in a request box for us to reach
out to you so that's available there you can
email us or you can message us on instagram or
facebook beautiful any other areas for you specifically
online or social media Yeah, I have a LinkedIn
that I've been trying to use and I have my personal
Instagram as well. And then anybody that emails
us, if I respond back, I usually send my personal
cell as well. So if you have any questions, concerns,
whatever, shoot me a text, call me. I'm more
than happy to talk to anybody about things, especially,
you know, anything to anything to do with cancer
risk reduction in the fire service. If I can
answer the question, I will do so. If I don't
have an answer to the question, I will try and
find the answer or I will find a resource for
you to. send you. Brilliant. Well, I want to
thank you so much. It's been such an interesting
conversation, not only obviously with the cancer
element, but the strength and conditioning side
too, with you having a background as an athlete
and the academic side as well. So I want to thank
you so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
James, thank you for having me, brother. And
I think you're one of the best podcasters in
the building, not just for the awesome podcast
that you do, but for the British accent. I think
you are top notch with that. And that's what
sets this over the edge.