This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Geering, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show co -founder of Ambio and
the Canadian Psychedelic Association, Trevor
Miller. Now, what makes this conversation so
powerful is that there are many of my guests
whose lives were literally saved through Ibogaine
with Ambio. So we discuss a host of topics from
Trevor's own journey into the world of psychedelics,
the formation of veterans exploring treatment
solutions, healing traumatic brain injury, overcoming
addiction, the 343 Fund helping first responders.
the failure of drug prohibition, and so much
more. Now, before I get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Trevor Millar. Enjoy. Well, Trevor, I
want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time and coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast today. Thanks so much for having
me, James. Excited to be here. Likewise, likewise.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? I am in my home in Tijuana, Mexico,
one place that I never thought I would end up
living, but I've been here for four years and
it's kind of grown on me. Well, I want to get
to your life story, but just before we do, when
people hear Tijuana, I actually used to live
in California, worked for a fire department there.
So that was definitely somewhere that the lads
would go to on vacation. But then you also hear
about, you know, some of the dangers and challenges.
So before we even get into what, you know, why
you're there now, talk to me about living in
that area. Is it as dangerous as we see on the
news or is there a little scaremongering going
on? I think there's definitely some scaremongering
going on. We bump into that all the time, people
scared of coming to Tijuana. And that's the first
thing I say is just turn off the news. Me and
my beautiful fiance have lived here for the last
four years. And really, we haven't felt unsafe
for a second. I'm pretty sure the 25 -year -old
me could have found some trouble in Tijuana.
But I think unless you're looking for it, I don't
think you'll find it. What about... What's going
on here with a lot of the Mexican men, women
and children that may be not fully legally documented?
Are you seeing any sort of kind of ripple effect
on the other side of the border? The only thing
I saw was this hilarious billboard saying Trump
doesn't want you. We do. Come work at our call
center. That's the only thing I've seen even
closely related to that on the ground here. But,
you know, I have some Mexican community for sure.
A lot of Mexican community. Most of my friends
down here are Mexican. But, you know, I'm sure
they and their families have probably seen more
impact than I would. Well, we'll circle around
to. drug prohibition and why we even see some
of the issues that we do in a little bit. But
let's start at the very beginning of your timeline.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, I was born
in a town called Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.
It is about an hour west of Toronto. And my parents
are still alive. They are still married. They've
been married for more than 50 years. My father
is an auto mechanic by trade, and then he bought
into a business that was a fuel injection repair
business. So he was the co -owner of a business.
So I think that's where I got a bit of my entrepreneurial
spark, perhaps, was knowing that you can own
your own business through seeing my dad do it.
And then my mom is a nurse and a nurse practitioner.
So my mom... you know, has been a nurse for more
than 40 years. She, in her later life, kind of
put herself through correspondence school. So
I have memories of her sitting at the table for
hours on end, getting her BA, then getting her
master's, and then becoming a nurse practitioner.
So she's a real inspiration. And I think kind
of the healing aspect of it. My background comes
from, you know, knowing what a nurse does and
seeing my mom do that day in and day out. My
sister, I have one sister. She's three years
younger than me, two school years younger than
me. But she her name is Kristen. She's fantastic.
She lives in Australia. She has four kids married
to a lovely dude, Bradley. And they have three
girls. And now Cameron's the youngest boy at
about eight years old. And, yeah, I'd say it
was a very idyllic life growing up. There was,
you know, I can't pinpoint any serious traumatic
events that happened to me. My friends, I have
a super solid friend group. I was just thinking
about this last night. Like, my best friends
in the world are still, you know, the five or
six dudes that I grew up with. Yeah, finished
high school and was never a very good academic.
I didn't want to go to university. I don't know
if I could have gotten in. I'm sure I could have
gotten into university if I pushed, but I definitely
wanted to take a year off. So for that year off,
I started working the front desk at a holiday
inn in Cambridge, Ontario. I had been a lifeguard
at that hotel growing up. That's kind of my sport
is swimming. I was a competitive swimmer. And
after that year at the front desk, I had a girlfriend
at the time, and she was a dancer, and she got
a job dancing on a cruise ship. So she basically
said, I'm leaving in two weeks. And when she
made that call, I said, I'm moving west. I had
been a skier growing up as well, been skiing
since I was six years old. and uh moved to the
mountains so moved to whistler british columbia
and uh i had some friends who already had moved
there and some some older brothers of some buddies
of mine and uh i started working the holiday
in there and because i had um been Working, I
knew the systems. I was training people my first
day at that hotel. So I was 19 years old, training
people on the first day that I arrived because
Whistler's a very transient town. Nobody really
knew the systems there. So I became the front
desk manager of that hotel within a couple of
months at 19 years old, which is crazy. Whistler's
a resort town, a lot of partying, a lot of fun.
A lot of perks. And I was able to offer perks
to people being this hotel manager. So I could
give away hotel rooms for friends and family
coming in to people that worked around the town.
So I never waited in line anywhere. I got free
meals wherever I went. I had an older brother
come and visit. A good buddy's older brother
come and visit a couple years into that. And
he's like, Trev. you like the godfather around
here so that was pretty great at 19 years old
thought i would stay in the hospitality industry
for the rest of my life at that time i think
but moved to vancouver in 20 or 2001 2000 maybe
and uh opened up the hilton hotel there and Yeah,
I've gone farther than what you've been asking
for. Should I pause there? No, I've got a couple
of things. So firstly, more current. Whistler,
isn't that one of the places that has the longest
ski season because of the elevation? Yeah, I
don't know that it's long. It is actually longest
because the glaciers you can basically always
access. Like you can ski until mid -August on
the glacier. So it'll go from it'll open up around
U .S. Thanksgiving, which is around November
22nd kind of thing. And it'll go until, you know,
the real hills, the full mountain, you're going
to go until about mid -April. But you can always
hit that glacier up until mid -August. It's pretty
awesome. What about is interesting with each
of your parents? So starting with your dad first,
being a mechanic and working with fuel injection
specifically. what have been the conversation
if any about um the pros and cons of hybrid electric
cars you know full gas etc um my my dad always
had this line when we heard a uh heard or smelt
diesel and he's like ah it's the smell of money
so i don't know they you know my dad he worked
at a ford dealership in He was the service manager
at a Ford dealership in the early years and then
I thought he was like a Ford man for life but
now he's driving a Honda CR -V with great mileage.
I think he'd be totally into electric. He's also
retired now so he doesn't have to fear for his
well -being. What about your mother as far as
the healthcare system over the span of her career?
What have been some of the observations again
of pros and cons, et cetera? Yeah, I think she's,
you know, she's kind of like, she works in the
cardiac unit. So that's her specialty. They put
a lot of stints in hearts. They really. do save
a lot of lives through what she does. I think
she retired five years ago, but she still works
a few days a week. I think that's coming to an
end pretty soon. The interesting thing around
the healthcare system and her perspective on
it and me is when I started working with this
very obscure plant medicine. and had to make
the phone call to her and said yeah you know
that stuff i've been posting about on facebook
yeah well i moved out of vancouver opened out
a house opened up a house providing this to people
that was kind of her stop in the tracks like
what are you doing so yeah i think we you know
we sometimes butt heads a little bit on my view
of kind of health care and alternative health
care perhaps and uh what the mainstream says
about different medical procedures, and she is
definitely more mainstream than I am. So we bump
heads a little bit sometimes. Well, what she's
doing is very similar to what I did, which is
when it's too late. The person's come in, they're
completely occluded, and she and her team are
opening the vessel up and saving that life. When
you call 911, my crew would arrive. Whatever
was needed, whether it was nitro and aspirin
or whether it was a full CPR. I mean, we would
try and save that person. That's amazing. But
then the question has to be, well, why are people
getting here? Why are so many people getting
here? I think you need to have both. You need
to have those life -saving people, absolutely.
But where's the conversation? I quote this all
the time, Desmond Tutu. We spend so much time
pulling people out of the river, we forget to
go upstream and find out why they're falling
in in the first place. I think that's exactly,
you know, her and my perspective are the reactive,
but we've also got to have the proactive conversation.
Yeah, I've heard that quote before, maybe not
exactly, but in related to health care. And that's,
you know, physicians as well. Like you graduate,
you're told a certain number of things while
you're at medical school, and then you get patients
thrown at you and you've got no time to really
consider what else is going on. I'll give my
mom credit. She's incredibly healthy. She exercises.
She's been an advocate for that. My parents both
taught aerobics. Maybe to date myself in kind
of the 80s, they were both aerobics teachers
and very active at the YMCA near where I lived.
And my mom has always been anti -smoking. Like
she, you know, she realizes the dangers of smoking.
And yeah, it's gotten into some heated arguments
with family members over that at certain times
as well. So yeah, to her credit, she definitely
sees that there are some. the upstream causes
to the downstream stuff she sees in the cardiac
unit. Absolutely. Well, you took us in kind of
the hotel journey. How did that then lead you
to also be on a cruise ship? Yeah, so I had that
girlfriend I mentioned. She worked on cruise
ships. I had another dude that I grew up with.
He worked on cruise ships and both of them came
to me at various times and said, Trevor, you
would really be good at this. You should look
into doing this one day. So that was. So I left
the hotel business, I started selling software
in 2001, and that was a wild ride, but and lasted
about. a decade or just just short of that and
then i was just at a point where i was miserable
in whatever job i did have i had nothing else
going on i had no no partner and i said it's
time for me to look into cruise ships so i reached
out to that buddy mikey i said i think it's time
he pulled some strings and he got me a job and
he got me a job as the lowest rung on the entertainment
staff ladder, which is crew staff, which is basically
playing Pictionary and line dancing for a living.
So I was probably 32 years old, 32 or 33 at the
time. And I took that job, but I said, I will
become a cruise director within a year. And everybody
said, that's impossible. And I managed to become
a cruise director within eight months. So I kind
of rounded out the last five years on ships being
cruise director, which is actually an awesome
gig. Maybe not amazing for the soul, but it's
a lot of fun for sure. I just went on Royal Caribbean.
It's funny, for some reason, their cruise director
is usually British as well. Yeah, they are really
are the kind of backbone of the ship. And if
you ever saw that one, what was it called? Poop
Cruise, that documentary. I haven't played on
that yet. I should check it out. That cruise
director was suddenly called to earn all of their
salary at that point. Let's just say that. Cool.
I'll definitely check that out. All right. Well
then, so then where did that lead you to? So
I think we need to step back a little bit. After,
I find it interesting that 9 -11 impacted so
many of the people that I work with now, because
9 -11 really impacted me and really changed the
direction of my life. Because after 9 -11, before
9 -11, I was addicted to the media. I would read,
it was kind of pre -internet media in any large
scale, but I'd read three newspapers a day. righteously
pissed off at the state of the world, but I wouldn't
do anything about it. And the morning of 9 -11,
I woke up, I turned on the news network like
I always did, and I saw what happened. And a
couple of months after that, I stopped in my
tracks realizing... holy smokes the media really
is making me crazy so i went on a media fast
at that point and which lasted about two or three
years and i i didn't read any newspaper i didn't
turn on any news network and at the same time
i said well i realized the media had turned me
into a passive yet obsessive observer of all
that was wrong in the world so instead i said
what can i do I'll set this stuff aside and what
can I do to make the world a better place? So
I turned my attention to Vancouver's downtown
east side, which is known as the poorest postal
code in Canada because it is, but it's, you know,
maybe six to 10 square blocks of just abject
poverty, very concentrated in this one neighborhood.
And it's a neighborhood that ever since I moved
to Vancouver and drove through the first time
I was incredibly fascinated with. And I just
started looking at how I might help out in that
neighborhood. And I started poking around, volunteered
for a little bit with an organization and really
just took it upon myself, recognizing that I
had no skills on paper that should lead me to
believe in any way, shape or form I'd be able
to help this neighborhood. But I also realized
that maybe that was an asset. Maybe I'd be able
to have fresh eyes around this issue, which sort
of came to be true. But that essentially turned
into about a 10 -year networking and research
project. And then in 2009, so I worked on cruise
ships. So 2001, this started. 2005, I made a
bit of money selling stock options in a software
company at a good time. i spent four months in
costa rica surfing once uh there was something
something profound happened while i was surfing
in costa rica though i was laying in a hammock
i think i'd probably just smoked a little bit
of a joint i had just been reading a book i set
down the book and i really got overwhelmed with
this feeling of complete perfect peace and oneness
and my goal up until that point is i want to
be able to afford to do nothing if i want to
do it so i had finally accomplished that goal
i was in costa rica doing nothing came into this
state of oneness on on this hammock finally everything
i'd wanted and then this idea crept in and said
you know You're not going to really be able to
enjoy this until you help more people get here.
And I'm like, I immediately knew that I was going
to turn my attention back towards the downtown
east side. So I moved back to Vancouver shortly
after that. In 2005, I took about six months.
I moved into that neighborhood for a couple of
those months. And I really did intense research.
But it was actually then that I ran out of money.
and said, I need to find a job. So that's when
I started to work on cruise ships. So then after
worked on cruise ships for a number of years,
met the woman that I eventually married, now
my ex -wife, Becky. She's wonderful. We're still
very good friends. We threw a happy divorce party
when it happened. We moved back to Vancouver
in 2009. And in 2009, I put my boots to the ground
in the downtown east side again. Had a conversation
with a woman down there who ran a nonprofit called
the Vancouver Area Network of Drug Users. And
I was just speaking to her about things that
I might do to help and that I was keen to help.
And did she have any ideas? And she really didn't.
But we had a lovely conversation that went on
for like three hours. She's a real... force of
nature down there, Ann Livingston is her name.
But the whole time I was speaking to her, there
was a binder on the wall behind her that said
Ibogaine on it. And I said, just near the end
of that conversation, what about Ibogaine? And
she says, actually, I have people calling me
for that all the time. And I said, let me follow
that thread. And everything good in my life now
has come out of that decision. Well, let's go
back for a second. Is it Vancouver that Dr. Gabor
Maté is from? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he wrote a
book called In the Realm of the Hungry Ghosts,
which was all about his 12 years working in this
neighborhood, the downtown Eastside. And it was
great, actually. Once we set up, you know, we
can get to the details of this, but I ended up
setting up a business providing Ibogaine to people
in Vancouver. was introduced to Gabor very quickly
after that. He said, I'll do whatever I can to
help you guys out. Let me know what you need.
So he helped find us a physician that worked
with us for the five years we were operating
there. And yeah, him and I have just become really
good buddies. We've actually done Ibogaine together.
We took a week and did it together with a buddy
of mine. So we have the same birthday as well.
But yeah, we just get along like a house on fire
when we are in touch. Yeah, he's an amazing guy.
And he, along with Johan Hari, I'll credit Johan's
book, Chasing the Scream, is really what opened
my eyes to, you know, the epic failure of the
prohibition of drugs overall. And some of the
healing modalities are out there. So going back
to when you kind of first found yourself in Vancouver,
what were you seeing? Because we are sold this
bill of goods that, you know, if you're just
tough on crime and you're tough on addicts and...
You don't waste Narcan on them and all this kind
of two -dimensional bullshit that this is a success.
But you ask anyone, it's amazing, even the law
enforcement community now when they come on,
they have a very different picture of the success
of this. So in this environment where supposedly
we can arrest our way out of addiction, what
were you seeing with your own eyes in the city
of Vancouver? Yeah, for one, I know... like from
speaking to ann livingston in particular she
really talks about how the legal system is just
bent against any good happening like they will
people will get arrested miss a court date because
they don't keep calendars then they'll have another
warrant out for their arrest and it's just this
constant rotation of their life being dragged
down and down and down further through the legal
system, which is really sad. And that's not necessarily
always the approach in Vancouver as well. Vancouver
is very harm reduction focused. And I think there's
a fine line to walk there, like Vancouver Area
Network of Drug Users. What they would do when
I first encountered them, they're probably still
doing the same, is they would pay people a stipend
of even like two or three dollars to come in
to sit and listen to a meeting where maybe somebody's
presenting that, you know, how to use your needle
cleanly so that you don't get infection or how
to use your crack pipe properly so that you don't.
get sick from that. It's also been a force for
helping people organize. Bureaucrats make decisions
that impact lives dramatically. They switched
the whole population from methadone to methadose,
thinking they're kind of the same thing, but
there were radical withdrawals. The whole neighborhood
went crazy for a few weeks during that switchover.
So I am all for harm reduction, and I am all
for really doing what we can to get people treatment
that works as well. Because there's, yeah, you
know, something's not working. As much compassion
as I've seen cities of Vancouver have for the
people that use drugs there, it's still a disaster
zone. It's still like Armageddon when you go
down there. I sat with João Goulal, who's the
man who spearheaded decriminalization in Portugal
when I went to Lisbon a few years ago. And it
was amazing to hear what made them change. And
it was simply they, like most of the world, had
been kind of forced into the prohibition model
after Anslinger's war on drugs from the 30s.
And they had the humility as a nation to say
this isn't working. And this was back, I think
it was like 2000 or late 90s. And so they got
together truly democratically and actually asked
the people and their vote actually counted and
put it to a vote. Well, what if we do a different
model? What if we look at the addict as a patient
and put it in the hands of the medical community?
We're not going to legalize it. So it's not going
to be like you can go into the grocery store
and buy crystal meth and all these other things.
If you are caught with a true users amount, you
are not even detained. You will be taken in and
given basically an education on all the resources
that are available to you. And within less than
10 years, about eight years, they went from the
worst crisis in, I think it was either Europe
or the world, let's say it's Europe, to the lowest.
Because what they did is they... They put the
money into the resources. I think this is what
a lot of the countries that try this don't do.
They take the money, they put it into creation
of addiction counseling, mental health counseling,
housing, job creation, you know, all these things
that we know help put a human being back on their
feet. There are still addicts in Portugal that
they just weren't able to save. There's always
got to be, you know, talked about. You can't
get every single person and you don't point at
the few that didn't work for and say it doesn't
work. But they had huge success. And I actually
had Zhao on a few months ago again, kind of revisiting
it. Because it was doing so well, there were
some cuts made. It started getting worse again.
And then now they're putting the money back in.
They're like, okay, we have to keep funding this.
But this is what I think the world needs to hear
is there are countries around the world that
have found that if you invest in these people
and you take away the stigma of having the audacity
to be an addict. And you're not fearing arrest.
So you get this, you know, like you said, revolving
door of criminality and criminal records. Most
people want to get healed. Most people want to
get back on their feet. But this prohibition
model, whether it's a Portuguese soldier coming
back from Africa a few decades ago, whether it's
a Navy SEAL or a firefighter here today. It's
the same thing. If you stigmatize addiction,
you send them into the hands of the underworld,
which again, as we alluded to at the beginning
of this conversation, then empowers cartels and
other groups and they get stronger. Yeah. Yeah.
I think Portugal seems to be doing it way better
than anybody else. That's for sure. And I think
there's like, I think the end goal needs to be.
helping to get people rehabilitated and back
into society as a functional citizen. And I think
that is what's missing a lot, especially here
on the West Coast. Like there's this almost political
ideology that says, no, the system's broken.
You need to fix the system first. It's not even
fair to ask these people. to get better. Michael
Schellenberger's book, San Francisco, really
kind of hits on that. And yeah, so I think the
end goal is the betterment of the individual.
I think that's the only sane end goal. And I
think the repercussions of that is society gets
better. But you work on the individual, you focus
on the individual. I have seen what modern Western
medicine would call miracles with this medicine
that we work with. So it's, you know, it's doable
and a system can be built up around doing it
and it should be. And I think taking something
like what Portugal has done and injecting maybe
some large scale use of a plant medicine like
ibogaine would be profound. Absolutely. And just
to quote Johan Hari again, the opposite of addiction
is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is
connection. So if we're isolating and shaming
the addict, we're making it worse. If you, you
know, encircle them with healing, whether it's
the community itself or some of the tools like
Ibogaine, then what are you doing? You're forging
healing that way too. Yeah. And you have to recognize
that like a couple of things. For one, I have
met more than, more than one person that said
cocaine saved my life you know i would have killed
myself a long time ago if it weren't for the
relief i got from cocaine or insert any drug
in there i know plenty of people like that i
think the other thing you really need to do is
find compassion for people who use all drugs
because of what i just said uh you know these
folks are are self -medicating trauma that society
or their lives, obviously their lives, gave them.
But to look at somebody like an opiate addict
in particular, with other drugs, there might
be some aspect of kind of the classic, well,
why don't you just stop? Just stop. It's obviously
not working for you. Just stop the stuff. That's
maybe somewhat fair to say with certain substances,
but opioids give you... when you stop them the
most painful withdrawals these this incredible
sickness that goes on for weeks months even years
with post -acute withdrawal symptoms so again
thank god for ibogaine we'll get into that but
to to say to somebody that there's just it kind
of just takes away The morality around it, like
there's no moral degeneracy in just trying to
self -medicate this incredible pain that, you
know, you probably didn't know was going to come.
You know, heroin seems to work for people for
the first little while. It's once you've been
on it for weeks at a time and then try and stop.
And there's this incredible sickness that comes
with it. And you know that that sickness will
disappear if you just take a little bit more
heroin. Yeah, I think it's easy to find compassion
for people like that. The other one is that people
are getting hooked on right now that they have
no idea that they're even hooked on it is Kratom
or Kratom, depending on how you want to pronounce
it. But Kratom is, I call it gas station heroin
because it is a coffee plant. It hits the opioid
receptors. It's available in... Almost every
gas station in the United States right now, it's
available in these lovely little shots that make
you feel really good. And they make you feel
really good because it's hitting those opioid
receptors. But just like anything that hits the
opioid receptors, you take it long enough and
your own body shuts down its own endogenous opiate
making system. And then you need that from the
outside. And then all of a sudden you're dependent.
But because this stuff's so readily available.
People don't even recognize that they're dependent
because they haven't had to try and stop before.
It tastes great. It doesn't really taste great.
It tastes like crap, but it makes me feel great.
And I'll just keep taking it. We just treated
a guy a couple of weeks ago who I think they
just outlawed the particular alkaloid out of
this, which was available in gas stations as
well, 7 -OH. But this guy was taking the 7 -OH
stuff, had no idea. He heard somebody say something
about tapering off of it. He's like, taper off
of it? Why do I have to taper off it? He thought
he could just stop. He was in a hospital for
10 days with debilitating withdrawals because
of the stuff that he was taking. And yeah, nobody's
kind of warning people that that stuff's highly
addictive. Kind of the opposite. I was just at
a psychedelic conference in June in Denver. And
our booth was near a stage and I heard this woman
from the, I don't know, Kratom industry saying
that, yes, it's addictive, but so is coffee.
If you don't drink coffee regularly, or if you
do drink coffee regularly and you stop it for
a couple of days, you're going to have withdrawals.
I'm like, no, it is not the same thing, lady.
Almost half of the people we treat at Ambio in
our detox program now. is kratom because really
i just stopped they can't it's crazy so people
get their backs up though man when i talk about
this i've tried to dip into a few online conversations
about this and people defend this stuff like
crazy i'm like i've had it a few times myself
it's kind of fun i don't drink alcohol anymore
so to be able to relax with something like that
is kind of neat i also know that if you take
it frequently you're going to become dependent
on it and that's just How it is. It's an opioid.
I had a guy, I'm forgetting his last name, Chris,
who was a member of a powerlifting family. I'm
blanking on his name. Yes, Chris Bell. Thank
you. Thank you. So Chris was on. And at that
time, he was talking about how successful Kratom
was. And I think he had the same journey because
I think we spoke later. But I had another guest
on the show that Kratom almost killed him. And
he was in rehab for weeks trying to get off the
stuff. So this is what's interesting about it.
I've kind of heard both sides. Chris was quite
early on in the whole Creighton conversation.
I would imagine if you talk to him, he's got
a very different story now too. I've met Chris.
Yeah, Chris has spent some time down here. He
had a camera following him. Hopefully that movie
gets made in the end. I think there were funding
issues or something. yeah he made a movie called
leaf of faith which was on netflix which was
all about kratom and how wonderful it is and
it is wonderful if you're looking within the
context of pain relief temporary pain relief
perhaps but um he yeah the tune changed over
the years for sure as he realized wow this is
uh this is a bit more of a beast than he originally
thought it only mentioned the potential of it
being addictive Once in that movie, Leaf of Faith,
where, yeah, it's hard to come off of. Absolutely.
All right. Well, you mentioned about seeing a
binder. Ibogaine is written on. You're about
to pull that thread. So kind of walk us through
the journey you found about that specific plant
medicine. Yeah. So I guess, first of all, I had
exposure to psychedelics at a fairly young age.
In the mid -90s, there was a... a famous LSD
chemist named Nicholas Sands, who was escaping
the cops in the States and moved to British Columbia
to Coquitlam. And he and a guy that I'm now friends
with, Peter Vanderheiden, produced millions of
hits of LSD, and it just flooded the market.
So if you look at a graph, there was a peak of
LSD use. in the late 60s early 70s then there
was a peak in the mid 90s when i was in high
school so i had exposure to them um you know
i kind of grew up on the the just say no to drugs
propaganda i i thought that was effective propaganda
at the time i would have told you that i would
have never tried drugs as a kid But LSD was different.
I knew the Beatles used LSD. There was some kind
of an interest. The very first opportunity to
have that, I took it. And we used it a little
bit as kids, as young men. And I didn't know
about the therapeutic potential of it. But I
remember saying to my buddies that this is what
adults have forgotten that has made the world
so screwed up. So it's kind of therapeutic nature
bled through into what it was doing for us. And
then I moved to Vancouver in 2001, as I said,
and there was a shop that I discovered called
the Urban Shaman. And the Urban Shaman sold a
whole bunch of legal entheogenic plants like
salvia was legal at the time. The first time
I went in there, that's what I bought, salvia
divinorum. And that place had a bit of a community
around it. that i and i hung out there a lot
and that was the first time i heard about iboga
ibogaine comes from iboga and i heard it was
uh a long trip 24 hours long and it cost 500
bucks a dose so i was broke at the time and definitely
not enough interested in a 24 hour long psychedelic
journey so i ironically now said i'm definitely
never trying that one But I think around the
same time, I heard that there was a potential
for it helping with opioid use disorder. But
I never really put two and two together that
it might be helpful for this downtown Eastside
neighborhood until that meeting in 2009. This
binder on the wall behind her said Ibogaine.
She said, people are calling me for that all
the time because there was an Ibogaine treatment
center on Vancouver Island, which had shut down.
But the website was still up and the website
had Ann's name on it saying we're closed. But
if you're looking for more information, maybe
Ann could call you. So it was basically a pipeline.
And then from then on, anytime somebody called
her, she would forward them to me. I did give
it to a couple of people out of the gate. Thankfully,
nobody got hurt. I quickly realized I had no
idea what I was doing. So when people called,
I would basically say. you should go to mexico
if you're going to do it on your own here's what
little i know in 2012 i got a call from anne
she said there's an ibogaine providers conference
in town did you know i said no she said i put
your name on the list as a provider you should
go down so i went down and spent the next four
days with uh you know people i now know are kind
of the ogs of ibogaine providing The guy running
that conference was named Jonathan Dickinson,
a fellow Canadian. I met a guy named Gareth at
the conference. Gareth became my first business
partner. Gareth had been to Mexico, had apprenticed
with people, knew what he was doing with medicine,
really wanted to provide it in Canada. And it
was legal to provide it in Canada at the time.
It was listed as a natural health product, which
meant... There were some gray areas we were skirting
on the importation of it, but ultimately it was
legal to work with in Canada. So we came together,
we set up my first business, Liberty Root Therapy
Limited, in 2012, shortly after that conference.
Basically, this guy said, I really want to work
with it. I said, well, my phone's still ringing.
The next time the phone rings, let's see what
we can do to help them out. The next time the
phone rang, it was... a father calling on behalf
of his two sons, 28 -year -old son, 30 -year
-old son, and the 28 -year -old's girlfriend,
all heroin users. And we treated them over the
course of a couple of weekends. It went really
well. We said there's obviously a need for this
in Vancouver. So my wife at the time was still
working on cruise ships. She was leaving for
six months at a time. I said, let's get out of
Vancouver, out of the downtown core. And we moved
to White Rock about an hour south of there and
found a really nice townhome to work out of,
a new condo townhome, three bedroom. We used
the master bedroom as the treatment room. We
each took a bedroom and we just started treating
people. We treated one person at a time, seven
days at a time to start, mostly for opioid use
disorder. We had Gabor Mate introduced us to
the physician we worked with, Caroline Ferris,
for a number of years. She would prescribe anything
that we needed. So with Ibogaine, if somebody's
using opiates, you don't want to just rush into
Ibogaine. So you need something to stabilize
them on. So they might come in using heroin.
Then we give them morphine for a few days, stabilize
them on the morphine that the doctor prescribed,
and then we go in with Ibogaine. And yeah, we
did about 75 people in two years through that
first house and then graduated to a larger house
where we could take up to three people at a time.
We also realized we learned a lot along the way,
obviously. We learned that seven days is too
short. We would bring people in for 10 -day programs.
We were nowhere near as medicalized as we are
now, but I would bring in a nurse. A nurse friend
of mine would come in for the actual Ibogaine
treatment itself. He would analyze EKGs and things
like that. Yeah, so then we did three people
at a time for another couple of years. It brought
us up to, we treated about 200 people in the
five years that we were legally operating in
Canada. And then in 2017, Health Canada changed
the regulatory status of Ibogaine. They realized
it was misclassified. A natural health product
is something that is like vitamin C or some kind
of a supplement, available over the counter,
not dangerous. Whereas Ibogaine is potentially
dangerous, they realized the misclassification.
Kudos to them. They could have just outlawed
it. They didn't. Instead, they put it on the
prescription drug list. So it's on the prescription
drug list, but because it hasn't gone through
clinical trials, it's still not available as
a prescription. So it's in this no -go zone in
Canada. But at least because it's not illegal,
we can research it without too much fanfare,
like we're working with Dalhousie University.
in canada right now doing some research on ibogaine
for ms so you know they didn't have to jump through
the red tape of working with a a medicine that's
outlawed unlike the states currently now if i've
got my facts correct i might not have it the
iboga plant is in africa originally yeah so it
is a plant that has been used ceremonially for
centuries in countries like gabon and Cameroon
in West Africa. The plant is called Tabernanthia
boga. And if you were to use it in the jungle,
it's the second layer of root bark on this plant.
And they peel it off and you have to eat copious
amounts of it. And they've been using it for
initiation, for healing, for studying life. The
tradition that grew out of the use of this medicine
is called the Bwidi tradition. and they would
tell you that the weedy means study of life so
that's what they use it for there and then you
can extract there's a dozen or so alkaloids in
that plant and you can extract the individual
alkaloids ibogaine is one of those alkaloids
and in the early 1960s a gentleman by the name
of howard lotsoff he was a 19 year old in new
york city dependent on heroin But he was meeting
with a chemist buddy of his, and this chemist
buddy pulled this stuff out of his freezer. We
have no idea where he got it, but he said he
might find this interesting. This stuff's called
ibogaine. He should give it a go. He knew Howard
was interested in different substances. So Howard
one day tried ibogaine, and he went on this intense
journey. It is long. Like I say, it's about 24
to 36 hours. He had no idea what he was getting
into. He came out the other end. He said, wow,
I'm never doing that again. But he said he stepped
outside and he felt this incredible peace that
he had never felt before. He's trying to put
his finger on how do I feel? And it's like, I'm
at peace. That's when he realized, wait a second.
I haven't wanted heroin the whole time I've been
on this, nor do I want it now. So that's when
its anti -addictive properties were discovered.
And thankfully, Howard over the years became
a big champion for what he had discovered and
knocked on a lot of doors, got some people to
pay attention. And then in the kind of early,
late 80s, maybe early 90s, some Ibogaine clinics
started popping up around the world in places
where it was legal to do that. And there was
definitely some underground work happening in
the States as well. you know, the sweeping psychedelics
act happened, anything that was deemed psychedelic
was made illegal. I think it's interesting to
note that before that, before the late 60s, early
70s, psychedelics were always looked upon as
pro -social, whether it's indigenous communities
using them to heal individuals or the community.
Even Western culture had the Mysteries of Eleusis
out of Greek culture. It was a 2 ,000 -year -old
tradition. It was considered the most important
aspect of Greek culture. But it was kind of like
Fight Club. You couldn't write about it. You
couldn't talk about it. But every citizen had
to go through it. And we now know that the kykeon,
the potion that was drank at the Mysteries of
Eleusis, contained an LSD -type substance in
it. So my theory is that the Greeks who created
a lot of the structures that we know and love,
whether it's our way of governing, our seeds
of our democracy, the way we educate, I don't
think they ever intended those structures to
be separated from the psychedelic experience.
Psychedelic means mind or soul manifesting. So
the word has a lot of baggage, but I think it's
actually the correct. term to use because at
least what's happening with these substances
are a different level of mind is being presented
but um yeah in 1972 psychedelics were made illegal
in the states so it's not available legally in
the united states but there there was an interesting
thing that happened an interesting loophole kind
of that we're operating from is the un also has
treaties making most drugs illegal across the
world thankfully ibogaine never got put on that
list so each country kind of gets to decide where
ibogaine stands in mexico where we're operating
right now it's just unregulated it's not on any
list it's not completely legal it's not completely
illegal it's just not on any list so We operate
down here as a licensed mental health and addiction
facility. And Ibogaine just happens to be a certain
thing that we use in the process. So how did
you find yourself moving to Mexico and opening
the facility? Yeah, so in 2017, Health Canada
changed the regulatory status of Ibogaine. It
was good timing for me. I feel like the universe
really had my back. In April of 2017, I decided
I needed a break anyway, so I shut down the operation.
I wasn't paying $5 ,000 per month rent come May
once the memo came out from Health Canada. I
also found it interesting that Health Canada,
you know, I had been in touch with them. So I
don't know if any other providers had, but they
changed the regulatory status, but then they
didn't reach out to tell us it was changed. I
happened to have a friend who caught the news
release. It wasn't even a news release. It was
just a post on a website. Anyway, after that
happened, I continued to be active in the psychedelic
community in Vancouver, of which there is a rich
one. I was the chair of the board of directors
for MAPS Canada. So I was invited to be on the
board and a couple months later to be chair of
the board for MAPS Canada. MAPS is the Multidisciplinary
Association for Psychedelic Studies started by
Rick Doblin. in the States in the early 1980s.
And he's done a lot to really promote psychedelics
as therapeutics. And Rick sat on the board for
Maps Canada as well, which was just a little
tiny branch of Maps. And during that time, I
also co -founded the Canadian Psychedelic Association,
which is still a prominent force in Canada. But
through... I got a call one day from Rick Doblin.
And when Rick calls, you answer. So I picked
up the phone and he said, I have this lovely
couple in my living room, Amber and Marcus Capone.
Marcus is a former Navy SEAL. They've started
a nonprofit sending special forces veterans for
Ibogaine treatment. You guys should know each
other. So I took that call, had a great chat
with them. there. And then from that point forward,
Amber was very diligent in calling me every month
to two months to see if there might be a way
for us to work together. I thought, and the conversation
started with just looking at different ways that
we might be able to do something in Canada. They
would have preferred to have sent their vets
to Canada rather than Mexico. But the regulatory
status had just been changed. It basically would
boil down to needing to do a clinical trial,
which would have been super expensive. So I just
thought, you know, there's no way I'm going to
work with these folks in Canada. But then I had
a phone call with them in, would have been December
of 2020. And there was just something Amber said
on this call where I realized, oh, it's not Canada
they want. I think they're just looking to work
with me. So I hung up the phone. I spoke to my
lady, Brianna. I'm like, I think that I'm going
to call her back. So I called Amber back. I'm
like, is it just me you're looking to work with?
It doesn't matter where? She's like, yes. I'm
like, okay, cool. Let me see if I can find a
place to work. So we had already, Brianna and
I had already planned on going to Costa Rica
in 2021. We wanted to escape the COVID mayhem.
We spent some time while we were in Costa Rica.
I was also at the time the chief psychedelic
officer for a publicly traded company called
Neon Mind. So that kind of was floating the boat
at that point. But I was in Costa Rica looking
at how to set up there. I realized there were
a lot of barriers to me setting up there. I didn't
have a network. I didn't speak the language.
But while I was there. I was speaking to Jonathan
Dickinson, who I mentioned ran that first Ibogaine
conference. And he asked me to be on the board
of directors of another nonprofit he was starting.
And we were talking about that. And I just happened
to mention this veterans group that was keen
to work with me. And he called me back a week
later with a guy named Jose Inzunza in the car
with them, with him. They were both in Tijuana.
Jonathan had been in Tijuana for a number of
years. Jose is a paramedic. He had a clinic providing
ibogaine in Tijuana to people mostly for opioid
use disorder. And they called me and said, hey,
man, why don't you move to Tijuana? We've got
all the medical equipment required. We've got
all the medical staff that understands the medicine.
We can find a house dedicated to veterans. And
I checked with Brianna. I said, Tijuana? She
said, whatever it takes for the medicine. we
went back to canada for a few months got things
settled there and then moved down here in july
of 2021 which again was just a nightmare the
insanity of covid um i just wanted to drive my
truck down and bring all my stuff so i'm not
doing that probably in june and we got turned
around and said no essential services only so
the next time i hit the border it was uh with
a letter from Navy SEALs saying essential service.
At least this time they pulled us in for an hour
before turning us around. So you couldn't cross
the land border unless you were an essential
service. But we drove back to Vancouver, packed
our stuff a different way, and flew in the next
day. So flew to San Diego. insanity of that you
couldn't drive when you could fly so flew into
san diego walked across the border to tijuana
jonathan picked us up that was a saturday we
got to tj sunday i bought a car at this used
car market for a couple of grand monday we welcomed
our first group of veterans from vets incorporated
into the uh detox house that jose had and we
treated our first two groups through that house
and in that time we found the house which we
still have which you'll see if you watch a movie
coming on netflix november 3rd called in waves
and war that'll be the the house that we picked
up then so yeah it's been a while well i've had
so many people on the show that have gone through
vets and i never thought eight years ago that
I'd know so many Navy SEALs, but I do now. Welcome
to my world. Exactly. It's crazy. But this is
what's brought us together. The parallels in
uniform, whether it's the service and the PTSD
and all these other things, or whether it's the
addiction or whether it's the healing modalities
and breath work and all these other areas. But
when it comes to Ibogaine specifically, A huge
takeaway is obviously that addiction piece. And
what I hear not only is opioids, but also alcoholism
as well, which is rife in my profession and other
first responder professions. So talk to me about
that. You kind of were initially going in with
a strong experience of opioids. What were you
seeing as far as other addictions and health
issues that you started seeing resolved through
this practice? Yeah. Yeah. It's just a profound
negative pattern interrupter. Whatever you've
got going on, if you go into Ibogaine with the
intent to interrupt that negative pattern, Ibogaine
seems to be able to give you the leg up on doing
that. Alcohol, absolutely. I stopped drinking
alcohol because of an Ibogaine journey. I had
a journey probably eight or nine years ago now.
All this stuff came up around my drinking. I
had no intent or desire to stop drinking. I drank
a lot, but so did everybody else I know. It was
the culture, especially in a place like cruise
ships or the military or the fire department.
What do you do? You go out for a drink after
your shift. The world at large never told me
I had a drinking problem, but something within
me knew that it wasn't right. And, you know,
I have spiritual beliefs as well. And I felt
as though the way I was drinking wasn't aligned
with my spiritual beliefs. And this one Ibogaine
journey, all this stuff came up around my drinking.
My grandfather, who's deceased, died when I was
in grade four, but he's a World War II vet. And
he came to me in the journey and said, Trevor,
you need to stop drinking for my lineage, which
was pretty powerful. Then it was a guided journey.
And the guy I was working with that was guiding
me, he had me fly into my front yard. He said,
is there a tree there? There was. And it was
a cherry tree. And it was the time of year that
it was flowering. So it was this big. pink cherry
tree. And he said, give that tree a hug. So I
gave the tree a hug. And then he told me to ask
the tree a question about, oh no, the first question
was to ask the tree what the purpose of life
is. I asked the tree and the tree said to flower,
which was just a perfect answer from a flowery
tree. And then the Next question was around negative
tendencies and how to get rid of them in your
life. And I asked the question and the tree said,
stop watering your weeds. And again, that spoke
to me about alcohol. I wasn't necessarily hung
over after the bottle of wine, but I was definitely
watering my depression, watering my procrastination.
And I spoke to Mark the next morning, the guy
that gave me the medicine. I said, all this stuff
came up around my drinking. He had quit drinking.
That's why he came to Iboga in the first place
years ago. And he said, you know, there's an
argument to be made because of the nature of
the work that we've chosen that we need to hold
ourselves to a certain standard. So I agreed
with that. I said, okay, maybe I'll try and stop
drinking. So went home, went to bed. Actually,
on the way home, I had an urge to go and drink.
Just out of habit, I had a bar I went to. There
were nice girls working behind the bar. Felt
like doing that. And thankfully, I called Mark.
He said, well, you don't have to stop forever,
but maybe at least while this medicine's in your
system, give it a break. I agreed with him. I
went home. I went to bed. I woke up the next
morning. All desire to drink was completely gone.
That's been amazing not having that in my life.
And we see it again and again. So many people
come for alcohol. The thing with alcohol and
Ibogaine is you need to be able to stop for at
least a week prior to arrival because alcohol
detox can be extremely dangerous. So you can't
be in any kind of detox type situation. So if
you're here to stop drinking, you need to be
able to safely stop for at least 10 days, seven
to 10 days prior to arrival. you know i think
you've spoken to angela scuden from the 343 fund
and uh it's a non -profit that sends first responders
down here for this treatment and just as you
know 45 minutes before we hopped on this i said
remind me of some uh some good firefighters stories
guys that have been through and every single
one she brought up is guys who have been able
to stop drinking some guy who had been to rehab
seven times another guy who had been to you know
the this brain center for excellence nothing
was working nothing worked again and again and
again and one dose of ibogaine plus some integration
coaching and you know really wanting to change
and uh yeah you're really able to to make it
happen i always say that ibogaine gives you the
superpower of saying no to the first drink It
makes it really easy to say no to that first
drink. And you can say no to that first drink
into perpetuity. But if you say yes to that first
drink, there's probably going to be a second.
Maybe you don't wait a couple of months before
it comes, but you've kind of opened up that gateway
and then the third comes super quick after the
second for sure. I had Dan Cirillo on the show
and sadly he passed away a little while ago,
but Navy SEAL, you know. Very, very powerful.
Again, like so many people in uniform, it's a
lot of the childhood trauma that's powerful too.
That's really kind of the, you know, the pee
beneath the mattress, if you like. But alcoholism
is definitely his. I can't remember if he had
opioids as well, but he literally went in as
an alcoholic and left not touching a drop. And
I'd hear that story over and over again. But
many times I also heard people that were literally
on their last straw. Like, you know, if this
doesn't work, then. I'm done. I'm going to take
my own life. So whether it was fire, you know,
Navy SEALs, what are some of the success stories
that really struck you? What are some of the,
you know, arguably the most powerful success
stories that you've seen over the last few years?
Yeah, just the mention of suicide. For some reason,
as a young man, as I was trying to figure out
what to do with my life, there was just nothing
that broke my heart. more than the idea of suicide
so i'm like if there's any way i can have an
impact on that please please let me have an impact
and uh to have to have found ibogaine and hear
the stories um one of them is uh a guy mikey
mckim he's been public with his story he's uh
a vets grant recipient you can find his story
on their website i'm sure their youtube channel
but he was driving to the beach, which was three
hours away, to take his own life. Right before
he left for that drive, a friend reached out
to him and said, hey, you should listen to this.
And it was episode 30 of the Sean Ryan show,
the episode that I was on. And he listened to
that. two and a half hour podcast. He got to
the beach. He decided I'm going to try this instead.
He came, he had Ibogaine. It changed everything.
He has now worked with us a number of times.
He's a public spokesperson for, uh, bets. He
has learned, um, I think it's the heart math
solution. So he's done training in this somatic
technique on how to ground yourself. and get
kind of get the wisdom from the body. So just,
you know, a complete 180 from a guy like that.
The other one, this guy was actually here the
exact same week as Mikey, but he, the group left
and he was just really in dire straits. He, he
was a firefighter actually. And he had basically
lost, he was a veteran as well, but You know,
he lost all his friends while serving in the
military. His best friend had died of an opioid
overdose the week before arriving. And he was
desperate, like so many people. Either this works
or I'm going to go eat a bullet. They all left
on the Saturday morning they would have left
on. and uh the housekeeper came downstairs with
i'm sitting there with my medical manager the
housekeeper came downstairs with a few things
and one of them was a bullet and i'm like where
did this come from and she showed me his name
plate the paper name plate i messaged him and
i said hey dude is this what i think it is he
said yeah i won't be needing it anymore and Just
again and again and again, stories like that.
We treated, people always ask me, what's the
youngest you've treated? The youngest I've treated
is a guy who walked in the front door on his
18th birthday. He was the son of a guy that we
had treated and he was depressed, suicidal. came
in for treatment. It went incredible. He went
home. He messaged us all saying that he'd just
burnt his suicide note. He won't be needing it
anymore. So, yeah, it's wild, man. I feel incredibly
blessed to have been put on a pathway that has
such a profound effect on people. And again,
I don't take claim for any of it. I feel as though
as the start of the story kind of implied, I
feel like I'm a pretty good hotel manager, a
pretty good hospitality manager. I can, you know,
I can set up a really nice space for people to
come. And then I feel as though this medicine,
but more than the medicine, it's the person themselves.
they do all the heavy lifting. I'm allergic to
somebody saying, you saved my life. I'm like,
no, man, you saved your own life. You did all
the heavy lifting on that. So I don't need much
credit. I'll take credit as a good hospitality
manager. It is amazing to hear though. Even when
you had your experience and you had your World
War II veteran grandfather come to you, I think
this is something that... really needs to be
discussed now, but also as you're talking about,
whether it's plant medicine and integration or
some of these other tools, that is an amazing
way of stopping the hurting, but also identifying
the generational trauma that exists with so many
people. We had a world war 80 years ago, and
most of our ancestors were fighting in that war.
And you're telling me they just came home and
everything was fine? No, of course not. You know,
the dominoes kept falling. So the combination
of really giving yourself grace and understanding
that what you, you know, what you experienced,
what your parents experienced, this all factors
into part of this equation, but then knowing
that there are these tools to stop that domino
from falling and then heal. So it doesn't then
go to your children and your grandchildren. I
think you put those together and you really have
a healing superpower then. Yeah. Yeah. It's my,
my grandfather. i was always told growing up
that he didn't see much action and then that
was corrected and he saw tons of action um and
he came back from the war didn't know what that
was spent the rest of his life going from legion
to legion royal canadian legion or whatever legion
in whatever country he was visiting and just
would connect with veterans and those were the
only guys he would talk to about it but he self
-medicated with a case of beer a night a two
-four beer and that actually led to me led to
me not i don't know It did various things. My
mother, that seriously impacted my mother. My
grandpa wasn't a horrible drunk. He was relatively
friendly, but him drinking a case of beer a night
really impacted her. So when I grew up, I heard
all the time, don't do that, you'll get addicted.
Don't do that, you'll get addicted. And on one
hand, that really made me conscious. when I did
start experimenting. On the other hand, it made
me super curious, like, what is this forbidden
fruit addiction that I'm not supposed to experience?
So I think that, you know, the lack of severe
trauma in my life, plus my mother really drilling
that into me, like I had, I used copious amounts
of recreational drugs as a young man, like it
was insane at certain stages. And never opioids,
thankfully. They weren't around quite as much,
especially on the more East Coast where I grew
up and at that time. But yeah, but that also
gave me incredible compassion for people who
did. Like when I saw that downtown Eastside for
the first time, my heart went out to those people
suffering because I recognized on some level
that. maybe they probably did have a traumatic
childhood. In fact, years later, I saw a study
that was a longitudinal study of residents of
that neighborhood that showed that 100 % of the
people that had been in this study also had traumatic
brain injury. So what came first, the traumatic
brain injury or the addiction? Most likely it's
a traumatic brain injury. And then again, you're
self -medicating with these substances. And that's
another thing that we started treating people
for addiction. It's where my heart still lies
in a lot of ways. But then in working with these
veterans and working with Amber Marcus and then
Stanford University and seeing that it's not.
It's not just addiction. It's not just PTSD.
It's there's brain damage. There's traumatic
brain damage that's showing up on brain scans
and then brain scans after Ibogaine showing that
that brain damage is largely gone. So pretty
profound. What's interesting with my community
is even though traditionally we don't have the
same head trauma that, you know, obviously tier
one special operations, words, SWAT, et cetera.
But we arguably probably some of the most woefully
sleep deprived of any population. And if you
look at the physiology, sleep deprivation and
head trauma kind of mirror each other as far
as a demyelination of the myelin sheath of the
nerves. So even though and I did combat sports,
I was a stuntman. So I probably did get quite
a lot of head trauma myself. But, you know, even
if you weren't getting hit in the head a lot
in your profession, if you are not sleeping every
third day for 10, 20, 30 years, If you did brain
scans of firefighters, you probably see a similar
type of thing. So this is what's exciting, whether
it's psilocybin or ibogaine, that we're seeing
this kind of neuroplasticity. There's this regrowth
of brain tissue or nerves that when I was in
scientific school years and years ago, we were
told once you lose it, you lose it. Well, that's
not the case. There is hope that we can actually
start regenerating. So the Stanford study, that
was one of the carrots that was really dangled
by Amber Capone in the beginning. When we started
talking, she said, we're trying to get the studies
done with Stanford. We've got the funding. We
just need to put the team together. So I very
much wanted to be a part of that Stanford study.
I mentioned I didn't go to university, but I
have a big chip on my shoulder. I wanted to be
at least as successful as my friends who did.
I've read a lot of books. I'm kind of highly
self -educated in a lot of different ways. But
being published now in four medical journals
really works for the ego on a certain level,
including in nature medicine with Stanford University.
So that was one of the carrots that was dangled.
And that Stanford study was basically 30 U .S.
Special Forces veterans. They came to... or they
went to Stanford prior to coming to my company,
Ambio, and they got brain scans. They got a battery
of other tests. They needed a TBI to get into
the study. And then they went immediately back
to Stanford after leaving. They got brain scans.
They got a battery of other tests. And then there
was a month follow -up as well. So the pre -brain
scans were clearly showing traumatic brain injury.
post -brain scans showing it was largely reversed,
if not entirely reversed in some of those guys.
The first paper that came out on that measured
PTSD, depression, anxiety, and disability scores
all went from almost off the charts down to next
to nothing after Ibogaine. An interesting one
there was the disability score, which is actually
how they measure the TBI. And immediately following
Ibogaine, that disability score didn't change
very much at all. It was the month follow -up
that the disability score dropped dramatically
in the majority of those guys. So Ibogaine stays
in your system, keeps doing something. They took
those brain scans. They ran them through an AI
algorithm that determines the age of the brain.
The brains on average got 1 .37 years younger.
after just one dose of ibogaine. And that's the
average. So some of those brains were looking
five years younger. Former Texas Governor Rick
Perry has been public about this in the New York
Times recently, but he came down to Ambio for
treatment and he knows how to get what he wants.
So he got a brain scan prior to coming in and
then a brain scan six months after. And the first
brain scan showed the brain of a... you know,
an average 72 year old. The post brain scans
showed no signs of aging. His neurologist says
this is like the brain of a 45 year old. So all
that to say that you mentioned the gray matter
and neuroplasticity. We know that psilocybin,
we know a few different things. We know even
a good meditation practice can change the neuroplasticity
on the gray matter. But before this study with
Stanford, We had never seen anything that actually
changed the white matter. And the white matter
is more of the ingrained information superhighways.
And the Stanford study showed that the white
matter increased in volume after Ibogaine as
well, which is, we don't know of any other substance
on Earth that can do that. So pretty freaking
crazy. Well, it's exciting to hear. the former
governor and some of the other voices in Texas
trying to really push this through. And I've
highlighted this many times, the kind of insanity
that our men and women, especially in the military,
will fight, die, lose limbs, have mental health
issues for this country. And then the ones that
come home then have to go overseas to get help
for it. You know, it's crazy. So I hope that
these conversations and some of these voices
now in all different walks of life are really
going to start shifting the way we look at prohibition.
Because no, you know, crystal meth should not
be on the shelf of the local supermarket. There
are nuances in between, but there are so many
healing modalities, MDMA, psilocybin, you know,
Cambo, all these other ones that we hear about
as well, that should be accessible to everyone,
whether they served or not. Yeah. Absolutely.
There's incredible irony that especially when
we're working with police officers down here
and we work with a lot of police officers, but
police officers who have spent their careers,
you know, chasing after people who use substances
like this. But then they can come down to a place
like Ambio, receive this and kind of reset the
system and see what's beautiful again. But yeah,
AMBIO has really become the safe haven for first
responders, for veterans. That's kind of the
niche that we grew out of through our relationship
with Amber and Marcus. So it's sad that they
have to come down here to take this medicine,
and it's a real honor for me to be able to work
with. All these guys down here taking this medicine
and seeing the profound transformations they
experience. Absolutely. Well, for people listening,
then kind of walk us through those 10 ish days
for someone. Let's just say, for example, they
do have opioid alcoholism kind of woven in as
well. What does that look like as far as the
first few days? And then what will the actual
Ibogaine experience like be like for them? Yeah.
So we have. Three different programs. We have
the foundational program, which is actually a
five day program. And that's the program that
a lot of veterans and first responders are coming
through. We have the detox program, which is
for somebody who maybe they can't come off alcohol.
for a week prior to arrival or they're using
opioids or they're using a stimulant like cocaine
or crystal meth they'll come through the detox
program and then we also have a neuro regenerative
program for things like parkinson's and multiple
sclerosis where we give a little bit less medicine
in those programs and we're just seeing dramatic
results through that as well. But the foundational
program, the five -day program, is kind of what
we've become famous for. So how that works is
somebody would apply at our website, ambio .life.
Our intake team would reach out to them. They
might need to come off some other medications.
You need to come off most SSRIs or ADHD meds
for at least five days prior to arrival. So we
encourage people to work with their doctors.
on doing that. Sadly, a lot of doctors are very
good at getting people on these substances. They
have no idea how to get them off. So we can help
them with the taper schedule and the supplementation
schedule to do that if need be. We have a coaching
program as well. So people will receive coaching
prior to arrival, at least a couple sessions
before, at least a couple sessions afterwards.
People need to submit an EKG and some blood work
prior to arrival. Once all that is set, we set
the pickup day. We bring people down in groups.
Depending on what house the people are going
to, we'll do a six -person group, a seven -person
group, where our biggest is an 11 -person group.
And we'll have them arrive at a hotel near the
airport in San Diego. We pick them up around
10 a .m. in the morning, bring them down. It's
only about a 30 -minute drive from the pickup
point to our houses. And then on that first day,
we help everybody unpack. We do a circle to get
to know each other a bit. We have some lunch.
The food's incredible. Again, we're kind of becoming
famous for the food. Then everyone goes to a
traditional Mexican sweat lodge we've been doing
on that first day, which is a great way to kick
off the week. It also aligns with the theme of
the week, which is being comfortable with being
uncomfortable. Everybody comes back. We serve
some dinner, some IVs to rehydrate, get some
rest. The next morning, there's some blood work
in the morning, some medical intake into breakfast,
into breath work. Breath is like this untapped
ally that it's very good to get reacquainted
with prior to doing something like Ibogaine.
So they go into that, followed by another preparation
circle, followed by lunch. Then we'll ask that
they fast after lunch. In the afternoon, they'll
get some one -on -one counseling and a massage.
And then at about 7 p .m., we'll give people
an IV to help them prepare for Ibogaine, physiologically
anyway. It's got some magnesium in it. And then
at about 8 p .m., they'll circle up around a
fire for a bit of a gratitude ceremony, and we'll
administer the first dose of medicine at that
point. We do it in four doses across a few hours.
But by about 10 o 'clock, we'll ask that they're
in the treatment room on their mattress. And
then basically from that point on, they're putting
on a blindfold and going deep into themselves
with the Ibogaine. Ibogaine has been referred
to as oneric, which means as related to dreams.
So it can be for people kind of like a lucid
dream type situation. You might see past events
and be able to put them in a new light. It might
just be sheer chaos, different visions coming
at you that make zero sense. And some people
don't get any visions at all. You don't need
to have visions for Ibogaine to work for you
is the neat thing. But basically, they're on
that mattress for about 12 hours. And then the
next day is notoriously known as the gray day.
Everybody feels pretty rough the day after Ibogaine.
So it's just a lot of recovery. You're not as
tired as you've ever been, but you can't fall
asleep because the medicine is still in your
system. So again, you're just very well taken
care of. I'll also mention that we're fully medicalized.
Like there's a nurse or a paramedic on duty 24
hours a day while people are here. During the
actual Ibogaine, we have at least a physician
on duty plus four or five paramedics. So completely
medicalized through the entire process. And then
eventually on day three, they'll eventually get
some sleep. It's after you get some sleep that
you really start feeling the benefits of Ibogaine.
And then the next morning, some yoga in the morning,
some light stretching, breakfast. And then we
do a debrief circle and a prep circle for the
other compound that we work with called 5 -MeO
-DMT. And then everybody takes 5 -MeO -DMT in
the afternoon. We're in Mexico. So that fourth
night, we tend to finish with taco night, which
is a big fan favorite. And then everybody's back
to San Diego the day after that. Amazing. Talk
to me about integration. One of my friends, Kagan
Gill, who was a pilot who had survived the fastest
ever ejection. Was it you he got into? No, I
think he went to a place in Cancun, but he's
a good friend of one of the guys that works here.
We have an F -18 backseater that's one of our
hosts down here. So he introduced me to him over
FaceTime once, I think. Yeah, amazing, amazing.
I mean, super powerful story and really illustrates
the failure of the mental health system at that
point. But he, when he came back on, was talking
about the wisdom dojo. So basically that integration
piece after you've had this, because, you know,
as I don't think anyone has ever claimed, this
is a magic button that you just do this and everything
is great. Again, you've still got issues to deal
with in your personal life. Maybe you've got
issues that still aren't addressed as far as
early life, some other poor habits. So talk to
me about that integration piece. You've had this
incredibly powerful experience. Maybe you saw
God in 5MEO DMT and you're kind of rethinking
about everything that you've ever been taught.
What is the next step for these men and women
that go through the program? Yeah. So integration
basically means how do you take this profound
experience and put it into your daily life? And
we have a coaching and integration guide that
we put together. And it's basically, in all of
the years that I've been doing this. It's like,
what's the special sauce? How do we make this
work for everybody? What do people need to do
so that this really works? And I mentioned earlier
that this is a really good negative pattern interrupter.
I think an extreme example of that is heroin
or fentanyl. So imagine somebody has been using
heroin for 10 years prior to arriving at a place
like this. We give them ibogaine. It takes away
the addiction virtually overnight. And then what?
And then you're left with this vacuum. What do
you fill the vacuum with? So Ibogaine is very
good at helping you get rid of the negative patterns.
It's also very good at giving you an opportunity
to implement new positive patterns. So we recommend
and our coaches recommend looking at what those
are going to be. What are you going to do on
a daily basis to help make your life better?
Are you going to pray more? Are you going to
meditate more? Are you going to exercise more?
Are you going to surround yourself with community
like the community in the Wisdom Dojo, which
is a meditation community of a whole bunch of
former veterans? Yeah, it's really where the
rubber meets the road. And to a large part, that
is up to the individual. What are you going to
do to take the most advantage of this? And what
are those actions going to be? We recommend...
something we call the five to thrive, which is
take some time. And we have a recommended five
things as well, but take some time to think about
what are five things you could do every single
day to make sure you're keeping your life on
track, moving in the right direction. Is it learn
something every day? Is it an enrichment activity
like learning the guitar, the language you always
wanted to speak? Is it exercise? Is it meditation?
What is it? But it's basically. You know, it
looks different for everybody and it's vitally
important. And it's kind of, like I say, where
the rubber meets the road. What are you going
to do to make your life better? And what are
you going to commit yourself to, to make sure
that you take complete advantage of this opportunity?
There also seems to be an element of, you know,
these experiences, especially with 5MEO, like
really opening the door to the closet in the
mind that maybe you didn't realize was there.
And for example, a kind of talk therapy counseling
that didn't work prior to this, now you're able
to access this and work through some of that
with the therapist that you're working with as
well. Big time. Or like the 12 steps. Some people
feel as though they're allergic to a 12 -step
program like AA. But after something like Ibogaine,
Those meetings are kind of awesome. And I think
one of the big things, and you alluded to that
with the opening the door in the mind, but, you
know, step one of AA has a component of admitting
there's a higher power and asking it for help.
And I have treated more people than I can count
who said, I was an atheist before I walked in
here. Now I know there's a God. So all of a sudden
that makes the 12 steps work again. Or yeah,
all of a sudden you have a certain tenderness
about you that allows you to lie on your psychologist's
couch and actually get to the nitty gritty of
the stuff that you were skirting before. This
disassociation or disconnection between knowing
a God and a hijacking of, I'll say the one that
I was brought up in Christianity. Have you had
people that thought they were, in this case,
Christian, go through this and then recalibrate
what that true faith is supposed to be about?
What the community and the compassion and the
empathy that's at the root of that religion kind
of click back in and reconnect with it? 100%.
I'll even, perhaps a more extreme example is
a gentleman I treated. Again, he's been public
with his story. His name is Fawad Qalsi. He was
the imam at his mosque. He's a Muslim man. And
he got addicted to oxys. He had never had a drink
in his life, never smoked in his life, went into
his doctor with severe pancreatitis, gave him
OxyContin, had no idea he was addicted to these
things until Christmas hit one year and he went
into extreme withdrawals, which led him to massive
depression. His doctor got... audited, investigated,
almost lost his license for his case in particular
for over -prescribing means, which led him to
being cut off of the supply. He's going to his
next -door neighbor for a street supply of oxys.
Miserable. Used to run a travel agency as well.
Couldn't travel. His buddy said, you got to come
with me. We got to get you out of here. Let's
go to Japan. It's on me. YouTube is auto -playing
videos about Japan. One of the videos says, 10
things you should never bring to Japan. Number
one is any kind of opiate. They're completely
illegal there. So more depression. His wife says,
let's go for a trip anyway. They went to San
Francisco. He's miserable, sitting in his hotel
room, watching a marathon of Law & Order. It's
2 a .m. And the one Law & Order episode that
mentions Ibogaine pops up. And he's like, what?
Is this real? And he starts looking into it.
He books a trip to Mexico. Whoever it was in
Mexico said, you know, you've got a really good
Ibogaine provider in Vancouver. He lived in Vancouver.
So he came to me when I ran Liberty Route. And
he had a vision of himself running towards God.
And he was carrying a briefcase. which was his
gift to God. And right before he got to God,
the briefcase broke open and it was empty. And
he realized that this was speaking to him about
the way he had been approaching his religion,
which was methodical, which was dry, which was
ultimately empty. And Ibogaine turned him into
the most beautiful spiritual man imaginable.
He has brought focus on addiction within the
Muslim community in Vancouver. He has done so
much good post journey with that shift from,
you know, being religious to being spiritual.
And it's sad. I'm actually, I consider myself
Christian. I was raised in the United Church
of Canada. I stepped away from religion. for
years and kind of became atheistic and then kind
of became more spiritual and then turned back
into Christianity and kind of feel as though
I'm more aligned with the essence of what Jesus
was teaching, which is largely also inspired
my path in life. But I'm currently writing a
book about it. The title is Heroic Christianity.
And through the process of this book, The word
religion means to tie together. So it's like
tying together and it's tying yourself to wholeness.
So religion itself should ultimately mean, you
know, binding yourself to the whole, which ironically,
especially in the eyes of a lot of Christians,
the way they might look at this word, that's
exactly what the word yoga means. Yoga means
to yoke to. Like the yoke a beast of burden would
use to yoke themselves to a cart. You're tying
yourself to the wholeness of the universe. The
word yoga and the word religion both mean exactly
the same thing. I had no idea what religion meant
until I stumbled upon that the other day. I think
this is a really powerful kind of perspective
because when I look at what is being... done
in the name of Christianity at the moment, as
I sit here in America, you know, hunting down
immigrants, telling, you know, addicts that Narcan
is wasted on them, shooing homeless away from
your area. Those are not things that Jesus would
do at all. So I wonder how much moral injury
there is amongst these people that claim from
their church, but they know in their subconscious
that they're actually not even aligning to their
own values. Yeah, I wonder. I see it and there's
kind of this revitalization of Christianity,
I think, among young men. A lot of it, I think,
ultimately it's going to lead down a very beautiful
path. But as soon as you use your newfound faith
to make somebody else worse than you, you're
missing. the lesson you're missing the guy's
entire message love your enemies as yourself
love your neighbors as yourself and that to me
is the you know a profound in 2003 i believe
i tried 5meo dmt for the first time and i had
kind of been new on the spiritual path at that
time and i took 5meo dmt and all of a sudden
i could feel every cell of my body being aware
of me being aware of it and then that knowing
exploded into the whole universe all of a sudden
i could feel every atom in the universe and i
was one with it all and i felt this interchange
of awareness behind it all and you know kind
of that was kind of the ego getting blasted away
but as the ego came back it's like what what
does that mean and it came in that it's it's
perfect you can't mess it up the whole universe
is a bed of perfection upon which all of your
ideas of imperfection might spring from but the
perfection comes first and it was just this profound
sense of oneness and unity that you know i knew
on a visceral level for the first time or the
first time i can remember and it was that Knowing
of unity, once you tease that out enough, we
are literally one with each other. So if anyone
is suffering, then all of us is suffering. So
that's what, well, what can I do to help suffering?
Well, this neighborhood called the Downtown Eastside
looks like it could use some help. And I always
use that. I should also say that we were able
to treat some people. pro bono from the downtown
east side. That's not an easy process. You don't
want to just pluck somebody up from that neighborhood,
give them Ibogaine and drop them back. So I went
on a long process within the Vancouver area network
of drug users, vetting a bunch of people. And
in the end, it was one guy who showed up every
week for this meeting. We gave him Ibogaine.
Long story short, it went great for him. It really
changed his life. But I always use that as inspiration.
Like if we can help a neighborhood that seems
to be this far gone, then there's really hope
for everybody. And I'm still just working on
that mission. That's really all I'm doing is
I'm still, there's a lot more work than I knew
needed to be done to be able to provide this
medicine at scale. So that's all we're doing
is as Ambio, our mission is to provide this medicine
at scale to people. So hopefully before I die,
I can provide this medicine to scale at people
from that downtown east side still as well. I
think there's been no greater red flag than the
apathy towards what happens, what's happening
in Gaza, you know. When it's tens of thousands
of children, you cannot look in the mirror and
say, oh, they're a mass. Is there a generational
issue between these two sides? Of course. Does
it go? I mean, if you go far enough back, the
British are partly to blame to this whole, you
know what I mean? But the only thing that we
can do, any of us listening, is to look in the
mirror and go, well, how can I fix me first?
Then how can I benefit my wife, my husband, my
children, and then step outside your front door
and be like, how can I be a positive influence
in my community? And if we all did that and we
actually made healing front and center, I don't
think you would see the tyranny, you know, gain
the power that it does. But if you have a bunch
of people that are unwilling to even do their
own work, then it's easy to turn your head when
something really, really awful happens that going
back to your grandfather, my grandfather. that
fought the very thing that's happening now, that
took up arms and went to another country to protect
innocent people from these kind of things. So
I think that this awakening of healing, this
awakening of reconnecting with faith, not a doctrine,
is what needs to happen because there are so
many glaring signs now. of if we don't start
having this this awakening then really bad things
are going to happen but we can absolutely turn
a corner and it's not just our firefighters and
our navy seals as every single person can go
on their version of a healing journey does everyone
need ibogaine no does everyone need you know
psilocybin or you know ssris no there's a lot
of us that i think just doing some of the, you
know, eating better and exercising, getting out
in nature and meditating, we can take a large
chunk of those people hurting out of the equation.
And then we can really focus these amazing modalities
that we have available to the people that actually
need it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the,
I mentioned the five to thrive in our coaching
and integration guide. One of the five that I
invite people to consider is to develop a passion
project. all right, you've made yourself feel
a lot better. I know one of the things most people
need to feel, to continue to feel that way is
a sense of purpose. So what's something that
you could just start doing to try and make this
world a better place? Because if all of us take
upon just a small project and start small at
the beginning to make the world a better place,
what's it going to be? Again, I recognize that.
I think I'll give credit to this first five MEO
DMT experiences, you know, realizing we're all
one, knowing I want to give back, having no idea
how I'm going to give back. Before the idea of
helping the downtown east side came on the radar,
I just went up and went out and started picking
up garbage. I just took a garbage bag. I picked
up trash. I filled up bags and bags and bags.
And I found that once I got myself in that flow
of giving, I don't even call it selflessly. I
think there's a trick that I think the thing
that makes a human feel better than anything
else is truly helping a person. So I feel as
though the most selfish thing you can do, again,
ironically, becomes altruism, becomes giving
back, becomes helping other people. And I found
that once I was giving back like that, somewhat
selfishly, because it felt good to even just
pick up that garbage, I was in the flow. Then
the next idea came. Then I got inspired. That
turned into me sitting on this podcast with you.
I had no idea how I was going to help as a 23
-year -old kid. felt helpless but was praying
desperately please make use of me and i don't
know how you're going to make use of me in the
long run but my neighborhood could use a bit
of a cleanup you know so i just think that's
what this book heroic christianity is all about
like how do you take your faith and turn it into
action because what the world needs right now
is people actually living from the values that
jesus taught and turning that into healing what's
going on in this uh mad mad world right now absolutely
i mean i don't know if i'm being naive but i
feel like the common takeaway from most of the
holy books that are out there is just simply
don't be a dick So whether you're a Muslim or
Jew or, you know, Jewish, excuse me, or, you
know, Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or insert,
you know, seek all these other ones. Ultimately,
I would argue that the wisdom that survived these
ages is simply that, you know, if they were preaching,
Hey, the best way to carry on is to continue
genocide and create war. I don't think those
books would last very long, but if love and community
compassion and empathy is at the root of it.
That's what we got to refine. That's what we
got to lean back into. All right. For people
listening. So we have Veterans Exploring Treatment
Solutions, Marcus and Amber's nonprofit. If people
are in the military, we have... Vetsolutions
.org is their website. Thank you. And then we
have the 343 Fund, Angela Scudin for first responders.
So talk to me about that one. Yeah, so that's
343fund .org. Angela Skuden is this another force
of nature. Her husband was a firefighter, Casey
Skuden, and they were driving down a road to
celebrate something, one of their birthdays,
and a tree fell on the car and just out of nowhere
killed her husband. And massive healing process
from that. There was a massive healing process
for Angela that started even well before that
as she was trying to cure herself from Lyme disease.
Find some Angela Skuden podcasts and hear her
story. It's really remarkable. But she was inspired
by Marcus and Amber and decided to set up a nonprofit
that would help first responders in the same
way. And she has succeeded. and it's incredible.
So she works with, whether it's police, fire,
paramedic, first responders, she'll help them
get the treatment down here at AMBIO, plus she
set up, as VETS has, just this very robust community
around it. with weekly breathwork sessions, with
weekly ways to tune in, ongoing integration.
And I think she's extended the integration coaching
so that people can show up for a year for integration.
So yeah, Angela is hardcore. They have a couple
of fundraisers coming up in October in Chicago
and Austin. So if people are interested, they
should come and check those out. I can't remember
the episode number, but Angela was on. Two months
ago, for people listening, just Google Behind
the Shield, Angela Skuden, and you'll find her
episode there. Are there any other nonprofits
you want to talk about before we go to some closing
questions? Oh, man. There is, yeah, I'd say nothing
that really has a lot of legs under them. No,
those are the main ones. Those are the main.
Well, no. Heroic Hearts is another one. They've
sent us a few. Heroic Hearts is another. Yeah,
they're awesome, Jesse. They've just started
sending us a few. So kudos to them. And where's
the other one? I'll kick myself afterwards for
not saying. Oh, another one called Songs for
Soldiers. They've been great as well. You should
check out them on YouTube. Songs for Soldiers.
They have a really beautiful. testimony of a
guy that came through that really inspired them
to throw money this way as well. It's been pretty
amazing. Fantastic. All right. Well, I want to
go to some closing questions quickly. Before
we even get to that, actually, what is going
to be the name of your book? I think you said
it once before. And then when are you looking
to release it? So I have a 20 chapter book already
written. And as I continued down this process
I realized it's not as perfect as I want it to
be so I have actually hired a writing coach and
it's he's a great guy also named Jonathan and
he helped my business partner Jonathan get his
book written and I'll plug his book as well because
Jonathan Dickinson has written what is going
to be the definitive book on ibogaine It's been
picked up for publishing. It should be available
for pre -order soon, and then will be available
in the second half of next year. I think the
title is still up in the air, but really looking
forward to that. I've read the first half of
it. It's hard to read something on PDF. I got
to finish it, but it's an incredible book. And
then I've just come up with the subtitle of my
book, so I'm actually reading it off my screen.
Heroic Christianity, walking the sacred path
with bold faith to transcend shadows, awaken
divine glory, and bring heaven to earth. Love
it. No small goals there. When do you think that
will be out? I should be done my process by...
five months, so January or so. And then I think
I'm just going to self -publish it. That's what
I did with mine. Super easy. And no one can tell
you, you got to take that bit out. You just publish
it as it is. All right. Well, the next question
then, are there, aside from those two, are there
any books that you love to recommend? It can
be related to our discussion today or completely
unrelated. Yeah, 100%. I really love Autobiography
of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda. This book
came into my life. It was, I can't remember how
it came into my life, but it was the first book,
first and only book I read in its entirety on
my iPhone. And then I found out shortly thereafter
that it is... the only book Steve Jobs had on
his iPad, and it's the book Steve Jobs had handed
out to everyone who attended his funeral. And
it is basically the autobiography of a young
Indian man who became a great leader. And what
that book did for me is it really spread my mind
as to what's possible with spirituality, just
beyond kind of... the typical Christian tropes.
I feel as though ultimately Yogananda and Jesus
were drinking from the same cup. I think their
teachings are in complete alignment, but I love
that book. I find a book that really, like if
you, if you, I, like I dove into I've read every
self -help book you could get your hands on,
Tony Robbins type stuff, all of it, Think and
Grow Rich, The Science of Getting Rich. Those
are both incredible if you haven't read those.
The Science of Getting Rich, actually, I threw
the baby out with the bathwater on religion,
and it was The Science of Getting Rich, which
said, there is a thinking substance. that permeates
the interspaces of the universe. And a thought
impressed upon this substance brings about the
thing thought about. And the way that hit me
one day, I'm like, is that God? Is that what
they're trying to sell me with God everywhere,
all powerful, all knowing? So that opened me
up to... I started looking at every spiritual
thing I could get my hand on and started looking
for what was similar between them all. And of
course, there's tremendous similarity between
all of them if you have eyes to see. But all
of these books essentially say you need to stop
thinking poorly and stop. start thinking positively
which is easier said than done you know we just
spin all these negative thoughts all the time
and negative emotions and a book that changed
the game for me on that is called the astonishing
power of emotions by esther hicks and it i was
i was back home in kitchener i was at a used
bookstore and There were two books that I was
thinking of getting. I got one. I set the other
one down. As I'm flying home the next day, I'm
like, oh, I should have got that Astonishing
Power of Emotions book. I'm still going to go
to a bookstore and pick it up. So I get home.
I lived right next door to a bookstore in White
Rock. I go to the bookstore. The book isn't there.
I treat somebody that weekend with a therapeutic.
dose of psychedelics the one book he brought
with him was the astonishing power of emotions
so it fell into my lap and it really talks about
it frames your emotions in a very useful way
and kind of lets you know what they are as far
as kind of your internal guidance system and
how to use them properly and I read the first
half of that book while I was giving this gentleman
his therapeutic psychedelic session, and something
clicked in me. All of a sudden, it was very easy
for me to stay positive all the time. I think
I went about six months. without having a negative
emotion i could if it started creeping in i could
instantly reframe it flip it and just stay oriented
in a way that i feel as though if you're positive
if you're at peace then you're going to attract
more of that into your life so highly recommend
that book i can read books man so no there's
some great ones some i haven't heard of before
so thank you what about films and documentaries
i highly recommend one called finding joe It
is a documentary. You can find it on YouTube.
And it is all about the life and teachings of
Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was the guy
who coined the term the hero's journey. He studied
mythology as a passion and for a living. And
he realized that there is a common template in
every story we've ever heard. which is basically
the departure. There's the ordinary world, Luke
Skywalker's on Tatooine, Anderson's working at
his office before he becomes Neo. Then there's
the call to adventure. Then there's the initiation.
Then there's the lessons learned on the road
of trials. There's all the temptations that face
themselves. There's all the dragons you need
to battle. You throw the ring away like Frodo
did and you go home and you've learned something
and you make your community better for having
done that. So that's the hero's journey. And
the movie Finding Joe documentary really outlines
that. And then that's why this book is called
Heroic Christianity. Joseph Campbell himself
said that the hero's journey is a journey back
to wholeness. So Heroic Christianity is... you
know, my humble way of trying to get us back
to wholeness, which is described as Eden. We
start out in Eden, Adam and Eve get kicked out
of there, and then nowhere in the history of
mankind have we returned. So we're kind of in
the middle of a hero's journey that is incomplete.
And it is my humble wish that this book might
help us in a little bit, a little way to help
us complete that dream. Other documentaries,
I'm featured in a really cool documentary called
Dosed. You can find it at dosedmovie .com. And
there's two parts. There's a part one and then
there's a Dosed part two. I am in Dosed part
one, which is all about one young woman's journey
to use. ibogaine to come off of heroin another
she was a polysubstance drug user it's an incredible
movie and spoiler alert that woman is still doing
really great adrienne and then i'm in a as i
mentioned earlier there's a documentary coming
up it'll be on netflix november 3rd it's called
in waves and war and it really tracks marcus
capone and two other navy seals dj shipley and
maddie roberts on their their different timelines
with ibogaine so maddie actually goes through
a journey at ambio within the movie uh dj actually
joins him on that and uh you know we hear about
what happened to marcus and dj both in the past
their first times doing it as well fantastic
Well, speaking of great people, is there a person
that you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military, and associated professions of the world?
Have you had Gabor on? I haven't. I have tried.
So if you have the ability. I can definitely
put in a word for you, Gabor. Yeah, I would say
Gabor Mate. My business partner, Jonathan Dickinson,
when the time is right, when his book is maybe
a little closer to coming out, he's got a lot
of wisdom to share. And he is a psychedelic researcher.
He knows he's been to Gabon. He has relationships
with the country. He has been issued the first
and only export license to legally export iboga
out of Gabon. He's been initiated multiple times
into the medicine. So you definitely want to
speak to him as well. My other business partner,
Jose Anzunza, he's a rock star as well. So there's
four for you. And you said Jose was a paramedic.
Have I got that right? Yeah, he's a paramedic.
So paramedic and former firefighter as well.
So he'd be perfect. Absolutely. All right. Well,
let's make those happen if you're able to. That
would be phenomenal. 100%. All right. Well, then
the last question, which is going to be an interesting
one for you. Before we go to where people can
find you and Ambio, what do you do to decompress?
I grew up in a house with a sauna, and I tongue
-in -cheek will tell my friends and family I'm
going to church, and they know that means I'm
going into the sauna. In Tijuana, I don't plan
on being here forever, so I didn't want to drop.
you know six or seven grand on a sauna that i
wouldn't be able to take with me but then the
algorithm provided on instagram and i got one
of those sauna boxes which is a little steam
sauna so i use it all the time and then You know,
kind of same thing with the cold plunge. I didn't
want to break the bank. So I said the next time,
the first time a cold plunge comes up here that's
less than $1 ,500, I'm going to grab it. So I've
got the sauna and cold plunge here. And those
are incredible. Plus, I don't own a TV. I have,
I'll watch the odd thing on my phone, especially
when I'm on an airplane. I have a... kind of
a projector thing I can pull out and watch every
now and then as well. And I just read a lot of
books. I read a lot of fiction now. I listen
to nonfiction and I read a lot of fiction and
I've really gotten into fantasy lately. Like
for me, the joy of reading fiction is just how
far can the human imagination go? And just to
see some of these worlds and scenarios people
come up with really inspires me. And it's a good
way to end the day, the last half an hour reading
a chapter for sure. Beautiful. All right. Well,
then for people listening, where can they find
Ambio? Where can they find you? And then if you
want to talk to us about Malta. For sure. So
ambio .life is the website. Like I say, currently.
You just need to get to San Diego. It's very
easy to get here. And we work with all these
hard chargers, whether they're fire, whether
they're special forces, but we work with plenty
of regular people too. Anybody that's really
looking for an advantage in life to help them
heal. We're very good at getting people from
minus 10 to zero. We're also very good at getting
people from zero to plus 10. There's an optimization.
thing that happens with this protocol as well
traumatic brain injury if you hit your head if
things aren't working for you if it's just drinking
whatever it is it's it's don't be afraid to reach
out we do have a location that's opening up in
europe and that'll be in malta the island of
malta and that should be open come january so
if you wanted to be one of the first people to
go through there you can reach out to us around
that And we are on Instagram. At Ambio Life Sciences
is the company. At psychedelic underscore provider
is myself. And LinkedIn, Facebook, all that stuff
as well. I haven't quite stepped into the TikTok
world yet. Well, Trevor, I want to thank you
so much. I mean, firstly, for what you've done,
because there's no question that it was the SEAL
community that really opened the door for the
rest of us in uniform. But also for coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast, being so generous
with your time, being vulnerable about some of
your experiences too. I know this is going to
save a lot of lives. This is very early in the
first responder conversation, but with Angela
and some of the voices I've had on that have
been kind of forging the path with that, I think
the potential healing for our first responders,
military, and as you mentioned, everyone else
is so incredibly exciting. So I want to thank
you so, so much for coming on the show today.
Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been a
lot of fun. Thanks for taking the time to have
a really good conversation. Thanks, James.