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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Geering, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show former
Secret Service agent and the author of Bury Me
in a Dirty Suit, Darren Kinder. Now, in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics from
his journey into the world of teaching, transitioning
into the Secret Service, being at Ground Zero
during 9 -11, the community he witnessed on 9
-12, the difference between a citizen and a civilian,
the great boat lift of 9 -11, Dietrich Bonhoeffer,
catharsis through writing, his faith, and so
much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
it easier for others to find. And this is a free
library of almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all
I ask in return is that you help share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to every single person on planet Earth who
needs to hear them. So with that being said,
I introduce to you Darren Kinder. Enjoy. Well,
Darren, I want to start by saying two things.
Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Chris
McIntyre, for making this introduction. And secondly,
I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Well, James, it's good to be here.
Chris is a good man, and you came highly recommended.
I've been looking at your work ever since and
very impressed. I'm happy to be here. Thank you
very much. We'll get into it. But I didn't realize
another, let's say mutual friend, I don't know
him very well, apart from being on the on the
show. But Frank Larkin was on the show talking
about Ryan and, you know, his whole career, too.
So So yeah, there's another connection. Oh, yeah,
I haven't spoken to Frank in a long time. But
he's a good man. He's the best of the best. Absolutely.
All right. Well, very first question, where on
planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
Well, I live in Dallas, Texas, but I'm currently
in College Station, Texas right now. I'm in town.
My son, my college -age son is playing baseball
in town. So I came out here to catch a couple
of games. Brilliant. Well, let's start at the
very beginning of your timeline then. So tell
me where you were born and tell me a little bit
about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Sure. Born in Tennessee,
but lived my entire life in Virginia. My childhood
from age one to, you know, when I left town about
age 25 or 24, I guess. I am the youngest of two.
I have an older brother who's three years older.
As I write in my book, and you know, he's the
real cop in the family. 28 -year veteran police
officer, and I admire him, respect him deeply.
My mother and father, good people. My brother
and I kind of had service kind of in our bones,
I guess. We had a front row seat to watch, and
my mom was a registered nurse. My father worked
for the state of Virginia for an agency that
served the blind community. And I guess that
had an impact, even though I was too young to
realize it. But no mistake, no coincidence that
my brother and I both went into public service,
both in the law enforcement realm. I saw that
about your father. It's an interesting position.
It's funny. We were just walking in St. Augustine,
and I think it's the Florida Center for the Blind.
It's got a beautiful building there. When you
talk about just the adaptive community in general,
there's been such an evolution. And tragically,
you know, some of it came from post 9 -11, as
we'll talk about now. But what has been your
dad's observations of that community and the
technology and the reducing of the stigma for
the men and women and children that he worked
with? Yeah, no, he was very far removed from
it. He passed. He passed in 2020, in January
of 2020. and he was retired for gosh at least
15 years before that um but i just as i was watching
him uh just growing up um you know he knew that
he had a job a job that mattered a job that uh
brought people in i got to see uh blind people
blind folks come in their their clients come
into their center and learn how to learn how
to communicate and learn computer skills and
learn uh learn you know how to get a job and
all these things and they would take them on
these trips and uh and do job interviews with
them and take them and get them closed and all
these kinds of things depending on their their
level of need and um i was just always really
really impressed by that, that this agency was
working towards, you know, to the least of these,
I guess, to a community that is often neglected,
I guess I would come to later know. And I don't
know how common that is across state agencies,
but I was very impressed with the state of Virginia
and what they did. It's one of those things when
we talk about gratitude, you know, when you wake
up in the morning, you know, kind of just...
sit on your bed and take a moment to be grateful.
And we forget that that's one of the biggest
things. And I'm married to an optometrist. So,
you know, the world of vision is close to me
as well. But just simply opening your eyes and
be able to see we take that so often for granted.
And there, you know, as you said, there are people
that don't have that gift that had it taken from
them at birth or through combat. So, yeah, I
really think it's one of the best ways of reframing,
you know, what's truly important is if you just
open your eyes in the morning, you can see. Sure,
sure. And, you know, it goes across the board
in the law enforcement community, in the military
community, able -bodied men and women who enter
in the service and they leave with something,
right? Something lacking, something off. And
I'm just now starting to experience, you know,
hearing loss, hearing issues, tinnitus in one
of my ears. And, you know, it's just adapting
to it. It's not a big deal, but it makes you
wonder. It makes you wonder. um how people um
who have such a what could be a debilitating
um issue and they they just they just power through
and they learn the skills and they learn to do
things the hard way and it's very impressive
to watch from afar now what about your mother
talk to me about seeing her in in the healing
role in nursing Yeah, she did a lot of different
roles. She was also the neighborhood nurse, right?
Everyone who had an issue, who had a problem
on the block would make their way down to Donna's
house and she would heal them or give them some
care, give them some recommendations. And having
a front row seat to that, I would go see her
at work. And again, you're working with... people
that are hurting, people that have an issue,
and their family members. And she was always
really good as eyewitness with her family members.
And, you know, maybe not a coincidence. Again,
you know, I went on to marry my wife. She was
a nurse, and now she's a nurse practitioner.
And, again, she's the community nurse. People
are coming in or calling her or saying, hey,
you know, reaching out through me. It's fun to
watch. What about faith back then? Were you raised
in quite a devout Christian household as a child?
I was not, to an extent. We kind of went to church
every now and then. I wouldn't say it was at
the center of our life or the center of our family.
My father seemed to be mostly disinterested.
He was a good man, by and large, and a good father.
He really didn't offer much in the way of faith.
I came into faith myself when my parents split.
They separated when I was in the sixth grade
and divorced when I was in the eighth grade.
And at that time, I watched my mother really
lean in to faith for the first time in a real
way, right? I had a front row seat to watch.
her be broken and just kind of desperate for
something, for healing and for an outlet. And
I saw her lean into faith and it was impressive,
had a profound impact on me. And that was, you
know, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. And later
on in my high school years is when I, you know,
when I took on faith for myself and made it my
own. And it's changed the trajectory of my life
ever since. What about sports and exercise? What
were you playing and doing when you were in school
age? I mean, we were never home, right? I mean,
we were never home running around like crazy
kids and on the bikes and things like that. We
were heavy into sports, basketball, baseball.
My brother and I were really into swimming as
well. And I would use that later in my career,
which was awesome. I loved swimming. I still
do. But basketball, baseball, and I was proficient
at soccer. So in high school, you know, coming
up, doing all of those things. And then, of course,
it winnows down. And my brother was a really
good baseball player. He was left handed. I'm
left handed, but I couldn't seem to get that
left handed thing working. And he was a really
good baseball player, good pitcher. I gravitated
in high school more to basketball and soccer,
but a very physical family, always outdoors.
We lived. I didn't know how good we had it in
central Virginia. If I drove two hours to the
east, I was at the beach and in the ocean. If
I drove two hours to the west, I was in the mountains
and we were hiking. And, man, I had it good and
I just didn't know it. We made really good use
of it. What about career aspirations? I know
there was something that you did prior to entering
the Secret Service. Yeah, I'm a bit of an odd.
I mean, I was a high school history teacher,
which really doesn't make much sense. It's not
the traditional route into federal law enforcement
and especially the U .S. Secret Service. But
that's what I was doing. But in high school and
in college, I knew I was going to go to college.
But in that high school and college age time,
I was going into the military. In my mind, it
was just a matter of what branch I was trying
to decide between Navy or Marines and just kind
of young and dumb and didn't have access to the
Internet now. And, you know, my sons hear that
and they think I'm crazy. But, yeah, there was
no Internet. And if I was going to research it,
I literally would have had to go down and get
a book at the library. Right. And I wasn't doing
that. too busy doing other things so i was going
to go in the military but i just just didn't
do my didn't do my research and my senior year
of second semester my senior year of college
and i start that process and i'm quickly medically
declared medically ineligible because i had asthma
i had asthma at the time really bad when i was
a child by that time in college it wasn't It
wasn't that prevalent, but I still, you know,
I didn't meet whatever deadline they had. And
I don't know what the rules are now in the U
.S. military, but back then that was a no go.
So that door was closed and I was really, man,
I went through a season, weeks, months of trying
to figure out what am I going to do and really
being down. And because this was the only thing
I ever wanted to do. And it just so happened
I was getting a teaching degree anyway. So, you
know. James, that's why you have a fallback plan,
right? Sometimes you got to fall back. And I
fell back into teaching and I loved it. I loved
it. I did it for three and a half years. I was
coaching basketball, teaching history, just loved
it. But there was an itch that still needed to
be scratched. And it took me a while to identify
what that was. But that was just really a kind
of a servant, mission oriented, maybe even aggressive
kind of thing that. that teaching wasn't doing
for me, even though I loved it. I started looking
for other avenues and yeah, you know, fast forward
and three and a half years later, I wind up in
the U .S. Secret Service. When you talk about
asthma, it's funny. I was eliminated from the
British Fire Service because I was supposedly
colorblind with the little books that they give
you. And I could see some of them, not others.
It took me a long time to realize that I wasn't
colorblind because I could see colors. That should
have been the first hint, but that's why I'm
not in law enforcement. But you have to start
challenging tests and saying, look, this is ridiculous.
And what I ended up doing over here was just
say, point to something in the room, I'll tell
you what color it is, and then boom, I passed.
So it was just those kind of red -green deficiency
I had, not colorblindness. When you were younger
with the asthma, did you have any kind of dairy
intolerance, eczema, anything like that? No,
it was just, man, it was triggered mostly by
animals, cats and dogs and things like that.
And I had some horrific asthma attacks as a child.
And, you know, medication wasn't as great. But
I just remember times where it's just, man, if
you have an experience, it's hard to describe.
It feels like someone's sitting on your chest
and you're really trying to get in a comfortable
position and just kind of get in a little bit
of air at a time. Yeah, scary, scary at times.
I don't I don't struggle with it at all anymore.
And none of my sons do, which is a blessing.
But yeah, I never thought being as physical and
rough and tumble as my brother and I were and
all of our friends and everything that I did.
I never thought something physical would keep
me from doing anything. And in fact, the Secret
Service put me through the ringer because I was
honest with them on my medical forms. And and
they put me off through all kinds of. you know,
of tests and additional testing. And I was like,
look, by that point, I think I was like, I've
done like 30 something triathlons. This is ridiculous.
Like, what are we? And finally, I just started
talking to some people with common sense and
made it through. But it probably extended my
process, my hiring process, three or four or
five months. I think these are important stories
to hear, though. You know, when you're told that
you can't do something because you don't fit
in the box. If you really have the burning desire
to do that thing, find someone who did, who overcame
that hurdle. Because, I mean, my one was a tiny
little hurdle. And I think, again, if we're talking
about life's paths, I obviously wasn't supposed
to be a firefighter in the UK. Life took me on
such a bizarre journey, and I was supposed to
be here. But, yeah, when it came to here, if
I just said, I need to pass this book, and they
said, sorry, you don't pass the book, that was
it. but the moment you go well wait a second
how is another way that you can assess this the
same way the same with you and then you're like
wow lo and behold i'm not deficient in this area
anymore we can move forward now yeah yeah for
sure yeah and that's and you learn lessons when
you're young um you just got to be persistent
you know maybe if i push back and gone through
the waiver process and all these things but i
really didn't have my parents really weren't
involved in that whole process when i was putting
in for the military and i wasn't getting counsel
nor did i seek it honestly so um looking back
maybe things would have been different but um
i'm very pleased very happy with how it all turned
out so talk to me about the kind of um god moment
as far as your first introduction to someone
from the secret service um Yeah, I was just,
I was at a backyard barbecue with a friend, a
man I taught with, a friend of mine named Billy.
And he had a, he had a neighbor. He had a neighbor
that was a Secret Service agent in the Richmond,
Virginia field office. And I couldn't believe
it that there even was a Secret Service office
in Virginia. And I started asking him questions.
And just started talking to him and asking him,
you know, this and that. And after about 100
questions, he was very patient, man. He said,
you know, he said, look, I can tell you're interested.
Just here's my card. And he gave me his business
card. And that was during my first year of teaching.
So that was really early on. And I was interested
for sure, but I wasn't ready. I read what ready
to make a choice to make it make a switch. I
really never considered law enforcement. I always
thought that as my brother's thing, because that's
what he was already into at the time. And I just
put that as I write in my book, I just put that
card in my bedside table. And but, you know,
you open that bedside table almost every day
for something and it would just be there staring
at me. And there it sat for, gosh, two, two and
a half years before I finally just. I just like
I said before, there was an itch that wasn't
being scratched and I had to do it. And my wife,
I mean, she is she's amazing. She has adventure
in her bones. And I mentioned it to her. I said,
what do you think you want to do this? And she
was like, absolutely, let's do it. And so, yeah,
I picked up the car and made a phone call and
started the process. And just right time, right
place. They were hiring a lot of people at the
time. And I didn't check a lot of the boxes,
you know, that they were. Because most of those
guys, most of the agents are former law enforcement
or at the state or local level, or they're former
military or whatever. And there's a small percentage
of us that are other, and I was one of them.
Before we kind of actually go into your journey
in, when you reflect back now in the other side
of this profession, what elements of your experience
in teaching were assets once you got into the
Secret Service? I mean, there wasn't a lot of
overlap, but I was just I could I just I just
loved history, but I could tell stories and and
I could speak in front of people. And it's funny
because now, you know, fast forward 25 years
later, that's what I'm doing for a living professionally
now speaking in front of people. But I just knew
that. Everything I learned as a teacher, as far
as working with people, telling stories and presenting
and giving presentations and what I would later
they would become called briefings. Right. Because
in the Secret Service, it's now a briefing. And
I was always really good at that and really strong
like that. But really being a student of history
and a teacher of history, I just love it and
I appreciate it. And so everything for the next
24 years, 25 years when I was in the Secret Service
that I would encounter. I just had a greater
appreciation, I think, and respect for the magnitude,
the weight, the majesty of what was going on.
It's just the office of the presidency, right?
Or the vice presidency. I traveled to 42 different
countries in my career. And a lot of times I'd
be in places where I knew the historical backstory
to a lot of it. And it just added a lot of richness
to it, which was really helpful. But it also...
I think it's part of why I was able to be 100
% crystal clear focused on the mission. Because
I just, you know, you study history and you study
all kinds of failed experiments and failed governments.
And this thing that we have in the United States
is it ain't perfect, but it's pretty darn good.
It's the best thing going, in my opinion. And,
you know, it just means something when you take
an oath, you swear to the Constitution. Well,
when you're a student of history and you know
what the Constitution means and you swear an
oath to the office of the presidency, not the
person in the office, not, you know, Republican,
Democrat, man, woman, whoever it is, but to the
office of the presidency. It just brought a lot
of clarity and a lot of mission, focus, purpose
for me. I think those lines might be a little
blurred at the moment, but we'll talk about that
later. So pre -9 -11, talk to me about your on
-ramp into the Secret Service and the roles you
held those first couple of years. Yeah, on -ramp
in, I started in February of 2000. Our training
regiment was basically seven months, about three,
three and a half months. You go down to a place
called Glencoe, Georgia, the Federal Law Enforcement
Training Center. And that's kind of a generic.
uh special agent criminal investigator um place
boot camp kind of for all all a lot of different
federal agencies uh not the fbi but but most
others so you're kind of there just learning
generic criminal investigations and how to be
a special agent After that, we would then go
for about three and a half months to our specialized
training center in Maryland for the U .S. Secret
Service. And that's where we're learning, you
know, some of the more of the investigations,
the specific kind of investigations that we would
do. But more of the time, most of the time there
was on that protective mission, you know, what
it's like to protect the president, the vice
president and so forth and motorcade operations
and all kinds of things. So that was really both.
Both were very different. Both were very enjoyable
for me. I was a sponge. I didn't have any military
or law enforcement experience. So I'm just I
was probably an instructor's dream. Right. This
guy knows nothing. He's whatever they said was
gospel to me and kind of soaked it up and had
a lot of fun and physically, physically challenging
and demanding and learning control tactics and
combats and hand to hand stuff. Just a ton of
fun. I mean, I was 26 years old, just ready to
roll. And I was going to New York and everyone
knew what office they were going to. And I was
going to the New York field office. And there
was five of us in my training class that were
all going to that office. It was considered the
big, bad, ugly office of the service. At the
time, it was the largest field office in the
Secret Service. Went there, man, just a small
-town kid from Virginia. And here I am in the
big city. Upon graduation, my wife and I, we
moved up there. Yeah, I'll never forget that
first day just coming off the escalator. I took
the path train, the path train underneath the
Hudson River from Hoboken to the World Trade
Center and coming up those escalators. And I
walk off and I'm standing in the plaza, these
two huge looming towers standing over me. And
I was just like, all right, here we go. jumped
into an investigative squad and and then that
was uh august of 2000 and really i only had 13
months uh as a special agent as a full you know
full -on special agent before uh before the world
changed on the on september 11th i'm more familiar
with the you know close protection detail as
far as president vice presidents etc i actually
even was on the motorcade once when um uh president
excuse me Former President Biden came to town
when he was a VP still, and we were the paramedics
for him. So we followed him through Orlando at
like 60 miles an hour while the roads were blocked
off, which was quite interesting. But talk to
me about the investigation side, because you
obviously got local law enforcement, you've got
FBI, et cetera. What is the Secret Services role
in that particular area? Yeah, most folks don't
know that it's a dual mission agency. Everyone
knows us for that protective mission that you
just mentioned. And that's honestly, that's our
bread and butter. That's our number one priority.
Number two, criminal investigations. We do all
kinds of kind of white collar financial based
crimes, counterfeit money, credit card fraud,
money laundering, all kinds of computer access
device fraud. We're into network intrusion now,
even into online crimes against children and
things of that nature. So there's a lot of overlap,
unfortunately, with some of the things that the
FBI does, with some of the things that HSI does,
with some of the things that ICE may do. I think
Congress needs to step in and kind of clean that
up and we can be a little more streamlined, a
little more efficient, not have as much overlap.
But criminal investigations, you learn a lot
from that job, from working with people, working
with state officials and local officials, being
on the streets in New York, I mean, running around
the Bronx and figuring things out and how the
streets work. You learn a lot and you can apply
that to the protective mission. It just makes
you a well -rounded person. So talk to me then
about that fateful day because you had a very
tragically up close and personal experience.
So, you know, wherever you want to begin that,
let's talk about the day of 9 -11. Yeah. So our
office was in the World Trade Center, 7 World
Trade Center. And I was in the locker room. I
just finished working out with some people and
just putting on a clean suit. We're all putting
on suits that day. We had meetings and all of
a sudden we were, you know, being told to evacuate.
I didn't know why, but I just got some random
gear from my desk and went outside and we dump
out onto the street. And we were seven World
Trade Center. It was just across the street on
the north side of Tower One. You know, that first
plane came in and hit Tower One from the north
side. So we were looking at the impact zone.
And, James, I didn't know what it was. I didn't
know for most of the day, honestly. I didn't
know the totality of the circumstances. But I
knew that wasn't an accident. I knew that was
an attack. I'm a student in history. Like I said,
1993, you know, radical Islamic terrorists tried
to take down the trade center with a truck bomb.
I knew that in court documents that they vowed
that they were going to try to do it again. And
I had a feeling that was it, but I didn't know.
All I knew is that there was literally instantly
pain and suffering all around. Carnage, bodies.
uh, people with bad, uh, with bad burns, uh,
injuries. And this was, I didn't know that the
day was just getting started. So at that point,
man, we just, uh, we just entered in honestly
into first responder mode. There is nothing about
9 -11 on that day that was within our mission,
the scope of our normal mission, but a bunch
of us, myself and a bunch of other agents, uh,
we just went into first responder mode with our
basic medical training, had a huge first, uh,
first aid kits that we use for our mission. And
we just got a bunch of those and ran to the West
Side Highway where all these ambulances were
taking care of people. And we just tore open
our first aid kits and started working, going
to what I call it, doing the next thing, just
entering in. And I was, for example, just cleaning
this, irrigating and wrapping, trying to wrap
this woman's arm. And she was badly burned. I
can only assume it was jet fuel that came down
on her. But, I mean, there was. You probably
have more experience than me on this, but it
looked like skin just dripping from her fingertips.
Just that's the kind of injuries you were seeing.
It was madness. Now, was that when you were treating
people down there, was that when the second plane
hit? Yeah, yeah. And that's where I was when
I was maybe 80 yards or so from the base of Tower
2. And that second plane came screaming in with
brutal precision. And, you know, it came in a
lot lower than the first one. That's why that
tower collapsed first. But it came in screaming
and really low. And I never saw it. I never heard
it. Just had that tunnel vision. You know, we
all talk about that tunnel vision. I had tunnel
vision on this woman's arm. And next thing I
know, it's just a massive explosion over the
top of my head. I could feel I could feel the
heat on the back of my neck. And at that point,
we just chaos ruled and reigned. And we just
scattered like ants because everyone was just
running for cover. And yeah, at that point, I
was with a guy named Tom and another agent named
John. That's when we decided to run across the
street, go in the World Trade Center and start
trying to find people and help them get out.
So talk to me about what you found at that point
in the foyer. Oh, man, just weird, man. It was
really dark. There was water everywhere because
the sprinklers were going off. And we found a
stairwell that was being used as an evacuation
route. And people were steadily coming down.
And we said, why not? Let's just start going
up. We just started climbing steps one flight
after another. And being a firefighter, you've
probably done that a lot more than me. But on
this day, I got my legs, got a workout, and we're
just going. And I just remember saying to people,
I feel so stupid now, because it was fairly calm,
but people were freaking out a little bit. And
I remember saying out loud, you know, don't worry,
nothing can bring these things down. You know,
that's how ignorant I was, because I didn't even
know at that point. you know 767s and just slammed
in this buildings and um uh my ignorance was
was apparent but we just uh i encountered a woman
on the 10th floor or so and this is in the north
tower tower one and she couldn't evacuate herself
anymore and i grabbed her and i told the other
two guys to keep going i would meet him at the
next point of need and i started to carry her
down and And that wasn't working because she
was fairly large. And I just grabbed another
random stranger. And, you know, we did the fireman's
carry. We carried her down about 10 flights and
handed her off to some paramedics. And at that
point, I said goodbye to the guy. I thanked him.
And then I needed to go back up because at that
point, it was the first time, James, that day
that I was alone. I was by myself and I didn't
like it. I was timid. I was unsure. I was indecisive.
And I needed to be with my guys. I call them
my guys because all the agents I worked with
that day were guys, just so happened to be. And
so I went back up, not out of, I don't know,
courage or bravery, not really. I was just trying
to reconnect with my guys and be part of a team.
I mean, if that doesn't embody the first responder
community right there, that mindset, right? We
just know that. we just know we work better in
teams right everyone brings different skills
abilities and talents to this to the situation
and um and so that's what i did i went back up
and i i went about 30 floors about 110 floors
there i went about 30 floors and um and yeah
uh and that that was where um as i write in the
book man i i never want to share this story without
um without highlighting this part where I encountered
just a hallway full on the 30th or so floor,
a hallway full of New York City firefighters.
And they were beaten, man. They were, I mean,
you could tell they had been in the fight. I
don't know if they'd been pulled back to refit,
regroup. I'm not sure. And I had a brief conversation
with them because I was looking for the other
two agents, John and Tom. They didn't know which
way they had gone. And at that point, I was like,
man, I had no comms. I had no phone, no pager,
no nothing. I decided to go back down to the
lobby level and go outside and look for some
colleagues. And that's when I heard it, James,
man, as I was walking, as I was walking through
the doorway, I heard their fire commander say,
get your gear together, boys. We're going back
up. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks.
You know, the difference between them and me
in that moment was I didn't have all the facts.
If I had all the information, 767s, and so maybe
I wouldn't have even been there, honestly, if
I'm being honest. But those men and women in
that hallway, man, they knew. They had comms.
They knew the threat. They knew the danger. They
knew the magnitude, or they had a much better
idea of the magnitude of it. And they were going
up anyways. And that's why forever, whenever
I tell this story and share this story in front
of groups and so forth, I just want to honor.
I have no way of knowing for sure, but I'm only
assuming they're part of the 343, you know, New
York City firefighters who died that day. Part
of the 422 first responder community that died
that day. And as long as, and so I speak to a
lot of fire groups and stuff today. And I tell
them this, man, as long as this nation keeps
producing young men and women that are willing
to do that, it gives me hope. It still gives
me hope. I'm an eternal optimist. It gives me
hope because I may have seen the worst of humanity
that day, but I saw the best of America. And
that was a big part of it. In the book, you also,
if I remember rightly, talk about making a phone
call prior to the clams. Talk to me about that.
And then tell me as well what your wife's reaction
was when you finally got to talk to her about
it. Gosh, probably the dumbest thing. The one
regret I have that day is when I got back down
to the 30th floor, I saw these fire commanders
and they were all like manning the phones at
the desk and stuff. And I was like, well, I should
call my wife. But none of those phones were free.
So there's a bank of pay phones over there. uh
you know i talk to young groups sometimes today
they don't even know what a pay phone is change
but i called her man i called her collect from
the lobby of the world trade center um just just
so stupid and and uh you know we had a really
brief conversation i said i'm in the lobby trade
center I'm helping people get out. I will see
you soon. I love you. You know, and hung up and
just wanted to kind of calm her mind. Well, I
hung up the phone and what she didn't know is
that the second I hung up the phone, I went outside
the complex. I left the building to look for
my people, look for my colleagues. All she knows
is that 13 minutes later, and I know because
I have the phone records of the call, 13 minutes
later, she watches, you know, Tower 2 collapse.
And the last thing I had said to her was, i'm
in the lobby of the world trade center helping
people get out and um yeah man in that 13 minutes
she called you know her parents my parents and
my brother and her brother you know all of our
friends and and so they all uh in theory in their
mind at least they watched me die on live tv
as that tower collapsed and uh it just yeah it
it's it's one of the few partners i tell the
story all the time i wrote the book and all of
it was for good and for healing and it's great
but it's one of the few things when i talk about
it now it still gets me still gets me yeah i
can see exactly that what about from the ground
now so you're outside the building you know the
building comes down you know again what is what
is the experience from the outside yeah i mean
i I heard it. I heard it happening before it
happened. I heard the metal on metal screeching
sound. And I looked up and man, the Talpa Tower
too buckled. And I was standing there like. I
don't know about again, about 80 yards from the
base, just like crazy, stupid close. And my first
thought was I'm dead. And my second thought was
run. And I started running like hell. I was 27
years old. I was a lot quicker then. But man,
I was I started running and I hear the concussion
of each each floor collapsing. Right. And then
large chunks of debris starts to fall all around
me. And I realized I am not. I'm not outrunning
this monster, right? And next thing I know, I
mean, I was going to get under a fire truck for
safety. I thought about it and I didn't. And
then I saw a pickup truck. I was going to get
under that and I didn't. And I'm just, I'm churning,
I'm churning, I'm churning. And then, man, that
just bright, beautiful day became a dark night,
dark night of horrors. Everything became black
and my eyes and ears and nose were instantly
filled with pulverized concrete. And the thing
is though, and this is all seconds, right? I'm
still sprinting and running because large chunks
of debris are falling all around me. I mean,
it sounded like cars falling out of the sky.
And that lasted for several more seconds or strides.
And I mean, at this point, I was running up Church
Street. I had turned right or banked right onto
Vesey Street and didn't even know it. And at
that point, yeah, stuff starts. stuff starts
stops falling all around me and i start to walk
and start to stagger and try to try to figure
out what i'm going to do next so when now as
you turn around obviously you've got this you
know like you said it's just darkness all the
debris and the dust cloud what are you able to
do after that i mean I saw sunlight. It was the
craziest thing. I saw like piercing, like a,
like a beam. I saw sun. And I was like, that's,
that's crazy. And I walked across the street
and I realized I was looking up an alley at the
other end of the alley and there was sunlight.
And, and so I was like, sweet, I'm just going
to run up this skinny alley and get out of here,
go North, get out of here. And at that point,
man, it just, the screams in the darkness stopped
me in my tracks. I just heard people screaming.
I'm hurt. Someone help me. I can't see. Where
am I? Somebody help me. I can hardly move. You
know, these I heard these screams and I didn't
know what to do because there was just so much
blackness. And I just figured the best thing
I could do is be a beacon, kind of be a lighthouse
to the light. And so I just started screaming
and yelling at the top of my lungs, follow the
sound of my voice. Come this way. Come this way.
Come to me. Come to me. Like, you know, just
kept on repeat yelling. and so people would hear
my voice and keep coming in my direction and
when they made their way to me i would i would
shoot them up the alley uh toward towards the
sunlight and i don't know time has really warped
on that whole thing i it felt like you know 20
minutes it may have been five i'm not sure but
i bet 10 or 15 people made their way to me and
as they staggered to me i would just say go go
go go go north go up the alley um but by the
time it was my turn to go up the alley i turned
around and and the light was gone and it was
black and uh there was there was there was nowhere
to go or so it seemed so uh yeah just uh i mean
i don't think i'm i'm not i'm not saving the
world in that situation uh and i really don't
know what i was thinking uh i was just choosing
i say this on in the book a lot courage is a
choice i was just choosing to stay choosing to
enter in choosing to um fight whatever fight
was in front of me and just kind of and that
message just really resonates with the military
resonates with the first responder community
uh choosing to bring some good some light into
dark into the dark places and um that with that
comes you know trauma and baggage and damage
but um some of us are made for it you know what
i mean absolutely there's that one quote you
have in the book um and i'm i'm totally butchering
it but it was about you know not you know that
the warrior doesn't so that he can address evil
from the front, but he fights or she fights because
they're protecting the people that they love
behind them. And I thought that was a beautiful
quote. Yeah, that's a great G .K. Chesterton
quote, if I remember correctly. It was about
combat and soldiers, but the soldier doesn't
fight because he hates what's in front of him.
He fights because he loves what's behind him.
And man, that is the heartbeat of the veteran
and the first responder community, in my opinion.
100%. So remind me, because I'm a little fuzzy
of the timeline. Was it then that you found some
of your fellow Secret Service guys or was it
after the collapse of the second tower? That
was after the collapse of the second tower. The
time between the two towers was madness. I mean,
it's kind of warped, but I mean, just I saw the
best of people, though. I saw New Yorkers pouring
out of. pouring out of bodegas and pharmacies
and convenience stores with food, with water,
with first aid supplies, you know, taking care
of each other. There's a big dude on the corner
with two five -gallon water jugs on his shoulders
and people were just coming up and drinking and
I used it to flush everything out of my face.
But at some point in there, at some point in
there, I don't remember making the decision.
I turned back and I went back to the World Trade
Center site and I was right back at the same
intersection, Church and Betsy Street, when I
heard the same noise, the same noise that I had
heard previously, that weird metal on metal.
I just couldn't believe it. I was like, oh, my
gosh, here we go again. I started sprinting again.
This time I went a different direction. I ran
north. And then within seconds, yeah, just the
pancaking of the floors. I heard it again and
I could not. It just wasn't computing. I had
a little bit of a head start on that one. So
I knew I had a chance. And that's where I just
threw my shoulder through a revolving door and
I landed in a bank. And as that big debris cloud
went by me, I was safe. I had shelter. I had
refuge from it. But at that point, to your question,
about a minute later, I hear that whoosh of the
revolving door. And I look up and it's two of
my guys. to a guy named uh john beck and rob
donovan two young agents that were new just like
me and they look terrible just like me um but
man for the first time i think it's like an hour
or so man i had life i had wind in my sails i
was now part of a group again part of a team
again and i knew i didn't know what we were going
to do but i knew i was going to be much more
effective moving forward So talk to me about
how you ended up living most cop's dream, which
is becoming a firefighter for a few hours. Yes,
yes, yes. If you could have seen it, you would
have, if it wasn't such a tragic situation, you
would have been like, oh my gosh, these clowns
are doing it all wrong. Man, we went out, we
formed, we were in this lobby. We waited about
10 minutes for that. cloud to dissipate a little
bit and we formed two search parties and we went
out um and we went back James we just at any
point we could have turned north could have turned
north and walked out of it uh but courage is
a choice and maybe if I was by myself maybe that's
what I would have done but I was with my dudes
and uh we were going back we didn't even discuss
it and and we went back with just naively thinking
we were going to find survivors and we were just
finding bodies And that hellscape, I call it,
what it looked like in the moments as the sun
started to come in a little bit and you're starting
to make things out was total insanity. Everything
was on fire. I went back to church in Vesey Street
on this corner of the complex, and that's where
I went every time. Man, just police cars were
on fire. Ambulances were on fire. Gas tanks popping
off. You know, they don't make this huge, big
Hollywood explosion, I learned. And then office
paper was everywhere. The area was covered in
office paper. And that was all on fire. I mean,
at the end of the day, my pants were like three
inches shorter because I kept catching fire.
The soles of my shoes were melted, malformed.
But we're standing there. And there is one, I
don't, it just still baffles me. Everything is
destroyed except across, catty corner across
the intersection is one New York City fire truck.
And it is not damaged. It looks rough, but it's
not damaged. And Rob, yeah, Rob said, hey, man,
we should hook up a hose to that fire truck and
start putting out all these fires. And honestly,
as I write in the book, my first thought was
not positive. I was like, that is dumb. i mean
we don't know what we're doing how are we going
to do that and honestly shamefully i say this
i remember thinking at one point where are all
the firefighters it's it just it's still i didn't
have a grip on the toe the magnitude of what
just happened i mean james you know what not
now i know they're gone 343 of them just erased
and uh and it would take time for units from
all over the city you know to make their way
in uh to that scene and so rob had the idea i
didn't have the idea well john before i can chime
in and kill the idea john says you know what
here's your dude you would love john uh i i was
a volunteer firefighter back in the day back
in high school i bet i could remember it and
uh and this is where frank larkin enters the
story you mentioned frank earlier frank was a
former ceo former uh emt rescue guy from maryland
state police like he was mr everything he was
a one -man task force frank uh frank knew a little
had a little knowledge on it too so we go over
there and i pull out the hose they start feeding
it to me and um yeah frank and and john start
you know throwing levers and turning knobs and
i'm still not confident but sure enough water
starts pouring out of this hose and um and uh
we just they joined me on the nozzle and we became
this amateur hour you know clown show uh firefighting
team and and we had one mission really and that
and rob said it he's like let's clear the intersection
and that's what we did uh we just we took one
car fire after another and we said we're just
going to dominate this one little space we can't
put out all the fires we can't find all the people
or the survivors. We can't bring any kind of
peace into this whole scene, but we can at least
bring some stability and some peace into this
little intersection. And I think that's a really
good way to approach life. We can talk more about
that later. But yeah, we were terrible at it.
Yes, James, you were terrible at it at first.
We figured it out. If I'm being honest, Rob figured
it out the best. We were most effective when
Rob was on the picture of it in my book. You
can see and it's it's not pretty, but what we
did our job. And here's a really cool part. I
love looking back on this part of the story.
Eventually, you know. firefighters from all over
the city are making their way into the scene
you know the professionals show up and they've
got much bigger hoses and all these couplings
and all that i don't even know what they're doing
they're hooking up the hydrants and um and at
no point did any of them tell us to stop you
know uh none of them told us to get out of the
way uh we were kind of honorary members there
at least for an hour or so and and that was really
cool it was just all hands on deck and Eventually,
we literally ran out of rope. We reached the
end of our line, and that's when we chose to
step back, retreat a little bit, assess the situation,
and figure out what we're going to do next. It's
a beautiful story. Again, it's haunting, like
you said, when you realize that the equipment
was all there, whatever condition it was in,
but none of the personnel were there. I can't
imagine how horrendous that must have been, especially
in this. There's a clip going around the internet
again for some reason. not resurface, but become
popular. And it's when one of the firefighters
collapses after one of the towers comes down
and he sees, and he knows exactly what's just
happened and how many of his brothers, you know,
he's lost in that collapse. So, so yeah, I can,
I mean, I can't imagine that's the point and
it breaks my heart thinking about it. So you,
you have that situation. You're able to, as you
said, you know, make a difference in that one
area that you're actually in. How did the rest
of that day kind of pay out? We did some other
things. We went down to the mezzanine level and
we joined some firefighters to search for some
survivors. And then the whole partially collapsed
down there. And so we were all called to evacuate
there. And we did all that. And at the end of
the day, we finally, Frank had a radio. And we
finally heard where all the Secret Service agents
were relocating. So, you know, this day was for
us, at least for me, you know, it all started
at 0846 when that first tower got hit. And this
is somewhere between three and four o 'clock.
The four of us decided to leave the scene to
drive about 30 blocks north to Chelsea Piers
to where the Secret Service kind of where our
rendezvous point had been relocated. And and
that's what we did. And we went up there. We
got some basic, you know, some we weren't badly
hurt or anything, but just, you know, cuts and
bruises and needed oxygen for sure. And needed
to flush everything out with water. And within
an hour, though, I mean, I was there maybe an
hour. I don't know. It was a logistical Herculean
effort. But, you know, then I became a bunch
of us became a part of that. The great 9 -11
boat lift where I end up me and about a dozen
agents. that lived in New Jersey just across
the river, we ended up getting on a Nassau County
police boat and taking the boat over across the
river and got dropped in Hoboken where I lived
and walked a few blocks, just kind of zombie
walked, walked a few blocks home. And yeah, and
that's when my wife walked up my final couple
of flights of steps to the third floor apartment
that I had and my wife opened the door and that's
when, you know. yeah, she had spent most of the
day thinking I was gone. And so we were able
to kind of embrace and, and yeah, it was beautiful.
It was messy, but it was beautiful. I had one
of the Coast Guard members that were on the boat
lift. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think wasn't
it like half a million people that they evacuated
with, you know, military boats, law enforcement
boats, and then a load of civilian boats as well.
In one day, it surpassed the number of evacuations
of Dunkirk, the Battle of Dunkirk in World War
II. I mean, it was just a Herculean effort. It's
mind -boggling. But everyone responded. The Coast
Guard put out a call and said, any vessel available,
meet at Governor's Island. I was right off of
the tip of Manhattan. I liked, as I write in
the book, the citizens of New York showed up.
They answered the call. They answered the bell.
And I was able to get home that day. Because
the only other way for me would have been walking
across a bridge. Just amazing to see what people
can do when they're all pulling in the same direction.
Absolutely. I used the word civilian. I meant
to use the word citizen. So one of the things
that... everyone I've had on the show talks about
is 9 -12. And you hear this even more recently,
I miss 9 -12. And I'd say right now, we probably
miss it even more than we have since, since it
actually happened. But I love the way that you
kind of dig into that citizen versus civilian.
So let's talk about that for a moment. Yeah,
yeah. I borrowed that from a good friend of mine,
Clint Bruce, a former Navy SEAL, and asked him
if I could put that in his book. And we were
having coffee one day, and he started discussing
the difference between a civilian and a citizen.
And a civilian is me -focused. A civilian is
someone who's just kind of going through life,
and their situational awareness is close to zero.
They're a consumer of society and they take,
take, take, and they give only what they have
to give. And they go through life and they're
not necessarily bad or good. They're just kind
of not having much of an impact on their community,
wherever you are. But a citizen is different.
You and I were part of the first responder community.
That's a different set, but they're citizens.
chooses to enter into hard times and in difficult
places for the betterment of their community,
right? They're not always consuming. Most of
their time is often giving, thinking of others,
elevating the needs of others above themselves.
And I saw on September 11th and then in the days
following, the weeks following, I saw citizens
answer the bell. I mean, just. uh really choose
to address the problems and the needs in their
community in a really really beautiful way and
um you know everyone in that bank for example
when we made that search party we said who wants
to go my recollection is everyone said yeah we'll
go i mean they were i call them citizens they
were citizens they were choosing to go back to
where all the fire was uh so that we might be
able to find some some survivors um is um it's
a clear distinction and so i mean i I just challenge
people. To serve your community, you don't have
to be a first responder or a military member
or whatever, or a public servant or a political
official. You just have to be a citizen. And
it's a very powerful thing when people are all
pulled in the same direction. I hear this over
and over again. Like I said, what we've seen
that time, what we've seen, the Vegas shooting.
It doesn't have to be some horrendous attack,
but when things happen, the people that all band
together and pick the car up off the pedestrian
after they've been hit. We see this over and
over and over again. I would argue that more
often than not, you see it amongst the regular
people. I would argue that a lot of people in
politics are actually civilians, not citizens,
and therein lies the problem. how do we nurture
that because i believe that most people have
that in their heart i really do sadly the problem
is that we're getting these slivers as extremism
blasted into us day in day out at the moment
how do we nurture that you know goodness that
i think most americans do have or anyone listening
from whatever country they're from I think the
pendulum swings, and when the pendulum swings
and when it gets to its apex on one side, it's
not good. When it gets to the other side, it's
not good. And I think we need to focus on what
we have in common more than anything, either
as American citizens or citizens or civilians
that are in this community, right? Focus on the
things that bind us together more. I think you
can... You can illuminate people's differences
and different cultures and what they bring into
it and allow people to be in their communities
and to be in their cultures and keep some of
those ways. I think that can be done. I don't
think this is an either or proposition. I think
it's an and both. But I think we often need to
focus on what we have in common as Americans.
I'll just say out loud, I'm more of a conservative
guy. If I sat down with someone who's more of
a liberal person, if we sat down and talked about
everyday stuff, we're agreeing, James, on 80
% of the issues. We really are. And even the
things we're not agreeing on, we have the same
end goal, the end objective, maybe just a different
way of doing it. But man, in this hyper social
media landscape that we live in, It's unfortunately
those, I don't know if it's 10 % or on each side,
on each end, I don't know, but whatever number
it is, it's just so elevated and prominent when
there's so many in the normie middle. And that
doesn't mean you don't have values and you don't
have things that you fight for and stand for.
It just means you don't see the other side as
someone who thinks differently as an enemy or
as a bad person or someone that. uh where their
idea their thoughts are going to be dangerous
to me or something um that's what i love about
your since i've been following you that like
your social media stuff is on repeat it's just
it's like citizens in action really you show
these videos and like you said so many of them
are not people in the first responder community
they're not the guardians they're normal everyday
people I think it was you, did you post one the
other day or two ago with this civilian who just
grabs a wounded police officer and drags him
out of a firefight or something? Was that you
or was that somebody else? Yeah, and he was a
former incarcerated man as well. So that doesn't
define him, of course, but it just illustrates
that at one point, the other side of the law
could be very anti -police, but it was the opposite.
And he sees a man down, not a police officer.
Now he sees a man down, a citizen down. And he
grabbed, he entered in, he literally goes into
a firefight, grabs the guy and helps pull him
out of that. Oh my gosh. I was, yeah, you, you,
you rocked me with that one. Well done. Well,
I think this is it. I mean, all I, and this is
the same with these conversations. I've had people
on the show that are extremely right -leaning,
extremely left -leaning in their, you know, certain
areas, but. even then you can start in the middle
the shared humanity you know and the moment you
kind of deviate too far okay well let's let's
just bring it back you know let's just have this
conversation and then most of us when you see
you know people of different faiths different
sexualities you know whatever the thing is then
that becomes something as you said that you celebrate
that's that's a nuance it's an interesting different
tell me what it's like to be aboriginal in australia
or you know whatever the that the thing is but
at first Whether you're in the outback or in
the frozen Alaskan territory somewhere, you care
about your children's safety, feeding your family,
the comfort probably of whatever animals that
you have. I mean, most of us, it's dogs around
the planet. These are things that we all share.
And we don't want our stuff stolen. And we want
to feel deep love. And we want to be a protector.
So the moment that you... Throw that all the
way because someone wears a red hat or a blue
hat and disregard everything else at the detriment
of actually your nation that we're seeing at
the moment. That's what just, I mean, it just
kills me because most of us, as you said, we
just want to be a functioning member of our community
collectively and watch our children grow up,
make sure they're safe, make sure they're fed,
and then kind of help them become the next generation.
Absolutely. And all you want to do is pass that
down. And so as a father, as a father of four
sons, for me, for example, I have to make sure
of what my boys are watching and what they're
hearing and what they're... And if it's counter
to the values that my wife and I, their mother,
are teaching them, I'm like, no, no, we're not.
You're disparaging an entire group of people
because of what some Yahoo on YouTube said? No,
let's find one of those people. Let's go talk
to them. Let's bring them in. Let's have coffee
with them. Let's have them over for dinner. Let's
go shovel the ice off of their sidewalk during
a snowstorm. All of these things, right? Let's
do that and see how people interact. And we've
been able to do that successfully in our little
community. But the voices, yeah, from the outside,
the voices on that toxic far right, far left,
and it's just amplified by the social media.
As a parent, you have to be on it. You have to
be on it. And you have to make a stand and say,
no, this is not who we are, right? And you have
to really be a watchdog, be that watchman on
the wall to kind of shepherd your children through
that. Because if you're not teaching them, the
world is. And who knows what they're getting
from the world, right? So that's the way we view
it. And that's how we have to get the young folks
to just kind of be open -minded and see each
other as citizens and focus often on what we
all have in common and the shared values that
we all have in common as opposed to just blasting
people. I was going to talk about this later,
but I think this is a good place to put that
in now. You in the book talk about Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
And it's interesting because there is a strong
parallel. When I actually put him in Instagram,
and there were a lot of videos where there's
been a dramatization. I think it's literally,
ironically, a film about him just about to come
out. I grew up in a Christian, I wouldn't say
even a Christian family. I was exposed to Christianity.
So I went to St. Mark's school, for example,
and we had every, I forget what it was, Monday
morning, we had some sort of service and went
to Sunday school in my local church. And it was
like Church of England, so it was very doomy
gloomy and I wasn't completely enamored with
it, but I absolutely took away the lessons of
compassion and empathy and community and service.
And when I look at this landscape now, I feel
like that religion has been hijacked by people
who are claiming to be under it, but the actions
are nothing. They do not reflect Christianity.
They do not reflect the actions of Christ. Now,
a big part of your book is obviously your faith
base, your Christianity perspective that you
have. Talk to me about that, being from that
faith and seeing. um you know voices somewhat
hijacking um a religion and then doing deeds
that would would i would argue be the complete
opposite of what the teachings are trying to
tell us yeah uh for me as christian you have
to yeah those are tricky waters to navigate and
trying to navigate them is kind of like a like
a minefield sometimes you have to focus on For
me, the scriptures are holy. The New Testament,
the Old Testament, the Bible, it's holy, it's
inerrant. And oftentimes I read things in scriptures
and see things in scriptures that make me uncomfortable,
that make me like, wow, is that really true?
Man, that's hard. But I come to expect that.
I mean, you know, God says in the book of Isaiah
that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts
and his ways are higher than our ways. So it
shouldn't shock me that. the way that the the
creator of the universe set things up is going
to sometimes offend my modern sensibilities right
and and i have to wrestle with that and there's
and there's a tension there um but at no point
should uh should those scriptures should the
word be you know like a a club that you're gonna
bludgeon uh someone over the head for uh the
the scriptures are very the commands of jesus
if you just look at the what we call the red
letters you know the words of jesus are very
clear uh speak truth Speak God's truth, but speak
it in love and speak it with compassion. And
I think it's, there's this, as I'm trying to
teach my boys, it's unloving to, in the name
of being nice, to not speak truth and just let
people say or do things that they think are,
that you know is not God's best for them. But
at the same time. You have to do that in a loving
way because you know what? I care about you,
right? Our tactic is not to hit people over the
head with the Bible. Our tactic is to have them
over for dinner and to love on them and show
them kindness, show them compassion. And at some
point, you earn the right to be heard about whatever
your faith is, right? So that, for me... I have
to focus on the granular level, on my personal
interactions with people who may not see the
world and see faith the way I do. And having
kids in my home, like friends of my sons that
are in my home that may not think that way, all
that is good. But they're seeing more of the
compassionate side. I mean, you need to be, as
a guy I follow says, You know, be the be the
the lamb of God for your children will be the
line of Judah. You know, you know, you lamb of
God with your children, but the line of Judah
for your children. And so that's that's a delicate
that's a delicate walk to to walk. But it's the
walk. And so for me as a father, my wife and
I consult on this frequently. And when we see
things from maybe it's Christian leaders or or
people that I mean, some of the. the toxic hateful
stuff coming from, from, from that, from, I'll
just have to say my community is from people
that are new to the faith sometimes. And I don't
think they have a real foundation in the scriptures
or I question. It makes me question their true
belief at all, because the gospels say, the Christian
gospels say that when the spirit of God indwells
you, when you've made the decision to accept
Jesus into your heart, for example, that that
spirit of God indwells you, there will be fruit.
You'll see fruits, love, kindness, patience,
goodness, gentleness, self -control. Those are
some of the fruits of the spirits from Galatians
5. Well, if I'm saying that. a believer who says
he is, but he's spewing hate and, and anger and
calling names. And I don't see any of those fruits
as listed in the scripture. I'm like, brother,
you're a fraud. Um, so it's, so I have to call
it out. I have to call it out, especially with
my kids and, and, and make sure that they see
what's genuine and what's not. See, the other
area where I see is, is a lack of courage. And
we were talking about that a lot, having the
courage to, to move forward. But, One of the
biggest areas that we're lacking is moral courage.
When something is simply wrong, and it might
be to people of a different faith or whatever
it is, but when something is simply draw a line
in the sand wrong, there is a lot of silence
at the moment. So I had actually really hadn't
heard of Dietrich before. So kind of educate
us on who he was. And let's talk about the courage
in this case, obviously, in Christianity to stand
up. and actually be a voice when atrocities are
happening around you. Yeah, Bonhoeffer was a
pastor in Germany during the rise of the Nazi
party in the 1930s in Germany. You know, the
Nazis were making all kinds of noise, just from
a historical perspective. But at first, they
weren't coming after the Christians. And if you
look, if you do an examination of the Christian
church in Germany during that rise, there were
not a lot of bold, courageous leaders in the
Christian church speaking out against this. They're
like, well, you know what? They're crazy. They're
saying all these evil things. But you know what?
They're not coming after us. Well, Bonhoeffer
during that time was one of the few German pastors
that was just out loud, you know, condemning
Nazi ideology and so forth and actually working
to subvert it and all that kind of stuff. Well,
his friends, associates. The heat was on. It
was rumored that he was going to be arrested,
and they convinced him to flee to America, and
he did. He fled to America, and he's there, and
he's safe, as I write in the book, because he's
in America, and this is late 1930s, and he lasts
like two weeks. He just knew in his guts that
it was God's will. The smart thing was, hey,
get out of here. The heat is on. Go for safety.
But he's like, this is not God's will for me.
I'm supposed to be back fighting the good fight
and speaking truth against evil. And so after
about two weeks, he goes back to Nazi Germany.
And I mean, his story is fascinating. I mean,
you read it and you're right. There is a movie
coming out soon. I mean, he becomes, he has like
seminary on the run. He's teaching in different
places. He doesn't stay in one place for more
than two nights at a time or something like that.
He cooperates with the German resistance inside
the German military. There's some people say
he even worked for British intelligence or as
a courier for a little bit. I mean, he just boldly.
And he's even associated or linked through associations
with one of the assassination attempts on Adolf
Hitler. But he eventually gets arrested and he
spends his last final year in a German prison.
And right at the end of World War II, before
the Nazi collapse, he's executed. He's hung.
And I think reading his readings and studying
a man like that. um we're all called to be i
mean he was built he was on this earth for that
fight uh for that reason and he died but man
he died with a full heart a full heart of courage
um because he was he was living out god's plan
for his life it was just there was just such
but i give a quote there and i'm gonna butcher
it um But there was a German doctor that witnessed
the execution and said something to the effect
of, I've never seen a man die so willingly to
the will of God. He just did it. He laid it all
down because he knew he was doing what he was
created to do. And really, the heart and soul
of my book is all about that. is pursuing the
reason why you were born at this time, in this
place, in this particular community for a reason,
for a purpose. Now, what is it? Let's figure
out what it is. And now let's spend the rest
of our days getting after it, bringing light
into darkness, bringing goodness into the hard
places. Because this world is full of problems,
James. And I think you and I and everyone were
created to be part of the solution for at least
one. See, I couldn't agree more. When I was reading
it, I was just, you know, this is it. And it's
something that I've actually been kind of thinking
about recently. How many times do you hear people
say, oh, if there was a time machine, I'd go
back and kill Hitler? Well, would you, though?
Because Dietrich was there at that moment, and
he had such moral courage and such faith and
belief that this was, as I said, the right thing
to do, regardless of all the politics and all
that stuff. that it ultimately ended, you know,
he gave his life. And it's something that, you
know, so many people listening have said, if
that, you know, if we ever come to that point,
I will give my life trying to rescue someone
from a fire in a gunfight, you know, whatever
it is. And we, this is it. We are there now.
We are just stepped out of that time machine.
And there are elements of society at the moment,
whether it's domestic, whether it's international,
where our voices actually can turn things around.
So you've found that time machine. You've stepped
out. What are you going to do today? And this
is what I was so inspired by his story about.
And that's what leaves a legacy. You know, the
impact of let's just stick with Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
His impact didn't end when he died, when he was
hanging from that rope in a German prison yard.
I mean, his writings became exponentially more
popular after his death. just copy after copy
of his writings, of his teachings. There's books
about him. There's movies about him. If he had
been the quiet, nice guy and just shepherded
his little flock and stayed out of the fray,
you and I would have no idea who he is today,
right? Absolutely. Have you ever seen the footage,
the BBC footage, I think, of an auditorium and
there's a woman, Esther Ransom, I think is the
person who's interviewing. And there's a gentleman,
elderly gentleman, Nicholas Winton. And he's
in this big audience. And they say, it was kept
secret for so many years, but you actually managed
to get hundreds of children out of, I forget
which European country it was, but he rescued
hundreds of children from the Nazis. And then
he said, can anyone in this room who was rescued
by Nicholas stand up? And the whole auditorium
stands up. And these are all people that are
kind of middle -aged now. That's the same thing.
Imagine the courage, because obviously he risked
his life saving these children. And now this
room, and you think about how many children they
had. And now as we hear, this was probably in
the 80s, this interview. So now how many grandchildren,
great -grandchildren. So tens of thousands of
people were saved again by his moral courage.
Right, right. The impact, you can't even measure
it, the ripple effect through generations and
generations. That's why what we do and what we
say today matters. And that's one of the reasons
I wanted to write this book, was to give an historical
account, to add something to the history of 9
-11, to give my sons something to hold on to,
but to have a message that can never be erased
and never be taken away, and for it to have an
impact, hopefully, for generations through my
family and through the people that I'm... I'm
trying to impact today with my life. Absolutely.
I mean, what is the point of history leaving
lessons if we refuse to learn from them? We just
look at them as, oh, that was sad. Let's move
on. No, no, no. There's so much more than that.
Yes. Well, interesting kind of intersection.
Obviously, you are in the Secret Service. A few
days later, President Bush comes to ground zero.
So talk to me about that. You've gone home, back
to New Jersey. You've seen your wife. How does
that kind of unfold? Wow, that was so powerful.
The next day, September 12th, just kind of trying
to recalibrate and see what's going on with the
world. Everything is upside down. It was later
that evening. So that's Tuesday, excuse me, Wednesday,
the 12th, that a news report came out. I was
hanging out with some other agents and news report
came out that, you know, the White House announces
that President Bush will be visiting Ground Zero
on Friday, the 14th. And man, it was game on
at that point. The next day we spent getting
new equipment and everything and getting ready
and trying to do some kind of. advance to prepare
for the president. You know, the president of
the United States comes to your city at least
10 days of advance work and, you know, and planning
and working with the local authorities. And this
was like a day and a half. And I was very, very
junior age and I didn't participate in that advance
work, but I was called to. yeah to serve on on
september 14th friday morning when president
bush came and as uh as the lord would have it
i think that i was back at that almost that same
intersection where i spent my battlefield on
september 11th i was back at that same place
and man We had a plan in place, a loose plan
in place, but it quickly went out the window
and things got sloppy and messy really quickly
because, you know, the governor was there, the
mayor was there and all the important people
who want to be part of this huge event. And,
man, it just it got nasty pretty quickly. So
I was just just over a year as a Secret Service
agent. And at one point I look over and I'm I'm
five or six feet from President Bush. That is
not supposed to happen for such a junior agent.
and so what that allowed me to do and this is
where i just i'm student history i saw uh as
i write in my book i saw commander -in -chief
hear directly from his people like from the common
man uh hear it and receive it um there was a
blood lust in the air there was anger uh they
were not angry towards him and all of that was
friendly and civil but They were speaking to
their president. This was, you know, the steam
fitter, the firefighter, the construction worker.
These are these are real rough people and they're
angry and they're telling their president. Eyeball
to eyeball, you know, you get these guys. We
want justice. We want revenge. And a lot of words
were said. I mean, I can't even repeat some of
the words. It would make you blush. But, yeah,
he heard it. He received it. And I saw him. And
then, you know, moments later, he's grabbing
that megaphone. And that moment, I was just a
few feet from him when he said, you know, I hear
you. The rest of the world hears you. And the
people who knocked down these buildings will
hear all of us soon, right? the place just went
nuts, USA chance. And I just, I'm getting goosebumps
right now. I'm just thinking about it. And so
it's a powerful, powerful moment. And I have
no doubt that, that, that he would hearken back
to that in the, in the coming years. And when
things got hard and that, you know, he remembered
the promise he made to those people, which was,
you know, that there would be justice. So not
to get into the politics of, you know, what happened
the next 10, 15 years, but that moment, man,
was powerful and made it one of the high watermarks
of my professional career. So as we kind of get
away from that event now, you know, kind of just
go into the next couple of decades of your career,
did you find yourself in the Middle East in any
of those roles at all? I did. I went to 42 different
countries during my career. I was in Jordan,
Turkey, United Arab Emirates. I was never in
Iraq or Israel. And then a lot of different spots
in Africa as well. So I found myself going back
there quite a bit. And then you said you were
a junior agent before. Did you end up becoming
close protection with the president? With President
Bush? With any of them as you progress through
your career. Yeah, as I progressed through my
career, you know, I did my first 10 years in
New York, and then we go to what we call phase
two of our career. And that's when you go into
permanent, everyday protective mode, protection
mode. And I chose, that's when President Bush,
George W. Bush was coming out of office in 09.
I chose to be part of his transition team. So
I left New York and went to Dallas, Texas, because
that's where he was going to live as a former
president. And I chose to do that. And maybe
possibly because a part of me, there was a connection
there. And so I did that for a good number of
years, about five years. I was with President
Bush on his protective detail every day for five
years. And that was a great assignment, really
good assignment. And then I went back into the
field for my last 10 years in the Dallas field
office. But I was doing protection work all the
time. I mean, the operational tempo never slowed
down after 9 -11. And yeah, all over the world,
all over the country, a really rewarding career,
but a lot of sacrifices along the way, you know,
a lot of sacrifices for the family, especially.
I don't know if this is a question you're even
able to ask, but I would imagine it must be pretty
tough to be. president during that event, obviously
be president for some of the years following,
and then have to relinquish the reins when the
air quotes job isn't finished yet. Did you ever
kind of witness the impact or the kind of ripple
effect of that when he left the White House?
Not necessarily. I mean, because if you had told
us, right, that... that oh within eight within
seven years from now surely this there'll be
a bow in this thing right and it'll be done we
all would have said yes of course but that wasn't
the case right um i wasn't working the night
that he was notified like when they got bin laden
and so forth um but um i was with him the next
morning uh after that um and we were actually
ironically we were going to dc we were already
uh scheduled to go on a trip to dc and um yeah
there were some things said some things shared
that i'll keep i'll keep private um but um i
know it was uh yeah it was a marker for him that
um that was very very powerful and then all the
people in the in that orbit um but you know as
we know history history history doesn't stop
right history and uh that conflict kept going
on and on and and um yeah to for for better or
for worse absolutely what about the ripple effect
physically and mentally of that extremely traumatic
event as you progress through your career or
even during your transition out? Yeah, I recently
spoke with another 9 -11 survivor, secret service
agent, and her and I were kind of comparing stories.
And unfortunately, just think about the pre -9
-11 world and the post -9 -11 world. It's completely
different. I mean, the world is like a snow globe,
right? It's got shook up. And in my line of work,
protection, you know, our operational tempo just
went through the roof. That treadmill went from,
you know, seven miles an hour to 10 or 11. And
what we were doing the previous week with five
agents, now we were doing with 10 agents. And
that was the initial response. And all of a sudden,
you're getting into different, you know, we're
expanding what we do and how we do it. And that
requires more manpower. And I just feel like,
honestly, 2001 to 2005, just a blur in my mind
looking back. And maybe that's why I didn't think
about 9 -11 much, or that's why I didn't process
it much. It's really crazy thinking back, looking
back, how little the agents that I worked with
in the New York field office, how little we talked
about it with each other. I think that would
have been healthy. there's a lot of people I
would find out years later really struggled.
I was spared a lot of that, but a lot of people
that I worked with and I cared about and agents
that answered the call and did a good job were
really, really damaged. And we didn't talk about
it. And so if I hadn't, back to that time machine,
if I had that time machine, I would do some things
differently. I would be intentional and I would
bring up hard conversations and private moments.
and try to be a part of healing. But me, myself,
I didn't talk about it for 10 years. It wasn't
until the 10th anniversary that I felt compelled
and encouraged by people around me that I trusted
and loved and started to share my story. I started
to share my story because I wanted to bring some
good. From a faith perspective, I wanted to bring
some good out of this awful event in my life.
bigger judgments on the entire issue. I just
wanted to show people what's happened in my life
as a result and what God did with me as a result
of it. And I wanted to bring good to people.
Here's the ironic part. And which happened, which
was great. But what happened first and foremost
was the more I talked about it, a tremendous
healing started to happen. you know those those
kinds of things in darkness just they don't they
don't go away and they don't get better they
only get worse and i had no idea the weight that
it was that it was that i was carrying and i
had no idea or appreciation for how it changed
me and when i started to share the experience
and talk about it i started down a real genuine
path of significant healing and um i can't i
mean i thank god that that I did that because
had I kept going, maybe, I don't know, I think
I'd be in a much darker place right now. And
so that's why I try to, today, it's what I encourage
when I'm speaking in front of corporations and
companies and so forth about all these things
and other faith -based groups that I speak to.
um man i'm just i'm just elevating i'm illuminating
this awful thing but i'm showing hey there's
some good that can come from this and here's
what i learned here's what i learned the hard
way and you don't need to make the same mistakes
you know what i mean absolutely what about physically
i mean you hear a lot of uh people you know with
all kinds of horrendous things that were at ground
zero did you have any kind of long -term effects
from the physical side I did it. None to date.
You know, I worked the pile, they called it.
I worked that for a week trying to salvage and
find equipment and, you know, survivors and so
forth. I did that for a week. And then I worked
out at the landfill out on Staten Island where
they were dumping all the stuff. I worked there
for a week. So I was surrounded. There were some
agents that worked weeks and weeks out there
on both of those sites. I have not had any issues.
I think that's pretty remarkable. Every year,
the Secret Service, we have to have a physical
every year anyways. And every year when I did
my physical, they would see my medical history
and they would do additional chest x -rays and
look at a lot of things because I inhaled a lot
of stuff. And so I was given a little extra scrutiny
and so were all of the survivors. But nothing
ever popped for me. Very grateful. Excellent.
Well, I want to hit one more question, then we'll
go to transition book and some closing questions.
When you look at the, and I feel like it's related
to exactly what we talked about, these extremist
voices in this division of the country, but we
had seemingly quite a long time where there really
weren't any assassination attempts on presidents,
on political figures. And then recently, clearly
there's been an uptick, whether it was an actual
assassination, an assassination attempt. What,
through your eyes, rather than saying who did
it and was there a conspiracy theory, let's just
go why this is happening in the first place.
So what, through your eyes, do you think is contributing
to seemingly more violence than we did see towards
political figures the last couple of decades
or so? I think our culture, our society as a
whole is feeding on fear. And I don't claim to
have the source of that, the headwaters of that
fear. But I think we're just feeding on fear.
And there's a lot of politics. There's a whole
political game on both sides now, you know, frenzying
up fear. And whether people think they're going
to lose something forever or... Or this is the
end of the world as we know it, or this is the
end of the Republic as we know it, or, I mean,
just, we're in such extremes. Hard times are
hard times. Hard times have been around since
the very beginning, right? We're just hyper -focused,
and we think that things have never been this
bad. I mean, back to the Bible that I read, and
I believe you read that, man, there's some hard,
dark times, okay? So people, they're feeding
on fear, and they don't really have hope. Don't
have a hope in something greater, something grounding,
something that can overcome their fear. And I
think it's on both sides of the spectrum. And
it's really easy for you and I to sit here and
like two 80 -year -old men and say, this world's
gone to hell. There's no chance. But I refuse
to give up. I'm an optimist. I'm going to keep
engaging. I'm going to keep entering in. And
I'm going to keep doing that, especially for
the sake of my sons, because they're going to
live in this world much longer than I am, more
than likely. And they're going to have to navigate
it. But I think there's just so much fear and
so little hope. And whatever I can do to fan
the flames of hope and a call to something greater,
I'm going to do it as best I can. Because I think
there is, in my personal belief, there's something
greater. The love of God is greater than the
fear that we're all feeding on. And I want to
do what I can to illuminate that and try to.
Try to focus on hope and not fear. I mean, I
couldn't agree more. And this goes back to our
conversation at the beginning. If you woke up
and you can see, that's amazing. If you live
in a place and you walk outside and your house
is still there and there's trees and there's
all these beautiful creatures of nature, that's
amazing. What Fox or CNN tells you is not actually
happening to you. Walk outside your front door.
And if you do live in one of these neighborhoods,
and it's up to the rest of us to help, you know,
bring those people up too. But I just feel like
the enemy of, you know, the lack of hope is gratitude.
You know, we have it so, so good, but we're told
that we don't. And we're told that all these
groups of people are going to turn us to a different
religion or they're all going to come from another
country and invade us. And I don't see it. I
do not see it with my own eyes. I see beautiful
people of all cultures, you know, all backgrounds
in my community. that our kids go to school together
and they do jujitsu together and ride horses
together. And I mean, this is just, this is what
I'm seeing. And I wish that we could just turn
off the, you know, the talking heads and get
everyone will just walk outside, go into your
community, you know, and if there are some issues,
then what can we do to change it? And they want
to change the world, start a home. And then once
you've got that sorted out, step outside your
front door and be a mentor in your community.
So I think there is, there is hope. yeah there
is hope and i would say put down the screen and
walk outside and get into your community and
talk to your neighbors and because the algorithm
is just uh i spent 25 years completely 100 off
of social media because i had to for in my opinion
for operational reasons i just didn't want to
put myself out there and now i'm doing this new
career and i'm promoting a book and i'm i'm doing
speaking engagements and so i kind of have to
be so in the last four or five months I've been
engaged in social media and I'm just, I'm just,
I'm blown away by the algorithms and, and what,
what you show a little bit of interest in something.
And this just starts feeding you, baby, feeding
you, feeding you more of what you want to see.
And, and you become just, that becomes your world.
And you become to see that, oh, this is the entire
world. And I'm, I'm staying off. all things political
on my social media, because I don't need that
feed. I don't need the algorithm kicking in on
that. So the stuff that is feeding me is not
necessarily bad things, but I can see where,
man, that world, your world, when you're focused
on the screens and what the algorithms get algorithms
giving you, your world gets really small, really
fast. And to your point, there's a much bigger
road out there with, with mostly good people,
citizens who, who want many of the same things.
Absolutely. Well, let's get to your transition
then. After this long career, what made you pull
the trigger as far as transitioning out? And
then what made you then write a book? Yeah, I
just... my time was my time wasn't up i could
have i could have stayed about six more years
before mandatory retirement but i just i just
knew that i was being i wasn't running from the
secret service because it was 25 year career
that i was i was pleased with it was mostly a
good career and mostly good experiences but i
wasn't running from that i was running towards
something i was being called and being led to
to do something uh different and i was writing
this book for 10 years in my head, right? And
it was a family joke. I'd be like, oh, son, that's
a good one. I'm going to put that in the book.
And everyone would laugh. And they didn't know
I was serious. And so, yeah, I started, my wife
laughed. She says, it takes you an hour to write
an email. How are you going to write a book?
But I started doing it. I piddled with it for
about a year. This is while I was an agent in
my free time. And I felt called, I felt led to
do one more campaign, the 2024 campaign. I said,
I'm going to stick around. I'm going to do, I'm
going to serve for one more campaign. And as
you know, it was a completely normal campaign,
nothing, no issues. And didn't know what I was
signing up for. But so I did that. And what happened
was I was on the road so much. Every flight I
was on, every night I was in a hotel room by
myself. I just opened up that laptop and started
writing, started going, started really getting
after it. And I wrote. probably a third of that
book at 30 ,000 feet. And the other two thirds,
probably in a lonely hotel room on some campaign
trail. But I said, I'm going to make, if I'm
going to stick around, I'm going to do the job
and do the job well, but I'm going to make the
free time, the downtime count while I was away
from my family. And that's what I did. And so,
yeah, I retired in July of 2025. And I've had
no regrets. I'm running headlong into something
else and doing my speaking engagements, my corporate
speaking, my faith -based speaking while getting
the message of the book out there. And I just,
there's so many lost people. And the point of
the book was this, and you've read it so you
understand. There's so many, especially young
men. It's written in a tone and language to men,
although women seem to love it as well. But it's
written in that language to men that are searching
for purpose. They're searching for real mission,
for real meaning in life. and i there's just
a massive void there when there's a void you
can fill it with with toxic stuff with with with
negative stuff uh i i just want to use this book
and use this greater message to point people
to uh to to fulfill their mission and their meaning
that's given to them by their creator uh so that
they can start bringing um you know bringing
good into the world and bringing light into darkness
absolutely that's what i really enjoyed about
it you've obviously got the story side, but then
you're diving into your faith and all kinds of
wisdom from all over the place. And it is. There
are lessons, as we talked about, in history,
but the question is, well, what can we learn
from them? What can we do? And I think purpose
is a huge thing. If you think that you're powerless
because, again, the algorithm has told you that
this is going to happen and this group of people
are at fault, then, like you said, you're then
a civilian. But you want to be a citizen and
you don't have to put on a uniform or like I
did or a suit like you did. Everyone can serve
in a different way. I mean, raising a kind, compassionate
child, for example, is the most powerful gift
we can give to the world. So I think it's a great
way of taking these experiences of horror that
you live, certainly on those few days. But then,
you know, giving the reader takeaways. Yeah,
but what can we do? What can we learn from it?
How can we grow? Right. All right. 100%. That's
now my life mission. I'm a very mission focused.
Many people in the first responder veteran community
are, right? And that's my new mission. I was
focused on the Secret Service mission for many
years. I've always been focused on my mission
as a believer, as a husband, as a father. But
now I have this new mission in front of me and
I'm just going to, I'm not always doing it well
and I'm not batting a thousand, but I'm going
to get after it. Fantastic. Well, the book is
called Bury Me in a Dirty Suit. For people listening,
where are the best places to find the book or
find more about you online? Yeah, you can find
the book anywhere you buy books online. Amazon
.com, obviously, is usually everyone's stop.
You can find it there. My website, I have two
different websites, DarrenKinder .com. That's
D -A -R -I -N. Kinder .com because I spelled
my name correctly. And there's not many people
named Darren spell it that way. And then on the
faith -based side, my faith -based website is
fierce -faith .com. So there's a hyphen in there,
fierce -faith .com. I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn.
And like I just said, getting my feet wet in
those waters. Brilliant. Well, just want to throw
a few closing questions at you. The first one,
we talked about your book. Are there any other
books written by other people that you'd love
to recommend? It can be related to our discussion
today or completely unrelated. I mean, I'm a
history nerd, so Undaunted Courage, the William
and Clark Expedition by Stephen Ambrose. I mean,
wow, just so powerful. I'm reading Blood and
Thunder right now. by Hampton Sides. That's Kit
Carson and the Conquest of the American West
and how complex that was. And then, gosh, the
one that is really escaping me right now, Endurance.
Have you ever read Endurance? About the failed
expedition? Yeah. Ernest Shackleton's expedition
into the South Pole. Man, it's called endurance.
It is. You want to learn lessons on leadership.
You want to learn lessons on resilience, on grit,
on teamwork, and just be gobsmacked by what these
men were able to do and endure. Man, I highly
recommend it. I think that's one of the most
recommended books on the show, actually. So I
can't remember if I already bought it and it's
sitting here. I don't think I have, but it's
definitely on my list to read. So I will read
it. All right. What about, thank you. What about
film television documentaries? Any of those that
you love? Oh goodness. I have a list of old school
movies that I go through on my phone. I go through
with my boys when it's finally age appropriate.
Right. So, I mean, we're watching Black Hawk
Down and we're watching Save Your Private Ryan.
And we're going to watch Band of Brothers this
coming during the holiday break. And my son's
home from college because I'm just trying to
illuminate courage and leadership to them. What
does that look like? I've read with each one
of my sons. When they were 14 or 15 years old,
we read Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden. I'm a
man of faith. It's not a Christian book at all.
And at the end of every chapter, we do a chapter
a week. At the end of every chapter, I'd ask
the same questions. Okay, where did you see courage
here in this chapter? Where did you see leadership
in this chapter? Where did you see mistakes and
what could have been done differently, right?
And just, man, it's really, really powerful stuff.
uh that's the kind of the the genre that we uh
that that we run in and uh sometimes sometimes
the kids like it sometimes they don't but i think
it's all it's all worth it absolutely i had several
men that were there on the show from mike duran
the pilot to um several of the guys that were
you know delta and on the uh oh my goodness what
were they range they were rangers i believe um
yeah rangers and delta and a few seals were sprinkled
in yeah yeah Amazing conversations. All right.
Well, the next question, speaking of amazing
people, is there a person that you recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military, and associated
professions of the world? First person I thought
of was my friend Clint Bruce. I don't know if
you've heard of Clint, but he's a former Navy
SEAL, captain of the Navy football team at the
Naval Academy. He did a short stint in the NFL
as well. As he likes to say, you've never heard
of him because the guy in front of him was a
guy named Ray Lewis, Hall of Fame linebacker
for the Ravens named Ray Lewis. So he never saw
the field. But he's a great man. He's a powerful
man. He's a powerful speaker. Lessons on what
really matters, family, lessons on resilience
and grit. And he's an innovator. He's an entrepreneur
now. He's just one of those guys that, and he's
a humble guy that doesn't mind what he calls
teaching from his scars. He loves to teach from
his failures. And I've learned a lot from him.
He'd be great. Fantastic. All right. Well, the
last question, what do you do to decompress?
I just did it a couple of weeks ago. I go to
Colorado. I go to the mountains. And I completely
unplug. And we have a place in Colorado that
we like to get away to. And there is no Wi -Fi.
There's no internet. There is no cell signal.
It is awesome. On a daily basis, I'm hitting
the gym, I'm swimming, I'm running. I have to
do that and meditate and pray and things of that
nature and kind of read the scriptures. Those
are my daily things. But every now and then,
I just got to get away. And I get itchy. I get
itchy when I haven't gone in a while. And yeah,
I got to get, for me, it's the mountains. My
wife, it's the beach. But for me, it's the mountains.
Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so much.
It's been such an amazing conversation, kind
of that contrast between the operational side
and being boots on the ground, 9 -11 and some
of the areas that we've talked about, but coupled
with so many human takeaways. I mean, it really
has been a phenomenal conversation. So I want
to thank you so much for being so generous with
your time today and coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast. Well, I loved it. I love what
you're doing. It's not easy, the line that you're
walking. You know, you're trying to bring people
together as opposed to being a grenade thrower
on one side or the other, right? I would encourage
you to keep going, to press on, to press into
it. The content that you're, this podcast and
the other social posts and stuff that you're
doing, it matters. And I'm a big fan and I just
want to encourage you to keep going.