WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by yet another company

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that I truly stand behind, and that is Levels.

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And Levels is going to be offering you, the Behind

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the Shield podcast audience, a discount that

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I will tell you about at the end of this introduction.

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Now, before I even dive into what Levels does,

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when I had a conversation with their CEO and

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founder, Josh Clemente, he underlined such an

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important topic. So many of us rely on visits

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to our physicians to tell us how we are doing,

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and that is so backward. I am an absolute believer

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in putting autonomy back into the hands of the

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individual so they can take care of their own

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health. Now, what Levels does is it gives us

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the metrics so we can see exactly how everything

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is internally. So they help people improve their

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health through continuous glucose monitoring,

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comprehensive lab tests and metabolic coaching.

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Now through their three levels that they offer,

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they have programs that focus on weight loss,

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heart health, and glucose stability. I've now

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been through this program twice, and I'll kind

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of illustrate what it will look like. So you

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make an initial consultation with your levels

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coach. You wear a continuous blood sugar monitor

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for one month. You'll complete a lab panel, and

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I did it through Quest Diagnostics. A clinician

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with levels will then analyze your results and

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give you an action plan. That's when you can

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then start hitting your own health goals and

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in real time track your own progress. And then

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depending on the level you subscribe to, there's

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also a second blood work so you can now see how

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you're doing six months later. Now by combining

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AI data, AI powered insights and human coaching

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together, 80 % of Levels members improve their

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biomarkers. Now, as I mentioned, Levels is offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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$100 off your first order if you use the promo

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code SHIELD at levels .com. And if you're interested

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in getting Levels for your department, email

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Josh Clemente, the founder and CEO of Levels,

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at josh at levels .com. And if you want to hear

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the origin story and so much more about this

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incredible company, listen to my interview with

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CEO and founder Josh Clemente on episode 1159

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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to

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the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my

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name is James Geering, and this week it is my

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absolute honor to welcome on the show former

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Secret Service agent and the author of Bury Me

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in a Dirty Suit, Darren Kinder. Now, in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics from

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his journey into the world of teaching, transitioning

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into the Secret Service, being at Ground Zero

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during 9 -11, the community he witnessed on 9

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-12, the difference between a citizen and a civilian,

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the great boat lift of 9 -11, Dietrich Bonhoeffer,

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catharsis through writing, his faith, and so

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much more. Now, before we get to this incredible

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conversation, as I say every week, please just

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take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen

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to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback

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and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making

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it easier for others to find. And this is a free

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library of almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all

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I ask in return is that you help share these

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incredible men and women's stories so I can get

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them to every single person on planet Earth who

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needs to hear them. So with that being said,

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I introduce to you Darren Kinder. Enjoy. Well,

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Darren, I want to start by saying two things.

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Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Chris

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McIntyre, for making this introduction. And secondly,

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I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Well, James, it's good to be here.

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Chris is a good man, and you came highly recommended.

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I've been looking at your work ever since and

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very impressed. I'm happy to be here. Thank you

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very much. We'll get into it. But I didn't realize

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another, let's say mutual friend, I don't know

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him very well, apart from being on the on the

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show. But Frank Larkin was on the show talking

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about Ryan and, you know, his whole career, too.

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So So yeah, there's another connection. Oh, yeah,

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I haven't spoken to Frank in a long time. But

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he's a good man. He's the best of the best. Absolutely.

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All right. Well, very first question, where on

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planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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Well, I live in Dallas, Texas, but I'm currently

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in College Station, Texas right now. I'm in town.

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My son, my college -age son is playing baseball

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in town. So I came out here to catch a couple

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of games. Brilliant. Well, let's start at the

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very beginning of your timeline then. So tell

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me where you were born and tell me a little bit

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about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. Sure. Born in Tennessee,

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but lived my entire life in Virginia. My childhood

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from age one to, you know, when I left town about

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age 25 or 24, I guess. I am the youngest of two.

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I have an older brother who's three years older.

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As I write in my book, and you know, he's the

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real cop in the family. 28 -year veteran police

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officer, and I admire him, respect him deeply.

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My mother and father, good people. My brother

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and I kind of had service kind of in our bones,

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I guess. We had a front row seat to watch, and

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my mom was a registered nurse. My father worked

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for the state of Virginia for an agency that

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served the blind community. And I guess that

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had an impact, even though I was too young to

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realize it. But no mistake, no coincidence that

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my brother and I both went into public service,

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both in the law enforcement realm. I saw that

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about your father. It's an interesting position.

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It's funny. We were just walking in St. Augustine,

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and I think it's the Florida Center for the Blind.

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It's got a beautiful building there. When you

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talk about just the adaptive community in general,

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there's been such an evolution. And tragically,

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you know, some of it came from post 9 -11, as

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we'll talk about now. But what has been your

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dad's observations of that community and the

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technology and the reducing of the stigma for

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the men and women and children that he worked

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with? Yeah, no, he was very far removed from

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it. He passed. He passed in 2020, in January

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of 2020. and he was retired for gosh at least

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15 years before that um but i just as i was watching

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him uh just growing up um you know he knew that

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he had a job a job that mattered a job that uh

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brought people in i got to see uh blind people

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blind folks come in their their clients come

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into their center and learn how to learn how

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to communicate and learn computer skills and

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learn uh learn you know how to get a job and

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all these things and they would take them on

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these trips and uh and do job interviews with

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them and take them and get them closed and all

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these kinds of things depending on their their

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level of need and um i was just always really

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really impressed by that, that this agency was

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working towards, you know, to the least of these,

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I guess, to a community that is often neglected,

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I guess I would come to later know. And I don't

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know how common that is across state agencies,

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but I was very impressed with the state of Virginia

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and what they did. It's one of those things when

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we talk about gratitude, you know, when you wake

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up in the morning, you know, kind of just...

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sit on your bed and take a moment to be grateful.

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And we forget that that's one of the biggest

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things. And I'm married to an optometrist. So,

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you know, the world of vision is close to me

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as well. But just simply opening your eyes and

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be able to see we take that so often for granted.

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And there, you know, as you said, there are people

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that don't have that gift that had it taken from

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them at birth or through combat. So, yeah, I

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really think it's one of the best ways of reframing,

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you know, what's truly important is if you just

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open your eyes in the morning, you can see. Sure,

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sure. And, you know, it goes across the board

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in the law enforcement community, in the military

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community, able -bodied men and women who enter

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in the service and they leave with something,

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right? Something lacking, something off. And

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I'm just now starting to experience, you know,

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hearing loss, hearing issues, tinnitus in one

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of my ears. And, you know, it's just adapting

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to it. It's not a big deal, but it makes you

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wonder. It makes you wonder. um how people um

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who have such a what could be a debilitating

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um issue and they they just they just power through

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and they learn the skills and they learn to do

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things the hard way and it's very impressive

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to watch from afar now what about your mother

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talk to me about seeing her in in the healing

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role in nursing Yeah, she did a lot of different

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roles. She was also the neighborhood nurse, right?

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Everyone who had an issue, who had a problem

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on the block would make their way down to Donna's

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house and she would heal them or give them some

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care, give them some recommendations. And having

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a front row seat to that, I would go see her

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at work. And again, you're working with... people

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that are hurting, people that have an issue,

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and their family members. And she was always

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really good as eyewitness with her family members.

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And, you know, maybe not a coincidence. Again,

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you know, I went on to marry my wife. She was

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a nurse, and now she's a nurse practitioner.

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And, again, she's the community nurse. People

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are coming in or calling her or saying, hey,

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you know, reaching out through me. It's fun to

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watch. What about faith back then? Were you raised

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in quite a devout Christian household as a child?

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I was not, to an extent. We kind of went to church

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every now and then. I wouldn't say it was at

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the center of our life or the center of our family.

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My father seemed to be mostly disinterested.

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He was a good man, by and large, and a good father.

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He really didn't offer much in the way of faith.

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I came into faith myself when my parents split.

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They separated when I was in the sixth grade

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and divorced when I was in the eighth grade.

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And at that time, I watched my mother really

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lean in to faith for the first time in a real

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way, right? I had a front row seat to watch.

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her be broken and just kind of desperate for

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something, for healing and for an outlet. And

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I saw her lean into faith and it was impressive,

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had a profound impact on me. And that was, you

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know, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. And later

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on in my high school years is when I, you know,

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when I took on faith for myself and made it my

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own. And it's changed the trajectory of my life

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ever since. What about sports and exercise? What

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were you playing and doing when you were in school

00:11:45.289 --> 00:11:48.389
age? I mean, we were never home, right? I mean,

00:11:48.389 --> 00:11:50.230
we were never home running around like crazy

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kids and on the bikes and things like that. We

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were heavy into sports, basketball, baseball.

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My brother and I were really into swimming as

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well. And I would use that later in my career,

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which was awesome. I loved swimming. I still

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do. But basketball, baseball, and I was proficient

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at soccer. So in high school, you know, coming

00:12:11.950 --> 00:12:13.909
up, doing all of those things. And then, of course,

00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.289
it winnows down. And my brother was a really

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good baseball player. He was left handed. I'm

00:12:19.419 --> 00:12:21.519
left handed, but I couldn't seem to get that

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left handed thing working. And he was a really

00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:26.179
good baseball player, good pitcher. I gravitated

00:12:26.179 --> 00:12:28.980
in high school more to basketball and soccer,

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but a very physical family, always outdoors.

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We lived. I didn't know how good we had it in

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central Virginia. If I drove two hours to the

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east, I was at the beach and in the ocean. If

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I drove two hours to the west, I was in the mountains

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and we were hiking. And, man, I had it good and

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I just didn't know it. We made really good use

00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:54.120
of it. What about career aspirations? I know

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there was something that you did prior to entering

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the Secret Service. Yeah, I'm a bit of an odd.

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I mean, I was a high school history teacher,

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which really doesn't make much sense. It's not

00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:09.159
the traditional route into federal law enforcement

00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.259
and especially the U .S. Secret Service. But

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that's what I was doing. But in high school and

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in college, I knew I was going to go to college.

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But in that high school and college age time,

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I was going into the military. In my mind, it

00:13:23.549 --> 00:13:25.730
was just a matter of what branch I was trying

00:13:25.730 --> 00:13:29.330
to decide between Navy or Marines and just kind

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of young and dumb and didn't have access to the

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Internet now. And, you know, my sons hear that

00:13:34.690 --> 00:13:36.649
and they think I'm crazy. But, yeah, there was

00:13:36.649 --> 00:13:40.029
no Internet. And if I was going to research it,

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I literally would have had to go down and get

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a book at the library. Right. And I wasn't doing

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that. too busy doing other things so i was going

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to go in the military but i just just didn't

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do my didn't do my research and my senior year

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of second semester my senior year of college

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and i start that process and i'm quickly medically

00:13:57.370 --> 00:14:00.210
declared medically ineligible because i had asthma

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i had asthma at the time really bad when i was

00:14:03.009 --> 00:14:06.039
a child by that time in college it wasn't It

00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.059
wasn't that prevalent, but I still, you know,

00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:10.960
I didn't meet whatever deadline they had. And

00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:12.799
I don't know what the rules are now in the U

00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.539
.S. military, but back then that was a no go.

00:14:14.620 --> 00:14:18.740
So that door was closed and I was really, man,

00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.480
I went through a season, weeks, months of trying

00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:24.039
to figure out what am I going to do and really

00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:26.240
being down. And because this was the only thing

00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:28.759
I ever wanted to do. And it just so happened

00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.480
I was getting a teaching degree anyway. So, you

00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:33.820
know. James, that's why you have a fallback plan,

00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.019
right? Sometimes you got to fall back. And I

00:14:36.019 --> 00:14:39.679
fell back into teaching and I loved it. I loved

00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:41.539
it. I did it for three and a half years. I was

00:14:41.539 --> 00:14:44.620
coaching basketball, teaching history, just loved

00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:50.639
it. But there was an itch that still needed to

00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:52.759
be scratched. And it took me a while to identify

00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.059
what that was. But that was just really a kind

00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:59.639
of a servant, mission oriented, maybe even aggressive

00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.519
kind of thing that. that teaching wasn't doing

00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.299
for me, even though I loved it. I started looking

00:15:05.299 --> 00:15:08.799
for other avenues and yeah, you know, fast forward

00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:10.960
and three and a half years later, I wind up in

00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.980
the U .S. Secret Service. When you talk about

00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:16.419
asthma, it's funny. I was eliminated from the

00:15:16.419 --> 00:15:18.340
British Fire Service because I was supposedly

00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:20.779
colorblind with the little books that they give

00:15:20.779 --> 00:15:22.299
you. And I could see some of them, not others.

00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:25.120
It took me a long time to realize that I wasn't

00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:26.980
colorblind because I could see colors. That should

00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:28.620
have been the first hint, but that's why I'm

00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.740
not in law enforcement. But you have to start

00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:33.879
challenging tests and saying, look, this is ridiculous.

00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:35.500
And what I ended up doing over here was just

00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:36.840
say, point to something in the room, I'll tell

00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:38.620
you what color it is, and then boom, I passed.

00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:40.840
So it was just those kind of red -green deficiency

00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:44.320
I had, not colorblindness. When you were younger

00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:46.919
with the asthma, did you have any kind of dairy

00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:51.659
intolerance, eczema, anything like that? No,

00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:54.779
it was just, man, it was triggered mostly by

00:15:54.779 --> 00:15:57.000
animals, cats and dogs and things like that.

00:15:57.100 --> 00:16:00.019
And I had some horrific asthma attacks as a child.

00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:04.179
And, you know, medication wasn't as great. But

00:16:04.179 --> 00:16:07.080
I just remember times where it's just, man, if

00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:08.879
you have an experience, it's hard to describe.

00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.820
It feels like someone's sitting on your chest

00:16:10.820 --> 00:16:14.100
and you're really trying to get in a comfortable

00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:16.879
position and just kind of get in a little bit

00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:21.559
of air at a time. Yeah, scary, scary at times.

00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:23.440
I don't I don't struggle with it at all anymore.

00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:25.759
And none of my sons do, which is a blessing.

00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.159
But yeah, I never thought being as physical and

00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.179
rough and tumble as my brother and I were and

00:16:32.179 --> 00:16:33.840
all of our friends and everything that I did.

00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:37.600
I never thought something physical would keep

00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.960
me from doing anything. And in fact, the Secret

00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.720
Service put me through the ringer because I was

00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.679
honest with them on my medical forms. And and

00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:47.600
they put me off through all kinds of. you know,

00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.919
of tests and additional testing. And I was like,

00:16:50.980 --> 00:16:53.559
look, by that point, I think I was like, I've

00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:56.320
done like 30 something triathlons. This is ridiculous.

00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:59.379
Like, what are we? And finally, I just started

00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:01.720
talking to some people with common sense and

00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:04.740
made it through. But it probably extended my

00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.200
process, my hiring process, three or four or

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.740
five months. I think these are important stories

00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:12.200
to hear, though. You know, when you're told that

00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:13.960
you can't do something because you don't fit

00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:17.359
in the box. If you really have the burning desire

00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.539
to do that thing, find someone who did, who overcame

00:17:20.539 --> 00:17:22.759
that hurdle. Because, I mean, my one was a tiny

00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:24.940
little hurdle. And I think, again, if we're talking

00:17:24.940 --> 00:17:28.880
about life's paths, I obviously wasn't supposed

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.900
to be a firefighter in the UK. Life took me on

00:17:31.900 --> 00:17:33.579
such a bizarre journey, and I was supposed to

00:17:33.579 --> 00:17:36.460
be here. But, yeah, when it came to here, if

00:17:36.460 --> 00:17:39.099
I just said, I need to pass this book, and they

00:17:39.099 --> 00:17:40.880
said, sorry, you don't pass the book, that was

00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.250
it. but the moment you go well wait a second

00:17:43.250 --> 00:17:45.369
how is another way that you can assess this the

00:17:45.369 --> 00:17:47.609
same way the same with you and then you're like

00:17:47.609 --> 00:17:50.009
wow lo and behold i'm not deficient in this area

00:17:50.009 --> 00:17:53.930
anymore we can move forward now yeah yeah for

00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:57.170
sure yeah and that's and you learn lessons when

00:17:57.170 --> 00:17:59.829
you're young um you just got to be persistent

00:17:59.829 --> 00:18:01.930
you know maybe if i push back and gone through

00:18:01.930 --> 00:18:04.130
the waiver process and all these things but i

00:18:04.130 --> 00:18:05.990
really didn't have my parents really weren't

00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:08.059
involved in that whole process when i was putting

00:18:08.059 --> 00:18:10.660
in for the military and i wasn't getting counsel

00:18:10.660 --> 00:18:13.960
nor did i seek it honestly so um looking back

00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:15.779
maybe things would have been different but um

00:18:15.779 --> 00:18:18.400
i'm very pleased very happy with how it all turned

00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:23.140
out so talk to me about the kind of um god moment

00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:26.380
as far as your first introduction to someone

00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:31.119
from the secret service um Yeah, I was just,

00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.660
I was at a backyard barbecue with a friend, a

00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.079
man I taught with, a friend of mine named Billy.

00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:42.359
And he had a, he had a neighbor. He had a neighbor

00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.599
that was a Secret Service agent in the Richmond,

00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.559
Virginia field office. And I couldn't believe

00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.839
it that there even was a Secret Service office

00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.039
in Virginia. And I started asking him questions.

00:18:54.809 --> 00:18:56.950
And just started talking to him and asking him,

00:18:56.990 --> 00:18:59.109
you know, this and that. And after about 100

00:18:59.109 --> 00:19:01.190
questions, he was very patient, man. He said,

00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:03.430
you know, he said, look, I can tell you're interested.

00:19:03.829 --> 00:19:06.890
Just here's my card. And he gave me his business

00:19:06.890 --> 00:19:09.650
card. And that was during my first year of teaching.

00:19:09.809 --> 00:19:12.410
So that was really early on. And I was interested

00:19:12.410 --> 00:19:16.910
for sure, but I wasn't ready. I read what ready

00:19:16.910 --> 00:19:18.950
to make a choice to make it make a switch. I

00:19:18.950 --> 00:19:21.089
really never considered law enforcement. I always

00:19:21.089 --> 00:19:22.970
thought that as my brother's thing, because that's

00:19:22.970 --> 00:19:26.450
what he was already into at the time. And I just

00:19:26.450 --> 00:19:29.069
put that as I write in my book, I just put that

00:19:29.069 --> 00:19:31.630
card in my bedside table. And but, you know,

00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:33.490
you open that bedside table almost every day

00:19:33.490 --> 00:19:35.509
for something and it would just be there staring

00:19:35.509 --> 00:19:39.470
at me. And there it sat for, gosh, two, two and

00:19:39.470 --> 00:19:44.119
a half years before I finally just. I just like

00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:46.440
I said before, there was an itch that wasn't

00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.440
being scratched and I had to do it. And my wife,

00:19:48.460 --> 00:19:51.059
I mean, she is she's amazing. She has adventure

00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:54.920
in her bones. And I mentioned it to her. I said,

00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:56.559
what do you think you want to do this? And she

00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.839
was like, absolutely, let's do it. And so, yeah,

00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:01.660
I picked up the car and made a phone call and

00:20:01.660 --> 00:20:05.819
started the process. And just right time, right

00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:07.440
place. They were hiring a lot of people at the

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.819
time. And I didn't check a lot of the boxes,

00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:12.170
you know, that they were. Because most of those

00:20:12.170 --> 00:20:14.269
guys, most of the agents are former law enforcement

00:20:14.269 --> 00:20:16.809
or at the state or local level, or they're former

00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:20.269
military or whatever. And there's a small percentage

00:20:20.269 --> 00:20:22.490
of us that are other, and I was one of them.

00:20:23.130 --> 00:20:25.349
Before we kind of actually go into your journey

00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.130
in, when you reflect back now in the other side

00:20:28.130 --> 00:20:31.369
of this profession, what elements of your experience

00:20:31.369 --> 00:20:35.450
in teaching were assets once you got into the

00:20:35.450 --> 00:20:42.650
Secret Service? I mean, there wasn't a lot of

00:20:42.650 --> 00:20:46.609
overlap, but I was just I could I just I just

00:20:46.609 --> 00:20:49.910
loved history, but I could tell stories and and

00:20:49.910 --> 00:20:53.569
I could speak in front of people. And it's funny

00:20:53.569 --> 00:20:55.490
because now, you know, fast forward 25 years

00:20:55.490 --> 00:20:57.230
later, that's what I'm doing for a living professionally

00:20:57.230 --> 00:21:00.589
now speaking in front of people. But I just knew

00:21:00.589 --> 00:21:04.410
that. Everything I learned as a teacher, as far

00:21:04.410 --> 00:21:08.230
as working with people, telling stories and presenting

00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:11.029
and giving presentations and what I would later

00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:13.250
they would become called briefings. Right. Because

00:21:13.250 --> 00:21:14.950
in the Secret Service, it's now a briefing. And

00:21:14.950 --> 00:21:17.569
I was always really good at that and really strong

00:21:17.569 --> 00:21:20.609
like that. But really being a student of history

00:21:20.609 --> 00:21:23.190
and a teacher of history, I just love it and

00:21:23.190 --> 00:21:26.869
I appreciate it. And so everything for the next

00:21:26.869 --> 00:21:29.410
24 years, 25 years when I was in the Secret Service

00:21:29.410 --> 00:21:33.470
that I would encounter. I just had a greater

00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:36.490
appreciation, I think, and respect for the magnitude,

00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:38.990
the weight, the majesty of what was going on.

00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:41.109
It's just the office of the presidency, right?

00:21:41.269 --> 00:21:44.509
Or the vice presidency. I traveled to 42 different

00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:47.109
countries in my career. And a lot of times I'd

00:21:47.109 --> 00:21:49.349
be in places where I knew the historical backstory

00:21:49.349 --> 00:21:52.369
to a lot of it. And it just added a lot of richness

00:21:52.369 --> 00:21:56.710
to it, which was really helpful. But it also...

00:21:57.930 --> 00:22:00.670
I think it's part of why I was able to be 100

00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:04.630
% crystal clear focused on the mission. Because

00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:08.170
I just, you know, you study history and you study

00:22:08.170 --> 00:22:10.829
all kinds of failed experiments and failed governments.

00:22:11.170 --> 00:22:13.490
And this thing that we have in the United States

00:22:13.490 --> 00:22:16.009
is it ain't perfect, but it's pretty darn good.

00:22:16.150 --> 00:22:19.390
It's the best thing going, in my opinion. And,

00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:21.829
you know, it just means something when you take

00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:24.440
an oath, you swear to the Constitution. Well,

00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:26.720
when you're a student of history and you know

00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.900
what the Constitution means and you swear an

00:22:28.900 --> 00:22:31.019
oath to the office of the presidency, not the

00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:33.940
person in the office, not, you know, Republican,

00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.519
Democrat, man, woman, whoever it is, but to the

00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:40.099
office of the presidency. It just brought a lot

00:22:40.099 --> 00:22:43.519
of clarity and a lot of mission, focus, purpose

00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.099
for me. I think those lines might be a little

00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:48.859
blurred at the moment, but we'll talk about that

00:22:48.859 --> 00:22:55.799
later. So pre -9 -11, talk to me about your on

00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:57.859
-ramp into the Secret Service and the roles you

00:22:57.859 --> 00:23:01.940
held those first couple of years. Yeah, on -ramp

00:23:01.940 --> 00:23:07.180
in, I started in February of 2000. Our training

00:23:07.180 --> 00:23:11.900
regiment was basically seven months, about three,

00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:14.819
three and a half months. You go down to a place

00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:16.980
called Glencoe, Georgia, the Federal Law Enforcement

00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:19.359
Training Center. And that's kind of a generic.

00:23:20.299 --> 00:23:24.319
uh special agent criminal investigator um place

00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:28.319
boot camp kind of for all all a lot of different

00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.640
federal agencies uh not the fbi but but most

00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:33.380
others so you're kind of there just learning

00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:35.880
generic criminal investigations and how to be

00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.299
a special agent After that, we would then go

00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:41.220
for about three and a half months to our specialized

00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:44.220
training center in Maryland for the U .S. Secret

00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:47.319
Service. And that's where we're learning, you

00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:48.940
know, some of the more of the investigations,

00:23:49.059 --> 00:23:51.579
the specific kind of investigations that we would

00:23:51.579 --> 00:23:54.619
do. But more of the time, most of the time there

00:23:54.619 --> 00:23:57.059
was on that protective mission, you know, what

00:23:57.059 --> 00:24:00.660
it's like to protect the president, the vice

00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:03.480
president and so forth and motorcade operations

00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.990
and all kinds of things. So that was really both.

00:24:07.049 --> 00:24:09.029
Both were very different. Both were very enjoyable

00:24:09.029 --> 00:24:11.750
for me. I was a sponge. I didn't have any military

00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:13.789
or law enforcement experience. So I'm just I

00:24:13.789 --> 00:24:16.230
was probably an instructor's dream. Right. This

00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:19.250
guy knows nothing. He's whatever they said was

00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:21.849
gospel to me and kind of soaked it up and had

00:24:21.849 --> 00:24:23.970
a lot of fun and physically, physically challenging

00:24:23.970 --> 00:24:27.109
and demanding and learning control tactics and

00:24:27.109 --> 00:24:30.000
combats and hand to hand stuff. Just a ton of

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.160
fun. I mean, I was 26 years old, just ready to

00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:36.339
roll. And I was going to New York and everyone

00:24:36.339 --> 00:24:38.819
knew what office they were going to. And I was

00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:40.440
going to the New York field office. And there

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:44.000
was five of us in my training class that were

00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.819
all going to that office. It was considered the

00:24:46.819 --> 00:24:50.220
big, bad, ugly office of the service. At the

00:24:50.220 --> 00:24:51.920
time, it was the largest field office in the

00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.400
Secret Service. Went there, man, just a small

00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:59.200
-town kid from Virginia. And here I am in the

00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:03.019
big city. Upon graduation, my wife and I, we

00:25:03.019 --> 00:25:05.960
moved up there. Yeah, I'll never forget that

00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:08.019
first day just coming off the escalator. I took

00:25:08.019 --> 00:25:10.680
the path train, the path train underneath the

00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.420
Hudson River from Hoboken to the World Trade

00:25:13.420 --> 00:25:15.980
Center and coming up those escalators. And I

00:25:15.980 --> 00:25:18.579
walk off and I'm standing in the plaza, these

00:25:18.579 --> 00:25:21.240
two huge looming towers standing over me. And

00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:26.400
I was just like, all right, here we go. jumped

00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.960
into an investigative squad and and then that

00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.039
was uh august of 2000 and really i only had 13

00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:34.920
months uh as a special agent as a full you know

00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.319
full -on special agent before uh before the world

00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:42.420
changed on the on september 11th i'm more familiar

00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:44.799
with the you know close protection detail as

00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:46.920
far as president vice presidents etc i actually

00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:50.440
even was on the motorcade once when um uh president

00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.839
excuse me Former President Biden came to town

00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:57.339
when he was a VP still, and we were the paramedics

00:25:57.339 --> 00:25:59.539
for him. So we followed him through Orlando at

00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:01.440
like 60 miles an hour while the roads were blocked

00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:05.980
off, which was quite interesting. But talk to

00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:08.400
me about the investigation side, because you

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.099
obviously got local law enforcement, you've got

00:26:10.099 --> 00:26:12.880
FBI, et cetera. What is the Secret Services role

00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.369
in that particular area? Yeah, most folks don't

00:26:16.369 --> 00:26:18.289
know that it's a dual mission agency. Everyone

00:26:18.289 --> 00:26:20.470
knows us for that protective mission that you

00:26:20.470 --> 00:26:23.309
just mentioned. And that's honestly, that's our

00:26:23.309 --> 00:26:25.990
bread and butter. That's our number one priority.

00:26:26.230 --> 00:26:28.970
Number two, criminal investigations. We do all

00:26:28.970 --> 00:26:31.789
kinds of kind of white collar financial based

00:26:31.789 --> 00:26:34.329
crimes, counterfeit money, credit card fraud,

00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:37.990
money laundering, all kinds of computer access

00:26:37.990 --> 00:26:42.960
device fraud. We're into network intrusion now,

00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:50.160
even into online crimes against children and

00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:52.500
things of that nature. So there's a lot of overlap,

00:26:52.619 --> 00:26:54.460
unfortunately, with some of the things that the

00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:56.960
FBI does, with some of the things that HSI does,

00:26:57.220 --> 00:27:01.339
with some of the things that ICE may do. I think

00:27:01.339 --> 00:27:03.279
Congress needs to step in and kind of clean that

00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.039
up and we can be a little more streamlined, a

00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.039
little more efficient, not have as much overlap.

00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:10.539
But criminal investigations, you learn a lot

00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:14.160
from that job, from working with people, working

00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.960
with state officials and local officials, being

00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:18.900
on the streets in New York, I mean, running around

00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:21.720
the Bronx and figuring things out and how the

00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.799
streets work. You learn a lot and you can apply

00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:26.539
that to the protective mission. It just makes

00:27:26.539 --> 00:27:30.059
you a well -rounded person. So talk to me then

00:27:30.059 --> 00:27:32.619
about that fateful day because you had a very

00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:35.359
tragically up close and personal experience.

00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:38.160
So, you know, wherever you want to begin that,

00:27:38.220 --> 00:27:42.599
let's talk about the day of 9 -11. Yeah. So our

00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:44.619
office was in the World Trade Center, 7 World

00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:47.319
Trade Center. And I was in the locker room. I

00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.720
just finished working out with some people and

00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:51.880
just putting on a clean suit. We're all putting

00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.359
on suits that day. We had meetings and all of

00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:56.519
a sudden we were, you know, being told to evacuate.

00:27:57.980 --> 00:28:00.640
I didn't know why, but I just got some random

00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.220
gear from my desk and went outside and we dump

00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.740
out onto the street. And we were seven World

00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:09.220
Trade Center. It was just across the street on

00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:11.619
the north side of Tower One. You know, that first

00:28:11.619 --> 00:28:13.720
plane came in and hit Tower One from the north

00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:16.460
side. So we were looking at the impact zone.

00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.259
And, James, I didn't know what it was. I didn't

00:28:20.259 --> 00:28:22.960
know for most of the day, honestly. I didn't

00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.119
know the totality of the circumstances. But I

00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.529
knew that wasn't an accident. I knew that was

00:28:27.529 --> 00:28:30.970
an attack. I'm a student in history. Like I said,

00:28:31.049 --> 00:28:34.049
1993, you know, radical Islamic terrorists tried

00:28:34.049 --> 00:28:36.569
to take down the trade center with a truck bomb.

00:28:37.630 --> 00:28:40.490
I knew that in court documents that they vowed

00:28:40.490 --> 00:28:42.730
that they were going to try to do it again. And

00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:45.369
I had a feeling that was it, but I didn't know.

00:28:46.089 --> 00:28:50.269
All I knew is that there was literally instantly

00:28:50.269 --> 00:28:53.690
pain and suffering all around. Carnage, bodies.

00:28:54.829 --> 00:28:58.190
uh, people with bad, uh, with bad burns, uh,

00:28:58.390 --> 00:29:00.430
injuries. And this was, I didn't know that the

00:29:00.430 --> 00:29:03.049
day was just getting started. So at that point,

00:29:03.089 --> 00:29:05.490
man, we just, uh, we just entered in honestly

00:29:05.490 --> 00:29:08.230
into first responder mode. There is nothing about

00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:11.109
9 -11 on that day that was within our mission,

00:29:11.170 --> 00:29:13.750
the scope of our normal mission, but a bunch

00:29:13.750 --> 00:29:16.250
of us, myself and a bunch of other agents, uh,

00:29:16.390 --> 00:29:18.430
we just went into first responder mode with our

00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:21.349
basic medical training, had a huge first, uh,

00:29:21.390 --> 00:29:24.029
first aid kits that we use for our mission. And

00:29:24.029 --> 00:29:26.890
we just got a bunch of those and ran to the West

00:29:26.890 --> 00:29:29.069
Side Highway where all these ambulances were

00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:31.750
taking care of people. And we just tore open

00:29:31.750 --> 00:29:34.230
our first aid kits and started working, going

00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:35.730
to what I call it, doing the next thing, just

00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:39.529
entering in. And I was, for example, just cleaning

00:29:39.529 --> 00:29:42.210
this, irrigating and wrapping, trying to wrap

00:29:42.210 --> 00:29:44.869
this woman's arm. And she was badly burned. I

00:29:44.869 --> 00:29:47.049
can only assume it was jet fuel that came down

00:29:47.049 --> 00:29:49.799
on her. But, I mean, there was. You probably

00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:51.480
have more experience than me on this, but it

00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.339
looked like skin just dripping from her fingertips.

00:29:54.180 --> 00:29:56.000
Just that's the kind of injuries you were seeing.

00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:01.400
It was madness. Now, was that when you were treating

00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:03.160
people down there, was that when the second plane

00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:06.660
hit? Yeah, yeah. And that's where I was when

00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:10.240
I was maybe 80 yards or so from the base of Tower

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:13.019
2. And that second plane came screaming in with

00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:15.660
brutal precision. And, you know, it came in a

00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:17.859
lot lower than the first one. That's why that

00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:20.680
tower collapsed first. But it came in screaming

00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:22.680
and really low. And I never saw it. I never heard

00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:24.200
it. Just had that tunnel vision. You know, we

00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:26.000
all talk about that tunnel vision. I had tunnel

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.359
vision on this woman's arm. And next thing I

00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:30.319
know, it's just a massive explosion over the

00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:32.299
top of my head. I could feel I could feel the

00:30:32.299 --> 00:30:35.960
heat on the back of my neck. And at that point,

00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:39.980
we just chaos ruled and reigned. And we just

00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:41.680
scattered like ants because everyone was just

00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.599
running for cover. And yeah, at that point, I

00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.000
was with a guy named Tom and another agent named

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.509
John. That's when we decided to run across the

00:30:52.509 --> 00:30:54.250
street, go in the World Trade Center and start

00:30:54.250 --> 00:30:55.950
trying to find people and help them get out.

00:30:57.329 --> 00:30:59.630
So talk to me about what you found at that point

00:30:59.630 --> 00:31:03.309
in the foyer. Oh, man, just weird, man. It was

00:31:03.309 --> 00:31:06.190
really dark. There was water everywhere because

00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:08.529
the sprinklers were going off. And we found a

00:31:08.529 --> 00:31:12.549
stairwell that was being used as an evacuation

00:31:12.549 --> 00:31:15.130
route. And people were steadily coming down.

00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:17.210
And we said, why not? Let's just start going

00:31:17.210 --> 00:31:22.029
up. We just started climbing steps one flight

00:31:22.029 --> 00:31:26.809
after another. And being a firefighter, you've

00:31:26.809 --> 00:31:28.970
probably done that a lot more than me. But on

00:31:28.970 --> 00:31:31.829
this day, I got my legs, got a workout, and we're

00:31:31.829 --> 00:31:33.970
just going. And I just remember saying to people,

00:31:34.089 --> 00:31:37.269
I feel so stupid now, because it was fairly calm,

00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:39.369
but people were freaking out a little bit. And

00:31:39.369 --> 00:31:41.069
I remember saying out loud, you know, don't worry,

00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:43.829
nothing can bring these things down. You know,

00:31:43.829 --> 00:31:45.750
that's how ignorant I was, because I didn't even

00:31:45.750 --> 00:31:49.079
know at that point. you know 767s and just slammed

00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:53.400
in this buildings and um uh my ignorance was

00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:56.859
was apparent but we just uh i encountered a woman

00:31:56.859 --> 00:31:59.619
on the 10th floor or so and this is in the north

00:31:59.619 --> 00:32:02.079
tower tower one and she couldn't evacuate herself

00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.539
anymore and i grabbed her and i told the other

00:32:05.539 --> 00:32:07.220
two guys to keep going i would meet him at the

00:32:07.220 --> 00:32:09.980
next point of need and i started to carry her

00:32:09.980 --> 00:32:12.630
down and And that wasn't working because she

00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:15.390
was fairly large. And I just grabbed another

00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:17.710
random stranger. And, you know, we did the fireman's

00:32:17.710 --> 00:32:19.730
carry. We carried her down about 10 flights and

00:32:19.730 --> 00:32:23.130
handed her off to some paramedics. And at that

00:32:23.130 --> 00:32:27.930
point, I said goodbye to the guy. I thanked him.

00:32:28.049 --> 00:32:32.470
And then I needed to go back up because at that

00:32:32.470 --> 00:32:34.089
point, it was the first time, James, that day

00:32:34.089 --> 00:32:37.970
that I was alone. I was by myself and I didn't

00:32:37.970 --> 00:32:43.680
like it. I was timid. I was unsure. I was indecisive.

00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:47.220
And I needed to be with my guys. I call them

00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:49.099
my guys because all the agents I worked with

00:32:49.099 --> 00:32:52.099
that day were guys, just so happened to be. And

00:32:52.099 --> 00:32:55.960
so I went back up, not out of, I don't know,

00:32:56.019 --> 00:32:58.079
courage or bravery, not really. I was just trying

00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.039
to reconnect with my guys and be part of a team.

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.180
I mean, if that doesn't embody the first responder

00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:07.000
community right there, that mindset, right? We

00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:09.200
just know that. we just know we work better in

00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.640
teams right everyone brings different skills

00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:13.859
abilities and talents to this to the situation

00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:17.000
and um and so that's what i did i went back up

00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.119
and i i went about 30 floors about 110 floors

00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:26.160
there i went about 30 floors and um and yeah

00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.880
uh and that that was where um as i write in the

00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:32.700
book man i i never want to share this story without

00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:37.319
um without highlighting this part where I encountered

00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:41.880
just a hallway full on the 30th or so floor,

00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:44.839
a hallway full of New York City firefighters.

00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:48.900
And they were beaten, man. They were, I mean,

00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:50.539
you could tell they had been in the fight. I

00:33:50.539 --> 00:33:52.140
don't know if they'd been pulled back to refit,

00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:55.539
regroup. I'm not sure. And I had a brief conversation

00:33:55.539 --> 00:33:57.039
with them because I was looking for the other

00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.079
two agents, John and Tom. They didn't know which

00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.559
way they had gone. And at that point, I was like,

00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:05.240
man, I had no comms. I had no phone, no pager,

00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:09.420
no nothing. I decided to go back down to the

00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:11.440
lobby level and go outside and look for some

00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.000
colleagues. And that's when I heard it, James,

00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:16.840
man, as I was walking, as I was walking through

00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:21.400
the doorway, I heard their fire commander say,

00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:23.900
get your gear together, boys. We're going back

00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:30.489
up. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks.

00:34:31.889 --> 00:34:34.989
You know, the difference between them and me

00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:37.730
in that moment was I didn't have all the facts.

00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:42.969
If I had all the information, 767s, and so maybe

00:34:42.969 --> 00:34:44.710
I wouldn't have even been there, honestly, if

00:34:44.710 --> 00:34:46.949
I'm being honest. But those men and women in

00:34:46.949 --> 00:34:49.550
that hallway, man, they knew. They had comms.

00:34:50.889 --> 00:34:53.130
They knew the threat. They knew the danger. They

00:34:53.130 --> 00:34:55.250
knew the magnitude, or they had a much better

00:34:55.250 --> 00:34:58.489
idea of the magnitude of it. And they were going

00:34:58.489 --> 00:35:03.309
up anyways. And that's why forever, whenever

00:35:03.309 --> 00:35:05.389
I tell this story and share this story in front

00:35:05.389 --> 00:35:07.130
of groups and so forth, I just want to honor.

00:35:07.489 --> 00:35:10.429
I have no way of knowing for sure, but I'm only

00:35:10.429 --> 00:35:13.630
assuming they're part of the 343, you know, New

00:35:13.630 --> 00:35:16.349
York City firefighters who died that day. Part

00:35:16.349 --> 00:35:19.869
of the 422 first responder community that died

00:35:19.869 --> 00:35:25.369
that day. And as long as, and so I speak to a

00:35:25.369 --> 00:35:28.059
lot of fire groups and stuff today. And I tell

00:35:28.059 --> 00:35:30.320
them this, man, as long as this nation keeps

00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:32.639
producing young men and women that are willing

00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:36.940
to do that, it gives me hope. It still gives

00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:40.659
me hope. I'm an eternal optimist. It gives me

00:35:40.659 --> 00:35:43.300
hope because I may have seen the worst of humanity

00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:46.400
that day, but I saw the best of America. And

00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:50.659
that was a big part of it. In the book, you also,

00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:53.380
if I remember rightly, talk about making a phone

00:35:53.380 --> 00:35:57.730
call prior to the clams. Talk to me about that.

00:35:57.829 --> 00:36:00.289
And then tell me as well what your wife's reaction

00:36:00.289 --> 00:36:02.210
was when you finally got to talk to her about

00:36:02.210 --> 00:36:05.010
it. Gosh, probably the dumbest thing. The one

00:36:05.010 --> 00:36:07.769
regret I have that day is when I got back down

00:36:07.769 --> 00:36:10.750
to the 30th floor, I saw these fire commanders

00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:12.769
and they were all like manning the phones at

00:36:12.769 --> 00:36:16.110
the desk and stuff. And I was like, well, I should

00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:19.409
call my wife. But none of those phones were free.

00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:22.039
So there's a bank of pay phones over there. uh

00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:24.260
you know i talk to young groups sometimes today

00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:25.820
they don't even know what a pay phone is change

00:36:25.820 --> 00:36:29.039
but i called her man i called her collect from

00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.539
the lobby of the world trade center um just just

00:36:32.539 --> 00:36:35.320
so stupid and and uh you know we had a really

00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:38.199
brief conversation i said i'm in the lobby trade

00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:42.570
center I'm helping people get out. I will see

00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:44.469
you soon. I love you. You know, and hung up and

00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:47.289
just wanted to kind of calm her mind. Well, I

00:36:47.289 --> 00:36:49.130
hung up the phone and what she didn't know is

00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:51.349
that the second I hung up the phone, I went outside

00:36:51.349 --> 00:36:53.269
the complex. I left the building to look for

00:36:53.269 --> 00:36:57.469
my people, look for my colleagues. All she knows

00:36:57.469 --> 00:37:00.769
is that 13 minutes later, and I know because

00:37:00.769 --> 00:37:03.429
I have the phone records of the call, 13 minutes

00:37:03.429 --> 00:37:06.329
later, she watches, you know, Tower 2 collapse.

00:37:07.349 --> 00:37:10.059
And the last thing I had said to her was, i'm

00:37:10.059 --> 00:37:11.679
in the lobby of the world trade center helping

00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.599
people get out and um yeah man in that 13 minutes

00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.719
she called you know her parents my parents and

00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:19.579
my brother and her brother you know all of our

00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:23.360
friends and and so they all uh in theory in their

00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.659
mind at least they watched me die on live tv

00:37:25.659 --> 00:37:30.280
as that tower collapsed and uh it just yeah it

00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:33.099
it's it's one of the few partners i tell the

00:37:33.099 --> 00:37:34.780
story all the time i wrote the book and all of

00:37:34.780 --> 00:37:37.239
it was for good and for healing and it's great

00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:39.300
but it's one of the few things when i talk about

00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:44.039
it now it still gets me still gets me yeah i

00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:48.239
can see exactly that what about from the ground

00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:50.300
now so you're outside the building you know the

00:37:50.300 --> 00:37:52.860
building comes down you know again what is what

00:37:52.860 --> 00:37:56.260
is the experience from the outside yeah i mean

00:37:56.260 --> 00:37:58.599
i I heard it. I heard it happening before it

00:37:58.599 --> 00:38:00.900
happened. I heard the metal on metal screeching

00:38:00.900 --> 00:38:03.500
sound. And I looked up and man, the Talpa Tower

00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:06.300
too buckled. And I was standing there like. I

00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.360
don't know about again, about 80 yards from the

00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:10.920
base, just like crazy, stupid close. And my first

00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.659
thought was I'm dead. And my second thought was

00:38:13.659 --> 00:38:17.980
run. And I started running like hell. I was 27

00:38:17.980 --> 00:38:19.920
years old. I was a lot quicker then. But man,

00:38:20.019 --> 00:38:23.219
I was I started running and I hear the concussion

00:38:23.219 --> 00:38:26.099
of each each floor collapsing. Right. And then

00:38:26.099 --> 00:38:28.099
large chunks of debris starts to fall all around

00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:32.039
me. And I realized I am not. I'm not outrunning

00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:37.039
this monster, right? And next thing I know, I

00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:38.960
mean, I was going to get under a fire truck for

00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:40.760
safety. I thought about it and I didn't. And

00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:42.340
then I saw a pickup truck. I was going to get

00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:44.380
under that and I didn't. And I'm just, I'm churning,

00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:46.340
I'm churning, I'm churning. And then, man, that

00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:48.320
just bright, beautiful day became a dark night,

00:38:48.340 --> 00:38:51.179
dark night of horrors. Everything became black

00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:53.559
and my eyes and ears and nose were instantly

00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:56.199
filled with pulverized concrete. And the thing

00:38:56.199 --> 00:38:59.380
is though, and this is all seconds, right? I'm

00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:01.539
still sprinting and running because large chunks

00:39:01.539 --> 00:39:03.139
of debris are falling all around me. I mean,

00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:04.579
it sounded like cars falling out of the sky.

00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.920
And that lasted for several more seconds or strides.

00:39:09.019 --> 00:39:13.000
And I mean, at this point, I was running up Church

00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:16.099
Street. I had turned right or banked right onto

00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:20.340
Vesey Street and didn't even know it. And at

00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:23.610
that point, yeah, stuff starts. stuff starts

00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:26.150
stops falling all around me and i start to walk

00:39:26.150 --> 00:39:28.869
and start to stagger and try to try to figure

00:39:28.869 --> 00:39:33.070
out what i'm going to do next so when now as

00:39:33.070 --> 00:39:35.150
you turn around obviously you've got this you

00:39:35.150 --> 00:39:37.449
know like you said it's just darkness all the

00:39:37.449 --> 00:39:41.030
debris and the dust cloud what are you able to

00:39:41.030 --> 00:39:45.440
do after that i mean I saw sunlight. It was the

00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.119
craziest thing. I saw like piercing, like a,

00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.280
like a beam. I saw sun. And I was like, that's,

00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:52.619
that's crazy. And I walked across the street

00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:54.440
and I realized I was looking up an alley at the

00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:55.900
other end of the alley and there was sunlight.

00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:57.739
And, and so I was like, sweet, I'm just going

00:39:57.739 --> 00:39:59.880
to run up this skinny alley and get out of here,

00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:02.380
go North, get out of here. And at that point,

00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.579
man, it just, the screams in the darkness stopped

00:40:06.579 --> 00:40:11.690
me in my tracks. I just heard people screaming.

00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:15.130
I'm hurt. Someone help me. I can't see. Where

00:40:15.130 --> 00:40:19.090
am I? Somebody help me. I can hardly move. You

00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:21.510
know, these I heard these screams and I didn't

00:40:21.510 --> 00:40:23.969
know what to do because there was just so much

00:40:23.969 --> 00:40:26.510
blackness. And I just figured the best thing

00:40:26.510 --> 00:40:28.590
I could do is be a beacon, kind of be a lighthouse

00:40:28.590 --> 00:40:30.789
to the light. And so I just started screaming

00:40:30.789 --> 00:40:32.750
and yelling at the top of my lungs, follow the

00:40:32.750 --> 00:40:34.610
sound of my voice. Come this way. Come this way.

00:40:34.650 --> 00:40:36.670
Come to me. Come to me. Like, you know, just

00:40:36.670 --> 00:40:40.079
kept on repeat yelling. and so people would hear

00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:42.039
my voice and keep coming in my direction and

00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.500
when they made their way to me i would i would

00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:47.599
shoot them up the alley uh toward towards the

00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:50.420
sunlight and i don't know time has really warped

00:40:50.420 --> 00:40:53.579
on that whole thing i it felt like you know 20

00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:55.659
minutes it may have been five i'm not sure but

00:40:55.659 --> 00:40:59.159
i bet 10 or 15 people made their way to me and

00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:00.960
as they staggered to me i would just say go go

00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:04.519
go go go north go up the alley um but by the

00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:06.519
time it was my turn to go up the alley i turned

00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:09.219
around and and the light was gone and it was

00:41:09.219 --> 00:41:12.360
black and uh there was there was there was nowhere

00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.320
to go or so it seemed so uh yeah just uh i mean

00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:18.559
i don't think i'm i'm not i'm not saving the

00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.260
world in that situation uh and i really don't

00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:23.860
know what i was thinking uh i was just choosing

00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:26.440
i say this on in the book a lot courage is a

00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:29.739
choice i was just choosing to stay choosing to

00:41:29.739 --> 00:41:33.880
enter in choosing to um fight whatever fight

00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:36.400
was in front of me and just kind of and that

00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:38.679
message just really resonates with the military

00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:41.159
resonates with the first responder community

00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:44.500
uh choosing to bring some good some light into

00:41:44.500 --> 00:41:48.179
dark into the dark places and um that with that

00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:50.880
comes you know trauma and baggage and damage

00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.500
but um some of us are made for it you know what

00:41:54.500 --> 00:41:57.880
i mean absolutely there's that one quote you

00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.579
have in the book um and i'm i'm totally butchering

00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:04.139
it but it was about you know not you know that

00:42:04.139 --> 00:42:08.329
the warrior doesn't so that he can address evil

00:42:08.329 --> 00:42:10.630
from the front, but he fights or she fights because

00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:12.250
they're protecting the people that they love

00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:13.710
behind them. And I thought that was a beautiful

00:42:13.710 --> 00:42:16.449
quote. Yeah, that's a great G .K. Chesterton

00:42:16.449 --> 00:42:19.590
quote, if I remember correctly. It was about

00:42:19.590 --> 00:42:22.190
combat and soldiers, but the soldier doesn't

00:42:22.190 --> 00:42:23.750
fight because he hates what's in front of him.

00:42:23.789 --> 00:42:25.309
He fights because he loves what's behind him.

00:42:25.630 --> 00:42:30.750
And man, that is the heartbeat of the veteran

00:42:30.750 --> 00:42:32.969
and the first responder community, in my opinion.

00:42:33.949 --> 00:42:36.960
100%. So remind me, because I'm a little fuzzy

00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:40.039
of the timeline. Was it then that you found some

00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:44.099
of your fellow Secret Service guys or was it

00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:46.280
after the collapse of the second tower? That

00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:48.900
was after the collapse of the second tower. The

00:42:48.900 --> 00:42:51.320
time between the two towers was madness. I mean,

00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:54.840
it's kind of warped, but I mean, just I saw the

00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:56.900
best of people, though. I saw New Yorkers pouring

00:42:56.900 --> 00:43:00.340
out of. pouring out of bodegas and pharmacies

00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:03.360
and convenience stores with food, with water,

00:43:03.460 --> 00:43:05.659
with first aid supplies, you know, taking care

00:43:05.659 --> 00:43:07.940
of each other. There's a big dude on the corner

00:43:07.940 --> 00:43:10.599
with two five -gallon water jugs on his shoulders

00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:12.699
and people were just coming up and drinking and

00:43:12.699 --> 00:43:15.440
I used it to flush everything out of my face.

00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:19.119
But at some point in there, at some point in

00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:20.760
there, I don't remember making the decision.

00:43:21.550 --> 00:43:23.929
I turned back and I went back to the World Trade

00:43:23.929 --> 00:43:26.630
Center site and I was right back at the same

00:43:26.630 --> 00:43:28.929
intersection, Church and Betsy Street, when I

00:43:28.929 --> 00:43:33.010
heard the same noise, the same noise that I had

00:43:33.010 --> 00:43:34.989
heard previously, that weird metal on metal.

00:43:35.230 --> 00:43:37.590
I just couldn't believe it. I was like, oh, my

00:43:37.590 --> 00:43:39.829
gosh, here we go again. I started sprinting again.

00:43:40.230 --> 00:43:42.090
This time I went a different direction. I ran

00:43:42.090 --> 00:43:45.769
north. And then within seconds, yeah, just the

00:43:45.769 --> 00:43:47.710
pancaking of the floors. I heard it again and

00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:51.360
I could not. It just wasn't computing. I had

00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:52.880
a little bit of a head start on that one. So

00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:56.059
I knew I had a chance. And that's where I just

00:43:56.059 --> 00:43:58.480
threw my shoulder through a revolving door and

00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:02.980
I landed in a bank. And as that big debris cloud

00:44:02.980 --> 00:44:06.380
went by me, I was safe. I had shelter. I had

00:44:06.380 --> 00:44:09.599
refuge from it. But at that point, to your question,

00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:12.440
about a minute later, I hear that whoosh of the

00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:16.360
revolving door. And I look up and it's two of

00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:20.039
my guys. to a guy named uh john beck and rob

00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:23.300
donovan two young agents that were new just like

00:44:23.300 --> 00:44:27.219
me and they look terrible just like me um but

00:44:27.219 --> 00:44:29.840
man for the first time i think it's like an hour

00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:33.059
or so man i had life i had wind in my sails i

00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:35.260
was now part of a group again part of a team

00:44:35.260 --> 00:44:37.360
again and i knew i didn't know what we were going

00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:38.860
to do but i knew i was going to be much more

00:44:38.860 --> 00:44:43.070
effective moving forward So talk to me about

00:44:43.070 --> 00:44:46.269
how you ended up living most cop's dream, which

00:44:46.269 --> 00:44:53.769
is becoming a firefighter for a few hours. Yes,

00:44:53.989 --> 00:44:58.150
yes, yes. If you could have seen it, you would

00:44:58.150 --> 00:45:00.489
have, if it wasn't such a tragic situation, you

00:45:00.489 --> 00:45:02.030
would have been like, oh my gosh, these clowns

00:45:02.030 --> 00:45:06.110
are doing it all wrong. Man, we went out, we

00:45:06.110 --> 00:45:08.030
formed, we were in this lobby. We waited about

00:45:08.030 --> 00:45:10.889
10 minutes for that. cloud to dissipate a little

00:45:10.889 --> 00:45:13.110
bit and we formed two search parties and we went

00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:17.409
out um and we went back James we just at any

00:45:17.409 --> 00:45:19.429
point we could have turned north could have turned

00:45:19.429 --> 00:45:22.429
north and walked out of it uh but courage is

00:45:22.429 --> 00:45:24.949
a choice and maybe if I was by myself maybe that's

00:45:24.949 --> 00:45:27.030
what I would have done but I was with my dudes

00:45:27.030 --> 00:45:29.809
and uh we were going back we didn't even discuss

00:45:29.809 --> 00:45:33.510
it and and we went back with just naively thinking

00:45:33.510 --> 00:45:35.309
we were going to find survivors and we were just

00:45:35.309 --> 00:45:42.340
finding bodies And that hellscape, I call it,

00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:45.940
what it looked like in the moments as the sun

00:45:45.940 --> 00:45:47.420
started to come in a little bit and you're starting

00:45:47.420 --> 00:45:52.519
to make things out was total insanity. Everything

00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:55.980
was on fire. I went back to church in Vesey Street

00:45:55.980 --> 00:45:57.639
on this corner of the complex, and that's where

00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:02.539
I went every time. Man, just police cars were

00:46:02.539 --> 00:46:05.079
on fire. Ambulances were on fire. Gas tanks popping

00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.420
off. You know, they don't make this huge, big

00:46:07.420 --> 00:46:11.260
Hollywood explosion, I learned. And then office

00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:13.460
paper was everywhere. The area was covered in

00:46:13.460 --> 00:46:15.699
office paper. And that was all on fire. I mean,

00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:18.159
at the end of the day, my pants were like three

00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:19.719
inches shorter because I kept catching fire.

00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:23.300
The soles of my shoes were melted, malformed.

00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:28.449
But we're standing there. And there is one, I

00:46:28.449 --> 00:46:31.670
don't, it just still baffles me. Everything is

00:46:31.670 --> 00:46:34.570
destroyed except across, catty corner across

00:46:34.570 --> 00:46:37.050
the intersection is one New York City fire truck.

00:46:37.150 --> 00:46:39.809
And it is not damaged. It looks rough, but it's

00:46:39.809 --> 00:46:45.630
not damaged. And Rob, yeah, Rob said, hey, man,

00:46:45.690 --> 00:46:50.349
we should hook up a hose to that fire truck and

00:46:50.349 --> 00:46:53.469
start putting out all these fires. And honestly,

00:46:53.630 --> 00:46:55.130
as I write in the book, my first thought was

00:46:55.130 --> 00:46:57.409
not positive. I was like, that is dumb. i mean

00:46:57.409 --> 00:46:59.409
we don't know what we're doing how are we going

00:46:59.409 --> 00:47:02.090
to do that and honestly shamefully i say this

00:47:02.090 --> 00:47:05.789
i remember thinking at one point where are all

00:47:05.789 --> 00:47:10.730
the firefighters it's it just it's still i didn't

00:47:10.730 --> 00:47:13.889
have a grip on the toe the magnitude of what

00:47:13.889 --> 00:47:15.750
just happened i mean james you know what not

00:47:15.750 --> 00:47:19.969
now i know they're gone 343 of them just erased

00:47:19.969 --> 00:47:24.739
and uh and it would take time for units from

00:47:24.739 --> 00:47:26.719
all over the city you know to make their way

00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:31.000
in uh to that scene and so rob had the idea i

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:33.699
didn't have the idea well john before i can chime

00:47:33.699 --> 00:47:36.139
in and kill the idea john says you know what

00:47:36.139 --> 00:47:39.940
here's your dude you would love john uh i i was

00:47:39.940 --> 00:47:41.780
a volunteer firefighter back in the day back

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:44.940
in high school i bet i could remember it and

00:47:44.940 --> 00:47:47.400
uh and this is where frank larkin enters the

00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:49.300
story you mentioned frank earlier frank was a

00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:54.550
former ceo former uh emt rescue guy from maryland

00:47:54.550 --> 00:47:57.090
state police like he was mr everything he was

00:47:57.090 --> 00:48:00.050
a one -man task force frank uh frank knew a little

00:48:00.050 --> 00:48:02.650
had a little knowledge on it too so we go over

00:48:02.650 --> 00:48:04.610
there and i pull out the hose they start feeding

00:48:04.610 --> 00:48:08.210
it to me and um yeah frank and and john start

00:48:08.210 --> 00:48:11.150
you know throwing levers and turning knobs and

00:48:11.150 --> 00:48:12.949
i'm still not confident but sure enough water

00:48:12.949 --> 00:48:17.170
starts pouring out of this hose and um and uh

00:48:17.170 --> 00:48:20.510
we just they joined me on the nozzle and we became

00:48:20.510 --> 00:48:24.190
this amateur hour you know clown show uh firefighting

00:48:24.190 --> 00:48:27.530
team and and we had one mission really and that

00:48:27.530 --> 00:48:29.769
and rob said it he's like let's clear the intersection

00:48:29.769 --> 00:48:34.170
and that's what we did uh we just we took one

00:48:34.170 --> 00:48:36.469
car fire after another and we said we're just

00:48:36.469 --> 00:48:39.210
going to dominate this one little space we can't

00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:42.840
put out all the fires we can't find all the people

00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:45.619
or the survivors. We can't bring any kind of

00:48:45.619 --> 00:48:48.139
peace into this whole scene, but we can at least

00:48:48.139 --> 00:48:50.920
bring some stability and some peace into this

00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:53.300
little intersection. And I think that's a really

00:48:53.300 --> 00:48:56.300
good way to approach life. We can talk more about

00:48:56.300 --> 00:48:59.119
that later. But yeah, we were terrible at it.

00:48:59.139 --> 00:49:00.900
Yes, James, you were terrible at it at first.

00:49:01.729 --> 00:49:04.369
We figured it out. If I'm being honest, Rob figured

00:49:04.369 --> 00:49:06.190
it out the best. We were most effective when

00:49:06.190 --> 00:49:09.909
Rob was on the picture of it in my book. You

00:49:09.909 --> 00:49:13.190
can see and it's it's not pretty, but what we

00:49:13.190 --> 00:49:15.230
did our job. And here's a really cool part. I

00:49:15.230 --> 00:49:17.730
love looking back on this part of the story.

00:49:18.809 --> 00:49:21.340
Eventually, you know. firefighters from all over

00:49:21.340 --> 00:49:23.260
the city are making their way into the scene

00:49:23.260 --> 00:49:25.579
you know the professionals show up and they've

00:49:25.579 --> 00:49:28.139
got much bigger hoses and all these couplings

00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:29.940
and all that i don't even know what they're doing

00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:33.119
they're hooking up the hydrants and um and at

00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:37.260
no point did any of them tell us to stop you

00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:39.760
know uh none of them told us to get out of the

00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:43.900
way uh we were kind of honorary members there

00:49:43.900 --> 00:49:47.019
at least for an hour or so and and that was really

00:49:47.019 --> 00:49:49.800
cool it was just all hands on deck and Eventually,

00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:52.800
we literally ran out of rope. We reached the

00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.239
end of our line, and that's when we chose to

00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:58.519
step back, retreat a little bit, assess the situation,

00:49:58.619 --> 00:50:01.800
and figure out what we're going to do next. It's

00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:04.019
a beautiful story. Again, it's haunting, like

00:50:04.019 --> 00:50:06.079
you said, when you realize that the equipment

00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.179
was all there, whatever condition it was in,

00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:10.280
but none of the personnel were there. I can't

00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:12.800
imagine how horrendous that must have been, especially

00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.139
in this. There's a clip going around the internet

00:50:15.139 --> 00:50:18.769
again for some reason. not resurface, but become

00:50:18.769 --> 00:50:21.409
popular. And it's when one of the firefighters

00:50:21.409 --> 00:50:24.309
collapses after one of the towers comes down

00:50:24.309 --> 00:50:26.469
and he sees, and he knows exactly what's just

00:50:26.469 --> 00:50:28.730
happened and how many of his brothers, you know,

00:50:28.730 --> 00:50:31.170
he's lost in that collapse. So, so yeah, I can,

00:50:31.250 --> 00:50:32.949
I mean, I can't imagine that's the point and

00:50:32.949 --> 00:50:38.650
it breaks my heart thinking about it. So you,

00:50:38.690 --> 00:50:40.949
you have that situation. You're able to, as you

00:50:40.949 --> 00:50:43.599
said, you know, make a difference in that one

00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:46.360
area that you're actually in. How did the rest

00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:50.860
of that day kind of pay out? We did some other

00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:52.920
things. We went down to the mezzanine level and

00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:55.579
we joined some firefighters to search for some

00:50:55.579 --> 00:50:58.960
survivors. And then the whole partially collapsed

00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:01.440
down there. And so we were all called to evacuate

00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:05.260
there. And we did all that. And at the end of

00:51:05.260 --> 00:51:09.159
the day, we finally, Frank had a radio. And we

00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:11.159
finally heard where all the Secret Service agents

00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:14.880
were relocating. So, you know, this day was for

00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.699
us, at least for me, you know, it all started

00:51:17.699 --> 00:51:22.260
at 0846 when that first tower got hit. And this

00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:24.019
is somewhere between three and four o 'clock.

00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:27.179
The four of us decided to leave the scene to

00:51:27.179 --> 00:51:29.420
drive about 30 blocks north to Chelsea Piers

00:51:29.420 --> 00:51:32.920
to where the Secret Service kind of where our

00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.119
rendezvous point had been relocated. And and

00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:38.659
that's what we did. And we went up there. We

00:51:38.659 --> 00:51:41.099
got some basic, you know, some we weren't badly

00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:42.900
hurt or anything, but just, you know, cuts and

00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:45.260
bruises and needed oxygen for sure. And needed

00:51:45.260 --> 00:51:48.860
to flush everything out with water. And within

00:51:48.860 --> 00:51:50.699
an hour, though, I mean, I was there maybe an

00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:54.920
hour. I don't know. It was a logistical Herculean

00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.260
effort. But, you know, then I became a bunch

00:51:57.260 --> 00:51:59.139
of us became a part of that. The great 9 -11

00:51:59.139 --> 00:52:02.840
boat lift where I end up me and about a dozen

00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:05.929
agents. that lived in New Jersey just across

00:52:05.929 --> 00:52:08.389
the river, we ended up getting on a Nassau County

00:52:08.389 --> 00:52:11.909
police boat and taking the boat over across the

00:52:11.909 --> 00:52:15.429
river and got dropped in Hoboken where I lived

00:52:15.429 --> 00:52:19.369
and walked a few blocks, just kind of zombie

00:52:19.369 --> 00:52:23.110
walked, walked a few blocks home. And yeah, and

00:52:23.110 --> 00:52:26.610
that's when my wife walked up my final couple

00:52:26.610 --> 00:52:29.030
of flights of steps to the third floor apartment

00:52:29.030 --> 00:52:32.289
that I had and my wife opened the door and that's

00:52:32.289 --> 00:52:36.389
when, you know. yeah, she had spent most of the

00:52:36.389 --> 00:52:38.090
day thinking I was gone. And so we were able

00:52:38.090 --> 00:52:42.570
to kind of embrace and, and yeah, it was beautiful.

00:52:42.650 --> 00:52:46.289
It was messy, but it was beautiful. I had one

00:52:46.289 --> 00:52:49.289
of the Coast Guard members that were on the boat

00:52:49.289 --> 00:52:52.110
lift. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think wasn't

00:52:52.110 --> 00:52:55.510
it like half a million people that they evacuated

00:52:55.510 --> 00:52:57.949
with, you know, military boats, law enforcement

00:52:57.949 --> 00:53:00.869
boats, and then a load of civilian boats as well.

00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:04.480
In one day, it surpassed the number of evacuations

00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:07.260
of Dunkirk, the Battle of Dunkirk in World War

00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:10.639
II. I mean, it was just a Herculean effort. It's

00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:15.059
mind -boggling. But everyone responded. The Coast

00:53:15.059 --> 00:53:18.780
Guard put out a call and said, any vessel available,

00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:20.780
meet at Governor's Island. I was right off of

00:53:20.780 --> 00:53:25.050
the tip of Manhattan. I liked, as I write in

00:53:25.050 --> 00:53:27.829
the book, the citizens of New York showed up.

00:53:27.829 --> 00:53:29.389
They answered the call. They answered the bell.

00:53:29.909 --> 00:53:32.869
And I was able to get home that day. Because

00:53:32.869 --> 00:53:35.269
the only other way for me would have been walking

00:53:35.269 --> 00:53:39.550
across a bridge. Just amazing to see what people

00:53:39.550 --> 00:53:41.369
can do when they're all pulling in the same direction.

00:53:42.409 --> 00:53:44.030
Absolutely. I used the word civilian. I meant

00:53:44.030 --> 00:53:46.670
to use the word citizen. So one of the things

00:53:46.670 --> 00:53:49.119
that... everyone I've had on the show talks about

00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:51.820
is 9 -12. And you hear this even more recently,

00:53:51.940 --> 00:53:55.019
I miss 9 -12. And I'd say right now, we probably

00:53:55.019 --> 00:53:57.699
miss it even more than we have since, since it

00:53:57.699 --> 00:54:00.500
actually happened. But I love the way that you

00:54:00.500 --> 00:54:03.340
kind of dig into that citizen versus civilian.

00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:06.860
So let's talk about that for a moment. Yeah,

00:54:06.860 --> 00:54:10.170
yeah. I borrowed that from a good friend of mine,

00:54:10.230 --> 00:54:12.909
Clint Bruce, a former Navy SEAL, and asked him

00:54:12.909 --> 00:54:14.849
if I could put that in his book. And we were

00:54:14.849 --> 00:54:18.550
having coffee one day, and he started discussing

00:54:18.550 --> 00:54:21.190
the difference between a civilian and a citizen.

00:54:21.349 --> 00:54:24.510
And a civilian is me -focused. A civilian is

00:54:24.510 --> 00:54:26.550
someone who's just kind of going through life,

00:54:26.670 --> 00:54:28.769
and their situational awareness is close to zero.

00:54:30.110 --> 00:54:33.369
They're a consumer of society and they take,

00:54:33.429 --> 00:54:35.590
take, take, and they give only what they have

00:54:35.590 --> 00:54:38.650
to give. And they go through life and they're

00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:40.449
not necessarily bad or good. They're just kind

00:54:40.449 --> 00:54:43.670
of not having much of an impact on their community,

00:54:43.829 --> 00:54:46.630
wherever you are. But a citizen is different.

00:54:47.429 --> 00:54:50.829
You and I were part of the first responder community.

00:54:51.349 --> 00:54:53.389
That's a different set, but they're citizens.

00:54:56.119 --> 00:54:58.820
chooses to enter into hard times and in difficult

00:54:58.820 --> 00:55:00.659
places for the betterment of their community,

00:55:00.860 --> 00:55:03.280
right? They're not always consuming. Most of

00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:06.480
their time is often giving, thinking of others,

00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:09.400
elevating the needs of others above themselves.

00:55:10.019 --> 00:55:14.179
And I saw on September 11th and then in the days

00:55:14.179 --> 00:55:16.059
following, the weeks following, I saw citizens

00:55:16.059 --> 00:55:19.300
answer the bell. I mean, just. uh really choose

00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:22.159
to address the problems and the needs in their

00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.199
community in a really really beautiful way and

00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:26.699
um you know everyone in that bank for example

00:55:26.699 --> 00:55:28.960
when we made that search party we said who wants

00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:31.539
to go my recollection is everyone said yeah we'll

00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:34.280
go i mean they were i call them citizens they

00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.340
were citizens they were choosing to go back to

00:55:36.340 --> 00:55:39.400
where all the fire was uh so that we might be

00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:44.119
able to find some some survivors um is um it's

00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:46.780
a clear distinction and so i mean i I just challenge

00:55:46.780 --> 00:55:50.760
people. To serve your community, you don't have

00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:54.900
to be a first responder or a military member

00:55:54.900 --> 00:55:58.079
or whatever, or a public servant or a political

00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:01.900
official. You just have to be a citizen. And

00:56:01.900 --> 00:56:05.860
it's a very powerful thing when people are all

00:56:05.860 --> 00:56:10.079
pulled in the same direction. I hear this over

00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:12.139
and over again. Like I said, what we've seen

00:56:12.139 --> 00:56:14.780
that time, what we've seen, the Vegas shooting.

00:56:15.139 --> 00:56:17.420
It doesn't have to be some horrendous attack,

00:56:17.579 --> 00:56:20.719
but when things happen, the people that all band

00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.380
together and pick the car up off the pedestrian

00:56:23.380 --> 00:56:25.780
after they've been hit. We see this over and

00:56:25.780 --> 00:56:28.679
over and over again. I would argue that more

00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:30.860
often than not, you see it amongst the regular

00:56:30.860 --> 00:56:33.619
people. I would argue that a lot of people in

00:56:33.619 --> 00:56:36.159
politics are actually civilians, not citizens,

00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:40.869
and therein lies the problem. how do we nurture

00:56:40.869 --> 00:56:42.849
that because i believe that most people have

00:56:42.849 --> 00:56:45.230
that in their heart i really do sadly the problem

00:56:45.230 --> 00:56:47.510
is that we're getting these slivers as extremism

00:56:47.510 --> 00:56:50.150
blasted into us day in day out at the moment

00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:53.570
how do we nurture that you know goodness that

00:56:53.570 --> 00:56:55.929
i think most americans do have or anyone listening

00:56:55.929 --> 00:56:59.219
from whatever country they're from I think the

00:56:59.219 --> 00:57:01.659
pendulum swings, and when the pendulum swings

00:57:01.659 --> 00:57:03.619
and when it gets to its apex on one side, it's

00:57:03.619 --> 00:57:05.320
not good. When it gets to the other side, it's

00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:09.219
not good. And I think we need to focus on what

00:57:09.219 --> 00:57:11.260
we have in common more than anything, either

00:57:11.260 --> 00:57:15.340
as American citizens or citizens or civilians

00:57:15.340 --> 00:57:19.639
that are in this community, right? Focus on the

00:57:19.639 --> 00:57:22.719
things that bind us together more. I think you

00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.940
can... You can illuminate people's differences

00:57:25.940 --> 00:57:28.179
and different cultures and what they bring into

00:57:28.179 --> 00:57:32.239
it and allow people to be in their communities

00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:34.820
and to be in their cultures and keep some of

00:57:34.820 --> 00:57:37.579
those ways. I think that can be done. I don't

00:57:37.579 --> 00:57:39.940
think this is an either or proposition. I think

00:57:39.940 --> 00:57:42.599
it's an and both. But I think we often need to

00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:44.519
focus on what we have in common as Americans.

00:57:46.789 --> 00:57:50.570
I'll just say out loud, I'm more of a conservative

00:57:50.570 --> 00:57:53.710
guy. If I sat down with someone who's more of

00:57:53.710 --> 00:57:56.449
a liberal person, if we sat down and talked about

00:57:56.449 --> 00:57:59.469
everyday stuff, we're agreeing, James, on 80

00:57:59.469 --> 00:58:03.369
% of the issues. We really are. And even the

00:58:03.369 --> 00:58:05.590
things we're not agreeing on, we have the same

00:58:05.590 --> 00:58:07.449
end goal, the end objective, maybe just a different

00:58:07.449 --> 00:58:11.610
way of doing it. But man, in this hyper social

00:58:11.610 --> 00:58:15.260
media landscape that we live in, It's unfortunately

00:58:15.260 --> 00:58:18.039
those, I don't know if it's 10 % or on each side,

00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:20.159
on each end, I don't know, but whatever number

00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:22.920
it is, it's just so elevated and prominent when

00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:27.019
there's so many in the normie middle. And that

00:58:27.019 --> 00:58:28.659
doesn't mean you don't have values and you don't

00:58:28.659 --> 00:58:31.039
have things that you fight for and stand for.

00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:33.440
It just means you don't see the other side as

00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:35.320
someone who thinks differently as an enemy or

00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.139
as a bad person or someone that. uh where their

00:58:38.139 --> 00:58:40.239
idea their thoughts are going to be dangerous

00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:43.039
to me or something um that's what i love about

00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:45.059
your since i've been following you that like

00:58:45.059 --> 00:58:49.139
your social media stuff is on repeat it's just

00:58:49.139 --> 00:58:52.340
it's like citizens in action really you show

00:58:52.340 --> 00:58:54.739
these videos and like you said so many of them

00:58:54.739 --> 00:58:56.519
are not people in the first responder community

00:58:56.519 --> 00:58:59.039
they're not the guardians they're normal everyday

00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:01.699
people I think it was you, did you post one the

00:59:01.699 --> 00:59:04.719
other day or two ago with this civilian who just

00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:06.619
grabs a wounded police officer and drags him

00:59:06.619 --> 00:59:08.360
out of a firefight or something? Was that you

00:59:08.360 --> 00:59:10.400
or was that somebody else? Yeah, and he was a

00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:13.699
former incarcerated man as well. So that doesn't

00:59:13.699 --> 00:59:16.219
define him, of course, but it just illustrates

00:59:16.219 --> 00:59:18.820
that at one point, the other side of the law

00:59:18.820 --> 00:59:21.079
could be very anti -police, but it was the opposite.

00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:24.360
And he sees a man down, not a police officer.

00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:27.159
Now he sees a man down, a citizen down. And he

00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:29.760
grabbed, he entered in, he literally goes into

00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:32.820
a firefight, grabs the guy and helps pull him

00:59:32.820 --> 00:59:35.380
out of that. Oh my gosh. I was, yeah, you, you,

00:59:35.380 --> 00:59:38.860
you rocked me with that one. Well done. Well,

00:59:38.920 --> 00:59:41.579
I think this is it. I mean, all I, and this is

00:59:41.579 --> 00:59:43.320
the same with these conversations. I've had people

00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:45.760
on the show that are extremely right -leaning,

00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:48.780
extremely left -leaning in their, you know, certain

00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:52.420
areas, but. even then you can start in the middle

00:59:52.420 --> 00:59:55.239
the shared humanity you know and the moment you

00:59:55.239 --> 00:59:57.139
kind of deviate too far okay well let's let's

00:59:57.139 --> 00:59:58.619
just bring it back you know let's just have this

00:59:58.619 --> 01:00:01.820
conversation and then most of us when you see

01:00:01.820 --> 01:00:03.619
you know people of different faiths different

01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:06.960
sexualities you know whatever the thing is then

01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.079
that becomes something as you said that you celebrate

01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:11.079
that's that's a nuance it's an interesting different

01:00:11.079 --> 01:00:13.579
tell me what it's like to be aboriginal in australia

01:00:13.579 --> 01:00:15.860
or you know whatever the that the thing is but

01:00:15.860 --> 01:00:19.489
at first Whether you're in the outback or in

01:00:19.489 --> 01:00:25.170
the frozen Alaskan territory somewhere, you care

01:00:25.170 --> 01:00:29.190
about your children's safety, feeding your family,

01:00:29.369 --> 01:00:32.070
the comfort probably of whatever animals that

01:00:32.070 --> 01:00:33.650
you have. I mean, most of us, it's dogs around

01:00:33.650 --> 01:00:35.969
the planet. These are things that we all share.

01:00:36.170 --> 01:00:38.650
And we don't want our stuff stolen. And we want

01:00:38.650 --> 01:00:41.090
to feel deep love. And we want to be a protector.

01:00:41.510 --> 01:00:44.780
So the moment that you... Throw that all the

01:00:44.780 --> 01:00:46.900
way because someone wears a red hat or a blue

01:00:46.900 --> 01:00:50.300
hat and disregard everything else at the detriment

01:00:50.300 --> 01:00:52.579
of actually your nation that we're seeing at

01:00:52.579 --> 01:00:55.039
the moment. That's what just, I mean, it just

01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:58.219
kills me because most of us, as you said, we

01:00:58.219 --> 01:01:03.139
just want to be a functioning member of our community

01:01:03.139 --> 01:01:06.480
collectively and watch our children grow up,

01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.219
make sure they're safe, make sure they're fed,

01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:11.280
and then kind of help them become the next generation.

01:01:13.059 --> 01:01:15.340
Absolutely. And all you want to do is pass that

01:01:15.340 --> 01:01:19.219
down. And so as a father, as a father of four

01:01:19.219 --> 01:01:22.059
sons, for me, for example, I have to make sure

01:01:22.059 --> 01:01:23.920
of what my boys are watching and what they're

01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:26.300
hearing and what they're... And if it's counter

01:01:26.300 --> 01:01:29.340
to the values that my wife and I, their mother,

01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.699
are teaching them, I'm like, no, no, we're not.

01:01:34.789 --> 01:01:36.889
You're disparaging an entire group of people

01:01:36.889 --> 01:01:40.789
because of what some Yahoo on YouTube said? No,

01:01:40.929 --> 01:01:44.590
let's find one of those people. Let's go talk

01:01:44.590 --> 01:01:47.070
to them. Let's bring them in. Let's have coffee

01:01:47.070 --> 01:01:48.769
with them. Let's have them over for dinner. Let's

01:01:48.769 --> 01:01:52.030
go shovel the ice off of their sidewalk during

01:01:52.030 --> 01:01:55.050
a snowstorm. All of these things, right? Let's

01:01:55.050 --> 01:01:59.389
do that and see how people interact. And we've

01:01:59.389 --> 01:02:01.489
been able to do that successfully in our little

01:02:01.489 --> 01:02:06.119
community. But the voices, yeah, from the outside,

01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:10.320
the voices on that toxic far right, far left,

01:02:10.420 --> 01:02:13.260
and it's just amplified by the social media.

01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:16.460
As a parent, you have to be on it. You have to

01:02:16.460 --> 01:02:19.400
be on it. And you have to make a stand and say,

01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:21.500
no, this is not who we are, right? And you have

01:02:21.500 --> 01:02:23.440
to really be a watchdog, be that watchman on

01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:28.380
the wall to kind of shepherd your children through

01:02:28.380 --> 01:02:30.980
that. Because if you're not teaching them, the

01:02:30.980 --> 01:02:33.469
world is. And who knows what they're getting

01:02:33.469 --> 01:02:36.849
from the world, right? So that's the way we view

01:02:36.849 --> 01:02:40.030
it. And that's how we have to get the young folks

01:02:40.030 --> 01:02:44.650
to just kind of be open -minded and see each

01:02:44.650 --> 01:02:48.750
other as citizens and focus often on what we

01:02:48.750 --> 01:02:50.809
all have in common and the shared values that

01:02:50.809 --> 01:02:53.349
we all have in common as opposed to just blasting

01:02:53.349 --> 01:02:56.750
people. I was going to talk about this later,

01:02:56.849 --> 01:02:58.710
but I think this is a good place to put that

01:02:58.710 --> 01:03:03.369
in now. You in the book talk about Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

01:03:04.369 --> 01:03:07.710
And it's interesting because there is a strong

01:03:07.710 --> 01:03:09.750
parallel. When I actually put him in Instagram,

01:03:10.030 --> 01:03:12.909
and there were a lot of videos where there's

01:03:12.909 --> 01:03:14.409
been a dramatization. I think it's literally,

01:03:14.469 --> 01:03:16.610
ironically, a film about him just about to come

01:03:16.610 --> 01:03:20.679
out. I grew up in a Christian, I wouldn't say

01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:22.980
even a Christian family. I was exposed to Christianity.

01:03:23.340 --> 01:03:26.519
So I went to St. Mark's school, for example,

01:03:26.619 --> 01:03:29.000
and we had every, I forget what it was, Monday

01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:32.099
morning, we had some sort of service and went

01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:35.940
to Sunday school in my local church. And it was

01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:37.820
like Church of England, so it was very doomy

01:03:37.820 --> 01:03:40.119
gloomy and I wasn't completely enamored with

01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:43.139
it, but I absolutely took away the lessons of

01:03:43.139 --> 01:03:45.760
compassion and empathy and community and service.

01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:51.199
And when I look at this landscape now, I feel

01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:55.960
like that religion has been hijacked by people

01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.900
who are claiming to be under it, but the actions

01:03:58.900 --> 01:04:01.659
are nothing. They do not reflect Christianity.

01:04:01.659 --> 01:04:04.019
They do not reflect the actions of Christ. Now,

01:04:04.059 --> 01:04:07.920
a big part of your book is obviously your faith

01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.500
base, your Christianity perspective that you

01:04:10.500 --> 01:04:14.280
have. Talk to me about that, being from that

01:04:14.280 --> 01:04:18.780
faith and seeing. um you know voices somewhat

01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:22.840
hijacking um a religion and then doing deeds

01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:25.039
that would would i would argue be the complete

01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:26.760
opposite of what the teachings are trying to

01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:31.480
tell us yeah uh for me as christian you have

01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:36.300
to yeah those are tricky waters to navigate and

01:04:36.300 --> 01:04:38.460
trying to navigate them is kind of like a like

01:04:38.460 --> 01:04:42.099
a minefield sometimes you have to focus on For

01:04:42.099 --> 01:04:45.920
me, the scriptures are holy. The New Testament,

01:04:45.980 --> 01:04:48.000
the Old Testament, the Bible, it's holy, it's

01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:51.679
inerrant. And oftentimes I read things in scriptures

01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:54.440
and see things in scriptures that make me uncomfortable,

01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:57.119
that make me like, wow, is that really true?

01:04:57.280 --> 01:05:02.480
Man, that's hard. But I come to expect that.

01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:05.659
I mean, you know, God says in the book of Isaiah

01:05:05.659 --> 01:05:07.460
that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts

01:05:07.460 --> 01:05:09.840
and his ways are higher than our ways. So it

01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:12.599
shouldn't shock me that. the way that the the

01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:14.760
creator of the universe set things up is going

01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:17.440
to sometimes offend my modern sensibilities right

01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:20.079
and and i have to wrestle with that and there's

01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:23.739
and there's a tension there um but at no point

01:05:23.739 --> 01:05:25.840
should uh should those scriptures should the

01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.619
word be you know like a a club that you're gonna

01:05:28.619 --> 01:05:31.559
bludgeon uh someone over the head for uh the

01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:33.340
the scriptures are very the commands of jesus

01:05:33.340 --> 01:05:35.679
if you just look at the what we call the red

01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:37.460
letters you know the words of jesus are very

01:05:37.460 --> 01:05:41.050
clear uh speak truth Speak God's truth, but speak

01:05:41.050 --> 01:05:43.849
it in love and speak it with compassion. And

01:05:43.849 --> 01:05:47.469
I think it's, there's this, as I'm trying to

01:05:47.469 --> 01:05:51.750
teach my boys, it's unloving to, in the name

01:05:51.750 --> 01:05:54.530
of being nice, to not speak truth and just let

01:05:54.530 --> 01:05:57.889
people say or do things that they think are,

01:05:57.949 --> 01:06:01.110
that you know is not God's best for them. But

01:06:01.110 --> 01:06:04.769
at the same time. You have to do that in a loving

01:06:04.769 --> 01:06:06.789
way because you know what? I care about you,

01:06:06.849 --> 01:06:11.030
right? Our tactic is not to hit people over the

01:06:11.030 --> 01:06:13.570
head with the Bible. Our tactic is to have them

01:06:13.570 --> 01:06:17.510
over for dinner and to love on them and show

01:06:17.510 --> 01:06:21.250
them kindness, show them compassion. And at some

01:06:21.250 --> 01:06:24.010
point, you earn the right to be heard about whatever

01:06:24.010 --> 01:06:29.630
your faith is, right? So that, for me... I have

01:06:29.630 --> 01:06:32.349
to focus on the granular level, on my personal

01:06:32.349 --> 01:06:34.530
interactions with people who may not see the

01:06:34.530 --> 01:06:38.090
world and see faith the way I do. And having

01:06:38.090 --> 01:06:42.130
kids in my home, like friends of my sons that

01:06:42.130 --> 01:06:44.530
are in my home that may not think that way, all

01:06:44.530 --> 01:06:49.210
that is good. But they're seeing more of the

01:06:49.210 --> 01:06:53.409
compassionate side. I mean, you need to be, as

01:06:53.409 --> 01:06:58.269
a guy I follow says, You know, be the be the

01:06:58.269 --> 01:07:00.889
the lamb of God for your children will be the

01:07:00.889 --> 01:07:04.829
line of Judah. You know, you know, you lamb of

01:07:04.829 --> 01:07:06.349
God with your children, but the line of Judah

01:07:06.349 --> 01:07:09.909
for your children. And so that's that's a delicate

01:07:09.909 --> 01:07:14.610
that's a delicate walk to to walk. But it's the

01:07:14.610 --> 01:07:18.090
walk. And so for me as a father, my wife and

01:07:18.090 --> 01:07:20.409
I consult on this frequently. And when we see

01:07:20.409 --> 01:07:23.210
things from maybe it's Christian leaders or or

01:07:23.210 --> 01:07:28.110
people that I mean, some of the. the toxic hateful

01:07:28.110 --> 01:07:31.489
stuff coming from, from, from that, from, I'll

01:07:31.489 --> 01:07:33.170
just have to say my community is from people

01:07:33.170 --> 01:07:37.530
that are new to the faith sometimes. And I don't

01:07:37.530 --> 01:07:39.250
think they have a real foundation in the scriptures

01:07:39.250 --> 01:07:44.809
or I question. It makes me question their true

01:07:44.809 --> 01:07:47.750
belief at all, because the gospels say, the Christian

01:07:47.750 --> 01:07:50.170
gospels say that when the spirit of God indwells

01:07:50.170 --> 01:07:52.889
you, when you've made the decision to accept

01:07:52.889 --> 01:07:55.250
Jesus into your heart, for example, that that

01:07:55.250 --> 01:07:57.010
spirit of God indwells you, there will be fruit.

01:07:57.070 --> 01:07:59.389
You'll see fruits, love, kindness, patience,

01:07:59.570 --> 01:08:02.349
goodness, gentleness, self -control. Those are

01:08:02.349 --> 01:08:04.969
some of the fruits of the spirits from Galatians

01:08:04.969 --> 01:08:09.940
5. Well, if I'm saying that. a believer who says

01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:13.320
he is, but he's spewing hate and, and anger and

01:08:13.320 --> 01:08:16.239
calling names. And I don't see any of those fruits

01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:18.939
as listed in the scripture. I'm like, brother,

01:08:19.060 --> 01:08:24.399
you're a fraud. Um, so it's, so I have to call

01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:26.239
it out. I have to call it out, especially with

01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:28.659
my kids and, and, and make sure that they see

01:08:28.659 --> 01:08:31.979
what's genuine and what's not. See, the other

01:08:31.979 --> 01:08:34.819
area where I see is, is a lack of courage. And

01:08:34.819 --> 01:08:36.159
we were talking about that a lot, having the

01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:39.210
courage to, to move forward. But, One of the

01:08:39.210 --> 01:08:41.789
biggest areas that we're lacking is moral courage.

01:08:41.869 --> 01:08:44.489
When something is simply wrong, and it might

01:08:44.489 --> 01:08:47.350
be to people of a different faith or whatever

01:08:47.350 --> 01:08:50.649
it is, but when something is simply draw a line

01:08:50.649 --> 01:08:53.550
in the sand wrong, there is a lot of silence

01:08:53.550 --> 01:08:56.430
at the moment. So I had actually really hadn't

01:08:56.430 --> 01:08:58.630
heard of Dietrich before. So kind of educate

01:08:58.630 --> 01:09:01.609
us on who he was. And let's talk about the courage

01:09:01.609 --> 01:09:04.689
in this case, obviously, in Christianity to stand

01:09:04.689 --> 01:09:07.829
up. and actually be a voice when atrocities are

01:09:07.829 --> 01:09:10.930
happening around you. Yeah, Bonhoeffer was a

01:09:10.930 --> 01:09:14.770
pastor in Germany during the rise of the Nazi

01:09:14.770 --> 01:09:18.779
party in the 1930s in Germany. You know, the

01:09:18.779 --> 01:09:21.180
Nazis were making all kinds of noise, just from

01:09:21.180 --> 01:09:23.600
a historical perspective. But at first, they

01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:26.220
weren't coming after the Christians. And if you

01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:28.140
look, if you do an examination of the Christian

01:09:28.140 --> 01:09:30.960
church in Germany during that rise, there were

01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:34.840
not a lot of bold, courageous leaders in the

01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:36.640
Christian church speaking out against this. They're

01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:39.300
like, well, you know what? They're crazy. They're

01:09:39.300 --> 01:09:41.359
saying all these evil things. But you know what?

01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:44.409
They're not coming after us. Well, Bonhoeffer

01:09:44.409 --> 01:09:46.350
during that time was one of the few German pastors

01:09:46.350 --> 01:09:50.369
that was just out loud, you know, condemning

01:09:50.369 --> 01:09:54.850
Nazi ideology and so forth and actually working

01:09:54.850 --> 01:09:56.890
to subvert it and all that kind of stuff. Well,

01:09:56.989 --> 01:10:00.920
his friends, associates. The heat was on. It

01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:02.640
was rumored that he was going to be arrested,

01:10:02.739 --> 01:10:05.399
and they convinced him to flee to America, and

01:10:05.399 --> 01:10:09.420
he did. He fled to America, and he's there, and

01:10:09.420 --> 01:10:11.319
he's safe, as I write in the book, because he's

01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:14.760
in America, and this is late 1930s, and he lasts

01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:20.119
like two weeks. He just knew in his guts that

01:10:20.119 --> 01:10:23.279
it was God's will. The smart thing was, hey,

01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:25.939
get out of here. The heat is on. Go for safety.

01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:28.979
But he's like, this is not God's will for me.

01:10:29.020 --> 01:10:31.699
I'm supposed to be back fighting the good fight

01:10:31.699 --> 01:10:35.899
and speaking truth against evil. And so after

01:10:35.899 --> 01:10:38.600
about two weeks, he goes back to Nazi Germany.

01:10:38.739 --> 01:10:41.000
And I mean, his story is fascinating. I mean,

01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:44.180
you read it and you're right. There is a movie

01:10:44.180 --> 01:10:47.859
coming out soon. I mean, he becomes, he has like

01:10:47.859 --> 01:10:50.199
seminary on the run. He's teaching in different

01:10:50.199 --> 01:10:53.100
places. He doesn't stay in one place for more

01:10:53.100 --> 01:10:54.960
than two nights at a time or something like that.

01:10:55.619 --> 01:10:59.560
He cooperates with the German resistance inside

01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:02.460
the German military. There's some people say

01:11:02.460 --> 01:11:05.000
he even worked for British intelligence or as

01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:08.840
a courier for a little bit. I mean, he just boldly.

01:11:09.199 --> 01:11:12.500
And he's even associated or linked through associations

01:11:12.500 --> 01:11:15.619
with one of the assassination attempts on Adolf

01:11:15.619 --> 01:11:20.960
Hitler. But he eventually gets arrested and he

01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:24.579
spends his last final year in a German prison.

01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:26.739
And right at the end of World War II, before

01:11:26.739 --> 01:11:30.239
the Nazi collapse, he's executed. He's hung.

01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:34.800
And I think reading his readings and studying

01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:38.090
a man like that. um we're all called to be i

01:11:38.090 --> 01:11:42.250
mean he was built he was on this earth for that

01:11:42.250 --> 01:11:47.869
fight uh for that reason and he died but man

01:11:47.869 --> 01:11:50.590
he died with a full heart a full heart of courage

01:11:50.590 --> 01:11:54.090
um because he was he was living out god's plan

01:11:54.090 --> 01:11:56.489
for his life it was just there was just such

01:11:56.489 --> 01:11:58.750
but i give a quote there and i'm gonna butcher

01:11:58.750 --> 01:12:01.840
it um But there was a German doctor that witnessed

01:12:01.840 --> 01:12:04.180
the execution and said something to the effect

01:12:04.180 --> 01:12:06.859
of, I've never seen a man die so willingly to

01:12:06.859 --> 01:12:11.300
the will of God. He just did it. He laid it all

01:12:11.300 --> 01:12:13.619
down because he knew he was doing what he was

01:12:13.619 --> 01:12:16.119
created to do. And really, the heart and soul

01:12:16.119 --> 01:12:20.770
of my book is all about that. is pursuing the

01:12:20.770 --> 01:12:24.529
reason why you were born at this time, in this

01:12:24.529 --> 01:12:27.869
place, in this particular community for a reason,

01:12:27.909 --> 01:12:29.729
for a purpose. Now, what is it? Let's figure

01:12:29.729 --> 01:12:31.470
out what it is. And now let's spend the rest

01:12:31.470 --> 01:12:33.649
of our days getting after it, bringing light

01:12:33.649 --> 01:12:36.210
into darkness, bringing goodness into the hard

01:12:36.210 --> 01:12:39.890
places. Because this world is full of problems,

01:12:39.970 --> 01:12:43.189
James. And I think you and I and everyone were

01:12:43.189 --> 01:12:45.630
created to be part of the solution for at least

01:12:45.630 --> 01:12:48.949
one. See, I couldn't agree more. When I was reading

01:12:48.949 --> 01:12:52.029
it, I was just, you know, this is it. And it's

01:12:52.029 --> 01:12:53.850
something that I've actually been kind of thinking

01:12:53.850 --> 01:12:56.529
about recently. How many times do you hear people

01:12:56.529 --> 01:12:58.689
say, oh, if there was a time machine, I'd go

01:12:58.689 --> 01:13:01.909
back and kill Hitler? Well, would you, though?

01:13:02.170 --> 01:13:05.250
Because Dietrich was there at that moment, and

01:13:05.250 --> 01:13:08.090
he had such moral courage and such faith and

01:13:08.090 --> 01:13:10.710
belief that this was, as I said, the right thing

01:13:10.710 --> 01:13:13.529
to do, regardless of all the politics and all

01:13:13.529 --> 01:13:16.779
that stuff. that it ultimately ended, you know,

01:13:16.779 --> 01:13:19.159
he gave his life. And it's something that, you

01:13:19.159 --> 01:13:21.359
know, so many people listening have said, if

01:13:21.359 --> 01:13:23.420
that, you know, if we ever come to that point,

01:13:23.500 --> 01:13:25.119
I will give my life trying to rescue someone

01:13:25.119 --> 01:13:26.920
from a fire in a gunfight, you know, whatever

01:13:26.920 --> 01:13:30.579
it is. And we, this is it. We are there now.

01:13:30.680 --> 01:13:33.239
We are just stepped out of that time machine.

01:13:33.340 --> 01:13:35.880
And there are elements of society at the moment,

01:13:35.979 --> 01:13:37.859
whether it's domestic, whether it's international,

01:13:37.979 --> 01:13:41.199
where our voices actually can turn things around.

01:13:41.739 --> 01:13:44.699
So you've found that time machine. You've stepped

01:13:44.699 --> 01:13:47.460
out. What are you going to do today? And this

01:13:47.460 --> 01:13:49.539
is what I was so inspired by his story about.

01:13:50.279 --> 01:13:53.060
And that's what leaves a legacy. You know, the

01:13:53.060 --> 01:13:56.039
impact of let's just stick with Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

01:13:56.039 --> 01:13:58.119
His impact didn't end when he died, when he was

01:13:58.119 --> 01:14:00.199
hanging from that rope in a German prison yard.

01:14:01.020 --> 01:14:04.180
I mean, his writings became exponentially more

01:14:04.180 --> 01:14:09.130
popular after his death. just copy after copy

01:14:09.130 --> 01:14:12.449
of his writings, of his teachings. There's books

01:14:12.449 --> 01:14:15.350
about him. There's movies about him. If he had

01:14:15.350 --> 01:14:18.069
been the quiet, nice guy and just shepherded

01:14:18.069 --> 01:14:20.470
his little flock and stayed out of the fray,

01:14:20.590 --> 01:14:23.350
you and I would have no idea who he is today,

01:14:23.529 --> 01:14:26.930
right? Absolutely. Have you ever seen the footage,

01:14:27.130 --> 01:14:32.069
the BBC footage, I think, of an auditorium and

01:14:32.069 --> 01:14:34.029
there's a woman, Esther Ransom, I think is the

01:14:34.029 --> 01:14:36.729
person who's interviewing. And there's a gentleman,

01:14:36.890 --> 01:14:39.470
elderly gentleman, Nicholas Winton. And he's

01:14:39.470 --> 01:14:43.130
in this big audience. And they say, it was kept

01:14:43.130 --> 01:14:46.409
secret for so many years, but you actually managed

01:14:46.409 --> 01:14:49.289
to get hundreds of children out of, I forget

01:14:49.289 --> 01:14:52.609
which European country it was, but he rescued

01:14:52.609 --> 01:14:55.689
hundreds of children from the Nazis. And then

01:14:55.689 --> 01:14:58.810
he said, can anyone in this room who was rescued

01:14:58.810 --> 01:15:01.729
by Nicholas stand up? And the whole auditorium

01:15:01.729 --> 01:15:03.850
stands up. And these are all people that are

01:15:03.850 --> 01:15:06.579
kind of middle -aged now. That's the same thing.

01:15:06.659 --> 01:15:08.760
Imagine the courage, because obviously he risked

01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:10.960
his life saving these children. And now this

01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:12.920
room, and you think about how many children they

01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:15.000
had. And now as we hear, this was probably in

01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:18.100
the 80s, this interview. So now how many grandchildren,

01:15:18.380 --> 01:15:21.359
great -grandchildren. So tens of thousands of

01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:23.899
people were saved again by his moral courage.

01:15:24.939 --> 01:15:30.109
Right, right. The impact, you can't even measure

01:15:30.109 --> 01:15:31.949
it, the ripple effect through generations and

01:15:31.949 --> 01:15:34.850
generations. That's why what we do and what we

01:15:34.850 --> 01:15:38.270
say today matters. And that's one of the reasons

01:15:38.270 --> 01:15:40.869
I wanted to write this book, was to give an historical

01:15:40.869 --> 01:15:44.550
account, to add something to the history of 9

01:15:44.550 --> 01:15:48.430
-11, to give my sons something to hold on to,

01:15:48.470 --> 01:15:50.310
but to have a message that can never be erased

01:15:50.310 --> 01:15:52.770
and never be taken away, and for it to have an

01:15:52.770 --> 01:15:55.229
impact, hopefully, for generations through my

01:15:55.229 --> 01:15:57.310
family and through the people that I'm... I'm

01:15:57.310 --> 01:16:00.329
trying to impact today with my life. Absolutely.

01:16:00.510 --> 01:16:03.149
I mean, what is the point of history leaving

01:16:03.149 --> 01:16:06.250
lessons if we refuse to learn from them? We just

01:16:06.250 --> 01:16:08.010
look at them as, oh, that was sad. Let's move

01:16:08.010 --> 01:16:10.210
on. No, no, no. There's so much more than that.

01:16:11.850 --> 01:16:15.880
Yes. Well, interesting kind of intersection.

01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:19.239
Obviously, you are in the Secret Service. A few

01:16:19.239 --> 01:16:22.159
days later, President Bush comes to ground zero.

01:16:22.260 --> 01:16:25.319
So talk to me about that. You've gone home, back

01:16:25.319 --> 01:16:27.359
to New Jersey. You've seen your wife. How does

01:16:27.359 --> 01:16:31.819
that kind of unfold? Wow, that was so powerful.

01:16:32.859 --> 01:16:36.539
The next day, September 12th, just kind of trying

01:16:36.539 --> 01:16:39.020
to recalibrate and see what's going on with the

01:16:39.020 --> 01:16:41.899
world. Everything is upside down. It was later

01:16:41.899 --> 01:16:44.420
that evening. So that's Tuesday, excuse me, Wednesday,

01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:46.920
the 12th, that a news report came out. I was

01:16:46.920 --> 01:16:48.920
hanging out with some other agents and news report

01:16:48.920 --> 01:16:50.760
came out that, you know, the White House announces

01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:52.560
that President Bush will be visiting Ground Zero

01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:58.000
on Friday, the 14th. And man, it was game on

01:16:58.000 --> 01:16:59.899
at that point. The next day we spent getting

01:16:59.899 --> 01:17:03.199
new equipment and everything and getting ready

01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:06.789
and trying to do some kind of. advance to prepare

01:17:06.789 --> 01:17:08.409
for the president. You know, the president of

01:17:08.409 --> 01:17:09.989
the United States comes to your city at least

01:17:09.989 --> 01:17:14.029
10 days of advance work and, you know, and planning

01:17:14.029 --> 01:17:17.770
and working with the local authorities. And this

01:17:17.770 --> 01:17:20.189
was like a day and a half. And I was very, very

01:17:20.189 --> 01:17:22.770
junior age and I didn't participate in that advance

01:17:22.770 --> 01:17:26.210
work, but I was called to. yeah to serve on on

01:17:26.210 --> 01:17:28.369
september 14th friday morning when president

01:17:28.369 --> 01:17:31.649
bush came and as uh as the lord would have it

01:17:31.649 --> 01:17:33.930
i think that i was back at that almost that same

01:17:33.930 --> 01:17:36.630
intersection where i spent my battlefield on

01:17:36.630 --> 01:17:38.949
september 11th i was back at that same place

01:17:38.949 --> 01:17:43.250
and man We had a plan in place, a loose plan

01:17:43.250 --> 01:17:45.930
in place, but it quickly went out the window

01:17:45.930 --> 01:17:48.930
and things got sloppy and messy really quickly

01:17:48.930 --> 01:17:51.569
because, you know, the governor was there, the

01:17:51.569 --> 01:17:53.470
mayor was there and all the important people

01:17:53.470 --> 01:17:55.350
who want to be part of this huge event. And,

01:17:55.350 --> 01:17:58.529
man, it just it got nasty pretty quickly. So

01:17:58.529 --> 01:18:00.850
I was just just over a year as a Secret Service

01:18:00.850 --> 01:18:03.649
agent. And at one point I look over and I'm I'm

01:18:03.649 --> 01:18:05.510
five or six feet from President Bush. That is

01:18:05.510 --> 01:18:07.649
not supposed to happen for such a junior agent.

01:18:09.609 --> 01:18:12.170
and so what that allowed me to do and this is

01:18:12.170 --> 01:18:15.109
where i just i'm student history i saw uh as

01:18:15.109 --> 01:18:16.750
i write in my book i saw commander -in -chief

01:18:16.750 --> 01:18:20.010
hear directly from his people like from the common

01:18:20.010 --> 01:18:24.050
man uh hear it and receive it um there was a

01:18:24.050 --> 01:18:27.350
blood lust in the air there was anger uh they

01:18:27.350 --> 01:18:29.630
were not angry towards him and all of that was

01:18:29.630 --> 01:18:33.600
friendly and civil but They were speaking to

01:18:33.600 --> 01:18:36.340
their president. This was, you know, the steam

01:18:36.340 --> 01:18:40.140
fitter, the firefighter, the construction worker.

01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:44.739
These are these are real rough people and they're

01:18:44.739 --> 01:18:48.000
angry and they're telling their president. Eyeball

01:18:48.000 --> 01:18:50.500
to eyeball, you know, you get these guys. We

01:18:50.500 --> 01:18:53.199
want justice. We want revenge. And a lot of words

01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:54.899
were said. I mean, I can't even repeat some of

01:18:54.899 --> 01:18:59.100
the words. It would make you blush. But, yeah,

01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:01.239
he heard it. He received it. And I saw him. And

01:19:01.239 --> 01:19:03.239
then, you know, moments later, he's grabbing

01:19:03.239 --> 01:19:05.859
that megaphone. And that moment, I was just a

01:19:05.859 --> 01:19:08.399
few feet from him when he said, you know, I hear

01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:09.880
you. The rest of the world hears you. And the

01:19:09.880 --> 01:19:11.319
people who knocked down these buildings will

01:19:11.319 --> 01:19:14.609
hear all of us soon, right? the place just went

01:19:14.609 --> 01:19:18.090
nuts, USA chance. And I just, I'm getting goosebumps

01:19:18.090 --> 01:19:20.470
right now. I'm just thinking about it. And so

01:19:20.470 --> 01:19:24.090
it's a powerful, powerful moment. And I have

01:19:24.090 --> 01:19:27.090
no doubt that, that, that he would hearken back

01:19:27.090 --> 01:19:29.989
to that in the, in the coming years. And when

01:19:29.989 --> 01:19:32.829
things got hard and that, you know, he remembered

01:19:32.829 --> 01:19:34.890
the promise he made to those people, which was,

01:19:34.970 --> 01:19:38.140
you know, that there would be justice. So not

01:19:38.140 --> 01:19:40.479
to get into the politics of, you know, what happened

01:19:40.479 --> 01:19:43.779
the next 10, 15 years, but that moment, man,

01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:48.079
was powerful and made it one of the high watermarks

01:19:48.079 --> 01:19:52.300
of my professional career. So as we kind of get

01:19:52.300 --> 01:19:55.279
away from that event now, you know, kind of just

01:19:55.279 --> 01:19:57.380
go into the next couple of decades of your career,

01:19:57.420 --> 01:20:00.039
did you find yourself in the Middle East in any

01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:03.590
of those roles at all? I did. I went to 42 different

01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:07.590
countries during my career. I was in Jordan,

01:20:07.850 --> 01:20:12.449
Turkey, United Arab Emirates. I was never in

01:20:12.449 --> 01:20:17.930
Iraq or Israel. And then a lot of different spots

01:20:17.930 --> 01:20:20.909
in Africa as well. So I found myself going back

01:20:20.909 --> 01:20:25.630
there quite a bit. And then you said you were

01:20:25.630 --> 01:20:28.050
a junior agent before. Did you end up becoming

01:20:28.050 --> 01:20:31.689
close protection with the president? With President

01:20:31.689 --> 01:20:34.109
Bush? With any of them as you progress through

01:20:34.109 --> 01:20:36.399
your career. Yeah, as I progressed through my

01:20:36.399 --> 01:20:38.460
career, you know, I did my first 10 years in

01:20:38.460 --> 01:20:40.340
New York, and then we go to what we call phase

01:20:40.340 --> 01:20:42.779
two of our career. And that's when you go into

01:20:42.779 --> 01:20:45.399
permanent, everyday protective mode, protection

01:20:45.399 --> 01:20:49.399
mode. And I chose, that's when President Bush,

01:20:49.520 --> 01:20:52.180
George W. Bush was coming out of office in 09.

01:20:52.600 --> 01:20:55.000
I chose to be part of his transition team. So

01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.319
I left New York and went to Dallas, Texas, because

01:20:58.319 --> 01:21:00.159
that's where he was going to live as a former

01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:04.829
president. And I chose to do that. And maybe

01:21:04.829 --> 01:21:07.189
possibly because a part of me, there was a connection

01:21:07.189 --> 01:21:10.890
there. And so I did that for a good number of

01:21:10.890 --> 01:21:13.029
years, about five years. I was with President

01:21:13.029 --> 01:21:15.510
Bush on his protective detail every day for five

01:21:15.510 --> 01:21:17.489
years. And that was a great assignment, really

01:21:17.489 --> 01:21:20.869
good assignment. And then I went back into the

01:21:20.869 --> 01:21:25.489
field for my last 10 years in the Dallas field

01:21:25.489 --> 01:21:28.390
office. But I was doing protection work all the

01:21:28.390 --> 01:21:31.510
time. I mean, the operational tempo never slowed

01:21:31.510 --> 01:21:35.680
down after 9 -11. And yeah, all over the world,

01:21:35.739 --> 01:21:39.880
all over the country, a really rewarding career,

01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:43.939
but a lot of sacrifices along the way, you know,

01:21:43.939 --> 01:21:45.779
a lot of sacrifices for the family, especially.

01:21:47.039 --> 01:21:49.380
I don't know if this is a question you're even

01:21:49.380 --> 01:21:53.039
able to ask, but I would imagine it must be pretty

01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:56.640
tough to be. president during that event, obviously

01:21:56.640 --> 01:21:58.600
be president for some of the years following,

01:21:58.779 --> 01:22:01.859
and then have to relinquish the reins when the

01:22:01.859 --> 01:22:04.960
air quotes job isn't finished yet. Did you ever

01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:08.399
kind of witness the impact or the kind of ripple

01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:10.539
effect of that when he left the White House?

01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:14.960
Not necessarily. I mean, because if you had told

01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:17.930
us, right, that... that oh within eight within

01:22:17.930 --> 01:22:20.350
seven years from now surely this there'll be

01:22:20.350 --> 01:22:22.689
a bow in this thing right and it'll be done we

01:22:22.689 --> 01:22:25.229
all would have said yes of course but that wasn't

01:22:25.229 --> 01:22:27.850
the case right um i wasn't working the night

01:22:27.850 --> 01:22:30.130
that he was notified like when they got bin laden

01:22:30.130 --> 01:22:34.029
and so forth um but um i was with him the next

01:22:34.029 --> 01:22:37.369
morning uh after that um and we were actually

01:22:37.369 --> 01:22:39.289
ironically we were going to dc we were already

01:22:39.289 --> 01:22:42.630
uh scheduled to go on a trip to dc and um yeah

01:22:42.630 --> 01:22:44.109
there were some things said some things shared

01:22:44.109 --> 01:22:47.949
that i'll keep i'll keep private um but um i

01:22:47.949 --> 01:22:51.270
know it was uh yeah it was a marker for him that

01:22:51.270 --> 01:22:55.310
um that was very very powerful and then all the

01:22:55.310 --> 01:22:59.829
people in the in that orbit um but you know as

01:22:59.829 --> 01:23:02.010
we know history history history doesn't stop

01:23:02.010 --> 01:23:05.289
right history and uh that conflict kept going

01:23:05.289 --> 01:23:09.149
on and on and and um yeah to for for better or

01:23:09.149 --> 01:23:13.590
for worse absolutely what about the ripple effect

01:23:13.590 --> 01:23:18.229
physically and mentally of that extremely traumatic

01:23:18.229 --> 01:23:20.590
event as you progress through your career or

01:23:20.590 --> 01:23:24.930
even during your transition out? Yeah, I recently

01:23:24.930 --> 01:23:28.069
spoke with another 9 -11 survivor, secret service

01:23:28.069 --> 01:23:30.949
agent, and her and I were kind of comparing stories.

01:23:31.270 --> 01:23:35.829
And unfortunately, just think about the pre -9

01:23:35.829 --> 01:23:40.359
-11 world and the post -9 -11 world. It's completely

01:23:40.359 --> 01:23:42.460
different. I mean, the world is like a snow globe,

01:23:42.500 --> 01:23:45.180
right? It's got shook up. And in my line of work,

01:23:45.359 --> 01:23:49.640
protection, you know, our operational tempo just

01:23:49.640 --> 01:23:51.659
went through the roof. That treadmill went from,

01:23:51.680 --> 01:23:55.640
you know, seven miles an hour to 10 or 11. And

01:23:55.640 --> 01:23:58.960
what we were doing the previous week with five

01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:00.960
agents, now we were doing with 10 agents. And

01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:03.739
that was the initial response. And all of a sudden,

01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:05.939
you're getting into different, you know, we're

01:24:05.939 --> 01:24:09.399
expanding what we do and how we do it. And that

01:24:09.399 --> 01:24:11.880
requires more manpower. And I just feel like,

01:24:11.899 --> 01:24:17.579
honestly, 2001 to 2005, just a blur in my mind

01:24:17.579 --> 01:24:21.979
looking back. And maybe that's why I didn't think

01:24:21.979 --> 01:24:24.159
about 9 -11 much, or that's why I didn't process

01:24:24.159 --> 01:24:28.680
it much. It's really crazy thinking back, looking

01:24:28.680 --> 01:24:31.939
back, how little the agents that I worked with

01:24:31.939 --> 01:24:33.859
in the New York field office, how little we talked

01:24:33.859 --> 01:24:36.359
about it with each other. I think that would

01:24:36.359 --> 01:24:39.109
have been healthy. there's a lot of people I

01:24:39.109 --> 01:24:41.050
would find out years later really struggled.

01:24:42.210 --> 01:24:45.090
I was spared a lot of that, but a lot of people

01:24:45.090 --> 01:24:47.930
that I worked with and I cared about and agents

01:24:47.930 --> 01:24:50.510
that answered the call and did a good job were

01:24:50.510 --> 01:24:54.750
really, really damaged. And we didn't talk about

01:24:54.750 --> 01:24:56.930
it. And so if I hadn't, back to that time machine,

01:24:57.050 --> 01:24:58.630
if I had that time machine, I would do some things

01:24:58.630 --> 01:25:00.989
differently. I would be intentional and I would

01:25:00.989 --> 01:25:04.409
bring up hard conversations and private moments.

01:25:05.420 --> 01:25:09.100
and try to be a part of healing. But me, myself,

01:25:09.460 --> 01:25:14.220
I didn't talk about it for 10 years. It wasn't

01:25:14.220 --> 01:25:18.000
until the 10th anniversary that I felt compelled

01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.279
and encouraged by people around me that I trusted

01:25:20.279 --> 01:25:24.000
and loved and started to share my story. I started

01:25:24.000 --> 01:25:26.520
to share my story because I wanted to bring some

01:25:26.520 --> 01:25:29.420
good. From a faith perspective, I wanted to bring

01:25:29.420 --> 01:25:31.439
some good out of this awful event in my life.

01:25:33.659 --> 01:25:36.659
bigger judgments on the entire issue. I just

01:25:36.659 --> 01:25:39.800
wanted to show people what's happened in my life

01:25:39.800 --> 01:25:41.939
as a result and what God did with me as a result

01:25:41.939 --> 01:25:45.460
of it. And I wanted to bring good to people.

01:25:45.579 --> 01:25:49.060
Here's the ironic part. And which happened, which

01:25:49.060 --> 01:25:51.720
was great. But what happened first and foremost

01:25:51.720 --> 01:25:56.220
was the more I talked about it, a tremendous

01:25:56.220 --> 01:26:00.180
healing started to happen. you know those those

01:26:00.180 --> 01:26:02.239
kinds of things in darkness just they don't they

01:26:02.239 --> 01:26:03.720
don't go away and they don't get better they

01:26:03.720 --> 01:26:08.779
only get worse and i had no idea the weight that

01:26:08.779 --> 01:26:10.619
it was that it was that i was carrying and i

01:26:10.619 --> 01:26:13.979
had no idea or appreciation for how it changed

01:26:13.979 --> 01:26:19.100
me and when i started to share the experience

01:26:19.100 --> 01:26:22.439
and talk about it i started down a real genuine

01:26:22.439 --> 01:26:26.739
path of significant healing and um i can't i

01:26:26.739 --> 01:26:30.810
mean i thank god that that I did that because

01:26:30.810 --> 01:26:34.069
had I kept going, maybe, I don't know, I think

01:26:34.069 --> 01:26:38.090
I'd be in a much darker place right now. And

01:26:38.090 --> 01:26:41.050
so that's why I try to, today, it's what I encourage

01:26:41.050 --> 01:26:43.930
when I'm speaking in front of corporations and

01:26:43.930 --> 01:26:46.569
companies and so forth about all these things

01:26:46.569 --> 01:26:49.170
and other faith -based groups that I speak to.

01:26:49.949 --> 01:26:53.890
um man i'm just i'm just elevating i'm illuminating

01:26:53.890 --> 01:26:55.869
this awful thing but i'm showing hey there's

01:26:55.869 --> 01:26:57.369
some good that can come from this and here's

01:26:57.369 --> 01:26:59.189
what i learned here's what i learned the hard

01:26:59.189 --> 01:27:00.770
way and you don't need to make the same mistakes

01:27:00.770 --> 01:27:04.850
you know what i mean absolutely what about physically

01:27:04.850 --> 01:27:07.310
i mean you hear a lot of uh people you know with

01:27:07.310 --> 01:27:09.130
all kinds of horrendous things that were at ground

01:27:09.130 --> 01:27:11.529
zero did you have any kind of long -term effects

01:27:11.529 --> 01:27:15.189
from the physical side I did it. None to date.

01:27:15.289 --> 01:27:18.229
You know, I worked the pile, they called it.

01:27:18.869 --> 01:27:22.270
I worked that for a week trying to salvage and

01:27:22.270 --> 01:27:25.909
find equipment and, you know, survivors and so

01:27:25.909 --> 01:27:28.489
forth. I did that for a week. And then I worked

01:27:28.489 --> 01:27:30.869
out at the landfill out on Staten Island where

01:27:30.869 --> 01:27:33.409
they were dumping all the stuff. I worked there

01:27:33.409 --> 01:27:35.989
for a week. So I was surrounded. There were some

01:27:35.989 --> 01:27:38.050
agents that worked weeks and weeks out there

01:27:38.050 --> 01:27:43.500
on both of those sites. I have not had any issues.

01:27:44.340 --> 01:27:47.359
I think that's pretty remarkable. Every year,

01:27:47.380 --> 01:27:49.140
the Secret Service, we have to have a physical

01:27:49.140 --> 01:27:52.500
every year anyways. And every year when I did

01:27:52.500 --> 01:27:54.619
my physical, they would see my medical history

01:27:54.619 --> 01:27:57.060
and they would do additional chest x -rays and

01:27:57.060 --> 01:27:59.260
look at a lot of things because I inhaled a lot

01:27:59.260 --> 01:28:02.279
of stuff. And so I was given a little extra scrutiny

01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:05.399
and so were all of the survivors. But nothing

01:28:05.399 --> 01:28:08.039
ever popped for me. Very grateful. Excellent.

01:28:09.100 --> 01:28:10.859
Well, I want to hit one more question, then we'll

01:28:10.859 --> 01:28:13.699
go to transition book and some closing questions.

01:28:15.930 --> 01:28:19.890
When you look at the, and I feel like it's related

01:28:19.890 --> 01:28:22.229
to exactly what we talked about, these extremist

01:28:22.229 --> 01:28:24.649
voices in this division of the country, but we

01:28:24.649 --> 01:28:27.850
had seemingly quite a long time where there really

01:28:27.850 --> 01:28:30.649
weren't any assassination attempts on presidents,

01:28:30.789 --> 01:28:33.649
on political figures. And then recently, clearly

01:28:33.649 --> 01:28:36.130
there's been an uptick, whether it was an actual

01:28:36.130 --> 01:28:40.130
assassination, an assassination attempt. What,

01:28:40.189 --> 01:28:42.170
through your eyes, rather than saying who did

01:28:42.170 --> 01:28:44.930
it and was there a conspiracy theory, let's just

01:28:44.930 --> 01:28:46.989
go why this is happening in the first place.

01:28:47.109 --> 01:28:50.430
So what, through your eyes, do you think is contributing

01:28:50.430 --> 01:28:54.510
to seemingly more violence than we did see towards

01:28:54.510 --> 01:28:56.529
political figures the last couple of decades

01:28:56.529 --> 01:29:03.409
or so? I think our culture, our society as a

01:29:03.409 --> 01:29:10.420
whole is feeding on fear. And I don't claim to

01:29:10.420 --> 01:29:15.300
have the source of that, the headwaters of that

01:29:15.300 --> 01:29:20.100
fear. But I think we're just feeding on fear.

01:29:20.500 --> 01:29:22.779
And there's a lot of politics. There's a whole

01:29:22.779 --> 01:29:27.979
political game on both sides now, you know, frenzying

01:29:27.979 --> 01:29:33.020
up fear. And whether people think they're going

01:29:33.020 --> 01:29:39.600
to lose something forever or... Or this is the

01:29:39.600 --> 01:29:42.520
end of the world as we know it, or this is the

01:29:42.520 --> 01:29:45.659
end of the Republic as we know it, or, I mean,

01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:49.939
just, we're in such extremes. Hard times are

01:29:49.939 --> 01:29:52.520
hard times. Hard times have been around since

01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:58.779
the very beginning, right? We're just hyper -focused,

01:29:58.800 --> 01:30:01.279
and we think that things have never been this

01:30:01.279 --> 01:30:04.319
bad. I mean, back to the Bible that I read, and

01:30:04.319 --> 01:30:06.680
I believe you read that, man, there's some hard,

01:30:06.779 --> 01:30:10.819
dark times, okay? So people, they're feeding

01:30:10.819 --> 01:30:14.539
on fear, and they don't really have hope. Don't

01:30:14.539 --> 01:30:17.699
have a hope in something greater, something grounding,

01:30:17.819 --> 01:30:21.939
something that can overcome their fear. And I

01:30:21.939 --> 01:30:27.950
think it's on both sides of the spectrum. And

01:30:27.950 --> 01:30:30.789
it's really easy for you and I to sit here and

01:30:30.789 --> 01:30:34.210
like two 80 -year -old men and say, this world's

01:30:34.210 --> 01:30:38.090
gone to hell. There's no chance. But I refuse

01:30:38.090 --> 01:30:40.050
to give up. I'm an optimist. I'm going to keep

01:30:40.050 --> 01:30:42.829
engaging. I'm going to keep entering in. And

01:30:42.829 --> 01:30:44.510
I'm going to keep doing that, especially for

01:30:44.510 --> 01:30:45.989
the sake of my sons, because they're going to

01:30:45.989 --> 01:30:47.909
live in this world much longer than I am, more

01:30:47.909 --> 01:30:50.289
than likely. And they're going to have to navigate

01:30:50.289 --> 01:30:54.489
it. But I think there's just so much fear and

01:30:54.489 --> 01:30:57.369
so little hope. And whatever I can do to fan

01:30:57.369 --> 01:31:02.409
the flames of hope and a call to something greater,

01:31:02.569 --> 01:31:06.649
I'm going to do it as best I can. Because I think

01:31:06.649 --> 01:31:09.329
there is, in my personal belief, there's something

01:31:09.329 --> 01:31:12.010
greater. The love of God is greater than the

01:31:12.010 --> 01:31:14.510
fear that we're all feeding on. And I want to

01:31:14.510 --> 01:31:19.130
do what I can to illuminate that and try to.

01:31:19.500 --> 01:31:23.340
Try to focus on hope and not fear. I mean, I

01:31:23.340 --> 01:31:24.979
couldn't agree more. And this goes back to our

01:31:24.979 --> 01:31:27.119
conversation at the beginning. If you woke up

01:31:27.119 --> 01:31:30.300
and you can see, that's amazing. If you live

01:31:30.300 --> 01:31:33.100
in a place and you walk outside and your house

01:31:33.100 --> 01:31:35.680
is still there and there's trees and there's

01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:38.699
all these beautiful creatures of nature, that's

01:31:38.699 --> 01:31:43.340
amazing. What Fox or CNN tells you is not actually

01:31:43.340 --> 01:31:45.859
happening to you. Walk outside your front door.

01:31:46.039 --> 01:31:47.579
And if you do live in one of these neighborhoods,

01:31:47.640 --> 01:31:49.800
and it's up to the rest of us to help, you know,

01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:53.439
bring those people up too. But I just feel like

01:31:53.439 --> 01:31:58.180
the enemy of, you know, the lack of hope is gratitude.

01:31:58.739 --> 01:32:01.460
You know, we have it so, so good, but we're told

01:32:01.460 --> 01:32:02.899
that we don't. And we're told that all these

01:32:02.899 --> 01:32:04.500
groups of people are going to turn us to a different

01:32:04.500 --> 01:32:06.699
religion or they're all going to come from another

01:32:06.699 --> 01:32:10.359
country and invade us. And I don't see it. I

01:32:10.359 --> 01:32:13.180
do not see it with my own eyes. I see beautiful

01:32:13.180 --> 01:32:15.560
people of all cultures, you know, all backgrounds

01:32:15.560 --> 01:32:18.640
in my community. that our kids go to school together

01:32:18.640 --> 01:32:21.279
and they do jujitsu together and ride horses

01:32:21.279 --> 01:32:24.060
together. And I mean, this is just, this is what

01:32:24.060 --> 01:32:25.880
I'm seeing. And I wish that we could just turn

01:32:25.880 --> 01:32:28.600
off the, you know, the talking heads and get

01:32:28.600 --> 01:32:30.680
everyone will just walk outside, go into your

01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:33.119
community, you know, and if there are some issues,

01:32:33.199 --> 01:32:35.899
then what can we do to change it? And they want

01:32:35.899 --> 01:32:37.859
to change the world, start a home. And then once

01:32:37.859 --> 01:32:40.140
you've got that sorted out, step outside your

01:32:40.140 --> 01:32:42.079
front door and be a mentor in your community.

01:32:42.560 --> 01:32:45.960
So I think there is, there is hope. yeah there

01:32:45.960 --> 01:32:48.680
is hope and i would say put down the screen and

01:32:48.680 --> 01:32:51.279
walk outside and get into your community and

01:32:51.279 --> 01:32:53.220
talk to your neighbors and because the algorithm

01:32:53.220 --> 01:32:57.960
is just uh i spent 25 years completely 100 off

01:32:57.960 --> 01:33:00.720
of social media because i had to for in my opinion

01:33:00.720 --> 01:33:02.819
for operational reasons i just didn't want to

01:33:02.819 --> 01:33:05.180
put myself out there and now i'm doing this new

01:33:05.180 --> 01:33:08.140
career and i'm promoting a book and i'm i'm doing

01:33:08.140 --> 01:33:10.359
speaking engagements and so i kind of have to

01:33:10.359 --> 01:33:13.439
be so in the last four or five months I've been

01:33:13.439 --> 01:33:16.720
engaged in social media and I'm just, I'm just,

01:33:16.779 --> 01:33:19.659
I'm blown away by the algorithms and, and what,

01:33:19.779 --> 01:33:22.199
what you show a little bit of interest in something.

01:33:22.279 --> 01:33:24.300
And this just starts feeding you, baby, feeding

01:33:24.300 --> 01:33:25.939
you, feeding you more of what you want to see.

01:33:26.020 --> 01:33:28.159
And, and you become just, that becomes your world.

01:33:28.199 --> 01:33:30.060
And you become to see that, oh, this is the entire

01:33:30.060 --> 01:33:35.619
world. And I'm, I'm staying off. all things political

01:33:35.619 --> 01:33:37.899
on my social media, because I don't need that

01:33:37.899 --> 01:33:40.060
feed. I don't need the algorithm kicking in on

01:33:40.060 --> 01:33:41.739
that. So the stuff that is feeding me is not

01:33:41.739 --> 01:33:44.539
necessarily bad things, but I can see where,

01:33:44.659 --> 01:33:47.899
man, that world, your world, when you're focused

01:33:47.899 --> 01:33:50.279
on the screens and what the algorithms get algorithms

01:33:50.279 --> 01:33:52.720
giving you, your world gets really small, really

01:33:52.720 --> 01:33:55.619
fast. And to your point, there's a much bigger

01:33:55.619 --> 01:33:58.300
road out there with, with mostly good people,

01:33:58.380 --> 01:34:01.479
citizens who, who want many of the same things.

01:34:02.859 --> 01:34:05.340
Absolutely. Well, let's get to your transition

01:34:05.340 --> 01:34:08.060
then. After this long career, what made you pull

01:34:08.060 --> 01:34:10.659
the trigger as far as transitioning out? And

01:34:10.659 --> 01:34:14.560
then what made you then write a book? Yeah, I

01:34:14.560 --> 01:34:19.050
just... my time was my time wasn't up i could

01:34:19.050 --> 01:34:20.850
have i could have stayed about six more years

01:34:20.850 --> 01:34:23.649
before mandatory retirement but i just i just

01:34:23.649 --> 01:34:25.369
knew that i was being i wasn't running from the

01:34:25.369 --> 01:34:27.829
secret service because it was 25 year career

01:34:27.829 --> 01:34:30.229
that i was i was pleased with it was mostly a

01:34:30.229 --> 01:34:32.369
good career and mostly good experiences but i

01:34:32.369 --> 01:34:33.869
wasn't running from that i was running towards

01:34:33.869 --> 01:34:36.449
something i was being called and being led to

01:34:36.449 --> 01:34:39.390
to do something uh different and i was writing

01:34:39.390 --> 01:34:43.770
this book for 10 years in my head, right? And

01:34:43.770 --> 01:34:45.949
it was a family joke. I'd be like, oh, son, that's

01:34:45.949 --> 01:34:47.310
a good one. I'm going to put that in the book.

01:34:47.369 --> 01:34:49.649
And everyone would laugh. And they didn't know

01:34:49.649 --> 01:34:54.050
I was serious. And so, yeah, I started, my wife

01:34:54.050 --> 01:34:55.649
laughed. She says, it takes you an hour to write

01:34:55.649 --> 01:34:57.069
an email. How are you going to write a book?

01:34:57.710 --> 01:35:00.869
But I started doing it. I piddled with it for

01:35:00.869 --> 01:35:02.789
about a year. This is while I was an agent in

01:35:02.789 --> 01:35:06.119
my free time. And I felt called, I felt led to

01:35:06.119 --> 01:35:09.720
do one more campaign, the 2024 campaign. I said,

01:35:09.760 --> 01:35:11.039
I'm going to stick around. I'm going to do, I'm

01:35:11.039 --> 01:35:13.140
going to serve for one more campaign. And as

01:35:13.140 --> 01:35:14.960
you know, it was a completely normal campaign,

01:35:15.220 --> 01:35:18.920
nothing, no issues. And didn't know what I was

01:35:18.920 --> 01:35:21.779
signing up for. But so I did that. And what happened

01:35:21.779 --> 01:35:24.500
was I was on the road so much. Every flight I

01:35:24.500 --> 01:35:26.560
was on, every night I was in a hotel room by

01:35:26.560 --> 01:35:29.819
myself. I just opened up that laptop and started

01:35:29.819 --> 01:35:32.199
writing, started going, started really getting

01:35:32.199 --> 01:35:34.800
after it. And I wrote. probably a third of that

01:35:34.800 --> 01:35:37.899
book at 30 ,000 feet. And the other two thirds,

01:35:37.920 --> 01:35:40.720
probably in a lonely hotel room on some campaign

01:35:40.720 --> 01:35:43.380
trail. But I said, I'm going to make, if I'm

01:35:43.380 --> 01:35:44.760
going to stick around, I'm going to do the job

01:35:44.760 --> 01:35:46.180
and do the job well, but I'm going to make the

01:35:46.180 --> 01:35:49.039
free time, the downtime count while I was away

01:35:49.039 --> 01:35:51.460
from my family. And that's what I did. And so,

01:35:51.579 --> 01:35:56.729
yeah, I retired in July of 2025. And I've had

01:35:56.729 --> 01:36:00.430
no regrets. I'm running headlong into something

01:36:00.430 --> 01:36:04.609
else and doing my speaking engagements, my corporate

01:36:04.609 --> 01:36:08.250
speaking, my faith -based speaking while getting

01:36:08.250 --> 01:36:11.010
the message of the book out there. And I just,

01:36:11.170 --> 01:36:13.529
there's so many lost people. And the point of

01:36:13.529 --> 01:36:15.550
the book was this, and you've read it so you

01:36:15.550 --> 01:36:18.369
understand. There's so many, especially young

01:36:18.369 --> 01:36:21.770
men. It's written in a tone and language to men,

01:36:21.970 --> 01:36:25.600
although women seem to love it as well. But it's

01:36:25.600 --> 01:36:28.260
written in that language to men that are searching

01:36:28.260 --> 01:36:31.279
for purpose. They're searching for real mission,

01:36:31.460 --> 01:36:35.420
for real meaning in life. and i there's just

01:36:35.420 --> 01:36:37.439
a massive void there when there's a void you

01:36:37.439 --> 01:36:40.180
can fill it with with toxic stuff with with with

01:36:40.180 --> 01:36:43.399
negative stuff uh i i just want to use this book

01:36:43.399 --> 01:36:45.119
and use this greater message to point people

01:36:45.119 --> 01:36:48.619
to uh to to fulfill their mission and their meaning

01:36:48.619 --> 01:36:51.199
that's given to them by their creator uh so that

01:36:51.199 --> 01:36:53.319
they can start bringing um you know bringing

01:36:53.319 --> 01:36:55.060
good into the world and bringing light into darkness

01:36:55.060 --> 01:36:58.199
absolutely that's what i really enjoyed about

01:36:58.199 --> 01:37:01.020
it you've obviously got the story side, but then

01:37:01.020 --> 01:37:04.680
you're diving into your faith and all kinds of

01:37:04.680 --> 01:37:08.180
wisdom from all over the place. And it is. There

01:37:08.180 --> 01:37:10.720
are lessons, as we talked about, in history,

01:37:10.840 --> 01:37:12.500
but the question is, well, what can we learn

01:37:12.500 --> 01:37:14.720
from them? What can we do? And I think purpose

01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:17.539
is a huge thing. If you think that you're powerless

01:37:17.539 --> 01:37:19.840
because, again, the algorithm has told you that

01:37:19.840 --> 01:37:23.220
this is going to happen and this group of people

01:37:23.220 --> 01:37:26.539
are at fault, then, like you said, you're then

01:37:26.539 --> 01:37:30.189
a civilian. But you want to be a citizen and

01:37:30.189 --> 01:37:32.409
you don't have to put on a uniform or like I

01:37:32.409 --> 01:37:35.229
did or a suit like you did. Everyone can serve

01:37:35.229 --> 01:37:38.270
in a different way. I mean, raising a kind, compassionate

01:37:38.270 --> 01:37:41.649
child, for example, is the most powerful gift

01:37:41.649 --> 01:37:44.569
we can give to the world. So I think it's a great

01:37:44.569 --> 01:37:46.750
way of taking these experiences of horror that

01:37:46.750 --> 01:37:49.689
you live, certainly on those few days. But then,

01:37:49.689 --> 01:37:51.729
you know, giving the reader takeaways. Yeah,

01:37:51.770 --> 01:37:53.430
but what can we do? What can we learn from it?

01:37:53.470 --> 01:37:57.720
How can we grow? Right. All right. 100%. That's

01:37:57.720 --> 01:38:00.840
now my life mission. I'm a very mission focused.

01:38:01.060 --> 01:38:03.399
Many people in the first responder veteran community

01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:07.100
are, right? And that's my new mission. I was

01:38:07.100 --> 01:38:10.380
focused on the Secret Service mission for many

01:38:10.380 --> 01:38:13.119
years. I've always been focused on my mission

01:38:13.119 --> 01:38:15.979
as a believer, as a husband, as a father. But

01:38:15.979 --> 01:38:17.600
now I have this new mission in front of me and

01:38:17.600 --> 01:38:19.800
I'm just going to, I'm not always doing it well

01:38:19.800 --> 01:38:21.520
and I'm not batting a thousand, but I'm going

01:38:21.520 --> 01:38:25.449
to get after it. Fantastic. Well, the book is

01:38:25.449 --> 01:38:28.329
called Bury Me in a Dirty Suit. For people listening,

01:38:28.489 --> 01:38:30.449
where are the best places to find the book or

01:38:30.449 --> 01:38:35.170
find more about you online? Yeah, you can find

01:38:35.170 --> 01:38:37.430
the book anywhere you buy books online. Amazon

01:38:37.430 --> 01:38:40.970
.com, obviously, is usually everyone's stop.

01:38:41.189 --> 01:38:45.010
You can find it there. My website, I have two

01:38:45.010 --> 01:38:47.630
different websites, DarrenKinder .com. That's

01:38:47.630 --> 01:38:51.069
D -A -R -I -N. Kinder .com because I spelled

01:38:51.069 --> 01:38:54.689
my name correctly. And there's not many people

01:38:54.689 --> 01:38:57.789
named Darren spell it that way. And then on the

01:38:57.789 --> 01:39:00.550
faith -based side, my faith -based website is

01:39:00.550 --> 01:39:05.149
fierce -faith .com. So there's a hyphen in there,

01:39:05.229 --> 01:39:08.649
fierce -faith .com. I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn.

01:39:08.689 --> 01:39:11.449
And like I just said, getting my feet wet in

01:39:11.449 --> 01:39:14.779
those waters. Brilliant. Well, just want to throw

01:39:14.779 --> 01:39:16.800
a few closing questions at you. The first one,

01:39:16.819 --> 01:39:18.859
we talked about your book. Are there any other

01:39:18.859 --> 01:39:20.779
books written by other people that you'd love

01:39:20.779 --> 01:39:23.000
to recommend? It can be related to our discussion

01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:26.739
today or completely unrelated. I mean, I'm a

01:39:26.739 --> 01:39:32.300
history nerd, so Undaunted Courage, the William

01:39:32.300 --> 01:39:35.939
and Clark Expedition by Stephen Ambrose. I mean,

01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:39.100
wow, just so powerful. I'm reading Blood and

01:39:39.100 --> 01:39:42.840
Thunder right now. by Hampton Sides. That's Kit

01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:44.859
Carson and the Conquest of the American West

01:39:44.859 --> 01:39:52.439
and how complex that was. And then, gosh, the

01:39:52.439 --> 01:39:57.739
one that is really escaping me right now, Endurance.

01:39:58.039 --> 01:40:01.720
Have you ever read Endurance? About the failed

01:40:01.720 --> 01:40:08.619
expedition? Yeah. Ernest Shackleton's expedition

01:40:08.619 --> 01:40:13.020
into the South Pole. Man, it's called endurance.

01:40:13.399 --> 01:40:16.039
It is. You want to learn lessons on leadership.

01:40:16.220 --> 01:40:18.439
You want to learn lessons on resilience, on grit,

01:40:18.579 --> 01:40:23.899
on teamwork, and just be gobsmacked by what these

01:40:23.899 --> 01:40:27.500
men were able to do and endure. Man, I highly

01:40:27.500 --> 01:40:32.819
recommend it. I think that's one of the most

01:40:32.819 --> 01:40:34.960
recommended books on the show, actually. So I

01:40:34.960 --> 01:40:36.699
can't remember if I already bought it and it's

01:40:36.699 --> 01:40:38.640
sitting here. I don't think I have, but it's

01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:40.340
definitely on my list to read. So I will read

01:40:40.340 --> 01:40:45.220
it. All right. What about, thank you. What about

01:40:45.220 --> 01:40:48.359
film television documentaries? Any of those that

01:40:48.359 --> 01:40:56.939
you love? Oh goodness. I have a list of old school

01:40:56.939 --> 01:41:00.300
movies that I go through on my phone. I go through

01:41:00.300 --> 01:41:03.039
with my boys when it's finally age appropriate.

01:41:03.199 --> 01:41:06.319
Right. So, I mean, we're watching Black Hawk

01:41:06.319 --> 01:41:08.439
Down and we're watching Save Your Private Ryan.

01:41:08.840 --> 01:41:11.899
And we're going to watch Band of Brothers this

01:41:11.899 --> 01:41:15.239
coming during the holiday break. And my son's

01:41:15.239 --> 01:41:17.619
home from college because I'm just trying to

01:41:17.619 --> 01:41:20.619
illuminate courage and leadership to them. What

01:41:20.619 --> 01:41:22.739
does that look like? I've read with each one

01:41:22.739 --> 01:41:25.810
of my sons. When they were 14 or 15 years old,

01:41:25.909 --> 01:41:30.069
we read Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden. I'm a

01:41:30.069 --> 01:41:31.649
man of faith. It's not a Christian book at all.

01:41:31.729 --> 01:41:35.189
And at the end of every chapter, we do a chapter

01:41:35.189 --> 01:41:37.170
a week. At the end of every chapter, I'd ask

01:41:37.170 --> 01:41:40.029
the same questions. Okay, where did you see courage

01:41:40.029 --> 01:41:43.170
here in this chapter? Where did you see leadership

01:41:43.170 --> 01:41:46.430
in this chapter? Where did you see mistakes and

01:41:46.430 --> 01:41:47.789
what could have been done differently, right?

01:41:48.189 --> 01:41:52.430
And just, man, it's really, really powerful stuff.

01:41:53.420 --> 01:41:56.199
uh that's the kind of the the genre that we uh

01:41:56.199 --> 01:41:59.859
that that we run in and uh sometimes sometimes

01:41:59.859 --> 01:42:02.539
the kids like it sometimes they don't but i think

01:42:02.539 --> 01:42:06.520
it's all it's all worth it absolutely i had several

01:42:06.520 --> 01:42:09.140
men that were there on the show from mike duran

01:42:09.140 --> 01:42:11.819
the pilot to um several of the guys that were

01:42:11.819 --> 01:42:15.180
you know delta and on the uh oh my goodness what

01:42:15.180 --> 01:42:17.220
were they range they were rangers i believe um

01:42:17.220 --> 01:42:20.220
yeah rangers and delta and a few seals were sprinkled

01:42:20.220 --> 01:42:23.750
in yeah yeah Amazing conversations. All right.

01:42:23.750 --> 01:42:25.350
Well, the next question, speaking of amazing

01:42:25.350 --> 01:42:27.689
people, is there a person that you recommend

01:42:27.689 --> 01:42:30.829
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to

01:42:30.829 --> 01:42:32.949
the first responders, military, and associated

01:42:32.949 --> 01:42:38.489
professions of the world? First person I thought

01:42:38.489 --> 01:42:42.449
of was my friend Clint Bruce. I don't know if

01:42:42.449 --> 01:42:44.989
you've heard of Clint, but he's a former Navy

01:42:44.989 --> 01:42:49.250
SEAL, captain of the Navy football team at the

01:42:49.250 --> 01:42:52.970
Naval Academy. He did a short stint in the NFL

01:42:52.970 --> 01:42:55.810
as well. As he likes to say, you've never heard

01:42:55.810 --> 01:42:58.649
of him because the guy in front of him was a

01:42:58.649 --> 01:43:00.630
guy named Ray Lewis, Hall of Fame linebacker

01:43:00.630 --> 01:43:03.109
for the Ravens named Ray Lewis. So he never saw

01:43:03.109 --> 01:43:06.609
the field. But he's a great man. He's a powerful

01:43:06.609 --> 01:43:09.930
man. He's a powerful speaker. Lessons on what

01:43:09.930 --> 01:43:13.149
really matters, family, lessons on resilience

01:43:13.149 --> 01:43:16.380
and grit. And he's an innovator. He's an entrepreneur

01:43:16.380 --> 01:43:19.319
now. He's just one of those guys that, and he's

01:43:19.319 --> 01:43:22.199
a humble guy that doesn't mind what he calls

01:43:22.199 --> 01:43:26.220
teaching from his scars. He loves to teach from

01:43:26.220 --> 01:43:29.399
his failures. And I've learned a lot from him.

01:43:29.479 --> 01:43:32.899
He'd be great. Fantastic. All right. Well, the

01:43:32.899 --> 01:43:35.520
last question, what do you do to decompress?

01:43:37.260 --> 01:43:40.640
I just did it a couple of weeks ago. I go to

01:43:40.640 --> 01:43:44.649
Colorado. I go to the mountains. And I completely

01:43:44.649 --> 01:43:49.829
unplug. And we have a place in Colorado that

01:43:49.829 --> 01:43:52.550
we like to get away to. And there is no Wi -Fi.

01:43:52.550 --> 01:43:54.789
There's no internet. There is no cell signal.

01:43:56.130 --> 01:44:00.810
It is awesome. On a daily basis, I'm hitting

01:44:00.810 --> 01:44:04.329
the gym, I'm swimming, I'm running. I have to

01:44:04.329 --> 01:44:07.649
do that and meditate and pray and things of that

01:44:07.649 --> 01:44:10.670
nature and kind of read the scriptures. Those

01:44:10.670 --> 01:44:12.850
are my daily things. But every now and then,

01:44:12.890 --> 01:44:15.470
I just got to get away. And I get itchy. I get

01:44:15.470 --> 01:44:18.850
itchy when I haven't gone in a while. And yeah,

01:44:19.430 --> 01:44:21.069
I got to get, for me, it's the mountains. My

01:44:21.069 --> 01:44:22.750
wife, it's the beach. But for me, it's the mountains.

01:44:23.970 --> 01:44:26.520
Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so much.

01:44:26.539 --> 01:44:28.659
It's been such an amazing conversation, kind

01:44:28.659 --> 01:44:32.279
of that contrast between the operational side

01:44:32.279 --> 01:44:34.659
and being boots on the ground, 9 -11 and some

01:44:34.659 --> 01:44:36.739
of the areas that we've talked about, but coupled

01:44:36.739 --> 01:44:39.880
with so many human takeaways. I mean, it really

01:44:39.880 --> 01:44:42.819
has been a phenomenal conversation. So I want

01:44:42.819 --> 01:44:44.880
to thank you so much for being so generous with

01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:46.859
your time today and coming on the Behind the

01:44:46.859 --> 01:44:50.680
Shield podcast. Well, I loved it. I love what

01:44:50.680 --> 01:44:53.449
you're doing. It's not easy, the line that you're

01:44:53.449 --> 01:44:56.609
walking. You know, you're trying to bring people

01:44:56.609 --> 01:44:58.810
together as opposed to being a grenade thrower

01:44:58.810 --> 01:45:02.270
on one side or the other, right? I would encourage

01:45:02.270 --> 01:45:05.850
you to keep going, to press on, to press into

01:45:05.850 --> 01:45:08.829
it. The content that you're, this podcast and

01:45:08.829 --> 01:45:10.770
the other social posts and stuff that you're

01:45:10.770 --> 01:45:13.989
doing, it matters. And I'm a big fan and I just

01:45:13.989 --> 01:45:14.989
want to encourage you to keep going.