Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name's James Geering, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show former
British paratrooper and member of 22SAS, John
Graham. Now, John is also known as John Geddes,
the author of Spearhead Assault, about his time
in the Falklands War, and Highway to Hell, working
in Iraq as a military contractor. So we discuss
a host of topics, from his early life in the
UK, his journey into the military, Northern Ireland,
the Battle of Goose Green, War in the Middle
East, the world of military contracting, close
protection, mental health, leadership, and so
much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment, go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
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all I ask in return is that you help share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to every single person on planet Earth who
needs to hear them. So with that being said,
I introduce to you... John Graham. Enjoy. Obviously,
you have Geddes out there, you have Graham. In
2023, what do you like to be referred to these
days? Well, lots of writers have pen names, but
I have an origin from the pen name. It was written
by a friend of mine who did a book called CQB,
Close Border Battle. And he wanted to mention
me in the book. I mentioned all the way through
that book. I was serving. serving soldier at
the time with my own regiment and he asked me
if he could name me by name and I'd rather as
a security measure not have my real name out
while I was with Britain SF so he said can I
call you another name I've got this great guy
who's dead now and he's a great friend of mine
great great great a mentor, and his name was
Geddes. Can I call you John Geddes? I said, yeah,
that's fine. So CQB came and went, and then we
were contacted by a media outlet to would I like
to do a book on contracting in Iraq? And I said,
yeah. And we decided to use for the genre, keep
the name Geddes going, because that's associated
with the same guy that's in CQB, you know? And
maybe it made sense that way. Now, I don't have
a security problem. I'm a civilian, just like
everybody else. And, you know, everybody knows
why, but I don't care. But the thing is, I get
my own name out there, because that's my... real
life experience and uh the book name uh to to
associate one book after the other and that makes
sense so either or beautiful well that's already
the intro we're already on the on the recording
now so we'll leave that because that's a great
start to break the ice with you um so for people
listening where on planet earth are we finding
you today uh this is my uh training training
theater um It isn't a professional studio. I
have no courses on. I've trained contractors,
have done for a long, long time. We've turned
out male and female, probably 1 ,500 contractors
in the last 19 years, close to 20 years. And
proud of that fact. So this is my property. We
won't get disturbed. It's a secure environment
in as much as we won't be disturbed. And this
is where I teach. And if I ever have a show like
yours, which I'm seriously thinking about doing,
I'm learning all the time, and I quite fancy
it. uh this is the kind of place i would do it
i mean i'm in here at the moment so uh i'm at
home brilliant well actually my part of my family
is is born and bred in hereford it's funny that
obviously is the origin of um the sas as well
i want to start the very beginning of your timeline
though before we get to your special forces career
tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic what your parents
did and how many siblings yeah well um It's a
bit of a mixed bag. My parents, post -Second
World War, my dad was in the Engineers and he
fought in El Alamein in North Africa, campaigned
with the Desert Rats, as they were known in them
days. And after the war, Opportunities in a newly
found state within the British Empire called
Rhodesia was created. And great opportunity for
people leaving the forces, making a new life
in a foreign land, foreign culture, and taking
their skills and procedures over there. He was
a builder. And him and his partner built huge
tracts of housing developments in a place called
Zimbabwe. Sorry, Bulawayo, which was then Rhodesia,
is now Zimbabwe. And that was... My kids were
taken out of... England to Rhodesia, and I was
born there. So I spent my infancy there. Dad
got, he was hit. During the war, he was wounded
in action, and it was a closed head injury. And
we knew this all the way through our life. My
mother used to tell me about him. He died at
a very young age. He died when I was, he was
40, I was about 13. And he suffered a massive
brain hemorrhage and consequently had to give
up the business. He got his share of the business
out. My mother drove us all back to England and
started a new life back up north in Newcastle,
Newcastle upon Tyne. So that was my sort of immediate
origins then grew up. a Geordie lad up north
until 17, about 17 years old, I left home. When
I looked up, I think it was John Geddes. Rhodesia
came up, but it was, if I'm not mistaken, someone
who was involved with the Special Forces community,
but he was born in 1912. Was that the mentor
that your friend was talking about? Maybe, maybe.
I never did identify him, to be fair. So I don't
know. Interesting. I'll send you what I found
because when you look your name up, there's you
and then there's this other obviously very well
-decorated British military hero as well. So
I'll send that to you because maybe there's cross
-pollination because I want to say he was involved
in Rhodesia as well, which is really interesting.
I am old, but not that old. Well, obviously now
you're on the back end of your career, older
than your father was when you lost him. When
you look back now, let me back up one step. One
of the myths that I bought into for a long time
until I started interviewing so many people was
that. and this is not a myth, you know, the Vietnam
generation, I want to even ask you about the
Falklands, but certainly the Vietnam, you know,
they came back to being spat on and called baby
killers, but the World War II generation seemed
to be revered. But then when you kind of unpack
that a little bit, yes, there were certain groups
that did come back to ticker tape parades, but
there were a lot of men and women that just came
home. That was it. And they didn't have this
great kind of... decompressing journey to offload
what they'd seen and what they did. You were
up to 13. Did you get any glimpse of the impact
of your father's service for this country, whether
it was physically or mentally? Mostly through
my mother, because he was pretty compromised.
In them days, if you had a stroke, they just
put you to bed, you know? And he did have a massive
stroke. My wife, Michelle, in her past sort of
NHS working, she was a stroke specialist. And
talking to family members about the condition,
drugs, physio these days, he would have been
up on his feet and survived it, you know, potentially.
But in them days, you just went to bed. So he
spent six years in bed deteriorating. And that
was most of my life up to about 13. So I knew
a very sick man. But through my mother, she talked
about him all the time, you know, and passed
on everything she knew about his. uh career where
he where he was what he did his his um his character
his personality and um and and uh you know his
humor and that all came came through uh and i
feel i i knew him i knew him like i knew a brother
or or or a father and um But actually, I didn't.
You know, I was way too young when he went sort
of off grid, so to speak. Yeah, it's so important.
We're losing so many of the World War II voices
now. But the mental and physical costs of that
conflict, I would argue, actually has contributed
to a lot of the kind of multi -generational trauma.
let's put us to some of the issues we struggle
with today, you know, some of the addiction issues
and homelessness. And, you know, we, we had all
these men and women come back and they were like,
all right, roll your sleeves up and let's get
back to work. Well, there were a lot of men and
women that were, you know, broken physically
and mentally that needed that rehabilitation.
But as you said, medicine just wasn't where it
is today, where you're able to truly help them
transition out. No. And, and also, but, you know,
Neighbourly support was there, even in those
days. They'd just gone through a second world
war and people helped each other all the time.
Helped each other physically, mentally, psychologically
to come to terms with it. It was a huge trauma
for everybody. We got a taste of that coming
back from the Falklands. you know, we had a street
party for me, you know, brought tears to my eyes
after a few beers, you know, and that again was
a, it's a release mechanism, it's a relief mechanism,
isn't it? And a little street party, you know,
and it was fantastic. And what have I done to
deserve this? And all you can think about is
people that didn't come back, you know, but life
goes on. You know, like people die, people move
on, you know. And all I can think about was my
next move, you know, into Special Forces. That
was my new focus. But we were welcomed, appreciated
in the media, welcomed, appreciated at home,
friends, family. Since after the contracting
in Iraq, I started training and I noticed a change
in soldiers. I've lost count of the amount of
people we trained with, the people 1 ,000 yards
there. It took me long enough to get over what
I got out. But these people, you know, were still
carrying the trauma, you know. And this, doing
the educational training we were delivering in
the PFC world was therapy, you know. And, you
know, the hardest thing was to get them to talk
about themselves, talk about other things, talk
about other people. relax, communicate, smile,
stick your hand out, you know, very hard. But
by the end of the course, a lot more communication,
because bodyguarding is all about communication,
you know. And, you know, we like to think we've
made quite a difference in our own way. And their
reception was completely different. You know,
the media reception was quite different. The
local reception was quite different. Very, very,
very polarized. You know, nothing united, nothing
united. And that was the main difference between,
I can see with Iraq, Afghanistan, and us. returning
from the falcon islands you know uh even even
in them in those days northern ireland you know
which was a dirty bloody war and uh um now you
know it's prosecute soldiers time you know anything
they can they can uh pull up against a soldier
who's in northern ireland you know fair game
to the media Fair game for the apologists and
fair game for the terrorists, you know, and nobody
seems to care. This drives people into the psychological,
the physical reception from people, media, drives
people to despair, you know. You know, I'm sort
of too old and mean now to worry about it, you
know, but you see it with young people. I'm just
not surprised. They've got so many problems these
days. Just not surprised at all. But those are
the issues they need addressing. And then the
rest will fall, the treatment will fall into
place. The rehousing will fall into place. Getting
people's minds and bodies together will fall
into place. And that's the way I'm feeling. I
look at it these days. Of course, they all know
in their heart of hearts that they did good,
that they've got these stories of, you know,
where they made a difference in that one village
at that one time. But you were asked to go on
this mission with this, you know, flag on your
shoulder. And then all of a sudden, the kind
of legs are cut from everyone. And there's a
lot of people now that fought, whether it was
in, you know, as you said, Northern Ireland or
Falklands or beyond, that look back and go, okay.
Were we supposed to be there? What was the mission?
And why now, as you said, are some of our people
even being betrayed by the organization that
they were fighting for? So what is your perception?
Because to me, it's a multifaceted issue, but
leadership... is a big thing. And one observation
I made recently is a leader will unify people
during crisis and a tyrant will divide people
during crisis. And we've seen that a lot. So
what have you seen through your career? What
were the highs? What were the elements of good
leadership? And what are we seeing now in contrast?
Well, again, with the media, starting with mainstream
media, I have no time at all for mainstream media
these days. I don't watch BBC. I don't watch
ITV. I watch people like you. I learn from people
like you. As far as a lot of people out there
are good researchers. They reference stuff, you
know, so you can check it out, you know, yourself.
Mainstream media, that's all. political kind
of polarisation to suit the agenda of the day,
you know, to suit the narrative that they want
to push. Very one -sided. So more and more people
are becoming like that and becoming very angry.
When I was a kid, I went from, I left when I
was 14 and a half. I left school when I was 14
and a half. Because, I don't know, I just didn't
get on with school. I did have a bit of trauma
at home with my father dying so young. But people
die. Other parents die. It wasn't a reason for
me to fall apart. But I wasn't an academic and
I wanted to work. So I started work. I was restless.
I moved from job to job to job. And the work
was there. The work was there. We had electric
trolleybuses. Have you heard of a trolleybus
before? Yes. An electric trolleybus. What they're
paying billions now to try and, oh, let's get
some electric. Oh, what an innovation. Let's
get some electric cars going. I mean, you know.
The milk was delivered by an electric milk float.
I remember that. 50 years ago, you know, and
we ripped out the infrastructure for the automobile,
you know, Western Europe, you know, we did. Eastern
Europe didn't. A place like Poland, Czech Republic,
they still got their 50s electric bus and trams
still in operation. That's a fantastic service.
You can set your watch by it. In this country,
no. So, you know, England was green then. It's
a lot greener than it is now. But there was support
each and every way you went, you know. My tutors,
my school tutors were all soldiers, ex -soldiers
from the war, you know. I met in a warehouse
when I was about 16. I met an accountant that
had no hands. He had a couple of hooks, you know,
in his suit, doing the accounts. He was a Spitfire
pilot, you know. And I started talking to him.
And I said, how did you lose your hands? Because
you're in a kid. You ask questions like that,
don't you? How did you lose your hands? Then
he went down as a Spitfire pilot. I got shut
down and got my hands badly burnt and had to
come off. And he said, you know, he's just a
matter of fact, really a matter of fact about
it. He knew Douglas Bader, didn't like him. And
the other famous pilot, Second World War, Hurricane
pilot. And there was support everywhere, everywhere
you went. And I was just a raghouse going nowhere.
But work was there and support was there. But
now it seems to be you have to fight for liberty
these days. It's an uphill struggle to speak
freely, to think freely. and leads to today's
problems. Pivotal, pivotal sort of areas of my
life was obviously, you know, first of all, having
my kids, hugely pivotal. Before that, I met,
you know, I did a year at drama school, Newcastle
Council. I said, you know, I want to go to drama
school. You know, I was 17. and I wanted to be
an actor, you know? Another sort of rip -out
page I just thought up, and said, yeah, how much
is it? Wrote me a cheque, wrote me a cheque,
and that was it. Go to local council, you know?
Birmingham School of Speech and Drama, I met,
near the end of my time there, I met an actor
called Dirk Bogard. who was associated, he was
a signaller in the Paras. I think he was on somewhere
like Plymouth's Old Bridge. Back home. And inspirational.
A sort of inspirational person. That prompted
me to join the Paras. You know, so I left drama
school at 18. By the time I was 19, I was a serving
paratrooper. You know? In probably two years
into that, around about 77, I got called into
the CO's office. He said, Graham, you've been,
I don't know what this is, I don't know what
this is about, but you've been drafted. And I
said, drafted where? And he said, you've been
drafted to the Rhodesian Light Infantry. I said,
who? And he said, Rhodesia Infantry. It's a unit
that's fighting in Rhodesia. And I was just confounded.
He said, look, I'm going to say no. That's the
law because you're already serving in the British
Army. But your mother didn't get you naturalised
when you came back from... ..Britannia, you know?
It was some kind of inheritance sort of clause
you had to go through in them days to get signed
off back to Britain. You know, you can only inherit
your... ..your nationality once, you know? So
that hadn't been done. So I hadn't inherited
the British nationality. So I had to physically
get on to my mother and me and her went down
to the council and registered, you know, and
brought me into the line properly. So I could
have been fighting. If I had been serving somewhere,
I would have been drafted to the Rhodesian army,
you know. which was a fearsome airborne fighting
unit at the time. But that's real fun there.
While we're on that subject, you spent 13 years
in Rhodesia, then you moved to Newcastle. I would
imagine there was quite a contrast there between
those two places on planet Earth. I was younger
than that. I was an infant when we came back.
Oh, okay. I misunderstood. Yeah, yeah. But when
I was 13, my father died. Okay. And we were,
you know, my mother made a fair amount of money
from the business. She wasn't a business lady,
you know, normal human being. And the shop, the
shops that she bought didn't go well. The apartment
she bought didn't go very well and ended up in
a council house. which everybody else was in,
no big deal there. But the council house in them
days didn't have a lot in there, outside toilets,
etc. So those were the roots. But I did look
around me and I thought, I've got to get out
of here. That was the main thing. There was nothing
there for me. I love Newcastle and I love Geordie
people, but there was just nothing there for
me. I had to... I felt in my heart, to progress,
I've got to get away. I think that's a lot of
soldiers' story, is getting away from where you
are, what you're doing, and finding something
else. And once you find it, you know that's for
you. And that's how I felt when joining the Parachute
Regiment. Now, did you find yourself deployed
anywhere before the Falklands? Lowland Island.
Okay. So you're a young lad from Newcastle. Now
you're in this crazy conflict, which I've talked
about this a lot. When people ask me, you know,
where are you from? I'm like, I'm from... There's
so many definitions for where we're from. You've
got England or the Britain or the UK. But to
me, those two pebbles in the middle of the Atlantic,
that's where I'm from. They're all my people.
So it was crazy growing up as a young Englishman,
seeing neighbors murdering each other, partly
from the UK side, partly from the religious side.
So what was that like for you, a young, young
para being sent to basically our homeland? and
being immersed in that horrendous violence that
you were seeing. It's a strange sort of experience
because they are the same people. It could be
the north of England, it could be the south of
England, exactly the same culture and exactly
the same language and look. sometimes the same
religion, Catholic or Protestant, depending on
what you were at the time. With no political
affinity, only the Red Beret and the soldiers
that are there with you. It's your duty to protect
each other. in that situation. And up to that
point, it was quite hairy. It was quite hairy
all the way through the early days. Between the
70s and 80s, it was quite hairy. I did about
four tours over there, four six -month tours.
And then... in and out of the country, you know.
So it's six months in that role. And it's basically
aid to the civil power. That's what it comes
under as far as the MWD is concerned, aid to
the civil power. So you can mobilize troops anywhere
in the country as long as it's aid to the civil
power, you know. The civil power. have jurisdiction
over you, you know, to carry out for their benefit.
And when the British went out there late 60s,
we were there to defend Catholics, you know,
from Protestant terrorism. Or, you know... There
was a lot of sectarian killings going on. Majority
was against Catholic people, Catholic side of
the community. And we went out there specifically
to protect the Catholics, you know, and which
turned into a Republican type of operation, you
know. So there was the confusion straight away.
We weren't politically motivated. They were just
people, as far as we could see, as far as we
knew. And we were defending somebody against
somebody else, but those somebody else were the
same people as us anyway. Was it terrorism? Was
it crime? Was it sectarianism? So total confusion
as far as, identifying the reason you you are
there you know so you had to you you had to uh
justify it by if you get shot at you shoot back
simple as that we did the thought process didn't
go any further than that you know um um the the
uh and in the 70s of course the the pyro were
kind of reborn from the from the irish republican
army um and and they become they started becoming
a uh a a formidable terrorist force you know
all over the province all over the uk and abroad
you know wherever british interests were you
find ira as they divide they they work with libyans
they work with Islamic terrorist organisations
abroad and all to the cause of a united Ireland
and fighting against British soldiers. And they
were no slouches. They were very good. They were
very good at their job. That's about it. It went
on for another two years. Another 10 years. I
think it ended when? 90 -something, officially.
Whenever the official ending of the troubles
was declared by the Good Friday Agreement. So
what was interesting to me, when I... I grew
up on a farm. It was right next to an MOD base.
So we would literally have to check under our
cars in this little farm in the west of England
because there could be something placed there
that would try and maybe permeate the fence there.
So I remember sweeping under the car for bombs
when I was a schoolboy. Now, was there a high
chance? Who knows? I mean, none of us knew at
that point. They were blowing up shopping centers
and killing women and children in certain isolated
events. But what was interesting is around that
time, I remember Mickey Rourke did a film about
the IRA and then supposedly donated all his proceeds
from that film to the IRA. That was, again, how
do I know? But that was what was reported. But
there was this kind of admiration for these Irish
freedom fighters in the US. And then we start
getting more terrorist attacks. It was the first
World Trade Center attack and obviously 9 -11
was the big one. And I can't help but think,
Part of the demise of that terrorism in the UK
was lack of funding and support from a lot of
groups in the US. What's your perception of that
philosophy? Well, it's true. It's a case of...
That was about the only thing Tony Blair got
right. He said, you know... particularly Boston,
quite a few. Even going back to 1940s, 50s, American
movie stars with a perception of Irishness from
their great -great -great -great -grandfather,
you know, sending millions over there, you know,
towards, you know, for the aim, for the cause.
Joe Kennedy, you know? Joe Kennedy made himself
rich from buying Irish whiskey and selling Thompson
machine guns way before our time, you know? And
becoming a very rich man through it. And of course,
again, Irish descent of Irish descent and that
same kind of... Republican sympathy. The big
funding came from Boston, mostly Boston, but
all over the States. St. Patrick's Day was a
big crowdfunding event, and it was costing people
lives. And then the war on terror came, and it
was an old Blair. was asked to join the war on
terror. And he said, yeah, we'll join your cause.
But, you know, one thing has to change. And that's
the funding of the IRA, you know. And rumor has
it that the funding stopped or was outlawed in
the United States so that the British would fight
in the war on terror, you know. And that makes
a lot of sense because it's outlawed to this
day. Yeah. Well, I think that's what happened
is that people realize what terrorism actually
feels like. And there's nothing patriotic or
Hollywood -esque about it. It's horrendous. So
when it happened on our doorstep here in the
US now, I think people really saw the ugly side
of what it is. When you reverse engineer the
troubles in Ireland, of course, the English did
some horrific things in our history. Some of
our forefathers and some of the things that we
did to the Irish. But that's, again, not modern
day. It's another century. It's nothing to do
with me and you. Exactly. Me and you would never
even dream about being that sort of ignorant
or destructive. But the hate is... It still goes
on today. It's not a great place to be now. Belfast
is a fantastic place, but me and you couldn't
walk down the Falls Road. In Irish, we couldn't
walk in a Republican bar. We take our lives in
our hands. We at least get a good kick in. I
walked in there. and they knew all about me,
I'd be killed. I'd be on the next casualty list.
Well, they would. So the other side of this whole
issue with war is we tar... Everyone with the
same brush. So Afghanistan, we're at war with
Afghanistan. The reality is the Afghani people
are being oppressed by extremists in their country,
and that is who the allied nations were trying
to take care of. What did you see as far as the
average person in Northern Ireland trying to
negotiate life with the troubles that were going
on? Yeah, I mean, the communities were so tight.
and so divided and so polarised. And they hated
each other with a passion. You know, absolutely
hated each other. We couldn't understand the
hate. You know, we just could not understand
the hate. Not everybody, but enough to make a
difference. Enough to keep the cauldron boiling,
you know. And it was a really sort of difficult
situation for a soldier. especially combat soldiers
like paratroopers, it's not their role. It's
a policing role. But the police have all lost
control, hence the civil power out there, supported
by soldiers, you know. And you don't, it's a
different, you know, you're either a soldier
or you're a policeman. You can't do both. You
can't be both. You know, somebody shoots at you,
you shoot back. You know, people get killed.
If there is cartel damage, then it's the fog
of war, as far as I'm concerned. You know? Today,
there is no fog of war. You're right or you're
wrong in your opinion today. not 70 years ago
or 50 years ago or 60 years ago, you know, people
are putting themselves in situations that happened
70, 50 years ago, you know, and trying to take
down 70 -year -old men, you know, for being something
that happened, which resulted in a death, maybe
by their hand, in... a contact, in a kinetic
contact, and you're going to shoulder all of
the blame. No politicians, no senior officers,
no officers on the ground, just you, just you.
It's a hell of a responsibility, you know. The
media, on you, it's your fault, you pulled the
trigger. as if you were a killer, as if you were
a murderer, not a killer, a murderer. You know,
that's what's wrong today. You know, those that,
you know, the Good Pride Agreement achieved two
things. You know, it achieved the release of
hundreds of convicted terrorists and incarceration
of... former British soldiers on niff -napping
trivia that was tried and tested at the time
and information that was finally flawed and they
were released 40 years ago after the inquiries
you know so they reinvent the inquiry to make
you guilty it's a lie it's fake it's a lie you
know Brought along by political narrative, you
know. And I 100 % believe that. And it wasn't
the Good Friday agreements. You know, the IRA
came to the table. Not the other way around.
And they couldn't afford the attrition. You know.
They were losing too many people. They just could
not afford the attrition. And no insurgency group
can. And better to negotiate than fade away.
As far as they're concerned. People like Gerry
Adams, genius. in turning the situation into
their favour. You know? And they were convicted
terrorists years ago, years before. And ended
up in Parliament. You know? And, you know...
The way you construct words, sentences, fantastic.
And shifting the blame. It's never the Republican
soldiers' fault. Never the Republican army's
fault. It's always the British army's fault.
They shouldn't have been there in the first place.
On their own soil, you know? It's a British state.
The vast majority of people wanted to remain
that way in Northern Ireland, you know? And only
the Irish people can, only the Northern Irish
people can decide that. If they decide they want
a Knight Island, a Knight Island. I'm not sure
the Republic of Ireland is interested in inheriting
that problem. They aren't interested. But when
you talk about the media, one thing that pops
into my head from my profession, but in the UK,
is the Grenfell fire. So many firefighters responded
to that, laid their lives on the line. I had
Ricky Nuttall on. He and his partner made it
all the way to the top. I mean, they were rescuing
countless people from that tower. And the whole
reason that that was even an issue was the lack
of maintenance, the cladding they put on the
outside. to this day, is still dragging the fire
brigade through the mud. And Danny Cotton, who
was the chief at the time, I mean, she's been
the scapegoat. That department did nothing but
selfless rescue, and the people actually responsible
are still not being held responsible. Yeah, of
course they are. And that was the councils, the
governments. The government are responsible.
You know, chief councils, the local chief council
was responsible for all those deaths. Nobody
else, you know. And, you know, there's places
all over the country like that. And they will
turn, the media will turn, the media, the political
classes, the left wing apologists, all and sundry,
will turn the problem around and blame somebody
else. They will blame... the heroes you know
and uh for the death of the victims and not the
perpetrators you know because they are the perpetrators
you know absolutely labor serials cheap councils
gutless governments you know that's just the
way where it is today well speaking of selfless
service you finish your tours in in um Northern
Ireland. Walk me through the beginning of the
Falklands conflict, you know, what you saw as
far as the preparation and then let's get to,
you know, you finding yourself on Goose Green.
Well, yeah, I was, do you remember telegrams?
I do, yes. I'm that old. Well, everybody in Tupac,
I got a telegram to say, We were Spearhead Battalion.
We were just about ending our tour of Spearhead
Battalion, which is, if anything happens, we'll
find airborne brigade at the time. And if anything
happens, you know. We were all packed and ready
to go, subject to contact with people on a, if
they're on leave, they're in barracks, that's
fine, they're there, if they're on leave, a telegram.
And I was at home on leave. Shortly to take over
from us was the Angolan Regiment as spearhead.
Italian. And that was sort of, we were almost
in the transition. I got the call. I reported
back. I was late because the telegram was late.
And I got called into the OC's office, the company
commander's office. I was, you know, got it.
a strip torn out of my house, you know, for being
late. And he said, no, you know, go get your
guys ready. You're lucky you didn't miss it,
you know. And so we started getting equipment
together, getting ready. And it all happened
very quickly, within days. uh the deployments
the the uh we got the last night you know the
whole battalion was was was on the square uh
with a threat you know i think it was the weekend
before or something and uh we knew it was happening
and uh they said if we if we have one piece of
trouble downtown um one person is in jail you
know you'd be taken off the roster and you won't
be going. So we're heading for the Falcons and
last night to have a drink and we were warned
if anybody got into trouble you won't be going.
And that was the most quiet night Aldershot has
ever seen in its history. Because everybody wanted
to go. We had our respective marching orders
mounted up on the Norland, which was a sea -going
vehicle ferry. It wasn't an ocean -going liner.
It was a cross -channel ferry that ferried cars
in it. That was ferrying a battalion of equipment
and soldiers. It was... Planning, preparation,
packing kit, unpacking kit on the way down there.
The bar was open. I think after we, as I recall,
left the equator, the closer we got, the less
we drank, you know. But it was still on tap a
few days before it was closed. And just taking
it quite easy, really, taking it quite in our
stride, you know. Most of us thought it's never
going to happen. The Argentinians will jack before
we get motoring. And it only ever hit us, it
only really hit us, when the Exocet struck the
first ship. And that went down. And then we knew
it was... It was really on, you know, we were
going, you know, so it started to focus everybody's
attention, you know. We were a patrol element.
We were the patrol company, which was in Emden.
We didn't have pathfinders in those days. We
got a separate pathfinder unit to do that kind
of brigade reconnaissance operation. We didn't
have that then. patrol companies within those
companies, platoons and patrols. So they were
all fed guys, tended to be older guys, you know,
drawn from the rifle companies to do a decent
selection within the patrol companies. We were
kind of specialists within the battalion on reconnaissance
and infiltration. Our infiltration method was
high -altitude, low -opening parachuting into
drop zones, manning drop zones, and then consequently
bringing in battalions, you know, on our sort
of safe zone. So we were, you know, a battalion
asset. So we were available to anybody in the
battalion, as I said. And we were used by the
various different people on the ground, on the
falcons, as their patrol elements. So we picked
up a job and go on that job. We landed on a place
called Blue Beach 2. and two para. So we got
off in the middle of the night. There'd been
all kinds of delays. In the landing craft, we
had a handful of landing craft in the battalion
and we were moving around in a circle, in a holding
pattern, waiting for... the SBS to give a green
light on the beach to say it was going to be
an unopposed landing. Red light means it's an
opposed landing. So in other words, the beach
is manned and we're going to be doing it. We
were going anyway. But we just, you know, it
was just that green light, red light. Then we
knew, you know, the light didn't came. The light
didn't come. The Marines didn't make it. So at
night, first thing in the morning, dawn, we landed
on a beach where we didn't know whether the landing
was going to be opposed or unopposed. And landed,
the front of the landing craft went down, out,
out, out. And we started. That's how we started
the war, very, very wet. During the orbit of
the craft, there was a shot rang out and somebody
had a negligent discharge, a signals guy with
a Sterling submachine gun, you know. And one
of the mortar guys in the mortar platoon, one
of the more opportune signalers that had the
negligent discharge, the ND. He got to social
commandments before he changed his socks and
found out he'd been shot in the heel. So in the
landing craft, this guy with his finger on the
trigger with an SNG, a highly unstable submachine
gun, isn't used today, that went off and put
it right into his heel. he didn't even notice
such was the adrenaline and uh all the way up
to such expanse where we had an opportunity to
rest and change his socks because if one of them
was really really really wet changed it and he'd
been shot in the foot didn't even notice so that
was that was quite memorable my uh one of my
guys uh fell into some pretty deep water You
know, you can imagine the sort of the shelf was
sort of could be like that. If you're lucky,
you step right onto the beach. If you're unlucky,
you went up to your neck. This guy did with his
LMG, with dozens of magazines and the rest of
the equipment. Everything was man -packed, the
mortar rounds, two mortar rounds a piece, etc.
And I just laid him down with... for probably
150 pounds with a gear on your back you know
and um so he went under uh you know me and somebody
else went under picked him up dragged him onto
the beach and uh our priority was you know we
had to get ahead in the battalion uh that was
our role so we couldn't go anywhere until we
got his feet sorted and at least a dry top on.
So we achieved that in double quick time and
then started galloping to the front of this battalion
snake as we knew. And still at night, still unopposed.
And ice, a cold, a wind, the mist walked past
this group of... just talking quietly as we were
advancing. I walked past, I slipped on my arse,
you know, and it was H. Jones. And he says, who
the fuck's that? And I says, Corbyn Gettysburg.
And he says, where the fuck are you from? And
he said, patrols. And he said, well, patrols
are at the front. Fucking get going. Got up,
the rest of the patrol got me up because these
burdens were just, you know, the weight was unbearable,
but you had to. And picked ourselves up and cracked
on the front where the rest of the patrol company
was, you know. And our responsibility was getting
the patrols out into different areas of the...
the battlefield to pick up information, feed
back any information that the TAC -1 HQ needed.
So everything we come across, we fed back information.
That was our job, eyes and ears of the battalion.
On to Sussex Mountain, people had a chance to
breathe, to dig in. And by the time it was light,
everybody's still cold, still wet. However, we'd
be able to change our socks, get a water resub,
get some food on. We'd started digging as soon
as we stopped. The holes filled up with water
because of the water table in the peat bogs.
There was very little solid. rock where we were
you couldn't dig through the solid rock so you
dug where it was soft and the soft was peat you
know so we had to dig anyway and sleep and work
outside of the gun trenches that we dug you know
so if an airstrike came in we were straight in
the holes At least we had a bit of cover, but
there was a lot of water, a bit of cover and
a lot of water. Some people built different sandbag
emplacements or pit emplacements just for a little
bit of protection. No trees, pretty featureless
terrain. And we sort of turned around, looked
down the valley and the warships started to do
whatever they were doing. There was another battalion
behind us of guards. way down in Sussex Valley.
Then the airstrikes started. So airstrikes from
the Argentinian Air Force started their bombing
runs up and down what we nicknamed Bomb Alley.
So they'd fly over our heads and heading straight
for the ships. So by that time... Everybody was,
you know, two battalions on their backs firing
aimlessly into the air, you know. It's a fast
green jet. The chances of hitting something is
pretty minimal on your own. If you get a wall
of lead from two battalions, then you have to
fly through it, you know, and that's the theory
behind it. The superintendards were pretty untouchable,
you know, by the time they... You heard them.
They were gone. You know, they're so fast. Some
of the kills we had attributed to the battalions
were two or three Skyhawk, which were slower
aircraft. They were ground attack vehicle and
a fighter. The Superintendents were there. They
had the Exocet missiles. And they were only interested
in ships. Throughout the day, they got, you know,
several hits on several ships and started to
get pretty depressing, you know, watching all
those warships getting hit and none of the aircraft,
apart from the aircraft hit with... small arms
fire and we said, well, where are the Harriers?
They couldn't get off the boats because of bad
weather. You know, they couldn't take off because
of bad weather out at sea. Having said that,
I believe, you know, the Argentinian pilots were
hit, ambushed on their way out back to Buenos
Aires, you know, by Harriers. And once they were
able to get airborne, so they had the Argentinian
Air Force had a high, very brave pilots, but
they had a high attrition rate. And, you know,
resulting in a lot of victories for the Harrier
pilots. Patrol platoon, like I said, was a patrol
platoon who were tasked to go forward. doing
various tasks, including eyes near the battalion,
doing reconnaissance on particular areas that
the attack one required, feeding back information.
You had special forces, an extra bound inland,
doing... doing their thing, which was more along
the lines of things like, you heard of Pebble
Island? It rings a bell, yeah. Taking on airfields
and strategic, sort of higher strategic stuff.
And we were feeding back information that was
going to be useful for a battalion move, you
know, to move forward and get rifle companies
into a safe area that they could set up, ready
to fight a battle. So that was our main role,
which we achieved. While we were out, one night,
we were in and out, maybe 10 miles, 10km's out,
10km's back, 10km's out, 10km's back. We were
retasked all the time. The battalion rested,
but we didn't get a chance to rest. We were straight
out, in light order. bobble hats as opposed to
helmets, no burgers, no sleeping bags, just soft,
soft, we called them Chinese fighting suits,
but it was basically a duvet, a cheap and nasty
duvet jacket and leggings, you know, that zipped
up, which were, at the time, they were gold dust,
you know, you could roll them up small and put
them in a, on your gear somewhere, ready to take
out. and put that on at night and then take it
off in the morning and then put it back and try
to keep it as dry as possible. Everywhere else
was full of ammunition. So this one time we were
sent back out in light order again and we were
retasked. We went out on an ambush that didn't
happen. We got retasked to... head for Kimberley
Creek House and that was the battalion RV. Ace
Jones had decided that, or the authorities had
decided that Goose Green was going to be the
first land battle, you know. And, you know, we
just expected a battle. We were picking up information
from TAC HQ. We fed information back. And we
ascertained that Special Forces had said that
Goose Green was badly defended. There wasn't
a lot of people there. It was badly manned. and
a quick raid from a paramilitary or a quick attack
from a paramilitary and they'd fall straight
away, you know. And that wasn't the case. Their
OPs didn't get close enough, you know. By the
time our OPs, our patrol guys got close enough,
we discovered hundreds, you know. dozens of different
positions that the SF had missed. To be fair
to the SF at the time, they were on strategic,
their job was strategic target acquisition at
the time, which they did very effectively. They
can only do what they're asked to do, in other
words. saw patrol patrol company patrol uh elements
of the patrol platoon um got the the nitty -gritty
information that was going to help fight the
soldiers on the ground it was going to help the
the um uh the section commanders the the toms
on the ground that we're going to actually fix
famous and do the killing you know that was that
was important to me i wasn't interested in what
was above turner you know I wasn't interested
in politics. I wasn't interested in anything
except getting the job done to protect as many
fighter soldiers as possible, you know, and enable
them to do their job and take the least amount
of casualties. So we did that. And the battle
started, you know, in the early hours one morning.
And we, after having done our patrol task, the
wiper companies took over to do the vast majority
of the fighting. And we moved the tactical band
back and went to get retasked again, which we
did on other positions. more or less the same
thing. The battle continued throughout the day.
H. Jones was the commander. He had a timeline
in his mind to get right. He wanted everything
done by a certain time. And we were falling back
in time all of a sudden because people were fighting
and getting bogged down in certain positions.
The support, we weren't getting any support.
We weren't getting ammunition resupply. So there's
only a limited amount of things you can do, you
know. While still fighting forward, it would
have been easier, quicker. if we'd have had the
assets that didn't arrive, you know. And as it
was, the pace was slowed. And that, you know,
for Ace Jones, that was terrible. And he kept
pushing the guys, pushing the guys. And he's
the commander. That's what they did. And we kept
on fighting. A company came across a position
at Darwin Hill, which is, you know, it's called
the Gorse Gully. You know, we recognise it as
the Gorse Gully. The battalion advanced up that
gully and with a company leading, they hadn't
had the benefit of the patrols because of the
rush. The company of patrol platoon was tasked
to do some reconnaissance forward. Consequently,
they didn't know anybody was there in that valley.
And they were virtually ambushed, you know, from
in -depth positions, interlocking or overlapping
arcs of fire from dozens of machine guns. mortar
fire and eventually artillery and death strike.
And that was during the day. So we were in reserve
at the time and we could see this happening.
I'm wondering why they walked into that situation.
But hindsight is everything. And that's basically
why they went in there blind, basically. So it
was a hell of a big fight their way out of that.
The battalion eventually fought their way out
of that. The B Company were fighting on one front,
D Company fighting on another front, start lines
established by other patrols. A company had gone
through some real difficulty and were fighting
their way out of that. Ace Jones and his TAC
-1 wanted to go forward to find out what was
happening. Ace Jones was always push, push, push.
And quite a few officers from his TAC -1 got
killed within minutes of arriving there. until
the tack one was just ineffective. Tack two had
to take over, which was a tactical two element,
a duplicate of tack one. And the H. Jones took
it upon himself to come down the slope, up another
ridge on the right, and it's happened to take
out a machine gun emplacement on his own. There
was other things happening at the same time.
Seconds after H. Jones was killed, A Company
had managed to get some of their small elements
onto a flank section, or two on the flank, putting
down heavy fire on the flank of A Company's position,
and they were able to pick up the momentum again
and fight their way out. So lots of casualties,
lots of deaths, and just kept the momentum going.
We had a bit of a rest after the Gorse Gully.
As a patrol platoon, we went forward and we were
clearing, making sure that all of the gun emplacements
were... neutralized so like a mopping operation
if you like and um um the rest of the company
taking taking care of their wounded and dead
uh it was a prolonged rest and then the momentum
started to pick up orders came through um a new
seal was in place major keyboard and um uh started
the ball rolling um B company were complete.
D company were ready to go. And then they started
moving around to the right flank of Goose Green.
And patrol company advanced to contact. Yeah,
you know what advanced to contact means. You
just advance until you get shot at. And then
go into your tackle. So that was the first time
C company had come under. We'd been under fire
before that. But this was the first time we'd
been pushed into an overt role. It'd been covert
roles up to then, it was an overt role now. And
we were just fighting our way forward into a
position. We'd been under some horrendous fire.
And again, lots and lots of casualties taken
on the way down there. from all elements. And
it was a horrendous fire from in -depth positions
at Goose Green. Artillery, mortar, machine -gun
fire. At some point, two car, air -to -ground
attacks were going in on the troops and got to
a position where we went firm. One of the corporals...
I had taken over as platoon sergeant. They shouted,
fix Bainis. We'll fix Bainis. And I just said,
you know, follow me to the right. We peeled off
right into another valley and close to a position
called the schoolhouse, which was one of the
Argentinians' strongholds. D company were fighting
forward on the right side. B company were on
the airfield. And, you know, companies were intermingled
by them. And, you know, from anybody's perspective,
it just looked like a ramble, you know, just
advancing onto a position. Yeah. Thousands of
rounds across people's shoulders, machine gun,
GPMG machine guns. It was just in advance, you
know. Fighting forward. We got to close to the
position of the schoolhouse. D Company put in
some massive fire support. We'd arranged with
Tom Harley, who was a link man. with his section,
platoon, et cetera, and elements of D Company.
We said, you know, he took our heavier weapons,
our machine guns, our grenade launchers. We went
forward with rifles and he was going to put in
some fierce fire support and we'd go up a very
tight, small re -entrance and assault the schoolhouse
for a flight. And that's what we did. Once the
schoolhouse was taken out, we came under, you
know, that was the furthest forward position
of the whole battle area by then. And once that
position was taken over, the schoolhouse caught
fire. We grenaded it. It had been first thrown.
the building was on fire by now and it started
taking some horrendous fire from the in -depth
positions on that on that position because they
knew that the forward edge of the battle area
so they concentrate the fire on on that um we
got pinned down then and uh couldn't move forward
back left right uh we just occupied gun trenches
that were uh taken by uh which were argentinian
positions you know So throwing out dead bodies
and occupying them with light bodies, basically.
And keeping our head down. Got a few photographs
now of each other. And nothing to do but get
a broom on. You know, get a broom on, that's
it. And darkness came. We stripped our kit off,
threw it behind us. It was a slight incline down
to get away from that... that position. It went
quiet and it went dark. So we took that opportunity
to move back, picking up casualties as we went,
you know. We were told, you know, that was our
orders, move back to A company's position. We
moved back with casualties, D company casualties,
picking up and taking them back, our own casualties.
On that feature, on the A company position, there
was a plan drawn up by the CEO, Kibo, at the
time, to attempt a surrender by the Argentinians.
At this time... We had no artillery, no mortars.
Ammunition was very low. And no water, no food,
no supplies. Nothing coming, you know. And Akiva
wrote this letter. First of all, me and another
patrol commander from patrols. We're going to
take that in with a prisoner, you know, to the
Argentinian stronghold under a white flag. You
know, this other guy constructed a white flag
from somewhere, you know. And then it turned
out they had a, they found a Marine officer,
or sorry, one of the officers spoke Spanish.
So he went down with a prisoner. And with the
letter that said, you know, words to this effect,
you know, we're resupplied, we're reinforced
by Marine Battalion, which we weren't. We have
mortar ammunition. We've been resupplied mortar
ammunition, artillery rounds. It's supplied with
small arms. We have airstrikes on call. And if
you don't surrender, Cusco will be bombarded
at first light. And you will be responsible for
all the civilians that you're holding against
their will. And, you know, the sham worked. And
they surrendered. And that's a fact we can live.
We would have fought on to the death. There's
absolutely no doubt about that. There would have
been no surrender on our part. But this is the
kind of thing that's happening in the Second
World War. We've fought ourselves to a standstill.
And that's when you get people counterattacking
and taking you out because they've managed to...
Lure you into a position where you've fought
yourself to a standstill. That's the position
we were on. We were completely spent. Spent force.
And yes, we would have died on the spot if the
counter -attack did happen. There would have
been no surrender on our part. The commander
of the Goose Green took the letter and surrendered.
So composite team went down, 50 people, some
patrols. A company volunteers, B company volunteers,
about 50 in all, went down to accept the surrender.
The only courtesy was the Albertinians wanted
a formal surrender in a quadrangle, formally
hand over officers' swords, throw the weapons,
they were asked to throw the weapons into the
centre of the quadrangle. The officers were allowed
to keep their side arms, you know, I think to
protect themselves against the troops, is the
word. And 50 of us took the surrender in support
of the officers that were taking the surrender.
The Argentinians started to come out, throwing
their weapons into the centre of the quadrangle.
quadrangle got bigger and bigger and bigger from
a dozen to 20 to 50 to 100 and 200 and 300 all
the way up to almost 1200 troops argentinian
troops you know and uh imagine what we felt like
yeah you know yeah there's 50 of us virtually
able -bodied, you know, we've got a spent battalion
behind us and taking the surrender from 1 ,400
people, you know. And that was the end. So I
think that, you know, we did a good job. Tupac
did a good job. He did a great job. All ranks
did a fantastic job. For me, having done what
I did, it's the biggest hostage rescue operation.
The whole of the Falklands campaign was the biggest
hostage rescue campaign in the world. Today,
3 ,000 people, 3 ,000 British passport holders.
That's the difference between... that kind of
campaign and something like iraq and afghan you
know well firstly that was an insight that i
hadn't heard before especially on the surrender
side i mean i read the book and um you know there's
that one element where initially a small surrender
was to be taken and then allegedly the argentinians
had actually opened fire on on the men that were
receiving the the surrender so yeah But one thing
that really kind of struck me, and we're going
back now to your year in drama school. I spent
a year in drama school. And when it came to the
showcase time where you do a monologue for agents,
a lot of my peers were pure actors and they chose
Shakespeare and some other plays. And I found
one called Welcome Home by Tony Marchand. And
it was a Falklands veteran or a group of veterans
basically at a funeral of one of their fallen
brothers. And this one character talks about
when the doors of the schoolhouse were open,
all the bodies like the charred wood on a burnt
out bonfire. So here we are now having this conversation.
I'm talking to the man who actually walked into
that schoolhouse and you write about it in the
book. So, I mean, there must have been some absolute
horrors, you know, some horrific losses from,
you know, you yourself had some experience in
Northern Ireland. I'm sure a lot of the guys
that you were serving with maybe hadn't seen
any combat by that point. Talk to me about the
ripple effect. You yourself had a street party.
You felt like you were received well. What was
the longevity of that gratitude when you returned
home? And between then and now, have you seen
some of your fellow soldiers struggle with what
happened in the Falklands Islands? Yes and no.
Yes and no. Again, it's people, you know. Look,
I never lost my focus. You know, I still have
focus now. Most of my friends from, you know,
from that era were patrol company. Patrol platoon,
for instance, stuck together on WhatsApp for
the last 40 years, you know. And half of that
number were in 22SAS with me, you know. So we
motivate each other and people have died from
the group. People have fallen on hard times.
And as a group, we've looked after people and
taken care of ourselves. Nobody's perfect and
nobody has a perfect life. People just don't
make it. But sometimes they wouldn't have made
it in any other scenario either. It's hard to
pin down onto something like Goose Green. People
have struggled. People have committed suicide
over the years from the battalion. Several people.
And a fair amount have fallen on hard times.
The Parachute Regiment have a good regiment -laid
sort of assistance department that look after
people when they seek help. If somebody doesn't
seek help, you can't find it. It won't be there.
You have to seek help. That's the first bit of
advice that I'd give anybody. That's finding
life unbearable because of what they did or seen.
Remain focused. Look for help. The help is there
if you want it. We look after people that didn't
want the help. So we forced help onto them. And
that's the difficulty. People, even when they
drop their fill, they won't be helped. And for
those people, you can't do anything else. You
can't do anything for them except humour. Try
and humour them out a bit. It'll help them in
a humorous way. But it's a case of... you know
people have to ask for help before they get it
um and stay focused stay ambitious um and and
and uh and stay close to your family you know
that's the main thing as far as the media is
concerned um the difference You know, you write
about differences of how they feel, you know,
how they feel towards the Falkland War. I think
everything the media say about any conflict that's
to do with the British Army these days is bad,
you know. I think the Falkland Islands was, you
know, part of a Second World War. The Falcon
Islands was the most noble war we've ever fought,
you know? Iraq, Afghan, you know, complete waste
of time. The only thing the British Army got
out of it was experience, you know? Too many
shattered lives. Too many shattered bodies, too
many shattered minds. Policing, you know. The
kind of injuries we sustained in the Falcon Riders,
the vast majority were gunshot wounds, you know.
You're fighting insurgency as in Iraq and Afghanistan.
After the main battle, the main battles are easy.
You know, it's the... It's the insurgency, it's
the patrolling, it's the policing, you know,
and the IEDs, the hate that people have to deal
with. It reminded me of Northern Ireland, you
know, and some of the injuries you get, you had
in, for instance, in Afghan and Iraq post -war.
post -battle, initial battle, you know, people
haven't seen those kind of injuries since the
First World War, you know. So it's a hell of
a lot for a human being to absorb, you know.
So they have all my sympathy. But again, the
same rules. Stick to your family, stay focused,
and do something good every day. You know, reflect
on yourself and make yourself the hero, you know,
because they are the hero, you know. And the
deniers, the apologists, the left -wing brigade,
you know. You can go and do one. And that's the
attitude you have to have. You must believe in
yourself before you believe in anybody else.
And that's what people lose. They lose belief
in themselves. They lose belief in themselves.
They lose belief in others. They lose belief
in the system. And once that damage has been
done to somebody's mind, it's a hell of a road
back. I hope in our training cycles we've achieved
a lot in passing on what we do, passing on our
experiences, passing on our training techniques
and our coping mechanisms. Hopefully we've made
a little bit of difference to people's lives.
Yeah, well, it's a valuable perspective, I think,
especially with the conflicts that you've been
involved with and obviously the roles that you've
held in the military and what you're doing now
as well. You've got a very unique lens. One more
question about the Falcons before we progress
through. Through my very naive and completely
detached from the military perspective, I ask
the question, could that have been resolved through
diplomacy? whether prior to when we finally got
to the point where Argentinian feet hit Falkland
soil, when you analyze that entire kind of conflict
now, was there any point where we could have
avoided war or was that one that had to happen?
It was unavoidable. We have two completely different
political structures. On one hand, we have a
murderous junta at the time, not anymore, at
the time, a murderous junta. And on the other
side, you've got a stable democracy, you know.
And there was no way, there was no going back
for the Argentinian military. The military that
was in charge, there was no going back. They
wanted those islands as a political move. They
want those islands as a distraction because of
the corrupt economy that was prevalent at the
time. And I don't believe there would have been
any way out of that as far as a political settlement
is concerned. The only way that would have been
achieved is if there was another prime minister
in charge. a left -wing Labour government, perhaps,
would have said no, or weak Conservative governments.
They would say, OK, we'll do a deal. And that
deal would have been uncompromising as far as
the Argentinians were concerned. Once they had
won... the political battle, you've given away
3 ,000 British lives. You've left 3 ,000 British
lives to their fate. You know? It's like giving
up Dover to Adolf Hitler, isn't it? And... But
who knows, you know? Everybody there would be
speaking Spanish now, wouldn't they? And would
it be such a terrible thing? I don't know. But
at the time, something had to be done. And Mortimer
Thatcher was just the lady to do it. See, this
is what I love about what I do now. I grew up
as a... I mean, I was eight when the Falklands
War happened, so I was completely naive at the
time, but... Reading your book and reading where
Argentina was at that point in the early 80s
with the killings of anyone who opposed that
government, you realize, oh, well, my philosophy
on what could have possibly been done to prevent
it was imagining two governments having the same
kind of mindset. But when you put in that one
is a vicious dictatorship. now it changes the
whole kind of equation of would it have played
out this way. So I love these conversations because
I'm learning and realizing, okay, I used to think
that this was possibly avoidable, but now listening
to these stories and reading the history of the
events leading up to it, at that point, a tyrant
was not only... oppressing the Falkland Islanders,
but he was oppressing his own people and murdering
them and throwing them out in the ocean, as you
write about. So this is what I love about these
conversations. You can't summarize this in a
tweet or a five -minute news segment. Yeah, that's
true, yeah. It was only ever going to go one
way, you know, and that was war. But having said
that, you know, if... If the losses to the shipping
had continued, maybe if we lost a troop ship,
you know, I mean, things would have been a lot
different. You know, hit one troop ship, you've
lost a battalion of men. You know, you're not
going to get them men back, you know. And that's
600 people, you know. potentially. And that would
have been a huge loss. All of a sudden, yeah,
well, you know, you drop the Belgrado. We've
dropped the Norland. Let's negotiate from the
Argentinian side. You know? It would have been
a lot different. You know? Let's see who blinks
first. We went there, disorganized rabble, you
know, and ill -equipped, ill -prepared. But the
one outstanding factor that I remember was we
were the parachute regiment. We were the best.
We were going to be victorious either way. If
we fought, we were going to be victorious. And
we were. So you concluded this part of your career.
I want to get to Iraq quickly. I know we're getting
very short on time now. But what was the transition?
What made you decide to go from the paras to
the SAS? I was a 100 % confirmed soldier by then,
you know. Some people take up soldiering for
a job, some people take it up as a career. That
was my chosen career then, and I wanted to go
to the next level, you know. I wasn't getting
on too well with the pirate hierarchy. I wanted
to do... continuous operations. I wanted to go
somewhere where I could get more of the same.
I didn't want to come back from the Fulton Islands
and stand on for two years doing guards or back
into a training cycle and never go to war again.
I mean, I've been in the Army sort of seven,
eight years by then. You know, that was the first
sort of land battle I'd ever encountered, apart
from Northern Ireland. That was it. There was
no Afghan, there was no Syria, there was no Iraq,
you know. So I felt to get more operations under
my belt, I'd have to go. where there was perceptively
continuous operations, and that was the SAS.
So that's what drew me to do selection. What
was it about your physicality or mindset that
allowed you to succeed in the selection process
when so many others failed? Again, it's just
mindset. It's putting one foot in front of the
other. People... a lot more fit guys than I could
ever be fail, fail selection. You know, better
soldier than me failed selection thousands of
times, you know, on paper. It's just an indomitable
desire to do something. And I think there's no
going back. You know, it was either I didn't
have a B plan. I was going to be in the SAS and
that's it. I'm not going back. That's it. I didn't
have any plan. I didn't have another plan. That's
the only plan I had. That's the only plan I wanted.
And I eventually got the honour of going on selection.
It's a matter of, you know, the mindset put in
front of the other and not thinking about the
big picture. You start thinking about the big
picture, you know, you won't get further than
a week, no matter how fit you are, because your
mind will be troubled. You know, when you do
selection with a troubled mind, it's just like...
It's like doing selection with a bad knee or
a bad ankle. You just ain't going to finish.
So the mindset has to be 100 % clarity in what
you want. And then the rest falls into place.
I think that's an important part of that whole
mental health conversation as well. And I've
talked about this a little bit on here. you have
two paths. Like you said, there's someone who
we know is struggling. And so their path is to
try and navigate some of the issues, whether
it's early life, whether it's what they saw in
uniform, all the other stresses that we have
in our life. And that's a very obvious path.
And you find the right things that work for you
and you get help and you grow from it and you
become stronger. The other side of it, I think
that you don't really hear discussed very often
is the human performance side. So if you want
to be an elite firefighter or soldier or whatever
your profession is, you need, just as you said,
that calm mind. So it's the same exact tools.
You're dealing with the things that are making
your mind busy. It might be trauma in your early
life. It might be some of the battles or the
fires or the police calls that you went on. you're
then using those tools to address that so that
gives you that calm mind so with the 10 000 hours
of repetitions and the high level of stress that
you have on the battlefield or on the fire ground
now you're able to get into that that flow state
as it were and perform at the highest level so
for me the guys that struggle with maybe putting
their hand on their heart and saying, okay, I
do have some stuff I have to deal with. That's
another way of reframing the exact same conversation.
If you want to be the best firefighter or the
best, you know, operator, then you still go through
the same process. You deal with the things that
are making your mind busy. So then you can operate
at the highest level. Yeah, as a major, the training
major, when he spoke to us, he said that the
longest, you know, when we first did start on
selection, he said the longest. I mean, it's
horrendous mileage on that course. You wouldn't
believe it. It's just horrendous. And he said
the longest distance on selection is from here
to there. What's the longest distance? Between
your ears. Between your ears. What's the longest
distance you're going to have to tackle? The
rest is easy. I love that. Well, speaking of
training, when I'm thinking of training in Britain,
I grew up not far from Salisbury Plain. So I
know you guys do a lot of operations there. I
think of the Brecon Beacons and English winter
can be pretty, pretty rough. And obviously, the
further north you go, the worse it gets. So that
I could imagine would be good preparation for
a place like the Falklands Islands, which is
kind of not too far from Antarctica. But then
we begin a war in the Middle East. What was that
transition, because you got into it so early,
from training in what would replicate the Falklands
or France, Germany, etc., from the 40s to now
we're on the Middle Eastern battleground again,
even though, as you said, your father was fighting
in that in the 40s. Was there a shift in the
ability to train for that kind of environment,
for that kind of weather? Not really. I didn't
fight in the Gulf. I was in Colombia at the time
on other operations in South America in general.
And the SAS regiment isn't about training for
one theatre of operations. It's multifaceted,
you know. So our training cycle and operational
cycle revolves around different... continuous
different terrains, desert, heat, cold, Arctic,
you know, so you're pretty much trained up for
everything. So my experiences in Iraq from perspective
as a PMC, which was straight after Gulf II, 2003,
we entered Iraq from Kuwait into a a devastated
war landscape you know which was uh pretty pretty
horrendous you know the leftovers from wars to
their traumatic corpses you know as you as you
as you moved inland you know baked baked by the
sun the debris of war and uh all the way to all
the way to Baghdad Completely different environment
from a Falcons environment. What made you transition
out of the SAS and begin the road contracting?
Well, I retired when I was 42 from the regiment.
And I went into contracting almost immediately.
After two years in and out of Iraq, for instance,
which was a pretty hectic, busy time, I started
my own company and went into the training business
of training PMCs in both tactics and education.
So what have you seen? Because, I mean, there's
obviously been... I'm sure a huge amount of members
of the contracting world that have done incredible
things overseas, but we were exposed again through
the media, through some of the dark side of early
contracting. I don't know if that was specifically
Blackwater or if it was other agencies as well,
but there seemed to have been, through the war
in the Middle East, a kind of evolution of the
role of the contractor and the parameters that
they can operate in. What did you see through
your British eyes? Well, you know, the contractor
business is essentially protection, protection
business, you know, it's the business of protection.
It's not offensive operations, you know. That's
where Blackwater went wrong, was because they
went in with the impression that they were going
into an offensive operational role. which maybe
they felt they wanted to create for whatever
reason. But the fact was, the fact is, you know,
contracting is protecting people from A to B.
It's no different than protecting, as a bodyguard,
protecting you on the streets of London. protecting
somebody on the streets of Baghdad, except that
you're armed. That's the only difference. So
the skills, drills, tactical procedures are all
the same. And the thing that got me into it was
initially, initial deployments were X sort of
specialists in their field, particularly our
lot. But there's only so many. People you can
recruit are in an operation like that. As the
contracting business develops, multiple companies
develop, corporations develop, you need more
and more people. There isn't enough form of special
forces, airborne marines, the specialist infantry.
that had some kind of specialist skill. And they
sort of seamlessly walked into that business.
But the number isn't finite. So you had to start
recruiting from elsewhere. And this became a
problem because you were deploying people that
weren't trained for that environment. They're
trained in the desert, trained with communication
skills, trained with... advanced gun training
for the purposes of protection. I identified
this quite early on and I thought, well, you
know, I've been trained by the best in my eyes
at the time on the bodyguard business in Hereford.
I can pass that on. a gun training element to
it in Poland or Czech Republic at the time and
make some serious money. And that's what we did.
Well, you made a comment earlier about the Iraq
and the Afghani war being very different than...
Falklands, for example. You've definitely shown
that it's not an anti -war sentiment in this
whole conversation, that there are times, and
I would argue World War II is a prime example,
where we have to take up arms and fight a true
tyrant. But there's been a lot of, like I said
earlier, a lot of emotional turmoil about Iraq,
about Afghanistan, from the reason that we were
supposedly sent there initially to... what should
have been seemingly a short conflict with a lot
of special operations communities and then you
know leaving again versus the 20 years that we
stayed in afghanistan so contrasting falklands
you know and you've been in iraq as a contractor
for a long time talk to me about just your own
philosophy on those two conflicts versus the
one that you were involved early in your career
uh well the the um you know iraq came from a
political doctrine, you know, created for whatever
reason by Tony Blair and Bush, you know. Excuse
me. And this alliance that grew into, you know,
a historic lie, you know, that there were weapons
of mass destruction in Iraq and Saddam Hussein
was going to deploy them, you know, too sweet
to the Western world. No proof for that. Nobody
knows why they wanted him deposed. Nobody knows
why. There's all kinds of... conspiracy theories
on finance you know with with you know Iraq having
its own currency and not and doing well and not
being relying on the dollar or sterling you know
those kind of conspiracy theories I'm not a fan
of them but you know there is still no 100 %
reason why the Western world moved on Iraq, you
know. Consequently, it was a glorious victory,
you know, very well performed by all arms involved.
Destroyed the Iraqi armed forces, which, you
know, the joint British and American operation
couldn't do that, you know, we'd have to retire.
both armies, weren't we? And then the bullshit
started, the patrols, the hearts and minds, the
indoctrination, the attempted indoctrination
of an Islamic culture to be brought to heel by...
a Christian culture, which essentially we are,
you know. It was a bit imperialist, if you like,
you know. Again, as a soldier, I 100 % backed
the soldiers and the war's will on whatever they
did. And the politics were pretty rotten. at
the get -go, at the onset, and they continue
to be rotten over the years as Exposé, after
Exposé, will pay testament to. At the end of
the conflict, nothing has been achieved. Absolutely
nothing. I know contractors out there now who
have been there since I was there in 2003. They're
still out there. Nothing has changed. Nothing.
There's still power cuts. There's still corruption.
There's still sectarian killings. It's pretty
safe. I mean, you can fly to Baghdad tomorrow,
you know, and we'll be safe. We'll be safe, you
know. We'll go to a hotel and have a good time
around, we can go anywhere at night, but certainly
during the day. There's no reason to attack us,
you know. They kill each other a lot still. This
is from reports I get from people who are still
out there. Lots of sectarian killings going on
because of the several sort of factions of the
Islamic faith. Before Westman, it's business
as usual. But corruption is there as usual. And
nothing gets done. Nothing gets done. The infrastructure
hasn't moved on in 20 years. So the media are
obsessed with... Blaming somebody about their
own agenda. Again, who do they go for? The soldiers
on the ground. The troops. Privates. That have
nobody to fight for them. No senior officers.
No officers to be seen. No politicians to be
seen. No media support. Nothing. Just unbridled
attacks on something they did all those years
ago, which was unfounded. Investigated and cleared
up at the time if there was a misdemeanor, which
they didn't rightly so. But no, you know, they
want blood. And, you know. It's newspaper after
newspaper reporting bullshit story after bullshit
story again and again, found to be wanting. And
it still goes on. No protection from the government.
And they wonder why it drives people nuts. Pointless
effort at the end of the day. We never underpaid.
At least in the older period of days, we'd earn
money out of it. Contractors would earn money
out of it. Hundreds of thousands, millions. People
like me and you making millions out of the system.
Contracting system. We're doing a job protecting
people out there. uh westerners and locals um
in and out of iraq and around iraq you know it's
the same as uh um as i say you know you know
afghan was even worse yeah glorious initial uh
battle and victory you know and uh ten thousand
uh british soldiers in Well, I think there was
about 30 ,000 in Helmand at some point. You know,
held the Taliban at bay for 20 years. You know,
complete stalemate. We couldn't make any... There
was no strategic... option. There was no strategic
outcome in it. We were just there. No strategic
outcome. Again, trying to impose Christian values,
Western values on an Islamic state. Completely
different. They don't want it. They don't want
to be Europeans. They don't want to be British.
They don't want to be American. They're Afghans.
Let them get on with it. I thought we may have
learned something from our Victorian history.
And the days of our involvement in Afghanistan,
at least there was a reason then. At least there
was a reason British troops were in Afghanistan
then. And that was to stop the Russians getting
into India. Unopposed. And again, that went terribly
wrong for the Russians and us. Trying to subdue.
unsubduable nation you can destroy it but then
there's nothing anyway so what's the point yeah
well something i've heard as well from a lot
of people is that you know that we call it afghanistan
but there's all these tribes i mean there's you
know hundreds of tribes that have all had their
own elders and their own ways of being and we're
looking at as an entire nation where it's not
it's a group of small nations in one kind of
bordered country And it's their culture. It's
their life. It's their history. You know, not
about business. You know, let them get on with
it. And, you know, we just create problems for
them. We create problems for, create more problems
than the locals already have. You know, it's
our values, education. human rights as they're
our values. Nobody else's, you know. If we don't
want their values, then fine. I don't want to
be, I don't want to live in a, you know, and
you wouldn't know that. But why should we force
them to try and live in the way we live and believe
in what we believe in? It doesn't make sense.
Absolutely. Well, you've got obviously a lot
of members of the British military now transitioning
out. Thank God we are out of any conflicts at
the moment, at least the ones that the average
person knows about. Talk to me about Ronin Concepts
and what you offer to civilians or some of our
veterans to be able to take their skill set and
apply it in a more positive way than some of
the things that we've discussed in the recent
conflicts in the Middle East. for a long time
and uh people have people have tried to copy
the mo and uh and failed on a regular basis you
know we're still the only only only company that
do the the medical training secret training and
the gun training as a water if they want it you
know um all those skills are either hired in
or bought in by different outfits to fulfill
other courses but yeah When we started business,
there was probably 10 close protection companies
in the country. Now there's probably about 500
all selling the same thing. But it's the security
world. There's lots of work out there at the
moment. Not necessarily in... In Iraq, Afghan,
there is work out there, but it's pretty limited
at the moment. It wasn't 10 years ago, obviously.
It is now, but it's a big world. You know, I
guide people, try and guide people away from,
yes, opportunities out there. It's got to be
all and end all of this business. A lot of money,
more money, in fact. in Europe, in America, with
the same skills. In the UK, you know, the UK
is pretty lawless at the moment, you know. The
police don't react. You know, they don't answer
burglars. They don't give very little support
to the public. They can't protect. the public,
they can't or won't protect the public. People
have to protect themselves. And the, you know,
we do offer that kind of protection training,
you know, not to turn everybody into an operator,
but to give anybody a set of life skills. So
I'm getting a bit dry now. A set of life skills.
to be able to spot a problem before it arises,
you know, and be able to defend themselves from
that threat. And it's in the industry, the bodyguard
industry, because of the lack of police, the
lack of law and order in this country, security.
Companies are booming all over the country, all
over the world. And it's an excellent business
to be in. You know, like -minded people. It's
a better transition into the security business
from the military than it is to go into any other
walk of civilian life. Whatever people do, if
they can find a niche. in civilian life, fine.
If they're struggling, go into security business.
That's what I advise. For a very little outlay,
there's a lifetime career. I've had a lifetime
of career and I wouldn't do anything else. I'm
still doing it. The phone keeps on ringing. I'm
starting a big contract abroad soon for a couple
of years, in and out. It's not classified, it's
restricted at the moment. So I don't want to
talk about it on air, but it's a big contract
and we're committing a lot of Ronin Concepts
assets to that in the next two years. And hopefully
it'll go on. the phone keeps on ringing. So as
long as it keeps on ringing, I'll keep on answering
it. And it is a good business to be in at the
moment. Well, I want to hit just one topic and
then we'll wrap up and we'll be mindful of your
time. But you just hit on it for a second. It's
something that's strange to watch. Now I live
in the US, but obviously I was born and bred
in the UK. Of the seemingly devolution of law
enforcement, I've had friends that are armed
response officers from the UK and getting their
perception of the seemingly dwindling support
of their ability to do their job. You have this,
again, this timeline of time in uniform, you
know, and obviously your skill set is to this
day still being applied on the protection side.
What is your... view on the way that the the
british police system has been supported or torn
apart over the last few decades oh it's it's
it's terrible you know i'm relying on the police
to protect um anybody on the streets you know
they they are reactive they're they are a reactive
force they're not proactive force um they are
there to pick the pieces you know Nobody tackling
immigration, nobody tackling organised crime,
you know. And organised crime is sweeping the
country. As a consequence, people can't rely
on the police for protection. They're going to
private security companies for protection, not
just corporations, billionaires, millionaires,
people like me and you, you know. And I would
cut the cloth to fit the pattern. And what I
charge somebody else is not necessarily what
I charge you, for instance. I'm assuming you're
not a multimillionaire. You are correct. Maybe
you are. But if it's credible in my eyes, I'll
take it on. And that's the way we do business.
Yes, it sounds a bit mercenary, and it is, you
know. Nobody works for nothing. And that's just
the way the business is at the moment. There's
no trust in the police anymore, you know. It
seems to be a war on. majority of the country,
you know, with a minority of so -called or perceived
victims of different cultures, creeds, backgrounds,
and for the masses in this country. There is
just no protection. You know, you're more liable
to get lifted for a bad tweet than burgle somebody's
place. You know, you get away with that because
it's not reported. You know? And the police are
just always too late. They're always too late.
Aren't they? You read about the police, read
the case history of the case history. They're
always just too late. And we've got a learning
curve, you know, the old learning curve, which
never happens because they never learn because
nothing ever changes. And it's getting worse,
you know. They're completely alienated from normal
people in my eyes. And what's the reason behind
this, do you think? Following political doctrine
instead of what they're supposed to do is enforce
the law. Seek and destroy criminal elements.
Seek and destroy, you know, corruption and terrorism,
you know, on our streets today. But they won't,
you know. It's all about, you know, within the
last 20 years, it's been sort of 90, 95, 95.
attacks on this country with people claiming
to have an Islamic background. Non -Islamic attacks
or Islamic -identified attacks have had fine.
And the whole of the British police counter -terrorist
role, the only thing you ever hear about... is
white supremacy and right -wing uh terrorism
it just doesn't exist it's a little bit it's
a little bit you know um and no border control
uh borders are porous wide open you know um i
don't know who they are where they come where
they come from um every every heinous crime we
hear about lately is from when, you know, I've
arrived in this country as a legal immigrant.
You know, it's just completely saddens me. But
you have to protect yourself. We're reverting
to barbarian times eventually. in probably 20,
30 years. Yeah, well, again, it goes back to
what we said at the beginning. A leader unifies
a country and a tyrant divides it. I think what
we need now is that unification. I mean, I would
argue that most of these people that identify
as whatever religion and they're creating the
violence like that stabbing we just had in France,
for example, this is a mental health crisis.
These all were toddlers once, you know. Excuse
mental health, my ass. enjoyed it oh no exactly
what i'm saying no you have to be mentally ill
to enjoy you see i'm not saying like he was a
little bit depressed i'm saying that with leadership
you pull people together you forge community
again with that division you allow this kind
of violence to be perpetrated it's not a sole
sole cause but the more division you have, the
higher ability there is for these lone wolves
to start doing these sick things that they do.
So we have a cultural mental health crisis in
the fact that we are being divided and COVID
was a perfect example. It was separated like
it was the trenches of World War I over a fucking
vaccine. But then you're also, that lack of community,
you're less likely to see the people who are
truly dangerous until then stabbing your children
in a playground. That's right. That's why people
need to learn how to protect themselves and their
family and not rely on the police. Don't reply
on the police. They will not protect you. You
know, they will not protect you. That's the way
it is, I'm afraid. Well, I appreciate your perspective.
Thank you so much. The two books that you've
written, Spearhead Assault is about the Falklands
conflict and then Highway to Hell is your contracting
in Iraq. So where can people listening find the
books? Well, they're out of print at the moment,
but I'm doing a relaunch this summer of three
books. So it'll be the... formulating finishing,
which is counter -mass attack. And that's how
to manage yourself and others during mass attack
arenas like Manchester or brought on by terrorist
attack, whichever cultural divide they come from.
And how to get... how to minimize casualties,
protect your loved ones, protect yourself and
everybody else around you. And what was that
one called? You cut out just for a second when
you said the name of it. Counter -mass attack.
Counter -mass attack. Beautiful. Okay. And then
for people listening, if they are interested,
where can they find Ronin Concepts online? Roninconcepts
.co .uk Brilliant. Well, John, I want to say
thank you so much. You've been so generous with
your time today. We've been talking for two and
a half hours, but I mean, we didn't even touch
on your time in Iraq and all that, that element
of your career. But it's been such an invaluable
conversation. Firstly, I don't think a lot of
us hear the Falklands discussed very much. So
I think that was worthy of taking time to really
tell the story of the men that you served alongside,
but also your perspective on policing, on war
and some of these other things that we've discussed.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you.