WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

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I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a

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firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and

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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to

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transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind

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the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James

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Geering, and this week it is my absolute honor

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to welcome on the show co -founder of Ambio and

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the Canadian Psychedelic Association, Trevor

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Miller. Now, what makes this conversation so

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powerful is that there are many of my guests

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whose lives were literally saved through Ibogaine

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with Ambio. So we discuss a host of topics from

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Trevor's own journey into the world of psychedelics,

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the formation of veterans exploring treatment

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solutions, healing traumatic brain injury, overcoming

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addiction, the 343 Fund helping first responders.

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the failure of drug prohibition, and so much

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more. Now, before I get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you Trevor Millar. Enjoy. Well, Trevor, I

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want to start by saying thank you so much for

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taking the time and coming on the Behind the

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Shield podcast today. Thanks so much for having

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me, James. Excited to be here. Likewise, likewise.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you this

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afternoon? I am in my home in Tijuana, Mexico,

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one place that I never thought I would end up

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living, but I've been here for four years and

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it's kind of grown on me. Well, I want to get

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to your life story, but just before we do, when

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people hear Tijuana, I actually used to live

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in California, worked for a fire department there.

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So that was definitely somewhere that the lads

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would go to on vacation. But then you also hear

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about, you know, some of the dangers and challenges.

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So before we even get into what, you know, why

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you're there now, talk to me about living in

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that area. Is it as dangerous as we see on the

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news or is there a little scaremongering going

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on? I think there's definitely some scaremongering

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going on. We bump into that all the time, people

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scared of coming to Tijuana. And that's the first

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thing I say is just turn off the news. Me and

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my beautiful fiance have lived here for the last

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four years. And really, we haven't felt unsafe

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for a second. I'm pretty sure the 25 -year -old

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me could have found some trouble in Tijuana.

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But I think unless you're looking for it, I don't

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think you'll find it. What about... What's going

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on here with a lot of the Mexican men, women

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and children that may be not fully legally documented?

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Are you seeing any sort of kind of ripple effect

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on the other side of the border? The only thing

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I saw was this hilarious billboard saying Trump

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doesn't want you. We do. Come work at our call

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center. That's the only thing I've seen even

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closely related to that on the ground here. But,

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you know, I have some Mexican community for sure.

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A lot of Mexican community. Most of my friends

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down here are Mexican. But, you know, I'm sure

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they and their families have probably seen more

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impact than I would. Well, we'll circle around

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to. drug prohibition and why we even see some

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of the issues that we do in a little bit. But

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let's start at the very beginning of your timeline.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a

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little bit about your family dynamic, what your

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parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, I was born

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in a town called Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.

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It is about an hour west of Toronto. And my parents

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are still alive. They are still married. They've

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been married for more than 50 years. My father

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is an auto mechanic by trade, and then he bought

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into a business that was a fuel injection repair

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business. So he was the co -owner of a business.

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So I think that's where I got a bit of my entrepreneurial

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spark, perhaps, was knowing that you can own

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your own business through seeing my dad do it.

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And then my mom is a nurse and a nurse practitioner.

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So my mom... you know, has been a nurse for more

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than 40 years. She, in her later life, kind of

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put herself through correspondence school. So

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I have memories of her sitting at the table for

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hours on end, getting her BA, then getting her

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master's, and then becoming a nurse practitioner.

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So she's a real inspiration. And I think kind

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of the healing aspect of it. My background comes

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from, you know, knowing what a nurse does and

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seeing my mom do that day in and day out. My

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sister, I have one sister. She's three years

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younger than me, two school years younger than

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me. But she her name is Kristen. She's fantastic.

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She lives in Australia. She has four kids married

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to a lovely dude, Bradley. And they have three

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girls. And now Cameron's the youngest boy at

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about eight years old. And, yeah, I'd say it

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was a very idyllic life growing up. There was,

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you know, I can't pinpoint any serious traumatic

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events that happened to me. My friends, I have

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a super solid friend group. I was just thinking

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about this last night. Like, my best friends

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in the world are still, you know, the five or

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six dudes that I grew up with. Yeah, finished

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high school and was never a very good academic.

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I didn't want to go to university. I don't know

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if I could have gotten in. I'm sure I could have

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gotten into university if I pushed, but I definitely

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wanted to take a year off. So for that year off,

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I started working the front desk at a holiday

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inn in Cambridge, Ontario. I had been a lifeguard

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at that hotel growing up. That's kind of my sport

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is swimming. I was a competitive swimmer. And

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after that year at the front desk, I had a girlfriend

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at the time, and she was a dancer, and she got

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a job dancing on a cruise ship. So she basically

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said, I'm leaving in two weeks. And when she

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made that call, I said, I'm moving west. I had

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been a skier growing up as well, been skiing

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since I was six years old. and uh moved to the

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mountains so moved to whistler british columbia

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and uh i had some friends who already had moved

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there and some some older brothers of some buddies

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of mine and uh i started working the holiday

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in there and because i had um been Working, I

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knew the systems. I was training people my first

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day at that hotel. So I was 19 years old, training

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people on the first day that I arrived because

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Whistler's a very transient town. Nobody really

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knew the systems there. So I became the front

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desk manager of that hotel within a couple of

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months at 19 years old, which is crazy. Whistler's

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a resort town, a lot of partying, a lot of fun.

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A lot of perks. And I was able to offer perks

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to people being this hotel manager. So I could

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give away hotel rooms for friends and family

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coming in to people that worked around the town.

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So I never waited in line anywhere. I got free

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meals wherever I went. I had an older brother

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come and visit. A good buddy's older brother

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come and visit a couple years into that. And

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he's like, Trev. you like the godfather around

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here so that was pretty great at 19 years old

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thought i would stay in the hospitality industry

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for the rest of my life at that time i think

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but moved to vancouver in 20 or 2001 2000 maybe

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and uh opened up the hilton hotel there and Yeah,

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I've gone farther than what you've been asking

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for. Should I pause there? No, I've got a couple

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of things. So firstly, more current. Whistler,

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isn't that one of the places that has the longest

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ski season because of the elevation? Yeah, I

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don't know that it's long. It is actually longest

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because the glaciers you can basically always

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access. Like you can ski until mid -August on

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the glacier. So it'll go from it'll open up around

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U .S. Thanksgiving, which is around November

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22nd kind of thing. And it'll go until, you know,

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the real hills, the full mountain, you're going

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to go until about mid -April. But you can always

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hit that glacier up until mid -August. It's pretty

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awesome. What about is interesting with each

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of your parents? So starting with your dad first,

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being a mechanic and working with fuel injection

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specifically. what have been the conversation

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if any about um the pros and cons of hybrid electric

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cars you know full gas etc um my my dad always

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had this line when we heard a uh heard or smelt

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diesel and he's like ah it's the smell of money

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so i don't know they you know my dad he worked

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at a ford dealership in He was the service manager

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at a Ford dealership in the early years and then

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I thought he was like a Ford man for life but

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now he's driving a Honda CR -V with great mileage.

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I think he'd be totally into electric. He's also

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retired now so he doesn't have to fear for his

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well -being. What about your mother as far as

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the healthcare system over the span of her career?

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What have been some of the observations again

00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:19.960
of pros and cons, et cetera? Yeah, I think she's,

00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:25.240
you know, she's kind of like, she works in the

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cardiac unit. So that's her specialty. They put

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a lot of stints in hearts. They really. do save

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a lot of lives through what she does. I think

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she retired five years ago, but she still works

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a few days a week. I think that's coming to an

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end pretty soon. The interesting thing around

00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:49.460
the healthcare system and her perspective on

00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:52.980
it and me is when I started working with this

00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:57.110
very obscure plant medicine. and had to make

00:12:57.110 --> 00:12:59.149
the phone call to her and said yeah you know

00:12:59.149 --> 00:13:01.909
that stuff i've been posting about on facebook

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yeah well i moved out of vancouver opened out

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a house opened up a house providing this to people

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that was kind of her stop in the tracks like

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what are you doing so yeah i think we you know

00:13:14.690 --> 00:13:17.789
we sometimes butt heads a little bit on my view

00:13:17.789 --> 00:13:21.090
of kind of health care and alternative health

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care perhaps and uh what the mainstream says

00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:29.620
about different medical procedures, and she is

00:13:29.620 --> 00:13:32.879
definitely more mainstream than I am. So we bump

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heads a little bit sometimes. Well, what she's

00:13:36.019 --> 00:13:38.620
doing is very similar to what I did, which is

00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:42.179
when it's too late. The person's come in, they're

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completely occluded, and she and her team are

00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.879
opening the vessel up and saving that life. When

00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:52.039
you call 911, my crew would arrive. Whatever

00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.000
was needed, whether it was nitro and aspirin

00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:56.419
or whether it was a full CPR. I mean, we would

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try and save that person. That's amazing. But

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then the question has to be, well, why are people

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getting here? Why are so many people getting

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here? I think you need to have both. You need

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to have those life -saving people, absolutely.

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But where's the conversation? I quote this all

00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.600
the time, Desmond Tutu. We spend so much time

00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.460
pulling people out of the river, we forget to

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go upstream and find out why they're falling

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in in the first place. I think that's exactly,

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you know, her and my perspective are the reactive,

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but we've also got to have the proactive conversation.

00:14:25.929 --> 00:14:29.570
Yeah, I've heard that quote before, maybe not

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exactly, but in related to health care. And that's,

00:14:32.549 --> 00:14:35.610
you know, physicians as well. Like you graduate,

00:14:36.169 --> 00:14:38.769
you're told a certain number of things while

00:14:38.769 --> 00:14:41.750
you're at medical school, and then you get patients

00:14:41.750 --> 00:14:43.769
thrown at you and you've got no time to really

00:14:43.769 --> 00:14:45.909
consider what else is going on. I'll give my

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mom credit. She's incredibly healthy. She exercises.

00:14:50.009 --> 00:14:52.769
She's been an advocate for that. My parents both

00:14:52.769 --> 00:14:57.019
taught aerobics. Maybe to date myself in kind

00:14:57.019 --> 00:14:59.080
of the 80s, they were both aerobics teachers

00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:03.519
and very active at the YMCA near where I lived.

00:15:03.620 --> 00:15:08.279
And my mom has always been anti -smoking. Like

00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:12.039
she, you know, she realizes the dangers of smoking.

00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:15.919
And yeah, it's gotten into some heated arguments

00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.620
with family members over that at certain times

00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:21.500
as well. So yeah, to her credit, she definitely

00:15:21.500 --> 00:15:25.570
sees that there are some. the upstream causes

00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:29.470
to the downstream stuff she sees in the cardiac

00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:32.889
unit. Absolutely. Well, you took us in kind of

00:15:32.889 --> 00:15:35.990
the hotel journey. How did that then lead you

00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:43.629
to also be on a cruise ship? Yeah, so I had that

00:15:43.629 --> 00:15:45.490
girlfriend I mentioned. She worked on cruise

00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:48.370
ships. I had another dude that I grew up with.

00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.120
He worked on cruise ships and both of them came

00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.000
to me at various times and said, Trevor, you

00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:56.820
would really be good at this. You should look

00:15:56.820 --> 00:16:04.500
into doing this one day. So that was. So I left

00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:07.220
the hotel business, I started selling software

00:16:07.220 --> 00:16:12.899
in 2001, and that was a wild ride, but and lasted

00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:16.690
about. a decade or just just short of that and

00:16:16.690 --> 00:16:19.450
then i was just at a point where i was miserable

00:16:19.450 --> 00:16:22.169
in whatever job i did have i had nothing else

00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:25.950
going on i had no no partner and i said it's

00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:28.230
time for me to look into cruise ships so i reached

00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:31.730
out to that buddy mikey i said i think it's time

00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:35.669
he pulled some strings and he got me a job and

00:16:35.669 --> 00:16:40.320
he got me a job as the lowest rung on the entertainment

00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.759
staff ladder, which is crew staff, which is basically

00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.759
playing Pictionary and line dancing for a living.

00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:51.259
So I was probably 32 years old, 32 or 33 at the

00:16:51.259 --> 00:16:55.200
time. And I took that job, but I said, I will

00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:59.519
become a cruise director within a year. And everybody

00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.769
said, that's impossible. And I managed to become

00:17:02.769 --> 00:17:06.210
a cruise director within eight months. So I kind

00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:09.750
of rounded out the last five years on ships being

00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:12.210
cruise director, which is actually an awesome

00:17:12.210 --> 00:17:18.970
gig. Maybe not amazing for the soul, but it's

00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:24.670
a lot of fun for sure. I just went on Royal Caribbean.

00:17:24.829 --> 00:17:26.710
It's funny, for some reason, their cruise director

00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:29.910
is usually British as well. Yeah, they are really

00:17:29.910 --> 00:17:32.250
are the kind of backbone of the ship. And if

00:17:32.250 --> 00:17:35.650
you ever saw that one, what was it called? Poop

00:17:35.650 --> 00:17:38.250
Cruise, that documentary. I haven't played on

00:17:38.250 --> 00:17:40.730
that yet. I should check it out. That cruise

00:17:40.730 --> 00:17:43.170
director was suddenly called to earn all of their

00:17:43.170 --> 00:17:46.089
salary at that point. Let's just say that. Cool.

00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:49.309
I'll definitely check that out. All right. Well

00:17:49.309 --> 00:17:52.930
then, so then where did that lead you to? So

00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:56.500
I think we need to step back a little bit. After,

00:17:56.619 --> 00:18:01.380
I find it interesting that 9 -11 impacted so

00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:04.700
many of the people that I work with now, because

00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:08.599
9 -11 really impacted me and really changed the

00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.940
direction of my life. Because after 9 -11, before

00:18:12.940 --> 00:18:16.220
9 -11, I was addicted to the media. I would read,

00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:19.259
it was kind of pre -internet media in any large

00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:23.829
scale, but I'd read three newspapers a day. righteously

00:18:23.829 --> 00:18:26.809
pissed off at the state of the world, but I wouldn't

00:18:26.809 --> 00:18:30.569
do anything about it. And the morning of 9 -11,

00:18:30.829 --> 00:18:33.269
I woke up, I turned on the news network like

00:18:33.269 --> 00:18:37.490
I always did, and I saw what happened. And a

00:18:37.490 --> 00:18:42.289
couple of months after that, I stopped in my

00:18:42.289 --> 00:18:46.640
tracks realizing... holy smokes the media really

00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.619
is making me crazy so i went on a media fast

00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:53.640
at that point and which lasted about two or three

00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.240
years and i i didn't read any newspaper i didn't

00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.519
turn on any news network and at the same time

00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.539
i said well i realized the media had turned me

00:19:03.539 --> 00:19:08.140
into a passive yet obsessive observer of all

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:10.859
that was wrong in the world so instead i said

00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:14.170
what can i do I'll set this stuff aside and what

00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:16.829
can I do to make the world a better place? So

00:19:16.829 --> 00:19:19.809
I turned my attention to Vancouver's downtown

00:19:19.809 --> 00:19:23.789
east side, which is known as the poorest postal

00:19:23.789 --> 00:19:27.089
code in Canada because it is, but it's, you know,

00:19:27.109 --> 00:19:30.950
maybe six to 10 square blocks of just abject

00:19:30.950 --> 00:19:34.250
poverty, very concentrated in this one neighborhood.

00:19:34.490 --> 00:19:36.589
And it's a neighborhood that ever since I moved

00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:38.750
to Vancouver and drove through the first time

00:19:38.750 --> 00:19:42.490
I was incredibly fascinated with. And I just

00:19:42.490 --> 00:19:45.549
started looking at how I might help out in that

00:19:45.549 --> 00:19:50.130
neighborhood. And I started poking around, volunteered

00:19:50.130 --> 00:19:54.089
for a little bit with an organization and really

00:19:54.089 --> 00:19:58.789
just took it upon myself, recognizing that I

00:19:58.789 --> 00:20:03.490
had no skills on paper that should lead me to

00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:05.329
believe in any way, shape or form I'd be able

00:20:05.329 --> 00:20:08.569
to help this neighborhood. But I also realized

00:20:08.569 --> 00:20:11.349
that maybe that was an asset. Maybe I'd be able

00:20:11.349 --> 00:20:14.950
to have fresh eyes around this issue, which sort

00:20:14.950 --> 00:20:18.130
of came to be true. But that essentially turned

00:20:18.130 --> 00:20:21.890
into about a 10 -year networking and research

00:20:21.890 --> 00:20:28.990
project. And then in 2009, so I worked on cruise

00:20:28.990 --> 00:20:34.650
ships. So 2001, this started. 2005, I made a

00:20:34.650 --> 00:20:38.009
bit of money selling stock options in a software

00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:40.920
company at a good time. i spent four months in

00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:45.319
costa rica surfing once uh there was something

00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.180
something profound happened while i was surfing

00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:51.680
in costa rica though i was laying in a hammock

00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.619
i think i'd probably just smoked a little bit

00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:56.420
of a joint i had just been reading a book i set

00:20:56.420 --> 00:21:00.730
down the book and i really got overwhelmed with

00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:04.609
this feeling of complete perfect peace and oneness

00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:07.430
and my goal up until that point is i want to

00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:10.710
be able to afford to do nothing if i want to

00:21:10.710 --> 00:21:13.329
do it so i had finally accomplished that goal

00:21:13.329 --> 00:21:17.509
i was in costa rica doing nothing came into this

00:21:17.509 --> 00:21:21.069
state of oneness on on this hammock finally everything

00:21:21.069 --> 00:21:24.150
i'd wanted and then this idea crept in and said

00:21:24.150 --> 00:21:27.019
you know You're not going to really be able to

00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:29.640
enjoy this until you help more people get here.

00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.160
And I'm like, I immediately knew that I was going

00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:34.980
to turn my attention back towards the downtown

00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:37.420
east side. So I moved back to Vancouver shortly

00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:41.799
after that. In 2005, I took about six months.

00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:45.180
I moved into that neighborhood for a couple of

00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.960
those months. And I really did intense research.

00:21:48.339 --> 00:21:51.700
But it was actually then that I ran out of money.

00:21:52.190 --> 00:21:55.130
and said, I need to find a job. So that's when

00:21:55.130 --> 00:21:59.230
I started to work on cruise ships. So then after

00:21:59.230 --> 00:22:07.130
worked on cruise ships for a number of years,

00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:10.089
met the woman that I eventually married, now

00:22:10.089 --> 00:22:13.029
my ex -wife, Becky. She's wonderful. We're still

00:22:13.029 --> 00:22:15.150
very good friends. We threw a happy divorce party

00:22:15.150 --> 00:22:19.119
when it happened. We moved back to Vancouver

00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:23.799
in 2009. And in 2009, I put my boots to the ground

00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.480
in the downtown east side again. Had a conversation

00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:31.500
with a woman down there who ran a nonprofit called

00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:35.319
the Vancouver Area Network of Drug Users. And

00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.559
I was just speaking to her about things that

00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:39.640
I might do to help and that I was keen to help.

00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:42.019
And did she have any ideas? And she really didn't.

00:22:42.019 --> 00:22:43.900
But we had a lovely conversation that went on

00:22:43.900 --> 00:22:46.160
for like three hours. She's a real... force of

00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.440
nature down there, Ann Livingston is her name.

00:22:48.579 --> 00:22:50.940
But the whole time I was speaking to her, there

00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:53.839
was a binder on the wall behind her that said

00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:57.319
Ibogaine on it. And I said, just near the end

00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:00.019
of that conversation, what about Ibogaine? And

00:23:00.019 --> 00:23:02.640
she says, actually, I have people calling me

00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.799
for that all the time. And I said, let me follow

00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:09.759
that thread. And everything good in my life now

00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:12.880
has come out of that decision. Well, let's go

00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.519
back for a second. Is it Vancouver that Dr. Gabor

00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.839
Maté is from? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he wrote a

00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.240
book called In the Realm of the Hungry Ghosts,

00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:25.339
which was all about his 12 years working in this

00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:29.119
neighborhood, the downtown Eastside. And it was

00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:34.319
great, actually. Once we set up, you know, we

00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.500
can get to the details of this, but I ended up

00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:38.640
setting up a business providing Ibogaine to people

00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.099
in Vancouver. was introduced to Gabor very quickly

00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:45.339
after that. He said, I'll do whatever I can to

00:23:45.339 --> 00:23:47.700
help you guys out. Let me know what you need.

00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.380
So he helped find us a physician that worked

00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.440
with us for the five years we were operating

00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.259
there. And yeah, him and I have just become really

00:23:56.259 --> 00:24:00.180
good buddies. We've actually done Ibogaine together.

00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.079
We took a week and did it together with a buddy

00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:06.079
of mine. So we have the same birthday as well.

00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:08.440
But yeah, we just get along like a house on fire

00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:11.440
when we are in touch. Yeah, he's an amazing guy.

00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:16.000
And he, along with Johan Hari, I'll credit Johan's

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:17.859
book, Chasing the Scream, is really what opened

00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:21.420
my eyes to, you know, the epic failure of the

00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:24.559
prohibition of drugs overall. And some of the

00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.039
healing modalities are out there. So going back

00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.940
to when you kind of first found yourself in Vancouver,

00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:34.180
what were you seeing? Because we are sold this

00:24:34.180 --> 00:24:36.019
bill of goods that, you know, if you're just

00:24:36.019 --> 00:24:38.920
tough on crime and you're tough on addicts and...

00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:42.130
You don't waste Narcan on them and all this kind

00:24:42.130 --> 00:24:45.269
of two -dimensional bullshit that this is a success.

00:24:45.529 --> 00:24:47.990
But you ask anyone, it's amazing, even the law

00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:49.630
enforcement community now when they come on,

00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:52.690
they have a very different picture of the success

00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:56.309
of this. So in this environment where supposedly

00:24:56.309 --> 00:24:59.190
we can arrest our way out of addiction, what

00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:01.210
were you seeing with your own eyes in the city

00:25:01.210 --> 00:25:05.380
of Vancouver? Yeah, for one, I know... like from

00:25:05.380 --> 00:25:08.079
speaking to ann livingston in particular she

00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:12.319
really talks about how the legal system is just

00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:18.819
bent against any good happening like they will

00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:24.240
people will get arrested miss a court date because

00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.859
they don't keep calendars then they'll have another

00:25:26.859 --> 00:25:29.500
warrant out for their arrest and it's just this

00:25:29.500 --> 00:25:33.549
constant rotation of their life being dragged

00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:37.170
down and down and down further through the legal

00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:44.710
system, which is really sad. And that's not necessarily

00:25:44.710 --> 00:25:48.190
always the approach in Vancouver as well. Vancouver

00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:53.819
is very harm reduction focused. And I think there's

00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:56.720
a fine line to walk there, like Vancouver Area

00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.140
Network of Drug Users. What they would do when

00:25:59.140 --> 00:26:01.059
I first encountered them, they're probably still

00:26:01.059 --> 00:26:04.299
doing the same, is they would pay people a stipend

00:26:04.299 --> 00:26:07.240
of even like two or three dollars to come in

00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:11.079
to sit and listen to a meeting where maybe somebody's

00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:14.059
presenting that, you know, how to use your needle

00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:17.799
cleanly so that you don't get infection or how

00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.779
to use your crack pipe properly so that you don't.

00:26:21.099 --> 00:26:25.359
get sick from that. It's also been a force for

00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:30.500
helping people organize. Bureaucrats make decisions

00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:34.119
that impact lives dramatically. They switched

00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.779
the whole population from methadone to methadose,

00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:41.700
thinking they're kind of the same thing, but

00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:45.400
there were radical withdrawals. The whole neighborhood

00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.319
went crazy for a few weeks during that switchover.

00:26:50.430 --> 00:26:54.269
So I am all for harm reduction, and I am all

00:26:54.269 --> 00:26:57.910
for really doing what we can to get people treatment

00:26:57.910 --> 00:27:01.930
that works as well. Because there's, yeah, you

00:27:01.930 --> 00:27:05.470
know, something's not working. As much compassion

00:27:05.470 --> 00:27:09.549
as I've seen cities of Vancouver have for the

00:27:09.549 --> 00:27:14.710
people that use drugs there, it's still a disaster

00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:17.069
zone. It's still like Armageddon when you go

00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:21.069
down there. I sat with João Goulal, who's the

00:27:21.069 --> 00:27:23.390
man who spearheaded decriminalization in Portugal

00:27:23.390 --> 00:27:26.809
when I went to Lisbon a few years ago. And it

00:27:26.809 --> 00:27:29.930
was amazing to hear what made them change. And

00:27:29.930 --> 00:27:32.269
it was simply they, like most of the world, had

00:27:32.269 --> 00:27:35.329
been kind of forced into the prohibition model

00:27:35.329 --> 00:27:39.589
after Anslinger's war on drugs from the 30s.

00:27:39.829 --> 00:27:43.710
And they had the humility as a nation to say

00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:46.720
this isn't working. And this was back, I think

00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:51.099
it was like 2000 or late 90s. And so they got

00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:54.140
together truly democratically and actually asked

00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:56.920
the people and their vote actually counted and

00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.980
put it to a vote. Well, what if we do a different

00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:04.200
model? What if we look at the addict as a patient

00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.220
and put it in the hands of the medical community?

00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.400
We're not going to legalize it. So it's not going

00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.400
to be like you can go into the grocery store

00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.740
and buy crystal meth and all these other things.

00:28:14.910 --> 00:28:17.410
If you are caught with a true users amount, you

00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:20.170
are not even detained. You will be taken in and

00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:23.029
given basically an education on all the resources

00:28:23.029 --> 00:28:26.890
that are available to you. And within less than

00:28:26.890 --> 00:28:29.049
10 years, about eight years, they went from the

00:28:29.049 --> 00:28:31.710
worst crisis in, I think it was either Europe

00:28:31.710 --> 00:28:34.609
or the world, let's say it's Europe, to the lowest.

00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:37.650
Because what they did is they... They put the

00:28:37.650 --> 00:28:39.829
money into the resources. I think this is what

00:28:39.829 --> 00:28:41.930
a lot of the countries that try this don't do.

00:28:42.230 --> 00:28:44.369
They take the money, they put it into creation

00:28:44.369 --> 00:28:46.750
of addiction counseling, mental health counseling,

00:28:46.910 --> 00:28:50.049
housing, job creation, you know, all these things

00:28:50.049 --> 00:28:52.430
that we know help put a human being back on their

00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:55.170
feet. There are still addicts in Portugal that

00:28:55.170 --> 00:28:57.130
they just weren't able to save. There's always

00:28:57.130 --> 00:28:59.769
got to be, you know, talked about. You can't

00:28:59.769 --> 00:29:01.809
get every single person and you don't point at

00:29:01.809 --> 00:29:03.829
the few that didn't work for and say it doesn't

00:29:03.829 --> 00:29:07.269
work. But they had huge success. And I actually

00:29:07.269 --> 00:29:09.710
had Zhao on a few months ago again, kind of revisiting

00:29:09.710 --> 00:29:12.269
it. Because it was doing so well, there were

00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:15.049
some cuts made. It started getting worse again.

00:29:15.130 --> 00:29:17.049
And then now they're putting the money back in.

00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:18.609
They're like, okay, we have to keep funding this.

00:29:19.130 --> 00:29:21.690
But this is what I think the world needs to hear

00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:23.549
is there are countries around the world that

00:29:23.549 --> 00:29:25.509
have found that if you invest in these people

00:29:25.509 --> 00:29:28.369
and you take away the stigma of having the audacity

00:29:28.369 --> 00:29:30.930
to be an addict. And you're not fearing arrest.

00:29:31.029 --> 00:29:33.589
So you get this, you know, like you said, revolving

00:29:33.589 --> 00:29:37.450
door of criminality and criminal records. Most

00:29:37.450 --> 00:29:39.289
people want to get healed. Most people want to

00:29:39.289 --> 00:29:42.069
get back on their feet. But this prohibition

00:29:42.069 --> 00:29:44.829
model, whether it's a Portuguese soldier coming

00:29:44.829 --> 00:29:47.230
back from Africa a few decades ago, whether it's

00:29:47.230 --> 00:29:50.170
a Navy SEAL or a firefighter here today. It's

00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:52.750
the same thing. If you stigmatize addiction,

00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:55.009
you send them into the hands of the underworld,

00:29:55.289 --> 00:29:57.190
which again, as we alluded to at the beginning

00:29:57.190 --> 00:30:00.109
of this conversation, then empowers cartels and

00:30:00.109 --> 00:30:04.230
other groups and they get stronger. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:04.269 --> 00:30:08.049
I think Portugal seems to be doing it way better

00:30:08.049 --> 00:30:11.269
than anybody else. That's for sure. And I think

00:30:11.269 --> 00:30:16.690
there's like, I think the end goal needs to be.

00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.000
helping to get people rehabilitated and back

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:25.539
into society as a functional citizen. And I think

00:30:25.539 --> 00:30:29.299
that is what's missing a lot, especially here

00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:34.519
on the West Coast. Like there's this almost political

00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:38.119
ideology that says, no, the system's broken.

00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.420
You need to fix the system first. It's not even

00:30:41.420 --> 00:30:44.900
fair to ask these people. to get better. Michael

00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:48.160
Schellenberger's book, San Francisco, really

00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:55.559
kind of hits on that. And yeah, so I think the

00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.099
end goal is the betterment of the individual.

00:30:59.380 --> 00:31:03.619
I think that's the only sane end goal. And I

00:31:03.619 --> 00:31:08.599
think the repercussions of that is society gets

00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.460
better. But you work on the individual, you focus

00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:14.819
on the individual. I have seen what modern Western

00:31:14.819 --> 00:31:17.619
medicine would call miracles with this medicine

00:31:17.619 --> 00:31:21.440
that we work with. So it's, you know, it's doable

00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:25.559
and a system can be built up around doing it

00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.180
and it should be. And I think taking something

00:31:28.180 --> 00:31:33.180
like what Portugal has done and injecting maybe

00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:36.519
some large scale use of a plant medicine like

00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:40.410
ibogaine would be profound. Absolutely. And just

00:31:40.410 --> 00:31:42.990
to quote Johan Hari again, the opposite of addiction

00:31:42.990 --> 00:31:45.490
is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is

00:31:45.490 --> 00:31:48.609
connection. So if we're isolating and shaming

00:31:48.609 --> 00:31:51.970
the addict, we're making it worse. If you, you

00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:54.430
know, encircle them with healing, whether it's

00:31:54.430 --> 00:31:56.630
the community itself or some of the tools like

00:31:56.630 --> 00:31:59.150
Ibogaine, then what are you doing? You're forging

00:31:59.150 --> 00:32:02.329
healing that way too. Yeah. And you have to recognize

00:32:02.329 --> 00:32:07.529
that like a couple of things. For one, I have

00:32:07.529 --> 00:32:10.309
met more than, more than one person that said

00:32:10.309 --> 00:32:13.529
cocaine saved my life you know i would have killed

00:32:13.529 --> 00:32:16.269
myself a long time ago if it weren't for the

00:32:16.269 --> 00:32:19.410
relief i got from cocaine or insert any drug

00:32:19.410 --> 00:32:22.069
in there i know plenty of people like that i

00:32:22.069 --> 00:32:24.109
think the other thing you really need to do is

00:32:24.109 --> 00:32:28.809
find compassion for people who use all drugs

00:32:28.809 --> 00:32:32.190
because of what i just said uh you know these

00:32:32.190 --> 00:32:35.890
folks are are self -medicating trauma that society

00:32:36.829 --> 00:32:40.029
or their lives, obviously their lives, gave them.

00:32:40.309 --> 00:32:45.130
But to look at somebody like an opiate addict

00:32:45.130 --> 00:32:49.470
in particular, with other drugs, there might

00:32:49.470 --> 00:32:52.309
be some aspect of kind of the classic, well,

00:32:52.349 --> 00:32:55.430
why don't you just stop? Just stop. It's obviously

00:32:55.430 --> 00:32:58.349
not working for you. Just stop the stuff. That's

00:32:58.349 --> 00:33:01.829
maybe somewhat fair to say with certain substances,

00:33:01.930 --> 00:33:06.140
but opioids give you... when you stop them the

00:33:06.140 --> 00:33:09.819
most painful withdrawals these this incredible

00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:13.500
sickness that goes on for weeks months even years

00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:17.440
with post -acute withdrawal symptoms so again

00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:20.339
thank god for ibogaine we'll get into that but

00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:24.819
to to say to somebody that there's just it kind

00:33:24.819 --> 00:33:28.500
of just takes away The morality around it, like

00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:32.160
there's no moral degeneracy in just trying to

00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:36.059
self -medicate this incredible pain that, you

00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:39.099
know, you probably didn't know was going to come.

00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:42.400
You know, heroin seems to work for people for

00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:45.140
the first little while. It's once you've been

00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:47.539
on it for weeks at a time and then try and stop.

00:33:47.619 --> 00:33:49.660
And there's this incredible sickness that comes

00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:51.740
with it. And you know that that sickness will

00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:53.880
disappear if you just take a little bit more

00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:58.619
heroin. Yeah, I think it's easy to find compassion

00:33:58.619 --> 00:34:02.579
for people like that. The other one is that people

00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:04.319
are getting hooked on right now that they have

00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:06.920
no idea that they're even hooked on it is Kratom

00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.400
or Kratom, depending on how you want to pronounce

00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:14.699
it. But Kratom is, I call it gas station heroin

00:34:14.699 --> 00:34:22.300
because it is a coffee plant. It hits the opioid

00:34:22.300 --> 00:34:25.059
receptors. It's available in... Almost every

00:34:25.059 --> 00:34:28.019
gas station in the United States right now, it's

00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:31.059
available in these lovely little shots that make

00:34:31.059 --> 00:34:32.760
you feel really good. And they make you feel

00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:34.860
really good because it's hitting those opioid

00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:38.320
receptors. But just like anything that hits the

00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.760
opioid receptors, you take it long enough and

00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:44.639
your own body shuts down its own endogenous opiate

00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.500
making system. And then you need that from the

00:34:47.500 --> 00:34:49.960
outside. And then all of a sudden you're dependent.

00:34:50.179 --> 00:34:52.539
But because this stuff's so readily available.

00:34:53.530 --> 00:34:56.010
People don't even recognize that they're dependent

00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:58.650
because they haven't had to try and stop before.

00:34:59.269 --> 00:35:01.929
It tastes great. It doesn't really taste great.

00:35:01.989 --> 00:35:04.190
It tastes like crap, but it makes me feel great.

00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:06.150
And I'll just keep taking it. We just treated

00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:10.989
a guy a couple of weeks ago who I think they

00:35:10.989 --> 00:35:14.150
just outlawed the particular alkaloid out of

00:35:14.150 --> 00:35:16.469
this, which was available in gas stations as

00:35:16.469 --> 00:35:21.010
well, 7 -OH. But this guy was taking the 7 -OH

00:35:21.010 --> 00:35:27.099
stuff, had no idea. He heard somebody say something

00:35:27.099 --> 00:35:29.900
about tapering off of it. He's like, taper off

00:35:29.900 --> 00:35:31.940
of it? Why do I have to taper off it? He thought

00:35:31.940 --> 00:35:35.280
he could just stop. He was in a hospital for

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:39.159
10 days with debilitating withdrawals because

00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.260
of the stuff that he was taking. And yeah, nobody's

00:35:42.260 --> 00:35:44.179
kind of warning people that that stuff's highly

00:35:44.179 --> 00:35:46.579
addictive. Kind of the opposite. I was just at

00:35:46.579 --> 00:35:50.170
a psychedelic conference in June in Denver. And

00:35:50.170 --> 00:35:53.170
our booth was near a stage and I heard this woman

00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:58.170
from the, I don't know, Kratom industry saying

00:35:58.170 --> 00:36:00.889
that, yes, it's addictive, but so is coffee.

00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:04.329
If you don't drink coffee regularly, or if you

00:36:04.329 --> 00:36:06.530
do drink coffee regularly and you stop it for

00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:08.449
a couple of days, you're going to have withdrawals.

00:36:08.469 --> 00:36:12.389
I'm like, no, it is not the same thing, lady.

00:36:13.570 --> 00:36:16.309
Almost half of the people we treat at Ambio in

00:36:16.309 --> 00:36:20.610
our detox program now. is kratom because really

00:36:20.610 --> 00:36:23.909
i just stopped they can't it's crazy so people

00:36:23.909 --> 00:36:26.530
get their backs up though man when i talk about

00:36:26.530 --> 00:36:29.969
this i've tried to dip into a few online conversations

00:36:29.969 --> 00:36:33.329
about this and people defend this stuff like

00:36:33.329 --> 00:36:35.989
crazy i'm like i've had it a few times myself

00:36:35.989 --> 00:36:38.829
it's kind of fun i don't drink alcohol anymore

00:36:38.829 --> 00:36:41.349
so to be able to relax with something like that

00:36:41.349 --> 00:36:44.050
is kind of neat i also know that if you take

00:36:44.050 --> 00:36:45.550
it frequently you're going to become dependent

00:36:45.550 --> 00:36:49.329
on it and that's just How it is. It's an opioid.

00:36:50.650 --> 00:36:53.789
I had a guy, I'm forgetting his last name, Chris,

00:36:54.050 --> 00:37:00.949
who was a member of a powerlifting family. I'm

00:37:00.949 --> 00:37:03.510
blanking on his name. Yes, Chris Bell. Thank

00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:06.190
you. Thank you. So Chris was on. And at that

00:37:06.190 --> 00:37:08.949
time, he was talking about how successful Kratom

00:37:08.949 --> 00:37:11.230
was. And I think he had the same journey because

00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:13.449
I think we spoke later. But I had another guest

00:37:13.449 --> 00:37:15.969
on the show that Kratom almost killed him. And

00:37:15.969 --> 00:37:20.190
he was in rehab for weeks trying to get off the

00:37:20.190 --> 00:37:22.449
stuff. So this is what's interesting about it.

00:37:22.449 --> 00:37:24.369
I've kind of heard both sides. Chris was quite

00:37:24.369 --> 00:37:26.050
early on in the whole Creighton conversation.

00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:28.949
I would imagine if you talk to him, he's got

00:37:28.949 --> 00:37:30.889
a very different story now too. I've met Chris.

00:37:31.010 --> 00:37:33.949
Yeah, Chris has spent some time down here. He

00:37:33.949 --> 00:37:36.110
had a camera following him. Hopefully that movie

00:37:36.110 --> 00:37:38.650
gets made in the end. I think there were funding

00:37:38.650 --> 00:37:42.840
issues or something. yeah he made a movie called

00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:46.099
leaf of faith which was on netflix which was

00:37:46.099 --> 00:37:48.500
all about kratom and how wonderful it is and

00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:50.760
it is wonderful if you're looking within the

00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:53.880
context of pain relief temporary pain relief

00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:59.820
perhaps but um he yeah the tune changed over

00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:03.380
the years for sure as he realized wow this is

00:38:03.380 --> 00:38:07.920
uh this is a bit more of a beast than he originally

00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.280
thought it only mentioned the potential of it

00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:13.269
being addictive Once in that movie, Leaf of Faith,

00:38:13.469 --> 00:38:18.409
where, yeah, it's hard to come off of. Absolutely.

00:38:18.630 --> 00:38:20.750
All right. Well, you mentioned about seeing a

00:38:20.750 --> 00:38:23.849
binder. Ibogaine is written on. You're about

00:38:23.849 --> 00:38:25.849
to pull that thread. So kind of walk us through

00:38:25.849 --> 00:38:28.010
the journey you found about that specific plant

00:38:28.010 --> 00:38:30.929
medicine. Yeah. So I guess, first of all, I had

00:38:30.929 --> 00:38:33.969
exposure to psychedelics at a fairly young age.

00:38:33.989 --> 00:38:38.610
In the mid -90s, there was a... a famous LSD

00:38:38.610 --> 00:38:41.769
chemist named Nicholas Sands, who was escaping

00:38:41.769 --> 00:38:45.449
the cops in the States and moved to British Columbia

00:38:45.449 --> 00:38:49.190
to Coquitlam. And he and a guy that I'm now friends

00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:52.409
with, Peter Vanderheiden, produced millions of

00:38:52.409 --> 00:38:55.489
hits of LSD, and it just flooded the market.

00:38:55.590 --> 00:38:58.150
So if you look at a graph, there was a peak of

00:38:58.150 --> 00:39:02.949
LSD use. in the late 60s early 70s then there

00:39:02.949 --> 00:39:05.150
was a peak in the mid 90s when i was in high

00:39:05.150 --> 00:39:09.070
school so i had exposure to them um you know

00:39:09.070 --> 00:39:12.010
i kind of grew up on the the just say no to drugs

00:39:12.010 --> 00:39:15.409
propaganda i i thought that was effective propaganda

00:39:15.409 --> 00:39:17.309
at the time i would have told you that i would

00:39:17.309 --> 00:39:22.030
have never tried drugs as a kid But LSD was different.

00:39:22.210 --> 00:39:25.710
I knew the Beatles used LSD. There was some kind

00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:28.550
of an interest. The very first opportunity to

00:39:28.550 --> 00:39:31.289
have that, I took it. And we used it a little

00:39:31.289 --> 00:39:37.469
bit as kids, as young men. And I didn't know

00:39:37.469 --> 00:39:40.869
about the therapeutic potential of it. But I

00:39:40.869 --> 00:39:43.130
remember saying to my buddies that this is what

00:39:43.130 --> 00:39:45.809
adults have forgotten that has made the world

00:39:45.809 --> 00:39:49.059
so screwed up. So it's kind of therapeutic nature

00:39:49.059 --> 00:39:52.840
bled through into what it was doing for us. And

00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:56.280
then I moved to Vancouver in 2001, as I said,

00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.280
and there was a shop that I discovered called

00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:01.980
the Urban Shaman. And the Urban Shaman sold a

00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:05.699
whole bunch of legal entheogenic plants like

00:40:05.699 --> 00:40:08.119
salvia was legal at the time. The first time

00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.300
I went in there, that's what I bought, salvia

00:40:10.300 --> 00:40:14.000
divinorum. And that place had a bit of a community

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:16.769
around it. that i and i hung out there a lot

00:40:16.769 --> 00:40:19.949
and that was the first time i heard about iboga

00:40:19.949 --> 00:40:24.329
ibogaine comes from iboga and i heard it was

00:40:24.329 --> 00:40:29.070
uh a long trip 24 hours long and it cost 500

00:40:29.070 --> 00:40:32.130
bucks a dose so i was broke at the time and definitely

00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:35.789
not enough interested in a 24 hour long psychedelic

00:40:35.789 --> 00:40:38.849
journey so i ironically now said i'm definitely

00:40:38.849 --> 00:40:42.099
never trying that one But I think around the

00:40:42.099 --> 00:40:44.099
same time, I heard that there was a potential

00:40:44.099 --> 00:40:48.420
for it helping with opioid use disorder. But

00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:52.079
I never really put two and two together that

00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.219
it might be helpful for this downtown Eastside

00:40:54.219 --> 00:40:57.860
neighborhood until that meeting in 2009. This

00:40:57.860 --> 00:41:00.059
binder on the wall behind her said Ibogaine.

00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:03.300
She said, people are calling me for that all

00:41:03.300 --> 00:41:05.280
the time because there was an Ibogaine treatment

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:09.199
center on Vancouver Island, which had shut down.

00:41:10.010 --> 00:41:12.510
But the website was still up and the website

00:41:12.510 --> 00:41:15.429
had Ann's name on it saying we're closed. But

00:41:15.429 --> 00:41:17.610
if you're looking for more information, maybe

00:41:17.610 --> 00:41:20.610
Ann could call you. So it was basically a pipeline.

00:41:20.769 --> 00:41:22.989
And then from then on, anytime somebody called

00:41:22.989 --> 00:41:27.090
her, she would forward them to me. I did give

00:41:27.090 --> 00:41:30.230
it to a couple of people out of the gate. Thankfully,

00:41:30.269 --> 00:41:33.110
nobody got hurt. I quickly realized I had no

00:41:33.110 --> 00:41:36.170
idea what I was doing. So when people called,

00:41:36.389 --> 00:41:39.019
I would basically say. you should go to mexico

00:41:39.019 --> 00:41:41.139
if you're going to do it on your own here's what

00:41:41.139 --> 00:41:45.519
little i know in 2012 i got a call from anne

00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:48.320
she said there's an ibogaine providers conference

00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:52.039
in town did you know i said no she said i put

00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.460
your name on the list as a provider you should

00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:57.920
go down so i went down and spent the next four

00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.159
days with uh you know people i now know are kind

00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:05.380
of the ogs of ibogaine providing The guy running

00:42:05.380 --> 00:42:08.199
that conference was named Jonathan Dickinson,

00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:14.179
a fellow Canadian. I met a guy named Gareth at

00:42:14.179 --> 00:42:16.860
the conference. Gareth became my first business

00:42:16.860 --> 00:42:20.860
partner. Gareth had been to Mexico, had apprenticed

00:42:20.860 --> 00:42:22.980
with people, knew what he was doing with medicine,

00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.619
really wanted to provide it in Canada. And it

00:42:26.619 --> 00:42:28.860
was legal to provide it in Canada at the time.

00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:31.960
It was listed as a natural health product, which

00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.969
meant... There were some gray areas we were skirting

00:42:35.969 --> 00:42:39.489
on the importation of it, but ultimately it was

00:42:39.489 --> 00:42:42.349
legal to work with in Canada. So we came together,

00:42:42.469 --> 00:42:45.530
we set up my first business, Liberty Root Therapy

00:42:45.530 --> 00:42:48.789
Limited, in 2012, shortly after that conference.

00:42:49.389 --> 00:42:52.110
Basically, this guy said, I really want to work

00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:54.210
with it. I said, well, my phone's still ringing.

00:42:54.289 --> 00:42:56.510
The next time the phone rings, let's see what

00:42:56.510 --> 00:42:59.130
we can do to help them out. The next time the

00:42:59.130 --> 00:43:02.110
phone rang, it was... a father calling on behalf

00:43:02.110 --> 00:43:05.949
of his two sons, 28 -year -old son, 30 -year

00:43:05.949 --> 00:43:09.309
-old son, and the 28 -year -old's girlfriend,

00:43:09.730 --> 00:43:12.989
all heroin users. And we treated them over the

00:43:12.989 --> 00:43:15.429
course of a couple of weekends. It went really

00:43:15.429 --> 00:43:17.929
well. We said there's obviously a need for this

00:43:17.929 --> 00:43:23.489
in Vancouver. So my wife at the time was still

00:43:23.489 --> 00:43:25.429
working on cruise ships. She was leaving for

00:43:25.429 --> 00:43:27.969
six months at a time. I said, let's get out of

00:43:27.969 --> 00:43:31.510
Vancouver, out of the downtown core. And we moved

00:43:31.510 --> 00:43:34.590
to White Rock about an hour south of there and

00:43:34.590 --> 00:43:37.690
found a really nice townhome to work out of,

00:43:37.690 --> 00:43:41.050
a new condo townhome, three bedroom. We used

00:43:41.050 --> 00:43:43.769
the master bedroom as the treatment room. We

00:43:43.769 --> 00:43:46.789
each took a bedroom and we just started treating

00:43:46.789 --> 00:43:51.690
people. We treated one person at a time, seven

00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:55.550
days at a time to start, mostly for opioid use

00:43:55.550 --> 00:43:59.500
disorder. We had Gabor Mate introduced us to

00:43:59.500 --> 00:44:03.219
the physician we worked with, Caroline Ferris,

00:44:03.219 --> 00:44:06.659
for a number of years. She would prescribe anything

00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:10.139
that we needed. So with Ibogaine, if somebody's

00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.440
using opiates, you don't want to just rush into

00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:14.800
Ibogaine. So you need something to stabilize

00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:17.940
them on. So they might come in using heroin.

00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:23.840
Then we give them morphine for a few days, stabilize

00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:25.840
them on the morphine that the doctor prescribed,

00:44:26.219 --> 00:44:30.260
and then we go in with Ibogaine. And yeah, we

00:44:30.260 --> 00:44:33.059
did about 75 people in two years through that

00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:36.179
first house and then graduated to a larger house

00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:38.340
where we could take up to three people at a time.

00:44:38.420 --> 00:44:42.019
We also realized we learned a lot along the way,

00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:46.260
obviously. We learned that seven days is too

00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:48.820
short. We would bring people in for 10 -day programs.

00:44:49.579 --> 00:44:53.099
We were nowhere near as medicalized as we are

00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:57.059
now, but I would bring in a nurse. A nurse friend

00:44:57.059 --> 00:44:59.380
of mine would come in for the actual Ibogaine

00:44:59.380 --> 00:45:02.900
treatment itself. He would analyze EKGs and things

00:45:02.900 --> 00:45:07.099
like that. Yeah, so then we did three people

00:45:07.099 --> 00:45:10.119
at a time for another couple of years. It brought

00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:12.860
us up to, we treated about 200 people in the

00:45:12.860 --> 00:45:15.000
five years that we were legally operating in

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:18.519
Canada. And then in 2017, Health Canada changed

00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:21.699
the regulatory status of Ibogaine. They realized

00:45:21.699 --> 00:45:24.960
it was misclassified. A natural health product

00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.039
is something that is like vitamin C or some kind

00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:30.980
of a supplement, available over the counter,

00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:34.219
not dangerous. Whereas Ibogaine is potentially

00:45:34.219 --> 00:45:37.280
dangerous, they realized the misclassification.

00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.039
Kudos to them. They could have just outlawed

00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:42.019
it. They didn't. Instead, they put it on the

00:45:42.019 --> 00:45:44.860
prescription drug list. So it's on the prescription

00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:46.900
drug list, but because it hasn't gone through

00:45:46.900 --> 00:45:49.780
clinical trials, it's still not available as

00:45:49.780 --> 00:45:52.559
a prescription. So it's in this no -go zone in

00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.960
Canada. But at least because it's not illegal,

00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:58.840
we can research it without too much fanfare,

00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:01.059
like we're working with Dalhousie University.

00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:04.780
in canada right now doing some research on ibogaine

00:46:04.780 --> 00:46:07.940
for ms so you know they didn't have to jump through

00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:12.139
the red tape of working with a a medicine that's

00:46:12.139 --> 00:46:17.099
outlawed unlike the states currently now if i've

00:46:17.099 --> 00:46:18.800
got my facts correct i might not have it the

00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:23.159
iboga plant is in africa originally yeah so it

00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:26.659
is a plant that has been used ceremonially for

00:46:26.659 --> 00:46:30.750
centuries in countries like gabon and Cameroon

00:46:30.750 --> 00:46:35.590
in West Africa. The plant is called Tabernanthia

00:46:35.590 --> 00:46:38.570
boga. And if you were to use it in the jungle,

00:46:38.670 --> 00:46:41.349
it's the second layer of root bark on this plant.

00:46:41.630 --> 00:46:44.409
And they peel it off and you have to eat copious

00:46:44.409 --> 00:46:47.150
amounts of it. And they've been using it for

00:46:47.150 --> 00:46:52.429
initiation, for healing, for studying life. The

00:46:52.429 --> 00:46:54.949
tradition that grew out of the use of this medicine

00:46:54.949 --> 00:46:57.900
is called the Bwidi tradition. and they would

00:46:57.900 --> 00:47:02.000
tell you that the weedy means study of life so

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.679
that's what they use it for there and then you

00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:08.199
can extract there's a dozen or so alkaloids in

00:47:08.199 --> 00:47:10.059
that plant and you can extract the individual

00:47:10.059 --> 00:47:13.239
alkaloids ibogaine is one of those alkaloids

00:47:13.239 --> 00:47:17.960
and in the early 1960s a gentleman by the name

00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:21.300
of howard lotsoff he was a 19 year old in new

00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:25.599
york city dependent on heroin But he was meeting

00:47:25.599 --> 00:47:29.099
with a chemist buddy of his, and this chemist

00:47:29.099 --> 00:47:31.820
buddy pulled this stuff out of his freezer. We

00:47:31.820 --> 00:47:34.340
have no idea where he got it, but he said he

00:47:34.340 --> 00:47:36.179
might find this interesting. This stuff's called

00:47:36.179 --> 00:47:38.760
ibogaine. He should give it a go. He knew Howard

00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.219
was interested in different substances. So Howard

00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:45.719
one day tried ibogaine, and he went on this intense

00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:49.039
journey. It is long. Like I say, it's about 24

00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:52.300
to 36 hours. He had no idea what he was getting

00:47:52.300 --> 00:47:55.349
into. He came out the other end. He said, wow,

00:47:55.570 --> 00:47:58.789
I'm never doing that again. But he said he stepped

00:47:58.789 --> 00:48:05.449
outside and he felt this incredible peace that

00:48:05.449 --> 00:48:08.070
he had never felt before. He's trying to put

00:48:08.070 --> 00:48:10.590
his finger on how do I feel? And it's like, I'm

00:48:10.590 --> 00:48:13.570
at peace. That's when he realized, wait a second.

00:48:13.690 --> 00:48:16.710
I haven't wanted heroin the whole time I've been

00:48:16.710 --> 00:48:20.570
on this, nor do I want it now. So that's when

00:48:20.570 --> 00:48:22.789
its anti -addictive properties were discovered.

00:48:23.449 --> 00:48:26.690
And thankfully, Howard over the years became

00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:30.570
a big champion for what he had discovered and

00:48:30.570 --> 00:48:32.849
knocked on a lot of doors, got some people to

00:48:32.849 --> 00:48:36.190
pay attention. And then in the kind of early,

00:48:36.289 --> 00:48:39.969
late 80s, maybe early 90s, some Ibogaine clinics

00:48:39.969 --> 00:48:42.750
started popping up around the world in places

00:48:42.750 --> 00:48:44.650
where it was legal to do that. And there was

00:48:44.650 --> 00:48:47.230
definitely some underground work happening in

00:48:47.230 --> 00:48:55.289
the States as well. you know, the sweeping psychedelics

00:48:55.289 --> 00:48:58.849
act happened, anything that was deemed psychedelic

00:48:58.849 --> 00:49:01.889
was made illegal. I think it's interesting to

00:49:01.889 --> 00:49:07.429
note that before that, before the late 60s, early

00:49:07.429 --> 00:49:12.349
70s, psychedelics were always looked upon as

00:49:12.349 --> 00:49:16.190
pro -social, whether it's indigenous communities

00:49:16.190 --> 00:49:19.090
using them to heal individuals or the community.

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:23.480
Even Western culture had the Mysteries of Eleusis

00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:27.400
out of Greek culture. It was a 2 ,000 -year -old

00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:29.860
tradition. It was considered the most important

00:49:29.860 --> 00:49:33.059
aspect of Greek culture. But it was kind of like

00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:35.260
Fight Club. You couldn't write about it. You

00:49:35.260 --> 00:49:37.559
couldn't talk about it. But every citizen had

00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:40.500
to go through it. And we now know that the kykeon,

00:49:40.699 --> 00:49:43.159
the potion that was drank at the Mysteries of

00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:48.300
Eleusis, contained an LSD -type substance in

00:49:48.300 --> 00:49:52.449
it. So my theory is that the Greeks who created

00:49:52.449 --> 00:49:54.730
a lot of the structures that we know and love,

00:49:54.769 --> 00:49:58.690
whether it's our way of governing, our seeds

00:49:58.690 --> 00:50:01.929
of our democracy, the way we educate, I don't

00:50:01.929 --> 00:50:04.710
think they ever intended those structures to

00:50:04.710 --> 00:50:07.050
be separated from the psychedelic experience.

00:50:08.250 --> 00:50:12.670
Psychedelic means mind or soul manifesting. So

00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:14.789
the word has a lot of baggage, but I think it's

00:50:14.789 --> 00:50:18.260
actually the correct. term to use because at

00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:20.699
least what's happening with these substances

00:50:20.699 --> 00:50:23.940
are a different level of mind is being presented

00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:28.480
but um yeah in 1972 psychedelics were made illegal

00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:32.179
in the states so it's not available legally in

00:50:32.179 --> 00:50:35.019
the united states but there there was an interesting

00:50:35.019 --> 00:50:37.480
thing that happened an interesting loophole kind

00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:42.099
of that we're operating from is the un also has

00:50:42.099 --> 00:50:46.940
treaties making most drugs illegal across the

00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:51.440
world thankfully ibogaine never got put on that

00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:55.980
list so each country kind of gets to decide where

00:50:55.980 --> 00:50:59.840
ibogaine stands in mexico where we're operating

00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:03.400
right now it's just unregulated it's not on any

00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:07.300
list it's not completely legal it's not completely

00:51:07.300 --> 00:51:11.480
illegal it's just not on any list so We operate

00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:14.280
down here as a licensed mental health and addiction

00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:17.920
facility. And Ibogaine just happens to be a certain

00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:21.059
thing that we use in the process. So how did

00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:23.099
you find yourself moving to Mexico and opening

00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:27.409
the facility? Yeah, so in 2017, Health Canada

00:51:27.409 --> 00:51:29.989
changed the regulatory status of Ibogaine. It

00:51:29.989 --> 00:51:32.550
was good timing for me. I feel like the universe

00:51:32.550 --> 00:51:36.429
really had my back. In April of 2017, I decided

00:51:36.429 --> 00:51:39.829
I needed a break anyway, so I shut down the operation.

00:51:40.210 --> 00:51:45.050
I wasn't paying $5 ,000 per month rent come May

00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:48.530
once the memo came out from Health Canada. I

00:51:48.530 --> 00:51:50.250
also found it interesting that Health Canada,

00:51:50.389 --> 00:51:53.639
you know, I had been in touch with them. So I

00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:56.420
don't know if any other providers had, but they

00:51:56.420 --> 00:51:58.599
changed the regulatory status, but then they

00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:01.360
didn't reach out to tell us it was changed. I

00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:04.440
happened to have a friend who caught the news

00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:07.420
release. It wasn't even a news release. It was

00:52:07.420 --> 00:52:11.320
just a post on a website. Anyway, after that

00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:15.340
happened, I continued to be active in the psychedelic

00:52:15.340 --> 00:52:18.119
community in Vancouver, of which there is a rich

00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:23.269
one. I was the chair of the board of directors

00:52:23.269 --> 00:52:26.329
for MAPS Canada. So I was invited to be on the

00:52:26.329 --> 00:52:28.829
board and a couple months later to be chair of

00:52:28.829 --> 00:52:31.969
the board for MAPS Canada. MAPS is the Multidisciplinary

00:52:31.969 --> 00:52:35.329
Association for Psychedelic Studies started by

00:52:35.329 --> 00:52:39.400
Rick Doblin. in the States in the early 1980s.

00:52:39.420 --> 00:52:43.079
And he's done a lot to really promote psychedelics

00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:47.320
as therapeutics. And Rick sat on the board for

00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:49.559
Maps Canada as well, which was just a little

00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:54.360
tiny branch of Maps. And during that time, I

00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:56.860
also co -founded the Canadian Psychedelic Association,

00:52:57.380 --> 00:53:02.659
which is still a prominent force in Canada. But

00:53:02.659 --> 00:53:06.889
through... I got a call one day from Rick Doblin.

00:53:07.010 --> 00:53:10.130
And when Rick calls, you answer. So I picked

00:53:10.130 --> 00:53:13.010
up the phone and he said, I have this lovely

00:53:13.010 --> 00:53:16.449
couple in my living room, Amber and Marcus Capone.

00:53:16.989 --> 00:53:19.989
Marcus is a former Navy SEAL. They've started

00:53:19.989 --> 00:53:23.429
a nonprofit sending special forces veterans for

00:53:23.429 --> 00:53:25.869
Ibogaine treatment. You guys should know each

00:53:25.869 --> 00:53:31.090
other. So I took that call, had a great chat

00:53:31.090 --> 00:53:34.599
with them. there. And then from that point forward,

00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:38.980
Amber was very diligent in calling me every month

00:53:38.980 --> 00:53:41.119
to two months to see if there might be a way

00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.539
for us to work together. I thought, and the conversation

00:53:44.539 --> 00:53:47.780
started with just looking at different ways that

00:53:47.780 --> 00:53:50.539
we might be able to do something in Canada. They

00:53:50.539 --> 00:53:52.820
would have preferred to have sent their vets

00:53:52.820 --> 00:53:57.380
to Canada rather than Mexico. But the regulatory

00:53:57.380 --> 00:54:00.659
status had just been changed. It basically would

00:54:00.659 --> 00:54:03.739
boil down to needing to do a clinical trial,

00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:07.639
which would have been super expensive. So I just

00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:09.219
thought, you know, there's no way I'm going to

00:54:09.219 --> 00:54:11.579
work with these folks in Canada. But then I had

00:54:11.579 --> 00:54:15.639
a phone call with them in, would have been December

00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:19.880
of 2020. And there was just something Amber said

00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:23.940
on this call where I realized, oh, it's not Canada

00:54:23.940 --> 00:54:26.539
they want. I think they're just looking to work

00:54:26.539 --> 00:54:30.000
with me. So I hung up the phone. I spoke to my

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:32.900
lady, Brianna. I'm like, I think that I'm going

00:54:32.900 --> 00:54:35.199
to call her back. So I called Amber back. I'm

00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:37.139
like, is it just me you're looking to work with?

00:54:37.219 --> 00:54:40.219
It doesn't matter where? She's like, yes. I'm

00:54:40.219 --> 00:54:42.639
like, okay, cool. Let me see if I can find a

00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:45.519
place to work. So we had already, Brianna and

00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:48.059
I had already planned on going to Costa Rica

00:54:48.059 --> 00:54:52.820
in 2021. We wanted to escape the COVID mayhem.

00:54:54.889 --> 00:54:57.610
We spent some time while we were in Costa Rica.

00:54:57.710 --> 00:55:01.409
I was also at the time the chief psychedelic

00:55:01.409 --> 00:55:04.769
officer for a publicly traded company called

00:55:04.769 --> 00:55:08.469
Neon Mind. So that kind of was floating the boat

00:55:08.469 --> 00:55:11.710
at that point. But I was in Costa Rica looking

00:55:11.710 --> 00:55:14.750
at how to set up there. I realized there were

00:55:14.750 --> 00:55:17.429
a lot of barriers to me setting up there. I didn't

00:55:17.429 --> 00:55:19.289
have a network. I didn't speak the language.

00:55:19.630 --> 00:55:23.179
But while I was there. I was speaking to Jonathan

00:55:23.179 --> 00:55:25.920
Dickinson, who I mentioned ran that first Ibogaine

00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:29.420
conference. And he asked me to be on the board

00:55:29.420 --> 00:55:31.780
of directors of another nonprofit he was starting.

00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:35.579
And we were talking about that. And I just happened

00:55:35.579 --> 00:55:38.119
to mention this veterans group that was keen

00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:40.960
to work with me. And he called me back a week

00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:44.800
later with a guy named Jose Inzunza in the car

00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:47.719
with them, with him. They were both in Tijuana.

00:55:48.340 --> 00:55:50.500
Jonathan had been in Tijuana for a number of

00:55:50.500 --> 00:55:54.659
years. Jose is a paramedic. He had a clinic providing

00:55:54.659 --> 00:55:58.679
ibogaine in Tijuana to people mostly for opioid

00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:02.099
use disorder. And they called me and said, hey,

00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.340
man, why don't you move to Tijuana? We've got

00:56:04.340 --> 00:56:06.619
all the medical equipment required. We've got

00:56:06.619 --> 00:56:09.000
all the medical staff that understands the medicine.

00:56:09.320 --> 00:56:13.199
We can find a house dedicated to veterans. And

00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:17.300
I checked with Brianna. I said, Tijuana? She

00:56:17.300 --> 00:56:19.809
said, whatever it takes for the medicine. we

00:56:19.809 --> 00:56:22.269
went back to canada for a few months got things

00:56:22.269 --> 00:56:25.869
settled there and then moved down here in july

00:56:25.869 --> 00:56:30.750
of 2021 which again was just a nightmare the

00:56:30.750 --> 00:56:35.630
insanity of covid um i just wanted to drive my

00:56:35.630 --> 00:56:38.250
truck down and bring all my stuff so i'm not

00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:42.610
doing that probably in june and we got turned

00:56:42.610 --> 00:56:45.809
around and said no essential services only so

00:56:45.809 --> 00:56:49.780
the next time i hit the border it was uh with

00:56:49.780 --> 00:56:54.940
a letter from Navy SEALs saying essential service.

00:56:55.300 --> 00:56:58.079
At least this time they pulled us in for an hour

00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.900
before turning us around. So you couldn't cross

00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:03.679
the land border unless you were an essential

00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:07.619
service. But we drove back to Vancouver, packed

00:57:07.619 --> 00:57:10.940
our stuff a different way, and flew in the next

00:57:10.940 --> 00:57:15.960
day. So flew to San Diego. insanity of that you

00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:18.679
couldn't drive when you could fly so flew into

00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:21.920
san diego walked across the border to tijuana

00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:25.360
jonathan picked us up that was a saturday we

00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:30.000
got to tj sunday i bought a car at this used

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.880
car market for a couple of grand monday we welcomed

00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:37.000
our first group of veterans from vets incorporated

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:43.360
into the uh detox house that jose had and we

00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:46.139
treated our first two groups through that house

00:57:46.139 --> 00:57:49.059
and in that time we found the house which we

00:57:49.059 --> 00:57:51.840
still have which you'll see if you watch a movie

00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:54.820
coming on netflix november 3rd called in waves

00:57:54.820 --> 00:57:59.239
and war that'll be the the house that we picked

00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:06.739
up then so yeah it's been a while well i've had

00:58:06.739 --> 00:58:09.579
so many people on the show that have gone through

00:58:09.579 --> 00:58:12.090
vets and i never thought eight years ago that

00:58:12.090 --> 00:58:15.889
I'd know so many Navy SEALs, but I do now. Welcome

00:58:15.889 --> 00:58:19.309
to my world. Exactly. It's crazy. But this is

00:58:19.309 --> 00:58:22.429
what's brought us together. The parallels in

00:58:22.429 --> 00:58:24.590
uniform, whether it's the service and the PTSD

00:58:24.590 --> 00:58:26.010
and all these other things, or whether it's the

00:58:26.010 --> 00:58:27.969
addiction or whether it's the healing modalities

00:58:27.969 --> 00:58:31.969
and breath work and all these other areas. But

00:58:31.969 --> 00:58:35.079
when it comes to Ibogaine specifically, A huge

00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:37.420
takeaway is obviously that addiction piece. And

00:58:37.420 --> 00:58:40.920
what I hear not only is opioids, but also alcoholism

00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:43.260
as well, which is rife in my profession and other

00:58:43.260 --> 00:58:46.280
first responder professions. So talk to me about

00:58:46.280 --> 00:58:48.800
that. You kind of were initially going in with

00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:51.380
a strong experience of opioids. What were you

00:58:51.380 --> 00:58:54.360
seeing as far as other addictions and health

00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:56.980
issues that you started seeing resolved through

00:58:56.980 --> 00:59:00.039
this practice? Yeah. Yeah. It's just a profound

00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:04.670
negative pattern interrupter. Whatever you've

00:59:04.670 --> 00:59:08.309
got going on, if you go into Ibogaine with the

00:59:08.309 --> 00:59:12.489
intent to interrupt that negative pattern, Ibogaine

00:59:12.489 --> 00:59:15.070
seems to be able to give you the leg up on doing

00:59:15.070 --> 00:59:18.590
that. Alcohol, absolutely. I stopped drinking

00:59:18.590 --> 00:59:21.889
alcohol because of an Ibogaine journey. I had

00:59:21.889 --> 00:59:25.090
a journey probably eight or nine years ago now.

00:59:25.449 --> 00:59:28.989
All this stuff came up around my drinking. I

00:59:28.989 --> 00:59:33.440
had no intent or desire to stop drinking. I drank

00:59:33.440 --> 00:59:36.460
a lot, but so did everybody else I know. It was

00:59:36.460 --> 00:59:40.579
the culture, especially in a place like cruise

00:59:40.579 --> 00:59:43.199
ships or the military or the fire department.

00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:46.940
What do you do? You go out for a drink after

00:59:46.940 --> 00:59:53.699
your shift. The world at large never told me

00:59:53.699 --> 00:59:56.440
I had a drinking problem, but something within

00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.079
me knew that it wasn't right. And, you know,

00:59:59.099 --> 01:00:01.360
I have spiritual beliefs as well. And I felt

01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:03.500
as though the way I was drinking wasn't aligned

01:00:03.500 --> 01:00:06.860
with my spiritual beliefs. And this one Ibogaine

01:00:06.860 --> 01:00:09.059
journey, all this stuff came up around my drinking.

01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:14.500
My grandfather, who's deceased, died when I was

01:00:14.500 --> 01:00:18.159
in grade four, but he's a World War II vet. And

01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:20.360
he came to me in the journey and said, Trevor,

01:00:20.440 --> 01:00:24.400
you need to stop drinking for my lineage, which

01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:28.900
was pretty powerful. Then it was a guided journey.

01:00:29.219 --> 01:00:32.820
And the guy I was working with that was guiding

01:00:32.820 --> 01:00:36.239
me, he had me fly into my front yard. He said,

01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:39.460
is there a tree there? There was. And it was

01:00:39.460 --> 01:00:41.400
a cherry tree. And it was the time of year that

01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:44.800
it was flowering. So it was this big. pink cherry

01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:47.639
tree. And he said, give that tree a hug. So I

01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:50.820
gave the tree a hug. And then he told me to ask

01:00:50.820 --> 01:00:56.440
the tree a question about, oh no, the first question

01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:59.239
was to ask the tree what the purpose of life

01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:02.940
is. I asked the tree and the tree said to flower,

01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:07.059
which was just a perfect answer from a flowery

01:01:07.059 --> 01:01:12.090
tree. And then the Next question was around negative

01:01:12.090 --> 01:01:14.889
tendencies and how to get rid of them in your

01:01:14.889 --> 01:01:18.530
life. And I asked the question and the tree said,

01:01:18.690 --> 01:01:23.829
stop watering your weeds. And again, that spoke

01:01:23.829 --> 01:01:26.829
to me about alcohol. I wasn't necessarily hung

01:01:26.829 --> 01:01:29.809
over after the bottle of wine, but I was definitely

01:01:29.809 --> 01:01:33.989
watering my depression, watering my procrastination.

01:01:35.130 --> 01:01:38.030
And I spoke to Mark the next morning, the guy

01:01:38.030 --> 01:01:40.050
that gave me the medicine. I said, all this stuff

01:01:40.050 --> 01:01:43.269
came up around my drinking. He had quit drinking.

01:01:43.369 --> 01:01:45.889
That's why he came to Iboga in the first place

01:01:45.889 --> 01:01:49.010
years ago. And he said, you know, there's an

01:01:49.010 --> 01:01:53.610
argument to be made because of the nature of

01:01:53.610 --> 01:01:55.730
the work that we've chosen that we need to hold

01:01:55.730 --> 01:01:58.210
ourselves to a certain standard. So I agreed

01:01:58.210 --> 01:02:00.630
with that. I said, okay, maybe I'll try and stop

01:02:00.630 --> 01:02:05.099
drinking. So went home, went to bed. Actually,

01:02:05.099 --> 01:02:08.239
on the way home, I had an urge to go and drink.

01:02:08.900 --> 01:02:11.820
Just out of habit, I had a bar I went to. There

01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:14.199
were nice girls working behind the bar. Felt

01:02:14.199 --> 01:02:16.960
like doing that. And thankfully, I called Mark.

01:02:17.260 --> 01:02:19.260
He said, well, you don't have to stop forever,

01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:21.659
but maybe at least while this medicine's in your

01:02:21.659 --> 01:02:24.320
system, give it a break. I agreed with him. I

01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.679
went home. I went to bed. I woke up the next

01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:29.619
morning. All desire to drink was completely gone.

01:02:31.659 --> 01:02:34.300
That's been amazing not having that in my life.

01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:36.460
And we see it again and again. So many people

01:02:36.460 --> 01:02:40.260
come for alcohol. The thing with alcohol and

01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:43.019
Ibogaine is you need to be able to stop for at

01:02:43.019 --> 01:02:46.460
least a week prior to arrival because alcohol

01:02:46.460 --> 01:02:49.780
detox can be extremely dangerous. So you can't

01:02:49.780 --> 01:02:53.280
be in any kind of detox type situation. So if

01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:55.539
you're here to stop drinking, you need to be

01:02:55.539 --> 01:02:58.639
able to safely stop for at least 10 days, seven

01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:02.219
to 10 days prior to arrival. you know i think

01:03:02.219 --> 01:03:05.480
you've spoken to angela scuden from the 343 fund

01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:10.039
and uh it's a non -profit that sends first responders

01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:13.079
down here for this treatment and just as you

01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:15.780
know 45 minutes before we hopped on this i said

01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:18.679
remind me of some uh some good firefighters stories

01:03:18.679 --> 01:03:20.900
guys that have been through and every single

01:03:20.900 --> 01:03:22.980
one she brought up is guys who have been able

01:03:22.980 --> 01:03:26.320
to stop drinking some guy who had been to rehab

01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:30.079
seven times another guy who had been to you know

01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:33.429
the this brain center for excellence nothing

01:03:33.429 --> 01:03:35.949
was working nothing worked again and again and

01:03:35.949 --> 01:03:39.110
again and one dose of ibogaine plus some integration

01:03:39.110 --> 01:03:42.429
coaching and you know really wanting to change

01:03:42.429 --> 01:03:47.010
and uh yeah you're really able to to make it

01:03:47.010 --> 01:03:51.489
happen i always say that ibogaine gives you the

01:03:51.489 --> 01:03:55.789
superpower of saying no to the first drink It

01:03:55.789 --> 01:03:58.570
makes it really easy to say no to that first

01:03:58.570 --> 01:04:01.349
drink. And you can say no to that first drink

01:04:01.349 --> 01:04:04.429
into perpetuity. But if you say yes to that first

01:04:04.429 --> 01:04:06.530
drink, there's probably going to be a second.

01:04:06.650 --> 01:04:08.409
Maybe you don't wait a couple of months before

01:04:08.409 --> 01:04:11.070
it comes, but you've kind of opened up that gateway

01:04:11.070 --> 01:04:13.610
and then the third comes super quick after the

01:04:13.610 --> 01:04:18.570
second for sure. I had Dan Cirillo on the show

01:04:18.570 --> 01:04:20.789
and sadly he passed away a little while ago,

01:04:20.869 --> 01:04:23.829
but Navy SEAL, you know. Very, very powerful.

01:04:23.929 --> 01:04:26.070
Again, like so many people in uniform, it's a

01:04:26.070 --> 01:04:28.610
lot of the childhood trauma that's powerful too.

01:04:28.710 --> 01:04:31.050
That's really kind of the, you know, the pee

01:04:31.050 --> 01:04:34.849
beneath the mattress, if you like. But alcoholism

01:04:34.849 --> 01:04:36.429
is definitely his. I can't remember if he had

01:04:36.429 --> 01:04:39.210
opioids as well, but he literally went in as

01:04:39.210 --> 01:04:42.489
an alcoholic and left not touching a drop. And

01:04:42.489 --> 01:04:44.429
I'd hear that story over and over again. But

01:04:44.429 --> 01:04:47.909
many times I also heard people that were literally

01:04:47.909 --> 01:04:50.309
on their last straw. Like, you know, if this

01:04:50.309 --> 01:04:53.349
doesn't work, then. I'm done. I'm going to take

01:04:53.349 --> 01:04:56.190
my own life. So whether it was fire, you know,

01:04:56.190 --> 01:05:00.050
Navy SEALs, what are some of the success stories

01:05:00.050 --> 01:05:01.909
that really struck you? What are some of the,

01:05:01.909 --> 01:05:04.030
you know, arguably the most powerful success

01:05:04.030 --> 01:05:05.849
stories that you've seen over the last few years?

01:05:06.710 --> 01:05:10.929
Yeah, just the mention of suicide. For some reason,

01:05:11.010 --> 01:05:13.670
as a young man, as I was trying to figure out

01:05:13.670 --> 01:05:16.030
what to do with my life, there was just nothing

01:05:16.030 --> 01:05:19.380
that broke my heart. more than the idea of suicide

01:05:19.380 --> 01:05:21.719
so i'm like if there's any way i can have an

01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:25.519
impact on that please please let me have an impact

01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:29.599
and uh to have to have found ibogaine and hear

01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:34.940
the stories um one of them is uh a guy mikey

01:05:34.940 --> 01:05:38.260
mckim he's been public with his story he's uh

01:05:38.260 --> 01:05:41.059
a vets grant recipient you can find his story

01:05:41.059 --> 01:05:44.619
on their website i'm sure their youtube channel

01:05:44.619 --> 01:05:50.449
but he was driving to the beach, which was three

01:05:50.449 --> 01:05:55.449
hours away, to take his own life. Right before

01:05:55.449 --> 01:06:00.070
he left for that drive, a friend reached out

01:06:00.070 --> 01:06:03.170
to him and said, hey, you should listen to this.

01:06:03.329 --> 01:06:07.190
And it was episode 30 of the Sean Ryan show,

01:06:07.389 --> 01:06:11.250
the episode that I was on. And he listened to

01:06:11.250 --> 01:06:14.860
that. two and a half hour podcast. He got to

01:06:14.860 --> 01:06:17.539
the beach. He decided I'm going to try this instead.

01:06:18.139 --> 01:06:21.079
He came, he had Ibogaine. It changed everything.

01:06:21.320 --> 01:06:24.940
He has now worked with us a number of times.

01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:29.440
He's a public spokesperson for, uh, bets. He

01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:32.760
has learned, um, I think it's the heart math

01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:36.239
solution. So he's done training in this somatic

01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:39.550
technique on how to ground yourself. and get

01:06:39.550 --> 01:06:41.769
kind of get the wisdom from the body. So just,

01:06:41.889 --> 01:06:44.989
you know, a complete 180 from a guy like that.

01:06:45.110 --> 01:06:48.190
The other one, this guy was actually here the

01:06:48.190 --> 01:06:54.590
exact same week as Mikey, but he, the group left

01:06:54.590 --> 01:06:59.409
and he was just really in dire straits. He, he

01:06:59.409 --> 01:07:05.329
was a firefighter actually. And he had basically

01:07:05.329 --> 01:07:10.480
lost, he was a veteran as well, but You know,

01:07:10.480 --> 01:07:13.559
he lost all his friends while serving in the

01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:17.519
military. His best friend had died of an opioid

01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:23.320
overdose the week before arriving. And he was

01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:26.179
desperate, like so many people. Either this works

01:07:26.179 --> 01:07:29.460
or I'm going to go eat a bullet. They all left

01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:33.360
on the Saturday morning they would have left

01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:37.150
on. and uh the housekeeper came downstairs with

01:07:37.150 --> 01:07:39.429
i'm sitting there with my medical manager the

01:07:39.429 --> 01:07:41.449
housekeeper came downstairs with a few things

01:07:41.449 --> 01:07:45.429
and one of them was a bullet and i'm like where

01:07:45.429 --> 01:07:47.230
did this come from and she showed me his name

01:07:47.230 --> 01:07:50.769
plate the paper name plate i messaged him and

01:07:50.769 --> 01:07:53.829
i said hey dude is this what i think it is he

01:07:53.829 --> 01:07:59.300
said yeah i won't be needing it anymore and Just

01:07:59.300 --> 01:08:02.139
again and again and again, stories like that.

01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:03.960
We treated, people always ask me, what's the

01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:07.400
youngest you've treated? The youngest I've treated

01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:10.880
is a guy who walked in the front door on his

01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:14.960
18th birthday. He was the son of a guy that we

01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:20.210
had treated and he was depressed, suicidal. came

01:08:20.210 --> 01:08:23.750
in for treatment. It went incredible. He went

01:08:23.750 --> 01:08:26.350
home. He messaged us all saying that he'd just

01:08:26.350 --> 01:08:29.750
burnt his suicide note. He won't be needing it

01:08:29.750 --> 01:08:35.850
anymore. So, yeah, it's wild, man. I feel incredibly

01:08:35.850 --> 01:08:38.729
blessed to have been put on a pathway that has

01:08:38.729 --> 01:08:43.560
such a profound effect on people. And again,

01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:47.760
I don't take claim for any of it. I feel as though

01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:51.300
as the start of the story kind of implied, I

01:08:51.300 --> 01:08:53.760
feel like I'm a pretty good hotel manager, a

01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.520
pretty good hospitality manager. I can, you know,

01:08:57.539 --> 01:08:59.859
I can set up a really nice space for people to

01:08:59.859 --> 01:09:02.560
come. And then I feel as though this medicine,

01:09:02.619 --> 01:09:05.699
but more than the medicine, it's the person themselves.

01:09:06.460 --> 01:09:10.119
they do all the heavy lifting. I'm allergic to

01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:12.380
somebody saying, you saved my life. I'm like,

01:09:12.439 --> 01:09:16.819
no, man, you saved your own life. You did all

01:09:16.819 --> 01:09:20.000
the heavy lifting on that. So I don't need much

01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:23.159
credit. I'll take credit as a good hospitality

01:09:23.159 --> 01:09:28.560
manager. It is amazing to hear though. Even when

01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:30.520
you had your experience and you had your World

01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:34.180
War II veteran grandfather come to you, I think

01:09:34.180 --> 01:09:36.720
this is something that... really needs to be

01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:39.500
discussed now, but also as you're talking about,

01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:41.399
whether it's plant medicine and integration or

01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:44.380
some of these other tools, that is an amazing

01:09:44.380 --> 01:09:47.840
way of stopping the hurting, but also identifying

01:09:47.840 --> 01:09:50.640
the generational trauma that exists with so many

01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:55.220
people. We had a world war 80 years ago, and

01:09:55.220 --> 01:09:58.500
most of our ancestors were fighting in that war.

01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:00.840
And you're telling me they just came home and

01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:02.939
everything was fine? No, of course not. You know,

01:10:02.939 --> 01:10:05.439
the dominoes kept falling. So the combination

01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:07.979
of really giving yourself grace and understanding

01:10:07.979 --> 01:10:10.739
that what you, you know, what you experienced,

01:10:10.859 --> 01:10:12.680
what your parents experienced, this all factors

01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:15.000
into part of this equation, but then knowing

01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:18.180
that there are these tools to stop that domino

01:10:18.180 --> 01:10:20.880
from falling and then heal. So it doesn't then

01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:23.199
go to your children and your grandchildren. I

01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:25.239
think you put those together and you really have

01:10:25.239 --> 01:10:28.520
a healing superpower then. Yeah. Yeah. It's my,

01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:33.250
my grandfather. i was always told growing up

01:10:33.250 --> 01:10:36.670
that he didn't see much action and then that

01:10:36.670 --> 01:10:41.229
was corrected and he saw tons of action um and

01:10:41.229 --> 01:10:45.550
he came back from the war didn't know what that

01:10:45.550 --> 01:10:50.970
was spent the rest of his life going from legion

01:10:50.970 --> 01:10:54.109
to legion royal canadian legion or whatever legion

01:10:54.109 --> 01:10:56.689
in whatever country he was visiting and just

01:10:56.689 --> 01:10:58.770
would connect with veterans and those were the

01:10:58.770 --> 01:11:01.930
only guys he would talk to about it but he self

01:11:01.930 --> 01:11:05.210
-medicated with a case of beer a night a two

01:11:05.210 --> 01:11:14.550
-four beer and that actually led to me led to

01:11:14.550 --> 01:11:20.319
me not i don't know It did various things. My

01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:24.319
mother, that seriously impacted my mother. My

01:11:24.319 --> 01:11:28.399
grandpa wasn't a horrible drunk. He was relatively

01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:31.180
friendly, but him drinking a case of beer a night

01:11:31.180 --> 01:11:35.520
really impacted her. So when I grew up, I heard

01:11:35.520 --> 01:11:38.260
all the time, don't do that, you'll get addicted.

01:11:38.500 --> 01:11:42.000
Don't do that, you'll get addicted. And on one

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:45.729
hand, that really made me conscious. when I did

01:11:45.729 --> 01:11:48.229
start experimenting. On the other hand, it made

01:11:48.229 --> 01:11:51.550
me super curious, like, what is this forbidden

01:11:51.550 --> 01:11:54.810
fruit addiction that I'm not supposed to experience?

01:11:55.229 --> 01:11:59.689
So I think that, you know, the lack of severe

01:11:59.689 --> 01:12:03.810
trauma in my life, plus my mother really drilling

01:12:03.810 --> 01:12:07.949
that into me, like I had, I used copious amounts

01:12:07.949 --> 01:12:10.470
of recreational drugs as a young man, like it

01:12:10.470 --> 01:12:14.819
was insane at certain stages. And never opioids,

01:12:15.060 --> 01:12:18.800
thankfully. They weren't around quite as much,

01:12:18.920 --> 01:12:21.680
especially on the more East Coast where I grew

01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:27.800
up and at that time. But yeah, but that also

01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:30.640
gave me incredible compassion for people who

01:12:30.640 --> 01:12:33.619
did. Like when I saw that downtown Eastside for

01:12:33.619 --> 01:12:36.479
the first time, my heart went out to those people

01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:39.939
suffering because I recognized on some level

01:12:39.939 --> 01:12:44.199
that. maybe they probably did have a traumatic

01:12:44.199 --> 01:12:48.239
childhood. In fact, years later, I saw a study

01:12:48.239 --> 01:12:51.579
that was a longitudinal study of residents of

01:12:51.579 --> 01:12:58.119
that neighborhood that showed that 100 % of the

01:12:58.119 --> 01:13:01.380
people that had been in this study also had traumatic

01:13:01.380 --> 01:13:05.500
brain injury. So what came first, the traumatic

01:13:05.500 --> 01:13:08.640
brain injury or the addiction? Most likely it's

01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:10.760
a traumatic brain injury. And then again, you're

01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:13.720
self -medicating with these substances. And that's

01:13:13.720 --> 01:13:17.539
another thing that we started treating people

01:13:17.539 --> 01:13:21.380
for addiction. It's where my heart still lies

01:13:21.380 --> 01:13:24.520
in a lot of ways. But then in working with these

01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:29.100
veterans and working with Amber Marcus and then

01:13:29.100 --> 01:13:33.239
Stanford University and seeing that it's not.

01:13:33.899 --> 01:13:36.720
It's not just addiction. It's not just PTSD.

01:13:37.520 --> 01:13:39.800
It's there's brain damage. There's traumatic

01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:42.199
brain damage that's showing up on brain scans

01:13:42.199 --> 01:13:45.979
and then brain scans after Ibogaine showing that

01:13:45.979 --> 01:13:49.039
that brain damage is largely gone. So pretty

01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:52.899
profound. What's interesting with my community

01:13:52.899 --> 01:13:55.539
is even though traditionally we don't have the

01:13:55.539 --> 01:13:58.920
same head trauma that, you know, obviously tier

01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:01.819
one special operations, words, SWAT, et cetera.

01:14:02.569 --> 01:14:05.789
But we arguably probably some of the most woefully

01:14:05.789 --> 01:14:08.609
sleep deprived of any population. And if you

01:14:08.609 --> 01:14:12.310
look at the physiology, sleep deprivation and

01:14:12.310 --> 01:14:14.390
head trauma kind of mirror each other as far

01:14:14.390 --> 01:14:16.789
as a demyelination of the myelin sheath of the

01:14:16.789 --> 01:14:20.069
nerves. So even though and I did combat sports,

01:14:20.210 --> 01:14:22.510
I was a stuntman. So I probably did get quite

01:14:22.510 --> 01:14:25.569
a lot of head trauma myself. But, you know, even

01:14:25.569 --> 01:14:27.470
if you weren't getting hit in the head a lot

01:14:27.470 --> 01:14:29.710
in your profession, if you are not sleeping every

01:14:29.710 --> 01:14:33.310
third day for 10, 20, 30 years, If you did brain

01:14:33.310 --> 01:14:36.130
scans of firefighters, you probably see a similar

01:14:36.130 --> 01:14:38.729
type of thing. So this is what's exciting, whether

01:14:38.729 --> 01:14:41.630
it's psilocybin or ibogaine, that we're seeing

01:14:41.630 --> 01:14:46.550
this kind of neuroplasticity. There's this regrowth

01:14:46.550 --> 01:14:50.149
of brain tissue or nerves that when I was in

01:14:50.149 --> 01:14:52.949
scientific school years and years ago, we were

01:14:52.949 --> 01:14:54.649
told once you lose it, you lose it. Well, that's

01:14:54.649 --> 01:14:57.029
not the case. There is hope that we can actually

01:14:57.029 --> 01:15:02.949
start regenerating. So the Stanford study, that

01:15:02.949 --> 01:15:06.369
was one of the carrots that was really dangled

01:15:06.369 --> 01:15:09.930
by Amber Capone in the beginning. When we started

01:15:09.930 --> 01:15:12.729
talking, she said, we're trying to get the studies

01:15:12.729 --> 01:15:15.029
done with Stanford. We've got the funding. We

01:15:15.029 --> 01:15:17.630
just need to put the team together. So I very

01:15:17.630 --> 01:15:20.329
much wanted to be a part of that Stanford study.

01:15:20.489 --> 01:15:23.109
I mentioned I didn't go to university, but I

01:15:23.109 --> 01:15:25.310
have a big chip on my shoulder. I wanted to be

01:15:25.310 --> 01:15:28.029
at least as successful as my friends who did.

01:15:30.039 --> 01:15:33.220
I've read a lot of books. I'm kind of highly

01:15:33.220 --> 01:15:35.560
self -educated in a lot of different ways. But

01:15:35.560 --> 01:15:39.079
being published now in four medical journals

01:15:39.079 --> 01:15:42.039
really works for the ego on a certain level,

01:15:42.180 --> 01:15:45.979
including in nature medicine with Stanford University.

01:15:46.340 --> 01:15:48.640
So that was one of the carrots that was dangled.

01:15:48.659 --> 01:15:51.960
And that Stanford study was basically 30 U .S.

01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:57.039
Special Forces veterans. They came to... or they

01:15:57.039 --> 01:15:59.739
went to Stanford prior to coming to my company,

01:15:59.880 --> 01:16:03.220
Ambio, and they got brain scans. They got a battery

01:16:03.220 --> 01:16:05.760
of other tests. They needed a TBI to get into

01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:08.699
the study. And then they went immediately back

01:16:08.699 --> 01:16:12.220
to Stanford after leaving. They got brain scans.

01:16:12.420 --> 01:16:14.180
They got a battery of other tests. And then there

01:16:14.180 --> 01:16:17.039
was a month follow -up as well. So the pre -brain

01:16:17.039 --> 01:16:19.380
scans were clearly showing traumatic brain injury.

01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:22.039
post -brain scans showing it was largely reversed,

01:16:22.180 --> 01:16:24.520
if not entirely reversed in some of those guys.

01:16:24.779 --> 01:16:27.399
The first paper that came out on that measured

01:16:27.399 --> 01:16:31.840
PTSD, depression, anxiety, and disability scores

01:16:31.840 --> 01:16:35.479
all went from almost off the charts down to next

01:16:35.479 --> 01:16:38.760
to nothing after Ibogaine. An interesting one

01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:41.159
there was the disability score, which is actually

01:16:41.159 --> 01:16:46.039
how they measure the TBI. And immediately following

01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:48.640
Ibogaine, that disability score didn't change

01:16:48.640 --> 01:16:51.800
very much at all. It was the month follow -up

01:16:51.800 --> 01:16:54.920
that the disability score dropped dramatically

01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:58.460
in the majority of those guys. So Ibogaine stays

01:16:58.460 --> 01:17:01.779
in your system, keeps doing something. They took

01:17:01.779 --> 01:17:04.119
those brain scans. They ran them through an AI

01:17:04.119 --> 01:17:06.560
algorithm that determines the age of the brain.

01:17:06.779 --> 01:17:12.140
The brains on average got 1 .37 years younger.

01:17:12.670 --> 01:17:14.930
after just one dose of ibogaine. And that's the

01:17:14.930 --> 01:17:17.109
average. So some of those brains were looking

01:17:17.109 --> 01:17:20.569
five years younger. Former Texas Governor Rick

01:17:20.569 --> 01:17:23.989
Perry has been public about this in the New York

01:17:23.989 --> 01:17:27.149
Times recently, but he came down to Ambio for

01:17:27.149 --> 01:17:30.750
treatment and he knows how to get what he wants.

01:17:30.890 --> 01:17:34.510
So he got a brain scan prior to coming in and

01:17:34.510 --> 01:17:38.449
then a brain scan six months after. And the first

01:17:38.449 --> 01:17:41.149
brain scan showed the brain of a... you know,

01:17:41.170 --> 01:17:45.229
an average 72 year old. The post brain scans

01:17:45.229 --> 01:17:49.329
showed no signs of aging. His neurologist says

01:17:49.329 --> 01:17:53.750
this is like the brain of a 45 year old. So all

01:17:53.750 --> 01:17:57.329
that to say that you mentioned the gray matter

01:17:57.329 --> 01:18:00.470
and neuroplasticity. We know that psilocybin,

01:18:00.529 --> 01:18:02.550
we know a few different things. We know even

01:18:02.550 --> 01:18:06.090
a good meditation practice can change the neuroplasticity

01:18:06.090 --> 01:18:09.729
on the gray matter. But before this study with

01:18:09.729 --> 01:18:12.979
Stanford, We had never seen anything that actually

01:18:12.979 --> 01:18:15.539
changed the white matter. And the white matter

01:18:15.539 --> 01:18:18.779
is more of the ingrained information superhighways.

01:18:18.979 --> 01:18:22.300
And the Stanford study showed that the white

01:18:22.300 --> 01:18:25.319
matter increased in volume after Ibogaine as

01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:27.699
well, which is, we don't know of any other substance

01:18:27.699 --> 01:18:31.479
on Earth that can do that. So pretty freaking

01:18:31.479 --> 01:18:36.250
crazy. Well, it's exciting to hear. the former

01:18:36.250 --> 01:18:38.210
governor and some of the other voices in Texas

01:18:38.210 --> 01:18:41.350
trying to really push this through. And I've

01:18:41.350 --> 01:18:43.729
highlighted this many times, the kind of insanity

01:18:43.729 --> 01:18:46.869
that our men and women, especially in the military,

01:18:47.130 --> 01:18:51.670
will fight, die, lose limbs, have mental health

01:18:51.670 --> 01:18:54.789
issues for this country. And then the ones that

01:18:54.789 --> 01:18:57.109
come home then have to go overseas to get help

01:18:57.109 --> 01:19:00.229
for it. You know, it's crazy. So I hope that

01:19:00.229 --> 01:19:02.390
these conversations and some of these voices

01:19:02.390 --> 01:19:05.409
now in all different walks of life are really

01:19:05.409 --> 01:19:07.909
going to start shifting the way we look at prohibition.

01:19:08.470 --> 01:19:10.989
Because no, you know, crystal meth should not

01:19:10.989 --> 01:19:13.369
be on the shelf of the local supermarket. There

01:19:13.369 --> 01:19:15.590
are nuances in between, but there are so many

01:19:15.590 --> 01:19:19.029
healing modalities, MDMA, psilocybin, you know,

01:19:19.029 --> 01:19:20.710
Cambo, all these other ones that we hear about

01:19:20.710 --> 01:19:23.569
as well, that should be accessible to everyone,

01:19:23.649 --> 01:19:27.819
whether they served or not. Yeah. Absolutely.

01:19:28.079 --> 01:19:31.520
There's incredible irony that especially when

01:19:31.520 --> 01:19:33.539
we're working with police officers down here

01:19:33.539 --> 01:19:35.720
and we work with a lot of police officers, but

01:19:35.720 --> 01:19:38.779
police officers who have spent their careers,

01:19:38.859 --> 01:19:42.140
you know, chasing after people who use substances

01:19:42.140 --> 01:19:46.420
like this. But then they can come down to a place

01:19:46.420 --> 01:19:49.699
like Ambio, receive this and kind of reset the

01:19:49.699 --> 01:19:54.029
system and see what's beautiful again. But yeah,

01:19:54.090 --> 01:19:57.369
AMBIO has really become the safe haven for first

01:19:57.369 --> 01:20:00.590
responders, for veterans. That's kind of the

01:20:00.590 --> 01:20:03.829
niche that we grew out of through our relationship

01:20:03.829 --> 01:20:11.029
with Amber and Marcus. So it's sad that they

01:20:11.029 --> 01:20:13.989
have to come down here to take this medicine,

01:20:14.149 --> 01:20:17.229
and it's a real honor for me to be able to work

01:20:17.229 --> 01:20:20.460
with. All these guys down here taking this medicine

01:20:20.460 --> 01:20:22.600
and seeing the profound transformations they

01:20:22.600 --> 01:20:25.979
experience. Absolutely. Well, for people listening,

01:20:26.100 --> 01:20:30.079
then kind of walk us through those 10 ish days

01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:32.659
for someone. Let's just say, for example, they

01:20:32.659 --> 01:20:35.539
do have opioid alcoholism kind of woven in as

01:20:35.539 --> 01:20:38.079
well. What does that look like as far as the

01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:40.079
first few days? And then what will the actual

01:20:40.079 --> 01:20:43.100
Ibogaine experience like be like for them? Yeah.

01:20:43.180 --> 01:20:46.949
So we have. Three different programs. We have

01:20:46.949 --> 01:20:50.430
the foundational program, which is actually a

01:20:50.430 --> 01:20:52.930
five day program. And that's the program that

01:20:52.930 --> 01:20:55.489
a lot of veterans and first responders are coming

01:20:55.489 --> 01:20:58.729
through. We have the detox program, which is

01:20:58.729 --> 01:21:01.350
for somebody who maybe they can't come off alcohol.

01:21:02.010 --> 01:21:04.930
for a week prior to arrival or they're using

01:21:04.930 --> 01:21:07.829
opioids or they're using a stimulant like cocaine

01:21:07.829 --> 01:21:10.109
or crystal meth they'll come through the detox

01:21:10.109 --> 01:21:13.630
program and then we also have a neuro regenerative

01:21:13.630 --> 01:21:16.350
program for things like parkinson's and multiple

01:21:16.350 --> 01:21:19.489
sclerosis where we give a little bit less medicine

01:21:19.489 --> 01:21:22.810
in those programs and we're just seeing dramatic

01:21:22.810 --> 01:21:25.489
results through that as well. But the foundational

01:21:25.489 --> 01:21:27.829
program, the five -day program, is kind of what

01:21:27.829 --> 01:21:31.029
we've become famous for. So how that works is

01:21:31.029 --> 01:21:34.449
somebody would apply at our website, ambio .life.

01:21:35.069 --> 01:21:38.189
Our intake team would reach out to them. They

01:21:38.189 --> 01:21:40.250
might need to come off some other medications.

01:21:40.489 --> 01:21:45.270
You need to come off most SSRIs or ADHD meds

01:21:45.270 --> 01:21:48.189
for at least five days prior to arrival. So we

01:21:48.189 --> 01:21:49.850
encourage people to work with their doctors.

01:21:50.390 --> 01:21:53.069
on doing that. Sadly, a lot of doctors are very

01:21:53.069 --> 01:21:55.130
good at getting people on these substances. They

01:21:55.130 --> 01:21:58.649
have no idea how to get them off. So we can help

01:21:58.649 --> 01:22:01.310
them with the taper schedule and the supplementation

01:22:01.310 --> 01:22:05.689
schedule to do that if need be. We have a coaching

01:22:05.689 --> 01:22:08.510
program as well. So people will receive coaching

01:22:08.510 --> 01:22:11.050
prior to arrival, at least a couple sessions

01:22:11.050 --> 01:22:13.810
before, at least a couple sessions afterwards.

01:22:14.470 --> 01:22:17.869
People need to submit an EKG and some blood work

01:22:17.869 --> 01:22:21.590
prior to arrival. Once all that is set, we set

01:22:21.590 --> 01:22:24.510
the pickup day. We bring people down in groups.

01:22:25.010 --> 01:22:27.270
Depending on what house the people are going

01:22:27.270 --> 01:22:30.229
to, we'll do a six -person group, a seven -person

01:22:30.229 --> 01:22:32.789
group, where our biggest is an 11 -person group.

01:22:33.170 --> 01:22:37.010
And we'll have them arrive at a hotel near the

01:22:37.010 --> 01:22:40.770
airport in San Diego. We pick them up around

01:22:40.770 --> 01:22:42.970
10 a .m. in the morning, bring them down. It's

01:22:42.970 --> 01:22:45.170
only about a 30 -minute drive from the pickup

01:22:45.170 --> 01:22:49.829
point to our houses. And then on that first day,

01:22:50.029 --> 01:22:54.930
we help everybody unpack. We do a circle to get

01:22:54.930 --> 01:22:57.229
to know each other a bit. We have some lunch.

01:22:57.350 --> 01:22:59.750
The food's incredible. Again, we're kind of becoming

01:22:59.750 --> 01:23:04.250
famous for the food. Then everyone goes to a

01:23:04.250 --> 01:23:06.630
traditional Mexican sweat lodge we've been doing

01:23:06.630 --> 01:23:09.149
on that first day, which is a great way to kick

01:23:09.149 --> 01:23:12.729
off the week. It also aligns with the theme of

01:23:12.729 --> 01:23:14.890
the week, which is being comfortable with being

01:23:14.890 --> 01:23:18.600
uncomfortable. Everybody comes back. We serve

01:23:18.600 --> 01:23:21.460
some dinner, some IVs to rehydrate, get some

01:23:21.460 --> 01:23:23.640
rest. The next morning, there's some blood work

01:23:23.640 --> 01:23:27.840
in the morning, some medical intake into breakfast,

01:23:28.100 --> 01:23:31.680
into breath work. Breath is like this untapped

01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:34.380
ally that it's very good to get reacquainted

01:23:34.380 --> 01:23:36.699
with prior to doing something like Ibogaine.

01:23:36.920 --> 01:23:40.039
So they go into that, followed by another preparation

01:23:40.039 --> 01:23:43.239
circle, followed by lunch. Then we'll ask that

01:23:43.239 --> 01:23:46.149
they fast after lunch. In the afternoon, they'll

01:23:46.149 --> 01:23:49.670
get some one -on -one counseling and a massage.

01:23:50.109 --> 01:23:52.510
And then at about 7 p .m., we'll give people

01:23:52.510 --> 01:23:57.250
an IV to help them prepare for Ibogaine, physiologically

01:23:57.250 --> 01:24:00.189
anyway. It's got some magnesium in it. And then

01:24:00.189 --> 01:24:02.909
at about 8 p .m., they'll circle up around a

01:24:02.909 --> 01:24:06.569
fire for a bit of a gratitude ceremony, and we'll

01:24:06.569 --> 01:24:08.390
administer the first dose of medicine at that

01:24:08.390 --> 01:24:12.510
point. We do it in four doses across a few hours.

01:24:13.229 --> 01:24:15.470
But by about 10 o 'clock, we'll ask that they're

01:24:15.470 --> 01:24:18.710
in the treatment room on their mattress. And

01:24:18.710 --> 01:24:20.489
then basically from that point on, they're putting

01:24:20.489 --> 01:24:22.689
on a blindfold and going deep into themselves

01:24:22.689 --> 01:24:25.909
with the Ibogaine. Ibogaine has been referred

01:24:25.909 --> 01:24:30.350
to as oneric, which means as related to dreams.

01:24:30.630 --> 01:24:33.850
So it can be for people kind of like a lucid

01:24:33.850 --> 01:24:37.170
dream type situation. You might see past events

01:24:37.170 --> 01:24:39.869
and be able to put them in a new light. It might

01:24:39.869 --> 01:24:42.470
just be sheer chaos, different visions coming

01:24:42.470 --> 01:24:45.399
at you that make zero sense. And some people

01:24:45.399 --> 01:24:47.739
don't get any visions at all. You don't need

01:24:47.739 --> 01:24:50.199
to have visions for Ibogaine to work for you

01:24:50.199 --> 01:24:53.100
is the neat thing. But basically, they're on

01:24:53.100 --> 01:24:56.380
that mattress for about 12 hours. And then the

01:24:56.380 --> 01:24:59.579
next day is notoriously known as the gray day.

01:24:59.859 --> 01:25:02.699
Everybody feels pretty rough the day after Ibogaine.

01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:05.159
So it's just a lot of recovery. You're not as

01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:07.079
tired as you've ever been, but you can't fall

01:25:07.079 --> 01:25:08.779
asleep because the medicine is still in your

01:25:08.779 --> 01:25:11.399
system. So again, you're just very well taken

01:25:11.399 --> 01:25:14.750
care of. I'll also mention that we're fully medicalized.

01:25:14.829 --> 01:25:18.729
Like there's a nurse or a paramedic on duty 24

01:25:18.729 --> 01:25:21.710
hours a day while people are here. During the

01:25:21.710 --> 01:25:24.449
actual Ibogaine, we have at least a physician

01:25:24.449 --> 01:25:29.029
on duty plus four or five paramedics. So completely

01:25:29.029 --> 01:25:32.810
medicalized through the entire process. And then

01:25:32.810 --> 01:25:36.029
eventually on day three, they'll eventually get

01:25:36.029 --> 01:25:38.750
some sleep. It's after you get some sleep that

01:25:38.750 --> 01:25:40.949
you really start feeling the benefits of Ibogaine.

01:25:41.739 --> 01:25:45.020
And then the next morning, some yoga in the morning,

01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:49.600
some light stretching, breakfast. And then we

01:25:49.600 --> 01:25:53.079
do a debrief circle and a prep circle for the

01:25:53.079 --> 01:25:55.579
other compound that we work with called 5 -MeO

01:25:55.579 --> 01:25:59.420
-DMT. And then everybody takes 5 -MeO -DMT in

01:25:59.420 --> 01:26:02.880
the afternoon. We're in Mexico. So that fourth

01:26:02.880 --> 01:26:05.920
night, we tend to finish with taco night, which

01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:08.659
is a big fan favorite. And then everybody's back

01:26:08.659 --> 01:26:13.739
to San Diego the day after that. Amazing. Talk

01:26:13.739 --> 01:26:16.899
to me about integration. One of my friends, Kagan

01:26:16.899 --> 01:26:21.159
Gill, who was a pilot who had survived the fastest

01:26:21.159 --> 01:26:27.800
ever ejection. Was it you he got into? No, I

01:26:27.800 --> 01:26:31.300
think he went to a place in Cancun, but he's

01:26:31.300 --> 01:26:33.479
a good friend of one of the guys that works here.

01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:36.220
We have an F -18 backseater that's one of our

01:26:36.220 --> 01:26:39.960
hosts down here. So he introduced me to him over

01:26:39.960 --> 01:26:43.210
FaceTime once, I think. Yeah, amazing, amazing.

01:26:43.270 --> 01:26:46.109
I mean, super powerful story and really illustrates

01:26:46.109 --> 01:26:48.390
the failure of the mental health system at that

01:26:48.390 --> 01:26:51.850
point. But he, when he came back on, was talking

01:26:51.850 --> 01:26:54.850
about the wisdom dojo. So basically that integration

01:26:54.850 --> 01:26:57.630
piece after you've had this, because, you know,

01:26:57.630 --> 01:26:59.210
as I don't think anyone has ever claimed, this

01:26:59.210 --> 01:27:01.689
is a magic button that you just do this and everything

01:27:01.689 --> 01:27:04.170
is great. Again, you've still got issues to deal

01:27:04.170 --> 01:27:05.869
with in your personal life. Maybe you've got

01:27:05.869 --> 01:27:07.670
issues that still aren't addressed as far as

01:27:07.670 --> 01:27:11.720
early life, some other poor habits. So talk to

01:27:11.720 --> 01:27:13.920
me about that integration piece. You've had this

01:27:13.920 --> 01:27:16.500
incredibly powerful experience. Maybe you saw

01:27:16.500 --> 01:27:19.640
God in 5MEO DMT and you're kind of rethinking

01:27:19.640 --> 01:27:21.300
about everything that you've ever been taught.

01:27:21.960 --> 01:27:25.300
What is the next step for these men and women

01:27:25.300 --> 01:27:28.319
that go through the program? Yeah. So integration

01:27:28.319 --> 01:27:32.420
basically means how do you take this profound

01:27:32.420 --> 01:27:36.300
experience and put it into your daily life? And

01:27:36.300 --> 01:27:39.239
we have a coaching and integration guide that

01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:44.020
we put together. And it's basically, in all of

01:27:44.020 --> 01:27:46.970
the years that I've been doing this. It's like,

01:27:47.010 --> 01:27:49.529
what's the special sauce? How do we make this

01:27:49.529 --> 01:27:52.069
work for everybody? What do people need to do

01:27:52.069 --> 01:27:54.810
so that this really works? And I mentioned earlier

01:27:54.810 --> 01:27:57.810
that this is a really good negative pattern interrupter.

01:27:57.909 --> 01:28:00.670
I think an extreme example of that is heroin

01:28:00.670 --> 01:28:04.270
or fentanyl. So imagine somebody has been using

01:28:04.270 --> 01:28:06.949
heroin for 10 years prior to arriving at a place

01:28:06.949 --> 01:28:10.569
like this. We give them ibogaine. It takes away

01:28:10.569 --> 01:28:14.779
the addiction virtually overnight. And then what?

01:28:14.840 --> 01:28:17.239
And then you're left with this vacuum. What do

01:28:17.239 --> 01:28:20.060
you fill the vacuum with? So Ibogaine is very

01:28:20.060 --> 01:28:22.420
good at helping you get rid of the negative patterns.

01:28:22.739 --> 01:28:25.340
It's also very good at giving you an opportunity

01:28:25.340 --> 01:28:29.939
to implement new positive patterns. So we recommend

01:28:29.939 --> 01:28:33.300
and our coaches recommend looking at what those

01:28:33.300 --> 01:28:35.159
are going to be. What are you going to do on

01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:38.239
a daily basis to help make your life better?

01:28:38.640 --> 01:28:41.359
Are you going to pray more? Are you going to

01:28:41.359 --> 01:28:44.960
meditate more? Are you going to exercise more?

01:28:45.180 --> 01:28:47.479
Are you going to surround yourself with community

01:28:47.479 --> 01:28:49.840
like the community in the Wisdom Dojo, which

01:28:49.840 --> 01:28:52.539
is a meditation community of a whole bunch of

01:28:52.539 --> 01:28:57.380
former veterans? Yeah, it's really where the

01:28:57.380 --> 01:29:00.920
rubber meets the road. And to a large part, that

01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:04.060
is up to the individual. What are you going to

01:29:04.060 --> 01:29:07.180
do to take the most advantage of this? And what

01:29:07.180 --> 01:29:10.079
are those actions going to be? We recommend...

01:29:10.619 --> 01:29:13.600
something we call the five to thrive, which is

01:29:13.600 --> 01:29:16.159
take some time. And we have a recommended five

01:29:16.159 --> 01:29:18.939
things as well, but take some time to think about

01:29:18.939 --> 01:29:21.380
what are five things you could do every single

01:29:21.380 --> 01:29:24.119
day to make sure you're keeping your life on

01:29:24.119 --> 01:29:26.859
track, moving in the right direction. Is it learn

01:29:26.859 --> 01:29:29.699
something every day? Is it an enrichment activity

01:29:29.699 --> 01:29:32.460
like learning the guitar, the language you always

01:29:32.460 --> 01:29:36.579
wanted to speak? Is it exercise? Is it meditation?

01:29:37.000 --> 01:29:41.840
What is it? But it's basically. You know, it

01:29:41.840 --> 01:29:44.239
looks different for everybody and it's vitally

01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:47.500
important. And it's kind of, like I say, where

01:29:47.500 --> 01:29:49.560
the rubber meets the road. What are you going

01:29:49.560 --> 01:29:52.720
to do to make your life better? And what are

01:29:52.720 --> 01:29:55.039
you going to commit yourself to, to make sure

01:29:55.039 --> 01:29:57.600
that you take complete advantage of this opportunity?

01:29:58.560 --> 01:30:02.939
There also seems to be an element of, you know,

01:30:02.939 --> 01:30:04.899
these experiences, especially with 5MEO, like

01:30:04.899 --> 01:30:07.479
really opening the door to the closet in the

01:30:07.479 --> 01:30:09.880
mind that maybe you didn't realize was there.

01:30:10.520 --> 01:30:13.819
And for example, a kind of talk therapy counseling

01:30:13.819 --> 01:30:17.300
that didn't work prior to this, now you're able

01:30:17.300 --> 01:30:19.180
to access this and work through some of that

01:30:19.180 --> 01:30:21.460
with the therapist that you're working with as

01:30:21.460 --> 01:30:26.239
well. Big time. Or like the 12 steps. Some people

01:30:26.239 --> 01:30:28.859
feel as though they're allergic to a 12 -step

01:30:28.859 --> 01:30:33.199
program like AA. But after something like Ibogaine,

01:30:33.550 --> 01:30:36.409
Those meetings are kind of awesome. And I think

01:30:36.409 --> 01:30:38.850
one of the big things, and you alluded to that

01:30:38.850 --> 01:30:41.590
with the opening the door in the mind, but, you

01:30:41.590 --> 01:30:47.609
know, step one of AA has a component of admitting

01:30:47.609 --> 01:30:51.369
there's a higher power and asking it for help.

01:30:51.729 --> 01:30:55.229
And I have treated more people than I can count

01:30:55.229 --> 01:30:58.770
who said, I was an atheist before I walked in

01:30:58.770 --> 01:31:02.699
here. Now I know there's a God. So all of a sudden

01:31:02.699 --> 01:31:05.880
that makes the 12 steps work again. Or yeah,

01:31:05.939 --> 01:31:08.300
all of a sudden you have a certain tenderness

01:31:08.300 --> 01:31:11.819
about you that allows you to lie on your psychologist's

01:31:11.819 --> 01:31:15.060
couch and actually get to the nitty gritty of

01:31:15.060 --> 01:31:31.859
the stuff that you were skirting before. This

01:31:31.859 --> 01:31:35.159
disassociation or disconnection between knowing

01:31:35.159 --> 01:31:39.800
a God and a hijacking of, I'll say the one that

01:31:39.800 --> 01:31:42.920
I was brought up in Christianity. Have you had

01:31:42.920 --> 01:31:45.399
people that thought they were, in this case,

01:31:45.399 --> 01:31:49.579
Christian, go through this and then recalibrate

01:31:49.579 --> 01:31:52.060
what that true faith is supposed to be about?

01:31:52.199 --> 01:31:55.439
What the community and the compassion and the

01:31:55.439 --> 01:31:58.800
empathy that's at the root of that religion kind

01:31:58.800 --> 01:32:02.119
of click back in and reconnect with it? 100%.

01:32:02.119 --> 01:32:05.859
I'll even, perhaps a more extreme example is

01:32:05.859 --> 01:32:09.399
a gentleman I treated. Again, he's been public

01:32:09.399 --> 01:32:14.039
with his story. His name is Fawad Qalsi. He was

01:32:14.039 --> 01:32:21.000
the imam at his mosque. He's a Muslim man. And

01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:27.760
he got addicted to oxys. He had never had a drink

01:32:27.760 --> 01:32:30.640
in his life, never smoked in his life, went into

01:32:30.640 --> 01:32:34.039
his doctor with severe pancreatitis, gave him

01:32:34.039 --> 01:32:37.420
OxyContin, had no idea he was addicted to these

01:32:37.420 --> 01:32:40.819
things until Christmas hit one year and he went

01:32:40.819 --> 01:32:46.140
into extreme withdrawals, which led him to massive

01:32:46.140 --> 01:32:51.670
depression. His doctor got... audited, investigated,

01:32:52.130 --> 01:32:54.989
almost lost his license for his case in particular

01:32:54.989 --> 01:32:57.970
for over -prescribing means, which led him to

01:32:57.970 --> 01:33:01.010
being cut off of the supply. He's going to his

01:33:01.010 --> 01:33:04.489
next -door neighbor for a street supply of oxys.

01:33:05.029 --> 01:33:07.930
Miserable. Used to run a travel agency as well.

01:33:08.189 --> 01:33:11.289
Couldn't travel. His buddy said, you got to come

01:33:11.289 --> 01:33:13.229
with me. We got to get you out of here. Let's

01:33:13.229 --> 01:33:17.310
go to Japan. It's on me. YouTube is auto -playing

01:33:17.310 --> 01:33:20.850
videos about Japan. One of the videos says, 10

01:33:20.850 --> 01:33:23.930
things you should never bring to Japan. Number

01:33:23.930 --> 01:33:26.170
one is any kind of opiate. They're completely

01:33:26.170 --> 01:33:29.869
illegal there. So more depression. His wife says,

01:33:29.989 --> 01:33:33.069
let's go for a trip anyway. They went to San

01:33:33.069 --> 01:33:36.789
Francisco. He's miserable, sitting in his hotel

01:33:36.789 --> 01:33:41.170
room, watching a marathon of Law & Order. It's

01:33:41.170 --> 01:33:44.270
2 a .m. And the one Law & Order episode that

01:33:44.270 --> 01:33:48.649
mentions Ibogaine pops up. And he's like, what?

01:33:49.100 --> 01:33:52.600
Is this real? And he starts looking into it.

01:33:52.640 --> 01:33:55.199
He books a trip to Mexico. Whoever it was in

01:33:55.199 --> 01:33:57.600
Mexico said, you know, you've got a really good

01:33:57.600 --> 01:34:00.800
Ibogaine provider in Vancouver. He lived in Vancouver.

01:34:00.979 --> 01:34:04.640
So he came to me when I ran Liberty Route. And

01:34:04.640 --> 01:34:12.319
he had a vision of himself running towards God.

01:34:13.239 --> 01:34:17.819
And he was carrying a briefcase. which was his

01:34:17.819 --> 01:34:21.819
gift to God. And right before he got to God,

01:34:22.000 --> 01:34:27.220
the briefcase broke open and it was empty. And

01:34:27.220 --> 01:34:30.359
he realized that this was speaking to him about

01:34:30.359 --> 01:34:33.600
the way he had been approaching his religion,

01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:37.840
which was methodical, which was dry, which was

01:34:37.840 --> 01:34:41.140
ultimately empty. And Ibogaine turned him into

01:34:41.140 --> 01:34:44.640
the most beautiful spiritual man imaginable.

01:34:44.659 --> 01:34:47.619
He has brought focus on addiction within the

01:34:47.619 --> 01:34:52.720
Muslim community in Vancouver. He has done so

01:34:52.720 --> 01:34:56.460
much good post journey with that shift from,

01:34:56.520 --> 01:35:00.920
you know, being religious to being spiritual.

01:35:01.119 --> 01:35:04.699
And it's sad. I'm actually, I consider myself

01:35:04.699 --> 01:35:09.460
Christian. I was raised in the United Church

01:35:09.460 --> 01:35:13.680
of Canada. I stepped away from religion. for

01:35:13.680 --> 01:35:16.439
years and kind of became atheistic and then kind

01:35:16.439 --> 01:35:18.880
of became more spiritual and then turned back

01:35:18.880 --> 01:35:22.039
into Christianity and kind of feel as though

01:35:22.039 --> 01:35:25.100
I'm more aligned with the essence of what Jesus

01:35:25.100 --> 01:35:28.640
was teaching, which is largely also inspired

01:35:28.640 --> 01:35:34.140
my path in life. But I'm currently writing a

01:35:34.140 --> 01:35:37.239
book about it. The title is Heroic Christianity.

01:35:37.720 --> 01:35:41.539
And through the process of this book, The word

01:35:41.539 --> 01:35:46.579
religion means to tie together. So it's like

01:35:46.579 --> 01:35:50.359
tying together and it's tying yourself to wholeness.

01:35:50.600 --> 01:35:55.020
So religion itself should ultimately mean, you

01:35:55.020 --> 01:35:58.640
know, binding yourself to the whole, which ironically,

01:35:58.859 --> 01:36:01.300
especially in the eyes of a lot of Christians,

01:36:01.439 --> 01:36:03.880
the way they might look at this word, that's

01:36:03.880 --> 01:36:07.579
exactly what the word yoga means. Yoga means

01:36:07.579 --> 01:36:13.250
to yoke to. Like the yoke a beast of burden would

01:36:13.250 --> 01:36:17.369
use to yoke themselves to a cart. You're tying

01:36:17.369 --> 01:36:20.189
yourself to the wholeness of the universe. The

01:36:20.189 --> 01:36:22.369
word yoga and the word religion both mean exactly

01:36:22.369 --> 01:36:24.909
the same thing. I had no idea what religion meant

01:36:24.909 --> 01:36:28.869
until I stumbled upon that the other day. I think

01:36:28.869 --> 01:36:30.510
this is a really powerful kind of perspective

01:36:30.510 --> 01:36:34.770
because when I look at what is being... done

01:36:34.770 --> 01:36:37.050
in the name of Christianity at the moment, as

01:36:37.050 --> 01:36:39.649
I sit here in America, you know, hunting down

01:36:39.649 --> 01:36:42.949
immigrants, telling, you know, addicts that Narcan

01:36:42.949 --> 01:36:45.510
is wasted on them, shooing homeless away from

01:36:45.510 --> 01:36:48.090
your area. Those are not things that Jesus would

01:36:48.090 --> 01:36:52.869
do at all. So I wonder how much moral injury

01:36:52.869 --> 01:36:56.010
there is amongst these people that claim from

01:36:56.010 --> 01:36:58.329
their church, but they know in their subconscious

01:36:58.329 --> 01:37:01.149
that they're actually not even aligning to their

01:37:01.149 --> 01:37:06.819
own values. Yeah, I wonder. I see it and there's

01:37:06.819 --> 01:37:09.399
kind of this revitalization of Christianity,

01:37:09.500 --> 01:37:15.300
I think, among young men. A lot of it, I think,

01:37:15.359 --> 01:37:18.720
ultimately it's going to lead down a very beautiful

01:37:18.720 --> 01:37:23.760
path. But as soon as you use your newfound faith

01:37:23.760 --> 01:37:28.859
to make somebody else worse than you, you're

01:37:28.859 --> 01:37:32.239
missing. the lesson you're missing the guy's

01:37:32.239 --> 01:37:35.600
entire message love your enemies as yourself

01:37:35.600 --> 01:37:39.840
love your neighbors as yourself and that to me

01:37:39.840 --> 01:37:46.619
is the you know a profound in 2003 i believe

01:37:46.619 --> 01:37:50.380
i tried 5meo dmt for the first time and i had

01:37:50.380 --> 01:37:52.760
kind of been new on the spiritual path at that

01:37:52.760 --> 01:37:57.560
time and i took 5meo dmt and all of a sudden

01:37:57.560 --> 01:38:03.140
i could feel every cell of my body being aware

01:38:03.140 --> 01:38:06.579
of me being aware of it and then that knowing

01:38:06.579 --> 01:38:09.779
exploded into the whole universe all of a sudden

01:38:09.779 --> 01:38:14.300
i could feel every atom in the universe and i

01:38:14.300 --> 01:38:17.100
was one with it all and i felt this interchange

01:38:17.100 --> 01:38:21.439
of awareness behind it all and you know kind

01:38:21.439 --> 01:38:23.699
of that was kind of the ego getting blasted away

01:38:23.699 --> 01:38:26.399
but as the ego came back it's like what what

01:38:26.399 --> 01:38:30.329
does that mean and it came in that it's it's

01:38:30.329 --> 01:38:34.250
perfect you can't mess it up the whole universe

01:38:34.250 --> 01:38:37.569
is a bed of perfection upon which all of your

01:38:37.569 --> 01:38:40.710
ideas of imperfection might spring from but the

01:38:40.710 --> 01:38:44.789
perfection comes first and it was just this profound

01:38:44.789 --> 01:38:48.930
sense of oneness and unity that you know i knew

01:38:48.930 --> 01:38:51.930
on a visceral level for the first time or the

01:38:51.930 --> 01:38:56.300
first time i can remember and it was that Knowing

01:38:56.300 --> 01:39:00.060
of unity, once you tease that out enough, we

01:39:00.060 --> 01:39:04.000
are literally one with each other. So if anyone

01:39:04.000 --> 01:39:09.279
is suffering, then all of us is suffering. So

01:39:09.279 --> 01:39:12.300
that's what, well, what can I do to help suffering?

01:39:12.439 --> 01:39:14.979
Well, this neighborhood called the Downtown Eastside

01:39:14.979 --> 01:39:17.279
looks like it could use some help. And I always

01:39:17.279 --> 01:39:21.260
use that. I should also say that we were able

01:39:21.260 --> 01:39:24.159
to treat some people. pro bono from the downtown

01:39:24.159 --> 01:39:26.939
east side. That's not an easy process. You don't

01:39:26.939 --> 01:39:29.640
want to just pluck somebody up from that neighborhood,

01:39:29.760 --> 01:39:32.479
give them Ibogaine and drop them back. So I went

01:39:32.479 --> 01:39:36.220
on a long process within the Vancouver area network

01:39:36.220 --> 01:39:41.420
of drug users, vetting a bunch of people. And

01:39:41.420 --> 01:39:45.180
in the end, it was one guy who showed up every

01:39:45.180 --> 01:39:47.979
week for this meeting. We gave him Ibogaine.

01:39:48.039 --> 01:39:50.579
Long story short, it went great for him. It really

01:39:50.579 --> 01:39:55.390
changed his life. But I always use that as inspiration.

01:39:55.489 --> 01:39:59.289
Like if we can help a neighborhood that seems

01:39:59.289 --> 01:40:02.449
to be this far gone, then there's really hope

01:40:02.449 --> 01:40:08.750
for everybody. And I'm still just working on

01:40:08.750 --> 01:40:10.729
that mission. That's really all I'm doing is

01:40:10.729 --> 01:40:16.869
I'm still, there's a lot more work than I knew

01:40:16.869 --> 01:40:19.789
needed to be done to be able to provide this

01:40:19.789 --> 01:40:22.739
medicine at scale. So that's all we're doing

01:40:22.739 --> 01:40:27.579
is as Ambio, our mission is to provide this medicine

01:40:27.579 --> 01:40:31.500
at scale to people. So hopefully before I die,

01:40:31.699 --> 01:40:34.619
I can provide this medicine to scale at people

01:40:34.619 --> 01:40:38.420
from that downtown east side still as well. I

01:40:38.420 --> 01:40:41.699
think there's been no greater red flag than the

01:40:41.699 --> 01:40:44.199
apathy towards what happens, what's happening

01:40:44.199 --> 01:40:47.579
in Gaza, you know. When it's tens of thousands

01:40:47.579 --> 01:40:50.199
of children, you cannot look in the mirror and

01:40:50.199 --> 01:40:53.100
say, oh, they're a mass. Is there a generational

01:40:53.100 --> 01:40:56.079
issue between these two sides? Of course. Does

01:40:56.079 --> 01:40:58.279
it go? I mean, if you go far enough back, the

01:40:58.279 --> 01:41:00.720
British are partly to blame to this whole, you

01:41:00.720 --> 01:41:03.420
know what I mean? But the only thing that we

01:41:03.420 --> 01:41:06.220
can do, any of us listening, is to look in the

01:41:06.220 --> 01:41:09.000
mirror and go, well, how can I fix me first?

01:41:09.770 --> 01:41:12.909
Then how can I benefit my wife, my husband, my

01:41:12.909 --> 01:41:15.270
children, and then step outside your front door

01:41:15.270 --> 01:41:17.289
and be like, how can I be a positive influence

01:41:17.289 --> 01:41:21.069
in my community? And if we all did that and we

01:41:21.069 --> 01:41:23.829
actually made healing front and center, I don't

01:41:23.829 --> 01:41:26.449
think you would see the tyranny, you know, gain

01:41:26.449 --> 01:41:28.850
the power that it does. But if you have a bunch

01:41:28.850 --> 01:41:30.789
of people that are unwilling to even do their

01:41:30.789 --> 01:41:33.590
own work, then it's easy to turn your head when

01:41:33.590 --> 01:41:36.310
something really, really awful happens that going

01:41:36.310 --> 01:41:39.170
back to your grandfather, my grandfather. that

01:41:39.170 --> 01:41:41.670
fought the very thing that's happening now, that

01:41:41.670 --> 01:41:45.010
took up arms and went to another country to protect

01:41:45.010 --> 01:41:47.789
innocent people from these kind of things. So

01:41:47.789 --> 01:41:50.930
I think that this awakening of healing, this

01:41:50.930 --> 01:41:54.369
awakening of reconnecting with faith, not a doctrine,

01:41:54.729 --> 01:41:57.710
is what needs to happen because there are so

01:41:57.710 --> 01:42:01.960
many glaring signs now. of if we don't start

01:42:01.960 --> 01:42:04.680
having this this awakening then really bad things

01:42:04.680 --> 01:42:07.079
are going to happen but we can absolutely turn

01:42:07.079 --> 01:42:09.619
a corner and it's not just our firefighters and

01:42:09.619 --> 01:42:12.380
our navy seals as every single person can go

01:42:12.380 --> 01:42:15.239
on their version of a healing journey does everyone

01:42:15.239 --> 01:42:18.020
need ibogaine no does everyone need you know

01:42:18.020 --> 01:42:21.260
psilocybin or you know ssris no there's a lot

01:42:21.260 --> 01:42:23.909
of us that i think just doing some of the, you

01:42:23.909 --> 01:42:25.770
know, eating better and exercising, getting out

01:42:25.770 --> 01:42:28.609
in nature and meditating, we can take a large

01:42:28.609 --> 01:42:31.069
chunk of those people hurting out of the equation.

01:42:31.409 --> 01:42:35.550
And then we can really focus these amazing modalities

01:42:35.550 --> 01:42:37.770
that we have available to the people that actually

01:42:37.770 --> 01:42:41.210
need it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the,

01:42:41.310 --> 01:42:43.850
I mentioned the five to thrive in our coaching

01:42:43.850 --> 01:42:48.430
and integration guide. One of the five that I

01:42:48.430 --> 01:42:51.649
invite people to consider is to develop a passion

01:42:51.649 --> 01:42:55.510
project. all right, you've made yourself feel

01:42:55.510 --> 01:42:58.390
a lot better. I know one of the things most people

01:42:58.390 --> 01:43:01.369
need to feel, to continue to feel that way is

01:43:01.369 --> 01:43:04.170
a sense of purpose. So what's something that

01:43:04.170 --> 01:43:06.510
you could just start doing to try and make this

01:43:06.510 --> 01:43:09.090
world a better place? Because if all of us take

01:43:09.090 --> 01:43:12.449
upon just a small project and start small at

01:43:12.449 --> 01:43:15.470
the beginning to make the world a better place,

01:43:15.689 --> 01:43:20.109
what's it going to be? Again, I recognize that.

01:43:20.170 --> 01:43:22.890
I think I'll give credit to this first five MEO

01:43:22.890 --> 01:43:26.750
DMT experiences, you know, realizing we're all

01:43:26.750 --> 01:43:29.649
one, knowing I want to give back, having no idea

01:43:29.649 --> 01:43:33.229
how I'm going to give back. Before the idea of

01:43:33.229 --> 01:43:35.189
helping the downtown east side came on the radar,

01:43:35.350 --> 01:43:38.029
I just went up and went out and started picking

01:43:38.029 --> 01:43:41.789
up garbage. I just took a garbage bag. I picked

01:43:41.789 --> 01:43:45.100
up trash. I filled up bags and bags and bags.

01:43:45.399 --> 01:43:49.159
And I found that once I got myself in that flow

01:43:49.159 --> 01:43:53.380
of giving, I don't even call it selflessly. I

01:43:53.380 --> 01:44:00.100
think there's a trick that I think the thing

01:44:00.100 --> 01:44:02.779
that makes a human feel better than anything

01:44:02.779 --> 01:44:06.800
else is truly helping a person. So I feel as

01:44:06.800 --> 01:44:09.420
though the most selfish thing you can do, again,

01:44:09.500 --> 01:44:13.640
ironically, becomes altruism, becomes giving

01:44:13.640 --> 01:44:17.420
back, becomes helping other people. And I found

01:44:17.420 --> 01:44:20.140
that once I was giving back like that, somewhat

01:44:20.140 --> 01:44:22.460
selfishly, because it felt good to even just

01:44:22.460 --> 01:44:26.039
pick up that garbage, I was in the flow. Then

01:44:26.039 --> 01:44:29.899
the next idea came. Then I got inspired. That

01:44:29.899 --> 01:44:33.460
turned into me sitting on this podcast with you.

01:44:33.539 --> 01:44:36.779
I had no idea how I was going to help as a 23

01:44:36.779 --> 01:44:39.880
-year -old kid. felt helpless but was praying

01:44:39.880 --> 01:44:43.840
desperately please make use of me and i don't

01:44:43.840 --> 01:44:45.359
know how you're going to make use of me in the

01:44:45.359 --> 01:44:48.000
long run but my neighborhood could use a bit

01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:52.020
of a cleanup you know so i just think that's

01:44:52.020 --> 01:44:54.420
what this book heroic christianity is all about

01:44:54.420 --> 01:44:57.079
like how do you take your faith and turn it into

01:44:57.079 --> 01:44:59.739
action because what the world needs right now

01:44:59.739 --> 01:45:03.359
is people actually living from the values that

01:45:03.359 --> 01:45:06.880
jesus taught and turning that into healing what's

01:45:06.880 --> 01:45:11.399
going on in this uh mad mad world right now absolutely

01:45:11.399 --> 01:45:13.779
i mean i don't know if i'm being naive but i

01:45:13.779 --> 01:45:18.100
feel like the common takeaway from most of the

01:45:18.100 --> 01:45:20.659
holy books that are out there is just simply

01:45:20.659 --> 01:45:25.430
don't be a dick So whether you're a Muslim or

01:45:25.430 --> 01:45:27.850
Jew or, you know, Jewish, excuse me, or, you

01:45:27.850 --> 01:45:30.430
know, Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or insert,

01:45:30.529 --> 01:45:32.890
you know, seek all these other ones. Ultimately,

01:45:32.989 --> 01:45:35.350
I would argue that the wisdom that survived these

01:45:35.350 --> 01:45:38.170
ages is simply that, you know, if they were preaching,

01:45:38.250 --> 01:45:40.390
Hey, the best way to carry on is to continue

01:45:40.390 --> 01:45:43.670
genocide and create war. I don't think those

01:45:43.670 --> 01:45:46.329
books would last very long, but if love and community

01:45:46.329 --> 01:45:48.609
compassion and empathy is at the root of it.

01:45:49.500 --> 01:45:51.220
That's what we got to refine. That's what we

01:45:51.220 --> 01:45:55.300
got to lean back into. All right. For people

01:45:55.300 --> 01:45:57.819
listening. So we have Veterans Exploring Treatment

01:45:57.819 --> 01:46:00.920
Solutions, Marcus and Amber's nonprofit. If people

01:46:00.920 --> 01:46:05.079
are in the military, we have... Vetsolutions

01:46:05.079 --> 01:46:08.699
.org is their website. Thank you. And then we

01:46:08.699 --> 01:46:13.039
have the 343 Fund, Angela Scudin for first responders.

01:46:13.119 --> 01:46:15.420
So talk to me about that one. Yeah, so that's

01:46:15.420 --> 01:46:19.800
343fund .org. Angela Skuden is this another force

01:46:19.800 --> 01:46:24.760
of nature. Her husband was a firefighter, Casey

01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:29.699
Skuden, and they were driving down a road to

01:46:29.699 --> 01:46:33.460
celebrate something, one of their birthdays,

01:46:33.579 --> 01:46:39.159
and a tree fell on the car and just out of nowhere

01:46:39.159 --> 01:46:43.869
killed her husband. And massive healing process

01:46:43.869 --> 01:46:46.090
from that. There was a massive healing process

01:46:46.090 --> 01:46:49.130
for Angela that started even well before that

01:46:49.130 --> 01:46:51.590
as she was trying to cure herself from Lyme disease.

01:46:51.829 --> 01:46:54.710
Find some Angela Skuden podcasts and hear her

01:46:54.710 --> 01:46:59.010
story. It's really remarkable. But she was inspired

01:46:59.010 --> 01:47:03.170
by Marcus and Amber and decided to set up a nonprofit

01:47:03.170 --> 01:47:05.989
that would help first responders in the same

01:47:05.989 --> 01:47:09.489
way. And she has succeeded. and it's incredible.

01:47:09.729 --> 01:47:12.829
So she works with, whether it's police, fire,

01:47:13.109 --> 01:47:17.029
paramedic, first responders, she'll help them

01:47:17.029 --> 01:47:20.390
get the treatment down here at AMBIO, plus she

01:47:20.390 --> 01:47:24.310
set up, as VETS has, just this very robust community

01:47:24.310 --> 01:47:29.510
around it. with weekly breathwork sessions, with

01:47:29.510 --> 01:47:33.270
weekly ways to tune in, ongoing integration.

01:47:33.550 --> 01:47:35.989
And I think she's extended the integration coaching

01:47:35.989 --> 01:47:39.069
so that people can show up for a year for integration.

01:47:39.630 --> 01:47:44.550
So yeah, Angela is hardcore. They have a couple

01:47:44.550 --> 01:47:47.630
of fundraisers coming up in October in Chicago

01:47:47.630 --> 01:47:50.470
and Austin. So if people are interested, they

01:47:50.470 --> 01:47:53.729
should come and check those out. I can't remember

01:47:53.729 --> 01:47:57.039
the episode number, but Angela was on. Two months

01:47:57.039 --> 01:47:59.399
ago, for people listening, just Google Behind

01:47:59.399 --> 01:48:01.579
the Shield, Angela Skuden, and you'll find her

01:48:01.579 --> 01:48:04.079
episode there. Are there any other nonprofits

01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:06.119
you want to talk about before we go to some closing

01:48:06.119 --> 01:48:15.359
questions? Oh, man. There is, yeah, I'd say nothing

01:48:15.359 --> 01:48:20.760
that really has a lot of legs under them. No,

01:48:20.880 --> 01:48:22.340
those are the main ones. Those are the main.

01:48:22.399 --> 01:48:27.189
Well, no. Heroic Hearts is another one. They've

01:48:27.189 --> 01:48:29.770
sent us a few. Heroic Hearts is another. Yeah,

01:48:29.850 --> 01:48:33.010
they're awesome, Jesse. They've just started

01:48:33.010 --> 01:48:39.390
sending us a few. So kudos to them. And where's

01:48:39.390 --> 01:48:43.270
the other one? I'll kick myself afterwards for

01:48:43.270 --> 01:48:45.970
not saying. Oh, another one called Songs for

01:48:45.970 --> 01:48:48.789
Soldiers. They've been great as well. You should

01:48:48.789 --> 01:48:51.949
check out them on YouTube. Songs for Soldiers.

01:48:52.090 --> 01:48:56.399
They have a really beautiful. testimony of a

01:48:56.399 --> 01:48:58.460
guy that came through that really inspired them

01:48:58.460 --> 01:49:02.220
to throw money this way as well. It's been pretty

01:49:02.220 --> 01:49:05.760
amazing. Fantastic. All right. Well, I want to

01:49:05.760 --> 01:49:07.800
go to some closing questions quickly. Before

01:49:07.800 --> 01:49:09.579
we even get to that, actually, what is going

01:49:09.579 --> 01:49:11.180
to be the name of your book? I think you said

01:49:11.180 --> 01:49:12.699
it once before. And then when are you looking

01:49:12.699 --> 01:49:20.060
to release it? So I have a 20 chapter book already

01:49:20.060 --> 01:49:26.119
written. And as I continued down this process

01:49:26.119 --> 01:49:29.880
I realized it's not as perfect as I want it to

01:49:29.880 --> 01:49:34.319
be so I have actually hired a writing coach and

01:49:34.319 --> 01:49:38.060
it's he's a great guy also named Jonathan and

01:49:38.060 --> 01:49:41.920
he helped my business partner Jonathan get his

01:49:41.920 --> 01:49:45.239
book written and I'll plug his book as well because

01:49:45.239 --> 01:49:48.000
Jonathan Dickinson has written what is going

01:49:48.000 --> 01:49:53.239
to be the definitive book on ibogaine It's been

01:49:53.239 --> 01:49:56.600
picked up for publishing. It should be available

01:49:56.600 --> 01:49:59.600
for pre -order soon, and then will be available

01:49:59.600 --> 01:50:02.399
in the second half of next year. I think the

01:50:02.399 --> 01:50:06.039
title is still up in the air, but really looking

01:50:06.039 --> 01:50:07.880
forward to that. I've read the first half of

01:50:07.880 --> 01:50:10.560
it. It's hard to read something on PDF. I got

01:50:10.560 --> 01:50:14.140
to finish it, but it's an incredible book. And

01:50:14.140 --> 01:50:17.600
then I've just come up with the subtitle of my

01:50:17.600 --> 01:50:19.420
book, so I'm actually reading it off my screen.

01:50:20.159 --> 01:50:24.140
Heroic Christianity, walking the sacred path

01:50:24.140 --> 01:50:28.880
with bold faith to transcend shadows, awaken

01:50:28.880 --> 01:50:34.279
divine glory, and bring heaven to earth. Love

01:50:34.279 --> 01:50:39.359
it. No small goals there. When do you think that

01:50:39.359 --> 01:50:45.079
will be out? I should be done my process by...

01:50:48.250 --> 01:50:51.369
five months, so January or so. And then I think

01:50:51.369 --> 01:50:54.470
I'm just going to self -publish it. That's what

01:50:54.470 --> 01:50:56.729
I did with mine. Super easy. And no one can tell

01:50:56.729 --> 01:50:58.869
you, you got to take that bit out. You just publish

01:50:58.869 --> 01:51:02.909
it as it is. All right. Well, the next question

01:51:02.909 --> 01:51:05.350
then, are there, aside from those two, are there

01:51:05.350 --> 01:51:07.329
any books that you love to recommend? It can

01:51:07.329 --> 01:51:09.649
be related to our discussion today or completely

01:51:09.649 --> 01:51:19.319
unrelated. Yeah, 100%. I really love Autobiography

01:51:19.319 --> 01:51:24.319
of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda. This book

01:51:24.319 --> 01:51:30.819
came into my life. It was, I can't remember how

01:51:30.819 --> 01:51:32.859
it came into my life, but it was the first book,

01:51:33.220 --> 01:51:36.539
first and only book I read in its entirety on

01:51:36.539 --> 01:51:40.140
my iPhone. And then I found out shortly thereafter

01:51:40.140 --> 01:51:45.500
that it is... the only book Steve Jobs had on

01:51:45.500 --> 01:51:50.199
his iPad, and it's the book Steve Jobs had handed

01:51:50.199 --> 01:51:54.079
out to everyone who attended his funeral. And

01:51:54.079 --> 01:51:56.800
it is basically the autobiography of a young

01:51:56.800 --> 01:52:02.739
Indian man who became a great leader. And what

01:52:02.739 --> 01:52:06.500
that book did for me is it really spread my mind

01:52:06.500 --> 01:52:09.479
as to what's possible with spirituality, just

01:52:09.479 --> 01:52:13.560
beyond kind of... the typical Christian tropes.

01:52:13.560 --> 01:52:18.260
I feel as though ultimately Yogananda and Jesus

01:52:18.260 --> 01:52:20.859
were drinking from the same cup. I think their

01:52:20.859 --> 01:52:24.779
teachings are in complete alignment, but I love

01:52:24.779 --> 01:52:29.979
that book. I find a book that really, like if

01:52:29.979 --> 01:52:34.039
you, if you, I, like I dove into I've read every

01:52:34.039 --> 01:52:36.319
self -help book you could get your hands on,

01:52:36.399 --> 01:52:38.920
Tony Robbins type stuff, all of it, Think and

01:52:38.920 --> 01:52:40.960
Grow Rich, The Science of Getting Rich. Those

01:52:40.960 --> 01:52:43.560
are both incredible if you haven't read those.

01:52:43.659 --> 01:52:48.380
The Science of Getting Rich, actually, I threw

01:52:48.380 --> 01:52:50.539
the baby out with the bathwater on religion,

01:52:50.640 --> 01:52:53.159
and it was The Science of Getting Rich, which

01:52:53.159 --> 01:52:57.619
said, there is a thinking substance. that permeates

01:52:57.619 --> 01:53:00.779
the interspaces of the universe. And a thought

01:53:00.779 --> 01:53:04.039
impressed upon this substance brings about the

01:53:04.039 --> 01:53:07.159
thing thought about. And the way that hit me

01:53:07.159 --> 01:53:10.039
one day, I'm like, is that God? Is that what

01:53:10.039 --> 01:53:13.840
they're trying to sell me with God everywhere,

01:53:14.140 --> 01:53:18.460
all powerful, all knowing? So that opened me

01:53:18.460 --> 01:53:21.779
up to... I started looking at every spiritual

01:53:21.779 --> 01:53:24.420
thing I could get my hand on and started looking

01:53:24.420 --> 01:53:27.680
for what was similar between them all. And of

01:53:27.680 --> 01:53:29.699
course, there's tremendous similarity between

01:53:29.699 --> 01:53:34.180
all of them if you have eyes to see. But all

01:53:34.180 --> 01:53:38.939
of these books essentially say you need to stop

01:53:38.939 --> 01:53:43.250
thinking poorly and stop. start thinking positively

01:53:43.250 --> 01:53:47.510
which is easier said than done you know we just

01:53:47.510 --> 01:53:50.149
spin all these negative thoughts all the time

01:53:50.149 --> 01:53:54.050
and negative emotions and a book that changed

01:53:54.050 --> 01:53:57.609
the game for me on that is called the astonishing

01:53:57.609 --> 01:54:05.170
power of emotions by esther hicks and it i was

01:54:05.170 --> 01:54:07.590
i was back home in kitchener i was at a used

01:54:07.590 --> 01:54:11.859
bookstore and There were two books that I was

01:54:11.859 --> 01:54:14.539
thinking of getting. I got one. I set the other

01:54:14.539 --> 01:54:17.079
one down. As I'm flying home the next day, I'm

01:54:17.079 --> 01:54:19.640
like, oh, I should have got that Astonishing

01:54:19.640 --> 01:54:21.880
Power of Emotions book. I'm still going to go

01:54:21.880 --> 01:54:24.579
to a bookstore and pick it up. So I get home.

01:54:24.680 --> 01:54:27.220
I lived right next door to a bookstore in White

01:54:27.220 --> 01:54:30.600
Rock. I go to the bookstore. The book isn't there.

01:54:31.659 --> 01:54:37.859
I treat somebody that weekend with a therapeutic.

01:54:38.489 --> 01:54:41.649
dose of psychedelics the one book he brought

01:54:41.649 --> 01:54:44.510
with him was the astonishing power of emotions

01:54:44.510 --> 01:54:48.409
so it fell into my lap and it really talks about

01:54:48.409 --> 01:54:53.550
it frames your emotions in a very useful way

01:54:53.550 --> 01:54:59.029
and kind of lets you know what they are as far

01:54:59.029 --> 01:55:01.630
as kind of your internal guidance system and

01:55:01.630 --> 01:55:06.369
how to use them properly and I read the first

01:55:06.369 --> 01:55:08.609
half of that book while I was giving this gentleman

01:55:08.609 --> 01:55:12.170
his therapeutic psychedelic session, and something

01:55:12.170 --> 01:55:16.689
clicked in me. All of a sudden, it was very easy

01:55:16.689 --> 01:55:20.350
for me to stay positive all the time. I think

01:55:20.350 --> 01:55:24.060
I went about six months. without having a negative

01:55:24.060 --> 01:55:26.859
emotion i could if it started creeping in i could

01:55:26.859 --> 01:55:31.239
instantly reframe it flip it and just stay oriented

01:55:31.239 --> 01:55:34.520
in a way that i feel as though if you're positive

01:55:34.520 --> 01:55:36.520
if you're at peace then you're going to attract

01:55:36.520 --> 01:55:39.039
more of that into your life so highly recommend

01:55:39.039 --> 01:55:42.659
that book i can read books man so no there's

01:55:42.659 --> 01:55:44.340
some great ones some i haven't heard of before

01:55:44.340 --> 01:55:47.159
so thank you what about films and documentaries

01:55:47.159 --> 01:55:53.149
i highly recommend one called finding joe It

01:55:53.149 --> 01:55:56.409
is a documentary. You can find it on YouTube.

01:55:56.890 --> 01:56:00.229
And it is all about the life and teachings of

01:56:00.229 --> 01:56:03.750
Joseph Campbell. Joseph Campbell was the guy

01:56:03.750 --> 01:56:06.970
who coined the term the hero's journey. He studied

01:56:06.970 --> 01:56:11.609
mythology as a passion and for a living. And

01:56:11.609 --> 01:56:15.989
he realized that there is a common template in

01:56:15.989 --> 01:56:22.399
every story we've ever heard. which is basically

01:56:22.399 --> 01:56:27.199
the departure. There's the ordinary world, Luke

01:56:27.199 --> 01:56:32.920
Skywalker's on Tatooine, Anderson's working at

01:56:32.920 --> 01:56:36.340
his office before he becomes Neo. Then there's

01:56:36.340 --> 01:56:38.880
the call to adventure. Then there's the initiation.

01:56:39.579 --> 01:56:42.560
Then there's the lessons learned on the road

01:56:42.560 --> 01:56:45.979
of trials. There's all the temptations that face

01:56:45.979 --> 01:56:47.779
themselves. There's all the dragons you need

01:56:47.779 --> 01:56:53.460
to battle. You throw the ring away like Frodo

01:56:53.460 --> 01:56:56.460
did and you go home and you've learned something

01:56:56.460 --> 01:56:58.739
and you make your community better for having

01:56:58.739 --> 01:57:02.140
done that. So that's the hero's journey. And

01:57:02.140 --> 01:57:06.119
the movie Finding Joe documentary really outlines

01:57:06.119 --> 01:57:08.520
that. And then that's why this book is called

01:57:08.520 --> 01:57:13.079
Heroic Christianity. Joseph Campbell himself

01:57:13.079 --> 01:57:15.899
said that the hero's journey is a journey back

01:57:15.899 --> 01:57:21.010
to wholeness. So Heroic Christianity is... you

01:57:21.010 --> 01:57:24.909
know, my humble way of trying to get us back

01:57:24.909 --> 01:57:28.649
to wholeness, which is described as Eden. We

01:57:28.649 --> 01:57:31.810
start out in Eden, Adam and Eve get kicked out

01:57:31.810 --> 01:57:35.829
of there, and then nowhere in the history of

01:57:35.829 --> 01:57:38.649
mankind have we returned. So we're kind of in

01:57:38.649 --> 01:57:41.970
the middle of a hero's journey that is incomplete.

01:57:42.350 --> 01:57:45.930
And it is my humble wish that this book might

01:57:45.930 --> 01:57:48.789
help us in a little bit, a little way to help

01:57:48.789 --> 01:57:52.880
us complete that dream. Other documentaries,

01:57:53.100 --> 01:57:55.180
I'm featured in a really cool documentary called

01:57:55.180 --> 01:58:00.380
Dosed. You can find it at dosedmovie .com. And

01:58:00.380 --> 01:58:04.340
there's two parts. There's a part one and then

01:58:04.340 --> 01:58:06.539
there's a Dosed part two. I am in Dosed part

01:58:06.539 --> 01:58:09.800
one, which is all about one young woman's journey

01:58:09.800 --> 01:58:14.420
to use. ibogaine to come off of heroin another

01:58:14.420 --> 01:58:17.399
she was a polysubstance drug user it's an incredible

01:58:17.399 --> 01:58:20.380
movie and spoiler alert that woman is still doing

01:58:20.380 --> 01:58:25.279
really great adrienne and then i'm in a as i

01:58:25.279 --> 01:58:27.739
mentioned earlier there's a documentary coming

01:58:27.739 --> 01:58:31.760
up it'll be on netflix november 3rd it's called

01:58:31.760 --> 01:58:35.359
in waves and war and it really tracks marcus

01:58:35.359 --> 01:58:39.239
capone and two other navy seals dj shipley and

01:58:39.239 --> 01:58:43.630
maddie roberts on their their different timelines

01:58:43.630 --> 01:58:46.869
with ibogaine so maddie actually goes through

01:58:46.869 --> 01:58:50.750
a journey at ambio within the movie uh dj actually

01:58:50.750 --> 01:58:54.210
joins him on that and uh you know we hear about

01:58:54.210 --> 01:58:56.750
what happened to marcus and dj both in the past

01:58:56.750 --> 01:59:00.170
their first times doing it as well fantastic

01:59:01.000 --> 01:59:03.800
Well, speaking of great people, is there a person

01:59:03.800 --> 01:59:05.600
that you'd recommend to come on this podcast

01:59:05.600 --> 01:59:08.239
as a guest to speak to the first responders,

01:59:08.439 --> 01:59:10.779
military, and associated professions of the world?

01:59:10.960 --> 01:59:14.060
Have you had Gabor on? I haven't. I have tried.

01:59:14.279 --> 01:59:17.680
So if you have the ability. I can definitely

01:59:17.680 --> 01:59:23.859
put in a word for you, Gabor. Yeah, I would say

01:59:23.859 --> 01:59:30.489
Gabor Mate. My business partner, Jonathan Dickinson,

01:59:30.649 --> 01:59:32.810
when the time is right, when his book is maybe

01:59:32.810 --> 01:59:35.149
a little closer to coming out, he's got a lot

01:59:35.149 --> 01:59:37.770
of wisdom to share. And he is a psychedelic researcher.

01:59:38.069 --> 01:59:41.310
He knows he's been to Gabon. He has relationships

01:59:41.310 --> 01:59:44.189
with the country. He has been issued the first

01:59:44.189 --> 01:59:47.829
and only export license to legally export iboga

01:59:47.829 --> 01:59:52.430
out of Gabon. He's been initiated multiple times

01:59:52.430 --> 01:59:55.470
into the medicine. So you definitely want to

01:59:55.470 --> 01:59:58.659
speak to him as well. My other business partner,

01:59:58.760 --> 02:00:02.779
Jose Anzunza, he's a rock star as well. So there's

02:00:02.779 --> 02:00:07.340
four for you. And you said Jose was a paramedic.

02:00:07.340 --> 02:00:09.180
Have I got that right? Yeah, he's a paramedic.

02:00:09.180 --> 02:00:12.140
So paramedic and former firefighter as well.

02:00:12.260 --> 02:00:15.220
So he'd be perfect. Absolutely. All right. Well,

02:00:15.239 --> 02:00:16.920
let's make those happen if you're able to. That

02:00:16.920 --> 02:00:20.140
would be phenomenal. 100%. All right. Well, then

02:00:20.140 --> 02:00:21.520
the last question, which is going to be an interesting

02:00:21.520 --> 02:00:23.649
one for you. Before we go to where people can

02:00:23.649 --> 02:00:26.710
find you and Ambio, what do you do to decompress?

02:00:28.409 --> 02:00:36.770
I grew up in a house with a sauna, and I tongue

02:00:36.770 --> 02:00:40.130
-in -cheek will tell my friends and family I'm

02:00:40.130 --> 02:00:42.890
going to church, and they know that means I'm

02:00:42.890 --> 02:00:48.390
going into the sauna. In Tijuana, I don't plan

02:00:48.390 --> 02:00:50.390
on being here forever, so I didn't want to drop.

02:00:50.859 --> 02:00:53.859
you know six or seven grand on a sauna that i

02:00:53.859 --> 02:00:57.380
wouldn't be able to take with me but then the

02:00:57.380 --> 02:01:01.359
algorithm provided on instagram and i got one

02:01:01.359 --> 02:01:04.119
of those sauna boxes which is a little steam

02:01:04.119 --> 02:01:09.680
sauna so i use it all the time and then You know,

02:01:09.680 --> 02:01:11.699
kind of same thing with the cold plunge. I didn't

02:01:11.699 --> 02:01:14.180
want to break the bank. So I said the next time,

02:01:14.199 --> 02:01:17.180
the first time a cold plunge comes up here that's

02:01:17.180 --> 02:01:20.560
less than $1 ,500, I'm going to grab it. So I've

02:01:20.560 --> 02:01:24.199
got the sauna and cold plunge here. And those

02:01:24.199 --> 02:01:27.939
are incredible. Plus, I don't own a TV. I have,

02:01:28.060 --> 02:01:30.479
I'll watch the odd thing on my phone, especially

02:01:30.479 --> 02:01:33.909
when I'm on an airplane. I have a... kind of

02:01:33.909 --> 02:01:36.289
a projector thing I can pull out and watch every

02:01:36.289 --> 02:01:39.130
now and then as well. And I just read a lot of

02:01:39.130 --> 02:01:44.210
books. I read a lot of fiction now. I listen

02:01:44.210 --> 02:01:50.470
to nonfiction and I read a lot of fiction and

02:01:50.470 --> 02:01:53.869
I've really gotten into fantasy lately. Like

02:01:53.869 --> 02:01:59.609
for me, the joy of reading fiction is just how

02:01:59.609 --> 02:02:03.640
far can the human imagination go? And just to

02:02:03.640 --> 02:02:07.479
see some of these worlds and scenarios people

02:02:07.479 --> 02:02:11.699
come up with really inspires me. And it's a good

02:02:11.699 --> 02:02:14.140
way to end the day, the last half an hour reading

02:02:14.140 --> 02:02:17.880
a chapter for sure. Beautiful. All right. Well,

02:02:17.960 --> 02:02:20.739
then for people listening, where can they find

02:02:20.739 --> 02:02:23.100
Ambio? Where can they find you? And then if you

02:02:23.100 --> 02:02:26.300
want to talk to us about Malta. For sure. So

02:02:26.300 --> 02:02:31.180
ambio .life is the website. Like I say, currently.

02:02:31.800 --> 02:02:33.739
You just need to get to San Diego. It's very

02:02:33.739 --> 02:02:36.180
easy to get here. And we work with all these

02:02:36.180 --> 02:02:38.619
hard chargers, whether they're fire, whether

02:02:38.619 --> 02:02:42.100
they're special forces, but we work with plenty

02:02:42.100 --> 02:02:45.000
of regular people too. Anybody that's really

02:02:45.000 --> 02:02:48.340
looking for an advantage in life to help them

02:02:48.340 --> 02:02:50.939
heal. We're very good at getting people from

02:02:50.939 --> 02:02:54.380
minus 10 to zero. We're also very good at getting

02:02:54.380 --> 02:02:57.460
people from zero to plus 10. There's an optimization.

02:02:58.430 --> 02:03:00.930
thing that happens with this protocol as well

02:03:00.930 --> 02:03:04.270
traumatic brain injury if you hit your head if

02:03:04.270 --> 02:03:07.130
things aren't working for you if it's just drinking

02:03:07.130 --> 02:03:11.449
whatever it is it's it's don't be afraid to reach

02:03:11.449 --> 02:03:14.630
out we do have a location that's opening up in

02:03:14.630 --> 02:03:17.649
europe and that'll be in malta the island of

02:03:17.649 --> 02:03:22.310
malta and that should be open come january so

02:03:22.310 --> 02:03:24.850
if you wanted to be one of the first people to

02:03:24.850 --> 02:03:26.949
go through there you can reach out to us around

02:03:26.949 --> 02:03:34.539
that And we are on Instagram. At Ambio Life Sciences

02:03:34.539 --> 02:03:39.279
is the company. At psychedelic underscore provider

02:03:39.279 --> 02:03:45.119
is myself. And LinkedIn, Facebook, all that stuff

02:03:45.119 --> 02:03:47.359
as well. I haven't quite stepped into the TikTok

02:03:47.359 --> 02:03:51.680
world yet. Well, Trevor, I want to thank you

02:03:51.680 --> 02:03:53.859
so much. I mean, firstly, for what you've done,

02:03:53.960 --> 02:03:56.420
because there's no question that it was the SEAL

02:03:56.420 --> 02:03:58.399
community that really opened the door for the

02:03:58.399 --> 02:04:02.159
rest of us in uniform. But also for coming on

02:04:02.159 --> 02:04:04.720
the Behind the Shield podcast, being so generous

02:04:04.720 --> 02:04:06.939
with your time, being vulnerable about some of

02:04:06.939 --> 02:04:09.739
your experiences too. I know this is going to

02:04:09.739 --> 02:04:11.859
save a lot of lives. This is very early in the

02:04:11.859 --> 02:04:14.479
first responder conversation, but with Angela

02:04:14.479 --> 02:04:16.279
and some of the voices I've had on that have

02:04:16.279 --> 02:04:19.020
been kind of forging the path with that, I think

02:04:19.020 --> 02:04:21.199
the potential healing for our first responders,

02:04:21.300 --> 02:04:23.680
military, and as you mentioned, everyone else

02:04:23.680 --> 02:04:26.859
is so incredibly exciting. So I want to thank

02:04:26.859 --> 02:04:28.760
you so, so much for coming on the show today.

02:04:29.180 --> 02:04:31.020
Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been a

02:04:31.020 --> 02:04:32.939
lot of fun. Thanks for taking the time to have

02:04:32.939 --> 02:04:34.699
a really good conversation. Thanks, James.