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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Geering, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show Army veteran,
retired law enforcement officer, and CrossFit
coach Steve Goen. Now, in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from Steve's journey
into the military, his transition into the world
of policing, SWAT, first responder fitness standards,
CrossFit, coaching youth athletes, farming, and
so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment, go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
it easier for others to find. And this is a free
library of almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all
I ask in return is that you help share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to every single person on planet Earth who
needs to hear them. So with that being said...
I introduce to you, Steve Goen. Enjoy. Well,
Steve, I want to start by saying two things.
Firstly, thank you to our mutual friends at The
Collective for basically making this introduction
when we were on the show together. And secondly,
I want to thank you for taking the time and coming
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Absolutely.
Thank you. We love our northern brothers. Now,
we were supposed to do it the other day, but
you were threatened with storms. Did they end
up being bad in the end? Yeah. And we had a big
thunderstorm last night, too. So it's all cleared
up now, though. So we're good. We should be good.
Brilliant. Are you getting cooler weather, warmer
weather? What's on the back end of this? It kind
of fluctuates now. It goes from 80s to cooler,
goes back up to 80s. So a day of rain and thunderstorms
and it jumps back. It's kind of like it doesn't
really know what it wants to do, but as long
as it doesn't rain more than one day, I'm happy.
Yeah, same here in Florida. We got some cooler
weather coming again after the rain. So very
first question, where on planet Earth are we
finding you today? We're in North Texas right
now. Well, I would love to start at the very
beginning of your timeline. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. So I was born in Salinas, California.
My dad was a Alameda County deputy sheriff. And
then right after I was born, he had gotten a
divorce and he had me and my brother and he moved
us down to Central Valley of California, Tulare.
And he became a police officer there. And I was
raised there in Tulare until I hit 18. And then
I take that back when I was 12. Well, when I
was six, my dad remarried my mom, who I consider
my mom. She is my mom. But it's the only thing
I've ever known. And she had my sister when I
was 12 years old. So I got a brother and a sister.
And after 18, I joined the Army. Went in as a
12 Bravo combat engineer sapper. Got stationed
in Hawaii for three years. Moved my way back
to Fort Ord, California for a couple months and
then finished up my last three years in Fort
Lewis, Washington. And we got out up in Washington
and then I started to, I kind of knew I wanted
to be a cop. You know, my dad, growing up with
it, my dad, I did ride alongs with my dad and
stuff. And then I just took some tests and a
couple of different agencies. And I finally got
hired by King County Sheriff's Office, which
is the county around Seattle up in Washington.
And I did 24 total years there with 19 of them
on SWAT. And I was a team leader on the SWAT
team there. Going all the way back to early life,
when you reflect back now, what were the pros
and what were the cons of being the son of a
cop? Number one, pro. as I preach it still today
as confidence. My dad and my mom kind of equaled
each other and it was perfect for me. My dad
didn't talk very much, but he was very confident
in his ability and he would, you know, he kind
of got me into that whole mindset stuff when
I joined the army. Not to break down mentally
because you can continue on with the body, right?
And things are just a mental game. You got to
fight through the mental game. But he didn't
talk very much. So I grew up rodeoing and riding
horses and stuff. And he would be out there watching
me when I was breaking horses and stuff. But
at night, my mom would talk to me. And I got
way more stuff from my mom that my dad didn't
tell me. And so my ability to communicate now
came from my mom. But my foundation came from
my dad. So they kind of equaled each other for
me. And what about cons, if any? I don't, I mean,
I don't know. You know, everything kind of seems
to me, it just kind of works out. And unless
it's glaring, I don't really mention it because
it just doesn't have a big pull on my life. So
I wouldn't say that my mom or my dad had a huge
con in raising me where I have to give effort
to that and say, oh, that pulled me back because
nothing in my childhood pulled me back. I did
dumb stuff and I got held accountable. And it's
not their fault. It's my fault because I did
it. But the one thing that they always offered,
my mom did, is explanation. But my dad did too.
It was just more deliberate and direct communication
with my dad. But I've said this many times when
I've talked to colleges, I've talked to high
schools. I don't look back at my childhood and
think, oh, this was detrimental to how I am now.
I mean, I grew up without a mother from zero
to six. It was just my dad raising us until he
married my mom. But I don't use that as a thing
where now, you know, I'm an alcoholic. I don't
drink, you know. So I'm not an alcoholic, I say,
because I don't drink. That's what I'm saying
is I don't use those benchmarks to say, oh, I
do this because I didn't have a mom. You see
what I'm saying? And so I never really played
into the fact that a con pulled me down far enough
to make me do something in my life. Now, I know
what's right. I raise a good family. My daughters
are. strong and confident in kind of how i was
raised it's interesting reflecting back because
i had you know quite a few things when i was
younger as well i was in a house fire when i
was four almost died like genuinely almost died
uh parents had a absolutely horrendous divorce
nasty nasty divorce but when i look back and
ask the question well why didn't i struggle like
so many of our brothers and sisters do you know
i am no better a person but ironically i grew
up on a farm my dad was an equine veterinarian
so i grew up around horses i grew up around growing
our own food nature getting dirty you know shared
suffering all these things that we know are very
beneficial and you know i feel like that was
a big part of it i think that you know when you
have those challenges because i mean it is a
thing to a young young mind why wasn't i good
enough for mom to stay around you know is the
thing that you hear a lot with dad but I truly
believe that those become strength if you're
given the ability to work through it. When you
reflect back now, did horses, did that upbringing
help you? I mean, it wouldn't have been obviously
conscious at the time, but were there healing
elements woven into your childhood like there
were with mine that you think helped turn those
into resilience rather than push them down and
let them come up later like a lot of our people
do? Yeah, obviously, because I think if you have
issues going on in your lifetime, Silence is
when the devil starts to creep in in the dark
because that's when bad thoughts become intrusive
in your head and you start thinking stuff and
you think you're alone. When you're active, the
brain is focused on what activity you're doing
and you don't find those dark spots. So you do,
I am an advocate of living life through action.
And that's one of our things for our apparel
brand and what we teach the girls and stuff.
And so having horses and doing rodeos and riding
bulls, I was constantly doing stuff. you know?
And so, I think that just keeps the mind active.
So, when you go in at the end of the day, you're
tired. So, you eat and you go to bed. We didn't
have cell phones then, right? We had a small
little black and white television in my room
that you had to get out of bed to turn the channels,
right? So, you just were, it was, we didn't get
caught up too much into silence because we were
always doing stuff. And if I wasn't doing stuff
on my own, I had buddies. So, I would team rope
every Friday night. And every Wednesday night,
sometimes with my dad, I would go out and we'd
team pin with horses and cows and stuff. But
we always had horses and I rode every single
day. I'd get home from high school and I would
be out there riding our horses, you know, and
I had other clients that I would break horses
for or condition with. And I was just staying
pretty active. Did you play other sports as well?
Or was that your main focus? Yeah, I played baseball
for probably about eight years from little, little
tiny grades all the way up into maybe 15 years
old. And then I played one year of freshman football
in high school. But I was like, man, I was probably
like 128 pounds. I was skinny little dude. And
I liked it, but I just kind of drifted away and
got into rodeo. And I started focusing more on
riding horses and team roping. And so I just
kind of. I drifted to that and it wasn't because
of a team atmosphere or anything like that. It
was just like, I kind of like what I did and,
but we lived it too. So we had horses and we
would always go up in the mountains and pack
for, uh, during deer season, or we'd go up there
and pack on horses and, and camp up there. I've
been up in the Sierra Nevada is like a bunch
growing up with my dad and his buddies and stuff.
You mentioned about going to the military when
you were in the high school age, were you already
dreaming of that? Or was this something else
in your mind? No, to be honest with you, that's
where a direct communication came from my dad.
And it was in our back, my back room. And he
was next to me on my bed. And I swore I wanted
to be a PRCA card holding cowboy. I wanted to
join the pro rodeo circuit. And he told me, he
goes, it's a rough life. You got to be very,
very good. And it costs money. And sometimes
if you lose, you don't get paid. It's just a
very rough life. And he goes, have you ever thought
about the military? His brother, my uncle, made
a career out of the Air Force. And my dad was
kind of pushing the Air Force on me. And I just,
I didn't want anything to do with the military.
And I was talking to one of my buddies that went
into the Marine Corps. And my dad was in that,
we were in the kitchen one day and he was talking
to me. And he said, well, have you thought about
it? I was like, well, the Marine Corps is like,
no, you don't want to be a grunt. Don't be a
grunt. So he's thinking more technical, right?
and have skills and stuff. And so, man, it came
across where I, it literally was, I think I was
dating or seeing a gal that was in the army reserve.
And it was a very short stint that I knew this
gal, but somehow she linked me up with an army
recruiter. And then I just listened. And then
I just took the test. And they sat me down and
said, okay, this is what you qualified for. And
they showed me all these videos. And I saw a
guy run up to a tree with a bunch of C4 and he
blew the tree up and they did some Bangalore
torpedoes. I'm like, man, I want to do that.
I didn't know anything besides that. And then
I just, you know, I can't, I don't even know
how I said it to my mom and dad, but I just told
him I was joining the army. And to this day,
best thing I ever did to get out of a small town,
best thing I ever did. And my dad was right.
And at the time I didn't want to believe him.
He was telling me, you got to get out of a small
town. You got to go see the world. You got to
experience it, but you can't sit here. You cannot
stay here. And boy, was he right. But at 17,
18, you don't want to listen to that. No, absolutely
not. You mentioned where you were stationed.
I know this was pre 9 -11. So what were the experiences
over those few years? While I was stationed overseas
or in Hawaii and stuff? Yeah, and domestically
as well. You know, peacetime and the desert storm
broke out when I was in Hawaii. And so in 91,
and they recalled us for an emergency information
and they didn't, they didn't say anything other
than they asked for volunteers. So we all volunteered
and then found out that they only took one chief
warrant officer from our battalion and they left
us alone in Hawaii because we protected the Philippines.
So no one, none of us got deployed. And then
I went to a couple of schools and then Fort Ord,
California was pretty short. My grandfather was
in World War II and that's where he went to basic
at Fort Ord, which is next to Salinas where I
was born. So it was kind of cool. I was only
there for a very short time. They merged a couple
of engineer battalions together and then off
we went up to Washington State, Fort Lewis. Did
you ever get to talk to your granddad about that?
about his service in general. The reason I ask,
so often when you hear the stories of the homecoming
of World War II, we kind of project this greatest
generation in the world onto them. And absolutely,
as far as heroism and sacrifice and service,
no one will question that. But there's almost
this... assumption as well this oh they came
back and just rolled up their sleeves and everyone
was fine but you talk to a lot of these people
i've had a few world war ii vets that i've actually
interviewed and then a lot of people obviously
that's in their family and you realize that no
that like so many of us you know they struggled
immensely too you know over the whole generation
and there were some that just like we were talking
about that managed to still be okay when they
transition and there were a lot of them that
didn't yeah they uh i know my grandmother worked
in a jeep factory during world war ii And my
grandfather never really spoke about the war
or anything. And he went in as a cook. And it
wasn't until he was not doing too well, my grandmother
had already passed, that he started opening up
to my dad. And he talked about killing an officer,
a German officer. And he took his sword from
him because they were able to bring back some
memorabilia back then. And so my dad sent me
his. DD -214 and I looked it over and my grandfather
got two bronze stars. And so what I assumed would
happen was he went in as a cook, but they needed
forces on the line. So they said, Hey, guess
what? You're going to be attached to this infantry
unit and you're going to go fight here. And that's
what happened with him. And so, but at the very
end, he was starting to kind of get in dimension
a little bit when he was talking to my dad. He
would talk about it, but he just, his whole life,
even with my dad, he never really talked about
it. But I don't think they had outlets only from
person to person when they would see people.
A buddy of his, probably they talked about it,
but they didn't talk about it with their family.
They didn't have social media. They didn't have
podcasts. They didn't have the technology we
have now to reach out. Especially people like
you that care for more people with mental health
issues and stuff in the professions and jobs
of military and law enforcement and firefighting
that they go through. It gives people an outlet
now to speak about it. Back then, the outlet
was going to see Joe that lives down the road
that was in the battalion next to you in Africa.
And that's how they talked about it. But he never
really spoke about it to my dad until close to
being when he was dying. He talked about a couple
of things that happened. Yeah, it is so sad because,
I mean, you hear, you know, you hear these stories
of, you know, what grandma or grandpa did back
then if they were, you know, able to open up
or, like I said, through some of the ones I've
had, even on the show. And there's so many lessons.
These are the voices we should be hearing. There's
cautionary tales of this is what happens if.
And I feel like they were exactly like, even
when this was evolving and we were finally starting
to create this environment where you could talk,
there was still that, oh, but don't you guys
talk because you're the greatest generation and
you just came home and you're the toughest. And
I wonder how many of those, you know, obviously
now at that point would have been very old veterans
really wanted to actually finally stand up and
talk about it. But there was almost that stigma
on that era where it made it even worse for them
to talk, I think. There may have been something
like that. I agree with you on that. And I think
that if a majority of people aren't doing something
and you step out and you do something against
the majority, you're kind of offsetting yourself
from, and it might be collectively not looked
well upon. I don't know, but I can say that human
nature is human nature. And I can almost guarantee
you that you take a war vet here. The World War
II guys are having the same feelings and stuff
that these guys are having because of what you
see, what you do, the duration in country. And
I mean, I've often said firefighting and law
enforcement, you compound that over 30 years,
you see a lot of stuff. You see a lot of bad
stuff and you see human nature at its worst.
Now, I'm not comparing it to combat, but I'm
saying the trauma that you take in and that you
reserve back because you go to the next call.
And you forget about what you, you know what
I mean? And so your outlet has to be at home.
Then when you're at home and your outlet's there,
if you don't have a support group, then it leads
to divorce. And then there is separation between
the kids and you. And so what I've always, through
my career, have told people, stay active in something
other than your primary job. So if you're a cop,
and for my instance, I was SWAT, I liked doing
those things, but they were not who I was. That
was not my foundation. And so we raised beef
cows. We have horses. We have property. My girls
compete, so I'm coaching my girls. We're constantly
doing something. And so some people have a hard
time transitioning out. I had a great time transitioning
out. I didn't have any issues at all. I actually
loved it. You know what I mean? What was it that
put law enforcement on the radar when you transitioned
out? I kind of already knew that I wanted to
do it because of my dad. I mean, the apple doesn't
fall far from the tree. And I just, you know,
my dad was my hero, still is my hero. And he
was well -respected. People liked him. I knew
what people said, not in front of him, to me.
You know, and the friendships that he had and
the leadership he had and how he could take control
of the situation. I mean, just all those little
micro things that you pick up as a kid that you
want to emulate as a young adult. When you're
young at the time, you don't, you don't see it,
but as you start to become your own and you start
stepping into leadership roles, I mean, you know,
I've said for years that leaders are not born.
There's a thing out there that say leaders are
born. They are made a hundred percent. They're
made, but your foundation comes from somewhere
where you were raised. And if not, where you
were raised, whoever mentored you as a young
person, because some of those traits and values
will never leave you, you know? Absolutely. So
talk to me about your front door experience.
So I want to dive into DTAC. I want to dive into
fitness standards and all things. But what was
the standard when you first walked through a
door in law enforcement? The fitness standard
was pretty plain. I mean, like the whole state
had to do the same thing. It was like a mile
run, 35 push -ups, 35 sit -ups, nothing crazy,
nothing crazy at all. You know, and then once
you got past that in my department, you never
had to do a fitness standard ever again, which
I disagreed with a hundred percent. And so nothing
there. And then our defensive tactics you run
into. So you take something, what you do in your
job, the likelihood of you getting in a fight
is probable. It just is right. Some fight more
than others. And so with that. Should you know
how to be confident in your skills to not even
make it a fight? When you're confident in your
ability, you can talk yourself out of a fight,
right? And so I've always talked myself out.
I think I've been in maybe five, six fights in
24 years, right? But it didn't matter what they
called me. They called me short. They called
me this. They called me that. That didn't bother
me, and it didn't get my goat. But I knew how
to fight, too. And so what you see now is an
explosion in like jujitsu and martial arts or
MMA. And I will tell you firsthand, those are
the guys that don't fight. They just don't. It's
the weaker ones that don't know how to fight
that they start to get a little heavy handed
and they get the use of force complaints and
stuff like that. Not all the time, but our defensive
tactics was pretty good. I mean, in the academy,
we had to do a fight for life. where someone
just beats you up and you have to stay in there
for like a couple minutes, then just getting
hit, you know? And I thought that was great because
a lot of people feel what it's like to get hit.
You know what I mean? And so, of course, all
that's gone away now. Because again, what I'm
trying to get to is when you start doing stuff
like this, what happens? People get hurt. People
get hurt in training. It takes you off the street.
It lowers your numbers. And so, you know, I've
often said that we'll always foster the weak,
but will condemn the strong. And it needs to
be reversed because confidence always comes from
strength, never weakness. Bullying comes from
weakness, right? Not strong people. Speaking
of strong, when I, it's funny, when I look back,
I had such low self -esteem because I probably
was a lot stronger than I realized being grown
up on a farm, you know, doing everything from
mucking out stables to wrangling sheep to, you
know, all things when kids were watching TV and,
you know, not doing all that stuff. When you
reflect back now, whether it was boot camp in
the military or whether it was entering law enforcement,
how much did that farm strength factor into your
athleticism? How I was raised, again, built that
foundation for me. Literally what the military
did, it just reinforced of how my dad was. That's
it. Like if my dad came home and there was a
piece of clothing out of place, out of my closet,
laying on my bed, it had to be removed and put
where it needs to go. The Army is the same way.
It's dress right dress. It's clean your stuff
up, make everything secured. You know, it just
heightened everything how I was raised for me.
And again, like I always knew that I wanted to
be in the law enforcement. So my when I was in
the Army in Hawaii. I was always confident, but
I didn't know why I was confident until I learned
how to fight. So I took martial arts in Waipahu,
Hawaii, and I gained another level of confidence
I didn't realize I had. Once I secured that I
knew that I could fight, I got way more confident.
Which martial arts did you do? I did Shotokan
Gojiru karate, which is a few primary, a little
bit of judo. And then I did a couple of years
of jujitsu. And so I I've been plagued with some
injuries through the military and law enforcement.
I've had 21 surgeries. So I've got titanium everywhere
in my body and I've torn a lot of my tendons,
not from martial arts and not from working out,
but just from job related stuff. So. I got to
kind of take things a little bit easier now in
life. So I mentioned I grew up on a farm in England.
It was quite a shock when I actually entered
the fire service and started working in mostly,
apart from the last department, I always worked
in, you know, the most struggling areas of the
seas. So very, very different. There are urban
stroll, the desperation, you know, the crime,
et cetera. What was your experience from your
background versus working in uniform now? So
like growing up on a little small ranch or something?
Yeah. I mean, had you been exposed to the areas
that you were working in, was there a jarring
element compared to the areas that you've grown
up in? Or was it similar to where you've grown
up? Oh, no. I grew up in the country and I worked
in the inner cities. You know what I mean? So
there was like polar opposite. But with confidence,
you learn how to mold. And you learn how to speak
to people. And so I could roll into Seattle and
I could talk to a 74 Hoover Crip, right? They
understand the game. They do the crime. We chase
them. We put them in jail. It's a weird mutual
underlying respect there. But I don't try to
bring the way I was raised up into their atmosphere.
You know what I mean? So I say the one thing
that... farm kids grew up with and ranch kids
that grew up with where people talk about farm
strength, I think it's more mental because you
don't get to leave until the task is done on
a ranch or a farm. You can't just put some fence
up halfway and call it a day and come in here
and drink Coke and watch TV. You can't do that.
And so I think that mental piece to that of how
I was raised, just it grew into my careers and
stuff like that. But where I came from to where
I was, polar opposites but you learn how to communicate
with people you know and so the military throws
you into a big old pool of different cultures
all living in the same barracks you know so you
got a kid from Kentucky that's a coal miner and
you had a kid from Detroit that was in a gang
that realized he was going to go to jail or go
to the military and then everyone just seems
to get along because you have a common core objective
that everyone's trying to strive for. With that
being such a thing, how do we get away from this
deliberate pigeonholing and separation of people
based on that very element? Because when I think
about Americans, I think the military, the first
responder professions are the perfect example.
And even more so in the fire service, because
I've pointed out, if we're in our full bunker
gear on air in a burning building. The only prejudice
that we have is, is that a good firefighter or
a bad firefighter? You can tell from the fire
ground what they're doing. That is it. It doesn't
matter who they sleep with, what they look like,
where they pray. They're either good or they're
bad. But this last year, especially, I feel like,
well, that's unfair. Let's say the last nine
years, there has been a deliberate wedge to separate
people, to label people, to set people against
each other based on these, you know, linear.
single -layer descriptions or groupings, if you
like, how do we refine the very lessons that
we've seen in the military, in the first responder
professions, where, again, we work and risk our
lives side by side with people from all backgrounds?
You know, I think people get... too tied up into
being a me culture. And that's where that separation
comes from. Like I'm going to outdo you and say,
I got more trauma than you, or I've got worse
hardships than you. So the limelight's on me,
not you. You know what I mean? And so when I've
gone and I talk to teams now, I still, I still
contract overseas. So I go to Africa and the
Middle East quite a bit. And we build team dynamics
wherever we go. And so when you talk to people,
It's not just Americans that are tied into their
phone on Instagram or TikTok. The entire continent
of Africa is too. They all have little cell phones
that they've gotten. The Middle East is the same
way. And they learn through visual looking and
they think this is how things are applied until
you actually talk to them, right? When you build
team dynamics, I think what you're speaking about
as far as like how to get people singular mindset
on an objective, because I don't care. who you're
married to. We have a job to do over here and
that's to put this fire out. So you and I need
to have shared skills, equal amount of skills
to put that fire out. Right. But we get so tied
up into, because I think it's because I want
to be on a pedestal just a little bit above you.
So I'm going to make it about me and human nature.
Most of the time they lie. So if someone asks
someone's their feelings or whatnot, sometimes
they'll lie or they'll omit things from their
story to make it more believable. And they won't
give you the full truth until you start breaking
things down. Like when you do an interrogation,
criminals lie and you have to get the truth.
And so sometimes it could be done within five
minutes and sometimes it takes over an hour,
but you can finally get the truth out of people.
But initially they want to lie because they don't
want to look either bad. They don't want to admit
guilt or. Um, they omit things from their story
to make it more believable for their side. And
so it's, I think it's a human nature thing too,
to be kind of like, Hey, me, me, me. But what
happens is with Instagram and TikTok and all
this other stuff, it is compounded now by me,
me, me. And I am, I'm one step above, but if
you go to a team right now, you might have one
or two guys in there. And we kind of quashed
that on our team. Um, give me an example. We
were out of the range. New guy comes out. He
wasn't on the team yet, but he had some of those
morale patches all over his vest. And it said
shit magnet, secret squirrel. And I told him
to take them off. And I said, we don't do that
here. That's singling yourself out that you're
a shit magnet. Now, how does that look like if
one of the admins come out and they see a professional
team doing stuff and they see that? And that's
just my take, right? So we never wore stuff like
that. And I just wanted to kind of separate the
me to us. You know, if we did something, it wasn't
like our SWAT team. It was the sheriff's office.
We're an arm of the sheriff's office, right?
And so, but yeah, same thing with my family.
It's not I, it's us. Your kids are born into
their very first team, right? Mom and dad. There's
a hierarchy, just like leaderships have. But
everything they do reflects the name of our last
name, and everything we do reflects their last
name. So everyone does things as a team concept
here. What, when you reflect back, are some of
the career calls that you had, the ones that
really stick in your mind? There's a bunch, and
I've forgotten a bunch too, man. Uh, there was
a mountain mission we did that was pretty known.
I think Netflix is doing a thing on it now. Um,
you know, a guy killed his wife and kid went
up in the mountains and hid and he'd built a
bunker for eight years and we had to hike in
and go get him. Uh, and he ended up killing himself
and we had to recover his body out of the, out
of the bunker. But we were there a full, full
day, went back that night, got some sleep, came
back the morning and then got him out of the
bunker. That was a pretty good one because it
tested our capabilities that we've built, which
was good. We did a lot of helicopter. We had
an aircraft. So we did some stuff out of the
helicopter. We did a lot of explosive breaching.
So we did an explosive breach on that one. But,
you know, that one and with the things with kids
kind of hurt, they mess with me. And I don't,
if I don't have to go into a scene and see a
kid that's hurt, I won't. I just won't. There's
enough people in there to do. If things are calmed
down, there's absolutely nothing. I do not want
to feed that into my brain. So I have to remember
it later because there's certain things, as you
know, that just don't leave. A good buddy of
mine that I graduated the academy with was shot
and killed. And I was at home and I got the phone
call and I was kind of on our personal assistance
team. where I would go in there and help assist
other deputies with trauma and stuff. But I was
also on the SWAT team. The dispatcher said, Hey,
we need you. And I said, is it going to be a
SWAT call out? Cause I'm going to go a SWAT.
And she goes, I don't know. And then she told
me where he was shot. And I was just, to this
day, I was, I was like, he's not going to recover.
And they're like, we don't know that. We don't
know that. I stood in front of my dresser and
I did not know what to put on. And my wife got
out of bed and was like, what's wrong? And I'm
like, Steve's been shot. And so worst thing I
ever did is I went to the hospital with him laying
there with his wife and kid. And I just can't
get that out of my head. Those, you know, but
everyone's got something that they've gone through
in life. And so we did things for his kid throughout
the years. He would come out to the SWAT team
and we'd put a big thing on for him. And they
did toy drives and money things for his kid.
And it was great, you know, but. Those are a
couple of things. Like one was a, I like testing
capabilities because you train so hard. You want
to make sure that you know what you're doing
and that your team can perform a certain capability.
And the other ones, the traumatic ones, I try
not to focus too much on just because I don't
want that space in my brain, you know, there's
more, but I, you know, but I just, that's just
one that come out of my mind. Yeah. Well, I mean,
you just hit on a very important point though.
And I literally got to be on the positive receiving
end of this very early in my career, Anaheim.
We had a really horrible single vehicle accident.
The little three -year -old in the back was decapitated.
The boyfriend in the front was killed on impact
as well. And the mother had survived. And when
we got there, the engine had already thrown a
blanket over the body in the back. And so we
kind of, you know, there was nothing to do. The
one woman was transported and then the other
two were deceased. So I think we removed one.
I can't remember if we got the boyfriend out
or not, but the little girl was trapped. So they
told us, go back to the station when the coroner's
ready, they'll call us back. And myself and my
partner were very new. I think we'd only been
there, I don't know, we probably had like two,
three years on the job, that was it. And we got
the tone to go extricate the child. And my captain
turned to me and said, you guys stay here. And
I actually had a little boy that was about two
at the time. I take that back, about a year and
change at the time. And he said, you're going
to see enough horrible stuff in your career.
You don't need to add this one to your list.
And he was getting ready to retire not too long
after that. But I never forgot that. And it really
resonated with me that there is no badge of honor
of seeing the most horrible shit. And that's
what we think when you're young, fired up, whatever,
please fire EMS. But as you said, they accumulate.
And so conversely, I had one, ironically, my
last shift of my second last apartment where
a homeless woman had gone missing. And she was
deep in the woods. You could kind of smell way
before you got there. And I got the ability to
tell them, all right, don't come. I'll just go
see this one. And as a medic, I'll tell you.
clearly call it i mean she was just hanging from
a tree bits of her hanging from a tree um but
yeah but just like you said it's so important
especially if there are you know younger first
responders listening to this if your leaders
in the fire service if they do not have to see
it don't show them there's nothing to be gained
for adding yet another photo to that that mental
collection If you ever want to know what a good
leader is, that's a good leader right there.
A hundred percent. Yeah. That is like looking
out for your own with young kids that you don't,
and his perfect sentence was, you'll see enough
in your lifetime. You don't need to see this.
Right. But yeah, it's you, you accumulate that
trauma over the years and you just compact it
away, compact it away, compact it away. And it
will revisit you. I'm not dumb to the fact that
these things don't come back and, you know, but
it's like the more. that your family is around
you or your friendship and the things that you
can do. It's like a lot of guys do retire. And
what do they tell you? They don't ever want to
work again. So what do they do? They just sit
down and they watch TV. They don't do anything.
And they got their dream home, but they don't
go outside. They don't do anything. Not everybody,
but I mean, do something, man. You know, because
that just keeps that brain active. And I think
it helps. And I'm not an expert at it, you know.
And I was asked by a medical doctor if I had
PTSD. And I said, I don't know. I honest to God,
I don't know if I do. And TBI, I said, I probably
have TBI from all the explosive concussions that
I've taken over the years from SWAT and the army.
But I don't know how it affects me. And there's
a test that I want to go do here in Texas that
they can test you for TBI. And so I want to get
that tested just so I know. ptsd i don't know
i just and it's not afraid to get tested for
it i just i just i think i'm the way i'm living
my life now i'm pretty healthy mentally so you
know i think i'm good for right now i think when
this conversation really first started gaining
traction probably about 10 years ago now we were
all calling everything PTSD. And what's nice
is that you've seen this evolution. And of course,
don't get me wrong, there are experts in their
field that were talking the right way, way before,
but we were all white belts in this world initially.
But now, you know, you've got operator syndrome,
you've got TBIs, you've got CTE, you've got,
you know, moral injury, you've got true PTSD.
And so, you know, there are all these different
kind of nuances to what we're going through.
And I think if you look at true PTSD, that is
the trigger, that is the car backfiring and you're
under a table. I mean, the night terrors, all
those things, that's, you know, bona fide PTSD.
But then you've got moral injury, which is the
inability to save and organizational betrayal
and all these other things that contribute to
us struggling. But I think where I'm at now,
because it's the same kind of thing, I really...
don't have anything that haunts me and again
the question is why and i reflect to all the
good things in my upbringing that kind of offset
but it's like but yeah am i operating at an optimal
level and no i'm not you know brain fog fatigue
some other things and i did combat sports most
of my life you know got punched and kicked in
the head a lot sleep deprivation um so now i've
kind of turned it around well well if i optimize
if i go um you know do some of these therapies
It's only going to help regardless of what you
call the thing. Now, if you're really being plagued
by it and you're drinking yourself to sleep and
that's a whole different conversation. But for
everyone else, why not just try some of these
anyway and see if you can just turn the dial
up a little bit more. There's nothing to be lost
in improving your performance. Yeah, I agree.
And who's to say what will work for you, what
won't work for you, you know. And who am I to
say that, no, don't go do that. Why would you
say that to somebody if they're willing to try
to get their health better? You know what I mean?
And so sleep deprivation is probably, I think,
the number one thing for like fire and law enforcement
that are on call -out status. Being woken up
in the middle of the night constantly from the
phone, the pager, it weighs on you. It weighs
on you. And you do it for so long. The number
one thing after I retired, the number one thing
that I noticed, As I was able to sleep through
the night and it was awesome. It was awesome
because we were tied on SWAT. We were tied to
our phones. We were, I was on that phone so much.
And as a team leader, you have various different
roles, but you get a lot of phone calls and stuff
and you're calling the sergeants and stuff like
that. But after I let that phone go, when I retired,
there was just like a huge, like the cord was
just cut. And it didn't, it wasn't like I didn't
know what to do. I knew what to do, but I was
able to, and I woke and I told my wife, I was
like, man, this is pretty nice. I can sleep through
the night. This is great. You're not getting
woken up anymore. It's not like a shock of, I
mean, cause you come up, you're 10 toes up and
you're just dead to sleep to, you just got somebody
that's just been shot and killed and the, and
the suspects on the run and you're trying to
coordinate, get dressed and you're on your radio
and on your phone. And you just woke up 30 seconds
ago. And then you turn your lights and sirens
on and you're going and you learn how to manage
that after time. When you're brand new, the analogy
is you're looking through a straw. The more you
do it, you start broadening your vision out and
then you can start multitasking a little bit
better. And a lot of people are like, aren't
you, doesn't this mess with you at that time?
No, it didn't because you knew how to manage
it and you knew what to do within those certain
segments of. getting up and organizing and moving
towards the target, you know? So, uh, yeah, but
sleep is a big thing. Huge, huge, huge, huge.
Even for like, if you go and you work out, like
people taking hormone therapy to get stronger
and I'll make, that's great. But if your recovery
is not there, it's not going to help you. So
the sleep just, it benefits everybody, you know?
It's so crazy. And obviously the fire service,
I mean, their hours are just insane at the moment.
We've got this recruitment crisis, which I know
law enforcement does too. And you've got in the
standard work week is 56. So now you add mandatory
overtime, that's immediately 80 hours. And then,
you know, a lot of places even worse. And you
take a step back and go, so the people that make
my coffee tap out at 40 hours a week, but the
people I call on my family's worst day to make
life -saving decisions and have life -saving
athleticism. I'm okay with them working two civilian
weeks a week. It's absolute insanity and it's
so backwards. But our profession is so kind of
brainwashed that even when you bring that to
them, they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, that's
not a thing because they're so sleep deprived.
They can't even critically think and self -assess
to the point, you know, why is my favorite NFL
wide receiver getting all the sleep in the world?
But I'm going to wake up at 3 a .m., jump in
the back of a tiller truck, drive to a fire,
go into a third story window and try and search
for a child. And I'm working eight hours a week.
It's pure insanity. And a lot of people that
make those decisions now, they don't jump on
the fire truck and go into the fire. Nope. They
don't do that. And so at that level, and I saw
it in law enforcement, in positions, they are
there strictly to mitigate anything coming in
at them to make their career path smooth. So
they, nope, don't do that. Well, we need this
to do that. No, don't, don't cause any bumps.
Don't cause any waves. Well, how do you get better?
You know, we did very well and we had some very
large fights to bring on new capabilities like
on our team. And it was met with, nope, it was
met with laughter. And then once we did it, everybody
wants to join in. Because it was successful.
But you have to make it successful. And we had
some good guys on our team that made stuff very
successful. Very successful. If my memory serves
me right, when we spoke on The Collective, I
think you talked about some of the technology
at the end of the career that you fought for,
like drones and things like that. So talk to
me about these good ideas from the ground and
how were you able to make it happen in your department?
We had a guy that was on our team that was in
the Navy. He had gotten deployed and he was working
with JSOC. He came back, you know, and he was
just sitting there having coffee with us. He
goes, I don't know why every law enforcement
SWAT team in America doesn't have drones because
he's looking at mitigation of risk, right? I'm
like, oh, well, we have technology already. We
have robots that go inside of a house, you know?
And so we kind of talked about it, talked about
it, and it just started gaining more. and there
was a team that was in our county. It was comprised
of seven different agencies. They had gotten
drones. Well, we were looking for a shooter off
a freeway one day. So who did we call? The drone.
Because why stick your guys in the woods into
a gunfight, right? And so we all had canines
on our SWAT team. And so we kept utilizing their
drone. And we're like, man, this is... Dumb.
Why don't we get our own program? They've got
it figured out, right? And so when you do stuff
like that, you don't have to create your own
SOPs. You can borrow other people's SOPs and
create your name on it. And people know that
and they share it, right? So we started building
our methodology to technology, dog, person. to
minimize the risk to us going inside of a house,
right? And so we would look at not just one situation
and go, guns up, boys, let's go. We're going
in. We don't need to go in. Don't go in. So we
did vehicle takeoffs, right? We called them MAT
teams, Mobile Arrest Teams. We would just get
a pattern of life on the guy and we'd sit on
him. When he would leave, we'd take control of
him in the vehicle and we'd wreck him. We were
highly successful in those MAT takedowns. highly
successful. And so it got to a point where we
drafted up a memo and it went up to the chief
and chief brought it to the sheriff and got kind
of scolded by the sheriff. And then it was kind
of a joking thing on a team that I, I will talk
to anyone. I don't care who you are. I give you
respect and I'm tactful, but I'm not fearful
of talking to anyone. And I've talked to very
high end people. And so the sergeant was like,
you know, I'm I hate to say this, but it's going
to take someone like Sprout. That's my nickname.
Someone like Sprout to go just talk to the sheriff.
So we were doing a detail, a protection detail
for the sheriff one day. And I just walked up
to her and I said, you got five minutes? She
goes, yeah, what do you got? And I literally
just laid it on her about drones. And I said,
we're not asking for anything different. It's
the same technology. We have to have a warrant
before we go in. We're not going to send it in
without. We're doing it right now. The only thing
a drone offers us. Our technology is getting
tied up in laundry baskets and clothing on the
ground. This sets us up about four feet off the
ground. The only thing that's going to stop us
is a closed door. I like it. Set up the meeting.
And then we got them. You know, there's a hundred
people that will tell you no, right? But if you
revisit it, 98 of them still might say no, but
two of them might go, hmm, all you need is that
one person. You just need one person. And sometimes
it is who it comes from, you know. If I have
a disdain for you and I don't like you, whatever
idea you come with me, I'm going to shoot down.
But Mike, I like him. He comes in with this verbatim,
the same thing that you have and I'll take hit.
You see what I'm saying? And so human nature.
And so, but we never tried to, we never played
like politics. We, everything was factually driven.
It's like we built a huge maritime program, fast
roping out of helicopters, shooting out of helicopters,
all built. from two guys on our SWAT team. And
then the team joined in and rebuilt it even more
and then got better and then got better. And
then we, it's a huge capability that we have.
And so we started fast tripping under underway
vessels, opposed boardings. We got equipment,
we got boats, we got everything grant driven
from us. We got a lot of money to the department
through grants that benefited a lot of departments.
individual departments within the agency. And
so you just, you got to find someone, someone,
we were doing this maritime stuff and I'll give
you an example of our risk management contacted
me and said, Hey, we've been doing this and we're
not covered insurance wise. And I went to my
buddy and I was like, Oh my gosh, I never even
thought of that. Cause we're just deputies, right?
I'm like, I've never thought of that. Like, Oh,
so they told me we're going to, we're going to
purchase another addendum worth a million dollars
while you guys do these exercises. And I'm like,
I can't give the okay for that. I'm just a deputy.
The sheriff cornered me one day and he goes,
I don't know how you got them to write off on
that, but good on you. Because what I did though,
is I brought them out onto a boat that we were
going to fast rope onto. And I sat them down
and literally, and I'm not joking. Probably 15
feet above their head was a Blackhawk helicopter
throwing ropes out and our guys sliding down.
And they just thought that was the coolest thing.
But what I did to them is I said, you're on land
and you call 911. How confident you feel a cop
will show up? I'm like, oh, yeah. Now you're
on a ferry. Washington State has the largest
ferry system in the nation. Now you're on a ferry
and you call 911. And they went, I don't know.
I go. I didn't say me. I didn't say my buddy.
I didn't say SWAT. I said, King County figured
out a way to get to you and to stop it. And you
would have thought I just invented like the apple
seed or something. You know what I mean? They
just thought that was the neatest thing. And
so you gotta, it depends on how you deliver it
to people too. Cause if I come up there, if just
to kind of a bravado, like we need to do this,
why? Just because we need to do this, that, that
stuff doesn't, you're trying to build a capability.
So sell it for what it's worth and give them.
what you can and be professional about it. And
then, you know, everyone loves cool stuff, everyone,
guys and girls. And so when I brought them out
on the boat, they just, they still to this day,
they talk about it. They loved it, you know?
So it's how you deliver things to, to get what
you want. Well, back to what you were talking
about, as far as borrowing the neighboring organizations,
SOPs, this is what I'm seeing. Because obviously
the changing the firefighter work week is not
sexy. There's no Black Hawk helicopters to show
people. It's just getting to understand the proactive
nature of rest and recovery and health and performance.
But the organizations that have gone to it, the
departments that have gone to it now, I've watched
them bend over backwards to share, to help other
departments, you know, to say, this is what we
did. You're slightly different, so you'll have
to adapt to this way. But here's all the tools
that we use. Here's how we presented it to our
city, to our county. Here's where the hurdles
were. Here's how we got around it. And it's so
beautiful to watch because the opposite side
of that conversation is the union president,
fire chief, city or county council members, whoever
the barriers are, that as you said, well, I go
home at five on a Friday, so I really don't care,
which I think is nauseating to me personally.
that these people are making this sacrifice and
away from their families and you won't even fight
for them. But the rising tide lifts all ships.
Where you do see the real leaders in these organizations,
it's incredible watching that true brotherhood
and sisterhood, the humility to ask, hey, how
are you doing this? And the humility to say,
well, we will share it. We want you, other departments,
to get better as well. And I think that is how
we change our professions for the better. Yeah.
I mean, you don't want to give the keys away
to your castle that you've built. Don't get me
wrong. But we cross shared a bunch. There's a
there's a large, pretty large school that a lot
of SWAT guys go to in Arkansas. And it's a great
school. And there's a little talk group that
they formed all the graduates from the school.
And you get on there and it's like, hey, we're
trying to get Nod's night vision goggles on our
team. Can somebody tell me how they approach
their admin? And someone will jump in and says,
hey, DM me. I'll give you everything I have.
I mean, this cross -sharing is a beautiful thing
because you do. You want other people to succeed
at what you're doing and what you've done. And
it's only for the better. And so there will be
things that a department does that we're like,
no, I don't want to do it that way. When we first
started shooting out of the helicopter. I went
to San Bernardino County Sheriff's Office and
asked them for their SOP. And I took that SOP
as a, as a boiler point and we started ours,
you know? And so people have taken, I've, I've
given out our SOPs to Alaska, you know? And so
there's nothing that's detrimental in there.
Nothing that's going to give the keys away to
your castle, but cross -sharing to help other
teams build something. Oh, absolutely. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. You know, why wouldn't you? No, exactly.
Exactly. I think that's it. It's humility. And
I think this is the problem that I discovered
really when I was transitioning out is how siloed
law enforcement fire really are. And you look
at, you know, you've got, it's insane. I watched
it with Orange County in Orlando. You've got
these departments that won't even. play with
each other, won't talk to each other. You've
got FD and PD that don't like each other in other
areas. And it's like, how did this even happen?
But again, this is egos. It's all it is because
I have stood by a trailer park on a rescue, on
a fire ambulance, watching a transformer start
a fire in a trailer park. asking my dispatch
just to send the closest unit and they're going
back and forth saying whose jurisdiction it is.
I can see Orlando's fire engine from where I'm
standing. Just send the fucking fire engine to
come put the fire out. But this is a danger when
you get egos involved and we miss the mission.
The mission is to protect lives, to save lives.
And ego is that, well, our department's better
than yours. Well, shame on you. How come you're
not helping elevate that department, if that
really is the case, so that you're all on the
same page? So no matter where your family have
their emergency, all those EMS, fire, and law
enforcement agencies are prepared for that emergency.
Absolutely. We cross -shared with our fire guys
pretty good. We all love to joke, right? They
have the best schedule in the world. They love
chili, right? They love ice cream. But we started
a rescue task force in our county, our team sergeant
at the time with some paramedics, and it spread
like wildfire. And man, there was so much pushback.
We are not going to send medics or fire guys
into a school shooting when the shooter is still
actively in there. And we brought it all the
way back to what is our job? To stop the threat
and save lives. So if I can bring a protection
detail in with you to start triaging why a hundred
teams are out already looking for a suspect to
eliminate the suspect, you know, and that built
that up pretty good. And we would do. So when
you guys have like a burn house for training,
we would come in and do like explosive breaching
on it, or we do some clearing. So we would cross
share homes back and forth between fire. One
of the, one of the coolest breaching techniques
I've ever learned. And I hate to say this, but
I learned from a firefighter and it's, it's,
you could get into a door. It's a specific door,
like a gymnasium outward opening metal door with
a breaker bar on it. And you're on the outside
and all you've got is the hand. You can't. You
don't, instead of prying it and trying to pry
it, but your metal beam, your center beam is
metal. And then your frame is encased into concrete.
So he showed me a trick with a chainsaw, just
a chainsaw, how to get in and hit the breaker
bar. I was like, man, and that gets you in so
quick. So I give credit to the fire guys. Like,
and we were all hazmat techs on our team. We
had to go through the 40 hour hazmat tech. So
we all had SCBAs, lion suits. And so. We did
a lot of stuff. We did some control burns with,
or training burns up with the fire department.
They put us on the nozzles and stuff like that.
And it just, we were with Seattle fire and you
know, we didn't work a lot with Seattle fire,
but when I talked to those guys there, they were
absolutely for it. And it kind of shocked me.
I didn't think that they would be for it. They
even let me drive their tiller truck. I got in
the back and I got to drive that thing. So it
was pretty cool with the mindset of like, yeah,
man. Let's go in there and save lives and put
the fire out. And if you're here and there's
a shooter in there still shooting at us, we can't
get to the fire. So we're going to put a, a detached
nozzle. I don't even know what it's called onto
your armored truck. So you could get up there
and you can start hitting that with, you know,
where it needs to be. And then maybe take care
of the, so people kind of let's solve, let's
solve the problem together. Let's not fight against
each other to try to solve a problem that doesn't
really solve anything. You know what I mean?
So, but it's a lot of, hitting your head on concrete.
And it's never from the lower guys like you and
I. We're like, that's cool. We're like, yeah,
that's cool. Let's do this. Once you get to above
in that admin stage, it's like, oh, no, I don't
think so. And you hear all the why you can't
and I don't knows. And then they just ghost you
and they won't get back to you. And so, but like
me, I'll email you every week until you get mad
at me, you know? So, yeah. With the SWAT medic
program, I've seen various different kind of
models. And to me, the medic that's not put through
the law enforcement side, so therefore can't
carry a sidearm, and therefore is almost in a
very warm area in that scenario, didn't make
perfect sense to me. It seemed like if you're
going to put them in, of course, the medic isn't
kicking the door in, you know, and point man
or anything. to have the ability to have a weapon
even though you're there functioning as a medical
capability to me seemed to make the most sense
of all the different models which one did you
guys have and and was that the ideal one in your
eyes no it wasn't it was uh your job is to save
lives my job is to protect you and so one task
one guy you know and so we left it with that
and the paramedics that went in on the art the
rescue task force they were not armed they would
have vests right? Extra with plates and stuff.
And so, we worked alongside, we worked alongside
our paramedics where we were able to bring canines
and paramedics onto a opposed boarding on a maritime
situation. And so, because we brought on all
the shooters and the breachers, but we didn't
have any canines. So we learned a way to get
canines. I learned that from the Canadians up
there going to that week -long school I went
to. And then we also built into like, well, when
we're here, there's people that are injured.
Shouldn't we be fast roping paramedics in with
us so they can triage these people? And so they
had a very specific task to do and we had a very
specific task to do. And so we just came up with
the rescue task force where they would do the
triage and we would protect them. so they're
not trying to use their firearm but treat a patient
you know i mean they're going back and forth
well this wasn't this wasn't by any means in
engaging the shooter unless everything went to
shit and now you're not unarmed in the worst
case scenario right and so but we're never going
to leave you alone where you're in a position
where you may have to fight we'll fight for you
is what we came up with um and so it ran pretty
good and there are some smaller teams that have
their paramedics that go through a, a qualification
course to carry a firearm. I don't see any problem
with that. Right. As long as they know their
primary role. And there's other ones that their
admin or absolutely won't let them carry a gun,
you know, so they may want to carry a gun, but
their admin won't let them. And so, but I would
say whoever saves the victim and kills the shooter
and gets out and everyone's alive has a good
program. You know what I mean? So. You can do
it both ways. Well, speaking of that, before
we kind of transition to CrossFit, when you again
look back now, I mean, we've had decades now
of this horrendous issue with so many murders
in our schools. What, in your opinion, is the
best model as far as the prevention side and
then any takeaways as far as the responding units?
Well, I'll tell you the prevention right now
that I've preached my whole career. You put a
cop in every single school and you publicize
it. People do not go to hard targets and try
to fight because they know there's opposition
there. If you look at all of our celebrities,
if you look at all of our governmental officials,
what do they have around them? Security, right?
And so you have your one -offs, you have your
attempts on your assassinations of your presidents
and stuff like that. So, but they're very far
few in between. But if you... Are someone that
wants to do ill and you want easy targets, you
will walk into a school, you will walk into a
church, you will walk into a preschool because
you know nobody will oppose you. Once you know
that someone is going to oppose you and offer
a fight against you, you will second guess your
target. And that's what it is. So I've always
said, put your money where your mouth is. Put
a cop in every single school in the U .S. Every
single school. Pay for it, but publicize it.
Watch your shootings go way down, like way down.
But it always comes back to money. It always
comes back to money. And so some schools are
very large where they would need like maybe two
officers. But and then they gave us this bad
plague. We don't want cops in schools. Like we've
allowed people to think that cops are bad. And
this whole in 2020, 2021. put this false narrative
out that we're just out randomly shooting and
killing people for just funds and giggles. And
it's not true. And everyone knew it wasn't true.
And they had the stats are there, but no one
would ever look at the stats through the FBI
that they carried because they knew what it showed.
So they went based off feeling, and then they
allowed other generations to be raised up into
this. Oh, I just hate cops. Why? Cops are human.
They do, they do things that are not right. If
you go to another cop and say, Hey, This guy
just committed a felony. You're going to stick
by him, right? Thin blue line. No, you don't
get to be a cop and commit a crime, dude. Expect
me to protect you. We've had those discussions
many times through my career with guys I've worked
with. I am not going to ruin my career for something
that you do. And I'm not going to lie for you.
So don't do it. But it doesn't mean that I'm
not going to back you and do everything we need
to do. But you don't get to commit a crime and
then ask me to like lie for you. or ask me to
not say something. I've seen guys lose their
job over taking $20 from a traffic stop out of
a guy's wallet. And another cop knew it, but
he said nothing about it and said, oh, I don't,
I didn't know. Well, they fired him. Like you
just lost your job for some dude's dumb decision.
And so should he be fired for taking money from
somebody? Yeah. We've had, we've had millions
of dollars laid out in front of us. and drugs
and kilos. And that's just the nice thing about
where I came from and how I was raised is my
dad always told me, it doesn't bother me. It's
not my money. You know, I never, because you'll
arrest some people and they'll be like, come
on, man, you've been tempted. Come on, you've
been tempted. I'm like, no, I haven't. It's not
my money. What would I do with a kilo of cocaine?
You could sell it. Like, no, I couldn't. I'm
not, you know what I mean? Yeah, you know what
I mean? It's just like this fantasy. They watch
too much TV. And if you watch TV, you know, all
the cops, now cops do do bad things because they're
human, but they need to be weeded out just like
any, like doctors or lawyers or anything else
that do things that are unethical, you know?
But yeah, crazy. What about, because you had
quite a unique lens as far as the part of the
country that seemed to be very deeply entrenched
in the defund pushback of that era. What did
you see with your own eyes or hear from your
men and women as far as the negative impact of
that anti -cop movement that we had? Well, you
see crime rates shoot up. Other people go in
to get hurt and victims that don't need to be
because of that. So that just caused a certain
amount of crimes to go up. And the data is there
and it shows that it went up. And politician
A will get in front of a camera and say, no,
no, no, no, they're down because they'll twist
stats and stuff like that. But no, they're up.
And we all knew they were up and we all knew
what was going to happen when they did this.
But then, you know, it's hard for you to go out
every day and think you're doing something for
the betterment of good. All to go home and hear
someone from your admin or someone from your
county talk down on you, you know. And I don't
care how strong you are, that eats your soul
a little bit when you turn on the news and just
see the compounding effect on law enforcement.
And then they play race against race, you know,
this, and then they do this tit for tat. They
never listen or they never list like what the
crime was. They just play that this guy looked
like this and this guy looked like this. And
then they leave that alone and they know what
they're doing. They're causing controversy. And
then they, this extremism, right, that we talked
about earlier and people attached to that. The
people that do nothing sit at home and they're
just like, yeah, yeah, those cops are bad. You
know what I mean? So it's like, I've told many
people that I've had many discussions with people
on the street in downtown Seattle, in the hood.
And I tell them, have you ever done a ride along
with a cop? I said, you should. You should go
do a ride along with a cop. Don't expect anything
from it. Just go do a ride along. You can do
a couple hours, four hours, you know, and then
come back and talk to me. But see, when you make
them come up with a little bit of ownership,
they don't want to do that. They just rather
just talk off emotion. So the people that talk
off emotion, I just don't have time for you because
you're not willing to get to a betterment solution
or have another way of solving something. You
see what I'm saying? everyone's different. Everyone's
got their own little voice. Everyone wants to
get heard. And some people just want to yell
at you, you know, and then they feel better about
themselves and they go home and eat zucchini
or whatever they eat. I don't know. You know,
uh, uh, we had a, we had, we, where we were at
in the County where I was at it, we had backwoods
guys, uh, residents to inner city residents.
So you had contrasting with even within the County.
And so you could be talking to some backwoods
redneck. And I don't mean that in a bad term
because I like rednecks and, or, you know, and
then you go back in the inner city and you got
somebody as a part of the gang member that's
in the inner city, you know, and how do you,
how are you able to communicate between the two
of them? You know? So, yeah. I remember the second
last apartment I worked for neighboring, like
almost buttoned up with each other was just like
you were talking about, you know, very, very
kind of, impoverished trailer park uh you know
country very white area and then that butted
up against um another area that was very very
densely populated especially with people with
haitian backgrounds and so very similar kind
of activity in different ways and it is irrelevant
of their skin color what the issue was was poverty
Both groups were poor, and so therefore you saw
similar behaviors. But you didn't see that conversation
in post -2020, in the pro or cons, addressing
underlying mental health issues and poverty and
education and trying to stop the domino effect
of trauma so that we can start bringing cohesion
back into households again. None of that. I will
tell you, from the people that I've talked to
on the streets, more people believed and understood
and agreed with what we were doing. Than what
you would see on TV. I'm sure, you know? Yeah.
A hundred percent. All right. Well, we're pivoting
now to a different topic. I came across CrossFit
in about 2006. So kind of early before it was
cool, as they say with one of my, my friends,
Neil, who was an Anaheim firefighter, he worked
at a CrossFit Marina in Huntington beach. And
so he came back and he had this like. cannonball
with a handle like for elderly pirates and some
other things and we're like what the fuck is
all this and you know so we yeah i'll try your
stupid workout and at the end i was like all
right i need to do this this was absolutely awful
and i was sold and and all the way through to
about two years ago we shifted our programming
a little bit i saw the the incredible benefits
for my profession and the crossfit training so
how did you come across that particular kind
of modality and then talk to me about how much
it impacted your life we uh were talking and
it was uh hey these navy seal guys are doing
this uh thing called crossfit it's out of california
um i don't know so we looked up a CrossFit gym
and it was the, I think it's now it's the oldest
affiliate in the world. It's out of Puyallup,
Washington. Rainier CrossFit. We joined Rainier
CrossFit and it was $50 a month. And we were
like, oh my gosh, this is so expensive. And that
was 2005. And so we did the workouts and it just
blew me away. I'd never done anything like it.
And some things like farmer's carries, like what
you, you know, like farm strength or farm, you
do stuff on the ranch and stuff like that. But
it's like the cleans and all this stuff and combining
it with the deadlifts and stuff like that. It
was crazy. And then we just kept going back and
doing it. And then we were doing two workouts
in a day. And that about killed me. But it was
very, very, very functional for what we did on
SWAT. And I did it. We joined because of SWAT.
And so. My daughters were seven and nine and
I got them involved in it to do just like body
weight movement and stuff like that. And as they
grew up, we just started adding more weight.
We did a lot of research on body development
for young kids, lifting weights, which there
was this old brain that you couldn't do it and
it was all quashed. And they got into it enough
where I think it was 14. My daughter did her
first competition in Houston, Texas, and then
they started competing after that. And so we've
been off and running and they've been, they worked
great for my job and they just got into the competitive
side of it. And it, I mean, they just, we're
training, you know, two or three times a day
now for them. So. How old are they now? 21 and
19. And so they do the CrossFit Open every year.
And we're looking for measurement skills. We're
looking for measurement of you're better than
you were last year. Each year has to be better
than last year or something's wrong. And then
they'll do, we're flying to Spokane, Washington,
the beginning of January to do a comp. James
Sprague is putting on competition there. He's
a CrossFit Games athlete. He won the games in
2024, but we've known him. We've worked out with
him before. And then come back from there, and
then we go to just outside of Austin, Texas,
the end of January for another big competition.
And then they made Team USA five years ago. And
so we've been to Sweden, Norway, Mexico, Canada,
Budapest, and they've competed in the IF3 Worlds
there. And we didn't go this year because of
logistics. The whole team didn't go. And so we're
going to go next year. And I don't know where
it's going to be at yet, though. What really
became apparent to me when I moved to America
is how many Uncle Ricos I met. And what I mean
is, you know, men in their late 20s, early 30s.
And it was always this I could have, would have,
should have if it wasn't for my ACL, my labrum,
insert destroyed joint here. And I started going,
well, what the hell are we doing to children
in this country? You know, because where I grew
up, the era I grew up, at least no one was playing
at a high, high level unless they were being
farmed to be, you know, the England football
team or the best athletes obviously would just
rise to the top and then they would be, you know,
trying out for these teams and off they go. But
the rest of us were just playing. And so there
was no steep drop off between graduate and school.
And the rest of adulthood, we just kept playing,
you know, pub leagues or just, you know, kicking
the ball around the park or, you know, whatever
it was. And what I realized is that there was
this kind of dark side of American sports where
the performance of a child was more important
than the health and longevity of a child. So
if, you know, talk to me if you have any kind
of perspective of that at all in this world,
and then how were you able to avoid that through
this incremental training that you've used with
your daughters? I guess better described on how
I just raised my kids. And so I have done things
in my life that I'm very proud of. I do not need
to relive my life in front of my own kids because
they were part of what I've done. And so I've
always said, be proud of what you've done and
who you are. Once you've met that mark, then
you build others to be what they need to be.
And so, like I said earlier, with the kids growing
into a family, that's their first team. My wife
played college ball soccer competitively. She
got recruited to a college and then she played,
you know, high school select soccer is what they
call it. And so, we put three things on a piece
of paper when I talked to my daughters. Probably,
they were probably 10. and 12 and we said they
wrote down the three things that they want to
do in life soccer crossfit and horses and i said
now prioritize them and they both put crossfit
as number one the reason i started them in crossfit
was to build their hips and knee joints and ligaments
to strengthen them for soccer because they were
both playing soccer and so my wife has had three
knee surgeries um and so they put crossfit as
number one so what we did is we took what they
said they wanted And we started going with it.
And then we started training. And then we started
doing competitions. And then it just kind of
grew from there. This whole time, it's kind of
a running joke. I'll go in the gym, and I always
get the dudes. They're like, hey, man, you let
your daughters outlift you. I said, they can't
outlift me. They're 19 and 21. I cannot back
squat with my 21 -year -old daughter back squats.
I'm sorry. I don't need to tell them I've had
21 surgeries or anything like that. I just, it
doesn't bother me. And so everyone thinks I'm
being put down by my own daughters. I'm like,
and I always tell them, I'm like, how do you
think they got that way? Who do you think built
them to be like that? I did, you know. But I
don't need to thrust upon them of what I have
done. Now, I use my experience as examples when
we're training and building them up to do something,
right? How to overcome something and things that
I've gone through. They just stayed with it.
They picked it. They said they wanted it. So
they showed ownership to it. And then we just
stayed on it. And then as things progress, they
say, Hey, I want to compete here. Hey, I want
to do here. And I've told them all along, you
could quit CrossFit at any time. I don't care,
but you need to pick something else and stay
with that. You know? So there was kind of a,
there was kind of priorities that we had in our
household is Priority number one is family comes
first. Respectful and family will always come
first. Number two, do good in school. Number
three, whatever you do, I don't care what it
is, don't quit. Give 100 % towards it. And so
they just kind of got into that, and we got approached
for the Team USA IF3 World stuff, started doing
that, started traveling with that, and then these
higher -end competitions, and we're still pushing
the envelope on that. Because there's a ton of
people that are still stronger and faster and
better than you. But we look at measurement tools
of growth each year. And if, like I said, if
we get better each year, there's growth there.
Now I look at the measured growth. If it's too
small, we need to jump it up a little bit. But
what we didn't do is we didn't put them on such
a mental regimen of you need to be up at 5 a
.m. your first workout. Then you come and eat
broccoli and chicken and you go back out and
you're taking that. What happens is. You can
become a phenom and you will be the head of everybody.
And you can be a podium stander for multiple
times, but it won't last long. And we've watched
many people over the years quit the sport. And
it's not because of their physical attributes,
but it's because of their mental attributes.
They just couldn't keep that regimen up because
it weighs heavy on the brain. So we said, hey,
we'll take longer to get there, but we're going
to let your mind rest a little bit. And so they
eat what they want. Everyone thinks we're on
a diet. We don't diet. They eat what they want,
but they're very selective. Those girls will
not eat fast food, will not do it. We'll be starving
on the drive somewhere and they will not stop.
You know what I mean? They just won't do it.
So they know what to eat. They look at more macros
than the macros that they have. They take their
supplement protein, creatine and stuff. Other
than that, everything's natural. We don't do
anything. It's just the creatine and the protein
for them. And then the training and then their
sleep. And so we travel. We'd go to one or two
countries every single year with them. And so
it lets them see the world, enjoy, you know,
and they eat what they want when they're over
there and stuff, but they know what they have
to do. So you're going to take a little bit longer
to get where you want to go. But besides all
that, and if they ever, never make it to the
CrossFit Games and they never make it on the
podium, what you've just done is you've built
an awesome human being in the process. And so
my thing is that through strength, you will build
compassion. And once they're both phenomenal
coaches, so they coach. We got down here in Texas
and they're trying to work with athletes down
here, primarily focusing now more towards like
rodeo athletes, because when I rodeoed, you just
kind of cowboyed up and just rode and sucked
up the pain. Now they realize the healthier the
body is in the mind, their turn, their longevity
in the sport goes longer minus a catastrophic
injury. Right. So. They're going to be offering
up to some bull riders, and they've already given
their cards out to guys that ride bulls and rough
stock. And they think just stretching and doing
some jumping jacks is okay. What these girls
know now, and they're both coaches through CrossFit
and Olympic weightlifting coaches, it's in their
mobility. Man, if I knew what they knew when
I was their age, it'd be a different ballgame
for me. Totally different ballgame. But yeah,
so. How are you able to pull on the reins a little
bit if ever a situation arises where it seems
that they're trying to push the envelope too
much on lifts or something like that? So, you
know, when you really, really, really want something.
So let's just, I'll just pick a clean, right?
And let's say you're going for a 225 pound clean.
Okay. And you've built your way up to it and
you try to get that clean and something's not
right. Your techniques offer something you're
pulling all the way through or something. You're
like, okay, you debrief what needs to be done
and you go back over and they try it again. I'll
get about that third try. You start, I have explained
to him like, Hey, we could sit here all day.
I can watch you fail that all day long. What
better are you going to leave, leave in the gym?
So here's what you do. You drop that five pounds,
you hit a 220, you go away, not 100 % pleased,
but you're about 80 % pleased. And so not every
day that you're in the gym is glorious. It's
just not. It affects everybody. And so I don't,
we've never had too many battles on that. On
certain things growing up, you know, it's hard.
What I've had to struggle with is like, hey,
we need to go a little bit faster. And their
fear of pushing their body faster because they
know they're going to get fatigued and that felt
fatigue on the body and they don't like it. And
so fighting what everyone has to fight, right?
If I tell you to walk a mile with a farmer carry,
at some point in that mile, you're going to set
those things, the weights down. But how do you
overcome that felt fatigue mentally and keep
going, right? And so trying to get them to understand
that don't be fearful of it, learn how to manage
it. Sometimes to go faster, but we have pretty
good conversations, but we have very direct conversations.
And so, if people overhear us in the gym talking,
I talk to my girls like grown adults, and I always
have. People are like, whoa, he is intense. And
some people think, oh, he's living vicariously
through his own daughters. That's what he's doing.
And he's trying to project. No, I'm not. They
told me what they wanted, and I'm holding them
accountable for what they want. They wanted it.
But it's not anything detrimental. No one sees
the hugs and the kisses and I loves you's at
home. They only see a five second integration
of me talking to the girls, telling them truthfully,
yeah, you sucked. But it's the same thing that
I tell myself, right? And so it's not hurtful
in any way. But yeah, so we, truth, direct communication,
and then we just take things as they come, you
know, in the gym. What is your perspective on
law enforcement or first responder fitness standards
or lack thereof in a profession where lives are
at stake? I think it's horrible because that's
one of the things that you have to make sure
that you're physically fit. You can watch a video
right now and you can watch a cop being so fatiguely
out of shape that the suspect either gets away
or gets their gun. And it's like, what? But we've
pushed so much of a not a kind of a warrior's
ethos on law enforcement. And it's more of a
softer guardian ethos. Well, what happens is
you bring more weaker mindset and people are
like, oh, it just won't happen. It won't happen.
It won't happen. What two o 'clock in the morning
in the hood, it's very different than day shift
in the upscaled neighborhoods where the Starbucks
are. You know, when you come face to face and
someone's sizing you up that's been to prison
before, they don't care. They don't care that
you're a male or female. You know what I mean?
But again, that's how you communicate with people.
I think that that standard is a must. I just
do. There's a lot of departments that don't have
it because they know what will happen. People
won't pass it. And so like the state I came out
of, Washington, they've lowered their standard
where you don't even run anymore. You don't have
to run to get in the academy. So what do you
think happens? So a lot more overweight people
are getting in to become law enforcement officers.
And that's not me picking fun on anybody. It's
like looking at their graduation photographs
time and time again. And so are you going to
have to run? Yeah, I ran many times as a cop.
You know what I mean? So there's damn flies in
my face over here. You know, I wish they would.
I wish more departments would be more proactive
in doing it. But sadly, they're not because they
know what will happen. The numbers will deplete.
And so I just my mindset is if you build a strong
team, people want to be part of a strong team
and you build other strong members of that team.
But when you have a weak team. You know, their
standards get to lose. You know, SOPs get loose.
Everything gets loose. Everything's blaming everyone
else loose. And there's, you know what I mean?
The military's figured all of this out. All of
this. What's bad and what's good. But I don't
know. I just wish they did. I mean, that's my
thing. I've seen through my experience. I've
definitely worked for one of the best fire departments
and one of the worst in America. I'll leave people
to figure out which is which. But the good one
was notorious, certainly when I was there, for
their probation. By the end of the year, they
would lose 25 % of the recruits through attrition.
They put the bar high and they were like, there
it is. And they even, I think, overhired. So
they would kind of absorb that. Conversely, the
other one. that you didn't even do any PT when
you were in their orientation, if there were
five vacancies, there might be nine people applying.
And it paid better and had a little bit more
time off than the other one, other sides of the
country. So I saw that. Lowering standards does
not work. If that was the case, that place would
have had hundreds of thousands of candidates
because the bar was in a trench below ground.
So it's so maddening seeing that. And going back
to what you said as far as... That confidence,
so many people have had on the show from law
enforcement that were in great shape, that had
martial arts training, had reportedly the least
hands -on events. Because the, you know, air
quotes bad guy would look at them and go, yeah,
I'm not going to try and mess with Sebastian
Lavoie or whoever it is because they just appear
like they would be able to whoop my ass. And
so your downs are just a very few now. But you
look at the deconditioned officer that's never
even been uncomfortable before. Even your average
person's probably look at them and go, well,
I could outrun them in a foot chase. And as you
said, sadly, we've seen them. And it's all fun
and games, ha, ha, ha, on the Instagram. Unless
you put the scenario, right, that guy's got a
knife and he's running towards a kindergarten.
Not so funny now, is it? So I think this is such
an important conversation in fire, in law enforcement,
and even EMS. There seems to be an allowance
on the EMS. But we have to go, you know, say
you were a single -serve paramedic and you're
called to the Vegas shooting. you know, they're
not just going to wheel everyone to, you're going
to have to go in there and start dragging bodies.
So all of our professions collectively should
be held to a high standard. I agree. And like
that Vegas thing, now you're there and the elevators
are down and you need to get upstairs. Now you're
climbing stairs and you got your aid bags with
you, you know what I mean? Which are heavy. Yeah.
And are you stopping every floor to catch your
breath? So there are some people that do self
-reflection and they take it upon themselves.
I just wish the departments like my department
fostered that healthier living, you know, but
it's money and it's numbers. And so their thing
is with the numbers, they need you out on the
street. You know what I mean? And so they need
to put more people out on the street. And then,
well, we don't have the money to, you know, pay
for a 50 % off of a gym membership. but you got
enough money to spend on a lawsuit. You know
what I mean? So it's like, you're going to pay
either or. And so it's been shown throughout
time and history, hard standards, good standards,
strong people create less problems. It just,
there are problems. Don't get me wrong, but there
are less problems than weak people because everything
starts to dissipate and your boundaries get wider
and wider and wider. People are doing stuff they
shouldn't be doing. It gets overlooked. But when
you have a standard, it doesn't matter if you're
the absolute, if you're a team leader, right?
And I'm just a guy, I should be able to call
you out tactfully, right? But there's people
that are getting this bravado, like they become
a leadership and then they start gaining weight.
And then you can't do, it was harder. Me and
my buddy had a discussion. It was harder for
us to be on the team at 18 years on as team leaders.
Because we had to stay up with the new guys coming
in. You know what I mean? We had to make sure
that we were shooting on par or better. We had
to make sure that we were on par or better physical
fit. We had to make sure that we were on par
or better as far as skills. You know what I mean?
And so you were constantly, constantly, constantly
trying to get better. And we had a very strong
run with no lawsuits on my tenure. Yeah. I don't
think we had any lawsuits. But we did very thing.
We did a lot of stuff and very professional,
but we had standards and we took care of internal
stuff. Harshly sometimes, but it wasn't really
harsh. It was direct, you know? So, but yeah.
I had a former cop on the show who now has a
background investigation company. And it was
a really interesting conversation. He was at
a conference and. I forget what kind of expert
was on the stage, but he'd asked, how much does
it cost to get rid of a bad employee in law enforcement?
And the guy said, half a million dollars. So
when we're lowering this bar, because whether
it's, you know, I mean, I think we should absolutely
encapsulate anyone who's taken the job seriously,
has met all the standards, and they happened
to, as you just said, you know, get her on the
job. We need to get them back to. as near as
perfect as possible and put all our resources
in there. But we all know that when you don't
set the standard high, you don't forge that camaraderie
and community within our profession and hold
everyone up to the same standard that some people
will take advantage of it. And now you've got
these kind of fake workman's comp claims and
disabilities. And that's what they were alluding
to. Or as you said, a mistake with a lawsuit.
And now you're probably talking about millions
then. So it's a complete false economy. When
you actually look at it, and you take the downstream
money and you put it up front, you end up saving
money hand over fist with a high bar and a well,
God, what's the freaking term I'm looking for?
With full recruitment is what I'm trying to say.
Everyone in that, the vacancy is filled with
the right kind of person in the first place.
Now go to a business that's in the business of
making money with products and then take them
the mold of your old department and say, hey,
would this work here? It would be absolutely
not. Right? Where's the growth? Where's the production
greater than last year? What are we doing to
make our people better salesmen? Right? You have
to put money into people for training. You have
to. If you want less problems, I mean, like I
said, the military's figured this out. But it's
just, it's a money thing and it's a numbers thing.
It really is. And it's just, God, it's... It's
sad. We've fought in many battles and we've won
many battles. We've lost some, but I'll often
remember like, it shouldn't be this hard to fight,
to go try to save somebody's life. You know what
I mean? I just don't understand the concept,
but because there's money attached to it. And
so that's the biggest fight. And then when you're
limited on your money for law enforcement, because
everyone thinks that law enforcements are fully
funded and they have all the money in the world.
No, they do not. Right. There was things that
we were making at home, bringing to use on the
team. When I first started on the team, you used
your own sniper rifle. You know what I mean?
Yeah. It's just like and so you're always fighting
for money to get some. So grants were great because
grants helped get you certain capabilities and
tools and tech that augmented. So the department
didn't have to pay for it. Right. And so we've
gotten. helicopter engines we've gotten boats
uh we've gotten all kinds of stuff through the
grant money and it's a great program but it's
for a reason and it's been um but you fight and
you just kind of got to pick your battles on
what you want there's some that we've let go
of and we didn't realize um my buddy fought hard
for the explosive breaching one and they thought
we were going to put bombs on doors and blow
people up because they didn't know So what did
he do? He educated them. And once they knew,
they're like, oh, that's it? You know what I
mean? So it's worth it. I will say it's worth
it, but you will bleed. You will bleed a little
bit, but it's worth it. And so I can look back.
This is what I like about it. I can look back
now and say I'm glad for what I did, and I'm
happy with what I did, and I'm content with what
I've done. Rather than leaving that career saying,
man, I wish I would have, I wish I would have
spoke up. I wish I, I've said my mind many times
and I've gone back and I've apologized for speaking
my mind sometimes because I might've been wrong.
So, but yeah, I'm content with what I've done.
And I think that time that I had on our team
with my buddy and the guys on that team that
we did some great stuff and we built some awesome
capabilities. Did your friend manage to get that
breaching program approved by breaching the council's
door and then throwing a flashbang in there just
so they could get that full immersive experience?
No. Show and tell, bitch. Yeah. We've learned,
though, you bring those decision makers out.
So when we did aerial shooting program, we brought
the sheriff out and we let the sheriff watch
the snipers get up in the aircraft and shoot
out of the helicopter. And she realized, oh,
and I told her, I said, you know, mother earth
is your backstop. If you miss for some chance,
you miss your suspect. I said, you get close
proximity to your target and your miss is maybe
like six inches, but it's into the ground. It's
not traveling through the air over a mile into
some neighborhood, you know, certain things like
that. So certain things like that. And so. You
just got to bring people into kind of like, oh,
that's all it is? Or, oh, I didn't realize that.
You know what I mean? Absolutely. Well, I want
to transition to, well, I want to go to your
transition. Let's use the same word twice before
we go to some closing questions. So at what point
did you realize that you want to transition out?
And then let's talk about your transition from
law enforcement now into what you're doing today.
I knew I wanted to transition out during the
whole kind of 2020 COVID thing. They really,
it was a, it was, it was, I'll say it was horrible
what they did to law enforcement. Absolutely
horrible. And I called my dad, I ran my financials
to him. And it was my wife that looked at me
and said, go. And so I had been contracting for
six years while I was still working. And, and
that's kind of a, every time the government gets
shut down or funding gets pulled, that can stop,
you know? So I never put any like hard ownership
or income value on that, but it was something
I did and I like. And so when I did transition,
I still coach. I still do motivational talks
to colleges and high schools and people. I still
have clients. mental skills stuff for coaching
for soccer teams, football teams, rodeo athletes.
I do all of those things still and little pots
of money there for me to come in plus my retirement.
But then I also go do my overseas stuff. So I'm
supposed to, I'm going to be in the Middle East
sometime mid next year. So I like doing that.
You know, you're over there. I like the program
from what it's worth. I like what it does and
what you're building for guys. So yeah, I just
continue to do that. That fly is madly in love
with you. I know, man. I need to try to kill
it. All right. Well, I want to go to some closing
questions so I can be mindful of your time. The
first one I love to ask, is there a book or are
there books that you love to recommend? It can
be related to our discussion today or completely
unrelated. I don't read a lot of books, right?
So, which is kind of ironic because I wrote a
book, right? So my book that I wrote was on Amazon
for your greatest investment, raising strong
kids through the Family Foundation, right? And
so it's just 60 pages of something small and
how we raised our girls. And so I would have
more value in talking to you and life experience
than reading a book. And so I've read some experts
or excerpts of books that were recommended to
me, but what happens is, and I read books prior
to writing my book and I got into this whole
fluff. They're filling pages and you can tell
by when they're talking, they're just filling
pages to get more pages in the book. I have no
value for that because that doesn't give me a
solution. And I, you know, so someone that's
direct communicator, like communicator, like
you, that's more truthful. I can get more value
out of you listening to you talking to you than
I can with a book. And so there's people that
do read books, depending on the author. There's
someone out there that you. probably would want
to read because you value their opinion and they
don't do that. That's great. But we stay pretty
active and pretty busy in our household. So I
just have a hard time sitting and reading. You
know what I mean? Unless if it's shorter and
more direct and to the point. I like stuff like
that. So a book off the top of my head, I can't
think of one. i'm just not a heavy heavy reader
but i'll listen to podcasts and i'll listen to
other people and i'll talk to other people in
life you know have you ever read um sebastian
junger's book tribe no you would like his stuff
i i kind of not even modeled i found it was the
same thing like i yeah i'm very lean writer and
he is as well i think his books are like 130
pages and he's hitting on some i mean the tribe
is incredible is recommended on here over and
over and over again but he's got another a couple
i'm trying to remember freedom is one um and
his latest one he did actually on near -death
experience that he had but yeah every single
word counts in his books and i agree completely
there's nothing worse than going through 300
pages and going so basically the title is this
whole book is what you're saying yeah exactly
yeah So, yeah, like I said, there's guys out
there that have books that are very valuable.
I just, I would basically, instead of research,
I would have someone like you tell me, read this
book. You know what I mean? And it's more kind
of like what you would like. That would spark
my interest to maybe look it up and read it,
you know, versus me going out in the atmosphere,
just trying to find a book, you know, but I did
read a lot of parenting books. And not the full
books itself, but I would go in from kind of
the beginning. I'd get in the middle and I'd
kind of go to the end. And I was like, I can't
believe that people are buying this. I just can't.
Now there's a hundred different ways to parent.
Don't get me wrong. Right. But when you're trying
to parent, it almost looks at it like, look at
me, look at me, look at me, look at me, you know,
the author. And it's just like, my whole goal
was to build strong, confident female girls,
you know. And that know their worth. And so they
had no cell phones until they were in high school.
So they're not doing stupid shit on Instagram.
They don't have Snapchat, but what does every
dude ask them? What's your Snapchat channel?
They don't have it. They're adults now. They
still don't have it. Focus in a career driven
for both of them, you know, and then having something
to do in the side of a competitive side is CrossFit,
you know, but that I just use my experience of
raising our family and how we did it. and showcased
it into my book, but another book like that.
Yeah, absolutely. I would read it. I'm not, I'm
not against it. I just, I don't read a lot. Yeah.
Well, I think he's been on the show four or five
times now, so I highly recommend him. So you
listen to the podcast or, or his books, but tribe
is a must one. If you, if you have any inkling
to read at all, I would recommend put that number
one on your, on your list. And it's very short.
Writing it down now. Got it. Roger. What about
film, television, documentaries, any of those
that you like? I like documentaries because they're
more like real stuff, right? You know, but there's
still stuff in there. Like they're making a documentary
of one of our missions right now on Netflix,
right? And I had one of the guys call me. And
I'm sure there's going to be fluff in there that
you're like, well, that didn't happen. But they
elongate it to get more time and it's got to
be appealing to other people. Right. I like very
truthful things, you know, or Westerns. Right.
Like Lonesome Doves. We watch Lonesome Dove all
the time here. Right. But again, you know, the
running joke in our house is we can't even watch
a movie. We can't even get, all four of us would
not be able to sit down and watch an entire movie
because we would get to talking about something
because we debrief a lot about certain things,
right? And, or talk about life stuff or the cows
or the horses and we just get, we just get tied
up and just not getting sucked in and watching
a TV show. You know, maybe that's my problem.
Maybe I need to sit down and relax a little bit
more. I don't know. Again, there's some great
television out there. One that came up over and
over again, and it's old, but law enforcement
specifically would always, or a lot of them would
say The Wire. And I finally sat down and started
watching. It's four seasons. I think it is four
or five. Maybe it's five. But they said it is
the closest thing to their experience in law
enforcement. And it was phenomenal. So I think
that's the thing. There are just like books.
There are some phenomenal shows. That one's on
HBO, but well worth it. Never even heard of it.
Yeah. And it was like. basically i think 2000
or early 2001 was when the first one came out
and then so the the kind of the way they've done
it and it's so well done i think it was a baltimore
journalist who kind of covered homicide initially
but they told like the first series was um through
the the kind of standing up of this um uh detective
you know anti -drug um gang or unit whatever
you want to call it And so you see through their
eyes. The second one you see through the smuggler's
eyes. The third time you see through the gang
member's eyes. The fourth is more like the school
and how these young kids get to this point. And
the fifth, I think, was more like the politician,
like how, as we were talking about, you know,
2020, the right way, the wrong way. And it's
just so well done because every single perspective
is different. And it's, you know, I think each
episode is an hour. So you could kind of do that
and then walk away and do all the CrossFit and
all the other things rather than be sucked into
a two and a half hour film. Why it's not more
well -known, I don't know, because it's by far
one of the best pieces of television I've ever
watched. Never even heard of it. But again, so
you recommend it. I put it down and it might
be if we have a little bit, we watch it, you
know? Yeah. Brilliant. All right. Well, the next
question, is there a person that you'd recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military and associated
professions of the world? um god there's a bunch
of dudes right um yeah there's like my uh my
old sergeant uh he retired just after me um but
god there's there's a bunch of people but i don't
um Trying to think. I mean, my other buddy, my
other team leader was with team leader with me
on the team. He's still there. I think he's going
to retire next year sometime. But one of those
two, Brian or Chris, you know, Chris was the
old sergeant and he was in the military. He got
out at 82nd year born, came back in to the Ranger
Battalion and then came over to become a cop.
And he got on the SWAT with us, came back as
a sergeant. So he's got a lot of experience and
a lot of. He was my in -between from the admin
to the sergeant. We communicated quite a bit
because he was the sergeant of the team, right?
But he was up talking to the admin way more than
I was. And so he'd be a good one. Brilliant.
Brilliant. I can give you the information. Yeah,
that'd be fantastic. Thank you. All right. Well,
then the last question before we make sure where
to find you and also make sure that we talk about
your apparel company as well. What do you do
to decompress? You know, I tell this to people
all the time. I could go down to a mercantile
shop with my kids and my wife. That's what I
do. I could go to the supermarket. And that's
what I do. I just like being out with my family.
That's all. And so I don't say, no, I put the
headphones on, I put my hood on, I get in the
gym. I don't do that. You know what I mean? We're
social people. I'm a social person. I like my
family. And we do things as a family all the
time. So that's what I do is I just go places
with them and do stuff with them. But there's
stuff we have to do. Like later today, we got
to do stuff with the horses. You know what I
mean? The girls will be out there with the horses
with me. And then we're all doing a workout here.
So my wife and my daughters are doing a workout
here at our place. And so I guess that's what
I do decompress is I just hang with my family
and do stuff like that. I specifically hone in
on one thing that I do that's isolating me from
anything just so I decompress, right? I decompress
within my own family. Absolutely. Yeah, I do
the same, that and walking my dog. Yeah, see
what I'm saying? It's just like, because you
have time to think when you're out there walking
around and doing stuff and you have time to think
out when you're lifting weights, but you're not
alone. You know what I mean? You're with someone,
you're conversing with somebody or something,
you know? Yeah, that's what I do and that's what
I like. And I've always been that way. Well,
for people listening, firstly, let's talk about
the apparel company. So Three Arrow Apparel,
Instagram at Three Arrow Apparel. Each arrow
is my wife and daughter and I'm the bar. So it's
a team concept. So if the team is tightly bonded
together, the individual byproduct of that team
is individual strength. the arrows. That individual
strength will always contribute to the team and
the team contributes to building the individual
strength. So, it was a team concept and we built
that and we have hats, shirts, we have sayings
on our shirts, we have nine trademarks. One of
our trademarks is licensed with the American
Legion. And so, we get dividends from that every
year and It's basically live life through action.
Anything you do in life, I don't care if you're
a bull rider, if you're a hockey player, you're
a soccer player, we're for you because it's actionable,
right? And so everything's derivative from a
team, a family, a team as far as the family goes.
But, you know, if you're an individual competing
in something individually, that's, it's still
for you because we're all about strength, drive
and determination, you know? And so we just,
I started it with my coaching thing, the arrows,
right? And then my wife was like, you should
probably put that on some shirts and sell it.
And I'm like, no one's going to buy that. So
we do. We do. All right. We get orders every
week and all over the US and stuff. And so we
were about to restock some more stuff when we
build our gym out here at our place out in Texas.
And so we were all crammed into our room right
now because we just moved here four and a half
months ago. So and we bought a trailer and we
do shows. and have the tent set up and everyone
there works it because it's everyone in the family
is part of it. So the girls, you know, help run
the tills and the money. And I do the talking
and my wife does the inventory. I mean, everyone
just kind of plays their part for it. And so
then we sponsor athletes. We have some athletes
that we sponsor with clothing. And so, yeah,
it's kind of a, it just kind of started growing
slow and it just kept building and building and
building. But I want these things to stand for
something, you know what I mean? So. I don't
want to become a millionaire overnight and then
next year no one ever wear our stuff. So that
slow progression of growth is what I'm okay with.
And everyone tells me you should grow faster.
I'm okay with where we're going now because I
want that to mean something. And so that three
-year apparel, we got hoodies, hats, and shirts.
Pretty cool stuff. And then my coaching stuff
is that three -year OTME. That's my coaching,
but I just do family stuff on there and coaching
stuff. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I want to thank
you so much. I mean, such an interesting conversation
and being all over the place and taking a deep
dive into CrossFit, especially training, you
know, both of your daughters to be competitive
in that space has been really interesting. And
then obviously paralleling that with the woeful
lack of fitness standards in our professions,
plural. So I want to thank you so much for being
so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Absolutely,
James. I really appreciate it. And thank you
so much. And it was great meeting you for the
first time with our Northern brothers. And then
now I appreciate it.