WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.940 All right, guys, this episode is sponsored by 00:00:01.940 --> 00:00:04.519 Responder Wipes so that we can transcribe some 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:06.599 of these episodes and make them accessible to 00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:08.900 the hearing impaired and the foreign language 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:11.720 speaker. So I'm not going to give you some cheesy 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:14.720 story about how I've used responder wipes to 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:17.679 save babies from burning buildings and mop up 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:21.179 oil spills. The bottom line is when we fight 00:00:21.179 --> 00:00:24.239 fire, we are covered in crap. We try and remove 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:26.399 our gear. We try and change our hoods. When we 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:28.660 get back to the station, the goal is to scrub 00:00:28.660 --> 00:00:30.879 our bodies as much as we can. But obviously, 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:32.960 there's areas of our skin that are exposed, especially 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:35.399 when we're loading hose and putting ladders away. 00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:39.740 So I love these products simply for two reasons. 00:00:39.859 --> 00:00:41.799 Firstly, they use micellar water, which is the 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:44.259 same thing that my wife's natural makeup removers 00:00:44.259 --> 00:00:47.119 use, which are known to absorb a lot of these 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.520 contaminants from the skin. And secondly, they're 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:52.719 huge. The large size that they have is 12 inches 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:55.140 by 24 inches. So you imagine like a drying towel. 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.159 So much bigger than some of the ones that are 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:01.399 out there. And I want to have as much of that 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:03.719 as possible to wipe down on my arms, my face, 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:05.879 my neck, and get all that crap off me. before 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:07.859 we get back in the engine go back and try and 00:01:07.859 --> 00:01:10.060 scrub those cancer cores and chemicals from our 00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:13.060 skin so thank you to responder wipes if you want 00:01:13.060 --> 00:01:15.980 to learn more about them go to responderwipes 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:19.739 .com r -e -s -p -o -n -d -e -r -w -i -p -e -s 00:01:19.739 --> 00:01:22.760 .com learn more and find out how you can buy 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:27.430 them Welcome guys to episode 95 of Behind the 00:01:27.430 --> 00:01:29.469 Shield podcast. My name is James Geering and 00:01:29.469 --> 00:01:33.689 my guest this week is the back mechanic aka Dr. 00:01:33.890 --> 00:01:37.430 Stuart McGill. This interview was incredible. 00:01:37.769 --> 00:01:39.890 Now if you do not have a spine you can turn off 00:01:39.890 --> 00:01:41.810 now it's going to be of no benefit for you whatsoever 00:01:41.810 --> 00:01:44.290 but everyone else I highly recommend listening. 00:01:44.569 --> 00:01:48.189 We delve into an array of topics from the posterior 00:01:48.189 --> 00:01:52.870 chain, hinging, training barefoot the direct 00:01:52.870 --> 00:01:56.310 correlation between sleep deprivation and musculoskeletal 00:01:56.310 --> 00:01:59.989 injuries and a host of other areas dr mcgill 00:01:59.989 --> 00:02:02.829 is a wealth of knowledge and he opened multiple 00:02:02.829 --> 00:02:05.010 rabbit holes that i'm going to start going down 00:02:05.010 --> 00:02:08.520 myself So that being said, please go to iTunes, 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:11.360 rate the show. If you use an Android app, rate 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.900 the show there. And then again, as I always say, 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:16.080 please just share it. Put it on your social media, 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.740 send it to friends. You probably know a thousand 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:22.300 people that have back pain and then 10 ,000 that 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:24.939 you wish didn't have back pain. So let's share 00:02:24.939 --> 00:02:27.000 this episode and many other episodes and get 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.340 this incredible knowledge to our fellow firefighters, 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.099 police officers, medics, and every other human 00:02:33.099 --> 00:02:36.120 being around the planet. That being said, I introduce 00:02:36.120 --> 00:03:01.090 to you Dr. Stuart McGill. Enjoy. Welcome to the 00:03:01.090 --> 00:03:03.509 Behind the Shield podcast. Dr. McGill, firstly, 00:03:03.650 --> 00:03:06.009 where are we finding you on planet Earth today? 00:03:06.789 --> 00:03:11.889 Well, I'm at home in Gravenhurst, Ontario, which 00:03:11.889 --> 00:03:17.650 is halfway between North Bay and Toronto. I believe 00:03:17.650 --> 00:03:21.610 the last two days are our first two days above 00:03:21.610 --> 00:03:25.530 freezing this year. We're on the opposite side 00:03:25.530 --> 00:03:28.789 of the spectrum here in Florida. So we mentioned 00:03:28.789 --> 00:03:30.810 this briefly before we start recording, but again, 00:03:30.870 --> 00:03:32.669 I want to offer my condolences to everyone in 00:03:32.669 --> 00:03:34.849 Toronto after that horrible attack that you guys 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:39.969 had this week. It's, again, being in Canada, 00:03:40.050 --> 00:03:44.409 we think we're immune to such things. Uh, but, 00:03:44.469 --> 00:03:47.770 uh, absolutely not. My mother who's 90 called 00:03:47.770 --> 00:03:50.629 me last night in tears and she just can't sleep 00:03:50.629 --> 00:03:53.509 thinking about the, uh, the families and, and 00:03:53.509 --> 00:03:58.090 all involved. But, uh, yeah, it's a crazy world 00:03:58.090 --> 00:04:01.069 we live in. It is. It is. And I hope one day 00:04:01.069 --> 00:04:02.710 we can figure out, you know, the, the common 00:04:02.710 --> 00:04:05.430 denominators behind all these attacks. Um, so 00:04:05.430 --> 00:04:09.389 were you born in that area? Yes. Okay, so just 00:04:09.389 --> 00:04:11.469 briefly, what was your family unit like? What 00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:13.229 did your parents do, and how many siblings did 00:04:13.229 --> 00:04:19.689 you have? I had one sister who's seven years 00:04:19.689 --> 00:04:24.230 younger than I. I'm married to my wife, Catherine, 00:04:24.430 --> 00:04:27.170 and I'm going to make you sick for a minute here. 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.279 And she has four sisters, but I've known them 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:34.839 all my life. My dad worked for her dad, believe 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.720 it or not. And I remember her. I shouldn't say 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.220 this. I'm five years older or four and a half, 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:44.300 as she likes to say. I remember her in diapers. 00:04:44.420 --> 00:04:49.300 So that is a bit weird. It is a bit weird. Yeah. 00:04:49.379 --> 00:04:51.720 Now, my wife's six years younger than me, too. 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.959 So I'm right there with you. Yeah. Brilliant. 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.370 And then what did your parents do? Well, my dad 00:04:59.370 --> 00:05:03.470 emigrated here, actually. He had Irish parents, 00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:07.470 grew up his teenage years in Liverpool, England, 00:05:07.589 --> 00:05:11.269 and then first emigrated to Australia. And I 00:05:11.269 --> 00:05:13.269 said, Dad, why did you ever leave? And he just 00:05:13.269 --> 00:05:14.889 said, well, I got fed up with beautiful sunny 00:05:14.889 --> 00:05:17.750 weather. And he wanted a challenge. So he then 00:05:17.750 --> 00:05:21.000 emigrated to Canada. And his original plan was 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.740 to be a hard rock miner, but then decided that 00:05:24.740 --> 00:05:29.500 with kids, he better get responsible. And he 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:32.060 took an accounting course and he ended up being 00:05:32.060 --> 00:05:37.120 an accountant at a bank. I think he was bored 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:39.180 for the rest of his life. You know, he'd been 00:05:39.180 --> 00:05:42.879 through the war. And, of course, he was in the 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:48.040 Navy. And when that settled, he said, you know, 00:05:48.100 --> 00:05:51.379 it was the best and worst of times. So exciting 00:05:51.379 --> 00:05:56.100 to be a young fella, you know, commanding a small 00:05:56.100 --> 00:06:02.040 gunboat and then spent the rest of his life bored 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.240 to tears, I think. It's hard to match that adrenaline 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.889 though, World War II. Yeah. All right. So when 00:06:08.889 --> 00:06:10.709 you were young, I mean, obviously, you're well 00:06:10.709 --> 00:06:12.389 involved with athletes and tactical athletes 00:06:12.389 --> 00:06:15.930 as well. Were you a sportsman yourself? Well, 00:06:16.149 --> 00:06:18.269 yes. I don't want to give the wrong impression, 00:06:18.430 --> 00:06:21.069 though. I was not a natural athlete by any stretch. 00:06:21.189 --> 00:06:24.529 But in high school, I played American football. 00:06:24.610 --> 00:06:27.129 And in fact, that's what took me to university. 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:30.029 I really had no academic interest at all. I was 00:06:30.029 --> 00:06:34.779 on track to be a plumber. And I went to university 00:06:34.779 --> 00:06:36.860 and the football coach said, well, what do you 00:06:36.860 --> 00:06:38.600 want to study? And I said, well, I really have 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:40.240 no interest. And he said, good, we stick you 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.160 guys in physical education. So I actually started 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.459 in phys ed. But with meeting some professors 00:06:47.459 --> 00:06:51.639 who were very influential, I ended up taking 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:55.279 mathematics and physics. And then long story 00:06:55.279 --> 00:07:00.980 short, I then. did a master's in biomechanics, 00:07:01.019 --> 00:07:03.519 primarily because at that time I was interested 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:05.519 in road cycling. So I went to the University 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.019 of Ottawa so I could ride my bike in the French 00:07:08.019 --> 00:07:13.689 Gatineau part of Canada. And then I was... playing 00:07:13.689 --> 00:07:16.769 hockey with the professors team at the University 00:07:16.769 --> 00:07:20.629 of Ottawa. And it's like rugby, I guess, which 00:07:20.629 --> 00:07:23.769 is a game you're familiar with. The professors 00:07:23.769 --> 00:07:27.209 play different universities and the host team, 00:07:27.430 --> 00:07:31.769 everyone sits in the same dressing room afterwards 00:07:31.769 --> 00:07:34.009 and has a beer together after they've beaten 00:07:34.009 --> 00:07:36.250 the hell out of one another for a couple of hours. 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:40.139 And I sat beside a professor from Waterloo named 00:07:40.139 --> 00:07:43.120 Bob Norman, and he just happened to say, why 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.839 don't you come and see my lab? And I did, and 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.000 I switched to spine biomechanics for my PhD. 00:07:50.180 --> 00:07:54.399 So that's how I ended up being a professor of 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.259 spine biomechanics. Brilliant. Yeah, I went through 00:07:57.259 --> 00:08:00.620 the University of Florida exercise physiology 00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:04.500 program, and it was great, but I was not destined 00:08:04.500 --> 00:08:07.639 to stay within the educational system. Right. 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:13.589 So from that point then, were there any... moments 00:08:13.589 --> 00:08:15.870 leading up to that where you had encountered 00:08:15.870 --> 00:08:18.870 either your own back injuries or seen other people 00:08:18.870 --> 00:08:20.670 that you kind of had an aha moment that that 00:08:20.670 --> 00:08:22.569 was another area that you really want to delve 00:08:22.569 --> 00:08:26.319 into Well, people ask, did I end up in the spine 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:30.720 area because of my own back? Not really. I did 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.759 fracture C4 in my neck, believe it or not, playing 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:39.940 hockey and fractured my hip and had numerous 00:08:39.940 --> 00:08:42.379 injuries. But that wasn't the driver in this 00:08:42.379 --> 00:08:46.500 at all. I just have a personality. I think that 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:50.080 whatever I get into, I just study it and enjoy 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:55.820 it. But as I became a young professor, our starting 00:08:55.820 --> 00:08:58.899 question was simple. How does the spine work? 00:08:59.139 --> 00:09:02.919 So our line of investigations were to answer 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:05.580 that question. But I'd get invited to different 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:08.419 medical meetings, orthopedic meetings and neurology 00:09:08.419 --> 00:09:10.679 meetings and occupational health meetings, et 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:13.480 cetera, and be invited to speak about how the 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.509 spine works and becomes injured. And the docs 00:09:16.509 --> 00:09:19.470 would say, that's a very interesting perspective 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:24.549 on disc bulges or end plate fractures or whatever 00:09:24.549 --> 00:09:27.190 the topic was. Would you come and see a patient 00:09:27.190 --> 00:09:29.210 with us? And I said, well, no, I'm not a clinician. 00:09:29.490 --> 00:09:31.850 And they'd say, well, don't worry, we will be 00:09:31.850 --> 00:09:34.710 there with you. And I learned very quickly that 00:09:34.710 --> 00:09:37.649 our perspective was very different than the traditional 00:09:37.649 --> 00:09:42.450 medical model. And I was trained quite quickly 00:09:42.450 --> 00:09:48.100 then to see. patients and I mean as you know 00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:51.960 now that's I've retired from the university and 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:55.399 I have a clinic at my home here and athletes 00:09:55.399 --> 00:10:00.139 now fly in from around the world for a consult 00:10:00.139 --> 00:10:06.980 because for the first time we are honing in on 00:10:06.980 --> 00:10:10.559 a precision diagnosis and once they have that 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:14.950 they now know very precisely what to stop doing 00:10:14.950 --> 00:10:19.190 so they don't mimic the causation mechanism and 00:10:19.190 --> 00:10:23.269 then we guide them on what they need to build 00:10:23.269 --> 00:10:26.490 to create a foundation for pain -free activity 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:31.509 and whether that is Working on the fire ground 00:10:31.509 --> 00:10:35.990 as a firefighter or it's to get the gold at the 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:40.740 next Olympics we define what the demands of that 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:44.919 task will be we see if their body currently has 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.960 the capacity to meet those demands if they don't 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.720 we then create the training program and select 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.340 the most appropriate training tools to get them 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:58.100 there in the most efficient way brilliant all 00:10:58.100 --> 00:10:59.460 right well i want to start at the very beginning 00:10:59.460 --> 00:11:03.090 so You look at a lot of, I guess you'd say, less 00:11:03.090 --> 00:11:05.769 developed countries around the world, and it 00:11:05.769 --> 00:11:10.190 appears that they have very well -functioning 00:11:10.190 --> 00:11:14.049 bodies through to late, late elderly time. You 00:11:14.049 --> 00:11:16.450 see, obviously, pictures of elderly women in 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:18.889 Southeast Asia in paddy fields still working, 00:11:18.990 --> 00:11:21.870 pulling out the rice, and African ladies carrying 00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:25.669 water, and obviously these very generic National 00:11:25.669 --> 00:11:30.049 Geographic images. But then you see us. And I 00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:32.169 know from the path that I've delved down, things 00:11:32.169 --> 00:11:34.789 like sitting have really created a lot of problems. 00:11:34.850 --> 00:11:37.509 So from you, pretty much one of the top people 00:11:37.509 --> 00:11:40.870 on spine, what is it that Western culture is 00:11:40.870 --> 00:11:43.750 doing to the human body that's creating some 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:49.990 of these issues that you're seeing? Well, I don't 00:11:49.990 --> 00:11:53.690 know if I necessarily agree that Asians and Africans 00:11:53.690 --> 00:11:58.909 and European Caucasians and whatnot have all 00:11:58.909 --> 00:12:03.389 that a differential rate in some of the back 00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:07.049 issues. There are certainly different back issues 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:09.990 and different exposures. But as I've traveled 00:12:09.990 --> 00:12:16.090 to these areas. I'm still dealing with back pain. 00:12:16.909 --> 00:12:20.929 However, having said that, from an anthropological 00:12:20.929 --> 00:12:23.370 point of view, which is not my area of expertise 00:12:23.370 --> 00:12:32.269 at all, of course, the new a relatively new exposure 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:35.029 to computers and cell phones and the amount of 00:12:35.029 --> 00:12:39.049 time that people spend sitting does create a 00:12:39.049 --> 00:12:43.090 very specific stress for the back. Then if we 00:12:43.090 --> 00:12:48.029 look at the typical American who walks very little, 00:12:48.129 --> 00:12:52.450 walking is absolutely essential for spine health 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:57.440 and many health systems in the body. I mean, 00:12:57.460 --> 00:13:01.779 it's the best way to to train the quadratus lumborum, 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.059 the obliques, et cetera, in a way that that pretty 00:13:05.059 --> 00:13:08.200 much guarantees spine stability and hip mobility 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:11.879 and all the rest of it. So it's that balance 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:19.159 that is is is being lost. And then they go to 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:22.679 the gym. to try and make up for it. Whereas I 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.340 don't think that pattern of sitting for eight 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:28.080 hours and then going for a very intense workout 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.940 for one hour at the gym would be quite as typical, 00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:35.519 say, in other areas of the world. But having 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.320 said that as well, the anatomy is quite different. 00:13:41.419 --> 00:13:46.399 I mean, I don't know how specific we want to 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:49.759 get down into this, but I should probably conclude 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:54.240 with this because this is probably the point 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.419 that will be most interesting to your listeners. 00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:01.980 In my world, all back injuries and all back pain 00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:07.679 has a very precise cause. the north american 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:12.480 medical system there is no provision for a person 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.639 to get a precise diagnosis of their back pain 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:17.960 they go to the medic they might get 10 or 15 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:21.700 minutes and they kind of guess as to what's causing 00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:25.559 the pain when we assess a patient we spend uh 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:29.360 usually around three hours to go through the 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:33.480 full pathways to their pain we start out with 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:38.620 an interview and uh i just let them talk and 00:14:38.620 --> 00:14:43.639 never before has anyone ever listened to what 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.220 their passions are what the physical exposures 00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:51.940 are why they have failed previous attempts at 00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:56.029 back rehab because no one ask them to describe 00:14:56.029 --> 00:14:58.409 what the impediments were. And I'll give you 00:14:58.409 --> 00:15:02.250 an example. Say you have a person who's been 00:15:02.250 --> 00:15:04.950 told, well, you should go out and walk three 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:08.370 times a day. But then the person reveals in that 00:15:08.370 --> 00:15:11.350 conversation, she'll say, well, I don't want 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:13.450 to walk out in my neighborhood when it's dark. 00:15:13.549 --> 00:15:16.149 I don't feel safe. So what do you think the compliance 00:15:16.149 --> 00:15:19.509 would be to that healthful practice? It's going 00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:24.460 to be zero. So until you just listen. and find 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:28.440 out why the person has failed, you're going to 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.580 fail again as well. So that's the beginning of 00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:39.629 it. And then pain pathways form. uh clusters 00:15:39.629 --> 00:15:43.330 and patterns and once a pattern starts emerging 00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:46.110 then we will ask very specific questions you 00:15:46.110 --> 00:15:49.649 know if they uh describe a pattern of back attacks 00:15:49.649 --> 00:15:52.610 where they might say well i sneezed and and i 00:15:52.610 --> 00:15:54.830 threw my back out or i picked up a pencil and 00:15:54.830 --> 00:15:56.610 threw my back out or i reached and flushed the 00:15:56.610 --> 00:15:58.570 toilet and it felt like someone threw a knife 00:15:58.570 --> 00:16:01.279 in my back I would then say to them, when you 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:03.720 roll over in bed, have you ever had a sharp pain? 00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:07.279 And if they said yes, this is the sure sign of 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.980 spine instability. So there's micro -movements 00:16:09.980 --> 00:16:14.340 occurring at a spinal joint that's trapping a 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:20.759 nerve, and they may even be locked up for four 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.600 or five days, and then it slowly dissipates over 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:25.259 the next couple of weeks, and then they're fine 00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:28.659 again, living in fear, not knowing when the next 00:16:29.309 --> 00:16:32.509 acute attack will occur. Well, that scenario 00:16:32.509 --> 00:16:35.629 I've just described has a very specific cause 00:16:35.629 --> 00:16:39.950 and it is really quite simple to give them a 00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:42.230 movement strategy that completely eliminates 00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:46.789 the mechanistic cause. So now all of a sudden 00:16:46.789 --> 00:16:49.710 you show them that they are completely empowered. 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.480 all of the movement fear goes away. So if we're 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.019 talking of a firefighter now, they can pull on 00:16:56.019 --> 00:16:58.840 their boots, bend down, pick up a hose, advance 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:04.880 a loaded fire hose into the... the battle, so 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.460 to speak, and they just know how to move and 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:16.799 zero risk of an occurrence. But the next person 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:20.180 comes in and tells much more of a slow onset, 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:26.619 slow recovery, episodic kind of pain. So I guess 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:28.500 in a nutshell, people have been told they have 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:32.539 chronic back pain. Almost always when you hone 00:17:32.539 --> 00:17:34.980 in on the mechanism, it's not chronic back pain 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:38.900 at all. It is many acute attacks throughout the 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:42.720 day because of the way that they're moving that's 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.220 causing stress concentrations on the pain mechanism. 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.000 They just keep picking the scab. But once they're 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.680 shown how to wind down the mechanism, those tissues 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:59.240 desensitize, become less painful, we know what 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.470 the healing and adaptation should now be because 00:18:03.470 --> 00:18:06.190 we've defined that so we can give them proper 00:18:06.190 --> 00:18:12.369 training and rest ratios and then we rebuild 00:18:12.369 --> 00:18:16.490 the foundation that that individual needs. to 00:18:16.490 --> 00:18:20.609 move pain -free, whether it's on the fire ground, 00:18:20.690 --> 00:18:23.990 in the police force, playing in the NFL, or they 00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:26.569 just want to be a stay -at -home mom. They've 00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:31.170 got a new kid and their biggest challenge is 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:33.430 to, it's two o 'clock in the morning and the 00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:36.150 baby needs feeding. How do you pick that child 00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:40.509 out of the crib in a way that is bulletproof 00:18:40.509 --> 00:18:44.269 for the back? So anyway, that's it in a nutshell. 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.700 Right. I mean, you walk around England, you walk 00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.059 around America. These are two places I'm at most 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.500 of the time recently. And you see, and this is 00:18:53.500 --> 00:18:57.839 from, again, a very, very... um what's the right 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.259 word novice set of eyes with with mine but you 00:19:00.259 --> 00:19:03.220 see the the feet splayed out you know the the 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:06.839 the pronation of the feet you see the the anterior 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.799 pelvic tilt the shoulders pull forward and and 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:12.339 this human spine that we're getting now it seems 00:19:12.339 --> 00:19:15.079 you see a lot in our fellow men and women um 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:18.240 just seems like a recipe for disaster so the 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.559 the da vinci's man the way the way he holds himself 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.720 in that that painting is Is that the goal to 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.900 try and maintain that? I mean, these things that 00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:30.380 I'm seeing with my eyes, are they the same kind 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:32.180 of diagnostic tools you're looking at when it 00:19:32.180 --> 00:19:35.779 comes to posture? Well, yes, it is. Once you 00:19:35.779 --> 00:19:40.269 get enough... uh foundational knowledge your 00:19:40.269 --> 00:19:42.950 eye is the best pattern recognizer that there 00:19:42.950 --> 00:19:45.930 is it's better than any instrument but you know 00:19:45.930 --> 00:19:49.650 when i go back to the university now and in in 00:19:49.650 --> 00:19:53.250 in my last years when i was uh at the university 00:19:53.250 --> 00:19:59.450 i i i hate to use this word but it was almost 00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:03.230 disgusting viscerally disgusting to me to watch 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:09.039 The majority of young people almost crippled 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:14.640 walking around campus how they would. It's OK 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:19.900 now to be disrespectful of your body, have incredibly 00:20:19.900 --> 00:20:25.279 poor posture. And I think in some of the cultures 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.380 that you were describing earlier, it's not acceptable. 00:20:29.109 --> 00:20:32.329 to be disrespectful for your body to the point 00:20:32.329 --> 00:20:35.230 where it's disabled through very poor fitness 00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:39.869 very poor posture but it's it's now become acceptable 00:20:39.869 --> 00:20:42.809 so that's that's one thing the amount of time 00:20:42.809 --> 00:20:45.589 that people sit and then when they have a break 00:20:45.589 --> 00:20:49.670 they get on their phone this is not conducive 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:54.299 to uh good health even the walking style as as 00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:57.500 you described with the feet out when you measure 00:20:57.500 --> 00:21:00.880 an obese person walking they don't have a spring 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.119 in their knees because their knees cannot tolerate 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.839 the weight so they if you watch it's and it's 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.539 a walk that people use when they walk in sandals 00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:14.180 or flip -flops for example in florida They throw 00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:17.279 their feet forward and lock their knee hard into 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.480 extension. And I see young people walking this 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.940 way now, which we never used to see before. And 00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:28.420 it is an obese gait pattern that they're copying 00:21:28.420 --> 00:21:32.140 almost from one another, but it's the most unathletic. 00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:37.920 joint conserving method. So I don't know if I'm 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:42.279 a bit off topic there or not, but... No, that 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:45.559 was great. I'm seeing so many common denominators. 00:21:45.619 --> 00:21:47.579 The more of these episodes I do, the more of 00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:51.619 these lines intersect. And I just had an interview 00:21:51.619 --> 00:21:55.420 with Dr. Gregory Smith who had a couple of documentaries 00:21:55.420 --> 00:21:59.359 about the opiate epidemics. He said exactly the 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.099 same thing. He's like, when I sit down with my 00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:03.880 patients, I talk to them for, I believe it was 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:05.759 about three hours as well as initial consultation. 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.059 And again, to delve into their pattern and what's 00:22:08.059 --> 00:22:11.059 the history of their addiction. And that seems 00:22:11.059 --> 00:22:12.700 to be something that we're really lacking in 00:22:12.700 --> 00:22:15.599 modern day medicine is they're having to bang 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.839 through these patients to get whatever insurance 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.740 money they're trying to get. And the people that 00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:22.539 are losing are the men and women that are walking 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:27.609 through those doors. In many ways, you know, 00:22:27.630 --> 00:22:31.289 I think the medics who spend 10 minutes with 00:22:31.289 --> 00:22:33.470 a person with back pain and then they give them 00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:37.470 Demerol or a narcotic for their back pain when 00:22:37.470 --> 00:22:40.809 in fact their back pain was so simple to address 00:22:40.809 --> 00:22:44.630 the cause. But they are untrained and didn't 00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:48.130 know how to assess the cause and they didn't 00:22:48.130 --> 00:22:52.890 have the time that it took to do a thorough proper. 00:22:54.450 --> 00:22:57.490 assessment. If you went to the orthopod 30 years 00:22:57.490 --> 00:23:01.009 ago, you would get a good assessment. Now you 00:23:01.009 --> 00:23:05.089 will get a chances are either you're passed off 00:23:05.089 --> 00:23:08.109 and told, oh, go do Pilates because you've got 00:23:08.109 --> 00:23:10.750 back pain. Well, the Pilates is just as much 00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:12.890 a chance to hurt their back as it does to help 00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:15.809 their back. You know, it depends on what the 00:23:15.809 --> 00:23:20.539 mechanism is. But the number of back patients 00:23:20.539 --> 00:23:28.599 who are referred to me, addicted. It's a real 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:32.799 indictment of what's going on in medical practice 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:35.940 now. Right. So when these men and women come 00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:38.900 to you, you've done the diagnosis, you've figured 00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:43.359 out a specific movement pattern or weakness that's 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:48.299 creating this. does the exercise recommendations 00:23:48.299 --> 00:23:50.339 look like? And I understand everyone's completely 00:23:50.339 --> 00:23:52.920 different, but what are some of the main exercises 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.119 that you do use with a lot of your patients? 00:23:56.170 --> 00:24:00.069 Well, I have to go back one level now that that's 00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:02.309 a bit of a myth that they're going to exercise 00:24:02.309 --> 00:24:04.970 their way out of back pain. The highest priority 00:24:04.970 --> 00:24:11.009 is to get rid of the cause. So once we finish 00:24:11.009 --> 00:24:14.849 the interview stage, we then go into the clinic 00:24:14.849 --> 00:24:18.410 and we do provocative testing. We provoke their 00:24:18.410 --> 00:24:22.230 back pain. So we know. exactly what makes it 00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:25.549 better and what makes it worse so we identify 00:24:25.549 --> 00:24:29.829 the specific motions the postures the loads that 00:24:29.829 --> 00:24:32.829 increase or decrease their back pain and most 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:35.710 people unless they have something like say a 00:24:35.710 --> 00:24:38.690 sinister cancerous tumor that's causing their 00:24:38.690 --> 00:24:42.619 back pain which is very rare But if it's mechanical 00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:46.720 back pain, you will change it by changing their 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.440 posture and the load and that kind of thing. 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:52.480 So once we've defined that, we then show them, 00:24:52.579 --> 00:24:55.019 you know, every time you get out of the chair, 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.220 you bend forward, you have a disc bulge. We've 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:00.880 just proven that's causing your back pain. It's 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:02.779 trapping a nerve root. And that's why your big 00:25:02.779 --> 00:25:05.359 toe is falling asleep. You know, that's just 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:09.410 an example. Once we show them. Before you get 00:25:09.410 --> 00:25:11.369 out of a chair, we want you to sniff a little 00:25:11.369 --> 00:25:15.269 air, sit tall in the seat, bend forward through 00:25:15.269 --> 00:25:18.690 your hips, and then transfer the weight onto 00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:20.890 your feet. You spread your knees and pull your 00:25:20.890 --> 00:25:22.690 feet underneath you. Basically, I'm teaching 00:25:22.690 --> 00:25:26.519 mechanics of weightlifting 101. Then you pull 00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.160 the hips through and stand up using a hip hinge. 00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:32.140 Now we've just completely eliminated the pain 00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:34.720 trigger. And they'll say, wow, that didn't hurt. 00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:38.099 No one has ever shown me that before. Good. Now 00:25:38.099 --> 00:25:39.759 we're going to show you how to bend over and 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.819 brush your teeth. Get on and off the toilet, 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:43.960 in and out of your car. How do you tie your shoes? 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:48.880 And these are all real life. Now, this is the 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:52.980 phase that we call spine hygiene. If it's a firefighter, 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:56.680 we then, when I was at the university, we had 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:01.180 a clinic paid for by the firefighters. It had 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:05.259 ladders. It had a mock -up of an elevator where 00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:08.799 you had to pike open the door. It had a instrumented 00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.099 anvil that you had to take a sledgehammer and 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:13.779 hit so many joules of energy on the anvil to 00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:17.809 simulate breaching a door. We had a loaded fire 00:26:17.809 --> 00:26:20.769 hose advance, which was a heavy shipping rope 00:26:20.769 --> 00:26:23.710 with resistance on the end. We had a body drag. 00:26:24.069 --> 00:26:28.529 We had a obstacle course that would be filled 00:26:28.529 --> 00:26:32.470 up with vapor to simulate smoke. The guys would 00:26:32.470 --> 00:26:34.890 put on full bunker gear, go in and pull out to 00:26:34.890 --> 00:26:38.849 crash test dummies. So, you know, all of these 00:26:38.849 --> 00:26:41.529 things, they were taught to move in a way that 00:26:41.529 --> 00:26:46.940 didn't trigger their specific back pain mechanism. 00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:52.640 So this is the first stage of winding down back 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.740 pain. You must desensitize the painful tissues 00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:59.720 first. And if the tissues have damage, we have 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.319 to create a schedule and a regimen for the tissues 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:08.299 to heal. Now, once we've created a body that 00:27:08.299 --> 00:27:12.160 is tolerant, we now build strategic stability 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:19.059 and mobility. uh is a flexible rod It's flexible. 00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:23.240 It allows you to dance and move and enjoy life. 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.099 But when you're pulling a body out of a car wreck, 00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:28.980 you better stiffen that flexible rod. Otherwise, 00:27:29.140 --> 00:27:31.720 you will create a stress concentration and it 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:36.799 will fail. It's a structure. So the whole spine 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:41.799 hygiene and work technique is critical. But then 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:46.059 teaching them strategic stability of their back. 00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:48.859 When is it? okay to move their back around, but 00:27:48.859 --> 00:27:52.460 when must you stiffen it through coordinated 00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:56.380 activation of the abdominal wall, quadratus lumborum, 00:27:56.500 --> 00:28:00.859 latissimus dorsi, et cetera. And then they may 00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:03.460 or may not, it depends on the person, need strategic 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:08.279 mobility. They might need mobility at the hips 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:10.880 or the thoracic spine or the shoulder joints. 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:19.000 Then we move on to transferring this ability 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:23.000 and your body is an articulated linkage. It follows 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:26.920 very specific laws and rules. We then get into 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.720 patterns of pushing, pulling, lifting, carrying, 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:35.900 all things that a physical occupational athlete 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:42.640 like a firefighter or a military person requires. 00:28:44.360 --> 00:28:46.680 And there you go. Now, if you're going to the 00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.859 Olympics, then the final stage, of course, is 00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:57.420 to ramp up and create loading that will optimize 00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:00.619 the adaptations in their bodies so that they're 00:29:00.619 --> 00:29:05.420 ready to compete in whatever it is. So it is 00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:07.779 a myth, though, back exercise is going to fix 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:10.220 my back. First of all, get rid of the cause. 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:13.920 Then strategically build the athleticism with 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:18.839 exercise. Right. And the area you talked about 00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:21.400 in your facility that had all the fire -specific 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:23.960 tasks, that's something that's definitely missing 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:29.519 in all the instances I've had. And kudos to the 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:31.220 places I've been to. They've done their best. 00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:34.039 But I mean, I would say certainly in the Florida 00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:36.940 area, a majority of the... Patients in the PT 00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:40.339 clinics that I go to are elderly, so they're 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:45.059 not used to a 30 -something muscular tactical 00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:47.019 athlete walking in and saying, I need you to 00:29:47.019 --> 00:29:48.799 get me strong enough to be able to drag a 200 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.319 -pound person out of a building. So that's fantastic 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:57.740 that you had that array of tools to use to get 00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:00.940 your men and women back to duty. Well, this is 00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:05.029 the... maybe i'm offending everybody in this 00:30:05.029 --> 00:30:09.130 podcast but physical therapists are not taught 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:13.599 athletes in their training. They sometimes are 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:15.900 quite happy to get a person to stand up off the 00:30:15.900 --> 00:30:20.420 toilet and that's the end of it. To work with 00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:24.579 a martial artist or an NFL football player or 00:30:24.579 --> 00:30:28.359 a police officer or a firefighter, you've got 00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:31.440 to know the job. And if you don't know the job, 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.720 you shouldn't be trying to rebuild their body 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:38.240 to meet those specific demands. So it takes a 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.019 very special clinician who has knowledge. One 00:30:42.019 --> 00:30:46.220 of the joys of my life. I mean, I'm a little 00:30:46.220 --> 00:30:50.480 bit older now, but when I have, say, an athlete 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:54.900 from the UFC, which is the MMA combat league, 00:30:55.059 --> 00:30:57.599 I love to have a role in the cage with them. 00:30:57.660 --> 00:31:01.720 I love to feel their athleticism, the demands 00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:04.680 and their techniques. So I understand what it 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.920 is that they need to do. Um, so, I mean, we always 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:10.799 joke, I say, okay, I'm going to show you something 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:12.519 about your back pain, but you're going to show 00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:15.000 me something about your athleticism. And, and 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.519 every good worker has a skillset and you can 00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:24.480 learn so much. I remember, uh, uh, I was asked 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:28.420 to do a consult with, uh, a hydro utility and 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:31.259 these are lads that go out and climb hydro poles. 00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.140 Uh, so the first thing I had to do was put on 00:31:34.140 --> 00:31:38.480 a pair of climbing spurs. and a utility built. 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:42.079 And I put something over my shoulder. I forget 00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:46.960 what it was and climb a 60 foot pole. And boy, 00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:50.799 that teaches you what the demands are of this, 00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:55.259 that particular job. But, you know, we've done 00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:58.859 the same thing with military, the police and 00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:01.380 the firefighting communities. Yeah, that's funny 00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:04.750 you say that. um i had a guy that i trained in 00:32:04.750 --> 00:32:08.730 my gym saying he had foot pain recently um and 00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:10.529 i think was it foot pain maybe it was back pain 00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:12.150 but he was talking about doing a lot of climbing 00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:14.250 he works for the the power company utility company 00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:15.910 and they've been doing all the utility poles 00:32:15.910 --> 00:32:18.490 and in their climbing shoes the way they climb 00:32:18.490 --> 00:32:20.529 those little spikes on either side of the pole 00:32:20.529 --> 00:32:23.319 they have to put it on the arch of their foot. 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:25.000 They can't go on the ball of their foot, how 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:27.880 you'd want to climb. And he said he could just 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.000 feel there's no comfortable way of doing it. 00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:31.640 And then he could feel that movement pattern 00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:35.380 creating, you know, like a, not so much an injury, 00:32:35.500 --> 00:32:37.680 but an aches and pains within the rest of his 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:40.180 body just from changing that from the normal 00:32:40.180 --> 00:32:45.079 climb. Right. I know exactly what he's talking 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:48.099 about. Yeah. Well, I want to kind of go back 00:32:48.099 --> 00:32:49.960 to one thing that you said. So this is something 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.190 that I have, been enlightened to after i hurt 00:32:53.190 --> 00:32:56.309 my back and then i preach now as well the hip 00:32:56.309 --> 00:32:58.650 hinge now that's something that you would think 00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:01.769 would be natural but as a as a fireman teaching 00:33:01.769 --> 00:33:04.349 my fellow uh you know peers on the fitness side 00:33:04.349 --> 00:33:06.430 and then as a coach in the gym where i coach 00:33:06.430 --> 00:33:10.529 it's incredible how the hinge has been lost and 00:33:10.529 --> 00:33:12.509 all those strong muscles that were designed to 00:33:12.509 --> 00:33:14.690 use in the back you know the posterior chain 00:33:14.690 --> 00:33:17.089 to do these lifts and the ability to keep the 00:33:17.089 --> 00:33:21.259 the scapula back as well so challenging for people 00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:23.359 is that something that you see where you are 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:28.480 as well absolutely yeah and then worse yet they 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.859 then go to a gym with a trainer and the trainer 00:33:31.859 --> 00:33:35.579 starts teaching them dead lifting not a clue 00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:41.000 on how to strategically uh stiffen the body to 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:46.079 perform the deadlift they don't do an assessment 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.500 of the person's hips so they know the starting 00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:52.680 height they don't teach them how to grip the 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.799 bar with a double overhook, not an over and an 00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:58.640 underhook with the hands, but a double overhook 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.099 and then bend the bar, locking it down with latissimus 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:06.099 dorsi, stiffen the core, unleash the hips and 00:34:06.099 --> 00:34:10.840 pull the hips through to perform the deadlift. 00:34:11.019 --> 00:34:14.119 And it's quite a technical lift and they end 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:19.119 up far too many good men and women are being. 00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.500 damaged, and I use that word carefully chosen, 00:34:23.659 --> 00:34:28.340 being damaged by trainers telling them they should 00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:31.320 be deadlifting their body weight. And yet they 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:36.780 hadn't been experienced enough themselves to 00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:40.219 know what the technique was to perform a deadlift. 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:45.079 And I will say that probably over half of the 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:49.519 people I see as back patients have been either 00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:53.400 created or made worse by trainers not knowing 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:56.980 their craft. Yeah, I see that myself as well. 00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:59.460 And especially if you get, I train in a CrossFit 00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:03.920 gym and... You get these workouts, especially 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:05.760 in the open that they have every year, and it 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:07.579 will be deadlifts and it will be higher reps. 00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.639 And you just hear it. You hear everyone's how 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.139 much pain they're in the next day, and especially 00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:14.699 in the wrong place. They're feeling it in their 00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:17.320 lower back. And please correct me if I'm wrong, 00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:19.260 but you should be feeling a deadlift really in 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:21.340 your glutes. That's the thing they should be 00:35:21.340 --> 00:35:24.400 lifting. You should be feeling it in your whole 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:29.460 body if it's done correctly. But really, you 00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:32.610 shouldn't be feeling it at all. a training session 00:35:32.610 --> 00:35:36.329 should be giving you more back than it is taking 00:35:36.329 --> 00:35:40.130 away. And there's another issue. When someone 00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:42.889 says they're trashed or really sore after a training 00:35:42.889 --> 00:35:47.750 session, whoever was guiding them doesn't understand 00:35:47.750 --> 00:35:54.199 foundational biology. Every system... in biology 00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:57.860 has what we call a tipping point so just let's 00:35:57.860 --> 00:36:01.179 i'll start the example with a vitamin if if you 00:36:01.179 --> 00:36:04.000 took vitamin d for example and you didn't have 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.760 enough you'd be ill you'd be vitamin d deficient 00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.260 but if you have too much it now becomes a poison 00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:13.059 and you'll be sick so there was a tipping point 00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:17.239 there somewhere exercise is exactly the same 00:36:17.239 --> 00:36:22.039 so let's use dead lifting now as the variable 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:26.340 in the example if you don't do enough you're 00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:29.599 not going to get a biological adaptation but 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:34.079 if you cross the tipping point um there's two 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:39.360 kinds of patterns of back injury with deadlifting 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.900 the first pattern is they flex their spine their 00:36:42.900 --> 00:36:45.039 hips are too tight they're pulling from too low 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:50.739 a level and they might use what is popularly 00:36:50.739 --> 00:36:53.199 known as butt wink their spine bends and some 00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.099 trainers say well oh butt wink is okay under 00:36:56.099 --> 00:37:00.219 heavy load it is not it will slowly delaminate 00:37:00.219 --> 00:37:03.820 the collagen fibers of the discs They are not 00:37:03.820 --> 00:37:05.900 ball and socket joints. Those are your hips. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:10.679 The discs are fibers of collagen held together 00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.519 with a ground substance. They follow the laws 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:17.460 of a fabric. And if you work the fibers back 00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:19.820 and forth under stress strain reversals in a 00:37:19.820 --> 00:37:22.619 fabric, you will get a delamination and eventually 00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:25.300 a tear in the fabric. And this is exactly the 00:37:25.300 --> 00:37:28.539 mechanism of what people will do to their discs 00:37:28.539 --> 00:37:30.940 because they're... treating them like the ball 00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:35.099 and socket joint rather than their hip. Or another 00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:40.639 pattern is the deadlift is too heavy in magnitude, 00:37:40.699 --> 00:37:44.659 and they create microfracturing of the end plates. 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.980 Now the fibers pull out of their connection to 00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:53.440 the vertebra because the scaffolding has now 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:56.380 been broken, and they don't feel this, by the 00:37:56.380 --> 00:37:59.199 way. There's no pain at this point. And now the 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.619 fibers get loose because their ends are no longer 00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:06.380 fully connected. And then with more deadlifts 00:38:06.380 --> 00:38:09.360 and worse form because they're doing 10 reps 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.519 to fatigue, they then pressurize the nucleus. 00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:16.739 And with each deadlift, the nucleus works its 00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:19.599 way a little bit further through the delaminated 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.380 collagen and they end up with a disc bulge again. 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:29.559 Never do deadlifts to fatigue. Never. Do a single 00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:33.199 with perfect form. Then put the weight down and 00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:36.159 regather your perfect form. Then do the next 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:38.940 rep. If you want to go to the Olympics, do you 00:38:38.940 --> 00:38:41.760 think Olympians are doing 10 Olympic lifts in 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:45.039 a row? They never would. I know it's a CrossFit 00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:48.119 competition, but it's not how you would get to 00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:50.739 the Olympics as an Olympic lifter. What you're 00:38:50.739 --> 00:38:53.980 doing... is with the perfect lift is establishing 00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:58.820 what we call an engram an engram is the representation 00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:02.739 of the movement in the brain and with every repetition 00:39:02.739 --> 00:39:08.159 your brain records that as as muscle memory you 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:12.019 want to record a perfect engram but when you 00:39:12.019 --> 00:39:15.539 do 10 lifts you now pollute the engram with a 00:39:15.539 --> 00:39:18.300 fatigued pattern Your brain doesn't know what 00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:22.840 to do to start lifting that heart attack victim 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:25.159 out of the bathtub, which might be a common lift 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.159 for a firefighter, for example, or any emergency 00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:33.360 personnel. You want perfect engrams and train 00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.039 them with singles of perfect lifts. Now, the 00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.699 lifts might be heavy. That's fine. But don't 00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:43.599 go to fatigue. And I can prove this, by the way. 00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:49.929 We won an award. Europe as as the top study three 00:39:49.929 --> 00:39:53.929 years ago in the world we took the Toronto ETF 00:39:53.929 --> 00:39:56.849 so that was the the SWAT team or the emergency 00:39:56.849 --> 00:40:01.469 task force there was 70 officers in the ETF we 00:40:01.469 --> 00:40:05.510 followed them for five years we had zero attrition 00:40:05.510 --> 00:40:10.190 so the same 70 officers started as finished we 00:40:10.190 --> 00:40:15.400 measured health variables and habits. And we 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:20.860 spent, I believe it was six hours assessing every 00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:26.170 single. Sorry, that was just another colleague 00:40:26.170 --> 00:40:29.289 coming through on Skype. No problem. Yeah, I 00:40:29.289 --> 00:40:31.869 can't prevent that. I'm sorry. But anyway, back 00:40:31.869 --> 00:40:36.190 to the police officer study. We spent six hours 00:40:36.190 --> 00:40:41.110 assessing their movement patterns and their strength, 00:40:41.230 --> 00:40:45.989 their mobility, their endurance, etc. Then we 00:40:45.989 --> 00:40:49.289 watched them for five years to see who got back 00:40:49.289 --> 00:40:52.869 pain to the point that they lost a day of work. 00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:57.739 Do you think the most fit? firefighters the ones 00:40:57.739 --> 00:41:00.760 who trained the hardest were resilient to back 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:04.159 injury or Those are the ones getting back injuries 00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.659 and you would assume the fit ones were the most 00:41:06.659 --> 00:41:11.219 resilient No, we saw exactly the opposite and 00:41:11.219 --> 00:41:14.719 then we went in and watched them train the ones 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:19.460 who did 10 Olympic lifts or 10 deadlifts were 00:41:19.460 --> 00:41:22.820 breaking their perfect form, getting into fatigue, 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.920 and those were the ones who were getting back 00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.460 injuries. So I'm not talking through my hat here. 00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:35.380 We've proven this several times. Train with perfect 00:41:35.380 --> 00:41:39.059 form. The next study we did with the Pensacola, 00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:42.539 Florida Fire Department. Once again, we started 00:41:42.539 --> 00:41:47.769 with 75 men. uh yes they were all men one group 00:41:47.769 --> 00:41:52.929 of 25 formed a control group the next 25 uh did 00:41:52.929 --> 00:41:57.429 fitness training for a period of time now it 00:41:57.429 --> 00:42:00.929 was very much the style of doing you know 10 00:42:00.929 --> 00:42:04.329 burpees which creates spine mobility then do 00:42:04.329 --> 00:42:06.829 10 olympic lifts which now you need precisely 00:42:06.829 --> 00:42:11.369 the opposite Mobility in your spine is very detrimental. 00:42:11.489 --> 00:42:14.489 So now they had to stiffen their spine and do 00:42:14.489 --> 00:42:16.829 10 reps. But of course, when you get tired, your 00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:21.449 spine breaks form. And then the third group were 00:42:21.449 --> 00:42:23.849 the what we called the movement matters group. 00:42:23.929 --> 00:42:28.969 We worked with very high level coaches and trainers 00:42:28.969 --> 00:42:31.590 from used to be called Athletes Performance. 00:42:31.769 --> 00:42:34.050 Now they're called Exos, which they've partnered 00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:37.599 with the Andrews Institute in Pensacola. Anyway, 00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:42.260 prior to the study, we measured all the firefighters 00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:47.880 doing their fire ground tasks. We measured injury 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.360 markers. So if their knee buckled inwards while 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.880 they were advancing a fire hose or they used 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.679 too much spine flexion under heavy load lifting 00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.219 a crash test dummy or something like that. These 00:43:00.219 --> 00:43:04.320 are all markers that we know increase the risk 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.989 of future injury. The ones who just trained, 00:43:08.050 --> 00:43:11.409 and I'll use the expression, well, I don't need 00:43:11.409 --> 00:43:14.469 to use that, but the ones who just did repeated 00:43:14.469 --> 00:43:17.510 lifting and, you know, the coach encourages them 00:43:17.510 --> 00:43:19.869 to keep doing more reps and that kind of thing. 00:43:19.929 --> 00:43:22.409 When they went back out onto the fire ground, 00:43:22.570 --> 00:43:25.889 they were moving with more injury markers. In 00:43:25.889 --> 00:43:29.070 other words, you've created an occupational athlete, 00:43:29.150 --> 00:43:32.190 a firefighter, who's now stronger and lifting 00:43:32.190 --> 00:43:36.739 more with worse form. The third group who had 00:43:36.739 --> 00:43:40.579 excellent coaching all the time, we never coached 00:43:40.579 --> 00:43:43.500 them on fire ground activities. We only coached 00:43:43.500 --> 00:43:45.980 them on how to do a proper hip hinge, a proper 00:43:45.980 --> 00:43:49.280 deadlift, a proper push pattern, a proper pull 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:54.199 pattern. How do you carry objects properly? They 00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:56.679 went back out onto the fire ground with much 00:43:56.679 --> 00:44:01.039 fewer. Injury markers they had a movement wisdom 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:06.119 now that produced resilience in their body I 00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:12.059 don't I can prove now that good coaching is Worth 00:44:12.059 --> 00:44:15.159 the money and those who just want to train and 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:17.659 get strong in the gym with repeated repetitions 00:44:17.659 --> 00:44:21.699 I hope they enjoy their pain because I can stand 00:44:21.699 --> 00:44:24.699 by that particular study. Yeah. Yeah, and then 00:44:24.699 --> 00:44:27.550 the thing is I think it would be foolish to even 00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:30.230 question that because that's the goal of anyone 00:44:30.230 --> 00:44:33.150 that goes to see a coach is that they're supposed 00:44:33.150 --> 00:44:35.210 to be the leader and they're supposed to be someone 00:44:35.210 --> 00:44:37.449 who will guide them into the correct movement 00:44:37.449 --> 00:44:39.630 pattern, whether it's a professional sport or 00:44:39.630 --> 00:44:42.369 whether it's a CrossFit environment or Olympic 00:44:42.369 --> 00:44:45.309 lifting or whatever it is. And I actually 100 00:44:45.309 --> 00:44:48.699 % align with you that and I'm kind of... laughed 00:44:48.699 --> 00:44:51.400 at sometimes in my gym because of my resistance 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:54.139 to the competitions and it's not the competitions 00:44:54.139 --> 00:44:56.880 themselves i've got some amazing athletes that 00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.539 are perfectly capable of doing very well in a 00:44:59.539 --> 00:45:03.320 competition very safely but the majority of the 00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:06.440 men and women that come to our gym aren't moving 00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:09.239 correctly just like you said so you know to them 00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:11.880 i'm like there are going to be no medals handed 00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:15.000 out at the end of this workout So you've got 00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.840 nothing to injure yourself for in the first place, 00:45:17.900 --> 00:45:21.239 even if that was a philosophy. So do every single 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.219 rep the way it's supposed to be done. And in 00:45:23.219 --> 00:45:25.219 your mind, tell yourself that if you don't do 00:45:25.219 --> 00:45:26.840 it right, imagine there will be someone giving 00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:28.619 you a no rep. So you wouldn't even be able to 00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:35.860 count that one anyway. Well, well said. We just 00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:37.480 paused for a moment and you were talking about 00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.739 people on the Internet discussing movement fear. 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:43.139 So would you mind elaborating on that for me? 00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:50.099 Well, there are many people on the Internet who 00:45:50.099 --> 00:45:55.860 I don't feel they've done appropriate scientific 00:45:55.860 --> 00:46:00.380 investigation. And I think they're very good 00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:03.670 at marketing. on the internet and they tell people 00:46:03.670 --> 00:46:08.329 that back pain is in their head or it doesn't 00:46:08.329 --> 00:46:10.869 matter how you move, just keep moving because 00:46:10.869 --> 00:46:14.230 you don't want to become what's called kinesiophobic 00:46:14.230 --> 00:46:17.929 or afraid of movement. When I get those kinds 00:46:17.929 --> 00:46:20.610 of patients, I find they are the most fearful 00:46:20.610 --> 00:46:24.710 of movement because they never know when a certain 00:46:24.710 --> 00:46:27.690 movement will end up feeling as though someone 00:46:27.690 --> 00:46:30.289 threw a knife in their back. But when they're 00:46:30.289 --> 00:46:35.869 shown, their precise mechanism of, uh, an episodic 00:46:35.869 --> 00:46:40.750 back pain, uh, and, and how to avoid it. They 00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:44.110 are suddenly so empowered and all of the movement, 00:46:44.170 --> 00:46:48.389 uh, fear goes away. I'll, I'll, I'll just pull 00:46:48.389 --> 00:46:51.190 out another, uh, example of, of another study 00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:55.030 that we, uh, we're, we're, we're given an award 00:46:55.030 --> 00:46:58.610 for. Um, and it's, it's, it's, you'll, you'll 00:46:58.610 --> 00:47:01.389 see why it's so interesting. This work could 00:47:01.389 --> 00:47:06.590 never have been done in the United States. If 00:47:06.590 --> 00:47:09.949 you're a frontline clinician, you will have had 00:47:09.949 --> 00:47:15.670 couples coming to you saying, we are now celibate 00:47:15.670 --> 00:47:20.190 because six months ago when we had sex, we injured 00:47:20.190 --> 00:47:23.429 our backs quite badly. And we're so fearful now 00:47:23.429 --> 00:47:27.530 that it's not worth it. And the clinicians have 00:47:27.530 --> 00:47:33.760 zero. references to guide them on what to tell 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:38.440 the patients. So this is a real problem. And 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:43.239 what we did was with that motivation to provide 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:48.219 clinicians with recommendations, we then studied 00:47:48.219 --> 00:47:53.000 couples having sex. We were measuring spine load, 00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:58.849 hip load. muscle activation levels etc uh and 00:47:58.849 --> 00:48:01.710 as i said this this was not possible to conduct 00:48:01.710 --> 00:48:05.909 in the u .s they they they just it would never 00:48:05.909 --> 00:48:09.469 have been allowed but uh you can imagine the 00:48:09.469 --> 00:48:12.409 ethics concerns of the university and we worked 00:48:12.409 --> 00:48:15.769 through it for for two years the one of my graduate 00:48:15.769 --> 00:48:19.550 students natalie sudorkowitz took this on as 00:48:19.550 --> 00:48:25.809 her graduate work But anyway, we were able to 00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:30.010 create an atlas and provide that to the medical 00:48:30.010 --> 00:48:33.050 community. So now for the first time, they have 00:48:33.050 --> 00:48:38.789 guidelines on what to tell patients. So there's 00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:43.650 just yet another example of taking this fear 00:48:43.650 --> 00:48:47.360 that many. Clinicians will say, look, it's just 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.300 in your head. Don't worry about it. Well, just 00:48:49.300 --> 00:48:51.820 hold on. I've just given you an example now of 00:48:51.820 --> 00:48:55.219 massive behavior change because of fear. And 00:48:55.219 --> 00:48:58.599 the solution was not to ignore it. The solution 00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.960 was to study it and understand the mechanism 00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:08.179 so you can have a quantifiable and justifiable 00:49:08.179 --> 00:49:13.250 intervention to change people's lives. anyway 00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:16.989 it's how you get rid of movement fear and uh 00:49:16.989 --> 00:49:19.769 you know i'm not saying the psychological is 00:49:19.769 --> 00:49:23.590 unimportant i'm not saying that at all uh because 00:49:23.590 --> 00:49:29.829 uh very much uh how a person uh deals with uh 00:49:29.829 --> 00:49:36.090 chronic pain um the depression the uh upset and 00:49:36.090 --> 00:49:38.429 stress on their family you know look how many 00:49:38.429 --> 00:49:42.539 first responders are under family pressure now 00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:45.659 because they can't earn money it's an enormous 00:49:45.659 --> 00:49:48.900 psychological stress however you can go ahead 00:49:48.900 --> 00:49:52.699 and treat the psychological or and in conjunction 00:49:52.699 --> 00:49:57.929 with treat what is causing their back pain. And 00:49:57.929 --> 00:50:01.230 when the pain goes away, they start sleeping 00:50:01.230 --> 00:50:04.650 better. They become psychologically more resilient. 00:50:04.769 --> 00:50:08.869 And most often, and again, I'm not talking through 00:50:08.869 --> 00:50:11.710 my hat, we follow up with every patient we've 00:50:11.710 --> 00:50:14.409 ever seen. So we know the score and the behavior. 00:50:15.349 --> 00:50:19.269 The psychological issues diminish and disappear 00:50:19.269 --> 00:50:22.980 when the pain goes away. Yeah, again, that makes 00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:26.440 perfect sense. I wanted to kind of elaborate 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:28.739 on that and then also kind of tie in one of your 00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:30.559 books. So one of your books is called The Gift 00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:33.559 of Injury. When I hurt my back, which is about 00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:37.780 five years ago now, that phrase couldn't be more 00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:41.099 true because what it did is it gave me an opportunity 00:50:41.099 --> 00:50:43.900 to delve into, yes, my back was hurt, but obviously 00:50:43.900 --> 00:50:47.420 just like your speciality is finding out what 00:50:47.420 --> 00:50:50.019 the hell it was that... created the environment 00:50:50.019 --> 00:50:52.920 that I would even get hurt in the first place 00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:56.280 so the philosophy of an injury being an opportunity 00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:59.639 to not only heal but then come back even stronger 00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:01.760 which is my goal for every time I've been hurt 00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:05.699 Again, that seems to be a philosophy that's not 00:51:05.699 --> 00:51:09.579 very well understood in the workplace injury 00:51:09.579 --> 00:51:12.480 and then rehab arena. So when you have these 00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:14.880 men and women that come to you, is that the same 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.199 kind of thing that you're not just trying to 00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:19.460 get them out of pain, but also get them at least 00:51:19.460 --> 00:51:21.679 as strong, if not stronger, if there were weaknesses 00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:23.599 than they were before they even got hurt in the 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:30.400 first place? Well, absolutely. People want me 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.650 to come in and put together. injury prevention 00:51:33.650 --> 00:51:38.809 programs. Well, we talked about the state of 00:51:38.809 --> 00:51:41.869 our young students on campuses these days. Do 00:51:41.869 --> 00:51:45.050 you think if I came in and said, if you continue 00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:47.829 with this, you're going to have back pain. So 00:51:47.829 --> 00:51:50.289 I suggest you start changing your ways. What 00:51:50.289 --> 00:51:52.070 do you think the compliance and effect would 00:51:52.070 --> 00:51:55.170 be? I'm going to, because I've done this, it's 00:51:55.170 --> 00:51:59.429 going to be just about zero. So once a person 00:51:59.429 --> 00:52:02.449 has back pain, it's too bad. I wish we had a 00:52:02.449 --> 00:52:05.550 better way. all of a sudden they are now motivated 00:52:05.550 --> 00:52:08.110 to listen. They don't want to go back to that 00:52:08.110 --> 00:52:18.250 again. So this idea, it required the injury and 00:52:18.250 --> 00:52:21.710 the disability, unfortunately, to wake them up. 00:52:21.809 --> 00:52:25.050 Well, if you consider it in the right light, 00:52:25.110 --> 00:52:29.800 is the gift. And I've proven this many times 00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:33.880 as well, because I'll stand by our record of 00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:37.400 restoring careers in professional sport around 00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:43.980 the world, many Olympic programs. I've had Olympic 00:52:43.980 --> 00:52:48.179 lifters, weightlifters. I know one fella who 00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:52.739 has three Olympic records, and he will say, I 00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:55.079 never hurt my back until I had a disc herniation. 00:52:55.400 --> 00:53:00.579 Sorry, I never won a gold medal until I had a 00:53:00.579 --> 00:53:03.719 disc herniation because that was the gift that 00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:07.639 taught me how to train pristinely and perfectly 00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:11.300 understand the biological tipping points of my 00:53:11.300 --> 00:53:16.260 body and understand the adaptation schedules. 00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:19.420 I can give you an example on that one as well. 00:53:20.219 --> 00:53:22.940 You'll find a lot of young people who get into 00:53:22.940 --> 00:53:26.940 bodybuilding. And when they go to powerlifting 00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:29.480 a little bit later in their life, they get hurt. 00:53:29.619 --> 00:53:34.559 And here's the typical mechanism. As a bodybuilder, 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.699 typically they'll train three days a week because 00:53:37.699 --> 00:53:41.039 what you're doing is creating adaptation to the 00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:43.280 muscle and the muscle grows. But the muscle doesn't 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:46.239 grow when you train. It grows in the day off 00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:49.219 between the training. So the whole training purpose 00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:52.099 is to create the adaptation on the rest day. 00:53:52.670 --> 00:53:54.989 Well, now let's go to powerlifting. When you 00:53:54.989 --> 00:53:58.269 examine the training schedules of the grand old 00:53:58.269 --> 00:54:00.630 men and women of powerlifting, what you'll find 00:54:00.630 --> 00:54:02.730 is you'll consider them under -trained. They 00:54:02.730 --> 00:54:05.429 will have a very heavy squat day, for example, 00:54:05.429 --> 00:54:09.190 and then they take five days off. But five days 00:54:09.190 --> 00:54:13.570 is what's required for the bone. When we measure 00:54:13.570 --> 00:54:18.030 the bone after a heavy squat day, at the molecular 00:54:18.030 --> 00:54:21.510 level, there's microfracturing that goes on. 00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:27.420 And it takes five days for the bone to go through 00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:31.159 its piezoelectric adaptation response. It draws 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:35.800 in fresh calcium and magnesium ions. It scaffolds 00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:37.960 it into the bone and gets it to stick. That takes 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:41.739 five days. So if you start training very, very 00:54:41.739 --> 00:54:44.699 heavy loads like a powerlifter on a bodybuilding 00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:48.340 schedule of three days a week, the microfracturing 00:54:48.340 --> 00:54:51.449 actually accumulates. It doesn't have time. for 00:54:51.449 --> 00:54:53.349 that adaptation. And then they come in with an 00:54:53.349 --> 00:54:56.369 end plate fracture in their back and wonder why 00:54:56.369 --> 00:55:00.130 now they have a disc bulge. Again, it wasn't 00:55:00.130 --> 00:55:05.849 a mystery. It was a violation of that biological 00:55:05.849 --> 00:55:09.070 process that no one had ever explained to them 00:55:09.070 --> 00:55:14.610 before. So anyway, there's again, just another 00:55:14.610 --> 00:55:17.159 example. Yeah, well, I want to hit on something 00:55:17.159 --> 00:55:19.760 that I haven't talked about yet with you, which 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:23.380 is the recovery phase or sleep in first responders 00:55:23.380 --> 00:55:26.320 specifically, especially the firefighters where 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:29.260 they're constantly up for 24 hours. Or if they 00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:31.280 do the split schedule like the police do, then 00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:35.079 it's nights and days and nights and days. Do 00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:38.559 you see the effects of sleep deprivation, the 00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:42.599 inability to heal those micro tears more predominantly 00:55:42.599 --> 00:55:45.619 in first responders on those schedules? Yes, 00:55:45.820 --> 00:55:49.099 absolutely. There's no question. But I see it 00:55:49.099 --> 00:55:51.380 at two different levels. The first level is the 00:55:51.380 --> 00:55:53.820 one that you're talking about with the actual 00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:56.940 disruption of the tissue adaptation and repair 00:55:56.940 --> 00:56:01.920 process. But what is also a concern, and you're 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.800 probably well aware of the science on this, if 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:08.840 you've been deprived of sleep, your performance 00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:12.780 actually goes to the level of being impaired 00:56:12.780 --> 00:56:16.820 with alcohol. for example. So now your movement 00:56:16.820 --> 00:56:20.119 patterns are not as pristine as before. It's 00:56:20.119 --> 00:56:23.880 like doing 10 deadlifts. Your last deadlift is 00:56:23.880 --> 00:56:27.559 now so poor in form, the stress concentrations 00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:31.039 on particular vulnerable tissues exceed the tipping 00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:35.360 point and you get hurt. So this is also a problem 00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:40.280 as well. As you know, if you're operating sleep 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:42.900 deprived and you've got a very heavy lift to 00:56:42.900 --> 00:56:46.170 do, You know, let's go into an apartment building 00:56:46.170 --> 00:56:49.989 now. It's on fire. There's a person who needs 00:56:49.989 --> 00:56:54.889 assistance out of their bathtub. You carry them 00:56:54.889 --> 00:56:59.309 down the stairs. You can imagine how you are 00:56:59.309 --> 00:57:02.550 highly perturbed if you've been sleep deprived. 00:57:02.889 --> 00:57:05.230 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the other thing, you 00:57:05.230 --> 00:57:07.949 know, not to interrupt, James, but just again, 00:57:08.150 --> 00:57:12.739 that is a heroic Olympic effort. That's what 00:57:12.739 --> 00:57:16.739 you guys do on a regular basis. You perform heroic 00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:20.440 Olympic efforts. Now, if we were sending you 00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:23.219 to the Olympics to perform that, you would have 00:57:23.219 --> 00:57:26.739 been on a highly controlled diet, a highly controlled 00:57:26.739 --> 00:57:29.960 sleep schedule and rest schedule. Everything 00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:34.840 would be fit together to allow you to win without 00:57:34.840 --> 00:57:37.800 breaking your body in that heroic Olympic effort. 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:41.920 But that's not. what happens in the reality of 00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:45.619 your life yeah so you know of course it's a compromise 00:57:45.619 --> 00:57:48.039 brilliant well thank you for that because i think 00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:50.380 one of the ways that we are going to get our 00:57:50.380 --> 00:57:54.139 employers to understand that maybe the The hours 00:57:54.139 --> 00:57:56.340 work. I mean, a lot of firefighters work 56 hour 00:57:56.340 --> 00:57:58.159 weeks, you know, every third day they're awake. 00:57:58.900 --> 00:58:02.940 But if it's a financial concern that we can show 00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:05.260 that if these men and women are given more time 00:58:05.260 --> 00:58:08.719 to recover and rest after these shifts that lock 00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:11.260 down the road, the workplace injuries will probably 00:58:11.260 --> 00:58:15.099 be reduced as well. Well, you used the word probably. 00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:17.960 I can be more strong in that and I can prove 00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:25.639 reduction in injury rates. They had a very, very 00:58:25.639 --> 00:58:28.460 good health and safety officer who happened to 00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:32.619 be responsible for the physical training of the 00:58:32.619 --> 00:58:36.719 fire department. And he documented the costs 00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:40.760 of back injuries falling to one quarter once 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:44.619 they put together the programs and the principles 00:58:44.619 --> 00:58:49.179 that we've documented. First of all, in my clinical 00:58:49.179 --> 00:58:53.250 textbooks and then in my recent book for. a public 00:58:53.250 --> 00:58:56.670 back mechanic. Which department was that, if 00:58:56.670 --> 00:58:59.030 you don't mind me asking? Well, I don't know 00:58:59.030 --> 00:59:04.690 if I should reveal the name. I'm hedging on whether 00:59:04.690 --> 00:59:09.929 they want the publicity or not. I'd have to call 00:59:09.929 --> 00:59:14.429 them and ask. No problem. There might be a sensitivity 00:59:14.429 --> 00:59:16.989 there. But the fact that you said that there 00:59:16.989 --> 00:59:19.469 had been a study done, and I'm talking to Dr. 00:59:19.590 --> 00:59:22.440 Stuart McGill, who's saying this, then... That's 00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:25.980 really great to hear because I only have hypotheses. 00:59:26.239 --> 00:59:30.400 I'm sitting here in a house in Ocala. All right. 00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:31.880 Well, another thing you talked about as well, 00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:37.260 about the weight -bearing, breaking down micro 00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:39.619 tears, but then making bones stronger. I remember 00:59:39.619 --> 00:59:42.420 way, way back when I was doing exercise physiology 00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:46.789 in London University there. they talked about 00:59:46.789 --> 00:59:50.269 that was the most effective way of keeping bone 00:59:50.269 --> 00:59:53.710 density strong and avoiding osteoporosis. So 00:59:53.710 --> 00:59:57.329 A, is that still the case? And B, what kind of 00:59:57.329 --> 01:00:01.250 exercises do you recommend to maintain that bone 01:00:01.250 --> 01:00:03.369 density, especially obviously in our female firefighters 01:00:03.369 --> 01:00:06.889 post -menopause? Right. What a huge question. 01:00:07.030 --> 01:00:11.530 You may be aware that I was on the Osteoporosis 01:00:11.530 --> 01:00:14.449 Canada team that put together the recommended 01:00:14.449 --> 01:00:19.650 guidelines for stopping mineral loss. So I'm 01:00:19.650 --> 01:00:22.590 somewhat familiar with the science on this, although 01:00:22.590 --> 01:00:26.469 it isn't obviously my main area of expertise. 01:00:26.690 --> 01:00:30.670 But when I read the osteoporosis literature, 01:00:30.849 --> 01:00:36.630 it's almost always done. on women who lead quite 01:00:36.630 --> 01:00:42.510 a sedentary life. They don't investigate the 01:00:42.510 --> 01:00:46.469 best and strongest female power lifters in the 01:00:46.469 --> 01:00:51.670 world, for example. It's like my criticism of 01:00:51.670 --> 01:00:55.130 so much of what the medical profession knows 01:00:55.130 --> 01:00:58.789 about many medical conditions. They're measuring 01:00:58.789 --> 01:01:02.280 graduate students and sick people. There's not 01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:05.260 much difference sometimes. But when you measure 01:01:05.260 --> 01:01:07.900 the greatest athletes in the world, it's like 01:01:07.900 --> 01:01:11.639 driving an F1 race car. Now you suddenly learn 01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:16.119 what the automobile potential really is. And 01:01:16.119 --> 01:01:18.679 now can we bring that down to the mundane passenger 01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:24.219 car? So with that perspective said. The current 01:01:24.219 --> 01:01:28.719 feeling about bone density is that it's very 01:01:28.719 --> 01:01:35.039 important for young adolescent women to be quite 01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:39.579 active in an impact kind of way. Run, jump, play 01:01:39.579 --> 01:01:44.539 basketball. It's that impact that densifies the 01:01:44.539 --> 01:01:49.119 bone, which the sweet spot for densifying bone 01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:54.099 is at 15. Now. go to your local high school and 01:01:54.099 --> 01:01:57.300 look at all the mothers driving their kids to 01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:01.079 school right at the age when they had the biggest 01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:05.840 chance to create robust bone for the rest of 01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:09.619 their lives. So now we start to see something 01:02:09.619 --> 01:02:14.539 much more endemic and larger in scale. But now 01:02:14.539 --> 01:02:17.340 I'm going to get to the powerlifting story. So 01:02:17.340 --> 01:02:21.219 as I said, the current wisdom in the osteoporosis 01:02:21.219 --> 01:02:26.780 world is try and densify bone and then. For the 01:02:26.780 --> 01:02:29.340 rest of their lives, they can't really build 01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:34.059 bone. All they can do is stop the loss. And you 01:02:34.059 --> 01:02:39.380 stop the loss by walking with impact on the heels. 01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:43.119 In other words, have a stiffer soled shoe that 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:45.280 actually gives you a little bit of a heel strike 01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:48.260 rather than these softened heels that take away 01:02:48.260 --> 01:02:50.380 all heel strike. That's not natural and nor is 01:02:50.380 --> 01:02:57.059 it the best for the bones. But having said that, 01:02:57.099 --> 01:03:02.039 that world believes you can't build bone. But 01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:05.579 none of them, to my knowledge, have. understood, 01:03:05.579 --> 01:03:08.980 measured, and worked with powerlifters. When 01:03:08.980 --> 01:03:14.079 I work with world -class strength women, so these 01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:17.440 are heavy field athletes and things like shot 01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:22.019 put, hammer throw, and then powerlifters, they 01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:26.880 have heavy sclerotic bone, big welded plates, 01:03:26.980 --> 01:03:30.340 if you want to think of the bone actually grows. 01:03:31.210 --> 01:03:35.590 plates rather than thin trabeculae in the vertebra. 01:03:35.730 --> 01:03:41.250 We see these in women who have power lifted and 01:03:41.250 --> 01:03:44.190 done it cleverly for many years. Absolutely, 01:03:44.190 --> 01:03:49.230 you can build bone with the right stimulus through 01:03:49.230 --> 01:03:52.909 training and the proper adaptation of that five 01:03:52.909 --> 01:03:56.070 day schedule that I was telling you about. So 01:03:56.070 --> 01:04:01.329 there's a perspective on why I believe. the uh 01:04:01.329 --> 01:04:07.190 common uh street wisdom exists on osteoporosis 01:04:07.190 --> 01:04:11.590 and why i think uh it may not be entirely correct 01:04:11.590 --> 01:04:14.409 right and another area and and i'm not sure if 01:04:14.409 --> 01:04:16.190 this is something that you are you know well 01:04:16.190 --> 01:04:19.849 versed in but i know in some of the nutritional 01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:23.159 I've read and documentaries I've seen, they talk 01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:26.119 about the way I was raised was you drink milk 01:04:26.119 --> 01:04:29.699 for healthy bones and strong teeth. We consume 01:04:29.699 --> 01:04:31.639 more dairy, I think, than I think we're number 01:04:31.639 --> 01:04:33.500 two in the world. There was another country ahead 01:04:33.500 --> 01:04:36.460 of us, Hungary or something. But, you know, you 01:04:36.460 --> 01:04:38.940 would assume then if it was dietary that we would 01:04:38.940 --> 01:04:41.800 all have extremely strong bones. But then supposedly 01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:45.079 we have a very, very high incidence of osteoporosis 01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:47.059 compared to many countries. And again, I'm not 01:04:47.059 --> 01:04:51.930 100 % if that statistic is true. fundamentally 01:04:51.930 --> 01:04:54.869 I've been told that that milk actually creates 01:04:54.869 --> 01:04:58.210 an acidity in the body and then calcium is drawn 01:04:58.210 --> 01:05:01.550 from the bones to buffer that acidity through 01:05:01.550 --> 01:05:05.670 your studies is what I said correct is it completely 01:05:05.670 --> 01:05:10.969 incorrect I don't know that's that's not my world 01:05:10.969 --> 01:05:13.320 at all okay All right, then I will delve some 01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:16.019 more. But another thing you said about was the 01:05:16.019 --> 01:05:19.619 shoes. I have personally, it just, it feels good 01:05:19.619 --> 01:05:22.380 to me. I've started doing many of the things 01:05:22.380 --> 01:05:24.840 in the gym that aren't impact. So I'm not doing 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:27.320 like, you know, like a catch of a snatch or a 01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:31.519 clean, but slow squats and a lot of the other 01:05:31.519 --> 01:05:35.000 things I'll do barefoot now to try and create 01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:38.440 that connection with the floor again. Have you 01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:43.440 delved into the footwear side much? Yes, but 01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:49.079 that's not a bone -densifying rationale at all. 01:05:49.539 --> 01:05:55.750 To densify bone, you need impact. And just to 01:05:55.750 --> 01:05:59.550 give a scientific foundation for that and what 01:05:59.550 --> 01:06:03.389 causes bone growth and bone healing. Bone is 01:06:03.389 --> 01:06:06.849 a piezoelectric crystal. So if you think back 01:06:06.849 --> 01:06:09.070 to when you were a kid at camp or whatever at 01:06:09.070 --> 01:06:11.989 night, you would take two pieces of quartz and 01:06:11.989 --> 01:06:14.510 rub them together at night and you would see 01:06:14.510 --> 01:06:17.949 lightning flashes going through the quartz. So 01:06:17.949 --> 01:06:20.650 what that was demonstrating was when you stress 01:06:20.650 --> 01:06:24.050 a piezoelectric crystal, quartz it builds a charge 01:06:24.050 --> 01:06:26.550 and then you liberate that charge when you when 01:06:26.550 --> 01:06:29.650 you take the stress off the crystal so bone is 01:06:29.650 --> 01:06:33.269 a piezoelectric material when you bend bone it 01:06:33.269 --> 01:06:36.550 forms a charge at the highest stress point. That 01:06:36.550 --> 01:06:40.909 charge draws in free negative ions of calcium 01:06:40.909 --> 01:06:44.730 and magnesium and things like that, and it sticks 01:06:44.730 --> 01:06:48.690 the new ions onto the high stress point. So you 01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:52.289 actually lay down bone very cleverly at the highest 01:06:52.289 --> 01:06:56.030 stress point. Well, impact turns out to be one 01:06:56.030 --> 01:07:02.090 of the best. signalers to lay down bone. So first 01:07:02.090 --> 01:07:05.469 of all, if you don't walk, that's a big problem. 01:07:05.630 --> 01:07:10.579 And if you walk... in very soft air shoes or 01:07:10.579 --> 01:07:14.460 whatever you want to call those, you're taking 01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:19.039 out the shock that your body thrives on. So if 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:25.980 you go barefoot or walk with more stiff heels, 01:07:26.360 --> 01:07:29.840 you will actually create more impact up through 01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:35.139 your articulated linkage to maintain that charge. 01:07:36.470 --> 01:07:41.949 lays down a new bone um but that wasn't your 01:07:41.949 --> 01:07:44.389 your question your question was really on footwear 01:07:44.389 --> 01:07:47.989 while you're lifting now we get into quite a 01:07:47.989 --> 01:07:54.010 different discussion uh there's one you said 01:07:54.010 --> 01:07:56.269 you wanted to be better connected to the ground 01:07:56.269 --> 01:08:00.230 and that was a very clever thing to say because 01:08:00.230 --> 01:08:07.239 now lifters some put great priority in the proprioceptive 01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:11.599 system. So for example, when you can grip the 01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:14.320 ground with your toes and your heels and really 01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:18.220 root, as it's called in the lifting world, and 01:08:18.220 --> 01:08:23.699 you create a good stiff spine with an appropriate 01:08:23.699 --> 01:08:27.640 hip hinge, this creates the highest density. 01:08:28.670 --> 01:08:31.970 of neural drive. So your brain thinks of the 01:08:31.970 --> 01:08:34.750 movement and it sends out a volley of electrical 01:08:34.750 --> 01:08:38.130 pulses strategically throughout your body. That 01:08:38.130 --> 01:08:42.329 density determines your strength. If your body 01:08:42.329 --> 01:08:46.430 detects a poor root on the ground and you're 01:08:46.430 --> 01:08:51.029 slightly unable to control the center of mass 01:08:51.029 --> 01:08:55.449 and the base of support, your brain shuts down 01:08:55.449 --> 01:08:57.989 the neural drive. If it detects a little bit 01:08:57.989 --> 01:09:00.270 of instability in your low back through injury, 01:09:00.470 --> 01:09:02.810 it shuts down the neural drive to your hips. 01:09:02.869 --> 01:09:07.210 There's almost a fuse box there where your proprioceptive 01:09:07.210 --> 01:09:10.770 system says, you know, let's preserve this system 01:09:10.770 --> 01:09:13.909 because right now it's non -optimal. So now the 01:09:13.909 --> 01:09:17.270 next layer of discussion goes, what footwear? 01:09:17.319 --> 01:09:22.140 creates the greatest root and therefore the potential 01:09:22.140 --> 01:09:24.760 for the greatest strength in neural drive. Well, 01:09:24.819 --> 01:09:29.159 now it's interesting. We get into the full spectrum 01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:34.300 of biological response. So some lifters and how 01:09:34.300 --> 01:09:37.380 we just do the grand experiment. We put them 01:09:37.380 --> 01:09:40.460 into Olympic lifting shoes, which, as you know, 01:09:40.579 --> 01:09:45.239 have very stiff, either plastic or wooden soles. 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:49.300 in the shoes they have a elevated heel and they 01:09:49.300 --> 01:09:52.560 have a buckle that goes over the top of the laces 01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:58.060 to really stiffen the foot and lock it down and 01:09:58.060 --> 01:10:00.979 yet you will find other lifters who lift barefoot 01:10:00.979 --> 01:10:04.079 or in ballet slippers the absolute polar opposite 01:10:04.079 --> 01:10:07.079 they have a different proprioceptive and neurological 01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:10.640 system so what we do is we'll give the lifter 01:10:11.130 --> 01:10:14.550 uh, what we're going to do have two lifting sessions 01:10:14.550 --> 01:10:16.670 and we'll go back and forth. The first time they 01:10:16.670 --> 01:10:19.310 get really bound down tight in the Olympic lifting 01:10:19.310 --> 01:10:23.130 shoes. The next session they go to the ballet 01:10:23.130 --> 01:10:26.729 slippers and then we find out how did their system 01:10:26.729 --> 01:10:29.329 respond. And usually they're so aware they say, 01:10:29.449 --> 01:10:32.029 no, you know, for me, I like the lifting shoes 01:10:32.029 --> 01:10:34.529 and the stiffness and connection I get there. 01:10:34.649 --> 01:10:37.850 And the next man or woman will say, no, I love 01:10:37.850 --> 01:10:40.329 barefoot. That really unleashes my neurology. 01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:44.319 So that's how we bracket it and discover what 01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:48.380 is best for the individual. Okay, fantastic. 01:10:48.619 --> 01:10:50.600 Now I want to touch on one other area, moving 01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:53.960 away from that, before we do some wrap -up questions, 01:10:54.060 --> 01:10:55.560 because you've been very, very generous. I know 01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:58.500 we're getting on past the hour now. But you talked 01:10:58.500 --> 01:11:02.380 about the military changing their PT tests, and 01:11:02.380 --> 01:11:05.079 obviously one of the reasons is something that 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:06.880 you're well -known for discussing, which is the 01:11:06.880 --> 01:11:09.699 sit -up. So would you mind elaborating on that 01:11:09.699 --> 01:11:15.569 for me? Yes. It's been military tradition for 01:11:15.569 --> 01:11:19.529 decades, particularly in the US, but around the 01:11:19.529 --> 01:11:22.909 world as well, to have speed sit -ups as part 01:11:22.909 --> 01:11:26.329 of the annual fitness test. Well, when you talk 01:11:26.329 --> 01:11:30.569 to some of the people, some of the physical therapists 01:11:30.569 --> 01:11:35.489 in the US military, they will tell you that the 01:11:35.489 --> 01:11:39.479 soldiers train. to pass the physical fitness 01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:44.619 test, and one report suggested that the number 01:11:44.619 --> 01:11:49.279 one cause of GIs returning from, I believe it 01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:51.560 was Afghanistan, it might have been Iran, I can't 01:11:51.560 --> 01:11:55.239 remember now, was a back pain associated with 01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:58.880 soldiers training the test. And every day... 01:11:59.149 --> 01:12:02.850 I get emails from American military personnel 01:12:02.850 --> 01:12:07.229 saying, oh, I dread the test. It's coming up. 01:12:07.270 --> 01:12:10.069 I've hurt my back training for it. Do you have 01:12:10.069 --> 01:12:14.050 any suggestions? So listening to all of this, 01:12:14.109 --> 01:12:16.810 there's been some leadership in the military. 01:12:16.829 --> 01:12:21.369 I believe the Navy. Uh, and, and factions of 01:12:21.369 --> 01:12:24.890 the air force have now taken out, uh, sit -ups 01:12:24.890 --> 01:12:27.510 and they've replaced them with front planks, 01:12:27.529 --> 01:12:29.630 which has another issue because the front plank 01:12:29.630 --> 01:12:34.010 is limited by shoulder, uh, integrity. But, uh, 01:12:34.250 --> 01:12:37.829 anyway, and there was another group, uh, in the 01:12:37.829 --> 01:12:41.670 States. Uh, I, I, I know one of the, uh, military 01:12:41.670 --> 01:12:44.829 captains, she, she's probably a general by now, 01:12:44.930 --> 01:12:48.250 but, but Deidre Tayen was, was one of the, uh, 01:12:48.510 --> 01:12:53.449 officers in charge of the study. And, uh, they, 01:12:53.609 --> 01:12:57.109 uh, took soldiers in basic training. I believe 01:12:57.109 --> 01:13:00.409 it was Fort Bragg, but I might know it was the 01:13:00.409 --> 01:13:04.909 one in Texas. Anyway, Fort Hood, maybe, uh, anyway, 01:13:05.210 --> 01:13:10.430 uh, they, uh, uh, in basic training had, uh, 01:13:10.649 --> 01:13:15.479 some of the soldiers not doing sit -ups. Instead, 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:18.319 they did exercises that we would recommend. Front 01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:22.020 planks, the modified curls, which really isn't 01:13:22.020 --> 01:13:25.739 a curl up at all. Stir the pod exercise on a 01:13:25.739 --> 01:13:29.300 gym ball, etc. And then at the end of basic training, 01:13:29.439 --> 01:13:32.239 they compared the two groups. The ones who didn't 01:13:32.239 --> 01:13:35.939 train sit -ups. but did it in spine -conserving 01:13:35.939 --> 01:13:39.359 ways, actually had higher athleticism. They performed 01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:42.720 better on the sit -up test once it was administered. 01:13:43.140 --> 01:13:47.060 I also have enough experience in the world of 01:13:47.060 --> 01:13:53.319 MMA because, you know, we've restored careers 01:13:53.319 --> 01:13:58.079 of jiu -jitsu fighters and top MMA fighters who 01:13:58.079 --> 01:14:02.670 did. By tradition of karate and some of these 01:14:02.670 --> 01:14:05.029 other martial arts, they might do a thousand 01:14:05.029 --> 01:14:08.329 sit -ups every day, which is fabulous until they're 01:14:08.329 --> 01:14:12.829 22 or 23 years of age. And then all of that motion 01:14:12.829 --> 01:14:15.470 and stress is now accumulated and they're so 01:14:15.470 --> 01:14:18.630 painful they can't practice jujitsu on the floor, 01:14:18.649 --> 01:14:22.310 which requires... bending their spine and deflection 01:14:22.310 --> 01:14:25.090 to go into guard and that kind of thing. So what 01:14:25.090 --> 01:14:29.329 we do is take out all of the sit -ups and replace 01:14:29.329 --> 01:14:33.430 them with stir the pod exercises and planks and 01:14:33.430 --> 01:14:35.489 rolling planks and these kinds of things. And 01:14:35.489 --> 01:14:37.829 lo and behold, they become even more athletic 01:14:37.829 --> 01:14:40.550 and their pain goes away. So there's a little 01:14:40.550 --> 01:14:46.119 bit of a start on the... sit up issue from a 01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:48.939 practical and applied point of view without really 01:14:48.939 --> 01:14:55.359 getting into the heavy discussion of how, for 01:14:55.359 --> 01:15:01.029 example. why do some people tolerate lots of 01:15:01.029 --> 01:15:03.510 sit -ups and the next person doesn't well a quick 01:15:03.510 --> 01:15:06.550 explanation to start that one would be if you 01:15:06.550 --> 01:15:09.149 took a thin willow branch you could bend it back 01:15:09.149 --> 01:15:12.710 and forth with no stress so it's not an issue 01:15:12.710 --> 01:15:15.029 but if you took a thicker branch and bent it 01:15:15.029 --> 01:15:17.329 a few times to the same amount of bend it would 01:15:17.329 --> 01:15:21.989 shatter right away because the stress in a round 01:15:21.989 --> 01:15:25.449 tube which is the spine basically is a function 01:15:25.449 --> 01:15:30.869 of its thickness or radial distance. So you would 01:15:30.869 --> 01:15:34.869 never, I hope, take an offensive tackle from 01:15:34.869 --> 01:15:38.199 the NFL and ask them to do sit -ups. Because 01:15:38.199 --> 01:15:40.619 by definition, they will have a heavier, thicker 01:15:40.619 --> 01:15:44.340 spine. Those are the ones that succumb much sooner 01:15:44.340 --> 01:15:48.100 than a very slender person who might be adept 01:15:48.100 --> 01:15:50.920 at gymnastics, for example, or they might be 01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:54.380 a yoga master, which is terrific. But they wouldn't 01:15:54.380 --> 01:15:58.979 last one play in surviving in the NFL. So, you 01:15:58.979 --> 01:16:02.260 know, there's wheels within wheels in understanding 01:16:02.260 --> 01:16:07.359 the nuances of programming exercise. Why? what 01:16:07.359 --> 01:16:11.180 is one person's poison is the next person's you 01:16:11.180 --> 01:16:14.100 know secret sauce to developing their athleticism 01:16:14.100 --> 01:16:17.159 it's it's something i've spent my my whole academic 01:16:17.159 --> 01:16:19.859 life and trying to understand all the variables 01:16:19.859 --> 01:16:23.119 that come into play so you know there isn't a 01:16:23.119 --> 01:16:26.199 single answer but i i keep coming back to this 01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:30.300 get a thorough assessment of the mechanism of 01:16:30.300 --> 01:16:33.899 the back pain and that will show you Is sit -ups 01:16:33.899 --> 01:16:36.960 really the preferred exercise tool for you? Or 01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:40.239 would you be far more athletic with a stir the 01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:43.439 pot or a front plank? Or, you know, instead of 01:16:43.439 --> 01:16:46.439 doing a deadlift, you might be far more athletic 01:16:46.439 --> 01:16:48.359 and injury resilient if you simply pushed your 01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:51.260 car back and forth in the parking lot. You know, 01:16:51.260 --> 01:16:56.720 people who only do deadlifts do that because... 01:16:56.989 --> 01:16:58.789 That's the only tool they have in their toolbox, 01:16:59.130 --> 01:17:02.470 not realizing that there are many other ways 01:17:02.470 --> 01:17:06.569 that would be more clever in attempting to build 01:17:06.569 --> 01:17:10.310 a resilient high performance back and body. Yeah, 01:17:10.310 --> 01:17:14.250 yeah. And I agree. The strongman type exercises, 01:17:14.310 --> 01:17:17.189 so the sled pushes and pulls and pulling the 01:17:17.189 --> 01:17:19.569 sled towards you with a thick rope and carrying 01:17:19.569 --> 01:17:22.829 sandbags, I found those have been great for me. 01:17:22.869 --> 01:17:24.850 But also when you take a step back and look at 01:17:24.850 --> 01:17:27.010 what we do on the fire ground, they're far more 01:17:27.010 --> 01:17:29.729 pertinent than standing there and cleaning or 01:17:29.729 --> 01:17:32.510 snatching or squatting where you're never going 01:17:32.510 --> 01:17:34.470 left, right, left, right like we would in real 01:17:34.470 --> 01:17:37.970 life. Well, exactly. So the Canadian military, 01:17:38.390 --> 01:17:43.149 we consulted with them, oh, a decade and a half 01:17:43.149 --> 01:17:46.649 ago, and they took out the speed sit -ups from 01:17:46.649 --> 01:17:49.529 their fitness test. And it is all strongmen now. 01:17:49.670 --> 01:17:54.989 It's all sandbag carries and tire lifts and those 01:17:54.989 --> 01:17:59.470 kinds of things because they're highly correlated 01:17:59.470 --> 01:18:02.399 with battleground performance. Yeah, exactly. 01:18:02.680 --> 01:18:04.380 All right. Well, I'm going to do some wrap up 01:18:04.380 --> 01:18:06.079 questions then so we can let you go. But you've 01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:07.979 been an absolute wealth of information. Thank 01:18:07.979 --> 01:18:11.960 you so much. So the first question I always ask 01:18:11.960 --> 01:18:15.140 is I'm going to list on the Web page that we 01:18:15.140 --> 01:18:18.020 have at JamesGerian .com all of your books. And 01:18:18.020 --> 01:18:20.260 we'll talk about where we can find you in a minute 01:18:20.260 --> 01:18:23.260 as well. But are there any books by other people 01:18:23.260 --> 01:18:25.600 that you love to recommend, whether it's about 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:27.760 what we've spoken about today or something completely 01:18:27.760 --> 01:18:34.529 different? Well, you can't give me such an open 01:18:34.529 --> 01:18:41.149 question. I would need a parameter on that. And 01:18:41.149 --> 01:18:47.149 I might not be the best to recommend those. I, 01:18:47.350 --> 01:18:52.609 you know, I know my area and I'm confident to. 01:18:53.760 --> 01:18:56.520 talk about that to get into other areas like, 01:18:56.579 --> 01:18:59.199 you know, nutrition and some of these other things. 01:18:59.260 --> 01:19:02.600 I wouldn't be the expert to make those recommendations. 01:19:03.199 --> 01:19:05.760 Okay, what about fiction then? Is there a fictional 01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:07.859 novel that you've loved that you've always told 01:19:07.859 --> 01:19:11.380 people? I don't know if I've ever read a fictional 01:19:11.380 --> 01:19:13.899 novel in my life. All right, we'll move on to 01:19:13.899 --> 01:19:15.939 the next one then. What about a movie and or 01:19:15.939 --> 01:19:22.140 a documentary? I watch documentaries when I train. 01:19:23.130 --> 01:19:26.229 And it wasn't really a documentary. I found the 01:19:26.229 --> 01:19:29.630 testimony of James Comey the other night incredibly 01:19:29.630 --> 01:19:34.050 fascinating. I've watched a documentary on your 01:19:34.050 --> 01:19:39.050 president, which, again, I found very interesting. 01:19:40.449 --> 01:19:46.390 Warren Buffett. Good people are good for a reason. 01:19:46.430 --> 01:19:49.760 And once again, you see patterns. And it's a 01:19:49.760 --> 01:19:54.460 matter of pattern recognition. So I enjoy those 01:19:54.460 --> 01:19:58.779 kinds of documentaries on successful people and 01:19:58.779 --> 01:20:02.319 the reason for it. Right. Okay. Now, is there 01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:04.840 a person that you would recommend to come on 01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:08.680 this podcast as a guest to talk to the police, 01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:12.079 fire, EMS, military of the world? Yeah, absolutely. 01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:18.859 He's a wonderful speaker and one of the graduate 01:20:18.859 --> 01:20:21.840 students that worked with me both on the Toronto 01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:26.380 Police Force study and on the Pensacola study 01:20:26.380 --> 01:20:29.819 is a young professor, University of Toronto, 01:20:29.899 --> 01:20:33.899 Dave Frost. He would be a fabulous guest for 01:20:33.899 --> 01:20:39.340 you, for the first responders. He knows that 01:20:39.340 --> 01:20:43.520 world inside and out. He's a favorite guest for 01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:47.859 the... what is it, the IAFF, International Firefighters, 01:20:47.859 --> 01:20:50.460 whatever that one is. He's spoken to their medical 01:20:50.460 --> 01:20:54.819 groups many, many times. There are other people, 01:20:54.939 --> 01:21:00.439 though, that are really world leaders. Have you 01:21:00.439 --> 01:21:03.520 ever heard of Pavel Sotsulin? I have, yes, of 01:21:03.520 --> 01:21:08.579 Strong First. Yeah, Pavel is a Russian. I've 01:21:08.579 --> 01:21:13.819 known him many years. He knows strength. He's 01:21:13.819 --> 01:21:18.140 also a wonderful friend. He's taught me so much. 01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:22.899 He's been there and he knows the science and 01:21:22.899 --> 01:21:27.260 he knows how to put it in practice. And he loves 01:21:27.260 --> 01:21:32.529 working with first responders. He loves the toughness 01:21:32.529 --> 01:21:36.890 and that synergy of psychological and physical. 01:21:38.189 --> 01:21:40.550 Let me tell you a story of the first time I met 01:21:40.550 --> 01:21:43.010 Pavel. You'll enjoy this. At least the first 01:21:43.010 --> 01:21:47.989 responders will. I was a keynote speaker in Minneapolis. 01:21:49.369 --> 01:21:51.850 at the National Strength and Conditioning Association, 01:21:52.329 --> 01:21:55.670 NSCA. And I did my talk. And after the talk, 01:21:55.750 --> 01:21:57.789 there was this large group of people, you know, 01:21:57.789 --> 01:22:00.270 that sort of descend on the podium at the end 01:22:00.270 --> 01:22:02.789 of these things to ask questions and whatnot. 01:22:03.229 --> 01:22:05.430 And people would ask me questions. And there 01:22:05.430 --> 01:22:09.329 was this fella in the back. And he said, sir, 01:22:09.529 --> 01:22:12.229 what do you think of this? And he asked a big 01:22:12.229 --> 01:22:15.029 fella to lay on his back on the ground. And then 01:22:15.029 --> 01:22:18.630 he bent down and he picked this guy up. And just 01:22:18.630 --> 01:22:20.890 lifted him right up on his shoulder. And he said, 01:22:20.930 --> 01:22:23.810 what did you think of that? And I said, that 01:22:23.810 --> 01:22:26.989 was perfect. And the people around me went, ooh, 01:22:27.270 --> 01:22:30.829 oh, that's terrible. And I said, sir, you did 01:22:30.829 --> 01:22:33.670 that absolutely perfectly. And, you know, in 01:22:33.670 --> 01:22:36.350 my own mind, there's no easy way to pick a body 01:22:36.350 --> 01:22:41.270 off the ground. But he did. it perfectly employing 01:22:41.270 --> 01:22:45.430 every principle perfectly and uh so afterwards 01:22:45.430 --> 01:22:47.630 of course i was very intrigued on on who this 01:22:47.630 --> 01:22:51.210 guy was and we went to lunch and long story short 01:22:51.210 --> 01:22:54.510 we've been best friends ever since so he would 01:22:54.510 --> 01:22:59.170 be a fabulous guest um dan john have you heard 01:22:59.170 --> 01:23:01.149 of dan john you know it's funny because i saw 01:23:01.149 --> 01:23:05.289 uh david frost talk at t -sac and i did a clinic 01:23:05.289 --> 01:23:08.630 with dan john at t -sac as well OK, so, you know, 01:23:08.750 --> 01:23:11.989 look, it's a small world, but but these are the 01:23:11.989 --> 01:23:15.909 stars that I'm describing. Dan John is it's funny. 01:23:16.010 --> 01:23:19.329 We're both of the same age, same vintage, same 01:23:19.329 --> 01:23:22.010 sort of background, although he's a lot stronger 01:23:22.010 --> 01:23:27.750 than I am. But Dan just has good old fashioned 01:23:27.750 --> 01:23:35.029 wisdom. He's just a sensible guy. So. he's able 01:23:35.029 --> 01:23:39.109 to take complex things and he makes them simple. 01:23:39.229 --> 01:23:42.270 Like, let me give you his statement on nutrition. 01:23:43.069 --> 01:23:48.170 Eat like an adult. Now, can you see how much 01:23:48.170 --> 01:23:50.729 wisdom that one sentence has? You know, if you 01:23:50.729 --> 01:23:53.470 asked me, you know, to make a statement on nutrition, 01:23:53.689 --> 01:23:57.529 it would be a five -page report. And then Dan 01:23:57.529 --> 01:24:01.399 would say, oh. Eat like an adult. And, you know, 01:24:01.460 --> 01:24:05.140 it just makes so much sense. And his wisdom on 01:24:05.140 --> 01:24:08.840 rest and recovery and patterns of movement, it's 01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:13.880 just good old -fashioned wisdom. Anyway, I can 01:24:13.880 --> 01:24:17.840 go on and on. But there's a few, three guests, 01:24:17.979 --> 01:24:20.600 I guess, for you that would be fabulous for your 01:24:20.600 --> 01:24:23.439 audience. Yeah, I will genuinely reach out to 01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:25.380 all three of them. And I know I've had one of 01:24:25.380 --> 01:24:27.840 Pavel's master instructors, Zar Horton, who was 01:24:27.840 --> 01:24:30.899 a… A firefighter. I think he's a chief now in 01:24:30.899 --> 01:24:34.119 Albuquerque. And I had him on early on this podcast. 01:24:34.279 --> 01:24:36.319 And I'd love to reach out to Pavel because, yeah, 01:24:36.420 --> 01:24:39.520 I have, you know, several of his books and I've 01:24:39.520 --> 01:24:41.819 used kettlebells for years, too. And, yeah, I 01:24:41.819 --> 01:24:47.180 think the man's a genius. He is. And he's a wonderful 01:24:47.180 --> 01:24:50.939 human being as well. When you look at the number 01:24:50.939 --> 01:24:54.479 of careers he has started. You know, all these 01:24:54.479 --> 01:24:57.079 strength guys on the Internet doing this and 01:24:57.079 --> 01:25:00.140 that. So many of them got their start with Pavel. 01:25:00.260 --> 01:25:04.840 And I don't hear very often him being credited, 01:25:05.020 --> 01:25:07.619 but he should get a tremendous amount of credit 01:25:07.619 --> 01:25:12.260 for what he's done in the whole world of resilient 01:25:12.260 --> 01:25:15.539 strength. Absolutely. Well, it would be an honor 01:25:15.539 --> 01:25:17.159 if I was able to get him on. I would definitely. 01:25:17.659 --> 01:25:20.539 Work on that. So the very last question before 01:25:20.539 --> 01:25:22.439 we talk about where we can find all of your work 01:25:22.439 --> 01:25:25.880 is what do you do to decompress, to blow off 01:25:25.880 --> 01:25:30.800 steam? Oh, wow. What an insightful question. 01:25:32.220 --> 01:25:38.779 I used to do heavy physical exercise. So I would 01:25:38.779 --> 01:25:42.239 either train heavy or I would get on the heavy 01:25:42.239 --> 01:25:48.810 bag or something like that. And I used to joke 01:25:48.810 --> 01:25:52.270 with my wife that it kept me from committing 01:25:52.270 --> 01:25:56.310 murder. You know, if someone was getting under 01:25:56.310 --> 01:25:59.390 my skin, I'd just go and train a bit. But what 01:25:59.390 --> 01:26:03.229 do I do now? That's interesting. Well, I live 01:26:03.229 --> 01:26:08.369 in God's country. I live in northern Ontario. 01:26:08.569 --> 01:26:13.250 So in the winter, I do outside things. And in 01:26:13.250 --> 01:26:18.069 the summer, I... I do boating and, you know, 01:26:18.170 --> 01:26:20.590 just everything on the beautiful lakes here. 01:26:20.729 --> 01:26:24.430 And I love my dog and we go out and train and 01:26:24.430 --> 01:26:30.189 play. And yeah, that's such an, it's just a habit. 01:26:30.289 --> 01:26:32.869 I have my little routine every day. The first 01:26:32.869 --> 01:26:35.069 thing I do is I get up, have a coffee and go 01:26:35.069 --> 01:26:37.500 for a long walk. Brilliant. Yeah, I see when 01:26:37.500 --> 01:26:39.779 I ask this question, I see a lot of common denominators, 01:26:39.779 --> 01:26:41.479 too. And one of the big ones is just being out 01:26:41.479 --> 01:26:43.180 in nature, especially when people have a high 01:26:43.180 --> 01:26:45.359 stress job, you know, just to get out there and 01:26:45.359 --> 01:26:47.899 feel the sunshine on their face and cool air 01:26:47.899 --> 01:26:50.760 in their lungs. It seems to be very resetting 01:26:50.760 --> 01:26:54.119 for the soul. Well, if you can train outdoors, 01:26:54.640 --> 01:26:58.640 it's magical. And that's exactly what we have 01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:02.060 here. We have our training center in my house, 01:27:02.079 --> 01:27:06.239 which happens to be downstairs. And out in the 01:27:06.239 --> 01:27:09.699 back, we've got chin -up bars and ropes between 01:27:09.699 --> 01:27:13.779 trees. There's kettlebells out there. I did have 01:27:13.779 --> 01:27:17.060 1 ,000 pounds on an Olympic bar, believe it or 01:27:17.060 --> 01:27:20.279 not, but I just went and sold that. They were 01:27:20.279 --> 01:27:24.779 putting too many holes in my lawn out there. 01:27:26.779 --> 01:27:32.010 Oh, there's a stud out there to drag. Yeah, I 01:27:32.010 --> 01:27:35.569 agree as well. Why be in a big building with 01:27:35.569 --> 01:27:37.449 no windows when you can just be outside pushing 01:27:37.449 --> 01:27:39.630 things around in the grass or on the asphalt? 01:27:39.630 --> 01:27:43.630 And also, another thing is I split my own firewood. 01:27:43.890 --> 01:27:47.369 And I purposefully use a heavy splitting mall. 01:27:47.569 --> 01:27:50.250 And that is my training session. It's got just 01:27:50.250 --> 01:27:54.750 enough violence in it that it takes down the 01:27:54.750 --> 01:28:00.020 psychological stress a bit. That was a game I 01:28:00.020 --> 01:28:02.060 used to play with my graduate students. Some 01:28:02.060 --> 01:28:04.920 of them would train heavy and then I'd say, come 01:28:04.920 --> 01:28:08.399 on over. Let's split some firewood. And of course, 01:28:08.399 --> 01:28:12.000 they had no idea. So the skinny old white haired 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.460 professor would give them a lesson on super stiffness 01:28:14.460 --> 01:28:19.319 and how to create impact. I said this to someone 01:28:19.319 --> 01:28:20.819 the other day in an interview as well. There's 01:28:20.819 --> 01:28:23.779 something very masculine about chopping your 01:28:23.779 --> 01:28:25.659 own wood, too. At the end of it, you feel quite 01:28:25.659 --> 01:28:29.399 accomplished. Oh, yeah. And there's not too much 01:28:29.399 --> 01:28:31.970 more that makes the beer taste good. Yeah, exactly. 01:28:32.829 --> 01:28:35.390 All right. So then the most important question 01:28:35.390 --> 01:28:37.649 then. So how can people, after listening to this 01:28:37.649 --> 01:28:40.909 incredible interview, find your books, find the 01:28:40.909 --> 01:28:42.949 McGill Method and all the other platforms that 01:28:42.949 --> 01:28:45.600 you have online? Yeah, well, thank you for that. 01:28:45.819 --> 01:28:52.119 Our website is backfitpro .com and my books and 01:28:52.119 --> 01:28:55.739 DVDs and the various back supports that we've 01:28:55.739 --> 01:28:58.579 developed for people driving and whatnot are 01:28:58.579 --> 01:29:01.659 all on there together with we try and keep the 01:29:01.659 --> 01:29:05.479 content quite rich. People can also buy my books 01:29:05.479 --> 01:29:08.779 from Amazon and there's numerous vendors around 01:29:08.779 --> 01:29:10.880 the world. But if you go to BackFit Pro, the 01:29:10.880 --> 01:29:14.170 flags of the countries are on there. come from 01:29:14.170 --> 01:29:19.069 another country you can click on your flag um 01:29:19.069 --> 01:29:22.670 but may i just talk about the the books themselves 01:29:22.670 --> 01:29:26.710 for just a moment please yes yeah uh so i started 01:29:26.710 --> 01:29:30.100 i wrote my first book in the year 2000 And it 01:29:30.100 --> 01:29:32.659 was a heavy clinical textbook. I never in a million 01:29:32.659 --> 01:29:35.260 years thought I'd write for the lay public. So 01:29:35.260 --> 01:29:40.720 that was my first book. The second one was Ultimate 01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:42.819 Back Fitness and Performance. And again, I wrote 01:29:42.819 --> 01:29:45.640 that for the training crowd, the coaches, but 01:29:45.640 --> 01:29:47.939 people who had a little bit of savvy regarding 01:29:47.939 --> 01:29:53.850 training. And then the public. asked me and some 01:29:53.850 --> 01:29:56.069 publishers as well, would you write a book for 01:29:56.069 --> 01:30:00.029 the lay public? And that was something I'd never 01:30:00.029 --> 01:30:03.430 thought I would do. But I spent five years writing 01:30:03.430 --> 01:30:06.829 Back Mechanic. And it was the hardest book I 01:30:06.829 --> 01:30:09.189 wrote because I had to seek the balance between 01:30:09.189 --> 01:30:14.710 being truthful and honest versus making simple 01:30:14.710 --> 01:30:17.489 enough for the lay public. The book publisher 01:30:17.489 --> 01:30:20.409 said, oh, this won't sell. You've got to have 01:30:20.409 --> 01:30:23.479 a title. cure your back pain in five easy steps. 01:30:23.640 --> 01:30:25.899 And I said, but that's a lie. Anyone who sells 01:30:25.899 --> 01:30:29.600 you that might get a couple of backs better by 01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:32.460 dumb luck, but it's not possible. And I'm not 01:30:32.460 --> 01:30:35.579 doing it. So I wrote Back Mechanic, which is 01:30:35.579 --> 01:30:39.500 17 chapters, but it guides the reader through 01:30:39.500 --> 01:30:42.880 an understanding of the pain mechanisms. Then 01:30:42.880 --> 01:30:46.189 it guides them through a self -assessment. putting 01:30:46.189 --> 01:30:48.489 themselves into different motions, postures and 01:30:48.489 --> 01:30:50.989 loads, and really getting an understanding of 01:30:50.989 --> 01:30:54.250 the category of pain mechanism. Then we show, 01:30:54.390 --> 01:30:57.130 based on their category, what they should stop 01:30:57.130 --> 01:30:59.630 doing and then what they need to do to build 01:30:59.630 --> 01:31:04.710 a pain -free foundation for whatever activity 01:31:04.710 --> 01:31:08.609 it is. But my last book Gift of Injury, I wrote 01:31:08.609 --> 01:31:13.390 that with Brian Carroll. Brian is a highly accomplished 01:31:13.390 --> 01:31:17.909 strength athlete. He's the only lifter that I 01:31:17.909 --> 01:31:21.010 know of who's lifted over a thousand pounds over 01:31:21.010 --> 01:31:24.810 50 times in national and international competition. 01:31:25.010 --> 01:31:28.210 But he came to me with a horrible fracture. He'd 01:31:28.210 --> 01:31:31.289 split his sacrum front to back and crushed L5. 01:31:31.470 --> 01:31:36.199 And it was his story. of uh what led to the injury 01:31:36.199 --> 01:31:41.600 and how he uh we bone calloused all through clever 01:31:41.600 --> 01:31:44.840 matched exercise regimens and then he spent another 01:31:44.840 --> 01:31:47.159 year getting his strength back and he went back 01:31:47.159 --> 01:31:49.939 to win the arnold's for the next two years after 01:31:49.939 --> 01:31:54.800 that so it's a Well, you said you read it. It's 01:31:54.800 --> 01:31:57.960 a very emotional read. I found out Brian could 01:31:57.960 --> 01:32:02.300 write. And when I read the first chapter that 01:32:02.300 --> 01:32:07.020 he wrote on how he got to the very dark place 01:32:07.020 --> 01:32:11.279 that he got to with the injury. We then turned 01:32:11.279 --> 01:32:14.859 the book into a manual for recovery of the strength 01:32:14.859 --> 01:32:18.060 athlete. And again, that was never anticipated. 01:32:18.060 --> 01:32:21.079 It just grew organically as I learned what a 01:32:21.079 --> 01:32:24.779 great writer Brian was. So anyway, those are 01:32:24.779 --> 01:32:29.060 four books anyway. All have different purposes. 01:32:29.199 --> 01:32:32.680 But if you're struggling with back pain, start 01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:36.159 with Back Mechanic. If you're interested in then. 01:32:38.069 --> 01:32:41.609 making the transition to redeveloping pain -free 01:32:41.609 --> 01:32:43.789 athleticism. If you're a strength athlete, go 01:32:43.789 --> 01:32:47.829 with a gift of injury. If you're an athlete or 01:32:47.829 --> 01:32:50.449 an occupational athlete, I would go more for 01:32:50.449 --> 01:32:53.220 ultimate back fitness. Fantastic. Well, I'll 01:32:53.220 --> 01:32:55.720 put all those books on the webpage jamesgearian 01:32:55.720 --> 01:32:58.539 .com for this episode. So they'll all be written 01:32:58.539 --> 01:33:00.140 down there as well as the link for the website. 01:33:01.079 --> 01:33:03.640 So I just want to say thank you so much. I knew 01:33:03.640 --> 01:33:05.460 this was going to be an incredible interview, 01:33:05.680 --> 01:33:07.979 but there's just so much information here. And 01:33:07.979 --> 01:33:11.520 again, so many rabbit holes for people to decide 01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:14.460 which area they want to go down and then explore 01:33:14.460 --> 01:33:17.640 more about their own unique, whether it's pain 01:33:17.640 --> 01:33:19.800 or hopefully the prevention route if they haven't 01:33:19.800 --> 01:33:23.470 got to that point. Well, terrific. Thank you 01:33:23.470 --> 01:33:27.250 very much, James. You got me with a couple of 01:33:27.250 --> 01:33:30.130 questions there that I normally don't get asked. 01:33:30.289 --> 01:33:34.409 So thanks for your thoughts in putting together 01:33:34.409 --> 01:33:38.229 your interview. And thanks once again as well 01:33:38.229 --> 01:33:42.550 for the support you provide to the first responders. 01:33:42.810 --> 01:33:48.149 I have to say I love the community. I love working 01:33:48.149 --> 01:33:51.619 with the men and women. And the jobs they do 01:33:51.619 --> 01:33:57.279 are, they are now getting their public recognition. 01:33:57.520 --> 01:34:01.159 But when I see them on the street, I quite often 01:34:01.159 --> 01:34:03.579 go up to them and just thank them for all they 01:34:03.579 --> 01:34:06.819 do. So thank you for your support of not only 01:34:06.819 --> 01:34:09.260 what you do, but what you do for them as well.