WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.879 Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:03.700 my name's James Geering, and this week it is 00:00:03.700 --> 00:00:06.360 my absolute honor to welcome on the show former 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:10.199 British paratrooper and member of 22SAS, John 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:13.380 Graham. Now, John is also known as John Geddes, 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:16.420 the author of Spearhead Assault, about his time 00:00:16.420 --> 00:00:19.739 in the Falklands War, and Highway to Hell, working 00:00:19.739 --> 00:00:23.239 in Iraq as a military contractor. So we discuss 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:25.960 a host of topics, from his early life in the 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:30.170 UK, his journey into the military, Northern Ireland, 00:00:30.429 --> 00:00:33.329 the Battle of Goose Green, War in the Middle 00:00:33.329 --> 00:00:36.789 East, the world of military contracting, close 00:00:36.789 --> 00:00:40.329 protection, mental health, leadership, and so 00:00:40.329 --> 00:00:42.850 much more. Now, before we get to this incredible 00:00:42.850 --> 00:00:45.270 conversation, as I say every week, please just 00:00:45.270 --> 00:00:47.850 take a moment, go to whichever app you listen 00:00:47.850 --> 00:00:51.310 to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback 00:00:51.310 --> 00:00:55.250 and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating 00:00:55.250 --> 00:00:58.350 truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making 00:00:58.350 --> 00:01:01.630 it easier for others to find because this is 00:01:01.630 --> 00:01:06.390 a free library of almost 800 episodes now. So 00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:09.650 all I ask in return is that you help share these 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:12.530 incredible men and women's stories so I can get 00:01:12.530 --> 00:01:15.609 them to every single person on planet Earth who 00:01:15.609 --> 00:01:18.209 needs to hear them. So with that being said, 00:01:18.349 --> 00:01:42.099 I introduce to you... John Graham. Enjoy. Obviously, 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.140 you have Geddes out there, you have Graham. In 00:01:45.140 --> 00:01:47.400 2023, what do you like to be referred to these 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:55.709 days? Well, lots of writers have pen names, but 00:01:55.709 --> 00:02:01.969 I have an origin from the pen name. It was written 00:02:01.969 --> 00:02:07.469 by a friend of mine who did a book called CQB, 00:02:07.650 --> 00:02:12.889 Close Border Battle. And he wanted to mention 00:02:12.889 --> 00:02:14.930 me in the book. I mentioned all the way through 00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:19.099 that book. I was serving. serving soldier at 00:02:19.099 --> 00:02:24.020 the time with my own regiment and he asked me 00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:26.639 if he could name me by name and I'd rather as 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:30.460 a security measure not have my real name out 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:36.960 while I was with Britain SF so he said can I 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.400 call you another name I've got this great guy 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:43.840 who's dead now and he's a great friend of mine 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:50.550 great great great a mentor, and his name was 00:02:50.550 --> 00:02:53.189 Geddes. Can I call you John Geddes? I said, yeah, 00:02:53.210 --> 00:03:01.090 that's fine. So CQB came and went, and then we 00:03:01.090 --> 00:03:08.469 were contacted by a media outlet to would I like 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:16.689 to do a book on contracting in Iraq? And I said, 00:03:16.710 --> 00:03:23.189 yeah. And we decided to use for the genre, keep 00:03:23.189 --> 00:03:25.710 the name Geddes going, because that's associated 00:03:25.710 --> 00:03:29.629 with the same guy that's in CQB, you know? And 00:03:29.629 --> 00:03:33.789 maybe it made sense that way. Now, I don't have 00:03:33.789 --> 00:03:35.629 a security problem. I'm a civilian, just like 00:03:35.629 --> 00:03:38.909 everybody else. And, you know, everybody knows 00:03:38.909 --> 00:03:44.229 why, but I don't care. But the thing is, I get 00:03:44.229 --> 00:03:47.520 my own name out there, because that's my... real 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.539 life experience and uh the book name uh to to 00:03:52.539 --> 00:03:56.099 associate one book after the other and that makes 00:03:56.099 --> 00:03:59.979 sense so either or beautiful well that's already 00:03:59.979 --> 00:04:01.939 the intro we're already on the on the recording 00:04:01.939 --> 00:04:03.500 now so we'll leave that because that's a great 00:04:03.500 --> 00:04:06.500 start to break the ice with you um so for people 00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:08.979 listening where on planet earth are we finding 00:04:08.979 --> 00:04:13.939 you today uh this is my uh training training 00:04:13.939 --> 00:04:21.519 theater um It isn't a professional studio. I 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:25.199 have no courses on. I've trained contractors, 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.259 have done for a long, long time. We've turned 00:04:30.259 --> 00:04:36.860 out male and female, probably 1 ,500 contractors 00:04:36.860 --> 00:04:43.490 in the last 19 years, close to 20 years. And 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:47.509 proud of that fact. So this is my property. We 00:04:47.509 --> 00:04:53.089 won't get disturbed. It's a secure environment 00:04:53.089 --> 00:04:58.389 in as much as we won't be disturbed. And this 00:04:58.389 --> 00:05:06.149 is where I teach. And if I ever have a show like 00:05:06.149 --> 00:05:08.389 yours, which I'm seriously thinking about doing, 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:11.889 I'm learning all the time, and I quite fancy 00:05:11.889 --> 00:05:15.879 it. uh this is the kind of place i would do it 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:20.319 i mean i'm in here at the moment so uh i'm at 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.459 home brilliant well actually my part of my family 00:05:23.459 --> 00:05:25.600 is is born and bred in hereford it's funny that 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.139 obviously is the origin of um the sas as well 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:30.699 i want to start the very beginning of your timeline 00:05:30.699 --> 00:05:32.879 though before we get to your special forces career 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.800 tell me where you were born and tell me a little 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:37.660 bit about your family dynamic what your parents 00:05:37.660 --> 00:05:45.000 did and how many siblings yeah well um It's a 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:50.779 bit of a mixed bag. My parents, post -Second 00:05:50.779 --> 00:05:55.079 World War, my dad was in the Engineers and he 00:05:55.079 --> 00:06:04.339 fought in El Alamein in North Africa, campaigned 00:06:04.339 --> 00:06:07.279 with the Desert Rats, as they were known in them 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:13.000 days. And after the war, Opportunities in a newly 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.100 found state within the British Empire called 00:06:17.100 --> 00:06:23.379 Rhodesia was created. And great opportunity for 00:06:23.379 --> 00:06:29.220 people leaving the forces, making a new life 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:34.800 in a foreign land, foreign culture, and taking 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:38.939 their skills and procedures over there. He was 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:46.920 a builder. And him and his partner built huge 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.620 tracts of housing developments in a place called 00:06:50.620 --> 00:07:01.220 Zimbabwe. Sorry, Bulawayo, which was then Rhodesia, 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:08.000 is now Zimbabwe. And that was... My kids were 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:12.699 taken out of... England to Rhodesia, and I was 00:07:12.699 --> 00:07:19.160 born there. So I spent my infancy there. Dad 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:24.459 got, he was hit. During the war, he was wounded 00:07:24.459 --> 00:07:28.839 in action, and it was a closed head injury. And 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:32.079 we knew this all the way through our life. My 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:34.920 mother used to tell me about him. He died at 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:37.120 a very young age. He died when I was, he was 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:42.759 40, I was about 13. And he suffered a massive 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.180 brain hemorrhage and consequently had to give 00:07:47.180 --> 00:07:49.699 up the business. He got his share of the business 00:07:49.699 --> 00:07:55.360 out. My mother drove us all back to England and 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.319 started a new life back up north in Newcastle, 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:05.100 Newcastle upon Tyne. So that was my sort of immediate 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:08.959 origins then grew up. a Geordie lad up north 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:16.019 until 17, about 17 years old, I left home. When 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:19.620 I looked up, I think it was John Geddes. Rhodesia 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:22.420 came up, but it was, if I'm not mistaken, someone 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:24.180 who was involved with the Special Forces community, 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.100 but he was born in 1912. Was that the mentor 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:31.699 that your friend was talking about? Maybe, maybe. 00:08:31.819 --> 00:08:40.080 I never did identify him, to be fair. So I don't 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.700 know. Interesting. I'll send you what I found 00:08:42.700 --> 00:08:44.139 because when you look your name up, there's you 00:08:44.139 --> 00:08:46.980 and then there's this other obviously very well 00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:49.840 -decorated British military hero as well. So 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:51.460 I'll send that to you because maybe there's cross 00:08:51.460 --> 00:08:53.379 -pollination because I want to say he was involved 00:08:53.379 --> 00:08:55.039 in Rhodesia as well, which is really interesting. 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:02.240 I am old, but not that old. Well, obviously now 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.000 you're on the back end of your career, older 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.700 than your father was when you lost him. When 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:12.500 you look back now, let me back up one step. One 00:09:12.500 --> 00:09:14.980 of the myths that I bought into for a long time 00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:17.919 until I started interviewing so many people was 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:20.960 that. and this is not a myth, you know, the Vietnam 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:22.840 generation, I want to even ask you about the 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:24.820 Falklands, but certainly the Vietnam, you know, 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.139 they came back to being spat on and called baby 00:09:27.139 --> 00:09:29.740 killers, but the World War II generation seemed 00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:32.539 to be revered. But then when you kind of unpack 00:09:32.539 --> 00:09:34.659 that a little bit, yes, there were certain groups 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:37.559 that did come back to ticker tape parades, but 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:39.379 there were a lot of men and women that just came 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:41.759 home. That was it. And they didn't have this 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.340 great kind of... decompressing journey to offload 00:09:45.340 --> 00:09:49.019 what they'd seen and what they did. You were 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:52.000 up to 13. Did you get any glimpse of the impact 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.500 of your father's service for this country, whether 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:57.460 it was physically or mentally? Mostly through 00:09:57.460 --> 00:10:03.220 my mother, because he was pretty compromised. 00:10:04.259 --> 00:10:08.580 In them days, if you had a stroke, they just 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:12.990 put you to bed, you know? And he did have a massive 00:10:12.990 --> 00:10:20.370 stroke. My wife, Michelle, in her past sort of 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:27.009 NHS working, she was a stroke specialist. And 00:10:27.009 --> 00:10:31.409 talking to family members about the condition, 00:10:31.789 --> 00:10:37.090 drugs, physio these days, he would have been 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:39.710 up on his feet and survived it, you know, potentially. 00:10:40.920 --> 00:10:43.500 But in them days, you just went to bed. So he 00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:46.320 spent six years in bed deteriorating. And that 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:56.600 was most of my life up to about 13. So I knew 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:01.759 a very sick man. But through my mother, she talked 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:06.059 about him all the time, you know, and passed 00:11:06.059 --> 00:11:11.909 on everything she knew about his. uh career where 00:11:11.909 --> 00:11:17.509 he where he was what he did his his um his character 00:11:17.509 --> 00:11:23.850 his personality and um and and uh you know his 00:11:23.850 --> 00:11:28.909 humor and that all came came through uh and i 00:11:28.909 --> 00:11:34.809 feel i i knew him i knew him like i knew a brother 00:11:34.809 --> 00:11:41.149 or or or a father and um But actually, I didn't. 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:44.730 You know, I was way too young when he went sort 00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:49.210 of off grid, so to speak. Yeah, it's so important. 00:11:49.269 --> 00:11:51.210 We're losing so many of the World War II voices 00:11:51.210 --> 00:11:54.169 now. But the mental and physical costs of that 00:11:54.169 --> 00:11:56.370 conflict, I would argue, actually has contributed 00:11:56.370 --> 00:11:58.929 to a lot of the kind of multi -generational trauma. 00:11:59.710 --> 00:12:01.730 let's put us to some of the issues we struggle 00:12:01.730 --> 00:12:03.509 with today, you know, some of the addiction issues 00:12:03.509 --> 00:12:05.990 and homelessness. And, you know, we, we had all 00:12:05.990 --> 00:12:07.669 these men and women come back and they were like, 00:12:07.710 --> 00:12:08.990 all right, roll your sleeves up and let's get 00:12:08.990 --> 00:12:10.870 back to work. Well, there were a lot of men and 00:12:10.870 --> 00:12:13.570 women that were, you know, broken physically 00:12:13.570 --> 00:12:15.370 and mentally that needed that rehabilitation. 00:12:15.950 --> 00:12:18.389 But as you said, medicine just wasn't where it 00:12:18.389 --> 00:12:21.029 is today, where you're able to truly help them 00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:26.570 transition out. No. And, and also, but, you know, 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:32.279 Neighbourly support was there, even in those 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:35.580 days. They'd just gone through a second world 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:39.879 war and people helped each other all the time. 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.600 Helped each other physically, mentally, psychologically 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:47.539 to come to terms with it. It was a huge trauma 00:12:47.539 --> 00:12:53.419 for everybody. We got a taste of that coming 00:12:53.419 --> 00:12:57.460 back from the Falklands. you know, we had a street 00:12:57.460 --> 00:13:00.899 party for me, you know, brought tears to my eyes 00:13:00.899 --> 00:13:03.720 after a few beers, you know, and that again was 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.500 a, it's a release mechanism, it's a relief mechanism, 00:13:06.700 --> 00:13:12.980 isn't it? And a little street party, you know, 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:16.759 and it was fantastic. And what have I done to 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:18.539 deserve this? And all you can think about is 00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:22.500 people that didn't come back, you know, but life 00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:26.139 goes on. You know, like people die, people move 00:13:26.139 --> 00:13:30.440 on, you know. And all I can think about was my 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:34.759 next move, you know, into Special Forces. That 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:41.820 was my new focus. But we were welcomed, appreciated 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:46.419 in the media, welcomed, appreciated at home, 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:58.600 friends, family. Since after the contracting 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:06.779 in Iraq, I started training and I noticed a change 00:14:06.779 --> 00:14:12.440 in soldiers. I've lost count of the amount of 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:17.259 people we trained with, the people 1 ,000 yards 00:14:17.259 --> 00:14:19.980 there. It took me long enough to get over what 00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:28.679 I got out. But these people, you know, were still 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.340 carrying the trauma, you know. And this, doing 00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:37.299 the educational training we were delivering in 00:14:37.299 --> 00:14:43.399 the PFC world was therapy, you know. And, you 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:47.799 know, the hardest thing was to get them to talk 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:49.580 about themselves, talk about other things, talk 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:52.350 about other people. relax, communicate, smile, 00:14:52.570 --> 00:14:57.289 stick your hand out, you know, very hard. But 00:14:57.289 --> 00:15:00.330 by the end of the course, a lot more communication, 00:15:00.590 --> 00:15:03.730 because bodyguarding is all about communication, 00:15:03.830 --> 00:15:11.070 you know. And, you know, we like to think we've 00:15:11.070 --> 00:15:21.279 made quite a difference in our own way. And their 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.399 reception was completely different. You know, 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.460 the media reception was quite different. The 00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:33.299 local reception was quite different. Very, very, 00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:37.340 very polarized. You know, nothing united, nothing 00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:40.220 united. And that was the main difference between, 00:15:40.259 --> 00:15:49.500 I can see with Iraq, Afghanistan, and us. returning 00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:54.379 from the falcon islands you know uh even even 00:15:54.379 --> 00:15:57.360 in them in those days northern ireland you know 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:05.759 which was a dirty bloody war and uh um now you 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:10.039 know it's prosecute soldiers time you know anything 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:13.940 they can they can uh pull up against a soldier 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:16.899 who's in northern ireland you know fair game 00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:20.570 to the media Fair game for the apologists and 00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:23.289 fair game for the terrorists, you know, and nobody 00:16:23.289 --> 00:16:27.330 seems to care. This drives people into the psychological, 00:16:28.549 --> 00:16:34.149 the physical reception from people, media, drives 00:16:34.149 --> 00:16:39.629 people to despair, you know. You know, I'm sort 00:16:39.629 --> 00:16:42.909 of too old and mean now to worry about it, you 00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:47.659 know, but you see it with young people. I'm just 00:16:47.659 --> 00:16:50.179 not surprised. They've got so many problems these 00:16:50.179 --> 00:16:54.080 days. Just not surprised at all. But those are 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.100 the issues they need addressing. And then the 00:16:57.100 --> 00:16:59.019 rest will fall, the treatment will fall into 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:03.759 place. The rehousing will fall into place. Getting 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:08.319 people's minds and bodies together will fall 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:16.400 into place. And that's the way I'm feeling. I 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:47.339 look at it these days. Of course, they all know 00:17:47.339 --> 00:17:48.940 in their heart of hearts that they did good, 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.660 that they've got these stories of, you know, 00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:52.619 where they made a difference in that one village 00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:56.519 at that one time. But you were asked to go on 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:59.339 this mission with this, you know, flag on your 00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:02.160 shoulder. And then all of a sudden, the kind 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.220 of legs are cut from everyone. And there's a 00:18:04.220 --> 00:18:06.519 lot of people now that fought, whether it was 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.119 in, you know, as you said, Northern Ireland or 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:13.140 Falklands or beyond, that look back and go, okay. 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.099 Were we supposed to be there? What was the mission? 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:18.259 And why now, as you said, are some of our people 00:18:18.259 --> 00:18:21.039 even being betrayed by the organization that 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:25.519 they were fighting for? So what is your perception? 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:29.380 Because to me, it's a multifaceted issue, but 00:18:29.380 --> 00:18:32.000 leadership... is a big thing. And one observation 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.759 I made recently is a leader will unify people 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.519 during crisis and a tyrant will divide people 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.599 during crisis. And we've seen that a lot. So 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:43.599 what have you seen through your career? What 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.079 were the highs? What were the elements of good 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.180 leadership? And what are we seeing now in contrast? 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:58.119 Well, again, with the media, starting with mainstream 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:03.190 media, I have no time at all for mainstream media 00:19:03.190 --> 00:19:05.809 these days. I don't watch BBC. I don't watch 00:19:05.809 --> 00:19:12.490 ITV. I watch people like you. I learn from people 00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:16.970 like you. As far as a lot of people out there 00:19:16.970 --> 00:19:22.450 are good researchers. They reference stuff, you 00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:25.690 know, so you can check it out, you know, yourself. 00:19:27.529 --> 00:19:32.240 Mainstream media, that's all. political kind 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:39.460 of polarisation to suit the agenda of the day, 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:42.240 you know, to suit the narrative that they want 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.460 to push. Very one -sided. So more and more people 00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:49.740 are becoming like that and becoming very angry. 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:53.980 When I was a kid, I went from, I left when I 00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:56.380 was 14 and a half. I left school when I was 14 00:19:56.380 --> 00:20:01.450 and a half. Because, I don't know, I just didn't 00:20:01.450 --> 00:20:04.630 get on with school. I did have a bit of trauma 00:20:04.630 --> 00:20:10.849 at home with my father dying so young. But people 00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:15.470 die. Other parents die. It wasn't a reason for 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:21.569 me to fall apart. But I wasn't an academic and 00:20:21.569 --> 00:20:25.450 I wanted to work. So I started work. I was restless. 00:20:25.630 --> 00:20:31.470 I moved from job to job to job. And the work 00:20:31.470 --> 00:20:39.109 was there. The work was there. We had electric 00:20:39.109 --> 00:20:42.269 trolleybuses. Have you heard of a trolleybus 00:20:42.269 --> 00:20:46.710 before? Yes. An electric trolleybus. What they're 00:20:46.710 --> 00:20:49.650 paying billions now to try and, oh, let's get 00:20:49.650 --> 00:20:51.970 some electric. Oh, what an innovation. Let's 00:20:51.970 --> 00:20:55.410 get some electric cars going. I mean, you know. 00:20:55.769 --> 00:20:57.990 The milk was delivered by an electric milk float. 00:20:58.069 --> 00:21:02.150 I remember that. 50 years ago, you know, and 00:21:02.150 --> 00:21:05.450 we ripped out the infrastructure for the automobile, 00:21:05.670 --> 00:21:11.569 you know, Western Europe, you know, we did. Eastern 00:21:11.569 --> 00:21:14.450 Europe didn't. A place like Poland, Czech Republic, 00:21:14.710 --> 00:21:23.170 they still got their 50s electric bus and trams 00:21:23.170 --> 00:21:26.079 still in operation. That's a fantastic service. 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:28.359 You can set your watch by it. In this country, 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:34.980 no. So, you know, England was green then. It's 00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:39.839 a lot greener than it is now. But there was support 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:45.299 each and every way you went, you know. My tutors, 00:21:45.299 --> 00:21:50.200 my school tutors were all soldiers, ex -soldiers 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:56.089 from the war, you know. I met in a warehouse 00:21:56.089 --> 00:22:00.289 when I was about 16. I met an accountant that 00:22:00.289 --> 00:22:03.609 had no hands. He had a couple of hooks, you know, 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:08.990 in his suit, doing the accounts. He was a Spitfire 00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:14.150 pilot, you know. And I started talking to him. 00:22:15.109 --> 00:22:18.450 And I said, how did you lose your hands? Because 00:22:18.450 --> 00:22:20.430 you're in a kid. You ask questions like that, 00:22:20.450 --> 00:22:22.269 don't you? How did you lose your hands? Then 00:22:22.269 --> 00:22:24.650 he went down as a Spitfire pilot. I got shut 00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:27.029 down and got my hands badly burnt and had to 00:22:27.029 --> 00:22:31.950 come off. And he said, you know, he's just a 00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:34.049 matter of fact, really a matter of fact about 00:22:34.049 --> 00:22:38.710 it. He knew Douglas Bader, didn't like him. And 00:22:38.710 --> 00:22:42.890 the other famous pilot, Second World War, Hurricane 00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:50.450 pilot. And there was support everywhere, everywhere 00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:54.559 you went. And I was just a raghouse going nowhere. 00:22:55.259 --> 00:23:03.980 But work was there and support was there. But 00:23:03.980 --> 00:23:10.440 now it seems to be you have to fight for liberty 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:16.299 these days. It's an uphill struggle to speak 00:23:16.299 --> 00:23:26.009 freely, to think freely. and leads to today's 00:23:26.009 --> 00:23:32.410 problems. Pivotal, pivotal sort of areas of my 00:23:32.410 --> 00:23:35.109 life was obviously, you know, first of all, having 00:23:35.109 --> 00:23:39.569 my kids, hugely pivotal. Before that, I met, 00:23:39.769 --> 00:23:44.210 you know, I did a year at drama school, Newcastle 00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:47.329 Council. I said, you know, I want to go to drama 00:23:47.329 --> 00:23:52.380 school. You know, I was 17. and I wanted to be 00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:56.319 an actor, you know? Another sort of rip -out 00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:01.140 page I just thought up, and said, yeah, how much 00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:03.039 is it? Wrote me a cheque, wrote me a cheque, 00:24:03.099 --> 00:24:07.720 and that was it. Go to local council, you know? 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.759 Birmingham School of Speech and Drama, I met, 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:17.140 near the end of my time there, I met an actor 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:20.819 called Dirk Bogard. who was associated, he was 00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:26.279 a signaller in the Paras. I think he was on somewhere 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:31.059 like Plymouth's Old Bridge. Back home. And inspirational. 00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:36.119 A sort of inspirational person. That prompted 00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.819 me to join the Paras. You know, so I left drama 00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:44.380 school at 18. By the time I was 19, I was a serving 00:24:44.380 --> 00:24:52.759 paratrooper. You know? In probably two years 00:24:52.759 --> 00:25:01.259 into that, around about 77, I got called into 00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:05.440 the CO's office. He said, Graham, you've been, 00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:07.779 I don't know what this is, I don't know what 00:25:07.779 --> 00:25:10.400 this is about, but you've been drafted. And I 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.920 said, drafted where? And he said, you've been 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:18.549 drafted to the Rhodesian Light Infantry. I said, 00:25:18.650 --> 00:25:23.329 who? And he said, Rhodesia Infantry. It's a unit 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:30.950 that's fighting in Rhodesia. And I was just confounded. 00:25:31.150 --> 00:25:38.509 He said, look, I'm going to say no. That's the 00:25:38.509 --> 00:25:42.569 law because you're already serving in the British 00:25:42.569 --> 00:25:46.500 Army. But your mother didn't get you naturalised 00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:53.579 when you came back from... ..Britannia, you know? 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.839 It was some kind of inheritance sort of clause 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:01.559 you had to go through in them days to get signed 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.480 off back to Britain. You know, you can only inherit 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:13.180 your... ..your nationality once, you know? So 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:18.500 that hadn't been done. So I hadn't inherited 00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:25.859 the British nationality. So I had to physically 00:26:25.859 --> 00:26:29.480 get on to my mother and me and her went down 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:32.059 to the council and registered, you know, and 00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:34.799 brought me into the line properly. So I could 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.859 have been fighting. If I had been serving somewhere, 00:26:38.019 --> 00:26:41.059 I would have been drafted to the Rhodesian army, 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.039 you know. which was a fearsome airborne fighting 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:49.000 unit at the time. But that's real fun there. 00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:54.099 While we're on that subject, you spent 13 years 00:26:54.099 --> 00:26:56.920 in Rhodesia, then you moved to Newcastle. I would 00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.019 imagine there was quite a contrast there between 00:26:59.019 --> 00:27:03.359 those two places on planet Earth. I was younger 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.519 than that. I was an infant when we came back. 00:27:07.819 --> 00:27:11.099 Oh, okay. I misunderstood. Yeah, yeah. But when 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:17.440 I was 13, my father died. Okay. And we were, 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.400 you know, my mother made a fair amount of money 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.400 from the business. She wasn't a business lady, 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:29.279 you know, normal human being. And the shop, the 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.980 shops that she bought didn't go well. The apartment 00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:38.440 she bought didn't go very well and ended up in 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:40.769 a council house. which everybody else was in, 00:27:40.849 --> 00:27:44.009 no big deal there. But the council house in them 00:27:44.009 --> 00:27:47.730 days didn't have a lot in there, outside toilets, 00:27:47.809 --> 00:27:52.930 etc. So those were the roots. But I did look 00:27:52.930 --> 00:27:54.430 around me and I thought, I've got to get out 00:27:54.430 --> 00:27:57.710 of here. That was the main thing. There was nothing 00:27:57.710 --> 00:28:03.490 there for me. I love Newcastle and I love Geordie 00:28:03.490 --> 00:28:06.069 people, but there was just nothing there for 00:28:06.069 --> 00:28:10.019 me. I had to... I felt in my heart, to progress, 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:15.539 I've got to get away. I think that's a lot of 00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:24.799 soldiers' story, is getting away from where you 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:26.819 are, what you're doing, and finding something 00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:31.740 else. And once you find it, you know that's for 00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:34.880 you. And that's how I felt when joining the Parachute 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.660 Regiment. Now, did you find yourself deployed 00:28:38.660 --> 00:28:43.140 anywhere before the Falklands? Lowland Island. 00:28:43.380 --> 00:28:47.019 Okay. So you're a young lad from Newcastle. Now 00:28:47.019 --> 00:28:50.240 you're in this crazy conflict, which I've talked 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.019 about this a lot. When people ask me, you know, 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:55.440 where are you from? I'm like, I'm from... There's 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.460 so many definitions for where we're from. You've 00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.160 got England or the Britain or the UK. But to 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.220 me, those two pebbles in the middle of the Atlantic, 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:04.480 that's where I'm from. They're all my people. 00:29:04.700 --> 00:29:07.740 So it was crazy growing up as a young Englishman, 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:11.880 seeing neighbors murdering each other, partly 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.539 from the UK side, partly from the religious side. 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.400 So what was that like for you, a young, young 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.220 para being sent to basically our homeland? and 00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:24.980 being immersed in that horrendous violence that 00:29:24.980 --> 00:29:29.960 you were seeing. It's a strange sort of experience 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:36.200 because they are the same people. It could be 00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:38.839 the north of England, it could be the south of 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:42.420 England, exactly the same culture and exactly 00:29:42.420 --> 00:29:52.150 the same language and look. sometimes the same 00:29:52.150 --> 00:29:56.029 religion, Catholic or Protestant, depending on 00:29:56.029 --> 00:30:01.609 what you were at the time. With no political 00:30:01.609 --> 00:30:13.690 affinity, only the Red Beret and the soldiers 00:30:13.690 --> 00:30:17.809 that are there with you. It's your duty to protect 00:30:17.809 --> 00:30:22.519 each other. in that situation. And up to that 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.539 point, it was quite hairy. It was quite hairy 00:30:26.539 --> 00:30:31.819 all the way through the early days. Between the 00:30:31.819 --> 00:30:39.119 70s and 80s, it was quite hairy. I did about 00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:42.240 four tours over there, four six -month tours. 00:30:44.019 --> 00:30:51.019 And then... in and out of the country, you know. 00:30:51.039 --> 00:31:01.480 So it's six months in that role. And it's basically 00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:03.640 aid to the civil power. That's what it comes 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.500 under as far as the MWD is concerned, aid to 00:31:06.500 --> 00:31:09.420 the civil power. So you can mobilize troops anywhere 00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:11.980 in the country as long as it's aid to the civil 00:31:11.980 --> 00:31:20.240 power, you know. The civil power. have jurisdiction 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:26.200 over you, you know, to carry out for their benefit. 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:32.799 And when the British went out there late 60s, 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:39.019 we were there to defend Catholics, you know, 00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:46.740 from Protestant terrorism. Or, you know... There 00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:50.720 was a lot of sectarian killings going on. Majority 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:57.900 was against Catholic people, Catholic side of 00:31:57.900 --> 00:32:00.759 the community. And we went out there specifically 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:05.200 to protect the Catholics, you know, and which 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:15.619 turned into a Republican type of operation, you 00:32:15.619 --> 00:32:20.940 know. So there was the confusion straight away. 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:25.180 We weren't politically motivated. They were just 00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:28.099 people, as far as we could see, as far as we 00:32:28.099 --> 00:32:32.720 knew. And we were defending somebody against 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.480 somebody else, but those somebody else were the 00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:39.799 same people as us anyway. Was it terrorism? Was 00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:44.019 it crime? Was it sectarianism? So total confusion 00:32:44.019 --> 00:32:48.380 as far as, identifying the reason you you are 00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:51.740 there you know so you had to you you had to uh 00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:54.759 justify it by if you get shot at you shoot back 00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:58.720 simple as that we did the thought process didn't 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:06.640 go any further than that you know um um the the 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:14.380 uh and in the 70s of course the the pyro were 00:33:14.829 --> 00:33:17.269 kind of reborn from the from the irish republican 00:33:17.269 --> 00:33:23.750 army um and and they become they started becoming 00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:31.849 a uh a a formidable terrorist force you know 00:33:31.849 --> 00:33:34.730 all over the province all over the uk and abroad 00:33:34.730 --> 00:33:38.670 you know wherever british interests were you 00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:43.150 find ira as they divide they they work with libyans 00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:47.519 they work with Islamic terrorist organisations 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:53.579 abroad and all to the cause of a united Ireland 00:33:53.579 --> 00:34:02.180 and fighting against British soldiers. And they 00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:03.859 were no slouches. They were very good. They were 00:34:03.859 --> 00:34:11.400 very good at their job. That's about it. It went 00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:16.099 on for another two years. Another 10 years. I 00:34:16.099 --> 00:34:23.639 think it ended when? 90 -something, officially. 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:31.400 Whenever the official ending of the troubles 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:38.019 was declared by the Good Friday Agreement. So 00:34:38.019 --> 00:34:43.130 what was interesting to me, when I... I grew 00:34:43.130 --> 00:34:44.769 up on a farm. It was right next to an MOD base. 00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:47.030 So we would literally have to check under our 00:34:47.030 --> 00:34:50.309 cars in this little farm in the west of England 00:34:50.309 --> 00:34:54.030 because there could be something placed there 00:34:54.030 --> 00:34:57.250 that would try and maybe permeate the fence there. 00:34:57.369 --> 00:35:00.090 So I remember sweeping under the car for bombs 00:35:00.090 --> 00:35:02.670 when I was a schoolboy. Now, was there a high 00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:04.230 chance? Who knows? I mean, none of us knew at 00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:06.730 that point. They were blowing up shopping centers 00:35:06.730 --> 00:35:09.389 and killing women and children in certain isolated 00:35:09.389 --> 00:35:12.769 events. But what was interesting is around that 00:35:12.769 --> 00:35:15.510 time, I remember Mickey Rourke did a film about 00:35:15.510 --> 00:35:19.409 the IRA and then supposedly donated all his proceeds 00:35:19.409 --> 00:35:22.369 from that film to the IRA. That was, again, how 00:35:22.369 --> 00:35:24.690 do I know? But that was what was reported. But 00:35:24.690 --> 00:35:27.809 there was this kind of admiration for these Irish 00:35:27.809 --> 00:35:31.449 freedom fighters in the US. And then we start 00:35:31.449 --> 00:35:33.489 getting more terrorist attacks. It was the first 00:35:33.489 --> 00:35:35.670 World Trade Center attack and obviously 9 -11 00:35:35.670 --> 00:35:39.590 was the big one. And I can't help but think, 00:35:40.269 --> 00:35:45.630 Part of the demise of that terrorism in the UK 00:35:45.630 --> 00:35:49.750 was lack of funding and support from a lot of 00:35:49.750 --> 00:35:51.929 groups in the US. What's your perception of that 00:35:51.929 --> 00:35:57.269 philosophy? Well, it's true. It's a case of... 00:35:57.269 --> 00:36:02.289 That was about the only thing Tony Blair got 00:36:02.289 --> 00:36:09.820 right. He said, you know... particularly Boston, 00:36:10.179 --> 00:36:19.159 quite a few. Even going back to 1940s, 50s, American 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:24.760 movie stars with a perception of Irishness from 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:26.900 their great -great -great -great -grandfather, 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:31.739 you know, sending millions over there, you know, 00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:38.260 towards, you know, for the aim, for the cause. 00:36:40.129 --> 00:36:46.050 Joe Kennedy, you know? Joe Kennedy made himself 00:36:46.050 --> 00:36:51.170 rich from buying Irish whiskey and selling Thompson 00:36:51.170 --> 00:36:57.010 machine guns way before our time, you know? And 00:36:57.010 --> 00:37:03.449 becoming a very rich man through it. And of course, 00:37:03.469 --> 00:37:07.369 again, Irish descent of Irish descent and that 00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:14.059 same kind of... Republican sympathy. The big 00:37:14.059 --> 00:37:18.820 funding came from Boston, mostly Boston, but 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:22.039 all over the States. St. Patrick's Day was a 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:27.500 big crowdfunding event, and it was costing people 00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:35.260 lives. And then the war on terror came, and it 00:37:35.260 --> 00:37:39.500 was an old Blair. was asked to join the war on 00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:44.940 terror. And he said, yeah, we'll join your cause. 00:37:45.380 --> 00:37:50.099 But, you know, one thing has to change. And that's 00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:55.559 the funding of the IRA, you know. And rumor has 00:37:55.559 --> 00:38:00.579 it that the funding stopped or was outlawed in 00:38:00.579 --> 00:38:03.880 the United States so that the British would fight 00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:07.539 in the war on terror, you know. And that makes 00:38:07.539 --> 00:38:10.400 a lot of sense because it's outlawed to this 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:12.780 day. Yeah. Well, I think that's what happened 00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:14.400 is that people realize what terrorism actually 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.380 feels like. And there's nothing patriotic or 00:38:17.380 --> 00:38:21.460 Hollywood -esque about it. It's horrendous. So 00:38:21.460 --> 00:38:23.920 when it happened on our doorstep here in the 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.980 US now, I think people really saw the ugly side 00:38:26.980 --> 00:38:30.309 of what it is. When you reverse engineer the 00:38:30.309 --> 00:38:33.949 troubles in Ireland, of course, the English did 00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:36.010 some horrific things in our history. Some of 00:38:36.010 --> 00:38:37.849 our forefathers and some of the things that we 00:38:37.849 --> 00:38:41.809 did to the Irish. But that's, again, not modern 00:38:41.809 --> 00:38:44.730 day. It's another century. It's nothing to do 00:38:44.730 --> 00:38:47.409 with me and you. Exactly. Me and you would never 00:38:47.409 --> 00:38:51.670 even dream about being that sort of ignorant 00:38:51.670 --> 00:39:00.329 or destructive. But the hate is... It still goes 00:39:00.329 --> 00:39:07.909 on today. It's not a great place to be now. Belfast 00:39:07.909 --> 00:39:10.570 is a fantastic place, but me and you couldn't 00:39:10.570 --> 00:39:15.110 walk down the Falls Road. In Irish, we couldn't 00:39:15.110 --> 00:39:19.710 walk in a Republican bar. We take our lives in 00:39:19.710 --> 00:39:24.030 our hands. We at least get a good kick in. I 00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:27.559 walked in there. and they knew all about me, 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:36.179 I'd be killed. I'd be on the next casualty list. 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:41.619 Well, they would. So the other side of this whole 00:39:41.619 --> 00:39:45.519 issue with war is we tar... Everyone with the 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:47.659 same brush. So Afghanistan, we're at war with 00:39:47.659 --> 00:39:50.719 Afghanistan. The reality is the Afghani people 00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:53.079 are being oppressed by extremists in their country, 00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.860 and that is who the allied nations were trying 00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:59.380 to take care of. What did you see as far as the 00:39:59.380 --> 00:40:02.059 average person in Northern Ireland trying to 00:40:02.059 --> 00:40:05.420 negotiate life with the troubles that were going 00:40:05.420 --> 00:40:13.760 on? Yeah, I mean, the communities were so tight. 00:40:14.409 --> 00:40:18.489 and so divided and so polarised. And they hated 00:40:18.489 --> 00:40:21.469 each other with a passion. You know, absolutely 00:40:21.469 --> 00:40:23.710 hated each other. We couldn't understand the 00:40:23.710 --> 00:40:26.889 hate. You know, we just could not understand 00:40:26.889 --> 00:40:31.150 the hate. Not everybody, but enough to make a 00:40:31.150 --> 00:40:36.010 difference. Enough to keep the cauldron boiling, 00:40:36.210 --> 00:40:41.190 you know. And it was a really sort of difficult 00:40:41.190 --> 00:40:45.349 situation for a soldier. especially combat soldiers 00:40:45.349 --> 00:40:50.469 like paratroopers, it's not their role. It's 00:40:50.469 --> 00:40:53.489 a policing role. But the police have all lost 00:40:53.489 --> 00:40:57.869 control, hence the civil power out there, supported 00:40:57.869 --> 00:41:07.630 by soldiers, you know. And you don't, it's a 00:41:07.630 --> 00:41:10.570 different, you know, you're either a soldier 00:41:10.570 --> 00:41:12.710 or you're a policeman. You can't do both. You 00:41:12.710 --> 00:41:16.090 can't be both. You know, somebody shoots at you, 00:41:16.150 --> 00:41:18.690 you shoot back. You know, people get killed. 00:41:20.070 --> 00:41:24.369 If there is cartel damage, then it's the fog 00:41:24.369 --> 00:41:30.690 of war, as far as I'm concerned. You know? Today, 00:41:31.050 --> 00:41:35.730 there is no fog of war. You're right or you're 00:41:35.730 --> 00:41:41.659 wrong in your opinion today. not 70 years ago 00:41:41.659 --> 00:41:46.739 or 50 years ago or 60 years ago, you know, people 00:41:46.739 --> 00:41:49.420 are putting themselves in situations that happened 00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:56.320 70, 50 years ago, you know, and trying to take 00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:02.340 down 70 -year -old men, you know, for being something 00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:05.780 that happened, which resulted in a death, maybe 00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:13.099 by their hand, in... a contact, in a kinetic 00:42:13.099 --> 00:42:21.619 contact, and you're going to shoulder all of 00:42:21.619 --> 00:42:25.059 the blame. No politicians, no senior officers, 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:29.320 no officers on the ground, just you, just you. 00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:34.739 It's a hell of a responsibility, you know. The 00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:37.360 media, on you, it's your fault, you pulled the 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.659 trigger. as if you were a killer, as if you were 00:42:40.659 --> 00:42:44.159 a murderer, not a killer, a murderer. You know, 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:52.099 that's what's wrong today. You know, those that, 00:42:52.179 --> 00:42:55.840 you know, the Good Pride Agreement achieved two 00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:01.659 things. You know, it achieved the release of 00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:06.559 hundreds of convicted terrorists and incarceration 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:13.119 of... former British soldiers on niff -napping 00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:18.960 trivia that was tried and tested at the time 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:23.019 and information that was finally flawed and they 00:43:23.019 --> 00:43:25.739 were released 40 years ago after the inquiries 00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:32.079 you know so they reinvent the inquiry to make 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:37.119 you guilty it's a lie it's fake it's a lie you 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:45.139 know Brought along by political narrative, you 00:43:45.139 --> 00:43:53.219 know. And I 100 % believe that. And it wasn't 00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:57.300 the Good Friday agreements. You know, the IRA 00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:00.440 came to the table. Not the other way around. 00:44:00.860 --> 00:44:05.320 And they couldn't afford the attrition. You know. 00:44:05.949 --> 00:44:09.010 They were losing too many people. They just could 00:44:09.010 --> 00:44:15.650 not afford the attrition. And no insurgency group 00:44:15.650 --> 00:44:21.289 can. And better to negotiate than fade away. 00:44:23.710 --> 00:44:30.650 As far as they're concerned. People like Gerry 00:44:30.650 --> 00:44:38.670 Adams, genius. in turning the situation into 00:44:38.670 --> 00:44:43.409 their favour. You know? And they were convicted 00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:50.869 terrorists years ago, years before. And ended 00:44:50.869 --> 00:45:01.469 up in Parliament. You know? And, you know... 00:45:01.690 --> 00:45:04.369 The way you construct words, sentences, fantastic. 00:45:05.489 --> 00:45:09.510 And shifting the blame. It's never the Republican 00:45:09.510 --> 00:45:12.269 soldiers' fault. Never the Republican army's 00:45:12.269 --> 00:45:14.670 fault. It's always the British army's fault. 00:45:14.929 --> 00:45:16.929 They shouldn't have been there in the first place. 00:45:17.130 --> 00:45:21.550 On their own soil, you know? It's a British state. 00:45:22.489 --> 00:45:24.590 The vast majority of people wanted to remain 00:45:24.590 --> 00:45:32.260 that way in Northern Ireland, you know? And only 00:45:32.260 --> 00:45:34.619 the Irish people can, only the Northern Irish 00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:39.400 people can decide that. If they decide they want 00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:43.500 a Knight Island, a Knight Island. I'm not sure 00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:50.980 the Republic of Ireland is interested in inheriting 00:45:50.980 --> 00:45:56.429 that problem. They aren't interested. But when 00:45:56.429 --> 00:45:58.329 you talk about the media, one thing that pops 00:45:58.329 --> 00:46:00.730 into my head from my profession, but in the UK, 00:46:00.849 --> 00:46:04.349 is the Grenfell fire. So many firefighters responded 00:46:04.349 --> 00:46:06.889 to that, laid their lives on the line. I had 00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:10.289 Ricky Nuttall on. He and his partner made it 00:46:10.289 --> 00:46:14.769 all the way to the top. I mean, they were rescuing 00:46:14.769 --> 00:46:17.949 countless people from that tower. And the whole 00:46:17.949 --> 00:46:20.369 reason that that was even an issue was the lack 00:46:20.369 --> 00:46:22.389 of maintenance, the cladding they put on the 00:46:22.389 --> 00:46:26.059 outside. to this day, is still dragging the fire 00:46:26.059 --> 00:46:29.239 brigade through the mud. And Danny Cotton, who 00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:31.500 was the chief at the time, I mean, she's been 00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:35.219 the scapegoat. That department did nothing but 00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:38.800 selfless rescue, and the people actually responsible 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:43.139 are still not being held responsible. Yeah, of 00:46:43.139 --> 00:46:44.900 course they are. And that was the councils, the 00:46:44.900 --> 00:46:46.260 governments. The government are responsible. 00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:51.639 You know, chief councils, the local chief council 00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:54.389 was responsible for all those deaths. Nobody 00:46:54.389 --> 00:47:00.409 else, you know. And, you know, there's places 00:47:00.409 --> 00:47:03.489 all over the country like that. And they will 00:47:03.489 --> 00:47:09.289 turn, the media will turn, the media, the political 00:47:09.289 --> 00:47:15.550 classes, the left wing apologists, all and sundry, 00:47:15.630 --> 00:47:21.469 will turn the problem around and blame somebody 00:47:21.469 --> 00:47:25.699 else. They will blame... the heroes you know 00:47:25.699 --> 00:47:30.400 and uh for the death of the victims and not the 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:33.539 perpetrators you know because they are the perpetrators 00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:40.500 you know absolutely labor serials cheap councils 00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:44.800 gutless governments you know that's just the 00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:48.719 way where it is today well speaking of selfless 00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.900 service you finish your tours in in um Northern 00:47:52.900 --> 00:47:56.340 Ireland. Walk me through the beginning of the 00:47:56.340 --> 00:47:59.019 Falklands conflict, you know, what you saw as 00:47:59.019 --> 00:48:01.159 far as the preparation and then let's get to, 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:03.320 you know, you finding yourself on Goose Green. 00:48:04.659 --> 00:48:09.940 Well, yeah, I was, do you remember telegrams? 00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:17.380 I do, yes. I'm that old. Well, everybody in Tupac, 00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:30.860 I got a telegram to say, We were Spearhead Battalion. 00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:39.159 We were just about ending our tour of Spearhead 00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:43.280 Battalion, which is, if anything happens, we'll 00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:46.699 find airborne brigade at the time. And if anything 00:48:46.699 --> 00:48:50.170 happens, you know. We were all packed and ready 00:48:50.170 --> 00:48:54.449 to go, subject to contact with people on a, if 00:48:54.449 --> 00:48:56.349 they're on leave, they're in barracks, that's 00:48:56.349 --> 00:48:59.909 fine, they're there, if they're on leave, a telegram. 00:49:00.409 --> 00:49:10.769 And I was at home on leave. Shortly to take over 00:49:10.769 --> 00:49:17.150 from us was the Angolan Regiment as spearhead. 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:24.420 Italian. And that was sort of, we were almost 00:49:24.420 --> 00:49:30.159 in the transition. I got the call. I reported 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:35.119 back. I was late because the telegram was late. 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:41.039 And I got called into the OC's office, the company 00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:45.679 commander's office. I was, you know, got it. 00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:50.110 a strip torn out of my house, you know, for being 00:49:50.110 --> 00:49:56.449 late. And he said, no, you know, go get your 00:49:56.449 --> 00:49:58.969 guys ready. You're lucky you didn't miss it, 00:49:59.070 --> 00:50:07.250 you know. And so we started getting equipment 00:50:07.250 --> 00:50:13.269 together, getting ready. And it all happened 00:50:13.269 --> 00:50:17.000 very quickly, within days. uh the deployments 00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.380 the the uh we got the last night you know the 00:50:20.380 --> 00:50:24.420 whole battalion was was was on the square uh 00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:28.420 with a threat you know i think it was the weekend 00:50:28.420 --> 00:50:32.960 before or something and uh we knew it was happening 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:38.280 and uh they said if we if we have one piece of 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:43.000 trouble downtown um one person is in jail you 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:45.940 know you'd be taken off the roster and you won't 00:50:45.940 --> 00:50:51.219 be going. So we're heading for the Falcons and 00:50:51.219 --> 00:50:56.579 last night to have a drink and we were warned 00:50:56.579 --> 00:51:00.420 if anybody got into trouble you won't be going. 00:51:00.699 --> 00:51:04.980 And that was the most quiet night Aldershot has 00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:10.039 ever seen in its history. Because everybody wanted 00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:18.179 to go. We had our respective marching orders 00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:23.619 mounted up on the Norland, which was a sea -going 00:51:23.619 --> 00:51:30.039 vehicle ferry. It wasn't an ocean -going liner. 00:51:30.340 --> 00:51:35.119 It was a cross -channel ferry that ferried cars 00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:38.239 in it. That was ferrying a battalion of equipment 00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:45.079 and soldiers. It was... Planning, preparation, 00:51:45.579 --> 00:51:48.280 packing kit, unpacking kit on the way down there. 00:51:48.900 --> 00:51:54.820 The bar was open. I think after we, as I recall, 00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:01.940 left the equator, the closer we got, the less 00:52:01.940 --> 00:52:06.840 we drank, you know. But it was still on tap a 00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:11.400 few days before it was closed. And just taking 00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:14.400 it quite easy, really, taking it quite in our 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:17.679 stride, you know. Most of us thought it's never 00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:21.119 going to happen. The Argentinians will jack before 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:25.460 we get motoring. And it only ever hit us, it 00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:32.519 only really hit us, when the Exocet struck the 00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:37.840 first ship. And that went down. And then we knew 00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:42.360 it was... It was really on, you know, we were 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.539 going, you know, so it started to focus everybody's 00:52:45.539 --> 00:52:52.480 attention, you know. We were a patrol element. 00:52:52.659 --> 00:52:56.480 We were the patrol company, which was in Emden. 00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.619 We didn't have pathfinders in those days. We 00:52:59.619 --> 00:53:01.780 got a separate pathfinder unit to do that kind 00:53:01.780 --> 00:53:07.500 of brigade reconnaissance operation. We didn't 00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:12.900 have that then. patrol companies within those 00:53:12.900 --> 00:53:17.639 companies, platoons and patrols. So they were 00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:23.940 all fed guys, tended to be older guys, you know, 00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:27.780 drawn from the rifle companies to do a decent 00:53:27.780 --> 00:53:30.519 selection within the patrol companies. We were 00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:33.960 kind of specialists within the battalion on reconnaissance 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:39.219 and infiltration. Our infiltration method was 00:53:39.219 --> 00:53:43.340 high -altitude, low -opening parachuting into 00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:47.820 drop zones, manning drop zones, and then consequently 00:53:47.820 --> 00:53:51.860 bringing in battalions, you know, on our sort 00:53:51.860 --> 00:54:04.440 of safe zone. So we were, you know, a battalion 00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:07.199 asset. So we were available to anybody in the 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:12.139 battalion, as I said. And we were used by the 00:54:12.139 --> 00:54:16.519 various different people on the ground, on the 00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:21.980 falcons, as their patrol elements. So we picked 00:54:21.980 --> 00:54:31.019 up a job and go on that job. We landed on a place 00:54:31.019 --> 00:54:39.650 called Blue Beach 2. and two para. So we got 00:54:39.650 --> 00:54:44.329 off in the middle of the night. There'd been 00:54:44.329 --> 00:54:52.329 all kinds of delays. In the landing craft, we 00:54:52.329 --> 00:54:56.449 had a handful of landing craft in the battalion 00:54:56.449 --> 00:54:59.650 and we were moving around in a circle, in a holding 00:54:59.650 --> 00:55:05.170 pattern, waiting for... the SBS to give a green 00:55:05.170 --> 00:55:09.130 light on the beach to say it was going to be 00:55:09.130 --> 00:55:14.150 an unopposed landing. Red light means it's an 00:55:14.150 --> 00:55:16.530 opposed landing. So in other words, the beach 00:55:16.530 --> 00:55:19.030 is manned and we're going to be doing it. We 00:55:19.030 --> 00:55:21.489 were going anyway. But we just, you know, it 00:55:21.489 --> 00:55:23.369 was just that green light, red light. Then we 00:55:23.369 --> 00:55:28.289 knew, you know, the light didn't came. The light 00:55:28.289 --> 00:55:34.550 didn't come. The Marines didn't make it. So at 00:55:34.550 --> 00:55:41.309 night, first thing in the morning, dawn, we landed 00:55:41.309 --> 00:55:46.170 on a beach where we didn't know whether the landing 00:55:46.170 --> 00:55:50.829 was going to be opposed or unopposed. And landed, 00:55:51.030 --> 00:55:54.289 the front of the landing craft went down, out, 00:55:54.349 --> 00:55:59.590 out, out. And we started. That's how we started 00:55:59.590 --> 00:56:07.420 the war, very, very wet. During the orbit of 00:56:07.420 --> 00:56:15.340 the craft, there was a shot rang out and somebody 00:56:15.340 --> 00:56:20.659 had a negligent discharge, a signals guy with 00:56:20.659 --> 00:56:27.039 a Sterling submachine gun, you know. And one 00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:31.940 of the mortar guys in the mortar platoon, one 00:56:31.940 --> 00:56:35.500 of the more opportune signalers that had the 00:56:35.500 --> 00:56:42.460 negligent discharge, the ND. He got to social 00:56:42.460 --> 00:56:45.280 commandments before he changed his socks and 00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:49.460 found out he'd been shot in the heel. So in the 00:56:49.460 --> 00:56:52.239 landing craft, this guy with his finger on the 00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:56.199 trigger with an SNG, a highly unstable submachine 00:56:56.199 --> 00:57:00.159 gun, isn't used today, that went off and put 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:02.309 it right into his heel. he didn't even notice 00:57:02.309 --> 00:57:08.150 such was the adrenaline and uh all the way up 00:57:08.150 --> 00:57:11.070 to such expanse where we had an opportunity to 00:57:11.070 --> 00:57:15.630 rest and change his socks because if one of them 00:57:15.630 --> 00:57:18.349 was really really really wet changed it and he'd 00:57:18.349 --> 00:57:21.849 been shot in the foot didn't even notice so that 00:57:21.849 --> 00:57:25.690 was that was quite memorable my uh one of my 00:57:25.690 --> 00:57:32.440 guys uh fell into some pretty deep water You 00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:36.440 know, you can imagine the sort of the shelf was 00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:39.760 sort of could be like that. If you're lucky, 00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:42.320 you step right onto the beach. If you're unlucky, 00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:47.559 you went up to your neck. This guy did with his 00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:51.400 LMG, with dozens of magazines and the rest of 00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:55.400 the equipment. Everything was man -packed, the 00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:58.659 mortar rounds, two mortar rounds a piece, etc. 00:57:59.340 --> 00:58:02.000 And I just laid him down with... for probably 00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:05.239 150 pounds with a gear on your back you know 00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:12.300 and um so he went under uh you know me and somebody 00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.519 else went under picked him up dragged him onto 00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:20.440 the beach and uh our priority was you know we 00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:23.000 had to get ahead in the battalion uh that was 00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:27.179 our role so we couldn't go anywhere until we 00:58:27.179 --> 00:58:31.329 got his feet sorted and at least a dry top on. 00:58:31.469 --> 00:58:34.769 So we achieved that in double quick time and 00:58:34.769 --> 00:58:40.110 then started galloping to the front of this battalion 00:58:40.110 --> 00:58:44.610 snake as we knew. And still at night, still unopposed. 00:58:45.389 --> 00:58:54.429 And ice, a cold, a wind, the mist walked past 00:58:54.429 --> 00:58:59.570 this group of... just talking quietly as we were 00:58:59.570 --> 00:59:04.670 advancing. I walked past, I slipped on my arse, 00:59:04.690 --> 00:59:08.369 you know, and it was H. Jones. And he says, who 00:59:08.369 --> 00:59:12.989 the fuck's that? And I says, Corbyn Gettysburg. 00:59:13.590 --> 00:59:16.789 And he says, where the fuck are you from? And 00:59:16.789 --> 00:59:19.309 he said, patrols. And he said, well, patrols 00:59:19.309 --> 00:59:26.380 are at the front. Fucking get going. Got up, 00:59:26.380 --> 00:59:29.000 the rest of the patrol got me up because these 00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:34.079 burdens were just, you know, the weight was unbearable, 00:59:34.179 --> 00:59:40.159 but you had to. And picked ourselves up and cracked 00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:43.219 on the front where the rest of the patrol company 00:59:43.219 --> 00:59:48.159 was, you know. And our responsibility was getting 00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:53.300 the patrols out into different areas of the... 00:59:55.440 --> 01:00:00.440 the battlefield to pick up information, feed 01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:07.340 back any information that the TAC -1 HQ needed. 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:10.940 So everything we come across, we fed back information. 01:00:11.059 --> 01:00:13.559 That was our job, eyes and ears of the battalion. 01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:20.400 On to Sussex Mountain, people had a chance to 01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:27.719 breathe, to dig in. And by the time it was light, 01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:33.539 everybody's still cold, still wet. However, we'd 01:00:33.539 --> 01:00:36.519 be able to change our socks, get a water resub, 01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:41.099 get some food on. We'd started digging as soon 01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:44.679 as we stopped. The holes filled up with water 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:50.699 because of the water table in the peat bogs. 01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:56.199 There was very little solid. rock where we were 01:00:56.199 --> 01:01:00.539 you couldn't dig through the solid rock so you 01:01:00.539 --> 01:01:04.280 dug where it was soft and the soft was peat you 01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:11.159 know so we had to dig anyway and sleep and work 01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:17.460 outside of the gun trenches that we dug you know 01:01:17.460 --> 01:01:21.639 so if an airstrike came in we were straight in 01:01:21.639 --> 01:01:27.360 the holes At least we had a bit of cover, but 01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:29.340 there was a lot of water, a bit of cover and 01:01:29.340 --> 01:01:39.599 a lot of water. Some people built different sandbag 01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:43.760 emplacements or pit emplacements just for a little 01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:49.699 bit of protection. No trees, pretty featureless 01:01:49.699 --> 01:01:55.539 terrain. And we sort of turned around, looked 01:01:55.539 --> 01:02:09.159 down the valley and the warships started to do 01:02:09.159 --> 01:02:14.960 whatever they were doing. There was another battalion 01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:22.440 behind us of guards. way down in Sussex Valley. 01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:28.900 Then the airstrikes started. So airstrikes from 01:02:28.900 --> 01:02:34.539 the Argentinian Air Force started their bombing 01:02:34.539 --> 01:02:38.679 runs up and down what we nicknamed Bomb Alley. 01:02:39.659 --> 01:02:43.960 So they'd fly over our heads and heading straight 01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:48.539 for the ships. So by that time... Everybody was, 01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:51.860 you know, two battalions on their backs firing 01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:57.800 aimlessly into the air, you know. It's a fast 01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:01.059 green jet. The chances of hitting something is 01:03:01.059 --> 01:03:04.579 pretty minimal on your own. If you get a wall 01:03:04.579 --> 01:03:07.139 of lead from two battalions, then you have to 01:03:07.139 --> 01:03:10.119 fly through it, you know, and that's the theory 01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:15.039 behind it. The superintendards were pretty untouchable, 01:03:15.099 --> 01:03:17.519 you know, by the time they... You heard them. 01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:24.039 They were gone. You know, they're so fast. Some 01:03:24.039 --> 01:03:28.820 of the kills we had attributed to the battalions 01:03:28.820 --> 01:03:32.340 were two or three Skyhawk, which were slower 01:03:32.340 --> 01:03:35.880 aircraft. They were ground attack vehicle and 01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:43.880 a fighter. The Superintendents were there. They 01:03:43.880 --> 01:03:50.059 had the Exocet missiles. And they were only interested 01:03:50.059 --> 01:04:00.619 in ships. Throughout the day, they got, you know, 01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:04.579 several hits on several ships and started to 01:04:04.579 --> 01:04:08.199 get pretty depressing, you know, watching all 01:04:08.199 --> 01:04:10.440 those warships getting hit and none of the aircraft, 01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:14.309 apart from the aircraft hit with... small arms 01:04:14.309 --> 01:04:16.250 fire and we said, well, where are the Harriers? 01:04:17.590 --> 01:04:19.849 They couldn't get off the boats because of bad 01:04:19.849 --> 01:04:23.110 weather. You know, they couldn't take off because 01:04:23.110 --> 01:04:27.090 of bad weather out at sea. Having said that, 01:04:27.090 --> 01:04:33.690 I believe, you know, the Argentinian pilots were 01:04:33.690 --> 01:04:37.670 hit, ambushed on their way out back to Buenos 01:04:37.670 --> 01:04:43.159 Aires, you know, by Harriers. And once they were 01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:48.519 able to get airborne, so they had the Argentinian 01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:51.940 Air Force had a high, very brave pilots, but 01:04:51.940 --> 01:04:56.119 they had a high attrition rate. And, you know, 01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:59.960 resulting in a lot of victories for the Harrier 01:04:59.960 --> 01:05:07.079 pilots. Patrol platoon, like I said, was a patrol 01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:11.949 platoon who were tasked to go forward. doing 01:05:11.949 --> 01:05:18.889 various tasks, including eyes near the battalion, 01:05:18.989 --> 01:05:24.909 doing reconnaissance on particular areas that 01:05:24.909 --> 01:05:29.030 the attack one required, feeding back information. 01:05:30.030 --> 01:05:35.269 You had special forces, an extra bound inland, 01:05:35.510 --> 01:05:42.679 doing... doing their thing, which was more along 01:05:42.679 --> 01:05:45.320 the lines of things like, you heard of Pebble 01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:49.619 Island? It rings a bell, yeah. Taking on airfields 01:05:49.619 --> 01:05:52.519 and strategic, sort of higher strategic stuff. 01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:57.340 And we were feeding back information that was 01:05:57.340 --> 01:05:59.460 going to be useful for a battalion move, you 01:05:59.460 --> 01:06:03.079 know, to move forward and get rifle companies 01:06:03.079 --> 01:06:06.619 into a safe area that they could set up, ready 01:06:06.619 --> 01:06:10.150 to fight a battle. So that was our main role, 01:06:10.329 --> 01:06:16.349 which we achieved. While we were out, one night, 01:06:16.530 --> 01:06:22.230 we were in and out, maybe 10 miles, 10km's out, 01:06:22.309 --> 01:06:26.210 10km's back, 10km's out, 10km's back. We were 01:06:26.210 --> 01:06:28.969 retasked all the time. The battalion rested, 01:06:29.230 --> 01:06:32.750 but we didn't get a chance to rest. We were straight 01:06:32.750 --> 01:06:36.380 out, in light order. bobble hats as opposed to 01:06:36.380 --> 01:06:39.380 helmets, no burgers, no sleeping bags, just soft, 01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:43.059 soft, we called them Chinese fighting suits, 01:06:43.179 --> 01:06:48.300 but it was basically a duvet, a cheap and nasty 01:06:48.300 --> 01:06:52.239 duvet jacket and leggings, you know, that zipped 01:06:52.239 --> 01:06:56.119 up, which were, at the time, they were gold dust, 01:06:56.300 --> 01:06:59.239 you know, you could roll them up small and put 01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:03.440 them in a, on your gear somewhere, ready to take 01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:06.590 out. and put that on at night and then take it 01:07:06.590 --> 01:07:11.329 off in the morning and then put it back and try 01:07:11.329 --> 01:07:14.489 to keep it as dry as possible. Everywhere else 01:07:14.489 --> 01:07:21.849 was full of ammunition. So this one time we were 01:07:21.849 --> 01:07:26.230 sent back out in light order again and we were 01:07:26.230 --> 01:07:30.190 retasked. We went out on an ambush that didn't 01:07:30.190 --> 01:07:34.760 happen. We got retasked to... head for Kimberley 01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:40.980 Creek House and that was the battalion RV. Ace 01:07:40.980 --> 01:07:44.820 Jones had decided that, or the authorities had 01:07:44.820 --> 01:07:51.179 decided that Goose Green was going to be the 01:07:51.179 --> 01:07:57.659 first land battle, you know. And, you know, we 01:07:57.659 --> 01:08:02.880 just expected a battle. We were picking up information 01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:10.059 from TAC HQ. We fed information back. And we 01:08:10.059 --> 01:08:19.140 ascertained that Special Forces had said that 01:08:19.140 --> 01:08:28.600 Goose Green was badly defended. There wasn't 01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:31.310 a lot of people there. It was badly manned. and 01:08:31.310 --> 01:08:36.949 a quick raid from a paramilitary or a quick attack 01:08:36.949 --> 01:08:40.750 from a paramilitary and they'd fall straight 01:08:40.750 --> 01:08:45.449 away, you know. And that wasn't the case. Their 01:08:45.449 --> 01:08:48.590 OPs didn't get close enough, you know. By the 01:08:48.590 --> 01:08:53.829 time our OPs, our patrol guys got close enough, 01:08:54.029 --> 01:08:59.960 we discovered hundreds, you know. dozens of different 01:08:59.960 --> 01:09:08.399 positions that the SF had missed. To be fair 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:12.220 to the SF at the time, they were on strategic, 01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:20.020 their job was strategic target acquisition at 01:09:20.020 --> 01:09:22.439 the time, which they did very effectively. They 01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:24.020 can only do what they're asked to do, in other 01:09:24.020 --> 01:09:31.020 words. saw patrol patrol company patrol uh elements 01:09:31.020 --> 01:09:34.640 of the patrol platoon um got the the nitty -gritty 01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:37.359 information that was going to help fight the 01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:40.220 soldiers on the ground it was going to help the 01:09:40.220 --> 01:09:44.939 the um uh the section commanders the the toms 01:09:44.939 --> 01:09:46.880 on the ground that we're going to actually fix 01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:50.420 famous and do the killing you know that was that 01:09:50.420 --> 01:09:53.500 was important to me i wasn't interested in what 01:09:53.500 --> 01:09:57.329 was above turner you know I wasn't interested 01:09:57.329 --> 01:09:58.930 in politics. I wasn't interested in anything 01:09:58.930 --> 01:10:04.189 except getting the job done to protect as many 01:10:04.189 --> 01:10:07.890 fighter soldiers as possible, you know, and enable 01:10:07.890 --> 01:10:10.630 them to do their job and take the least amount 01:10:10.630 --> 01:10:19.189 of casualties. So we did that. And the battle 01:10:19.189 --> 01:10:25.850 started, you know, in the early hours one morning. 01:10:30.719 --> 01:10:38.640 And we, after having done our patrol task, the 01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:44.000 wiper companies took over to do the vast majority 01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:47.840 of the fighting. And we moved the tactical band 01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:51.460 back and went to get retasked again, which we 01:10:51.460 --> 01:10:56.970 did on other positions. more or less the same 01:10:56.970 --> 01:11:09.270 thing. The battle continued throughout the day. 01:11:11.170 --> 01:11:15.310 H. Jones was the commander. He had a timeline 01:11:15.310 --> 01:11:23.369 in his mind to get right. He wanted everything 01:11:23.369 --> 01:11:27.380 done by a certain time. And we were falling back 01:11:27.380 --> 01:11:30.800 in time all of a sudden because people were fighting 01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:32.739 and getting bogged down in certain positions. 01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:36.760 The support, we weren't getting any support. 01:11:37.100 --> 01:11:44.220 We weren't getting ammunition resupply. So there's 01:11:44.220 --> 01:11:48.960 only a limited amount of things you can do, you 01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:52.859 know. While still fighting forward, it would 01:11:52.859 --> 01:11:56.350 have been easier, quicker. if we'd have had the 01:11:56.350 --> 01:12:04.029 assets that didn't arrive, you know. And as it 01:12:04.029 --> 01:12:07.329 was, the pace was slowed. And that, you know, 01:12:07.329 --> 01:12:11.890 for Ace Jones, that was terrible. And he kept 01:12:11.890 --> 01:12:14.810 pushing the guys, pushing the guys. And he's 01:12:14.810 --> 01:12:19.210 the commander. That's what they did. And we kept 01:12:19.210 --> 01:12:27.920 on fighting. A company came across a position 01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:34.659 at Darwin Hill, which is, you know, it's called 01:12:34.659 --> 01:12:37.760 the Gorse Gully. You know, we recognise it as 01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:40.899 the Gorse Gully. The battalion advanced up that 01:12:40.899 --> 01:12:47.039 gully and with a company leading, they hadn't 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:49.260 had the benefit of the patrols because of the 01:12:49.260 --> 01:12:53.760 rush. The company of patrol platoon was tasked 01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:58.939 to do some reconnaissance forward. Consequently, 01:12:59.100 --> 01:13:03.939 they didn't know anybody was there in that valley. 01:13:06.460 --> 01:13:10.680 And they were virtually ambushed, you know, from 01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:16.520 in -depth positions, interlocking or overlapping 01:13:16.520 --> 01:13:21.590 arcs of fire from dozens of machine guns. mortar 01:13:21.590 --> 01:13:25.529 fire and eventually artillery and death strike. 01:13:27.869 --> 01:13:33.409 And that was during the day. So we were in reserve 01:13:33.409 --> 01:13:36.069 at the time and we could see this happening. 01:13:37.010 --> 01:13:44.329 I'm wondering why they walked into that situation. 01:13:45.069 --> 01:13:51.300 But hindsight is everything. And that's basically 01:13:51.300 --> 01:13:57.380 why they went in there blind, basically. So it 01:13:57.380 --> 01:13:59.439 was a hell of a big fight their way out of that. 01:14:01.819 --> 01:14:06.140 The battalion eventually fought their way out 01:14:06.140 --> 01:14:12.380 of that. The B Company were fighting on one front, 01:14:12.619 --> 01:14:16.600 D Company fighting on another front, start lines 01:14:16.600 --> 01:14:22.090 established by other patrols. A company had gone 01:14:22.090 --> 01:14:25.329 through some real difficulty and were fighting 01:14:25.329 --> 01:14:28.850 their way out of that. Ace Jones and his TAC 01:14:28.850 --> 01:14:31.590 -1 wanted to go forward to find out what was 01:14:31.590 --> 01:14:35.090 happening. Ace Jones was always push, push, push. 01:14:35.649 --> 01:14:41.649 And quite a few officers from his TAC -1 got 01:14:41.649 --> 01:14:49.010 killed within minutes of arriving there. until 01:14:49.010 --> 01:14:53.329 the tack one was just ineffective. Tack two had 01:14:53.329 --> 01:14:55.430 to take over, which was a tactical two element, 01:14:55.630 --> 01:15:03.750 a duplicate of tack one. And the H. Jones took 01:15:03.750 --> 01:15:07.449 it upon himself to come down the slope, up another 01:15:07.449 --> 01:15:12.270 ridge on the right, and it's happened to take 01:15:12.270 --> 01:15:20.659 out a machine gun emplacement on his own. There 01:15:20.659 --> 01:15:22.840 was other things happening at the same time. 01:15:24.680 --> 01:15:29.460 Seconds after H. Jones was killed, A Company 01:15:29.460 --> 01:15:31.359 had managed to get some of their small elements 01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:36.560 onto a flank section, or two on the flank, putting 01:15:36.560 --> 01:15:43.220 down heavy fire on the flank of A Company's position, 01:15:43.399 --> 01:15:45.619 and they were able to pick up the momentum again 01:15:45.619 --> 01:15:51.729 and fight their way out. So lots of casualties, 01:15:52.250 --> 01:15:58.689 lots of deaths, and just kept the momentum going. 01:15:59.090 --> 01:16:03.750 We had a bit of a rest after the Gorse Gully. 01:16:06.909 --> 01:16:12.270 As a patrol platoon, we went forward and we were 01:16:12.270 --> 01:16:16.689 clearing, making sure that all of the gun emplacements 01:16:16.689 --> 01:16:21.250 were... neutralized so like a mopping operation 01:16:21.250 --> 01:16:26.630 if you like and um um the rest of the company 01:16:26.630 --> 01:16:28.850 taking taking care of their wounded and dead 01:16:28.850 --> 01:16:35.130 uh it was a prolonged rest and then the momentum 01:16:35.130 --> 01:16:38.409 started to pick up orders came through um a new 01:16:38.409 --> 01:16:43.590 seal was in place major keyboard and um uh started 01:16:43.590 --> 01:16:48.149 the ball rolling um B company were complete. 01:16:48.930 --> 01:16:52.050 D company were ready to go. And then they started 01:16:52.050 --> 01:16:55.369 moving around to the right flank of Goose Green. 01:16:55.930 --> 01:17:01.850 And patrol company advanced to contact. Yeah, 01:17:01.850 --> 01:17:03.510 you know what advanced to contact means. You 01:17:03.510 --> 01:17:06.829 just advance until you get shot at. And then 01:17:06.829 --> 01:17:12.130 go into your tackle. So that was the first time 01:17:12.130 --> 01:17:17.819 C company had come under. We'd been under fire 01:17:17.819 --> 01:17:25.500 before that. But this was the first time we'd 01:17:25.500 --> 01:17:29.399 been pushed into an overt role. It'd been covert 01:17:29.399 --> 01:17:32.279 roles up to then, it was an overt role now. And 01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:36.239 we were just fighting our way forward into a 01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:41.140 position. We'd been under some horrendous fire. 01:17:41.279 --> 01:17:43.479 And again, lots and lots of casualties taken 01:17:43.479 --> 01:17:47.210 on the way down there. from all elements. And 01:17:47.210 --> 01:17:50.930 it was a horrendous fire from in -depth positions 01:17:50.930 --> 01:17:54.350 at Goose Green. Artillery, mortar, machine -gun 01:17:54.350 --> 01:18:00.850 fire. At some point, two car, air -to -ground 01:18:00.850 --> 01:18:06.329 attacks were going in on the troops and got to 01:18:06.329 --> 01:18:12.729 a position where we went firm. One of the corporals... 01:18:13.680 --> 01:18:16.880 I had taken over as platoon sergeant. They shouted, 01:18:16.939 --> 01:18:22.220 fix Bainis. We'll fix Bainis. And I just said, 01:18:22.239 --> 01:18:27.220 you know, follow me to the right. We peeled off 01:18:27.220 --> 01:18:36.319 right into another valley and close to a position 01:18:36.319 --> 01:18:38.939 called the schoolhouse, which was one of the 01:18:38.939 --> 01:18:43.689 Argentinians' strongholds. D company were fighting 01:18:43.689 --> 01:18:47.409 forward on the right side. B company were on 01:18:47.409 --> 01:18:56.569 the airfield. And, you know, companies were intermingled 01:18:56.569 --> 01:19:02.949 by them. And, you know, from anybody's perspective, 01:19:03.029 --> 01:19:06.930 it just looked like a ramble, you know, just 01:19:06.930 --> 01:19:11.569 advancing onto a position. Yeah. Thousands of 01:19:11.569 --> 01:19:14.390 rounds across people's shoulders, machine gun, 01:19:14.510 --> 01:19:18.029 GPMG machine guns. It was just in advance, you 01:19:18.029 --> 01:19:25.789 know. Fighting forward. We got to close to the 01:19:25.789 --> 01:19:29.090 position of the schoolhouse. D Company put in 01:19:29.090 --> 01:19:35.090 some massive fire support. We'd arranged with 01:19:35.090 --> 01:19:43.210 Tom Harley, who was a link man. with his section, 01:19:43.449 --> 01:19:47.909 platoon, et cetera, and elements of D Company. 01:19:48.109 --> 01:19:51.369 We said, you know, he took our heavier weapons, 01:19:51.510 --> 01:19:54.069 our machine guns, our grenade launchers. We went 01:19:54.069 --> 01:19:56.829 forward with rifles and he was going to put in 01:19:56.829 --> 01:20:01.649 some fierce fire support and we'd go up a very 01:20:01.649 --> 01:20:05.010 tight, small re -entrance and assault the schoolhouse 01:20:05.010 --> 01:20:08.930 for a flight. And that's what we did. Once the 01:20:08.930 --> 01:20:15.789 schoolhouse was taken out, we came under, you 01:20:15.789 --> 01:20:22.069 know, that was the furthest forward position 01:20:22.069 --> 01:20:27.609 of the whole battle area by then. And once that 01:20:27.609 --> 01:20:30.729 position was taken over, the schoolhouse caught 01:20:30.729 --> 01:20:34.109 fire. We grenaded it. It had been first thrown. 01:20:37.180 --> 01:20:39.859 the building was on fire by now and it started 01:20:39.859 --> 01:20:42.899 taking some horrendous fire from the in -depth 01:20:42.899 --> 01:20:45.699 positions on that on that position because they 01:20:45.699 --> 01:20:47.579 knew that the forward edge of the battle area 01:20:47.579 --> 01:20:52.220 so they concentrate the fire on on that um we 01:20:52.220 --> 01:20:55.779 got pinned down then and uh couldn't move forward 01:20:55.779 --> 01:21:00.859 back left right uh we just occupied gun trenches 01:21:00.859 --> 01:21:05.439 that were uh taken by uh which were argentinian 01:21:05.439 --> 01:21:09.020 positions you know So throwing out dead bodies 01:21:09.020 --> 01:21:10.859 and occupying them with light bodies, basically. 01:21:12.739 --> 01:21:16.479 And keeping our head down. Got a few photographs 01:21:16.479 --> 01:21:21.560 now of each other. And nothing to do but get 01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:24.079 a broom on. You know, get a broom on, that's 01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:29.279 it. And darkness came. We stripped our kit off, 01:21:29.319 --> 01:21:31.920 threw it behind us. It was a slight incline down 01:21:31.920 --> 01:21:40.810 to get away from that... that position. It went 01:21:40.810 --> 01:21:43.890 quiet and it went dark. So we took that opportunity 01:21:43.890 --> 01:21:47.689 to move back, picking up casualties as we went, 01:21:47.750 --> 01:21:52.890 you know. We were told, you know, that was our 01:21:52.890 --> 01:21:55.310 orders, move back to A company's position. We 01:21:55.310 --> 01:21:58.670 moved back with casualties, D company casualties, 01:21:58.949 --> 01:22:03.409 picking up and taking them back, our own casualties. 01:22:10.899 --> 01:22:14.119 On that feature, on the A company position, there 01:22:14.119 --> 01:22:20.819 was a plan drawn up by the CEO, Kibo, at the 01:22:20.819 --> 01:22:30.899 time, to attempt a surrender by the Argentinians. 01:22:32.020 --> 01:22:37.300 At this time... We had no artillery, no mortars. 01:22:37.880 --> 01:22:46.260 Ammunition was very low. And no water, no food, 01:22:46.340 --> 01:22:54.899 no supplies. Nothing coming, you know. And Akiva 01:22:54.899 --> 01:22:59.600 wrote this letter. First of all, me and another 01:22:59.600 --> 01:23:02.939 patrol commander from patrols. We're going to 01:23:02.939 --> 01:23:07.619 take that in with a prisoner, you know, to the 01:23:07.619 --> 01:23:12.239 Argentinian stronghold under a white flag. You 01:23:12.239 --> 01:23:15.119 know, this other guy constructed a white flag 01:23:15.119 --> 01:23:19.739 from somewhere, you know. And then it turned 01:23:19.739 --> 01:23:23.939 out they had a, they found a Marine officer, 01:23:24.119 --> 01:23:27.539 or sorry, one of the officers spoke Spanish. 01:23:27.819 --> 01:23:35.180 So he went down with a prisoner. And with the 01:23:35.180 --> 01:23:37.640 letter that said, you know, words to this effect, 01:23:37.859 --> 01:23:42.619 you know, we're resupplied, we're reinforced 01:23:42.619 --> 01:23:47.960 by Marine Battalion, which we weren't. We have 01:23:47.960 --> 01:23:55.880 mortar ammunition. We've been resupplied mortar 01:23:55.880 --> 01:23:58.760 ammunition, artillery rounds. It's supplied with 01:23:58.760 --> 01:24:04.590 small arms. We have airstrikes on call. And if 01:24:04.590 --> 01:24:08.710 you don't surrender, Cusco will be bombarded 01:24:08.710 --> 01:24:11.689 at first light. And you will be responsible for 01:24:11.689 --> 01:24:14.590 all the civilians that you're holding against 01:24:14.590 --> 01:24:25.569 their will. And, you know, the sham worked. And 01:24:25.569 --> 01:24:28.869 they surrendered. And that's a fact we can live. 01:24:29.479 --> 01:24:32.239 We would have fought on to the death. There's 01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:35.140 absolutely no doubt about that. There would have 01:24:35.140 --> 01:24:38.899 been no surrender on our part. But this is the 01:24:38.899 --> 01:24:41.939 kind of thing that's happening in the Second 01:24:41.939 --> 01:24:45.100 World War. We've fought ourselves to a standstill. 01:24:46.039 --> 01:24:52.659 And that's when you get people counterattacking 01:24:52.659 --> 01:24:58.899 and taking you out because they've managed to... 01:24:59.020 --> 01:25:01.180 Lure you into a position where you've fought 01:25:01.180 --> 01:25:02.779 yourself to a standstill. That's the position 01:25:02.779 --> 01:25:05.939 we were on. We were completely spent. Spent force. 01:25:06.319 --> 01:25:09.760 And yes, we would have died on the spot if the 01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:11.920 counter -attack did happen. There would have 01:25:11.920 --> 01:25:17.399 been no surrender on our part. The commander 01:25:17.399 --> 01:25:22.220 of the Goose Green took the letter and surrendered. 01:25:23.239 --> 01:25:27.079 So composite team went down, 50 people, some 01:25:27.079 --> 01:25:30.920 patrols. A company volunteers, B company volunteers, 01:25:31.020 --> 01:25:35.000 about 50 in all, went down to accept the surrender. 01:25:35.619 --> 01:25:38.600 The only courtesy was the Albertinians wanted 01:25:38.600 --> 01:25:44.920 a formal surrender in a quadrangle, formally 01:25:44.920 --> 01:25:50.000 hand over officers' swords, throw the weapons, 01:25:50.079 --> 01:25:53.220 they were asked to throw the weapons into the 01:25:53.220 --> 01:25:59.369 centre of the quadrangle. The officers were allowed 01:25:59.369 --> 01:26:04.050 to keep their side arms, you know, I think to 01:26:04.050 --> 01:26:07.130 protect themselves against the troops, is the 01:26:07.130 --> 01:26:12.310 word. And 50 of us took the surrender in support 01:26:12.310 --> 01:26:14.470 of the officers that were taking the surrender. 01:26:18.270 --> 01:26:22.090 The Argentinians started to come out, throwing 01:26:22.090 --> 01:26:25.829 their weapons into the centre of the quadrangle. 01:26:26.470 --> 01:26:30.390 quadrangle got bigger and bigger and bigger from 01:26:30.390 --> 01:26:38.569 a dozen to 20 to 50 to 100 and 200 and 300 all 01:26:38.569 --> 01:26:42.550 the way up to almost 1200 troops argentinian 01:26:42.550 --> 01:26:49.329 troops you know and uh imagine what we felt like 01:26:49.329 --> 01:26:55.449 yeah you know yeah there's 50 of us virtually 01:26:55.449 --> 01:26:58.130 able -bodied, you know, we've got a spent battalion 01:26:58.130 --> 01:27:03.470 behind us and taking the surrender from 1 ,400 01:27:03.470 --> 01:27:13.050 people, you know. And that was the end. So I 01:27:13.050 --> 01:27:16.770 think that, you know, we did a good job. Tupac 01:27:16.770 --> 01:27:19.229 did a good job. He did a great job. All ranks 01:27:19.229 --> 01:27:27.289 did a fantastic job. For me, having done what 01:27:27.289 --> 01:27:36.649 I did, it's the biggest hostage rescue operation. 01:27:38.010 --> 01:27:40.550 The whole of the Falklands campaign was the biggest 01:27:40.550 --> 01:27:45.229 hostage rescue campaign in the world. Today, 01:27:45.390 --> 01:27:50.050 3 ,000 people, 3 ,000 British passport holders. 01:27:50.770 --> 01:27:53.520 That's the difference between... that kind of 01:27:53.520 --> 01:27:57.640 campaign and something like iraq and afghan you 01:27:57.640 --> 01:28:01.380 know well firstly that was an insight that i 01:28:01.380 --> 01:28:03.140 hadn't heard before especially on the surrender 01:28:03.140 --> 01:28:06.119 side i mean i read the book and um you know there's 01:28:06.119 --> 01:28:09.500 that one element where initially a small surrender 01:28:09.500 --> 01:28:12.539 was to be taken and then allegedly the argentinians 01:28:12.539 --> 01:28:15.539 had actually opened fire on on the men that were 01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:21.189 receiving the the surrender so yeah But one thing 01:28:21.189 --> 01:28:23.189 that really kind of struck me, and we're going 01:28:23.189 --> 01:28:25.869 back now to your year in drama school. I spent 01:28:25.869 --> 01:28:28.930 a year in drama school. And when it came to the 01:28:28.930 --> 01:28:31.050 showcase time where you do a monologue for agents, 01:28:31.310 --> 01:28:36.270 a lot of my peers were pure actors and they chose 01:28:36.270 --> 01:28:38.649 Shakespeare and some other plays. And I found 01:28:38.649 --> 01:28:41.329 one called Welcome Home by Tony Marchand. And 01:28:41.329 --> 01:28:44.270 it was a Falklands veteran or a group of veterans 01:28:44.270 --> 01:28:46.989 basically at a funeral of one of their fallen 01:28:46.989 --> 01:28:50.340 brothers. And this one character talks about 01:28:50.340 --> 01:28:52.720 when the doors of the schoolhouse were open, 01:28:52.800 --> 01:28:55.119 all the bodies like the charred wood on a burnt 01:28:55.119 --> 01:28:58.600 out bonfire. So here we are now having this conversation. 01:28:58.760 --> 01:29:01.840 I'm talking to the man who actually walked into 01:29:01.840 --> 01:29:03.760 that schoolhouse and you write about it in the 01:29:03.760 --> 01:29:06.720 book. So, I mean, there must have been some absolute 01:29:06.720 --> 01:29:10.640 horrors, you know, some horrific losses from, 01:29:10.760 --> 01:29:12.579 you know, you yourself had some experience in 01:29:12.579 --> 01:29:14.000 Northern Ireland. I'm sure a lot of the guys 01:29:14.000 --> 01:29:15.720 that you were serving with maybe hadn't seen 01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:19.170 any combat by that point. Talk to me about the 01:29:19.170 --> 01:29:22.189 ripple effect. You yourself had a street party. 01:29:22.270 --> 01:29:25.210 You felt like you were received well. What was 01:29:25.210 --> 01:29:28.689 the longevity of that gratitude when you returned 01:29:28.689 --> 01:29:32.470 home? And between then and now, have you seen 01:29:32.470 --> 01:29:34.670 some of your fellow soldiers struggle with what 01:29:34.670 --> 01:29:40.430 happened in the Falklands Islands? Yes and no. 01:29:40.510 --> 01:29:47.760 Yes and no. Again, it's people, you know. Look, 01:29:47.819 --> 01:29:52.220 I never lost my focus. You know, I still have 01:29:52.220 --> 01:29:57.800 focus now. Most of my friends from, you know, 01:29:57.819 --> 01:30:05.159 from that era were patrol company. Patrol platoon, 01:30:05.319 --> 01:30:08.060 for instance, stuck together on WhatsApp for 01:30:08.060 --> 01:30:12.020 the last 40 years, you know. And half of that 01:30:12.020 --> 01:30:18.970 number were in 22SAS with me, you know. So we 01:30:18.970 --> 01:30:24.170 motivate each other and people have died from 01:30:24.170 --> 01:30:26.590 the group. People have fallen on hard times. 01:30:27.130 --> 01:30:32.390 And as a group, we've looked after people and 01:30:32.390 --> 01:30:41.750 taken care of ourselves. Nobody's perfect and 01:30:41.750 --> 01:30:46.600 nobody has a perfect life. People just don't 01:30:46.600 --> 01:30:50.579 make it. But sometimes they wouldn't have made 01:30:50.579 --> 01:30:54.939 it in any other scenario either. It's hard to 01:30:54.939 --> 01:31:02.279 pin down onto something like Goose Green. People 01:31:02.279 --> 01:31:08.380 have struggled. People have committed suicide 01:31:08.380 --> 01:31:14.359 over the years from the battalion. Several people. 01:31:16.419 --> 01:31:22.899 And a fair amount have fallen on hard times. 01:31:24.079 --> 01:31:28.359 The Parachute Regiment have a good regiment -laid 01:31:28.359 --> 01:31:36.260 sort of assistance department that look after 01:31:36.260 --> 01:31:39.680 people when they seek help. If somebody doesn't 01:31:39.680 --> 01:31:43.039 seek help, you can't find it. It won't be there. 01:31:43.629 --> 01:31:47.069 You have to seek help. That's the first bit of 01:31:47.069 --> 01:31:50.109 advice that I'd give anybody. That's finding 01:31:50.109 --> 01:31:56.949 life unbearable because of what they did or seen. 01:31:58.850 --> 01:32:04.069 Remain focused. Look for help. The help is there 01:32:04.069 --> 01:32:09.850 if you want it. We look after people that didn't 01:32:09.850 --> 01:32:14.020 want the help. So we forced help onto them. And 01:32:14.020 --> 01:32:20.020 that's the difficulty. People, even when they 01:32:20.020 --> 01:32:29.479 drop their fill, they won't be helped. And for 01:32:29.479 --> 01:32:31.180 those people, you can't do anything else. You 01:32:31.180 --> 01:32:36.340 can't do anything for them except humour. Try 01:32:36.340 --> 01:32:38.340 and humour them out a bit. It'll help them in 01:32:38.340 --> 01:32:43.029 a humorous way. But it's a case of... you know 01:32:43.029 --> 01:32:47.010 people have to ask for help before they get it 01:32:47.010 --> 01:32:58.130 um and stay focused stay ambitious um and and 01:32:58.130 --> 01:33:04.729 and uh and stay close to your family you know 01:33:04.729 --> 01:33:07.590 that's the main thing as far as the media is 01:33:07.590 --> 01:33:10.760 concerned um the difference You know, you write 01:33:10.760 --> 01:33:14.659 about differences of how they feel, you know, 01:33:14.720 --> 01:33:18.899 how they feel towards the Falkland War. I think 01:33:18.899 --> 01:33:28.199 everything the media say about any conflict that's 01:33:28.199 --> 01:33:31.000 to do with the British Army these days is bad, 01:33:31.039 --> 01:33:36.899 you know. I think the Falkland Islands was, you 01:33:36.899 --> 01:33:39.939 know, part of a Second World War. The Falcon 01:33:39.939 --> 01:33:47.159 Islands was the most noble war we've ever fought, 01:33:47.319 --> 01:33:56.119 you know? Iraq, Afghan, you know, complete waste 01:33:56.119 --> 01:34:01.100 of time. The only thing the British Army got 01:34:01.100 --> 01:34:06.899 out of it was experience, you know? Too many 01:34:06.899 --> 01:34:09.510 shattered lives. Too many shattered bodies, too 01:34:09.510 --> 01:34:17.210 many shattered minds. Policing, you know. The 01:34:17.210 --> 01:34:20.489 kind of injuries we sustained in the Falcon Riders, 01:34:20.710 --> 01:34:24.850 the vast majority were gunshot wounds, you know. 01:34:26.189 --> 01:34:30.750 You're fighting insurgency as in Iraq and Afghanistan. 01:34:31.090 --> 01:34:33.289 After the main battle, the main battles are easy. 01:34:33.550 --> 01:34:37.510 You know, it's the... It's the insurgency, it's 01:34:37.510 --> 01:34:42.729 the patrolling, it's the policing, you know, 01:34:42.789 --> 01:34:52.350 and the IEDs, the hate that people have to deal 01:34:52.350 --> 01:34:55.869 with. It reminded me of Northern Ireland, you 01:34:55.869 --> 01:34:59.189 know, and some of the injuries you get, you had 01:34:59.189 --> 01:35:04.890 in, for instance, in Afghan and Iraq post -war. 01:35:05.399 --> 01:35:11.800 post -battle, initial battle, you know, people 01:35:11.800 --> 01:35:13.380 haven't seen those kind of injuries since the 01:35:13.380 --> 01:35:19.039 First World War, you know. So it's a hell of 01:35:19.039 --> 01:35:26.560 a lot for a human being to absorb, you know. 01:35:27.199 --> 01:35:32.020 So they have all my sympathy. But again, the 01:35:32.020 --> 01:35:35.130 same rules. Stick to your family, stay focused, 01:35:35.510 --> 01:35:40.729 and do something good every day. You know, reflect 01:35:40.729 --> 01:35:43.710 on yourself and make yourself the hero, you know, 01:35:43.729 --> 01:35:51.649 because they are the hero, you know. And the 01:35:51.649 --> 01:36:00.989 deniers, the apologists, the left -wing brigade, 01:36:01.189 --> 01:36:05.060 you know. You can go and do one. And that's the 01:36:05.060 --> 01:36:07.680 attitude you have to have. You must believe in 01:36:07.680 --> 01:36:10.640 yourself before you believe in anybody else. 01:36:11.119 --> 01:36:13.500 And that's what people lose. They lose belief 01:36:13.500 --> 01:36:15.939 in themselves. They lose belief in themselves. 01:36:17.180 --> 01:36:19.260 They lose belief in others. They lose belief 01:36:19.260 --> 01:36:24.939 in the system. And once that damage has been 01:36:24.939 --> 01:36:27.659 done to somebody's mind, it's a hell of a road 01:36:27.659 --> 01:36:39.060 back. I hope in our training cycles we've achieved 01:36:39.060 --> 01:36:50.659 a lot in passing on what we do, passing on our 01:36:50.659 --> 01:36:52.880 experiences, passing on our training techniques 01:36:52.880 --> 01:36:57.539 and our coping mechanisms. Hopefully we've made 01:36:57.539 --> 01:37:00.359 a little bit of difference to people's lives. 01:37:01.229 --> 01:37:03.189 Yeah, well, it's a valuable perspective, I think, 01:37:03.210 --> 01:37:05.609 especially with the conflicts that you've been 01:37:05.609 --> 01:37:07.409 involved with and obviously the roles that you've 01:37:07.409 --> 01:37:09.029 held in the military and what you're doing now 01:37:09.029 --> 01:37:12.069 as well. You've got a very unique lens. One more 01:37:12.069 --> 01:37:14.409 question about the Falcons before we progress 01:37:14.409 --> 01:37:17.090 through. Through my very naive and completely 01:37:17.090 --> 01:37:20.649 detached from the military perspective, I ask 01:37:20.649 --> 01:37:23.729 the question, could that have been resolved through 01:37:23.729 --> 01:37:27.140 diplomacy? whether prior to when we finally got 01:37:27.140 --> 01:37:29.460 to the point where Argentinian feet hit Falkland 01:37:29.460 --> 01:37:33.520 soil, when you analyze that entire kind of conflict 01:37:33.520 --> 01:37:35.460 now, was there any point where we could have 01:37:35.460 --> 01:37:38.100 avoided war or was that one that had to happen? 01:37:40.800 --> 01:37:46.100 It was unavoidable. We have two completely different 01:37:46.100 --> 01:37:57.770 political structures. On one hand, we have a 01:37:57.770 --> 01:38:02.109 murderous junta at the time, not anymore, at 01:38:02.109 --> 01:38:07.770 the time, a murderous junta. And on the other 01:38:07.770 --> 01:38:12.670 side, you've got a stable democracy, you know. 01:38:13.130 --> 01:38:17.329 And there was no way, there was no going back 01:38:17.329 --> 01:38:19.949 for the Argentinian military. The military that 01:38:19.949 --> 01:38:22.529 was in charge, there was no going back. They 01:38:22.529 --> 01:38:25.319 wanted those islands as a political move. They 01:38:25.319 --> 01:38:29.720 want those islands as a distraction because of 01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:34.880 the corrupt economy that was prevalent at the 01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:41.859 time. And I don't believe there would have been 01:38:41.859 --> 01:38:45.420 any way out of that as far as a political settlement 01:38:45.420 --> 01:38:49.260 is concerned. The only way that would have been 01:38:49.260 --> 01:38:52.020 achieved is if there was another prime minister 01:38:52.020 --> 01:38:56.630 in charge. a left -wing Labour government, perhaps, 01:38:56.810 --> 01:39:00.989 would have said no, or weak Conservative governments. 01:39:04.909 --> 01:39:10.670 They would say, OK, we'll do a deal. And that 01:39:10.670 --> 01:39:15.109 deal would have been uncompromising as far as 01:39:15.109 --> 01:39:20.350 the Argentinians were concerned. Once they had 01:39:20.350 --> 01:39:28.100 won... the political battle, you've given away 01:39:28.100 --> 01:39:32.300 3 ,000 British lives. You've left 3 ,000 British 01:39:32.300 --> 01:39:36.800 lives to their fate. You know? It's like giving 01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:46.060 up Dover to Adolf Hitler, isn't it? And... But 01:39:46.060 --> 01:39:48.880 who knows, you know? Everybody there would be 01:39:48.880 --> 01:39:53.640 speaking Spanish now, wouldn't they? And would 01:39:53.640 --> 01:39:57.399 it be such a terrible thing? I don't know. But 01:39:57.399 --> 01:40:02.100 at the time, something had to be done. And Mortimer 01:40:02.100 --> 01:40:07.960 Thatcher was just the lady to do it. See, this 01:40:07.960 --> 01:40:11.579 is what I love about what I do now. I grew up 01:40:11.579 --> 01:40:13.279 as a... I mean, I was eight when the Falklands 01:40:13.279 --> 01:40:16.159 War happened, so I was completely naive at the 01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:19.119 time, but... Reading your book and reading where 01:40:19.119 --> 01:40:23.020 Argentina was at that point in the early 80s 01:40:23.020 --> 01:40:25.699 with the killings of anyone who opposed that 01:40:25.699 --> 01:40:30.960 government, you realize, oh, well, my philosophy 01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:34.079 on what could have possibly been done to prevent 01:40:34.079 --> 01:40:37.899 it was imagining two governments having the same 01:40:37.899 --> 01:40:40.340 kind of mindset. But when you put in that one 01:40:40.340 --> 01:40:43.920 is a vicious dictatorship. now it changes the 01:40:43.920 --> 01:40:46.140 whole kind of equation of would it have played 01:40:46.140 --> 01:40:48.720 out this way. So I love these conversations because 01:40:48.720 --> 01:40:51.340 I'm learning and realizing, okay, I used to think 01:40:51.340 --> 01:40:53.539 that this was possibly avoidable, but now listening 01:40:53.539 --> 01:40:56.760 to these stories and reading the history of the 01:40:56.760 --> 01:41:00.180 events leading up to it, at that point, a tyrant 01:41:00.180 --> 01:41:02.899 was not only... oppressing the Falkland Islanders, 01:41:02.899 --> 01:41:05.060 but he was oppressing his own people and murdering 01:41:05.060 --> 01:41:07.100 them and throwing them out in the ocean, as you 01:41:07.100 --> 01:41:09.920 write about. So this is what I love about these 01:41:09.920 --> 01:41:12.239 conversations. You can't summarize this in a 01:41:12.239 --> 01:41:16.359 tweet or a five -minute news segment. Yeah, that's 01:41:16.359 --> 01:41:20.619 true, yeah. It was only ever going to go one 01:41:20.619 --> 01:41:27.340 way, you know, and that was war. But having said 01:41:27.340 --> 01:41:33.659 that, you know, if... If the losses to the shipping 01:41:33.659 --> 01:41:38.579 had continued, maybe if we lost a troop ship, 01:41:38.760 --> 01:41:46.000 you know, I mean, things would have been a lot 01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:48.159 different. You know, hit one troop ship, you've 01:41:48.159 --> 01:41:51.600 lost a battalion of men. You know, you're not 01:41:51.600 --> 01:41:57.220 going to get them men back, you know. And that's 01:41:57.220 --> 01:42:03.649 600 people, you know. potentially. And that would 01:42:03.649 --> 01:42:07.229 have been a huge loss. All of a sudden, yeah, 01:42:07.350 --> 01:42:11.069 well, you know, you drop the Belgrado. We've 01:42:11.069 --> 01:42:15.369 dropped the Norland. Let's negotiate from the 01:42:15.369 --> 01:42:20.350 Argentinian side. You know? It would have been 01:42:20.350 --> 01:42:25.670 a lot different. You know? Let's see who blinks 01:42:25.670 --> 01:42:37.859 first. We went there, disorganized rabble, you 01:42:37.859 --> 01:42:48.720 know, and ill -equipped, ill -prepared. But the 01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:54.100 one outstanding factor that I remember was we 01:42:54.100 --> 01:42:56.180 were the parachute regiment. We were the best. 01:42:57.460 --> 01:43:01.279 We were going to be victorious either way. If 01:43:01.279 --> 01:43:06.199 we fought, we were going to be victorious. And 01:43:06.199 --> 01:43:15.779 we were. So you concluded this part of your career. 01:43:16.039 --> 01:43:18.380 I want to get to Iraq quickly. I know we're getting 01:43:18.380 --> 01:43:21.119 very short on time now. But what was the transition? 01:43:21.199 --> 01:43:24.020 What made you decide to go from the paras to 01:43:24.020 --> 01:43:34.739 the SAS? I was a 100 % confirmed soldier by then, 01:43:34.859 --> 01:43:38.319 you know. Some people take up soldiering for 01:43:38.319 --> 01:43:41.880 a job, some people take it up as a career. That 01:43:41.880 --> 01:43:44.779 was my chosen career then, and I wanted to go 01:43:44.779 --> 01:43:49.260 to the next level, you know. I wasn't getting 01:43:49.260 --> 01:43:56.859 on too well with the pirate hierarchy. I wanted 01:43:56.859 --> 01:44:02.180 to do... continuous operations. I wanted to go 01:44:02.180 --> 01:44:04.359 somewhere where I could get more of the same. 01:44:05.039 --> 01:44:08.300 I didn't want to come back from the Fulton Islands 01:44:08.300 --> 01:44:13.319 and stand on for two years doing guards or back 01:44:13.319 --> 01:44:18.300 into a training cycle and never go to war again. 01:44:18.579 --> 01:44:23.520 I mean, I've been in the Army sort of seven, 01:44:24.100 --> 01:44:29.069 eight years by then. You know, that was the first 01:44:29.069 --> 01:44:33.810 sort of land battle I'd ever encountered, apart 01:44:33.810 --> 01:44:37.569 from Northern Ireland. That was it. There was 01:44:37.569 --> 01:44:44.029 no Afghan, there was no Syria, there was no Iraq, 01:44:44.250 --> 01:44:52.670 you know. So I felt to get more operations under 01:44:52.670 --> 01:44:59.050 my belt, I'd have to go. where there was perceptively 01:44:59.050 --> 01:45:01.609 continuous operations, and that was the SAS. 01:45:01.989 --> 01:45:07.329 So that's what drew me to do selection. What 01:45:07.329 --> 01:45:10.229 was it about your physicality or mindset that 01:45:10.229 --> 01:45:13.149 allowed you to succeed in the selection process 01:45:13.149 --> 01:45:18.310 when so many others failed? Again, it's just 01:45:18.310 --> 01:45:20.810 mindset. It's putting one foot in front of the 01:45:20.810 --> 01:45:28.210 other. People... a lot more fit guys than I could 01:45:28.210 --> 01:45:32.250 ever be fail, fail selection. You know, better 01:45:32.250 --> 01:45:35.750 soldier than me failed selection thousands of 01:45:35.750 --> 01:45:43.729 times, you know, on paper. It's just an indomitable 01:45:43.729 --> 01:45:51.710 desire to do something. And I think there's no 01:45:51.710 --> 01:45:55.659 going back. You know, it was either I didn't 01:45:55.659 --> 01:46:00.039 have a B plan. I was going to be in the SAS and 01:46:00.039 --> 01:46:05.680 that's it. I'm not going back. That's it. I didn't 01:46:05.680 --> 01:46:07.899 have any plan. I didn't have another plan. That's 01:46:07.899 --> 01:46:10.840 the only plan I had. That's the only plan I wanted. 01:46:11.779 --> 01:46:19.159 And I eventually got the honour of going on selection. 01:46:24.040 --> 01:46:26.840 It's a matter of, you know, the mindset put in 01:46:26.840 --> 01:46:30.640 front of the other and not thinking about the 01:46:30.640 --> 01:46:35.579 big picture. You start thinking about the big 01:46:35.579 --> 01:46:40.619 picture, you know, you won't get further than 01:46:40.619 --> 01:46:45.039 a week, no matter how fit you are, because your 01:46:45.039 --> 01:46:48.039 mind will be troubled. You know, when you do 01:46:48.039 --> 01:46:50.439 selection with a troubled mind, it's just like... 01:46:50.600 --> 01:46:52.859 It's like doing selection with a bad knee or 01:46:52.859 --> 01:46:55.420 a bad ankle. You just ain't going to finish. 01:46:56.539 --> 01:47:06.520 So the mindset has to be 100 % clarity in what 01:47:06.520 --> 01:47:10.479 you want. And then the rest falls into place. 01:47:12.939 --> 01:47:15.760 I think that's an important part of that whole 01:47:15.760 --> 01:47:17.539 mental health conversation as well. And I've 01:47:17.539 --> 01:47:20.000 talked about this a little bit on here. you have 01:47:20.000 --> 01:47:22.220 two paths. Like you said, there's someone who 01:47:22.220 --> 01:47:25.159 we know is struggling. And so their path is to 01:47:25.159 --> 01:47:28.140 try and navigate some of the issues, whether 01:47:28.140 --> 01:47:29.920 it's early life, whether it's what they saw in 01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:32.760 uniform, all the other stresses that we have 01:47:32.760 --> 01:47:35.359 in our life. And that's a very obvious path. 01:47:35.560 --> 01:47:37.380 And you find the right things that work for you 01:47:37.380 --> 01:47:39.100 and you get help and you grow from it and you 01:47:39.100 --> 01:47:42.100 become stronger. The other side of it, I think 01:47:42.100 --> 01:47:43.819 that you don't really hear discussed very often 01:47:43.819 --> 01:47:46.140 is the human performance side. So if you want 01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:48.960 to be an elite firefighter or soldier or whatever 01:47:48.960 --> 01:47:51.720 your profession is, you need, just as you said, 01:47:51.800 --> 01:47:54.760 that calm mind. So it's the same exact tools. 01:47:54.859 --> 01:47:59.319 You're dealing with the things that are making 01:47:59.319 --> 01:48:01.340 your mind busy. It might be trauma in your early 01:48:01.340 --> 01:48:03.500 life. It might be some of the battles or the 01:48:03.500 --> 01:48:08.729 fires or the police calls that you went on. you're 01:48:08.729 --> 01:48:11.289 then using those tools to address that so that 01:48:11.289 --> 01:48:14.789 gives you that calm mind so with the 10 000 hours 01:48:14.789 --> 01:48:17.829 of repetitions and the high level of stress that 01:48:17.829 --> 01:48:19.770 you have on the battlefield or on the fire ground 01:48:19.770 --> 01:48:22.750 now you're able to get into that that flow state 01:48:22.750 --> 01:48:25.529 as it were and perform at the highest level so 01:48:25.529 --> 01:48:29.500 for me the guys that struggle with maybe putting 01:48:29.500 --> 01:48:31.020 their hand on their heart and saying, okay, I 01:48:31.020 --> 01:48:32.680 do have some stuff I have to deal with. That's 01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:35.239 another way of reframing the exact same conversation. 01:48:35.479 --> 01:48:37.800 If you want to be the best firefighter or the 01:48:37.800 --> 01:48:41.600 best, you know, operator, then you still go through 01:48:41.600 --> 01:48:43.680 the same process. You deal with the things that 01:48:43.680 --> 01:48:46.600 are making your mind busy. So then you can operate 01:48:46.600 --> 01:48:49.680 at the highest level. Yeah, as a major, the training 01:48:49.680 --> 01:48:52.060 major, when he spoke to us, he said that the 01:48:52.060 --> 01:48:54.960 longest, you know, when we first did start on 01:48:54.960 --> 01:48:59.000 selection, he said the longest. I mean, it's 01:48:59.000 --> 01:49:01.739 horrendous mileage on that course. You wouldn't 01:49:01.739 --> 01:49:07.420 believe it. It's just horrendous. And he said 01:49:07.420 --> 01:49:11.060 the longest distance on selection is from here 01:49:11.060 --> 01:49:16.220 to there. What's the longest distance? Between 01:49:16.220 --> 01:49:20.119 your ears. Between your ears. What's the longest 01:49:20.119 --> 01:49:22.479 distance you're going to have to tackle? The 01:49:22.479 --> 01:49:26.800 rest is easy. I love that. Well, speaking of 01:49:26.800 --> 01:49:30.600 training, when I'm thinking of training in Britain, 01:49:30.760 --> 01:49:32.819 I grew up not far from Salisbury Plain. So I 01:49:32.819 --> 01:49:35.479 know you guys do a lot of operations there. I 01:49:35.479 --> 01:49:38.079 think of the Brecon Beacons and English winter 01:49:38.079 --> 01:49:40.039 can be pretty, pretty rough. And obviously, the 01:49:40.039 --> 01:49:42.479 further north you go, the worse it gets. So that 01:49:42.479 --> 01:49:44.600 I could imagine would be good preparation for 01:49:44.600 --> 01:49:46.399 a place like the Falklands Islands, which is 01:49:46.399 --> 01:49:49.159 kind of not too far from Antarctica. But then 01:49:49.159 --> 01:49:53.829 we begin a war in the Middle East. What was that 01:49:53.829 --> 01:49:55.909 transition, because you got into it so early, 01:49:55.949 --> 01:50:00.090 from training in what would replicate the Falklands 01:50:00.090 --> 01:50:04.689 or France, Germany, etc., from the 40s to now 01:50:04.689 --> 01:50:07.590 we're on the Middle Eastern battleground again, 01:50:07.609 --> 01:50:09.609 even though, as you said, your father was fighting 01:50:09.609 --> 01:50:13.050 in that in the 40s. Was there a shift in the 01:50:13.050 --> 01:50:15.750 ability to train for that kind of environment, 01:50:15.989 --> 01:50:23.039 for that kind of weather? Not really. I didn't 01:50:23.039 --> 01:50:27.000 fight in the Gulf. I was in Colombia at the time 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:32.020 on other operations in South America in general. 01:50:32.300 --> 01:50:38.760 And the SAS regiment isn't about training for 01:50:38.760 --> 01:50:42.800 one theatre of operations. It's multifaceted, 01:50:42.880 --> 01:50:46.760 you know. So our training cycle and operational 01:50:46.760 --> 01:50:50.710 cycle revolves around different... continuous 01:50:50.710 --> 01:50:56.649 different terrains, desert, heat, cold, Arctic, 01:50:56.949 --> 01:51:00.250 you know, so you're pretty much trained up for 01:51:00.250 --> 01:51:08.090 everything. So my experiences in Iraq from perspective 01:51:08.090 --> 01:51:14.310 as a PMC, which was straight after Gulf II, 2003, 01:51:14.689 --> 01:51:22.810 we entered Iraq from Kuwait into a a devastated 01:51:22.810 --> 01:51:29.189 war landscape you know which was uh pretty pretty 01:51:29.189 --> 01:51:31.949 horrendous you know the leftovers from wars to 01:51:31.949 --> 01:51:36.510 their traumatic corpses you know as you as you 01:51:36.510 --> 01:51:40.949 as you moved inland you know baked baked by the 01:51:40.949 --> 01:51:47.050 sun the debris of war and uh all the way to all 01:51:47.050 --> 01:51:49.819 the way to Baghdad Completely different environment 01:51:49.819 --> 01:51:54.279 from a Falcons environment. What made you transition 01:51:54.279 --> 01:51:57.539 out of the SAS and begin the road contracting? 01:51:58.380 --> 01:52:04.399 Well, I retired when I was 42 from the regiment. 01:52:04.819 --> 01:52:10.300 And I went into contracting almost immediately. 01:52:15.340 --> 01:52:18.159 After two years in and out of Iraq, for instance, 01:52:18.640 --> 01:52:25.319 which was a pretty hectic, busy time, I started 01:52:25.319 --> 01:52:31.359 my own company and went into the training business 01:52:31.359 --> 01:52:38.800 of training PMCs in both tactics and education. 01:52:40.300 --> 01:52:42.260 So what have you seen? Because, I mean, there's 01:52:42.260 --> 01:52:46.729 obviously been... I'm sure a huge amount of members 01:52:46.729 --> 01:52:49.710 of the contracting world that have done incredible 01:52:49.710 --> 01:52:53.270 things overseas, but we were exposed again through 01:52:53.270 --> 01:52:56.770 the media, through some of the dark side of early 01:52:56.770 --> 01:52:58.270 contracting. I don't know if that was specifically 01:52:58.270 --> 01:53:01.250 Blackwater or if it was other agencies as well, 01:53:01.329 --> 01:53:03.510 but there seemed to have been, through the war 01:53:03.510 --> 01:53:05.489 in the Middle East, a kind of evolution of the 01:53:05.489 --> 01:53:07.710 role of the contractor and the parameters that 01:53:07.710 --> 01:53:10.289 they can operate in. What did you see through 01:53:10.289 --> 01:53:13.630 your British eyes? Well, you know, the contractor 01:53:13.630 --> 01:53:17.850 business is essentially protection, protection 01:53:17.850 --> 01:53:20.310 business, you know, it's the business of protection. 01:53:21.149 --> 01:53:28.449 It's not offensive operations, you know. That's 01:53:28.449 --> 01:53:31.229 where Blackwater went wrong, was because they 01:53:31.229 --> 01:53:38.069 went in with the impression that they were going 01:53:38.069 --> 01:53:44.270 into an offensive operational role. which maybe 01:53:44.270 --> 01:53:52.149 they felt they wanted to create for whatever 01:53:52.149 --> 01:53:55.590 reason. But the fact was, the fact is, you know, 01:53:55.609 --> 01:53:58.930 contracting is protecting people from A to B. 01:54:00.689 --> 01:54:05.109 It's no different than protecting, as a bodyguard, 01:54:05.189 --> 01:54:12.090 protecting you on the streets of London. protecting 01:54:12.090 --> 01:54:15.210 somebody on the streets of Baghdad, except that 01:54:15.210 --> 01:54:17.850 you're armed. That's the only difference. So 01:54:17.850 --> 01:54:20.250 the skills, drills, tactical procedures are all 01:54:20.250 --> 01:54:26.470 the same. And the thing that got me into it was 01:54:26.470 --> 01:54:32.229 initially, initial deployments were X sort of 01:54:32.229 --> 01:54:35.350 specialists in their field, particularly our 01:54:35.350 --> 01:54:40.340 lot. But there's only so many. People you can 01:54:40.340 --> 01:54:43.760 recruit are in an operation like that. As the 01:54:43.760 --> 01:54:50.880 contracting business develops, multiple companies 01:54:50.880 --> 01:54:55.180 develop, corporations develop, you need more 01:54:55.180 --> 01:55:00.680 and more people. There isn't enough form of special 01:55:00.680 --> 01:55:04.579 forces, airborne marines, the specialist infantry. 01:55:09.729 --> 01:55:14.850 that had some kind of specialist skill. And they 01:55:14.850 --> 01:55:17.289 sort of seamlessly walked into that business. 01:55:17.489 --> 01:55:23.949 But the number isn't finite. So you had to start 01:55:23.949 --> 01:55:27.710 recruiting from elsewhere. And this became a 01:55:27.710 --> 01:55:30.109 problem because you were deploying people that 01:55:30.109 --> 01:55:33.329 weren't trained for that environment. They're 01:55:33.329 --> 01:55:35.529 trained in the desert, trained with communication 01:55:35.529 --> 01:55:40.399 skills, trained with... advanced gun training 01:55:40.399 --> 01:55:45.939 for the purposes of protection. I identified 01:55:45.939 --> 01:55:50.880 this quite early on and I thought, well, you 01:55:50.880 --> 01:55:56.300 know, I've been trained by the best in my eyes 01:55:56.300 --> 01:56:01.619 at the time on the bodyguard business in Hereford. 01:56:02.560 --> 01:56:07.779 I can pass that on. a gun training element to 01:56:07.779 --> 01:56:12.640 it in Poland or Czech Republic at the time and 01:56:12.640 --> 01:56:17.699 make some serious money. And that's what we did. 01:56:19.380 --> 01:56:23.880 Well, you made a comment earlier about the Iraq 01:56:23.880 --> 01:56:26.399 and the Afghani war being very different than... 01:56:27.119 --> 01:56:30.039 Falklands, for example. You've definitely shown 01:56:30.039 --> 01:56:32.359 that it's not an anti -war sentiment in this 01:56:32.359 --> 01:56:34.140 whole conversation, that there are times, and 01:56:34.140 --> 01:56:35.939 I would argue World War II is a prime example, 01:56:36.220 --> 01:56:39.220 where we have to take up arms and fight a true 01:56:39.220 --> 01:56:42.000 tyrant. But there's been a lot of, like I said 01:56:42.000 --> 01:56:46.020 earlier, a lot of emotional turmoil about Iraq, 01:56:46.199 --> 01:56:49.199 about Afghanistan, from the reason that we were 01:56:49.199 --> 01:56:52.239 supposedly sent there initially to... what should 01:56:52.239 --> 01:56:55.279 have been seemingly a short conflict with a lot 01:56:55.279 --> 01:56:58.000 of special operations communities and then you 01:56:58.000 --> 01:57:00.340 know leaving again versus the 20 years that we 01:57:00.340 --> 01:57:04.479 stayed in afghanistan so contrasting falklands 01:57:04.479 --> 01:57:06.619 you know and you've been in iraq as a contractor 01:57:06.619 --> 01:57:09.439 for a long time talk to me about just your own 01:57:09.439 --> 01:57:12.140 philosophy on those two conflicts versus the 01:57:12.140 --> 01:57:13.779 one that you were involved early in your career 01:57:13.779 --> 01:57:21.500 uh well the the um you know iraq came from a 01:57:21.500 --> 01:57:28.899 political doctrine, you know, created for whatever 01:57:28.899 --> 01:57:38.939 reason by Tony Blair and Bush, you know. Excuse 01:57:38.939 --> 01:57:49.220 me. And this alliance that grew into, you know, 01:57:49.760 --> 01:57:54.159 a historic lie, you know, that there were weapons 01:57:54.159 --> 01:57:59.779 of mass destruction in Iraq and Saddam Hussein 01:57:59.779 --> 01:58:03.239 was going to deploy them, you know, too sweet 01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:09.460 to the Western world. No proof for that. Nobody 01:58:09.460 --> 01:58:13.140 knows why they wanted him deposed. Nobody knows 01:58:13.140 --> 01:58:18.869 why. There's all kinds of... conspiracy theories 01:58:18.869 --> 01:58:26.989 on finance you know with with you know Iraq having 01:58:26.989 --> 01:58:32.050 its own currency and not and doing well and not 01:58:32.050 --> 01:58:35.350 being relying on the dollar or sterling you know 01:58:35.350 --> 01:58:38.170 those kind of conspiracy theories I'm not a fan 01:58:38.170 --> 01:58:43.010 of them but you know there is still no 100 % 01:58:43.010 --> 01:58:52.800 reason why the Western world moved on Iraq, you 01:58:52.800 --> 01:58:57.579 know. Consequently, it was a glorious victory, 01:58:57.800 --> 01:59:02.020 you know, very well performed by all arms involved. 01:59:04.500 --> 01:59:08.520 Destroyed the Iraqi armed forces, which, you 01:59:08.520 --> 01:59:12.979 know, the joint British and American operation 01:59:12.979 --> 01:59:15.100 couldn't do that, you know, we'd have to retire. 01:59:15.800 --> 01:59:23.140 both armies, weren't we? And then the bullshit 01:59:23.140 --> 01:59:27.800 started, the patrols, the hearts and minds, the 01:59:27.800 --> 01:59:33.180 indoctrination, the attempted indoctrination 01:59:33.180 --> 01:59:44.159 of an Islamic culture to be brought to heel by... 01:59:46.249 --> 01:59:50.029 a Christian culture, which essentially we are, 01:59:50.170 --> 01:59:54.970 you know. It was a bit imperialist, if you like, 01:59:55.109 --> 02:00:02.069 you know. Again, as a soldier, I 100 % backed 02:00:02.069 --> 02:00:05.270 the soldiers and the war's will on whatever they 02:00:05.270 --> 02:00:14.059 did. And the politics were pretty rotten. at 02:00:14.059 --> 02:00:16.399 the get -go, at the onset, and they continue 02:00:16.399 --> 02:00:21.920 to be rotten over the years as Exposé, after 02:00:21.920 --> 02:00:29.380 Exposé, will pay testament to. At the end of 02:00:29.380 --> 02:00:34.699 the conflict, nothing has been achieved. Absolutely 02:00:34.699 --> 02:00:38.159 nothing. I know contractors out there now who 02:00:38.159 --> 02:00:42.100 have been there since I was there in 2003. They're 02:00:42.100 --> 02:00:44.670 still out there. Nothing has changed. Nothing. 02:00:45.409 --> 02:00:47.670 There's still power cuts. There's still corruption. 02:00:48.550 --> 02:00:54.250 There's still sectarian killings. It's pretty 02:00:54.250 --> 02:00:57.250 safe. I mean, you can fly to Baghdad tomorrow, 02:00:57.529 --> 02:01:02.770 you know, and we'll be safe. We'll be safe, you 02:01:02.770 --> 02:01:05.710 know. We'll go to a hotel and have a good time 02:01:05.710 --> 02:01:08.510 around, we can go anywhere at night, but certainly 02:01:08.510 --> 02:01:13.539 during the day. There's no reason to attack us, 02:01:13.619 --> 02:01:20.039 you know. They kill each other a lot still. This 02:01:20.039 --> 02:01:23.819 is from reports I get from people who are still 02:01:23.819 --> 02:01:30.420 out there. Lots of sectarian killings going on 02:01:30.420 --> 02:01:36.659 because of the several sort of factions of the 02:01:36.659 --> 02:01:42.239 Islamic faith. Before Westman, it's business 02:01:42.239 --> 02:01:48.779 as usual. But corruption is there as usual. And 02:01:48.779 --> 02:01:54.560 nothing gets done. Nothing gets done. The infrastructure 02:01:54.560 --> 02:02:05.340 hasn't moved on in 20 years. So the media are 02:02:05.340 --> 02:02:11.770 obsessed with... Blaming somebody about their 02:02:11.770 --> 02:02:17.029 own agenda. Again, who do they go for? The soldiers 02:02:17.029 --> 02:02:23.310 on the ground. The troops. Privates. That have 02:02:23.310 --> 02:02:29.750 nobody to fight for them. No senior officers. 02:02:30.109 --> 02:02:34.310 No officers to be seen. No politicians to be 02:02:34.310 --> 02:02:44.100 seen. No media support. Nothing. Just unbridled 02:02:44.100 --> 02:02:49.119 attacks on something they did all those years 02:02:49.119 --> 02:02:52.260 ago, which was unfounded. Investigated and cleared 02:02:52.260 --> 02:02:54.619 up at the time if there was a misdemeanor, which 02:02:54.619 --> 02:03:01.779 they didn't rightly so. But no, you know, they 02:03:01.779 --> 02:03:09.949 want blood. And, you know. It's newspaper after 02:03:09.949 --> 02:03:13.270 newspaper reporting bullshit story after bullshit 02:03:13.270 --> 02:03:19.890 story again and again, found to be wanting. And 02:03:19.890 --> 02:03:25.890 it still goes on. No protection from the government. 02:03:28.010 --> 02:03:39.030 And they wonder why it drives people nuts. Pointless 02:03:39.030 --> 02:03:42.850 effort at the end of the day. We never underpaid. 02:03:43.449 --> 02:03:47.050 At least in the older period of days, we'd earn 02:03:47.050 --> 02:03:51.869 money out of it. Contractors would earn money 02:03:51.869 --> 02:03:56.210 out of it. Hundreds of thousands, millions. People 02:03:56.210 --> 02:03:58.850 like me and you making millions out of the system. 02:03:59.909 --> 02:04:04.109 Contracting system. We're doing a job protecting 02:04:04.109 --> 02:04:09.960 people out there. uh westerners and locals um 02:04:09.960 --> 02:04:13.619 in and out of iraq and around iraq you know it's 02:04:13.619 --> 02:04:17.640 the same as uh um as i say you know you know 02:04:17.640 --> 02:04:24.640 afghan was even worse yeah glorious initial uh 02:04:24.640 --> 02:04:32.140 battle and victory you know and uh ten thousand 02:04:32.140 --> 02:04:36.460 uh british soldiers in Well, I think there was 02:04:36.460 --> 02:04:41.720 about 30 ,000 in Helmand at some point. You know, 02:04:41.779 --> 02:04:48.340 held the Taliban at bay for 20 years. You know, 02:04:48.420 --> 02:04:56.439 complete stalemate. We couldn't make any... There 02:04:56.439 --> 02:05:07.819 was no strategic... option. There was no strategic 02:05:07.819 --> 02:05:14.739 outcome in it. We were just there. No strategic 02:05:14.739 --> 02:05:24.039 outcome. Again, trying to impose Christian values, 02:05:24.399 --> 02:05:35.680 Western values on an Islamic state. Completely 02:05:35.680 --> 02:05:42.140 different. They don't want it. They don't want 02:05:42.140 --> 02:05:48.920 to be Europeans. They don't want to be British. 02:05:49.140 --> 02:05:51.300 They don't want to be American. They're Afghans. 02:05:52.600 --> 02:05:59.000 Let them get on with it. I thought we may have 02:05:59.000 --> 02:06:02.439 learned something from our Victorian history. 02:06:04.659 --> 02:06:10.600 And the days of our involvement in Afghanistan, 02:06:11.119 --> 02:06:14.680 at least there was a reason then. At least there 02:06:14.680 --> 02:06:16.100 was a reason British troops were in Afghanistan 02:06:16.100 --> 02:06:21.000 then. And that was to stop the Russians getting 02:06:21.000 --> 02:06:27.100 into India. Unopposed. And again, that went terribly 02:06:27.100 --> 02:06:32.579 wrong for the Russians and us. Trying to subdue. 02:06:35.640 --> 02:06:39.460 unsubduable nation you can destroy it but then 02:06:39.460 --> 02:06:42.479 there's nothing anyway so what's the point yeah 02:06:42.479 --> 02:06:44.140 well something i've heard as well from a lot 02:06:44.140 --> 02:06:46.640 of people is that you know that we call it afghanistan 02:06:46.640 --> 02:06:49.000 but there's all these tribes i mean there's you 02:06:49.000 --> 02:06:50.819 know hundreds of tribes that have all had their 02:06:50.819 --> 02:06:53.359 own elders and their own ways of being and we're 02:06:53.359 --> 02:06:55.500 looking at as an entire nation where it's not 02:06:55.500 --> 02:06:59.180 it's a group of small nations in one kind of 02:06:59.180 --> 02:07:05.619 bordered country And it's their culture. It's 02:07:05.619 --> 02:07:10.579 their life. It's their history. You know, not 02:07:10.579 --> 02:07:13.979 about business. You know, let them get on with 02:07:13.979 --> 02:07:20.880 it. And, you know, we just create problems for 02:07:20.880 --> 02:07:23.920 them. We create problems for, create more problems 02:07:23.920 --> 02:07:27.939 than the locals already have. You know, it's 02:07:27.939 --> 02:07:32.619 our values, education. human rights as they're 02:07:32.619 --> 02:07:38.619 our values. Nobody else's, you know. If we don't 02:07:38.619 --> 02:07:42.439 want their values, then fine. I don't want to 02:07:42.439 --> 02:07:50.180 be, I don't want to live in a, you know, and 02:07:50.180 --> 02:07:53.800 you wouldn't know that. But why should we force 02:07:53.800 --> 02:07:58.579 them to try and live in the way we live and believe 02:07:58.579 --> 02:08:01.659 in what we believe in? It doesn't make sense. 02:08:03.220 --> 02:08:06.880 Absolutely. Well, you've got obviously a lot 02:08:06.880 --> 02:08:09.920 of members of the British military now transitioning 02:08:09.920 --> 02:08:13.220 out. Thank God we are out of any conflicts at 02:08:13.220 --> 02:08:15.020 the moment, at least the ones that the average 02:08:15.020 --> 02:08:19.010 person knows about. Talk to me about Ronin Concepts 02:08:19.010 --> 02:08:21.829 and what you offer to civilians or some of our 02:08:21.829 --> 02:08:24.430 veterans to be able to take their skill set and 02:08:24.430 --> 02:08:27.810 apply it in a more positive way than some of 02:08:27.810 --> 02:08:29.170 the things that we've discussed in the recent 02:08:29.170 --> 02:08:47.279 conflicts in the Middle East. for a long time 02:08:47.279 --> 02:08:51.899 and uh people have people have tried to copy 02:08:51.899 --> 02:08:57.100 the mo and uh and failed on a regular basis you 02:08:57.100 --> 02:09:00.119 know we're still the only only only company that 02:09:00.119 --> 02:09:03.119 do the the medical training secret training and 02:09:03.119 --> 02:09:06.159 the gun training as a water if they want it you 02:09:06.159 --> 02:09:09.699 know um all those skills are either hired in 02:09:09.699 --> 02:09:13.079 or bought in by different outfits to fulfill 02:09:13.079 --> 02:09:17.189 other courses but yeah When we started business, 02:09:17.409 --> 02:09:22.710 there was probably 10 close protection companies 02:09:22.710 --> 02:09:26.189 in the country. Now there's probably about 500 02:09:26.189 --> 02:09:37.310 all selling the same thing. But it's the security 02:09:37.310 --> 02:09:40.770 world. There's lots of work out there at the 02:09:40.770 --> 02:09:45.550 moment. Not necessarily in... In Iraq, Afghan, 02:09:45.789 --> 02:09:52.069 there is work out there, but it's pretty limited 02:09:52.069 --> 02:09:56.170 at the moment. It wasn't 10 years ago, obviously. 02:09:56.810 --> 02:10:00.750 It is now, but it's a big world. You know, I 02:10:00.750 --> 02:10:03.590 guide people, try and guide people away from, 02:10:03.670 --> 02:10:08.590 yes, opportunities out there. It's got to be 02:10:08.590 --> 02:10:11.510 all and end all of this business. A lot of money, 02:10:11.649 --> 02:10:16.020 more money, in fact. in Europe, in America, with 02:10:16.020 --> 02:10:24.500 the same skills. In the UK, you know, the UK 02:10:24.500 --> 02:10:29.140 is pretty lawless at the moment, you know. The 02:10:29.140 --> 02:10:32.779 police don't react. You know, they don't answer 02:10:32.779 --> 02:10:36.979 burglars. They don't give very little support 02:10:36.979 --> 02:10:43.000 to the public. They can't protect. the public, 02:10:43.100 --> 02:10:45.180 they can't or won't protect the public. People 02:10:45.180 --> 02:10:50.880 have to protect themselves. And the, you know, 02:10:50.939 --> 02:10:55.159 we do offer that kind of protection training, 02:10:55.420 --> 02:10:59.399 you know, not to turn everybody into an operator, 02:10:59.619 --> 02:11:06.539 but to give anybody a set of life skills. So 02:11:06.539 --> 02:11:09.119 I'm getting a bit dry now. A set of life skills. 02:11:10.350 --> 02:11:13.869 to be able to spot a problem before it arises, 02:11:14.189 --> 02:11:18.289 you know, and be able to defend themselves from 02:11:18.289 --> 02:11:29.210 that threat. And it's in the industry, the bodyguard 02:11:29.210 --> 02:11:35.369 industry, because of the lack of police, the 02:11:35.369 --> 02:11:38.510 lack of law and order in this country, security. 02:11:39.319 --> 02:11:42.260 Companies are booming all over the country, all 02:11:42.260 --> 02:11:45.399 over the world. And it's an excellent business 02:11:45.399 --> 02:11:49.359 to be in. You know, like -minded people. It's 02:11:49.359 --> 02:11:53.159 a better transition into the security business 02:11:53.159 --> 02:11:57.039 from the military than it is to go into any other 02:11:57.039 --> 02:12:04.739 walk of civilian life. Whatever people do, if 02:12:04.739 --> 02:12:08.220 they can find a niche. in civilian life, fine. 02:12:08.239 --> 02:12:10.779 If they're struggling, go into security business. 02:12:11.539 --> 02:12:15.779 That's what I advise. For a very little outlay, 02:12:15.899 --> 02:12:20.199 there's a lifetime career. I've had a lifetime 02:12:20.199 --> 02:12:25.279 of career and I wouldn't do anything else. I'm 02:12:25.279 --> 02:12:29.619 still doing it. The phone keeps on ringing. I'm 02:12:29.619 --> 02:12:34.579 starting a big contract abroad soon for a couple 02:12:34.579 --> 02:12:40.779 of years, in and out. It's not classified, it's 02:12:40.779 --> 02:12:44.739 restricted at the moment. So I don't want to 02:12:44.739 --> 02:12:47.079 talk about it on air, but it's a big contract 02:12:47.079 --> 02:12:52.460 and we're committing a lot of Ronin Concepts 02:12:52.460 --> 02:12:59.039 assets to that in the next two years. And hopefully 02:12:59.039 --> 02:13:05.079 it'll go on. the phone keeps on ringing. So as 02:13:05.079 --> 02:13:07.060 long as it keeps on ringing, I'll keep on answering 02:13:07.060 --> 02:13:12.840 it. And it is a good business to be in at the 02:13:12.840 --> 02:13:16.000 moment. Well, I want to hit just one topic and 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:17.739 then we'll wrap up and we'll be mindful of your 02:13:17.739 --> 02:13:19.699 time. But you just hit on it for a second. It's 02:13:19.699 --> 02:13:22.500 something that's strange to watch. Now I live 02:13:22.500 --> 02:13:24.880 in the US, but obviously I was born and bred 02:13:24.880 --> 02:13:29.600 in the UK. Of the seemingly devolution of law 02:13:29.600 --> 02:13:31.859 enforcement, I've had friends that are armed 02:13:31.859 --> 02:13:34.180 response officers from the UK and getting their 02:13:34.180 --> 02:13:38.180 perception of the seemingly dwindling support 02:13:38.180 --> 02:13:41.699 of their ability to do their job. You have this, 02:13:41.720 --> 02:13:45.119 again, this timeline of time in uniform, you 02:13:45.119 --> 02:13:47.380 know, and obviously your skill set is to this 02:13:47.380 --> 02:13:49.399 day still being applied on the protection side. 02:13:49.720 --> 02:13:54.069 What is your... view on the way that the the 02:13:54.069 --> 02:13:58.489 british police system has been supported or torn 02:13:58.489 --> 02:14:02.430 apart over the last few decades oh it's it's 02:14:02.430 --> 02:14:05.149 it's terrible you know i'm relying on the police 02:14:05.149 --> 02:14:10.270 to protect um anybody on the streets you know 02:14:10.270 --> 02:14:13.350 they they are reactive they're they are a reactive 02:14:13.350 --> 02:14:17.810 force they're not proactive force um they are 02:14:17.810 --> 02:14:22.560 there to pick the pieces you know Nobody tackling 02:14:22.560 --> 02:14:26.619 immigration, nobody tackling organised crime, 02:14:27.000 --> 02:14:30.960 you know. And organised crime is sweeping the 02:14:30.960 --> 02:14:34.779 country. As a consequence, people can't rely 02:14:34.779 --> 02:14:38.500 on the police for protection. They're going to 02:14:38.500 --> 02:14:40.859 private security companies for protection, not 02:14:40.859 --> 02:14:43.539 just corporations, billionaires, millionaires, 02:14:43.600 --> 02:14:50.079 people like me and you, you know. And I would 02:14:50.079 --> 02:15:00.060 cut the cloth to fit the pattern. And what I 02:15:00.060 --> 02:15:02.199 charge somebody else is not necessarily what 02:15:02.199 --> 02:15:07.020 I charge you, for instance. I'm assuming you're 02:15:07.020 --> 02:15:10.159 not a multimillionaire. You are correct. Maybe 02:15:10.159 --> 02:15:16.739 you are. But if it's credible in my eyes, I'll 02:15:16.739 --> 02:15:21.680 take it on. And that's the way we do business. 02:15:21.979 --> 02:15:25.140 Yes, it sounds a bit mercenary, and it is, you 02:15:25.140 --> 02:15:34.359 know. Nobody works for nothing. And that's just 02:15:34.359 --> 02:15:38.260 the way the business is at the moment. There's 02:15:38.260 --> 02:15:44.220 no trust in the police anymore, you know. It 02:15:44.220 --> 02:15:54.090 seems to be a war on. majority of the country, 02:15:54.250 --> 02:16:01.489 you know, with a minority of so -called or perceived 02:16:01.489 --> 02:16:12.210 victims of different cultures, creeds, backgrounds, 02:16:12.609 --> 02:16:17.869 and for the masses in this country. There is 02:16:17.869 --> 02:16:20.130 just no protection. You know, you're more liable 02:16:20.130 --> 02:16:27.449 to get lifted for a bad tweet than burgle somebody's 02:16:27.449 --> 02:16:31.210 place. You know, you get away with that because 02:16:31.210 --> 02:16:36.850 it's not reported. You know? And the police are 02:16:36.850 --> 02:16:39.370 just always too late. They're always too late. 02:16:40.290 --> 02:16:43.489 Aren't they? You read about the police, read 02:16:43.489 --> 02:16:46.139 the case history of the case history. They're 02:16:46.139 --> 02:16:49.719 always just too late. And we've got a learning 02:16:49.719 --> 02:16:53.719 curve, you know, the old learning curve, which 02:16:53.719 --> 02:16:55.979 never happens because they never learn because 02:16:55.979 --> 02:16:58.079 nothing ever changes. And it's getting worse, 02:16:58.159 --> 02:17:02.860 you know. They're completely alienated from normal 02:17:02.860 --> 02:17:06.120 people in my eyes. And what's the reason behind 02:17:06.120 --> 02:17:10.879 this, do you think? Following political doctrine 02:17:10.879 --> 02:17:14.680 instead of what they're supposed to do is enforce 02:17:14.680 --> 02:17:21.329 the law. Seek and destroy criminal elements. 02:17:21.790 --> 02:17:29.370 Seek and destroy, you know, corruption and terrorism, 02:17:29.389 --> 02:17:33.989 you know, on our streets today. But they won't, 02:17:33.989 --> 02:17:41.649 you know. It's all about, you know, within the 02:17:41.649 --> 02:17:45.069 last 20 years, it's been sort of 90, 95, 95. 02:17:47.810 --> 02:17:53.270 attacks on this country with people claiming 02:17:53.270 --> 02:18:00.690 to have an Islamic background. Non -Islamic attacks 02:18:00.690 --> 02:18:06.209 or Islamic -identified attacks have had fine. 02:18:06.850 --> 02:18:12.829 And the whole of the British police counter -terrorist 02:18:12.829 --> 02:18:15.719 role, the only thing you ever hear about... is 02:18:15.719 --> 02:18:20.639 white supremacy and right -wing uh terrorism 02:18:20.639 --> 02:18:24.659 it just doesn't exist it's a little bit it's 02:18:24.659 --> 02:18:31.819 a little bit you know um and no border control 02:18:31.819 --> 02:18:37.520 uh borders are porous wide open you know um i 02:18:37.520 --> 02:18:39.440 don't know who they are where they come where 02:18:39.440 --> 02:18:43.540 they come from um every every heinous crime we 02:18:43.540 --> 02:18:53.420 hear about lately is from when, you know, I've 02:18:53.420 --> 02:18:58.000 arrived in this country as a legal immigrant. 02:18:58.780 --> 02:19:05.500 You know, it's just completely saddens me. But 02:19:05.500 --> 02:19:09.280 you have to protect yourself. We're reverting 02:19:09.280 --> 02:19:13.979 to barbarian times eventually. in probably 20, 02:19:14.139 --> 02:19:17.520 30 years. Yeah, well, again, it goes back to 02:19:17.520 --> 02:19:19.620 what we said at the beginning. A leader unifies 02:19:19.620 --> 02:19:23.020 a country and a tyrant divides it. I think what 02:19:23.020 --> 02:19:25.819 we need now is that unification. I mean, I would 02:19:25.819 --> 02:19:27.840 argue that most of these people that identify 02:19:27.840 --> 02:19:31.780 as whatever religion and they're creating the 02:19:31.780 --> 02:19:33.819 violence like that stabbing we just had in France, 02:19:33.899 --> 02:19:36.520 for example, this is a mental health crisis. 02:19:36.840 --> 02:19:40.940 These all were toddlers once, you know. Excuse 02:19:40.940 --> 02:19:44.750 mental health, my ass. enjoyed it oh no exactly 02:19:44.750 --> 02:19:46.790 what i'm saying no you have to be mentally ill 02:19:46.790 --> 02:19:49.090 to enjoy you see i'm not saying like he was a 02:19:49.090 --> 02:19:52.149 little bit depressed i'm saying that with leadership 02:19:52.149 --> 02:19:54.370 you pull people together you forge community 02:19:54.370 --> 02:19:57.670 again with that division you allow this kind 02:19:57.670 --> 02:19:59.450 of violence to be perpetrated it's not a sole 02:19:59.450 --> 02:20:03.260 sole cause but the more division you have, the 02:20:03.260 --> 02:20:05.420 higher ability there is for these lone wolves 02:20:05.420 --> 02:20:07.360 to start doing these sick things that they do. 02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:11.260 So we have a cultural mental health crisis in 02:20:11.260 --> 02:20:13.040 the fact that we are being divided and COVID 02:20:13.040 --> 02:20:15.059 was a perfect example. It was separated like 02:20:15.059 --> 02:20:17.819 it was the trenches of World War I over a fucking 02:20:17.819 --> 02:20:21.559 vaccine. But then you're also, that lack of community, 02:20:21.700 --> 02:20:23.680 you're less likely to see the people who are 02:20:23.680 --> 02:20:26.319 truly dangerous until then stabbing your children 02:20:26.319 --> 02:20:29.239 in a playground. That's right. That's why people 02:20:29.239 --> 02:20:31.659 need to learn how to protect themselves and their 02:20:31.659 --> 02:20:35.120 family and not rely on the police. Don't reply 02:20:35.120 --> 02:20:39.520 on the police. They will not protect you. You 02:20:39.520 --> 02:20:44.920 know, they will not protect you. That's the way 02:20:44.920 --> 02:20:47.889 it is, I'm afraid. Well, I appreciate your perspective. 02:20:48.010 --> 02:20:50.590 Thank you so much. The two books that you've 02:20:50.590 --> 02:20:52.709 written, Spearhead Assault is about the Falklands 02:20:52.709 --> 02:20:55.309 conflict and then Highway to Hell is your contracting 02:20:55.309 --> 02:20:58.430 in Iraq. So where can people listening find the 02:20:58.430 --> 02:21:03.209 books? Well, they're out of print at the moment, 02:21:03.270 --> 02:21:10.969 but I'm doing a relaunch this summer of three 02:21:10.969 --> 02:21:15.569 books. So it'll be the... formulating finishing, 02:21:15.909 --> 02:21:20.010 which is counter -mass attack. And that's how 02:21:20.010 --> 02:21:24.270 to manage yourself and others during mass attack 02:21:24.270 --> 02:21:36.829 arenas like Manchester or brought on by terrorist 02:21:36.829 --> 02:21:40.950 attack, whichever cultural divide they come from. 02:21:42.069 --> 02:21:45.200 And how to get... how to minimize casualties, 02:21:45.500 --> 02:21:48.540 protect your loved ones, protect yourself and 02:21:48.540 --> 02:21:50.639 everybody else around you. And what was that 02:21:50.639 --> 02:21:52.379 one called? You cut out just for a second when 02:21:52.379 --> 02:21:54.879 you said the name of it. Counter -mass attack. 02:21:55.319 --> 02:21:58.899 Counter -mass attack. Beautiful. Okay. And then 02:21:58.899 --> 02:22:00.979 for people listening, if they are interested, 02:22:01.100 --> 02:22:06.100 where can they find Ronin Concepts online? Roninconcepts 02:22:06.100 --> 02:22:09.809 .co .uk Brilliant. Well, John, I want to say 02:22:09.809 --> 02:22:11.350 thank you so much. You've been so generous with 02:22:11.350 --> 02:22:12.770 your time today. We've been talking for two and 02:22:12.770 --> 02:22:15.389 a half hours, but I mean, we didn't even touch 02:22:15.389 --> 02:22:17.629 on your time in Iraq and all that, that element 02:22:17.629 --> 02:22:20.590 of your career. But it's been such an invaluable 02:22:20.590 --> 02:22:22.989 conversation. Firstly, I don't think a lot of 02:22:22.989 --> 02:22:26.209 us hear the Falklands discussed very much. So 02:22:26.209 --> 02:22:29.090 I think that was worthy of taking time to really 02:22:29.090 --> 02:22:31.569 tell the story of the men that you served alongside, 02:22:31.670 --> 02:22:34.809 but also your perspective on policing, on war 02:22:34.809 --> 02:22:36.350 and some of these other things that we've discussed. 02:22:37.100 --> 02:22:39.280 So I want to thank you so much for being so generous 02:22:39.280 --> 02:22:41.120 and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today. 02:22:42.040 --> 02:22:42.719 Thank you.