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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show FDNY veteran Jimmy Sands.
Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host
of topics, from his journey into the volunteer
fire service, getting hired at the FDNY, his
unique perspective of both 9 -11 and, more importantly,
9 -12, His firsthand account of the tragic Deutsche
Bank fire, the ripple effect of that event, his
powerful mental health story, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. Sans. Enjoy. Well, Jimmy, I want
to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank
you to Rebecca Trediani, if I've probably butchered
her name now, who I taught when I was a camp
counselor years ago, but she was the one that
made this connection. And secondly, I want to
welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast
today. Thank you, bro. Nice to meet you. So where
on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
I am in West Webster, New York, about three minutes
and 27 seconds from the south shore of Lake Ontario.
Beautiful. Well, I would love to start at the
very beginning of your story. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. All right. I'm the oldest of three.
My mother and father, James and Carol Sands.
I was born in Jackson Heights, Queens. We all
were raised in Queens, New York, Glendale and
Ridgewood, New York. kind of in the center of
Queens. Dad was a purchasing agent for a law
firm, Cravat Swannamore, Manhattan. And my mom
worked for an insurance company in downtown Manhattan.
What was the environment like back then? When
I think of Queens, I still think, you know, somewhat
urban, but I might be completely skewed in my
perspective. You know, what was the kind of neighborhood,
the environment like you were growing up in?
It was one of the most unique neighborhoods and
times that anyone could grow up. Where we grew
up in Glendale, we were surrounded by cemeteries
and we had Forest Park and that had a golf course
in it. You know, there's a huge park up there.
We all grew up in those neighborhoods, you know,
two -story taxpayers. Every street had a pizzeria
or a deli on it, you know. A lot of schools,
for the most part, growing up back then was really
special. You know, just, you know, regular everyday.
It's the early 80s. You know, you see these TV
shows. Yeah, it was like that. What about sports
and exercise? What were you playing and doing
back then? Oh, back then, I didn't really do
much. I just got into trouble. I was one of the
troublemakers in the neighborhood. And I was
also a Boy Scout. So I split my time evenly between
getting into trouble and getting grounded all
the time and going out learning about the wilderness
and camping and just, you know, just being a
scout, you know. And as far as sports, didn't
really play a whole lot. Softball here and there,
baseball when I was younger. But it's really
all I did. Besides working, learning to be an
electrician and, you know, having to go through
the newspaper and find ads for jobs. You know,
not like you can go online and fill out a resume
and send it in. But I started doing that and
that, you know, something that I still do today.
What about the fire service itself? Were you
exposed to firefighters, stations, et cetera,
when you were young? Yeah, so when we grew up
in Glendale, we had the Myrtle Turtles. They
were the Glendale Firehouse. When we were younger,
we'd go to tours of the firehouses down there.
When I was in Scouts, we had learned that the
call boxes in the five boroughs would be on the
light posts. there'd be an orange light up there
and they would be pointing in the direction of
an actual fire call box. So we learned that in
scouts and we were coming home from a scout meeting
one day and I saw smoke coming out of the attic
of a house on the way home. And I said, mom,
I think that house is on fire. So she pulled
over and I said, no, no, go over there. And I
looked at the light and I saw the thing. So I
was able to pull the call box. And, you know,
I mean, I wanted to be a firefighter since I
was a little kid. I mean, what kid doesn't? you
know, especially back then, you know, it was,
it was the cool thing to do, you know, and, uh,
you know, here we are today, all these years
later, um, you know, making it on that job. And,
you know, when we get to that, we get to that.
What about career aspirations? You mentioned
wanting to be a firefighter. Was that something
that was driving you the whole time or was there
another occupation in your mind too? You know,
I, we grew up and I grew up in a, in a different
time. Um, It's so hard to explain, but back then,
I was doing the construction. When I was younger,
I wanted to be an astronaut. That wasn't going
to happen. I had a GED, was going to go into
the military. I, uh, when I left New York city
for a couple of years, uh, to get my GED, I saw
what life was like outside of the city. And that's
ultimately what brought me up here to Western
New York. Um, it was just a different place,
you know, there was so much more to do and people
were nicer and, you know, I'm a city guy forever,
but I liked the niceness too, you know? Um, yeah,
I just, uh, I didn't know about the fire department
really until the volunteers kicked in in late
nineties. Um, that's what I was exposed to. Like,
wow, you can be a volunteer firefighter. And
then the talk about getting hired and taking
the test and stuff, you know, I can thank the
first volunteer department I was a member of,
you know, and then from that point on, I, my
whole life has been about the fire service. I,
when I've worked with Rebecca. She was in upstate
New York, Long Lake, New York, almost by the
Canadian border. And it was so interesting. You
know, you fly into New York, you're in Manhattan
for that night. And then off you go up to the
boonies, basically. And it's beautiful. You know,
mountains covered in pine trees and these lakes
everywhere. When you look at the contrast between
the two, my perspective is I feel like a lot
of the issues that we have in cities is that
people aren't supposed to be crammed on top of
each other like that. And it's almost like a
natural human expression to be angry and all
these other emotions that we see. What is your
perspective of that, this kind of more rural
community that you're in now versus this landscape
of skyscrapers that we have in our metropolitan
cities? It's night and day. you know we opened
the door for each other you know good morning
good morning good morning you know friendly conversation
you know i growing up in new york city you didn't
have that a lot you know there wasn't a lot of
really friendly conversation i mean we were raised
to respect everybody so i mean i've been opening
doors and holding doors for people my whole life
you know that's just how we were raised and uh
you know i had to get out of the city because
of that uh fire and You know, it's much more
peaceful up here. You know, we got a great lake.
I mean, I've swam in that lake. I've boated in
that lake. I got married in that lake, literally.
And the people are so great. And, you know, I've
been coming up here for a long time until I moved
up here, which is 11 years ago. It's just so
much nicer than the city. You know, I just, when
I go down there, I just, I hate being down there.
You know, I like to see the people that I care
about, but I just, I hate driving down there.
It's a much different driving down there. There's
no traffic up here. 10 minutes, that's it. You
know, I mean, it's fine for me. And then if I
want to go to Canada, like an hour away, it's
nice to be up here. There's a lot of stuff to
do up here too. Absolutely. It's interesting
because we're going to obviously get into the
first responder mental health conversation in
a little while. The number of people that have
come on the show and they may, like you, have
been part of an acute event. But actually, when
you start unpacking it, one of the biggest kind
of fractures in their foundation is their early
life before they ever put the uniform on. When
you reflect back now with this mature lens that
you have, were there any elements of your upbringing
you think that contributed to struggles later
in life? Oh, 100%. Like I said earlier, I grew
up in a... in a pretty interesting time. We had
a lot of fun. We did the graffiti. We hung out.
We had the parties. We had the fights. It was
just something that we all did. I took that lifestyle
with me for a few years after I got out of the
neighborhood. It wasn't until the fire service
changed things over. Some of the decisions I
made back then You know, I feel I lost like three
or four years of my life. I could have taken
that other fire department test. Maybe I'd be
already beyond. You know, maybe I would have
gone into the military. You know, if I hadn't
done the silly things I did when I was growing
up, you know, maybe I'd be a better student.
Maybe I would have gone through college. So a
lot of things that happened growing up affected
my life. But this fire service completely changed
it. It was almost like. going to sleep one night
and waking up the next day and you have a brand
new life. And everything that I've done since
I got on that job, even with the volunteers,
has been nothing but paying it forward and helping
people. And I did that before, but now I have
a lot of ways to actually put it in motion now,
if that makes any sense. What do you think sent
you into the direction of some of those poorer
decisions when you were younger? We all did it.
I mean, it's what we all did. You know, we were
young, young, young dum -dums, the best way to
explain it. You know, we'd rather hang out and
smoke the lettuce and have keg parties and write
graffiti than focus on studies and stuff. You
know, not all of us were that bad. You know,
quite a few of us got out of that and did great
things with their lives. You know, that was just
the time. What about career aspirations? I know
you became a volunteer firefighter, and we'll
get into that, but what were you doing as far
as a job pre -fire service? It was from the electrician
and the carpentry. I've been doing that for years.
I mean, I still do the electric to this day.
It was a good job. I had great times, met some
great people. Even a guy that I worked for years
ago, I had been down this past April. My mom
was sick. And I was like, hey, you need any help?
You know, I wouldn't mind. I'm going to be down
here for a couple of weeks. And I called him
up and went out to work with him a couple of
days. You know, it's like it's a nice trade to
have. And it's great in the fire service, too.
You know, you have a lot of knowledge, you know,
building construction and electrical and things
like that. With that lens in the construction
side too, you hear quite often that there is
a mental health crisis in construction workers
too. And obviously it's not as front and center
as it is and seeming to become now in the fire
service. What were you seeing as far as not just
suicide, but addiction, alcohol, et cetera, in
that profession? Back then, it was a lot of alcohol,
a lot of dope. You know, some of the guys, I
mean, one electrician I worked for a long time
ago was one of the first people. He had a Marlboro
pack with weed in it, you know, and after we're
done working, it's for his back. So he hid his
weed. You know, I'm, you know, 18 years old and
I'm sitting in this guy's front seat of his truck
and he's smoking a lettuce. I'm like, OK, here
we go. But I mean, yeah, alcoholism. Yeah. And
those jobs are kind of stressful, too. You know,
I was fortunate that I didn't really experience
that much. of that suicidal tendency, but definitely
the addictions. But, you know, some guys really,
it burns you out. You know, you work for the
wrong company. They force you to get things done.
And, you know, you have a life too. You know,
you're hurt. I don't care. It's got to get done.
It stresses people out, you know? And I mean,
I know a couple of guys that drinking really
got to them. I've never heard anything from them
since, but. Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be spoken
about that. I mean, this is the thing I feel
that if we can really make big changes in the
fire service, we can then be a beacon for a lot
of the other professions, you know, if we can
fix us and we can help fix other people too.
So let me just write that down. I just totally
brain fired then one second. So then what about
your introduction to the volunteer fire service?
How did you find your way there? I was working
in a friendlies in North Belmore, Long Island.
And one of the kids there that I met, he just
started as a volunteer in a Freeport fire department.
So I had gone over there and visited the firehouse
with him and stuff. And I lived in a different
town. And I didn't know about residency and stuff
like that. Because I worked close to that town,
I was able to join there as a volunteer. And
I would spend my weeks there at the volley house,
sleep overnight because I worked in town. But
I lived like four towns away, so I'd go home
on the weekends. It was just me and my apartment.
But it definitely interested me. I thought the
hearse tour was the most greatest thing in the
world. We did the Draws a Life tournament one
year. in free from freeport long island we did
one up here in fairport and that's another volunteer
fire department i was in when i come back up
here but uh yeah it gave me the wow i want to
do this you know and then i took the test because
of that fire department for the fdny you know
that was back in 98. a lot of things have changed
since how competitive was it to be a firefighter
back in 98 everybody wanted that job I mean,
to be in the FDNY, yeah, you wanted it. Every
volunteer that I knew wanted to be on that job
and even other people. And I was very fortunate
that I got in there and I was able to test and,
you know, get the call. I had actually broke
my ankle in a couple of places taking the agility
test to move forward. And I completed it, but
it was the last portion of it. Long story short,
I went to the bottom of the list of that test.
But I got called in 2004. But when we all took
the test, some of these guys were already working
two or three years before I was able to get on.
But no, it was one of the most amazing things
I've ever done in my life. When we talk about
the volunteer fire service... Of course, there's
absolutely a place for it. You're out in the
middle of nowhere, truly. You're protecting a
city or a town, not a city even, a village or
a town of a couple of thousand people. Then you
can see the application. What's interesting,
though, New York, New Jersey, they're still relying
on volunteer firefighters when they're in densely
populated suburban communities now with a large
tax base. what is your perception of some of
those departments actually becoming career and
paying these these men and women full -time so
you know i am i am a hundred percent pro volunteer
i'm also 100 career and there's a lot of brothers
and sisters that you know no we don't want the
volleys or no we need the volleys i understand
why they need the volleys um But I mean, it's
getting harder and harder to retain them. You
know, I spoke at a class a couple of weeks ago.
Yeah, 27 young adults taking their firefighter
one in New York State. They're either working
full time or they're students and working. And
it's like six months long, but they're doing
these things on Tuesday nights and Thursday nights.
So, you know, it's a lot. I don't know how they're
able to manage it. But, you know, we have bills
to pay. New York is very expensive right now.
And, you know, these guys and girls have to go
to work. On the other hand, I feel that these
volunteer departments, every one of these members
should be, you know, turn into some type of paid
staff. You know, whether it's part -time, you
know, and they have some personnel there, you
know. I think that would be a great thing. But,
I mean, we need first responders local. You know,
you get these big city departments and coming
from New York City, you know, there's plenty
of guys and girls to come respond on the rigs.
But up here, you know, you got weather. You know,
you have other issues. The city of Rochester
has a career department. You know, I forgot how
many, maybe 800. Maybe 800 members, maybe a little
bit more than that. You know, they get the city
stuff, but then the towns up here, yeah, it's
a lot of houses. And, you know, weather is a
big deal up here, especially in the wintertime.
You know, so you need other volunteer departments
to have staff and stuff. And, you know, I think
they should be paid somehow. My argument is just
simply, do you have a paid law enforcement? If
you do, then why are you a fire and or EMS volunteer?
It makes no sense. Yeah. And, you know, law enforcement,
too. I mean, there's plenty of crime going on.
You know, it's just I feel like we need more.
But these cops do really well with what they
have. I mean, for the most part, everybody's
pretty decent where I live. You know, you got
a couple of towns over, you get some shenanigans
going on, you get into the city and it's constant.
They got nine priorities held up times like an
hour, you know, so like same thing with EMS.
Nobody wants to be an EMT because you don't make
enough money and you cannot make enough money
being an EMT or a medic. as your primary job
you know but you're working 12 plus hours mandatories
here and there and uh you know they're still
waiting for ambulances to show up you know it's
it's tough right now all over the country yeah
yeah i feel just the priority you know we'll
get to your 911 story in a minute but you know
post 9 11 there was all that support and all
the financing and the government grants and you
know how how quickly we forget and now the first
responders as far as priorities are at the bottom
again just like they were you know a few decades
ago so You know, we're a very fickle nation when
you look at it. Oh, yeah. You know, 9 -11 is
probably the only reason I got hired on that
job because, you know, God bless our 343. You
know, I got hired September 12th of 2004, you
know, and it was the last class from that list
that I took. I think that test was in 98, you
know, and I was just very fortunate that I was
able to get hired by that job. just get my life
in in the direction and to where it is right
now but with a lot of sadness absolutely well
before we go to the kind of fdmy part when you
reflect back now what were some of the significant
calls you had in a volunteer uniform oh um i
remember us taking a patient out on a ladder
um the woman was cooked up you know head to toe
um from the uh the root uh from the uh the I
think it was a Queen Anne. That was something
that I'll never forget that. That was the first
time I saw and smelled burnt flesh. And you know
as a fireman too, you never forget that smell
of burnt flesh. You can smell it right now just
talking about it. It's something that's stuck
in your head. Some car accidents, some very interesting
car accidents where we pulled people out. You
know, with the other departments, I mean, I saw
the aftermath of a woman suicide hit by a train,
several cars versus trains. You know, I kind
of fell through the floor of a structure that
in this area called the Oxbow. It was on fire
and we were. getting in there with the line and
there was a hole in the floor so i went through
and the captain grabbed me you're good fit um
you know that stuck with me because like i thought
i was going right into the erie canal and you
know it was on the canal but not right underneath
i'm like going to the basement like no you're
going into the canal i'm like oh jesus um you
know yeah and uh i mean i i've seen i've seen
a lot of ems calls too you know um car accidents
um When I was in the volleys in Queens, we had
the ambulance for NYPD car head on into another
car. We actually transported the one officer.
But, you know, that was in the volleys. You know,
I wasn't paid FDNY yet. So that was an interesting
call. You know, what I say, hangings and stabbings
and shootings. I mean, I've seen enough, you
know, babies. You know, it's a sight you'll never
forget. And I prefer not to see it again. I've
seen it a few times and I'm not happy with myself.
What about 9 -11? You're working as an electrician.
You're volunteering as a firefighter. You're
on the list now. What was that day like for you?
My mom called me and said, are you watching the
news? I'm like, no, I'm sleeping. And she's like,
the World Trade Center is on fire. When I turned
on the TV, I could not believe what I was seeing.
I got dressed and went right to the volley firehouse.
And I sat in that firehouse for 24 hours. I could
not believe it. I was even in touch with one
person down there. And I heard people that I
knew that were missing. And I was just like,
I just can't believe that. Broke my heart. And
just like everybody else's, I actually wound
up going back to New York City from... the Fairport,
New York area, October of 2001. And it was then
I joined the West Hamilton Beach Volunteer Fire
Department, one of the 10 volunteer fire departments
that exist in New York City. I think there's
eight now, maybe nine, but yeah, I joined that
department while I was waiting, you know, but
I've never forgotten 9 -11, you know, and that's
another reason why I do all of this stuff that
I'm doing right now. is to just make sure that
nobody forgets what happened that day you know
because i i've traveled the country and i could
tell you i've definitely seen uh some people
forget the phrase that comes up a lot and i love
it because i think it's exactly what's needed
now more than ever is i miss 9 12 you know the
community when everyone's coming together greatest
day in the world so talk to me about that through
your eyes so um that's something that i use very
often I do get invited to schools and I do all
of this stuff for free because this is actually
my PTSD therapy. You know, I go in there and
I tell all of the next generation, all the young
kids why 9 -12 was so important because people
from all over the world went to New York. Everybody
did something. You know, people sent cards, you
know, people sent clothes. You know, they were
there for everybody in New York City after 9
-11. And that's something that's unbelievable.
I haven't seen or experienced a display of that
magnitude since 2001. I wish that would happen
every day. And I try to, you know, preach it,
so to speak, you know. But 9 -12 was a very,
very important day. And ironically, that was
the day that I got sworn into the FDNY was 9
-12 -2004. You know, so that could be. a little
sign that, yeah, I'm going to be, you know, paying
it forward to people and helping people, you
know, in the future. You know, now I realize
it, but then, you know what I mean? I didn't
know the significance of that. Well, I remember
seeing, you know, all, let's just take, you know,
of course, people of all backgrounds, colors,
creeds, but even like the places of worship from
all the religions were all coming together. And
if you look at the documentaries on the Grenfell
fire, the one we had in London, same thing. People
that naturally the government entities were almost
nowhere to be seen. And it was all the local
communities and faiths that were coming together
to take care of people there as well. Yeah. Why
do you think that we lost that so quickly? I
wish you just asked a million dollar question,
bro. I don't know what happened. I don't know
where it went wrong. I don't know. I know it's.
It's very, it's stressful, especially for people
in our line of work. You know, I've seen things
online that, you know, it begs the question,
are brothers and sisters dealing with this shenanigans
now? You know, they're going to help a person
of this religious faith and there's another religious
faith that doesn't like that religion and they're
going to start standing there and cause a drama.
Now we're going to have airmail coming off of
balconies and it's like, you know. And it's so,
it's insane. It's insane. It is. I mean, the
thing is also it spans both sides of the political
aisle. So it's not one or the other. It's something
that I try and, you know, occasionally be very
vocal about without making it the whole platform.
But it's like, look, there's us. There's the
United States of America in this case, or United
Kingdom or Australia or New Zealand or France
or Portugal, wherever you're listening to this
from. And you are the asset. You are that nation.
And every time it's cleaved, it's so heartbreaking
because what do we do naturally when there's
something like a 9 -11? We come together. That's
who we actually are. And it kills me watching
that slow, kind of insidious division again that
we're seeing over and over and over when I know
that American people are good people. They really
are. The British, the Australians, everyone.
Inherently, I believe people are good. But the
more stressed and, you know, sleep deprived and
financially strained we become, the easier it
is to kind of start splitting everyone together
and then disassociating with the humanity that
we actually saw after, for example, 9 -11. Yeah,
I wish I wish we can go to bed tonight, wake
up tomorrow and everybody stop their nonsense.
You know, I think that would be awesome. I can
tell you personally, I mean. You know, it's a
stress level. It's just like, all right, well,
you know, what's going on? I'm at that point
that I'm wondering, what are we going to do in
the next 10 years? You know, what's the plan?
But I see all of this craziness happening. Like,
do I want to stay here? You know, do I want to
stay in New York anymore? You know, I'm not going
out to the West Coast. Forget about that. I mean,
I feel California is done. It's just as bad as
New York. You know, I want to go somewhere and
have to worry about hurricanes and tornadoes
and all of that business. But, you know, I don't
know. I just I wish people would. you know, just
stop it and just get back together. I think everybody's
mental health would definitely improve. I think
everybody's losing their marbles, to be honest
with you. Yeah. I mean, I think, honestly, when
I see a lot of the, you know, like you said,
the front -facing stuff that we're all seeing
at the moment, it just screams mental health
crisis to me. It really does. Unaddressed trauma
creates these kind of reactions to where, you
know, I mean, I think COVID was the perfect example.
The fact that families and friendships were divided
over whether you use a mask or not when the middle
ground was, hey, let's make people healthier.
And then it was like, no, we don't want to hear
that. It's just, you know, pick a pick a World
War One, you know, trench and stick to it left
or right. It just it blew me away. But it really
was. It showed how how much in crisis I think
a lot of people in this country actually are.
Yeah, I caught a lot of a lot of drama because
of that, because, you know, it got to a certain
point like, all right, enough is enough. You're
outside, you're on a boat, you're wearing a mask.
Stop it. Just stop. You know, the idea is you
need to get some fresh air, too. You know, I
never got it. And, you know, thank goodness.
But I know people that did get it, but it definitely
divided families. I mean, it caused drama with
my family, you know, and that was things that
didn't need to be going on at that point. You
know what I mean? But yeah, the political crisis
in the country right now, it's just it's insane.
I had to go off Facebook because I don't want
to see any more drama. You know, God forbid I
say something you don't agree with. And I'm like
the worst, most horrible person in the world.
I'm like, OK, I mean, I sleep OK at night for
the most part. But sorry, your feelings are hurt.
Yeah. Well, the most sense that I can tell you
now is the common sense in the middle. Hands
down. If you're not extreme left or extreme right,
you are the most hated group at the moment. But
I remember just thinking about it with COVID
early on. And I was talking, you know, opposing
the kind of vaccine mandates that were taking
first responder jobs that were out there with
no PPE for the longest time. And now all of a
sudden they're being called murderers. I was,
you know, bringing people on and, you know, advocating
for a push against the mandates. Then I was getting
pushback from one group saying, you know, COVID's
killing all these people. And my whole thing
was, no, obesity, smoking, these other underlying
issues are actually what's killing most of these
people. So let's get people healthier while we're
working through this. So anyway, every single
death is attributed to COVID. And then the other
side, you know, obviously was happy because we're
talking about opposing mandates. Well, then get
a bit further. Now, all of a sudden, every death
is being attributed to the vaccine. So now the
right, the other side is now losing their mind
and every, you know, so it's just like, Oh my
God. And rather than either of them saying, you
know what, 70 % of the country is overweight
or obese. Maybe just, maybe we need to do something
about that. And that is the main reason why we're
losing so many people that other countries aren't,
but all you got was this extremism. And you know,
when, when both sides were blaming COVID or the
vaccine on deaths that were clearly from. obesity
and copd you're just standing in the middle going
just shaking your head like what the fuck yeah
we fought over toilet paper toilet paper out
of everything that we could have needed from
the grocery store we fought over toilet paper
yeah insane Absolutely insane. It was. A country
has lost its mind. Well, the sad thing as well,
not to kind of stay down this rabbit hole too
deep, but then when we kind of all emerged as
a country, I mean, Florida came out early and
I'm so glad I was in that state during that time
because credit to DeSantis, he's done some things
I don't agree with, but the way that he just
slowly, instrumentally opened up the faucet again,
you know, and we have a lot of elderly people
and we didn't have a super high death toll. But
at the end, no one wanted to revisit them. No
one wanted to look back and go, okay, what did
we do right? What did we do wrong? What can we
change if we get another virus sweep through?
And that was the biggest disgusting thing. That's
why I like to talk about this. It's because there
were lessons that were learned that we could
actually improve. And for example, the obesity
crisis, that God forbid we have a virus sweep
through again, we'll have a healthier nation.
But there was none of that. They don't want to
talk about it. They don't want to reflect on
it. We just want to move on. And that's the biggest
insult to all the people that did die. is to
not change something so that it doesn't happen
again. Yeah, I have my own theories on it, but
that's a rabbit hole we don't want to go down
today. All right. Well, moving forward to FDNY,
September 12th, 2004. Talk to me about your onboard
experience at The Rock. Being screamed at the
entire eight hours on the first day just to start
off with, that was interesting. It begged the
question, what the hell did I just get myself
into? It was probably one of the most difficult,
stressful, enjoyable, fun, memory -filled experiences
of my life. We went through September to December.
It was only three months, and the weather was
not all that bad. A lot of learning, a lot of
things, a lot of roll -ups on the shoulder. You
know, when you don't answer a question right,
you've got to carry a two -and -a -half on your
shoulder. If you get another question wrong,
that's two of them. And if the squad gets something
wrong, then everybody's going to be carrying
roll -ups. And I think one day we had all of
our bags in our spots, had to go bring our roll
-ups, drop them, run back, grab our bags, and
go back. Yeah, it was a long day. I'm pretty
sure I had something to do with that answer,
but, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was definitely
something. And I, I learned a lot in there too.
And I can tell, I mean, I can close my eyes and
think about, you know, every day that we were
there today, you know, um, I got out of there.
I was in the best shape of my life. You know,
I was just, you know, I'm going to be a fireman
one day, you know, and, uh, they put me in a
10 engine and, uh, one of the guys in my class,
Nicky Castellano, he went to 10 trucks. So, you
know, we're. Brand new, young. It's December.
You know, we go there and, you know, they took
a picture of us. But, you know, took a picture
of us first. And then they dumped flour on us
and dumped a buck of water on us each. And then
there was a class three. We got to jump on the
rig and take the run in with them. And, you know,
we just started out our careers. It was interesting
to say the least. I still remember the crew from
my first call I went on. As a probie, it was
Tony Kaczynski was driving the rig. Lieutenant
Procala was the boss. Mike Giacoppo was the nozzle.
I was the backup, and Timmy Doherty was the control.
It was just a class three. I think everybody
remembers their first call, and that was it for
me. But it was great. I mean, it was a tough
firehouse to work in. Ten houses right across
the street from the Trade Center. You know, there
were some guys there from 9 -11, and it was 2004.
You know, it was a few years later. And, you
know, we had 9 -11 burned into our hearts and
souls at that probie school. And, you know, that
was a hard house to work in. I couldn't imagine
working 9 -11 and being a fireman in 2001. Being
on that, I couldn't imagine that. And here these
guys are here. So I look at them like these guys
are like my freaking heroes. You know, these
guys are still working in this firehouse. You
know, and then three months later, we get another
two probies in, three months, another two, three
months, another two. You know, we had a lot of
guys come in, you know, after I got in there
in 2004. And we all got along and had a great
time. It was just a great house. You know, we
had the boys night out and, you know, right behind
the firehouse is O 'Hara's. So, you know, get
out of work and you go behind the firehouse,
you know, go out there, hang out. But I mean,
I learned some things, too. I had some interesting
calls there. We had a on Black Sunday. We had
a fire in the Chamber Street subway. So those
fires down there on those platforms, they get
pretty interesting. So a couple of bottles of
air later, you know, I had a great time in that
firehouse. I forget which guest it was, but someone
who was on not too long ago was literally the
first recruit class after 9 -11, if I'm remembering
that right. So there was a very kind of palpable
replacement feel to it as the military gave.
Now you're talking about three years later. What
was that sense by that point? And was it kind
of back to normal or was there still that almost
that uneasy feeling of knowing that you're still
replacing some of the people they'd lost in that
day? You know, for a few months that I was there,
we were able to actually park on the site itself
because there's really no parking down there,
you know. That was very eerie. parking there
and stuff um and just being there yeah it it
did it did feel like we were just replacements
you know um and and sadly some of the members
that did die in 9 -11 they weren't even working
in 10 house that day they would they were on
their details and working in different boroughs
you know and that's what's what's crazy too but
You know, one thing that I had burned into my
head there is the utmost respect for the house,
the utmost respect for the members, the utmost
respect for the families of those that died from
1010. And, you know, just the respect. Make sure
you show respect to the people that visit. You
know, people travel from around the world. They
save for years to go to New York City and they
want to go down to the Trade Center. You know,
you have to be patient with them, too. And there
are times some of them are pretty damn annoying.
I'm not going to lie. I remember closing the
door one day. You only lost five. You know, you
have a good day. And I just closed the doors.
Like, that's all you had to say. Thank God you
said it to me, not to one of the guys that survived
9 -11 that's working today. You know what I mean?
But, yeah, it did feel like that. And it felt
like we were replacements. But it wasn't a very
long period of time, you know. Now it's just
like, we got to learn this job. You know, we
got to, we got to learn and learn and be fine.
And, and, you know, hating climbing stairs. I
hated stairs. I don't know anybody in Manhattan
that doesn't hate stairs. Seven is heaven. Eight
is great. This has been one of the things with
fitness standards in the fire service that I've
really struggled with. It's been just such a
push. And in Florida, it's interesting. It's
such a flat state that you don't even get. If
you work in San Francisco, maybe you don't need
to run stairs that much if you commute into work
and all your walks are up these steep roads that
they have there. Here, ours are completely flat.
But the last place I worked next to my station
was a 30 -story hotel. And so, you know, with
a high rise strip, there's 100 pounds of gear,
30 floors up, and then you go to work. And I
never understood why there was such an opposition
to fitness standards, because when you have to
do that, and if you're in Manhattan, you're constantly
climbing from alarms and those kind of things,
and you don't need to have PT. But that's not
the case in Florida. A lot of us, you know, we're
not going up and down these buildings all the
time. Um, but the exertion that it takes to climb,
you know, 20, 30 floors with a hundred pounds
of gear before you even then go to work, it blows
my mind that so many places oppose a standard
because I mean, you don't have to be a genius
to figure out if you're carrying 50, a hundred
pounds of extra weight, body fat, and your cardiovascular
system is completely untrained. You're not going
to make it up there point. You're just not. And
you're going to become a liability that we have
to then bring down. Yeah. Yeah, for the most
part, these guys are in the gym all the time.
You know, every firehouse has a gym. There's
jugs of water all over the place. You know, these
guys are doing what they got to do. For the most
part, everybody is. And then there's a small
amount of people that just don't do it. You know,
but I mean, that's their choice. You know, but
the job does do the yearly medicals and stuff
like that. And if you don't know where you're
supposed to be, they'll take you out of the firehouse
and put you on light duty. They'll send you back
to the academy, you know. Um, but no, that's,
that was, it was tough working in Manhattan.
I mean, you know, as a control fireman, you got
two and a half inch roll up and you have the
standpipe kit and then you've got your gear and
then you've got your bottle, you know? So that's
a lot of extra weight, you know, nozzle guys
just carrying their length backups, carrying
theirs. If there's a door, they're carrying theirs,
you know? Um, but stairs do suck and the time
of the year sucks too. But there wasn't really
a whole lot of fires down there. It wasn't like
watching Rescue Me. You know, these guys are
going, you know, granted they were in the Bronx
or wherever they were. I mean, most of the time
they were in Long Island City. But, you know,
there wasn't a whole lot of fires down there.
How was Rescue Me received by FDNY? I'll be honest.
I thought it was hilarious. The first season
or two. I just thought it was just a comedy.
I didn't see that in the firehouses that I worked
in. I mean, shenanigans, but what goes on in
a firehouse stays in a firehouse, too. You know,
I think a lot of that was made for TV. And if
it wasn't, then that's interesting. And it definitely
I didn't see that where I was. Yeah, I've never
had sex in the middle of a structure fire, for
example, I gotta say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've
never gone to work and then, you know, left and
then came back like three hours later. And you
know, everything was fine. Yeah, that's kind
of like AWOL. That's like you're losing pay.
Absolutely. Well, prior to the Deutsche Bank
fire, what were some of the significant fires
or calls that you did go to? Well, there were
some rescues. Staten Island Ferry, they had one
of the workers fell. That was an interesting
rescue getting him out of there. I was CFRD for
that. And a couple of the guys from Rescue One
were volunteer firefighters as well in Freeport,
Long Island. That's the department that I joined
when I first started with the fire service. So
they knew me and I got razzed by the guys back
there. I was like, how do you know those guys?
Oh, the volley days. You know, I guess I had
some interesting calls after Deutsche Bank. Before
that, I did get one EMS save, which is really
the only medal that I wear on my uniform. It
was right on the corner of the firehouse, Liberty
and Church. And I just walked in the firehouse
and the run came in and I relieved the guy quick.
We got the guy back and they gave us a medal
and a second chance brunch, which is pretty cool.
But what was really wild about it is, is I'm
looking through that pamphlet and I see a name,
Robert Arcel. And I look at the address and that
was actually the address of my father's building.
on the Upper West Side. So I call my mom up.
I was like, Mom, you know, is Bob Arcella still
alive? She was like, yeah, I think so. I was
like, you know, it looks like he, you know, he
died and they got him back. You know, I said,
I'll call you later. So I tell the boss, and
the boss was like, yeah, go walk around. I'm
walking around. I see the name tags, and I come
back. He's like, did you find him? I said, nah.
He goes, look behind you. And there he is behind.
So I go over. I said, excuse me, are you Robert
Arcella? He goes, I am. I said. Bob, I'm solid.
Did you know Mickey Sands? He goes, Mickey was
a really good friend of mine. I said, I'm Jimmy.
And we just burst into tears and held each other.
When I was in grammar school, I did a report
on him. He's a Vietnam vet. I did the report
about him. He tried to give me his medals. His
son had Down syndrome. And my father was like,
you know, you can't take those. You have to give
them back. You know, that's not for you. I said,
no, I understand. He was trying to be a good
gesture. But I think it's insane that where I
worked in Manhattan, my father's previous law
firm building was like two blocks away. We came
in and out of Manhattan into the Trade Center
from the subway growing up our whole lives, you
know, on Saturdays. Me and my brother and sister
would go to work with dad. And I thought it was
insane that this is where him and my mom met.
My sister, my brother, and my uncle have all
worked in that building. This is a salesman that
my dad was friends with who died in front of
the building. My dad died in 1995. I thought
it was wild. So I wear that one medal and that's
it. I don't need to wear anything else. You know,
but yeah, that was probably one of the most memorable
calls that I had. i mean i don't really talk
about the subways you know the train uh people
run over by trains and stuff like that it's no
reason for it you know they seem to be happening
all the time now so yeah yeah it's so sad i think
most people don't realize how frequent that is
but obviously fdmy when they come on here it
seems to be a pretty frequent occurrence which
again is tying into this conversation of mental
health i mean we talk about how easily people
are divided we talk about the the suicides both
in and out of uniform i mean it really is rampant
and when you think about humans inherently want
to survive reproduce protect their children you
know carry on their bloodline it it goes against
you know the biology of being a human being really
which is why it's such a crisis so all right
well then let's go to august 8th 2007 what was
the beginning of that shift like for you and
then kind of walk me through that horrendous
day august 18th Oh, excuse me. I wrote that down.
I wrote that down wrong. My apologies. No worries.
It's a day that I, yeah, August 18, 2007 at 3
.39 in the afternoon. I just have that. It's
almost, it's like tattooed in my soul. You know,
I just got off of medical leave. I had injured
my back previously in the summer at a little
diesel fire spill around the corner. You know,
I got to work that day. We had Kenny Ruane, who
is a senior guy. We were very fortunate. He was
working in our firehouse. Dave Cirillo, he was
one or two years, I think. I don't remember the
dates. And then me, and then we had a covering
boss, and we had a chauffeur from Six Engines.
So, I mean, the day started out like every other
day. You check the rig. There's something wrong
with the rig, so we had to strip our stuff off.
bring it up to 20 truck and get a spare from
them and go back to our firehouse. We didn't
do a multi -unit drill. Manhattan does multi
-unit drills on Sundays. So Saturday was our
clean the firehouse day. So we got back, we cleaned
the firehouse and, you know, had the meal and
stuff. And I had the watch. So the three by,
so the watches are split three hours. You know,
I had 12 to three. I'm sorry, I had three to
six. So I'm out there and some firefighters from
Rochester, New York, were down for a 9 -11 motorcycle
ride. I had the doors open, the windows open,
you know, but it was a nice day out. And you
can hear the voice alarm outside the firehouse.
So I'm talking to these guys in the street. I
have my back to Deutsche Bank building and we're
chatting it up. And I get somebody come over
and said, the building's on fire. And I look
up, I'm like, there's smoke coming out. from
the upper floor. So I run back inside. As I get
back in over the voice alarm, they asked us if
we got the run. I said, computer's down. We got
the run. And I'm telling the companies we have
a fire next door. So they send it out. We get
on the rig and everything. And at that time,
you know, they're starting to do work in the
Trade Center site. So when we left quarters,
the engine was able to take the left out and
then make a left down Greenwich Street. The truck
couldn't get out and make the left because of
the wall. So they had to go out and make a right,
go up to church the wrong way and come back down
so they can make the turn. So we're coming around
the corner. I look out the window and there's
fire shooting out of the upper floors. I'm like,
I tell Dave, like, holy shit, bro. Who's going
to work? Like, get everything on. So Kenny's
on the other side. The chauffeur's asking where
the standpipe is. We know the standpipe connection's
on the corner. So we had to come off Greenwich
and make this right, and then Washington Street
was the entrance into the site because Deutsche
was being taken apart. They were dismantled in
the building. So the exterior elevator was on
the other side of the building, on the Trade
Center side. So I'm sorry. We go tell the guy,
you know, we got to go get up there. So he takes
us to the floor below, and we get off the elevator
onto plywooded deck, steel plywooded deck, and
walk in. And when we walked in, I noticed the
air hoses, holes in the side of the building.
So we walk in. The whole interior of the building
is plastic. So we're going for the elevator shaft
and the staircases. So we start walking around.
We come down. And we take a right and we get
to the first staircase and go in. And where the
standpipe is supposed to be, there was a standpipe,
but there were garden hose connections on there.
So the boss told me to go up. So I climbed up.
I had the nozzle for that. I climb up and this
is plastic in the staircases. So I take my knife
and I start cutting them. And it's like these
heavy timber doors. Like I'm like, I can't get
up this, you know. So we go back down. Now we're
in the core, so we have the elevators. The next
staircase, the B stairs, that's what we set up.
We had a regular standpipe there, so that's where
I dropped my line, Dave dropped his line, and
Control had his line. So we had our three lines,
and we just were waiting for water. So Kenny
starts walking around, and other companies are
starting to come up. There was only really one
way up. We came up the exterior elevator. And
as members tried getting up from the ground floor
into staircases, they were stopped because they
had these doors and they had this really strange
– going through that building and seeing the
stuff that they did in this building, it didn't
make sense to me. And I've done construction
a long time. Like they had staircases that were
like, no joke, this wide. You had to sidestep
in. We're not getting up that unless we're taking
our bottle off. It didn't make sense. So we're
just standing there, and we had some haze coming.
So Kenny tells us, you know, hey, let's take
some windows. So, you know, we're an engine company.
We don't have hooks and halogens, and the truck's
just trying to force entry above. So we step
over to that floor, and we just find what we
can. You know, sledgehammer here, you know, pipes
and stuff, trying to break windows, just get
some ventilation up there. Because we're up there
for about 15, 20 minutes at this point. So we
go back over to the staircase and, you know,
we have this haze starting to come, you know,
and at this point you got the truck companies
coming up with bolt saws. You got other companies
coming into the area. Everybody's trying to make
their way up there. You know, we just got to
get entry to the floor above, you know, but we
still don't have water. So at one point the haze
was pretty decent and the boss comes by, go on
air, go on air. So he walks away. And then I
tell Davis, dude, take that off. We don't know
what's going on here. We don't know what the
plan is. Save our air right now. It wasn't that
bad, but I preferred not to at that point. The
boss from 7 -1, Lieutenant Gentilomo, he wanted
us to set up for a search line. So I kicked a
hole in the door in a sheetrock, and we're all
set to put the search line in there. They had
a substantial object to get up there and find
out where the fire is. And then it was like out
of nowhere. It just got pitch black so fast.
It was just like that. It got hot really fast.
So we get on our bellies and start crawling.
I'm looking over my shoulder and I'm seeing fire
ripping through this. I'm like... Okay, yeah,
we're in a pickle. So I'm following Dave, and
I have his foot. There was nobody behind me.
Now, I hadn't seen the boss since before when
he told us to go on air. He had gone down the
staircase. You know, I was on Dave's foot. I
knew Dave had a wall. So he had gone down the
staircase and was down there, and they couldn't
get down, and that's what we found out way after.
As I'm going over this pile of dirt, the ceiling
grid comes back and grabs my bottle. So now I'm
like stuck on this and I'm just like trying to
thrust myself out and I lose Dave's foot. When
I do get out of it, you know, I had my knife,
I cut back, I'm in an open area and I have no
idea where I am. And this can't see anything,
you know, pitch black and it's hot. I panic and,
you know, I pull my face piece off, you know,
uh take a nice feed and uh i basically and this
is what i tell when i do my talks is i piss myself
i mean i really thought that that was it i'll
be honest i thought that that was it um i don't
know where i am and there's no way i could have
figured out where i was um but i felt like uh
like almost a tap on the shoulder and uh i put
my face piece back on and i was able to transmit
a mayday so i got a mayday out Um, at the time
that all of this happened with us, there were
28 maydays at the same time. So they got me and
I heard that I read it too. Um, then we had the
audio and stuff and, uh, you know, I explained
where I was. So like, I'm just kind of like feeling
around. I'm also terrified. Um, and I remember
those hoses. Now, when I came in, I mentioned
that I saw those hoses on the, those hose holes
out there. I figured that was it. So I kind of
backed up a little bit and I was going to go
right. But I kind of like backed up a little
bit and I'm hearing people, you know, this is
the way out. This is the way out. And I looked
up and I thought I saw, you know, light. So smoke
went out, you know, it didn't go out and that
was a quick light. Next thing you know, the captain
from squad 18 has got my body, drags me out,
throws me out. My vibro alerts are going off.
I pull that off. I get out, and I hear guys banging
on the wall. So I grab whatever I can see there,
and I try to pry. So one by one, guys started
coming back out. Kenny puts me and Dave in the
elevator, and we go down, and we went around
the corner back to 10 truck. That's where they
told us to go. The picture, I sent you that picture.
That was a photographer, the post that was down
there. That's what they put in the damn paper.
You know, jacket off, bunkers on, tank on the
ground, and looking up in absolute shock. I can't
fucking believe what just happened here. I can't
believe what just happened here. I had taken
a civilian cell phone, and I called my mom. My
mom was watching this on the news. You know,
she knew I was working. My aunt was down there
earlier that day. You know, it's like, you know,
I'm okay. Have some close friends and, you know,
they grab family together and stuff like that.
But, you know, we stuck around for a little bit
and then they sent us to the hospital. I'm still
in shock at this point. Definitely had some CO
and some smoke inhalation. So they admitted all
of us. Dave was admitted. He was on the other
side. Um, then we had, you know, the mayor and
the commissioner come by, you know, and, uh,
you know, I had some words, uh, that I won't
say here, but, um, the DI that I had in probie
school, um, two guys had died, uh, Bobby Badia
and Joey Graffagnino, the, the DI from probie
school, Donnie Wondelick, um, he had come over
to me and asked me what happened. This is my
DI. You know, this is in 2007. I just got out
in 2004. So three years later, he remembered
me. So I'm telling what's going on. When I was
able to be released, which is like 1130, 12 o
'clock, I wasn't going to leave the hospital
until Dave was done and cleared because we had
high levels. And Donnie grabs me and we go outside
to the ambulance bay. And now here I am standing
in front of him as they're taking one of the
guys out on the stretcher and putting him in
the ambulance to take him to the morgue. So I'm
now witnessing this. Me and Dave leave. We go
back to the firehouse. Chief Kelty was there.
He had come out of 10. He got promoted from 10.
And he said, did you call your parents? Yes,
we did. Did you eat? There's pizza in the back.
So Dave and I decided we were going to go to
the medical office the next day together. But
I went to the neighborhood bar where one of my
buddies was there who works in Queens. My brother
was there. My sister was there. My brother -in
-law was there. My best friends were there. My
family was at this bar. That bar doesn't even
exist anymore. I walk in there. There's two shots
in the back of the bar. It's just hug after hug
after hug. Even all these years later, it still
hits me. And I just tried explaining this a couple
of weeks ago. It never hits me at the same time.
It's never the same exact moment in this day
that I get choked up. And, you know, my brother
goes, I think you need a new career. I said,
no, I don't. I don't need a new career. So I
hung out for a little bit, went home. Dave met
me in my house. We jumped on the train. We went
to headquarters, and we walked in. We were all
in one area. We're all asking each other, where
were you? What happened to you guys and stuff
like that? They put us offline with counseling.
It was a fatal fire, and this is not an ordinary
fire. There's nothing normal about what happened.
I believe it went, I think at that point, six
alarms. or seven alarms. It was the highest alarm
fire in New York since 9 -11. I think that's
what Deutsche Bank was. I believe that's, I don't
remember the exact six or seven, but, you know,
we had to go to counseling and we were told we
could take a transfer anywhere we wanted. You
know, like, no, I'll stay here. You know, it
didn't really affect me because what happened
after that, it definitely. slowed this PTSD.
It brought it to a screeching halt. Me and Vinny
from 10 Truck, we were asked to join a group
that we would travel around on the 9 -11 anniversary
and do rebuilds where there were natural disasters.
So we both got pretty involved with that. I got
very involved with that. That's where I got into
the 9 -11 flag and all of that stuff. They called
us in for court and everything, and it was insane
that I sat there and I read my transmissions
word for word. What I said to them was word for
word on what happened. You know, and, you know,
I mean, what happened that day, shock. I did
a recon with my senior guy from 10 Engine, Sal
Organo. He took himself offline and went there
because that's basically. our building, you know,
and I was able to go through and I, I made a
video of exactly what I remember from that day,
you know, walk through the building and I couldn't
believe it was like 10 feet away from where the
captain grabbed me and pulled me out, but I couldn't
find that entrance, you know, but what I saw
in that building after, you know, the shafts
and the open areas that, you know, what was in
each of these other floors, it was insane. You
know, you got, One floor that's got all the aluminum
framing in the middle of the room just jagged,
sticking out. It's a firefighter's nightmare.
You've got cords and wires and everything hanging
off the ceilings. That's a firefighter's nightmare.
Everything was different. And seeing all that
with the court cases and stuff like that, it's
like... You know, and it wasn't until that March
that I had come down the block to go to work.
And I looked up at that building and, you know,
they hadn't done anything on it. And I was it's
just 2008. And I'm like, I can't stay here anymore.
You know, so I went inside. I talked to the senior
guy and I, you know, he's like, you know, it's
a big world out there. You got to do what you
got to do for you. It wasn't that I wanted to
leave. I just. A couple months later, it irked
me that much that I didn't want to see that building
anymore. So they had had an accident where one
of the skid jacks went off the roof and could
have killed guys on the ground. Like how much
more? I definitely don't feel like seeing that.
So I went upstairs and I filled out paperwork
and I took a transfer to Queens. I just picked
a firehouse. I didn't go out there like you should
have. I picked one because I grew up in the neighborhoods.
I knew the neighborhoods. And you know what?
It's probably better for me. I figured take myself
out of that situation. I still kept in touch
with the guys, St. Patrick's Day. And still to
this day, I still talk to guys. But I did that
for myself. And that was the start of the next
chapter of my life after that fire in 2008. You
mentioned about being so close to the edge and
obviously having that truck captain finding you.
What about the two men that you lost? Where were
the elements where they weren't as fortunate
as you were? They were on the floor below us.
Anybody that looks into that fire and there's
a book out there. about it and you could read
all the reports and stuff you know these guys
are all trying to get up to come get us you know
we're transmitting maydays and the same effect
that happened with us happened with them you
know that fire went down as far as the 12th floor
you know started on 17th you know fire and heat
supposed to rise the asbestos abatement units
in the building were keeping everything in so
as soon as they opened up these doors these trap
doors it just sucked everything in You know,
and it was just a flash. And that wasn't good
stuff because we know that that building had
contaminants from 9 -11 in it. You know, that
building, that was a building right there that
had the black scaffolding around it for years.
They had the American flags on it for 9 -11 anniversaries
along with the World Financial Center. You know,
and it's sad what happened to those guys. But
it's also sad that their office that was there
that day hung himself. He was a 9 -11 firefighter
as well, and he just lost two guys. And there's
other people that have taken their lives as well.
And I'll tell you, that fire put me this close
to having to go into a home because the nightmares
and what happened on the pills that I was given
and where I felt in my mind, I just absolute,
sheer... It wasn't insanity. It was just like
absolute done. Done. No care, no cries, no tears,
no done. And it happened years later. We touched
on Grenfell earlier. was down to the cladding,
the petroleum -based cladding that they had all
the way up to kind of beautify this low -income
housing for the wealthy residents that were neighboring.
And that was why it acted in such an unusual
way and the shelter in place that should have
worked on a regular single apartment fire didn't
work and it caused so many deaths in that particular
example. When they did the review of this whole
thing, whether it's the fire prevention side,
disregarding of what should have been done, whether
it's operationally, what were the takeaways,
the lessons learned to try and avoid a repeat
of that event? Well, they came up with a very
in -depth building inspection safety program.
You know, for the longest time, you know, we
did we did build an inspection and this is specifying
on more things. You know, you would get an extra
training on it. And, you know, this is what you
got to do and you got to do all of these and
this that, you know, I guess what happened, why
people didn't go into that building. Obvious
reasons is hazardous materials in the building.
You know how you're supposed to inspect the building,
but the building is being deconstructed. I guess
you didn't think that. The work is there. We're
going to do something so stupid as like set a
small area on fire, you know, whether you're
happy with the job or not. But, you know, that
fire right there changed my life. I was not ready
to retire. Absolutely not. And I've been in fires
after that fire. And it wasn't of what has been
said to me, which I just I laugh off because
like you have no idea you're talking about, guy.
I'm not scared of fire. What terrifies me is
that building. Even though it's not there, in
my mind, it's still there. And I've been down
there a few times in the last 11 years. Even
when I'm there, I still see it. I still smell
it. I close my eyes in two hours and take a nap
and I'll smell that building. It's insane how...
One day, one specific job could dictate the entire
progress of a person's life. When you talked
about transferring to Queens, you remove yourself
from where the geographical location of the building
is, but you've also now kind of taken yourself
away from the crew, the tribe, the brotherhood
that you had in that station. What were the next
few years like as far as the pros and the cons
of that move? So it was interesting. I made some
more friends. I would never replace the guys
from 10. I still talk to a lot of these guys
today. And when I do go down, I do my best to
try to get together with everybody. And I saw
them this past April, which is great. I saw them
the year before, which was even more great. It
was a time, like I was talking about when I was
growing up younger, you can't explain. how amazing
it was that we grew up when and where. And I
can't explain how great it was that I still have
the ability to hang out with these guys, you
know? So going to Queens, making new friends
and meeting different people, it definitely was
not the firehouse in Manhattan. I can tell you
that. I was excited because I'm in a different
realm. Now I'm in Queens. I'm in three digit
land, you know, private dwellings, you know,
we have brush fires, which are hilarious, insane,
you know? duct tape on your bunker pants and
on your sleeves because all that soot that you
walk through gets in places that it shouldn't
be. And some of the other guys that cover it
would laugh at us. Like, why are you guys doing
that? Trust me. You want to do this. You know,
I mean, I saw some pretty cool things. The captain
put me in chauffeur school and I was able to
be a chauffeur of an engine. And I'll never forget
my first due fire. You know, the truck was going
to the rock for training. And we literally crossed
the boulevard, a couple of streets down, took
a left, this fire ripping out of the front of
this house. You know, dropped the boss off, the
backup and the nozzle at the door. My control
stayed with me, went down, hit the hydrant, got
my lengths count, got everything in pumps, good
to go. Flowed water, zipped up my jacket, pulled
my hat down, lit a cigarette. It was like, yeah,
you know, it was great. You know, I also, I was
fortunate to take a detail in Glendale at the
firehouse that I grew up in growing up as a little
kid and be a chauffeur there. And what was kind
of wild was the boss was the brother of a kid
that I went to grammar school with. So he was
a cop and then his, you know, the boss was a
fireman. So that was kind of cool. But we got
to see my Uncle John. He was a deacon at St.
Matthias in Ridgewood, Queens. You know, it was
really awesome to be able to see him. You know,
I'm in uniform and I'm driving an FDNY engine.
I got to take a picture with him, which was,
you know, one of the coolest things, you know.
And I'm driving an engine in a neighborhood that
I grew up in, you know. But the cons were I missed
the, you know, get out of work and go out to
O 'Harris, you know, right behind the firehouse
and see the guys. You know, it was a new life.
I had an apartment three blocks away from the
firehouse. It was fantastic. You know, I was
late for work once and I forgot that I was working
that day. But, you know, it had some downs too.
I mean, you know, I had an issue with one guy
and it's just like whatever. And, you know, when
things started happening, it happened in 2011.
You know, that's when I started having the nightmares.
Those guys had to deal with my craziness when
the nightmares started and the medical leaves
and all the other stuff. And then you fast forward
into Hurricane Sandy in 2012, and that was the
peak of the complete breakdown. So walk me through
that. What were the kind of beginning incidents
that you were having as far as nightmares and
anything else? And then take us into Hurricane
Sandy and that event through your eyes. I had
all these volunteer things that I was doing around
the country from 2007 until 2012, roughly. I
was in charge of the national 9 -11 flag. I had
a dozen guys from the FDNY. We had some firefighters
from Utica, Illinois, and some firefighters from
Slidell, Louisiana. And we took that flag to
all 50 states by the 10th year anniversary of
9 -11. And our job was to stand on a guard. With
that flag, you know, talk about it. And it was
great. My mind was engulfed in everything, you
know. Then that ended. And that's when things
changed. So we still had the volunteer group.
But the flag tour, which is a huge part of my
life, because I personally took that flag to
46 of the 50 states while working full duty.
You know, it was the most amazing thing I've
done with my life. And I can't thank. The FDNY
for allowing us to do that, you know. But I went
to bed one night. I had a nightmare about that
fire. And I woke up sweating like, all right,
whatever. You know, didn't bug me that much.
Went to work. Next night, there's another one.
Here's another one. What the fuck is going on
here, you know. And it was always the same thing.
It was when everything banked down and I'm trying
to get out. Now I'm actually in that building
and when I'm pulling my face piece off, I'm actually
pissing myself. So I'm pissing the bed. So I'm
waking up like this. I've woken up in the living
room on the floor. I actually crawled out of
my basement apartment, up the stairs into an
avenue and woke up at three o 'clock in the morning.
I had to put a padlock on my gate so I couldn't
get out. I was having these vivid nightmares.
I was in that building again. I was pissing my
bed. And I say that not proudly. I say that because
this is what happened to me. This is what put
me over the deep end. I'm not in the firehouse
now. I was doing light duty while we were talking
about things. Now they start, take this, take
this, take this. All right, try this, try this.
All right, so my normal weight was 194. Now I'm
not eating. I'm not sleeping because I'm scared
to go to sleep. I'm not working. Now I'm not
eating. So I'm down to like 160, 168. And I'm
depressed. Now I'm drinking. And I'm drinking.
And I'm drinking. I once walked into the bar
that doesn't exist anymore, banged down five
shots of Jameson, walked outside, threw up in
a tree, went back in and drank again. You know,
I'm on medical leave. I'm not allowed to be in
my light duty spot. You know, I was doing security
in Central Park. They didn't want me there. And
then I was doing the driving for the messenger
van in the third division. Can't drive on the
meds. So it's basically trapped home. So Hurricane
Sandy starts. And, bro, you can't make this up.
I live in a basement apartment in Howard Beach,
Queens at that point. I'm paying $800 a month.
My firehouse is three blocks away. All the greatest
Italian food you could possibly imagine within
a four block. The beach, 12 minutes away. Airport,
10 minutes away. Everything that you could possibly
ask for. We're not in an evacuation zone. Doesn't
this freaking storm come in and in 20 freaking
minutes, I got water halfway up my freaking door.
So now I'm stuck upstairs. Water's coming and
coming and coming. Dumpsters floating down 157th
Avenue. Everything that I own is in the basement.
You know, all my clothes, everything. Gone. Like,
everything. We're moving up on the second floor
and I see the army truck come by. Like, hey,
it's Sansom 331. Can you get me to higher ground?
Medical emergencies only, asshole. And guys are
laughing. I'm like, holy shit. This is my company
right up the fucking street. I just identified,
you know where I live because they've all been
in my house. You know what I mean? I got, when
the water went down, I got out of there. I swam
a couple blocks to high ground and walked to
my mom's house in absolute shock and terror.
Like, I can't believe this. Now, mind you, I
got all of this business going on with these
nightmares now too. I just lost everything in
20 minutes. The girl I was dating at the time,
her fence blew down. She was way far inland and
she got all mad that I didn't come over there.
So there was more. Then I get back there the
next day and, you know, water recedes. But then
there's like two, three feet of water still in
the basement. So my apartment is uprooted up
and did everything like memories that I had from
that flag tour. I actually kept all my plane
tickets and stuff like that. These are things
that I looked at when I had these nightmares
and I thought about the, you know, thought about
the good times. to try to get my mind off of
waking up and being miserable like that. And
everything is gone, you know, with the exception
of Laurie Tisch, Steve Tisch's sister from the
New York Giants comes to my house and helps clean
up my basement apartment. I mean, that was pretty
cool. But the volunteer family was there for
me. They helped me financially for a little bit.
FEMA gave me a little over $2 ,000 as a basement
apartment. The landlord was so awesome. I was
able to rebuild and I was rent free for a few
years, almost a year. But now I'm going through
all of this stuff and then I go in for my board
for my retirement and they deny me. So now I
crash even more. So that was the end of everything
for me. Beginning of January of 2013, I was complete,
total, 100 % mental, physical, emotional breakdown.
I was able to find a doctor that was able to
get me on some medication. So they got me on
a Buspirone, the Buspar. What the hell was that
crap? I got an antipsychotic and an anti -anxiety.
So I had Trazodone and a Lazapine. I had some
pretty heavy -duty meds going. Now, I still take
the Buspirone. That's for the anxiety, and that
has helped me out in crunches. But these other
pills, they got me even more wackier. And mind
you, I was medicated for a year and a half prior,
too. I was able to get myself settled. Went back
to the board, and they retired me. So, you know,
it was a mental issue. You know, it was unfit
for firefighting, unfit permanent. All right.
So can I physically be a firefighter? Yes. Because
of the mental thing, the fire department was
a huge trigger. It really was. Another reason
why I packed and moved out of New York City was
to get away from the city. You know, I can go
down there, but I can't really stay there that
long. And the longer that I stay down there,
the more. my mind goes back to 2012, 2011, 2010.
And it takes weeks for me to get myself back
to my level playing field where I am right now.
But that fire every day, it's there every day,
every night, you know, upon the anniversary,
you know, August is a very difficult month. You
know, I just recently lost my brother in 2022.
That was August. We got the anniversary of the
fire, August 18th. And then 9 -11 comes on. That
tears me up every year. You know, my mom's not
doing well. She's in a nursing home. She just
turned 79. So it's the beginning. August is the
worst time of the year for me. My wife didn't
know how bad my PTSD was until she witnessed
me having a nightmare. Now, we were on the second
floor in the apartments before we got the house.
And I told her from the get -go. If you see me
crawling around, just make sure I don't hurt
myself. Don't wake me up. Let it play out. She
followed me around. I'm banging on walls and
I try going out the window. Come to rest in front
of the couch. So June, July, everything starts
up again. Now, mind you, very, very, very heavy
into alcohol for years. Shots. I was drinking
myself away, drinking away the pain and the nightmares
still. even being away from the city. And it
was messing up with my health too. You know,
my pancreatitis a couple of times. And, you know,
I just, you can see the difference in me over
the years with the weight gain from the drinking
and stuff like that. And, you know, I guess when
my brother died, you know, that kind of stopped
the whole drinking thing. He died from alcoholism.
You know, I had that on my mind. And his sickness
and death caused even more. personal things that
affected what i already deal with with ptsd that's
got me second guessing everything in my life
you know so um basically what i did was i i i
try to take everything that i've experienced
and share it with the next generation and i've
been fortunate enough up here in monroe county
i've talked to multiple career departments their
officers, their new recruits for their survival
week. And I've shared my story in depth on Deutsche
Bank and what happened to me after and told them,
look, going forward, the stigma, and that's the
biggest problem as a first responder, is there's
still a stigma that if you talk about what's
going on in your mind with a bad call, that you're
not a man, you're not a woman, you're a piece
of garbage, or you're weak. That stigma still
does exist. i'm trying to break that just like
what you're doing you're definitely breaking
the stigma because you're getting people to open
up and talk about traumatic events that dictated
their futures you know um but that fire is constantly
with me every day and it's going to be with me
every day and uh yeah that's that's pretty much
uh yeah well firstly i mean what's interesting
is As you mentioned, when you completed the flag
tour and you didn't have as much to occupy you,
that's when it really reared its head. And I've
made this observation a lot more recently. We
have, as we affectionately call, the overtime
horse in the fire service. And the question is
always, why would you not want to go home? And
the more I learn, the more I realize, well, it's
probably a huge red flag for someone who's trying
to... fill the downtime with busyness so they
don't have to think, whether it's conscious or
subconscious. Some of these people, it's probably
from their childhood. It's probably from some
trauma that they never addressed. But yeah, when
you're constantly busy, we talk about alcoholism,
we talk about pills, we talk about gambling and
infidelity and all these other kind of red flags,
but busyness. If you are seeking overtime, working
other jobs, constantly going and traveling away
from your family for conferences, There's a balance,
of course, between being a passionate firefighter
and wanting to learn. But conversely, if you're
just constantly all in with the fire service,
are you actually avoiding something that you
need to be addressing? And if it's just left
unaddressed and all of a sudden you're not busy
anymore for whatever reason, the flag tour in
your case, now all of a sudden Pandora's box
just explodes open. Yeah. And that's something
too. I definitely didn't do these things because
I wanted to forget that fire. I did these things
because I was enjoying it, you know, and I didn't
know how dependent my life was without having
something like that to do, you know, and, but
there were a lot of triggers too. And there's
still triggers, you know, even to this day, I
can't walk into an elevator without having my
face directed in which I know the way out is.
I have a very difficult time going into high
rise buildings. I count doors. I count floors.
I look for everything. If I have to go, where
am I going this way, that way? How many doors
do we need to pass? My wife thought I was crazy
a couple weeks ago. We were on the 10th floor
of a 10 -story hotel. And I knew it was six seconds
from the elevator to the first door. And I knew
that there were 14 doors. And I knew that there
was six doors on the other end that would get
me to another exit. And I did this three times
just to make sure I burned it into my head. And
when I would go out of the room, I would close
my eyes going out. I wouldn't even have to open
my eyes. I knew exactly where I was going. You
know, that's an effect of what I dealt with with
that fire. You know, there's buildings I can't
go into that remind me. And I can't go into crawl
spaces too much anymore. You know, and these
are all from being trapped in that building.
And I'll tell you, bro, I never thought I would
hear myself on a radio giving a mayday. I never
thought in my life that that would happen. And
I heard it. And I can hear it like it was yesterday.
You know, and I hate Saturdays. I absolutely
hate Saturdays because that fire was on a Saturday.
You know, my dad died on a Saturday. You know,
there's certain things that it's crazy what the
mind does. You know, but I've been fortunate
to step away from the booze and drink myself.
And even I've had the breakdown last Sunday.
You know, I didn't want drugs and I didn't want
alcohol. And I worked the problem. I worked through
it. But it's still with me and it could take
months before I get back to where I was before.
And I hadn't felt that bad since the breakdown
in 2012. But yeah, the mind's a tricky thing.
Well, you talked about how it's helped telling
your story to the next generation. You talked
about how some of these medications have been
of help. What other tools have you found help
move the needle without medication and or alcohol?
You know, going out and talking to these youngsters,
you know, I've had a few of them reach out to
me after my little lectures. You know, I don't
charge for these things. I share my story. You
know, you got a T -shirt, a patch or a sticker.
Sounds good. You know, and that that has helped
me because I have a plan and it seems to be working.
You know, I'm on my second year doing this. If
I didn't think it was going to work, I would
have given up. But I just thought people shoot
a text once in a while, so it's worth me trying.
Because I feel if I can, you know, it takes a
strong person or a crazy person to walk into
a room of total strangers and admit you pissed
the bed for two years. And I'll tell you, I've
driven, I don't even remember how I got there.
I got on the car one night. I drove west on 80,
ended up in Ohio, drive back and come back via
Rochester, check into a hotel, go to sleep, have
a nightmare, piss to bed, pack my bag and get
in the car and drive right back to New York City.
There were so many negative things and I share
that with people in the hopes that they don't
make the mistakes that I did. You can pick up
the phone and call. Don't get that last bottle
of Jameson. We don't need you wrapping yourself
around a tree. But that's what I try to do without
taking edibles or alcohol is try to focus on
how I can get the story out and help the next
gen. What about the psychedelic route? Actually,
I was just talking to one of my friends, John
Walters, Rescue One. And, you know, now a lot
of that community are starting to lean into that,
too. A lot of the Navy SEALs really led the charge,
I think, for uniform professions. But now we're
seeing the 343 Fund and some of these other organizations
opening up and really pulling our profession
in as well. And you're hearing a lot of success
stories. And, of course, it's not a magic bullet.
But it's a tool. It's another way of unlocking
some of these boxes that were just not available
to us 5, 10, 15 years ago. Have you looked into
that route yourself? So I take my edibles. And
it's been a life changer. Four years now, I have
a buddy that made some really good chocolate.
They've helped me get a good night's sleep. I've
had good dreams. The good dreams have definitely
outweighed the bad. The nightmare is still there.
They're intense but not as vivid as they used
to be. Probably because I'm still trying to desensitize
myself from it by talking about it so much. But
it actually feels better for me because I feel
like I can put more together now than I could
before. The pill medications that they had me
on, the side effects were insane. I'm either
gaining 30 pounds or I have no appetite or my
stomach's a disaster. I mean, I firmly believe
my stomach problems are because all of these
meds that they gave me, you know, trying to figure
out what's going to help me get sleep. You know,
it was so bad for that period of time that, like,
I couldn't even exist. If I got three hours of
sleep a day, that was a miracle. You know, but
the edibles have helped calm me down a little
bit, you know. I mean, I only do them when I'm
home. I don't, you know, I don't go to work or
anything like that, you know. And I also try
to bide my time with side work and stuff too,
you know. But, yeah, I'm glad that the brothers
and sisters are allowed to do the marijuana.
I'll come right out and say it because I think
it's better and safer than alcohol, you know.
And I think if they do it right. It can help
them deal with what they're dealing with. Yeah.
Well, I mean, not just the CBD or the THC, but
also you've got, you know, ayahuasca, psilocybin,
you know, 5 -MeO -DMT, MDMA -led psychotherapy,
you know, ketamine. There's so many other areas
now. And for acute events like yours, I mean,
they're extremely successful. MDMA, for example,
you know, you're leading through it, but you're
not having this physiological response. And when
you talk about the bedwetting and the night terrors,
I had that when I was young. And it's funny because
for the whole time I was a firefighter, I'd kind
of locked this memory away, but I was in a house
fire when I was four, like legitimately almost
died. And then lo and behold, I have night terrors
when I'm young and I'm literally, my parents
found me climbing out of the third story window
about to plunge to my death. So I had bars on
my windows as a child. That kind of tells you,
I used to wet the bed through to my early, early,
if not mid teens, like, you know, embarrassingly
old at that point. So I'm going to put that out
there too. This is the thing. And where did that
come from? Well, clearly it was trauma. I just
didn't, no one was talking about it when I was
young. You know, I was just a bedwetter. Here's
more shame and guilt to your shame and guilt.
So, so yeah, but I mean, seeing this toolbox
just gets so much bigger now and these kind of
psychedelic. um compounds that are allowing people
to revisit these traumas and reframe them in
a completely different way where it's not creating
nightmares anymore if you haven't gone down that
road yet it's you'll be you'll be amazed and
probably excited about some of the results you're
seeing from some of the other fdny men and women
that have gone through it yeah see i feel i i
feel i'm in a good place you know a couple weeks
ago a couple I shut my phone down, I turn off
Facebook, and I only talk to my wife and a couple
of people. I feel bad. My wife asked me last
night, I'm going to get tickets to this when
it goes. No, I'm not there yet. I don't want
to be out in public yet like that because I still
have things that are lingering. I also don't
want to take any more pills. I really, truly
in my heart believe the medication. I was a pincushion
of antidepressants, antipsychotics. I mean, one
of those things had me in the hospital with a
damn pariprism. You know, I drive to the hospital
in a towel. You know, they don't tell you that
on the side effects. And that could have been
really bad for me. Any other guy, for that matter,
you know. But, I mean, those edibles have seemed
to have helped me out, you know. keep me calm
and if these things are working for the other
other uh members uh that's great you know you
know somebody asked me if i want to try shrooms
i'm like yeah no i'm not going to do that um
i don't want one of these nightmares to kick
in that would definitely cause problems i think
yeah i mean the one that i want to do i'm going
to do um is the mdma -led psychotherapy because
that one is you know it's more kind of reducing
the body's response to it it's not that you're
prescribed it you go and you do it while you're
sitting with a counselor and they help you unpack
some of the things and uh you know that's the
one i've tried recreationally a long time ago
so i i'm familiar with that compound and i just
danced a lot and hugged a bunch of people when
i was doing it but um but also it's like i don't
know what else is there because it's not you
know, ironically, totally conversely to my childhood,
then I do a whole career, well, a 14 year career
in the fire service. And I don't have the nightmares
and I don't have what so many other people have,
but I have the brain fog and I have the fatigue
and I have, you know, so there's this, obviously
it's going to take its toll, whether it's bothering
you or not, it's still going to have an impact
of 14 years of all the horrible shit that we
see. So I'm, I want to do it just to see, okay,
what am I not? And it might be, again, nothing
to do with the fire service and everything to
do with my early life. But I trust that particular
compound in a way that I know that, you know,
it would be a very positive experience. But it's
just knowing that those are even options, I think,
is exciting for a lot of people that have lost
hope. Because, you know, so many people have
heard that story. Well, I saw a counselor that
gave me a bunch of meds, especially the VA stories.
And, you know, it made me realize that I am broken
and I may as well just end it now. But if you
tell them, no, no, no, that's 10 % of what's
actually available there from what I've just
talked about through the equine therapy, through
the retreats, through the, you know, all these
other areas. Well, now you can say, okay, well,
I like this bit and this seems interesting to
me and I've always loved horses. And now you
start putting this together. But if you tell
people that all that's available to them is talking
to someone and popping pills, well, I think that's
where a lot of the desperation comes from. Yeah.
Yeah, my wife and I went and talked to a counselor
because there were some other issues going on.
And I'd gone in there and she said, you know,
Jimmy, there's really nothing I can do for you.
I was like, no, there's not. You don't have to
talk about anything. I said, no, I don't. I have
everything in control, you know, and I think
I'm managing everything better than a lot of
other people would. I mean, if I went on and
explained what I'm dealing with with my family
right now. It would it would it's a rabbit hole
that there's no escape from, you know, and that
takes a toll. And, you know, you know, if I thought
I needed to go talk to a counselor, I would.
But I feel like I've I've gotten to a point that
I know how to keep everything in check, if that
makes any sense right now. You know, I know that
I had a couple of guys from the job come up and
they came to a lecture that I did a couple of
weeks ago. And one of the guys has been texting
me that he thinks this helped him a little bit.
And this is a guy that worked 9 -11, you know,
and, you know, when are we doing it again? So,
you know, I now know that this is going to help
somebody. And then talking with you and doing
this with you, you know, I really believe that.
people are going to see this and be like, wow,
you know, this guy can get through what he's
dealing with. I can get through it too. James,
thanks a lot, man. This is great what you're
doing. You know, and then the next guy sees it
and the next girl sees it. The next thing you
know, you got everybody trying to get themselves
back on the same page, but educating the next
generation at the same time. Absolutely. And
not giving that environment of suck it up, buttercup,
rub some dirt in it that, you know, our generation
was raised in because that is the mentality that
puts people in the ground. Don't get me wrong.
You can't be a pussy and be a firefighter either.
I get that part completely. That's why we have
an aggressive academy and probation. But yeah,
after that, you know, you've got to be in the
flow state, you know, have that kind of, you
know, go to work mentality. But after you have
to allow people. to process what they've seen.
And then again, at the front door, understanding
that most of us say, I want to be there when
most people don't. There's a reason for that.
And addressing the first 18, 20, 25 years of
someone's life at the front door and saying,
hey, what led you into this profession is an
opportunity for us to start doing some work mentally
as well to turn that into resilience. trauma
into an asset, into scars that you're proud of
rather than the debilitating ones. Yeah. I've
also seen, and there will never be mentions of
organizations, but it's definitely common around
the country. You got some organizations that
are keeping the real truth about PTSD, trauma,
bad fires, bad car accidents, bad motorcycle
accidents. From the next generation of members
coming up, you know, you can't you can't. They
got to stop doing that. You got to expose them
to the realities of it. As soon as you can. One,
they need to be mentally prepared for what they
may see or they may not see. And two, you know,
I would feel a lot better knowing that the person
that's behind me isn't going to up and bail out
because something went on. You know what I mean?
Or somebody is unable to do CPR on a patient
or somebody is unable to help take down that
person hanging in a garage. You know, that's
something that they need to work on, too. But
they got to get the word out that mental health
is a very big part of being a first responder.
You know, and listen, it's not for everybody.
You know, I don't think about any of the horrible
EMS calls that I've seen. I think about one fire.
One. You know, unless somebody asked me, like,
if I see Tinkerbell, I got to turn it off, you
know, because I had a car accident where a woman
had Tinkerbell seat covers. We got her out alive.
I talked to her and she died in the ambulance.
You know, but I don't think about that 24 -7.
You know, I don't think of the young mother trying
to kill her newborn baby and me launching that
mother into the toilet bowl. You know, I don't
think about that every day. I'm pretty sure she's
still in hell, but, you know. Yeah, the mental
health aspect of this and what you're doing I
think is fantastic. With the book and this, you
get the stories out there for everybody to come
to terms with what they're dealing with by seeing
that other people are going through the same
thing. Yeah, exactly. It's the thing. And we've
been talking about mental health in the uniform,
but it extends out. And I would argue even that
mother, clearly she was going through some stuff
herself. And this is it. If we can stop this
generational trauma, these dominoes that are
just falling one onto the other onto the other,
then the amount of acute calls that first responders
go to would get less and there'd be less exposure
to trauma. I think it's what maddens me so much
is there are answers. Doesn't mean you can save
everyone. Doesn't mean certainly that you can
stop every, you know, trauma and every war and
every, you know, domestic abuse and every addiction
and suicide. But my God, you could make such
a huge dent. You could save so many from that.
But, you know, it takes courage and it takes
moral courage. And that's I think that circles
around what we were saying earlier. I want to
throw some quick closing questions out before
I let you go. The first one I love to ask, is
there a book or other books that you love to
recommend? It can be related to our conversation
today or completely unrelated. You know, American
firefighter, PTSD, PTSI, Carla Lundlade, she's
a clinical therapist. She has been. She actually
interviewed me and a couple other FDNY members,
and she put these things together as a training
for PTSD, PTSI awareness with the first responder
community. She's hoping to do it for police and
military. And then about Deutsche Bank, about
that fire, you can go on Amazon and write, the
fix is in. Joey Graffagnino's father wrote it.
And you can read that and you'll see pictures
and you'll understand why that fire never should
have happened in the first place. And understand
the conditions that, you know, we were in. You
know, when I do my little talks and stuff, I
tell these guys, we could train, train, train
all we want. But what we experienced that day,
there was no training that could have helped
us at that point. Because things happen that
you couldn't expect. Which means... You have
to expect the unexpected as a first responder.
You know, we didn't think that far ahead, you
know, but things have changed since. Beautiful.
What about film, television, documentaries, any
of that media? So, honestly, I would stay. I
would stay off the World Wide Web with all of
the political nonsense that's going on. And I
would look at some of these organizations that
are doing great things. A Soldier's Journey Home,
they take first responders, 9 -11, firefighters,
military, active and retired around the country,
and they build a home for a soldier that's been
injured. That's a Soldier's Journey Home. And
there's a lot of groups out there that you could
just pay it forward to. I feel that if people
get involved in something like that, it's going
to help them. And that's what I try to, when
I do my talks and stuff, I explain to people
that there are things out there. You know, there
are things we can do, you know, and we can do
it all together. You know, I recently, a year
ago, maybe a little longer, I took a county fire
test up here because three or four young people
wanted to take the test. I'm like, you know what?
If you're going to take this test, I will take
it with you. two of them are actually in the
fire academy you know so like if you go online
there's a lot there's good you got to look if
you write pay it forward you're going to see
all kinds of things come up you can go look up
um stars of hope uh new york says thank you the
national 9 -11 flag and you know um you'll see
all kinds of different groups and i think that
might help people too absolutely Well, what about
guests? Is there a person that you'd recommend
to come on this show as a guest to speak to the
first responders, military and associated professions
of the world? You know, I'll tell you, I think.
I don't know who I could recommend for you to
talk to. I don't think a lot of those stories
are ready to be told yet. I don't think a lot
of these guys and girls are ready to talk about
it yet. I mean, there are a couple people that
I would recommend you talk to that could definitely
open up your minds on people, open up their minds
and help them. I'm going to have to think about
that. Not everybody can talk about this stuff.
You know that. Absolutely. That's why I'm always
in awe of the people that do, you know, that
courageous vulnerability, because it's what people
need to hear. And we talk about stigma, not only
the suicide, but the addiction side, you know,
the opioid overdoses. And, you know, that, you
know, I would argue is more shame and guilt.
You can be an alcoholic, that's fine. But God
forbid you use, you know, meth or opioids and
you die that way, then, you know, we still kind
of rush that under the carpet. So when people
come out here and they talk about their struggles,
especially, you know, with those. I think it
really helps break the mold. You know, if you're
struggling, then you fill the void with whatever
the thing is that you fill the void with. You
know, as we talked about, it might be overtime,
it might be heroin. But, you know, it's the same
problem. It's that trauma that you're trying
to bury, basically. Yeah, I mean, I've basically
taken my trauma and turned it into part of my
French, my bitch. You know, it's going to be
with me forever, but I'm going to use it. I'm
going to abuse it. I'm going to burn it into
people's heads, you know. And if I do it for
five years, great. If I do it for five days,
great, you know. I'm thankful that I didn't resort
to other things that I did in the past, you know.
I have my wife. I have a close, close network
of people. And I'm in a good place that I didn't
have that before. And every one of us at some
point in our lives as a first responder, military
as well, we get to a point where we think we've
hit rock bottom. You know what? I did hit rock
bottom and I got out. I went rock bottom two
weeks ago. I'm still here. It's just something
that we have to adapt and learn how to overcome.
And if we can share that with each other, let
people know, then we should be okay. Absolutely.
Well, what do you do to decompress these days?
This is different now because I'm not drinking.
But whenever I'd have a detail or something or
I have a talk, I'd go get a sandwich or I'd take
a shot or have a drink or two. We went out after
the last talk we did. We went out to Shamrock
Jackson around the Quake, New York. These guys
had a couple of drinks. I had a couple of Pepsis,
you know, and I thought about, you know, everything,
how it went. Got some good feedback. And I came
home and I took an edible and I went to bed.
And, you know, I'll sit down and watch the ends
of my favorite movies. I'll play video games.
It's leaf time, so I can go out with the leaf
blower and the tractor and cut them up and blow
them all up to the gutter. You know, go down
to camp. My camp is actually coming home in a
week, maybe. fire off some rounds you know at
targets in the woods because you know it's a
second amendment right and it's nice you know
because you get down there like all right that's
pretty good nice grouping there and that's it
you know uh and clean i mean i it's committee
work we call it in the firehouse but i committee
work my house pretty much every day you know
um running around cleaning um but then side work
i mean that's how i decompress brilliant Well,
I want to thank you so much for taking the time
to come on. If people want to reach out to you,
you know, learn more about you, maybe even get
you in to talk, where are the best places online
to find you? I mean, you got me on the Instagram.
That's really the best way to find me right now.
I think it's SeamusSands10. It's all lowercase
if they want to reach out that way. But I have
the YouTube that I have the videos and my little
lectures on. Um, that's NYC fire guy. So they
can go on there and they can see some of these
lectures that I give, you know, um, I try to
put them up and, uh, if people want to watch
them, um, they can watch them and understand
what that fire is about. You know, um, I do it
two different ways. I talk with the career department
one way and the volunteers the other way, because
the career department, I go a little bit more
in how you're supposed to be when you're brand
new in a firehouse based on what I learned. But
I don't do that with the volleys because it's
not like that for them. You know, and then I
get very, very dead on serious with the career
than I do with the volleys because they're not
career, if that makes any sense. But they get
the same story. You know, I also don't want to
terrify them either. Yeah, absolutely. Well,
I want to thank you so much. It's been such an
amazing conversation. Like I said, courageous
vulnerability. And then also, you know, just
underlining the fact that every time. Any of
the people that come on this show have to revisit
some of their traumas to tell this story. I understand
that, you know, there's an element of catharsis,
but also it is kind of reopening the wound a
little bit. So I know, though, that as you alluded
to earlier, that there are going to be so many
people listening that are going to gain a lot
from this conversation. So I want to thank you
so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.
Thanks, brother. Stay safe, okay?