Welcome guys to episode 106 of Behind the Shield
podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing.
And this week I bring to you a man who was recommended
by one of my past guests, Peter Park. And I've
also enjoyed his podcast, which is called Finding
Mastery. And my guest is Dr. Michael Gervais.
Now, Dr. Gervais is a renowned sports psychologist.
He's worked with many, many of the world's top
athletes. And I was fortunate enough to pick
his brains and see how it pertains to the first
responders, the soldiers of the world. So we
delved into many topics. We talked about the
psychology of fear, flow state, how that tribal
teamwork affects the outcome in the sports world,
and obviously how we can apply it to the first
responder community, and just an array of other
topics that really, really tested me and made
me look at the way I think in my own self -talk.
And I definitely walked away from this realizing
that I've been doing some destructive thinking
myself. And it really kind of renewed the way
I look at the internal monologue. So I really,
really enjoyed this. So as I always say, please
go to the iTunes, rate the show, share the show.
That's the biggest thing. Just share. Help this
project. Get to everyone that needs to hear it
and just share and share and share. Find an episode
that you love and send it to everyone you know.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Dr.
Michael Gervais. Enjoy. So, Dr. Gervais, thank
you so much for coming on to the Behind the Shield
podcast. The opening question I always have is
where are we finding you today? Oh, first of
all, thank you for having me. I'm honored to
be part of your community. And I'm currently
in Hermosa Beach in my office and in Southern
California. Okay, and were you born there or
somewhere else? No, I was actually born in a
small town in Virginia. And I spent the first
handful of years there. And then my family moved
west in, I think it was fourth grade. And then
fourth grade onward, I've lived in California.
Okay, brilliant. Now, I always delve into this
a little bit if it's okay. What was your family
unit like? What did your mom and dad do? And
how many siblings did you have? So mom and dad,
so I have one sister. That's the easiest place
to start. Mom and dad. Mom stayed and ran the
family and dad early on pretty much worked for
corporate America and worked his way through
that ecosystem. But then also had very early
days, had a strong commitment around the house
because we moved into the country and there was
no streetlights. I mean, we were out in the boonies.
There was a commitment around making sure the
family system was right, but he also had a corporate
job at the same time. Right. Now, was that in
California in the boonies or in Virginia? That
was in Virginia. Yeah. So that's where I feel
like I got some roots in Virginia. Like, I mean,
it was literally just way out in the middle of
nowhere. It's a small town called Warrington,
which is built up quite a bit now. But when we
were there 40 some years ago, it was tiny. Then
in California, you know, he was becoming more
successful in the corporate world. And so I organically
saw that happen. Right. Okay. Well, I want to
ask a question because I had Sebastian Junger
on twice now. And one of the things he writes
about is the tribal mentality. And I love delving
into that. And so I myself, I grew up on a farm
in a somewhat small town as well. Did you find
that you had that tribal? I don't know what the
right word would be, that tribal element going
on in Virginia. And did you find that you lost
it when you went to suburban America in California?
What we had in Virginia was a family unit with
some sparse neighbors. And so, no, I didn't have
a travel thing there. It was a family unit first,
but we're a small family of four. And then my
grandparents were not far down the road, so there's
a little bit of extended family there. So no,
not a tribal thing. And then I didn't have a
tribal thing in early days growing up in California.
And I think the first tribe I was ever part of
was my community of friends in high school when
we were... And our mutual interests were around
surfing and getting better and progression. And
so that was the first kind of tribal experience.
And I loved it. I loved being part of it. You
know, a community where people know each other,
support each other, challenging each other, ripping
each other. You know, like I just love that.
And I just naturally kind of crave that community.
And so it's not something I had early days, but
high school, relatively early days, I guess you'd
say. Okay, well, as a psychologist yourself,
is that something that you've had any observations
on as far as society in general? What do you
mean? With regards to a tribal element being
a positive experience in some areas of our sociology,
I guess you could say, missing that, especially
with electronics and maybe that being one of
the underlying issues that we have. You know,
it's a good question because... We are social
by nature and social media is not necessarily
helping that but we are social beings and I'm
in an airport more than I'd like to be and walking
through the airport You can see what's happening
because a thin slice of the way that we're engaging
we hurry up to get somewhere to sit down to look
to see what other people are doing and Our postures
stoop the whole thing, you know, people are really
in this Funky little space instead of reading
magazines or reading newspapers. We're reading
and looking at images But then there's another
layer that takes place is that like let's say
that a couple is sitting next to each other They're
flipping through their phone looking at social
media and then but then they'll say hey look
at this Look at this and it's a funny little
something or a check out what Johnny's doing
So there is a social engagement that is binding
people that are already intimate relationships
And then there's this fringe thing that's happening
where we're connected to people we haven't seen
for a long time or might not even begin to know.
So there's this fringe social engagement that's
taking place. There's an intimate connection
as a talk track that's happening around social
engagement. But I'm not sure it's ever going
to replace eye contact. It's never going to replace
the neurochemistry exchange when somebody talks
about something intimate or scary or difficult.
And so I'm not mad about social media in any
ways. We are social beings. But at the same time,
I think there's a balance that we need to look
for between checking in what others are doing
and checking in what ourselves are doing and
checking in with our intimate loved. And so the
tribal piece for me is like a deep, a much deeper
commitment than a social gathering. You know,
it's not like this, just the social gathering
is cool. It's fun. It's whatever a group of people
get together for. An experience, but then there's
a team and a team is like, okay, we're gonna
work together We're gonna try to figure something
out and layer deepers tribe where it's like we're
in it, you know And that's very much a family
feel and that that is rare, you know, that is
a really rare thing, right? Well, I mean obviously
you've worked with many many uh just successful
people in general but you have worked with a
lot of teams um can you think of any specific
uh examples of where that tribal element was
missing and therefore they weren't successful
versus one where due to that tribal element they
were very successful well countless you know
and before i got to the women's national team
in volleyball the u .s women's national team
they were a high performing team kicking ass
top you know top ranked in the in the world ended
up taking a silver in the olympics so that's
not bad however they lacked a community they
were performance razor edged and about their
communication their relationships and the way
they fit together so the tribe was dangerous
to each other if you will and then um So they
wanted to do some purposeful work around it.
So I was fortunate enough to spend time with
them in the last quad, not the current quad,
but the last quad heading into Rio. And they
got the tribe right. They got the community right.
And they really knew each other, supported each
other, challenged each other, were on the journey
together, and did great. But they didn't get
the outcome that we had hoped for. Everyone's
vying for better than silver, for gold, if you
will. And we ended up getting a bronze. Now,
I'll say that the community was really strong
and the experience was worthwhile. And when I
asked some of the gals about their experience
in the previous quad versus this quad. So when
they got a silver and it was hard, there was
no real meaningfulness in relationships. And
then getting a bronze, but felt connected. And
most of them, if not. I think there's just one
that said otherwise, contrary to the statement.
They said, oh, yeah, this is way better. The
four years was great. Yeah, you know, I think
we underperformed a little bit. But damn, like
the four years was awesome. And I've got lifelong
friends. And, you know, like I learned so much
about myself and how I work and others work in
closely organizations. And I'm going to use this
stuff in business later. So and family raising,
you know, later. So, you know, that's got a little
bit of both in there. And I don't think it's
ever as clean as if you have a tight tribal community
that you're going to win a lot. I think that
you give yourself a better chance to maximize
the output, but it doesn't mean that the output's
going to necessarily yield in results. So I hope
that's not too complicated. Not at all. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. So that's a pretty simple thought,
I think. Brilliant. Because the reason I ask,
and I'm... so involved in this particular concept
is in a firehouse, obviously in a military unit
as well, that tribal element is very important.
If we're a cohesive unit, then we're going to
effectively rescue or save whatever individual
we've gone into to help. But if there is a breakdown
in the tribal element, just within the firehouse
itself, whether it's cleaning or cooking, or
people not talking to each other because they're
on their phones or separate bedrooms. I see,
just in my own eyes, a direct result when it
comes to the fire ground operations. So I think
there's a yearning in my profession to bring
that tribal element back, that brotherhood that
we talk about. So it's always interesting to
go to the sports world and see that cause and
effect of that cohesive team and then the success,
like you said, whether it's actually the medal
they're looking for or just playing very well
together and having a positive experience. Well,
you know, okay. So James, I, you know, it's funny
because you're looking to the sport team and
I don't think you're going to find it. You know,
I think what you guys have is way, what do I
want to say? It's, um, you're grounded in something
that is deeper. And so saving lives is far deeper
than winning trophies. And so I'm not sure you're
going to find it in the sport world. We work
our ass off to get to team. to go from group
to team. And to get from team to tribe is rare.
It's a rare space. And to do that, I think there's
some extraordinary things that need to happen.
One, the environment needs to be situated properly
where people can really get to know each other.
And it's not just about performance -driven outcomes.
That is where I've learned so much from Coach
Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks, is the environment
that he creates that is relationship -based.
That sets the stage for tribe. But we need to
have shared experiences that are hard and feel
like it's as authentic as war, which it never
will be. Never will be. It will never be as real
as saving a human's life that you experience
on a regular basis. So our regard, my regard
for sure, is for you guys that the pedestal's
very high for you guys. I'm not sure sport will
get you there. Sport will get you on some practices
that will help coalesce people, to get people
to think in similar ways. But I'm not sure that
it can ever replace what you guys naturally have.
So I think you're better situated than we are,
if that is a long way to say that short little
phrase. Yeah, no, that's great. It's interesting
to hear that perspective with the mirror face
the other way around. Well, I want to delve into
that a little bit. So you spoke very positively
of your experience with surfing. So does that
tie into when you first became aware of the power
of the mind in the sport performance world? Oh,
yeah. So I was a young kid and super green, really
just wanted to get better. And I had this natural
inclination to get better, to put the work in,
to be out in the ocean. to take as many risks
as I can, get myself scared every day, and working
actively to get fearful and fatigued. Those are
the two things I was looking for. But then as
soon as the lights turned on and the judges were
there and family members were showing up and
there was judging and there's quote -unquote
pressure, which is just a ridiculous thought
as an adult now to me, that I just was a shell
of myself. I didn't think right. I couldn't feel
my body right. I was so tense and nervous that
I couldn't do what I normally could do on a regular
basis. And that's when I first felt that pain,
that uncomfortableness led to a pain. And I said,
what is going on? It's not my surfing ability.
It's the way that I think about myself. And that's
when it started to snap into place. Like, hey,
how do I get better at this thing? Because I'm
an anxious mess right now. Like, it was awful.
And I think, Greg, you've probably been there,
too. I don't know. I would imagine that, you
know, James, you felt that. And, you know, I
don't know. That's where it started for me. Okay.
So you're in that mess point because I can absolutely
agree with that. And it's funny, I just had a
conversation with a fellow fireman the other
day. And what we see now is a fusion of the stresses
and the fears and the exhaustion emotionally
and physically that some of these men and women
have. starting to intermingle with that anxiety.
And then that creates a fear of doing tasks before
they would have been okay doing. So I really
want to delve into that as we go along. But so
what was it that you started changing to minimize
that performance anxiety that you were having?
Well, at the time, I didn't know what to do.
So I just had the awareness that, oh, there's
something here. And looking back, it's led me
to this thought that there's only three things
as humans we can train, maybe four. But for right
now, from a science standpoint, I'm going to
say three. You can train your craft, you can
train your body, and you can train your mind.
That's it. So no longer are the best in the world
leaving the mindset piece or the mental skills
piece up to chance. And so they're investing
in very sophisticated ways to train their mind.
But at that point, 30 -some years ago, I had
no clue where to go. I don't think really anyone.
Strike that. It's not that there wasn't anyone.
It was just the beginning of an industry thinking
about the science of how the extraordinary mind
works. So for the histories of psychology, it
was about how the broken mind works. And so I
didn't know. And so I just started studying the
mind. And the only thing that was really available
to me was some fringe kind of tapes from... pop
psychology -esque type folks that were talking
about motivation. I'll leave the names out because
it wasn't grounded in good enough science to
warrant what they were talking about. And then
the dysfunctional mind, like how schizophrenia
or bipolar or depression or anxiety. But it wasn't
until about 40 years ago where the emergence
of science became... interesting to scientists.
And it wasn't until like the last 20 years that
it became pop awareness where it was pop culture
to it. Like how did the best and the best of
the best train their minds? And so the easy answer
for your thoughtful question was, I didn't know.
I just thought that there was something there
I should train. And I just started learning about
the mind, but it was mostly about the dysfunctional
mind. And eventually I found the graduate school
track about sports psychology and how elite athletes,
the science of how elite athletes condition their
mind. But that wasn't until another 15 years
later. So what were you doing career -wise at
that point? Well, I barely got out of high school.
High school was not a good fit for me. I didn't
learn right. Let me say it better. I wasn't interested
in learning the things that were offering in
formal education. And so I was not a good high
school student. So I barely got out of high school.
And I didn't have the grades, nor did I take
an SAT or a PSAT. I went surfing on both of them.
So there's no way I could get into college. My
parents gave me this ultimatum that either I
get a job and move out or I go to community college.
So I knew I could go to school and keep surfing,
so I went to community college. It was a little
private school called Marymount College that
was a two -year program. And it was just like,
I don't know. three golf ball pitches away from
a really good surf break. So that's where I went.
But what ended up happening is that I fell in
love, literally fell in love with, you know,
the invisible and philosophy became interesting.
Theology became really interesting, the science
of like spiritual practices. And then psychology
was like a little bit more concrete than both
of them. And so I love all three of those and
how they work. And so I started really becoming
interested in the science of psychology. So that's
how it happened for me. And then once I caught
wind of it, no one ever had to ask me to read
another book again in psychology. Like I was
reading as much as I could get my hands on. And
I'm not a reader. That's not, you know, that's
not how I was born. But I was like, oh, I don't
know if I was born that way. It's a little bit
too much. But that's not who I was at that time.
But I did like to learn and I wanted to figure
things out. And I was interested in improvement.
And so, I mean, that's a long story to get to
it. Yeah. It's funny you use that example because
I was the same way. I didn't struggle in school,
but I did not enjoy school at all. And I was
a straight, you know, C student at best. But
then when I went through fire school and paramedic
school, I was a straight A student. And it's,
again, that underlying thing that I know you
talk a lot about, which is understanding your
why, that burning desire inside you of what you're
really meant to do on this earth. Yeah, that's
exactly it. And you know what? That's hard. That's
a difficult thing to wrestle with. I was talking
with Bob Hurley yesterday and Bob Hurley is the
founder of Hurley Clothing. And like, I mean,
it's a Billabong, Quicksilver, Hurley, Volcom.
Those are some of the big brands in surfing.
And I was fortunate enough to sit down with Bob
Hurley and he says, every day I think about my
purpose. So somebody who's made a global. impact
on the surf industry and the clothing company
is still thinking about purpose. I've just found
that so remarkable. And so it's a hard question
to think about. What am I doing here? What is
my purpose? And there's no shortcut to that.
And it really does. Clarity of that comes from
asking that question a lot, writing it down,
talking about it with wise people and seeing
how it snaps together with what you are actually
competent at doing. You know, because if your
purpose is if you think your purpose is to make
guitars, but you've got a bunch of thumbs and
you can't hold a screwdriver very well and your
artistic eye and your ear is out of whack, you
know, are all compromised, then it's going to
be hard to make things that are going to purposefully
change the world. You know, so there's got to
be some sort of competency. There's got to be
some sort of relationship piece to it. And then
the ability to have the autonomy to choose the
way that you think. the way that you organize
your actions, and those three things, competency,
autonomy, and relatedness, are all drivers for
deep motivation. And that's the work of DC and
Ryan, DCI is the last name, DC and Ryan, and
their work on motivation. Brilliant. Well, that's
an interesting point that you bring up as well,
because what we see in the fire service, you
have your absolute go -getters that are... 25
years in and still just enamored with the job
and training every day but you get a very large
portion in the middle you get the bottom portion
that probably should never have been in the job
in the first place and i'll just say that now
but um there's a middle portion that are are
swayed depending on their environment if they're
around a bunch of go -getters they'll probably
be more fired up but there are some some um some
factors physiologically that definitely um are
challenges to motivation as well and we'll get
into that in a little bit but when when you have
an individual i know you don't just work with
sports athletes you work with a whole array of
people how do you nurture maintaining that motivation
that people initially had and they truly were
doing their burning desire their passion but
10 years later you know whether it's a business
that's beating them down whether it's like my
profession with the seat deprivation and the
cause that you know maybe we shouldn't be running
that kind of thing how do you Keep that inspiration
internally yourself without relying on other
people to to carry you through that career It's
the right question James. That's a right question
because external conditions are important and
being around people that are vibrant and are
switched on and Are hungry is I mean it's worth
its weight in platinum for sure that being said
it's not enough And it does need to come from
within. And my experience is like, what does
that mean? That's why I go back to the, to DC
and Ryan's approach called the self -determination
theory is, you know, are you working on master
competency, right? Do you, are you really feeling
authentically yourself? Do you have the autonomy
that, because when people don't feel autonomous,
they get bitter. When they feel like they're
doing things that they should be doing for approval
or doing things that others think they should
be doing for the job, people get bitter and they
get pissed and they get anxious and they get
a bit overwhelmed about things. And if we don't
have good relationships that are stimulating
and are lined up to help us get better, it becomes
really challenging to have that inner drive,
that inner fire, if you will, stay flamed. I
take a look at deep dive at those three. And
then I take a look at fear and fatigue. And if
I'm not recovering properly, it's, it's, it's
nearly impossible to stay the course. So fear
and fatigue are big deals and, you know, managing
those. So like really, you know, taking care
of the system and the fear thing is also critical.
So the fear piece is making sure that we are
thinking properly about this moment and making
sure that we're connected to this moment on a
regular basis rather than worrying about all
the things that could go wrong. So those are
the two things, or the five, I guess, if you
will, that I think about a lot. The recovery,
the sleep is so important. I know that you just
did a blog recently about that. But it's something
that the first responders of the world, every
third day or whatever, if they're a PD, they're
on these rotating shifts. In their career, they're
literally missing years of sleep over a 25, 30
year career. And so this recovery is absolutely
contributing to the mental ill health, the physical
ill health. And so I kind of want to just, without
loading the question, for your athletes, for
your business people, for all your other clients,
if you wouldn't mind, just explain to me. in
your opinion uh the the value of the sleep and
um you know the the detriments of of missing
that sleep great topic and i think people will
be surprised we pull back the curtain on elite
athletics and elite sport and you know really
show you how we think and what we talk about
i think you'd be surprised about how much we
actually talk about recovery and the science
and art of recovery is square one Because if
bodies break down, minds follow quickly. And
vice versa as well. If minds break down because
of monotony and the strain is so high that people
don't recover in a thinking strategy, the bodies
break down. So everyone on the world stage pushes
hard. That's not a question. Everyone's working
hard. So it's not a question of work harder.
That feels stupid to talk about we need to work
harder. Yes, everybody works hard. So the intelligent,
competitive, advanced organizations are talking
about intelligent recovery. So we want to get
for every unit of strain, we want to have an
equal unit of recovery. It's that simple. Now,
what's a unit of strain and what's a unit of
recovery? That's where the art is. That's where
the science and art meet together. But for some
basic things like, you know, okay, so there's
five basic primary recovery strategies. First
is sleep right. That's the biggest one now. If
you don't sleep right, your brain does something
very funny. It says, ooh, okay, we're not consolidating
properly. We're not recovering properly. So if
we're going to have to put a big output out,
you know what we're going to do? We're just going
to lower the level of normal functioning. And
so our brain does a very sneaky, slippery thing.
is that it creates a new normal, but that new
normal is suboptimal. And it's a strategy to
conserve energy so we don't blow ourselves up.
And so we become better at maybe moderate ways
of living, but we don't provide enough to have
optimal ways of living. And so sleep is the big
banger. You got to get it in. If you can't get
it in, there's no excuse for the other variables,
which is eat and hydrate well, move well. Think
in optimal ways, optimism, you know, and I can
go on and on about some of the think well strategies
and then be in a community of people that are
like minded and vibrant and on it. So those are
the recovery pieces together. And it's silly
to think that we can play the long game in an
optimized way when we're grinding ourselves to
a nub. Now, again, I want to just make this point.
If you can't get sleep because of the rhythm
of your job. or you've got a sleeping disorder,
then get the other three right. Get the other
four right. See if you can lock in two of the
other five, three of the other five. Lock them
in. There's no excuse in modern day worlds to
not eat and hydrate properly. That's laziness.
That's choosing comfort rather than performance.
And I'll tell you, I've got just a low threshold
of tolerance for that. Because people want to
say, you know, I'm not getting enough sleep.
Okay, okay, I get it. Well, how are you doing
on eating? Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Oh, good.
Would you have for breakfast? I had some bacon
and eggs. What are you talking about? What do
you mean? So cholesterol and fat and bad fat?
Like that's what you did? Come on. Yeah, no,
absolutely. And that's what I try and do with
this project. I always talk about this being
a double -edged sword. So there's the ownership
component. And, you know, I try and walk the
walk. I'm certainly not perfect by any means,
but I try and, you know, show people that I'm
eating well, that I'm exercising, that I'm taking
classes and all these other things. mindful practice.
But then there's the other side, which is the
environment that a lot of these men and women
are working under, where the sleep deprivation
is definitely something that the employer needs
to change. A lot of these men and women are working
56 hour weeks and then getting mandatory, you
know, for another 24 in that week. And so it's
really setting them up for failure. And I don't
think it's something that people are doing maliciously,
but I just don't think there's a great understanding
in the sleep medicine world of the negative effects.
of the lack of sleep. And so when we see, you
know, the vehicle collisions in the fire service
and, you know, obviously the actual deaths of
the first responders, be it suicide or heart
attacks, you start bringing that all in. And
like you said, there's the one component, which
is the ownership. Well, how are you eating before
you got ill? But then the other side is the sleep
as well. So my goal is to inspire the men and
women to take care of themselves and all the
elements that they can do. But just like you
said. then encourage them to start working on
their employer as to the environment and educate
them that some of these environments that they're
working under are creating setting them up for
failure instead of success yeah flat out you
know that's great and it's not easy i'll tell
you that you know like with travel and alarms
and and it's not there's I'm fortunate enough
to spend time with elite organizations like Fortune
100 franchises that have a global footprint,
and they have many of the same issues. So they're
not first responder type stuff where they're
woke up at three in the morning. Actually, there
are some groups that are problem solvers that
have to do that, and they talk about they're
on four -hour stints. Four hours here, four hours
there, every night, broken four hours. And it's
just, it's really hard. So your environment is
unique that my, from the cheap seats, it's like,
I don't know if there could be something more
important than figuring out how to optimize recovery
during the day. And that would be mindfulness.
That would literally meditation as part of the
practice. It would be napping. It would be kick
-ass food. Like without a doubt, it'd be investing
in optimal ways of thinking because we know pessimistic,
anxious, frustrated. Intolerant people spend
more energy when they're awake than those that
are optimistic grounded presence and and have
a high threshold for irritability and so Flat
-out investing in thinking strategies or mindset
training as we call it, you know is definitely
an advantage Brilliant. All right. Well, I've
heard you talking about optimism, so I'd love
to elaborate a bit because you and please correct
me if I'm wrong, but you talk about the relationship
between fear and optimism. Is that correct? And
if so, if you wouldn't mind elaborating on it.
So, OK, well, let me just start with optimism
first. Optimism and pessimism are learned behaviors.
So there might be some proclivity in genetic
coding to. to come into the world a bit anxious
but we haven't found a signature that says oh
this type of people are optimistic or this type
of genome is you know mapping towards pessimism
it's not that way so we think it best best go
it's a learned behavior which begs the question
who did you learn it from and if you learned
it primarily from let's say your parents which
most people learn their psychological framework
from their parents and early experiences, and
then don't change them until there's some sort
of crisis, mini crisis, or deep desire to grow.
Let's say your parents were just flat out amazing,
and they really came from a trusting place, and
they were pretty much optimistic in general.
You're likely going to be an optimist, which
means that you're going to look into the world,
to your future. So optimism, pessimism, sorry,
let me get the definition, is the way that you,
the lenses that you view the future through.
And optimism is like, this idea that something
good is about to take place. So let me explore.
Pessimism is the lenses that things don't work
out. So I don't think it's going to work out
for me. And I will tell you that I have not met,
is that the right way to say this? Let me be
more positive the way I say it. 100 % of the
best in the world that I've worked with have
an optimistic frame. Of course they believe if
they apply their efforts that it's going to work
out. Why would they put their ass out there?
Why would they strain and try so hard? They fundamentally
believe that good things happen to them. And
it's an amazing experience that's right around
the corner. And that's why, you know, for the
most part, you see people compete to the very
end. Now, some organizations and some people,
they get information that comes into their system
through their senses. They see something like
they're down by 40 points or they feel something
like, oh, those guys are just. they're outmatching
us and they start to go into a pessimistic frame
and that's actually not like totally pessimistic
it's just being judgmental and trying to save
one's um exposure to pain so they throw in the
towel early and well i don't i don't want to
be part of them i don't think you do either i
would i would bet that most first responders
have an optimistic frame and then but probably
could use some benefit of sharpening that to
make sure that the cynical nature that some organizations
like to have, which is fun. There can be fun
and sarcasm and cynicism, but it can become this
kind of pervasive thing that chips away at a
fundamental optimism. So again, let me go back
to my point. Optimism and pessimism are learned.
It begs the question, who did you learn it from?
And if you are pessimistic or have some sort
of that way about yourself, it is useful, we
think, to invest in training optimism. So how
do you train optimism? Well, if you take a look
at good science, there's some really good research
out of UPenn that suggests that just finding
and exploring and writing down three amazing
things every day and just writing those things
down could be considered a way to train optimism.
And so that's one of the ways that we think about
it. We hold people accountable to finding what's
amazing in their life and talking about it or
writing it down. And that's actually a training
mechanism. You can do that socially. In a tribe
or you could do it individually and how does
it relate to anxiety back to your point? Is that
those that scan the world and find things pervasively
that are going to go wrong certainly should Be
more interest because they're more connected
to all the things that could go wrong Those that
scan the world and find what could be amazing.
It could be great and it's based in reality not
some naive approach They live in a little bit
more grounded safe world. Literally their world
is a little bit safer and so Those are some ways
to think about optimism, pessimism, and anxiety.
I love that because I think, for example, let's
take the training ground that we have. I know
there's a resistance to training sometimes because
people are afraid to quote -unquote look stupid,
make mistakes. But I think with an optimistic
mindset, you already know that if you make a
mistake, you're going to learn from it, so you're
just going to grow anyway. And I think that that
separates that from the people that are, I guess,
pessimistic in a way that they're more worried
about their pride and shame than they are the
ultimate result, which is being able to save
that life when you're relied on to do so. Yeah.
And if you think about most of your crew, I bet
they don't run. By the way, my dad lived in a
firehouse for a number of years when he was growing
up. So I've got stories in my mind about. you
know, from a distance about what it's like in
your world. Yeah. And so I bet most don't look
at a situation and go, okay, so guys, uh, this
probably isn't going to work out, you know, a
little, you know, it's probably not, but you
guys have to use good judgment. You have to look
at the situation and say, you know what? It's
too much. It is too much. Like us going in is,
is, it's not the right way to do things, you
know, but I bet for the most part. Most people
are optimistic in your world. But there is anxiety
that is a second cousin, if you will, to optimism.
But anxiety is a separate skill that can be trained
as well. Right. Well, I want to feed into that
if we can. So me personally, and I'll just give
you my anecdote, and then you tell me if I'm
an anomaly or this is actually some solid science
to it. have you know the the i would say the
natural anxiety towards um almost like an imposter
syndrome like i'm gonna fail but the overriding
thing is but so there i compensate for it by
training and the training to me removes the fear
because when that kind of conscious mind gets
thrown back when when the emergency comes in
and you're literally almost uh acting automatically
after the fact i look back and go okay my training
you know my training did work so that that kind
of anxiety went away do you find that in all
the people that you train that one of the best
ways of combating fear and anxiety is just to
train in the first place well you've got okay
partly right so what yeah you can't you can't
fake anything because you know you're faking
it you know that you haven't done the real work
So it's partly right. So proper preparation is
a requirement, but it's not enough, right? It's
necessary but not sufficient. And the reason
it's necessary but not sufficient is because
anxiety comes from an excessive worry about what
could go wrong. What is the anecdote for anxiety
is confidence, which is a relationship that you
have with yourself about what you think you can
do. So anxiety, I'm sorry, confidence only comes
from one place, which is not your preparation.
It comes from what you say to yourself about
your preparation in relationship to the demands
that are coming down the pipe. Okay, so if you
haven't done the work, you probably should be
nervous. Okay, like in life, if you know, and
in performance, you haven't done the work, you
probably should be nervous. If you've done the
work, and you know that the work has been solid,
and you Have a way of maintaining your integrity
about your skills, what your skills actually
are. And you say, you know what? My skills are
X. The demand coming down in this event are X
plus one. I think I can do that. But if you say
that my skills are X and you perceive the demands
of the environment to be X plus 10, you probably
should be very nervous. So self -talk is essential.
And self -talk has to be credible. Based on what
you've experienced and done in your past as an
estimate of what you can do in the future So
that I mean, it's a kind of a technical way to
think about your relationship to training But
I've seen plenty of people that are they put
in blood sweat and tears flat -out They've trained
their ass off to do what they do and then I'm
thinking right now of cage fighting and In the
gym on the mat, they're incredible and they put
in the right work And in the back warm -up ready
room, they are feeling pretty good, but they've
got some elevated nervousness or anxiousness
going on. And then by the time they walk up the
five steps to get into the cage, they've given
themselves away. They've turned over and exposed
their soft belly because of what they've been
saying to themselves for the last 45 minutes
to an hour and a half. And so the success alone,
the preparation and even past success is not
enough. You've got to really have that heartiness
about yourself, that steeliness to say, bullshit,
like I put in the work, let's go. I'm here to
test my skills. And this is what I've decided
to do with my life. This is what I've trained
for. And I don't have all the answers. And I,
because of that, I need to figure out how to
love the unknown. And those that are anxious,
they don't really love. what they do. They don't
really love it. What they love is relief. What
they love is the escape that happens when it's
over. And they feel good about it. And they love
what the thing does for them. Not what not the
actual grinding of figuring out, do I have skills,
they're more afraid of what other people think
of them than the actual love of being tested.
And so, you know, I I say all this to you right
now, and I know your community is going, what
is he talking about? Because there's an old thought
that I'm battling, and it's been around for hundreds
of years. Nervousness is okay. It means you care.
No, no, that's wrong. That comes from a very
unsophisticated place. That's not right. Your
system should turn on. You should have an alarm
phase that kicks on when something is important
to you. Fight, flight, freeze, submission, or
flow state are all options. And so, yes, your
system should turn on and knowing what to do
with that arousal switching on adrenaline thing
is what a somebody who has mastery of self is
all about. It does not mean nervousness. It means
readiness. But if you don't know what to do with
the internal activation and you feel your body,
you say to yourself, oh, shit, maybe I'm not
ready. That's just that's a that's literally
an untrained, undisciplined mind. And so I feel
like I'm. I got to get off my little soapbox
here. I get so animated because I've been, I
felt all the pain that so many people have felt.
And I wish I knew what I know now that at age
15 and 25 even, you know, it is not hard. It's
not hard to train your mind. It's not. And, but
we've got these old thinking patterns that, you
know, I don't know. They just slow us down. It's
not some of our. psychological framework models
that have been passed down from ancestors, our
ancestors are not good for us. Yeah, no, you
absolutely, you haven't been, you know, every
single word that you've said is going to resonate
deeply because there are people that are put
in the work that are still terrified of heights,
you know, that, you know, a great firefighters
that, that their knees start knocking at 10 feet
up. And so it's an interesting thing to explore
because the, I guess the Neanderthal in all of
us is just, you know, calling them a bunch of
profanity and then tell them to get their scared
ass up the ladder, you know. But it's interesting
to see, to delve deeper and see, okay, well,
what can we get them to do, like you said, with
the self -talk while we're doing this training
that's going to increase their resilience? Yeah,
so that's a nice one. So it's actually not increasing
resilience. It's increasing capacity. So resiliency
is going through difficult times and being able
to bounce back. Right. Right. So like that, that
what you're describing is not resiliency. What
you're describing is building the capacity. And
there's two capacities to build. One capacity
is awareness of your inner dialogue and the skill
to choose great thoughts that you can train that.
Right. That's not hard to do. The second capacity
is the awareness of your arousal levels, heart
rate, you know, your body being switched on and
then the skill to manage that. And those are
both mental skills that we're talking about.
So awareness comes first and then skills. So
what helps people calm down, breathe? What helps
people become more aware of their arousal levels?
Mindfulness. What helps people, you know, the
skill of speaking well to yourself? That's self
-talk. What helps people become more aware of
their inner self -talk? Mindfulness. It's not
hard, but let's just use the latter example for
a moment before I go to the more concrete example.
Good science would suggest anywhere between eight
minutes and 20 minutes of investing in a mindfulness
practice to increase, to create some real change.
And if you do it once, you're not going to get
much change. If you do it for a month, you'll
get a little bit of change. You do it for six
months, you'll see some stuff. You do it for
six years, you're going to really notice a difference.
And the whole game. before i get to the concreteness
is to go from training a skill to having a state
an optimized state more often so from skill to
state and then from state once we have an optimized
state more often it just might turn into an enduring
trait where it becomes a signature strength of
yours that's reliable and durable and so from
skill to state to trait is kind of the arc that
we're looking for and you know for I would encourage
you to go down the path of using something super
concrete about ladder climbing or heights and
do some searching on systematic desensitization.
And it's a great evidence -based protocol about
how to train somebody that has a fear response.
If they get up to five steps and that's where
their knees start to shake, well, get them to
four, teach them how to think properly. and then
how to breathe properly and they don't get to
go to step five until they're calm and they get
to step five and their knees start to shake that
right and they're rattling okay well then they
need to think right and breathe right and be
in that moment and they can't go down or up until
they master a sense of control on step five and
then if and then they can get they can go down
or they can go to six and they start to rattle
at six same thing Go back to the thinking strategies
to optimize them and the breathing until they
get calm. Systematic desensitization, great program,
evidence -based, really clean. There's four or
five steps prior to what I just described to
you in that protocol, but it's really nice. Fantastic.
Yeah, I think that would be very helpful to a
lot of people because we challenge ourselves
in so many ways. And obviously the PD side, those
guys have the fact that someone's trying to kill
them is the main thing. For us, whether it's
going down tight spaces, climbing through a collapsed
building, going up an elevation, there's so many
challenges to the nervous system that you really
do have to get controlled. So if you're claustrophobic
or you fear of heights or you're scared of water,
there's all these elements that we have to overcome.
So I'm sure there'll be a lot of people listening
to this that would really find that important.
So thank you. So you touched on the state. I
want to go all the way to the other side now.
And I hear this phrase all the time. And I think...
I think I experienced it maybe a few times in
emergencies, but one time as an athlete, I was
a taekwondo practitioner years ago. And I remember
a specific fight where I could visualize exactly
what the person was going to do before they did
it, reacted accordingly, went from being, I think
it was eight points to zero deficit to knocking
this guy down, ended up winning the fight. And
I'm assuming that was what they call a flow state.
So would you mind educating me as to what a flow
state is and how that applies in life in general?
Sure. It's not complicated, you know, as an experience
because you've already had it. And you know what
it feels like to be at your very best. And there's
a distortion of time that happens for most people.
But 80 % of people in flow state have a distortion
of time, which is like, whoa, that was 45 minutes
or oh, my God. It felt like those 10 seconds
felt like an hour. Like I felt like I could do
anything I wanted inside those 10 seconds. So
it's when you, excuse me, I just gasped for air.
It's literally when you are at your best. And
that's what a flow state is. It's the most optimized
experience a person can be in. And so. How do
you get there more often? Well, it's a big part
of the inner game, which is interpreting your
environment to be challenging and honoring that
you have the skills to match that demand. It
is embracing the unknown and the risk that comes
with that. It's having very clear goals about
what it is that you need to do or want to do
and how you want to do it. It's being in an environment
where the feedback loops are rich so that you
know from a moment -to -moment feedback loop
how you're doing. Those are some of the conditions
that precede and can be actually manipulated,
if you will, and trained to increase the frequency
of flow state. Again, I want to come back to
mindfulness. There's a nice little piece of research
that those that practice mindfulness have an
increased frequency and flow state. And so mindfulness
a la meditation is what most people call it,
is a low threshold entry to threshold training.
You don't even have to break a sweat. You just
have to basically sit still or walk mindfully
for eight minutes. Maybe one minute if that's
all you can get in. So it's relatively low threshold.
All right. Well, that was a great segue into
a big part that I wanted to ask about, which
was mindful practice. I've been exposed to it
a little bit through Rodney Yee, the yoga guru,
and then Headspace, the app. And I can say right
now I have experienced great benefits. I've fallen
off the wagon myself. I'll be the first to admit
it. I'm trying to get myself back on there. Basically,
what would be the first few steps to lead them
into finding the right mindful practice for them?
And then as you kind of touched on before, what
volume of mindful practice they should try and
aspire to get? Well, I think that there's so
many types of mindfulness. There's no science
that would say for this type of person, this
is the right duration and this is the right type.
So we're too early in the science there. But
what I would suggest people do is maybe just
do a quick little investigation on why you're
curious about mindfulness. Like, what is it that
you're looking for? And so just be clear about
like the purpose of why you want to train it.
Is it for recovery? You know, that's good. But
the real main focus is to increase your awareness.
So you become. more aware of your thoughts, emotions,
your body sensations, the environment around
you, so that you can adjust and pivot in a more
authentic, optimized way. And that's like the
first pillar. And the second pillar is to reveal
the wisdom, the true nature of things about yourself
and about the world. Those are the two big pillars
of mindfulness. The gold dust in modern times
is relaxation. But that's just the gold dust.
So I think it's important to go, like, really
get really clear, like, what are you looking
for? Why are you doing it? And if you're doing
it because, you know, somebody told you to do
it, that's not right. And if you're doing it
because, you know, if one of your community members
are doing it because they respect you, that's
not quite right. It's good, but it's not going
to last. And so getting crisp on that is the
first thing. And then there's two types of mindfulness.
There's single point and then contemplative.
Single point is just as simple as focusing on
one thing for an extended period of time. And
then your mind wanders and you gently bring it
back. That's it. And contemplative, let's put
a pin in that one. It's a little bit more complicated.
And I would suggest starting with single point,
starting with focusing on breathing. And the
reason I like breathing as opposed to anything
that you can focus your mind on is that until
you die, your breathing is always available to
you. And so... I would start there. And then
I could go one level kind of deeper. And there's
lots of ways to think about breathing training.
And there's some relatively new science around
it. But there's been some ancient traditions
for a while. But even as far as 20 years ago,
people were saying, hey, listen, somewhere between
five and six breaths a minute is going to impact
people's heart rate variability and their responses
to stress. And if you think about that, if we're
looking at somewhere between five and six. breaths
per minute. We've got 60 seconds in a minute.
That means each breath is somewhere between 10
and 12 seconds. And so then if I could add one
more layer to this, if you focused on a breath
up for eight, I'm sorry, you know, like up for
four and out for six, that's cool. Maybe you
want to extend it a little bit longer and go
up for eight and out for 12. You can get around
the four, four breaths per minute, somewhere
in that range. Or you want to do box breathing
and you go. You know, up for three, out for three.
I'm sorry, up for three, hold for three, out
for three, pause for three at the bottom. You
know, somewhere in that range. So I would just,
I can't give you too much because I don't want
to overwhelm folks. But at the same time, it's
like just focus on making your exhale longer
than your inhale. That's it. Like make your exhale
longer than your inhale. and focus on that as
if a loved one's life depending on you getting
it right that would be the right type of way
to do it well i found very good success with
that on the way to a call when obviously we get
calls that it's a sprained ankle you're not really
too anxious about that but when it's the you
know pediatric code or some of these other ones
that really have the potential for for spark
in our adrenal system um i do that on the way
to the call i try and i try and uh I wouldn't
even say it was box breathing, more what you
were talking about, a slow inhalation, a slow
exhalation. But what's even more pertinent is
when we are in the fire, if we're actually on
a fire call, we only have enough air. The air
on our back is all we have in the world. So the
more control we are with our breathing, the anxiety
portion, the mental portion, but even the physiological
portion, the more air we have, the more chance
we, A, have to reach someone, and B, get ourselves
out safely as well. That's exactly it. And then
I would challenge you, James, maybe to do that
breathing every day, right? So that you're not
just doing it in crisis mode to manage, but you're
front -loading the training to get ahead of it
so that you do have better controls of your arousal
system, your nervous system, as well as potentially
slipping into some really deep understanding
and some awareness. Because what ends up happening
when you're focusing on... all of your essence
on your breathing, you become better at spending
time in the present moment. And the present moment
is where you experience high performance, but
more importantly, you reveal wisdom. Yeah, yeah.
And another thing that I've, me personally, I
suffer from is the monkey mind. And I heard,
I think it was... Wayne Dyer talking about, I'm
sure I've got the numbers completely wrong, but
we have 10 ,000 thoughts a day on 100 things.
And that's definitely what my mind is. And I
think it's made worse by social media and all
the other inputs that we have. And when I've
been doing this mindful practice, it's just calmed
that down. And I know that we talk about it a
lot. You don't meditate once and everything goes
away. You become aware of it. But just clearing
the white noise from my brain is so restorative
in itself. That's it. That's it. That's great.
And I don't, just to be clear, I don't agree
with the 10 ,000 thoughts. But yes, the concept
is right on the money. Okay, well, let's explore
that then. So what would be your take on that
whole concept? For thoughts? Yeah, for white
noise. Oh, yeah. The whole job is to get from
noise to signal. That's our job, right? Get out
the noise, get to the signal. That's our job
definitely for first responders, definitely for
people on the path of mastery. is get to the
signal. What's the signal? And the signal can
only be experienced in the present moment. And
if your monkey mind, your wandering mind, your
undisciplined mind, which is most of our minds,
can't really tell the difference between signal
and noise, we've got problems. And if it's undisciplined
and connected to the noise, we've got problems.
And so how do you get better at it is training
your mind to be in the present moment more often.
That's where mindfulness is such an advantage
for performance. Let alone, I don't know, James,
if you know a wise man or woman, like a true
wise woman or true wise man. Yeah, please. I
was going to say, what would be a stereotypically
wise person? No. And they're rare because most
people are more interested in performance and
looking good than like wisdom. And so like wisdom,
when people have wisdom. They just don't get
rattled. It's great. It's wonderful. It's not
crazy. It's wonderful. You know, they understand
the fragility of now because they've, they've
explored the depths of depth and they're like,
yeah, okay, well now it's all we get. How are
we going to do now? Oh, poor thing. You're going
to be nervous about now. Nothing's really even
happening right now. It's just a conversation,
you know, like, oh, okay. So you're, you're in
your, you're in your truck heading to the. to
the call well okay good so you know it's very
important i hope that you'll you'll be your very
best because people are counting on you you know
it's just wisdom is different and it's awesome
and you think they achieve that through mindful
uh mindful practice and just controlling their
own thoughts awareness spending more time in
the present moment thinking about things deeply
You know, whether that's writing or in conversation
or mindfulness, those are the three ways I think
that wisdom is revealed. And through inspired
conversations, writing some shit down that's
deep and then, you know, listening, you know,
and and and the challenge when you write things
down is that forces you to choose some words.
It doesn't mean it's any good, but like it's
there's a practice there, too. Yeah. Well, it's
funny you mentioned earlier about the study of
writing down three things that you're grateful
for, optimistic. I have the five -minute journal,
which I'm sure has spawned from that study in
some way. And again, it just forces you to be
gracious in the morning, have gratitude, and
then to do the same thing before you go to bed
and try and unload some of that mental baggage.
That's it. That's it. Nice work. All right. Well,
talking about that. I listened to you on the
Ultimate Health podcast. They had you on as a
guest. And you talked about the 60 -second waking
practice. And I'd love to get that on recording
for this too. So I'll elaborate a little bit.
Including that and other things that you would
recommend people do on a daily basis to try and
start steering themselves towards mastery of
themselves. Well, I think this is too small.
It's a beginning. you know, it's cool and it's
a beginnings could be wonderful. I'd really,
there's so much I'd want to share with your audience
and your community about the path of mastery,
but certainly this is a nice little easy entry
point. So the four steps, one is one breath before
you take your sheets off one breath. That's it.
And if you want to do two, nice. If you want
to do more than that, great, no problems. But
like one full breath with the exhales, longer
the inhale. And that comes before you check Instagram,
Twitter, you know, or even have thoughts about
all the busyness and things you need to get done
today. Like just one deep inhale and exhale.
Then step two is one thought of gratitude. Just
wake up that part of your brain and your mind
to focus on what's good and what you're grateful
for. And we have a thought that gratitude precedes
joy and happiness. And so that's just kind of
priming the right structures in your brain. And
if you want to have more than one thought, again,
great. That's totally cool. And then step three
is one intention. And that's a fancy word for
how do you want to be today. And if you can be
really crisp, like when I get to the, yeah, when
I get to the. the office or when I see the guys
or the team or whatever, that you say, how do
I want to do that? And it's just a quick little
frame. And then, so those are three steps. And
then the last is take your sheets off, put your
feet on the ground and just be where your feet
are. And that one can get corny. So beware, you
know, and it can kick up some ideas like, what
am I doing? Oh, wait, that's right. Just be where
my feet is. This is weird. Why am I doing this?
God, look at that. I really am hard on myself.
I can't even quiet my mind and be where my feet
are. Okay, let me start. Okay, let me just feel
my feet on the ground. What am I doing? You know,
like that's the experience that happens on that
last one. So it's just a nice little moment to
check in to the quality of your mind. Can you
just be where your feet are? So those are the
four steps. And it's not check the box. It's
be in it. Do each one of those with all of your
essence and might. And that's the way to, I think,
a great way to start the day. All right. Well,
you've said that before about reaching out to
the audience. So I would love it if you're OK,
if you have the ability to do it in a time frame
that suits you. You have the men and women now
listening that truly want to find mastery. So
we've been talking about some of these kind of
piecemeal topics that I've been throwing at you.
But myself, for example. My goal as a firefighter,
as a medic, is to be the best damn firefighter
and medic I can be. And again, it's not a competition.
It's funny when people call themselves the best
firefighter in the world or I've seen it before.
The goal is to be the best version of ourselves.
So what general guidelines would you give for
anyone in a career that's listening to start
pursuing mastery in their own field? It's really
cool. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about
it. First, I would go back to making sure that
what you're investing your time and energy in
is purposeful to you. So lining up some purpose.
And that really begins with the philosophy. And
having a great clarity about the guiding principles
in your life. is a foundational point. Like what
are the principles that are gonna help you shape
your thoughts, your words, and your actions?
And then the second part is like where are you
going? You know, like who are you and where are
you going is a big part of the early work. And
then ridiculously investing in mastering your
craft and mastering your mind. And both of those
are daily practice. it is uncommon so it requires
an uncommon commitment to both of those and it's
not knowledge acquisition it's not how you train
your mind it's not how you train your craft knowing
more is not enough it is applying and training
your craft in new ways being open to iterating
in new ways and at the same same way with the
mind is conditioning and training your mind do
you have the skills the mental skills to become
to generate confidence in any environment To
focus deeply in the present moment in any condition,
whether it was at one time boring or one time
overwhelming. Do you know how to trust yourself
in rugged and hostile environments? Optimism
certainly is what we've talked about. And do
you have the skill to focus your mind on what's
in your control as opposed to all the noise of
what's not in your control? Those are some basic,
basic ones. And then rinse and repeat. I don't
want to say that. No two moments are alike. No
two days are alike. literally doing a second
version of that um the following day and recovering
in a world -class process so i know i've just
said a lot but from a mental standpoint philosophy
vision mental skills psychological framework
the optimism control piece and then recovering
in a world -class way so i that's where i would
suggest people start and if you want more of
that yet you probably need to do some reading
around it But, you know, I love that you were
listening to some of the podcasts we've been
doing. So I love talking about this stuff. Sometimes
I get into the weeds. Sometimes it's more conceptual.
And we fired up a podcast that's been awesome
called Finding Mastery. And, you know, this is
exactly what we talk about as well on a regular
basis. So there's some of that to be found there
as well. Brilliant. Well, I want to talk about
the podcast a little bit more in a moment. But
the Compete to Create, is that something that
people can now go? to the website and actually
work on on building these skills themselves well
compete to create is the business that coach
Carol head coach of the Seattle Seahawks and
I have created taking his intellectual property
my intellectual property wrapping it together
and creating an experience on how enterprise
organizations can enhance their culture and train
the minds of people inside of it and It's wonderful,
but it's for enterprise folks, enterprise businesses,
you know, top 100 companies. That was where we
started. And now we're just getting to being
able to roll that out to the rest of us. And
we're excited. We're just in the pilot phase
of seeing if we can get this technology to snap
together properly. So we're in the pilot phase
right now. We think by fall it's going to be
available, but I'd encourage you. punch over
to CompeteToCreate .net and there is a waiting
list. If you want to get on the pilot waiting
list, you can check into that and then also get
on the waiting list. I know it sounds kind of
crass to say waiting list, but we're not set
up to do 10 million people. We're not set up
to do that. So we're going to do waves of individuals
as we roll it out, probably in the thousands,
the tens of thousands. So these things, we found
that they fill up really quickly. So that's CompeteToCreate
.net. It's coming available. And then the podcast,
FindingMastery .net are the two places that I'm
spending a lot of time. Yeah, well, on to the
podcast then. So I was introduced to you by,
and I should have mentioned this at the beginning,
by Peter Park. the trainer who trained Lance
Armstrong amongst a whole host of other athletes.
And when I always ask a question, which I will
ask you at the end as well, which is, can you
think of someone he would recommend to come on
the show? You were the name that he recommended.
And so when I delved into the podcast, having
not come across yours before, I love the fact
that you have. this smorgasbord of guests and
and some of my favorite ones i've listened to
so far with dr harry edwards um david goggins
and vitor belfor all completely different backgrounds
you got a military guy you got a um you know
a member was he actually a member of the black
panther i forget now i think he said he was wasn't
he uh dr edwards yeah and then obviously vitor
from ufc but again you you have this the spectrum
of guests but you're finding these common denominators
amongst them um so I guess I'm asking a question
after doing a huge explanation, but have you
found any common threads now with all these podcasts
that you've done, but there's some key common
denominators of these successful men and women
that you've had so far? Yeah, I haven't pushed
it through the right machine learning to see
what the trends actually are. So anything I'm
going to say right now is totally biased. based
on the recency bias, what I've just heard from
the theme, or what I want to say. So I want to
reserve that right now. I haven't pushed this
through the right machine learning process to
know exactly what we have. And it's overwhelming,
really. There's just too much insight and wisdom
and shared knowledge that I can do that properly
right now. I'd like to say that people are...
are practicing mindfulness and and are invested
in training their mind but you know i don't know
yet and so um i want to reserve judgment yeah
right because i've noticed that one thing that
uh i've seen in the guests i'm just about to
hit 100 in a couple of weeks so not not a huge
catalog but it's It's the optimism, definitely,
but the gratitude as well. Some of these men
and women have been through, I mean, literally
to hell and back. I had a guy called Ishmael
Bay on the show a few weeks ago who was a child
soldier in Sierra Leone. And got rescued by UNICEF
and now is an advocate. He works for UNICEF rescuing
boy soldiers. So you talk about forgiveness and
kindness and gratitude. But I see that in some
of these people. And again, I'm sure that's completely
related to having control of the mind to create
that mindset in the first place. Awesome. And
Peter Park is a legend. So I'm honored that he
would recognize and suggest that I come on. So
I'm going to thank him. for uh for that like
he's so good at what he does yeah no and it was
funny i was talking to dr eric goodman i don't
know if you know him from foundation training
um who he co -authored their first book with
um and peter was literally supposed to be evacuated
from his home for the mudslides that they had
in california a couple months ago And I told
him, well, we can just reschedule the interview.
And he was like, no, no, we're fine. We'll just
do the interview and then I'll leave. So he was,
yeah, such a nice guy. I know many people that
would do that, but. Sounds like him. Yes, yes.
All right. Well, I just want to do some wrap
up questions then. You've been so generous with
your time. First one, I always like to delve
into people's minds. Is there a book that you
love to recommend to people? Can be about what
we talked about today or something completely
different? Yeah, you know. I think that if you've
got a spiritual framework, reinvest in that book.
Whatever that spiritual framework is, I think
is important to investigate. And then I'd say
go check out one of the other important spiritual
framework texts. And so when I'm talking about
the Quran, the Bible, I'm talking about the Tao
Te Ching. Go check out one of the other spiritual
practices and see what they're about. The most
influential books in the world are the spiritual
texts. So why do we why are we always looking
for the next hot thing off the shelf? You know,
like I don't get that. And so I there's there's
next hot books off the shelf that I a lot of
my friends have written and, you know, that are
cool to read for sure. But when you really want
to get down to it, go invest in a spiritual text
that's not yours. Check out what they have to
say, you know, see what they're talking about.
And it doesn't mean that you're going to go to
hell or I mean, there's the old ways of thinking,
like, go look. And I love the Tao Te Ching. I
think it's amazingly complicated and beautiful,
which is the inspired text for Taoism. So are
you suggesting that people prior to our generation
had wisdom too? Yeah, and I'm wondering about
our modern day wisdoms. Yes, yes, yes. I have
the same observation. All right, so next thing
then. Is there a movie and or a documentary that
you love? You know, I'm not great at this game.
You know, it's like I just I scan my mind, my
memory, and all that comes up really are the
ones that I've just recently watched. So I'm
not I'm not the right person to answer that.
You know, I'm going to say Star Wars because
it was influential when I was a kid. And I love
what they've done with the hero's journey in
those books. But just about every Pixar movie
has just done a great job with the hero's journey
as well. So I'm just not really good at that.
No, that's fine. That's a great answer. All right.
So the one I mentioned before, is there a person
that you would recommend to come on this show
to talk to the first responders and soldiers
of the world? Yeah. Is there a person? There's
got to be someone that you might not be familiar
with because he's not big time in social media
that hasn't written a book. He's a local community
member in the professional sport world that is
really different and sees the world differently
and is. Fun to be around. He's a community member
of mine and he's got a lot to say on tribe. And
I think it'd be fun for you to connect with Troll
Subin. And that'll be a new name for you and
your community. Excellent. I love that. That's
exactly what I want. The gold nuggets that people
don't know about. So thank you. So my very last
one before we talk about where we can find all
your work is what do you do to decompress? Yeah,
that's a cool question. As a trained psychologist,
licensed as a professional, one of the things
that they taught us early on is, so I only see
two clients a month now. And when I spend time
with a client, I spend eight hours with them.
And it's super intense. And so I don't have that
rhythm where I see six, seven clients a day.
But one of the things that they taught us early
on was after you do deep, intense work, do something
to relax, to reset. And maybe you just go to
the bathroom, wash your hands, take a couple
breaths, you know, and just kind of gather yourself.
So I don't have this big thing at the end of
the day that I do, you know, to shut her down
or whatever. But I have this consistent monitoring
of how I'm spending my energy. And so it's this
it's this really kind of fluid. I feel like I'm
in a river and I can tell when I'm caught in
an eddy and I can tell when I'm heading over
to the banks. too fast and i'm going to get smashed
up i can tell when i'm you know kind of in rough
seas or rough not rough seas but rough waters
and how to like find my balance in that moment
be a little bit more still so it's this continual
awareness and adjustment this fine -tuning adjustment
on a regular basis mapping the conditions that
are happening to and finally tuned as i can be
to how i want to be as a man so it's a it's kind
of a consistent modulation if you will and that
sounds super technical and nerdy and i am a nerd
but like that that's how i do it now i love that
that's actually very different than most of the
answers i get but it totally lines up with what
we've been talking about if you're totally in
the moment then that's when you would be start
fixing imbalances that you're aware of absolutely
okay so the very last one then so um you have
a book as well finding mastery and i apologize
for not mentioning that earlier um so where can
people find your book Um, and then the other,
the websites that you have your work on and if
there's one main one that everything tethers
off. Yeah, cool. Thank you for that. The book
is actually not in print yet. So you've heard
about the book because I've talked about it,
but I'm premature. It's written and we're just
shopping it right now to the, to the right places.
And so we think fall, like we're going to try
to time it up in the fall with the release of
our open platform, mindset training platform.
So it's not available yet. That's why you didn't
know about it. Okay, great. I feel better. Yeah,
no worries on that. So I've talked about it,
but it's not out yet. And so the two places,
websites, social media is great. I'm loving it.
I'm having a good time with it. And so Instagram
is Finding Mastery. Twitter is at Michael Gervais,
G -E -R -V -A -I -S. LinkedIn is the same. Let's
see, where else is there? There's Facebook. We've
built a community called Finding Mastery Tribe.
So findingmastery .net forward slash tribe. And
then also competetocreate .net. Those are the
places. Excellent. Well, thank you so much again.
I know it's not the community that you normally
reach out to, but the... The mental component,
the psychology of the firefighter, the police
officer, the paramedic is an area that we don't
explore that much either. And we're very much
in the, I would say, the 80s and 90s with a lot
of our education, whether it's physical or mental.
So I really, really appreciate taking the time
to reach out to us. And even though you were
saying that you were on a soapbox or waffling,
I disagree 100%. I think that everything you
said today has been gold. And I know that people
are going to get a lot from this. So thank you
again. No, no, no. Thank you. And I'll tell you
what, my appreciation, my rich appreciation for
men and women who serve is, I can't say enough.
So I'm grateful to be included in your community.
Thank you for doing it. Thank you for the commitment
you make to the rest of us. And I have such a
deep appreciation for military as well as, you
know, armed forces as well as all of those community
minded people who serve us. and that you know
who do we call when we're in trouble we call
you guys so thank you