WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.879 Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:03.799 my name is James Geering, and this week it is 00:00:03.799 --> 00:00:06.299 my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show 00:00:06.299 --> 00:00:09.939 for the fourth time now, Chicago ER physician 00:00:09.939 --> 00:00:15.300 and humanitarian, Dr. Thayer Ahmad. Now, in this 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.980 conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from 00:00:17.980 --> 00:00:20.460 what he's seeing in his own city as far as the 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:23.879 deployment of ICE and the National Guard, obesity 00:00:23.879 --> 00:00:27.780 and the healthcare crisis, innovation in healthcare, 00:00:28.460 --> 00:00:32.100 The Gaza ceasefire, what needs to happen to see 00:00:32.100 --> 00:00:36.340 continued peace in Gaza, and so much more. Now, 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:38.219 before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.200 as I say every week, please just take a moment. 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:44.799 Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.679 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:52.859 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:55.520 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.399 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:04.459 well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in 00:01:04.459 --> 00:01:07.700 return is that you help share these incredible 00:01:07.700 --> 00:01:10.680 men and women's stories so I can get them to 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:13.859 every single person on planet Earth who needs 00:01:13.859 --> 00:01:17.799 to hear them. So with that being said, I welcome 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:41.879 back onto the show Dr. Thea Ahmad. Enjoy. Well, 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:44.200 Thayer, I want to start by saying welcome back. 00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:48.280 This is our fourth conversation in less than 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:51.099 two years. You have definitely become, not just 00:01:51.099 --> 00:01:53.379 on this show, but I think nationally or internationally, 00:01:53.739 --> 00:01:56.620 become one of the most kind of centrist voices 00:01:56.620 --> 00:01:59.939 on the whole issue as far as, you know, what's 00:01:59.939 --> 00:02:02.799 going on in Gaza at the moment. So firstly, I 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:04.560 just want to welcome you back. Thank you so much. 00:02:05.450 --> 00:02:07.230 I appreciate it. Of course, always great to be 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:09.509 on and able to talk about some things in detail. 00:02:09.569 --> 00:02:11.430 So I appreciate it. So where on planet Earth 00:02:11.430 --> 00:02:14.509 are we finding you today? I'm back in Chicago 00:02:14.509 --> 00:02:17.569 after spending some time in D .C. And before 00:02:17.569 --> 00:02:19.689 that, I was in the West Bank for a few weeks 00:02:19.689 --> 00:02:23.090 teaching a course and being denied entry into 00:02:23.090 --> 00:02:25.889 Gaza again. Well, before we even go down that 00:02:25.889 --> 00:02:29.150 road, there is this kind of parallel issue that's 00:02:29.150 --> 00:02:31.409 going on at the moment where National Guardsmen 00:02:31.409 --> 00:02:36.030 and women are being deployed into national cities 00:02:36.030 --> 00:02:38.830 in America. And there's no doubt, I mean, you 00:02:38.830 --> 00:02:40.490 and I have both seen it with our own eyes in 00:02:40.490 --> 00:02:43.050 the professions that we serve in, that we have 00:02:43.050 --> 00:02:45.810 a violence problem in this country. That being 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:48.789 said, from an ER physician's point of view, from 00:02:48.789 --> 00:02:51.810 a resident of the city of Chicago, what are your 00:02:51.810 --> 00:02:54.860 observations about... the violence that you're 00:02:54.860 --> 00:02:57.479 seeing and then this kind of tactic that's being 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.539 used at the moment. Yeah, I mean, this is a disastrous 00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:02.960 rollout that we've seen take place here in Chicago. 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:07.000 I think first it's important, I think, to understand 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:09.840 how you got to this point. And I think there's 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:11.560 a couple of reasons. But at the end of the day, 00:03:11.580 --> 00:03:14.280 these are all moves that are motivated by political 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.120 gains and not actually addressing some of the 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:19.419 real problems that exist on the ground. And so, 00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:22.240 you know, Chicago, I think, is one of the major 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.379 metropolitan cities where we saw there was a 00:03:24.379 --> 00:03:27.620 massive influx of people who've migrated from 00:03:27.620 --> 00:03:30.759 other countries. many of whom are documented 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:34.039 and many of whom are undocumented. And so particularly, 00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:36.159 I think we saw in the last few years, we saw 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.659 a rise in undocumented migrants coming to Chicago, 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.379 specifically from Venezuela, El Salvador, Latin 00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:45.979 America, but also from countries really all around 00:03:45.979 --> 00:03:48.520 the world. And they had arrived via the southern 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:54.370 border. But I think. That already existed in 00:03:54.370 --> 00:03:57.150 a public health sort of world where you were 00:03:57.150 --> 00:04:00.050 concerned about the situation that existed. I 00:04:00.050 --> 00:04:01.689 mean, many folks were actually living out on 00:04:01.689 --> 00:04:04.349 the streets. They did not have a place that they 00:04:04.349 --> 00:04:07.629 could stay. The shelters were overcrowded and 00:04:07.629 --> 00:04:12.189 were not able to accommodate people. This idea 00:04:12.189 --> 00:04:14.969 of, you know, sort of the National Guard being 00:04:14.969 --> 00:04:17.490 deployed ice roaming through the streets. I mean, 00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:20.529 it's just been totally disastrous because I think 00:04:20.529 --> 00:04:24.470 you saw a very organized effort from the community 00:04:24.470 --> 00:04:28.470 really pushing back on this idea of using the 00:04:28.470 --> 00:04:30.629 United States military or increase in sort of 00:04:30.629 --> 00:04:35.569 federal officers like ICE. And we even saw actually 00:04:35.569 --> 00:04:38.490 somebody who I've met before, one of our, an 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:41.399 older woman, she was. In an emergency department, 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.459 there were some folks that came through. They 00:04:44.459 --> 00:04:46.779 did not necessarily identify who they were, but 00:04:46.779 --> 00:04:48.160 I think the presumption is that they were likely 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.639 ICE officers, and they were trying to arrest 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.379 somebody who was in the hospital. And in the 00:04:52.379 --> 00:04:54.319 process, she got arrested because she was asking 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:56.920 for them to show a badge or a warrant, and then 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.319 they were able to sort of arrest her. The other 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:02.660 thing that we're hearing take place is local 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:06.800 leaders and aspiring, I think, elected officials. 00:05:06.819 --> 00:05:10.040 There's one person, her name is... Kat Abugazela. 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.959 She's going to be running for Congresswoman Jan 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.100 Schakowsky's district. Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:20.560 is retiring. And she actually, there's a video 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:23.680 of her getting body slammed while she's protesting, 00:05:23.939 --> 00:05:28.120 I believe, at an ICE detention center. And she 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.959 now today announced, or I think yesterday, that 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.160 the FBI, the Department of Justice, is going 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.240 to be charging her and six others with a federal 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:39.720 crime. And so this is becoming a very politicized 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.560 thing. I think we're seeing it play out. I think 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.399 there's a couple of different motivations, especially 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.180 when it comes to whether you're talking about 00:05:47.180 --> 00:05:49.620 fighting crime via the National Guard, which 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:54.439 will not work. I mean, it's not going to be something 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.670 that I think. The city of Chicago will see a 00:05:58.670 --> 00:06:00.810 decrease in crime or a decrease in the murder 00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:02.170 rate. I mean, these are all issues that are, 00:06:02.209 --> 00:06:04.350 I think, very important to everybody that lives 00:06:04.350 --> 00:06:05.870 in the city of Chicago. But I don't think anybody 00:06:05.870 --> 00:06:08.529 thinks that we should be using the National Guard 00:06:08.529 --> 00:06:10.389 to address it. It doesn't make sense. I mean, 00:06:10.430 --> 00:06:12.790 they don't know the streets of Chicago. They 00:06:12.790 --> 00:06:14.589 don't know the community. You're putting them 00:06:14.589 --> 00:06:17.629 in a very vulnerable position. Many of them who 00:06:17.629 --> 00:06:19.089 are here in Chicago don't look like they want 00:06:19.089 --> 00:06:21.709 to be here. You know, so it's just you feel like 00:06:21.709 --> 00:06:23.490 you're sort of in this game of chess between 00:06:23.490 --> 00:06:25.490 all these different politicians. who are playing 00:06:25.490 --> 00:06:28.629 with American lives. The other thing is Tom Holman, 00:06:28.649 --> 00:06:32.410 who's in charge now of ICE. You know, there's 00:06:32.410 --> 00:06:36.949 one thing I will say. He needs numbers. You need 00:06:36.949 --> 00:06:39.529 numbers. And so what you'll see, and I think 00:06:39.529 --> 00:06:41.910 what almost every American who you ask about 00:06:41.910 --> 00:06:44.949 this seems to be against it, is this guy's got 00:06:44.949 --> 00:06:48.060 to produce. number of people that he's deported 00:06:48.060 --> 00:06:49.980 or number of people that he's arrested. Well, 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:51.600 the best way to do that are the people that you 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:53.600 have on file or that the people that are going 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.019 through the system currently, because you know 00:06:56.019 --> 00:06:59.600 where they live, you know where their family's 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:01.560 at, you know where they work. And so you go after 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:03.060 them first. That's why you're seeing some of 00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:05.500 these really... difficult scenes where somebody's 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:07.420 like wife just delivered and this guy's been 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:09.399 here and it's because they know where these folks 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:11.180 are and that's an easy way to get the numbers 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:13.399 up it's an easy way to say this quarter we deported 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:15.540 more people than any other president ever and 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:17.000 then the next quarter we're going to hit these 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.120 numbers as well and so you have this weird sort 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:23.360 of you know the government and its ability to 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:27.060 sort of do things to curb the rights of individuals 00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:29.839 seems to be getting bigger and bolder and at 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:32.860 the same time you don't really see any sort of 00:07:32.860 --> 00:07:35.399 leadership pushing back against that in a way 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:39.120 that unites people. I think there's been several 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:40.920 major things that have happened in this country 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:45.459 where we saw the lack of leadership has only 00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:47.759 sort of instigated things. And I'll give you 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.519 one quick example. I thought when Charlie Kirk 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.040 was assassinated, that there was a moment in 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:56.139 this country where if you had a really good leader, 00:07:56.180 --> 00:07:58.560 somebody would step up and say, okay, the way 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.810 we're doing things is wrong. This is not working. 00:08:01.910 --> 00:08:04.629 Political violence is becoming more and more 00:08:04.629 --> 00:08:07.689 omnipresent in our everyday lives. It's happening 00:08:07.689 --> 00:08:11.009 all the place. Charlie was a very polarizing 00:08:11.009 --> 00:08:14.870 figure. He practices politics in a certain way. 00:08:14.949 --> 00:08:16.949 And there are a lot of people who did not like 00:08:16.949 --> 00:08:20.870 what he had to say. But in this moment, it's 00:08:20.870 --> 00:08:24.029 important to recognize this as... something that 00:08:24.029 --> 00:08:27.189 has crossed the line in a way that we have to 00:08:27.189 --> 00:08:30.089 get back from. And I didn't see that at all from 00:08:30.089 --> 00:08:32.870 anybody. Nobody did that. Nobody stepped up and 00:08:32.870 --> 00:08:34.549 said, it's time for leadership. It's time to 00:08:34.549 --> 00:08:37.610 come together. Whether it was firebombing Governor 00:08:37.610 --> 00:08:40.490 Josh Shapiro's house in Pennsylvania, or somebody 00:08:40.490 --> 00:08:42.570 assassinating Charlie Kirk on a college campus, 00:08:42.649 --> 00:08:46.529 or the two Minnesota politicians who were murdered 00:08:46.529 --> 00:08:48.350 because of some, you know, a political opponent. 00:08:48.490 --> 00:08:50.549 So I think it's a lack of leadership and we're 00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:51.830 seeing it play out on the streets of Chicago. 00:08:52.909 --> 00:08:54.830 One of my law enforcement friends gave me a really 00:08:54.830 --> 00:08:58.190 interesting insight. He's a former gang unit, 00:08:58.850 --> 00:09:00.769 you know, very, very well respected, travels 00:09:00.769 --> 00:09:03.649 all over the country speaking. And he was talking 00:09:03.649 --> 00:09:05.809 about, you know, I think no one, none of us are 00:09:05.809 --> 00:09:08.389 on the streets are going to push back against 00:09:08.389 --> 00:09:10.519 the fact that there are. you know, there's a 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:12.259 huge amount of violence. And if you look at it, 00:09:12.299 --> 00:09:15.200 you know, in the Western developed world, as 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.259 far as our statistics, they're awful. In fact, 00:09:17.259 --> 00:09:20.340 I just saw, I think we have 10 times the murder 00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:23.399 rate of Japan, for example, per capita. I mean, 00:09:23.419 --> 00:09:25.659 you know, so as we said, the way we're doing 00:09:25.659 --> 00:09:28.500 it is not working, but to your point, he said, 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:30.639 they don't have the national guards, obviously 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:32.379 not going to have the relationship with these 00:09:32.379 --> 00:09:34.559 local people that are, you know, they're building 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:37.340 so they can get to. you know the real kind of 00:09:37.340 --> 00:09:39.580 head of the snake as it were and then in our 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:41.620 conversation i was also saying well imagine if 00:09:41.620 --> 00:09:46.340 a national guardsman shot an american what would 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:48.019 that do to this country and you're putting those 00:09:48.019 --> 00:09:51.379 men and women in that that that scenario you 00:09:51.379 --> 00:09:53.320 know and all it takes is one person with ill 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:55.879 intent to initiate that and now we're going to 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:58.620 have you know a national issue so i think it's 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:00.620 a horrendous idea and then again with the ice 00:10:00.620 --> 00:10:03.759 thing No one is also saying, this is why you 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:05.519 and I talked about this before, the centrist, 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:09.019 the middle common sense voice is by far the most 00:10:09.019 --> 00:10:10.940 censored. Because I've said this many times, 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.820 I can't stand the extremes to the left and the 00:10:13.820 --> 00:10:16.940 extremes to the right. I was reflecting the other 00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:20.460 day, I was lauded by the left when I dared speak 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:22.879 up about vaccine mandates with first responders 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.409 and doctors and nurses. after they'd been without 00:10:25.409 --> 00:10:28.090 PPE and any protection for a year, and all of 00:10:28.090 --> 00:10:30.190 a sudden they're being called murderers. I got 00:10:30.190 --> 00:10:33.529 lauded for suggesting that underlying illnesses, 00:10:33.769 --> 00:10:37.190 obesity, et cetera, smoking, were a massive contributor 00:10:37.190 --> 00:10:40.850 to COVID, the deaths. How dare you? Again, so 00:10:40.850 --> 00:10:43.009 apparently I'm right -wing then. Then all of 00:10:43.009 --> 00:10:45.309 a sudden, now you stand up to, hey, maybe tens 00:10:45.309 --> 00:10:47.710 of thousands of children being murdered is a 00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:49.529 bad thing. And now all of a sudden, oh, you must 00:10:49.529 --> 00:10:52.340 be left -wing whatever. And so this is what's 00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:55.200 so ridiculous with the immigration. Firstly, 00:10:55.340 --> 00:10:57.059 of course, if people are over here with ill intent 00:10:57.059 --> 00:10:59.620 from other countries, you absolutely should be 00:10:59.620 --> 00:11:01.200 shipping them off and sending them back to where 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.159 they came from. No one is going to dispute that. 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.600 But that's not what we're seeing. We're even 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.519 seeing now U .S. citizens being detained. So 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.779 this is the overreach. It's not about that everyone 00:11:12.779 --> 00:11:14.820 thinks the borders should be wide open and everyone 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:16.399 thinks that anyone that comes in the country 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.759 should be able to do whatever they want, run 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:21.009 around raping and pillaging. No. But where is 00:11:21.009 --> 00:11:23.190 that line in the sand where you say, OK, now 00:11:23.190 --> 00:11:25.210 we're getting into government overreach and this 00:11:25.210 --> 00:11:27.789 is happening all over the place and every level 00:11:27.789 --> 00:11:30.429 that we're seeing? Yeah, and I would rephrase 00:11:30.429 --> 00:11:32.230 it, too. I don't think that we would call our 00:11:32.230 --> 00:11:34.529 I don't I don't think centrist is the right word. 00:11:34.590 --> 00:11:37.129 I would say there's sort of a values based approach 00:11:37.129 --> 00:11:40.169 to how we want our society to look. We have these 00:11:40.169 --> 00:11:42.730 certain values. We have a priority that is human 00:11:42.730 --> 00:11:47.970 life and human dignity. And I think you're totally 00:11:47.970 --> 00:11:52.389 spot on. It's like the more extreme you are with 00:11:52.389 --> 00:11:54.509 these identity politics, you stop critically 00:11:54.509 --> 00:11:56.889 thinking about how am I affecting the other human 00:11:56.889 --> 00:11:59.389 beings that are here? And you start losing all 00:11:59.389 --> 00:12:01.730 of it. You don't get a chance to have a nuanced 00:12:01.730 --> 00:12:04.190 discussion where you can learn about facts and 00:12:04.190 --> 00:12:07.490 also respect each individual for who they are. 00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:12.269 came to mind. There has been National Guard that 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:14.090 have killed Americans before. This happened in 00:12:14.090 --> 00:12:16.169 our country, and it was during the Vietnam War 00:12:16.169 --> 00:12:19.909 and the anti -war protests. It happened at Kent 00:12:19.909 --> 00:12:24.970 State... It happened at a Kent State shooting 00:12:24.970 --> 00:12:29.549 in 1970. There was National Guard deployed. Anti 00:12:29.549 --> 00:12:32.490 -Vietnam protests. It was clearly bad policy 00:12:32.490 --> 00:12:34.669 in this country in terms of engaging in the Vietnam 00:12:34.669 --> 00:12:37.610 War. There were an incredible amount of bloodshed. 00:12:37.669 --> 00:12:40.269 And everyday Americans wanted to protest that. 00:12:40.350 --> 00:12:42.409 And the National Guard was used to crowd control, 00:12:42.509 --> 00:12:44.870 which is not why the National Guard exists. You 00:12:44.870 --> 00:12:46.710 don't need the National Guard to do that. And 00:12:46.710 --> 00:12:48.610 you had a tragic incident that took place. I 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:50.549 think six or seven people were killed. And so 00:12:50.549 --> 00:12:52.769 that's one thing that I'll say. And then the 00:12:52.769 --> 00:12:55.789 other thing about this, too, is I think I spoke 00:12:55.789 --> 00:13:01.259 to... Both two young men, Mahmoud Khalil and 00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:06.480 Mohsen Madawi, who both were students at Columbia 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.220 earlier this year. And one was a green card holder. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.539 The other was in the process of getting his citizenship 00:13:11.539 --> 00:13:15.480 here in the United States. And this whole. process 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.120 when I say it's all become so politicized and 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.340 it's trying to underscore politicians. Both of 00:13:20.340 --> 00:13:24.200 those gentlemen were detained. Now they're out 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.779 on bail, but they're going to be in this weird 00:13:26.779 --> 00:13:29.360 moment here where there may be a precedent established 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.980 for this country where if somebody says something 00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:34.220 critical about the current government or about 00:13:34.220 --> 00:13:36.820 the current government's policies, then they 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:40.820 are at risk of being deported, arrested, or whatever 00:13:40.820 --> 00:13:44.820 it is. not a value that we want this country 00:13:44.820 --> 00:13:47.659 to espouse. Not if we think that we have the 00:13:47.659 --> 00:13:49.779 greatest president at this time, or we think 00:13:49.779 --> 00:13:51.799 that this is the greatest country in the world. 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:54.820 It does not mean that I don't really like what 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:57.259 this person is saying. And so I'm going to use 00:13:57.259 --> 00:13:59.840 the system in a way to punish them. There's a 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.379 word for that. Other countries do that, but they 00:14:02.379 --> 00:14:05.740 tend to be authoritarian regimes where individuals 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:08.559 have no rights whatsoever. And I'm really worried 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.750 about that because today it is... you know, a 00:14:11.750 --> 00:14:16.009 Republican president who's doing it to who he 00:14:16.009 --> 00:14:18.370 believes are leftists. But I promise tomorrow 00:14:18.370 --> 00:14:20.529 it will be a Democratic president who will be 00:14:20.529 --> 00:14:23.490 doing it to conservatives that they feel are 00:14:23.490 --> 00:14:25.490 whatever, you know, saying things that they don't 00:14:25.490 --> 00:14:28.210 like. You cannot weaponize the system. Once you 00:14:28.210 --> 00:14:30.629 do that, the system is at risk of collapsing. 00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:32.679 Yeah, and we saw that. And I think that's the 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:34.899 point is that you get each of these camps when 00:14:34.899 --> 00:14:37.340 you happen to say something morally courageous 00:14:37.340 --> 00:14:39.720 in the middle that, oh, you must be from that 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.539 other one. And we saw massive overreach during 00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:45.639 the pandemic, you know, telling people they can't 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.549 leave their homes. know when again when we look 00:14:48.549 --> 00:14:51.149 at it back back now and we reflect there were 00:14:51.149 --> 00:14:53.049 groups that were definitely vulnerable and there 00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:54.970 were lots of groups that were going to have a 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:56.750 kind of a shitty time with the cold and then 00:14:56.750 --> 00:14:58.350 they're going to be okay again that's the reality 00:14:58.350 --> 00:15:01.610 so it's not a left or right thing it's it's again 00:15:01.610 --> 00:15:04.750 it's a complete abuse of power thing yeah totally 00:15:04.750 --> 00:15:08.809 i mean and again uh when you are framing it in 00:15:08.809 --> 00:15:11.690 a this side versus that side, we actually do 00:15:11.690 --> 00:15:13.769 a disservice to those vulnerable populations. 00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:17.009 We do a disservice to everybody who is going 00:15:17.009 --> 00:15:19.029 to be affected by whatever policies are being 00:15:19.029 --> 00:15:21.610 implemented. Because at the end of the day, whether 00:15:21.610 --> 00:15:23.809 it's public health or whether it's government 00:15:23.809 --> 00:15:27.210 services or whether it's just trying to be in 00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:30.190 a safer, healthier society, if you cannot get 00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:32.350 into the details or the weeds because somebody's 00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:34.850 saying, oh, you must be this kind of guy or you 00:15:34.850 --> 00:15:37.919 must think this way. I mean, we're screwing over 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:40.399 not just everybody that lives in the society, 00:15:40.460 --> 00:15:42.759 but future generations. I mean, it's just a bad 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:46.059 way to go about discourse and dialogue. I just 00:15:46.059 --> 00:15:48.559 made a video a few days ago on social media, 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:52.440 and I was just pulling out how much money a lot 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.360 of these industries, their products kill. millions 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.659 of people how much they spent on politicians. 00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:02.000 And I use a 25 -year span just because I was 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:03.419 like, all right, well, let's go to kind of beginning 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:05.659 of the year, pre -9 -11, so we can look at the 00:16:05.659 --> 00:16:08.259 war, we can look at obesity, we can look at all 00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:12.519 things. And each time it was billions of dollars 00:16:12.519 --> 00:16:15.399 to weapons companies, to pharmaceutical companies, 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:19.259 to fast food companies, from those industries. 00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:22.570 And the death toll was millions and millions 00:16:22.570 --> 00:16:25.269 and millions of Americans from cigarettes, from 00:16:25.269 --> 00:16:28.610 obesity. And then the two trillion dollars that 00:16:28.610 --> 00:16:30.929 the Iraq and Afghanistan war cost the American 00:16:30.929 --> 00:16:34.250 taxpayer. So my whole thing is we've got these 00:16:34.250 --> 00:16:36.149 ICE agents running around and I can't imagine 00:16:36.149 --> 00:16:38.789 still being a firefighter and having some twat 00:16:38.789 --> 00:16:40.909 in a balaclava running up and trying to take 00:16:40.909 --> 00:16:44.049 my patient without giving any ID. like you'd 00:16:44.049 --> 00:16:45.970 have a bunch of firefighters being arrested from 00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:48.149 knocking out an ice agent i mean you just it's 00:16:48.149 --> 00:16:50.370 not bravado it's like you know you you think 00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:52.090 that you know that was a gang member or something 00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:53.529 if you're not going to identify yourself we're 00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:55.470 assuming you're a bad person not a good person 00:16:55.470 --> 00:16:58.730 right so right but you know where is the conversation 00:16:58.730 --> 00:17:02.250 of addressing the underlying issues and if we 00:17:02.250 --> 00:17:05.049 have all these companies that perfect example 00:17:05.049 --> 00:17:09.369 the fda approves OxyContin that creates this 00:17:09.369 --> 00:17:12.769 opioid crisis that we're still losing 100 ,000 00:17:12.769 --> 00:17:15.829 Americans from every single year. But then they 00:17:15.829 --> 00:17:20.210 deny MDMA -led psychotherapy, which is showing 00:17:20.210 --> 00:17:23.630 to be incredibly effective for PTSD and all the 00:17:23.630 --> 00:17:25.470 things that first responders and veterans suffer 00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:28.910 from. If there's not a bigger red flag, I don't 00:17:28.910 --> 00:17:30.970 know what is. And the reason that a lot of these 00:17:30.970 --> 00:17:33.549 people are fleeing Mexico and some of the El 00:17:33.549 --> 00:17:37.160 Salvador. is the ripple effect of drug prohibition, 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:39.420 something that was forced onto the world after 00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:42.319 the 30s when we got it from Harry Anslinger. 00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:44.740 Where's the conversation of the decriminalization 00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:47.039 of addiction that's been so successful in other 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:49.460 countries? Where's the conversation of all the 00:17:49.460 --> 00:17:52.640 proactive things that we make Americans healthier? 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:55.000 We stopped turning our streets into gang war 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.380 zones in the first place. And a lot of these 00:17:57.380 --> 00:17:59.619 people from countries don't even feel the need 00:17:59.619 --> 00:18:02.819 to leave because we haven't disrupted their environment. 00:18:03.859 --> 00:18:05.660 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really important 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:08.799 point because it goes back to what are what's 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.039 kind of what is the base of or the values that 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:14.559 are forcing you or at least compelling you to 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:16.779 do something? Where are they coming from? And 00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:19.859 so if you are if your motivations here are tied 00:18:19.859 --> 00:18:21.660 to pharmaceutical companies and them turning 00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.099 a profit, well, then you can see how we can get 00:18:24.099 --> 00:18:26.839 sort of all of these different narcotics flooded 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.660 into our system. You can even see how how at 00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:33.019 one point our government was encouraging us to 00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:35.400 use. Use the pain scale. And if the patient was 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.960 still reporting high amount of pain, make sure 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.980 you're hitting them with morphine or Norco or 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:41.700 Oxycontin or whatever the narcotic is. But on 00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:43.420 the flip side, as you mentioned, if there's promising 00:18:43.420 --> 00:18:46.920 developments in psychedelics and MDMA and all 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:51.019 of these. All of these different new modalities, 00:18:51.019 --> 00:18:53.819 new therapies that could address a really tough 00:18:53.819 --> 00:18:57.539 problem, then you'd wonder why are regulations 00:18:57.539 --> 00:18:59.839 suddenly stiffening up? Is it because somebody 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.359 can't profit as much off of this? And then again, 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:05.279 it goes back to it's a disservice to these vulnerable 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.640 people that we're dealing with. PTSD, major depression, 00:19:09.259 --> 00:19:13.480 bipolar disorder, schizophrenia. We don't have 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.940 great answers for these mental health problems. 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.099 you know we don't have somebody who's sitting 00:19:19.099 --> 00:19:22.279 there and viewing it from sort of the the human 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:24.680 based perspective this person is struggling with 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.039 this addiction instead of they're addicted to 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.400 this drug they're addicted to narcotics they 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.130 made poor choices they're a bad person You know, 00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:34.869 you just totally internalize all those things 00:19:34.869 --> 00:19:37.109 to them. And you're not looking at it as this 00:19:37.109 --> 00:19:39.269 is a crisis that's affecting our entire society. 00:19:39.470 --> 00:19:42.930 We're losing such a potentially productive member 00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:45.430 of this society. They are losing their life. 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:48.150 It has generational impacts. If you had people 00:19:48.150 --> 00:19:50.369 thinking like that instead of, you know, oh, 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:53.690 wow, whatever this pharmaceutical company's name 00:19:53.690 --> 00:19:55.710 is, Pfizer could make potentially a billion dollars 00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:58.250 off of this. And then once I exit out of government, 00:19:58.369 --> 00:20:00.190 I could potentially be a consultant or government 00:20:00.190 --> 00:20:03.980 affairs sort of position. I mean, this is it's 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:05.859 just nonsense. And I mean, again, I'm just very 00:20:05.859 --> 00:20:07.839 disappointed in the lack of leadership across 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:09.839 the board on a lot of these issues. And it's 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:11.880 because, you know, the humanity is lost in all 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.880 of this. I just released today an episode with 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.680 Dr. Todd Otten, who is a physician. He's written 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:20.160 an incredible book actually called Ripple of 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.400 Change, where it's him and then one of his patients. 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:28.059 two perspective look at the you know the burnout 00:20:28.059 --> 00:20:30.400 in health care itself but also the kind of you 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.220 know the spiraling the the nosedive if you like 00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:36.000 of american health care and so again when you 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.839 look at supply and demand if we have a nation 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:44.299 that is 70 obese or overweight 40 obese Of course, 00:20:44.299 --> 00:20:45.759 there's going to be a drain on the health care. 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:47.799 Of course, the paramedics and EMTs of the world 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:49.779 are going to be just completely burned out. Of 00:20:49.779 --> 00:20:51.859 course, there aren't enough beds in the hospitals 00:20:51.859 --> 00:20:54.779 and doctors and nurses are seeing suicides and 00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:58.140 overdoses themselves. With that lens, talk to 00:20:58.140 --> 00:21:00.200 me about your world again. I think I don't know 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.619 if we even really dove into health care the last 00:21:02.619 --> 00:21:06.630 couple of conversations. What is the state of 00:21:06.630 --> 00:21:09.589 American health care? Because in my perspective, 00:21:09.769 --> 00:21:12.069 it seems like if we don't make a rapid change 00:21:12.069 --> 00:21:14.529 on the health of the nation soon, we're not going 00:21:14.529 --> 00:21:17.089 to have an American health care. Yeah, I mean, 00:21:17.109 --> 00:21:19.710 and, you know, I hate to kind of sound like a 00:21:19.710 --> 00:21:22.670 like a, you know, almost like this broken record 00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:26.069 player, but it's not person focused. It's not 00:21:26.069 --> 00:21:29.109 patient focused. It's not human focused. It's 00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:32.329 services based. So you're coming through the 00:21:32.329 --> 00:21:34.009 emergency department, you're coming to the hospital. 00:21:34.049 --> 00:21:36.049 It's all about what services can we provide? 00:21:36.250 --> 00:21:38.609 What procedures can we do? What surgeries can 00:21:38.609 --> 00:21:43.450 we bill for? And that is a disastrous, disastrous 00:21:43.450 --> 00:21:47.190 strategy that is not working. The system is broken, 00:21:47.269 --> 00:21:49.829 but we just keep pumping money into it. This 00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:52.789 idea that, you know. The time that you should 00:21:52.789 --> 00:21:55.329 be focused on your health should be when you're 00:21:55.329 --> 00:21:56.990 having chest pains after you're shoveling the 00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:59.890 snow after the first winter snow. You know, this 00:21:59.890 --> 00:22:02.009 is a disaster. This is how people develop the 00:22:02.009 --> 00:22:05.950 heart failure. The fact that we will watch somebody 00:22:05.950 --> 00:22:09.190 continuously. get, you know, their numbers are 00:22:09.190 --> 00:22:11.210 going upwards on, you know, in terms of their 00:22:11.210 --> 00:22:14.130 BMI and their weight and all of these things. 00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:15.990 And all we're doing is saying, well, now you 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:18.450 have diabetes. So these are the medicines that 00:22:18.450 --> 00:22:20.109 you should be prescribed as opposed to saying, 00:22:20.230 --> 00:22:22.730 hey, here's some nutritional education for you. 00:22:22.809 --> 00:22:24.309 Here's some things that you should be focused 00:22:24.309 --> 00:22:26.869 on. Here's why lifestyle and exercise are so 00:22:26.869 --> 00:22:29.190 important. We're not doing these things. We're 00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:31.230 not actually looking at it holistically. I'm 00:22:31.230 --> 00:22:33.650 not thinking about the body and the human being 00:22:33.650 --> 00:22:35.789 in front of me. I'm thinking about it as here's 00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:37.369 the heart, here's the liver. Here's the weight. 00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:39.150 Here's the brain. You know, here are all of these 00:22:39.150 --> 00:22:41.170 different things. And I see it every single day 00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:44.450 in our emergency department. We are the hospital 00:22:44.450 --> 00:22:47.210 that I work out in Chicago. We are one of the 00:22:47.210 --> 00:22:48.930 busiest emergency departments in the country. 00:22:49.390 --> 00:22:53.190 We're a trauma center. But we we are not able. 00:22:53.289 --> 00:22:57.089 I'm not seeing patients coming through. Who are 00:22:57.089 --> 00:22:59.430 these? healthy people wanting to get checked 00:22:59.430 --> 00:23:02.250 up on we're seeing people who have either never 00:23:02.250 --> 00:23:04.809 seen a doctor before or are seeing a doctor but 00:23:04.809 --> 00:23:07.430 are not able or are not given the right information 00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:10.349 to make the right choices in their lives and 00:23:10.349 --> 00:23:12.930 i'm watching as everything that we're doing to 00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:16.210 them it's just caught the cost that's on not 00:23:16.210 --> 00:23:18.769 just them but the entire system is skyrocketing 00:23:18.769 --> 00:23:22.779 i mean I think modern medicine is miraculous, 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:24.960 but I think that the way that it's practiced 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:30.299 is really just, it falls short of where we could 00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:32.859 be and what we should be doing. I mean, you think 00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:37.789 about it, I think in this way, I think. Our primary 00:23:37.789 --> 00:23:40.529 care doctors, who I think are probably the most 00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:43.990 important part of this system, they're not incentivized 00:23:43.990 --> 00:23:46.690 to spend time with the person in front of them 00:23:46.690 --> 00:23:49.069 and be able to say, look, man, I know you're 00:23:49.069 --> 00:23:51.150 smoking and you're smoking a pack per day. And 00:23:51.150 --> 00:23:53.589 if you don't cut this out now, it's going to 00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:55.569 chew up your lungs and you're going to develop 00:23:55.569 --> 00:24:00.130 this. have horrific disease called COPD or pulmonary 00:24:00.130 --> 00:24:02.970 fibrosis, or you're going to have coronary artery 00:24:02.970 --> 00:24:04.650 disease. And then one day you're going to clutch 00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:06.069 your chest and it's going to be a heart attack 00:24:06.069 --> 00:24:07.630 and it'll be too late at that point. They're 00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:10.609 not incentivized to talk to somebody longer than 00:24:10.609 --> 00:24:13.509 10 or 15 minutes. They're not incentivized. They're 00:24:13.509 --> 00:24:15.670 not being paid to sit there and talk to you about 00:24:15.670 --> 00:24:17.369 your diet, to talk to you about going to the 00:24:17.369 --> 00:24:19.069 gym, to talk to you about getting outside and 00:24:19.069 --> 00:24:21.509 getting some sunlight. They're not incentivized. 00:24:21.549 --> 00:24:23.390 What they are incentivized to do is to be able 00:24:23.390 --> 00:24:26.509 to get some blood work. look at the lab tests 00:24:26.509 --> 00:24:28.589 and be like, wow, you know, your kidney function 00:24:28.589 --> 00:24:31.210 is worse than it was six months ago. Let's follow 00:24:31.210 --> 00:24:33.630 it and check it again in six months. Let's have 00:24:33.630 --> 00:24:35.789 you go see a kidney specialist. All of these 00:24:35.789 --> 00:24:39.289 different things that are not actually to looking 00:24:39.289 --> 00:24:42.170 at somebody in totality. And what you're seeing 00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:44.589 is people are spending a lot more money. People 00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:47.210 are getting a lot. People are sicker and much 00:24:47.210 --> 00:24:49.809 less healthy. They're on more medications. They're 00:24:49.809 --> 00:24:52.049 gaining weight. They're not. There's no sort 00:24:52.049 --> 00:24:56.000 of. actual education to physicians, to nurses, 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.480 to healthcare providers, or to the patients. 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:00.700 None of us are getting educated on like the holistic 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:02.779 part of this. None of us are actually treating 00:25:02.779 --> 00:25:06.440 the mind, body, and soul. It's just one bit of 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.579 the body that we're treating when we see people. 00:25:09.220 --> 00:25:11.200 I mean, I see that too. And it's interesting 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:13.859 because when you get into the proactive world, 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:15.420 that's where you're at. You're at nutrition. 00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:17.569 You're at, you know. literally relationships 00:25:17.569 --> 00:25:21.789 time in nature in exercise um sleep quality none 00:25:21.789 --> 00:25:23.890 of that is focusing on the renal system or the 00:25:23.890 --> 00:25:26.730 cardiovascular system it's the whole human being 00:25:26.730 --> 00:25:29.009 it was interesting when the conversation with 00:25:29.009 --> 00:25:31.569 todd firstly he alluded that um to the fact that 00:25:31.569 --> 00:25:35.089 20 of our gdp in this country is on health care 00:25:35.089 --> 00:25:38.869 so i've said this many many times that we don't 00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:41.269 need more money from people you know they're 00:25:41.269 --> 00:25:43.390 already spending so much and if you look at it 00:25:43.390 --> 00:25:46.809 side by side with the nhs When you pay taxes 00:25:46.809 --> 00:25:48.549 in the UK, even though, and I'll get to this 00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:51.009 in a second, the NHS is struggling now itself. 00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:58.029 The NHS, when I was younger, it was cheaper to 00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:00.650 have it in the English system. And when you go 00:26:00.650 --> 00:26:03.029 in, as I'm sure you understand, the first thing 00:26:03.029 --> 00:26:05.009 you're not asked is your social security number. 00:26:05.089 --> 00:26:06.650 You're just like, well, what's wrong? Okay, let's 00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:08.789 get you fixed. And then when you leave after 00:26:08.789 --> 00:26:11.190 having cancer or getting hit by a bus, you're 00:26:11.190 --> 00:26:13.869 not waiting for a bill that's going to make you 00:26:13.869 --> 00:26:16.390 have to sell your house. You just go home and 00:26:16.390 --> 00:26:19.910 you focus on healing. But where the NHS, I think, 00:26:19.910 --> 00:26:22.329 is struggling is because they've allowed privatization 00:26:22.329 --> 00:26:24.970 to come in. And then also they've allowed the 00:26:24.970 --> 00:26:27.390 British people to get fatter and sicker. And 00:26:27.390 --> 00:26:30.609 so now you're crushing the system. So if you 00:26:30.609 --> 00:26:32.690 actually turned it around and you invested on 00:26:32.690 --> 00:26:35.329 making the nation healthier, and there's so many 00:26:35.329 --> 00:26:37.049 things that should have come out of COVID, the 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:40.390 bolstering of local farmers to grow organic food 00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:43.009 locally, putting PE programs back in schools, 00:26:43.109 --> 00:26:45.210 real food in schools, getting the soda machines 00:26:45.210 --> 00:26:49.910 out, pedestrianizing downtowns. You could make 00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:53.640 such a huge dent. And then there is the money 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:55.980 for all the other things. Because if you're bleeding 00:26:55.980 --> 00:26:59.660 money on sick people, then the inverse is also 00:26:59.660 --> 00:27:01.880 true. So if you've got a healthy population, 00:27:02.220 --> 00:27:04.680 you've got lots of beds, lots of doctors, lots 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.039 of nurses for everyone that needs help at that 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:09.819 time, whether it's a pregnant woman about to 00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:11.700 give birth, whether it's an elderly person in 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:14.099 palliative care, whether it's someone who is 00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:16.660 young when they're fighting cancer. But, you 00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:18.920 know, at this point now, we're drowning. And 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.079 even with the time. We're talking to Todd. I'm 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:24.940 like, well, imagine this. If you said a doctor 00:27:24.940 --> 00:27:28.700 can have 30 minutes, how many 15 minute sessions 00:27:28.700 --> 00:27:30.819 will that save you down the road? Because you're 00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:33.859 actually starting to proactively address issues. 00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:37.519 So it's a complete false economy looking at it 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.819 so short sightedly that just come in, we'll give 00:27:39.819 --> 00:27:41.799 you a pill and then leave. I'll see you in six 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.119 months. Yeah, I mean, it's and it's actually 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.259 like it's pretty tragic, too. I think, you know, 00:27:48.259 --> 00:27:50.980 one thing that I think about is even, you know, 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.759 there now what you'll see is we kind of talk 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.079 about like being extremes. You can see extremes 00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:59.240 on the other end, too, because it's clearly this 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.740 is such a disastrous moment. I think a lot of 00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:04.099 people that I talk to nowadays, I'll ask them, 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:05.559 you know, you're supposed to be taking these 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:07.059 blood pressure pills. You're supposed to be taking 00:28:07.059 --> 00:28:09.940 these diabetes medicines. And they'll sell me 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:11.599 something, especially from my community here. 00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:13.140 They'll say like, well, I just don't want to, 00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:14.599 I don't want to take medicines. I don't want 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:16.819 to keep taking medicines. And it's because they're 00:28:16.819 --> 00:28:19.400 hearing like medicine, you know, medicines, pharmaceutical 00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.200 companies, you know, that all that stuff is bad 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.160 for you, bad for you. And then you'll find them 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:27.880 like taking this wonder pill that they saw on 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.240 Amazon after they saw a TikTok thing. And you 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.299 say, what is even in this? And they can't even 00:28:32.299 --> 00:28:34.279 tell you that. And I think it goes back to the 00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:36.539 essence of the problem. And that is that we're 00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:39.279 just not practicing this correctly. And I think 00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:43.640 you gain sort of the trust of folks, the credibility 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:47.660 when you are earnestly like looking at somebody 00:28:47.660 --> 00:28:49.940 and actually trying to make a difference in their 00:28:49.940 --> 00:28:52.720 lives as opposed to saying, oh, one plus two 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.079 is three. So that means you should be getting, 00:28:55.220 --> 00:28:56.880 you know, whatever this is. You know, you're 00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.799 just looking at numbers. You're not looking at 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.519 the person in front of you. And I feel like people 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.220 pick up on that pretty quickly. You know, blood 00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:05.519 pressure, your blood pressure will be raised 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:07.960 for a good part of your life and you won't feel 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.019 it. Um, it will not have any symptoms, but we 00:29:11.019 --> 00:29:14.240 know how dangerous that this can be. And so if 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:15.880 I'm sitting there with a patient in front of 00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.220 me and the first time, the first time we try 00:29:18.220 --> 00:29:19.759 to address their blood pressure, it's basically 00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.660 me saying, I'm going to start you on this, this 00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:24.859 pill that you're going to be taking for the rest 00:29:24.859 --> 00:29:28.099 of your life. How can I expect them to just buy 00:29:28.099 --> 00:29:30.960 into how I want to work on their health from 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.420 in other aspects? Why not? We talk about, Hey, 00:29:33.460 --> 00:29:36.579 can you take an opportunity to walk? 30 minutes 00:29:36.579 --> 00:29:39.180 a day, three times a week. And can you check 00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:41.359 your blood pressure at home and look at what 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:42.880 you're eating? Think about what you're eating 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:45.380 and try to cut out these things at this time. 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:49.220 That plan, somebody will say, okay, this person 00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:51.960 is not just resorting to, I want to write you 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.039 amlodipine or hydrochlorothiazide or whatever 00:29:54.039 --> 00:29:56.680 the medicine is. This person is interested actually 00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.220 in preventative care and preventing me from having 00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:01.180 some sort of stroke or heart attack and not, 00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:03.640 and I hate to kind of bring this in, but this 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:06.970 is a reality. And not that if they miss something 00:30:06.970 --> 00:30:08.930 and they don't write the right medicine, then 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:11.250 I'll hire a lawyer and I'll sue them. Because 00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:14.349 I think that's all a byproduct of the same issue 00:30:14.349 --> 00:30:16.950 here. It's like you've created a system where 00:30:16.950 --> 00:30:18.970 it's like we always want to blame somebody and 00:30:18.970 --> 00:30:20.690 then you want to squeeze them for as much money 00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:23.069 as possible. So that person is not practicing 00:30:23.069 --> 00:30:26.579 in a way that they should be practicing. you 00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:28.140 know, they're not doing it. They're, they're 00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:30.039 all, they're doing it. We call it scared medicine 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:31.519 is what we'll call it, but you know, they're 00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.900 practicing this thing where it's kind of like, 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:34.319 Hey, I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:35.880 be doing. I'm throwing all this stuff at you 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.819 and I'm writing it down so that you don't come 00:30:37.819 --> 00:30:39.940 back and blame me when you do have a stroke, 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.980 because we never addressed the fact that you're 00:30:41.980 --> 00:30:45.680 eating fried processed food all the time, three 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.539 times a day for 20 years, you know? So I think, 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:50.619 you know, I think these are all, you know, you 00:30:50.619 --> 00:30:52.279 can just see sort of the side effects of how 00:30:52.670 --> 00:30:56.150 horrible things uh will continue to deteriorate 00:30:56.150 --> 00:30:58.549 this is not we're not sort of addressing any 00:30:58.549 --> 00:31:01.069 real issue we're just continuing to shovel it 00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:04.230 further down the road you had said the word trust 00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:07.390 i think that's a big part where especially as 00:31:07.390 --> 00:31:10.690 we let's say today, you know, whoever the person 00:31:10.690 --> 00:31:12.670 is that stands on the podium and says, we're 00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:14.809 going to change the nation's health. You know, 00:31:14.849 --> 00:31:16.309 we're going to start, you know, make America 00:31:16.309 --> 00:31:17.809 healthy again. I think I heard that about a year 00:31:17.809 --> 00:31:19.589 ago, but I heard fuck all about it ever since. 00:31:19.690 --> 00:31:23.509 But anyway, I digress. You know, they were going 00:31:23.509 --> 00:31:25.029 to do that. But there's still obviously be a 00:31:25.029 --> 00:31:27.750 large need for pharmaceuticals for a long time 00:31:27.750 --> 00:31:29.910 until we got to the kind of Scandinavian level 00:31:29.910 --> 00:31:32.130 where most of the population is very healthy. 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:35.059 But where there isn't a conversation with these 00:31:35.059 --> 00:31:37.900 drugs is, as you alluded to, we'll put you on 00:31:37.900 --> 00:31:40.440 hypertension meds because you're walking around 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:43.140 at 120 over 190. That's not very healthy. You 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:44.920 might stroke out at any moment. So we need to 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:47.839 get that down. But the goal is to get you off 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:50.490 these pills. So let's get your, you know, let's 00:31:50.490 --> 00:31:52.549 work on, you know, your, your nutrition and your 00:31:52.549 --> 00:31:54.390 exercise levels, because we want to take you 00:31:54.390 --> 00:31:56.130 off. Same with the mental health ones. If you 00:31:56.130 --> 00:31:59.190 absolutely need some sort of antidepressant or 00:31:59.190 --> 00:32:01.109 whatever, you know, version it is. All right, 00:32:01.109 --> 00:32:02.650 well then let's get you to a point where you 00:32:02.650 --> 00:32:04.730 can sit through some counseling sessions, but 00:32:04.730 --> 00:32:06.789 let's try and work to get you off these pills. 00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:09.109 But you don't see that. As you said, you're literally, 00:32:09.170 --> 00:32:11.769 and I've heard firefighters, middle -aged healthy 00:32:11.769 --> 00:32:13.890 firefighters say, well, I'm going to be on statins 00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:16.380 forever. My doctor told me. I was like, well, 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.220 and that's it. That's that you just took that 00:32:18.220 --> 00:32:22.640 as gospel. So, so yeah, yeah. I think, you know, 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.279 that, that conversation too is not demonizing 00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.119 all the drugs, but the way that they're used. 00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:30.380 And I had a Swedish psychiatrist and he said 00:32:30.380 --> 00:32:32.660 that they don't let their patients stay on anything 00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:35.779 longer than six months. Well, I mean, over here 00:32:35.779 --> 00:32:39.460 at a zero to that, at least. Yeah. Yeah. No, 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:41.140 I mean, I think, you know, I think, and it goes 00:32:41.140 --> 00:32:44.500 back to, you know, when it comes to healthcare, 00:32:45.740 --> 00:32:48.539 There is a lot of science behind it, but there's 00:32:48.539 --> 00:32:51.039 a lot of art. And I think we're neglecting the 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:54.319 art part about this because you cannot paint 00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:57.819 with a wide brush for every single person who 00:32:57.819 --> 00:33:01.200 comes in with diabetes and depression. Every 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.759 single person has their own unique set of circumstances, 00:33:03.980 --> 00:33:07.000 their own unique biology, their DNA. And so it's 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:09.519 a balancing act of figuring out what's going 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:14.660 to work for them. father and his grandfather 00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:16.619 and your great -grandfather and your great -great 00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:18.960 -grandfather all have gotten type 2 diabetes, 00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.400 you know, very early on. And all of you are overweight 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.559 with a BMI of 35. And, you know, you've got some 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:27.680 bad genes there. And so, you know, you just sort 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.200 of address it thinking that it's going to be 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.480 okay taking insulin and making sure your sugar 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.319 is under a level. It's not going to work. Something 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:38.619 has got to drastically change, and it's my job 00:33:38.619 --> 00:33:40.880 to be able to communicate that to you and to 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.960 say it in a way that you understand and to work 00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:47.220 with you on that. I think we're just not doing 00:33:47.220 --> 00:33:50.160 a good job. I think it has to start very early. 00:33:50.779 --> 00:33:53.119 It starts in the schools. It starts in educating 00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.700 our children just about wellness and health and, 00:33:56.700 --> 00:33:59.220 you know, everything, whether it's mental health 00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:01.680 or physical health. I mean, we've got to do a 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:03.700 better job. We've got to make people more informed. 00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.059 And I feel it in the emergency department all 00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:07.819 the time. If I know I've got six people waiting 00:34:07.819 --> 00:34:09.820 for me, some guy chopped his finger off. This 00:34:09.820 --> 00:34:11.480 other person fell off of a skateboard and his 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.820 ankle is facing the other way. You know, I know 00:34:13.820 --> 00:34:16.719 that I've got such a limited time. I can't spend 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.099 those three minutes telling somebody that. their 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:23.000 smoking is killing them. You know, I can't like, 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:25.719 and they can tell also that I've got one foot 00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:27.420 out the door because I've got so many people 00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:29.460 that I've got to kind of address, right? And 00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:33.179 so it's, you know, that interaction has so much 00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:35.699 potential and we're just kind of leaving it at 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:37.880 zero. And I think there's ways that we can sort 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.699 of address that, especially if, you know, especially 00:34:40.699 --> 00:34:42.480 if we're starting early and we're starting in 00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:44.739 the schools and it's a part of, you know, it's 00:34:44.739 --> 00:34:47.349 not just a part of medical education. or nursing 00:34:47.349 --> 00:34:50.730 school or for first responders or EMS where, 00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:52.269 hey, we're going to teach you about nutrition. 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:55.369 It's also a part of, you know, the primary school 00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:56.889 teachers, you know, somebody who's teaching second 00:34:56.889 --> 00:34:59.329 grade. She's able to kind of teach her kids a 00:34:59.329 --> 00:35:01.030 little bit about nutrition. You know, it's just 00:35:01.030 --> 00:35:02.769 like a part of the curriculum as you move forward. 00:35:02.809 --> 00:35:05.230 I promise you in a generation or two generations, 00:35:05.409 --> 00:35:06.650 we're going to see a very different America. 00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:09.789 Absolutely. Quick side note. Did you watch The 00:35:09.789 --> 00:35:13.710 Pit? You know what? I watched two episodes and 00:35:13.710 --> 00:35:17.480 I had to stop because of how... legit of a show 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.380 that is. I felt like I was on shift, like the 00:35:20.380 --> 00:35:23.280 same stresses. I mean, it's so good. I was so 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.420 shocked by that, to be honest with you. Like 00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:29.679 that was great. Have you watched the full season? 00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:31.260 I have, so I won't give anything away, but I 00:35:31.260 --> 00:35:33.360 know they're already, it was so successful that 00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.000 they're already shooting a second one, which 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:36.860 I think is going to be out in January. But that 00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:39.280 was, well, I remember one of the comments I saw 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:41.940 when they first posted about it is, I'm a physician 00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:44.920 and I kept waiting for them to mess it up. you 00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:47.480 know, to be so wrong on the technical direction. 00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:49.539 And they said, and I ended up watching the whole 00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:52.239 thing. So I agree completely. I mean, even what 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.400 I thought they did a great job of is also they 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:57.320 showed sort of hospital administration and their 00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.800 role in the emergency department. They show you 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:03.239 kind of like the interaction of like how somebody 00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.099 gets to the ER and what happens. And I mean, 00:36:06.099 --> 00:36:08.780 like the dynamic with pediatric patients and 00:36:08.780 --> 00:36:11.159 parents. I mean, I just thought it was incredible. 00:36:11.769 --> 00:36:13.530 And it really made me, I was like, wait, I can't, 00:36:13.530 --> 00:36:15.309 I'm supposed to be off. I'm not going to be back 00:36:15.309 --> 00:36:17.989 on shift. So it was really good. Yeah. Firstly, 00:36:18.050 --> 00:36:21.070 I was really pleased that they showed the woeful, 00:36:21.130 --> 00:36:24.349 you know, overcrowding within the hospital. Because 00:36:24.349 --> 00:36:27.610 when COVID hit, you had all those dickhead journalists 00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:29.570 out there being like, well, I'm in the hospital. 00:36:29.690 --> 00:36:31.989 And there's even people waiting in the hallways. 00:36:32.010 --> 00:36:34.110 Have you never been to an inner city hospital? 00:36:34.210 --> 00:36:36.170 There's always people waiting in the hallways. 00:36:36.269 --> 00:36:39.280 This is the problem. Um, the other thing is I'm 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:41.579 actually turning my most recent book into a TV 00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:44.480 show. And, uh, I love the fact that the pit was 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:46.179 so successful. I think it was the most successful 00:36:46.179 --> 00:36:48.659 show this year, if I'm not mistaken, because 00:36:48.659 --> 00:36:51.679 what it will do, and it's not just modern day 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:53.659 firefighters as like a multi -generational trauma 00:36:53.659 --> 00:36:55.940 story, but it will show, well, who are these 00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:57.760 people that bring these patients in? Because, 00:36:57.820 --> 00:36:59.880 you know, that's another entire story that we're 00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.519 just not well represented, you know, the on television 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:04.380 and film, they haven't done a good job of telling 00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:07.880 the firefighter paramedic story at all. Oh. Yeah, 00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:10.579 literally. I mean, I know there was Chicago Fire, 00:37:10.659 --> 00:37:12.039 but I don't know if you watched that at all. 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:18.539 That was more of a drama about relationships 00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:20.780 more than it was about the actual work, you know, 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:22.519 and like what happens and how that takes a toll 00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.519 on you as a person and on your family. So, yeah, 00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:28.119 you're right. Totally. One last thing, you know, 00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:32.280 I love. bringing in innovation to some of the 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.219 issues that we're struggling with at the moment. 00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:36.219 And for example, on the first responder side, 00:37:36.340 --> 00:37:40.400 the integrated nurse navigation with the 911 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:43.400 system, I think is genius. We have a lot of non 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.820 -emergent calls. I know that we tell everyone 00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:49.539 to call 911 for everything now. So to have a 00:37:49.539 --> 00:37:52.219 three -tier system and be able to offload the 00:37:52.219 --> 00:37:56.539 non -emergent calls to urgent care clinics. Optical 00:37:56.539 --> 00:37:59.179 and dental offices and all those kind of things 00:37:59.179 --> 00:38:01.900 I think is amazing. I just had a guest, Josh 00:38:01.900 --> 00:38:05.579 Clemente, back on the show. And he's got an AI 00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:11.260 company, AI and blood tests and glucose testing, 00:38:11.380 --> 00:38:13.679 continuous glucose testing. And the whole point 00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.179 is to really have a proactive health model. And 00:38:16.179 --> 00:38:18.139 he made an interesting comment. He said, doctors 00:38:18.139 --> 00:38:20.280 are not supposed to be treating chronic disease. 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.519 They're supposed to be there for the childbirths 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.780 and the traumas and all these things. And there's 00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:29.260 so much now with this technology that can help 00:38:29.260 --> 00:38:32.699 people, you know, somewhat monitor their own 00:38:32.699 --> 00:38:34.460 health, you know, as far as their blood work. 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.260 And so I thought that was a really interesting, 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:41.800 you know, AI innovation on the horizon. Not that 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:44.340 it's replacing doctors by any means, but not 00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:46.500 waiting a full year and going, oh, my God, my 00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:48.699 blood work is terrible or my glucose is through 00:38:48.699 --> 00:38:50.800 the roof or whatever it is, but actually the 00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.840 patient being empowered to actually start. being 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:57.059 in control of their own health. Yeah. I mean, 00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.659 I think that's the key. I mean, I think you get 00:38:59.659 --> 00:39:03.300 better outcomes. I mean, I think from a... like 00:39:03.300 --> 00:39:06.340 a healthcare perspective, it's always about making 00:39:06.340 --> 00:39:09.260 sure that an individual has, that you're able 00:39:09.260 --> 00:39:11.480 to protect their ability to be independent, their 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:13.880 ability to be informed. And, you know, the word 00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:15.800 you used was empowered. I think that's perfect. 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.659 You know, even if it's like a, you know, somebody 00:39:18.659 --> 00:39:20.800 who has some sort of traumatic injury or something 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.460 that takes place where they may not, you know, 00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:26.199 they have reduced functionality, you want to 00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:28.340 improve the function so that they can be independent. 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.329 And so I think. These models, as long as they 00:39:31.329 --> 00:39:36.050 can bring it back to someone who feels that they 00:39:36.050 --> 00:39:38.650 are, that the awareness is there and that they're 00:39:38.650 --> 00:39:41.030 informed and that they're able to make decisions 00:39:41.030 --> 00:39:43.889 with all of the information as opposed to just 00:39:43.889 --> 00:39:46.369 being dependent on another human being, like 00:39:46.369 --> 00:39:48.550 on their doctor to tell them what to do. I mean, 00:39:48.570 --> 00:39:51.360 how many times have you heard somebody say? Or 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:53.500 what do you think is best? You know, I think 00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:58.019 that's a tough question. I think, you know, for 00:39:58.019 --> 00:39:59.559 physicians, we'll hear that all the time. It's 00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:00.820 like, well, what do you recommend, doctor? Should 00:40:00.820 --> 00:40:02.900 I do the surgery or should I do the treatment? 00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:06.500 I think the more that we're able to give people 00:40:06.500 --> 00:40:09.300 the tools that they need to feel like they are 00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:11.460 totally aware of what's happening, you know, 00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:14.179 in their bodies, what's happening, you know, 00:40:14.179 --> 00:40:16.559 their metrics with how they're moving along in 00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.519 life with their health. I think it's going to 00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:21.820 be awesome. I hope it radicalizes the field. 00:40:21.940 --> 00:40:23.719 I mean, we're using it on the other side. We 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.880 use AI to help document our conversations now. 00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:29.159 Like we have, you know, we're able to have a 00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:31.300 conversation with the patient. It's able to catch 00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:33.500 up on things that you would forget as you're 00:40:33.500 --> 00:40:35.599 heading back to your computer to write down. 00:40:35.619 --> 00:40:37.480 Like, wait, when did they say was the last time 00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:39.340 they ate something? Or, you know, did they say 00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:41.840 they took their medicine today? Like it's able 00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:43.900 to hear all of that. It's able to synthesize 00:40:43.900 --> 00:40:46.800 it. It's able to also kind of spit back out at 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:48.159 you. Like, here's some of the things that you 00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:50.559 should think about. Which is, I think overall, 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.099 if this is something that can help folks feel 00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:56.239 like they have a better grasp of what's happening 00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.539 to them, and they don't feel lost, and they don't 00:40:58.539 --> 00:41:00.159 feel like they're being dictated to, and they 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.440 don't feel like they have to be dependent on 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:04.619 someone else, I think it's going to be hopefully 00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:08.119 a good thing. If I was still in, I would hope 00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:10.679 that it would also help you fill in all the pertinent 00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:12.860 negatives, because I used to hate that. They 00:41:12.860 --> 00:41:15.139 scaremongered in paramedic school, like if you 00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:18.260 don't write a thesis. then some lawyers and I'm 00:41:18.260 --> 00:41:20.219 like, no, if, if, if I didn't write it down, 00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.440 all else was within normal limits. That means 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.179 everything else. But to be able to have that, 00:41:25.219 --> 00:41:26.719 you know, it's a rolled ankle. Like you said, 00:41:26.739 --> 00:41:28.619 you're not obviously taking breath sounds and 00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:29.579 you know, these other things, no, everything 00:41:29.579 --> 00:41:33.119 else was fine. We looked at the injury. And do 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.239 you know what that's caused? I mean, that means 00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:37.460 nobody reads anybody's notes. I'm not looking 00:41:37.460 --> 00:41:40.139 at the EMS sheet. The doctor who I admit to is 00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:41.860 not looking at my note. The nurse is not looking 00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:43.400 at the nurse that she's getting it handed off 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:46.519 from because there's so much superfluous information 00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:48.719 that's just regimented that you've got to write 00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:50.699 down. I can't, you know, I'm not going to scroll 00:41:50.699 --> 00:41:52.760 through three pages of things where I'm trying 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:54.360 to figure out, you know, somebody in front of 00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:56.440 me who's yelling in pain. So, you know, I think 00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:58.929 it's produced a negative effect. you know, this 00:41:58.929 --> 00:42:00.650 idea of like having to go through and hopefully 00:42:00.650 --> 00:42:03.869 AI can fix the over documentation that we see. 00:42:03.949 --> 00:42:05.869 I mean, there's a problem with over documentation. 00:42:05.909 --> 00:42:07.829 There's a problem with under documentation. And 00:42:07.829 --> 00:42:10.369 so you hope it can bridge that gap. I hope that 00:42:10.369 --> 00:42:11.849 that's something that, you know, will produce 00:42:11.849 --> 00:42:14.030 better care and better healthcare providers. 00:42:14.690 --> 00:42:17.489 Absolutely. Well, the last time that we spoke 00:42:17.489 --> 00:42:20.869 was April and now we'll kind of shift to, to 00:42:20.869 --> 00:42:25.900 Gaza. At that point, I think we, you know, we, 00:42:25.940 --> 00:42:29.880 you were just starting to see the, the kind of 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:31.780 ripple effect of starvation. Cause I think if 00:42:31.780 --> 00:42:34.179 I remember serves me right, you were talking 00:42:34.179 --> 00:42:36.400 about, you know, this was, it was a slow process 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.360 that as you're shutting it down, you know, it's 00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:39.920 not like people are just suddenly dropping like 00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:42.139 flies that there's, there's weeks and weeks before 00:42:42.139 --> 00:42:45.139 you see deaths from that. So kind of walk us 00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:48.239 through as far as, you know, that continuing, 00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:50.260 cause obviously that didn't suddenly stop after, 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.909 after our conversation. What is the impact even 00:42:53.909 --> 00:42:56.210 as we speak now? And then obviously we can get 00:42:56.210 --> 00:42:58.769 to the ceasefire and some other things. Yeah. 00:42:58.909 --> 00:43:01.750 I mean, I think there's a couple of things that 00:43:01.750 --> 00:43:03.630 I think are important to recognize here. First 00:43:03.630 --> 00:43:08.050 is that what was really frustrating is you saw 00:43:08.050 --> 00:43:11.230 world leaders, you saw different governments 00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:17.139 start to, you know, I think. recognize the concern 00:43:17.139 --> 00:43:20.340 surrounding the forced starvation that was being 00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:24.639 inflicted on the Palestinians in Gaza. This was 00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:28.360 a very intentional policy that was being implemented 00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:32.400 from October 2023. And exactly like you said, 00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:34.760 you don't get to famine. You don't get to severe 00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:37.179 acute malnutrition. You don't get to the point 00:43:37.179 --> 00:43:39.579 where children are starving to death. That doesn't 00:43:39.579 --> 00:43:41.860 happen in a couple of weeks. It doesn't happen 00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:45.460 in a month. It was a very strategic military 00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:48.719 policy being implemented by Israel, so much so 00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:52.000 that they were counting the tons of food they 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.000 were letting in. They were counting the calories 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:59.849 per Palestinian in Gaza. And so if you look at 00:43:59.849 --> 00:44:03.070 the World Food Program, you look at any UN agency, 00:44:03.309 --> 00:44:06.090 you look at Save the Children or Oxfam or any 00:44:06.090 --> 00:44:07.889 humanitarian organization that was on the ground 00:44:07.889 --> 00:44:10.969 in Gaza, they were warning about this from late 00:44:10.969 --> 00:44:14.690 2023, early 2024. And so what were we seeing 00:44:14.690 --> 00:44:18.690 on the ground? We were seeing 70 % of pregnant 00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:22.050 women were delivering premature babies with complications. 00:44:22.530 --> 00:44:26.659 We are talking about... Every three out of four 00:44:26.659 --> 00:44:29.739 pregnancies where the kid is coming early, that's 00:44:29.739 --> 00:44:33.739 already a nightmare. But it's occurring in the 00:44:33.739 --> 00:44:37.760 environment of American fighter jets with Israeli 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.860 pilots dropping American bombs with no fuel, 00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:44.699 with the access to care being cut off or limited 00:44:44.699 --> 00:44:47.119 because the presence of the Israeli military 00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:50.360 is beginning an offensive in this city in Gaza. 00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:54.820 And so we were putting. vulnerable people like 00:44:54.820 --> 00:44:58.159 pregnant women, breastfeeding women, children 00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:00.159 between the ages of six months and five years 00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.500 old, people with diabetes or high blood pressure, 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:04.800 elderly folks, people who have been injured earlier 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:10.300 in this aggression. We were seeing them start 00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:13.559 to show these kind of signs of starvation. And 00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:16.199 you're looking at kids whose growth are stunted, 00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:18.780 whose immune systems are weakened. And so they're 00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:22.239 getting infected with the cold or some stomach 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:24.440 bug, and it's taking forever for them to recover 00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:28.619 from that. You're seeing developmental delays. 00:45:28.980 --> 00:45:34.119 You're seeing children who are being held out 00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:37.239 of school for this entire time period. but i 00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:39.760 go back to what my frustration was is this didn't 00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:42.420 happen in a vacuum but suddenly you've got world 00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:45.320 leaders speaking out and saying the hunger in 00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:47.599 gaza is unacceptable and we have to get food 00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:49.860 we have to get food we have to get food you know 00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:51.760 and it goes back to the earlier part of our conversation 00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:55.239 you're not addressing the root cause of this 00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:58.139 problem there is a suffocating siege on the gaza 00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.800 strip and there is a military that's operating 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:02.940 in a way that's trying to make sure life is not 00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:06.659 sustainable Who cares if I bring in food for 00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:08.920 three consecutive days and somebody is able to 00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:11.019 get three square meals if I'm just going to cut 00:46:11.019 --> 00:46:14.659 off that food a week later? This is not rocket 00:46:14.659 --> 00:46:17.840 science. The child who was dealing with all of 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:21.239 the issues of malnutrition, if I just feed them 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:23.679 for a few days, I have not addressed the problem 00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:26.139 if they're going to go back to being hungry the 00:46:26.139 --> 00:46:28.440 following week. They are still going to be at 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:32.679 risk of death and complication. And we still 00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:37.179 saw... the hospitals in Gaza be targeted. We 00:46:37.179 --> 00:46:39.679 saw the doctors continue to be abducted, the 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:43.159 nurses and the first responders be killed or 00:46:43.159 --> 00:46:47.980 abducted or wounded. And so you got to look at 00:46:47.980 --> 00:46:55.300 it 360 degrees. The international body that declares 00:46:55.300 --> 00:46:57.980 famine in all of these different areas across 00:46:57.980 --> 00:47:02.380 the globe, they declared a famine in Gaza. They 00:47:02.380 --> 00:47:05.760 said there are – they said this in July where 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.539 they were like – they released this report. And 00:47:08.539 --> 00:47:11.219 the response from the Israelis was this report 00:47:11.219 --> 00:47:13.599 is garbage. It's political or whatever it is. 00:47:13.659 --> 00:47:15.800 And the rest of the world was like there's got 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:17.199 to be food that enters. There's got to be food 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.719 that enters. This sort of report is supposed 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.920 to compel the international community to say 00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.539 – Everyone come together, tell the Israelis to 00:47:27.539 --> 00:47:30.139 open the borders and allow aid to enter. The 00:47:30.139 --> 00:47:32.500 Israelis are saying, well, if we allow aid to 00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:34.619 enter, some of the aid gets stolen. Who cares? 00:47:35.380 --> 00:47:37.739 Keep the aid running in. It does not matter at 00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:39.920 that point. Who cares if some of this aid is 00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:41.980 getting stolen? Who cares if it's being looted? 00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:44.420 The reason that it's being looted and stolen 00:47:44.420 --> 00:47:46.559 in the first place is because you have made it 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:50.400 such a rare. and valuable commodity that the 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:52.719 way to counter that is to just let a bunch of 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:57.519 bananas and apples and bread in and so we were 00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.679 putting these people in gaza in this position 00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.639 where they were essentially starving and that 00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.760 the local markets had increased the prices by 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:08.039 five six seven fold nobody's working anymore 00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:09.960 because the whole place is being leveled to the 00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:12.960 ground and The other thing that I don't think 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:14.860 people have had a chance to think about is the 00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:17.320 lack of exposure to different food groups of 00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:19.360 the population. I mean, we're talking about kids 00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:21.760 for two years did not have any animal protein 00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:25.059 whatsoever. You know, you are talking about them 00:48:25.059 --> 00:48:28.199 getting some bread and every once in a while 00:48:28.199 --> 00:48:30.480 they're getting a can of beans or some other 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:34.119 canned foods. I mean, this is, you know, this 00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:38.079 is beyond them being starved, which is an assault. 00:48:38.750 --> 00:48:41.590 against the against the human body they're also 00:48:41.590 --> 00:48:44.110 you know sitting there not being exposed to all 00:48:44.110 --> 00:48:46.829 of these different nutritious food groups and 00:48:46.829 --> 00:48:49.769 different you know uh items and it's just uh 00:48:49.769 --> 00:48:52.730 this this cruelty that was that continued to 00:48:52.730 --> 00:48:56.230 surge and people were just talking about let's 00:48:56.230 --> 00:48:58.050 let we get more food has to come and we want 00:48:58.050 --> 00:49:00.090 to see more food come in well you're not really 00:49:00.090 --> 00:49:01.650 you're not going to really address this issue 00:49:01.650 --> 00:49:03.449 you're not going to address this problem and 00:49:03.449 --> 00:49:06.030 i think um The last thing I'll say about that 00:49:06.030 --> 00:49:08.909 is, you know, the things were getting so intense 00:49:08.909 --> 00:49:12.969 in Gaza. We were seeing more than 100 people 00:49:12.969 --> 00:49:16.349 every single day be killed in some sort of bombing 00:49:16.349 --> 00:49:18.889 or some attack or some tank shelling. And we 00:49:18.889 --> 00:49:20.809 were seeing all of these kids that were being 00:49:20.809 --> 00:49:25.300 born in. so prematurely, they were stuck in the 00:49:25.300 --> 00:49:27.000 hospitals that were still partially functioning. 00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:29.579 And we're seeing families continue to get displaced. 00:49:29.900 --> 00:49:33.159 So they're moving from in this ever shrinking 00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:35.860 area where the Gaza Strip keeps getting smaller, 00:49:35.980 --> 00:49:38.280 because the Israeli military footprint keeps 00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:40.179 getting larger and expanding its operations. 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.300 And so, you know, smaller areas overcrowded, 00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:45.440 you know, families on top of each other in these 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.019 areas very close to the Mediterranean Sea. And 00:49:49.019 --> 00:49:52.440 you there was no end in sight. I mean, there 00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.719 was nothing that was changing with respect to 00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:01.619 access. I have been rejected in March 13th, June 00:50:01.619 --> 00:50:06.519 19th, and most recently, October 9th. And I am 00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:08.860 not unique by any means. 50 % of international 00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:11.960 humanitarians who are trying to enter into Gaza 00:50:11.960 --> 00:50:14.179 over this time period, the last six months where 00:50:14.179 --> 00:50:16.219 everything was collapsing, were being rejected 00:50:16.219 --> 00:50:18.019 by the Israelis. We're talking about Americans, 00:50:18.139 --> 00:50:21.059 Brits, Europeans. We're getting rejected for 00:50:21.059 --> 00:50:23.780 no reason. At the same time, you're watching 00:50:23.780 --> 00:50:26.719 physicians like myself. I'm flying to Jordan 00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:29.800 trying to get in. And in my bags, I'm trying 00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:31.920 to smuggle baby formula and specialized baby 00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.139 formula. And when I'm getting rejected, that 00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:36.400 baby formula is not entering, of course. And 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:40.760 it's not like it's any sort of impactful contribution, 00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:43.119 right? It's only just I'm coming in. I'm going 00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:44.639 to I can get you a couple of bottles of baby 00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:46.719 formula here and maybe we'll be good for a week 00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:50.179 for the six kids. that are in this neonatal intensive 00:50:50.179 --> 00:50:54.539 care unit. And we're not able to get folks out 00:50:54.539 --> 00:50:57.440 of Gaza either, for example, who needed somebody 00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.480 who has, I know there's a girl right now in Gaza, 00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:03.039 her name is Mariam. She's struggling with a severe 00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:05.519 gluten allergy. And so the flour that you're 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:07.300 bringing in that keeps coming in through the 00:51:07.300 --> 00:51:09.900 aid, it doesn't do anything for her. It has the 00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:12.239 gluten in it and she's sitting there losing weight. 00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:14.840 We're watching her become skin and bones, just 00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:18.880 agonizing, agonizing. days and weeks of her life. 00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:21.659 And so nothing changed, right? Like the Israelis 00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:23.440 are still very much in control of allowing things 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:25.559 to enter and it's not enough. People are not 00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:27.719 able to exit because there's a suffocating siege. 00:51:27.820 --> 00:51:29.739 And then the international community has been 00:51:29.739 --> 00:51:32.480 crippled in a way that's not able to mount an 00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:34.960 effective emergency response. I can't get food 00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:36.860 in. I can't get doctors in. I can't get nurses 00:51:36.860 --> 00:51:40.039 in. I can't get humanitarians in. And I sure 00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:42.320 as hell can't get any sort of fuel, clean water 00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.300 or proper tents in either. Total catastrophic 00:51:45.300 --> 00:51:48.719 disaster where all aspects of life were being 00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:52.659 attacked. I was so proud to see the Irish step 00:51:52.659 --> 00:51:54.860 up so, so early. And we talked about this. I 00:51:54.860 --> 00:51:57.219 mean, my analogy of what happened in Gaza is, 00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:00.099 you know, when I was young, the IRA were bombing 00:52:00.099 --> 00:52:02.579 the mainland and it was an occupation. Like, 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:04.739 you know, the British were in Northern Ireland 00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:07.699 and, you know, I... I don't care how long it's 00:52:07.699 --> 00:52:10.320 been. To me, the answer is to let Ireland be 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:12.400 its own country. That's my personal opinion. 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.980 I don't understand why we need to occupy that, 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.280 but at the same time, have a great relationship 00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.179 because we're two tiny rocks in the middle of 00:52:19.179 --> 00:52:22.199 the ocean, have some sort of overarching name 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:25.039 for all four of us together working collaboratively, 00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:27.539 but everyone having their own. But back then, 00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:30.039 I grew up next to, I probably told you this in 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:33.119 one of the other ones, next to an MOD base. military 00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.340 base so i literally when i was young we were 00:52:35.340 --> 00:52:37.360 sweeping the car for bombs before i went to school 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:42.139 so felt that but it would be like that one of 00:52:42.139 --> 00:52:43.619 the mainland bombings which happened all the 00:52:43.619 --> 00:52:45.420 time shopping centers you know women children 00:52:45.420 --> 00:52:49.320 that then we go in the british and basically 00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:53.000 destroy the entire city of belfast The world 00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:56.039 would not have tolerated that. Not at all. And 00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.639 so, you know, the Irish people collectively have 00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:01.039 been one of the earliest voices and then the 00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:04.760 South Africans as well. But, you know, I've been 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.179 so disgusted, obviously, with the States, and 00:53:07.179 --> 00:53:08.900 we'll get into that in a minute. But even the 00:53:08.900 --> 00:53:12.300 UK, like until very, very recently, they were 00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:16.019 really no different than the US. Yeah. I mean, 00:53:16.059 --> 00:53:18.159 I think I've had a lot of engagement on this. 00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:21.579 on this issue with many different countries, 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:24.099 especially the Europeans. I mean, the European 00:53:24.099 --> 00:53:26.800 Union is by far the largest trade partner for 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:28.880 the state of Israel. And so you know that there's 00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:31.179 an opportunity there to apply some pressure and 00:53:31.179 --> 00:53:33.900 to improve conditions by leveraging that very 00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:39.099 special relationship. The UK has its paws all 00:53:39.099 --> 00:53:44.119 over the situation in Palestine. And one thing 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:49.070 I'll say too is, I think David Lammy, announced 00:53:49.070 --> 00:53:51.829 at the UN that he was going to recognize the 00:53:51.829 --> 00:53:54.050 state of Palestine. He got this massive applause. 00:53:54.530 --> 00:53:57.789 And then there was sort of a delay. And he said, 00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:01.769 if the Israelis don't do, you know, XYZ. And 00:54:01.769 --> 00:54:03.849 so, you know, for me, it was like this hedging 00:54:03.849 --> 00:54:05.409 of bets where you really know that there are 00:54:05.409 --> 00:54:08.210 countries that need to step up and use their 00:54:08.210 --> 00:54:11.409 relationship in a way that kind of alleviates 00:54:11.409 --> 00:54:13.889 this absolute catastrophe that's taking place. 00:54:15.210 --> 00:54:17.590 The British, one thing I'll say about them too, 00:54:17.730 --> 00:54:19.909 and I don't think people realize just how entangled 00:54:19.909 --> 00:54:22.590 all these countries are. Again, the European 00:54:22.590 --> 00:54:25.309 Union, so all of these European states, they 00:54:25.309 --> 00:54:27.550 are the largest trade partner with Israel by 00:54:27.550 --> 00:54:32.210 far. The Israeli economy depends on the Europeans, 00:54:32.269 --> 00:54:36.420 for sure. The British... Their spy planes were 00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:40.019 instrumental for the Israeli campaign against 00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:42.500 Palestinians in Gaza over the last two years. 00:54:42.579 --> 00:54:45.460 This genocide is not possible without British 00:54:45.460 --> 00:54:47.800 intelligence, without British surveillance. It 00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:50.019 doesn't happen. Also without, of course, British 00:54:50.019 --> 00:54:53.260 political cover. And then same with comes to 00:54:53.260 --> 00:54:55.539 the Germans. They are the second largest arms 00:54:55.539 --> 00:54:58.860 supplier. of the israelis where america is of 00:54:58.860 --> 00:55:01.679 course number one the australians are providing 00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:05.639 parts for their fighter jets even the irish were 00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:09.679 you know helping with the transfer of weapons 00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:13.920 but i do want to say i think the irish and then 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.400 spain in terms of the europeans took the most 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:21.599 uh I think, morally consistent approach in this 00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:24.599 entire thing, the entire time. The Irish, I think, 00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:26.559 have been very vocal. They've not been afraid 00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:30.320 to use rhetoric that at least centers the suffering 00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:32.239 of Palestinians. Oftentimes, you won't see that. 00:55:32.300 --> 00:55:34.280 People will try to eliminate the suffering of 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.739 people because it evokes very visceral responses. 00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:39.780 But the Irish were keen on sort of bringing that 00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:42.619 up. They were standing in solidarity, of course. 00:55:42.739 --> 00:55:44.739 And then they did things like... have children 00:55:44.739 --> 00:55:47.760 come to Ireland to get medical treatment, to 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:50.860 be evacuated there. They would always, I think, 00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:52.880 bring this up when it comes to the, you know, 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:57.039 with respect to the UN, try to focus on the plight 00:55:57.039 --> 00:55:58.659 of children. In fact, I spoke at one of their 00:55:58.659 --> 00:56:01.739 events at their mission to the UN in New York 00:56:01.739 --> 00:56:03.719 City, and it was about children, and they invited 00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:06.739 me to speak there. So I think that sort of moral 00:56:06.739 --> 00:56:09.099 consistency has been absent from a large part. 00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:14.219 of the Western world. You see Spain has, I think, 00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:17.159 also tried to take a more hardline tone, but 00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:20.280 you really need major countries like the US, 00:56:20.500 --> 00:56:23.760 UK, and Germany. To me, those three have still 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:26.679 been absent from really approaching it from a 00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:28.679 morally consistent position. I am watching the 00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.159 UK shift their position a lot. They're saying 00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:32.920 things and they're moving in the right direction, 00:56:33.039 --> 00:56:36.519 but the US... I think one of the major concerns, 00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:39.719 and I think this is something why you will see 00:56:39.719 --> 00:56:43.639 a vigorous defense of the Israelis. When it's 00:56:43.639 --> 00:56:45.679 all said and done, this will be referred to as 00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:48.880 a genocide. You are talking about... the International 00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:51.639 Court of Justice saying that there is a plausible 00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:54.260 genocide. Then you watched the International 00:56:54.260 --> 00:56:58.159 Criminal Court, the ICC issue arrest warrants 00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:02.119 for Benjamin Netanyahu, for Yoav Galant, his 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:04.860 defense minister at the time. You watched UN 00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:07.019 special rapporteurs who are independent that 00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:09.300 are not being paid for this compile. Hundreds 00:57:09.300 --> 00:57:11.500 of pages of reports saying that what the Israelis 00:57:11.500 --> 00:57:14.719 did in Gaza is a genocide. You watched the UN 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.019 Commission of Inquiry, which spent over a year 00:57:17.019 --> 00:57:19.460 getting testimonies, collect evidence, call it 00:57:19.460 --> 00:57:22.119 a genocide. You watched humanitarian organizations, 00:57:22.219 --> 00:57:25.360 which generally do not want to get involved in 00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:27.800 these legal terms, like Doctors Without Borders, 00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:31.480 MSF, call it a genocide. Human Rights Watch and 00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:34.219 Amnesty International called it a genocide. Israeli 00:57:34.219 --> 00:57:38.349 organizations, B'Tselem. And Physicians for Human 00:57:38.349 --> 00:57:42.090 Rights Israel called it a genocide. So why is 00:57:42.090 --> 00:57:47.190 the U .S. so vehemently opposed to any critique 00:57:47.190 --> 00:57:49.570 of Israel? You know, they refer to it in D .C. 00:57:49.610 --> 00:57:51.710 as they don't want to have any daylight between 00:57:51.710 --> 00:57:53.869 Israel and the United States, especially when 00:57:53.869 --> 00:57:56.489 it comes to their support. Why? What's the case 00:57:56.489 --> 00:58:00.590 here? One, it's the implication that if the Israelis 00:58:00.590 --> 00:58:03.090 are committing genocide, who helped them commit 00:58:03.090 --> 00:58:05.480 the genocide? And if we find that all of these 00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:07.380 weapons that we're sending are American weapons 00:58:07.380 --> 00:58:09.579 and the fighter jets are American fighter jets, 00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:12.440 it's really that that sort of accountability 00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:14.440 will also eventually come towards you. So I think 00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:16.719 there's some resistance there. But then the second 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:20.440 part of this, which is changing in this country 00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:22.820 because of people, not because of politicians 00:58:22.820 --> 00:58:27.199 or parties, but because of people, is there was 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:32.679 only one approach. to policy foreign policy in 00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:34.679 the middle east when it came to israel and that 00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:39.039 was unconditional support unconditional support 00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:41.480 always support anything they need say yes yes 00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.099 yes i think you're seeing a movement in this 00:58:44.099 --> 00:58:46.539 country on both the left and the right especially 00:58:46.539 --> 00:58:50.760 the more populist um the more populism seeps 00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.079 into our politics where people are like but why 00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:56.400 Why, you know, if you're an America first person, 00:58:56.480 --> 00:58:59.579 why are we sending in the last two and a half 00:58:59.579 --> 00:59:02.780 years, we've sent over 30 billion dollars there 00:59:02.780 --> 00:59:07.750 towards weapons. Why are we? taking part in the 00:59:07.750 --> 00:59:09.489 starving of children, if you're somebody who 00:59:09.489 --> 00:59:11.630 comes from a faith -based background, if you're 00:59:11.630 --> 00:59:13.769 on the left and you believe in progressive values, 00:59:13.989 --> 00:59:16.289 you can't be progressive except for Palestine. 00:59:16.570 --> 00:59:19.170 It doesn't make sense. And so I think you're 00:59:19.170 --> 00:59:21.230 noticing people are starting to ask those questions 00:59:21.230 --> 00:59:24.710 and get critical of it. And I'll tell you, as 00:59:24.710 --> 00:59:26.989 somebody who spent the last two years of their 00:59:26.989 --> 00:59:30.769 life traveling from capital to capital, talking 00:59:30.769 --> 00:59:32.550 to different international governments that have 00:59:32.550 --> 00:59:34.809 tried to bring attention on this, I see that 00:59:34.809 --> 00:59:40.119 happening globally. I think if there is no accountability 00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:41.860 at the end of the day, as we're in this very 00:59:41.860 --> 00:59:44.500 weird, precarious moment, if we're still not 00:59:44.500 --> 00:59:47.840 talking about, hey, some things happened here 00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:50.960 where we've got to have some sort of accountability. 00:59:51.849 --> 00:59:55.909 It bodes very poorly for everybody else, for 00:59:55.909 --> 00:59:59.050 the entire world. If we have allowed hospitals 00:59:59.050 --> 01:00:03.809 and first responders to just be gunned down as 01:00:03.809 --> 01:00:05.590 they're responding to a call, like we saw what 01:00:05.590 --> 01:00:08.170 happened with the Palestinian Red Crescent first 01:00:08.170 --> 01:00:10.570 responders, when they're responding to a call 01:00:10.570 --> 01:00:12.130 and they've got their ambulance and their fire 01:00:12.130 --> 01:00:15.070 truck sirens and lights on and they get gunned 01:00:15.070 --> 01:00:18.989 down, 15 of them, and nobody is held accountable 01:00:18.989 --> 01:00:21.809 for that? Not even the commander who said fire 01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:25.110 away. Or you see a six -year -old like Hind Rajab 01:00:25.110 --> 01:00:27.449 who's sitting in a car with her entire family 01:00:27.449 --> 01:00:30.329 dead around her and an Israeli tank 25 meters 01:00:30.329 --> 01:00:34.889 away that blasted 342 bullets into the car. And 01:00:34.889 --> 01:00:37.309 we hear her die over six hours. She's bleeding 01:00:37.309 --> 01:00:40.389 to death. And we send two ambulance drivers, 01:00:40.570 --> 01:00:43.210 Ahmed and Yusuf, to go and save her life. And 01:00:43.210 --> 01:00:45.869 they're 100 meters away on a pre -approved Google 01:00:45.869 --> 01:00:48.869 map. a route that they were given by the Israelis, 01:00:48.949 --> 01:00:50.869 and then a missile hits them and blows up their 01:00:50.869 --> 01:00:53.030 ambulance. Nobody's held accountable for either 01:00:53.030 --> 01:00:55.670 of those people perishing. So if that doesn't 01:00:55.670 --> 01:00:58.670 happen, and I don't have a lot of faith that 01:00:58.670 --> 01:01:01.190 it will based on the stances that these governments 01:01:01.190 --> 01:01:04.010 have taken over the last two years, then the 01:01:04.010 --> 01:01:06.250 next major conflict, whether it's in Europe, 01:01:06.389 --> 01:01:09.690 Africa, Asia, Latin America, wherever it is, 01:01:09.769 --> 01:01:14.230 will look similar, if not worse. And that's not 01:01:14.230 --> 01:01:16.090 a world that we want our children to grow up 01:01:16.090 --> 01:01:17.969 in. You know, that's where you're leading to, 01:01:18.030 --> 01:01:21.409 you know, the end of times apocalypse like pictures 01:01:21.409 --> 01:01:24.170 like we saw in Gaza. Well, what blows me away 01:01:24.170 --> 01:01:27.190 is it was two generations ago that Americans 01:01:27.190 --> 01:01:31.570 and British, you know, fought, I mean, so selflessly, 01:01:31.630 --> 01:01:33.989 so courageously for all the right reasons. Because 01:01:33.989 --> 01:01:36.090 I've always said, you know, there are wars. that 01:01:36.090 --> 01:01:39.090 are absolutely unavoidable. And they're very, 01:01:39.210 --> 01:01:41.210 very few and far between. And then you have all 01:01:41.210 --> 01:01:43.329 the other ones that, as we talked earlier about 01:01:43.329 --> 01:01:45.570 Vietnam, that we should never have gone to in 01:01:45.570 --> 01:01:47.190 the first place. And if you look even behind 01:01:47.190 --> 01:01:49.650 the scenes of that, it was more about trade ports 01:01:49.650 --> 01:01:52.190 and some of those things than it was ever about 01:01:52.190 --> 01:01:57.130 humanitarian. But I just can't imagine what that 01:01:57.130 --> 01:02:00.570 generation would think about this. And the fact 01:02:00.570 --> 01:02:03.349 that you have the audacity, not you, people have 01:02:03.349 --> 01:02:06.840 the audacity. to call opposition of what is going 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:10.940 on anti -Semitism when it's not saying, well, 01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:13.139 this is all Jewish people. It's not saying this 01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:15.900 is all Israeli people. It's saying those that 01:02:15.900 --> 01:02:17.780 are committing the atrocities. I don't think 01:02:17.780 --> 01:02:20.440 that every German was behind, you know, all the 01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:22.000 things that happened in their country or every 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:25.039 Austrian or every Italian, every Russian. I don't 01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:26.500 think every Russian wants to be in the Ukraine 01:02:26.500 --> 01:02:29.099 right now. You know, so this is the point is 01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:32.309 that right is right and wrong is wrong. And if 01:02:32.309 --> 01:02:34.530 you, as we have heard from the rhetoric in this 01:02:34.530 --> 01:02:37.469 country, the moment that someone stands up and 01:02:37.469 --> 01:02:40.010 says, hey, this is wrong, regardless of the backstory 01:02:40.010 --> 01:02:41.650 that you can say, well, they've been fighting 01:02:41.650 --> 01:02:43.489 for whatever. Yeah. But then if you go far enough 01:02:43.489 --> 01:02:45.829 back, look at how the British impacted that and 01:02:45.829 --> 01:02:48.250 all these other countries that have created this 01:02:48.250 --> 01:02:51.750 in the first place. But regardless of that, if 01:02:51.750 --> 01:02:54.389 the IRA bombed mainland Britain and we came in 01:02:54.389 --> 01:02:57.469 and bombed every single part of the city of Belfast, 01:02:57.550 --> 01:03:00.730 schools, hospitals, we gunned down first responders. 01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:04.420 how would the world respond? Very, very differently 01:03:04.420 --> 01:03:07.000 than we're seeing now. So it's up to us, the 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:09.900 people, to stand up and say, enough is enough. 01:03:10.059 --> 01:03:12.780 And if there's a tyrant at the helm of our ship, 01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:15.960 then what, are we a passenger? No. We are the 01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:19.159 reason this ship exists in the first place. That's 01:03:19.159 --> 01:03:22.219 right. Yeah. And I think it gets back to when 01:03:22.219 --> 01:03:24.539 you talk about accountability, that's how you 01:03:24.539 --> 01:03:28.880 are able to avoid... any sort of accusations 01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:31.019 or allegations that would derail the conversation. 01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:33.940 At the end of the day, what I am looking at in 01:03:33.940 --> 01:03:35.639 terms of the last two years, because that is 01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:38.039 what I'm hyper focused on right now, is I'm looking 01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:41.199 at what's happened to Palestinians in Gaza over 01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:43.579 the last two years. I am looking at the military 01:03:43.579 --> 01:03:46.579 leadership of the Israeli military, and I'm looking 01:03:46.579 --> 01:03:48.820 at the political leadership of the government 01:03:48.820 --> 01:03:51.219 that's in power currently. I could care less 01:03:51.219 --> 01:03:53.820 about any other details right now. That is who 01:03:53.820 --> 01:03:55.960 I am focused on. They are the ones who said, 01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:58.800 drop all the bombs. They are the ones who said, 01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:01.900 move in and move this way. And so, you know, 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:04.920 I think anybody that tries to change the conversation 01:04:04.920 --> 01:04:09.320 into a, well, you're trying to, you know, essentially 01:04:09.320 --> 01:04:12.099 label all of these people this way, or you're 01:04:12.099 --> 01:04:14.119 behaving in this manner. I think they're not 01:04:14.119 --> 01:04:16.360 serious about the conversation at play here. 01:04:16.579 --> 01:04:19.690 They're going to allow. people like Benjamin 01:04:19.690 --> 01:04:23.369 Netanyahu to get away with sort of all of his 01:04:23.369 --> 01:04:25.909 failures, including his security failure on October 01:04:25.909 --> 01:04:28.869 7th, his inability to sort of defend his own 01:04:28.869 --> 01:04:31.130 people on that day. So I think that's something 01:04:31.130 --> 01:04:33.750 that he needs to be held accountable for. And 01:04:33.750 --> 01:04:37.230 so that's why it's always about accountability. 01:04:37.449 --> 01:04:40.409 It's about justice. And at the end of the day, 01:04:40.429 --> 01:04:44.070 if you're not serving that, then you're going 01:04:44.070 --> 01:04:49.980 to not have addressed any, the issue in any impactful 01:04:49.980 --> 01:04:51.880 way. I truly, truly believe that. I mean, we're 01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:54.699 talking here in the United States now about military 01:04:54.699 --> 01:04:57.659 action in Latin America. I mean, you are watching 01:04:57.659 --> 01:05:00.000 people, again, the same people who love to send 01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.219 other people's kids to the front lines of battles, 01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:06.019 the folks who probably have never served a single 01:05:06.019 --> 01:05:08.019 day in their life. You hear them now saying, 01:05:08.099 --> 01:05:11.300 Nicholas Maduro should leave. One way or the 01:05:11.300 --> 01:05:13.519 other, he's going to leave. We're talking about 01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:15.360 Latin America. When you start hearing rhetoric 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:17.860 like that, they want boots on the ground. They 01:05:17.860 --> 01:05:20.139 want to engage in military activity, and they 01:05:20.139 --> 01:05:23.900 want to make sure other people's sons and daughters 01:05:23.900 --> 01:05:26.539 are the ones fighting these wars that will inevitably 01:05:26.539 --> 01:05:29.420 cause the bodies to pile up, people to suffer, 01:05:29.579 --> 01:05:32.579 and tragedy to occur. And that's what bothers 01:05:32.579 --> 01:05:35.360 me. It just really kills me because I saw it 01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:37.300 take place over the last two years. I see these 01:05:37.300 --> 01:05:42.849 Israeli ministers who are extreme. By all standards, 01:05:43.030 --> 01:05:46.449 very extreme, very hateful, very racist individuals. 01:05:46.809 --> 01:05:49.989 And I see their tweets. I follow them on X and 01:05:49.989 --> 01:05:54.409 I see their posts. And it is absolutely. inhumane 01:05:54.409 --> 01:05:56.690 the stuff that they tweet out there the the joy 01:05:56.690 --> 01:05:59.670 that they get about a school getting bombed and 01:05:59.670 --> 01:06:03.289 you know 15 kids uh getting killed and them saying 01:06:03.289 --> 01:06:05.690 oh well yeah this is what you know they have 01:06:05.690 --> 01:06:08.269 to pay a price because of what happened beforehand 01:06:08.269 --> 01:06:10.570 or this is how we get our revenge and you're 01:06:10.570 --> 01:06:12.730 like these people should not be in power they 01:06:12.730 --> 01:06:15.269 should not be anywhere near other human beings 01:06:15.269 --> 01:06:18.130 let alone in a cabinet position for a government 01:06:18.130 --> 01:06:20.889 so um you know i worry about that and i see signs 01:06:20.889 --> 01:06:24.269 of that here in our own country where You have 01:06:24.269 --> 01:06:26.690 people who are just, you know, just so willing 01:06:26.690 --> 01:06:30.489 to say, hey, you know, to scream war and to be 01:06:30.489 --> 01:06:34.090 so happy to engage in war and to fight the, you 01:06:34.090 --> 01:06:36.250 know, like you said, I mean, I think, you know, 01:06:36.250 --> 01:06:40.010 Howard Zinn is this historian. He's the late 01:06:40.010 --> 01:06:42.170 Howard Zinn. But, you know, he had made the argument 01:06:42.170 --> 01:06:44.010 that, you know, there's always these in American 01:06:44.010 --> 01:06:46.849 history, at least they talk about the three sort 01:06:46.849 --> 01:06:50.710 of good wars. Like these are wars that were fought 01:06:50.710 --> 01:06:54.480 for. you know, moral reasons. And he talks about 01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:56.579 the American Revolutionary War. He talks about 01:06:56.579 --> 01:06:58.300 the Civil War and he talks about World War II. 01:06:58.539 --> 01:07:02.460 And he then points out, he goes into detail about 01:07:02.460 --> 01:07:04.719 how there were really horrible things that were 01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:08.320 done during these wars and how you cannot just 01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:10.699 sugarcoat everything. If you're going to do something, 01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:15.059 just understand the human consequences as a result 01:07:15.059 --> 01:07:16.800 of this. And I don't think people are doing that. 01:07:16.900 --> 01:07:19.039 I don't think that you're seeing people in power, 01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:22.090 especially. who are considering the human cost 01:07:22.090 --> 01:07:24.769 and who are considering sort of that sort of 01:07:24.769 --> 01:07:26.909 element of it. No, they're considering the defense 01:07:26.909 --> 01:07:30.929 contracts, the weapons industry, and they're 01:07:30.929 --> 01:07:33.670 considering their political positions and appearing 01:07:33.670 --> 01:07:37.610 powerful. I hate that. I've had so many veterans 01:07:37.610 --> 01:07:40.670 on now, veterans of the Afghanistan war and in 01:07:40.670 --> 01:07:44.469 Iraq specifically, and you listen to these real 01:07:44.469 --> 01:07:48.010 warriors. You know, there's no question that 01:07:48.010 --> 01:07:49.829 there were times when they were out there that 01:07:49.829 --> 01:07:53.610 they made, you know, a difference in that particular 01:07:53.610 --> 01:07:55.769 place. If they were being oppressed by a Taliban 01:07:55.769 --> 01:07:57.429 or whoever it was, or whether they were just, 01:07:57.449 --> 01:08:00.929 you know, helping build a school or, you know, 01:08:00.929 --> 01:08:03.750 the physicians helping, you know, local people 01:08:03.750 --> 01:08:06.840 that were sick. I think a lot of them can be 01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:08.920 proud of their service, but when they ask, well, 01:08:08.980 --> 01:08:10.860 why were we there in the first place and why 01:08:10.860 --> 01:08:12.719 were we there for so long? And then why did we 01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:14.579 leave the way we did? And why do we allow these 01:08:14.579 --> 01:08:17.279 people to go back in power and kill so many of 01:08:17.279 --> 01:08:20.420 these courageous, you know, indigenous people 01:08:20.420 --> 01:08:22.979 that fought alongside us that now they're beheaded 01:08:22.979 --> 01:08:26.039 and all that their family killed, you know, that 01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:28.899 there's a real cautionary tale there. And I was 01:08:28.899 --> 01:08:31.199 talking to someone about this, this show that 01:08:31.199 --> 01:08:33.060 I'm making with my new book, you know, that. 01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:35.899 Even though it doesn't take place in that era, 01:08:36.060 --> 01:08:38.819 it's that same thing. Like, we should be still 01:08:38.819 --> 01:08:40.939 hearing from our veterans. It should be front 01:08:40.939 --> 01:08:43.340 and center because they're the ones that, you 01:08:43.340 --> 01:08:45.600 know, that's the new war is hell conversation 01:08:45.600 --> 01:08:48.039 is coming from our Middle East veterans, from 01:08:48.039 --> 01:08:49.800 all the countries, you know, the veterans from 01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:53.180 Iraq and everyone. And so, like you said, these 01:08:53.180 --> 01:08:55.739 politicians, they send other people's kids to 01:08:55.739 --> 01:08:58.739 war. And it absolutely disgusts me. Another thing 01:08:58.739 --> 01:09:01.319 that you don't see put front and center, because 01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:04.640 let's be completely honest, there is a section 01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:07.579 of Islamophobia that's going on at the moment 01:09:07.579 --> 01:09:10.420 that are all, you know, up in arms and, you know, 01:09:10.420 --> 01:09:12.899 celebrating the fact that this has gone on in 01:09:12.899 --> 01:09:14.640 Gaza because, you know, they're obviously not 01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:17.460 a fan of the Muslim faith. So where's the conversation 01:09:17.460 --> 01:09:19.479 about the Christian churches that have been killed? 01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:21.779 and the Christians within Gaza. So talk to me 01:09:21.779 --> 01:09:24.359 about that for the people that, let's say someone's 01:09:24.359 --> 01:09:26.539 listening that only cares about people in their 01:09:26.539 --> 01:09:30.880 own faith. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's important 01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:34.020 to understand Palestinian culture and society. 01:09:34.420 --> 01:09:38.840 There is no religious tension that exists between 01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:42.840 Palestinian Christians and Muslims. I think that 01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:46.239 probably that has to do with both sort of suffering 01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:49.329 under... occupation. And if you live in Gaza, 01:09:49.449 --> 01:09:52.569 you know, kind of unites you. But there aren't 01:09:52.569 --> 01:09:54.689 the same tensions that exist that you may see 01:09:54.689 --> 01:09:57.050 in other areas where there are sort of different 01:09:57.050 --> 01:09:59.630 people of different backgrounds and faiths. In 01:09:59.630 --> 01:10:01.609 fact, you know, I'll give you an example. Of 01:10:01.609 --> 01:10:03.229 course, my mother went to a Catholic school. 01:10:03.310 --> 01:10:05.130 She's Muslim, went to a Catholic school growing 01:10:05.130 --> 01:10:09.890 up in Jerusalem. And, you know, it's, you know, 01:10:09.909 --> 01:10:12.649 in Ramallah, which is where the, in the West 01:10:12.649 --> 01:10:14.770 Bank, where the Palestinian Authority is based, 01:10:15.109 --> 01:10:17.520 Ramallah is a traditionally like, you know, a 01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:21.279 very Christian and Muslim town. And so, you know, 01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:26.000 you're talking about a society that's part and 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:30.460 parcel of being Palestinian is either being Muslim 01:10:30.460 --> 01:10:33.539 or Christian. I've even heard there's some Jews 01:10:33.539 --> 01:10:36.000 too. So that's like, you know, I think the idea 01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:39.260 here is that this is a very sacred land to many 01:10:39.260 --> 01:10:42.680 different faiths. And, you know, I visited Jerusalem 01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:44.659 very recently and I went to the Church of the 01:10:44.659 --> 01:10:46.949 Holy Sepulchre because I just, you know, i'm 01:10:46.949 --> 01:10:49.949 just fascinated by the old city and the person 01:10:49.949 --> 01:10:53.449 one of the main people that is uh monitoring 01:10:53.449 --> 01:10:55.470 it he's a volunteer doesn't get paid but he's 01:10:55.470 --> 01:10:57.449 sort of like making sure that you know people 01:10:57.449 --> 01:11:00.130 aren't filming tick tocks inside of you know 01:11:00.130 --> 01:11:03.569 very you know sacred areas uh he's this you know 01:11:03.569 --> 01:11:06.590 palestinian man and he's somebody who lives in 01:11:06.590 --> 01:11:09.970 jerusalem palestinian christian who can recount 01:11:11.760 --> 01:11:15.300 probably for his entire adult life, the abuses 01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:19.220 and the sort of discrimination that he encounters 01:11:19.220 --> 01:11:21.659 being in a city that's, you know, surrounded 01:11:21.659 --> 01:11:26.779 by Israeli police and military. And in Gaza specifically, 01:11:27.140 --> 01:11:31.140 there is this ancient, one of the oldest churches 01:11:31.140 --> 01:11:35.539 in the world is in Gaza. It's always been there, 01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:38.500 of course, and, you know, regardless of who was 01:11:38.500 --> 01:11:41.470 in control of the Gaza Strip. It's always kind 01:11:41.470 --> 01:11:44.409 of had the freedom to sort of exist and move. 01:11:44.689 --> 01:11:47.130 And I want to mention this very specifically. 01:11:47.689 --> 01:11:52.949 This is the Ahli Baptist Church. Pope Francis, 01:11:53.090 --> 01:11:56.970 the late Pope Francis, would FaceTime the clergy 01:11:56.970 --> 01:12:00.590 in this church every single day until he died. 01:12:00.729 --> 01:12:04.569 He was FaceTiming them during the assault. This 01:12:04.569 --> 01:12:08.010 is a church that had been bombed, but many of 01:12:08.010 --> 01:12:11.930 its... Many of its congregants were actually 01:12:11.930 --> 01:12:14.329 sheltering and displaced in the church. So they 01:12:14.329 --> 01:12:16.210 were living around the church and inside of the 01:12:16.210 --> 01:12:17.869 church. We're talking about almost two years 01:12:17.869 --> 01:12:21.350 here. And Pope Francis would continuously talk 01:12:21.350 --> 01:12:23.390 to them. And you could see on different videos, 01:12:23.449 --> 01:12:25.689 actually, there's one video that was caught where 01:12:25.689 --> 01:12:27.250 he's asking them, well, what did you guys eat 01:12:27.250 --> 01:12:30.359 today? And because they were just like all these 01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:32.020 other Palestinians in Gaza being starved, the 01:12:32.020 --> 01:12:33.600 Palestinian Christians were being starved too. 01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:38.760 And so you're talking about a very small minority 01:12:38.760 --> 01:12:42.659 in Gaza with this very rich history that's at 01:12:42.659 --> 01:12:45.840 risk of being erased. This church that's been 01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:47.659 there forever, one of the oldest churches in 01:12:47.659 --> 01:12:49.460 the world, at risk of being reduced to rubble 01:12:49.460 --> 01:12:52.220 just like the rest of Gaza. And so the Israelis 01:12:52.220 --> 01:12:55.779 had approved the decision. that the entire world 01:12:55.779 --> 01:12:57.359 told them, don't do this. They said, we're going 01:12:57.359 --> 01:13:00.920 to do a Gaza City offensive. Gaza City is the 01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:03.720 most populated city in all of Gaza. And it's 01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:06.319 one of the most densely populated areas in the 01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:09.079 world. It is more densely populated in normal 01:13:09.079 --> 01:13:12.000 times than Tokyo, than Tokyo, Japan. It's more 01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:14.739 densely populated. And the church is in Gaza 01:13:14.739 --> 01:13:17.340 City. That church, this ancient historic church 01:13:17.340 --> 01:13:20.100 is in Gaza City. The Israeli military issued... 01:13:20.319 --> 01:13:22.880 displacement orders for all of gaza city and 01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:26.619 you saw 300 400 500 000 palestinians start walking 01:13:26.619 --> 01:13:31.520 south away from the military this church all 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:36.760 of the congregants the the the clergy the everybody 01:13:36.760 --> 01:13:38.880 came together and they made the decision we're 01:13:38.880 --> 01:13:42.869 not leaving And they refused to leave. Despite 01:13:42.869 --> 01:13:45.390 the bombing all around them, despite the tanks 01:13:45.390 --> 01:13:47.369 moving in and the ground troops invading, they 01:13:47.369 --> 01:13:49.909 made the decision not to leave. And I give them 01:13:49.909 --> 01:13:52.390 so much respect and credit for that, to make 01:13:52.390 --> 01:13:56.869 that horrifying decision. But it was so, it is 01:13:56.869 --> 01:14:00.310 unbelievably courageous, but also they were not 01:14:00.310 --> 01:14:03.350 going to be erased. And I think, you know, that's, 01:14:03.350 --> 01:14:06.189 I think when we think about, when Palestinians 01:14:06.189 --> 01:14:09.800 like myself, we think about, We want to preserve 01:14:09.800 --> 01:14:13.380 our tradition and our culture and our history. 01:14:13.699 --> 01:14:17.479 That is a very, very important piece to the puzzle. 01:14:17.960 --> 01:14:22.579 You know, like, you know, Jesus Christ was born 01:14:22.579 --> 01:14:27.039 in Bethlehem. And one of our national leaders 01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:32.199 is a pastor from a church named Munder Isaac. 01:14:32.770 --> 01:14:34.789 You know, I think you should, if I can somehow 01:14:34.789 --> 01:14:36.310 connect you to him, I would love to connect you 01:14:36.310 --> 01:14:37.569 to him because he's such an important voice. 01:14:37.670 --> 01:14:40.010 He is one of the leading voices for Palestinians 01:14:40.010 --> 01:14:42.909 in the diaspora and on the ground in the West 01:14:42.909 --> 01:14:45.270 Bank and Gaza. He's a thought leader and he's 01:14:45.270 --> 01:14:48.050 somebody who sort of is a moral compass for so 01:14:48.050 --> 01:14:51.850 many of us. That's, you know, these are the sort 01:14:51.850 --> 01:14:54.649 of, when we talk about Palestinian Christians, 01:14:55.050 --> 01:14:57.529 they're Palestinian, just like a Palestinian 01:14:57.529 --> 01:14:59.750 Muslim person. And they have gone through every 01:14:59.750 --> 01:15:02.439 single struggle. that Palestinians have gone 01:15:02.439 --> 01:15:04.439 through. They've not been given any sort of exception. 01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:06.539 And oftentimes we see them as they walk through 01:15:06.539 --> 01:15:09.619 the old city of Jerusalem, they get harassed 01:15:09.619 --> 01:15:14.600 more and they get attacked more. I mean, stories 01:15:14.600 --> 01:15:17.479 of being spit on, of being hit, of being, you 01:15:17.479 --> 01:15:21.600 know, just blockaded. They endure the same struggles. 01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:25.819 And I'll give one last example. When there are 01:15:25.819 --> 01:15:30.859 major Christian holidays, whether it's mass for 01:15:30.859 --> 01:15:35.699 Christmas Eve or Easter, the ability to access 01:15:35.699 --> 01:15:40.600 the old city, they endure the same sort of restrictions 01:15:40.600 --> 01:15:44.180 and blockades and occupation that the rest of 01:15:44.180 --> 01:15:47.500 the Palestinian population does. You're talking 01:15:47.500 --> 01:15:49.859 about the most significant holidays for an entire 01:15:49.859 --> 01:15:52.039 faith. And you're talking not just that this 01:15:52.039 --> 01:15:55.060 is happening in Chicago or in London or in Berlin. 01:15:55.140 --> 01:15:58.000 You're talking about the hub. you know, kind 01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.859 of the center of where this faith started. And 01:16:00.859 --> 01:16:03.779 you are watching sort of this sort of discrimination 01:16:03.779 --> 01:16:06.279 against them. I hope people can understand that 01:16:06.279 --> 01:16:09.180 because I feel like in this country specifically, 01:16:09.399 --> 01:16:14.619 a certain evangelical flavor will try to paint 01:16:14.619 --> 01:16:17.590 this as like. Hey, this is a struggle between, 01:16:17.789 --> 01:16:20.390 you know, the Jewish faith and the Muslim faith. 01:16:20.529 --> 01:16:23.310 No, it's not. That's not the case at all. It 01:16:23.310 --> 01:16:26.409 is a struggle between a military that is occupying 01:16:26.409 --> 01:16:29.729 and an indigenous people who are just trying 01:16:29.729 --> 01:16:32.949 to preserve who they are, because we've seen 01:16:32.949 --> 01:16:35.689 many people in their sort of positions in the 01:16:35.689 --> 01:16:39.109 past get erased. That's I think that's I think 01:16:39.109 --> 01:16:40.630 it's important just for people to put that context 01:16:40.630 --> 01:16:43.289 into place. And just so I'm clear, there have 01:16:43.289 --> 01:16:45.640 been. Palestinian Christians killed and there 01:16:45.640 --> 01:16:48.500 have been Palestinian churches, Christian churches 01:16:48.500 --> 01:16:52.800 destroyed. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, 01:16:53.720 --> 01:16:56.979 I actually don't think the, I don't think I know 01:16:56.979 --> 01:17:00.079 that the health ministry in Gaza does not distinguish 01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:03.859 based on faith, but you will, you will, you know. 01:17:04.909 --> 01:17:08.470 People in Gaza, there was nowhere that was safe. 01:17:08.630 --> 01:17:11.529 And so wherever Palestinian Christians or Muslims 01:17:11.529 --> 01:17:16.829 or any other faith, all of them have been subjected 01:17:16.829 --> 01:17:20.850 to the same intense violence that we've seen 01:17:20.850 --> 01:17:25.149 on display. Palestinian American Christian journalist 01:17:25.149 --> 01:17:28.930 in Jenin before October 7th, 2023. In 2023, the 01:17:28.930 --> 01:17:31.989 most up until October 7th was the deadliest year 01:17:31.989 --> 01:17:34.069 in the West Bank since the second intifada in 01:17:34.069 --> 01:17:36.869 the early 2000s. And in Jenin, the Israeli military 01:17:36.869 --> 01:17:39.050 was conducting operations and it was becoming 01:17:39.050 --> 01:17:41.810 very intense. One of the most famous journalists, 01:17:42.170 --> 01:17:46.390 her name is Shireen Abu Akleh. She is a Palestinian 01:17:46.390 --> 01:17:50.229 American, New Jersey native, worked for Al Jazeera. 01:17:50.329 --> 01:17:53.390 I remember growing up with Shireen. reporting 01:17:53.390 --> 01:17:56.210 from the ground. She was hit by an Israeli sniper 01:17:56.210 --> 01:17:59.050 and killed. No accountability. Nobody brought 01:17:59.050 --> 01:18:01.850 to justice. State Department was not able to 01:18:01.850 --> 01:18:03.930 produce any sort of investigation about Shireen. 01:18:04.149 --> 01:18:06.949 She's a Palestinian Christian. On the day of 01:18:06.949 --> 01:18:09.909 her funeral, on the day of her funeral, because 01:18:09.909 --> 01:18:12.489 the Israeli police and military in Jerusalem, 01:18:12.630 --> 01:18:14.229 because she was going to be buried in Jerusalem 01:18:14.229 --> 01:18:16.970 because her family was from there. they were 01:18:16.970 --> 01:18:19.210 beating the people who were carrying her coffin. 01:18:19.590 --> 01:18:23.770 And what they found, a group of Muslims gathered 01:18:23.770 --> 01:18:26.170 around, picked up the coffin, and you can watch 01:18:26.170 --> 01:18:28.609 the video of them get beaten, but insisted on 01:18:28.609 --> 01:18:30.649 carrying the body of Shadeen until she could 01:18:30.649 --> 01:18:33.430 have been given a proper burial. So this is, 01:18:33.449 --> 01:18:37.670 she's somebody who was loved by all of us. You 01:18:37.670 --> 01:18:40.909 know, I grew up a Muslim. Shadeen is a part of 01:18:40.909 --> 01:18:43.289 my childhood. watching her report from the ground 01:18:43.289 --> 01:18:45.510 and to watch her just get gunned down the way 01:18:45.510 --> 01:18:47.250 she was gunned down, just a sniper hitting her 01:18:47.250 --> 01:18:50.329 in the head. It's, you know, her second anniversary 01:18:50.329 --> 01:18:53.970 passed recently. It's one of those things, again, 01:18:54.029 --> 01:18:57.189 I talk about no justice, no accountability. Yeah, 01:18:57.229 --> 01:18:59.750 I mean, that is just one of so many heartbreaking 01:18:59.750 --> 01:19:02.189 images. And as you alluded to, I mean, Hind's 01:19:02.189 --> 01:19:04.829 story and the first responders, the firefighters 01:19:04.829 --> 01:19:06.590 and the paramedics were gunned down. I mean, 01:19:06.609 --> 01:19:08.590 it's just, it's unending. And this is what I 01:19:08.590 --> 01:19:11.029 don't understand is that why people can't separate 01:19:12.290 --> 01:19:14.310 political ideologies and just look as a human 01:19:14.310 --> 01:19:16.310 being you know the same thing as we've talked 01:19:16.310 --> 01:19:18.090 about many times the people that were killed 01:19:18.090 --> 01:19:20.789 on october 7th you know that's a tragedy as well 01:19:20.789 --> 01:19:23.050 and why can you not just say that those two things 01:19:23.050 --> 01:19:26.750 can exist simultaneously that's what that's what 01:19:26.750 --> 01:19:28.630 really bothers me i don't think anybody is serious 01:19:28.630 --> 01:19:32.289 about um you know protecting you know human rights 01:19:32.289 --> 01:19:34.390 and making sure that civilians aren't targeted 01:19:34.390 --> 01:19:36.710 and making sure that you know at least if you're 01:19:36.710 --> 01:19:39.460 gonna have something take place that the sanctity 01:19:39.460 --> 01:19:41.979 of hospitals, churches, mosques, all these things 01:19:41.979 --> 01:19:44.819 are sort of protected. You're not serious if 01:19:44.819 --> 01:19:47.460 you somehow find exceptions for those rules, 01:19:47.500 --> 01:19:49.659 depending on who the people are, you know, depending 01:19:49.659 --> 01:19:52.199 on what their skin color is, or what their faith 01:19:52.199 --> 01:19:53.880 is, or what their background is, or what their 01:19:53.880 --> 01:19:56.159 politics are. So, you know, it's something that 01:19:56.159 --> 01:19:58.560 I think, again, it's, we're heading down the 01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:01.199 wrong path, for sure. You know, those interesting 01:20:01.199 --> 01:20:03.359 thing too, that I didn't realize until very recently, 01:20:03.380 --> 01:20:06.810 and I had posted about this was with Hind. And 01:20:06.810 --> 01:20:09.090 Ahmed and Yusuf, the two first responders, I 01:20:09.090 --> 01:20:13.210 didn't realize that they were at. It's just crazy 01:20:13.210 --> 01:20:14.930 how this story, no matter how you look at it, 01:20:14.949 --> 01:20:18.329 is just absolutely tragic. But they got the dispatch 01:20:18.329 --> 01:20:21.510 while they were at the Ahli Baptist Hospital 01:20:21.510 --> 01:20:24.329 that had been bombed in early October 2023. So 01:20:24.329 --> 01:20:25.930 they were there, stationed there at this hospital 01:20:25.930 --> 01:20:28.210 that had been bombed. And they were talking to 01:20:28.210 --> 01:20:30.510 one of the young journalists, Ismail Al Ghul, 01:20:30.590 --> 01:20:33.689 who was a journalist that was killed of the more 01:20:33.689 --> 01:20:37.109 than 200. you know, 25 journalists killed in 01:20:37.109 --> 01:20:40.989 Gaza. So it's like, you know, every single part 01:20:40.989 --> 01:20:44.210 of that story had death and tragedy connected 01:20:44.210 --> 01:20:46.970 to it. We just didn't know at the time. So it 01:20:46.970 --> 01:20:48.949 was, you know, really just tough story to deal 01:20:48.949 --> 01:20:52.869 with. I visited the call center, the Palestinian 01:20:52.869 --> 01:20:56.550 Red Crescent in... uh the west bank that took 01:20:56.550 --> 01:20:59.550 the call of hind on the phone um you know they 01:20:59.550 --> 01:21:01.369 spent obviously more than three hours with her 01:21:01.369 --> 01:21:03.770 i saw the desk where they took the call i saw 01:21:03.770 --> 01:21:05.510 the call center they showed me kind of how they 01:21:05.510 --> 01:21:09.329 respond and they had this poster of all of the 01:21:09.329 --> 01:21:12.250 first responders who had been killed in two years 01:21:12.250 --> 01:21:17.909 and you know um it it was really tough i mean 01:21:17.909 --> 01:21:19.810 these pictures of these guys wearing their uniforms 01:21:19.810 --> 01:21:22.399 smiling posted up there knowing that they were 01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:26.359 killed in the line of duty. Those people, I don't 01:21:26.359 --> 01:21:28.579 know. I mean, again, I hate to say it again, 01:21:28.659 --> 01:21:31.300 but those people deserve justice. I mean, their 01:21:31.300 --> 01:21:34.079 families deserve justice. These guys, man, they're 01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:37.319 absolute heroes for even deciding to get in a 01:21:37.319 --> 01:21:39.439 car or to go and try to dig somebody out of, 01:21:39.479 --> 01:21:41.979 you know, from some rubble or try to put out 01:21:41.979 --> 01:21:44.800 a fire while there was a, you know, a kid running 01:21:44.800 --> 01:21:47.479 through trying to, you know, rescue them. And 01:21:47.479 --> 01:21:49.380 to think that they were, you know, the fact that 01:21:49.380 --> 01:21:52.319 they were wearing their vests is put a target 01:21:52.319 --> 01:21:54.460 on their back. It kills me. And I, you know, 01:21:54.460 --> 01:21:56.500 I really don't want to let that slide, even if 01:21:56.500 --> 01:21:58.420 there is, which I think we're going to talk about 01:21:58.420 --> 01:22:01.260 now, some sort of fragile ceasefire that's maintained 01:22:01.260 --> 01:22:04.619 or whatever it is. Those guys deserve, those 01:22:04.619 --> 01:22:09.260 guys deserve justice. I posted one of the rescues 01:22:09.260 --> 01:22:11.119 from, you know, some of the rescue workers and 01:22:11.119 --> 01:22:13.100 it was a successful rescue and it was a very 01:22:13.100 --> 01:22:15.850 young girl. And again, just seeing some of the 01:22:15.850 --> 01:22:17.850 comments, it blew me out. I don't want to go 01:22:17.850 --> 01:22:20.649 down that whole internet troll thing, but people 01:22:20.649 --> 01:22:23.710 that I know that were first responders themselves, 01:22:23.909 --> 01:22:27.069 who I spent time with in person a few months 01:22:27.069 --> 01:22:30.630 ago, basically saying, I'm not going to be part 01:22:30.630 --> 01:22:32.909 of the podcast anymore. Why would you share Al 01:22:32.909 --> 01:22:36.409 Jazeera? It's a video of a young girl being rescued 01:22:36.409 --> 01:22:40.210 after a bombing by men that share the same exact 01:22:40.210 --> 01:22:44.600 uniform as me. And if you still... so ingrained 01:22:44.600 --> 01:22:48.539 in your messiah of the left or the right whoever 01:22:48.539 --> 01:22:51.140 it is that you can't even see humanity anymore 01:22:51.140 --> 01:22:54.460 i got nothing for you i mean i'm sorry but that 01:22:54.460 --> 01:22:58.319 if there's not a red flag for mental the mental 01:22:58.319 --> 01:23:01.539 health crisis in this country is the lack of 01:23:01.539 --> 01:23:05.250 moral compass then You're not going to be able 01:23:05.250 --> 01:23:07.210 to persuade that person back into the middle. 01:23:07.229 --> 01:23:09.090 That person needs to look in the mirror and go, 01:23:09.210 --> 01:23:12.050 where is my compassion? I need to go do some 01:23:12.050 --> 01:23:16.909 work on myself. Yeah. I mean, it's a crisis of 01:23:16.909 --> 01:23:20.310 empathy, you know, and it goes back to dehumanization. 01:23:20.409 --> 01:23:23.909 If you can quickly dehumanize the other person 01:23:23.909 --> 01:23:25.970 that you're looking across, if you can quickly 01:23:25.970 --> 01:23:29.529 somehow make them less human than you. You can 01:23:29.529 --> 01:23:31.189 do anything. I mean, anything is possible at 01:23:31.189 --> 01:23:33.409 that point. And like, you know, these guys, they 01:23:33.409 --> 01:23:35.750 are digging with their hands. They're being exposed. 01:23:36.130 --> 01:23:38.949 I mean, we know this from 9 -11, you know, like 01:23:38.949 --> 01:23:41.930 these first responders and police officers and 01:23:41.930 --> 01:23:43.869 firefighters that rushed into a building that 01:23:43.869 --> 01:23:47.029 was on fire, but also collapsing. If they survived. 01:23:47.960 --> 01:23:50.699 then they still dealt and they are still dealing 01:23:50.699 --> 01:23:53.600 with lifelong health problems. Well, it's the 01:23:53.600 --> 01:23:55.319 same thing with these folks here. They're with 01:23:55.319 --> 01:23:57.140 their bare hands trying to dig through the rubble. 01:23:57.180 --> 01:23:59.020 There's all these fumes coming up from the bomb 01:23:59.020 --> 01:24:02.359 that was just dropped. So, I mean, again, you 01:24:02.359 --> 01:24:05.020 know, they don't get enough credit. They don't 01:24:05.020 --> 01:24:08.039 get enough honor and respect. And for those that 01:24:08.039 --> 01:24:12.000 have been killed, I think, you know, you know. 01:24:12.850 --> 01:24:15.250 Comments like that or people who are sort of 01:24:15.250 --> 01:24:17.750 like deemed, they actually fuel me to make sure 01:24:17.750 --> 01:24:20.470 that I want to tell their story. I want to confront 01:24:20.470 --> 01:24:23.149 everyone with their faces, with pictures of them 01:24:23.149 --> 01:24:27.770 at the most recent birthday party. I don't want 01:24:27.770 --> 01:24:29.770 you to deny their humanity. And if I have to, 01:24:29.829 --> 01:24:35.010 I will continue to shove that not just in everybody's 01:24:35.010 --> 01:24:37.949 face who kind of sat idly by who could have made 01:24:37.949 --> 01:24:39.329 a difference and changed something, but to people 01:24:39.329 --> 01:24:42.770 who may also lack that sort of empathy. I want 01:24:42.770 --> 01:24:44.430 to confront them with this. And maybe they can, 01:24:44.449 --> 01:24:46.989 maybe that's the way that they can sort of, it 01:24:46.989 --> 01:24:48.710 can awaken something inside of them where they 01:24:48.710 --> 01:24:50.850 can be like, damn, you know, that guy, you know, 01:24:50.850 --> 01:24:53.550 he's wearing a Spider -Man shirt, just like, 01:24:53.630 --> 01:24:55.090 you know, I have a Spider -Man shirt or something 01:24:55.090 --> 01:24:59.329 like that. You know what I mean? Exactly. So 01:24:59.329 --> 01:25:02.250 let's get to the ceasefire. James Gearing's perspective 01:25:02.250 --> 01:25:07.130 was one of the basically allies of these, you 01:25:07.130 --> 01:25:10.949 know, these tyrants. then started parading around 01:25:10.949 --> 01:25:13.729 saying, I deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. I'm going 01:25:13.729 --> 01:25:16.710 to stop this crisis. Now, to me, that would be 01:25:16.710 --> 01:25:19.310 like Mussolini saying that he was instrumental 01:25:19.310 --> 01:25:23.170 in stopping the genocide in World War II. That's 01:25:23.170 --> 01:25:25.229 just my personal opinion. So I'll leave that 01:25:25.229 --> 01:25:30.229 there. Talk to me about the so -called ceasefire, 01:25:30.470 --> 01:25:34.289 the fragility, and then what's threatening it 01:25:34.289 --> 01:25:38.909 as we sit here now on October 29th, 2025. Yeah. 01:25:38.970 --> 01:25:41.529 So this is actually a very sad and convoluted 01:25:41.529 --> 01:25:44.569 way that we got to the ceasefire. Donald Trump 01:25:44.569 --> 01:25:47.850 was elected as president. And in late January, 01:25:47.949 --> 01:25:50.109 right before he's supposed to have his inauguration, 01:25:50.229 --> 01:25:53.930 he essentially demonstrated what President Biden 01:25:53.930 --> 01:25:58.149 could not do. He told the Israelis through Witkoff, 01:25:58.170 --> 01:26:00.649 his special envoy. who is a billionaire real 01:26:00.649 --> 01:26:04.149 estate person based in New York, who the president 01:26:04.149 --> 01:26:08.010 trusts a lot, trusts more than Secretary Marco 01:26:08.010 --> 01:26:10.810 Rubio, who you, I think, have probably noticed 01:26:10.810 --> 01:26:12.770 is absent from these Middle East negotiations, 01:26:12.949 --> 01:26:16.130 as well as the Ukraine -Russia stuff. So special 01:26:16.130 --> 01:26:20.369 envoy Steve Witkoff is the guy. So Witkoff basically 01:26:20.369 --> 01:26:22.449 tells the Israelis and really forces on them 01:26:22.449 --> 01:26:24.810 that you need to get a ceasefire done. Nothing 01:26:24.810 --> 01:26:27.369 is going to distract from the president's inauguration. 01:26:27.739 --> 01:26:30.979 And sure enough, a ceasefire deal is secured. 01:26:31.100 --> 01:26:33.619 And it's this phased approach, phase one, phase 01:26:33.619 --> 01:26:35.279 two, phase three. Phase one, you're going to 01:26:35.279 --> 01:26:39.039 release a, there's going to be an exchange of 01:26:39.039 --> 01:26:42.159 prisoners between the Israelis and the Palestinians. 01:26:42.380 --> 01:26:44.260 And then you saw that sort of take place. And 01:26:44.260 --> 01:26:46.399 then, you know, they're going to allow Palestinians 01:26:46.399 --> 01:26:47.760 who were displaced to the south to go to the 01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:50.220 north. So we saw all of that take place. The 01:26:50.220 --> 01:26:53.979 ceasefire phase one expiration was 50 days, 5 01:26:53.979 --> 01:26:57.279 -0. During that time period, the Israelis. who 01:26:57.279 --> 01:27:00.720 were previously blockading uh un trucks from 01:27:00.720 --> 01:27:03.560 getting in were allowing trucks to enter and 01:27:03.560 --> 01:27:06.140 these i mean i tell you these un agencies these 01:27:06.140 --> 01:27:08.439 humanitarian organizations they were doing an 01:27:08.439 --> 01:27:11.399 amazing job about 600 trucks a day they were 01:27:11.399 --> 01:27:13.140 getting it out there the difference on the ground 01:27:13.140 --> 01:27:15.319 was felt by everybody on the ground in that short 01:27:15.319 --> 01:27:17.859 time period and everybody's sort of like damn 01:27:17.859 --> 01:27:21.800 like this is this could work march 2nd ceasefire 01:27:21.800 --> 01:27:24.420 deal expires And we are hearing that there have 01:27:24.420 --> 01:27:28.100 been no progress towards the phase two of the 01:27:28.100 --> 01:27:31.279 negotiations. March 18th, the Israelis violate 01:27:31.279 --> 01:27:34.399 the ceasefire agreement and unleash hell on Gaza. 01:27:34.579 --> 01:27:38.840 I have many colleagues who were in Gaza at the 01:27:38.840 --> 01:27:42.560 time, five of my pretty good friends. And they 01:27:42.560 --> 01:27:46.800 talk about night and day, just drones are overhead, 01:27:46.939 --> 01:27:49.340 fighter jets are overhead, bombing incessantly 01:27:49.340 --> 01:27:52.979 every 10, 15 minutes. And just pure... you know, 01:27:53.000 --> 01:27:55.199 pure pandemonium. And I remember being in DC, 01:27:55.260 --> 01:27:57.159 January and February, visiting different offices 01:27:57.159 --> 01:28:00.600 and saying, remember specifically saying, we 01:28:00.600 --> 01:28:03.380 cannot allow this ceasefire deal to fall apart. 01:28:03.539 --> 01:28:06.880 It will be the cruelest thing imaginable. It 01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:09.699 will be so incredibly cruel to give a glimmer 01:28:09.699 --> 01:28:11.560 of hope that there's going to be some stability 01:28:11.560 --> 01:28:14.300 and some entry of aid, and then just to rip that 01:28:14.300 --> 01:28:16.609 all away from them. And sure enough, on March 01:28:16.609 --> 01:28:18.869 18th, we saw things escalate, and we talked a 01:28:18.869 --> 01:28:21.029 little bit earlier about how they escalated to 01:28:21.029 --> 01:28:23.529 the point where there was famine on the ground, 01:28:24.010 --> 01:28:26.130 there was more displacement, and then we talked 01:28:26.130 --> 01:28:28.350 about the Gaza City Offensive, where Palestinian 01:28:28.350 --> 01:28:30.449 Christians in the heart of Gaza City refused 01:28:30.449 --> 01:28:32.770 to abandon their church and refused to leave 01:28:32.770 --> 01:28:35.909 despite the Israelis bearing down on them. So, 01:28:35.909 --> 01:28:42.729 what happens? Well, the... Palestinian factions, 01:28:42.930 --> 01:28:46.069 including Hamas and other groups, are signaling 01:28:46.069 --> 01:28:48.609 to the Trump administration that they're ready 01:28:48.609 --> 01:28:51.590 to accept this sort of Trump peace proposal that's 01:28:51.590 --> 01:28:56.430 been on the ground since January. And they are 01:28:56.430 --> 01:29:00.850 coming together in Doha, Qatar, to give their 01:29:00.850 --> 01:29:04.529 formal agreement to Trump's peace proposal. And 01:29:04.529 --> 01:29:06.829 all of this is being leaked by different journalists 01:29:06.829 --> 01:29:09.630 saying, You know, they're very optimistic they're 01:29:09.630 --> 01:29:11.710 going to have a deal. The president himself says, 01:29:11.810 --> 01:29:13.550 I think we're going to have a deal in two days, 01:29:13.569 --> 01:29:15.850 maybe one week. And so momentum is building. 01:29:16.489 --> 01:29:20.909 This tells you just how insane Benjamin Netanyahu 01:29:20.909 --> 01:29:25.210 and his thugs are. They make the decision to 01:29:25.210 --> 01:29:28.229 scramble their fighter jets and to cross the 01:29:28.229 --> 01:29:32.510 Red Sea and head to Qatar and bomb where the 01:29:32.510 --> 01:29:34.890 Palestinians are meeting to give their response 01:29:34.890 --> 01:29:41.289 to President Trump. So this has been one of a 01:29:41.289 --> 01:29:44.470 series of really irrational and insane acts by 01:29:44.470 --> 01:29:46.850 the Israelis. But there's a twist this time. 01:29:47.550 --> 01:29:50.029 This time, the people they're trying to kill, 01:29:50.130 --> 01:29:53.369 for whatever reason, had stepped out of the room. 01:29:53.869 --> 01:29:57.029 And so this very insane decision where if he 01:29:57.029 --> 01:29:58.869 had killed those people, Netanyahu could have 01:29:58.869 --> 01:30:01.390 came out and said, these guys were dicking around. 01:30:01.949 --> 01:30:03.729 They were not serious about this peace proposal. 01:30:04.010 --> 01:30:06.189 And we sent them a message because they were 01:30:06.189 --> 01:30:08.510 going to continue to, you know, we killed them. 01:30:08.569 --> 01:30:10.909 They were responsible for whatever it was. Instead 01:30:10.909 --> 01:30:14.390 of that, now he had an international crisis on 01:30:14.390 --> 01:30:17.329 his hands because the Trump administration is 01:30:17.329 --> 01:30:21.550 fuming that they did this. The Qataris, of course, 01:30:21.550 --> 01:30:23.829 are like, we're not going to help. We're not 01:30:23.829 --> 01:30:25.590 going to be the middleman anymore for any of 01:30:25.590 --> 01:30:29.600 you people. Despite Obama asking us back in the 01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:32.300 2000s to open an office for the Taliban so we 01:30:32.300 --> 01:30:34.279 can negotiate, to open an office for Hamas so 01:30:34.279 --> 01:30:36.699 we can negotiate, despite us being sort of this 01:30:36.699 --> 01:30:38.560 broker, we're not doing any of that bidding. 01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:42.899 It is pure pandemonium and crisis. And so what 01:30:42.899 --> 01:30:46.539 you see then is, and this is why I say this is 01:30:46.539 --> 01:30:49.840 really sad and convoluted, is you see what sort 01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:52.100 of pressure the Americans and the rest of the 01:30:52.100 --> 01:30:54.500 world can put on the Israelis to come to the 01:30:54.500 --> 01:30:58.520 table. Because now Netanyahu is summoned and 01:30:58.520 --> 01:31:01.300 you see Trump hand him a phone and he has to 01:31:01.300 --> 01:31:04.159 call the Qataris and apologize. And they tell 01:31:04.159 --> 01:31:07.340 them the Americans through Witkoff and now Jared 01:31:07.340 --> 01:31:11.220 Kushner, who has reemerged from the dead, is 01:31:11.220 --> 01:31:13.420 now involved in these negotiations. And essentially 01:31:13.420 --> 01:31:16.300 they're telling the Israelis, you have to accept 01:31:16.300 --> 01:31:18.880 this peace proposal. Well, let's dig a little 01:31:18.880 --> 01:31:21.800 deep into what the peace proposal is. At the 01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:24.939 end of the day. it was the release of all of 01:31:24.939 --> 01:31:28.060 the remaining israeli prisoners in gaza all of 01:31:28.060 --> 01:31:32.180 the remaining uh uh abductees uh people who had 01:31:32.180 --> 01:31:34.720 been kidnapped as well as all the palestinians 01:31:34.720 --> 01:31:37.560 who have been abducted um you know or at least 01:31:37.560 --> 01:31:39.699 two thousand of the tenth of the six thousand 01:31:39.699 --> 01:31:42.460 and so you see that exchange of the people who 01:31:42.460 --> 01:31:44.560 had not been killed the israelis who had not 01:31:44.560 --> 01:31:47.149 been killed in gaza they're released And then 01:31:47.149 --> 01:31:49.829 you see a bunch of, you see almost 2000 Palestinians 01:31:49.829 --> 01:31:52.810 get released. And so that was a part of this 01:31:52.810 --> 01:31:54.810 phase of the first phase of the ceasefire. The 01:31:54.810 --> 01:31:57.569 other part was there are now three lines in Gaza 01:31:57.569 --> 01:32:00.210 and the Israelis agreed as a part of phase one, 01:32:00.250 --> 01:32:03.810 they will withdraw to the first line. And if 01:32:03.810 --> 01:32:05.670 we get to the next phase, they'll withdraw to 01:32:05.670 --> 01:32:07.470 the second line. And if we get to the third phase, 01:32:07.569 --> 01:32:09.329 they'll withdraw to the third line. If you look 01:32:09.329 --> 01:32:12.970 at these maps, James. The key point in all of 01:32:12.970 --> 01:32:15.149 this is not where these lines are drawn, but 01:32:15.149 --> 01:32:18.350 where the final line is drawn, because the Israelis 01:32:18.350 --> 01:32:21.109 have essentially created a buffer zone where 01:32:21.109 --> 01:32:23.949 they have taken parts of the Gaza Strip, where 01:32:23.949 --> 01:32:27.470 they have now in this agreement basically said, 01:32:27.510 --> 01:32:28.869 we're not going to give this back. We're going 01:32:28.869 --> 01:32:31.510 to be here forever. Like this is now we're changing 01:32:31.510 --> 01:32:34.989 the borders, essentially. And then they left 01:32:34.989 --> 01:32:38.350 all of the major issues. Oh, sorry. The last 01:32:38.350 --> 01:32:41.739 part of this is that Hamas has. said that they 01:32:41.739 --> 01:32:45.220 will not participate in any Palestinian government, 01:32:45.539 --> 01:32:48.260 authority, or administration in the Gaza Strip. 01:32:48.439 --> 01:32:51.020 They are out of Palestinian politics. That was 01:32:51.020 --> 01:32:53.420 agreed. That's phase one. The reason we got to 01:32:53.420 --> 01:32:56.260 phase one is because all of the other major issues 01:32:56.260 --> 01:32:59.939 have been pushed off to phase two, and none of 01:32:59.939 --> 01:33:02.300 these have been reconciled yet. None of these 01:33:02.300 --> 01:33:04.779 have been addressed. These are things like what 01:33:04.779 --> 01:33:06.920 happens to the border between Gaza and Egypt? 01:33:07.399 --> 01:33:10.439 Will the Israelis maintain a checkpoint here? 01:33:10.520 --> 01:33:14.119 Will Palestinians be able to enter Israel or 01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:16.100 to go to Jerusalem to get medical treatment or 01:33:16.100 --> 01:33:17.840 to the West Bank like they used to be able to 01:33:17.840 --> 01:33:21.020 before October 7th? Who will be allowed to bring 01:33:21.020 --> 01:33:23.529 aid in? Are the UN agencies there? What about 01:33:23.529 --> 01:33:27.050 these killing centers, the GHF, the Gaza Humanitarian 01:33:27.050 --> 01:33:29.489 Foundation, this American -Israeli initiative 01:33:29.489 --> 01:33:33.229 that had security contractors? Basically, are 01:33:33.229 --> 01:33:38.609 they going to exist in this post -genocide Gaza? 01:33:39.069 --> 01:33:41.149 So none of these questions are answered. And 01:33:41.149 --> 01:33:44.289 there's an idea of we want an international stabilization 01:33:44.289 --> 01:33:49.449 force that can disarm Hamas, which I think Hamas 01:33:49.449 --> 01:33:54.750 has said they are willing to. give up major weapons, 01:33:54.850 --> 01:33:57.510 but not small weapons? Well, who's going to do 01:33:57.510 --> 01:33:59.949 the disarming? Who is going to produce the troops 01:33:59.949 --> 01:34:04.170 for that? How long will they be there for? And 01:34:04.170 --> 01:34:07.890 then finally, what is this transitional government 01:34:07.890 --> 01:34:12.770 going to look like? They want, of course, to 01:34:12.770 --> 01:34:16.449 have different people involved. Somehow, Tony 01:34:16.449 --> 01:34:18.920 Blair... Talk about reemerging from the dead. 01:34:19.039 --> 01:34:21.140 He's involved. Is he going to be the governor 01:34:21.140 --> 01:34:24.779 of this transitional moment? I don't know why 01:34:24.779 --> 01:34:27.840 he's in the mix at all. I have no idea. Nobody 01:34:27.840 --> 01:34:30.489 can explain to us. what sort of role he'll play, 01:34:30.569 --> 01:34:34.250 which is what Palestinians want. They want Palestinian 01:34:34.250 --> 01:34:37.109 technocrats, people who are apolitical, who are 01:34:37.109 --> 01:34:41.149 experts in health, in recovery, in finance. They 01:34:41.149 --> 01:34:43.390 want them to form a caretaker government that 01:34:43.390 --> 01:34:47.550 eventually leads to some sort of long -term government. 01:34:47.890 --> 01:34:50.810 None of these questions are answered. And the 01:34:50.810 --> 01:34:54.060 biggest issue that we've seen and i will say 01:34:54.060 --> 01:34:56.500 this very bluntly and very clearly because this 01:34:56.500 --> 01:35:02.199 has been confirmed by all sources is netanyahu's 01:35:02.199 --> 01:35:07.800 government uh there is a lot of deep unpopularity 01:35:07.800 --> 01:35:10.020 with the ceasefire proposal with the agreement 01:35:10.020 --> 01:35:15.220 to this ceasefire and two days after he agreed 01:35:15.220 --> 01:35:17.859 to the ceasefire he had to show up in court for 01:35:17.859 --> 01:35:20.800 his corruption trial that he's undergoing and 01:35:21.550 --> 01:35:24.449 you are seeing that this could potentially lead 01:35:24.449 --> 01:35:28.729 to elections in Israel. So you are talking about 01:35:28.729 --> 01:35:32.789 a government that has every excuse to make sure 01:35:32.789 --> 01:35:36.310 this ceasefire does not maintain any sort of 01:35:36.310 --> 01:35:39.149 sustainability. I will share two stories about 01:35:39.149 --> 01:35:42.609 this. The first is there were Israeli bulldozers 01:35:42.609 --> 01:35:44.890 in Rafah that were bulldozing buildings, and 01:35:44.890 --> 01:35:47.449 they are behind that first line that we talked 01:35:47.449 --> 01:35:51.489 about. They went over an unexploded ordnance 01:35:51.489 --> 01:35:55.829 and two Israeli soldiers were killed. The Israelis 01:35:55.829 --> 01:35:59.510 immediately responded and said, oh, this was 01:35:59.510 --> 01:36:03.250 a Hamas attack. And they hit 11 or 14 different 01:36:03.250 --> 01:36:08.710 targets in Gaza, saying that. And in fact, Smotrich, 01:36:08.750 --> 01:36:11.369 who is the finance minister for the Israelis, 01:36:11.550 --> 01:36:15.229 tweeted. or posted on x he said literally just 01:36:15.229 --> 01:36:17.930 the word war exclamation mark when this happened 01:36:17.930 --> 01:36:20.189 well the americans had been monitoring the situation 01:36:20.189 --> 01:36:23.489 and so the trump administration let the israelis 01:36:23.489 --> 01:36:27.850 know they said we know that this story is not 01:36:27.850 --> 01:36:30.930 true so knock it off so they stopped the bombing 01:36:30.930 --> 01:36:33.850 and then they had also closed the border where 01:36:33.850 --> 01:36:35.949 aid would enter and they said reopen the border 01:36:35.949 --> 01:36:38.449 and three hours later benjamin netanyahu with 01:36:38.449 --> 01:36:42.340 his tail between his legs gets up and says Ceasefire 01:36:42.340 --> 01:36:45.300 is back on, border is open. There was some sort 01:36:45.300 --> 01:36:47.579 of issue that took place. So that was the first 01:36:47.579 --> 01:36:49.859 moment where we saw the ceasefire could fall 01:36:49.859 --> 01:36:52.220 apart. The second thing is there are these remains 01:36:52.220 --> 01:36:57.479 of hostages in Gaza, of Israeli hostages in Gaza. 01:36:57.819 --> 01:37:04.899 And there are 13 remaining remains. And so the 01:37:04.899 --> 01:37:09.579 Israelis are using this as an excuse to say that 01:37:09.579 --> 01:37:12.439 Hamas is violating the ceasefire. into bomb again 01:37:12.439 --> 01:37:16.399 and the last 24 hours there was apparently a 01:37:16.399 --> 01:37:19.180 skirmish between an undisclosed palestinian armed 01:37:19.180 --> 01:37:22.819 group in rafa and then this this delay in the 01:37:22.819 --> 01:37:25.819 handing over of remains that the israelis decided 01:37:25.819 --> 01:37:28.500 that we are going to punish hamas for this and 01:37:28.500 --> 01:37:31.500 the way that they punished hamas is they killed 01:37:31.500 --> 01:37:35.000 100 palestinians 36 of them were kids in 24 hours 01:37:35.000 --> 01:37:41.479 and so i was very disturbed by this because when 01:37:41.479 --> 01:37:44.500 the americans needed to show force on this instead 01:37:44.500 --> 01:37:50.199 you had rubio say who again is a nobody in this 01:37:50.199 --> 01:37:52.420 administration is not trusted but you saw him 01:37:52.420 --> 01:37:54.899 jump in and say we never said with this peace 01:37:54.899 --> 01:37:56.760 proposal that the israelis couldn't defend themselves 01:37:57.580 --> 01:37:59.500 They always will have the right to defend themselves. 01:37:59.699 --> 01:38:01.840 So, again, lacking the leadership that's needed 01:38:01.840 --> 01:38:04.300 to say this is Trump's peace proposal and you're 01:38:04.300 --> 01:38:06.060 going to abide by the president's peace proposal. 01:38:06.279 --> 01:38:08.119 No, they didn't do that. Like they did the first 01:38:08.119 --> 01:38:10.260 time around. And then you saw J .D. Vance say, 01:38:10.340 --> 01:38:11.520 no, there's still a ceasefire. There's still 01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:14.079 a ceasefire. And the Israelis bombed 100, killed 01:38:14.079 --> 01:38:16.939 100 people. All of these different kids were 01:38:16.939 --> 01:38:18.840 killed and they came out and they said, OK, ceasefire 01:38:18.840 --> 01:38:21.020 is back into effect. That's not how a ceasefire 01:38:21.020 --> 01:38:23.779 works. And if that is going to be the trajectory 01:38:23.779 --> 01:38:27.319 of the next few months. We are in for a total 01:38:27.319 --> 01:38:29.659 disaster. We're in for a total disaster and we 01:38:29.659 --> 01:38:31.460 will see more bloodshed. We will see more people 01:38:31.460 --> 01:38:34.300 die unnecessarily. And that's really what bothers 01:38:34.300 --> 01:38:35.979 me. And I know I'm going on too long, but I'll 01:38:35.979 --> 01:38:39.000 say one last thing. No, you're fine. Witkoff 01:38:39.000 --> 01:38:41.619 and Kushner did a 60 Minutes interview that aired 01:38:41.619 --> 01:38:43.920 last Sunday. And they said a couple of, it just 01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:45.819 shows you that both of these guys are not diplomats, 01:38:45.899 --> 01:38:48.899 which is a good and bad thing. They are not your 01:38:48.899 --> 01:38:54.539 seasoned career politicians, right? So there's 01:38:54.539 --> 01:38:56.479 a couple of things that they said. The first 01:38:56.479 --> 01:38:59.079 is Kushner said he went to Gaza and it looked 01:38:59.079 --> 01:39:02.439 like an atomic bomb had gone off. Jared Kushner 01:39:02.439 --> 01:39:05.939 said this. And you can ask anybody. Jared Kushner 01:39:05.939 --> 01:39:10.100 is a fierce ally of Israel, of the state of Israel. 01:39:10.979 --> 01:39:14.739 He has self -proclaimed like he really wants 01:39:14.739 --> 01:39:17.460 that country to succeed. He really wants it to 01:39:17.460 --> 01:39:20.420 be able to. And he said it looked like an atomic 01:39:20.420 --> 01:39:22.159 bomb had went off. And then the other thing he 01:39:22.159 --> 01:39:25.439 said was, he said, I saw people going back to 01:39:25.439 --> 01:39:27.500 the north. And I asked the Israeli military, 01:39:27.960 --> 01:39:30.779 where are they going? Because it looked like 01:39:30.779 --> 01:39:32.579 an atomic bomb had went off. He said they're 01:39:32.579 --> 01:39:35.779 going to go and sit atop of where their homes 01:39:35.779 --> 01:39:38.979 once were, despite it being rubble. And he had 01:39:38.979 --> 01:39:41.460 said that was incredibly sad. Well, he's acknowledging 01:39:41.460 --> 01:39:43.159 something there. And I don't know if he realizes 01:39:43.159 --> 01:39:45.579 it, but he's acknowledging the indiscriminate 01:39:45.579 --> 01:39:48.039 bombing that the Israeli military had inflicted 01:39:48.039 --> 01:39:50.600 on the Gaza Strip. And he acknowledged that there's 01:39:50.600 --> 01:39:52.420 going to be a plight of displaced Palestinians 01:39:52.420 --> 01:39:57.329 who... homes have been for no reason had gone 01:39:57.329 --> 01:39:59.710 off. And the final thing was what Witkoff was 01:39:59.710 --> 01:40:04.390 saying. Witkoff admitted, and this is something 01:40:04.390 --> 01:40:05.850 we knew, but this is important. He said this 01:40:05.850 --> 01:40:07.989 on 60 Minutes. You know, the Americans had never 01:40:07.989 --> 01:40:12.350 directly in all of our history and all of Hamas's 01:40:12.350 --> 01:40:16.350 history, we've never directly engaged in negotiations 01:40:16.350 --> 01:40:19.189 with them. We've just not done that. This was 01:40:19.189 --> 01:40:22.010 the first time where the president gave Witkoff 01:40:22.010 --> 01:40:24.350 and Kushner special permission to engage with 01:40:24.350 --> 01:40:27.970 them directly because he felt that doing it through 01:40:27.970 --> 01:40:30.850 these intermediates and mediators wasn't getting 01:40:30.850 --> 01:40:33.369 the job done. And so they directly did it. That's 01:40:33.369 --> 01:40:35.970 something that the Israelis are strongly opposed. 01:40:36.329 --> 01:40:38.409 They strongly oppose that. They do not want the 01:40:38.409 --> 01:40:40.409 Americans communicating with any Palestinians 01:40:40.409 --> 01:40:43.840 without the Israelis babysitting it. and there's 01:40:43.840 --> 01:40:46.079 a reason for that they want the israeli america 01:40:46.079 --> 01:40:48.079 and israel want to be from the israeli perspective 01:40:48.079 --> 01:40:50.180 they want to have the same message and they want 01:40:50.180 --> 01:40:53.260 to have the same line and so this changed in 01:40:53.260 --> 01:40:55.760 these negotiations um and they were able to sort 01:40:55.760 --> 01:40:58.079 of uh get to you know apply the pressure that 01:40:58.079 --> 01:41:00.460 was needed so you know this is where we're at 01:41:00.460 --> 01:41:04.079 right now um and if you could tell just by how 01:41:04.079 --> 01:41:08.180 long i was going on for it is so it is very concerning 01:41:08.180 --> 01:41:10.359 everybody's still very tense and anxious about 01:41:10.359 --> 01:41:14.449 what could happen what about the israeli voice 01:41:14.449 --> 01:41:15.930 because i've said this you know the whole two 01:41:15.930 --> 01:41:18.489 years that there's you know you saw this in russia 01:41:18.489 --> 01:41:20.609 there was a lot of opposition within russia and 01:41:20.609 --> 01:41:22.270 all of a sudden there wasn't and i'm assuming 01:41:22.270 --> 01:41:23.670 that means that the government made all those 01:41:23.670 --> 01:41:27.149 people go away most likely when you know i'm 01:41:27.149 --> 01:41:29.229 obviously i'm getting sound bites but you know 01:41:29.229 --> 01:41:31.829 we all have a lean so i don't know if the sound 01:41:31.829 --> 01:41:33.930 bites are just coming from an echo chamber but 01:41:33.930 --> 01:41:37.670 i I seem to see like there was a growing voice 01:41:37.670 --> 01:41:41.210 of this was never about the hostages from the 01:41:41.210 --> 01:41:45.090 Israelis themselves. I'm sure that the people 01:41:45.090 --> 01:41:47.409 in Tel Aviv would love to go along, you know, 01:41:47.409 --> 01:41:49.409 get on with their life and not worry about being 01:41:49.409 --> 01:41:53.050 shelled or, you know, IED or anything else going 01:41:53.050 --> 01:41:56.250 on. And so the average people from, I mean, everywhere 01:41:56.250 --> 01:41:58.449 on this damn planet just want to literally... 01:41:58.680 --> 01:42:00.779 go to work, raise their kids, know that their 01:42:00.779 --> 01:42:02.359 kids are going to be safe in school. That's another 01:42:02.359 --> 01:42:06.779 entire American conversation in itself. So what 01:42:06.779 --> 01:42:10.079 have you heard as far as the average Israeli 01:42:10.079 --> 01:42:14.300 voice and their perspective on this fragile ceasefire 01:42:14.300 --> 01:42:19.399 at the moment? So I think, and obviously I'm 01:42:19.399 --> 01:42:21.319 not an expert on this, but what we're seeing 01:42:21.319 --> 01:42:24.159 really is a very similar sort of environment 01:42:24.159 --> 01:42:27.340 to American politics with how divisive and polarizing 01:42:27.340 --> 01:42:30.260 things are. I think you have people in Israel 01:42:30.260 --> 01:42:35.140 who are extremely, extremely upset and disappointed 01:42:35.140 --> 01:42:38.399 in the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu and cannot 01:42:38.399 --> 01:42:41.359 wait to see the day that he's out of power. And 01:42:41.359 --> 01:42:44.930 as you said, I think the hostage families. have 01:42:44.930 --> 01:42:50.229 been this really well -organized, powerful voice 01:42:50.229 --> 01:42:54.909 in Israeli internal politics and dynamics. They 01:42:54.909 --> 01:42:58.159 have really been one of the few. i think they've 01:42:58.159 --> 01:43:00.939 been able to break through in a way uh whereas 01:43:00.939 --> 01:43:02.979 like if you're a part of the opposition you're 01:43:02.979 --> 01:43:05.659 just sort of shut down ignored uh but they've 01:43:05.659 --> 01:43:07.380 been able to break through that to be able to 01:43:07.380 --> 01:43:10.399 really hold to account and continuously re -center 01:43:10.399 --> 01:43:13.060 the discussion towards uh you know humans and 01:43:13.060 --> 01:43:15.460 not important not towards like oh we want to 01:43:15.460 --> 01:43:18.199 annihilate and you know decimate and all of these 01:43:18.199 --> 01:43:21.279 things and i think um one powerful message that 01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:25.219 arose was that the person who was the most The 01:43:25.219 --> 01:43:28.140 way that Netanyahu and the Israeli military were 01:43:28.140 --> 01:43:30.739 behaving in Gaza was clear that the priority 01:43:30.739 --> 01:43:33.880 was not the return of the hostages. And that 01:43:33.880 --> 01:43:38.539 became a salient message in Israel. But again, 01:43:38.680 --> 01:43:43.119 you have, I think, a society that is very polarized 01:43:43.119 --> 01:43:46.479 with respect to politics. And I think there's 01:43:46.479 --> 01:43:48.819 been, I'll tell you just from the perspective 01:43:48.819 --> 01:43:51.640 of what's happening in the West Bank with Israeli 01:43:51.640 --> 01:43:55.329 settlers who are... you know, who have killed 01:43:55.329 --> 01:43:57.489 Americans. Actually, recently, there was an American 01:43:57.489 --> 01:43:59.869 from Florida in the summer was visiting his family. 01:44:00.170 --> 01:44:03.310 He is a very young man, 19 or 20 years old, safe 01:44:03.310 --> 01:44:06.029 alone. And he was beaten to death by Israeli 01:44:06.029 --> 01:44:09.010 settlers. And, you know, who were sort of raiding 01:44:09.010 --> 01:44:10.750 the village, the Palestinian village that he 01:44:10.750 --> 01:44:12.569 was in. And then they went ahead and blocked 01:44:12.569 --> 01:44:14.670 the ambulance from being able to get to him. 01:44:14.729 --> 01:44:17.560 So this guy. died from a brain bleed but you 01:44:17.560 --> 01:44:19.939 know that is happening these sorts of that sort 01:44:19.939 --> 01:44:21.800 of violence is happening in the west bank and 01:44:21.800 --> 01:44:24.760 so you see it's a very divide you know this is 01:44:24.760 --> 01:44:27.359 a very polarizing thing and so i think that's 01:44:27.359 --> 01:44:32.020 why the idea of an election For Netanyahu, he's 01:44:32.020 --> 01:44:34.880 very averse to that, like an early election where, 01:44:34.979 --> 01:44:37.279 you know, he has people sort of withdraw from 01:44:37.279 --> 01:44:38.920 his government and then suddenly you're triggering 01:44:38.920 --> 01:44:41.680 elections in Israel. It's going to be I think 01:44:41.680 --> 01:44:44.340 it's I think you're going to see a lot of different 01:44:44.340 --> 01:44:46.880 all of these voices emerge in a very loud way. 01:44:47.119 --> 01:44:49.140 I think it's important for people to recognize 01:44:49.140 --> 01:44:51.600 that prior to what's this, you know, what's happened 01:44:51.600 --> 01:44:54.760 in the last two years, Israeli society was at 01:44:54.760 --> 01:44:57.680 a standstill every single week. Israelis were 01:44:57.680 --> 01:45:00.689 in the streets. protesting Benjamin Netanyahu, 01:45:00.710 --> 01:45:02.869 wanting him to resign, wanting the government 01:45:02.869 --> 01:45:04.869 to fall apart, and that they had had multiple 01:45:04.869 --> 01:45:07.750 elections in the previous two years and could 01:45:07.750 --> 01:45:13.529 never have a, I guess, a government that lasted 01:45:13.529 --> 01:45:15.949 until Netanyahu started joining forces with the 01:45:15.949 --> 01:45:18.789 extreme right and was able to kind of, you know, 01:45:18.869 --> 01:45:20.810 hold on to government. And then obviously when 01:45:20.810 --> 01:45:22.810 things break out, if you're pitching war to people, 01:45:22.890 --> 01:45:24.890 they don't want to change leadership in the middle 01:45:24.890 --> 01:45:28.920 of a war. So I think there's, again, with how 01:45:28.920 --> 01:45:33.960 much discussion is taking place inside, I think 01:45:33.960 --> 01:45:36.399 there's an aversion to politics if you're already 01:45:36.399 --> 01:45:41.840 in power. To elections, I should say. So, sowing 01:45:41.840 --> 01:45:44.840 some seeds of hope to kind of leave as a final 01:45:44.840 --> 01:45:49.159 thought, what needs to happen so that we do see 01:45:49.159 --> 01:45:52.300 a conclusion to this horrendous chapter of modern 01:45:52.300 --> 01:45:56.720 society? Yeah, I mean, I think... There's a couple 01:45:56.720 --> 01:45:59.100 of things. I think first and foremost, you have 01:45:59.100 --> 01:46:02.880 to understand that you cannot just assume that, 01:46:02.939 --> 01:46:05.779 you know, boots on the ground from an array of 01:46:05.779 --> 01:46:07.699 different countries are going to somehow create 01:46:07.699 --> 01:46:10.439 some degree of stability. Those people need to 01:46:10.439 --> 01:46:12.720 leave at some point. They'll never have a mandate 01:46:12.720 --> 01:46:17.500 forever. And eventually, you know, it is that 01:46:17.500 --> 01:46:20.239 is an occupation. And so it's important, I think, 01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:22.920 for all parties to realize that safety and security 01:46:22.920 --> 01:46:27.140 is tied to the. opportunities that are available 01:46:27.140 --> 01:46:33.960 for prosperity and for some future ahead. Palestinians 01:46:33.960 --> 01:46:40.680 need to have some degree of agency. They need 01:46:40.680 --> 01:46:44.319 to be able to have self -determination. They 01:46:44.319 --> 01:46:46.199 need to be involved in this recovery process. 01:46:46.399 --> 01:46:51.659 It cannot be Tony Blair, Indonesia. the UK, Egypt 01:46:51.659 --> 01:46:54.180 kind of dictating what happens to Palestinians. 01:46:54.500 --> 01:46:57.340 No, you need to find the people that are embedded 01:46:57.340 --> 01:47:01.000 within the community who are these leaders, who 01:47:01.000 --> 01:47:04.000 are people who people trust. You need to have 01:47:04.000 --> 01:47:06.739 them leading the effort. That needs to be a part 01:47:06.739 --> 01:47:08.340 of the equation. And right now, that's not what's 01:47:08.340 --> 01:47:11.300 happening. And I think that's why we're not seeing 01:47:11.300 --> 01:47:15.079 any sort of serious... results coming out of 01:47:15.079 --> 01:47:18.760 this. The other thing is the status quo is unsustainable. 01:47:18.779 --> 01:47:20.520 What do I mean by the status quo, which has been 01:47:20.520 --> 01:47:22.659 the policy of the United States for the last 01:47:22.659 --> 01:47:27.880 six decades? This West Bank where there's a bunch 01:47:27.880 --> 01:47:29.760 of Palestinians, Gaza, there's a bunch of Palestinians, 01:47:29.939 --> 01:47:31.760 East Jerusalem where there's a bunch of Palestinians. 01:47:32.039 --> 01:47:34.520 But you've got the Israeli military absolutely 01:47:34.520 --> 01:47:37.140 occupying and increasing their presence. It's 01:47:37.140 --> 01:47:39.859 not going to work. It's just not sustainable. 01:47:39.859 --> 01:47:43.880 It hasn't worked. It's not provided any sort 01:47:43.880 --> 01:47:46.659 of safety or security for anybody. There needs 01:47:46.659 --> 01:47:49.880 to be, and I don't care what people decide. I 01:47:49.880 --> 01:47:51.460 think at the end of the day, it is what it is. 01:47:51.500 --> 01:47:53.279 One state, two state, three state, four states. 01:47:53.819 --> 01:47:56.560 But there needs to be real stability here and 01:47:56.560 --> 01:47:59.899 there needs to be real services. You cannot have 01:47:59.899 --> 01:48:03.739 corrupt despots showing up who are going to be 01:48:03.739 --> 01:48:05.500 like kind of dictating to people and you're going 01:48:05.500 --> 01:48:07.279 to say, oh, that's your leader. And you cannot 01:48:07.279 --> 01:48:10.020 have a military that's going to monitor all movement, 01:48:10.100 --> 01:48:12.239 who's going to set up over a thousand checkpoints, 01:48:12.319 --> 01:48:14.239 who's going to prevent people from ever leaving 01:48:14.239 --> 01:48:18.579 the Gaza Strip. It cannot happen. The way forward 01:48:18.579 --> 01:48:22.329 is. Not by repeating the mistakes of the past. 01:48:22.430 --> 01:48:25.170 The day after can't look like the day before. 01:48:25.329 --> 01:48:28.210 We can't go back to October 6th, 2023. If you 01:48:28.210 --> 01:48:31.750 do... you're you're we are going to fail miserably 01:48:31.750 --> 01:48:34.829 it needs to be a dramatic change and i know that's 01:48:34.829 --> 01:48:36.689 it's easier said than done but i can tell you 01:48:36.689 --> 01:48:40.430 if we if palace if a palestinian child can grow 01:48:40.430 --> 01:48:42.149 up and say well you know i want to travel the 01:48:42.149 --> 01:48:44.710 world or i want to study engineering or i want 01:48:44.710 --> 01:48:48.090 to visit jerusalem and you make that a reality 01:48:48.090 --> 01:48:52.189 for them you will have safety stability security 01:48:52.189 --> 01:48:55.100 and prosperity There's no way around it. But 01:48:55.100 --> 01:48:57.199 if this is about if we're going to continue to 01:48:57.199 --> 01:49:01.140 prioritize land grabs or, you know, natural gas 01:49:01.140 --> 01:49:04.239 off the coast of the Mediterranean Sea or some 01:49:04.239 --> 01:49:07.439 sort of religious conviction that there's that 01:49:07.439 --> 01:49:10.819 you're entitled to everything, you know, that 01:49:10.819 --> 01:49:13.800 you can grab on to or, you know, all of these 01:49:13.800 --> 01:49:17.840 things, they will continue to bring about suffering. 01:49:17.899 --> 01:49:20.399 And it's not sustainable and it's not in the 01:49:20.399 --> 01:49:23.229 long term interests of any party. of anybody. 01:49:23.390 --> 01:49:25.350 It doesn't matter how strong you are today or 01:49:25.350 --> 01:49:27.970 how weak you are today. It's not going to be 01:49:27.970 --> 01:49:30.449 sustainable by any means. There has to be a shift. 01:49:30.550 --> 01:49:32.689 There has to be a change. We have not done anything 01:49:32.689 --> 01:49:36.930 that's worked in 75 years of this conflict on 01:49:36.930 --> 01:49:40.710 the ground. And now we've had a genocide unfold 01:49:40.710 --> 01:49:44.710 in two years. And so that's what needs to happen. 01:49:44.729 --> 01:49:47.109 The only way that happens, and I know people 01:49:47.109 --> 01:49:49.710 are not going to want to hear it, but it starts 01:49:49.710 --> 01:49:54.439 with the United States. Nothing happens over 01:49:54.439 --> 01:49:56.640 the last two years without the United States 01:49:56.640 --> 01:49:59.800 either giving a green light or a red light. Nothing 01:49:59.800 --> 01:50:03.680 can change on the ground without the United States. 01:50:03.840 --> 01:50:07.020 We are still, for all intents and purposes, the 01:50:07.020 --> 01:50:11.800 most powerful country, the most influential country, 01:50:11.960 --> 01:50:15.829 and we are... not just you know uh i mean before 01:50:15.829 --> 01:50:18.569 usaid shut down but not only were we sort of 01:50:18.569 --> 01:50:21.109 like providing military aid to the israelis but 01:50:21.109 --> 01:50:23.189 we're also funding all of these different you 01:50:23.189 --> 01:50:25.989 know humanitarian projects that you know in in 01:50:25.989 --> 01:50:29.569 palestine and so um we've you know it starts 01:50:29.569 --> 01:50:31.670 with us and it starts with real leadership and 01:50:31.670 --> 01:50:34.170 it's not going to be with neoconservatives or 01:50:34.170 --> 01:50:38.149 neoliberals or you know warmongers. It's going 01:50:38.149 --> 01:50:39.630 to be none of that. It's not going to be Ted 01:50:39.630 --> 01:50:42.229 Cruz or Lindsey Graham or Charles Schumer or, 01:50:42.229 --> 01:50:45.210 you know, Gavin Newsom. It will not be from those 01:50:45.210 --> 01:50:47.989 people. I promise you, they don't know what, 01:50:48.069 --> 01:50:50.170 you know, they want to keep things the way that 01:50:50.170 --> 01:50:52.090 they are. And the way that things are, are people 01:50:52.090 --> 01:50:54.789 are suffering unnecessarily. And yeah, it feels 01:50:54.789 --> 01:50:56.909 like it's a thousand miles away. But it will 01:50:56.909 --> 01:51:00.069 be coming to, you know, it'll be coming to a 01:51:00.069 --> 01:51:03.130 place near you or a place that you care about 01:51:03.130 --> 01:51:05.090 or that's near and dear to your heart. And it 01:51:05.090 --> 01:51:06.869 will continue to grow. And this cycle of violence 01:51:06.869 --> 01:51:09.130 only grows and gets bigger and extends. And so 01:51:09.130 --> 01:51:12.930 I would say that's the immediate next step is 01:51:12.930 --> 01:51:17.630 how can the United States change how it's mediating 01:51:17.630 --> 01:51:19.550 some of these things and influencing some of 01:51:19.550 --> 01:51:21.310 these things in a way that brings peace and prosperity? 01:51:21.510 --> 01:51:24.189 You know, I don't know. I think it needs more. 01:51:24.250 --> 01:51:27.789 I think we need better leaders. I want to finish 01:51:27.789 --> 01:51:30.970 with the story that you literally told me in 01:51:30.970 --> 01:51:33.689 our very first conversation, which was on the 01:51:33.689 --> 01:51:37.149 way to Gaza, you were in Jerusalem, if I remember 01:51:37.149 --> 01:51:40.109 rightly, and you were seeing Christians and Muslims 01:51:40.109 --> 01:51:43.369 and Jews all worshipping side by side, praying 01:51:43.369 --> 01:51:46.750 side by side. So let's kind of leave with that 01:51:46.750 --> 01:51:49.909 image of what can be. I mean, the people just 01:51:49.909 --> 01:51:53.189 seeing the shared humanity rather than the divisive. 01:51:53.449 --> 01:51:56.750 religious labels that we're putting on them well 01:51:56.750 --> 01:52:00.029 i just experienced that uh in the first week 01:52:00.029 --> 01:52:04.189 of october you know i was in jerusalem and same 01:52:04.189 --> 01:52:07.109 thing i mean people buying falafel sandwiches 01:52:07.109 --> 01:52:09.649 from each other you know i mean where you know 01:52:09.649 --> 01:52:14.090 they're they're uh you see uh orthodox jews walking 01:52:14.090 --> 01:52:16.149 through they've you know they've got the their 01:52:16.149 --> 01:52:20.869 entire uh like religious uh attire on you saw 01:52:22.039 --> 01:52:24.560 Christians from all over the world, you know, 01:52:24.560 --> 01:52:26.859 at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre or at the 01:52:26.859 --> 01:52:28.699 Greek Orthodox Church or visiting all of the 01:52:28.699 --> 01:52:31.079 other churches that were there. And you saw Muslims 01:52:31.079 --> 01:52:32.979 that were entering. And the only issue that was 01:52:32.979 --> 01:52:38.319 there, James, the only sort of, the only conflict 01:52:38.319 --> 01:52:42.640 was the presence of the Israeli military that 01:52:42.640 --> 01:52:44.819 were there in the old city that were harassing 01:52:44.819 --> 01:52:48.279 people. Everyday human beings, Muslims, Jews, 01:52:48.539 --> 01:52:50.680 Christians, families were just walking around. 01:52:51.310 --> 01:52:55.109 living life normally. I mean, buying sandwiches 01:52:55.109 --> 01:52:58.029 from each other, literally. And, you know, the 01:52:58.029 --> 01:53:01.109 only, it was only when you had, you know, that, 01:53:01.210 --> 01:53:04.189 that the institution that was sort of harassing 01:53:04.189 --> 01:53:07.329 people, that was the only sort of like negative 01:53:07.329 --> 01:53:10.229 vibe in that atmosphere, in that environment, 01:53:10.350 --> 01:53:14.439 you know, and I. I tell you, it's there. I mean, 01:53:14.460 --> 01:53:17.699 I think the ability for people to coexist and 01:53:17.699 --> 01:53:21.199 to live and to move forward, it's there. And 01:53:21.199 --> 01:53:23.340 I just think that the current institutions that 01:53:23.340 --> 01:53:27.579 are in place, they are what are tearing people 01:53:27.579 --> 01:53:32.279 apart. And I think, you know, I'm hopeful that 01:53:32.279 --> 01:53:36.060 the next generation is smarter than we are, wiser 01:53:36.060 --> 01:53:38.939 than we are, and more moral than we are. And 01:53:38.939 --> 01:53:41.220 I think it's possible. I think it's very, very 01:53:41.220 --> 01:53:44.529 possible. Well, I want to thank you again. Another 01:53:44.529 --> 01:53:46.550 two hour conversation. I was thinking every time 01:53:46.550 --> 01:53:48.109 we sit down, I'm like, oh, this will be short 01:53:48.109 --> 01:53:50.770 because we talked already for, you know, in prior 01:53:50.770 --> 01:53:52.789 episodes. But here we are again. But this is 01:53:52.789 --> 01:53:55.829 what's so important is to hear, you know, such 01:53:55.829 --> 01:53:58.770 a full conversation and obviously start, you 01:53:58.770 --> 01:54:00.810 know, at home and then and then go over to Gaza. 01:54:01.350 --> 01:54:04.029 But this is what educates us. And this is what 01:54:04.029 --> 01:54:06.069 I think brings us into the middle is, you know, 01:54:06.109 --> 01:54:09.689 we who who would want someone to suffer of whatever. 01:54:10.380 --> 01:54:13.319 Color, creed, gender, orientation, whatever it 01:54:13.319 --> 01:54:17.300 is. Unless they were literally a human being 01:54:17.300 --> 01:54:21.180 that is beyond help, everyone else, it's about 01:54:21.180 --> 01:54:23.479 healing. And I've always said this. I mean, I'm 01:54:23.479 --> 01:54:25.760 not an expert in every single religion and their 01:54:25.760 --> 01:54:28.859 holy book, but it seems like the wisdom that 01:54:28.859 --> 01:54:33.659 lasts the ages is, hey, war is really bad. Community, 01:54:34.020 --> 01:54:36.800 kindness, compassion, empathy, love, service. 01:54:37.500 --> 01:54:39.119 Those are the things that will actually make 01:54:39.119 --> 01:54:41.020 you happy. Next generation, next generation, 01:54:41.199 --> 01:54:44.560 next generation. So, you know, it's so important, 01:54:44.579 --> 01:54:47.579 I think, to hear, you know, keep hearing these 01:54:47.579 --> 01:54:50.739 conversations as we're going along and just being 01:54:50.739 --> 01:54:54.899 dogmatic as far as standing, you know, with that 01:54:54.899 --> 01:54:57.119 moral courage, you know, that having that moral 01:54:57.119 --> 01:54:59.500 compass, not about, you know, left, right, this. 01:54:59.899 --> 01:55:01.760 this religion, that religion, but just getting 01:55:01.760 --> 01:55:04.060 back to the middle of what is right. You know, 01:55:04.060 --> 01:55:06.720 I think most of us know exactly what is right 01:55:06.720 --> 01:55:08.520 and what is wrong. And what's happened recently 01:55:08.520 --> 01:55:11.760 is absolutely wrong. And the nuances and the 01:55:11.760 --> 01:55:14.920 backstories, of course, they come into how did 01:55:14.920 --> 01:55:17.439 we get here? But the point is now, where do we 01:55:17.439 --> 01:55:20.159 go from here? So I want to thank you so much 01:55:20.159 --> 01:55:23.079 again for being so generous with your time and 01:55:23.079 --> 01:55:25.739 coming on the Behind the Shield podcast. Always 01:55:25.739 --> 01:55:27.899 a pleasure. Always a pleasure. And I always learn 01:55:27.899 --> 01:55:29.380 something when I come on too. So I appreciate 01:55:29.380 --> 01:55:29.680 that.