WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show

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law enforcement veteran and the man behind the

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resilient warrior, Mike Morgan. Now, in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics from

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Mike's journey into the world of law enforcement,

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some notable calls, working with SWAT, his own

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powerful mental health story, how ayahuasca helped

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him break through some of his own challenges,

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how he's using his journey to help other first

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responders, and so much more. Now, before we

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get to this incredible conversation, as I say

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every week, please just take a moment. Go to

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whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you Mike Morgan. Enjoy. Well, Mike, I want

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to start by saying thank you so much for taking

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the time and coming on the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Well, I want to thank you very

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much for having me. It is an honor and a pleasure.

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So I know that we're not too far from each other.

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Where on planet Earth are we finding you this

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afternoon? I am in Lake Worth, Florida. So for

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those of you who are into equestrians, it's just

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south of Wellington, which is the winter equestrian

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capital of the world, and just about 45 minutes

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north of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. See, Ocala

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calls itself the horse capital of the world.

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So have they ever had like a gang war to figure

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out who's the ultimate horse capital, even though

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that's excluding all the other countries that

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probably have more horses? Exactly. I think it'd

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be a great show. Let's see if we can pitch it.

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A lot of money of all places. Yeah, someone would

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pick it up. I know they would. All right. No

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doubt. I mean, after all, they were... They were

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televising cornhole during COVID. So after that,

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I realized that the bar was so low that any of

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us could be on television. Bro, there's crazy

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shows on ESPN. There's like 19 ESPN channels.

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But my wife and I will watch them and record

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these insane subjects, sports that they come

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up with these days. And I have to send them my

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stepsons. Pillow fighting. The one the other

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day was bicycle polo in New York City. And they're

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televised, which blows me away. One I saw recently,

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which was actually quite entertaining, but it

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was basically dog jumping. So they were on a

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platform. They jumped into the water, and it

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was how far can they jump? And I think between

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that and televising children playing baseball,

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those are the two that really blow my mind. I

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love the Little League World Series, if that's

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what you're referring to. So I am guilty watching

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that every year, and I love watching a dog jump.

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Anything with dogs, I'm a dog guy. All right.

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Well, very first question then. Let's start at

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the beginning of your timeline. Tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Sure. So I was born in North Belmore,

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New York, which is a suburb of New York. It's,

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excuse me, the western portion of Nassau County.

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Nassau is broken up into Nassau and Suffolk counties.

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And I am on the, or was on the South Shore. So

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it was a middle income area. lower to middle

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income where I was. I was on the lower income

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side of the tracks. My father was a fireman for

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the FDNY. And my mom was a school secretary for

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the local school district, elementary school

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district. And I have a younger sibling, sister,

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two years younger than myself. So when you reflect

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back now, having worn the law enforcement uniform

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for your whole career, what were the pros and

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what were the cons of having a firefighter as

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a dad? Well, number one, my father did not want

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my sister and I to become civil servants. He

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vowed that she and I would never take a civil

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servant test. He wanted us to both have white

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collar jobs. She's a attorney. I graduated college

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with an accounting degree. So it seemed like

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his mission was successful. But on the first

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day of commuting into Manhattan for my new accounting

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job, I found myself being super flat, just no

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emotion whatsoever. Got introduced to a bunch

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of associates and bosses. And about 11 a .m.

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was given a task. Shortly thereafter, I found

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myself waking up. My head was in my hand. Fell

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asleep at my cubicle. Went over, spoke to a guy

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that seemed really cool. We had hit it off. I

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said, you like this stuff, bro? He's like, F

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no, I hate it. I said, there is no way I'm singing

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in a cubicle for the next 30, 35 years of my

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life, making no difference to anyone or anything.

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And before lunch, decided that that career was

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out for me. um my dad was not happy about that

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decision um he definitely put a tried to influence

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me greatly on what my career should be uh we

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butted heads quite a bit and it was not a great

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relationship to be honest with you never was

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what was it about his experience in uniform you

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think that that deterred him from wanting his

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children to do the same thing um he never really

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got into specifics other than the monetary um

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He always wanted his kids to do better than he

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did. He never discussed his job with me. So,

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you know, obviously there's trauma heaped upon

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first responders. That was never, you know, a

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portion of his argument towards me that I should

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never become that. And I never had any interest

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in becoming a fireman. Frankly, I never felt

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the pull of becoming a first responder until...

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that day that I, my first day at that job. And

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then I really started going deep introspectively

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thinking about what I would like to do for a

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career. You, I know we're going to talk about

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obviously your own mental health journey and

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again, the post -traumatic growth, which is so

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important. But I think what's interesting is

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a lot of us, when we are at this point now at

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this age, you have the side of the career, you

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know, found some tools that are working as far

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as, you know, moving through some of the dark

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element. I just lost you there. That was weird.

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My screen just timed out. Let me just write that

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down. It just threw me for a second. Everything

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went black. Working through our own challenges

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is then the ability to look back and reflect

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on our early life. A, the kind of generational

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trauma. That's something I talk about a lot these

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days. And then B, understanding that a lot of

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us drawn to. the uniform professions, you know,

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there's a lot of us that have had things happen

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when we were younger that contributed to struggles

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when we were older. So when you reflect back

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now with this veteran lens, what were some of

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the more challenging elements of your childhood?

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It's funny. I never, I thought as. probably most

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of us do, that everything I went through is normal.

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And I never really reflected back. Periodically,

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you know, my father and I, as I said, have never

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had a good relationship. So throughout, there's

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always been tension. And it was my normality.

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But when I started my healing journey, I really

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went back and I started looking very deeply at

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my childhood and what made me me, what made my

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behaviors that I display, you know, use those

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behaviors, you know, just. my thought process

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i really wanted to see like why i do certain

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things and i never realized how absolutely critical

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my father was growing up i mean nothing could

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be done right um he was very mechanical and i

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remember when i was young i wanted to learn how

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to fix things but every time i went to help him

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it was like screaming curses when you made one

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little mistake um you know just belittling and

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you know the language it's funny you know he

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definitely used um I don't know if I want to

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say physical violence, but he didn't spare the

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rod. And that never really bothered me. Even

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been looking back now, like I would take a beating

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rather than the mental abuse that was kind of

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heaped on me. You know, you're worthless, you're

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stupid. You know, what the F is wrong with you?

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It's insane when I think about it and him speaking

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to a young child like that. So I learned to callous

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up to not feel the pain. And that was a huge

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thing that I've taken throughout my life. And

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in some respects, when I became a first responder,

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it was the greatest thing in the world because

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you can't absorb all this pain. So I didn't even

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have to learn how to reflect it or deflect it.

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It was I was already calloused up. And that was

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the way that I wasn't able. You know, I just

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didn't absorb it. I was already trained, which

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is not something to brag about. You know, when

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I look back now, there were so many things that

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I was so emotionally. shut down about or just

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unemotionally emotionally unintelligent um you

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know i i've gone through this journey over the

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past year and a half and i've changed so many

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things about myself and i've you know hopefully

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kind of risen above what i was and changed myself

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as a man frankly but um it just and i think i

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would give my father more credit if he tried

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to be a hard man as i was a kid you know disciplined

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he wanted to you know have a disciplined child

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and, you know, several things he wanted to achieve

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that he wanted to achieve through me or whatever.

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But it never stopped into adulthood. You know,

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when you become more like contemporary, so to

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speak, you become more, you know, a lot of times

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you'll develop more of a friendship. Like it

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was never there till the day he died, that criticism

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never ended. And he was just, I never felt he

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was there to help me. And, you know, unfortunately

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that's traumatic and I never dealt with it. And

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I didn't realize how many of us in the first

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responder military careers have suffered that,

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which a lot of times causes us to go into these

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professions that we choose. It's interesting

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because I think a lot of us, you know, when you

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actually look back, you're constantly chasing

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validation. And it's not obviously the reason

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that you're wearing it. This is subconscious,

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you know, contributing factor. But whether it's

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us, you know, and we reach the pinnacles as far

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as, you know. in my job, firefighter and paramedic

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and special operations and ranks, if that's something

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that you've chased, or in your profession, gang

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unit and SWAT and all these areas. And then they

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reflect back, but it was never enough. And you

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ask people that are in the sporting world, they're

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world champion, but it wasn't enough. The millionaires

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that made all that money, it wasn't enough. And

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I think that validation is so important, just

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to be enough through a parent's eyes. Absolutely.

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I agree 100%. And I have a funny, ironic story,

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not comedic. I went into the fire. My father

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brought me into the firehouse one day. I was

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probably, you know, I'm going to guess 14, 15,

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mid -teens. And he introduced me to a firefighter

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I'd never met. And he tells me, your father talks

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about you in sports all the time. I was pretty

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good in all my sports that I played. And I answered

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him with, me? Talks about me? And he didn't even

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catch on. And he's like, yeah, he talks about

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you all the time. And I could never reconcile

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that. Like, what do you mean he talks about you?

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He never talks about me. And when he does talk

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about me, I remember him. I had nine assists

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one game and the whole ride home was him screaming

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at me why I didn't score a goal. That's, you

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know, how critical he was. And I finally realized

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I'm talking to my wife about a year and a half

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ago. And I kind of bring up that situation. And

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she said, you know why he was doing that? And

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I said, no. She's like, you know, he's definitely

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a narcissist, but that's his way. of making himself

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look better he's talking about you and bragging

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about the things that you're accomplishing he'll

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never tell you he's proud to give you credit

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for doing so but he's using these feats to talk

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to others to kind of you know make himself look

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better and i just looked at her and i said man

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i never thought about that you were 100 correct

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now it makes sense well have you kind of looked

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into like his upbringing do you know if he was

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exposed to similar behavior in his family yeah

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his parents didn't have a good relationship they

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were cold They were cold towards themselves.

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They were cold towards others. His mother apparently

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pitted himself against my uncle a lot growing

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up. I'm not sure exactly why she was doing that.

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I think she was trying to get more attention

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from my father, you know, whatever her logic

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was. But they were always pitted against each

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other. It's funny, growing up, my uncle was a

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great guy, and we'd always go to the house, and

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my father's demeanor would change immediately

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when he came in contact with his brother. And

00:13:10.059 --> 00:13:14.120
it would just be one -word answers, cold, dismissive,

00:13:14.139 --> 00:13:16.120
and I could never understand it. I'm like, I

00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:17.279
don't understand why you talk to Uncle Jerry

00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:18.980
like that. And he'd be like, he's an asshole.

00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.039
And I'm like, no, he's not. I don't understand

00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:23.840
it. And, you know, finally, when I started getting

00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:25.460
older, I started asking a few more questions

00:13:25.460 --> 00:13:28.840
to my cousins and they kind of knew the situation

00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.159
a little bit better. And they told me what was

00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:33.940
going on. I said, ah, now it makes a little more

00:13:33.940 --> 00:13:37.000
sense. But it was just a very, very cold guy.

00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:39.720
And he had no awareness. You know, sometimes,

00:13:39.980 --> 00:13:42.720
well, a lot of healthy people will know when

00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.779
they're speaking to someone and maybe something

00:13:44.779 --> 00:13:47.460
they said turned them off. You just notice immediately,

00:13:47.620 --> 00:13:51.210
like you just said something and bam. they had

00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:53.730
that minor reaction and maybe you'll come back

00:13:53.730 --> 00:13:55.809
and address it. Or maybe you'll just kind of

00:13:55.809 --> 00:13:59.509
change going forward, whatever narrative you

00:13:59.509 --> 00:14:02.350
were speaking about, but you know, he, I could

00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:05.710
see him constantly offending people and he just

00:14:05.710 --> 00:14:07.649
never picked up on it or just didn't care enough

00:14:07.649 --> 00:14:10.870
to change, you know, his thought process. This

00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:15.350
is what I think is so exciting is our generation.

00:14:15.350 --> 00:14:18.809
I've said this a few times recently. Our generation

00:14:18.809 --> 00:14:21.350
of first responders will stay with our professions

00:14:21.350 --> 00:14:24.269
for the moment. We really are standing on the

00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:26.470
shoulders of giants, all the pioneers in law

00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:29.629
enforcement and paramedicine and firefighting,

00:14:29.629 --> 00:14:32.450
the industries that created the SCBAs and the

00:14:32.450 --> 00:14:35.990
bunker gear and the forceful entry tools in your

00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:39.830
world, obviously the tactical gear. That's whose

00:14:39.830 --> 00:14:42.669
shoulders we're standing on. And I think where

00:14:42.669 --> 00:14:45.649
we have the ability to make a massive difference

00:14:45.649 --> 00:14:48.580
is now the human in the uniform. That was completely

00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:52.480
disregarded over this last few decades. But when

00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.759
we really actually acknowledge the domino effect

00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.159
of all these generations and all these households.

00:14:59.899 --> 00:15:01.980
As you hear this phrase thrown around all the

00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:04.159
time, well, the problem is, you know, these homes

00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.080
are all fractured these days and it's single

00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:07.559
parents. It's like, yeah, but no one's saying,

00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:11.360
well, why? Why is that? No one dreamed once,

00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:13.440
you know, of getting married and then becoming

00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.399
divorced and being a single parent or becoming

00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:17.600
an addict or, you know, taking their own life

00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:19.919
or living under a bridge. No one dreamed of that.

00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.299
So what is going on? And I think that now we

00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:25.980
have a generation that are doing the work that

00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:28.139
is saying, I'm not going to let that domino fall

00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:30.710
on my child. And I think that is such a beautiful

00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:33.629
thing because it takes courage. It really takes

00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:36.549
courage to say, I'm going to work on me and I'm

00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.950
not going to pass what I felt when I was younger

00:15:38.950 --> 00:15:43.009
through my upbringing onto my children. So I

00:15:43.009 --> 00:15:44.409
think this is what makes these conversations

00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:47.830
so powerful because usually, unless it's an anomaly,

00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:49.750
and even then, who knows what happened behind

00:15:49.750 --> 00:15:53.629
closed doors, usually you see the same pattern

00:15:53.629 --> 00:15:56.750
of behavior with parent, grandparent, great -grandparent.

00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:00.620
So these conversations are so much more than

00:16:00.620 --> 00:16:03.779
just, you know, talking about suicide. If we

00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:05.740
can unpack generational trauma, you're going

00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:08.659
to impact so many areas from addiction to obesity

00:16:08.659 --> 00:16:13.480
and everything else. Yeah, 100 percent. You know,

00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:15.580
we're evolving as a people in a society as time

00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:19.379
goes on and we're able to see, you know, stigmas

00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:22.360
are getting released. We're realizing now that.

00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:24.759
showing emotion is not weakness i mean there

00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:26.419
are so many things that have changed in the last

00:16:26.419 --> 00:16:28.840
generation but it's funny you said that i made

00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.379
a post the other day because i don't want to

00:16:31.379 --> 00:16:33.840
uh label who it is but let's just say there's

00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.440
someone close to me and their spouse had uh we

00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.080
were texting about something and they had mentioned

00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.919
that their spouse curses at the children quite

00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.700
a bit and it surprised me i had no idea and uh

00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:48.840
i thought it was a joke at first so i just confirmed

00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.950
and this person said yes I don't even want to

00:16:51.950 --> 00:16:56.289
say he or she. And I said, that's not good. And

00:16:56.289 --> 00:17:00.129
I asked a few more questions and I knew, I know

00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:01.789
the person's father and the father was definitely

00:17:01.789 --> 00:17:06.009
hard, but wasn't this hard on the child. And

00:17:06.009 --> 00:17:09.430
so I made a post about speaking the way you speak

00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:11.289
to your children. And, you know, essentially

00:17:11.289 --> 00:17:14.049
it was, you tell your kid to shut the fuck up

00:17:14.049 --> 00:17:15.690
and tell them that they're fucking worthless

00:17:15.690 --> 00:17:17.710
and they're fucking stupid. They're never going

00:17:17.710 --> 00:17:20.119
to forget that. So let me tell you now, when

00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.359
you do that for the entirety of their life, I'm

00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.900
57 years old and I can tell you pretty much every

00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:27.200
time my father has said things like that. And

00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.180
I remember hating him when I was young, sitting

00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:33.680
there telling myself, I hate him. That is the

00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:35.400
way your children are going to feel. It's generational

00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:39.019
trauma. It's up to you to break that curse. I

00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:40.400
don't understand. Maybe you were raised like

00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.940
that. Doesn't give me an excuse. You know, I

00:17:42.940 --> 00:17:45.099
was raised tough. Doesn't give me an excuse to

00:17:45.099 --> 00:17:48.750
go around treating people like garbage. It is

00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:50.450
incumbent upon us, if there is a generational

00:17:50.450 --> 00:17:52.529
trauma, we're the ones that are going to have

00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:56.670
to be the ones to stop it. I can't speak today.

00:17:58.410 --> 00:18:02.190
But it's incumbent upon us, 100%. You can't put

00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:04.170
it on someone else. Look in the mirror and see

00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:05.690
what you're doing and how you're treating people.

00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:08.049
Sometimes that mirror is the hardest thing to

00:18:08.049 --> 00:18:09.650
look into because what's staring back at you

00:18:09.650 --> 00:18:11.589
is not pretty. And I've done it myself, and it

00:18:11.589 --> 00:18:14.470
hasn't been. I think what's interesting is you

00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:17.200
find yourself at a crossroads. You can either

00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.759
do the exact same thing that your parents did,

00:18:19.819 --> 00:18:22.220
or you can say, well, I'm going to do the exact

00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:24.200
opposite because I know how it made me feel.

00:18:24.339 --> 00:18:27.160
And I think it's that turn that sends a lot of

00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.779
us into uniform. I want to be there on someone's

00:18:30.779 --> 00:18:33.579
worst day. I truly do. Whether I'm at work, whether

00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:35.700
I'm off work, if someone's going to have a crisis,

00:18:35.859 --> 00:18:37.839
I want to be one of the people there to help,

00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.980
which is such a beautiful calling. It really

00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:45.250
is. That mirrors how we should be in all these

00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:48.890
other areas too. If you know how it felt to be

00:18:48.890 --> 00:18:51.650
chastised, and it's kind of the same thing. My

00:18:51.650 --> 00:18:53.690
grades were never good enough. My dad actually

00:18:53.690 --> 00:18:57.009
was never. I was a national martial arts champion.

00:18:57.109 --> 00:19:00.029
He never saw me fight once my whole childhood.

00:19:01.349 --> 00:19:05.089
And there were other areas too, but what it ended

00:19:05.089 --> 00:19:07.589
up doing, and this was completely subconsciously,

00:19:07.589 --> 00:19:11.059
but I remember at 18 years old. watching fathers

00:19:11.059 --> 00:19:13.099
that when I was lifeguarding that took their

00:19:13.099 --> 00:19:15.460
kids to the pool and watching them, you know,

00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.299
at the top of the slide, just watching them with,

00:19:17.339 --> 00:19:19.140
you know, sitting them on their lap and going

00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:21.180
down the slide. And I just, even then I was like,

00:19:21.220 --> 00:19:23.660
I want to be a good dad one day. I'm not saying

00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:25.759
my dad wasn't a good dad, but there were areas

00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.759
that definitely I wasn't going to copy the same

00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.279
behavior, but this is the superpower that we

00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.730
have. But you've got to identify. I always say

00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:37.069
it's reasons, not excuses. You're not then going

00:19:37.069 --> 00:19:39.170
to play a victim because you had a certain childhood.

00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:41.849
It's not about that. But how can you grow from

00:19:41.849 --> 00:19:44.130
it until you actually look at it and acknowledge

00:19:44.130 --> 00:19:47.289
it and say, yeah, this was bad. And I was a victim

00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:49.529
in this particular situation. I was a child being

00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:52.269
berated physically or mentally or whatever it

00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:55.250
was. I was a victim. You allow yourself to feel

00:19:55.250 --> 00:19:57.920
that. You give yourself an excuse to get rid

00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.339
of the guilt and the shame, and that's where

00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:03.700
the healing begins. Yeah, and that's what I've

00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:05.099
tried to do over the past year and a half because

00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:06.720
I never realized that, to be honest with you.

00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.799
And it's funny, you mentioned before about being

00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.640
in situations where you can help others. I remember,

00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:16.049
and I hated doing it, but... delivering death

00:20:16.049 --> 00:20:18.450
notifications or going to people's houses when

00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:20.490
they are I remember one time we had to deliver

00:20:20.490 --> 00:20:22.589
a death notification about a 20 year old who

00:20:22.589 --> 00:20:26.170
was on spring break to a family and I always

00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:28.269
remember leaving there kind of thanking God like

00:20:28.269 --> 00:20:30.990
he sent me to do it because I knew I was the

00:20:30.990 --> 00:20:33.130
absolute most compassionate guy in the world

00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:36.450
like I don't know again I'm 235 tatted up shaved

00:20:36.450 --> 00:20:40.339
head but I always treated people Exactly the

00:20:40.339 --> 00:20:42.940
way I want my family treated in that exact situation.

00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:45.720
And trust me, it was heartbreaking stuff a lot

00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:50.180
of the times. And I also question myself as to

00:20:50.180 --> 00:20:52.000
why I couldn't be that compassionate all the

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.200
time. Because I wasn't. I was a hardened man,

00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:56.920
to be honest with you. And I didn't like that

00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.200
about myself. I didn't realize how much so, I

00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.640
guess, until right before I started this healing

00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.200
journey or maybe into this healing journey. And

00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.680
I didn't realize how much I didn't feel, how

00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.170
much I tried not to feel. I do now, you know,

00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:12.470
we're going to talk about the whole process,

00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:15.910
but it's a beautiful thing to feel. But when

00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:17.690
you start to feel, it's going to bring up a lot

00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:19.750
of other things too and get ready for that pain

00:21:19.750 --> 00:21:22.170
because it's coming, man. You don't just become

00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:24.309
this healed individual and everything is put

00:21:24.309 --> 00:21:26.069
in the rear view mirror. Like you have to go

00:21:26.069 --> 00:21:28.470
through, you have to heal. Like you said, you

00:21:28.470 --> 00:21:31.430
have to give yourself grace and you have to love

00:21:31.430 --> 00:21:33.490
yourself first before you can love anyone else

00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:36.430
in a healthy manner. Absolutely. Well, kind of

00:21:36.430 --> 00:21:38.869
going back to the early life for a moment then,

00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:40.869
you mentioned about playing sports. What sports

00:21:40.869 --> 00:21:44.650
were you playing through the school years? I

00:21:44.650 --> 00:21:47.710
played basketball. My big ones were baseball

00:21:47.710 --> 00:21:50.230
and hockey. Hockey by far was my biggest I played

00:21:50.230 --> 00:21:52.529
through college. I actually played one year,

00:21:52.670 --> 00:21:54.369
John Cooper, the coach of Tampa Bay Lightning,

00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:58.250
and I were teammates at Hofstra University. So

00:21:58.250 --> 00:22:00.990
he's a good guy, good hockey player too. But

00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:04.519
for the most part, hockey was my big sport. When

00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.920
you reflect back now, what did you take away

00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:12.140
from those sports that you found as a tool for

00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:17.099
success in uniform? I guess, number one, the

00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:20.359
team camaraderie aspect. I always loved being

00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:25.920
part of a team. I always loved working hard.

00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:27.940
It's funny. I loved every practice of every sport

00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:30.839
I've ever played. Some people hate it. I loved

00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:34.420
it. And I think the biggest thing that I loved

00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:39.700
about policing was that team aspect. I was talking

00:22:39.700 --> 00:22:40.940
to someone about it yesterday, and they asked

00:22:40.940 --> 00:22:43.819
what I miss most. My camaraderie, 100%, without

00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:47.599
a doubt. I don't know if you feel the same. Yeah,

00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:49.920
no, no, it's true. But again, it's funny because

00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:56.410
you have this sense when you're in. that you're

00:22:56.410 --> 00:22:58.670
part of this tribe and then you transition out

00:22:58.670 --> 00:23:01.329
and you actually realize okay within that tribe

00:23:01.329 --> 00:23:03.690
there were the people who truly were friends

00:23:03.690 --> 00:23:06.230
and there was everyone else you got on well with

00:23:06.230 --> 00:23:08.369
or maybe not so well with you know but you work

00:23:08.369 --> 00:23:10.230
side by side and you fought fires and did all

00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:13.930
the things but um but yeah but what i realized

00:23:13.930 --> 00:23:17.549
is that camaraderie can absolutely survive outside

00:23:17.549 --> 00:23:20.470
of uniform too but you've really got to understand

00:23:20.470 --> 00:23:23.769
who are the true friends and then who is the

00:23:23.769 --> 00:23:27.049
rest of the tribe Yeah, 100%. Because that phone

00:23:27.049 --> 00:23:29.670
stops ringing rather quickly, out of sight, out

00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:31.829
of mind. And, you know, it's only the guys that

00:23:31.829 --> 00:23:34.049
you are truly. And listen, a lot of us complain

00:23:34.049 --> 00:23:36.789
about other guys. No, no one calls. Well, do

00:23:36.789 --> 00:23:39.009
you call? Do you call? You know, was I calling?

00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:40.450
You know what, when I was looking in the mirror?

00:23:40.569 --> 00:23:42.509
No, I wasn't calling myself. So how am I complaining

00:23:42.509 --> 00:23:45.309
about these guys not keeping up with me? We do

00:23:45.309 --> 00:23:46.930
that a lot, unfortunately. It's very easy to

00:23:46.930 --> 00:23:50.289
isolate. You know, we go through all this trauma

00:23:50.289 --> 00:23:52.809
and stress at work. And a lot of times we just

00:23:52.809 --> 00:23:55.009
kind of want to be by ourselves and, you know,

00:23:55.420 --> 00:23:57.420
think we're sit with our own thoughts and we

00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:00.420
don't want to answer to anyone and you know frankly

00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:04.279
when you're going through it your guys who are

00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:06.380
close to you are going to see it so sometimes

00:24:06.380 --> 00:24:09.359
you you tend to kind of keep away from them because

00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.980
you don't want to get asked these questions man

00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:12.920
what's up are you bro how you doing you know

00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:14.460
you're obviously kind of struggling talk to me

00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:16.559
a lot of times you don't want to do that we think

00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:20.359
it's weakness and um it's it's a vicious cycle

00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.619
absolutely Well, before we get into the actual

00:24:23.619 --> 00:24:26.160
law enforcement journey, what was it that drove

00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.660
you into accounting in the first place? That's

00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:32.700
a good question. My cousin and my uncle were

00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:35.480
both CPAs. My uncle had a flourishing business.

00:24:35.779 --> 00:24:38.460
He did very well. They lived in Connecticut,

00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:43.569
had a beautiful house. My father was always referencing

00:24:43.569 --> 00:24:46.410
Uncle Joe. Look at the way they live. You could

00:24:46.410 --> 00:24:48.950
live the same way. Go that accounting route.

00:24:50.329 --> 00:24:51.829
When you're young, you don't really know yourself.

00:24:52.009 --> 00:24:53.849
So how many kids do you know that really knew

00:24:53.849 --> 00:24:55.009
what they wanted to do for the rest of their

00:24:55.009 --> 00:24:56.910
lives? You go into what you think you're going

00:24:56.910 --> 00:24:59.470
to like. I thought accounting would be good.

00:24:59.809 --> 00:25:02.029
It wasn't something that got me excited by any

00:25:02.029 --> 00:25:04.029
stretch of the imagination, but I enjoyed it

00:25:04.029 --> 00:25:06.950
in college. And once it came to applying it,

00:25:07.009 --> 00:25:11.750
excuse me, it was not for me. I don't know how

00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:12.890
to accomplish them. I don't know how to do it.

00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:18.569
It sounds like there was some admiration by your

00:25:18.569 --> 00:25:20.769
dad for his brother if he's literally trying

00:25:20.769 --> 00:25:22.690
to usher you into the same career and looking

00:25:22.690 --> 00:25:25.910
at some of the things that he's got as successful.

00:25:26.289 --> 00:25:28.630
And that seems to mirror exactly what you were

00:25:28.630 --> 00:25:30.970
experiencing with your dad, talking highly about

00:25:30.970 --> 00:25:33.490
you when you weren't there and then talking differently

00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:36.289
when you were there. Yeah, this was actually

00:25:36.289 --> 00:25:38.049
his brother -in -law. This is my mom's brother.

00:25:38.369 --> 00:25:41.990
So he definitely put him on a pedestal. And I

00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:45.289
rightly so. I mean, he was a great guy. He was

00:25:45.289 --> 00:25:47.609
a great dad. He did. He was a very successful

00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:49.890
businessman. But it was funny because I would

00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:51.589
watch my dad interact with different people and

00:25:51.589 --> 00:25:53.710
he acted differently with different people. And

00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:57.690
those whom he was very intelligent guy, but those

00:25:57.690 --> 00:26:00.569
whom he considered maybe his level and above.

00:26:01.789 --> 00:26:05.829
I don't want to say he. acted with reverence

00:26:05.829 --> 00:26:08.190
but he definitely give them gave them a lot more

00:26:08.190 --> 00:26:11.450
respect um definitely didn't like ply on he was

00:26:11.450 --> 00:26:14.750
very he had a very strong personality and with

00:26:14.750 --> 00:26:16.730
people that he respected he didn't like ply on

00:26:16.730 --> 00:26:20.029
his beliefs he he was a little more reserved

00:26:20.029 --> 00:26:25.309
and uh you just kind of watch him and i thought

00:26:25.309 --> 00:26:28.109
he was hypocrite you know i guess sometimes we

00:26:28.109 --> 00:26:30.710
all tend to change a little bit in in our relationships

00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:33.269
and interactions with different people but You

00:26:33.269 --> 00:26:35.029
know, I just I hated the fact that he'd be screaming

00:26:35.029 --> 00:26:36.869
at us one second and all of a sudden Uncle Joe

00:26:36.869 --> 00:26:38.589
and Aunt Janet would be there away getting to

00:26:38.589 --> 00:26:40.990
their house. And it was Mr. Nice Nice. Like,

00:26:41.029 --> 00:26:42.650
oh, why don't you show them who you are? Come

00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:45.109
on. You know, you have this fake act for everyone

00:26:45.109 --> 00:26:47.829
else. Let them see who you are. Because when

00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:50.369
I had very frank discussions with my cousins

00:26:50.369 --> 00:26:54.380
after my dad's death in 2020. A lot of them were

00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:55.940
surprised because it was nothing I ever spoke

00:26:55.940 --> 00:26:57.420
about. I mean, it was embarrassing, frankly,

00:26:57.619 --> 00:26:59.859
the way he spoke to me and the things he, some

00:26:59.859 --> 00:27:01.799
of the things he did to me. And then when I kind

00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.099
of opened up to them, they had no idea, you know,

00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.680
it was, it was nuts. I think they almost, I don't

00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:08.000
want to say they thought that was lying, but

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.099
I don't think they would believe me at first.

00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:13.059
And then as more things were happening and examples

00:27:13.059 --> 00:27:15.500
got brought up or, you know, maybe my mom acknowledged

00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:17.660
something, they realized that I was telling the

00:27:17.660 --> 00:27:21.210
absolute truth. Well, you mentioned about being

00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:24.170
in an accounting cubicle asleep, going to someone

00:27:24.170 --> 00:27:27.130
that you thought was going to tell you the secret

00:27:27.130 --> 00:27:29.670
of the excitement of accounting, and obviously

00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:32.569
that didn't happen. So walk me through from that

00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:34.670
moment through the journey that took you through

00:27:34.670 --> 00:27:38.430
the front door of law enforcement. Yeah, so literally

00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:40.950
that day I made that decision I was not going

00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:42.890
to be doing this and started thinking about what

00:27:42.890 --> 00:27:46.029
I wanted to do. Simultaneously, I had been training

00:27:46.029 --> 00:27:48.829
with a guy doing martial arts for about three

00:27:48.829 --> 00:27:51.730
years at that point. I became pretty proficient

00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:55.609
at extreme violence, if you will. It's funny,

00:27:55.710 --> 00:27:57.710
I almost quit so many times. And when he first

00:27:57.710 --> 00:27:59.809
taught me, it was just this guy in his garage.

00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:05.049
He was a year younger than me. And we all...

00:28:05.629 --> 00:28:07.569
grow up hearing this thing about black belts

00:28:07.569 --> 00:28:09.250
and you think these guys are the baddest and

00:28:09.250 --> 00:28:12.309
you know karate kid was this and that and then

00:28:12.309 --> 00:28:14.269
you realize how unrealistic a lot of these fighting

00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:18.029
systems are and he told me he's like forget everything

00:28:18.029 --> 00:28:20.789
you ever heard he's like i am going to teach

00:28:20.789 --> 00:28:24.109
you how to be a proficient fighter and he's like

00:28:24.109 --> 00:28:26.609
you're going to want to quit every day that i

00:28:26.609 --> 00:28:29.269
train you he goes uh that's fine if you do you'll

00:28:29.269 --> 00:28:31.650
be like most other guys if you don't i promise

00:28:31.650 --> 00:28:34.039
you will change your life And I never quit. I

00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:36.019
mean, I used to get my ass kicked. It was constructive.

00:28:36.779 --> 00:28:38.519
I don't want to say beatings. It was constructive

00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:43.579
training. But at one point, my cousin, myself

00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:45.680
and a friend of ours were at a bar near Hofstra

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.240
University. And I heard screaming. I look over

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.259
and my buddy, who is the meekest guy in the world,

00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:52.339
is getting yelled at by some guy and he wants

00:28:52.339 --> 00:28:53.819
to fight him. So I walk over. I'm like, Jim,

00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:56.500
what's up? He's like, I bumped into this guy.

00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:58.240
I apologize. Offered a bottle of beer and he

00:28:58.240 --> 00:28:59.779
won't stop. I'm like, what's up, brother? I'm

00:28:59.779 --> 00:29:01.819
like, my buddy apologizes. He wants no trouble.

00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:05.230
And he's like, F you, F him. I'll take both of

00:29:05.230 --> 00:29:08.190
yous on. And I was so calm. I'm like, hey, brother.

00:29:08.390 --> 00:29:09.950
I'm like, if we need to step outside, let's do

00:29:09.950 --> 00:29:12.289
that. And he's like screaming. I'm like, nah,

00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:14.470
I don't need to scream. I'm like, let's take

00:29:14.470 --> 00:29:17.410
care of business and do what we got to do. And

00:29:17.410 --> 00:29:19.470
he's like, fuck you. And he just like kind of

00:29:19.470 --> 00:29:22.609
walks off. And I was so calm, so confident. I

00:29:22.609 --> 00:29:24.009
called my buddy the next day and I didn't realize

00:29:24.009 --> 00:29:28.890
I had been kind of transforming myself. i'm like

00:29:28.890 --> 00:29:31.829
wow bro i felt so confident man there was no

00:29:31.829 --> 00:29:35.650
fear whatsoever and uh i guess as i'm thinking

00:29:35.650 --> 00:29:37.829
about what i wanted to do i started i don't know

00:29:37.829 --> 00:29:39.890
it sounds weird to say but i almost thought of

00:29:39.890 --> 00:29:43.049
myself as like this package where i could handle

00:29:43.049 --> 00:29:45.190
anything that came my way in the street you know

00:29:45.190 --> 00:29:47.910
i wanted to i hated bullies so in one aspect

00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:50.900
i wanted to stop bullying um I wanted to protect

00:29:50.900 --> 00:29:53.960
people who, you know, innocent people from evil.

00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:56.539
You know, I wanted to take evil off the street.

00:29:56.660 --> 00:29:58.000
I mean, there were a lot of reasons that I wanted

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.480
to get into law enforcement. And I just thought

00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.500
that I was able to do this job now. I'd be able

00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:06.359
to do it confidently. You know, I had common

00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.700
sense. I wasn't fearful. The action was calling

00:30:09.700 --> 00:30:12.119
me. I'm an adrenaline junkie as well. I never

00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:13.720
realized any of the subconscious things that

00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:15.200
were going on in my head about my father and

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.400
maybe some of the reasons why I was trying to.

00:30:18.060 --> 00:30:20.880
into the profession because of that. But at the

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.380
time, I wanted to apply with the FBI. They were

00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:25.720
on a federal hiring freeze. This is late 1991.

00:30:27.500 --> 00:30:30.119
So the feds were on a hiring freeze, I believe,

00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.460
until 97 or 98. I kind of put that on the back

00:30:33.460 --> 00:30:36.220
burner, was trying to figure out other ways of

00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:38.240
getting into law enforcement. I was introduced

00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:40.220
to a buddy's brother who had just moved down

00:30:40.220 --> 00:30:43.440
to Atlanta, and he was telling me how great the

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:45.559
city was. He had worked for Pan Am. They went

00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:47.599
bankrupt. Delta picked up his whole welding shop

00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.619
and then he moved down to Atlanta. He's like,

00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:52.200
it's young. It's inexpensive. You'll love it.

00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:53.940
They're building it up. I said, you know what?

00:30:54.019 --> 00:30:55.700
I want to get out of New York anyway. Let me

00:30:55.700 --> 00:30:57.180
get some police experience and then I'll apply

00:30:57.180 --> 00:30:59.200
with the FBI when they start hiring again. So

00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:03.980
lo and behold, applied in November, September

00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:06.920
of 92. And by August of 93, I was hired by Atlanta

00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:09.339
PD and then moved down there late August of 93.

00:31:10.170 --> 00:31:12.609
So what was the conversation at the front door

00:31:12.609 --> 00:31:15.569
as far as the physical side, the fitness standards,

00:31:15.950 --> 00:31:19.390
combatives, et cetera, and then also the mental

00:31:19.390 --> 00:31:23.829
health conversation back then? With? With Atlanta.

00:31:24.029 --> 00:31:26.250
So when you first entered the front door, what

00:31:26.250 --> 00:31:28.410
was the kind of landscape looking like back then?

00:31:29.470 --> 00:31:33.650
As far as mental health, you and I just talked

00:31:33.650 --> 00:31:35.869
more about mental health in the past 31 minutes

00:31:35.869 --> 00:31:37.769
than I spoke to anyone in my entire Atlanta career

00:31:37.769 --> 00:31:39.930
over 10 years. Literally, I'm not even joking

00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:43.029
around. We had a psychologist came in one day

00:31:43.029 --> 00:31:46.109
and he basically told us, one, the physiological

00:31:46.109 --> 00:31:49.609
effects of extreme high stress situations on

00:31:49.609 --> 00:31:52.710
your body. Then told us about how all of us are

00:31:52.710 --> 00:31:53.930
going to have at least one divorce under our

00:31:53.930 --> 00:31:56.109
belt. How many, the percentage of alcoholics

00:31:56.109 --> 00:31:57.990
are going to develop, you know, all the stats.

00:31:59.890 --> 00:32:01.769
Basically, I think he basically thought most

00:32:01.769 --> 00:32:03.809
of us were racist for getting into the profession

00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:07.819
to begin with. And it was not really a... A learning

00:32:07.819 --> 00:32:09.799
experience, let's put it that way. That was the

00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:12.220
extent of our mental health talk. There was no

00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:14.980
peer support. There was no psych services at

00:32:14.980 --> 00:32:18.859
the time, developed later on. But as we both

00:32:18.859 --> 00:32:21.299
know, that was one of those situations where

00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:23.279
if you sought it, you were pretty much, your

00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:25.819
badge and gun were pulled. So guys never went

00:32:25.819 --> 00:32:29.059
that route. It was just never spoken about. Suck

00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:31.720
it up, buttercup. That was it. That's so funny

00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:34.279
because if you put... a different profession

00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:37.019
that same conversation that we get told about

00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:40.000
police and fire and you were about to join an

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.960
accounting firm and they said oh you wait in

00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.000
10 years you'll be on your third divorce and

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.839
have an alcohol problem you would say well fuck

00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.000
this and you turn around and then leave straight

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.980
away and it's so sad that that's kind of like

00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:55.059
joked about in our profession because it shows

00:32:55.059 --> 00:32:59.720
an immense flaw in in the entire culture that

00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:02.339
has to be changed and you know on my side i talk

00:33:02.339 --> 00:33:04.900
about the woeful work week and both of our professions

00:33:04.900 --> 00:33:06.839
now there's a recruitment crisis because on your

00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.359
side if nothing else it's a complete lack of

00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.559
support by the media and the public but you know

00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:14.380
this isn't something to laugh about it's not

00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.579
a badge of honor to to have addiction and broken

00:33:17.579 --> 00:33:19.839
relationships going back to our conversation

00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.779
earlier of keeping the home intact well if a

00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:26.319
a selfless courageous profession is also going

00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:28.200
to lead to you having a fractured relationship

00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:31.819
with spouse and even children then that's a conversation

00:33:31.819 --> 00:33:36.960
we need to be having today exactly and uh it's

00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:39.740
funny not my uh again in a comedic sense but

00:33:39.740 --> 00:33:42.660
um you know i got divorced i'm on my second marriage

00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:45.599
this one's fantastic i love her greatly so i'll

00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.890
be good but um First one had really not too much

00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:51.529
to do with the policing aspect of it. But additionally,

00:33:51.809 --> 00:33:54.750
I had a painkiller addiction in 2012 I was treated

00:33:54.750 --> 00:33:58.250
for. I speak openly about that. The extent of

00:33:58.250 --> 00:34:00.289
my drug use is smoking weed in high school. So

00:34:00.289 --> 00:34:03.950
I was fervently anti -drug my whole life. But

00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.210
I had been prescribing this medicine for years.

00:34:06.369 --> 00:34:08.449
And I realized when I was having marriage troubles

00:34:08.449 --> 00:34:10.590
that it kind of dulled the pain. So I just started

00:34:10.590 --> 00:34:12.170
taking more and more. And the next thing I know,

00:34:12.210 --> 00:34:16.090
I'm hooked on tramadol. And I'm having our first

00:34:16.090 --> 00:34:19.190
night. rehab facility and i'm crying just kind

00:34:19.190 --> 00:34:21.289
of looking around at the room and i'm like how

00:34:21.289 --> 00:34:22.909
did i get here man i'm not supposed to be here

00:34:22.909 --> 00:34:25.610
stop you know i always try to live an honorable

00:34:25.610 --> 00:34:29.469
life and what am i doing so you know it's uh

00:34:29.469 --> 00:34:33.710
you know i'm not blaming my career choice but

00:34:33.710 --> 00:34:36.750
you know there's a lot of uh unresolved trauma

00:34:36.750 --> 00:34:39.769
that we never deal with and it just gets heaped

00:34:39.769 --> 00:34:43.329
upon more and more and more and finally we all

00:34:43.329 --> 00:34:47.050
have a saturation point it's gonna blow You mentioned

00:34:47.050 --> 00:34:49.130
about the martial arts training before. Firstly,

00:34:49.150 --> 00:34:53.969
what style or type of training was that? So I

00:34:53.969 --> 00:34:56.190
guess like the base was Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee,

00:34:56.389 --> 00:35:00.590
but he believed that you should have very good,

00:35:00.690 --> 00:35:04.550
you know, our boxing was, we did kickboxing,

00:35:04.670 --> 00:35:09.030
so it was Muay Thai combined, but my buddy's

00:35:09.030 --> 00:35:12.030
name was George Faraday. So he wanted boxing

00:35:12.030 --> 00:35:14.530
skill. He wanted you to be like an elite level

00:35:14.530 --> 00:35:17.820
of boxer. but there was so many other things

00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.599
combined. Like, you know, if I was facing someone

00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:22.539
instead of a punch, it could be a chop to the

00:35:22.539 --> 00:35:25.099
throat. Be careful with that when you kill someone.

00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:27.579
Chop to the nose, you know, break that. Just

00:35:27.579 --> 00:35:29.559
a little Aikido to take someone down. I mean,

00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:31.960
it was so many different things that they combined.

00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:34.219
It was a Vietnam vet that kind of started the

00:35:34.219 --> 00:35:36.360
system, and he just pieced these little things

00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:39.400
together, and it works. I mean, I've squared

00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:42.320
off eight times, and eight guys have been dealt

00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:45.119
with without me getting hit in the face. It's

00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.170
nothing. about how great I am. Just the system

00:35:47.170 --> 00:35:49.510
was very effective and I was taught very well.

00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:52.510
So what about again at the front door, as far

00:35:52.510 --> 00:35:55.150
as the combative defensive tactics, excuse me,

00:35:55.150 --> 00:35:57.710
defensive tactics back in the early nineties?

00:35:59.789 --> 00:36:02.150
There weren't many. I mean, we have probably

00:36:02.150 --> 00:36:04.670
like an eight hour block of defensive tactics

00:36:04.670 --> 00:36:08.090
training at Atlanta. It wasn't like you got into

00:36:08.090 --> 00:36:11.369
any type of jujitsu. A lot of it was gun retention.

00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:15.219
I remember, and literally it was like, hold your

00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:17.880
gun in as hard as you can in the holster. And

00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:20.400
I was a little bit bigger of a guy, so instead

00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:22.719
of one -on -one, they had three -on -one with

00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.300
me. And I remember we actually broke the holster,

00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.619
and I had every 10 fingers were all bloody. I

00:36:28.619 --> 00:36:31.500
mean, I was not giving that gun up. But that

00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:34.340
was very, very, very basic stuff. And even if

00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:36.519
they give a 40 -hour block, it's incumbent upon

00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.429
any recruit. to take their training to the next

00:36:39.429 --> 00:36:41.670
level. It's never going to be enough, as you

00:36:41.670 --> 00:36:44.610
know, 40 hours of training, no matter what it

00:36:44.610 --> 00:36:49.030
is. But it was very, very minimal. And it's one

00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:51.730
thing I never understood. I was pretty well trained.

00:36:51.809 --> 00:36:53.809
Obviously, I could have been 100 times better

00:36:53.809 --> 00:36:56.110
than what I was. But I went through years of

00:36:56.110 --> 00:36:59.690
training, and it was like I felt that confident.

00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:02.690
But there were guys and girls who enter these

00:37:02.690 --> 00:37:05.230
professions with zero training and they do nothing

00:37:05.230 --> 00:37:07.809
about it. And I don't understand it because a

00:37:07.809 --> 00:37:09.949
lot of them, to me, almost experience PTSD on

00:37:09.949 --> 00:37:13.329
a daily going to work knowing they are not ready

00:37:13.329 --> 00:37:15.309
when it kicks off. And it's a question of when,

00:37:15.369 --> 00:37:18.349
not if. It's going to happen. There's been an

00:37:18.349 --> 00:37:22.750
absolute common thread between the police officers

00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:25.989
that I've had on the show who are in great physical

00:37:25.989 --> 00:37:29.679
shape. A lot of them are, you know. purple brown

00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:33.340
black belt in various styles and those are the

00:37:33.340 --> 00:37:36.599
ones that have the least hands -on um you know

00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:39.619
numbers basically because the de -escalation

00:37:39.619 --> 00:37:42.340
element of looking at someone and going yeah

00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:44.659
i'm not gonna fuck with that person it's huge

00:37:44.659 --> 00:37:46.539
you know and it's and police and fire are very

00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:48.519
different we don't need to be intimidating we

00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:50.280
don't need to have that look in our eyes it's

00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:52.539
more confidence amongst chaos that we know what

00:37:52.539 --> 00:37:56.010
we come into our own But when it comes to law

00:37:56.010 --> 00:37:58.170
enforcement, yeah, there's certain people that

00:37:58.170 --> 00:38:00.349
you see in uniform, like I can't imagine anyone

00:38:00.349 --> 00:38:03.110
trying to fight that guy or female, you know,

00:38:03.110 --> 00:38:05.670
trying to run from them. And, you know, it's

00:38:05.670 --> 00:38:07.969
so important. But as we're seeing this recruitment

00:38:07.969 --> 00:38:10.369
crisis and standards getting lowered and lowered,

00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:13.030
I feel like there's more and more videos that

00:38:13.030 --> 00:38:15.070
this is what happens. And when people say, oh,

00:38:15.090 --> 00:38:18.010
we don't have the money for more officers, more

00:38:18.010 --> 00:38:20.269
training, whatever it is, how much does each

00:38:20.269 --> 00:38:23.369
one of these mistakes cost? When they shoot the

00:38:23.369 --> 00:38:25.489
wrong person, because like you said, they went

00:38:25.489 --> 00:38:28.130
straight to lethal force without having the spectrum

00:38:28.130 --> 00:38:31.590
in between, or they simply didn't present a deterrent

00:38:31.590 --> 00:38:34.530
to this person, even making bad choices in the

00:38:34.530 --> 00:38:36.909
first place, you're talking millions and millions

00:38:36.909 --> 00:38:40.530
and millions of dollars. So again, from the proactive

00:38:40.530 --> 00:38:42.869
side, it's such an important conversation, not

00:38:42.869 --> 00:38:45.210
to mention that a fit, able officer, just as

00:38:45.210 --> 00:38:48.429
you alluded to, is more likely to have a better

00:38:48.429 --> 00:38:50.190
time when it comes to their own mental health.

00:38:51.799 --> 00:38:53.440
Absolutely. And, you know, we call it command

00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:56.139
presence. When you step out of that car, everyone

00:38:56.139 --> 00:38:58.039
at that scene sizes you up immediately, man.

00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.320
And they see and smell, especially in the hood,

00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:04.360
fear in your eyes. And, you know, you and I can

00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:06.320
see it too. You look at a man, you can tell if

00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:08.539
he's ready to roll or if he's shitting in his

00:39:08.539 --> 00:39:11.719
pants. And especially in the hood, man, they...

00:39:12.250 --> 00:39:14.630
The only way, there's no discourse. Every problem

00:39:14.630 --> 00:39:16.789
is dealt with, with violence. So they're constantly

00:39:16.789 --> 00:39:18.610
getting into people and they can just look at

00:39:18.610 --> 00:39:19.789
people and know whether or not they're scared.

00:39:20.150 --> 00:39:23.349
So if you come, you know, I've had plenty of

00:39:23.349 --> 00:39:25.050
guys and they were just talking shit. I'm like,

00:39:25.090 --> 00:39:28.289
brother, you are just a human target to me. Let's

00:39:28.289 --> 00:39:30.909
roll. And they're like, you see him like kind

00:39:30.909 --> 00:39:33.510
of reel back, like, whoa. And it wasn't like

00:39:33.510 --> 00:39:35.530
I was the baddest man in the world, but I had

00:39:35.530 --> 00:39:38.619
no. The only thing I worried about was getting

00:39:38.619 --> 00:39:40.139
embarrassed, getting knocked out. Like physically,

00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:42.179
I don't know, you could break my nose, do whatever

00:39:42.179 --> 00:39:44.800
you needed to do. That did nothing to me. But

00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:46.960
I never, I was like, man, if I ever lose a fight,

00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:48.559
it's going to be so embarrassing. Plus, I have

00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:50.480
a gun on me so they can, you know, take that

00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:54.019
and pop one in my head and I'm done. But it is

00:39:54.019 --> 00:39:57.280
so important. I just don't understand how you

00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:59.300
go to work in these professions and you are not

00:39:59.300 --> 00:40:01.639
ready physically. Come out of the car, look like

00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:04.820
a bag of laundry, obese. I mean, you're an embarrassment.

00:40:05.309 --> 00:40:08.349
to yourself. You have a family. You owe it to

00:40:08.349 --> 00:40:11.289
them to show up in condition, ready to rock and

00:40:11.289 --> 00:40:14.030
roll. How about me? You know, you may be able

00:40:14.030 --> 00:40:17.289
to call the pawn to save my life. I know if it's

00:40:17.289 --> 00:40:19.489
vice versa, I'm ready to kill or die for you.

00:40:19.570 --> 00:40:21.969
Are you ready to do the same thing for me? And

00:40:21.969 --> 00:40:24.190
a lot of times the answer is no. And, you know,

00:40:24.190 --> 00:40:25.769
guys that look like that, they typically don't

00:40:25.769 --> 00:40:27.650
know the law either. You know, it's not just

00:40:27.650 --> 00:40:29.469
a physical portion. They're not ready for anything.

00:40:29.670 --> 00:40:32.369
They have no idea they're incompetent. But unfortunately,

00:40:33.150 --> 00:40:35.809
It's a numbers game. And these days, man, they

00:40:35.809 --> 00:40:38.730
just happen to get a signature on the line and

00:40:38.730 --> 00:40:42.429
hire someone. Some of these videos I see, wow,

00:40:42.590 --> 00:40:44.269
I would hand in my papers the next day if that

00:40:44.269 --> 00:40:48.389
was me. Well, the thing is, again, it's not shaming

00:40:48.389 --> 00:40:51.789
the person. I've said so many times, it's funny

00:40:51.789 --> 00:40:53.590
because this is what you were heading into, but

00:40:53.590 --> 00:40:55.670
I would be a terrible accountant. I was awful

00:40:55.670 --> 00:40:58.670
at maths, which is why one of my goals is to

00:40:58.670 --> 00:41:00.369
become a doctor, and it was the maths that stopped

00:41:00.369 --> 00:41:02.820
me. In chemistry, in physics, I'm like, okay,

00:41:02.820 --> 00:41:04.659
I literally just can't get my head around this.

00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.420
I'm done. So it's not about, oh, that you're

00:41:08.420 --> 00:41:10.539
a bad person. It's just that you're not the right

00:41:10.539 --> 00:41:13.239
person for law enforcement or fire or corrections

00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:16.179
or whatever the particular profession would be.

00:41:16.539 --> 00:41:18.840
And then you also factor in the people who have

00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:20.480
been on for a little bit that, yeah, the job

00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:22.820
does set you up for failure, which is why we

00:41:22.820 --> 00:41:24.559
need to have that conversation too. The work

00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:27.820
weeks and the shift schedules that allow a police

00:41:27.820 --> 00:41:30.590
officer or firefighter to stay fit. stay healthy

00:41:30.590 --> 00:41:33.369
and not gain weight. But then there's also that

00:41:33.369 --> 00:41:35.909
line in the sand. You can be the nicest person

00:41:35.909 --> 00:41:38.409
in the world. Fantastic. Doesn't mean that you're

00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:40.150
supposed to put on a first responders uniform.

00:41:40.250 --> 00:41:42.829
And we've got to acknowledge that too. And if

00:41:42.829 --> 00:41:44.829
you can't find enough people, you don't lower

00:41:44.829 --> 00:41:47.409
the bar. You figure out why does people, why

00:41:47.409 --> 00:41:49.389
do people not want to do this profession anymore?

00:41:49.670 --> 00:41:54.090
What needs to be fixed? Yeah. But what's the,

00:41:54.090 --> 00:41:57.309
what's the solution nowadays? I mean, you know,

00:41:57.329 --> 00:41:58.929
these guys and girls are seeing these videos.

00:41:59.449 --> 00:42:03.409
of us and 90 of the time it's our own doing um

00:42:03.409 --> 00:42:06.130
especially i the one that blows me away these

00:42:06.130 --> 00:42:09.070
days is the fact that cops do not realize that

00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:11.210
people you have no reasonable expectation of

00:42:11.210 --> 00:42:12.809
privacy when you're in the public they can record

00:42:12.809 --> 00:42:16.130
you all day long you see video after video of

00:42:16.130 --> 00:42:18.789
guys and girls approaching and going head to

00:42:18.789 --> 00:42:20.409
head with these auditors and other people about

00:42:20.409 --> 00:42:23.190
telling them they cannot video yes they can just

00:42:23.190 --> 00:42:26.130
leave them alone first of all learn the law you

00:42:26.130 --> 00:42:28.599
know especially with um cameras being everywhere

00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.960
these days, it's not unlikely that you may be

00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.320
recorded and shown publicly, you know, just doing

00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:38.780
your job. And for you not to know the parameters

00:42:38.780 --> 00:42:41.579
of the law, that's a shame on you. You know,

00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:44.059
the law is actually a weapon. It can be used

00:42:44.059 --> 00:42:46.440
if you know what you're doing. You know, a lot

00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:48.659
of times these people on the street ask these

00:42:48.659 --> 00:42:50.340
cops, you know, can you detain me? Can you do

00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:51.760
this? Can you do that? They can't even answer

00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:54.300
the question. You know, you need to know what

00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:56.829
you're doing. Because it's an embarrassment to

00:42:56.829 --> 00:42:59.289
yourself if you don't. And, you know, forget

00:42:59.289 --> 00:43:01.590
about law. So you're setting yourself up for

00:43:01.590 --> 00:43:04.349
failure, like you said. Didn't Florida just put

00:43:04.349 --> 00:43:07.630
in a law where if you get too close to a scene,

00:43:07.809 --> 00:43:12.030
you're in danger of being arrested? That I've

00:43:12.030 --> 00:43:15.320
not heard. But what's I mean, it's so subjective.

00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:17.539
What's too close? Yeah, I think that's that's

00:43:17.539 --> 00:43:19.280
where it's kind of gray area. But I think, you

00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:20.760
know, obviously, because there is I mean, let's

00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:22.340
be honest, let's look at the other side of it.

00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:24.760
Now, if people are in our face and we're in,

00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.760
you know, on the scene of a shooting, you don't

00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:30.559
know if that person was the perpetrator. You

00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.679
know, we're a paramedic trying to work that person.

00:43:32.739 --> 00:43:35.739
So there is that there is legitimately, you know,

00:43:35.739 --> 00:43:37.760
the other side of the conversation. We know you

00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.949
don't have the right to be. right you know in

00:43:39.949 --> 00:43:41.909
the middle of a bunch of first responders that

00:43:41.909 --> 00:43:44.909
agree 100 so yeah and you know they should go

00:43:44.909 --> 00:43:47.010
for obstruction if they are in fact obstructing

00:43:47.010 --> 00:43:49.730
but the fact that so much solely recording you

00:43:49.730 --> 00:43:52.110
you know from a safe distance that's what i have

00:43:52.110 --> 00:43:53.730
a problem with i have absolutely no problem with

00:43:53.730 --> 00:43:56.090
uh you know you're you're establishing some type

00:43:56.090 --> 00:43:58.750
of perimeter and someone's violating it you give

00:43:58.750 --> 00:44:01.550
them a warning they do it again time to go absolutely

00:44:01.550 --> 00:44:04.090
fine But, you know, it's a very subjective thing.

00:44:04.190 --> 00:44:06.650
Like, what is it, 8 feet, 10 feet, 12 feet? You

00:44:06.650 --> 00:44:09.210
know, what do you guys, what is the law now as

00:44:09.210 --> 00:44:12.809
far as, you know, distance alone? Yeah. Yeah,

00:44:12.849 --> 00:44:14.769
it's funny you mentioned about knowing the actual

00:44:14.769 --> 00:44:17.289
laws. There was a video. I have no idea as far

00:44:17.289 --> 00:44:21.769
as, you know, the back story. But it was, I think

00:44:21.769 --> 00:44:24.809
she said she'd been on 20 years, 10 years as

00:44:24.809 --> 00:44:27.710
a sergeant. But she was being interviewed by

00:44:27.710 --> 00:44:30.730
a lawyer. Obviously, she'd arrested someone because

00:44:30.730 --> 00:44:33.599
they'd... And they'd asked for the ID and the

00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.099
person said no. And so they arrested them. So

00:44:36.099 --> 00:44:38.500
then they were saying, okay, well, under what

00:44:38.500 --> 00:44:41.119
law are you able to do that? And she couldn't

00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:42.500
even answer that. And she said, well, what are

00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:44.539
your Miranda rights? And she couldn't even answer

00:44:44.539 --> 00:44:47.079
that. 20 -year law enforcement veteran. Now,

00:44:47.099 --> 00:44:48.619
I don't know them by heart, but I know that you're

00:44:48.619 --> 00:44:51.360
supposed to if you're in law enforcement. So

00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:53.679
yeah, that's the danger, isn't it? If you have

00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:55.800
the wrong person in uniform, think of the damage

00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:57.219
they could do. And then think about that. That's

00:44:57.219 --> 00:44:59.849
a sergeant. what are the chances that that's

00:44:59.849 --> 00:45:02.570
that she has created a huge amount of toxicity

00:45:02.570 --> 00:45:05.510
in a department because everyone beneath her

00:45:05.510 --> 00:45:07.150
knows that she doesn't even know how to do her

00:45:07.150 --> 00:45:10.849
own job so it's there's so many reasons why these

00:45:10.849 --> 00:45:14.429
standards are set and they should be upheld exactly

00:45:14.429 --> 00:45:16.750
i had uh it could have been the same video for

00:45:16.750 --> 00:45:18.449
all i know but i was watching a female sergeant

00:45:18.449 --> 00:45:20.429
she was getting deposed and if you've ever been

00:45:20.429 --> 00:45:24.449
deposed man it's pretty intense and uh they asked

00:45:24.449 --> 00:45:27.210
her about detaining someone and they asked her

00:45:27.210 --> 00:45:29.630
when can you detain someone? And she couldn't

00:45:29.630 --> 00:45:31.710
even answer that. For those of you who are watching

00:45:31.710 --> 00:45:33.690
who don't know, you can detain someone when you

00:45:33.690 --> 00:45:36.070
think they committed a crime or about to commit

00:45:36.070 --> 00:45:38.170
a crime or are committing a crime. That's when

00:45:38.170 --> 00:45:39.829
you can detain someone. She couldn't even answer

00:45:39.829 --> 00:45:42.570
that as a sergeant, one of the most basic tenants

00:45:42.570 --> 00:45:45.730
in law. Yeah, sounds like the same video. All

00:45:45.730 --> 00:45:47.469
right. Well, then let's go back to the first

00:45:47.469 --> 00:45:49.869
10 years in Atlanta then. When you reflect back

00:45:49.869 --> 00:45:53.510
now, what were some of the career calls or calls

00:45:53.510 --> 00:45:55.269
that still stick with you? And it doesn't have

00:45:55.269 --> 00:45:56.929
to be anything horrendous either. It could be

00:45:56.929 --> 00:45:59.630
moments of compassion and empathy. But what are

00:45:59.630 --> 00:46:01.170
some of the ones from that period of your life?

00:46:02.369 --> 00:46:04.530
Let's see. I'll start off with literally my first

00:46:04.530 --> 00:46:07.369
night. So we finished the academy on a Monday.

00:46:08.070 --> 00:46:10.150
Excuse me. We graduated after field training.

00:46:10.269 --> 00:46:12.989
So next day, field training starts. I was working

00:46:12.989 --> 00:46:15.519
midnight. So we started at 11 p .m., worked until

00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:21.460
7 a .m. By midnight the first night, so I'm an

00:46:21.460 --> 00:46:23.219
hour into my first tour, I'm at my first homicide

00:46:23.219 --> 00:46:25.519
scene. And that was a crazy story. It was actually

00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:28.460
an Atlanta police captain off duty. He was on

00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:30.860
suspension for allegations of him messing with

00:46:30.860 --> 00:46:32.800
younger girls. I guess they would confirm that

00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:34.980
night. He went and picked up a prostitute. She

00:46:34.980 --> 00:46:37.380
was 16 years old and decided he wanted a small

00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:39.320
crack. So he pulls up to the local dope boy,

00:46:39.460 --> 00:46:42.570
orders his rock. Dope boy looks in the car, and

00:46:42.570 --> 00:46:44.309
who does he see? You talk about a small world.

00:46:44.469 --> 00:46:47.090
His 16 -year -old cousin pulls out a gun, puts

00:46:47.090 --> 00:46:48.949
one on the guy's head, brain matter everywhere.

00:46:49.070 --> 00:46:53.550
So first hour. By 4 a .m., myself and my partner

00:46:53.550 --> 00:46:57.210
received a homicide call in our sector. So first

00:46:57.210 --> 00:47:00.269
night, five hours in, two homicide scenes. And

00:47:00.269 --> 00:47:03.050
it only got crazier. As far as memorable calls,

00:47:03.329 --> 00:47:06.920
man, there's so many. I'll tell you, the first

00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:10.239
truly traumatic one, and I never processed this

00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:13.199
really, I get a call for an unresponsive 11 -year

00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:16.300
-old, and our medical training in Atlanta consisted

00:47:16.300 --> 00:47:20.179
of CPR. That's probably it, to be honest with

00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:21.699
you. When I went through Suffolk County back

00:47:21.699 --> 00:47:24.579
on Long Island, we were first responders, basic

00:47:24.579 --> 00:47:26.739
first responders, so had a little bit of medical

00:47:26.739 --> 00:47:29.980
training. But I get to the scene, and his mother,

00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:31.780
his grandmother, and his aunt are in the living

00:47:31.780 --> 00:47:34.340
room in hysterics. He's on the ground, face up.

00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:37.760
on his back eyes are wide open i go over touch

00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:39.599
him he's cold to the touch no pulse i know he's

00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:41.760
dead no one's bringing him back but they are

00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:43.860
in hysterics and there's no way i'm sitting here

00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:46.619
doing nothing while i'm waiting for uh paramedics

00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:50.000
to come so start doing tpr as i'm doing compressions

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.119
i can get liquid coming up his uh his windpipe

00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:56.599
and uh throat and i'm like that should not be

00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:58.780
there so doing compression doing compression

00:47:58.780 --> 00:48:00.239
you can hear it getting closer finally i put

00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.719
him on his side and just green liquid pours out

00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:05.639
of his mouth i'm like what the hell is that just

00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.239
then paramedics of fire walk in and i literally

00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:11.119
look up and i'm like what the fuck so it turns

00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:14.219
out he passed uh he died of bacterial meningitis

00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:20.650
so um i So they took him and two of the women

00:48:20.650 --> 00:48:22.949
in the ambulance. I transported a third. And

00:48:22.949 --> 00:48:24.610
the whole way there, you know, she's in hysterics.

00:48:24.610 --> 00:48:26.570
And she just asked me, please, officer, tell

00:48:26.570 --> 00:48:28.530
me he's going to be fine. And to those of you

00:48:28.530 --> 00:48:31.369
who are active, never tell anyone someone is

00:48:31.369 --> 00:48:33.170
going to be fine when you know. Don't tell them

00:48:33.170 --> 00:48:35.710
anything you know to be untrue. But certainly

00:48:35.710 --> 00:48:37.630
never tell them someone's going to be fine when

00:48:37.630 --> 00:48:39.570
you know they're not. So I said, ma 'am, I promise

00:48:39.570 --> 00:48:41.650
you, they're working as hard as they can. Knowing

00:48:41.650 --> 00:48:44.670
full well he was dead. And we get to the hospital.

00:48:45.289 --> 00:48:46.969
Doctors figure out what happened, explain it.

00:48:47.389 --> 00:48:51.769
And bacterial meningitis is not easily transferable

00:48:51.769 --> 00:48:54.730
from child to adult. So they gave me a massive

00:48:54.730 --> 00:48:56.570
dose of antibiotics. They essentially told me

00:48:56.570 --> 00:48:59.050
to quarantine for 48 hours. So had I not had

00:48:59.050 --> 00:49:01.610
to do so, I would have gone back in service immediately

00:49:01.610 --> 00:49:05.409
as soon as I got back to the ozone. But I was

00:49:05.409 --> 00:49:07.070
able to go home for those two days. Didn't really

00:49:07.070 --> 00:49:08.809
think about, you know, what I had just been through.

00:49:08.849 --> 00:49:12.289
Just kind of pushed that to the side. But eventually

00:49:12.289 --> 00:49:15.840
when it got me. It was calls like that, being

00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:17.800
inside the most devastatingly intimate moments

00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:20.820
of other people's lives for 30 years, that kind

00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:23.860
of created my PTSD, which I only realized after

00:49:23.860 --> 00:49:28.579
I retired. Man, there were so many calls. I'm

00:49:28.579 --> 00:49:34.260
trying to think of good ones. I'm sure some will

00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:38.679
come to light here. This is a pretty good one.

00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:43.989
This is my first. I'm about... So we get out

00:49:43.989 --> 00:49:45.650
of the academy after field training, probably

00:49:45.650 --> 00:49:48.849
end of May. So this is probably early September.

00:49:49.269 --> 00:49:51.130
We've been on footbeat. There's about 10 of us

00:49:51.130 --> 00:49:54.349
in zone three, which is where I worked. And we

00:49:54.349 --> 00:49:56.750
worked in what was called a mini precinct. With

00:49:56.750 --> 00:49:59.610
us were narcotics detectives. So there was four

00:49:59.610 --> 00:50:01.969
of them. Two called out that night. So two were

00:50:01.969 --> 00:50:04.530
going to be riding by themselves. They asked

00:50:04.530 --> 00:50:06.130
if myself and my partner would like to ride along

00:50:06.130 --> 00:50:09.510
with them. I'm like, hell yeah. So the boss A

00:50:09.510 --> 00:50:10.989
-OK'd it. We were going to plainclothes with

00:50:10.989 --> 00:50:14.619
these guys. So they know everyone and everything.

00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:17.780
We kind of roll up to this certain dole pole

00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:20.820
in the Pittsburgh area, it's called. And they

00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:22.960
knew all the dealers. We get out of the car,

00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:27.179
we're talking to them. And nothing adversarial

00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:28.440
is going on. We're just having a conversation.

00:50:29.059 --> 00:50:32.760
And the way it unfolded was we kind of went in

00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.280
this circle of guys. There's probably about eight

00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:36.239
guys. Again, nothing adversarial. It was just

00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:39.280
the way semantics unfolded that night when I

00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.690
was speaking. So just then a Jeep pulls up. I

00:50:42.690 --> 00:50:45.530
walk up to the driver's side of the Jeep, shot

00:50:45.530 --> 00:50:47.250
my flashlight and went on. I see this guy with

00:50:47.250 --> 00:50:49.130
a, yeah, ended up having a car hot jacket on.

00:50:49.210 --> 00:50:50.949
It was a really big pocket. And I can see the

00:50:50.949 --> 00:50:52.730
butt of a gun sticking in there, sticking out.

00:50:52.989 --> 00:50:54.710
So I opened the door, grabbed the gun. It was

00:50:54.710 --> 00:50:56.349
.380, threw it in my pocket, told him to get

00:50:56.349 --> 00:50:58.769
out of the car. He's under arrest. Had I had

00:50:58.769 --> 00:51:00.170
a little more time on, I would have grabbed his

00:51:00.170 --> 00:51:01.889
wrist and just taken him immediately to the ground.

00:51:01.969 --> 00:51:05.070
But rookie mistake. My partner gets in between

00:51:05.070 --> 00:51:06.409
us for some reason. I don't know why to this

00:51:06.409 --> 00:51:08.730
day. And this dude just elbows my partner in

00:51:08.730 --> 00:51:11.440
the face, takes off running. so he makes a right

00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.519
turn but there's dirt on the ground so he uh

00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:17.619
spills falls down gets up squares off with me

00:51:17.619 --> 00:51:20.480
so he throws a left block at my right i still

00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:22.880
have my flashlight in my hand so i'm not gonna

00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:25.260
lie i try to break his collarbone so i hit him

00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:27.659
a little high up here on his left side so he

00:51:27.659 --> 00:51:29.380
just screamed and went down like that with that

00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:31.639
movie tie clench boom knee to nose broke that

00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:35.539
nose done So it started like a mini riot. I didn't

00:51:35.539 --> 00:51:37.679
realize he was the man. He was like the head

00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:39.539
door boy, Ricky Giles. I still remember this

00:51:39.539 --> 00:51:42.340
guy's name, Rick Rick. So we had like a mini

00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:45.719
riot. We had to quell that. Taking back to the

00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:49.000
precinct, we threw him in the past, the whatchamacallit,

00:51:49.059 --> 00:51:51.800
prisoner van pulled up, paddy wagon pulled up.

00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:53.420
We threw him in there with his brother. They

00:51:53.420 --> 00:51:55.059
were both cuffed. They got over on us because

00:51:55.059 --> 00:51:58.039
they dumped like 200 hits of crack behind the

00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:01.960
bench. We found it the next day. I get called,

00:52:02.059 --> 00:52:06.119
I get a notification for a federal parole revocation

00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:08.800
hearing for him. He was on federal parole two

00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:10.619
months later. So I have to go, I'm testifying.

00:52:11.260 --> 00:52:13.559
And one of the attorneys asked for a sidebar.

00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:17.500
I love this story. So it's the two attorneys

00:52:17.500 --> 00:52:20.199
speaking to the judge. She's to my left. I'm

00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:21.800
kind of looking around the room and all of a

00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:24.659
sudden he and I just lock eyes. And now he's

00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:28.320
just eye -effing me. And I meant to mouth the

00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:32.929
words, but I said out loud. fuck you. You had

00:52:32.929 --> 00:52:35.650
to see this judge's head just like snap to the

00:52:35.650 --> 00:52:39.070
right. I'm like, I apologize, Your Honor. The

00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:42.269
federal prosecutor, her mouth was just agape.

00:52:42.389 --> 00:52:45.190
She didn't know what to say. And the judge was

00:52:45.190 --> 00:52:46.510
kind of looking around. She didn't really know

00:52:46.510 --> 00:52:48.269
what to do at first. Then he went back to the

00:52:48.269 --> 00:52:50.010
sidebar and went back to the hearing after that.

00:52:50.110 --> 00:52:52.969
But it was just pretty funny. But this dude,

00:52:53.170 --> 00:52:55.110
I don't know how he got away. Well, I know how,

00:52:55.190 --> 00:52:56.789
because he was such a bad dude that no one testified

00:52:56.789 --> 00:52:59.050
against him. But I don't even know how many bodies

00:52:59.050 --> 00:53:02.079
this guy had on him. And I was, it's weird, the

00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:05.820
first time that you use, when you get into a,

00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:08.760
you know, a physical altercation on the street,

00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:11.900
you're not really sure, by law, you're allowed

00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:14.940
to use just a little bit more violence than they're

00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:17.659
using against you to overcome it. But you're

00:53:17.659 --> 00:53:19.199
not really sure. You never did it before. So

00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:21.000
you're like, did I do too much? You know, am

00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:22.980
I going to get in trouble? And everything was

00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:24.460
fine. Never heard from him again. Those guys

00:53:24.460 --> 00:53:26.760
told me I did a great job. But, you know, it

00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.500
was kind of baptism by fire. The first time I

00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:30.719
get into a little bit of... confrontation literally

00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:34.679
squared off with a badass dude so you know it

00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:38.480
was it was a good baptism by fire and you don't

00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:40.820
realize it but um you get a reputation pretty

00:53:40.820 --> 00:53:43.340
quickly in the hood so that cement of mine worked

00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:47.099
out well for me well i know we're going to talk

00:53:47.099 --> 00:53:49.619
about psychedelic therapy in a little bit um

00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:53.469
which is such an interesting uh perspective now

00:53:53.469 --> 00:53:56.429
because so many of the people that wore uniform,

00:53:56.630 --> 00:53:59.050
either in our military or first responders, are

00:53:59.050 --> 00:54:01.710
now having to go overseas to find the very treatment

00:54:01.710 --> 00:54:05.150
that they need for the trauma they accumulated

00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:08.250
through their service. And so the whole drug

00:54:08.250 --> 00:54:10.030
prohibition thing, I mean, I talk about this

00:54:10.030 --> 00:54:12.710
all the time. There's a difference between the

00:54:12.710 --> 00:54:15.329
smugglers and the dealers. That is a crime. You

00:54:15.329 --> 00:54:17.250
are trying to benefit off the addiction of other

00:54:17.250 --> 00:54:19.989
people. But when it comes to the addicts themselves,

00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:23.400
My personal thing is that I feel like the war

00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:26.239
on drugs is a complete failure, like an 80 -year

00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:29.699
longitudinal study that's been a failure. With

00:54:29.699 --> 00:54:32.860
this three -decade lens that you have in different

00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:35.900
places within the States, what is your perspective

00:54:35.900 --> 00:54:39.139
of the efficacy of the war on drugs? And if you

00:54:39.139 --> 00:54:41.900
were king for a day and thought something needed

00:54:41.900 --> 00:54:46.840
to change, what would that be? That's a great

00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:49.420
question. I mean, the war on drugs is a joke,

00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:54.929
frankly. uh we are losing it by far you know

00:54:54.929 --> 00:54:57.670
you'll you'll see interviews with cartel members

00:54:57.670 --> 00:54:59.889
and they'll talk about sending like 10 shipments

00:54:59.889 --> 00:55:02.110
out in a day and seven or eight of them get through

00:55:02.110 --> 00:55:05.030
so we stopped those two but um i mean the overwhelming

00:55:05.030 --> 00:55:08.989
amount of uh drugs is arriving here and frankly

00:55:08.989 --> 00:55:12.969
it's because of the um simple economics i mean

00:55:12.969 --> 00:55:15.070
there's a market for it supply and demand and

00:55:15.070 --> 00:55:20.289
demand is huge so as far as I'm not sure what

00:55:20.289 --> 00:55:24.250
the answer is because other than legalizing it

00:55:24.250 --> 00:55:27.050
and going that route, I don't see how we're ever

00:55:27.050 --> 00:55:29.789
going. There's just too much money involved to

00:55:29.789 --> 00:55:31.630
ever win. There's so much corruption involved

00:55:31.630 --> 00:55:35.269
up to the highest levels of government, both

00:55:35.269 --> 00:55:37.969
ours and every other country that's involved

00:55:37.969 --> 00:55:41.550
in the trade. There's no easy answer for that

00:55:41.550 --> 00:55:43.710
one, to be honest with you. I was always against

00:55:43.710 --> 00:55:47.449
legalizing it, but I don't know. I don't think

00:55:47.449 --> 00:55:49.769
that's the answer either. i don't know it's it's

00:55:49.769 --> 00:55:53.929
unwinnable so i don't know what you do you can't

00:55:53.929 --> 00:55:58.869
raise a white flag i don't know and i apologize

00:55:58.869 --> 00:56:01.889
the second part of your question no no that was

00:56:01.889 --> 00:56:03.550
that was you answered it you know if you were

00:56:03.550 --> 00:56:04.889
king for a day what would you change and you're

00:56:04.889 --> 00:56:07.190
literally saying i don't know and i think this

00:56:07.190 --> 00:56:09.170
is what's really interesting with your community

00:56:09.170 --> 00:56:13.000
is if there is going to be any profession that

00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:16.380
is the hardest to even get to acknowledge that

00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:17.940
maybe the way you're doing it isn't working,

00:56:18.059 --> 00:56:19.880
it's law enforcement. Because you guys from the

00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:21.980
academy were taught, these are the laws, drugs

00:56:21.980 --> 00:56:26.019
are bad, go arrest the bad people. And you look

00:56:26.019 --> 00:56:28.440
at it over so many decades, and then you start

00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:31.340
understanding the origin story of prohibition.

00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:34.500
And Harry Anstinger, just when alcohol prohibition

00:56:34.500 --> 00:56:36.840
ended, because it was an epic failure, and that's

00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:39.630
why we know Al Capone, for example. He comes

00:56:39.630 --> 00:56:43.030
in screaming racist, job justification, and this

00:56:43.030 --> 00:56:45.170
is what starts the reefer madness, and then it

00:56:45.170 --> 00:56:48.349
got worse and worse from there. What was really

00:56:48.349 --> 00:56:50.570
interesting, and I've said this on the show several

00:56:50.570 --> 00:56:54.489
times now, about 20, just over 25 years ago,

00:56:54.530 --> 00:56:56.829
I think, my mom and my brother moved to Portugal

00:56:56.829 --> 00:56:59.250
from England. And when I started the podcast,

00:56:59.550 --> 00:57:01.590
like a year or so into it, she said, hey, did

00:57:01.590 --> 00:57:04.710
you know what they did about the addiction problem

00:57:04.710 --> 00:57:07.960
here in Portugal? And what had happened, a lot

00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.639
of Portuguese soldiers were out in one of the

00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:12.679
African countries that was one of their colonies,

00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:16.940
supporting that government in some sort of war.

00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:20.059
And they basically came back and there was a

00:57:20.059 --> 00:57:22.260
huge opioid epidemic they brought with them.

00:57:22.619 --> 00:57:25.980
And so the Portuguese are a very unique group

00:57:25.980 --> 00:57:29.119
because they're kind of looked down upon by a

00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:32.880
lot of the more affluent European countries.

00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:35.300
But if you look at them, they do a lot of things.

00:57:35.849 --> 00:57:38.329
more traditionally and as we know as we've had

00:57:38.329 --> 00:57:40.369
to talk about a lot some things that we've done

00:57:40.369 --> 00:57:42.210
a long time ago are actually the right way of

00:57:42.210 --> 00:57:45.070
doing it so they they put it to the country they're

00:57:45.070 --> 00:57:46.829
like look we're doing this war on drugs thing

00:57:46.829 --> 00:57:49.329
and it's not working this american model isn't

00:57:49.329 --> 00:57:52.289
working and so they put it to the entire nation

00:57:52.289 --> 00:57:56.030
to a vote what if we took addicts and we put

00:57:56.030 --> 00:57:58.150
them in the hands of the medical community not

00:57:58.150 --> 00:58:01.559
the you know the the uh law enforcement community

00:58:01.559 --> 00:58:03.780
law enforcement yeah now they're still going

00:58:03.780 --> 00:58:07.960
to arrest any dealer any smuggler but they're

00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:09.599
going to take the the money that they had in

00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:11.539
the war on drugs and this is what we don't see

00:58:11.539 --> 00:58:13.519
in some of these little pockets that have supposedly

00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:16.619
tried it they put a huge amount of money instead

00:58:16.619 --> 00:58:20.000
into addiction counseling mental health counseling

00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:24.380
job creation housing to actually get the struggling

00:58:24.380 --> 00:58:27.730
portuguese man or woman back on their feet so

00:58:27.730 --> 00:58:29.429
they could then get back into the workforce,

00:58:29.670 --> 00:58:32.449
pay taxes, and be a functioning member of society.

00:58:33.130 --> 00:58:35.570
And I had the man, Zhao Gulau, who spearheaded

00:58:35.570 --> 00:58:38.070
this on the show twice now. I sat with him in

00:58:38.070 --> 00:58:41.110
Lisbon the first time. And it was less than 10

00:58:41.110 --> 00:58:45.690
years. They went from the worst in Europe to

00:58:45.690 --> 00:58:48.230
the lowest. They are now in the lowest addictions.

00:58:48.630 --> 00:58:50.489
And what they did is they just looked at people

00:58:50.489 --> 00:58:52.469
that were addicts as people that were struggling.

00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:55.199
people that had mental health challenges that

00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:58.340
needed to be brought back into, you know, to

00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:01.639
be picked up, basically. And then what that did

00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:03.780
is it freed up the law enforcement and the court

00:59:03.780 --> 00:59:06.780
system to then hammer down on the addicts and

00:59:06.780 --> 00:59:09.760
the smugglers. But if you, like you said, with

00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:14.900
economics, if you get people to heal and you

00:59:14.900 --> 00:59:17.420
also allow the medical community to take care

00:59:17.420 --> 00:59:20.219
of addiction, you just cut the head off the snake.

00:59:20.730 --> 00:59:22.710
for the dealers and the smugglers because it's

00:59:22.710 --> 00:59:25.570
supply and demand. But what we did with prohibition

00:59:25.570 --> 00:59:27.789
is we drove every addict into the hands of the

00:59:27.789 --> 00:59:30.510
underworld. And then lo and behold, Mexico, El

00:59:30.510 --> 00:59:34.090
Salvador, Colombia, you know, we created those

00:59:34.090 --> 00:59:35.869
nightmares that they have in this country. Now

00:59:35.869 --> 00:59:37.789
we're building walls to keep Mexicans out who

00:59:37.789 --> 00:59:39.789
are fleeing from the very thing that we created.

00:59:40.289 --> 00:59:43.289
So I really feel like the Portuguese model, which

00:59:43.289 --> 00:59:45.929
is decriminalization. So you're not going into

00:59:45.929 --> 00:59:48.289
the grocery store and buying meth and crack.

00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:51.179
But if you have addictions, you're going and

00:59:51.179 --> 00:59:54.019
if you get arrested, well, you know, you get

00:59:54.019 --> 00:59:57.539
stopped, detained. You get with a personal amount

00:59:57.539 --> 01:00:00.119
of drugs, you get an education on the resources

01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:02.659
that are available. You're not forced into doing

01:00:02.659 --> 01:00:04.900
it. So these people that were scared of being

01:00:04.900 --> 01:00:07.559
arrested, they're like, oh, so I'm not going

01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:09.139
to be arrested as an addict. Right. Well, then

01:00:09.139 --> 01:00:11.460
I'm going to go look for help. But if we're worried

01:00:11.460 --> 01:00:13.519
about being arrested and have a criminal record

01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:16.500
and now your ability to work is even harder.

01:00:17.369 --> 01:00:19.449
It's a vicious circle downwards in our model

01:00:19.449 --> 01:00:22.150
here. But I think the Portuguese model is incredible.

01:00:22.409 --> 01:00:25.849
And it really is held highly about the rest of

01:00:25.849 --> 01:00:29.250
the world. But to our point, collectively, the

01:00:29.250 --> 01:00:30.889
first thing we have to do is acknowledge that

01:00:30.889 --> 01:00:32.550
there's a problem and acknowledge that the way

01:00:32.550 --> 01:00:35.550
we're doing it now isn't working. And it's making

01:00:35.550 --> 01:00:38.289
a few people very rich at the suffering of everyone

01:00:38.289 --> 01:00:42.389
else. Yeah, I agree. And what I love about the

01:00:42.389 --> 01:00:45.230
Portuguese model is, excuse me, if you were to

01:00:45.230 --> 01:00:47.829
take say 10 addicts, and you just bring them

01:00:47.829 --> 01:00:49.170
in a room and you interview them one by one,

01:00:49.329 --> 01:00:52.789
the percentage is going to be extremely low of

01:00:52.789 --> 01:01:01.050
people that are living very vitally happy lives.

01:01:02.250 --> 01:01:04.630
Most people get addicted to drugs because they're

01:01:04.630 --> 01:01:06.889
trying to forget about something that's going

01:01:06.889 --> 01:01:09.610
on. It's rare that you get someone that's just

01:01:09.610 --> 01:01:13.150
physically addicted, but the rest of their life

01:01:13.150 --> 01:01:16.500
is going great. So if you sit there and you talk

01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:18.199
to these people and you find out why they're

01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:21.639
using and then you treat that problem, whether

01:01:21.639 --> 01:01:24.239
it was sexual abuse, you know, there's going

01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:28.280
to be, I would say, almost 100 percent certainty

01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:29.940
that these people are going through other things

01:01:29.940 --> 01:01:32.559
that drove them to drugs. If you treat that root

01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:36.280
cause. You're going to now have someone that

01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:39.300
no longer needs those drugs because that problem

01:01:39.300 --> 01:01:40.800
that they were trying to forget is no longer

01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:43.679
there. They've treated it. They've processed

01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:47.239
whatever trauma it is out of their psyche, so

01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:51.420
to speak. It's very basic stuff here that I'm

01:01:51.420 --> 01:01:55.000
saying, but the concept is you're treating the

01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:57.639
core of whatever drove them to those drugs to

01:01:57.639 --> 01:01:59.619
begin with, and that's what you have to do. Yeah,

01:01:59.659 --> 01:02:01.619
and I think that's it. I always say, you know,

01:02:01.619 --> 01:02:03.760
the analogy of the fairy tale, the princess and

01:02:03.760 --> 01:02:05.800
the pea. Like, you've got to get to the thing

01:02:05.800 --> 01:02:09.219
beneath the thing. What is the nucleus, as we

01:02:09.219 --> 01:02:11.099
kind of talked about with your early life? You

01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:14.099
know, the inability to ever feel good enough

01:02:14.099 --> 01:02:16.179
for your father, that's one of the pieces of

01:02:16.179 --> 01:02:18.880
this. So now let's say you're in, you know, 2012

01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:22.079
and you're kind of finding opioids filling that

01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:24.559
void. And they're like, oh, Mike's just a piece

01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:27.400
of shit addict. It's so much more than that.

01:02:27.460 --> 01:02:29.340
And if Mike now feels like he's got to go into

01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:31.719
the underworld and, you know, now he gets arrested

01:02:31.719 --> 01:02:34.480
and now he's in prison, you know, and now the

01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:36.280
predators are preying on his addiction, you know,

01:02:36.280 --> 01:02:37.820
it's just getting worse and worse and worse.

01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:40.920
Instead of simply saying, look, you're using

01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:43.119
these drugs for a reason. Let's find what that

01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.480
reason is. Let's do whatever needs to be done,

01:02:46.579 --> 01:02:48.659
whether it's traditional or, you know, modern

01:02:48.659 --> 01:02:51.340
therapies or whether it's something more traditional

01:02:51.340 --> 01:02:54.880
like ayahuasca. help you grow from that and then

01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:58.260
get you back on your feet yeah i mean it's just

01:02:58.260 --> 01:03:02.559
like the uh antidepressant ssri you know prescription

01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:06.980
i don't know uh epidemic i call it it's ridiculous

01:03:06.980 --> 01:03:09.579
everything is treat you're just treating it with

01:03:09.579 --> 01:03:11.800
a band -aid you're never getting to the core

01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:14.780
problem of you know what's depressing these people

01:03:14.780 --> 01:03:17.519
um it's very very rare that you're gonna have

01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:19.519
a chemical imbalance i read something the other

01:03:19.519 --> 01:03:22.420
day where scientists are now doubting whether

01:03:22.420 --> 01:03:27.940
or not that's even a valid issue if that's a

01:03:27.940 --> 01:03:31.739
valid what's the word I'm looking for here medical

01:03:31.739 --> 01:03:35.519
condition so if you don't get to the core you

01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:37.460
know the root cause of that you're going to prescribe

01:03:37.460 --> 01:03:39.219
all these other medications to these people as

01:03:39.219 --> 01:03:41.639
well it's the same exact thing it's just a band

01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:45.739
-aid for something that needs some type of you

01:03:45.739 --> 01:03:49.289
know critical and intensive therapy That's the

01:03:49.289 --> 01:03:50.590
only way it's going to get cured, not by this

01:03:50.590 --> 01:03:52.650
pill. Those things make them feel, I've never

01:03:52.650 --> 01:03:55.250
been on them, but every single person I've ever

01:03:55.250 --> 01:03:58.369
spoken to who's taken them and has tried to get

01:03:58.369 --> 01:04:02.010
off says they feel absolutely nothing. Yeah,

01:04:02.010 --> 01:04:03.969
exactly. There's no way to live. Absolutely not.

01:04:04.710 --> 01:04:06.750
Well, going back to your kind of career journey,

01:04:06.789 --> 01:04:09.250
you mentioned Atlanta for 10 years. What was

01:04:09.250 --> 01:04:11.710
it that made you leave that department and where

01:04:11.710 --> 01:04:16.809
was it that you found yourself? Yeah, so as I

01:04:16.809 --> 01:04:19.369
was going through, I had been taking, again,

01:04:19.449 --> 01:04:21.170
Long Island's broken up into Nassau and Suffolk

01:04:21.170 --> 01:04:23.610
counties. Each have their own police department.

01:04:23.769 --> 01:04:28.429
So I had been taking their tests throughout Nassau.

01:04:29.110 --> 01:04:30.969
Nassau was weird. They had a nine -part test.

01:04:31.090 --> 01:04:33.590
They threw out seven out of nine parts. So I

01:04:33.590 --> 01:04:36.510
didn't do well on their test in 96. And Suffolk

01:04:36.510 --> 01:04:39.409
County had a test in 97. I got 100 on it. I was

01:04:39.409 --> 01:04:41.489
expecting to be called in 98 into an academy

01:04:41.489 --> 01:04:45.679
class. Then they had a... cheating issue part

01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:47.440
of the test is biographical and he found out

01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:50.559
that uh they had i don't know 29 minority recruits

01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:53.500
recruits and all 29 they cheated on the test

01:04:53.500 --> 01:04:56.539
so instead of throwing out the test that 39 000

01:04:56.539 --> 01:04:58.780
people took because all these guys cheated they

01:04:58.780 --> 01:05:00.880
throw out the entire test so i had to retake

01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.960
it in i think 99 i got a 90 on that but that

01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.840
lower grade just caused me to have to wait till

01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:12.239
uh to get on the job in 03 but i guess my biggest

01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:16.110
draw back then was becoming it's funny to say

01:05:16.110 --> 01:05:19.349
it now becoming uh geographically close to my

01:05:19.349 --> 01:05:23.150
family again um although we weren't close i was

01:05:23.150 --> 01:05:25.510
always trying to be the good son you know i thought

01:05:25.510 --> 01:05:27.289
it'd be the best thing to do to get back close

01:05:27.289 --> 01:05:30.869
to my family uh that was my biggest draw um you

01:05:30.869 --> 01:05:33.409
know friends and family friends as well uh back

01:05:33.409 --> 01:05:36.190
in new york that was still there i missed but

01:05:36.190 --> 01:05:40.730
i don't think i realized how deeply roots i was

01:05:40.730 --> 01:05:43.500
setting in atlanta had become Because when I

01:05:43.500 --> 01:05:45.840
left, I really started missing Atlanta. I'd actually

01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:48.280
started a police fire hockey team as well. That

01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:51.199
had gotten pretty big. We became a 5013C, had

01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:54.619
like a $35 ,000, $40 ,000 a year budget. I think

01:05:54.619 --> 01:05:56.940
we raised like $160 ,000 in three years for charities.

01:05:58.900 --> 01:06:01.619
So when I did make the move, I kind of felt out

01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:03.480
of place when I went back to New York. I remember

01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:06.480
calling back to one of my old majors. I was on

01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:08.880
a list, a short list to go to K -9. And I'm like,

01:06:08.900 --> 01:06:10.280
is that still available? Because I'll come back.

01:06:10.639 --> 01:06:13.179
And he's like, nah, they just changed the rules.

01:06:13.420 --> 01:06:14.739
You have to have three and a half years continuous

01:06:14.739 --> 01:06:17.440
service on the street. So you'd have to go back

01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:18.760
to the street three and a half. I'm like, no,

01:06:18.860 --> 01:06:21.159
that's not happening. So I ended up staying.

01:06:21.260 --> 01:06:23.440
I guess the biggest thing was my family. And

01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:28.360
it's a joke because we were never that close.

01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:32.320
And I was trying to be the good son. And I don't

01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:35.199
want to say I sacrificed myself, but I was making

01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:38.340
decisions based largely on a relationship that

01:06:38.340 --> 01:06:42.039
didn't exist. You mentioned about all these multiple

01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:44.619
tests and all these different parts. Talk to

01:06:44.619 --> 01:06:47.880
me about how competitive it was to be a cop,

01:06:48.019 --> 01:06:50.800
whether it was testing for Atlanta or in 03,

01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:53.519
compared to what you're hearing now in 2025.

01:06:56.820 --> 01:07:00.059
Let's see, Atlanta. Atlanta wasn't that difficult

01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:02.920
to get on. Suffolk County, it's one of the highest

01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:05.139
paid jobs in the nation. So again, when I took

01:07:05.139 --> 01:07:08.429
that test in... 97, it was 39 ,000 people that

01:07:08.429 --> 01:07:12.289
took it. In 99, I think it was like 24 ,000.

01:07:12.349 --> 01:07:14.610
I mean, it was a very, very sought after job,

01:07:14.769 --> 01:07:19.829
very difficult to get on. And let me compare

01:07:19.829 --> 01:07:23.750
that to, I think their last test they had, I

01:07:23.750 --> 01:07:25.449
don't want to get numbers wrong, but maybe a

01:07:25.449 --> 01:07:28.269
10th of the applicants, possibly a little bit

01:07:28.269 --> 01:07:34.090
more, but nothing compared to the amount of people

01:07:34.090 --> 01:07:36.369
that used to apply. And it's just, you know,

01:07:36.369 --> 01:07:38.269
unfortunately, people are looking towards other

01:07:38.269 --> 01:07:41.829
careers, knowing that they're up for public scrutiny

01:07:41.829 --> 01:07:44.550
at any moment in time. And even if you do everything

01:07:44.550 --> 01:07:48.469
right, you can be subjected to that. If I gave

01:07:48.469 --> 01:07:51.010
you a magic Harry Potter wand and you could wave

01:07:51.010 --> 01:07:54.769
it, what would need to change to get those lines

01:07:54.769 --> 01:07:57.269
wrapping the building again? Because I've made

01:07:57.269 --> 01:08:00.329
this point very many times in my short career.

01:08:01.099 --> 01:08:04.119
When I tested in California, it was 1 ,000 certified

01:08:04.119 --> 01:08:07.699
firefighter paramedics or EMTs with a resume

01:08:07.699 --> 01:08:11.500
sitting at that written test for 30 jobs, 3 -0.

01:08:12.320 --> 01:08:14.599
Now, and I don't know Anaheim specifically, but

01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:16.960
now there's departments literally that have five

01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:19.920
openings and five people apply. So now instead

01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:22.640
of taking 1 % of the list, you're taking 100

01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:25.560
% of the list. Very, very different conversation

01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:27.659
and a much higher chance that you've got the

01:08:27.659 --> 01:08:30.800
wrong person in the uniform. So back to the question,

01:08:31.020 --> 01:08:33.739
you're holding this magic wand. What would we

01:08:33.739 --> 01:08:38.760
need to change to get back to that level of hunger

01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:44.319
to be in uniform? That's a great question. You

01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:46.319
know, I think several things, the genie's out

01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:47.800
of the bag in several respects, so you're never

01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:49.659
going back. So, you know, body cameras are here

01:08:49.659 --> 01:08:52.899
to stay. That scrutiny is here to stay. The biggest

01:08:52.899 --> 01:08:54.579
thing I think guys and girls are worried about

01:08:54.579 --> 01:08:57.159
is that they're not going to be backed up by

01:08:57.159 --> 01:09:01.479
the administration. So when you see chiefs and,

01:09:01.600 --> 01:09:03.420
you know, command staff that is behind their

01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:07.619
people, guys and girls know who that is and who

01:09:07.619 --> 01:09:10.720
is running departments that way. There are multiple

01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:12.819
departments down here in Florida that have waiting

01:09:12.819 --> 01:09:14.880
lists that I'm aware of that I've spoken to,

01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:18.079
you know, young guys. There won't be openings

01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:19.960
for years. And when they are, they're filled

01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:22.939
quickly with applicants. So the biggest thing

01:09:22.939 --> 01:09:25.880
is telling these administrators that if you don't

01:09:25.880 --> 01:09:27.579
have their backs, you're not going to be getting

01:09:27.579 --> 01:09:30.939
quality applicants. And they know who and who

01:09:30.939 --> 01:09:34.319
does not have their employees' backs. And I don't

01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:37.859
understand, frankly, as a chief, how that cannot

01:09:37.859 --> 01:09:41.159
be the number one priority in your job is supporting

01:09:41.159 --> 01:09:43.699
your officers. There's a multitude of other things

01:09:43.699 --> 01:09:46.539
you have to do, I understand. But you should

01:09:46.539 --> 01:09:49.159
be an advocate for your cops. You know, someone

01:09:49.159 --> 01:09:52.649
screws up, listen, it's on them. But short of

01:09:52.649 --> 01:09:57.829
that, it is so easy and it's such an act of cowardice

01:09:57.829 --> 01:10:00.449
to bury your cops these days. And you see guys

01:10:00.449 --> 01:10:03.729
and girls doing it in these command staffs immediately

01:10:03.729 --> 01:10:07.069
before the facts are in, you know, just burying

01:10:07.069 --> 01:10:10.670
their own people. And from a perspective of you're

01:10:10.670 --> 01:10:13.069
probably getting sued. So you making these negative

01:10:13.069 --> 01:10:16.619
comments and conceding. that this guy or girl

01:10:16.619 --> 01:10:19.279
did something wrong to begin with is full it's

01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:22.279
just logically i don't understand why you do

01:10:22.279 --> 01:10:25.140
it because you're setting yourself up for a bigger

01:10:25.140 --> 01:10:28.079
lawsuit or you know for that video to be brought

01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:31.420
in as evidence of what you said i just it blows

01:10:31.420 --> 01:10:33.180
my mind to be honest with you that would be the

01:10:33.180 --> 01:10:37.300
biggest thing show support I hear that over and

01:10:37.300 --> 01:10:39.300
over again. And I hear, you know, conversely,

01:10:39.300 --> 01:10:41.439
when I ask people, you know, when I listen to

01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:44.319
people's stories, a lot of times, aside from

01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:46.779
obviously, you know, some of the traumas that

01:10:46.779 --> 01:10:48.640
we brought into the job, some of the obviously

01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:51.819
the clearly traumatic calls that we responded

01:10:51.819 --> 01:10:54.680
to, the other elephant in the room, aside from

01:10:54.680 --> 01:10:56.920
sleep deprivation, which especially in my population,

01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:00.220
is organizational betrayal. And I see it like

01:11:00.220 --> 01:11:03.819
locally here. Both departments have lost numerous

01:11:03.819 --> 01:11:07.050
people. numerous just to mental health issues

01:11:07.050 --> 01:11:10.529
alone overdoses and suicides and you have these

01:11:10.529 --> 01:11:13.449
chiefs that work 40 hours a week that go home

01:11:13.449 --> 01:11:15.989
at five o 'clock monday to friday to their family

01:11:15.989 --> 01:11:19.029
weekends off that don't have the fucking backbone

01:11:19.029 --> 01:11:22.329
to stand up and fight for a healthy work week

01:11:22.329 --> 01:11:25.069
that will then you know increase recruitment

01:11:25.069 --> 01:11:27.189
and retention so therefore get rid of the mandatory

01:11:27.189 --> 01:11:30.689
overtime for their people and i don't understand

01:11:30.689 --> 01:11:34.170
how you can lose people that are under your command

01:11:34.779 --> 01:11:37.819
and be unmoved by it i mean the cowardice is

01:11:37.819 --> 01:11:40.220
nauseating and i would i would allude really

01:11:40.220 --> 01:11:43.340
if you can sleep at night when your people are

01:11:43.340 --> 01:11:44.920
dying and you're not doing anything to change

01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:47.859
it then you need to get a mental health analysis

01:11:47.859 --> 01:11:51.340
yourself because only a sociopath would bury

01:11:51.340 --> 01:11:54.359
their own people and then sleep soundly at night

01:11:55.579 --> 01:11:57.600
Yeah, I agree, James. I mean, I was talking to

01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:00.760
a buddy of mine, Chris Martinez. He talks publicly

01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:03.140
about this, so I'm not talking out of turn. And

01:12:03.140 --> 01:12:04.939
he was going through an addiction when he was

01:12:04.939 --> 01:12:08.239
on the job. And he sent an email to one of his

01:12:08.239 --> 01:12:11.180
sergeants about asking for help. I literally,

01:12:11.279 --> 01:12:13.760
I need help. You know, I'm drowning here. And

01:12:13.760 --> 01:12:18.640
the guy didn't even reply. How? As a man, forget

01:12:18.640 --> 01:12:20.840
about being a cop or his boss. Like this guy's

01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:23.119
essentially telling you, I'm going to kill myself

01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:26.010
if I don't get help. And you don't reply? That's

01:12:26.010 --> 01:12:30.670
mind boggling to me. To your reference about

01:12:30.670 --> 01:12:33.930
the sleep as well, Nassau County, our brother

01:12:33.930 --> 01:12:37.289
agency to Suffolk, they do 12 hour tours. So

01:12:37.289 --> 01:12:39.229
they do three on, four off, two on, three off.

01:12:39.970 --> 01:12:43.010
And we wanted to go to that schedule. But our

01:12:43.010 --> 01:12:46.050
PBA, which is super, super strong, would not

01:12:46.050 --> 01:12:47.789
be able, those guys could not work that schedule.

01:12:47.930 --> 01:12:49.810
They'd still have to do their five eights. So

01:12:49.810 --> 01:12:51.729
they didn't really care too much about changing

01:12:51.729 --> 01:12:56.260
it for us. So the effort was minimal to change

01:12:56.260 --> 01:12:59.220
that calendar. And, you know, my thing is shame

01:12:59.220 --> 01:13:02.180
on you guys. Like this can help us and you guys

01:13:02.180 --> 01:13:05.319
won't do it or aren't, you know, not going headstrong

01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:07.239
into this because it's not going to benefit you

01:13:07.239 --> 01:13:09.640
guys. When in fact, if you see the pay that these

01:13:09.640 --> 01:13:13.340
guys get, they get regular pay. Our first 150

01:13:13.340 --> 01:13:16.229
hours of overtime, we're able to bank it. So

01:13:16.229 --> 01:13:18.770
you typically get raises before the end of the

01:13:18.770 --> 01:13:21.510
year. So you're 150, then get paid out at the

01:13:21.510 --> 01:13:23.550
next higher rate. So those guys are allowed to

01:13:23.550 --> 01:13:26.149
do that. Those guys get paid hazard duty pay

01:13:26.149 --> 01:13:29.869
for being in a PBA. They get, it's incredible.

01:13:30.449 --> 01:13:33.069
They vote these raises themselves or these benefits

01:13:33.069 --> 01:13:35.569
themselves. It's like, you know, it's literally

01:13:35.569 --> 01:13:39.649
like government. And they're a super strong union,

01:13:39.770 --> 01:13:42.989
but I think it's sickening some of the things

01:13:42.989 --> 01:13:45.430
that they'll do for themselves. But if it's not

01:13:45.430 --> 01:13:48.250
applicable to them and it could help us, it's

01:13:48.250 --> 01:13:51.829
kind of put by the wayside. They're not really,

01:13:52.090 --> 01:13:55.569
it's not a big prerogative for them, to be honest

01:13:55.569 --> 01:13:58.270
with you. Not a big priority. Yeah, this is what

01:13:58.270 --> 01:14:00.890
I see. And again, pointing to some great leaders.

01:14:00.890 --> 01:14:02.770
We've seen, for example, from the fire side,

01:14:03.010 --> 01:14:06.010
10 fire departments now in the state of Florida

01:14:06.010 --> 01:14:08.390
the last two years go to the 42 -hour work week.

01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:10.819
making that courageous change and this is you

01:14:10.819 --> 01:14:13.239
know people obviously at all ranks you know within

01:14:13.239 --> 01:14:15.840
unions chief officers city and county managers

01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:18.359
there are some great people there but they are

01:14:18.359 --> 01:14:21.560
you know the the anomalies at the moment and

01:14:21.560 --> 01:14:23.079
i was thinking it's funny you said about the

01:14:23.079 --> 01:14:24.880
hazard pay because i had this very thought the

01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:28.119
other day if you are not gonna you're not required

01:14:28.119 --> 01:14:30.380
to have any courage once you're wearing bugles

01:14:30.380 --> 01:14:33.039
and you're in an office position then you shouldn't

01:14:33.039 --> 01:14:36.439
get the high risk pension yeah If you're pushing

01:14:36.439 --> 01:14:38.279
papers behind a desk and you're like, oh, I have

01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:40.439
no accountability for people under me now, then

01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:43.119
great. Then you need to go to a regular civilian

01:14:43.119 --> 01:14:45.319
pension then at that point. If you're actually

01:14:45.319 --> 01:14:48.159
going to wear the uniform of a firefighter and

01:14:48.159 --> 01:14:50.760
advocate for your people and keep that pension,

01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:53.079
then you need to actually do what's right for

01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:56.520
them. So I don't think that's unfair. No, not

01:14:56.520 --> 01:14:58.859
at all. And one I just popped in my head, another

01:14:58.859 --> 01:15:02.420
benefit they get is full night diff. So if you're

01:15:02.420 --> 01:15:04.340
on day tours in Suffolk County, you don't get

01:15:04.340 --> 01:15:09.220
a... You don't get night diff from 3 p .m. Is

01:15:09.220 --> 01:15:11.420
it 3 p .m.? I think it's either 3 p .m. or 6

01:15:11.420 --> 01:15:14.720
p .m. on qualifies you for night differential.

01:15:15.380 --> 01:15:18.359
So full night diff is only given to midnight

01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:21.300
guys because they're working 9p to 7a. These

01:15:21.300 --> 01:15:24.399
guys somehow managed to get full night diff for

01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:26.960
themselves, although I can imagine how many times

01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:29.720
they're actually working at night. It's ridiculous.

01:15:30.199 --> 01:15:33.979
I mean, their base pay is well over $200 ,000.

01:15:34.079 --> 01:15:35.800
I think it's like, two and a quarter i want to

01:15:35.800 --> 01:15:38.100
speak out of turn but something like that before

01:15:38.100 --> 01:15:41.300
a moment of all the time for these guys now when

01:15:41.300 --> 01:15:44.039
you say pba is that the union is that the benevolent

01:15:44.039 --> 01:15:46.380
yep okay yeah so this is the benevolent association

01:15:46.380 --> 01:15:49.159
and this is you know again what i hold you know

01:15:49.159 --> 01:15:53.079
the the poor unions accountable i am a huge believer

01:15:53.079 --> 01:15:55.439
in the union philosophy like when we you know

01:15:55.439 --> 01:15:57.560
united we stand divided we fall i mean it makes

01:15:57.560 --> 01:16:01.380
perfect sense but for example our national union

01:16:01.949 --> 01:16:04.550
works you know their headquarters the the president

01:16:04.550 --> 01:16:08.989
is out of boston 42 hour work week 24 72 zero

01:16:08.989 --> 01:16:12.090
conversation of making that you know the standard

01:16:12.090 --> 01:16:14.510
across the country while a lot of our firefighters

01:16:14.510 --> 01:16:17.390
are working yes 56 hours a week our federal firefighters

01:16:17.390 --> 01:16:21.850
are working um 72 hours a week 24 on 24 off so

01:16:21.850 --> 01:16:24.010
there are so many people that just getting absolutely

01:16:24.010 --> 01:16:26.979
battered And our very union that I paid into

01:16:26.979 --> 01:16:29.880
the whole time I was wearing a uniform have never

01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:32.420
mentioned the work week once, which I would argue

01:16:32.420 --> 01:16:34.680
for a union is the very first thing that you

01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:37.460
address is the working conditions. So there are

01:16:37.460 --> 01:16:40.039
great unions out there. Pasco County, shout out

01:16:40.039 --> 01:16:42.539
to Dixon Phillips. Perfect example. Him and his

01:16:42.539 --> 01:16:44.880
people, not just him, of course. But, you know,

01:16:44.899 --> 01:16:48.029
when you take. millions and millions and millions

01:16:48.029 --> 01:16:50.310
of dollars of union dues and then are not fighting

01:16:50.310 --> 01:16:52.210
for your people whether you're a chief whether

01:16:52.210 --> 01:16:54.090
you're a city or county manager or whether you're

01:16:54.090 --> 01:16:57.890
in a union in this case it's disgusting and i

01:16:57.890 --> 01:16:59.810
think the more that we discuss it the more we

01:16:59.810 --> 01:17:01.930
acknowledge it the more we can force change because

01:17:01.930 --> 01:17:04.710
they are not fighting for anyone else but themselves

01:17:04.710 --> 01:17:08.149
in those situations yeah i think it's disgusting

01:17:08.149 --> 01:17:10.550
frankly i mean it's great having a union But

01:17:10.550 --> 01:17:12.210
sometimes when you see the activities, it literally,

01:17:12.350 --> 01:17:15.329
we call it the mafia. Some of the things that

01:17:15.329 --> 01:17:18.310
are done and the way they're accomplished, it

01:17:18.310 --> 01:17:20.250
literally just reminds you of a corrupt government.

01:17:21.170 --> 01:17:23.010
You know, it's great when you need them and they're

01:17:23.010 --> 01:17:25.149
there for you. But other times you're just shaking

01:17:25.149 --> 01:17:26.529
your head like, aren't you guys supposed to be

01:17:26.529 --> 01:17:29.649
advocating for us? You know, it's funny. I thought

01:17:29.649 --> 01:17:32.250
that 2472 was across the board in the U .S. now.

01:17:32.710 --> 01:17:35.829
FDNY has been doing it for so long. My father

01:17:35.829 --> 01:17:39.279
did it at the end of his career. Actually, he

01:17:39.279 --> 01:17:40.939
didn't do it. He drove the chief of the department,

01:17:40.979 --> 01:17:43.239
but it was enacted prior to the end of his career.

01:17:43.439 --> 01:17:45.399
I just assumed everyone had gone to it. That's

01:17:45.399 --> 01:17:50.039
crazy. 24, 24. Yeah. Crazy. Absolutely. I can't

01:17:50.039 --> 01:17:52.800
even imagine. No, no. And then again, it's, you

01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:54.659
know, without going too deep down that rabbit

01:17:54.659 --> 01:17:57.260
hole, if you look at all the things that plague

01:17:57.260 --> 01:18:00.619
first responders. it is directly correlated with

01:18:00.619 --> 01:18:04.000
sleep deprivation, shift work. From the cancers

01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:06.760
to the obesity issues to the testosterone depletion

01:18:06.760 --> 01:18:09.460
to the suicide and addiction, it's not the sole

01:18:09.460 --> 01:18:12.079
thing, but it's an amplifier of literally every

01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:14.760
single one of those. So if you wanted to have

01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:17.239
the biggest bang for your buck, then you look

01:18:17.239 --> 01:18:19.699
at law enforcement shifts and try and give as

01:18:19.699 --> 01:18:21.779
much rest and recovery as you can and stop bouncing

01:18:21.779 --> 01:18:24.479
from day to night, day to night. And in the fire

01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:30.250
side, you put a 24. Do a 24 -hour shift. 72 hours

01:18:30.250 --> 01:18:33.090
is when you return to baseline. That's a 42 -hour

01:18:33.090 --> 01:18:35.390
work week. Going to an accounting thing, if you

01:18:35.390 --> 01:18:37.689
were just working for a firm, you would do a

01:18:37.689 --> 01:18:40.170
40 -hour work week without having to risk your

01:18:40.170 --> 01:18:43.329
life at all or be up all night. So it is such

01:18:43.329 --> 01:18:47.149
a crazy environment that you would have to even

01:18:47.149 --> 01:18:50.810
convince people that the men and women that you

01:18:50.810 --> 01:18:54.739
call on your very worst day. should work at least

01:18:54.739 --> 01:18:57.520
the same number of hours as the person that makes

01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:01.399
your coffee. It's insanity. Yeah, it really is.

01:19:01.560 --> 01:19:03.420
And for those of you who are kind of minimizing

01:19:03.420 --> 01:19:07.420
this sleep condition argument, think about getting

01:19:07.420 --> 01:19:10.020
one horrible night's sleep and how you function

01:19:10.020 --> 01:19:12.800
the next day and then put yourself in a firefighter's

01:19:12.800 --> 01:19:15.039
shoes and it's never going to correct itself.

01:19:15.460 --> 01:19:19.539
I can't even imagine working 24 -24 for you guys.

01:19:19.659 --> 01:19:21.920
I mean, I used to do midnights every now and

01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:24.130
then in overtime. And I enjoyed working at night,

01:19:24.210 --> 01:19:25.970
but the next day you're done. You know, your

01:19:25.970 --> 01:19:28.069
sleep is all off. So I'm going to bed now at

01:19:28.069 --> 01:19:30.130
8 a .m., which I'm usually waking up, probably

01:19:30.130 --> 01:19:33.270
getting up at 2, horrible sleep, those six hours

01:19:33.270 --> 01:19:35.989
that I got. And then I'm going to sleep early

01:19:35.989 --> 01:19:37.890
the next night to make up for it. I can't imagine

01:19:37.890 --> 01:19:40.409
having to go to work the next day again. It's

01:19:40.409 --> 01:19:43.710
horrendous. It is. Yeah, one of my California

01:19:43.710 --> 01:19:47.750
friends just did a five -day shift, so 120 -hour

01:19:47.750 --> 01:19:51.329
shift. I mean, it just, you know, again, the

01:19:51.329 --> 01:19:54.800
potential for, mistakes, et cetera, just through

01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:56.960
the roof, not to mention the, you know, the impact

01:19:56.960 --> 01:20:00.739
on their health. But anyway, I digress. Yeah.

01:20:01.819 --> 01:20:03.800
Yeah. Now they are. This is the problem because

01:20:03.800 --> 01:20:05.340
again, the people that say you're allowed to,

01:20:05.420 --> 01:20:07.439
they go home five o 'clock. It doesn't affect

01:20:07.439 --> 01:20:11.000
them. All right. Well then you move back to New

01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:14.979
York. So what were the differences between the

01:20:14.979 --> 01:20:17.260
time you spent in Atlanta and the rest of your

01:20:17.260 --> 01:20:22.340
career in New York? Wow. It was. The quality

01:20:22.340 --> 01:20:26.260
of life cannot be described. It was one end of

01:20:26.260 --> 01:20:28.380
the spectrum to the next. Put it this way, James.

01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:30.720
I had to literally, I'm not joking about this.

01:20:30.819 --> 01:20:33.260
I had to get used to the fact that when I was

01:20:33.260 --> 01:20:35.220
now driving past people on the street, they were

01:20:35.220 --> 01:20:38.039
not spitting and yelling, fuck the police. And

01:20:38.039 --> 01:20:40.619
people were waving to us. I remember, I clearly

01:20:40.619 --> 01:20:42.300
remember the first time it happened. I was with

01:20:42.300 --> 01:20:45.159
my FTO. Someone waves to us and he waves. I'm

01:20:45.159 --> 01:20:47.960
like, did he just wave hi? He's like, yeah, why?

01:20:48.220 --> 01:20:50.590
I'm like, brother. I go, if they weren't giving

01:20:50.590 --> 01:20:52.390
me a finger, they were not raising a hand in

01:20:52.390 --> 01:20:55.670
Atlanta. And, you know, we'd go maybe get something

01:20:55.670 --> 01:20:57.390
to eat or wherever we were. People would be like,

01:20:57.470 --> 01:21:01.149
officer, thank you so much for what you do. I'm

01:21:01.149 --> 01:21:03.689
like, they're talking to us? Literally, I had

01:21:03.689 --> 01:21:06.810
to change the way I spoke to people. You know,

01:21:06.850 --> 01:21:09.550
you're so, I don't want to say defensive, but

01:21:09.550 --> 01:21:11.869
you're always in like condition orange in Atlanta.

01:21:12.109 --> 01:21:13.710
I mean, you're just ready to rock all your heads

01:21:13.710 --> 01:21:17.319
on a swivel. and it's a lot more of a relaxed

01:21:17.319 --> 01:21:19.380
atmosphere. Not that I was ever in, like, cold

01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:20.720
white where I'm walking around with my head on

01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:23.680
my ass, but just a very, very different dynamic.

01:21:24.979 --> 01:21:27.840
Bosses were great. I wasn't used to that. Atlanta

01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:30.439
was very adversarial a lot of times with bosses.

01:21:30.779 --> 01:21:32.359
Plus, we didn't really have a union, so they

01:21:32.359 --> 01:21:33.699
could do whatever they wanted to us, essentially.

01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:39.960
You know, let's see. What was weird was Atlanta,

01:21:40.060 --> 01:21:42.640
we didn't get paid anything. But our equipment

01:21:42.640 --> 01:21:44.760
was great. We always had the newest, latest gadgets.

01:21:45.319 --> 01:21:47.319
Suffolk was the opposite. We got paid great.

01:21:47.640 --> 01:21:49.659
But I guess consequently, our budget kind of

01:21:49.659 --> 01:21:51.460
suffered in terms of equipment. We have like

01:21:51.460 --> 01:21:56.060
older cars, just older everything. Not the newest

01:21:56.060 --> 01:21:57.880
and greatest of anything. And it surprised me.

01:21:57.880 --> 01:22:00.960
I thought it was going to be the opposite. But

01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:02.800
yeah, it was just, it was a different world.

01:22:02.899 --> 01:22:07.300
The crime that I saw in Atlanta, I saw in Suffolk

01:22:07.300 --> 01:22:11.750
County, but on much, much smaller scale. It was

01:22:11.750 --> 01:22:14.069
nothing close to it that I experienced in Atlanta.

01:22:14.430 --> 01:22:17.989
What were the reasons for the differences? That

01:22:17.989 --> 01:22:21.310
same country, human beings. So when you kind

01:22:21.310 --> 01:22:23.390
of peel back the layers, what were the origins

01:22:23.390 --> 01:22:27.130
of one area being so dangerous and another area

01:22:27.130 --> 01:22:30.710
being more aligned with how we would originally

01:22:30.710 --> 01:22:34.470
think of community policing? Yeah, so when I

01:22:34.470 --> 01:22:37.149
was in Atlanta, I was in the inner city. You

01:22:37.149 --> 01:22:38.989
know, I worked a lot of projects, definitely

01:22:38.989 --> 01:22:42.340
depressed areas. You know, from a socioeconomic

01:22:42.340 --> 01:22:45.880
standpoint, it was night and day. You know, if

01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:48.939
we're kind of looking at a scale here, this being

01:22:48.939 --> 01:22:51.479
the poorest and this being the richest Suffolk

01:22:51.479 --> 01:22:53.779
County, now I'm in the suburbs and you're at

01:22:53.779 --> 01:22:58.300
least, you know, middle class to extremely wealthy,

01:22:58.399 --> 01:23:00.779
depending on where I was in my precinct alone.

01:23:02.460 --> 01:23:05.300
Literally, I mean, I'd say that was the one difference.

01:23:05.380 --> 01:23:08.819
I mean, it was heavily, heavily populated with.

01:23:09.350 --> 01:23:11.949
Black people in Atlanta as well, and much more

01:23:11.949 --> 01:23:14.350
populated with white people in Suffolk, where

01:23:14.350 --> 01:23:19.250
I worked. There was a nice size Spanish population

01:23:19.250 --> 01:23:23.130
in Huntington Village, which is Station, rather,

01:23:23.229 --> 01:23:28.069
one of the areas that I work. But socioeconomically,

01:23:28.109 --> 01:23:32.229
it was just incomparable. It was such a difference

01:23:32.229 --> 01:23:35.569
in, you know, I'm going to guess the average

01:23:35.569 --> 01:23:39.630
income in Atlanta. was probably 15 ,000. And

01:23:39.630 --> 01:23:41.409
where I worked in Suffolk County, I'm going to

01:23:41.409 --> 01:23:43.890
guess it was probably like 75 ,000. I mean, it

01:23:43.890 --> 01:23:48.270
was that much of a discrepancy. It's funny because,

01:23:48.289 --> 01:23:50.689
I mean, this is the thing is that people in their

01:23:50.689 --> 01:23:53.210
mind think of certain areas, oh, that's because

01:23:53.210 --> 01:23:55.210
there's a certain group of people here. And it's

01:23:55.210 --> 01:23:58.170
not. It's like you said, socioeconomic status.

01:23:58.310 --> 01:24:00.729
One of the places I worked in Orange County in

01:24:00.729 --> 01:24:05.859
the Orlando area, we had... like a very strong

01:24:05.859 --> 01:24:09.140
kind of Haitian group that we had. Some people

01:24:09.140 --> 01:24:10.579
were directly there and some people obviously

01:24:10.579 --> 01:24:14.539
were multigenerational. And then we had a place

01:24:14.539 --> 01:24:17.420
called Taft, which was pretty much all white,

01:24:17.479 --> 01:24:21.880
but again, very, very poor. And so we saw similar

01:24:21.880 --> 01:24:24.020
incidents in both of those. And it wasn't about,

01:24:24.020 --> 01:24:26.039
you know, the pigmentation of people's skin.

01:24:26.420 --> 01:24:29.239
It was these behaviors born out of desperation.

01:24:29.239 --> 01:24:31.520
And obviously culturally, you know, Haiti has

01:24:31.520 --> 01:24:33.659
always been you know, going through the mill

01:24:33.659 --> 01:24:35.979
anyway. So if you come from that kind of environment

01:24:35.979 --> 01:24:38.680
into the States, you're already conditioned with

01:24:38.680 --> 01:24:40.720
violence and tragedy and all that kind of thing

01:24:40.720 --> 01:24:43.520
too. So you've got to take that on board. But,

01:24:43.520 --> 01:24:46.560
you know, when I worked for the very last place

01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:49.619
where I was protecting Disney World, you know,

01:24:49.640 --> 01:24:51.680
anyone that was coming there obviously wasn't

01:24:51.680 --> 01:24:53.579
doing too badly because they could afford Disney

01:24:53.579 --> 01:24:56.220
World, which is completely price gouging from

01:24:56.220 --> 01:24:58.640
the moment you drive through the pancakes. So

01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:00.539
you did, you had a different group of people.

01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:02.859
And so, you know, it wasn't about, again, because

01:25:02.859 --> 01:25:05.039
they were from all over the world, but if they

01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:06.960
could afford to go to Disney World, the chances

01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:09.119
of them slinging crack outside Magic Kingdom

01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:11.420
were pretty slim. You know what I mean? Whereas

01:25:11.420 --> 01:25:14.859
Orange Bottom Trail in Orlando, you know, you

01:25:14.859 --> 01:25:16.779
had all the red light activities going on there.

01:25:16.899 --> 01:25:20.239
So when you look at that and you realize that

01:25:20.239 --> 01:25:23.439
if you're just able to kind of help the areas

01:25:23.439 --> 01:25:26.039
that are struggling rise up, like we said, proactive

01:25:26.039 --> 01:25:29.619
initiatives like... you know, drug decriminalization

01:25:29.619 --> 01:25:33.079
and putting real food back in schools and all

01:25:33.079 --> 01:25:34.859
these other things that would make people healthier

01:25:34.859 --> 01:25:38.000
and happier. It wouldn't be about, you know,

01:25:38.000 --> 01:25:40.380
someone's ethnicity. It would just be simply

01:25:40.380 --> 01:25:43.119
raising people up in the wealthiest country on

01:25:43.119 --> 01:25:46.239
the planet so that we're eliminating the desperation

01:25:46.239 --> 01:25:48.260
and therefore a lot of the things that you and

01:25:48.260 --> 01:25:52.220
I saw in our careers. Yeah, absolutely. And,

01:25:52.220 --> 01:25:53.899
you know, when people reference the criminal

01:25:53.899 --> 01:25:57.569
justice system as racist, I say it's not. i say

01:25:57.569 --> 01:26:04.210
it is 100 stacked against poor people you are

01:26:04.210 --> 01:26:08.229
100 getting a different experience if you have

01:26:08.229 --> 01:26:10.189
money as opposed to not having money when you

01:26:10.189 --> 01:26:12.529
go through a court system and that goes for anyone

01:26:12.529 --> 01:26:15.590
um it's got nothing to do with race you know

01:26:15.590 --> 01:26:17.609
if you could afford that thousand dollar an hour

01:26:17.609 --> 01:26:21.170
lawyer you're going to do much better than you

01:26:21.170 --> 01:26:25.079
know a court -appointed public defender um You

01:26:25.079 --> 01:26:27.600
just alluded to the fact serving healthier food.

01:26:28.279 --> 01:26:31.460
James, I remember going into some of these supermarkets

01:26:31.460 --> 01:26:35.079
in the hood and just looking at what people were

01:26:35.079 --> 01:26:38.140
getting served. It was disgusting. And these

01:26:38.140 --> 01:26:39.520
are supermarkets. It's not like it's getting

01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:41.500
sold out of someone's car. I'm like, this is

01:26:41.500 --> 01:26:42.819
nuts. I can't believe these people are getting

01:26:42.819 --> 01:26:45.720
served this quality of food. It was disgusting.

01:26:46.340 --> 01:26:49.239
And frankly, it blew me away. I didn't realize

01:26:49.239 --> 01:26:53.819
that there was such a difference between what...

01:26:54.029 --> 01:26:55.949
you're getting in the hood in a quote unquote

01:26:55.949 --> 01:26:58.170
supermarket. It was a local supermarket, not

01:26:58.170 --> 01:27:00.989
a big chain, as opposed to what people are getting

01:27:00.989 --> 01:27:04.609
in middle income areas. It was disgusting to

01:27:04.609 --> 01:27:07.949
see. I felt so bad. I had a guy on the show,

01:27:08.069 --> 01:27:10.430
Pasi Sahlberg, who's from Finland, but he lives

01:27:10.430 --> 01:27:12.449
in Australia now and basically travels the world

01:27:12.449 --> 01:27:15.409
talking about the Finnish education system, which

01:27:15.409 --> 01:27:17.569
is usually number one in the world rankings.

01:27:18.289 --> 01:27:21.670
And when there is an area that is struggling,

01:27:22.500 --> 01:27:25.100
And we see it here. When an area is struggling,

01:27:25.220 --> 01:27:27.300
the schools get penalized. The grades go down,

01:27:27.319 --> 01:27:29.380
they get less funding. Finland does the opposite.

01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:31.899
When there is a community where maybe they have

01:27:31.899 --> 01:27:33.680
to lean more on the schools and the teachers,

01:27:33.880 --> 01:27:37.279
they put more support, more finances in so that

01:27:37.279 --> 01:27:39.880
they can kind of be that cribbing for that community

01:27:39.880 --> 01:27:43.090
and raise the next generation up. And we do the

01:27:43.090 --> 01:27:45.569
polar opposite here. If you don't score well

01:27:45.569 --> 01:27:48.109
on the standardized test, you get penalized.

01:27:48.149 --> 01:27:50.970
So again, now you've got this kind of class system

01:27:50.970 --> 01:27:53.729
where if you can afford a good education, your

01:27:53.729 --> 01:27:56.869
chances of succeeding in society go up immensely.

01:27:57.310 --> 01:28:00.069
But if you are born into poverty and then the

01:28:00.069 --> 01:28:02.829
schools in those areas are being penalized, what

01:28:02.829 --> 01:28:05.310
are the chances then for you springboarding into

01:28:05.310 --> 01:28:09.829
some amazing career? Yeah, I mean, you're set

01:28:09.829 --> 01:28:13.130
up for failure from the get -go. And it's a shame

01:28:13.130 --> 01:28:18.010
to see. I don't know. I think these charter schools

01:28:18.010 --> 01:28:19.689
are one answer because they seem to be doing

01:28:19.689 --> 01:28:23.470
fantastic in most cities that they've been born.

01:28:23.550 --> 01:28:27.029
But now you have public school unions fighting

01:28:27.029 --> 01:28:30.609
them. They don't want them here. It becomes another

01:28:30.609 --> 01:28:36.010
political hotbed issue. You're never going to...

01:28:36.810 --> 01:28:39.529
be poor and receive the quality of anything that

01:28:39.529 --> 01:28:41.550
you are when you have money it's just a simple

01:28:41.550 --> 01:28:45.210
fact um here anyway other places in the world

01:28:45.210 --> 01:28:48.050
i'm sure are set up differently but uh it's a

01:28:48.050 --> 01:28:50.770
sad but true fact yeah yeah and it takes humility

01:28:50.770 --> 01:28:52.390
and i think this is the problem until we have

01:28:52.390 --> 01:28:57.390
someone let me rephrase that until we redefine

01:28:57.390 --> 01:29:00.189
the way that we even choose the people that we

01:29:00.189 --> 01:29:03.500
call leaders So that you don't have to be a millionaire

01:29:03.500 --> 01:29:05.760
devoid of ethics, that you can just be a good

01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:08.220
person and rise through that. We're going to

01:29:08.220 --> 01:29:10.100
keep getting the same shit every four years.

01:29:10.260 --> 01:29:12.720
You know, we've seen that for decades now. But

01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:14.699
when you have someone who really has a heart

01:29:14.699 --> 01:29:19.390
for the American people. And the humility to

01:29:19.390 --> 01:29:21.789
go to other countries and say, Norway, show us

01:29:21.789 --> 01:29:25.029
how you're doing prisons. The UK, before it's

01:29:25.029 --> 01:29:27.050
got picked apart, talk to me about the national

01:29:27.050 --> 01:29:28.850
health. Finland, talk to me about your schools.

01:29:29.029 --> 01:29:32.029
Japan, how are you avoiding homelessness and

01:29:32.029 --> 01:29:35.010
obesity? I mean, that is how we change it because

01:29:35.010 --> 01:29:37.189
we are an amazing country. But there are a lot

01:29:37.189 --> 01:29:40.640
of areas that we need to fix. But if we keep

01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:43.239
just allowing this system where these, you know,

01:29:43.239 --> 01:29:46.920
wealthy people are lining lobbyist pockets, then,

01:29:47.020 --> 01:29:49.840
you know, we keep getting the same thing and

01:29:49.840 --> 01:29:51.600
we're going to get fatter and sicker and our

01:29:51.600 --> 01:29:53.479
streets and schools are going to get more dangerous

01:29:53.479 --> 01:29:55.960
and our first responders are going to diminish

01:29:55.960 --> 01:29:58.119
down to nothing. And then one day, you know,

01:29:58.199 --> 01:30:01.840
this is genuinely a realistic concern. You're

01:30:01.840 --> 01:30:03.600
going to call 911 and you're just going to get

01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:08.020
a dial tone. That's it. Now what? It's the truth.

01:30:08.300 --> 01:30:11.060
The game is rigged. Something's got to be done,

01:30:11.180 --> 01:30:13.220
you know, revolutionary to change things. Or

01:30:13.220 --> 01:30:14.600
I think that's what we're going to be looking

01:30:14.600 --> 01:30:17.060
at eventually is some type of revolution. I mean,

01:30:17.079 --> 01:30:21.859
the course has to correct itself. And there are

01:30:21.859 --> 01:30:23.960
no simple answers. I mean, we just seem to be

01:30:23.960 --> 01:30:29.079
getting more divided as time goes on. And I don't

01:30:29.079 --> 01:30:30.579
know. I don't know. I don't know what the answers

01:30:30.579 --> 01:30:33.539
are in many respects, you know, just politically,

01:30:33.739 --> 01:30:37.579
socially. We're divided. We're divided people.

01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:40.060
You know, we're supposed to be. It's one thing

01:30:40.060 --> 01:30:41.479
I've learned in this healing journey is that

01:30:41.479 --> 01:30:43.399
we're all connected. But unfortunately, many

01:30:43.399 --> 01:30:46.420
people are hurting and have not healed. And they're

01:30:46.420 --> 01:30:50.079
never going to feel that concept. But we're all

01:30:50.079 --> 01:30:52.000
in this together, whether people like it or not.

01:30:52.520 --> 01:30:56.279
And it's a shame that we have so many teams and

01:30:56.279 --> 01:30:58.960
they're all pitted against each other. Well,

01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:00.600
I mean, I think the reason we have that is because

01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:03.180
there's a mental health crisis. That's why people

01:31:03.180 --> 01:31:05.279
would allow their families and friendships to

01:31:05.279 --> 01:31:09.640
be. fractured by a mask or a vaccine or think

01:31:09.640 --> 01:31:13.180
that an orange or dementia ridden jesus is their

01:31:13.180 --> 01:31:16.460
messiah neither of you have a flying fuck about

01:31:16.460 --> 01:31:19.100
them so that shows to me that when you get people

01:31:19.100 --> 01:31:21.680
stressed and tired enough because they're just

01:31:21.680 --> 01:31:23.619
simply trying to work and pay their mortgage

01:31:23.619 --> 01:31:27.060
that you can then you know cleave the nation

01:31:27.060 --> 01:31:30.279
in the middle and uh yeah do whatever you want

01:31:30.279 --> 01:31:32.859
so i think that the way forward is to is healing.

01:31:32.960 --> 01:31:36.680
I really do. So good segue into this next part

01:31:36.680 --> 01:31:38.920
of the conversation. You mentioned, you kind

01:31:38.920 --> 01:31:42.619
of touched on 2012 and the opioid addiction that

01:31:42.619 --> 01:31:45.640
you had. As you look back now over the last few

01:31:45.640 --> 01:31:48.039
decades, you know, what were some of the lows?

01:31:48.180 --> 01:31:50.800
And then let's kind of walk through how you found

01:31:50.800 --> 01:31:56.720
plant medicine as a solution. Yeah. So let me

01:31:56.720 --> 01:32:01.050
see. Lows. I guess my first marriage, you know,

01:32:01.069 --> 01:32:03.390
I was kind of going through it around that 2010,

01:32:03.890 --> 01:32:08.189
2012 area. She and I had got together in Atlanta.

01:32:08.489 --> 01:32:11.010
We got engaged in Atlanta. We owned a house together.

01:32:11.670 --> 01:32:13.689
And, you know, all along I had said, if I get

01:32:13.689 --> 01:32:16.189
Suffolk County, I'm going to move back up there.

01:32:16.310 --> 01:32:18.789
So she knew every step of the way that that was

01:32:18.789 --> 01:32:21.109
my plan. And, you know, she's like, all right,

01:32:21.109 --> 01:32:23.630
you know, I love you. I'll go. And then when

01:32:23.630 --> 01:32:27.270
we moved up, most of our family that. The part

01:32:27.270 --> 01:32:28.970
that she was really tight was still in Atlanta.

01:32:29.270 --> 01:32:30.869
She was actually born in New York, but her mom

01:32:30.869 --> 01:32:33.630
moved her down when she was five. So she still

01:32:33.630 --> 01:32:36.130
has family in New York, but she and her mom are

01:32:36.130 --> 01:32:38.109
best friends. So it was tough for her to adjust.

01:32:38.630 --> 01:32:42.130
And my family did not make it easy. I have a

01:32:42.130 --> 01:32:45.270
very jealous sister. So I know she didn't want

01:32:45.270 --> 01:32:48.109
to see my mom and her have a good relationship.

01:32:48.229 --> 01:32:50.869
So she tried to sabotage that as much as possible.

01:32:51.590 --> 01:32:53.670
And, you know, to be honest, I was trying to

01:32:53.670 --> 01:32:56.390
make everyone happy. No one was happy. Which

01:32:56.390 --> 01:32:58.850
ended up kind of making me miserable. So that's

01:32:58.850 --> 01:33:01.569
what kind of led to the, you know, the painkillers.

01:33:02.289 --> 01:33:06.090
And, you know, once I got help, things were good

01:33:06.090 --> 01:33:11.890
after that. We ended up splitting in 2018. We

01:33:11.890 --> 01:33:14.229
just become roommates. It was nothing like, you

01:33:14.229 --> 01:33:15.989
know, we were adversarial. We were coming home

01:33:15.989 --> 01:33:18.770
fighting every day. No drama. It's just we became

01:33:18.770 --> 01:33:22.869
roommates. I was turning 50 and my dad had just

01:33:22.869 --> 01:33:24.890
gotten diagnosed with Alzheimer's. He was at

01:33:24.890 --> 01:33:27.010
75. And I'm like, you know what? I don't want

01:33:27.010 --> 01:33:29.729
to spend the next 25 years of my life just kind

01:33:29.729 --> 01:33:31.529
of going through the motions. And if God forbid

01:33:31.529 --> 01:33:33.909
I get diagnosed at 75, I just wasted like, you

01:33:33.909 --> 01:33:38.010
know, that last 25 years. So we ended up splitting.

01:33:38.229 --> 01:33:39.989
And I told her, I'm like, you're going to thank

01:33:39.989 --> 01:33:41.489
me in the end. You're going to find, you know,

01:33:41.489 --> 01:33:43.390
the man of your dreams because I don't think

01:33:43.390 --> 01:33:45.710
it's me. And now looking back that I'm healed.

01:33:46.430 --> 01:33:48.390
I think the reason why I was with my ex -wife

01:33:48.390 --> 01:33:51.149
is because I loved her family and they gave me

01:33:51.149 --> 01:33:54.010
the love that mine never did. And I never realized

01:33:54.010 --> 01:33:57.210
this, as funny as it sounds. But I was talking

01:33:57.210 --> 01:33:59.529
to my now wife. She's very intelligent, very

01:33:59.529 --> 01:34:02.149
into higher consciousness thing, life coach.

01:34:02.270 --> 01:34:06.329
And I was just telling her, you know, I couldn't

01:34:06.329 --> 01:34:08.869
figure out why. And we got deep. And I'm like,

01:34:08.949 --> 01:34:10.630
you know what? She's like, that was a theory.

01:34:10.689 --> 01:34:12.770
I'm like. I think it's exactly what happened.

01:34:12.909 --> 01:34:17.329
And they took me in, treated me like I was, you

01:34:17.329 --> 01:34:19.670
know, their son -in -law from day one. Always

01:34:19.670 --> 01:34:23.109
listened to me, listened to my opinions, you

01:34:23.109 --> 01:34:24.869
know, just showed me love. And I just never,

01:34:24.949 --> 01:34:26.810
I literally never sat down in my entire life

01:34:26.810 --> 01:34:28.890
with my father and just had a conversation. It

01:34:28.890 --> 01:34:31.649
was always him telling me what to do. And my

01:34:31.649 --> 01:34:32.989
father -in -law was one of the most intelligent

01:34:32.989 --> 01:34:35.170
men I ever knew in my life. And he would sit

01:34:35.170 --> 01:34:40.220
down, listen to me speak, and just... Treat me

01:34:40.220 --> 01:34:42.739
with the utmost respect. I knew he was a hundred

01:34:42.739 --> 01:34:44.640
times smarter than me, but you would never know

01:34:44.640 --> 01:34:47.699
it if you overheard our conversation. And, you

01:34:47.699 --> 01:34:50.119
know, it was just, it was a relationship of respect

01:34:50.119 --> 01:34:52.500
and love. And that's why I stayed with her. So

01:34:52.500 --> 01:34:55.319
I was able to answer that question finally. But

01:34:55.319 --> 01:35:00.880
yeah, the low point, I guess, was I got injured

01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:04.340
at work September 22nd of 2020. We were helping

01:35:04.340 --> 01:35:06.819
a 500 pound woman up the stairs. We get to the

01:35:06.819 --> 01:35:08.720
top of the stairs, the rookies pulling her up.

01:35:09.159 --> 01:35:11.380
I have to lift her right leg up. And the last

01:35:11.380 --> 01:35:13.220
step, I put her right leg on the top step and

01:35:13.220 --> 01:35:15.140
I see a leg, a foot starts slipping backwards.

01:35:15.819 --> 01:35:18.619
And I just crouched down and just kind of blasted

01:35:18.619 --> 01:35:20.699
her up the stairs when I did a herniated four

01:35:20.699 --> 01:35:24.260
discs and ended up needing surgery about six

01:35:24.260 --> 01:35:29.060
months later. I fixed some issues, but I needed

01:35:29.060 --> 01:35:31.260
a spinal fusion the following year. So this is

01:35:31.260 --> 01:35:36.210
April of 22. I was medically retired in... October

01:35:36.210 --> 01:35:38.069
of 22, which is about two years to the day I

01:35:38.069 --> 01:35:39.970
got hurt. And then I had to go one more year

01:35:39.970 --> 01:35:42.050
for a workers' comp case. So three years of no

01:35:42.050 --> 01:35:44.310
work, no volunteering, wasn't allowed to go to

01:35:44.310 --> 01:35:46.869
the gym. I built one in my house, but essentially

01:35:46.869 --> 01:35:49.069
wasn't allowed to do anything. It was a man without

01:35:49.069 --> 01:35:52.310
a purpose. And idle hands are the devil's work,

01:35:52.390 --> 01:35:55.189
man. I just started thinking. And it's funny,

01:35:55.270 --> 01:35:57.350
as I was retiring, I'm like, man, I'm lucky I

01:35:57.350 --> 01:35:59.470
got out unscathed. I just, I thought everything

01:35:59.470 --> 01:36:04.930
was good. But I don't know, calls and... Just

01:36:04.930 --> 01:36:07.350
feelings were popping up. I was getting angry.

01:36:07.470 --> 01:36:09.829
I was getting depressed. I was having rage issues.

01:36:11.649 --> 01:36:13.750
You know, I'd say a crossword to my wife here

01:36:13.750 --> 01:36:15.909
and there, which she's the greatest woman in

01:36:15.909 --> 01:36:17.170
the world. Every time I do it, I'm like, what

01:36:17.170 --> 01:36:19.470
are you doing, asshole? And it was not crazy.

01:36:19.689 --> 01:36:21.069
It was almost like we were getting crazy fights,

01:36:21.149 --> 01:36:22.930
but it'd just be rude. And there was no reason

01:36:22.930 --> 01:36:24.189
for it. I couldn't figure out what was going

01:36:24.189 --> 01:36:26.250
on. And then I sat down to watch a Sean Ryan

01:36:26.250 --> 01:36:29.130
podcast episode in spring of 23. He's interviewing

01:36:29.130 --> 01:36:32.079
a man named Eddie Penny, former Navy SEAL. a

01:36:32.079 --> 01:36:34.460
Team 6 guy, and he was just recounting a story

01:36:34.460 --> 01:36:37.180
of the Extortion 17 incident in which a Chinook

01:36:37.180 --> 01:36:39.220
was shot down in Afghanistan, killing all 38

01:36:39.220 --> 01:36:41.880
aboard, including 17 SEALs. It was the largest

01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:44.560
loss of community ever, and included in the dead

01:36:44.560 --> 01:36:46.859
was Jason Workman, his best friend. And as Eddie

01:36:46.859 --> 01:36:49.920
told the story of escorting Jason's body back

01:36:49.920 --> 01:36:52.619
to Utah, his hometown, and then finally to Arlington

01:36:52.619 --> 01:36:55.420
National Cemetery, he was crying, you know, rightly

01:36:55.420 --> 01:36:58.220
so. He was very upset. And I simultaneously began

01:36:58.220 --> 01:37:00.140
thinking about a call I had five years before

01:37:00.140 --> 01:37:02.300
about a two -year -old floating in a pool. I

01:37:02.300 --> 01:37:05.060
buried that call. It was actually the one call

01:37:05.060 --> 01:37:07.739
in my 30 -year career I started crying. And I

01:37:07.739 --> 01:37:10.020
told myself, like, you fucking pussy, you can't

01:37:10.020 --> 01:37:12.319
cry. I stopped myself immediately. It would have

01:37:12.319 --> 01:37:14.140
been the best thing I could have done, but we

01:37:14.140 --> 01:37:16.979
don't cry, man. And as I'm thinking about this,

01:37:17.039 --> 01:37:20.109
I just burst out. I'm just crying like a... baby.

01:37:20.609 --> 01:37:23.529
I had no idea. I'm like, what is going on, man?

01:37:24.050 --> 01:37:26.689
And kind of put two and two together really quick.

01:37:27.750 --> 01:37:29.189
Realized that the feelings I'd been going through

01:37:29.189 --> 01:37:32.210
those past about a year at that point were some

01:37:32.210 --> 01:37:36.050
sort of PTSD from my job. And I always mistakenly

01:37:36.050 --> 01:37:37.869
thought the PTSD was only caused by seeing your

01:37:37.869 --> 01:37:40.210
brother or sister next to you get killed. But

01:37:40.210 --> 01:37:42.270
mine, again, was caused by being inside those

01:37:42.270 --> 01:37:44.250
most devastating intimate moments of other people's

01:37:44.250 --> 01:37:47.689
lives. And I knew I needed help. Wasn't sure

01:37:47.689 --> 01:37:50.060
I was going to do it. I didn't want to be this

01:37:50.060 --> 01:37:51.979
ornery guy that hated everyone and everything.

01:37:52.239 --> 01:37:54.800
You and I have both seen it over and over. And

01:37:54.800 --> 01:37:57.539
I started really kind of researching modalities

01:37:57.539 --> 01:38:01.840
of healing. I had heard these special force operators

01:38:01.840 --> 01:38:04.300
coming back from war, self -professed broken

01:38:04.300 --> 01:38:07.819
men, and their consequent healing journeys with

01:38:07.819 --> 01:38:11.359
psychedelics. But I kind of dismissed it. And

01:38:11.359 --> 01:38:13.859
I thought it was like, you know, foo -foo. It's

01:38:13.859 --> 01:38:16.359
not for me. And now I started paying attention.

01:38:17.100 --> 01:38:19.479
And I was watching podcasts. I was researching.

01:38:20.359 --> 01:38:22.960
It finally came to the realization that ayahuasca

01:38:22.960 --> 01:38:26.100
just felt calling me. So myself and my wife went

01:38:26.100 --> 01:38:28.140
to a facility called SoulQuest Ayahuasca Church

01:38:28.140 --> 01:38:33.800
in Orlando, Florida, March 1st of 2024. And we

01:38:33.800 --> 01:38:36.600
sat for three journeys over the course of a weekend.

01:38:36.920 --> 01:38:39.560
And my life was forever changed, literally after

01:38:39.560 --> 01:38:43.079
the first ceremony. And as I was coming out of

01:38:43.079 --> 01:38:45.300
it, and let me preface it by saying I had two

01:38:45.300 --> 01:38:47.539
former co -workers and friends. from Suffolk

01:38:47.539 --> 01:38:50.960
County PD that had committed suicide three weeks

01:38:50.960 --> 01:38:52.300
before. The sergeant actually killed himself

01:38:52.300 --> 01:38:55.619
in a precinct locker room. And the universe told

01:38:55.619 --> 01:38:57.960
me, you are healed. Now, obviously, I'm not this

01:38:57.960 --> 01:39:02.520
healed human. You know, you go through stuff

01:39:02.520 --> 01:39:05.159
every day. But essentially, your PTSD is healed.

01:39:05.600 --> 01:39:08.119
Your life's purpose is to go forth and help other

01:39:08.119 --> 01:39:09.460
freshers, entrepreneurs, and vets heal theirs.

01:39:09.699 --> 01:39:12.439
And I literally said, okay, out loud. I wasn't

01:39:12.439 --> 01:39:15.800
sure I was going to do it. one thing i decided

01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:18.000
to do is start my podcast and you know we'll

01:39:18.000 --> 01:39:20.539
get into this but essentially over the course

01:39:20.539 --> 01:39:24.920
of that weekend i changed my entire life i've

01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:26.560
had you know numerous people on here have done

01:39:26.560 --> 01:39:29.340
all kinds of journeys from ibogaine to ayahuasca

01:39:29.340 --> 01:39:32.180
to mdma ketamine i mean this this is the thing

01:39:32.180 --> 01:39:34.239
there's so many tools in the toolbox that people

01:39:34.239 --> 01:39:36.100
don't realize are available to them and this

01:39:36.100 --> 01:39:39.659
is where i think you know the hope is a lot of

01:39:39.659 --> 01:39:42.770
them though you know they they reframe the way

01:39:42.770 --> 01:39:45.210
that they saw certain things you know some of

01:39:45.210 --> 01:39:46.869
them if there was an addiction obviously ibogaine

01:39:46.869 --> 01:39:48.750
they literally walked out not wanting opioids

01:39:48.750 --> 01:39:51.590
not wanting alcohol anymore what were some of

01:39:51.590 --> 01:39:55.050
the the kind of areas of enlightenment or you

01:39:55.050 --> 01:39:57.430
know boxes that were hidden away that were opened

01:39:57.430 --> 01:40:02.130
through these journeys that you experienced yeah

01:40:02.130 --> 01:40:05.170
so just like you said i tell people that the

01:40:05.170 --> 01:40:07.880
medicine lets you see things That you've always

01:40:07.880 --> 01:40:09.520
seen in a different perspective. It lets you

01:40:09.520 --> 01:40:11.399
see things that you've never seen or noticed.

01:40:11.739 --> 01:40:14.239
And it just kind of breaks down the walls that

01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:17.420
have been surrounding you. So I literally, when

01:40:17.420 --> 01:40:20.060
it started, the medicine kicked in, I don't know,

01:40:20.100 --> 01:40:23.439
40 minutes or so after we drank. And ayahuasca

01:40:23.439 --> 01:40:25.180
is essentially served like a shot glass. You

01:40:25.180 --> 01:40:29.439
drink it. And it's two vines that are found in

01:40:29.439 --> 01:40:31.420
the Amazon. And they're essentially boiled together.

01:40:31.939 --> 01:40:34.479
You just boil and boil and boil and keep boiling

01:40:34.479 --> 01:40:36.420
them down. And you get that finished product.

01:40:37.159 --> 01:40:38.760
filter out the impurities and you're drinking

01:40:38.760 --> 01:40:42.640
it so uh i started feeling the effects about

01:40:42.640 --> 01:40:44.760
40 minutes in the ground started moving i started

01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:47.720
seeing the most bright dynamic vivid colors of

01:40:47.720 --> 01:40:50.380
my life started seeing geometric excuse me geometric

01:40:50.380 --> 01:40:55.420
patterns in the sky and i remember i had my arms

01:40:55.420 --> 01:40:58.760
out wide and i was just saying please i need

01:40:58.760 --> 01:41:01.500
help you have to help me get rid of this rage

01:41:01.500 --> 01:41:05.550
this ang i was crying um my journey was It was

01:41:05.550 --> 01:41:06.909
almost as though I was looking at a big screen

01:41:06.909 --> 01:41:09.890
TV and most people say they sense a female presence.

01:41:09.989 --> 01:41:11.449
I did the same. They call her mother or mother

01:41:11.449 --> 01:41:14.029
ayahuasca. And mother was in like the left -hand

01:41:14.029 --> 01:41:17.369
corner of my screen. And I'm like, mother, I

01:41:17.369 --> 01:41:19.289
need help. I can't get rid of this rage, this

01:41:19.289 --> 01:41:23.109
anger, this hatred. And it was nuts. It was as

01:41:23.109 --> 01:41:25.210
though every time I asked something, it was requested.

01:41:25.289 --> 01:41:27.229
And it was like just a weight lifted off my shoulder.

01:41:28.930 --> 01:41:31.130
I remember one part of the journey, she was bringing

01:41:31.130 --> 01:41:33.970
my dad to me and it was like this big buildup.

01:41:34.569 --> 01:41:37.210
um the music that had been playing in the ceremony

01:41:37.210 --> 01:41:40.310
area was like building and building and it finally

01:41:40.310 --> 01:41:42.289
hit this crescendo and i finally was in reality

01:41:42.289 --> 01:41:46.010
just same volume nothing changed and then all

01:41:46.010 --> 01:41:47.989
of a sudden it stopped in reality it was still

01:41:47.989 --> 01:41:50.430
going on but and i'm waiting and waiting and

01:41:50.430 --> 01:41:52.810
finally i know he's not going to show and i just

01:41:52.810 --> 01:41:54.289
threw my hands in the air i remember saying out

01:41:54.289 --> 01:41:56.250
loud i'm like coward i knew he wouldn't show

01:41:56.250 --> 01:41:59.050
he couldn't talk about emotion but it was nuts

01:41:59.050 --> 01:42:01.989
it was though at the time i think it was 54 55.

01:42:02.989 --> 01:42:06.470
It was as though all of the emotional charge

01:42:06.470 --> 01:42:09.930
of all of our memories was just gone. Like, I

01:42:09.930 --> 01:42:12.350
was thinking of things between he and I, and

01:42:12.350 --> 01:42:14.989
there was nothing attached to it. Like, instantaneously,

01:42:15.069 --> 01:42:18.390
it was nuts. I remember also, I was watching

01:42:18.390 --> 01:42:21.210
the volunteers work, and they're there for anything

01:42:21.210 --> 01:42:23.869
that we need. And I'm like, I want to be more

01:42:23.869 --> 01:42:26.689
like these people, so loving and gracious. Like,

01:42:26.689 --> 01:42:29.510
look at them. And most of them weren't big. And

01:42:29.510 --> 01:42:32.600
I remember thinking, like, I always... equated

01:42:32.600 --> 01:42:34.859
being strong with like physical stature and physical

01:42:34.859 --> 01:42:37.840
strength and fighting ability and you know shooting

01:42:37.840 --> 01:42:40.260
ability whatever the case may be and maybe there's

01:42:40.260 --> 01:42:42.119
a place for that in our respective profession

01:42:42.119 --> 01:42:45.560
but i'm like that's not strength man it's strength

01:42:45.560 --> 01:43:09.340
what they're doing takes strength I remember

01:43:09.340 --> 01:43:12.619
saying, like, I want to be a more loving man.

01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:14.699
I want to be more sympathetic, more empathetic.

01:43:15.100 --> 01:43:24.640
And I felt like I was becoming that, like, instantly.

01:43:28.939 --> 01:43:30.579
I'm trying to think what else I was asking for,

01:43:30.699 --> 01:43:34.199
but, you know, I was just telling her, like,

01:43:34.220 --> 01:43:36.579
I want to be more like these people. i just want

01:43:36.579 --> 01:43:38.319
to be a loving man i want to be a good man i

01:43:38.319 --> 01:43:43.279
want to be a good husband and uh i don't know

01:43:43.279 --> 01:43:45.300
everything i was asked for was like being granted

01:43:45.300 --> 01:43:50.359
immediately and i just felt like my soul changing

01:43:50.359 --> 01:43:54.520
i can't describe it and at that conclusion of

01:43:54.520 --> 01:43:59.380
four hours like i knew i i just felt like i was

01:43:59.380 --> 01:44:06.250
reborn in a non -religious sense and uh I don't

01:44:06.250 --> 01:44:08.750
know, I can't describe. Like there was so much

01:44:08.750 --> 01:44:11.729
joy. You know, in one respect, I'm like waiting

01:44:11.729 --> 01:44:13.649
for the balloon to pop and it's all going to

01:44:13.649 --> 01:44:16.130
go back to the way it was. And the other, I'm

01:44:16.130 --> 01:44:18.810
like, man, it's changed my life for four hours.

01:44:19.590 --> 01:44:21.649
It was the most powerful cathartic thing like

01:44:21.649 --> 01:44:25.670
I've ever been through in my entire life. One

01:44:25.670 --> 01:44:27.989
of the, I think, misconceptions about a lot of

01:44:27.989 --> 01:44:30.090
these therapies is like the magic bullet. Like

01:44:30.090 --> 01:44:32.010
you just go through and you do it and now everything's

01:44:32.010 --> 01:44:34.010
going to be great. You're living a Disney movie

01:44:34.010 --> 01:44:36.510
the rest of your life. One of the truths that

01:44:36.510 --> 01:44:40.390
emerged is that it seems like, again, this has

01:44:40.390 --> 01:44:42.569
given you the ability to open the closet door,

01:44:42.710 --> 01:44:46.189
but then now you have to go through, sift through

01:44:46.189 --> 01:44:49.050
all the boxes and start unpacking things. What

01:44:49.050 --> 01:44:52.270
have you started using as far as the tools after

01:44:52.270 --> 01:44:55.149
these experiences to continue your healing journey?

01:44:56.949 --> 01:44:59.789
Yeah, so it's a great point that the medicine

01:44:59.789 --> 01:45:05.319
allows you to heal, but it is not. number one

01:45:05.319 --> 01:45:09.140
it's not magic and number two you're never healed

01:45:09.140 --> 01:45:12.539
um you're always going through trauma but the

01:45:12.539 --> 01:45:14.439
biggest thing that allowed me to do is become

01:45:14.439 --> 01:45:17.619
vulnerable like just now if first of all i never

01:45:17.619 --> 01:45:21.020
would have been able to cry um prior to this

01:45:21.020 --> 01:45:23.619
and if i did i'd be so embarrassed but now i'm

01:45:23.619 --> 01:45:27.140
frankly proud of it um and it allowed me to have

01:45:27.140 --> 01:45:30.619
conversations like this with other men and you

01:45:30.619 --> 01:45:35.420
know talk about their most intimate And anything

01:45:35.420 --> 01:45:37.800
I say, like I used to feel so weak talking about

01:45:37.800 --> 01:45:40.579
anything that had to do with emotion. Now I talk

01:45:40.579 --> 01:45:44.960
about any and everything. And, you know, I think

01:45:44.960 --> 01:45:48.399
I have the ability to allow others to open up

01:45:48.399 --> 01:45:50.359
to me. Like, you know, I'm told all the time

01:45:50.359 --> 01:45:51.899
by guys like, bro, I never tell this to anyone.

01:45:52.199 --> 01:45:54.159
You know, I can't believe what I'm telling you.

01:45:54.180 --> 01:45:55.859
I'm like, hey, bro, there's no judgment, man.

01:45:56.180 --> 01:45:59.260
I'm like, I've been through fucking, no one's

01:45:59.260 --> 01:46:01.079
been through everything, but you can't tell me

01:46:01.079 --> 01:46:04.560
someone's going to shock me. And we all think

01:46:04.560 --> 01:46:06.000
that we're alone and we don't feel these things,

01:46:06.100 --> 01:46:08.840
when in fact we all feel whatever we're describing.

01:46:10.020 --> 01:46:11.600
You know, it's one of the biggest things about

01:46:11.600 --> 01:46:14.539
this PTSD is everyone thinks they're alone. And,

01:46:14.619 --> 01:46:19.779
you know, I could turn to cops right now. You

01:46:19.779 --> 01:46:21.140
could turn to firemen right now. I could turn

01:46:21.140 --> 01:46:22.220
to firemen right now. You could turn to cops.

01:46:22.500 --> 01:46:25.039
We describe what we're feeling. And if these

01:46:25.039 --> 01:46:26.479
guys allow themselves to open up, you're going

01:46:26.479 --> 01:46:28.300
to see hands raised like, hey, James, I feel

01:46:28.300 --> 01:46:30.100
the same exact way, man. I thought I was the

01:46:30.100 --> 01:46:32.729
only one. There's hundreds of thousands, if not

01:46:32.729 --> 01:46:34.989
millions of us going through it. It doesn't have

01:46:34.989 --> 01:46:37.970
to be first responders or vets, civilians. You

01:46:37.970 --> 01:46:39.529
don't have to be in these quote -unquote warrior

01:46:39.529 --> 01:46:41.350
cultures who have experienced trauma. Everyone

01:46:41.350 --> 01:46:44.729
experiences it. But now the greatest gift it's

01:46:44.729 --> 01:46:46.729
given me is the ability to become vulnerable

01:46:46.729 --> 01:46:53.039
and just talk and allow others to see. and feel

01:46:53.039 --> 01:46:56.100
like my deepest emotions um i've been going through

01:46:56.100 --> 01:46:58.199
it like the past couple of weeks been down a

01:46:58.199 --> 01:47:00.439
little bit and you know i made a couple of reels

01:47:00.439 --> 01:47:03.159
about it but when i have guys check up on me

01:47:03.159 --> 01:47:06.579
it's not i'm good bro together kind of going

01:47:06.579 --> 01:47:09.920
through it man imposter syndrome hit again and

01:47:09.920 --> 01:47:13.279
uh my mom passed uh just about a year and a half

01:47:13.279 --> 01:47:16.319
ago we were strange like the last month of her

01:47:16.319 --> 01:47:19.260
life and I didn't really process that. Or when

01:47:19.260 --> 01:47:20.739
I did last year, it was processed with anger.

01:47:21.279 --> 01:47:23.220
So I'm kind of sitting with that now, going through

01:47:23.220 --> 01:47:26.100
those feelings. And, you know, it's weird. Like

01:47:26.100 --> 01:47:29.239
I felt unloved, to be frank. And saying that

01:47:29.239 --> 01:47:31.699
used to, I never would have said it out loud,

01:47:31.800 --> 01:47:33.760
but I would have felt like such a weakling if

01:47:33.760 --> 01:47:37.140
I had allowed myself to say it. And now, you

01:47:37.140 --> 01:47:40.039
know, I talk about it openly. Like this is how

01:47:40.039 --> 01:47:42.020
I'm feeling. And there are plenty of other guys

01:47:42.020 --> 01:47:43.359
that feel the same way. They're just afraid to

01:47:43.359 --> 01:47:46.060
say it as well. So, you know, I talk about my

01:47:46.060 --> 01:47:48.359
feelings in hopes that. it resonates with them

01:47:48.359 --> 01:47:50.560
and they're able to raise their hand. Exactly

01:47:50.560 --> 01:47:52.960
what happened with me and Annie Penny, like I

01:47:52.960 --> 01:47:55.140
know now subconsciously this warrior is crying

01:47:55.140 --> 01:47:59.060
and it gave me permission to do so. So everything

01:47:59.060 --> 01:48:01.819
I do is kind of geared towards men and women

01:48:01.819 --> 01:48:03.800
who are going through it now in the hopes that

01:48:03.800 --> 01:48:05.920
I can give them permission to do so and raise

01:48:05.920 --> 01:48:07.720
their hand and ask for help. You know, all my

01:48:07.720 --> 01:48:10.300
guests, if they hear their stories, it resonates

01:48:10.300 --> 01:48:12.319
with them. And I identify with them and realize,

01:48:12.560 --> 01:48:15.380
you know, Zach Ferguson was my third guest. And

01:48:15.380 --> 01:48:17.979
we both cried on the episode. We got done recording.

01:48:18.100 --> 01:48:19.619
I'm like, brother, that was beautiful. Someone's

01:48:19.619 --> 01:48:21.479
going to see a Navy SEAL crying just like me

01:48:21.479 --> 01:48:24.399
and think, man, if he could cry, I'd fucking

01:48:24.399 --> 01:48:26.560
cry too. That's not weakness. It's actually strength.

01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:29.020
And it is. It's a sign of absolute strength.

01:48:29.619 --> 01:48:31.800
Raising your hand and ask for help. Acknowledging

01:48:31.800 --> 01:48:36.270
feelings. Talking about feelings. You know? being

01:48:36.270 --> 01:48:39.229
tatted up and then also the and knowing how to

01:48:39.229 --> 01:48:41.729
shoot good that's not strength you know it's

01:48:41.729 --> 01:48:45.670
totally totally different it's uh you know we

01:48:45.670 --> 01:48:48.109
equate like i used to do like physical stats

01:48:48.109 --> 01:48:50.510
and all that with strength now being able to

01:48:50.510 --> 01:48:53.369
talk and help people is a sign of that strength

01:48:53.369 --> 01:48:58.920
i've used this analogy a lot recently when you

01:48:58.920 --> 01:49:01.220
look at what a healthy human being is, it's the

01:49:01.220 --> 01:49:03.760
yin and the yang. And if you look at what brought

01:49:03.760 --> 01:49:07.380
us into uniform, it is the soft feminine side.

01:49:07.600 --> 01:49:09.739
It's compassion, it's empathy, it's kindness,

01:49:09.840 --> 01:49:12.779
it's service that drives us into uniform. Now,

01:49:12.800 --> 01:49:14.720
if you're going into a school shooting or I'm

01:49:14.720 --> 01:49:16.840
going into a structure fire, yeah, that's then

01:49:16.840 --> 01:49:19.300
when we need the, I think it's the yang, the

01:49:19.300 --> 01:49:22.199
hard masculine side for us to get in that flow

01:49:22.199 --> 01:49:23.880
state where we're not thinking about emotions,

01:49:23.920 --> 01:49:27.039
we're just doing the job. But then after is when

01:49:27.039 --> 01:49:29.039
you need to lean back in for that other side,

01:49:29.199 --> 01:49:31.640
showing your self -compassion, your team, whoever

01:49:31.640 --> 01:49:35.920
it is. And as you alluded to, the kind of fake

01:49:35.920 --> 01:49:39.199
machismo that we were raised on with the Schwarzeneggers

01:49:39.199 --> 01:49:41.939
and the Stallones as supposedly the epitome of

01:49:41.939 --> 01:49:44.500
masculinity or fucking John Wayne, which I never

01:49:44.500 --> 01:49:47.039
understood why people thought he was a manly

01:49:47.039 --> 01:49:53.289
man. But anyway, but yeah, and that's how you

01:49:53.289 --> 01:49:55.229
end up with the tattoos and the shape, you know,

01:49:55.250 --> 01:49:57.850
that's, that's the epitome of the, you know,

01:49:57.850 --> 01:50:00.609
the salty firefighter or the hard nosed cop,

01:50:00.710 --> 01:50:04.989
but that's the white circle. You've removed any

01:50:04.989 --> 01:50:07.979
of the, the, the, uh, the yang at this point

01:50:07.979 --> 01:50:09.779
so i always get those two confused i should really

01:50:09.779 --> 01:50:11.619
have it on my wall so i couldn't get it right

01:50:11.619 --> 01:50:14.359
but the the soft my wife told me last night supposedly

01:50:14.359 --> 01:50:17.319
it's yeah i think it's young it's not she's like

01:50:17.319 --> 01:50:19.520
it's not yang she's studying for a uh a yoga

01:50:19.520 --> 01:50:21.439
certification and they were talking about it

01:50:21.439 --> 01:50:23.140
in depth so i have to look it up myself because

01:50:23.140 --> 01:50:24.739
i'm like i've been saying yang my whole life

01:50:24.739 --> 01:50:27.460
yeah exactly exactly so but that's the problem

01:50:27.460 --> 01:50:30.020
is that you get this facade of masculinity not

01:50:30.020 --> 01:50:33.220
real masculine a real man as you said can be

01:50:33.220 --> 01:50:35.619
dangerous when they need to be and kind and compassionate

01:50:35.619 --> 01:50:38.060
when they need to be. And that includes a team

01:50:38.060 --> 01:50:41.140
room, a fire station. Exactly. So the danger

01:50:41.140 --> 01:50:43.239
we have is now you think you're this white circle

01:50:43.239 --> 01:50:45.220
and then you transition out the other side and

01:50:45.220 --> 01:50:47.520
you lose your identity and no one gives a shit

01:50:47.520 --> 01:50:49.560
in Publix that you were a cop or a firefighter

01:50:49.560 --> 01:50:52.760
anymore. And then, you know, that becomes horrendous.

01:50:53.260 --> 01:50:56.060
But just as you've said, and this is why I've

01:50:56.060 --> 01:50:59.960
got over 1100 guests now, many Navy SEALs, SAS,

01:51:00.359 --> 01:51:04.159
Delta, etc. who have been courageously vulnerable

01:51:04.159 --> 01:51:06.920
on this podcast. That's what makes them a man.

01:51:07.319 --> 01:51:09.880
Yes, their skill set obviously is something to

01:51:09.880 --> 01:51:12.420
be revered, but the fact that they were brave

01:51:12.420 --> 01:51:14.920
enough to put it all out there, and you and I

01:51:14.920 --> 01:51:18.319
spoke about the other day, anyone listening can't

01:51:18.319 --> 01:51:20.399
go, oh, that guy's just being a pussy because

01:51:20.399 --> 01:51:23.760
he's a SEAL Team 6 guy or a Delta or SAF. No,

01:51:23.899 --> 01:51:26.600
no, no. You don't get to call those guys a pussy.

01:51:27.140 --> 01:51:30.140
When it comes to courage on the battlefield.

01:51:30.760 --> 01:51:33.659
They are the tip of the spear, truly. So if they

01:51:33.659 --> 01:51:37.619
can be courageously vulnerable and you're a firefighter

01:51:37.619 --> 01:51:41.640
or a cop or a plumber or a teacher, stop thinking

01:51:41.640 --> 01:51:45.439
that this facade of being a tough guy. Understand

01:51:45.439 --> 01:51:49.220
that real masculinity, real courage is this vulnerability

01:51:49.220 --> 01:51:54.159
that we're talking about. Yeah, 100%. I actually

01:51:54.159 --> 01:51:56.260
went for training with GBRS group last year and

01:51:56.260 --> 01:51:59.170
DJ Shipley and I got into a... Pretty deep conversation

01:51:59.170 --> 01:52:01.909
at the end of one of the days. And DJ's gone

01:52:01.909 --> 01:52:04.970
through Ibogaine healing journey. And we were

01:52:04.970 --> 01:52:07.770
talking about how, you know, respectively, each

01:52:07.770 --> 01:52:11.350
of us didn't feel anything. And, you know, I

01:52:11.350 --> 01:52:12.869
was like, DJ, no matter what uniform we put on,

01:52:12.970 --> 01:52:15.350
we're a human being first. And what the fuck

01:52:15.350 --> 01:52:17.789
is the point of living if you feel nothing? Like

01:52:17.789 --> 01:52:20.170
life is beautiful, but we're going through it

01:52:20.170 --> 01:52:22.430
and not feeling shit. We're deflecting everything

01:52:22.430 --> 01:52:24.609
off of us, man. Trying to keep the pain at bay,

01:52:24.689 --> 01:52:26.609
but then we keep everything at bay, including

01:52:26.609 --> 01:52:29.300
our loved ones. And, you know, his big thing

01:52:29.300 --> 01:52:32.079
was like he was yelling at his daughters and

01:52:32.079 --> 01:52:34.779
wife and kind of couldn't help himself. And that's

01:52:34.779 --> 01:52:36.680
what his father did to him. And, you know, he

01:52:36.680 --> 01:52:40.079
was seeing himself exactly the way his father

01:52:40.079 --> 01:52:42.760
was treating him as a kid. And he's like, I didn't

01:52:42.760 --> 01:52:44.859
want that. You know, I realized that I do not

01:52:44.859 --> 01:52:46.000
want to have my kids. I don't want to be that

01:52:46.000 --> 01:52:51.159
man. And, you know, it is you could be a warrior,

01:52:51.220 --> 01:52:55.350
but there is a lot more to a man than just. you

01:52:55.350 --> 01:52:58.369
know, being capable in that field, you know,

01:52:58.390 --> 01:53:00.050
what else are you going to do? How are you going

01:53:00.050 --> 01:53:02.609
to raise children? What kind of husband are you

01:53:02.609 --> 01:53:04.390
going to be? What kind of friend are you going

01:53:04.390 --> 01:53:07.130
to be? Yeah, you're a tough guy, but that's all

01:53:07.130 --> 01:53:08.750
you have to provide to the world? Well, it's

01:53:08.750 --> 01:53:11.989
not going to get you too far, man. And, you know,

01:53:12.010 --> 01:53:17.029
this vulnerability is, it's getting maybe easier

01:53:17.029 --> 01:53:19.630
for guys to express, but it's still a lot of

01:53:19.630 --> 01:53:23.149
work that needs to be done to get guys to open

01:53:23.149 --> 01:53:27.819
up because we are. emotionally not intelligent

01:53:27.819 --> 01:53:31.260
a lot of the times it's funny you mentioned that

01:53:31.260 --> 01:53:34.319
you had you know a darker time the last couple

01:53:34.319 --> 01:53:36.359
of weeks i've had the exact same thing timeline

01:53:36.359 --> 01:53:38.859
wise and you know i know exactly what it is there's

01:53:38.859 --> 01:53:42.359
family health issues and you know financial issues

01:53:42.359 --> 01:53:44.279
and this has just been one of those shit storms

01:53:44.279 --> 01:53:46.460
but when people have reached out and said hey

01:53:46.460 --> 01:53:48.300
you seem like you're not doing so well i'm like

01:53:48.300 --> 01:53:51.560
no you're right i'm not because that's what you

01:53:51.560 --> 01:53:53.619
can do like before it all builds up to where

01:53:53.619 --> 01:53:55.340
you're now at crisis you can be like no it's

01:53:55.340 --> 01:53:57.479
been a really shit couple of weeks i'll be honest

01:53:57.479 --> 01:54:00.539
it's this and this and this and you know on one

01:54:00.539 --> 01:54:02.399
hand i'm really fucking angry about a bunch of

01:54:02.399 --> 01:54:04.560
stuff on the other hand i'm you know somewhat

01:54:04.560 --> 01:54:08.159
depressed but because i've been in and out of

01:54:08.159 --> 01:54:10.539
these dark places before you know and it's not

01:54:10.539 --> 01:54:12.819
the darkest of places but you know navigated

01:54:12.819 --> 01:54:15.119
it it's like but i know you know i'm leaning

01:54:15.119 --> 01:54:17.220
into the things that i know that work and i know

01:54:17.789 --> 01:54:19.930
that it's going to get better and literally two

01:54:19.930 --> 01:54:22.710
days ago i woke up i was like oh sweet i feel

01:54:22.710 --> 01:54:25.890
better you know now is it again going to be there's

01:54:25.890 --> 01:54:27.770
a lot of work ahead of me to mitigate these things

01:54:27.770 --> 01:54:30.130
and hoping that some of the health issues will

01:54:30.130 --> 01:54:32.329
will be better for you know my family member

01:54:32.329 --> 01:54:36.210
but you know when you can identify it you can

01:54:36.210 --> 01:54:39.930
be vulnerable and honest at the beginning of

01:54:39.930 --> 01:54:42.470
a struggle so then you don't get that crushing

01:54:42.470 --> 01:54:44.590
weight and i think that's i literally observed

01:54:44.590 --> 01:54:46.949
this just you know two days ago That's really

01:54:46.949 --> 01:54:48.930
important. When you can look at someone and go,

01:54:49.029 --> 01:54:50.550
yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not doing well at all.

01:54:50.949 --> 01:54:53.289
I'm really, I'm really worried about this. You

01:54:53.289 --> 01:54:55.829
know, it's got me pretty fucking down. Everything's

01:54:55.829 --> 01:54:58.149
kind of feeling a bit gray at the moment. Then

01:54:58.149 --> 01:55:00.470
immediately you're offloading it before it really

01:55:00.470 --> 01:55:02.630
starts building up. And I think that's, that's

01:55:02.630 --> 01:55:04.890
a sign of growth, post -traumatic growth that

01:55:04.890 --> 01:55:09.289
you can be that honest that nothing is ever really

01:55:09.289 --> 01:55:11.489
allowed to pile up because right at the very

01:55:11.489 --> 01:55:13.489
beginning, you were like, yeah, this has been

01:55:13.489 --> 01:55:17.640
a shit week. Yeah. And kudos to you for, for

01:55:17.640 --> 01:55:19.260
admitting it. You know, I feel the same. Like

01:55:19.260 --> 01:55:20.680
I actually went to my wife the other day and

01:55:20.680 --> 01:55:23.420
I'm like, I'm going through it. And I never would

01:55:23.420 --> 01:55:25.619
have been able to do that, you know, a year and

01:55:25.619 --> 01:55:27.960
a half ago, even though we're closest could be.

01:55:28.020 --> 01:55:30.060
And we have great communication. I still wouldn't

01:55:30.060 --> 01:55:32.939
allow myself to be that vulnerable. And three

01:55:32.939 --> 01:55:34.880
friends over the past few days reached out. And

01:55:34.880 --> 01:55:37.180
I was honest with them when in fact in the past,

01:55:37.180 --> 01:55:38.579
we were like, I'm good, bro. How about you? And

01:55:38.579 --> 01:55:41.779
just right off to something else. But we can't

01:55:41.779 --> 01:55:43.520
do that. I mean, you can do anything you want,

01:55:43.600 --> 01:55:48.100
but if you do it, you're not processing, you

01:55:48.100 --> 01:55:50.359
know, what's going on. You're not being honest

01:55:50.359 --> 01:55:54.140
with yourself. You know, and I feel like I'm

01:55:54.140 --> 01:55:57.420
a hypocrite as well. You know, going on social

01:55:57.420 --> 01:56:00.140
media, I'm telling guys and girls how to kind

01:56:00.140 --> 01:56:01.800
of deal with their problems. And I'm not doing

01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:04.279
the same thing to myself or I'm being dishonest

01:56:04.279 --> 01:56:07.239
when my good friends are asking me. No, I mean,

01:56:07.260 --> 01:56:08.840
that's if they're good friends, that's what they're

01:56:08.840 --> 01:56:11.390
there for. And consequently, same thing when

01:56:11.390 --> 01:56:12.869
I ask them and they tell me they're not doing

01:56:12.869 --> 01:56:15.670
well. Let's get on a call or, you know, whatever

01:56:15.670 --> 01:56:18.569
the case may be and talk you through this. And

01:56:18.569 --> 01:56:21.630
it's just it's a human experience, man. It's

01:56:21.630 --> 01:56:25.609
I think one of the best dialogues ever heard

01:56:25.609 --> 01:56:28.189
speech wise was Sylvester Stallone and Rocky

01:56:28.189 --> 01:56:30.529
Balboa when he's talking to his son about nothing

01:56:30.529 --> 01:56:32.989
hitting harder than life and not being able to

01:56:32.989 --> 01:56:34.689
duck those punches. I don't care how good looking

01:56:34.689 --> 01:56:37.920
you are, how rich you are, how bad you are. how

01:56:37.920 --> 01:56:41.039
funny you are like no one is ducking life and

01:56:41.039 --> 01:56:43.680
life is traumatic at times it's a beautiful thing

01:56:43.680 --> 01:56:48.039
but it ebbs and flows man and when those dark

01:56:48.039 --> 01:56:51.340
times hit have a system in place to kind of get

01:56:51.340 --> 01:56:55.159
yourself out of them quicker um you know feel

01:56:55.159 --> 01:56:59.100
the feelings the only way uh out is through don't

01:56:59.100 --> 01:57:01.239
deflect them don't don't want substances you

01:57:01.239 --> 01:57:04.180
have to feel it but when you do you're able to

01:57:04.180 --> 01:57:10.039
heal it I think one of the areas that is so exciting

01:57:10.039 --> 01:57:12.779
that I've heard in this echo chamber that I'm

01:57:12.779 --> 01:57:15.859
in for nine years now, but I feel needs to be

01:57:15.859 --> 01:57:17.800
front and center in the mental health conversation,

01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:21.460
aside from the feeling of burdensome as far as

01:57:21.460 --> 01:57:24.180
a red flag. I've said this so many times on here

01:57:24.180 --> 01:57:27.399
and written about it, that if you truly believe

01:57:27.399 --> 01:57:29.260
that you're a burden to the people that you love.

01:57:29.770 --> 01:57:32.850
That is your fucking sign to ask for help because

01:57:32.850 --> 01:57:35.810
that's your mind slowly being twisted by that

01:57:35.810 --> 01:57:38.550
point. But from a hope point of view, rather

01:57:38.550 --> 01:57:40.810
than talking about stigma, because I would argue

01:57:40.810 --> 01:57:43.109
a stigma is like a 10 years ago conversation

01:57:43.109 --> 01:57:46.390
now, it's the hope of post -traumatic growth

01:57:46.390 --> 01:57:49.590
and hearing so many people that are on the other

01:57:49.590 --> 01:57:51.649
end of this, this crucible they've been through.

01:57:51.689 --> 01:57:54.270
And like you said, not done healing, but being

01:57:54.270 --> 01:57:56.989
through the healing journey for the majority

01:57:56.989 --> 01:57:59.619
of what they were struggling with. That, you

01:57:59.619 --> 01:58:03.460
know, in this case, Mike 2 .0 is a, you know,

01:58:03.460 --> 01:58:06.020
a healthier, happier, more resilient version

01:58:06.020 --> 01:58:09.340
of his former self before he went through. So

01:58:09.340 --> 01:58:11.920
talk to me about that for all the people that

01:58:11.920 --> 01:58:14.539
are scared to look in the mirror to begin this

01:58:14.539 --> 01:58:18.800
healing journey. What is exciting about the other

01:58:18.800 --> 01:58:21.319
side? Because I think that's it. That post -traumatic

01:58:21.319 --> 01:58:23.680
growth conversation should be what we're talking

01:58:23.680 --> 01:58:30.199
about now. Yeah, I mean, I think the number one

01:58:30.199 --> 01:58:32.060
thing is what do you see looking back at you

01:58:32.060 --> 01:58:34.619
when you look in that mirror? And sometimes it's

01:58:34.619 --> 01:58:37.539
tough to do so. I remember a few years ago, my

01:58:37.539 --> 01:58:41.100
buddy committed suicide and I was so sad, but

01:58:41.100 --> 01:58:43.079
I couldn't cry. And I remember getting out of

01:58:43.079 --> 01:58:44.359
the shower and looking in the mirror. I'm like,

01:58:44.420 --> 01:58:46.899
man, you are broken. Like one of your best friends

01:58:46.899 --> 01:58:52.380
committed suicide. You can't cry. So as far as,

01:58:52.399 --> 01:59:00.399
you know, now. I just have, I guess, a different

01:59:00.399 --> 01:59:03.899
perspective on life. And number one, I know there's

01:59:03.899 --> 01:59:06.000
a lot more going on in this life than we have

01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:09.979
any clue about. You know, I don't know. They

01:59:09.979 --> 01:59:12.859
talk about dimensions and, you know, I mean,

01:59:12.859 --> 01:59:16.239
there's so many theories that people believe

01:59:16.239 --> 01:59:19.939
in, but I truly believe that there is so much

01:59:19.939 --> 01:59:22.659
more. I believe that there is no coincidence.

01:59:22.779 --> 01:59:25.899
Everything happens for a reason. I believe that

01:59:25.899 --> 01:59:29.760
you're put through things to learn lessons. I

01:59:29.760 --> 01:59:32.340
believe that you cannot ever make yourself a

01:59:32.340 --> 01:59:35.439
victim. Never, ever. That's the worst thing you

01:59:35.439 --> 01:59:37.819
could possibly do. When you're going through

01:59:37.819 --> 01:59:39.939
it, look for the lessons that can be learned.

01:59:40.079 --> 01:59:41.319
And maybe you're not going to see them for a

01:59:41.319 --> 01:59:44.560
long time. When that poor two -year -old was

01:59:44.560 --> 01:59:46.880
drowning in a pool, I had no idea why I was there.

01:59:47.239 --> 01:59:50.699
But I now know that I was put in that situation

01:59:50.699 --> 01:59:53.300
for a reason because of what I'm doing now. I

01:59:53.300 --> 01:59:55.020
actually reestablished contact with her family,

01:59:55.060 --> 01:59:59.039
wrote a four -page letter about last year after

01:59:59.039 --> 02:00:02.659
I got on the ayahuasca journey. And because they

02:00:02.659 --> 02:00:05.159
were, her name is Dana Sikorsky. She survived

02:00:05.159 --> 02:00:08.579
and she was brought home. She was supposed to

02:00:08.579 --> 02:00:11.359
be bedridden her whole life. She suffered a hypoxic

02:00:11.359 --> 02:00:13.659
brain injury. Doctors were not expecting much.

02:00:14.720 --> 02:00:16.880
Actually, they expected her to pass away before

02:00:16.880 --> 02:00:19.600
she had three. And she has far surpassed what

02:00:19.600 --> 02:00:23.430
anyone thought. Her family was so gracious with

02:00:23.430 --> 02:00:29.289
the fire department and they were so glad, overwhelmed

02:00:29.289 --> 02:00:32.350
with having Dana back at the house that they

02:00:32.350 --> 02:00:34.050
didn't care, you know, that she was suffering

02:00:34.050 --> 02:00:37.970
from, you know, the condition that she was kind

02:00:37.970 --> 02:00:41.170
of in at the time. And they kept inviting me

02:00:41.170 --> 02:00:46.029
to visit through the fire chief. And I had the

02:00:46.029 --> 02:00:47.550
weirdest mix of dynamics, man. I was feeling

02:00:47.550 --> 02:00:51.779
guilty for saving her because... I was like,

02:00:51.779 --> 02:00:54.699
if she was already dead, why did we resuscitate

02:00:54.699 --> 02:00:56.420
her if she's only going to be in this condition?

02:00:56.659 --> 02:00:58.939
Then I felt guilty for having that feeling, that

02:00:58.939 --> 02:01:01.720
guilt. So things just kind of multiplied. And

02:01:01.720 --> 02:01:04.020
I never visited. Ended up going in there one

02:01:04.020 --> 02:01:07.100
time. And I saw her. She wasn't really tracking

02:01:07.100 --> 02:01:09.439
me when I went in. She couldn't really make eye

02:01:09.439 --> 02:01:11.920
contact. And I started well enough with tears.

02:01:12.420 --> 02:01:14.380
And it was radio traffic on the radio. It wasn't

02:01:14.380 --> 02:01:17.079
even a call. But I pretended it was. It was like

02:01:17.079 --> 02:01:18.840
220 copy. I'm like, guys, I got to go. And I

02:01:18.840 --> 02:01:21.659
split. Never came back again. And, you know,

02:01:21.659 --> 02:01:23.760
I apologize. I told him exactly everything I

02:01:23.760 --> 02:01:26.699
had gone through. And I said, I now know that

02:01:26.699 --> 02:01:28.020
I was supposed to be your house. It was supposed

02:01:28.020 --> 02:01:30.859
to be me because of my purpose. Now, the rest

02:01:30.859 --> 02:01:33.260
of my life, your daughter is going to be saving

02:01:33.260 --> 02:01:35.960
people's lives for me. I'm like, she and I were

02:01:35.960 --> 02:01:38.539
both supposed to be there. And I said, that is

02:01:38.539 --> 02:01:41.439
one of our purposes in life. So, you know, they

02:01:41.439 --> 02:01:48.279
were overwhelmed. And, you know, now it's I just

02:01:48.279 --> 02:01:52.270
look for. the good in everything when I used

02:01:52.270 --> 02:01:54.229
to be the total opposite. You know, I used to

02:01:54.229 --> 02:01:59.250
be the pessimist. Everything was shady. Now everything

02:01:59.250 --> 02:02:02.569
is good. And, you know, if it happens to turn

02:02:02.569 --> 02:02:05.609
out not that way, oh, well. You know, I just

02:02:05.609 --> 02:02:11.270
look for the positive. I try to, you know, I

02:02:11.270 --> 02:02:13.750
change the way I handle relationships. You know,

02:02:13.789 --> 02:02:16.390
I tell my buddies I love them. I don't know.

02:02:16.390 --> 02:02:18.229
I just appreciate life more, I guess, is the

02:02:18.229 --> 02:02:20.649
biggest thing. You know, sometimes we go through

02:02:20.649 --> 02:02:24.470
and we have our trials and tribulations, but

02:02:24.470 --> 02:02:26.850
you don't take stock in what you actually have.

02:02:27.069 --> 02:02:28.510
You're always thinking about what you don't have,

02:02:28.529 --> 02:02:30.569
what you didn't do, what you failed at, when

02:02:30.569 --> 02:02:32.270
in fact you need to take time and think about

02:02:32.270 --> 02:02:34.369
everything you succeeded at doing. The fact that

02:02:34.369 --> 02:02:36.949
you woke up today, the fact that you woke up

02:02:36.949 --> 02:02:39.170
today feeling healthy, you know, look at everything

02:02:39.170 --> 02:02:41.909
you have, everything that allows you to contribute

02:02:41.909 --> 02:02:46.170
to society, to help others. I mean, I can go

02:02:46.170 --> 02:02:48.819
on and on, but life is beautiful. And if you're

02:02:48.819 --> 02:02:50.659
not feeling that way, I promise you that you

02:02:50.659 --> 02:02:53.279
can once again. You just have to raise your hand

02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:56.520
and ask for that hope. And it's there. Absolutely.

02:02:56.880 --> 02:02:59.739
Yeah, it's impossible to be in a state of gratitude

02:02:59.739 --> 02:03:02.800
and also depressed or anxious. But, I mean, it's

02:03:02.800 --> 02:03:04.460
getting to there again, you know, because it

02:03:04.460 --> 02:03:07.260
is. I mean, it is a beautiful life. And not to

02:03:07.260 --> 02:03:09.000
open that rabbit hole again, but when people

02:03:09.000 --> 02:03:11.119
get drawn into politics and all these other things,

02:03:11.199 --> 02:03:14.859
you know, they... phrase America as the people

02:03:14.859 --> 02:03:16.800
in the blue ties or the red ties that they're

02:03:16.800 --> 02:03:19.060
missing the point. Like this experience that

02:03:19.060 --> 02:03:21.279
we have and the nature that's outside your window.

02:03:21.380 --> 02:03:23.439
I mean, that's, that's what this is about. And

02:03:23.439 --> 02:03:25.819
there is so much to be grateful for. You open

02:03:25.819 --> 02:03:28.260
your eyes in the morning. That's a win. How many

02:03:28.260 --> 02:03:30.560
thousands of thousands of people don't get to

02:03:30.560 --> 02:03:34.140
do that. So I couldn't agree more. Oh yeah. Cause

02:03:34.140 --> 02:03:35.520
I put a story up yesterday. It was a guy with

02:03:35.520 --> 02:03:37.600
no legs. His arms weren't really functioning

02:03:37.600 --> 02:03:39.520
and it was shown, I guess his friend picking

02:03:39.520 --> 02:03:40.899
him off on the ground, putting him in the wheelchair.

02:03:41.140 --> 02:03:43.340
And actually I started crying. And I'm like,

02:03:43.479 --> 02:03:47.560
you're kind of going through it right now because

02:03:47.560 --> 02:03:50.880
of a certain thing that I did succeed and I don't

02:03:50.880 --> 02:03:54.100
have. And this poor guy, this is his situation

02:03:54.100 --> 02:03:57.979
24 -7. And, you know, you're always told not

02:03:57.979 --> 02:04:00.359
to compare yourselves. And I don't think comparing

02:04:00.359 --> 02:04:02.319
yourselves to maybe people who are above you

02:04:02.319 --> 02:04:04.739
is necessarily healthy, what they have and what

02:04:04.739 --> 02:04:07.420
you don't have. But I think it benefits you periodically

02:04:07.420 --> 02:04:10.600
to kind of look at people who are suffering.

02:04:11.239 --> 02:04:13.960
and who are going through tough lives and then

02:04:13.960 --> 02:04:15.880
when you contrast it with yours and how good

02:04:15.880 --> 02:04:18.359
you actually have it sometimes it snaps you out

02:04:18.359 --> 02:04:20.920
of it and lets you really appreciate it we all

02:04:20.920 --> 02:04:22.739
go through bad first of all if you don't go through

02:04:22.739 --> 02:04:23.920
bad how are you going to appreciate the good

02:04:23.920 --> 02:04:27.720
you know it's never going to happen um do you

02:04:27.720 --> 02:04:30.600
just be a spoiled petulant child your entire

02:04:30.600 --> 02:04:34.859
life um You know, it's a yin and yang. You have

02:04:34.859 --> 02:04:37.640
to have good and bad. And you appreciate the,

02:04:37.699 --> 02:04:39.079
first of all, it was a lot more good than bad,

02:04:39.119 --> 02:04:42.760
I promise. And you appreciate it a lot more when

02:04:42.760 --> 02:04:45.939
you kind of go through that bad. It's a necessary

02:04:45.939 --> 02:04:48.100
evil. Absolutely. Not even evil. It's necessary.

02:04:48.560 --> 02:04:52.819
Yin and yang. Yeah. I don't know how many cases

02:04:52.819 --> 02:04:54.640
you have to say that for 57 years to say it right.

02:04:55.510 --> 02:04:57.810
All right. Well, for people listening, you know,

02:04:57.829 --> 02:04:59.729
I'm sure they've been incredibly moved by this

02:04:59.729 --> 02:05:01.409
conversation. I'm sure they'd love to listen

02:05:01.409 --> 02:05:03.789
to your podcast, you know, follow you. Where

02:05:03.789 --> 02:05:06.130
are the best places to find all things Mike online?

02:05:07.670 --> 02:05:10.869
Yeah. So my Instagram is the resilient warrior,

02:05:11.050 --> 02:05:14.010
five, seven, seven, eight. And if you want to

02:05:14.010 --> 02:05:16.329
catch the podcast, that is the resilient warrior

02:05:16.329 --> 02:05:20.270
nation. on YouTube and we're about to put it

02:05:20.270 --> 02:05:22.630
on all the audio platform, audio only platforms.

02:05:22.909 --> 02:05:24.430
I don't know why I don't have it on there. I

02:05:24.430 --> 02:05:25.890
don't realize how many people listen to audio

02:05:25.890 --> 02:05:29.250
only podcasts. I mean, I have to visually see

02:05:29.250 --> 02:05:31.949
it. Brilliant mate. Well, I want to thank you

02:05:31.949 --> 02:05:34.409
so much for, I mean, not only just the conversations

02:05:34.409 --> 02:05:37.289
that we've had, but I always say this when people

02:05:37.289 --> 02:05:39.569
are vulnerable on here, when they do bear their

02:05:39.569 --> 02:05:41.689
soul and, you know, sometimes revisiting some

02:05:41.689 --> 02:05:44.050
of these calls, you know, it, it pulls the scab

02:05:44.050 --> 02:05:47.189
off the wound a little bit, but I know. how deeply

02:05:47.189 --> 02:05:48.970
that's going to resonate and how many people

02:05:48.970 --> 02:05:51.069
it's going to help. So I want to thank you so

02:05:51.069 --> 02:05:53.729
much for being so generous with your time and

02:05:53.729 --> 02:05:55.510
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

02:05:56.949 --> 02:05:59.590
Absolutely. It's my pleasure. And again, my honor

02:05:59.590 --> 02:06:01.750
being on. Love being here. Love what you're doing.

02:06:01.810 --> 02:06:03.930
Keep doing what you're doing. I can't imagine

02:06:03.930 --> 02:06:05.909
how many lives you've affected. A thousand guests.

02:06:06.869 --> 02:06:10.510
It's incredible. So keep doing what you're doing.

02:06:10.550 --> 02:06:12.090
You're on a mission, man. Noble.