WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.859
This episode is sponsored by 5 .11, a company

00:00:02.859 --> 00:00:05.059
that I've used for well over a decade and continue

00:00:05.059 --> 00:00:08.539
to use to this day. And 5 .11 is offering you

00:00:08.539 --> 00:00:10.660
guys, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:13.759
a discount on every purchase you make with them.

00:00:14.179 --> 00:00:16.280
Before we get to that code, I want to highlight

00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:18.199
a couple of products that again, I personally

00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:22.120
use today. One of the most impressive products

00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.559
they just released is their Rush Backpack 2 .0.

00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:27.719
Now, for many of you, whether you're going to

00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:29.339
the fire station, the police station, whether

00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:31.320
you're traveling with your family, whether you're

00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.159
taking training courses, we have to fly, we have

00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:36.700
to drive, we have to take trains. And I have

00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:40.280
to say, I own multiple backpacks, many of 5 .11's

00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:42.520
different ones, but as far as a day pack, this

00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:45.259
one was the most impressive. There are so many

00:00:45.259 --> 00:00:47.520
different compartments. The way it sits on your

00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:49.920
back is incredibly comfortable. If you are a

00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:52.420
concealed carry person, there's also a spot for

00:00:52.420 --> 00:00:55.380
a weapon. So they've thought of multiple, multiple

00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:57.520
things that a man or woman would have to do on

00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.759
a daily basis. That is in addition to all of

00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.420
the products that I talk about a lot. Their uniforms

00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:07.319
fit for men or fit for women in the first responder

00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:09.989
professions. The footwear that they offer, whether

00:01:09.989 --> 00:01:12.390
it's the Norris sneaker or the Atlas system that

00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:15.049
is designed for foot health and therefore knees

00:01:15.049 --> 00:01:18.349
and back and hips and shoulders and neck. As

00:01:18.349 --> 00:01:20.209
a civilian, I live in a lot of their clothes

00:01:20.209 --> 00:01:22.209
as well. Their jeans stretch. You can actually

00:01:22.209 --> 00:01:24.689
squat down in them. We live in Florida here,

00:01:24.750 --> 00:01:26.750
so I wear a lot of their shorts, which again,

00:01:26.870 --> 00:01:28.730
very, very lightweight material. You can get

00:01:28.730 --> 00:01:31.510
it wet and it will dry almost immediately. And

00:01:31.510 --> 00:01:33.329
then moving to the fitness and tactical space,

00:01:33.590 --> 00:01:36.370
I used to have just a regular weight vest. Recently,

00:01:36.370 --> 00:01:38.849
I switched to a 5 .11 vest and actually bought

00:01:38.849 --> 00:01:41.569
ballistic plates as well. My thinking was simply,

00:01:41.629 --> 00:01:43.450
if I'm going to have a vest, why not have one

00:01:43.450 --> 00:01:45.730
that protects me as well? And that Tac vest is

00:01:45.730 --> 00:01:47.849
trusted by law enforcement all around the country.

00:01:48.370 --> 00:01:50.150
So I mentioned they were going to offer you a

00:01:50.150 --> 00:01:53.189
discount code. So if you go to 5 .11tactical

00:01:53.189 --> 00:01:56.769
.com and enter the code SHIELD15, S -H -I -E

00:01:56.769 --> 00:02:00.849
-L -D -1 -5, you'll get 15 % off, not just that

00:02:00.849 --> 00:02:02.969
one purchase, but every time you visit their

00:02:02.969 --> 00:02:05.540
store. And if you want to learn more about 5

00:02:05.540 --> 00:02:08.039
.11, their mission, their products, then listen

00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.219
to episode 338 of the Behind the Shield podcast

00:02:11.219 --> 00:02:15.199
with the CEO and founder, Francisco Morales.

00:02:16.330 --> 00:02:18.569
This episode is brought to you by Thorne and

00:02:18.569 --> 00:02:20.590
I have some incredible news for any of you that

00:02:20.590 --> 00:02:23.129
are in the military, first responder or medical

00:02:23.129 --> 00:02:26.330
professions. In an effort to give back, Thorne

00:02:26.330 --> 00:02:31.569
is now offering you an ongoing 35 % off each

00:02:31.569 --> 00:02:34.530
and every one of your purchases of their incredible

00:02:34.530 --> 00:02:37.389
nutritional solutions. Now Thorne is the official

00:02:37.389 --> 00:02:42.250
supplement of CrossFit, the UFC, the Mayo Clinic,

00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:45.879
the Human Performance Project. and multiple special

00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:49.020
operations organizations. I myself have used

00:02:49.020 --> 00:02:51.180
them for several years, and that is why I brought

00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:54.060
them on as a sponsor. Some of my favorite products

00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:57.159
they have are their Multivitamin Elite, their

00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:01.060
Whey Protein, the Super EPA, and then most recently,

00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:04.319
Cynaquil. As a firefighter, a stuntman, and a

00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:06.599
martial artist, I've had my share of brain trauma

00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.560
and sleep deprivation, and Cynaquil is their

00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:12.599
latest brain health supplement. Now to qualify

00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:17.259
for the 35 % off, go to thorne .com, T -H -O

00:03:17.259 --> 00:03:20.960
-R -N -E .com. Click on sign in and then create

00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.240
a new account. You will see the opportunity to

00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.580
register as a first responder or member of military.

00:03:25.900 --> 00:03:28.199
When you click on that, it will take you through

00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:32.039
verification with GovX. You'll simply choose

00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:34.520
a profession, provide one piece of documentation,

00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:37.840
and then you are verified for life. From that

00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.620
point onwards, you will continue to receive 35

00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:44.020
% off through Thorn. Now, for those of you who

00:03:44.020 --> 00:03:46.979
don't qualify, there is still the 10 % off using

00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:51.340
the code BTS. 10 behind the shield 10 for a one

00:03:51.340 --> 00:03:54.099
-time purchase now to learn more about thorn

00:03:54.099 --> 00:03:57.500
go to episode 323 of the behind the shield podcast

00:03:57.500 --> 00:04:02.680
with joel totoro and wes barnett welcome to the

00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:04.560
behind the shield podcast as always my name is

00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.699
james geering and this week it is my absolute

00:04:06.699 --> 00:04:11.110
honor to welcome on the show rob belot Now, for

00:04:11.110 --> 00:04:13.650
those of you that have seen the film Dark Waters

00:04:13.650 --> 00:04:16.949
or the documentary The Devil We Know, you will

00:04:16.949 --> 00:04:20.670
be somewhat familiar with Rob's story. In 1997,

00:04:21.089 --> 00:04:24.529
after just making partner in his law firm, he

00:04:24.529 --> 00:04:26.810
was approached by a farmer from West Virginia.

00:04:27.389 --> 00:04:30.410
Now, this farmer was losing all of his cattle

00:04:30.410 --> 00:04:33.350
to a host of diseases and was convinced that

00:04:33.350 --> 00:04:36.649
the root cause was the landfill owned by DuPont

00:04:36.649 --> 00:04:40.610
next to his farm. Rob initially took on the case

00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:42.930
thinking it was going to be a quick win, but

00:04:42.930 --> 00:04:46.649
it ended up taking over 14 years to find a resolution.

00:04:47.310 --> 00:04:49.709
Now, what is terrifying, as you will hear on

00:04:49.709 --> 00:04:52.930
this podcast, the chemicals in question are in

00:04:52.930 --> 00:04:56.689
Teflon, they're in AFFF firefighting phone, and

00:04:56.689 --> 00:04:59.949
even in our bunker gear. Now, before we get to

00:04:59.949 --> 00:05:02.149
this incredible conversation, as I say every

00:05:02.149 --> 00:05:04.189
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever

00:05:04.189 --> 00:05:07.110
app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show.

00:05:07.550 --> 00:05:10.910
leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single

00:05:10.910 --> 00:05:14.110
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

00:05:14.389 --> 00:05:16.810
therefore making it easier for others to find.

00:05:16.970 --> 00:05:21.569
And this is a free library of well over 600 episodes

00:05:21.569 --> 00:05:24.910
now. So all I ask in return is that you help

00:05:24.910 --> 00:05:27.629
share these incredible men and women's stories

00:05:27.629 --> 00:05:31.149
so I can get them to every single person on planet

00:05:31.149 --> 00:05:34.189
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

00:05:34.189 --> 00:05:38.810
said, I introduce to you... Rob Belot. Enjoy.

00:05:57.990 --> 00:06:00.350
Well, Rob, I want to start by saying firstly,

00:06:00.470 --> 00:06:04.069
thank you to Jim. for connecting us jim bernica

00:06:04.069 --> 00:06:06.470
and secondly to welcome you to the behind the

00:06:06.470 --> 00:06:09.410
shield podcast today well thanks thanks so much

00:06:09.410 --> 00:06:12.350
for having me so as we discussed right before

00:06:12.350 --> 00:06:15.269
i hit record um i heard your interview with jim

00:06:15.269 --> 00:06:19.110
i've watched um dark waters the dramatized version

00:06:19.110 --> 00:06:20.990
of what we're going to talk about today the documentary

00:06:20.990 --> 00:06:25.350
the devil we know and The relevance to the fire

00:06:25.350 --> 00:06:26.990
service community as well, I think, is important.

00:06:27.170 --> 00:06:29.350
But I mean, it's such a powerful story that needs

00:06:29.350 --> 00:06:31.870
to be heard. So I'm very, very excited for this

00:06:31.870 --> 00:06:35.170
conversation. So where on planet Earth are we

00:06:35.170 --> 00:06:39.149
finding you today? I met you. I'm actually speaking

00:06:39.149 --> 00:06:41.470
to you from my home in northern Kentucky, right

00:06:41.470 --> 00:06:44.079
across the river from Cincinnati. Beautiful.

00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:46.000
So I would love to start at the very beginning.

00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.439
Obviously, you're known for this one chapter

00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:50.180
of your life, but I kind of want to walk through

00:06:50.180 --> 00:06:52.939
to how you got there in the first place. So tell

00:06:52.939 --> 00:06:54.579
me where you were born and tell me a little bit

00:06:54.579 --> 00:06:56.199
about your family dynamic, what your parents

00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.220
did and how many siblings. Sure. You know, my

00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:02.360
dad was in the Air Force, so I was born actually

00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:06.069
in. Latham, New York, right outside of Albany,

00:07:06.230 --> 00:07:09.050
where my dad was stationed there at the time,

00:07:09.069 --> 00:07:11.870
right before he had to go off to Vietnam for

00:07:11.870 --> 00:07:15.850
a year or two. We moved around a bit as a kid,

00:07:15.949 --> 00:07:18.810
but grew up. We kind of came back and forth a

00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:21.490
lot to Wright -Patterson Air Force Base, right

00:07:21.490 --> 00:07:26.449
outside of Dayton, Ohio. So I went to high school

00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:29.670
there, graduated there, and ended up going to

00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:33.100
a small college down in Florida. New College

00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:36.300
in Sarasota, Florida, and then on to law school

00:07:36.300 --> 00:07:40.800
at Ohio State. And then after graduating there

00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:46.139
in 1990, went to the Taft Law Firm, Taft, Stettinius

00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:48.879
& Hollister in Cincinnati. And that's where I've

00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.060
been, gosh, it's going to be 32 years in September.

00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:54.540
Amazing. Well, it's a hell of a journey from

00:07:54.540 --> 00:07:56.579
being a new partner all the way to where you

00:07:56.579 --> 00:07:58.339
are now. Obviously, we'll weave through that

00:07:58.339 --> 00:08:00.399
in a little bit. Going all the way back to your

00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.779
father for a second, though, the Vietnam generation,

00:08:04.139 --> 00:08:08.240
sadly, when we look back now, were not very well

00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:10.300
taken care of. These men and women, some enlisted,

00:08:10.339 --> 00:08:13.360
some obviously were conscripted, did not get

00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.480
the ticker tape parades when they came home.

00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.560
As an older man now looking back, did you observe

00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.300
any of the kind of mental health impacts of that

00:08:22.300 --> 00:08:26.560
deployment on your father? You know, it was interesting.

00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.540
Growing up, you know, with a parent in the military,

00:08:30.819 --> 00:08:34.080
you know, we lived outside military bases. And

00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.460
we were living in communities where, gosh, it

00:08:37.460 --> 00:08:39.879
seemed like everybody, I just assumed as a kid,

00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.710
everybody's dad. you know, put a uniform on in

00:08:42.710 --> 00:08:46.990
the morning before they went to work. And really,

00:08:47.090 --> 00:08:49.870
he didn't talk about it. I didn't really hear

00:08:49.870 --> 00:08:52.610
much about it until many years later, really,

00:08:52.730 --> 00:08:55.490
when I was in high school. Just never mentioned

00:08:55.490 --> 00:08:58.070
it, never came up, you know, didn't even realize

00:08:58.070 --> 00:09:02.370
until later that. But he had been gone almost

00:09:02.370 --> 00:09:05.610
two years right after I had been born. So something

00:09:05.610 --> 00:09:08.830
he really didn't talk about much. You know, I

00:09:08.830 --> 00:09:11.529
think it was, as you can imagine, not a pleasant

00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:18.309
time. But he actually was a navigator on B -52s

00:09:18.309 --> 00:09:22.149
and fighter jets and then was an engineer and

00:09:22.149 --> 00:09:25.490
spent a lot of time in the. sort of the intelligence

00:09:25.490 --> 00:09:28.610
side of the Air Force Foreign Technology Division.

00:09:29.029 --> 00:09:32.470
And unfortunately, we lost him just last year

00:09:32.470 --> 00:09:37.309
and passed away, but just had a fascinating career.

00:09:37.409 --> 00:09:42.950
He spent over 20 years in the Air Force and actually

00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:45.580
was when I was in high school. He decided he

00:09:45.580 --> 00:09:47.679
was going to start a new career, go to law school.

00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:50.600
So that's what kind of got me motivated to look

00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:53.440
into law. He was graduating from law school about

00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:55.480
the time I was getting out of college and trying

00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:58.360
to decide what I was going to do with my career.

00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:01.220
Beautiful. Yeah, I think that's the problem we

00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:03.279
saw with that generation. And I think that's

00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.059
a lot of the statistics that we're seeing now

00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:07.879
with the suicides. You had the Vietnam generation.

00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.330
They weren't able to process what. What they

00:10:11.330 --> 00:10:12.850
went through, what they did for this country,

00:10:12.970 --> 00:10:15.970
they jumped into a career of some sort. And now,

00:10:16.009 --> 00:10:17.870
from what I understand, that generation is now

00:10:17.870 --> 00:10:20.610
retiring. And now they're away from the distractions.

00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:22.789
They're away from that purpose. And now I think

00:10:22.789 --> 00:10:24.210
a lot of those things are starting to come back.

00:10:25.570 --> 00:10:29.870
Yeah. Yeah. It's a difficult situation to deal

00:10:29.870 --> 00:10:32.509
with. That's for sure. Absolutely. Well, going

00:10:32.509 --> 00:10:34.570
back to your childhood as well, because this

00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:36.330
is obviously a pertinent part of the story as

00:10:36.330 --> 00:10:39.529
we get into it. Talk to me about. um spending

00:10:39.529 --> 00:10:41.830
time with your grandmother and being in west

00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:46.690
virginia yeah you know we would we would move

00:10:46.690 --> 00:10:49.289
around a bit but we would always end up in parkersburg

00:10:49.289 --> 00:10:52.250
as when i was a kid in west virginia my mom and

00:10:52.250 --> 00:10:55.990
her whole family was from there and so on holidays

00:10:55.990 --> 00:10:59.690
birthdays and such we would we would drive to

00:10:59.690 --> 00:11:05.100
parkersburg and spend time there. And my grandmother

00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:08.340
and my great -grandmother and grandfather, great

00:11:08.340 --> 00:11:11.139
-grandfather lived, they had a house that looked

00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:13.259
over the Ohio River. You know, you could see

00:11:13.259 --> 00:11:16.340
kind of the smokestacks of the factories along

00:11:16.340 --> 00:11:20.179
the river there and really spent a lot of time

00:11:20.179 --> 00:11:22.919
as a kid in that neighborhood, in that community.

00:11:23.710 --> 00:11:27.490
kind of saw it as sort of a hometown. So it was

00:11:27.490 --> 00:11:29.990
a place I knew well and a place that had changed

00:11:29.990 --> 00:11:33.129
a lot over the years. But, you know, I still

00:11:33.129 --> 00:11:36.509
remember folks referring to it even then when

00:11:36.509 --> 00:11:40.350
I was a kid as Cancer Alley, you know, and people

00:11:40.350 --> 00:11:43.769
having to go get their car washed when they would

00:11:43.769 --> 00:11:47.450
get a coupon from one of the local companies

00:11:47.450 --> 00:11:51.460
that was apparently it had some sort of. incident

00:11:51.460 --> 00:11:53.740
you know where stuff had gone into the air so

00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:55.639
they were going to have to go get their car washed

00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:57.620
those were the kinds of things that were just

00:11:57.620 --> 00:12:00.620
taken as normal you know and that that's that's

00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:05.480
the way it was in that community so when you

00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:07.139
look back at your childhood as we're going to

00:12:07.139 --> 00:12:11.700
get into you became you know a warrior for for

00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:14.220
good basically you know aside from many of the

00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:15.700
other people in your firm many other people in

00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:19.039
your profession You took on a fight that probably

00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.100
was career -wise maybe not the most wise initially.

00:12:23.659 --> 00:12:26.100
When you look at your upbringing, your mother,

00:12:26.179 --> 00:12:29.259
your father, where do you kind of attribute some

00:12:29.259 --> 00:12:32.700
of that altruism and some of that protector mentality

00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:37.049
that you had to lean into as you got older? Well,

00:12:37.129 --> 00:12:39.730
I think we were just taught there were things

00:12:39.730 --> 00:12:42.330
that you did and things that you did that were

00:12:42.330 --> 00:12:46.629
the right thing to do. And this particular case

00:12:46.629 --> 00:12:49.909
fit right in to that mold. These were people

00:12:49.909 --> 00:12:52.730
from what I kind of viewed as my hometown that

00:12:52.730 --> 00:12:56.350
were looking for help, that were coming to me

00:12:56.350 --> 00:13:01.830
asking, can't I help them? And I thought I could.

00:13:02.029 --> 00:13:06.220
And to me, it really wasn't. a hard decision

00:13:06.220 --> 00:13:10.500
you know to know what needed to be done and particularly

00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:13.779
as we kind of delved into this whole story and

00:13:13.779 --> 00:13:15.679
started to figure out that what we were dealing

00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:19.159
with went far beyond just one family in that

00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.460
community this was something that was impacting

00:13:21.460 --> 00:13:26.500
the entire area and then to realize It wasn't

00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:29.279
just that. This was something that could be impacting

00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.279
the whole country, if not the whole world. So

00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.419
it really, to me, was something that, at least

00:13:35.419 --> 00:13:39.159
the way I was brought up, this is something I

00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.039
needed to do, needed to help on. Beautiful. Well,

00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.700
starting on your journey into law then, I know

00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:49.399
initially you were defending corporations. So

00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:51.759
what brought you into the law firm and what made

00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.470
you choose that particular area of law? Well,

00:13:55.590 --> 00:13:57.769
you know, as I mentioned, my dad was just starting

00:13:57.769 --> 00:14:00.289
his legal career and he actually started with

00:14:00.289 --> 00:14:04.009
the attorney general's office in Ohio, then the

00:14:04.009 --> 00:14:07.370
city of Dayton as a prosecutor. And so he really

00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:10.570
hadn't had any experience at a law firm. And

00:14:10.570 --> 00:14:13.629
nobody in my family had ever been a lawyer working

00:14:13.629 --> 00:14:15.769
at a law firm. So I really didn't know what that

00:14:15.769 --> 00:14:20.049
involved. So graduating from law school, I started

00:14:20.049 --> 00:14:24.809
interviewing. And one of the firms that I met

00:14:24.809 --> 00:14:28.289
with was the TAF firm in Cincinnati. And they

00:14:28.289 --> 00:14:31.049
extended me an offer. And I noticed that they

00:14:31.049 --> 00:14:33.809
had a group that they called the Environmental

00:14:33.809 --> 00:14:37.529
Practice Group. And really not knowing what that

00:14:37.529 --> 00:14:40.350
meant, other than it triggered a memory I had

00:14:40.350 --> 00:14:42.570
of a course that I had taken in law school that

00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:44.509
I thought was interesting, environmental law.

00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.570
Something I thought was really kind of real world

00:14:47.570 --> 00:14:53.070
concrete, as opposed to tax or something like

00:14:53.070 --> 00:14:56.029
that. So, you know, I decided to join that group,

00:14:56.110 --> 00:14:59.490
really not knowing what that would entail. And

00:14:59.490 --> 00:15:02.450
that was in 1990. And at that point in time.

00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.639
A lot of what that group was doing was working

00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:10.019
with big companies, a lot of big chemical companies

00:15:10.019 --> 00:15:13.679
and other big corporate clients, really trying

00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.279
to help them navigate the kind of complex world

00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.539
of federal and state environmental rules and

00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:24.820
regulations. What are you allowed to emit into

00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:28.379
the air or into the water? How do you get permits

00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:34.559
to operate landfills? I spent eight years really

00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.519
kind of learning that system from scratch, trying

00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:40.879
to understand how all that fit together. And

00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.559
I thought I understood it fairly well, that we

00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:47.879
had this very comprehensive, complex system that

00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.299
identified the toxic, nasty stuff in our world

00:15:51.299 --> 00:15:55.220
and told us how much was safe and how much was

00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:57.759
not safe. And as long as we were abiding by those

00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.879
rules and we were doing what we needed to do.

00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:04.559
to protect the environment. And what we were

00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.419
also doing at the time was a lot of what they

00:16:08.419 --> 00:16:12.799
call superfund cleanup. In the 80s and early

00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.879
90s, there were a lot of these sites, hazardous

00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:19.279
waste, abandoned dump sites and hazardous waste

00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:22.179
sites all over the country. And we were working

00:16:22.179 --> 00:16:25.080
with our clients, negotiating with other big

00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:28.759
chemical companies. Who pays how much to clean

00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:32.059
these things up? So I had spent a lot of time

00:16:32.059 --> 00:16:34.379
meeting a lot of lawyers at the big chemical

00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:38.500
companies and working with these other companies

00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:42.220
and meeting their lawyers and really felt like

00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:45.840
I understood that world pretty well. And that

00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.659
all changed in 1998 when I got the call from

00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:52.840
Mr. Tenet in West Virginia. Well, just prior

00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.620
to that, when you think of corporations, usually

00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:58.480
it's kind of, again, a very black and white lens

00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.259
that we get. Either there's the capitalist mentality,

00:17:01.539 --> 00:17:03.480
well, it's a necessary evil, you know, you've

00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.140
got to forge ahead, you know, we're the superpower

00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:09.920
in the world. And so it's a very pro -corporate,

00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.559
you know, monopoly chasing mentality. Conversely,

00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.660
corporations are the boogeyman and they can do

00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:18.819
no right. When you boil it down, I actually heard

00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:22.160
a guru on Joe Rogan's podcast a while ago kind

00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.420
of call him out on that, calling them the bad

00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:26.940
guys. And he was implying basically that even

00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:29.940
people in there, there's a mental health element

00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:34.259
that makes you maybe deviate from what one would

00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:37.059
call ethics in pursuit of happiness maybe. So

00:17:37.059 --> 00:17:40.900
in those first eight or nine years, what was

00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:43.019
your view as far as the ethics of some of the

00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:44.579
corporations that you were working with at that

00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:50.289
point? I don't agree that you can necessarily

00:17:50.289 --> 00:17:55.329
say that everybody in the corporate world is

00:17:55.329 --> 00:17:57.630
one way, everybody on the other side is. I just

00:17:57.630 --> 00:18:00.890
really don't agree with that mindset. You're

00:18:00.890 --> 00:18:05.009
talking about folks that are trying to do the

00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:07.130
right thing. Most of the folks we were dealing

00:18:07.130 --> 00:18:09.730
with, our clients. These were people that were

00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:12.470
trying to understand the rules and the law, that

00:18:12.470 --> 00:18:14.549
were trying to do what they were required to

00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:18.049
do. You know, you may see every now and then

00:18:18.049 --> 00:18:20.410
somebody that was trying to get around it or

00:18:20.410 --> 00:18:22.750
trying to find a clever way to do this or that,

00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:26.529
but that was tended to be the exception. And,

00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:30.670
you know, that's why, you know, when I first

00:18:30.670 --> 00:18:32.730
started getting into this story and starting

00:18:32.730 --> 00:18:35.670
to see what I was seeing, I had such a hard time

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.619
actually believing. that what was happening was

00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:42.220
actually happening because that didn't track

00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:45.680
with the kind of mindset of the folks I had been

00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.539
dealing with. It wasn't the kind of behavior

00:18:48.539 --> 00:18:53.200
that I had seen. And, you know, this really was

00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.380
an aberration. You know, it wasn't the norm,

00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.380
what we were seeing here going on in West Virginia.

00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.079
So, you know, I think when you talk about companies

00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.980
or corporations, you're talking about lots of

00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:12.369
people. These companies are made up of lots of

00:19:12.369 --> 00:19:16.190
individuals and lots of people. So it's really,

00:19:16.289 --> 00:19:21.349
I think, dangerous to paint them with one brush.

00:19:21.849 --> 00:19:23.670
Yeah, well, I agree completely. I think that's

00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:26.730
what you find in so many areas, whether it's

00:19:26.730 --> 00:19:30.150
the mask conversation we had recently or whatever

00:19:30.150 --> 00:19:33.769
it is. If you create a boogeyman and create two

00:19:33.769 --> 00:19:37.170
extreme sides, nothing ever... you know, is fixed.

00:19:37.269 --> 00:19:39.789
But if you humanize it and realize maybe within

00:19:39.789 --> 00:19:41.650
an organization, there are a handful of people

00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:44.289
who are very unscrupulous. But overall, like

00:19:44.289 --> 00:19:46.690
you said, most people are going to work trying

00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:48.829
to, you know, make some money so they can feed

00:19:48.829 --> 00:19:50.269
their family and put a roof over their head.

00:19:50.309 --> 00:19:53.069
I think that's a very important kind of perspective

00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:56.230
that we need. And then, as you said, amongst

00:19:56.230 --> 00:19:59.849
that. you know, environment, if there are some

00:19:59.849 --> 00:20:01.829
bad apples, as there are in the fire service

00:20:01.829 --> 00:20:04.490
and law enforcement and the legal system, then

00:20:04.490 --> 00:20:07.789
we can identify them and laser point, you know,

00:20:07.809 --> 00:20:10.869
hone in on those individuals. Yeah. You know,

00:20:10.869 --> 00:20:13.109
in this case, I think is a dramatic example of

00:20:13.109 --> 00:20:15.349
that. This was a situation where we saw some

00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:18.990
pretty egregious. bad actors and things that

00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:21.910
were being done that were not the norm. And in

00:20:21.910 --> 00:20:24.230
fact, it's one of the reasons why our law firm,

00:20:24.329 --> 00:20:28.029
which traditionally represented big companies

00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:34.009
and big business type interests, agreed to take

00:20:34.009 --> 00:20:37.470
on this particular case. You see this kind of,

00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:39.869
I think, demonstrated in the scene in Dark Waters,

00:20:39.990 --> 00:20:42.829
where we're talking about why this is the right

00:20:42.829 --> 00:20:47.309
thing to do. I mean, because this was. bad behavior.

00:20:47.430 --> 00:20:49.970
And it wasn't the kind of thing that our clients

00:20:49.970 --> 00:20:53.910
would do or engage in. And, you know, why we

00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:57.089
felt so compelled that we needed to bring this

00:20:57.089 --> 00:21:01.150
story out and to get this fixed. Well, in true

00:21:01.150 --> 00:21:03.150
Hollywood fashion, even though this is real life,

00:21:03.329 --> 00:21:06.529
you are made a partner of the firm and almost,

00:21:06.670 --> 00:21:09.650
you know, synchronistically, a farmer walks into

00:21:09.650 --> 00:21:11.990
your legal office. So I'd love to kind of hear

00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:13.809
the backstory of that. And then we'll walk through

00:21:13.809 --> 00:21:18.500
from there. It was in 1998 where I got a call

00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:21.480
one day from a gentleman who started rattling

00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.940
on about the fact that I needed to help him figure

00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:26.720
out what was killing his cows. And this was a

00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.599
call I was about to hang up. You know, it's not

00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.460
the kind of thing that I was doing at the time.

00:21:31.579 --> 00:21:35.099
But that's when he blurted out that he had gotten

00:21:35.099 --> 00:21:37.690
my name from my grandmother. in Parkersburg.

00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:39.930
And that's when I paused and paid a little closer

00:21:39.930 --> 00:21:43.410
attention. And he started explaining how he had

00:21:43.410 --> 00:21:46.690
these animals that he was raising on a farm in

00:21:46.690 --> 00:21:50.670
West Virginia. And he was seeing white foam coming

00:21:50.670 --> 00:21:54.410
out of a landfill next to his property. And he

00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:56.450
was convinced there was something in that foam,

00:21:56.589 --> 00:21:58.910
you know, that was killing his animals, making

00:21:58.910 --> 00:22:00.990
him sick, but nobody would talk to him. Nobody

00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:04.670
would take that, take his calls. He had called

00:22:04.670 --> 00:22:08.130
the state. officials. He had called the federal

00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:10.170
officials. He had called the company that owned

00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:13.269
the landfill. He wasn't getting any answers and

00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:16.490
I needed to help him. So it's when I heard this

00:22:16.490 --> 00:22:18.589
story and I heard the connection with my grandmother,

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:22.029
I thought, you know what? I help companies get

00:22:22.029 --> 00:22:25.769
permits to run landfills like this. And particularly

00:22:25.769 --> 00:22:28.990
when he mentioned who owned the landfill, DuPont.

00:22:29.369 --> 00:22:32.769
I knew that company. DuPont was one of those

00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:35.589
companies I mentioned that we would typically,

00:22:36.269 --> 00:22:39.190
run into their lawyers at these Superfund cleanup

00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:42.730
sites all over the country. We weren't representing

00:22:42.730 --> 00:22:46.329
that company, but I knew their lawyers. We would

00:22:46.329 --> 00:22:48.750
be in the same room negotiating over who paid

00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:51.130
how much to clean up these sites. And I felt

00:22:51.130 --> 00:22:53.609
pretty confident that this was a company that

00:22:53.609 --> 00:22:56.779
understood how these rules and laws worked. There

00:22:56.779 --> 00:22:59.180
was a landfill that was emitting something above

00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:01.980
their permit limits. They would probably be able

00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:03.960
to get to the bottom of it pretty quickly. So

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.539
when I'm hearing this story and that it involved

00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:09.819
DuPont and it was a landfill, I thought, you

00:23:09.819 --> 00:23:13.119
know what? I bet I can help him. This is what

00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:15.799
I do. I help companies get these types of permits.

00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:20.309
I know DuPont. So I invited him to come on up

00:23:20.309 --> 00:23:22.750
to our office and bring whatever he had. And

00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:26.829
he and his wife drove up the three hours from

00:23:26.829 --> 00:23:29.569
West Virginia to Cincinnati. And they were armed

00:23:29.569 --> 00:23:34.309
with videotapes and photographs and came into

00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:37.890
our offices. And it just so happened that Tom

00:23:37.890 --> 00:23:40.190
Terp, who was the head of our environmental group

00:23:40.190 --> 00:23:43.710
at the time, was walking down the hall. So I

00:23:43.710 --> 00:23:46.569
invited him to come in and look at these videotapes

00:23:46.569 --> 00:23:50.490
as well. And, you know, we sat down and watched

00:23:50.490 --> 00:23:53.890
that and looked at those photographs and listened

00:23:53.890 --> 00:23:56.910
to the story. And it was pretty compelling. You

00:23:56.910 --> 00:24:00.589
know, you saw videotape of white foam coming

00:24:00.589 --> 00:24:03.269
out of the landfill marked EI DuPont de Nemours

00:24:03.269 --> 00:24:06.450
outfall. And you could see these animals standing

00:24:06.450 --> 00:24:10.670
in the foam. And he was zooming in. You could

00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:13.809
see deformities on these animals. You could see

00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:16.210
tumors. You could see they were wasting away.

00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:20.019
that there were animals that had died that he

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:23.240
had cut into. In fact, if you see the film Dark

00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:25.700
Waters or the documentary The Devil We Know,

00:24:25.900 --> 00:24:29.339
those actual videotapes are incorporated into

00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:32.400
those films that he shot. And you could see these

00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.480
deformed organs and blackened teeth. So to us,

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:37.799
it was pretty compelling. There was something

00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:39.960
in that film. There was something in that water.

00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:43.210
And we should be able to help him. But, you know,

00:24:43.230 --> 00:24:46.309
this was a case that was obviously not like something

00:24:46.309 --> 00:24:50.829
we had handled before. And, you know, we talked

00:24:50.829 --> 00:24:54.690
about it and agreed, well, it should be a fairly

00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:57.309
straightforward, simple matter. You know, this

00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:00.069
was, after all, a landfill. It's just one farm

00:25:00.069 --> 00:25:03.329
in West Virginia. And so we agreed to take that

00:25:03.329 --> 00:25:07.140
on. And that was October of 98. And it definitely

00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:11.160
did not turn out to be as simple and straightforward

00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.900
and narrow, just involving one farm that we thought.

00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.460
So the cows, obviously, you know, the actual

00:25:19.460 --> 00:25:22.859
farm itself was being affected as you kind of

00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.740
go down this journey. Talk to me about what you

00:25:25.740 --> 00:25:27.960
were discovering as far as the impact of the

00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.690
humans in the town as well. Well, you know, at

00:25:31.690 --> 00:25:34.509
this point, the only folks we were really talking

00:25:34.509 --> 00:25:37.250
to were the Tennant family, Mr. Tennant and his

00:25:37.250 --> 00:25:40.670
wife and his daughters. And, you know, they were

00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:43.250
convinced that whatever was in this foam and

00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:46.190
in this landfill wasn't just affecting the cattle.

00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.440
And it was affecting, first of all, other wildlife.

00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:51.599
There were deer in the area that were getting

00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.539
sick and dropping dead and the fish and the birds

00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:58.980
and the other animals in the area. But he also

00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:02.920
was convinced that. His family was getting sick.

00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:06.500
There would be vapor clouds that would rise up

00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:09.140
out of this landfill and blow across their property.

00:26:09.339 --> 00:26:12.140
And they were having trouble breathing and coughing

00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:17.160
and feeling sick. And so they were really concerned

00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:21.039
about their own health as well. So when we first

00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.779
took this on. We were concerned that there was

00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:27.240
something there that was not only affecting the

00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:29.859
animals, but was possibly also affecting the

00:26:29.859 --> 00:26:33.660
people as well. So when you approach DuPont,

00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.099
obviously there's a manifest of what should be

00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:39.680
in that landfill. So what was it that you discovered?

00:26:41.069 --> 00:26:44.390
Well, you know, I approached it as I as I thought

00:26:44.390 --> 00:26:47.049
you would do with any kind of regulated landfill.

00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:50.609
We started asking for the permits and we got

00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:53.490
those from the state and from also from DuPont.

00:26:53.910 --> 00:26:57.009
DuPont was more than happy to give us the documents

00:26:57.009 --> 00:27:00.289
relating to the regulated materials in that landfill

00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:03.009
and started pouring through all of that stuff.

00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:07.250
And, you know, there were materials. that were

00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:09.369
listed on the permit, you know, you had certain

00:27:09.369 --> 00:27:11.349
limits. And yeah, there were some things that

00:27:11.349 --> 00:27:13.730
were a little above the permit, but nothing really

00:27:13.730 --> 00:27:16.970
that would explain the white foam, nothing that

00:27:16.970 --> 00:27:19.890
would explain the types of impacts we were seeing

00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:23.549
in these animals. So we really weren't finding

00:27:23.549 --> 00:27:26.950
anything in those permitting materials that would

00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:29.529
explain what was going on at the landfill. It

00:27:29.529 --> 00:27:34.430
seemed to be sort of a dead end. So talk to me

00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:37.410
about the next step. You realize there's more

00:27:37.410 --> 00:27:40.009
to this. You have a hunch that something is missing.

00:27:40.369 --> 00:27:42.630
What were the next steps? And then what kind

00:27:42.630 --> 00:27:44.690
of information was then sent to your office?

00:27:45.849 --> 00:27:48.410
I started thinking about what was going on here

00:27:48.410 --> 00:27:52.210
with this landfill. And it was around the same

00:27:52.210 --> 00:27:57.029
time that we ended up getting a report from DuPont,

00:27:57.089 --> 00:28:02.180
where DuPont had early on told us, hey, no need

00:28:02.180 --> 00:28:05.500
to really get into a bunch of discovery and all

00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:07.460
of these documents, because after all, we've

00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:12.019
reached out to the US EPA, and we've put together

00:28:12.019 --> 00:28:14.839
a team of experts that are going to look at these

00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:17.619
cows and try to figure out what's really causing

00:28:17.619 --> 00:28:21.019
the problems here. And so we got this report

00:28:21.019 --> 00:28:25.599
that came in. It was in early 2000. And it essentially

00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:30.880
said, we can't find any issues that as far as

00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.980
chemicals coming out of that landfill that are

00:28:32.980 --> 00:28:35.680
affecting these animals must just be these people

00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:38.559
don't know how to raise cattle. And, you know,

00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:41.599
it was at that point I started getting a little

00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.920
suspicious and I started starting to think back,

00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:47.980
you know, about what Mr. Tennant was saying,

00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:50.940
that something was being covered up, you know,

00:28:50.940 --> 00:28:53.940
and the company was working with the state regulators

00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:57.019
and they were all in this together. And I, you

00:28:57.019 --> 00:28:59.559
know, I had a hard time. really believing any

00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:02.480
of that at first. But then when I saw this report

00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:08.240
that deviated so dramatically from what was actually

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.720
happening, you know, I'd been at that farm. I

00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.960
had seen the way these folks raised their animals.

00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:16.619
They knew how to raise cattle. They weren't abusing

00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:18.859
these animals. So I really started to wonder

00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:20.900
what was happening here? What was really going

00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:23.720
on? What's really getting into this landfill?

00:29:24.910 --> 00:29:28.609
And so I decided to reach out to DuPont and say,

00:29:28.730 --> 00:29:31.869
look, I don't want just what's regulated in your

00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:34.289
permit. I want to know everything that you're

00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:36.490
sending to that landfill, whether it's in the

00:29:36.490 --> 00:29:39.990
permit or not. Everything, because what we found

00:29:39.990 --> 00:29:43.390
out was that landfill was accepting waste from

00:29:43.390 --> 00:29:45.769
a massive manufacturing plant right down the

00:29:45.769 --> 00:29:48.509
road, right along the Ohio River. So we told

00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:50.029
them, we want to know everything you're making

00:29:50.029 --> 00:29:53.309
at that plant and what's going into this. landfill,

00:29:53.390 --> 00:29:55.329
whether it's permitted or not. And then we got

00:29:55.329 --> 00:29:59.410
a big pushback. Suddenly, the cooperative attitude

00:29:59.410 --> 00:30:03.069
we had with DuPont evaporated. No, no, no, no.

00:30:03.170 --> 00:30:07.549
This is a fishing expedition. We're not getting

00:30:07.549 --> 00:30:09.210
into all this. We had to go to court, get an

00:30:09.210 --> 00:30:13.380
order to require them to turn over. The documents.

00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.819
And when we started getting these documents and

00:30:15.819 --> 00:30:17.980
those, you know, keep in mind, this is back in

00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:21.720
early 2000. And, you know, back then, it's kind

00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.079
of really right before people started putting

00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:26.839
everything on computers and emails and disks.

00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.160
So it was paper. You know, in the films, you

00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.660
see all these boxes. We did. We got all these

00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:37.339
boxes that came in. So I started to pour through

00:30:37.339 --> 00:30:39.339
those. And I'm the kind of person I don't want

00:30:39.339 --> 00:30:42.119
somebody else to just. Go look at that. Give

00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.220
me a memo. I need to see this myself. So I started

00:30:45.220 --> 00:30:48.279
pouring through these documents myself, trying

00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:51.099
to organize them, putting them in chronological

00:30:51.099 --> 00:30:53.660
order, reading through to try to piece together

00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:59.259
what was going on here. And it was a ton of information.

00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.799
It took a long time. But what we started to piece

00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:07.119
together was there was something in that landfill.

00:31:07.789 --> 00:31:11.369
that was creating foam. It was incredibly toxic.

00:31:12.109 --> 00:31:15.950
And it wasn't on the permit. It wasn't regulated.

00:31:16.309 --> 00:31:20.849
Yet it could have devastating impacts, not only

00:31:20.849 --> 00:31:25.049
on cows and wildlife, but also on human health.

00:31:25.309 --> 00:31:28.569
And so what we discovered was something that

00:31:28.569 --> 00:31:31.750
led us down a path where we now realize this

00:31:31.750 --> 00:31:35.069
same chemical is unfortunately now impacting

00:31:35.069 --> 00:31:38.569
the entire globe. What was the chemical that

00:31:38.569 --> 00:31:42.549
you discovered? What we found was there was a

00:31:42.549 --> 00:31:47.029
chemical that DuPont had been using in the manufacture

00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:51.250
of Teflon. This manufacturing plant I mentioned

00:31:51.250 --> 00:31:53.450
along the Ohio River just happened to be the

00:31:53.450 --> 00:31:55.789
world's largest Teflon manufacturing facility.

00:31:56.549 --> 00:32:00.329
In the manufacture of Teflon, DuPont had been

00:32:00.329 --> 00:32:05.500
purchasing a chemical. called PFOA, perfluorooctanoic

00:32:05.500 --> 00:32:09.220
acid, a chemical that has eight carbons attached

00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:12.940
to fluorine. So they also called it C8. DuPont

00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:15.359
had been buying this stuff from the 3M company

00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:20.200
up in Minnesota since as early as 1951 and using

00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:24.019
massive quantities of this chemical as a manufacturing

00:32:24.019 --> 00:32:27.599
aid in the process for making Teflon. And in

00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:31.180
that process, this chemical was emitted into

00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:35.099
the air it was discharged into into the ohio

00:32:35.099 --> 00:32:38.799
river and liquid sludges were dumped into unlined

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.160
pits all around the property and keep in mind

00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.400
you know this is beginning in the early 1950s

00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.359
1960s in massive quantities it's decades before

00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:53.799
the uscpa even existed you know uscpa wasn't

00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:57.640
formed until 1970. some of the first laws rules

00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:01.279
regulations about evaluating toxicity of chemicals

00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:04.440
rolled out in the late 70s. So this stuff starts

00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.460
rolling down to Parkersburg decades before in

00:33:07.460 --> 00:33:10.119
massive quantities going into the air, into the

00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:14.079
water, into these unlined landfills. And what

00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.579
we saw when we started getting into these documents

00:33:16.579 --> 00:33:20.359
was, even though it predated the EPA and the

00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:26.009
regulations, DuPont itself in 3M. had been studying

00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:28.630
this chemical because of its unique chemical

00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:31.890
structure. This stuff never existed on the planet

00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:35.269
prior to being invented by 3M, right around the

00:33:35.269 --> 00:33:38.549
time of World War II. And it had this unique

00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:41.490
chemical structure of carbons attached to fluorine,

00:33:41.549 --> 00:33:44.230
which made it really useful in manufacturing

00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:47.970
processes like DuPont's Teflon process, but it

00:33:47.970 --> 00:33:51.319
also made it incredibly strong. and resistant

00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.599
to breaking down. The companies understood early

00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.859
on that if it got out into the environment, it

00:33:57.859 --> 00:34:01.440
wouldn't break down. This stuff wouldn't biodegrade.

00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:04.059
In fact, in later years, we even had scientists

00:34:04.059 --> 00:34:08.760
tell us, they talk about the life of these chemicals

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.719
in geologic timescales. It would take thousands,

00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:14.619
if not millions, of years for this chemical to

00:34:14.619 --> 00:34:18.630
start to break down on its own. So the company's

00:34:18.630 --> 00:34:20.829
realizing this stuff, when it gets out there,

00:34:20.909 --> 00:34:23.170
is going to stay almost forever. That's why you

00:34:23.170 --> 00:34:25.929
hear me refer to now as forever chemicals. They

00:34:25.929 --> 00:34:27.949
started evaluating the toxicity of it in the

00:34:27.949 --> 00:34:30.610
60s. And they started finding this stuff was

00:34:30.610 --> 00:34:33.889
incredibly toxic. It had all kinds of toxic effects

00:34:33.889 --> 00:34:36.489
and multiple different animal species that were

00:34:36.489 --> 00:34:40.489
being tested. And by the 1980s, they'd even found

00:34:40.489 --> 00:34:43.719
that it caused cancer. They actually had done

00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:46.699
rat studies and found that the chemical caused

00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:49.079
testicular tumors in the rats. This is in the

00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.159
1980s. By the early 90s, they had done a second

00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.400
study confirming the testicular tumors and also

00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:59.019
liver and pancreatic tumors. DuPont had internally

00:34:59.019 --> 00:35:02.880
classified the chemical as a confirmed animal

00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.300
carcinogen, possible human carcinogen in the

00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:09.369
80s. And so they had actually gone out and started

00:35:09.369 --> 00:35:11.489
looking for this stuff because they knew they

00:35:11.489 --> 00:35:13.469
were emitting it into the air and into the water.

00:35:13.570 --> 00:35:16.869
They knew they had public water well supply fields

00:35:16.869 --> 00:35:19.630
right downstream in West Virginia, on the West

00:35:19.630 --> 00:35:22.469
Virginia side, and right across the river the

00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:26.369
way the air flowed. In Ohio, there were public

00:35:26.369 --> 00:35:28.570
water well fields. So they went out and collected

00:35:28.570 --> 00:35:31.269
drinking water samples secretly in the 80s and

00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:33.269
found that the chemical was in drinking water

00:35:33.269 --> 00:35:36.599
in Ohio and West Virginia. but didn't tell anybody

00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:40.400
because it was not regulated. Because by the

00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.719
time they were doing this, these laws and rules

00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.380
had rolled out, but those laws and rules really

00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.440
focused on new chemicals being made from that

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.679
point going forward. For things that were already

00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:57.320
out there, like PFOA, the laws essentially said

00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.019
it was up to the companies making or using those

00:36:00.019 --> 00:36:03.039
to alert the EPA if there was some substantial

00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.829
risk to human health or the environment. that

00:36:05.829 --> 00:36:08.170
required them to go back and look at. Well, what

00:36:08.170 --> 00:36:10.650
we were seeing in these documents, they were

00:36:10.650 --> 00:36:13.469
doing all these studies, finding all these toxic

00:36:13.469 --> 00:36:16.130
effects, carcinogenic effects, but the companies

00:36:16.130 --> 00:36:19.769
were deciding not to tell the EPA, even after

00:36:19.769 --> 00:36:22.309
they found it in the drinking water. Then the

00:36:22.309 --> 00:36:25.469
company actually came up with its own internal

00:36:25.469 --> 00:36:28.610
drinking water standard for the stuff, no more

00:36:28.610 --> 00:36:32.130
than 0 .6 parts per billion, which they rounded

00:36:32.130 --> 00:36:36.030
up to one. which was essentially the lowest you

00:36:36.030 --> 00:36:39.369
could detect it in the water at the time. And

00:36:39.369 --> 00:36:42.449
they go out and the sampling, what they're finding

00:36:42.449 --> 00:36:44.530
in the water supplies is four to five times that.

00:36:44.909 --> 00:36:49.769
So what we saw in this whole story as we're piecing

00:36:49.769 --> 00:36:51.489
it together, I'm reading all these documents,

00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:54.170
is that's how this stuff ended up in the landfill

00:36:54.170 --> 00:36:57.269
next to Mr. Tennant in Parkersburg. Because DuPont

00:36:57.269 --> 00:37:00.840
thought this stuff was leaking. into the ground

00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.320
from the sludge they had dumped into these unlined

00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:05.699
pits at their property. So they went out and

00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:11.179
dug up all this sludge, 7 ,000 tons of PFOA -soaked

00:37:11.179 --> 00:37:14.719
sludge. And because it was still technically

00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:18.360
unregulated, they took it and dumped it into

00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:22.019
an unlined, non -hazardous waste landfill, the

00:37:22.019 --> 00:37:24.320
landfill right next to Mr. Tennant's property.

00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:29.000
And it started seeping out into the creek. And

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.059
sure enough, when it hits, you know, when the

00:37:31.059 --> 00:37:33.699
rain hits it and it hits the water, it foams.

00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:37.280
DuPont went out and actually tested the water

00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:42.639
in the creek in 1990, eight years before Mr.

00:37:42.820 --> 00:37:45.360
Tennant came to me. And they had found levels

00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.260
in the creek. Remember, their internal guideline

00:37:47.260 --> 00:37:49.599
was one part per billion. They found a thousand

00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:53.090
parts per billion in the creek. And even speculated,

00:37:53.090 --> 00:37:55.409
what would this do to cows? So they hadn't told

00:37:55.409 --> 00:37:57.969
Mr. Tenet, but they knew what was going on. So

00:37:57.969 --> 00:38:01.949
needless to say, by the time we pieced this together,

00:38:02.210 --> 00:38:05.469
I was able to make a phone call to the folks

00:38:05.469 --> 00:38:08.530
at DuPont and we settled Mr. Tenet's case. But

00:38:08.530 --> 00:38:11.010
at that point, we realized we were dealing with

00:38:11.010 --> 00:38:13.869
a much bigger problem. And Mr. Tenet was very

00:38:13.869 --> 00:38:16.449
worried because what we were seeing was this

00:38:16.449 --> 00:38:20.210
stuff. was in the public's drinking water in

00:38:20.210 --> 00:38:23.510
Ohio and West Virginia at levels above what the

00:38:23.510 --> 00:38:27.369
company itself said was appropriate. No one had

00:38:27.369 --> 00:38:30.570
been told. The regulators didn't know. The public

00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:34.250
didn't know. So at that point, we realized we

00:38:34.250 --> 00:38:37.409
had a huge public health threat on our hands

00:38:37.409 --> 00:38:40.449
that had gone unrecognized, and we might be the

00:38:40.449 --> 00:38:44.980
only ones who knew this outside of DuPont. I

00:38:44.980 --> 00:38:47.500
mean, firstly, thank you for bringing us up to

00:38:47.500 --> 00:38:49.460
that point. I mean, there's so much to digest

00:38:49.460 --> 00:38:53.420
just there. But then I think in the film and

00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:56.280
certainly in the documentary, you hear about

00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:59.239
3M. doing research and finding that there was

00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:02.119
an effect on the fetuses in the rat experiments

00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.179
where it was deforming the eyes. So you meet

00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:08.420
a young man, Bucky Bailey. So talk to me again

00:39:08.420 --> 00:39:12.159
about what you started to see as the actual ill

00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:14.599
health of the residents of that town in West

00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:18.300
Virginia. Yeah, excuse me. What was particularly

00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:21.039
disturbing, you know, going through these documents

00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.980
was to see what, not only what the companies

00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:26.099
had known, you know, about the health effects

00:39:26.099 --> 00:39:28.880
of this stuff in all these laboratory animals,

00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:32.179
but to see what had been known about its impacts

00:39:32.179 --> 00:39:35.320
on humans. You know, as you mentioned, one of

00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:38.679
the very first studies. that had come down actually

00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:42.500
from 3M was finding birth defects in the eyes

00:39:42.500 --> 00:39:45.039
of baby rats who were exposed to this chemical.

00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:48.719
And when they notified their customer, DuPont,

00:39:48.820 --> 00:39:52.679
who had been purchasing this stuff, DuPont set

00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:57.630
up a study to look at the children. born to women

00:39:57.630 --> 00:40:00.389
who were exposed to this chemical on the Teflon

00:40:00.389 --> 00:40:04.789
mines in West Virginia. And actually, what they

00:40:04.789 --> 00:40:06.989
found was there had been seven children born.

00:40:07.289 --> 00:40:10.550
Two of them, two of the seven had eye defects.

00:40:11.090 --> 00:40:14.929
One of those was Bucky Bailey, a young man who

00:40:14.929 --> 00:40:18.150
you see in the films, in the documentary, and

00:40:18.150 --> 00:40:20.989
in Dark Waters. He was gracious enough to come

00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:26.360
and do a cameo in the film as well. But These

00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:30.739
were real people, real children being exposed

00:40:30.739 --> 00:40:34.780
to these chemicals. The fact that the company

00:40:34.780 --> 00:40:39.059
had this data showing this was happening, not

00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:42.579
just in rats, but that two out of seven women,

00:40:42.780 --> 00:40:45.920
human babies, had been experiencing the same

00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.519
issue. That study was never finalized, never

00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:51.940
published, never sent to the government agencies.

00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.280
And the people were never told this. It didn't

00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:59.380
come out until years later. So that was the kind

00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:01.980
of information that we felt was necessary to

00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:04.960
get out to the public, get out to the regulators.

00:41:05.139 --> 00:41:07.079
Most importantly, get out to the people who are

00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.340
exposed, the people at the plant, the people

00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:12.889
in that community. who were breathing this, drinking

00:41:12.889 --> 00:41:16.730
this, being exposed to it on a daily basis and

00:41:16.730 --> 00:41:19.969
had no idea. We're just circling around to the

00:41:19.969 --> 00:41:21.849
ethics if we don't already need to underline

00:41:21.849 --> 00:41:25.289
the lack of in this conversation so far. Talk

00:41:25.289 --> 00:41:28.949
to me about the experiment they did with some

00:41:28.949 --> 00:41:31.849
of the workers and the cigarettes with the PFAS

00:41:31.849 --> 00:41:35.280
and the other chemicals. Well, one of the early

00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:39.000
studies that we uncovered was a document that

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.500
was indicating that at one point, this is in

00:41:41.500 --> 00:41:43.500
the early 60s, and you have to remember that

00:41:43.500 --> 00:41:48.340
it was around 1961, 1962, that DuPont starts

00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:52.320
commercializing Teflon. It starts going out on

00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.780
pans, starts going out into the consumer market.

00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:59.380
And it was around that period of time that there

00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:03.139
was a study indicating that workers were given.

00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:07.800
cigarettes that had teflon um you know the actual

00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:11.579
material on the ends of the cigarettes um and

00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:13.980
you know they were asked to report what happened

00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:16.460
you know when this was heated up and what you

00:42:16.460 --> 00:42:20.460
see is basically what's called teflon flu or

00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:24.000
the polymer fume fever that when you heat this

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.480
material It creates this gas, this off -gassing

00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.840
that creates flu -like symptoms. And in fact,

00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:35.460
for years, if you had gone on the DuPont website,

00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:38.480
there would be disclosures, you know, about do

00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:42.480
not overheat your Teflon pan. Don't keep birds

00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.880
in the kitchen near your pan. You know how you

00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:47.960
always hear the story of canaries in the coal

00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:49.719
mine, you know, because they have such sensitive

00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:54.659
lungs. Well, you have, unfortunately. well -documented

00:42:54.659 --> 00:42:58.679
cases where birds that were in kitchens where

00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:02.039
this Teflon material was overheated would be

00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:06.400
seriously impacted by these fumes. So you even

00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:09.500
had situations at the DuPont plant where they

00:43:09.500 --> 00:43:14.619
even had bird crews where birds flying over the

00:43:14.619 --> 00:43:17.639
smokestacks would drop out of the sky as this

00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.320
stuff was heated and got into the air. So it

00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:26.659
was unfortunately, a well -documented phenomenon,

00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:29.760
you know, that this stuff could have these effects

00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:33.519
on people. So there's a scene in the film as

00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:35.800
well when you're trying to bring this to court

00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:38.840
and that one part per billion is suddenly changed

00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:42.539
by an expert in that courtroom. So if you wouldn't

00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:44.820
mind kind of walk me through that and then let's

00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:46.460
talk about, you know, obviously there was that

00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:49.760
one settlement, but how this became a multifaceted

00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:53.619
approach. And there was a point in time where,

00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:55.780
you know, I mentioned that DuPont had its own

00:43:55.780 --> 00:43:58.820
internal drinking water guidelines that they

00:43:58.820 --> 00:44:01.659
had developed in the 1980s. You know, no more

00:44:01.659 --> 00:44:04.420
than 0 .6 parts per billion, which they rounded

00:44:04.420 --> 00:44:07.619
up to one part per billion. And when we finally

00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:10.000
figured out what was happening here and we had

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.599
made the decision to try to bring claims on behalf

00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:16.199
of the whole community through a class action

00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:19.360
lawsuit to get people clean water and medical

00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:24.889
testing. We really based that lawsuit on the

00:44:24.889 --> 00:44:27.949
fact that this stuff was in the water above DuPont's

00:44:27.949 --> 00:44:30.909
own guideline. Because remember, there were no

00:44:30.909 --> 00:44:33.309
state or federal guidelines for this chemical

00:44:33.309 --> 00:44:35.530
since the regulators didn't even know about it.

00:44:35.769 --> 00:44:40.429
So as soon as we filed that, DuPont, realizing

00:44:40.429 --> 00:44:43.090
this whole case hinged on their own internal

00:44:43.090 --> 00:44:46.210
one part per billion guideline. tried to create

00:44:46.210 --> 00:44:49.690
a way to come up with a higher number, one that

00:44:49.690 --> 00:44:52.829
was a, quote, government -approved standard.

00:44:53.849 --> 00:44:57.670
So they entered into a deal. They negotiated

00:44:57.670 --> 00:45:00.230
a deal with the state of West Virginia's EPA

00:45:00.230 --> 00:45:04.489
to create another team, kind of like what they

00:45:04.489 --> 00:45:06.809
had done with the cattle team before with US

00:45:06.809 --> 00:45:10.610
EPA. They would set up this team. And of course,

00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:13.349
DuPont's own scientists would be on the team.

00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:16.440
And they would come up with this new number.

00:45:16.900 --> 00:45:21.159
And it was quite amazing. The science didn't

00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:24.619
change. There was no new data. All that happened

00:45:24.619 --> 00:45:28.179
was a new process was set up where the DuPont

00:45:28.179 --> 00:45:31.239
folks, DuPont consultants, and then people brought

00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:34.159
in from the state were to announce a new number.

00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:39.239
And they did that. In May of 2002, they made

00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:42.099
this announcement. As if it was a government

00:45:42.099 --> 00:45:44.099
number, they came out and said the new number

00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:48.500
was 150 parts per billion, which was outrageous.

00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:52.400
And years later, of course, everybody rejected.

00:45:53.300 --> 00:45:57.880
But that was the announcement that was made to

00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:00.179
try to reassure the public everything is fine

00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:03.659
here. And DuPont never changed its own internal

00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:07.300
number. Their own scientists didn't even accept

00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:11.780
that. Yeah, it's crazy. So with that, you know,

00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:14.360
obviously move forward with the case as we kind

00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:15.820
of follow through in the film or documentary,

00:46:15.980 --> 00:46:20.519
you start learning of, you know, the dental impacts

00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:23.739
on the community, tumors, cancers, deaths. So

00:46:23.739 --> 00:46:27.420
as this slowly unfold and your kind of perspective

00:46:27.420 --> 00:46:30.000
gets wider and wider, what were you starting

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:33.000
to see as far as the impact on the residents

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.659
of that town and especially the people that were

00:46:35.659 --> 00:46:39.320
working in the plant? Well, you know, as we learned

00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:43.579
more about the chemical and what was known internally,

00:46:43.699 --> 00:46:46.039
as we got more documents, more studies, more

00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:48.739
history of what the companies knew, not only

00:46:48.739 --> 00:46:51.019
were we seeing that there had been a number of

00:46:51.019 --> 00:46:53.840
studies of the workers, you know, and those studies

00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:56.340
among the workers were showing increased cancer

00:46:56.340 --> 00:47:00.860
rates, liver enzyme impacts, other issues that

00:47:00.860 --> 00:47:03.980
were being investigated. What we also then were

00:47:03.980 --> 00:47:05.699
learning, of course, were people were coming

00:47:05.699 --> 00:47:09.460
forward from the community. with stories of cancers

00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:13.599
and other health impacts and teeth issues. And

00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:16.820
it wasn't just the people, it was the pets. There

00:47:16.820 --> 00:47:19.719
were stories of an incredible amount of tumors

00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.960
and cancers among cats and dogs in the area.

00:47:23.260 --> 00:47:29.960
So it really became pretty powerful evidence

00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:33.239
coming forward that something was going on in

00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.300
this community that was not normal. that the

00:47:35.300 --> 00:47:38.519
health impacts here seem to be pretty severe.

00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:40.860
So it was something we really wanted to make

00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:44.039
sure we understood, which was exactly what can

00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:47.519
this chemical do to people, you know, and how

00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.579
much of what we were hearing was related to this

00:47:51.579 --> 00:47:56.260
chemical. Now another, you know, one of the through

00:47:56.260 --> 00:48:00.380
lines in the story is that dichotomy between

00:48:00.380 --> 00:48:04.480
wanting to fight this kind of, you know, this

00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.320
cancer -causing element, but also DuPont being

00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.840
the primary employer in the town. So what was

00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:13.460
your observation of that tension? I mean, I know

00:48:13.460 --> 00:48:15.500
it seems like from the films that some of the

00:48:15.500 --> 00:48:19.400
people that stuck their neck out to, I hate the

00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:21.780
word whistleblower, but to advocate for everyone

00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:24.679
else also got demonized in their own community.

00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.239
Yeah, it's an incredibly difficult situation

00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:33.159
to be in. You're in a community where This particular

00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:38.179
company is revered as a great employer, a great

00:48:38.179 --> 00:48:41.519
patron of the local community and the community

00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:45.159
groups and helping with funding. A lot of folks

00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:47.880
either work there themselves or they have family

00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:50.000
that work there or they know somebody that works

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:52.880
there. It's an integral part of that community.

00:48:53.139 --> 00:48:56.219
To suggest that something this bad could be happening,

00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:58.739
a lot of people just don't want to hear it. They

00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:00.929
don't want to believe it. They don't want to

00:49:00.929 --> 00:49:04.170
think that something like that can be happening.

00:49:04.369 --> 00:49:09.030
They want to hope that it's wrong. In fact, when

00:49:09.030 --> 00:49:11.070
we finally got to the point where we were setting

00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:14.690
up these big health studies, we ended up getting

00:49:14.690 --> 00:49:18.949
69 ,000 people within a community estimated to

00:49:18.949 --> 00:49:22.469
be 70 ,000 who came forward and provided blood

00:49:22.469 --> 00:49:25.469
and provided health data. A lot of those people

00:49:25.469 --> 00:49:28.699
who came forward came forward hoping it would

00:49:28.699 --> 00:49:31.559
help prove that there wasn't a problem, that

00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:35.219
this hadn't really been as bad as people were

00:49:35.219 --> 00:49:38.280
saying, that there weren't health effects associated

00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:45.260
with this. It's understandable. It was a very

00:49:45.260 --> 00:49:47.619
difficult thing for the folks that stood up.

00:49:47.929 --> 00:49:50.349
And we're wanting to make sure this was pushed

00:49:50.349 --> 00:49:53.449
forward. You see some of that depicted in the

00:49:53.449 --> 00:49:56.289
films, you know, the pushback that these people,

00:49:56.409 --> 00:49:59.309
unfortunately, the folks like the Tennant family

00:49:59.309 --> 00:50:03.190
or the Kigers, you know, had to endure. as this

00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:06.550
story was unfolding. It continues to this day,

00:50:06.610 --> 00:50:11.090
by the way. There's still great loyalty to the

00:50:11.090 --> 00:50:16.030
company. You're dealing with a situation where

00:50:16.030 --> 00:50:20.849
it's difficult to find employment and you've

00:50:20.849 --> 00:50:26.010
got good -paying jobs. And you've got a lot of

00:50:26.010 --> 00:50:28.269
folks, I still remember when a researcher came

00:50:28.269 --> 00:50:30.469
out to the community and asked folks, this is

00:50:30.469 --> 00:50:33.570
after all of this story finally came out, people

00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:36.090
finally realized what had really happened here,

00:50:36.150 --> 00:50:39.210
that this did happen, that this poisoning occurred

00:50:39.210 --> 00:50:42.210
for decades. And you still had people saying,

00:50:42.369 --> 00:50:45.010
well, you know, you got to die of something.

00:50:45.190 --> 00:50:47.190
So what's cancer? At least I had a good job.

00:50:48.030 --> 00:50:52.190
That type of mindset and attitude, unfortunately,

00:50:52.409 --> 00:50:56.769
still prevails in a lot of folks who honestly

00:50:56.769 --> 00:51:00.969
believe that that's the trade -off, that that's

00:51:00.969 --> 00:51:05.110
fair for them to accept that they might get cancer

00:51:05.110 --> 00:51:09.050
in order to get a good job. It's a really difficult

00:51:09.050 --> 00:51:13.010
situation in communities like this. When I think

00:51:13.010 --> 00:51:15.309
of West Virginia, sadly, one of the things that

00:51:15.309 --> 00:51:18.380
pops in my mind is the opioid crisis. When you

00:51:18.380 --> 00:51:22.280
take away mines, when you take away steel mills,

00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.039
whatever the industry is that goes overseas,

00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:27.360
you are left with a giant void. Do you think

00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:29.420
there was an element of watching surrounding

00:51:29.420 --> 00:51:32.159
towns and cities go through that kind of crisis

00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:35.099
that kept people clinging on to DuPont so loyally?

00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:38.920
I'm sure it's a combination of all kinds of things

00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:43.000
like that. Again, you're in a community that...

00:51:44.300 --> 00:51:46.519
You know, these are some of the best paying jobs,

00:51:46.699 --> 00:51:49.719
some of the most stable jobs and really, you

00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.199
know, gives the community identity. If you drive

00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:55.599
through this area, you'll see signs that say,

00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.780
you know, welcome to the polymer alliance zone,

00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:01.679
you know, or the chemical alliance. I mean, this

00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:04.519
is a matter of pride that these companies are

00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:06.800
there and that these products are being manufactured

00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:10.619
there. And, you know, people want to keep them

00:52:10.619 --> 00:52:14.679
there. And, you know, you see that tension building

00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:18.840
up again now as DuPont, you know, has spun off

00:52:18.840 --> 00:52:21.500
this whole Teflon business into a new company

00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:24.300
called Chemours. And what was left of DuPont

00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:26.659
merged with Dow and a split into other companies

00:52:26.659 --> 00:52:29.119
and plants are closing and workers are being

00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:32.139
laid off. There's a real concern, you know, that

00:52:32.139 --> 00:52:34.679
what's going to happen to these jobs now. You

00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:41.079
know, and it's a continuing issue. And one, I

00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:42.880
think it's going to continue for a long time.

00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.400
Now, again, another through line that's evident

00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:49.179
in the film is the stress on you and your family.

00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.300
So you're fighting this battle. There seems to

00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:54.179
be no end in sight. Talk to me about, you know,

00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:56.559
your mental health journey as you are trying

00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:00.760
to fight this behemoth that is DuPont. You know,

00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.840
it was definitely a stressful. uh situation and

00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:06.920
you see that in the film and i talk about it

00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.199
in in a lot of detail in the book exposure you

00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.980
know just um what that was like during those

00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:17.679
periods of time you know because it's um you

00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:20.400
have to remember we didn't know what the outcome

00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:23.630
was going to be we didn't know how these processes

00:53:23.630 --> 00:53:25.909
would work. You know, we didn't know whether

00:53:25.909 --> 00:53:29.190
this class action lawsuit would prevail. I mean,

00:53:29.190 --> 00:53:31.409
these were sort of innovative issues we were

00:53:31.409 --> 00:53:34.050
pursuing at the time. When we set up these big

00:53:34.050 --> 00:53:36.130
health studies, you know, with tens of thousands

00:53:36.130 --> 00:53:39.110
of people, nobody had really ever done that before.

00:53:39.190 --> 00:53:42.130
We had no idea how long this would take. You

00:53:42.130 --> 00:53:44.769
know, and as it ended up, it stretched out six,

00:53:44.969 --> 00:53:48.230
seven years. And in the meantime, you know, people

00:53:48.230 --> 00:53:50.630
are continuing to get sick. People are being

00:53:50.630 --> 00:53:53.489
diagnosed. People are dying. And you're hearing

00:53:53.489 --> 00:53:55.710
those stories. I'm getting those phone calls.

00:53:55.829 --> 00:53:58.329
You see a little bit of that in the film. You

00:53:58.329 --> 00:54:00.829
know, I'm getting calls from folks, you know,

00:54:00.829 --> 00:54:04.489
that's what's going on. Why is this taking so

00:54:04.489 --> 00:54:08.590
long? You know, and at the same time, you have

00:54:08.590 --> 00:54:11.429
to remember. what period of time this was occurring.

00:54:11.610 --> 00:54:16.710
This was happening during 2008, 2011. The economy

00:54:16.710 --> 00:54:19.989
was imploding back then. We were in a massive

00:54:19.989 --> 00:54:23.329
economic meltdown. People were losing their jobs.

00:54:23.650 --> 00:54:28.409
To be working on something like this where we

00:54:28.409 --> 00:54:30.550
didn't know what the outcome was going to be.

00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:35.260
so many people depending on you and realizing

00:54:35.260 --> 00:54:39.420
this was something that could impact not just

00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:41.880
all the people in this community, but worldwide.

00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:45.539
At this point, we realized this chemical was

00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:49.019
a part of a family of chemicals we now call PFAS,

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:53.219
P -F -A -S. PFOA was just one of hundreds, if

00:54:53.219 --> 00:54:55.820
not thousands, of these chemicals, these man

00:54:55.820 --> 00:55:00.300
-made toxins that were now, we realized, in products

00:55:00.300 --> 00:55:03.599
all over the place, not just Teflon, but stain

00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:06.539
-resistant waterproof clothing, carpeting, fast

00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:09.519
food wrappers and packaging, firefighter foam,

00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.159
computer chips, cosmetics. And they weren't just

00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:15.699
used with DuPont. It was in other places all

00:55:15.699 --> 00:55:18.960
over. And this stuff, we were realizing, because

00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.719
sampling had been going on, was being found in

00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:25.320
drinking water all over the United States and

00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:27.900
in other places of the world. And most importantly,

00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.780
The chemicals were being found in the blood of

00:55:31.780 --> 00:55:35.019
almost every person on the planet. It was being

00:55:35.019 --> 00:55:38.579
found in 99 % of the humans that were being tested.

00:55:38.780 --> 00:55:42.440
So we realized how important this science was

00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:45.719
going to be, how important the outcome of this

00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:49.179
process was. And to kind of have the weight of

00:55:49.179 --> 00:55:53.199
that, knowing we've got to make sure that this...

00:55:53.579 --> 00:55:56.559
is seen through to its conclusion that the scientists

00:55:56.559 --> 00:55:59.500
aren't compromised, that this process, you know,

00:55:59.500 --> 00:56:02.239
isn't derailed, that we get to the end point

00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:05.119
because, you know, there's public health issues

00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:07.860
riding on it. So that was a lot of stress, a

00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:12.719
lot of, you know, a lot of things to be juggling.

00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:17.900
And we were fortunate that it turned out that

00:56:17.900 --> 00:56:21.199
the science. did come out that these these health

00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:24.079
effects were able to be confirmed uh it took

00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:28.159
a long time uh but you know it's we've learned

00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:31.320
a lot from that process but um you know i don't

00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.960
know how we could have done it frankly any different

00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:37.579
at this point so it seems to be clear from again

00:56:37.579 --> 00:56:39.940
from the story i know sadly mr tennant and his

00:56:39.940 --> 00:56:44.380
wife both came to cancer but it didn't seem like

00:56:44.380 --> 00:56:46.780
he was chasing the money, he was chasing justice.

00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:49.659
So talk to me about what was finally, you know,

00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:54.280
the judgment, the result, and then what should

00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:56.159
have happened, the perfect world, what, as far

00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:58.480
as accountability, should have happened to the

00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.420
company and the people responsible for this particular

00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:04.880
element? Yeah, you know, as you mentioned, unfortunately,

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:08.599
Mr. Tennant and his wife passed away before the

00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:13.860
scientific findings were confirmed. The scientific

00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:16.599
process we've been talking about that lasted

00:57:16.599 --> 00:57:18.860
all these years and involved tens of thousands

00:57:18.860 --> 00:57:22.300
of people, it finally wrapped up in 2012. And

00:57:22.300 --> 00:57:24.880
at the end of that process, we were able to confirm

00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:28.000
that PFOA, just one of these PFOS chemicals,

00:57:28.219 --> 00:57:32.599
was linked with six different diseases. Testicular

00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:35.559
cancer was one of them. Now remember, we saw

00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:39.019
that in the rats in the 80s. But DuPont and 3M

00:57:39.019 --> 00:57:41.480
had been denying that that was related to humans.

00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:44.360
So we had to go through all of this to finally

00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:46.440
confirm what had already been in those documents

00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.300
for decades. But anyway, we were able to confirm

00:57:49.300 --> 00:57:52.460
that the PFOA was linked with causing testicular

00:57:52.460 --> 00:57:56.920
cancer, kidney cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid

00:57:56.920 --> 00:58:00.260
disease, preeclampsia, and high cholesterol.

00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:03.679
And once those findings were confirmed, again,

00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:06.630
with these independent scientists, That triggered

00:58:06.630 --> 00:58:09.949
a huge cascade of events. That finally prompted

00:58:09.949 --> 00:58:13.809
the US EPA to go out and start looking for this

00:58:13.809 --> 00:58:18.750
chemical and the related chemical PFOS in drinking

00:58:18.750 --> 00:58:22.230
water across the country. You know, PFOA, as

00:58:22.230 --> 00:58:25.809
I mentioned, was a C8 that 3M had made. 3M had

00:58:25.809 --> 00:58:28.670
also been making this very closely related chemical

00:58:28.670 --> 00:58:33.610
called PFOS, famously used in things like Scotchgard

00:58:33.610 --> 00:58:37.400
or firefighting foams. So when the data came

00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:41.300
out on PFOA, US EPA, realizing these two chemicals

00:58:41.300 --> 00:58:43.420
were very closely related, started going out

00:58:43.420 --> 00:58:47.179
and saying, let's see if this chemical is a nationally

00:58:47.179 --> 00:58:49.719
occurring drinking water issue. Because if so,

00:58:49.940 --> 00:58:52.519
we'll start the process to regulate it. So they

00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:54.519
started going out and sampling. And sure enough,

00:58:54.579 --> 00:58:56.760
these chemicals were starting to be found all

00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:59.179
over the country. Because one of the things that

00:58:59.179 --> 00:59:02.409
happened was people started realizing. These

00:59:02.409 --> 00:59:05.050
chemicals, particularly PFOS, have been used

00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:08.829
in firefighting foam. And the firefighting foam,

00:59:09.030 --> 00:59:12.530
AFFF, aqueous film forming foam, this type of

00:59:12.530 --> 00:59:14.750
foam had been used to combat petroleum fires.

00:59:14.969 --> 00:59:17.190
Well, that stuff had been sprayed for decades

00:59:17.190 --> 00:59:21.389
outside of airports, military bases, fire stations,

00:59:21.510 --> 00:59:24.489
all over the country. So the Department of Defense,

00:59:24.789 --> 00:59:27.710
realizing this, put together a list of different

00:59:27.710 --> 00:59:29.630
places where this stuff might have been used

00:59:29.630 --> 00:59:32.079
and went out and started sampling. Other places

00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:35.360
started sampling. What we saw beginning a couple

00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:37.340
of years after that was this stuff was everywhere.

00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:42.960
And so as that information came out, it triggered

00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.179
EPA to finally start the process to look at,

00:59:45.219 --> 00:59:47.820
should we regulate this stuff? But what it also

00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:50.860
did is it said under our settlement, anybody

00:59:50.860 --> 00:59:54.780
in that community of 70 ,000 people that had

00:59:54.780 --> 00:59:57.800
one of these six diseases, they were now allowed

00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:00.980
to move forward and get compensation in trials.

01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:04.619
to go after DuPont. DuPont could not dispute

01:00:04.619 --> 01:00:07.099
that these chemicals could cause these diseases

01:00:07.099 --> 01:00:10.579
under our settlement. We had 3 ,500 people just

01:00:10.579 --> 01:00:13.099
in this one community come forward with one of

01:00:13.099 --> 01:00:16.340
these diseases. We started taking those cases

01:00:16.340 --> 01:00:20.519
to trial in 2015. And the first one went to trial,

01:00:20.619 --> 01:00:23.139
six weeks of trial, where we laid out all this

01:00:23.139 --> 01:00:26.159
evidence. DuPont was found liable for having

01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.820
caused cancer in a lady whose drinking water

01:00:29.820 --> 01:00:34.780
is contaminated. Three more trials, more verdicts

01:00:34.780 --> 01:00:37.500
against DuPont, punitive damages, including that

01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:40.539
the company acted with conscious disregard. So

01:00:40.539 --> 01:00:42.960
these trials are occurring. They're being found

01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:46.539
liable. But really, nobody else around the country

01:00:46.539 --> 01:00:51.260
knows about this. Nobody realizes this isn't

01:00:51.260 --> 01:00:53.760
just West Virginia. All this sampling that's

01:00:53.760 --> 01:00:55.679
going on, nobody really knows that's happening.

01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:58.079
That data is going into EPA, but nobody else

01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.460
really knows about it. Things all changed dramatically

01:01:01.460 --> 01:01:06.039
in 2016, in January, when Nathaniel Rich published

01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:09.320
an article in the New York Times Magazine. And

01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:11.739
it summarized this whole story, talked about

01:01:11.739 --> 01:01:15.179
these trials. And for the first time, people

01:01:15.179 --> 01:01:17.780
across the country started realizing, wait a

01:01:17.780 --> 01:01:21.000
minute. So this chemical might, because what

01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:23.400
Nathaniel also pointed out was the chemical was

01:01:23.400 --> 01:01:25.739
being found in other places across the U .S.

01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:29.119
So that prompted people to start calling state

01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:31.320
regulators, governor's office, representatives.

01:01:31.579 --> 01:01:34.960
Hey, what's this chemical and what's the safe

01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:37.880
level for it? Now, those of you who've seen the

01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:41.139
movie or the film realize, remember, I sent the

01:01:41.139 --> 01:01:45.599
letter to the US EPA back in 2001, alerting them.

01:01:45.659 --> 01:01:47.659
This stuff is out there. We need to look into

01:01:47.659 --> 01:01:50.199
it. Nothing had really nothing had happened.

01:01:50.619 --> 01:01:54.579
But once this article came out in 2016, people

01:01:54.579 --> 01:01:59.059
started demanding. What is the safe level? Four

01:01:59.059 --> 01:02:02.519
months later, May of 2016, US EPA came out with

01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:04.920
its first drinking water guideline for these

01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.539
chemicals, PFOA and PFOS in drinking water. No

01:02:08.539 --> 01:02:11.659
more than 70 parts per trillion. That prompted

01:02:11.659 --> 01:02:14.980
more testing. And suddenly, from that point forward,

01:02:15.059 --> 01:02:17.940
almost every day in this country and now worldwide,

01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:20.940
people are finding these chemicals in their water

01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:25.030
above those levels or lower than that. And so

01:02:25.030 --> 01:02:29.110
it's led to massive testing. But still, there

01:02:29.110 --> 01:02:31.909
wasn't much understanding outside these places

01:02:31.909 --> 01:02:33.789
where this stuff was found that these chemicals

01:02:33.789 --> 01:02:37.670
even existed. And one day, I got a call from

01:02:37.670 --> 01:02:42.750
Mark Ruffalo, who said, hey, how is this happening?

01:02:42.789 --> 01:02:46.349
I just read this article in the New York Times

01:02:46.349 --> 01:02:49.630
Magazine. How is something like this happening

01:02:49.630 --> 01:02:53.230
in the United States? And nobody's talking about

01:02:53.230 --> 01:02:56.010
this. Nobody knows. This chemical could be all

01:02:56.010 --> 01:02:59.389
over the country. Why are we not getting this

01:02:59.389 --> 01:03:01.949
story out? Why is it on the front page of the

01:03:01.949 --> 01:03:04.550
New York Times magazine, not the New York Times

01:03:04.550 --> 01:03:07.369
newspaper? Why is it not on the front pages?

01:03:07.690 --> 01:03:11.070
And how do we get this story out? And that led

01:03:11.070 --> 01:03:14.190
to him being able to put together an incredible

01:03:14.190 --> 01:03:17.429
team that then were able to bring the film Dark

01:03:17.429 --> 01:03:19.949
Waters out. documentary, The Double We Know,

01:03:20.070 --> 01:03:22.829
was put together as well. I sat down and wrote

01:03:22.829 --> 01:03:26.929
the book, Exposure, all trying to find ways to

01:03:26.929 --> 01:03:29.570
get the story out to the broader population.

01:03:30.130 --> 01:03:32.969
That finally started to happen. We finally start

01:03:32.969 --> 01:03:36.630
to see this information seep out. And then really

01:03:36.630 --> 01:03:39.230
what started happening in the last couple of

01:03:39.230 --> 01:03:41.730
years as the story has come out, people have

01:03:41.730 --> 01:03:45.369
started to ask, where are these chemicals coming

01:03:45.369 --> 01:03:49.599
from? What products have they been used in? And

01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:52.460
as we already had identified firefighting foam,

01:03:52.619 --> 01:03:56.000
one of the more recent things we've also started

01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:01.420
to realize is you've got groups within the country

01:04:01.420 --> 01:04:04.480
that are particularly exposed. Like, think about

01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:07.519
it. Who's spraying that firefighting foam? It's

01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:10.480
the firefighters. And then we start to realize

01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:13.619
the firefighting community not only didn't know

01:04:13.619 --> 01:04:16.630
about the foam, But they didn't realize that

01:04:16.630 --> 01:04:19.110
their turnout gear, the gear that they've been

01:04:19.110 --> 01:04:22.730
wearing, historically was coated with certain

01:04:22.730 --> 01:04:25.670
types of treatments that were made using some

01:04:25.670 --> 01:04:28.150
of these chemicals. And that that stuff might

01:04:28.150 --> 01:04:31.269
actually be on the turnout gear. And that gear,

01:04:31.469 --> 01:04:34.469
as it breaks down over time, and as it's worn

01:04:34.469 --> 01:04:36.889
and used in the firehouse and the dust comes

01:04:36.889 --> 01:04:39.429
out, that that gear might be a source of exposure

01:04:39.429 --> 01:04:42.139
to these chemicals as well. So over the last

01:04:42.139 --> 01:04:44.619
year or so, that information started to come

01:04:44.619 --> 01:04:47.019
out. And then people realize it's not just firefighters,

01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:50.480
but it's what about people that are buying waterproof

01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:55.460
cosmetics, computer chips, fast food wrappers

01:04:55.460 --> 01:05:00.460
and packaging? This stuff is everywhere. So it's

01:05:00.460 --> 01:05:05.219
been incredible to see how much power there is

01:05:05.219 --> 01:05:07.900
behind getting a story out like this through

01:05:07.900 --> 01:05:10.099
having these films, the book, the documentary.

01:05:10.809 --> 01:05:13.989
that raising people's awareness is leading to

01:05:13.989 --> 01:05:18.110
people finally knowing, hey, this stuff's out

01:05:18.110 --> 01:05:20.429
there. How can I start to minimize my exposure?

01:05:20.829 --> 01:05:23.530
And that's finally beginning because we're finally

01:05:23.530 --> 01:05:26.750
starting to realize which products these things

01:05:26.750 --> 01:05:29.329
have been used in. And people are finally starting

01:05:29.329 --> 01:05:31.789
to be able to make a choice to say, I don't want

01:05:31.789 --> 01:05:34.610
those in those products. I want that taken out.

01:05:34.730 --> 01:05:37.230
And we're seeing that that's having incredible

01:05:37.230 --> 01:05:40.400
power. Companies are starting to come forward

01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.739
and say, based on market demand, we will remove

01:05:43.739 --> 01:05:46.539
these now from these products going forward.

01:05:46.739 --> 01:05:49.059
It's taken a long time to get there, but it's

01:05:49.059 --> 01:05:51.119
starting to happen. Really, when you look at

01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:55.300
this story, I'm hoping people realize it's an

01:05:55.300 --> 01:05:58.019
optimistic story because it's showing people

01:05:58.019 --> 01:06:02.719
standing up and demanding things change. It can

01:06:02.719 --> 01:06:06.179
work. It might take a long time to get there,

01:06:06.280 --> 01:06:09.869
but ultimately… that truth comes out, things

01:06:09.869 --> 01:06:13.929
can change, and it can be fixed. Well, first,

01:06:13.989 --> 01:06:16.269
it's amazing when you think this all stemmed

01:06:16.269 --> 01:06:20.469
from a farmer picking up a phone. And here we

01:06:20.469 --> 01:06:22.949
are now with this huge element. The second thing,

01:06:22.989 --> 01:06:24.590
and something I talk about a lot here, because

01:06:24.590 --> 01:06:27.210
my community, the fire service, I've written

01:06:27.210 --> 01:06:29.480
one book. I'm about to start a fiction. Because

01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:31.679
I want, again, a different lens. And then, you

01:06:31.679 --> 01:06:34.460
know, who knows if it's ever made into a TV series

01:06:34.460 --> 01:06:37.099
or a film or there's another medium that you

01:06:37.099 --> 01:06:40.880
can share this message. But there's no better

01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:42.820
time, I think, than the last few years, both

01:06:42.820 --> 01:06:45.059
administrations, where you realize that you can't

01:06:45.059 --> 01:06:47.639
just expect people in government buildings to

01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:49.460
fix things for you, that you have to band together

01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:52.500
and be part of the solution yourself. And with

01:06:52.500 --> 01:06:55.079
the fire community specifically. You know, I've

01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:56.599
buried so many people. That's why I started this

01:06:56.599 --> 01:06:58.480
podcast, because I was sick of going to funerals.

01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:01.940
It's that simple. And you look at the fact that

01:07:01.940 --> 01:07:04.820
we were exposed to AFFF. I mean, I've lost count

01:07:04.820 --> 01:07:06.619
how many times I was, you know, flowing that

01:07:06.619 --> 01:07:08.579
foam. And we're wearing the gear. And even if

01:07:08.579 --> 01:07:10.219
we clean the gear, we're working out in the gear.

01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:12.079
A lot of us sort of take our job seriously. So

01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:15.059
now your sweat is now absorbing. Even if it's

01:07:15.059 --> 01:07:16.880
brand new and clean, it might be absorbing some

01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:20.000
of the PFAS. And then you add sleep deprivation,

01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:21.980
which is a huge thing that I discuss on here.

01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:25.260
So you're breaking down the immune system so

01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:27.880
the people that are being exposed to more carcinogens

01:07:27.880 --> 01:07:29.980
than the average person has some of the most

01:07:29.980 --> 01:07:32.739
diminished immune systems as well. So, you know,

01:07:32.739 --> 01:07:37.019
it's such a powerful perspective. And I thank

01:07:37.019 --> 01:07:40.820
you so much because the average person is now

01:07:40.820 --> 01:07:44.539
at risk and has a higher risk now of some of

01:07:44.539 --> 01:07:46.599
these diseases. But then the people that have

01:07:46.599 --> 01:07:49.389
used these in their careers. There's a real understanding

01:07:49.389 --> 01:07:51.809
now because we hear this PFAS being thrown around.

01:07:51.909 --> 01:07:53.750
I don't think many of us, myself included, really

01:07:53.750 --> 01:07:56.110
understand it. And now, you know, you spent an

01:07:56.110 --> 01:07:58.630
hour to really explain it and educate us, not

01:07:58.630 --> 01:08:00.789
only, you know, if you were in the uniform, how

01:08:00.789 --> 01:08:04.190
exposed we are, but that your unborn child or

01:08:04.190 --> 01:08:06.369
your grandmother in another state might equally

01:08:06.369 --> 01:08:09.789
be as exposed through their drinking water. Yeah,

01:08:09.809 --> 01:08:13.030
it's very concerning when you step back and look

01:08:13.030 --> 01:08:15.530
at just the scope and scale of this. I don't

01:08:15.530 --> 01:08:18.369
know if we've seen something that's got such

01:08:18.369 --> 01:08:22.609
global impacts as this stuff. Because keep in

01:08:22.609 --> 01:08:25.270
mind, it's in the blood of almost every person.

01:08:25.869 --> 01:08:28.510
Babies are born pre -polluted with this. I mean,

01:08:28.529 --> 01:08:31.390
it moves through the placenta from mother to

01:08:31.390 --> 01:08:34.750
unborn child. So babies are born with these chemicals

01:08:34.750 --> 01:08:39.180
already in their blood. And it's in all these

01:08:39.180 --> 01:08:41.739
products. It's in our air, our water, our soil.

01:08:42.079 --> 01:08:44.420
Stuff's being found in polar bears. I mean, it

01:08:44.420 --> 01:08:47.079
moves globally through the air, through the rain.

01:08:47.340 --> 01:08:52.539
So it's a massive issue. And when you stop and

01:08:52.539 --> 01:08:54.680
think about it, you mentioned the immune impacts.

01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:57.699
One of the most disturbing aspects of these chemicals

01:08:57.699 --> 01:09:01.300
is, I mentioned the six diseases that were linked

01:09:01.300 --> 01:09:04.720
back in 2012. Well, science. has continued to

01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:07.760
roll on and additional studies have been done.

01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:10.720
And some of the most troubling studies are those

01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:13.880
that are finding that these chemicals can impair

01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:17.180
our immune function. And you think about the

01:09:17.180 --> 01:09:20.739
cascade of things that flow from that, you know,

01:09:20.739 --> 01:09:22.819
from having an impaired immune system. And one

01:09:22.819 --> 01:09:24.939
of the other aspects people are looking into,

01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:27.939
in fact, the ATSDR CDC is looking at this right

01:09:27.939 --> 01:09:31.159
now is. the potential ability of these chemicals

01:09:31.159 --> 01:09:34.180
to not only impair our immune system, but decrease

01:09:34.180 --> 01:09:37.439
the effectiveness of vaccines. And think about

01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:40.859
that. Well, we're in a global pandemic. Chemicals

01:09:40.859 --> 01:09:43.579
that have that potential impact that are in our

01:09:43.579 --> 01:09:46.220
blood, in our air, in our water, in our soil.

01:09:46.300 --> 01:09:49.699
Why aren't we talking about this? Why isn't this

01:09:49.699 --> 01:09:55.899
a bigger issue? And so raising awareness is critically

01:09:55.899 --> 01:10:00.739
important, that people understand what these

01:10:00.739 --> 01:10:03.760
things are, what their impacts are, what the

01:10:03.760 --> 01:10:07.420
scale and scope of it is, so that we can start

01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:10.739
demanding that things be changed. And we're seeing

01:10:10.739 --> 01:10:13.899
that impact. And again, as the firefighting community

01:10:13.899 --> 01:10:17.420
is becoming aware of this and is demanding change

01:10:17.420 --> 01:10:21.739
among suppliers. as community groups and others

01:10:21.739 --> 01:10:25.079
are coming forward, we're seeing things finally

01:10:25.079 --> 01:10:28.140
start to change. In fact, we saw a dramatic reflection

01:10:28.140 --> 01:10:32.060
of that just last week when at the National PFAS

01:10:32.060 --> 01:10:35.359
Conference in Wilmington, North Carolina, the

01:10:35.359 --> 01:10:41.619
US EPA made their announcement dropping the drinking

01:10:41.619 --> 01:10:45.239
water guidelines from 70 parts per trillion to

01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:49.800
levels for PFOA and PFOS. that are right now

01:10:49.800 --> 01:10:53.060
below the levels you can even detect in most

01:10:53.060 --> 01:10:56.239
labs. So they're sending a very strong message

01:10:56.239 --> 01:10:59.539
that looking at the science, there's a concern

01:10:59.539 --> 01:11:02.460
about even detectable levels of these chemicals

01:11:02.460 --> 01:11:07.720
in drinking water nationwide. So it's just really,

01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:12.239
I think, a powerful indication of how serious

01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:15.819
we should be taking the potential health impacts

01:11:15.819 --> 01:11:20.850
from these chemicals at fairly low levels. You

01:11:20.850 --> 01:11:23.130
know, so it's something that we really ought

01:11:23.130 --> 01:11:26.750
to be talking about. And I'm very happy that,

01:11:26.750 --> 01:11:29.069
you know, you've to be in a forum like this,

01:11:29.109 --> 01:11:31.310
you know, reaching out, particularly with firefighting

01:11:31.310 --> 01:11:35.229
community, because it's really distressing when

01:11:35.229 --> 01:11:38.329
you learn about how many folks still really aren't

01:11:38.329 --> 01:11:40.829
aware of this and still really don't understand.

01:11:41.529 --> 01:11:45.890
why this is a concern and the types of things

01:11:45.890 --> 01:11:49.829
that can be done, you know, to fairly easily

01:11:49.829 --> 01:11:52.909
to at least minimize some of this exposure. You

01:11:52.909 --> 01:11:54.930
know, I've heard some of the representatives

01:11:54.930 --> 01:11:57.600
from the fire fighting. community talk about

01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:00.979
not wearing this stuff, the gear, for example,

01:12:01.180 --> 01:12:04.119
unless you're actually in the fire and not working

01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:07.680
out in it or taking steps to clean in the firehouse

01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:10.119
to get rid of this dust. Dr. Peasley at Notre

01:12:10.119 --> 01:12:17.640
Dame has done some groundbreaking work to confirm

01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:20.539
and analyze you know how much of this stuff might

01:12:20.539 --> 01:12:23.479
be coming off in firehouses so anything that

01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:26.439
we can do to help raise understanding and awareness

01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:31.060
the better now as far as a deterrent you know

01:12:31.060 --> 01:12:34.140
when when you look at for example the withdrawal

01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:36.460
from afghanistan you know a lot of lives were

01:12:36.460 --> 01:12:39.699
lost you know i mean probably billions i'm assuming

01:12:39.699 --> 01:12:41.560
if not you know hundreds and hundreds of millions

01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:43.939
of dollars worth of equipment was left there

01:12:43.939 --> 01:12:47.199
and no accountability whatsoever. So there's

01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:51.140
no deterrent for that happening again. With DuPont,

01:12:51.340 --> 01:12:54.880
you hear so many times with these large organizations,

01:12:55.380 --> 01:12:58.699
a financial hit may not even really register

01:12:58.699 --> 01:13:01.199
because the profits far outweigh the fine that

01:13:01.199 --> 01:13:04.800
they were given. How do we hold these people

01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:08.939
accountable to truly set a precedent so it doesn't

01:13:08.939 --> 01:13:11.279
happen again, so that there is some sort of justice

01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:16.619
outside of a financial amount? Well, yeah, it's

01:13:16.619 --> 01:13:19.920
a question I often hear, you know, how does this

01:13:19.920 --> 01:13:24.859
happen? And why aren't we doing more to make

01:13:24.859 --> 01:13:28.619
sure that the folks that did this are held responsible?

01:13:29.380 --> 01:13:33.180
You know, in the one community where DuPont entered

01:13:33.180 --> 01:13:35.180
into this settlement, the one where we had the

01:13:35.180 --> 01:13:38.800
health studies and, you know, there have been

01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:42.539
settlements there, you know, over 600, 700 million

01:13:42.539 --> 01:13:45.729
for the folks impacted in that community. But

01:13:45.729 --> 01:13:48.189
in other places across the country and across

01:13:48.189 --> 01:13:51.829
the world where these chemicals are also in the

01:13:51.829 --> 01:13:53.689
drinking water, we've now found them in these

01:13:53.689 --> 01:13:56.250
other places or in people's blood. You know,

01:13:56.250 --> 01:13:59.949
these companies are continuing to deny responsibility.

01:14:00.670 --> 01:14:05.789
And unfortunately, it's the costs of dealing

01:14:05.789 --> 01:14:09.210
with all this. Putting in water filtration systems,

01:14:09.449 --> 01:14:11.810
trying to clean this out of the water, the health

01:14:11.810 --> 01:14:14.850
impacts on people, that's being pushed onto all

01:14:14.850 --> 01:14:20.310
of us. The innocent, exposed populations are

01:14:20.310 --> 01:14:23.649
the ones being told, we have to prove that these

01:14:23.649 --> 01:14:27.649
things are harmful. Unless and until we do, these

01:14:27.649 --> 01:14:30.810
companies are denying responsibility. We saw

01:14:30.810 --> 01:14:35.430
even the president get up recently and And it

01:14:35.430 --> 01:14:38.409
notes that PFAS was a national issue that we

01:14:38.409 --> 01:14:40.569
need to be addressing and allocating $10 billion

01:14:40.569 --> 01:14:44.869
under the infrastructure bill to deal with PFAS,

01:14:44.890 --> 01:14:49.189
which really, I think, emphasizes the national

01:14:49.189 --> 01:14:52.449
significance and importance of this issue. But

01:14:52.449 --> 01:14:55.729
the concern is that $10 billion, that's taxpayer

01:14:55.729 --> 01:14:58.670
money. That's the money from us. Why are the

01:14:58.670 --> 01:15:02.060
companies who did this not? paying for these

01:15:02.060 --> 01:15:04.779
costs. That's where we ought to be getting the

01:15:04.779 --> 01:15:08.279
money. We're involved in litigation all over

01:15:08.279 --> 01:15:10.600
the country right now on behalf of people who

01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:12.920
have been impacted by this, trying to make sure

01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:16.420
that those costs are borne by the folks who did

01:15:16.420 --> 01:15:20.739
this. Remember, these are not naturally occurring.

01:15:20.899 --> 01:15:24.340
If you find this stuff in the water, in the soil,

01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:27.670
in your blood, we know where it came from. We

01:15:27.670 --> 01:15:30.170
know who created them. They're like fingerprints

01:15:30.170 --> 01:15:33.350
back to these companies. And it'd be pretty easy

01:15:33.350 --> 01:15:38.590
to know who's responsible here. But that's a

01:15:38.590 --> 01:15:41.770
battle that wages, unfortunately, across the

01:15:41.770 --> 01:15:44.890
country and across the world at present to make

01:15:44.890 --> 01:15:47.069
sure that the people who actually caused this

01:15:47.069 --> 01:15:50.989
problem and knew about this decades ago are the

01:15:50.989 --> 01:15:55.000
ones who pay for it, not us. Absolutely. Well,

01:15:55.060 --> 01:15:56.619
I want to get some closing questions, but one

01:15:56.619 --> 01:15:59.180
more area just before we do. You mentioned a

01:15:59.180 --> 01:16:02.880
new lawsuit that is literally looking far wider

01:16:02.880 --> 01:16:07.420
than that West Virginian community and is kind

01:16:07.420 --> 01:16:09.920
of spearheaded by a firefighter this time. So

01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:12.979
talk to me about that case. Yeah, well, you know,

01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:17.020
as we started to realize that as PFOA and PFOS

01:16:17.020 --> 01:16:20.939
were being phased out. We saw all these additional

01:16:20.939 --> 01:16:23.720
PFAS coming out into the world, things like with

01:16:23.720 --> 01:16:27.279
a couple fewer carbons, C6s like Gen X or C4,

01:16:27.420 --> 01:16:30.060
or we saw things with more carbons, C9s, C10s.

01:16:30.560 --> 01:16:33.239
As those came out and as some of those start

01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:35.779
getting found in the water, like Gen X in the

01:16:35.779 --> 01:16:38.159
water of hundreds of thousands of people in North

01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:40.939
Carolina, what we heard the company say was,

01:16:41.079 --> 01:16:45.239
all the science, that was all done on PFOA. That

01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:49.079
science panel you set up, that was on PFOA. You

01:16:49.079 --> 01:16:51.300
don't have any evidence showing these other ones

01:16:51.300 --> 01:16:54.100
cause harm. And now you, the exposed people,

01:16:54.300 --> 01:16:56.180
it's your burden to show that they're harmful.

01:16:56.659 --> 01:16:59.060
Meanwhile, the companies that are making them,

01:16:59.100 --> 01:17:01.279
pumping them out, aren't doing those studies,

01:17:01.380 --> 01:17:03.720
and they're not providing the funding necessary

01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:07.060
to do those studies. And they're saying, well,

01:17:07.119 --> 01:17:09.960
it takes tens of thousands of people to do a

01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:12.899
study big enough to show cancer. And unless you've

01:17:12.899 --> 01:17:16.060
done that, you don't have enough. The study's

01:17:16.060 --> 01:17:18.619
not big enough. You can't draw conclusions. So

01:17:18.619 --> 01:17:22.199
what we tried to do is come up with a way to

01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:26.600
say, look, the science is in on PFOA at a minimum,

01:17:26.659 --> 01:17:30.479
showing serious health impacts. But we also know

01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:34.239
that PFOA in our blood is mixing with these other

01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:37.439
PFAS now. And if you, if the companies making

01:17:37.439 --> 01:17:39.539
those are going to say that there's not enough

01:17:39.539 --> 01:17:42.039
data out there to tell us what they're doing

01:17:42.039 --> 01:17:45.479
when they mix in our blood, you should be paying

01:17:45.479 --> 01:17:48.720
the independent scientists. to do whatever studies

01:17:48.720 --> 01:17:53.119
are necessary, not tell us we have to do it and

01:17:53.119 --> 01:17:55.920
pay for it. So I've filed a case where we are

01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:59.960
seeking to have a court essentially empower a

01:17:59.960 --> 01:18:04.659
new scientific panel to look at this mix of PFOA

01:18:04.659 --> 01:18:08.619
and other PFAS in our blood. And we're seeking

01:18:08.619 --> 01:18:11.180
to bring it on behalf of anyone who's got these

01:18:11.180 --> 01:18:13.479
chemicals in their blood across the United States

01:18:13.479 --> 01:18:17.760
and to have the court empower. these scientists

01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:20.479
to do whatever studies testing are necessary

01:18:20.479 --> 01:18:23.180
to tell us what they're doing to us and to have

01:18:23.180 --> 01:18:25.960
the companies have to fund those studies. And

01:18:25.960 --> 01:18:28.859
so we were fortunate to have the court allow

01:18:28.859 --> 01:18:32.199
us to proceed as a class action at this point

01:18:32.199 --> 01:18:34.659
on behalf of everybody subject to Ohio laws.

01:18:34.939 --> 01:18:36.640
And it's going to be subject to further briefing

01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:39.260
to figure out exactly how many millions of people

01:18:39.260 --> 01:18:45.520
are in that class. We're hoping that that will

01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.579
allow us to move forward and get the science

01:18:48.579 --> 01:18:52.920
confirmed on these other PFAS as well. And as

01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:55.239
you indicated, our lead plaintiff is an Ohio

01:18:55.239 --> 01:19:00.810
firefighter. So just circling around. The ethical

01:19:00.810 --> 01:19:03.569
side, you started your career working with these

01:19:03.569 --> 01:19:05.810
corporations. And as we discussed, black and

01:19:05.810 --> 01:19:10.310
white, there was a gray area of mainly well -intentioned

01:19:10.310 --> 01:19:13.949
people trying to move forward in industry. What

01:19:13.949 --> 01:19:16.649
is so different about the business culture in

01:19:16.649 --> 01:19:20.329
DuPont that created this complete lack of ethics

01:19:20.329 --> 01:19:22.689
when you work with companies that are seemingly

01:19:22.689 --> 01:19:27.329
polar opposite to this? That's a great question,

01:19:27.390 --> 01:19:29.529
but one that I think has a very complicated answer.

01:19:30.270 --> 01:19:34.010
There are so many different factors that led

01:19:34.010 --> 01:19:38.109
to how we got here and why these decisions were

01:19:38.109 --> 01:19:43.250
made, who made those decisions. Some of it depends

01:19:43.250 --> 01:19:46.289
on, frankly, the way the company was structured,

01:19:46.529 --> 01:19:50.449
how their corporate office… interacted with their

01:19:50.449 --> 01:19:52.970
different business units and the flow of information

01:19:52.970 --> 01:19:56.090
and the chain of command and how the scientists

01:19:56.090 --> 01:19:58.750
and lawyers were separate from the business people.

01:19:59.109 --> 01:20:01.430
In fact, there have been papers that have been

01:20:01.430 --> 01:20:06.050
written recently, one in particular by Zingales

01:20:06.050 --> 01:20:09.989
that looked at how does a decision like this

01:20:10.390 --> 01:20:13.930
happen? What makes it, quote, economically rational

01:20:13.930 --> 01:20:18.409
for a company to do what DuPont did? Because

01:20:18.409 --> 01:20:21.590
of the fact that even once they're caught and

01:20:21.590 --> 01:20:24.390
even after they have to pay penalties and settlements

01:20:24.390 --> 01:20:27.090
and hundreds of millions, does that still end

01:20:27.090 --> 01:20:30.510
up being an economically rational decision based

01:20:30.510 --> 01:20:32.850
on the amount of profit that was made in the

01:20:32.850 --> 01:20:36.739
meantime? And what can be done to change that?

01:20:36.859 --> 01:20:39.720
So those types of decisions aren't made going

01:20:39.720 --> 01:20:46.760
forward. So it's an incredibly complex problem

01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:51.500
that led to this outcome. Well, I thank you so

01:20:51.500 --> 01:20:52.979
much for your perspective and kind of walking

01:20:52.979 --> 01:20:54.680
us through this. If I could just throw a few

01:20:54.680 --> 01:20:56.840
closing questions at you before I let you go.

01:20:57.739 --> 01:20:59.380
The first thing I want to make sure everyone

01:20:59.380 --> 01:21:02.319
knows, so your book is Exposure. So firstly,

01:21:02.380 --> 01:21:06.220
tell everyone where they can find that. It's

01:21:06.220 --> 01:21:09.659
published by Simon & Schuster, Atria Books. It's

01:21:09.659 --> 01:21:12.779
available on Amazon, most major booksellers online.

01:21:14.380 --> 01:21:19.220
So yeah, it's a hard copy and paperback. And

01:21:19.220 --> 01:21:21.979
there's an audio version where Mark Ruffalo reads

01:21:21.979 --> 01:21:24.819
the first chapter and then Jeremy Bob does the

01:21:24.819 --> 01:21:29.079
narration for the rest. Beautiful. So the first

01:21:29.079 --> 01:21:30.640
of the closing questions, are there any other

01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:33.100
books that you love to recommend? It can be related

01:21:33.100 --> 01:21:37.100
to our discussion or completely unrelated. Oh,

01:21:37.119 --> 01:21:40.300
you know, there's, I'm trying to remember the

01:21:40.300 --> 01:21:42.659
name now, but there was a book, an earlier book

01:21:42.659 --> 01:21:48.279
by Callie Lyons back in the early 2000s. I think

01:21:48.279 --> 01:21:52.640
the titled C8, I don't remember what the subtitle

01:21:52.640 --> 01:21:55.520
is, but kind of looks at some of this history

01:21:55.520 --> 01:21:59.279
as well. Gosh, I'm drawing a blank. There are

01:21:59.279 --> 01:22:03.420
a couple of other books as well. It'll come to

01:22:03.420 --> 01:22:05.779
me. I'm just not remembering the names right

01:22:05.779 --> 01:22:09.319
now. No problem at all. So the same question

01:22:09.319 --> 01:22:11.500
with the film. So again, Dark Waters was the

01:22:11.500 --> 01:22:14.260
dramatized version with Mark Ruffalo. The documentary

01:22:14.260 --> 01:22:16.500
was The Devil We Know. I think those two complement

01:22:16.500 --> 01:22:19.779
each other so well. So what about other films

01:22:19.779 --> 01:22:22.279
and or documentaries that you love personally?

01:22:23.720 --> 01:22:29.149
Yeah. There was an early documentary that was

01:22:29.149 --> 01:22:32.590
actually done by Swedish filmmakers back in 2012

01:22:32.590 --> 01:22:35.869
called The Toxic Compromise that you may still

01:22:35.869 --> 01:22:38.630
be able to find maybe on YouTube. It's an English

01:22:38.630 --> 01:22:41.270
subtitle. So you can, you know, it's looking

01:22:41.270 --> 01:22:45.010
at basically from the perspective of finding

01:22:45.010 --> 01:22:47.609
these chemicals in a newborn baby in Sweden,

01:22:47.670 --> 01:22:50.449
you know, and trying to explain where they came

01:22:50.449 --> 01:22:57.489
from and how that happened. There are, I think,

01:22:57.489 --> 01:22:59.449
some other documentaries that are in the works

01:22:59.449 --> 01:23:02.890
as we speak. So hopefully there'll be even more

01:23:02.890 --> 01:23:07.090
stories like what, you know, you'll be able to

01:23:07.090 --> 01:23:10.670
see what's really happening in these communities.

01:23:11.369 --> 01:23:13.850
I think that was the really powerful part of

01:23:13.850 --> 01:23:15.930
what you see in The Devil We Know and in Dark

01:23:15.930 --> 01:23:19.069
Waters is you get to see how something like this

01:23:19.069 --> 01:23:22.510
impacts real people in real communities. And

01:23:22.510 --> 01:23:24.930
so there are other efforts underway, I know,

01:23:24.970 --> 01:23:27.569
to document similar things in other communities

01:23:27.569 --> 01:23:31.449
that are experiencing the same problem and to

01:23:31.449 --> 01:23:34.210
see what really happens, what happens to real

01:23:34.210 --> 01:23:36.149
families and real communities dealing with this.

01:23:36.970 --> 01:23:38.850
Yeah, I think that's what I really got from it.

01:23:39.960 --> 01:23:41.960
When it is in print, for example, then you're

01:23:41.960 --> 01:23:43.520
looking at statistics, you're looking at numbers,

01:23:43.640 --> 01:23:46.560
you're looking at court cases. But what really

01:23:46.560 --> 01:23:50.000
jumps out from the films is the human pain and

01:23:50.000 --> 01:23:52.439
suffering. And I'm sure if you looked at a documentary

01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:54.739
on Chernobyl and the surrounding areas, you'd

01:23:54.739 --> 01:23:56.600
probably see a similar kind of thing. But the

01:23:56.600 --> 01:23:58.939
impact on Bucky, for example, and his family

01:23:58.939 --> 01:24:02.340
and being a child growing up initially homeschooled

01:24:02.340 --> 01:24:03.760
and then having to go to school for the first

01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:06.960
time. And you've got your facial symmetry is

01:24:06.960 --> 01:24:08.619
different than the children that you share in

01:24:08.619 --> 01:24:10.430
a classroom. with and there's the you know the

01:24:10.430 --> 01:24:12.729
bullying element and some of the the pain from

01:24:12.729 --> 01:24:14.550
the procedures he's goes through this is one

01:24:14.550 --> 01:24:17.409
child one unborn child and the ripple effect

01:24:17.409 --> 01:24:20.369
of you know some of these economic decisions

01:24:20.369 --> 01:24:24.069
on so much pain suffering physically and mentally

01:24:24.069 --> 01:24:27.250
of the entire community that is a story i think

01:24:27.250 --> 01:24:29.350
that's told so well in both of the two films

01:24:29.350 --> 01:24:34.449
that you were a part of Yeah. And it was really

01:24:34.449 --> 01:24:37.989
an honor to be able to participate in those and

01:24:37.989 --> 01:24:42.229
to be able to help bring those stories out. Because

01:24:42.229 --> 01:24:46.090
I think it's been powerful for people to see

01:24:46.090 --> 01:24:50.189
that, wait a minute, this isn't just happening

01:24:50.189 --> 01:24:53.189
to these people in West Virginia. And to realize

01:24:53.189 --> 01:24:58.229
this is in all of us. These things are impacting

01:24:58.229 --> 01:25:03.659
all of us. We share a common problem here absolutely

01:25:03.659 --> 01:25:05.880
all right well then the next question is there

01:25:05.880 --> 01:25:08.359
a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

01:25:08.359 --> 01:25:11.380
as a guest to speak to the first responders military

01:25:11.380 --> 01:25:15.680
and associated professions of the world oh and

01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:17.560
unless you've already had them i would highly

01:25:17.560 --> 01:25:22.350
recommend Dr. Graham Peasley at Notre Dame, who's

01:25:22.350 --> 01:25:25.670
been doing some of the research on looking at

01:25:25.670 --> 01:25:29.369
these materials from different like turnout gear

01:25:29.369 --> 01:25:33.489
and that kind of, there's so many folks within

01:25:33.489 --> 01:25:36.729
the fire community. I can provide you a list.

01:25:38.560 --> 01:25:40.100
Beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, obviously,

01:25:40.199 --> 01:25:43.739
Jim himself is a huge advocate and I've had him

01:25:43.739 --> 01:25:45.239
on the show and I've been on his as well. But

01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:47.880
as a firefighter that's gone through cancer and

01:25:47.880 --> 01:25:50.560
survived, I mean, it's obviously something he's

01:25:50.560 --> 01:25:52.739
very passionate about. But yeah, I mean, he sounds

01:25:52.739 --> 01:25:56.520
amazing as well. Yeah, Diane Cotter and her husband,

01:25:56.619 --> 01:26:01.119
Paul, have been very outspoken advocates on helping

01:26:01.119 --> 01:26:04.739
raise awareness of these issues within the firefighting

01:26:04.739 --> 01:26:06.979
community. If you haven't spoken to them, they

01:26:06.979 --> 01:26:10.020
have a powerful story. Brilliant. Thank you.

01:26:10.020 --> 01:26:11.399
Yeah, I haven't had either of them yet, so I

01:26:11.399 --> 01:26:13.180
will work on both of those. I appreciate the

01:26:13.180 --> 01:26:17.060
recommendation. So the last question before I

01:26:17.060 --> 01:26:18.899
make sure everyone knows where to find you if

01:26:18.899 --> 01:26:21.260
they want to reach out, what do you do to decompress?

01:26:23.909 --> 01:26:27.489
Well, I've got my three boys. We like to watch

01:26:27.489 --> 01:26:33.489
movies. We like to just basically, I even mentioned

01:26:33.489 --> 01:26:37.510
this in the book, watching cartoons is visually

01:26:37.510 --> 01:26:44.590
sort of tune out and be outside doing anything

01:26:44.590 --> 01:26:48.189
outside in the yard, going for walks, anything

01:26:48.189 --> 01:26:51.489
like that, just to tune the brain off for a while.

01:26:52.590 --> 01:26:55.529
In the film, you have that scene where you have

01:26:55.529 --> 01:26:58.510
the TIA. Again, I'm assuming that stress was

01:26:58.510 --> 01:27:02.909
a huge element. Once you got that decision, were

01:27:02.909 --> 01:27:05.390
you able, you personally, to step back a little

01:27:05.390 --> 01:27:07.630
bit and disconnect after having that fight and

01:27:07.630 --> 01:27:09.529
that pressure of seven years with no results?

01:27:11.649 --> 01:27:15.750
I wish I could say that was the case, but I mean,

01:27:15.770 --> 01:27:18.899
I've... Never really, never really kind of figured

01:27:18.899 --> 01:27:21.359
out what was going on there. You know, we've

01:27:21.359 --> 01:27:26.140
been able to keep things under control. But just

01:27:26.140 --> 01:27:29.079
I've tried not to let that, you know, distract

01:27:29.079 --> 01:27:32.140
from what needs to be done and moved forward.

01:27:32.180 --> 01:27:37.180
Just there are things you can't control and things

01:27:37.180 --> 01:27:38.720
you can. And that's one of the things I just,

01:27:38.800 --> 01:27:41.380
you know, figuring out what was going on. Not

01:27:41.380 --> 01:27:44.189
something I could control at that point. Brilliant.

01:27:44.189 --> 01:27:46.289
Well, I'm glad that you're doing well now. Well,

01:27:46.390 --> 01:27:48.890
I just want to thank you so much. For people

01:27:48.890 --> 01:27:50.930
listening, I'm sure there's a lot that want to

01:27:50.930 --> 01:27:53.329
reach out. Where are the best places online to

01:27:53.329 --> 01:27:56.989
learn more about you or reach out to you? You

01:27:56.989 --> 01:27:59.949
can always reach me through all my contact information

01:27:59.949 --> 01:28:05.449
is posted on my law firm website. taftlaw .com,

01:28:05.489 --> 01:28:09.609
T -A -F -T -L -A -W .com. You know, my phone,

01:28:09.710 --> 01:28:13.510
email, all of that, and happy to chat with folks.

01:28:14.470 --> 01:28:19.029
So, looking forward to it. Well, Rob, I just

01:28:19.029 --> 01:28:22.069
want to say thank you. I mean, Jim told me about

01:28:22.069 --> 01:28:23.909
you a long time ago. We went back and forth for

01:28:23.909 --> 01:28:26.850
a bit. Having, like I said, watched the film,

01:28:26.890 --> 01:28:28.850
watched the documentary, listened to interviews

01:28:28.850 --> 01:28:31.800
that you've been on with other people. I was

01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:33.680
so moved by the story. I mean, as I mentioned,

01:28:33.720 --> 01:28:35.859
the pain and suffering element. I mean, how can

01:28:35.859 --> 01:28:38.659
you not be moved by that? But to hear someone

01:28:38.659 --> 01:28:42.500
who picked up the torch and against all odds

01:28:42.500 --> 01:28:46.340
kept fighting, I mean, it's such an inspirational

01:28:46.340 --> 01:28:49.039
story. And as you mentioned, it literally, you

01:28:49.039 --> 01:28:52.699
know. microorganismly, if that's a word and it's

01:28:52.699 --> 01:28:55.840
not, you know, affects every single one of us

01:28:55.840 --> 01:28:57.819
listening at the moment. So I just want to thank

01:28:57.819 --> 01:28:59.840
you so much for the work that you've done and

01:28:59.840 --> 01:29:01.659
for being so generous and coming on the podcast

01:29:01.659 --> 01:29:04.539
today. Well, thanks so much. It was a pleasure

01:29:04.539 --> 01:29:05.720
being here. Thank you.