WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As

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always, my name is James Geering, and this week

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it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,

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poet Dara Fleming. Now, I came across Dara through

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one of his poems that was posted on Instagram

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entitled, If I Ever Have Boys, and it resonated

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with me so deeply that I wanted to reach out

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to him. As I dove into his work, I discovered

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that a lot of it also addressed mental health,

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another commonality with this podcast. So we

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discuss a host of topics, from his own childhood,

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losing a friend to suicide, catharsis through

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poetry, his own powerful mental health story,

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some of his favorite poems, and so much more.

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Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you, Dara Fleming. Enjoy. came across you

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on social media when you were reading If I Ever

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Have Boys. And I want to obviously get to that

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poem as we progress through here. But I was so

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moved by that, that obviously I want to reach

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out to you on social media. And I want to thank

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you so much for saying yes and coming on the

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Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh, no, it's

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an absolute pleasure. And yeah, I feel like at

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this point, a lot of people find me that way,

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that poem. yeah just really connected with people

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and i suppose just at the top i have a lot of

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you know i have a lot of uh gratitude and i suppose

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uh credit due to lucas jones who that poem that

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poem was in response to lucas um so without him

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none of that would happen for me either um but

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it's something i think about a lot um hey because

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i don't have children yet so like how i would

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raise my children and especially in the world

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we live in now with all the So many influences

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and a lot of them are negative that it's important

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to think about. Absolutely. We'll dive into that.

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Very first question, where on planet Earth are

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we finding you this evening? We're finding me

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in Dublin, Ireland. I just was saying before

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we started recording, I've been here all of two

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weeks. So I came from Cork, where I'm originally

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from. And I just moved back from Barcelona in

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February. So there's been a lot of chopping and

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changing this calendar year, but we're settling

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in Dublin now. Beautiful. Well, I would love

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to start the very beginning of your journey then.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a

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little bit about your family dynamic, what your

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parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, so born

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originally in Cork in Ballinloch. just me my

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mom and dad and my older brother my brother is

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a year older than me so we yeah so we grew up

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together basically we were just very close there's

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only 13 months between us so like we've just

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always been best friends which has been great

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like to be able to grow up with your best friend

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is really special and then my parents came from

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working class backgrounds kind of crawled and

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clawed their way to the working class My dad

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worked as a security officer for a while, and

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then he was a private investigator, which was

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a very cool job to say your dad had. And now

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he's back working security again. And then my

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mother was like, and still is like a regional

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manager for like a wholesaler. So like supplying

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to shops and stuff. So that was kind of our background.

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And it was very like just the four of us, really

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straightforward, simple, nothing. of note which

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is good like there was no extreme negatives it

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was just yeah like a really simple lovely childhood

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and we were really lucky to have that because

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i know not everyone does were there any stories

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from your dad's career when he was a private

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investigator that he talks about kind of interesting

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or funny yeah so i mean i remember like there'd

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be days he'd pick me up from school and he'd

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be like i'm still working so you need to come

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with me and it would be a case of like me sitting

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in the in the front of the van his van and him

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getting into the back and there was like a black

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curtain and then there'd just be like a camera

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lens coming out next to my head and he'd be taking

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pictures but it was just all it was a lot of

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um insurance fraud and he'd have to do like i

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suppose the ones that got funnier kind of nuts

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where the uh when he had to you know serve people

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their their court summons uh and people would

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just run away in them or drive away from him

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and he'd be chasing them through the streets

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and that just sounds like a big hollywood movie

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but like that was the reality but that didn't

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happen very often like most of his job was like

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waiting around for people and just basically

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like say if they were claiming that they like

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hurt their neck and they couldn't work and then

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he'd like catch them doing like backflips in

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their back garden or something and then it'll

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be like oh well you're lying about your neck

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injury that was kind of the job which is basically

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it was a professional rat god love them like

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so where you grew up was that in an urban setting

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or was it more rural so where i was born was

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a kind of suburbs uh the suburbs of cork and

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then when i was four uh my parents bought a house

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bought their first house and we moved out to

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kind of outside the suburbs so it was in yeah

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very much rural but it was still only like 15

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minutes from the city so i live next to like

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there was probably three houses next to us then

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across the road from us there was like a pig

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farm and next to us they grew maize and they

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also used to have cows in there so we very much

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grew up in the countryside Which at the time

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as a four -year -old, I was absolutely raging

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about because I thought they were ruining my

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life moving us out of the city. But it was actually

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like turned out to be the best thing that could

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have happened. It was really nice. And we had

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the best of both worlds because as I said, we're

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only like a 15 minute drive from the city if

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we did want to go in. And we went to school in

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the city as well. So we kind of lived in between

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the city and kind of rural Ireland, which is

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nice. I grew up on a farm myself outside Bath,

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and I was actually just talking to my wife about

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this yesterday. There was a lot of time where

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I was just on my own. I had siblings as well,

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but you're out in the fields and you're climbing

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trees or you're mucking out stables or whatever

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it is, compared to the distractions and the information

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barrage that a lot of our young people are exposed

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to now. When you reflect back, did that environment...

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kind of feed the fire when it came to the introspection

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that you're known for now that's a really good

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question um i would say like it has to have whether

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i was aware of it or not because yeah inherently

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like you know you're even that stuff that i take

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for granted nailed back in cities like you go

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to when you're going to sleep at night it's quiet

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and you have time to think Whereas like if you're

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in the kind of city environment, there's always

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something going on and there's always something

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to be distracted by. So I think like living in

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a place where everything's a lot slower and people

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give time to doing nothing. And I think that's

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really important for that introspective piece

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or for art, like allowing yourself time to do

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nothing is massively important. And I think.

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because of technology because of our phones we

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avoid doing nothing all the time we're like terrified

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to be bored but i find that that's where all

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the ideas come from because your brain tries

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to like entertain itself in that sense but to

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get back to your question i think yeah i like

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it's hard to say because i don't have the comparison

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like it would be great if there was two versions

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of me that grew up one in the city one in the

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in the in the rural ireland to see um how they

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both panned out but i would say if i had to hazard

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a guess it has had a massive impact yeah so what

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about kind of sports activities what were you

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doing during those school ages back then i was

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very uninterested in sport i tried a lot of them

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until i found basketball and once i found basketball

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my whole life changed like it was like I finally

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understood why everyone else likes sport. Like

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this was my sport. And I had like a, I mean,

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I was terrible at the start, but I definitely

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had a natural curiosity and like a desire to

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get better at it. And I just became massively

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obsessed with basketball to the point that I

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ended up playing. If I started playing at 11,

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I only stopped playing during the pandemic. So

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that would have been like 17 years of my life.

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And I got to the level of playing like. super

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league which is the highest level you can play

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in Ireland um so that that just consumed my entire

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teenage life I was just I kind of up until I

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found basketball it was like head in the books

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reading all the time I was writing a lot as a

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child found basketball threw all that stuff out

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the window and I was like this is now the most

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important thing in my life um but beyond that

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yeah I didn't I was terrible at football then

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there's the GAA in Ireland which are kind of

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our own you know in -house sports really bad

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at those but i just seemed to be good at basketball

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so i stuck with that and pretended no other sport

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existed what about writing i've heard you talking

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about you know very very young writing your first

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poem i think it was in your ted talk yeah so

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i suppose what precedes the writing is the reading

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and Since I was able to read, which was around

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three or four, I always had a book. Like I was

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always reading. I was reading before bed. I was

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reading when I woke up in the morning. Anytime

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I kind of had moments to read, I read. And granted,

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like in the 90s, this was a lot easier because

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you didn't have your streaming services and your

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Netflix. So there was kind of nothing else to

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do unless there was something I wanted to watch

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on at the right time. So yeah, just reading all

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the time. And then, yeah, the first poem. was

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about a monkey because I remember as a kid I

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was obsessed with monkeys so I just wanted to

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write a poem about them and then I wrote my first

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short story which was like very probably like

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offensive to Irish people because it was about

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a leprechaun so I was kind of attacking my own

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people in a sense but it was about a leprechaun

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whatever saving the world etc and then from there

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like in english i always wanted to do the creative

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answer like write the short story write the essay

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that was all i that was what i was most interested

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in so writing was always there and i remember

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even my mother say when i was 13 she turned to

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me she dropped me to school one morning and she

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was like um i don't know what it's gonna look

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like or whatever but you're gonna be doing she

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was like you're gonna be working in writing in

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some capacity when you're older whether it's

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journalism whether it's like writing books and

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like sure i was 13 i was like will you go away

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like that's total nonsense like but as it happened

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she predicted the future so what were you dreaming

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of becoming when you were in the school age well

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like i definitely had uh aspirations to be a

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professional basketball player and be in the

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NBA I think that everyone who was on my team

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you know had those aspirations which is a high

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tall order for like an Irish kid because we're

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not inherently like the most adapted to basketball

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but having said that like we have produced a

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lot of great basketball players there's a few

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playing in the states um CJ Flood is actually

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playing in the G League at the moment and he's

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from uh the north of Ireland so like yeah that

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was the aspiration though was this the equivalent

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of like my brother wanted to be playing for Liverpool

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I wanted to play for you know the New York Knicks

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or something um but that yeah that was just a

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dream really I suppose like and this is something

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I actually struggled with as a kid because when

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I was When you're 18 in Ireland, you kind of

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have to decide what you're going to do with the

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rest of your life then and there, because, you

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know, you have to decide based on your test scores,

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what college degree you're going to do. And then

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that basically becomes your path. And I didn't

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have a clue. Like, I had no idea what I wanted

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to do. And I was really jealous of people like

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my brother, because he knew fairly early he wanted

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to be an engineer and went on and became an engineer.

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Whereas I was just kind of like. I could be a

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physio or I could do psychology or I could go

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into computer science or I could go into business.

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Like I just didn't have any clue at all, which

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is good and bad, I suppose. Well, you mentioned

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about obviously losing a best friend when you

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were 17. So let's kind of go back in time a little

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bit first. Tell me about your friend and then

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let's kind of walk through losing him. Yeah,

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so Irby was originally from Chicago and his his

00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:11.799
family emigrated to Ireland when he was very

00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.980
young, like he would have been three or four.

00:14:15.019 --> 00:14:20.259
And I didn't meet him till I was 13. So and the

00:14:20.259 --> 00:14:22.899
reason how I met him was I was in the first year.

00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:25.059
He was in second year. He was in school. He was

00:14:25.059 --> 00:14:27.059
in the same year as my brother. And they were

00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:29.240
in the you know, we're all in the same school.

00:14:29.659 --> 00:14:33.909
And every year to first year. basketball players

00:14:33.909 --> 00:14:36.690
like the two best players were asked to play

00:14:36.690 --> 00:14:38.929
with the second year team as well so you could

00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:41.409
like play up a year so I was one of those players

00:14:41.409 --> 00:14:44.590
and at the start I remember Irby didn't like

00:14:44.590 --> 00:14:46.610
kind of the whole team didn't like me because

00:14:46.610 --> 00:14:48.110
it was like oh what's the first year doing playing

00:14:48.110 --> 00:14:50.529
with us like whatever but then they then they

00:14:50.529 --> 00:14:52.429
found out I was I could actually play and it

00:14:52.429 --> 00:14:55.429
was actually useful um and that's where me and

00:14:55.429 --> 00:14:57.629
Irby kind of began our friendship it was very

00:14:57.629 --> 00:15:01.690
much centered around basketball and after that

00:15:01.690 --> 00:15:03.889
like We'd spend most of our time either playing

00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:06.029
basketball, if the weather allowed it, outside

00:15:06.029 --> 00:15:07.909
one of our houses, or we'd be inside playing

00:15:07.909 --> 00:15:13.990
NBA 2K or something. So that's how we met. And

00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:16.389
we just got really close really quick. And it

00:15:16.389 --> 00:15:20.779
was just a really like... just a light and like

00:15:20.779 --> 00:15:23.200
fun friendship you know we just we laughed a

00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.019
lot we you know the things teenage boys talk

00:15:26.019 --> 00:15:27.940
about like talking about girls we liked what

00:15:27.940 --> 00:15:30.399
we're gonna do at the weekend uh who was gonna

00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.480
get us naggins when we went drinking all this

00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.220
kind of you know stuff you do as a teenager um

00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:38.799
and we hung out together in a group with my older

00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.340
brother Killian and two other lads that were

00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:43.200
in their year as well so there was kind of five

00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.679
of us and then in the wider group there was like

00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.100
you know half a cork it was whatever we all kind

00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:51.440
of hung out together in a sense but uh it was

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.419
the five of us and we were really like tightening

00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:55.340
we did everything like staying in each other's

00:15:55.340 --> 00:15:57.240
houses and just staying up all night and just

00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.720
just being teenage boys like um and i suppose

00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.559
like to contextualize why well i mean suicide

00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:10.039
is always traumatic but we were lucky that like

00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:14.419
there was there hadn't been much tragedy in our

00:16:14.419 --> 00:16:17.000
lives. There was a few guys we knew who'd lost

00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.899
their fathers quite early in life, which was

00:16:19.899 --> 00:16:23.460
really hard. And there was a few people who were

00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:26.100
like, we knew in our, in our school classes that

00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:29.100
were quite sick, but we hadn't really experienced

00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:33.980
like real grief or like, like devastating heartbreak

00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:37.440
beyond girlfriends breaking up with us or whatever.

00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.909
So then, yeah, I mean, when irby died it was

00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:46.690
really painful one because he was gone and two

00:16:46.690 --> 00:16:51.549
i felt so guilty because i had no idea he was

00:16:51.549 --> 00:16:54.629
struggling and and no one did like no one it

00:16:54.629 --> 00:16:56.529
was such a surprise that it happened because

00:16:56.529 --> 00:16:59.750
none of us even like questioned that he was struggling

00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:02.649
with something and i suppose that's the terrifying

00:17:02.649 --> 00:17:04.730
thing about depression and having got a true

00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:08.079
true myself i can attest to it that like You

00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.680
can really act like everything's fine. You can

00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.859
put on the show. You can, you know, Irby was

00:17:12.859 --> 00:17:16.319
always out with us at the weekends. He was always

00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.619
playing basketball. He was always having fun,

00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.859
laughing, you know, texting girls, all the stuff

00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:25.079
everyone was doing. But behind all of that, he

00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.940
was having a really hard time. And he ended up

00:17:28.940 --> 00:17:33.140
taking his own life. When you look back now,

00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:35.940
obviously, you know, a lot longer, excuse me,

00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.380
a lot later, With the mental health conversation

00:17:39.380 --> 00:17:41.980
having evolved hugely, certainly over the last

00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:45.460
10 years or so, were there any elements of his

00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:47.940
upbringing, of his surroundings that you think,

00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:49.880
you know, were contributing to this, even though

00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.440
he was wearing that mask that so many of us put

00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:57.759
on? Yeah, look, there's a lot of factors like

00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.299
that. Looking back now, you can kind of see it.

00:18:01.339 --> 00:18:05.680
So one was like, Irby wasn't very interested

00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:08.700
in school. like wasn't just wasn't his thing

00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:10.299
and i mean a lot of kids aren't interested in

00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:13.519
school but he would have got a lot of pressure

00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:18.079
from like a parental level um about his academic

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.960
work and i remember he was even switched school

00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:22.680
he was switched out of our school for a couple

00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.299
of years and brought back because he wasn't like

00:18:25.299 --> 00:18:29.529
achieving what was wanted at home So I think

00:18:29.529 --> 00:18:31.410
the, and then like the year he took his own life

00:18:31.410 --> 00:18:33.970
was the year he was doing his like final exams

00:18:33.970 --> 00:18:35.750
of secondary school. So they're like the biggest

00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:38.049
exams you sit in Ireland as a teenager, it's

00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:39.930
called a leave insert. So he was going to, so

00:18:39.930 --> 00:18:43.569
he took his own life in January and the exams

00:18:43.569 --> 00:18:46.650
were in May and the pre -exams, like the mocks

00:18:46.650 --> 00:18:49.710
were coming up in February. So all that was like

00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:52.869
in his head and like, he was just, he hated school,

00:18:53.009 --> 00:18:54.690
didn't study, didn't like it. So I think that.

00:18:55.869 --> 00:18:58.509
was a major thing and you know i've been talking

00:18:58.509 --> 00:19:00.730
about it a lot recently how like the leave insert

00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:03.950
can be dangerous for teenagers like because it

00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:06.670
can cause them to like want to kill themselves

00:19:06.670 --> 00:19:10.269
which is not really like conducive with like

00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:13.950
a good education and well -being that like the

00:19:13.950 --> 00:19:16.329
system is causing teenagers to want to kill themselves

00:19:16.329 --> 00:19:22.069
so that was a major factor um and then like i

00:19:22.069 --> 00:19:24.509
think like yeah to be honest that's like i think

00:19:25.490 --> 00:19:28.329
what, like, I can't know this is speculation

00:19:28.329 --> 00:19:30.349
because he didn't leave a note or anything, but

00:19:30.349 --> 00:19:34.869
I think it was mainly that is what pushed him

00:19:34.869 --> 00:19:38.869
over the edge. This is an important part of this

00:19:38.869 --> 00:19:40.809
whole mental health conversation. A lot of people

00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:42.529
that come on the show, you know, they're first

00:19:42.529 --> 00:19:44.690
responders, they're military members. So, you

00:19:44.690 --> 00:19:46.970
know, there's other areas of trauma that are

00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:50.089
very acute as well. But I had a high school student

00:19:50.089 --> 00:19:54.309
on Emma Benoit and it was her. that was the big

00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:57.589
thing for her she had a you know loving um upbringing

00:19:57.589 --> 00:20:00.349
but it was the pressure of school and she was

00:20:00.349 --> 00:20:02.950
you know a beautiful girl a cheerleader if i

00:20:02.950 --> 00:20:05.309
remember rightly and and she survived her suicide

00:20:05.309 --> 00:20:07.549
attempt she's she's in a wheelchair now but she

00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:10.029
became a mental health advocate but it was that

00:20:10.029 --> 00:20:13.069
pressure of not knowing and i had another um

00:20:13.069 --> 00:20:16.599
guest on angela lee who's uh a martial artist,

00:20:16.819 --> 00:20:19.319
she had her own attempts and survived. She kind

00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.259
of deliberately crashed her car and then she

00:20:21.259 --> 00:20:24.180
lost her younger sister to suicide. And in that

00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:27.599
household, there was, again, this pressure in

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:29.880
the martial arts world for these two girls to

00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:32.660
be, you know, world champions, as it were. So

00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:35.839
not saying this was the case with Irby specifically,

00:20:36.019 --> 00:20:39.000
but the danger of living vicariously through

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.460
your kids, putting expectations on them that

00:20:41.460 --> 00:20:44.910
maybe just don't fit their specific road. as

00:20:44.910 --> 00:20:48.170
a parent is something to be mindful of and certainly

00:20:48.170 --> 00:20:51.569
then kind of looking for the signs if that kind

00:20:51.569 --> 00:20:54.170
of expectation is putting undue pressure on.

00:20:56.329 --> 00:20:59.049
Yeah, no, it's a great point. Like, and, and

00:20:59.049 --> 00:21:01.289
the thing with Irby, like he was a, he was an

00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:03.470
incredible athlete, you know, like, and I think

00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:07.609
the issue with school is like, we kind of tell

00:21:07.609 --> 00:21:10.430
kids there's only one way to be smart. Like there's

00:21:10.430 --> 00:21:12.789
only one way to have intelligence. Whereas like,

00:21:12.930 --> 00:21:16.420
you know, in school, you're not tested for like

00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:19.119
your integrity or your compassion or your artistic

00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.599
creativity or your like ability to play sports.

00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.099
Like none of them are like seen as like, obviously

00:21:25.099 --> 00:21:27.180
you can do them in school, but none of them are

00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:30.039
seen as like a basis for your future. Everything's

00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.640
based on the books and just like, that doesn't

00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:34.500
fit, like not everyone's going to fit that mold.

00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:37.000
Like, so yeah, it's a really important point.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.200
All right. So at 17 years old, you kind of thrust

00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.140
into this, you know, realization of mortality

00:21:44.140 --> 00:21:47.839
you've had this tragic loss of a friend how does

00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.220
that impact your own grief and mental health

00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:59.759
journey and so it was really like true confusing

00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:01.980
because like there was a big part of me that

00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:08.079
felt like i'd let her be down um mainly because

00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:11.700
So basically, he took his life on a Wednesday,

00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:16.119
right? And we used to get a half day on a Wednesday.

00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.500
And he came up to me, so it was lunchtime on

00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:21.559
the Wednesday. And we'd often hang out on that

00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:23.700
day, but also sometimes we'd go hang out with

00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:25.119
different friends. And he came up to me and he

00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.519
was like, hey, do you want to get lunch? And

00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.900
I had other plans. I was going into town to meet

00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:32.819
some friends from my own year. So I was like,

00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:34.779
oh, I have other plans. I can't go for lunch,

00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:36.420
but I'll see you at training tonight. We had

00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:38.539
training that evening. And he was like, oh yeah,

00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.559
there's no worries. Like, and often like, you

00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.660
know, one of, we'd either go for lunch or he'd

00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:44.500
say he couldn't or I'd say I couldn't. So it

00:22:44.500 --> 00:22:46.420
wasn't like a massive big deal. Like it was just

00:22:46.420 --> 00:22:49.279
like, can't go for lunch. And then it happened

00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.259
that that night was the night he took his own

00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:55.359
life. And like, similar to the other stories

00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.039
you were talking about a while ago, he didn't

00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:00.640
actually end up dying. So they got to him in

00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.200
time and then he died in the hospital as a result

00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.680
of complications of what he did. um so I had

00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:11.599
that kind of guilt hanging over me um and my

00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:17.519
yeah like I was grieving but very quickly I I

00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.559
stopped feeling anything like there was no anger

00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.099
there was no sadness there was no happiness um

00:23:24.099 --> 00:23:27.400
and I like because there was no mental health

00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:32.160
education I just thought that's how grief was

00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.059
that's how it worked and I just pull out of it

00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:36.460
and then it you know as the years went down i

00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:40.039
got to 18 i still wasn't feeling anything and

00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.380
and then i just thought that's how adults were

00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:44.599
like i was like okay adults just don't feel anything

00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:46.420
and they just pretend and they like you know

00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:48.640
they they act out the emotions they're expected

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.240
to and i was like i was emotionally intelligent

00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:53.880
enough to know what emotions people expected

00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.299
from me so like if i got a good exam result i'd

00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.619
know that they want me to be happy so i'd like

00:23:59.619 --> 00:24:01.539
perform that or if we won a match or if we lost

00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:06.210
the match whatever so The fallout was like, I

00:24:06.210 --> 00:24:12.150
was depressed for four years and it took me,

00:24:12.250 --> 00:24:14.890
I went on to study applied psychology because

00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:17.190
I was like, right, I don't want to like go the

00:24:17.190 --> 00:24:18.869
same route. I don't want to get to a place where

00:24:18.869 --> 00:24:22.970
I feel like I want to die. And maybe if I learn

00:24:22.970 --> 00:24:25.269
this stuff, I can help other people to also not

00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:27.650
get to the same place. So I studied applied psychology

00:24:27.650 --> 00:24:31.970
in Cork, in University College Cork. And it was

00:24:31.970 --> 00:24:35.519
during that. that I learned about emotional anhedonia

00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.140
and that was a can be a symptom of depression

00:24:38.140 --> 00:24:40.039
which is you stop feeling anything you just go

00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:42.920
completely numb and I realized that's what I

00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:45.500
had at the time so this was maybe when I was

00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:51.200
20 but I continued to deny I had depression because

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.460
of like self -stigma so I thought at this time

00:24:54.460 --> 00:24:57.220
in my life i would have viewed like having a

00:24:57.220 --> 00:24:59.839
mental illness as like a failure or that i'd

00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:01.900
let my parents down or let my friends down and

00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:03.900
people would treat me differently so i ignored

00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:07.700
it for a further year until i had this massive

00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:09.559
panic attack and it was my first panic attack

00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:12.660
ever in the street on a night out in cork and

00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:15.640
it just came out nowhere and it was so horrible

00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.900
and the next day i was like right i can't deny

00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.180
this anymore i need to get help i'm not dealing

00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:25.660
with irby's death and like instead of dealing

00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:27.380
with it you know i was like i was in college

00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:29.259
so i was drinking a lot there was a lot of casual

00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:33.559
sex going on there was infrequent drug used to

00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.559
be very didn't really turn to drugs which thank

00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:37.359
god i didn't because i was still playing basketball

00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:39.000
so that was kind of keeping me on the straight

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:44.619
and narrow but um yeah it just really like irby's

00:25:44.619 --> 00:25:47.630
death like completely changed the next four or

00:25:47.630 --> 00:25:50.049
five years of my life and like shaped my college

00:25:50.049 --> 00:25:52.869
experience and like i basically wasn't feeling

00:25:52.869 --> 00:25:56.349
anything for four or five years and it's interesting

00:25:56.349 --> 00:25:59.549
to look back and like a lot of that time is really

00:25:59.549 --> 00:26:03.690
hard to remember because i think you need an

00:26:03.690 --> 00:26:06.549
emotional reaction to situations to remember

00:26:06.549 --> 00:26:09.650
them like to encode the memory so because i wasn't

00:26:09.650 --> 00:26:12.130
feeling anything like nothing really like nothing

00:26:12.130 --> 00:26:15.589
spiked so there's it's all kind of blurry Whereas

00:26:15.589 --> 00:26:18.190
now, thank God, I'm back in an emotional life

00:26:18.190 --> 00:26:21.210
and I can remember the good and the bad moments

00:26:21.210 --> 00:26:24.029
in like a lot more detail, which is thank God

00:26:24.029 --> 00:26:27.470
for that. So you have this panic attack, you

00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:29.630
know, you have this kind of, you know, aha moment

00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:32.109
at that point. Where does that send you as far

00:26:32.109 --> 00:26:35.509
as starting to find the healing modalities that

00:26:35.509 --> 00:26:40.309
work for you? So luckily, I was doing a course

00:26:40.309 --> 00:26:43.009
in psychology, and I was with my friends. So

00:26:43.009 --> 00:26:46.009
they took me home, and then the next day, they

00:26:46.009 --> 00:26:47.849
were like, you should just go to student counselling.

00:26:47.910 --> 00:26:50.130
There's a student counselling service, and a

00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:52.190
lot of them were using it. So there was no stigma

00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:56.250
between us about going to therapy, which was

00:26:56.250 --> 00:26:58.170
huge, especially at that time. We're talking

00:26:58.170 --> 00:27:02.789
2014, so 11 years ago. It's a completely different

00:27:02.789 --> 00:27:06.779
landscape for encouraging getting help. so that

00:27:06.779 --> 00:27:08.400
was fine my friends were like yeah here's the

00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.279
links here's how you sign up etc um and then

00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:14.079
the next step for me and this is probably the

00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.519
biggest step is like i was really scared to tell

00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:19.420
my parents like really really nervous to tell

00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:21.359
my parents because again like the stigma and

00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:23.279
the anxiety i was like they're gonna think there's

00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.680
something wrong with me they're gonna think i

00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.160
let them down they're gonna be disappointed so

00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.799
i eventually like worked up enough courage to

00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.799
tell them over dinner one evening and like the

00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:35.940
opposite was true like they just wanted me to

00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:38.519
be safe and be happy and to get whatever help

00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:40.500
i needed just to like get back on track so like

00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:45.619
once i had that kind of hurdle jumped and i had

00:27:45.619 --> 00:27:47.759
them on my back i was like right we just need

00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.220
to like like we do this like with basketball

00:27:50.220 --> 00:27:52.519
training or studying like we just now need to

00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:54.920
just go and do this and just like work at it

00:27:55.690 --> 00:27:58.069
So the first, so then I started going to counseling

00:27:58.069 --> 00:28:01.549
in college and I was there for, I think it was

00:28:01.549 --> 00:28:04.650
like four or five months, maybe six months. And

00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:07.390
during this time is when I discovered journaling,

00:28:07.490 --> 00:28:12.789
which, you know, because my therapist was kind

00:28:12.789 --> 00:28:15.490
of said that like, because you're like not connecting

00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:17.549
with emotions and you can't identify emotions,

00:28:17.809 --> 00:28:19.769
writing down everything you're feeling in your

00:28:19.769 --> 00:28:21.609
body and the thoughts you're feeling will help

00:28:21.609 --> 00:28:24.840
you to like kind of reignite that system. And

00:28:24.840 --> 00:28:27.539
the way I talk about it is, like, emotions for

00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:29.680
me at this time are kind of like, say if you

00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:31.660
and one of your friends are, like, in a pool

00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:33.740
and you both go underwater and your friend starts

00:28:33.740 --> 00:28:36.140
shouting at you underwater. Like, you can see

00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:38.140
that he's shouting at you, but you can't hear

00:28:38.140 --> 00:28:40.000
anything he's saying. Like, it's completely unintelligible.

00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.579
That's kind of how emotions felt. I was like,

00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:44.319
I know there's something there, but I don't know

00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.940
what it is. And it's not very strong. And so

00:28:46.940 --> 00:28:49.000
writing it down kind of helped to, like, fan

00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:51.059
the flame of the emotion. And I was able to,

00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.619
like, be like, OK, this is sadness. And this

00:28:53.619 --> 00:28:55.299
is what sadness feels like and kind of just hold

00:28:55.299 --> 00:28:57.039
on to it because I was like, it's better to feel

00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:02.160
sad than to feel nothing. And through that process

00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.299
is kind of how I started writing poetry then,

00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.819
because my journaling style was very just like

00:29:06.819 --> 00:29:11.900
shorthand, like small bursts of kind of thought.

00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:16.019
And that's kind of what my poetry style is like.

00:29:16.099 --> 00:29:18.599
And I remember one of my journal entries I just

00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:21.640
sent to a poet friend of mine in the UK and she

00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.549
was like. uh you could like probably get this

00:29:24.549 --> 00:29:26.809
published in like a journal or something and

00:29:26.809 --> 00:29:28.609
i was like oh i wasn't sending it for you for

00:29:28.609 --> 00:29:33.049
that reason or whatever uh but so i did i sent

00:29:33.049 --> 00:29:34.970
that to a couple of journals and i got that poem

00:29:34.970 --> 00:29:40.349
published uh when i was like 22 or 23 and that's

00:29:40.349 --> 00:29:43.970
kind of my foray into writing begins then because

00:29:43.970 --> 00:29:46.529
i suppose at this time as well in tandem with

00:29:46.529 --> 00:29:48.910
that i'd started the blog thoughts too big so

00:29:48.910 --> 00:29:51.519
i was writing for men to help specifically and

00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:53.839
that didn't really feel like creative writing

00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:57.160
it kind of felt more like a I don't know like

00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:58.980
a vocation or I was preaching or I was trying

00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:00.619
to help or whatever I was trying to do but it

00:30:00.619 --> 00:30:04.819
didn't feel like creative and I would have never

00:30:04.819 --> 00:30:06.740
really thought of myself as creative I'd put

00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:09.900
myself in the boxes like good at school and decent

00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:12.240
at basketball I was kind of I took myself out

00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.380
of the creative box even though like now looking

00:30:14.380 --> 00:30:17.180
back I'm in like I'm inherently obviously creative

00:30:17.180 --> 00:30:22.250
so that's So going to therapy, it got me out

00:30:22.250 --> 00:30:26.250
of depression and introduced me to potentially

00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:31.369
playing around with writing. It's funny you say

00:30:31.369 --> 00:30:36.170
that it was the preconceived idea that your parents

00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:39.710
would have shame about how you were feeling that

00:30:39.710 --> 00:30:43.329
was the barrier. And so often when we actually

00:30:43.329 --> 00:30:47.140
do the thing. 90, 95 % of the time, it's not

00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:50.019
the outcome that we're thinking of. I did skydiving

00:30:50.019 --> 00:30:54.779
in New Zealand years ago. And before, I was absolutely

00:30:54.779 --> 00:30:57.119
shitting myself, metaphorically and physically.

00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:00.740
And it was my girlfriend at the time that got

00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:04.000
me signed up. Went up in the plane. Now you're

00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.079
hanging outside a plane, strapped to a dude.

00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:09.279
He flings you out. By the time I landed, I was

00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:11.500
ready to become an instructor. I was just like,

00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:13.779
this is incredible. You know what I mean? So

00:31:13.779 --> 00:31:17.180
it's so crazy how that fear of is crippling.

00:31:17.259 --> 00:31:20.980
And most of the time, this example especially,

00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.599
let's just stay with men for a moment. Men think,

00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:26.339
oh, what will people think of me? They'll think

00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:29.400
I'm weak. But when they actually just reach out

00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.940
and say, I'm struggling, it's the opposite. Most

00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:36.240
people want to help. No, and it's something I

00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.420
say to people. now because a lot of times people

00:31:39.420 --> 00:31:41.819
are like saying oh but like i don't want to burden

00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:45.460
someone with the conversation like i like i don't

00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:47.680
want to like make like ruin someone's day by

00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:49.720
talking to them a bit like how i'm feeling and

00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.000
i'm like most people will be glad they're the

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:55.259
person you came to like they'll get something

00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:57.440
out of like the fact that you can depend on them

00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.940
like that will be big for them because it's always

00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:01.640
big for me if someone comes to me and tells me

00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:04.400
something i'm like well thanks for like trusting

00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:07.039
me with this And for thinking like I'm someone

00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.240
you could tell. So like, it's very rare that

00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.960
like, I don't think I've ever heard of a case

00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.700
unless it's like an abusive relationship where

00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:17.500
someone's spoken about their mental health and

00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:19.019
the other person has been like, will you stop?

00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:21.339
I actually don't want to hear this. Like it's,

00:32:21.339 --> 00:32:23.140
it's never really happened in my experience.

00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:26.900
And, but like, as you said, it was the fear of

00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:31.519
like, of what could happen and my kind of preconceived

00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.200
anxiety. of the worst possible outcome that was

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.119
stopping me from getting help for a long time.

00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:40.960
What I've learned as we progress through, because

00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.319
it's funny, you said 2014, you know, as far as

00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:45.779
the, you know, kind of pre this conversation

00:32:45.779 --> 00:32:49.000
is true, I would say 2016 was about the time

00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:51.619
we started having this in the first responder

00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:54.640
community in America, at least. And the ones

00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.759
that were the naysayers, the ones that were out

00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:58.859
there saying, it's just weakness, it's being

00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:01.529
a pussy, whatever. I know now are the ones that

00:33:01.529 --> 00:33:04.509
were probably hurting the most. And so actually,

00:33:04.589 --> 00:33:06.990
if you do get that kind of response, obviously,

00:33:07.009 --> 00:33:09.829
firstly, find someone else to lean into. But

00:33:09.829 --> 00:33:12.609
then secondly, check on that person because they're

00:33:12.609 --> 00:33:16.529
still stuck in that old way of thinking. As I

00:33:16.529 --> 00:33:18.789
said, like the number of people who aren't ready

00:33:18.789 --> 00:33:20.869
is getting smaller, but like you're still going

00:33:20.869 --> 00:33:24.390
to have backlash. And I'm sure like. in the communities

00:33:24.390 --> 00:33:26.589
you're in like there's probably still people

00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:28.829
who are like sure what does james do and like

00:33:28.829 --> 00:33:30.789
why is he talking about this and like even my

00:33:30.789 --> 00:33:34.829
own content like anything i do about mental health

00:33:34.829 --> 00:33:38.250
invariably there's someone saying like terrible

00:33:38.250 --> 00:33:40.289
stuff about it and like that's always going to

00:33:40.289 --> 00:33:42.369
be the case we're never going to get to 100 but

00:33:42.369 --> 00:33:45.470
we can definitely get to a place where a majority

00:33:45.470 --> 00:33:49.230
of people are like at least open to the possibility

00:33:49.230 --> 00:33:52.940
of this conversation because like a lot of people

00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:55.839
in my life still aren't ready to like be totally

00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:00.460
vulnerable and like i would never expect everyone

00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:03.279
to be like as publicly vulnerable as i've been

00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:07.839
but i would like you know to know or to be assured

00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.000
that like if my friends need to talk they can

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.719
talk that's kind of where we want to get for

00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.519
everyone's like if you need to like you don't

00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.639
have to always be talking but if you need to

00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:20.139
talk that you can i think framing it Which is

00:34:20.139 --> 00:34:22.800
completely true. Framing vulnerability as courage

00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.900
as well. Like it's not cowardice that you're

00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:27.860
struggling. And I mean, if you can come out and

00:34:27.860 --> 00:34:30.400
say, I need help, that's the ultimate courageous

00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.739
act. Yeah. Yeah. Like Andrew Porter is a Irish

00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:37.699
rugby player. He famously said, like, you can

00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:40.039
be strong and vulnerable at the same time. They're

00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:42.260
not like working against each other. And as you

00:34:42.260 --> 00:34:44.780
said, like, sometimes the most strong thing you

00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:48.809
can do is to be like, I'm not. able to do this

00:34:48.809 --> 00:34:52.230
on my own like that takes that takes balls absolutely

00:34:52.230 --> 00:34:55.550
well thinking about your timeline obviously the

00:34:55.550 --> 00:34:59.909
pandemic hit around 2020 what if any impact did

00:34:59.909 --> 00:35:04.369
that have on your healing journey it was definitely

00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:09.110
a bit of a backslide so before that i i did i

00:35:09.110 --> 00:35:11.570
came to dublin briefly to do a master's in linguistics

00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:15.190
and i had i definitely had a backslide in with

00:35:15.190 --> 00:35:18.170
regards to depression then And it's probably

00:35:18.170 --> 00:35:20.969
because I moved to a new city, was out of rhythm

00:35:20.969 --> 00:35:22.869
with a routine, didn't know a lot of people,

00:35:22.969 --> 00:35:25.769
just kind of slid back into like old habits of

00:35:25.769 --> 00:35:31.110
like, I suppose to pre -context that. So the

00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:33.150
first time I had depression, I didn't know about

00:35:33.150 --> 00:35:37.030
it, didn't know I had it. But then I learned

00:35:37.030 --> 00:35:39.190
about it and I learned like what habits and like

00:35:39.190 --> 00:35:41.909
symptoms I was displaying. So when it started

00:35:41.909 --> 00:35:44.969
to backslide during my master's, which would

00:35:44.969 --> 00:35:48.469
have been 2017. I could kind of feel it coming

00:35:48.469 --> 00:35:51.349
in terms of like I was wanting to sleep more.

00:35:51.489 --> 00:35:54.550
I didn't want to go basketball training. When

00:35:54.550 --> 00:35:57.190
I'm experiencing depression, like I find it very

00:35:57.190 --> 00:35:59.050
hard to do really simple things like brush my

00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:01.190
teeth and shower and make my bed and all this

00:36:01.190 --> 00:36:03.909
kind of stuff, like really difficult. So that

00:36:03.909 --> 00:36:06.230
happened and I went back to therapy that time

00:36:06.230 --> 00:36:08.670
and then similar things started happening during

00:36:08.670 --> 00:36:11.250
the pandemic because like I've always relied,

00:36:11.489 --> 00:36:14.710
not exclusively, but like fairly heavily on exercise

00:36:14.710 --> 00:36:17.989
for my mental health. I think like I like I've

00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:19.909
been a gym goer my whole life and I was playing

00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:22.289
basketball still at the time and I've done marathons

00:36:22.289 --> 00:36:24.710
and all that like I find it like not even from

00:36:24.710 --> 00:36:26.130
like I don't really care about the aesthetic

00:36:26.130 --> 00:36:28.789
part of it but it's very much like this is good

00:36:28.789 --> 00:36:31.789
for my mental health and and in the pandemic

00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:34.409
like couldn't go to the gym basketball season

00:36:34.409 --> 00:36:36.570
was cancelled and then there was like you can

00:36:36.570 --> 00:36:38.250
go two kilometers from your house in Ireland

00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:42.309
at one point so I was like starting to seep back

00:36:42.309 --> 00:36:45.800
into those kind of depressive behaviors So I

00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:48.860
started like making a list of like everything

00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:51.420
I could do right now or in the next couple of

00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:53.900
hours that would improve my mental health. And

00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:56.260
this became like what I call like a mental health

00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:58.699
routine. And most of the stuff on it is the exact

00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:00.300
same things that would be on your physical health

00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:02.400
routine. But I just look at them from like a

00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:04.239
mental health perspective. So it's like exercising,

00:37:04.460 --> 00:37:06.159
getting enough sleep, drinking enough water,

00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:08.179
spending time with friends, spending time on

00:37:08.179 --> 00:37:10.369
your own. and they were like the five things

00:37:10.369 --> 00:37:12.650
i was like right if i do all these things as

00:37:12.650 --> 00:37:14.409
often as i can like obviously you're not going

00:37:14.409 --> 00:37:17.389
to spend time with friends every day necessarily

00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:19.230
but like two or three times a week to try and

00:37:19.230 --> 00:37:21.289
spend time with friends i was like if i do all

00:37:21.289 --> 00:37:22.989
these things this is going to give me a baseline

00:37:22.989 --> 00:37:26.750
of well -being um and then i like fill out the

00:37:26.750 --> 00:37:28.489
rest of the list with stuff i like personally

00:37:28.489 --> 00:37:31.420
so for example like i'm a massive marvel nerd

00:37:31.420 --> 00:37:33.599
like love marvel so i'm like right every time

00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.280
a movie's coming out buy a ticket so you have

00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.820
something to look forward to and i think that's

00:37:36.820 --> 00:37:38.360
important having something to look forward to

00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.400
on the horizon and then for me like obviously

00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.980
reading is important writing is important some

00:37:42.980 --> 00:37:44.980
people might hate that so they wouldn't put that

00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:47.260
in their mental health routine but like whatever

00:37:47.260 --> 00:37:50.579
you know gives you a bit of joy to put on your

00:37:50.579 --> 00:37:52.460
mental health routine and that really helped

00:37:52.460 --> 00:37:56.130
and it gave me a kind of like a toolkit of like

00:37:56.130 --> 00:37:58.210
if i was feeling anxious or low that i'd be like

00:37:58.210 --> 00:38:00.409
right i can go through my list and see what i

00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:01.869
haven't been hitting and maybe i'm only getting

00:38:01.869 --> 00:38:03.610
five hours of sleep a night or maybe i'm not

00:38:03.610 --> 00:38:05.849
drinking enough water or i have an exercise in

00:38:05.849 --> 00:38:08.730
two days so it kind of acts as like an alarm

00:38:08.730 --> 00:38:10.750
system in that sense where you're like oh i'm

00:38:10.750 --> 00:38:13.130
i've been feeling anxious now all day what's

00:38:13.130 --> 00:38:16.150
the problem and i can maybe it's something i

00:38:16.150 --> 00:38:18.869
can actually change that will help this and then

00:38:18.869 --> 00:38:20.670
if i'm like feeling anxious a couple of days

00:38:20.670 --> 00:38:22.769
in a row and i'm doing all my mental health stuff

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:25.710
That then alerts me to be like, maybe I need

00:38:25.710 --> 00:38:27.650
to seek further help. Maybe I need to check in

00:38:27.650 --> 00:38:29.690
with my GP or go back to therapy for a couple

00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:32.269
of sessions or whatever it is. It was a really

00:38:32.269 --> 00:38:35.590
simple tool that I developed out of necessity

00:38:35.590 --> 00:38:39.530
that I've been using ever since. It kept me out

00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:42.190
of depression in the pandemic, which was massive.

00:38:43.389 --> 00:38:46.829
That's amazing to hear. Did you ever watch the

00:38:46.829 --> 00:38:51.150
Marvel film Thunderbolts? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

00:38:51.150 --> 00:38:52.510
we're talking about mental health. That was a

00:38:52.510 --> 00:38:54.750
phenomenal film to really kind of shine some

00:38:54.750 --> 00:38:56.250
light on exactly what we've been talking about,

00:38:56.309 --> 00:38:59.349
strength and vulnerability. A hundred percent.

00:38:59.389 --> 00:39:01.230
Like I was, I remember I came into that and I

00:39:01.230 --> 00:39:02.889
was like, I love that the final battle scene

00:39:02.889 --> 00:39:05.449
was a group hug. Like that was like, exactly

00:39:05.449 --> 00:39:09.309
like that, that it was great. Yeah. It was great.

00:39:09.329 --> 00:39:12.900
And like risky as well for like. even in like

00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:15.059
hollywood to be like we're not going to do the

00:39:15.059 --> 00:39:17.380
typical superhero thing we're going to like talk

00:39:17.380 --> 00:39:19.980
about a real mental health issue and address

00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:23.500
it from this angle like so props to them absolutely

00:39:23.500 --> 00:39:26.219
but i think also like you know hearing you talking

00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:28.619
about that obviously you you'd had the ability

00:39:28.619 --> 00:39:30.719
to really create a plan i think there's some

00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:32.820
great things sleep deprivation is something i

00:39:32.820 --> 00:39:34.900
talk about all the time for example so that alone

00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:38.619
can massively impact your mental health but um

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.980
retroactively looking at what was done well during

00:39:42.980 --> 00:39:45.679
COVID and what was done poorly, you know, and

00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:48.059
there's a massive mental health ripple effect

00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:50.719
from the isolation, the shutdowns, the loss of

00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:53.780
autonomy that I think we need to learn from.

00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.019
We need to reflect and say, okay, next time,

00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:57.780
because it will happen again, there'll be another

00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:00.469
virus that's going to be predatory. What can

00:40:00.469 --> 00:40:02.550
we do differently so we protect the vulnerable,

00:40:02.630 --> 00:40:05.190
but we don't, you know, have this long -term

00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:07.949
effect on everyone else that was kind of, you

00:40:07.949 --> 00:40:10.989
know, kept from their passions of sports and

00:40:10.989 --> 00:40:14.869
nature and community and relationships, you know,

00:40:14.869 --> 00:40:18.369
and that way, you know, minimize the long -term

00:40:18.369 --> 00:40:23.590
effect of this. Yeah, because I think you hear

00:40:23.590 --> 00:40:27.289
a lot in the news and stuff about the COVID kids

00:40:27.289 --> 00:40:31.349
or the COVID generation and how as a result of

00:40:31.349 --> 00:40:34.210
babies who were born in the pandemic and spent

00:40:34.210 --> 00:40:36.190
the first two or three years of their life never

00:40:36.190 --> 00:40:38.190
seeing another kid, that they don't know how

00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:41.210
to socialize and they lost a lot of really important

00:40:41.210 --> 00:40:44.809
developmental skills that they just can't get

00:40:44.809 --> 00:40:50.119
back now because of the lockdown. I've always

00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:53.400
been a bit suspicious of, like, they released

00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.840
the suicide statistics for 2020 and 2021 in Ireland.

00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:00.880
And those years, for some reason, just dropped

00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:04.679
dramatically in the statistics. And I'm like,

00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.280
I feel like that's not true. You know, I feel

00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:10.579
like you're kind of, like, fudging the data so

00:41:10.579 --> 00:41:12.320
you don't have to take accountability for the

00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.320
fact that, like, a massive lockdown caused people

00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:15.960
to have serious mental health problems and that

00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.610
resulted in death. Like, obviously... they don't

00:41:18.610 --> 00:41:20.190
want to take responsibility for that and maybe

00:41:20.190 --> 00:41:22.690
that's a bit conspiratorial but like it feels

00:41:22.690 --> 00:41:25.809
unlikely that it would have dropped like i would

00:41:25.809 --> 00:41:27.230
have it would have been more believable if they

00:41:27.230 --> 00:41:29.710
said like oh it's it's the same as last year

00:41:29.710 --> 00:41:32.650
or like slightly more than last year but if it

00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:35.750
dropping in those years is kind of hard to believe

00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:39.059
Well, I mean, there's a running joke that, you

00:41:39.059 --> 00:41:40.659
know, you could be killed in a car crash and

00:41:40.659 --> 00:41:42.679
your death certificate would say COVID. And this

00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:44.820
was happening, you know, a lot. It's being attached

00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:47.380
to everything. And then conversely. So, yeah,

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.840
so say like some, like awfully, like some poor

00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:52.579
young fella took his own life, but he happened

00:41:52.579 --> 00:41:54.780
to be positive for COVID. They would have said

00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:57.380
that was a COVID death. Yeah, exactly. And then

00:41:57.380 --> 00:42:00.500
the other way, then shortly after that, people

00:42:00.500 --> 00:42:02.440
were saying, yeah, if anyone died, oh, it was

00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:05.929
the vaccine. So either way, extremes. It's like,

00:42:05.949 --> 00:42:08.510
no, this person was shot with an arrow or whatever

00:42:08.510 --> 00:42:11.309
it was. It was neither of those. So, yeah, there

00:42:11.309 --> 00:42:13.630
were definitely some. Don't think it was COVID.

00:42:16.110 --> 00:42:18.550
All right. Well, then you alluded as well to,

00:42:18.550 --> 00:42:21.269
you know, counseling your GP. So we're going

00:42:21.269 --> 00:42:22.789
to get to the writing in a moment. I already

00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:24.829
want to dive into the poetry in the books. But

00:42:24.829 --> 00:42:27.650
before we do, what are other tools in your toolbox?

00:42:27.829 --> 00:42:30.090
You talked about hydration and sleep and Marvel

00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:32.469
films. What are other things that have helped

00:42:32.469 --> 00:42:35.170
you negotiate or excuse me, navigate your way

00:42:35.170 --> 00:42:40.280
out of this? well i think like it would be remiss

00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:43.619
and just very dishonest if i didn't um talk about

00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:45.739
writing in this context as well like we don't

00:42:45.739 --> 00:42:48.960
have to get into the weeds of the actual uh what

00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:52.800
i've produced but like genuinely like there is

00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:54.679
something and this is why i'm so drawn to it

00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:56.460
and why i write so much like there is something

00:42:56.460 --> 00:42:59.960
i get from just the act of writing that gives

00:42:59.960 --> 00:43:03.840
me a lot like I might find it hard to spend time

00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:05.760
on my own, but if I'm spending time on my own

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:09.500
and I'm writing and creating, it changes from

00:43:09.500 --> 00:43:12.039
loneliness to solitude in that sense. It does

00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:18.039
give me a massive amount. So that's another big

00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:21.440
tool that's been useful for me. And again, you

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:26.219
watched the TED Talk, so I've talked a lot about

00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:28.059
how creativity is really important for mental

00:43:28.059 --> 00:43:31.239
health. Writing isn't going to be everyone's

00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:34.340
bag. Some people hate writing. I totally understand

00:43:34.340 --> 00:43:36.039
why. A lot of people have trauma from school

00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:40.139
for writing. But having a creative practice,

00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:45.260
I think, whatever it may be, I think is massive.

00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:49.480
And I think for whatever reason, and it's probably

00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:52.679
linked to concepts of masculinity and femininity,

00:43:52.820 --> 00:43:57.000
I feel like men resist a creative practice for...

00:43:57.449 --> 00:44:00.289
the sake of itself like if it's not producing

00:44:00.289 --> 00:44:02.489
something or gaining them something they're like

00:44:02.489 --> 00:44:04.329
what's the point in having creative practice

00:44:04.329 --> 00:44:07.369
but like the times i've just sat down and like

00:44:07.369 --> 00:44:09.289
because i'm really bad at drawing and painting

00:44:09.289 --> 00:44:11.309
but like the times i've sat down and just drawn

00:44:11.309 --> 00:44:13.449
or painted i've gotten a lot of like relaxation

00:44:13.449 --> 00:44:15.289
and like comfort from it and it's just a bit

00:44:15.289 --> 00:44:17.469
of fun like and then you have something that

00:44:17.469 --> 00:44:19.989
you've produced at the end and like i hang some

00:44:19.989 --> 00:44:21.989
of my paintings up and they're truly terrible

00:44:21.989 --> 00:44:24.980
but i'm like i painted that So like, you know,

00:44:24.980 --> 00:44:26.500
there's something there and I think it just gives

00:44:26.500 --> 00:44:28.280
you a lot and it gives you a place to express

00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.199
emotions. And especially, again, talk about men

00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:36.019
when we're, you know, traditionally bad at expressing

00:44:36.019 --> 00:44:38.860
our emotions verbally. Having a creative process

00:44:38.860 --> 00:44:40.699
to put your emotions into and express how you're

00:44:40.699 --> 00:44:43.079
feeling is huge because then you don't, you can,

00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:46.579
in theory, like put the conversation on the long

00:44:46.579 --> 00:44:49.239
finger and express it through your art. And like,

00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:53.219
I constantly do that. with my poetry and with

00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:56.139
my writing and sometimes like I won't even know

00:44:56.139 --> 00:44:58.059
I'm feeling a certain way until I write about

00:44:58.059 --> 00:45:00.079
it and I'm like oh I've been like really stressed

00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.599
about that and I didn't even really consciously

00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:05.400
know until I started writing about it so that's

00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.539
that's a tool like creativity um and then I spoke

00:45:08.539 --> 00:45:11.900
about you know learning to spend time with yourself

00:45:11.900 --> 00:45:15.679
um and I wrote I read this really good book it's

00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:18.280
called Solitude by a guy named Michael Harris

00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:22.340
and he talks about the benefits of solitude um

00:45:22.340 --> 00:45:25.719
and how we've lost the kind of skill for solitude

00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:28.800
in modern life because like you know the example

00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.780
he uses like if you're sitting at home on your

00:45:30.780 --> 00:45:32.820
own and there's no tv on and there's no podcast

00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:35.179
and you're just sitting he's like what's the

00:45:35.179 --> 00:45:36.679
first thing you do it's like within the first

00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:38.719
30 seconds you whip out your phone and you start

00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:41.880
scrolling like we're we're kind of we've conditioned

00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:45.280
ourselves to like be afraid of boredom and he

00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:48.440
talks about like all the massive brain benefits

00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:52.239
of like allowing your brain to go idle and he

00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.280
he cites like how all these great minds like

00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:58.519
your yates and your oscar wilde and your einsteins

00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:01.320
like quote these big long walks they used to

00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:03.619
take and obviously they didn't have podcasts

00:46:03.619 --> 00:46:05.340
back then or anything so they'd just be going

00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:08.079
for walks on their own and they that's when they

00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.300
got their ideas because your your brain starts

00:46:10.300 --> 00:46:12.179
wandering and starts connecting things and then

00:46:12.179 --> 00:46:13.860
that's when they have their moments of like that's

00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.760
how i finished that story or that's how i finished

00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:17.980
that equation or that's how i finished that piece

00:46:17.980 --> 00:46:21.360
of work it's like you do need to find a way to

00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.460
spend time with yourself and i think if you can

00:46:24.460 --> 00:46:27.460
anything that happens you can deal with because

00:46:27.460 --> 00:46:30.079
you're comfortable on your own and this is coming

00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.789
from someone who like when i was depressed the

00:46:33.789 --> 00:46:35.929
very last thing I wanted to do is spend time

00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:37.889
on my own. I avoided it at all costs because

00:46:37.889 --> 00:46:40.449
that's when things were the worst. So I, you

00:46:40.449 --> 00:46:42.750
know, have had to teach myself how to be on my

00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:46.610
own. And it's like a kind of compared to like

00:46:46.610 --> 00:46:49.150
a meditative practice. Like if you've never meditated,

00:46:49.230 --> 00:46:51.150
you don't just sit down and meditate for an hour

00:46:51.150 --> 00:46:55.030
first time. You do like two minutes, five minutes,

00:46:55.269 --> 00:46:57.230
10 minutes, you build it up. So it's the same

00:46:57.230 --> 00:46:58.909
with like learning to be on your own. It's like,

00:46:58.909 --> 00:47:00.570
all right, I'm going to sit here for five minutes

00:47:00.570 --> 00:47:04.260
and with nothing. and see what happens and that's

00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:06.659
how you learn to like i think and yeah spend

00:47:06.659 --> 00:47:09.420
time on your own um because i think like looking

00:47:09.420 --> 00:47:11.480
back if i had that skill during the pandemic

00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:14.440
when we're all on our own if i was like able

00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:17.340
to like spend time with myself it would have

00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:19.780
been a lot easier it still wouldn't have been

00:47:19.780 --> 00:47:21.480
great but it would have been more manageable

00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:23.179
because it'd be like right i know how to spend

00:47:23.179 --> 00:47:26.139
time with myself and i think that is a really

00:47:26.139 --> 00:47:28.360
important point like it is a relationship with

00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:30.550
yourself it's not like you're just on your own

00:47:30.550 --> 00:47:32.530
like it is like how you talk yourself how you

00:47:32.530 --> 00:47:34.610
think like the conversation between you and you

00:47:34.610 --> 00:47:37.730
is a real thing and it's how you get to know

00:47:37.730 --> 00:47:39.449
yourself and what you want and what you don't

00:47:39.449 --> 00:47:40.769
want and what you like and where you want to

00:47:40.769 --> 00:47:44.409
go and like getting to know someone else if you

00:47:44.409 --> 00:47:45.849
want to get to know yourself you have to spend

00:47:45.849 --> 00:47:49.150
the time so i do think of it like that like not

00:47:49.150 --> 00:47:50.869
in a kind of crazy way where i think there's

00:47:50.869 --> 00:47:53.969
two versions of me but like very much like to

00:47:53.969 --> 00:47:56.010
get to know myself i need to spend the time to

00:47:56.010 --> 00:47:59.119
get to know myself so therefore sit down here

00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:03.019
and do nothing. I can relate for several reasons.

00:48:03.099 --> 00:48:05.639
Firstly, when I take my dog for a walk, and that's

00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:09.000
usually twice a day for like 30 minutes, 40 minutes,

00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:12.380
I always leave my phone behind. So that way it's

00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:13.960
not a distraction. I don't listen to music, don't

00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:15.940
listen to podcasts, anything. I just walk my

00:48:15.940 --> 00:48:19.159
dog. And it's amazing how that's when, as you

00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:20.940
said, things will start popping up. And I've

00:48:20.940 --> 00:48:23.860
written two books now. The last one was kind

00:48:23.860 --> 00:48:26.800
of a fiction, pseudo, almost historical fiction.

00:48:27.550 --> 00:48:30.469
And these ideas just come out of nowhere. And

00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:33.889
it's crazy, but you cannot have the capacity

00:48:33.889 --> 00:48:36.050
for, you know, not even original thought, but

00:48:36.050 --> 00:48:39.150
these unique thoughts, if you like, if you've

00:48:39.150 --> 00:48:42.150
got this busy mind. And I use NuCalm, which is

00:48:42.150 --> 00:48:46.349
like a down regulation app that you can use.

00:48:46.409 --> 00:48:49.030
I use Headspace to do meditation. And not again,

00:48:49.110 --> 00:48:51.949
not diligently every single day, but understanding

00:48:51.949 --> 00:48:54.670
when my mind is getting busy, that monkey mind.

00:48:55.210 --> 00:48:58.610
And it's incredible when you force yourself to

00:48:58.610 --> 00:49:03.489
be present, the incredible thoughts and concepts

00:49:03.489 --> 00:49:05.909
that start presenting themselves. But when you're,

00:49:05.909 --> 00:49:08.329
like you said, immediately from the car to the

00:49:08.329 --> 00:49:11.469
TV, to the app, to the podcast, to the whatever,

00:49:11.610 --> 00:49:14.010
you literally haven't given your brain the ability

00:49:14.010 --> 00:49:16.590
to take a breath and go, have you thought about

00:49:16.590 --> 00:49:22.449
this? Yeah, no, like a spot on. a perfect example

00:49:22.449 --> 00:49:24.489
of like the concept Michael Harris is talking

00:49:24.489 --> 00:49:26.909
about and like it is always the case because

00:49:26.909 --> 00:49:28.809
like you can even like there's proof of concept

00:49:28.809 --> 00:49:31.289
in like your own life as well like because I

00:49:31.289 --> 00:49:34.090
never get the idea for like the poem or the book

00:49:34.090 --> 00:49:37.090
when I'm sitting ready to write it's like when

00:49:37.090 --> 00:49:40.929
I'm out chatting to a friend over coffee or I'm

00:49:40.929 --> 00:49:42.969
in the shower or I'm on the walk it's like when

00:49:42.969 --> 00:49:45.269
I'm actually like present in what I'm doing that's

00:49:45.269 --> 00:49:48.590
when the things go like look at this as opposed

00:49:48.590 --> 00:49:50.690
to being like just distracting myself the whole

00:49:50.690 --> 00:49:54.409
time so like yeah absolutely well talk to me

00:49:54.409 --> 00:49:57.050
then about the catharsis so you know when when

00:49:57.050 --> 00:49:59.750
i wrote these books you said about people hate

00:49:59.750 --> 00:50:01.730
right and i had a kind of love hate relationship

00:50:01.730 --> 00:50:04.469
when i got into that flow and things would vomit

00:50:04.469 --> 00:50:06.070
out of my head it was amazing but there were

00:50:06.070 --> 00:50:07.650
other times where i'm looking at the blinking

00:50:07.650 --> 00:50:10.769
cursor and it's you know it's frustrating it's

00:50:10.769 --> 00:50:14.269
the opposite but you know getting this out of

00:50:14.269 --> 00:50:17.329
my mind and onto the page i did feel this kind

00:50:17.329 --> 00:50:19.369
of you know weight off the shoulders element

00:50:19.369 --> 00:50:22.849
so talk to me about the kind of the journey that

00:50:22.849 --> 00:50:25.510
you've had with poetry and how that's been you

00:50:25.510 --> 00:50:28.329
know related to the upswing of your own mental

00:50:28.329 --> 00:50:32.230
health yeah and it's interesting like because

00:50:32.230 --> 00:50:35.670
even to this well not to this day that would

00:50:35.670 --> 00:50:38.610
be untrue but like for most of my writing career

00:50:38.610 --> 00:50:43.699
poetry has been the kind of to equate it to like

00:50:43.699 --> 00:50:46.320
doodling on the side of the page when you don't

00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:49.079
want to do your work like that's that's how poetry

00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:50.920
started like so i'd be writing because i started

00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:53.099
like my first book was a collection of short

00:50:53.099 --> 00:50:56.460
stories and so was the second one and then i

00:50:56.460 --> 00:50:58.519
did a collection of essays on mental health called

00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:01.500
lonely boy which i imagine kind of had the similar

00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:03.619
characters as you whereas like i was getting

00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:05.340
all this stuff out of me it was like doing self

00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:08.119
-therapy it was absolutely amazing to write And

00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:09.920
then, like, when I was getting to that place

00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:11.940
where I couldn't, like, get in the flow, that's

00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:13.699
where I'd be like, right, let's try a poem. It

00:51:13.699 --> 00:51:16.000
was kind of like the step away and do the poem.

00:51:16.780 --> 00:51:19.320
And now, obviously, like, in the last couple

00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:22.900
of years, I've become, the thing I'm known most

00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:26.099
for is my poetry. And I feel like it was kind

00:51:26.099 --> 00:51:29.780
of the mistress in my writing career for so long,

00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:31.480
like I was kind of like doing it on the side.

00:51:32.969 --> 00:51:35.190
So for a long time, I wasn't taking it massively

00:51:35.190 --> 00:51:38.130
seriously. And I think maybe that is part of

00:51:38.130 --> 00:51:40.469
the reason there's been success, because I wasn't

00:51:40.469 --> 00:51:42.849
like overcooking it or overthinking it. I was

00:51:42.849 --> 00:51:44.590
just like, here's a thought, I'll make a poem

00:51:44.590 --> 00:51:46.809
out of it. And then I was like really trying

00:51:46.809 --> 00:51:48.969
hard with the essays and short stories, and they

00:51:48.969 --> 00:51:52.849
were almost harder to get out as a result. So

00:51:52.849 --> 00:51:55.369
it's always been just like a fun thing I've done,

00:51:55.449 --> 00:51:57.670
in particular the poetry, like just a kind of

00:51:57.670 --> 00:52:01.929
fun thing, like let's explore this idea. short

00:52:01.929 --> 00:52:05.369
and creative way to train like and always trying

00:52:05.369 --> 00:52:09.849
to make it like relatable to the sense of like

00:52:09.849 --> 00:52:12.369
it would be great for people to know they're

00:52:12.369 --> 00:52:15.550
not how they're feeling isn't like unique to

00:52:15.550 --> 00:52:17.750
them that like this is a universal human experience

00:52:17.750 --> 00:52:19.849
someone else is feeling it you're not alone in

00:52:19.849 --> 00:52:22.389
this and that's how I've always come at poetry

00:52:22.389 --> 00:52:26.409
and all my writing to a degree um and there is

00:52:26.409 --> 00:52:30.559
just a lot of like you know this feeling of like

00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:34.199
accomplishment when you like finish a piece and

00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:38.139
you really feel like you've kind of grasped the

00:52:38.139 --> 00:52:41.260
entire concept in like 15 lines of poetry or

00:52:41.260 --> 00:52:43.739
like that's how it feels like that's a snapshot

00:52:43.739 --> 00:52:46.559
of how that feels or how that conversation went

00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:49.139
or how that experience was like there it is and

00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:52.460
there's like a real feeling of like we did something

00:52:52.460 --> 00:52:55.019
today like we got something done today and it's

00:52:55.019 --> 00:52:58.519
that and I think that is the probably the feeling

00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:01.300
i'm always chasing is like how can i like i want

00:53:01.300 --> 00:53:05.019
to express this universal human experience in

00:53:05.019 --> 00:53:07.039
the best way possible so that when someone else

00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.079
reads it they'll be like because this is the

00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:12.599
one compliment i get that i have this is my favorite

00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:15.440
thing ever when people say i've always felt like

00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:17.760
that i just never knew how to put it into words

00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.260
that is the best like there's nothing to beat

00:53:20.260 --> 00:53:23.500
that and that's kind of what i get out of it

00:53:23.500 --> 00:53:25.099
like if someone says that to me i'm like right

00:53:25.099 --> 00:53:29.760
we did good Is there a correlation between the

00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:32.219
poems that hit you the hardest that you write

00:53:32.219 --> 00:53:35.780
and the popularity or the impact that they have

00:53:35.780 --> 00:53:40.440
on other people? There's almost a negative correlation,

00:53:40.539 --> 00:53:43.719
to be honest. So it's always the ones it's like,

00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:45.699
for example, like if I ever have boys or that

00:53:45.699 --> 00:53:49.300
day. Well, prior to that, I posted that poem

00:53:49.300 --> 00:53:51.539
before, not that exact same video, but like me

00:53:51.539 --> 00:53:54.320
just to my phone. And it did fine. It got like

00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:57.300
maybe like 15 ,000 views. It was good. And then

00:53:57.300 --> 00:53:59.599
that day that I posted that specific video, it

00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:03.119
was very much a case of like, right, I had that

00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.500
like that whole set that I did, you know, chopped

00:54:06.500 --> 00:54:09.699
up and ready to go. And I had nothing like ready

00:54:09.699 --> 00:54:11.340
to post for that day. So I was like, I'll just

00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:13.460
put this one up. I'll just throw this up. And

00:54:13.460 --> 00:54:15.920
then it like overnight, I woke up the next day

00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:18.139
and I was like, what the hell is going on? So

00:54:18.139 --> 00:54:20.940
like, I didn't expect that to do what it did.

00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:24.280
And that always kind of seems to be the case

00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:27.349
because there's another poem. I have called Tob

00:54:27.349 --> 00:54:32.250
Rónarm, which in Irish means I am sad. And it's

00:54:32.250 --> 00:54:34.469
just an exploration of, you know, how the Irish

00:54:34.469 --> 00:54:39.190
language kind of addresses language because like

00:54:39.190 --> 00:54:43.530
the direct or addresses emotion because the direct

00:54:43.530 --> 00:54:48.050
translation for Tob Rónarm is sadness is upon

00:54:48.050 --> 00:54:51.670
me. So say like sadness isn't like connected

00:54:51.670 --> 00:54:53.710
to you or you're not actually sadness is just

00:54:53.710 --> 00:54:55.369
on you. And it's it's a really lovely way to

00:54:55.369 --> 00:54:59.250
to address emotions. But again, I thought that

00:54:59.250 --> 00:55:02.710
poem was just like middle of the road. I haven't

00:55:02.710 --> 00:55:04.429
really connected with it that much. And then

00:55:04.429 --> 00:55:07.849
that poem also goes up. So like, yeah, it's almost

00:55:07.849 --> 00:55:10.809
like the ones I really love. People are like

00:55:10.809 --> 00:55:13.210
whatever. And the ones I'm kind of like, I don't

00:55:13.210 --> 00:55:16.110
know, people love. So it's it's hard. It's hard

00:55:16.110 --> 00:55:20.539
to navigate. So if you are able to, I would love

00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:23.900
to firstly hear you read If I Ever Have Boys.

00:55:24.059 --> 00:55:25.619
And I want to just talk about that because I

00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:28.440
think, you know, I mean, the popularity I really

00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:33.039
believe is because there is a yearning now to

00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:35.440
make the world better, to make the world kinder

00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:38.590
and, you know, the parents of the world. We're

00:55:38.590 --> 00:55:41.989
at the wheel of this. You can either create kind,

00:55:42.130 --> 00:55:45.469
strong, compassionate children, or we can pour

00:55:45.469 --> 00:55:47.809
this kind of divisiveness that we've been exposed

00:55:47.809 --> 00:55:50.869
to into our kids and then create more issues.

00:55:52.050 --> 00:55:54.969
And then we'll contrast that with one of your

00:55:54.969 --> 00:55:58.849
specific favorite poems, if you'd like. But I'd

00:55:58.849 --> 00:56:01.530
love, if that's okay, to get you to read If I

00:56:01.530 --> 00:56:07.300
Ever Have Boys. Yeah, no problem. So yeah, this

00:56:07.300 --> 00:56:09.840
is the If I Ever Have Boys, which is in response

00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:14.880
to Dangerous Men by Lucas Jones. If I ever have

00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.840
boys, they'll be dangerous men. They'll smile

00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.039
at dogs and children and be a tonic to friends.

00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:23.320
They'll send flowers to their mother just because

00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:25.480
and they'll be a shoulder for many when the world

00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:29.019
is too much. My boys will know that vulnerability

00:56:29.019 --> 00:56:32.019
is strength. They won't battle anger, they'll

00:56:32.019 --> 00:56:35.550
learn how to express. They won't let pride be

00:56:35.550 --> 00:56:37.690
the reason they hide wearing masks while they're

00:56:37.690 --> 00:56:41.309
hurting inside. My boys will be dangerous men.

00:56:42.210 --> 00:56:44.409
They won't stay silent even when it's uncomfortable

00:56:44.409 --> 00:56:46.969
for them. They'll learn that their actions are

00:56:46.969 --> 00:56:48.849
more effective than words, but they'll use their

00:56:48.849 --> 00:56:52.510
voices to amplify the unheard. They'll know that

00:56:52.510 --> 00:56:54.389
love isn't something to perform. They'll see

00:56:54.389 --> 00:56:57.849
beauty in all of its forms. My boys won't grow

00:56:57.849 --> 00:57:00.010
learning to emotionally hide. They'll reshape

00:57:00.010 --> 00:57:02.210
masculinity into something they like, make it

00:57:02.210 --> 00:57:05.030
softer to touch. They'll know that who they are

00:57:05.030 --> 00:57:07.769
is more than enough. They'll know that being

00:57:07.769 --> 00:57:09.510
a man doesn't mean carrying the burden alone.

00:57:10.190 --> 00:57:12.250
They'll learn that an emotional man is a man

00:57:12.250 --> 00:57:15.409
fully grown. They won't settle everything with

00:57:15.409 --> 00:57:18.329
violent swings. They live in truth even when

00:57:18.329 --> 00:57:21.889
that truth stinks. So yeah, if I ever have boys,

00:57:22.210 --> 00:57:26.050
they'll be dangerous men. But the danger they'll

00:57:26.050 --> 00:57:31.329
be won't be the one society meant. I absolutely

00:57:31.329 --> 00:57:35.539
love it. I mean, I... My whole parenting ethos

00:57:35.539 --> 00:57:39.480
has been kindness. So I'll give you a quick backstory.

00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:42.619
When my son was tiny, like a little toddler,

00:57:42.860 --> 00:57:45.199
I'd give him a little pat on the thigh. If he

00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:46.699
did something he wasn't supposed to be doing,

00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:49.860
like a gentle pat on the thigh. And then as he

00:57:49.860 --> 00:57:52.480
got a little bit older, the timeout thing was

00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.519
big here in America. And so the whole purpose

00:57:55.519 --> 00:57:57.699
is you put them in a corner and you say, you

00:57:57.699 --> 00:58:00.079
can't come out. And it's for every year that

00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:01.920
they are old, it's supposed to be a minute in

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:04.880
timeout. And then you tell them, okay, this is

00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.119
why you were in timeout. Do you understand what

00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.780
you did? And then you say, you can leave now.

00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:12.079
Well, my son called my bluff and said, I don't

00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:14.099
want to leave. And I was like, well, fuck, that

00:58:14.099 --> 00:58:18.400
doesn't work anymore. He was at an age where

00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:22.099
he was finally really understand me. And so I

00:58:22.099 --> 00:58:26.260
shifted to, is what you are doing kind? That's

00:58:26.260 --> 00:58:28.280
it. And that was the principle. And he's 18 years

00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:32.380
old now. At the same time, putting him in jujitsu,

00:58:32.380 --> 00:58:35.219
you know, and soccer and CrossFit and all these

00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:38.139
things where he was becoming a strong, you know,

00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:41.260
arguably pseudo dangerous child into an adult.

00:58:41.519 --> 00:58:45.960
And so using that strength when it's needed to

00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:48.800
protect the vulnerable, to speak for the vulnerable,

00:58:48.940 --> 00:58:51.380
I think is a beautiful message. It's what we

00:58:51.380 --> 00:58:53.900
need because I grew up, my generation was the

00:58:53.900 --> 00:58:57.139
Stallone, Schwarzenegger, you know, bodybuilder.

00:58:57.639 --> 00:58:59.639
take everyone out around the back and beat them

00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:01.619
up. That'll teach them a lesson, put the nose

00:59:01.619 --> 00:59:03.699
in the brain, all this bullshit that we were

00:59:03.699 --> 00:59:06.719
taught. And it's rubbish. It's rubbish because

00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:08.659
the World War II generation weren't talking like

00:59:08.659 --> 00:59:11.380
that. You know what I mean? So this is what really

00:59:11.380 --> 00:59:14.460
resonated with me with that poem is I felt like

00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:17.219
it was the exact message that our young boys

00:59:17.219 --> 00:59:22.880
and our parents need to hear in 2025. no i appreciate

00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:24.800
that and i think yeah that that question that

00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:27.000
question is so simple but so effective like is

00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:30.639
what you're doing kind because that's if you

00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:32.599
ask that question you get you get to the root

00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.340
of the problem pretty quickly in every situation

00:59:35.340 --> 00:59:38.619
but with the poem like because obviously like

00:59:38.619 --> 00:59:40.519
there's some people who are like oh this is like

00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:45.539
whatever uh like castrating men or whatever it's

00:59:45.539 --> 00:59:47.980
like reducing men to something that isn't masculine

00:59:47.980 --> 00:59:51.539
i'm like no the point is that like obviously

00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:55.019
men have like an increased like physical ability

00:59:55.019 --> 00:59:59.000
and we have the potential to to hurt basically

00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:02.880
anyone around us and it's to use that like you

01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:04.880
know it's the spider man thing with great power

01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:08.780
comes great responsibility to use that like that

01:00:08.780 --> 01:00:12.579
advantage for like good and to be compassionate

01:00:12.579 --> 01:00:17.179
and kind and to you know if if it's in a crowd

01:00:17.179 --> 01:00:19.480
of say like a crowd and there's mostly men like

01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:21.469
it's probably going to be very dangerous and

01:00:21.469 --> 01:00:24.409
scary for a woman to stand up and speak out but

01:00:24.409 --> 01:00:27.010
like to use your voice as a man to be like this

01:00:27.010 --> 01:00:29.449
isn't okay we can't be doing this like and to

01:00:29.449 --> 01:00:34.010
be that man um is what it's about it's not about

01:00:34.010 --> 01:00:38.650
like reducing men down it's to use what we have

01:00:38.650 --> 01:00:41.369
for like the greater good which i think is like

01:00:41.369 --> 01:00:45.050
inherently obvious for like good men like good

01:00:45.050 --> 01:00:48.400
men know that it's kind of for So it's mainly

01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:50.719
like a reminder to good men and then like a call

01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:53.840
out to bad men to be like, we need to do better.

01:00:55.099 --> 01:00:59.000
I've had a real awakening the last year or so

01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:02.900
where I realize a lot of people that are behind

01:01:02.900 --> 01:01:07.139
very heinous acts are simply themselves suffering

01:01:07.139 --> 01:01:09.659
from mental ill health. Again, it means that

01:01:09.659 --> 01:01:11.920
compassionately, empathetically, that if you

01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:14.710
went back to... You know, whether it's the troubles

01:01:14.710 --> 01:01:16.090
in Northern Ireland, whether it's what's going

01:01:16.090 --> 01:01:18.389
on in Gaza, whether it was the people that were

01:01:18.389 --> 01:01:20.889
behind the decisions for the potato famine, you

01:01:20.889 --> 01:01:24.550
know, 100 plus years ago, whatever it was that

01:01:24.550 --> 01:01:27.369
these people could sleep soundly doing such horrific

01:01:27.369 --> 01:01:29.750
things, whether it's with money, with weapons,

01:01:29.829 --> 01:01:32.969
with their fists, you know, that that is a mental

01:01:32.969 --> 01:01:35.250
health crisis. And I think this, you know, the

01:01:35.250 --> 01:01:38.210
poem is really showing the ultimate courage is

01:01:38.210 --> 01:01:41.409
working on yourself. Like if you heal yourself,

01:01:41.670 --> 01:01:44.809
then you're a baby. able to then be a good parent

01:01:44.809 --> 01:01:47.389
and then start molding your child to be kind

01:01:47.389 --> 01:01:49.730
and compassionate and strong and then you walk

01:01:49.730 --> 01:01:51.969
out into your community and you're kind and compassionate

01:01:51.969 --> 01:01:54.929
and strong but with and i just did a video on

01:01:54.929 --> 01:01:56.829
this yesterday with this kind of rhetoric that's

01:01:56.829 --> 01:01:58.750
banging around at the moment with this kind of

01:01:58.750 --> 01:02:02.869
anti -immigration um you know feeling air quotes

01:02:02.869 --> 01:02:06.179
i just see a lot of a lot of hurt men, you know,

01:02:06.179 --> 01:02:08.820
hurt people, hurt people. And, you know, yes,

01:02:08.940 --> 01:02:12.900
there are areas where some, you know, immigration

01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:17.340
policies need to be overwatched so that we're

01:02:17.340 --> 01:02:19.780
not just opening floodgates for certain groups.

01:02:19.820 --> 01:02:23.500
I totally understand that. But a lot of horrendous

01:02:23.500 --> 01:02:26.739
things in our history happened when we painted

01:02:26.739 --> 01:02:29.380
the boogeyman and we said that group of people

01:02:29.380 --> 01:02:33.000
are the bad guys. And so I think, again, circling

01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:35.880
around to kindness and compassion, you know,

01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:37.820
if you're if you're the head of a, you know,

01:02:37.820 --> 01:02:40.559
a drug company that produces oxycontin that creates

01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:43.840
an opioid crisis, you know, or, you know, a chemical

01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:46.659
company that is poisoning the planet with forever

01:02:46.659 --> 01:02:48.780
chemicals. And, you know, you're sleeping at

01:02:48.780 --> 01:02:51.000
night. That's the same person, the same kind

01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.940
of person. So putting that kindness and compassion

01:02:53.940 --> 01:02:58.190
lens, even on the. the arguably sociopaths of

01:02:58.190 --> 01:03:00.929
the world is still the same conversation is it

01:03:00.929 --> 01:03:03.889
kind or is it unkind and the more we can heal

01:03:03.889 --> 01:03:06.010
ourselves in the middle the more we can then

01:03:06.010 --> 01:03:08.889
start pushing the boundaries left and right and

01:03:08.889 --> 01:03:11.389
then in you know kind of enclosing more and more

01:03:11.389 --> 01:03:14.829
people in their healing journey as well yeah

01:03:14.829 --> 01:03:19.750
i mean no notes man you absolutely nailed that

01:03:19.750 --> 01:03:23.190
i think yeah like genuinely like it's so true

01:03:23.190 --> 01:03:28.760
that if you can be someone who's you know heading

01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:31.480
up a genocide or even being on the side of a

01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:35.980
genocide or yeah like just allowing horrible

01:03:35.980 --> 01:03:38.159
things to happen to your brothers and sisters

01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:40.139
because we're all humans and we're all we're

01:03:40.139 --> 01:03:41.840
all in this together like we're all alone in

01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:43.900
this together if you're happy to let that go

01:03:43.900 --> 01:03:45.579
on and you can sleep soundly at night then yeah

01:03:45.579 --> 01:03:49.480
there is something off like and i think that's

01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:54.130
a planet -wide sickness you know that's a yeah

01:03:54.130 --> 01:03:59.130
just global mental health which is i don't i

01:03:59.130 --> 01:04:01.570
don't it's such a big problem to solve but i

01:04:01.570 --> 01:04:04.250
think we we don't have to solve it all at once

01:04:04.250 --> 01:04:07.289
it's all incremental stuff it's all a poem here

01:04:07.289 --> 01:04:10.429
a conversation here get get people talking like

01:04:10.429 --> 01:04:12.849
that's how we change the tide because there's

01:04:12.849 --> 01:04:15.730
no way to just like unfortunately like just wave

01:04:15.730 --> 01:04:18.489
a magic wand and be like stop that that's not

01:04:18.489 --> 01:04:21.300
good yeah And I would say you want to change

01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:23.400
the world, start a home. So the only ability

01:04:23.400 --> 01:04:26.019
everyone listening has that you have, that I

01:04:26.019 --> 01:04:28.460
have is to look in the mirror and go, well, what

01:04:28.460 --> 01:04:31.239
do I need to do to myself first? You know, my

01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:34.039
own self -work and then who else are, you know,

01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:36.739
am I sharing this home with? How can I positively

01:04:36.739 --> 01:04:39.739
affect them? If a hundred million people did

01:04:39.739 --> 01:04:42.820
that, imagine, imagine the change. So, and this

01:04:42.820 --> 01:04:44.820
is the thing with your poetry, with the book

01:04:44.820 --> 01:04:47.380
that I'm turning into a show. I mean, the reach

01:04:47.380 --> 01:04:50.000
of some of these things now. And potentially,

01:04:50.380 --> 01:04:53.460
as you said, that one poem went viral. So we

01:04:53.460 --> 01:04:57.099
do have the ability to put these positive messages

01:04:57.099 --> 01:04:59.340
out and then walk the walk, not just be standing

01:04:59.340 --> 01:05:02.699
on some ivory tower. I think that there is really

01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:06.480
a desire for a renaissance of kindness, compassion,

01:05:06.820 --> 01:05:10.940
and community. I really do. I'm just so incurably

01:05:10.940 --> 01:05:14.480
optimistic about that. I refuse to believe that

01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:16.579
people aren't inherently good. So we just got

01:05:16.579 --> 01:05:20.690
to refine that part of us. yeah no for sure like

01:05:20.690 --> 01:05:23.230
i think you kind of have to live with that believe

01:05:23.230 --> 01:05:26.429
in your heart to make it through the day at the

01:05:26.429 --> 01:05:29.949
moment that like good will prevail like um that

01:05:29.949 --> 01:05:33.869
there are still good people it's just we're in

01:05:33.869 --> 01:05:35.670
a dark place in the world right now we've been

01:05:35.670 --> 01:05:38.230
here for a while but that doesn't mean we can

01:05:38.230 --> 01:05:40.070
come we can't come out of it it's just going

01:05:40.070 --> 01:05:43.650
to take some some graft and some patience i think

01:05:43.650 --> 01:05:47.309
absolutely well that was one of the the poems

01:05:47.309 --> 01:05:49.210
that you said really took off when it was put

01:05:49.210 --> 01:05:52.889
on social media what about one of your your favorite

01:05:52.889 --> 01:05:55.289
ones if you want to read one of those one of

01:05:55.289 --> 01:05:59.989
my favorite ones okay okay this one's short but

01:05:59.989 --> 01:06:03.369
i i really like this one and it kind of honestly

01:06:03.369 --> 01:06:06.130
this wasn't even planned but this uh kind of

01:06:06.130 --> 01:06:08.389
touches on a lot of what we've already been talking

01:06:08.389 --> 01:06:14.380
about uh so this is called those who hold You

01:06:14.380 --> 01:06:16.340
can tell a lot about a person by how they handle

01:06:16.340 --> 01:06:20.000
pain. Some people are afraid to touch it, to

01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:23.460
have it. They hold it like a childless adult

01:06:23.460 --> 01:06:26.619
holds a baby, uncomfortable wanting to give it

01:06:26.619 --> 01:06:31.340
to anyone else. And sometimes they do, projecting

01:06:31.340 --> 01:06:35.440
pain like movies onto whoever comes near. But

01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:38.480
there are others who accept pain, draw it in

01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:41.880
close and hold it tight like an old friend, nurse

01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:46.940
it back to help. And these people are the entire

01:06:46.940 --> 01:06:51.239
sky. They have capacity for not just their own,

01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:54.320
but the pain of others too. The same way the

01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:57.159
sky can hold an infinity of clouds and not shatter.

01:06:57.900 --> 01:07:01.900
These people are miracles. Taking suffering from

01:07:01.900 --> 01:07:07.480
those who can't hold it any longer. Beautiful.

01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:16.340
Thank you. When I hear people talking about navigating

01:07:16.340 --> 01:07:18.840
their own crucible when they were in the darkest

01:07:18.840 --> 01:07:22.619
of places, and again, not to suggest for a moment

01:07:22.619 --> 01:07:24.360
that everyone that comes out the other side is

01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:27.119
perfectly healed and never has a struggle again,

01:07:27.260 --> 01:07:30.039
but come through that kind of healing journey,

01:07:30.099 --> 01:07:33.960
as it were. Over and over again, people seem

01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:36.960
to come out the woodwork and say, I'm struggling

01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:39.519
too. How did you do that? And that in itself,

01:07:39.619 --> 01:07:42.309
the ability to then be able to help. further

01:07:42.309 --> 01:07:45.170
bolsters their own healing journey what have

01:07:45.170 --> 01:07:47.369
you seen as far as that with your poetry and

01:07:47.369 --> 01:07:55.010
writing i mean over the years like i've been

01:07:55.010 --> 01:07:59.949
doing this work for almost 11 years now i started

01:07:59.949 --> 01:08:01.949
when i was like 20 with the mental health stuff

01:08:01.949 --> 01:08:05.869
and the poetry whatever else and there's always

01:08:05.869 --> 01:08:08.849
like always messages of people like they just

01:08:08.849 --> 01:08:10.449
want to get something off your chest and they

01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:13.719
they just want to talk and sometimes people just

01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:15.579
come out with it and they just that's the first

01:08:15.579 --> 01:08:17.619
message and some people ask and i think you know

01:08:17.619 --> 01:08:21.880
both are fine um but i think the things that

01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:24.920
like there are certain moments where like the

01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:26.720
universe kind of tells you you're on the right

01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:32.979
path um i remember last september and this again

01:08:32.979 --> 01:08:36.079
is like an example of a poem that i was just

01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:37.720
like i just need to put something up today because

01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:39.899
of the day it is so it was world suicide prevention

01:08:39.899 --> 01:08:43.829
day And obviously I do a lot of work specifically

01:08:43.829 --> 01:08:47.109
about suicide because of what happened. So I

01:08:47.109 --> 01:08:49.810
put up a poem. I was on the road somewhere and

01:08:49.810 --> 01:08:52.529
I wrote a poem in my hotel room and I recorded

01:08:52.529 --> 01:08:55.149
it in that hotel room. And then I put it up and

01:08:55.149 --> 01:08:57.289
I was like, OK, that's us covered for Suicide

01:08:57.289 --> 01:08:59.390
Prevention Day. I probably haven't done enough

01:08:59.390 --> 01:09:02.409
this year, but I was just busy. And then two

01:09:02.409 --> 01:09:05.649
days later, I got a message on TikTok of a woman.

01:09:06.090 --> 01:09:10.899
And in short, she was like. I was about to take

01:09:10.899 --> 01:09:14.279
my own life I listened to your poem and then

01:09:14.279 --> 01:09:16.859
I listened to it again and I listened to it again

01:09:16.859 --> 01:09:21.539
and I'm still here and she just wanted to say

01:09:21.539 --> 01:09:25.039
thanks and that she was gonna she was still struggling

01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:26.960
but she was gonna try and find help and that

01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:30.880
the poem really helped and I was like just blown

01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:33.340
away by that like that you know whatever a bit

01:09:33.340 --> 01:09:35.439
like things can go viral you can have loads of

01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:38.180
followers and stuff but like to be able to like

01:09:38.180 --> 01:09:40.039
know for sure that like something i've written

01:09:40.039 --> 01:09:45.680
has saved someone's life is really like it makes

01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:48.720
me uncomfortable but it's it's massive like it's

01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:50.979
a huge honor and i don't take it lightly because

01:09:50.979 --> 01:09:53.680
like you know it gets to the point where you

01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:56.720
are affecting people's lives and you can either

01:09:56.720 --> 01:09:58.920
do it negatively or positively and i think that

01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:02.539
for me is a sign that like you know i i chose

01:10:02.539 --> 01:10:04.520
the right path because there was there was a

01:10:04.520 --> 01:10:06.840
time where it could have gotten very dark and

01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:09.420
i could have become a different man and i was

01:10:09.420 --> 01:10:12.859
becoming a different man and i got the help i

01:10:12.859 --> 01:10:15.520
needed and i started writing as a result of that

01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:18.520
and i remember when that happened with that message

01:10:18.520 --> 01:10:23.279
one of my closest friends um text me and he was

01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:27.859
like you've done all this work for the last 10

01:10:27.859 --> 01:10:30.789
years to save that woman's life that was that's

01:10:30.789 --> 01:10:34.069
what it was all for and i was like that is an

01:10:34.069 --> 01:10:38.010
insane thing to try and think about but yeah

01:10:38.010 --> 01:10:41.470
i think that's the best example i have of like

01:10:41.470 --> 01:10:45.329
my own healing helping someone else and their

01:10:45.329 --> 01:10:48.970
journey with that helping me i think that that's

01:10:48.970 --> 01:10:53.090
was huge i mean i say this a lot you know i've

01:10:53.090 --> 01:10:56.260
done over 1 ,100 conversations now. And it's

01:10:56.260 --> 01:10:58.739
the same thing. It's all free that I put out

01:10:58.739 --> 01:11:01.920
there. And if it helps one single person, then

01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:03.819
it was worth it. Obviously, your poetry, this

01:11:03.819 --> 01:11:08.699
podcast, my books, your books. Even though we

01:11:08.699 --> 01:11:10.239
may not know it, we know that they're going to

01:11:10.239 --> 01:11:12.100
make even more of an impact than that. But it

01:11:12.100 --> 01:11:14.420
doesn't matter. One human life is still worth

01:11:14.420 --> 01:11:17.119
all of this effort. And when you were talking

01:11:17.119 --> 01:11:20.439
about that story, as I progressed through these

01:11:20.439 --> 01:11:22.640
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of conversations,

01:11:23.689 --> 01:11:26.529
One of the things that really became apparent

01:11:26.529 --> 01:11:31.649
was as someone experiences that kind of perfect

01:11:31.649 --> 01:11:34.670
storm of all the contributing factors that lead

01:11:34.670 --> 01:11:39.130
someone towards suicide ideation, the brain becomes

01:11:39.130 --> 01:11:41.850
truly miswired. Whether it's unaddressed childhood

01:11:41.850 --> 01:11:45.350
trauma, sleep deprivation, organizational betrayal,

01:11:45.630 --> 01:11:48.109
side effects of psych meds and alcohol and all

01:11:48.109 --> 01:11:51.579
the things. And at that point, There's a shift

01:11:51.579 --> 01:11:53.720
where, you know, of course, there's one part

01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:55.960
where someone just wants the suffering to end,

01:11:56.060 --> 01:11:58.439
this crippling depression, the pain, etc. But

01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:00.239
then there's another part that people don't normally

01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:04.020
talk about, which is there's a voice that starts

01:12:04.020 --> 01:12:07.319
convincing someone that they are the reason for

01:12:07.319 --> 01:12:10.140
their loved one's pain. And if they just remove

01:12:10.140 --> 01:12:12.920
themselves, everyone will be happier. And that's

01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:15.319
a complete fallacy that we can see that with

01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:18.789
a healthy mind from the outside looking in. But

01:12:18.789 --> 01:12:22.189
in that moment, which is reframe suicide a lot

01:12:22.189 --> 01:12:24.529
of times, because if that's what someone really

01:12:24.529 --> 01:12:27.770
believes at that moment in that distorted frame

01:12:27.770 --> 01:12:30.909
of mind, that suicide is actually very selfless

01:12:30.909 --> 01:12:34.409
and courageous, not cowardly and selfish. But

01:12:34.409 --> 01:12:37.869
to pull that person back from that metaphorical

01:12:37.869 --> 01:12:41.210
ledge, to give their mind a moment to just realize,

01:12:41.350 --> 01:12:43.850
whoa, what the hell was going on? What were we

01:12:43.850 --> 01:12:46.630
trying to convince you that was wrong? Might

01:12:46.630 --> 01:12:50.060
be a song. might be a poem, might be a phone

01:12:50.060 --> 01:12:52.340
call. And so this is where I think these are

01:12:52.340 --> 01:12:55.840
so important because I've had people, Emma, Kevin

01:12:55.840 --> 01:12:57.600
Hines, who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge

01:12:57.600 --> 01:13:00.619
and survived. The moment that trigger is squeezed,

01:13:00.739 --> 01:13:03.180
the moment that they let go of that railing,

01:13:03.220 --> 01:13:05.979
immediately they snap back to reality, but it's

01:13:05.979 --> 01:13:09.960
too late. So if a phone call, if a dog walking

01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:13.239
in, if whatever it is, like I said, a poem. can

01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:16.199
pull someone from that psychosis for a second.

01:13:16.279 --> 01:13:18.239
And I mean that use that term deliberately because

01:13:18.239 --> 01:13:21.279
it's a distorted way of thinking at that moment,

01:13:21.359 --> 01:13:24.699
then it really is saving a life. It really is.

01:13:24.880 --> 01:13:28.159
So this is why all these mediums, you know, are

01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:29.939
important, whether it's, you know, like you said,

01:13:29.979 --> 01:13:31.979
written word, whether it's, you know, someone

01:13:31.979 --> 01:13:33.960
might just look at a picture and have this thought,

01:13:34.039 --> 01:13:35.779
they might just look out the window and see,

01:13:35.859 --> 01:13:39.039
you know, something beautiful outside. But if

01:13:39.039 --> 01:13:41.779
the world is devoid of all these positive influences.

01:13:42.779 --> 01:13:44.560
there aren't going to be those moments that are

01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:46.819
going to be just enough to pull that person back

01:13:46.819 --> 01:13:51.539
from the brink. Yeah, no, it's so true. It reminds

01:13:51.539 --> 01:13:54.659
me of, have you ever seen that Ethan Hawke video

01:13:54.659 --> 01:13:56.760
where he's like, no one gives a shit about poetry

01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:59.239
until they need it. It's like when someone dies

01:13:59.239 --> 01:14:03.979
and there's, yeah, it is very much, it's a really

01:14:03.979 --> 01:14:05.560
important point to make because, you know, you

01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:08.920
do have that old kind of tired trope of people

01:14:08.920 --> 01:14:12.060
saying that like suicide is selfish. but like

01:14:12.060 --> 01:14:15.199
the people who are in that place truly think

01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:16.979
they're doing everyone a favor like they think

01:14:16.979 --> 01:14:19.260
they're the problem so i think it's really important

01:14:19.260 --> 01:14:23.819
to to say that as much as we can that like they're

01:14:23.819 --> 01:14:27.000
not doing this out of like selfishness at all

01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:30.199
it's very much the thinking you were describing

01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:34.439
um and yes and to provide in any capacity where

01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:36.000
they're as you said it's a podcast or a poem

01:14:36.000 --> 01:14:38.039
that kind of circuit breaker to give them a little

01:14:38.039 --> 01:14:42.189
break to be like What the fuck am I doing? Yeah.

01:14:42.529 --> 01:14:44.930
I mean, in that sense, throw as much shit as

01:14:44.930 --> 01:14:46.430
well as you can and see what it sticks like,

01:14:46.470 --> 01:14:48.930
whatever works. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't

01:14:48.930 --> 01:14:50.710
even necessarily have to be that deep. It can

01:14:50.710 --> 01:14:53.989
just be something. It could be a joke. Absolutely.

01:14:54.729 --> 01:14:57.569
Well, we've talked about your journey, you know,

01:14:57.609 --> 01:15:00.489
as far as short stories and then poetry. What

01:15:00.489 --> 01:15:03.069
are you projecting is next? The more of the same

01:15:03.069 --> 01:15:05.069
as far as, you know, staying within this medium

01:15:05.069 --> 01:15:07.850
or are you starting to even expand in other areas?

01:15:10.019 --> 01:15:13.180
So, yeah, so I've done the poetry, the essays,

01:15:13.239 --> 01:15:17.300
the short fiction. I've just, I've written the

01:15:17.300 --> 01:15:20.380
first draft of a novel and that kind of, it's

01:15:20.380 --> 01:15:25.060
like a fictionalization of like the, the events

01:15:25.060 --> 01:15:28.659
of my 17 year old year when my best friend died

01:15:28.659 --> 01:15:30.579
and the kind of aftermath of that. It's kind

01:15:30.579 --> 01:15:33.319
of a fictionalization of that. So would like

01:15:33.319 --> 01:15:36.300
to get that published soon. there'll always be

01:15:36.300 --> 01:15:39.180
more poetry there'll never not be poetry uh but

01:15:39.180 --> 01:15:41.220
though i think the thing i'm most excited about

01:15:41.220 --> 01:15:44.300
at the moment is i recently started collaborating

01:15:44.300 --> 01:15:47.560
with a british artist named throwing snow who's

01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:50.439
a producer and he makes like electronic music

01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:53.319
and we're making a kind of spoken word electronic

01:15:53.319 --> 01:15:56.680
album uh so we released our first song in june

01:15:56.680 --> 01:15:58.560
and that went really well we've got a lot of

01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:00.460
like radio time and all that stuff you want to

01:16:00.460 --> 01:16:04.359
see um and since then we've recorded like I want

01:16:04.359 --> 01:16:07.760
to say like 18 songs, spoken word and electronic.

01:16:07.880 --> 01:16:11.800
And it's been so much fun because like, you know,

01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:15.119
the thing I would call my career is the writing

01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:20.619
the books. So doing music is kind of just like

01:16:20.619 --> 01:16:23.180
a bonus round and it's all fun and it's all new

01:16:23.180 --> 01:16:25.060
and I have no expectations for it. So there's

01:16:25.060 --> 01:16:26.960
no like stress involved. It's just been a really

01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:30.079
fun outlet to collaborate with another artist.

01:16:31.399 --> 01:16:33.640
I obviously I'm biased, but I think we're making

01:16:33.640 --> 01:16:35.800
something quite exciting and I'm excited to see

01:16:35.800 --> 01:16:38.399
where it goes. So that's kind of the main next

01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:42.000
thing. And yeah, to get the next book, get the

01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:45.640
novel published is the next step for that. And

01:16:45.640 --> 01:16:49.439
then, like, honestly, like. I have never planned

01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:52.300
a day in my life. Everything that's happened

01:16:52.300 --> 01:16:54.659
to me so far has come from writing and I've gotten

01:16:54.659 --> 01:16:56.779
a lot of amazing opportunities over the years.

01:16:57.390 --> 01:16:59.970
So I'll just continue to lean on that. The writing

01:16:59.970 --> 01:17:02.010
works. I'll keep writing. I love writing. And

01:17:02.010 --> 01:17:06.170
every opportunity that comes will take. I listened

01:17:06.170 --> 01:17:11.329
to Alan Watts' Spotify playlist. And a lot of

01:17:11.329 --> 01:17:13.010
those are exactly like you're talking about.

01:17:13.069 --> 01:17:15.449
It's spoken word, but with the ambient music

01:17:15.449 --> 01:17:17.710
of the background. And it just adds another layer

01:17:17.710 --> 01:17:20.350
to it when you put music together with poetry.

01:17:20.390 --> 01:17:23.310
Yeah, it does. And that's why poetry works so

01:17:23.310 --> 01:17:28.550
well on social media. I've done this a lot where

01:17:28.550 --> 01:17:32.270
I'll hand the written version of a poem to a

01:17:32.270 --> 01:17:34.649
friend and they'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, cool.

01:17:34.869 --> 01:17:37.270
And then I'll show them a video of me performing

01:17:37.270 --> 01:17:40.289
it with music and it will actually connect. And

01:17:40.289 --> 01:17:42.710
they'll be like, holy fuck, it'll be a completely

01:17:42.710 --> 01:17:48.869
more intense reaction. So I think the music poetry

01:17:48.869 --> 01:17:54.340
connection is, yeah, it's huge. So where... can

01:17:54.340 --> 01:17:57.619
people listening find the books, the poetry and

01:17:57.619 --> 01:17:58.920
anything else that you're putting out at the

01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:04.079
moment? So everything is available online. The

01:18:04.079 --> 01:18:06.140
books are available in bookshops in Ireland and

01:18:06.140 --> 01:18:08.960
the UK and probably obscure ones in some random

01:18:08.960 --> 01:18:12.220
US state somewhere. But they're all available

01:18:12.220 --> 01:18:16.600
online. So my website's thoughts2big .ie. I'm

01:18:16.600 --> 01:18:21.430
at Dara Fleming everywhere. to be extremely lazy

01:18:21.430 --> 01:18:24.449
if you would like to find a book i really appreciate

01:18:24.449 --> 01:18:26.569
it and the easiest way to do that is probably

01:18:26.569 --> 01:18:29.489
just google darren fleming and they pop up absolutely

01:18:29.489 --> 01:18:31.449
yeah you got a unique name you pop up straight

01:18:31.449 --> 01:18:34.270
away all right well i want to throw some quick

01:18:34.270 --> 01:18:36.149
closing questions at you before i let you go

01:18:36.149 --> 01:18:39.670
if that's okay all right we talked about your

01:18:39.670 --> 01:18:42.409
work is there a book or are there books that

01:18:42.409 --> 01:18:44.430
you love to recommend written by other people

01:18:44.430 --> 01:18:46.930
it can be related to our discussion today or

01:18:46.930 --> 01:18:50.689
completely unrelated First one that always comes

01:18:50.689 --> 01:18:53.489
to mind is Anything by Max Porter. His last book

01:18:53.489 --> 01:18:57.329
was called Shy. Grief is a Thing with Fedders

01:18:57.329 --> 01:19:00.010
by Max Porter is good. Anything he's written,

01:19:00.109 --> 01:19:02.590
absolutely amazing. He writes like novels in

01:19:02.590 --> 01:19:06.449
poetic verse, absolutely class. My favorite poetry

01:19:06.449 --> 01:19:10.289
chapbook is called Notes in an Emergency by Frank

01:19:10.289 --> 01:19:14.069
O 'Hara. It's about New York in like the 60s

01:19:14.069 --> 01:19:17.989
and 70s. Absolutely brilliant. And then like,

01:19:18.470 --> 01:19:21.670
I wouldn't be a true Irishman if I didn't recommend

01:19:21.670 --> 01:19:24.470
half of the Irish writers. So Patrick Holloway,

01:19:24.649 --> 01:19:29.250
Lucy Holmes, Kevin Barry, Wendy Erickson. We,

01:19:29.390 --> 01:19:31.609
at the moment, I think it's, to be fair, it's

01:19:31.609 --> 01:19:34.409
always been true. But at the moment we have like

01:19:34.409 --> 01:19:37.989
such a level of talent in terms of like writing,

01:19:38.010 --> 01:19:41.289
whether it's poetry or novels or TV or movies

01:19:41.289 --> 01:19:45.210
coming out of Ireland. So like, yeah, just check

01:19:45.210 --> 01:19:47.189
it, literally anyone and you'll be satisfied.

01:19:48.390 --> 01:19:50.430
Have you ever crossed paths with a poet called

01:19:50.430 --> 01:19:57.189
Jair Devine? No. So he is a Dublin firefighter

01:19:57.189 --> 01:20:00.770
and also a poet. Jair Devine. Hold on. Hold on.

01:20:00.810 --> 01:20:03.250
I have. I have. Yeah. No, sorry. I have. Yeah.

01:20:03.329 --> 01:20:06.890
He was on the show two St. Patrick's Days ago.

01:20:06.930 --> 01:20:10.130
We had a Guinness and did an interview. He did

01:20:10.130 --> 01:20:12.189
a gig there the other day in Arethbobel, it's

01:20:12.189 --> 01:20:13.609
called, and it just popped up on my Instagram

01:20:13.609 --> 01:20:15.609
the other day. Yeah, I've met. I've done a gig

01:20:15.609 --> 01:20:18.090
with him and everything. There we go. Brilliant.

01:20:18.109 --> 01:20:20.609
Yeah. An amazing guy. All right. Well, the next

01:20:20.609 --> 01:20:23.210
question, what about films and documentaries

01:20:23.210 --> 01:20:25.590
that you love? Films and documentaries. Like

01:20:25.590 --> 01:20:28.449
my favorite movie ever is Good Will Hunting.

01:20:29.090 --> 01:20:32.529
Just a classic. Robin Williams, that was absolutely

01:20:32.529 --> 01:20:37.489
the best. I have to just not even, no, probably

01:20:37.489 --> 01:20:39.750
contractually at this point, Spider -Man. Gotta

01:20:39.750 --> 01:20:41.770
do Spider -Man. I'm a massive Spider -Man fan.

01:20:42.729 --> 01:20:47.869
Like just complete perfection, any of them. no

01:20:47.869 --> 01:20:50.630
i don't really watch a lot of documentaries what

01:20:50.630 --> 01:20:54.470
i've been watching recently and i love slow horses

01:20:54.470 --> 01:20:57.270
if you haven't seen it on apple tv that was brilliant

01:20:57.270 --> 01:21:01.630
yeah so good um but yeah i don't like i don't

01:21:01.630 --> 01:21:05.430
watch a massive amount of tv but when i do it

01:21:05.430 --> 01:21:09.449
tends to be like trash like it's the office or

01:21:09.449 --> 01:21:11.689
it's parks and rec or something you know but

01:21:11.689 --> 01:21:15.090
my favorite movie Good Will Hunting, There Will

01:21:15.090 --> 01:21:18.250
Be Blood, another great one. There's a movie

01:21:18.250 --> 01:21:23.350
called Two Popes, which is about when Pope Francis

01:21:23.350 --> 01:21:25.569
took over from Pope Benedict and their kind of

01:21:25.569 --> 01:21:28.130
relationship. And it's actually, and I'm not

01:21:28.130 --> 01:21:30.189
religious or anything, but it's actually class.

01:21:30.449 --> 01:21:35.470
Such an interesting insight into how the way

01:21:35.470 --> 01:21:37.630
we view these pious people are actually just

01:21:37.630 --> 01:21:39.529
human beings who have their own agendas and it's

01:21:39.529 --> 01:21:44.750
all kind of manipulative. as well um but yeah

01:21:44.750 --> 01:21:48.090
they're my wrecks not the best there was that

01:21:48.090 --> 01:21:49.829
show and i'm forgetting what it was called now

01:21:49.829 --> 01:21:53.550
but ricky gervais did it on grief and death i

01:21:53.550 --> 01:21:55.510
don't know if you saw after life after that was

01:21:55.510 --> 01:21:59.529
fantastic yeah really good really good all right

01:21:59.529 --> 01:22:02.210
well speaking of great people is there a person

01:22:02.210 --> 01:22:04.590
that you recommend to come on this podcast as

01:22:04.590 --> 01:22:07.149
a guest to speak to the first responders military

01:22:07.149 --> 01:22:12.100
and associated professions of the world another

01:22:12.100 --> 01:22:14.420
good question lots of people coming to mind i

01:22:14.420 --> 01:22:16.520
could obviously recommend a lot of poets but

01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:19.359
who i think would be really good there is a poet

01:22:19.359 --> 01:22:23.260
named emin o 'brien from dublin um he's like

01:22:23.260 --> 01:22:27.380
a working class um poet from the north of dublin

01:22:27.380 --> 01:22:30.220
and he's absolutely incredible he's an incredible

01:22:30.220 --> 01:22:33.260
performer and has a really interesting story

01:22:33.260 --> 01:22:38.060
he works um he teaches poetry in prisons in dublin

01:22:38.060 --> 01:22:42.579
um yeah just a great and just a great hang great

01:22:42.579 --> 01:22:45.840
crack you get good conversation at all that's

01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:48.119
that's another whole area we're talking about

01:22:48.119 --> 01:22:50.819
kindness and compassion i had uh the supervisor

01:22:50.819 --> 01:22:53.840
or superintendent excuse me of uh bastoy prison

01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:56.939
in norway on a couple of times now tom ever and

01:22:56.939 --> 01:23:00.039
when you look at that model you know all the

01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:04.159
proactive um Elements where, again, you're talking

01:23:04.159 --> 01:23:05.979
about looking at the popes as humans, well, prisoners

01:23:05.979 --> 01:23:08.659
are humans. People that, again, started off as

01:23:08.659 --> 01:23:10.640
giggling little babies and then their life took

01:23:10.640 --> 01:23:13.100
them to an area where maybe it wasn't full of

01:23:13.100 --> 01:23:15.180
kindness and compassion and mistakes were made.

01:23:15.539 --> 01:23:18.960
But the recidivism rate in Norway is incredibly

01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:22.039
low. It's because they invest in their incarcerated

01:23:22.039 --> 01:23:24.760
men and women. Because they will move back next

01:23:24.760 --> 01:23:27.680
door to you one day. I think 95 % of prisoners

01:23:27.680 --> 01:23:29.880
will. So when you hear about these proactive

01:23:29.880 --> 01:23:32.500
programs in prisons around the world, it's always

01:23:32.500 --> 01:23:37.420
intriguing. For sure. All right. Well, then the

01:23:37.420 --> 01:23:40.279
last question, before we make sure everyone knows

01:23:40.279 --> 01:23:42.399
where to find you on all the platforms, we'll

01:23:42.399 --> 01:23:45.140
underline that again. What do you do to decompress?

01:23:47.570 --> 01:23:50.890
Oh, well, I exercise a lot. I'm always in the

01:23:50.890 --> 01:23:56.470
gym or going for runs. I mean, watching Trash

01:23:56.470 --> 01:23:59.170
TV, as I said, I am a fiend for Trash TV. I do

01:23:59.170 --> 01:24:02.750
love it. Reading, it's apparently part of my

01:24:02.750 --> 01:24:06.949
job, but I also just read to relax as well. And

01:24:06.949 --> 01:24:10.609
then the simple stuff, and it's kind of what

01:24:10.609 --> 01:24:12.529
we talked about earlier, like hanging out with

01:24:12.529 --> 01:24:15.899
people I like. like really helps me to unwind

01:24:15.899 --> 01:24:18.819
like actually having good conversations in real

01:24:18.819 --> 01:24:22.680
life with good people is if i'm ever having a

01:24:22.680 --> 01:24:24.659
day where i'm feeling like wound up or stressed

01:24:24.659 --> 01:24:26.659
or anxious if i just hang out with a good friend

01:24:26.659 --> 01:24:29.239
like usually sorts itself it's really important

01:24:29.239 --> 01:24:31.899
and because we live in this world where we're

01:24:31.899 --> 01:24:35.140
all in our own bubbles isolated but connected

01:24:35.140 --> 01:24:36.920
to thousands of people but maybe spending all

01:24:36.920 --> 01:24:39.020
of our time on our own i think having a couple

01:24:39.020 --> 01:24:42.319
of good friends to hang out with is a cure for

01:24:42.319 --> 01:24:46.960
that And do you play basketball now? I don't,

01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:49.600
but I do miss it. So I stopped playing in 2020

01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:55.739
and then I moved to Barcelona in 2023. So I hadn't

01:24:55.739 --> 01:24:57.300
played for three years, but I started playing

01:24:57.300 --> 01:24:59.720
pickup basketball again in Barcelona, just like,

01:24:59.739 --> 01:25:02.640
you know, casual enough. And that kind of gave

01:25:02.640 --> 01:25:05.520
me the bug for it again. So I might, Dublin's

01:25:05.520 --> 01:25:08.119
a great basketball town, so I might find a team

01:25:08.119 --> 01:25:11.779
and lock in again. And what was it took you to

01:25:11.779 --> 01:25:17.630
Spain? kind of like a lot of things just because

01:25:17.630 --> 01:25:21.069
I could one but like mainly like I was looking

01:25:21.069 --> 01:25:22.890
for a place to rent in Cork and I couldn't find

01:25:22.890 --> 01:25:26.029
one so and I had friends I had a lot of friends

01:25:26.029 --> 01:25:28.510
living in Barcelona so I was like I'll just move

01:25:28.510 --> 01:25:31.189
there it'll be cheaper there's definitely places

01:25:31.189 --> 01:25:33.850
to rent and I can live in the sun for a couple

01:25:33.850 --> 01:25:36.489
years and it was a great time but it kind of

01:25:36.489 --> 01:25:38.729
felt like I was just taking a break from my real

01:25:38.729 --> 01:25:41.199
life It was like a two -year holiday kind of

01:25:41.199 --> 01:25:42.640
thing. So I was like, I should probably get back

01:25:42.640 --> 01:25:47.119
to it. All right. So just one more time for people

01:25:47.119 --> 01:25:48.699
listening. Where are the best places? Social

01:25:48.699 --> 01:25:51.640
media. And what's the name of the website? um

01:25:51.640 --> 01:25:54.560
so the best social media instagram tiktok at

01:25:54.560 --> 01:25:56.199
darren fleming that's probably where i'm most

01:25:56.199 --> 01:25:59.319
active and then my website tossed to big .ie

01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:01.819
it's primarily just once a week i do a mental

01:26:01.819 --> 01:26:04.539
health blog kind of go through what i was dealing

01:26:04.539 --> 01:26:07.100
with during the week just to kind of normalize

01:26:07.100 --> 01:26:10.460
that conversation there are three spots Brilliant.

01:26:10.460 --> 01:26:12.579
Well, Dara, I want to thank you so much. Firstly,

01:26:12.699 --> 01:26:14.579
like I said, just for putting your poetry out.

01:26:14.640 --> 01:26:16.720
Obviously, it hit a lot of people. That's how

01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:19.220
we were connected in the first place. And secondly,

01:26:19.319 --> 01:26:21.859
for being courageous, having that vulnerability

01:26:21.859 --> 01:26:24.260
and telling your story. So I want to thank you

01:26:24.260 --> 01:26:26.579
so, so much for being so generous with your time

01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:29.060
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

01:26:30.220 --> 01:26:31.840
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so

01:26:31.840 --> 01:26:32.039
much.