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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,
Marcus Capone. Now, for those of you who've listened
to multiple episodes, you have probably heard
at least one Navy SEAL talking about the incredible
success they had with Ibogaine for their TBIs
and PTSD. Well, the man behind the nonprofit
vets that sent many of these sailors through
this program is Marcus Capone. So in this incredible
conversation, we discuss a host of topics from
his own journey into the military, ascending
to the tier one level, his own mental health
struggle. finding psychedelics, the healing power
of Ibogaine, and so much more. Before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
single week, please just take a moment, go to
whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every five -star rating truly does elevate this
podcast, making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library for you, Planet Earth.
So all I ask in return is that you help share
these incredible men and women's stories so I
can get them to every single person who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Marcus Capone. Enjoy. All right. Well,
Marcus, I want to say thank you so much for coming
on the show. And I also want to say thank you
to Ryan Parrott for connecting us. And yeah,
so welcome to the podcast today. Yeah, thank
you so much, Ryan. Thank you if you're out there.
And James, thanks for having me. I'm excited
to be here and humbled and always grateful for
having good friends. And yeah, this is going
to be great. So thank you. No, thank you. And
I will get into why, but obviously many of the
CEOs have had on the show. You and the organization
that you've created with Amber has helped so
many lives. So I'm really, really excited to
kind of go down that path with you as not only
your personal experience, but again, how after
leaving a life of service, you found another
way to continue that service. I think it's important.
So where on planet Earth roughly are we finding
you today? So today I am in the lovely city of
Coronado, California. So it's a little peninsula.
That sticks out, I guess, off of the city of
San Diego. And there's a bridge. You fly into
the international airport. And within, I don't
know, 13 minutes, you're in Coronado. And half
the base is Naval Air Station. And the other
half is a beautiful city. And it's pretty wonderful
here. And what a lot of people don't know is
that this is where SEAL training, BUDS, takes
place, right? Literally. five minutes from my
house. And yeah, I don't think most of the, most
of the world knows that it's public knowledge,
but it's pretty wild that individuals stay at
the hotel Del Coronado and they see these freakishly
looking individuals that are, you know, running
down the beach with boats on their heads or doing
a swim out in the ocean. So it's pretty cool.
And we just, and we just love it here. It's got,
it's a beach is close. The neighborhood's great.
You can kind of hop in a golf cart and go anywhere
or take a walk and be at Starbucks in five minutes.
So what's not to love except for some steep taxes
here in the state. They call it the sunshine
tax. At least that's what I tell myself after
leaving Texas and coming back out here. Yeah,
they're pretty good in Florida. They don't have
quite as many taxes and we still have the sunshine.
But I think the humidity takes away from it.
So we pay tax in humidity, I think. That's right.
And a few hours from the mountains and a beautiful
Pacific Ocean. It's all good. I can't complain.
I drove to Anaheim because that's where I used
to work, Anaheim Fire, from San Diego a few years
ago now on a visit. And when I was going up PCH,
there was some sort of operation going on. It
was amazing. So I pulled over and stood there
and there were gunships. Every sort of craft,
aquatic and aviation, was taking part in some
obviously massive multi -company organization,
but it was absolutely incredible to watch. Yeah,
that's pretty cool. James, where was that exactly?
I want to say, if I'm not totally screwing it
up, probably about 30 minutes north of San Diego,
if I've got that right. so and this would have
been several years ago now but um yeah i mean
obviously it's a known place because i mean there
was a kind of pull over spot and a whole bunch
of other people were watching too but yeah pretty
phenomenal and not often you get to go to the
beach and watch a gigantic military operation
practicing right in front of you yeah that's
right i'm wondering if it is up near camp pendleton
uh marine corps base that's i don't know i'd
say probably 45 minutes north of san diego and
then you have to drive probably about 20 minutes
on the PCH to get past it. And then you're in
San Clemente and there's a lot of activity that
happens there. They have, I forgot the name of
the craft or the assault crafts there. And they
do a bunch of, you know, rotary, rotary wing
work, you know, both right across the PCH and
then hop back over to the main base at Camp Pendleton.
And so it's pretty cool. Every time you drive
by there, you see something. fun going on i think
it was now you say that i'm thinking of coronado
but yeah it was pendleton probably that i was
closer to so yeah absolutely all right well then
so before we even get to your timeline then you
know the west coast seals obviously coronado
is kind of the base for them is it something
that you just never moved away or have you kind
of moved away and then moved back as a base again
now yeah we um i I was medically retired actually
in 2013. And I, we moved up to LA, we moved up
to Calabasas for a year. I got a really, really
good position at Morgan Stanley private bank.
And I thought that I wanted to do that for the
rest of my life. That lasted about a year, but
it was a great step off and to the private sector.
And after about a year, I found my way at a private
equity firm out of New York City, Fortress Investment
Group. And I started to commute from LAX to the
East Coast. And I only did that for a few months.
And that was just starting to get really challenging.
And so long story short, Amber, my wife's dad,
had taken the offensive coordinator position
at University of Texas football. And so we decided
to kind of move halfway. And so we moved to a
suburb of Dallas called South Lake. And it was
great. It was good for the seven years that we
lived there. And as soon as our kids graduated,
our daughter wanted to go to school in California.
And she's a freshman at San Diego State. And
we decided to move back. And so, you know, with
kids out the door and my mother in Florida and
my wife's family in the Midwest. You know, we
didn't know really where to go. So we always
said when we get back to California, we'll probably
live anywhere somewhere between Coronado and
Newport Beach. We just kind of love a lot of
the you know, we love most of the beach towns.
And so right now we're in Coronado, but we're
actively looking. And I think within a month,
if we got back on here, I would tell you we will
either still be living in Coronado or somewhere
up the coast, either in North County, San Diego
or potentially in Orange County. Yeah, it's gorgeous
there. When I worked for Anaheim, I first started
in Burbank, which was typically the moving to
LA story. I was under the Burbank airport living
in an absolute rat hole. But as I progressed
and got some money under me, I ended up at Huntington
Beach. Now, not on the beach, kind of more towards
Westminster, but gorgeous down there. It really
is. I love Huntington. I do. It's like kind of
more my style. I grew up in an East Coast beach
town in Long Beach, and I could definitely live
in Huntington. prices are actually are a lot
better than like, if you're looking in Newport
or Laguna or some other places, but, um, you
know, I just, I think Huntington beach is great.
And, um, so we'll see, we'll see where we end
up, but for me to be close to the water is important.
You know, if I can be on a board, um, or with
fins on, you know, or with a dive mask, I'm good
to go. Brilliant. Well, you mentioned Long Beach
and you mentioned football. So I know those kind
of factor into your earlier story. So let's start
at the very beginning. Tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did and how many siblings.
Yeah, I was actually born in Queens. Both my
parents are from Flushing and Bayside. My dad
went to Holy Cross High School in Flushing, Old
Boys Catholic High School from 60 to 64. And
my mom went to Bayside High School. They didn't
know each other. They grew up. three, I don't
know, less than three miles apart, but never
didn't really know each other until they're in
their, I guess, late twenties. But yeah, so my,
my dad was a, you know, an altar boy at four
years old, you know, Catholic school, like strong
Catholic school upbringing. And my mom comes
from a Jewish family, Kaplans, Ukrainian, Ukrainian
Jews. And yeah, they, they kind of raised me
with no religion, just kind of. kind of just
threw me out there but I I grew up very um very
busy like I never felt like I was ever bored
and I you know I always I played a sport uh from
the day I could remember I was on skis at three
years old and I actually have some memories of
that at Keystone in Colorado where I learned
how to ski and I think I was thrown in the pool
at right when I turned four And so, you know,
that's all I knew. And then, you know, gradually
grew into everything, wrestling, baseball, football,
basketball. Even though I grew up on Long Island,
I had a short stint in lacrosse, but lacrosse
and baseball overlapped. So, yeah, it was just
really just a very busy life in sports. And my
dad was, you know, pretty, I think, pretty tough
on me when it came to athletics. Um, and I grew
up, uh, as I mentioned in a, in an East coast
beach town. So we had a great swim team. Um,
I couldn't wait to be a lifeguard when I turned
16 and, and that was like the dream job. You
got paid a ton of money to, you know, sit on
the beach all day, work out, run, do pull -ups
and pushups and swim and all that good stuff.
So, um, yeah, it was, it was awesome, but you
know, my parents didn't know this at the time,
but I was supposed to be born in Southern California.
This is why we're here now. But yeah, I went,
so I, I didn't go to public high school from
Long Beach. I actually traveled an hour each
day to Holy Cross in Flushing. I kind of followed
my, my father's footsteps there. They had great.
uh, sports programs. And, um, I had played pop
Warner football with, uh, one of the individuals
whose dad was the head coach at Holy cross at
the time. And, and so I commuted, uh, every day
for four years, I took the train, uh, 20 minutes
to Valley stream and the head coach at the time,
uh, coach Pew, Tom Pew would pick me up and he
drove me the rest of the way. And so it was a
little, a little longer than an hour each. at
least going in and then with traffic, you know,
probably longer than that. And so I did that
for four years. And then I had some injuries
my junior and senior year. And although I was
a good athlete, I didn't know what I was going
to do at the time. So I got recruited to play
at Nassau Community College, which I think still
to date is one of the top junior colleges to
play football in the country. And I wound up
getting a scholarship to Southern Illinois University
out of there as a quarterback. And I joke with
people. I said I went to Southern Illinois and
I said 20 other guys on the team went to Michigan
and Ohio State and Syracuse and Georgia Tech
and always like, you know, big, big football
schools in Georgia Tech. But but anyway, yes,
it was good. And I met Amber. So I met Amber.
She was going into her senior year of college
and I was actually. Well, I was dating the coach's
daughter. Her dad was the head coach at the time
at Southern Illinois University, and he recruited
me from New York to play. But I didn't meet her
until after he left. He went to coach with Gary
Barnett at Northwestern a few years after they
had their run. And that's when I started dating
the coach's daughter. So we can go into that
for a long time. But yeah, I mean, college was
great. I loved every minute of it, maybe too
much. And when I graduated, a lot of stuff happened
when I graduated. So it was graduation. Amber
was pregnant. We got married. We had our son.
I enlisted in the Navy. And the rest is history.
That's a hell of a journey. I want to go back
all the way back a couple of generations for
a second. You said about Ukrainian on your mother's
side. Do you have any relatives? And then do
you have any perspective either family wise or
maybe even from deeper into your career on that
whole crisis that we're going through at the
moment or they're going through? We're not going
through it. Yeah. You know, I just have to say,
I don't know. You know, I grew up in like that
household. I call it like the typical Long Island
household. Maybe it wasn't so typical, but, you
know, religion wasn't like a big deal in the
household. There wasn't a whole lot of patriotism.
You know, I heard a lot about music and Woodstock
and both my parents were hippies at one point
in their life. Maybe that's how I decided to
start a psychedelic nonprofit. I don't know.
Anyway, but yeah, I was like, I was just different
than both of them. Matter of fact, when I. When
I had that first call with him in college, told
him I was going in the Navy to be a SEAL, they
said they just looked at each other and they
were just like, what the fuck is wrong with him?
I thought it was the greatest thing ever, of
course. And I'm sure they're fine now. But I'm
off track, James. Where are we at? No, it's okay.
So yeah, I was going to ask you as far as the
Ukrainian perspective. So go back to Ukraine.
Yeah, I don't know. My mother's side of the family,
I don't know how many generations had come over
from the Ukraine. I'm assuming right after World
War II, but I don't know specifics. We weren't
very close to either both sides of the family.
I don't know why, but my family consisted of
myself, my mother, and my father. We had a ton
of animals. Always had dogs and cats. But that
was it. We didn't really see a lot of cousins
and aunts and uncles. And we did time to time
and they were all amazing. But I just thought
it was, you know, when I met Amber, who was the
complete opposite, came from this family in the
Midwest that was just massive. And it was always
like all the families got together on Sundays.
And so I don't know, maybe it had to do with,
I think my dad was a wise guy back in the day,
you know, banged around with some of the Italian.
you know, Italian families. And I think when
I was born, they wanted to get away from all
that. And so moved out to the Island to have
me and kind of raised me in a, in a, you know,
in a neighborhood away from, uh, some of the,
uh, some of the antics that were ever going on
in Queens and in the five boroughs at the time.
So, um, but yeah, I don't, you know, I wish I
knew, I know, you know, we're doing a lot to,
to figure out how we can help, help. The Ukrainians
figure out the mess that they're currently in.
So we're trying to do some work on the nonprofit
side, at least on the mental health side, trying
to help them with resources and figure out some
game plans. We're actually working with pretty
high up government officials from the ministry
there. And we'll see what happens in the near
future. But we're actually. helping them come
up with some options and some game plan. And,
and it's going to, it's going to be a long, it's
going to be a long, it's a long game. The individuals
that we've spoken to think that actually this
war is going to go on for years. So it's not
going to end anytime soon because our question
was, Hey, you know, when do you want to get started?
You know, would you want to implement these,
these treatments in the near term, or do you
want to wait until the war's over and their response
right from the. The mouth of one of the individuals
in Ukraine said, Marcus, this war is going to
go on for a long time. And so we just need to
get started in terms of training therapists and
unregulating some of the medicines there. And
so we brought in, you know, obviously some other
experts to help with that. But, you know, they're
going to be there for a while. That's so sad
to hear. But I mean, you know, look at Afghanistan.
That was 20 years. So, yeah. Right. Nothing happens,
you know. too quickly and and um the ukrainians
are a tough tough tough bunch and they're not
going anywhere you know and now of course you
and nato everyone's stepping in um you know russia's
gotta they have a much tougher battle than they
originally expected so yeah well thank you for
that perspective well speaking of the military
then so you're playing football simultaneously
Dating the coach's daughter, you know, timeline
forgiving, of course. Talk to me about your career
aspirations when you were playing. Were you hoping
to go pro? And if not, what caused that shift
into the Navy? Yeah, so I had the juvenile mindset
that I thought I was going to go play NFL football
for 30 years. You know, my dad wanted me to really
play baseball, play Major League Baseball. And
he just said, you know, so much easier on your
body. this and that. And I don't know, I wasn't,
I really wasn't listening to, I loved football.
I loved like that whole, just like team aspect
and, and, uh, the, the, just everything that,
that comes with football and you kind of lean
on one another and you can't be an individual.
And, and so, yeah, I thought I would play ball
forever, but, um, that of course didn't happen.
And, uh, I really, you know, I really didn't
think about time in the military until it was
my junior. I think it was my start of my senior
year, end of my junior year. We were just chatting
about this today, actually, on another call.
I saw a special on Discovery, and I don't know
if it was class 208. It was actually Andy Stump's
class, ironically, and I did Andy's podcast a
few months back. We didn't talk about that at
all there. we should have, but that it was his
class. And I just remember thinking like, this
is awesome. And Amber, Amber actually has better
recollection of it. She said, she said, you were
really intrigued in all the water evolution.
So like all the, um, uh, drown proofing and not
tying and stuff that you're, you know, you're
bouncing up and down on the deck of the pool.
And I just looked at that stuff and I was like,
that's just easy. I was like anything in the
water, like, let's go. I'm down. And that was
it. And it never like nothing matriculated from
that though. It just, you know, life went on.
And then, you know, I would, I didn't ever talk
about this like years ago, of course, especially
in my time in the teams. Cause I didn't want
to get like roped up and taped and beaten, but.
One night, my roommate and I, my roommate went
on to have a stellar career. He was a four year
starter at Strong Safety. And then he went on
to fly F -18s and went to Top Gun and everything
else in the Marine Corps. And we were watching
what came on that night was G .I. Jane. And we're
sitting there. And of course, when you're a college
student who. really doesn't know anything about
life. See something that come on TV. You just
assume like, this is it, this must be it. And
so all they talked about there were, you know,
Navy SEALs. And then I think they called it some,
some units CRT, whatever it was that I didn't
know. Of course, I thought it was all real. They
just talked about this, this, this, this mythical
unit that was like the best of the best soldiers
and special operations guys. And that just intrigued
me. And like, when you watch the training, right?
Like, like people are suffering and people are
quitting and they talk about the, the rate that
only, you know, 25 % make it. And like, just
all of that was just more fuel to go, Oh man,
like this stuff is, this is hard. This is tough.
And even though it was my like Hollywood vision
of really what the SEAL teams were like, completely
intrigued me. And then of course that, that,
and then that really started. So couple of the,
the discovery channel show, um, and then GI Jane,
which I freaking pull out. None of that shit's
real, but, um, but, um, and then I started reading
like every book, uh, that I could get my hands
on. I read, gosh, I probably read over 30 books,
most of them written from Vietnam era frogs.
And, um, it was just great. Every, Each book
I read, I got more and more intrigued from wanting
to do exactly what those guys were doing. And
the more they talked about how difficult it was
to get through buds, like the more I wanted to
go. And, you know, the more they talked about
operations in Vietnam, you know, going after
like high value targets, the more I wanted to
do that. And so it just it just became an obsession,
you know, an addiction. a focus uh whatever you
want to call it and um yeah i guess the rest
is history but we're going to talk about all
that history in between so absolutely well just
before we progress into you know adulthood one
thing that really was kind of made very visible
to me about probably two years into the podcast
about four years ago now when i'd never thought
about it prior when we talk about mental health
in you know fire police military a lot of times
the the binoculars shift to oh it's what you
see it's what you do um but actually when you
take a step back you got to remember that we've
had 20 25 years prior to that to be a human being
on this earth when you look back now at your
childhood were there any elements you consider
like childhood trauma and also i've heard you
talk about this as also the tbi element too the
head trauma element yeah great question james
and Before I keep going, you were a lifeguard,
weren't you? I was. Yeah. Yeah. Never on the
ocean, though. So I did the open water and I
did pools and water parks and stuff. Cool. Very
cool. All right. Best job ever, I think. Yeah.
So, you know, yeah, I think I had some childhood
traumas. Again, what I thought was normal as
a kid, you know, your dad backhands you or, you
know, I saw I saw some pretty, you know, I saw
stuff that. Only until recently did I remember
or think about it because I never really thought
about it. Growing up at a very young age, I'm
talking about four years old, I can remember
my dad putting his hands on me. Looking back,
that wasn't cool at all because what was I? I
was about this big at that time. a really, really
bad Irish and Italian temper. Um, and sounds
like his grandfather's was worse. And I heard
his grandfather's was even worse. So generational
shit that was happening, you know, happened.
And, um, you know, I, I couldn't count the number
of times that, you know, he, he put his hands
on me, you know, whether he open, open hand,
closed fist, uh, belt buckle, um, you know, broke
my broke bones in my wrists um you know i watched
him do things to my mom that were just not you
know it's just a kid shouldn't see and so you
know and aside from the fact of him you know
just driving me and driving me and driving me
in sports um you know so maybe all that put together
is is a reason why one i couldn't wait to get
far away uh to school um I had offers to go play
ball in the, in the East coast, but I, I just
wanted to get away. And, um, so maybe that had
something to do with it. And maybe that's, you
know, part of the reason what pushed me into
special operations. I don't know. Um, so that's,
you know, that's the psychological piece, if
you want to call it, maybe some of the, some
of the stuff for growing up and then, um, and
I'm being, I'm being pretty, um, I'm being pretty
high level here, you know, like. We can go into
a lot deeper stories, but I don't know if it's
important. Yeah, I mean, feel free. The door's
open, so you go wherever you'd like to. Yeah,
well, cool. Thank you for that. But yeah, on
the TBI side, I still struggle with it, even
though I have brain scans that show I obviously
have some stuff going on in there that's probably
affecting or has affected me in the past. But
I think I started playing tackle football at
seven. I think, I'm going to say, I think Archie
Manning wouldn't let his kids play tackle football
until they were in high school. So all the sports
that they played and as good as they got, he
wouldn't let them, he didn't let them like get
touched until they were, let's say 14, 15 years
old. I remember my first hit. that I can really
remember at seven. And the gear in 1983 was probably
shit. And I remember at seven playing against
this guy. I think his name was Jarvon Jackson.
He was a 10 year old. He looked like Walter Payton
and he hit like Ronnie Lott. And I remember trying
to stuff the hole. I didn't even know what that
meant at seven years old and putting my head
down like this and literally getting run over
helmet to helmet and being knocked like so hard
that I didn't even know which way it was up or
down from this 10 year old monster. So, you know,
and then. Yeah. And then I had a career, you
know, career, career of, of everything, you know,
sports up until my, uh, well through my senior
high school, uh, excuse me, senior college. So
I played, you know, I was a football player all
the way through and, and, you know, I skied and
did everything else. And so I had definitely
a history of, uh, hard head to head com contact,
um, uh, pretty, pretty consistently. Um, and
then That was through, I guess, 22 years old.
I joined the military at 23 and had some really,
you know, of course, some pretty hard hits, both
in helmets and out of helmets through my, you
know, my 13 -year military career. I was a breacher,
so I did, I was around. um, explosive charges
pretty often. Um, you know, that's why I feel
for some of the, some of the guys I worked with,
I remember who had more time in the military
as I had. And I remember a close friend that,
um, I worked with, we were on a breaching trip
and he had, uh, he had like blood and, and, and,
um, black shit coming out of his, his nose, uh,
after a day of, of setting charges off. I remember
turning to him and just saying, Hey man, like
that just can't be good. You know, and we both
looked at each other like, yeah, you know, it
feels great right now. I love, you know, love
that shockwave, like rattling your teeth and
your head and your body. I mean, there is nothing
like it in the world, you know, but, you know,
you will pay the price eventually. And so, you
know, so I had the psychological piece, if you
want to call it trauma, probably starting as
a child. And then. You know, the TBI piece probably
starting, I guess, also as a child and really
not stopping until, I guess, probably around
2013. Yeah. And, you know, ironically and unfortunately,
my headaches now, like literally today, are just
worse than ever. And I'm a little worried. They
were definitely, you know, my cognitive functioning
is like. off the charts much better than they've
ever been. Um, but I'm getting, I'm getting really
weird headaches that I've never had before. And
it's kind of frightening me a little bit because,
um, I have had headaches throughout my career.
Um, I, I've lived on ibuprofen for so many years.
Um, I'm looking at like a new, you know, a new
pharmaceutical to take right now that doesn't
affect the stomach as much because I'm, I'm feel
like I eat those things like candy and I just
know they're not good for you. But, um, Yeah.
Just, you know, again, we were talking about
it recently. I think I'm going to go get, I'm
going to go get some, some more scans because
just for the headaches. So other than that, like
everything else is good, really good. But. these
headaches are just weird. They're happening in
weird spots that like they didn't happen before
and they come on really strong. And if I don't
take care of them immediately, I go into this
like horrible migraine, you know, where then
I have to take like ibuprofen and like find somebody
to give me a Toradol shot and like just anything
to like kill the, kill the pain. And sometimes
it's from it's from dehydration. Other times
it's just from literally like smack in my head
like if i'm surfing or something and like just
like fall off on a wave or or you know sometimes
it's just different ways i'm you know putting
my my neck so these are just things that didn't
happen before and so i'm you know i'm a little
concerned i'm just i'm not going with that there's
nothing nothing too bad in there and i'm just
maybe i'm just aging a little bit so i had um
significant amount of head trauma not probably
as much as you but i did martial arts when i
was younger um spent some time in shoot box in
la which vandal a silver's gym if you remember
that so basically fight club getting the shit
kicked out of me for a year straight did stunts
um firefighting we don't really get a lot of
head trauma ceiling falls on your head once in
a while but nothing too bad but i've always suffered
from migraines and sleep deprivation was a huge
one for me and it's funny when you talk to current
pastor you start to understand you know head
trauma and sleep deprivation pretty much mimic
the same thing physiologically but when i get
them i mean they're two days long i throw up
i have you know diarrhea i mean it's absolutely
fucking brutal and nothing nothing touches it
so the only thing that i've found aside from
transitioning off the fire service and getting
sleep is uh chiropractic like dressing the muscles
in my neck that get super tight is is you know
somewhat of a help but um yeah i feel your pain
completely because mine are completely debilitating
and i don't know if you know if there's that
much head trauma involved or it's more stress
you know deprivation all that stuff but if you
suffer from migraines i feel your pain because
they are absolutely awful yeah james i'm sorry
to hear that too because i like i said i i know
whatever i go through i i don't wish upon anyone
so like when you tell me that i i feel horrible
because i know i know what they're like and i
know sometimes when you do take medicine they
still don't go away so maybe they they they dampen
a little bit Um, but they can be, you know, when
you start pulling your hair out, literally like,
I mean, you know, it's, it's not, um, so I, I'm,
I'm sorry to hear that. I know, I know what that's
like. And, you know, I always say that I say
that I always say the same thing about depression
because I think depression is so debilitating
and I don't wish that upon anyone because sometimes
you just can't. you don't know how um or you
haven't been what i call cracked open from from
some of the medicine uh that we work with you
know you don't know how to get out of those those
deep ruts and uh i don't wish that upon anyone
either because they're just they're not fun places
to be no absolutely not and i think sadly you
know they're they're the price of them doing
business um and we can do business a lot better
because now i think we're the same are you 48
I'm 45. 45, okay, I got my math wrong. Yeah,
I'm not that old yet. So we're almost the same
age. So yeah, I mean, now if you look at martial
arts, for example, they're not kicking the shit
out of each other in gyms anymore. All the good
gyms, it's less is more. It's light sparring.
If you're going to fight, you fight in the ring.
And the same, hopefully, with my community down
the road, I hope we'll fix the shifts so that
they get a lot more rest and recovery in between.
But Kirk Parsley is one of the reasons why I
started this podcast and what he did with his
community. He was working and addressing the
sleep deprivation. and you know addressing some
of the hormones and stuff i mean it was amazing
yeah i mean i went to many years ago when we
first came out to the west coast and became very
close with kurt and kurt really you know he is
um kind of an anchor in this whole story you
know um we can get i don't maybe get into later
but you kurt was one of the reasons why i went
and did my first uh psychedelic experience um
was from him his recommendation and also um he
was working in the background with amber for
almost a year uh trying to get me to commit but
you know it takes a while of course so i have
nothing but a huge huge place in my heart for
kurt and and just as a friend as a brother as
a seal brother and of course what he's um he's
doing for and what he was doing initially for
the community when none of the what he tells
me the graybeards didn't want to listen to him
and why he got out and why he started doing the
same thing for the guys because you know he just
cares about the guys so much and he knew and
knows what's right and um yeah absolutely all
right well let me kind of walk you through your
career then so we can get to the other side and
start talking about that One thing I think is
fascinating with anyone that comes on the show
is the level of attrition that you have in SEAL
selection, I think, is a model for police, is
a model for fire. Now, obviously, we need more
bodies probably than you guys result in, but
I think setting that bar high is something that
we need to see in our profession as well. So
when so many people that you got hired with that
went through BUDS, ended up ringing the bell,
physically and mentally, what was it that carried
you through and allowed you to make it through
all the way to the end? I was too dumb to quit.
No, I went there with a purpose. I was going
to be a SEAL. That was it. Whatever they wanted
to throw at me, it didn't matter. they could
have, they could have beat us every day for six
months. And I just would have stayed there and
just figured, Oh, this is, this is just a school
I have to get through to, to, to get to the final,
you know, final place where you received that
Trident and get your platoon. So for me, it was
never about like, you know, pass fail or can
I do this? Or it was just, okay, what's the evolution.
All right, great. Like we got to. We got to do
that today. And some, of course, you're better
than others. So for me, it was, it was, I don't
want to say it was weird. It was just the mindset
I had going in was that this is just another
school or thing I have to do to get to where
I'm going. And so whatever they throw at me,
I'm, I'm, I'm fine. It's going to be hard, but
I'll never complain about, you know, why they're
doing it or whatever. But, you know, people,
you know, individuals that go to buds, they,
they quit for, you know, a host of reasons. You
mentioned two of them. Well, I mean, it is, it's
physical and mental really. And the physical
piece aside from, you know, the pushups and sit
-ups and pull -ups and running and all that fun
stuff. Um, the cold water is what gets most people.
I think that's what separates. They asked what
separates, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the
services and a lot of the special forces and
different units. And I think, I think it's the
water. Um, And I think it's the cold water because
nothing is more demoralizing. And when you're
cold and you have to get out and you stand there
and you just feel, you feel like a piece of shit
and you're, you're shaking. And, and they say,
you got to go back in, you know, it's usually
when they say you got to go back in. It's not
like when you're in, you know, people do quit,
people quit. The majority individuals that quit
buds are it turns back into psychological. So
it's like the morning you wake up in the morning,
first off, People ask me what's the hardest part
of buds. I tell them waking up in the morning
because you wake up and you literally can't fucking
move. And, you know, in 30 minutes, you're literally
going to be on the grinder, getting your ass
beat again and sprinting, you know, 400 yards
in and out of the ocean, getting Sandy coming
back and doing it in two minutes. And that just
the thought of that when you can't move and you're
kind of warm under your covers and it's. California,
when the sun's not out a coastal desert environment.
So it could be, I don't know, 48, even, you know,
even mid fifties is cold when you, you know,
the water is going to be somewhere in the low
sixties, mid sixties, or if you're really unlucky
here in the mid fifties, but anyway. Um, yeah,
I mean, I, I, I just, um, I never, never really
thought about quitting. I had like a moment of
weakness. I think Wednesday night, a hell week,
I remember like breaking down and just going
like, what am I doing? Like, it was one of those
things where my mind was just started wandering.
I probably was hallucinating. Um, but yeah, for
me, quitting was never an option. How much did
GI Joe prepare you for that process? I mean,
excuse me, GI Jane or GI Joe either. Um, I mean,
like, Probably zero. Right. It was a great movie.
I mean, nothing, there's nothing there that is,
is even, I mean, I guess there's similar, there's
like, there's some similarities, but there's,
you know, still at the end of the day, I don't
care. It's like, it's like stuff that's in theory
and then in, in, in practical work. Right. So
I don't care how many books you read, like you
still can't go out on a range and shoot a, a,
a long gun. just by, you know, being an expert
at reading every manual that there is on this
specific, you know, weapon system. And so like,
you actually have to do, you have to do the work.
And so whatever you watch, that's why it still
hasn't gotten easier because there's so much
information out there. They could watch whatever
they want. They could hear all these podcasts
about all the cool guys. Some of them that have
done really cool things and they could hear about
every hour and every minute of buds. Um, but
like, how is that going to help a person when,
you know, there's a war, uh, war fighter that
just spent the last 20 years on his like 25th
combat deployment, kicking sand in your face.
Like, I don't care what you watch or what you
read or what you think, you know, um, you're,
you're going to get your ass beat and depends
on what's going on up here is going to keep you
going. Yeah, backdraft didn't prepare me too
well for Fire Academy either. I thought I could
be a firefighter after a backdraft. I carry this,
I wear this gear. If something falls, I move
out of the way. The door thing, right? Like,
oh shit, there's more than enough. I open it,
backdraft. So I'm not supposed to do that. I'm
sure that's exactly how they teach you to do
that. It is, and then you just have to suspect
the chief is an arsonist and then you're pretty
much going to get through it. All right, well
then, I know you have an interesting... kind
of career as well because you entered pre -9
11 9 11 happened like right when you were going
through all this so you know talk to me about
that journey and when you found yourself finally
overseas yeah so it was pre -9 11 it's uh there
was no war and so when i when i when i got into
the teams it was well actually i wasn't in teams
i was in buds um we just thought we were you
know we were running on the beach we're getting
strong and we're gonna go to our platoon we're
gonna do all this quote unquote cool shit and
jump out of planes and then a couple idiots decided
to fly two aircraft into the World Trade Center
and a couple others decided to fly into the Pentagon
and one downed into a field in Virginia. Anyway,
we got to watch about a minute of that. I was
in third phase. We were actually doing PT. We
were doing push -ups and pull -ups and sit -ups
and instructors came out and said, hey somebody
just flew a plane into the world trade center
and i remember us all started bitching and complaining
that we were in third phase about to graduate
from six months of buds and why are they still
messing with us like we thought this was one
of those psychological um you know shit storms
that they were trying to it's part of buds it's
called buds so they actually followed us into
the um the uh living quarters where they where
they stayed of course we slept outside um literally
um and you would get followed into this big screen
tv and yeah the towers are you know they're they're
on fire and coming down and we were like holy
shit like what what's happening so we didn't
really understand it at the time as students
like we were still just like gung -ho and just
you know This is cool. But the instructors, their
whole demeanor changed. Like they knew, like
they'd been in the teams for 10 years, 15, 20,
depending on what leadership level they were
at. And it was for them, they knew like, we're
about to go to war. And I just, I remember it.
Like, I couldn't believe the, the whole shift,
that paradigm shift, you want to call it from,
being a certain way to like this really like
hardened and everything they talked about after
that was about, you know, if you did something
wrong, well, how are you going to perform in
combat? You know what I mean? It started going
back to like, everything was now combat focused
versus this one time, you know, when I was at
buds or this one time on this training trip.
Or this one time when we did this, everything
started focused to like, you screw something
up, how are you going to perform in combat? That's
what the whole shift in demeanor went to. And
it was real. It got very real after that. So
a question that I like to ask anyone who's actually
been deployed, who's seen combat, and the reason
behind this is, We get a very polarized view.
And I say we, civilians. Obviously, I'm a fireman.
I'm not a member of the military. A very polarizing
view of war. Either the one extreme is they're
all a bunch of baby killers. And then the other
side is kill them all, let God sort them out.
CNN versus Fox, basically. And then in the middle
ground are the men and women. barely, you know,
children that we send over in uniforms to, you
know, go fight for our country with an American
flag or British flag or Australian flag on their
shoulder. So those are the stories that I want
to bring, almost like Sebastian Junger's town
hall that he talks about. So when you were over
there, regardless of the politics, obviously
you had a very real reaction because, you know,
you witnessed the towers falling as you were
going through training. But were there any kind
of things that you witnessed overseas, whether
Iraq or Afghanistan? where you realize, okay,
regardless of what sent me here, now I'm seeing
with my own eyes some horrible people that we
need to take care of? So we, I mean, my mission
on every deployment was going after high value
targets for the most part. And so, you know,
we, mostly saw kind of the worst of the worst
over there and and yeah i mean of course there's
um there's terrible things that happen in war
like horrible things and we've all seen them
um we all hear about them and that stuff definitely
does happen um but uh i mean what we were doing
is exactly what we wanted to do like we like
i went to buds and went through you know um my
my platoons and then selection after that to
go chase down, you know, bad guys that were taking
out, you know, our soldiers, you know, during
the daytime hours on the street and, you know,
taking off arms and legs and and everything else.
And so, you know, we we felt we we were doing
a righteous thing. We were fighting terrorists
and we were fighting really bad people that in.
in wouldn't even think twice about killing you
or your family or, you know, your, your, your,
your wife and kids. And we're talking about civilian
people that they wouldn't even think even blink
an eye to where, you know, that's the opposite
of, of the American way of the U S you know,
individual, the U S soldier, you know, we're,
we're doing everything in our power to protect
civilians and, and take out, you know, the enemy,
unfortunately. you know, things happen, but you
know, these are, these are, these are not good
people. And, um, you know, we enjoyed every minute
of taking, um, you know, taking the fight to,
to the enemy, if you want to call it that, um,
without a doubt and more that happened than,
than any of the bad stuff you hear about a hundred
percent, you know, there are bits and pieces
of, of, of things that have happened that, you
know, may not sit well or. you know, stories
you hear about, but you don't hear about like
the thousand other stories that are good, similar
to, you know, what we're hearing now about, you
know, law enforcement, you know, law enforcement
is getting their ass kicked by the public. But
every, you know, there's always bad apple here
and there. And, you know, they don't like to
talk about all the good things that law enforcement
does for us. And so, yeah, I, you know, I don't
know. what you're looking for here, but I enjoyed
every minute of going overseas and fighting alongside
some of the best individuals that I had the privilege
to work with. Yeah, no, that's exactly what I'm
looking for. Just your perspective. Now, the
other side of the coin is kindness and compassion.
So again, we get this vision of war being a terrible
place. We get it painted again with the left
and the right that we are at war with Iraq, with
Afghanistan. And the reality is, no, there are
some extremists in those countries that are terrorizing
and murdering their own people. And that's who
our military are hunting down. And amidst that
seems to be all these amazing stories of kindness
and compassion that are members of the military
witness, either within their own, you know, men
and women or with the people that they're embedded
with. So were there any moments of kindness and
compassion that kind of resonate that really
stuck with you in the time that you were overseas?
I mean, here, I mean, I hope what I'm about to
say gets out like to everyone who thinks that.
uh, we're a bunch of, you know, whatever you
want to call them, warmongers or baby killers.
I mean, when, when I used to go out, uh, at night
on an operation, not just me, like my whole unit,
um, we literally took time to put chem lights
in our pockets, like the crack, the ones that
you crack and you can see at night, like red
and blue and green. Um, I took extra water. I
took candy. Um, We took, I mean, anything that
you can think of that wasn't like, obviously
like weighing you down, but all these like little
things that when we did get on a target and there
were a bunch of women and children, I could crack
chem lights and give them to the kids to play
with. You know, I could hand out candy to them.
I'd hand out water during the day because it
was so hot over there. And of course we got as
much as we needed. And who knows, I mean, when
you see what these people live in, it's, it's
heartbreaking. We have it so good over here.
Um, my daughter was just telling me today, we
walked up to get a cup of coffee right before
this, um, iced coffee, by the way, almond milk.
Um, you know, it's just how, how good we have
it here in the U S when you see, you know, some
of these other places and like, we didn't have
to do that. And it wasn't just one person. It
wasn't just me. It was like everybody, everybody
was taking chem lights out on target. Everybody
was taking candy, you know? I was handing out
water when I was in a turret because I was up
there and it was just easy to like hand to people.
We did that all the time. I don't think I've
ever heard that once mentioned on a news story
or written anywhere. But, you know, here we are
about to go after like a high value target. And
we're at the same time worried about making sure
we have enough chem lights for the kids. or there's
some extra water if we need to hand it out. Um,
yeah. And, and, you know, you're, you're never
going to hear that. I mean, if you, um, there's
a friend of mine that I went through a selection
with, um, he, he was killed in combat, uh, Adam
Brown. It was a book, uh, written called fearless,
amazing book, uh, amazing individual. He was
actually my roommate, uh, BR Brown and Capone
CA. And so there you go. I got the book. There
you go. Amazing. Yeah. And I mean, you know the
story then, right? When he went over to Afghanistan,
I know it was the first time. I'm going to chop
this up. So everyone listening, I apologize,
but I'm going to get most of it right. He noticed
that there were just tons of kids over there
without shoes. And he figured out a way to have,
I don't know how many hundreds of shoes sent
over. So I probably butchered the number. But
that's basically what happened. He saw children
in Afghanistan who didn't have shoes in villages.
Again, in villages that may have been, I don't
know if you want to call them good, bad. Maybe
they're harboring an individual. Maybe a terrorist
was there. I don't know. But he took it upon
himself to somehow reach back to the states and
have a bunch of shoes sent over for these individuals.
And shit like that happens all the time. I wish
we could hear about it more because really. And
everybody I know that has gone over there is
trying to seek out the enemy and trying to limit
damage to civilian population on the highest
level. Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that.
And that's exactly that. That's the human experience.
You wore a uniform, I wore a uniform, but we're
both... We were kids, we were in kindergarten
once, and then you became a SEAL and I became
a firefighter, and then we transitioned out.
And I think that's the problem with some of our
men and women when they do transition is the
struggle with identity, especially when they
come back home. You then, you know, have someone
who has that baby killer thing or the opposite,
like, oh, yeah, you know, stacking bodies over
there and patting you on the shoulder. And it's
like, no, these are these are human being that
at times, you know, had to get in a flow state
and do what you were paid to do. And other times
showed, you know, moments of incredible kindness
and compassion. And that's the vision. That's
the storytelling from our military that we do
need to hear. Yeah. And I'm telling you right
now, that's 90 something percent of the individuals.
Right. Like I said, there's always. bad apples
but no i mean the majority of individuals i work
with were literally um they're they're best guy
best people you could ever imagine that you ever
want to work with um both intellectually physically
um all of it so you're already in this you know
very small percentage of members of the navy
But then there's obviously another very infamous
tier one group within the SEAL community. What
made you decide to test for them? And then, you
know, what position did you end up holding in
that organization? Yeah, so, I mean, you know,
the funny thing is, I guess now at 10 years,
maybe, we didn't really talk much about SEAL
Team 6, but it is now a... a public, uh, public
knowledge. Um, and you, you know, most, uh, most
individuals that are in special operations, uh,
at least I didn't know that there was a, uh,
I didn't even know what a tier one unit was.
Um, but, uh, when I found out about the tier
one unit, I just immediately said, okay, I want
to do that. I didn't know. I don't know that
this, these guys do, um, they do, you know, other
things that are, that are, you know, different,
more focused on certain areas of, of, of, of
operating. And, um, you know, it's a, it's a
whole nother selection. And so you go through
just as much, uh, I don't want to say it's not
like, it's not like buds where buds are trying
to test your, your, your physical and mental
fortitude. You know, this is more on, on skill,
skill set and how well you react to certain situations
and how quick you can think. Um, definitely,
you definitely, um, I would say use your brain
for, for, for all special operations, but, you
know, they, they were testing you more on how,
how well you can react to high stress situations
and make decisions, make good decisions immediately,
uh, bad decisions, like a decision. I know there's
an old, you know, a decision is better than none.
Uh, I may, I may argue that one. But they want
to see you make good decisions in high -stress
situations. So that's another six -month selection
process that you're running a gun in, shooting,
jumping. You get graded on everything that you
do. And at the end of six months, you're standing
with about 40 individuals that have proven their
worth, and you move on to different. things all
right we won't explore that too deeply but uh
you know obviously again i just want to paint
the picture that you were at that level i know
you were breaching you know you're a breacher
within the organization as well as you progress
through your career before we get to the transition
out had you and or amber already seen signs of
behavioral change whether it's you know initially
thought as pts or something else yeah um that's
a good question so each um, each deployment,
I came back at each combat deployment early after
nine 11, I came back. Um, you know, it was just,
it was just different, you know, and, and for
me, it was just normal because I was just morphing
right into whatever I ended up. But, you know,
for Amber and the kids, they obviously can see
that change pretty radically, especially when
you're gone for months at a time, you come back
a new individual. And so uh every time one of
our guys come home or girls you know you change
and for some they they're doing that for over
20 years some at 30 some at 40 um but you know
20 years of sustained combat that's a lot you
know our nation's never experienced that and
i think there's you know i think there's a breaking
point and there's still there's still people
out there that will tell you that there's nothing
wrong with them. And I think everyone's been
affected in one way or the other. I envy the
individuals, and I've said this before, you know,
I envy the individuals that can keep going. You
know, we're all, you know, we're all tuned differently.
Some can do 30 and I hope they're fine, they're
okay. There's others that, you know, they see
one friend. get killed in action and they're,
they're suffering for life, you know? And so
we're all different. I don't, you know, I don't
want to judge. I think everybody's story should
be heard. I think we should learn from them,
but, you know, after 20 years of sustained combat,
there's, there's a, there's a lot of work to
be done post military career. And, you know,
I'm still working on it. And, you know, that
changed, like I said, if you started it. You
started at 9 -11 and you're getting out now.
It's, you know, it's 21 years of change. So you're
definitely a different human being from September
11, 01. Well, I mean, it's impossible not to
change. I mean, if I think of, you know, my career,
it was only 14 years as a firefighter, but, you
know, saw and did a lot of things that even...
though when i look back i was just so fortunate
so lucky it's no no other way to put it lucky
to have the upbringing that i had i had some
childhood trauma but even that the way my childhood
was there was almost like an ingrained ability
to process that when i was young so it's there
but it's not something that's debilitating um
but there's no way in hell james gearing can
be the same at 27 when i entered the fire service
as i am now because Of all the things I've seen,
all the things I've had to do, getting up, you
know, I mean, all these tragedy, all these heartbroken
families that we're exposed to, all the inability
to save a life. I mean, these all weigh up. So
you're going to be different. But there's a difference
between that through line of you just, you know,
being 20 years older, wiser and, you know, more
skeptical. But there's another thing with, you
know, the side effects of other things, PTS and
trauma. But I think when you talk about some
people that are able to progress more from all
these conversations, it seems like, again, a
common denominator is what did their life look
like before they put the uniform on? Because
if you had a lot of shit that was never, ever
addressed and then you became a cop, a firefighter,
a SEAL, you're. your foundation is a lot more
vulnerable than someone like myself who was just
fucking lucky to not be beaten by this their
father when they were four i mean i got smacked
but with a belt and stuff and never maliciously
and never you know with with a with a close fist
um and so i think that's a big part too i think
you know some people are because probably when
you look at their earlier life it kind of set
them up for success and i think a lot of people
that i see that end up with a gun in their hand,
you know, or in their mouth. When you reverse
engineer, there's a lot of things that happen
before they ever put a uniform on. I agree. I
mean, you're spot on with that. We never ever
call out anyone, but, you know, we're learning
that a lot of childhood trauma is what is the
makeup of a lot of our special operations units
for whatever reason. And so now, We have that
childhood trauma and maybe you have some brain
trauma from contact sports or whatever. And then
you go in the military and you shoot a ton of
guns and you're on a lot of explosives and then
you go to war and you see a bunch of shit that
most people don't have like you've seen. And
you then transition out of the military and it's
like a tornado. It's like a recipe. It's a recipe
that one day it's going to stop. You go, okay,
you're done. You start thinking back about all
these different things that have happened and
it upsets you and you go, man, I need a drink
because that's just like, I just thought about
John Doe or I just thought about this incident.
That drink puts you in a state of even worse
depression and you start thinking about it more.
You're seeing the spiral now. And then it just
spirals out of control because you're, you know,
you're numbing from, you know, an incident that
has happened. But like you said, maybe, you know,
all that stuff you took on as a child and then
it just gradually progressed. So recipe for,
you know, for, for big, big explosion at some
point. So transition is definitely, again, where
a lot of people struggle. Like I said, whether
it's the identity, the lack of purpose that we
had when we were in the uniform, the lack of
tribe. You leave that group of men that you were
serving with for so long. So talk to me about
when you got to the point where you did transition
out, and then what was that transition like for
you? I mean, I was, I mean, I was super excited
to, to, to transition. Like when I finally realized
like, I'm, I'm going to, I'm doing something,
um, different than before. Um, you know, I had,
it was like, okay, I'm starting a new journey
here, I guess that'll be okay. And, um, yeah,
it was just, it was, it was, it was such a struggle.
It was, uh, I didn't have the tribe. You mentioned
Sebastian. Sebastian Junger. Yeah. You didn't
have the tribe. You didn't have your community.
You didn't have people to lean on. Life was different.
And at that point, you slow down a little bit.
My time in the teams were very physical too.
So I was always running, jumping, fighting. you
know, very, very physical and, you know, you
jump into the private sector. If you, you know,
you put on a shirt and tie, you're, you're, you
know, it's a very cerebral, more cerebral life.
And so, you know, you do have time to think about
a lot of these different things. And a lot of
these things begin to frustrate you and you don't
have the outs that you had when you were in the
military. And so, you know, again, these all
add up to causing you more stress than probably
maybe you even have and you don't know how to
deal with that stress and you know it was it's
so weird i look back at my time in the military
like i never remember being like anxious depressed
um you know upset but you know upset of course
around individuals that we lost um but the bounce
back with that was like immediate you know it
was like celebrate their life move on boom go
you know, mission driven, like we have, we have
work to do. This is, this is what's supposed
to be, you know, like we expect to lose individuals
in, in times of combat. And so, um, you know,
or see something bad. Um, but, but once that
stops and you do have time to reflect, um, at
least what we're seeing, and I'm sure you've
seen that's, that's when it starts to creep up
on you. Um, And then again, we could always go
back to individuals that have serious head trauma
or even mild head trauma. The subconcussive blows
are really affecting the day -to -day living
for a lot of individuals. And not everybody's
the same. So one big boom could affect somebody.
A thousand little booms may affect somebody.
And then you have everybody in between. And some
affect more than others. So we can't judge. We
can't say that. Well, that guy had, you know,
four grenades go off and he was in eight IDs
and he's okay. Um, because this other guy, you
know, hit his head on something, but like, we
can't judge that. I don't know. I don't know
how your, your, I don't know your, your brain
makeup is. I don't know how hard your, your skull
is. Like, I don't know. That's not, that's not
for me to judge. And so everybody's, everybody
deals with it in their own way. And we just got
to take care of everyone individually. In the
fire service, I've been to wrecks where we've
pulled on scene. There's one, someone just abandoned
their car on a freeway in the middle of the night.
And in California, actually, it was when I was
with Anaheim. And this poor couple barreled into
this parked car in the dark at probably 70, 80
miles an hour. We pull on scene and we're like,
shit, I mean, these people have got to be dead.
And we pull up and these two people walk from.
you know from the side of the road and they're
like not only were they fine they didn't even
want to go anywhere to be checked out they're
like no we're totally fine we're like jesus christ
and then i can think of a four -way stop sign
where someone was drunk and blew through and
hit this woman didn't seem to be that bad damaged
in the car and she was dead inside so another
example of yeah i mean you never know if if a
trauma is gonna you know, give you a bruise or
cause an aortic aneurysm and you bleed out in
10 seconds. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's
the thing with trauma. We're all different. And
obviously with the mental health side, we're
all different. Some of us getting a dog works
amazingly. Some people need Ibogaine. Yes, some
do need Ibogaine. So let's get to that then.
So you transition out. I can see how jarring
working in finance would be because I talk about
this quite a bit. There's a sense of kindness
and compassion that draws us into military police
fire. We want to help. We want to protect. And
I think with that childhood trauma element, you
want to be a protector. You were victimized as
a child. You want the buck to stop here. You
want to be the person that protects other people
from predators. Then you transition out and that
purpose isn't there as a real estate agent, as
a financier. And so, you know, I think that's
when all that stuff comes back. You haven't got
adrenaline anymore either. You haven't got that,
you know, excitement that the job brought to
you. So when did you and or Amber realize, you
know, you were really spiraling downwards? You
know, where was that bottom for you? And then
walk me through your journey into psychedelics.
It started in, I'd say, 2010 when I left really
operational duty and we moved to the West Coast,
became an instructor. And what I thought life
was going to be good, it just started really
declining at that moment. I think part of it
was because I wasn't operational. I was away
from my guys I had worked with for a number of
years and probably the busiest time of the war
from, let's say, 06 to... you know, 2010 or 06,
2010. And so, you know, it really, it really
started there. I was put on my first antidepressant
in 2010 while on active duty. And when I was
medically retired in 2013, it just, you know,
that effect kind of just kept trickling and,
you know, I kept fighting it. I just kept. you
know, thinking I, this is, there's nothing here.
I could work through this, but, you know, from
outsiders looking in now, and I talked to individuals,
of course, that I know, and including, you know,
Amber and the kids, yeah, it was horrible for
them. You know, it was like, and I would say
I was separated. 2013, I was out and, you know,
slowly got worse with just heavier drinking,
more numbing. you know, coping with, uh, life
that I just didn't think was really meaningful
at the time. Um, Amber had started looking into
some brain clinics. Um, there was some, there
was some money available and we spent a lot of
money out of pocket, uh, just trying to figure
out like if there's anything wrong with my head.
Um, and we did, and we found some, some, there
was some, um, there's some scarring. I was able
to go luckily enough to Amen Clinic, which was,
they do spec scans and showed some areas of the
brain where I didn't have a blood flow that were,
you know, supposed to, supposed to be working.
And there were also some markers for, you know,
PTSD and depression. And I guess I'm going to
say bipolar two, which I don't like to say because
it's a miss, it's a very missed diagnosed. thing.
So there's, there's a therapist that still argues
that. So I'm going to side with her because she
knew me really well. And so, you know, just had
all these things that were showing up and happening
and I was getting angrier and I was getting really
frustrated at the system. I was just like trusting
the system, the Western medicine approach of
like, here's, you know, you have medical insurance.
And so here's the drugs that you need because
you have PTSD. Um, that's the, that's what the
military told me. Um, major depressive disorder,
MDD, um, alcohol abuse disorder, um, in a host
of other things. And so you get these cocktails
of, of, uh, antidepressants, SSRIs and some anti,
anti -anxiety, uh, medication, uh, some medicines
that, help you avoid nightmares. And then, you
know, medicines that help you think clearer or
focus more. So things like Adderall and there's
these two others that I was put on, I forgot
the name of them, but they used to give me really
bad headaches. Anyway. And then also of course,
Ambien to sleep and then tried a few others because,
you know, I was concerned about Ambien. I said,
Hey, I use Ambien for many years while on active
duty. And I know it's, I mean, it's not good
for you. Dr. Kirk Parsley will tell you all about
that. And this is just not the way to live, James.
And I was at a point where I was, I thought Amber
and the kids would be better off, excuse me,
better off without me here because I felt like
I was this burden. of, you know, everything was
for dad, you know, all everything we had to do
was around what I needed. Um, you know, I'm not
in a good mood. Everyone had to walk on eggshells
and I was, you know, snapping at everything.
I was angry. It was throwing things through our,
our, our windows at the house. Um, and then completely
reckless came to a point where I couldn't care
less if you were law enforcement or it just didn't
matter like i just didn't care you know i was
like what matters like what i used to do in the
past mattered you know i had purpose there um
i was with a group of people who had purpose
and we were all fighting for the same thing and
now it's like what is this private sector life
it um it's just it's bullshit you know everyone's
selling some widget or some service that may
be good, maybe not. Most of the times it was
honestly bullshit. Individuals were bullshit.
And so that was tough to, that was also, you
know, part of the, part of the issue. And to
a little of my knowledge, Amber and Kirk Parsley
were working in the background for about a year
to get me to go do this. What I thought at the
time was, Pretty insane, crazy sounding. I don't
call it experimental because I don't think you
could experiment on stuff for thousands of years.
It was highly proven. We just didn't do enough
double -blind placebo clinical trials at academic
institutions. We reviewed and we had to make
sure that they were done correctly and spend
probably about a billion dollars. Once you get
to like phase three or at least a hundred million,
150 million and up with your faith phase three
trials. And so if it didn't do that, then these
don't, these don't matter. And I just committed.
It was, there was a point, it was finally at
a point where I couldn't take it anymore. Amber
and the kids couldn't take it anymore. You know,
we weren't going to stay together. Like we were,
you know, we were ready to part ways. Like we
had to, it was not, you know, at that point it
was, Amber had to do more for the kids. Like
she had to take care of the kids. Like she, they
were, they were all living with an individual
that really wasn't a husband, a dad, you know,
it was just a pain in the ass. And, you know,
I said, you know what, I've done enough research
on this now. And I understand that these medicines
were initially intended for, you know, psycho
-spiritual growth. for a host of, of, of, uh,
you know, things, uh, wrong with the body, uh,
both mind and body and, and spiritual too. Right.
So these medicines have been used for thousands
of years, um, for spiritual connection. And I,
you know, I kind of took a leap of faith. Um,
I always joke that I'm a Guinea pig. I'll do
anything. If you tell me it's going to make me
bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, better. Um,
yeah, sign me up. I'll try, as a friend of mine
says, I'll try anything twice. It's his line
though, not mine. And I went out of the country
to do a psychedelic medicine called Ibogaine,
which is synthesized from, I don't know if that's
the right term, but it's an alkaloid of the Iboga
plant. Um, I believe Boga gets to about 10 feet
and they have some, you know, they have big,
big, you know, bush leaves and these fruits that
grow off the leaves, but at the base of it is,
uh, the root. And they take the outside of the
root bark off and then they shave down, uh, the,
the, the root itself and, or like the, the wood
part of it. And that's called Iboga. And I believe
there's 13 alkalis. The most prevalent in there
is Ibogaine. And Ibogaine is what is really,
I believe, exploding right now in popularity
because of its, one, its anti -addictive properties.
Nothing comes close to anything for an opioid
heroin addict. It completely scrubs receptors
and the efficacy rates are through the roof.
You know, pharma doesn't want to hear that somebody
has to take something once or twice without any
withdrawal symptoms. So, I mean, Iboga and Ibogaine
are just like a unbelievably healing and curing.
I'll say curing. I don't know. I suppose you're
not supposed to use that term. Medicine. And
that's just for addiction. For trauma, you know.
We've been doing this now for five years. I haven't
heard anything that, you know, there are psychedelic
medicines that are really powerful and really
working. Things like ayahuasca and psilocybin,
you know, DMT and others that are fantastic.
And of course, MDMA, which will be federally
legalized first for PTSD. These drugs are great
and they're working really well. But if you want
the nuclear option, you go to Ibogaine. or iboga
it's not a fun journey um it's going to kick
your ass and but you're going to come out the
other side whole again and reset and with a new
kind of from any life purpose and mission um
and so uh that's what happened to me i mean i
i committed to the medicine um it's about a 12
hour really tough uh experience where you it's
it's almost like it's like a it's like a movie
of your life right in front of your eyes and
the medicine knows how to work um you even though
you go in there with certain intentions um if
you're hiding some of those intentions or you're
you're you have you have other things that are
causing blockages in your life ibogaine is going
to go find those and you're going to face those
demons throughout in during your journey. And
as you can imagine, opening up those floodgates
can be really difficult and traumatic for people.
But as we all know, the only way to fight fear
is through and you, you have to face those fears
in order to grow. And so, you know, if you had
some of those childhood traumas that are affecting
you later in your life, you got to go back and
face those childhood traumas again. You know,
that's what therapists pull out of you. That's
what you're supposed to get to when you're doing
talk therapy or, you know, some of the other
treatments that you do with therapists, but it
could take years. Psychedelics done correctly
can potentially take, you know, days, weeks,
months, but they happen pretty quickly. It's
like a time machine to get better. Well, it's
amazing to hear, and I've had so many people
on the show that I think have gone through you.
So we've got Jeff Nichols, Dan Cirillo, Nick
Norris, Johnny Walker. I mean, the list goes
on and on and on. So people can hear these testimonies
of these elite operators that initially thought
they were bulletproof and superheroes and then
reconnected with their humanity. struggled you
know it's used alcohol used opiates and then
found ibogaine and you know it's just absolutely
amazing to hear it now i want to circle around
to something you said quickly because this is
again a kind of revolution a revolution a revelation
i had earlier on when people talk about suicide
there's always this conversation of cowardice
how could they you know how could they leave
their family behind you know what what a coward
you talked about being a burden that's the huge
kind of perspective that lends into into the
broken mind is just that so many of these men
and women get to the point where they feel like
they're a burden so the selfless thing even though
it makes no sense to a healthy mind to their
mind at that moment in time the selfless thing
is to remove yourself from your family because
you feel like such a burden you feel like you're
ruining their life so was that what you were
feeling at that moment i mean a hundred percent
I mean, I wasn't thinking about me. I mean, I
was thinking about me that I had nothing to really
live for, but I was really thinking about Amber
and the kids just going, well, if I remove myself
from this situation, then they don't have to
deal with me anymore, which is causing them to
be stuck in their mind, body, and life. And so
if I remove myself, then they can flourish. Amber
can find somebody that... you know, she would
be, you know, a better husband to her, you know,
and then the kids could, could not have this,
this, this father that was just judgmental and
just not, you know, not that I was ever like
bad to the kids, but I was still like not present.
You know, I still didn't have a relationship.
And I thought, well, if I'm not here, then, then
all these great things can happen for them. And.
yeah, maybe I'll be missed, maybe not, but they'll
go on and live this like fruitful life. And that's
kind of the way I was rationalizing it. And,
you know, God forbid, I run into somebody that
ever says somebody who takes their life is cowardice.
And I remember individuals that I worked with.
I remember you, you would hear that. And, and
I would agree with that just because like, uh
what do you call it when when it's a group think
is that what it is group think when yeah yeah
when yeah yeah yeah yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah
but it really you're not really you're not even
understanding or really thinking about what they're
saying you're just in this group and everyone's
kind of agreeing um but no uh it's the it's it's
the opposite i mean you know these individuals
who take their lives are some of the toughest
you know, some of the toughest people on the
planet, there's real shit going on. You're not
thinking clearly. It's not rational thinking,
or maybe if it is rational thinking, it's, they're
doing it to what they think in their mind may
make it easier for others. Right. If they're
not, if they're not here, it is not cowardice.
It's, it just, it just is. And unfortunately,
they feel that the system may have shorted them.
They may not feel like they're getting the help
they need, or they are in so much pain, either
physically and or mentally, that they just can't
take it anymore. And I don't know how that is
carotid. Because I know some really good people
that took their lives and I would never, I would
consider them the most like hardened warriors
that I've ever worked with. So it saddens me
when, and most of those individuals who say it
are just, they don't get it or they're just not
experiencing it. And I understand the part that
they're not experiencing it. I know plenty of
guys who say, I don't understand this PTSD thing.
I don't have any. Well, my next question, and
I usually just, I don't say anything, but. You
know, it's, you know, how much did you actually
do? You know, how many times have you stuck your
face in front of a, in front of a door? How many
times you've been on the receiving end of gunfire?
How many friends did you bury? You know, I could
go on and on and on. And, you know, again, I,
I envy those folks. You're, you're a lot tougher
than I am. Well, I would ask him how much you
drink at night. Yeah, I mean, that's probably
a real look in the mirror. If you say you're
good, but then you have to dive into the bottle
every evening, you're probably not good. Yeah,
you're probably not. And I am finding out that
there are more and more individuals that do need
help and just haven't asked for it yet or just
haven't come to the grips that there's something
wrong there. And you know what? okay to raise
your hand and say hey man i need to time out
or i just need it i need a tune -up because it's
okay when your shoulder's blown out to go see
every specialist in the world to get you back
you know um firefighting on the front lines going
after terrorists you know you'll you'll go see
the best doctors they'll cut you open they'll
tie you up you'll do rehab forever And everyone
would just say, oh, yeah, you know, he's just
getting his shoulder worked on. He's going to
be back. He's going to be fine. But you raise
your hand and say, you know what? There's something
going on between my ears. Like there's just something
not right. Like I'm getting headaches or I'm
forgetting stuff or I'm really angry, you know,
or I'm depressed. You know, now you're a cuckoo.
You're damaged. And all you want to do maybe
is go get a tune up. Go get your head worked
on. Maybe go get some. Go get some. some imaging
done, you know, maybe talk to some folks. Maybe,
you know, you just, you just need, you know,
you just need to go to someone who, who understands
your, your, your brain and help you, you know,
help you fix it. And then maybe you can get back
to where you need to go. Maybe it's back in the
fight. Maybe it's doing something totally different.
Maybe it's just trying to be a normal, you know,
human being, a dad, husband, wife, or whatever.
So, you know, that's what I'm trying to do. I
think that's what we're trying to do is break
this stigma of, of just asking for some, just
for some, some help, a little bit of empathy,
you know, maybe if you're not, you're not here
yet, but understand that you're still the same
person. You're just going through some stuff
and you'd like to work on it. I don't think that's
bad. Absolutely not. Well, I think that's why
the messaging needs to be You hear people say,
oh, think about your family. We'll say that to
someone who thinks that they're a burden to their
family. You just kind of put the final nail in
the coffin. So I think we need to get people
to realize if you feel like a burden, if you're
having that self -talk that the world would be
better off without you. then that's the red flag.
If your family see that from the outside, that's
the red flag that we need to go because there
was no more heartbreaking story than we had in
Florida about two months ago where we had a male
police officer take his own life. And then I
think it was a week later, his girlfriend took
her own life and they had a brand new baby with
no parents. And people are like, well, how could
they do that? Exactly, because you're thinking
with a normal, healthy brain and trying to get
inside the head of someone who was in crisis.
And it just doesn't, you can't think that way.
So the moment that that makes sense, that removing
yourself from this world will make it better
when actually the reality is the complete opposite.
The moment you have those thoughts, that's exactly
where you need to put your hand. If not before,
put your hand up and say, I need help. This is
in a really bad place now. And I know plenty
of people that have done it. You know, I know
plenty of people that have, that have, you know,
checked themselves into facilities or at least
called a friend or just something to say, Hey,
I'm just, I'm not right. Or given their guns
away, you know, just all of all the above. And,
you know, most of those individuals are doing
really, really well now. Right. So they, they
needed, you talked to all of them on, on your
show, all the, all the individuals you mentioned.
You know, I won't say anything they didn't, but
I'm sure they said the same thing. They were
at their lows and, you know, they, they searched
for answers and they found them. And now they're
freaking, all those guys are killing it. Like
they're all doing so well. It's like, it's incredible.
It's really incredible how, how well they're
doing. And I'm just, I'm super pumped to know
that this is just another thing that we need
to take care of. A really good, I joke, you know,
I've said this a million times, we're really
good at taking protein and creatine and, you
know, NO2 and all this, these other things that
you put in your body to like work out and run
faster and lift more weights. But we forget to
do the stuff for our brains that really operate
everything. You know, it is the, it is the platform
that operates everything else. And so, you know,
we do need to take time to do nothing, you know,
meditate. take supplements that help just feed
it what it needs in order to work better or maintain.
Absolutely. Well, so the... Project I'm Doing
With Ryan, the human performance project in the
7X, that was inspired tragically by the loss
of Ryan's sniper partner, David Metcalf. I'm
going to get Jamie on the show to tell his story
too. Another person who's been on the show is
Sarah Wilkinson, who lost Chad. Obviously, another
resounding element, as we touched on earlier,
was TBI. So I think Jeff Nichols is someone who
talks about that as well. You went through all
this, as you said, it was identified as PTSD.
Talk to me about the TBI, excuse me, the TBI
element, how you're finding, you know, Ibogaine
and some other psychedelics as treatment and
how that's being misdiagnosed sometimes as purely
PTSD. Yeah. So, you know, just the, you know,
the people you just mentioned, you know, Dave
and Metcalf, we were, you know, we went to Bud's
together. We were in the class 236. And I think.
I want to butcher this. He was either the honor
man or the fire in the gut. Anyway, he was a
stud. He was a pure stud and not, not a cowardice.
If, if anybody wants to speak out about that,
I mean, that guy, that guy wasn't, he was, he
was, he was amazing. And then, you know, Chad,
I worked with Chad over at the squadron and Another
guy who just, just a phenomenal performer and
individual, and you would never see it coming,
but yeah, you know, his wife, Sarah, who sits
on our board of directors at vets, it was the,
it was the reason we really came out public to
tell this story and to talk about psychedelic
medicine, because we were sitting at his funeral
in Virginia beach. Amber was just looking around
and I was looking around and she, you know, it
was just, we just said, man, is this what we're
going to do now? The next 20 years is that we've
been in this funeral home. I don't even know
how many times for individuals killed in action.
And now we're going to be in here for individuals
that are, are death by suicide. Like we can't,
we can't keep our mouths shut anymore. And we
felt, we felt bad because We also felt that maybe
if we spoke out a little bit earlier, maybe there,
you know, maybe there would have been some hope
there or something that we could have done to
prevent this tragic incident. And so we just
said, OK, we're going to make a deal where we're
going to speak out about this. I don't care if
I'm never offered a normal job again because
somebody thinks it's weird. So I kind of looked
at it as, I think this is the right thing to
do. I don't care who doesn't believe in what
we're speaking about, but if they can't wrap
their heads around what we're doing is for the
benefit of others, then they need to go get their
head checked out. And so just going back to,
you spoke about Dave, you spoke about Chad, you
spoke about Sarah, they were a big part of where
we are today and why we're doing this. I miss
those, miss those two dearly. Um, but David had
serious, you know, he had TBI, he had traumatic
brain injury and it was causing, you know, all
the shit that you hear about. And, you know,
that operator syndrome came out a number of years
ago and talked about how, um, you know, they,
they talk about special operations, uh, individuals
in there just for the amount of you know, gunfire
and explosive work. And, and there's, and that
the majority of special operations veterans are
around those types of things more than, than,
than conventional soldiers. Although conventional
soldiers, of course, do, you know, a host of
other things that special operations guys don't
do. So I don't want to get into like, who's,
who's worse off, but that, that, that study initially
was on special operations veterans and the amount
of, of, of subconcussive and concussive blows
that individuals are around and it's causing
these micro tears in the brain. And the micro
tears are causing like just imbalance in our
bodies that are causing us the ability to, or
the inability to sleep. Our hormones are out
of whack. I mean, I have friends that like come
back at 35 years old with their testosterone
levels under 300. You know, I'm sure the same
in your world. James, but like, this is not normal,
right? And low testosterone like that causes
an individual to be depressed or angry and vice
versa. And you have all these comorbid diagnoses
that, you know, how does a doctor even know what
to prescribe, right? So what they know is like,
oh, you're angry, you're depressed, you have
anxiety when you're in crowds, well, you have
PTSD. So we're going to give you this brown bag
full of all these prescription medicines for
PTSD. Oh, and by the way, we're not going to
look inside your brain yet. We're just going
to give you all these medicines. Why would we
take a photo of what's happening inside before
we just start treating it? Like you do to every
other part of your body, right? And so there's
an overlap between, I call it MTBI or traumatic
brain injury and post -traumatic stress. And
all the hosts of other diagnoses that come along
with it. And so, you know, the research, it's
getting stronger. I mean, I know there's good
work going on, but it's very difficult to deal
with. Again, when you really don't know what
you're dealing with, you're like, is this a brain
thing? Is this a psychological thing? You know,
is this childhood trauma? Is this wartime trauma?
Is it a traumatic brain injury? I don't know.
Is it low testosterone? And, you know, I think
we got a lot more work to do trying to figure
out how to treat the whole human, right? This
kind of integrative medicine or holistic health,
whatever you want to call it. That's how we need
to be approaching this effort is from, you know,
mind, body, spirit, preventative care. And for
us that are a bit damaged, then, you know, we
need it. We need to fix things, but we could
also work on things prior to them happening.
Absolutely. And like you said, it's usually,
you know, all those elements is going to be a
combination of everything. Perfect storm of all
those things. And sadly, as you touched on, I
think in the beginning, or maybe I was thinking
another conversation, you know, the real test
for this kind of damage has to be done post -mortem.
So you can't just pull out the brain and look
at it and then pop it back in someone when they're
still alive. So I think that's another. tragic
you know barrier to to progressing in that medicine
so i think just has to be the assumption you
know whether you're in law enforcement i've had
people on here that taught breaching so they
were there breach after breach after breach you
know getting this concussion over and over again
well it's the same with our cancer presumption
and some of the other things in the fire service
you are awake 24 hours a day every third day
there's your presumption You don't need to show
me, oh, this cancer came from that car fire back
in 1997. No, you were up every fucking third
day. There's your prevention. It's the same with
this. If you were exposed to concussion, then
there just needs to be an assumption. You did
this for our country. You come home. We're going
to take care of you now. Yep. Which some will
argue we do a good or we don't do a good job
doing. There's room for improvement. There's
always room for improvement. I think if you stop
or it's time to stop improving, it's time to
figure out to do something else at that point.
But we could always improve forever. I mean,
shit, my dad improved to the day he died of pancreatic
cancer. He probably lived the best years of his
life the last two or three years just because
he was in such a good state of mind. and just
learned that, you know, the way he was prior
to that was not, was not cool. So he learned,
and I think it gave him a couple extra years.
Was it a diagnosis that was the pivot in that?
Yeah, I think it was a diagnosis and it was the,
it was a diagnosis and they gave him three months
to live. And it was the fact that Amber called
him every single day and talked about, spirituality
and just, um, just life. And he really like just
kind of sprouted after that, you know, what was
70, 70 years old. So, um, but you know, I, I
said it earlier. I don't think, I don't think,
um, at least for veterans, you know, the VA and
those that are covered under TRICARE. Other insurance,
you know, at the individual level, I think everybody
cares and everybody's trying, but that's not
good enough. You know, we need to figure, figure
something out. It's really, I mean, even individuals
who have all the money in the world, it seems
to have, they seem to have a hard time finding
where to find the right. specialists right treatments
uh you know i've heard about stuff years after
i left the military like oh you didn't know about
this program no i didn't um i didn't at all like
why didn't i know like i was medically retired
like i went through a bunch of shit um because
i was having some some issues and like i'm i
think i should know about that specific program
that takes individuals that have, um, you know,
things going on with their head. And, uh, yeah,
I mean, some of these programs are there, but
they're just, you don't know about them or maybe
they're, maybe they're not put together. Well,
I don't know, but I do think the private sector
needs to step in a little bit. Um, if they're
able to, to, to augment or take over some of
the, some of the public, um, facing, um, you
know, treatments and healthcare protocols and
other things that we can do. Well, I want to
get to the creation of vets because obviously
like so many people on the show, as I mentioned,
whether they're military, police, fire, have
come out of that profession and then found other
ways to give. I mean, Ryan, the Sons of the Flag
and Birdseye Projects, perfect example. But talk
to me about, so you had this Ibogaine journey,
this experience. What was the other side like
for you? And then as you walk me through that,
then let's talk about that kind of moment where
you went, okay, I need to bring this to other
men that I work with. Yeah. So the protocol I
did was Ibogaine followed by 5 -MeO -DMT, which
is a molecule that initially came from the Sonoran
Desert Toad. And it has become so popular that
they've moved to a synthetic version of it, which
is completely, it's the same molecule. It's fine.
It's great. But the two together were very synergistic.
And the Ibogaine beat me down and helped me kind
of clear what was going on in terms of like my
trauma and reset, you know, kind of reset my
central nervous system. And the 5 -MeO DMT, um,
really, uh, introduced me to, uh, more of a spiritual
life. Um, you know, it was very, it was so profound.
Uh, I really can't explain, uh, explain the experience,
but, um, if you're ever wondering whether there's
a more powerful being or energy, uh, at play
here, um, there's definitely no doubt, uh, if
you can get to the right place. So that was my
experience. And we just wanted to pay it forward.
I mean, the change, it was so radical, my thinking,
when I got out of my Ibogaine experience, that
I turned to Amber. I saw her. She flew in. And
I just said, this is exactly what the guys need.
Like, this is it. Like, I can't even believe
this has been hidden. I can't believe more people
don't know about it. I turned to the doctor at
the time and I just said, Hey, I assume thousands
of veterans have done this. He's like, no, no,
there's a few Marines, like a couple, like maybe
like a long time ago or like one or two Marines
or something. And then there was like one other
seal. And I just said, why? You know, I was like,
almost got angry. And I, and I turned to Amber
and I just said, this is it. Like, This is what
they need. I mean, we're all doing the same shit.
They're handing us antidepressants and anti -anxiety
medications and anti -psychotics for some and
medicine to go to sleep and medicine to stay
awake, medicine to focus. And all you need is
a plant medicine that's literally been on this
earth for thousands of years and been used the
correct way. for forever. And, um, I'm sure we'll
fuck that up somehow, but, um, yeah, I mean,
to me, I found, I felt like I found the answer
and all I wanted to do is pay it forward. And
so I didn't know how to do that. So I figured,
well, I need to do it the same way that it was
done for me. Um, Kirk Parsley and Mikhail Vega,
they worked in the background together to, um,
raise a little bit of funding for me to be able
to afford this treatment because it's not cheap.
Hopefully it gets cheaper and we will have failed
when psychedelic medicine does become federally
legalized here, which MDMA will be within the
year, psilocybin within the next two years, psilocybin
will be federally legalized in Oregon within
the next year. And then so we're going to have
to know how to how to be able to treat people
of lower incomes, not just people who have four
or five thousand dollars to spend on these things.
Otherwise, we definitely have failed. And but
it's coming. It's happening. These medicines
work and and you go back to that's we we want
to pay it forward. So we started raising money
on a grassroots effort. I think Amber's goal
was to get. 12 individuals over the next 12 months
and i believe we funded 35 individuals wow that
year um well then just kind of naturally progressed
like grassroots effort um found some really good
individual donors um that were really part of
um just really into what we were doing and knew
we can drive change. And so we have some, we
have some great, we have a great donor base.
I believe in the cause and we have funded now.
I don't like to put a direct number on it, but
it's several hundred over. I'd say definitely
over 500 that we have funded through, through
the nonprofit. for individuals to go outside
the U .S. and do these treatments. And we're
treatment agnostic, so we're not a treating entity.
We can't be a treating entity as a 501c3, but
we can award grant scholarships, and that's what
we do. And so we have three pillars of vets.
One is resources, meaning you apply, we grant
you a scholarship, we give you the education
about psychedelic medicine, how they started,
how they're being used. where they're going,
you make the choice as an individual and you
have to do it in a country where it's legal or
unregulated, or we will not grant you that scholarship.
And so we have vetted retreats and clinics all
throughout the world that we know are safe and
that are doing good work. And, and so we provide
somewhere between 150 and 200 scholarships a
year in our data database. We actually have thousands
of applications and you know, the, We just can't
keep up with the demand right now. It's crazy.
So we provide resources. We are focused also
now on research. Without research, we can't move
the dial in D .C. with the lawmakers. So we have
several studies going on. We have a study with
Stanford that's just finishing up the treatment
portion of 30 individuals with mild traumatic
brain injury. They're going to do Ibogaine. They
do fMRI. imaging and a bunch of cognitive batteries.
And so that study is very promising. I think
you're going to hear a lot about it in the next
year to year and a half when those results come
out. And then we have some data collection efforts
going on with Ohio State and Johns Hopkins. And
we have several other proposals in hand. psilocybin
with 5 -MeO -DMT, with MDMA, couples therapy
through the VA. And so there's just, there's
a lot happening. And so that's the research efforts
and that costs money, as you know. And then the
third pillar is advocacy work. So, you know,
Amber and I, and along with the VETS team, we've
grown to a pretty significant team now, just
some amazing individuals that we're working with.
You know, our efforts in Washington, D .C., lobbying
and talking to lawmakers and educating. uh, just
kind of what, what we, what we do, where we came
from, why this is working, um, the look at us
and say like, Hey, we're not, um, you know, we're
not hippies at Woodstock that were just kind
of running around, uh, you know, on, on, on these
medicines, you, you know, utilizing them as recreational
drugs. Like these are, these are powerful medicines
that, um, when used correctly, are literally
life -changing and life -saving for generations.
And so we really need to pour money into more
research. We need to allow access to these medicines
right here in the U .S. for people who are suffering
to be able to have the same experience that myself
and all the others that have come through and
that are doing these. This stuff is happening
all over the place, whether it's legal or illegal.
Unfortunately, we can only fund, obviously, legitimate,
above -board individuals that are going for these
treatments in, like I said, places that are legal
or unregulated. But people are getting healing
everywhere on their own because what would you
do if you weren't getting the success you needed
or the treatment you needed? You'd probably go
find... out where these are being offered and
you'd go, you know, you'd go pay money or whatever.
So we just have to, you know, we believe that
these, these have to be done correctly. We do
believe that they need some, some oversight and
it needs to be regulated. I, I'm, you know, I'm
not convinced yet that these medicines just need
to be like turned into the, into the market,
just kind of like as a free for all. for people
to use, you know, who they want, when they want.
These are powerful. These are not, these medicines
are nothing to, to, to take lightly. They should
be approached with like huge respect. There needs
to be a ton of preparation prior to having these
experiences. And then there needs to, on the
backend, you know, a significant portion of integration
support from therapists. after to bring that
person back into reality and if you can you know
take these psychedelic drugs and then wrap them
into just an amazing therapeutic program um you
have you have a formula that can't be touched
absolutely hundreds of people on here tell you
the same exact story yeah well like i said several
have been on this podcast too and it's something
it just makes so much sense to me and The perspective,
the lens that I've had with the epic failure
of the prohibition of drugs has been as a firefighter
and a paramedic. So, you know, I've watched,
I've pulled, you know, 15 year old, you know,
a sheet over a 15 year old corpse that has, you
know, died for some drug deal gone wrong or protecting
his quote unquote turf. I've watched the homelessness,
the prostitution, the overdoses. So, you know,
that anyone who puts their hand on their heart
as a first responder knows that. That has created
so much death and destruction, and we've empowered
the underworld, and we've driven the people having
mental health crises that turn to addiction into
the shadows, and sadly, we find their corpses.
The other side of the conversation is that we
have men and women that fight for... America,
UK, Australia, who then come home and cannot
seek the very treatment that will actually heal
them for the service that they gave to their
country without going overseas. And that is another
completely unacceptable element. And just as
you said, if there's some acceptance, people
are like, oh, yeah, yeah, but I don't think people
should be able to have access to them. We're
not talking about putting meth in the supermarket.
We're talking about decriminalizing it. You're
caught with meth. You're not thrown into a prison
cell. You're funneled into mental health help
and addiction help. And it's the same with this.
No, MDMA and psilocybin shouldn't be in the shops.
It may be recreational psilocybin. Maybe. I don't
know. But Ibogaine and those kind of things that
are therapeutic should absolutely be in the hands
of the well -trained medical community that are
familiar with those and the counselors. At least
accessible, right? Yeah, exactly. So when I had
Dr. Ben Sessa on, who's from the University of
Bristol in the UK, and they have amazing success
with MDMA -led. therapy and they don't prescribe
mdma don't go leave and then go to a rave on
your own you have mdma your kind of internal
walls come down you go through a counseling session
i think it's three of them it's like one week
third week and then six weeks and then that's
it and they've seen this continue to work now
i as a young man in the uk could find mdma anywhere
recreationally but they cannot Use that. It's
purely in their research. So again, you know,
whether it's psilocybin, whether it's ibogaine,
whether it's, you know, MDMA, these are proven
to work. And yet our ridiculous backward prohibition
laws that were founded on racism and job justification
have continued to stack the bodies for the last
80 years. So we talk about show me the studies.
Well, there's the most epic longitudinal study
of what a fucking complete failure prohibition
is. And here's yet another conversation that
underlines why we need to decriminalize some
of these drugs, put them back in the hands of
the medical community so we can start healing
our first responders and our veterans and everyone
else who can benefit from it on our own country's
soil. Yeah, I agree. We have to turn it into
a health problem, not into a criminal problem.
Like you just mentioned, those individuals that
are hooked on some of these drugs, you throw
them in a jail, what's going to happen? They're
going to get worse. So it's not like they're
going to give any better, you know, but, but
if you take that individual and rehabilitate
that person and try to put them back into society,
I mean, I know it's easy to say difficult to
execute, but much better than the alternative,
which is just to like throw everybody in jail,
get caught with like, I don't know, a few, you
know, a bag of mushrooms in their pocket or,
you know, some cocaine or whatever. Again, it's
case by case scenario. I'm not going to sit here,
but. We've seen the war on drugs has completely
failed and wasted a ton of money for certain.
And both sides of the aisle will say that now.
So that's not a partisan thing. It's definitely
a bipartisan issue. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
again, you know, smuggling, selling, that's a
whole different conversation. I'm talking about
personal use for the app. So, and going back
to your MDMA conversation around PTSD, you know,
Amber and I are working closely with the VA right
now and with, you know, Rick Doblin of maps to.
To really build these studies and clinical trials
around couples MDMA therapy for the VA, we want
to have access to these medicines as soon as
possible. So the faster we can build these trials
and show that these medicines are quite effective
and more effective than what's currently being
offered, the quicker they will be able to get
in the hands of first responders, military veterans,
and even low -income. you know, the low income
population, which again, I think we have failed
if these medicines are only offered for wealthy
individuals, I can afford them because insurance
is not going to pay. I don't think for a while
that's going to take some time. But we have to
have, you know, also a robust data collection
effort to make sure that we're showing that these
drugs are efficacious and they're working because
we still have to play. I feel within the system,
you know, you could say, screw the system. You
know, I say, yeah, you know, a lot of the system
doesn't work. A lot of system does work. We just
have to figure out how to, you know, find the
right way to work with the system to allow these
medicines to be accessed. Absolutely. Well, for
people listening, where can they find Vets? And
Vets is Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions.
So where can they find that online? If they're
out there hurting, how can they put an application
in? And then also, how can they donate if they're
in a position to do that? Yeah, excellent. So
if those out there that are listening, we are
at vetsolutions .org. That's V -E -T solutions
.org. There's a ton of material on the website.
There's application under Healing Grants on the
drop -down menu under Healing Grants. There's
an e -course that we had built that's just phenomenal.
We get people all the time that send in notes
and just compliment on how well that course was
put together. And it's a really great... It's
kind of like psychedelics 101, but it takes you
all the way back to how they were, you know,
where they started, how they were initially intended
for use and kind of how they've grown to where
they're at today and how they're being used for,
you know, for all different type of issues. So
vetsolutions .org. There's also a donate. button
on the website i believe we're accepting cryptocurrencies
now um we'd like to we'd like to accept them
now that they're down so we can sell them um
but yeah um please support us follow us on instagram
follow us on linkedin uh i think we also have
a facebook page i'm sure beautiful well marcus
i just want to say thank you so much i mean Firstly,
the work that you're doing, as with so many people
out on here that, as I mentioned before, leave
a position of service and then carry on the serve
outside. But also to have the courage and vulnerability
to tell your story, because as I'm sure you found
yourself, it's that kind of storytelling. It's
that kind of. door opening as it were that saves
lives this facade of masculinity that we were
raised on the kind of john rambo john wayne bullshit
i think is the reason we've you know been to
a lot of funerals you and i both so by having
these conversations that someone from seal team
six can tell the story that they do and continue
to i mean i hate the fact that you're still struggling
and you're you're getting these these symptoms
now that are worrying you but that's the reality
of these journeys that that we're on you know
mid and post service. So I just want to say thank
you so much for being so generous with your time
today. Yeah, James, thank you. And just for the
record, I'm in a great place. I'm in the best
place I've ever been, ever. Just mentally, spiritually,
I am having some headaches that I don't like.
And so I'm just a little concerned about that.
So I will get those checked out. But in terms
of quality of life and how I am just emotionally
and spiritually, I can't I can't ask for more.
And again, I go back to my first journey in 2017
that has helped kind of pave the way for everything
else.