WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend

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and their story, listen to episode 808 with the

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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany

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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Geering, and this

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week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the

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show Australian firefighter Matt McLaughlin.

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Now, what makes this conversation so powerful

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is, as you will hear, Matt, like many of us,

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had his own mental health struggles and tried

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the therapies that were presented to him, the

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counseling, the EMDR, some of the other areas.

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But it was only when he came across MDMA -led

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psychotherapy that he truly began to see true,

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true results. So we discuss a host of topics

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from his journey into the fire service. His time

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in the military, serving in East Timor, responding

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to wildfires and cyclones, losing his father,

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his powerful experience with MDMA -led psychotherapy,

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how that helped reframe the loss in the fire

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service, and so much more. Now, before we get

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to this incredibly powerful and important conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So one last note, three quarters

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of the way through the interview, my internet

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died in my street. So it was a few days before

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we were able to reschedule and finish off the

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conversation. So there may be a slight overlap

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in a couple of things that we talked about. So

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with that being said, I introduce to you Matt

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McLaughlin. Enjoy. Well, Matt, I want to start

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by saying thank you so much for coming on the

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Behind the Shield podcast. It is 8am here. It

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is 8pm in Perth, Australia. So thank you for

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staying up a little bit longer to have this conversation

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today. Thanks, Matt. It's a pleasure to be here.

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I've been listening to your podcast for a long

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time. So it's pretty humbling to be on the other

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side, I guess. Well, what you're about to tell

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us, though, is amazing. And I think especially

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coming from that side of the world, I haven't

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had a huge amount of guests. I think I've had

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one from New Zealand. I think that's it. And

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then a few people from Australia. But this is

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a global message that we're going to be talking

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about. And what you're able to do in Australia

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is very unique compared to a lot of parts of

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the world. So I'm excited for this. Very first

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question. I kind of mentioned Perth in general.

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Where exactly are we finding you this evening?

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Yeah, I'm in Perth. Just, I guess, out of metro

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suburbs, seven or eight k's from the city. Perfect

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spring day here today. We had a long winter,

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late long winter. So, yeah, we sort of had nudging

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30s all week and blue skies and sunshine. So

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it's been perfect. I'm going totally off the

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track for a second. But when you're talking a

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few kilometres away from the city. What is it

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like as far as a ratio of salary compared to

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the affordability of homes for a lot of Australian

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firefighters? It's ridiculous, if I'm honest.

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I think the median house price, I'm in Bayswater,

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which is a... They've built a bit of a transport

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hub sort of close to or in Bayswater. So we're

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connected well to the city, to the airport, and

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then out to a couple of other places. But that

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has contributed to it a bit. But Perth in general,

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I think Australia in general, the house prices

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are just ridiculous. As far as our salaries go,

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we're in the middle of EBA negotiations at the

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moment, and that's sort of part of it is we've

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had. probably 10 years of $1 ,000 a year increases

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in our salary, which when you look at, especially

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through COVID, the probably CPI has gone up 5%,

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6 % every year. Yeah, we haven't kept up with

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it at all. So it's a bit of a worry, especially

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having kids that are, I've got a 17 and a nearly

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19 -year -old that I really can't see how they

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would ever really be able to afford a house.

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So what about public support? You know, we, especially

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after 9 -11 here, you know, the support for the

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American firefighter went through the roof. A

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lot of people meant that from their heart. There's

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also a large portion that it was lip service

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when it came to negotiations or paying for FDNY,

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you know, cancers after 9 -11. That support wasn't

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as obvious. What are you seeing as far as Australia,

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the general population being behind you guys

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when you're negotiating or asking for help? It's

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been good. They've taken a bit of a different,

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we've had a bit of a change in leadership in

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our union. So the tack they've taken is very

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much more trying to get some public support,

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just marking up trucks with chalk and a lot more

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on the social media. And that's generated a lot

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more support from the public as far as every

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job that we go to now, there's always someone

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who's... seen the trucks or seen the social media

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and they're really quick to say we didn't realise

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that you guys were so poorly paid and it's not

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really reflected by the politicians here, the

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state government. I think I'm pretty sure it

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was our minister for emergency services who basically

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sort of said, oh, you know, it just means that

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you need to go out and work on your days off

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or get a second job, which is... Pretty disheartening

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to hear, really. How many hours do you guys work

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a week? We do the 10, 14, so two 10 -hour days,

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two 14 -hour nights and four off. Our airport

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flyers have just gone over to 24 on, 24 off,

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24 on, five days off, which they're loving. But

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this is not really a practical thing for us.

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Just with bushfire through summer, we have –

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and our summers are getting – longer and hotter.

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I think our last – pretty much the bushfire season

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is now almost six months of the year, so we can

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respond sort of a few – up to a few hours out

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really and potentially be on firegrounds for

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up to sort of 18 -plus hours. So it's just not

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really a practical thing for us to do 24 -hour

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shifts. They looked at it, but it's not – it

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would be nice lifestyle -wise, but I just don't

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think it's really a practical thing to be doing.

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Is there any way of having 24 -hour shifts during

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the non -fire season than when you're actually

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deployed to bushfires, then it's broken down?

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They probably could. The other problem is that

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we're pretty understaffed at the moment. The

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last couple of years, they have pushed a heap

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more through training schools, but really since

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COVID, there hasn't been. enough staff to cover

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what we need to cover. So, yeah, I mean, they

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potentially could. They did look at one stage,

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I think, at adding an afternoon shift, so they

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would just sort of, you know, work from two.

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Because most of our bushfires, they start after

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lunch and they cross over the shift changeover.

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So, yeah, it may be something that could work,

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but I don't mind the 10 -14s. It's more if you

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get... you get hammered for the two nights or,

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you know, there is that requirement to do the

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overtime, it can wear you down a bit. What about

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the frequency of wildland fires? A lot of the

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guys have had on, you know, smokejumpers and

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hotshots that have been here. Yeah, you'd think

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of your average wildland firefighter might lean

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politically towards the right a little bit more,

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but that's not the case when it comes to this

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conversation. And not that any real issue has

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a left or a right, but when it comes to poo -pooing,

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global warming, and the environmental element,

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the wildland community seem to be pretty vocal

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about the fact that, yes, no, it is getting drier

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and hotter every single year. What's the kind

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of conversation in Australia? It's a really hard

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one. It seems every year they're saying it's

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going to be the worst fire season that we've

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had and then it goes up and down. I think it

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just seems that the summer's pushing easily into

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March, April and we're still getting decent bushfires

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then. In my 20 years, there's always been fires

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sort of starting October, November, but the last

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few years it just seems that we get busy. sooner

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in the year and it just stretches on through.

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I think our USAR task force does a fair bit more

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of the, through summer's damage assessment is

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the big one for us and our USAR is all off shift.

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So, you know, it's called in on overtime on days

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off to respond to the fires. So, yeah, by the

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end of April, May, you're sort of ready for a

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bit of a break. You mentioned about struggling

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with recruitment. Has that always been the case,

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or like here, are you seeing a declining recruitment

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in the last 10 or 15 years? Definitely. The problem

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we've got here probably more so is the resource

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boom. That's probably pretty soon after I started,

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so sort of late 2000s to 2010s. there's heaps

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more money to go and work up north in mining.

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So it dropped off. I think when I applied, it

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was the first year I applied, $3 ,500 applying

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for 36 jobs. And then when I applied, I think

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it was about $3 ,000. Same thing for, I think

00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:32.399
I applied for 45 that year. I've been involved

00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:37.159
in recruitment in some capacity for... I think

00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.000
at one stage it dropped off to about 500 or so

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applying for the same sort of thing. You know,

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they increased the size of the schools to 24,

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so say 48 -ish jobs for the year down to about

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500 applying for it. But it seems to have bounced

00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:53.740
back. The people in charge of recruitment now,

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I think, are doing a better job at what they

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do and getting more people interested in it and

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a bit of, I think, a better process as well.

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So, yeah, I think recruitment this year, say

00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:09.269
1200 people but they they did put they've been

00:13:09.269 --> 00:13:11.990
putting about 90 through per year just try and

00:13:11.990 --> 00:13:14.970
get the numbers back up and uh we're just sort

00:13:14.970 --> 00:13:16.429
of starting to see that but the problem we've

00:13:16.429 --> 00:13:20.289
got is the um trying to get a profile on a on

00:13:20.289 --> 00:13:22.169
a truck is is difficult just because we've got

00:13:22.169 --> 00:13:25.649
so many junior fires around it's interesting

00:13:25.649 --> 00:13:27.350
as you hear over here i don't know if it's the

00:13:27.350 --> 00:13:29.370
same there one of the problems of recruitment

00:13:29.370 --> 00:13:32.289
is kids today just don't want to work And if

00:13:32.289 --> 00:13:35.470
you actually look at it, you know, the Wall Street

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Journal did a piece a while ago now that I shared.

00:13:38.370 --> 00:13:40.429
A lot of the young people are going into the

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trades because if you now have access to the

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Internet, you can see Australian, British, American

00:13:46.029 --> 00:13:48.029
firefighter. You know, these are the pros. These

00:13:48.029 --> 00:13:49.750
are the cons. And if you're coming over here,

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the cons is a pretty significant list these days

00:13:52.409 --> 00:13:54.309
when you see all the even what we're going to

00:13:54.309 --> 00:13:56.830
talk about, you know, the illnesses and the mental

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health challenges that are attributed to what

00:13:58.529 --> 00:14:02.700
we do. They are also able to look at college

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and go, well, tens of thousands of dollars for

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a piece of paper doesn't guarantee me a job.

00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:08.759
I don't think I'm going to do that either. So

00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:11.059
they are going into the trades. And it's an interesting

00:14:11.059 --> 00:14:13.299
thing that you just presented. There's a lot

00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:14.879
of young Australians, obviously, that want to

00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:17.559
work. But if the mining industry is showing that

00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.240
they've got better pay and or working conditions.

00:14:20.809 --> 00:14:23.090
then it's drawing them there. So it's not that

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the young people don't want to work. It's how

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does the fire service stay competitive? And of

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course, there's an element of service, no question.

00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:34.169
But as you alluded to before, if you're not able

00:14:34.169 --> 00:14:36.450
to pay for somewhere to live, that's going to

00:14:36.450 --> 00:14:38.169
be a challenge for someone entering the fire

00:14:38.169 --> 00:14:40.350
service. So this is a conversation that we need

00:14:40.350 --> 00:14:44.649
to be having. Yeah, I mean, you could go up north

00:14:44.649 --> 00:14:48.370
and work as a cleaner and get paid 150 or 180

00:14:48.370 --> 00:14:52.659
grand a year. to go and clean dongers or drive

00:14:52.659 --> 00:14:58.259
trucks. And I think for us, when you finish at

00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:00.139
a fire school, I think they're on around $80

00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:04.360
,000 for the year. So it's a bit of a problem

00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:06.139
when you've got people that come from those jobs

00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:07.960
into, you know, you might have someone who's

00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.919
been an electrician for 10 years or 15 years

00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:12.679
and they come into this job and they have to

00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:16.350
take a massive pay cut. Yeah, no, I really push

00:15:16.350 --> 00:15:18.809
back against the whole this generation doesn't

00:15:18.809 --> 00:15:21.830
want to work. It may take a bit personally just

00:15:21.830 --> 00:15:25.309
having a 19 -year -old and a 17 -year -old who

00:15:25.309 --> 00:15:27.750
both started working as soon as they turned,

00:15:27.830 --> 00:15:30.250
the day they turned 14 pretty much, started working

00:15:30.250 --> 00:15:34.070
at Macca's or a supermarket and they've both

00:15:34.070 --> 00:15:37.830
got a really great work ethic. And I see it from

00:15:37.830 --> 00:15:42.519
their friends as well. Yeah, same from junior

00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:44.059
fighters coming into the job. I just don't really

00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:47.059
see it. And I think the people that say that

00:15:47.059 --> 00:15:50.820
are the – it goes for a few things with even

00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:55.980
female firefighter recruitment. But they – I

00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:58.120
won't mince words. It's sort of the fat old blokes

00:15:58.120 --> 00:15:59.879
that are quite happy to sit around and sit in

00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:01.940
the TV room the whole day and not do anything,

00:16:02.179 --> 00:16:04.559
you know, whinging about the state of the world.

00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:06.779
And so you're not really doing anything to change

00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:11.340
it. But you're also – Not really an example of

00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:17.460
hard work. Yeah, 100%. I couldn't agree more.

00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:19.179
It's so funny because I talk to people all over

00:16:19.179 --> 00:16:21.740
the world and it's the same issues. All these

00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:23.340
different conversations that we're having, at

00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:26.159
its core, it's the same thing. So the more voices

00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:28.899
that we have from all over the planet, the more

00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:30.779
you start debunking some of the things that are

00:16:30.779 --> 00:16:33.120
myths and getting behind some of the movements

00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.399
that do need to change that are a reality. Yeah.

00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:39.389
It's interesting. I sat on the interview panel

00:16:39.389 --> 00:16:45.769
for the recruitment last year and, again, like

00:16:45.769 --> 00:16:49.070
I said, I've got a good relationship with our

00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:54.929
recruitment team and have been involved in it

00:16:54.929 --> 00:16:56.830
and I'd like to sort of stay involved with it.

00:16:56.970 --> 00:16:59.210
But sitting on the interview panel, it's really

00:16:59.210 --> 00:17:02.129
hard. I did it last year and I was the only uniformed

00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:04.910
person on the panel. So trying to convey the

00:17:04.910 --> 00:17:09.079
HR. What I think, and again, it's my opinion,

00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.180
but what I think would make a good firefighter

00:17:11.180 --> 00:17:12.880
sometimes very different to what HR are looking

00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:19.259
for. And I don't mean quotas or diversity or

00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.720
anything like that, but we don't need salespeople.

00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.599
You get people that can sell themselves really

00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.539
well. We get a snapshot. It's a half an hour,

00:17:28.579 --> 00:17:31.440
40 -minute interview. That's all you see of the

00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.079
person. And if you get someone who's really good

00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.579
at bullshitting, they can... And a HR person

00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:39.319
goes, well, this person's amazing. And you go,

00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:41.799
yeah, but they sort of said this and this. And

00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:44.400
they're the ones that you see that come out to

00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:45.640
the station and everyone goes, how the fuck did

00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.000
this person get through recruitment? Surely someone

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.819
saw it. And he goes, well, that's probably what

00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:54.079
I like to be able to then say is that you can't

00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.799
see it. You can't always tell. The people that

00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:02.220
you rank in the top five out of the 200 that

00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:05.769
you end up interviewing. they can be duds because

00:18:05.769 --> 00:18:08.950
they can sell it really well. You don't have

00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:11.170
time to fact check. They could say that they

00:18:11.170 --> 00:18:13.250
were a personal firefighter for the Queen of

00:18:13.250 --> 00:18:15.250
England and you have to take it at face value.

00:18:15.349 --> 00:18:18.430
You can't sort of push back too hard then. I

00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:20.390
mean, you can do your checks afterwards, but

00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:23.009
really you have to take it at face value. So

00:18:23.009 --> 00:18:27.890
if you get someone, if the weight of the recruitment

00:18:27.890 --> 00:18:30.509
is on that interview, then it can be a real problem.

00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.640
Yeah, no, it's absolutely, I've never even thought

00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:35.759
about that before as far as, yeah, some people

00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.079
just have silver tongues. It is what it is, you

00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.140
know, and yeah, I think this is what usually

00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:43.680
you can see the true desire from someone, you

00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:45.200
know, when you're answering, you know, why do

00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:46.819
you want to be a firefighter? You know, and it's

00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:48.240
funny because people say, oh, don't say I want

00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:49.940
to help people, but it is why you want to be

00:18:49.940 --> 00:18:52.099
a firefighter, but elaborate, explain to me,

00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:54.559
give me stories. But yeah, I mean, we all know

00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:56.200
there are those people that just, yeah, they

00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:58.559
could sell ice to Eskimos and that's not exclusive

00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.509
to. you know, outside professions. It also applies

00:19:01.509 --> 00:19:04.109
to police and fire and EMS. And then, as you

00:19:04.109 --> 00:19:05.509
said, now they're on a rig and you're like, how

00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:07.569
the fuck did they get here in the first place?

00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:09.309
Well, they talked their way in, as you said.

00:19:10.210 --> 00:19:13.569
Yeah. Also, they went away. I sat on an interview

00:19:13.569 --> 00:19:19.410
panel in 2011 and the questions they asked were

00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:20.990
kind of, you know, what do you know about the

00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:23.410
role of the firefighter and a day in the life

00:19:23.410 --> 00:19:25.470
of a firefighter, basically, and then, you know,

00:19:25.490 --> 00:19:29.049
and why do you want to... Why do you want to

00:19:29.049 --> 00:19:31.009
do the job? They sort of went away from that.

00:19:31.089 --> 00:19:33.849
And, again, I think they really sort of went

00:19:33.849 --> 00:19:37.890
towards questions that allowed the salesman to

00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:42.970
get in. But they have gone back to it. I really

00:19:42.970 --> 00:19:44.589
like the questions that they've had the last

00:19:44.589 --> 00:19:46.190
couple of years. I really liked them. They've

00:19:46.190 --> 00:19:48.849
gone back to having a few more information nights.

00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:53.349
So amazing how many people, again, when I did

00:19:53.349 --> 00:19:55.490
it last year, didn't really know anything about

00:19:55.490 --> 00:19:58.210
the job. You sort of ask. you know, why do you

00:19:58.210 --> 00:20:00.789
want to do the job? And it was, you know, a personal

00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:02.589
trainer and one of my clients said I'd be good

00:20:02.589 --> 00:20:07.509
at it. Or, oh, yeah, I know I can work out when

00:20:07.509 --> 00:20:10.150
I'm on station. So, you know, it would suit my

00:20:10.150 --> 00:20:12.990
lifestyle to be able to do that. You know, there's

00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:14.970
a little bit more to it than that. They don't

00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:18.390
realise that the, you know, you're signing up

00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:21.930
for a job where we've got our presumptive legislation

00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:23.809
is pretty good, but the presumptive legislation

00:20:23.809 --> 00:20:29.279
says you're joining a job where. there's a fair

00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.319
chance that you'll get cancer, that you'll get

00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:35.460
PTSD, that you'll have hearing loss, that it's

00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:40.759
a carcinogenic occupation going by the World

00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:48.480
Health Organisation. The fact that we're at work

00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.019
and we clean our own toilets and do our own gardening

00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:53.700
and there's not a cleaner that comes in every

00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:55.500
day and we just sort of move our feet while we're

00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:57.920
watching TV and they come in and do it. It's

00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.799
doing that and we're living with each other sometimes

00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.160
24 -7. We're living like we're living in a share

00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:09.000
house and if you can't get along with people,

00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.640
then you're going to be a problem for everyone

00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.339
else. Yeah, there's a mentorship program here

00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:18.160
that one of my friends started, and I think it's

00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:19.960
phenomenal because it starts to give them all

00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:21.660
that. They do the training and the gear, and

00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:24.859
I believe they do ride -alongs and all those

00:21:24.859 --> 00:21:26.960
kind of things because that's exactly it. I came

00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.640
in kind of blind myself, but when I got hired

00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.900
in, when was it, two departments ago, one of

00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:38.079
my classmates was actually assigned at a station

00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:42.430
I wanted to work at, funny enough. I got a call

00:21:42.430 --> 00:21:44.349
one day saying, hey, Gearing, you can come over

00:21:44.349 --> 00:21:47.170
to 70 now. And what had happened is that he had

00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:50.029
left because he didn't realize that you had to

00:21:50.029 --> 00:21:53.170
clean toilets. Exactly what you said. So, you

00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:55.369
know, I mean, great. I got the spot and he obviously,

00:21:55.470 --> 00:21:57.369
you know, got to find out early that it wasn't

00:21:57.369 --> 00:21:59.069
a career for him. So I don't think that's a bad

00:21:59.069 --> 00:22:01.809
thing. But, you know, if you're not understanding

00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:03.250
what we really do, and this is what I've said

00:22:03.250 --> 00:22:07.069
to, you know, to about the American Fire Services,

00:22:07.069 --> 00:22:08.950
we've done a terrible job of telling people what

00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:11.759
we do. People still think that we sit around

00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:14.140
the station playing cards and petting the Dalmatian

00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:16.500
and every 12 months taking our shirts off to

00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:18.839
make a calendar and that's it. And that's absolute

00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.160
bullshit. A lot of our men and women are running

00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:24.980
24 hours straight, fire, EMS, and everything

00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:28.039
else that people have their worst day. And therefore,

00:22:28.220 --> 00:22:30.180
when it comes to trying to get public support,

00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:33.000
trying to get funding, if you've got that vision

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.160
that all you do, like you said, you have a gardener,

00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.680
you have a cleaner. They're like, well, why do

00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.339
these people need more money, more time off?

00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:41.700
They're not doing much anyway. So we've done

00:22:41.700 --> 00:22:43.440
a disservice thing as a profession of really

00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:46.799
storytelling what a shift looks like for a true

00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.140
firefighter. Yeah, we've started doing, they

00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:54.319
did it a few years ago where they call it a realistic

00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.740
job preview. And it was part of the recruitment

00:22:56.740 --> 00:23:00.359
process. It wasn't compulsory, but it kind of

00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:01.559
gave them a little bit of a tick in the box.

00:23:02.460 --> 00:23:06.559
One person speaking about kind of a day in the

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.759
life, one person speaking about all the great

00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:10.500
things in the job and then one person speaking

00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:17.619
about the negative side of it. And I had a few

00:23:17.619 --> 00:23:22.640
people, I did a bunch of them one year and had

00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:24.900
a few people after each time come up and just

00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:26.160
sort of say, you know, I don't think this is

00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.700
for me. I didn't realise that you actually go

00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:31.779
to a traffic accident. So they sort of... Just

00:23:31.779 --> 00:23:34.460
think it's all about firefighting and, yeah,

00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:37.759
like you said, calendars and working out. And

00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:43.579
when you realise that it's – there's a lot more

00:23:43.579 --> 00:23:46.480
to it than – yeah, I think it's a good way of

00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.180
probably preparing people for the process going

00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:55.160
through. The one we had was a guy – and from

00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:56.660
all reports, great guy, would have been a great

00:23:56.660 --> 00:24:00.349
fiery, but – due to religious reasons didn't

00:24:00.349 --> 00:24:05.170
work saturdays um so he got through a school

00:24:05.170 --> 00:24:08.589
and then when he got posted it was um he just

00:24:08.589 --> 00:24:11.670
said yeah no i can't work saturdays and um i

00:24:11.670 --> 00:24:13.809
thought i'd better just sort of just take saturdays

00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:18.049
off or something like that so um yeah i think

00:24:18.049 --> 00:24:20.089
the more information we can get out to people

00:24:20.089 --> 00:24:23.430
before they put their hand up for it the better

00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:26.809
yeah i agree completely All right. Well, we kind

00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:28.430
of jumped the gun a little bit, but that was

00:24:28.430 --> 00:24:30.150
an interesting rabbit hole to jump down. So thank

00:24:30.150 --> 00:24:32.250
you. So let's start at the very beginning of

00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:34.990
your timeline then. So tell me where you were

00:24:34.990 --> 00:24:36.789
born and tell me a little bit about your family

00:24:36.789 --> 00:24:39.069
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:41.769
It's weird hearing that when you're asking me

00:24:41.769 --> 00:24:48.549
it. I was born here in Perth, probably three

00:24:48.549 --> 00:24:50.650
or four kilometers from where I'm living now.

00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:58.859
I had a twin brother, so I've still got a twin

00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:05.880
brother, and a brother three years younger. We

00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:09.839
just had a very normal childhood. My parents,

00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:14.519
my dad, they both worked for the government early

00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:16.319
on. They met working for a government department.

00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:19.779
Mum was a stay -at -home mum once she had us

00:25:19.779 --> 00:25:23.009
until probably we were a... definitely in high

00:25:23.009 --> 00:25:24.410
school, probably when my younger brother started

00:25:24.410 --> 00:25:26.630
high school, she started working as a teacher's

00:25:26.630 --> 00:25:29.329
assistant and worked at the school that we had

00:25:29.329 --> 00:25:34.130
gone to until she retired a few years ago to

00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:35.829
look after my grandparents when they started

00:25:35.829 --> 00:25:38.250
sort of getting into old age and needed some

00:25:38.250 --> 00:25:44.029
help. My dad was studying to be a priest. He

00:25:44.029 --> 00:25:49.890
was a bit older than mum. He studied, I think,

00:25:50.389 --> 00:25:52.769
Probably four or five years here in Perth and

00:25:52.769 --> 00:25:56.809
then over to Rome for a few years to become a

00:25:56.809 --> 00:25:59.089
Catholic priest. I had an older brother who was

00:25:59.089 --> 00:26:01.349
a priest, a sister who was a nun and another

00:26:01.349 --> 00:26:08.930
brother who was a teaching brother. So Irish

00:26:08.930 --> 00:26:14.349
Catholic family that they all kind of gravitated

00:26:14.349 --> 00:26:18.680
towards the church. I was going to say saw the

00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:20.460
light. I don't know if it was the light. It was

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:23.920
definitely something he went all the way through.

00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:26.099
He did all his studies. But before he got ordained,

00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:30.880
he jumped ship and came back to Perth and started

00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.640
working. And that's where I met my mom. With

00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.680
your upbringing and the philosophy that was in

00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.420
the house, this is interesting because I've had

00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:41.819
this conversation recently. Here in the States,

00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:44.039
I mean, I'm sure it happens all over the world.

00:26:45.150 --> 00:26:47.470
We have a lot of people that I would argue have

00:26:47.470 --> 00:26:51.230
hijacked Christianity and said that it aligns

00:26:51.230 --> 00:26:53.289
with these values, whether it's gun control or

00:26:53.289 --> 00:26:56.329
insert whatever here. And it's actually disconnected

00:26:56.329 --> 00:26:59.490
from at least the Christianity that I was raised

00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:03.009
on, which was Jesus was compassionate and empathetic

00:27:03.009 --> 00:27:05.670
and believed in community and love and kindness.

00:27:06.970 --> 00:27:09.789
Even though your dad didn't commit fully to the

00:27:09.789 --> 00:27:12.779
cloth itself. What was his kind of philosophy

00:27:12.779 --> 00:27:15.420
on Christianity and the values that were taught

00:27:15.420 --> 00:27:20.019
to you as young men and women? They're pretty

00:27:20.019 --> 00:27:23.059
moderate with the whole thing. The church was

00:27:23.059 --> 00:27:26.460
a big part of his life the whole way through.

00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.039
They were both involved with the local church.

00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:35.259
I went till I was 17 and then when I finished

00:27:35.259 --> 00:27:37.380
school, decided it wasn't really for me. I was

00:27:37.380 --> 00:27:40.869
never really into it. For me, a big part of it

00:27:40.869 --> 00:27:48.609
was the community side of it. My parents were

00:27:48.609 --> 00:27:51.650
really social, so we had a big group of friends.

00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:54.990
I mean, they had their own friends that my mum's

00:27:54.990 --> 00:27:58.509
still friends with to this day. But once we started

00:27:58.509 --> 00:28:02.130
school, probably five or six families that we

00:28:02.130 --> 00:28:07.190
probably most weeks would go. after school to

00:28:07.190 --> 00:28:09.130
someone's house and the mums would catch up and

00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:11.589
the kids would all hang out and we'd go away

00:28:11.589 --> 00:28:15.589
a couple of times a year for holidays. So it

00:28:15.589 --> 00:28:17.730
was really communal. And I think that the church

00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:19.529
played a little role in that, but it was more,

00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:21.670
I mean, Sundays we'd all go to church and then

00:28:21.670 --> 00:28:26.150
all go to the beach for a surf. So it was, I

00:28:26.150 --> 00:28:29.509
think that the community side of it, they didn't

00:28:29.509 --> 00:28:32.789
go over the top with the moral side of it, definitely.

00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.200
I had the conversation with my partner today

00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:42.259
just because our daughters, we've got an interview

00:28:42.259 --> 00:28:44.559
with a high school tomorrow. She starts high

00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:48.180
school in a year after next. So we're going through

00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:52.019
the interviews and she's at a public school now,

00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:54.500
but we are looking at Catholic schools for high

00:28:54.500 --> 00:28:57.559
school and just sort of talk about what... If

00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:00.700
they ask what our view is on the Catholic Church

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:07.740
and religion, I think we live culturally Catholic.

00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:12.059
We're not Catholic. We're both kind of non -believers

00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:18.680
in that. But I think it's a Jordan Peterson quote.

00:29:22.029 --> 00:29:24.349
You don't have to believe in God but you can

00:29:24.349 --> 00:29:27.569
live like you do and I think that's the way I

00:29:27.569 --> 00:29:30.289
like to do it. You don't have to believe there's

00:29:30.289 --> 00:29:31.450
someone watching over your shoulder the whole

00:29:31.450 --> 00:29:34.269
time but you can still live like you do and have

00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:37.789
that sort of moral code, I think, where you're

00:29:37.789 --> 00:29:40.349
just a good person and, like you said, compassionate

00:29:40.349 --> 00:29:45.049
and caring and that's definitely how my parents

00:29:45.049 --> 00:29:48.910
were growing up. It's interesting hearing all

00:29:48.910 --> 00:29:50.470
these different perspectives, all these different

00:29:50.470 --> 00:29:53.150
faiths. I've said this on here a few times. I

00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:56.190
do believe in a God, something bigger than us

00:29:56.190 --> 00:29:57.869
and something that we're all connected to. And

00:29:57.869 --> 00:30:01.230
I see God in nature. That's kind of my church.

00:30:01.490 --> 00:30:04.890
But wherever on the planet you found your lineage

00:30:04.890 --> 00:30:09.589
growing up in, there's some sort of book, religion,

00:30:09.970 --> 00:30:14.230
ancient wisdom that seems to be telling the same

00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:17.609
thing. Like, don't be a dick, basically. And,

00:30:17.609 --> 00:30:20.630
you know, if you look at evolution, even if you

00:30:20.630 --> 00:30:22.430
want to lean into the science side now, I would

00:30:22.430 --> 00:30:25.329
argue the evolution of man is kindness, compassion

00:30:25.329 --> 00:30:27.849
and empathy, because we were very brutal a long

00:30:27.849 --> 00:30:29.990
time ago. And I feel like we've got better and

00:30:29.990 --> 00:30:32.089
better and better, even though at the moment

00:30:32.089 --> 00:30:34.369
we're turning our heads to some atrocities that

00:30:34.369 --> 00:30:37.029
we need to be standing up against. But I think

00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:39.490
overall, these the Bible and the Koran and the

00:30:39.490 --> 00:30:41.390
Torah and, you know, Ida Ching and all these

00:30:41.390 --> 00:30:44.329
other. you know, manuals of wisdom that have

00:30:44.329 --> 00:30:46.089
been passed on have been saying the same kind

00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:48.269
of things. Don't kill each other, you know, come

00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:50.910
together, you know, be kind. And I think even

00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:53.109
in the body, there's an intrinsic reward system

00:30:53.109 --> 00:30:55.029
that when you're a good person, it feels good

00:30:55.029 --> 00:30:57.309
as well. That's a, that's a biological thing.

00:30:57.390 --> 00:30:59.609
And when you're an asshole, you know, when you

00:30:59.609 --> 00:31:01.450
look in the mirror that you're an asshole, you

00:31:01.450 --> 00:31:05.450
do deep down. So whatever, you know, uh, doctrine

00:31:05.450 --> 00:31:08.150
people lean into, you know, I think there is

00:31:08.150 --> 00:31:11.490
a unified kind of feeling of wherever you are

00:31:11.490 --> 00:31:13.789
on the planet, just as you said, we all know

00:31:13.789 --> 00:31:16.890
really deep down what a good person is, and you

00:31:16.890 --> 00:31:20.410
just try and be that. Yeah, and I think, not

00:31:20.410 --> 00:31:24.049
to jump forward into psychedelic stuff too early,

00:31:24.109 --> 00:31:30.849
but from having some experiences both with mushrooms

00:31:30.849 --> 00:31:40.110
and then with the MDMA, my thinking is that If

00:31:40.110 --> 00:31:41.809
you do the right thing, you do the wrong thing,

00:31:41.930 --> 00:31:44.549
your body remembers it. It's in there stored

00:31:44.549 --> 00:31:47.910
somewhere. And when you're on your way out, let's

00:31:47.910 --> 00:31:49.789
say your life flashes before your eyes, I think

00:31:49.789 --> 00:31:52.210
what flashes before your eyes is, you know, all

00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:53.890
the good things, all the bad things. And if it's

00:31:53.890 --> 00:31:56.369
overwhelmingly bad, then that's kind of like

00:31:56.369 --> 00:31:58.690
a hell for you. You get to, you know, watch your

00:31:58.690 --> 00:32:01.769
greatest hits kind of thing. And same thing if...

00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:04.319
if you've had a good life and you've done right

00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.859
by people the whole way through, as you're, you

00:32:06.859 --> 00:32:09.099
know, making that transition into death, then

00:32:09.099 --> 00:32:11.960
that's what you see. And I think that's, you

00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:15.220
know, if that's happening for you, it makes you

00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:17.579
feel good, you know, in that moment as well.

00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.619
And I think that's kind of what I see heaven

00:32:19.619 --> 00:32:24.299
and hell as. But I think I went right off just

00:32:24.299 --> 00:32:27.680
being more probably scientific and pragmatic.

00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:30.990
I went right away from... religion for a long

00:32:30.990 --> 00:32:32.569
time probably to the point where we're almost

00:32:32.569 --> 00:32:35.450
being anti -theist where you know just didn't

00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:40.990
really see the point in any of it and um it just

00:32:40.990 --> 00:32:43.910
from from reading a bit more listen to podcasts

00:32:43.910 --> 00:32:49.740
i listened to it uh it was uh again I used to

00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:52.420
love Jordan Peterson. I think he's kind of lost

00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:55.299
the plot a little bit, but he did a psychological

00:32:55.299 --> 00:32:58.220
interpretation of the Old Testament that was

00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:01.359
amazing. It was just he's sort of basically sort

00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.039
of saying, you know, this is what they've said

00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:04.500
and this is kind of what it could mean from a

00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:07.180
psychological point of view. And then after listening

00:33:07.180 --> 00:33:09.400
to that, my two older kids were at a Catholic

00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:12.500
primary school. I used to actually quite like

00:33:12.500 --> 00:33:14.759
going when they had to go to a mass, go to mass

00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:16.500
and listen to the readings and listen to the

00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:19.519
sermon and take. the meaning out of it or take

00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.079
what's underneath it and and for me it was i

00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.799
actually really liked it because i go like they're

00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:27.319
talking in metaphor a lot of the time so if you

00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:29.160
you take you know what they actually mean out

00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.480
of that um they're actually telling some really

00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:33.859
good stories and you can sort of see you know

00:33:33.859 --> 00:33:37.940
how beneficial that is in in people's lives i

00:33:37.940 --> 00:33:41.059
also think and again i'm generalizing extremely

00:33:41.059 --> 00:33:44.140
broadly but i almost feel like the old testament

00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:47.230
is like hey here's how we used to do it And then

00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:49.309
you have, you know, the New Testament is like,

00:33:49.329 --> 00:33:52.109
well, here's how we change now, you know, forgiveness,

00:33:52.430 --> 00:33:54.509
compassion, et cetera, et cetera, rather than

00:33:54.509 --> 00:33:57.230
an eye for an eye and cutting babies in half.

00:33:57.930 --> 00:34:00.950
And so I think this is an interesting thing,

00:34:00.990 --> 00:34:03.109
too. I really feel like those two books have

00:34:03.109 --> 00:34:05.789
been separated because it's like a growth again.

00:34:05.869 --> 00:34:09.190
It's, you know, a progression of human psyche

00:34:09.190 --> 00:34:14.269
away from that kind of. primeval man and the

00:34:14.269 --> 00:34:17.429
brutality that we were to trying to move us towards

00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:20.949
that forging of community so as you said i think

00:34:20.949 --> 00:34:23.050
there are a lot of metaphors in there and i don't

00:34:23.050 --> 00:34:25.349
think the old testament is like how to live your

00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:27.389
life it's like hey this is how it used to be

00:34:27.389 --> 00:34:30.010
done let's try and not do that anymore because

00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:33.289
it didn't work yeah there's also there's just

00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:35.090
a fair bit in there where you strip it back and

00:34:35.090 --> 00:34:39.440
um yeah And I for an I doesn't literally have

00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.699
to mean, you know, someone does wrong by you,

00:34:41.739 --> 00:34:44.960
you do wrong by them. It's what you take out

00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.539
of it. And you can always have a probably more

00:34:47.539 --> 00:34:52.239
generous, put a positive slant on it to make

00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:54.880
it less of a control thing and more of, you know,

00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:59.980
this is a good way to live your life and sort

00:34:59.980 --> 00:35:04.739
of use that as a compass. Absolutely. All right,

00:35:04.780 --> 00:35:06.800
well, let's go back to your high school. What

00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.780
were you playing and doing as far as sports and

00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:13.099
exercise? I think I tried every sport available

00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:18.500
and I sucked at everything. I probably wasn't

00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:25.300
very coordinated and I was so small and probably

00:35:25.300 --> 00:35:26.880
more learned towards the academic side of it.

00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:30.219
But I went to a little Catholic primary school.

00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:33.610
Soccer was the... was the main game so i played

00:35:33.610 --> 00:35:35.949
soccer all the way through primary school i think

00:35:35.949 --> 00:35:38.190
we started playing it was probably sort of first

00:35:38.190 --> 00:35:43.190
grade all the way through um but yeah i enjoyed

00:35:43.190 --> 00:35:45.010
it but i was never very good at it and played

00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:47.349
i played basketball i sort of played that all

00:35:47.349 --> 00:35:48.989
the way through primary school to high school

00:35:48.989 --> 00:35:53.650
and then um but i started working at a supermarket

00:35:53.650 --> 00:35:58.070
in year year 11. You could only really work on

00:35:58.070 --> 00:36:00.710
Saturdays and Saturdays was the day the basketball

00:36:00.710 --> 00:36:06.969
was on, so I stopped playing then. School -wise,

00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:10.030
I tried hockey, I tried footy, I tried zeroes

00:36:10.030 --> 00:36:14.610
footy, that is. I played something every term,

00:36:14.730 --> 00:36:21.269
but I wasn't really very good at any of it. When

00:36:21.269 --> 00:36:22.670
you say hockey, are you talking about field hockey?

00:36:23.170 --> 00:36:25.219
Field hockey, yeah. Yeah, it's funny because

00:36:25.219 --> 00:36:29.219
I played that. I played it in high school and

00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:30.699
then in college. I played for the college too.

00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.239
And in England, if you talk about hockey, it's

00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.760
like it's a girl's sport. But when you play men's

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.500
hockey, you're running around. There's no pads

00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:42.280
whatsoever. You're holding a big stick. I think

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:44.699
it's an underappreciated sport as far as how

00:36:44.699 --> 00:36:48.039
rough it is, actually. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I

00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:52.369
mean, I've always enjoyed team sports. I could

00:36:52.369 --> 00:36:57.670
never make it into the footy team. I think I

00:36:57.670 --> 00:37:00.570
got to be the goal umpire a few times and that

00:37:00.570 --> 00:37:03.969
was probably the limit. Even when I went to the

00:37:03.969 --> 00:37:10.769
army, I was the goal umpire. I was a late bloomer.

00:37:12.630 --> 00:37:15.849
When I went to the army straight from school,

00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:22.309
I was under 55 kilos, ringing wet. I probably

00:37:22.309 --> 00:37:26.429
went through puberty at 17, so it took a little

00:37:26.429 --> 00:37:29.190
while. They started a rugby team when I was in

00:37:29.190 --> 00:37:32.349
year 12, so I played rugby union, which was good,

00:37:32.449 --> 00:37:38.130
but again, I just got smashed. I've always enjoyed

00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:39.909
sport, but I didn't really start playing. I started

00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:43.050
playing Aussie rules footy when I was about 22,

00:37:44.030 --> 00:37:48.150
I think. I played that until I got a bit too

00:37:48.150 --> 00:37:51.659
busy with kids. Then went back and played Masters

00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:56.159
for a few years. So, yeah, I enjoyed playing

00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.440
as a rules footy, but you sort of get to that

00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.980
age where your brain likes playing it, but your

00:38:02.980 --> 00:38:04.679
body doesn't really like playing it that much.

00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:06.679
Yeah, well, maybe the other way around, actually,

00:38:06.699 --> 00:38:08.099
with contact sports, your brain just doesn't

00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:12.099
realise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, then...

00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:14.900
You mentioned the army. So as you were progressing

00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:17.519
through the school ages, what are you dreaming

00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:19.639
of becoming? Is it the military or is there something

00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:22.719
else prior to that? No, it wasn't really the

00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:28.860
military at all. My dad had a psych degree and

00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:34.800
I was science minded, did all the science subjects

00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:39.500
in year 12 and was aiming towards going to uni

00:38:39.500 --> 00:38:44.900
and doing psychology. But I wasn't 100 % really

00:38:44.900 --> 00:38:47.980
sure what I wanted to do. I had a bit of a leaning

00:38:47.980 --> 00:38:51.739
towards police. But here you can't start with

00:38:51.739 --> 00:38:54.219
police until you're 19. So everyone I spoke to

00:38:54.219 --> 00:38:56.820
sort of recommended going to uni first and then

00:38:56.820 --> 00:39:01.719
progress over to police after that. But I can

00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:04.860
remember one morning sort of coming out, Dad

00:39:04.860 --> 00:39:07.199
was reading the paper and he showed me an ad

00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:10.780
for... a new program that they had with the Army

00:39:10.780 --> 00:39:13.900
where you could do a year full -time and four

00:39:13.900 --> 00:39:16.500
years part -time and they paid for you to go

00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:21.480
to uni during that time. And I still remember

00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:23.659
the ad, it said you can earn $19 ,000 a year.

00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:25.639
And I was like, oh, shit, yeah, sign me up. I

00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:32.480
could do with 19 grand. So, yeah, it was sort

00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:33.739
of the best of both worlds because it wasn't

00:39:33.739 --> 00:39:38.059
a huge. Huge commitment. I didn't turn 17 until

00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:42.059
November, so it was just a good way to get out

00:39:42.059 --> 00:39:43.920
and see the world a little bit or definitely

00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:49.559
see Australia. So, yeah, I turned 17 in November,

00:39:49.739 --> 00:39:55.219
a few weeks overseas, Singapore and Thailand,

00:39:55.300 --> 00:39:59.000
just having a bit of a look around and then shipped

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:04.369
off to basic training. over in new south wales

00:40:04.369 --> 00:40:08.309
and what did you start studying as far as university

00:40:08.309 --> 00:40:11.670
when you went through that program uh i did a

00:40:11.670 --> 00:40:16.730
bachelor of science so um yeah i did my my year

00:40:16.730 --> 00:40:21.269
full time and then um yeah australian's union

00:40:21.269 --> 00:40:24.010
i hated it i spent more time at the beach than

00:40:24.010 --> 00:40:28.610
i did at uni um probably dad's advice that peas

00:40:28.610 --> 00:40:31.539
get degrees It wasn't the best advice because

00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:34.599
I think I averaged about 52 in my first year.

00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:40.920
I just hated it. I think going from sort of the

00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:49.059
structured, I guess, the army life to a uni life,

00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:55.019
I didn't really transition too well. Couldn't

00:40:55.019 --> 00:40:59.980
really see the point of a lot of things. used

00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:01.659
to start broad with science and then go into

00:41:01.659 --> 00:41:04.199
psychology i really hated first year psychology

00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:08.920
and i quite liked uh we had it was called human

00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:13.219
movement which ended up becoming um uh kinesiology

00:41:13.219 --> 00:41:15.599
or sports science keeps changing its name but

00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:17.739
human movement there was sports involved with

00:41:17.739 --> 00:41:21.500
all of it and a lot of um because it sort of

00:41:21.500 --> 00:41:23.659
leads on to phys ed teaching there was lots of

00:41:23.659 --> 00:41:27.360
chicks as well so it was sort of more more following

00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:29.840
that that path than anything else it was uh it

00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:32.940
was a good fun course um but when i got into

00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:34.780
second year it gets a little bit more into the

00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:37.519
physiology side of it i really enjoyed that um

00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:40.699
and the anatomy as well we did did gross anatomy

00:41:40.699 --> 00:41:45.320
every year so um yeah i end up quite enjoying

00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:49.369
the human movement side of it and that's that

00:41:49.369 --> 00:41:52.309
was what my my major was in human human movement

00:41:52.309 --> 00:41:57.409
human biology um but yeah you kind of end up

00:41:57.409 --> 00:41:59.730
at the end of a three -year science degree with

00:41:59.730 --> 00:42:02.750
enough to go and work in a gym and be a glorified

00:42:02.750 --> 00:42:06.889
personal trainer yeah it's funny how our lives

00:42:06.889 --> 00:42:08.829
are parallel i was a late bloomer i didn't have

00:42:08.829 --> 00:42:10.909
my growth spurts when i was 18 so i totally understand

00:42:10.909 --> 00:42:13.489
what it's like being surrounded by adults and

00:42:13.489 --> 00:42:15.989
still looking like a child and then i did the

00:42:15.989 --> 00:42:18.789
sports science thing too Talk to me about the

00:42:18.789 --> 00:42:23.070
deployment to East Timor. So with the Ready Reserve

00:42:23.070 --> 00:42:29.210
Scheme, it was supposed to be a bit of an intermediate,

00:42:29.329 --> 00:42:33.230
I guess, between regular army and reserve army.

00:42:33.369 --> 00:42:37.789
So we went and did 35 days. At summer holidays,

00:42:37.869 --> 00:42:39.789
we went and did a 35 -day exercise every year.

00:42:40.190 --> 00:42:44.150
And then each uni break, there was a two -week

00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:45.769
exercise that you could go and do. So as long

00:42:45.769 --> 00:42:49.889
as you did. 50 days a year you maintain your

00:42:49.889 --> 00:42:53.690
currency and sort of got bonuses and stayed in

00:42:53.690 --> 00:42:55.989
that scheme. So we would go over east and do

00:42:55.989 --> 00:42:57.630
our training for a couple of years and then they

00:42:57.630 --> 00:43:00.489
canned the scheme and transferred us to a reserve

00:43:00.489 --> 00:43:05.210
unit in Perth that had a regular army company

00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:10.289
as well. So I sort of kept that up. I didn't

00:43:10.289 --> 00:43:12.960
want to. We stopped going over east for the training

00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.340
and were working more with the General Reserve.

00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:18.920
I kind of lost interest a little bit with it.

00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:24.800
But after my three -year degree, I took a year

00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:29.119
where I was going to go travelling and did just

00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:32.900
enough time army -wise to stay on the books.

00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:36.039
And then I went to Europe for four months, came

00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:40.719
back and... I'd got into an honours program for

00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:46.079
the following year to do exercise rehab and was

00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.260
working at a friend's family business in a hardware

00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:51.840
store and got a phone call from the army just

00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:56.780
asking if I wanted to basically sort of sign

00:43:56.780 --> 00:44:01.039
up for 12 to 18 months to go to Timor for six

00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:06.320
months. Difficult conversation with the girlfriend

00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.780
at the time, but, yeah, there was kind of no

00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:16.739
way I wasn't going to say yes to that. So, yeah,

00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:19.099
I said we did a couple of weeks of training here

00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:21.980
and then we moved over to – we deployed over

00:44:21.980 --> 00:44:25.780
to Brisbane for some lead -up training. I think

00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:32.449
Timor kicked off in September 99 and – We were

00:44:32.449 --> 00:44:35.889
over in Brisbane by October and we deployed to

00:44:35.889 --> 00:44:43.570
Timor in April of 2000. I know Timor is an Australian

00:44:43.570 --> 00:44:46.550
military member. Obviously, it's one of the conflicts

00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:49.849
that a lot of people did go to. Talk to me about

00:44:49.849 --> 00:44:52.710
the backstory of that conflict in the first place

00:44:52.710 --> 00:44:54.550
and then what did you see with your own eyes?

00:44:56.670 --> 00:44:59.309
The reason we got involved with it was the...

00:45:00.230 --> 00:45:03.869
The Portuguese had been there for some time.

00:45:03.969 --> 00:45:10.130
They gave independence to Timor. I think when

00:45:10.130 --> 00:45:15.010
they left, the Indonesians took over. And when

00:45:15.010 --> 00:45:19.590
the decision was made to give East Timor independence,

00:45:19.829 --> 00:45:23.929
when the Indonesians were told to leave, they

00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:32.449
just ran roughshod through. and kind of just

00:45:32.449 --> 00:45:34.829
atrocities all the way through on the way out.

00:45:35.030 --> 00:45:41.829
And so Australia, a bunch of countries got involved

00:45:41.829 --> 00:45:45.789
with it to go and, I guess, get the Indos out

00:45:45.789 --> 00:45:52.630
and to help the East Timorese people. So it was

00:45:52.630 --> 00:45:55.809
just kind of the first proper conflict or proper

00:45:55.809 --> 00:46:00.780
war -like. that Australia had been involved with

00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:05.900
for a long time. So a lot of learning from the

00:46:05.900 --> 00:46:08.000
training that we'd done wasn't really that, you

00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.280
know, we were all based on the Vietnam sort of

00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:13.159
era training and so it was all quite different.

00:46:14.179 --> 00:46:18.579
But when the border of East and West Timor, so

00:46:18.579 --> 00:46:21.539
West Timor was Indonesia, basically East Timor

00:46:21.539 --> 00:46:24.519
was independent. The border was a series of rivers.

00:46:24.539 --> 00:46:29.309
So through the wet season. Rivers fill up, the

00:46:29.309 --> 00:46:33.210
border becomes uncrossable and everything had

00:46:33.210 --> 00:46:35.869
sort of simmered down to a degree. So by the

00:46:35.869 --> 00:46:39.630
time we got over there in April, there hadn't

00:46:39.630 --> 00:46:41.909
really been anything happening for a bit of time.

00:46:42.050 --> 00:46:45.929
So I remember the first patrol we went on, which

00:46:45.929 --> 00:46:49.809
happened to be on Anzac Day, I was a lead scout

00:46:49.809 --> 00:46:55.030
in my platoon. So your weapons, you've got...

00:46:56.509 --> 00:46:58.949
the states that they can be in is they're loaded,

00:46:59.030 --> 00:47:00.530
which means it's got a magazine in it. They're

00:47:00.530 --> 00:47:02.750
at action, which means it's cocked, and then

00:47:02.750 --> 00:47:05.150
instant means the safety's off. And we were patrolling

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:07.849
around at load, and then the lead scouts could

00:47:07.849 --> 00:47:10.809
be on action, which means that your weapon was

00:47:10.809 --> 00:47:12.829
cocked, but you're kind of not really ready to

00:47:12.829 --> 00:47:16.050
do anything with it. Within about a week or two,

00:47:16.150 --> 00:47:20.670
there started to be a few contacts with, they

00:47:20.670 --> 00:47:25.079
were calling them militia, but they... There

00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:26.980
was sort of no uncertainty around the fact that

00:47:26.980 --> 00:47:30.280
they were Indonesian army that were coming over

00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:34.900
and still trying to create havoc around the border

00:47:34.900 --> 00:47:37.679
regions there. So it escalated pretty quickly

00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:42.820
to the point where we were able to patrol around

00:47:42.820 --> 00:47:47.079
it at instant on the front of the groups. And

00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:55.079
we were there for six months and we were... I

00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:58.639
think there were four 12 -week rotations just

00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:02.780
in different parts of the border. But, yeah,

00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:07.659
it's pretty – I enjoyed it. It was just when

00:48:07.659 --> 00:48:10.280
things started to go to heat up a little bit,

00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:15.280
it was – you're just in a state of constant threat

00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:18.820
the whole time, which probably by the end of

00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:23.460
it I'd had enough. I've asked this to many people

00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.659
that have been deployed to combat, and obviously

00:48:25.659 --> 00:48:28.360
the op tempo might be different depending on

00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.599
who I'm talking to. But regardless of the politics,

00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.800
was there a moment where you got over there where

00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:37.780
you realized there were some horrific people

00:48:37.780 --> 00:48:41.039
that needed to be taken care of? Yeah, for us

00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:43.219
it was a bit different because it's not like

00:48:43.219 --> 00:48:47.139
we're – it was people coming – groups coming

00:48:47.139 --> 00:48:51.030
over the border. They would – do something and

00:48:51.030 --> 00:48:53.369
then head back over. So it's probably a little

00:48:53.369 --> 00:48:55.190
bit different in that we were there as part of

00:48:55.190 --> 00:49:01.010
a UN peace enforcing mission. So the whole thing

00:49:01.010 --> 00:49:04.570
was dealing with atrocities. It's not like we're

00:49:04.570 --> 00:49:06.050
not dealing with a normal population and there's

00:49:06.050 --> 00:49:07.849
some good ones and some bad ones. Everyone that

00:49:07.849 --> 00:49:10.130
we were dealing with was under threat from these

00:49:10.130 --> 00:49:14.590
people coming across the border. So it was very

00:49:14.590 --> 00:49:20.199
much kind of a humanitarian thing. You wouldn't

00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:21.840
walk into a village and have to go, I wonder

00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.719
if this person is on our team or on the other

00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:29.519
team. They're all on our team. So, yeah, we did

00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:34.539
some pretty long patrols as far as a couple of

00:49:34.539 --> 00:49:36.820
weeks bush at a time. Every village that you

00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:38.920
walked through, they were coming out with coconuts

00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:42.059
and water and they couldn't have been any happier

00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:48.079
to have us there. So, yeah, it was... And that

00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:51.699
part of it was a great thing to be part of. You'd

00:49:51.699 --> 00:49:54.079
have a trail of kids running behind you every

00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:55.440
time you came through a village. And we always

00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:57.559
took a bunch of extra lollies and things to hand

00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:01.579
out to them. It was cool. So fundamentally, was

00:50:01.579 --> 00:50:04.880
the intent in Indonesia take over the whole of

00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:06.559
Timor then? Is that what they were trying to

00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:10.059
do ultimately? It was more just when they didn't

00:50:10.059 --> 00:50:13.119
want to leave. They got kicked out. So when they

00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.239
left, they just demolished everything. I think

00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:17.659
they took every... I think it was almost literally

00:50:17.659 --> 00:50:20.860
every piece of corrugated iron. So they just,

00:50:21.019 --> 00:50:25.519
you know, burnt places down, destroyed homes

00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:34.579
and terrorised the locals on the way out. The

00:50:34.579 --> 00:50:37.380
intent afterwards was more just to kind of destabilise,

00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:40.699
I think. I don't know if it was officially sanctioned,

00:50:40.699 --> 00:50:44.460
the guys coming over, but, yeah, it may have

00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:48.159
just been groups of... Indonesian army guys coming

00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:52.820
over and, yeah, like I said, unsanctioned just

00:50:52.820 --> 00:50:56.400
coming over to create a bit of havoc. Yeah. I

00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:58.719
mean, it's so sad. The last book I just wrote,

00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.820
there's an element of that that the Germans did

00:51:00.820 --> 00:51:03.559
in that story. I mean, you see this, the My Lai

00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:06.139
massacre by the Americans in Vietnam. I mean,

00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:09.480
you get these horrendous people that they're

00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:12.239
not under the control of whatever military group

00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.460
it is. They just start going off on their own.

00:51:14.539 --> 00:51:16.860
And I mean, there's nothing to be gained by doing

00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:19.960
exactly what you said on the retreat. So it makes

00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:23.670
no sense and it's disgusting. Yeah. Yeah, I think

00:51:23.670 --> 00:51:25.289
that was definitely the case. Let us know from

00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:31.550
the contacts that we did have over there. I was

00:51:31.550 --> 00:51:33.349
always pretty lucky over there. I don't want

00:51:33.349 --> 00:51:36.710
to overplay it. We'd be in a platoon of 30 that

00:51:36.710 --> 00:51:39.210
would get split up. You have three sections of

00:51:39.210 --> 00:51:41.630
10 in there. So if you're out on a section patrol,

00:51:41.909 --> 00:51:43.889
it just sort of seemed to be the other sections

00:51:43.889 --> 00:51:47.389
that would get into a firefight or get into contact

00:51:47.389 --> 00:51:49.230
or that we'd split in half and the other half

00:51:49.230 --> 00:51:55.030
would get some action. At one time they just

00:51:55.030 --> 00:51:58.630
kind of got lucky where they pulled out, you're

00:51:58.630 --> 00:52:01.210
walking along a river or a creek line, pulled

00:52:01.210 --> 00:52:03.090
over for lunch and then happened to see a couple

00:52:03.090 --> 00:52:08.590
of guys coming down the river and they contacted

00:52:08.590 --> 00:52:13.050
them and ended up killing the two guys. At the

00:52:13.050 --> 00:52:16.349
time they were being treated as militia but once

00:52:16.349 --> 00:52:20.309
they got into contact, the way that they were

00:52:20.309 --> 00:52:23.130
operating was very much that they were... well

00:52:23.130 --> 00:52:25.369
trained and and knew what they were doing and

00:52:25.369 --> 00:52:30.530
then um i think it was the there was a a new

00:52:30.530 --> 00:52:35.030
zealand um infantry soldier who was killed but

00:52:35.030 --> 00:52:37.630
the when they counter -attacked the the guys

00:52:37.630 --> 00:52:39.510
dropped a heap of their gear and it was all military

00:52:39.510 --> 00:52:41.909
gear that was all you know they were squared

00:52:41.909 --> 00:52:44.090
away in a way that that wasn't just a bunch of

00:52:44.090 --> 00:52:46.369
farmers coming over or people coming over to

00:52:46.369 --> 00:52:48.389
you know to steal things or anything like that

00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:52.670
So how did that ultimately lead you into testing

00:52:52.670 --> 00:52:58.690
for the fire service? So when I got finished

00:52:58.690 --> 00:53:06.130
with the army, I still had my place to do my

00:53:06.130 --> 00:53:11.869
honors. So I did honors in exercise rehab. And

00:53:11.869 --> 00:53:19.289
so that was 2001. I was pretty lucky in that

00:53:19.289 --> 00:53:21.989
I got a job while I was studying. I got a job

00:53:21.989 --> 00:53:25.190
in exercise rehab in what I ended up working

00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:29.869
in for several years, which was workers' comp.

00:53:31.409 --> 00:53:33.909
So exercise rehab for workers' comp claims. So

00:53:33.909 --> 00:53:38.650
I started working that pretty early in my honours

00:53:38.650 --> 00:53:41.489
year and I knew that I didn't love it. Like it

00:53:41.489 --> 00:53:43.789
was a good job as far as the exercise rehab went.

00:53:43.889 --> 00:53:46.269
It was probably better paid, better conditions.

00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:52.179
heaps of work around but um i didn't love it

00:53:52.179 --> 00:53:55.880
i still i guess i enjoy i didn't love the army

00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:58.059
army was never going to be a career but i there

00:53:58.059 --> 00:54:01.440
was something about the um working a team working

00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:05.380
not sitting in an office all day um and working

00:54:05.380 --> 00:54:07.039
with something that's a little bit different

00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:12.900
and exciting that i um i was missing and i knew

00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:16.139
that that kind of wouldn't work from from staying

00:54:16.139 --> 00:54:18.219
in an exercise rehab or something like that.

00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:23.199
So I still had police as an ambition early on,

00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:26.219
but I think when I finished my first year at

00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:29.099
uni, I hated it. I was looking at police. I spoke

00:54:29.099 --> 00:54:31.800
to one of the dads at the school my mum was working

00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.480
at who was in the TRG, the special ops police

00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:37.039
here, who said, no, no, go and finish your degree

00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:39.239
and then look at police. And then in the meantime,

00:54:39.380 --> 00:54:45.179
my twin brother joined WA police. I didn't want

00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:48.440
to do the same thing as him. That was enough

00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:50.760
for me to go, no, no, I'll probably need something

00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:54.739
different. Through my honours year, I then applied

00:54:54.739 --> 00:54:59.900
for a bunch of different jobs, federal police

00:54:59.900 --> 00:55:08.199
as a sky marshal, what else, customs. When I

00:55:08.199 --> 00:55:10.239
heard you on a podcast, I sort of mentioned that

00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:13.199
you'd mentioned. drugs in a in an interview and

00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:16.239
that was what sunk me in in a job for customs

00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:19.440
where that uh it was a full day of psychometric

00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:23.059
testing and i um had ticked a few of the boxes

00:55:23.059 --> 00:55:26.139
honestly and a few probably not quite as honest

00:55:26.139 --> 00:55:29.099
and when they are sitting across from them in

00:55:29.099 --> 00:55:30.539
an interview and they sort of said oh you know

00:55:30.539 --> 00:55:33.639
they waited till the end of the interview and

00:55:33.639 --> 00:55:34.920
then they said oh yeah we just got a couple of

00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:36.880
questions about your testing you said that yeah

00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:41.829
you had used but you hadn't used any other drugs

00:55:41.829 --> 00:55:44.530
in one part of the test and then there's another

00:55:44.530 --> 00:55:46.230
part where you said you have used other recreational

00:55:46.230 --> 00:55:49.929
drugs and my wheels spun for a little bit and

00:55:49.929 --> 00:55:52.650
I tried to come up with a decent, you know, when

00:55:52.650 --> 00:55:54.670
I was at uni I tried a few of these things but,

00:55:54.670 --> 00:55:57.130
you know, it was only once or twice but that

00:55:57.130 --> 00:55:59.650
was enough to rule that out. But I was working

00:55:59.650 --> 00:56:03.110
for, sorry, part of my prac for uni, the guy

00:56:03.110 --> 00:56:07.809
who was running the lab at uni was... the guy

00:56:07.809 --> 00:56:09.449
who did all the physical testing for the fire

00:56:09.449 --> 00:56:11.769
brigade at that time he run the functional testing

00:56:11.769 --> 00:56:17.610
and um he suggested that i look at fire brigade

00:56:17.610 --> 00:56:20.949
um and it's sort of in the back of my mind but

00:56:20.949 --> 00:56:24.530
they did one recruitment every year and then

00:56:24.530 --> 00:56:27.829
9 11 happened and it might sound a little bit

00:56:27.829 --> 00:56:31.670
cliched but i can remember i was doing some night

00:56:31.670 --> 00:56:35.389
film while i was at uni coming home and The TV

00:56:35.389 --> 00:56:37.610
was on and it was all happening and just standing

00:56:37.610 --> 00:56:41.510
there. I stood there probably two or three hours

00:56:41.510 --> 00:56:45.610
in the same place just sort of watching as they

00:56:45.610 --> 00:56:51.309
burnt and then collapsed and that was probably

00:56:51.309 --> 00:56:53.889
cemented in my mind that fire brigade was probably

00:56:53.889 --> 00:56:58.869
something that I want to look at a bit closer

00:56:58.869 --> 00:57:02.219
and potentially sort of step into that. I had

00:57:02.219 --> 00:57:06.639
a mate from the army who had just got into fire

00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:12.179
brigade. So I spoke to him and I guess probably

00:57:12.179 --> 00:57:13.840
then made my mind up that that's what I was going

00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:17.679
to do. What was the on -ramp experience like

00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:20.800
for you as far as physical fitness training and

00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:25.559
then also the mental health conversation? Mental

00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:29.929
health conversation was non -existent. I think

00:57:29.929 --> 00:57:33.329
as I was 25, I think when I started applying,

00:57:33.510 --> 00:57:35.929
it just wasn't really a factor at all in any

00:57:35.929 --> 00:57:40.230
of it. The physical side of it, I was working

00:57:40.230 --> 00:57:44.170
in gyms and I'd worked in gyms since I finished

00:57:44.170 --> 00:57:47.230
my undergrad degree. I started doing some personal

00:57:47.230 --> 00:57:49.510
training and working in gyms. So I was pretty

00:57:49.510 --> 00:57:53.710
fit. The only problem I had was the... I had

00:57:53.710 --> 00:57:55.809
reasonably high blood pressure. I think the job

00:57:55.809 --> 00:57:57.889
that I was doing was pretty stressful. It was

00:57:57.889 --> 00:58:03.550
60 or 70 hours a week of long hours. And, yeah,

00:58:03.690 --> 00:58:06.309
amazingly, as soon as I started in the training

00:58:06.309 --> 00:58:08.489
school, my blood pressure went down to perfect.

00:58:08.650 --> 00:58:12.349
So it was obvious that that was the reason for

00:58:12.349 --> 00:58:16.119
that. They did one recruitment a year and, like

00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:18.219
I said, there was several thousand applying for

00:58:18.219 --> 00:58:22.820
30, 40 jobs a year. So the first year I applied

00:58:22.820 --> 00:58:28.760
and didn't even get through to an interview.

00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:32.920
And then the second year, between then, I signed

00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:36.739
up with the volunteer brigade and sort of got

00:58:36.739 --> 00:58:39.480
to a few of the bigger campaign fires over a

00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:42.079
summer. So I was probably a bit better equipped.

00:58:42.590 --> 00:58:49.309
to then apply the second time. And, yeah, it's

00:58:49.309 --> 00:58:50.909
just weird. I think people sort of think that

00:58:50.909 --> 00:58:53.630
you have 3 ,000 people applying for 36 jobs,

00:58:53.769 --> 00:58:55.769
that it's the best of the best to get through

00:58:55.769 --> 00:58:57.989
or you have to be, you know, really fit or really

00:58:57.989 --> 00:59:00.090
switched on or whatever it is to get through.

00:59:00.150 --> 00:59:04.309
But you look at my school, you look at any of

00:59:04.309 --> 00:59:05.489
the schools you get through, it's just such a

00:59:05.489 --> 00:59:07.349
big range of people that you just line up the

00:59:07.349 --> 00:59:09.829
holes and, you know, you're lucky enough to be

00:59:09.829 --> 00:59:13.670
able to slide through. So the process itself,

00:59:13.750 --> 00:59:17.909
it was long and I think I applied, I think it

00:59:17.909 --> 00:59:21.329
was sort of, say, February or so, they called

00:59:21.329 --> 00:59:24.530
for applications. So I applied February of 2004

00:59:24.530 --> 00:59:31.210
and then I missed out on the first school, which

00:59:31.210 --> 00:59:35.469
was running from July or so, and then it was

00:59:35.469 --> 00:59:38.250
April the following year that... They said, we'll

00:59:38.250 --> 00:59:41.329
find out by Friday. And I can just remember I

00:59:41.329 --> 00:59:44.010
was working at a gym and it ticked over four

00:59:44.010 --> 00:59:45.349
o 'clock and I thought, that's it. This is the

00:59:45.349 --> 00:59:47.150
day that they're contacting us. It's obviously

00:59:47.150 --> 00:59:48.809
not happening this year. So it's another full

00:59:48.809 --> 00:59:54.110
year to 18 months to wait again. And I went and

00:59:54.110 --> 00:59:56.630
laid outside in a park, just feeling sorry for

00:59:56.630 --> 00:59:58.329
myself, watching the clouds go over. And then

00:59:58.329 --> 01:00:02.530
the phone rang. um got offered a spot sort of

01:00:02.530 --> 01:00:04.530
starting in three weeks which is the way they

01:00:04.530 --> 01:00:07.670
do it for some reason you wait 18 months to to

01:00:07.670 --> 01:00:09.630
then get three weeks notice to to go and start

01:00:09.630 --> 01:00:15.150
but um yeah so then yeah april 2005 started in

01:00:15.150 --> 01:00:18.869
the in the uh in the training school here so

01:00:18.869 --> 01:00:21.690
walk me through some of the you know what we

01:00:21.690 --> 01:00:24.070
call a career call some some of the ones whether

01:00:24.070 --> 01:00:27.150
it was a a beautifully powerful call or whether

01:00:27.150 --> 01:00:29.730
it was something that maybe contributed to some

01:00:29.730 --> 01:00:36.670
of the struggles later on um when i started i

01:00:36.670 --> 01:00:40.710
started at a out of metro station so 30 35 k's

01:00:40.710 --> 01:00:45.110
from the city on the on the rural urban interface

01:00:45.110 --> 01:00:47.809
but we had a bunch of highways around so there

01:00:47.809 --> 01:00:50.829
was there was a heap of high speed high impact

01:00:50.829 --> 01:00:56.929
um traffic accidents and um It was a low socioeconomic

01:00:56.929 --> 01:00:59.409
area as well, so a bunch of house fires. But

01:00:59.409 --> 01:01:02.590
I was a bit of a black cloud my first few years

01:01:02.590 --> 01:01:06.050
in the job. It just sort of seemed after two

01:01:06.050 --> 01:01:07.929
years at that station, I went to the city and

01:01:07.929 --> 01:01:09.969
was relieving out of the city, so floated around

01:01:09.969 --> 01:01:11.690
a little bit. It just seemed wherever I went,

01:01:11.789 --> 01:01:17.289
we ended up with the shit mix of jobs. Probably

01:01:17.289 --> 01:01:24.940
one that sticks out was... Called to end up being

01:01:24.940 --> 01:01:28.139
a triple fatality, but it was a car full of teenagers

01:01:28.139 --> 01:01:32.619
that are way too fast over a bit of a rise where

01:01:32.619 --> 01:01:35.659
the kids go fast over that. So you get that little

01:01:35.659 --> 01:01:39.280
bit of a feeling of losing control, but the Australians

01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:44.920
were a tree. But one of the senior firey on the

01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:48.739
shift that I was on, he had a son who was 17

01:01:48.739 --> 01:01:53.199
at the time, who's now a firey as well. I remember

01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:55.980
it was yesterday. As we arrived, he had one look

01:01:55.980 --> 01:02:02.719
at the car and he thought it was a little BMW

01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:05.260
3 Series, same sort of car that one of his son's

01:02:05.260 --> 01:02:08.840
mates had. And he went straight to the car, had

01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:11.340
a look in the back and just turned away, took

01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:15.079
a few steps and started throwing up. And he said,

01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:18.559
I think Luke's in the back. One of the kids in

01:02:18.559 --> 01:02:20.420
the back had the same jacket that his son had

01:02:20.420 --> 01:02:22.860
had on to go out that night. It ended up not

01:02:22.860 --> 01:02:29.840
being him. But it was when we got there, there

01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:32.360
was one deceased in the car out of five, and

01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.559
I remember talking to the – and I was only probably

01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:38.940
three years into the job at this stage – talking

01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:43.460
to the driver. It was a young bloke. He was doing

01:02:43.460 --> 01:02:45.480
the usual, you know, I'm really sorry, didn't

01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:48.480
mean to do all this sort of thing. And just kind

01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:50.559
of turning back to him to say something and then

01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:53.079
the next minute he died straight there in front

01:02:53.079 --> 01:02:57.500
of us. And then start working on the next person

01:02:57.500 --> 01:03:00.159
and it was kind of the same thing. So it was

01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:06.039
just ended up three of them died and it was just

01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:07.460
like the car was fully wrapped around a tree.

01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:09.400
So it was just kind of just sort of kids everywhere.

01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:12.639
But the thing that stuck with me from that one

01:03:12.639 --> 01:03:16.800
was. the reaction of of this other guy and i've

01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:18.900
spoken to him since and it's it's been one that's

01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:23.099
um you know for him it was a it was it was one

01:03:23.099 --> 01:03:25.800
that kind of never never left him as well um

01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:32.880
uh yeah so it's just i had a run of of jobs another

01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:41.880
one um i probably it is probably leading into

01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:46.059
when more um My mental health started to go down

01:03:46.059 --> 01:03:51.760
a little bit, but I had a fire where a couple

01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:54.840
of kids had burnt in a house. They died in a

01:03:54.840 --> 01:04:03.079
house fire. But I got tasked with sort of standing

01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:07.679
where one of the bodies was. cooling the area

01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:09.239
down enough so the family could come in. It was

01:04:09.239 --> 01:04:11.139
a cultural thing. I think they were Vietnamese,

01:04:11.360 --> 01:04:15.760
I think. But the family then needed to see the

01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:20.739
body as part of their process. Again, at the

01:04:20.739 --> 01:04:23.400
time it was kind of – that's why it wasn't too

01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:26.519
bad. It was easy. I did four years of anatomy

01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:31.239
at uni, so we were doing wet labs the whole time,

01:04:31.340 --> 01:04:35.110
so cadavers and body parts and things. That side

01:04:35.110 --> 01:04:36.630
of the job hadn't really worried me too much

01:04:36.630 --> 01:04:44.489
to that point. But once the family came in, it

01:04:44.489 --> 01:04:50.130
was the screams of the things, like I say, mum,

01:04:50.289 --> 01:04:53.210
grandma and auntie all standing there just moaning,

01:04:53.250 --> 01:04:57.409
wailing and just sort of went straight through

01:04:57.409 --> 01:04:59.789
you and didn't go straight through you, went

01:04:59.789 --> 01:05:04.019
straight in and sort of sat with you. But then

01:05:04.019 --> 01:05:08.380
my young bloke was probably five at the time

01:05:08.380 --> 01:05:12.780
and I couldn't just – you get that feeling where

01:05:12.780 --> 01:05:14.340
all you want to do is go home and hug your kids.

01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:17.539
Walking home and we'd been stuck at this fire

01:05:17.539 --> 01:05:18.980
a bit late, got home and he was already in bed.

01:05:19.539 --> 01:05:22.380
But as we walked in, he was in the fetal position,

01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:26.820
the same position this kid had been in, and that

01:05:26.820 --> 01:05:32.800
rocked me. It was – yeah, just – Yeah, probably

01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:34.719
came out of left field a little bit for me, like

01:05:34.719 --> 01:05:36.440
as much as it was kind of, I was looking forward

01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:37.619
to seeing him. As soon as I saw him all I could

01:05:37.619 --> 01:05:41.059
see was this little girl that, you know, that

01:05:41.059 --> 01:05:46.000
had been burnt. So, yeah, that's probably a bit

01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:49.539
of a negative. I've had, probably from the positive

01:05:49.539 --> 01:05:51.639
side, I started with the USAR Task Force here

01:05:51.639 --> 01:05:55.980
in 2011. And that's probably the opportunity

01:05:55.980 --> 01:05:58.480
to go to some amazing jobs all around the state.

01:05:58.579 --> 01:06:01.320
So some of the bigger natural disasters, the

01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:05.099
cyclones, the floods up in the Kimberley region,

01:06:05.219 --> 01:06:09.079
big fires down south, just where the whole community

01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:10.860
is impacted, but they're actually really grateful

01:06:10.860 --> 01:06:14.260
to have us there. And then the opportunity to

01:06:14.260 --> 01:06:17.119
do some different things, flying around in helicopters

01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:20.159
and just sort of seeing things that you otherwise

01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:21.980
wouldn't be exposed to on the positive side.

01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:25.360
What are some of the notable rescues from some

01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:31.619
of those incidents? With the USAR side of it,

01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:37.539
most of our tasking is damage assessment really.

01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.019
It's not going in there and still working in

01:06:45.019 --> 01:06:48.900
active rescue as much as getting around to the

01:06:48.900 --> 01:06:53.099
communities. doing damage assessment also we

01:06:53.099 --> 01:06:55.460
do pre -impact in pre -impact assessment but

01:06:55.460 --> 01:06:57.260
then also just sort of helping the the community

01:06:57.260 --> 01:06:59.280
out with studying on the on the recovery side

01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:03.079
of things so you touched on the beginning of

01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:05.320
your kind of mental health downward spiral kind

01:07:05.320 --> 01:07:07.880
of walk us through you know where it where it

01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:16.579
landed um so probably 20 i had that job and i

01:07:16.579 --> 01:07:20.989
had another job um which at the time it was one

01:07:20.989 --> 01:07:22.150
when people sort of asked if you've been to an

01:07:22.150 --> 01:07:24.230
interesting job lately. It was one that sort

01:07:24.230 --> 01:07:28.730
of stuck out as being almost interesting, almost

01:07:28.730 --> 01:07:34.590
sort of, I guess, humorous in a way, which was

01:07:34.590 --> 01:07:37.809
just called to, I think, probably stay four in

01:07:37.809 --> 01:07:42.449
the morning, early hours. A guy in his 60s hadn't

01:07:42.449 --> 01:07:43.769
come home from work and they thought he might

01:07:43.769 --> 01:07:45.230
have had a heart attack. They went to try and...

01:07:45.769 --> 01:07:47.369
It was an older building in the city. Try and

01:07:47.369 --> 01:07:49.929
force the door. They couldn't get in. They thought

01:07:49.929 --> 01:07:53.510
he might have collapsed at the door. So we forced

01:07:53.510 --> 01:07:57.030
the door. The guy's son was with us. And as we

01:07:57.030 --> 01:08:01.329
walked through, I was in the front with the son.

01:08:01.710 --> 01:08:05.690
He was showing us where his dad's work was or

01:08:05.690 --> 01:08:12.409
his workstation was. And he had accident, death

01:08:12.409 --> 01:08:15.929
by misadventure, autoerotic asphyxiation. type

01:08:15.929 --> 01:08:21.229
thing walking in but as we saw him um the sun

01:08:21.229 --> 01:08:23.069
it sounded like he'd been punched in the gut

01:08:23.069 --> 01:08:25.109
i just sort of made this noise all the wind being

01:08:25.109 --> 01:08:30.329
knocked out of him um so yeah we didn't hang

01:08:30.329 --> 01:08:36.029
around too long um he he was obviously um he'd

01:08:36.029 --> 01:08:38.590
obviously died so we we left and it was one of

01:08:38.590 --> 01:08:40.390
those ones well you know that was a bit weird

01:08:40.390 --> 01:08:44.489
it was yeah again sort of interesting um but

01:08:44.489 --> 01:08:47.220
then Probably within about two or three weeks.

01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:49.619
And, again, it didn't sort of affect me straight

01:08:49.619 --> 01:08:51.899
away, but within two or three weeks I was still

01:08:51.899 --> 01:08:55.260
working in gyms on my days off. I remember walking

01:08:55.260 --> 01:08:59.300
into a gym and as I walked in I've seen someone

01:08:59.300 --> 01:09:03.819
dead hanging on the wall and I had to take a

01:09:03.819 --> 01:09:05.319
little bit of time to sort of shake it off and

01:09:05.319 --> 01:09:08.239
actually just stay. It was a bathrobe or a towel

01:09:08.239 --> 01:09:13.159
that was hanging on a hook in the gym change

01:09:13.159 --> 01:09:16.680
rooms. And that happened to me two or three times

01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:20.380
and then I kind of realised that's what a flashback

01:09:20.380 --> 01:09:22.600
was, not having had any real experience with

01:09:22.600 --> 01:09:27.619
it. At the time I was going through some, I'd

01:09:27.619 --> 01:09:30.279
been married for a few years and that wasn't

01:09:30.279 --> 01:09:32.779
going too well. I had two young kids at home

01:09:32.779 --> 01:09:40.920
and just found myself a number of times sort

01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:43.800
of out the back. sort of sitting under the kids'

01:09:43.819 --> 01:09:45.760
cubby house crying and not really knowing what

01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:48.300
was going on. I thought I was just depressed,

01:09:48.500 --> 01:09:50.619
so I went and saw a psychologist through the

01:09:50.619 --> 01:09:55.920
EAP and it didn't take her very long. She just

01:09:55.920 --> 01:09:57.000
sort of said, no, I don't think you're depressed.

01:09:57.060 --> 01:10:01.859
I think you've got PTSD, which I didn't really

01:10:01.859 --> 01:10:05.039
think I did at the time, but she explained it

01:10:05.039 --> 01:10:08.619
and just said, oh, would you be open to a thing

01:10:08.619 --> 01:10:12.899
called EMDR, which this was... It was 2010, 2011

01:10:12.899 --> 01:10:15.739
by the time I saw her for that. Obviously, I

01:10:15.739 --> 01:10:16.979
hadn't heard about it. It wasn't really well

01:10:16.979 --> 01:10:24.340
known then. But you've spoken to it. I've heard

01:10:24.340 --> 01:10:27.079
a few of your guests speak about it as well.

01:10:27.180 --> 01:10:29.520
But you're just sitting there and she's waving

01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:30.859
her fingers in front of your eyes. You're watching

01:10:30.859 --> 01:10:34.619
the fingers go side to side. And she got me just

01:10:34.619 --> 01:10:39.050
to think about the... the job from start to finish

01:10:39.050 --> 01:10:42.109
we went with the guy who hung himself first uh

01:10:42.109 --> 01:10:45.529
you know just think about the and the beauty

01:10:45.529 --> 01:10:47.010
was i didn't have to tell her anything or go

01:10:47.010 --> 01:10:48.510
into any details with it it was just you know

01:10:48.510 --> 01:10:50.170
start thinking through it from when you got the

01:10:50.170 --> 01:10:52.930
call at the station to when you arrived and um

01:10:52.930 --> 01:10:57.369
and as i was doing that it was it um it something

01:10:57.369 --> 01:11:00.609
just sort of uh clicks and then next minute you're

01:11:00.609 --> 01:11:03.029
you're actually there feeling it again and you

01:11:03.029 --> 01:11:08.050
you're um you're getting all these emotions come

01:11:08.050 --> 01:11:10.689
through and you go into a real, you know, fight

01:11:10.689 --> 01:11:13.510
or flight state. And then she goes, cool, let's

01:11:13.510 --> 01:11:15.949
go, let's stop there, go back. And you do that

01:11:15.949 --> 01:11:17.890
again and you basically sort of go through that

01:11:17.890 --> 01:11:19.510
so you can go through the whole job and she's

01:11:19.510 --> 01:11:22.069
not noticing any reaction or any arousal in you.

01:11:22.229 --> 01:11:27.010
And then we did a session of that. I went back

01:11:27.010 --> 01:11:29.369
a couple of days later. We did another session.

01:11:29.510 --> 01:11:31.149
We worked through that and we worked through

01:11:31.149 --> 01:11:33.670
the other incident with the little girl that,

01:11:33.689 --> 01:11:35.449
again, that's another one that was giving me

01:11:35.449 --> 01:11:38.369
flashbacks. And within a couple of sessions,

01:11:38.630 --> 01:11:43.369
I was pretty much fixed. I had no more. I felt

01:11:43.369 --> 01:11:49.250
really good. And, yeah, the flashbacks and those

01:11:49.250 --> 01:11:57.609
PTSD symptoms had all kind of stopped. So not

01:11:57.609 --> 01:12:03.710
long after that, my marriage came to an end.

01:12:11.039 --> 01:12:14.020
I won't go into too much about that, but it basically

01:12:14.020 --> 01:12:16.300
wasn't my idea. I kind of tried to do everything

01:12:16.300 --> 01:12:25.380
I could to keep that one alive, but my opinion

01:12:25.380 --> 01:12:31.039
and the opinion of professionals at the time

01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:33.539
was some undiagnosed mental health issues at

01:12:33.539 --> 01:12:39.460
the time. It was pretty rough, I guess, 12 months

01:12:39.460 --> 01:12:42.819
leading up to that. Through that time, we had

01:12:42.819 --> 01:12:44.840
tried to do some couples counselling. I think

01:12:44.840 --> 01:12:48.140
we did three sessions and the counsellor just

01:12:48.140 --> 01:12:50.600
sort of said to her, you need to go and see your

01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:53.279
own psych and figure out what's going on for

01:12:53.279 --> 01:12:55.159
you because this isn't going to go anywhere until

01:12:55.159 --> 01:12:57.239
you've dealt with whatever you need to deal with.

01:12:57.460 --> 01:13:01.420
But she didn't want to. She wanted to move on.

01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:06.060
started a different life in different ways so

01:13:06.060 --> 01:13:11.819
she um i started seeing at the same time um probably

01:13:11.819 --> 01:13:14.279
after six months i went back and saw the counsellor

01:13:14.279 --> 01:13:16.079
by myself and just i can't get her to re -engage

01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:19.500
with anything she wants to move on and so the

01:13:19.500 --> 01:13:21.000
counsellor said i'll go back and see your psych

01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:23.020
that you did the emdr with so i started seeing

01:13:23.020 --> 01:13:26.020
her weekly um that was sort of back at the time

01:13:26.020 --> 01:13:29.369
when we got more than six sessions a year with

01:13:29.369 --> 01:13:32.789
a site we could i could stretch it to i saw her

01:13:32.789 --> 01:13:36.069
weekly fortnightly for almost six months um to

01:13:36.069 --> 01:13:43.210
the point when we um she uh yeah well when my

01:13:43.210 --> 01:13:46.029
ex said she she was done she she didn't want

01:13:46.029 --> 01:13:52.289
um to even try anymore so um yeah we were down

01:13:52.289 --> 01:13:55.229
south at the time down in margaret region um

01:13:55.229 --> 01:13:58.750
and I sort of thought we were going down there

01:13:58.750 --> 01:14:02.090
to try and sort of figure things out. But she

01:14:02.090 --> 01:14:06.029
just sort of said, no, that's it. So I just jumped

01:14:06.029 --> 01:14:07.710
in the car, just said I needed a couple of days,

01:14:07.729 --> 01:14:11.130
drove home, cranked Amity Affliction, just the

01:14:11.130 --> 01:14:14.449
heaviest, loudest metal that I could for a three

01:14:14.449 --> 01:14:16.810
-and -a -half -hour drive at full volume on the

01:14:16.810 --> 01:14:20.609
way back up. And that was kind of the end of

01:14:20.609 --> 01:14:23.569
that. But she then decided that she wanted to

01:14:23.569 --> 01:14:28.289
make the separation and divorces. hard for me

01:14:28.289 --> 01:14:31.289
as possible. So I had kind of threats of everything

01:14:31.289 --> 01:14:38.970
from being reported to police, RSPCA, you know,

01:14:38.970 --> 01:14:40.829
calling work and trying to report me for different

01:14:40.829 --> 01:14:49.569
things, which probably over the 12 months after

01:14:49.569 --> 01:14:52.010
that I'd been to some other jobs and I was just

01:14:52.010 --> 01:15:02.460
really sort of starting to get into a I don't

01:15:02.460 --> 01:15:05.699
know, just feeling really hopeless. I couldn't

01:15:05.699 --> 01:15:07.800
see any way out. There was threats to take the

01:15:07.800 --> 01:15:10.439
kids and I'd been really heavily involved with

01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:12.079
them. I had two great little kids at the time

01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:17.340
and all I could see was all these tricks and

01:15:17.340 --> 01:15:20.140
traps to try and take them off me and see them

01:15:20.140 --> 01:15:25.630
being taken away. But at the same time, I then

01:15:25.630 --> 01:15:29.930
started seeing my partner now and that was a

01:15:29.930 --> 01:15:32.069
bit of a lifesaver, really. I can still remember

01:15:32.069 --> 01:15:33.689
my parents saying, you know, I don't know what

01:15:33.689 --> 01:15:36.710
you would do without him because I was just being

01:15:36.710 --> 01:15:39.770
attacked at all sides. So she's probably one

01:15:39.770 --> 01:15:42.590
of the reasons why I got through that period.

01:15:46.630 --> 01:15:50.670
But, yeah, just over sort of from there, I saw

01:15:50.670 --> 01:15:57.979
– I stopped – my psych retired, so I'd just every

01:15:57.979 --> 01:16:00.119
– it would just be then to every sort of three

01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:01.899
or four months, I'd just go and touch base with

01:16:01.899 --> 01:16:05.699
a psych through the EAP, but probably got through

01:16:05.699 --> 01:16:13.779
the next probably to about 2020 or 2021 without

01:16:13.779 --> 01:16:22.060
really sort of anything too crazy, I guess. Well,

01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:23.859
one thing that I know we haven't hit is also

01:16:23.859 --> 01:16:28.359
losing your father. Talk to me about that. Yeah,

01:16:28.359 --> 01:16:37.800
that was a big one. We called him Kev. Probably

01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:40.560
from when we were about 10 or 11, we, for some

01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:44.479
reason, transitioned from dad to Kev and not

01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:49.050
in a sort of, yeah. all mean sort of way. It

01:16:49.050 --> 01:16:52.930
was just, you know, he was a super easygoing

01:16:52.930 --> 01:16:58.609
bloke. So, you know, even when he had his first

01:16:58.609 --> 01:17:02.350
grandkids, it was, you know, do you want to be

01:17:02.350 --> 01:17:04.069
called sort of granddad or pop or whatever? He

01:17:04.069 --> 01:17:06.550
goes, no, I just want to be called Kev. So they

01:17:06.550 --> 01:17:09.229
called him Nana Kev for a little while, but then,

01:17:09.289 --> 01:17:12.829
you know, he was just always Kev to everyone.

01:17:15.470 --> 01:17:21.090
But he was amazing support for all of us. My

01:17:21.090 --> 01:17:25.189
brother was a police officer up north, so he'd

01:17:25.189 --> 01:17:26.989
fly up to look after the kids so they could have

01:17:26.989 --> 01:17:33.390
some time off or just for when he retired. Anytime

01:17:33.390 --> 01:17:39.750
he called, he'd come around straight away. 2016,

01:17:40.430 --> 01:17:49.909
we did a... Sorry, my partner and I had our daughter

01:17:49.909 --> 01:17:56.250
in 2015. So then the house that we're in, we

01:17:56.250 --> 01:17:59.890
kind of chopped in half, demolished the back

01:17:59.890 --> 01:18:02.630
of it and got a house built behind. But we renovated

01:18:02.630 --> 01:18:06.909
the old house at the front from top to bottom.

01:18:07.170 --> 01:18:11.050
And so I reckon Kev was around pretty much every

01:18:11.050 --> 01:18:13.369
day doing something. Even days that I was at

01:18:13.369 --> 01:18:18.399
work, be around there and um you know he just

01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:24.039
uh yeah we're wearing sand or stacking bricks

01:18:24.039 --> 01:18:26.020
or you know whatever it was he was sort of always

01:18:26.020 --> 01:18:30.619
around there so i had a heap of time with him

01:18:30.619 --> 01:18:36.119
um over the over that period um but then yeah

01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:38.659
one night we were around there for dinner i was

01:18:38.659 --> 01:18:41.140
instructing at the the training school for a

01:18:41.140 --> 01:18:44.680
couple of weeks at that time And so he was doing

01:18:44.680 --> 01:18:47.979
a fair bit of the school runs for the boys and

01:18:47.979 --> 01:18:53.039
we'd been around there for dinner. Emma, my partner,

01:18:53.140 --> 01:18:56.439
left to catch up with some friends. I took Charlotte

01:18:56.439 --> 01:19:00.680
home and the boys slept the night over so that

01:19:00.680 --> 01:19:04.760
he could take them to school. We'd been turning

01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:10.159
our phones off just for the radiation or 5G,

01:19:10.199 --> 01:19:13.720
whatever it was. Get better sleep. So we were

01:19:13.720 --> 01:19:15.500
sleeping without phones. For some reason that

01:19:15.500 --> 01:19:19.760
night Em left her phone on about 10 to 5. Got

01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:22.140
a phone call from my younger brother and his

01:19:22.140 --> 01:19:25.100
now wife. We were living with my parents at the

01:19:25.100 --> 01:19:27.619
time. Got a phone call from my sister -in -law.

01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:31.760
I remember Em taking the call and just sort of

01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:35.439
saying they think Kev's having a heart attack.

01:19:35.479 --> 01:19:38.779
They're doing CPR and it's not looking good.

01:19:40.699 --> 01:19:43.880
jumped up my parents only lived um five or six

01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:47.399
k's away so i just got dressed jumped in the

01:19:47.399 --> 01:19:52.500
car and shot over um when i got over there same

01:19:52.500 --> 01:19:59.399
time as the um the second lot of ambos got there

01:19:59.399 --> 01:20:09.460
and yeah walked in um gave mama hug my brother

01:20:09.460 --> 01:20:12.649
and his and my mum were just sort of standing

01:20:12.649 --> 01:20:15.689
there in the kitchen. I said, he's in the bedroom.

01:20:16.569 --> 01:20:18.310
So I just sort of went in and had a look and

01:20:18.310 --> 01:20:23.909
they just put the Lucas machine on him, which

01:20:23.909 --> 01:20:27.550
I kind of knew was a sign that it probably wasn't

01:20:27.550 --> 01:20:33.850
going to be a great outcome, but really just

01:20:33.850 --> 01:20:40.640
then went in and went into work mode, which yeah,

01:20:40.739 --> 01:20:43.359
it was at the time sort of felt like the right

01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:44.979
thing to do was to sort of block out any emotion

01:20:44.979 --> 01:20:47.260
or, or don't, don't treat it like it's, it's,

01:20:47.260 --> 01:20:50.439
it's Kev. It was more just, you know, it's let's

01:20:50.439 --> 01:20:52.359
look after mom. Let's look after my mom and my

01:20:52.359 --> 01:20:55.619
brother had done CPR for, um, 10 minutes or so

01:20:55.619 --> 01:20:59.199
until the ambos had got there. So, um, it was

01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:02.520
just look after their mode, um, touch base with

01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:04.180
the ambos every now and again to see what was

01:21:04.180 --> 01:21:07.840
going on. But, um, I think it was probably more

01:21:07.840 --> 01:21:10.640
for, as much for optics as anything, but they

01:21:10.640 --> 01:21:13.319
popped him in the ambulance, kept the Lucas machine

01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:17.180
on him. I drove with mum to the hospital behind

01:21:17.180 --> 01:21:19.460
the ambulance and just kind of kept asking why

01:21:19.460 --> 01:21:23.340
they weren't driving lights and sirens on the

01:21:23.340 --> 01:21:27.300
way. And I think kind of as hard as it was, I

01:21:27.300 --> 01:21:29.380
think I did say, look, it probably means that

01:21:29.380 --> 01:21:34.859
it's not going to be a great outcome. And he

01:21:34.859 --> 01:21:36.680
got to hospital. We just got put in our own little

01:21:36.680 --> 01:21:39.899
waiting room. And then maybe after an hour, a

01:21:39.899 --> 01:21:42.340
nurse came in and just said, like, they're going

01:21:42.340 --> 01:21:44.460
to stop working on him soon. Nothing's working.

01:21:44.859 --> 01:21:49.920
Do we want to go in and see him or see what's

01:21:49.920 --> 01:21:52.579
going on? And I said to mum, I said, don't. Like,

01:21:52.600 --> 01:21:56.979
there's probably nothing to gain from that. But

01:21:56.979 --> 01:22:00.359
the nurse talked her into it, which... I was

01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:02.500
a bit pissed off at the time. So we went through

01:22:02.500 --> 01:22:06.939
and he was in a recess area. But mum took one

01:22:06.939 --> 01:22:10.859
look and then turned and said, no, I don't want

01:22:10.859 --> 01:22:13.199
to go in there. So, yeah, they stopped working,

01:22:13.199 --> 01:22:18.859
popped him in a little, I don't know what you'd

01:22:18.859 --> 01:22:22.180
call it, a viewing room. And we took him in there

01:22:22.180 --> 01:22:25.199
just to sort of say goodbyes with him, cover

01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:28.199
it up. It's interesting because you hear, I've

01:22:28.199 --> 01:22:30.600
been, I think it was my paramedic clinicals where

01:22:30.600 --> 01:22:32.560
they started bringing the families in when we

01:22:32.560 --> 01:22:36.739
were working the codes a lot. And I can see how

01:22:36.739 --> 01:22:38.939
that creates closure on one hand, but on the

01:22:38.939 --> 01:22:42.619
other hand, do you want the memory of your loved

01:22:42.619 --> 01:22:45.739
one to be with defib pads and an ET tube down

01:22:45.739 --> 01:22:48.899
their throat? I mean, bodily fluids, whatever's

01:22:48.899 --> 01:22:51.340
going on at that moment. So it is a kind of 50

01:22:51.340 --> 01:22:53.340
-50. It might work for some people, but it might

01:22:53.340 --> 01:22:56.640
make it worse for other people. Yeah, and I think

01:22:56.640 --> 01:22:58.699
I kind of half knew what to expect and that's

01:22:58.699 --> 01:23:03.640
why I was pretty sure that it wasn't really what

01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:09.000
mum needed to be seeing. And, again, the luxury

01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:10.760
machine is just pretty brutal with the pumping

01:23:10.760 --> 01:23:15.399
that it's doing. Yeah, but, again, I was pretty,

01:23:15.500 --> 01:23:21.220
I guess, shut off from the whole thing. My twin

01:23:21.220 --> 01:23:25.859
brother was up north at the time. So it was just

01:23:25.859 --> 01:23:33.079
sort of me and mum at the hospital. And my godparents

01:23:33.079 --> 01:23:39.460
came in. So it was my godfather. He actually

01:23:39.460 --> 01:23:41.880
got ordained as a priest, but he was one of dad's

01:23:41.880 --> 01:23:44.439
mates growing up and then through their studies

01:23:44.439 --> 01:23:46.460
and they'd been really good mates ever since.

01:23:47.439 --> 01:23:51.380
They came in and same thing. They sort of said

01:23:51.380 --> 01:23:56.039
their goodbyes. Em came in. and then subsequently

01:23:56.039 --> 01:23:58.199
left. And then when I was ready for, you know,

01:23:58.199 --> 01:23:59.859
we sat in there for a while when I was ready

01:23:59.859 --> 01:24:02.300
to leave. That's probably the only time that

01:24:02.300 --> 01:24:06.439
I guess that it hit me. But as we walked out,

01:24:06.500 --> 01:24:08.939
so we walked out of the room, walking down the

01:24:08.939 --> 01:24:11.239
hallway and I sort of got 10 metres down the

01:24:11.239 --> 01:24:19.060
hallway and it was just like, yeah, I had a little

01:24:19.060 --> 01:24:23.319
bit of a breakdown and all I could think was,

01:24:23.869 --> 01:24:25.970
We can't just leave him in there. How can we

01:24:25.970 --> 01:24:31.210
just leave him in there by himself? It took a

01:24:31.210 --> 01:24:34.850
little bit just to, I guess, keep walking because

01:24:34.850 --> 01:24:38.810
I guess that's when it hit, the finality of it.

01:24:40.510 --> 01:24:48.689
Yeah, that was really hard. But again, I felt

01:24:48.689 --> 01:24:50.649
it then, but I just packed it away, pushed it

01:24:50.649 --> 01:24:56.420
down and got into it. um into work mode and you

01:24:56.420 --> 01:24:59.140
know started looking at logistically logistically

01:24:59.140 --> 01:25:04.699
what needed to be done um yeah i guess i yeah

01:25:04.699 --> 01:25:09.239
in hindsight i never really um never really grieved

01:25:09.239 --> 01:25:12.479
him at that stage it's that's something that

01:25:12.479 --> 01:25:15.539
kind of came a lot more recently with the uh

01:25:15.539 --> 01:25:18.680
with the treatment that i went through well let's

01:25:18.680 --> 01:25:21.630
go to that then so you're talking you know 2021,

01:25:21.930 --> 01:25:24.750
you're still doing okay. Talk to me about 2022

01:25:24.750 --> 01:25:28.130
and how that led you to MDMA -led psychotherapy.

01:25:32.489 --> 01:25:38.529
I was at a busy station. We were going to a lot

01:25:38.529 --> 01:25:39.989
of calls. There was some stuff that was going

01:25:39.989 --> 01:25:47.140
on work -wise. I think, again, I know you've

01:25:47.140 --> 01:25:52.579
spoken about it a bit with the imposter syndrome,

01:25:52.699 --> 01:25:54.699
but for me that was kind of always a pretty big

01:25:54.699 --> 01:25:59.079
thing. I did about 10 years as a firey and then

01:25:59.079 --> 01:26:02.439
got promoted to station officer and I had a great

01:26:02.439 --> 01:26:07.100
crew, but I still felt like I didn't really have...

01:26:10.570 --> 01:26:11.989
Always looking at other people and just thinking,

01:26:12.050 --> 01:26:13.510
you know, I'm not as good as them or I'm not

01:26:13.510 --> 01:26:17.909
really feeling like I'm in charge. And, you know,

01:26:17.909 --> 01:26:21.909
that was despite a lot of, you know, feedback

01:26:21.909 --> 01:26:25.569
to the contrary and a lot of, you know, people

01:26:25.569 --> 01:26:26.649
can sort of tell you that you're doing a good

01:26:26.649 --> 01:26:28.470
job, but if you don't believe it yourself, then

01:26:28.470 --> 01:26:32.329
it's never really going to sink in. But I went

01:26:32.329 --> 01:26:37.939
to a job on Father's Day 2022 and... It was,

01:26:37.939 --> 01:26:39.460
again, it was just one of those sort of weird

01:26:39.460 --> 01:26:42.739
calls where it was called to a chemical suicide.

01:26:43.060 --> 01:26:46.060
Five coppers, sorry, five police officers had

01:26:46.060 --> 01:26:49.840
been taken to hospital with some sort of exposure

01:26:49.840 --> 01:26:54.340
to something. And when we arrived, we were first

01:26:54.340 --> 01:26:58.520
arriving, sent sort of two guys in BA just to

01:26:58.520 --> 01:27:01.739
have a look at what was going on. Did some testing

01:27:01.739 --> 01:27:05.390
and it ended up being nothing. Well, not nothing,

01:27:05.449 --> 01:27:08.130
but so there was no chemicals, there was no hazmat,

01:27:08.130 --> 01:27:10.890
and they thought it was chemical suicide because

01:27:10.890 --> 01:27:16.090
the fella was in a full sort of latex set up

01:27:16.090 --> 01:27:18.010
with a tube hanging out of it, but it was some

01:27:18.010 --> 01:27:21.430
sort of BDSM thing where you can pump up the

01:27:21.430 --> 01:27:26.310
mouthpiece of it to cut off a bit of oxygen,

01:27:26.369 --> 01:27:29.449
but not enough. Something had failed in it and

01:27:29.449 --> 01:27:31.409
he'd died, but he'd been there for five days

01:27:31.409 --> 01:27:34.409
with the air con on full in a brand -new house

01:27:34.409 --> 01:27:37.409
that had just been painted. So his parents had

01:27:37.409 --> 01:27:41.750
rocked up and found him, but the police, to the

01:27:41.750 --> 01:27:43.930
chemical smell of the paint, saw the tube and

01:27:43.930 --> 01:27:46.609
then thought it must have been a chemical suicide,

01:27:46.750 --> 01:27:55.979
which we'd had a few of. Sort of, yeah, around

01:27:55.979 --> 01:28:01.199
that area and around that time. But the job itself,

01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:05.840
I had, because the police had all been taken

01:28:05.840 --> 01:28:08.680
to hospital, an inspector, like a relatively

01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:11.579
high -ranking police officer had rocked up. We

01:28:11.579 --> 01:28:13.220
still weren't 100 % sure what was going on, but

01:28:13.220 --> 01:28:18.720
he demanded to go inside. I said no. He asked

01:28:18.720 --> 01:28:21.380
to speak higher up the chain. I got on to...

01:28:22.350 --> 01:28:24.170
you know, my next level up with someone at the

01:28:24.170 --> 01:28:26.750
communication centre just to sort of see what

01:28:26.750 --> 01:28:29.909
his right was to go in. I was told, no, I don't

01:28:29.909 --> 01:28:31.430
have to let him in if I don't think it's safe.

01:28:32.250 --> 01:28:34.909
But he sort of, you know, almost forced his way

01:28:34.909 --> 01:28:39.649
in and I had to sort of let him go, which, again,

01:28:39.710 --> 01:28:41.829
it just sort of added something to that scene.

01:28:41.989 --> 01:28:46.729
But, you know, we did what we had to do. But

01:28:46.729 --> 01:28:50.069
when I went home, I had the family around for

01:28:50.069 --> 01:28:53.880
dinner for Father's Day. And I fell off straight

01:28:53.880 --> 01:28:59.319
away. And my partner worked for the department

01:28:59.319 --> 01:29:04.319
for 12 or 13 years. And she just started back

01:29:04.319 --> 01:29:06.920
there last week. So she sort of knew sort of

01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:08.739
enough about it for me to come in and just say,

01:29:08.739 --> 01:29:10.060
look, I'm just not really feeling it tonight.

01:29:10.260 --> 01:29:13.319
I just, I can't. Father's Day is kind of hard

01:29:13.319 --> 01:29:17.079
enough for me anyway. But I had a shitty job

01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:20.899
and I'm just not really feeling it. And so I

01:29:20.899 --> 01:29:22.819
sort of had a low -key night. But then in the

01:29:22.819 --> 01:29:27.239
few days afterwards, I started having sort of

01:29:27.239 --> 01:29:30.680
nightmares, night terrors, and I knew something

01:29:30.680 --> 01:29:34.979
wasn't quite right. So then I tried to – I rang

01:29:34.979 --> 01:29:38.979
one of the EAP providers and sort of said, I

01:29:38.979 --> 01:29:43.979
want a clinical psych, someone over 30, someone

01:29:43.979 --> 01:29:47.720
who's dealt with some first responder issues.

01:29:48.690 --> 01:29:51.810
and someone that does EMDR and I was told that

01:29:51.810 --> 01:29:57.250
they don't do EMDR sort of anywhere in that provider.

01:29:57.470 --> 01:30:01.069
Actually, no, sorry. The person I spoke to said,

01:30:01.149 --> 01:30:02.329
oh, can you just tell me a little bit about what

01:30:02.329 --> 01:30:04.710
you're going through? And I said, well, you're

01:30:04.710 --> 01:30:06.470
a psychologist? And she said, oh, no, no, I'm

01:30:06.470 --> 01:30:09.310
admin, but I need to get a bit of an idea about

01:30:09.310 --> 01:30:10.409
what you're going through. And I said, look,

01:30:10.449 --> 01:30:13.829
I'll talk to a psychologist. I'm not prepared

01:30:13.829 --> 01:30:16.630
to go into that. And then she said, oh, yeah,

01:30:16.630 --> 01:30:19.609
we don't do EMDR. So I couldn't get in. I then

01:30:19.609 --> 01:30:21.630
went to one of our other providers. We're pretty

01:30:21.630 --> 01:30:26.630
limited with who we can see. But I found someone,

01:30:26.649 --> 01:30:29.409
but it was a six -week wait to have any treatment.

01:30:32.409 --> 01:30:35.750
Probably I didn't have any time off work. The

01:30:35.750 --> 01:30:39.350
next set of shifts I went to, I can't remember

01:30:39.350 --> 01:30:43.170
what the job was, something else that rocked

01:30:43.170 --> 01:30:46.329
me a bit. And then maybe two weeks later I was

01:30:46.329 --> 01:30:51.960
– We were called to just a normal alarm. As we're

01:30:51.960 --> 01:30:54.479
getting in there to check us out, they redirected

01:30:54.479 --> 01:30:59.880
us to another suicide in a car. And the whole

01:30:59.880 --> 01:31:01.800
way there didn't quite feel right. And as we

01:31:01.800 --> 01:31:06.380
pulled into the car park where the car was, I

01:31:06.380 --> 01:31:07.979
was just lucky that the guy that was driving

01:31:07.979 --> 01:31:11.439
the pump at the time was someone I knew reasonably

01:31:11.439 --> 01:31:17.840
well. And I had a panic attack. I had had a couple

01:31:17.840 --> 01:31:19.560
of panic attacks before, but this one I just

01:31:19.560 --> 01:31:21.579
said, I can't do this. I can't get out of the

01:31:21.579 --> 01:31:23.640
truck. I was just sort of frozen in the front

01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:27.920
seat. So he just sort of went out and did the

01:31:27.920 --> 01:31:35.180
360 and basically did my job for me. And then,

01:31:35.239 --> 01:31:40.479
yeah, I mean, that was – then I started the EMDR

01:31:40.479 --> 01:31:45.890
probably two weeks after that. And again, I had

01:31:45.890 --> 01:31:50.270
really good results with the EMDR, but I had

01:31:50.270 --> 01:31:56.050
a heap of sessions and I found every time I'd

01:31:56.050 --> 01:31:57.729
sort of start getting towards the end of one,

01:31:57.829 --> 01:31:59.869
I'd get a bunch of other things coming from the

01:31:59.869 --> 01:32:03.210
side to the point where it was really increasing

01:32:03.210 --> 01:32:12.630
my anxiety and I was just in a state of, I guess,

01:32:13.340 --> 01:32:16.819
kind of uh like fear all the time all day every

01:32:16.819 --> 01:32:21.800
day just um couldn't shake it the the mdr it

01:32:21.800 --> 01:32:25.640
was working to a to a degree as far like okay

01:32:25.640 --> 01:32:29.000
i stayed at work i had we had one call to a um

01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:32.720
it was a five or six hour drive to a an abattoir

01:32:32.720 --> 01:32:35.319
where someone falling into the machinery and

01:32:35.319 --> 01:32:37.500
the other officer on my shift just said i know

01:32:37.500 --> 01:32:39.199
you're going through all your treatment you know

01:32:39.199 --> 01:32:41.420
i'm happy to take the call for you but i actually

01:32:41.420 --> 01:32:44.359
felt I said, no, I think I'm in a pretty good

01:32:44.359 --> 01:32:47.939
place. So I went to the call. And as it was,

01:32:48.060 --> 01:32:57.180
I felt okay with it. But the psych that I was

01:32:57.180 --> 01:32:59.439
seeing then went on maternity leave. And so I

01:32:59.439 --> 01:33:02.680
said, I think I'll send this to one of my colleagues

01:33:02.680 --> 01:33:05.020
who I think you'll get along well with. So I

01:33:05.020 --> 01:33:07.119
started seeing another psych. But through the

01:33:07.119 --> 01:33:11.029
EMDR, I'd used up my entitlement with the the

01:33:11.029 --> 01:33:13.750
eap so they'd scale it right back so you only

01:33:13.750 --> 01:33:15.869
get your six sessions and you can get an extra

01:33:15.869 --> 01:33:19.489
four if you if you need a uh so as soon as i

01:33:19.489 --> 01:33:22.710
started my first session with him the new psych

01:33:22.710 --> 01:33:26.090
was the um the last one that i was entitled to

01:33:26.090 --> 01:33:29.189
so he he just said look i don't think we'll be

01:33:29.189 --> 01:33:33.989
able to get any more sessions um he ended up

01:33:33.989 --> 01:33:36.369
getting me an extra couple And then when I went

01:33:36.369 --> 01:33:38.489
back to our wellness section, I said, look, I

01:33:38.489 --> 01:33:40.489
just need an extra six sessions to get me through

01:33:40.489 --> 01:33:46.029
the year. I want one a month. They said I couldn't

01:33:46.029 --> 01:33:48.310
have had to go to workers' comp. If I wanted

01:33:48.310 --> 01:33:49.550
extra sessions, I had to go through workers'

01:33:49.649 --> 01:33:54.369
comp, which is kind of to not speak to. I think

01:33:54.369 --> 01:33:56.390
I've had great support through our workers' comp

01:33:56.390 --> 01:33:58.329
when I actually did get the claim in there and

01:33:58.329 --> 01:34:01.869
through the MDMA therapy. So they do a good job,

01:34:01.930 --> 01:34:05.670
but at the time it was just that. reliance on

01:34:05.670 --> 01:34:07.869
having to go through insurance because they're

01:34:07.869 --> 01:34:12.510
not paying for it that way. But that year, so

01:34:12.510 --> 01:34:18.250
through 2023, I was seeing this guy probably

01:34:18.250 --> 01:34:21.010
every three weeks, but my symptoms were getting

01:34:21.010 --> 01:34:28.689
worse. When I first saw him, I saw my psych this

01:34:28.689 --> 01:34:30.369
morning and I was just talking about sort of

01:34:30.369 --> 01:34:33.909
some of these things with... the suicide ideation

01:34:33.909 --> 01:34:39.390
which um i've heard the term i didn't really

01:34:39.390 --> 01:34:43.750
know exactly what it was but um all i wanted

01:34:43.750 --> 01:34:46.609
i'd spoken i've got a really close group of mates

01:34:46.609 --> 01:34:49.270
and i had spoken to a couple of them about it

01:34:49.270 --> 01:34:56.449
when i sort of got to the stage where i i'd never

01:34:56.449 --> 01:34:58.149
say i was contemplating it but it was it was

01:34:58.149 --> 01:35:02.590
just a constant thought with me that um everyone

01:35:02.590 --> 01:35:05.590
would be better off i'm just making everyone's

01:35:05.590 --> 01:35:08.829
life hard i was i was um was much fun to be around

01:35:08.829 --> 01:35:12.069
with much fun to be with at home still having

01:35:12.069 --> 01:35:15.670
i guess issues with with the ex and and kids

01:35:15.670 --> 01:35:19.850
and just thought with me out of the picture they

01:35:19.850 --> 01:35:23.970
can just get on and do their thing and um but

01:35:23.970 --> 01:35:27.989
also thinking about And suicide gave me a massive

01:35:27.989 --> 01:35:30.350
sense of relief as well. Like if I, you know,

01:35:30.350 --> 01:35:33.210
it was kind of, you know, some people turn to

01:35:33.210 --> 01:35:35.390
booze or drugs or whatever it is. For me, as

01:35:35.390 --> 01:35:37.409
soon as I thought about doing that, I just got

01:35:37.409 --> 01:35:41.970
an instant sense, instant sense of relief. And

01:35:41.970 --> 01:35:46.909
it sort of then got to that point where it was,

01:35:46.970 --> 01:35:51.789
when I was in a bit of a funk driving, it would

01:35:51.789 --> 01:35:54.250
just be. That would be my thought all the time

01:35:54.250 --> 01:35:57.670
was I just need to pull the wheel into the next

01:35:57.670 --> 01:35:59.350
truck that I've passed or into the next tree

01:35:59.350 --> 01:36:03.789
that I go past. But towards the end of 2023,

01:36:04.229 --> 01:36:08.329
I went and saw my psych and it was around Halloween

01:36:08.329 --> 01:36:11.189
and every time I basically I was having panic

01:36:11.189 --> 01:36:16.060
attacks. It reads me regularly, but I was having

01:36:16.060 --> 01:36:18.000
flashbacks constantly. Every time I walked past

01:36:18.000 --> 01:36:20.180
the car, I'd see a body in the car. I'd see if

01:36:20.180 --> 01:36:23.560
there was a blanket or a scrap on the road driving,

01:36:23.680 --> 01:36:30.079
I'd see a body. It's amazing how the brain works

01:36:30.079 --> 01:36:33.199
in that it's not – everything in the corner of

01:36:33.199 --> 01:36:36.539
my eye was a dead person basically. So when I

01:36:36.539 --> 01:36:38.439
saw my cycle, I said, look, I'm having flashbacks

01:36:38.439 --> 01:36:40.579
constantly. I'd had a couple of panic attacks

01:36:40.579 --> 01:36:43.199
at work where a call, as soon as the bells go

01:36:43.199 --> 01:36:46.500
off at work, I was frozen and I couldn't do anything.

01:36:47.460 --> 01:36:50.220
I really just had to struggle to go to the truck

01:36:50.220 --> 01:36:53.439
or get someone else to take the call. And what

01:36:53.439 --> 01:36:57.100
I told him, he said, I think you need to have

01:36:57.100 --> 01:36:59.220
some more EMDR. And I said, that's great. Can

01:36:59.220 --> 01:37:01.359
you do that? And he couldn't do it. And I said,

01:37:01.399 --> 01:37:05.300
well, if I go back and see. someone else for

01:37:05.300 --> 01:37:06.880
that. Can I still keep coming and seeing you?

01:37:07.000 --> 01:37:10.239
And I think, and he said, no, that's not what

01:37:10.239 --> 01:37:11.720
he does. And I've got to sort of pick and choose

01:37:11.720 --> 01:37:15.060
who I've got to choose one or the other. And

01:37:15.060 --> 01:37:18.060
then it was a big wait to then try and get him

01:37:18.060 --> 01:37:20.020
to see someone for the Indiana. I just felt really

01:37:20.020 --> 01:37:31.020
abandoned. And yeah, I guess there's a couple

01:37:31.020 --> 01:37:38.100
of months period where it was, Yeah, it was so

01:37:38.100 --> 01:37:41.039
frequent. It was really having a massive impact

01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:44.500
on me emotionally. My emotions were that close

01:37:44.500 --> 01:37:50.439
to the surface that, yeah, it really sort of

01:37:50.439 --> 01:37:56.420
impacted everything. I had started studying psych

01:37:56.420 --> 01:37:58.699
a few years before. During COVID, I wanted to

01:37:58.699 --> 01:38:01.720
do something to sort of occupy my brain a little

01:38:01.720 --> 01:38:07.149
bit. I was just starting my honours and I got

01:38:07.149 --> 01:38:09.250
lucky enough to get onto a psychedelic project

01:38:09.250 --> 01:38:12.369
looking at MDMA -assisted therapy for PTSD. And

01:38:12.369 --> 01:38:14.949
at the same time, my brother went to a wedding

01:38:14.949 --> 01:38:16.350
and was talking to someone whose brother was

01:38:16.350 --> 01:38:19.229
involved with MDMA and ended up being the CEO

01:38:19.229 --> 01:38:21.710
of Emeria, which is one of the pharmaceutical

01:38:21.710 --> 01:38:25.390
companies that's doing the trials. And he offered

01:38:25.390 --> 01:38:26.869
to put me in touch with him. And I met with him

01:38:26.869 --> 01:38:30.369
to talk about the project, but then he just sort

01:38:30.369 --> 01:38:32.109
of said, if there's anything you need, get in

01:38:32.109 --> 01:38:34.689
touch with me. That night we went to a... a nasty

01:38:34.689 --> 01:38:37.670
job, and I emailed him the next day and said,

01:38:37.729 --> 01:38:39.909
mate, is there any chance I can get in there

01:38:39.909 --> 01:38:41.810
and see one of your therapists? Because I couldn't

01:38:41.810 --> 01:38:44.710
get in and see someone through the EAP. So I

01:38:44.710 --> 01:38:47.569
started seeing one of the psychs in at a place

01:38:47.569 --> 01:38:50.470
called the PAC Centre, which was linked to the

01:38:50.470 --> 01:38:58.090
MPACs, which does the therapy. Yeah, through

01:38:58.090 --> 01:39:01.829
that year, I saw psych in there reasonably regularly.

01:39:01.949 --> 01:39:03.670
The psych that I'd seen the first few months

01:39:03.670 --> 01:39:07.390
started the process of me trying to get into

01:39:07.390 --> 01:39:12.409
the trials at that stage of MDMA -assisted therapy

01:39:12.409 --> 01:39:14.010
or there were some other trials that were going

01:39:14.010 --> 01:39:19.970
on through Veterans Affairs. He left and I started

01:39:19.970 --> 01:39:27.420
seeing a psych in there named Dion who... Kept

01:39:27.420 --> 01:39:31.600
that on the table. I went and saw him one day

01:39:31.600 --> 01:39:34.739
and I told him what was going on and that was

01:39:34.739 --> 01:39:36.260
sort of when things were peaking and he just

01:39:36.260 --> 01:39:38.239
said, like, why are you still going to work every

01:39:38.239 --> 01:39:43.600
day? And I couldn't answer him. And he said,

01:39:43.659 --> 01:39:46.039
like, you've got to think either you need to,

01:39:46.119 --> 01:39:50.840
sorry, to go back a little bit. I saw a psychiatrist

01:39:50.840 --> 01:39:52.720
through Veterans Affairs who diagnosed me with

01:39:52.720 --> 01:39:58.640
panic disorder and PTSD. that I start on SSRIs.

01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:02.439
When I saw Dion, he said, look, I don't think

01:40:02.439 --> 01:40:03.899
it works the best thing for you at the moment.

01:40:03.979 --> 01:40:05.680
You've got to look at coming off the trucks or

01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:09.000
looking at a different career path if you want

01:40:09.000 --> 01:40:12.520
to stay within Fire Brigade. But if you start

01:40:12.520 --> 01:40:15.739
on the SSRIs, then you won't be able to do the

01:40:15.739 --> 01:40:21.359
trial. So I opted to self -fund. At the time,

01:40:21.359 --> 01:40:23.340
I had a PTSD claim that got knocked. Well, it

01:40:23.340 --> 01:40:27.500
got... Didn't get accepted. Even with the presumptive

01:40:27.500 --> 01:40:30.859
legislation, they, for some reason, they didn't

01:40:30.859 --> 01:40:34.000
accept it. So I was given the option to self

01:40:34.000 --> 01:40:37.359
-fund and just do one dosing cycle of the MDMA

01:40:37.359 --> 01:40:40.619
assisted therapy. So again, Em was brilliant

01:40:40.619 --> 01:40:44.340
with that, with outlaying 13 grand of our own

01:40:44.340 --> 01:40:49.840
money to do a single dosing cycle. And that's

01:40:49.840 --> 01:40:52.479
how I ended up doing the MDMA assisted therapy.

01:40:53.359 --> 01:40:56.460
Well, I just interviewed Dr. Ben Sessa for the

01:40:56.460 --> 01:40:58.779
second time, and he's one of the pioneers when

01:40:58.779 --> 01:41:02.420
it comes to MDMA -led psychotherapy. And it was

01:41:02.420 --> 01:41:04.739
so amazing when you and I connected and started

01:41:04.739 --> 01:41:06.399
talking about the treatment that you've gone

01:41:06.399 --> 01:41:10.079
through that this wasn't so kind of black ops

01:41:10.079 --> 01:41:12.779
in Australia, that you had a pretty open path

01:41:12.779 --> 01:41:16.359
to get this therapy. So talk to me about how

01:41:16.359 --> 01:41:18.300
this treatment is viewed, and then let's go to

01:41:18.300 --> 01:41:23.510
your first experience. It's still relatively

01:41:23.510 --> 01:41:31.329
unknown, really. I think I went and saw, I suppose,

01:41:31.390 --> 01:41:34.329
our equivalent of MAPS here, the Australian Psychedelic

01:41:34.329 --> 01:41:39.609
Society. Went and saw the top dog from that speak

01:41:39.609 --> 01:41:43.449
in about 2018 or 2019. He just did an open lecture

01:41:43.449 --> 01:41:46.069
at a university on the psychedelic renaissance.

01:41:46.409 --> 01:41:49.130
And sort of from what he was saying, we had the

01:41:49.130 --> 01:41:54.189
chance to – sort of lead the way um back in the

01:41:54.189 --> 01:41:58.409
early teens but um some political changes at

01:41:58.409 --> 01:41:59.770
the university that was going to be doing it

01:41:59.770 --> 01:42:03.430
um so they saw drugs and and scrapped it so he

01:42:03.430 --> 01:42:07.670
got put on the back burner but um then in 2020

01:42:07.670 --> 01:42:15.890
mid -2023 um the they uh rescheduled um psilocybin

01:42:15.890 --> 01:42:19.430
and mdma as prescribable medicines as opposed

01:42:19.430 --> 01:42:24.789
to scheduled drugs. So that opened the door for

01:42:24.789 --> 01:42:27.890
places to do some clinical trials in earnest.

01:42:30.409 --> 01:42:37.529
So, yeah, I think it's not something that's really

01:42:37.529 --> 01:42:41.229
well known, but I did my honours dissertation

01:42:41.229 --> 01:42:45.630
last year on MDMA -assisted therapy for PTSD.

01:42:47.760 --> 01:42:52.880
I knew a lot about it and I did a systematic

01:42:52.880 --> 01:42:55.380
review, which then ended up being a scoping review

01:42:55.380 --> 01:42:59.840
just because there wasn't as much, I guess, research

01:42:59.840 --> 01:43:01.779
as it looked like from what was in the literature.

01:43:01.859 --> 01:43:04.720
But I'd read pretty much everything that Ben

01:43:04.720 --> 01:43:06.579
Sesser had written on the MDMA side of things

01:43:06.579 --> 01:43:10.640
as well as all the other MAPS researchers. So

01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:15.500
I guess it was one of those ones in psychedelic.

01:43:16.539 --> 01:43:18.640
labs around at universities and that here was

01:43:18.640 --> 01:43:23.520
well known and the mainstream media had started

01:43:23.520 --> 01:43:26.859
talking to a few of the people that were doing

01:43:26.859 --> 01:43:30.619
the trials. So the trials here was mainly paramedics

01:43:30.619 --> 01:43:33.100
that were involved with that as well as other

01:43:33.100 --> 01:43:40.119
non -uniformed PTSD sufferers. So it's still

01:43:40.119 --> 01:43:47.819
kind of an emerging thing. When I did it, I think

01:43:47.819 --> 01:43:49.960
I started screening for it in about October last

01:43:49.960 --> 01:43:52.939
year. And that only finished the trials, I think,

01:43:52.939 --> 01:43:56.420
midway through the year. So it wasn't really

01:43:56.420 --> 01:43:59.340
well known. Well, people listen, they don't realize

01:43:59.340 --> 01:44:02.239
that we lost connection two thirds of the way

01:44:02.239 --> 01:44:03.800
through the interview. So if there's a little

01:44:03.800 --> 01:44:06.779
overlap, you know, that's why. I can't remember

01:44:06.779 --> 01:44:10.140
if we talked about it before or if I spliced

01:44:10.140 --> 01:44:12.619
this together or if it was after. But talk to

01:44:12.619 --> 01:44:15.960
me about. why that treatment is available to

01:44:15.960 --> 01:44:19.100
you in Australia versus the UK, America, where

01:44:19.100 --> 01:44:22.600
it's still demonized at the moment. Yeah, I was

01:44:22.600 --> 01:44:25.460
probably in a bit of a privileged position having

01:44:25.460 --> 01:44:28.760
done the dissertation on it. But what was going

01:44:28.760 --> 01:44:31.500
through the process, it's been a 20 -year process

01:44:31.500 --> 01:44:34.000
for MAPS to try and get MDMA -assisted therapy

01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:42.380
off the ground and approved by the FDA as a treatment.

01:44:44.100 --> 01:44:45.960
But in Australia, it sort of came out of the

01:44:45.960 --> 01:44:48.279
blue. A couple of... Well, not out of the blue.

01:44:48.340 --> 01:44:50.539
There's been a lot of work behind it. But about

01:44:50.539 --> 01:44:54.119
two years ago, our FDA... Sorry, our TGA, which

01:44:54.119 --> 01:44:59.399
is the equivalent, gave approval for MDMA therapy

01:44:59.399 --> 01:45:03.880
for PTSD and psilocybin -assisted treatment for

01:45:03.880 --> 01:45:10.000
treatment -resistant depression. So that's when

01:45:10.000 --> 01:45:12.920
they... started doing the trials here. And then

01:45:12.920 --> 01:45:17.460
by the time I started, it was already out of

01:45:17.460 --> 01:45:20.439
the trials and just into clinical practice. But

01:45:20.439 --> 01:45:22.659
that's where in the States, I think it was August

01:45:22.659 --> 01:45:25.920
last year, everyone was expecting it to get approved

01:45:25.920 --> 01:45:28.819
because the results of the stage three trials

01:45:28.819 --> 01:45:31.039
had been so promising. I think they were looking

01:45:31.039 --> 01:45:34.119
at around about 90 % of people had clinically

01:45:34.119 --> 01:45:36.939
significant improvement in PTSD. And this is

01:45:36.939 --> 01:45:40.840
people with moderate to severe PTSD. So about

01:45:40.840 --> 01:45:43.340
90 % had clinically significant improvement,

01:45:43.460 --> 01:45:45.180
which I can't remember what it is, but it's a

01:45:45.180 --> 01:45:48.079
big drop in PTSD symptoms. And it was around

01:45:48.079 --> 01:45:50.920
about 60 % had full remission of PTSD, which

01:45:50.920 --> 01:45:55.239
was then lasted for up to 12 months, I think.

01:45:55.800 --> 01:45:59.699
So sort of huge numbers, but it then got knocked

01:45:59.699 --> 01:46:02.479
back by the FDA because of... Some political

01:46:02.479 --> 01:46:04.340
reasons and some reasons I understand with the

01:46:04.340 --> 01:46:06.279
way that the trials were run. And that's what

01:46:06.279 --> 01:46:08.239
we were looking at was the non, we're looking

01:46:08.239 --> 01:46:10.300
at the non -drug aspects of the MDMA assisted

01:46:10.300 --> 01:46:12.920
therapy. And there just really wasn't a huge

01:46:12.920 --> 01:46:16.039
amount published on it. And yeah, there's a lot

01:46:16.039 --> 01:46:17.859
of reasons why it got knocked back and a few

01:46:17.859 --> 01:46:20.920
of them I understand, but there's a really interesting

01:46:20.920 --> 01:46:22.979
podcast. I think it's called the MDMA assisted

01:46:22.979 --> 01:46:27.619
therapy podcast. And Rick Doblin speaks on that

01:46:27.619 --> 01:46:30.170
about exactly. sort of how it came to get knocked

01:46:30.170 --> 01:46:31.930
back. And it's quite understandable when you

01:46:31.930 --> 01:46:35.090
say that. I've said this a lot on here, you know,

01:46:35.090 --> 01:46:37.210
because obviously I witnessed that happening.

01:46:37.270 --> 01:46:39.750
I was told about it, but prior to it, and obviously

01:46:39.750 --> 01:46:42.050
we were all excited. And then with it being pushed

01:46:42.050 --> 01:46:46.069
back and this was denied by the same FDA that

01:46:46.069 --> 01:46:49.010
approved OxyContin that caused our opioid crisis

01:46:49.010 --> 01:46:51.600
here in America. So people need to understand

01:46:51.600 --> 01:46:54.479
that, you know, the one drug that's shown over

01:46:54.479 --> 01:46:57.460
and over again to be helping PTSD and, you know,

01:46:57.460 --> 01:47:00.060
veterans and first responders and civilians that

01:47:00.060 --> 01:47:03.220
is truly working gets rejected yet again. But

01:47:03.220 --> 01:47:05.319
OxyContin, where it was, you know, basically

01:47:05.319 --> 01:47:07.840
steeped in lies on the addictive qualities of

01:47:07.840 --> 01:47:11.460
it, not only did it get approved, but some former

01:47:11.460 --> 01:47:14.819
FDA members then ended up working for Purdue

01:47:14.819 --> 01:47:17.609
Pharma. That shows you the corruption of the

01:47:17.609 --> 01:47:20.890
FDA in areas, not sweeping generalization, but

01:47:20.890 --> 01:47:24.609
how it can be abused. Yeah, it's nuts as well.

01:47:24.670 --> 01:47:27.970
I think it's largely because with the MDMA, there's

01:47:27.970 --> 01:47:29.949
no money to be made from it, really. It's off

01:47:29.949 --> 01:47:33.189
patent. So kind of anyone could just make it

01:47:33.189 --> 01:47:35.210
and run with it as a treatment. No one's making

01:47:35.210 --> 01:47:38.510
a huge amount of money out of it. I think the

01:47:38.510 --> 01:47:41.229
interesting thing with it as well is it... kind

01:47:41.229 --> 01:47:43.710
of half came down to the fda not and this is

01:47:43.710 --> 01:47:47.350
my understanding of it that the fda wouldn't

01:47:47.350 --> 01:47:50.149
approve it because it's a therapy with a medication

01:47:50.149 --> 01:47:54.289
as a um as a way to augment the therapy so it's

01:47:54.289 --> 01:47:55.989
mdma assisted therapy it's not just taking the

01:47:55.989 --> 01:47:59.029
mdma sort of closing your eyes and and the and

01:47:59.029 --> 01:48:01.350
it does its own thing but the therapy part of

01:48:01.350 --> 01:48:03.710
it is really important i mean the in the trials

01:48:03.710 --> 01:48:08.109
well the process is you do a cycle which is three

01:48:08.109 --> 01:48:12.260
90 minute sessions of preparation an eight -ish

01:48:12.260 --> 01:48:15.939
hour dosing day and then three 90 -minute sessions

01:48:15.939 --> 01:48:17.739
of integration afterwards. And then you times

01:48:17.739 --> 01:48:20.239
that by three with three cycles of it and you're

01:48:20.239 --> 01:48:23.380
sort of having 50 or 60 hours of therapy. And

01:48:23.380 --> 01:48:25.399
in the trials, if you did the placebo, you then

01:48:25.399 --> 01:48:27.319
did the medication as well. So they were having

01:48:27.319 --> 01:48:29.760
double that. So they're having up to 90 hours

01:48:29.760 --> 01:48:33.300
of therapy through that process as well. So trying

01:48:33.300 --> 01:48:35.159
to pass out what the therapy does and what the

01:48:35.159 --> 01:48:38.270
MDMA does. is kind of tricky, but at the end

01:48:38.270 --> 01:48:39.670
of the day, I don't think it really matters.

01:48:39.750 --> 01:48:43.069
It's glaringly obvious that the MDMA -assisted

01:48:43.069 --> 01:48:49.810
therapy works. And so I think Australia and Perth

01:48:49.810 --> 01:48:52.970
is the most isolated capital city, Western Australia.

01:48:53.069 --> 01:48:56.029
It's a big state, but we are kind of a little

01:48:56.029 --> 01:48:58.949
bit behind with a few things. So then to be leading

01:48:58.949 --> 01:49:01.510
the charge as far as these therapies goes is

01:49:01.510 --> 01:49:06.069
pretty cool. talk to me about what you experienced

01:49:06.069 --> 01:49:07.970
that first time and again bearing in mind that

01:49:07.970 --> 01:49:10.470
you've had you know numerous therapy sessions

01:49:10.470 --> 01:49:13.350
you've done emdr you know what was your experience

01:49:13.350 --> 01:49:15.710
in the first time that you took this and then

01:49:15.710 --> 01:49:17.789
what were the knock -on effects initially after

01:49:17.789 --> 01:49:22.689
that first dose yeah probably a good one for

01:49:22.689 --> 01:49:25.170
those that have had emdr it's not dissimilar

01:49:25.170 --> 01:49:28.189
to that and you look at the way that it's it's

01:49:28.189 --> 01:49:30.229
proposed work in your brain it's kind of doing

01:49:30.229 --> 01:49:33.460
the same thing but And like I said, I've done

01:49:33.460 --> 01:49:37.039
a huge amount of EMDR and I've done some holotropic

01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:38.600
breathing as well, which is the way they train

01:49:38.600 --> 01:49:41.039
the clinicians to administer the MDMA -assisted

01:49:41.039 --> 01:49:43.319
therapy. So again, they all kind of work in the

01:49:43.319 --> 01:49:47.399
same way, which is, to put it really simply,

01:49:47.579 --> 01:49:50.300
shutting down some parts of your brain and then

01:49:50.300 --> 01:49:53.300
allowing other parts of your brain to work better.

01:49:53.399 --> 01:49:56.659
So I think it's just kind of an important thing

01:49:56.659 --> 01:49:59.680
to realise is that all of your senses, everything

01:49:59.680 --> 01:50:02.399
that comes into your brain, going through your

01:50:02.399 --> 01:50:04.640
reptile brain first and it kind of gets filtered

01:50:04.640 --> 01:50:06.819
to that and then that gets to the outside of

01:50:06.819 --> 01:50:08.420
your brain, which is the logic and reasoning

01:50:08.420 --> 01:50:14.420
and thinking. So the MDMA helps to unlock the

01:50:14.420 --> 01:50:15.779
hippocampus, which is where all the memories

01:50:15.779 --> 01:50:18.340
get stored, well, the facts of the memories,

01:50:18.399 --> 01:50:21.560
I guess, and then your insula attaches all the

01:50:21.560 --> 01:50:24.739
internal feelings and interoceptive information

01:50:24.739 --> 01:50:27.760
to the memory. Your amygdala attaches the emotion

01:50:27.760 --> 01:50:31.159
to the memory. And then it kind of goes to your

01:50:31.159 --> 01:50:35.539
prefrontal cortex, which sort of tries to make

01:50:35.539 --> 01:50:37.020
some meaning out of it. So when you're exposed

01:50:37.020 --> 01:50:41.020
to a lot of trauma, it all gets changed around.

01:50:41.180 --> 01:50:43.779
So the connections change, the chemicals change,

01:50:43.960 --> 01:50:46.720
and it actually shrinks your hippocampus, reduces

01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:49.819
your prefrontal cortex's control over your amygdala,

01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:51.659
so it can't really shut off the threat detector.

01:50:52.420 --> 01:50:55.420
So with the MDMA, it works almost the exact opposite

01:50:55.420 --> 01:50:58.979
way of what trauma does to your brain. allows

01:50:58.979 --> 01:51:01.720
your hippocampus to work, full access to all

01:51:01.720 --> 01:51:03.600
the memories that you might have tried to, well,

01:51:03.619 --> 01:51:05.439
not tried to shut off, your body's tried to shut

01:51:05.439 --> 01:51:07.800
off in a defensive sort of way. You get full

01:51:07.800 --> 01:51:10.460
access to that. The insula gets kicked in, so

01:51:10.460 --> 01:51:13.479
you get all the feelings and emotions, not emotions,

01:51:13.539 --> 01:51:16.119
all the feelings and sensations that you got

01:51:16.119 --> 01:51:19.460
at the original incident, but your prefrontal

01:51:19.460 --> 01:51:23.159
cortex is working as well. they call it in the

01:51:23.159 --> 01:51:25.239
literature a corrective emotional experience.

01:51:26.239 --> 01:51:31.220
So you're actually able to reconsolidate the

01:51:31.220 --> 01:51:34.340
memory but change the emotional valence of the

01:51:34.340 --> 01:51:37.979
memory. So instead of everything feeling sort

01:51:37.979 --> 01:51:41.779
of scary or feeling that sense of dread, you

01:51:41.779 --> 01:51:46.899
can redo it with a more positive vibe. So for

01:51:46.899 --> 01:51:50.039
me, the dosing, I did the three 90 -minute sessions,

01:51:50.079 --> 01:51:53.510
but one of my... um i guess caveats was that

01:51:53.510 --> 01:51:55.850
i'd asked for my therapist to be one of the co

01:51:55.850 --> 01:51:58.609
-facilitators and he was trained in it so um

01:51:58.609 --> 01:52:03.310
i had i've been working with him for for um six

01:52:03.310 --> 01:52:06.270
months prior so he knew a lot about it and as

01:52:06.270 --> 01:52:08.770
same as with emdr part of the preparation they

01:52:08.770 --> 01:52:11.130
tell you it's a lot of education about what the

01:52:11.130 --> 01:52:14.069
mdma therapy is going to be but you also work

01:52:14.069 --> 01:52:18.289
on setting some goals for the therapy and part

01:52:18.289 --> 01:52:20.390
of that is looking at what narratives you're

01:52:20.390 --> 01:52:22.170
telling yourself at the moment or narratives

01:52:22.170 --> 01:52:24.829
are sort of running the show at that time so

01:52:24.829 --> 01:52:28.930
for me it was things like um i'm not enough i

01:52:28.930 --> 01:52:30.329
don't matter and that was probably a big one

01:52:30.329 --> 01:52:33.989
for me was going to all these jobs and having

01:52:33.989 --> 01:52:36.470
negative outcomes, even though you get told there's

01:52:36.470 --> 01:52:38.210
nothing that you could have done with it or couldn't

01:52:38.210 --> 01:52:39.609
have done anything different or the person was

01:52:39.609 --> 01:52:42.310
already dead, even things we get told through

01:52:42.310 --> 01:52:44.329
the school, treat it like a dummy, treat it like

01:52:44.329 --> 01:52:46.810
a piece of meat, whatever it might be. It was

01:52:46.810 --> 01:52:50.390
all adding up for me, just not really feeling

01:52:50.390 --> 01:52:52.829
like I had any control over anything at work,

01:52:52.909 --> 01:52:55.449
which was then flying over to normal life, and

01:52:55.449 --> 01:52:57.670
that really just didn't matter what I did or

01:52:57.670 --> 01:53:06.560
that nothing I did mattered at all. So that was

01:53:06.560 --> 01:53:09.380
sort of the few weeks lead up to the therapy

01:53:09.380 --> 01:53:13.000
itself. And then on the dosing day, all the sessions

01:53:13.000 --> 01:53:15.220
you have prior to the dosing are in the same

01:53:15.220 --> 01:53:16.979
room. So it's a really comfortable room. It's

01:53:16.979 --> 01:53:19.659
the setting that they talk about with psychedelics

01:53:19.659 --> 01:53:22.600
is really important in this case. So your mindset

01:53:22.600 --> 01:53:25.699
is the set and then the setting. The room is

01:53:25.699 --> 01:53:30.300
not like a normal therapy room, but it's got

01:53:30.300 --> 01:53:34.149
a fold -out couch. It's really comfortable. There's

01:53:34.149 --> 01:53:38.649
music playing, and it's just an ethereal AI -generated

01:53:38.649 --> 01:53:43.069
music track that the clinicians can adjust a

01:53:43.069 --> 01:53:44.890
little bit as far as the intensity of it, but

01:53:44.890 --> 01:53:49.829
they're pretty big on making it a track that

01:53:49.829 --> 01:53:52.369
you won't recognise later, I guess. It's just

01:53:52.369 --> 01:53:55.090
music that can help facilitate the experience.

01:53:59.189 --> 01:54:02.630
So, yeah, then the morning of the dose, They

01:54:02.630 --> 01:54:04.649
asked you just to bring in some photos to remind

01:54:04.649 --> 01:54:07.649
you of family and loved ones. So I took in a

01:54:07.649 --> 01:54:11.609
few photos of the family, set them all up. They

01:54:11.609 --> 01:54:13.069
do a few of their measurements just to make sure

01:54:13.069 --> 01:54:15.130
that medically you're in a good spot. The psychiatrist

01:54:15.130 --> 01:54:17.310
oversees the whole thing as well as the two therapists.

01:54:17.770 --> 01:54:22.649
And, yeah, one of the therapists brought in a

01:54:22.649 --> 01:54:26.729
small bowl with two capsules in it and I took

01:54:26.729 --> 01:54:29.930
the medication and then we just sort of sat and

01:54:29.930 --> 01:54:32.779
chatted for a while. partly about, again, just

01:54:32.779 --> 01:54:35.720
going over my intentions for the dose as well

01:54:35.720 --> 01:54:41.140
as a little bit at the time I thought it was

01:54:41.140 --> 01:54:42.380
going to be weird. They sort of asked me about

01:54:42.380 --> 01:54:44.039
sort of what some of my earliest memories were

01:54:44.039 --> 01:54:50.060
and, yeah, we chatted a little bit. As soon as

01:54:50.060 --> 01:54:54.500
I, probably 20, 25 minutes into it, I started

01:54:54.500 --> 01:54:56.800
noticing that my words weren't coming out the

01:54:56.800 --> 01:55:00.039
way I wanted them to and I was feeling. The music

01:55:00.039 --> 01:55:01.600
was kind of taking over a little bit. So I said,

01:55:01.619 --> 01:55:04.420
I think I'm ready to go inside. So I put the

01:55:04.420 --> 01:55:08.739
blindfold, put an eye mask on to black out and

01:55:08.739 --> 01:55:11.260
the noise cancelling headphones on and then just

01:55:11.260 --> 01:55:21.739
snuggled back into bed. It's a really hard experience

01:55:21.739 --> 01:55:24.529
to understand. And again, that's... part of the

01:55:24.529 --> 01:55:27.470
whole MDMA assisted therapy is that there's a

01:55:27.470 --> 01:55:30.670
phenomenological aspect to it. So it's the way

01:55:30.670 --> 01:55:32.789
I'll explain it to you so I can get through it

01:55:32.789 --> 01:55:35.750
in five or 10 minutes. It might sound a little

01:55:35.750 --> 01:55:39.529
bit silly or a bit simplified, but when, so the

01:55:39.529 --> 01:55:42.170
dosing session, it was sort of two hours and

01:55:42.170 --> 01:55:44.369
then I had a top up dose of another, you take

01:55:44.369 --> 01:55:46.010
another half of what you took the first time.

01:55:46.529 --> 01:55:48.630
So probably went back in for another two hours

01:55:48.630 --> 01:55:51.930
and then. um another hour after that so i probably

01:55:51.930 --> 01:55:53.710
had five hours where i was under the influence

01:55:53.710 --> 01:55:56.550
of the mdma blacked out with the with the headphones

01:55:56.550 --> 01:55:59.890
on but it it felt like i was inside for six months

01:55:59.890 --> 01:56:02.250
if i was about it up everything that i experienced

01:56:02.250 --> 01:56:04.390
through that so i just wanted to say that before

01:56:04.390 --> 01:56:07.529
i launch into it because it's um it's really

01:56:07.529 --> 01:56:10.090
easy when i've told people before it sort of

01:56:10.090 --> 01:56:12.430
even as i'm saying it just sounds a little bit

01:56:12.430 --> 01:56:18.930
um i guess trivial but the um so the first thing

01:56:19.640 --> 01:56:21.159
When I was blacked out, I sort of started to

01:56:21.159 --> 01:56:24.439
see some shapes, I guess, materialise. It's just

01:56:24.439 --> 01:56:26.859
like that period as you're drifting off to sleep,

01:56:27.020 --> 01:56:31.699
that liminal period where you feel like you're

01:56:31.699 --> 01:56:33.079
still half -dreaming but you're half -awake.

01:56:33.579 --> 01:56:36.899
So I could sort of see shapes start to materialise

01:56:36.899 --> 01:56:41.619
and then I sort of say it felt like I woke up

01:56:41.619 --> 01:56:44.680
in the backyard of the house that I grew up in,

01:56:44.699 --> 01:56:48.369
which it got demolished 30 years ago. It sort

01:56:48.369 --> 01:56:51.010
of started to materialise in black and white

01:56:51.010 --> 01:56:54.390
and then over a few minutes came out into full

01:56:54.390 --> 01:56:59.550
HD, full colour, and I could make out everything

01:56:59.550 --> 01:57:02.710
in the backyard of this house. We lived there

01:57:02.710 --> 01:57:08.210
for about 15 years. Again, in minute detail.

01:57:12.270 --> 01:57:14.829
I spent a bit of time, again, time is a little

01:57:14.829 --> 01:57:16.470
bit irrelevant, but I sort of felt like I spent

01:57:16.470 --> 01:57:20.069
time walking around the house and I could remember

01:57:20.069 --> 01:57:23.989
every bit of carpet, every bit of furniture,

01:57:24.189 --> 01:57:27.010
curtains, again, full detail, things that I'd

01:57:27.010 --> 01:57:29.890
forgotten a long time ago. But even things like

01:57:29.890 --> 01:57:32.670
my old man had a leather briefcase that he took

01:57:32.670 --> 01:57:35.350
to work and I could remember the smell of that,

01:57:35.489 --> 01:57:38.170
distinctly the smell of the leather with the

01:57:38.170 --> 01:57:42.899
cigarette smell in it. Yeah, kind of just everything.

01:57:43.380 --> 01:57:45.979
So, yeah, I felt like I spent a long time in

01:57:45.979 --> 01:57:48.520
the house, just walking around, reacquainting.

01:57:49.000 --> 01:57:52.899
And for me, again, when I explained this to the

01:57:52.899 --> 01:57:55.640
therapist during one of the breaks, the only

01:57:55.640 --> 01:57:57.000
way I could really explain it was like Happy

01:57:57.000 --> 01:58:00.920
Gilmore's Happy Place. But instead of the dwarf

01:58:00.920 --> 01:58:03.979
riding a hobby horse around, it was my dad out

01:58:03.979 --> 01:58:05.899
in the veggie garden or my granddad out building

01:58:05.899 --> 01:58:09.430
a chook pen or whatever it was. But it sort of

01:58:09.430 --> 01:58:11.289
had that real vibe of just that vibrant colour.

01:58:11.550 --> 01:58:13.409
Everything felt good and happy and positive.

01:58:15.529 --> 01:58:18.909
And then from there it was like I'd kind of got

01:58:18.909 --> 01:58:25.970
like an old record jukebox playing where I could

01:58:25.970 --> 01:58:28.729
see the cover of a record come out and it would

01:58:28.729 --> 01:58:31.210
have a face on it and then I'd get sucked out

01:58:31.210 --> 01:58:33.590
to the incident that related to that person.

01:58:35.819 --> 01:58:37.119
The first one I got sucked out was the first

01:58:37.119 --> 01:58:38.819
fatality I ever went to, which was a couple of

01:58:38.819 --> 01:58:42.619
weeks into the job. It sort of like started spinning

01:58:42.619 --> 01:58:46.020
and then I materialised in the truck on the way

01:58:46.020 --> 01:58:48.579
to the job. And I can remember, and again, it

01:58:48.579 --> 01:58:50.239
might not be exactly accurate, but I can remember

01:58:50.239 --> 01:58:52.100
the conversation I had with the senior fire that

01:58:52.100 --> 01:58:53.819
I was driving with, just being my first decent

01:58:53.819 --> 01:58:56.920
traffic accident. And then getting to the job,

01:58:57.000 --> 01:59:01.539
seeing that it was a guy who... off a motorbike

01:59:01.539 --> 01:59:04.359
at a decent rate of knots and was in a in a drain

01:59:04.359 --> 01:59:07.180
drainage ditch on the side of the road but as

01:59:07.180 --> 01:59:10.000
soon as i saw him he then rewound and sort of

01:59:10.000 --> 01:59:12.180
came back out of the ditch to the side of the

01:59:12.180 --> 01:59:15.739
road and his and two people came to him which

01:59:15.739 --> 01:59:18.359
again i assume he's like his parents coming to

01:59:18.359 --> 01:59:21.739
him everyone sort of felt happy and content and

01:59:21.739 --> 01:59:27.350
reacquainted and then um they sort of This is

01:59:27.350 --> 01:59:28.630
what happened with all of the incidents I went

01:59:28.630 --> 01:59:31.810
to. They rewound back to the person was whole

01:59:31.810 --> 01:59:34.369
in one piece and happy again and then family

01:59:34.369 --> 01:59:36.069
members or a group of people would come around

01:59:36.069 --> 01:59:38.489
them and they'd kind of thank me or they'd sort

01:59:38.489 --> 01:59:41.369
of say, thanks for being here. I'm glad that

01:59:41.369 --> 01:59:45.350
you're here. It's good that you're here. So then

01:59:45.350 --> 01:59:47.390
they would just walk off but then they'd walk

01:59:47.390 --> 01:59:49.630
off back into this house, into my family house,

01:59:49.810 --> 01:59:55.670
which was my happy place. I diarised all this

01:59:55.670 --> 01:59:59.189
as soon as I got home that night and I just,

01:59:59.310 --> 02:00:02.409
before today, I was just reading through it just

02:00:02.409 --> 02:00:04.229
to, and there was a lot of things I'd actually

02:00:04.229 --> 02:00:06.350
forgotten, even just from that experience, but

02:00:06.350 --> 02:00:09.250
I basically went through probably, I don't know,

02:00:09.310 --> 02:00:13.890
20 or 30 incidents and all of them were the same

02:00:13.890 --> 02:00:19.270
where I'd turn up. I'd say the incident, but

02:00:19.270 --> 02:00:21.329
it's not just seeing it. You see it, you smell

02:00:21.329 --> 02:00:23.930
it, you hear it, everything is in. It's full

02:00:23.930 --> 02:00:26.890
detail, all sensors involved, but there's not

02:00:26.890 --> 02:00:30.550
an ounce of fear or threat involved in any of

02:00:30.550 --> 02:00:32.069
it. Everything sort of feels positive and feels

02:00:32.069 --> 02:00:38.050
right. And then, yeah, so I then just felt a

02:00:38.050 --> 02:00:40.970
tap on my leg and took my mask off and it was

02:00:40.970 --> 02:00:43.270
the therapist that's offering me the supplementary

02:00:43.270 --> 02:00:45.770
dose. My blood pressure had gone up a little

02:00:45.770 --> 02:00:48.340
bit, so I just... They took me through some breathing

02:00:48.340 --> 02:00:50.020
exercises just to get my blood pressure down.

02:00:50.180 --> 02:00:53.300
But all I said to them at that time was this

02:00:53.300 --> 02:00:56.119
is a time machine because that's exactly what

02:00:56.119 --> 02:00:58.619
it felt like. It was amazing just the amount

02:00:58.619 --> 02:01:01.100
of detail in it. So I took the supplementary

02:01:01.100 --> 02:01:04.500
dose, went back inside, spent another probably

02:01:04.500 --> 02:01:06.279
two hours in there and some of it was going through

02:01:06.279 --> 02:01:08.460
the same job, some of it was going through some

02:01:08.460 --> 02:01:13.180
other. Most of it was fire brigade related, but

02:01:13.180 --> 02:01:17.659
it did get taken back to East Timor with these

02:01:17.659 --> 02:01:22.039
two dead soldiers. And they're the same thing.

02:01:22.100 --> 02:01:23.899
They come back to life and they're just standing

02:01:23.899 --> 02:01:26.119
in the jungle, all their family around them,

02:01:26.159 --> 02:01:31.260
and just kind of waving, smiling. Everything,

02:01:31.579 --> 02:01:34.520
it sounds silly saying, but everything just feels,

02:01:34.640 --> 02:01:37.840
it just felt right. It felt positive. And again.

02:01:38.840 --> 02:01:41.460
The only way I can really explain it to the therapists

02:01:41.460 --> 02:01:44.680
in the second break was that, again, it was another

02:01:44.680 --> 02:01:47.399
Happy Gilmore reference, but when Chubbs and

02:01:47.399 --> 02:01:49.039
the alligator are standing in the cloud just

02:01:49.039 --> 02:01:52.100
sort of waving and smiling, it was exactly the

02:01:52.100 --> 02:01:54.439
same as that, but this is these two sort of dead

02:01:54.439 --> 02:01:57.960
Indo soldiers, the bad guys, but at the time

02:01:57.960 --> 02:02:01.560
a lot looked back and waved to them. And the

02:02:01.560 --> 02:02:04.239
other one that I was talking about the night

02:02:04.239 --> 02:02:08.050
that my old man died. um got taken back to that

02:02:08.050 --> 02:02:11.850
but the got taken back to when we're at dinner

02:02:11.850 --> 02:02:15.130
at their place earlier but instead of leaving

02:02:15.130 --> 02:02:17.829
it was like i stayed around and just watched

02:02:17.829 --> 02:02:24.050
my dad take my two boys to go and brush their

02:02:24.050 --> 02:02:27.109
teeth put them to bed read them a story and then

02:02:27.109 --> 02:02:29.670
he came out it was just doing the dishes and

02:02:29.670 --> 02:02:36.100
just seemed Really happy, really content. He

02:02:36.100 --> 02:02:37.579
sat and watched TV for a bit and then went to

02:02:37.579 --> 02:02:40.220
bed and then it kind of fast -forwarded through

02:02:40.220 --> 02:02:43.979
to when we were in the hospital with him. And

02:02:43.979 --> 02:02:47.979
I was in the room with him after he'd passed

02:02:47.979 --> 02:02:58.600
away and he was just kind of... Kind of comforting

02:02:58.600 --> 02:03:01.960
me, acknowledging that I was struggling with

02:03:01.960 --> 02:03:05.399
it. But then when I left him in there, he was

02:03:05.399 --> 02:03:07.680
standing up. The same thing at the time when

02:03:07.680 --> 02:03:09.420
I broke down, when I looked back at him, I just

02:03:09.420 --> 02:03:13.279
couldn't leave him alone in that room. Looked

02:03:13.279 --> 02:03:14.979
back, but instead of sort of feeling all that,

02:03:15.159 --> 02:03:17.659
I could see him at the door giving me a bit of

02:03:17.659 --> 02:03:19.539
a wave and a smile at the door and I just sort

02:03:19.539 --> 02:03:21.850
of thought that's... He actually had, instead

02:03:21.850 --> 02:03:23.869
of it being, like it was one of the worst nights

02:03:23.869 --> 02:03:25.569
of my life, but for him it was actually quite

02:03:25.569 --> 02:03:27.329
a pleasant night. Like he got to spend time with

02:03:27.329 --> 02:03:29.729
his grandkids, quality time with the family,

02:03:29.750 --> 02:03:35.329
and then in this re -experiencing of it, he's

02:03:35.329 --> 02:03:38.090
basically quite happy going where he was going.

02:03:39.409 --> 02:03:42.609
So that was pretty much the way the whole thing

02:03:42.609 --> 02:03:47.420
went. It sort of felt like in that, that was

02:03:47.420 --> 02:03:52.899
probably the two times after I dosed was so four

02:03:52.899 --> 02:03:56.340
hours of just going through every almost negative

02:03:56.340 --> 02:03:58.920
experience in my life but changing the emotional

02:03:58.920 --> 02:04:01.920
tenor of it to being a positive one. And when

02:04:01.920 --> 02:04:04.319
I came out after the second dose, the second

02:04:04.319 --> 02:04:12.539
top -up, I debriefed the therapists with everything

02:04:12.539 --> 02:04:15.250
that I'd been through. And that was really the

02:04:15.250 --> 02:04:18.210
only therapy part of the dosing day. So I've

02:04:18.210 --> 02:04:21.329
seen on how to change your mind that some of

02:04:21.329 --> 02:04:23.770
them are actually under the influence and talking

02:04:23.770 --> 02:04:27.869
to the therapist. But with me, my therapist encouraged

02:04:27.869 --> 02:04:30.010
me to stay inside as much as I could just to

02:04:30.010 --> 02:04:31.850
try and get as much out of the medicine as possible.

02:04:32.649 --> 02:04:35.989
So debriefed them. At one stage, and I know I've

02:04:35.989 --> 02:04:39.550
had it with other psychedelics in a different

02:04:39.550 --> 02:04:41.869
setting, is where you come up with the meaning

02:04:41.869 --> 02:04:44.159
of life and you know that... you've got something

02:04:44.159 --> 02:04:46.520
massive and profound. You've just got to try

02:04:46.520 --> 02:04:48.359
and remember it when you come out of the effects

02:04:48.359 --> 02:04:50.960
of the drug. And I kind of had that, but I knew

02:04:50.960 --> 02:04:53.739
that I'd told the therapists when I came out,

02:04:53.760 --> 02:04:55.960
I knew I told them what the meaning of life was

02:04:55.960 --> 02:04:58.739
basically and these messages that I was getting

02:04:58.739 --> 02:05:01.779
from deep inside. But then the next day when

02:05:01.779 --> 02:05:03.300
I had my integration, I said, oh, can you just,

02:05:03.420 --> 02:05:05.899
I said, I know I told you what this real profound

02:05:05.899 --> 02:05:08.979
message was. And he starts flicking through his

02:05:08.979 --> 02:05:10.399
notes and he goes, oh, yeah, I found it here.

02:05:10.520 --> 02:05:13.359
It's all good. I was like, fuck, no, it's not.

02:05:15.180 --> 02:05:17.180
I was like, that's way deeper than that. Like

02:05:17.180 --> 02:05:18.880
it wasn't, it was something, it was more than

02:05:18.880 --> 02:05:20.039
that. Have a look through your notes. You said

02:05:20.039 --> 02:05:23.920
it's all good. But I guess at the time it was,

02:05:23.920 --> 02:05:26.640
that's what I was getting from all these dead

02:05:26.640 --> 02:05:28.779
people that at the time I'm thinking, you know,

02:05:28.779 --> 02:05:31.439
it's a horrible way to go. It's, you know, for

02:05:31.439 --> 02:05:34.859
them, it's horrible. What I was getting was it's

02:05:34.859 --> 02:05:36.979
actually all good. They've got, you know, in

02:05:36.979 --> 02:05:39.500
those moments as they're going from life to death.

02:05:40.079 --> 02:05:41.619
they're having this experience where they're

02:05:41.619 --> 02:05:44.239
seeing everyone that they've loved and actually

02:05:44.239 --> 02:05:47.180
sort of feeling calm and relaxed about the whole

02:05:47.180 --> 02:05:51.779
thing. So then, yeah, after I did that, I started

02:05:51.779 --> 02:05:54.539
to feel, because the MDMA sort of comes in waves,

02:05:54.640 --> 02:05:56.800
sort of started to feel it come back a bit. So

02:05:56.800 --> 02:06:00.899
they just encouraged me to go back inside, covered

02:06:00.899 --> 02:06:02.439
me up with some weighted blankets and I probably

02:06:02.439 --> 02:06:08.380
had another hour. back inside but this time when

02:06:08.380 --> 02:06:13.859
i went in um we went back to the house and everyone

02:06:13.859 --> 02:06:17.159
was there but then got pulled out to um again

02:06:17.159 --> 02:06:19.840
it sounds a bit silly when i say it but it was

02:06:19.840 --> 02:06:23.840
like being at a um on a ski resort where you're

02:06:23.840 --> 02:06:25.760
halfway up the hill and you're at a restaurant

02:06:25.760 --> 02:06:28.380
or whatever it might be and there's lifts going

02:06:28.380 --> 02:06:30.260
up and lifts going down and people going but

02:06:30.260 --> 02:06:33.220
all of these dead people that have been at the

02:06:33.220 --> 02:06:34.779
house and their families were there in a big

02:06:34.779 --> 02:06:38.100
line And they were either jumping on a snowboard

02:06:38.100 --> 02:06:40.079
and going down the hill or jumping on a ski lift

02:06:40.079 --> 02:06:42.579
and going up the hill. And it was this big, like,

02:06:42.619 --> 02:06:45.239
you know, infinity -type figure -eight thing

02:06:45.239 --> 02:06:49.560
that they were going down. And I said goodbye

02:06:49.560 --> 02:06:51.520
to my old man. He jumped on a snowboard and took

02:06:51.520 --> 02:06:53.039
off down the hill. He'd never snowboarded a day

02:06:53.039 --> 02:06:57.600
in his life. But for me, it just felt – I love

02:06:57.600 --> 02:07:00.100
the snow, and so maybe that sort of played into

02:07:00.100 --> 02:07:03.939
it. But for me, it was just a way of actually

02:07:03.939 --> 02:07:08.680
saying goodbye. And, yeah, it was just really

02:07:08.680 --> 02:07:11.420
cool. It was just seeing everyone actually say

02:07:11.420 --> 02:07:13.520
goodbye to their family and have a chance to

02:07:13.520 --> 02:07:16.979
do that and then jump off and ride down the hill.

02:07:18.800 --> 02:07:21.840
I mean, it's so powerful listening to you explain.

02:07:21.960 --> 02:07:24.500
I know, as you alluded to before, that's just

02:07:24.500 --> 02:07:27.020
the tip of the iceberg of the experience that

02:07:27.020 --> 02:07:29.140
you had. But some of the things that popped out

02:07:29.140 --> 02:07:32.090
immediately. Firstly, I've talked about this

02:07:32.090 --> 02:07:34.550
on the show a lot. I never had a single code

02:07:34.550 --> 02:07:37.470
save in 14 years. And that's, you know, including

02:07:37.470 --> 02:07:39.930
the, you know, time as a paramedic ride along

02:07:39.930 --> 02:07:42.729
and my EMT clinicals and, you know, volunteering

02:07:42.729 --> 02:07:45.609
for a little bit like zero and the black cloud.

02:07:46.109 --> 02:07:49.390
And so that inability to save is crushing. And

02:07:49.390 --> 02:07:50.850
I've said this before, you know, we've got to

02:07:50.850 --> 02:07:54.159
be careful how we train. young firefighters and

02:07:54.159 --> 02:07:57.319
paramedics because if the expectation is if you

02:07:57.319 --> 02:07:59.760
do a b and c then you get sinus rhythm and then

02:07:59.760 --> 02:08:01.279
they give you a hug and then they bring a cake

02:08:01.279 --> 02:08:03.720
to the station a week later you're setting them

02:08:03.720 --> 02:08:06.859
up for failure because you know 95 of codes will

02:08:06.859 --> 02:08:08.960
die you know things even higher depending on

02:08:08.960 --> 02:08:12.020
where you are um so there's that shame and the

02:08:12.020 --> 02:08:16.619
guilt but we showed up and we trained as diligently

02:08:16.619 --> 02:08:19.210
as we could for that moment And, you know, a

02:08:19.210 --> 02:08:21.470
lot of times, especially if it's someone in a

02:08:21.470 --> 02:08:23.850
more desperate situation, you know, we might

02:08:23.850 --> 02:08:26.189
be the only person that would have shown up at

02:08:26.189 --> 02:08:29.189
that point. So both of those experiences, that

02:08:29.189 --> 02:08:32.210
initial trauma coming from the shame and the

02:08:32.210 --> 02:08:33.850
guilt of, you know, not being able to help these

02:08:33.850 --> 02:08:36.869
people, not being able to help your father, now

02:08:36.869 --> 02:08:39.210
kind of come full circle where you're forgiving

02:08:39.210 --> 02:08:41.050
yourself because you didn't do anything wrong.

02:08:41.310 --> 02:08:43.609
You know, you showed up prepared with the equipment,

02:08:43.670 --> 02:08:47.449
with the team. to see these people kind of, you

02:08:47.449 --> 02:08:49.390
know, be like, it's okay. And I think when we

02:08:49.390 --> 02:08:52.850
talked off, off the, um, you know, not prior

02:08:52.850 --> 02:08:55.590
to the recording, excuse me, you'd said about

02:08:55.590 --> 02:08:57.390
that. It was like that they, they just had this

02:08:57.390 --> 02:08:59.750
gratitude for even being there. And I've, you

02:08:59.750 --> 02:09:02.289
know, held many hands of people that died right

02:09:02.289 --> 02:09:04.850
in front of me numerous, numerous times. And

02:09:04.850 --> 02:09:07.710
so it is beautiful the way it's reframed in the

02:09:07.710 --> 02:09:09.670
mind because that shame and the guilt has no.

02:09:10.170 --> 02:09:12.689
No place whatsoever. It's completely unfounded

02:09:12.689 --> 02:09:15.010
in our profession. Unless you were the world's

02:09:15.010 --> 02:09:16.909
worst paramedic and you did everything wrong,

02:09:17.050 --> 02:09:21.090
then yeah, maybe. But for everyone else, we had

02:09:21.090 --> 02:09:23.130
all the best intentions to try and bring that

02:09:23.130 --> 02:09:25.430
person back from the brink, but it wasn't their

02:09:25.430 --> 02:09:27.470
time. It was their time to go. It wasn't their

02:09:27.470 --> 02:09:31.739
time to be brought back. removing all that emotion

02:09:31.739 --> 02:09:33.960
and allowing yourself to tap back in and then

02:09:33.960 --> 02:09:36.779
really kind of revisit these in a positive way

02:09:36.779 --> 02:09:39.380
it's no wonder that this drug works so well with

02:09:39.380 --> 02:09:41.899
so many of us because that moral injury that

02:09:41.899 --> 02:09:44.539
a lot of us carry from first responders from

02:09:44.539 --> 02:09:47.300
war you know it's something that most people

02:09:47.300 --> 02:09:51.279
will never understand now i think i think we

02:09:51.279 --> 02:09:53.300
spoke about it early on in the conversation um

02:09:53.300 --> 02:09:55.979
about what we're looking for on the recruitment

02:09:55.979 --> 02:09:58.819
side of things and empathy empathy and humility

02:09:58.819 --> 02:10:01.739
are big parts of i think what makes people good

02:10:01.739 --> 02:10:04.779
firefighters or paramedics or or police officers

02:10:04.779 --> 02:10:07.640
so if you've got someone with that empathy empathy

02:10:07.640 --> 02:10:11.760
is feeling someone else's pain so it not everyone

02:10:11.760 --> 02:10:15.270
that see you know everyone sees sees these traumatic

02:10:15.270 --> 02:10:16.710
events differently and not everyone's going to

02:10:16.710 --> 02:10:18.829
be affected the same it can just be the way they

02:10:18.829 --> 02:10:21.609
think about it and me coming through so it's

02:10:21.609 --> 02:10:24.329
now been seven or eight months since i did a

02:10:24.329 --> 02:10:27.050
second dosing cycle in february so it's been

02:10:27.050 --> 02:10:31.729
seven months since the second dose and when i

02:10:31.729 --> 02:10:34.529
had my six month follow -up i barely raised a

02:10:34.529 --> 02:10:37.989
blip on the pts scales but sorry ptsd scales

02:10:37.989 --> 02:10:40.510
but i also have been to a number of fatalities

02:10:40.510 --> 02:10:45.810
since and Whatever changed in my brain on that

02:10:45.810 --> 02:10:51.670
day has endured up to now in that I don't enjoy

02:10:51.670 --> 02:10:54.750
going to a fatality, but when I do go, it's almost

02:10:54.750 --> 02:10:59.810
that I can see a positive side to it. So it's,

02:10:59.810 --> 02:11:02.529
like I said, I've still got the empathy. I still

02:11:02.529 --> 02:11:05.930
feel for the person, but I've reframed it. I

02:11:05.930 --> 02:11:08.199
think some people just have that naturally. You're

02:11:08.199 --> 02:11:09.939
seeing it all day and you're not affected by

02:11:09.939 --> 02:11:12.079
it. Maybe they've got a process where they can

02:11:12.079 --> 02:11:13.300
do it. I think we spoke about it a couple of

02:11:13.300 --> 02:11:15.220
weeks ago and you were saying the same thing

02:11:15.220 --> 02:11:17.760
with your beliefs and what happens afterwards

02:11:17.760 --> 02:11:20.939
can help when you're dealing with that sort of

02:11:20.939 --> 02:11:26.260
trauma. But for me, yeah, I couldn't until now.

02:11:26.659 --> 02:11:29.300
And I can't remember if we spoke about it or

02:11:29.300 --> 02:11:31.619
not, but a mate who was working as one of our

02:11:31.619 --> 02:11:34.739
wellness officers put me onto a process called...

02:11:35.579 --> 02:11:37.819
the pause or the sacred pause did we have we

02:11:37.819 --> 02:11:40.479
mentioned that um i can't remember so again i

02:11:40.479 --> 02:11:42.180
mean we've talked three times now because of

02:11:42.180 --> 02:11:45.060
the the internet let's just talk about it again

02:11:45.060 --> 02:11:48.199
just in case yeah it's just it's something that

02:11:48.199 --> 02:11:51.560
um it kind of makes a lot of sense i think it

02:11:51.560 --> 02:11:55.000
came out of of uh emergency rooms in the us after

02:11:55.000 --> 02:11:57.340
a particularly bad job where they work on someone

02:11:57.340 --> 02:12:00.140
for a fair bit of time and then lost them um

02:12:00.140 --> 02:12:02.960
and it was almost like wheel the body out everyone

02:12:02.960 --> 02:12:04.720
was sort of standing there like they needed something

02:12:04.720 --> 02:12:07.010
but There was going to be someone else wheeled

02:12:07.010 --> 02:12:10.470
in that needed help. But they just took literally

02:12:10.470 --> 02:12:14.550
30 seconds just to pause and reflect on that

02:12:14.550 --> 02:12:17.510
person. And there's a little sort of paragraph

02:12:17.510 --> 02:12:20.369
that goes along with it, something like, let's

02:12:20.369 --> 02:12:24.409
just take a minute to remember Matt. He was loved

02:12:24.409 --> 02:12:27.250
by people and loved people, and now he's not

02:12:27.250 --> 02:12:28.529
going to be in their life. It's something like

02:12:28.529 --> 02:12:32.229
that. You can make it what you want to make it.

02:12:33.949 --> 02:12:36.449
For me, I started using that afterwards and started

02:12:36.449 --> 02:12:40.930
working it into like a post -incident, like a

02:12:40.930 --> 02:12:42.710
hot debrief at the scene because normally it's

02:12:42.710 --> 02:12:44.510
just make your gear up, jump in the truck and

02:12:44.510 --> 02:12:46.609
go back to station and get ready for the next

02:12:46.609 --> 02:12:49.770
one. Whereas this just gives everyone that time

02:12:49.770 --> 02:12:52.229
to instead of, you know, to actually sort of

02:12:52.229 --> 02:12:54.569
start processing that we have dealt with someone

02:12:54.569 --> 02:12:56.630
who's died and, you know, they're not going to

02:12:56.630 --> 02:12:58.770
be around anymore instead of just, you know.

02:12:59.490 --> 02:13:01.109
I guess when you're in an incident, you get that

02:13:01.109 --> 02:13:02.470
tunnel vision and you're supposed to get the

02:13:02.470 --> 02:13:04.210
tunnel vision so we can stick with what we need

02:13:04.210 --> 02:13:07.090
to do operationally. But there's a lot of other

02:13:07.090 --> 02:13:09.729
things going in our eyes and in our ears and

02:13:09.729 --> 02:13:11.689
into our brain that we're not really aware of.

02:13:11.770 --> 02:13:13.149
So this just gives you a chance to, I guess,

02:13:13.170 --> 02:13:17.229
start unpacking that, but also to personalise

02:13:17.229 --> 02:13:19.770
the experience and you're actually dealing with

02:13:19.770 --> 02:13:22.109
a person here, not just, you know, it's not just

02:13:22.109 --> 02:13:24.619
a dummy in a training drill. I think I can't

02:13:24.619 --> 02:13:26.239
remember again if it was this interview or prior.

02:13:26.420 --> 02:13:28.840
But yeah, because I remember when when you told

02:13:28.840 --> 02:13:31.260
me that I did do that. When I think back, I always

02:13:31.260 --> 02:13:33.300
sat with the body for a moment and just just

02:13:33.300 --> 02:13:36.380
had that that brief moment. And it was I guess

02:13:36.380 --> 02:13:38.619
I was probably saying I'm sorry, but it wasn't

02:13:38.619 --> 02:13:41.340
like, again, coming from a crippling guilt or

02:13:41.340 --> 02:13:43.159
shame that we did anything wrong. It's just I'm

02:13:43.159 --> 02:13:45.760
I'm sorry that this has come to an end at this

02:13:45.760 --> 02:13:48.060
point because. You know, my whole philosophy

02:13:48.060 --> 02:13:49.920
is I don't know what's next, but I know that

02:13:49.920 --> 02:13:53.100
I fucking love this life at the moment. So for

02:13:53.100 --> 02:13:55.479
me, it's still sad when we lose someone. Now,

02:13:55.520 --> 02:13:58.539
hopefully there's something beautiful next. And,

02:13:58.539 --> 02:14:01.380
you know, that ties in. But that was definitely

02:14:01.380 --> 02:14:03.659
something that I did very deliberately, whether

02:14:03.659 --> 02:14:07.659
it was, you know, DOA, 90 year old, you know,

02:14:07.659 --> 02:14:10.960
cancer patient who'd finally passed away or whether

02:14:10.960 --> 02:14:13.100
it was someone that was, you know, nailed by

02:14:13.100 --> 02:14:15.340
a semi. It was the same kind of thing. It was

02:14:15.340 --> 02:14:18.149
always just like, OK. making sure that you stay

02:14:18.149 --> 02:14:21.569
connected that this was a human being with people

02:14:21.569 --> 02:14:23.829
that love them that's now being lost and just

02:14:23.829 --> 02:14:25.770
just acknowledging that tragedy because it is

02:14:25.770 --> 02:14:28.529
tragic and then you know circling around to what

02:14:28.529 --> 02:14:31.109
you were able to experience turning that into

02:14:31.109 --> 02:14:33.789
a positive way but you were there you responded

02:14:33.789 --> 02:14:37.170
to that point but yeah i mean if you just see

02:14:37.170 --> 02:14:39.909
people as you know cadavers then i think that

02:14:39.909 --> 02:14:42.369
again can be detrimental to your mental health

02:14:42.369 --> 02:14:46.619
yeah because i think as as humans we know you

02:14:46.619 --> 02:14:49.100
can tell yourself and again i did a fair bit

02:14:49.100 --> 02:14:51.840
of anatomy at uni so i was used to cadavers and

02:14:51.840 --> 02:14:54.939
bodies and but in that context they are just

02:14:54.939 --> 02:14:57.659
body parts and and you're in a nice calm environment

02:14:57.659 --> 02:14:59.840
when you're at incidents it's generally a fair

02:14:59.840 --> 02:15:03.060
bit of stuff going on and as humans you can sort

02:15:03.060 --> 02:15:06.000
of tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself

02:15:06.000 --> 02:15:07.560
but the reality is there's things that are going

02:15:07.560 --> 02:15:12.250
to happen as empathic beings that uh you know

02:15:12.250 --> 02:15:14.850
they start to build up and and change the way

02:15:14.850 --> 02:15:17.869
that your brain's working i think absolutely

02:15:17.869 --> 02:15:21.069
well sadly depending on which country people

02:15:21.069 --> 02:15:24.909
listening to this on you may have to go underground

02:15:24.909 --> 02:15:27.529
to find this incredibly powerful treatment for

02:15:27.529 --> 02:15:30.550
mental health but you alluded to in australia

02:15:30.550 --> 02:15:32.770
obviously it's a lot more accessible so for people

02:15:32.770 --> 02:15:35.569
listening in your part of the world how are they

02:15:35.569 --> 02:15:37.869
able to start the road to accessing this treatment

02:15:37.869 --> 02:15:42.659
themselves That's a real tricky one. When I went

02:15:42.659 --> 02:15:49.680
in for... I still see Dionne for therapy. That

02:15:49.680 --> 02:15:52.300
was part of the... I had a works comp review

02:15:52.300 --> 02:15:57.020
after my second dosing cycle and she was basically...

02:15:57.020 --> 02:16:00.140
The psychiatrist I saw just said, like, you basically

02:16:00.140 --> 02:16:02.439
don't have PTSD anymore, but, you know, continue

02:16:02.439 --> 02:16:04.640
on, just still keep seeing the psych every three

02:16:04.640 --> 02:16:07.300
or four weeks. Which then, strange enough, means

02:16:07.300 --> 02:16:09.579
the insurance company says it's maintenance treatment

02:16:09.579 --> 02:16:11.539
and they're not going to fund it. So kind of

02:16:11.539 --> 02:16:14.560
back to my six sessions a year. God forbid you

02:16:14.560 --> 02:16:16.520
get into preventative care. That just sounds

02:16:16.520 --> 02:16:20.399
crazy talk. Yeah. But, yeah, so when I went in

02:16:20.399 --> 02:16:24.960
last week, I was just asking one of the staff

02:16:24.960 --> 02:16:27.520
there that works next door at the MDMA, where

02:16:27.520 --> 02:16:32.409
they do the MDMA therapy. But they had... I think

02:16:32.409 --> 02:16:34.469
it was, say, from July last year to July this

02:16:34.469 --> 02:16:36.389
year, they had 30 people through the program,

02:16:36.549 --> 02:16:38.850
and this year they've had 60 through already.

02:16:39.010 --> 02:16:42.670
So it's getting bigger, and some of the big insurers

02:16:42.670 --> 02:16:46.850
here are starting to fund it. And I know we're

02:16:46.850 --> 02:16:50.510
covered by the state government insurance. I

02:16:50.510 --> 02:16:52.709
was the first one to get the approval, to get

02:16:52.709 --> 02:16:55.510
that approval. So I paid for it up front, and

02:16:55.510 --> 02:16:57.290
then I got every cent paid back from insurance,

02:16:57.469 --> 02:16:59.569
which was great, and work were really good with

02:16:59.569 --> 02:17:03.319
advocating for that. But I know there's – I've

02:17:03.319 --> 02:17:06.700
got another mate from work who starts in the

02:17:06.700 --> 02:17:10.059
next couple of weeks. So he's already got funding

02:17:10.059 --> 02:17:13.239
approval for three full cycles, which is really

02:17:13.239 --> 02:17:17.500
cool to hear. As far as getting – there's only

02:17:17.500 --> 02:17:24.479
– when I did mine, there was only three psychiatrists

02:17:24.479 --> 02:17:27.059
in – I think it was either in Western Australia

02:17:27.059 --> 02:17:30.340
or in Australia total that were – that were licensed

02:17:30.340 --> 02:17:33.079
prescribers of MDMA. So while it's been classified

02:17:33.079 --> 02:17:34.959
as a medication, it's still under a special license.

02:17:35.600 --> 02:17:38.979
So that makes it really hard to get access to.

02:17:39.739 --> 02:17:43.219
I don't really have a real answer to you. I did

02:17:43.219 --> 02:17:46.280
my treatment through the clinic where I was seeing

02:17:46.280 --> 02:17:50.479
the psychologist, which is called the PAX Centre.

02:17:50.959 --> 02:17:54.139
And MPACS is the company that's doing the...

02:17:55.200 --> 02:17:57.159
mdma assisted therapy and now they've got approval

02:17:57.159 --> 02:18:00.739
to do psilocybin assisted therapy um which is

02:18:00.739 --> 02:18:03.000
the combination of ameria which is the the pharmaceutical

02:18:03.000 --> 02:18:06.100
company or the research company more than pharmaceuticals

02:18:06.100 --> 02:18:09.760
research company um so yeah all i can say is

02:18:09.760 --> 02:18:14.059
probably if they speak to their gp or their their

02:18:14.059 --> 02:18:17.579
doctor or psychiatrist about it and then try

02:18:17.579 --> 02:18:21.200
and figure out an avenue in from there otherwise

02:18:23.469 --> 02:18:25.770
I think if everyone starts bombarding the PAC

02:18:25.770 --> 02:18:28.629
center, they're probably going to get, they're

02:18:28.629 --> 02:18:30.290
going to run out of slots pretty quickly. Yeah.

02:18:30.329 --> 02:18:32.489
I mean, but that explains it though. Supply and

02:18:32.489 --> 02:18:34.170
demand. You know what I mean? And even from an

02:18:34.170 --> 02:18:35.510
insurance point of view, and I was talking to

02:18:35.510 --> 02:18:38.270
Ben Sessa, you know, if you have a therapy that

02:18:38.270 --> 02:18:41.209
costs, I mean, I know you were alluding to Australian

02:18:41.209 --> 02:18:42.829
dollars. So it's even less to people listening

02:18:42.829 --> 02:18:44.770
American. I think it's almost like two to one.

02:18:45.750 --> 02:18:49.069
So let's say, you know, 15 ,000 us for the three

02:18:49.069 --> 02:18:52.680
treatments together, 20 ,000. What is that going

02:18:52.680 --> 02:18:55.500
to save down the road for all the mental health

02:18:55.500 --> 02:18:58.180
treatments and the psychiatric meds and everything

02:18:58.180 --> 02:19:01.239
else when you can literally knock this on its

02:19:01.239 --> 02:19:03.700
head with three sessions? And then, as you mentioned,

02:19:03.760 --> 02:19:06.100
the imperative top up sessions, of course, life

02:19:06.100 --> 02:19:08.040
doesn't just suddenly become like a Disney movie.

02:19:08.780 --> 02:19:11.979
So even financially. It makes so much sense.

02:19:13.940 --> 02:19:17.420
For mental health, there's not many medications

02:19:17.420 --> 02:19:19.459
that actually cure a mental health condition.

02:19:19.680 --> 02:19:23.479
They're used to manage it. You go on SSRIs. For

02:19:23.479 --> 02:19:25.120
some people, they could go on them for a few

02:19:25.120 --> 02:19:26.959
months just while they have some intensive treatment

02:19:26.959 --> 02:19:29.200
and come off, but largely people stay on them

02:19:29.200 --> 02:19:33.459
for life. I've seen it in my 20 years in this

02:19:33.459 --> 02:19:37.299
job is people don't come back from taking...

02:19:37.819 --> 02:19:40.959
workers' comp leave for mental health. They'll

02:19:40.959 --> 02:19:46.040
have probably 12, 18 months off work and then

02:19:46.040 --> 02:19:49.719
they're medically retired. So it's a really small

02:19:49.719 --> 02:19:52.180
cost in the scheme of things to say if you're

02:19:52.180 --> 02:19:53.680
doing the three cycles, you have three months

02:19:53.680 --> 02:19:57.879
off work because a big part of it is the changes

02:19:57.879 --> 02:20:00.920
in your brain from the MDMA persist for three

02:20:00.920 --> 02:20:04.459
or four weeks afterwards. Ben and Cesar talking

02:20:04.459 --> 02:20:07.159
to you about that was that neuroplasticity. The

02:20:07.159 --> 02:20:08.600
neuroplasticity is a really important thing.

02:20:08.739 --> 02:20:11.360
Your brain stays in that altered state essentially

02:20:11.360 --> 02:20:14.260
for a few weeks and that's why the integration

02:20:14.260 --> 02:20:16.219
afterwards is so important and that's probably

02:20:16.219 --> 02:20:20.840
why I'd probably just if people are looking at

02:20:20.840 --> 02:20:24.079
the underground sources of this sort of treatment

02:20:24.079 --> 02:20:26.700
is that they do it pretty cautiously because

02:20:26.700 --> 02:20:30.600
the therapy side of it is really important. I

02:20:30.600 --> 02:20:34.659
think I probably had underplayed the role of

02:20:34.659 --> 02:20:37.860
the MDMA as far as the experiential side of it.

02:20:37.920 --> 02:20:41.340
So that phenomenological aspect of it is very

02:20:41.340 --> 02:20:43.520
important and the MDMA is very important. But

02:20:43.520 --> 02:20:45.760
if you go in underprepared or you don't really

02:20:45.760 --> 02:20:47.600
have a clear intention, you haven't really worked

02:20:47.600 --> 02:20:50.420
out through therapy what's going on for you,

02:20:50.540 --> 02:20:52.840
I think some people could have a really negative

02:20:52.840 --> 02:20:56.559
experience from it. So it's one of those ones

02:20:56.559 --> 02:20:59.399
you can't just... grab some MDMA off the street.

02:20:59.559 --> 02:21:01.180
And also you never really know what you're getting

02:21:01.180 --> 02:21:03.360
with this. It's pharmaceutical grade straight

02:21:03.360 --> 02:21:06.700
out of a chemist. So, yeah, I think people have

02:21:06.700 --> 02:21:10.959
to be a little bit careful, but money -wise it's,

02:21:11.120 --> 02:21:15.219
like, say for us it's $30 ,000 for the course

02:21:15.219 --> 02:21:18.340
of treatment and three months off work, so make

02:21:18.340 --> 02:21:22.700
another $30 ,000, $60 ,000 to fix someone. And,

02:21:22.780 --> 02:21:26.149
you know, for me... I'd like to be doing another

02:21:26.149 --> 02:21:29.709
15 years if I could. I can do that now because

02:21:29.709 --> 02:21:31.909
of a relatively small investment in the scheme

02:21:31.909 --> 02:21:35.129
of things. Well, this is what makes these conversations

02:21:35.129 --> 02:21:39.309
so amazing. And obviously, this is why I have

02:21:39.309 --> 02:21:41.729
the podcast is to immerse people in all these

02:21:41.729 --> 02:21:43.930
different tools. MDMA may not be the right fit

02:21:43.930 --> 02:21:47.069
for one person. It might just be equine therapy.

02:21:47.770 --> 02:21:50.090
talk therapy and that's all they need, all that

02:21:50.090 --> 02:21:51.409
person needs. But then you've got others that

02:21:51.409 --> 02:21:53.950
need a full Ibogaine because they've got a crushing

02:21:53.950 --> 02:21:55.889
addiction at the same time. But understanding

02:21:55.889 --> 02:21:58.670
that there's this toolbox, I think is so important

02:21:58.670 --> 02:22:01.010
because now you restore hope. If someone's just

02:22:01.010 --> 02:22:04.590
done EMDR and psychotherapy and they're like,

02:22:04.670 --> 02:22:07.270
well, I'm broken. They can't fix me. There's

02:22:07.270 --> 02:22:09.870
no point. Why should I carry on? But then someone

02:22:09.870 --> 02:22:11.190
holds their hand and said, well, look, there's

02:22:11.190 --> 02:22:13.750
all these other things that you can try. Don't

02:22:13.750 --> 02:22:17.319
give up yet. Try these other things. You know,

02:22:17.340 --> 02:22:20.319
the most powerful thing I'm getting from all

02:22:20.319 --> 02:22:22.340
these conversations is post -traumatic growth.

02:22:22.700 --> 02:22:26.000
And, you know, we have a very victim mindset

02:22:26.000 --> 02:22:28.899
really ingrained into American society here,

02:22:28.979 --> 02:22:31.000
where, for example, you know, when I hurt my

02:22:31.000 --> 02:22:33.860
back, I could have gone down the back injury

02:22:33.860 --> 02:22:36.420
medical retirement route. But I was like, well,

02:22:36.520 --> 02:22:39.729
no. If I hurt my back with a trauma, there's

02:22:39.729 --> 02:22:41.909
got to be ways where I can fix my back with movement,

02:22:41.950 --> 02:22:43.889
with strengthening, with all the things. And

02:22:43.889 --> 02:22:46.270
there's some things like my knees, my meniscus,

02:22:46.270 --> 02:22:47.989
that was surgery because it was flapping around.

02:22:48.129 --> 02:22:51.229
There was no rehab in that. But with the back,

02:22:51.309 --> 02:22:53.030
I was able to do it through foundation training,

02:22:53.170 --> 02:22:55.729
through movement, through chiropractic. And so

02:22:55.729 --> 02:22:58.909
then, like the other day, I did a firefighter

02:22:58.909 --> 02:23:03.229
kind of fundraiser fitness competition that I

02:23:03.229 --> 02:23:06.399
do every year. And it was numerous deadlifts

02:23:06.399 --> 02:23:09.000
and all kinds of stuff at 51, and I'm still doing

02:23:09.000 --> 02:23:11.280
it. And I'm not breaking world records, but I

02:23:11.280 --> 02:23:13.760
overcame that back injury, figured out how I

02:23:13.760 --> 02:23:16.540
got hurt in the first place, fixed those things,

02:23:16.620 --> 02:23:19.659
and made it even stronger. And I think this is

02:23:19.659 --> 02:23:21.920
the hope of post -traumatic growth. When you

02:23:21.920 --> 02:23:24.420
tell your story and all these other people that

02:23:24.420 --> 02:23:26.799
have come on here tell their story, and not like

02:23:26.799 --> 02:23:30.120
I am fixed, I'll never be sad again, but I came

02:23:30.120 --> 02:23:32.760
out of that dark, dark place. I went through

02:23:32.760 --> 02:23:36.120
the crucible, and now I am. mat 2 .0 i'm a better

02:23:36.120 --> 02:23:38.120
version of a more resilient version of myself

02:23:38.120 --> 02:23:41.260
that then gives hope to the people that are struggling

02:23:41.260 --> 02:23:43.559
like oh no if i get through it's not going to

02:23:43.559 --> 02:23:47.280
be living with my ptsd air quotes and my therapy

02:23:47.280 --> 02:23:49.020
dog and all this stuff and i don't mean to sound

02:23:49.020 --> 02:23:51.819
condescending but that's the message that's given

02:23:51.819 --> 02:23:55.020
yeah versus fuck that i'm going to go through

02:23:55.020 --> 02:23:57.819
and i'm going to use this trauma to to become

02:23:57.819 --> 02:24:00.280
a strength the same way as i became a good firefighter

02:24:00.280 --> 02:24:01.799
because i went through some shit when i was young

02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:05.040
that never ends And so I think this is what makes

02:24:05.040 --> 02:24:07.639
it so powerful about your story and so many others

02:24:07.639 --> 02:24:09.340
on here. And thank you so much for telling it

02:24:09.340 --> 02:24:13.979
is that I hope people listening were going. So

02:24:13.979 --> 02:24:17.180
I can get better, not just better. I can be a

02:24:17.180 --> 02:24:20.559
better version of myself than I was prior to

02:24:20.559 --> 02:24:22.760
going through these struggles. And I think if

02:24:22.760 --> 02:24:25.020
that was front and center, it would really inspire

02:24:25.020 --> 02:24:27.319
people to actually do the work and look for the

02:24:27.319 --> 02:24:30.739
solutions. Yeah. And I think I was a really big

02:24:30.739 --> 02:24:33.930
fan of EMDR. And like I said, The way EMDR works

02:24:33.930 --> 02:24:37.250
is very similar to the MDMA and the feeling of

02:24:37.250 --> 02:24:41.090
it is very similar. And the difference is with

02:24:41.090 --> 02:24:44.190
the EMDR, you kind of have to, one is that your

02:24:44.190 --> 02:24:47.049
amygdala is not taken offline. So with me, towards

02:24:47.049 --> 02:24:51.129
the, after 10 years of having that treatment,

02:24:51.229 --> 02:24:52.090
I was just getting to the point where there was

02:24:52.090 --> 02:24:53.370
too much in there and I was getting a lot of

02:24:53.370 --> 02:24:55.889
negative and a lot of, I was getting really confused

02:24:55.889 --> 02:24:58.610
and discombobulated when I was having the EMDR

02:24:58.610 --> 02:25:01.149
and I was leaving feeling worse than when I started.

02:25:01.209 --> 02:25:03.780
But when I first. had it it worked a treat it

02:25:03.780 --> 02:25:06.559
it actually i think it helped me reprocess some

02:25:06.559 --> 02:25:08.680
of those things but obviously there's a little

02:25:08.680 --> 02:25:10.879
bit too much that built up as well as you know

02:25:10.879 --> 02:25:14.799
that's that's just my my makeup but i never i

02:25:14.799 --> 02:25:17.559
wasn't never really a big fan of of post -traumatic

02:25:17.559 --> 02:25:20.100
growth because again it was me probably being

02:25:20.100 --> 02:25:25.600
a bit defensive but i sort of saw it as if you've

02:25:25.600 --> 02:25:27.819
got post -traumatic stress and post -traumatic

02:25:27.819 --> 02:25:30.469
growth then Post -traumatic growth is a choice

02:25:30.469 --> 02:25:34.129
and, you know, I'm failing because I can't turn

02:25:34.129 --> 02:25:38.190
these things into growth and it was a sense of,

02:25:38.209 --> 02:25:40.649
I guess it was a sense of shame for me, you know,

02:25:40.670 --> 02:25:43.549
I should be able to and probably a little bit

02:25:43.549 --> 02:25:47.899
more. open to seeing a psychologist and maybe

02:25:47.899 --> 02:25:49.479
a little more educated on some of these psychological

02:25:49.479 --> 02:25:52.059
things. So I should be one that's actually having

02:25:52.059 --> 02:25:54.459
this post -traumatic growth instead of really

02:25:54.459 --> 02:25:56.000
struggling with it to the point where I can't

02:25:56.000 --> 02:25:58.819
stay at work anymore. But having gone through

02:25:58.819 --> 02:26:02.780
this, that's exactly what it is. It's of being

02:26:02.780 --> 02:26:08.959
able to have a massive mindset change where it

02:26:08.959 --> 02:26:13.069
has been. And probably what this does is it helps

02:26:13.069 --> 02:26:15.049
you remember everything as well. There's all

02:26:15.049 --> 02:26:17.049
these things in your brain that you've packed

02:26:17.049 --> 02:26:19.909
down or you've compartmentalised without decompartmentalising

02:26:19.909 --> 02:26:24.969
it. So I can now remember everything in graphic

02:26:24.969 --> 02:26:27.530
detail, but like I said, it's now been remembered

02:26:27.530 --> 02:26:33.309
with a positive charge to it. The line I like

02:26:33.309 --> 02:26:37.190
from a Pearl Jam song is the... Who forgets will

02:26:37.190 --> 02:26:40.030
be destined to remember. And I think that's exactly

02:26:40.030 --> 02:26:42.629
what it is. If you forget about it, it's going

02:26:42.629 --> 02:26:44.129
to come back up. You need to keep remembering

02:26:44.129 --> 02:26:47.049
these things. And this treatment just gives you

02:26:47.049 --> 02:26:52.530
that way to remember it but to come out with

02:26:52.530 --> 02:26:55.530
that. It really is post -traumatic growth. You're

02:26:55.530 --> 02:26:57.190
growing from it. You're becoming a better person

02:26:57.190 --> 02:27:00.510
and better able to handle life afterwards. Beautiful.

02:27:01.229 --> 02:27:02.829
Well, Matt, I want to be mindful of your time.

02:27:02.909 --> 02:27:04.770
I know it's super late there in Brisbane now.

02:27:05.510 --> 02:27:08.049
I think collectively we've been talking for well

02:27:08.049 --> 02:27:10.709
over two hours now. So for people listening,

02:27:10.870 --> 02:27:13.950
if they want to follow you or reach out to you,

02:27:13.950 --> 02:27:15.709
whatever it is, where are the best places online

02:27:15.709 --> 02:27:19.270
to do that? I'm always happy to chat with people,

02:27:19.370 --> 02:27:22.270
as you can probably tell by this podcast. I don't

02:27:22.270 --> 02:27:27.409
mind a chat. I'm on Facebook, Instagram. I'm

02:27:27.409 --> 02:27:31.010
always happy for people just to... Send me a

02:27:31.010 --> 02:27:33.469
DM or a PM or whatever they call them on those.

02:27:35.709 --> 02:27:39.010
I've done it with several of your guests just

02:27:39.010 --> 02:27:40.950
to reach out and hit them up just to try and

02:27:40.950 --> 02:27:43.209
get some information on peer support or some

02:27:43.209 --> 02:27:45.690
of the processes. So, yeah, I'm more than happy

02:27:45.690 --> 02:27:49.569
to chat to people on those. Brilliant. Well,

02:27:49.610 --> 02:27:52.270
I'll put your Instagram on the show notes so

02:27:52.270 --> 02:27:54.309
people, if they can't find you online, they can

02:27:54.309 --> 02:27:57.739
look there. I want to thank you so much. So,

02:27:57.739 --> 02:27:59.680
so much, as I say to so many people that really

02:27:59.680 --> 02:28:01.959
come here and have the courage to be truly vulnerable,

02:28:02.219 --> 02:28:04.959
you know, your stories are saving lives full

02:28:04.959 --> 02:28:07.440
stop. And then especially when we're venturing

02:28:07.440 --> 02:28:11.139
into these areas that some people still frown

02:28:11.139 --> 02:28:14.420
upon, pulling that veil back and showing the

02:28:14.420 --> 02:28:16.840
healing qualities when done responsibly of some

02:28:16.840 --> 02:28:19.139
of these. And again, not going to save every

02:28:19.139 --> 02:28:21.940
single person, but. is another tool in the toolbox.

02:28:22.239 --> 02:28:24.639
It's so important. But to hear it from you, from

02:28:24.639 --> 02:28:27.840
a nation where they've actually allowed their

02:28:27.840 --> 02:28:30.120
citizens to have access to this lifesaving treatment,

02:28:30.200 --> 02:28:32.700
it's been phenomenal to hear. So I want to thank

02:28:32.700 --> 02:28:34.819
you so, so much for being so generous with your

02:28:34.819 --> 02:28:37.120
time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast

02:28:37.120 --> 02:28:40.219
today. Yeah, thanks, man. I appreciate the opportunity.

02:28:40.440 --> 02:28:46.799
It worked so well for me. I just hope that...

02:28:47.069 --> 02:28:48.489
Other people that are listening that are getting

02:28:48.489 --> 02:28:51.350
to the end of their rope or, you know, something

02:28:51.350 --> 02:28:52.950
like this could really turn their life around

02:28:52.950 --> 02:28:55.090
or, you know, save their life. So I think it's

02:28:55.090 --> 02:28:56.329
just an important message to get out there.