WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

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I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a

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firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and

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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to

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transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind

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the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James

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Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor

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to welcome on the show FDNY veteran Jimmy Sands.

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Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host

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of topics, from his journey into the volunteer

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fire service, getting hired at the FDNY, his

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unique perspective of both 9 -11 and, more importantly,

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9 -12, His firsthand account of the tragic Deutsche

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Bank fire, the ripple effect of that event, his

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powerful mental health story, and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. Sans. Enjoy. Well, Jimmy, I want

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to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank

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you to Rebecca Trediani, if I've probably butchered

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her name now, who I taught when I was a camp

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counselor years ago, but she was the one that

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made this connection. And secondly, I want to

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welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast

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today. Thank you, bro. Nice to meet you. So where

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on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I am in West Webster, New York, about three minutes

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and 27 seconds from the south shore of Lake Ontario.

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Beautiful. Well, I would love to start at the

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very beginning of your story. So tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. All right. I'm the oldest of three.

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My mother and father, James and Carol Sands.

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I was born in Jackson Heights, Queens. We all

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were raised in Queens, New York, Glendale and

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Ridgewood, New York. kind of in the center of

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Queens. Dad was a purchasing agent for a law

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firm, Cravat Swannamore, Manhattan. And my mom

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worked for an insurance company in downtown Manhattan.

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What was the environment like back then? When

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I think of Queens, I still think, you know, somewhat

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urban, but I might be completely skewed in my

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perspective. You know, what was the kind of neighborhood,

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the environment like you were growing up in?

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It was one of the most unique neighborhoods and

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times that anyone could grow up. Where we grew

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up in Glendale, we were surrounded by cemeteries

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and we had Forest Park and that had a golf course

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in it. You know, there's a huge park up there.

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We all grew up in those neighborhoods, you know,

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two -story taxpayers. Every street had a pizzeria

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or a deli on it, you know. A lot of schools,

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for the most part, growing up back then was really

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special. You know, just, you know, regular everyday.

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It's the early 80s. You know, you see these TV

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shows. Yeah, it was like that. What about sports

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and exercise? What were you playing and doing

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back then? Oh, back then, I didn't really do

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much. I just got into trouble. I was one of the

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troublemakers in the neighborhood. And I was

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also a Boy Scout. So I split my time evenly between

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getting into trouble and getting grounded all

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the time and going out learning about the wilderness

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and camping and just, you know, just being a

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scout, you know. And as far as sports, didn't

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really play a whole lot. Softball here and there,

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baseball when I was younger. But it's really

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all I did. Besides working, learning to be an

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electrician and, you know, having to go through

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the newspaper and find ads for jobs. You know,

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not like you can go online and fill out a resume

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and send it in. But I started doing that and

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that, you know, something that I still do today.

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What about the fire service itself? Were you

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exposed to firefighters, stations, et cetera,

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when you were young? Yeah, so when we grew up

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in Glendale, we had the Myrtle Turtles. They

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were the Glendale Firehouse. When we were younger,

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we'd go to tours of the firehouses down there.

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When I was in Scouts, we had learned that the

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call boxes in the five boroughs would be on the

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light posts. there'd be an orange light up there

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and they would be pointing in the direction of

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an actual fire call box. So we learned that in

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scouts and we were coming home from a scout meeting

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one day and I saw smoke coming out of the attic

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of a house on the way home. And I said, mom,

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I think that house is on fire. So she pulled

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over and I said, no, no, go over there. And I

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looked at the light and I saw the thing. So I

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was able to pull the call box. And, you know,

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I mean, I wanted to be a firefighter since I

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was a little kid. I mean, what kid doesn't? you

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know, especially back then, you know, it was,

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it was the cool thing to do, you know, and, uh,

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you know, here we are today, all these years

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later, um, you know, making it on that job. And,

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you know, when we get to that, we get to that.

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What about career aspirations? You mentioned

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wanting to be a firefighter. Was that something

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that was driving you the whole time or was there

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another occupation in your mind too? You know,

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I, we grew up and I grew up in a, in a different

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time. Um, It's so hard to explain, but back then,

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I was doing the construction. When I was younger,

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I wanted to be an astronaut. That wasn't going

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to happen. I had a GED, was going to go into

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the military. I, uh, when I left New York city

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for a couple of years, uh, to get my GED, I saw

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what life was like outside of the city. And that's

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ultimately what brought me up here to Western

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New York. Um, it was just a different place,

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you know, there was so much more to do and people

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were nicer and, you know, I'm a city guy forever,

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but I liked the niceness too, you know? Um, yeah,

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I just, uh, I didn't know about the fire department

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really until the volunteers kicked in in late

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nineties. Um, that's what I was exposed to. Like,

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wow, you can be a volunteer firefighter. And

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then the talk about getting hired and taking

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the test and stuff, you know, I can thank the

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first volunteer department I was a member of,

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you know, and then from that point on, I, my

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whole life has been about the fire service. I,

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when I've worked with Rebecca. She was in upstate

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New York, Long Lake, New York, almost by the

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Canadian border. And it was so interesting. You

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know, you fly into New York, you're in Manhattan

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for that night. And then off you go up to the

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boonies, basically. And it's beautiful. You know,

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mountains covered in pine trees and these lakes

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everywhere. When you look at the contrast between

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the two, my perspective is I feel like a lot

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of the issues that we have in cities is that

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people aren't supposed to be crammed on top of

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each other like that. And it's almost like a

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natural human expression to be angry and all

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these other emotions that we see. What is your

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perspective of that, this kind of more rural

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community that you're in now versus this landscape

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of skyscrapers that we have in our metropolitan

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cities? It's night and day. you know we opened

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the door for each other you know good morning

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good morning good morning you know friendly conversation

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you know i growing up in new york city you didn't

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have that a lot you know there wasn't a lot of

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really friendly conversation i mean we were raised

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to respect everybody so i mean i've been opening

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doors and holding doors for people my whole life

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you know that's just how we were raised and uh

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you know i had to get out of the city because

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of that uh fire and You know, it's much more

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peaceful up here. You know, we got a great lake.

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I mean, I've swam in that lake. I've boated in

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that lake. I got married in that lake, literally.

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And the people are so great. And, you know, I've

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been coming up here for a long time until I moved

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up here, which is 11 years ago. It's just so

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much nicer than the city. You know, I just, when

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I go down there, I just, I hate being down there.

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You know, I like to see the people that I care

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about, but I just, I hate driving down there.

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It's a much different driving down there. There's

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no traffic up here. 10 minutes, that's it. You

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know, I mean, it's fine for me. And then if I

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want to go to Canada, like an hour away, it's

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nice to be up here. There's a lot of stuff to

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do up here too. Absolutely. It's interesting

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because we're going to obviously get into the

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first responder mental health conversation in

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a little while. The number of people that have

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come on the show and they may, like you, have

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been part of an acute event. But actually, when

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you start unpacking it, one of the biggest kind

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of fractures in their foundation is their early

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life before they ever put the uniform on. When

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you reflect back now with this mature lens that

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you have, were there any elements of your upbringing

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you think that contributed to struggles later

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in life? Oh, 100%. Like I said earlier, I grew

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up in a... in a pretty interesting time. We had

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a lot of fun. We did the graffiti. We hung out.

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We had the parties. We had the fights. It was

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just something that we all did. I took that lifestyle

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with me for a few years after I got out of the

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neighborhood. It wasn't until the fire service

00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:46.679
changed things over. Some of the decisions I

00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.700
made back then You know, I feel I lost like three

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or four years of my life. I could have taken

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that other fire department test. Maybe I'd be

00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:58.220
already beyond. You know, maybe I would have

00:11:58.220 --> 00:12:00.679
gone into the military. You know, if I hadn't

00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.080
done the silly things I did when I was growing

00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.200
up, you know, maybe I'd be a better student.

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Maybe I would have gone through college. So a

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lot of things that happened growing up affected

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my life. But this fire service completely changed

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it. It was almost like. going to sleep one night

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and waking up the next day and you have a brand

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new life. And everything that I've done since

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I got on that job, even with the volunteers,

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has been nothing but paying it forward and helping

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people. And I did that before, but now I have

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a lot of ways to actually put it in motion now,

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if that makes any sense. What do you think sent

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you into the direction of some of those poorer

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decisions when you were younger? We all did it.

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I mean, it's what we all did. You know, we were

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young, young, young dum -dums, the best way to

00:12:54.389 --> 00:12:58.070
explain it. You know, we'd rather hang out and

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smoke the lettuce and have keg parties and write

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graffiti than focus on studies and stuff. You

00:13:05.629 --> 00:13:07.529
know, not all of us were that bad. You know,

00:13:07.529 --> 00:13:10.289
quite a few of us got out of that and did great

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things with their lives. You know, that was just

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the time. What about career aspirations? I know

00:13:16.379 --> 00:13:18.419
you became a volunteer firefighter, and we'll

00:13:18.419 --> 00:13:20.100
get into that, but what were you doing as far

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as a job pre -fire service? It was from the electrician

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and the carpentry. I've been doing that for years.

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I mean, I still do the electric to this day.

00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:34.759
It was a good job. I had great times, met some

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great people. Even a guy that I worked for years

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ago, I had been down this past April. My mom

00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.200
was sick. And I was like, hey, you need any help?

00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:45.000
You know, I wouldn't mind. I'm going to be down

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here for a couple of weeks. And I called him

00:13:46.580 --> 00:13:47.899
up and went out to work with him a couple of

00:13:47.899 --> 00:13:50.919
days. You know, it's like it's a nice trade to

00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:52.759
have. And it's great in the fire service, too.

00:13:53.259 --> 00:13:55.000
You know, you have a lot of knowledge, you know,

00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.320
building construction and electrical and things

00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.879
like that. With that lens in the construction

00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:04.139
side too, you hear quite often that there is

00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:07.120
a mental health crisis in construction workers

00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.159
too. And obviously it's not as front and center

00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.360
as it is and seeming to become now in the fire

00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.100
service. What were you seeing as far as not just

00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:17.679
suicide, but addiction, alcohol, et cetera, in

00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:22.340
that profession? Back then, it was a lot of alcohol,

00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:28.840
a lot of dope. You know, some of the guys, I

00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.360
mean, one electrician I worked for a long time

00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.120
ago was one of the first people. He had a Marlboro

00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:37.679
pack with weed in it, you know, and after we're

00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.159
done working, it's for his back. So he hid his

00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.379
weed. You know, I'm, you know, 18 years old and

00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:45.059
I'm sitting in this guy's front seat of his truck

00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:46.879
and he's smoking a lettuce. I'm like, OK, here

00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.659
we go. But I mean, yeah, alcoholism. Yeah. And

00:14:49.659 --> 00:14:52.320
those jobs are kind of stressful, too. You know,

00:14:52.340 --> 00:14:54.840
I was fortunate that I didn't really experience

00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:59.299
that much. of that suicidal tendency, but definitely

00:14:59.299 --> 00:15:03.220
the addictions. But, you know, some guys really,

00:15:03.299 --> 00:15:05.860
it burns you out. You know, you work for the

00:15:05.860 --> 00:15:08.360
wrong company. They force you to get things done.

00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:11.480
And, you know, you have a life too. You know,

00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.000
you're hurt. I don't care. It's got to get done.

00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:16.019
It stresses people out, you know? And I mean,

00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:18.879
I know a couple of guys that drinking really

00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:20.940
got to them. I've never heard anything from them

00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:24.059
since, but. Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be spoken

00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:26.440
about that. I mean, this is the thing I feel

00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:29.759
that if we can really make big changes in the

00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.100
fire service, we can then be a beacon for a lot

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:33.659
of the other professions, you know, if we can

00:15:33.659 --> 00:15:35.960
fix us and we can help fix other people too.

00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:43.440
So let me just write that down. I just totally

00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:49.809
brain fired then one second. So then what about

00:15:49.809 --> 00:15:52.429
your introduction to the volunteer fire service?

00:15:52.470 --> 00:15:55.690
How did you find your way there? I was working

00:15:55.690 --> 00:15:58.590
in a friendlies in North Belmore, Long Island.

00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:02.649
And one of the kids there that I met, he just

00:16:02.649 --> 00:16:04.909
started as a volunteer in a Freeport fire department.

00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:08.990
So I had gone over there and visited the firehouse

00:16:08.990 --> 00:16:11.169
with him and stuff. And I lived in a different

00:16:11.169 --> 00:16:15.529
town. And I didn't know about residency and stuff

00:16:15.529 --> 00:16:20.120
like that. Because I worked close to that town,

00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:23.840
I was able to join there as a volunteer. And

00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.379
I would spend my weeks there at the volley house,

00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.139
sleep overnight because I worked in town. But

00:16:30.139 --> 00:16:32.220
I lived like four towns away, so I'd go home

00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:34.120
on the weekends. It was just me and my apartment.

00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:40.480
But it definitely interested me. I thought the

00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.600
hearse tour was the most greatest thing in the

00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.000
world. We did the Draws a Life tournament one

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.639
year. in free from freeport long island we did

00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:52.480
one up here in fairport and that's another volunteer

00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.279
fire department i was in when i come back up

00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:58.620
here but uh yeah it gave me the wow i want to

00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:01.200
do this you know and then i took the test because

00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.019
of that fire department for the fdny you know

00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:07.559
that was back in 98. a lot of things have changed

00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:12.240
since how competitive was it to be a firefighter

00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.799
back in 98 everybody wanted that job I mean,

00:17:16.819 --> 00:17:20.579
to be in the FDNY, yeah, you wanted it. Every

00:17:20.579 --> 00:17:22.859
volunteer that I knew wanted to be on that job

00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:26.599
and even other people. And I was very fortunate

00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:28.799
that I got in there and I was able to test and,

00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:32.539
you know, get the call. I had actually broke

00:17:32.539 --> 00:17:34.619
my ankle in a couple of places taking the agility

00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:40.220
test to move forward. And I completed it, but

00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:44.109
it was the last portion of it. Long story short,

00:17:44.230 --> 00:17:46.609
I went to the bottom of the list of that test.

00:17:46.809 --> 00:17:50.349
But I got called in 2004. But when we all took

00:17:50.349 --> 00:17:52.049
the test, some of these guys were already working

00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:55.410
two or three years before I was able to get on.

00:17:56.210 --> 00:17:58.789
But no, it was one of the most amazing things

00:17:58.789 --> 00:18:02.130
I've ever done in my life. When we talk about

00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.059
the volunteer fire service... Of course, there's

00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:07.319
absolutely a place for it. You're out in the

00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.700
middle of nowhere, truly. You're protecting a

00:18:09.700 --> 00:18:12.359
city or a town, not a city even, a village or

00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:15.440
a town of a couple of thousand people. Then you

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.500
can see the application. What's interesting,

00:18:18.619 --> 00:18:21.279
though, New York, New Jersey, they're still relying

00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.059
on volunteer firefighters when they're in densely

00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:26.619
populated suburban communities now with a large

00:18:26.619 --> 00:18:30.440
tax base. what is your perception of some of

00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.940
those departments actually becoming career and

00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:36.099
paying these these men and women full -time so

00:18:36.099 --> 00:18:39.420
you know i am i am a hundred percent pro volunteer

00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:44.119
i'm also 100 career and there's a lot of brothers

00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.099
and sisters that you know no we don't want the

00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:49.380
volleys or no we need the volleys i understand

00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:54.559
why they need the volleys um But I mean, it's

00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:56.619
getting harder and harder to retain them. You

00:18:56.619 --> 00:19:00.319
know, I spoke at a class a couple of weeks ago.

00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:04.779
Yeah, 27 young adults taking their firefighter

00:19:04.779 --> 00:19:07.400
one in New York State. They're either working

00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:12.339
full time or they're students and working. And

00:19:12.339 --> 00:19:15.420
it's like six months long, but they're doing

00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:17.599
these things on Tuesday nights and Thursday nights.

00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:22.799
So, you know, it's a lot. I don't know how they're

00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:28.559
able to manage it. But, you know, we have bills

00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:30.779
to pay. New York is very expensive right now.

00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:34.160
And, you know, these guys and girls have to go

00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:38.519
to work. On the other hand, I feel that these

00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.000
volunteer departments, every one of these members

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.180
should be, you know, turn into some type of paid

00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:47.460
staff. You know, whether it's part -time, you

00:19:47.460 --> 00:19:49.319
know, and they have some personnel there, you

00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:52.240
know. I think that would be a great thing. But,

00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.500
I mean, we need first responders local. You know,

00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:58.559
you get these big city departments and coming

00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.359
from New York City, you know, there's plenty

00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.359
of guys and girls to come respond on the rigs.

00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.920
But up here, you know, you got weather. You know,

00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:08.480
you have other issues. The city of Rochester

00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:12.500
has a career department. You know, I forgot how

00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:18.059
many, maybe 800. Maybe 800 members, maybe a little

00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:20.359
bit more than that. You know, they get the city

00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.019
stuff, but then the towns up here, yeah, it's

00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:27.000
a lot of houses. And, you know, weather is a

00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.720
big deal up here, especially in the wintertime.

00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:31.240
You know, so you need other volunteer departments

00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.740
to have staff and stuff. And, you know, I think

00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:39.279
they should be paid somehow. My argument is just

00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:41.880
simply, do you have a paid law enforcement? If

00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.619
you do, then why are you a fire and or EMS volunteer?

00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:48.579
It makes no sense. Yeah. And, you know, law enforcement,

00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:50.980
too. I mean, there's plenty of crime going on.

00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:54.779
You know, it's just I feel like we need more.

00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:57.119
But these cops do really well with what they

00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:58.660
have. I mean, for the most part, everybody's

00:20:58.660 --> 00:21:00.640
pretty decent where I live. You know, you got

00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:02.460
a couple of towns over, you get some shenanigans

00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:04.279
going on, you get into the city and it's constant.

00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.440
They got nine priorities held up times like an

00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.319
hour, you know, so like same thing with EMS.

00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:11.799
Nobody wants to be an EMT because you don't make

00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:14.380
enough money and you cannot make enough money

00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:17.210
being an EMT or a medic. as your primary job

00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:20.190
you know but you're working 12 plus hours mandatories

00:21:20.190 --> 00:21:23.470
here and there and uh you know they're still

00:21:23.470 --> 00:21:25.849
waiting for ambulances to show up you know it's

00:21:25.849 --> 00:21:28.829
it's tough right now all over the country yeah

00:21:28.829 --> 00:21:30.710
yeah i feel just the priority you know we'll

00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:32.450
get to your 911 story in a minute but you know

00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:34.890
post 9 11 there was all that support and all

00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:37.809
the financing and the government grants and you

00:21:37.809 --> 00:21:40.210
know how how quickly we forget and now the first

00:21:40.210 --> 00:21:42.309
responders as far as priorities are at the bottom

00:21:42.309 --> 00:21:44.670
again just like they were you know a few decades

00:21:44.670 --> 00:21:47.880
ago so You know, we're a very fickle nation when

00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:52.640
you look at it. Oh, yeah. You know, 9 -11 is

00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:54.799
probably the only reason I got hired on that

00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.279
job because, you know, God bless our 343. You

00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.900
know, I got hired September 12th of 2004, you

00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:07.619
know, and it was the last class from that list

00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:10.539
that I took. I think that test was in 98, you

00:22:10.539 --> 00:22:12.140
know, and I was just very fortunate that I was

00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:14.950
able to get hired by that job. just get my life

00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:17.029
in in the direction and to where it is right

00:22:17.029 --> 00:22:20.869
now but with a lot of sadness absolutely well

00:22:20.869 --> 00:22:23.910
before we go to the kind of fdmy part when you

00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:26.250
reflect back now what were some of the significant

00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:31.630
calls you had in a volunteer uniform oh um i

00:22:31.630 --> 00:22:34.849
remember us taking a patient out on a ladder

00:22:34.849 --> 00:22:38.309
um the woman was cooked up you know head to toe

00:22:38.309 --> 00:22:43.250
um from the uh the root uh from the uh the I

00:22:43.250 --> 00:22:47.089
think it was a Queen Anne. That was something

00:22:47.089 --> 00:22:49.930
that I'll never forget that. That was the first

00:22:49.930 --> 00:22:54.490
time I saw and smelled burnt flesh. And you know

00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:57.069
as a fireman too, you never forget that smell

00:22:57.069 --> 00:22:59.950
of burnt flesh. You can smell it right now just

00:22:59.950 --> 00:23:01.630
talking about it. It's something that's stuck

00:23:01.630 --> 00:23:06.049
in your head. Some car accidents, some very interesting

00:23:06.049 --> 00:23:10.150
car accidents where we pulled people out. You

00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:13.569
know, with the other departments, I mean, I saw

00:23:13.569 --> 00:23:16.769
the aftermath of a woman suicide hit by a train,

00:23:16.930 --> 00:23:22.170
several cars versus trains. You know, I kind

00:23:22.170 --> 00:23:25.329
of fell through the floor of a structure that

00:23:25.329 --> 00:23:28.950
in this area called the Oxbow. It was on fire

00:23:28.950 --> 00:23:31.240
and we were. getting in there with the line and

00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:32.720
there was a hole in the floor so i went through

00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.299
and the captain grabbed me you're good fit um

00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:37.799
you know that stuck with me because like i thought

00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.019
i was going right into the erie canal and you

00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:42.000
know it was on the canal but not right underneath

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.000
i'm like going to the basement like no you're

00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.359
going into the canal i'm like oh jesus um you

00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.319
know yeah and uh i mean i i've seen i've seen

00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:54.900
a lot of ems calls too you know um car accidents

00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:59.170
um When I was in the volleys in Queens, we had

00:23:59.170 --> 00:24:01.650
the ambulance for NYPD car head on into another

00:24:01.650 --> 00:24:04.390
car. We actually transported the one officer.

00:24:05.049 --> 00:24:08.289
But, you know, that was in the volleys. You know,

00:24:08.349 --> 00:24:12.109
I wasn't paid FDNY yet. So that was an interesting

00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:16.089
call. You know, what I say, hangings and stabbings

00:24:16.089 --> 00:24:18.470
and shootings. I mean, I've seen enough, you

00:24:18.470 --> 00:24:21.230
know, babies. You know, it's a sight you'll never

00:24:21.230 --> 00:24:23.980
forget. And I prefer not to see it again. I've

00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:25.799
seen it a few times and I'm not happy with myself.

00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:33.420
What about 9 -11? You're working as an electrician.

00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:35.440
You're volunteering as a firefighter. You're

00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.160
on the list now. What was that day like for you?

00:24:40.339 --> 00:24:44.079
My mom called me and said, are you watching the

00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:46.579
news? I'm like, no, I'm sleeping. And she's like,

00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:49.039
the World Trade Center is on fire. When I turned

00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.680
on the TV, I could not believe what I was seeing.

00:24:52.459 --> 00:24:55.059
I got dressed and went right to the volley firehouse.

00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:58.019
And I sat in that firehouse for 24 hours. I could

00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:00.519
not believe it. I was even in touch with one

00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:05.960
person down there. And I heard people that I

00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:09.059
knew that were missing. And I was just like,

00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:12.519
I just can't believe that. Broke my heart. And

00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:17.140
just like everybody else's, I actually wound

00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:20.289
up going back to New York City from... the Fairport,

00:25:20.369 --> 00:25:24.710
New York area, October of 2001. And it was then

00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:26.930
I joined the West Hamilton Beach Volunteer Fire

00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:29.549
Department, one of the 10 volunteer fire departments

00:25:29.549 --> 00:25:32.230
that exist in New York City. I think there's

00:25:32.230 --> 00:25:36.009
eight now, maybe nine, but yeah, I joined that

00:25:36.009 --> 00:25:37.950
department while I was waiting, you know, but

00:25:37.950 --> 00:25:41.789
I've never forgotten 9 -11, you know, and that's

00:25:41.789 --> 00:25:43.869
another reason why I do all of this stuff that

00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:47.430
I'm doing right now. is to just make sure that

00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:49.309
nobody forgets what happened that day you know

00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:51.289
because i i've traveled the country and i could

00:25:51.289 --> 00:25:54.170
tell you i've definitely seen uh some people

00:25:54.170 --> 00:25:57.829
forget the phrase that comes up a lot and i love

00:25:57.829 --> 00:25:59.369
it because i think it's exactly what's needed

00:25:59.369 --> 00:26:03.230
now more than ever is i miss 9 12 you know the

00:26:03.230 --> 00:26:05.410
community when everyone's coming together greatest

00:26:05.410 --> 00:26:07.829
day in the world so talk to me about that through

00:26:07.829 --> 00:26:11.710
your eyes so um that's something that i use very

00:26:11.710 --> 00:26:15.789
often I do get invited to schools and I do all

00:26:15.789 --> 00:26:18.269
of this stuff for free because this is actually

00:26:18.269 --> 00:26:22.390
my PTSD therapy. You know, I go in there and

00:26:22.390 --> 00:26:24.589
I tell all of the next generation, all the young

00:26:24.589 --> 00:26:27.490
kids why 9 -12 was so important because people

00:26:27.490 --> 00:26:30.289
from all over the world went to New York. Everybody

00:26:30.289 --> 00:26:33.069
did something. You know, people sent cards, you

00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:35.609
know, people sent clothes. You know, they were

00:26:35.609 --> 00:26:37.809
there for everybody in New York City after 9

00:26:37.809 --> 00:26:39.509
-11. And that's something that's unbelievable.

00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:43.549
I haven't seen or experienced a display of that

00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:49.930
magnitude since 2001. I wish that would happen

00:26:49.930 --> 00:26:53.490
every day. And I try to, you know, preach it,

00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:58.190
so to speak, you know. But 9 -12 was a very,

00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:02.029
very important day. And ironically, that was

00:27:02.029 --> 00:27:05.269
the day that I got sworn into the FDNY was 9

00:27:05.269 --> 00:27:10.039
-12 -2004. You know, so that could be. a little

00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:13.940
sign that, yeah, I'm going to be, you know, paying

00:27:13.940 --> 00:27:16.359
it forward to people and helping people, you

00:27:16.359 --> 00:27:18.720
know, in the future. You know, now I realize

00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:20.680
it, but then, you know what I mean? I didn't

00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.220
know the significance of that. Well, I remember

00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:25.220
seeing, you know, all, let's just take, you know,

00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.640
of course, people of all backgrounds, colors,

00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.259
creeds, but even like the places of worship from

00:27:30.259 --> 00:27:32.420
all the religions were all coming together. And

00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:35.339
if you look at the documentaries on the Grenfell

00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:38.539
fire, the one we had in London, same thing. People

00:27:38.539 --> 00:27:40.759
that naturally the government entities were almost

00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:42.480
nowhere to be seen. And it was all the local

00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:45.299
communities and faiths that were coming together

00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:49.079
to take care of people there as well. Yeah. Why

00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:54.200
do you think that we lost that so quickly? I

00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:57.680
wish you just asked a million dollar question,

00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:02.339
bro. I don't know what happened. I don't know

00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:06.279
where it went wrong. I don't know. I know it's.

00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:10.980
It's very, it's stressful, especially for people

00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:15.500
in our line of work. You know, I've seen things

00:28:15.500 --> 00:28:18.180
online that, you know, it begs the question,

00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:22.420
are brothers and sisters dealing with this shenanigans

00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:24.220
now? You know, they're going to help a person

00:28:24.220 --> 00:28:27.220
of this religious faith and there's another religious

00:28:27.220 --> 00:28:29.220
faith that doesn't like that religion and they're

00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:30.740
going to start standing there and cause a drama.

00:28:30.740 --> 00:28:32.599
Now we're going to have airmail coming off of

00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:37.710
balconies and it's like, you know. And it's so,

00:28:37.829 --> 00:28:42.730
it's insane. It's insane. It is. I mean, the

00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:45.549
thing is also it spans both sides of the political

00:28:45.549 --> 00:28:47.710
aisle. So it's not one or the other. It's something

00:28:47.710 --> 00:28:51.569
that I try and, you know, occasionally be very

00:28:51.569 --> 00:28:53.690
vocal about without making it the whole platform.

00:28:53.809 --> 00:28:56.490
But it's like, look, there's us. There's the

00:28:56.490 --> 00:28:58.529
United States of America in this case, or United

00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:00.410
Kingdom or Australia or New Zealand or France

00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:01.890
or Portugal, wherever you're listening to this

00:29:01.890 --> 00:29:05.980
from. And you are the asset. You are that nation.

00:29:06.140 --> 00:29:10.160
And every time it's cleaved, it's so heartbreaking

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.279
because what do we do naturally when there's

00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:15.059
something like a 9 -11? We come together. That's

00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:19.019
who we actually are. And it kills me watching

00:29:19.019 --> 00:29:22.660
that slow, kind of insidious division again that

00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:25.839
we're seeing over and over and over when I know

00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:28.420
that American people are good people. They really

00:29:28.420 --> 00:29:30.119
are. The British, the Australians, everyone.

00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:33.920
Inherently, I believe people are good. But the

00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.839
more stressed and, you know, sleep deprived and

00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.119
financially strained we become, the easier it

00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.019
is to kind of start splitting everyone together

00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:46.680
and then disassociating with the humanity that

00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:50.640
we actually saw after, for example, 9 -11. Yeah,

00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:52.740
I wish I wish we can go to bed tonight, wake

00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.599
up tomorrow and everybody stop their nonsense.

00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.859
You know, I think that would be awesome. I can

00:29:57.859 --> 00:30:00.589
tell you personally, I mean. You know, it's a

00:30:00.589 --> 00:30:02.269
stress level. It's just like, all right, well,

00:30:02.450 --> 00:30:04.849
you know, what's going on? I'm at that point

00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:06.009
that I'm wondering, what are we going to do in

00:30:06.009 --> 00:30:07.430
the next 10 years? You know, what's the plan?

00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:09.869
But I see all of this craziness happening. Like,

00:30:09.970 --> 00:30:12.190
do I want to stay here? You know, do I want to

00:30:12.190 --> 00:30:14.269
stay in New York anymore? You know, I'm not going

00:30:14.269 --> 00:30:16.210
out to the West Coast. Forget about that. I mean,

00:30:16.230 --> 00:30:18.789
I feel California is done. It's just as bad as

00:30:18.789 --> 00:30:20.950
New York. You know, I want to go somewhere and

00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:22.670
have to worry about hurricanes and tornadoes

00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:26.990
and all of that business. But, you know, I don't

00:30:26.990 --> 00:30:32.119
know. I just I wish people would. you know, just

00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.000
stop it and just get back together. I think everybody's

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.500
mental health would definitely improve. I think

00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:39.859
everybody's losing their marbles, to be honest

00:30:39.859 --> 00:30:42.880
with you. Yeah. I mean, I think, honestly, when

00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:45.740
I see a lot of the, you know, like you said,

00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:47.920
the front -facing stuff that we're all seeing

00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:49.579
at the moment, it just screams mental health

00:30:49.579 --> 00:30:52.380
crisis to me. It really does. Unaddressed trauma

00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:55.500
creates these kind of reactions to where, you

00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:57.539
know, I mean, I think COVID was the perfect example.

00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:00.700
The fact that families and friendships were divided

00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:03.140
over whether you use a mask or not when the middle

00:31:03.140 --> 00:31:04.960
ground was, hey, let's make people healthier.

00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:06.960
And then it was like, no, we don't want to hear

00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.039
that. It's just, you know, pick a pick a World

00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.579
War One, you know, trench and stick to it left

00:31:11.579 --> 00:31:14.299
or right. It just it blew me away. But it really

00:31:14.299 --> 00:31:18.160
was. It showed how how much in crisis I think

00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.460
a lot of people in this country actually are.

00:31:21.410 --> 00:31:23.890
Yeah, I caught a lot of a lot of drama because

00:31:23.890 --> 00:31:25.650
of that, because, you know, it got to a certain

00:31:25.650 --> 00:31:27.130
point like, all right, enough is enough. You're

00:31:27.130 --> 00:31:28.690
outside, you're on a boat, you're wearing a mask.

00:31:28.789 --> 00:31:31.470
Stop it. Just stop. You know, the idea is you

00:31:31.470 --> 00:31:33.650
need to get some fresh air, too. You know, I

00:31:33.650 --> 00:31:37.009
never got it. And, you know, thank goodness.

00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:40.150
But I know people that did get it, but it definitely

00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:43.130
divided families. I mean, it caused drama with

00:31:43.130 --> 00:31:45.150
my family, you know, and that was things that

00:31:45.150 --> 00:31:48.210
didn't need to be going on at that point. You

00:31:48.210 --> 00:31:53.650
know what I mean? But yeah, the political crisis

00:31:53.650 --> 00:31:56.150
in the country right now, it's just it's insane.

00:31:56.269 --> 00:31:57.710
I had to go off Facebook because I don't want

00:31:57.710 --> 00:32:00.769
to see any more drama. You know, God forbid I

00:32:00.769 --> 00:32:03.190
say something you don't agree with. And I'm like

00:32:03.190 --> 00:32:05.170
the worst, most horrible person in the world.

00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:07.450
I'm like, OK, I mean, I sleep OK at night for

00:32:07.450 --> 00:32:09.690
the most part. But sorry, your feelings are hurt.

00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:12.390
Yeah. Well, the most sense that I can tell you

00:32:12.390 --> 00:32:14.329
now is the common sense in the middle. Hands

00:32:14.329 --> 00:32:17.140
down. If you're not extreme left or extreme right,

00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:19.900
you are the most hated group at the moment. But

00:32:19.900 --> 00:32:22.039
I remember just thinking about it with COVID

00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.839
early on. And I was talking, you know, opposing

00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.259
the kind of vaccine mandates that were taking

00:32:28.259 --> 00:32:30.319
first responder jobs that were out there with

00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.380
no PPE for the longest time. And now all of a

00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:34.640
sudden they're being called murderers. I was,

00:32:34.660 --> 00:32:37.599
you know, bringing people on and, you know, advocating

00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.410
for a push against the mandates. Then I was getting

00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:46.029
pushback from one group saying, you know, COVID's

00:32:46.029 --> 00:32:47.690
killing all these people. And my whole thing

00:32:47.690 --> 00:32:50.670
was, no, obesity, smoking, these other underlying

00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:52.609
issues are actually what's killing most of these

00:32:52.609 --> 00:32:55.029
people. So let's get people healthier while we're

00:32:55.029 --> 00:32:57.329
working through this. So anyway, every single

00:32:57.329 --> 00:32:59.650
death is attributed to COVID. And then the other

00:32:59.650 --> 00:33:01.349
side, you know, obviously was happy because we're

00:33:01.349 --> 00:33:03.710
talking about opposing mandates. Well, then get

00:33:03.710 --> 00:33:06.690
a bit further. Now, all of a sudden, every death

00:33:06.690 --> 00:33:08.880
is being attributed to the vaccine. So now the

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.799
right, the other side is now losing their mind

00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.480
and every, you know, so it's just like, Oh my

00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.079
God. And rather than either of them saying, you

00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.259
know what, 70 % of the country is overweight

00:33:17.259 --> 00:33:20.259
or obese. Maybe just, maybe we need to do something

00:33:20.259 --> 00:33:22.660
about that. And that is the main reason why we're

00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:25.220
losing so many people that other countries aren't,

00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:28.220
but all you got was this extremism. And you know,

00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.680
when, when both sides were blaming COVID or the

00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.539
vaccine on deaths that were clearly from. obesity

00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.460
and copd you're just standing in the middle going

00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:38.519
just shaking your head like what the fuck yeah

00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:41.980
we fought over toilet paper toilet paper out

00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:43.539
of everything that we could have needed from

00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:45.819
the grocery store we fought over toilet paper

00:33:45.819 --> 00:33:51.569
yeah insane Absolutely insane. It was. A country

00:33:51.569 --> 00:33:53.890
has lost its mind. Well, the sad thing as well,

00:33:53.930 --> 00:33:55.809
not to kind of stay down this rabbit hole too

00:33:55.809 --> 00:33:58.789
deep, but then when we kind of all emerged as

00:33:58.789 --> 00:34:00.509
a country, I mean, Florida came out early and

00:34:00.509 --> 00:34:02.490
I'm so glad I was in that state during that time

00:34:02.490 --> 00:34:05.049
because credit to DeSantis, he's done some things

00:34:05.049 --> 00:34:07.410
I don't agree with, but the way that he just

00:34:07.410 --> 00:34:10.409
slowly, instrumentally opened up the faucet again,

00:34:10.650 --> 00:34:12.889
you know, and we have a lot of elderly people

00:34:12.889 --> 00:34:16.010
and we didn't have a super high death toll. But

00:34:16.010 --> 00:34:19.289
at the end, no one wanted to revisit them. No

00:34:19.289 --> 00:34:21.050
one wanted to look back and go, okay, what did

00:34:21.050 --> 00:34:23.650
we do right? What did we do wrong? What can we

00:34:23.650 --> 00:34:25.449
change if we get another virus sweep through?

00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:27.670
And that was the biggest disgusting thing. That's

00:34:27.670 --> 00:34:30.030
why I like to talk about this. It's because there

00:34:30.030 --> 00:34:32.170
were lessons that were learned that we could

00:34:32.170 --> 00:34:34.929
actually improve. And for example, the obesity

00:34:34.929 --> 00:34:37.989
crisis, that God forbid we have a virus sweep

00:34:37.989 --> 00:34:40.110
through again, we'll have a healthier nation.

00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:41.889
But there was none of that. They don't want to

00:34:41.889 --> 00:34:43.530
talk about it. They don't want to reflect on

00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:45.750
it. We just want to move on. And that's the biggest

00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:48.469
insult to all the people that did die. is to

00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:51.010
not change something so that it doesn't happen

00:34:51.010 --> 00:34:54.789
again. Yeah, I have my own theories on it, but

00:34:54.789 --> 00:34:56.150
that's a rabbit hole we don't want to go down

00:34:56.150 --> 00:34:59.869
today. All right. Well, moving forward to FDNY,

00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:04.989
September 12th, 2004. Talk to me about your onboard

00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:12.320
experience at The Rock. Being screamed at the

00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.780
entire eight hours on the first day just to start

00:35:14.780 --> 00:35:18.679
off with, that was interesting. It begged the

00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:20.500
question, what the hell did I just get myself

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:27.420
into? It was probably one of the most difficult,

00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:33.159
stressful, enjoyable, fun, memory -filled experiences

00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:37.570
of my life. We went through September to December.

00:35:37.650 --> 00:35:39.909
It was only three months, and the weather was

00:35:39.909 --> 00:35:42.849
not all that bad. A lot of learning, a lot of

00:35:42.849 --> 00:35:47.289
things, a lot of roll -ups on the shoulder. You

00:35:47.289 --> 00:35:48.929
know, when you don't answer a question right,

00:35:49.090 --> 00:35:50.969
you've got to carry a two -and -a -half on your

00:35:50.969 --> 00:35:52.409
shoulder. If you get another question wrong,

00:35:52.550 --> 00:35:55.389
that's two of them. And if the squad gets something

00:35:55.389 --> 00:35:57.030
wrong, then everybody's going to be carrying

00:35:57.030 --> 00:35:59.650
roll -ups. And I think one day we had all of

00:35:59.650 --> 00:36:01.510
our bags in our spots, had to go bring our roll

00:36:01.510 --> 00:36:03.269
-ups, drop them, run back, grab our bags, and

00:36:03.269 --> 00:36:05.809
go back. Yeah, it was a long day. I'm pretty

00:36:05.809 --> 00:36:07.329
sure I had something to do with that answer,

00:36:07.449 --> 00:36:10.789
but, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was definitely

00:36:10.789 --> 00:36:12.710
something. And I, I learned a lot in there too.

00:36:12.849 --> 00:36:14.849
And I can tell, I mean, I can close my eyes and

00:36:14.849 --> 00:36:16.610
think about, you know, every day that we were

00:36:16.610 --> 00:36:19.710
there today, you know, um, I got out of there.

00:36:19.750 --> 00:36:21.230
I was in the best shape of my life. You know,

00:36:21.309 --> 00:36:23.750
I was just, you know, I'm going to be a fireman

00:36:23.750 --> 00:36:27.489
one day, you know, and, uh, they put me in a

00:36:27.489 --> 00:36:30.010
10 engine and, uh, one of the guys in my class,

00:36:30.010 --> 00:36:33.170
Nicky Castellano, he went to 10 trucks. So, you

00:36:33.170 --> 00:36:35.619
know, we're. Brand new, young. It's December.

00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:39.139
You know, we go there and, you know, they took

00:36:39.139 --> 00:36:41.219
a picture of us. But, you know, took a picture

00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:43.239
of us first. And then they dumped flour on us

00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:45.780
and dumped a buck of water on us each. And then

00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:47.619
there was a class three. We got to jump on the

00:36:47.619 --> 00:36:49.920
rig and take the run in with them. And, you know,

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.119
we just started out our careers. It was interesting

00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:57.820
to say the least. I still remember the crew from

00:36:57.820 --> 00:37:02.349
my first call I went on. As a probie, it was

00:37:02.349 --> 00:37:06.130
Tony Kaczynski was driving the rig. Lieutenant

00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:09.389
Procala was the boss. Mike Giacoppo was the nozzle.

00:37:09.690 --> 00:37:12.110
I was the backup, and Timmy Doherty was the control.

00:37:12.489 --> 00:37:15.989
It was just a class three. I think everybody

00:37:15.989 --> 00:37:18.630
remembers their first call, and that was it for

00:37:18.630 --> 00:37:22.010
me. But it was great. I mean, it was a tough

00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:24.230
firehouse to work in. Ten houses right across

00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:27.239
the street from the Trade Center. You know, there

00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:29.860
were some guys there from 9 -11, and it was 2004.

00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:33.420
You know, it was a few years later. And, you

00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:37.139
know, we had 9 -11 burned into our hearts and

00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:42.460
souls at that probie school. And, you know, that

00:37:42.460 --> 00:37:45.500
was a hard house to work in. I couldn't imagine

00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:51.019
working 9 -11 and being a fireman in 2001. Being

00:37:51.019 --> 00:37:53.219
on that, I couldn't imagine that. And here these

00:37:53.219 --> 00:37:55.800
guys are here. So I look at them like these guys

00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:57.960
are like my freaking heroes. You know, these

00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:00.480
guys are still working in this firehouse. You

00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.760
know, and then three months later, we get another

00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.719
two probies in, three months, another two, three

00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.400
months, another two. You know, we had a lot of

00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:11.519
guys come in, you know, after I got in there

00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:15.530
in 2004. And we all got along and had a great

00:38:15.530 --> 00:38:18.530
time. It was just a great house. You know, we

00:38:18.530 --> 00:38:21.550
had the boys night out and, you know, right behind

00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:23.530
the firehouse is O 'Hara's. So, you know, get

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:25.329
out of work and you go behind the firehouse,

00:38:25.409 --> 00:38:28.630
you know, go out there, hang out. But I mean,

00:38:28.650 --> 00:38:30.389
I learned some things, too. I had some interesting

00:38:30.389 --> 00:38:35.710
calls there. We had a on Black Sunday. We had

00:38:35.710 --> 00:38:38.989
a fire in the Chamber Street subway. So those

00:38:38.989 --> 00:38:41.110
fires down there on those platforms, they get

00:38:41.110 --> 00:38:43.369
pretty interesting. So a couple of bottles of

00:38:43.369 --> 00:38:47.510
air later, you know, I had a great time in that

00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:51.090
firehouse. I forget which guest it was, but someone

00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:54.650
who was on not too long ago was literally the

00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:58.230
first recruit class after 9 -11, if I'm remembering

00:38:58.230 --> 00:39:01.289
that right. So there was a very kind of palpable

00:39:01.289 --> 00:39:04.469
replacement feel to it as the military gave.

00:39:05.420 --> 00:39:07.760
Now you're talking about three years later. What

00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:09.900
was that sense by that point? And was it kind

00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:15.519
of back to normal or was there still that almost

00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.480
that uneasy feeling of knowing that you're still

00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.820
replacing some of the people they'd lost in that

00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:25.340
day? You know, for a few months that I was there,

00:39:25.420 --> 00:39:28.579
we were able to actually park on the site itself

00:39:28.579 --> 00:39:30.860
because there's really no parking down there,

00:39:30.940 --> 00:39:34.670
you know. That was very eerie. parking there

00:39:34.670 --> 00:39:39.869
and stuff um and just being there yeah it it

00:39:39.869 --> 00:39:43.570
did it did feel like we were just replacements

00:39:43.570 --> 00:39:49.469
you know um and and sadly some of the members

00:39:49.469 --> 00:39:52.110
that did die in 9 -11 they weren't even working

00:39:52.110 --> 00:39:54.150
in 10 house that day they would they were on

00:39:54.150 --> 00:39:55.969
their details and working in different boroughs

00:39:55.969 --> 00:39:58.809
you know and that's what's what's crazy too but

00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:01.900
You know, one thing that I had burned into my

00:40:01.900 --> 00:40:05.760
head there is the utmost respect for the house,

00:40:05.860 --> 00:40:08.480
the utmost respect for the members, the utmost

00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:13.300
respect for the families of those that died from

00:40:13.300 --> 00:40:19.440
1010. And, you know, just the respect. Make sure

00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:22.079
you show respect to the people that visit. You

00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.139
know, people travel from around the world. They

00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:26.659
save for years to go to New York City and they

00:40:26.659 --> 00:40:29.269
want to go down to the Trade Center. You know,

00:40:29.269 --> 00:40:31.389
you have to be patient with them, too. And there

00:40:31.389 --> 00:40:33.090
are times some of them are pretty damn annoying.

00:40:33.230 --> 00:40:34.909
I'm not going to lie. I remember closing the

00:40:34.909 --> 00:40:37.550
door one day. You only lost five. You know, you

00:40:37.550 --> 00:40:38.849
have a good day. And I just closed the doors.

00:40:38.949 --> 00:40:41.610
Like, that's all you had to say. Thank God you

00:40:41.610 --> 00:40:44.090
said it to me, not to one of the guys that survived

00:40:44.090 --> 00:40:47.050
9 -11 that's working today. You know what I mean?

00:40:48.889 --> 00:40:51.150
But, yeah, it did feel like that. And it felt

00:40:51.150 --> 00:40:56.329
like we were replacements. But it wasn't a very

00:40:56.329 --> 00:40:59.219
long period of time, you know. Now it's just

00:40:59.219 --> 00:41:01.400
like, we got to learn this job. You know, we

00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.079
got to, we got to learn and learn and be fine.

00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.940
And, and, you know, hating climbing stairs. I

00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:09.420
hated stairs. I don't know anybody in Manhattan

00:41:09.420 --> 00:41:11.980
that doesn't hate stairs. Seven is heaven. Eight

00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:15.400
is great. This has been one of the things with

00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.519
fitness standards in the fire service that I've

00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:19.239
really struggled with. It's been just such a

00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:22.139
push. And in Florida, it's interesting. It's

00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:24.920
such a flat state that you don't even get. If

00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:27.300
you work in San Francisco, maybe you don't need

00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:30.659
to run stairs that much if you commute into work

00:41:30.659 --> 00:41:33.880
and all your walks are up these steep roads that

00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:36.179
they have there. Here, ours are completely flat.

00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:39.139
But the last place I worked next to my station

00:41:39.139 --> 00:41:42.980
was a 30 -story hotel. And so, you know, with

00:41:42.980 --> 00:41:44.639
a high rise strip, there's 100 pounds of gear,

00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:48.079
30 floors up, and then you go to work. And I

00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:50.079
never understood why there was such an opposition

00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:53.079
to fitness standards, because when you have to

00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:54.860
do that, and if you're in Manhattan, you're constantly

00:41:54.860 --> 00:41:56.739
climbing from alarms and those kind of things,

00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:59.579
and you don't need to have PT. But that's not

00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:01.400
the case in Florida. A lot of us, you know, we're

00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:02.920
not going up and down these buildings all the

00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:06.579
time. Um, but the exertion that it takes to climb,

00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:09.460
you know, 20, 30 floors with a hundred pounds

00:42:09.460 --> 00:42:12.960
of gear before you even then go to work, it blows

00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:16.480
my mind that so many places oppose a standard

00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:18.400
because I mean, you don't have to be a genius

00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.760
to figure out if you're carrying 50, a hundred

00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.280
pounds of extra weight, body fat, and your cardiovascular

00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:27.199
system is completely untrained. You're not going

00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:29.019
to make it up there point. You're just not. And

00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:30.619
you're going to become a liability that we have

00:42:30.619 --> 00:42:36.590
to then bring down. Yeah. Yeah, for the most

00:42:36.590 --> 00:42:39.389
part, these guys are in the gym all the time.

00:42:40.230 --> 00:42:43.829
You know, every firehouse has a gym. There's

00:42:43.829 --> 00:42:46.110
jugs of water all over the place. You know, these

00:42:46.110 --> 00:42:47.929
guys are doing what they got to do. For the most

00:42:47.929 --> 00:42:49.869
part, everybody is. And then there's a small

00:42:49.869 --> 00:42:52.309
amount of people that just don't do it. You know,

00:42:52.309 --> 00:42:54.469
but I mean, that's their choice. You know, but

00:42:54.469 --> 00:42:56.889
the job does do the yearly medicals and stuff

00:42:56.889 --> 00:42:58.110
like that. And if you don't know where you're

00:42:58.110 --> 00:42:59.650
supposed to be, they'll take you out of the firehouse

00:42:59.650 --> 00:43:01.869
and put you on light duty. They'll send you back

00:43:01.869 --> 00:43:05.309
to the academy, you know. Um, but no, that's,

00:43:05.309 --> 00:43:06.730
that was, it was tough working in Manhattan.

00:43:06.889 --> 00:43:09.730
I mean, you know, as a control fireman, you got

00:43:09.730 --> 00:43:11.630
two and a half inch roll up and you have the

00:43:11.630 --> 00:43:14.130
standpipe kit and then you've got your gear and

00:43:14.130 --> 00:43:17.010
then you've got your bottle, you know? So that's

00:43:17.010 --> 00:43:19.389
a lot of extra weight, you know, nozzle guys

00:43:19.389 --> 00:43:22.150
just carrying their length backups, carrying

00:43:22.150 --> 00:43:23.650
theirs. If there's a door, they're carrying theirs,

00:43:23.829 --> 00:43:28.510
you know? Um, but stairs do suck and the time

00:43:28.510 --> 00:43:32.369
of the year sucks too. But there wasn't really

00:43:32.369 --> 00:43:35.570
a whole lot of fires down there. It wasn't like

00:43:35.570 --> 00:43:39.170
watching Rescue Me. You know, these guys are

00:43:39.170 --> 00:43:41.050
going, you know, granted they were in the Bronx

00:43:41.050 --> 00:43:42.969
or wherever they were. I mean, most of the time

00:43:42.969 --> 00:43:46.190
they were in Long Island City. But, you know,

00:43:46.190 --> 00:43:47.789
there wasn't a whole lot of fires down there.

00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:54.949
How was Rescue Me received by FDNY? I'll be honest.

00:43:55.030 --> 00:43:57.809
I thought it was hilarious. The first season

00:43:57.809 --> 00:44:00.400
or two. I just thought it was just a comedy.

00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:05.860
I didn't see that in the firehouses that I worked

00:44:05.860 --> 00:44:08.579
in. I mean, shenanigans, but what goes on in

00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:10.900
a firehouse stays in a firehouse, too. You know,

00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.900
I think a lot of that was made for TV. And if

00:44:12.900 --> 00:44:15.639
it wasn't, then that's interesting. And it definitely

00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:18.059
I didn't see that where I was. Yeah, I've never

00:44:18.059 --> 00:44:19.739
had sex in the middle of a structure fire, for

00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:24.079
example, I gotta say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've

00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:26.519
never gone to work and then, you know, left and

00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:28.860
then came back like three hours later. And you

00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:30.139
know, everything was fine. Yeah, that's kind

00:44:30.139 --> 00:44:34.039
of like AWOL. That's like you're losing pay.

00:44:35.139 --> 00:44:38.309
Absolutely. Well, prior to the Deutsche Bank

00:44:38.309 --> 00:44:41.090
fire, what were some of the significant fires

00:44:41.090 --> 00:44:48.469
or calls that you did go to? Well, there were

00:44:48.469 --> 00:44:53.329
some rescues. Staten Island Ferry, they had one

00:44:53.329 --> 00:44:56.150
of the workers fell. That was an interesting

00:44:56.150 --> 00:45:00.789
rescue getting him out of there. I was CFRD for

00:45:00.789 --> 00:45:03.269
that. And a couple of the guys from Rescue One

00:45:03.269 --> 00:45:05.409
were volunteer firefighters as well in Freeport,

00:45:05.409 --> 00:45:07.269
Long Island. That's the department that I joined

00:45:07.269 --> 00:45:10.130
when I first started with the fire service. So

00:45:10.130 --> 00:45:12.409
they knew me and I got razzed by the guys back

00:45:12.409 --> 00:45:14.150
there. I was like, how do you know those guys?

00:45:14.329 --> 00:45:25.869
Oh, the volley days. You know, I guess I had

00:45:25.869 --> 00:45:29.900
some interesting calls after Deutsche Bank. Before

00:45:29.900 --> 00:45:33.420
that, I did get one EMS save, which is really

00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:35.940
the only medal that I wear on my uniform. It

00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:37.360
was right on the corner of the firehouse, Liberty

00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.980
and Church. And I just walked in the firehouse

00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:42.239
and the run came in and I relieved the guy quick.

00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:46.920
We got the guy back and they gave us a medal

00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.880
and a second chance brunch, which is pretty cool.

00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:51.659
But what was really wild about it is, is I'm

00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:54.199
looking through that pamphlet and I see a name,

00:45:54.219 --> 00:45:56.159
Robert Arcel. And I look at the address and that

00:45:56.159 --> 00:45:58.519
was actually the address of my father's building.

00:45:58.909 --> 00:46:01.730
on the Upper West Side. So I call my mom up.

00:46:01.789 --> 00:46:04.150
I was like, Mom, you know, is Bob Arcella still

00:46:04.150 --> 00:46:06.130
alive? She was like, yeah, I think so. I was

00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:08.769
like, you know, it looks like he, you know, he

00:46:08.769 --> 00:46:10.409
died and they got him back. You know, I said,

00:46:10.429 --> 00:46:12.989
I'll call you later. So I tell the boss, and

00:46:12.989 --> 00:46:14.929
the boss was like, yeah, go walk around. I'm

00:46:14.929 --> 00:46:17.429
walking around. I see the name tags, and I come

00:46:17.429 --> 00:46:19.090
back. He's like, did you find him? I said, nah.

00:46:19.349 --> 00:46:21.530
He goes, look behind you. And there he is behind.

00:46:21.610 --> 00:46:24.210
So I go over. I said, excuse me, are you Robert

00:46:24.210 --> 00:46:27.739
Arcella? He goes, I am. I said. Bob, I'm solid.

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.019
Did you know Mickey Sands? He goes, Mickey was

00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:32.679
a really good friend of mine. I said, I'm Jimmy.

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:36.880
And we just burst into tears and held each other.

00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:39.920
When I was in grammar school, I did a report

00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:43.500
on him. He's a Vietnam vet. I did the report

00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:46.159
about him. He tried to give me his medals. His

00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:48.769
son had Down syndrome. And my father was like,

00:46:48.849 --> 00:46:50.309
you know, you can't take those. You have to give

00:46:50.309 --> 00:46:52.829
them back. You know, that's not for you. I said,

00:46:52.889 --> 00:46:54.969
no, I understand. He was trying to be a good

00:46:54.969 --> 00:46:59.369
gesture. But I think it's insane that where I

00:46:59.369 --> 00:47:03.309
worked in Manhattan, my father's previous law

00:47:03.309 --> 00:47:06.909
firm building was like two blocks away. We came

00:47:06.909 --> 00:47:09.449
in and out of Manhattan into the Trade Center

00:47:09.449 --> 00:47:13.309
from the subway growing up our whole lives, you

00:47:13.309 --> 00:47:14.829
know, on Saturdays. Me and my brother and sister

00:47:14.829 --> 00:47:18.260
would go to work with dad. And I thought it was

00:47:18.260 --> 00:47:21.280
insane that this is where him and my mom met.

00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:24.659
My sister, my brother, and my uncle have all

00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:28.360
worked in that building. This is a salesman that

00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.139
my dad was friends with who died in front of

00:47:31.139 --> 00:47:33.059
the building. My dad died in 1995. I thought

00:47:33.059 --> 00:47:35.139
it was wild. So I wear that one medal and that's

00:47:35.139 --> 00:47:37.639
it. I don't need to wear anything else. You know,

00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:41.960
but yeah, that was probably one of the most memorable

00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:46.230
calls that I had. i mean i don't really talk

00:47:46.230 --> 00:47:48.690
about the subways you know the train uh people

00:47:48.690 --> 00:47:50.230
run over by trains and stuff like that it's no

00:47:50.230 --> 00:47:52.889
reason for it you know they seem to be happening

00:47:52.889 --> 00:47:56.469
all the time now so yeah yeah it's so sad i think

00:47:56.469 --> 00:47:58.610
most people don't realize how frequent that is

00:47:58.610 --> 00:48:00.630
but obviously fdmy when they come on here it

00:48:00.630 --> 00:48:02.889
seems to be a pretty frequent occurrence which

00:48:02.889 --> 00:48:05.309
again is tying into this conversation of mental

00:48:05.309 --> 00:48:07.250
health i mean we talk about how easily people

00:48:07.250 --> 00:48:10.030
are divided we talk about the the suicides both

00:48:10.030 --> 00:48:12.510
in and out of uniform i mean it really is rampant

00:48:12.510 --> 00:48:15.849
and when you think about humans inherently want

00:48:15.849 --> 00:48:18.429
to survive reproduce protect their children you

00:48:18.429 --> 00:48:21.530
know carry on their bloodline it it goes against

00:48:21.530 --> 00:48:24.550
you know the biology of being a human being really

00:48:24.550 --> 00:48:30.409
which is why it's such a crisis so all right

00:48:30.409 --> 00:48:34.750
well then let's go to august 8th 2007 what was

00:48:34.750 --> 00:48:36.869
the beginning of that shift like for you and

00:48:36.869 --> 00:48:38.530
then kind of walk me through that horrendous

00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:43.420
day august 18th Oh, excuse me. I wrote that down.

00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.360
I wrote that down wrong. My apologies. No worries.

00:48:46.500 --> 00:48:50.179
It's a day that I, yeah, August 18, 2007 at 3

00:48:50.179 --> 00:48:53.059
.39 in the afternoon. I just have that. It's

00:48:53.059 --> 00:48:57.039
almost, it's like tattooed in my soul. You know,

00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.639
I just got off of medical leave. I had injured

00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.519
my back previously in the summer at a little

00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:08.840
diesel fire spill around the corner. You know,

00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:13.159
I got to work that day. We had Kenny Ruane, who

00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:16.320
is a senior guy. We were very fortunate. He was

00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.579
working in our firehouse. Dave Cirillo, he was

00:49:19.579 --> 00:49:22.440
one or two years, I think. I don't remember the

00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:26.039
dates. And then me, and then we had a covering

00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:29.400
boss, and we had a chauffeur from Six Engines.

00:49:29.500 --> 00:49:31.840
So, I mean, the day started out like every other

00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:33.980
day. You check the rig. There's something wrong

00:49:33.980 --> 00:49:35.920
with the rig, so we had to strip our stuff off.

00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:38.500
bring it up to 20 truck and get a spare from

00:49:38.500 --> 00:49:42.960
them and go back to our firehouse. We didn't

00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.960
do a multi -unit drill. Manhattan does multi

00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.940
-unit drills on Sundays. So Saturday was our

00:49:49.940 --> 00:49:52.179
clean the firehouse day. So we got back, we cleaned

00:49:52.179 --> 00:49:54.500
the firehouse and, you know, had the meal and

00:49:54.500 --> 00:50:00.059
stuff. And I had the watch. So the three by,

00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.519
so the watches are split three hours. You know,

00:50:02.539 --> 00:50:05.460
I had 12 to three. I'm sorry, I had three to

00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:08.480
six. So I'm out there and some firefighters from

00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:10.739
Rochester, New York, were down for a 9 -11 motorcycle

00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:13.840
ride. I had the doors open, the windows open,

00:50:14.059 --> 00:50:17.400
you know, but it was a nice day out. And you

00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:19.619
can hear the voice alarm outside the firehouse.

00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:21.860
So I'm talking to these guys in the street. I

00:50:21.860 --> 00:50:25.500
have my back to Deutsche Bank building and we're

00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:29.159
chatting it up. And I get somebody come over

00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:31.119
and said, the building's on fire. And I look

00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:33.800
up, I'm like, there's smoke coming out. from

00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:36.360
the upper floor. So I run back inside. As I get

00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:40.119
back in over the voice alarm, they asked us if

00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:41.940
we got the run. I said, computer's down. We got

00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:44.940
the run. And I'm telling the companies we have

00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:49.900
a fire next door. So they send it out. We get

00:50:49.900 --> 00:50:52.559
on the rig and everything. And at that time,

00:50:52.619 --> 00:50:54.099
you know, they're starting to do work in the

00:50:54.099 --> 00:50:56.500
Trade Center site. So when we left quarters,

00:50:56.619 --> 00:50:58.940
the engine was able to take the left out and

00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:03.619
then make a left down Greenwich Street. The truck

00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:05.900
couldn't get out and make the left because of

00:51:05.900 --> 00:51:08.800
the wall. So they had to go out and make a right,

00:51:08.900 --> 00:51:12.480
go up to church the wrong way and come back down

00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.800
so they can make the turn. So we're coming around

00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:17.679
the corner. I look out the window and there's

00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.559
fire shooting out of the upper floors. I'm like,

00:51:19.699 --> 00:51:22.880
I tell Dave, like, holy shit, bro. Who's going

00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:26.739
to work? Like, get everything on. So Kenny's

00:51:26.739 --> 00:51:30.039
on the other side. The chauffeur's asking where

00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.639
the standpipe is. We know the standpipe connection's

00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:35.059
on the corner. So we had to come off Greenwich

00:51:35.059 --> 00:51:37.800
and make this right, and then Washington Street

00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:41.619
was the entrance into the site because Deutsche

00:51:41.619 --> 00:51:44.019
was being taken apart. They were dismantled in

00:51:44.019 --> 00:51:47.679
the building. So the exterior elevator was on

00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:52.079
the other side of the building, on the Trade

00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:58.250
Center side. So I'm sorry. We go tell the guy,

00:51:58.329 --> 00:52:01.329
you know, we got to go get up there. So he takes

00:52:01.329 --> 00:52:05.449
us to the floor below, and we get off the elevator

00:52:05.449 --> 00:52:09.150
onto plywooded deck, steel plywooded deck, and

00:52:09.150 --> 00:52:12.030
walk in. And when we walked in, I noticed the

00:52:12.030 --> 00:52:14.630
air hoses, holes in the side of the building.

00:52:15.269 --> 00:52:18.349
So we walk in. The whole interior of the building

00:52:18.349 --> 00:52:22.949
is plastic. So we're going for the elevator shaft

00:52:22.949 --> 00:52:25.230
and the staircases. So we start walking around.

00:52:25.329 --> 00:52:27.900
We come down. And we take a right and we get

00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:30.239
to the first staircase and go in. And where the

00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:34.039
standpipe is supposed to be, there was a standpipe,

00:52:34.059 --> 00:52:35.820
but there were garden hose connections on there.

00:52:36.340 --> 00:52:39.039
So the boss told me to go up. So I climbed up.

00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:41.820
I had the nozzle for that. I climb up and this

00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:45.139
is plastic in the staircases. So I take my knife

00:52:45.139 --> 00:52:47.440
and I start cutting them. And it's like these

00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:50.639
heavy timber doors. Like I'm like, I can't get

00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:54.739
up this, you know. So we go back down. Now we're

00:52:54.739 --> 00:52:57.920
in the core, so we have the elevators. The next

00:52:57.920 --> 00:52:59.940
staircase, the B stairs, that's what we set up.

00:52:59.980 --> 00:53:02.420
We had a regular standpipe there, so that's where

00:53:02.420 --> 00:53:06.619
I dropped my line, Dave dropped his line, and

00:53:06.619 --> 00:53:09.119
Control had his line. So we had our three lines,

00:53:09.219 --> 00:53:13.079
and we just were waiting for water. So Kenny

00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:15.099
starts walking around, and other companies are

00:53:15.099 --> 00:53:16.659
starting to come up. There was only really one

00:53:16.659 --> 00:53:21.150
way up. We came up the exterior elevator. And

00:53:21.150 --> 00:53:23.789
as members tried getting up from the ground floor

00:53:23.789 --> 00:53:27.389
into staircases, they were stopped because they

00:53:27.389 --> 00:53:30.230
had these doors and they had this really strange

00:53:30.230 --> 00:53:34.010
– going through that building and seeing the

00:53:34.010 --> 00:53:35.670
stuff that they did in this building, it didn't

00:53:35.670 --> 00:53:37.829
make sense to me. And I've done construction

00:53:37.829 --> 00:53:40.250
a long time. Like they had staircases that were

00:53:40.250 --> 00:53:43.050
like, no joke, this wide. You had to sidestep

00:53:43.050 --> 00:53:44.690
in. We're not getting up that unless we're taking

00:53:44.690 --> 00:53:48.500
our bottle off. It didn't make sense. So we're

00:53:48.500 --> 00:53:51.019
just standing there, and we had some haze coming.

00:53:51.099 --> 00:53:53.739
So Kenny tells us, you know, hey, let's take

00:53:53.739 --> 00:53:56.119
some windows. So, you know, we're an engine company.

00:53:56.179 --> 00:53:58.000
We don't have hooks and halogens, and the truck's

00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.019
just trying to force entry above. So we step

00:54:01.019 --> 00:54:03.420
over to that floor, and we just find what we

00:54:03.420 --> 00:54:06.280
can. You know, sledgehammer here, you know, pipes

00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.300
and stuff, trying to break windows, just get

00:54:08.300 --> 00:54:10.599
some ventilation up there. Because we're up there

00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:16.530
for about 15, 20 minutes at this point. So we

00:54:16.530 --> 00:54:18.949
go back over to the staircase and, you know,

00:54:18.949 --> 00:54:20.929
we have this haze starting to come, you know,

00:54:20.929 --> 00:54:23.670
and at this point you got the truck companies

00:54:23.670 --> 00:54:27.090
coming up with bolt saws. You got other companies

00:54:27.090 --> 00:54:29.150
coming into the area. Everybody's trying to make

00:54:29.150 --> 00:54:30.789
their way up there. You know, we just got to

00:54:30.789 --> 00:54:34.050
get entry to the floor above, you know, but we

00:54:34.050 --> 00:54:37.750
still don't have water. So at one point the haze

00:54:37.750 --> 00:54:39.849
was pretty decent and the boss comes by, go on

00:54:39.849 --> 00:54:44.719
air, go on air. So he walks away. And then I

00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:46.659
tell Davis, dude, take that off. We don't know

00:54:46.659 --> 00:54:49.719
what's going on here. We don't know what the

00:54:49.719 --> 00:54:51.840
plan is. Save our air right now. It wasn't that

00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:58.079
bad, but I preferred not to at that point. The

00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.820
boss from 7 -1, Lieutenant Gentilomo, he wanted

00:55:01.820 --> 00:55:06.079
us to set up for a search line. So I kicked a

00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:08.480
hole in the door in a sheetrock, and we're all

00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:11.480
set to put the search line in there. They had

00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:13.699
a substantial object to get up there and find

00:55:13.699 --> 00:55:20.619
out where the fire is. And then it was like out

00:55:20.619 --> 00:55:25.960
of nowhere. It just got pitch black so fast.

00:55:26.199 --> 00:55:31.840
It was just like that. It got hot really fast.

00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:34.920
So we get on our bellies and start crawling.

00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:38.719
I'm looking over my shoulder and I'm seeing fire

00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:41.309
ripping through this. I'm like... Okay, yeah,

00:55:41.449 --> 00:55:44.929
we're in a pickle. So I'm following Dave, and

00:55:44.929 --> 00:55:47.530
I have his foot. There was nobody behind me.

00:55:47.909 --> 00:55:51.389
Now, I hadn't seen the boss since before when

00:55:51.389 --> 00:55:54.670
he told us to go on air. He had gone down the

00:55:54.670 --> 00:55:57.670
staircase. You know, I was on Dave's foot. I

00:55:57.670 --> 00:56:01.090
knew Dave had a wall. So he had gone down the

00:56:01.090 --> 00:56:03.429
staircase and was down there, and they couldn't

00:56:03.429 --> 00:56:06.309
get down, and that's what we found out way after.

00:56:07.769 --> 00:56:10.949
As I'm going over this pile of dirt, the ceiling

00:56:10.949 --> 00:56:13.750
grid comes back and grabs my bottle. So now I'm

00:56:13.750 --> 00:56:16.929
like stuck on this and I'm just like trying to

00:56:16.929 --> 00:56:20.130
thrust myself out and I lose Dave's foot. When

00:56:20.130 --> 00:56:22.849
I do get out of it, you know, I had my knife,

00:56:22.869 --> 00:56:27.590
I cut back, I'm in an open area and I have no

00:56:27.590 --> 00:56:30.590
idea where I am. And this can't see anything,

00:56:30.710 --> 00:56:36.190
you know, pitch black and it's hot. I panic and,

00:56:36.289 --> 00:56:38.630
you know, I pull my face piece off, you know,

00:56:39.099 --> 00:56:43.860
uh take a nice feed and uh i basically and this

00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:46.920
is what i tell when i do my talks is i piss myself

00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:49.119
i mean i really thought that that was it i'll

00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:52.039
be honest i thought that that was it um i don't

00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:54.300
know where i am and there's no way i could have

00:56:54.300 --> 00:56:58.659
figured out where i was um but i felt like uh

00:56:58.659 --> 00:57:02.239
like almost a tap on the shoulder and uh i put

00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:04.860
my face piece back on and i was able to transmit

00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:08.820
a mayday so i got a mayday out Um, at the time

00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:11.380
that all of this happened with us, there were

00:57:11.380 --> 00:57:16.880
28 maydays at the same time. So they got me and

00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:21.219
I heard that I read it too. Um, then we had the

00:57:21.219 --> 00:57:24.860
audio and stuff and, uh, you know, I explained

00:57:24.860 --> 00:57:27.260
where I was. So like, I'm just kind of like feeling

00:57:27.260 --> 00:57:33.920
around. I'm also terrified. Um, and I remember

00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:37.840
those hoses. Now, when I came in, I mentioned

00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:40.840
that I saw those hoses on the, those hose holes

00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:43.380
out there. I figured that was it. So I kind of

00:57:43.380 --> 00:57:45.659
backed up a little bit and I was going to go

00:57:45.659 --> 00:57:50.079
right. But I kind of like backed up a little

00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:52.619
bit and I'm hearing people, you know, this is

00:57:52.619 --> 00:57:54.659
the way out. This is the way out. And I looked

00:57:54.659 --> 00:57:57.099
up and I thought I saw, you know, light. So smoke

00:57:57.099 --> 00:57:59.300
went out, you know, it didn't go out and that

00:57:59.300 --> 00:58:01.800
was a quick light. Next thing you know, the captain

00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:04.019
from squad 18 has got my body, drags me out,

00:58:04.059 --> 00:58:06.920
throws me out. My vibro alerts are going off.

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:10.300
I pull that off. I get out, and I hear guys banging

00:58:10.300 --> 00:58:13.940
on the wall. So I grab whatever I can see there,

00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.579
and I try to pry. So one by one, guys started

00:58:16.579 --> 00:58:18.940
coming back out. Kenny puts me and Dave in the

00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:22.199
elevator, and we go down, and we went around

00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.460
the corner back to 10 truck. That's where they

00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:31.820
told us to go. The picture, I sent you that picture.

00:58:31.900 --> 00:58:34.340
That was a photographer, the post that was down

00:58:34.340 --> 00:58:36.400
there. That's what they put in the damn paper.

00:58:36.699 --> 00:58:41.039
You know, jacket off, bunkers on, tank on the

00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:44.519
ground, and looking up in absolute shock. I can't

00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:48.039
fucking believe what just happened here. I can't

00:58:48.039 --> 00:58:51.659
believe what just happened here. I had taken

00:58:51.659 --> 00:58:54.360
a civilian cell phone, and I called my mom. My

00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:56.820
mom was watching this on the news. You know,

00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:59.400
she knew I was working. My aunt was down there

00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:03.000
earlier that day. You know, it's like, you know,

00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:06.280
I'm okay. Have some close friends and, you know,

00:59:06.280 --> 00:59:08.099
they grab family together and stuff like that.

00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:10.579
But, you know, we stuck around for a little bit

00:59:10.579 --> 00:59:15.039
and then they sent us to the hospital. I'm still

00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:17.760
in shock at this point. Definitely had some CO

00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:21.760
and some smoke inhalation. So they admitted all

00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:24.800
of us. Dave was admitted. He was on the other

00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:27.739
side. Um, then we had, you know, the mayor and

00:59:27.739 --> 00:59:30.199
the commissioner come by, you know, and, uh,

00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:33.360
you know, I had some words, uh, that I won't

00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:37.099
say here, but, um, the DI that I had in probie

00:59:37.099 --> 00:59:41.739
school, um, two guys had died, uh, Bobby Badia

00:59:41.739 --> 00:59:44.639
and Joey Graffagnino, the, the DI from probie

00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:48.039
school, Donnie Wondelick, um, he had come over

00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:50.480
to me and asked me what happened. This is my

00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:53.559
DI. You know, this is in 2007. I just got out

00:59:53.559 --> 00:59:55.800
in 2004. So three years later, he remembered

00:59:55.800 --> 01:00:00.079
me. So I'm telling what's going on. When I was

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.659
able to be released, which is like 1130, 12 o

01:00:02.659 --> 01:00:04.659
'clock, I wasn't going to leave the hospital

01:00:04.659 --> 01:00:06.780
until Dave was done and cleared because we had

01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:10.860
high levels. And Donnie grabs me and we go outside

01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:12.860
to the ambulance bay. And now here I am standing

01:00:12.860 --> 01:00:15.559
in front of him as they're taking one of the

01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:17.539
guys out on the stretcher and putting him in

01:00:17.539 --> 01:00:20.510
the ambulance to take him to the morgue. So I'm

01:00:20.510 --> 01:00:25.769
now witnessing this. Me and Dave leave. We go

01:00:25.769 --> 01:00:28.170
back to the firehouse. Chief Kelty was there.

01:00:28.469 --> 01:00:32.070
He had come out of 10. He got promoted from 10.

01:00:32.710 --> 01:00:34.429
And he said, did you call your parents? Yes,

01:00:34.429 --> 01:00:35.869
we did. Did you eat? There's pizza in the back.

01:00:35.969 --> 01:00:38.409
So Dave and I decided we were going to go to

01:00:38.409 --> 01:00:41.969
the medical office the next day together. But

01:00:41.969 --> 01:00:45.929
I went to the neighborhood bar where one of my

01:00:45.929 --> 01:00:49.679
buddies was there who works in Queens. My brother

01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:51.360
was there. My sister was there. My brother -in

01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:52.800
-law was there. My best friends were there. My

01:00:52.800 --> 01:01:00.500
family was at this bar. That bar doesn't even

01:01:00.500 --> 01:01:05.119
exist anymore. I walk in there. There's two shots

01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:09.900
in the back of the bar. It's just hug after hug

01:01:09.900 --> 01:01:20.679
after hug. Even all these years later, it still

01:01:20.679 --> 01:01:24.619
hits me. And I just tried explaining this a couple

01:01:24.619 --> 01:01:26.500
of weeks ago. It never hits me at the same time.

01:01:26.780 --> 01:01:30.699
It's never the same exact moment in this day

01:01:30.699 --> 01:01:36.059
that I get choked up. And, you know, my brother

01:01:36.059 --> 01:01:37.559
goes, I think you need a new career. I said,

01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:42.219
no, I don't. I don't need a new career. So I

01:01:42.219 --> 01:01:48.869
hung out for a little bit, went home. Dave met

01:01:48.869 --> 01:01:50.769
me in my house. We jumped on the train. We went

01:01:50.769 --> 01:01:53.869
to headquarters, and we walked in. We were all

01:01:53.869 --> 01:01:56.210
in one area. We're all asking each other, where

01:01:56.210 --> 01:01:58.210
were you? What happened to you guys and stuff

01:01:58.210 --> 01:02:02.409
like that? They put us offline with counseling.

01:02:02.710 --> 01:02:05.989
It was a fatal fire, and this is not an ordinary

01:02:05.989 --> 01:02:09.409
fire. There's nothing normal about what happened.

01:02:10.030 --> 01:02:13.550
I believe it went, I think at that point, six

01:02:13.550 --> 01:02:17.019
alarms. or seven alarms. It was the highest alarm

01:02:17.019 --> 01:02:20.239
fire in New York since 9 -11. I think that's

01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:23.719
what Deutsche Bank was. I believe that's, I don't

01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:27.960
remember the exact six or seven, but, you know,

01:02:27.980 --> 01:02:31.119
we had to go to counseling and we were told we

01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:33.320
could take a transfer anywhere we wanted. You

01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:35.800
know, like, no, I'll stay here. You know, it

01:02:35.800 --> 01:02:39.739
didn't really affect me because what happened

01:02:39.739 --> 01:02:47.239
after that, it definitely. slowed this PTSD.

01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:53.260
It brought it to a screeching halt. Me and Vinny

01:02:53.260 --> 01:02:55.699
from 10 Truck, we were asked to join a group

01:02:55.699 --> 01:02:57.880
that we would travel around on the 9 -11 anniversary

01:02:57.880 --> 01:03:00.119
and do rebuilds where there were natural disasters.

01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:02.739
So we both got pretty involved with that. I got

01:03:02.739 --> 01:03:04.659
very involved with that. That's where I got into

01:03:04.659 --> 01:03:12.019
the 9 -11 flag and all of that stuff. They called

01:03:12.019 --> 01:03:14.340
us in for court and everything, and it was insane

01:03:14.340 --> 01:03:18.840
that I sat there and I read my transmissions

01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:20.940
word for word. What I said to them was word for

01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:24.619
word on what happened. You know, and, you know,

01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:31.500
I mean, what happened that day, shock. I did

01:03:31.500 --> 01:03:35.139
a recon with my senior guy from 10 Engine, Sal

01:03:35.139 --> 01:03:38.539
Organo. He took himself offline and went there

01:03:38.539 --> 01:03:41.110
because that's basically. our building, you know,

01:03:41.110 --> 01:03:46.329
and I was able to go through and I, I made a

01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:50.230
video of exactly what I remember from that day,

01:03:50.289 --> 01:03:52.550
you know, walk through the building and I couldn't

01:03:52.550 --> 01:03:54.849
believe it was like 10 feet away from where the

01:03:54.849 --> 01:03:57.949
captain grabbed me and pulled me out, but I couldn't

01:03:57.949 --> 01:04:00.610
find that entrance, you know, but what I saw

01:04:00.610 --> 01:04:03.030
in that building after, you know, the shafts

01:04:03.030 --> 01:04:05.150
and the open areas that, you know, what was in

01:04:05.150 --> 01:04:08.309
each of these other floors, it was insane. You

01:04:08.309 --> 01:04:10.789
know, you got, One floor that's got all the aluminum

01:04:10.789 --> 01:04:13.030
framing in the middle of the room just jagged,

01:04:13.030 --> 01:04:15.469
sticking out. It's a firefighter's nightmare.

01:04:16.210 --> 01:04:20.750
You've got cords and wires and everything hanging

01:04:20.750 --> 01:04:23.010
off the ceilings. That's a firefighter's nightmare.

01:04:23.989 --> 01:04:30.269
Everything was different. And seeing all that

01:04:30.269 --> 01:04:32.309
with the court cases and stuff like that, it's

01:04:32.309 --> 01:04:36.679
like... You know, and it wasn't until that March

01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:40.079
that I had come down the block to go to work.

01:04:40.940 --> 01:04:43.539
And I looked up at that building and, you know,

01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:46.099
they hadn't done anything on it. And I was it's

01:04:46.099 --> 01:04:49.679
just 2008. And I'm like, I can't stay here anymore.

01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:53.559
You know, so I went inside. I talked to the senior

01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:57.539
guy and I, you know, he's like, you know, it's

01:04:57.539 --> 01:04:58.820
a big world out there. You got to do what you

01:04:58.820 --> 01:05:00.920
got to do for you. It wasn't that I wanted to

01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:05.909
leave. I just. A couple months later, it irked

01:05:05.909 --> 01:05:07.590
me that much that I didn't want to see that building

01:05:07.590 --> 01:05:11.730
anymore. So they had had an accident where one

01:05:11.730 --> 01:05:13.690
of the skid jacks went off the roof and could

01:05:13.690 --> 01:05:15.389
have killed guys on the ground. Like how much

01:05:15.389 --> 01:05:17.849
more? I definitely don't feel like seeing that.

01:05:17.969 --> 01:05:21.409
So I went upstairs and I filled out paperwork

01:05:21.409 --> 01:05:24.449
and I took a transfer to Queens. I just picked

01:05:24.449 --> 01:05:26.409
a firehouse. I didn't go out there like you should

01:05:26.409 --> 01:05:29.269
have. I picked one because I grew up in the neighborhoods.

01:05:29.369 --> 01:05:31.349
I knew the neighborhoods. And you know what?

01:05:31.429 --> 01:05:35.309
It's probably better for me. I figured take myself

01:05:35.309 --> 01:05:38.250
out of that situation. I still kept in touch

01:05:38.250 --> 01:05:41.550
with the guys, St. Patrick's Day. And still to

01:05:41.550 --> 01:05:44.809
this day, I still talk to guys. But I did that

01:05:44.809 --> 01:05:50.130
for myself. And that was the start of the next

01:05:50.130 --> 01:05:57.349
chapter of my life after that fire in 2008. You

01:05:57.349 --> 01:05:59.329
mentioned about being so close to the edge and

01:05:59.329 --> 01:06:01.869
obviously having that truck captain finding you.

01:06:02.230 --> 01:06:05.670
What about the two men that you lost? Where were

01:06:05.670 --> 01:06:07.550
the elements where they weren't as fortunate

01:06:07.550 --> 01:06:11.289
as you were? They were on the floor below us.

01:06:12.190 --> 01:06:16.309
Anybody that looks into that fire and there's

01:06:16.309 --> 01:06:20.099
a book out there. about it and you could read

01:06:20.099 --> 01:06:23.039
all the reports and stuff you know these guys

01:06:23.039 --> 01:06:25.000
are all trying to get up to come get us you know

01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:26.659
we're transmitting maydays and the same effect

01:06:26.659 --> 01:06:28.619
that happened with us happened with them you

01:06:28.619 --> 01:06:30.340
know that fire went down as far as the 12th floor

01:06:30.340 --> 01:06:33.739
you know started on 17th you know fire and heat

01:06:33.739 --> 01:06:36.820
supposed to rise the asbestos abatement units

01:06:36.820 --> 01:06:39.260
in the building were keeping everything in so

01:06:39.260 --> 01:06:42.380
as soon as they opened up these doors these trap

01:06:42.380 --> 01:06:45.030
doors it just sucked everything in You know,

01:06:45.030 --> 01:06:47.650
and it was just a flash. And that wasn't good

01:06:47.650 --> 01:06:49.530
stuff because we know that that building had

01:06:49.530 --> 01:06:51.489
contaminants from 9 -11 in it. You know, that

01:06:51.489 --> 01:06:53.050
building, that was a building right there that

01:06:53.050 --> 01:06:55.449
had the black scaffolding around it for years.

01:06:55.570 --> 01:06:58.550
They had the American flags on it for 9 -11 anniversaries

01:06:58.550 --> 01:07:02.309
along with the World Financial Center. You know,

01:07:02.309 --> 01:07:06.050
and it's sad what happened to those guys. But

01:07:06.050 --> 01:07:09.210
it's also sad that their office that was there

01:07:09.210 --> 01:07:12.789
that day hung himself. He was a 9 -11 firefighter

01:07:12.789 --> 01:07:17.429
as well, and he just lost two guys. And there's

01:07:17.429 --> 01:07:20.010
other people that have taken their lives as well.

01:07:20.170 --> 01:07:24.449
And I'll tell you, that fire put me this close

01:07:24.449 --> 01:07:28.210
to having to go into a home because the nightmares

01:07:28.210 --> 01:07:32.110
and what happened on the pills that I was given

01:07:32.110 --> 01:07:36.889
and where I felt in my mind, I just absolute,

01:07:37.130 --> 01:07:42.480
sheer... It wasn't insanity. It was just like

01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:50.579
absolute done. Done. No care, no cries, no tears,

01:07:50.760 --> 01:07:59.059
no done. And it happened years later. We touched

01:07:59.059 --> 01:08:02.860
on Grenfell earlier. was down to the cladding,

01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:04.960
the petroleum -based cladding that they had all

01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:10.000
the way up to kind of beautify this low -income

01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:14.420
housing for the wealthy residents that were neighboring.

01:08:14.679 --> 01:08:18.220
And that was why it acted in such an unusual

01:08:18.220 --> 01:08:20.479
way and the shelter in place that should have

01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:23.560
worked on a regular single apartment fire didn't

01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:25.779
work and it caused so many deaths in that particular

01:08:25.779 --> 01:08:31.210
example. When they did the review of this whole

01:08:31.210 --> 01:08:34.510
thing, whether it's the fire prevention side,

01:08:34.829 --> 01:08:38.609
disregarding of what should have been done, whether

01:08:38.609 --> 01:08:41.270
it's operationally, what were the takeaways,

01:08:41.430 --> 01:08:44.029
the lessons learned to try and avoid a repeat

01:08:44.029 --> 01:08:49.869
of that event? Well, they came up with a very

01:08:49.869 --> 01:08:54.270
in -depth building inspection safety program.

01:08:55.579 --> 01:08:58.800
You know, for the longest time, you know, we

01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:03.720
did we did build an inspection and this is specifying

01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:06.119
on more things. You know, you would get an extra

01:09:06.119 --> 01:09:08.520
training on it. And, you know, this is what you

01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:10.260
got to do and you got to do all of these and

01:09:10.260 --> 01:09:13.819
this that, you know, I guess what happened, why

01:09:13.819 --> 01:09:15.939
people didn't go into that building. Obvious

01:09:15.939 --> 01:09:18.500
reasons is hazardous materials in the building.

01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:20.659
You know how you're supposed to inspect the building,

01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:23.100
but the building is being deconstructed. I guess

01:09:23.100 --> 01:09:25.739
you didn't think that. The work is there. We're

01:09:25.739 --> 01:09:28.279
going to do something so stupid as like set a

01:09:28.279 --> 01:09:30.460
small area on fire, you know, whether you're

01:09:30.460 --> 01:09:33.539
happy with the job or not. But, you know, that

01:09:33.539 --> 01:09:37.140
fire right there changed my life. I was not ready

01:09:37.140 --> 01:09:42.039
to retire. Absolutely not. And I've been in fires

01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:47.239
after that fire. And it wasn't of what has been

01:09:47.239 --> 01:09:49.720
said to me, which I just I laugh off because

01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:52.100
like you have no idea you're talking about, guy.

01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:57.439
I'm not scared of fire. What terrifies me is

01:09:57.439 --> 01:09:59.939
that building. Even though it's not there, in

01:09:59.939 --> 01:10:03.180
my mind, it's still there. And I've been down

01:10:03.180 --> 01:10:06.739
there a few times in the last 11 years. Even

01:10:06.739 --> 01:10:09.140
when I'm there, I still see it. I still smell

01:10:09.140 --> 01:10:13.079
it. I close my eyes in two hours and take a nap

01:10:13.079 --> 01:10:19.960
and I'll smell that building. It's insane how...

01:10:20.250 --> 01:10:24.529
One day, one specific job could dictate the entire

01:10:24.529 --> 01:10:29.149
progress of a person's life. When you talked

01:10:29.149 --> 01:10:32.590
about transferring to Queens, you remove yourself

01:10:32.590 --> 01:10:35.229
from where the geographical location of the building

01:10:35.229 --> 01:10:38.010
is, but you've also now kind of taken yourself

01:10:38.010 --> 01:10:40.789
away from the crew, the tribe, the brotherhood

01:10:40.789 --> 01:10:43.789
that you had in that station. What were the next

01:10:43.789 --> 01:10:46.609
few years like as far as the pros and the cons

01:10:46.609 --> 01:10:51.920
of that move? So it was interesting. I made some

01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:55.359
more friends. I would never replace the guys

01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:57.079
from 10. I still talk to a lot of these guys

01:10:57.079 --> 01:11:00.439
today. And when I do go down, I do my best to

01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:03.319
try to get together with everybody. And I saw

01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:05.439
them this past April, which is great. I saw them

01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:08.180
the year before, which was even more great. It

01:11:08.180 --> 01:11:10.100
was a time, like I was talking about when I was

01:11:10.100 --> 01:11:14.529
growing up younger, you can't explain. how amazing

01:11:14.529 --> 01:11:17.210
it was that we grew up when and where. And I

01:11:17.210 --> 01:11:20.029
can't explain how great it was that I still have

01:11:20.029 --> 01:11:21.890
the ability to hang out with these guys, you

01:11:21.890 --> 01:11:25.250
know? So going to Queens, making new friends

01:11:25.250 --> 01:11:27.569
and meeting different people, it definitely was

01:11:27.569 --> 01:11:29.909
not the firehouse in Manhattan. I can tell you

01:11:29.909 --> 01:11:33.770
that. I was excited because I'm in a different

01:11:33.770 --> 01:11:35.729
realm. Now I'm in Queens. I'm in three digit

01:11:35.729 --> 01:11:39.109
land, you know, private dwellings, you know,

01:11:39.109 --> 01:11:42.270
we have brush fires, which are hilarious, insane,

01:11:42.590 --> 01:11:45.430
you know? duct tape on your bunker pants and

01:11:45.430 --> 01:11:47.890
on your sleeves because all that soot that you

01:11:47.890 --> 01:11:50.350
walk through gets in places that it shouldn't

01:11:50.350 --> 01:11:54.170
be. And some of the other guys that cover it

01:11:54.170 --> 01:11:55.310
would laugh at us. Like, why are you guys doing

01:11:55.310 --> 01:11:58.470
that? Trust me. You want to do this. You know,

01:11:58.489 --> 01:12:00.550
I mean, I saw some pretty cool things. The captain

01:12:00.550 --> 01:12:02.949
put me in chauffeur school and I was able to

01:12:02.949 --> 01:12:07.550
be a chauffeur of an engine. And I'll never forget

01:12:07.550 --> 01:12:10.430
my first due fire. You know, the truck was going

01:12:10.430 --> 01:12:13.399
to the rock for training. And we literally crossed

01:12:13.399 --> 01:12:14.960
the boulevard, a couple of streets down, took

01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:16.819
a left, this fire ripping out of the front of

01:12:16.819 --> 01:12:19.359
this house. You know, dropped the boss off, the

01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:22.380
backup and the nozzle at the door. My control

01:12:22.380 --> 01:12:26.119
stayed with me, went down, hit the hydrant, got

01:12:26.119 --> 01:12:28.600
my lengths count, got everything in pumps, good

01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:31.539
to go. Flowed water, zipped up my jacket, pulled

01:12:31.539 --> 01:12:33.960
my hat down, lit a cigarette. It was like, yeah,

01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:39.210
you know, it was great. You know, I also, I was

01:12:39.210 --> 01:12:43.369
fortunate to take a detail in Glendale at the

01:12:43.369 --> 01:12:46.270
firehouse that I grew up in growing up as a little

01:12:46.270 --> 01:12:49.029
kid and be a chauffeur there. And what was kind

01:12:49.029 --> 01:12:53.989
of wild was the boss was the brother of a kid

01:12:53.989 --> 01:12:56.510
that I went to grammar school with. So he was

01:12:56.510 --> 01:12:58.789
a cop and then his, you know, the boss was a

01:12:58.789 --> 01:13:01.350
fireman. So that was kind of cool. But we got

01:13:01.350 --> 01:13:04.109
to see my Uncle John. He was a deacon at St.

01:13:04.210 --> 01:13:06.590
Matthias in Ridgewood, Queens. You know, it was

01:13:06.590 --> 01:13:09.369
really awesome to be able to see him. You know,

01:13:09.369 --> 01:13:12.189
I'm in uniform and I'm driving an FDNY engine.

01:13:13.109 --> 01:13:15.949
I got to take a picture with him, which was,

01:13:16.050 --> 01:13:18.010
you know, one of the coolest things, you know.

01:13:18.729 --> 01:13:21.149
And I'm driving an engine in a neighborhood that

01:13:21.149 --> 01:13:26.090
I grew up in, you know. But the cons were I missed

01:13:26.090 --> 01:13:28.569
the, you know, get out of work and go out to

01:13:28.569 --> 01:13:30.430
O 'Harris, you know, right behind the firehouse

01:13:30.430 --> 01:13:33.119
and see the guys. You know, it was a new life.

01:13:33.180 --> 01:13:34.840
I had an apartment three blocks away from the

01:13:34.840 --> 01:13:38.239
firehouse. It was fantastic. You know, I was

01:13:38.239 --> 01:13:40.720
late for work once and I forgot that I was working

01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:45.520
that day. But, you know, it had some downs too.

01:13:45.659 --> 01:13:48.140
I mean, you know, I had an issue with one guy

01:13:48.140 --> 01:13:51.319
and it's just like whatever. And, you know, when

01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:55.079
things started happening, it happened in 2011.

01:13:55.579 --> 01:13:58.460
You know, that's when I started having the nightmares.

01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:02.659
Those guys had to deal with my craziness when

01:14:02.659 --> 01:14:05.380
the nightmares started and the medical leaves

01:14:05.380 --> 01:14:08.960
and all the other stuff. And then you fast forward

01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:12.039
into Hurricane Sandy in 2012, and that was the

01:14:12.039 --> 01:14:15.340
peak of the complete breakdown. So walk me through

01:14:15.340 --> 01:14:18.260
that. What were the kind of beginning incidents

01:14:18.260 --> 01:14:20.439
that you were having as far as nightmares and

01:14:20.439 --> 01:14:22.960
anything else? And then take us into Hurricane

01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:27.189
Sandy and that event through your eyes. I had

01:14:27.189 --> 01:14:29.449
all these volunteer things that I was doing around

01:14:29.449 --> 01:14:35.609
the country from 2007 until 2012, roughly. I

01:14:35.609 --> 01:14:38.510
was in charge of the national 9 -11 flag. I had

01:14:38.510 --> 01:14:41.689
a dozen guys from the FDNY. We had some firefighters

01:14:41.689 --> 01:14:43.909
from Utica, Illinois, and some firefighters from

01:14:43.909 --> 01:14:47.069
Slidell, Louisiana. And we took that flag to

01:14:47.069 --> 01:14:50.170
all 50 states by the 10th year anniversary of

01:14:50.170 --> 01:14:54.920
9 -11. And our job was to stand on a guard. With

01:14:54.920 --> 01:14:57.939
that flag, you know, talk about it. And it was

01:14:57.939 --> 01:15:00.800
great. My mind was engulfed in everything, you

01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:06.800
know. Then that ended. And that's when things

01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:10.039
changed. So we still had the volunteer group.

01:15:10.939 --> 01:15:13.859
But the flag tour, which is a huge part of my

01:15:13.859 --> 01:15:15.640
life, because I personally took that flag to

01:15:15.640 --> 01:15:18.020
46 of the 50 states while working full duty.

01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:20.920
You know, it was the most amazing thing I've

01:15:20.920 --> 01:15:24.039
done with my life. And I can't thank. The FDNY

01:15:24.039 --> 01:15:28.399
for allowing us to do that, you know. But I went

01:15:28.399 --> 01:15:31.220
to bed one night. I had a nightmare about that

01:15:31.220 --> 01:15:34.119
fire. And I woke up sweating like, all right,

01:15:34.220 --> 01:15:36.880
whatever. You know, didn't bug me that much.

01:15:37.020 --> 01:15:41.460
Went to work. Next night, there's another one.

01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:44.279
Here's another one. What the fuck is going on

01:15:44.279 --> 01:15:46.840
here, you know. And it was always the same thing.

01:15:46.899 --> 01:15:50.600
It was when everything banked down and I'm trying

01:15:50.600 --> 01:15:56.079
to get out. Now I'm actually in that building

01:15:56.079 --> 01:15:59.399
and when I'm pulling my face piece off, I'm actually

01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:03.439
pissing myself. So I'm pissing the bed. So I'm

01:16:03.439 --> 01:16:06.899
waking up like this. I've woken up in the living

01:16:06.899 --> 01:16:09.979
room on the floor. I actually crawled out of

01:16:09.979 --> 01:16:13.300
my basement apartment, up the stairs into an

01:16:13.300 --> 01:16:16.239
avenue and woke up at three o 'clock in the morning.

01:16:16.380 --> 01:16:18.659
I had to put a padlock on my gate so I couldn't

01:16:18.659 --> 01:16:21.779
get out. I was having these vivid nightmares.

01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:25.600
I was in that building again. I was pissing my

01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:29.579
bed. And I say that not proudly. I say that because

01:16:29.579 --> 01:16:33.539
this is what happened to me. This is what put

01:16:33.539 --> 01:16:38.819
me over the deep end. I'm not in the firehouse

01:16:38.819 --> 01:16:42.520
now. I was doing light duty while we were talking

01:16:42.520 --> 01:16:46.000
about things. Now they start, take this, take

01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:48.319
this, take this. All right, try this, try this.

01:16:48.939 --> 01:16:53.550
All right, so my normal weight was 194. Now I'm

01:16:53.550 --> 01:16:55.890
not eating. I'm not sleeping because I'm scared

01:16:55.890 --> 01:17:01.090
to go to sleep. I'm not working. Now I'm not

01:17:01.090 --> 01:17:06.869
eating. So I'm down to like 160, 168. And I'm

01:17:06.869 --> 01:17:09.989
depressed. Now I'm drinking. And I'm drinking.

01:17:10.069 --> 01:17:12.350
And I'm drinking. I once walked into the bar

01:17:12.350 --> 01:17:14.670
that doesn't exist anymore, banged down five

01:17:14.670 --> 01:17:16.710
shots of Jameson, walked outside, threw up in

01:17:16.710 --> 01:17:20.890
a tree, went back in and drank again. You know,

01:17:20.930 --> 01:17:24.750
I'm on medical leave. I'm not allowed to be in

01:17:24.750 --> 01:17:27.350
my light duty spot. You know, I was doing security

01:17:27.350 --> 01:17:30.590
in Central Park. They didn't want me there. And

01:17:30.590 --> 01:17:32.229
then I was doing the driving for the messenger

01:17:32.229 --> 01:17:34.810
van in the third division. Can't drive on the

01:17:34.810 --> 01:17:38.710
meds. So it's basically trapped home. So Hurricane

01:17:38.710 --> 01:17:45.229
Sandy starts. And, bro, you can't make this up.

01:17:45.350 --> 01:17:47.489
I live in a basement apartment in Howard Beach,

01:17:47.529 --> 01:17:50.699
Queens at that point. I'm paying $800 a month.

01:17:50.840 --> 01:17:54.899
My firehouse is three blocks away. All the greatest

01:17:54.899 --> 01:17:56.859
Italian food you could possibly imagine within

01:17:56.859 --> 01:18:01.539
a four block. The beach, 12 minutes away. Airport,

01:18:01.859 --> 01:18:04.279
10 minutes away. Everything that you could possibly

01:18:04.279 --> 01:18:07.560
ask for. We're not in an evacuation zone. Doesn't

01:18:07.560 --> 01:18:11.439
this freaking storm come in and in 20 freaking

01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:14.800
minutes, I got water halfway up my freaking door.

01:18:15.300 --> 01:18:18.930
So now I'm stuck upstairs. Water's coming and

01:18:18.930 --> 01:18:22.850
coming and coming. Dumpsters floating down 157th

01:18:22.850 --> 01:18:25.529
Avenue. Everything that I own is in the basement.

01:18:26.050 --> 01:18:28.750
You know, all my clothes, everything. Gone. Like,

01:18:28.770 --> 01:18:33.930
everything. We're moving up on the second floor

01:18:33.930 --> 01:18:36.350
and I see the army truck come by. Like, hey,

01:18:36.409 --> 01:18:38.750
it's Sansom 331. Can you get me to higher ground?

01:18:39.270 --> 01:18:42.170
Medical emergencies only, asshole. And guys are

01:18:42.170 --> 01:18:45.289
laughing. I'm like, holy shit. This is my company

01:18:45.289 --> 01:18:49.539
right up the fucking street. I just identified,

01:18:49.659 --> 01:18:51.220
you know where I live because they've all been

01:18:51.220 --> 01:18:55.899
in my house. You know what I mean? I got, when

01:18:55.899 --> 01:18:57.600
the water went down, I got out of there. I swam

01:18:57.600 --> 01:18:59.420
a couple blocks to high ground and walked to

01:18:59.420 --> 01:19:01.380
my mom's house in absolute shock and terror.

01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:03.600
Like, I can't believe this. Now, mind you, I

01:19:03.600 --> 01:19:05.039
got all of this business going on with these

01:19:05.039 --> 01:19:06.819
nightmares now too. I just lost everything in

01:19:06.819 --> 01:19:10.020
20 minutes. The girl I was dating at the time,

01:19:10.140 --> 01:19:13.800
her fence blew down. She was way far inland and

01:19:13.800 --> 01:19:16.199
she got all mad that I didn't come over there.

01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:23.210
So there was more. Then I get back there the

01:19:23.210 --> 01:19:26.609
next day and, you know, water recedes. But then

01:19:26.609 --> 01:19:28.930
there's like two, three feet of water still in

01:19:28.930 --> 01:19:31.590
the basement. So my apartment is uprooted up

01:19:31.590 --> 01:19:35.250
and did everything like memories that I had from

01:19:35.250 --> 01:19:37.989
that flag tour. I actually kept all my plane

01:19:37.989 --> 01:19:40.590
tickets and stuff like that. These are things

01:19:40.590 --> 01:19:42.409
that I looked at when I had these nightmares

01:19:42.409 --> 01:19:44.149
and I thought about the, you know, thought about

01:19:44.149 --> 01:19:46.949
the good times. to try to get my mind off of

01:19:46.949 --> 01:19:50.189
waking up and being miserable like that. And

01:19:50.189 --> 01:19:55.130
everything is gone, you know, with the exception

01:19:55.130 --> 01:20:00.850
of Laurie Tisch, Steve Tisch's sister from the

01:20:00.850 --> 01:20:02.989
New York Giants comes to my house and helps clean

01:20:02.989 --> 01:20:04.689
up my basement apartment. I mean, that was pretty

01:20:04.689 --> 01:20:08.229
cool. But the volunteer family was there for

01:20:08.229 --> 01:20:10.609
me. They helped me financially for a little bit.

01:20:10.949 --> 01:20:13.189
FEMA gave me a little over $2 ,000 as a basement

01:20:13.189 --> 01:20:16.229
apartment. The landlord was so awesome. I was

01:20:16.229 --> 01:20:18.109
able to rebuild and I was rent free for a few

01:20:18.109 --> 01:20:21.390
years, almost a year. But now I'm going through

01:20:21.390 --> 01:20:23.409
all of this stuff and then I go in for my board

01:20:23.409 --> 01:20:25.649
for my retirement and they deny me. So now I

01:20:25.649 --> 01:20:32.289
crash even more. So that was the end of everything

01:20:32.289 --> 01:20:39.159
for me. Beginning of January of 2013, I was complete,

01:20:39.399 --> 01:20:43.380
total, 100 % mental, physical, emotional breakdown.

01:20:44.680 --> 01:20:48.199
I was able to find a doctor that was able to

01:20:48.199 --> 01:20:50.779
get me on some medication. So they got me on

01:20:50.779 --> 01:20:56.539
a Buspirone, the Buspar. What the hell was that

01:20:56.539 --> 01:21:03.319
crap? I got an antipsychotic and an anti -anxiety.

01:21:03.439 --> 01:21:08.180
So I had Trazodone and a Lazapine. I had some

01:21:08.180 --> 01:21:10.239
pretty heavy -duty meds going. Now, I still take

01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:12.159
the Buspirone. That's for the anxiety, and that

01:21:12.159 --> 01:21:15.619
has helped me out in crunches. But these other

01:21:15.619 --> 01:21:19.699
pills, they got me even more wackier. And mind

01:21:19.699 --> 01:21:23.039
you, I was medicated for a year and a half prior,

01:21:23.180 --> 01:21:28.159
too. I was able to get myself settled. Went back

01:21:28.159 --> 01:21:31.050
to the board, and they retired me. So, you know,

01:21:31.050 --> 01:21:34.750
it was a mental issue. You know, it was unfit

01:21:34.750 --> 01:21:37.449
for firefighting, unfit permanent. All right.

01:21:37.449 --> 01:21:41.810
So can I physically be a firefighter? Yes. Because

01:21:41.810 --> 01:21:44.069
of the mental thing, the fire department was

01:21:44.069 --> 01:21:46.210
a huge trigger. It really was. Another reason

01:21:46.210 --> 01:21:49.109
why I packed and moved out of New York City was

01:21:49.109 --> 01:21:51.989
to get away from the city. You know, I can go

01:21:51.989 --> 01:21:53.550
down there, but I can't really stay there that

01:21:53.550 --> 01:21:55.609
long. And the longer that I stay down there,

01:21:55.710 --> 01:22:01.489
the more. my mind goes back to 2012, 2011, 2010.

01:22:01.930 --> 01:22:05.449
And it takes weeks for me to get myself back

01:22:05.449 --> 01:22:08.729
to my level playing field where I am right now.

01:22:09.789 --> 01:22:16.149
But that fire every day, it's there every day,

01:22:16.229 --> 01:22:19.229
every night, you know, upon the anniversary,

01:22:19.550 --> 01:22:22.449
you know, August is a very difficult month. You

01:22:22.449 --> 01:22:25.510
know, I just recently lost my brother in 2022.

01:22:26.189 --> 01:22:28.930
That was August. We got the anniversary of the

01:22:28.930 --> 01:22:31.930
fire, August 18th. And then 9 -11 comes on. That

01:22:31.930 --> 01:22:34.850
tears me up every year. You know, my mom's not

01:22:34.850 --> 01:22:36.630
doing well. She's in a nursing home. She just

01:22:36.630 --> 01:22:39.109
turned 79. So it's the beginning. August is the

01:22:39.109 --> 01:22:41.590
worst time of the year for me. My wife didn't

01:22:41.590 --> 01:22:44.789
know how bad my PTSD was until she witnessed

01:22:44.789 --> 01:22:47.590
me having a nightmare. Now, we were on the second

01:22:47.590 --> 01:22:50.050
floor in the apartments before we got the house.

01:22:51.050 --> 01:22:55.130
And I told her from the get -go. If you see me

01:22:55.130 --> 01:22:56.930
crawling around, just make sure I don't hurt

01:22:56.930 --> 01:22:59.449
myself. Don't wake me up. Let it play out. She

01:22:59.449 --> 01:23:01.149
followed me around. I'm banging on walls and

01:23:01.149 --> 01:23:03.590
I try going out the window. Come to rest in front

01:23:03.590 --> 01:23:08.770
of the couch. So June, July, everything starts

01:23:08.770 --> 01:23:13.489
up again. Now, mind you, very, very, very heavy

01:23:13.489 --> 01:23:17.829
into alcohol for years. Shots. I was drinking

01:23:17.829 --> 01:23:22.550
myself away, drinking away the pain and the nightmares

01:23:22.550 --> 01:23:25.600
still. even being away from the city. And it

01:23:25.600 --> 01:23:27.819
was messing up with my health too. You know,

01:23:27.920 --> 01:23:31.880
my pancreatitis a couple of times. And, you know,

01:23:31.920 --> 01:23:34.100
I just, you can see the difference in me over

01:23:34.100 --> 01:23:36.319
the years with the weight gain from the drinking

01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:38.960
and stuff like that. And, you know, I guess when

01:23:38.960 --> 01:23:43.859
my brother died, you know, that kind of stopped

01:23:43.859 --> 01:23:47.619
the whole drinking thing. He died from alcoholism.

01:23:47.680 --> 01:23:50.579
You know, I had that on my mind. And his sickness

01:23:50.579 --> 01:23:54.489
and death caused even more. personal things that

01:23:54.489 --> 01:24:00.850
affected what i already deal with with ptsd that's

01:24:00.850 --> 01:24:02.590
got me second guessing everything in my life

01:24:02.590 --> 01:24:08.710
you know so um basically what i did was i i i

01:24:08.710 --> 01:24:12.989
try to take everything that i've experienced

01:24:12.989 --> 01:24:16.649
and share it with the next generation and i've

01:24:16.649 --> 01:24:18.670
been fortunate enough up here in monroe county

01:24:18.670 --> 01:24:22.600
i've talked to multiple career departments their

01:24:22.600 --> 01:24:25.539
officers, their new recruits for their survival

01:24:25.539 --> 01:24:28.619
week. And I've shared my story in depth on Deutsche

01:24:28.619 --> 01:24:32.300
Bank and what happened to me after and told them,

01:24:32.300 --> 01:24:36.020
look, going forward, the stigma, and that's the

01:24:36.020 --> 01:24:38.859
biggest problem as a first responder, is there's

01:24:38.859 --> 01:24:41.739
still a stigma that if you talk about what's

01:24:41.739 --> 01:24:44.340
going on in your mind with a bad call, that you're

01:24:44.340 --> 01:24:46.939
not a man, you're not a woman, you're a piece

01:24:46.939 --> 01:24:50.840
of garbage, or you're weak. That stigma still

01:24:50.840 --> 01:24:54.930
does exist. i'm trying to break that just like

01:24:54.930 --> 01:24:57.130
what you're doing you're definitely breaking

01:24:57.130 --> 01:24:59.010
the stigma because you're getting people to open

01:24:59.010 --> 01:25:02.289
up and talk about traumatic events that dictated

01:25:02.289 --> 01:25:07.430
their futures you know um but that fire is constantly

01:25:07.430 --> 01:25:09.329
with me every day and it's going to be with me

01:25:09.329 --> 01:25:13.430
every day and uh yeah that's that's pretty much

01:25:13.430 --> 01:25:18.189
uh yeah well firstly i mean what's interesting

01:25:18.189 --> 01:25:23.140
is As you mentioned, when you completed the flag

01:25:23.140 --> 01:25:26.399
tour and you didn't have as much to occupy you,

01:25:26.500 --> 01:25:28.680
that's when it really reared its head. And I've

01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:31.840
made this observation a lot more recently. We

01:25:31.840 --> 01:25:33.939
have, as we affectionately call, the overtime

01:25:33.939 --> 01:25:37.340
horse in the fire service. And the question is

01:25:37.340 --> 01:25:39.680
always, why would you not want to go home? And

01:25:39.680 --> 01:25:41.699
the more I learn, the more I realize, well, it's

01:25:41.699 --> 01:25:44.359
probably a huge red flag for someone who's trying

01:25:44.359 --> 01:25:47.800
to... fill the downtime with busyness so they

01:25:47.800 --> 01:25:49.420
don't have to think, whether it's conscious or

01:25:49.420 --> 01:25:51.340
subconscious. Some of these people, it's probably

01:25:51.340 --> 01:25:53.220
from their childhood. It's probably from some

01:25:53.220 --> 01:25:56.039
trauma that they never addressed. But yeah, when

01:25:56.039 --> 01:25:59.239
you're constantly busy, we talk about alcoholism,

01:25:59.260 --> 01:26:03.020
we talk about pills, we talk about gambling and

01:26:03.020 --> 01:26:05.239
infidelity and all these other kind of red flags,

01:26:05.399 --> 01:26:09.119
but busyness. If you are seeking overtime, working

01:26:09.119 --> 01:26:12.460
other jobs, constantly going and traveling away

01:26:12.460 --> 01:26:15.470
from your family for conferences, There's a balance,

01:26:15.470 --> 01:26:17.970
of course, between being a passionate firefighter

01:26:17.970 --> 01:26:21.170
and wanting to learn. But conversely, if you're

01:26:21.170 --> 01:26:23.789
just constantly all in with the fire service,

01:26:23.970 --> 01:26:26.109
are you actually avoiding something that you

01:26:26.109 --> 01:26:29.550
need to be addressing? And if it's just left

01:26:29.550 --> 01:26:31.569
unaddressed and all of a sudden you're not busy

01:26:31.569 --> 01:26:34.270
anymore for whatever reason, the flag tour in

01:26:34.270 --> 01:26:37.130
your case, now all of a sudden Pandora's box

01:26:37.130 --> 01:26:40.930
just explodes open. Yeah. And that's something

01:26:40.930 --> 01:26:44.750
too. I definitely didn't do these things because

01:26:44.750 --> 01:26:46.930
I wanted to forget that fire. I did these things

01:26:46.930 --> 01:26:49.390
because I was enjoying it, you know, and I didn't

01:26:49.390 --> 01:26:54.369
know how dependent my life was without having

01:26:54.369 --> 01:26:58.189
something like that to do, you know, and, but

01:26:58.189 --> 01:26:59.630
there were a lot of triggers too. And there's

01:26:59.630 --> 01:27:02.369
still triggers, you know, even to this day, I

01:27:02.369 --> 01:27:04.810
can't walk into an elevator without having my

01:27:04.810 --> 01:27:07.729
face directed in which I know the way out is.

01:27:08.069 --> 01:27:11.210
I have a very difficult time going into high

01:27:11.210 --> 01:27:14.689
rise buildings. I count doors. I count floors.

01:27:14.810 --> 01:27:17.350
I look for everything. If I have to go, where

01:27:17.350 --> 01:27:19.510
am I going this way, that way? How many doors

01:27:19.510 --> 01:27:21.930
do we need to pass? My wife thought I was crazy

01:27:21.930 --> 01:27:23.470
a couple weeks ago. We were on the 10th floor

01:27:23.470 --> 01:27:27.029
of a 10 -story hotel. And I knew it was six seconds

01:27:27.029 --> 01:27:29.529
from the elevator to the first door. And I knew

01:27:29.529 --> 01:27:31.710
that there were 14 doors. And I knew that there

01:27:31.710 --> 01:27:33.710
was six doors on the other end that would get

01:27:33.710 --> 01:27:36.130
me to another exit. And I did this three times

01:27:36.130 --> 01:27:38.970
just to make sure I burned it into my head. And

01:27:38.970 --> 01:27:42.310
when I would go out of the room, I would close

01:27:42.310 --> 01:27:43.909
my eyes going out. I wouldn't even have to open

01:27:43.909 --> 01:27:46.010
my eyes. I knew exactly where I was going. You

01:27:46.010 --> 01:27:48.210
know, that's an effect of what I dealt with with

01:27:48.210 --> 01:27:50.569
that fire. You know, there's buildings I can't

01:27:50.569 --> 01:27:52.909
go into that remind me. And I can't go into crawl

01:27:52.909 --> 01:27:56.390
spaces too much anymore. You know, and these

01:27:56.390 --> 01:27:58.270
are all from being trapped in that building.

01:27:58.310 --> 01:28:00.449
And I'll tell you, bro, I never thought I would

01:28:00.449 --> 01:28:02.550
hear myself on a radio giving a mayday. I never

01:28:02.550 --> 01:28:05.310
thought in my life that that would happen. And

01:28:05.310 --> 01:28:11.170
I heard it. And I can hear it like it was yesterday.

01:28:11.710 --> 01:28:13.810
You know, and I hate Saturdays. I absolutely

01:28:13.810 --> 01:28:15.810
hate Saturdays because that fire was on a Saturday.

01:28:16.550 --> 01:28:19.890
You know, my dad died on a Saturday. You know,

01:28:19.909 --> 01:28:23.010
there's certain things that it's crazy what the

01:28:23.010 --> 01:28:26.010
mind does. You know, but I've been fortunate

01:28:26.010 --> 01:28:29.770
to step away from the booze and drink myself.

01:28:31.510 --> 01:28:33.789
And even I've had the breakdown last Sunday.

01:28:33.829 --> 01:28:36.890
You know, I didn't want drugs and I didn't want

01:28:36.890 --> 01:28:40.109
alcohol. And I worked the problem. I worked through

01:28:40.109 --> 01:28:44.659
it. But it's still with me and it could take

01:28:44.659 --> 01:28:46.659
months before I get back to where I was before.

01:28:47.420 --> 01:28:49.600
And I hadn't felt that bad since the breakdown

01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:54.859
in 2012. But yeah, the mind's a tricky thing.

01:28:55.979 --> 01:28:58.279
Well, you talked about how it's helped telling

01:28:58.279 --> 01:29:00.739
your story to the next generation. You talked

01:29:00.739 --> 01:29:03.119
about how some of these medications have been

01:29:03.119 --> 01:29:07.119
of help. What other tools have you found help

01:29:07.119 --> 01:29:09.920
move the needle without medication and or alcohol?

01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:17.380
You know, going out and talking to these youngsters,

01:29:17.560 --> 01:29:21.100
you know, I've had a few of them reach out to

01:29:21.100 --> 01:29:23.500
me after my little lectures. You know, I don't

01:29:23.500 --> 01:29:26.840
charge for these things. I share my story. You

01:29:26.840 --> 01:29:28.680
know, you got a T -shirt, a patch or a sticker.

01:29:28.819 --> 01:29:33.600
Sounds good. You know, and that that has helped

01:29:33.600 --> 01:29:38.579
me because I have a plan and it seems to be working.

01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:43.800
You know, I'm on my second year doing this. If

01:29:43.800 --> 01:29:46.079
I didn't think it was going to work, I would

01:29:46.079 --> 01:29:48.399
have given up. But I just thought people shoot

01:29:48.399 --> 01:29:50.819
a text once in a while, so it's worth me trying.

01:29:51.399 --> 01:29:54.939
Because I feel if I can, you know, it takes a

01:29:54.939 --> 01:29:57.300
strong person or a crazy person to walk into

01:29:57.300 --> 01:29:59.100
a room of total strangers and admit you pissed

01:29:59.100 --> 01:30:02.340
the bed for two years. And I'll tell you, I've

01:30:02.340 --> 01:30:05.899
driven, I don't even remember how I got there.

01:30:05.920 --> 01:30:09.229
I got on the car one night. I drove west on 80,

01:30:09.369 --> 01:30:12.909
ended up in Ohio, drive back and come back via

01:30:12.909 --> 01:30:16.689
Rochester, check into a hotel, go to sleep, have

01:30:16.689 --> 01:30:18.770
a nightmare, piss to bed, pack my bag and get

01:30:18.770 --> 01:30:20.210
in the car and drive right back to New York City.

01:30:21.350 --> 01:30:26.710
There were so many negative things and I share

01:30:26.710 --> 01:30:30.550
that with people in the hopes that they don't

01:30:30.550 --> 01:30:33.789
make the mistakes that I did. You can pick up

01:30:33.789 --> 01:30:37.229
the phone and call. Don't get that last bottle

01:30:37.229 --> 01:30:39.770
of Jameson. We don't need you wrapping yourself

01:30:39.770 --> 01:30:43.729
around a tree. But that's what I try to do without

01:30:43.729 --> 01:30:48.409
taking edibles or alcohol is try to focus on

01:30:48.409 --> 01:30:51.409
how I can get the story out and help the next

01:30:51.409 --> 01:30:56.909
gen. What about the psychedelic route? Actually,

01:30:56.930 --> 01:30:59.750
I was just talking to one of my friends, John

01:30:59.750 --> 01:31:02.880
Walters, Rescue One. And, you know, now a lot

01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:05.819
of that community are starting to lean into that,

01:31:05.819 --> 01:31:07.859
too. A lot of the Navy SEALs really led the charge,

01:31:07.939 --> 01:31:10.720
I think, for uniform professions. But now we're

01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:13.680
seeing the 343 Fund and some of these other organizations

01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:16.199
opening up and really pulling our profession

01:31:16.199 --> 01:31:18.640
in as well. And you're hearing a lot of success

01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:20.619
stories. And, of course, it's not a magic bullet.

01:31:21.229 --> 01:31:23.430
But it's a tool. It's another way of unlocking

01:31:23.430 --> 01:31:26.670
some of these boxes that were just not available

01:31:26.670 --> 01:31:30.310
to us 5, 10, 15 years ago. Have you looked into

01:31:30.310 --> 01:31:35.289
that route yourself? So I take my edibles. And

01:31:35.289 --> 01:31:39.909
it's been a life changer. Four years now, I have

01:31:39.909 --> 01:31:41.789
a buddy that made some really good chocolate.

01:31:42.409 --> 01:31:46.109
They've helped me get a good night's sleep. I've

01:31:46.109 --> 01:31:49.909
had good dreams. The good dreams have definitely

01:31:49.909 --> 01:31:53.550
outweighed the bad. The nightmare is still there.

01:31:54.289 --> 01:31:58.109
They're intense but not as vivid as they used

01:31:58.109 --> 01:32:01.729
to be. Probably because I'm still trying to desensitize

01:32:01.729 --> 01:32:03.949
myself from it by talking about it so much. But

01:32:03.949 --> 01:32:08.170
it actually feels better for me because I feel

01:32:08.170 --> 01:32:11.109
like I can put more together now than I could

01:32:11.109 --> 01:32:14.529
before. The pill medications that they had me

01:32:14.529 --> 01:32:17.159
on, the side effects were insane. I'm either

01:32:17.159 --> 01:32:20.579
gaining 30 pounds or I have no appetite or my

01:32:20.579 --> 01:32:23.939
stomach's a disaster. I mean, I firmly believe

01:32:23.939 --> 01:32:25.560
my stomach problems are because all of these

01:32:25.560 --> 01:32:27.939
meds that they gave me, you know, trying to figure

01:32:27.939 --> 01:32:30.359
out what's going to help me get sleep. You know,

01:32:30.380 --> 01:32:37.479
it was so bad for that period of time that, like,

01:32:37.539 --> 01:32:40.739
I couldn't even exist. If I got three hours of

01:32:40.739 --> 01:32:44.800
sleep a day, that was a miracle. You know, but

01:32:44.800 --> 01:32:47.460
the edibles have helped calm me down a little

01:32:47.460 --> 01:32:50.359
bit, you know. I mean, I only do them when I'm

01:32:50.359 --> 01:32:52.020
home. I don't, you know, I don't go to work or

01:32:52.020 --> 01:32:53.659
anything like that, you know. And I also try

01:32:53.659 --> 01:32:55.739
to bide my time with side work and stuff too,

01:32:55.819 --> 01:33:00.140
you know. But, yeah, I'm glad that the brothers

01:33:00.140 --> 01:33:01.619
and sisters are allowed to do the marijuana.

01:33:02.300 --> 01:33:04.739
I'll come right out and say it because I think

01:33:04.739 --> 01:33:07.380
it's better and safer than alcohol, you know.

01:33:07.399 --> 01:33:13.350
And I think if they do it right. It can help

01:33:13.350 --> 01:33:16.229
them deal with what they're dealing with. Yeah.

01:33:16.310 --> 01:33:19.649
Well, I mean, not just the CBD or the THC, but

01:33:19.649 --> 01:33:22.430
also you've got, you know, ayahuasca, psilocybin,

01:33:22.550 --> 01:33:26.430
you know, 5 -MeO -DMT, MDMA -led psychotherapy,

01:33:26.710 --> 01:33:29.229
you know, ketamine. There's so many other areas

01:33:29.229 --> 01:33:31.970
now. And for acute events like yours, I mean,

01:33:31.989 --> 01:33:35.510
they're extremely successful. MDMA, for example,

01:33:35.670 --> 01:33:36.930
you know, you're leading through it, but you're

01:33:36.930 --> 01:33:40.260
not having this physiological response. And when

01:33:40.260 --> 01:33:43.039
you talk about the bedwetting and the night terrors,

01:33:43.079 --> 01:33:46.039
I had that when I was young. And it's funny because

01:33:46.039 --> 01:33:48.260
for the whole time I was a firefighter, I'd kind

01:33:48.260 --> 01:33:50.260
of locked this memory away, but I was in a house

01:33:50.260 --> 01:33:52.699
fire when I was four, like legitimately almost

01:33:52.699 --> 01:33:56.460
died. And then lo and behold, I have night terrors

01:33:56.460 --> 01:33:58.239
when I'm young and I'm literally, my parents

01:33:58.239 --> 01:34:00.939
found me climbing out of the third story window

01:34:00.939 --> 01:34:03.479
about to plunge to my death. So I had bars on

01:34:03.479 --> 01:34:05.640
my windows as a child. That kind of tells you,

01:34:05.659 --> 01:34:09.420
I used to wet the bed through to my early, early,

01:34:09.460 --> 01:34:12.119
if not mid teens, like, you know, embarrassingly

01:34:12.119 --> 01:34:13.960
old at that point. So I'm going to put that out

01:34:13.960 --> 01:34:16.520
there too. This is the thing. And where did that

01:34:16.520 --> 01:34:18.979
come from? Well, clearly it was trauma. I just

01:34:18.979 --> 01:34:20.579
didn't, no one was talking about it when I was

01:34:20.579 --> 01:34:23.640
young. You know, I was just a bedwetter. Here's

01:34:23.640 --> 01:34:25.220
more shame and guilt to your shame and guilt.

01:34:25.319 --> 01:34:28.439
So, so yeah, but I mean, seeing this toolbox

01:34:28.439 --> 01:34:31.279
just gets so much bigger now and these kind of

01:34:31.279 --> 01:34:34.619
psychedelic. um compounds that are allowing people

01:34:34.619 --> 01:34:37.359
to revisit these traumas and reframe them in

01:34:37.359 --> 01:34:40.420
a completely different way where it's not creating

01:34:40.420 --> 01:34:42.739
nightmares anymore if you haven't gone down that

01:34:42.739 --> 01:34:45.579
road yet it's you'll be you'll be amazed and

01:34:45.579 --> 01:34:47.539
probably excited about some of the results you're

01:34:47.539 --> 01:34:50.239
seeing from some of the other fdny men and women

01:34:50.239 --> 01:34:53.359
that have gone through it yeah see i feel i i

01:34:53.359 --> 01:34:56.039
feel i'm in a good place you know a couple weeks

01:34:56.039 --> 01:35:05.250
ago a couple I shut my phone down, I turn off

01:35:05.250 --> 01:35:08.029
Facebook, and I only talk to my wife and a couple

01:35:08.029 --> 01:35:12.010
of people. I feel bad. My wife asked me last

01:35:12.010 --> 01:35:13.729
night, I'm going to get tickets to this when

01:35:13.729 --> 01:35:16.550
it goes. No, I'm not there yet. I don't want

01:35:16.550 --> 01:35:21.949
to be out in public yet like that because I still

01:35:21.949 --> 01:35:26.710
have things that are lingering. I also don't

01:35:26.710 --> 01:35:29.550
want to take any more pills. I really, truly

01:35:29.550 --> 01:35:32.939
in my heart believe the medication. I was a pincushion

01:35:32.939 --> 01:35:36.539
of antidepressants, antipsychotics. I mean, one

01:35:36.539 --> 01:35:37.920
of those things had me in the hospital with a

01:35:37.920 --> 01:35:40.060
damn pariprism. You know, I drive to the hospital

01:35:40.060 --> 01:35:41.939
in a towel. You know, they don't tell you that

01:35:41.939 --> 01:35:43.619
on the side effects. And that could have been

01:35:43.619 --> 01:35:46.760
really bad for me. Any other guy, for that matter,

01:35:46.840 --> 01:35:52.659
you know. But, I mean, those edibles have seemed

01:35:52.659 --> 01:35:56.649
to have helped me out, you know. keep me calm

01:35:56.649 --> 01:35:58.630
and if these things are working for the other

01:35:58.630 --> 01:36:02.109
other uh members uh that's great you know you

01:36:02.109 --> 01:36:03.569
know somebody asked me if i want to try shrooms

01:36:03.569 --> 01:36:06.850
i'm like yeah no i'm not going to do that um

01:36:06.850 --> 01:36:10.189
i don't want one of these nightmares to kick

01:36:10.189 --> 01:36:13.130
in that would definitely cause problems i think

01:36:13.130 --> 01:36:16.409
yeah i mean the one that i want to do i'm going

01:36:16.409 --> 01:36:19.909
to do um is the mdma -led psychotherapy because

01:36:19.909 --> 01:36:24.560
that one is you know it's more kind of reducing

01:36:24.560 --> 01:36:26.239
the body's response to it it's not that you're

01:36:26.239 --> 01:36:28.560
prescribed it you go and you do it while you're

01:36:28.560 --> 01:36:30.619
sitting with a counselor and they help you unpack

01:36:30.619 --> 01:36:32.899
some of the things and uh you know that's the

01:36:32.899 --> 01:36:35.340
one i've tried recreationally a long time ago

01:36:35.340 --> 01:36:38.479
so i i'm familiar with that compound and i just

01:36:38.479 --> 01:36:40.039
danced a lot and hugged a bunch of people when

01:36:40.039 --> 01:36:43.340
i was doing it but um but also it's like i don't

01:36:43.340 --> 01:36:45.579
know what else is there because it's not you

01:36:45.579 --> 01:36:48.800
know, ironically, totally conversely to my childhood,

01:36:48.899 --> 01:36:51.539
then I do a whole career, well, a 14 year career

01:36:51.539 --> 01:36:54.460
in the fire service. And I don't have the nightmares

01:36:54.460 --> 01:36:56.680
and I don't have what so many other people have,

01:36:56.819 --> 01:36:59.119
but I have the brain fog and I have the fatigue

01:36:59.119 --> 01:37:02.140
and I have, you know, so there's this, obviously

01:37:02.140 --> 01:37:04.380
it's going to take its toll, whether it's bothering

01:37:04.380 --> 01:37:06.180
you or not, it's still going to have an impact

01:37:06.180 --> 01:37:08.300
of 14 years of all the horrible shit that we

01:37:08.300 --> 01:37:11.359
see. So I'm, I want to do it just to see, okay,

01:37:11.420 --> 01:37:14.449
what am I not? And it might be, again, nothing

01:37:14.449 --> 01:37:16.229
to do with the fire service and everything to

01:37:16.229 --> 01:37:20.489
do with my early life. But I trust that particular

01:37:20.489 --> 01:37:23.890
compound in a way that I know that, you know,

01:37:23.909 --> 01:37:26.670
it would be a very positive experience. But it's

01:37:26.670 --> 01:37:28.609
just knowing that those are even options, I think,

01:37:28.609 --> 01:37:30.270
is exciting for a lot of people that have lost

01:37:30.270 --> 01:37:32.729
hope. Because, you know, so many people have

01:37:32.729 --> 01:37:34.890
heard that story. Well, I saw a counselor that

01:37:34.890 --> 01:37:37.010
gave me a bunch of meds, especially the VA stories.

01:37:37.590 --> 01:37:40.010
And, you know, it made me realize that I am broken

01:37:40.010 --> 01:37:42.460
and I may as well just end it now. But if you

01:37:42.460 --> 01:37:44.939
tell them, no, no, no, that's 10 % of what's

01:37:44.939 --> 01:37:47.739
actually available there from what I've just

01:37:47.739 --> 01:37:49.520
talked about through the equine therapy, through

01:37:49.520 --> 01:37:52.260
the retreats, through the, you know, all these

01:37:52.260 --> 01:37:54.239
other areas. Well, now you can say, okay, well,

01:37:54.319 --> 01:37:56.539
I like this bit and this seems interesting to

01:37:56.539 --> 01:37:58.760
me and I've always loved horses. And now you

01:37:58.760 --> 01:38:01.140
start putting this together. But if you tell

01:38:01.140 --> 01:38:04.020
people that all that's available to them is talking

01:38:04.020 --> 01:38:06.600
to someone and popping pills, well, I think that's

01:38:06.600 --> 01:38:09.460
where a lot of the desperation comes from. Yeah.

01:38:10.789 --> 01:38:13.449
Yeah, my wife and I went and talked to a counselor

01:38:13.449 --> 01:38:15.069
because there were some other issues going on.

01:38:15.510 --> 01:38:18.989
And I'd gone in there and she said, you know,

01:38:19.010 --> 01:38:20.390
Jimmy, there's really nothing I can do for you.

01:38:20.470 --> 01:38:23.270
I was like, no, there's not. You don't have to

01:38:23.270 --> 01:38:25.369
talk about anything. I said, no, I don't. I have

01:38:25.369 --> 01:38:29.350
everything in control, you know, and I think

01:38:29.350 --> 01:38:32.189
I'm managing everything better than a lot of

01:38:32.189 --> 01:38:35.369
other people would. I mean, if I went on and

01:38:35.369 --> 01:38:39.310
explained what I'm dealing with with my family

01:38:39.310 --> 01:38:44.250
right now. It would it would it's a rabbit hole

01:38:44.250 --> 01:38:48.770
that there's no escape from, you know, and that

01:38:48.770 --> 01:38:55.890
takes a toll. And, you know, you know, if I thought

01:38:55.890 --> 01:38:59.649
I needed to go talk to a counselor, I would.

01:38:59.770 --> 01:39:02.289
But I feel like I've I've gotten to a point that

01:39:02.289 --> 01:39:05.670
I know how to keep everything in check, if that

01:39:05.670 --> 01:39:09.619
makes any sense right now. You know, I know that

01:39:09.619 --> 01:39:12.039
I had a couple of guys from the job come up and

01:39:12.039 --> 01:39:14.119
they came to a lecture that I did a couple of

01:39:14.119 --> 01:39:17.300
weeks ago. And one of the guys has been texting

01:39:17.300 --> 01:39:20.000
me that he thinks this helped him a little bit.

01:39:20.020 --> 01:39:22.600
And this is a guy that worked 9 -11, you know,

01:39:22.600 --> 01:39:25.420
and, you know, when are we doing it again? So,

01:39:25.539 --> 01:39:29.000
you know, I now know that this is going to help

01:39:29.000 --> 01:39:31.600
somebody. And then talking with you and doing

01:39:31.600 --> 01:39:35.819
this with you, you know, I really believe that.

01:39:36.820 --> 01:39:38.760
people are going to see this and be like, wow,

01:39:38.899 --> 01:39:41.260
you know, this guy can get through what he's

01:39:41.260 --> 01:39:44.380
dealing with. I can get through it too. James,

01:39:44.439 --> 01:39:46.399
thanks a lot, man. This is great what you're

01:39:46.399 --> 01:39:48.920
doing. You know, and then the next guy sees it

01:39:48.920 --> 01:39:50.340
and the next girl sees it. The next thing you

01:39:50.340 --> 01:39:52.800
know, you got everybody trying to get themselves

01:39:52.800 --> 01:39:55.579
back on the same page, but educating the next

01:39:55.579 --> 01:39:59.390
generation at the same time. Absolutely. And

01:39:59.390 --> 01:40:02.010
not giving that environment of suck it up, buttercup,

01:40:02.109 --> 01:40:04.329
rub some dirt in it that, you know, our generation

01:40:04.329 --> 01:40:07.369
was raised in because that is the mentality that

01:40:07.369 --> 01:40:09.229
puts people in the ground. Don't get me wrong.

01:40:09.310 --> 01:40:11.329
You can't be a pussy and be a firefighter either.

01:40:11.409 --> 01:40:13.810
I get that part completely. That's why we have

01:40:13.810 --> 01:40:17.010
an aggressive academy and probation. But yeah,

01:40:17.109 --> 01:40:19.470
after that, you know, you've got to be in the

01:40:19.470 --> 01:40:22.430
flow state, you know, have that kind of, you

01:40:22.430 --> 01:40:24.890
know, go to work mentality. But after you have

01:40:24.890 --> 01:40:27.640
to allow people. to process what they've seen.

01:40:27.720 --> 01:40:30.260
And then again, at the front door, understanding

01:40:30.260 --> 01:40:33.180
that most of us say, I want to be there when

01:40:33.180 --> 01:40:35.939
most people don't. There's a reason for that.

01:40:36.000 --> 01:40:39.920
And addressing the first 18, 20, 25 years of

01:40:39.920 --> 01:40:41.800
someone's life at the front door and saying,

01:40:41.840 --> 01:40:45.479
hey, what led you into this profession is an

01:40:45.479 --> 01:40:47.979
opportunity for us to start doing some work mentally

01:40:47.979 --> 01:40:51.899
as well to turn that into resilience. trauma

01:40:51.899 --> 01:40:54.579
into an asset, into scars that you're proud of

01:40:54.579 --> 01:40:58.199
rather than the debilitating ones. Yeah. I've

01:40:58.199 --> 01:41:01.779
also seen, and there will never be mentions of

01:41:01.779 --> 01:41:04.640
organizations, but it's definitely common around

01:41:04.640 --> 01:41:09.140
the country. You got some organizations that

01:41:09.140 --> 01:41:15.399
are keeping the real truth about PTSD, trauma,

01:41:15.619 --> 01:41:18.100
bad fires, bad car accidents, bad motorcycle

01:41:18.100 --> 01:41:21.170
accidents. From the next generation of members

01:41:21.170 --> 01:41:25.369
coming up, you know, you can't you can't. They

01:41:25.369 --> 01:41:27.949
got to stop doing that. You got to expose them

01:41:27.949 --> 01:41:33.149
to the realities of it. As soon as you can. One,

01:41:33.270 --> 01:41:35.449
they need to be mentally prepared for what they

01:41:35.449 --> 01:41:38.670
may see or they may not see. And two, you know,

01:41:38.670 --> 01:41:41.729
I would feel a lot better knowing that the person

01:41:41.729 --> 01:41:43.890
that's behind me isn't going to up and bail out

01:41:43.890 --> 01:41:45.829
because something went on. You know what I mean?

01:41:46.699 --> 01:41:50.500
Or somebody is unable to do CPR on a patient

01:41:50.500 --> 01:41:53.420
or somebody is unable to help take down that

01:41:53.420 --> 01:41:57.000
person hanging in a garage. You know, that's

01:41:57.000 --> 01:41:59.720
something that they need to work on, too. But

01:41:59.720 --> 01:42:03.140
they got to get the word out that mental health

01:42:03.140 --> 01:42:06.100
is a very big part of being a first responder.

01:42:07.119 --> 01:42:09.279
You know, and listen, it's not for everybody.

01:42:09.920 --> 01:42:12.140
You know, I don't think about any of the horrible

01:42:12.140 --> 01:42:15.619
EMS calls that I've seen. I think about one fire.

01:42:17.330 --> 01:42:19.369
One. You know, unless somebody asked me, like,

01:42:19.409 --> 01:42:22.409
if I see Tinkerbell, I got to turn it off, you

01:42:22.409 --> 01:42:25.050
know, because I had a car accident where a woman

01:42:25.050 --> 01:42:27.989
had Tinkerbell seat covers. We got her out alive.

01:42:28.210 --> 01:42:30.409
I talked to her and she died in the ambulance.

01:42:31.010 --> 01:42:33.369
You know, but I don't think about that 24 -7.

01:42:33.789 --> 01:42:37.329
You know, I don't think of the young mother trying

01:42:37.329 --> 01:42:39.789
to kill her newborn baby and me launching that

01:42:39.789 --> 01:42:42.069
mother into the toilet bowl. You know, I don't

01:42:42.069 --> 01:42:43.550
think about that every day. I'm pretty sure she's

01:42:43.550 --> 01:42:47.739
still in hell, but, you know. Yeah, the mental

01:42:47.739 --> 01:42:51.279
health aspect of this and what you're doing I

01:42:51.279 --> 01:42:54.100
think is fantastic. With the book and this, you

01:42:54.100 --> 01:42:58.319
get the stories out there for everybody to come

01:42:58.319 --> 01:43:01.460
to terms with what they're dealing with by seeing

01:43:01.460 --> 01:43:02.899
that other people are going through the same

01:43:02.899 --> 01:43:05.539
thing. Yeah, exactly. It's the thing. And we've

01:43:05.539 --> 01:43:07.100
been talking about mental health in the uniform,

01:43:07.180 --> 01:43:09.140
but it extends out. And I would argue even that

01:43:09.140 --> 01:43:11.000
mother, clearly she was going through some stuff

01:43:11.000 --> 01:43:13.800
herself. And this is it. If we can stop this

01:43:13.800 --> 01:43:15.819
generational trauma, these dominoes that are

01:43:15.819 --> 01:43:18.399
just falling one onto the other onto the other,

01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:22.180
then the amount of acute calls that first responders

01:43:22.180 --> 01:43:24.720
go to would get less and there'd be less exposure

01:43:24.720 --> 01:43:28.779
to trauma. I think it's what maddens me so much

01:43:28.779 --> 01:43:31.020
is there are answers. Doesn't mean you can save

01:43:31.020 --> 01:43:32.640
everyone. Doesn't mean certainly that you can

01:43:32.640 --> 01:43:35.960
stop every, you know, trauma and every war and

01:43:35.960 --> 01:43:39.020
every, you know, domestic abuse and every addiction

01:43:39.020 --> 01:43:40.939
and suicide. But my God, you could make such

01:43:40.939 --> 01:43:43.720
a huge dent. You could save so many from that.

01:43:43.840 --> 01:43:46.760
But, you know, it takes courage and it takes

01:43:46.760 --> 01:43:48.920
moral courage. And that's I think that circles

01:43:48.920 --> 01:43:51.489
around what we were saying earlier. I want to

01:43:51.489 --> 01:43:53.409
throw some quick closing questions out before

01:43:53.409 --> 01:43:56.390
I let you go. The first one I love to ask, is

01:43:56.390 --> 01:43:58.569
there a book or other books that you love to

01:43:58.569 --> 01:44:01.029
recommend? It can be related to our conversation

01:44:01.029 --> 01:44:05.909
today or completely unrelated. You know, American

01:44:05.909 --> 01:44:11.609
firefighter, PTSD, PTSI, Carla Lundlade, she's

01:44:11.609 --> 01:44:17.180
a clinical therapist. She has been. She actually

01:44:17.180 --> 01:44:20.479
interviewed me and a couple other FDNY members,

01:44:20.659 --> 01:44:25.119
and she put these things together as a training

01:44:25.119 --> 01:44:29.239
for PTSD, PTSI awareness with the first responder

01:44:29.239 --> 01:44:31.859
community. She's hoping to do it for police and

01:44:31.859 --> 01:44:35.640
military. And then about Deutsche Bank, about

01:44:35.640 --> 01:44:38.800
that fire, you can go on Amazon and write, the

01:44:38.800 --> 01:44:44.100
fix is in. Joey Graffagnino's father wrote it.

01:44:44.159 --> 01:44:46.260
And you can read that and you'll see pictures

01:44:46.260 --> 01:44:49.180
and you'll understand why that fire never should

01:44:49.180 --> 01:44:52.119
have happened in the first place. And understand

01:44:52.119 --> 01:44:55.020
the conditions that, you know, we were in. You

01:44:55.020 --> 01:44:57.260
know, when I do my little talks and stuff, I

01:44:57.260 --> 01:44:59.779
tell these guys, we could train, train, train

01:44:59.779 --> 01:45:02.880
all we want. But what we experienced that day,

01:45:03.039 --> 01:45:05.380
there was no training that could have helped

01:45:05.380 --> 01:45:08.659
us at that point. Because things happen that

01:45:08.659 --> 01:45:12.149
you couldn't expect. Which means... You have

01:45:12.149 --> 01:45:14.130
to expect the unexpected as a first responder.

01:45:14.770 --> 01:45:17.289
You know, we didn't think that far ahead, you

01:45:17.289 --> 01:45:20.630
know, but things have changed since. Beautiful.

01:45:20.649 --> 01:45:24.109
What about film, television, documentaries, any

01:45:24.109 --> 01:45:33.449
of that media? So, honestly, I would stay. I

01:45:33.449 --> 01:45:36.789
would stay off the World Wide Web with all of

01:45:36.789 --> 01:45:40.239
the political nonsense that's going on. And I

01:45:40.239 --> 01:45:44.399
would look at some of these organizations that

01:45:44.399 --> 01:45:48.520
are doing great things. A Soldier's Journey Home,

01:45:48.680 --> 01:45:52.880
they take first responders, 9 -11, firefighters,

01:45:53.399 --> 01:45:55.859
military, active and retired around the country,

01:45:55.899 --> 01:45:58.899
and they build a home for a soldier that's been

01:45:58.899 --> 01:46:03.340
injured. That's a Soldier's Journey Home. And

01:46:03.340 --> 01:46:06.420
there's a lot of groups out there that you could

01:46:06.420 --> 01:46:10.649
just pay it forward to. I feel that if people

01:46:10.649 --> 01:46:13.390
get involved in something like that, it's going

01:46:13.390 --> 01:46:16.529
to help them. And that's what I try to, when

01:46:16.529 --> 01:46:18.649
I do my talks and stuff, I explain to people

01:46:18.649 --> 01:46:20.430
that there are things out there. You know, there

01:46:20.430 --> 01:46:23.729
are things we can do, you know, and we can do

01:46:23.729 --> 01:46:27.850
it all together. You know, I recently, a year

01:46:27.850 --> 01:46:30.010
ago, maybe a little longer, I took a county fire

01:46:30.010 --> 01:46:33.529
test up here because three or four young people

01:46:33.529 --> 01:46:35.850
wanted to take the test. I'm like, you know what?

01:46:36.069 --> 01:46:37.869
If you're going to take this test, I will take

01:46:37.869 --> 01:46:40.479
it with you. two of them are actually in the

01:46:40.479 --> 01:46:44.640
fire academy you know so like if you go online

01:46:44.640 --> 01:46:47.300
there's a lot there's good you got to look if

01:46:47.300 --> 01:46:48.640
you write pay it forward you're going to see

01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:50.720
all kinds of things come up you can go look up

01:46:50.720 --> 01:46:55.159
um stars of hope uh new york says thank you the

01:46:55.159 --> 01:46:58.159
national 9 -11 flag and you know um you'll see

01:46:58.159 --> 01:47:00.500
all kinds of different groups and i think that

01:47:00.500 --> 01:47:04.170
might help people too absolutely Well, what about

01:47:04.170 --> 01:47:06.109
guests? Is there a person that you'd recommend

01:47:06.109 --> 01:47:09.289
to come on this show as a guest to speak to the

01:47:09.289 --> 01:47:11.609
first responders, military and associated professions

01:47:11.609 --> 01:47:18.409
of the world? You know, I'll tell you, I think.

01:47:21.989 --> 01:47:24.850
I don't know who I could recommend for you to

01:47:24.850 --> 01:47:28.470
talk to. I don't think a lot of those stories

01:47:28.470 --> 01:47:31.020
are ready to be told yet. I don't think a lot

01:47:31.020 --> 01:47:33.060
of these guys and girls are ready to talk about

01:47:33.060 --> 01:47:37.220
it yet. I mean, there are a couple people that

01:47:37.220 --> 01:47:39.960
I would recommend you talk to that could definitely

01:47:39.960 --> 01:47:47.960
open up your minds on people, open up their minds

01:47:47.960 --> 01:47:52.720
and help them. I'm going to have to think about

01:47:52.720 --> 01:47:55.340
that. Not everybody can talk about this stuff.

01:47:55.500 --> 01:47:58.930
You know that. Absolutely. That's why I'm always

01:47:58.930 --> 01:48:00.710
in awe of the people that do, you know, that

01:48:00.710 --> 01:48:02.510
courageous vulnerability, because it's what people

01:48:02.510 --> 01:48:05.109
need to hear. And we talk about stigma, not only

01:48:05.109 --> 01:48:07.130
the suicide, but the addiction side, you know,

01:48:07.130 --> 01:48:10.289
the opioid overdoses. And, you know, that, you

01:48:10.289 --> 01:48:12.850
know, I would argue is more shame and guilt.

01:48:12.909 --> 01:48:15.010
You can be an alcoholic, that's fine. But God

01:48:15.010 --> 01:48:18.029
forbid you use, you know, meth or opioids and

01:48:18.029 --> 01:48:20.470
you die that way, then, you know, we still kind

01:48:20.470 --> 01:48:22.489
of rush that under the carpet. So when people

01:48:22.489 --> 01:48:24.109
come out here and they talk about their struggles,

01:48:24.130 --> 01:48:26.739
especially, you know, with those. I think it

01:48:26.739 --> 01:48:29.340
really helps break the mold. You know, if you're

01:48:29.340 --> 01:48:31.079
struggling, then you fill the void with whatever

01:48:31.079 --> 01:48:33.279
the thing is that you fill the void with. You

01:48:33.279 --> 01:48:34.680
know, as we talked about, it might be overtime,

01:48:34.840 --> 01:48:37.520
it might be heroin. But, you know, it's the same

01:48:37.520 --> 01:48:40.439
problem. It's that trauma that you're trying

01:48:40.439 --> 01:48:43.899
to bury, basically. Yeah, I mean, I've basically

01:48:43.899 --> 01:48:47.039
taken my trauma and turned it into part of my

01:48:47.039 --> 01:48:50.279
French, my bitch. You know, it's going to be

01:48:50.279 --> 01:48:54.100
with me forever, but I'm going to use it. I'm

01:48:54.100 --> 01:48:56.359
going to abuse it. I'm going to burn it into

01:48:56.359 --> 01:48:59.840
people's heads, you know. And if I do it for

01:48:59.840 --> 01:49:03.899
five years, great. If I do it for five days,

01:49:04.140 --> 01:49:10.199
great, you know. I'm thankful that I didn't resort

01:49:10.199 --> 01:49:13.399
to other things that I did in the past, you know.

01:49:13.539 --> 01:49:17.319
I have my wife. I have a close, close network

01:49:17.319 --> 01:49:23.479
of people. And I'm in a good place that I didn't

01:49:23.479 --> 01:49:27.619
have that before. And every one of us at some

01:49:27.619 --> 01:49:29.960
point in our lives as a first responder, military

01:49:29.960 --> 01:49:33.319
as well, we get to a point where we think we've

01:49:33.319 --> 01:49:35.720
hit rock bottom. You know what? I did hit rock

01:49:35.720 --> 01:49:38.939
bottom and I got out. I went rock bottom two

01:49:38.939 --> 01:49:43.039
weeks ago. I'm still here. It's just something

01:49:43.039 --> 01:49:45.479
that we have to adapt and learn how to overcome.

01:49:46.020 --> 01:49:48.960
And if we can share that with each other, let

01:49:48.960 --> 01:49:51.579
people know, then we should be okay. Absolutely.

01:49:52.600 --> 01:49:54.640
Well, what do you do to decompress these days?

01:49:56.579 --> 01:49:58.619
This is different now because I'm not drinking.

01:49:58.680 --> 01:50:01.079
But whenever I'd have a detail or something or

01:50:01.079 --> 01:50:03.880
I have a talk, I'd go get a sandwich or I'd take

01:50:03.880 --> 01:50:09.840
a shot or have a drink or two. We went out after

01:50:09.840 --> 01:50:13.220
the last talk we did. We went out to Shamrock

01:50:13.220 --> 01:50:15.039
Jackson around the Quake, New York. These guys

01:50:15.039 --> 01:50:17.880
had a couple of drinks. I had a couple of Pepsis,

01:50:17.880 --> 01:50:20.640
you know, and I thought about, you know, everything,

01:50:20.819 --> 01:50:25.529
how it went. Got some good feedback. And I came

01:50:25.529 --> 01:50:27.890
home and I took an edible and I went to bed.

01:50:28.029 --> 01:50:31.609
And, you know, I'll sit down and watch the ends

01:50:31.609 --> 01:50:34.170
of my favorite movies. I'll play video games.

01:50:35.289 --> 01:50:37.310
It's leaf time, so I can go out with the leaf

01:50:37.310 --> 01:50:39.270
blower and the tractor and cut them up and blow

01:50:39.270 --> 01:50:43.829
them all up to the gutter. You know, go down

01:50:43.829 --> 01:50:46.430
to camp. My camp is actually coming home in a

01:50:46.430 --> 01:50:51.500
week, maybe. fire off some rounds you know at

01:50:51.500 --> 01:50:54.000
targets in the woods because you know it's a

01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:56.859
second amendment right and it's nice you know

01:50:56.859 --> 01:50:58.899
because you get down there like all right that's

01:50:58.899 --> 01:51:01.720
pretty good nice grouping there and that's it

01:51:01.720 --> 01:51:05.420
you know uh and clean i mean i it's committee

01:51:05.420 --> 01:51:07.140
work we call it in the firehouse but i committee

01:51:07.140 --> 01:51:09.739
work my house pretty much every day you know

01:51:09.739 --> 01:51:13.159
um running around cleaning um but then side work

01:51:13.159 --> 01:51:17.180
i mean that's how i decompress brilliant Well,

01:51:17.239 --> 01:51:20.180
I want to thank you so much for taking the time

01:51:20.180 --> 01:51:22.840
to come on. If people want to reach out to you,

01:51:22.880 --> 01:51:24.680
you know, learn more about you, maybe even get

01:51:24.680 --> 01:51:27.180
you in to talk, where are the best places online

01:51:27.180 --> 01:51:31.020
to find you? I mean, you got me on the Instagram.

01:51:32.680 --> 01:51:34.720
That's really the best way to find me right now.

01:51:34.800 --> 01:51:38.500
I think it's SeamusSands10. It's all lowercase

01:51:38.500 --> 01:51:40.960
if they want to reach out that way. But I have

01:51:40.960 --> 01:51:43.380
the YouTube that I have the videos and my little

01:51:43.380 --> 01:51:47.779
lectures on. Um, that's NYC fire guy. So they

01:51:47.779 --> 01:51:49.739
can go on there and they can see some of these

01:51:49.739 --> 01:51:52.800
lectures that I give, you know, um, I try to

01:51:52.800 --> 01:51:55.699
put them up and, uh, if people want to watch

01:51:55.699 --> 01:51:57.720
them, um, they can watch them and understand

01:51:57.720 --> 01:52:01.039
what that fire is about. You know, um, I do it

01:52:01.039 --> 01:52:04.020
two different ways. I talk with the career department

01:52:04.020 --> 01:52:06.319
one way and the volunteers the other way, because

01:52:06.319 --> 01:52:08.680
the career department, I go a little bit more

01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:10.579
in how you're supposed to be when you're brand

01:52:10.579 --> 01:52:13.699
new in a firehouse based on what I learned. But

01:52:13.699 --> 01:52:15.779
I don't do that with the volleys because it's

01:52:15.779 --> 01:52:18.739
not like that for them. You know, and then I

01:52:18.739 --> 01:52:21.239
get very, very dead on serious with the career

01:52:21.239 --> 01:52:23.680
than I do with the volleys because they're not

01:52:23.680 --> 01:52:25.180
career, if that makes any sense. But they get

01:52:25.180 --> 01:52:28.180
the same story. You know, I also don't want to

01:52:28.180 --> 01:52:32.579
terrify them either. Yeah, absolutely. Well,

01:52:32.640 --> 01:52:34.319
I want to thank you so much. It's been such an

01:52:34.319 --> 01:52:36.539
amazing conversation. Like I said, courageous

01:52:36.539 --> 01:52:38.859
vulnerability. And then also, you know, just

01:52:38.859 --> 01:52:41.819
underlining the fact that every time. Any of

01:52:41.819 --> 01:52:43.939
the people that come on this show have to revisit

01:52:43.939 --> 01:52:46.960
some of their traumas to tell this story. I understand

01:52:46.960 --> 01:52:49.039
that, you know, there's an element of catharsis,

01:52:49.039 --> 01:52:51.119
but also it is kind of reopening the wound a

01:52:51.119 --> 01:52:54.479
little bit. So I know, though, that as you alluded

01:52:54.479 --> 01:52:57.000
to earlier, that there are going to be so many

01:52:57.000 --> 01:52:59.380
people listening that are going to gain a lot

01:52:59.380 --> 01:53:01.500
from this conversation. So I want to thank you

01:53:01.500 --> 01:53:03.520
so much for being so generous with your time

01:53:03.520 --> 01:53:05.420
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.

01:53:06.199 --> 01:53:07.859
Thanks, brother. Stay safe, okay?