This episode is sponsored by yet another company
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of the Behind the Shield podcast. This episode
is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran -owned and
operated performance optimization company that
I introduced recently as a sponsor on this show.
Well, since then, I have actually been using
my products and I have had incredible success.
There was initial blood work that was extremely
detailed and based on that, they offered supplementation.
So I began taking DHEA. BPC -157 for inflammation
based on the fact that I've been a stuntman,
a martial artist and a firefighter my whole life.
Lots of aches and pains. Dihexa to help cognition
after multiple punches to the head and shift
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And if you want to hear more about Transcend
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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany
.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show Air Force veteran and former Rescue 3 FDNY
firefighter, Jeff Kuhl. Now in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from Jeff's journey
into the military, firefighting in the Air Force,
his transition into FDNY, his powerful perspective
on 9 -11, being trapped in the 178th Street Fire
on Black Sunday, the selfless courage of Joey
DiBernardo, the horrendous injuries Jeff sustained
from the fall, his physical and mental health
journey, losing Joey, the creation of the Lieutenant
Joseph P. DiBernardo Memorial Foundation, how
their training and bailout systems are saving
firefighters to this day, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredibly powerful and
important conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 1 ,200 episodes
now. So all I ask in return is that you help
share these incredible men and women's stories
so I can get them to every single person on planet
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you, Jeff. Cool. Enjoy.
Well, Jeff, I want to start by saying thank you
so, so much for taking the time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. It's my
honor to be here. So where on planet Earth are
we finding you this afternoon? I am south of
the Mason -Dixon line in Myrtle Beach, South
Carolina. So you were just saying that you were
playing golf with John Walters, who was another
guest that became a good friend. Yeah, Johnny
is part of, well, he was a member of Rescue One.
He was injured a little over a year after I was
injured in the line of duty. He was injured in
2006 and I was injured in 2005. He was a rescue
one fireman and I was a rescue three firemen,
both with FDNY. There's five rescues for the
city of New York. And, you know, we lean on each
other a lot. You know, Johnny lost his leg and
almost both his legs in the line of duty. One
day he dubbed us on the 15th anniversary of 9
-11. We were shooting a documentary in New York
with a fellow friend, Brian Parrott, that was
a Navy SEAL sniper for eight years. And it was
Mike Schunk and Johnny Walters from Rescue 1.
Rob Liebman from Rescue 2 that was burned up
in a brownstone pretty bad. And then myself from
Rescue 3, and we're taking a picture. We're on
Marine 1 out in the New York Harbor. And Johnny
said, look at this, the Misfit Toy Club. Each
one of us had a career due to injuries. Rescue
4 and 5 could have been in there in any other
engine or truck in the city of New York. And
then we lean on one another for support, because
nobody knows it better than the guys that have
been through it and gals. Absolutely. I'm actually
flying out to Dallas in about three weeks to
MC Ryan 7X documentary. So we did that round
the world thing a couple of years ago and the
film is ready. So that's going to be fun. Awesome.
Speaking of Rescue 1, just before we progress
into your actual timeline, one of my favorite
people from FDNY is Al Benjamin. He came on a
few years ago now. Did you ever cross paths with
Al? Al is a phenomenal guy. I still talk to him.
I haven't talked to him probably in eight months
or better, but a great, great, you know, just
a giant of a man, a knowledgeable man. He was
one of the senior guys in Rescue One and just
a great guy. Just, you know, he continues to
pay it forward in the job. You know, he's a very
kind soul. Yeah. I think anyone who... has uh
problems with their ego and the fire service
understanding what a true senior firefighter
is need to listen to al's podcast because that
i never rose above the rank of fireman either
and i just still love the job so much i didn't
want to promote but that experience in the back
seat i think is invaluable but sadly in this
um environment that we have now people are just
you know flying up the ladder and i get it they're
trying to trying to earn more money but i think
there's so much knowledge to squeeze out of the
firefighter's position before you think about
promoting. Absolutely. Absolutely. I had about
eight, 10 months in the books myself when I was
still in 19 truck. And I was like, you know what?
I wasn't ready to be a boss. And this is prior
to 9 -11. And I was on my way to be a senior
man in 19 truck. And I told my wife, I go, I
don't know if this is for me right now. And she
says, it's not about the money. It's what makes
you happy. you know, and being a senior man in
a company. And I didn't know how the cards would
unfold. We wouldn't know, you know, a couple,
I don't even remember like time -wise if it was
months, you know, a year or so or two years.
But, you know, I mean, 9 -11 happened and it
changed, it changed FDNY, it changed the United
States of America, it changed the world. So you
just never know. Absolutely. Well, I want to
get to what that event was even like through
your eyes, but let's start at the very beginning
of your timeline. So tell me where you were born
and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. So
I was born in New York, in Rockland County, in
Nyack, New York, Nyack Hospital. I grew up in
Havistraw. a very diverse community, a great
community, an old Dutch community that was, it
was a brick laying community. There was a huge
clay field that was there and basically Haverstraw,
the town and village I grew up in, built New
York City. You still find bricks floating up
on the Hudson River there. My mom and dad are
both from West Virginia, from a small coal mining
town in West Virginia. You blink your eyes, you're
through it. Mom and dad both came to New York
separately for work. They both work for Letchworth
Institution, which is a mental hospital at the
time. We're mentally handicapped children. Being
given as wards of the state, you know, parents
would give them up and mom and dad both worked
there initially. Down the road, my dad went to
work for the New York State Thruway Authority,
being a firefighter, a tow truck operator for
the Tappan Zee Bridge and X amount of miles on
either side of the Tappan Zee Bridge, also a
volunteer firefighter. Mom left Lexworth, became
a stay -at -home mom. I have one brother, Jim,
or James that he goes by now, like yourself,
but he's always Jim to me. He's my younger brother,
but he appears to be much older. He looks like
the biker type, and he fits that, but he also
carries around Mom's little Yorkie now. We lost
Mom last year, and so you see this big tattooed
guy that used to ride a Harley. Kind of around
this little Yorkie. It's kind of funny, you know.
So it was, you know, it was me and my brother
growing up. And then mom went back to work at
some point. And, you know, our family was a working
family. It was a struggle. Dad worked a sod job
as a custodian. He was a foreman. Mom worked
in a factory, but they always provided for the
family. And every day that my mom came home from
work, it was a... It was a home -cooked meal
on the table. It wasn't like she was on her feet
all day. She worked in a curtain factory. And
that job would eventually take her life. You
know, she lost her life to COPD, breathing all
the particles from the curtains and stuff, all
the finer particles. So she was a non -smoker.
But, you know, we had a great childhood. You
know, spent a lot of time in West Virginia, summers
in West Virginia on a farm, on my aunt and uncle's
farm. you know, hunting and fishing and just
being a country boy. And then I'd come back to
New York and, you know, I had great friends growing
up. You know, we'd go out and, you know, we'd
play all day and, you know, until the sun was
going down and it was, you know, homeward bound.
And somewhere along the way, I mean, as a young
kid, I used to run away to the volunteer firehouse.
You know, I grew up in a community that was all
volunteer firefighters and my dad belonged to
the volunteer firehouse. And Jeff would come
up missing and mom would know where to find me.
I was just looking for the volunteer firehouse.
Going back to what your parents did when they
first moved to New York. Did they ever relay
any stories? Because if you think about those
institutions, a lot of them were closed down.
From what I understand, that's actually really
the kind of origin of our homelessness problem
as well. Not so much the children one, but the
mental institutions themselves. But I remember
as a firefighter paramedic going to one of the
nursing homes that we had, and there was a floor
full of children. There was a little boy that
I... sadly held in my arms while he died, but
I'm shaking baby, baby. Now he was about five.
So for five years, he'd just been staring at
the ceiling. So I can't imagine how heartbreaking
it must've been to work in one of those facilities.
So did they ever tell any stories about that
part of their life? Well, mom always called,
I mean, some of these were adults, but she always
called them her kids, you know, and she took
great care of them. You know, I mean, I've seen
documentaries on this facility. It's all closed
now, you know, but. it was it's sad to see that
somebody would just give up a child you know
that had a mental deficiency you know just like
hey i i i can't take them anymore i don't know
how somebody would do that you know it's like
um but you know they do it and um you know i
think you know i i think it weighed on both my
mom and dad but you know um they're country you
know country people you know and um you know
just tough as nails i mean you know they just
both gave so much. Well, it's interesting now.
I think this was kind of really tacked onto,
I think, a lot of the veterans that came home,
a lot of our amputees, and not so much the mental
health side, but just the adaptive athlete. We
started seeing prosthetics and these amazing
wounded warriors doing all kinds of things, from
mud runs to Olympic events, all kinds. And I
think that then pulled forward a lot of the different,
I forget the term now, but the Down syndrome
and cerebral palsy, and you start seeing amazing
people from those groups. There's a guy on the
show, Chris Nikic, who's the first. young man
with down syndrome to do the Hawaiian Ironman
triathlon. I actually watched that documentary.
Amazing individual. Amazing. Exactly. So how
many people from that institution actually, like
you said, given the right environment, would
actually be thriving in society? Yeah. What about
the tow truck element? I think we talked about
this when we spoke a couple weeks ago, but I
think one of the least acknowledged professions
when it comes to the exposure to trauma are our
tow truck drivers because they're there on most
of these grisly scenes. Sometimes they're even
transporting the vehicle back with the, you know,
the occupants still in it. Did that ever affect
your dad or did he ever talk about that? Oh,
well, I knew all about, you know, all the incidents
that happened out there because he would always
share them with me. And, you know, I don't remember
if I would ask questions or he would just share,
but a lot of it was newsworthy. I mean, my dad,
I mean, it was tractor trailers that crashed
on the Tappan Zee Bridge that, went through the
railing and went into the Hudson River and, you
know, rollovers with dismemberment. And my dad
was actually shot at one day, responded to a
call on a Satin Z bridge. And he actually, he
was responding to a call and one of the mutts
decided, you know, he wasn't yielding right away.
And he fired shots at the tow truck. They ran
red lights and sirens because they were fire
and towing, kind of like the Port Authority for
New York and New Jersey, you know, George Washington
Bridge and whatnot. And anyway, he rolled it
over on a bridge and, you know, by the grace
of God, he survived it, you know, and this guy
ended up going to prison. But yeah, he's seen
a lot out there. He met a lot of people out there,
too. I mean, from the rock band Kiss. molly hatchett
ted nugent you know i mean a lot of different
people broke down on a bridge at different times
and you know it was it was cool and or an ice
cream truck would roll over and you know next
thing you know our uh well the freezer went bad
on the ice cream truck and we got a um freezer
full of ice cream you know which was kind of
good stuff you know so it wasn't all negative
you know it was good he worked there for 28 years
you know and uh you know he provided for his
family i mean he was I think if he could do it
all over again, you know, start from day one,
he would have pursued the New York City Fire
Department like I did because he was a volunteer
firefighter as a kid and was a life member in
Rockland County. But, you know, it is what it
is. It was a good paying job, you know, so with
good benefits. Well, going back to, again, your
early life, what were you playing and doing as
far as sports and exercise? Well, we pretty much
played everything, you know, as far as organized
sports. I mean, I played some basketball and
a little bit of baseball, but I always loved
hockey and hockey was my thing. But dad wanted
me to play football. I played a little bit of
lacrosse and he wanted me to play football. I
mean, I loved football at the time. I loved watching
it. I grew up a diehard New York Giants fan,
but I was always drawn to hockey. Mom didn't
drive, dad drove, dad was working. And it just
never materialized for me. I didn't start skating,
like just like ice skating, probably ninth, tenth
grade when I started ice skating. And, you know,
eventually, you know, I started playing in men's
leagues and stuff. But, you know, we played as
a kid. We played, you know, street hockey. We
played roller hockey. We played wiffle ball.
uh just whatever football whatever whatever it
was like i say from daylight to sundown we were
out there you know there was a elementary school
that wasn't too far from us and you know we would
all the sports would take place there in that
parking lot and you know we would challenge the
next neighborhood over and then next neighborhood
over and we would travel and it was it was just
a lot of fun you know i was actually having this
conversation with my wife yesterday i don't know
if you've kind of aware this aware of this if
your kids are the right age but There is a resurgence
of 80s and 90s fashion, music, I mean, all things
our generation. But because these poor kids have
been raised with devices and all these other
areas, they haven't refound that community element
that there is no cell phone. You go to the park
and when the lights finally go out, then you
head home. Or like you said, challenging other
kids. I mean, for example, the football games
we used to play. You just put down a jersey,
your sweatshirt, made goals there, and that's
it. You've got a football pitch. And you look
at the specialization and the pressure that are
on high school athletes now, that simple love
of play, that simple love of just hanging out
and shooting the shit and sometimes being bored
and getting rained on and being cold, they haven't
refound that. So even though our music and our
pop culture and all that stuff is great and our
fashion. I wish that they could experience what
we did where there was none of this electronic
distraction and you were out there just experiencing
life moment by moment. Absolutely. You know,
I mean, because you just see the disconnect,
you know, today. You know, it's like you go out
to dinner with anybody, you know, and the phones
are there and, you know, are they engaged or
not engaged and distractions and, you know, it's...
You know, we're definitely missing something.
I mean, the Internet is a fascinating place,
you know, to gain a lot of information. But at
the same time, I think there's a huge downfall
and disconnect from it. You know, I watch it
with my own kids for a while, you know, that
they didn't know how to, you know, pick up the
phone and tell, you know, coach, hey, coach,
I can't make the game. You know, I'm sick or
whatever. You know, you got to text. they they
don't know they didn't know how to do that at
the time now both of them you know um they both
work in a profession now that they they they're
on the phone all the time and they talk face
to face and communication skills are there but
i think that you know it's lacking a lot you
know absolutely well speaking of occupations
were you already thinking of the fire service
when you were in high school or was there something
else wow i probably Knew I wanted to be a firefighter
since I was 14 years of age, if not sooner. I
knew specifically I wanted to be a New York City
firefighter. It was more than a fascination for
me. You know, it was a calling, you know. And
I didn't know but one New York City firefighter
at the time. And, you know, like growing up.
I don't know. I was just drawn to it, you know,
so I was into, I joined a fire explorer program
at 14 years of age. So through the Boy Scouts
of America, they have the explorer program and
there's a fire program. There's a police program.
I don't know what other kind of programs there
are, but there's, you know, there's a lot of
programs in the Boy Scouts of America. And I
know the Boy Scouts have changed through the
years. And, um, but you know, that was, that
was it. great great thing for us you know and
and again growing up in a very diverse community
i mean it was everybody that was there you know
like i grew up you know with spanish friends
black friends you know white friends you know
female friends and you know we all did we disagree
at times yeah we disagreed but we all got back
in there and did it together and you know i mean
we were just learning what the job was. We weren't
learning the job. We were learning what the job
was. We were the helpers, you know, standing
as close as you can get to that fire line, you
know, without actually being involved in it.
You know, I mean, we were exterior and, you know,
we had, you know, training groups that we went
to and seminars and, you know, we bonded with
other fire explorers, you know, on the other
side of the county, Westchester County. And it
was just, it was. It was a great foundation because
so many of my friends that were involved in this
became firefighters and paid firefighters and
police officers. And I would say probably 90
% of those that were in the Fire Explorer program
went on to become volunteer firefighters. So
being a firefighter, it's not about a paycheck.
It really isn't. You know, in the words of the
late great Joseph DiBernardo, professionalism
is an attitude. It has nothing to do with the
paycheck. And, you know, many, many guys that
I worked with in the volunteer fire service were
just as good as FDNY. So, you know, I started
out in a fire explorer program and I read Firehouse
Magazine monthly. And back when we used to read
magazines, we're talking about the web and the
internet and all this. And yeah, I'd get it once
a month and I'd read it cover to cover. And somewhere
along the way, I read Report for Mention Company
82, the famous book Report for Mention Company
82. And that really drove me. And I'm like, this
is what I want to do. I mean, it's a fiction
book. I knew Dennis Smith. A little bit, you
know, I knew quite a few of the characters that
their names were changed in the book later down
the road. And it just I'm like, this is it. I
want to be a New York City firefighter. And I
knew I couldn't be a New York City firefighter
until I was 21. Well, I go back and I read in
Firehouse magazine and I read at some point and
this is 13, 14 years of age and read this at
16, 16 and a half years of age. I'm reading Firehouse
and I see an article on the DOD Fire Academy,
Department of Defense Fire Academy. And I was
like, I'm going to become an Air Force firefighter
first. And I go discuss this with my dad. My
dad was an Army vet. And I went to him and all
he said to me is make sure you get a guaranteed
job. Whatever you do, get a guaranteed job. Get
it in writing. And I went to the recruiter in
Spring Valley, New York at 17. And I signed a
delayed enlistment contract at 17 to become,
for four years, to become an Air Force firefighter.
And I knew the end game was that I still wanted
to be a New York City firefighter. So that was,
that's like the drive. And at 18, when I became
18, I still didn't graduate high school yet.
At 18, I have a January birthday, so I became
a full -fledged volunteer firefighter. I graduated,
I don't know, June of 1985 and August of 1985.
I was in boot camp in Laughlin Air Force Base
in Texas. Shortly after that, I was at Chanute
Air Force Base in Illinois for fire school. And
my first duty assignment, my last name is Kool.
Guess where they stationed me? Alaska. Alaska.
Because you told me already. Yes. Yeah, I know.
But for a guest, I think it's... You know, I
was like Alaska. And I put down from, I mean,
my dream sheet, not that I think they really
listen, I put down from New York to Florida,
really hoping to be in Florida. But I ended up
in Alaska. And I was active duty during the Graham
Rudman administration where they started closing
bases and extended tours and everything. And
I was supposed to be there for two years. And
I got involuntarily extended to three years.
I worked for a great fire chief there, Bud Rotroff.
He was a civilian chief, and he was a smokejumper.
He was really into wildland firefighting. The
Air Force, we take care of both the structural
component on the base and the aircraft frames,
and we run mutual aid. and we did wildland firefighting
you know so i was a red car holder i was on a
strike team i've been on thousands and thousands
of acres of wildland burning and you know after
becoming a new york city firefighter down the
road i knew back then wildland firefighting wasn't
me because you had this monster of a fire burning
and you're taking your one lick with your pulaski
and you're moving down the line and you're moving
down the line and sometimes you really never
see headway You know, it takes a while to see
headway. You got a bunch of row frames going
or taxpayers going. You might be there for a
couple hours, but you're not there for a couple
days, weeks, you know. But it was amazing. I
mean, I seen, you know, some pretty good fires
when I was up there. We ran mutual aid into,
well, get this town, Moose Creek, Alaska. That
was the next little town outside of the base
that was at Eielson Air Force Base. And we would
run mutual aid in there. We'd run mutual aid
into North Pole. Yeah, that North Pole, Alaska,
it was like where Santa Claus's house was, was,
you know, mutual aid area for us. And we were
35 miles south of Fairbanks. And, yeah, we did
a lot of great stuff. And, you know, I got to
deploy from there. I was in Korea. We went over
to Team Spirit. I lived on a Korean Army base
in a tent. for a couple of months and we got
to support our A -10s over there. And I got to
see some really old aircraft that the Koreans
were still flying, F -86s and F -4s. And I was
like, well, I've seen these in history books
and, you know, documentaries, but I've never
seen them firsthand. And, you know, it was, it
was, you know, pretty, you know, pretty cool
to see that. It's funny when you're purely municipal
as far as firefighting. I went to Anaheim, California
for a few years as a tillerman out there. And
they had a lot of guys that were CDF previously.
So they loved the wildland stuff and they'd be
on all the strike teams. So when I got hired,
we did all the wildland training as well. And
when you actually are an urban firefighter and
you start learning how to cut line. it gives
you an entirely different appreciation for our
hot shots, our smoke jumpers, for everyone else
that's out there. Because progressive hose line
is not so bad, but cut in line, like you said,
you just feel like going into a high -rise fire
with a spray bottle. It seems almost insane,
but it is tiring, tiring work. And those guys
do it for weeks and weeks and weeks. And when
you're walking through the tundra, and we're
up there in Alaska, and you've got the frost
line and everything. So I've seen... 45 below
zero in Alaska when I was there, and I'd seen
90 degrees. And one wildland fire that we had
up there, it was like during the summertime,
lightning strikes and everything. And so the
frost line, you're walking on this tundra, and
next thing you know, you're swallowed up. you're
just swallowed up to your waist and you know
because it's so soft and and it tires you out
you know it's just like but i have a i have a
huge respect for wildland firefighters it's just
not me you know i i'd rather you know be you
know uh working in the ghetto you know and fighting
fires you know i love you know like i just love
that park you know and it's you know there's
a lot of fires there and um you know In my time,
I got to see a lot of fires in the city of New
York, but I'd rather do that than go out on thousands
of acres of wildland fire. I was the same. I
got so much respect for them. Same as law enforcement.
Like I'm proud of you for running towards bullets,
but I'll just go into burning buildings and cut
people out of cars. But yeah, it's every time
we had a strike team go out, I'd stay on the
truck. We protect the city. Let the boys go out.
I like the hood. I do. All right. Well then just
before we progress forward. When you reflect
back now after your career in FDNY, what were
some of the elements of the Air Force firefighting
that you were taught at the beginning of your
career that actually carried over? Well, I mean,
there's a lot, but you never let on with the
New York City Fire Department. You know, it's
like, hey, I was, you know, what'd you do? Well,
so let me just say this. So let's back up to
Alaska. So I'm up in Alaska. I flew home in 1987
to take the written test for FDNY. Everybody
knew I was going home to take the written test.
And I actually took a detail. I worked in a bombing
range for 30 days. So every Monday morning, I'd
get on a CH -3 and I'd fly out to a remote site
where they would drop bombs and strafe targets
with the A -10s. And I went out there and I brought
all the civil service tests with me for FDNY
that a buddy gave to me. And I did them over
and over and over again. My only job out there
was I was fire suppression. So if we got a huge
fire out there, which would have been a wild
land from a munition strike, you know, I would
call it in and try to contain it as best as I
could, you know. But I'd sit there with a pilot
in the air traffic control tower as he cleared
the aircraft in hot. strafe their targets or
drop their bombs and i just did this over and
over and over so i flew home in 1987 back to
alaska um i i really loved you know the air force
and you know doing this but i wanted more i wanted
a lot of fire and the military is in the prevention
mode you know very very you know like building
inspection um extinguishers um Where you work
in, you know, like the city, you know, there
could be faulty wiring, no smoke detectors, you
know, and, you know, it doesn't make it right.
I mean, I'm there in a life -saving business,
but at the same time, you know, I want to go
to fires. I don't want to sit, you know, in any
office all day, if you will. And gained a lot
of knowledge, worked with a lot of great guys,
but I wanted more. You know, we did a lot of
different training. You know, I mean, stuff that
I would have never, ever got to experience. You
know, I mean, I drove the world's largest fire
truck, you know, at the time. It was 6 ,100 gallons
of water, 515 gallons of foam. It had two engines,
two transmissions. I mean, it was phenomenal.
It was made for a large -frame aircraft. you
know i got to see technology change and and you
know like where joysticks came into our our um
our crash fire rescue trucks i know it's off
now but my time it was crash fire rescue you
know and it's it's still crash fire rescue it
used to be you know you crash we dash you know
and uh i mean you're not looking for people to
die but i mean you know it's like um you know
it was exciting to say the least you know and
and uh you know we trained in all aspects you
know i mean you know there's there's not a lot
of you know uh even major city departments that
get to say hey you know what i had barf training
or crash fire rescue training you know i got
i got to do it i got to play i got to play with
so many different types of aircraft i mean we
had to know how to you know open the canopy uh
safety to see uh safety to guns um you know and
then egress the pilot you know from it and i've
been all the way up uh i mean at the time i mean
everything evolves you know we have f -35s and
everything now but i've been on the space shuttle
not in space but i've been in endeavor you know
i've been in a cockpit of endeavor you know i
got to see it and you know see you know like
some basic egress training for it you know which
is pretty cool you know but again still i was
drawn to And so I'm waiting and waiting and waiting
for FDNY. And I got a little annoyed that my
tour got extended in Alaska. Unfortunately, my
base, as great as it was, I mean, it was God's
country. And I was supposed to take a trip up
there this past summer. But unfortunately, we
had my wife's aunt was real sick and she ended
up passing and we could not go on the trip. um
but i wanted to get back up and see alaska because
there's just so much to see um but uh i lost
my train of thought for a second the squirrel
got in the brain but uh i thought you had your
tour extended and you're waiting for it yeah
yeah so so yeah um the base that i was on had
the highest alcohol suicide divorce um drugs
it was number one in everything you know which
is which is sad but you know you're an 18 year
old being you know stationed you know halfway
across the the world you know i mean it was the
country but i mean i'm closer to alaska than
i mean to russia than i am to uh to new york
you know and it was tough and my dad ran into
uh the fire chief at stewart international airport
um his name is john sicamani and uh My dad started
talking to him and he pretty much offered a job
to me. Just knowing without presenting a resume,
he just a verbal resume he got from my dad. And
the firehouse was the same firehouse was also
the Air Guard firehouse. So I was afforded an
opportunity to get out of my active duty contract.
It's called Palace Chase. whatever you have left
on your active duty contract, you got to double
it near National Guard or reserve component.
So I had a year left on my active duty contract
and I filled out all the paperwork and I got
this job at Stewart International Airport. So
except for one week and a month, the same firehouse
I worked in, I was a civilian. But I wore a military
uniform. It was kind of weird. You wore a military
uniform. You had to conform, you know, to military
standards, you know, weight and facial hair and
haircuts and all that. But you wore a military
uniform, but you're really a civilian. And then
that one week in a month, I was a military guy
again, you know. which is still cool and and
i ended up doing just shy of 21 years between
active duty and air national guard so to say
that i i didn't like it and i i've been around
the world you know and with the air national
guard you know i've i've deployed all over the
world and uh you know i'm proud to say that i
got to do that and many of the guys that i went
was in the air guard with they were new york
city firemen new york city police officers um
jersey police officers port authority fire police
officers. And, you know, just it was another
circus with different clowns, you know, and it
was just great, you know. So I worked there for
four and a half years before I got the call to
the city. I mean, I took the test in 1987. I
didn't get hired until July the 5th, 1992. But
every night that I worked at Stewart as a civilian,
I ran the air traffic control tower with the
40 -pound vest on with another firefighter, Chris
D 'Alessio. Chris and I both would become New
York City firefighters. We wanted the job so
bad. And we would run the air traffic control
tower each night, you know, up and down. Because
back when we took the physical agility test for
FD &Y, it was a written score. And you needed
a high 90, I would say 97 or above on the written.
And you needed 100 on physical agility to be
a contender for that job. And I hated it. I absolutely
hated running with that vest on. It was not pleasure,
but I wanted that job so bad. And I did it over
and over again. And the day I took the physical
agility test in New York Coliseum for FDNY. I
was on the last part of the evolution. I was
pulling a dummy. I don't know if it was 100.
I don't know. We can make an efficient story
out of this. It was a 250 -pound dummy. I don't
remember. It was probably a 100 -and -some -pound
dummy, but I'm pulling them backwards, and I
fall. And I get up. Well, I'm trying to get up,
and one of the firefighters, it's a proctor there.
He's motivating me. Get up. You got this. You
got this. I got up and I pulled and pulled and
pulled and I got 100 and I was 1 ,362 on the
list and I was hired July the 5th, 1992. Beautiful.
It's funny you talked about the airport because
I had the complete opposite side of the experience.
I was in a city department just outside Orlando
and we were on the first alarm for any incident
at the airport. Um, they had their own actual
firefighters, but we were the kind of mutual
aid. Never, not once the whole time I was there,
did we ever get any training on what we were
actually supposed to do once we went into the
airport. So I don't know if that's the same around,
around the country, but you know, like all the,
you know, the, the hazards and I mean, the, you
know, the do's and the don'ts. So we're talking
about commercial airline here. Um, yeah, I mean,
I, I was praying that we'd go just so I could
see what we were supposed to do, but. Yeah, we
never did any training at the airport at all.
Just approaching the airfield is dangerous. You
know, I mean, it's like, oh, we got a plane that
crashed. You still have, I mean, planes land
in, you know, you got to talk to the tower, you
know, and, you know, like where you're crossing
and everything. And, you know, even at FDNY,
we, you know, I worked in a rescue company. We
received minimal training, you know, with it.
And, I mean, we were the guys that are coming
in. I mean, I worked in Rescue 3 at the time.
At the time, that's why I retired. I mean, we
responded on any major incident at 1060. Any
major incident, Rescue 3 was going on. We were
the collapse rescue for the city of New York
at the time. So anytime there was a train derailment,
plane crash, building collapse, you know, we
were the mother ship coming in, just like Hazmat
1. That's changed. The matrix has changed after
9 -11. But, I mean, we would receive minimal
training because the Port Authority, which is
basically a police department. They're the ones
that control, you know, LaGuardia, JFK. And,
you know, that's in FDNY's jurisdiction, but
also they have Newark and they have Stewart also
now. So we're mentioning, you know, the 9 -11.
You get on a 992. Can you walk me through those
first few years prior to that, you know, as far
as where you were assigned and then any kind
of career incidents that you ran? OK, so, you
know, prior to 9 -11. So let's go back to report
from engine company 82. So because it was like,
how did this happen? You know, so anyway, I don't
know, 82 from 52 from 72. I just I think I'm
going to an engine company in the Bronx that
my dad was friendly with the lieutenant in this
company. And he's like, yeah, I'm getting your
son there to this house. It's a great house.
The assignments are coming down that day, and
I hear 19 truck. I'm like, I have no idea where
19 truck is in Manhattan. Is it the Bronx? So
one of my buddies is one of my instructors there,
Bob McMonaco. God rest his soul. We lost him
a couple of years ago. He was a great guy. He
was a member of 83 Engine in the Bronx. He was
out teaching at the Rock. And he taught CPR and
ropes. And I didn't think that you could hear
so many F -bombs when you were getting CPR class.
But I, the one day between him and Lieutenant
Woods, we probably heard in a 45 -minute class,
we probably heard 80 to 100 F -bombs. It's like
you get the F in compression and F in breath
and check his F in pulse. But anyway, so. Bobby
or Wacky Mac that they would call him. He goes,
you know what 19 truck is and how you got there?
I go, I had no idea. He goes, you're going to
a great house. You are going to one of the best
houses on the job. So, well, there was a couple
of guys I said in my guard unit that were FDNY.
And one of my friends, Patty Vogt, he was. He
was a member of 55 Truck. He was banged up and
he was driving the deputy chief. And that deputy
chief that he drove was Chief Joseph DiBernardo.
And so Patty goes to Chief D. one day and he
goes, hey, I don't know Chief D. at the time.
And he goes, hey, we got this guy. He's in the
academy right now. Good guy. He's in the air
guard unit. I think we get him to a good house.
He says, yeah. He says, what's his name? He says,
Jeff Kuhl. He made a little comment about that,
you know, a little fun. And he's like, I'll see
what we can do. And I landed on my feet in 19
truck. And 19 truck is in with 50 engine and
2 -6 battalion. It's a small battalion. Happens
to be in the same battalion as 82 engine from
the famous book, Report from Engine Company 82,
31 truck. 73 engine and 42 truck. I landed in
the 6th Division, the best division in the job.
It's all about the men there and taking care
of the men and going to fires and doing the right
thing. It was instilled in me and I'm blessed
to say that I worked there. I just could never
get enough of that job. It was everything to
me. I miss it every day. um you know i would
have had 30 32 years i would have been on right
now you know and uh i don't know if i would have
still been in rescue three but it was it would
it was a great ride you know unfortunately the
carpet got pulled out from underneath but um
flyers that i've been to uh probably my first
fire i didn't see in in in 19 until i was probably
I don't know, maybe two or three weeks out of
the academy. It was a, it was a project type
fire and it was a, there was a party that night.
So the majority of the company was off. I was
working with all details from other houses, but
you know, it was, you know, like a one room contents
fire, but it was great, you know, um, get your
cherry popped and, you know, um, um, Crazy fires
that I've been on. Here's one on Boston Road,
82 and 31, first do. I don't know what year this
was. Still young on a job. 82 and 31 are first
do. We got the floor above, 15, 19. The fire's
in the bathroom. I don't even remember if it
was on the second floor, third floor, whatever,
but we were on a higher floor. We were above
them. They're pretty much saying it was a can
job. We carry a two and a half gallon water extinguisher
in the truck companies. And they're asking for
another can. And they're like, 19, you got it.
I think they knew that, you know, there's a young
firefighter working, which happens to be me.
And they're like, hey, you know, can you get,
you know, drop down at the can, you know? So
I dropped down and it was like, there's a bunch
of bodies in the doorway, you know, bodies from
like other farming. You know, it's crowded. And
they're not saying pass the can up. They're like,
get up here. And I go in the bathroom, and I
can smell like a sweeter smoke. And it's a smell
that once you smell it, you'll never forget it.
And I turn a corner, and they're like, get in
here, kid. And I go in this bathroom, and there
is a torso burnt up in this tub. And there's
no head. There's no hands. There's no feet. It's
just a torso. And, uh, it's like, you know, it's
like, you know, I guess this is, you know, uh,
initiation, if you will, baptism, whatever, whatever
it is, you know what I mean? Um, and it's something
that's, that's stuck in here, you know, um, it's
burned in there, that image. Um, I, you know,
come to fight out down the road, one of the guys
was reading a newspaper and it was, uh, it was
a. a drug deal that it was taken out. And, uh,
you know, it sits with you, you know, um, you
know, I've been on fires. I remember, uh, probably
the first year backing up. I know it was the
first year because my dad was still there and
it was a Christmas party and another project
type fire. Um, and, uh, um, we go out and I got
the can again, usually, you know, the Johnny's
got the can and, uh, I don't remember who had
the irons with me, but Mike Buckeye, good friend
of mine, he retired as a battalion chief. He
was a big chief in the Marine operations when
he retired. He actually helped move forward from
9 -11 and get into the... getting the newer boats
with FDNY and, you know, newer equipment and
whatnot. But he had the OV that day. We had a
report of a fire on an upper floor, seventh to
eighth floor. He hooked up, reported somebody
being trapped, possibly a baby. And it was 10
cents worth of fire. And I remember passing Mike
as I got up. um to the fire floor he ran up the
stairs and he had his baby in his arms and skin
was peeling off of him and he was over overcome
by smoke and uh he ended up uh succumbing to
his injuries you know and it was like for 10
cents worth of fire you know it was like you
know um seeing quite a few of those you know
through the years you know seeing I've seen a
lot of joy, but I mean, I can, you know, like
you asked me these questions, I can think one
day, another one up on Boston Road or, you know,
we get up there and they're already pulling people
out. I guess 82 and 31 were first due and we're
second due. And there's a victim laying on the
street with just skin, like just peeled off this
person, but they're conscious. And now I have
a job to do. You know, I mean, I can't deviate
from my. my tool assignment, you know, and I'm
not my EMS skills or a poquito, if you will,
you know, it's like, we weren't even, we weren't
even CFRD at the time, you know? So I mean, I
had basic, you know, first aid training and,
you know, we were waiting for EMS. They weren't
even part of FDNY at the time during this fire.
And, you know, I, I continue in, but that's burned
into my brain. I remember that person, like what
happened to that person? Did they? Did they live?
Did they die? More than likely, they probably
died. I mean, I'm a realist, too. I mean, I've
seen enough to know. But the kids, they rarely
sit with you when you see a kid die. In the area
I worked in, in the South Bronx, you've seen
a lot of hate for us. I don't know why. At times,
you know, you see... Like I've had cinder blocks
thrown off the roof at us, you know, um, staff
of buckets were extinguished in a car fire in
one day and early morning and a truck company's
basically standing and leaning on their folks
as we, you know, we already popped the doors
and the engines, you know, wetting the car down.
And, uh, you don't even hear it coming. You just
hear, and he was just like, Whoa, what was that?
And it's, it's a spackle bucket filled with concrete
and it hits the roof of this. this car and it
just buckles this car. And if, um, if it would
have hit one of us, we would have been dead.
I mean, when the cinder block came off the roof
of the project, uh, the one night, um, it actually
indented, um, the rear mount. We had a rear mount,
a hundred foot rear mount Seagrave. And it actually
in the, in the, uh, in the jump seats, it, uh,
put a big, I mean, like, right. I mean, you put
your hand up and you could feel where the. where
the cinder block hit it, you know, so it was
20 stories up and came flying off the roof. My
first, the night I got off probation, we're back
in the quarters and it was 4th of July and we're
stopping traffic, you know, get the engine in
a truck and we're standing there. We're right
on a corner of 167 and Washington Avenue, not
too far from Yankee Stadium. And one of the locals
decided to throw a blockbuster at us. And it
blew up right next to our ears. And the locals
were all for us at the time until one of my brothers
decided enough was enough. And he took it into
his own hands and he punched the guy in the head
and broke his hand. And then it just turned,
you know, the cops had to come all around our
quarters and protect us that night. With all
that being said, though, I've seen a lot of good
there. You know, you see the kids that come in
and, you know, I mean, they truly care. And I
can tell you more about that later on down the
road, like how. But I wanted to be there. I mean,
because I knew that these people weren't, you
know, a lot of them were living in poverty, you
know. But I was drawn to it because fire duty
was here and helping my fellow mankind. I didn't
hate these people, but they ate. they had a dislike
for us you know in the system that was that was
there and uh um you know i look at i look at
the bronx today it's very occupied i mean it's
it's crazy when i went to work there you know
in 1992 i mean it was a burnout shell i mean
we were still going like i remember boston road
it was burnout building after burnout building
and guess what they burned again and they burned
again and they burned again and uh it was crazy
we went to to a lot of fires. I mean, in almost
10 years that I was there, I think we went to
number two in the city the one year. We were
always in the top 20 in occupied structural work.
So we were going to fires. It wasn't just like
we were running. We were going to fires. And
it was good stuff. And that's where I wanted
to be. I wanted to help these people. It didn't
matter what race, color, or creed they were.
I mean, we were there. I've seen some of my brothers
take some bumps and bruises along the way, some
that were career -ending, trying to help these
people out. But that's what we do when we raise
our right hand and we take that oath. I had the
same mentality. Not the very last one I worked
at was to make sure I was home for my son when
I was a single dad then. But prior to that, it
was always, I would argue, some of the most desperate
areas of the cities. My whole thing was because
those are the people that need the help the most.
Yes, I get it that other people pay taxes and,
you know, they absolutely are entitled to a good
level of service, but they don't have the emergencies
as often as, you know, people that are desperate.
So it works on, you know, the red light districts
and the gang neighborhoods. And, you know, more
often than not, like you said, there was gratitude.
But yeah, I mean, you know, people talk about
someone was rude to me at work today. Try responding
to a 911 call. And then they're a piece of shit
when you get there. Like that is another level
of my, not to mention, I've never had yours where,
where, you know, they're trying to kill you.
One of my friends actually was driving a rescue
with a, a gang member who had been shot and the
opposing gang. was chasing them and they were
shooting at the rescue. So, you know, I mean,
it happens, but I think this is, this to me was
always my calling is that I grew up on a farm
in England for Christ's sake. So it couldn't
be further from, you know, urban projects, if
you like. Little culture shock, right? A little
bit, but that's where the people needed us the
most. Those are the ones that society had just
kicked them over and over and over again. People
say, Oh, they made bad decisions. No, you didn't
make bad decisions. Your environment gave you.
only bad decisions to choose from more often
than not. So yeah, I can totally understand.
Here's a story. I just think of these stories.
They just come to me now. It's like, so we always,
back in the day, you were allowed to do a lot
more hazing and breaking shops and having fun.
And it was all great fun. So here's my first
day in the firehouse. My first day in 50 and
19. I knock on the door and my fellow probies
that we carpooled together are waiting for me.
And I knock on the door, probationary firefighter
Cole, you know, reporting to see the captain
or the officer that's on duty. You know, we have
one captain and three lieutenants for each company,
you know, captain and three lieutenants for the
truck and the captain and three lieutenants for
the engine. And we also had a chief in quarters.
but uh anyway they're like stay right here by
the house watch you know we'll be waiting in
a minute so the next thing you know they're like
come to the kitchen now you always knock with
your elbows and i got a cake in my hand and i
walk to the kitchen and i come in the door and
and i see all the men sitting around the kitchen
table and i see a gentleman balls ass naked um
robin and another gentleman balls ass naked laying
flat on this huge kitchen table with an apple
in his mouth and he's rubbing them down with
olive oil and everybody's sitting around like
it's nothing you know and they're reading a newspaper
and talking and then these these guys look up
and they're like hey what's up you want to be
next i'm like i'm good you know like but you
know that's they want to see who you are what
you're made of you know and how you react i mean
nothing is sacred in a firehouse absolutely nothing
is sacred you know and they want to test you
and when they're not breaking your your balls
that's when they when you know they don't like
you you know i mean if they're not talking to
you breaking your balls but going i mean that
story that's that's that's a funny story you
know and i'm like i i don't know what happened
to this culture you know i talked to you know
to other firefighters and i talked to you know
to our our buddy ryan parrot it was a seal and
some of the stuff that they did i'm like they're
just demented as we are you know i mean if not
more so you know hitting each other with stun
guns and whatnot you know and um but uh so one
night um we always you know after we clean the
kitchen three times a day i mean it's always
clean and after dinner um you know the kitchen's
mopped everything's washed wiped down Tie the
garbage up. Take it out of the garbage pail,
tie it up, leave it by the door. Somebody's going
to pick it up. Shoot up to the roof with a five
-gallon pail of water. The dumpster's out in
front of quarters. You just wait for the operator's
door. You stay behind a parapet. You hear the
operator's door open. You just wait for that
victim to come out, and you dump that five -gallon
bucket of water onto that victim. A lot of fun,
until it's you. It's always funny. But you're
really a giver. But everybody gets a laugh out
of it. I've hit captains inadvertently with buckets
of water. I actually dropped a bucket of water
one day through somebody's windshield. Thank
God I didn't hit the roof and buckle it, you
know. But I'm waiting up behind his parapet,
and I hear this commotion to the right. There's
souvenir places to the right of 167 and Washington
Avenue. It's another side street. And I see this
crowd take off running. And I see another gentleman
reach into his waistband. And it was like, you're
watching a low budget movie. And he pulls a handgun
out of his waistband. And he's shooting it sideways.
He's holding it out sideways. Not like he would
fire a handgun. And there had to be 15, 20 people.
And they turn right on 167. And how one of these...
people did not get shot i was like i was just
absolutely amazed to see that you know i was
like i was amazed and shocked i was like what
did i just see you know and uh another time i'm
sitting on house watch and and uh you get that
bang bang bang you know it's like like you know
it ain't nothing good you know i open up the
door man i've been shot and i'm like what and
he's like yo i've been shot in the head i'm like
all right i'm in a truck i'm not cfrd sit down
here on the apparatus floor i hit five bells
engine you got a verbal ems run uh gunshot wound
right and the guy got shot in the head i'm like
you know it's just you know i've seen a lot of
crazy crazy stuff there um i've been burned you
know um i mean i got burned up pretty good i
was i was pulling a ceiling uh one day up on
eagle avenue and i'm pulling a ceiling and i
probably should have got off the rig one of my
buddies wanted on the rig He ended up a great
guy, Jerry O'Shea. He ended up being a lieutenant
in Rescue 2 down the road. And he's like, get
off the rig. He's like, you're going home. I'm
like, I'm not getting off the rig. I know we're
going to a job. I mean, this is a hot box. Jerry
used to say, hot box, Eagle Avenue, hot box.
Sure enough, it was a hot box, right? So I think
he went to a second alarm. Anyway, it was top
floor job and pulling the ceilings. Same time
I'm pulling, somebody pushed down on top of me,
and fire just funneled down my neck. This is
1997, early 97. My wife's a high -risk pregnancy.
She's pregnant with our first Jeffery, and fire
funnels down my neck, burned my ears real good.
One of my buddies, Mike Tierney, grabs the nozzle,
puts it down my coat, puts me out. I go to the
hospital. They want me to go to Cornell. They
want to put me in the burn center. I'm like,
I can't go to the burn center. My wife's high
risk. And she's ready to deliver very soon. So
I promised to stay in a firehouse. I'll come
down to the burn center tomorrow and let you
look at me because they talked about grafting
me. And I got to sidestep that and not make my
wife deliver early. And anyway. i came home the
next day i opened the door and i'm supposed to
be working and she's like and i'm like relax
you know um i got was it wasn't the first time
i was burned it was the first time i was burned
out seriously but you know um still want to do
it you know i'm like can't get enough of it you
know it's like the adrenaline rush you know it's
like it's like no other you know it's but you
know just you know and i uh I embrace 19 Truck.
I mean, I just work with a great cast of characters.
One of the old -timers used to work with Joe
Selle. God rest his soul. He was a mason, and
he built the projects, and, you know, he just
had so many great stories and knowledge of the
Bronx and just couldn't get enough of... know
where it was and there's that swirl again it
ran in my head and like what why why am i here
you know in 19 truck but he oh here's what he
said he said you know it's the magnet on the
roof the magnet on the roof on 167 and washington
avenue it it brings in a cast of characters right
and the cast of characters that we brought in
many of them go on to lead the new york city
fire department i mean So I've worked with, well,
Billy Selick, who was one of my last captains,
he was chief of special operations. So he ran
the special operations command for FDNY. Patty
McNally, one of my captains, he was assistant
chief of operations, one of my captains. Charlie
Rivera, Carlos Rivera, before my time, he was
a lieutenant in 50 engine. He became the fire
commissioner of FDNY. Mike Buckeye, you know,
chief of marine operations, you know, it was
just. I mean, you can go on and on and on how
many great guys have come out of there and continue
to come out of there and lead the New York City
Fire Department, you know, and it's like, and
I got to work there. And I said about me being
in the books and then closing them up. And I'm
like, I'm going to, I'm going to retire from
this place. I think I'm just going to be a farm
and a 19 truck forever. And, you know, until
I either age out or, you know, I just can't do
it anymore. Chief DiBernardo comes to the firehouse
one day, and he's the division commander for
the 6th Division. And he holds roll call on the
apron in front of the firehouse. And he says,
Jeff, can I see you? Roll call's over. He goes,
can I see you? He's the deputy chief, right?
No, chief, you can't see me. He got me my first
duty assignment and everything. We're not super
tight, but I have the respect I have for him.
I mean, Chief D was a Vietnam vet. He was with
the big red one. I know you had him on, you know,
your podcast. He's like my dad today, you know,
but he asked me, he goes, well, first he starts
telling me, Hey, my son, Joe, you know, he went
to these newly formed squads and he's on squad
61. He went to X amount of jobs, his last 24,
whatever, 10 jobs, forced X amount of doors.
Yada, yada, yada. You know, he's doing a lot
of great stuff. You know, all the specialized
training. I think you'd be a good fit to go to
a squad company. What do you think? I go, Chief,
I'll think about it. Meanwhile, I'm going. I'm
not going anywhere. But I'm not telling him that.
But I'm like, I'm not going anywhere. It was
a compliment. Oh, huge compliment that he's asking
me to do this. But I'm like, nah. So I don't
know where time is between that and there. But
9 -11 happened and the whole world changed. The
New York City Fire Department, we were decimated.
You know, we lost 343 guys that day. I lost 33
friends. You know, they're trying to rebuild
this fire department, if you will. There's a
lot of guys that are willing to step up, guys
and gals that are willing to step up, you know,
many of them. are the children of those that
were killed on 9 -11, which is a great testament.
Sorry. I'm proud to know so many of these individuals
that stepped up. Going back to me specifically,
you know what I mean? It was, I was off duty
that day. I finished my 24 on the night of September
10th and I was home. I was back in Rockland County
and Jeff's 28, soon to be 29. So I get, you know,
what was he four and a half at the time? You
know, Dylan's brand new baby. He was, he was
born. In 2000. So, you know, it was a year, year
and change old, you know, so the family sitting
around and Jeff's watching Disney and a commercial
comes on and a typical male thing to do is commercial
comes on. You flip the chair, you know, so I
flipped the channel and I see the first plane
impacted the World Trade Center. And I was there
in 1993, you know, not initially, but I was down
at the bar wing in 93. And I'm like, this is
not normal. And I start getting dressed even
before the recall happens. And the second plane
impacts the building. And my wife's crying and
Jeff's crying. And Dylan doesn't know what's
going on. And I ended up flying out of the house.
I told my family I love them. And I had a Toyota
Corolla at the time. And you don't think a Toyota
Corolla can go 100 miles an hour, but it can
go 100 miles an hour. And I normally would go
over the George Washington Bridge. I live 35
miles north of the city. Rockland County is.
So you can either go over the George Washington
Bridge or the Tappan Zee Bridge. And I'm thinking
George Washington Bridge is a secondary target.
And I'm going to take the Tappan Zee Bridge.
The problem was the night before when I came
home, I was on vapors. And I had to stop at night
in New York to put fuel in my vehicle. And I
took off from there. I just threw in a couple
of gallons, took off from there, got on the Tappan
Zee Bridge. Crystal clear day, blue skies. You
could see south into New York City. I'm on the
Tappan Zee Bridge. The bridge gets shut down
with us on it. We're spanning between Rockland
County and Westchester County. And you look south
and New York City is right there. And you can
see the towers burning. And they shut the bridge
down with us on it. And they are looking for
secondary devices. With us on the bridge, you
know, I guess if something went off, we are part
of the, you know, the cost, you know. Collateral
damage. Collateral damage, yes. i don't know
how long it was but i'm standing with cops and
firemen and uh next thing you know the bridge
is open i take off flying again i'm on on the
uh major deegan i'm close to the bronx i get
in getting i mean i'm trying to weave in and
out of traffic um i get into an argument with
the local you know he's everybody knows what's
going on i mean it's not like you know but I'm
like, buddy, I'm trying to get to the firehouse.
All this guy wants to do is fight. I go, buddy,
I don't have time for this. I take off, you know,
pass them out. I'm like, head to the firehouse.
I get to the firehouse. I see battalion 26 pulling
out on the apron. I pull up to the firehouse.
And I'm not in, you know, I'm not a chief's aide.
I'm not a chief. I see the 26. They pull out.
Off they go. I go open the door to the firehouse.
I look. Both the engine and the truck are gone.
the engine was at the trade center the truck
was relocated down to lower manhattan it was
at 16 truck uh 16 truck was was at the trade
center and uh you know i was the first off -duty
guy to 1519 that day and i signed in the journal
and uh shortly after guys started mustering in
a firehouse and gathering and we were told to
report over to division which is on 155 in melrose
and uh We're standing out there in the street,
and there's hundreds and hundreds of firefighters
from the 6th Division standing out there. And
they already know that the loss of life is so
great, and they start holding us back. And I'm
literally standing there not only with my fire
department brothers, but I'm standing there with
guys that their blood brothers are at the Trade
Center, and they're trying to get a hold of them,
and they can't get a hold of them. And then next
thing you know, fighters are flying over to South
Bronx. It was a surreal moment. You know, I'm
used to seeing, I think it was F -15s at the
time. It might have been 16s. I'm not, I don't
know. I guess the older I get, the more I forget.
But I've worked with both those aircraft, but
come to find out, you know, we're armed anyway.
They were out of Otis in Vermont and they were
not armed. So, I mean, I don't know how many
people know that, but if push came to shove,
what their plan was. And one was a female pilot
is that they were going to run their fighter
into this commercial aircraft and take it out
because they weren't armed. And, you know, so
it was crazy. So, you know, we started breaking
up into ABC platoons at some point and we went
into a different group chart. And, you know,
it was down to trade center digging. And my first.
boots on the ground at the trade center trade
center was september 12th to look at the devastation
it was it was the apocalypse in front of us you
know everything was just like collapsed there
was holes there was voids there was like clocks
stopped and there was drinks still on the counter
and then other times it was just debris everywhere
that was unrecognizable you know i mean initially
we were just doing you know bucker brigade you
know i wasn't in the special operations command
and You know, you know, you find out this one's
missing and that one's missing. And then, you
know, I mean, these are guys that I fought fires
with. These are guys that I, I barbecued with
guys that I played hockey with, you know, you
know, just great individuals that were young
and, you know, and, you know, it was, it was
super, super hard. And, you know, we learned
that, you know, 2 ,997, you know, were lost that
day. you know and 343 firefighters were murdered
you know running in like people were running
out you know looked facing a danger or danger
in the face and said you know what i'm going
in to save lives you know and uh you know there's
countless stories of individuals and even civilians
you know that you know um that ran into that
building or stayed in that building and got people
out you know and it was the the greatest of act
of bravery that we've ever seen you know you
know i mean you could go go way back until like
like normandy you know normandy beach you know
and landed on the beaches i mean it was that
heroic you know and it was and it was police
officers too it was it was just absolutely amazing
to see but sad you know to see such a loss you
know um and uh and through time i would learn
i you know i would lose you know this friend
and that friend and you know they're not i mean
i can say their names i mean they're they're
behind me um you know on a wall and uh i say
their names you know and i tell their stories
you know every year i tell their stories to uh
so people do not forget you know um these individuals
that ran in and looked death in the face and
said i'm going in you know i mean You know, Pete
B. Field from Ladder 4 -2 that I worked with,
you know, he was at the medical office that day
on 9 -11 in Brooklyn. And he didn't have to go
there. It was on medical leave. And he left headquarters,
excuse me, in the medical office and went to
Lower Manhattan, came across the Brooklyn Bridge.
Went to 10 and 10, 10 engine and 10 truck, right
across the street from the World Trade Center.
Found a firefighter's gear. I wrote a letter.
Hi, I'm Pete B. Field from letter 42. I'm borrowing
your gear. If I don't make it home, tell my wife
and kids I love them. And make it home. You know,
and there's story after story of guys like that.
But, you know, these are guys I, you know, I
work with, you know, and I would learn of their
passing. And I'm like, you know, again, I was,
I was going to, you know, my whole career. I
mean, I was like 19 truck. We're supposed to
get the Olympics. What year was it? It was like
the magic, the magic year for me. So 20, what
was it? 2020 or whatever, whatever it was. It
was like, we were, we were supposed to have the
Olympics. I'm like, that's going to be my, my,
you know, my golden year, you know, I'm going
to make all this overtime and, you know, and
maybe punch my ticket after that. But who, who
knew how the world would change, you know? And
so we lost 97 guys in the special operations
command and department of order came out and
they were, they were looking for details for
companies that lost. a great deal of members,
you know, to step up and take a detail to that
house and a special operations command. They
were looking for guys to fill a void of the 97
individuals. The experience that was lost as
97 alone was tremendous because of all the technical
rescue stuff. I mean, we lost Mr. Rescue that
day, you know, the guy that wrote the rescue
procedures, Ray Downey, chief of special operations
command. So I never thought about going to rescue.
I turned down an opportunity to go to a squad
company, the JV, if you will. You know, it's
like, you know, we have eight squad companies
and they're trained to the same standards as
the rescue companies, the five rescue companies
who just have less toys, you know, and, you know,
always break their chops and they're the JV,
we're the varsity, you know. And so I talked
to my wife and. I said, you know what? I lost
a buddy that day. His name was Tommy Foley, a
great guy. He grew up in Rockland County, the
same county I grew up in. Loved country music.
He worked in Squad 41. He was appointed to Squad
41 right out of probing school. Him and another
buddy of mine, Aldo Adisi. They were handpicked
to go to... a newly formed squad company. And
Tommy was killed that day. And he was country.
He loved country music. He used to do an ad for
like a voice ad for country music station. Wow,
my tongue got tied. Music station. for New York.
Hi, I'm Tom Foley of Squad 41 in the South Bronx
and I am New Country. And I'd see him at a box
and I'd break his chops and we'd laugh. And Tom
was a great looking guy. He had girls falling
over him. He was an actor. He was a bull rider,
avid outdoorsman, football player. He was voted
Tech Most Eligible Bachelor by People Magazine
for a heroic rescue that he made. He got a lot
of notoriety because it was caught on video and
everything, and People magazine picked up on
it. He was that guy. He was dating all these
beautiful women, but always had time for his
brothers. He could have this beautiful girl on
his arm, and he would come over to you. Jeff,
what's up? How you doing, brother? No. So I said,
you know what? Talk to my wife. I said, I'm going
to throw my hat in the ring. I held the cards
real close to my chest. I didn't tell any of
my brothers in 15. I didn't tell anybody really.
And on my way into Rescue 3 was on 176th Street
and Washington Avenue at the time. 1519 is on
167 and Washington Avenue. So 10 blocks in between
us. So on the way into the firehouse one night,
I have an interview set up with Captain Ralph
Tiso of Rescue 3. And I go in and see Captain
Tiso. And Captain Tiso is a smaller man in nature,
but has a stack of medals like a Mexican war
general. You know, he's pretty much seen it all.
And I go have this interview with him. And I
was like, I don't know. I thought it went well,
but I wasn't like 100 % sure. So anyway, I go
into work in 50 and 19 at night. I don't tell
nobody nothing. At some point I called. Chief
DiBernardo, and he's retired from the job now.
But I said, hey, Chief, can you do me a favor?
I said, I know you hold a lot of weight. I'm
looking for an endorsement. Can you call up Captain
Tiso and give me an endorsement? He goes, what?
He goes, didn't I ask you to go to SWAT 61? I
go, he's got a memory like an elephant. It's
like, you know. So he ended up giving me the
endorsement, and I was one of the first three
new guys in Rescue 3 after 9 -11. Myself, Stevie
Nasso from 33 Truck, and Pat McKenna from 45
Truck in Washington Heights, and 33 Truck, where
Stevie was from, was a Bronx truck company also.
We were the first three new guys in Rescue 3.
So now we've got to go to a tech rescue, the
basic tech rescue. And I think we worked somewhere.
Well, we go to rescue school first. We're going.
So we're at the trade center digging. Next thing
you know, I'm going to rescue school. On the
weekends, you got to be available for overtime.
You go in and help fill these rescue companies.
You're still not up to their standards, but we'll
take you. You know, I mean, you know, and I'm
sitting in dead guy's seat. You know, I mean,
it was eight guys that were killed from Rescue
3 that day. And you continue to train and you
go through tech rescue. And we're down in the
Trade Center digging for our fellow Americans
and our brothers and trying to bring everybody
home and still going to school and going to fires.
And it was a crazy time. I was gone from my family
for over a year. I mean, even when I was home,
I wasn't home. It was a total disconnect. you
know and uh right right wrong or indifferent
you know i mean that's that's just the way it
was you know we were we were at war you know
and uh um it was a crazy crazy time you know
and uh um at some point in time i i wasn't going
to say this and i'm going to say it you know
because i'm not a coward you know but my uh my
unit always was up at some point and they deployed
um And I asked to be left alone at the time.
I didn't, I guess I deferred, but it wasn't like,
I just asked politely. I just went to a special
operations command. I'm working in rescue three.
The war to me was right in front of me. You know,
it wasn't in Afghanistan at the time. But, you
know, many of my brothers went over there and
thank God all of them came home, you know, from
my unit. Unfortunately, you know, we've lost
over 7000 servicemen and women, you know, in
a global war on terrorism. You know, I'm very
cognizant. And we've lost 30 over 30 ,000 suicide,
which is just it's just absolutely crazy. You
know, but so, you know, we continue to to move
forward in, you know, and try to make the job
whole again. You know, but it takes time. You
know, and I mean, even now, I mean, I've been
out of, you know, I got hurt almost 21 years
ago. I don't know if it's this, you know, it's
great, you know, like, you know, the training
level and it's progressed so much and there's
more training. But the knowledge that you lost,
it's irreversible, you know. But, you know, we
continue to move forward. And, you know, it was,
you know, I got to meet guys from all over the
city being able to do this. And I don't know
if I would have ever did it. You know, I mean,
God puts us in storms for a reason, you know,
and I'm in a storm here and I'm trying to, trying
to prove myself into my brothers above that,
that were, that have gone before me. I got it.
And it was, it was, I mean, I've seen a lot there.
The pinnacle of my career in rescue three was
June of, of 2004. It was June 12th, 2004. We
got a report of a fire over on Bruckner Boulevard.
I forget the exact address, but it was a five
or six -story building, and it was reported people
trapped. The dispatcher started us out, started
Rescue 3 out, and that's because it was people
trapped. If it sounds like, you know, you get
numerous calls, people trapped, start out the
rescue company, and this dispatcher, the beef
man. 3 -3 -0. His operator number was 3 -3 -0,
but he was 3 -3 -0, you know, like tree, you
know. So the beach starts us out on this box
and we get there and it was like, and we got
people hanging out the window on the top floor.
It looks like a roof rope rescue. And I got the,
I got the roof rope and started hoofing up and
we get up there as a company and I see 42 truck.
Guy's tying up on a bulkhead. He's got a substantial
object and he's tying up. I look at him. He's
very confident what he's doing. I asked him,
I said, you got this? He says, yeah, I got it.
Okay. I look over, I look over the side and I
see two individuals hanging out a window. It's
an open shaft. And I look and I see we don't
have a substantial object. So I talked to my
partner, Rich Bailey, and I said, I'm going over.
He says, what are we doing? I said, you're going
to put your feet up against the wall. You're
going to take your turns on the hook, and I'm
going to go over. And we drilled on this countless
times. It's not an SOP for us, but it's something
that we do training outside the box. step up
and it's it's basically it's an open shaft so
we're like almost like an L right there's one
guy that's up on the parapet and and then they
and I don't know I guess I'm laying a lot of
cards on the table I'll just you know a lot of
people want to wear you know they want to be
Superman they want to wear the costume they they
want to be a firefighter you know but when it's
when it's time to do Superman shit not everybody
wants to do Superman shit And I'm not a hero.
I mean, listen, I'm not a hero. I just worked
with a great bunch of guys that made me look
really good. So our evolution is being set up
and this individual is supposed to be going over.
And at some point in time, I didn't even see
this happen. He stepped out of the loops. He
was not going over. So Pat McKenna that came
to Rescue 3 with me. from 45 trucks steps into
the loops and he's on one side of the parapet
and i'm on another side of the parapet and we
both go over simultaneously he takes a woman
out of the top floor window and i take a man
out of the top floor window i have to pull him
up he won't come up out of the window he's scared
we get him down to the ground successfully it
was the highlight of my career the first thing
i can do when i when i hit the ground and everything's
said and done is pick up the phone and who do
I want to talk to? I'm going to talk to my oldest
son, Jeffrey, because he is a buff and he loves
the fire service. And I just tell him, you know,
I just did a roof roll rescue and he is ecstatic,
you know? And so, you know, it was a team effort.
Richie Bailey lowered me, Kevin Williams quarterback,
that Mike Tierney was up there. He laid on top
of Rich Bailey, you know? Patty was going over.
There was the guys from 42 Truck. And it was
just amazing. But it was a company effort. And
that's what it is. It's about teamwork and training
inside the box, but also training outside the
box. And that was the absolute pinnacle of my
career. But I wouldn't know that six months later,
my career would be over. You know, I ended up
getting a really high medal with FDNY for it.
And I got the grand prize recipient of Firehouse
Magazine. You know, I got my picture taken and
I got to do this and that, you know, and Daily
News Hero of the Month, yada, yada, yada. You
know, it's all great stuff. But that's all bullshit.
You know, it's like, I mean. you know so many
times you know like it's well us when i say that
that's i got to get the metal and everything
a pretty high metal what was better than getting
a metal is that i am working in 29 truck outside
of the special operations command monday i get
detailed on a day tour to 29 truck in the south
bronx and i get a phone call and they're like
cool department the department phone pick up
the phone wi -fi cool rescue three um Hey, Jeff,
it's Ralph Tiso, the captain who took me to Rescue
3. He goes, I am so proud of you. He's retired
now. He goes, and I told you, he had a stack
of medals like a Mexican war general. He goes,
my whole career, all I ever wanted to do was
to make a room for a rescue. And you did it.
You did it. I'm proud of you. And that was better
than getting a medal. Getting that kudos. I've
always said the same thing, like literally being
told good job by someone you respect trumps all
unit citations and medals and anything else,
because it's genuinely from the heart. So talking
as well about outside the box, being taught all
these ways, like for example, the way I was taught
ladder throws in Florida paled in comparison
to when I went on the West Coast and was taught
to shoulder and stick. be a true like vertical
vent man, you realize that there are these echo
chambers and sometimes, you know, we're so redundant
with safety that you've kind of paralyzed the
ability to facilitate a rescue. And even though
this never happened to me specifically, I remember,
for example, you know, you come up on a, on some
sort of, you know, pedestrian versus vehicle
and they are literally expiring in front of you.
What is saying that rather than spending minutes
and minutes and minutes setting up airbags and
cribbing, that you don't just three of you turn
around to the car, deadlift it up while one of
you drags a person out? Boom. Now, is it ideal?
No, of course not. But when time is of the essence,
yes, these are ideal world and the way that we're
trained and the redundancy and all that stuff.
But there's also times where you just have to
throw that out the window and use your best judgment.
And for some reason, like when law enforcement
kick in the door and go into a fire and pull
someone out, they get medals. But in the fire
service, when someone does that, we get disciplined
or terminated. And it's a strange, you know,
way of thinking about it. So, you know, it's
funny because people came up to me, are you going
to get charges or are you going to medal day?
You know, because it's not in a book. It's still
not in a book. And it still happens. I mean,
we still do it. You know, we do it. We know it
works, but it's not in the books. No. No, it's
not Chicago Fire. I'll tell you that. Thank God.
Not the department. I'm saying the series. Yes,
yes. I had Chick on the show, the guy that actually
created it. And I know, you know, a lot of these
scenes. are not portrayed the way he wanted them
portrayed hollywood took it and kind of molded
it and so you know shout out to him yeah i'm
not too happy with hollywood no well i'm in i'm
in the process of making a show that's going
to show what we actually do and it's going to
be raw so well we have a documentary out there
right now that was shot on the fire that i was
involved in and it's i don't know it's shoveling
shit against the tide right now trying to get
somebody to pick it up you know it's crazy what's
it what's it going to be called Well, it's it's
basically it's Black Sunday, you know, and, you
know, there is a teaser out there. I get I get
sent it to you where, you know, they just submitted
to Sundance and, you know, see if it gets there.
But it's, you know, a lot of people are just
like hard pass. Great. Great. It's a three part
documentary. really raw you know great music
great stories but you know we don't have the
money for right now and i don't know i just look
to hollywood i'm like well there's a lot of garbage
that's out there right now it's not that you
know even in documentaries that you know you
watch it's like no you gotta throw a serial killer
into the plot serial killer on black sunday then
they'll buy it straight away because that's all
there is on netflix at the moment yeah yeah exactly
exactly All right. Well, I want to hit one more
area and then we'll start moving forward towards
the incident that you referred to. One of the
things that I think is so important and you hear
it, I think, especially kind of COVID time moving
forward is a lot of people say, I missed 9 -12.
And obviously what they're referring to is, you
know, when so many people came together and,
you know, you guys obviously were still. working
on the pile for months and months and months
but what so much of the country did you know
the world in fact um is i think what we need
more than ever now you know where we've been
cleaved yet again so talk to me about that whole
kind of principle it was amazing you know i mean
it's really what god wants us to do is to you
know to be compassionate and help out our fellow
mankind you know and uh You know, I remember
the first night, like, hoofing back up. Like,
we didn't have a bus. You know, we're, like,
in lower Manhattan, and we got to go all the
way back up to the Bronx, you know, and we're
hoofing up the West Side Highway. We can't get
a bus. I mean, it was a long time before we've
seen transportation, and everybody's out there
with flags, passing out water, cheering for us.
You know, at the site itself, you know, there's
individuals that came in. Whatever they could
do, mental health, massages, food, you know,
it was just a come together moment, you know,
and everybody was compassionate for one another.
You know, never forget those two words, never
forget. Man, I can't believe how the country
forgot. It's just crazy. Again, I'm a vet. But,
you know, like, you know, and then, you know,
I am conservative. But what I identify is I'm
a patriot. That's how I identify. And, you know,
there was so much pride in the country. And I
miss that so much. You know, I mean, just think
about, again, like, think about how many people
stepped up to the plate and went to war and gave
their life and lost limbs for our country. Because
that's sacrifice. We haven't seen that. I mean,
the greatest generation, World War II. I mean,
if I could grow up in an era, that would be right
there, World War II. People go, you're crazy.
I go, but that was amazing. When I meet an individual
from that era, I'm like, thank you. Thank you
so much. I don't know. We can only pray and hope.
I had a Navy SEAL on just a few couple days ago.
And he was talking about the difference between
a citizen and a civilian. I think it was him,
Johnny. And it was such a great way of looking
at it because he said a civilian is someone that's
just part of a country. And they're usually just
kind of going about their day, receiving all
the things that are given to them. And that's
it. He said a citizen is actually a functioning
part of society that's doing something to try
and make it better. And I, you know, we were
talking about this and I was like, and I think
this is the problem is that we've got a lot of
people and I'm going back, you know, let's say
a decade now. So we're spanning both sides of
the aisle that at the helm presidents and all
these top, top figures that are civilians, not
citizens. And I think that's what we need to
do is look at the incredible human beings that
stepped up in 9 -11 after the, you know, the
Grenfell Tower fire, after 7 -7, after all these,
you know, the Boston bombings, the Vegas shootings,
all these catastrophic events where it really
was a spotlight on humanity. And remember what
a citizen looks like versus a civilian. And if
you have a civilian wearing a suit, living in
the White House, that is a fucking problem. And
that's why we're being divided. But if you have
a citizen of this country, a patriot, like you
said, a leader is going to pull people together.
A tyrant is going to cleave them apart. And that's
both sides recently. Yeah, absolutely. Well,
you mentioned again, you know, after that rope
rescue, a few months later, you had obviously
a catastrophic event. So let's get to January
23rd, 2005. We refer to the fire as Black Sunday.
But, you know, I had, as you said, Chief D on
the show. And, you know, there were two separate
fatalities that day. So talk to me about kind
of, you know, the morning of and walk us through.
All right. Yeah, the media dubbed it Black Sunday.
You know, it was only the second time in the
history of FDNY at two separate incidents that
there were line of duty deaths, which is kind
of crazy, you know. But so I came into work the
night of January 22nd. We were being hit by a
Northeaster. We were expecting over a foot of
snow on the ground. Temperature was in the teens.
Wind was blowing in excess of 45 miles an hour.
So in my neighborhood where I was living at the
time, across the street was my wife's childhood
friend. And she was, Kathleen was a cop's daughter
for NYPD. And my wife was an NYPD's daughter.
And both of them got smart. They married fine,
you know? So my buddy that lived across the street,
John Gormley, Him and another one of my neighbors,
Pat, we owned a snowblower together. It was like
the community snowblower. And we would do each
other's driveways, you know. And so we're out
there, you know, clearing the snow and we're
talking. And my wife's like, yeah, every time
it snows, guess who's going to work? You're going
to work. And then I'm stuck with it with the
kids and snow and everything else. But we're
out there doing it. I say goodbye to John. I
don't remember when he was going to work, if
he went to work that night, but I went to work
that night, you know, and I'm working six at
night to six the following night. You know, that's
normally the way we work. Our schedule gets a
little complicated, but that's really not relevant.
And anyway, I go into the firehouse. It's snowing
still. We have a pretty quiet night tour. Joey's
got the meal that night. Joey DiPinotto's got
the night meal. Brought a nice steak dinner in.
We go about X amount of time, shovel the apron
on the firehouse. We have two rigs. We have rescue
three, collapse rig, and we got the main piece,
the rescue. And we have a few runs, nothing crazy.
A lot of ball breaking at the table, a lot of
problem solving, you know, just a great night
tour. And you never think that that night tour
or tour in general is going to be your last one.
I go like, me personally, I mean, I know guys
die in this job. Guys and gals die in this job,
you know, but I didn't think I was bulletproof.
I remember being back in probie school and the
DI saying one day, look to the left, look to
the right. guys are going to die in this class.
Sure enough, 9 -11 came, guys died in the class.
Then we had a real bad run in FDNY to one year.
We used to, it was like, it was like line of
duty after line of duty. I remember it was so
bad. I came home from a funeral one night and
talking to my wife, I'm taking off my class A
and she's like, another fireman was killed. And
I'm like, no, that was, that was. The funeral
I was just at. No, another fireman died. It was
just like one after another. So you never, like,
I don't know, like, if you just, like, you put
it out of your mind and you're like, it's not
going to be me. You know, I never, ever, I'm
not John Wayne crawling down a hallway. I never
was John Wayne. I mean, I told my story about,
you know, the roof rope rescue, but that's the
job. That's not like doing heroic stuff. I mean,
there's a lot of heroic stuff that happens in
this job, but it wasn't like I was. And guys
die. In the words of the late, great Patty Brown
that was killed on 9 -11, sometimes we do everything
right in this job and guys still die. And it's
factual. I mean, we can't control it. I mean,
it just is what it is. you know when we come
into this world the good lord knows when we're
coming into this world and he knows when we're
leaving you know and what we do in between that
dash is so important you know so anyway um you
know we have this nice meal and ball breaking
and solving the world's problems and we rest
our eyes at some point because we never really
sleep in the job you never you know and we're
resting our eyes and Just before the 8 o 'clock
hour, I think it was 0759 hours, you hear this
box come in, and we're sitting in the kitchen,
and we're having a cup of coffee, and we're solving
the world's problems of that day, whatever they
were, breaking shoes. And it sounds pretty good.
We're listening up, and shortly after it, you
know, Rescue 3 is on a box, and it's a job. And
we get dispatched about a half mile away with
a foot of snow on the ground, winds blowing in
excess. of 45 miles an hour and temperature in
the teens. And we're responding to this box at
236 East 178th Street for a class three non -fireproof
multiple dwelling, 40 by 90. That's the dimensions
of the building. Quick size up. One is a street.
I don't know, like for firefighters that are
listening, the front of the building is exposure
one. The left side of the building is exposure
two, which is a lot in a private dwelling. Three,
the rear is a rear alley, and four is a similar
attached. So fire is on the third floor. It looks
like a textbook fire. Now, is there any textbook
fire? No, there's no textbook fire. And then
I can tell you about a fire that just happened
the other day in the Bronx. It was a car fire.
My son was that. It was this huge explosion.
It went up five, six stories. And it was like
none that I've ever seen. I talked to senior
guys about it. Chief Day, Mike Dugan. It was
Mike Dugan on your show also? I don't know. He
was, yes. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm talking
to both of them. And they're like, I've never,
ever seen this. It was a bloody. It was a steel
gas tank that shot five, six stories in the air.
It was absolutely crazy. So here we are at this
textbook fire, if you will. It looks like we're
going to be here half hour, an hour tops, right?
And we reported to the chief. Chief, where would
you like Rescue 3? I went the inside team to
the top floor. I went the outside team to the
roof. At some point, there's a report of somebody
missing in the building. It's three apartments
per floor. Fire apartment is 3I. We ended up
on the floor above in 4L. We go in. It's a moderate
smoke condition. The line is stretched. The secondary
is to the floor above. It's not charged. They
ended up losing water on the fire floor at some
point. They backed the line off the top floor.
down to the fire floor we continue on without
the protection of a hand line um we're up there
with 27 truck 27 truck is a very capable truck
great truck company um they got the primary searches
in progress three apartments up there they're
all popped open everything looks great right
well that's what you see on the outside when
you get on the inside um you know when we go
into a fire i mean you know this james but civilians
that don't know this is that we're going into
a maze Well, we went into our hamster habit trail.
I'm going to date myself, you know, with the
hamsters that used to put the little pet hamsters
in, let them run around through their maze and
stuff. Well, so these apartments, three I and
four L, they were chopped up into, each apartment
was chopped up into five more apartments inside
of them. So there was padlocks and walls that
weren't supposed to be there. On the fire floor,
three I, there was a... Two by fours and medium
density fiberboard that were used as a wall.
So it was a medium density fiberboard on each
side of the sheetrock. It ran about 10 to 12
inches shy of the ceiling because they had old
radiators in there and they wanted the heat to
travel over to the other side. These are illegal,
these single room occupancies. Up in 4L, it got
worse. It was two -by -fours with double -sided
sheetrock. And the fire was burning on the fire
floor. And they lost the water there. And the
fire continued to burn, continued to burn, continued
to burn. They were in there pushing. Well, when
they got the new lawn down there, they thought
they were actually initially hitting the fire.
But what it was, the fire was coming over top
of the wall. And what they were doing, they were
actually hitting a wall. It was dark in there.
So they really couldn't see. Even with the thermal
imaging camera, they couldn't decipher that,
you know? And so the fire continued to burn and
make headway. And yeah, so we're up there on
the top floor. And if you listen to the radio
transmissions, I don't know if you can add this
to your podcast because it's interesting because
within seconds you... They're all up on YouTube.
You hear the chief asking, you know, what do
you got up there on the top floor? And Lieutenant
Curtis Minor, 27 truck, tells him, you know,
the chief's asking, do you have extension? He
goes, minor extension, minor extension, Kay.
Seconds later, you hear we have fire blown out
into the hallway. We need a line on the top floor.
And that's my captain, Captain Chris Kay. So
it goes from zero to 60 in seconds. So we're
up there searching with 27, and we're going from
room to room to room, and we're going to the
other apartments up there, and we're finding
nothing. But there's still a report of somebody
trapped up there. So I'm Rescue Lawrence. Joey
DiBernardo is Rescue Hook, and my boss is Captain
Chris King. And Chris says to me at one point,
he goes, Jeff, he goes, I really need you to
take your tick, your thermal imaging camera,
and pan the walls, right? And I am. I'm like
looking. But now I'm even being more diligent.
And I pan the walls in the kitchen, and I pick
up fire in a wall. And I take my halogen, and
I pop a small hole in a wall. Fire immediately
starts to vent out. So I don't have a face piece
on at this point. And it starts getting snotty.
And it's starting to go lights up. I step out.
Chris is already on the radio. I just said his
words. You know, we urge you if you need a line
to the top floor. The line that we had up there
was backed off. There's not another line up there
yet. Lieutenant Myers, you said we had minor
extension. It just goes sideways in a matter
of seconds. Fires are burning eight times hotter
and faster today than they ever did 20 years
ago. You know, with the contents that we have,
windows not filling. I step out into the hallway.
I got my tick. Through the smoke, I pick up images
of these firefighters that are operating beyond
the main entrance. I advance towards them. I
have a face -to -face with the firefighter. I
thought I knew who it was at one time. Now I'm
not too sure. I said, hey, brother, we need to
fall back. He says, we're trapped. I turn around,
and it's floor to ceiling. It's fire. And we
push into this. back bedroom, which they deemed
in the diagram town's bedroom too. And the door
goes closed and May Day after May Day messages
going off. I mean, I've been on a receiving end
and a giving end May Days. Two different perspectives.
We're stepping on each other on the radios. Our
radios, they work better today than they've ever,
But we've always had a problem with our radios.
9 -11, we had a problem with our radios. They
got better radios. It's the infrastructure in
New York City and trying to overcome that. And,
you know, when a mayday is transmitted, you know,
we're supposed to cease radio operations. The
incident commander and the individual that's
trapped is, you know, they're the ones that are
supposed to be talking. But it's, you know, there's
a mayday going off from. From Joey D, there's
a mayday going off from Lieutenant Myron. I transmitted
a mayday, but unfortunately not all the radio
transmissions got there. There was a pilot program
that was started by FDNY to have recording devices
on the chief's rigs to capture our portable radio,
our handy talkie transmissions. This is the first
fatal fire where they actually... captured the
radio transmissions. Not everything is there.
I don't think it was deleted. I just don't think
that the radio is carried to the recording device.
And now it's a two -sided rescue is in the process.
You know, the brothers are on a roof. We carry
a roof rope that I talked about to rescue civilians
and firefighters. They know we're trapped. We
get pushed to these windows and we're... It's
a four -story building, but it's five stories
to the ground. It's a below -grade entrance.
Everybody's pushed to the windows. Joey's in
bedroom one. I'm in bedroom two with Lieutenant
Myron and Gene Stolowski and Brendan Cawley from
27 Truck. Gene Stolowski was 27's irons, and
Brendan Cawley was 27's can man. He was a probie,
Brendan was. And this is his second fire. His
brother Michael was killed on 9 -11. And here
he is, his second fire. He's trapped. And then
it was also firefighter John Ballew that was
a friend of mine. He's trapped up there. He was
a chauffeur at 27 Truck. The fatal fire report,
it's not just me saying this. There was a lot
of information that was gained during a very
stressful time. fighting for our lives still.
And they put out a fatal fire report. There's
a lot of fallacies in there, and I'll just leave
it at that. You know, Gene Stolowski concurs
with me that it's not factual. We went through
a civil trial with this whole thing after, and
we proved that everything was not there. But
these firefighters, six firefighters are trapped
at windows, and an aerial can't reach the rear
of the building because they can't get back there.
We can't get to the rear fire escape because
of these illegal walls. So if these walls weren't
there, even though if we breached them, we're
going through fire. It delayed us from getting
there. Now we've got to go through fire and everything
else to get there. And the kick in the teeth
or kick in the balls is that housing preservation
department was at this building six months prior,
noted SRO conditions. and failed to rectify or
redeem the situation. The superintendent, landlord,
owner, they did scumbag moves at this fire. They
knew what they were doing. They claimed they
didn't, but we proved that they did, you know,
in the court of law. They took 30 -amp fuses,
the old screw -in fuses, in 20 -amp service and
screwed them in there so that the fuse wouldn't...
meltdown. On the fire floor, they had a refrigerator,
a microwave, an Xbox, a TV, and a space heater
all hooked up into a 99 -cent brown extension
cord. That's what melted down. It transmitted
to a bed. The fire continued to burn and burn
and burn. It burned up. The wind drove it back
down on top of us, and it was assholes and elbows.
and mayday after mayday. It was a controlled,
chaotic atmosphere. We were all pushed to windows.
Same bedroom, Stolowski, Coley, and Myron are
at one window. Lieutenant Myron at some point
decides he's going to hang over the side of the
building. He's five stories above the ground.
He says, you're going to hang here by your fingertips
and drop down. Kurt was a taller man, six foot
plus. um takes six feet off your fall and he
dropped down to the ground down to the ground
he goes um the next one out is uh is is uh brendan
crawley and uh he goes out the window and then
firefighter stolowski he got he wrote he gets
up on the window the room is lighting up fire
is filling the room and uh he rolls out the window
he gets hung up on a child guard gate he's hanging
upside down At some point, his mask was hooked
to the child guard gate. Let's go down to the
ground. He goes. I don't physically remember
seeing these guys go, but it's still there with
me. And I know I'm the last guy in this room.
John Ballew, I don't know where he was. I'm going
to stop there with that part for a minute. Up
until December of 1999. FDNY, we all had personal
ropes with a jump to our harness that we could
quickly and efficiently bail out if the need
arises. It's like a fighter pilot sitting on
top of a multimillion -dollar fighter. He can
quickly and efficiently blow that canopy, hit
that egress, and that seat ejects out of the
air, and up he goes and down to the ground he
comes safely. So we had these ropes that were
40 feet in length. They're quick and easily deploy.
And you take your turns on your hook. You bury
your hand into the wall. We've got to find a
substantial object first. Flip one end onto the
substantial object. Trace it back to your area
of egress. Take your hand out the window. Bury
it into the wall. Turn back in. Take four turns
on your hook. Take that same hand. Punch it into
the wall. Roll out the window. um and then bring
it back bring your hand back around your back
for a break and then slightly let it out get
down 10 feet to the next window or get down to
the ground you know um our uh fire commissioner
that was at one time was the union president
tom von essen decided he knew better than everybody
else um and took him away from us um i don't
know if it was a cost saving measure he knew
better than everybody else You know, we went
to Bunker Gear. I mean, when I came on a job,
we were wearing rubber boots and long coats.
And then, you know, FDNY, unfortunately, we evolved
through tragedy, right? That's how we learned,
right? And it was the Watts Street Fire when
Captain Drennan, Firefighter Seidenberg, and
Firefighter Young were roasted in a stairwell.
that's when we got bunker gear so we designed
this new bunker gear which is great that allows
fully encapsulates us lets us to go deeper into
fires um we had the we were the first department
to incorporate our harness into our turnout gear
so it actually when you pulled on your your turnout
pants you had your harness there your rope was
in your pocket yeah you just had to take your
rope out find your substantial object Take your
turns on your hook and out the window you go.
He decided, and I know this going through court,
is that he decided we were having heart attacks.
Guys weren't carrying them. It was all bullshit.
Whatever reason, he decided to take them away.
The union fought for it. The sergeant at arms,
Charlie Ballin, fought and fought and fought
for it. But he knew better than everybody else.
And we had 33 documented cases of bailouts with
personal ropes. With that being said, we weren't
great at record keeping. Unfortunately, in FDNY
at the time, a lot of stuff went into the circular
file, which is the garbage can. Or it was just
too lazy to be put into the system. So we were
our own worst enemies at the time. So five of
the six firefighters that day that went out the
window had harnesses, but no rope. So it's kind
of like having an engine. with no water you know
a pumper with no water or having a pistol without
no bullets in it you know it's like it's it's
an oxymoron so three guys jumped that i that
were in the same room with me and john balloon
went out a window also i went out and bought
a rope myself six months to the day prior to
using it at firehouse magazine trade show in
baltimore maryland and This rope cost me about
$375. I put it on my credit card. I was in the
military. My wife's working a job. You know,
I'm still an ear guard. I'm working a sod job.
And both my boys played ice hockey, very expensive.
Everything was pay the bills in the house, take
care of the kids, right? So I come home from
this conference and my wife sees the credit card
receipt and what's this. She's like, that's crazy.
And I'm like, this rope may someday save my life.
Six months to the day, it had a hand in saving
my life and Joey Day. And I'll tell you that
story now. He said, so I get pushed up onto this
window air conditioning unit, five stories above
the ground. It's probably held in by two screws
and fire is blowing out over my head. In the
words of Joey Day, he described that. There's
video of him talking about it. Fire is blowing
out over my head like a jet engine. And I look
to my left, and there's Joey Dick. And I say,
Joey, I got a rope, but I got nowhere to tie
it to. He says, throw me the rope. Quick argument.
I don't know how I'm going to lower him, but
he goes, you got a wife and kids. You go first.
The Bible verse, John 15, 13. No greater love
have one that laid down his life for his friends.
So I throw Joey one end of the rope. I say a
quick prayer. He wraps it around his arm, stands
on it for friction. I take my under rope. I wrap
it around me in a ballet fashion. I grab onto
it. I probably have a lot of slack. This is speculation,
but I'm pretty sure it's what happened. I had
a lot of slack in it. I roll out the window.
I didn't take my turns on my harness because
it's not, it really wasn't incorporated for this.
But at the same time, this is the fight or flight,
you know, and. I know we talked about this before
in a phone conversation is that a normal human
being under stress cannot tie the shoelaces.
And I'm in a bad, bad situation, right? I just
watched three of my brothers jump, four when
you count John, and I'm waiting and waiting for
these guys to come over the top with this roof
rope. But it's not happening. And they're trying
to get a lineup that they knocked this far down.
And I have no blame for any of the firefighters
that were there that day. Everybody was doing
their job. Unfortunately, you know, we had a
landlord that was all about money, making more
money and exploiting these people that lived
in Swar. And I roll out the window. I pendulum
in the rear on the three side to the two side,
the left hand side of the building. I come back
in. I hit the window right underneath Joey. and
my hands opened up. I got cut like 15 feet off
my fall, and down to the ground I go. And I land
an inch or two from falling in that below -grade
entrance where Firefighter Blue, Stolowski, Qualley,
and Lieutenant Iron landed. Joey takes the same
rope, flips it onto a child guard gate, rolls
out the window in a belay fashion, loses control
of the rope. I don't know how many feet he cut
off his rope. He crashes. to the below -grade
entrance. Catastrophic injuries for all of us.
We lost Curtis Myron that day. John Ballew would
pass later on that day in the hospital. And Stolowski
has got an internal decapitation. His knee came
up, hit his chin, drove his head back, and he
was dead. He was not breathing. I'm the first
guy that they get to when they come around the
side of the building. My buddy, Steve Gillespie,
that you have on, he's coming around. He told
me this a couple of years ago. He's in squad
41. He's coming around the two side of the building.
He looks up and he thinks they're overhauling.
Like you see stuff coming down and I come down
right in front of him and it's me. And he's like,
holy shit. You know, I didn't know this until
a couple of years ago. And he's got to move on.
He's talking to me. He knows I'm in a lot of
pain, but other guys are in bad shape. And Gene
is the worst out of all of us. I mean, Kurt's
dead, but Gene has that internal decapitation.
He's not breathing. And a member of Squad 41
that was a former paramedic does a jaw thrust
on him and stabilizes his neck and gets a breather.
And he had a less than 5 % chance of living and
or walking again. And I played golf with him
a couple of times in the last few months. You
know, I mean, he hits off the ladies' tees, but
it's all good. You know, it's all good. You know,
I suffered catastrophic injuries. Joey's suffered
catastrophic. I mean, I broke almost every bone
in my body. I shattered my pelvis. I bled out
72 units of blood before they had all the bleeding
stuff. I had a flail chest. compartment syndrome
of my abdomen. Um, um, they had to cut me from
my sternum to my belly button, take all my internal
organs and rest them outside of my body. It broke
both my shoulders. My pelvis is still racked.
Um, my left shoulder is still in five pieces.
Um, my right shoulder is in two or three pieces.
I had fractures in my cranium burns, but I'm
here, you know, um, um, He walked out of the
hospital like 10 days later. I think it was like
10 days later he walked out of the hospital.
He's still a firefighter with the city of New
York today. The binary intervention, an angel,
his brother Michael protected him that day to
not let mom and dad go through the same pain
again. You know, amazing. You know, Joey, catastrophic
injuries, like broke all the bones in his feet,
broke his pelvis, you know. I mean, a lot of
injuries, both physically and mentally. Physical
and mental pain was tremendous for all of us.
All of us spent different times in ICU, intubated.
Gene was, they trached Gene. He spent the longest
in this. From the minute my wife got to the hospital.
She's talking to my doctor, Dr. Michelle, and
she says, my head is tremendously swollen up.
Firefighters I talk to, they're like, everybody
thought I was dead. He's dead. He's not making
it through this. Dr. Michelle told my wife, Jill,
all my injuries. My wife said, put them back
together any way you can, and I'll take them.
She met, and I... Put her through hell for, I
don't know, like maybe she would still say I'm
still putting her through hell. But I mean, I
think the worst is the worst is behind us. I
mean, it took a tremendous amount of time to,
like I had to learn to walk and function again.
And I'm not asking anybody to feel sorry for
me. I remember, you know, I did the hospital
that I was in, like where I did my rehab was
Helen Hayes Rehab Hospital. one of the top hospitals
in New York for rehab. And it was in my backyard.
And I fought with my doctors to get out of ICU
to get to Helen Hayes so I could see my children
on a daily basis. No, I mean, I couldn't get
up with them. I mean, I had my body's put together
by crazy glue and duct tape. And not literally,
but I mean. Normally, when you break your pelvis,
you have plates and screws in your shoulder.
There's artificial parts that they put in there.
I don't have any artificial parts. I had an external
fixator put in my pelvis because of my thermal
bleed, my abdominal compartment syndrome. They
just couldn't do it. So my pelvis is twisted
and racked. I'm in a daily pain. I had compression
fractures up and down my back. I was in bad,
bad shape, you know. And I had an external fixator
in my pelvis. I had five and a half inch titanium
bolts on either side of my pelvis with like a
halo, like you see a football player, like a
neck injury. But that's what I had across my
pelvis. I was probably 205 the day I got hurt.
I just turned 38 five days prior. When I first
weighed myself, I think I was 145 pounds. I mean,
I looked like somebody out of a concentration
camp. It was that bad. And I remember, you know,
every day was a struggle to just wake up and
want to live. You know, I mean, I cried a lot.
I prayed to God a lot. I got, you know, I got
real close with God. I overcame that, you know,
but it took a long time. And then I still dealt
with pain through all those years, you know,
like months, days. It was a long time. I was
on fentanyl. I was on oxycodone. I was on morphine.
I was on Ambien. And I was washing it down with
Heineken. Not looking to kill myself, but I just
wanted to sleep. I didn't want to feel pain.
And, you know, hindsight's 20 -20. Was it right?
No, no. Down the road when I got out of, you
know, I was like two and a half months inpatient
at a rehab hospital, over a year outpatient,
learning to walk and function and move my shoulders.
And, you know, like I don't have like complete
mobility. You know, it's like I stumble from
time to time, you know, when I walk. And, you
know, one of my friends, he asked me, he goes.
why do you walk bowlegged? I go, what do you
think I walk bowlegged, asshole? You know why
I walk bowlegged. You know? And then I get people,
you know, they look at me, I don't use my handicap
thing all the time. You know, like I put, you
know, handicap and I was listening to one of
the SEAL talk about this on another podcast.
You know, it's like, you know, because I've gotten
out of a car, you know, in a handicap spot and
somebody looks at me and they go, you're handicapped?
You know, and I get into it with them. Well,
this guy, Kevin Kent, you know, he's friends
with Bird too. It's like. you know he he's a
disabled military vet right so he gets out of
the car you know like um you don't look disabled
he's like thank you very much yeah thanks for
noticing it's like i'm gonna do it this time
you know because you know what i look at i look
at me you know like i have a time a hard time
seeing brendan quali myself and gene stilowski
when we're side by side and like we went the
same We went out the same floor and we all have
different results and a different result. And
then, and then those different results even get
darker. You know, when John Ballew died that,
you know, that day and then Kurt Myron died that
day and then Joey died six years later, you know,
um, it gets dark, you know, it's like, um, you
know, I, uh, I got awful pain meds first, first
and foremost. My brother worked in pharmaceuticals.
My wife was real scared with me being on all
these. Dude, we didn't even know what fentanyl
was back then, you know, 20 years ago. Like what
fentanyl? I was on these patches. They had to
wean me off and my wife had to put gloves on,
but I was on morphine. I tripped on morphine.
Like you wouldn't believe it was like, it was
the craziest. Like I'm not a combat veteran.
You know, I served my country for 21 years, but
I was like. I felt like I was in combat. I felt
like snakes were around me. It just had me like
crazy. Like I never, ever want to be on that
stuff again. And it, it never, whatever pain
medicine I was on, it never took the complete
pain away. It just, it just pacified it. You
know, I mean, you were still in pain. It was
just pacified it, you know, and it was just.
And then I was like, I mean, I started right
in an ICU. Well, not an ICU. Yeah. When I was
still in the hospital, I was still in ICU and,
um, um, they were doing, um, uh, whatchamacallit,
um, Reiki. And, um, and I said, I'll give it
a try. Holistic medicine. I'll give it a try.
And then, uh, one of my, my reverend came and
seen me and his, his wife, uh, she was suffering
from, um, from Lyme disease, real bad. And, uh,
She was doing acupuncture, and I was talking
to him about it, and I went to the same doctor,
and he's an MD. His name is Dr. Anthony Lau,
and I hope he's still alive. He's an amazing
individual. He's from China, and he was an anesthesiologist
that left anesthesiology and just started practicing
acupuncture. I was walking with a cane for a
long time. And he helped me lay a cane down.
And then I was doing cranial sacral therapy.
Mental health, that was a whole other thing,
you know, dealing with that. You know, God got
me good. I thank God. And I was like, oh, thanks,
God. See you later on Donald Road. And it kind
of went about my way, you know. And then I got
sick down the road again like 11 years later.
I don't know if it was 9 -11 or whatever it was.
And, you know, then I got good with God again.
Um, a lot of mental health, you know, like my,
you know, like I was in and out with mental health,
talking to different people and I lost my shit
more, more times than one with my wife, blew
up in front of my children, didn't behave the
right way. Um, you know, I have a lot of, a lot
of regret for, you know, who I was and, you know,
I was suicidal at times, you know, I, I had ropes
tied up, you know, ready to hang myself. I thought
about suicide by cop. I thought about just driving
my car into a wall. The pain, you know, was just
too much. And, you know, part of me died in that
back alley that day, you know, even though I'm
here. You know, I'm good with where I am today.
You know, I'm not in front of it, you know. But,
I mean, I struggled for a really, really long
time, you know. I was talking to Johnny the other
day, and he was talking about, more or less talking
about mental health. And one of our friends made
a post, and I missed the job. I'm like, Johnny,
we all fucking missed the job. And I kind of
went at him. I did go at him. I wasn't kind.
I went at him. I'm like, you know, there was
a guy in a 42 truck the other day. He made two
grabs. I go, nobody's talking about this guy.
This guy was innovating. You know, I go, nobody's
talking about it. Nobody knows anything about
him and what he's going through. And another
guy went down, a freak accident at a job, and
I'm telling him about that. And then I get news
about one of my buddies, and I'm not going to
tell you who he is. I heard he lost his life.
I heard he passed. And then a day later, I find
out he took his life. He got injured in the line
of duty. And, you know, we're not in this battle
alone. you know, and, you know, we lean on one
another. Gene Stolowski and I, you know, 18 years
ago, well, 18 years from the fire, we're golfing
in Austin, Texas, and we're sharing the same
hotel room, two separate beds, just so we're
clear. And he's laying there in his tighty -whities,
and Gene's not mobile. You know, he's very labor.
He walks with a cane, and he, like, you know,
most of the time he rides with a rascal. um to
get around and uh and i said hey brother you
want some coffee he's like yeah so i go down
to the lobby get coffee i come back upstairs
we went down this rabbit hole like that was it
was 18 years later and we went down this rabbit
hole we're crying like babies like talking about
this like stuff that we never discussed and you
know talking about what sets us off you know
like i could be watching something with my wife
and tears are running down my face and gene's
like i could be watching a cartoon And it'll
set me off. And then you talk to another guy
and it's the same thing. You know, it's like,
how is this? But, you know, going back to the
Misfit Toy Club, our Misfit Toys, you know, they,
I don't know, people still line up to join the
Misfit Toy Club. You don't want to be in a Misfit
Toy Club. But fortunately, I'm a member of it.
But I'm out in front of it. You know, we talk
to one another. and help each other through through
the tough times you know it's like because that's
what we need to do because you're not in this
fight alone you know um i made this big post
about it the other day because i want people
to know the phone is on you know i i lost a i
lost a buddy just recently i gotta talk about
this guy trying to get too teary -eyed about
it because you know you know i've had more than
one Navy SEAL. I mean, Ryan's not the only Navy
SEAL that I that I know, but he's like, you guys
are you guys are like us, you know, and. That
that's a compliment and I guess a curse, you
know, because we don't we don't ever get to stop,
you know, like, I mean, we're constantly going
to to fires and emergencies and we see it just
the way that our. Our SEAL community is out there.
They're in the thick of it. They lead from the
tip of the spear. Anyway, my buddy Keith Winchell,
he was in the Air National Guard with me. He
was a fireman with me. Great guy. Funny as shit.
Loved him. Always full of laughs. When I got
hurt and I left St. Barnabas Hospital in the
Bronx and went to my rehab hospital, Helen Hayes
Hospital, I was still in really bad shape. That
external fixator was in me, and they had to transport
me by ambulance. They were shooting me up with
morphine on the way. The highways were shut down
as I was on them. There was processions by fire
departments up and down the highways. There was
a helicopter flying next to us. Um, and the lead
radio car of the police car was my buddy, Keith
Winchell, uh, highway one police officer. He
became, you know, he was a mounted police officer.
He rode a motorcycle and everything, and he was
tackled there. He was, he was that guy. He led
from the tip of the spear and an NYPD. And, uh,
two years after I got hurt, he was chasing a
motorcycle on a motorcycle and he got clipped
by a car and he had an incomplete L4 injury.
And, uh, he ended up in a chair. Didn't stop
him. He would race. And he lived in Florida in
the Tampa area. He would do bike races in the
chair. An avid outdoorsman, continued to hunt
from his chair or track vehicle and enjoying
life. And we talked often, you know, once a month,
once a week, whatever it was, whatever was going
on. And, you know, I was his. You know, I listened
to his stories. He listened to mine, you know,
and we leaned on one another. That wasn't enough.
You know, I mean, he suffered so much. He had
three battles with prostate cancer from the effects
of 9 -11. And it took him and I miss him. But,
you know, we always talked and the phone was
on. He was one of the guys that... my phone's
in do not disturb mode his call was coming through
like my families you know and that's what we
need to do you know for for our brothers and
sisters you know i'm sorry you know i'm i'm from
old school you know and i i didn't work with
any females in my time you know it was all you
know it was all the brotherhood you know so um
but yeah Well, I want to get to some of the things
that are available to people now, some of the
things that you and I were talking about before
we hit record as far as other plant medicines
when we're talking about the addiction and the
mental health crisis in our profession. But you
told me before we started this about how suicide
was very personal within your family. So let's
kind of go back there and then walk through some
of the solutions to people listening now. Yeah,
so my first year, I was about a year on a job,
and I lost my dad to suicide. I was there that
day, and I don't want to get into details of
why he did it. I still don't know why he did
it. I just know that all these years later, I
still feel the sting. My brother feels the sting.
Mom felt the sting until we lost her, and I hope
it takes the pain away from that person. But
it doesn't, you know, it leaves it with the family
forever, you know. And, you know, it's a cowardly
thing to do. It really is. You know, there's
such a network out there. There's so much mental
health out there. Like, I remember after 9 -11,
right, we drove the counselors out of the firehouse.
We weren't ready for, like. civilians like to
come in and tell us how to deal. Like, I mean,
they would go get like a rubber arm out of a,
and throw it in a spaffle bucket and bring it
in the kitchen. Look what we found. And they
would run out of the, you know, run out of the
firehouse. You know, it's like, but that's like,
that's what it was. FDNY, unfortunately, we've
perfected mental health to an extent. I don't
think we've perfected it. We've made it so much
better. that everybody looks like the model for
the fire service right now is looked at fdny
like like because we know how to do it unfortunately
through tragedy that's how we know how to do
it you know and uh um there's a lot of stuff
out there um to help um i just recently became
a peer counselor i've been doing peer counseling
unofficially um and i'm not a i'm not perfect
at it I am definitely not perfect. I'm going
to be the guy that's going to be sitting there
listening and learning. You want to come talk
to me on the side, I'll tell you what I've been
through and how I got through it. First and foremost
is probably my dear wife and how she's put up
with so much of my shit. But we're always looking
for answers and solutions. Because it's not just
you that you're driving. The anger that you feel
is spilled out into your family and your friendships.
You know, you become more and more shallow. And,
you know, there's so much out there today. You
know, it's not taking a pill, you know, to really
to get in front of this. Every doctor you go
to, that's what they want to do. They're sitting
down there with their head down, not looking
at you. They don't want to really get to the
root of the problem. They want to get to the
next patient. You know, I don't want to say there's
not some great doctors out there. But, you know,
I mean, you know, it's not taking a pill. you
know um it's finding the right counselor um and
then you know just recently the topic of conversation
has been in the last couple years and the hot
topic in the last couple months is ibogaine you
know and and and doing you know not just doing
the ibogaine uh treatment but you know having
you know coaches there and breathing techniques
and everything and i'm learning more and more
about it each and every day and i and i and you
know one of your one of your guests which i consider
to be A great, great person is Angela Skuden.
You know, the tragedy that she went through and
to, you know, to make life better, you know,
is starting the 343 Fund and, you know, providing
resources to first responders and our service
members, you know, which is phenomenal. You know,
I personally know, I know a few people that have
went through it and I've been weighing it. I've
talked to Angela, you know. possibly going through
it. Um, I've had a lot going on in my life, not
life or death right now, but stuff going on at
home that I haven't been able to really address
it right now. Um, but I, I do plan on, you know,
like really addressing it and, uh, you know,
just, just, just know that there's, there's other
resources out there, you know, um, you know,
going back to Joey, you know, like real quick,
you know, everybody like what happened with Joey?
Yeah. I'm sure everybody's going to have that
question. What happened with Joe? Right. Because
I was I was in such shock when I got the news
that Joey passed. I didn't even cry initially.
I was crushed. He was in a lot of pain, both
physically and mentally. A lot of pain was in
his feet because he broke all the bones in his
feet. But then he was also on psychological medicine.
Right. And I don't know if he took two batches
that day. His dad was just recently. We just
had a training seminar and he was talking to
the students. And he said he had a lot of memory
recall issues, like short -term memory stuff.
And did he take his medicine that morning? And
I tell you, some of the maintenance medication
that I'm on, like, did I take it today? You know,
and then you take it twice, you know. But taking
some of this medicine twice, you know, it put
him into respiratory distress, and we lost him.
But Joey was in the best place of his life. that
i've seen him since his accident when we lost
him november 22nd 2011. he was he had a new girlfriend
um that we haven't met yet he was like everything
was life's good what's up brother love you brother
and then here he's gone it's just like it was
just like another crushing blow it's like when
is this gonna end you know and uh you know they're
you know it can't just be the fda every day and
big pharma you know here's another pill to fix
this because that's all you know i i don't know
if there's that cure or pill out there you know
um i've had this conversation with many many
people obviously there's a lot of people on here
that have had incredible results with one of
the tools being Ibogaine, Ayahuasca, MDMA. And
if you look at recently, MDMA was actually denied
by the FDA to do MDMA -assisted psychotherapy.
But the FDA was one of the approved OxyContin
that then created this opioid crisis that we're
still dealing with today. So that needs to be
a fucking conversation right there. Going back
to what you said as suicide, and this is something
that I've... evolved and learned from all these
people because i've had you know almost 1200
conversations now and many many of whom were
at that point they were as you were saying you're
looking at the noose or holding the gun some
of them went through with it and they survived
and thank god they were they were on the show
but i started hearing the same thing again and
and it totally reframed the way you know that
i think too We, you know, the natural reaction
is to think, well, suicide is cowardly. It's
selfish. How could you think of the family? But
then you listen to these people that were there
and through the perfect storm of, and there are
so many elements, unaddressed childhood trauma,
sleep deprivation, organizational betrayal, relationship
issues, the side effects of alcohol, side effects
of psych meds, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
The brain literally becomes miswired. And you
have people that a lot of them listening in this
podcast have signed a blank check to risk their
lives or even give their lives for complete strangers,
just as we talked about. So now you have this
shifting, this miswiring of the brain through
all these insults that it's getting, where now
their actual reality is, I am a burden. I'm the
reason why my family are in pain. If I just remove
myself. they will be better off now for anyone
with a healthy brain listening to go but that
doesn't make any sense exactly but when it's
this brain in this distorted state it makes perfect
sense to them now you add in the fact that you're
already willing to die for a stranger now you've
got the perfect storm for a first responder suicide
and so what i realize now is at that moment that
actually was most likely a selfless and courageous
act they were probably terrified But they did
it for the people that they love in that distorted
state. So I think the more that we can frame
that, if you are listening to a voice in your
head saying you're a burden, you're the problem.
If you just leave, everyone will be happier.
That should be on the front of every fucking,
you know, suicide prevention poster out there.
Because aside from wanting the suffering to end,
which of course, whether it's physical, mental
or both. That is the other thing that I hear
over and over again. And I think it's important
because then everyone who's lost someone like
you losing your father, it reframes what they
were thinking at that point. And it don't think
it is, fuck my family. I'm just going to take
myself out. I think it's the opposite. I love
my family. I'm the burden. If I just do this,
they'll be happier. You know what you're saying,
Adam? I'm looking at notes that I've had here
that I've used. lectures and whatever. And I'm
like, and it's like, why me? Why did I live?
You know? And it's like, you know, it's like,
but you know, that's questions that I've had,
you know, and I, I live with PTSD, you know,
it's in check survivor's guilt. Cause I was the
rescue for him. And you know, when, you know,
I'm the guy, I mean, rescue was born to rescue
trap firefighters. That's why the rescue was
there. But, you know, I mean, But I, you know,
here's another podcast. This is powerful stuff.
You know, it's like, this is Joe Rogan, right?
I wrote this quote down. It says, if you don't
leave your past in the past, it will destroy
your future. Live for what today is, for what
today has to offer, not for what yesterday has
taken away. And that's, that's powerful stuff.
You know, it's like. You know, and I like I save
notes for a reason. You know, it's like to look
back and, you know, you need to it needs to be
like right in front of you all the day. You know,
it's like like with a horse with blinders in
front of you. You just see those those quotes.
It's like, you know, because I think through
through tragedy must come triumph. You know,
there's got to be something good. God put us
in this storm for a reason. I don't know what
the reason is and why, you know, we. And certain
people have to go through, you know, I mean,
there's, I mean, there's people that are going
through worse stuff than I have, you know, don't
feel sorry for me. But why? I don't know. It's
how you get through it and how you navigate it.
And you need, you need support, you know, and
when somebody says, I don't have a family, well,
there is support still out there for you. And
I was blessed that I had my wife there and my
children, specifically my wife, to help me through
this whole ordeal. She is my rock. And she's
always looking for answers, still today. It's
all about longevity. We're both getting ready
to turn 59. She's five days my old lady. Yeah,
I got me a cougar. But, yeah. it's just it's
just important you know to have uh support and
you know that know that you're not in this battle
alone you know it's like yeah well i think and
that's just the thing is every other we said
earlier everyone that we've lost we cannot get
back but what can we do to change it and that
can be you know putting ropes as funny as orange
county florida when i worked there um let me
see i was there 2008 so not too long after you
know your horrendous line of duty deaths that
filtered into the fire service where i worked
and i had you know um harnesses in my bunker
gear and i had rescue rope and i actually had
rescue rope in previous departments but orange
county didn't have any of that when i first got
there so that's the technical side and we'll
get to the foundation in a second um yeah let's
talk let's talk about that james you know because
with the ropes so when they took the ropes away
from us right they were supposed to replace them
that's what the department order said but they
never did it right that was 890 000 when they
when they took the ropes away if they would have
just replaced them and gave us the same ropes
they spent 16 .5 million dollars to develop this
new system fdny did right and every firefighter
for the city of new york has a personal safety
system today because of Black Sunday. But why
should it take that? And why in the fire service
today? I mean, I've traveled all across the United
States and I talk to different, I'm a guy that
always talks to firefighters. I see somebody
with a shirt on, a hat on, what are you doing?
So I'm in Podunk, USA to one day and in an airport
and I see this firefighter. I'm like, hey, I'm
Jeff Kuhl. I go, I'm retired out of Rescue 3.
Hey, how you doing? I said, are you on a job?
I said, where are you on a job at? He goes, I'm
on a job. I go, yeah, I know that. Where are
you on a job at? Well, Podunk, USA. I go, you
know, the Black Sunday Fire? No, he's a newer
firefighter. Do you know bailout ropes? No. Well,
here comes the chief of this Podunk, USA, right?
I'm like, hey, Chief, I'm Jeff Kuhl. I'm with
the Joey D Foundation. I give him my card. I
go, hey, we provide grants to fire departments
across North America that don't have bailout
systems. You know, the fire block Sunday. He's
like, no. I'm like, Chief, I go, not for nothing.
I go, you're a leader in the job. I go, you should
be into the job. No, not just be on the job.
And, you know, whether it happens on the East
Coast, West Coast, North, South, you know, when
a big fire like that happens. You should know
about it. I mean, major incidents, you should
know about it. I still know about major incidents.
And still today, the fire service fights personal
safety ropes. My own job, FDNY guys are fighting
the system. And you know what? Many of the procedures
that we follow in FDNY, you know what they're
written in? The blood of my brothers that were
killed in the line of duty. you know and that's
that's the words of the the late uh the the great
uh captain bobby morris of rescue one that's
now the commissioner of the stanford fire department
you know um you know we need to learn from our
past because you know if we don't learn from
you know history history is bound to repeat itself
you know and why why do we fight evolution you
know we fought bunker gear we fight everything
you know it's like Yeah, even the way that we're
worked, this is something that I talk about a
lot. You know, there is no need for any studies
to show that 56 hours, you know, then add in
mandatory overtime, 80 hours plus is killing.
You know, firefighters left, right and center.
And just like a bailout row, we know that a healthy
work week would mitigate so many of these issues.
And, you know, we lose so many. I mean, we lose
like 100 in what we used to call line of duty
deaths and actual operations and then heart disease
and cancer. But now it's double that in suicides.
And, you know, how many in overdoses? Because
that's more stigmatized still. So if we're really
going to be serious about saving firefighters'
lives, we need to look at the operational side,
but we also need to look at, like we said, mental
health tools and then sleep, rest, recovery,
so that you can be the best version of yourself.
But yeah, there's no bigger spitting in the face
of someone that you've lost to do absolutely
nothing after it's happened to try and change
it. Yeah. For sure. All right. Well, you mentioned
the foundation. Let's expand a little bit on
that so people know about it and can donate.
So when we lost Joey, we were crushed. First
and foremost, his family, his mom and dad and
sister, you know, and how, you know, what can
we do to keep his memory alive? And John Salka,
Chief John Salka. Captain Mike Dugan, they were
talking to Chief D and some of Joey's friends
and, hey, let's do a training seminar for Joey
and, you know, raise some awareness and yada,
yada, yada. And out of that, the Joey D, Lieutenant
Joseph P. DiBernardo Memorial Foundation was
born and that was 12 years ago. And our mission
statement is to provide personal safety systems
and the training to fire departments across North
America. In 12 years, we've awarded $1 .5 million
in grants to fire departments across North America,
30 some odd states. And we hold a huge training
seminar each year. That's our big fundraiser,
Suffolk County Fire Academy in November. It's
a three -day seminar. First started out just
like a one -day lecture. We evolved. I would
say that we're, I know that this probably pissed
people off, but we're better than FDIC or Firehouse
right now because it's not for profit. Any profit
that we raise goes back out there to make firefighters
safer. I think that we work like, you know, like
95 cents of every dollar that's awarded goes
back out there to firefighters. You know, everybody
that sits on the board, a chief is the president
of the foundation. We have two co -vice presidents,
Billy Rohr and Kevin Yost, both retired from
FDNY, and then his friends. I'm one of their
friends, and I'm a trustee that sits on the board.
We do it for the love of the fire service and,
you know, to pay it forward and to make sure
that it never happens to another firefighter.
And, you know, the PSS has saved firefighters'
lives. I'll tell you for a fact, a couple of
years ago in the Bronx, a member of Squad 61,
his name is Joe Morstat. He bailed out of, I
think it was like a three -story building with
the PSS. He got trapped. It went sideways real
quick. And I talked to him that morning. He credited.
the sacrifices of Black Sunday for saving his
life that day. He's still a firefighter today.
So we run these big training seminars. It's two
days of hands -on, one day of lectures. We bring
in the best in the fire service from across the
country. All our instructors, they do it pro
bono too. We pay for their hotels and their flights.
But they received no pay for it. And we've trained
thousands and thousands of firefighters. In the
United States, a couple of years ago, our furthest
was Honolulu, Hawaii. We had a bunch of Hawaiian
firefighters come in to Long Island to get trained.
We had firefighters from north of the border
coming in from Canada. And this year, we had
two Ecuadorian firefighters come in. We're touching
the world now, which is amazing. And I think
it's four years ago, we branched out into Texas.
We run another seminar in Texas. And that one's
coming up. I wrote notes down here. It's February
20th and 22nd of 2026. But it's just amazing
to see the thousands of firefighters that we've
trained at these seminars to go back and touch
their own departments. and train more firefighters
you know and you know and we're giving firefighters
an opportunity you know it's like we've spent
thousands and thousands of dollars on firefighters
on their ppe personal protective equipment to
allow them to go in to save lives and property
yet we don't spend another couple hundred dollars
to afford that firefighter the opportunity the
need to quickly and efficiently bail out if the
need arises Because there is no greater death
and pain to stay there and burn to death or jump
and hope for the best. Where a 10 -foot fall
might not kill you, you'd definitely be sitting
in a chair for the rest of your life. Sipping
out of a sippy cup, which is not a great place
to be either. And we owe it to our firefighters.
And why we don't do it, I don't know. A lot of
it is money. I mean, I can tell you this. It's
an important fact is that in, I think it was
2009. My brain is going a little sideways. I
may have some notes here. But in 2009, we had
10 firefighters. It was actually 2009. We had
10 firefighters in the state of New York jump
out of three -story or less wood -framed structures.
So this is not big city stuff, right? So it was
the city of Buffalo, city of Syracuse, and the
city of Yonkers. Ten firefighters, three -story
or less wood -framed structures. City of Yonkers,
for those that don't know the geography of New
York State. City of Yonkers butts right up against
the Bronx. January 23rd, 2005, six firefighters
went out a window there. It's enough to learn.
We're going back to Podunk USA story. It's enough
to learn to say, hey, that can happen here. I
speak across the country about Black Sunday and
the need for personal safety systems. And I don't
do it for myself. It's not for financial gain
for myself. All the money that is, you know,
like my speaking fees, they go to the Lieutenant
Joseph P .D. Bernardo Memorial Foundation to
make sure that this doesn't happen again. Going
back to Yonkers, two firefighters went out the
window that day. One firefighter, he was a rescue
one firefighter, Patty Joyce, was killed that
day. He was impaled on a rod iron fence and he
bled out. We need to learn from, you know, history
or history is bound to repeat itself. And we
don't need that to continue to happen. Well,
especially with the financial side, because over
and over again, whether it's operationally like
that. And I even after I left the department
that had the harnesses woven into the next one,
I still my whole career, I've had a carabiner
and a. you know, some webbing so that I can at
least do some sort of hasty bailout. And then
Anaheim, California, she did some great training,
even just going under the armpits and holding,
you know, I mean that you tear up your bunker
jacket, but you'll survive. Well, it works great
in a training atmosphere. Everybody needs a P.
James, just to disagree with you for a minute,
because I've done all that, you know, it's like
the hasty harness when time is of the essence.
Again, you can't tie your shoelaces. It's an
option. But you can't tie your shoelaces under
stress, you know. And we owe it to our firefighters.
We're not sending our firefighters in without
an SCBA and, you know, turnout coat, turnout
pants, gloves. You know, we want the best, but
yet we're failing. We're failing in the fire
service. And it's up to the leaders. It's up
to the mayors. I've heard more than one fire
commissioner, chief of department, or mayor stand
there, and he or she was a great firefighter,
you know. Well, what did you do for that firefighter?
What did you do to prevent that from happening?
And we owe it to them. It's like, enough's enough,
man. You want to talk the talk, let's walk the
walk. I know I've talked for a long time, but
I appreciate you listening to me. The point I
was making is I believe in the... bail out rope
so much that even when they didn't actually provide
it i still carried a version of it myself i appreciate
i appreciate i appreciate that but i i want our
listeners to understand that because you know
i've had that argument you know i gotta you know
i can make a hasty harness or a swiss seed or
you know i can do a belay you know i did a body
belay guess what i did it a hundred and some
odd times in training real life it didn't work
out that way you know so um Because, you know,
you get in that, you know, tunnel vision, you
know, fight or flight, you know, it sucks, you
know. But, yeah, I wanted to talk, you know,
go back to legacy real quick before we end because
I know we're probably well beyond it, you know.
So, you know, I talked about individuals stepping
up, you know, sons and daughters of my fallen
brothers, you know, from FDNY. I want to give
a kudos to Curtis Myron, Lieutenant Curtis Myron's
son, Dennis. He graduated. He's been out in the
field almost a year now. He's in 331, engine
331. Just awesome, awesome stuff. You know, my
family, you know, they've been through a lot,
but, you know. Dad's never coming home for the
Myron family. And he left a son and two daughters.
And it's just great to see the next generation
to fill the ranks of FDNY. And why it's not a
legacy, my son Jeffrey, he followed in the ranks
too. He works in my first firehouse. He's an
engine 50, just came off probation. And he's
in the academy and he is asking different questions.
And both my boys, Jeff and Dylan, they know the
sacrifice of Joey, Joey DiBernardo, Uncle Joey.
And that's what they refer to as Uncle Joey.
You know, dad is here. Because Uncle Joey placed
their dad's life in front of his own that day,
you know. And Jeff asked, you know, when a firefighter
dies on the line of duty for FDNY, the badge
is retired. And Jeff asked, what's the chances
you think I'll get Joey's badge? I said, well,
you got to ask Chief DiBernardo and Mrs. DiBernardo
for his badge. And they obliged. He probably
wears his badge number. That's amazing. Absolutely
amazing. Going back to what you were talking
about with the money, I'm going to hit this and
then we'll go to closing questions because I
think we're talking almost three hours now. Even
if you don't care about human life, and I'm saying
this because the number of fire departments that
refuse to change. even though like locally here,
the county I live in have lost numerous young
firefighters, numerous to suicide alone. Even
if you clearly don't care about human life, if
you look at the money, the budget, it still makes
sense proactively investing in safety equipment,
like you said, 800 ,000 for the ropes and millions
for the incident. the lawsuits and all the things.
And if you look at, for example, the work week,
I get all these people saying, oh, we can't afford
it. But if you look at the overtime. The money
that's spent on lack of retention from training
and equipping and paying at the pensions and
then they leave for a better department. You
look at workman's comp claims because everyone's
just beaten into the ground and they're getting
hurt and they're having mental health issues,
line of duty, deaths, God forbid, medical disability
payments, lawsuits when we make mistakes. There's
millions and millions and millions and I don't
understand because I never went to any sort of
business school how these financial gurus don't
just look and go, well, why wouldn't we? invest
in ropes? What happens if one firefighter dies?
What is going to be the payout for that? Or as
we had locally, the poor decision made to drive
through a train track and get hit by the Brightline
train. I don't think that was someone thinking
clearly. I guarantee you that sleep deprivation
was probably part of that poor decision. And
that is millions, millions now to replace that
truck and repair the train. And again, all the
lawsuits attached to that. So I don't understand
why, again, even if the deaths alone, the well
-being of your people doesn't keep you up at
night. And that I think is, you know, if it doesn't,
then maybe you're not in the right position in
the first place. But it's the false economy of
a we'll just cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Major incident
happens and now you're paying out five times
what it would to just invest in the first place.
Well, that's what they did. They rolled the dice.
The city of New York did it. They killed my brothers.
They murdered my brothers. And the blood is on
their hands. The only good thing about that is
that every firefighter for the city of New York,
they have personal safety systems now. There's
case law. And they'll always have them because
of the sacrifices of January 23, 2005. Absolutely.
Well, I want to throw a few closing questions
at you quickly before I let you go. The first
one, is there a book or are there books that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
discussion today or completely unrelated. So,
no, I'm going to be like Angela. I don't read
books. I've never read a book. No, I'm kidding.
So there's a lot I look over. You know, I know
I discussed. um, surviving survival, um, and
deep survival, both by Lawrence Gonzalez, excellent
books. You know, um, I like to read like, uh,
you know, lone survivor was a great book to me
that happened to same the same year. Um, uh,
2005 was a bad year, Marcus Littrell. And, and,
you know, I mean, he is the lone survivor and,
uh, I've met him before and, uh, I've done on
his podcast and, uh, it's just a great book it's
an inspiring book you know it's it's anything
with overcoming adversity you know but surviving
survival and deep survival you know or you know
they're great books to read they're deep but
they're great books absolutely yeah lawrence
was on the show amazing conversation all right
what about film television documentaries any
of those that you love well i told you i hate
hollywood there's so much out there but um You
know, I'll tell you, I know a lot about the Kyle
family and Chris Kyle. You know, American Sniper,
that movie really, it really touched something
in my heart. And there's a lot of similarities
there, you know. That was a great movie. You
were waiting for me to say, like... like backdraft
or chicago uh or not what's the ladder 49 or
something like that at rest no i didn't get that
you know no i'm a i like i like military type
movies you know it's like you know they inspire
me you know it's like the real heroes you know
it's did you ever watch backdraft 2 never no
i'm glad i got there ahead of time so i can save
you an hour and a half of your life I mean, when
I make it my show, that's one of my inspirations.
If that could get funding and the script could
be written by a four -year -old child that had
never been in the fire service, then I can get
mine put on the screen. It was absolutely awful.
Our whole story, there was a script that was
written and it was presented to Hollywood and
all these studios, they wanted to change stuff.
And thank God we had a life rights attorney.
through my friend i believe he was on your show
also is bobby burke was bobby was on your show
robert yes yeah yeah actually he's gonna be part
of my show he's he's uh yeah so he's an amazing
guy and you know he told us how to protect ourselves
and they wanted to i don't make me a girl or
joey a girl and change our ethnicity and this
and that it's like like what are we doing this
is a real story this is the real this is not
you know some you know like I mean, we watch,
you know, Jeff and I, you know, because my wife
likes to watch different stories and she's watching
9 -1 -1 or Chicago Fire or whatever. And Jeff
and I were just like, oh, this is bullshit. It's
like, this is the real deal. You know, it's like,
you know, the only real documentary that, I mean,
it was two of them that I would say that really
captured the job was Brothers in Battle. um about
fdny that was phenomenal you know um and so many
of those guys that i know that were in that you
know that i worked with and then um um the one
on detroit uh what was it burn burn yeah that
was pretty inspirational too that was probably
well done to see not providing again not providing
what they need you know it's like well no Yeah,
same story. It's all over the world. Like I talked
to Australian firefighters and British firefighters,
and, you know, they're all dealing with the same
thing. Yeah. Well, speaking of amazing people,
is there a person that you recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? Well, you've had Chief Pippin Otto
on here already. So, I mean, he was, he's definitely,
I don't know. I run in a circle of a lot of great
people. One doesn't pop to mind right now. But
if I do, James, I will definitely send it your
way. Absolutely. I think we talked before when
we were speaking maybe about Gene. Have I got
that right? Oh, Gene Solowski. I mean, he is
an amazing individual. I don't know if he'll
do it right now. Absolutely amazing. Right now,
he's still employed by the city of New York.
I know he'll defer right now, but when he retires,
I'm sure you could get him. There's some things
that he can't say right now. Perfect. All right.
There's no rush. This will be here when he gets
out. Yeah, Brendan's another great guy too. Brendan
Crawley. I mean, he was the probie that day.
You know, I mean, they both, we all have different
stories. I wish, you know what I wish? I wish
I was still, I wish there was nobody, you know,
the guys that I was in a circle with that I ran
in with an FDNY knew me. And that was it. But
that's not the case anymore. You know, a lot
of people know our story. They might not know
our name, but they know our story. And, you know,
I'm sure we all feel the same. We wish we were
still doing it. My biggest regret in life, and
I have no control over it, is that I didn't get
the opportunity to crawl down a hallway with
my son. Yeah, I can imagine how powerful that
would have been. All right. Well, the very last
question before we make sure everyone knows where
to find the foundation and then you online, what
do you do to decompress? What do I do to decompress?
Well, I take a nice walk every day with my dogs
and my wife. I walk like a two mile walk, play
golf a couple of times a week. I play with the
farming group and then I play with a bunch of
other, a bunch of guys. It's called the mouth
contents, you know? That's, that's me. And then,
you know, just watching TV, you know, I like
a lot, I watch a lot of stuff on Paramount. I
like a lot of Tyler Sheridan's stuff, you know,
so I watch a lot of that. That's my decompression.
That's my, my idiot. And I do, well, I can't
even say I decompressed this year with my New
York Rangers. I'm a diehard, you know, New York
Ranger fan, but my Rangers suck this year. There's
no heart. No. So that adds stress to my life.
Yeah, I was going to say, that's the wrong way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So for people listening
then, where first can they find the Lieutenant
Joseph P .D. Bernardo Memorial Foundation? So
you can go to joeydfoundation .org and run there
or just search joeyd .org. We're on Facebook.
We're on Instagram. Yeah, there's a lot of social
media stuff out there. And again, a training
seminar is coming up in Woodlands, Texas, right
outside of Houston, February 20th through the
22nd of 2026. While we're on Joey, if everybody
can just take a moment, say a little prayer for
his family, Saturday the 22nd is 14 years ago
that we lost Joey. Joey was an encyclopedia of
knowledge, not only with FDNY and technical rush.
And there was no doubt about it. He was going
to be a leader in FDNY. He got promoted to lieutenant
after he got injured. He was on the lieutenant's
list, but he just never got to really act in
a rank. And he was, again, an encyclopedia of
knowledge and just loved the job. And, you know,
a lot of people, you know. like to say hey you
know i'm on a job well one of joey's quotes is
like are you on a job or into the job be into
the job you know i mean that's what it's about
you know learning a job every day you come to
work you know hone your skills on something you
already know or learn something new from the
chief of department all the way down to the probie
and if you're not doing that it's time to go
if you're not looking you know to to leave the
job better than the way you found it it's time
to go absolutely What about if people want to
reach out to you? Where are the best places on
social media? I'm on Facebook. That's where you'll
find me on Facebook. I think I'm just Jeff Cool
on there. Everybody finds my son on there. I'm
on there. You'll see him. You can find me on
there. And one other thing I do, I said through
tragedy must come triumph. And we talked about
9 -11 and never forget, they're not just words.
So there's a golf outing that's been around for
years and years and years. And it actually started
out as the Al Robinson golf outing. Al Robinson
was a member of Rescue 3. He was killed in the
line of duty. I believe it was 1992. And a golf
outing was started after. After that, it was
the Al Ronaldson golf outing, and it was a huge,
huge golf outing, multiple courses. 9 -11 happened,
and it became 9 -11, never forget golf outing.
It was huge. It started dying off a couple of
years ago, and one of the guys that ran it said,
I think this is going to be the last year for
it. It's here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
I said to Nikki, I said, hey, Nikki, I said,
never forget or not just words. Let me take it
over. So myself, Billy Owens, retired out of
Rescue 1, and Jimmy Walsh, who was a captain
of the 17 truck, we took it over. We've since
added Johnny Walters from Rescue 1 and Joe Peter
from Ladder 42. We're the committee, and we took
it over. The first year, two years ago, we were
on two courses. The 2025, we're on three courses.
Next year, we're going to be on four courses
for 2026. All the profit from that goes out to
FDNY foundations. And then we also do boots on
the ground here in South Carolina. The first
year we did it with Lowcountry Firefighter Support
Team, which is counseling services for all of
South Carolina firefighters. And then this year
we did PGA Hope, which is adaptive golf for our
veterans here in Horry County. We have 30 ,000,
30 or 40 ,000 veterans here in Horry County.
So it's adaptive golf for them. So, you know,
never forget. It's not just, it's not just words.
And so you could, you could check out that at
FDNY911golf .org. And that golf hunting is May
17th through 19th of 2026. Registration will
be opening next week for that. That's what keeps
me busy in the fire service. It still keeps me,
you know, vicariously. I live the job through
my son. I get to watch him. You know, he just
made the FDNY hockey team, and he's actually
going to California this weekend to play in a
tournament out there with the team. And God willing,
he'll dress for the big game against NYPD, you
know. That's always a fun one because, you know,
get to punch a cop in the face. That being said,
I married into an NYPD family. My father -in
-law was a lieutenant. My one brother -in -law
was a sergeant. The other one was a captain,
you know, and they're all retired now, thank
God, because it's a crazy world to be a police
officer. You know, I have a ton of police officer
friends, you know, and at the end of the day,
it's one team, one fight, you know. 100%. Well,
Jeff, I want to thank you so much. It's been
such an amazing conversation. One of my longest
ones for a while now, just over three hours.
But that's because there's just, you know, so
much to talk about. And, you know, most importantly,
like you said, honoring the people that we lost
and then, you know, just being determined to
change things so that we don't, you know, they
didn't die in vain. That there was just a repeat
of the same exact thing. So I want to thank you
so, so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you, James. And, and so the lecture I do,
it's called it can't, it can't happen to me.
Because that's, that's, that's sarcasm. You know,
everybody thinks it's not going to be me. You
can do the next one up, you know, so and, you
know, again, we're here for one another. So thank
you.