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Behind the Shield podcast, and you will hear
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from Thorne. Welcome to the Behind the Shield
podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing
and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome
on the show active duty firefighter and former
MMA champion Eddie Wineland. So we discuss a
host of topics from his journey into martial
arts, almost losing his brother in a house fire,
the fighter's mindset, firefighter fitness, mental
health. sleep and so much more now before we
get to this incredible conversation as i say
every week please just take a moment go to whichever
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leave feedback i do love reading your feedback
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in return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you, Eddie Wineland. Enjoy. Well, Eddie, I
want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time to come on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Absolutely. It's a pleasure. Pleasure.
Absolutely. So where on planet Earth are we finding
you today? I am actually in my house, in my Four
Seasons room. As you can see, it's kind of rustic.
We got our fish mounts. There's more to become.
But as the boys decide to reel in some big fish,
we're getting them mounted. But it's kind of
a rustic room. just in the back room of our house.
Brilliant. Well, I would love to start at the
very beginning because I know you weren't born
in Indiana. So tell me where you were born and
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did and how many siblings.
Okay, yeah. So the way my parents met and where
I was born is kind of a funny story, I guess.
I was born in Harris County, Texas, Houston.
My parents, they actually met on the way down
to Houston. So my dad was down to Houston or
on his way down to Houston with a buddy of his
and my mom with a girlfriend of hers. And my
dad and my mom didn't know each other at that
point, obviously, but they actually passed each
other on the highway. And my dad, who knew the
girl that was with my mom, saw them and started
pointing out to my buddy, you need to pass them,
need to pass them. So they go blowing by this
car that has my mom and a mutual friend in the
car. And as they pass this car, my dad's got
his ass hanging out the window. So she was struck
by his brown eye? Struck by the brown eye, yeah.
So that would be probably the first time my mom
ever saw my dad was with his ass hanging out
the car window going down an interstate headed
to Houston. So I believe they pulled over at
some point. Hey, what are you doing? We're going
to Houston. Well, what do you know? Us too. So
I think the rest is all kind of history. Beautiful.
That's an interesting love at first sight story.
It was the wrong end. Right. Or the right end.
I don't know. Who knows? Depends on what you're
into, I guess. So what about profession at that
time or as they started progressing through their
adult life? What were they doing career wise?
My dad, he was going down there for work. I think
he was doing trailer repair at the time or construction.
He kind of bounced around a little bit. My mom,
I'm not 100 % certain what she was doing. I think
they were just going down to Houston to have
a good time. Back in the late 70s. You know,
as they like to do, they like to party, they
like to drink, they like to just have a good
time. So I think they were just down there having
a good time and looking for work. Now, Wineland,
the name, what is the kind of European descent,
if anything? Wineland, I believe, is German.
So I got German and Irish. My mom's on my mom's
side was Galbraith. So my mom is actually Weinkauf
and Galbraith. Um, on my father's side is Wineland
at Brooks. So there's some, there's some German,
there's some Irish. Um, I actually had one of
those 23 and me's and, but because I've been
struck in the head so many times, I can't exactly
remember what it was, but I know I had, uh, like
basically Cro -Magnon. They said it was like
2 % of the population has a Cro -Magnon caveman
gene. And I just so happened to have it. So you're
related to Clay Guido as well then. Exactly.
There you go. There's a reason we do what we
do and why we're so dumb. It's just, oh, smash.
Yeah. So, yeah, there was like Eastern European.
There was all kinds of different stuff in there.
I don't know how accurate that stuff is, but
I know Weinland, Weinkauf, there's German there,
there's Irish with Galbraith and all the other
stuff. Now, what about in your extended family?
Are there firefighters or are there also first
responders or firefighters in any of your lineage?
It's somewhere, but it's been known that none
of us were going to back down from a fight. All
right. Well, speaking of combat arts, then walk
me through your journey into wrestling and or
any other martial arts at the school age. Yeah.
So I started wrestling at six and it kind of
started because. Well, just like any other parent
does, we're going to bounce our kid around, you
know, OK, let's play basketball. OK, let's play
soccer. OK, let's try. Let's try t -ball. OK,
let's try this. Let's try that. I didn't like
the balls, the ball and stick sports. You know,
I not that I wasn't good at them, but. it just
it didn't appeal to me so i didn't apply myself
i didn't really like it that much um so they
put me into wrestling and i i specifically remember
watching like wwf and all that stuff back then
so i i specifically remember asking my mom on
the way to my first practice If she thought that,
oh, well, do you think there's going to be tag
teams? I thought it was going to be like like
some WWF stuff. I mean, I'm going to DDT this
guy and blah, blah, blah. And I quickly realized
that that wasn't the case. You know, I got my
ass handed to me the first couple of times. But
once I realized what was going on, that that
was my click. You know, that was my click. Let's
get in there. Let's roughhouse. Let's get rowdy.
And I always I like to test myself against somebody
else. You know, so. All the other ball sports,
they required one, and this one to me required
two. You're going in there one -on -one, and
it's a combat. We're not kicking a ball to each
other. We're going to see who the tougher guy
is here. So I kind of gravitated towards that.
I wasn't very consistent in wrestling from six
all the way on. You know, I kind of bounced around
here and there. I don't know if it was if it
was, you know, my parents working or maybe I
just wasn't as interested. I don't know. But
I kind of off and on from from six and then about
middle school, I picked it up again. So sixth
grade all the way through high school, I wrestled.
So that was kind of the extent of it. That was
always just kind of my thing. I didn't like the.
the ball sports well it's an interesting contrast
i played both i did martial arts most of my my
life never to the level that you did um but i
had that constant humbling i've talked about
this before where i won national titles in taekwondo
and then entered a kit boxing gym and got murdered
and then kind of got okay at that and then went
to jiu -jitsu and got murdered again i'm like
fuck um yeah so i was definitely a weekend warrior
and a punch bag for some very good fighters ian
mccall and some of the other people that you
probably were around in your your area yeah ian's
a great dude yeah no he's uh you know monster
in the gym um yes but Then you have the team
sports as well. And it's an interesting kind
of mix because when you fight for a team in martial
arts, yes, you are part of a team. Yes, your
win matters. But as you said, you are 100 % accountable
for your performance on the mat versus, you know,
you might be a very, very good player in a team
of 11 on the football pitch. But, you know, the
dynamic of the rest of the team, or maybe you're
the weakling, you know, you can let down an entire
team that way. So I found those two contrasts
very interesting. That's my take on it, and that's
why I love it. The only one responsible for your
victory is you. The only one responsible for
your loss is you. If you lose, there is no pointing
fingers. The finger that's being pointed is directly
at you because it's on you. Now, are you helping
your team to win that match? Yes, because there's
team points involved, at least in wrestling.
So wrestling, there are team points involved.
Your win matters. If you lose, it's on you. You
know, nobody else out there can can we can't
pull strings and we're not playing puppet master
out there. You know, there's not there's not
any any other bodies out there to help you. It's
one on one there. And I mean, that to me is that's
the ultimate test. And that's the ultimate. I
just like I said, I've gravitated towards that.
I've always wanted to test myself and I want
to see who the better person is. Well, I think
the other side of the combat sports is when you
lose in football, for example. I'm talking about,
you know, real football. I was going to say,
yeah, football or soccer. Hold on here. Football
with your feet. Football. Right. Okay, real football.
I understand. I understand. Your ego might get
wounded, but that's about it. But when you lose
in jiu -jitsu, when you lose in Muay Thai, it
fucking hurts. So I think there's another level
of fear in those kind of sports that a lot of
other sports, as amazing as athletes are, never
understand that the potential of being knocked
out or choked unconscious is a lot more real
than, as you said, if your ultimate goal is to
put a football in the net. It's it's it's completely
a different breed of people, you know, because
you are willingly going to lock yourself in a
cage with you and two other people. One of those
persons being a referee. So he's going to do
nothing. The other guy, he's trying to take your
freaking head off, you know, so so to willingly
get in there and understand, OK, I may split
my forehead open. I may break an arm. I may get
knocked unconscious. I could break my nose. I
could break my hand. I could bust my jaw. You
know, the consequences there are real. versus
getting kicked in the face with a soccer ball.
Okay, it's going to sting, but for how long?
A broken jaw is months of pain. You get kicked
in the face with a soccer ball. Depending on
what level of pussy you are, you could either
shake it off or you might fall down and cry about
it. It all depends. Yeah, it's an interesting
contrast at the moment because I love the UFC,
but then I'm watching the World Cup too. And,
you know, some of the... And it's drama. It's
just to try and, you know, sell the penalty.
But it is quite funny that, you know, a mere...
the flop touch yeah touching the face they're
all they are all guilty of it basketball baseball
well baseball so much you get hit with a 90 mile
an hour fastball i'm sure that it hurts uh but
you know they're all guilty of it soccer being
the biggest one i think yeah i think they're
clamping down there which is good to see there's
a lot less of that now it was really bad about
eight years ago they wouldn't even get touched
yeah there was a one i forget his name but there's
a video creator and it was one guy that got tackle
than he i mean this dude rolled i mean literally
six or seven times it was hilarious but then
this guy kind of exactly and then he kind of
superimposed him going through space and going
through the ocean and it was hilarious anyway
well back to your wrestling um we'll get into
obviously the mma evolution but when you were
wrestling you obviously got to a certain level
what was it that was allowing you to be somewhat
successful when some of the other kids that you
were training alongside maybe weren't So, if
we're being 100 % honest, my wrestling career
was not successful. Was not. And again, I'm the
only one to blame because I didn't apply myself.
Like any other high school kid, it was just kind
of, I'm here, but I want to be there, but I want
to do this. I didn't really apply myself as hard
as I could. I still say to this day, if I could
go back to high school with the mentality that
I have now, It'd be a whole different animal,
you know, because the mentality that I have now,
obviously, as a 38 year old man is different
than a 16 year old kid. I was a 16 year old kid.
You got different things on your mind. You want
you want to hang out with your buddies, you know,
all kinds of different stuff, different things
going on rather than I want to get in there and
beat people up. You know, I like to test myself,
but but I didn't. apply myself as much as i should
have um truth be told i never made it out of
i don't know how familiar you are with with high
school wrestling but they go you have your conference
then you go sectionals you know so after conference
everybody makes it the sectionals but after the
sectionals you have to qualify for regionals
you have to qualify for semi -state you have
to qualify for state so you have to be within
the top the top like four i think in your bracket
to make it out of each tournament i never made
it out of sectionals Even as a senior, I never
made sectionals. Again, didn't apply myself.
You know, I still to this day, I go back into
the room and I wrestle with the kids just because
it's fun for me. It's fun for me. It's fun for
them. You know, obviously my hometown Chesterton,
everybody, oh, Eddie Wineland's in the room.
You know, I don't see it like that, but they
see it like that. So not only is it good for
me, it's good for them that testing themselves
against a professional athlete. You know, to
show them that the mentality that I didn't have,
don't worry about who's standing in front of
you. It doesn't matter who's standing in front
of you. Just blow right through them. You know,
whip their ass no matter who it is. That was
my biggest thing was my mentality. Being a freshman,
they didn't have anybody to fill the smallest
spot. So being a freshman, I came in and started
wrestling varsity. My eighth grade year, I think
I was like 17 -2 or 17 -0 with 14 pins. So, of
course, I'm going into my freshman year thinking,
all right, I'm going to smash these guys. I'm
pretty sure my freshman year I got pinned more
times than I won my eighth grade year because
I'm going in, you know, wrestling seniors. And,
oh, this kid's got a tattoo. You know, I got
in my own head. So the best thing that I can
do for these kids and my boys is to try and set
their mentality straight. You know, don't worry
about the person standing in front of you. Believe
in yourself. Believe in what you've done. And
just go out there and destroy this dude. You
know, if you go out there and you give it 100
% and try absolutely as hard as you can and still
come up short, what else are you going to do?
There's absolutely nothing you can do other than
go back in the room and continue to work. So
that's the biggest thing that I can do is try
to give them that side. Well, it's an interesting
perspective. I wrote a book a couple of years
ago. One of the chapters I told the story of
when I first started testing after the fire academy
and these two bright orange bodybuilders were
strutting around like, you know, cockerels in
a farmyard. Yeah. And I was like, well, shit,
they must be amazing. And this is my naive, you
know, brand new fire recruit eyeballs. And then
I watched them proceed to begin this physical
test that we were all getting ready to do, which
is basically like the combat challenge, pretty
much. And both of them tapped out on the third
story, carrying the empty hose line. And I was
like, well, shit. And it kind of brought me back
to when I used to fight. Sometimes I had already
told myself how good that person must be across
from me. Because like you said, they've got a
granite jaw or tattoos or whatever it is. And
that mind game is terrible because you can absolutely
lose the fight or maybe be too meek to step up
for a job position because you've told yourself
that lie. So what has been the evolution of that
from that freshman wrestler to fighting some
of the best MMA fighters on the planet? How did
you start dealing with that mental kind of imposter
syndrome that so many of us suffer from? Right.
I quickly realized. Size doesn't matter. I started
training, and when I first started training,
it was with Keith and Justin Wisniewski at Duneland
Ballet Tudor. They used to call them the Polish
Connection. They were two brothers, and you'd
look at them, and you wouldn't think nothing
of them, but boy, don't mess with them because
they're going to flip your shit, I promise. When
I first started training with him, Keith looked
at me and he said, if you really get serious
about this and you really want to fight, I feel
like we can make you one of the best in the world.
Yeah, come on. 18 -year -old kid from Chesterton.
My wrestling sucks. I like the backyard box and
that was about it. You tell me I'm going to be
one of the best fighters in the world. I don't
think so. I quickly realized that through just
the constant training and the consistency. Again,
that's what I'm trying to tell these kids now
is that it's consistency. Hard work beats talent
when talent doesn't work, right? That's the biggest
thing, hard work and consistency being in there.
So it got a little bit better. Learned how to
move my body. I kind of learned, as you learn,
you understand that the size really doesn't matter.
Okay, he's got big muscles, big deal. You see
all the memes now with this big, muscly bodybuilder
getting choked out, and it says the moment you
realize your max bench press doesn't mean shit.
You know, that's 100%. My strength and conditioning
coach, Jason, he's at Applied Strength and Conditioning.
He's a 260 -pound dude. And, you know, he...
I wrestle around with him, and I get on top of
him, and he can't move me. Here's a guy who can
pick up 600 pounds off the ground, but he can't
move a 150 -pound guy because I understand body
mechanics and how it works. That's just what
he said. It's a very humbling experience to wrestle
with a guy that's half your size and realize
there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
There is nothing you're going to do about it
because... That small dude there, he understands
what he's doing. He's going to fuck you up. There
was another dude in the gym that he kept saying,
I can take you. I can beat you. He's another
big dude, 260 pounds. He got to a double underhook
on me, and I started pushing on his face. I dug
my double unders. I say tried. He picked me up
off the ground. I just got wide. He couldn't
put me down. 30 seconds goes by, and he lets
go. He goes, oh. Oh, OK. Whoa, wait a minute,
motherfucker. It's my turn now. You couldn't
put me down in the first 30 seconds. So I just
knee tapped and put him straight to his butt.
And he stood up. He goes, all right, well, I
believe you now. What do you mean you believe
me? You'd whip my ass. No shit. You know, that's
what I've been trying to tell you, Ross. I would
whip your ass. You know, whether you like it
or not, I'm going to kick your ass. You know,
so so it's it's it's a humbling experience for
the big dude, but it's also the little guys.
It's. I look at these people as a challenge.
Can I can I do this? I don't know. I don't know
if I can. I think I can, but I'm going to try.
You know, I'm either I'm either going to get
beat or I'm going to beat them. You know, and
that's that's the way that's the way I've looked
at it is is one of two things is going to happen.
And it sounds kind of funny. But when you tell
somebody one of two things is going to happen,
I'm going to win or I'm going to lose. I mean,
that's the truth. You know, that's the truth.
I'm confident that I'm going to win. But the
reality that I could lose is there. It's a combat
sport. It's one, one shot, one shot in your throttle
on the floor. You know, so just just getting
past that, that mental hump of seeing the big
muscles and all. OK, well, this guy's done this.
This guy's done that. Um, you know, right, right
early on in my fighting career, when, when I
fought Antonio Banuelos, you know, I watched
a lot of his highlights and it was like, man,
this guy's really good. I don't know if I can
do this, but I'm going to try it. You know, just
go and do it. Just try. You don't know if you
don't try. Right. When I fought Camposano, I
fought Will Camposano. And I remember watching
him fight Ox Wheeler, the previous, his previous
fight. And that dude just nonstop from start
to finish 15 minutes. The output was insane.
I says, man, I don't know how I'm going to beat
this guy. This guy's in amazing shape and I don't
know what I'm going to do, but just go do it.
Just go do it because you don't know. So after
the first five minutes, I remember speaking with
him afterwards. Great dude, by the way, Will.
He's a super nice guy. But after talking to him,
he said, I almost didn't come off the stool after
the first round. because that constant forward
pressure, constant forward pressure, constant
forward pressure, it's a lot different fighting
under pressure, being the one pressured versus
the one giving the pressure. You know, when you're
giving pressure and the guy's like, shit, I don't
know what to do. I just hit him with the kitchen
sink and he's still coming forward. That drains
your gas tank. That drains your gas tank and
that drains your mentality. And that's, you know,
the thing I wanted to tell you was, oh, well,
fighting's physical. Absolutely, it's physical.
You know, it's it's it's a physical sport. Firefighting
is a physical thing. All sports are physical.
But the fight is won mentally, you know, 90 percent,
90 percent. The fight is mental, 10 percent physical,
at least in my opinion. If I can beat you mentally,
I know I can beat you physically because you've
already beat yourself. You know, how hard is
it to beat somebody who's already beaten himself?
It's pretty it's pretty easy. But like I said,
just realizing that the size doesn't matter.
Just go try it. You're not going to know if you
don't try. So that was the biggest thing for
me was I'm pretty confident in myself. I don't
know 100 % that I'm going to make it, but I'm
going to try. Because if I don't try, I'm for
sure not going to know. If I do try, well, at
least I can say, hey, I gave it everything. I
gave it everything. It didn't work. So at that
point, it's either get back into the gym and
keep working or move on to the next thing. So
I want to get into kind of the progression of
MMA and then obviously the fire service as well.
But before we do, there was a very pivotal moment
that happened to your brother. Obviously, it's
very pertinent scenes with both firefighters
as well. I think the burn injured, you know.
boys and girls, men and women of the world, probably
is some of the most horrendous injuries that
a human can endure. I would not wish that on
anybody. Would not wish that on, not on my worst
enemy. So if you wouldn't mind, kind of walk
me through that day, because I know there's an
element of guilt initially from yourself as well.
And then we'll kind of go through from there.
Sure. Yeah. So, so back, what was that? When
he got hurt. it was uh i wanted to go fishing
so a buddy and me we were walking we were walking
down the street with our fishing poles our tackle
box and you know my dad was coming home from
work in his pickup truck and he saw us walking
down the street stopped obviously hey what are
you guys doing well we're going fishing right
down the road i'll jump in the back of the truck
i'll take you okay so we jumped in the back of
the truck and he took us to the lake and off
fishing we went And as he left the lake to go
back home, he said he was following fire trucks.
There was fire trucks. They were pulling out
because the lake was actually right around the
corner from the, from the fire department. So
as he pulled out of the lake, fire trucks were
pulling out and he's following them and he keeps
following them. Okay. They're turning left. Oh,
okay. I got to go left. Oh, they're turning right.
Oh, I got to go right. Okay. They're heading
down there. He said, no, wait a minute. They
stopped, you know, they stopped at our house.
And my brother, was supposed to be at the house
behind our house well he must have got bored
and decided he didn't want to be there no more
and he ended up coming home and uh well when
he came home he was he's a motor head he was
into into anything with a motor and um he must
have tried to fill this bubble lawnmower with
some gasoline and then when the flame from the
hot water heater ignited the hot water heater
that gasoline that was on the floor just you
know and he was down in the basement at the time
And the guilt side of it was every time my dad
would come home from work, my dad would come
home from work, he would come running. Dad, dad,
you know, like any little kid, you know, oh,
dad's home. Well, my thought was if we wouldn't
have been, well, I say wouldn't have been going
fishing, but if we wouldn't have had him give
us a ride, he would have been home in time. Corey
would have been upstairs. Even if the house caught
on fire, everybody would have been out. So, I
mean, he was 98 % of his body second and third
degree burns. My mom said the only reason she
heard faint little screams, and she heard the
screams, she came down the stairs and saw just
a wall of fire. You know, she said she saw a
wall of fire, and she started calling out to
him, and she said all she could see through the
flames was just this little black silhouette
walking towards her. You know, so, I mean, it
gives me goosebumps thinking about what it would
be to see that, you know, to see your own child
walking through a wall of flames. That, yeah,
that's just, that's a tough one. I don't know.
It happened for a reason. What the reason is,
I don't know. Couldn't tell you. I don't know.
I don't know. I'm kind of at a loss of words
on that one. And he was two and a half when this
happened. He was two and a half. Yeah. So if
you wouldn't mind, I mean, that is such a catastrophic
injury. I've had, you know, I had a dude walk
out of a house fire on fire, bizarre, bizarre
story because anatomically he should have been.
toast absolutely and then he was talking to us
and we're like this doesn't make any sense his
airways all burnt out he's got no tongue he's
got no nose and so i'm not a deeply organized
religious person but i am spiritual the only
way to describe that particular patient was his
soul didn't know his body was dead the only way
and from from a medical point of view so to think
of 98 percent burns on a two and a half year
old Again, give me some of the cliff notes on
your brother's recovery, because, I mean, that
must have just been devastating for you, for
his parents, for everyone. Yeah, it was. He was,
if I'm not mistaken. They took the ambulance
and they the ambulance went. They took him from
ambulance to Interstate 94, and I believe they
actually landed the helicopter right on 94. They
shut down the highway, landed the helicopter.
lifted him to the University of Chicago. And
if I'm not mistaken, he was clinically dead,
I believe, four times in between our house and
the University of Chicago. So, I mean, it was,
hey, you're dead. Wait, no, you're not. Hey,
you're dead. Wait, no, you're not. Hey, you're
dead. Wait, no, you're not. You know, and they
got him to the University of Chicago. And the
doctors, I mean, as you could imagine, said,
if he makes it through the night, it'll be a
miracle. You know, unfortunately, we're sorry.
There's not a whole lot we can do for him other
than the best we can do. You know, we can do
the best that we can do, but don't expect him
to be here in the morning. Yeah, and what, that
was 1996, I believe. So here we are, 2022. And,
I mean, he's a knucklehead, don't get me wrong,
but he's still here. You know, so, yeah, there
was something there that said, no, you're not
going. That's amazing. I mean, it is a miracle.
It truly is. I mean, there's no way to describe
it, having seen, you know, the devastation by
fire on a human body personally. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. What it does to the body. To realize
98 % of second and third degree burns, you know,
that it's just, it's not scientifically, I don't
know how that's possible. Now, what about the
journey he's been through? I mean, the surgeries,
some of the deficits, what's he been left with
after that? Non -stop surgery. I mean, I couldn't
tell you. I mean, it's hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of surgeries. I don't want to say
thousands because I'm not. for sure. But if it's
not, it very well could be close. Um, the, the
surgeries, the skin grafts, the releases, you
know, cause, cause as, as you get skin grafts,
I mean, obviously that skin graft doesn't grow
as you grow. So you're growing and everything's
stretching and everything would just pull so
tight and then you'd have to go and they would
release it. You know, it just opened up like
a big ax one and then they throw another skin
graft on there. And, um, He didn't have a lot
of places to graft skin from, you know, because
a lot of his, they tried the, I believe they
grew it in a Petri dish. They tried giving, I
don't know if it was cadaver skin, and I believe
he rejected it. So they basically had to, they
had to scavenge any little bits of skin that
would actually regenerate itself. They had to
scavenge off of his body. That they, you know,
the 2 % that wasn't touched, they had to scavenge
to do his skin grafts. You know, so I mean, even
still to this day, it's just a rough go. He has
problems with his legs. He had to actually have
his, from his knee down, had to have it amputated.
So now he's not only burned 98 % of his body,
he's got a prosthetic. So it's been a rough go
nonetheless. Well, I think it's important to
hear those stories. I've got a friend, Ryan Parrott,
who started a nonprofit called Sons of the Flag.
And he saw a need for the burn injured to be
able to be connected with the best trauma surgeons
in the planet. And so he helps veterans and first
responders usually. And I have one of the guys,
Shea Askew, who's a high level triathlete, was
really badly burned. To summarize, I think there
were bees that came out and they threw gasoline
on the bees. And it hit him as well. And it ignited.
And you can imagine the results. So he has prosthetic
ears. And again, like you said, the... The lack
of mobility affects, you know, the way he can
turn his head. Can he hear? Can he chew? All
these things. So, you know, when we are physically
and mentally preparing for a life in the fire
service and setting that bar high, sometimes
we need to be reminded by stories like your brother
of what, you know, those seconds may factor into
this child having a life that you just described.
Absolutely. And it's like you said, seconds.
Seconds. We're not talking minutes. It's seconds.
I don't know. It may still be the same. I'm not
sure. But with all the synthetics and everything
that are in furniture and just everything in
the house, all the synthetics, the last I remembered
was fire doubles every 30 seconds. So you start
with a fire this big, in five minutes, your room
is, the whole room is gone. So in another 30
seconds, that room becomes half of the house.
In another 30 seconds, that half of the house
becomes the whole house. So you're not just increasing
by this much every time. No, you're going from
here to here to here to the whole house. It's
literally seconds, not minutes. And that's obviously
why it's just so important that we're constantly
training and trying to get the heck out of the
house before their house is gone. Get out and
get there as fast as we can. Absolutely. in so
many conversations when i've asked the early
life stories you know they're they're more often
than not in our profession are elements of trauma
whether it's you know Seeing your brother go
through what you've been through, you know, all
kinds of the whole spectrum of traumas. And I
think more often than not, whether consciously
or subconsciously, it drives us towards certain
paths. When you look back, whether it was the
combat sports and or firefighting, were there
any elements of that incident or other parts
of your childhood that you think drove you into
the professions that you ended up in? No, I mean,
as far as like the fighting, the fighting side
of things. Um, when I, when I graduated high
school, obviously I wrestled and, um, for whatever
reason outside of high school, I just kind of
angry all the time. I just, I like, I felt like
I, like I needed to fight everybody, you know?
I, okay, well, this guy looked at me wrong. Fuck
this guy. I'm, you know, I'm trying to fight
him, you know, but I never really wanted to fight
people. I just, it was kind of like. I need to
fight you. I don't know why, but I need to fight
you. And luckily, I never got into any real altercations.
I never really acted on those feelings. So a
buddy of mine who had been fighting since it
was like our sophomore year in high school, he
was the one who actually said, hey, you know.
High school's over. Wrestling's over. You're
not, you know, you're not wrestling in college.
I went to like a community college where they
didn't have any wrestling team. So I didn't really,
I didn't know what I was going to do. You know,
I was working outside of the steel mills with
my dad. I didn't have any real idea of where
I was going or what I was doing. So my buddy
just said, hey, you know, why don't you come
try this? You just come in here and train tonight.
So I went in and trained with him that night
and we put the boxing gloves on and I got busted
in the nose and just leaked like a stuck pig.
I mean, my shirt was completely soaked in blood
and this and that. And we got done training and
he goes, what do you think? This is fucking awesome.
I love it. I'll be back tomorrow. So, again,
it just goes back to being a different breed
of people here. I'm leaking blood all over my
clothes and I got I got to keep going, you know.
But to the fire service side of things, I didn't
grow up aspiring to be a firefighter. Even after
my brother was hurt, it wasn't, this is what
I need to do. There was no real calling. My grandfather,
he was part of a volunteer fire service. I don't
know that there's a professional side of it,
but I know there's volunteer service in our family.
My cousins actually, Liberty Township volunteers,
they're fire chief. So there is fire service
in our family. But again, another buddy of mine
who was fighting, he got hired on in the City
of LaForte Fire Department. And he had said,
hey, we're hiring, you know, why don't you come
try out? Okay, cool. So I went and tried it out.
And the more you think about it, I like to think
of myself as a good person. I like to try and
help people. I like to do what I think is the
right thing. Try not to be a dickhead. But it
doesn't always. Sometimes you have to be a dickhead,
I guess. The more you think about it, if I could
help somebody like my brother, they're trapped
in a house fire. If I can get to them before
they have to go through what my brother went
through. Thank God in 14 years of service, I
haven't had to run a call like that. And I would
be completely happy going my entire career without
having to run a call like that. But to think
that I can potentially affect someone's life
by doing that for the better. You know, it just
brings a sense of, it just makes me happy. You
know, it makes me happy to help people. You know,
I want to see other people happy. I want to see
other people just, yeah, I like that feeling.
I like that feeling that I get knowing that somebody
is happy because of something that we did or
that somebody is going to survive because of
something that we did. I tried, back to making
a long story, a short story long. I tried out
for the fire department and I got hired on. You
know, I think I got hired on. And again, that
was another reason why I was able to compete
at such a high level of MMA was because of their
schedule. You know, so their schedule, I then,
we do a funny schedule rather than 24 -48. It's
a one -on -one -off, one -on -one -off, one -on
-four -off. So every five days we get basically
a small vacation. I don't know if you guys get
Kelly days or furlough days or anything like
that, but every 14th working day, we just basically
get a free day off. So if you, if you're on the
beginning or the tail end of your shift, you'll,
you'll work one off one, work one off six or
vice versa, or you'll work one off three, work
one off four. So the schedule was just perfect
for, for what I was doing. you know so there
was never any real aspirations to be a firefighter
until i got hired on and it was like man this
is this is pretty cool i really like this this
is this is this is me i could i could see me
retiring from this now going back to what you
said about the anger because you know you could
probably psychoanalyze that some of that was
related to you know what happened with your brother
or maybe some of the guilt that you carried initially
i have observed in myself that You know, there's
a lot of compounding elements that make us more
and more or challenge my mental health as you
progress through a career, sleep deprivation
and so many other areas. But I was so calm and
chill after Muay Thai, after Jiu Jitsu, people
would cut me up and I'd be like, whatever, dude,
you know, just let it go. Whereas before I was
like screaming at them. Did you find as you got
into the MMA training that that focused some
of that aggression and took it away from everyday
life? A hundred percent. I mean, it was like
almost instant. That first night, that first
night, it was like, what am I mad about? You
know, what do I have to be angry about? You know,
now it's in order to get me riled up, you can
say, do whatever you want to me. Don't fuck with
my family. You know, my boys, my wife, my mom,
my dad, you know, don't mess with my family.
You know, mess with me all you want. I don't
give a shit. But you start messing with family,
then we got issues. But there's no point. There's
no point to be upset about stupid, petty little
stuff. I heard something the other day, and I'm
probably going to butcher it really bad, but
somebody says something bad or calls you names
or whatever, and you get all worked up, get fired
up about it. These are just words. They're literally
vibrations that go in this year and come out
this year. And how you perceive that and how
you let that affect you is up to you. They're
literally words. It's a vibration. So if you
want to let that irritate you, that's on you.
It does absolutely nothing to you physically,
emotionally, unless you let it. Why? There's
no point in getting worked up. Well, I would
argue that's probably behind why we're seeing
it so easy to divide people at the moment. I
mean, the last two years, and I want to get to
actually a COVID topic as we get in a little
bit further. You had a fight at an interesting
time with Sean O'Malley. You take away physical
education, take away an environment that encourages
physical education. Now you add a poor diet,
you know, you add more stress. To me, you know,
you can't get in that relaxed phase, that post
-coital or post -fital phase that you have after
you, you know, leave the gym where you're like,
you know, okay. I've got all that shit out now.
And that is why I think people are so damn triggered
at the moment. Not everyone, but it seems to
be very, very easy to get people angry. And I
would argue it's because they physically do not
have an outlet. And I've talked to people in
the UK. We don't have that high, high level of
performance in most schools and college level
sports. We just don't, unless you're an elite
football player or rugby player. But what you'll
see is longevity in... sports in general so people
keep playing in their 20s 30s 40s and beyond
and what i see in america is this elite performance
and then this massive drop -off with a whole
bunch of uncle rico stories about how you were
going to be the next nfl star you know over a
quarter mile but it's but it's a sad you know
truth because now you don't see And it reflects
in society. I mean, it's horrible. I mean this
from a place of compassion and kindness. It breaks
my heart that we have people that were gifted
this miracle, the human body, and it's being
slowly broken down, which is then magnifying
the stress within themselves and destroying relationships
rather than building them. I mean, you hit the
nail on the head, honestly. I think a big one
is social media. I think a big one is the news
outlets. I just think the problem is people are
too busy. They're doing this. They're too busy
doing this. They're too busy eating fast food.
Like I said, diet to me is a huge one. I notice
a big difference eating whole foods versus eating
shit foods. I read this thing, and again, I don't
know if there's any truth to it because I haven't
dug into it, but if you look at TikTok. You know,
TikTok, I believe, is a Chinese -owned company.
So the algorithms for their TikToks, the Chinese
children. Their algorithms are other children
and other people being successful and doing big
things in life versus you look at the algorithms
for our American children and our American people.
They're watching big booty bitches shake their
ass all over the screen, you know. So they're
getting accustomed to, oh, I want to keep watching
that. I want to keep watching that. Whereas these
Chinese kids, that's why they're becoming so
successful is because they're watching all these
people do good things. And they get tied into
that, I believe. They get tied into that. Okay,
well, all I got to do is be an influencer. All
I got to do is take a bunch of funny videos.
They're making it – it's just the social media
and the media outlets are – it's just – it's
not good. It's not good for the human to sit
there. Eight hours a day and just do this and
do this and do this and do this. Because what
else are they doing? They're doing nothing productive.
They're not eating right. They're not exercising.
They're not they're they're just not getting
out. You know, get out and get out in the sun.
Get out in. I don't want to sound like a hippie
dippy, but take your shoes off and walk in the
grass, you know, become grounded. You know, I
think that's huge. I think that's huge of good
diets and good habits. yeah 100 even with the
grounding i've trained barefoot for years within
reason you know i mean certain things like um
double unders with a wire rope that they're uh
yeah they're better with shoes but but yeah overall
i'm barefoot most of the time and i agree 100
and that's what's so sad and like i said i'd
love to revisit the fighters experience during
covid but covid in general and i've talked about
this all the time and the reason why i revisit
it is because the lessons weren't learned but
if you look at what was told to the average person
and you're you're an athlete you know we're both
tactical athletes so we have a good understanding
of exercise nutrition etc but the average person
who maybe didn't were told stay inside Don't
be around your family and friends. You know,
the gyms are closed. The beaches and parks are
closed. But we can send alcohol and fast food
to your house while you watch Tiger King. I mean,
you can't blame the average person who's not
educated in this area. They weren't taught well
in school. They're not taught well on television.
We've created an environment that sets them up
for success rather than failure. I mean, excuse
me, I got that backwards. Failure rather than
success. Right. If you can't see through all
of those, signs that you just said, here, we'll
give you, we'll give you booze and fast food
and you can watch these stupid shows, but don't
go exercise. Don't, don't do what's healthy for
you. You know, if you can't see through that,
that I'm sorry, but you got bigger problems.
You know, you got bigger problems. I, I, um,
I wrote the poll 360 on the whole COVID thing.
I, it started out as, okay, this is kind of stupid
too. Okay, maybe it's kind of serious too. This
is stupid. This is just dumb. For some people,
I get it. For some people, I understand. But
for those people, like I said, get out and move.
Get out and move. Just move a little bit. Literally
go for a walk. Go for a walk outside. See how
it changes everything. Every day, go for a walk.
It's that simple. They sit here and... They just
sit there and then they don't understand why
they're sick and why they're fat and why their
back hurts. And they don't understand all this
stuff. Just go out and do something. I've always
been a big believer of the day you stop moving
is the day you start dying. There's 100 % truth
to that. Whether you're 30 years old or whether
you're 90 years old. You know, now the 90 year
old, there may be some issues to where they can't
move. But if you're physically able to move and
you continue to move, you're just adding minutes
to your life. You know, versus a 30 year old
who's just going to sit there and play video
games and 12 hours a day sitting on a video game
chair and just playing video games. You know,
you watch the South Park. about these kids playing
video games. They get fat and got acne. That's
truth. That's America. That is the truth. You
sit there and do nothing. Your body just starts
dying. Your muscles literally start dying. I
don't know what the answer to that is other than
to tell people to get out and go do something.
you know you you can tell you can tell them all
day long oh yeah i know i need to do it i need
to do it well you know you need to do it then
do it you know well it's just it's hard no it's
not it's mental it's mental it's all mental it's
it's it's i was a buddy of mine at work he was
actually listening to a podcast of a woman who
had I believe they had just had a kid. She was
losing her job. He lost his job. It was all about
the COVID thing and this and that. And she said
one day she woke up just feeling like a big fat
piece of shit and not worth anything and this
and that. So she told herself, tomorrow when
my alarm goes off, I'm getting up and I'm going
to do something productive. And she told herself
in her head, she would count down, 5, 4, 3, 2,
1, and then go. And then 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and go.
Anytime she wanted to do something, it would
be 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And it was something about
reteaching the brain or the brain learning that
as soon as it hears 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, something's
about to happen. We don't know what we're going
to do yet, but we're going to go do something.
So 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, get up and go, no matter what.
And again, I... I'm really bad at retaining information.
He knows that he knows it better than I do, but,
but I don't know if she's become super successful
because of it and has turned her life around
and they're no longer, you know, they, they can,
they got a roof over their head. They can feed
their kids and all this garbage, but the mental
side of things of just get up and go, just get
up and go, just get up and go. You tell yourself,
just get up and go and go do it. Go do it. Don't
tell yourself, okay, I'm going to go. And then.
If you're going to tell yourself you're going
to get up and go, you got to get up and go. Because
the brain is going to think, oh, okay, yeah,
you're crying wolf again. Get up and go and go.
It's easy to say, I guess. If you get the right
mindset, it's easy to do. You just got to do
it. Do it a few times, and a few times turns
into a weekly thing, turns into a monthly thing,
turns into a yearly thing, turns into a lifelong
thing. It's not just a thing that you do for
a month. It's a thing that you do for life. And
I think that's where people get lost. Oh, well,
if I do this for a month, I'll probably – no.
If you do this for a life, you do it for a lifetime.
Set good habits. Get into good habits. and continue
that habit. It's consistency. Consistency is
key almost everywhere. Almost with every aspect
of life, consistency is key. If you're not consistent
on it, you're not going to keep doing it. Yeah,
I would argue as well. You get a little pushback
for martial arts and CrossFit. Oh, it's expensive.
I think what people don't understand is when
you walk through the door of a dojo, of an MMA
gym, of a CrossFit gym, there will be an element
of 5 -4 -3 -2 -1. Like you just have to make
it across the threshold wearing the right clothes.
An hour later, you're going to look back and
go, well, shit, I just worked out or I just rolled
or I just whatever. And that's it. So they're
a better skilled, more experienced people that
will lead you through. that i mean i crossfit
i coach crossfit but i go to other people's classes
and i go to my you know my jiu -jitsu classes
and because other people are better than me and
you know they also motivate me if i walk through
a door i can't turn around and go yeah i don't
want to do that you're stuck now you're there
so then you know you kind of swept along by the
torrent that is all the people that you're working
out with some are going to be fitter and stronger
some might be less fit and strong but collectively
you're going to go through that together And
you're going to turn around an hour later going,
I'm so glad I showed up today. 100%. I can't
tell you how many times. I mean, countless. I
have a regimen of every Sunday, Tuesday, and
Thursday. Those are my run days. And I don't
like to run distances because distance to me,
for what I do, distance to me doesn't do me anything.
OK, I like my sprint intervals. I have I have
to run intervals. I like I like the heart rate
going up and down, up and down, rest and recovery,
rest and recovery. So every every Sunday, Tuesday
and Thursday, I have a 30 minute sprint interval
thing that I do on the treadmill. And I can't
tell you how many times it's just been. I don't
want to do this. I don't feel good. I don't I
don't go and do it. Go and do it at the end of
those 30 minutes. OK, I'm really glad I did that.
I want to keep going. So then you just continue
on to doing some accessory work or something.
Because usually Sunday, Tuesdays, and Thursdays
are a little bit lighter days for me anyways.
So, okay, I'll just continue doing some core
stuff, some accessory work. But just going and
doing it. Just getting past that threshold. You
step into that door, into that realm of I'm going
to do this. And then you do it. Whether you feel
good when you do it or whether you don't, at
the end of it, you're going to be glad you did
it. And like you said, you go into these other
classrooms that these people are better than
you. You get out of your comfort zone. And I
think that's a lot of people's problems is they
don't want to get out of their comfort zone.
Well, I'm comfortable here. I've got my snuggie
on and I feel good. So what? Take it off, get
naked and jump in the snow. Get uncomfortable,
man. That's when I was... Training, you know,
I still train. Let me say when not when I was
because I still train. But when I was training
for fights, I would try to find that deepest,
darkest hole that I could find, make myself uncomfortable
and live there for that training session. You
know, because if I could live uncomfortably for
an hour, hour and a half in this training session,
15 minutes of uncomfortable is no big deal. You
know, so so that's people they just they don't
like to be uncomfortable. They don't they don't
like it. certain people certain people i i feel
they they embrace that they embrace that they
take it and and i feel like you can point those
people out in the crowd absolutely what an interesting
perspective i'd love to get from you as well
is sparring from when you first started as a
young man through to now i started in semi -contact
you know it's kind of tippy tappy taekwondo then
went to you could knock people out with your
feet but not your hands and then you know then
got found myself at shoot box in la which i've
talked about this before i actually trained with
anthony johnson he was kind of new fighter back
then too and we just lost him sadly last month
yeah yeah that's terrible But it was Fight Club,
hands down. I got ear perforations. I got my
nose broken, you know, jaw probably dislocated
again. And, you know, had headaches and trying
to go back to... a shift when you're still foggy
and you've got black eyes, it doesn't, doesn't
look great. It's not a good optic. Um, fast forward
to today, I'm seeing a lot of the coaches and
gyms now are pulling away from that. Oh, you
can condition the brain by murdering each other
to a lot more pad work, a lot more light sparring
and saving the real hard contact for the ring
or the Octagon. What was your evolution, if any
of the level of sparring through your career
in the 20 years? It's, I mean, you, basically
just said it that was when i first started fighting
it was before it was the cool thing to do i mean
my first fight was april 2003 um so back then
it was let's it went from let's put some headgear
on and beat the shit out of each other to yeah
let's not even worry about the headgear and beat
the shit out of each other to okay we're and
that's uh The gym that I went, that I go to on
the North side of Chicago, new breed with Mark
Vives and Bob Hemrich. We went to a lot of offense
defense type sparring. Okay. You are, you are
only allowed. And they basically yell switch,
switch, switch offense defense. Okay. And you
pull your punches obviously. Cause if we're,
we're sparring with small gloves and you are
throwing a hundred percent, you're going to throttle
people. You know, I mean, you are, they're, they're
going to get sparked for sure. But, um, I think
the thing is knowing your range, knowing your
distance. I can pull my punch, but I know if
I were to fully follow through, you're mine all
day long. The body and the brain is only going
to take so much damage. And that's the boat that
I'm in right now. That is why my last three fights,
you watch O'Malley. O'Malley sparked me. But
I feel like if I fought O'Malley five, six years
ago, Yeah, he may have dropped me, but I don't
think he would have. I don't think it would have
been on. I don't think he would have starched
me. But then you look at Castaneda. I fought
Castaneda. That dude didn't hit me hard. He hit
me a lot. You know, he hit me with a lot of punches.
Now, again, five years ago, I would have walked
through that and smiled at him, told him, keep
coming. Now you go to my Stammen fight. You look
at Cody Stammen. He just grazed me right on the
side of the head, right? Just right in the right
spot. just hit me with the side of his glove,
and that was enough to send me into a stupor.
The body only takes so much damage. You can only
take so much until that button's been pushed.
I can't do a cartwheel without getting dizzy
anymore. Now, part of that is probably age. I
get that. But part of that is also 20 years of
sparring and getting hit and fighting and 40
-plus fights and God knows how many rounds of
sparring. You can only take so much damage. And
when that damage is done, you either need to
change your game plan and not get hit, or it's
time to walk out the door. You know, and that's
the boat that I'm in. I can still take a decent
punch, depending on where it's at. You hit me
right in the right spot, and it's kind of like,
whoa, hold on a minute here. So, um, the, the
heavy sparring, I don't want to say there's not
a place for it because it's, it's the, the way
to get better at fighting, I feel is fighting
just like the way to get better at wrestling
is wrestling. You obviously, yeah, you have to
train and you have to go through the motions
and you have to do this, but if you're just going
through the motions, it may just be going through
the motions when you get in there and compete.
I don't think you need to be knocking each other's
heads off, but I think you need to know that
you can still touch that person. You know, again,
muscle memory. You know, your muscle memory.
If my muscle memory is, and I'm only throwing
my punches to here, well, I'm not going to be
used to fully extending. You know, okay, okay,
okay, I got you, I got you, I got you. Well,
no, you really didn't because if I can reach
out and touch, I'm not throwing 100%, but I still
touched you. So if I know that I can touch you
and my distance and my space is correct, well,
I know that when I throw hard, it's going to
be faster, it's going to be harder, and I still
got you. Well, I think a scary thing as well,
a lot of people come on here, whether they're
combat martial artists or whether they're breachers
or special operators, whoever they are. You have
the TBI element, which is obviously what you're
experiencing at the hands of another person or
feet. But then the amplifying element is sleep
deprivation. And a lot of people in the first
responder professions don't realize how damaging
that actually is. So, you know, I think that
that's a thing that we really need to take a
step back and look at as well. My goal is that
we... we give more rest and recovery between
shifts i know you said your your schedule is
pretty good but it also depends on you know the
core volume too but a lot of people that work
the 24 48s they never get the chance to to process
that so if you add you know whether it's your
profession that's causing concussions or your
your sport um you add that to not sleeping that's
a recipe for amplified brain brain challenges
in the future i agree i and i used to be a a
believer of, I can sleep four hours and I can
go, go, go, go, go. I can just keep going. Not
so much anymore. You see all these people talk
about how, oh, this millionaire, he sleeps till
three o 'clock and he gets up and does this and
does this and does this. That's bullshit, man.
Absolutely not. You cannot function, at least
highly function, on three, four hours of sleep.
It just doesn't work that way. The sleep is,
I think, as important as the training, you know.
That's where most of your recovery, I would almost
venture to say all of your recovery happens,
you know, because the body needs to rest and
repair and recover. Well, when you're sleeping,
good deep sleep, that's what the body is focusing
on is good rest, recovery, and repair versus.
I'm training. I sleep for four hours. I'm up.
I'm training. I'm doing something. I'm working.
The body, like I said, has no time to recover
and repair. It needs that time. I used to believe
that. Not anymore. Not anymore. I got to have
that. I like that rest and recovery. My body
functions better. Again, when I first started
working with my strength and training coach or
strength and conditioning coach. We would get
into a training session and he, dude, just take
a break. No, I can't. I can't. I got to fight
this dude. I got to be ready. Take a break. Just
take a break. It took him probably the better
part of three to five years to get me to actually
learn to take a break. But you got to listen
to your body. You know, you get into a good.
Now, I'm not saying don't. train when you don't
feel like it, you know, cause, cause light work,
light work is okay. But if you've got a heavy,
hard day ahead of you and it's like, okay, I
am not feeling this. Well, maybe you need to
sit that day out, you know, listen to your body.
And if you're supposed to have a hard, a hard
training day, or it's a sparring day, or, you
know, if it's just a hard day and your body's
telling you, no, that hard day is, is going to
be that much harder. And then the next day is
going to be even hard again, because. your body's
not ready for it. I would take three days of
training at a hundred percent versus six at 60.
You know, if I'm training six days at 60%, again,
back to muscle memory, if I'm training 60%, that's
what my body thinks. Okay. 60%. See, that's what
your body's used to. If I get three days of training
at a hundred percent, not only am I getting better
training, but my body knows what a hundred percent
feels like. So to, to get that rest and recovery.
If your body needs a rest day, do jump on an
airdyne bike just for 30 minutes, just nice and
slow pace, just consistent movement. Take that
rest when you need it. Take that rest when you
can get it, especially for people in our profession
because there's been countless nights that I
can think of, okay, the tones went off at 9 o
'clock. Okay, the tones went off at 11. Okay,
the tones went off at 3. Okay, the tones went
off at 5. Fuck. I'm lucky if I slept 30 minutes
that night, you know, by the time you get back,
you get back in bed, you do our reports, you
sit down. Okay. Okay. Let's go again. You know,
and not, not, not only just the constant up,
down, up, down, but what that's doing to your
heart, your blood pressure. Every, every time
those tones go off, boom, that's a jump. You
know, your, your, your, your system's getting
a jolt every single time those tones go off.
So. Getting that recovery when you can, I think,
is important. Getting that rest when you can,
I think, is huge. Yeah, I think we're really
bad at telling ourselves the fairy tale that
we have all this time off. We are bad at that.
Because if you take the 24 -48, which I worked
for a lot of my career without Kelly, that's
always one on, two off. Well, a day is eight
hours, plus an hour lunch to nine. So it's three
days on, one day off. And it's, oh, it's only
10 days a month. No, if you do that equation,
it's 30 days a month. You know, it's a 56 -hour
work week. So when everyone else is exhausted
from their 40 -hour office job and gone to bed,
you're awake working pediatric megacodes and
trying to pull someone out of a fire. So we're
our own worst enemy with that. You know, if you're
going to ask someone to do the jobs that we do,
we should at least be at a 42 -hour week. If
not, you could argue even less. But, you know,
until we... change this kind of fairy tale that
we talked about which was probably amazing when
we had dalmatians and horses and steam powered
you know the horse gone buggies yeah but that's
not 2022 so i think we have to really look at
that and hearing people who are athletes in the
fire service and understanding the negative mental
health element of not sleeping and the negative
performance element therefore the higher level
of injury um all those i mean it's it's nonsensical
when you look at the whole equation but we need
the real leaders in the fire service to step
up and say, look, we, we, we've been doing it
wrong for so long. You know, I don't know what
your pattern works out to be per week, how many
hours, but you know, the average person, like
I said, 56 hours a week, this is insane. I think
that's what ours, what ours is based off of is
a 56 hour work week. You know, cause there's,
there's times when we'll work, we'll work three
days out of the week. There's times when we'll
work, you know, again, depending on a Kelly,
but we'll work one or two days out of the week.
So it's all dependent. um but i believe that's
what ours is based off of also it's a 56 hour
week yeah now with with that were you wc champion
before you became a firefighter ever got that
right chronologically yes so wec was 2006 when
i won the belt if i'm not mistaken and i fired
i hired on the fire service in 2008 okay so as
you're progressing through and you know you have
this realization like oh shit i'm actually a
champion of something legit um you know you're
you're climbing and i mean you look at the people
that you fought as incredible all the you know
the who's who of your division um when you joined
the fire service as you progress through did
you notice the impact of that schedule and the
job itself on your training because the reason
i ask tim kennedy's been on I think three or
four times now. But in one of the first interviews
I had with Tim, he said, well, look, it wasn't
making excuses, but he was an active duty Green
Beret as well, still performing at a high level,
but serving his country simultaneously. So, you
know, was there a takeaway or did you notice
some sort of diminished performance because of
the fact that you were also wearing a uniform?
No, actually. And again, back to Tim Kennedy,
I love that dude. That dude, absolutely amazing
human being. Love that guy. Love everything he
does. But as far as like a diminishing performance,
I actually think I had an increased performance.
Because before that, I was working 60 hours a
week outside of a steel mill, just dirty, nasty
work. So I would work from 6 .30 in the morning
till 4 .30 in the afternoon. And then I would
go lift for an hour and then I would go train
for an hour and a half. So, I mean, my 10 -hour
day quickly became a 14, 16 -hour day of work
every day. You know, and again, I won a WEC title
at that, but I was also young. You know, I was
also young. So, as my age increased and that
schedule, I think, helped me to maintain that
level. You know, especially with the four days
off, you know, you get you get a recovery day
and then, OK, I'll go train hard for a couple
of days. I get a recovery day. I go back to work.
You know, my work days, I would work out while
I was there, but not as intensely. Obviously,
should we catch something or, you know, just
sometimes you just need it, depending on how
my four days went off. But I feel like that schedule
actually increased my performance and allowed
me to continue down that path for as long as
I did. Beautiful. All right. Yeah, it's funny.
Ron Ortiz, the high -level CrossFit guy, and
he had a similar thing. But I think his dynamic
at that station specifically, I think he was
at a beach station. I don't think they were up
all night. So it's a different dynamic to some
people listening, myself included. All right.
Well, then I want to get to nutrition. But just
before we do. I used to train with Felicia Spencer
and her fight with Amanda Nunes. You were on
that card against Sean O'Malley. Again, yet another
phenomenal athlete. But what was interesting
is you've got these people who were about to
step in the cage and spit and bleed and all over
each other. But at the time, they're wearing
3M masks that were probably doing absolutely
nothing. But it was very much, as you said, sadly,
deeper into this COVID thing. It was more the
visuals, the optics than... actual medical science
with you know fitted n95s etc etc so what was
that experience for you as an mma fighter during
covid and then we'll take that one ufc for an
example well they're all wearing their masks
i mean you can probably uh venture to guess what
my what my stance on the whole covid thing is
if you watch our weigh -ins i had the mask and
that's people are you supposed to wear it around
your nose to be effective really come on anyways
um It was weird. It was really weird. And when
they when they when they said that they're going
to continue fights, but it's going to be the
fighters in their corners. I mean, that was that
was strange to me. You know, it's like it's kind
of like the old school Brazilian days, you know,
OK, our best fighter from our gym and your best
fighter from your gym. We're going to meet here.
And we're going to fight. We're going to see
who's got the best fighter and who's got the
best gym. That's almost exactly what it was.
It was so creepy. I mean, you could hear every
smack, especially on the TV. You really got to
hear what it's like to actually be in there.
You could hear the corners clearly. You could
hear the smacks clearly. Just a strange, eerie
type of. realism you know this is this is as
raw as it gets you don't have the crowd screaming
this is this is a fistfight this is what a fistfight
sounds like if you've ever wondered what it's
like when leather cracks skin here you go um
it was it was it was um an interesting experience
Now, just with that as well, you have this 20
-year career. I mean, you were fighting earlier
on WEC, then UFC, and then for this high level,
you've been a champion WEC. You're fighting phenomenal
athletes all the way through your UFC career
as well. I see a lot of people struggle when
they transition out of a profession that... they
have identified with and you know obviously we're
invested in that career some people transition
flawlessly but some people if you watch for example
the documentary the weight of gold or you know
you look at some of your fellow firefighters
i'm sure you know you're on the back door now
you're not that thing anymore and and some people
struggle with that identity with that purpose
with that that loss of tribe was when you know
what was it that made you finally pull the trigger
on retiring and then what was that transition
out where you went from being in the cage to
obviously still being immersed in the community
but not being under the spotlights anymore so
i i feel like my transition is the former the
flawlessly everything is just like everything's
in the right place at the right time i have i
have two small boys uh six and eight years old
uh both of them are wrestling i coached their
wrestling team um you know i coached their wrestling
team last year uh it was a little bit harder
i i made most of their practices um but you know
When you're training and you have your own thing
going on, the unfortunate thing for them is dad's
training is a little more important than a six
-year -old wrestling's training, you know, because
dad's training is what's going to make the house
payment and this and that. But as far as, like,
getting out of it, I think I'm happier now than
I've been in a long time. In a long time. I can
focus on my boys. I can focus on their wrestling
team. I can focus, not that I wasn't focused
on the fire department, but I have a captain.
He was the former assistant chief. Now he's back
down to captain, but he would always give me
shit about the fighting and this thing. He goes,
well, when are you going to quit that fight?
Then you can focus more on your part -time job.
So I guess, you know, I'm at a point now where
I can focus more on my part -time job. You know,
not that I, again, I was never not focused on
it because if you're not focused on a job like
firefighting, I mean, the consequences are real.
You're not coming home. You know, so everything's
just kind of in the right place at the right
time. Dad's ride's over. My boy's ride is just
beginning. You know, what should it be, whatever
they want to do. But as far as coaching the wrestling
team, and if dad doesn't make it to the gym for
his training session, well, there's really no
consequences for it. I don't have to worry about
am I in good enough shape to fight another elite
athlete. I just need to worry about am I in good
enough shape to fight your average everyday American,
which that's not very hard to do per what we've
already talked about. You know, the transition
is, I'm in a good place. You know, mentally,
physically, I just, I feel more healthy. I feel
more sane. I'm not worried about my training
as much as I am or as much as I used to. You
know, and as far as the decision to walk away
that night, the night that I retired, I didn't
know I was going to retire. It was in the back
of my head. I know a lot of people gave DC a
lot of shit for, oh, why didn't you give Eddie
the mic, blah, blah, blah, blah. He was taking
his gloves off. I wasn't taking my gloves off
because I was ready to retire. If he would have
handed me the mic and back, oh, okay, here we
go. Let's do it. Do what, man? What are you talking
about? I'm just taking my gloves off because
here we are. You know, so it, I remember going
into that fight. Before I actually signed to
fight, I would go to the gym and I had fun. It
was fine. Okay, I want to be here. This is great.
I'm having fun. No big deal. As soon as I signed
that line, hey, okay, we're going to fight in
June. And the next day I showed up to the gym
like, this fucking sucks. I don't want to be
here. So it just wasn't fun. I think that's a
lot of, even like Cowboy said, a lot of his reasons,
that's my reason. You know, that was, we've been
in it for a long time. It just, it wasn't fun
anymore. When you have to do it, it's not fun.
When you want to do it and just because you want
to be there, it's a blast. So, you know, that
night I sat down and talked to Sean Shelby and
I, you know, basically I told him, he said, dude,
you need to retire. It's time to retire. So,
well, you know, well, I goes, dude, no, you need
to retire. You need to retire. He said, Sean,
okay, we've had this discussion before. If you're
ever thinking about cutting me, just let me know
so I can retire. I said, so if you tell me right
now that if I don't retire, you're going to cut
me, then okay. He goes, what don't you fucking
get? You are retired. I specifically remember
him looking at me. What don't you fucking get?
You are retired. Okay, Sean, I'm retired. We're
done. And that moment right then and there when
I said, okay, I'm good. I'm done. It was like,
just everything released. Just a, okay, I'm done.
I probably should have done it a little while
back. But we always hold on too long, you know,
especially in that sport. I even told him in
the locker room, my thought was, okay, let's
get this fight done and over with. Let's go win
this fight. Let's walk away. We're done. And
he looked at me and he goes, no, you wouldn't.
Absolutely not. If you would have won that fight,
you would have been begging me for when's my
next one. And he's probably right. He's probably
almost 100 % right. Because even though I had
it set in my mind, let's go win this fight and
walk away on a win, he said 2 % of people walk
away on top. And those 2 % of people, unfortunately,
I'm not in that 2%. And that's fine. Like I said,
I'm in a good place physically and mentally now.
So I can focus. My boys, my wife, my part -time
career. Again, right place, right time. I'm up
for a promotion in January, so I'll be getting
promoted to a captain spot. There's a spot in
the dive team opening up in the springtime, so
I can focus more time on that. Right place, right
time. Well, it's so important to hear your perspective.
Obviously, you're talking about fighting specifically,
but I've seen this in some people in the fire
service, too. People stay 20, 25, 30 years because
their pension tells them that you need to stay
20, 25 or 30 years. That doesn't mean that's
the actual shelf life of your career, depending
on the department. I end up transitioning out
for totally. separate reason i i found myself
ultimately after working at what i would argue
one of the best fire departments in the states
working for one of the worst fire departments
in the States. And after five years of making
changes, you know, the universe was like, listen,
dipshit, I don't know how to make this any clearer.
You need to go do this podcast thing because
you're not going to change it here. And so that
was my transition out. But what used to break
my heart was seeing firefighters or cops or whoever
else with an app on their phone that count you
down. Oh, I need another nine years, you know,
three months, 27 days. And I'm like, oh, for
fuck's sake. you need to either change departments
or maybe it's just time. You don't have to stay
because a pension tells you to. That's 10, you
know, whatever many years of your life that you
could be doing something that you absolutely
love instead. Yeah, if you're counting it down,
and again, if you've made it to your, okay, my
last year, okay, I'm retiring. Now, okay, now
you got your ticker. Now you got your, I get
that. But if you've got your ticker 10 years
prior, Those 10 years, they're probably going
to go by fairly slow. When it's time, it's time.
And you need to know and you need to walk away.
I don't know when I'll walk away. I couldn't
tell you. I'm not thinking about it. It's one
of those, like you said, if you start counting
down the days and those days are five, 10 years
down the road, you're already too late. You know,
the thing that our department has is you can
sign into what they call a drop where they'll
freeze your pension for the last three years.
And then basically when you walk away, they give
you that check for your last three years of your
pension. So you get a giant check, but your pension
is frozen. So your pension doesn't grow anymore.
So I can understand counting down the last three
years, at least on our department, because. I'm
signed into the pension. I'm retiring in three
years. I've already set, you know, the wheels
are in motion. This is happening. But any more
than that, you're just not enjoying it anymore.
You know, if you're, okay, okay, I can't wait.
Now, don't get me wrong. When I get to work,
there's days when it's like, okay, I just can't
wait to get home. You know, that's just human
nature. I like my family. I like my boys. I love
my wife. I like being home. I'm a homebody. So
I know there's some people that they got to,
I just got to get away. Give me five minutes.
There's times when my boys are driving me up
the wall. It's like, oh, what? Come on. I get
five minutes down the road. Okay, I can't wait
to go to work. Can't wait to go to work. I get
five minutes down the road. Okay, I'll go back.
I can go back now. I just need a five -minute
reset. So, you know, counting down that many
years, I think that's too much. That's too much.
It's time to, like you said, go do something
else. Go do something else. Find something. Now,
if you're counting down five years and you're
five years, because 20 years until we're vested
into a pension, I would assume it's probably
the same for you guys. But if you're counting
down five years and then in five years I've got
my 20, I'm going to go do something else. So,
I mean, it's kind of a double -edged sword there.
If you're counting down, if you've already got
your 20 and you're counting down another 5 or
10 years, just go out the door. But if at 20
you want to walk out and go do something else
and you've got 15, 16 years in, okay, we can
count down the last couple of years. So knowing
when it's time is a big thing. Because if you're
not happy there and you're not doing – or you're
not focused on that job again that job could
potentially be yours or somebody else's life
absolutely yeah i think that's it if your heart
isn't in it you know and you're unhappy then
no amount of money is worth that and then like
you said that pays back the other way if you're
not dedicated to the profession you might become
a liability which will cost you know your own
life one of your partner's lives or someone that
we're supposed to be responding to absolutely
absolutely Well, staying on the longevity for
one moment as well, I heard you touch on a pretty
powerful story that steered your... kind of journey
when it came to your own nutrition so i'd love
to just kind of hear your perspective on that
because there's a lot of uh i know there's all
kinds of shit going on the liver king spouting
and all these fucking idiots that we hear on
on online and there's a lot of anti -plant -based
vegan vegetarian rhetoric too to me everyone
has to explore and find their own nutritional
path but i find that the whole food is usually
the kind of true north. So what was the story
that kind of, you know, the personal story that
steered you towards that different, you know,
that change in direction nutritionally? So nutritionally,
dude, I didn't start eating greens until I was
probably 26 years old. And at 26, it was green
beans, canned green beans at that. Oh, I'll try
green beans. Hey, not too bad. You know, so green
beans stemmed until, okay, maybe I better eat
a little bit better. And it started. When I first
started fighting, it was pizza and McDonald's.
I eat whatever I want because 22 -year -old man,
your metabolism is just on fire. So I turned
26 and metabolism changed a little bit. And it's
like, I'm gaining a little bit of weight I don't
want to gain. So I started eating a little bit
better. Notice as I started eating better, I
started feeling better. Okay, well, we'll get
rid of this and we'll add this. I change things,
feel a little bit better. Get rid of this, add
this. Change things, feel a little bit better.
About five, six years ago, maybe even eight years
ago, I don't know, about the early 30s, I went
from in camp, I would eat clean and I would eat
good, what I would call good. Looking back now,
probably wasn't super good. And I still don't
eat super good. But back then, I would eat clean
while I was in camp. And it would take me. all
six to eight weeks of camp to get down to my
weight where I needed to be. You know, I like
to train around 149 to 151, somewhere in there.
And then after camp, I would go nuts. Pizza every
day. I had bags full of Reese's and just fall
off the rails. I think I jumped up as the highest
I've ever been was 163, 164, which I know all
of a sudden you look at Al Jermaine, he's 176.
fuck did you do that man how do you go from 136
to 176 in a week how did that work um so i i
quickly realized that that all of this work trying
to get down to a training weight just to you
know it takes me six weeks to get down to my
training weight well after those six weeks then
it's just a recover repair and keep things sharp
get down to fight weight and fight so I quit
doing the binging off the rails, and I started
my fight diet. Everybody says diet. Well, your
diet should just be what you eat every day. I'm
going to try this diet. I'm going to try that
diet. I'm going to try this diet. Fuck the diet
fads, man. Just eat good food. I started doing
that, and I quickly noticed that my weight wasn't
shooting up. My weight stayed outside of camp.
I was maybe 154, maybe 155. And then to get back
down to 151, it was just doing away with pizza
once a week. You know, that's just a family thing.
I think a lot of families do the Friday pizza
night. You know, so we would do pizza once a
week. And outside of that, I'd eat fairly clean.
And it was, I mean, my weight was right back
down to where I needed to be in training camp.
I tried the whole, I tried the keto thing, which,
again, if you're a keto advocate, I'm sorry,
but fuck keto. Um, especially for, for an endurance
athlete, maybe, but, but for somebody, a high
intensity athlete, no, it didn't work. I felt
fantastic for about the first two weeks and then
went, just felt like garbage. Um, I tried the
plant -based thing, uh, plant -based with eggs.
You know, I would eat, I would eat eggs and,
um, actually felt pretty good. I did that for
about six months. And then I don't know if I
was getting sick. Or if it was just the lack
of meat or I don't know what it was. I just was
feeling off one day. I said, you know, I'm going
to have a burger. I'm going to try some meat.
And then went back onto the mostly plant -based
but a little bit of meat. And I'm still in limbo
with the plant -based versus omnivore versus,
you know, that type of dieting. But I think it's
like you said. I think everybody is different.
This person could eat 100 % vegan and do fantastic,
be great on it. But somebody else eats it and
they're iron deficient and anemic and they got
all these issues. I think straight carnivore,
I don't think there's enough evidence on that
long term to justify eating straight carnivore.
I think you're lacking sufficient nutrients in
your plants and vegetables. You know, I was listening
to a podcast. Gosh dang it, I don't know. I don't
remember who it was, but it was basically, it
was a carnivore diet advocate. He's a doctor.
If you said his name, I would know him. You may
even know who he is. I don't know. But I was
listening to a podcast of this guy debating plant
-based versus carnivore. And the plant -based
guy said, well, you know, there's no long -term
studies. on straight carnivore diet. A, it hasn't
been around long enough. And B, they're not doing
these years and years and years long studies.
You get, well, what about this study? They studied
this many peoples and it was eight weeks. And
Bali goes, eight weeks. You just said it, eight
weeks. That's not a long -term study. You know,
so I feel like you can benefit by doing it short
-term, but in the long -term. I don't think it's
going to be sufficient. I believe it was Chris
Kresser. I don't know if you've ever listened
to anything he talks about. He talked about –
him and – it might have been Huberman. Andrew
Huberman might have mentioned something about
basically a two -thirds plants and veggies and
meat. You know, good meats. You know, and this
thing every little while. This burger, that –
no, good plant – or not plant, grass -fed beef.
you know and again i get it that's expensive
not everybody can do that but i think the two
-thirds fruits and veggies and then the other
the other third being from meats whether it be
beef whether it be uh liver whether it be chicken
you know just just i think there's nutrients
in all of the food that your body needs um that
you need to take in and again people are different
so the two -thirds may work for you may work
for you may work for you but it's not going to
work for you you know so it's a matter of trying
things and seeing how you feel and and taking
it from there well and again back to that environment
you know i had the exact same experience with
you at six months on plant base which i felt
amazing had the best poos saved a whole bunch
of money on toilet paper um it was incredible
but i felt And again, it might have just been
I was fighting something off at that time, but
I felt there was there was at that six months
there was a diminished strength, diminished energy.
And so then I introduced meat. And I think that
when you look at, you know, some of these things,
I mean, the carnivore, I struggle to understand
because prehistorically we're not good at catching
animals. So I don't know how the hell we're supposed
to be designed to eat meat all the time. Yes.
And then the same with with plant based. I mean,
I think that we were probably. if you look way,
way back, we were probably scavengers. We probably
were sucking out, you know, bone marrow and eating.
If you look at our digestive tract and our teeth,
okay, yeah, we have sharp teeth, but we also
have grinder teeth. You know, I believe, like
you said, and I think it was the Game Changers
documentary that I watched with... James Wilkes.
Yes, Wilkes. I think, yes. Talking about our
digestive tract, he said if you look at the digestive
tract of a carnivore, it's this long. If you
look at the digestive tract of an herbivore or
omnivore or whatever, it's this long because
there's so much other stuff going on there that
you need to break down. We have this digestive
tract. We don't have that digestive tract. I
don't know. I don't know what. is right for everybody
but i i feel like i feel like the again the two
-thirds whole foods you know and anything that's
that's if it took any kind of processing to make
it i don't think it's i don't think it's right
for us no well i think you hit the word on the
head what i've seen are the commonalities between
the carnival diet though i take it back some
of the people i see that are very pro carnivore
eating it in and out all the time which i don't
think is clean meat but that aside removing that
bad example you know whether it's vegetarian
vegan you know a lot of these there is a common
denominator and i had james on the show because
i was nauseated by i think it was chris chris
or on um joe rogan's and they were just demonizing
veganism i'm like for fuck's sake you wasted
six hours just trying to prove a point that you're
not going to win because not everyone's the same
but where you all agree is you remove processed
shitty food that's where it all aligns so if
you choose your right fix for you and that is
the common denominator you're probably going
to see amazing results 100 it's it's whole foods
non -processed shit um And again, I watched the
Cressor and Wilkes while they were debating back
and forth on Rogan. And it's funny because I
feel like they don't feel any different. I feel
like they feel the same. But Wilkes, he was at
his throat because he was attacking his documentary,
which I understand that. He did a really good
job, I think, of defending all of his research
and everything he did. I think he did a very
good job and basically hit the nail on the head.
But again, at the end of the day, as much as
they were at each other's throats, well, I say
at each other's throats. Chris, I don't think
really ever was at his throat, but James was
just pounding, pounding, pounding. I feel like
they feel the same. It's like, okay, you guys
are on the same. Exactly. team here you're on
the same team here what are we throwing punches
for so but again it was because Crestor I think
was was trying to debunk his his film yeah yeah
and I think that's the problem is they looked
at it at absolutes and I've what saddened me
is again that was six hours as you said they
could have come together and I actually had James
on before he went back on Joe's show so I had
to hold off releasing it until it went out so
I didn't give away any secrets but you know again
it's You could have spent six hours saying, okay,
well, you know, you say this and, you know, that
may not be entirely true. You know, in the documentary,
there's kind of absolute there. But I see what
you're saying about increased fiber and multi
-nutrient and all this thing. Well, yeah, and
I see what you're saying about carnivore. I disagree,
but I understand. And they could have brought
all this information to the people. But I have
never seen, I mean, we hold debates on this pedestal.
I've never seen a debate where someone's won.
oh you know what i've totally changed my mind
now now you two shout each other for for three
hours thank you so much i'm gonna go and totally
change my life no it's absolute bullshit it's
an ego competition where they're massaging each
other um and it's fucking boring to watch and
you take away nothing so figure out where you
actually align and talk about that instead yeah
it's it's hard it's hard to watch and it's hard
to listen when so far right and so far left and
they're trying to find that middle they're just
there is no middle ground because and again back
to back to the internet the media the social
media stuff i i feel is a lot at fault here because
if i want to find an article that tells me that
sky is green i can find it there's there's information
on right and there's information on left depending
on how you want to feel and how you want to believe
You can find that information out there. Well,
this says this. Okay, I get that. Well, this
says this. Okay, I get that. But what about this?
Okay, so obviously we are not going to meet in
the middle here. Let's just cut our ties and
go our separate ways. Rather than sitting here
and sounding like a bunch of children, let's
just, well, okay, this is the way you feel. This
is the way I feel. See you later. You said it's
blue. I said it's green. But can we both agree
that we want it to be clean so our children don't
get horrendous respiratory diseases? Boom. There's
your commonality. Bingo. 100%. 100%. Beautiful.
All right. Well, I want to transition to Mustache
Mafia quickly before we go to some closing questions.
So you're wearing the shirt. Obviously, we're
in a profession where the mustache is revered.
So talk to me about the origin of that and how
people can get the products. The mustache, my
mustache, I grew my first one. Boy, I couldn't
even tell you how long ago it was. But, you know,
just as a joke, we're all going to grow handlebar
mustaches. Okay, so we all grew them. All right,
shave it off. I don't like dealing with it anymore.
The origin of the mustache for me stems back
to my dad. And I'll never remember or I'll never
forget. He was talking about going to the barber,
and he's at the barber, and the barber's cutting
his hair, cutting his hair. Next thing you know,
he switches to his mustache. My dad right now,
he's a giant beard, but he's always had a mustache.
Sometimes he shaves the beard off, but always
had a mustache for as long as I can remember.
And this barber switches from the hair and goes
to the mustache, and he starts, he didn't shave
it off, but starts trimming it above his lip.
Oh, he fucking flipped out. He said, what are
you doing? I'm just trimming your mustache up.
I didn't tell you to touch my mustache. This
mustache is older than you are. Blah, blah, blah.
It kind of stemmed from there. He's always had
a mustache his entire life. But since he could
grow a mustache, he's had one probably since
middle school. Who knows? But I had one going.
And then when we had our first born, Jack, in
2014. I told her, okay, when we have our kid,
because she hates it. She still hates it to this
day. I said, okay, I'll go shave it off. I went
and shaved it off and let it go, let it go, let
it go. Finally, a couple years later, I grew
it back. I think it was 2019. I grew it back.
Just for giggles, because I had shirts made before,
but not of this type. I went and had shirts made.
I said, you know what? Just for giggles, I'm
going to send off for a trademark. And I sent
off for a trademark on the Mustache Mafia and
it actually came back. It got accepted. So there's
a trademark on Mustache Mafia. So the unfortunate
part for her is she's stuck with it now. You
know, it's just it's just a thing. And I'm not
as far as getting product. I have I do have products,
but I am not very diligent at upkeeping or I'm
not a I'm not a social media marketing or I never.
really marketed myself um i don't really market
this i need to like i said i have i have stuff
for sale but um it's my my instagram is official
mustache mafia and uh again i i kind of started
it because it was back to the whole pussification
of everything going on like this is stupid man
grow a mustache be a man you've got balls and
testosterone let's fucking act like it um It's
just irritating to me to see the way that the
young men in America act. A friend of ours who
used to put on fights, she said it best, it's
just unapologetically masculine. It's all things
manly. If you're into hunting, if you're into
fishing, you don't necessarily have to have a
mustache to... Be in the mustache mafia or support
the mustache mafia. Just support man shit. You
know, even for women. I did the very first podcast
interview I did after the mustache mafia. You
don't you don't even have to be a man. Just if
you're a woman and you enjoy mustache rights
to get on in. I can't believe you said that.
I don't care if you if you don't like it. You
don't you don't have to look at my stuff. You
know, I don't like dancing around things. Well,
what if they don't like this? What if they don't
like that? I don't care. You don't like it, don't
buy it. You don't like it, don't look at it.
You don't like it, don't listen to me. I don't
care whether you like me or whether you don't.
I don't care. It makes no difference to me. I'm
not going to lose any sleep if I've got. A million
people said, oh, this guy, he's just a fucking,
he's a sexist, he's this, he's that. No, I'm
not. I'm not against women. I'm not against women's
rights. I believe that men should be men. Well,
it's interesting because the word toxic masculinity
was thrown around a lot. I think that best describes
the false masculinity. I mean, you're about 10
years younger than me, but our generation roughly
was sold when we were young. The boys don't cry,
rub some dirt in it, you know, revering these
bodybuilders. When you actually realize that,
no, if you watch the Band of Brothers, the real
men that speak in each of those episodes, they're
in tears because what they did for this country
and the people they lost and the memories they
brought home can crush a man, you know, but.
The other side is obviously that you become a
protector in your community. And I totally get
the projecting on a young girl that you need
to wear a dress and like dolls is also not a
healthy thing because there are, you know, young
women that can do a full spectrum of quote unquote
man shit. But so that's where I think that the
talk that the kind of faux masculinity conversation
is really dangerous. And I think it's swung so
far the other way, as you said, that people are
scared to talk about manliness at all. Is actually
where we need to be talking about the dangers
of masculinity is all these men, you know, in
this particular case that are fucking sticking
guns in their mouth because they believed in
this fairy tale of what a man is supposed to
be. And a man is supposed to be strong as is
a woman, but also kind and compassionate. And
there's no better example of that than a firefighter.
We do manly or womanly stuff when we're wearing
the uniform that. has to have courage and, you
know, be well prepared for. But we also have
to process the horrible shit that we see and
understand that it was kindness and compassion
that drove us to ever put a uniform on in the
first place. Absolutely. I mean, it's like you
said, you have to be able to deal with that.
And the unfortunate side of it is a lot of people
liked it. They just hang on to it. They hang
on to that. They don't let it go until it's too
late. And the unfortunate side of that is, like
you said, they're sticking guns in their mouths.
They're hanging themselves from rafters. It's
okay to express your feelings. That's fine. You
still are a man because of the actions that you
do. Just because you are distraught by something
that you saw. doesn't make you any less of of
what you are so um yeah but that that's like
i said it's back to i i feel like the the media
and the social media i feel is is number one
culprit here yeah well i heard i forget who it
was now but someone was saying that a lot of
this is also coming from from colleges and universities
and this is not you know something i've visibly
seen with my own eyes this is second -hand information
but it makes sense you know we know how many
people are experts in certain fields that have
never actually done the job they've gone from
you know being a student to being a professor
and they're don't get me wrong are phenomenal
people in education but with this you know pendulum
shift the other way This cancel culture is actually
stopping communication, which is not only, what's
the right word, discouraging conversations on
obesity, on, you know, combat and all these things
that make our country healthier and safer. But
they're also discouraging communications for
children, men and women to be able to talk about
how they're really feeling and therefore seek
help, you know, seek tribalism, seek community.
And it's very, very dangerous conversation. Yes,
they are vilifying, like you said, the conversations
of what's right, what's wrong. Apparently everything
is right now. It's okay to do this. It's okay
to do that. It's okay to do this. You can be
this. You can be that. You can do this. You can
do that. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not.
If you speak that this is wrong or this is the
right way or that's the right way or this is
the wrong way. Well, you're just an asshole now.
No, I'm not. I'm sorry that I'm telling you what
is the truth and that I'm not afraid to say what's
the truth. That's the problem is people, they
don't like hearing the truth and they don't want
to accept the truth. I've got a captain at the
firehouse. I remember when this new guy he hired
on and he got sent out to the east side of town,
which is where we were at. And he went back to
the downtown station and he told our battalion
chief, he said, man. Please don't send me out
east anymore. He's just kind of mean. So he got
brought into the office. He said, you're kind
of being a little bit of an asshole. I don't
know what you're talking about. He said, all
I require is that you're there and you do your
job. I am equally an asshole to everybody. And
when he says I'm equally an asshole, he's just
telling them the truth. He's telling them how
he feels. He's up front. He tells you what he
sees. This is what I expect. This is what you're
doing. People don't like to hear that. People
don't like to hear the truth, and people don't
like to hear what other people see or think of
them. Well, I don't know what to tell you. I
would rather you come straight to me and say,
hey, fuckhead, quit being an idiot. Well, how
am I being an idiot? Tell me how I'm being an
idiot. You know, if I am indeed being stupid
or doing something dumb, well, then we need to
address that. You know, whereas if you come to
somebody else and, hey, you're being stupid,
you're doing something dumb. Oh, my God, he's
so mean. He told me I'm being stupid. No, I'm
telling you that you're being stupid because
you're going to you're either going to get somebody
hurt or I'm sorry, you're just stupid. You know,
so it's it's you. People don't accept the truth.
they don't accept the truth they don't like being
told the truth and and for them it's it's people
just being assholes and you're not allowed to
do that why not yeah well i think especially
in the fire service you know we've got to maintain
those standards you know and i've seen that you
know in in i've talked about this a lot even
in our unions and certain you know departments
across the country they will oppose fitness standards
well you can't that's not fair you know you're
trying to get rid of everyone no not trying to
get with anyone if you found yourself deconditioned
there should be a one two year on -ramp program
to get you back to where you were absolutely
but if you're offended by being required to physically
perform in a job where your people's lives are
in your hands then you're in the wrong profession
i'm sorry but this is a you know this is not
And no disrespect to any accountants out there,
but if an accountant screws up, you know, you
mess up someone's bank balance or they pay too
much on their taxes. If we screw up... And as
with your brother, we go in to potentially rescue
a little two -year -old who's about to get burned,
and we fuck up, and now he has the life that
he has. So you can't have that hypersensitivity
in some of these professions where lives are
at stake. You just can't. But you can also act
professionally towards each other and not be
a complete a -hole either. Absolutely. And like
you said, you need to be physically able to complete
your tasks. And I feel like the fire service
needs to hold them to that standard. You are
here to do a physical job and potentially save
somebody's life, maybe even your own. How that's
not enough motivation alone to keep you in any
kind of physical form, I don't know. Because
if I know potentially it could be me not coming
out of there because of my lack of physical fitness.
I'm not okay with that. So I feel like the physical
side of things really needs to be upheld. Absolutely.
Well, Eddie, for people listening, you mentioned
about the Mustache Mafia site. Where else can
they find you online? Again, Instagram is just
Eddie Wineland. I think it's still got the blue
checkmark. I don't know. That's how you know
you got the right one. Yeah, so between that
and my Mustache Mafia page, that's where most
of my... Most of my stuff was posted. Brilliant.
Well, I want to thank you so much. It's been
such an interesting conversation. I truly feel
like of all the sports, MMA probably closest.
is the closest replica of the demands of the
fire service just because you can't say oh i'm
going to be running 100 meters in a straight
line or i'm going to be catching a ball you know
the diverse exactly so to hear your journey not
only into the martial arts you know your brother's
tragic story as well but your service in the
fire service i want to thank you so much for
being so generous with your time today absolutely
anytime james i've enjoyed it anytime