Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show
law enforcement veteran and the man behind the
resilient warrior, Mike Morgan. Now, in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics from
Mike's journey into the world of law enforcement,
some notable calls, working with SWAT, his own
powerful mental health story, how ayahuasca helped
him break through some of his own challenges,
how he's using his journey to help other first
responders, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment. Go to
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Mike Morgan. Enjoy. Well, Mike, I want
to start by saying thank you so much for taking
the time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Well, I want to thank you very
much for having me. It is an honor and a pleasure.
So I know that we're not too far from each other.
Where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? I am in Lake Worth, Florida. So for
those of you who are into equestrians, it's just
south of Wellington, which is the winter equestrian
capital of the world, and just about 45 minutes
north of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. See, Ocala
calls itself the horse capital of the world.
So have they ever had like a gang war to figure
out who's the ultimate horse capital, even though
that's excluding all the other countries that
probably have more horses? Exactly. I think it'd
be a great show. Let's see if we can pitch it.
A lot of money of all places. Yeah, someone would
pick it up. I know they would. All right. No
doubt. I mean, after all, they were... They were
televising cornhole during COVID. So after that,
I realized that the bar was so low that any of
us could be on television. Bro, there's crazy
shows on ESPN. There's like 19 ESPN channels.
But my wife and I will watch them and record
these insane subjects, sports that they come
up with these days. And I have to send them my
stepsons. Pillow fighting. The one the other
day was bicycle polo in New York City. And they're
televised, which blows me away. One I saw recently,
which was actually quite entertaining, but it
was basically dog jumping. So they were on a
platform. They jumped into the water, and it
was how far can they jump? And I think between
that and televising children playing baseball,
those are the two that really blow my mind. I
love the Little League World Series, if that's
what you're referring to. So I am guilty watching
that every year, and I love watching a dog jump.
Anything with dogs, I'm a dog guy. All right.
Well, very first question then. Let's start at
the beginning of your timeline. Tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. Sure. So I was born in North Belmore,
New York, which is a suburb of New York. It's,
excuse me, the western portion of Nassau County.
Nassau is broken up into Nassau and Suffolk counties.
And I am on the, or was on the South Shore. So
it was a middle income area. lower to middle
income where I was. I was on the lower income
side of the tracks. My father was a fireman for
the FDNY. And my mom was a school secretary for
the local school district, elementary school
district. And I have a younger sibling, sister,
two years younger than myself. So when you reflect
back now, having worn the law enforcement uniform
for your whole career, what were the pros and
what were the cons of having a firefighter as
a dad? Well, number one, my father did not want
my sister and I to become civil servants. He
vowed that she and I would never take a civil
servant test. He wanted us to both have white
collar jobs. She's a attorney. I graduated college
with an accounting degree. So it seemed like
his mission was successful. But on the first
day of commuting into Manhattan for my new accounting
job, I found myself being super flat, just no
emotion whatsoever. Got introduced to a bunch
of associates and bosses. And about 11 a .m.
was given a task. Shortly thereafter, I found
myself waking up. My head was in my hand. Fell
asleep at my cubicle. Went over, spoke to a guy
that seemed really cool. We had hit it off. I
said, you like this stuff, bro? He's like, F
no, I hate it. I said, there is no way I'm singing
in a cubicle for the next 30, 35 years of my
life, making no difference to anyone or anything.
And before lunch, decided that that career was
out for me. um my dad was not happy about that
decision um he definitely put a tried to influence
me greatly on what my career should be uh we
butted heads quite a bit and it was not a great
relationship to be honest with you never was
what was it about his experience in uniform you
think that that deterred him from wanting his
children to do the same thing um he never really
got into specifics other than the monetary um
He always wanted his kids to do better than he
did. He never discussed his job with me. So,
you know, obviously there's trauma heaped upon
first responders. That was never, you know, a
portion of his argument towards me that I should
never become that. And I never had any interest
in becoming a fireman. Frankly, I never felt
the pull of becoming a first responder until...
that day that I, my first day at that job. And
then I really started going deep introspectively
thinking about what I would like to do for a
career. You, I know we're going to talk about
obviously your own mental health journey and
again, the post -traumatic growth, which is so
important. But I think what's interesting is
a lot of us, when we are at this point now at
this age, you have the side of the career, you
know, found some tools that are working as far
as, you know, moving through some of the dark
element. I just lost you there. That was weird.
My screen just timed out. Let me just write that
down. It just threw me for a second. Everything
went black. Working through our own challenges
is then the ability to look back and reflect
on our early life. A, the kind of generational
trauma. That's something I talk about a lot these
days. And then B, understanding that a lot of
us drawn to. the uniform professions, you know,
there's a lot of us that have had things happen
when we were younger that contributed to struggles
when we were older. So when you reflect back
now with this veteran lens, what were some of
the more challenging elements of your childhood?
It's funny. I never, I thought as. probably most
of us do, that everything I went through is normal.
And I never really reflected back. Periodically,
you know, my father and I, as I said, have never
had a good relationship. So throughout, there's
always been tension. And it was my normality.
But when I started my healing journey, I really
went back and I started looking very deeply at
my childhood and what made me me, what made my
behaviors that I display, you know, use those
behaviors, you know, just. my thought process
i really wanted to see like why i do certain
things and i never realized how absolutely critical
my father was growing up i mean nothing could
be done right um he was very mechanical and i
remember when i was young i wanted to learn how
to fix things but every time i went to help him
it was like screaming curses when you made one
little mistake um you know just belittling and
you know the language it's funny you know he
definitely used um I don't know if I want to
say physical violence, but he didn't spare the
rod. And that never really bothered me. Even
been looking back now, like I would take a beating
rather than the mental abuse that was kind of
heaped on me. You know, you're worthless, you're
stupid. You know, what the F is wrong with you?
It's insane when I think about it and him speaking
to a young child like that. So I learned to callous
up to not feel the pain. And that was a huge
thing that I've taken throughout my life. And
in some respects, when I became a first responder,
it was the greatest thing in the world because
you can't absorb all this pain. So I didn't even
have to learn how to reflect it or deflect it.
It was I was already calloused up. And that was
the way that I wasn't able. You know, I just
didn't absorb it. I was already trained, which
is not something to brag about. You know, when
I look back now, there were so many things that
I was so emotionally. shut down about or just
unemotionally emotionally unintelligent um you
know i i've gone through this journey over the
past year and a half and i've changed so many
things about myself and i've you know hopefully
kind of risen above what i was and changed myself
as a man frankly but um it just and i think i
would give my father more credit if he tried
to be a hard man as i was a kid you know disciplined
he wanted to you know have a disciplined child
and, you know, several things he wanted to achieve
that he wanted to achieve through me or whatever.
But it never stopped into adulthood. You know,
when you become more like contemporary, so to
speak, you become more, you know, a lot of times
you'll develop more of a friendship. Like it
was never there till the day he died, that criticism
never ended. And he was just, I never felt he
was there to help me. And, you know, unfortunately
that's traumatic and I never dealt with it. And
I didn't realize how many of us in the first
responder military careers have suffered that,
which a lot of times causes us to go into these
professions that we choose. It's interesting
because I think a lot of us, you know, when you
actually look back, you're constantly chasing
validation. And it's not obviously the reason
that you're wearing it. This is subconscious,
you know, contributing factor. But whether it's
us, you know, and we reach the pinnacles as far
as, you know. in my job, firefighter and paramedic
and special operations and ranks, if that's something
that you've chased, or in your profession, gang
unit and SWAT and all these areas. And then they
reflect back, but it was never enough. And you
ask people that are in the sporting world, they're
world champion, but it wasn't enough. The millionaires
that made all that money, it wasn't enough. And
I think that validation is so important, just
to be enough through a parent's eyes. Absolutely.
I agree 100%. And I have a funny, ironic story,
not comedic. I went into the fire. My father
brought me into the firehouse one day. I was
probably, you know, I'm going to guess 14, 15,
mid -teens. And he introduced me to a firefighter
I'd never met. And he tells me, your father talks
about you in sports all the time. I was pretty
good in all my sports that I played. And I answered
him with, me? Talks about me? And he didn't even
catch on. And he's like, yeah, he talks about
you all the time. And I could never reconcile
that. Like, what do you mean he talks about you?
He never talks about me. And when he does talk
about me, I remember him. I had nine assists
one game and the whole ride home was him screaming
at me why I didn't score a goal. That's, you
know, how critical he was. And I finally realized
I'm talking to my wife about a year and a half
ago. And I kind of bring up that situation. And
she said, you know why he was doing that? And
I said, no. She's like, you know, he's definitely
a narcissist, but that's his way. of making himself
look better he's talking about you and bragging
about the things that you're accomplishing he'll
never tell you he's proud to give you credit
for doing so but he's using these feats to talk
to others to kind of you know make himself look
better and i just looked at her and i said man
i never thought about that you were 100 correct
now it makes sense well have you kind of looked
into like his upbringing do you know if he was
exposed to similar behavior in his family yeah
his parents didn't have a good relationship they
were cold They were cold towards themselves.
They were cold towards others. His mother apparently
pitted himself against my uncle a lot growing
up. I'm not sure exactly why she was doing that.
I think she was trying to get more attention
from my father, you know, whatever her logic
was. But they were always pitted against each
other. It's funny, growing up, my uncle was a
great guy, and we'd always go to the house, and
my father's demeanor would change immediately
when he came in contact with his brother. And
it would just be one -word answers, cold, dismissive,
and I could never understand it. I'm like, I
don't understand why you talk to Uncle Jerry
like that. And he'd be like, he's an asshole.
And I'm like, no, he's not. I don't understand
it. And, you know, finally, when I started getting
older, I started asking a few more questions
to my cousins and they kind of knew the situation
a little bit better. And they told me what was
going on. I said, ah, now it makes a little more
sense. But it was just a very, very cold guy.
And he had no awareness. You know, sometimes,
well, a lot of healthy people will know when
they're speaking to someone and maybe something
they said turned them off. You just notice immediately,
like you just said something and bam. they had
that minor reaction and maybe you'll come back
and address it. Or maybe you'll just kind of
change going forward, whatever narrative you
were speaking about, but you know, he, I could
see him constantly offending people and he just
never picked up on it or just didn't care enough
to change, you know, his thought process. This
is what I think is so exciting is our generation.
I've said this a few times recently. Our generation
of first responders will stay with our professions
for the moment. We really are standing on the
shoulders of giants, all the pioneers in law
enforcement and paramedicine and firefighting,
the industries that created the SCBAs and the
bunker gear and the forceful entry tools in your
world, obviously the tactical gear. That's whose
shoulders we're standing on. And I think where
we have the ability to make a massive difference
is now the human in the uniform. That was completely
disregarded over this last few decades. But when
we really actually acknowledge the domino effect
of all these generations and all these households.
As you hear this phrase thrown around all the
time, well, the problem is, you know, these homes
are all fractured these days and it's single
parents. It's like, yeah, but no one's saying,
well, why? Why is that? No one dreamed once,
you know, of getting married and then becoming
divorced and being a single parent or becoming
an addict or, you know, taking their own life
or living under a bridge. No one dreamed of that.
So what is going on? And I think that now we
have a generation that are doing the work that
is saying, I'm not going to let that domino fall
on my child. And I think that is such a beautiful
thing because it takes courage. It really takes
courage to say, I'm going to work on me and I'm
not going to pass what I felt when I was younger
through my upbringing onto my children. So I
think this is what makes these conversations
so powerful because usually, unless it's an anomaly,
and even then, who knows what happened behind
closed doors, usually you see the same pattern
of behavior with parent, grandparent, great -grandparent.
So these conversations are so much more than
just, you know, talking about suicide. If we
can unpack generational trauma, you're going
to impact so many areas from addiction to obesity
and everything else. Yeah, 100 percent. You know,
we're evolving as a people in a society as time
goes on and we're able to see, you know, stigmas
are getting released. We're realizing now that.
showing emotion is not weakness i mean there
are so many things that have changed in the last
generation but it's funny you said that i made
a post the other day because i don't want to
uh label who it is but let's just say there's
someone close to me and their spouse had uh we
were texting about something and they had mentioned
that their spouse curses at the children quite
a bit and it surprised me i had no idea and uh
i thought it was a joke at first so i just confirmed
and this person said yes I don't even want to
say he or she. And I said, that's not good. And
I asked a few more questions and I knew, I know
the person's father and the father was definitely
hard, but wasn't this hard on the child. And
so I made a post about speaking the way you speak
to your children. And, you know, essentially
it was, you tell your kid to shut the fuck up
and tell them that they're fucking worthless
and they're fucking stupid. They're never going
to forget that. So let me tell you now, when
you do that for the entirety of their life, I'm
57 years old and I can tell you pretty much every
time my father has said things like that. And
I remember hating him when I was young, sitting
there telling myself, I hate him. That is the
way your children are going to feel. It's generational
trauma. It's up to you to break that curse. I
don't understand. Maybe you were raised like
that. Doesn't give me an excuse. You know, I
was raised tough. Doesn't give me an excuse to
go around treating people like garbage. It is
incumbent upon us, if there is a generational
trauma, we're the ones that are going to have
to be the ones to stop it. I can't speak today.
But it's incumbent upon us, 100%. You can't put
it on someone else. Look in the mirror and see
what you're doing and how you're treating people.
Sometimes that mirror is the hardest thing to
look into because what's staring back at you
is not pretty. And I've done it myself, and it
hasn't been. I think what's interesting is you
find yourself at a crossroads. You can either
do the exact same thing that your parents did,
or you can say, well, I'm going to do the exact
opposite because I know how it made me feel.
And I think it's that turn that sends a lot of
us into uniform. I want to be there on someone's
worst day. I truly do. Whether I'm at work, whether
I'm off work, if someone's going to have a crisis,
I want to be one of the people there to help,
which is such a beautiful calling. It really
is. That mirrors how we should be in all these
other areas too. If you know how it felt to be
chastised, and it's kind of the same thing. My
grades were never good enough. My dad actually
was never. I was a national martial arts champion.
He never saw me fight once my whole childhood.
And there were other areas too, but what it ended
up doing, and this was completely subconsciously,
but I remember at 18 years old. watching fathers
that when I was lifeguarding that took their
kids to the pool and watching them, you know,
at the top of the slide, just watching them with,
you know, sitting them on their lap and going
down the slide. And I just, even then I was like,
I want to be a good dad one day. I'm not saying
my dad wasn't a good dad, but there were areas
that definitely I wasn't going to copy the same
behavior, but this is the superpower that we
have. But you've got to identify. I always say
it's reasons, not excuses. You're not then going
to play a victim because you had a certain childhood.
It's not about that. But how can you grow from
it until you actually look at it and acknowledge
it and say, yeah, this was bad. And I was a victim
in this particular situation. I was a child being
berated physically or mentally or whatever it
was. I was a victim. You allow yourself to feel
that. You give yourself an excuse to get rid
of the guilt and the shame, and that's where
the healing begins. Yeah, and that's what I've
tried to do over the past year and a half because
I never realized that, to be honest with you.
And it's funny, you mentioned before about being
in situations where you can help others. I remember,
and I hated doing it, but... delivering death
notifications or going to people's houses when
they are I remember one time we had to deliver
a death notification about a 20 year old who
was on spring break to a family and I always
remember leaving there kind of thanking God like
he sent me to do it because I knew I was the
absolute most compassionate guy in the world
like I don't know again I'm 235 tatted up shaved
head but I always treated people Exactly the
way I want my family treated in that exact situation.
And trust me, it was heartbreaking stuff a lot
of the times. And I also question myself as to
why I couldn't be that compassionate all the
time. Because I wasn't. I was a hardened man,
to be honest with you. And I didn't like that
about myself. I didn't realize how much so, I
guess, until right before I started this healing
journey or maybe into this healing journey. And
I didn't realize how much I didn't feel, how
much I tried not to feel. I do now, you know,
we're going to talk about the whole process,
but it's a beautiful thing to feel. But when
you start to feel, it's going to bring up a lot
of other things too and get ready for that pain
because it's coming, man. You don't just become
this healed individual and everything is put
in the rear view mirror. Like you have to go
through, you have to heal. Like you said, you
have to give yourself grace and you have to love
yourself first before you can love anyone else
in a healthy manner. Absolutely. Well, kind of
going back to the early life for a moment then,
you mentioned about playing sports. What sports
were you playing through the school years? I
played basketball. My big ones were baseball
and hockey. Hockey by far was my biggest I played
through college. I actually played one year,
John Cooper, the coach of Tampa Bay Lightning,
and I were teammates at Hofstra University. So
he's a good guy, good hockey player too. But
for the most part, hockey was my big sport. When
you reflect back now, what did you take away
from those sports that you found as a tool for
success in uniform? I guess, number one, the
team camaraderie aspect. I always loved being
part of a team. I always loved working hard.
It's funny. I loved every practice of every sport
I've ever played. Some people hate it. I loved
it. And I think the biggest thing that I loved
about policing was that team aspect. I was talking
to someone about it yesterday, and they asked
what I miss most. My camaraderie, 100%, without
a doubt. I don't know if you feel the same. Yeah,
no, no, it's true. But again, it's funny because
you have this sense when you're in. that you're
part of this tribe and then you transition out
and you actually realize okay within that tribe
there were the people who truly were friends
and there was everyone else you got on well with
or maybe not so well with you know but you work
side by side and you fought fires and did all
the things but um but yeah but what i realized
is that camaraderie can absolutely survive outside
of uniform too but you've really got to understand
who are the true friends and then who is the
rest of the tribe Yeah, 100%. Because that phone
stops ringing rather quickly, out of sight, out
of mind. And, you know, it's only the guys that
you are truly. And listen, a lot of us complain
about other guys. No, no one calls. Well, do
you call? Do you call? You know, was I calling?
You know what, when I was looking in the mirror?
No, I wasn't calling myself. So how am I complaining
about these guys not keeping up with me? We do
that a lot, unfortunately. It's very easy to
isolate. You know, we go through all this trauma
and stress at work. And a lot of times we just
kind of want to be by ourselves and, you know,
think we're sit with our own thoughts and we
don't want to answer to anyone and you know frankly
when you're going through it your guys who are
close to you are going to see it so sometimes
you you tend to kind of keep away from them because
you don't want to get asked these questions man
what's up are you bro how you doing you know
you're obviously kind of struggling talk to me
a lot of times you don't want to do that we think
it's weakness and um it's it's a vicious cycle
absolutely Well, before we get into the actual
law enforcement journey, what was it that drove
you into accounting in the first place? That's
a good question. My cousin and my uncle were
both CPAs. My uncle had a flourishing business.
He did very well. They lived in Connecticut,
had a beautiful house. My father was always referencing
Uncle Joe. Look at the way they live. You could
live the same way. Go that accounting route.
When you're young, you don't really know yourself.
So how many kids do you know that really knew
what they wanted to do for the rest of their
lives? You go into what you think you're going
to like. I thought accounting would be good.
It wasn't something that got me excited by any
stretch of the imagination, but I enjoyed it
in college. And once it came to applying it,
excuse me, it was not for me. I don't know how
to accomplish them. I don't know how to do it.
It sounds like there was some admiration by your
dad for his brother if he's literally trying
to usher you into the same career and looking
at some of the things that he's got as successful.
And that seems to mirror exactly what you were
experiencing with your dad, talking highly about
you when you weren't there and then talking differently
when you were there. Yeah, this was actually
his brother -in -law. This is my mom's brother.
So he definitely put him on a pedestal. And I
rightly so. I mean, he was a great guy. He was
a great dad. He did. He was a very successful
businessman. But it was funny because I would
watch my dad interact with different people and
he acted differently with different people. And
those whom he was very intelligent guy, but those
whom he considered maybe his level and above.
I don't want to say he. acted with reverence
but he definitely give them gave them a lot more
respect um definitely didn't like ply on he was
very he had a very strong personality and with
people that he respected he didn't like ply on
his beliefs he he was a little more reserved
and uh you just kind of watch him and i thought
he was hypocrite you know i guess sometimes we
all tend to change a little bit in in our relationships
and interactions with different people but You
know, I just I hated the fact that he'd be screaming
at us one second and all of a sudden Uncle Joe
and Aunt Janet would be there away getting to
their house. And it was Mr. Nice Nice. Like,
oh, why don't you show them who you are? Come
on. You know, you have this fake act for everyone
else. Let them see who you are. Because when
I had very frank discussions with my cousins
after my dad's death in 2020. A lot of them were
surprised because it was nothing I ever spoke
about. I mean, it was embarrassing, frankly,
the way he spoke to me and the things he, some
of the things he did to me. And then when I kind
of opened up to them, they had no idea, you know,
it was, it was nuts. I think they almost, I don't
want to say they thought that was lying, but
I don't think they would believe me at first.
And then as more things were happening and examples
got brought up or, you know, maybe my mom acknowledged
something, they realized that I was telling the
absolute truth. Well, you mentioned about being
in an accounting cubicle asleep, going to someone
that you thought was going to tell you the secret
of the excitement of accounting, and obviously
that didn't happen. So walk me through from that
moment through the journey that took you through
the front door of law enforcement. Yeah, so literally
that day I made that decision I was not going
to be doing this and started thinking about what
I wanted to do. Simultaneously, I had been training
with a guy doing martial arts for about three
years at that point. I became pretty proficient
at extreme violence, if you will. It's funny,
I almost quit so many times. And when he first
taught me, it was just this guy in his garage.
He was a year younger than me. And we all...
grow up hearing this thing about black belts
and you think these guys are the baddest and
you know karate kid was this and that and then
you realize how unrealistic a lot of these fighting
systems are and he told me he's like forget everything
you ever heard he's like i am going to teach
you how to be a proficient fighter and he's like
you're going to want to quit every day that i
train you he goes uh that's fine if you do you'll
be like most other guys if you don't i promise
you will change your life And I never quit. I
mean, I used to get my ass kicked. It was constructive.
I don't want to say beatings. It was constructive
training. But at one point, my cousin, myself
and a friend of ours were at a bar near Hofstra
University. And I heard screaming. I look over
and my buddy, who is the meekest guy in the world,
is getting yelled at by some guy and he wants
to fight him. So I walk over. I'm like, Jim,
what's up? He's like, I bumped into this guy.
I apologize. Offered a bottle of beer and he
won't stop. I'm like, what's up, brother? I'm
like, my buddy apologizes. He wants no trouble.
And he's like, F you, F him. I'll take both of
yous on. And I was so calm. I'm like, hey, brother.
I'm like, if we need to step outside, let's do
that. And he's like screaming. I'm like, nah,
I don't need to scream. I'm like, let's take
care of business and do what we got to do. And
he's like, fuck you. And he just like kind of
walks off. And I was so calm, so confident. I
called my buddy the next day and I didn't realize
I had been kind of transforming myself. i'm like
wow bro i felt so confident man there was no
fear whatsoever and uh i guess as i'm thinking
about what i wanted to do i started i don't know
it sounds weird to say but i almost thought of
myself as like this package where i could handle
anything that came my way in the street you know
i wanted to i hated bullies so in one aspect
i wanted to stop bullying um I wanted to protect
people who, you know, innocent people from evil.
You know, I wanted to take evil off the street.
I mean, there were a lot of reasons that I wanted
to get into law enforcement. And I just thought
that I was able to do this job now. I'd be able
to do it confidently. You know, I had common
sense. I wasn't fearful. The action was calling
me. I'm an adrenaline junkie as well. I never
realized any of the subconscious things that
were going on in my head about my father and
maybe some of the reasons why I was trying to.
into the profession because of that. But at the
time, I wanted to apply with the FBI. They were
on a federal hiring freeze. This is late 1991.
So the feds were on a hiring freeze, I believe,
until 97 or 98. I kind of put that on the back
burner, was trying to figure out other ways of
getting into law enforcement. I was introduced
to a buddy's brother who had just moved down
to Atlanta, and he was telling me how great the
city was. He had worked for Pan Am. They went
bankrupt. Delta picked up his whole welding shop
and then he moved down to Atlanta. He's like,
it's young. It's inexpensive. You'll love it.
They're building it up. I said, you know what?
I want to get out of New York anyway. Let me
get some police experience and then I'll apply
with the FBI when they start hiring again. So
lo and behold, applied in November, September
of 92. And by August of 93, I was hired by Atlanta
PD and then moved down there late August of 93.
So what was the conversation at the front door
as far as the physical side, the fitness standards,
combatives, et cetera, and then also the mental
health conversation back then? With? With Atlanta.
So when you first entered the front door, what
was the kind of landscape looking like back then?
As far as mental health, you and I just talked
more about mental health in the past 31 minutes
than I spoke to anyone in my entire Atlanta career
over 10 years. Literally, I'm not even joking
around. We had a psychologist came in one day
and he basically told us, one, the physiological
effects of extreme high stress situations on
your body. Then told us about how all of us are
going to have at least one divorce under our
belt. How many, the percentage of alcoholics
are going to develop, you know, all the stats.
Basically, I think he basically thought most
of us were racist for getting into the profession
to begin with. And it was not really a... A learning
experience, let's put it that way. That was the
extent of our mental health talk. There was no
peer support. There was no psych services at
the time, developed later on. But as we both
know, that was one of those situations where
if you sought it, you were pretty much, your
badge and gun were pulled. So guys never went
that route. It was just never spoken about. Suck
it up, buttercup. That was it. That's so funny
because if you put... a different profession
that same conversation that we get told about
police and fire and you were about to join an
accounting firm and they said oh you wait in
10 years you'll be on your third divorce and
have an alcohol problem you would say well fuck
this and you turn around and then leave straight
away and it's so sad that that's kind of like
joked about in our profession because it shows
an immense flaw in in the entire culture that
has to be changed and you know on my side i talk
about the woeful work week and both of our professions
now there's a recruitment crisis because on your
side if nothing else it's a complete lack of
support by the media and the public but you know
this isn't something to laugh about it's not
a badge of honor to to have addiction and broken
relationships going back to our conversation
earlier of keeping the home intact well if a
a selfless courageous profession is also going
to lead to you having a fractured relationship
with spouse and even children then that's a conversation
we need to be having today exactly and uh it's
funny not my uh again in a comedic sense but
um you know i got divorced i'm on my second marriage
this one's fantastic i love her greatly so i'll
be good but um First one had really not too much
to do with the policing aspect of it. But additionally,
I had a painkiller addiction in 2012 I was treated
for. I speak openly about that. The extent of
my drug use is smoking weed in high school. So
I was fervently anti -drug my whole life. But
I had been prescribing this medicine for years.
And I realized when I was having marriage troubles
that it kind of dulled the pain. So I just started
taking more and more. And the next thing I know,
I'm hooked on tramadol. And I'm having our first
night. rehab facility and i'm crying just kind
of looking around at the room and i'm like how
did i get here man i'm not supposed to be here
stop you know i always try to live an honorable
life and what am i doing so you know it's uh
you know i'm not blaming my career choice but
you know there's a lot of uh unresolved trauma
that we never deal with and it just gets heaped
upon more and more and more and finally we all
have a saturation point it's gonna blow You mentioned
about the martial arts training before. Firstly,
what style or type of training was that? So I
guess like the base was Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee,
but he believed that you should have very good,
you know, our boxing was, we did kickboxing,
so it was Muay Thai combined, but my buddy's
name was George Faraday. So he wanted boxing
skill. He wanted you to be like an elite level
of boxer. but there was so many other things
combined. Like, you know, if I was facing someone
instead of a punch, it could be a chop to the
throat. Be careful with that when you kill someone.
Chop to the nose, you know, break that. Just
a little Aikido to take someone down. I mean,
it was so many different things that they combined.
It was a Vietnam vet that kind of started the
system, and he just pieced these little things
together, and it works. I mean, I've squared
off eight times, and eight guys have been dealt
with without me getting hit in the face. It's
nothing. about how great I am. Just the system
was very effective and I was taught very well.
So what about again at the front door, as far
as the combative defensive tactics, excuse me,
defensive tactics back in the early nineties?
There weren't many. I mean, we have probably
like an eight hour block of defensive tactics
training at Atlanta. It wasn't like you got into
any type of jujitsu. A lot of it was gun retention.
I remember, and literally it was like, hold your
gun in as hard as you can in the holster. And
I was a little bit bigger of a guy, so instead
of one -on -one, they had three -on -one with
me. And I remember we actually broke the holster,
and I had every 10 fingers were all bloody. I
mean, I was not giving that gun up. But that
was very, very, very basic stuff. And even if
they give a 40 -hour block, it's incumbent upon
any recruit. to take their training to the next
level. It's never going to be enough, as you
know, 40 hours of training, no matter what it
is. But it was very, very minimal. And it's one
thing I never understood. I was pretty well trained.
Obviously, I could have been 100 times better
than what I was. But I went through years of
training, and it was like I felt that confident.
But there were guys and girls who enter these
professions with zero training and they do nothing
about it. And I don't understand it because a
lot of them, to me, almost experience PTSD on
a daily going to work knowing they are not ready
when it kicks off. And it's a question of when,
not if. It's going to happen. There's been an
absolute common thread between the police officers
that I've had on the show who are in great physical
shape. A lot of them are, you know. purple brown
black belt in various styles and those are the
ones that have the least hands -on um you know
numbers basically because the de -escalation
element of looking at someone and going yeah
i'm not gonna fuck with that person it's huge
you know and it's and police and fire are very
different we don't need to be intimidating we
don't need to have that look in our eyes it's
more confidence amongst chaos that we know what
we come into our own But when it comes to law
enforcement, yeah, there's certain people that
you see in uniform, like I can't imagine anyone
trying to fight that guy or female, you know,
trying to run from them. And, you know, it's
so important. But as we're seeing this recruitment
crisis and standards getting lowered and lowered,
I feel like there's more and more videos that
this is what happens. And when people say, oh,
we don't have the money for more officers, more
training, whatever it is, how much does each
one of these mistakes cost? When they shoot the
wrong person, because like you said, they went
straight to lethal force without having the spectrum
in between, or they simply didn't present a deterrent
to this person, even making bad choices in the
first place, you're talking millions and millions
and millions of dollars. So again, from the proactive
side, it's such an important conversation, not
to mention that a fit, able officer, just as
you alluded to, is more likely to have a better
time when it comes to their own mental health.
Absolutely. And, you know, we call it command
presence. When you step out of that car, everyone
at that scene sizes you up immediately, man.
And they see and smell, especially in the hood,
fear in your eyes. And, you know, you and I can
see it too. You look at a man, you can tell if
he's ready to roll or if he's shitting in his
pants. And especially in the hood, man, they...
The only way, there's no discourse. Every problem
is dealt with, with violence. So they're constantly
getting into people and they can just look at
people and know whether or not they're scared.
So if you come, you know, I've had plenty of
guys and they were just talking shit. I'm like,
brother, you are just a human target to me. Let's
roll. And they're like, you see him like kind
of reel back, like, whoa. And it wasn't like
I was the baddest man in the world, but I had
no. The only thing I worried about was getting
embarrassed, getting knocked out. Like physically,
I don't know, you could break my nose, do whatever
you needed to do. That did nothing to me. But
I never, I was like, man, if I ever lose a fight,
it's going to be so embarrassing. Plus, I have
a gun on me so they can, you know, take that
and pop one in my head and I'm done. But it is
so important. I just don't understand how you
go to work in these professions and you are not
ready physically. Come out of the car, look like
a bag of laundry, obese. I mean, you're an embarrassment.
to yourself. You have a family. You owe it to
them to show up in condition, ready to rock and
roll. How about me? You know, you may be able
to call the pawn to save my life. I know if it's
vice versa, I'm ready to kill or die for you.
Are you ready to do the same thing for me? And
a lot of times the answer is no. And, you know,
guys that look like that, they typically don't
know the law either. You know, it's not just
a physical portion. They're not ready for anything.
They have no idea they're incompetent. But unfortunately,
It's a numbers game. And these days, man, they
just happen to get a signature on the line and
hire someone. Some of these videos I see, wow,
I would hand in my papers the next day if that
was me. Well, the thing is, again, it's not shaming
the person. I've said so many times, it's funny
because this is what you were heading into, but
I would be a terrible accountant. I was awful
at maths, which is why one of my goals is to
become a doctor, and it was the maths that stopped
me. In chemistry, in physics, I'm like, okay,
I literally just can't get my head around this.
I'm done. So it's not about, oh, that you're
a bad person. It's just that you're not the right
person for law enforcement or fire or corrections
or whatever the particular profession would be.
And then you also factor in the people who have
been on for a little bit that, yeah, the job
does set you up for failure, which is why we
need to have that conversation too. The work
weeks and the shift schedules that allow a police
officer or firefighter to stay fit. stay healthy
and not gain weight. But then there's also that
line in the sand. You can be the nicest person
in the world. Fantastic. Doesn't mean that you're
supposed to put on a first responders uniform.
And we've got to acknowledge that too. And if
you can't find enough people, you don't lower
the bar. You figure out why does people, why
do people not want to do this profession anymore?
What needs to be fixed? Yeah. But what's the,
what's the solution nowadays? I mean, you know,
these guys and girls are seeing these videos.
of us and 90 of the time it's our own doing um
especially i the one that blows me away these
days is the fact that cops do not realize that
people you have no reasonable expectation of
privacy when you're in the public they can record
you all day long you see video after video of
guys and girls approaching and going head to
head with these auditors and other people about
telling them they cannot video yes they can just
leave them alone first of all learn the law you
know especially with um cameras being everywhere
these days, it's not unlikely that you may be
recorded and shown publicly, you know, just doing
your job. And for you not to know the parameters
of the law, that's a shame on you. You know,
the law is actually a weapon. It can be used
if you know what you're doing. You know, a lot
of times these people on the street ask these
cops, you know, can you detain me? Can you do
this? Can you do that? They can't even answer
the question. You know, you need to know what
you're doing. Because it's an embarrassment to
yourself if you don't. And, you know, forget
about law. So you're setting yourself up for
failure, like you said. Didn't Florida just put
in a law where if you get too close to a scene,
you're in danger of being arrested? That I've
not heard. But what's I mean, it's so subjective.
What's too close? Yeah, I think that's that's
where it's kind of gray area. But I think, you
know, obviously, because there is I mean, let's
be honest, let's look at the other side of it.
Now, if people are in our face and we're in,
you know, on the scene of a shooting, you don't
know if that person was the perpetrator. You
know, we're a paramedic trying to work that person.
So there is that there is legitimately, you know,
the other side of the conversation. We know you
don't have the right to be. right you know in
the middle of a bunch of first responders that
agree 100 so yeah and you know they should go
for obstruction if they are in fact obstructing
but the fact that so much solely recording you
you know from a safe distance that's what i have
a problem with i have absolutely no problem with
uh you know you're you're establishing some type
of perimeter and someone's violating it you give
them a warning they do it again time to go absolutely
fine But, you know, it's a very subjective thing.
Like, what is it, 8 feet, 10 feet, 12 feet? You
know, what do you guys, what is the law now as
far as, you know, distance alone? Yeah. Yeah,
it's funny you mentioned about knowing the actual
laws. There was a video. I have no idea as far
as, you know, the back story. But it was, I think
she said she'd been on 20 years, 10 years as
a sergeant. But she was being interviewed by
a lawyer. Obviously, she'd arrested someone because
they'd... And they'd asked for the ID and the
person said no. And so they arrested them. So
then they were saying, okay, well, under what
law are you able to do that? And she couldn't
even answer that. And she said, well, what are
your Miranda rights? And she couldn't even answer
that. 20 -year law enforcement veteran. Now,
I don't know them by heart, but I know that you're
supposed to if you're in law enforcement. So
yeah, that's the danger, isn't it? If you have
the wrong person in uniform, think of the damage
they could do. And then think about that. That's
a sergeant. what are the chances that that's
that she has created a huge amount of toxicity
in a department because everyone beneath her
knows that she doesn't even know how to do her
own job so it's there's so many reasons why these
standards are set and they should be upheld exactly
i had uh it could have been the same video for
all i know but i was watching a female sergeant
she was getting deposed and if you've ever been
deposed man it's pretty intense and uh they asked
her about detaining someone and they asked her
when can you detain someone? And she couldn't
even answer that. For those of you who are watching
who don't know, you can detain someone when you
think they committed a crime or about to commit
a crime or are committing a crime. That's when
you can detain someone. She couldn't even answer
that as a sergeant, one of the most basic tenants
in law. Yeah, sounds like the same video. All
right. Well, then let's go back to the first
10 years in Atlanta then. When you reflect back
now, what were some of the career calls or calls
that still stick with you? And it doesn't have
to be anything horrendous either. It could be
moments of compassion and empathy. But what are
some of the ones from that period of your life?
Let's see. I'll start off with literally my first
night. So we finished the academy on a Monday.
Excuse me. We graduated after field training.
So next day, field training starts. I was working
midnight. So we started at 11 p .m., worked until
7 a .m. By midnight the first night, so I'm an
hour into my first tour, I'm at my first homicide
scene. And that was a crazy story. It was actually
an Atlanta police captain off duty. He was on
suspension for allegations of him messing with
younger girls. I guess they would confirm that
night. He went and picked up a prostitute. She
was 16 years old and decided he wanted a small
crack. So he pulls up to the local dope boy,
orders his rock. Dope boy looks in the car, and
who does he see? You talk about a small world.
His 16 -year -old cousin pulls out a gun, puts
one on the guy's head, brain matter everywhere.
So first hour. By 4 a .m., myself and my partner
received a homicide call in our sector. So first
night, five hours in, two homicide scenes. And
it only got crazier. As far as memorable calls,
man, there's so many. I'll tell you, the first
truly traumatic one, and I never processed this
really, I get a call for an unresponsive 11 -year
-old, and our medical training in Atlanta consisted
of CPR. That's probably it, to be honest with
you. When I went through Suffolk County back
on Long Island, we were first responders, basic
first responders, so had a little bit of medical
training. But I get to the scene, and his mother,
his grandmother, and his aunt are in the living
room in hysterics. He's on the ground, face up.
on his back eyes are wide open i go over touch
him he's cold to the touch no pulse i know he's
dead no one's bringing him back but they are
in hysterics and there's no way i'm sitting here
doing nothing while i'm waiting for uh paramedics
to come so start doing tpr as i'm doing compressions
i can get liquid coming up his uh his windpipe
and uh throat and i'm like that should not be
there so doing compression doing compression
you can hear it getting closer finally i put
him on his side and just green liquid pours out
of his mouth i'm like what the hell is that just
then paramedics of fire walk in and i literally
look up and i'm like what the fuck so it turns
out he passed uh he died of bacterial meningitis
so um i So they took him and two of the women
in the ambulance. I transported a third. And
the whole way there, you know, she's in hysterics.
And she just asked me, please, officer, tell
me he's going to be fine. And to those of you
who are active, never tell anyone someone is
going to be fine when you know. Don't tell them
anything you know to be untrue. But certainly
never tell them someone's going to be fine when
you know they're not. So I said, ma 'am, I promise
you, they're working as hard as they can. Knowing
full well he was dead. And we get to the hospital.
Doctors figure out what happened, explain it.
And bacterial meningitis is not easily transferable
from child to adult. So they gave me a massive
dose of antibiotics. They essentially told me
to quarantine for 48 hours. So had I not had
to do so, I would have gone back in service immediately
as soon as I got back to the ozone. But I was
able to go home for those two days. Didn't really
think about, you know, what I had just been through.
Just kind of pushed that to the side. But eventually
when it got me. It was calls like that, being
inside the most devastatingly intimate moments
of other people's lives for 30 years, that kind
of created my PTSD, which I only realized after
I retired. Man, there were so many calls. I'm
trying to think of good ones. I'm sure some will
come to light here. This is a pretty good one.
This is my first. I'm about... So we get out
of the academy after field training, probably
end of May. So this is probably early September.
We've been on footbeat. There's about 10 of us
in zone three, which is where I worked. And we
worked in what was called a mini precinct. With
us were narcotics detectives. So there was four
of them. Two called out that night. So two were
going to be riding by themselves. They asked
if myself and my partner would like to ride along
with them. I'm like, hell yeah. So the boss A
-OK'd it. We were going to plainclothes with
these guys. So they know everyone and everything.
We kind of roll up to this certain dole pole
in the Pittsburgh area, it's called. And they
knew all the dealers. We get out of the car,
we're talking to them. And nothing adversarial
is going on. We're just having a conversation.
And the way it unfolded was we kind of went in
this circle of guys. There's probably about eight
guys. Again, nothing adversarial. It was just
the way semantics unfolded that night when I
was speaking. So just then a Jeep pulls up. I
walk up to the driver's side of the Jeep, shot
my flashlight and went on. I see this guy with
a, yeah, ended up having a car hot jacket on.
It was a really big pocket. And I can see the
butt of a gun sticking in there, sticking out.
So I opened the door, grabbed the gun. It was
.380, threw it in my pocket, told him to get
out of the car. He's under arrest. Had I had
a little more time on, I would have grabbed his
wrist and just taken him immediately to the ground.
But rookie mistake. My partner gets in between
us for some reason. I don't know why to this
day. And this dude just elbows my partner in
the face, takes off running. so he makes a right
turn but there's dirt on the ground so he uh
spills falls down gets up squares off with me
so he throws a left block at my right i still
have my flashlight in my hand so i'm not gonna
lie i try to break his collarbone so i hit him
a little high up here on his left side so he
just screamed and went down like that with that
movie tie clench boom knee to nose broke that
nose done So it started like a mini riot. I didn't
realize he was the man. He was like the head
door boy, Ricky Giles. I still remember this
guy's name, Rick Rick. So we had like a mini
riot. We had to quell that. Taking back to the
precinct, we threw him in the past, the whatchamacallit,
prisoner van pulled up, paddy wagon pulled up.
We threw him in there with his brother. They
were both cuffed. They got over on us because
they dumped like 200 hits of crack behind the
bench. We found it the next day. I get called,
I get a notification for a federal parole revocation
hearing for him. He was on federal parole two
months later. So I have to go, I'm testifying.
And one of the attorneys asked for a sidebar.
I love this story. So it's the two attorneys
speaking to the judge. She's to my left. I'm
kind of looking around the room and all of a
sudden he and I just lock eyes. And now he's
just eye -effing me. And I meant to mouth the
words, but I said out loud. fuck you. You had
to see this judge's head just like snap to the
right. I'm like, I apologize, Your Honor. The
federal prosecutor, her mouth was just agape.
She didn't know what to say. And the judge was
kind of looking around. She didn't really know
what to do at first. Then he went back to the
sidebar and went back to the hearing after that.
But it was just pretty funny. But this dude,
I don't know how he got away. Well, I know how,
because he was such a bad dude that no one testified
against him. But I don't even know how many bodies
this guy had on him. And I was, it's weird, the
first time that you use, when you get into a,
you know, a physical altercation on the street,
you're not really sure, by law, you're allowed
to use just a little bit more violence than they're
using against you to overcome it. But you're
not really sure. You never did it before. So
you're like, did I do too much? You know, am
I going to get in trouble? And everything was
fine. Never heard from him again. Those guys
told me I did a great job. But, you know, it
was kind of baptism by fire. The first time I
get into a little bit of... confrontation literally
squared off with a badass dude so you know it
was it was a good baptism by fire and you don't
realize it but um you get a reputation pretty
quickly in the hood so that cement of mine worked
out well for me well i know we're going to talk
about psychedelic therapy in a little bit um
which is such an interesting uh perspective now
because so many of the people that wore uniform,
either in our military or first responders, are
now having to go overseas to find the very treatment
that they need for the trauma they accumulated
through their service. And so the whole drug
prohibition thing, I mean, I talk about this
all the time. There's a difference between the
smugglers and the dealers. That is a crime. You
are trying to benefit off the addiction of other
people. But when it comes to the addicts themselves,
My personal thing is that I feel like the war
on drugs is a complete failure, like an 80 -year
longitudinal study that's been a failure. With
this three -decade lens that you have in different
places within the States, what is your perspective
of the efficacy of the war on drugs? And if you
were king for a day and thought something needed
to change, what would that be? That's a great
question. I mean, the war on drugs is a joke,
frankly. uh we are losing it by far you know
you'll you'll see interviews with cartel members
and they'll talk about sending like 10 shipments
out in a day and seven or eight of them get through
so we stopped those two but um i mean the overwhelming
amount of uh drugs is arriving here and frankly
it's because of the um simple economics i mean
there's a market for it supply and demand and
demand is huge so as far as I'm not sure what
the answer is because other than legalizing it
and going that route, I don't see how we're ever
going. There's just too much money involved to
ever win. There's so much corruption involved
up to the highest levels of government, both
ours and every other country that's involved
in the trade. There's no easy answer for that
one, to be honest with you. I was always against
legalizing it, but I don't know. I don't think
that's the answer either. i don't know it's it's
unwinnable so i don't know what you do you can't
raise a white flag i don't know and i apologize
the second part of your question no no that was
that was you answered it you know if you were
king for a day what would you change and you're
literally saying i don't know and i think this
is what's really interesting with your community
is if there is going to be any profession that
is the hardest to even get to acknowledge that
maybe the way you're doing it isn't working,
it's law enforcement. Because you guys from the
academy were taught, these are the laws, drugs
are bad, go arrest the bad people. And you look
at it over so many decades, and then you start
understanding the origin story of prohibition.
And Harry Anstinger, just when alcohol prohibition
ended, because it was an epic failure, and that's
why we know Al Capone, for example. He comes
in screaming racist, job justification, and this
is what starts the reefer madness, and then it
got worse and worse from there. What was really
interesting, and I've said this on the show several
times now, about 20, just over 25 years ago,
I think, my mom and my brother moved to Portugal
from England. And when I started the podcast,
like a year or so into it, she said, hey, did
you know what they did about the addiction problem
here in Portugal? And what had happened, a lot
of Portuguese soldiers were out in one of the
African countries that was one of their colonies,
supporting that government in some sort of war.
And they basically came back and there was a
huge opioid epidemic they brought with them.
And so the Portuguese are a very unique group
because they're kind of looked down upon by a
lot of the more affluent European countries.
But if you look at them, they do a lot of things.
more traditionally and as we know as we've had
to talk about a lot some things that we've done
a long time ago are actually the right way of
doing it so they they put it to the country they're
like look we're doing this war on drugs thing
and it's not working this american model isn't
working and so they put it to the entire nation
to a vote what if we took addicts and we put
them in the hands of the medical community not
the you know the the uh law enforcement community
law enforcement yeah now they're still going
to arrest any dealer any smuggler but they're
going to take the the money that they had in
the war on drugs and this is what we don't see
in some of these little pockets that have supposedly
tried it they put a huge amount of money instead
into addiction counseling mental health counseling
job creation housing to actually get the struggling
portuguese man or woman back on their feet so
they could then get back into the workforce,
pay taxes, and be a functioning member of society.
And I had the man, Zhao Gulau, who spearheaded
this on the show twice now. I sat with him in
Lisbon the first time. And it was less than 10
years. They went from the worst in Europe to
the lowest. They are now in the lowest addictions.
And what they did is they just looked at people
that were addicts as people that were struggling.
people that had mental health challenges that
needed to be brought back into, you know, to
be picked up, basically. And then what that did
is it freed up the law enforcement and the court
system to then hammer down on the addicts and
the smugglers. But if you, like you said, with
economics, if you get people to heal and you
also allow the medical community to take care
of addiction, you just cut the head off the snake.
for the dealers and the smugglers because it's
supply and demand. But what we did with prohibition
is we drove every addict into the hands of the
underworld. And then lo and behold, Mexico, El
Salvador, Colombia, you know, we created those
nightmares that they have in this country. Now
we're building walls to keep Mexicans out who
are fleeing from the very thing that we created.
So I really feel like the Portuguese model, which
is decriminalization. So you're not going into
the grocery store and buying meth and crack.
But if you have addictions, you're going and
if you get arrested, well, you know, you get
stopped, detained. You get with a personal amount
of drugs, you get an education on the resources
that are available. You're not forced into doing
it. So these people that were scared of being
arrested, they're like, oh, so I'm not going
to be arrested as an addict. Right. Well, then
I'm going to go look for help. But if we're worried
about being arrested and have a criminal record
and now your ability to work is even harder.
It's a vicious circle downwards in our model
here. But I think the Portuguese model is incredible.
And it really is held highly about the rest of
the world. But to our point, collectively, the
first thing we have to do is acknowledge that
there's a problem and acknowledge that the way
we're doing it now isn't working. And it's making
a few people very rich at the suffering of everyone
else. Yeah, I agree. And what I love about the
Portuguese model is, excuse me, if you were to
take say 10 addicts, and you just bring them
in a room and you interview them one by one,
the percentage is going to be extremely low of
people that are living very vitally happy lives.
Most people get addicted to drugs because they're
trying to forget about something that's going
on. It's rare that you get someone that's just
physically addicted, but the rest of their life
is going great. So if you sit there and you talk
to these people and you find out why they're
using and then you treat that problem, whether
it was sexual abuse, you know, there's going
to be, I would say, almost 100 percent certainty
that these people are going through other things
that drove them to drugs. If you treat that root
cause. You're going to now have someone that
no longer needs those drugs because that problem
that they were trying to forget is no longer
there. They've treated it. They've processed
whatever trauma it is out of their psyche, so
to speak. It's very basic stuff here that I'm
saying, but the concept is you're treating the
core of whatever drove them to those drugs to
begin with, and that's what you have to do. Yeah,
and I think that's it. I always say, you know,
the analogy of the fairy tale, the princess and
the pea. Like, you've got to get to the thing
beneath the thing. What is the nucleus, as we
kind of talked about with your early life? You
know, the inability to ever feel good enough
for your father, that's one of the pieces of
this. So now let's say you're in, you know, 2012
and you're kind of finding opioids filling that
void. And they're like, oh, Mike's just a piece
of shit addict. It's so much more than that.
And if Mike now feels like he's got to go into
the underworld and, you know, now he gets arrested
and now he's in prison, you know, and now the
predators are preying on his addiction, you know,
it's just getting worse and worse and worse.
Instead of simply saying, look, you're using
these drugs for a reason. Let's find what that
reason is. Let's do whatever needs to be done,
whether it's traditional or, you know, modern
therapies or whether it's something more traditional
like ayahuasca. help you grow from that and then
get you back on your feet yeah i mean it's just
like the uh antidepressant ssri you know prescription
i don't know uh epidemic i call it it's ridiculous
everything is treat you're just treating it with
a band -aid you're never getting to the core
problem of you know what's depressing these people
um it's very very rare that you're gonna have
a chemical imbalance i read something the other
day where scientists are now doubting whether
or not that's even a valid issue if that's a
valid what's the word I'm looking for here medical
condition so if you don't get to the core you
know the root cause of that you're going to prescribe
all these other medications to these people as
well it's the same exact thing it's just a band
-aid for something that needs some type of you
know critical and intensive therapy That's the
only way it's going to get cured, not by this
pill. Those things make them feel, I've never
been on them, but every single person I've ever
spoken to who's taken them and has tried to get
off says they feel absolutely nothing. Yeah,
exactly. There's no way to live. Absolutely not.
Well, going back to your kind of career journey,
you mentioned Atlanta for 10 years. What was
it that made you leave that department and where
was it that you found yourself? Yeah, so as I
was going through, I had been taking, again,
Long Island's broken up into Nassau and Suffolk
counties. Each have their own police department.
So I had been taking their tests throughout Nassau.
Nassau was weird. They had a nine -part test.
They threw out seven out of nine parts. So I
didn't do well on their test in 96. And Suffolk
County had a test in 97. I got 100 on it. I was
expecting to be called in 98 into an academy
class. Then they had a... cheating issue part
of the test is biographical and he found out
that uh they had i don't know 29 minority recruits
recruits and all 29 they cheated on the test
so instead of throwing out the test that 39 000
people took because all these guys cheated they
throw out the entire test so i had to retake
it in i think 99 i got a 90 on that but that
lower grade just caused me to have to wait till
uh to get on the job in 03 but i guess my biggest
draw back then was becoming it's funny to say
it now becoming uh geographically close to my
family again um although we weren't close i was
always trying to be the good son you know i thought
it'd be the best thing to do to get back close
to my family uh that was my biggest draw um you
know friends and family friends as well uh back
in new york that was still there i missed but
i don't think i realized how deeply roots i was
setting in atlanta had become Because when I
left, I really started missing Atlanta. I'd actually
started a police fire hockey team as well. That
had gotten pretty big. We became a 5013C, had
like a $35 ,000, $40 ,000 a year budget. I think
we raised like $160 ,000 in three years for charities.
So when I did make the move, I kind of felt out
of place when I went back to New York. I remember
calling back to one of my old majors. I was on
a list, a short list to go to K -9. And I'm like,
is that still available? Because I'll come back.
And he's like, nah, they just changed the rules.
You have to have three and a half years continuous
service on the street. So you'd have to go back
to the street three and a half. I'm like, no,
that's not happening. So I ended up staying.
I guess the biggest thing was my family. And
it's a joke because we were never that close.
And I was trying to be the good son. And I don't
want to say I sacrificed myself, but I was making
decisions based largely on a relationship that
didn't exist. You mentioned about all these multiple
tests and all these different parts. Talk to
me about how competitive it was to be a cop,
whether it was testing for Atlanta or in 03,
compared to what you're hearing now in 2025.
Let's see, Atlanta. Atlanta wasn't that difficult
to get on. Suffolk County, it's one of the highest
paid jobs in the nation. So again, when I took
that test in... 97, it was 39 ,000 people that
took it. In 99, I think it was like 24 ,000.
I mean, it was a very, very sought after job,
very difficult to get on. And let me compare
that to, I think their last test they had, I
don't want to get numbers wrong, but maybe a
10th of the applicants, possibly a little bit
more, but nothing compared to the amount of people
that used to apply. And it's just, you know,
unfortunately, people are looking towards other
careers, knowing that they're up for public scrutiny
at any moment in time. And even if you do everything
right, you can be subjected to that. If I gave
you a magic Harry Potter wand and you could wave
it, what would need to change to get those lines
wrapping the building again? Because I've made
this point very many times in my short career.
When I tested in California, it was 1 ,000 certified
firefighter paramedics or EMTs with a resume
sitting at that written test for 30 jobs, 3 -0.
Now, and I don't know Anaheim specifically, but
now there's departments literally that have five
openings and five people apply. So now instead
of taking 1 % of the list, you're taking 100
% of the list. Very, very different conversation
and a much higher chance that you've got the
wrong person in the uniform. So back to the question,
you're holding this magic wand. What would we
need to change to get back to that level of hunger
to be in uniform? That's a great question. You
know, I think several things, the genie's out
of the bag in several respects, so you're never
going back. So, you know, body cameras are here
to stay. That scrutiny is here to stay. The biggest
thing I think guys and girls are worried about
is that they're not going to be backed up by
the administration. So when you see chiefs and,
you know, command staff that is behind their
people, guys and girls know who that is and who
is running departments that way. There are multiple
departments down here in Florida that have waiting
lists that I'm aware of that I've spoken to,
you know, young guys. There won't be openings
for years. And when they are, they're filled
quickly with applicants. So the biggest thing
is telling these administrators that if you don't
have their backs, you're not going to be getting
quality applicants. And they know who and who
does not have their employees' backs. And I don't
understand, frankly, as a chief, how that cannot
be the number one priority in your job is supporting
your officers. There's a multitude of other things
you have to do, I understand. But you should
be an advocate for your cops. You know, someone
screws up, listen, it's on them. But short of
that, it is so easy and it's such an act of cowardice
to bury your cops these days. And you see guys
and girls doing it in these command staffs immediately
before the facts are in, you know, just burying
their own people. And from a perspective of you're
probably getting sued. So you making these negative
comments and conceding. that this guy or girl
did something wrong to begin with is full it's
just logically i don't understand why you do
it because you're setting yourself up for a bigger
lawsuit or you know for that video to be brought
in as evidence of what you said i just it blows
my mind to be honest with you that would be the
biggest thing show support I hear that over and
over again. And I hear, you know, conversely,
when I ask people, you know, when I listen to
people's stories, a lot of times, aside from
obviously, you know, some of the traumas that
we brought into the job, some of the obviously
the clearly traumatic calls that we responded
to, the other elephant in the room, aside from
sleep deprivation, which especially in my population,
is organizational betrayal. And I see it like
locally here. Both departments have lost numerous
people. numerous just to mental health issues
alone overdoses and suicides and you have these
chiefs that work 40 hours a week that go home
at five o 'clock monday to friday to their family
weekends off that don't have the fucking backbone
to stand up and fight for a healthy work week
that will then you know increase recruitment
and retention so therefore get rid of the mandatory
overtime for their people and i don't understand
how you can lose people that are under your command
and be unmoved by it i mean the cowardice is
nauseating and i would i would allude really
if you can sleep at night when your people are
dying and you're not doing anything to change
it then you need to get a mental health analysis
yourself because only a sociopath would bury
their own people and then sleep soundly at night
Yeah, I agree, James. I mean, I was talking to
a buddy of mine, Chris Martinez. He talks publicly
about this, so I'm not talking out of turn. And
he was going through an addiction when he was
on the job. And he sent an email to one of his
sergeants about asking for help. I literally,
I need help. You know, I'm drowning here. And
the guy didn't even reply. How? As a man, forget
about being a cop or his boss. Like this guy's
essentially telling you, I'm going to kill myself
if I don't get help. And you don't reply? That's
mind boggling to me. To your reference about
the sleep as well, Nassau County, our brother
agency to Suffolk, they do 12 hour tours. So
they do three on, four off, two on, three off.
And we wanted to go to that schedule. But our
PBA, which is super, super strong, would not
be able, those guys could not work that schedule.
They'd still have to do their five eights. So
they didn't really care too much about changing
it for us. So the effort was minimal to change
that calendar. And, you know, my thing is shame
on you guys. Like this can help us and you guys
won't do it or aren't, you know, not going headstrong
into this because it's not going to benefit you
guys. When in fact, if you see the pay that these
guys get, they get regular pay. Our first 150
hours of overtime, we're able to bank it. So
you typically get raises before the end of the
year. So you're 150, then get paid out at the
next higher rate. So those guys are allowed to
do that. Those guys get paid hazard duty pay
for being in a PBA. They get, it's incredible.
They vote these raises themselves or these benefits
themselves. It's like, you know, it's literally
like government. And they're a super strong union,
but I think it's sickening some of the things
that they'll do for themselves. But if it's not
applicable to them and it could help us, it's
kind of put by the wayside. They're not really,
it's not a big prerogative for them, to be honest
with you. Not a big priority. Yeah, this is what
I see. And again, pointing to some great leaders.
We've seen, for example, from the fire side,
10 fire departments now in the state of Florida
the last two years go to the 42 -hour work week.
making that courageous change and this is you
know people obviously at all ranks you know within
unions chief officers city and county managers
there are some great people there but they are
you know the the anomalies at the moment and
i was thinking it's funny you said about the
hazard pay because i had this very thought the
other day if you are not gonna you're not required
to have any courage once you're wearing bugles
and you're in an office position then you shouldn't
get the high risk pension yeah If you're pushing
papers behind a desk and you're like, oh, I have
no accountability for people under me now, then
great. Then you need to go to a regular civilian
pension then at that point. If you're actually
going to wear the uniform of a firefighter and
advocate for your people and keep that pension,
then you need to actually do what's right for
them. So I don't think that's unfair. No, not
at all. And one I just popped in my head, another
benefit they get is full night diff. So if you're
on day tours in Suffolk County, you don't get
a... You don't get night diff from 3 p .m. Is
it 3 p .m.? I think it's either 3 p .m. or 6
p .m. on qualifies you for night differential.
So full night diff is only given to midnight
guys because they're working 9p to 7a. These
guys somehow managed to get full night diff for
themselves, although I can imagine how many times
they're actually working at night. It's ridiculous.
I mean, their base pay is well over $200 ,000.
I think it's like, two and a quarter i want to
speak out of turn but something like that before
a moment of all the time for these guys now when
you say pba is that the union is that the benevolent
yep okay yeah so this is the benevolent association
and this is you know again what i hold you know
the the poor unions accountable i am a huge believer
in the union philosophy like when we you know
united we stand divided we fall i mean it makes
perfect sense but for example our national union
works you know their headquarters the the president
is out of boston 42 hour work week 24 72 zero
conversation of making that you know the standard
across the country while a lot of our firefighters
are working yes 56 hours a week our federal firefighters
are working um 72 hours a week 24 on 24 off so
there are so many people that just getting absolutely
battered And our very union that I paid into
the whole time I was wearing a uniform have never
mentioned the work week once, which I would argue
for a union is the very first thing that you
address is the working conditions. So there are
great unions out there. Pasco County, shout out
to Dixon Phillips. Perfect example. Him and his
people, not just him, of course. But, you know,
when you take. millions and millions and millions
of dollars of union dues and then are not fighting
for your people whether you're a chief whether
you're a city or county manager or whether you're
in a union in this case it's disgusting and i
think the more that we discuss it the more we
acknowledge it the more we can force change because
they are not fighting for anyone else but themselves
in those situations yeah i think it's disgusting
frankly i mean it's great having a union But
sometimes when you see the activities, it literally,
we call it the mafia. Some of the things that
are done and the way they're accomplished, it
literally just reminds you of a corrupt government.
You know, it's great when you need them and they're
there for you. But other times you're just shaking
your head like, aren't you guys supposed to be
advocating for us? You know, it's funny. I thought
that 2472 was across the board in the U .S. now.
FDNY has been doing it for so long. My father
did it at the end of his career. Actually, he
didn't do it. He drove the chief of the department,
but it was enacted prior to the end of his career.
I just assumed everyone had gone to it. That's
crazy. 24, 24. Yeah. Crazy. Absolutely. I can't
even imagine. No, no. And then again, it's, you
know, without going too deep down that rabbit
hole, if you look at all the things that plague
first responders. it is directly correlated with
sleep deprivation, shift work. From the cancers
to the obesity issues to the testosterone depletion
to the suicide and addiction, it's not the sole
thing, but it's an amplifier of literally every
single one of those. So if you wanted to have
the biggest bang for your buck, then you look
at law enforcement shifts and try and give as
much rest and recovery as you can and stop bouncing
from day to night, day to night. And in the fire
side, you put a 24. Do a 24 -hour shift. 72 hours
is when you return to baseline. That's a 42 -hour
work week. Going to an accounting thing, if you
were just working for a firm, you would do a
40 -hour work week without having to risk your
life at all or be up all night. So it is such
a crazy environment that you would have to even
convince people that the men and women that you
call on your very worst day. should work at least
the same number of hours as the person that makes
your coffee. It's insanity. Yeah, it really is.
And for those of you who are kind of minimizing
this sleep condition argument, think about getting
one horrible night's sleep and how you function
the next day and then put yourself in a firefighter's
shoes and it's never going to correct itself.
I can't even imagine working 24 -24 for you guys.
I mean, I used to do midnights every now and
then in overtime. And I enjoyed working at night,
but the next day you're done. You know, your
sleep is all off. So I'm going to bed now at
8 a .m., which I'm usually waking up, probably
getting up at 2, horrible sleep, those six hours
that I got. And then I'm going to sleep early
the next night to make up for it. I can't imagine
having to go to work the next day again. It's
horrendous. It is. Yeah, one of my California
friends just did a five -day shift, so 120 -hour
shift. I mean, it just, you know, again, the
potential for, mistakes, et cetera, just through
the roof, not to mention the, you know, the impact
on their health. But anyway, I digress. Yeah.
Yeah. Now they are. This is the problem because
again, the people that say you're allowed to,
they go home five o 'clock. It doesn't affect
them. All right. Well then you move back to New
York. So what were the differences between the
time you spent in Atlanta and the rest of your
career in New York? Wow. It was. The quality
of life cannot be described. It was one end of
the spectrum to the next. Put it this way, James.
I had to literally, I'm not joking about this.
I had to get used to the fact that when I was
now driving past people on the street, they were
not spitting and yelling, fuck the police. And
people were waving to us. I remember, I clearly
remember the first time it happened. I was with
my FTO. Someone waves to us and he waves. I'm
like, did he just wave hi? He's like, yeah, why?
I'm like, brother. I go, if they weren't giving
me a finger, they were not raising a hand in
Atlanta. And, you know, we'd go maybe get something
to eat or wherever we were. People would be like,
officer, thank you so much for what you do. I'm
like, they're talking to us? Literally, I had
to change the way I spoke to people. You know,
you're so, I don't want to say defensive, but
you're always in like condition orange in Atlanta.
I mean, you're just ready to rock all your heads
on a swivel. and it's a lot more of a relaxed
atmosphere. Not that I was ever in, like, cold
white where I'm walking around with my head on
my ass, but just a very, very different dynamic.
Bosses were great. I wasn't used to that. Atlanta
was very adversarial a lot of times with bosses.
Plus, we didn't really have a union, so they
could do whatever they wanted to us, essentially.
You know, let's see. What was weird was Atlanta,
we didn't get paid anything. But our equipment
was great. We always had the newest, latest gadgets.
Suffolk was the opposite. We got paid great.
But I guess consequently, our budget kind of
suffered in terms of equipment. We have like
older cars, just older everything. Not the newest
and greatest of anything. And it surprised me.
I thought it was going to be the opposite. But
yeah, it was just, it was a different world.
The crime that I saw in Atlanta, I saw in Suffolk
County, but on much, much smaller scale. It was
nothing close to it that I experienced in Atlanta.
What were the reasons for the differences? That
same country, human beings. So when you kind
of peel back the layers, what were the origins
of one area being so dangerous and another area
being more aligned with how we would originally
think of community policing? Yeah, so when I
was in Atlanta, I was in the inner city. You
know, I worked a lot of projects, definitely
depressed areas. You know, from a socioeconomic
standpoint, it was night and day. You know, if
we're kind of looking at a scale here, this being
the poorest and this being the richest Suffolk
County, now I'm in the suburbs and you're at
least, you know, middle class to extremely wealthy,
depending on where I was in my precinct alone.
Literally, I mean, I'd say that was the one difference.
I mean, it was heavily, heavily populated with.
Black people in Atlanta as well, and much more
populated with white people in Suffolk, where
I worked. There was a nice size Spanish population
in Huntington Village, which is Station, rather,
one of the areas that I work. But socioeconomically,
it was just incomparable. It was such a difference
in, you know, I'm going to guess the average
income in Atlanta. was probably 15 ,000. And
where I worked in Suffolk County, I'm going to
guess it was probably like 75 ,000. I mean, it
was that much of a discrepancy. It's funny because,
I mean, this is the thing is that people in their
mind think of certain areas, oh, that's because
there's a certain group of people here. And it's
not. It's like you said, socioeconomic status.
One of the places I worked in Orange County in
the Orlando area, we had... like a very strong
kind of Haitian group that we had. Some people
were directly there and some people obviously
were multigenerational. And then we had a place
called Taft, which was pretty much all white,
but again, very, very poor. And so we saw similar
incidents in both of those. And it wasn't about,
you know, the pigmentation of people's skin.
It was these behaviors born out of desperation.
And obviously culturally, you know, Haiti has
always been you know, going through the mill
anyway. So if you come from that kind of environment
into the States, you're already conditioned with
violence and tragedy and all that kind of thing
too. So you've got to take that on board. But,
you know, when I worked for the very last place
where I was protecting Disney World, you know,
anyone that was coming there obviously wasn't
doing too badly because they could afford Disney
World, which is completely price gouging from
the moment you drive through the pancakes. So
you did, you had a different group of people.
And so, you know, it wasn't about, again, because
they were from all over the world, but if they
could afford to go to Disney World, the chances
of them slinging crack outside Magic Kingdom
were pretty slim. You know what I mean? Whereas
Orange Bottom Trail in Orlando, you know, you
had all the red light activities going on there.
So when you look at that and you realize that
if you're just able to kind of help the areas
that are struggling rise up, like we said, proactive
initiatives like... you know, drug decriminalization
and putting real food back in schools and all
these other things that would make people healthier
and happier. It wouldn't be about, you know,
someone's ethnicity. It would just be simply
raising people up in the wealthiest country on
the planet so that we're eliminating the desperation
and therefore a lot of the things that you and
I saw in our careers. Yeah, absolutely. And,
you know, when people reference the criminal
justice system as racist, I say it's not. i say
it is 100 stacked against poor people you are
100 getting a different experience if you have
money as opposed to not having money when you
go through a court system and that goes for anyone
um it's got nothing to do with race you know
if you could afford that thousand dollar an hour
lawyer you're going to do much better than you
know a court -appointed public defender um You
just alluded to the fact serving healthier food.
James, I remember going into some of these supermarkets
in the hood and just looking at what people were
getting served. It was disgusting. And these
are supermarkets. It's not like it's getting
sold out of someone's car. I'm like, this is
nuts. I can't believe these people are getting
served this quality of food. It was disgusting.
And frankly, it blew me away. I didn't realize
that there was such a difference between what...
you're getting in the hood in a quote unquote
supermarket. It was a local supermarket, not
a big chain, as opposed to what people are getting
in middle income areas. It was disgusting to
see. I felt so bad. I had a guy on the show,
Pasi Sahlberg, who's from Finland, but he lives
in Australia now and basically travels the world
talking about the Finnish education system, which
is usually number one in the world rankings.
And when there is an area that is struggling,
And we see it here. When an area is struggling,
the schools get penalized. The grades go down,
they get less funding. Finland does the opposite.
When there is a community where maybe they have
to lean more on the schools and the teachers,
they put more support, more finances in so that
they can kind of be that cribbing for that community
and raise the next generation up. And we do the
polar opposite here. If you don't score well
on the standardized test, you get penalized.
So again, now you've got this kind of class system
where if you can afford a good education, your
chances of succeeding in society go up immensely.
But if you are born into poverty and then the
schools in those areas are being penalized, what
are the chances then for you springboarding into
some amazing career? Yeah, I mean, you're set
up for failure from the get -go. And it's a shame
to see. I don't know. I think these charter schools
are one answer because they seem to be doing
fantastic in most cities that they've been born.
But now you have public school unions fighting
them. They don't want them here. It becomes another
political hotbed issue. You're never going to...
be poor and receive the quality of anything that
you are when you have money it's just a simple
fact um here anyway other places in the world
i'm sure are set up differently but uh it's a
sad but true fact yeah yeah and it takes humility
and i think this is the problem until we have
someone let me rephrase that until we redefine
the way that we even choose the people that we
call leaders So that you don't have to be a millionaire
devoid of ethics, that you can just be a good
person and rise through that. We're going to
keep getting the same shit every four years.
You know, we've seen that for decades now. But
when you have someone who really has a heart
for the American people. And the humility to
go to other countries and say, Norway, show us
how you're doing prisons. The UK, before it's
got picked apart, talk to me about the national
health. Finland, talk to me about your schools.
Japan, how are you avoiding homelessness and
obesity? I mean, that is how we change it because
we are an amazing country. But there are a lot
of areas that we need to fix. But if we keep
just allowing this system where these, you know,
wealthy people are lining lobbyist pockets, then,
you know, we keep getting the same thing and
we're going to get fatter and sicker and our
streets and schools are going to get more dangerous
and our first responders are going to diminish
down to nothing. And then one day, you know,
this is genuinely a realistic concern. You're
going to call 911 and you're just going to get
a dial tone. That's it. Now what? It's the truth.
The game is rigged. Something's got to be done,
you know, revolutionary to change things. Or
I think that's what we're going to be looking
at eventually is some type of revolution. I mean,
the course has to correct itself. And there are
no simple answers. I mean, we just seem to be
getting more divided as time goes on. And I don't
know. I don't know. I don't know what the answers
are in many respects, you know, just politically,
socially. We're divided. We're divided people.
You know, we're supposed to be. It's one thing
I've learned in this healing journey is that
we're all connected. But unfortunately, many
people are hurting and have not healed. And they're
never going to feel that concept. But we're all
in this together, whether people like it or not.
And it's a shame that we have so many teams and
they're all pitted against each other. Well,
I mean, I think the reason we have that is because
there's a mental health crisis. That's why people
would allow their families and friendships to
be. fractured by a mask or a vaccine or think
that an orange or dementia ridden jesus is their
messiah neither of you have a flying fuck about
them so that shows to me that when you get people
stressed and tired enough because they're just
simply trying to work and pay their mortgage
that you can then you know cleave the nation
in the middle and uh yeah do whatever you want
so i think that the way forward is to is healing.
I really do. So good segue into this next part
of the conversation. You mentioned, you kind
of touched on 2012 and the opioid addiction that
you had. As you look back now over the last few
decades, you know, what were some of the lows?
And then let's kind of walk through how you found
plant medicine as a solution. Yeah. So let me
see. Lows. I guess my first marriage, you know,
I was kind of going through it around that 2010,
2012 area. She and I had got together in Atlanta.
We got engaged in Atlanta. We owned a house together.
And, you know, all along I had said, if I get
Suffolk County, I'm going to move back up there.
So she knew every step of the way that that was
my plan. And, you know, she's like, all right,
you know, I love you. I'll go. And then when
we moved up, most of our family that. The part
that she was really tight was still in Atlanta.
She was actually born in New York, but her mom
moved her down when she was five. So she still
has family in New York, but she and her mom are
best friends. So it was tough for her to adjust.
And my family did not make it easy. I have a
very jealous sister. So I know she didn't want
to see my mom and her have a good relationship.
So she tried to sabotage that as much as possible.
And, you know, to be honest, I was trying to
make everyone happy. No one was happy. Which
ended up kind of making me miserable. So that's
what kind of led to the, you know, the painkillers.
And, you know, once I got help, things were good
after that. We ended up splitting in 2018. We
just become roommates. It was nothing like, you
know, we were adversarial. We were coming home
fighting every day. No drama. It's just we became
roommates. I was turning 50 and my dad had just
gotten diagnosed with Alzheimer's. He was at
75. And I'm like, you know what? I don't want
to spend the next 25 years of my life just kind
of going through the motions. And if God forbid
I get diagnosed at 75, I just wasted like, you
know, that last 25 years. So we ended up splitting.
And I told her, I'm like, you're going to thank
me in the end. You're going to find, you know,
the man of your dreams because I don't think
it's me. And now looking back that I'm healed.
I think the reason why I was with my ex -wife
is because I loved her family and they gave me
the love that mine never did. And I never realized
this, as funny as it sounds. But I was talking
to my now wife. She's very intelligent, very
into higher consciousness thing, life coach.
And I was just telling her, you know, I couldn't
figure out why. And we got deep. And I'm like,
you know what? She's like, that was a theory.
I'm like. I think it's exactly what happened.
And they took me in, treated me like I was, you
know, their son -in -law from day one. Always
listened to me, listened to my opinions, you
know, just showed me love. And I just never,
I literally never sat down in my entire life
with my father and just had a conversation. It
was always him telling me what to do. And my
father -in -law was one of the most intelligent
men I ever knew in my life. And he would sit
down, listen to me speak, and just... Treat me
with the utmost respect. I knew he was a hundred
times smarter than me, but you would never know
it if you overheard our conversation. And, you
know, it was just, it was a relationship of respect
and love. And that's why I stayed with her. So
I was able to answer that question finally. But
yeah, the low point, I guess, was I got injured
at work September 22nd of 2020. We were helping
a 500 pound woman up the stairs. We get to the
top of the stairs, the rookies pulling her up.
I have to lift her right leg up. And the last
step, I put her right leg on the top step and
I see a leg, a foot starts slipping backwards.
And I just crouched down and just kind of blasted
her up the stairs when I did a herniated four
discs and ended up needing surgery about six
months later. I fixed some issues, but I needed
a spinal fusion the following year. So this is
April of 22. I was medically retired in... October
of 22, which is about two years to the day I
got hurt. And then I had to go one more year
for a workers' comp case. So three years of no
work, no volunteering, wasn't allowed to go to
the gym. I built one in my house, but essentially
wasn't allowed to do anything. It was a man without
a purpose. And idle hands are the devil's work,
man. I just started thinking. And it's funny,
as I was retiring, I'm like, man, I'm lucky I
got out unscathed. I just, I thought everything
was good. But I don't know, calls and... Just
feelings were popping up. I was getting angry.
I was getting depressed. I was having rage issues.
You know, I'd say a crossword to my wife here
and there, which she's the greatest woman in
the world. Every time I do it, I'm like, what
are you doing, asshole? And it was not crazy.
It was almost like we were getting crazy fights,
but it'd just be rude. And there was no reason
for it. I couldn't figure out what was going
on. And then I sat down to watch a Sean Ryan
podcast episode in spring of 23. He's interviewing
a man named Eddie Penny, former Navy SEAL. a
Team 6 guy, and he was just recounting a story
of the Extortion 17 incident in which a Chinook
was shot down in Afghanistan, killing all 38
aboard, including 17 SEALs. It was the largest
loss of community ever, and included in the dead
was Jason Workman, his best friend. And as Eddie
told the story of escorting Jason's body back
to Utah, his hometown, and then finally to Arlington
National Cemetery, he was crying, you know, rightly
so. He was very upset. And I simultaneously began
thinking about a call I had five years before
about a two -year -old floating in a pool. I
buried that call. It was actually the one call
in my 30 -year career I started crying. And I
told myself, like, you fucking pussy, you can't
cry. I stopped myself immediately. It would have
been the best thing I could have done, but we
don't cry, man. And as I'm thinking about this,
I just burst out. I'm just crying like a... baby.
I had no idea. I'm like, what is going on, man?
And kind of put two and two together really quick.
Realized that the feelings I'd been going through
those past about a year at that point were some
sort of PTSD from my job. And I always mistakenly
thought the PTSD was only caused by seeing your
brother or sister next to you get killed. But
mine, again, was caused by being inside those
most devastating intimate moments of other people's
lives. And I knew I needed help. Wasn't sure
I was going to do it. I didn't want to be this
ornery guy that hated everyone and everything.
You and I have both seen it over and over. And
I started really kind of researching modalities
of healing. I had heard these special force operators
coming back from war, self -professed broken
men, and their consequent healing journeys with
psychedelics. But I kind of dismissed it. And
I thought it was like, you know, foo -foo. It's
not for me. And now I started paying attention.
And I was watching podcasts. I was researching.
It finally came to the realization that ayahuasca
just felt calling me. So myself and my wife went
to a facility called SoulQuest Ayahuasca Church
in Orlando, Florida, March 1st of 2024. And we
sat for three journeys over the course of a weekend.
And my life was forever changed, literally after
the first ceremony. And as I was coming out of
it, and let me preface it by saying I had two
former co -workers and friends. from Suffolk
County PD that had committed suicide three weeks
before. The sergeant actually killed himself
in a precinct locker room. And the universe told
me, you are healed. Now, obviously, I'm not this
healed human. You know, you go through stuff
every day. But essentially, your PTSD is healed.
Your life's purpose is to go forth and help other
freshers, entrepreneurs, and vets heal theirs.
And I literally said, okay, out loud. I wasn't
sure I was going to do it. one thing i decided
to do is start my podcast and you know we'll
get into this but essentially over the course
of that weekend i changed my entire life i've
had you know numerous people on here have done
all kinds of journeys from ibogaine to ayahuasca
to mdma ketamine i mean this this is the thing
there's so many tools in the toolbox that people
don't realize are available to them and this
is where i think you know the hope is a lot of
them though you know they they reframe the way
that they saw certain things you know some of
them if there was an addiction obviously ibogaine
they literally walked out not wanting opioids
not wanting alcohol anymore what were some of
the the kind of areas of enlightenment or you
know boxes that were hidden away that were opened
through these journeys that you experienced yeah
so just like you said i tell people that the
medicine lets you see things That you've always
seen in a different perspective. It lets you
see things that you've never seen or noticed.
And it just kind of breaks down the walls that
have been surrounding you. So I literally, when
it started, the medicine kicked in, I don't know,
40 minutes or so after we drank. And ayahuasca
is essentially served like a shot glass. You
drink it. And it's two vines that are found in
the Amazon. And they're essentially boiled together.
You just boil and boil and boil and keep boiling
them down. And you get that finished product.
filter out the impurities and you're drinking
it so uh i started feeling the effects about
40 minutes in the ground started moving i started
seeing the most bright dynamic vivid colors of
my life started seeing geometric excuse me geometric
patterns in the sky and i remember i had my arms
out wide and i was just saying please i need
help you have to help me get rid of this rage
this ang i was crying um my journey was It was
almost as though I was looking at a big screen
TV and most people say they sense a female presence.
I did the same. They call her mother or mother
ayahuasca. And mother was in like the left -hand
corner of my screen. And I'm like, mother, I
need help. I can't get rid of this rage, this
anger, this hatred. And it was nuts. It was as
though every time I asked something, it was requested.
And it was like just a weight lifted off my shoulder.
I remember one part of the journey, she was bringing
my dad to me and it was like this big buildup.
um the music that had been playing in the ceremony
area was like building and building and it finally
hit this crescendo and i finally was in reality
just same volume nothing changed and then all
of a sudden it stopped in reality it was still
going on but and i'm waiting and waiting and
finally i know he's not going to show and i just
threw my hands in the air i remember saying out
loud i'm like coward i knew he wouldn't show
he couldn't talk about emotion but it was nuts
it was though at the time i think it was 54 55.
It was as though all of the emotional charge
of all of our memories was just gone. Like, I
was thinking of things between he and I, and
there was nothing attached to it. Like, instantaneously,
it was nuts. I remember also, I was watching
the volunteers work, and they're there for anything
that we need. And I'm like, I want to be more
like these people, so loving and gracious. Like,
look at them. And most of them weren't big. And
I remember thinking, like, I always... equated
being strong with like physical stature and physical
strength and fighting ability and you know shooting
ability whatever the case may be and maybe there's
a place for that in our respective profession
but i'm like that's not strength man it's strength
what they're doing takes strength I remember
saying, like, I want to be a more loving man.
I want to be more sympathetic, more empathetic.
And I felt like I was becoming that, like, instantly.
I'm trying to think what else I was asking for,
but, you know, I was just telling her, like,
I want to be more like these people. i just want
to be a loving man i want to be a good man i
want to be a good husband and uh i don't know
everything i was asked for was like being granted
immediately and i just felt like my soul changing
i can't describe it and at that conclusion of
four hours like i knew i i just felt like i was
reborn in a non -religious sense and uh I don't
know, I can't describe. Like there was so much
joy. You know, in one respect, I'm like waiting
for the balloon to pop and it's all going to
go back to the way it was. And the other, I'm
like, man, it's changed my life for four hours.
It was the most powerful cathartic thing like
I've ever been through in my entire life. One
of the, I think, misconceptions about a lot of
these therapies is like the magic bullet. Like
you just go through and you do it and now everything's
going to be great. You're living a Disney movie
the rest of your life. One of the truths that
emerged is that it seems like, again, this has
given you the ability to open the closet door,
but then now you have to go through, sift through
all the boxes and start unpacking things. What
have you started using as far as the tools after
these experiences to continue your healing journey?
Yeah, so it's a great point that the medicine
allows you to heal, but it is not. number one
it's not magic and number two you're never healed
um you're always going through trauma but the
biggest thing that allowed me to do is become
vulnerable like just now if first of all i never
would have been able to cry um prior to this
and if i did i'd be so embarrassed but now i'm
frankly proud of it um and it allowed me to have
conversations like this with other men and you
know talk about their most intimate And anything
I say, like I used to feel so weak talking about
anything that had to do with emotion. Now I talk
about any and everything. And, you know, I think
I have the ability to allow others to open up
to me. Like, you know, I'm told all the time
by guys like, bro, I never tell this to anyone.
You know, I can't believe what I'm telling you.
I'm like, hey, bro, there's no judgment, man.
I'm like, I've been through fucking, no one's
been through everything, but you can't tell me
someone's going to shock me. And we all think
that we're alone and we don't feel these things,
when in fact we all feel whatever we're describing.
You know, it's one of the biggest things about
this PTSD is everyone thinks they're alone. And,
you know, I could turn to cops right now. You
could turn to firemen right now. I could turn
to firemen right now. You could turn to cops.
We describe what we're feeling. And if these
guys allow themselves to open up, you're going
to see hands raised like, hey, James, I feel
the same exact way, man. I thought I was the
only one. There's hundreds of thousands, if not
millions of us going through it. It doesn't have
to be first responders or vets, civilians. You
don't have to be in these quote -unquote warrior
cultures who have experienced trauma. Everyone
experiences it. But now the greatest gift it's
given me is the ability to become vulnerable
and just talk and allow others to see. and feel
like my deepest emotions um i've been going through
it like the past couple of weeks been down a
little bit and you know i made a couple of reels
about it but when i have guys check up on me
it's not i'm good bro together kind of going
through it man imposter syndrome hit again and
uh my mom passed uh just about a year and a half
ago we were strange like the last month of her
life and I didn't really process that. Or when
I did last year, it was processed with anger.
So I'm kind of sitting with that now, going through
those feelings. And, you know, it's weird. Like
I felt unloved, to be frank. And saying that
used to, I never would have said it out loud,
but I would have felt like such a weakling if
I had allowed myself to say it. And now, you
know, I talk about it openly. Like this is how
I'm feeling. And there are plenty of other guys
that feel the same way. They're just afraid to
say it as well. So, you know, I talk about my
feelings in hopes that. it resonates with them
and they're able to raise their hand. Exactly
what happened with me and Annie Penny, like I
know now subconsciously this warrior is crying
and it gave me permission to do so. So everything
I do is kind of geared towards men and women
who are going through it now in the hopes that
I can give them permission to do so and raise
their hand and ask for help. You know, all my
guests, if they hear their stories, it resonates
with them. And I identify with them and realize,
you know, Zach Ferguson was my third guest. And
we both cried on the episode. We got done recording.
I'm like, brother, that was beautiful. Someone's
going to see a Navy SEAL crying just like me
and think, man, if he could cry, I'd fucking
cry too. That's not weakness. It's actually strength.
And it is. It's a sign of absolute strength.
Raising your hand and ask for help. Acknowledging
feelings. Talking about feelings. You know? being
tatted up and then also the and knowing how to
shoot good that's not strength you know it's
totally totally different it's uh you know we
equate like i used to do like physical stats
and all that with strength now being able to
talk and help people is a sign of that strength
i've used this analogy a lot recently when you
look at what a healthy human being is, it's the
yin and the yang. And if you look at what brought
us into uniform, it is the soft feminine side.
It's compassion, it's empathy, it's kindness,
it's service that drives us into uniform. Now,
if you're going into a school shooting or I'm
going into a structure fire, yeah, that's then
when we need the, I think it's the yang, the
hard masculine side for us to get in that flow
state where we're not thinking about emotions,
we're just doing the job. But then after is when
you need to lean back in for that other side,
showing your self -compassion, your team, whoever
it is. And as you alluded to, the kind of fake
machismo that we were raised on with the Schwarzeneggers
and the Stallones as supposedly the epitome of
masculinity or fucking John Wayne, which I never
understood why people thought he was a manly
man. But anyway, but yeah, and that's how you
end up with the tattoos and the shape, you know,
that's, that's the epitome of the, you know,
the salty firefighter or the hard nosed cop,
but that's the white circle. You've removed any
of the, the, the, uh, the yang at this point
so i always get those two confused i should really
have it on my wall so i couldn't get it right
but the the soft my wife told me last night supposedly
it's yeah i think it's young it's not she's like
it's not yang she's studying for a uh a yoga
certification and they were talking about it
in depth so i have to look it up myself because
i'm like i've been saying yang my whole life
yeah exactly exactly so but that's the problem
is that you get this facade of masculinity not
real masculine a real man as you said can be
dangerous when they need to be and kind and compassionate
when they need to be. And that includes a team
room, a fire station. Exactly. So the danger
we have is now you think you're this white circle
and then you transition out the other side and
you lose your identity and no one gives a shit
in Publix that you were a cop or a firefighter
anymore. And then, you know, that becomes horrendous.
But just as you've said, and this is why I've
got over 1100 guests now, many Navy SEALs, SAS,
Delta, etc. who have been courageously vulnerable
on this podcast. That's what makes them a man.
Yes, their skill set obviously is something to
be revered, but the fact that they were brave
enough to put it all out there, and you and I
spoke about the other day, anyone listening can't
go, oh, that guy's just being a pussy because
he's a SEAL Team 6 guy or a Delta or SAF. No,
no, no. You don't get to call those guys a pussy.
When it comes to courage on the battlefield.
They are the tip of the spear, truly. So if they
can be courageously vulnerable and you're a firefighter
or a cop or a plumber or a teacher, stop thinking
that this facade of being a tough guy. Understand
that real masculinity, real courage is this vulnerability
that we're talking about. Yeah, 100%. I actually
went for training with GBRS group last year and
DJ Shipley and I got into a... Pretty deep conversation
at the end of one of the days. And DJ's gone
through Ibogaine healing journey. And we were
talking about how, you know, respectively, each
of us didn't feel anything. And, you know, I
was like, DJ, no matter what uniform we put on,
we're a human being first. And what the fuck
is the point of living if you feel nothing? Like
life is beautiful, but we're going through it
and not feeling shit. We're deflecting everything
off of us, man. Trying to keep the pain at bay,
but then we keep everything at bay, including
our loved ones. And, you know, his big thing
was like he was yelling at his daughters and
wife and kind of couldn't help himself. And that's
what his father did to him. And, you know, he
was seeing himself exactly the way his father
was treating him as a kid. And he's like, I didn't
want that. You know, I realized that I do not
want to have my kids. I don't want to be that
man. And, you know, it is you could be a warrior,
but there is a lot more to a man than just. you
know, being capable in that field, you know,
what else are you going to do? How are you going
to raise children? What kind of husband are you
going to be? What kind of friend are you going
to be? Yeah, you're a tough guy, but that's all
you have to provide to the world? Well, it's
not going to get you too far, man. And, you know,
this vulnerability is, it's getting maybe easier
for guys to express, but it's still a lot of
work that needs to be done to get guys to open
up because we are. emotionally not intelligent
a lot of the times it's funny you mentioned that
you had you know a darker time the last couple
of weeks i've had the exact same thing timeline
wise and you know i know exactly what it is there's
family health issues and you know financial issues
and this has just been one of those shit storms
but when people have reached out and said hey
you seem like you're not doing so well i'm like
no you're right i'm not because that's what you
can do like before it all builds up to where
you're now at crisis you can be like no it's
been a really shit couple of weeks i'll be honest
it's this and this and this and you know on one
hand i'm really fucking angry about a bunch of
stuff on the other hand i'm you know somewhat
depressed but because i've been in and out of
these dark places before you know and it's not
the darkest of places but you know navigated
it it's like but i know you know i'm leaning
into the things that i know that work and i know
that it's going to get better and literally two
days ago i woke up i was like oh sweet i feel
better you know now is it again going to be there's
a lot of work ahead of me to mitigate these things
and hoping that some of the health issues will
will be better for you know my family member
but you know when you can identify it you can
be vulnerable and honest at the beginning of
a struggle so then you don't get that crushing
weight and i think that's i literally observed
this just you know two days ago That's really
important. When you can look at someone and go,
yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not doing well at all.
I'm really, I'm really worried about this. You
know, it's got me pretty fucking down. Everything's
kind of feeling a bit gray at the moment. Then
immediately you're offloading it before it really
starts building up. And I think that's, that's
a sign of growth, post -traumatic growth that
you can be that honest that nothing is ever really
allowed to pile up because right at the very
beginning, you were like, yeah, this has been
a shit week. Yeah. And kudos to you for, for
admitting it. You know, I feel the same. Like
I actually went to my wife the other day and
I'm like, I'm going through it. And I never would
have been able to do that, you know, a year and
a half ago, even though we're closest could be.
And we have great communication. I still wouldn't
allow myself to be that vulnerable. And three
friends over the past few days reached out. And
I was honest with them when in fact in the past,
we were like, I'm good, bro. How about you? And
just right off to something else. But we can't
do that. I mean, you can do anything you want,
but if you do it, you're not processing, you
know, what's going on. You're not being honest
with yourself. You know, and I feel like I'm
a hypocrite as well. You know, going on social
media, I'm telling guys and girls how to kind
of deal with their problems. And I'm not doing
the same thing to myself or I'm being dishonest
when my good friends are asking me. No, I mean,
that's if they're good friends, that's what they're
there for. And consequently, same thing when
I ask them and they tell me they're not doing
well. Let's get on a call or, you know, whatever
the case may be and talk you through this. And
it's just it's a human experience, man. It's
I think one of the best dialogues ever heard
speech wise was Sylvester Stallone and Rocky
Balboa when he's talking to his son about nothing
hitting harder than life and not being able to
duck those punches. I don't care how good looking
you are, how rich you are, how bad you are. how
funny you are like no one is ducking life and
life is traumatic at times it's a beautiful thing
but it ebbs and flows man and when those dark
times hit have a system in place to kind of get
yourself out of them quicker um you know feel
the feelings the only way uh out is through don't
deflect them don't don't want substances you
have to feel it but when you do you're able to
heal it I think one of the areas that is so exciting
that I've heard in this echo chamber that I'm
in for nine years now, but I feel needs to be
front and center in the mental health conversation,
aside from the feeling of burdensome as far as
a red flag. I've said this so many times on here
and written about it, that if you truly believe
that you're a burden to the people that you love.
That is your fucking sign to ask for help because
that's your mind slowly being twisted by that
point. But from a hope point of view, rather
than talking about stigma, because I would argue
a stigma is like a 10 years ago conversation
now, it's the hope of post -traumatic growth
and hearing so many people that are on the other
end of this, this crucible they've been through.
And like you said, not done healing, but being
through the healing journey for the majority
of what they were struggling with. That, you
know, in this case, Mike 2 .0 is a, you know,
a healthier, happier, more resilient version
of his former self before he went through. So
talk to me about that for all the people that
are scared to look in the mirror to begin this
healing journey. What is exciting about the other
side? Because I think that's it. That post -traumatic
growth conversation should be what we're talking
about now. Yeah, I mean, I think the number one
thing is what do you see looking back at you
when you look in that mirror? And sometimes it's
tough to do so. I remember a few years ago, my
buddy committed suicide and I was so sad, but
I couldn't cry. And I remember getting out of
the shower and looking in the mirror. I'm like,
man, you are broken. Like one of your best friends
committed suicide. You can't cry. So as far as,
you know, now. I just have, I guess, a different
perspective on life. And number one, I know there's
a lot more going on in this life than we have
any clue about. You know, I don't know. They
talk about dimensions and, you know, I mean,
there's so many theories that people believe
in, but I truly believe that there is so much
more. I believe that there is no coincidence.
Everything happens for a reason. I believe that
you're put through things to learn lessons. I
believe that you cannot ever make yourself a
victim. Never, ever. That's the worst thing you
could possibly do. When you're going through
it, look for the lessons that can be learned.
And maybe you're not going to see them for a
long time. When that poor two -year -old was
drowning in a pool, I had no idea why I was there.
But I now know that I was put in that situation
for a reason because of what I'm doing now. I
actually reestablished contact with her family,
wrote a four -page letter about last year after
I got on the ayahuasca journey. And because they
were, her name is Dana Sikorsky. She survived
and she was brought home. She was supposed to
be bedridden her whole life. She suffered a hypoxic
brain injury. Doctors were not expecting much.
Actually, they expected her to pass away before
she had three. And she has far surpassed what
anyone thought. Her family was so gracious with
the fire department and they were so glad, overwhelmed
with having Dana back at the house that they
didn't care, you know, that she was suffering
from, you know, the condition that she was kind
of in at the time. And they kept inviting me
to visit through the fire chief. And I had the
weirdest mix of dynamics, man. I was feeling
guilty for saving her because... I was like,
if she was already dead, why did we resuscitate
her if she's only going to be in this condition?
Then I felt guilty for having that feeling, that
guilt. So things just kind of multiplied. And
I never visited. Ended up going in there one
time. And I saw her. She wasn't really tracking
me when I went in. She couldn't really make eye
contact. And I started well enough with tears.
And it was radio traffic on the radio. It wasn't
even a call. But I pretended it was. It was like
220 copy. I'm like, guys, I got to go. And I
split. Never came back again. And, you know,
I apologize. I told him exactly everything I
had gone through. And I said, I now know that
I was supposed to be your house. It was supposed
to be me because of my purpose. Now, the rest
of my life, your daughter is going to be saving
people's lives for me. I'm like, she and I were
both supposed to be there. And I said, that is
one of our purposes in life. So, you know, they
were overwhelmed. And, you know, now it's I just
look for. the good in everything when I used
to be the total opposite. You know, I used to
be the pessimist. Everything was shady. Now everything
is good. And, you know, if it happens to turn
out not that way, oh, well. You know, I just
look for the positive. I try to, you know, I
change the way I handle relationships. You know,
I tell my buddies I love them. I don't know.
I just appreciate life more, I guess, is the
biggest thing. You know, sometimes we go through
and we have our trials and tribulations, but
you don't take stock in what you actually have.
You're always thinking about what you don't have,
what you didn't do, what you failed at, when
in fact you need to take time and think about
everything you succeeded at doing. The fact that
you woke up today, the fact that you woke up
today feeling healthy, you know, look at everything
you have, everything that allows you to contribute
to society, to help others. I mean, I can go
on and on, but life is beautiful. And if you're
not feeling that way, I promise you that you
can once again. You just have to raise your hand
and ask for that hope. And it's there. Absolutely.
Yeah, it's impossible to be in a state of gratitude
and also depressed or anxious. But, I mean, it's
getting to there again, you know, because it
is. I mean, it is a beautiful life. And not to
open that rabbit hole again, but when people
get drawn into politics and all these other things,
you know, they... phrase America as the people
in the blue ties or the red ties that they're
missing the point. Like this experience that
we have and the nature that's outside your window.
I mean, that's, that's what this is about. And
there is so much to be grateful for. You open
your eyes in the morning. That's a win. How many
thousands of thousands of people don't get to
do that. So I couldn't agree more. Oh yeah. Cause
I put a story up yesterday. It was a guy with
no legs. His arms weren't really functioning
and it was shown, I guess his friend picking
him off on the ground, putting him in the wheelchair.
And actually I started crying. And I'm like,
you're kind of going through it right now because
of a certain thing that I did succeed and I don't
have. And this poor guy, this is his situation
24 -7. And, you know, you're always told not
to compare yourselves. And I don't think comparing
yourselves to maybe people who are above you
is necessarily healthy, what they have and what
you don't have. But I think it benefits you periodically
to kind of look at people who are suffering.
and who are going through tough lives and then
when you contrast it with yours and how good
you actually have it sometimes it snaps you out
of it and lets you really appreciate it we all
go through bad first of all if you don't go through
bad how are you going to appreciate the good
you know it's never going to happen um do you
just be a spoiled petulant child your entire
life um You know, it's a yin and yang. You have
to have good and bad. And you appreciate the,
first of all, it was a lot more good than bad,
I promise. And you appreciate it a lot more when
you kind of go through that bad. It's a necessary
evil. Absolutely. Not even evil. It's necessary.
Yin and yang. Yeah. I don't know how many cases
you have to say that for 57 years to say it right.
All right. Well, for people listening, you know,
I'm sure they've been incredibly moved by this
conversation. I'm sure they'd love to listen
to your podcast, you know, follow you. Where
are the best places to find all things Mike online?
Yeah. So my Instagram is the resilient warrior,
five, seven, seven, eight. And if you want to
catch the podcast, that is the resilient warrior
nation. on YouTube and we're about to put it
on all the audio platform, audio only platforms.
I don't know why I don't have it on there. I
don't realize how many people listen to audio
only podcasts. I mean, I have to visually see
it. Brilliant mate. Well, I want to thank you
so much for, I mean, not only just the conversations
that we've had, but I always say this when people
are vulnerable on here, when they do bear their
soul and, you know, sometimes revisiting some
of these calls, you know, it, it pulls the scab
off the wound a little bit, but I know. how deeply
that's going to resonate and how many people
it's going to help. So I want to thank you so
much for being so generous with your time and
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Absolutely. It's my pleasure. And again, my honor
being on. Love being here. Love what you're doing.
Keep doing what you're doing. I can't imagine
how many lives you've affected. A thousand guests.
It's incredible. So keep doing what you're doing.
You're on a mission, man. Noble.