Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Geering, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show
for the fourth time now, Chicago ER physician
and humanitarian, Dr. Thayer Ahmad. Now, in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics, from
what he's seeing in his own city as far as the
deployment of ICE and the National Guard, obesity
and the healthcare crisis, innovation in healthcare,
The Gaza ceasefire, what needs to happen to see
continued peace in Gaza, and so much more. Now,
before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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to hear them. So with that being said, I welcome
back onto the show Dr. Thea Ahmad. Enjoy. Well,
Thayer, I want to start by saying welcome back.
This is our fourth conversation in less than
two years. You have definitely become, not just
on this show, but I think nationally or internationally,
become one of the most kind of centrist voices
on the whole issue as far as, you know, what's
going on in Gaza at the moment. So firstly, I
just want to welcome you back. Thank you so much.
I appreciate it. Of course, always great to be
on and able to talk about some things in detail.
So I appreciate it. So where on planet Earth
are we finding you today? I'm back in Chicago
after spending some time in D .C. And before
that, I was in the West Bank for a few weeks
teaching a course and being denied entry into
Gaza again. Well, before we even go down that
road, there is this kind of parallel issue that's
going on at the moment where National Guardsmen
and women are being deployed into national cities
in America. And there's no doubt, I mean, you
and I have both seen it with our own eyes in
the professions that we serve in, that we have
a violence problem in this country. That being
said, from an ER physician's point of view, from
a resident of the city of Chicago, what are your
observations about... the violence that you're
seeing and then this kind of tactic that's being
used at the moment. Yeah, I mean, this is a disastrous
rollout that we've seen take place here in Chicago.
I think first it's important, I think, to understand
how you got to this point. And I think there's
a couple of reasons. But at the end of the day,
these are all moves that are motivated by political
gains and not actually addressing some of the
real problems that exist on the ground. And so,
you know, Chicago, I think, is one of the major
metropolitan cities where we saw there was a
massive influx of people who've migrated from
other countries. many of whom are documented
and many of whom are undocumented. And so particularly,
I think we saw in the last few years, we saw
a rise in undocumented migrants coming to Chicago,
specifically from Venezuela, El Salvador, Latin
America, but also from countries really all around
the world. And they had arrived via the southern
border. But I think. That already existed in
a public health sort of world where you were
concerned about the situation that existed. I
mean, many folks were actually living out on
the streets. They did not have a place that they
could stay. The shelters were overcrowded and
were not able to accommodate people. This idea
of, you know, sort of the National Guard being
deployed ice roaming through the streets. I mean,
it's just been totally disastrous because I think
you saw a very organized effort from the community
really pushing back on this idea of using the
United States military or increase in sort of
federal officers like ICE. And we even saw actually
somebody who I've met before, one of our, an
older woman, she was. In an emergency department,
there were some folks that came through. They
did not necessarily identify who they were, but
I think the presumption is that they were likely
ICE officers, and they were trying to arrest
somebody who was in the hospital. And in the
process, she got arrested because she was asking
for them to show a badge or a warrant, and then
they were able to sort of arrest her. The other
thing that we're hearing take place is local
leaders and aspiring, I think, elected officials.
There's one person, her name is... Kat Abugazela.
She's going to be running for Congresswoman Jan
Schakowsky's district. Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky
is retiring. And she actually, there's a video
of her getting body slammed while she's protesting,
I believe, at an ICE detention center. And she
now today announced, or I think yesterday, that
the FBI, the Department of Justice, is going
to be charging her and six others with a federal
crime. And so this is becoming a very politicized
thing. I think we're seeing it play out. I think
there's a couple of different motivations, especially
when it comes to whether you're talking about
fighting crime via the National Guard, which
will not work. I mean, it's not going to be something
that I think. The city of Chicago will see a
decrease in crime or a decrease in the murder
rate. I mean, these are all issues that are,
I think, very important to everybody that lives
in the city of Chicago. But I don't think anybody
thinks that we should be using the National Guard
to address it. It doesn't make sense. I mean,
they don't know the streets of Chicago. They
don't know the community. You're putting them
in a very vulnerable position. Many of them who
are here in Chicago don't look like they want
to be here. You know, so it's just you feel like
you're sort of in this game of chess between
all these different politicians. who are playing
with American lives. The other thing is Tom Holman,
who's in charge now of ICE. You know, there's
one thing I will say. He needs numbers. You need
numbers. And so what you'll see, and I think
what almost every American who you ask about
this seems to be against it, is this guy's got
to produce. number of people that he's deported
or number of people that he's arrested. Well,
the best way to do that are the people that you
have on file or that the people that are going
through the system currently, because you know
where they live, you know where their family's
at, you know where they work. And so you go after
them first. That's why you're seeing some of
these really... difficult scenes where somebody's
like wife just delivered and this guy's been
here and it's because they know where these folks
are and that's an easy way to get the numbers
up it's an easy way to say this quarter we deported
more people than any other president ever and
then the next quarter we're going to hit these
numbers as well and so you have this weird sort
of you know the government and its ability to
sort of do things to curb the rights of individuals
seems to be getting bigger and bolder and at
the same time you don't really see any sort of
leadership pushing back against that in a way
that unites people. I think there's been several
major things that have happened in this country
where we saw the lack of leadership has only
sort of instigated things. And I'll give you
one quick example. I thought when Charlie Kirk
was assassinated, that there was a moment in
this country where if you had a really good leader,
somebody would step up and say, okay, the way
we're doing things is wrong. This is not working.
Political violence is becoming more and more
omnipresent in our everyday lives. It's happening
all the place. Charlie was a very polarizing
figure. He practices politics in a certain way.
And there are a lot of people who did not like
what he had to say. But in this moment, it's
important to recognize this as... something that
has crossed the line in a way that we have to
get back from. And I didn't see that at all from
anybody. Nobody did that. Nobody stepped up and
said, it's time for leadership. It's time to
come together. Whether it was firebombing Governor
Josh Shapiro's house in Pennsylvania, or somebody
assassinating Charlie Kirk on a college campus,
or the two Minnesota politicians who were murdered
because of some, you know, a political opponent.
So I think it's a lack of leadership and we're
seeing it play out on the streets of Chicago.
One of my law enforcement friends gave me a really
interesting insight. He's a former gang unit,
you know, very, very well respected, travels
all over the country speaking. And he was talking
about, you know, I think no one, none of us are
on the streets are going to push back against
the fact that there are. you know, there's a
huge amount of violence. And if you look at it,
you know, in the Western developed world, as
far as our statistics, they're awful. In fact,
I just saw, I think we have 10 times the murder
rate of Japan, for example, per capita. I mean,
you know, so as we said, the way we're doing
it is not working, but to your point, he said,
they don't have the national guards, obviously
not going to have the relationship with these
local people that are, you know, they're building
so they can get to. you know the real kind of
head of the snake as it were and then in our
conversation i was also saying well imagine if
a national guardsman shot an american what would
that do to this country and you're putting those
men and women in that that that scenario you
know and all it takes is one person with ill
intent to initiate that and now we're going to
have you know a national issue so i think it's
a horrendous idea and then again with the ice
thing No one is also saying, this is why you
and I talked about this before, the centrist,
the middle common sense voice is by far the most
censored. Because I've said this many times,
I can't stand the extremes to the left and the
extremes to the right. I was reflecting the other
day, I was lauded by the left when I dared speak
up about vaccine mandates with first responders
and doctors and nurses. after they'd been without
PPE and any protection for a year, and all of
a sudden they're being called murderers. I got
lauded for suggesting that underlying illnesses,
obesity, et cetera, smoking, were a massive contributor
to COVID, the deaths. How dare you? Again, so
apparently I'm right -wing then. Then all of
a sudden, now you stand up to, hey, maybe tens
of thousands of children being murdered is a
bad thing. And now all of a sudden, oh, you must
be left -wing whatever. And so this is what's
so ridiculous with the immigration. Firstly,
of course, if people are over here with ill intent
from other countries, you absolutely should be
shipping them off and sending them back to where
they came from. No one is going to dispute that.
But that's not what we're seeing. We're even
seeing now U .S. citizens being detained. So
this is the overreach. It's not about that everyone
thinks the borders should be wide open and everyone
thinks that anyone that comes in the country
should be able to do whatever they want, run
around raping and pillaging. No. But where is
that line in the sand where you say, OK, now
we're getting into government overreach and this
is happening all over the place and every level
that we're seeing? Yeah, and I would rephrase
it, too. I don't think that we would call our
I don't I don't think centrist is the right word.
I would say there's sort of a values based approach
to how we want our society to look. We have these
certain values. We have a priority that is human
life and human dignity. And I think you're totally
spot on. It's like the more extreme you are with
these identity politics, you stop critically
thinking about how am I affecting the other human
beings that are here? And you start losing all
of it. You don't get a chance to have a nuanced
discussion where you can learn about facts and
also respect each individual for who they are.
came to mind. There has been National Guard that
have killed Americans before. This happened in
our country, and it was during the Vietnam War
and the anti -war protests. It happened at Kent
State... It happened at a Kent State shooting
in 1970. There was National Guard deployed. Anti
-Vietnam protests. It was clearly bad policy
in this country in terms of engaging in the Vietnam
War. There were an incredible amount of bloodshed.
And everyday Americans wanted to protest that.
And the National Guard was used to crowd control,
which is not why the National Guard exists. You
don't need the National Guard to do that. And
you had a tragic incident that took place. I
think six or seven people were killed. And so
that's one thing that I'll say. And then the
other thing about this, too, is I think I spoke
to... Both two young men, Mahmoud Khalil and
Mohsen Madawi, who both were students at Columbia
earlier this year. And one was a green card holder.
The other was in the process of getting his citizenship
here in the United States. And this whole. process
when I say it's all become so politicized and
it's trying to underscore politicians. Both of
those gentlemen were detained. Now they're out
on bail, but they're going to be in this weird
moment here where there may be a precedent established
for this country where if somebody says something
critical about the current government or about
the current government's policies, then they
are at risk of being deported, arrested, or whatever
it is. not a value that we want this country
to espouse. Not if we think that we have the
greatest president at this time, or we think
that this is the greatest country in the world.
It does not mean that I don't really like what
this person is saying. And so I'm going to use
the system in a way to punish them. There's a
word for that. Other countries do that, but they
tend to be authoritarian regimes where individuals
have no rights whatsoever. And I'm really worried
about that because today it is... you know, a
Republican president who's doing it to who he
believes are leftists. But I promise tomorrow
it will be a Democratic president who will be
doing it to conservatives that they feel are
whatever, you know, saying things that they don't
like. You cannot weaponize the system. Once you
do that, the system is at risk of collapsing.
Yeah, and we saw that. And I think that's the
point is that you get each of these camps when
you happen to say something morally courageous
in the middle that, oh, you must be from that
other one. And we saw massive overreach during
the pandemic, you know, telling people they can't
leave their homes. know when again when we look
at it back back now and we reflect there were
groups that were definitely vulnerable and there
were lots of groups that were going to have a
kind of a shitty time with the cold and then
they're going to be okay again that's the reality
so it's not a left or right thing it's it's again
it's a complete abuse of power thing yeah totally
i mean and again uh when you are framing it in
a this side versus that side, we actually do
a disservice to those vulnerable populations.
We do a disservice to everybody who is going
to be affected by whatever policies are being
implemented. Because at the end of the day, whether
it's public health or whether it's government
services or whether it's just trying to be in
a safer, healthier society, if you cannot get
into the details or the weeds because somebody's
saying, oh, you must be this kind of guy or you
must think this way. I mean, we're screwing over
not just everybody that lives in the society,
but future generations. I mean, it's just a bad
way to go about discourse and dialogue. I just
made a video a few days ago on social media,
and I was just pulling out how much money a lot
of these industries, their products kill. millions
of people how much they spent on politicians.
And I use a 25 -year span just because I was
like, all right, well, let's go to kind of beginning
of the year, pre -9 -11, so we can look at the
war, we can look at obesity, we can look at all
things. And each time it was billions of dollars
to weapons companies, to pharmaceutical companies,
to fast food companies, from those industries.
And the death toll was millions and millions
and millions of Americans from cigarettes, from
obesity. And then the two trillion dollars that
the Iraq and Afghanistan war cost the American
taxpayer. So my whole thing is we've got these
ICE agents running around and I can't imagine
still being a firefighter and having some twat
in a balaclava running up and trying to take
my patient without giving any ID. like you'd
have a bunch of firefighters being arrested from
knocking out an ice agent i mean you just it's
not bravado it's like you know you you think
that you know that was a gang member or something
if you're not going to identify yourself we're
assuming you're a bad person not a good person
right so right but you know where is the conversation
of addressing the underlying issues and if we
have all these companies that perfect example
the fda approves OxyContin that creates this
opioid crisis that we're still losing 100 ,000
Americans from every single year. But then they
deny MDMA -led psychotherapy, which is showing
to be incredibly effective for PTSD and all the
things that first responders and veterans suffer
from. If there's not a bigger red flag, I don't
know what is. And the reason that a lot of these
people are fleeing Mexico and some of the El
Salvador. is the ripple effect of drug prohibition,
something that was forced onto the world after
the 30s when we got it from Harry Anslinger.
Where's the conversation of the decriminalization
of addiction that's been so successful in other
countries? Where's the conversation of all the
proactive things that we make Americans healthier?
We stopped turning our streets into gang war
zones in the first place. And a lot of these
people from countries don't even feel the need
to leave because we haven't disrupted their environment.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really important
point because it goes back to what are what's
kind of what is the base of or the values that
are forcing you or at least compelling you to
do something? Where are they coming from? And
so if you are if your motivations here are tied
to pharmaceutical companies and them turning
a profit, well, then you can see how we can get
sort of all of these different narcotics flooded
into our system. You can even see how how at
one point our government was encouraging us to
use. Use the pain scale. And if the patient was
still reporting high amount of pain, make sure
you're hitting them with morphine or Norco or
Oxycontin or whatever the narcotic is. But on
the flip side, as you mentioned, if there's promising
developments in psychedelics and MDMA and all
of these. All of these different new modalities,
new therapies that could address a really tough
problem, then you'd wonder why are regulations
suddenly stiffening up? Is it because somebody
can't profit as much off of this? And then again,
it goes back to it's a disservice to these vulnerable
people that we're dealing with. PTSD, major depression,
bipolar disorder, schizophrenia. We don't have
great answers for these mental health problems.
you know we don't have somebody who's sitting
there and viewing it from sort of the the human
based perspective this person is struggling with
this addiction instead of they're addicted to
this drug they're addicted to narcotics they
made poor choices they're a bad person You know,
you just totally internalize all those things
to them. And you're not looking at it as this
is a crisis that's affecting our entire society.
We're losing such a potentially productive member
of this society. They are losing their life.
It has generational impacts. If you had people
thinking like that instead of, you know, oh,
wow, whatever this pharmaceutical company's name
is, Pfizer could make potentially a billion dollars
off of this. And then once I exit out of government,
I could potentially be a consultant or government
affairs sort of position. I mean, this is it's
just nonsense. And I mean, again, I'm just very
disappointed in the lack of leadership across
the board on a lot of these issues. And it's
because, you know, the humanity is lost in all
of this. I just released today an episode with
Dr. Todd Otten, who is a physician. He's written
an incredible book actually called Ripple of
Change, where it's him and then one of his patients.
two perspective look at the you know the burnout
in health care itself but also the kind of you
know the spiraling the the nosedive if you like
of american health care and so again when you
look at supply and demand if we have a nation
that is 70 obese or overweight 40 obese Of course,
there's going to be a drain on the health care.
Of course, the paramedics and EMTs of the world
are going to be just completely burned out. Of
course, there aren't enough beds in the hospitals
and doctors and nurses are seeing suicides and
overdoses themselves. With that lens, talk to
me about your world again. I think I don't know
if we even really dove into health care the last
couple of conversations. What is the state of
American health care? Because in my perspective,
it seems like if we don't make a rapid change
on the health of the nation soon, we're not going
to have an American health care. Yeah, I mean,
and, you know, I hate to kind of sound like a
like a, you know, almost like this broken record
player, but it's not person focused. It's not
patient focused. It's not human focused. It's
services based. So you're coming through the
emergency department, you're coming to the hospital.
It's all about what services can we provide?
What procedures can we do? What surgeries can
we bill for? And that is a disastrous, disastrous
strategy that is not working. The system is broken,
but we just keep pumping money into it. This
idea that, you know. The time that you should
be focused on your health should be when you're
having chest pains after you're shoveling the
snow after the first winter snow. You know, this
is a disaster. This is how people develop the
heart failure. The fact that we will watch somebody
continuously. get, you know, their numbers are
going upwards on, you know, in terms of their
BMI and their weight and all of these things.
And all we're doing is saying, well, now you
have diabetes. So these are the medicines that
you should be prescribed as opposed to saying,
hey, here's some nutritional education for you.
Here's some things that you should be focused
on. Here's why lifestyle and exercise are so
important. We're not doing these things. We're
not actually looking at it holistically. I'm
not thinking about the body and the human being
in front of me. I'm thinking about it as here's
the heart, here's the liver. Here's the weight.
Here's the brain. You know, here are all of these
different things. And I see it every single day
in our emergency department. We are the hospital
that I work out in Chicago. We are one of the
busiest emergency departments in the country.
We're a trauma center. But we we are not able.
I'm not seeing patients coming through. Who are
these? healthy people wanting to get checked
up on we're seeing people who have either never
seen a doctor before or are seeing a doctor but
are not able or are not given the right information
to make the right choices in their lives and
i'm watching as everything that we're doing to
them it's just caught the cost that's on not
just them but the entire system is skyrocketing
i mean I think modern medicine is miraculous,
but I think that the way that it's practiced
is really just, it falls short of where we could
be and what we should be doing. I mean, you think
about it, I think in this way, I think. Our primary
care doctors, who I think are probably the most
important part of this system, they're not incentivized
to spend time with the person in front of them
and be able to say, look, man, I know you're
smoking and you're smoking a pack per day. And
if you don't cut this out now, it's going to
chew up your lungs and you're going to develop
this. have horrific disease called COPD or pulmonary
fibrosis, or you're going to have coronary artery
disease. And then one day you're going to clutch
your chest and it's going to be a heart attack
and it'll be too late at that point. They're
not incentivized to talk to somebody longer than
10 or 15 minutes. They're not incentivized. They're
not being paid to sit there and talk to you about
your diet, to talk to you about going to the
gym, to talk to you about getting outside and
getting some sunlight. They're not incentivized.
What they are incentivized to do is to be able
to get some blood work. look at the lab tests
and be like, wow, you know, your kidney function
is worse than it was six months ago. Let's follow
it and check it again in six months. Let's have
you go see a kidney specialist. All of these
different things that are not actually to looking
at somebody in totality. And what you're seeing
is people are spending a lot more money. People
are getting a lot. People are sicker and much
less healthy. They're on more medications. They're
gaining weight. They're not. There's no sort
of. actual education to physicians, to nurses,
to healthcare providers, or to the patients.
None of us are getting educated on like the holistic
part of this. None of us are actually treating
the mind, body, and soul. It's just one bit of
the body that we're treating when we see people.
I mean, I see that too. And it's interesting
because when you get into the proactive world,
that's where you're at. You're at nutrition.
You're at, you know. literally relationships
time in nature in exercise um sleep quality none
of that is focusing on the renal system or the
cardiovascular system it's the whole human being
it was interesting when the conversation with
todd firstly he alluded that um to the fact that
20 of our gdp in this country is on health care
so i've said this many many times that we don't
need more money from people you know they're
already spending so much and if you look at it
side by side with the nhs When you pay taxes
in the UK, even though, and I'll get to this
in a second, the NHS is struggling now itself.
The NHS, when I was younger, it was cheaper to
have it in the English system. And when you go
in, as I'm sure you understand, the first thing
you're not asked is your social security number.
You're just like, well, what's wrong? Okay, let's
get you fixed. And then when you leave after
having cancer or getting hit by a bus, you're
not waiting for a bill that's going to make you
have to sell your house. You just go home and
you focus on healing. But where the NHS, I think,
is struggling is because they've allowed privatization
to come in. And then also they've allowed the
British people to get fatter and sicker. And
so now you're crushing the system. So if you
actually turned it around and you invested on
making the nation healthier, and there's so many
things that should have come out of COVID, the
bolstering of local farmers to grow organic food
locally, putting PE programs back in schools,
real food in schools, getting the soda machines
out, pedestrianizing downtowns. You could make
such a huge dent. And then there is the money
for all the other things. Because if you're bleeding
money on sick people, then the inverse is also
true. So if you've got a healthy population,
you've got lots of beds, lots of doctors, lots
of nurses for everyone that needs help at that
time, whether it's a pregnant woman about to
give birth, whether it's an elderly person in
palliative care, whether it's someone who is
young when they're fighting cancer. But, you
know, at this point now, we're drowning. And
even with the time. We're talking to Todd. I'm
like, well, imagine this. If you said a doctor
can have 30 minutes, how many 15 minute sessions
will that save you down the road? Because you're
actually starting to proactively address issues.
So it's a complete false economy looking at it
so short sightedly that just come in, we'll give
you a pill and then leave. I'll see you in six
months. Yeah, I mean, it's and it's actually
like it's pretty tragic, too. I think, you know,
one thing that I think about is even, you know,
there now what you'll see is we kind of talk
about like being extremes. You can see extremes
on the other end, too, because it's clearly this
is such a disastrous moment. I think a lot of
people that I talk to nowadays, I'll ask them,
you know, you're supposed to be taking these
blood pressure pills. You're supposed to be taking
these diabetes medicines. And they'll sell me
something, especially from my community here.
They'll say like, well, I just don't want to,
I don't want to take medicines. I don't want
to keep taking medicines. And it's because they're
hearing like medicine, you know, medicines, pharmaceutical
companies, you know, that all that stuff is bad
for you, bad for you. And then you'll find them
like taking this wonder pill that they saw on
Amazon after they saw a TikTok thing. And you
say, what is even in this? And they can't even
tell you that. And I think it goes back to the
essence of the problem. And that is that we're
just not practicing this correctly. And I think
you gain sort of the trust of folks, the credibility
when you are earnestly like looking at somebody
and actually trying to make a difference in their
lives as opposed to saying, oh, one plus two
is three. So that means you should be getting,
you know, whatever this is. You know, you're
just looking at numbers. You're not looking at
the person in front of you. And I feel like people
pick up on that pretty quickly. You know, blood
pressure, your blood pressure will be raised
for a good part of your life and you won't feel
it. Um, it will not have any symptoms, but we
know how dangerous that this can be. And so if
I'm sitting there with a patient in front of
me and the first time, the first time we try
to address their blood pressure, it's basically
me saying, I'm going to start you on this, this
pill that you're going to be taking for the rest
of your life. How can I expect them to just buy
into how I want to work on their health from
in other aspects? Why not? We talk about, Hey,
can you take an opportunity to walk? 30 minutes
a day, three times a week. And can you check
your blood pressure at home and look at what
you're eating? Think about what you're eating
and try to cut out these things at this time.
That plan, somebody will say, okay, this person
is not just resorting to, I want to write you
amlodipine or hydrochlorothiazide or whatever
the medicine is. This person is interested actually
in preventative care and preventing me from having
some sort of stroke or heart attack and not,
and I hate to kind of bring this in, but this
is a reality. And not that if they miss something
and they don't write the right medicine, then
I'll hire a lawyer and I'll sue them. Because
I think that's all a byproduct of the same issue
here. It's like you've created a system where
it's like we always want to blame somebody and
then you want to squeeze them for as much money
as possible. So that person is not practicing
in a way that they should be practicing. you
know, they're not doing it. They're, they're
all, they're doing it. We call it scared medicine
is what we'll call it, but you know, they're
practicing this thing where it's kind of like,
Hey, I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to
be doing. I'm throwing all this stuff at you
and I'm writing it down so that you don't come
back and blame me when you do have a stroke,
because we never addressed the fact that you're
eating fried processed food all the time, three
times a day for 20 years, you know? So I think,
you know, I think these are all, you know, you
can just see sort of the side effects of how
horrible things uh will continue to deteriorate
this is not we're not sort of addressing any
real issue we're just continuing to shovel it
further down the road you had said the word trust
i think that's a big part where especially as
we let's say today, you know, whoever the person
is that stands on the podium and says, we're
going to change the nation's health. You know,
we're going to start, you know, make America
healthy again. I think I heard that about a year
ago, but I heard fuck all about it ever since.
But anyway, I digress. You know, they were going
to do that. But there's still obviously be a
large need for pharmaceuticals for a long time
until we got to the kind of Scandinavian level
where most of the population is very healthy.
But where there isn't a conversation with these
drugs is, as you alluded to, we'll put you on
hypertension meds because you're walking around
at 120 over 190. That's not very healthy. You
might stroke out at any moment. So we need to
get that down. But the goal is to get you off
these pills. So let's get your, you know, let's
work on, you know, your, your nutrition and your
exercise levels, because we want to take you
off. Same with the mental health ones. If you
absolutely need some sort of antidepressant or
whatever, you know, version it is. All right,
well then let's get you to a point where you
can sit through some counseling sessions, but
let's try and work to get you off these pills.
But you don't see that. As you said, you're literally,
and I've heard firefighters, middle -aged healthy
firefighters say, well, I'm going to be on statins
forever. My doctor told me. I was like, well,
and that's it. That's that you just took that
as gospel. So, so yeah, yeah. I think, you know,
that, that conversation too is not demonizing
all the drugs, but the way that they're used.
And I had a Swedish psychiatrist and he said
that they don't let their patients stay on anything
longer than six months. Well, I mean, over here
at a zero to that, at least. Yeah. Yeah. No,
I mean, I think, you know, I think, and it goes
back to, you know, when it comes to healthcare,
There is a lot of science behind it, but there's
a lot of art. And I think we're neglecting the
art part about this because you cannot paint
with a wide brush for every single person who
comes in with diabetes and depression. Every
single person has their own unique set of circumstances,
their own unique biology, their DNA. And so it's
a balancing act of figuring out what's going
to work for them. father and his grandfather
and your great -grandfather and your great -great
-grandfather all have gotten type 2 diabetes,
you know, very early on. And all of you are overweight
with a BMI of 35. And, you know, you've got some
bad genes there. And so, you know, you just sort
of address it thinking that it's going to be
okay taking insulin and making sure your sugar
is under a level. It's not going to work. Something
has got to drastically change, and it's my job
to be able to communicate that to you and to
say it in a way that you understand and to work
with you on that. I think we're just not doing
a good job. I think it has to start very early.
It starts in the schools. It starts in educating
our children just about wellness and health and,
you know, everything, whether it's mental health
or physical health. I mean, we've got to do a
better job. We've got to make people more informed.
And I feel it in the emergency department all
the time. If I know I've got six people waiting
for me, some guy chopped his finger off. This
other person fell off of a skateboard and his
ankle is facing the other way. You know, I know
that I've got such a limited time. I can't spend
those three minutes telling somebody that. their
smoking is killing them. You know, I can't like,
and they can tell also that I've got one foot
out the door because I've got so many people
that I've got to kind of address, right? And
so it's, you know, that interaction has so much
potential and we're just kind of leaving it at
zero. And I think there's ways that we can sort
of address that, especially if, you know, especially
if we're starting early and we're starting in
the schools and it's a part of, you know, it's
not just a part of medical education. or nursing
school or for first responders or EMS where,
hey, we're going to teach you about nutrition.
It's also a part of, you know, the primary school
teachers, you know, somebody who's teaching second
grade. She's able to kind of teach her kids a
little bit about nutrition. You know, it's just
like a part of the curriculum as you move forward.
I promise you in a generation or two generations,
we're going to see a very different America.
Absolutely. Quick side note. Did you watch The
Pit? You know what? I watched two episodes and
I had to stop because of how... legit of a show
that is. I felt like I was on shift, like the
same stresses. I mean, it's so good. I was so
shocked by that, to be honest with you. Like
that was great. Have you watched the full season?
I have, so I won't give anything away, but I
know they're already, it was so successful that
they're already shooting a second one, which
I think is going to be out in January. But that
was, well, I remember one of the comments I saw
when they first posted about it is, I'm a physician
and I kept waiting for them to mess it up. you
know, to be so wrong on the technical direction.
And they said, and I ended up watching the whole
thing. So I agree completely. I mean, even what
I thought they did a great job of is also they
showed sort of hospital administration and their
role in the emergency department. They show you
kind of like the interaction of like how somebody
gets to the ER and what happens. And I mean,
like the dynamic with pediatric patients and
parents. I mean, I just thought it was incredible.
And it really made me, I was like, wait, I can't,
I'm supposed to be off. I'm not going to be back
on shift. So it was really good. Yeah. Firstly,
I was really pleased that they showed the woeful,
you know, overcrowding within the hospital. Because
when COVID hit, you had all those dickhead journalists
out there being like, well, I'm in the hospital.
And there's even people waiting in the hallways.
Have you never been to an inner city hospital?
There's always people waiting in the hallways.
This is the problem. Um, the other thing is I'm
actually turning my most recent book into a TV
show. And, uh, I love the fact that the pit was
so successful. I think it was the most successful
show this year, if I'm not mistaken, because
what it will do, and it's not just modern day
firefighters as like a multi -generational trauma
story, but it will show, well, who are these
people that bring these patients in? Because,
you know, that's another entire story that we're
just not well represented, you know, the on television
and film, they haven't done a good job of telling
the firefighter paramedic story at all. Oh. Yeah,
literally. I mean, I know there was Chicago Fire,
but I don't know if you watched that at all.
That was more of a drama about relationships
more than it was about the actual work, you know,
and like what happens and how that takes a toll
on you as a person and on your family. So, yeah,
you're right. Totally. One last thing, you know,
I love. bringing in innovation to some of the
issues that we're struggling with at the moment.
And for example, on the first responder side,
the integrated nurse navigation with the 911
system, I think is genius. We have a lot of non
-emergent calls. I know that we tell everyone
to call 911 for everything now. So to have a
three -tier system and be able to offload the
non -emergent calls to urgent care clinics. Optical
and dental offices and all those kind of things
I think is amazing. I just had a guest, Josh
Clemente, back on the show. And he's got an AI
company, AI and blood tests and glucose testing,
continuous glucose testing. And the whole point
is to really have a proactive health model. And
he made an interesting comment. He said, doctors
are not supposed to be treating chronic disease.
They're supposed to be there for the childbirths
and the traumas and all these things. And there's
so much now with this technology that can help
people, you know, somewhat monitor their own
health, you know, as far as their blood work.
And so I thought that was a really interesting,
you know, AI innovation on the horizon. Not that
it's replacing doctors by any means, but not
waiting a full year and going, oh, my God, my
blood work is terrible or my glucose is through
the roof or whatever it is, but actually the
patient being empowered to actually start. being
in control of their own health. Yeah. I mean,
I think that's the key. I mean, I think you get
better outcomes. I mean, I think from a... like
a healthcare perspective, it's always about making
sure that an individual has, that you're able
to protect their ability to be independent, their
ability to be informed. And, you know, the word
you used was empowered. I think that's perfect.
You know, even if it's like a, you know, somebody
who has some sort of traumatic injury or something
that takes place where they may not, you know,
they have reduced functionality, you want to
improve the function so that they can be independent.
And so I think. These models, as long as they
can bring it back to someone who feels that they
are, that the awareness is there and that they're
informed and that they're able to make decisions
with all of the information as opposed to just
being dependent on another human being, like
on their doctor to tell them what to do. I mean,
how many times have you heard somebody say? Or
what do you think is best? You know, I think
that's a tough question. I think, you know, for
physicians, we'll hear that all the time. It's
like, well, what do you recommend, doctor? Should
I do the surgery or should I do the treatment?
I think the more that we're able to give people
the tools that they need to feel like they are
totally aware of what's happening, you know,
in their bodies, what's happening, you know,
their metrics with how they're moving along in
life with their health. I think it's going to
be awesome. I hope it radicalizes the field.
I mean, we're using it on the other side. We
use AI to help document our conversations now.
Like we have, you know, we're able to have a
conversation with the patient. It's able to catch
up on things that you would forget as you're
heading back to your computer to write down.
Like, wait, when did they say was the last time
they ate something? Or, you know, did they say
they took their medicine today? Like it's able
to hear all of that. It's able to synthesize
it. It's able to also kind of spit back out at
you. Like, here's some of the things that you
should think about. Which is, I think overall,
if this is something that can help folks feel
like they have a better grasp of what's happening
to them, and they don't feel lost, and they don't
feel like they're being dictated to, and they
don't feel like they have to be dependent on
someone else, I think it's going to be hopefully
a good thing. If I was still in, I would hope
that it would also help you fill in all the pertinent
negatives, because I used to hate that. They
scaremongered in paramedic school, like if you
don't write a thesis. then some lawyers and I'm
like, no, if, if, if I didn't write it down,
all else was within normal limits. That means
everything else. But to be able to have that,
you know, it's a rolled ankle. Like you said,
you're not obviously taking breath sounds and
you know, these other things, no, everything
else was fine. We looked at the injury. And do
you know what that's caused? I mean, that means
nobody reads anybody's notes. I'm not looking
at the EMS sheet. The doctor who I admit to is
not looking at my note. The nurse is not looking
at the nurse that she's getting it handed off
from because there's so much superfluous information
that's just regimented that you've got to write
down. I can't, you know, I'm not going to scroll
through three pages of things where I'm trying
to figure out, you know, somebody in front of
me who's yelling in pain. So, you know, I think
it's produced a negative effect. you know, this
idea of like having to go through and hopefully
AI can fix the over documentation that we see.
I mean, there's a problem with over documentation.
There's a problem with under documentation. And
so you hope it can bridge that gap. I hope that
that's something that, you know, will produce
better care and better healthcare providers.
Absolutely. Well, the last time that we spoke
was April and now we'll kind of shift to, to
Gaza. At that point, I think we, you know, we,
you were just starting to see the, the kind of
ripple effect of starvation. Cause I think if
I remember serves me right, you were talking
about, you know, this was, it was a slow process
that as you're shutting it down, you know, it's
not like people are just suddenly dropping like
flies that there's, there's weeks and weeks before
you see deaths from that. So kind of walk us
through as far as, you know, that continuing,
cause obviously that didn't suddenly stop after,
after our conversation. What is the impact even
as we speak now? And then obviously we can get
to the ceasefire and some other things. Yeah.
I mean, I think there's a couple of things that
I think are important to recognize here. First
is that what was really frustrating is you saw
world leaders, you saw different governments
start to, you know, I think. recognize the concern
surrounding the forced starvation that was being
inflicted on the Palestinians in Gaza. This was
a very intentional policy that was being implemented
from October 2023. And exactly like you said,
you don't get to famine. You don't get to severe
acute malnutrition. You don't get to the point
where children are starving to death. That doesn't
happen in a couple of weeks. It doesn't happen
in a month. It was a very strategic military
policy being implemented by Israel, so much so
that they were counting the tons of food they
were letting in. They were counting the calories
per Palestinian in Gaza. And so if you look at
the World Food Program, you look at any UN agency,
you look at Save the Children or Oxfam or any
humanitarian organization that was on the ground
in Gaza, they were warning about this from late
2023, early 2024. And so what were we seeing
on the ground? We were seeing 70 % of pregnant
women were delivering premature babies with complications.
We are talking about... Every three out of four
pregnancies where the kid is coming early, that's
already a nightmare. But it's occurring in the
environment of American fighter jets with Israeli
pilots dropping American bombs with no fuel,
with the access to care being cut off or limited
because the presence of the Israeli military
is beginning an offensive in this city in Gaza.
And so we were putting. vulnerable people like
pregnant women, breastfeeding women, children
between the ages of six months and five years
old, people with diabetes or high blood pressure,
elderly folks, people who have been injured earlier
in this aggression. We were seeing them start
to show these kind of signs of starvation. And
you're looking at kids whose growth are stunted,
whose immune systems are weakened. And so they're
getting infected with the cold or some stomach
bug, and it's taking forever for them to recover
from that. You're seeing developmental delays.
You're seeing children who are being held out
of school for this entire time period. but i
go back to what my frustration was is this didn't
happen in a vacuum but suddenly you've got world
leaders speaking out and saying the hunger in
gaza is unacceptable and we have to get food
we have to get food we have to get food you know
and it goes back to the earlier part of our conversation
you're not addressing the root cause of this
problem there is a suffocating siege on the gaza
strip and there is a military that's operating
in a way that's trying to make sure life is not
sustainable Who cares if I bring in food for
three consecutive days and somebody is able to
get three square meals if I'm just going to cut
off that food a week later? This is not rocket
science. The child who was dealing with all of
the issues of malnutrition, if I just feed them
for a few days, I have not addressed the problem
if they're going to go back to being hungry the
following week. They are still going to be at
risk of death and complication. And we still
saw... the hospitals in Gaza be targeted. We
saw the doctors continue to be abducted, the
nurses and the first responders be killed or
abducted or wounded. And so you got to look at
it 360 degrees. The international body that declares
famine in all of these different areas across
the globe, they declared a famine in Gaza. They
said there are – they said this in July where
they were like – they released this report. And
the response from the Israelis was this report
is garbage. It's political or whatever it is.
And the rest of the world was like there's got
to be food that enters. There's got to be food
that enters. This sort of report is supposed
to compel the international community to say
– Everyone come together, tell the Israelis to
open the borders and allow aid to enter. The
Israelis are saying, well, if we allow aid to
enter, some of the aid gets stolen. Who cares?
Keep the aid running in. It does not matter at
that point. Who cares if some of this aid is
getting stolen? Who cares if it's being looted?
The reason that it's being looted and stolen
in the first place is because you have made it
such a rare. and valuable commodity that the
way to counter that is to just let a bunch of
bananas and apples and bread in and so we were
putting these people in gaza in this position
where they were essentially starving and that
the local markets had increased the prices by
five six seven fold nobody's working anymore
because the whole place is being leveled to the
ground and The other thing that I don't think
people have had a chance to think about is the
lack of exposure to different food groups of
the population. I mean, we're talking about kids
for two years did not have any animal protein
whatsoever. You know, you are talking about them
getting some bread and every once in a while
they're getting a can of beans or some other
canned foods. I mean, this is, you know, this
is beyond them being starved, which is an assault.
against the against the human body they're also
you know sitting there not being exposed to all
of these different nutritious food groups and
different you know uh items and it's just uh
this this cruelty that was that continued to
surge and people were just talking about let's
let we get more food has to come and we want
to see more food come in well you're not really
you're not going to really address this issue
you're not going to address this problem and
i think um The last thing I'll say about that
is, you know, the things were getting so intense
in Gaza. We were seeing more than 100 people
every single day be killed in some sort of bombing
or some attack or some tank shelling. And we
were seeing all of these kids that were being
born in. so prematurely, they were stuck in the
hospitals that were still partially functioning.
And we're seeing families continue to get displaced.
So they're moving from in this ever shrinking
area where the Gaza Strip keeps getting smaller,
because the Israeli military footprint keeps
getting larger and expanding its operations.
And so, you know, smaller areas overcrowded,
you know, families on top of each other in these
areas very close to the Mediterranean Sea. And
you there was no end in sight. I mean, there
was nothing that was changing with respect to
access. I have been rejected in March 13th, June
19th, and most recently, October 9th. And I am
not unique by any means. 50 % of international
humanitarians who are trying to enter into Gaza
over this time period, the last six months where
everything was collapsing, were being rejected
by the Israelis. We're talking about Americans,
Brits, Europeans. We're getting rejected for
no reason. At the same time, you're watching
physicians like myself. I'm flying to Jordan
trying to get in. And in my bags, I'm trying
to smuggle baby formula and specialized baby
formula. And when I'm getting rejected, that
baby formula is not entering, of course. And
it's not like it's any sort of impactful contribution,
right? It's only just I'm coming in. I'm going
to I can get you a couple of bottles of baby
formula here and maybe we'll be good for a week
for the six kids. that are in this neonatal intensive
care unit. And we're not able to get folks out
of Gaza either, for example, who needed somebody
who has, I know there's a girl right now in Gaza,
her name is Mariam. She's struggling with a severe
gluten allergy. And so the flour that you're
bringing in that keeps coming in through the
aid, it doesn't do anything for her. It has the
gluten in it and she's sitting there losing weight.
We're watching her become skin and bones, just
agonizing, agonizing. days and weeks of her life.
And so nothing changed, right? Like the Israelis
are still very much in control of allowing things
to enter and it's not enough. People are not
able to exit because there's a suffocating siege.
And then the international community has been
crippled in a way that's not able to mount an
effective emergency response. I can't get food
in. I can't get doctors in. I can't get nurses
in. I can't get humanitarians in. And I sure
as hell can't get any sort of fuel, clean water
or proper tents in either. Total catastrophic
disaster where all aspects of life were being
attacked. I was so proud to see the Irish step
up so, so early. And we talked about this. I
mean, my analogy of what happened in Gaza is,
you know, when I was young, the IRA were bombing
the mainland and it was an occupation. Like,
you know, the British were in Northern Ireland
and, you know, I... I don't care how long it's
been. To me, the answer is to let Ireland be
its own country. That's my personal opinion.
I don't understand why we need to occupy that,
but at the same time, have a great relationship
because we're two tiny rocks in the middle of
the ocean, have some sort of overarching name
for all four of us together working collaboratively,
but everyone having their own. But back then,
I grew up next to, I probably told you this in
one of the other ones, next to an MOD base. military
base so i literally when i was young we were
sweeping the car for bombs before i went to school
so felt that but it would be like that one of
the mainland bombings which happened all the
time shopping centers you know women children
that then we go in the british and basically
destroy the entire city of belfast The world
would not have tolerated that. Not at all. And
so, you know, the Irish people collectively have
been one of the earliest voices and then the
South Africans as well. But, you know, I've been
so disgusted, obviously, with the States, and
we'll get into that in a minute. But even the
UK, like until very, very recently, they were
really no different than the US. Yeah. I mean,
I think I've had a lot of engagement on this.
on this issue with many different countries,
especially the Europeans. I mean, the European
Union is by far the largest trade partner for
the state of Israel. And so you know that there's
an opportunity there to apply some pressure and
to improve conditions by leveraging that very
special relationship. The UK has its paws all
over the situation in Palestine. And one thing
I'll say too is, I think David Lammy, announced
at the UN that he was going to recognize the
state of Palestine. He got this massive applause.
And then there was sort of a delay. And he said,
if the Israelis don't do, you know, XYZ. And
so, you know, for me, it was like this hedging
of bets where you really know that there are
countries that need to step up and use their
relationship in a way that kind of alleviates
this absolute catastrophe that's taking place.
The British, one thing I'll say about them too,
and I don't think people realize just how entangled
all these countries are. Again, the European
Union, so all of these European states, they
are the largest trade partner with Israel by
far. The Israeli economy depends on the Europeans,
for sure. The British... Their spy planes were
instrumental for the Israeli campaign against
Palestinians in Gaza over the last two years.
This genocide is not possible without British
intelligence, without British surveillance. It
doesn't happen. Also without, of course, British
political cover. And then same with comes to
the Germans. They are the second largest arms
supplier. of the israelis where america is of
course number one the australians are providing
parts for their fighter jets even the irish were
you know helping with the transfer of weapons
but i do want to say i think the irish and then
spain in terms of the europeans took the most
uh I think, morally consistent approach in this
entire thing, the entire time. The Irish, I think,
have been very vocal. They've not been afraid
to use rhetoric that at least centers the suffering
of Palestinians. Oftentimes, you won't see that.
People will try to eliminate the suffering of
people because it evokes very visceral responses.
But the Irish were keen on sort of bringing that
up. They were standing in solidarity, of course.
And then they did things like... have children
come to Ireland to get medical treatment, to
be evacuated there. They would always, I think,
bring this up when it comes to the, you know,
with respect to the UN, try to focus on the plight
of children. In fact, I spoke at one of their
events at their mission to the UN in New York
City, and it was about children, and they invited
me to speak there. So I think that sort of moral
consistency has been absent from a large part.
of the Western world. You see Spain has, I think,
also tried to take a more hardline tone, but
you really need major countries like the US,
UK, and Germany. To me, those three have still
been absent from really approaching it from a
morally consistent position. I am watching the
UK shift their position a lot. They're saying
things and they're moving in the right direction,
but the US... I think one of the major concerns,
and I think this is something why you will see
a vigorous defense of the Israelis. When it's
all said and done, this will be referred to as
a genocide. You are talking about... the International
Court of Justice saying that there is a plausible
genocide. Then you watched the International
Criminal Court, the ICC issue arrest warrants
for Benjamin Netanyahu, for Yoav Galant, his
defense minister at the time. You watched UN
special rapporteurs who are independent that
are not being paid for this compile. Hundreds
of pages of reports saying that what the Israelis
did in Gaza is a genocide. You watched the UN
Commission of Inquiry, which spent over a year
getting testimonies, collect evidence, call it
a genocide. You watched humanitarian organizations,
which generally do not want to get involved in
these legal terms, like Doctors Without Borders,
MSF, call it a genocide. Human Rights Watch and
Amnesty International called it a genocide. Israeli
organizations, B'Tselem. And Physicians for Human
Rights Israel called it a genocide. So why is
the U .S. so vehemently opposed to any critique
of Israel? You know, they refer to it in D .C.
as they don't want to have any daylight between
Israel and the United States, especially when
it comes to their support. Why? What's the case
here? One, it's the implication that if the Israelis
are committing genocide, who helped them commit
the genocide? And if we find that all of these
weapons that we're sending are American weapons
and the fighter jets are American fighter jets,
it's really that that sort of accountability
will also eventually come towards you. So I think
there's some resistance there. But then the second
part of this, which is changing in this country
because of people, not because of politicians
or parties, but because of people, is there was
only one approach. to policy foreign policy in
the middle east when it came to israel and that
was unconditional support unconditional support
always support anything they need say yes yes
yes i think you're seeing a movement in this
country on both the left and the right especially
the more populist um the more populism seeps
into our politics where people are like but why
Why, you know, if you're an America first person,
why are we sending in the last two and a half
years, we've sent over 30 billion dollars there
towards weapons. Why are we? taking part in the
starving of children, if you're somebody who
comes from a faith -based background, if you're
on the left and you believe in progressive values,
you can't be progressive except for Palestine.
It doesn't make sense. And so I think you're
noticing people are starting to ask those questions
and get critical of it. And I'll tell you, as
somebody who spent the last two years of their
life traveling from capital to capital, talking
to different international governments that have
tried to bring attention on this, I see that
happening globally. I think if there is no accountability
at the end of the day, as we're in this very
weird, precarious moment, if we're still not
talking about, hey, some things happened here
where we've got to have some sort of accountability.
It bodes very poorly for everybody else, for
the entire world. If we have allowed hospitals
and first responders to just be gunned down as
they're responding to a call, like we saw what
happened with the Palestinian Red Crescent first
responders, when they're responding to a call
and they've got their ambulance and their fire
truck sirens and lights on and they get gunned
down, 15 of them, and nobody is held accountable
for that? Not even the commander who said fire
away. Or you see a six -year -old like Hind Rajab
who's sitting in a car with her entire family
dead around her and an Israeli tank 25 meters
away that blasted 342 bullets into the car. And
we hear her die over six hours. She's bleeding
to death. And we send two ambulance drivers,
Ahmed and Yusuf, to go and save her life. And
they're 100 meters away on a pre -approved Google
map. a route that they were given by the Israelis,
and then a missile hits them and blows up their
ambulance. Nobody's held accountable for either
of those people perishing. So if that doesn't
happen, and I don't have a lot of faith that
it will based on the stances that these governments
have taken over the last two years, then the
next major conflict, whether it's in Europe,
Africa, Asia, Latin America, wherever it is,
will look similar, if not worse. And that's not
a world that we want our children to grow up
in. You know, that's where you're leading to,
you know, the end of times apocalypse like pictures
like we saw in Gaza. Well, what blows me away
is it was two generations ago that Americans
and British, you know, fought, I mean, so selflessly,
so courageously for all the right reasons. Because
I've always said, you know, there are wars. that
are absolutely unavoidable. And they're very,
very few and far between. And then you have all
the other ones that, as we talked earlier about
Vietnam, that we should never have gone to in
the first place. And if you look even behind
the scenes of that, it was more about trade ports
and some of those things than it was ever about
humanitarian. But I just can't imagine what that
generation would think about this. And the fact
that you have the audacity, not you, people have
the audacity. to call opposition of what is going
on anti -Semitism when it's not saying, well,
this is all Jewish people. It's not saying this
is all Israeli people. It's saying those that
are committing the atrocities. I don't think
that every German was behind, you know, all the
things that happened in their country or every
Austrian or every Italian, every Russian. I don't
think every Russian wants to be in the Ukraine
right now. You know, so this is the point is
that right is right and wrong is wrong. And if
you, as we have heard from the rhetoric in this
country, the moment that someone stands up and
says, hey, this is wrong, regardless of the backstory
that you can say, well, they've been fighting
for whatever. Yeah. But then if you go far enough
back, look at how the British impacted that and
all these other countries that have created this
in the first place. But regardless of that, if
the IRA bombed mainland Britain and we came in
and bombed every single part of the city of Belfast,
schools, hospitals, we gunned down first responders.
how would the world respond? Very, very differently
than we're seeing now. So it's up to us, the
people, to stand up and say, enough is enough.
And if there's a tyrant at the helm of our ship,
then what, are we a passenger? No. We are the
reason this ship exists in the first place. That's
right. Yeah. And I think it gets back to when
you talk about accountability, that's how you
are able to avoid... any sort of accusations
or allegations that would derail the conversation.
At the end of the day, what I am looking at in
terms of the last two years, because that is
what I'm hyper focused on right now, is I'm looking
at what's happened to Palestinians in Gaza over
the last two years. I am looking at the military
leadership of the Israeli military, and I'm looking
at the political leadership of the government
that's in power currently. I could care less
about any other details right now. That is who
I am focused on. They are the ones who said,
drop all the bombs. They are the ones who said,
move in and move this way. And so, you know,
I think anybody that tries to change the conversation
into a, well, you're trying to, you know, essentially
label all of these people this way, or you're
behaving in this manner. I think they're not
serious about the conversation at play here.
They're going to allow. people like Benjamin
Netanyahu to get away with sort of all of his
failures, including his security failure on October
7th, his inability to sort of defend his own
people on that day. So I think that's something
that he needs to be held accountable for. And
so that's why it's always about accountability.
It's about justice. And at the end of the day,
if you're not serving that, then you're going
to not have addressed any, the issue in any impactful
way. I truly, truly believe that. I mean, we're
talking here in the United States now about military
action in Latin America. I mean, you are watching
people, again, the same people who love to send
other people's kids to the front lines of battles,
the folks who probably have never served a single
day in their life. You hear them now saying,
Nicholas Maduro should leave. One way or the
other, he's going to leave. We're talking about
Latin America. When you start hearing rhetoric
like that, they want boots on the ground. They
want to engage in military activity, and they
want to make sure other people's sons and daughters
are the ones fighting these wars that will inevitably
cause the bodies to pile up, people to suffer,
and tragedy to occur. And that's what bothers
me. It just really kills me because I saw it
take place over the last two years. I see these
Israeli ministers who are extreme. By all standards,
very extreme, very hateful, very racist individuals.
And I see their tweets. I follow them on X and
I see their posts. And it is absolutely. inhumane
the stuff that they tweet out there the the joy
that they get about a school getting bombed and
you know 15 kids uh getting killed and them saying
oh well yeah this is what you know they have
to pay a price because of what happened beforehand
or this is how we get our revenge and you're
like these people should not be in power they
should not be anywhere near other human beings
let alone in a cabinet position for a government
so um you know i worry about that and i see signs
of that here in our own country where You have
people who are just, you know, just so willing
to say, hey, you know, to scream war and to be
so happy to engage in war and to fight the, you
know, like you said, I mean, I think, you know,
Howard Zinn is this historian. He's the late
Howard Zinn. But, you know, he had made the argument
that, you know, there's always these in American
history, at least they talk about the three sort
of good wars. Like these are wars that were fought
for. you know, moral reasons. And he talks about
the American Revolutionary War. He talks about
the Civil War and he talks about World War II.
And he then points out, he goes into detail about
how there were really horrible things that were
done during these wars and how you cannot just
sugarcoat everything. If you're going to do something,
just understand the human consequences as a result
of this. And I don't think people are doing that.
I don't think that you're seeing people in power,
especially. who are considering the human cost
and who are considering sort of that sort of
element of it. No, they're considering the defense
contracts, the weapons industry, and they're
considering their political positions and appearing
powerful. I hate that. I've had so many veterans
on now, veterans of the Afghanistan war and in
Iraq specifically, and you listen to these real
warriors. You know, there's no question that
there were times when they were out there that
they made, you know, a difference in that particular
place. If they were being oppressed by a Taliban
or whoever it was, or whether they were just,
you know, helping build a school or, you know,
the physicians helping, you know, local people
that were sick. I think a lot of them can be
proud of their service, but when they ask, well,
why were we there in the first place and why
were we there for so long? And then why did we
leave the way we did? And why do we allow these
people to go back in power and kill so many of
these courageous, you know, indigenous people
that fought alongside us that now they're beheaded
and all that their family killed, you know, that
there's a real cautionary tale there. And I was
talking to someone about this, this show that
I'm making with my new book, you know, that.
Even though it doesn't take place in that era,
it's that same thing. Like, we should be still
hearing from our veterans. It should be front
and center because they're the ones that, you
know, that's the new war is hell conversation
is coming from our Middle East veterans, from
all the countries, you know, the veterans from
Iraq and everyone. And so, like you said, these
politicians, they send other people's kids to
war. And it absolutely disgusts me. Another thing
that you don't see put front and center, because
let's be completely honest, there is a section
of Islamophobia that's going on at the moment
that are all, you know, up in arms and, you know,
celebrating the fact that this has gone on in
Gaza because, you know, they're obviously not
a fan of the Muslim faith. So where's the conversation
about the Christian churches that have been killed?
and the Christians within Gaza. So talk to me
about that for the people that, let's say someone's
listening that only cares about people in their
own faith. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's important
to understand Palestinian culture and society.
There is no religious tension that exists between
Palestinian Christians and Muslims. I think that
probably that has to do with both sort of suffering
under... occupation. And if you live in Gaza,
you know, kind of unites you. But there aren't
the same tensions that exist that you may see
in other areas where there are sort of different
people of different backgrounds and faiths. In
fact, you know, I'll give you an example. Of
course, my mother went to a Catholic school.
She's Muslim, went to a Catholic school growing
up in Jerusalem. And, you know, it's, you know,
in Ramallah, which is where the, in the West
Bank, where the Palestinian Authority is based,
Ramallah is a traditionally like, you know, a
very Christian and Muslim town. And so, you know,
you're talking about a society that's part and
parcel of being Palestinian is either being Muslim
or Christian. I've even heard there's some Jews
too. So that's like, you know, I think the idea
here is that this is a very sacred land to many
different faiths. And, you know, I visited Jerusalem
very recently and I went to the Church of the
Holy Sepulchre because I just, you know, i'm
just fascinated by the old city and the person
one of the main people that is uh monitoring
it he's a volunteer doesn't get paid but he's
sort of like making sure that you know people
aren't filming tick tocks inside of you know
very you know sacred areas uh he's this you know
palestinian man and he's somebody who lives in
jerusalem palestinian christian who can recount
probably for his entire adult life, the abuses
and the sort of discrimination that he encounters
being in a city that's, you know, surrounded
by Israeli police and military. And in Gaza specifically,
there is this ancient, one of the oldest churches
in the world is in Gaza. It's always been there,
of course, and, you know, regardless of who was
in control of the Gaza Strip. It's always kind
of had the freedom to sort of exist and move.
And I want to mention this very specifically.
This is the Ahli Baptist Church. Pope Francis,
the late Pope Francis, would FaceTime the clergy
in this church every single day until he died.
He was FaceTiming them during the assault. This
is a church that had been bombed, but many of
its... Many of its congregants were actually
sheltering and displaced in the church. So they
were living around the church and inside of the
church. We're talking about almost two years
here. And Pope Francis would continuously talk
to them. And you could see on different videos,
actually, there's one video that was caught where
he's asking them, well, what did you guys eat
today? And because they were just like all these
other Palestinians in Gaza being starved, the
Palestinian Christians were being starved too.
And so you're talking about a very small minority
in Gaza with this very rich history that's at
risk of being erased. This church that's been
there forever, one of the oldest churches in
the world, at risk of being reduced to rubble
just like the rest of Gaza. And so the Israelis
had approved the decision. that the entire world
told them, don't do this. They said, we're going
to do a Gaza City offensive. Gaza City is the
most populated city in all of Gaza. And it's
one of the most densely populated areas in the
world. It is more densely populated in normal
times than Tokyo, than Tokyo, Japan. It's more
densely populated. And the church is in Gaza
City. That church, this ancient historic church
is in Gaza City. The Israeli military issued...
displacement orders for all of gaza city and
you saw 300 400 500 000 palestinians start walking
south away from the military this church all
of the congregants the the the clergy the everybody
came together and they made the decision we're
not leaving And they refused to leave. Despite
the bombing all around them, despite the tanks
moving in and the ground troops invading, they
made the decision not to leave. And I give them
so much respect and credit for that, to make
that horrifying decision. But it was so, it is
unbelievably courageous, but also they were not
going to be erased. And I think, you know, that's,
I think when we think about, when Palestinians
like myself, we think about, We want to preserve
our tradition and our culture and our history.
That is a very, very important piece to the puzzle.
You know, like, you know, Jesus Christ was born
in Bethlehem. And one of our national leaders
is a pastor from a church named Munder Isaac.
You know, I think you should, if I can somehow
connect you to him, I would love to connect you
to him because he's such an important voice.
He is one of the leading voices for Palestinians
in the diaspora and on the ground in the West
Bank and Gaza. He's a thought leader and he's
somebody who sort of is a moral compass for so
many of us. That's, you know, these are the sort
of, when we talk about Palestinian Christians,
they're Palestinian, just like a Palestinian
Muslim person. And they have gone through every
single struggle. that Palestinians have gone
through. They've not been given any sort of exception.
And oftentimes we see them as they walk through
the old city of Jerusalem, they get harassed
more and they get attacked more. I mean, stories
of being spit on, of being hit, of being, you
know, just blockaded. They endure the same struggles.
And I'll give one last example. When there are
major Christian holidays, whether it's mass for
Christmas Eve or Easter, the ability to access
the old city, they endure the same sort of restrictions
and blockades and occupation that the rest of
the Palestinian population does. You're talking
about the most significant holidays for an entire
faith. And you're talking not just that this
is happening in Chicago or in London or in Berlin.
You're talking about the hub. you know, kind
of the center of where this faith started. And
you are watching sort of this sort of discrimination
against them. I hope people can understand that
because I feel like in this country specifically,
a certain evangelical flavor will try to paint
this as like. Hey, this is a struggle between,
you know, the Jewish faith and the Muslim faith.
No, it's not. That's not the case at all. It
is a struggle between a military that is occupying
and an indigenous people who are just trying
to preserve who they are, because we've seen
many people in their sort of positions in the
past get erased. That's I think that's I think
it's important just for people to put that context
into place. And just so I'm clear, there have
been. Palestinian Christians killed and there
have been Palestinian churches, Christian churches
destroyed. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again,
I actually don't think the, I don't think I know
that the health ministry in Gaza does not distinguish
based on faith, but you will, you will, you know.
People in Gaza, there was nowhere that was safe.
And so wherever Palestinian Christians or Muslims
or any other faith, all of them have been subjected
to the same intense violence that we've seen
on display. Palestinian American Christian journalist
in Jenin before October 7th, 2023. In 2023, the
most up until October 7th was the deadliest year
in the West Bank since the second intifada in
the early 2000s. And in Jenin, the Israeli military
was conducting operations and it was becoming
very intense. One of the most famous journalists,
her name is Shireen Abu Akleh. She is a Palestinian
American, New Jersey native, worked for Al Jazeera.
I remember growing up with Shireen. reporting
from the ground. She was hit by an Israeli sniper
and killed. No accountability. Nobody brought
to justice. State Department was not able to
produce any sort of investigation about Shireen.
She's a Palestinian Christian. On the day of
her funeral, on the day of her funeral, because
the Israeli police and military in Jerusalem,
because she was going to be buried in Jerusalem
because her family was from there. they were
beating the people who were carrying her coffin.
And what they found, a group of Muslims gathered
around, picked up the coffin, and you can watch
the video of them get beaten, but insisted on
carrying the body of Shadeen until she could
have been given a proper burial. So this is,
she's somebody who was loved by all of us. You
know, I grew up a Muslim. Shadeen is a part of
my childhood. watching her report from the ground
and to watch her just get gunned down the way
she was gunned down, just a sniper hitting her
in the head. It's, you know, her second anniversary
passed recently. It's one of those things, again,
I talk about no justice, no accountability. Yeah,
I mean, that is just one of so many heartbreaking
images. And as you alluded to, I mean, Hind's
story and the first responders, the firefighters
and the paramedics were gunned down. I mean,
it's just, it's unending. And this is what I
don't understand is that why people can't separate
political ideologies and just look as a human
being you know the same thing as we've talked
about many times the people that were killed
on october 7th you know that's a tragedy as well
and why can you not just say that those two things
can exist simultaneously that's what that's what
really bothers me i don't think anybody is serious
about um you know protecting you know human rights
and making sure that civilians aren't targeted
and making sure that you know at least if you're
gonna have something take place that the sanctity
of hospitals, churches, mosques, all these things
are sort of protected. You're not serious if
you somehow find exceptions for those rules,
depending on who the people are, you know, depending
on what their skin color is, or what their faith
is, or what their background is, or what their
politics are. So, you know, it's something that
I think, again, it's, we're heading down the
wrong path, for sure. You know, those interesting
thing too, that I didn't realize until very recently,
and I had posted about this was with Hind. And
Ahmed and Yusuf, the two first responders, I
didn't realize that they were at. It's just crazy
how this story, no matter how you look at it,
is just absolutely tragic. But they got the dispatch
while they were at the Ahli Baptist Hospital
that had been bombed in early October 2023. So
they were there, stationed there at this hospital
that had been bombed. And they were talking to
one of the young journalists, Ismail Al Ghul,
who was a journalist that was killed of the more
than 200. you know, 25 journalists killed in
Gaza. So it's like, you know, every single part
of that story had death and tragedy connected
to it. We just didn't know at the time. So it
was, you know, really just tough story to deal
with. I visited the call center, the Palestinian
Red Crescent in... uh the west bank that took
the call of hind on the phone um you know they
spent obviously more than three hours with her
i saw the desk where they took the call i saw
the call center they showed me kind of how they
respond and they had this poster of all of the
first responders who had been killed in two years
and you know um it it was really tough i mean
these pictures of these guys wearing their uniforms
smiling posted up there knowing that they were
killed in the line of duty. Those people, I don't
know. I mean, again, I hate to say it again,
but those people deserve justice. I mean, their
families deserve justice. These guys, man, they're
absolute heroes for even deciding to get in a
car or to go and try to dig somebody out of,
you know, from some rubble or try to put out
a fire while there was a, you know, a kid running
through trying to, you know, rescue them. And
to think that they were, you know, the fact that
they were wearing their vests is put a target
on their back. It kills me. And I, you know,
I really don't want to let that slide, even if
there is, which I think we're going to talk about
now, some sort of fragile ceasefire that's maintained
or whatever it is. Those guys deserve, those
guys deserve justice. I posted one of the rescues
from, you know, some of the rescue workers and
it was a successful rescue and it was a very
young girl. And again, just seeing some of the
comments, it blew me out. I don't want to go
down that whole internet troll thing, but people
that I know that were first responders themselves,
who I spent time with in person a few months
ago, basically saying, I'm not going to be part
of the podcast anymore. Why would you share Al
Jazeera? It's a video of a young girl being rescued
after a bombing by men that share the same exact
uniform as me. And if you still... so ingrained
in your messiah of the left or the right whoever
it is that you can't even see humanity anymore
i got nothing for you i mean i'm sorry but that
if there's not a red flag for mental the mental
health crisis in this country is the lack of
moral compass then You're not going to be able
to persuade that person back into the middle.
That person needs to look in the mirror and go,
where is my compassion? I need to go do some
work on myself. Yeah. I mean, it's a crisis of
empathy, you know, and it goes back to dehumanization.
If you can quickly dehumanize the other person
that you're looking across, if you can quickly
somehow make them less human than you. You can
do anything. I mean, anything is possible at
that point. And like, you know, these guys, they
are digging with their hands. They're being exposed.
I mean, we know this from 9 -11, you know, like
these first responders and police officers and
firefighters that rushed into a building that
was on fire, but also collapsing. If they survived.
then they still dealt and they are still dealing
with lifelong health problems. Well, it's the
same thing with these folks here. They're with
their bare hands trying to dig through the rubble.
There's all these fumes coming up from the bomb
that was just dropped. So, I mean, again, you
know, they don't get enough credit. They don't
get enough honor and respect. And for those that
have been killed, I think, you know, you know.
Comments like that or people who are sort of
like deemed, they actually fuel me to make sure
that I want to tell their story. I want to confront
everyone with their faces, with pictures of them
at the most recent birthday party. I don't want
you to deny their humanity. And if I have to,
I will continue to shove that not just in everybody's
face who kind of sat idly by who could have made
a difference and changed something, but to people
who may also lack that sort of empathy. I want
to confront them with this. And maybe they can,
maybe that's the way that they can sort of, it
can awaken something inside of them where they
can be like, damn, you know, that guy, you know,
he's wearing a Spider -Man shirt, just like,
you know, I have a Spider -Man shirt or something
like that. You know what I mean? Exactly. So
let's get to the ceasefire. James Gearing's perspective
was one of the basically allies of these, you
know, these tyrants. then started parading around
saying, I deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. I'm going
to stop this crisis. Now, to me, that would be
like Mussolini saying that he was instrumental
in stopping the genocide in World War II. That's
just my personal opinion. So I'll leave that
there. Talk to me about the so -called ceasefire,
the fragility, and then what's threatening it
as we sit here now on October 29th, 2025. Yeah.
So this is actually a very sad and convoluted
way that we got to the ceasefire. Donald Trump
was elected as president. And in late January,
right before he's supposed to have his inauguration,
he essentially demonstrated what President Biden
could not do. He told the Israelis through Witkoff,
his special envoy. who is a billionaire real
estate person based in New York, who the president
trusts a lot, trusts more than Secretary Marco
Rubio, who you, I think, have probably noticed
is absent from these Middle East negotiations,
as well as the Ukraine -Russia stuff. So special
envoy Steve Witkoff is the guy. So Witkoff basically
tells the Israelis and really forces on them
that you need to get a ceasefire done. Nothing
is going to distract from the president's inauguration.
And sure enough, a ceasefire deal is secured.
And it's this phased approach, phase one, phase
two, phase three. Phase one, you're going to
release a, there's going to be an exchange of
prisoners between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
And then you saw that sort of take place. And
then, you know, they're going to allow Palestinians
who were displaced to the south to go to the
north. So we saw all of that take place. The
ceasefire phase one expiration was 50 days, 5
-0. During that time period, the Israelis. who
were previously blockading uh un trucks from
getting in were allowing trucks to enter and
these i mean i tell you these un agencies these
humanitarian organizations they were doing an
amazing job about 600 trucks a day they were
getting it out there the difference on the ground
was felt by everybody on the ground in that short
time period and everybody's sort of like damn
like this is this could work march 2nd ceasefire
deal expires And we are hearing that there have
been no progress towards the phase two of the
negotiations. March 18th, the Israelis violate
the ceasefire agreement and unleash hell on Gaza.
I have many colleagues who were in Gaza at the
time, five of my pretty good friends. And they
talk about night and day, just drones are overhead,
fighter jets are overhead, bombing incessantly
every 10, 15 minutes. And just pure... you know,
pure pandemonium. And I remember being in DC,
January and February, visiting different offices
and saying, remember specifically saying, we
cannot allow this ceasefire deal to fall apart.
It will be the cruelest thing imaginable. It
will be so incredibly cruel to give a glimmer
of hope that there's going to be some stability
and some entry of aid, and then just to rip that
all away from them. And sure enough, on March
18th, we saw things escalate, and we talked a
little bit earlier about how they escalated to
the point where there was famine on the ground,
there was more displacement, and then we talked
about the Gaza City Offensive, where Palestinian
Christians in the heart of Gaza City refused
to abandon their church and refused to leave
despite the Israelis bearing down on them. So,
what happens? Well, the... Palestinian factions,
including Hamas and other groups, are signaling
to the Trump administration that they're ready
to accept this sort of Trump peace proposal that's
been on the ground since January. And they are
coming together in Doha, Qatar, to give their
formal agreement to Trump's peace proposal. And
all of this is being leaked by different journalists
saying, You know, they're very optimistic they're
going to have a deal. The president himself says,
I think we're going to have a deal in two days,
maybe one week. And so momentum is building.
This tells you just how insane Benjamin Netanyahu
and his thugs are. They make the decision to
scramble their fighter jets and to cross the
Red Sea and head to Qatar and bomb where the
Palestinians are meeting to give their response
to President Trump. So this has been one of a
series of really irrational and insane acts by
the Israelis. But there's a twist this time.
This time, the people they're trying to kill,
for whatever reason, had stepped out of the room.
And so this very insane decision where if he
had killed those people, Netanyahu could have
came out and said, these guys were dicking around.
They were not serious about this peace proposal.
And we sent them a message because they were
going to continue to, you know, we killed them.
They were responsible for whatever it was. Instead
of that, now he had an international crisis on
his hands because the Trump administration is
fuming that they did this. The Qataris, of course,
are like, we're not going to help. We're not
going to be the middleman anymore for any of
you people. Despite Obama asking us back in the
2000s to open an office for the Taliban so we
can negotiate, to open an office for Hamas so
we can negotiate, despite us being sort of this
broker, we're not doing any of that bidding.
It is pure pandemonium and crisis. And so what
you see then is, and this is why I say this is
really sad and convoluted, is you see what sort
of pressure the Americans and the rest of the
world can put on the Israelis to come to the
table. Because now Netanyahu is summoned and
you see Trump hand him a phone and he has to
call the Qataris and apologize. And they tell
them the Americans through Witkoff and now Jared
Kushner, who has reemerged from the dead, is
now involved in these negotiations. And essentially
they're telling the Israelis, you have to accept
this peace proposal. Well, let's dig a little
deep into what the peace proposal is. At the
end of the day. it was the release of all of
the remaining israeli prisoners in gaza all of
the remaining uh uh abductees uh people who had
been kidnapped as well as all the palestinians
who have been abducted um you know or at least
two thousand of the tenth of the six thousand
and so you see that exchange of the people who
had not been killed the israelis who had not
been killed in gaza they're released And then
you see a bunch of, you see almost 2000 Palestinians
get released. And so that was a part of this
phase of the first phase of the ceasefire. The
other part was there are now three lines in Gaza
and the Israelis agreed as a part of phase one,
they will withdraw to the first line. And if
we get to the next phase, they'll withdraw to
the second line. And if we get to the third phase,
they'll withdraw to the third line. If you look
at these maps, James. The key point in all of
this is not where these lines are drawn, but
where the final line is drawn, because the Israelis
have essentially created a buffer zone where
they have taken parts of the Gaza Strip, where
they have now in this agreement basically said,
we're not going to give this back. We're going
to be here forever. Like this is now we're changing
the borders, essentially. And then they left
all of the major issues. Oh, sorry. The last
part of this is that Hamas has. said that they
will not participate in any Palestinian government,
authority, or administration in the Gaza Strip.
They are out of Palestinian politics. That was
agreed. That's phase one. The reason we got to
phase one is because all of the other major issues
have been pushed off to phase two, and none of
these have been reconciled yet. None of these
have been addressed. These are things like what
happens to the border between Gaza and Egypt?
Will the Israelis maintain a checkpoint here?
Will Palestinians be able to enter Israel or
to go to Jerusalem to get medical treatment or
to the West Bank like they used to be able to
before October 7th? Who will be allowed to bring
aid in? Are the UN agencies there? What about
these killing centers, the GHF, the Gaza Humanitarian
Foundation, this American -Israeli initiative
that had security contractors? Basically, are
they going to exist in this post -genocide Gaza?
So none of these questions are answered. And
there's an idea of we want an international stabilization
force that can disarm Hamas, which I think Hamas
has said they are willing to. give up major weapons,
but not small weapons? Well, who's going to do
the disarming? Who is going to produce the troops
for that? How long will they be there for? And
then finally, what is this transitional government
going to look like? They want, of course, to
have different people involved. Somehow, Tony
Blair... Talk about reemerging from the dead.
He's involved. Is he going to be the governor
of this transitional moment? I don't know why
he's in the mix at all. I have no idea. Nobody
can explain to us. what sort of role he'll play,
which is what Palestinians want. They want Palestinian
technocrats, people who are apolitical, who are
experts in health, in recovery, in finance. They
want them to form a caretaker government that
eventually leads to some sort of long -term government.
None of these questions are answered. And the
biggest issue that we've seen and i will say
this very bluntly and very clearly because this
has been confirmed by all sources is netanyahu's
government uh there is a lot of deep unpopularity
with the ceasefire proposal with the agreement
to this ceasefire and two days after he agreed
to the ceasefire he had to show up in court for
his corruption trial that he's undergoing and
you are seeing that this could potentially lead
to elections in Israel. So you are talking about
a government that has every excuse to make sure
this ceasefire does not maintain any sort of
sustainability. I will share two stories about
this. The first is there were Israeli bulldozers
in Rafah that were bulldozing buildings, and
they are behind that first line that we talked
about. They went over an unexploded ordnance
and two Israeli soldiers were killed. The Israelis
immediately responded and said, oh, this was
a Hamas attack. And they hit 11 or 14 different
targets in Gaza, saying that. And in fact, Smotrich,
who is the finance minister for the Israelis,
tweeted. or posted on x he said literally just
the word war exclamation mark when this happened
well the americans had been monitoring the situation
and so the trump administration let the israelis
know they said we know that this story is not
true so knock it off so they stopped the bombing
and then they had also closed the border where
aid would enter and they said reopen the border
and three hours later benjamin netanyahu with
his tail between his legs gets up and says Ceasefire
is back on, border is open. There was some sort
of issue that took place. So that was the first
moment where we saw the ceasefire could fall
apart. The second thing is there are these remains
of hostages in Gaza, of Israeli hostages in Gaza.
And there are 13 remaining remains. And so the
Israelis are using this as an excuse to say that
Hamas is violating the ceasefire. into bomb again
and the last 24 hours there was apparently a
skirmish between an undisclosed palestinian armed
group in rafa and then this this delay in the
handing over of remains that the israelis decided
that we are going to punish hamas for this and
the way that they punished hamas is they killed
100 palestinians 36 of them were kids in 24 hours
and so i was very disturbed by this because when
the americans needed to show force on this instead
you had rubio say who again is a nobody in this
administration is not trusted but you saw him
jump in and say we never said with this peace
proposal that the israelis couldn't defend themselves
They always will have the right to defend themselves.
So, again, lacking the leadership that's needed
to say this is Trump's peace proposal and you're
going to abide by the president's peace proposal.
No, they didn't do that. Like they did the first
time around. And then you saw J .D. Vance say,
no, there's still a ceasefire. There's still
a ceasefire. And the Israelis bombed 100, killed
100 people. All of these different kids were
killed and they came out and they said, OK, ceasefire
is back into effect. That's not how a ceasefire
works. And if that is going to be the trajectory
of the next few months. We are in for a total
disaster. We're in for a total disaster and we
will see more bloodshed. We will see more people
die unnecessarily. And that's really what bothers
me. And I know I'm going on too long, but I'll
say one last thing. No, you're fine. Witkoff
and Kushner did a 60 Minutes interview that aired
last Sunday. And they said a couple of, it just
shows you that both of these guys are not diplomats,
which is a good and bad thing. They are not your
seasoned career politicians, right? So there's
a couple of things that they said. The first
is Kushner said he went to Gaza and it looked
like an atomic bomb had gone off. Jared Kushner
said this. And you can ask anybody. Jared Kushner
is a fierce ally of Israel, of the state of Israel.
He has self -proclaimed like he really wants
that country to succeed. He really wants it to
be able to. And he said it looked like an atomic
bomb had went off. And then the other thing he
said was, he said, I saw people going back to
the north. And I asked the Israeli military,
where are they going? Because it looked like
an atomic bomb had went off. He said they're
going to go and sit atop of where their homes
once were, despite it being rubble. And he had
said that was incredibly sad. Well, he's acknowledging
something there. And I don't know if he realizes
it, but he's acknowledging the indiscriminate
bombing that the Israeli military had inflicted
on the Gaza Strip. And he acknowledged that there's
going to be a plight of displaced Palestinians
who... homes have been for no reason had gone
off. And the final thing was what Witkoff was
saying. Witkoff admitted, and this is something
we knew, but this is important. He said this
on 60 Minutes. You know, the Americans had never
directly in all of our history and all of Hamas's
history, we've never directly engaged in negotiations
with them. We've just not done that. This was
the first time where the president gave Witkoff
and Kushner special permission to engage with
them directly because he felt that doing it through
these intermediates and mediators wasn't getting
the job done. And so they directly did it. That's
something that the Israelis are strongly opposed.
They strongly oppose that. They do not want the
Americans communicating with any Palestinians
without the Israelis babysitting it. and there's
a reason for that they want the israeli america
and israel want to be from the israeli perspective
they want to have the same message and they want
to have the same line and so this changed in
these negotiations um and they were able to sort
of uh get to you know apply the pressure that
was needed so you know this is where we're at
right now um and if you could tell just by how
long i was going on for it is so it is very concerning
everybody's still very tense and anxious about
what could happen what about the israeli voice
because i've said this you know the whole two
years that there's you know you saw this in russia
there was a lot of opposition within russia and
all of a sudden there wasn't and i'm assuming
that means that the government made all those
people go away most likely when you know i'm
obviously i'm getting sound bites but you know
we all have a lean so i don't know if the sound
bites are just coming from an echo chamber but
i I seem to see like there was a growing voice
of this was never about the hostages from the
Israelis themselves. I'm sure that the people
in Tel Aviv would love to go along, you know,
get on with their life and not worry about being
shelled or, you know, IED or anything else going
on. And so the average people from, I mean, everywhere
on this damn planet just want to literally...
go to work, raise their kids, know that their
kids are going to be safe in school. That's another
entire American conversation in itself. So what
have you heard as far as the average Israeli
voice and their perspective on this fragile ceasefire
at the moment? So I think, and obviously I'm
not an expert on this, but what we're seeing
really is a very similar sort of environment
to American politics with how divisive and polarizing
things are. I think you have people in Israel
who are extremely, extremely upset and disappointed
in the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu and cannot
wait to see the day that he's out of power. And
as you said, I think the hostage families. have
been this really well -organized, powerful voice
in Israeli internal politics and dynamics. They
have really been one of the few. i think they've
been able to break through in a way uh whereas
like if you're a part of the opposition you're
just sort of shut down ignored uh but they've
been able to break through that to be able to
really hold to account and continuously re -center
the discussion towards uh you know humans and
not important not towards like oh we want to
annihilate and you know decimate and all of these
things and i think um one powerful message that
arose was that the person who was the most The
way that Netanyahu and the Israeli military were
behaving in Gaza was clear that the priority
was not the return of the hostages. And that
became a salient message in Israel. But again,
you have, I think, a society that is very polarized
with respect to politics. And I think there's
been, I'll tell you just from the perspective
of what's happening in the West Bank with Israeli
settlers who are... you know, who have killed
Americans. Actually, recently, there was an American
from Florida in the summer was visiting his family.
He is a very young man, 19 or 20 years old, safe
alone. And he was beaten to death by Israeli
settlers. And, you know, who were sort of raiding
the village, the Palestinian village that he
was in. And then they went ahead and blocked
the ambulance from being able to get to him.
So this guy. died from a brain bleed but you
know that is happening these sorts of that sort
of violence is happening in the west bank and
so you see it's a very divide you know this is
a very polarizing thing and so i think that's
why the idea of an election For Netanyahu, he's
very averse to that, like an early election where,
you know, he has people sort of withdraw from
his government and then suddenly you're triggering
elections in Israel. It's going to be I think
it's I think you're going to see a lot of different
all of these voices emerge in a very loud way.
I think it's important for people to recognize
that prior to what's this, you know, what's happened
in the last two years, Israeli society was at
a standstill every single week. Israelis were
in the streets. protesting Benjamin Netanyahu,
wanting him to resign, wanting the government
to fall apart, and that they had had multiple
elections in the previous two years and could
never have a, I guess, a government that lasted
until Netanyahu started joining forces with the
extreme right and was able to kind of, you know,
hold on to government. And then obviously when
things break out, if you're pitching war to people,
they don't want to change leadership in the middle
of a war. So I think there's, again, with how
much discussion is taking place inside, I think
there's an aversion to politics if you're already
in power. To elections, I should say. So, sowing
some seeds of hope to kind of leave as a final
thought, what needs to happen so that we do see
a conclusion to this horrendous chapter of modern
society? Yeah, I mean, I think... There's a couple
of things. I think first and foremost, you have
to understand that you cannot just assume that,
you know, boots on the ground from an array of
different countries are going to somehow create
some degree of stability. Those people need to
leave at some point. They'll never have a mandate
forever. And eventually, you know, it is that
is an occupation. And so it's important, I think,
for all parties to realize that safety and security
is tied to the. opportunities that are available
for prosperity and for some future ahead. Palestinians
need to have some degree of agency. They need
to be able to have self -determination. They
need to be involved in this recovery process.
It cannot be Tony Blair, Indonesia. the UK, Egypt
kind of dictating what happens to Palestinians.
No, you need to find the people that are embedded
within the community who are these leaders, who
are people who people trust. You need to have
them leading the effort. That needs to be a part
of the equation. And right now, that's not what's
happening. And I think that's why we're not seeing
any sort of serious... results coming out of
this. The other thing is the status quo is unsustainable.
What do I mean by the status quo, which has been
the policy of the United States for the last
six decades? This West Bank where there's a bunch
of Palestinians, Gaza, there's a bunch of Palestinians,
East Jerusalem where there's a bunch of Palestinians.
But you've got the Israeli military absolutely
occupying and increasing their presence. It's
not going to work. It's just not sustainable.
It hasn't worked. It's not provided any sort
of safety or security for anybody. There needs
to be, and I don't care what people decide. I
think at the end of the day, it is what it is.
One state, two state, three state, four states.
But there needs to be real stability here and
there needs to be real services. You cannot have
corrupt despots showing up who are going to be
like kind of dictating to people and you're going
to say, oh, that's your leader. And you cannot
have a military that's going to monitor all movement,
who's going to set up over a thousand checkpoints,
who's going to prevent people from ever leaving
the Gaza Strip. It cannot happen. The way forward
is. Not by repeating the mistakes of the past.
The day after can't look like the day before.
We can't go back to October 6th, 2023. If you
do... you're you're we are going to fail miserably
it needs to be a dramatic change and i know that's
it's easier said than done but i can tell you
if we if palace if a palestinian child can grow
up and say well you know i want to travel the
world or i want to study engineering or i want
to visit jerusalem and you make that a reality
for them you will have safety stability security
and prosperity There's no way around it. But
if this is about if we're going to continue to
prioritize land grabs or, you know, natural gas
off the coast of the Mediterranean Sea or some
sort of religious conviction that there's that
you're entitled to everything, you know, that
you can grab on to or, you know, all of these
things, they will continue to bring about suffering.
And it's not sustainable and it's not in the
long term interests of any party. of anybody.
It doesn't matter how strong you are today or
how weak you are today. It's not going to be
sustainable by any means. There has to be a shift.
There has to be a change. We have not done anything
that's worked in 75 years of this conflict on
the ground. And now we've had a genocide unfold
in two years. And so that's what needs to happen.
The only way that happens, and I know people
are not going to want to hear it, but it starts
with the United States. Nothing happens over
the last two years without the United States
either giving a green light or a red light. Nothing
can change on the ground without the United States.
We are still, for all intents and purposes, the
most powerful country, the most influential country,
and we are... not just you know uh i mean before
usaid shut down but not only were we sort of
like providing military aid to the israelis but
we're also funding all of these different you
know humanitarian projects that you know in in
palestine and so um we've you know it starts
with us and it starts with real leadership and
it's not going to be with neoconservatives or
neoliberals or you know warmongers. It's going
to be none of that. It's not going to be Ted
Cruz or Lindsey Graham or Charles Schumer or,
you know, Gavin Newsom. It will not be from those
people. I promise you, they don't know what,
you know, they want to keep things the way that
they are. And the way that things are, are people
are suffering unnecessarily. And yeah, it feels
like it's a thousand miles away. But it will
be coming to, you know, it'll be coming to a
place near you or a place that you care about
or that's near and dear to your heart. And it
will continue to grow. And this cycle of violence
only grows and gets bigger and extends. And so
I would say that's the immediate next step is
how can the United States change how it's mediating
some of these things and influencing some of
these things in a way that brings peace and prosperity?
You know, I don't know. I think it needs more.
I think we need better leaders. I want to finish
with the story that you literally told me in
our very first conversation, which was on the
way to Gaza, you were in Jerusalem, if I remember
rightly, and you were seeing Christians and Muslims
and Jews all worshipping side by side, praying
side by side. So let's kind of leave with that
image of what can be. I mean, the people just
seeing the shared humanity rather than the divisive.
religious labels that we're putting on them well
i just experienced that uh in the first week
of october you know i was in jerusalem and same
thing i mean people buying falafel sandwiches
from each other you know i mean where you know
they're they're uh you see uh orthodox jews walking
through they've you know they've got the their
entire uh like religious uh attire on you saw
Christians from all over the world, you know,
at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre or at the
Greek Orthodox Church or visiting all of the
other churches that were there. And you saw Muslims
that were entering. And the only issue that was
there, James, the only sort of, the only conflict
was the presence of the Israeli military that
were there in the old city that were harassing
people. Everyday human beings, Muslims, Jews,
Christians, families were just walking around.
living life normally. I mean, buying sandwiches
from each other, literally. And, you know, the
only, it was only when you had, you know, that,
that the institution that was sort of harassing
people, that was the only sort of like negative
vibe in that atmosphere, in that environment,
you know, and I. I tell you, it's there. I mean,
I think the ability for people to coexist and
to live and to move forward, it's there. And
I just think that the current institutions that
are in place, they are what are tearing people
apart. And I think, you know, I'm hopeful that
the next generation is smarter than we are, wiser
than we are, and more moral than we are. And
I think it's possible. I think it's very, very
possible. Well, I want to thank you again. Another
two hour conversation. I was thinking every time
we sit down, I'm like, oh, this will be short
because we talked already for, you know, in prior
episodes. But here we are again. But this is
what's so important is to hear, you know, such
a full conversation and obviously start, you
know, at home and then and then go over to Gaza.
But this is what educates us. And this is what
I think brings us into the middle is, you know,
we who who would want someone to suffer of whatever.
Color, creed, gender, orientation, whatever it
is. Unless they were literally a human being
that is beyond help, everyone else, it's about
healing. And I've always said this. I mean, I'm
not an expert in every single religion and their
holy book, but it seems like the wisdom that
lasts the ages is, hey, war is really bad. Community,
kindness, compassion, empathy, love, service.
Those are the things that will actually make
you happy. Next generation, next generation,
next generation. So, you know, it's so important,
I think, to hear, you know, keep hearing these
conversations as we're going along and just being
dogmatic as far as standing, you know, with that
moral courage, you know, that having that moral
compass, not about, you know, left, right, this.
this religion, that religion, but just getting
back to the middle of what is right. You know,
I think most of us know exactly what is right
and what is wrong. And what's happened recently
is absolutely wrong. And the nuances and the
backstories, of course, they come into how did
we get here? But the point is now, where do we
go from here? So I want to thank you so much
again for being so generous with your time and
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast. Always
a pleasure. Always a pleasure. And I always learn
something when I come on too. So I appreciate
that.