Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
it is my absolute honor to welcome on the show,
poet Dara Fleming. Now, I came across Dara through
one of his poems that was posted on Instagram
entitled, If I Ever Have Boys, and it resonated
with me so deeply that I wanted to reach out
to him. As I dove into his work, I discovered
that a lot of it also addressed mental health,
another commonality with this podcast. So we
discuss a host of topics, from his own childhood,
losing a friend to suicide, catharsis through
poetry, his own powerful mental health story,
some of his favorite poems, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you, Dara Fleming. Enjoy. came across you
on social media when you were reading If I Ever
Have Boys. And I want to obviously get to that
poem as we progress through here. But I was so
moved by that, that obviously I want to reach
out to you on social media. And I want to thank
you so much for saying yes and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh, no, it's
an absolute pleasure. And yeah, I feel like at
this point, a lot of people find me that way,
that poem. yeah just really connected with people
and i suppose just at the top i have a lot of
you know i have a lot of uh gratitude and i suppose
uh credit due to lucas jones who that poem that
poem was in response to lucas um so without him
none of that would happen for me either um but
it's something i think about a lot um hey because
i don't have children yet so like how i would
raise my children and especially in the world
we live in now with all the So many influences
and a lot of them are negative that it's important
to think about. Absolutely. We'll dive into that.
Very first question, where on planet Earth are
we finding you this evening? We're finding me
in Dublin, Ireland. I just was saying before
we started recording, I've been here all of two
weeks. So I came from Cork, where I'm originally
from. And I just moved back from Barcelona in
February. So there's been a lot of chopping and
changing this calendar year, but we're settling
in Dublin now. Beautiful. Well, I would love
to start the very beginning of your journey then.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, so born
originally in Cork in Ballinloch. just me my
mom and dad and my older brother my brother is
a year older than me so we yeah so we grew up
together basically we were just very close there's
only 13 months between us so like we've just
always been best friends which has been great
like to be able to grow up with your best friend
is really special and then my parents came from
working class backgrounds kind of crawled and
clawed their way to the working class My dad
worked as a security officer for a while, and
then he was a private investigator, which was
a very cool job to say your dad had. And now
he's back working security again. And then my
mother was like, and still is like a regional
manager for like a wholesaler. So like supplying
to shops and stuff. So that was kind of our background.
And it was very like just the four of us, really
straightforward, simple, nothing. of note which
is good like there was no extreme negatives it
was just yeah like a really simple lovely childhood
and we were really lucky to have that because
i know not everyone does were there any stories
from your dad's career when he was a private
investigator that he talks about kind of interesting
or funny yeah so i mean i remember like there'd
be days he'd pick me up from school and he'd
be like i'm still working so you need to come
with me and it would be a case of like me sitting
in the in the front of the van his van and him
getting into the back and there was like a black
curtain and then there'd just be like a camera
lens coming out next to my head and he'd be taking
pictures but it was just all it was a lot of
um insurance fraud and he'd have to do like i
suppose the ones that got funnier kind of nuts
where the uh when he had to you know serve people
their their court summons uh and people would
just run away in them or drive away from him
and he'd be chasing them through the streets
and that just sounds like a big hollywood movie
but like that was the reality but that didn't
happen very often like most of his job was like
waiting around for people and just basically
like say if they were claiming that they like
hurt their neck and they couldn't work and then
he'd like catch them doing like backflips in
their back garden or something and then it'll
be like oh well you're lying about your neck
injury that was kind of the job which is basically
it was a professional rat god love them like
so where you grew up was that in an urban setting
or was it more rural so where i was born was
a kind of suburbs uh the suburbs of cork and
then when i was four uh my parents bought a house
bought their first house and we moved out to
kind of outside the suburbs so it was in yeah
very much rural but it was still only like 15
minutes from the city so i live next to like
there was probably three houses next to us then
across the road from us there was like a pig
farm and next to us they grew maize and they
also used to have cows in there so we very much
grew up in the countryside Which at the time
as a four -year -old, I was absolutely raging
about because I thought they were ruining my
life moving us out of the city. But it was actually
like turned out to be the best thing that could
have happened. It was really nice. And we had
the best of both worlds because as I said, we're
only like a 15 minute drive from the city if
we did want to go in. And we went to school in
the city as well. So we kind of lived in between
the city and kind of rural Ireland, which is
nice. I grew up on a farm myself outside Bath,
and I was actually just talking to my wife about
this yesterday. There was a lot of time where
I was just on my own. I had siblings as well,
but you're out in the fields and you're climbing
trees or you're mucking out stables or whatever
it is, compared to the distractions and the information
barrage that a lot of our young people are exposed
to now. When you reflect back, did that environment...
kind of feed the fire when it came to the introspection
that you're known for now that's a really good
question um i would say like it has to have whether
i was aware of it or not because yeah inherently
like you know you're even that stuff that i take
for granted nailed back in cities like you go
to when you're going to sleep at night it's quiet
and you have time to think Whereas like if you're
in the kind of city environment, there's always
something going on and there's always something
to be distracted by. So I think like living in
a place where everything's a lot slower and people
give time to doing nothing. And I think that's
really important for that introspective piece
or for art, like allowing yourself time to do
nothing is massively important. And I think.
because of technology because of our phones we
avoid doing nothing all the time we're like terrified
to be bored but i find that that's where all
the ideas come from because your brain tries
to like entertain itself in that sense but to
get back to your question i think yeah i like
it's hard to say because i don't have the comparison
like it would be great if there was two versions
of me that grew up one in the city one in the
in the in the rural ireland to see um how they
both panned out but i would say if i had to hazard
a guess it has had a massive impact yeah so what
about kind of sports activities what were you
doing during those school ages back then i was
very uninterested in sport i tried a lot of them
until i found basketball and once i found basketball
my whole life changed like it was like I finally
understood why everyone else likes sport. Like
this was my sport. And I had like a, I mean,
I was terrible at the start, but I definitely
had a natural curiosity and like a desire to
get better at it. And I just became massively
obsessed with basketball to the point that I
ended up playing. If I started playing at 11,
I only stopped playing during the pandemic. So
that would have been like 17 years of my life.
And I got to the level of playing like. super
league which is the highest level you can play
in Ireland um so that that just consumed my entire
teenage life I was just I kind of up until I
found basketball it was like head in the books
reading all the time I was writing a lot as a
child found basketball threw all that stuff out
the window and I was like this is now the most
important thing in my life um but beyond that
yeah I didn't I was terrible at football then
there's the GAA in Ireland which are kind of
our own you know in -house sports really bad
at those but i just seemed to be good at basketball
so i stuck with that and pretended no other sport
existed what about writing i've heard you talking
about you know very very young writing your first
poem i think it was in your ted talk yeah so
i suppose what precedes the writing is the reading
and Since I was able to read, which was around
three or four, I always had a book. Like I was
always reading. I was reading before bed. I was
reading when I woke up in the morning. Anytime
I kind of had moments to read, I read. And granted,
like in the 90s, this was a lot easier because
you didn't have your streaming services and your
Netflix. So there was kind of nothing else to
do unless there was something I wanted to watch
on at the right time. So yeah, just reading all
the time. And then, yeah, the first poem. was
about a monkey because I remember as a kid I
was obsessed with monkeys so I just wanted to
write a poem about them and then I wrote my first
short story which was like very probably like
offensive to Irish people because it was about
a leprechaun so I was kind of attacking my own
people in a sense but it was about a leprechaun
whatever saving the world etc and then from there
like in english i always wanted to do the creative
answer like write the short story write the essay
that was all i that was what i was most interested
in so writing was always there and i remember
even my mother say when i was 13 she turned to
me she dropped me to school one morning and she
was like um i don't know what it's gonna look
like or whatever but you're gonna be doing she
was like you're gonna be working in writing in
some capacity when you're older whether it's
journalism whether it's like writing books and
like sure i was 13 i was like will you go away
like that's total nonsense like but as it happened
she predicted the future so what were you dreaming
of becoming when you were in the school age well
like i definitely had uh aspirations to be a
professional basketball player and be in the
NBA I think that everyone who was on my team
you know had those aspirations which is a high
tall order for like an Irish kid because we're
not inherently like the most adapted to basketball
but having said that like we have produced a
lot of great basketball players there's a few
playing in the states um CJ Flood is actually
playing in the G League at the moment and he's
from uh the north of Ireland so like yeah that
was the aspiration though was this the equivalent
of like my brother wanted to be playing for Liverpool
I wanted to play for you know the New York Knicks
or something um but that yeah that was just a
dream really I suppose like and this is something
I actually struggled with as a kid because when
I was When you're 18 in Ireland, you kind of
have to decide what you're going to do with the
rest of your life then and there, because, you
know, you have to decide based on your test scores,
what college degree you're going to do. And then
that basically becomes your path. And I didn't
have a clue. Like, I had no idea what I wanted
to do. And I was really jealous of people like
my brother, because he knew fairly early he wanted
to be an engineer and went on and became an engineer.
Whereas I was just kind of like. I could be a
physio or I could do psychology or I could go
into computer science or I could go into business.
Like I just didn't have any clue at all, which
is good and bad, I suppose. Well, you mentioned
about obviously losing a best friend when you
were 17. So let's kind of go back in time a little
bit first. Tell me about your friend and then
let's kind of walk through losing him. Yeah,
so Irby was originally from Chicago and his his
family emigrated to Ireland when he was very
young, like he would have been three or four.
And I didn't meet him till I was 13. So and the
reason how I met him was I was in the first year.
He was in second year. He was in school. He was
in the same year as my brother. And they were
in the you know, we're all in the same school.
And every year to first year. basketball players
like the two best players were asked to play
with the second year team as well so you could
like play up a year so I was one of those players
and at the start I remember Irby didn't like
kind of the whole team didn't like me because
it was like oh what's the first year doing playing
with us like whatever but then they then they
found out I was I could actually play and it
was actually useful um and that's where me and
Irby kind of began our friendship it was very
much centered around basketball and after that
like We'd spend most of our time either playing
basketball, if the weather allowed it, outside
one of our houses, or we'd be inside playing
NBA 2K or something. So that's how we met. And
we just got really close really quick. And it
was just a really like... just a light and like
fun friendship you know we just we laughed a
lot we you know the things teenage boys talk
about like talking about girls we liked what
we're gonna do at the weekend uh who was gonna
get us naggins when we went drinking all this
kind of you know stuff you do as a teenager um
and we hung out together in a group with my older
brother Killian and two other lads that were
in their year as well so there was kind of five
of us and then in the wider group there was like
you know half a cork it was whatever we all kind
of hung out together in a sense but uh it was
the five of us and we were really like tightening
we did everything like staying in each other's
houses and just staying up all night and just
just being teenage boys like um and i suppose
like to contextualize why well i mean suicide
is always traumatic but we were lucky that like
there was there hadn't been much tragedy in our
lives. There was a few guys we knew who'd lost
their fathers quite early in life, which was
really hard. And there was a few people who were
like, we knew in our, in our school classes that
were quite sick, but we hadn't really experienced
like real grief or like, like devastating heartbreak
beyond girlfriends breaking up with us or whatever.
So then, yeah, I mean, when irby died it was
really painful one because he was gone and two
i felt so guilty because i had no idea he was
struggling and and no one did like no one it
was such a surprise that it happened because
none of us even like questioned that he was struggling
with something and i suppose that's the terrifying
thing about depression and having got a true
true myself i can attest to it that like You
can really act like everything's fine. You can
put on the show. You can, you know, Irby was
always out with us at the weekends. He was always
playing basketball. He was always having fun,
laughing, you know, texting girls, all the stuff
everyone was doing. But behind all of that, he
was having a really hard time. And he ended up
taking his own life. When you look back now,
obviously, you know, a lot longer, excuse me,
a lot later, With the mental health conversation
having evolved hugely, certainly over the last
10 years or so, were there any elements of his
upbringing, of his surroundings that you think,
you know, were contributing to this, even though
he was wearing that mask that so many of us put
on? Yeah, look, there's a lot of factors like
that. Looking back now, you can kind of see it.
So one was like, Irby wasn't very interested
in school. like wasn't just wasn't his thing
and i mean a lot of kids aren't interested in
school but he would have got a lot of pressure
from like a parental level um about his academic
work and i remember he was even switched school
he was switched out of our school for a couple
of years and brought back because he wasn't like
achieving what was wanted at home So I think
the, and then like the year he took his own life
was the year he was doing his like final exams
of secondary school. So they're like the biggest
exams you sit in Ireland as a teenager, it's
called a leave insert. So he was going to, so
he took his own life in January and the exams
were in May and the pre -exams, like the mocks
were coming up in February. So all that was like
in his head and like, he was just, he hated school,
didn't study, didn't like it. So I think that.
was a major thing and you know i've been talking
about it a lot recently how like the leave insert
can be dangerous for teenagers like because it
can cause them to like want to kill themselves
which is not really like conducive with like
a good education and well -being that like the
system is causing teenagers to want to kill themselves
so that was a major factor um and then like i
think like yeah to be honest that's like i think
what, like, I can't know this is speculation
because he didn't leave a note or anything, but
I think it was mainly that is what pushed him
over the edge. This is an important part of this
whole mental health conversation. A lot of people
that come on the show, you know, they're first
responders, they're military members. So, you
know, there's other areas of trauma that are
very acute as well. But I had a high school student
on Emma Benoit and it was her. that was the big
thing for her she had a you know loving um upbringing
but it was the pressure of school and she was
you know a beautiful girl a cheerleader if i
remember rightly and and she survived her suicide
attempt she's she's in a wheelchair now but she
became a mental health advocate but it was that
pressure of not knowing and i had another um
guest on angela lee who's uh a martial artist,
she had her own attempts and survived. She kind
of deliberately crashed her car and then she
lost her younger sister to suicide. And in that
household, there was, again, this pressure in
the martial arts world for these two girls to
be, you know, world champions, as it were. So
not saying this was the case with Irby specifically,
but the danger of living vicariously through
your kids, putting expectations on them that
maybe just don't fit their specific road. as
a parent is something to be mindful of and certainly
then kind of looking for the signs if that kind
of expectation is putting undue pressure on.
Yeah, no, it's a great point. Like, and, and
the thing with Irby, like he was a, he was an
incredible athlete, you know, like, and I think
the issue with school is like, we kind of tell
kids there's only one way to be smart. Like there's
only one way to have intelligence. Whereas like,
you know, in school, you're not tested for like
your integrity or your compassion or your artistic
creativity or your like ability to play sports.
Like none of them are like seen as like, obviously
you can do them in school, but none of them are
seen as like a basis for your future. Everything's
based on the books and just like, that doesn't
fit, like not everyone's going to fit that mold.
Like, so yeah, it's a really important point.
All right. So at 17 years old, you kind of thrust
into this, you know, realization of mortality
you've had this tragic loss of a friend how does
that impact your own grief and mental health
journey and so it was really like true confusing
because like there was a big part of me that
felt like i'd let her be down um mainly because
So basically, he took his life on a Wednesday,
right? And we used to get a half day on a Wednesday.
And he came up to me, so it was lunchtime on
the Wednesday. And we'd often hang out on that
day, but also sometimes we'd go hang out with
different friends. And he came up to me and he
was like, hey, do you want to get lunch? And
I had other plans. I was going into town to meet
some friends from my own year. So I was like,
oh, I have other plans. I can't go for lunch,
but I'll see you at training tonight. We had
training that evening. And he was like, oh yeah,
there's no worries. Like, and often like, you
know, one of, we'd either go for lunch or he'd
say he couldn't or I'd say I couldn't. So it
wasn't like a massive big deal. Like it was just
like, can't go for lunch. And then it happened
that that night was the night he took his own
life. And like, similar to the other stories
you were talking about a while ago, he didn't
actually end up dying. So they got to him in
time and then he died in the hospital as a result
of complications of what he did. um so I had
that kind of guilt hanging over me um and my
yeah like I was grieving but very quickly I I
stopped feeling anything like there was no anger
there was no sadness there was no happiness um
and I like because there was no mental health
education I just thought that's how grief was
that's how it worked and I just pull out of it
and then it you know as the years went down i
got to 18 i still wasn't feeling anything and
and then i just thought that's how adults were
like i was like okay adults just don't feel anything
and they just pretend and they like you know
they they act out the emotions they're expected
to and i was like i was emotionally intelligent
enough to know what emotions people expected
from me so like if i got a good exam result i'd
know that they want me to be happy so i'd like
perform that or if we won a match or if we lost
the match whatever so The fallout was like, I
was depressed for four years and it took me,
I went on to study applied psychology because
I was like, right, I don't want to like go the
same route. I don't want to get to a place where
I feel like I want to die. And maybe if I learn
this stuff, I can help other people to also not
get to the same place. So I studied applied psychology
in Cork, in University College Cork. And it was
during that. that I learned about emotional anhedonia
and that was a can be a symptom of depression
which is you stop feeling anything you just go
completely numb and I realized that's what I
had at the time so this was maybe when I was
20 but I continued to deny I had depression because
of like self -stigma so I thought at this time
in my life i would have viewed like having a
mental illness as like a failure or that i'd
let my parents down or let my friends down and
people would treat me differently so i ignored
it for a further year until i had this massive
panic attack and it was my first panic attack
ever in the street on a night out in cork and
it just came out nowhere and it was so horrible
and the next day i was like right i can't deny
this anymore i need to get help i'm not dealing
with irby's death and like instead of dealing
with it you know i was like i was in college
so i was drinking a lot there was a lot of casual
sex going on there was infrequent drug used to
be very didn't really turn to drugs which thank
god i didn't because i was still playing basketball
so that was kind of keeping me on the straight
and narrow but um yeah it just really like irby's
death like completely changed the next four or
five years of my life and like shaped my college
experience and like i basically wasn't feeling
anything for four or five years and it's interesting
to look back and like a lot of that time is really
hard to remember because i think you need an
emotional reaction to situations to remember
them like to encode the memory so because i wasn't
feeling anything like nothing really like nothing
spiked so there's it's all kind of blurry Whereas
now, thank God, I'm back in an emotional life
and I can remember the good and the bad moments
in like a lot more detail, which is thank God
for that. So you have this panic attack, you
know, you have this kind of, you know, aha moment
at that point. Where does that send you as far
as starting to find the healing modalities that
work for you? So luckily, I was doing a course
in psychology, and I was with my friends. So
they took me home, and then the next day, they
were like, you should just go to student counselling.
There's a student counselling service, and a
lot of them were using it. So there was no stigma
between us about going to therapy, which was
huge, especially at that time. We're talking
2014, so 11 years ago. It's a completely different
landscape for encouraging getting help. so that
was fine my friends were like yeah here's the
links here's how you sign up etc um and then
the next step for me and this is probably the
biggest step is like i was really scared to tell
my parents like really really nervous to tell
my parents because again like the stigma and
the anxiety i was like they're gonna think there's
something wrong with me they're gonna think i
let them down they're gonna be disappointed so
i eventually like worked up enough courage to
tell them over dinner one evening and like the
opposite was true like they just wanted me to
be safe and be happy and to get whatever help
i needed just to like get back on track so like
once i had that kind of hurdle jumped and i had
them on my back i was like right we just need
to like like we do this like with basketball
training or studying like we just now need to
just go and do this and just like work at it
So the first, so then I started going to counseling
in college and I was there for, I think it was
like four or five months, maybe six months. And
during this time is when I discovered journaling,
which, you know, because my therapist was kind
of said that like, because you're like not connecting
with emotions and you can't identify emotions,
writing down everything you're feeling in your
body and the thoughts you're feeling will help
you to like kind of reignite that system. And
the way I talk about it is, like, emotions for
me at this time are kind of like, say if you
and one of your friends are, like, in a pool
and you both go underwater and your friend starts
shouting at you underwater. Like, you can see
that he's shouting at you, but you can't hear
anything he's saying. Like, it's completely unintelligible.
That's kind of how emotions felt. I was like,
I know there's something there, but I don't know
what it is. And it's not very strong. And so
writing it down kind of helped to, like, fan
the flame of the emotion. And I was able to,
like, be like, OK, this is sadness. And this
is what sadness feels like and kind of just hold
on to it because I was like, it's better to feel
sad than to feel nothing. And through that process
is kind of how I started writing poetry then,
because my journaling style was very just like
shorthand, like small bursts of kind of thought.
And that's kind of what my poetry style is like.
And I remember one of my journal entries I just
sent to a poet friend of mine in the UK and she
was like. uh you could like probably get this
published in like a journal or something and
i was like oh i wasn't sending it for you for
that reason or whatever uh but so i did i sent
that to a couple of journals and i got that poem
published uh when i was like 22 or 23 and that's
kind of my foray into writing begins then because
i suppose at this time as well in tandem with
that i'd started the blog thoughts too big so
i was writing for men to help specifically and
that didn't really feel like creative writing
it kind of felt more like a I don't know like
a vocation or I was preaching or I was trying
to help or whatever I was trying to do but it
didn't feel like creative and I would have never
really thought of myself as creative I'd put
myself in the boxes like good at school and decent
at basketball I was kind of I took myself out
of the creative box even though like now looking
back I'm in like I'm inherently obviously creative
so that's So going to therapy, it got me out
of depression and introduced me to potentially
playing around with writing. It's funny you say
that it was the preconceived idea that your parents
would have shame about how you were feeling that
was the barrier. And so often when we actually
do the thing. 90, 95 % of the time, it's not
the outcome that we're thinking of. I did skydiving
in New Zealand years ago. And before, I was absolutely
shitting myself, metaphorically and physically.
And it was my girlfriend at the time that got
me signed up. Went up in the plane. Now you're
hanging outside a plane, strapped to a dude.
He flings you out. By the time I landed, I was
ready to become an instructor. I was just like,
this is incredible. You know what I mean? So
it's so crazy how that fear of is crippling.
And most of the time, this example especially,
let's just stay with men for a moment. Men think,
oh, what will people think of me? They'll think
I'm weak. But when they actually just reach out
and say, I'm struggling, it's the opposite. Most
people want to help. No, and it's something I
say to people. now because a lot of times people
are like saying oh but like i don't want to burden
someone with the conversation like i like i don't
want to like make like ruin someone's day by
talking to them a bit like how i'm feeling and
i'm like most people will be glad they're the
person you came to like they'll get something
out of like the fact that you can depend on them
like that will be big for them because it's always
big for me if someone comes to me and tells me
something i'm like well thanks for like trusting
me with this And for thinking like I'm someone
you could tell. So like, it's very rare that
like, I don't think I've ever heard of a case
unless it's like an abusive relationship where
someone's spoken about their mental health and
the other person has been like, will you stop?
I actually don't want to hear this. Like it's,
it's never really happened in my experience.
And, but like, as you said, it was the fear of
like, of what could happen and my kind of preconceived
anxiety. of the worst possible outcome that was
stopping me from getting help for a long time.
What I've learned as we progress through, because
it's funny, you said 2014, you know, as far as
the, you know, kind of pre this conversation
is true, I would say 2016 was about the time
we started having this in the first responder
community in America, at least. And the ones
that were the naysayers, the ones that were out
there saying, it's just weakness, it's being
a pussy, whatever. I know now are the ones that
were probably hurting the most. And so actually,
if you do get that kind of response, obviously,
firstly, find someone else to lean into. But
then secondly, check on that person because they're
still stuck in that old way of thinking. As I
said, like the number of people who aren't ready
is getting smaller, but like you're still going
to have backlash. And I'm sure like. in the communities
you're in like there's probably still people
who are like sure what does james do and like
why is he talking about this and like even my
own content like anything i do about mental health
invariably there's someone saying like terrible
stuff about it and like that's always going to
be the case we're never going to get to 100 but
we can definitely get to a place where a majority
of people are like at least open to the possibility
of this conversation because like a lot of people
in my life still aren't ready to like be totally
vulnerable and like i would never expect everyone
to be like as publicly vulnerable as i've been
but i would like you know to know or to be assured
that like if my friends need to talk they can
talk that's kind of where we want to get for
everyone's like if you need to like you don't
have to always be talking but if you need to
talk that you can i think framing it Which is
completely true. Framing vulnerability as courage
as well. Like it's not cowardice that you're
struggling. And I mean, if you can come out and
say, I need help, that's the ultimate courageous
act. Yeah. Yeah. Like Andrew Porter is a Irish
rugby player. He famously said, like, you can
be strong and vulnerable at the same time. They're
not like working against each other. And as you
said, like, sometimes the most strong thing you
can do is to be like, I'm not. able to do this
on my own like that takes that takes balls absolutely
well thinking about your timeline obviously the
pandemic hit around 2020 what if any impact did
that have on your healing journey it was definitely
a bit of a backslide so before that i i did i
came to dublin briefly to do a master's in linguistics
and i had i definitely had a backslide in with
regards to depression then And it's probably
because I moved to a new city, was out of rhythm
with a routine, didn't know a lot of people,
just kind of slid back into like old habits of
like, I suppose to pre -context that. So the
first time I had depression, I didn't know about
it, didn't know I had it. But then I learned
about it and I learned like what habits and like
symptoms I was displaying. So when it started
to backslide during my master's, which would
have been 2017. I could kind of feel it coming
in terms of like I was wanting to sleep more.
I didn't want to go basketball training. When
I'm experiencing depression, like I find it very
hard to do really simple things like brush my
teeth and shower and make my bed and all this
kind of stuff, like really difficult. So that
happened and I went back to therapy that time
and then similar things started happening during
the pandemic because like I've always relied,
not exclusively, but like fairly heavily on exercise
for my mental health. I think like I like I've
been a gym goer my whole life and I was playing
basketball still at the time and I've done marathons
and all that like I find it like not even from
like I don't really care about the aesthetic
part of it but it's very much like this is good
for my mental health and and in the pandemic
like couldn't go to the gym basketball season
was cancelled and then there was like you can
go two kilometers from your house in Ireland
at one point so I was like starting to seep back
into those kind of depressive behaviors So I
started like making a list of like everything
I could do right now or in the next couple of
hours that would improve my mental health. And
this became like what I call like a mental health
routine. And most of the stuff on it is the exact
same things that would be on your physical health
routine. But I just look at them from like a
mental health perspective. So it's like exercising,
getting enough sleep, drinking enough water,
spending time with friends, spending time on
your own. and they were like the five things
i was like right if i do all these things as
often as i can like obviously you're not going
to spend time with friends every day necessarily
but like two or three times a week to try and
spend time with friends i was like if i do all
these things this is going to give me a baseline
of well -being um and then i like fill out the
rest of the list with stuff i like personally
so for example like i'm a massive marvel nerd
like love marvel so i'm like right every time
a movie's coming out buy a ticket so you have
something to look forward to and i think that's
important having something to look forward to
on the horizon and then for me like obviously
reading is important writing is important some
people might hate that so they wouldn't put that
in their mental health routine but like whatever
you know gives you a bit of joy to put on your
mental health routine and that really helped
and it gave me a kind of like a toolkit of like
if i was feeling anxious or low that i'd be like
right i can go through my list and see what i
haven't been hitting and maybe i'm only getting
five hours of sleep a night or maybe i'm not
drinking enough water or i have an exercise in
two days so it kind of acts as like an alarm
system in that sense where you're like oh i'm
i've been feeling anxious now all day what's
the problem and i can maybe it's something i
can actually change that will help this and then
if i'm like feeling anxious a couple of days
in a row and i'm doing all my mental health stuff
That then alerts me to be like, maybe I need
to seek further help. Maybe I need to check in
with my GP or go back to therapy for a couple
of sessions or whatever it is. It was a really
simple tool that I developed out of necessity
that I've been using ever since. It kept me out
of depression in the pandemic, which was massive.
That's amazing to hear. Did you ever watch the
Marvel film Thunderbolts? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
we're talking about mental health. That was a
phenomenal film to really kind of shine some
light on exactly what we've been talking about,
strength and vulnerability. A hundred percent.
Like I was, I remember I came into that and I
was like, I love that the final battle scene
was a group hug. Like that was like, exactly
like that, that it was great. Yeah. It was great.
And like risky as well for like. even in like
hollywood to be like we're not going to do the
typical superhero thing we're going to like talk
about a real mental health issue and address
it from this angle like so props to them absolutely
but i think also like you know hearing you talking
about that obviously you you'd had the ability
to really create a plan i think there's some
great things sleep deprivation is something i
talk about all the time for example so that alone
can massively impact your mental health but um
retroactively looking at what was done well during
COVID and what was done poorly, you know, and
there's a massive mental health ripple effect
from the isolation, the shutdowns, the loss of
autonomy that I think we need to learn from.
We need to reflect and say, okay, next time,
because it will happen again, there'll be another
virus that's going to be predatory. What can
we do differently so we protect the vulnerable,
but we don't, you know, have this long -term
effect on everyone else that was kind of, you
know, kept from their passions of sports and
nature and community and relationships, you know,
and that way, you know, minimize the long -term
effect of this. Yeah, because I think you hear
a lot in the news and stuff about the COVID kids
or the COVID generation and how as a result of
babies who were born in the pandemic and spent
the first two or three years of their life never
seeing another kid, that they don't know how
to socialize and they lost a lot of really important
developmental skills that they just can't get
back now because of the lockdown. I've always
been a bit suspicious of, like, they released
the suicide statistics for 2020 and 2021 in Ireland.
And those years, for some reason, just dropped
dramatically in the statistics. And I'm like,
I feel like that's not true. You know, I feel
like you're kind of, like, fudging the data so
you don't have to take accountability for the
fact that, like, a massive lockdown caused people
to have serious mental health problems and that
resulted in death. Like, obviously... they don't
want to take responsibility for that and maybe
that's a bit conspiratorial but like it feels
unlikely that it would have dropped like i would
have it would have been more believable if they
said like oh it's it's the same as last year
or like slightly more than last year but if it
dropping in those years is kind of hard to believe
Well, I mean, there's a running joke that, you
know, you could be killed in a car crash and
your death certificate would say COVID. And this
was happening, you know, a lot. It's being attached
to everything. And then conversely. So, yeah,
so say like some, like awfully, like some poor
young fella took his own life, but he happened
to be positive for COVID. They would have said
that was a COVID death. Yeah, exactly. And then
the other way, then shortly after that, people
were saying, yeah, if anyone died, oh, it was
the vaccine. So either way, extremes. It's like,
no, this person was shot with an arrow or whatever
it was. It was neither of those. So, yeah, there
were definitely some. Don't think it was COVID.
All right. Well, then you alluded as well to,
you know, counseling your GP. So we're going
to get to the writing in a moment. I already
want to dive into the poetry in the books. But
before we do, what are other tools in your toolbox?
You talked about hydration and sleep and Marvel
films. What are other things that have helped
you negotiate or excuse me, navigate your way
out of this? well i think like it would be remiss
and just very dishonest if i didn't um talk about
writing in this context as well like we don't
have to get into the weeds of the actual uh what
i've produced but like genuinely like there is
something and this is why i'm so drawn to it
and why i write so much like there is something
i get from just the act of writing that gives
me a lot like I might find it hard to spend time
on my own, but if I'm spending time on my own
and I'm writing and creating, it changes from
loneliness to solitude in that sense. It does
give me a massive amount. So that's another big
tool that's been useful for me. And again, you
watched the TED Talk, so I've talked a lot about
how creativity is really important for mental
health. Writing isn't going to be everyone's
bag. Some people hate writing. I totally understand
why. A lot of people have trauma from school
for writing. But having a creative practice,
I think, whatever it may be, I think is massive.
And I think for whatever reason, and it's probably
linked to concepts of masculinity and femininity,
I feel like men resist a creative practice for...
the sake of itself like if it's not producing
something or gaining them something they're like
what's the point in having creative practice
but like the times i've just sat down and like
because i'm really bad at drawing and painting
but like the times i've sat down and just drawn
or painted i've gotten a lot of like relaxation
and like comfort from it and it's just a bit
of fun like and then you have something that
you've produced at the end and like i hang some
of my paintings up and they're truly terrible
but i'm like i painted that So like, you know,
there's something there and I think it just gives
you a lot and it gives you a place to express
emotions. And especially, again, talk about men
when we're, you know, traditionally bad at expressing
our emotions verbally. Having a creative process
to put your emotions into and express how you're
feeling is huge because then you don't, you can,
in theory, like put the conversation on the long
finger and express it through your art. And like,
I constantly do that. with my poetry and with
my writing and sometimes like I won't even know
I'm feeling a certain way until I write about
it and I'm like oh I've been like really stressed
about that and I didn't even really consciously
know until I started writing about it so that's
that's a tool like creativity um and then I spoke
about you know learning to spend time with yourself
um and I wrote I read this really good book it's
called Solitude by a guy named Michael Harris
and he talks about the benefits of solitude um
and how we've lost the kind of skill for solitude
in modern life because like you know the example
he uses like if you're sitting at home on your
own and there's no tv on and there's no podcast
and you're just sitting he's like what's the
first thing you do it's like within the first
30 seconds you whip out your phone and you start
scrolling like we're we're kind of we've conditioned
ourselves to like be afraid of boredom and he
talks about like all the massive brain benefits
of like allowing your brain to go idle and he
he cites like how all these great minds like
your yates and your oscar wilde and your einsteins
like quote these big long walks they used to
take and obviously they didn't have podcasts
back then or anything so they'd just be going
for walks on their own and they that's when they
got their ideas because your your brain starts
wandering and starts connecting things and then
that's when they have their moments of like that's
how i finished that story or that's how i finished
that equation or that's how i finished that piece
of work it's like you do need to find a way to
spend time with yourself and i think if you can
anything that happens you can deal with because
you're comfortable on your own and this is coming
from someone who like when i was depressed the
very last thing I wanted to do is spend time
on my own. I avoided it at all costs because
that's when things were the worst. So I, you
know, have had to teach myself how to be on my
own. And it's like a kind of compared to like
a meditative practice. Like if you've never meditated,
you don't just sit down and meditate for an hour
first time. You do like two minutes, five minutes,
10 minutes, you build it up. So it's the same
with like learning to be on your own. It's like,
all right, I'm going to sit here for five minutes
and with nothing. and see what happens and that's
how you learn to like i think and yeah spend
time on your own um because i think like looking
back if i had that skill during the pandemic
when we're all on our own if i was like able
to like spend time with myself it would have
been a lot easier it still wouldn't have been
great but it would have been more manageable
because it'd be like right i know how to spend
time with myself and i think that is a really
important point like it is a relationship with
yourself it's not like you're just on your own
like it is like how you talk yourself how you
think like the conversation between you and you
is a real thing and it's how you get to know
yourself and what you want and what you don't
want and what you like and where you want to
go and like getting to know someone else if you
want to get to know yourself you have to spend
the time so i do think of it like that like not
in a kind of crazy way where i think there's
two versions of me but like very much like to
get to know myself i need to spend the time to
get to know myself so therefore sit down here
and do nothing. I can relate for several reasons.
Firstly, when I take my dog for a walk, and that's
usually twice a day for like 30 minutes, 40 minutes,
I always leave my phone behind. So that way it's
not a distraction. I don't listen to music, don't
listen to podcasts, anything. I just walk my
dog. And it's amazing how that's when, as you
said, things will start popping up. And I've
written two books now. The last one was kind
of a fiction, pseudo, almost historical fiction.
And these ideas just come out of nowhere. And
it's crazy, but you cannot have the capacity
for, you know, not even original thought, but
these unique thoughts, if you like, if you've
got this busy mind. And I use NuCalm, which is
like a down regulation app that you can use.
I use Headspace to do meditation. And not again,
not diligently every single day, but understanding
when my mind is getting busy, that monkey mind.
And it's incredible when you force yourself to
be present, the incredible thoughts and concepts
that start presenting themselves. But when you're,
like you said, immediately from the car to the
TV, to the app, to the podcast, to the whatever,
you literally haven't given your brain the ability
to take a breath and go, have you thought about
this? Yeah, no, like a spot on. a perfect example
of like the concept Michael Harris is talking
about and like it is always the case because
like you can even like there's proof of concept
in like your own life as well like because I
never get the idea for like the poem or the book
when I'm sitting ready to write it's like when
I'm out chatting to a friend over coffee or I'm
in the shower or I'm on the walk it's like when
I'm actually like present in what I'm doing that's
when the things go like look at this as opposed
to being like just distracting myself the whole
time so like yeah absolutely well talk to me
then about the catharsis so you know when when
i wrote these books you said about people hate
right and i had a kind of love hate relationship
when i got into that flow and things would vomit
out of my head it was amazing but there were
other times where i'm looking at the blinking
cursor and it's you know it's frustrating it's
the opposite but you know getting this out of
my mind and onto the page i did feel this kind
of you know weight off the shoulders element
so talk to me about the kind of the journey that
you've had with poetry and how that's been you
know related to the upswing of your own mental
health yeah and it's interesting like because
even to this well not to this day that would
be untrue but like for most of my writing career
poetry has been the kind of to equate it to like
doodling on the side of the page when you don't
want to do your work like that's that's how poetry
started like so i'd be writing because i started
like my first book was a collection of short
stories and so was the second one and then i
did a collection of essays on mental health called
lonely boy which i imagine kind of had the similar
characters as you whereas like i was getting
all this stuff out of me it was like doing self
-therapy it was absolutely amazing to write And
then, like, when I was getting to that place
where I couldn't, like, get in the flow, that's
where I'd be like, right, let's try a poem. It
was kind of like the step away and do the poem.
And now, obviously, like, in the last couple
of years, I've become, the thing I'm known most
for is my poetry. And I feel like it was kind
of the mistress in my writing career for so long,
like I was kind of like doing it on the side.
So for a long time, I wasn't taking it massively
seriously. And I think maybe that is part of
the reason there's been success, because I wasn't
like overcooking it or overthinking it. I was
just like, here's a thought, I'll make a poem
out of it. And then I was like really trying
hard with the essays and short stories, and they
were almost harder to get out as a result. So
it's always been just like a fun thing I've done,
in particular the poetry, like just a kind of
fun thing, like let's explore this idea. short
and creative way to train like and always trying
to make it like relatable to the sense of like
it would be great for people to know they're
not how they're feeling isn't like unique to
them that like this is a universal human experience
someone else is feeling it you're not alone in
this and that's how I've always come at poetry
and all my writing to a degree um and there is
just a lot of like you know this feeling of like
accomplishment when you like finish a piece and
you really feel like you've kind of grasped the
entire concept in like 15 lines of poetry or
like that's how it feels like that's a snapshot
of how that feels or how that conversation went
or how that experience was like there it is and
there's like a real feeling of like we did something
today like we got something done today and it's
that and I think that is the probably the feeling
i'm always chasing is like how can i like i want
to express this universal human experience in
the best way possible so that when someone else
reads it they'll be like because this is the
one compliment i get that i have this is my favorite
thing ever when people say i've always felt like
that i just never knew how to put it into words
that is the best like there's nothing to beat
that and that's kind of what i get out of it
like if someone says that to me i'm like right
we did good Is there a correlation between the
poems that hit you the hardest that you write
and the popularity or the impact that they have
on other people? There's almost a negative correlation,
to be honest. So it's always the ones it's like,
for example, like if I ever have boys or that
day. Well, prior to that, I posted that poem
before, not that exact same video, but like me
just to my phone. And it did fine. It got like
maybe like 15 ,000 views. It was good. And then
that day that I posted that specific video, it
was very much a case of like, right, I had that
like that whole set that I did, you know, chopped
up and ready to go. And I had nothing like ready
to post for that day. So I was like, I'll just
put this one up. I'll just throw this up. And
then it like overnight, I woke up the next day
and I was like, what the hell is going on? So
like, I didn't expect that to do what it did.
And that always kind of seems to be the case
because there's another poem. I have called Tob
Rónarm, which in Irish means I am sad. And it's
just an exploration of, you know, how the Irish
language kind of addresses language because like
the direct or addresses emotion because the direct
translation for Tob Rónarm is sadness is upon
me. So say like sadness isn't like connected
to you or you're not actually sadness is just
on you. And it's it's a really lovely way to
to address emotions. But again, I thought that
poem was just like middle of the road. I haven't
really connected with it that much. And then
that poem also goes up. So like, yeah, it's almost
like the ones I really love. People are like
whatever. And the ones I'm kind of like, I don't
know, people love. So it's it's hard. It's hard
to navigate. So if you are able to, I would love
to firstly hear you read If I Ever Have Boys.
And I want to just talk about that because I
think, you know, I mean, the popularity I really
believe is because there is a yearning now to
make the world better, to make the world kinder
and, you know, the parents of the world. We're
at the wheel of this. You can either create kind,
strong, compassionate children, or we can pour
this kind of divisiveness that we've been exposed
to into our kids and then create more issues.
And then we'll contrast that with one of your
specific favorite poems, if you'd like. But I'd
love, if that's okay, to get you to read If I
Ever Have Boys. Yeah, no problem. So yeah, this
is the If I Ever Have Boys, which is in response
to Dangerous Men by Lucas Jones. If I ever have
boys, they'll be dangerous men. They'll smile
at dogs and children and be a tonic to friends.
They'll send flowers to their mother just because
and they'll be a shoulder for many when the world
is too much. My boys will know that vulnerability
is strength. They won't battle anger, they'll
learn how to express. They won't let pride be
the reason they hide wearing masks while they're
hurting inside. My boys will be dangerous men.
They won't stay silent even when it's uncomfortable
for them. They'll learn that their actions are
more effective than words, but they'll use their
voices to amplify the unheard. They'll know that
love isn't something to perform. They'll see
beauty in all of its forms. My boys won't grow
learning to emotionally hide. They'll reshape
masculinity into something they like, make it
softer to touch. They'll know that who they are
is more than enough. They'll know that being
a man doesn't mean carrying the burden alone.
They'll learn that an emotional man is a man
fully grown. They won't settle everything with
violent swings. They live in truth even when
that truth stinks. So yeah, if I ever have boys,
they'll be dangerous men. But the danger they'll
be won't be the one society meant. I absolutely
love it. I mean, I... My whole parenting ethos
has been kindness. So I'll give you a quick backstory.
When my son was tiny, like a little toddler,
I'd give him a little pat on the thigh. If he
did something he wasn't supposed to be doing,
like a gentle pat on the thigh. And then as he
got a little bit older, the timeout thing was
big here in America. And so the whole purpose
is you put them in a corner and you say, you
can't come out. And it's for every year that
they are old, it's supposed to be a minute in
timeout. And then you tell them, okay, this is
why you were in timeout. Do you understand what
you did? And then you say, you can leave now.
Well, my son called my bluff and said, I don't
want to leave. And I was like, well, fuck, that
doesn't work anymore. He was at an age where
he was finally really understand me. And so I
shifted to, is what you are doing kind? That's
it. And that was the principle. And he's 18 years
old now. At the same time, putting him in jujitsu,
you know, and soccer and CrossFit and all these
things where he was becoming a strong, you know,
arguably pseudo dangerous child into an adult.
And so using that strength when it's needed to
protect the vulnerable, to speak for the vulnerable,
I think is a beautiful message. It's what we
need because I grew up, my generation was the
Stallone, Schwarzenegger, you know, bodybuilder.
take everyone out around the back and beat them
up. That'll teach them a lesson, put the nose
in the brain, all this bullshit that we were
taught. And it's rubbish. It's rubbish because
the World War II generation weren't talking like
that. You know what I mean? So this is what really
resonated with me with that poem is I felt like
it was the exact message that our young boys
and our parents need to hear in 2025. no i appreciate
that and i think yeah that that question that
question is so simple but so effective like is
what you're doing kind because that's if you
ask that question you get you get to the root
of the problem pretty quickly in every situation
but with the poem like because obviously like
there's some people who are like oh this is like
whatever uh like castrating men or whatever it's
like reducing men to something that isn't masculine
i'm like no the point is that like obviously
men have like an increased like physical ability
and we have the potential to to hurt basically
anyone around us and it's to use that like you
know it's the spider man thing with great power
comes great responsibility to use that like that
advantage for like good and to be compassionate
and kind and to you know if if it's in a crowd
of say like a crowd and there's mostly men like
it's probably going to be very dangerous and
scary for a woman to stand up and speak out but
like to use your voice as a man to be like this
isn't okay we can't be doing this like and to
be that man um is what it's about it's not about
like reducing men down it's to use what we have
for like the greater good which i think is like
inherently obvious for like good men like good
men know that it's kind of for So it's mainly
like a reminder to good men and then like a call
out to bad men to be like, we need to do better.
I've had a real awakening the last year or so
where I realize a lot of people that are behind
very heinous acts are simply themselves suffering
from mental ill health. Again, it means that
compassionately, empathetically, that if you
went back to... You know, whether it's the troubles
in Northern Ireland, whether it's what's going
on in Gaza, whether it was the people that were
behind the decisions for the potato famine, you
know, 100 plus years ago, whatever it was that
these people could sleep soundly doing such horrific
things, whether it's with money, with weapons,
with their fists, you know, that that is a mental
health crisis. And I think this, you know, the
poem is really showing the ultimate courage is
working on yourself. Like if you heal yourself,
then you're a baby. able to then be a good parent
and then start molding your child to be kind
and compassionate and strong and then you walk
out into your community and you're kind and compassionate
and strong but with and i just did a video on
this yesterday with this kind of rhetoric that's
banging around at the moment with this kind of
anti -immigration um you know feeling air quotes
i just see a lot of a lot of hurt men, you know,
hurt people, hurt people. And, you know, yes,
there are areas where some, you know, immigration
policies need to be overwatched so that we're
not just opening floodgates for certain groups.
I totally understand that. But a lot of horrendous
things in our history happened when we painted
the boogeyman and we said that group of people
are the bad guys. And so I think, again, circling
around to kindness and compassion, you know,
if you're if you're the head of a, you know,
a drug company that produces oxycontin that creates
an opioid crisis, you know, or, you know, a chemical
company that is poisoning the planet with forever
chemicals. And, you know, you're sleeping at
night. That's the same person, the same kind
of person. So putting that kindness and compassion
lens, even on the. the arguably sociopaths of
the world is still the same conversation is it
kind or is it unkind and the more we can heal
ourselves in the middle the more we can then
start pushing the boundaries left and right and
then in you know kind of enclosing more and more
people in their healing journey as well yeah
i mean no notes man you absolutely nailed that
i think yeah like genuinely like it's so true
that if you can be someone who's you know heading
up a genocide or even being on the side of a
genocide or yeah like just allowing horrible
things to happen to your brothers and sisters
because we're all humans and we're all we're
all in this together like we're all alone in
this together if you're happy to let that go
on and you can sleep soundly at night then yeah
there is something off like and i think that's
a planet -wide sickness you know that's a yeah
just global mental health which is i don't i
don't it's such a big problem to solve but i
think we we don't have to solve it all at once
it's all incremental stuff it's all a poem here
a conversation here get get people talking like
that's how we change the tide because there's
no way to just like unfortunately like just wave
a magic wand and be like stop that that's not
good yeah And I would say you want to change
the world, start a home. So the only ability
everyone listening has that you have, that I
have is to look in the mirror and go, well, what
do I need to do to myself first? You know, my
own self -work and then who else are, you know,
am I sharing this home with? How can I positively
affect them? If a hundred million people did
that, imagine, imagine the change. So, and this
is the thing with your poetry, with the book
that I'm turning into a show. I mean, the reach
of some of these things now. And potentially,
as you said, that one poem went viral. So we
do have the ability to put these positive messages
out and then walk the walk, not just be standing
on some ivory tower. I think that there is really
a desire for a renaissance of kindness, compassion,
and community. I really do. I'm just so incurably
optimistic about that. I refuse to believe that
people aren't inherently good. So we just got
to refine that part of us. yeah no for sure like
i think you kind of have to live with that believe
in your heart to make it through the day at the
moment that like good will prevail like um that
there are still good people it's just we're in
a dark place in the world right now we've been
here for a while but that doesn't mean we can
come we can't come out of it it's just going
to take some some graft and some patience i think
absolutely well that was one of the the poems
that you said really took off when it was put
on social media what about one of your your favorite
ones if you want to read one of those one of
my favorite ones okay okay this one's short but
i i really like this one and it kind of honestly
this wasn't even planned but this uh kind of
touches on a lot of what we've already been talking
about uh so this is called those who hold You
can tell a lot about a person by how they handle
pain. Some people are afraid to touch it, to
have it. They hold it like a childless adult
holds a baby, uncomfortable wanting to give it
to anyone else. And sometimes they do, projecting
pain like movies onto whoever comes near. But
there are others who accept pain, draw it in
close and hold it tight like an old friend, nurse
it back to help. And these people are the entire
sky. They have capacity for not just their own,
but the pain of others too. The same way the
sky can hold an infinity of clouds and not shatter.
These people are miracles. Taking suffering from
those who can't hold it any longer. Beautiful.
Thank you. When I hear people talking about navigating
their own crucible when they were in the darkest
of places, and again, not to suggest for a moment
that everyone that comes out the other side is
perfectly healed and never has a struggle again,
but come through that kind of healing journey,
as it were. Over and over again, people seem
to come out the woodwork and say, I'm struggling
too. How did you do that? And that in itself,
the ability to then be able to help. further
bolsters their own healing journey what have
you seen as far as that with your poetry and
writing i mean over the years like i've been
doing this work for almost 11 years now i started
when i was like 20 with the mental health stuff
and the poetry whatever else and there's always
like always messages of people like they just
want to get something off your chest and they
they just want to talk and sometimes people just
come out with it and they just that's the first
message and some people ask and i think you know
both are fine um but i think the things that
like there are certain moments where like the
universe kind of tells you you're on the right
path um i remember last september and this again
is like an example of a poem that i was just
like i just need to put something up today because
of the day it is so it was world suicide prevention
day And obviously I do a lot of work specifically
about suicide because of what happened. So I
put up a poem. I was on the road somewhere and
I wrote a poem in my hotel room and I recorded
it in that hotel room. And then I put it up and
I was like, OK, that's us covered for Suicide
Prevention Day. I probably haven't done enough
this year, but I was just busy. And then two
days later, I got a message on TikTok of a woman.
And in short, she was like. I was about to take
my own life I listened to your poem and then
I listened to it again and I listened to it again
and I'm still here and she just wanted to say
thanks and that she was gonna she was still struggling
but she was gonna try and find help and that
the poem really helped and I was like just blown
away by that like that you know whatever a bit
like things can go viral you can have loads of
followers and stuff but like to be able to like
know for sure that like something i've written
has saved someone's life is really like it makes
me uncomfortable but it's it's massive like it's
a huge honor and i don't take it lightly because
like you know it gets to the point where you
are affecting people's lives and you can either
do it negatively or positively and i think that
for me is a sign that like you know i i chose
the right path because there was there was a
time where it could have gotten very dark and
i could have become a different man and i was
becoming a different man and i got the help i
needed and i started writing as a result of that
and i remember when that happened with that message
one of my closest friends um text me and he was
like you've done all this work for the last 10
years to save that woman's life that was that's
what it was all for and i was like that is an
insane thing to try and think about but yeah
i think that's the best example i have of like
my own healing helping someone else and their
journey with that helping me i think that that's
was huge i mean i say this a lot you know i've
done over 1 ,100 conversations now. And it's
the same thing. It's all free that I put out
there. And if it helps one single person, then
it was worth it. Obviously, your poetry, this
podcast, my books, your books. Even though we
may not know it, we know that they're going to
make even more of an impact than that. But it
doesn't matter. One human life is still worth
all of this effort. And when you were talking
about that story, as I progressed through these
hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of conversations,
One of the things that really became apparent
was as someone experiences that kind of perfect
storm of all the contributing factors that lead
someone towards suicide ideation, the brain becomes
truly miswired. Whether it's unaddressed childhood
trauma, sleep deprivation, organizational betrayal,
side effects of psych meds and alcohol and all
the things. And at that point, There's a shift
where, you know, of course, there's one part
where someone just wants the suffering to end,
this crippling depression, the pain, etc. But
then there's another part that people don't normally
talk about, which is there's a voice that starts
convincing someone that they are the reason for
their loved one's pain. And if they just remove
themselves, everyone will be happier. And that's
a complete fallacy that we can see that with
a healthy mind from the outside looking in. But
in that moment, which is reframe suicide a lot
of times, because if that's what someone really
believes at that moment in that distorted frame
of mind, that suicide is actually very selfless
and courageous, not cowardly and selfish. But
to pull that person back from that metaphorical
ledge, to give their mind a moment to just realize,
whoa, what the hell was going on? What were we
trying to convince you that was wrong? Might
be a song. might be a poem, might be a phone
call. And so this is where I think these are
so important because I've had people, Emma, Kevin
Hines, who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge
and survived. The moment that trigger is squeezed,
the moment that they let go of that railing,
immediately they snap back to reality, but it's
too late. So if a phone call, if a dog walking
in, if whatever it is, like I said, a poem. can
pull someone from that psychosis for a second.
And I mean that use that term deliberately because
it's a distorted way of thinking at that moment,
then it really is saving a life. It really is.
So this is why all these mediums, you know, are
important, whether it's, you know, like you said,
written word, whether it's, you know, someone
might just look at a picture and have this thought,
they might just look out the window and see,
you know, something beautiful outside. But if
the world is devoid of all these positive influences.
there aren't going to be those moments that are
going to be just enough to pull that person back
from the brink. Yeah, no, it's so true. It reminds
me of, have you ever seen that Ethan Hawke video
where he's like, no one gives a shit about poetry
until they need it. It's like when someone dies
and there's, yeah, it is very much, it's a really
important point to make because, you know, you
do have that old kind of tired trope of people
saying that like suicide is selfish. but like
the people who are in that place truly think
they're doing everyone a favor like they think
they're the problem so i think it's really important
to to say that as much as we can that like they're
not doing this out of like selfishness at all
it's very much the thinking you were describing
um and yes and to provide in any capacity where
they're as you said it's a podcast or a poem
that kind of circuit breaker to give them a little
break to be like What the fuck am I doing? Yeah.
I mean, in that sense, throw as much shit as
well as you can and see what it sticks like,
whatever works. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't
even necessarily have to be that deep. It can
just be something. It could be a joke. Absolutely.
Well, we've talked about your journey, you know,
as far as short stories and then poetry. What
are you projecting is next? The more of the same
as far as, you know, staying within this medium
or are you starting to even expand in other areas?
So, yeah, so I've done the poetry, the essays,
the short fiction. I've just, I've written the
first draft of a novel and that kind of, it's
like a fictionalization of like the, the events
of my 17 year old year when my best friend died
and the kind of aftermath of that. It's kind
of a fictionalization of that. So would like
to get that published soon. there'll always be
more poetry there'll never not be poetry uh but
though i think the thing i'm most excited about
at the moment is i recently started collaborating
with a british artist named throwing snow who's
a producer and he makes like electronic music
and we're making a kind of spoken word electronic
album uh so we released our first song in june
and that went really well we've got a lot of
like radio time and all that stuff you want to
see um and since then we've recorded like I want
to say like 18 songs, spoken word and electronic.
And it's been so much fun because like, you know,
the thing I would call my career is the writing
the books. So doing music is kind of just like
a bonus round and it's all fun and it's all new
and I have no expectations for it. So there's
no like stress involved. It's just been a really
fun outlet to collaborate with another artist.
I obviously I'm biased, but I think we're making
something quite exciting and I'm excited to see
where it goes. So that's kind of the main next
thing. And yeah, to get the next book, get the
novel published is the next step for that. And
then, like, honestly, like. I have never planned
a day in my life. Everything that's happened
to me so far has come from writing and I've gotten
a lot of amazing opportunities over the years.
So I'll just continue to lean on that. The writing
works. I'll keep writing. I love writing. And
every opportunity that comes will take. I listened
to Alan Watts' Spotify playlist. And a lot of
those are exactly like you're talking about.
It's spoken word, but with the ambient music
of the background. And it just adds another layer
to it when you put music together with poetry.
Yeah, it does. And that's why poetry works so
well on social media. I've done this a lot where
I'll hand the written version of a poem to a
friend and they'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, cool.
And then I'll show them a video of me performing
it with music and it will actually connect. And
they'll be like, holy fuck, it'll be a completely
more intense reaction. So I think the music poetry
connection is, yeah, it's huge. So where... can
people listening find the books, the poetry and
anything else that you're putting out at the
moment? So everything is available online. The
books are available in bookshops in Ireland and
the UK and probably obscure ones in some random
US state somewhere. But they're all available
online. So my website's thoughts2big .ie. I'm
at Dara Fleming everywhere. to be extremely lazy
if you would like to find a book i really appreciate
it and the easiest way to do that is probably
just google darren fleming and they pop up absolutely
yeah you got a unique name you pop up straight
away all right well i want to throw some quick
closing questions at you before i let you go
if that's okay all right we talked about your
work is there a book or are there books that
you love to recommend written by other people
it can be related to our discussion today or
completely unrelated First one that always comes
to mind is Anything by Max Porter. His last book
was called Shy. Grief is a Thing with Fedders
by Max Porter is good. Anything he's written,
absolutely amazing. He writes like novels in
poetic verse, absolutely class. My favorite poetry
chapbook is called Notes in an Emergency by Frank
O 'Hara. It's about New York in like the 60s
and 70s. Absolutely brilliant. And then like,
I wouldn't be a true Irishman if I didn't recommend
half of the Irish writers. So Patrick Holloway,
Lucy Holmes, Kevin Barry, Wendy Erickson. We,
at the moment, I think it's, to be fair, it's
always been true. But at the moment we have like
such a level of talent in terms of like writing,
whether it's poetry or novels or TV or movies
coming out of Ireland. So like, yeah, just check
it, literally anyone and you'll be satisfied.
Have you ever crossed paths with a poet called
Jair Devine? No. So he is a Dublin firefighter
and also a poet. Jair Devine. Hold on. Hold on.
I have. I have. Yeah. No, sorry. I have. Yeah.
He was on the show two St. Patrick's Days ago.
We had a Guinness and did an interview. He did
a gig there the other day in Arethbobel, it's
called, and it just popped up on my Instagram
the other day. Yeah, I've met. I've done a gig
with him and everything. There we go. Brilliant.
Yeah. An amazing guy. All right. Well, the next
question, what about films and documentaries
that you love? Films and documentaries. Like
my favorite movie ever is Good Will Hunting.
Just a classic. Robin Williams, that was absolutely
the best. I have to just not even, no, probably
contractually at this point, Spider -Man. Gotta
do Spider -Man. I'm a massive Spider -Man fan.
Like just complete perfection, any of them. no
i don't really watch a lot of documentaries what
i've been watching recently and i love slow horses
if you haven't seen it on apple tv that was brilliant
yeah so good um but yeah i don't like i don't
watch a massive amount of tv but when i do it
tends to be like trash like it's the office or
it's parks and rec or something you know but
my favorite movie Good Will Hunting, There Will
Be Blood, another great one. There's a movie
called Two Popes, which is about when Pope Francis
took over from Pope Benedict and their kind of
relationship. And it's actually, and I'm not
religious or anything, but it's actually class.
Such an interesting insight into how the way
we view these pious people are actually just
human beings who have their own agendas and it's
all kind of manipulative. as well um but yeah
they're my wrecks not the best there was that
show and i'm forgetting what it was called now
but ricky gervais did it on grief and death i
don't know if you saw after life after that was
fantastic yeah really good really good all right
well speaking of great people is there a person
that you recommend to come on this podcast as
a guest to speak to the first responders military
and associated professions of the world another
good question lots of people coming to mind i
could obviously recommend a lot of poets but
who i think would be really good there is a poet
named emin o 'brien from dublin um he's like
a working class um poet from the north of dublin
and he's absolutely incredible he's an incredible
performer and has a really interesting story
he works um he teaches poetry in prisons in dublin
um yeah just a great and just a great hang great
crack you get good conversation at all that's
that's another whole area we're talking about
kindness and compassion i had uh the supervisor
or superintendent excuse me of uh bastoy prison
in norway on a couple of times now tom ever and
when you look at that model you know all the
proactive um Elements where, again, you're talking
about looking at the popes as humans, well, prisoners
are humans. People that, again, started off as
giggling little babies and then their life took
them to an area where maybe it wasn't full of
kindness and compassion and mistakes were made.
But the recidivism rate in Norway is incredibly
low. It's because they invest in their incarcerated
men and women. Because they will move back next
door to you one day. I think 95 % of prisoners
will. So when you hear about these proactive
programs in prisons around the world, it's always
intriguing. For sure. All right. Well, then the
last question, before we make sure everyone knows
where to find you on all the platforms, we'll
underline that again. What do you do to decompress?
Oh, well, I exercise a lot. I'm always in the
gym or going for runs. I mean, watching Trash
TV, as I said, I am a fiend for Trash TV. I do
love it. Reading, it's apparently part of my
job, but I also just read to relax as well. And
then the simple stuff, and it's kind of what
we talked about earlier, like hanging out with
people I like. like really helps me to unwind
like actually having good conversations in real
life with good people is if i'm ever having a
day where i'm feeling like wound up or stressed
or anxious if i just hang out with a good friend
like usually sorts itself it's really important
and because we live in this world where we're
all in our own bubbles isolated but connected
to thousands of people but maybe spending all
of our time on our own i think having a couple
of good friends to hang out with is a cure for
that And do you play basketball now? I don't,
but I do miss it. So I stopped playing in 2020
and then I moved to Barcelona in 2023. So I hadn't
played for three years, but I started playing
pickup basketball again in Barcelona, just like,
you know, casual enough. And that kind of gave
me the bug for it again. So I might, Dublin's
a great basketball town, so I might find a team
and lock in again. And what was it took you to
Spain? kind of like a lot of things just because
I could one but like mainly like I was looking
for a place to rent in Cork and I couldn't find
one so and I had friends I had a lot of friends
living in Barcelona so I was like I'll just move
there it'll be cheaper there's definitely places
to rent and I can live in the sun for a couple
years and it was a great time but it kind of
felt like I was just taking a break from my real
life It was like a two -year holiday kind of
thing. So I was like, I should probably get back
to it. All right. So just one more time for people
listening. Where are the best places? Social
media. And what's the name of the website? um
so the best social media instagram tiktok at
darren fleming that's probably where i'm most
active and then my website tossed to big .ie
it's primarily just once a week i do a mental
health blog kind of go through what i was dealing
with during the week just to kind of normalize
that conversation there are three spots Brilliant.
Well, Dara, I want to thank you so much. Firstly,
like I said, just for putting your poetry out.
Obviously, it hit a lot of people. That's how
we were connected in the first place. And secondly,
for being courageous, having that vulnerability
and telling your story. So I want to thank you
so, so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so
much.