WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the

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first staffing software to be truly firefighter

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proof. Now you may be wondering why I have software

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as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical

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and mental health of the first responders, and

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I will tell you exactly why. For the first time,

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this is a staffing platform that also is able

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to integrate wellness information through core

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load tracking, exposures, and wearables integration.

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Now, of course, StationWise focuses on staffing

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and allows you to manage staffing, choose vacation

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picks, put in rules for leave and trades, and

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even deploying strike teams. But through the

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latest programming and AI automation, they have

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streamlined this process to free up battalion

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chiefs so they can focus on what they're supposed

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to be doing on the operational side and the fire

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ground. Now, StationWise is also able to monitor

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not only how many calls we've responded to in

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the shift, but the duration of the call, therefore

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the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring

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the sleep deprivation that degrades our health

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and performance. It's accessible not only through

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the computer, but also on Apple and Android devices,

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meaning that you can access it not only within

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the station itself, but outside as well. Now,

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one of the most powerful features of StationWise,

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in my opinion, is the ability to run reports.

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Therefore, for example, be able to see just how

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much money is being used on overtime that could

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actually be front -loaded for proactive staffing,

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as well as setting alarms knowing when you are

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hitting overtime parameters. And another important

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feature is the integration of other programs

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and software for payroll, training, reports,

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etc. Now, StationWise is trusted by numerous

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agencies in California, Texas, and Idaho. And

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if you want to hear the full story from the founder,

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who he himself is a son of a firefighter, listen

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to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you

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want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise

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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Geering, and this

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week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the

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show Navy SEAL veteran, former professional triathlete,

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and applied physiologist, Dr. Blaine Lintz. Now,

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in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,

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from breaking world records as a youth athlete,

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his journey into the SEAL teams, autism, compassion

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on the battlefield, his transition. Heat stroke

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in the tactical athlete, TBIs, the healing power

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of Ibogaine, and so much more. Now, before we

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get to this incredible conversation, as I say

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every week, please just take a moment. Go to

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whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you Blaine

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Lintz. Enjoy. Well, Blaine, I want to start by

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saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Cody

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for even making this connection. And I would

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love to get him on the show. So I'm sure he's

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listening to this now. So that's the next person

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I want to bring on. But that being said, I want

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to welcome you on to the Behind the Shield podcast

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today. Thanks, James. So where on planet Earth

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are we finding you this afternoon? I'm in Fort

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Mill, South Carolina. So I moved out. out to

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the South after having lived on the West Coast

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my entire life, about four and a half years ago

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for a PhD that I was doing at University of South

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Carolina. Well, let's start on the West Coast

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then. Tell me where you were born and tell me

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a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings. So I was

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born in Bellevue, Washington, so near Seattle,

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Seattle area. uh in 93 and yeah my my dad was

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in the navy um he was uh i think what would now

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be in it i'm not positive he's a software engineer

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so he after getting out he worked in software

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engineering he's been at nordstrom as an engineer

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and in their management for i think the last

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like 17 years My mom used to be a translator

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and then she became like an esthetician and working

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in cosmetics. And that's kind of what she does,

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I think, mostly for fun and for interaction with

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people now. And then I've also got a sister who

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just did her master's in public health and she's

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been working in cancer research for the last

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few years. What was your mom translating, which

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is the foreign language? Japanese. So I'm half

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Japanese. My mom's full and my dad's, my dad

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grew up in Detroit. He's like a white mutt. Because

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Lentz is an interesting surname. So do you know

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the origin of that? So I don't know a ton about

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it. I believe that Lentz is an Austrian name.

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But I think my, so my dad found out that who

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he was raised. The man who raised him as who

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we thought was his biological dad turned out

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to not actually be his biological dad. And I

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think by blood, he may have more French in him,

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but that's pretty much all I know. And is your

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mom first -generation immigrant here in the U

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.S.? Yeah, I think she came over probably around

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when she was 30. But her and my dad met while

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he was in the Navy. I think they met in Guam.

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So I don't know what my mom was doing in Guam

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at the time, but that's how they met. I actually

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got married in Guam. I was working in Japan for

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15 months. And that's like the tourist destination

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for the Japanese if they want to get outside

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the island and go somewhere sunny and beachy.

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So she may well have just been a tourist over

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there. Yeah. And whereabouts from Japan is she

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from? Tokyo. So I've got a grandma and cousin

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and uncle that live in Tokyo. So I actually,

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I just got married in Tokyo almost exactly a

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year ago now. And that was so my grandma could

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be there because she's kind of past being able

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to fly around. I think she's like 94 or something.

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Yeah, yeah. Besides that, though, I used to go

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like every summer to Japan. I went to school

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there over the summers for a few years when I

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was around like six to eight years old. But my

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parents got divorced after that. And then I kind

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of hadn't gone back to Japan for, you know, like

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15 years or something. I think it's always interesting

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when people have a lens on other... countries

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around the world, especially obviously if they've

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got family there. So for example, my English

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family too, my mom and my brother moved to Portugal

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and there's some amazing innovations in Portugal,

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like what they did with drug addiction, excuse

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me, addiction decriminalization in Portugal.

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They took their horrendous opioid crisis and

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reversed it completely by just putting it into

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the hands of the medical community, not the criminal

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community. um when you have traveled back and

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forth what are some of the things about japanese

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culture that you think maybe we should be looking

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at here in the us well you so you you've been

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to japan so you you you are aware of this but

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uh i mean i hadn't been for a long time and i

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used to go a lot but it was pretty mind -blowing

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how how much cleaner and safer it feels no matter

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where you go and i i really really appreciate

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that um i yeah i'm i'm a quiet person i'm not

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super social outgoing or loud so not someone

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who has any issue with people kind of keeping

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to themselves on public transportation and stuff

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like that. So I love that. And I love the culture

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around people taking care of their own trash

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and how despite there being no public trash cans

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almost anywhere, you could go to the biggest,

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busiest part of Tokyo and you're going to be

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hard pressed to find a piece of trash on the

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ground. I saw an article a while ago. that in

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japanese schools i don't know if it's all of

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them but certainly in in you know the examples

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that they were given the children clean their

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own school oh yeah that was how that was how

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it was for me when i was uh younger and any other

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the school food is is so much like better and

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healthier too um it's not like yeah it's not

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dog food or whatever um yeah it's pretty good

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and then at the end of the day you're cleaning

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and instead of you moving around classrooms the

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uh the teachers will will move classrooms and

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i feel like even the from what i can remember

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the the sort of recess time was a lot more active

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than what i was getting in the u .s I know the

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Japanese, I think it was in the 80s or 90s, there

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must have been some hint of some health kind

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of decline. And so they actually nationally looked

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at what a portion size would be and they controlled

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it, which is where you see a lot of the bento

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boxes and those kind of things, I believe. And

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then as you alluded to, the school served in

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Japanese food have to be made from scratch, scratch,

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the sources, everything. And you contrast that.

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I had Joel Salatin on a few weeks ago. I didn't

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realize, but those big Cisco trucks that come

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and bring all the processed shit to our schools

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in America, that's actually expired food. And

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that kind of food goes to our schools and our

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prisons. So you contrast those two systems where

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you got children having the pride in their own

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classrooms and being fed. good food and having

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a lot of activity in their school day versus

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processed food and PE programs being broken down.

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And then we wonder why those two cultures have

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very different health outcomes. Yeah, it's pretty

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interesting and I'm not too surprised. Well,

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speaking of exercise, what were you playing and

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doing as far as sport and exercise when you were

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in the school ages? i uh i've i've always approached

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uh any sort of activities i've done with a very

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one of my strongest autistic tendencies is a

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hyper fixation on a certain thing and and uh

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when i was younger my i know my my parents at

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minimum had books on how to deal with a child

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with autism and it's My sister's really outgoing

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and was popular in high school. So I know it

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wasn't her that they were concerned about. And

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so I had a lot more issues. I had a lot of like

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issues with social interaction when I was younger

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that aren't as big of a deal now. But I would

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fixate on like specific activity and go full

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power on that for a couple of years. And once

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I started to realize I wasn't. progressing as

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fast as i would like to um i kind of just dumped

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it cold turkey and moved on to something else

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so i did a bunch of of random or sort of random

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things i i was pretty good at skateboarding i

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was pretty good at inline skating uh table tennis

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tennis um and i also played a few different instruments

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for probably eight years. Uh, I played an alto

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and tenor saxophone and clarinet. Um, and then

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once I got to middle school, I kind of found

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cycling and I'd never been like fit at anything

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since I was like eight years old and swimming.

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I was, I was okay for an eight year old swimmer.

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Um, I was a little bit competitive, but yeah,

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after stopping that, I I gained a bunch of weight.

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I was kind of a fat kid going into middle school.

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And I mean, most of the negativity that came

00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:30.480
out of it was me putting that on myself. But

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I didn't like it. And I didn't like being fat.

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So I wanted to do something about it. So yeah,

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I found cycling and pretty quickly realized that

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I had a natural inclination towards. being good

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at cycling and I hadn't really been shown any

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promise in any other endurance sports, but I,

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I mean, some of the first times riding a bike

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seriously, I was, you know, could, could already

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tell I was stronger than people who were actually

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like racing on teams at that age. Um, so I got

00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:07.879
into that, did, uh, a two day, like 210 mile

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ride, Seattle to Portland. Uh, it's really. big

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bike ride that gets done every year. And I did

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that when I was like 12 years old. And after

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that was like, okay, like I definitely have a

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knack for some categories of endurance. So going

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into high school, I started swimming again because

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I had swam when I was younger. And then I was

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like, okay, well, I'm swimming and biking. And

00:14:33.629 --> 00:14:41.049
then ran like a 24 minute four mile in in freshman

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year of high school. And that was like the fastest

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I'd ever run before. And it's, it's not like

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mind blowing fast or anything. It's not going

00:14:48.669 --> 00:14:52.049
to get you to, to D1 running or anything like

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that, but it was decent. So I started doing triathlon.

00:14:55.570 --> 00:14:59.590
Um, and yeah, again, realized that I wasn't going

00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:02.389
to be great at anything short. So I started pushing

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longer and longer distances. And I think I was

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the second youngest person to ever do a half

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Ironman. So I did my first one when I was 14.

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And then I did another one when I was 15. And

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I was on track to be able to turn professional

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pretty soon after that, but still felt like my

00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:22.210
progress was kind of slowing. So I made a shift

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over to ultra marathon running. That's definitely

00:15:25.610 --> 00:15:29.029
where I found the most success relative to other

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people, just because there's no other 16 -year

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-olds that were doing what I was doing. And so

00:15:34.750 --> 00:15:40.710
it kind of culminated with breaking the, it's

00:15:40.710 --> 00:15:42.870
technically considered a world best, but 100

00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:47.110
miles in 18 hours and 26 minutes and 113 and

00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:49.730
a quarter miles in 24 hours. And I did that when

00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:53.090
I was 16 around a track at the University of

00:15:53.090 --> 00:15:57.450
Washington. And it's pretty much a month before

00:15:57.450 --> 00:16:01.570
that was when I kind of found out about the Navy

00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:05.250
SEALs and started considering it as a possible

00:16:05.250 --> 00:16:09.970
route for what to do next. And yeah, as soon

00:16:09.970 --> 00:16:12.029
as I did that 24 hour run, I was just like onto

00:16:12.029 --> 00:16:16.669
training for buds. When you look back now with

00:16:16.669 --> 00:16:19.149
this lens, you have an exercise physiology and

00:16:19.149 --> 00:16:23.559
neuroscience. What were, whether it was the kind

00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.960
of emotional elements of your upbringing and

00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:31.600
or any kind of genetic gifts that you had as

00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.220
far as a physiology side that allowed you to

00:16:34.220 --> 00:16:36.919
excel at such a high level at such a young age?

00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:42.700
I truthfully think I had so much insecurity because

00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:48.450
of being fat and socially awkward that I... often

00:16:48.450 --> 00:16:52.750
use the ultra like I mean I was you know training

00:16:52.750 --> 00:16:56.590
30 hours a week in high school and I think I

00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:59.950
was just kind of using it as an escape from dealing

00:16:59.950 --> 00:17:03.610
with other stuff and you know like the thought

00:17:03.610 --> 00:17:06.700
process was kind of like well if I'm if i'm breaking

00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:10.059
world records and i'm i'm a high level athlete

00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:12.640
like training a bunch then like i'm not a loser

00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.799
like that was kind of the thought process and

00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.599
i was like well if i can do more of these hard

00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:21.019
things i can um you know just prove to myself

00:17:21.019 --> 00:17:23.240
and to everyone else that i'm not a loser which

00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.579
you know i heard navy seal training was the hardest

00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:28.720
in the world so i was like okay well those guys

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.869
definitely aren't losers um And so there was

00:17:32.869 --> 00:17:35.329
that. And then I think that combined with me

00:17:35.329 --> 00:17:38.769
not being exceptionally gifted when it came to

00:17:38.769 --> 00:17:44.089
any sort of sport that you'd see in D1. So I

00:17:44.089 --> 00:17:46.690
wasn't, you know, I wasn't crushing 5Ks in cross

00:17:46.690 --> 00:17:49.490
country. I think my fastest time ever was like

00:17:49.490 --> 00:17:52.490
1650. So it's like, it's okay, but it's not,

00:17:52.569 --> 00:17:55.549
it's not going to get you to be a good college

00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:59.930
runner whatsoever. And so Yeah, because of all

00:17:59.930 --> 00:18:02.130
the insecurity. I knew that I could run further

00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.950
and I believed that I had something a little

00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:09.650
bit unique when it came to a mental toughness

00:18:09.650 --> 00:18:13.789
or aspect of it that allowed me to do some of

00:18:13.789 --> 00:18:16.230
these hard runs. And then I just, you know, believed

00:18:16.230 --> 00:18:20.819
in myself. It's become very apparent now through

00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:23.700
almost 1 ,200 conversations, especially some

00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.660
SMEs like Jake Clark that have really opened

00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:29.500
my eyes on how many of us that put a uniform

00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:33.920
on have some struggles early in life. And if

00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.240
they're left and they're ignored and they're

00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.700
pushed down, it can be a fracture to our foundation.

00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.980
But if they're addressed, they can be an asset.

00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:44.980
It could be resilience. When you look back now,

00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.059
post -Ibergame, which obviously we'll get to

00:18:47.059 --> 00:18:49.940
as well. Were there elements of your early life

00:18:49.940 --> 00:18:52.000
that you think contributed to some of the struggles

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:59.539
later on? I think the social awkwardness and

00:18:59.539 --> 00:19:05.119
the being fat thing really did it. My parents

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:07.980
getting divorced when I was eight and there being

00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:11.380
lots of fighting in the house. I mean, it was

00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:15.859
kind of insane for a bit. I don't know how it

00:19:15.859 --> 00:19:18.619
impacted me, but you know, my, my wife's a therapist

00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:23.779
and she says probably didn't help. Um, so yeah,

00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.220
there, yeah, all those things kind of, kind of

00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:28.559
work together. But besides that, like I had a,

00:19:28.660 --> 00:19:31.720
you know, I, I grew up in a pretty wealthy area.

00:19:31.779 --> 00:19:34.779
My parents weren't super wealthy, but, um, I

00:19:34.779 --> 00:19:37.099
definitely didn't have like a rough upbringing.

00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:40.880
Yeah. Well, they say you don't compare trauma.

00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:42.720
And I think this is it. I've had people that.

00:19:43.069 --> 00:19:45.849
were literally boy soldiers in sierra leone and

00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:47.829
i've had people that were simply the middle child

00:19:47.829 --> 00:19:50.829
that felt unloved and i actually ended up seeing

00:19:50.829 --> 00:19:54.390
them with their parents at sadly a celebration

00:19:54.390 --> 00:19:57.869
of life and i saw exactly the trauma there there

00:19:57.869 --> 00:20:00.269
was an absence of love in that relationship two

00:20:00.269 --> 00:20:03.130
very very different traumas but both were very

00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:06.890
impactful in those people's lives when when you

00:20:06.890 --> 00:20:09.029
reflect back now it's interesting is that i think

00:20:09.029 --> 00:20:10.849
it's an einstein quote unless the internet is

00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:14.190
um Judging a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

00:20:14.430 --> 00:20:17.970
So, you know, obviously there is no, you know,

00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:20.089
one size fits all when it comes to as you're

00:20:20.089 --> 00:20:22.509
talking about athletics and exercise, but also

00:20:22.509 --> 00:20:26.730
academics. Was that traditional teaching environment

00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:29.470
something that you resonated with, with, you

00:20:29.470 --> 00:20:32.670
know, the level of autism that you had? Or was

00:20:32.670 --> 00:20:35.069
academics a struggle because it didn't resonate?

00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:42.009
academics were a struggle because I was, so everything

00:20:42.009 --> 00:20:44.470
I've done because of the hyper focus on things

00:20:44.470 --> 00:20:47.829
I am interested in meant that I just didn't allocate

00:20:47.829 --> 00:20:51.390
any resources to other things. And so I know

00:20:51.390 --> 00:20:56.569
that, um, at least by IQ, I'm very, very intelligent,

00:20:56.609 --> 00:21:01.470
but, um, so, so school, you know, I could, I

00:21:01.470 --> 00:21:03.930
could put minimal effort into school at a pretty.

00:21:05.069 --> 00:21:08.150
you know, top 100 in the U .S. high school, and

00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:13.369
I was still performing decently well. I wasn't

00:21:13.369 --> 00:21:15.589
setting myself up to go to Harvard or anything,

00:21:15.769 --> 00:21:19.950
but I would have been fine going to a decent

00:21:19.950 --> 00:21:25.750
university if I wanted to. But, yeah, I think

00:21:25.750 --> 00:21:31.170
I had a hard time staying engaged with it. You

00:21:31.170 --> 00:21:34.690
know, early on in any sort of class, I would...

00:21:34.809 --> 00:21:37.390
I would be a very high performer and then I'd

00:21:37.390 --> 00:21:39.589
lose interest and then I'd just stop applying

00:21:39.589 --> 00:21:43.869
myself and all my focus would go into training

00:21:43.869 --> 00:21:45.609
or something that I thought was going to be more

00:21:45.609 --> 00:21:48.529
valuable. And at the time in high school, I was

00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:50.470
confident I was never going to college. And I

00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:52.769
knew I definitely am not going to college after

00:21:52.769 --> 00:21:56.190
high school. I was going to go be an ABC also.

00:21:57.309 --> 00:22:02.890
Fuck this school stuff. So yeah, that's kind

00:22:02.890 --> 00:22:06.210
of where I was at with that. I just think it's

00:22:06.210 --> 00:22:08.349
an interesting conversation. I was a very tactile

00:22:08.349 --> 00:22:11.289
learner. So straight C student in high school,

00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:14.089
you know, felt like I was not intelligent whatsoever,

00:22:14.190 --> 00:22:17.509
which is still partly true. But when I went to

00:22:17.509 --> 00:22:20.170
the fire academy and, you know, EMT and ultimately

00:22:20.170 --> 00:22:22.890
paramedic school, it was the opposite straight,

00:22:22.970 --> 00:22:24.650
you know, pretty much straight A's because it

00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:26.869
made sense to me. It was real world application

00:22:26.869 --> 00:22:30.000
of math and science and all these things. So

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.779
then you have someone like you said, you let

00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:33.460
yourself as hyper -focused that probably need

00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:35.880
to be challenged in certain ways so that you

00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:38.839
didn't get bored. So when we look at this kind

00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.140
of standardized testing, one size fits all element

00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:44.559
that we have here in the US and you compare it

00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.819
with Finland, for example, I think there's a

00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:49.740
lot to learn because how many of these young

00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:52.359
men and women. could have had such an amazing

00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.240
potential but either the the learning style the

00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.960
lack of um the kind of holistic resources around

00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:01.099
that child or in your case maybe not challenging

00:23:01.099 --> 00:23:03.539
enough because they've been put in a pigeonhole

00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:05.680
because of their age you know i think there's

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.980
so many opportunities for us to look at the way

00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:10.200
that we deliver education and maybe you know

00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.420
let it evolve yeah definitely i i agree and i

00:23:14.420 --> 00:23:17.779
think yeah i mean you know during my phd i i

00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:20.619
did a lot of teaching of of undergraduates and

00:23:20.619 --> 00:23:25.380
some graduate students and, um, yeah, it was,

00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.180
you know, you're kind of wondering like, what,

00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.059
why are you doing school right now? This just

00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:33.480
doesn't seem like the right, right time and right

00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.460
field or whatever for, for you to do it. And

00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:39.440
I mean, yeah, there's just such a strong societal

00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:43.630
push to go into university right after. Right

00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:45.730
after you're done with high school and who cares

00:23:45.730 --> 00:23:47.369
if it's not what you're into, you know, you gotta,

00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:50.309
you gotta grind in your twenties so you can have

00:23:50.309 --> 00:23:54.710
a good life later sort of attitude. I never understood

00:23:54.710 --> 00:23:56.670
my wife, my wife, my wife just went through a

00:23:56.670 --> 00:23:59.650
doctor of optometry. She's an optometrist now.

00:23:59.809 --> 00:24:02.509
And over and over again, when you hear about

00:24:02.509 --> 00:24:05.150
all the high level, you know, math and some of

00:24:05.150 --> 00:24:08.630
the kind of real micro elements of biology, for

00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:11.180
example. the question is well why are we doing

00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:13.599
all these classes before you get to the thing

00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:15.980
that is actually actually pertinent for the the

00:24:15.980 --> 00:24:18.480
occupation and there's always this thing well

00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.200
it's a test to see if you can get through those

00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:22.740
classes if you if you can stick it out and it

00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:24.559
just never made sense to me that's a horrible

00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.920
explanation for it like why would you not expose

00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.759
someone give them more real real world you know

00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:33.359
exposure clinicals that kind of thing and then

00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:35.940
yeah and allow to see if is this actually working

00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:37.740
in the real world is this what you want to do

00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.480
But to do, you know, two, three years of, you

00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:43.680
know, high level math to become an optometrist,

00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.079
we're using technology and it's, you know, it's

00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.819
really high school level math that she's using.

00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:51.839
You know, I think it's another thing that we

00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.019
could re -evaluate because it would make college

00:24:54.019 --> 00:24:55.880
a lot cheaper for these young people if they

00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:58.559
didn't have to do these insane needless classes

00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.539
if they had no application for their specific

00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:05.450
major. Yeah, there's a lot of... tradition, I

00:25:05.450 --> 00:25:08.650
feel like, or traditional attitudes about what

00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:11.710
you should do, even if it doesn't make the most

00:25:11.710 --> 00:25:16.029
sense. Well, you mentioned about the burning

00:25:16.029 --> 00:25:19.369
desire to go into the SEALs. So where did that

00:25:19.369 --> 00:25:21.369
interest in the military come from and then why

00:25:21.369 --> 00:25:26.809
the SEALs specifically? So when I was a junior

00:25:26.809 --> 00:25:34.029
in high school, I had a friend, Daniel, at at

00:25:34.029 --> 00:25:36.869
my high school who was a coach at a CrossFit

00:25:36.869 --> 00:25:40.789
gym. And he started like, you know, he was obsessed

00:25:40.789 --> 00:25:43.150
with CrossFit. I think he's still into it. But,

00:25:43.150 --> 00:25:45.769
you know, there were some things about it that

00:25:45.769 --> 00:25:48.289
sounded cool at the time. And I still think some

00:25:48.289 --> 00:25:53.609
parts of it are cool. But, you know, it just

00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:55.670
sounded appealing, right? You push yourself really

00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:59.029
hard in some of these workouts. And that's undisputable.

00:25:59.109 --> 00:26:01.900
Like the workouts can be really hard. Um, so

00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:04.640
I thought that was cool. Um, I thought some of

00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:08.500
the ideas around it, uh, sounded cool with, you

00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:11.319
know, the, the methodology of training. And this

00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.599
is when I didn't really know anything, but, um,

00:26:14.859 --> 00:26:18.359
the CrossFit gym he was a coach at was owned

00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.339
by, uh, a former Navy SEAL, Dan Cirillo, who

00:26:22.339 --> 00:26:26.400
was a guest on your podcast. And, um, I. i ended

00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.319
up talking to him a little bit about it you know

00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.019
he knew i was doing like my my big runs and stuff

00:26:32.019 --> 00:26:35.700
and and i kind of told him like you know this

00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:39.299
has been a thought on my mind uh and he he ended

00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:40.980
up telling me about it and he said like there

00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:44.359
there are like some really insane people that

00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.240
go into the seal teams and and that's definitely

00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.500
true but it you know was the first time i'd even

00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:52.940
heard about like this sort of thing and there

00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:55.700
was a lot of ex exaggeration or, you know, I

00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:58.099
think it's confabulation from a combination of

00:26:58.099 --> 00:27:01.119
brain injuries and, and personalities and stuff.

00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.180
But, you know, he would talk about just insane,

00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:08.920
insane freaks of nature that were in the SEAL

00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:11.079
teams and then some of the operations they would

00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:14.200
do and just how crazy it was. It sounded awesome.

00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:18.660
And, you know, he was pretty clear, like it's

00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:23.240
the hardest military training in the world. which

00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:28.140
is arguable. But that appealed to me a lot. So

00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:33.059
I thought it sounded badass. And I really thought

00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:36.740
that that was going to make me not feel insecure

00:27:36.740 --> 00:27:40.180
anymore. That was my path to not being a loser

00:27:40.180 --> 00:27:44.160
for life. And if I have kids and grandkids, then

00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:49.289
they'll be proud of me when I'm older. Jumping

00:27:49.289 --> 00:27:51.529
forward, because this is a theme, we're going

00:27:51.529 --> 00:27:53.650
to get into your service and then some of the

00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:55.230
other things that you've done post -service.

00:27:55.410 --> 00:27:58.569
But so many people, if you watch The Weight of

00:27:58.569 --> 00:28:01.769
Gold, for example, a documentary on the Olympians,

00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:05.549
we're chasing this feeling of being good enough.

00:28:05.849 --> 00:28:08.829
I was the same. I wasn't a fat kid. I was a skinny,

00:28:08.869 --> 00:28:12.539
tiny kid. And I always felt... insecure. I always

00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:14.559
felt small. I always felt vulnerable. And even

00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:18.059
now at 51 with a lifetime of strength and conditioning

00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:20.299
and martial arts training, I still feel like

00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:22.140
anyone in the grocery store could kick my ass.

00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.680
It's still a little voice in my head. But chasing

00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:27.559
that external validation, I look back now, I

00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:29.220
did stunts, I did firefighting, I did all kinds

00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:32.640
of things that are air quotes, manly, masculine

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.039
professions. And none of it really seemed to

00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:39.930
satisfy that imposter syndrome in my head. What

00:28:39.930 --> 00:28:43.390
was it that finally told you that you were enough,

00:28:43.470 --> 00:28:45.349
not negating all the things that you've done,

00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:48.410
but finally realized that you didn't have to

00:28:48.410 --> 00:28:52.609
prove to anyone else who you actually were? I

00:28:52.609 --> 00:28:56.130
think when I separated from the Navy in 2017,

00:28:56.369 --> 00:29:00.890
I had a bit of, you know, as most people do,

00:29:00.930 --> 00:29:03.589
I'm sure, leaving any sort of first responder

00:29:03.589 --> 00:29:05.930
service or the military or whatever when you've

00:29:05.930 --> 00:29:10.049
been sort of. isolated in this community and

00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:12.410
then you get out and you have to find something

00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:14.769
else to do and maybe something else to kind of

00:29:14.769 --> 00:29:18.410
rework your identity around um it comes with

00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:23.390
some issues and i think i spent the next couple

00:29:23.390 --> 00:29:28.069
years trying to find something that um you know

00:29:28.069 --> 00:29:30.690
was just something to do like that was prestigious

00:29:30.690 --> 00:29:33.980
next and then i you know as soon as i got pushing

00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:36.180
down that route i would figure out no this isn't

00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:38.960
really what i want to do and i'm not gonna do

00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:43.039
that um but i ended up finding exercise physiology

00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:47.339
and i got so excited that you could study exercise

00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:51.700
i just thought it was was awesome because i loved

00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:54.740
exercise and it just it came came to me really

00:29:54.740 --> 00:29:57.220
really quickly because i already had a lot of

00:29:57.220 --> 00:30:00.819
practical understanding um from doing so many

00:30:00.819 --> 00:30:04.759
different things and under the umbrella of exercise.

00:30:05.740 --> 00:30:09.220
And so all I needed was to just put a name to

00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:12.160
different metabolic processes and stuff like

00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.200
that. So it came really easily. And I realized

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.519
that I loved learning about exercise. I love

00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.019
talking about it, researching it, whatever. And

00:30:21.019 --> 00:30:24.339
so that ended up being what I wanted to do next.

00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:27.420
And it kind of felt like it was the first time

00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:31.490
where I was doing something that... You know,

00:30:31.509 --> 00:30:33.329
I was doing it because I actually enjoyed doing

00:30:33.329 --> 00:30:36.789
it. And I didn't just like suck the fun out of

00:30:36.789 --> 00:30:39.789
it right away by trying to be the best at it.

00:30:39.849 --> 00:30:43.670
Even though like, you know, I do want to know

00:30:43.670 --> 00:30:45.750
my stuff when it comes to the field that I'm

00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:49.029
educated in. But yeah, I definitely don't have

00:30:49.029 --> 00:30:52.269
the same pressure around it. And then, yeah,

00:30:52.349 --> 00:30:56.869
this past year since doing Ibogaine for the UT

00:30:56.869 --> 00:31:00.980
Austin clinical trial in January. I've kind of

00:31:00.980 --> 00:31:04.700
used that as a springboard to really trying to

00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:08.059
rework the way I think about motivation and the

00:31:08.059 --> 00:31:10.099
things that I'm doing and why I'm doing them.

00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:13.819
And so it's an ongoing process. And I wouldn't

00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:18.420
say I've completely achieved it yet. But I think

00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:22.859
I definitely have a better sense of why I'm doing

00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:25.660
things. And I think the reasons are more authentic

00:31:25.660 --> 00:31:29.759
now than they used to be. When I first transitioned

00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.380
out, I volunteered for a fire department for

00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:35.900
a heartbeat locally. And it just wasn't the right

00:31:35.900 --> 00:31:38.559
fit. Again, I felt like I was like a ride along

00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.019
student rather than a member of the team. And

00:31:41.019 --> 00:31:42.619
then I kind of took a step back and like, well,

00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:44.940
am I really making a difference there? And the

00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.799
answer was really not, you know, any event that

00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.079
didn't require a huge amount of extra hands.

00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.440
And then I was like, well, what am I doing it

00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:54.700
for? And then I realized there was an element

00:31:54.700 --> 00:31:57.000
of that, that ego, that identity still that I

00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:00.299
was hanging on to. And so I think when I realized

00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:03.579
that I'd finally turned that corner was that

00:32:03.579 --> 00:32:05.859
I could tell people that I'm a podcaster. Because

00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:07.619
when you say you're a firefighter or a SEAL,

00:32:07.660 --> 00:32:09.480
people are like, oh, wow, that's what you do.

00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.500
When you tell them you're a podcaster at 51 years

00:32:12.500 --> 00:32:16.599
old, it's a whole different response. But that's

00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:18.460
when you realize, okay, I don't care what other

00:32:18.460 --> 00:32:20.200
people think. And then you also realize, well,

00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.839
the mission is the same. I'm still trying to

00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:26.000
make. help people be better, help people suffer

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.940
less, help people hopefully not die. So the mission

00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:32.920
is exactly the same, but the uniform is different

00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:35.700
now, the costume. Did you have an element of

00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:37.500
that yourself that you realized you're kind of

00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:40.319
on this same path? It's just a different identity

00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.920
now? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't have like a

00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:50.900
clean answer to give you for that. Yeah, I guess,

00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:54.520
can you rephrase the question a little bit? When

00:32:54.520 --> 00:32:57.119
you look at someone and say, I am a SEAL or I

00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:59.920
was a SEAL, that's an easy thing to say as an

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:01.640
identity piece. You're still clinging to that

00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:08.319
part that you were strong, that you were capable,

00:33:08.500 --> 00:33:11.779
that you were able, that you were serving. But

00:33:11.779 --> 00:33:14.660
some of these other exercise physiologists, podcasters,

00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:18.019
it's a little less front -facing, as it were,

00:33:18.059 --> 00:33:21.970
as far as the mission. Have you been able to

00:33:21.970 --> 00:33:24.509
turn a corner now and separate from the military

00:33:24.509 --> 00:33:27.109
part as far as identity and actually settle into

00:33:27.109 --> 00:33:31.029
the identity as a researcher? Oh, yeah. It's

00:33:31.029 --> 00:33:35.089
tricky right now because I've been done with

00:33:35.089 --> 00:33:39.549
my PhD for like four months and I haven't started

00:33:39.549 --> 00:33:44.589
working again yet. So that's kind of tricky.

00:33:44.789 --> 00:33:47.410
And I think in a lot of ways, you know, my...

00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:52.190
PhD research was all or primarily focused on

00:33:52.190 --> 00:33:56.990
tactical populations and improving performance.

00:33:57.250 --> 00:34:01.009
And so I was definitely leveraging my background

00:34:01.009 --> 00:34:04.190
quite a bit. But I think one of the things that

00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:06.769
made transitioning out of the SEAL teams easier

00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:10.929
for me was that I was only in for six years.

00:34:11.110 --> 00:34:14.690
I didn't really, I don't think I ever really

00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:18.179
changed. my identity a whole lot to conform to

00:34:18.179 --> 00:34:22.260
that i you know i didn't i'm not like a big drinker

00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:25.960
party or anything like that so when um you know

00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.019
i didn't like start doing that in the seal team

00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:30.739
just because it was a big uh part of the culture

00:34:30.739 --> 00:34:33.820
and yeah i just didn't really i'm not great at

00:34:33.820 --> 00:34:36.079
like conforming to anything socially i think

00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:38.579
it just doesn't sound great to me and it feels

00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:41.599
fake and i also just don't like doing things

00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:44.210
that i don't find enjoyable or I find it actually

00:34:44.210 --> 00:34:49.050
unenjoyable. So yeah, I haven't had a ton of

00:34:49.050 --> 00:34:53.949
issues with that identity piece. But yeah, I'm

00:34:53.949 --> 00:34:56.309
happy with where I'm at because it's kind of

00:34:56.309 --> 00:34:58.550
like I've gotten to combine some of that experience

00:34:58.550 --> 00:35:02.150
and I still get to talk about it a little bit

00:35:02.150 --> 00:35:05.309
and still get to benefit or give back to that

00:35:05.309 --> 00:35:09.170
community. But also, yeah, I have been able to

00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:11.849
really get into some of my scientific research.

00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:18.239
and start viewing benefiting the special operations

00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.760
or tactical population community from an academic

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:24.739
perspective and what I can do now in this new

00:35:24.739 --> 00:35:30.019
situation to give back. Well, you mentioned about

00:35:30.019 --> 00:35:32.440
the high level of endurance athleticism that

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:35.519
you had prior to the teams. What elements of

00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:38.760
your upbringing served you well? in you know

00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.199
buds and selection uh whether it's the physical

00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:50.659
side and or the mental side i think the biggest

00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:53.659
thing truthfully that all that preparation did

00:35:53.659 --> 00:36:00.980
for me was i had experienced really really low

00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:04.380
points already and i knew what it felt like to

00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:07.530
want to quit something and then you know not

00:36:07.530 --> 00:36:12.789
um you know a lot of people go to buds saying

00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:15.010
that they're never gonna quit and i was even

00:36:15.010 --> 00:36:17.030
at the time i thought that was goofy because

00:36:17.030 --> 00:36:19.789
like you don't know you haven't done it right

00:36:19.789 --> 00:36:23.289
like you just don't know and no one goes there

00:36:23.289 --> 00:36:26.429
saying they think they are gonna quit um or most

00:36:26.429 --> 00:36:29.309
people don't but uh you know there is a shift

00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:31.789
that happens at some point for some people and

00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:34.159
that that leads to them quitting. And so how

00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.280
do I know that that's not going to happen for

00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:38.800
me? So I think I had some of that humility around

00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:40.679
it just because I had already experienced what

00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.980
it felt like to want to quit. I'd really, really

00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:48.900
think about that feeling a lot and just kind

00:36:48.900 --> 00:36:51.760
of try to tailor my expectations of Bud's to

00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.840
that experience and kind of give myself the expectation

00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:57.179
that I was going to feel that low through it.

00:36:57.539 --> 00:37:00.679
So in that sense, I was mentally prepared for

00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:04.119
that. I also knew that I had great mentorship

00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:07.239
too. So I had good expectations going in about

00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.420
what BUDS was like. I felt like I had already

00:37:10.420 --> 00:37:14.219
got some good exposure to the type of experience

00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:17.079
that BUDS was. But ultimately, you can't prepare

00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.119
yourself for six months of BUDS day after day

00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:24.239
and all the chafing, the physical discomfort

00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.960
and all that stuff that comes along with it.

00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:28.659
You just don't know how you're going to respond

00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:31.929
after that long. But I did know that Because

00:37:31.929 --> 00:37:36.389
I had such a extensive background of endurance

00:37:36.389 --> 00:37:40.269
volume that I felt pretty confident I wasn't

00:37:40.269 --> 00:37:42.070
going to develop any sort of overuse injury.

00:37:42.530 --> 00:37:46.090
And, you know, if you're fit enough and you don't

00:37:46.090 --> 00:37:49.150
quit and you don't get an overuse injury, then,

00:37:49.150 --> 00:37:52.070
you know, you're probably good. There's like

00:37:52.070 --> 00:37:54.130
pulmonary edema that happens for some people

00:37:54.130 --> 00:37:57.809
commonly in Hell Week. But I, you know, that's

00:37:57.809 --> 00:37:59.590
kind of just one of those things. Hopefully you

00:37:59.590 --> 00:38:04.809
don't get it. Um, the part that I wasn't prepared

00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:12.510
for was I, I didn't really expect how difficult

00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:16.289
it was going to be to not be so, you know, I'm

00:38:16.289 --> 00:38:18.929
not the average personality type of people who

00:38:18.929 --> 00:38:23.010
go into the SEAL teams. And, um, you know, it

00:38:23.010 --> 00:38:25.389
definitely showed in buds. Like I had a couple

00:38:25.389 --> 00:38:28.230
of close friends, but, but to most people, they,

00:38:28.329 --> 00:38:31.900
they thought I was like weird. Um, you know,

00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:33.960
yeah, it was just kind of like, kind of, kind

00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:37.760
of stupid now that I look back on it, but at

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.539
the time it was pretty uncomfortable and it kind

00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:42.420
of sucked. So, um, that part was actually harder

00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:45.019
than, you know, the, the typical mental and physical

00:38:45.019 --> 00:38:46.920
struggles that people deal with going through

00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:50.400
buds. Well, I think that, that underlines, you

00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.260
know, the, the thing that keeps us going is that

00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:54.420
cohesion is that shared sufferings, you know,

00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:57.210
forging that team. But if you. during selection

00:38:57.210 --> 00:38:59.570
feel like you're not part of that team for whatever

00:38:59.570 --> 00:39:02.250
reason personality type or performance or whatever

00:39:02.250 --> 00:39:04.809
it is i can see how that would make it even more

00:39:04.809 --> 00:39:08.190
challenging to get through yeah yeah and i still

00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:10.889
had you know i wasn't like hated or anything

00:39:10.889 --> 00:39:14.030
and i still had friends in it but i just i did

00:39:14.030 --> 00:39:16.110
have lots of people on the period i was writing

00:39:16.110 --> 00:39:23.360
that i was weird so I can relate. All right.

00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.179
But then where did you find yourself deployed

00:39:25.179 --> 00:39:30.599
over those six years? So first deployment was

00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.280
to United Arab Emirates. It was kind of a joint

00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.860
training deployment where we'd go around to different

00:39:38.860 --> 00:39:41.920
Gulf Coast countries like Oman, Qatar, Kuwait,

00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:46.619
Bahrain, and spend a couple of weeks to a little

00:39:46.619 --> 00:39:49.300
bit longer than that there working with other,

00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.420
you know. whether it's like police forces or,

00:39:52.420 --> 00:39:55.619
or special operations forces or, or whatever.

00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:00.619
Um, and doing exercises with them. Um, that,

00:40:00.739 --> 00:40:02.539
that was kind of that deployment. So it wasn't

00:40:02.539 --> 00:40:05.820
a combat deployment. It wasn't as, you know,

00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:10.460
some of it was kind of like a vacation. Um, it

00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:14.639
was fine. I didn't, I, it was, uh, the first,

00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:18.019
first two years of me being a SEAL were pretty

00:40:18.019 --> 00:40:25.510
shit. When I got to the SEAL team, I was 19 years

00:40:25.510 --> 00:40:29.309
old. So not only was I awkward, but I didn't

00:40:29.309 --> 00:40:31.030
really like to drink. I wasn't old enough to

00:40:31.030 --> 00:40:34.809
drink. And I just didn't get along with the platoon

00:40:34.809 --> 00:40:39.750
that I was in. And I think some combination of

00:40:39.750 --> 00:40:42.710
me struggling to find motivation to do the job

00:40:42.710 --> 00:40:46.420
and... not getting along socially with the platoon

00:40:46.420 --> 00:40:50.159
made it really, really difficult. I kind of felt

00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:53.159
sorry for myself for like six months and it was

00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:55.500
probably on the verge of getting kicked out of

00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:58.199
the platoon. And then eventually, you know, I

00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.500
snapped out of it and I started training really

00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:04.940
hard physically and getting in good shape. It

00:41:04.940 --> 00:41:07.880
kind of burned the rest of that deployment cycle.

00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:10.500
But after I got to a new platoon, after coming

00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:14.619
back from that UAE deployment, it was a completely

00:41:14.619 --> 00:41:16.599
different story. I had a great time with that

00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:19.780
platoon. I was really fit. I prepared really

00:41:19.780 --> 00:41:22.739
well for all the training blocks we did. And

00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:27.860
it was a much more positive experience. But the

00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:31.889
other thing that kind of... Made it easier to

00:41:31.889 --> 00:41:34.869
take that preparation seriously as we had heard

00:41:34.869 --> 00:41:37.730
that for that second deployment that we were

00:41:37.730 --> 00:41:41.869
going to be going to Iraq. And we, you know,

00:41:41.869 --> 00:41:49.110
during the workup period there. Fuck, I can't

00:41:49.110 --> 00:41:52.849
I can't remember his. Yeah, Chuck Heavy was killed

00:41:52.849 --> 00:41:56.309
in, I think, May of 2016. So it's a little bit

00:41:56.309 --> 00:42:00.539
before we. went on deployment charles keating

00:42:00.539 --> 00:42:03.679
and he was actually at one of the sites that

00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.840
we ended up going to and we didn't have you know

00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.219
any crazy firefights or anything when we were

00:42:09.219 --> 00:42:12.280
at that site but you know there was just thought

00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:14.460
about this could be like a real deployment this

00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:17.460
time so i better be prepared and on my a game

00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:22.980
for it so i did do that um we ended up moving

00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:28.269
to mosul uh in i think it was october of 2016

00:42:28.269 --> 00:42:30.869
in advance of the the beginning of the battle

00:42:30.869 --> 00:42:34.309
of mosul that started on october 19th and that

00:42:34.309 --> 00:42:36.369
was the rest of the deployment was battle of

00:42:36.369 --> 00:42:40.510
mosul which i i believe was is is heavy of combat

00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:43.429
is this you know the the regular seal teams were

00:42:43.429 --> 00:42:49.230
getting um at that time but uh i think it was

00:42:49.230 --> 00:42:51.869
still probably a lot more mellow than like 2005

00:42:51.869 --> 00:42:54.750
iraq and what like the teams were were doing

00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:58.400
doing then so it was a good experience um but

00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:02.579
yeah finished out iraq up to to february of 2017

00:43:02.579 --> 00:43:05.179
and and then i had a couple months before i got

00:43:05.179 --> 00:43:09.659
out a question i always ask people you know who

00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:12.539
were deployed in combat um the back story the

00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:15.480
question is very simple back home we are fed

00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.239
really a kind of uh a polarizing view of war

00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:22.039
it's either one side kill them all let god sort

00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.940
them out stack bodies Or it's the other side,

00:43:24.980 --> 00:43:27.320
they're all baby killers. And in the middle are

00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:29.719
obviously the men and women that go overseas

00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:31.920
to protect complete strangers with our flag on

00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.880
their shoulder. Regardless of the politics that

00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:38.760
sent you to any of the places while you were

00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:41.539
in, was there a moment where you realized there

00:43:41.539 --> 00:43:43.739
were some horrific people that did need to be

00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:49.239
addressed? Yeah, I think in some of this is obviously...

00:43:50.010 --> 00:43:53.750
Fed through a certain lens, but there was pretty,

00:43:53.809 --> 00:43:58.929
pretty commonly known or a common awareness about

00:43:58.929 --> 00:44:05.050
what ISIS was doing at the time. And of course,

00:44:05.050 --> 00:44:07.710
there's always a little bit of nuance to stuff

00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:11.809
like that. But, you know, I think what they were

00:44:11.809 --> 00:44:15.090
doing was was pretty universally considered to

00:44:15.090 --> 00:44:21.010
be bad. Maybe not to them, but. Um, yeah, there,

00:44:21.090 --> 00:44:24.489
there was that, I think, you know, you saw some

00:44:24.489 --> 00:44:27.070
of it on deployment, you saw what they were teaching

00:44:27.070 --> 00:44:29.789
in their schools in Mosul, you know, we'd, we'd

00:44:29.789 --> 00:44:33.969
go into a, an abandoned school that was basically

00:44:33.969 --> 00:44:37.510
like an ISIS feeder program or something. Um,

00:44:37.630 --> 00:44:39.969
and you saw how they were educating children

00:44:39.969 --> 00:44:43.710
on like who the Westerners were and, and what

00:44:43.710 --> 00:44:48.650
you should do to them. So, um. Some of that's

00:44:48.650 --> 00:44:51.869
just a conflict of beliefs, but I think that

00:44:51.869 --> 00:44:55.409
combined with what we're seeing directly and

00:44:55.409 --> 00:44:59.190
what we were getting fed from the media and stuff

00:44:59.190 --> 00:45:02.650
like that, it wasn't hard to think that, okay,

00:45:02.909 --> 00:45:08.829
these are not the best people out there. Other

00:45:08.829 --> 00:45:10.809
side of the coin that we also don't hear about

00:45:10.809 --> 00:45:13.670
is kindness and compassion in these combat zones.

00:45:13.949 --> 00:45:17.039
When you reflect back on those years, Whether

00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.000
it was, you know, your own men and women, whether

00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:21.340
it was the indigenous population, what are moments

00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:25.880
of kindness and compassion you remember? You

00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:31.079
know, we, I think we tried to do our best to

00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:37.000
help protect the people that were local to, like,

00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:41.079
Mosul. And one of the things that was really...

00:45:41.530 --> 00:45:43.829
Cool. And what kind of made the whole experience

00:45:43.829 --> 00:45:47.349
feel a little bit more worth it was how happy

00:45:47.349 --> 00:45:50.469
that the local populations were for us to be

00:45:50.469 --> 00:45:53.130
there. And that was kind of contradictory to

00:45:53.130 --> 00:45:56.210
what, you know, you might hear in the news about

00:45:56.210 --> 00:45:59.269
the opinions of locals of Americans being there.

00:45:59.369 --> 00:46:02.469
But every interaction we had with locals was

00:46:02.469 --> 00:46:05.449
very positive and they were very in support of

00:46:05.449 --> 00:46:07.429
what we were doing. And then we would, you know,

00:46:07.489 --> 00:46:11.119
if some of the locals got hurt. because they

00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:15.619
got hit by a mortar or something, we'd help them

00:46:15.619 --> 00:46:20.920
with it. So I like that. And I think it was also

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:28.840
easy to understand that the people there, even

00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:30.860
if we considered them bad, I don't think they

00:46:30.860 --> 00:46:33.840
necessarily think what they're doing is bad.

00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:37.210
So it's kind of like in Star Wars when... I think

00:46:37.210 --> 00:46:39.989
the Sith say, how do you know that we're actually

00:46:39.989 --> 00:46:45.789
the bad ones? But it's easy when you're getting

00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:48.449
shot at or something to preserve your own life.

00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:51.309
So that makes it easy. And then you can do whatever

00:46:51.309 --> 00:46:54.190
you can to dehumanize them as well and make the

00:46:54.190 --> 00:46:58.300
whole experience a little bit easier. I've had

00:46:58.300 --> 00:47:00.019
so many people on the show that are obviously

00:47:00.019 --> 00:47:03.059
looking back now retroactively at the last 20

00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:07.800
years. One of the most glaring things is we were

00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.820
attacked on home soil. Of course, there was a

00:47:10.820 --> 00:47:14.320
lot of anger, a lot of enlistment. And yet there

00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.539
were two conflicts. There was Afghanistan, who

00:47:16.539 --> 00:47:18.780
was supposedly harboring the man responsible

00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:23.179
for 9 -11, and then we had Iraq. And so now on

00:47:23.179 --> 00:47:25.380
the back end, a lot of our veterans are looking

00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:27.519
with a slightly different lens. Now they've got

00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:31.239
all the pieces together. One of the things that

00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:34.539
worries me, and I'll use the kind of health of

00:47:34.539 --> 00:47:39.260
America as an example, if you have companies

00:47:39.260 --> 00:47:43.519
that pay for political campaigns through lobbying

00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:48.059
that benefit off people being sick, then where

00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:50.179
are the checks and balances for Americans to

00:47:50.179 --> 00:47:52.539
be healthy? And I think it's the same with the

00:47:52.539 --> 00:47:56.199
military. When there are a lot of companies that

00:47:56.199 --> 00:47:58.760
make billions, if not trillions, collectively,

00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:02.139
when we are at war, where are the checks and

00:48:02.139 --> 00:48:04.340
balances to make sure that we only send our young

00:48:04.340 --> 00:48:07.280
men and women overseas when it's absolutely necessary?

00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:12.519
So what is your perspective on that? I will say

00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:16.000
that the... Like politics and stuff like that

00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:19.400
is a field that I don't know a ton about. And

00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:24.139
usually I'm pretty, yeah, just in general talking

00:48:24.139 --> 00:48:28.760
about stuff like that. You have such polarized

00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:31.519
views and people get very religious about their

00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.019
beliefs when it comes to that stuff. I think

00:48:35.019 --> 00:48:37.460
in a lot of times it's very unwarranted because

00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:39.539
they probably don't have enough of an understanding

00:48:39.539 --> 00:48:41.940
to have such a strong opinion about something.

00:48:42.219 --> 00:48:45.179
And, you know, there's strong convictions tightly

00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:48.539
held regardless of what information is given

00:48:48.539 --> 00:48:55.199
to them. But generally, I would say I agree with

00:48:55.199 --> 00:49:01.980
what you're saying. I think, yeah, there was

00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:05.260
a lot of like... hate and stuff early on that

00:49:05.260 --> 00:49:10.059
it was probably, I think, you know, public opinions

00:49:10.059 --> 00:49:12.900
were definitely skewed by what the media was

00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:16.639
feeding out. And I think it seems like some of

00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:18.980
the perspectives from like the veteran community

00:49:18.980 --> 00:49:21.900
have shifted a little bit in terms of like, you

00:49:21.900 --> 00:49:28.380
know, was, was the Iraq war being fought because

00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:31.139
of the reasons that were initially being pushed

00:49:31.139 --> 00:49:34.900
out and yeah again i i'm not super educated or

00:49:34.900 --> 00:49:36.880
informed in it so i don't want to like say anything

00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:41.300
that makes me sound like an idiot now i think

00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:43.159
it's an interesting but like you said i always

00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:45.360
stand right in the middle i mean i can't stand

00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.340
politics but i think you know hearing the voices

00:49:47.340 --> 00:49:48.780
of the people that were there like what does

00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:50.960
james gearing know i never was never deployed

00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:55.639
so let's transition then out um into the the

00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:58.420
exercise physiology world so when you found yourself

00:49:58.420 --> 00:50:00.639
in that space you know what was some of the first

00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:02.699
things that you started focusing on as far as

00:50:02.699 --> 00:50:06.179
your studies and then ultimately research yeah

00:50:06.179 --> 00:50:09.679
i was uh i was working at after i got out of

00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:13.139
the navy i started working for a privately funded

00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:17.920
disaster response organization and it was called

00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:19.780
global support and development and initially

00:50:19.780 --> 00:50:24.539
it was very concentrated with like um you know

00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:27.739
smoke jumpers from the fire services um we had

00:50:27.739 --> 00:50:30.599
a lot of like air force pjs we had team guys

00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:35.780
we had um green berets and we you know we even

00:50:35.780 --> 00:50:38.159
had special forces from like australia and stuff

00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:43.159
or or the uk and so it was a super cool mix of

00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:46.199
people and i ended up uh kind of shifting into

00:50:46.199 --> 00:50:49.460
a human performance role while i was there And

00:50:49.460 --> 00:50:53.019
the first exposure I had to exercise physiology

00:50:53.019 --> 00:50:56.639
was the NSCA certified strength and conditioning

00:50:56.639 --> 00:51:02.739
specialist certification. And, you know, I just

00:51:02.739 --> 00:51:05.780
bought the textbook for it because I heard that

00:51:05.780 --> 00:51:09.340
it was the hardest of the, you know, the reputable

00:51:09.340 --> 00:51:12.340
certifications to get. I had like a 60 something

00:51:12.340 --> 00:51:18.090
percent failure rate for the first attempt. As

00:51:18.090 --> 00:51:21.090
soon as I started reading through the textbook

00:51:21.090 --> 00:51:24.510
to help you prepare for it, I was like, I, I'd

00:51:24.510 --> 00:51:27.309
never taken in information so easily. And, and

00:51:27.309 --> 00:51:29.909
so it was just, I could just read through the

00:51:29.909 --> 00:51:31.949
book and then I took the test and I did very

00:51:31.949 --> 00:51:34.909
well on the test. And I'd never had any academic

00:51:34.909 --> 00:51:37.610
training before that. Like before that book,

00:51:37.690 --> 00:51:40.869
I didn't know what the Krebs cycle was, or I

00:51:40.869 --> 00:51:44.130
hadn't heard of like aerobic metabolism besides

00:51:44.130 --> 00:51:47.599
in the context of like. actually training exercise.

00:51:48.659 --> 00:51:52.760
So that was super cool to me. But I think the

00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:56.440
main things that got me really excited were mainly

00:51:56.440 --> 00:51:58.539
being able to tie it back to endurance. I'd spent

00:51:58.539 --> 00:52:02.579
the last couple of years powerlifting and getting

00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:06.480
decent at that too. But I think I have a more

00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.780
natural interest in physiology related to endurance

00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:12.360
performance. I think it's just a little bit more.

00:52:12.940 --> 00:52:15.639
complex and and also just more interesting and

00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:19.500
there's more more to be understood that can contribute

00:52:19.500 --> 00:52:22.320
to to better performances than there are with

00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.599
with strength training so um yeah that's that's

00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:30.960
kind of what got me excited at first there seems

00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:34.579
to have been a running theme of less is more

00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:36.420
when it comes to training you know when i was

00:52:36.420 --> 00:52:38.539
young it was the kind of bodybuilding when it

00:52:38.539 --> 00:52:40.860
came to lifting and it was just the you know

00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:45.019
Stallone montage, just train yourself into the

00:52:45.019 --> 00:52:48.340
ground was, you know, was the mentality. But

00:52:48.340 --> 00:52:50.659
when I speak to the MMA coaches, you know, they're

00:52:50.659 --> 00:52:54.639
not doing full contact, you know, sparring every

00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:56.239
single session because they're understanding

00:52:56.239 --> 00:52:58.599
TBI and CTE and all these other elements. Now,

00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.519
when you look at CrossFit, yeah, the high level

00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:03.980
CrossFit competitors might be in the gym all

00:53:03.980 --> 00:53:06.579
day, but to get a benefit, you know, three, four

00:53:06.579 --> 00:53:09.539
sessions a week and you're going to end up. being

00:53:09.539 --> 00:53:11.380
very very fit and very very strong if you're

00:53:11.380 --> 00:53:14.780
consistent when it comes to the endurance training

00:53:14.780 --> 00:53:19.400
what if at all what has been um the shift over

00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.000
the last few decades as far as the way that um

00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:25.519
we're training people for marathons for triathlons

00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:32.320
that's um that's kind of a nuanced topic and

00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:34.679
it's definitely one that gets debated quite a

00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:39.760
bit um I'll say there are numerous examples on

00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:43.820
either side of the spectrum that could push you

00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:50.280
to believe that one approach to training volume

00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:52.179
is a little bit more beneficial than another

00:53:52.179 --> 00:53:56.239
way. But I'd say generally, it's very clear that

00:53:56.239 --> 00:53:59.539
there's an extremely strong link between training

00:53:59.539 --> 00:54:02.340
volume and endurance performance, pretty much

00:54:02.340 --> 00:54:06.190
regardless of... the distance or race duration,

00:54:06.610 --> 00:54:09.349
uh, assuming you're not talking about like any

00:54:09.349 --> 00:54:12.309
sort of sprint sport or very anaerobic intermittent

00:54:12.309 --> 00:54:18.829
like exercise. Um, so yeah, generally my, my

00:54:18.829 --> 00:54:23.250
beliefs are in favor of more volume is better

00:54:23.250 --> 00:54:25.989
assuming you're not overdoing it. And one of

00:54:25.989 --> 00:54:29.989
the goals should be to develop capacity for more

00:54:29.989 --> 00:54:35.019
volume over time. Um, There are exceptions to

00:54:35.019 --> 00:54:42.119
that, though. For example, David Roche, I can't

00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:44.260
remember if it was Western States or what last

00:54:44.260 --> 00:54:49.340
year, but he broke the course record. I don't

00:54:49.340 --> 00:54:51.079
remember what the time was. I want to say it

00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:54.480
was like 14 hours or something for a very hilly

00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:59.840
100 -mile race. Wasn't training super high volume.

00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:02.579
I think he said something like he was training

00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:06.480
like 10 to 12 hours a week. It definitely wasn't.

00:55:06.940 --> 00:55:10.320
high volume compared to what you would expect

00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:14.800
for a hundred mile runner of that caliber. But

00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:17.619
then I think you can find a lot more examples

00:55:17.619 --> 00:55:20.559
of high level endurance athletes, like, uh, the

00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:22.599
Norwegian triathletes right now, especially,

00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:24.500
you know, Christian Blumenfeld is my favorite

00:55:24.500 --> 00:55:26.860
one, if you know that name, but, uh, I think

00:55:26.860 --> 00:55:29.239
he's, he's perhaps one of the best endurance

00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:34.579
athletes of all time. And he. over the last several

00:55:34.579 --> 00:55:38.280
years has trained an average of 30 to 35 hours

00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:43.300
a week in many 40 hour weeks and you know it's

00:55:43.300 --> 00:55:45.320
not only that he's training that high the volume

00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.719
but he's still getting the right distribution

00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:51.139
of intensity within that so it's not just an

00:55:51.139 --> 00:55:53.920
easy 30 to 40 hours of training a week like there

00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.300
is intensity in there but it there's they're

00:55:56.300 --> 00:55:59.139
so well calibrated to what intensity they need

00:55:59.139 --> 00:56:02.840
to be focusing on and Really pushing to build

00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:05.880
that capacity for more volume since a young age.

00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:08.980
He was starting in his early teens and already

00:56:08.980 --> 00:56:12.059
trained pretty high volumes for what would be

00:56:12.059 --> 00:56:14.639
considered high volume for a teenager. So yeah,

00:56:14.659 --> 00:56:18.119
generally I'm on the camp of if you can and if

00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:21.039
your goal is absolute performance, I think building

00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:24.840
capacity for more volume is a good approach.

00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.940
So the ability to do more volume obviously also.

00:56:30.219 --> 00:56:33.420
is the result of rest and recovery so what again

00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:37.019
has been the uh the evolution of that thought

00:56:37.019 --> 00:56:39.400
process when it comes to how important everything

00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:42.460
from sleep to you know ice baths whatever the

00:56:42.460 --> 00:56:46.820
things are yeah so this is actually my my favorite

00:56:46.820 --> 00:56:50.199
place to look to what the norwegian triathletes

00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:54.840
are doing um they've been pretty outspoken on

00:56:54.840 --> 00:56:59.269
not using any of the traditional uh you know

00:56:59.269 --> 00:57:01.809
recovery modalities that people tend to use like

00:57:01.809 --> 00:57:05.469
ice baths or massage and stuff like that um and

00:57:05.469 --> 00:57:09.630
they highly prioritize getting enough food especially

00:57:09.630 --> 00:57:13.829
carbohydrate and then getting enough sleep and

00:57:13.829 --> 00:57:17.409
then managing training intensity and volume appropriately

00:57:17.409 --> 00:57:21.289
one of the things that's clear now is when you

00:57:21.289 --> 00:57:25.610
are training 30 to 40 hours a week you're limited

00:57:25.610 --> 00:57:28.489
by typical constraints on maximum sustainable

00:57:28.489 --> 00:57:32.030
energy expenditure. There was literature that

00:57:32.030 --> 00:57:36.690
used to suggest that you could really only sustain

00:57:36.690 --> 00:57:40.030
two to two and a half times your basal metabolic

00:57:40.030 --> 00:57:43.320
rate. And if you did more than that, you just

00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:45.280
weren't going to be able to take in enough calories

00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:48.219
to sustain that training volume. But there was

00:57:48.219 --> 00:57:52.079
a recent report that was published on Christian

00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:55.559
Blumenfeld and his energy expenditure. And he

00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:59.320
was probably expending four to four and a half

00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:02.780
times his basal metabolic rate for years. And

00:58:02.780 --> 00:58:05.199
that's including periods of downtime and stuff

00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:09.960
like that. So I think. If you're at the high

00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:13.780
level of endurance sport, the limitations are

00:58:13.780 --> 00:58:17.219
going to be more in terms of can you eat enough

00:58:17.219 --> 00:58:20.320
to support that training? Because if not, you're

00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:22.619
just going to dig yourself into a hole and you're

00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:24.480
not going to be able to adapt to what you're

00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:28.840
doing anyways. Well, you are part of a population

00:58:28.840 --> 00:58:31.059
that was exposed to a lot of sleep deprivation.

00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:33.860
I was part of a population that literally is

00:58:33.860 --> 00:58:37.340
exposed for 25, 30 years without anyone even

00:58:37.340 --> 00:58:40.000
thinking about it. Yeah. Talk to me about the

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:44.019
impact of sleep deprivation on performance and

00:58:44.019 --> 00:58:46.099
acuity. And also, if you want to look at the

00:58:46.099 --> 00:58:49.909
chronic side, too. Yeah, sleep deprivation is

00:58:49.909 --> 00:58:54.929
definitely a problem. It depends how you're measuring

00:58:54.929 --> 00:58:57.849
cognition, right? And certain characteristics

00:58:57.849 --> 00:59:01.550
of cognition are going to be impaired at different

00:59:01.550 --> 00:59:04.070
rates for different people with different amounts

00:59:04.070 --> 00:59:08.820
of sleep deprivation. But you could broadly say

00:59:08.820 --> 00:59:11.780
based on some research that, you know, 24 hours

00:59:11.780 --> 00:59:14.159
of sleep deprivation is comparable to a certain

00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:17.199
blood alcohol concentration. And you're going

00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:19.920
to have similar, you know, kind of general cognitive

00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:25.139
impairment in both of those situations. And I

00:59:25.139 --> 00:59:27.920
think, yeah, more troubling is in, you know,

00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.880
in some of the military communities and even

00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:34.119
some academic communities, there's such a...

00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:37.019
a negative view on like getting enough sleep.

00:59:37.099 --> 00:59:40.239
And I think a lot of that's been shifting. But

00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:42.760
I've always really prioritized my sleep if I

00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:46.960
could get it. And, you know, I think a lot of

00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:49.679
that has to do with awareness of how much of

00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:51.800
a detriment it is going to be if you don't get

00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:55.059
your sleep, you know, acutely. And you're also

00:59:55.059 --> 01:00:00.400
just worsening the effect of any sort of stressor

01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.619
that you experience after that so if you get

01:00:02.619 --> 01:00:05.239
a brain injury while you're sleep deprived in

01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:07.900
a culture that promotes a lot of alcohol consumption

01:00:07.900 --> 01:00:11.900
um you know not only did you have the stress

01:00:11.900 --> 01:00:15.280
of a job that is going to bring wear and tear

01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:17.760
on those systems over time but you're you're

01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:21.000
also just compounding it with with shitty habits

01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:24.199
that you could you could have a little bit differently

01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:26.659
and probably be a little bit better off in the

01:00:26.659 --> 01:00:29.519
long term. But yeah, I'm a big proponent of sleep

01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:34.139
and I'm glad I wasn't in too long and didn't

01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:36.539
have too much of the issues with sleep deprivation

01:00:36.539 --> 01:00:40.159
because I think it is clear there's at least

01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:42.659
an association between sleep deprivation and

01:00:42.659 --> 01:00:46.820
sort of cognitive impairment down the road. Absolutely.

01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:49.320
One other area, I don't know if this correlates

01:00:49.320 --> 01:00:51.000
at all with the smokejumpers that you studied,

01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:54.429
but not only when you're in a fire or obviously

01:00:54.429 --> 01:00:56.230
you're exposed to hundreds and hundreds of degrees

01:00:56.230 --> 01:01:00.050
um uh you know of heat at that moment but the

01:01:00.050 --> 01:01:02.849
sheer exertion in the bunker gear which is designed

01:01:02.849 --> 01:01:05.530
to not let heat in but also therefore not let

01:01:05.530 --> 01:01:08.530
heat out that was always the biggest barrier

01:01:08.530 --> 01:01:11.130
for me i never had an issue where on any fire

01:01:11.130 --> 01:01:15.570
scene where i was too tired air quotes but It

01:01:15.570 --> 01:01:17.269
was overheating, like to the point where you

01:01:17.269 --> 01:01:19.130
literally felt like your organs were cooking,

01:01:19.269 --> 01:01:21.250
you know, because of the exertion and the inability

01:01:21.250 --> 01:01:24.989
to basically let the heat out of the encapsulation

01:01:24.989 --> 01:01:28.329
that you're in. What has been your research or

01:01:28.329 --> 01:01:30.929
studies on that and the impact of performance?

01:01:32.610 --> 01:01:37.349
So I originally started to get a little bit interested

01:01:37.349 --> 01:01:41.880
in this topic when I would hear. about you know

01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:45.559
students and buds getting a heat stroke or some

01:01:45.559 --> 01:01:48.599
sort of heat injury that could be career ending

01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:50.780
at that point and it would happen in the seal

01:01:50.780 --> 01:01:53.780
teams too during workups you know we do land

01:01:53.780 --> 01:01:57.119
warfare training on the west coast in an environment

01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:00.900
that can get up to 120 degrees during the summer

01:02:00.900 --> 01:02:04.039
um and so guys will have heat strokes and they'll

01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:07.960
have like career -ending heat illnesses and um

01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:12.059
As you know, if you have one of those incidents

01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:15.400
that's bad enough, it could kill you, but it

01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:17.460
could also just lead to permanent consequences

01:02:17.460 --> 01:02:22.190
with your ability to thermoregulate. It's apparent

01:02:22.190 --> 01:02:24.989
that it's an issue, and the military was operating

01:02:24.989 --> 01:02:29.429
in hot environments throughout the world indefinitely,

01:02:29.469 --> 01:02:32.710
and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and those

01:02:32.710 --> 01:02:35.530
can be extremely hot during the summers, and

01:02:35.530 --> 01:02:37.630
any of the jungle environments are going to have

01:02:37.630 --> 01:02:40.869
a lot of heat stress associated with them. So

01:02:40.869 --> 01:02:43.289
it's apparent to me that there was an issue that

01:02:43.289 --> 01:02:47.530
needed to be addressed. When I started learning

01:02:47.530 --> 01:02:51.289
about exercise physiology, one of the first areas

01:02:51.289 --> 01:02:53.530
that I was learning about in my master's was

01:02:53.530 --> 01:02:57.230
cardiovascular adjustments to exercise and other

01:02:57.230 --> 01:03:01.050
sort of stressors. So like microgravity or being

01:03:01.050 --> 01:03:05.210
in water, stuff like that, that's going to affect

01:03:05.210 --> 01:03:07.610
how your cardiovascular system needs to adjust.

01:03:08.210 --> 01:03:11.170
And, you know, through that, I started learning

01:03:11.170 --> 01:03:14.409
about like... things like plasma volume expansion

01:03:14.409 --> 01:03:16.750
that occur with training and heat acclimation

01:03:16.750 --> 01:03:21.409
and all the other things that help you regulate

01:03:21.409 --> 01:03:24.170
core body temperature as you get fitter. And

01:03:24.170 --> 01:03:28.650
so I had never been told when I was in the SEAL

01:03:28.650 --> 01:03:32.389
teams that you could acclimate to heat to make

01:03:32.389 --> 01:03:35.050
yourself more tolerant of it and also make it

01:03:35.050 --> 01:03:37.750
safer to deal with when you are exposed to it.

01:03:37.809 --> 01:03:41.889
And even just regular aerobic training, if...

01:03:42.090 --> 01:03:45.309
done sufficiently intense that will elevate your

01:03:45.309 --> 01:03:47.289
core body temperature and over time it is going

01:03:47.289 --> 01:03:49.610
to make you a lot more robust in hot situations.

01:03:49.929 --> 01:03:52.710
So I was just kind of blown away that that's

01:03:52.710 --> 01:03:54.550
not something we were educated on, especially

01:03:54.550 --> 01:03:57.909
when people were having heat injuries. So I got

01:03:57.909 --> 01:04:02.190
really interested in understanding ways that

01:04:02.190 --> 01:04:04.690
we could help mitigate the damage from heat stress.

01:04:05.090 --> 01:04:11.000
So in my dissertation, I... had an idea that

01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:16.099
taking exogenous ketone monoesters would help

01:04:16.099 --> 01:04:20.760
with this problem of overheating. And the initial

01:04:20.760 --> 01:04:23.760
reason was that when you overheat, you start

01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:25.739
to have a reduction in blood flow to the brain,

01:04:26.380 --> 01:04:30.760
which beyond that, you also have the discomfort

01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:33.840
to the heat. You have maybe dehydration. There's

01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:35.760
a bunch of factors that contribute to you having

01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:40.800
impaired cognition as you overheat. um and it's

01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:42.599
thought that mechanistically like one of the

01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:44.780
causes is this reduction in brain blood flow

01:04:44.780 --> 01:04:47.559
there had also been pretty extensive research

01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:50.719
showing that ketones whether they're the monoesters

01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:54.039
being ingested orally or like a ketone iv infusion

01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:58.699
can increase brain blood flow quite a bit and

01:04:58.699 --> 01:05:01.599
not only that but there are numerous studies

01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:05.119
linking ketone monoester consumption to improve

01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:08.920
cognition in situations where you would have

01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:12.619
an impairment. So think you're running 100 kilometer

01:05:12.619 --> 01:05:15.900
ultra marathon, you're not going to be performing

01:05:15.900 --> 01:05:18.940
cognitively at your best at the end of that after

01:05:18.940 --> 01:05:22.960
12 to 24 hours of fatiguing exercise. But if

01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:26.730
you take ketone monoesters, you can potentially

01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:29.929
maintain baseline levels of cognition, at least

01:05:29.929 --> 01:05:32.550
in pretty simple tasks where you would normally

01:05:32.550 --> 01:05:34.869
have a drop -off. Same with hypoxia. There's

01:05:34.869 --> 01:05:38.170
been research showing that you can be in a hypoxic

01:05:38.170 --> 01:05:41.590
environment and having taken these ketone monoesters

01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:43.650
that you can actually preserve your blood oxygen

01:05:43.650 --> 01:05:46.449
saturation and you can maintain your cognition

01:05:46.449 --> 01:05:49.889
at normal baseline levels. And normally that

01:05:49.889 --> 01:05:53.639
would be an issue. Ketones have been shown to

01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:55.519
improve cognition in those environments, also

01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:59.539
in certain neurodegenerative disease states and

01:05:59.539 --> 01:06:01.539
certain metabolic disease states where cognition

01:06:01.539 --> 01:06:07.300
becomes impaired. So it seemed like a logical

01:06:07.300 --> 01:06:11.260
conclusion to make that these could help with...

01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:14.440
the cognitive impairment that you see when you

01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:17.440
overheat and not only that but ketones can be

01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.119
administered prophylactically if you know you're

01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:22.219
going to experience a brain injury and that can

01:06:22.219 --> 01:06:24.599
help mitigate some of the damage they can also

01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:27.340
be given right after so i believe the nfl is

01:06:27.340 --> 01:06:30.840
giving people ketone monoesters if they have

01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:36.000
like a concussive event um and i know that in

01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:40.460
some uh clinical settings i'll give give uh intravenous

01:06:40.460 --> 01:06:43.690
ketones if you have uh any sort of brain injury

01:06:43.690 --> 01:06:46.389
and i don't know like how how across the board

01:06:46.389 --> 01:06:48.550
that is but i know they can't be helpful and

01:06:48.550 --> 01:06:50.449
they can also speed recovery for brain injury

01:06:50.449 --> 01:06:52.889
so a bunch of reasons why tactical populations

01:06:52.889 --> 01:06:55.630
might want to be looking into these at least

01:06:55.630 --> 01:07:01.429
um so my my research on these keto monoesters

01:07:01.429 --> 01:07:06.909
was to to answer the question of can taking these

01:07:06.909 --> 01:07:09.849
help preserve your baseline cognition when you

01:07:09.849 --> 01:07:14.369
overheat. So what we did to test this was we

01:07:14.369 --> 01:07:17.190
took very fit individuals. So VO2 max is above

01:07:17.190 --> 01:07:20.469
55, but we had an average of VO2 max of about

01:07:20.469 --> 01:07:26.570
59, which is high, but it's not insane. And I

01:07:26.570 --> 01:07:28.630
was hoping that that would be a little bit more

01:07:28.630 --> 01:07:31.989
representative of the special operations populations.

01:07:34.570 --> 01:07:39.110
And we basically had these participants exercise

01:07:39.110 --> 01:07:42.929
on a treadmill with a weight vest in a heat chamber

01:07:42.929 --> 01:07:49.369
pretty hard for 90 minutes. And we saw average

01:07:49.369 --> 01:07:53.570
core body temperatures between 103 and 104 degrees

01:07:53.570 --> 01:07:56.150
at the end of this. And we tested their cognition

01:07:56.150 --> 01:07:59.829
in the middle of the exercise and at the end

01:07:59.829 --> 01:08:03.480
of it. And we found that... if you were assigned

01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:06.239
to the condition that was taking the ketone monoesters,

01:08:06.500 --> 01:08:09.119
that you were going to perform better cognitively

01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:12.300
on the more complex cognitive tasks because those

01:08:12.300 --> 01:08:16.079
were the only ones we saw reductions in. And

01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:19.079
not only that, but at the end of those 90 minutes

01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:21.880
in the last round of cognitive testing, we had

01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:23.760
the participants take off their weight vests

01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:26.119
and then do a time to exhaustion test at a very

01:08:26.119 --> 01:08:30.380
high intensity. And the condition receiving ketones

01:08:30.380 --> 01:08:34.800
also outperformed. the carbohydrate condition

01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:39.619
that we used as a comparator by about 27%. So

01:08:39.619 --> 01:08:42.819
pretty robust findings when it came to the cognitive

01:08:42.819 --> 01:08:46.140
improvements and the physical improvements. And

01:08:46.140 --> 01:08:49.079
that was a big deal because keto monoesters historically

01:08:49.079 --> 01:08:53.079
have been shown to impair high intensity exercise

01:08:53.079 --> 01:08:57.039
performance. There are a number of reasons why

01:08:57.039 --> 01:08:58.460
it might have been a little bit different in

01:08:58.460 --> 01:09:01.479
this, one being that ketone monoesters have never

01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:07.340
been tested in heat, as far as I know. But yeah,

01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:11.500
pretty interesting. And that's another area that

01:09:11.500 --> 01:09:14.000
I'd love to keep working in is with the ketones.

01:09:15.539 --> 01:09:18.840
I always like to look at the evolution of man

01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:21.300
to really kind of line up with some of these

01:09:21.300 --> 01:09:24.140
studies. For example, Let's take the carnivore

01:09:24.140 --> 01:09:27.340
diet. I don't believe that many human beings

01:09:27.340 --> 01:09:29.800
historically had access to that much meat that

01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:33.300
they could eat three times a day. But there's

01:09:33.300 --> 01:09:35.960
a removal of processed foods. And yeah, that's

01:09:35.960 --> 01:09:38.899
probably the biggest of the wins. When you look

01:09:38.899 --> 01:09:42.439
back historically, what are the elements of human

01:09:42.439 --> 01:09:45.340
evolution that's maybe mimicking the ketosis

01:09:45.340 --> 01:09:49.100
that's creating this kind of protective response?

01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:53.100
uh you know um evolutionary that you'll be able

01:09:53.100 --> 01:09:57.279
to mimic with these ketones so i don't think

01:09:57.279 --> 01:10:00.439
it's complete there there's a lot about ketones

01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:02.960
that's not very well understood uh for example

01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:05.699
like ketones can help prevent oxygen toxicity

01:10:05.699 --> 01:10:09.819
when diving on a rebreather so you normally are

01:10:09.819 --> 01:10:12.140
very limited by how deep you can go when breathing

01:10:12.140 --> 01:10:15.500
pure oxygen and you can actually prevent having

01:10:15.500 --> 01:10:18.039
a seizure and prevent other toxicity associated

01:10:18.039 --> 01:10:22.460
with um being exposed to oxygen at those pressures

01:10:22.460 --> 01:10:26.880
with ketones and i as far as i understand it's

01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:29.800
not known why why that's the case necessarily

01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:33.600
i think there's some theories around it but um

01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:37.539
i've got to say i don't i don't really know why

01:10:37.539 --> 01:10:41.060
it would be helpful as far as evolutionary biology

01:10:41.060 --> 01:10:46.750
goes but The cool thing is with taking these

01:10:46.750 --> 01:10:50.750
exogenous ketones and also that kind of doesn't

01:10:50.750 --> 01:10:54.529
parallel the evolutionary biology thinking is

01:10:54.529 --> 01:10:58.930
that we didn't have our participants on a ketogenic

01:10:58.930 --> 01:11:01.229
diet. They were eating a regular carbohydrate

01:11:01.229 --> 01:11:05.210
-rich diet. And you just take these ketone monoesters

01:11:05.210 --> 01:11:07.989
and they will elevate your ketones as if you

01:11:07.989 --> 01:11:11.500
were in ketosis without necessitating. you spending

01:11:11.500 --> 01:11:16.079
several days to weeks on a carbohydrate -restricted

01:11:16.079 --> 01:11:19.760
diet in order to produce your own ketones endogenously.

01:11:21.180 --> 01:11:25.579
But yeah, I don't really know why the ketones

01:11:25.579 --> 01:11:31.279
would be helpful from that lens. Besides, in

01:11:31.279 --> 01:11:33.479
periods of starvation, they are a very efficient

01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:37.800
fuel. people do report having some cognitive

01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:39.819
improvement when they're on a ketogenic diet

01:11:39.819 --> 01:11:42.000
in a lot of cases, assuming you've gotten over

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:47.079
that like initial keto flu hump. So yeah, maybe.

01:11:48.989 --> 01:11:51.010
I don't know, maybe you're more susceptible to

01:11:51.010 --> 01:11:53.489
having some issues when you're being starved.

01:11:53.590 --> 01:11:57.770
So ketones are more efficient a fuel than carbohydrate.

01:11:58.250 --> 01:12:01.170
They require less oxygen to produce the same

01:12:01.170 --> 01:12:04.590
amount of ATP. So there is something beneficial

01:12:04.590 --> 01:12:07.829
from that lens. The other thing when it comes

01:12:07.829 --> 01:12:11.930
to brain injuries is that the reason that brain

01:12:11.930 --> 01:12:15.229
injuries, one of the reasons that they can be

01:12:15.229 --> 01:12:19.119
a little bit tricky to deal with is that They

01:12:19.119 --> 01:12:22.319
basically impair glucose metabolism. And so your

01:12:22.319 --> 01:12:25.640
brain ends up in an energy deficit. And that's

01:12:25.640 --> 01:12:28.840
the same thing that happens with like, or can

01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:31.180
happen with a stroke or heart attack where you

01:12:31.180 --> 01:12:36.420
have some degree of ischemia. And there's a loss

01:12:36.420 --> 01:12:39.720
of energy in a certain area. And so supplementing

01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:43.180
with something like creatine can help increase

01:12:43.180 --> 01:12:47.899
endogenous stores that could help. at least bridge

01:12:47.899 --> 01:12:51.380
that gap between having the brain injury and

01:12:51.380 --> 01:12:53.739
then being able to recover normal glucose metabolism.

01:12:54.020 --> 01:12:58.699
But exogenous ketones and lactate, interestingly,

01:12:58.699 --> 01:13:02.380
will bypass that block in metabolism that prevents

01:13:02.380 --> 01:13:06.039
glucose from being used properly. So that's why.

01:13:06.100 --> 01:13:08.020
They just allow energy to continue normally.

01:13:08.319 --> 01:13:11.260
I'm not really sure why they would do that or

01:13:11.260 --> 01:13:14.420
how it fits into the evolutionary biology picture,

01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:18.149
though. It seems to me when you hear about being

01:13:18.149 --> 01:13:21.489
ketosis and allowing autophagy to get rid of

01:13:21.489 --> 01:13:24.369
all the dead cells, basically, and I'm making

01:13:24.369 --> 01:13:29.069
that very white belt, that naturally a lot of

01:13:29.069 --> 01:13:31.510
humans would have had feast and famine. And that

01:13:31.510 --> 01:13:35.029
kind of undulation seems to be what we're seeing

01:13:35.029 --> 01:13:39.199
the benefits from. personally believe in chemotherapy.

01:13:39.380 --> 01:13:41.439
I think it's kind of a scorched earth, fingers

01:13:41.439 --> 01:13:45.760
crossed type of mentality when it comes to cancer.

01:13:46.039 --> 01:13:49.699
But you hear when used in ketosis, they're seeing

01:13:49.699 --> 01:13:51.659
better results. And obviously the next question

01:13:51.659 --> 01:13:53.720
is, well, what if you did it with no chemo and

01:13:53.720 --> 01:13:56.819
just ketosis? Would you actually see the body

01:13:56.819 --> 01:13:59.380
kind of shifting back to homeostasis and some

01:13:59.380 --> 01:14:02.840
of these cancers actually reversing? But I think

01:14:02.840 --> 01:14:07.140
the human body is such an incredible thing. That

01:14:07.140 --> 01:14:09.159
I wonder if some of these innovations that we're

01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:13.359
seeing is simply the body's own response to disease

01:14:13.359 --> 01:14:18.119
or, as you said, starvation. And if left alone

01:14:18.119 --> 01:14:20.500
in some areas and given the right fuel and the

01:14:20.500 --> 01:14:22.560
right sleep, it would actually be able to self

01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:28.539
-correct. Yeah, I agree 100%. I think variation

01:14:28.539 --> 01:14:33.619
is... inherently beneficial to some degree. And

01:14:33.619 --> 01:14:37.020
one example you see in exercise physiology is

01:14:37.020 --> 01:14:40.000
how quickly you can overtrain a horse by having

01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:43.000
them do moderately high intensity exercise every

01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:47.619
day. So in order to train a lot, you're going

01:14:47.619 --> 01:14:49.760
to have to vary your intensity. So you're going

01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:52.819
to have to do your low intensity work. um and

01:14:52.819 --> 01:14:55.460
your high intensity because just doing high intensity

01:14:55.460 --> 01:14:57.680
wouldn't allow you to accumulate the training

01:14:57.680 --> 01:15:00.920
stress that you could by kind of distributing

01:15:00.920 --> 01:15:03.579
things a little bit differently and i think that

01:15:03.579 --> 01:15:06.899
the same thing is true with metabolism and health

01:15:06.899 --> 01:15:11.699
and anything like that is um it helps you to

01:15:11.699 --> 01:15:14.020
be working through a range of different physiological

01:15:14.020 --> 01:15:17.399
stressors in order to have your you know body

01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:19.939
be more flexible in different situations so yeah

01:15:19.939 --> 01:15:23.979
i completely agree Flipping it on its head, what

01:15:23.979 --> 01:15:27.060
about cold and cold exposure? A lot of the SEAL

01:15:27.060 --> 01:15:29.020
training involves that. I think that's a lot

01:15:29.020 --> 01:15:30.840
of even the people that ring the bell is because

01:15:30.840 --> 01:15:34.199
of the cold, not so much as far as the cardio

01:15:34.199 --> 01:15:37.960
and the endurance element. I had Wim Hof on the

01:15:37.960 --> 01:15:39.420
show, and you watched some of the incredible

01:15:39.420 --> 01:15:41.659
things that he does, not just himself, but with

01:15:41.659 --> 01:15:44.119
groups and groups of participants. What have

01:15:44.119 --> 01:15:47.380
you seen as far as thermoregulation on the cold

01:15:47.380 --> 01:15:53.300
side? I know there are some benefits to cold

01:15:53.300 --> 01:15:55.619
when it comes to different types of brain injury.

01:15:56.060 --> 01:16:00.140
I believe you want to keep the brain cool after

01:16:00.140 --> 01:16:03.300
any sort of concussive event, but neonatal brain

01:16:03.300 --> 01:16:07.140
injury, you really cool these babies for a couple

01:16:07.140 --> 01:16:12.300
days after it happens, is my understanding. I'm

01:16:12.300 --> 01:16:18.739
not an expert on neonatal brain injuries. There

01:16:18.739 --> 01:16:22.779
is a lot of buzz around cold therapy now, and

01:16:22.779 --> 01:16:26.380
I think a lot of it's a little bit overblown.

01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:31.020
It's kind of like, I used this analogy with my

01:16:31.020 --> 01:16:33.399
friend earlier today, but it's like arguing over

01:16:33.399 --> 01:16:35.619
which position you're doing your hamstring curls

01:16:35.619 --> 01:16:39.420
at the end of your leg day workout. It's just,

01:16:39.539 --> 01:16:42.239
you know, it's like a 1 % thing that might make

01:16:42.239 --> 01:16:44.880
a difference. I think generally, like if cold

01:16:44.880 --> 01:16:47.329
plunges make you feel better. that's probably

01:16:47.329 --> 01:16:50.029
a reason to do them i i like doing them so i

01:16:50.029 --> 01:16:53.090
i go to a sauna cold plunge place like sometimes

01:16:53.090 --> 01:16:56.369
a couple times a week um and i do spend lots

01:16:56.369 --> 01:17:00.710
of time in a cold plunge um but i don't as far

01:17:00.710 --> 01:17:02.869
as the evidence goes there's not any reason to

01:17:02.869 --> 01:17:05.369
think that like doing your cold plunge is gonna

01:17:05.369 --> 01:17:09.109
have a meaningful effect on your longevity um

01:17:09.630 --> 01:17:12.770
But at least acutely, they make some people feel

01:17:12.770 --> 01:17:15.670
good and they might increase the release of certain

01:17:15.670 --> 01:17:18.130
neurotransmitters that make you perform a little

01:17:18.130 --> 01:17:20.189
bit better for certain things for some period

01:17:20.189 --> 01:17:23.029
of time. There's also the other side of that

01:17:23.029 --> 01:17:28.229
with cold therapy kind of blunting a lot of exercise

01:17:28.229 --> 01:17:30.810
adaptations. And this is just because you're

01:17:30.810 --> 01:17:35.470
kind of returning your body to homeostasis artificially

01:17:35.470 --> 01:17:39.319
quickly. So in the case of like... inflammation

01:17:39.319 --> 01:17:42.460
being necessary as a signal for adaptation and

01:17:42.460 --> 01:17:45.939
heat stress being a necessary signal. And so

01:17:45.939 --> 01:17:48.680
if you jump in a cold plunge right after your

01:17:48.680 --> 01:17:50.960
exercise and you just bring yourself back down

01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:53.180
and remove some of those inflammatory processes,

01:17:53.439 --> 01:17:58.960
you might not have as much adaptation. But yeah,

01:17:59.039 --> 01:18:03.100
besides that, I don't think... I don't think

01:18:03.100 --> 01:18:07.199
the cold stress is quite as interesting as potential

01:18:07.199 --> 01:18:12.479
benefits and applications of understanding heat

01:18:12.479 --> 01:18:17.420
stress. When I was early on in my sports science

01:18:17.420 --> 01:18:21.260
career and then even the lifeguarding, when it

01:18:21.260 --> 01:18:24.000
came to injuries, it was rice, rest, ice, compression,

01:18:24.239 --> 01:18:26.939
elevation. And as you progressed through, I actually

01:18:26.939 --> 01:18:30.279
went to UF to finish my bachelor's years and

01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:32.819
years later. And they were actually changing

01:18:32.819 --> 01:18:34.220
the way they were talking about it. And they

01:18:34.220 --> 01:18:37.479
weren't using ice. And again, going back to evolution.

01:18:38.800 --> 01:18:41.619
I believe that the body swells for a reason.

01:18:41.680 --> 01:18:44.760
It's encapsulating the injured part of your body.

01:18:44.819 --> 01:18:47.619
It's flooding all the things that it needs. It's

01:18:47.619 --> 01:18:49.680
painful for a reason because you don't want to

01:18:49.680 --> 01:18:51.520
step on the thing that you just almost broke.

01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:54.520
So again, it was counterintuitive when I look

01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:56.880
back to be like, well, just like you're talking

01:18:56.880 --> 01:18:59.119
about. Well, how do we inhibit the very process

01:18:59.119 --> 01:19:01.920
that the body knows it needs to do to salvage

01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:06.949
this injury? Yeah. It's interesting because,

01:19:07.050 --> 01:19:09.649
yeah, I mean, I'm glad they were teaching that.

01:19:09.750 --> 01:19:11.850
You still have physical therapists that will

01:19:11.850 --> 01:19:15.770
tell you to ice an injury after. And I think,

01:19:15.909 --> 01:19:19.989
you know, I don't want to say this completely

01:19:19.989 --> 01:19:22.329
matter -of -factly, but at least what I advise

01:19:22.329 --> 01:19:26.279
my clients is. the only time that you really

01:19:26.279 --> 01:19:29.739
should be icing an injury is for pain management

01:19:29.739 --> 01:19:32.699
if that pain is interfering with you know if

01:19:32.699 --> 01:19:35.260
you had to give a presentation and you your legs

01:19:35.260 --> 01:19:38.180
throbbing or something then like yeah sure ice

01:19:38.180 --> 01:19:40.659
ice and make yourself feel a little bit better

01:19:40.659 --> 01:19:43.840
for that or potentially for uh like a short -term

01:19:43.840 --> 01:19:45.960
cosmetic reason you know you don't want to have

01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:47.840
as much swelling around your face or something

01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:51.100
like that um but besides that you know i generally

01:19:51.100 --> 01:19:55.079
advocate for heat and uh And then as much movement

01:19:55.079 --> 01:19:58.880
as you can tolerate without aggravating the injury.

01:20:00.899 --> 01:20:03.600
Well, speaking of, you know, head injury, we

01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:05.819
were talking about a little while ago, some of

01:20:05.819 --> 01:20:09.060
the psychedelic, you know, research and just

01:20:09.060 --> 01:20:13.699
observational, you know, results of the, like

01:20:13.699 --> 01:20:15.359
I said, the psychedelic supplant medicines are

01:20:15.359 --> 01:20:17.800
very, very exciting when it comes to brain health.

01:20:18.180 --> 01:20:20.380
But obviously there's that psychological side

01:20:20.380 --> 01:20:23.060
as well. What was it that, or let me rephrase

01:20:23.060 --> 01:20:25.460
that. When did you first even come across this

01:20:25.460 --> 01:20:28.020
kind of therapeutic option? And then what made

01:20:28.020 --> 01:20:34.020
you join the research study in Austin? So I've

01:20:34.020 --> 01:20:39.739
been a long -term advocate and supporter of whether

01:20:39.739 --> 01:20:43.619
it's recreational use or it's therapeutic use.

01:20:44.300 --> 01:20:47.920
um there's obviously a ton of talk right now

01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:51.340
around how miserable ibogaine is but like i found

01:20:51.340 --> 01:20:54.260
ibogaine to be a very enjoyable experience as

01:20:54.260 --> 01:20:59.199
a whole um in and i think in some ways it's right

01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:01.479
there there's a push for this messaging because

01:21:01.479 --> 01:21:04.079
it makes it sound to people who are scared of

01:21:04.079 --> 01:21:08.100
of anything labeled a drug that if it's fun then

01:21:08.100 --> 01:21:12.569
it's also bad um but i you know Some of these

01:21:12.569 --> 01:21:15.489
psychedelics and other similarly categorized

01:21:15.489 --> 01:21:23.210
drugs can just be fun. And so I've had an appreciation

01:21:23.210 --> 01:21:26.970
for them and just having, you know, just altered

01:21:26.970 --> 01:21:30.329
states of consciousness for a long time. My first,

01:21:30.590 --> 01:21:34.930
I did salvia once in high school, which is crazy.

01:21:35.149 --> 01:21:37.350
So that was one of my, that was actually my first

01:21:37.350 --> 01:21:40.510
exposure. But besides that, I was pretty, you

01:21:40.510 --> 01:21:45.489
know, smoked weed uh less than five times in

01:21:45.489 --> 01:21:49.390
high school and um i didn't drink so that was

01:21:49.390 --> 01:21:52.149
pretty pretty straight through high school um

01:21:52.149 --> 01:21:57.649
but the first kind of what i considered to be

01:21:57.649 --> 01:21:59.890
like the first meaningful experience with any

01:21:59.890 --> 01:22:06.720
any drug or psychedelic was was mdma and uh MDMA

01:22:06.720 --> 01:22:10.680
was amazing because I was able to go to a music

01:22:10.680 --> 01:22:14.159
festival and have the best night of my life,

01:22:14.279 --> 01:22:19.119
which before knowing about MDMA, I would have

01:22:19.119 --> 01:22:21.479
never gone. The only reason I went was because

01:22:21.479 --> 01:22:24.520
I was like, oh, I kind of want to try these drugs

01:22:24.520 --> 01:22:28.640
and see if it's... if it's all that people hype

01:22:28.640 --> 01:22:31.600
it up to be and and yeah that was like a life

01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:33.500
-changing experience in itself and it wasn't

01:22:33.500 --> 01:22:35.180
just because it was in a therapeutic setting

01:22:35.180 --> 01:22:37.619
like it really allowed me to have an experience

01:22:37.619 --> 01:22:39.619
that i don't think would have otherwise been

01:22:39.619 --> 01:22:42.840
possible um and that did have some long -term

01:22:42.840 --> 01:22:47.880
benefits with opening me up socially um but kind

01:22:47.880 --> 01:22:49.920
of since then you know i'd experimented with

01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:54.359
different uh substances a little bit and when

01:22:54.359 --> 01:22:58.529
i was A couple of years after separating from

01:22:58.529 --> 01:23:01.689
the Navy, as soon as I separated, I started having

01:23:01.689 --> 01:23:04.109
issues with insomnia. Actually, right after my

01:23:04.109 --> 01:23:06.189
deployment, I was having really bad issues with

01:23:06.189 --> 01:23:09.810
insomnia. And they would come in waves and they

01:23:09.810 --> 01:23:12.630
would be accompanied by like depression and anxiety

01:23:12.630 --> 01:23:15.670
and stuff like that. And it would just be a self

01:23:15.670 --> 01:23:19.569
-perpetuating cycle with worsening my like just

01:23:19.569 --> 01:23:26.119
experience of living. I got to kind of a low

01:23:26.119 --> 01:23:32.300
point in 2019 and I tried taking some LSD and

01:23:32.300 --> 01:23:36.619
going skateboarding. And actually that was like

01:23:36.619 --> 01:23:38.880
one of the most therapeutic experiences I've

01:23:38.880 --> 01:23:42.659
ever had with a psychedelic. It just gave me

01:23:42.659 --> 01:23:45.140
a different perspective on how I was getting

01:23:45.140 --> 01:23:47.659
in my own way. and kind of some of the things

01:23:47.659 --> 01:23:50.560
that were contributing to my unhappiness and

01:23:50.560 --> 01:23:54.239
my insomnia at the time and right you know within

01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:57.859
two days of that experience my insomnia started

01:23:57.859 --> 01:24:00.960
improving really really substantially and really

01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:07.539
quickly um so i was appreciating the application

01:24:07.539 --> 01:24:09.960
of psychedelics and some of those experiences

01:24:09.960 --> 01:24:13.000
and i'm i'm sure you're even more likely to have

01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:15.800
a positive beneficial experience on your life

01:24:15.800 --> 01:24:18.340
if you do those in a controlled setting with

01:24:18.340 --> 01:24:22.920
proper preparation and integration after um but

01:24:22.920 --> 01:24:28.380
fast forward a couple years i'm on my second

01:24:28.380 --> 01:24:33.149
year of my phd second of four years And I had

01:24:33.149 --> 01:24:37.729
the idea to pursue Ironman triathlon again and

01:24:37.729 --> 01:24:41.550
thought, you know, this is the time, right? I'm

01:24:41.550 --> 01:24:44.770
kind of getting to an age where if I start later

01:24:44.770 --> 01:24:46.810
than this, I'm going to be too old to be competitive.

01:24:47.149 --> 01:24:51.569
So I started pushing Ironman triathlon training

01:24:51.569 --> 01:24:53.930
pretty aggressively. And then on my second season,

01:24:54.029 --> 01:24:59.060
I was able to turn professional. Trying to turn

01:24:59.060 --> 01:25:01.659
pro in such a high volume sport while doing a

01:25:01.659 --> 01:25:06.420
PhD and having some sleep issues and some hormone

01:25:06.420 --> 01:25:09.340
issues and stuff like that was, I mean, it was,

01:25:09.340 --> 01:25:11.340
I don't know if it was worth it. It was a good

01:25:11.340 --> 01:25:15.039
experience, but I felt like trash. And I was

01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:17.159
pretty miserable at the end of that. I was extremely

01:25:17.159 --> 01:25:20.079
burned out. I was just not enjoying anything.

01:25:20.600 --> 01:25:27.699
My mood sucked. Then I got an email from Navy

01:25:27.699 --> 01:25:30.960
SEAL Foundation saying UT Austin's doing a clinical

01:25:30.960 --> 01:25:33.939
trial on Ibogaine and you can get paid like $1

01:25:33.939 --> 01:25:37.720
,200 to go do Ibogaine. So I was like, oh, hell

01:25:37.720 --> 01:25:41.180
yeah. Um, cause I, I'd been offered Ibogaine,

01:25:41.279 --> 01:25:44.220
uh, I was put in touch with Mission Within and

01:25:44.220 --> 01:25:48.100
Martine Polanco in 2019 through Dan Cirillo.

01:25:48.319 --> 01:25:50.680
He knew I, you know, I was having a kind of shitty

01:25:50.680 --> 01:25:53.720
time around then. And so he put me in touch with

01:25:53.720 --> 01:25:57.380
Martine. And at the time I was like, I didn't

01:25:57.380 --> 01:25:59.680
know anything about Ibogaine besides that, like,

01:25:59.699 --> 01:26:03.699
it's the only psychedelic that really, really

01:26:03.699 --> 01:26:06.060
can warrant some additional medical supervision.

01:26:07.100 --> 01:26:11.359
because of the cardiotoxic risks. But besides

01:26:11.359 --> 01:26:13.020
that, I didn't know anything about it. It just

01:26:13.020 --> 01:26:15.100
sounded wacky to me. I was like, I don't want

01:26:15.100 --> 01:26:17.279
to miss a week of my training to go to Mexico

01:26:17.279 --> 01:26:20.199
and do some really crazy, you know, the craziest

01:26:20.199 --> 01:26:24.979
psychedelic of them all. So I passed on it then.

01:26:25.640 --> 01:26:30.260
And fast forward to 20, you know, end of 2024,

01:26:30.380 --> 01:26:32.479
when I got that email from Navy SEAL Foundation,

01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:35.300
I immediately signed up. And that's what got

01:26:35.300 --> 01:26:40.720
me into. into the ibogaine study so talk to me

01:26:40.720 --> 01:26:42.439
about that experience as you mentioned it'd be

01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:45.180
more recreational prior now you're in this very

01:26:45.180 --> 01:26:48.800
kind of you know um rigid setting what was your

01:26:48.800 --> 01:26:57.880
experience this time it was yeah i I know some

01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:01.340
of it is made a little bit more difficult because

01:27:01.340 --> 01:27:04.560
of, I don't know, maybe it's my autism or something.

01:27:04.739 --> 01:27:10.199
But I kind of struggle with the traditional preparation

01:27:10.199 --> 01:27:15.100
and integration models. It feels unnatural to

01:27:15.100 --> 01:27:20.729
me, and I don't really get it. I saw the value

01:27:20.729 --> 01:27:23.949
in it. I really enjoyed going to UT Austin and

01:27:23.949 --> 01:27:27.130
doing their cognitive measures pre and post Ibogaine.

01:27:27.229 --> 01:27:30.670
So I loved that part of the experience, especially

01:27:30.670 --> 01:27:34.170
because I was doing cognitive research, but I

01:27:34.170 --> 01:27:38.199
wasn't. doing it at the level of detail that

01:27:38.199 --> 01:27:40.439
they were for that study. You know, all the work

01:27:40.439 --> 01:27:43.180
I was doing was very applied and applied work

01:27:43.180 --> 01:27:45.659
has limitations with equipment and like what

01:27:45.659 --> 01:27:47.760
you can do while people are exercising or in

01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:50.520
a heat chamber or something like that. But, you

01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:52.680
know, we did several hours of functional MRI.

01:27:53.699 --> 01:27:57.180
We were doing EEG, which does get used in exercise

01:27:57.180 --> 01:28:01.560
physiology some. And we are doing a lot of clinician

01:28:01.560 --> 01:28:05.359
administered tests. So it was just a cool experience

01:28:05.359 --> 01:28:08.680
to see how they were doing that. The Ibogaine

01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:13.279
experience itself was, I think, you know, and

01:28:13.279 --> 01:28:15.600
I've had friends who have shared this too, but

01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:18.800
one of the most amazing things about going to

01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:23.020
a retreat like Mission Within to do Ibogaine

01:28:23.020 --> 01:28:29.439
is you get cared for in a way that I think some

01:28:29.439 --> 01:28:33.840
people have never been cared for ever. You know,

01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:40.140
the people there are really doing it because

01:28:40.140 --> 01:28:43.680
they believe in it and because they want to help.

01:28:43.859 --> 01:28:48.619
At least that's the impression I got. And I remember

01:28:48.619 --> 01:28:52.859
Punky, who was my trip lead, he was kind of in

01:28:52.859 --> 01:28:56.159
charge of our group when I went to go do it.

01:28:56.319 --> 01:29:01.520
He was so present the entire weekend. And it

01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:03.579
made such a big impact on me. I was like, how

01:29:03.579 --> 01:29:07.340
can you be in this present and like this, like

01:29:07.340 --> 01:29:11.039
connected with everyone the entire time? It felt

01:29:11.039 --> 01:29:13.000
like something, you know, he had to do once in

01:29:13.000 --> 01:29:16.819
his life. And he told me he does it like potentially

01:29:16.819 --> 01:29:19.420
three times a month for the last couple of years

01:29:19.420 --> 01:29:21.359
or for, you know, for the majority of the last

01:29:21.359 --> 01:29:23.699
couple of years. So I was blown away by that.

01:29:24.880 --> 01:29:29.039
And it's, yeah, if you hadn't had that experience.

01:29:29.640 --> 01:29:31.960
haven't had the experience of someone caring

01:29:31.960 --> 01:29:34.300
for you like that while you're in a vulnerable

01:29:34.300 --> 01:29:40.060
position, it's pretty transformative. The Ibogaine

01:29:40.060 --> 01:29:46.340
experience itself, I also found enjoyable. I

01:29:46.340 --> 01:29:49.319
discovered I'm a slow metabolizer of Ibogaine,

01:29:49.359 --> 01:29:52.619
so it takes me a lot longer to feel the onset

01:29:52.619 --> 01:29:56.199
of the drug. It also takes longer for me to clear

01:29:56.199 --> 01:30:04.680
it. I wasn't able to eat for 36 hours after basically

01:30:04.680 --> 01:30:09.779
ingesting the Ibogaine. But besides being pretty

01:30:09.779 --> 01:30:14.520
nauseous and miserable that second day, the peak

01:30:14.520 --> 01:30:17.119
of the experience I actually found to be very...

01:30:18.029 --> 01:30:20.149
like i mean it was just a cool experience like

01:30:20.149 --> 01:30:23.189
it feels cool like it feels good you have this

01:30:23.189 --> 01:30:25.489
intuitive sense that it's like healing your brain

01:30:25.489 --> 01:30:28.630
uh and then you know that coupled with an understanding

01:30:28.630 --> 01:30:31.149
of research and that it probably is having some

01:30:31.149 --> 01:30:34.909
regenerative effects on the brain um just it's

01:30:34.909 --> 01:30:37.229
just a really cool experience to have and i didn't

01:30:37.229 --> 01:30:40.029
have some sort of crazy life review that some

01:30:40.029 --> 01:30:42.649
people have or anything like that but i did have

01:30:42.649 --> 01:30:46.899
an interactive experience with it and um Yeah,

01:30:46.920 --> 01:30:49.359
it was just really great to be cared for like

01:30:49.359 --> 01:30:51.800
that. The experience at Mission Within was amazing.

01:30:52.560 --> 01:30:55.779
And, you know, I'm definitely a big proponent

01:30:55.779 --> 01:31:00.100
of it now. I was going to ask you that, but you

01:31:00.100 --> 01:31:01.960
just answered the question because so many people,

01:31:01.979 --> 01:31:05.600
when they do, you know, ayahuasca, 5 -MeO DMT,

01:31:05.619 --> 01:31:09.079
you know, Ibogaine, there's this assumption that

01:31:09.079 --> 01:31:11.859
it was when... They were at war when they were,

01:31:11.859 --> 01:31:14.199
you know, in a fire engine that was going to

01:31:14.199 --> 01:31:17.220
be where all their trauma was. But so often it's

01:31:17.220 --> 01:31:19.560
actually earlier life that they really start

01:31:19.560 --> 01:31:22.359
unpacking. Did you have any kind of semblance

01:31:22.359 --> 01:31:24.140
of that at all? Or was it, as you said, more

01:31:24.140 --> 01:31:28.199
of just an experiential thing this time? Yeah,

01:31:28.220 --> 01:31:32.399
I would say. There's nothing really that stands

01:31:32.399 --> 01:31:35.699
out to me in my life as a significant source

01:31:35.699 --> 01:31:39.380
of trauma or behavior, like modification, like

01:31:39.380 --> 01:31:48.899
any big event. But I still have, I tend to have

01:31:48.899 --> 01:31:51.939
a blunted response when it comes to a lot of

01:31:51.939 --> 01:31:55.970
psychedelics. taken like very high doses of mushrooms

01:31:55.970 --> 01:31:59.350
before like extremely high doses and i just i

01:31:59.350 --> 01:32:02.409
don't have a huge experience compared to what

01:32:02.409 --> 01:32:04.470
a lot of people would have at even like a quarter

01:32:04.470 --> 01:32:09.149
of that dose um so i just yeah tend to have some

01:32:09.149 --> 01:32:12.050
sort of blunted experience in that sense and

01:32:12.050 --> 01:32:14.510
i don't know why that is it might have to do

01:32:14.510 --> 01:32:18.069
with with the tism or something but either way

01:32:18.069 --> 01:32:24.510
um yeah i didn't have anything obvious that connected

01:32:24.510 --> 01:32:30.289
it to something from childhood. Um, and yeah,

01:32:30.390 --> 01:32:32.550
there's, there's nothing like scary about the

01:32:32.550 --> 01:32:35.789
experience. It was pretty pleasant. I felt good.

01:32:35.890 --> 01:32:38.810
I did feel euphoric and until I needed to go

01:32:38.810 --> 01:32:41.310
get up to go to the bathroom and just, I get

01:32:41.310 --> 01:32:43.529
nauseous really easily. So as soon as I moved,

01:32:43.569 --> 01:32:49.970
I was just, you know, the entire time. But yeah,

01:32:50.069 --> 01:32:52.350
I can't really think of anything that directly

01:32:52.350 --> 01:32:54.810
tied it to my childhood. I didn't have like visions,

01:32:54.850 --> 01:32:58.210
but I did have an interactive experience that

01:32:58.210 --> 01:33:01.630
I think helped me to feel more emotion. That's,

01:33:01.630 --> 01:33:03.329
you know, I struggle with empathy a little bit.

01:33:03.350 --> 01:33:06.010
And I think that's part of my personality that

01:33:06.010 --> 01:33:09.930
I'm trying to work on. But I definitely was able

01:33:09.930 --> 01:33:13.710
to feel a lot of a wider range of emotions during

01:33:13.710 --> 01:33:15.850
that experience. And that was very helpful for

01:33:15.850 --> 01:33:20.630
me after that. I've been offered multiple times

01:33:20.630 --> 01:33:23.270
to go to everything from Ibogaine to Ayahuasca.

01:33:23.350 --> 01:33:27.210
And I was just asked to go with the group literally

01:33:27.210 --> 01:33:29.810
yesterday. And at first I'm like, well, because

01:33:29.810 --> 01:33:33.329
my draw is to MDMA specifically. That's something

01:33:33.329 --> 01:33:35.369
that I've done recreationally that had an absolute

01:33:35.369 --> 01:33:39.890
blast on. But then I was like, well, why have

01:33:39.890 --> 01:33:42.640
I got resistance? Because I think it's... uh

01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:45.279
you know psilocybin ayahuasca on on the second

01:33:45.279 --> 01:33:47.340
day and i'm like but why am i resisting this

01:33:47.340 --> 01:33:49.199
and i know i've got brain fog i know i've got

01:33:49.199 --> 01:33:52.439
a completely blunted adrenal response from from

01:33:52.439 --> 01:33:55.199
a career in the fire service i jumped out of

01:33:55.199 --> 01:33:58.819
a helicopter on a skydive in cairo and it was

01:33:58.819 --> 01:34:00.819
kind of like a self -experiment because the first

01:34:00.819 --> 01:34:02.779
time i skydived it scared the shit out of me

01:34:02.779 --> 01:34:07.189
prior to it and zero zero adrenaline so okay

01:34:07.189 --> 01:34:10.930
i am definitely broken so so and then so you

01:34:10.930 --> 01:34:12.529
got the brain fogs and the other things so i

01:34:12.529 --> 01:34:14.350
was like okay even though i don't have anything

01:34:14.350 --> 01:34:17.130
that's bothering me air quotes there is definitely

01:34:17.130 --> 01:34:19.869
an inhibition of some sort so it's going to be

01:34:19.869 --> 01:34:22.609
interesting when i kind of go through those with

01:34:22.609 --> 01:34:24.970
an open mind to see what does present itself

01:34:24.970 --> 01:34:27.170
because i don't have that thing i don't have

01:34:27.170 --> 01:34:29.470
that call that haunts me i don't have sleepless

01:34:29.470 --> 01:34:33.800
nights but that being said there's still There's

01:34:33.800 --> 01:34:35.739
obviously a box in there locked away somewhere.

01:34:35.979 --> 01:34:39.399
So it's going to be quite interesting to be able

01:34:39.399 --> 01:34:41.539
to report on that in a few months and talk about

01:34:41.539 --> 01:34:47.199
what I saw, hopefully. Wait, what are you planning

01:34:47.199 --> 01:34:51.140
on doing? This will be, I think it's MDMA the

01:34:51.140 --> 01:34:54.800
first day and then I believe psilocybin and ayahuasca

01:34:54.800 --> 01:34:56.720
the second day, if I'm not mistaken, but not

01:34:56.720 --> 01:35:01.109
either game. Okay, interesting. Yeah, I... Yeah,

01:35:01.149 --> 01:35:03.789
I think there can be value in any of them. It

01:35:03.789 --> 01:35:10.189
just depends what you're doing it for. I do love

01:35:10.189 --> 01:35:13.090
that Ibogaine seems to have a unique regenerative

01:35:13.090 --> 01:35:16.229
effect for the brain in terms of how it upregulates

01:35:16.229 --> 01:35:19.670
GDNF and BDNF. And it does that a little bit

01:35:19.670 --> 01:35:22.750
uniquely compared to other psychedelics. But

01:35:22.750 --> 01:35:28.250
yeah, people definitely have really, really transformative

01:35:28.250 --> 01:35:30.800
experiences with Ibogaine. with any of those,

01:35:30.819 --> 01:35:35.659
you know, drugs, medicines, whatever. You mentioned

01:35:35.659 --> 01:35:39.439
about Dan Cirillo being a mentor. I had an amazing

01:35:39.439 --> 01:35:42.020
conversation with Dan. I think it was very shortly

01:35:42.020 --> 01:35:44.399
after he had done, I'm assuming it was Ibogaine

01:35:44.399 --> 01:35:46.640
as well. I think it was. And he talked about,

01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:49.399
you know, alcohol being a huge coping mechanism

01:35:49.399 --> 01:35:51.579
for him. I think it was margarita, as if my memory

01:35:51.579 --> 01:35:54.439
serves me right. And he literally came out of

01:35:54.439 --> 01:35:58.270
that not wanting a drink again. Very, very powerful

01:35:58.270 --> 01:36:00.590
story. But sadly, I think it was only a couple

01:36:00.590 --> 01:36:02.750
of years after we did the interview that he passed

01:36:02.750 --> 01:36:06.409
away. So talk to me about who Dan was. Let's

01:36:06.409 --> 01:36:08.409
talk about it for a moment. So people are reminded

01:36:08.409 --> 01:36:11.789
of the, you know, the incredible human that you

01:36:11.789 --> 01:36:16.510
guys lost in your profession. Yeah. So Dan Cirillo

01:36:16.510 --> 01:36:20.439
was. Interestingly, in my Centennial Buds class,

01:36:20.579 --> 01:36:26.140
he was in 194 in 1993, and then I was in 294

01:36:26.140 --> 01:36:35.550
in 2012, 2013. And Dan was in the SEAL teams

01:36:35.550 --> 01:36:38.850
for, I believe, 13 years. After he got out, he

01:36:38.850 --> 01:36:41.590
worked in executive protection for a few different

01:36:41.590 --> 01:36:45.569
companies. And he had just transitioned to like

01:36:45.569 --> 01:36:52.350
owning CrossFit gyms when I met him. And Dan,

01:36:52.710 --> 01:36:55.970
like I, you know, I never paid Dan anything besides

01:36:55.970 --> 01:36:58.130
like I eventually was like cleaning bathrooms

01:36:58.130 --> 01:37:02.760
and cleaning the gym and stuff. He pretty immediately

01:37:02.760 --> 01:37:06.840
just took me on and invested so much time and

01:37:06.840 --> 01:37:10.760
effort and money into preparing me for BUDS.

01:37:11.100 --> 01:37:16.640
He brought me to a SEAL fit camp that he had

01:37:16.640 --> 01:37:20.279
to give up a couple thousand dollars for me and

01:37:20.279 --> 01:37:22.779
two other of his students. We all graduated in

01:37:22.779 --> 01:37:27.640
the same class, by the way. He did that for all

01:37:27.640 --> 01:37:31.520
of us just to help prepare us. He never asked

01:37:31.520 --> 01:37:35.460
for anything in return. He was just incredibly

01:37:35.460 --> 01:37:37.960
gracious with his time. He's the reason that

01:37:37.960 --> 01:37:46.420
I train a bunch of students at University of

01:37:46.420 --> 01:37:49.319
South Carolina who are in ROTC and want to be

01:37:49.319 --> 01:37:52.140
SEAL officers or they are enlisting after they

01:37:52.140 --> 01:37:56.500
finish their program. Um, you know, I've, I'm

01:37:56.500 --> 01:37:59.239
very against, I just feel like I need to like

01:37:59.239 --> 01:38:01.420
give back to them. And so I'm just going to train,

01:38:01.479 --> 01:38:03.520
train you if you're willing to put in some work

01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:06.199
and listen to what I have to say, um, that I'm

01:38:06.199 --> 01:38:11.239
happy to, to do this for you. And yeah, so that,

01:38:11.340 --> 01:38:15.539
that was Dan and Dan helped me get a, you know,

01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:18.100
he helped me get both of the jobs I got as soon

01:38:18.100 --> 01:38:21.619
as I was out of the Navy. um it's probably probably

01:38:21.619 --> 01:38:23.640
why i'm having a harder time this time getting

01:38:23.640 --> 01:38:26.460
a job even though i'm like overall more qualified

01:38:26.460 --> 01:38:31.119
um so yeah dan dan was such a big part of my

01:38:31.119 --> 01:38:34.060
life and i know like a lot of people felt very

01:38:34.060 --> 01:38:38.779
very impacted by him um and it was it was always

01:38:38.779 --> 01:38:42.159
pretty widely known by people at his gym that

01:38:42.159 --> 01:38:45.350
he didn't have the best like uh attitude towards

01:38:45.350 --> 01:38:48.710
uh you know civilians who were complaining about

01:38:48.710 --> 01:38:52.069
something silly at the gym and you could you

01:38:52.069 --> 01:38:54.369
could see you know he had some like anger issues

01:38:54.369 --> 01:38:57.390
in certain situations and stuff like that and

01:38:57.390 --> 01:39:02.090
he never showed it to me but i you know my understanding

01:39:02.090 --> 01:39:04.550
is the drinking started to get a lot worse his

01:39:04.550 --> 01:39:09.109
health got worse um his his problems with anger

01:39:09.109 --> 01:39:13.020
were getting worse and And yeah, then after he

01:39:13.020 --> 01:39:15.600
did Ibogaine and 5 -MeO -DMT at the Mission Within,

01:39:15.859 --> 01:39:19.119
everyone's like, oh, what happened to you? Why

01:39:19.119 --> 01:39:23.300
are you so happy now? So yeah, and that was amazing.

01:39:23.579 --> 01:39:28.159
I think the people who go into those retreats

01:39:28.159 --> 01:39:32.340
with... Honestly, I think a big part of it is

01:39:32.340 --> 01:39:35.239
the more brain injury you have, the bigger response

01:39:35.239 --> 01:39:37.520
you're going to have to the treatment. I think

01:39:37.520 --> 01:39:41.460
another thing that... at least anecdotally i've

01:39:41.460 --> 01:39:46.939
noticed is it seems like people who are a little

01:39:46.939 --> 01:39:50.079
bit older so maybe their 40s or 50s and really

01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:53.619
haven't had exposure to any sort of other drugs

01:39:53.619 --> 01:39:56.340
they'll go and have very very transformative

01:39:56.340 --> 01:40:02.500
experiences at these retreats um and yeah potentially

01:40:02.500 --> 01:40:05.140
if a lot of the reason for the alcohol consumption

01:40:05.140 --> 01:40:09.920
was related to certain habits and exacerbated

01:40:09.920 --> 01:40:13.579
by brain injury and you're helping to repair

01:40:13.579 --> 01:40:15.380
some of that brain injury then yeah a lot of

01:40:15.380 --> 01:40:18.800
those things can can just kind of get fixed seemingly

01:40:18.800 --> 01:40:22.619
overnight and there's also a lot of push around

01:40:22.619 --> 01:40:26.800
not treating ibogaine or any of these therapies

01:40:26.800 --> 01:40:30.159
as cures for anything and that there's still

01:40:30.159 --> 01:40:33.439
a lot of work required around around the experience

01:40:33.439 --> 01:40:38.470
but um you know, regardless if it's having a

01:40:38.470 --> 01:40:41.409
regenerative effect on the brain that was limiting

01:40:41.409 --> 01:40:44.909
you in a pretty wide range of areas and you fix

01:40:44.909 --> 01:40:46.810
that, like you're going to have a pretty immediate

01:40:46.810 --> 01:40:49.789
fix. Um, you know, there's still psychological

01:40:49.789 --> 01:40:55.090
work to be done after that. But, um, yeah, that's

01:40:55.090 --> 01:41:00.949
Dan. Dan was awesome. Uh, he, he did a lot for

01:41:00.949 --> 01:41:07.260
me. Um, And, yeah, obviously I was very bummed

01:41:07.260 --> 01:41:10.159
because he had a stroke a couple years before

01:41:10.159 --> 01:41:12.880
his heart attack. And after that happened, you

01:41:12.880 --> 01:41:17.220
know, his mobility got impaired quite a bit.

01:41:17.279 --> 01:41:19.760
He wasn't able to exercise as much. He would

01:41:19.760 --> 01:41:22.779
tell me he was, you know, it was a struggle to

01:41:22.779 --> 01:41:26.100
walk up a flight of stairs. And, you know, but,

01:41:26.100 --> 01:41:28.899
yeah, I wasn't expecting him to have a heart

01:41:28.899 --> 01:41:34.069
attack. And unfortunately, that happened in 2023.

01:41:34.649 --> 01:41:40.010
So yeah, that's Dan. Dan was a breacher, wasn't

01:41:40.010 --> 01:41:43.789
he too? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, not only was he

01:41:43.789 --> 01:41:47.550
in a pretty heavy hitting time for the SEAL teams,

01:41:47.750 --> 01:41:51.989
but he was also exposed to a ton of blasts. And

01:41:51.989 --> 01:41:54.710
obviously, that compounds a bunch of stuff. I

01:41:54.710 --> 01:41:57.329
think he's probably in a lot of fights too. So

01:41:57.329 --> 01:42:02.039
that didn't help. Yeah. Going back to Ibogaine,

01:42:02.119 --> 01:42:04.399
when you were talking about the culture of drinking,

01:42:04.859 --> 01:42:08.199
one of the things that, again, through this nine

01:42:08.199 --> 01:42:11.060
-year education that I've had with all these

01:42:11.060 --> 01:42:14.600
guests, I realized that the way, certainly the

01:42:14.600 --> 01:42:17.039
group that I'm aware of, the first responder

01:42:17.039 --> 01:42:21.119
professions, the way that we are selected, aside

01:42:21.119 --> 01:42:22.899
from obviously the physical and written tests,

01:42:22.979 --> 01:42:26.460
is the psych test and the polygraph. And you

01:42:26.460 --> 01:42:29.159
speak to enough people in the psychology, psychiatry

01:42:29.159 --> 01:42:32.699
space. the tests that they give us, the MMPI

01:42:32.699 --> 01:42:35.539
was never meant to be a standalone test. It's

01:42:35.539 --> 01:42:38.079
part of forensic psychology as a gamut of tests

01:42:38.079 --> 01:42:41.140
to create a profile of someone. So we've got

01:42:41.140 --> 01:42:43.279
this kind of box checking test at the front.

01:42:43.619 --> 01:42:46.060
You know, you do a talk with a psychologist,

01:42:46.100 --> 01:42:49.810
my most recent one. she was a pack rat so her

01:42:49.810 --> 01:42:52.930
own mental health is questionable um and then

01:42:52.930 --> 01:42:54.989
you have the polygraph which i say i lied through

01:42:54.989 --> 01:42:58.109
several times i did mdma i did um psilocybin

01:42:58.109 --> 01:43:00.510
when i was in japan actually psilocybin was legal

01:43:00.510 --> 01:43:03.569
at the time but you know ironically those are

01:43:03.569 --> 01:43:06.170
the things that we just um uh you know disqualified

01:43:06.170 --> 01:43:08.750
for and now we're using the same compounds to

01:43:08.750 --> 01:43:11.920
heal people so there's an irony for you But what

01:43:11.920 --> 01:43:15.079
I realize is because so many of us called to

01:43:15.079 --> 01:43:20.439
service do have some things prior, what a beautiful

01:43:20.439 --> 01:43:23.420
opportunity to heal at the front door, whether

01:43:23.420 --> 01:43:26.140
it's through therapy sessions, through a probationary

01:43:26.140 --> 01:43:29.260
year, or whether it's even through Ibogaine or

01:43:29.260 --> 01:43:32.840
ayahuasca or something at the beginning. Because

01:43:32.840 --> 01:43:35.859
then I wonder... Would there be the same drinking

01:43:35.859 --> 01:43:39.319
culture in military, fire, police, EMS that we

01:43:39.319 --> 01:43:43.119
have if you were able to heal from day one instead

01:43:43.119 --> 01:43:45.939
of kind of pushing it down 10, 15 years later?

01:43:47.159 --> 01:43:53.220
Yeah, I think it is a difficult thing to intertwine

01:43:53.220 --> 01:43:56.180
with it, especially with how the military and

01:43:56.180 --> 01:43:59.699
government views. That stuff right now, it's

01:43:59.699 --> 01:44:01.739
obvious when you're going to the recruiter and

01:44:01.739 --> 01:44:05.079
they either have to disqualify you or prompt

01:44:05.079 --> 01:44:07.140
you to say something different because you didn't

01:44:07.140 --> 01:44:08.899
know that you were supposed to lie about everything

01:44:08.899 --> 01:44:14.979
you've ever done going into it. But yeah, I think

01:44:14.979 --> 01:44:18.899
if we were able to move to a place where that

01:44:18.899 --> 01:44:23.229
stuff is being integrated more frequently. You

01:44:23.229 --> 01:44:26.270
know, if you were able to come back from deployment,

01:44:26.409 --> 01:44:28.729
I can't remember who I heard saying this, but

01:44:28.729 --> 01:44:31.390
they were, I think it was on a podcast, but they

01:44:31.390 --> 01:44:33.609
were talking about, you know, you'd come back

01:44:33.609 --> 01:44:36.470
from deployment and do MDMA together or something

01:44:36.470 --> 01:44:38.510
like that. And so they're just blowing off steam

01:44:38.510 --> 01:44:42.329
by going to whorehouses and drinking. You know,

01:44:42.350 --> 01:44:44.869
maybe they both blow off steam, but I think.

01:44:45.770 --> 01:44:48.670
One would certainly have a more productive effect

01:44:48.670 --> 01:44:52.930
long term. And yeah, so I do think that addressing

01:44:52.930 --> 01:44:56.550
some of the issues that cause people to go into

01:44:56.550 --> 01:44:58.869
those areas, you know, into those fields in the

01:44:58.869 --> 01:45:02.130
first place would allow for better longevity

01:45:02.130 --> 01:45:04.989
in the career. And they'd also just probably

01:45:04.989 --> 01:45:08.130
lead to like healthier, happier people. And yeah,

01:45:08.149 --> 01:45:13.159
hopefully get rid of the. or change the views

01:45:13.159 --> 01:45:15.279
a little bit around the drinking -like sleep

01:45:15.279 --> 01:45:27.359
culture. I've always said the same FDA that disproved

01:45:27.359 --> 01:45:30.600
or disallowed the use of MDMA -assisted psychotherapy

01:45:30.600 --> 01:45:33.460
in this most recent application was the same

01:45:33.460 --> 01:45:37.300
FDA that approved OxyContin. So just because

01:45:37.300 --> 01:45:40.119
a government organization has this kind of prohibition

01:45:40.119 --> 01:45:42.100
stance, which if you look at drug prohibition,

01:45:42.119 --> 01:45:45.779
it's got a history of job justification and racism

01:45:45.779 --> 01:45:49.220
in the 30s. But just because a government organization

01:45:49.220 --> 01:45:51.920
says it's wrong. doesn't mean it's wrong at all.

01:45:52.079 --> 01:45:55.479
It's just a law. So I hope that there is this

01:45:55.479 --> 01:45:58.180
kind of 180 where, as you alluded to, there's

01:45:58.180 --> 01:45:59.960
recreational, and we're not talking about that.

01:46:00.020 --> 01:46:02.279
We're talking about specific clinical application

01:46:02.279 --> 01:46:06.079
of some of these healing modalities so that we

01:46:06.079 --> 01:46:08.819
can create a high performer with longevity at

01:46:08.819 --> 01:46:12.319
the front door. But if bureaucracy is completely...

01:46:12.729 --> 01:46:15.729
you know, backwards, maybe even because of drug

01:46:15.729 --> 01:46:18.409
companies, because some of these natural therapies

01:46:18.409 --> 01:46:22.770
are very, very effective and therefore not going

01:46:22.770 --> 01:46:26.069
to create a lifelong user. You know, we're going

01:46:26.069 --> 01:46:29.170
to basically be stopping the very progress that

01:46:29.170 --> 01:46:32.909
we need to heal our first responders and our

01:46:32.909 --> 01:46:37.840
military members. Yeah. And on that FDA MDMA

01:46:37.840 --> 01:46:42.000
note, are you familiar with what happened with

01:46:42.000 --> 01:46:45.420
that rejection? Like why the FDA rejected MDMA?

01:46:46.199 --> 01:46:48.880
People have told me, but I've got a memory, like

01:46:48.880 --> 01:46:51.439
a sieve, like a colander. So just remind me again,

01:46:51.500 --> 01:46:54.680
so I don't put my foot in my mouth. So I've never

01:46:54.680 --> 01:46:57.300
talked about this, so I'm not going to articulate

01:46:57.300 --> 01:47:02.380
it perfectly, but there... I've listened to Hamilton

01:47:02.380 --> 01:47:06.000
Morris speak a lot about this because I think

01:47:06.000 --> 01:47:07.920
he's a great source of information when it comes

01:47:07.920 --> 01:47:12.079
to this stuff. But he was saying that there was

01:47:12.079 --> 01:47:16.720
a woman who I believe her grandfather was going

01:47:16.720 --> 01:47:21.140
to give a lot of his money through his will to

01:47:21.140 --> 01:47:24.680
her when he died, but he had a life -changing

01:47:24.680 --> 01:47:30.909
experience with MDMA and ended up donating. you

01:47:30.909 --> 01:47:33.930
know, like all of his will to, I think it was

01:47:33.930 --> 01:47:38.050
to MAPS to help fund psychedelic research. And

01:47:38.050 --> 01:47:40.510
she was bitter about it. So then she got involved

01:47:40.510 --> 01:47:44.289
with some other companies that basically put

01:47:44.289 --> 01:47:49.250
hecklers at the FDA meeting to bring up things

01:47:49.250 --> 01:47:55.409
about MDMA that were either completely misrepresented

01:47:55.409 --> 01:48:00.310
or just not related to MDMA at all. There's one

01:48:00.310 --> 01:48:06.310
instance of, I think it was a case of abuse between

01:48:06.310 --> 01:48:12.869
a therapist and a participant. But it wasn't

01:48:12.869 --> 01:48:15.109
even abuse and it was involving ketamine. So

01:48:15.109 --> 01:48:17.729
it wasn't even involving MDMA. And in the FDA

01:48:17.729 --> 01:48:21.069
meeting, they said it was MDMA. But that's kind

01:48:21.069 --> 01:48:23.229
of the gist of what I know about it. But it sounds

01:48:23.229 --> 01:48:28.539
pretty... pretty silly. And it is a big bummer

01:48:28.539 --> 01:48:32.220
that, you know, we got that far and then got

01:48:32.220 --> 01:48:35.840
kind of sidelined because of some, some pretty

01:48:35.840 --> 01:48:39.600
stupid things. Yeah. Well, I know the member

01:48:39.600 --> 01:48:42.460
of the FDA that approved OxyContin then went

01:48:42.460 --> 01:48:44.560
and worked for Purdue Pharma shortly after that.

01:48:44.920 --> 01:48:47.779
So after they completely lied about the results

01:48:47.779 --> 01:48:49.699
and the addiction and all that things. Yeah.

01:48:50.510 --> 01:48:51.909
One thing, I'm just looking at my notes that

01:48:51.909 --> 01:48:53.789
I meant to ask you before when we were talking

01:48:53.789 --> 01:48:56.630
about thermoregulation before we start rounding

01:48:56.630 --> 01:49:00.729
off. It seemed to me throughout my career that

01:49:00.729 --> 01:49:05.189
the older I got, the worse I was able to thermoregulate.

01:49:05.229 --> 01:49:08.510
My career spanned 14 years in the fire service

01:49:08.510 --> 01:49:11.789
specifically. And I was in the gear a lot. I'd

01:49:11.789 --> 01:49:13.550
work out in the gear a lot, even though now we're

01:49:13.550 --> 01:49:15.489
learning that there's PFAS and all kinds of stuff

01:49:15.489 --> 01:49:16.949
in the gear that probably shouldn't have been

01:49:16.949 --> 01:49:20.579
wearing it as much. But have you seen any studies

01:49:20.579 --> 01:49:23.399
as far as the ability to thermoregulate versus

01:49:23.399 --> 01:49:29.939
age? So I can't point to any specific research,

01:49:30.079 --> 01:49:35.039
but what I do feel confident saying is that in

01:49:35.039 --> 01:49:37.899
a lot of situations, the relationship between

01:49:37.899 --> 01:49:43.380
age and a performance parameter can largely be

01:49:43.380 --> 01:49:48.220
explained by behavioral changes rather than...

01:49:48.699 --> 01:49:51.920
uh some sort of like physiological change that

01:49:51.920 --> 01:49:54.659
occurs with aging and at some point there is

01:49:54.659 --> 01:49:57.319
going to be a change because of aging but i think

01:49:57.319 --> 01:50:01.760
it's just not as relevant as people like to make

01:50:01.760 --> 01:50:04.899
it out to be so i don't i don't know if specifically

01:50:04.899 --> 01:50:07.579
there's something with aging and thermoregulation

01:50:07.579 --> 01:50:13.859
that would heavily impact So I tend to first

01:50:13.859 --> 01:50:18.159
jump to thoughts about, are you exercising less

01:50:18.159 --> 01:50:20.859
than you used to be? Is your activity different

01:50:20.859 --> 01:50:25.840
than it used to be? Did you gain weight since

01:50:25.840 --> 01:50:28.960
the times that you're comparing yourself to?

01:50:30.060 --> 01:50:32.659
Certain things like that. I think usually it's

01:50:32.659 --> 01:50:36.960
more attributable to how you're training and

01:50:36.960 --> 01:50:40.810
the rest of your activity levels. But yeah, I

01:50:40.810 --> 01:50:43.989
don't know for sure if there's, you know, something

01:50:43.989 --> 01:50:48.489
very obvious that because of your age would be

01:50:48.489 --> 01:50:52.189
impairing your thermoregulation. See, I was training

01:50:52.189 --> 01:50:54.170
doing CrossFit the whole time. So maybe I just

01:50:54.170 --> 01:50:57.710
became a giant pussy. As simple as that. I do.

01:50:57.869 --> 01:51:02.449
I do think, you know, there's appeal with CrossFit

01:51:02.449 --> 01:51:07.970
and the time. that it takes to do a CrossFit

01:51:07.970 --> 01:51:11.289
workout and the community aspect of CrossFit.

01:51:11.390 --> 01:51:14.649
But I think as a whole, even for situations where

01:51:14.649 --> 01:51:18.550
you'd think it would be very beneficial, so any

01:51:18.550 --> 01:51:21.170
sort of tactical profession where it seems like

01:51:21.170 --> 01:51:23.510
the CrossFit workout is very functional for that,

01:51:23.670 --> 01:51:30.279
I think people fall into a trap of... thinking

01:51:30.279 --> 01:51:32.699
that that means it's going to be the most effective

01:51:32.699 --> 01:51:37.199
way to prepare for those fields and you know

01:51:37.199 --> 01:51:40.920
example i like to give is you if you were training

01:51:40.920 --> 01:51:44.560
to have the highest one rep max bench that you

01:51:44.560 --> 01:51:47.579
could or run the fastest mile time that you could

01:51:47.579 --> 01:51:50.859
you wouldn't run a fast mile every day you wouldn't

01:51:50.859 --> 01:51:54.479
max out your bench every day um maybe there's

01:51:54.479 --> 01:51:56.279
an application for that sort of thing in the

01:51:56.279 --> 01:51:59.140
short term where you are very closely mimicking

01:51:59.140 --> 01:52:01.859
the demands of the event but for the most part

01:52:01.859 --> 01:52:04.119
you'd spend most of the time doing something

01:52:04.119 --> 01:52:07.939
else that's eventually going to push you in the

01:52:07.939 --> 01:52:10.699
right direction so in six months or a year you're

01:52:10.699 --> 01:52:12.939
producing much better results than you would

01:52:12.939 --> 01:52:15.380
otherwise and another example of this is like

01:52:15.380 --> 01:52:16.779
you know i was talking about christian bloom

01:52:16.779 --> 01:52:21.039
and philip the triathlete before um you know

01:52:21.039 --> 01:52:27.109
he does a lot of threshold training well actually

01:52:27.109 --> 01:52:29.829
no sorry he's a bad example but like um there's

01:52:29.829 --> 01:52:32.909
they're the Jakob Ingebrigtsen the Norwegian

01:52:32.909 --> 01:52:37.270
runner he usually competes in the 1500 to 5k

01:52:37.270 --> 01:52:41.750
I believe and he has some world records and you

01:52:41.750 --> 01:52:46.029
know the his 1500 meter time is I think sub 330

01:52:47.130 --> 01:52:50.770
And he is running over 100 miles a week. So he's

01:52:50.770 --> 01:52:53.609
doing huge volumes of threshold training, huge

01:52:53.609 --> 01:52:56.710
volumes of low intensity training, and a little

01:52:56.710 --> 01:52:59.029
bit of faster work. But the majority of training

01:52:59.029 --> 01:53:01.829
isn't spent running at the intensity that he

01:53:01.829 --> 01:53:05.130
actually races at. It's usually a much lower

01:53:05.130 --> 01:53:08.050
intensity than that. And that's just... a different

01:53:08.050 --> 01:53:11.810
way to distribute training to optimize the amount

01:53:11.810 --> 01:53:14.670
of volume you can get while still touching on

01:53:14.670 --> 01:53:18.649
physiological intensities that actually shift

01:53:18.649 --> 01:53:20.829
your progress in the long term rather than just

01:53:20.829 --> 01:53:23.970
a short -term specificity advantage that you

01:53:23.970 --> 01:53:26.470
get. And so I think when people are doing CrossFit

01:53:26.470 --> 01:53:29.170
to prepare for any sort of tactical profession,

01:53:29.449 --> 01:53:32.930
they're missing out on a lot of different types

01:53:32.930 --> 01:53:36.039
of training. you know you might be time constrained

01:53:36.039 --> 01:53:38.359
so this might not be practical for everyone but

01:53:38.359 --> 01:53:41.859
um i i do think there is a benefit to doing high

01:53:41.859 --> 01:53:44.380
volumes of low intensity endurance training you

01:53:44.380 --> 01:53:46.220
know it's not super stressful it doesn't have

01:53:46.220 --> 01:53:49.300
a super detrimental effect on the other training

01:53:49.300 --> 01:53:52.460
you do but it still is able to robustly increase

01:53:52.460 --> 01:53:57.899
cardiovascular adaptations i do it's not even

01:53:57.899 --> 01:54:00.000
crossfit anymore it's wolf brigades programming

01:54:00.000 --> 01:54:03.199
so it's um More focus on the strength training.

01:54:03.279 --> 01:54:05.520
Now we use a lot of unilateral, heavy, heavy

01:54:05.520 --> 01:54:07.579
kettlebells, you know, maces, those kinds of

01:54:07.579 --> 01:54:10.960
things alongside some high intensity stuff. The

01:54:10.960 --> 01:54:14.420
class that I teach and usually do with my athletes

01:54:14.420 --> 01:54:16.619
is a lot of sandbags, sleds, that kind of thing.

01:54:17.539 --> 01:54:20.199
If I was going to add what you're talking about,

01:54:20.239 --> 01:54:22.979
some lower intensity, maybe longer runs, what

01:54:22.979 --> 01:54:25.720
would be the frequency per week to compliment

01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:31.250
the strength training? Oh, so. So very nuanced.

01:54:31.689 --> 01:54:35.170
Depends how fit these people are. Depends how

01:54:35.170 --> 01:54:39.609
important physical performance is for them. It

01:54:39.609 --> 01:54:42.229
depends what their current limitations are. Obviously,

01:54:42.229 --> 01:54:45.130
you have some genetic freaks who they don't even

01:54:45.130 --> 01:54:47.289
need to do the aerobic exercise and they're going

01:54:47.289 --> 01:54:50.569
to perform well. I still would suggest that they're

01:54:50.569 --> 01:54:52.689
going to be better off if they do some of it

01:54:52.689 --> 01:55:01.890
than not. Generally, when I think about training,

01:55:02.210 --> 01:55:05.810
we were talking about variation before. And I

01:55:05.810 --> 01:55:08.170
think one of the great ways to add variation

01:55:08.170 --> 01:55:11.390
is having, you know, make your hard days hard,

01:55:11.449 --> 01:55:15.029
make your easy days easy, and definitely have

01:55:15.029 --> 01:55:18.189
periods of rest. One common theme that's seen

01:55:18.189 --> 01:55:22.390
in... very high level endurance athletes is typically

01:55:22.390 --> 01:55:25.369
they're not doing multiple consecutive days of

01:55:25.369 --> 01:55:27.529
high intensity training unless they're you know

01:55:27.529 --> 01:55:30.069
doing it for a very specific purpose so there's

01:55:30.069 --> 01:55:32.689
a lot of undulation between higher and low intensity

01:55:32.689 --> 01:55:36.109
training um and in the case of jacob ingebrigtsen

01:55:36.109 --> 01:55:39.489
i believe almost always he is having at least

01:55:39.489 --> 01:55:42.630
a full day between harder workouts and sometimes

01:55:42.630 --> 01:55:45.789
multiple days with the rest being filled in by

01:55:45.789 --> 01:55:49.319
easy training so i think If you think about it

01:55:49.319 --> 01:55:51.000
like that, then, you know, you potentially be

01:55:51.000 --> 01:55:54.340
getting two or three days a week of this low

01:55:54.340 --> 01:55:57.079
intensity training and that doesn't need to be

01:55:57.079 --> 01:55:59.689
running, right? It could be. I think in a lot

01:55:59.689 --> 01:56:02.949
of ways, riding an air bike or doing a rower

01:56:02.949 --> 01:56:04.970
or spin bike or something like that can be a

01:56:04.970 --> 01:56:08.829
better alternative because it interferes even

01:56:08.829 --> 01:56:11.430
less than running would with your ability to

01:56:11.430 --> 01:56:13.430
do your strength training or your high intensity

01:56:13.430 --> 01:56:16.090
training just because it has lower muscular load,

01:56:16.189 --> 01:56:18.029
but you're still getting the cardiovascular stimulus

01:56:18.029 --> 01:56:22.449
that you would get with running. Brilliant. Before

01:56:22.449 --> 01:56:24.310
we go to the closing questions, are there any

01:56:24.310 --> 01:56:26.770
other areas of human performance that you want

01:56:26.770 --> 01:56:30.390
to make sure that we discuss? I don't think so.

01:56:31.489 --> 01:56:34.909
We've hit a lot. Okay. All right. Well, then

01:56:34.909 --> 01:56:37.229
the first question I'd love to ask then, is there

01:56:37.229 --> 01:56:39.409
a book or are there books that you'd love to

01:56:39.409 --> 01:56:41.609
recommend? It can be related to our discussion

01:56:41.609 --> 01:56:47.470
today or completely unrelated. Oh, that's a tough

01:56:47.470 --> 01:56:52.659
one. You know, I think if you're interested in

01:56:52.659 --> 01:56:55.439
hybrid athletics, Alex Fiat is the hybrid athlete.

01:56:55.600 --> 01:57:00.880
He just came out with a paperback version. Alex

01:57:00.880 --> 01:57:05.159
Fiat's original PDF, The Hybrid Athlete, back

01:57:05.159 --> 01:57:07.739
in like 20... I think he released it in like

01:57:07.739 --> 01:57:10.420
2013 or 14 or something, but I didn't come into

01:57:10.420 --> 01:57:14.899
contact with it until like 2018, 2019. And that

01:57:14.899 --> 01:57:18.920
book is... is pretty awesome. I think it's, I

01:57:18.920 --> 01:57:22.119
think, you know, Alex is incredibly smart and

01:57:22.119 --> 01:57:24.939
incredibly gifted when it comes to understanding

01:57:24.939 --> 01:57:28.340
how humans respond to exercise and different

01:57:28.340 --> 01:57:31.600
ways to, to, to train that can make you better

01:57:31.600 --> 01:57:36.180
for very, very unique situations. Um, so if,

01:57:36.220 --> 01:57:38.060
if you're interested in like the hybrid athlete

01:57:38.060 --> 01:57:41.000
thing, which is pretty popular right now, I think

01:57:41.000 --> 01:57:45.180
he's. Probably the single first resource that

01:57:45.180 --> 01:57:49.760
I would refer most people to. But besides that,

01:57:49.979 --> 01:57:52.739
you know, I'm not, I'm not actually a big reader.

01:57:52.779 --> 01:57:55.520
I consume tons of podcasts. I read some research

01:57:55.520 --> 01:58:00.399
papers, but I don't do much in the way of reading.

01:58:00.539 --> 01:58:03.819
I, right now I'm listening to this audio book

01:58:03.819 --> 01:58:07.779
called the, I think it's called the breakdown

01:58:07.779 --> 01:58:11.869
of the bicameral mind and the. Origin of Consciousness,

01:58:11.949 --> 01:58:15.069
something like that by Julian Jaynes. And the

01:58:15.069 --> 01:58:16.989
reason I started listening to it was because

01:58:16.989 --> 01:58:22.109
Julian Jaynes, who's a psychologist at, I think

01:58:22.109 --> 01:58:24.050
there were two Ivy League schools for like 25

01:58:24.050 --> 01:58:28.170
years, so somewhat reputable at least. But he

01:58:28.170 --> 01:58:30.670
has this theory that the human experience of

01:58:30.670 --> 01:58:33.529
consciousness several thousand years ago was

01:58:33.529 --> 01:58:37.310
not at all how it is now. And some of that had

01:58:37.310 --> 01:58:39.270
to do, the change had to do with the development

01:58:39.270 --> 01:58:43.470
of language. But there used to be an experience

01:58:43.470 --> 01:58:49.369
of, he proposes that humans... thought that they

01:58:49.369 --> 01:58:52.149
were being talked to by gods which was actually

01:58:52.149 --> 01:58:55.210
a separation in the chambers of their mind and

01:58:55.210 --> 01:58:57.130
so there's there's just a different experience

01:58:57.130 --> 01:58:59.710
where you are being talked to and told what to

01:58:59.710 --> 01:59:04.850
do and he kind of suggested that it's has to

01:59:04.850 --> 01:59:06.909
do with the differences in what threshold is

01:59:06.909 --> 01:59:09.170
necessary to hear these voices. And he gives

01:59:09.170 --> 01:59:11.989
a bunch of examples of modern day humans, whether

01:59:11.989 --> 01:59:13.989
it's schizophrenics or in certain high stress

01:59:13.989 --> 01:59:17.470
situations where you do hit a threshold for where

01:59:17.470 --> 01:59:19.970
you're going to start hearing a voice that directs

01:59:19.970 --> 01:59:22.930
you to behave a certain way in a certain situation.

01:59:23.149 --> 01:59:26.119
So he just suggests that. a long time ago that

01:59:26.119 --> 01:59:28.500
the threshold was much lower. The reason I started

01:59:28.500 --> 01:59:31.239
listening to that was because Jonathan Dickinson

01:59:31.239 --> 01:59:34.359
from Ambio was talking in a podcast about how

01:59:34.359 --> 01:59:38.859
the similarities between the bicameral theory

01:59:38.859 --> 01:59:42.819
of mind and the Ibogaine experience where sometimes

01:59:42.819 --> 01:59:45.039
people feel like they're being talked to by gods

01:59:45.039 --> 01:59:48.199
or by... their subconscious or something like

01:59:48.199 --> 01:59:50.760
that. My experience was, or perception of my

01:59:50.760 --> 01:59:52.600
experience was that I was talking to my subconscious

01:59:52.600 --> 01:59:55.699
during the experience, which is really cool.

01:59:56.319 --> 01:59:58.579
But other people perceive that differently. So

01:59:58.579 --> 02:00:01.079
that's why I started reading that. But yeah,

02:00:01.180 --> 02:00:04.100
I'm listening to audio books occasionally, but

02:00:04.100 --> 02:00:07.880
I wouldn't say that anything has really stood

02:00:07.880 --> 02:00:10.340
out to me as that exciting. And I do consume

02:00:10.340 --> 02:00:14.380
a lot of podcasts, you know, sometimes five hours

02:00:14.380 --> 02:00:18.250
a day of podcasts. It's interesting what you

02:00:18.250 --> 02:00:21.229
said about that separation of the mind. One of

02:00:21.229 --> 02:00:23.729
the realizations, again, I've had through this

02:00:23.729 --> 02:00:27.630
learning journey is, you know, there's the old

02:00:27.630 --> 02:00:30.149
school way of talking about suicide was, you

02:00:30.149 --> 02:00:32.210
know, how could they? It's cowardly. It's selfish.

02:00:32.409 --> 02:00:34.930
Think of your family. And then you listen to

02:00:34.930 --> 02:00:37.510
literally hundreds of people that were there,

02:00:37.689 --> 02:00:39.909
many of whom, thank God, never went through with

02:00:39.909 --> 02:00:41.710
the attempt, some of whom survived the attempt.

02:00:43.500 --> 02:00:47.880
Almost every single person said at that point,

02:00:47.899 --> 02:00:50.819
they truly believe that they were the reason

02:00:50.819 --> 02:00:53.800
for their family or their friends pain. And if

02:00:53.800 --> 02:00:56.420
they just remove themselves, everyone will be

02:00:56.420 --> 02:00:58.619
happy. And it's again, we're talking about that

02:00:58.619 --> 02:01:00.439
voice in their mind. They've convinced them that

02:01:00.439 --> 02:01:03.199
very invisible hand that if you stood on the

02:01:03.199 --> 02:01:05.279
top of a tall building on the edge that kind

02:01:05.279 --> 02:01:07.359
of pushes you back when you're healthy, kind

02:01:07.359 --> 02:01:09.180
of has gone around the back now and said, no,

02:01:09.199 --> 02:01:11.560
you should jump. And then you add in the fact

02:01:11.560 --> 02:01:13.850
that you. in a profession where you would die

02:01:13.850 --> 02:01:16.869
for a stranger. Now you've just amplified that.

02:01:16.949 --> 02:01:18.449
And then God forbid, you're a police officer.

02:01:18.510 --> 02:01:20.210
Now you've got the mode of execution strapped

02:01:20.210 --> 02:01:23.710
to your hip as well. But when people see that

02:01:23.710 --> 02:01:26.109
it's not a thing, that it's this perfect storm

02:01:26.109 --> 02:01:28.890
of all these contributing factors from unaddressed

02:01:28.890 --> 02:01:31.170
childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, organizational

02:01:31.170 --> 02:01:34.630
betrayal, side effects of meds, alcohol, et cetera,

02:01:34.710 --> 02:01:37.970
et cetera, et cetera, that they get to this miswiring

02:01:37.970 --> 02:01:41.310
where their brain is literally lying to them.

02:01:41.600 --> 02:01:45.199
Saying you are the reason for your family's pain

02:01:45.199 --> 02:01:48.659
when the reality is, of course, if you take your

02:01:48.659 --> 02:01:50.539
own life, there's going to be even more pain

02:01:50.539 --> 02:01:53.460
on your family and they do love you. So I wonder

02:01:53.460 --> 02:01:56.140
if that's kind of tied into that as well. But

02:01:56.140 --> 02:01:59.420
when there's a dysfunction in the brain, that

02:01:59.420 --> 02:02:01.760
voice is not only there, but it's a distorted

02:02:01.760 --> 02:02:04.989
perception of the world. Yeah, and add in some

02:02:04.989 --> 02:02:07.829
brain injuries on top of that, that compound

02:02:07.829 --> 02:02:11.170
over time. And yeah, it's definitely a recipe

02:02:11.170 --> 02:02:15.090
for doing something that other people perceive

02:02:15.090 --> 02:02:18.229
as selfish, but you're perceiving it as the opposite

02:02:18.229 --> 02:02:22.029
of that. Exactly. And I think that that gives

02:02:22.029 --> 02:02:24.369
some people that are left behind some peace to

02:02:24.369 --> 02:02:26.369
know that actually it was probably terrifying

02:02:26.369 --> 02:02:30.529
and took courage. to to to do that act because

02:02:30.529 --> 02:02:33.010
they believe they were the problem so hopefully

02:02:33.010 --> 02:02:35.350
that you know changes the way people perceive

02:02:35.350 --> 02:02:38.630
the people that they lost yeah back to to the

02:02:38.630 --> 02:02:41.270
books what about television film documentaries

02:02:41.270 --> 02:02:44.989
any of those that you love well obviously if

02:02:44.989 --> 02:02:47.529
you follow i began in waves and war just came

02:02:47.529 --> 02:02:53.119
out on netflix um which you know i think I think

02:02:53.119 --> 02:02:56.500
there are some good things and some less good

02:02:56.500 --> 02:02:59.840
things about how they did it. But either way,

02:02:59.880 --> 02:03:03.300
I think it's going to help bring Ibogaine some

02:03:03.300 --> 02:03:05.159
awareness. And I think that's going to be helpful.

02:03:05.880 --> 02:03:10.439
And it also, it's, you know, it's very engaging.

02:03:10.500 --> 02:03:13.399
It's emotional. It's easy to relate to, even

02:03:13.399 --> 02:03:17.920
if you're not someone who's a Navy SEAL who has

02:03:17.920 --> 02:03:21.430
your trauma that you're... you know wanting to

02:03:21.430 --> 02:03:25.670
fix or whatever um so there's that and i'm always

02:03:25.670 --> 02:03:29.550
yeah looking for for stuff like that of night

02:03:29.550 --> 02:03:32.229
and light is has still not been released which

02:03:32.229 --> 02:03:34.810
is another ibogaine documentary that's uh in

02:03:34.810 --> 02:03:36.630
the works and that that features the mission

02:03:36.630 --> 02:03:39.250
within a little bit and martin palanco who's

02:03:39.250 --> 02:03:47.680
who started that um yeah besides that i Honestly,

02:03:47.840 --> 02:03:50.260
I haven't been watching as much TV or anything

02:03:50.260 --> 02:03:54.979
as I usually do. I've been playing video games

02:03:54.979 --> 02:03:58.159
a little bit more since I've had a lot more downtime.

02:03:59.720 --> 02:04:05.420
What are you hoping to do next? Originally, when

02:04:05.420 --> 02:04:11.880
I was in my PhD, I was hoping to work for a startup

02:04:11.880 --> 02:04:15.260
that was... basically going to be one of the

02:04:15.260 --> 02:04:21.239
new ketone mono ester companies and um i think

02:04:21.239 --> 02:04:25.180
they're just still going back and forth with

02:04:25.180 --> 02:04:30.020
their investors and so things haven't happened

02:04:30.020 --> 02:04:32.760
quickly enough for for me to start doing that

02:04:32.760 --> 02:04:39.069
um but I'd say generally I'm interested in improving

02:04:39.069 --> 02:04:41.350
people's performance, whether that's their cognitive

02:04:41.350 --> 02:04:43.289
performance or, you know, just human performance

02:04:43.289 --> 02:04:47.750
in general. And I, I find any high performing

02:04:47.750 --> 02:04:52.029
athlete or individual to be very exciting to

02:04:52.029 --> 02:04:55.609
learn about and interact with. So whether that's,

02:04:55.609 --> 02:04:57.350
you know, an endurance sport or it's something

02:04:57.350 --> 02:05:00.670
like formula one I think it's all pretty sweet.

02:05:01.329 --> 02:05:07.659
But I, I am trying to get. involved in the ibogaine

02:05:07.659 --> 02:05:09.619
space a little bit i think it has tremendous

02:05:09.619 --> 02:05:14.079
potential and i i love what it did for me but

02:05:14.079 --> 02:05:17.000
i even more i love seeing what it's doing for

02:05:17.000 --> 02:05:21.100
other people um i you know i love the the tradition

02:05:21.100 --> 02:05:24.539
of it um from you know how bleeding's been practiced

02:05:24.539 --> 02:05:28.800
in africa um to sort of how ibogaine's being

02:05:28.800 --> 02:05:34.390
used in in western society now um I would love

02:05:34.390 --> 02:05:38.109
to get involved in that side of things. And I've

02:05:38.109 --> 02:05:40.350
been pretty vocal about that on podcasts and

02:05:40.350 --> 02:05:43.229
stuff. So if anyone knows of anything, I'm talking

02:05:43.229 --> 02:05:46.609
to a few different organizations right now and

02:05:46.609 --> 02:05:48.649
trying to get more involved with them. But I

02:05:48.649 --> 02:05:52.689
welcome any other opportunities if any of the

02:05:52.689 --> 02:05:56.090
listeners know of them. I just had Trevor Miller

02:05:56.090 --> 02:05:59.729
on the show. And I know Ambio is opening a second

02:05:59.729 --> 02:06:02.680
location in Malta. So if you're willing to travel,

02:06:02.760 --> 02:06:04.399
maybe they've got vacancies there right now.

02:06:04.899 --> 02:06:07.579
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's tricky because I don't

02:06:07.579 --> 02:06:13.600
have a directly obvious background that would

02:06:13.600 --> 02:06:16.720
lend itself to Ibogaine research or that sort

02:06:16.720 --> 02:06:19.359
of thing. But I think at least there's similarities.

02:06:19.819 --> 02:06:22.640
I did cognitive research in tactical populations.

02:06:24.539 --> 02:06:27.119
So there's a link there. There's also just having

02:06:27.119 --> 02:06:29.239
been a SEAL, having been through the Ibogaine

02:06:29.239 --> 02:06:32.760
treatment before. Um, and then have, you know,

02:06:32.760 --> 02:06:35.119
being able to see firsthand the issues that,

02:06:35.119 --> 02:06:40.600
uh, that Ibogaine benefited. Um, so yeah, I think

02:06:40.600 --> 02:06:42.600
that's probably part of the reason it's difficult.

02:06:42.760 --> 02:06:47.420
And I also, you know, I think if you potentially

02:06:47.420 --> 02:06:50.479
longterm want to get into this stuff and you

02:06:50.479 --> 02:06:54.979
want to be in a research role. It's beneficial

02:06:54.979 --> 02:06:58.640
to go into a postdoc at another academic institution

02:06:58.640 --> 02:07:01.739
and get more involved with that specific research

02:07:01.739 --> 02:07:06.279
while still under the academic umbrella. I felt

02:07:06.279 --> 02:07:10.859
like towards the end of my PhD that I definitely,

02:07:11.119 --> 02:07:13.399
I mean, didn't take till the end, but I definitely

02:07:13.399 --> 02:07:18.520
didn't want to stay in academia. Seems like people

02:07:18.520 --> 02:07:22.300
getting very stressed over stuff that isn't.

02:07:22.539 --> 02:07:26.579
as big of a deal as it needs to be in their minds

02:07:26.579 --> 02:07:31.479
and um not only that but you know the pay is

02:07:31.479 --> 02:07:36.020
not great the work's pretty hard and um potentially

02:07:36.020 --> 02:07:38.500
things move very slow and aren't as rewarding

02:07:38.500 --> 02:07:42.420
as you know i would like them to be absolutely

02:07:43.279 --> 02:07:45.739
Well, the next of the closing questions, is there

02:07:45.739 --> 02:07:48.319
a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

02:07:48.319 --> 02:07:50.939
as a guest to speak to the first responders,

02:07:51.119 --> 02:07:53.300
military and associated professions of the world?

02:07:53.720 --> 02:07:56.739
Oh, yes, I've got two. So we obviously talked

02:07:56.739 --> 02:08:03.039
about Cody because Cody is one of my best friends

02:08:03.039 --> 02:08:05.300
and he's awesome. I haven't stayed in touch with

02:08:05.300 --> 02:08:10.000
a ton of guys since separating from. from the

02:08:10.000 --> 02:08:12.439
navy but he's he's someone who's always like

02:08:12.439 --> 02:08:14.479
been great about keeping in touch with me i'm

02:08:14.479 --> 02:08:17.260
just because my anti -socialness i'm just not

02:08:17.260 --> 02:08:21.800
great at like relationships and stuff um but

02:08:21.800 --> 02:08:28.960
cody's awesome and uh then another one is evan

02:08:28.960 --> 02:08:34.680
mcgougan who is a seal officer that separated

02:08:34.680 --> 02:08:39.409
about a year ago and he's actually living in

02:08:39.409 --> 02:08:41.789
South actually I think technically he lives in

02:08:41.789 --> 02:08:44.470
Charlotte but he's he's in South Carolina quite

02:08:44.470 --> 02:08:47.449
a bit and he just reached out to me a few weeks

02:08:47.449 --> 02:08:51.409
ago saying you know he noticed I'm here and um

02:08:51.409 --> 02:08:56.210
wanted to meet and link up but he yeah he's he's

02:08:56.210 --> 02:08:58.789
very involved in in the leadership space and

02:08:58.789 --> 02:09:02.010
I think he could be a good guest as well yeah

02:09:02.010 --> 02:09:03.750
well I would love to get both of them on so we'll

02:09:03.750 --> 02:09:07.119
see if we can make that happen Brilliant. All

02:09:07.119 --> 02:09:08.840
right. Well, then the last question before we

02:09:08.840 --> 02:09:11.420
make sure where people can find you, what do

02:09:11.420 --> 02:09:16.619
you do to decompress? I really enjoy trail running.

02:09:18.920 --> 02:09:24.840
I have shifted my, yeah, my motivations around

02:09:24.840 --> 02:09:29.279
why I'm exercising. It has, yeah, I realized

02:09:29.279 --> 02:09:33.640
after I turned pro in Ironman that I, that the

02:09:33.930 --> 02:09:37.289
the mental and physical space that I was in after

02:09:37.289 --> 02:09:41.569
that was, I realized not worth it. Um, like ever

02:09:41.569 --> 02:09:44.630
again, for probably any reason besides like a

02:09:44.630 --> 02:09:48.630
lifesaving one. Um, I just really dug myself

02:09:48.630 --> 02:09:50.590
into a hole. I was getting sick all the time.

02:09:50.710 --> 02:09:53.890
My, my blood work looked like I had, uh, HIV

02:09:53.890 --> 02:09:56.649
that was getting close to, you know, looking

02:09:56.649 --> 02:10:00.590
like someone with AIDS. Um, so they, yeah, that

02:10:00.590 --> 02:10:06.630
was just a miserable time. And. Now, you know,

02:10:06.649 --> 02:10:08.470
over this past year, I've kind of reworked the

02:10:08.470 --> 02:10:10.569
way that I view exercise and why I'm doing it.

02:10:10.630 --> 02:10:14.930
So I just love going on super chill trail runs

02:10:14.930 --> 02:10:18.649
now. I do that four to five days a week. And

02:10:18.649 --> 02:10:22.930
then I also love to go to go to this place in

02:10:22.930 --> 02:10:25.909
Charlotte that's got a sauna and cold plunge

02:10:25.909 --> 02:10:28.470
and steam room and hot tub and stuff. And I usually

02:10:28.470 --> 02:10:32.439
go there once a week. yeah and then and then

02:10:32.439 --> 02:10:35.560
i'm not a big video gamer but the last couple

02:10:35.560 --> 02:10:38.539
months i have been and i've also found that very

02:10:38.539 --> 02:10:43.119
enjoyable which games do you like um so i bought

02:10:43.119 --> 02:10:47.699
a switch too because i was oh well i don't remember

02:10:47.699 --> 02:10:50.100
the initial reason why i bought it i think i

02:10:50.100 --> 02:10:52.180
wanted i knew the new pokemon game was coming

02:10:52.180 --> 02:10:54.180
out and i was like i want to play pokemon again

02:10:54.180 --> 02:10:56.319
because i used to love pokemon when i was younger

02:10:56.319 --> 02:11:01.600
um But yeah, I got the new Pokemon game. I'm

02:11:01.600 --> 02:11:06.260
playing The Witcher 3 right now. I was playing

02:11:06.260 --> 02:11:11.439
Cyberpunk before. Hogwarts Legacy is good. The

02:11:11.439 --> 02:11:15.479
Zelda games are great. Yeah, that was, I think,

02:11:15.500 --> 02:11:17.739
one of the main motivations for getting it. I

02:11:17.739 --> 02:11:21.079
love the fantasy aspect of Zelda, and I'm not

02:11:21.079 --> 02:11:24.319
normally big on fantasy or anything that's not

02:11:24.319 --> 02:11:29.340
modern or futuristic, but I do. love zelda so

02:11:29.340 --> 02:11:33.220
yeah those are those are the games brilliant

02:11:33.220 --> 02:11:35.899
all right well for people listening if they want

02:11:35.899 --> 02:11:37.819
to learn more about you if they want to offer

02:11:37.819 --> 02:11:40.039
you your dream position where are the best places

02:11:40.039 --> 02:11:45.460
online to find you um so i'm on linkedin uh you

02:11:45.460 --> 02:11:47.180
know i'm not going to read off my linkedin url

02:11:47.180 --> 02:11:49.640
because it's a series of numbers that wouldn't

02:11:49.640 --> 02:11:52.619
make sense but um you know i'm blame lance on

02:11:52.619 --> 02:11:58.779
on linkedin um And if there's another plain lens,

02:11:58.840 --> 02:12:01.260
they're probably not Asian. So you can tell by

02:12:01.260 --> 02:12:04.340
the picture that it's me. And then I'm on Instagram

02:12:04.340 --> 02:12:08.840
at blankets. So spelled like my name, B -L -A

02:12:08.840 --> 02:12:15.279
-I -N -E -K -E -T -S. And yeah, usually whether

02:12:15.279 --> 02:12:18.479
it's LinkedIn or Instagram, I'm decent about

02:12:18.479 --> 02:12:22.430
responding to people. Beautiful. Well, again,

02:12:22.550 --> 02:12:24.729
I want to say thank you to Cody and I want to

02:12:24.729 --> 02:12:27.390
thank you. It's been such an interesting conversation.

02:12:27.649 --> 02:12:30.369
Having the background that you had as a high

02:12:30.369 --> 02:12:33.430
level athlete, as a young man through to your

02:12:33.430 --> 02:12:35.449
times with the SEAL teams and now the research

02:12:35.449 --> 02:12:37.489
that you're doing and the Ibogaine. I mean, there's

02:12:37.489 --> 02:12:40.210
so much that we've talked about. So I want to

02:12:40.210 --> 02:12:42.130
thank you so much for being so generous with

02:12:42.130 --> 02:12:43.930
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

02:12:43.930 --> 02:12:46.810
podcast today. Yeah, thanks for having me on,

02:12:46.869 --> 02:12:47.590
James. It was fun.