Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,
tactical athlete strength conditioning coach,
Vanessa Frost. So we discuss a host of topics
from her own journey into the world of coaching,
transitioning to training firefighters, hiring
standards, ongoing fitness standards, training
the youth athlete, prehab and rehab. and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you...
Vanessa Frost. Enjoy. Well, Vanessa, I want to
start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you
to our mutual friend Trevor for making this connection.
And secondly, I want to welcome you on to the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh, thank you
so much. I'm really excited to be here, and I'm
glad that Trevor connected us. He's a good dude.
He actually helped me rebuild a wall in my house
at one point in my life. So I'm grateful to him
for many reasons. Beautiful. Well, very first
question then. Where on planet Earth are we finding
you this afternoon? I am in Ding Dong, Texas,
which sounds fake. I recognize that. It is. I'm
essentially an hour outside of Austin. It's so
small, we don't even have a post office here.
So yeah, Ding Dong, Texas. Have you asked how
they got their name? And if so, I'd love to hear
it. So I've Googled it. I haven't asked. I should
just like, I don't know, I guess to find the
oldest resident of Ding Dong and ask them, but
I've Googled it. And we live in Bell County.
In Texas, and apparently, whoever Bell County
was named after had two sons. And as I would
imagine, like, I'm a mom of two sons, like, sometimes
I just want to call them Ding and Dong sometimes.
So I guess that is how Ding Dong got its name.
And that, like, the image on the front is these
two Bells. And so it's like named after the...
hooligan sons of whoever they named bell county
after so ding dong ditch was basically them putting
them up for adoption probably probably yeah all
right well i'd love to start the very beginning
of your journey so tell me where you were born
and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic
what your parents did how many siblings Yeah,
so I was born in Japan. My dad, he works for
Boeing. And he has been contracted with different
areas in the military, both for our military
and militaries around the world. And so I was
born in Japan. And then we moved around, not
quite a bit, but we moved to the US for a little
bit. And then I spent most of my growing up in
Rota, Spain, at a joint american spanish navy
base there and so um i was there for i think
i moved moved there right before my fifth birthday
and then all the way until the day i moved for
college um my mom has done quite a few things
throughout her life but we were there for my
dad's job um and then i have one older brother
when you reflect back now what were elements
of growing up in Spain that you wish could be
brought to the US, which could be paralleled?
And then what were some of the pros, excuse me,
some of the cons when you reflect? When I reflect
on, and of course, like, at the time, it was
just normal life. And so I didn't realize it.
But the speed at which life was lived was much
slower. I think even I live. quote unquote, out
in the country. Not really because I work just
outside of Austin and such, but even like Southern
living here feels fast, comparatively speaking.
Now, and also I lived on a beach town in Spain.
And so that might also be another dynamic, but
like I haven't lived in a beach town in the US.
And so maybe there's that aspect to it, but it
was a lot slower. You spent a lot more time enjoying.
And that like dinners every night were like a
two, three hour affair where, you know, you were
getting together with people, whether or not
that be your family in your house or going out
to eat with friends and such. It was an all night
thing. You weren't rushed out of your table by
any means. And I do miss that. I try, I find
myself trying to recreate portions of that for
my kids now. And I think those are the biggest
things, but also potentially a con because one
of the, one of the phrases like we grew up with
was like mañana por la mañana, which means like
tomorrow morning, tomorrow morning. And so anytime
you needed anything done back home, like if,
you know, instead of a two day turnaround, you're
talking about like a two month turnaround because
it's like, oh yeah, they'll be back tomorrow.
And then tomorrow is like three weeks later.
Um, so definitely some pros there and like where
the focus was of life, the idea of like working
so that you could live versus living so that
you could work, um, is something that, that I
miss dearly. My mom and my brother both moved
to Portugal down the Algarve. So the South coast,
um, about 20, God, 25 years ago, I think it was
now. And it's still there. Yeah. Still there.
Still love it. But yeah, the pace, you know,
there's so many upsides to the pace and the way
they view the health of their nation, their view
on decriminalization of addiction, for example,
or, you know, decriminalization of drug use from
a personal use to get these people in the hands
of the medical community and get back on their
feet is so progressive compared to the rest of
the world. But as you alluded to, if you want
something done quickly in Portugal, you're probably
going to be disappointed. Yes, very much. So
something that I think, I mean, I didn't know
any better, because again, I grew up there. So
that was kind of my way of living. But it caused
a lot of frustrations in my parents when they
were like trying to get things done around the
house where they needed, you know, different
vendors or such to come in. But yeah, that it
was a stark contrast from when I moved to the
US and like everything happened immediately.
So yeah, both, which is amazing in some ways,
and then also terrible in others. What about
the food? A number of times I've heard Americans
say that when they went to Italy, for example,
they had all the pasta and all the breads and
they didn't blow up their stomach and all the
side effects that we get here. What was the diet
like compared to what we see on average here
in the US? Different in that... And granted,
things also changed over the course of me living
there. And so I haven't been back. I haven't
been back in probably 12 years or so now. And
so I'm sure it's changed, you know, even more
so from when I left to now. Sweet things are
not nearly as sweet. That's something that I
remember doing a lot of like during Christmas
or Easter, you know, whatever kind of holiday
we would always bring our neighbors baked goods.
And like, we are in a baking family. So that
meant like Betty Crocker, like mixed from the
commissary, like type brownies and brought them
over. And they loved them. They would always
ask for more because like things that were that
sweet were not that common. Like even if you
went to one of those, like, I don't even know
what to call them. I don't want to call it like
a bread stop, but like just this little kiosk
that like sells all the pastries and things like
that. And you'd get like, you know, chocolate
covered croissants and things like that. They
were chocolatey, but not overtly sweet compared
to like what kind of we serve here. Like occasionally
I'll find one like that and I'll be like, oh
my gosh, this is so good. And I'll give it to
my kids. And they're like, this is gross. Like
it's not sweet enough for what their taste buds
are accustomed to. Um, and then again, depending
on where you like lived and went to school, I'm
sure things changed. I grew up by the coast.
So a ton of seafood, um, was very much the norm,
which I was grateful for. And then I went to
a school where, um, they hired, like, it wasn't
just like a lunch lady kind of reheating food
in the back or like doing what they could with
what they had. They actually, they showed up
when we showed up in the morning and you could
see, you could smell the kitchen cooking throughout
like the day. It was a separate building. And
so like when we'd go out for recess, you could
like kind of smell as lunch was coming. And they
were like three course meal lunches. Like you'd
have a soup and then salad and then the main
course and then either fruit or on Fridays, like
some kind of dessert or whatever at the end.
It's amazing because that sounds like such a
crazy concept to a lot of people. But if you
look at what Jamie Oliver was able to do in the
UK, I believe it still stands. And what he tried
to do here in the US that lasted, I think, a
few weeks. You know, it's what we did a long
time ago, you know, until there was Cisco, which
I just learned recently from Joel Salatin. The
food that's served to our schools is actually
expired food that they get at a discount. So
not only is it processed shit, but it's also
old processed shit that then we're fed to our
kids. And then we wonder why we have, you know,
70 % of our nation obese or overweight. Well,
because we deviated from what we know as work
for, you know, since the dawn of man, which is
whole food. Yeah. And that's unfortunate. And
I think something that like people often forget
about when they bring up these conversations
is, and granted, I don't know the end. like the
entire budget that places are working with. But
I do know that people always prefer their taxes
to be lower and there's a cost to that. Well,
I think with Jamie Oliver specifically, he took
the same budget because. yeah there's a misnomer
if you take you know local whole food and you
remove the middleman then it is you know quite
inexpensive to grow real food into yeah that
would make sense on a more local basis versus
like a regional state or even nationwide um yeah
that i mean that would be awesome but absolutely
we can well what about sport and exercise what
were you playing and doing back in spain um when
I didn't, I didn't start sports until I was about
seven years old. Everything. Oh, I lied. I lied.
I did gymnastics when I was in the US. So I was
about four. And then when we moved to Spain.
We couldn't find any like gymnastics gyms close
to us. I tried ballet. And then the ballet instructor
essentially told me that my body type does not
match that of ballerinas. So I shouldn't be there.
And then my brother played tennis. And so my
friends were like, okay, like, let's try you
in tennis. So I did. And then the coach told
my mom, he walked up to her and he goes, uh,
she is no good. You should stop wasting your
money. And so, you know, at like six years old,
just like tennis dreams straight, like gone,
um, poor hand -eye coordination, which honestly
continued throughout my life. But then at, um,
at seven, I started swimming. And so I did that,
um, up until I think I was 15 years old when
I stopped swimming. And so that was most of my
childhood there in terms of sport. I didn't develop
on land very well. And so like running was super
awkward for me. And it wasn't until I got into
high school, which then I went to an American,
like I went to the school that was on base, an
American type high school where I started doing
other things in addition to my swimming. Mostly
I was a cheerleader for. My high school career
dabbled in volleyball and softball and then track
and field for one very, very upsetting season
because running often was not my forte. Was that
short distance, middle? What were you running?
OK, so all the things because we went I went
to a school that was small enough that if you
were mildly athletic, then you were doing all
the things. And so mostly the four and the eight,
which like. No, thank you. Yeah, my son was a
miler. And yeah, he had this love -hate relationship
with it the whole time. Yeah, like it's fun,
but it's also not very fun. Like I would have
much rather have been in the pool than running.
What about career aspirations? When you were
in the high school age, what were you dreaming
of becoming? Um, I wanted to be a doctor for
a really long time. Um, I remember when I was
probably like seven or eight, I told my dad that
I wanted to be either a lawyer, a vet or a doctor.
And that, um, I get, I think just cause I was
very opinionated as a little girl. And so my
parents always said like, oh, well you should
be a lawyer, which is where I got that from.
Um, but then I always, I. I loved science and
I loved like bodies, whether they were like,
it was interesting to me, like how bodies could
do what they do, whether we're talking about
like humans or animals. Right. And so I wanted
to be one of those things. And as I got into
high school, I really wanted to pursue a career
in medicine. And initially it was kind of what
I went to college for, not what I, not what I
ended up with, but that's what I was shooting
for at the time. So why did that deviate? When
I was in college, kind of a couple of things
all collided in that. First, I was on an Air
Force ROTC scholarship that I realized I did
not want, like I'd grown up around the military
and I didn't want to actually join the military.
I didn't want to be told where to live or how
long to be there or go here, go there type thing.
And that is who essentially was, I was slotted
to the Air Force was going to pay for med school
at that point. And so I knew I wanted to leave
that. And then around at that same time, my sophomore
year, I was starting to do shadowing hours. When
we were talking about trying to get into med
school, the recommendation to me was like, go
and get shadowing hours as many as you can between
now and graduation. And so I started doing that.
And the more I shadowed, the more probably disillusioned
is a good word. I became with the medical system
and that like my whole goal was like, hey, I
want to help people. And I think science in the
human body is cool. And so that's how I'm going
to do it. But the more I shadowed, the more I
saw people and providers seeing patients that
had preventable diseases. Like we, granted, and
we were in a, you know, just a college town,
not like a huge town. And so we weren't having
a ton of like acute traumas and things like this.
mostly frequent flyer type patients who came
in because, you know, they weren't adhering to
their meds or, you know, X, Y, Z, but all things
that seem relatively preventable based on life
choices. And I was like, I don't want to, I don't
want to do that. I don't want to try and convince
somebody that they need to change, which is ironic.
to a degree, that's what I do now. But at the
time, I was like, I don't want to, I don't want
to spend my career trying to convince people
to change on the back half of things in a reactive
sense. But I want to be proactive. And so I,
you know, made every parent's like dream of like,
my daughter's no longer going to try and go to
medical school, but instead, she's going to be
a strength coach. So did you do that in college
as well, the strength and conditioning side?
so i was always um i mean kind of through high
school like it was towards the tail end of high
school i started getting into like weight training
and things like that um in college i was always
active um i was an air force rotc so like i was
having to train regularly for that anyways um
and then even when that let off It was like personal
training. And then I started teaching like group
fitness classes, but it was just something I
did for fun. It was never like a true career
aspiration by any means. And then when I like
knew I no longer wanted to like try and pursue
going to medical school, I was like, okay, well,
maybe I could do this instead. I still pursued
my degree in biology, which is what my undergrad
is in, because that could take me kind of anywhere,
a multitude of ways. But I was teaching group
fitness classes. I was actually coaching at a
CrossFit gym at the time. And I had met one of
my clients. She was the softball coach for the
college that I was going to. And she was like,
oh, you're great. You should meet our head strength
conditioning coach. And so she introduced me
to Clint McLeod, who was strength conditioning
coach at the time, who I'm sure was like just.
And not even mildly irritated, like just straight
up irritated that this little CrossFit coach
was trying to make her way into the weight room.
But I stuck around as just, you know, try and
get into rooms and get around people who are
better than you. And so I did that. And then
that's how I kind of like morphed into a career
of strength conditioning. How did you find yourself
coming across the NSCA CSCS? So I was in at the
tail end of my grad school. It was going to become
a requirement to have your CSCS in order to work
in a collegiate weight room, which is what I
was doing at the time. And so that is when I
went and got that. So when you said grad school,
was that kinesiology that you were doing? Oh,
yes. Yeah. So I graduated from my undergrad in
biology. I pursued a graduate degree in kinesiology.
And then during that time, I was a graduate assistant
coach, strength coach at the Southern Illinois
University where I got my degrees. I went to
University of North London, did kind of sports
science and then transitioned into two years
at UF here to finish my bachelor's in ex -phys.
And one of the semesters you actually did. prep
for the cscs and i never actually took the certification
in the end ironically but it was the one class
where i was like wow this is amazing this is
totally pertinent to training when i when i graduate
but the other all the other ones i did were just
extremely myopic and really prepared you to stay
in higher education studying sports science as
opposed to really setting you up for you know
a career in coaching or be even being a better
athlete yourself What was your experience as
far as that track educationally? So I think where
I lucked out was that I didn't get my undergrad
in exercises. And so since I did get my undergrad
in biology, I still use so much of that in the
background in terms of the human body. But my
graduate degree is technically a master's in
education. And so I got my kinesiology has a
focus on teaching. I focused on motor behavior
and so how to teach people movement. And it was
actually really applicable. So most of my classes
were biomechanics. So the physics of the human
body and how it moves a ton of motor learning,
which is. where like i did my research project
and things like that on and then um a couple
other classes that at the time i was like this
isn't that relevant to me because my world was
performance and specifically like a collegiate
competitive setting where it was more about like
public health initiatives in terms of trying
to get people into exercise what are the barriers
to that and so on so forth But now in my career
field, I'm like, oh, this was actually a lot
more relevant for me now than it was for me back
then. And so what was cool was everything that
I got to learn, especially on biomechanics and
motor learning, I got to apply the very next
day because in graduate school, our classes were
from 6 to 9 .30 p .m. And then by 5 .30, I'd
be in a weight room for the next 12 hours. It
was very much applicable. I consider myself very
lucky for getting that because I do hear that
a lot. And that people are like, okay, you're
either going to work in a rehab setting. So they
have you like running bike tests all day or,
you know, focusing on the smallest thing that
doesn't actually prepare you to be a coach. So
I got. kind of the best of both worlds, focusing
on the very small things in my undergrad of all
the nitty gritty science, and then a little bit
broader spectrum and how to work with people
as a graduate student, and then got to put it
into real life practice the very next day. You
mentioned motor learning. I've had this conversation
with a few people normally when I'm trying to
illustrate the importance of sleep in the fire
service. Talk to me about when you learn a skill
the importance of sleep to process that skill
and be a little bit better the next day yeah
so i mean i tell people all the time and you
know we just started a cadet class and i was
actually talking to them we started on monday
so what four days ago now um and when i spoke
to them i'm like emt school isn't very physically
demanding but it is very um like mentally demanding
in the sense that you have a ton to learn And
the learning you might think happens in the classroom,
but it doesn't. The learning is how much did
you remember the next day after your brain was
able to rest and try and push all of that from,
you know, your short -term memory into your long
-term memory so you can recall it. And the same
is true in terms of like motor learning and behavior
patterns, motor behavior patterns, and that your
body does need to rest. and recover so that way
you can same thing it's all has to do with our
brain and how we process things right and so
so that way your your body can recall those same
things what people call muscle memory is referred
to as procedural memory and that it's not your
muscles that remember how to do them it's your
nervous system and your brain and kind of like
what pathways are more active and they do that
through sleep yeah i think this is what's important
when i think about you know the shifts that i
worked and there are people out there working
even longer now you know if you are going to
be doing rope rescue training or you know als
training or whatever it is and then the next
day i've had this like i can't remember how to
tie that knot it's because if you haven't slept
that night you haven't given the body the ability
to actually take that and file it away and then
be able to retrieve it the next day and then
slightly better so if we really want to take
the performance side of, you know, fire and EMS
seriously, it's another, you know, another piece
of evidence in the case for a healthy firefighter
work week, because we just simply cannot advance
our learning if we're not giving the brain time
to process what we did the night before. Yeah,
absolutely. I think, I mean, being able to sleep
is, whenever I teach, there's like five pillars
of health and performance that I teach on. And
the first one is sleep. And my like one phrase
is like sleep is the magic pill. And that if
there's anything you want to improve, like whether
we're talking about like your health in terms
of like your, you know, your lab work and things
like that, your performance on the fire ground
or fitness, or if you want to improve your nutrition,
sleeping better. If you want to improve your
mental health, sleeping better. If you want to
improve your relationships, sleeping better.
So that way you're not a jerk or an asshole to
people when you interact with them. Um, sleep
is the magic pill that unfortunately for the
majority of the fire service, they, they never
get to take all that frequently. Yeah. Well,
there's, there's a revolution happening and people
listen to this podcast. A lot of heard me talking
about the 24 72, but it's, it's happening in
Florida. Now we've had, we're up to 10 fire departments
in the last two years, go to a 42 hour work week,
24 72. So I think this is what's so beautiful
is initially it was really, you know, the deaths,
the suicides, the cancers, the, you know, cardiac
issues, but now. we can start switching into
the performance and say well look this is how
much better of a firefighter of a paramedic you
will be if you were giving the same kind of environment
that we would give a an athlete now yes you have
to be awake every fourth day now but you've got
this extra rest and recovery and you know now
we've shown the the young candidates that we
actually care enough about them now all of a
sudden you've got a much higher uh recruitment
and now you don't have these vacancies with this
mandatory overtime either so it's like this this
beautiful, you know, solution to it, but it's
taken a long time to build this case to get people
to understand the why that you just cannot just
keep squeezing blood out of a stone because you're
going to end up with what we've got, which is
a nationwide recruitment crisis. Yeah. What's
I've been at my department for almost 10 years
now. And what is cool is to see people who have
been there, like who got there. after i've gotten
there um and so all they've known in the world
of like health and fitness right is that we we
teach on it from day one and now that's not to
say like every single person is the epitome of
all those behaviors we teach on right but that
it is so normal of a conversation that it's almost,
you know, just like talking about types of knots,
um, you know, amongst a crew. And so I think
with time that will happen too, in terms of,
I mean, it's starting to happen, but it'll happen
even more so, um, with, with hopefully the work
week schedule and 24 72 sounds awesome. Yes.
That's what I'm hearing so far. I don't get to
enjoy it. I left the fire service a few years
ago, but, uh, hopefully other people are. All
right. So you now, you know, you're working in
this collegiate setting at the moment. Did you
stay working with athletes, sporting athletes
before being introduced to the first responder
professions? So I did for a little bit. So I
was in grad school for two years where I was
coaching there. And then I actually stayed at
that same school post -grad school as an assistant.
And so I was no longer a student working as a
full -time assistant strength and conditioning
coach there, which actually I loved. That was...
so much fun. But I only got to do that tidbit
for about half a year. And then at the back half
of that year, I had to fill the role of interim
head, my head coach left for another school.
And so they didn't fill that position quickly,
especially not in the middle of the year, you're
not going to fill that position until summertime
in between kind of school years. And so I was
the interim head for six months. And I, there's
a lot I look back on and I grew a lot from that,
but I, it was not a time that I enjoyed. I was
25. I wasn't ready for the like micro politics
that is working in a collegiate setting and coaches
and things like that. It was a very stressful
position. I I didn't I did the best I could but
definitely wasn't prepared for on a managerial
level and so it was I was ready to leave the
collegiate setting after that especially if it
was like oh this is this is the top of the the
pyramid right being ahead um somewhere is the
top of the pyramid and granted it'll look a little
different depending on what school you get to
what sports you work with so on so forth but
I was like this this isn't it the same for me
um and so I wanted out of collegiates, and honestly,
I didn't care what I was going to. I was competing
in weightlifting at the time, and my main focus
at that time was to make a world team. And so
I was ready to move specifically closer to Texas,
ideally in Texas, because my coach was here.
At that time, and so I was like, cool, I would
travel back and forth from from Illinois to Texas
just to train. And so I was like, I'm going to
move to Texas, I was applying for like, personal
training jobs at your local gym, I was applying
to be a bank teller, banks, just so that I was
like, I just need, you know, something that can
help sustain my training, essentially. And then
as I'm looking for jobs, my position popped up
as a health and fitness coordinator. in Pflugerville
and it was very like I don't know I guess all
the stars aligned and that it's like well I've
never like I'd individually worked and coached
with a few paramedics and firefighters in Illinois
but never on like an entity level um but I was
like I know how to coach people. I know how to
teach people how to move. And I've worked with
everybody from, you know, 70 year old grandmothers
to six year old children at all aspects of life
and ability levels. And so, um, yeah, it, it
really, it popped up and kind of just all worked
out and that I applied for it and thankfully
got the job and, you know, here I am almost 10
years later. When you said weightlifting, was
that Olympic weightlifting? Yeah. I never made
the world team. You got pretty high then. Yeah,
I was a couple podium finishes in, I think like
probably 15, 16, 17. God, I think a second place
nationals was probably my best finish. And then
in... late 17, I got pregnant with my first son.
And so my truly competitive career kind of ended
there. Well, the reason I asked is you'd mentioned
about being told you didn't have the body for
a ballerina, you know, and the hand -eye coordination
for tennis. I think this is something that I
think it needs to be discussed. people look at
instagram now and they look at for example our
world you know the roided out beard wearing alpha
self -named alpha and then people like oh i want
to be like that guy and there's very little discussion
on um you know the body types you know mesomorph
ectomorph etc um so talk to me about that because
here you are being told you're the wrong body
type for one thing which again had you said come
hell or high water i'm gonna dance you'd still
be able to do that and you still be able to be
a performing ballet but would you be at the top
level maybe not yeah but you know the the the
uh what am i trying to say here um the disappointment
of being told that you're the wrong fit for one
thing usually means well okay well that means
i'm the right fit for something else then so
talk to me about that you know the the perception
of this air quotes perfect body compared to the
spectrum of body types that we all exist in yeah
i think um I think thankfully, you know, you
say like on social media, the like, self perpetuated
alpha, like there are some definitely like negative
things that are seen from social media. But I
think something that's really cool that I've
gotten to see over the years is, and maybe this
is more in the female space, maybe not as much
the male space, I'm not sure. But I get to see
those different possibilities now, like, my friends
who have daughters, their daughters get to grow
up seeing different possibilities, whereas like,
When I was a seven -year -old being told that
I'm never going to be a good ballerina because
I was too fat, I didn't know there was anything
else. And so whether people like it or not, your
genetics play a factor into how good you're going
to be at something. Now, you can do amazingly
almost in spite of them. Maybe I'm going to be
5 '5 and still an amazing swimmer. But if an
amazing swimmer is six, two up against an amazing
swimmer, who's five, five, like the person who's
six, two is going to win. Like you can still
be amazing and you can work amazingly hard, but
like when talent works hard, it's like the idea
of like when talent works hard, like game over.
And so your, you know, different body types are
going to lead into different things. And like,
that's your genetic component even down to like
I remember getting my like genetic code done
for some kind of like like health metric essentially
and they were looking a little different snippets
and the excuse me the doctor was talking to me
he was like are you a strength athlete and I
was like yeah he was like I can tell and that
like that's probably what you would do better
at and that your endurance, like traditionally
speaking, women are better at endurance versus
like true concentric strength and power. Whereas
like, that's not where I lean towards. And so
I think that's something also that needs to be
talked about that maybe ties into this room going
off in a completely different tangent is that
when people are young, exposing them to a variety
of things. One, for the reason that we talked
about in that like they're going to discover
something that maybe they're better at or like
in comparison to others. And then the tangent
would be in that it's also going to help them
like developmentally be stronger, have more resilient
bodies, be less prone to injury in the future
and so on and so forth. But I mean, your body
type is going to play a role into. quote unquote,
what you're good at. And if we think about the
fire ground, like I talk to people about this
all the time, like firefighting is like a big
person's game. And when I say big person, I mean
like a large body, like a taller person has more,
like it's a lot easier to throw a 24 foot ladder
when you're 6 '2 versus when you're 5 '2. It's
a lot easier to haul 70 pounds of gear when I
weigh 200 pounds versus if I weigh 130. And so
like you're... body type size, it plays a role.
That's not to say it's going to limit you forever
and ever. But it's something you need to take
into consideration. There's something I ask a
lot of the coaches and people that were high
level athletes when they were younger. The backstory
when I first came to the States, and I've said
this many times on here, so people have probably
heard it, you know, way too much. But I kept,
you know, after being here a little while, I
kept hearing the same what I call Uncle Rico
story. Well, I would have, should have, could
have if it wasn't for my ACL, my MCL, my labrum,
et cetera, et cetera. And these are people that
are, you know, late 20s, early 30s, and now they're
very deconditioned. And so it was really when
I started the podcast, I really started unpacking,
like, what are we doing to our children, our
youth athletes? Because you have this high level
of performance in high school that you don't
see in British schools, not when I was growing
up, at least. The best footballers obviously
would get groomed and, you know, sent through.
you know, training routes that ended up at Liverpool,
Manchester and everyone else. But the rest of
us just played sports. That was it. But after
you finish school, people kept playing sports,
cricket and rugby and football, you know, pub
leagues and local leagues. But here you saw this
super high level, you know, the weight rooms
and all this kind of things in high schools and
colleges. But then this steep drop off, you know,
when there was, you know, mental burnout, injuries,
et cetera. And you didn't have this. environment
for continued sports participation in 34 year
olds that you do see in other places in Europe.
So to me, what I realized is that in some areas,
the performance, the result of a game is more
important than the well -being and longevity
of the youth athlete. So what's your thoughts
on that? Yeah, I was actually talking to one
of our assistant coaches this week. about kind
of this idea in that similar to you and that
like in spain when you're growing up like you
play sports in school but it's as like part of
pe class like at least in the school that i went
to we like in like the neighboring schools we
didn't have organized sport the way they do in
like middle school and high school here that's
all club um and so if you're participating in
club like yes they do care about like Winning
and such, but also because there's so many years
prior to even reaching that point, unless you're
like such high level, you're, you're being pulled
out and essentially like groomed to participate
in sport. You're playing for fun, like, like,
I don't want to say strict fun, like they take
it seriously, but it's still fun. And that here,
I think we as a country. in the us we put so
much um value in high level athletics that it
becomes the thing and that like and this is again
a bias that i recognize in myself too like we
didn't grow up watching sports in my family like
we didn't watch sports on tv or anything like
that so i didn't grow up um putting a high value
on professional athletes like Any more than any
other profession. Right. And so like, I thought
they were cool. Like, that's awesome. But they
weren't like the ultimate. Whereas here now as
an adult, like I look at what professions get
put up, you know, on the billboards that every
kid wants to be. It's a professional athlete,
which like the performance coach in me loves.
I'm like, yes, like this person wants to play
sports for the rest of their life, which is so
cool. think it's a disservice because then if
if you're not that then what are you like if
that's what I'm striving for which like the majority
of football players I worked with in college
like you're not going to the NFL like and most
of the people aren't even making it to the collegiate
level like percentage wise I don't know what
those are off the top of my head but they are
teeny tiny and so um like If not that, then what
am I? And I think that's where like, I think
I've heard you call them Uncle Rico stories,
right? Here is, that's where that comes into
because if I couldn't be that, then why even
bother? Why even bother to continue participating
if I couldn't level up? Well, first of all, hopefully
because of the love of the game, if that's what
you were playing, right? But even below that,
because we're human bodies and we're, you know,
we're meant to move our bodies. That's how they,
like how they work the best. And so for like
your health and your longevity purposes, that
would be why. But if it wasn't, you know, I didn't
do it just for the love of the game, then why
do it at all? Which to a degree I get, because
like when I couldn't compete the way I wanted
to, I was like, screw it, I'm not going to compete.
But doesn't mean I stopped. Like I still did
just chose like, okay, I'm not going to be a
recreational competition. I can do true club,
but like I can still do. Yeah. I mean, it's really
interesting unpacking it as well. Cause you have
this, Oh God, what's that? I don't know why my
brain's not working very well today. This. What
is that term? Specificity. There we go. So you've
got these kids now and let's say they're a baseball
pitcher and they're pitching and they're doing
these strength and conditioning camps and they're
doing travel ball and then they blow their shoulder
out when they're 15 years old. And you listen
to, again, so many coaches like yourself and
athletes as well. It's the multi -sport athletes
that tend to do the best. And you think about
it, mentally, they're not just doing this one
sport over and over again. But also physically,
all those different planes of motion, all the
different team dynamics, it makes perfect sense.
But there's so much money in this kind of training
the youth athlete. And I've always said this.
You're telling me, for example, if you live in
Florida and your child is into baseball, that
no one in the state of Florida can challenge
your child, that your child is so good that you
have to go to Georgia or North Carolina. It doesn't
even make any sense when you think about it.
It is. I have two boys, a seven -year -old and
a four -year -old. The four -year -old does swim
class to learn how to swim and things like that,
but he's not really interested in sport right
now. My seven -year -old, he does jujitsu. He's
played soccer and things like that, but he's
into jujitsu and that's his thing, which is cool
because it's kind of a different... youth sport
model than what I hear like you know my friends
and my co -workers talk about when they're like
doing baseball for like seven months out of the
year or something like that um and you know traveling
and all these sorts of things I've coached at
the like I've done a couple hockey camps I've
taught yoga at hockey camp which is like so funny
but um teaching six -year -olds how to do yoga
is a that is a challenge and a really fun endeavor
but these kids are specific wow I cannot my brain
won't work either specializing I was gonna say
specifying specializing um really young and it's
and I see how it happens because I too am a parent
like I see how you participate in one thing you're
like oh I just They're doing okay, but they love
it. I want them to be able to do better and enjoy
it because they like it when they win. And so
we're going to do more of it because when I do
more of it, then they get better at it. In motor
behavior, there is an entire line of research
around how you look at practice. And you could
throw whatever like sport movement pattern, whatever
into practice, right? And so when you're looking
at practice, there's this thing called block
practice where you do the exact same thing over
and over again. And then there's sequential where
it's like, I'm always going to do A followed
by B followed by C followed by D. And then there's
random where it's like, you know, I still have
those same letters A through Z of drills or whatever.
And I'm just going to at random do them. And
what you find time and time again is that when
people do block practice, they get better. at
that exact scenario. And then when you do, you
know, sequential, they don't look as good as
they did for that exact scenario as the people
who do block practice, but they do better in
real life scenario. And then the same is true
for people who do random things. So, you know,
when you're testing them in like a confined setting,
they don't do as well. But when you're putting
them into the real world, they do well. I promise
I'm going to bring this around. And that if we
look at physical development as the entire of
life, right? If life is the entire sequence of
practice, if you are doing the same thing every
single year over and over again, you are going
to get really good at that one thing and have
huge glaring holes in others, which is why we
have kids throw out their shoulders and have
multiple, you know, surgeries by the time they're
17 years old. Versus if we took, again, looking
at the big spectrum, if we took more of a random
approach and if that approach is different sports
that they can participate in, so that way they
can develop, you know. different things because
each sport has something to offer but also lacks
something else so that way we can develop well
-rounded you know robust bodies and minds by
the time they're now entering the truly competitive
phase of like high school to go into college
to go on further if that's what they are but
then also robust bodies that can just survive
you know the the world and the fire service like
i see it in the academies where people have played
a single sport for a really really long time
and we're constantly battling you know the same
injury that is from that sport and we're not
playing the sport anymore but we're still seeing
like the the effects of it i guess is a good
way of saying it i think one of the the areas
that we've done a lot of damage as well is this
whole participation trophy conversation Because,
again, it's sending the message that if you didn't
win, then, as you said, who are you? You didn't
win. So what was the point? Why did you even
show up? You didn't win. Rather than, and I point
this out all the time, if you go to a tough mudder
and you run a half marathon with all these obstacles
and get electrocuted and climb under barbed wire,
and at the end, what do they put around your
neck? A participation trophy. Does it mean that
you didn't put any effort in? No, you just ran
half marathon through mud and barbed wire and
electrical wires. There's a difference between,
and I've never witnessed this to date, a team
of kids that put zero effort in that they just
gave a bunch of trophies to. But I've seen lots
of children that showed up for practice week
in, week out, in the rain, in the cold, in the
heat, tried their hardest and just weren't the
best kids on the field and didn't win. But they
got a trophy to say, you showed up all season
and you put the work in. So I think that kind
of rhetoric, which again comes from the same
roided out, beard wearing ding -dongs that we
see on... Instagram or the ones that are in the,
you know, the lazy boys that never even do any
exercise themselves is that we should be encouraging
kids to just play. Like you said, in Spain, you
know, you have the elitism. Okay. That's great.
You go, go be on the television and everyone
else it's called playing sport. You're not supposed
to win every single game. No, no sports team
on the planet has ever won every, every single
game. So I think that's a very damaging narrative
as well as to dissuade children. by saying if
you didn't win you don't deserve a trophy yeah
i think what this also brings up for me is like
this classification of athlete as well in that
like every something that i see now that i feel
like i didn't see 15 10 years ago is that now
everybody is an athlete which like Don't get
me wrong. I want everybody moving. I think there
are things that every human being should be able
to do. And I think they should have qualities
that most people would consider athletic. But
in my opinion, similar to how like you, if you
go out in sport and playing the game is like
cool. You like, if you go out and play soccer,
you are a soccer player. That is like, there's
the pride. And then if you win. awesome then
you get a trophy or whatever it is but like you're
out playing soccer I think and again this is
a bias that I recognize I think having been a
highly competitive athlete and having worked
with highly competitive athletes who like put
every like I was considering working at like
a part -time at a bank just so that way I could
train like the things that in my opinion athletes
do because they compete now whether that be at
a recreational level but like they have some
skin in the game of like i'm actually going up
against somebody to like measure quote -unquote
who's best then i get to like make that claim
versus like the participation trophy in my opinion
for adults is like them getting to call themselves
an athlete it's like cool if you're going to
be an athlete like you got to prove it somewhere
because people don't get to call themselves like
an NBA player, not playing the NBA. Not that,
you know, most people are playing in the NBA,
but like, to me, that's the participation trophy.
I'm an adult. It's like, I'm an athlete. I'm
like, you should be in shape, but like athletes
compete. Are you competing? Yes. Okay, great.
And cool. Love that for you. But yeah, that's,
that's my little, little soapbox of competition
of like, you know, participation trophies. Yeah,
I was an athlete, martial artist. So I did compete
in taekwondo, won national tournaments. But again,
you know, at my weight, at my belt, in my division.
So when you kind of filter it down, it wasn't
like I beat everyone in the UK, every fighter
by any means. That's good. It's a great achievement.
So and then when I went to university, my sports
science lecturers were actually taekwondo coaches.
So I fought for my college then as well. That's
cool. So I got a taste of that. It's kind of
a good segue though. But then I entered the fire
service. All of a sudden I shift now to tactical
athlete, which I think is far more important
than, you know, little high kicking men on the
top of a plastic trophy. So let's kind of transition
then. And if you want to put your disclaimer
in now, this would be a good time to do it. Talk
to me about the front door when you first went
into Pflugerville. Any kind of myths that you
brought in that were busted? And then what was
the kind of environment when you walked through
the front? Yeah, so just quick disclaimer, anything
that I share here is my personal opinion and
my experience. It doesn't reflect the opinion
of that of my employer, right? And so some really
interesting things that I learned even just in
the application process that I didn't know and
that it's something that I share with coaches
who say they want to come into tactical now is
like, everybody thinks tactical and by nature,
a lot of the things that apply to the military,
they think apply overall. So like having grown
up around the military, like I know that like
people have to make specific like fitness standards
and they're being tested on their fitness on
minimally an annual basis and so on and so forth.
I thought that like, that was true in the fire
service. Not because I knew of anything, just
because I made the assumption that like. oh,
well, like it would make sense for them to be
in shape. They're all over the country. And,
you know, I knew that the NFPA existed, but I
didn't know like recommendation versus requirement
and all these things, right. Going in, I was
like, oh, it would make sense that every firefighter
on the planet, or at least in our country, like
does that. And so that was a huge, like myth
busted in itself. And that I was like, okay,
learning that's not the case. And then what was
even crazier to me was that like, we could be,
you know, a single department can butt up to
another department, and they can do things completely
differently that they really were, you know,
all these individual little islands that like,
obviously work together, but do things completely
differently, which is like, that was something
that blew my mind coming into work with a fire
service. And so When I came in to start working
with Pflugerville, it was so much fun. We were
small. I mean, we're still relatively small,
a little over 200 people now, but there was only
75 people there when I first started. And so
I got to know every single person. Essentially,
the way I was coaching just one football team.
that's the amount of people, right? I was, I
was dealing with. And so I wasn't the first attempt
at health and fitness within our department.
It actually, I was hired in 2016. They actually
started some of that in 2011 with like some annual
testing. And then they had hired a a contractor
who came in he was a gentleman who owned a local
gym to to train the firefighters and i think
unfortunately um didn't know either a who he
was working with in their needs or b the ability
to do that was outside of his skill set and he
just maybe wasn't aware of that but unfortunately
he left a bad taste in their mouth for exercise
people, quote unquote, coming in. But the good
news is he was the complete opposite of me. And
so from my understanding, he looked a little
bit, you know, like the ding dong, bearded, alpha,
macho, do this because it's hard. Not like, hey,
we're going to do this, which is actually what's
going to make you better at X, Y, and Z from
like a progressive standpoint. It's like. eat
dirt because then you're tough kind of thing.
Um, and so he was like, I was the complete opposite
of him. And so either a, I was welcomed with
open arms or B I was met with skepticism because
of their previous experience. But I think with
time getting to know people, you know, effectively
coaching people, so on and so forth, like that
dissipated pretty quickly when they learned,
Oh, this is not that. And so, yeah, that's kind
of what I met up front. There was a little resistance
up front as there is with anything, but I think
I had a relatively, quote unquote, like easy
going of it in comparison to other people who
are starting programs at departments. What was
your training philosophy when you first entered?
Because there's so much evolution in this world
the last 10 years. How did you kind of view the
tactical athlete in training them? year one and
how has that evolved to 2025 um i had a i still
have it it's people won't might not like this
but like the mindset i had going in was that
firefighters are not athletes because my definition
of an athlete was somebody who was putting their
training above everything else so like A lot
of times when I was working with student athletes,
it wasn't hard to get them to train. It wasn't
hard to get them to come to practice. It was
hard to get them to like do their homework, you
know, go to class. Like they were athlete students.
And so what you could ask of them before they
would gripe, what you could push them to before
they would be like, yeah, I'm not doing that
was pretty high because also like they're at
a point where like, they've been doing this to
some degree for so long. It is the status quo
of training. And so they have relatively high
training ages depending on, you know, whether
they're freshmen or seniors that changes, but
like, I know what their bodies are currently
capable of so on and so forth based on the sport
demand, all these things. And so going in. I
brought the methodology of high -quality training.
That applies to anybody, in my opinion, whether
we're talking about the collegiate athlete, the
firefighter, or my 70 -year -old grandma, or
a desk jockey who does that. High -quality training
is high -quality training. It looks at, hey,
what are the demands? Where do they currently
sit? So what are they lacking to reach those
demands and how can we make them more robust?
In my opinion, that's not training an athlete.
That's just high quality training, regardless
of who you're talking about. And so that was
my approach in taking that. And what I did at
the time, especially because we had so few people,
is there were some... points of autonomy where
you could choose what you were doing, but we
were all going to do the same thing. So that
way I knew that everybody could move sufficiently
in overall movement patterns. Because once they
know how to do that, then we can start doing,
you know, some, some real fun things or those
who want can push even further. But if you push
far on, you know, unstable joints weak systems
that's how people end up getting hurt and so
it has always been my approach and still is my
approach to like build a robust human body in
a way that they enjoy it what has changed maybe
not drastically but maybe has become more of
an emphasis now you know in 2025 versus then
is that I think the largest component of my job
is for people to have a positive experience with
health and fitness. And I make that clear to
everybody who comes in and wants to work with
us, whether or not like that. I have a few like
contracted coaches that come in and work. I have
an assistant coach. or like just you know anybody
who wants to come in and speak on it and so on
so forth or my my health and fitness work group
which is like my pure fitness trainers essentially
and that our job is to give people a positive
experience with health and fitness and like if
there is a time to like you know light a fire
under their ass we will do that but whatever
that positive but whatever they're looking for
in terms of positive we provide that to the best
of our ability for the reason we talked about
with the uncle ricos I don't want people to stop
training. And even if they don't like it, they
at least understand the importance of it. So
they'll do something in a way that carries them
through their career and beyond. That is probably
the biggest thing that has changed for me. Brilliant.
Well, you mentioned about moving sufficiently.
Talk to me about the kind of physical hiring
standards and what is the spectrum of candidate
that you're getting at the front door? Yeah,
so our hiring standards now are, they seem relatively
low. And I'll talk about why. In that we require
people to do, we actually don't require CPET
up front. And we can talk about why in a bit,
but we require people to do a minimum of seven
pushups to a five inch block and an 80 beats
per minute metronome, a minute side plank on
each side, and then a 5k bike test to an equivalent
of an eight met estimated eight met VO two max.
And so This has changed a lot. That's recent
as of the last, what year is it? It's 2025, so
I would say since 2021. And we've gone through
a couple iterations. When I first started working
there, passing the CPAT was a requirement up
front. And then we did a mass hiring of paramedics
and then got them their fire, like help. Obviously
they got it, but like put them through a fire
academy to get their fire cert so that they were
firefighter paramedics. And they got like a year
to pass the CPAT upon hiring. And then it was
six months upon hiring. So that way we keep them
because. And again, a lot of this is all above
me. It's more of just like, how can we fill the
need? And we needed paramedics at the time. So
we hired a bunch of them and did that. And then
as of 2021, I think the hiring started in 2022.
Don't quote me on the exact year. They all kind
of blend together. But we now do cadet academies.
So people come in with or without their... their
certs, and then go through a foreign academy.
The first one we did, we actually had zero requirements.
And so the zero requirements resulted in a higher
failure rate for sure. But what they allowed
us to do is to kind of see if people come in
at this, you know, being this fit, then we can
get them to where we need them to be. And so
that's where we came with those standards that
i just mentioned with the goal being get the
best people and train them to be fit because
like anybody with high quality training and the
right mentality can can get in good shape they
just maybe didn't have the opportunity and maybe
they didn't have the knowledge so on so forth
um and so I would say from a fitness perspective,
we take an inclusive standpoint because we have
the infrastructure to train them and get them
where they need to be. If you could be queen
for a day and write a test of where a tactical
athlete, a firefighter should be, what would
that look like? Like a singular test? Like if
this person passes this test and they get a high
rise fire and have to climb 20 stories with a
hundred pounds of gear, that person will be able
to smash it. That kind of test. And are, are
they currently a firefighter or not? Yes. No.
So someone who's in, because the thing is, and
we'll get to this in a minute. there there's
there's two paths to be in a firefight there's
one a lot of us did where we put ourselves through
the academy you know and then certainly 20 years
ago when i was testing had to compete against
thousands of people to get you know one of 20
30 jobs yeah um and then absolutely needs a place
as well there's a second as you said citizens
one you know with mentorship that I would argue
allows people in underserved communities who
can't afford to put themselves through fire academy,
maybe it never even came across their radar in
their particular community, to also become a
phenomenal firefighter as well. But those two
intersect at someone who's truly ready to be
on a rig now. So at that point, they're about
to walk through the fire station. They could
get who knows what come through as their first
call. Fitness test for that person, male or female.
Do I get to put them through a battery of tests
or is it literally just one? Okay. Cause I think
that's important as well. And that, first of
all, any one test that you pick is never going
to be perfect. Cause it's always going to miss
the mark on something. Yeah. It's always going
to miss the mark on something because even if
you were like, Hey, I'm going to make it. like
a structure fire well is it the structure fire
where i'm climbing 20 stairs or is it you know
a structure fire where instead of like i'm going
up i'm now you know searching for an expansive
amount in a commercial building and like those
two similar but also different demands or am
i on a you know like even though we're structural
firefighters we still work grass fires where
i'm out there walking for three miles or whatever
so um There would be one. Maybe I tell you what
we currently do now, which by no means do I think
is perfect currently. And then we can go from
there. And that one, they would do some kind
of occupational type testing in gear. And so
we kind of use it. We kill two birds with one
stone and that in gear we run through, we call
it the consumption drill because we do measure,
you know, the amount of air you consume during
that time. But also it's based off of an assessment
that has a ton of research behind it, really
out of Canada to say like, Hey, if you can do,
you know, these, it's either eight or 10. And
I remember off the top of my head, depending
on how you count them events and they're, you
know, in gear, they're climbing up and down ladders.
excuse me they're they're throwing ladders so
on so forth dragging dummies pulling sleds these
sorts of things not that you actually pull a
sled but just to mimic the strength required
right um so some kind of like occupational type
obstacle course in that setting um meeting those
metrics. So again, ours is based off of the research
that had been done over a couple decades, the
course of a couple decades. And so it's finishing
that within eight minutes. There would definitely
be a, there would be a requirement of a VO2 max
test and how you want to, you know, measure that,
whether you're running or biking or, you know,
whatever that might be. And what's good about
that is you can estimate that even not perfect.
but also like really cost effective when we're
talking about departments that are like shoestringing
some budgets together. And so there would be
some way to measure their VO2 max, and it would
not be stratified by age or by sex. It would
be regardless of who you are at, we would be
at a minimum of 10 mets. That would be a minimum.
In my opinion, I do think like shooting for the
12 is actually ideal. Um, and people can come
at me for that, but I think a minimum of 10.
And so we would have those two, we would have,
depending on your, and I think this is where
things change too, depending on the area you
serve and kind of what that looks like, whether
we're talking like Because like in your instance
where you're saying like, hey, somebody has to
make it up 20 flights of steps. We don't even
have a building that's like half that tall. I
think our highest is five. And so not to say
that that isn't important, but your ability to
cover. ground for a long period of time in our
case could be more helpful because we do run
some grass fires and things like that so it would
be some kind of like a longer endurance event
um whether or not you wanted that to be like
i think the bare minimum of that what we use
is the nwcg packwalk test which i by no means
do i think is the highest standard in any way
shape or form um but that could work or if you
were doing some like a timed test on like a really
high tower um but again i don't know what the
like magic measurement for that would be you'd
have to like run a few things look at some data
to come up with that um and then we do one last
one which i think isn't as crucial to saying
hey you were clear to be a firefighter but i
think is crucial from a personal fitness development
type thing where you would put them through a
battery of tests like vertical jump you know
understanding their their weight body fat percentage
skeletal muscle mass things like that Some kind
of maximal strength lift, whether or not like
that's a rep max, like type deadlift or squat,
or we use an isometric mid five pool. Muscular
endurance in terms of pushups, inverted rows,
side planks for low back health. And some kind
of like field test, which would qualify as your
VO2 max like estimator. That was a ton of rambling.
And I don't feel like I answered your question.
No, you did. Because you're spitballing at this
point. Firstly, it's funny. You mentioned the
pack test. I've had a few, you know, quite a
few wildland people on here. And I always ask
them, you know, is that up a hill? And they're
like, no, it's flat. No, it's totally flat. Let
me get this straight. The test that you have
to be a wildland firefighter that involves climbing
up mountains is walking a mile and a half on
a flat road. You know, I don't know. If you know
who Austin Womack is, but he is a, I met him
because he was a strength coach for the Austin
Fire Department at the time. He now works for
CAL FIRE. He is a, is, serves in the, not National
Guard, but the Army Reserve National Guard. I
hate me if I got that wrong. But he was a collegiate
and a professional strength and conditioning
coach. He's also been a wildland firefighter
previous to his strength coach career, post his
strength coach career. And he is one of the people
trying to kind of revolutionize strength conditioning
in the wildland firefighting world. And so, yeah,
by no means is it the test. But if we're looking
at something, hey, that's a little bit longer
endurance phase. Because here's the thing, you
can like. And almost every firefighter that I've
encountered can like, you can suffer through
the sock for 10 minutes, which like a lot of
when we're talking about like even the operational
type obstacle courses, like 10, 15 minutes, it
takes something different to do something for
45. Not only in terms of like energy systems
and your robot capacity and these sorts of things,
but like really just like. the mental aspect
of it as well and so that's why i think doing
something with a longer longer type time frame
is important one of my guests said something
quite a while ago now but it really stuck with
me he said uh the people that are you know bucking
fitness standards are basically saying that they're
scared to be tired and i was like god that is
so spot on and then if you really reframe that
then do you want the person who is in that room
with you to be scared, to be tired. That's the
worst thing you could possibly have is someone
who's going to tap out the moment they get uncomfortable.
So this is where this importance of these high
fitness standards really lies is, you know, when
you do these incrementally and you work up to
a high level of fitness, and then you have those
red line workouts that really are horrible once
a week, whatever it ends up being, you know,
when you get into that life or death situation.
you're okay being uncomfortable. You've got the
muscular capacity, the aerobic endurance to see
through whatever needs to be done. But if you've
lowered the bar to where someone's worst day
happens in the fire room, that is an absolute
recipe for disaster. Yeah. I think whenever,
like, I think most people would say, I'm not
afraid to be tired. And I'm like, okay, you may
not be afraid of it, but if your body can't take
it. then you should be afraid of it. And that
like some people approach it in that sense. They're
like, well, I mean, I ain't scared. I just don't
want to do it. And it's like, cool. And why is
that? You know, and even like, I think the really
important thing that you just kind of like, you
know, barely touched on, but is the incremental
process of it happening is so important. I think
a lot of people. are, you know, understandably
so either scared or their pushback comes from
maybe not seeing that picture of it being gradual
of being like, cool, well, I know I'm not there
right now. So if you were to implement them as
is right now, I'd be on the chopping block, or,
you know, however you want to phrase it, I'd
be in trouble. But, okay, you're not there now,
but what if we gave you the tools to get there
by X amount of time? I was on a panel a couple
weeks ago, and there was a chief on it who I
think said something so beautifully. He said,
you love your people by holding them to high
standards and supporting them to reach those
high standards. And I don't care what we're talking
about, whether it be fitness or, you know, EMS
skills or fire skills or whatever it may be.
Like people say they're the best, which like,
I want people to be the best, right? Because
when my family needs you, I want you to be the
best. Like I don't live in Pflugerville, but.
I would, the reason I want to live in Pflugerville
is because I know that if anything happens to
my family, they are a okay. And so you want them
to be the best. And so cool. Hold them to those
high standards. You have to say, here's what
the best is, but also like, here's how we get
there. And should you fall, we're going to say
like, Hey, you probably shouldn't have fallen.
However, Here's how we don't fall in the future.
Let's recognize whatever happens so that way
it doesn't happen again. And then let's get you
back up to where now you don't have to fall or
you are less likely. You have more options so
that way you don't fall. Whether we're talking
like, hey, somebody literally fell and rolled
their ankle. Guess what? I'm going to build them,
help them build a robust system to where now
they can jump on one foot from left to right.
guess what? They're more, they're less likely
to roll an ankle at that point. So how do we
give them whatever support they need in order
to like, you know, figuratively jump from left
to right on an ankle, whether that be in fitness
in my realm or EMS skills, fire skills, leadership,
so on and so forth. This is the pushback you
get when you talk about fitness standards is,
oh, you're just trying to take a jobs. And my
thing is firstly, well, What kind of illusion
did you have at the front door? Did you not go
to a fire academy? Did they not make you wear
your gear and carry hoes up flights and flights
of stairs and drag dummies and chop wood and
do all these things that are really hard? And
you get hot and you get tired. That was the front
door. So the fact that you're even having the
audacity to say you're trying to take out jobs
is the assumption that no one told you it was
going to be hard. which is complete rubbish.
So, you know, exactly like you said, the solution
is to put these standards in place. But of course,
that doesn't mean tomorrow you have to be, you
know, doing 12 mets. If you've fallen behind,
and I think the work week is a big part of this,
because that doesn't give you an environment
to stay in shape, to, you know, control your
body composition, to keep your testosterone high.
So once we fix that as a profession, now we have
to go from this. you know, protecting people
that are out of shape and look at it as the complete
opposite, which is you are, if you want, if you
really love your people, you will fight for fitness
standards so they have longevity in their career
and longevity in retirement. But then there has
to be an on -ramp process, you know, a year,
18 months. Okay, here's, you know, we're going
to help you. We've got peer fitness trainers.
We're going to do all the things we can. But
then you're going to have two types of people.
You're going to have the person who became incrementally
deconditioned that works their way back up. huge
success and you're going to have some of them
that have no intention of putting the work in
and you're going to have to have the conversation
all right well then what else do you want to
do we've got some openings in fire prevention
but apart from that you know because you're not
fitting the standards and you speak to special
forces special operations ocean lifeguards and
you say what if someone said i don't want to
work out it's too hard how long would you last
in those teams? You wouldn't, you'd be gone.
So you have to also put your big girl and boy
pants on and draw a line in the sand and say,
look, for someone to be deemed ready to be on
a truck company or an engine company or on a
rescue, you have to be able to do the job. And
we told you that in day one in Florida, our certification
is named minimum standards. That's as shit as
you should ever be your entire career. We labeled
it for you. So don't turn around now and say
it's not fair when we ask you to be held to a
standard because it was always fair. Yeah. When
like we get on these discussions, I think something
that comes up for me often as well is when people
are trying to support those people. That is where
having. I will always argue to have a professional
in place. And now that doesn't mean you have
to have necessarily an entirely full -time position
like I do. But how can you figure out how to
work with somebody whose expertise is health
and fitness? Because for the same reason that
you have experienced people teaching your EMS
skills, in my opinion, you should have an experienced
person at least overseeing the teaching of this
and being able to put the right methodology in
place. Because I think what unfortunately does
happen many times in that... We have the people
who are sitting well below where they need to
be, right? Well below those minimum standards
that you speak of. And the message that is said
to them is like, well, you fucking signed on
the dotted line, get your shit together and go.
Which also I probably should have checked if
I could cuss in here, but - You can, you can.
Okay, good. Cause I do a lot. Which like, I agree
with, like you did. Sign on the dotted line.
And so you do need to get your shit together
and go. But if everybody is just telling them
that, and they're the person who's like, I don't,
like, that's not working for me. Because when
I entered, when I did walk through that front
door, those standards weren't implicitly said,
like, or even implied. The implication was like,
hey, you got in, attaboy, you did it. In all
fairness, that's what they walked into. And so
if we are trying to change that, we need to do
it in a way where we can allow those people to
give a shit. And so having somebody be there
to truly support them in a way that makes sense
is huge. And there was one gentleman, he was
one of my favorite people on the planet. Um,
when I first showed up, he made it very clear.
And he says, I do not like exercise. I do not
enjoy exercise. I will hate the entire time you
come here. And I said, okay, he said, but you're
going to do something. And he said, I have to.
And so I was, I said, cool, you're going to walk
on this treadmill. And he did. Every time I showed
up, every time I came around the stations, we
would run our workout. He would walk on the treadmill.
he'd walk on the treadmill and you know, the
more times I came, the more questions I would
ask him, I would ask about his family. I would
ask about like what his kids were into, what
activities were they doing? So on and so forth.
It took three months and finally said, Vanessa,
I'm going to join y 'all today. And I said, cool.
Like didn't make a big deal out of it. It's like
when, when your kid finally eats the green vegetable,
you're like, cool. And inside I'm like, yes,
did it. Right. But I didn't show up and say like,
well, you fucking signed on the dotted line.
Get your shit together. Let's go. Because I'm
working with grown ass adults who have made their
own decisions up until this point. And again,
when they walked through those front doors, the
expectations that currently exist were not there.
And you can say like, you know, I can beat the
drum as loud as I can. And for some people beating
the drum works, but for other people's union,
for other people's, well, for other people, you
just need to like have a bit of a quieter conversation
with them and kind of like, you know, like the
timid animal you're trying to feed, like let
them come to you and simply be there. Now, obviously
there's a timeframe for that, but you still have
to, I think, keep in mind, like, approach this
in a way and it's different if i'm you know you're
a battalion chief coming from it or like if you're
the peer fitness trainer or the coach in my perspective
like coming to it you have you have different
roles to play yeah no i mean i've saw that myself
a couple of times in in departments like california
and i was there there was a culture of fitness
and again they had i worked out the other day
i was one the top one percent of this list for
the first class after attrition through probationary
years that's how competitive it was one percent
and so they had a culture of fitness so when
i think about it you know the cruise that i was
on we were always whether it was volleyball actual
workouts um you know that's where i got introduced
to crossfit back in 2006 my friend came back
and was swinging this cannonball cannonball with
a handle i'm like what are you doing um and so
you know so that There was that culture at the
front door. So even though they didn't have specific
fitness standards, you know, you'd been through
such a crucible that that's the kind of human
being that you were. And anyone that even starts
flipping, the rest of the crew just brought them
back up and we got them back involved. But it's
also the environment. Like I said, I'm always
very careful to say, look, you know, if you're
going to have mandatory overtime all the time
and you're working people 80 hours a week. How
can you then turn around and say you're going
to hold them to a fitness standard when you haven't
even given them the environment to thrive? But
you've also got to walk the walk yourself. And
I saw my social media blow up after Pete Hegseth,
is that his name, speech to the military about,
you know, they all need to be in shape now. And
it's like, well, that's all well and good. But
your same group that you're attached to, your
political party, also said that they were going
to make America healthy again. And we haven't
heard a damn thing about that till almost a year.
Well, who are you recruiting from? America. So
you're telling the military members that they
need to be in shape, but you're doing nothing
to make Americans be in shape. You haven't fixed
anything post -COVID. There's not organic farms
being bolstered now. There's not PE programs
being put back in schools. You know, all these
things that have to be in place as well. So I
agree with you completely. You know, build it,
they will come. You've got to set a standard.
And that's what I was going to say. But there
was other stations where I would be out there
on my own doing a CrossFit workout for weeks.
And then one day someone would come. And then
there'd be two of us and then three of us and
four of us. Then I'd be on days off and visit
the station and my crew would still be working
out without me. That's exactly what you're talking
about. But, you know, there's also... you know,
that environmental ownership where we've got
to fix the work. We've got to have the upper
echelon that are also in shape. You can't just,
you know, virtue signal fitness without walking
the walk and then create an environment that
allows it to happen in the first place. Yeah.
And, you know, I think a lot of people struggle
in the same sense that like, in my opinion, the
fire service is just like a microscope on like
the American public. And that like the same issues
that the American public has in terms of like,
you know, diabetes, sleep apnea, like all of
their blood markers, so on and so forth. The
struggle to exercise, all of the things. It all
happens in the fire service as well. Now, the
stakes are high in that the general population
doesn't have the risk of dying as the fire service
has because they don't do a job that can kill
them on a daily basis. But the struggles are
still there. Because even if the environment,
like, at our department, we offer overtime for
people to work out. Like, they can stay up to,
like, it essentially comes out to, like, twice
a week. You can work out for an hour and get
paid to do that. Which is amazing. And honestly,
I've never, like, I haven't, that wasn't my idea.
That was... you know, the fire chief's idea.
And thankfully we've been able to keep that the
entire time that I'm there trying to provide
like an answer to this barrier of like, well,
it's important that you work out. And so here's
an opportunity for that. But like life is still
busy. Life is still hard. And so, and, and I
understand that. Like I. I've worked for the
fire service for almost 10 years now. And five
years ago, I guess more than that now. Oh my
goodness. Yeah, I guess seven years ago, my husband
was like, cool, I want to be a firefighter. So
like, I live that life as well. And he works
24, 48. It's like, I understand the struggle.
I'm a strength coach and I still struggle to
fit all the things in all the time. And so I
get that. And so I think an important. piece
is like the educational component and almost
like bring this back to what we talked about
with like these kids right it should be like
the joy of the game that keeps you playing whether
or not like cool I get to you know play I get
to practice five times a week and then compete
at a high level on the weekend like that's that's
that's the peak of the pyramid right but if I'm
not there then okay, maybe I get to exercise
three times a week and, you know, try and eat
a vegetable, which it seems like silly, silly
in quotation marks, conversations to have with
grown people who are doing a job that can kill
them. But it's the reality of where we are because
life is really freaking hard. And everybody is
busy and people, the majority of firefighters
in the country are not working a 24 72. And so
they're trying to fit in all the things and,
you know, be the parents that they are, be the
spouses they want to be and still like find time
to rest. Like it's incredibly difficult. And
so I get that. And so I think the, like the education
always needs to be in the message needs to be
like, Hey. You might not be, you know, at peak
level 10 because life is stressful right now.
Maybe you're dealing with X, Y, and Z, but can
you be at like seven and a half? So that way
when life slows down, great, I can now bump up
to an eight. I can bump up to an eight and a
half and so on and so forth and like ride the
ebbs and flows that is life. I think so often
the fire service, it's human nature in one, but
I think especially too in the fire service, it
is so all or nothing. And also like, Because
firefighters' jobs are, like, problem presents,
I solve. Because, like, you are called to a problem.
Your job is literally to solve that problem well
enough until you can hand it off to people who
can solve it even further. Which, like, is great,
but also is really difficult in the sense that
if that is the pathway I am used to of, like...
problem here problem solved problem here problem
solved versus like I'm gonna have to constantly
work on this it is an ever -evolving problem
that actually can never be solved because we're
constantly moving the goalposts to a degree is
is hard and I get that and I just I think it
needs to be said because like they get it life's
hard but we gotta do it Well, I think this goes
back as well, just to flog the horse one more
time with the 2472. And it's great because we're
talking, you're in Texas, Plano just became the
first department. I just listened to that podcast
you did with the city manager from there. Yeah.
Yep. So there we go. He's broken the dam now.
So we'll see who's next in Texas. But this is
it. If we're going to ask people to be there
on everyone's worst day. We've got to create
space for training, for time with family, for
rest and recovery and sleep, you know, mobility
and hydration and all the other things that we
talk about because these are, you know, I mean,
they are athletes, tactical athletes, and they're
using that for a reason because, you know, God
forbid you have a, you know, 9 -11 or a Vega
shooting, you are going to have to operate at
an extremely high physical level and, you know,
a mental acuity level as well. So, so imperative.
I know we're kind of getting short of time now,
so I want to hit firefighter strength coach.
So outside of Plougaville, talk to me about the
programming you offer everyone. Yeah, so it's
funny. When my kid was one, I had a firefighter
say like, hey, you should like kind of bottle
this up and share this with the world, like what
you've done here. I'd been at the fire department
for, I guess, three years at that point. And
I said, you should kind of bottle this up and
share this with the world. And I was like, that
sounds like a great idea. But I was in the throes
of having a newborn. My husband was in EMT school.
Like, I was like, absolutely not. No. And then
a couple years ago, I was finally like, okay,
it's time to like start kind of sharing what
I've been lucky enough to, you know, do and help
firefighters with. and things like that and so
so when and I was also tired of people like coming
up to me showing me their phone and be like hey
have you seen this and it's like some guy online
like spewing bullshit about you know getting
sun for 92 minutes first thing in the morning
and that's what he has to do and that's why he
can't make the health gains because I don't see
I don't get 92 minutes of sunlight in the morning
and so I can't be healthier and it's like okay
So that's when I made the, you know, constantly
regrettable decision to start like putting things
out online to share with the world and try and
not only improve like, you know, the fire department
that I work with full time, but also like the
lives and fire departments of those around. And
so I've gotten to do some really cool things.
I've gotten to go out and... And speak at different
symposiums, seminars. I've gotten to write articles,
both for like individual departments to share
with their departments or kind of with some bigger
blogs and things like that. I've gone out and
taught workshops at prior departments. I've worked
with departments on policymaking, on how to.
implement fitness standards and consulted on
that. I've also worked with firefighters like
on a one -on -one basis or also have a few programs
that float around out there as well to help them
kind of fill the gap that I see exists right
now. in the fire like in the fire service on
a national conversation like i have one program
um it's called ignition and it's about like getting
people into training like there's so much out
there that's like hey here's the exercise plan
that currently exists like here's your four to
five times a week blah blah blah all these things
and it's like cool i have people who and like
knock on wood i don't i don't but there are firefighters
out there that like currently don't exercise
at all and so like how do we talk to them in
a way that makes sense for the fire service?
Like ties everything back to what they do, not
only to like how important their job is and their
purpose in that, but also like you are more than
a firefighter. And my goal ultimately is for
you to like live strong lives. That's my tagline,
like strong work, strong minds, strong lives.
And that like. outside of being a firefighter,
I want you to be able to do the things that you
want to do. Once you've decided your fire career
is over, and I say you decided because you didn't
have to medically retire because your back couldn't
handle it anymore. Because your shoulder was
like, you know, just couldn't do it. Like once
you decide you are done with your career in the
fire service, like you get to also do the amazing
things that you would like to do. Um, and so
kind of that is everything that is firefighter
strength coach in one. Beautiful. And for people
listening, where can they find that, um, the
website and then you online as far as social
media? Yeah. So I am mostly on Instagram firefighter
strength coach, and then, um, just. firefighter
strength coach .com the blog that's up there
um and so there's there's a ton of free resources
on there another ton there should be more but
um there are free resources on there for people
to um not only get started um but there's like
you speak a lot about testosterone there's a
testosterone guide um on my website as well and
so yeah and find me online brilliant Well, I
want to thank Trevor again. And I want to thank
you so much. I think we need to do another interview
down the road because you didn't even really
dip into programming or any of that area. Yeah,
I would love to. And I think it's important to
like talk both, right? And that like, hey, we've
got to talk, you know, the big things that kind
of get us here. And then let's talk nitty gritty
for the people who like, you know, want to hear
us nerd out about all that stuff. Absolutely.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Absolutely. Thanks so much for
having me.