WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by StationWise, the

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first staffing software to be truly firefighter

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proof. Now you may be wondering why I have software

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as a sponsor when I focus usually on physical

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and mental health of the first responders, and

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I will tell you exactly why. For the first time,

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this is a staffing platform that also is able

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to integrate wellness information through core

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load tracking, exposures, and wearables integration.

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Now, of course, StationWise focuses on staffing

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and allows you to manage staffing, choose vacation

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picks, put in rules for leave and trades, and

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even deploying strike teams. But through the

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latest programming in AI automation, they have

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streamlined this process to free up battalion

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chiefs so they can focus on what they're supposed

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to be doing on the operational side and the fire

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ground. Now, StationWise is also able to monitor

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not only how many calls we've responded to in

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the shift, but the duration of the call, therefore

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the rest and recovery in between, thus monitoring

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the sleep deprivation that degrades our health

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and performance. It's accessible not only through

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the computer, but also on Apple and Android devices,

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meaning that you can access it not only within

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the station itself, but outside as well. Now,

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one of the most powerful features of StationWise,

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in my opinion, is the ability to run reports.

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Therefore, for example, be able to see just how

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much money is being used on overtime that could

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actually be front -loaded for proactive staffing,

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as well as setting alarms knowing when you are

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hitting overtime parameters. And another important

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feature is the integration of other programs

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and software for payroll, training, reports,

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etc. Now, StationWise is trusted by numerous

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agencies in California, Texas, and Idaho. And

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if you want to hear the full story from the founder,

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who he himself is a son of a firefighter, listen

00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:08.680
to episode 1163 with Marcus Edwards. And if you

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want to book a demo or learn more, go to stationwise

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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Geering and this

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week I have one of the most important conversations

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I would argue I've had on the show. Rick Mountcastle

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is a former U .S. attorney and was also the man

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who led the team to prosecute Purdue Pharma after

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their predatory actions with OxyContin that led

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to today's opioid crisis. So in this conversation,

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we discuss a host of topics. from his own journey

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into the world of law, prosecuting mobsters,

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the deliberate falsification of documents and

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information by Purdue that created the OxyContin

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crisis, government corruption through the FDA,

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the dark side of nursing homes, his documentary

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No Country for Old People, and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,200 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share. these incredible men

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and women's stories, so I can get them to every

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single person on planet Earth who needs to hear

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them. So that being said, I introduce to you

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Rick Mountcastle. Enjoy. Well, Rick, I want to

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start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you

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to our mutual friend, Dr. Todd Otten, for making

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this connection. And secondly, I want to welcome

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you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Yeah, thank you, James. It's a pleasure to be

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here. And yes, kudos to Todd for hooking us up.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you this

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morning? I'm in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina,

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right outside of Charleston. I've been we've

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been here a little over three years, kind of

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the place that we retired to. So and yeah, it's

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kind of retired, but then I unretired in April.

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So congratulations. Thanks. Well, I would love

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to start the very beginning of your timeline.

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Obviously, you're known for two very specific

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areas at the moment when it comes to what's being

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portrayed on the screen. I'd love to just kind

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of learn the backstory as well. So tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Wow. Okay. So I was born in Tokyo,

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Japan. My father was in the Air Force. My mother

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was a Japanese national. And so that's sort of

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the beginning. And then, of course. As an Air

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Force brat, we moved all over the place. I got

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two younger sisters, and we lived all over the

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United States and in Europe. After my father

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left the Air Force, he went to work for the Army

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as a civilian, and we continued to move every

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two or three or four years, sometimes even more

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often. My teenage years were spent in Italy and

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Germany at Army Department of Defense schools.

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And then upon graduation, I came back to the

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States, went to Marquette University undergrad

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in George Washington University Law. Had an ROTC

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scholarship for my undergrad. So I ended up going

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in the Army for four years after law school as

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a JAG. And, you know, then I guess after that,

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after the four years, I did a couple of years

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at a. An agency, Department of Transportation,

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sub -agency, and then went to the Department

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of Justice in 1986. So that's kind of a quick

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start to the first 30 years or so. I lived in

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Osaka, Japan for 15 months as a stuntman. So

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totally different path than you took. One of

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the things, I forget, I think it's Hemingway.

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talks about the enemy of prejudice is traveling,

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or I'm paraphrasing. But it's when you have traveled

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around the world and lived in different places,

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you start to see some of the differences in cultures

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and some of the solutions to some of the problems

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that different areas have. When you reflect back

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now to your early years all over the globe, what

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were some of the things that were maybe done

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better than other areas? And then maybe some

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of the ones that were more challenging as you

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were kind of... Jumping around from country to

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country. Yeah, done better. That's a hard one

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because a lot of my time was spent in like enclaves

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of, you know, on bases and stuff. So there was

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that kind of insulation. But I think maybe one

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of the most memorable experiences is that we

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were in Guatemala for four months and seeing

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and this would have been in the late 60s. I don't

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know that. Things have changed a great deal since

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then. But seeing the extreme poverty, that's

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kind of left an impression on me. Just, you know,

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at the time, maybe it's changed now. We were

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in Guatemala City, the capital. There was a couple

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of paved streets, but almost all of the streets

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were unpaved. And just people just... you know,

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in extreme poverty, just trying to get by kind

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of left an imprint in terms of what we have in

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the United States and how little we appreciate

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what we have. So and, you know, and then kind

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of put a perspective on, well, why do we need

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to have as much as we do? And, you know, the

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chasing after. uh things of of money and things

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of um you know uh tangible possessions that kind

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of thing that that kind of left an imprint we

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were only there for four months and i was in

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like seventh or eighth grade so that's one experience

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um you know uh other again i haven't i haven't

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been out of the country really to speak of uh

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for a long time now but uh Just traveling around

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and meeting people, it's all these differences

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that are portrayed in the media don't really

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exist in real life. I mean, you go out and you

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talk to people and they're people, no matter,

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you know, and then the media, you know, you go

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to the media and social media, especially, and

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you see people trying to create divisions and

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exploiting divisions. So, you know, people are

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people. I've said that, I mean, internationally

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and then just domestically as well. You know,

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we were told that there are all these groups

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that don't like each other and, you know, they're

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dangerous to each other. And then you walk out

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your front door and you don't see race wars or,

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you know, extremism, you know, related violence

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or whatever it is. And, of course, they occur.

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I mean, there's horrible things that occur all

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over the planet. But I would argue, especially

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in this country, they're the absolute extremes.

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They're the minority groups that are doing these

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kind of things and even having these conversations.

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If you were king for a day, I would normally

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ask this later in the conversation, but seeing

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as we're going to talk about chasing money at

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the expense of human lives and suffering, if

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you were king for a day, what do we do to...

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get back to that community that you know we as

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human beings have relied on for millennia before

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yeah it's wow that's a yeah if i were king for

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a day hadn't thought about that one because the

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i uh the the possibility never never really seemed

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within grasp but you know i i think a lot of

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it is um it's just like having conversations

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educating people Talking to people, getting points

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of view, talking about different ways to do things.

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It seems like we are less communicative now,

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even though we have more tools of communication

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than we were, you know, 20 or 30 years ago. And

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so I think we need to get back to actually. face

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to face, one on one communication and keeping

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an open mind and having understanding and understanding

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that in the long run, if we prioritize people

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and not profit and things in the long run, it's

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going to be better. You know, we're all about

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short term. What can I get today, tomorrow, the

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next couple of hours? And we don't take the long

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view. And I think it's important. People should

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try to think about, hey, take the long, look

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at the long run. What's going to be best, you

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know, a year, two years, five years from now?

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But we, you know, human beings don't do that.

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So I don't, how to, I would, I would try to encourage

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people to take the long, the long view and not

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look at what, you know, what, what the next few

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hours are going to bring so much. Absolutely.

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We'll just kind of revisit in earlier life for

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a moment. What were you playing as far as sports

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and exercise? You know, I tried, I wanted, I

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was a wannabe athlete, but I didn't have the

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skills. So I, in school, I, you know, played

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football, tried my hand at basketball. You know,

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eventually when I was getting ready to go into

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the military, I knew I knew I needed to do certain

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things to prepare myself physically. So I started

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running. And so I've kind of kept that up over

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the years, although now running would be what

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would be an exaggeration of what I actually do.

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It's it's probably more of a fast walk, maybe

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not even a fast walk. But I try to get out and

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and run three or four times. a week and being

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near charleston near the beach i like running

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on the beach that's kind of my my vibe now now

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what about career aspirations you mentioned about

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obviously following the law journey once you

00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:49.129
got into kind of the rotc route were you always

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dreaming of that when you were younger or was

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there something else you had in your mind you

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know uh i'm not Not really. And I wanted to do

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things. I had, you know, one of the things that

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I, you know, being a professional football player,

00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:09.000
that kind of stuff that were not really realistic.

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But when I was in college and I was looking at,

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OK, I've got I owe the army four years. What

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am I going to do? And then I just thought about,

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you know, I decided I wanted to go to law school

00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.669
because I had an interest in justice. And seeing

00:14:27.669 --> 00:14:32.149
injustice in the world kind of got, you know,

00:14:32.169 --> 00:14:34.490
kind of got my juices flowing and saying that

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that's something I need to try to fix. And so

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I so I decided to go to law school for that reason.

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Number one, number two, to put off going in the

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army for for three years. And then, you know.

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And when I finished law school, there were two

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things I decided I would never do. I would never

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do criminal law and I would never do tax law.

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And so in 1986, when I went to the Department

00:15:02.769 --> 00:15:07.289
of Justice, I was hired to go to the criminal

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tax division, of course. That was a lesson in

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never say never. was pretty good at it, I guess.

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What was it that made you retain that passion

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for justice? And again, I'm sweeping, I'm brushing

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with a very broad stroke at the moment, but we

00:15:32.110 --> 00:15:35.509
have a large subsection of the legal community

00:15:35.509 --> 00:15:39.929
in the kind of lawsuit side that in some areas

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are very predatory. And again, in our profession,

00:15:41.830 --> 00:15:43.490
we saw that, you know, the ambulance chasers.

00:15:44.110 --> 00:15:46.389
Um, and then we've got people that have had,

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you know, multiple people on the show that have

00:15:47.850 --> 00:15:49.850
fought tooth and nail and, you know, put everything

00:15:49.850 --> 00:15:53.470
on the line to, to do what's right. And obviously

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that was something that's burning still to this

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day in your heart. What, where did that come

00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:00.690
from? And how did you hang on to that? When maybe

00:16:00.690 --> 00:16:03.789
there was the law that's going on, on some of

00:16:03.789 --> 00:16:06.029
these more financially lucrative paths instead.

00:16:06.649 --> 00:16:09.230
Yeah, you know, I don't I'm not exactly sure

00:16:09.230 --> 00:16:12.389
where that came from. It just is is there and

00:16:12.389 --> 00:16:17.389
it continues to be there for my first. Well,

00:16:17.549 --> 00:16:23.669
I my entire career up to this point was in government

00:16:23.669 --> 00:16:28.769
service. You know, I went from the Army to Federal

00:16:28.769 --> 00:16:30.970
Railroad Administration for a couple of years

00:16:30.970 --> 00:16:35.970
to the Department of Justice for 33 years. And

00:16:35.970 --> 00:16:37.769
once I retired from the Department of Justice,

00:16:37.850 --> 00:16:40.070
I went to the Virginia Attorney General's office.

00:16:40.690 --> 00:16:44.490
And so my experience with private practice has

00:16:44.490 --> 00:16:48.929
just been the last six months. And so I was always

00:16:48.929 --> 00:16:53.570
I always felt I guess I like being, you know,

00:16:53.570 --> 00:16:58.330
I like detective stories. I like stories about

00:16:58.330 --> 00:17:01.970
good versus evil and good triumphing, triumphing.

00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:06.170
And I always wanted to be. One of the on the

00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:08.650
good side, one of the good guys, one of the white

00:17:08.650 --> 00:17:11.750
hats. So I guess that just was somehow there.

00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:17.029
And so I kind of prided myself. Hey, I've never

00:17:17.029 --> 00:17:19.289
been in private practice. I've done government

00:17:19.289 --> 00:17:22.049
service my entire, you know, almost four year

00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:27.509
career. And the feeling like I was doing something

00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:31.250
to benefit the public, this is benefit society

00:17:31.250 --> 00:17:38.359
just kind of gave me motivation. You know, in

00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.599
criminal prosecutions, to me, it was about the

00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:44.339
victims and about the safety of the community

00:17:44.339 --> 00:17:49.920
and about maintaining a system of justice that

00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.940
is not perfect, but it's probably the best we

00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:59.059
can do given the human flaws that we bring to

00:17:59.059 --> 00:18:06.220
systems. Giving people confidence that there

00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:09.640
is at least some place where there's a little

00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:14.319
bit more equality and that people that have means

00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.720
and financial resources and power don't necessarily

00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:24.099
rule the day all the time. Although that's kind

00:18:24.099 --> 00:18:26.980
of changed now. But that was sort of being part

00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:29.259
of it. That's kind of a system that tried to

00:18:29.259 --> 00:18:34.220
level the playing field. I took a lot of pride

00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:38.380
in. You say that's changed now. What has changed?

00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.099
You know, to me, I was always proud of being

00:18:43.099 --> 00:18:47.759
working for the Department of Justice, the United

00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.619
States Department of Justice, both at the main

00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:54.279
office, the main justice in Washington and then

00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:57.599
later in the U .S. Attorney's Office. And always

00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.480
feeling that I was there to do justice, not necessarily

00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.119
to win cases. And I was there to do justice in

00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.900
an even handed manner. And I see that the Department

00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:10.519
of Justice is now being used to settle personal

00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:15.960
scores for personal gain. You know, I think it's

00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:21.000
being actually abused and it's like in less than

00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.559
a year, it's it's become very sad to me what

00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.319
the Department of Justice has become. And a lot

00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:33.319
of people. Very good lawyers, career lawyers

00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.279
who looked at making that a career because of

00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.660
the ideals that the department used to promote

00:19:40.660 --> 00:19:44.700
have left. And so what you have now is a skeleton

00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:48.940
that is run by people who have no honor and who

00:19:48.940 --> 00:19:51.839
have no morals and who have no ethics, who are

00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:56.339
there just for personal gain and to and political

00:19:56.339 --> 00:20:01.019
gain. And then, yeah, you know. I'll say it.

00:20:02.579 --> 00:20:07.200
That's what it is now. It's a travesty. I mean,

00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:09.119
this is what we need to be talking about. I've

00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:13.019
been very open about the last few presidents

00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:15.640
that we've had. I've always said same person,

00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:17.380
different color tie. And obviously there are

00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:20.680
extremes on both sides. But the hijacking of

00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.900
the American people is so blatantly obvious.

00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.779
When you get people to be so entrenched in, well,

00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:31.720
this is my party or this is my president and

00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.099
they forget that the people come first. And again,

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:35.599
you know, I think I would argue we both come

00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.700
from professions that understand that, you know,

00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.119
that we leave our families to go and, you know,

00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.819
better the country as a whole. It just it makes

00:20:43.819 --> 00:20:46.279
me so sad. It really, really does. And, you know,

00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.359
when you're so hoodwinked and I think, you know,

00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.319
divided because you're so overworked, stressed,

00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.240
you know. fearful of these bad guys that we're

00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.940
told are out there it's so much easier to divide

00:20:58.940 --> 00:21:01.799
a country and we saw that sadly in covid and

00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:04.500
if i wish there would be some kind of national

00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:07.579
awakening where everyone just realized okay is

00:21:07.579 --> 00:21:10.980
this a kind or be unkind it's it's that simple

00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.400
are these people doing what's best for the country

00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.359
or best for themselves and i think you'd be able

00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.440
to filter out the chaff immediately and get good

00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.859
people back in these positions again right no

00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:27.160
i agree yes We're in a sad state of affairs right

00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:31.420
now. And so all we can do is try to individually

00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:37.420
work to, you know, get back to where we should

00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:40.619
be. Now, just I want to move on, but just quickly,

00:21:40.700 --> 00:21:44.440
how everyone listening in the ability in their

00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.940
own hands, how do we start going back? Regardless

00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:50.500
of whichever political system is in power at

00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:53.200
that moment, how do we start regaining this country

00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:55.319
again and putting the right people in these positions?

00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.660
Yeah, I honestly don't know. From my point of

00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:07.119
view, it's partially why I went back into the

00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:14.039
game in April. A door -open opportunity. So I'm

00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:17.450
now with a whistleblower. a small whistleblower

00:22:17.450 --> 00:22:22.369
firm based in D .C. And so, you know, it was

00:22:22.369 --> 00:22:25.910
one it's one of those you do what you what you

00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:30.369
can do in terms of trying to change things for

00:22:30.369 --> 00:22:35.309
the better. And so that that kind of door opened

00:22:35.309 --> 00:22:40.430
and kind of fit my talent, I think, to to represent

00:22:40.430 --> 00:22:45.220
whistleblowers. And so. you know, and, and to

00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:49.420
continue to fight against injustice. So, so we

00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:51.940
can only do it. Well, we can, we have the ability

00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:56.019
and the talent to do, but we should do something.

00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.259
Okay. Yeah. Whatever it is you you're able to

00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:02.740
do, whether it's, you know, broadcast having

00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:08.660
a podcast or, you know, going out and volunteering.

00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:16.069
at a shelter or Meals on Wheels, helping people,

00:23:16.210 --> 00:23:21.349
doing good or bringing light against darkness,

00:23:21.630 --> 00:23:23.750
however that looks. I mean, we're not going to

00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:25.450
go out there and all of a sudden you're going

00:23:25.450 --> 00:23:27.049
to snap your fingers and things are going to

00:23:27.049 --> 00:23:30.630
change. What you can do, each of us has the talent

00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:34.190
and the ability to do something. It may seem

00:23:34.190 --> 00:23:37.289
small, but even a small thing has a ripple effect

00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:43.470
that can... can affect in a positive way a larger

00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:46.470
number of people. So I would say just even volunteering

00:23:46.470 --> 00:23:50.710
to get out into the community and help people

00:23:50.710 --> 00:23:52.450
in need because there are a lot of people in

00:23:52.450 --> 00:23:57.950
need. And I can see in the next couple of years

00:23:57.950 --> 00:24:00.450
even more people being in need the way the economy

00:24:00.450 --> 00:24:03.289
is going, the way the cost of living is going,

00:24:03.609 --> 00:24:07.049
the way health insurance is being taken away

00:24:07.049 --> 00:24:13.250
from people. I think that being light in darkness,

00:24:13.490 --> 00:24:18.190
you know, and I know that's a kind of a nebulous

00:24:18.190 --> 00:24:21.529
concept, but being light in darkness by doing

00:24:21.529 --> 00:24:24.490
things to help people, I think, individually

00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:29.029
is one way of fighting back. I couldn't agree

00:24:29.029 --> 00:24:31.390
more. They say you want to change the world,

00:24:31.410 --> 00:24:34.640
start at home. And even like you said, what you're

00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:36.960
doing, I mean, you're having a much bigger impact

00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:38.619
than I am. But what we are collectively doing,

00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:41.980
each of us is a drop of water. But if all of

00:24:41.980 --> 00:24:43.980
you stand side by side, now you're a waterfall.

00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:48.940
You're a force of nature. So I agree 100%. Well,

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.799
before we get to when Purdue Pharma came on your

00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:54.640
radar. Prior to that, I know in Dopesick, they

00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.119
made reference that you were taking down mobsters.

00:24:58.140 --> 00:25:00.240
So what were some of the kind of career cases

00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:04.000
that you had prior to OxyContin? Yeah, so that

00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:09.660
case. So in the tax division, doing criminal

00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:12.339
work from the tax division at DOJ, one of the

00:25:12.339 --> 00:25:17.779
initiatives that we had in the early 90s. was

00:25:17.779 --> 00:25:22.140
to go after excise tax fraud, which was a thing

00:25:22.140 --> 00:25:25.900
that organized crime was using to make a lot

00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:31.240
of money with relatively low risk. And so there

00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.500
was an initiative. We focused on the Long Island,

00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.980
New York, so Eastern District of New York. And

00:25:38.980 --> 00:25:40.940
so there was a group of us that went up there

00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:46.660
to work on excise tax cases that involved organized

00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:49.819
crime in the background. So one of those cases

00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:55.200
I had was a case that involved the head of the

00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:59.319
Russian mob at the time, a gentleman named Murat

00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:06.420
Balagula. And so we, myself and another attorney,

00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:11.279
a co -counsel, prosecuted that case. in a two

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:13.460
-week trial, and we got a conviction of him and

00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:17.119
a couple of his associates. So that was the case

00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:21.200
that was alluded to as the mob, you know, prosecuting

00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:25.940
mobsters and dope sick. You know, and there were

00:26:25.940 --> 00:26:29.420
other, you know, the cases I did were tax fraud

00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:33.160
cases, so they were different from, they involved

00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:38.099
people of means. Kind of just cheating on their

00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:39.940
taxes. I think there was another case involving

00:26:39.940 --> 00:26:44.059
an attorney that I did right at the time I was

00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:47.039
moving from Maine Justice to the U .S. Attorney's

00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:50.940
Office in Virginia. An attorney in southwestern

00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:56.660
Virginia who was setting up companies for a coal

00:26:56.660 --> 00:26:59.460
mine operation. A lot of business corruption.

00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:01.720
That's where I learned about business corruption.

00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:09.320
It kind of crosses all different. occupations,

00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:12.599
including health care at the end of the day.

00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:16.640
It's corruption that involves most of the time

00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:19.900
stealing money from the government, right? And

00:27:19.900 --> 00:27:27.000
so tax monies or health care monies. So the case,

00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:31.599
you know, we prosecuted. Evolving a lawyer who

00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:34.460
is setting up shell corporations for a coal mine

00:27:34.460 --> 00:27:39.279
operator who would, again, you know, steal the

00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:44.039
tax money and employment taxes, especially in

00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:48.339
an employment tax case where an employer is stealing

00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:51.259
the employment taxes. They're really also hurting

00:27:51.259 --> 00:27:54.319
their employees because a portion of that money

00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:58.920
is supposed to go to the the employees in terms

00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:04.069
of their. Social Security taxes and Medicare

00:28:04.069 --> 00:28:08.890
taxes, those kinds of things. So those employees

00:28:08.890 --> 00:28:14.390
end up with a zero where the employer collects

00:28:14.390 --> 00:28:17.470
the money from them but does not submit it to

00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:20.049
the government in essence. And their records

00:28:20.049 --> 00:28:22.730
then get screwed up with the government in terms

00:28:22.730 --> 00:28:27.049
of their Social Security contributions and the

00:28:27.049 --> 00:28:30.089
like. So that was, you know, there was another

00:28:30.089 --> 00:28:33.309
case that we again had a probably I think it

00:28:33.309 --> 00:28:36.109
was a two week trial and convicted the attorney

00:28:36.109 --> 00:28:39.170
and and then the judge didn't want to sentence

00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:42.410
him. So we had an appeal. And so that case, you

00:28:42.410 --> 00:28:45.549
know, dragged on for a few years. So a couple

00:28:45.549 --> 00:28:48.049
of cases like that. And I did, you know, domestic

00:28:48.049 --> 00:28:52.809
violence, kidnapping cases and and felt illegal

00:28:52.809 --> 00:28:59.819
gun cases and some drug cases. And then getting

00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:05.119
into, oh, now we've got doctors who are overprescribing

00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:08.339
opioids. And that was kind of the entree into

00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:13.960
the world of pharma. So walk me through that

00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:17.400
kind of on -ramp to that then, through your perspective.

00:29:18.819 --> 00:29:21.960
Yeah, so I moved from Washington, D .C. down

00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:26.359
to a place called Abingdon, Virginia, which is...

00:29:27.450 --> 00:29:30.970
in the Appalachian Mountain region of Virginia,

00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:34.289
where the corner of Virginia, it's like a triangle,

00:29:34.430 --> 00:29:38.190
and that corner touches on FAP, where five states

00:29:38.190 --> 00:29:40.450
come together, Tennessee, North Carolina, West

00:29:40.450 --> 00:29:45.109
Virginia, and Kentucky. And so it's a very rural

00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:50.289
and economically depressed area. Coal mining

00:29:50.289 --> 00:29:54.779
is big down there, farming. But a lot of people,

00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.700
especially those who work in the coal mine industry

00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:00.599
and get injured, there's a lot of injuries, physical

00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:06.779
injuries, end up being on disability and being

00:30:06.779 --> 00:30:12.019
on Medicaid and needing pain relief. And so there's,

00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:15.579
unlike the cities where there was a problem with

00:30:15.579 --> 00:30:18.119
street drugs, down there the problem was prescription

00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:23.210
drugs because people could get. Pills, doctors

00:30:23.210 --> 00:30:27.829
were prescribing opioids. A lot of people had

00:30:27.829 --> 00:30:30.150
legitimate reasons for them, but a lot of people

00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:34.910
didn't. And so going down into that environment

00:30:34.910 --> 00:30:36.849
and seeing that that was an issue, a problem

00:30:36.849 --> 00:30:41.109
with the community, our office, our little office,

00:30:41.250 --> 00:30:44.009
three -person office in Abingdon started looking

00:30:44.009 --> 00:30:47.859
at You know, we're part of the community there.

00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:50.059
It's being in a small office. You're part of

00:30:50.059 --> 00:30:51.799
it. You're part of the people. You're you're

00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:54.480
not like in some ivory tower as a prosecutor

00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:56.799
waiting for people to bring stuff to you. You're

00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:58.700
out there in the community. And we saw that,

00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:04.480
hey, there's a problem with with pills on the

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.920
street. That's a problem. And we as as a federal

00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:13.740
prosecutor, we wanted to look at going to the

00:31:13.740 --> 00:31:16.099
root of the problem. not just taking you know

00:31:16.099 --> 00:31:18.420
going and prosecuting people on the street who

00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:22.259
are largely addicted to opioids and just trying

00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:25.220
to feed their addiction but go up to where the

00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:28.720
source is so we started looking at doctors and

00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.500
we had a big project in the late 90s where we

00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:37.440
we targeted a half a dozen or more doctors who

00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.880
were who based on the data were over prescribing

00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:52.569
opioids And we began prosecuting them into the

00:31:52.569 --> 00:31:57.369
late 90s to the early 2000s. And then we started

00:31:57.369 --> 00:32:02.089
hearing some things coming from the community.

00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:05.329
Number one, the local law enforcement said there's

00:32:05.329 --> 00:32:08.390
a huge spike in overdoses of this new drug called

00:32:08.390 --> 00:32:12.210
OxyContin. And that in addition to that, their

00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:15.549
communities were being ravaged by crime. Most

00:32:15.549 --> 00:32:21.470
of it related to people trying to get money to

00:32:21.470 --> 00:32:23.690
buy Oxycontin on the street, which was selling

00:32:23.690 --> 00:32:26.109
at a dollar per milligram. The pills were in

00:32:26.109 --> 00:32:34.029
20, 40, 80 and 160 milligram quantities. And

00:32:34.029 --> 00:32:36.650
then we also heard from some local pharmacists

00:32:36.650 --> 00:32:42.029
that. They were getting aggressively pursued

00:32:42.029 --> 00:32:47.750
by Purdue Pharma sales reps whenever they were

00:32:47.750 --> 00:32:50.230
hesitant to fill a prescription because in a

00:32:50.230 --> 00:32:54.210
small town, the pharmacist knows everybody. And

00:32:54.210 --> 00:32:58.789
they know who maybe doesn't really need the pills,

00:32:58.950 --> 00:33:02.430
who's abusing them, who's selling them. And so

00:33:02.430 --> 00:33:05.349
when they hesitated to fill some prescriptions

00:33:05.349 --> 00:33:07.529
they thought were questionable, a Purdue Pharma

00:33:07.529 --> 00:33:09.970
rep would come in and be very aggressive with

00:33:09.970 --> 00:33:13.829
them. And we got complaints about that. So one

00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:18.230
day, my co -counsel Randy Ransire and I were

00:33:18.230 --> 00:33:20.109
just sitting around the office talking about

00:33:20.109 --> 00:33:24.170
those things at the end of the day. And we decided

00:33:24.170 --> 00:33:26.849
maybe we need to open up an investigation on

00:33:26.849 --> 00:33:30.170
Purdue Pharma because of this information we

00:33:30.170 --> 00:33:34.410
were getting. and just see what's going on. Why

00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:39.329
are we being ravaged by OxyContin? And why are

00:33:39.329 --> 00:33:42.930
they pursuing pharmacists so aggressively? So

00:33:42.930 --> 00:33:47.190
that was around 2000, you know, late 2000, early

00:33:47.190 --> 00:33:50.190
2001, we decided we would open an investigation.

00:33:54.410 --> 00:33:57.309
Which was unusual because most investigations

00:33:57.309 --> 00:34:01.450
get opened up in the prosecutor's office because

00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:03.849
law enforcement has come in and said, hey, we

00:34:03.849 --> 00:34:07.250
have a case here. This was one that we generated

00:34:07.250 --> 00:34:12.389
from our side. Probably almost never happens

00:34:12.389 --> 00:34:16.349
from the prosecutor's side because of the information

00:34:16.349 --> 00:34:18.829
that we got from the community and the feeling

00:34:18.829 --> 00:34:22.389
that we needed to look into this just. because

00:34:22.389 --> 00:34:25.710
it's our home and our community, and things did

00:34:25.710 --> 00:34:31.170
not appear to be right. When I moved to America,

00:34:31.349 --> 00:34:34.090
I went to Fire Academy in Orlando, and then I

00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:36.010
moved down to the Miami area and was testing.

00:34:36.309 --> 00:34:41.889
And my now ex, my wife at the time, got a job

00:34:41.889 --> 00:34:47.360
in a doctor's office. At the same time, I remember

00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.719
one time I was sick and I don't normally go ever

00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:51.420
see a doctor, but it was one of those ones where

00:34:51.420 --> 00:34:53.380
I need antibiotics. This thing isn't going to

00:34:53.380 --> 00:34:56.340
go anywhere. And I remember sitting in a doctor's

00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:00.519
office for hours and watching these model like,

00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:03.420
you know, women usually with a little kind of

00:35:03.420 --> 00:35:05.639
roll on suitcase going into the doctor's office.

00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:07.699
And it never even occurred to me at the time.

00:35:07.780 --> 00:35:09.420
I'm just like, OK, well, this is annoying. These

00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:12.159
drug reps are getting ahead of us. But then my

00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:16.360
my son's mother. I said, this is so weird. We've

00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:18.400
got people flying from all over the country down

00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:20.900
to this doctor and he gives them a prescription

00:35:20.900 --> 00:35:23.019
and then and then they fly away. And this is

00:35:23.019 --> 00:35:26.340
Broward County, Florida. So I had a very, you

00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:29.280
know, a naive at the time, you know, view of

00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.719
exactly what we're about to talk about. So you

00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:34.820
mentioned the drug reps. Talk to me about the

00:35:34.820 --> 00:35:38.019
army and the kind of predatory practice that

00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:42.639
Purdue was deliberately creating to. prey upon

00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:46.440
these medical practitioners and skew their understanding

00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:52.699
of the drug? Yeah. So, you know, you've seen

00:35:52.699 --> 00:35:56.440
Dope Sick. So the thing about Dope Sick is that

00:35:56.440 --> 00:36:00.360
the underlying, of course, it's jazzed up for

00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:05.019
TV, right? The dialogue and kind of the sequence

00:36:05.019 --> 00:36:07.679
of events all kind of jazzed up for TV. But the

00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:16.929
underlying The storyline about how Purdue marketed

00:36:16.929 --> 00:36:21.510
the drug is very accurate in Dope Sick. When

00:36:21.510 --> 00:36:26.429
I was talking to the creator of Dope Sick, Danny

00:36:26.429 --> 00:36:29.050
Strong, he came and interviewed me. And I told

00:36:29.050 --> 00:36:30.889
him, the only reason I'm talking to you is because

00:36:30.889 --> 00:36:34.030
I want to make sure you get the facts right in

00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:39.400
terms of what our investigation found. So that

00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:45.320
storyline is very accurate in terms of what actually

00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:48.300
happened and what Purdue did. And what Purdue

00:36:48.300 --> 00:36:53.780
did was they used data, right? They looked and

00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:57.760
saw where most of the opioids were, the regular

00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:02.880
opioids, the smaller dose opioids, like the Percocets

00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.880
and those kinds of things. They saw where most

00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.610
of those were being prescribed. And of course,

00:37:08.650 --> 00:37:14.469
it was in locations that were generally like

00:37:14.469 --> 00:37:18.570
Appalachia in southwestern Virginia, eastern

00:37:18.570 --> 00:37:22.829
Kentucky and southern West Virginia, where you

00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:25.849
had people who worked in occupations that were

00:37:25.849 --> 00:37:28.510
physical in nature and there were injuries. And

00:37:28.510 --> 00:37:30.889
then they would go and once they were injured,

00:37:30.969 --> 00:37:34.559
they'd get pain pills. So they targeted places

00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.219
like that, and they targeted Maine, where the

00:37:37.219 --> 00:37:40.420
timber industry was. They targeted where the

00:37:40.420 --> 00:37:45.079
coal mining industry was. You know, Florida,

00:37:45.260 --> 00:37:49.340
I'm not sure exactly why they targeted Florida,

00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.159
but probably because of the older population

00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:55.440
and then, you know, the physical ailments that

00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.199
come with aging. But they took that data and

00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:03.239
they said, we're going to go in. Essentially,

00:38:03.380 --> 00:38:06.019
I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but they said, we're

00:38:06.019 --> 00:38:07.920
going to go into these places where there is

00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:12.619
a large opioid market and we're going to take

00:38:12.619 --> 00:38:16.539
our drug and we're going to say our drug is better

00:38:16.539 --> 00:38:19.320
than the other drugs that you are prescribing.

00:38:20.059 --> 00:38:23.039
Their market research found that one of the things

00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:27.519
that doctors were hesitant about was the potential

00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:30.599
for addiction. that would come from these larger

00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:37.139
quantities of the opioid, of oxycodone that were

00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:42.360
in their pills. And so they created this marketing

00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:48.760
program to some extent in collusion with the

00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:52.639
FDA, which we can talk about in a minute, where

00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:57.329
they went in and told the doctors. who had people,

00:38:57.449 --> 00:38:59.590
you know, the doctors are having to make decisions

00:38:59.590 --> 00:39:03.190
based on just looking at someone who says I'm

00:39:03.190 --> 00:39:05.530
in pain, which is very subjective and deciding,

00:39:05.789 --> 00:39:08.369
well, do I write a prescription or not? Are they

00:39:08.369 --> 00:39:09.510
going to get, am I going to get them addicted

00:39:09.510 --> 00:39:12.329
or not? Are they abusing it or selling it or

00:39:12.329 --> 00:39:15.409
not? There's a lot of unknowns for the doctors.

00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:17.690
So when Purdue comes in and tells the doctors,

00:39:17.849 --> 00:39:21.150
hey, we've got this new drug. It's in a delayed

00:39:21.150 --> 00:39:24.849
release delivery system. And therefore, that

00:39:24.849 --> 00:39:28.170
makes it less addictive than these other drugs

00:39:28.170 --> 00:39:31.030
that you're prescribing. And oh, by the way,

00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:33.610
because it's in this delivery system, it's also

00:39:33.610 --> 00:39:37.730
less prone to abuse. All of those things were

00:39:37.730 --> 00:39:41.860
blatant lies. The doctor is going to... be put

00:39:41.860 --> 00:39:45.000
in a position where, hey, I either prescribe

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.679
the same old stuff that has addiction and abuse

00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.960
potential, or I prescribe OxyContin, which, hey,

00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:57.480
I'm being told, in a credible fashion, is less

00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.059
addictive and less prone to abuse. In fact, some

00:40:01.059 --> 00:40:03.079
of them were told it can't be abused because

00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:06.420
of this delivery system. The doctor's put in

00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:08.460
a position where they almost have to prescribe

00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:12.190
OxyContin. And that's kind of what happened.

00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:17.969
What, you know, I can get into the FDA's role

00:40:17.969 --> 00:40:23.570
in this if you want me to. Let's do it. At the

00:40:23.570 --> 00:40:27.650
risk of, I don't want to be droning on, but so

00:40:27.650 --> 00:40:31.530
what happened, you know, and this is what, again,

00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:34.309
this is also part and parcel to what's portrayed

00:40:34.309 --> 00:40:39.659
in Dope Sick. Purdue, of course, had to get OxyContin

00:40:39.659 --> 00:40:43.460
approved by the FDA. And this is around 1994

00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:47.019
to 1995. It got approved at the end of 94. So

00:40:47.019 --> 00:40:51.440
this is 94. There was an FDA reviewer, a doctor

00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:54.920
named Dr. Curtis Wright, who was assigned to

00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.920
review and approve OxyContin for the FDA. Now,

00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:04.659
Dr. Wright, it was a trained and had practiced

00:41:04.659 --> 00:41:08.199
as an addictionologist. OK, he had treated addiction

00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:14.119
of various kinds, including opioids. So, you

00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:17.320
know, he was the person I think at FDA who they

00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:19.780
said, OK, he's got expertise in this area. He

00:41:19.780 --> 00:41:24.980
should review it. Now, what Dr. Wright did apparently

00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:31.179
was, you know, and it's a little murky, but he

00:41:31.179 --> 00:41:34.980
had meetings outside of the FDA's office with

00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:38.579
Purdue Pharma's. executives or the team that

00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:41.619
they put together to get OxyContin through the

00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:49.079
FDA. And one of the things that comes with a

00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.039
new drug that's approved by the FDA is what's

00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:56.679
called a package insert. Okay. And, you know,

00:41:56.699 --> 00:41:59.280
when you go and pick up a prescription from the

00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:03.800
pharmacy, you get like a stack of papers, right,

00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:06.539
that you don't read. You kind of just throw away,

00:42:06.619 --> 00:42:10.639
well, that's the package. That's the patient

00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:14.139
version of the package insert. So there's also

00:42:14.139 --> 00:42:17.880
a more official physician's version of the package

00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:23.360
insert, which talks about the dosing, the frequency,

00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:27.659
potential side effects, has a lot of information

00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:33.159
in it. One of the things that the Purdue folks.

00:42:34.289 --> 00:42:37.750
got put into that package insert courtesy of

00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:45.050
Curtis Wright was the statement that delayed

00:42:45.050 --> 00:42:51.190
release as provided by OxyContin tablets is believed

00:42:51.190 --> 00:42:56.130
to reduce the abuse liability of a drug. OK,

00:42:56.230 --> 00:42:59.050
so if you think about that statement, what does

00:42:59.050 --> 00:43:01.789
it really mean? Nothing. It doesn't mean nothing,

00:43:01.849 --> 00:43:06.840
but it's got. language in there that kind of

00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.679
says this is the FDA's approved language for

00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:13.840
this drug. So when a sales rep would walk into

00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:16.780
a doctor's office to promote OxyContin and they

00:43:16.780 --> 00:43:19.460
would tell the doctor, hey, we got pills that

00:43:19.460 --> 00:43:25.099
have 10, 20, 40, 80, 160 milligrams of Oxycodone

00:43:25.099 --> 00:43:28.460
in them and they are less addictive. And the

00:43:28.460 --> 00:43:32.619
doctor who is. has any kind of street smarts

00:43:32.619 --> 00:43:36.039
even, and has any kind of training says, you're

00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:39.860
crazy. That amount of oxycodone in one pill,

00:43:40.119 --> 00:43:44.300
there's no way it's less addictive than a 10

00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:49.159
milligram Percocet pill. And so the sales rep

00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.179
pulls out the package insert and says, look,

00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:56.199
read this language here. According to the FDA,

00:43:56.440 --> 00:44:01.300
this is the FDA's official position, our pills

00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:05.360
are believed to reduce its abuse liability. That's

00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:09.019
kind of the hook that they had to convince doctors

00:44:09.019 --> 00:44:12.119
that what they were telling them, the blatant

00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:16.400
lie of less addiction and less abusability, was,

00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.840
you know, there was some truth there because

00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.500
it was endorsed by the FDA with that ridiculous

00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:28.530
language. That was approved by Dr. Wright, who

00:44:28.530 --> 00:44:30.409
should have known better because he was trained

00:44:30.409 --> 00:44:37.210
in treating addiction. You know, I spent a lot

00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:39.409
of time investigating him because I said there's

00:44:39.409 --> 00:44:42.889
something there, but I could never, never prove

00:44:42.889 --> 00:44:47.210
any kind of corruption or any kind of, you know,

00:44:47.210 --> 00:44:50.250
payoff or anything like that. And then the rules

00:44:50.250 --> 00:44:53.789
for. One of the problems with our government

00:44:53.789 --> 00:44:58.170
is that the rules for conflicts of interest are

00:44:58.170 --> 00:45:02.329
so lax that there's nothing that he did that

00:45:02.329 --> 00:45:05.170
was a violation of any kind of regulation or

00:45:05.170 --> 00:45:09.650
rule or conflict of interest. But that, to me,

00:45:09.690 --> 00:45:15.170
is really the thing. The FDA was fully complicit.

00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:18.760
in the opioid crisis because that language was

00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:21.340
allowed to be in that package insert for the

00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:23.719
first seven years that the drug was on the market.

00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:28.139
Quick question. After the FDA, who did Curtis

00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:32.420
Wright work for? He went to work, yes. He went

00:45:32.420 --> 00:45:37.519
to work for, so he left the FDA and he went into

00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:41.940
some obscure pharmacy company, pharmaceutical

00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:46.409
company for about 12 to 18 months. my view to

00:45:46.409 --> 00:45:48.630
make it look good. And then he went to work for

00:45:48.630 --> 00:45:52.590
Purdue Pharma at $400 ,000 a year, I think about

00:45:52.590 --> 00:45:57.969
quadruple his FDA salary. And yeah, that was

00:45:57.969 --> 00:46:01.550
all very suspicious. I mean, we see it over and

00:46:01.550 --> 00:46:02.989
over again. There are people that were in the

00:46:02.989 --> 00:46:05.210
government that then worked for weapons manufacturers.

00:46:05.429 --> 00:46:08.769
I mean, all these people that are obviously greasing.

00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:12.739
the pathways for their companies to benefit off

00:46:12.739 --> 00:46:15.559
the american people then lo and behold a year

00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.639
two years later they're working for the very

00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:19.840
you know organizations that they were supposed

00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.360
to be regulating and you know and again it is

00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:24.380
us that is paying the price i mean i saw it as

00:46:24.380 --> 00:46:27.280
a paramedic the number of opioid deaths that

00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:29.599
i went to the number i'd say one of the biggest

00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:32.099
you know the largest amount of people that i

00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:35.090
saved was simply through narcan And Narcan not

00:46:35.090 --> 00:46:37.210
being invented, you know, I'd have a lot more

00:46:37.210 --> 00:46:40.570
deaths on my career. So this is what blows my

00:46:40.570 --> 00:46:43.309
mind is that this happens over and over and over

00:46:43.309 --> 00:46:46.409
again. And yet, you know, those people aren't

00:46:46.409 --> 00:46:50.329
held accountable. And it is directly at the cost

00:46:50.329 --> 00:46:54.610
of American men, women and children. Yes, that's.

00:46:55.310 --> 00:46:58.809
And that's existed for a long time. It's called

00:46:58.809 --> 00:47:01.650
the revolving door is one of the phrases that's

00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:06.309
used. When I worked in D .C. back in the 80s,

00:47:06.309 --> 00:47:09.510
we talked about that all the time. So the revolving

00:47:09.510 --> 00:47:13.670
door has been there for decades, maybe longer.

00:47:14.769 --> 00:47:19.670
It is a flaw in our system that people can capitalize

00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:23.989
on their government service and go out and...

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:28.780
in a conflict of interest scenario. And they

00:47:28.780 --> 00:47:33.280
also come back and part of what happened in Purdue

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:38.320
was the phone call from the well -financed, well

00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:42.840
-connected defense lawyers to the Department

00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:46.239
of Justice. The connections there also exist.

00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:53.519
Those are two things that... should be fixed.

00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:56.300
I don't know that there's a will to do that.

00:47:57.500 --> 00:48:01.840
But the conflict of interest of coming into government

00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:04.679
and greasing the skids and then going out and

00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:08.059
capitalizing on, you know, your work for the

00:48:08.059 --> 00:48:12.460
government that you maybe didn't do the way you

00:48:12.460 --> 00:48:18.420
should do. And then also the concept of Certain

00:48:18.420 --> 00:48:21.079
people being able to call, make phone calls to

00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:23.539
people who are in decision -making positions

00:48:23.539 --> 00:48:28.340
with that kind of influence. Those are two things

00:48:28.340 --> 00:48:32.760
that are a real problem. And like you say, it

00:48:32.760 --> 00:48:36.880
costs lives. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, it's

00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:39.900
portrayed in Dope Sick, but the Giuliani connection

00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:43.179
was already related to Purdue Pharma as well.

00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:48.659
Yeah. So as as our case progressed and we got

00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:51.579
to the point of, OK, we've got this, we're ready

00:48:51.579 --> 00:48:53.360
to pull the trigger. You know, what normally

00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:57.059
happens is we'll reach out to the company attorneys

00:48:57.059 --> 00:49:00.579
and say, hey, we're going to provide you. We're

00:49:00.579 --> 00:49:02.179
going to sit down with you and sort of give you

00:49:02.179 --> 00:49:04.460
a preview of what we found in our investigation

00:49:04.460 --> 00:49:09.039
to see if you want to come to a resolution before

00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:14.199
we go formally to court. They brought in. Giuliani

00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:18.579
as kind of their their fixer. Right. And the

00:49:18.579 --> 00:49:20.579
reason they brought in Giuliani was this was

00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:26.239
2006. So there's you know, there's the election

00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:29.579
cycle for 2008 was getting ready to gear up.

00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:35.980
Giuliani at that time was viewed as one of the

00:49:35.980 --> 00:49:38.579
leading candidates for the Republican nomination

00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:42.320
for president. Okay, this was 2006. He was coming

00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:46.900
off of the 9 -11 and he was, you know, America's

00:49:46.900 --> 00:49:51.980
mayor, all that kind of stuff. And so he was

00:49:51.980 --> 00:49:57.059
brought in because of that power that he had

00:49:57.059 --> 00:50:01.940
as a potential Republican presidential candidate,

00:50:02.139 --> 00:50:06.400
which meant that he had a direct line. He could

00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:09.389
pick up the phone and call. the decision makers

00:50:09.389 --> 00:50:11.550
in the Department of Justice who were part of

00:50:11.550 --> 00:50:15.610
the Bush administration, Republicans, which he

00:50:15.610 --> 00:50:23.789
did, and get an exert influence that way. So

00:50:23.789 --> 00:50:27.110
that, you know, again, my view, that absolutely

00:50:27.110 --> 00:50:32.050
happened. That's why we had proposed the prosecution,

00:50:32.510 --> 00:50:36.510
felony prosecutions of... not only the company,

00:50:36.610 --> 00:50:42.050
but the three top executives at the time. Our

00:50:42.050 --> 00:50:47.969
case was criminal. It was almost exclusively

00:50:47.969 --> 00:50:51.510
criminal until we reached the settlement phase.

00:50:52.429 --> 00:50:55.710
And in a criminal case, as you probably know

00:50:55.710 --> 00:50:58.510
or many people know, is you start at the bottom

00:50:58.510 --> 00:51:00.989
and you work your way up to get to the top, right?

00:51:03.070 --> 00:51:07.289
our view was that we wanted to to prosecute the

00:51:07.289 --> 00:51:12.230
highest level of uh corporate officer that the

00:51:12.230 --> 00:51:15.909
evidence allowed us to do in applying the beyond

00:51:15.909 --> 00:51:17.949
a reasonable doubt standard and we had gotten

00:51:17.949 --> 00:51:22.349
to the ceo the general counsel and the medical

00:51:22.349 --> 00:51:25.989
director and but above them were the board of

00:51:25.989 --> 00:51:30.369
directors okay the sackler family and what we

00:51:30.369 --> 00:51:34.440
needed we we had some information about the Sackler

00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.559
family, certain of the Sacklers, two or three

00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:40.699
of the Sacklers, in particular one, Richard Sackler,

00:51:40.780 --> 00:51:45.059
who was calling the shots. We had some information

00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:49.000
about him, but we needed one more witness, right?

00:51:49.099 --> 00:51:53.019
One of these top three guys to roll up on the

00:51:53.019 --> 00:51:55.460
person that was directing them to do things.

00:51:55.980 --> 00:52:01.500
And so the thinking was that If they were faced

00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:04.340
with felony prosecutions or even felony convictions,

00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:09.579
those got one or more of them might very well

00:52:09.579 --> 00:52:12.199
decide they wanted to cooperate to get out from

00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:16.460
under prison time. So that was sort of where

00:52:16.460 --> 00:52:19.059
we had put posture the case when we went up to

00:52:19.059 --> 00:52:20.840
the Department of Justice because it had to be

00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:24.739
approved at that level. And that's kind of where.

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:30.760
Rudy Giuliani exercised his influence because

00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:35.800
we had meetings up there and we were told that

00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:37.599
we were not going to be allowed to prosecute

00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:42.820
any of the individuals. Just to clarify, as we

00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:46.000
sit here in 2025, I've looked for many, many

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.320
posts and things that I've talked about in the

00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.699
last few years. We lose basically 100 ,000 people

00:52:52.699 --> 00:52:57.519
annually. to the opioid crisis so all these people

00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.239
that we've talked about the fda giuliani all

00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:02.300
these other people that are benefiting financially

00:53:02.300 --> 00:53:06.719
from this are doing so as we lose a hundred thousand

00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:11.400
americans every single year can i add to that

00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:16.380
yes a hundred thousand we're well over a million

00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:20.980
um opioid overdose deaths but also think about

00:53:21.530 --> 00:53:27.269
the countless millions more of people who have

00:53:27.269 --> 00:53:30.469
become addicted to opioids and the impact on

00:53:30.469 --> 00:53:33.250
their families, okay? You're not talking about

00:53:33.250 --> 00:53:37.070
your... Yeah, it's horrible that you have overdose

00:53:37.070 --> 00:53:40.349
deaths and those families impacted. On top of

00:53:40.349 --> 00:53:44.750
that, you have the addiction of millions and

00:53:44.750 --> 00:53:48.960
what that does to their families, right? It is,

00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:52.239
you know, it's not just limited to 100 ,000 deaths

00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:54.719
per year. You're talking, if you add in the families,

00:53:54.820 --> 00:53:57.500
I believe the families are victims as well. And

00:53:57.500 --> 00:54:02.619
so you're talking about literally, I don't know,

00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:07.239
10 million, 20 million, 50 million people who

00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:10.019
are impacted in one way or another. And yes,

00:54:11.059 --> 00:54:19.760
you know, it just kind of. boggles the mind that

00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:25.420
there really is no justice for those families

00:54:25.420 --> 00:54:30.019
and those people. I mean, once I retired, I decided

00:54:30.019 --> 00:54:33.400
I would do whatever I could for victims. And

00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:39.000
so I've got a few contacts in the opioid victim

00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:43.380
community. In fact, a fellow... that I've been

00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:47.699
a friend that I've met through this process named

00:54:47.699 --> 00:54:51.800
Ed Bish lost his son in 2001, 18 year old son

00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.179
in 2001, when nobody really knew what was going

00:54:55.179 --> 00:54:58.920
on, it took one pill, one Oxycontin pill ended

00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:01.400
up dead just like that, you know? And so he's

00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:05.219
been fighting for justice now for almost 25 years.

00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:10.860
I mean, the families want to see, and I believe

00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:14.750
the only way you, deter that kind of conduct

00:55:14.750 --> 00:55:19.070
is to criminally prosecute those who are responsible.

00:55:19.349 --> 00:55:22.550
And I'm talking about responsible corporate officers,

00:55:22.889 --> 00:55:27.429
not street dealers, you know, not middle managers,

00:55:27.829 --> 00:55:31.150
but the people at the top who are making the

00:55:31.150 --> 00:55:39.110
decisions that result in the illegal marketing

00:55:39.110 --> 00:55:44.880
or the false marketing of drugs that doctors

00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.059
then prescribe and that end up killing people

00:55:47.059 --> 00:55:52.280
and ruining families and lives. The government,

00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:55.820
this is another problem. Let's say the third

00:55:55.820 --> 00:55:59.820
flaw in the government is that the enforcement

00:55:59.820 --> 00:56:06.519
program for pharmaceutical companies in general

00:56:06.519 --> 00:56:11.239
and opioid manufacturers in particular is to

00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:15.099
go after companies and make companies pay fines.

00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:19.440
That's the enforcement program. Well, the fines

00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:22.900
are never going to be high enough to match the

00:56:22.900 --> 00:56:26.900
profits that were made. Therefore, the fines

00:56:26.900 --> 00:56:30.179
that the government collects from these companies

00:56:30.179 --> 00:56:34.579
is the cost of doing business. And they have

00:56:34.579 --> 00:56:37.980
profited so much that their conduct is not going

00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:41.980
to change. Companies are not driverless cars,

00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:48.619
okay? Companies do illegal conduct because responsible

00:56:48.619 --> 00:56:52.760
corporate officials made decisions that they

00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:54.800
should do, that they will do illegal conduct.

00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:58.559
And those responsible corporate officials need

00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:01.960
to be held accountable. And until you start holding

00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:05.400
them accountable, that conduct is not going to

00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:07.780
change. That's the only way you're going to change

00:57:07.780 --> 00:57:09.820
corporate conduct is to hold the responsible

00:57:09.820 --> 00:57:13.760
corporate officers or officials or executives

00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:20.320
who made the decisions to have the company do

00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:23.840
illegal things. You have to hold them accountable.

00:57:23.940 --> 00:57:26.800
Otherwise, nothing changes. And that's borne

00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:29.679
out. I mean, you can go and look at how many,

00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:33.300
the number of companies that the Department of

00:57:33.300 --> 00:57:37.059
Justice has. prosecuted either criminally or

00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:40.800
civilly over the past 25 years it's in the thousands

00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:44.380
okay and they've collected lots of money the

00:57:44.380 --> 00:57:47.300
press releases of the billions of dollars that

00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:51.300
have been collected nothing changes then if you're

00:57:51.300 --> 00:57:53.820
doing it for 25 years and you're still collecting

00:57:53.820 --> 00:57:57.139
that money something's wake up somebody ought

00:57:57.139 --> 00:58:00.079
to wake up and say wait a minute nothing's changing

00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:02.059
behavior is not changing we're just collecting

00:58:02.059 --> 00:58:07.860
money For those companies, it's like a speeding

00:58:07.860 --> 00:58:11.260
ticket. Write a check, keep doing what you're

00:58:11.260 --> 00:58:15.320
doing because you're making so much money. And

00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:17.840
this is something that we were wanting to do

00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:20.280
from the beginning of the Purdue case. We knew

00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:23.739
that the conduct would not change unless you

00:58:23.739 --> 00:58:26.579
held the responsible corporate officers accountable.

00:58:27.260 --> 00:58:29.500
And we were not allowed to do that for political

00:58:29.500 --> 00:58:33.079
reasons. Well, let's talk then about that, you

00:58:33.079 --> 00:58:34.980
know, talk about the initial settlement. I know

00:58:34.980 --> 00:58:37.920
it's in the news again at the moment. You know,

00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:41.000
how much was the settlement? And then let's contrast

00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:43.019
that exactly what you're talking about with how

00:58:43.019 --> 00:58:46.260
much was made off, you know, the blood of the

00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:49.619
American people that took this and died. Yeah.

00:58:50.019 --> 00:58:53.360
So I'm going to I'm going to go into the lead

00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:55.099
into the settlement we met at the Department

00:58:55.099 --> 00:58:59.599
of Justice. and made presentations to the high

00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:02.559
officials, to the assistant attorney general

00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:05.239
for criminal who was delegated by the deputy

00:59:05.239 --> 00:59:08.579
attorney general to handle all the meetings and

00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:16.000
all the stuff involved. And so the Purdue attorneys

00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:18.320
were allowed to meet. They didn't have a time

00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:21.019
limit. When we went up there, we were given an

00:59:21.019 --> 00:59:24.869
hour. When we were done with the meeting, I was

00:59:24.869 --> 00:59:26.929
waiting outside. The U .S. attorney, my immediate

00:59:26.929 --> 00:59:30.389
boss, came out from meeting with the assistant

00:59:30.389 --> 00:59:36.769
attorney general and some other aides and said

00:59:36.769 --> 00:59:39.210
he was all upset. They're not going to let us

00:59:39.210 --> 00:59:41.349
prosecute the individuals and they want us to

00:59:41.349 --> 00:59:44.610
resolve this case. So we met with the Purdue

00:59:44.610 --> 00:59:51.719
attorneys that evening. And we basically. managed

00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:55.539
to salvage having those three executives plead

00:59:55.539 --> 00:59:59.940
guilty to misdemeanors. So there was some, and

00:59:59.940 --> 01:00:03.019
if you look again at the records of the department,

01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:08.059
that in and of itself is very rare. Okay. You

01:00:08.059 --> 01:00:10.179
could probably count on one hand, the number

01:00:10.179 --> 01:00:12.559
of executives that they have actually had to

01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:18.199
plead guilty to something. Of all the thousands

01:00:18.199 --> 01:00:21.960
of cases that have been done. So we at the time

01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.320
we were feeling at least we salvaged that those

01:00:25.320 --> 01:00:27.380
guys are going to get a conviction, although

01:00:27.380 --> 01:00:29.920
it's a misdemeanor and there's no now no incentive

01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:33.739
for them to cooperate because there's not going

01:00:33.739 --> 01:00:36.619
to be any jail time. We at least thought we had

01:00:36.619 --> 01:00:40.780
salvaged that. And then we the amount of money

01:00:40.780 --> 01:00:45.750
that. we required Purdue to pay was, I think,

01:00:45.750 --> 01:00:52.590
around $650 million, if I recall correctly. So

01:00:52.590 --> 01:00:56.690
it was a $650 million, three misdemeanor pleas

01:00:56.690 --> 01:01:01.389
by the top three executives. And we thought,

01:01:01.389 --> 01:01:05.309
given that the department had basically cut our

01:01:05.309 --> 01:01:07.730
legs out from under us, we thought that that

01:01:07.730 --> 01:01:10.289
was like, that's the best we're going to do.

01:01:10.889 --> 01:01:15.369
It's not satisfactory, but it's something. And

01:01:15.369 --> 01:01:19.650
maybe we can shine the light on Purdue Pharma

01:01:19.650 --> 01:01:24.889
as being this criminal lying, you know, lie telling

01:01:24.889 --> 01:01:31.349
company. And maybe the public will see that and

01:01:31.349 --> 01:01:35.710
conduct will change accordingly. Unfortunately,

01:01:35.889 --> 01:01:40.219
no. And by that time, I think, as I recall, Purdue

01:01:40.219 --> 01:01:44.920
had made probably in the neighborhood of three

01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:47.940
or four billion dollars. So a 650 million dollar,

01:01:47.940 --> 01:01:53.639
you know, payment, you know, cost of doing business.

01:01:53.760 --> 01:02:00.280
Right. Well, so I went on, you know, I went on

01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:05.139
to do other things, other cases, but. What happened

01:02:05.139 --> 01:02:06.840
in the meantime, and I've gone back and looked

01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:11.019
and read a lot of the documentation. In 2007,

01:02:11.739 --> 01:02:16.480
that's when our case was resolved. It went to

01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:20.639
court. The guilty pleas were entered. The judgments

01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:25.380
were entered. At that point, apparently not too

01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:29.340
long after, the Purdue Board of Directors, the

01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:32.800
Sackler family, decided to hire this. public

01:02:32.800 --> 01:02:37.500
relations firm called McKinsey to see how they

01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:42.539
could, quote, turbocharge OxyContin sales. Okay.

01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:49.360
So, again, perhaps naively, I thought, oh, well,

01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:55.019
they dodged a bullet, right? We were threatening

01:02:55.019 --> 01:02:57.730
a whole lot more, but they got off. you know,

01:02:57.730 --> 01:02:59.530
relatively easily, maybe they're going to change

01:02:59.530 --> 01:03:02.409
their behavior. No, they decided to double down

01:03:02.409 --> 01:03:05.230
and hire the public relations firm so they could

01:03:05.230 --> 01:03:13.090
turbocharge OxyContin sales. And so that's what

01:03:13.090 --> 01:03:15.929
they did. They targeted, and this is in the 2020

01:03:15.929 --> 01:03:18.670
guilty plea. Okay. So now you have a two -time

01:03:18.670 --> 01:03:24.320
drug dealing offender. If it was any of us. The

01:03:24.320 --> 01:03:26.440
second time they lock us up and throw away the

01:03:26.440 --> 01:03:31.300
key. Right. So 2020, the 2020 case, they turbocharged

01:03:31.300 --> 01:03:34.900
Oxycontin sales. They targeted the doctors who

01:03:34.900 --> 01:03:37.039
were the highest prescribers and who were the

01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:42.960
most likely to be diverting over prescribing

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:47.019
and knowingly prescribing to abusers. And they

01:03:47.019 --> 01:03:52.820
they sold. I think around 11 billion dollars.

01:03:53.639 --> 01:04:00.500
in OxyContin between 2008 and 2016. At the same

01:04:00.500 --> 01:04:06.199
time in 2007, 2008, the family, the Sackler family

01:04:06.199 --> 01:04:08.739
had conversations apparently among themselves

01:04:08.739 --> 01:04:13.159
and said, hey, somebody else is going to come

01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:16.519
after us. We need to make sure we move our money

01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:20.840
to places where it cannot be reached. And this

01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:23.880
is in the Supreme Court's opinion on the bankruptcy.

01:04:24.619 --> 01:04:29.579
They began in 2008 moving, taking money out of

01:04:29.579 --> 01:04:32.719
Purdue, basically leaving Purdue just bare bones

01:04:32.719 --> 01:04:37.139
operating fund and moving it offshore to offshore

01:04:37.139 --> 01:04:40.840
accounts and to family businesses to prevent

01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:45.099
anyone from coming after their money after they.

01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:49.420
did this next set of crimes from 2008 to 2016.

01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:54.039
And the crimes that they had Purdue do under

01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:58.519
the McKinsey guidance were much more serious

01:04:58.519 --> 01:05:01.239
even. I mean, the crimes that I prosecuted were

01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:07.440
lying about the drug to doctors. The crimes that

01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:11.000
they committed involved, you know, that the company

01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:15.800
pled guilty to in 2020 were... crimes related

01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:20.199
to straight up narcotics trafficking, healthcare

01:05:20.199 --> 01:05:27.539
fraud, and paying kickbacks. Okay. Now, 2020's

01:05:27.539 --> 01:05:33.000
case, not a single executive, not a single individual

01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:38.059
has been prosecuted for those more egregious

01:05:38.059 --> 01:05:42.500
crimes for that second, you know, the recidivism.

01:05:43.700 --> 01:05:48.000
crimes. And that is, to me, that is outrageous.

01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:51.960
That is completely outrageous. There are documents

01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:54.460
that are filed, and the Sacklers actually had

01:05:54.460 --> 01:05:56.980
a civil settlement themselves, that involved

01:05:56.980 --> 01:06:00.320
themselves, a civil settlement. The language

01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.619
in that civil settlement, there's always something

01:06:02.619 --> 01:06:06.280
called covered conduct. The covered conduct in

01:06:06.280 --> 01:06:09.619
that civil settlement to which the Sacklers don't

01:06:09.619 --> 01:06:12.320
agree, but the government does not put covered

01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:16.260
conduct into a document that's filed in the courts

01:06:16.260 --> 01:06:20.199
unless it has a basis to do that. It shows that

01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:25.260
the Sacklers were making the decisions regarding

01:06:25.260 --> 01:06:28.920
the criminal conduct that occurred from 2008

01:06:28.920 --> 01:06:36.860
to 2016. So, that's, you know, it becomes almost,

01:06:37.019 --> 01:06:39.980
it becomes really outrageous. at this point.

01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:44.460
And you have them on top of that to add to the

01:06:44.460 --> 01:06:49.000
outrage because all of their money is overseas.

01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:51.960
And now they've got this flood of lawsuits coming

01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:55.260
in from government agencies and private individuals.

01:06:56.000 --> 01:07:00.079
They put the company in bankruptcy. Okay. They

01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:03.599
choose a bankruptcy court. in White Plains, New

01:07:03.599 --> 01:07:08.639
York, where the judge has a very favorable disposition

01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:14.119
towards allowing non -parties to get releases.

01:07:15.340 --> 01:07:19.420
So, of course, part of the settlement that's

01:07:19.420 --> 01:07:22.880
advanced by Purdue for the bankruptcy is that

01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:26.199
the Sackler family members and a whole list of

01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:28.960
others, including corporate officers in Purdue,

01:07:30.219 --> 01:07:33.119
are going to get releases from all civil liability

01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:36.619
out of a bankruptcy that just involves the company.

01:07:37.760 --> 01:07:43.440
And so you have essentially the Sackler family

01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:48.059
who the Supreme Court has documented laundered

01:07:48.059 --> 01:07:52.900
money out of Purdue, which pled guilty, which

01:07:52.900 --> 01:07:55.719
makes that money the proceeds of criminal conduct.

01:07:56.920 --> 01:08:00.579
Getting the benefit. of a bankruptcy that they're

01:08:00.579 --> 01:08:06.280
not a party to. Okay? So, outrage upon outrage

01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:10.559
and complete breakdown of the whole justice system

01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:17.899
is what I see in the government, the Department

01:08:17.899 --> 01:08:23.010
of Justice under, you know, two different Well,

01:08:23.029 --> 01:08:24.649
three different administrations that you have.

01:08:24.750 --> 01:08:27.149
The Trump administration originally, the Biden

01:08:27.149 --> 01:08:29.029
administration, and the Trump administration

01:08:29.029 --> 01:08:35.529
second have done nothing. Okay. Which underlines

01:08:35.529 --> 01:08:38.050
our point. It's not about the Republicans or

01:08:38.050 --> 01:08:40.609
the Democrats. It's the wrong kind of people

01:08:40.609 --> 01:08:43.069
in these positions. And, you know, when you look

01:08:43.069 --> 01:08:44.890
at the, you know, the way that the Sacklers are

01:08:44.890 --> 01:08:48.569
portrayed, it mirrors something that I've kind

01:08:48.569 --> 01:08:51.289
of had an awakening myself about only a year

01:08:51.289 --> 01:08:54.260
ago. I've spent nine years talking about mental

01:08:54.260 --> 01:08:57.199
health as one of the topics when it comes to

01:08:57.199 --> 01:08:59.699
first responders and military members and doctors

01:08:59.699 --> 01:09:03.279
and nurses and everyone else. And when you talk

01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:05.319
about that in our profession, you talk about

01:09:05.319 --> 01:09:07.800
us, the guys on the streets, the ones trying

01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:09.680
to save the lives of the very people that we've

01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:12.539
been talking about for the last hour. But we

01:09:12.539 --> 01:09:14.560
don't talk about the people that are at the helm,

01:09:14.659 --> 01:09:17.880
whether it's a fire chief, whether it's a president,

01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:20.979
whether it's a CEO. And if there is unaddressed

01:09:20.979 --> 01:09:24.279
mental ill health and a sociopath is allowed

01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:28.840
to be at the helm of this kind of company where

01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:31.359
people are dying, whether you're burying your

01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:33.420
own soldiers or firefighters or whether your

01:09:33.420 --> 01:09:36.840
product is killing people and you sleep soundly

01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:40.939
at night, you are not. you know fit for that

01:09:40.939 --> 01:09:43.859
position and we do not have that discussion i

01:09:43.859 --> 01:09:45.920
mean the current i would say like as you just

01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:48.619
alluded to the last what would that be nine plus

01:09:48.619 --> 01:09:52.100
years the people that we've had leading this

01:09:52.100 --> 01:09:56.220
country are unfit mentally unfit and yet we just

01:09:56.220 --> 01:10:00.979
turn our heads yeah and i think uh a lot of it

01:10:00.979 --> 01:10:05.939
has to do with money right uh the the companies

01:10:05.939 --> 01:10:10.880
that do these things are making campaign contributions,

01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:17.399
paying lobbyists big money to go knock on doors

01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:21.300
up on Capitol Hill and in Washington in general.

01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:28.100
And that, unfortunately, is what is kind of ruling

01:10:28.100 --> 01:10:34.210
the day, kind of what we see. in the nursing

01:10:34.210 --> 01:10:37.369
home industry as well. I mean, I think it covers

01:10:37.369 --> 01:10:42.069
most of the healthcare industry where lobbying

01:10:42.069 --> 01:10:45.189
and campaign contributions sway public policy

01:10:45.189 --> 01:10:50.369
and legislation. And people, ordinary people,

01:10:50.630 --> 01:10:53.649
you know, there's a lot of advocates to say,

01:10:53.710 --> 01:10:55.670
let's write our congressman and let's send emails

01:10:55.670 --> 01:10:58.569
to the congressman and to the senators, et cetera.

01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:02.739
I'm kind of a cynic now. I don't know that I

01:11:02.739 --> 01:11:07.000
should. Well, people should take this with a

01:11:07.000 --> 01:11:12.720
grain of salt. OK, my view is this. The companies

01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:15.800
that are making money, that making huge profits

01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:20.880
off of a system that is broken, they go to the

01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:23.239
congressmen, the senators and the legislatures,

01:11:23.239 --> 01:11:26.640
even at the state level with bags of cash. OK,

01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:29.689
and they and they get. they get a seat at the

01:11:29.689 --> 01:11:32.810
table, they get heard. If you're just writing

01:11:32.810 --> 01:11:35.289
letters because you don't have bags of cash or

01:11:35.289 --> 01:11:37.710
you're sending emails, they don't care, okay?

01:11:38.329 --> 01:11:41.470
They don't, real honest, my view is they do not

01:11:41.470 --> 01:11:45.029
care because the cash is more important to them.

01:11:45.649 --> 01:11:49.949
And so people need to understand what's going

01:11:49.949 --> 01:11:54.970
on, that this is the system that we have. And

01:11:54.970 --> 01:11:57.789
I think the only way that we can change that

01:11:57.789 --> 01:12:01.949
is that people learn about it, they understand

01:12:01.949 --> 01:12:05.770
it, and they get outraged about it, and they

01:12:05.770 --> 01:12:15.149
vote those people out. There's too many people

01:12:15.149 --> 01:12:22.380
that are just sitting in their positions. making

01:12:22.380 --> 01:12:26.600
plenty of money to finance advertising for their

01:12:26.600 --> 01:12:30.039
campaigns, but they're really not doing anything.

01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:34.239
They're actually hurting people, right? And I

01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:36.500
know that sometimes we feel powerless to do that,

01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:42.399
but I think that if we were to educate ourselves

01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:47.680
and come together again, the need to come together

01:12:47.680 --> 01:12:51.319
because... And there's an advantage to dividing

01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:53.319
the people, right? They don't come together.

01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:55.460
We can come together and try to make a change.

01:12:55.720 --> 01:12:58.439
But it's not going to happen as long as we keep,

01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:01.619
you know, lining up and thinking that we're all

01:13:01.619 --> 01:13:05.380
divided. I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's

01:13:05.380 --> 01:13:07.880
funny when you were talking about the lack of

01:13:07.880 --> 01:13:09.800
accountability. I was just thinking tongue in

01:13:09.800 --> 01:13:11.720
cheek how the National Guard needs to put it

01:13:11.720 --> 01:13:14.180
in D .C., not the streets of these cities. You

01:13:14.180 --> 01:13:16.720
know, if you're talking about criminals that

01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:19.529
are. causing hundreds of thousands of deaths

01:13:19.529 --> 01:13:21.550
you know annually whether it's through obesity

01:13:21.550 --> 01:13:23.369
whether it's through addiction whether it's through

01:13:23.369 --> 01:13:26.170
these chemical companies poisoning or tobacco

01:13:26.170 --> 01:13:28.189
or whatever it is i mean that's where we should

01:13:28.189 --> 01:13:33.130
be deploying people with that being said i had

01:13:33.130 --> 01:13:35.470
a sam quinones on the show who wrote dreamland

01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:38.710
and his perspective was he did a good job of

01:13:38.710 --> 01:13:42.789
kind of detailing the pharmaceutical side, but

01:13:42.789 --> 01:13:44.970
then also the closing of the pill mills about

01:13:44.970 --> 01:13:46.850
the time that we're talking about now. And again,

01:13:47.050 --> 01:13:49.729
I remember, you know, the one in Orlando having

01:13:49.729 --> 01:13:51.850
the line of people around it, and then one day

01:13:51.850 --> 01:13:54.649
it was shut down. So now you've got all these

01:13:54.649 --> 01:13:57.689
addicts that were, you know, spoon fed through

01:13:57.689 --> 01:14:01.550
the legal route. Now that's taken away. And now

01:14:01.550 --> 01:14:06.840
you've got the cartels coming from Mexico. Again,

01:14:07.020 --> 01:14:09.960
the same exact business model that's target where

01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:11.939
these addicts are. Again, these same kind of

01:14:11.939 --> 01:14:14.539
industrial towns where there aren't already big

01:14:14.539 --> 01:14:18.399
gang, you know, gang presences. And now that's

01:14:18.399 --> 01:14:20.659
what led to the, you know, the heroin spike.

01:14:20.859 --> 01:14:23.100
And then we had fentanyl. And obviously now we're

01:14:23.100 --> 01:14:25.060
losing more people than ever because of the potency

01:14:25.060 --> 01:14:28.420
of that. One thing that if we're talking about

01:14:28.420 --> 01:14:30.199
healing and we're talking about coming together

01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:34.210
and we're talking about being proactive. I've

01:14:34.210 --> 01:14:36.329
said this story many times on here. My mom moved

01:14:36.329 --> 01:14:39.649
to Portugal about 25 years ago. And when I started

01:14:39.649 --> 01:14:41.649
the podcast, she said, you know what we did here

01:14:41.649 --> 01:14:45.369
in Portugal for addiction? And what had happened,

01:14:45.470 --> 01:14:48.210
they had had a massive opioid crisis after a

01:14:48.210 --> 01:14:51.729
war in one of their colonies. And they did the

01:14:51.729 --> 01:14:54.310
traditional war on drugs. And it just didn't

01:14:54.310 --> 01:14:58.680
work. And so they truly democratically, not demistocracy

01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:01.500
like we have here, you've got to be rich and

01:15:01.500 --> 01:15:04.260
no ethics, but actually put it to the people.

01:15:05.039 --> 01:15:08.140
And they voted to put addiction in the hands

01:15:08.140 --> 01:15:10.840
of the medical community. So they decriminalized

01:15:10.840 --> 01:15:13.119
addiction. Doesn't mean you can go into the grocery

01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:15.979
store and buy meth. You just, if you get caught

01:15:15.979 --> 01:15:18.739
with the user's amount, you get educated on the

01:15:18.739 --> 01:15:21.600
resources that are available to you. The addicts,

01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:23.159
I mean, excuse me, the smugglers still go to

01:15:23.159 --> 01:15:26.659
jail. The dealers still go to jail. But what

01:15:26.659 --> 01:15:30.420
they found is less than 10 years by destigmatizing

01:15:30.420 --> 01:15:33.659
being an addict and not giving them a criminal

01:15:33.659 --> 01:15:36.939
record for simply chasing their fix. They gave

01:15:36.939 --> 01:15:38.680
them addiction counseling. They gave them mental

01:15:38.680 --> 01:15:40.779
health counseling. There was job creation. There

01:15:40.779 --> 01:15:43.739
was housing. And less than 10 years, they went

01:15:43.739 --> 01:15:46.520
to the lowest addiction rate in the world, I

01:15:46.520 --> 01:15:50.899
believe. Incredible. What is your stance on decriminalization

01:15:50.899 --> 01:15:54.079
or legalization when it comes to the addict?

01:15:54.140 --> 01:15:56.720
Again, not the dealer, not the smuggler, but

01:15:56.720 --> 01:16:00.199
taking addiction and truly putting it into the

01:16:00.199 --> 01:16:02.640
world and funding it into the hands of the medical

01:16:02.640 --> 01:16:09.340
community. So back in around 2017 to 2018, when

01:16:09.340 --> 01:16:12.260
I was the U .S. attorney in the Western District

01:16:12.260 --> 01:16:16.550
of Virginia, I was working with DEA supervisors

01:16:16.550 --> 01:16:20.770
and other law enforcement. One of the things

01:16:20.770 --> 01:16:23.829
that we were saying back then in the law enforcement

01:16:23.829 --> 01:16:26.890
community is we're not going to be able to arrest

01:16:26.890 --> 01:16:31.109
our way out of this problem. OK, it's a three

01:16:31.109 --> 01:16:34.890
prong approach that needed to be taken. And as

01:16:34.890 --> 01:16:38.710
we were discussing back then, yeah, we go and

01:16:38.710 --> 01:16:41.850
arrest the dealers and the smugglers and those

01:16:41.850 --> 01:16:46.699
people. But you've got to have treatment. The

01:16:46.699 --> 01:16:50.479
treatment is inadequate, right? If you live in

01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:53.060
a rural area, you've got to travel miles to get

01:16:53.060 --> 01:16:55.380
treatment. You've got to have a strong treatment

01:16:55.380 --> 01:17:02.579
base. And you've got to try to get people who

01:17:02.579 --> 01:17:05.079
are addicted into those treatment centers. And

01:17:05.079 --> 01:17:07.619
you've got to have prevention, right? You've

01:17:07.619 --> 01:17:11.409
got to go start talking to... You know, maybe

01:17:11.409 --> 01:17:15.590
back then it was middle schoolers, but now you

01:17:15.590 --> 01:17:17.489
got to go start talking to elementary schoolers

01:17:17.489 --> 01:17:22.590
and educating them about what it is to, you know,

01:17:22.630 --> 01:17:25.689
the dangers, right? The death, the addiction,

01:17:25.989 --> 01:17:30.210
what that looks like. So we were having those

01:17:30.210 --> 01:17:34.630
conversations in 2017, 2018. It sounds like they've

01:17:34.630 --> 01:17:38.550
stopped. OK, we're now going to we're shutting

01:17:38.550 --> 01:17:40.850
the borders. We're going to like arrest everybody

01:17:40.850 --> 01:17:44.590
and we're going to like, you know, bomb bomb

01:17:44.590 --> 01:17:47.989
boats that are bringing drugs in. OK, well, that's

01:17:47.989 --> 01:17:52.189
that's all well and good. But you got. You know,

01:17:52.189 --> 01:17:57.229
millions of people who are addicted as a result

01:17:57.229 --> 01:18:03.020
of of corporate malfeasance. OK. And you shut

01:18:03.020 --> 01:18:05.399
off the supply. And so now they're having to

01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:07.520
go get more dangerous drugs. I mean, there's

01:18:07.520 --> 01:18:11.199
stuff that, you know, fentanyl and worse, believe

01:18:11.199 --> 01:18:13.600
it or not, worse than fentanyl, carfentanil and

01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:18.100
xylazine and all kinds of other substances that

01:18:18.100 --> 01:18:22.300
are out there. Where's the treatment? OK, I don't

01:18:22.300 --> 01:18:26.380
see much improvement in 10 years since we've

01:18:26.380 --> 01:18:28.779
we've known about this problem. We grapple with

01:18:28.779 --> 01:18:31.270
this problem with treatment. One of the takeaways

01:18:31.270 --> 01:18:35.529
from Dope Sick, not the story of my case, but

01:18:35.529 --> 01:18:38.270
one of the takeaways that I thought was good

01:18:38.270 --> 01:18:42.930
from Dope Sick was the destigmatizing of addiction,

01:18:43.229 --> 01:18:47.409
okay? That, you know, there are many different

01:18:47.409 --> 01:18:50.850
ways to provide treatment. I used to be kind

01:18:50.850 --> 01:18:54.890
of a skeptic of medication -assisted treatment,

01:18:55.109 --> 01:18:59.329
but on the other hand, you know the kind of the

01:18:59.329 --> 01:19:03.050
cold turkey gutted out didn't seem to be working

01:19:03.050 --> 01:19:07.350
real well so it you you got to just deploy all

01:19:07.350 --> 01:19:11.529
of of the treatment options and make those available

01:19:11.529 --> 01:19:15.449
i don't see that being done very well right now

01:19:15.449 --> 01:19:18.689
and i see almost no prevention quite frankly

01:19:18.689 --> 01:19:25.149
nobody's going out and trying to warn and educate

01:19:25.149 --> 01:19:30.779
young people about you know, the dangers of opioids

01:19:30.779 --> 01:19:38.720
and becoming addicted. If you count Purdue's

01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:43.659
piece, another $7 billion, $57 billion or more

01:19:43.659 --> 01:19:48.020
have been collected from different pharmaceutical

01:19:48.020 --> 01:19:51.699
companies over the past several years into these

01:19:51.699 --> 01:19:54.899
funds that are supposed to be going to opioid,

01:19:54.960 --> 01:19:59.430
quote, opioid abatement. I am very skeptical

01:19:59.430 --> 01:20:02.649
about how those are going to be used. A lot of

01:20:02.649 --> 01:20:05.550
them are going to just go to cover government

01:20:05.550 --> 01:20:11.289
programs and deficits and tax reduction and all

01:20:11.289 --> 01:20:21.489
that. We're not doing a good job with treatment

01:20:21.489 --> 01:20:26.210
and prevention. And yeah, I agree. I still view

01:20:26.210 --> 01:20:27.789
we're not going to arrest our way out of it.

01:20:27.789 --> 01:20:31.550
You can't throw everybody in prison and that's

01:20:31.550 --> 01:20:32.989
not going to help. You're still going to have

01:20:32.989 --> 01:20:36.909
people addicted. So we need to have it needs

01:20:36.909 --> 01:20:40.310
to be a three pronged approach. You're going

01:20:40.310 --> 01:20:42.270
to have to fight the battle on three fronts.

01:20:42.949 --> 01:20:46.689
Right now, we just seem to be all as a society

01:20:46.689 --> 01:20:52.149
focused on let's just arrest people and throw.

01:20:52.510 --> 01:20:54.590
lock them up and throw away the key, that's not

01:20:54.590 --> 01:20:57.630
going to solve the problem. If only we had a

01:20:57.630 --> 01:21:02.010
book by a really kind, compassionate person that

01:21:02.010 --> 01:21:05.470
would create a religion of empathy. We could

01:21:05.470 --> 01:21:07.350
call it Christianity or something. We could work

01:21:07.350 --> 01:21:14.949
on that. Yeah, well, the problem is that I think

01:21:14.949 --> 01:21:19.960
the word Christianity does not really... for

01:21:19.960 --> 01:21:23.000
the most part, convey in the meaning that it

01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:25.380
really should. There's a lot of Christians in

01:21:25.380 --> 01:21:29.579
name only, okay? Yeah, 100%. I agree. I think

01:21:29.579 --> 01:21:32.359
I've said this. I actually kind of made a picture

01:21:32.359 --> 01:21:35.680
the other day because there's that magnet that

01:21:35.680 --> 01:21:37.199
people put on their cars around this time of

01:21:37.199 --> 01:21:39.079
year, and it says, keep Christ in Christmas.

01:21:39.500 --> 01:21:42.300
And I changed it to say, keep Christ in Christianity,

01:21:42.439 --> 01:21:45.199
because I think that's far more important right

01:21:45.199 --> 01:21:52.869
now. True. That's a good... Well, we've been

01:21:52.869 --> 01:21:55.770
talking about the opioid crisis, and we could

01:21:55.770 --> 01:21:58.050
talk for hours more on this, but I want to transition

01:21:58.050 --> 01:22:01.329
to what you're working on now. The same predatory

01:22:01.329 --> 01:22:03.409
practice, and ironically, I just had a conversation

01:22:03.409 --> 01:22:05.289
with a filmmaker yesterday, a friend of mine,

01:22:05.369 --> 01:22:09.010
who is kind of, again, in a way, whistleblowing

01:22:09.010 --> 01:22:12.369
the fact that our public pensions, you know,

01:22:12.369 --> 01:22:15.430
city and county and states are being used by

01:22:15.430 --> 01:22:18.229
private equity companies and being pilfered.

01:22:18.439 --> 01:22:20.539
And these are funding a lot of these things.

01:22:21.039 --> 01:22:23.420
So you've got drug companies. You've also got,

01:22:23.500 --> 01:22:24.960
as we talked, the other areas of healthcare.

01:22:25.680 --> 01:22:28.460
How did the world of nursing homes come on your

01:22:28.460 --> 01:22:32.520
radar? And let's kind of unpack that. Yeah. So

01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:36.319
I know just like a lot of things by happenstance,

01:22:36.359 --> 01:22:41.640
coming out of the Purdue case in 2007, a whistleblower

01:22:41.640 --> 01:22:47.989
attorney came to Roanoke, Virginia. to meet and

01:22:47.989 --> 01:22:50.390
said they had a case against Abbott Laboratories,

01:22:50.390 --> 01:22:56.829
another pharmaceutical giant. And the case involved

01:22:56.829 --> 01:23:01.630
Abbott Laboratories marketing its anti -epileptic

01:23:01.630 --> 01:23:06.170
drug Depakote to nursing homes for the treatment

01:23:06.170 --> 01:23:11.609
of agitation and aggression in dementia patients

01:23:11.609 --> 01:23:15.430
in nursing homes. Well, it was completely not

01:23:15.430 --> 01:23:19.960
approved for that. And one of its depakote side

01:23:19.960 --> 01:23:24.640
effects is somnolence. And so, of course, if

01:23:24.640 --> 01:23:28.720
you give an elderly patient in a nursing home

01:23:28.720 --> 01:23:32.520
who has dementia something that's going to put

01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:37.920
them to sleep, they will be less aggressive and

01:23:37.920 --> 01:23:41.140
less agitated. And so that's what they were marketing

01:23:41.140 --> 01:23:46.010
the drug for at that point. So that was my kind

01:23:46.010 --> 01:23:48.550
of my first foray into the nursing home world.

01:23:48.649 --> 01:23:51.609
And it was like one of those, oh, OK, I see what

01:23:51.609 --> 01:23:54.909
they're doing. Pharmaceutical companies in the

01:23:54.909 --> 01:23:59.970
opioid business preyed on people who were prone

01:23:59.970 --> 01:24:02.810
to addiction. And nobody's going to listen to

01:24:02.810 --> 01:24:05.229
an addict because they can be they're vilified.

01:24:05.489 --> 01:24:08.850
Right. OK, so now they're coming into nursing

01:24:08.850 --> 01:24:13.329
homes and preying on these elderly people with

01:24:13.329 --> 01:24:15.560
dementia. And who's going to listen to a dementia

01:24:15.560 --> 01:24:18.239
person? They're not in their right mind. And

01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:22.000
so they go after these people who are marginalized,

01:24:22.220 --> 01:24:28.300
who have basically no voice and prey upon them

01:24:28.300 --> 01:24:34.279
to make money. And so, you know, we did that.

01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:38.840
We investigated that case for a couple of years

01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:41.720
and got it to the point where we had criminal

01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:47.779
and civil. It was a $1 .5 billion total settlement,

01:24:47.840 --> 01:24:50.220
which at the time was, I think we believe was

01:24:50.220 --> 01:24:53.500
the largest single drug settlement in history.

01:24:54.520 --> 01:24:57.220
And we also recommend prosecution of the top

01:24:57.220 --> 01:24:59.579
executive. And I got shot down at the highest,

01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:02.720
predictably at the highest levels of the department.

01:25:04.739 --> 01:25:08.720
And so that was my first entree into the nursing

01:25:08.720 --> 01:25:12.359
home world and seeing, you know, kind of what.

01:25:13.039 --> 01:25:15.960
What those large companies were doing to vulnerable

01:25:15.960 --> 01:25:19.779
people kind of got, you know, sparked the outrage

01:25:19.779 --> 01:25:23.640
in me. And then in the midst of that investigation,

01:25:23.979 --> 01:25:29.699
I got a colleague at the Health and Human Services

01:25:29.699 --> 01:25:34.300
Office of General Counsel sent me a survey report

01:25:34.300 --> 01:25:37.220
on a nursing home in far southwestern Virginia.

01:25:37.840 --> 01:25:40.640
That was over 200 pages long. And basically she

01:25:40.640 --> 01:25:43.439
said, you need to take a look at this. And I

01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:46.359
read it and I was like appalled at the treatment

01:25:46.359 --> 01:25:49.560
of the residents in that facility. And I said,

01:25:50.859 --> 01:25:52.659
you know, I don't know how to do these cases,

01:25:52.699 --> 01:25:54.739
but we got to do something. So I opened up a

01:25:54.739 --> 01:25:58.300
criminal investigation of that, that nursing

01:25:58.300 --> 01:26:02.159
home, which was owned by someone who lived in

01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:06.199
Miami, an investor, kind of like a similar to

01:26:06.199 --> 01:26:09.649
private equity, but on a smaller level, individual

01:26:09.649 --> 01:26:14.710
level. I think what happens is that they put

01:26:14.710 --> 01:26:16.909
together a package of nursing homes. They make

01:26:16.909 --> 01:26:19.170
them investment opportunities for individual

01:26:19.170 --> 01:26:22.529
investors. And so you can buy into four or five

01:26:22.529 --> 01:26:25.409
or six nursing homes at different locations.

01:26:26.029 --> 01:26:29.909
So this was a guy in Miami who was like a private

01:26:29.909 --> 01:26:34.369
investor. And he had one of the operations officers

01:26:34.369 --> 01:26:38.979
who lived in Ohio. Columbus, Ohio. And so it

01:26:38.979 --> 01:26:43.000
was like this. And the management office was

01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:46.060
in Miami where they paid the bills and collected

01:26:46.060 --> 01:26:49.680
the money and all that. And so here we have this

01:26:49.680 --> 01:26:53.539
nursing home in a very rural area, small town

01:26:53.539 --> 01:26:58.819
in southwestern Virginia. And the residents are

01:26:58.819 --> 01:27:01.680
getting these horrific pressure sores. They're

01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:07.649
not being bathed. Their hair is not being cut.

01:27:07.789 --> 01:27:09.449
Their nails aren't being, I mean, it's just like,

01:27:09.449 --> 01:27:13.430
like they're living, it's unreal. And so I got

01:27:13.430 --> 01:27:17.130
to look at, I got to read patient records and

01:27:17.130 --> 01:27:20.170
reports and look at photos and, you know, all

01:27:20.170 --> 01:27:26.310
those horrors that, you know, sparked outrage

01:27:26.310 --> 01:27:30.470
in me. And so we investigated that case and it

01:27:30.470 --> 01:27:32.409
took a long time because those cases are very

01:27:32.409 --> 01:27:38.569
difficult. We ended up using the racketeering

01:27:38.569 --> 01:27:42.930
statute as a means of grabbing the guy in Miami

01:27:42.930 --> 01:27:48.909
and the operations officer in Ohio because they

01:27:48.909 --> 01:27:52.869
have plausible deniability. I'm not there. I'm

01:27:52.869 --> 01:27:55.210
not there every day. I come in once every quarter

01:27:55.210 --> 01:27:58.590
and check things out. I rely on the staff at

01:27:58.590 --> 01:28:02.109
the facility. But at the same time, wait a minute.

01:28:02.229 --> 01:28:05.029
No, you're calling the shots in terms of budget.

01:28:05.489 --> 01:28:09.409
And when the facility calls and says, oh, we

01:28:09.409 --> 01:28:11.369
need to buy washcloths. And you tell them no,

01:28:11.470 --> 01:28:14.029
because that's out of the budget. Or they call

01:28:14.029 --> 01:28:15.869
and say, we need to hire a couple more people

01:28:15.869 --> 01:28:17.909
because we have nobody to work on weekends. And

01:28:17.909 --> 01:28:20.329
you say, no, you've got to be held responsible

01:28:20.329 --> 01:28:23.069
some way for that. So we use the racketeering

01:28:23.069 --> 01:28:27.029
statute in that case. But that kind of, again,

01:28:27.250 --> 01:28:32.210
was. You know, looking at those records, I mean,

01:28:32.229 --> 01:28:35.229
I tend when I do a case, I tend to get into the

01:28:35.229 --> 01:28:38.470
weeds. I tend to look, you know, at the evidence.

01:28:38.529 --> 01:28:40.770
I tend to read the statements, the witness statements

01:28:40.770 --> 01:28:44.050
and read the patient records and all that. So

01:28:44.050 --> 01:28:47.789
that gave me a kind of an education in how nursing

01:28:47.789 --> 01:28:50.750
homes work and the finances involved and how

01:28:50.750 --> 01:28:54.189
how the finances can be controlled by an outside

01:28:54.189 --> 01:28:56.970
party that's interested only in making money.

01:28:59.529 --> 01:29:02.250
The facility itself and the residents are left

01:29:02.250 --> 01:29:11.270
basically to rot. So after doing that case, fast

01:29:11.270 --> 01:29:16.329
forward to, hey, I retired in 2022. All of a

01:29:16.329 --> 01:29:18.770
sudden, Dope Sick was out and I was getting all

01:29:18.770 --> 01:29:21.949
these requests to be on, you know, podcasts and

01:29:21.949 --> 01:29:25.609
interviews. And so this filmmaker out of Los

01:29:25.609 --> 01:29:29.699
Angeles named Susie Singer Carter had. had an

01:29:29.699 --> 01:29:31.859
experience with her mother who was a dementia

01:29:31.859 --> 01:29:35.100
patient that she was the main caregiver for,

01:29:35.300 --> 01:29:38.939
contacted me to be on her podcast, but not to

01:29:38.939 --> 01:29:42.840
talk about Purdue specifically, but to talk about

01:29:42.840 --> 01:29:45.859
the Abbott case. So I did that. I went on her

01:29:45.859 --> 01:29:48.520
podcast talking mostly about the Abbott case.

01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:53.239
And then she, after that, she reached out to

01:29:53.239 --> 01:29:55.539
me again and said, hey, I'm having issues with

01:29:55.539 --> 01:29:58.920
the nursing home. My mom, you know. Can you give

01:29:58.920 --> 01:30:04.859
me any guidance? So I started, I tried to help

01:30:04.859 --> 01:30:07.680
her find an attorney to represent her and her

01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:12.840
mom out in Los Angeles. And I also started just

01:30:12.840 --> 01:30:14.939
kind of walking her through what I knew of the

01:30:14.939 --> 01:30:17.319
process and what her mom was going through and

01:30:17.319 --> 01:30:20.640
the root of the problems, basically a neglect

01:30:20.640 --> 01:30:25.810
and abuse issue. pressure sore, stage four pressure

01:30:25.810 --> 01:30:29.289
sore that went unreported and, you know, hospitalizations

01:30:29.289 --> 01:30:33.090
and all that. And, you know, we got to the point

01:30:33.090 --> 01:30:36.909
where she was having a difficulty getting an

01:30:36.909 --> 01:30:39.789
attorney to agree to take the case. And we can

01:30:39.789 --> 01:30:43.810
talk about the whys of that in a little bit.

01:30:44.210 --> 01:30:46.590
And I just said, hey, wait a minute, you know,

01:30:46.649 --> 01:30:51.210
here's the problem. Elderly people with dementia

01:30:51.210 --> 01:30:54.550
in nursing homes, it's difficult for attorneys

01:30:54.550 --> 01:30:57.609
to see the value of a case that involves neglect

01:30:57.609 --> 01:30:59.630
and abuse of those people because there's no

01:30:59.630 --> 01:31:01.930
lost wages and there's no medical bills. The

01:31:01.930 --> 01:31:04.149
bills are being paid for by government programs.

01:31:04.550 --> 01:31:07.170
And those are usually the two main things for

01:31:07.170 --> 01:31:15.210
valuing a case by a lawyer. But the damages here

01:31:15.210 --> 01:31:17.430
are the pain and suffering because it's horrific.

01:31:18.920 --> 01:31:23.020
pain and suffering, not only to your mom, but

01:31:23.020 --> 01:31:25.920
to the family, having to witness what's going

01:31:25.920 --> 01:31:28.560
on. And I said, you're a filmmaker, start taking

01:31:28.560 --> 01:31:33.000
videos, show a day in the life, show what's happening

01:31:33.000 --> 01:31:37.260
to your mom. So she did that. And that ultimately

01:31:37.260 --> 01:31:40.779
convinced an attorney to take the case, helped

01:31:40.779 --> 01:31:44.020
convince an attorney to take the case. And then

01:31:44.890 --> 01:31:47.050
When her mom finally passed, we were just having

01:31:47.050 --> 01:31:49.970
a conversation after kind of an aftermath conversation.

01:31:50.130 --> 01:31:52.770
And it was this discussion about how the system,

01:31:52.829 --> 01:31:56.569
this is really a system problem. Her mom was

01:31:56.569 --> 01:32:00.670
the victim of a system that rewards understaffing,

01:32:00.670 --> 01:32:04.569
rewards neglect, has very little accountability

01:32:04.569 --> 01:32:09.729
for things that are, again, you know, flashback

01:32:09.729 --> 01:32:12.310
to Purdue. There's very little individual accountability

01:32:12.310 --> 01:32:16.479
for. Those kinds of things on the part of owners

01:32:16.479 --> 01:32:21.079
and people making money off of it. How do we

01:32:21.079 --> 01:32:27.060
change that system? So the thought I had was

01:32:27.060 --> 01:32:30.720
I worked all these cases. I spent hours and hours

01:32:30.720 --> 01:32:33.319
working these individual cases and nothing seems

01:32:33.319 --> 01:32:36.060
to change in terms of the system. It just keeps

01:32:36.060 --> 01:32:39.260
getting worse. Maybe we need to go to the public

01:32:39.260 --> 01:32:42.970
and educate them. Maybe we need to do it where

01:32:42.970 --> 01:32:44.510
there's a public get their information these

01:32:44.510 --> 01:32:48.630
days. It's film, YouTube, podcasts. They don't

01:32:48.630 --> 01:32:52.649
read for the most part. They don't watch traditional

01:32:52.649 --> 01:32:57.090
television. Nobody watches CNN anymore, those

01:32:57.090 --> 01:32:59.710
kind of shows. You got a whole new generation

01:32:59.710 --> 01:33:01.649
that gets their information a different way.

01:33:02.130 --> 01:33:05.449
So we decided, let's try to reach that next generation

01:33:05.449 --> 01:33:10.210
with a documentary. And so that's how we just...

01:33:10.300 --> 01:33:13.359
came onto the production of No Country for Old

01:33:13.359 --> 01:33:16.840
People, which is currently a three -part docuseries

01:33:16.840 --> 01:33:23.060
streaming on Amazon, with the thought of we need

01:33:23.060 --> 01:33:27.520
to let the public know, especially the next generation

01:33:27.520 --> 01:33:29.840
who are going to inherit the problems, especially

01:33:29.840 --> 01:33:33.720
of aging, because there are so many of us who

01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:38.600
are aging right now. The next generation are

01:33:38.600 --> 01:33:42.520
the ones that get to figure out how to take care

01:33:42.520 --> 01:33:47.520
of us and who need to know what's going on and

01:33:47.520 --> 01:33:49.920
what the problems are and what the root of the

01:33:49.920 --> 01:33:55.460
problems are. So that's the thought of let's

01:33:55.460 --> 01:33:58.800
do this documentary and whatever follows on to

01:33:58.800 --> 01:34:00.939
that, we're trying to figure out what to do next.

01:34:02.920 --> 01:34:05.460
in that area but how do you convince people and

01:34:05.460 --> 01:34:08.539
and just not it's not only uh with nursing homes

01:34:08.539 --> 01:34:10.300
but it's probably with a lot of other issues

01:34:10.300 --> 01:34:15.260
that our generation is handing a whole bunch

01:34:15.260 --> 01:34:19.699
of problems on to the next generation we need

01:34:19.699 --> 01:34:23.399
to somehow prepare them for those problems well

01:34:23.399 --> 01:34:26.619
i think what you decided to do was i i agree

01:34:26.619 --> 01:34:28.840
100 the right way and i'm actually working on

01:34:28.840 --> 01:34:32.270
a tv uh adaptation of my last book to do the

01:34:32.270 --> 01:34:34.170
same thing i think the way that you really get

01:34:34.170 --> 01:34:35.789
to the hearts and minds is you got to do it through

01:34:35.789 --> 01:34:38.649
the screen that is where we all are transfixed

01:34:38.649 --> 01:34:41.229
these days and get people to understand that's

01:34:41.229 --> 01:34:45.109
what dope sick did so so well was it wasn't just

01:34:45.109 --> 01:34:48.449
portraying the corruption and the the dogmatic

01:34:48.449 --> 01:34:51.329
nature of the way Your team was pursuing the

01:34:51.329 --> 01:34:55.409
case, but also the human stories, you know, the

01:34:55.409 --> 01:34:58.350
doctor that got addicted, the girl that almost

01:34:58.350 --> 01:35:00.710
made it out and didn't in the end. I mean, just

01:35:00.710 --> 01:35:03.649
these, you know, the connection. Johan Hari says

01:35:03.649 --> 01:35:06.229
the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety. The

01:35:06.229 --> 01:35:08.609
opposite of addiction is connection. And you

01:35:08.609 --> 01:35:10.750
see that when these families come together, people

01:35:10.750 --> 01:35:12.770
start healing, all these communities come together.

01:35:13.149 --> 01:35:16.229
And then the converse is also true. The more

01:35:16.229 --> 01:35:18.770
you divide, the more you prey upon people for

01:35:18.770 --> 01:35:22.010
your own personal gain, the more we start falling

01:35:22.010 --> 01:35:24.510
apart. And I think that the documentary world

01:35:24.510 --> 01:35:27.289
especially is doing such a great job of that

01:35:27.289 --> 01:35:30.630
at the moment. So we talked about, again, this

01:35:30.630 --> 01:35:34.329
horrendous predatory element when it came to

01:35:34.329 --> 01:35:38.060
Purdue. Talk to me about the nursing. nursing

01:35:38.060 --> 01:35:40.399
facility world because i mean i think you did

01:35:40.399 --> 01:35:42.159
a good job in the documentary of saying look

01:35:42.159 --> 01:35:44.020
it's not the nurses there are some bad nurses

01:35:44.020 --> 01:35:47.380
i've seen them as a paramedic i've been to awful

01:35:47.380 --> 01:35:50.619
awful nursing homes my grandmother was in one

01:35:50.619 --> 01:35:53.039
in england that we paid or she paid you know

01:35:53.039 --> 01:35:57.439
her um my granddad left the money but a lot of

01:35:57.439 --> 01:35:59.800
money but she was treated so well but they were

01:35:59.800 --> 01:36:02.180
just very very lucky to have the the money for

01:36:02.180 --> 01:36:06.149
that and then my brother -in -law's mother She

01:36:06.149 --> 01:36:08.229
had the exact sores that you're talking about,

01:36:08.310 --> 01:36:12.649
and she ended up passing away. So you're very

01:36:12.649 --> 01:36:15.109
deliberate in saying, look, it's not the nurses

01:36:15.109 --> 01:36:17.930
specifically, not the staff. It's the understaffing,

01:36:17.930 --> 01:36:19.550
which we're seeing in the first responder professions

01:36:19.550 --> 01:36:22.430
and the mismanagement of cities and counties

01:36:22.430 --> 01:36:24.409
and fire chiefs and police chiefs at the moment.

01:36:24.829 --> 01:36:28.949
So parallel that with the nursing world that

01:36:28.949 --> 01:36:34.899
you were seeing in these homes. Yeah. It's all

01:36:34.899 --> 01:36:37.979
about cutting costs. Okay, so in nursing homes,

01:36:38.300 --> 01:36:42.319
most of the money, 70 % or more, comes from the

01:36:42.319 --> 01:36:46.239
government. It's mostly Medicaid for long -term

01:36:46.239 --> 01:36:52.340
care and Medicare for the rehabilitation for

01:36:52.340 --> 01:36:56.760
the short -term care. So the companies that run

01:36:56.760 --> 01:36:58.300
nursing homes, that's where their money's coming

01:36:58.300 --> 01:37:02.079
from. And it's a fixed amount, right? It's not...

01:37:02.690 --> 01:37:04.750
We'll do more service and we'll get paid. It's

01:37:04.750 --> 01:37:08.010
a per diem amount that's fixed. So how do you

01:37:08.010 --> 01:37:10.689
maximize profit? Well, the only way you maximize

01:37:10.689 --> 01:37:13.189
profit in that kind of a financial environment

01:37:13.189 --> 01:37:17.930
is to reduce costs. What's your biggest cost

01:37:17.930 --> 01:37:20.789
in a nursing home? Your biggest cost in a nursing

01:37:20.789 --> 01:37:23.970
home is labor. So if you're going to make maximize,

01:37:24.170 --> 01:37:27.109
you know, if you're going to do optimize and

01:37:27.109 --> 01:37:30.409
maximize your profit is you cut labor. Okay.

01:37:31.279 --> 01:37:36.680
And so labor means staffing. And so the more

01:37:36.680 --> 01:37:40.340
you cut staffing, the less hands -on care you

01:37:40.340 --> 01:37:42.920
have for nursing home residents. And let's face

01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:44.859
it, the reason they're in the nursing home in

01:37:44.859 --> 01:37:47.899
the first place is because they need 24 -7 hands

01:37:47.899 --> 01:37:51.859
-on care. You cut back that hands -on care, you

01:37:51.859 --> 01:37:57.500
have delays in answering call bells. You have

01:37:57.500 --> 01:38:02.369
delays in providing sort of basic hygiene. You

01:38:02.369 --> 01:38:05.810
have delays in a lot of the residents cannot

01:38:05.810 --> 01:38:10.090
move about themselves. So they have to be helped

01:38:10.090 --> 01:38:14.909
up, helped out of bed, helped and put into a

01:38:14.909 --> 01:38:18.329
wheelchair maybe or help to the bathroom. You

01:38:18.329 --> 01:38:20.609
cut out the staffing to do all that. Then you

01:38:20.609 --> 01:38:23.250
have people who are basically end up just laying

01:38:23.250 --> 01:38:29.239
in one place for most of the time. with no kind

01:38:29.239 --> 01:38:36.460
of mental or emotional stimulation. And they

01:38:36.460 --> 01:38:40.119
develop illnesses. They become dehydrated. They

01:38:40.119 --> 01:38:43.579
become malnourished. If you don't have enough

01:38:43.579 --> 01:38:48.579
staff to help them eat, they develop pressure

01:38:48.579 --> 01:38:52.729
sores. They develop infections. uh because you

01:38:52.729 --> 01:38:56.489
don't have enough staff to provide hygiene and

01:38:56.489 --> 01:39:02.010
sanitation and help them move around and you

01:39:02.010 --> 01:39:05.029
know you get from there you go into sepsis and

01:39:05.029 --> 01:39:10.189
from sepsis you go to death and you know i i

01:39:10.189 --> 01:39:12.890
know it's very easy to say well they're you know

01:39:12.890 --> 01:39:14.850
they're old people and they're at the end of

01:39:14.850 --> 01:39:16.590
their life anyway and they've already lived their

01:39:16.590 --> 01:39:24.500
lives but One of the people that spoke in the

01:39:24.500 --> 01:39:29.020
docuseries says, you know, it's not necessarily

01:39:29.020 --> 01:39:36.359
dying, it's how you die. And to be neglected

01:39:36.359 --> 01:39:41.020
and have pressure sores and be malnourished,

01:39:41.140 --> 01:39:46.439
not fed and dehydrated, those are all forms of

01:39:46.439 --> 01:39:49.720
torture. And none of us. I don't care how old

01:39:49.720 --> 01:39:52.659
we are, how long we've lived our lives, how well

01:39:52.659 --> 01:39:57.520
we lived our lives. None of us deserve to die

01:39:57.520 --> 01:40:05.319
while being tortured. And so that business model

01:40:05.319 --> 01:40:10.659
of understaffing is what leads to that kind of

01:40:10.659 --> 01:40:18.569
treatment. You know, it is what is really happening

01:40:18.569 --> 01:40:21.250
is in the large corporations and the private

01:40:21.250 --> 01:40:25.489
equity groups that are that are starting to take

01:40:25.489 --> 01:40:28.470
over nursing homes. And I'm not and it's just

01:40:28.470 --> 01:40:31.510
not private equity as sort of the formal business

01:40:31.510 --> 01:40:35.130
model. It's a private equity model that is being

01:40:35.130 --> 01:40:39.470
adopted by corporations and individuals. It's

01:40:39.470 --> 01:40:43.960
not necessarily they're not necessarily. private

01:40:43.960 --> 01:40:47.420
equity per se, but they've got that model. But

01:40:47.420 --> 01:40:51.880
the model is to take out as much money as fast

01:40:51.880 --> 01:40:56.640
as you can. And the way you do that and keep

01:40:56.640 --> 01:40:59.000
the flow of money coming from the government

01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:02.319
at the same level is to create what are called

01:41:02.319 --> 01:41:07.520
related entities. So a good many of the nursing

01:41:07.520 --> 01:41:13.929
homes that are in the private equity model, building,

01:41:13.929 --> 01:41:18.869
the real estate is held by another company. They

01:41:18.869 --> 01:41:21.529
have other aspects of the business, like a management

01:41:21.529 --> 01:41:25.590
company that runs the accounts receivable, takes

01:41:25.590 --> 01:41:27.909
in the payments from the government, pays the

01:41:27.909 --> 01:41:33.930
bills. That's another separate entity, but all

01:41:33.930 --> 01:41:36.390
of these other entities are all owned by the

01:41:36.390 --> 01:41:41.060
same either corporate or individual person. And

01:41:41.060 --> 01:41:43.560
all they're doing is moving the money from the

01:41:43.560 --> 01:41:47.260
nursing home into these other entities. The rent

01:41:47.260 --> 01:41:50.399
that the real estate company charges is often

01:41:50.399 --> 01:41:53.260
inflated. The management company is charging

01:41:53.260 --> 01:41:56.680
a pretty hefty fee just to run the bills and

01:41:56.680 --> 01:41:59.539
to pay, you know, issue checks to pay bills.

01:42:00.840 --> 01:42:04.560
Sometimes they own the physical therapy company.

01:42:04.659 --> 01:42:09.020
Sometimes they own the staffing company to bring

01:42:09.020 --> 01:42:12.979
in visiting nurses. But they're taking money

01:42:12.979 --> 01:42:15.720
out. I think there are some studies that have

01:42:15.720 --> 01:42:18.760
been done, two studies that have been done that

01:42:18.760 --> 01:42:23.100
show that 63 % of the profits that nursing homes

01:42:23.100 --> 01:42:25.939
make are being funneled out. They call it tunneled

01:42:25.939 --> 01:42:31.079
out to related party entities. I mean, that's

01:42:31.079 --> 01:42:35.380
63 % of the profit. So what they show to the

01:42:35.380 --> 01:42:39.270
government is We're not making any money or we're

01:42:39.270 --> 01:42:41.529
losing money, and therefore you need to increase

01:42:41.529 --> 01:42:45.670
how much you pay us. But what's hidden underneath

01:42:45.670 --> 01:42:48.329
is the fact that they're pulling money out secretly

01:42:48.329 --> 01:42:53.829
into these related entities. In order to, you

01:42:53.829 --> 01:42:55.310
know, if they're private equity, they will need

01:42:55.310 --> 01:42:58.890
to do a return on investment to their private

01:42:58.890 --> 01:43:01.989
equity shareholders. Or if they're just greedy

01:43:01.989 --> 01:43:04.189
corporations or businessmen, they're just taking

01:43:04.189 --> 01:43:07.949
out the money for themselves. That business model

01:43:07.949 --> 01:43:14.729
is being allowed to go forward by CMS, the Centers

01:43:14.729 --> 01:43:16.930
for Medicare and Medicaid Services, an agency

01:43:16.930 --> 01:43:19.510
of the Health and Human Services Department,

01:43:19.789 --> 01:43:26.729
because of the lax oversight, the very weak reporting

01:43:26.729 --> 01:43:30.109
that they require, and the lack of enforcement.

01:43:30.449 --> 01:43:33.449
And again, so the same pattern, our government

01:43:33.449 --> 01:43:36.819
agency that's supposed to be the Watchdog over

01:43:36.819 --> 01:43:41.180
that is kind of is complicit, is allowing it

01:43:41.180 --> 01:43:44.979
to happen. And it's all about making as much

01:43:44.979 --> 01:43:50.279
money as you can. And you will see the depersonalization

01:43:50.279 --> 01:43:53.600
of nursing home residents in corporate books

01:43:53.600 --> 01:43:56.420
and records, financial records. They're not called

01:43:56.420 --> 01:43:58.880
residents or they're not called people. They're

01:43:58.880 --> 01:44:02.760
called beds. OK, so completely depersonalized

01:44:02.760 --> 01:44:07.500
and just as. uh people addicted to opioids are

01:44:07.500 --> 01:44:11.239
stigmatized and you know just written off as

01:44:11.239 --> 01:44:13.579
addicts well these are just beds in a facility

01:44:13.579 --> 01:44:16.760
they're not really people that's again the corporate

01:44:16.760 --> 01:44:20.659
part of the corporate model i mean you just see

01:44:20.659 --> 01:44:22.880
the same blueprint no matter what industry we're

01:44:22.880 --> 01:44:25.819
talking about and i think you know where it really

01:44:25.819 --> 01:44:29.359
kills me is when areas need funding people say

01:44:29.359 --> 01:44:30.880
oh we don't have the money there's not enough

01:44:30.880 --> 01:44:32.800
oh you want to raise taxes and it's not even

01:44:32.800 --> 01:44:35.649
about that If you look at the nation as we sit

01:44:35.649 --> 01:44:40.270
here now, we are 70 % overweight, of which 40

01:44:40.270 --> 01:44:43.810
plus percent is obese. So if you just simply

01:44:43.810 --> 01:44:47.430
actually valued the citizens and you put in programs

01:44:47.430 --> 01:44:50.149
like real food in schools and put PE programs

01:44:50.149 --> 01:44:53.810
back in and bolstered local farmers to grow clean

01:44:53.810 --> 01:44:57.050
food, you know, you would. turn that around and

01:44:57.050 --> 01:44:59.210
then you'd have all of this money to start putting

01:44:59.210 --> 01:45:01.510
in and then you know prisons and nursing homes

01:45:01.510 --> 01:45:04.050
and all these other places would not be as you

01:45:04.050 --> 01:45:07.289
know as uh overcrowded as they are and your first

01:45:07.289 --> 01:45:09.109
responders wouldn't be worked into the ground

01:45:09.109 --> 01:45:12.369
but it's if you have this model where that doesn't

01:45:12.369 --> 01:45:15.050
matter we're just we're just servants to the

01:45:15.050 --> 01:45:18.449
machine and you're just focused purely on profit

01:45:19.149 --> 01:45:21.149
This is just going to get worse and worse and

01:45:21.149 --> 01:45:23.970
worse. And my profession, if we don't change,

01:45:24.050 --> 01:45:25.909
if we don't stop working our men and women into

01:45:25.909 --> 01:45:28.930
the ground while our chiefs go home at five every

01:45:28.930 --> 01:45:31.890
night and don't care, then there will be no one

01:45:31.890 --> 01:45:34.869
when you call 911 anymore. There will be no doctors

01:45:34.869 --> 01:45:37.850
and nurses left to staff these facilities if

01:45:37.850 --> 01:45:40.850
we keep treating them this way. So I don't know

01:45:40.850 --> 01:45:43.689
how we can get to the point of enough is enough.

01:45:43.810 --> 01:45:45.770
And I think storytelling is a big part of that.

01:45:46.399 --> 01:45:50.880
But I mean, I don't think it's too dramatic to

01:45:50.880 --> 01:45:52.640
say that we're getting close to that point now.

01:45:53.819 --> 01:45:57.000
Yeah, I mean, you know, the other thing we document

01:45:57.000 --> 01:46:00.479
in No Country for Old People is what's called

01:46:00.479 --> 01:46:05.060
moral injury. And I'm sure you know in your profession

01:46:05.060 --> 01:46:10.539
that that's a real thing, right? You're told

01:46:10.539 --> 01:46:13.479
you can't do everything you feel like you need

01:46:13.479 --> 01:46:16.130
to do. because you're not given enough resources

01:46:16.130 --> 01:46:18.350
and you're not given enough support to do it

01:46:18.350 --> 01:46:20.729
and that's what's happening with our our health

01:46:20.729 --> 01:46:22.970
care workers not i think not just in nursing

01:46:22.970 --> 01:46:26.550
homes but across the board is that they're you

01:46:26.550 --> 01:46:30.390
know they're people go into those professions

01:46:30.390 --> 01:46:34.149
you know first responder um health care worker

01:46:34.149 --> 01:46:36.710
they go into that out of a sense of wanting to

01:46:36.710 --> 01:46:40.310
help people right and when you're not able to

01:46:40.310 --> 01:46:46.060
do that the way it should be done you have an

01:46:46.060 --> 01:46:48.760
injury. It's an, it's a moral injury. There's,

01:46:48.760 --> 01:46:52.220
there's, it affects you, right? You don't, you

01:46:52.220 --> 01:46:54.659
don't just walk away and say, Oh, I did what

01:46:54.659 --> 01:46:59.100
I could do. And, you know, so, you know, it has

01:46:59.100 --> 01:47:01.640
an impact on you emotionally and psychologically.

01:47:02.579 --> 01:47:06.739
And that's a real thing. And people, they, they,

01:47:06.739 --> 01:47:09.020
people are not going to, they're not, they're

01:47:09.020 --> 01:47:12.720
going to leave because they cannot take. the

01:47:12.720 --> 01:47:15.699
moral injury day in and day out. And that's kind

01:47:15.699 --> 01:47:19.739
of what's happening in nursing homes, in healthcare

01:47:19.739 --> 01:47:23.140
in general, with nurses in all kinds of different

01:47:23.140 --> 01:47:27.100
facilities and other caregivers. And it's what's

01:47:27.100 --> 01:47:29.659
happening with first responders. If you're not

01:47:29.659 --> 01:47:33.819
given the ability to do the job, you're there

01:47:33.819 --> 01:47:36.199
because you have a sense of duty and a sense

01:47:36.199 --> 01:47:38.800
of purpose. But if you cannot, if you're prevented

01:47:38.800 --> 01:47:41.979
from doing it the way it should be done, you're

01:47:41.979 --> 01:47:45.979
going to have some sort of an injury. I think

01:47:45.979 --> 01:47:47.659
the question that we need to ask ourselves is

01:47:47.659 --> 01:47:51.140
if we feel so deeply when we lose someone, the

01:47:51.140 --> 01:47:53.600
inability to save, whether it's lack of training,

01:47:53.699 --> 01:47:56.640
lack of resources, whatever the thing is, and

01:47:56.640 --> 01:48:01.579
that does affect us so deeply, why do these people

01:48:01.579 --> 01:48:03.539
that make these decisions that hundreds of thousands

01:48:03.539 --> 01:48:06.600
of people die not have moral injury? And it goes

01:48:06.600 --> 01:48:08.840
back to my question, are they fit to even be

01:48:08.840 --> 01:48:10.500
in that position in the first place? Because

01:48:10.500 --> 01:48:14.359
as a servant, we feel it so, so deeply. I can't

01:48:14.359 --> 01:48:17.319
even comprehend being at the head of a tobacco

01:48:17.319 --> 01:48:20.500
company, knowing that 8 million people or 6 million,

01:48:20.560 --> 01:48:24.340
excuse me, 6 or 8 million people around the world

01:48:24.340 --> 01:48:27.340
die annually from my product. And, you know,

01:48:27.380 --> 01:48:32.800
it doesn't bother me. That's hard to imagine,

01:48:33.039 --> 01:48:36.640
hard to fathom, right? It's hard to... There

01:48:36.640 --> 01:48:38.659
are people like that out there, but there are.

01:48:38.760 --> 01:48:41.300
And yeah, they shouldn't be. You know, one of

01:48:41.300 --> 01:48:44.159
the things about the case, the two cases that

01:48:44.159 --> 01:48:47.239
I did, both the Purdue case and the Abbott case,

01:48:47.399 --> 01:48:52.000
was that at least Health and Human Services Office

01:48:52.000 --> 01:48:55.859
of Counsel to the Inspector General has the ability

01:48:55.859 --> 01:49:00.220
to exclude people from basically Medicare and

01:49:00.220 --> 01:49:02.300
Medicaid. In essence, that excludes them from

01:49:02.300 --> 01:49:05.720
health care. So we had exclusions of the three

01:49:05.720 --> 01:49:08.180
top executives. They were no longer able to work

01:49:08.180 --> 01:49:11.680
in health care for a period of 12 years. And

01:49:11.680 --> 01:49:13.579
then we had an exclusion of the nursing home

01:49:13.579 --> 01:49:20.180
owner from Miami and the official from Ohio.

01:49:21.199 --> 01:49:23.739
I forgot how much she got excluded for, but he

01:49:23.739 --> 01:49:26.020
got excluded for like 50 years. So he was never

01:49:26.020 --> 01:49:28.460
going to be in the business, nursing home business

01:49:28.460 --> 01:49:33.229
again. And so, yeah, you know. Definitely had

01:49:33.229 --> 01:49:35.989
that sense. These guys don't, they shouldn't

01:49:35.989 --> 01:49:37.770
be doing this stuff. They shouldn't be in this

01:49:37.770 --> 01:49:39.810
business. And there's a, there is a mechanism,

01:49:39.970 --> 01:49:42.930
an administrative mechanism, at least in healthcare

01:49:42.930 --> 01:49:47.109
to, to do that. Again, it's getting the government,

01:49:47.149 --> 01:49:51.970
the agency to want to actually act on with that

01:49:51.970 --> 01:49:54.489
authority, actually utilize that authority, but

01:49:54.489 --> 01:49:59.170
it's there. So again, you know, it's like, you

01:49:59.170 --> 01:50:01.199
know, there's things you can do, but. even though

01:50:01.199 --> 01:50:03.140
you get knocked back and you're not able to do

01:50:03.140 --> 01:50:05.960
as much as you can, it's like, well, let's keep

01:50:05.960 --> 01:50:08.260
fighting. You got to keep fighting. Absolutely.

01:50:08.520 --> 01:50:10.579
A hundred percent. Well, I could talk to you

01:50:10.579 --> 01:50:12.920
for another two hours easily, but I know you've

01:50:12.920 --> 01:50:14.899
actually got to call Todd in a few minutes. So

01:50:14.899 --> 01:50:17.779
for people listening, where are the best places

01:50:17.779 --> 01:50:20.699
to find the documentary? And then if they want

01:50:20.699 --> 01:50:26.239
to reach out to you personally. Yeah. The documentary

01:50:26.239 --> 01:50:28.960
is on Amazon. It's called No Country for Old

01:50:28.960 --> 01:50:32.680
People, a nursing home expose. It's a three -part

01:50:32.680 --> 01:50:35.899
docuseries. I think it's also on Tubi. So if

01:50:35.899 --> 01:50:37.939
you don't have Amazon, you can go to Tubi and

01:50:37.939 --> 01:50:42.460
look up No Country for Old People. I'm on LinkedIn.

01:50:43.359 --> 01:50:46.560
I guess if you could, Rick Mountcastle on LinkedIn.

01:50:47.800 --> 01:50:55.060
I haven't checked it lately. Also on Facebook.

01:50:56.859 --> 01:51:00.939
So there are two places you can track me down

01:51:00.939 --> 01:51:08.819
at. So, yeah, happy to connect with anyone that

01:51:08.819 --> 01:51:13.020
wants to help move things forward. Well, I want

01:51:13.020 --> 01:51:14.859
to thank you so much. I mean, firstly, obviously,

01:51:14.960 --> 01:51:17.979
for what you have actually done for so many people,

01:51:18.020 --> 01:51:19.619
I mean, especially nationally with the Purdue

01:51:19.619 --> 01:51:22.369
case. I don't think people... would ever really

01:51:22.369 --> 01:51:25.789
comprehend the the ripple effect of the lives

01:51:25.789 --> 01:51:27.949
saved you know with with what you and your team

01:51:27.949 --> 01:51:29.909
did and obviously all the voices of that community

01:51:29.909 --> 01:51:33.390
too that stood up and then now with the the nursing

01:51:33.390 --> 01:51:36.210
home side as well so not only that though i just

01:51:36.210 --> 01:51:38.609
want to thank you for being you know one of the

01:51:38.609 --> 01:51:41.789
beacons of light because i completely believe

01:51:41.789 --> 01:51:45.409
that if we just have hope and we believe that

01:51:45.409 --> 01:51:47.710
every single one of us can be part of this fight

01:51:47.710 --> 01:51:50.659
and as you said whatever your skill set is I

01:51:50.659 --> 01:51:52.340
never thought that talking into a microphone

01:51:52.340 --> 01:51:53.859
would be something that I would do or write in

01:51:53.859 --> 01:51:56.380
books, but here we are. But yeah, just being

01:51:56.380 --> 01:51:58.619
part of that movement, saying, you know, just

01:51:58.619 --> 01:52:00.319
rolling up your sleeves and saying enough is

01:52:00.319 --> 01:52:03.000
enough. So I want to thank you so much for being

01:52:03.000 --> 01:52:05.220
so generous with your time today and coming on

01:52:05.220 --> 01:52:08.119
the Behind the Shield podcast. Hey, James, thank

01:52:08.119 --> 01:52:10.899
you for having me. And it was, I enjoyed it.

01:52:11.939 --> 01:52:15.000
And, you know, greetings to all your listeners.