Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. As
always, my name is James Geering, and this week
I have an incredibly powerful episode for you.
Jennifer Hunt Murty spent over 20 years as a
paralegal before founding the Ocala Gazette,
one of our local newspapers. And she has become
an incredibly important voice when it comes to
pulling the curtain back on deficiencies in our
community, especially in the first responder
professions and prisons. So in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from her journey
into the world of law, what drove her into the
world of journalism, the pervasive decline of
first responder professions when leaders are
not held accountable, our 911 dispatch center,
uncovering the deaths in our jails, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment.
Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Jennifer Hunt Murty. Enjoy. Well, Jennifer,
I want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time and coming to my home and doing
this interview in person today. It's an honor.
So for people listening, if they were to find
you in your normal habitat, where would they
find you? Where on the planet? Ocala, Florida.
I am a journalist that pretty much works out
of my home, but you can find me all over town.
Pretty much. I think that's how we met is at
an event. And I'm grateful to have people like
you that I can call when I'm delivering journalism
on public safety, you know, as a sounding board.
Absolutely. We're going to take a deep dive into
that. I want to start at the very beginning of
your journey. We were talking before we hit record.
And you've got a very kind of uniform -centric
kind of ladder as far as your family tree. So
tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Okay. I was born in Washington,
D .C. My parents met on my father's, on an airplane,
coming back from the Vietnam War. They got married
and had three children, but it was very difficult.
My father was one of, he was a Marine in the
1st Battalion, so they were called the Walking
Dead. He did two tours. He came back with severe
PTSD. As a child, I realized something wasn't
right. He was always kind, but there were, things
that didn't make sense. And I know it was really
hard on my mother because my father was a loving,
kind person, but there were just certain things
like he couldn't stay in the same place very
long. He, you know, he was never violent towards
us, but if somebody else got in his face, you
know, so in time they ended up splitting and
my father still alive and still struggles quite
a bit. His father was injured in World War II,
invading Italy. So there's generations of dealing
with PTSD and the effect it can have on a family.
So I'm very sensitive to also what first responders
go through with their family units and dealing
with all of it. I've had some World War Two veterans
on the show and the way they were received in
the 40s versus the way our Vietnam generation
were could not be more opposite. And every single
Vietnam vet that I've had on the show has said
the same thing, like spat on. One of them was
wounded and literally waiting to be evac'd when
he got to the US and was urinated on. I mean,
just absolutely disgusting. And then you think
about that mental health impact that. You may
or may not have been drafted. Then you go over.
You probably at some point, I would imagine,
have a feeling that maybe this war wasn't what
you were told it was going to be. You know, you
lose people. You do things that you have to do
to survive. Then you come back and then your
tribe, your nation, has turned their back on
you as well. And I just can't imagine how crushing
that must have been for the men and women that
were over there. My dad was 17 and his parents
had to sign for him to go. So he volunteered.
And then volunteered for another tour. He had
survivor's guilt, he told me later. But when
he did come back, he entered law enforcement
in Washington, D .C. He was a canine officer.
So I think he did that probably for about five
years. And then it was just too much. And was
he able to transition to another career after
that? Or was that pretty much kind of like the
end of the road career wise? He became a serial
entrepreneur. And there were months at a time
where he'd be in another country. We wouldn't
hear from him. So it was a rocky road. I'm really
proud of my brother seeing him change the patterns,
you know, of our family. He's raising his boys
the right way. Well, the book I just wrote last
year kind of takes a deep dive into that, into
generational trauma. And I think this is something
that we're starting to realize now is we're all
grandchildren or great -grandchildren of the
World War II generation. And we've romanticized
their homecoming, that they just rolled up their
sleeves and they got back to work. But you actually
hear on occasion these actual men or, you know,
at least children, grandchildren of them. And
granddad wasn't okay. Granddad was far from okay.
And then he's raising the Vietnam generation.
So they, you know, grew up in that household
and then they go off and add trauma to trauma,
you know, and you have this. So I think it's
incredible when you hear that, that people have
identified it and said, I'm not going to let
that domino fall on my child. I think it was
probably in the 80s, like late 80s, that I, as
a child, first heard of the term PTSD. And many
people were discounting it. And I remember feeling
frustrated, like, No, my dad's definitely, you
know, got something going on. I'm so glad we've
come to the point where we are now, where there
is more mainstream understanding of the impact
it can have. It's interesting because when you
actually reflect, there was, you know, shell
shock. A soldier's heart, a thousand -yard stare.
I mean, all these terms for PTSD. It's been there,
you know, since the beginning of combat, I'm
sure. But it's bizarre. You know, the 80s especially
is probably horrendous for the Vietnam generation
because then you have these bodybuilders portraying
soldiers. And, you know, John Wayne and all these
other people that never saw combat that projected
this kind of faux stoicism. That then created
even less of an opportunity for these people
that were struggling to actually reach out and
be vulnerable. Yeah, that's true. So what about
in that your childhood as you're going through
the school ages, what were you doing as far as
exercise, hobbies, those kind of things? So I
was raised very religious. My mother, that's
how she powered us through it. So we were at
church three times a week and volunteering a
lot. We were not involved in sports at all. So
I didn't have that normal upbringing exposure
to those things. Somebody asked a while back
how I became competitive when I didn't have the
exposure, but it worked out okay. So what about
career aspirations? What were you dreaming of
becoming when you were in school? I wanted to
be a missionary. My aunt and uncle were missionaries
in Africa, and I thought serving. in that capacity
would be the right path for me. But then a few
changes happened and I got very interested in
the legal field. So I started college a little
late, not right after high school, and went while
working full time for a legal studies degree.
And that would probably be my first career, 20
years as a paralegal. working mostly for trial
attorneys. One of my thoughts was to go to law
school. And I probably regret that I didn't do
that next. But instead, I transitioned to this
career, which is journalism. So when you're in
those 20 years, as you walk through, what was
some of the issues or injustices that you started
seeing systemically? Well, when I moved to Marion
County, which was about 17 years ago, I already
had probably about 10 years under my belt in
the field. And I ended up working on some very
interesting cases that really gave me a window
into what the local landscape is like. In fact,
in hindsight, when I interviewed, the attorney
asked, do you have any problem working on a case
against the local sheriff? At the time, it was
Ed Dean. And I was like, no, no big deal. Why
would I have a problem with that? I understood
as time went on why I might have a problem with
that. But that case, which was covered in the
news, it was a federal case about a young man
who was killed by an officer and a canine. And
investigating that death. It was before body
cam footage, but OPD had just put video cams
on their cars and they responded to it also and
moved the car so that there was some images.
That trial gave me a window. I mean, things came
out at trial, like the medics being called off.
I mean, so many crazy things happened. It was
eye opening. Because I usually was helping mostly
in civil cases. I was not involved in criminal
cases at all. So that was my first window. And
in those type of claims, you have to point out
that there's a policy or practice in place that's
facilitating violations, constitutional violations.
And in this particular case, I was allowed to
go through. a ton of internal affairs reports,
things like that, that we believe showed that
the sheriff was turning a blind eye to some of
the actions of his officers. Now, you know, fast
forward 10 years, and I'm in this role. And I
think to myself, I bet you nobody's gone through
all those internal affairs in the past 10 years.
It's one of those things I would like to do one
of these days. It's on my list. What was the
backstory of the things that were broken that
led to that death then? Lack of accountability.
I believe that the entry of body cams really
are keeping people honest a little bit more.
In this particular case, it was an officer that,
who knows, maybe had PTSD from something else,
but went unhinged. He killed this. I don't know
how else nice to say, but he killed him with
his walkie talkie hitting him in the head and
then let his dog chew on him. It wasn't pretty.
At that time, because when you look, for example,
at Compton, obviously that's a part of the country
that's known for violence in the 80s. You see
systemically how you had these wars between gangs
and then law enforcement and law enforcement
almost became. a pseudo rival gang there was
you know this back and forth and again they were
fighting for their lives and you just created
this absolute vicious circle of violence and
you know at times then obviously corruption and
and covering up things and obviously the rodney
king etc etc when you look back at that time
in marion county what was the other side of the
coin were were you know law enforcement fearing
for their lives a lot or was this an isolated
incident in an otherwise not too dangerous part
of the country I'm glad you used the word gang
because I would have hesitated to use it. I think
that at the time, crime wasn't very bad in Marion
County. I think that there are just possibly
then and now a group of officers that are just
a little more. Quick to draw. And instead of
calming each other, if one sees the other getting
out of line, they look the other way. They don't.
And that lack of accountability, even within
these units, is troubling. It's where the public.
is very vulnerable, and I don't think they understand
how vulnerable they are. They tend to think,
well, I'm lawful. I'm never going to have a negative
interaction with a first responder. However,
it happens. People are falsely arrested, and
you could end up in a very dangerous jail, which
ours is very dangerous. There's very real implications
on your record. It's something leaders in law
enforcement need to set the tone and give their
men and women accountability and also help. Not
everybody is raised with the same core values.
And I don't know how you teach those or if you
can, but there does need to be a greater emphasis
put on. You know, the words that they have on
the side of their cart, integrity, honesty. Who's
policing that? Absolutely. As you transition
them out of the paralegal profession, what was
it that even drew you to journalism? Love of
community. I moved to Ocala during sort of a
hard time. Because I was having maybe a crisis
of faith. I told you I was raised very religious.
And I was leaving what I had done. I was 32 years
old. I was leaving what I pretty much based my
entire life around. End of a marriage. And I'm
living in a town I really don't know that many
people. And I have to say, this town gave me
home. I met wonderful people who accepted. me
into the community. So at some point, I just,
I fell in love with it. I fell in love. I'm very
protective. I'm the oldest in my family. So when
I would watch meetings, and I often would for
my job, government meetings, so I would understand
what was going on. Needs, particularly related
to infrastructure. kept arising and when the
local newspaper started laying off journalists
it really became acute for me like huh there's
not that many left this is not good because it's
easier than for them to to hide things and so
I started doing research on what it would take
and here we are five years later I can't believe
we've made it five years actually it's it's been
uh The hardest thing I've ever done. When you
look back before we get to current times, what
have you observed as far as the evolution or
devolution of journalism in general? I think
that there's a disconnect in that because of
social, there's so much information out there.
There's so much media out there. But not all
media is journalism. Journalism is independent
fact -finding. It's delivery of information that
is constrained by certain ethical considerations.
There's editors involved that are questioning
your fact -finding, your source material. It's
a lot more rigorous, and we have less of it.
Even though we have more media, we have less
journalism. the things that I think is really
at stake is media literacy. So people are having
a hard time understanding what is independently
sourced information and what could be delivered
like news, but possibly from another country
trying to cause discord. So that's really alarming
to me. But when it's local journalism, like what
we do, The people know us. They see us. There's
more trust. They know all I have is my credibility.
And I have to be able to look at them in the
face when I see them. They know I want to get
the story right. So journalism, local journalism,
there's less of it. I believe it's almost more
important than any other kind of journalism because
it has the ability to give people information
that impacts their daily life. Uh, so it's gotten
worse, but there are people like myself all over
the country trying to really bootstrap it and
do as much as they can with a little, I wish
I had a team of 50, like the star banner did,
you know, 20 years ago. If I did now, why, why
not 50 anymore? What changed to change the landscape
there? Funding mechanisms. Previously, pre -social
media, if you needed to get the word out on something,
you bought advertising in your local newspaper.
Now people can just run ads on social media.
So all of that revenue has gone away. Also, there
has been a shift. And a nice way to put it, but
trying to streamline operations and really take
away local assets by huge corporations that own
newspapers all over the country. And what they're
trying to do is put as little local journalism
out there and just share stories from across
the state. Because it saves them money. They
don't have to employ journalists as many that
way. So because of the corporate structure and
the fact that they're owned by hedge funds, so
at their heart, I don't even know if they know
any of these communities or care about these
communities. So in our particular case, I'm local.
I love my community. I want it to succeed, even
when I have to criticize it or report something
that's unfavorable. It's coming from a place
of let's fix it. You know, let's do the best.
A corporation doesn't have that level of heart.
I shared a video. I've shared it many times now,
but it's it talks about exactly what you're talking
about. and there's all these clips. It starts
off with one, then it goes to two, then it goes
to four, then it goes to 16, and the screen gets
bigger and bigger. The people get smaller and
smaller, but it's all these news stations from
around the country supposedly talking local news
with the exact same script. And it's like Orwellian,
you know? It's just terrifying, but it really
underlines the fact that, like you said, many,
many times there isn't journalism. It's just...
You know, it's television. And I've said this,
I mean, Fox, CNN, these two groups of people
will argue about their opposing news. And it's
like, it's the same exact blueprint. That's not
news. You know, I've always said this. The screen
is split into four people who argue about opinions.
They're not disseminating news at all. It's just
an opinion show. No different than The View or
Jerry Springer. I agree with you. I agree with
you. It's funny because if... I think there's
also a disconnect with people understanding what
news is an opinion. And so a lot of times I'll
have people, and I realize sometimes we're in
our own bubble when it comes to understanding
how we're being perceived. But I have a lot of
people wonder, like, what are your intentions?
Why are you choosing to give us this information?
Especially if it's unsavory information we don't
want to hear. What's your intentions? So I'm
trying to get out and talk to the community a
little bit more about that and tell everybody,
hey, you have a problem with a story. You're
wondering why we focused on it, why we're putting
it out there. Call us and ask. We'll give you
all the background, the months it took, you know,
to get the information together. That's something
you can only get with local outlets. And I'm
hoping that there will be a resurgence. and people
prioritizing. I had a guest on the show, Larry
Doyle, who was a really trusted journalist back
in the, you know, 70s, 80s, 60s, 70s, 80s, I
think. And he was the first person to interview
Nelson Mandela after he was released from Robben
Island. So that, I think, speaks volumes. And
I asked Larry, we've done a couple of interviews
now, he's actually ironically moved to Gainesville.
He's just up the road. But I asked him, you know,
what happened to the news? Because I grew up
as a young boy with the BBC, and I would argue
back then it was very, very matter -of -fact.
This is what's going on. And he said that up
to a certain point, the television networks would
be owned by a corporation, and the corporation
would have other things that would make money,
and they would fund reporting, fund journalism.
They'd have an amazing budget to really go there
and embed and learn the story and report the
way it was supposed to be. And I think it was
kind of like the Murdoch era. they changed that
model and they said, news, you need to start
making money now. And that's when you start again,
these clickbait stories. And if people could
just understand that the only purpose that, that
those shows serve now is to make money with the
advertising in between, it would open their eyes,
you know? So this, you know, if it's kindness
and compassion or whatever it is, if the story
wraps up and you're not glued to the TV to watch
the tide commercial that's coming up, you know,
they're not going to have the same, you know,
selling stout but if i get you angry about trump
or biden or vaccines or masks or whatever and
you're going to wait for the commercial break
to hear what again a screen of four assholes
has to say about it then you know they can sell
this advertising space so this is what's so nauseating
is it's not news it's purely you know economics
they're just making money clickbait is a pet
peeve of mine i get really annoyed when i see
my colleagues at other outlets reducing themselves
to using it. We see it a lot with law enforcement
having their own channels through social that
they put through a lot of clickbait that lacks
context. And frankly, I believe my position,
it hurts the community. But at our paper, that's
something that we do a little different. We are
not reporting on everyday crime blotter content.
We are trying to examine more the harder subjects,
the policy, the financial implications of getting
our community what it needs. And it's funny,
when I started this, I had editors tell me, you
know, you need to write for like no higher than
a 10th grade education. And I just disagreed
with that. Some of our stories are long and people
complain, but they never complain that we didn't
give them all the information. So I would rather
be thorough, if anything. One other thing I see
now is this kind of narcissism in some of these,
especially in law enforcement, these sheriffs,
where all of a sudden, again, we're back to the
Jerry Springer show and they're saying this outlandish
things. And again, no context and no. conversation
of well why is there so much crime in my town
and how can we proactively stop some of these
issues it's just you know if you can't it's like
you know some cheesy 1940s western you come in
my town i'm gonna draw out my six shooter and
so where the f is that because it's it's ridiculous
to watch it's hard to be on the receiving end
of it when they uh particularly the sheriff's
office when they host press conferences i've
had him call my reporters questions stupid. He's
cursed at the reporters in the room. He violates
his own policy, his own code of conduct for his
own deputies, the way he addresses people. And
so now I go, like if there's a press conference,
I'm not going to send one of my people for that.
I'll handle it. But I think he thinks it's entertaining.
I think it shows a lack of dignity for the office
he holds. And what's the trickle down effect
on the men and women that serve in his department
that he's allowed to talk like that? It's, yeah,
it's not healthy for the community. No, no. Well,
again, I mean, as we sit here now, what has it
been, nine years now? That's pretty much been
the precedence being set from the White House
to both sides. You can just talk to people that
way. And whether it's I'm going to tell you to
stay at home until I can tell you to come out
and you just wear your mask and shut up. Or it's
this other side of the circus where you get the
same thing. And it's funny because I made this
comment many times back in the day. You know,
being president of the United States or prime
minister of the UK is kind of a big deal. Something
that, you know, people would dream of doing.
Now it's something that parents say, I don't
want you anywhere. Do not copy these people.
And now we've got these, you know, members of
law enforcement and other people that are copying
that like some, you know, ridiculous parent that
acts like an a -hole and then their kid starts
copying, you know. And I wish these people would
be professionals. We wear a uniform for a reason.
Like, you're expected to rise above all that,
you know, ridiculousness. And instead, they're
just playing the same game. And, you know, this
is all going to come crashing down. They're going
to look, you know. Well, they're not even going
to look anything. They're going to be replaced
if they're going to talk like that. That's hopeful.
I like the idea of replacing one or two. But
it's funny because even though they act that
way, even though they will yell at my reporters,
whatever the case may be, I still have to keep
open lines of communication. the sheriff called
me right now and said, Jennifer, I need to talk
to you. I'd say, James, I got to go. I'd say
bring him over here. The three of us can chat.
I doubt it. I doubt that would happen. I've met
him. He used to be at my son's school events
all the time. Yeah. And I'll get into my personal
experience with Marion County and the lack of
leadership. But anyway, I'll let you carry on.
But even though we have knocked heads on a few
subjects, I want him to succeed. It is in my
community who I love and serve that he do a good
job. All of them. I want all of them to do a
good job. So it's frustrating that, you know,
to be on one side of the abuse, but on the other
end having to, you know, show grace. I hope he
changes his mind and actually sits down one day.
Or maybe the wrong person is in that position.
Yeah. Because you want that position to succeed.
Yes, I want, you're exactly right. I want the
position to succeed. Thanks for the correction.
Yeah. There's a quote in Band of Brothers that
said, you salute the rank, not the man. Yes.
And I've encountered that so much. Yes. I mean,
they're all human. There's no, they have the
same frailties and, I mean, different maybe.
Insecurities, you know. family trauma that they're
bringing to the role. And I, I try to give a
little, um, grace understanding that, but when
it hurts public interest, it's a different, it's
a different type of reporting then. Yeah. And
for me as well, obviously. serving the public
but also when we're losing so many first responders
like when you are literally burying your own
people like in the firesides case i mean numerous
suicides and you're refusing to do anything differently
that's when i'm gonna take my filter off and
just say what needs to be said because if these
deaths aren't moving you to you know go to the
ends of the earth to find solutions then again
you're in the wrong position i'm sorry yeah i
i think that We don't have conversations enough
about the cost of public safety infrastructure,
and that includes the human element of it. You
know, staffing hours, which you have really done
a great job shining a light on, is just one element
that impacts their personal life, too. If we
could have conversations of, OK, we really want
to support our first responders, but we're all
going to have to pay $100 more on our tax bill
so that we're staffed at the right rate. Let's
quantify it some way, because I think if the
public did have a clear view of like a level
of service that they wanted and they were given
the price tag for it, I think they would come
through. But that's not how the conversation
goes. It's always after the fact when something
really bad happens. And there's a huge price
tag by that point. Yes. And human life, you know.
And then, you know, like we were talking before
we started about that, the assisted living facility
that recently had a high cost of life. And the
union there, you know, shed light on they're
not staffing their engines to the nationally
recommended level. You know, most fires, able
-bodied people are running out. But what happens
when it's a fire in a building and they're elderly
and not able to move? Yeah. So we need to be
staffed in advance, have all the infrastructure
in place to prevent those things from happening.
But it comes with a price tag. Well, this is
what's blown me away. And I've had this conversation
with a lot of people recently. I don't understand
because, like I said, I never rose above the
rank of firefighter. I have a bachelor's in sports
science. I am not elite in any of these areas.
But it's become painfully apparent that there
is money for a lot of this. But it's downstream.
So, for example, with the area I know more about,
Marion literally shared the numbers when we were
at the IHMC Blue Sky. There are millions and
millions and millions of dollars being wasted
on overtime, millions on lack of retention, kids
that they train and then they go work for another
agency, workman's comp claims, medical disability
payments, line of duty death payments, the lawsuits.
Every time an engine hits a vehicle or whatever,
there's hundreds of thousands there. And so I
don't understand why the financial gurus of City
of Ocala, Marion County, whoever it is, aren't
going to those agencies and saying, what is going
on? We're bleeding money. What can you do differently?
You know, and then they, oh, well, there's this,
you know, county helped by Tampa that's doing
it differently and they've filled all their vacancies
and their overtime's gone away. You know, why
are we not doing that? So this is what, you know,
my stance is, is that we don't need more money.
And a good example is, and I use this a lot,
is the NHS in the UK. When it was fully staffed
and fully funded, you know, you have this system
where then it motivates you to make the nation
healthy. And we were. When I was young, there
was a lot of, you know, retrospectively looking
at it, a lot of great health initiatives. And
if you keep the nation healthy, then you only
use your tax -based health care system for the
things that are really needed. The elderly, births,
you know, cancers, car crashes, etc. But now
it was kind of pseudo -privatized and obesity
has hit the UK tremendously and now it's falling
apart. So how do you fix the NHS in the UK? You
put it back to tax base and you put all your
money in getting British people healthy again.
And it's the same with this. Where's the money
to fix the first responder professions? It's
in all... the downstream downstream costs and
even you know we'll get to i'm sure i can only
imagine the millions in lawsuits after these
deaths and abuses of power in law enforcement
and in fire i mean that alone is probably you
know enough to put god knows how many more officers
in vehicles so this is what i don't understand
is this false economy and i think it comes from
cowardice i just want to look good in a fiscal
year so i can again get up on my pulpit and and
make crass remarks and say that I've saved the
county this amount of money, but you haven't.
It's a complete false economy. There's a lot
of smoke and mirrors with public safety, budget,
and communications. The local sheriff, he recently
did a staffing study and said he needed hundreds
of more deputies than what we have because we've
grown so much in Florida. And in Ocala. But he
only ended up getting like 20 or so added to
his budget. And he framed it in such a way that
the county commission, you know, thanked him
for being gracious and not asking for more. But
at the same time, what does that mean? I mean,
that trickled down. in response times, which
the sheriff's office provides no accountability
for. I've asked for studies on response times
in Marion County from the sheriff's office, and
they tell me there's no reports. They can give
me individual CAD reports on calls, but there's
no analysis on how long it's taking them to get
to calls. I find that unacceptable. That's insane,
because I've always been held to those standards.
Well, fire's different. Fire, they, you know,
they have... nationally recommended times to
be out the door. They keep track of it more because
they're having to move assets all over a county
to address it. The sheriff's office isn't sharing
any of that. And yet they work from the same
CAD the fire department does. And if I call the
fire department and say, I want a CAD report
for every call on this day, I can get it. Sheriff's
office says they can't. print that sort of report,
which to me is a lie and disturbing because,
I mean, the amount of power we give them relies
on truthfulness. And that has really gone away.
And why I believe we need journalism so badly
for the sake of the public, because the public
doesn't know how to figure that out. So how do
they know to demand more? How do they know when
they go in the voting booth what the level of
accountability is? Most people only become aware
of it when an incident happens to them, and then
it's too late usually. They're like, wow, I wish
I would have known about that. I hate when I
hear that because it's like, read local news.
Well, that's exactly what happened to me. So
when my son was in Liberty Middle School, He
had been going through some struggles. I'm divorced
and in the other household at that time, there
was kind of a poor relationship between my ex
and who she was with at the time. And yeah, it
was kind of, again, that domino effect. It was
coming out with Ty. Not to mention, again, our
divorce wasn't just that solely, but this little
boy was struggling. And he was seeing a counselor
there. And I'm driving back from the station
one morning and he always... One afternoon, excuse
me. And he would always kind of call me and say,
I'm on the bus or text me. I'm on the bus. I'm
off the bus. I'm home. Because it was that transitional
period where he was able to walk home safely
in this neighborhood. But I still knew that he'd
made it. And I didn't get a text. So I end up
calling him. And he's like, oh, dad, the principal
wants to talk to you. And so she said, oh, Mr.
Guillaume, we've got a problem. And I'm with
a tie now. I'll call you back and let you know
what's going on. That was it. So I hadn't been
contacted. I contacted my son and they took the
phone. I hear nothing. You know, I think 20 minutes
goes on half an hour and I call again. And they're
like, oh yeah, your son's been Baker acted. He's
at the centers. And I'm like, what? So anyway,
I go to the centers, which is now renamed, but
you know, the 72 hour psychiatric hold. Because
for someone that I know in my career is either
imminently dangerous to themselves or someone
else. And this is a small child. I think he was
12, 11 or 12 at the time. And come to find out
that he had just been crying at his desk in the
school. They'd taken him to the counselor, but
the counselor had just left. And you had a principal
and an SRO. And between the two of them, the
end of the school day, they were like, well,
we just want to go home. So we're just going
to send this kid to the centers. I shit you not.
So I get there and I'm just distraught. I mean,
angry, crying, all that stuff. And so anyway,
he was there for the full 72 hours, finally getting
back. And I start diving into this. And then,
you know, I go to Marion. It's the same thing,
sheriff's office. I need all the records of these
children that are being sent because while Ty
was there, I saw other Liberty School middle
schoolers. I mean, how the hell are all these
children being Baker acted? You know, and this
is a good school system. I'll give my, you know,
overall, it's been a great experience. He just
graduated this summer. And so anyway, I spent
like a hundred and something dollars to pull
these files. And there's just pages of children,
especially at that school with this turd of an
SRO and this turd of a principal. And they were
just like a revolving door, you know, tens and
tens and tens of children Baker Act, you know,
month and month out. And so it just so happens
that I kind of caught the tail end of what was
already being discussed. And it was post Parkland
where all these schools had this knee jerk and
just, well, just send everyone to a psych unit.
Now they're probably all going to be shooters
anyway. The legislation was changed. And if they
had done what they did to my son now, they would
both be behind bars. But at the time, I went
to the school and I went to the sheriff's office
and I told them this is wrong. And they just
blamed each other. And it was the most disgusting
display of cowardice. And, you know, both of
those two people are still working in the sheriff's
office and in the school system. What year was
it? Let me see. It would have been about six
years ago, six, seven years ago now. Yeah. And
so I got to see this. And again, I'm a staunch
supporter of law enforcement. I've been side
by side with some incredible people my whole
career. So as they say, the people that hate
bad cops the worst are good cops. And it's the
same thing with firefighters. But going back
to your point, it was local journalism where
I finally found this. And I had teachers coming
out saying, thank you. We've got these kids whose
parents don't even step up and advocate for these
children while they're being Baker acted. And
I uncovered this whole issue. It just so happened
that I got to it. And then a few months later,
with the help of all these other people that
obviously been in the fight way before me, that
it finally got to the point where it was, you
know, deemed illegal. But the center's had a
great protocol written. And the school and this,
you know, deputy completely disregarded. What
should have happened is they should have sent
someone over, do an evaluation. The whole protocol
was about downgrading. And, you know, contact
the parent was number one as well. So they couldn't
have done anything worse. And neither agency
had the backbone to say that was wrong. And we're
going to look into it and we're going to take
care of it. So that's field policy that. It's
interesting because on its face, it's so obviously
illogical and counterproductive. So how did it
get there? There's plenty of subjects where you
walk away from looking at how things work. It's
obviously not correct. It's obviously against
national recommendations, but it's still happening.
Why? I don't want to think it's because people
don't care. Maybe they just don't understand
how to address the issues of mentally ill students
or adults. And so, you know, their response is
to just hand the problem off to somebody else.
Well, in this case, I mean, they had a well -trained.
And I mean, geographically, it's not far from
the schools at all, you know, where you just
have the humility to say, OK, this is my scope
of practice over to you. But then again, I understand
that there is also, you know, this element where
fire, law enforcement, EMS were expected to kind
of be pseudo, you know, mental health practitioners,
the same with the teachers. So it's really also
about putting in strong lines like, OK, this,
you know, if it's beyond this, don't try and
fix this. Stop and call the people that know.
And I think there's, again, lack of leadership,
you know, maybe an arrogance to it. But, you
know, again, that's not even a dollar amount.
But you think about the trauma that was caused
in that school. Do you think my son ever asked
for help again after that? Probably not. None
of those children ever when they were struggling,
ever going to put their hand up and say, I need
help. And some of them. probably there's going
to be a ripple effect to an overdose or a suicide,
all because of the damage that those two people
did. That's really sad. Yeah. So this is, I mean,
going back to your point, though, this is why
it's so important for this journalism and it's
so important for these voices and these conversations.
Is it uncomfortable? Yes. But I mean, watching,
this isn't politics, watching the cowardice to
stand up and say what was happening in Gaza was
wrong. has really opened my eyes to one of the
issues that we have in this country. If you can't
look at that with tens of thousands of children
through all the other things and then starvation
and say, regardless of backstory and intergenerational
trauma and wars, that this is beyond a response,
then you're a coward. And this is the problem.
We've got a lot of people in this country that
beat their chest and think they're all cowboys.
And when it comes to actually being courageous
in leadership, They've got nothing. And so I
think systemically, this is one of the reasons
why we've seen some of the issues that we have.
You know, you've got the Rootin' Tootin', you
know, sheriff or fire chief who's got their,
you know, stripes on their arm or their bugles
on their collar, but they actually don't have
the backbone or the balls to actually do that
job properly. Yeah. It's funny because with Gaza...
I'm not an expert on that subject at all, but
I've seen what everybody else has seen, and it's
like they're kids. We've got to draw the line.
But as much as the president loves to hate on
journalists, he said Israel, let the journalists
in. They needed independent fact -finders to
report. I would love to see that type of attitude
trickle down locally, and I do sometimes. In
all fairness, I can give you an example, even
Marion County Fire Rescue. They, as you pointed
out, had a lot of troubles a couple years ago.
They were hemorrhaging people and having a hard
time not only keeping their people, but having
enough people to deal with the growth. So the
department was very strained. They have made
changes since then to improve, like policy changes
about inner facility transfers. They've increased
the pay. They've done some good things. They
still have a ways to go, obviously, including
taking your good advice about work hours, but
we won't go there. But after the suicides, And
there were a lot of signs leading up to that
time that things were not good. After the suicides,
when we were looking at, okay, what's going on?
How do we explain this to the public so that
they can support it in the right way? I have
to give Banta some credit. And I'm sure you're
going to be surprised to hear this, but he...
gave me access. For example, he had a town hall
with the department where the chiefs would answer
questions, gripes on anything. And I was like,
Oh, God, this is gonna be bad. But he's gonna
let me sit in the back and listen. And I'm so
grateful he did, because it allowed me to hear
what the concerns were from the people in the
field. You know, if they're worried that their
colleague has a mental health issue or a drug
problem or an alcohol problem, what are going
to be the consequences of them speaking up to
get their friend help? You know, how do drugs
play into treating the stress they have? Can
they have medical marijuana like maybe somebody
in the public can? All of those conversations
allowed me to hear from multiple points of view
and really impacted my ability to write carefully
on the subject because journalists usually shy
away from talking about suicide very much because
studies show that it could actually influence
more of them. So we took a very careful approach.
We were able to shine a light on that. There
has been improvements. There's still a ways to
go. They let one of my reporters even spend 24
hours with the most busy station, and she wrote
honestly. We don't, we're not going to sugarcoat
it. The thing that I respect about our two fire
chiefs is that neither one of them has ever lied
to me, even when they knew the report wasn't
going to be good. I can't say the same about
local law enforcement. So I'm grateful for that.
And they have given me access so that I understand
the stories I'm reporting on as far as infrastructure
goes, understanding how the CADs work, all of
that. But the people, the most delicate balance
of it, they've also helped me understand the
policy and the changes that they're trying to
make. Unfortunately, it's in government. it takes
a little bit longer than it should um yeah that's
seeing the departments that have changed they
just said enough is enough and they changed it
so i kind of you know when people say it's complicated
it's going to take time yeah i mean it might
take time as far as you know okay this is going
to be a three -year transition like pasco did
or two and a half and actually came down to two
because it was so successful that they shaved
off six months but you know what For example,
I saw was IHMC, you know, there was this fully
funded, free, deep dive into what was going on.
These world of experts that work with, you know,
elite warfighters got in this room, you know,
and again, initially no one even talked about
the work week. I had to kind of dip my knuckles
in glass and be aggressive and say, okay, this
is one of the things, let me teach you about
how we work. And then by the end of it, all these
experts said, well, that's obviously number one.
is you got to go to this 42 hour work week. And
that was two years ago and nothing has happened.
So this is what drives me crazy is very few places
in the country had that kind of thing gift wrapped
and given to them. And you have also got a fire
academy, the state fire academy in your county.
How embarrassing is that? that you get class
after class after class, and they don't want
to work for the very place that they just emerged
from. So those two hand in hand, you can be a
nice bloke. I'm a nice bloke, but I'd be a terrible
accountant or a plumber. I'm terrible with my
hands when it comes to building stuff. So just
because you're not a horrible person doesn't
mean that you're actually... you know qualified
to be in that position if you don't have the
courage especially after burying so many of your
own people to step up and say today enough is
enough we're going to make changes instead of
this farting around because i'm not only a you
know an advocate for the fire service i'm a citizen
of marion county and these lack of decisions
affect their ability to rescue my family i do
see since that blue sky report improvements when
it or i don't know if they're improvements yet
i haven't done a follow -up but as far as treatment
of that department the ketamine the ketamine
treatment that's that's you know but i mean that's
new it's new but it's not affecting the core
problem which is that they're working their first
responders to death literally and i have checked
in not only with the chief but with the fire
union and asked you know Are we still losing
a lot of the senior people? And they've told
me that it's slowed down and that right now the
department is actually a lot better balanced
with experienced and new firefighters, which
also is very important to the health of a department.
You need the experience. There's nothing that
can replace that. No, exactly. But even some
of the, I had one of my friends who works there
and he's like, oh yeah, the mandatory overtime
has gone down. And I was like, well, has the
overtime gone down? Oh no, no, there's still
loads to sign up for. Exactly. So what happens
in the fire service, and this is like you're
talking about smoke and mirrors, is if I know
that my friend who just had a child. two months
ago is going to get hit yet again, I'm going
to jump on the grenade for him. You know, if
I was still there now, my son's 18, I'm going
to take one for the team because I refuse to
let that guy not go home to his newborn. So this
is what you see skewing. You know, they can move
these cups around, you know, but it's the same
issue. So I was talking to Jonathan who was there.
He was the ketamine expert. And that's great,
but that's a treatment for someone who's already
broken. You know what I mean? That's not just
a proactive solution. I agree. Quality of life
is really important. And when it comes to their
quality, I think their personal life needs to
be as chill as possible since their job is intense.
So if you're a member of the public and you just
got in an accident, you want that medic not,
you want him showing up alert and ready to help
you. You do not want him exhausted or worried
about how he's going to keep his lights on because
we're not paying him enough. Or his wife is angry
because he got overtime and they had plans. You
want him focused on you. And so the public owes
a duty to first responders to look after their
quality of life. I sort of frown upon our state
leadership. touting that they are pro first responders
by giving out signing bonuses and things like
that when they are leaving at the at the feet
of our first responders societal problems that
they are providing no resources so it's almost
like they're they're paying first responders
for support while they sweep things They don't
want the public to see. They don't want to see
that DCF, Department of Children and Family Services,
doesn't have the resources it needs to take care
of the vulnerable. They don't want the public
to see that they have next to no mental health
resources. And so these people are arrested and
put in jail. When they need treatment. Well,
because the mental health facilities are all
full of middle school kids. They have no space.
Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like they use first responders
to sweep away these societal problems because
they don't want their voter base to see them.
And by doing that, they make the job of the first
responders more dangerous. Yeah. I've always
said the same thing. switching now to the other
side of the conversation because i could not
agree more i mean are the right people in the
right leadership positions you know i would argue
no but when you have an officer involved whatever
there's never a conversation of firstly how how
many hours have they been working by that point
have they been forced into mandatory overtime
are they exhausted is their marriage falling
apart because they're not there what level of
training have they had were the fitness standards
upheld You know, so you've got all those, but
then you never hear, well, what are we doing?
Excuse me, society wise, what are we doing to
create so much crime on the streets? Because
you go to Oslo or Lisbon, there aren't gangs
everywhere. There isn't homelessness all over
the place. Addiction has been, you know, Portugal,
for example, they decriminalized addiction and
now they have almost none. They have some, but
minimal compared to the rest of the world. Very
proactive solutions. So, you know, this is the
other side. And even just operationally, the
fact that we send out a single human being in
a cop car to a call is insanity. And I've asked
people, because I'm not a police officer, but
just from a layman's point, knowing, you know,
being a martial artist, knowing that, you know,
the force multiplier element of having two people
and that impacts on... the officer -involved
shootings, the excessive use of force, all these
other areas, if you've got two people, you're
not going to have as many people run or fight
you. It's just common sense. But that takes,
again, more investment and more pulling people
into the world of law enforcement. But if you're
going to cut their legs off every time they make
an air quotes mistake, that was probably, again,
a ripple effect of the systemic issues that you
have, then what's... dragging anyone into that
profession anymore and then you have this recruitment
crisis and then it's just getting worse I think
there's one area where yes they're working a
difficult job with not a lot of resources and
mistakes are going to happen they are yeah they're
going to happen okay we don't want them to happen
but they are so we'll give you know remedial
for that but the the part as a journalist where
I feel like there needs to be more accountability
is when there's clear signs that they have issues
about truthfulness in keeping policies that are
meant to protect the public. That's where I'm
like, okay, not a lot of grace there. And unfortunately,
in Marion County, we have officers that have
been promoted. to levels of supervision that
were on the state attorney's Brady list of like,
I can't put him on the stand because he's got
an honesty problem. Oh, yeah. And so he, you
know, this one who recently was allowed to resign,
left the sheriff's office, went to OPD, was elevated
to sergeant, continually had problems turning
on his body cam. But another officer's body cam
caught him taunting. a juvenile at a very tense
situation, like picking a fight with him. There
were plenty of red flags up to that moment. Instead,
I don't know if he was a favorite of somebody.
He was given more responsibility. So what does
that, what message does that send to the rest
of the rank and file? Ooh, we need to be friends
with the chief because then. we can get away
with whatever. So I get concerned about that.
But when it comes to supporting them in the work
that they do, it's more than just money. It's
more than just buying them coffee. It's looking
at their whole nucleus, their families, the price
they pay for having an unstable, work schedule
the loss of relationships that can happen um
we can't pay anybody enough risk of cancer all
of it like who would ever do that job yeah exactly
i mean even the thing is as a profession like
both of both of us us and law enforcement i was
saying that someone the other day If you were
going to go work for Publix and, you know, when
you're in there, someone comes out and is like,
oh, you wait 10 years from now, you'll be on
your third marriage and have an alcohol problem.
you are not going to be making pub subs for a
living. You're going to be like, screw this,
I'm going somewhere else. That is the profession
that we've got. And it's insane. You know, and
then, yeah, I mean, we are known to live usually
about five or six years past retirement. That's
it. So you put all that time in, you risk your
life, you miss all these important things with
your family, and then you drop dead, you know.
That's not what should happen. If you're going
to have these men and women that make this ultimate
sacrifice, you know, the well, you know, the
service that I think I think we make up like
one percent of the population, if I'm not mistaken.
And then that shortens your lifespan so much.
You don't even get to do anything when you retire
and see your grandkids. I think it's disgusting.
And, you know, kind of transition a little bit
to get your perspective on. the city and or county
council members because i remember a few years
ago i mean not marion county firefighters were
woefully underpaid and i think when i first moved
here firefighter emt was like nine dollars fifty
cents and that's two separate careers that's
the swiss army knife of the first responder profession
aside from actually being a paramedic and i'll
say it because it's public knowledge and the
video is out there carl zalek who again another
one strutting around his little cowboy hat doing
his, you know, narcissistic videos, laughed at
our firefighters when they asked for a pay raise.
And that is disgusting. These men and women are
working 56 hours a week for $9 .50 or whatever
they were on that pay scale at that point. And
you're laughing at them for wanting a wage when,
you know, one day he's going to be staring up
at a Marion County paramedic or EMT because,
you know, we're all going to need them one day.
And you view them with that much disdain that
you will outwardly laugh when they ask for a
livable wage. I think it's disgusting. And these
are the kind of people that we see in these council
positions that are in themselves the barriers
to the first responders having a healthy environment
and the taxpayer actually getting the response
that they think they're going to get. I do blame
a little bit county administration for not. letting
the commissioners know that they were approving
lots of growth to our community without having
the infrastructure in place. We need to remember
that a lot of these council and commissioners
really have no experience in planning. And so
they rely on staff to tell them, okay. And it
sounds logical. Like if you're going to have,
people over to your house, you worry about, do
you have enough parking? Do you have enough food?
Do you have enough water? Do I need to rent porta
-potties? It's just logical stuff. But for some
reason, when it comes to public safety, for a
while there, because of the economy, they would
say, I think it was about eight years, there
were no pay raises. No anything. So we were really
behind. But now it's better. It's competitive
now. But it took, honestly, it took a lot of
union work to get it switched around. I used
to really frown on unions, to be honest with
you. I've changed my tune. I used to really be
offended with some of the things that they would
do to promote their candidates because it was.
Not always the most ethical means. But when it
came to this particular issue, they had to push
back against Zalek and endorse other candidates
against him. I can't believe he's still there,
honestly. He's up for election this year. No,
next year. And he's already served 16 years.
I'm surprised somebody in the fire department
alone doesn't say, okay, I'll do this next. But
something's better than nothing. He has come
around a little bit. Could we have better leadership?
I think so. I think his track record shows that
he doesn't have a grasp on what it takes. And
it's funny that you bring up those videos. I
haven't reported this yet. It's an example of
how government can really force a certain narrative.
Those videos, he is using tourism tax dollars
to create them. $275 ,000 just this year for
those insider videos. That's insane. You've got
local journalism. We're producing videos on how
people are dying at an abnormal rate at the jail.
I wish I had $275 ,000. to produce them and push
them out into the community. But it's an example
of how government can control the narrative.
Yeah, leaving them in the funding for more firefighters.
I love this town. I love the horse culture here.
I'm a son of a horse vet myself. But that million
and something dollar sculpture that went up on
the bridge as you come in, you're telling me
that was more important than having a fully staffed
first responder community? So that was paid with
tourism development tax. And it was $4 million,
by the way. $4 million? Yes. Oh, my God. Yes.
It is a pretty sign. But it was used, it was
paid for with the bed tax, which if... So the
people that are visiting that would need to...
Call 911 if they had an issue and have local
first responders deal with them. You're dead
on right. You're dead on right. And actually,
it's not just them. It's anybody who is renting
even month to month, technically, is supposed
to be charged the bed tax, which burdens the
poor. So that's a whole other subject. Well,
you mentioned the jail center. Let's talk about
that. And it's, again, even further away from
my understanding. I'm a huge, again, advocate
for any proactive programs. I mean, I've had
the supervisor from Bastoy Prison in Norway on
a couple of times. And there are so many. incredible
models that vastly reduce recidivism. Because,
I mean, ultimately the goal is to not fill our
prisons. And then you look at here, we have,
you know, a lot of private profit -based prisons.
We have workforces that are working for corporate
companies as prisoners for pennies. So, you know,
behind the scenes, obviously there's some, you
know, a lot of things that we, the average taxpayer,
don't realize are going on. And a lot of models
in other countries that are far more effective
than the way we do it now. But that being said,
that's the only kind of area I've really talked
about. What are some of the issues that we're
having locally in our prisons and jails at the
moment? So we have a very high recidivism rate.
If you pulled the list, you'd have people arrested
90 times, 60 times, 50 times, lots of them. And
it's because they're usually homeless, mentally
ill, and so they're in the system. Unfortunately,
as a society, we've criminalized this and we
don't have leadership that's able to have a full
conversation. So, for example, say there's one
inmate that died. He was 39 years old. He was
on probation and didn't pass a drug test, a urinalysis
test. And so they arrested him and put him in
jail. there was a time where you would hear members
of the public say, well, he's at the jail, he's
detoxing, it should be okay at least. No, the
jail is a very dangerous place to detox. They
don't have what they need. And this particular
young man ended up becoming very sick with meningitis
while he was there. And rather than take him
to the ER, they basically let him die in the
jail. And when he couldn't get up to obey an
order in the infirmary, couldn't get up to obey
to have restraints put on him, they pepper sprayed
him. Like the day he's dying because he can't
move. So this is just one story. It's not isolated.
And so what happened, the reason we started investigating
is we were really focused on the mentally ill.
press release comes from the sheriff's office
that acknowledges there was an in custody death
of a man named Scott Whitley. He was schizophrenic.
He was held. This is not what they told us in
the press release and the press release. They
made it sound like there was a, he was not submitting
to restraints and so, and became combative. And
so in the incident, he was tased and died. We
found out he was schizophrenic, held naked in
a cell, a concrete cell with no bedding, no anything,
no meds for a week. He was arrested on a civil,
he didn't want to leave his home and he was being
evicted. So they asked him, they said they want
to do a cell inspection. In that interchange,
six guards beat him. One has a taser by his neck
and the other by his groin. 27 times they tase
him. Oh, my God. It's all caught on video. And
I'm like, I want to see the video. And the jail
gets to claim security exemptions. So what they
do is. We learn of incidents like this and they're
like, yeah, sorry, can't give it to you because
it's all exempt. Florida statute exempts any
facility. So there is a way to seek a court's
help to overcome the exemption if we can prove
that it's in the public's best interest. So it
took a while, but we found a lawyer because Whitley
died in November of 2022. We found a lawyer eventually
that would help us file a lawsuit against the
sheriff's office to see the video. The family
was able to see the video under a gag order and
they told us he complied and they still did this
to him. So our argument to the court was handling
the mentally ill is a societal problem. We need
to show the public. what happens to these people
when they end up in our judicial system. And
it was interesting because the court heard our
testimony and then said he would issue his order.
The next morning, he entered an order recusing
himself. And it got sent to a judge outside our
county, which is... highly unusual for a judge
to hear a case and then a case be transferred.
I have a lot of respect for the judiciary and
the confines in which they have to make decisions.
If a judge feels like he needs to recuse himself,
he should recuse himself. But the next judge
entered an order in our favor. The only thing
he said is, you can't release this video to the
public. But the sheriff has to let you see it.
So me and another reporter, Caroline, we went
to the sheriff's office. We sat in the room with
the same public information officer that lied
to us about what happened and watched the video.
And sure enough, this man, before they rush him,
they tell him to sit on the toilet. And we saw
him sit. And as they are rushing him, put up
his hands like. In defense of, please, no. And
they still slammed him into the wall and did
what they did. Then we realized by looking at
the timestamp that they waited six minutes to
call for EMS. He was already dead. But that having
that aha moment of watching it and going, wait
a second. FDLE investigated this one, and they
didn't correct the sheriff's narrative. The state
attorney watched this. They didn't correct the
sheriff's narrative. If it had been six people,
not guards, that had rushed this mentally ill
man and killed him, they would be facing charges
probably. But instead, because they're guards
that work for the sheriff's office, it's covered
up. And once we realized, OK, wait a second,
there are so many people willing to lie about
this. What else is happening here? It even surprised
us. So we asked the question, can we have all
of the incident reports for in custody deaths?
I think we got like 27. Oh, my goodness. Within
a time frame of just a couple of years. And so.
We reached out to FDLE and we asked, can we have
the in -custody death reports that the sheriff
is supposed to file? Well, they had 17. And then
we asked the state attorney's office, how many
in -custody deaths have you investigated? Basically,
they had investigated none. All they gave us
was three FDLE. of investigations for in -custody
deaths. And one of them, FDLE and the Sheriff's
Office hadn't given us, but I had known about.
I just didn't know how to get to, so I was grateful.
But tracking down how many had died, we learned
that even though there's this federal in -custody
death reporting act, there's no state mechanism
in Florida to enforce it. In this particular
case, I was concerned about the medical provider
at the jail that also provides services to Sumter
County Jail. So I asked FDLE for all the in -custody
death reporting for Sumter and Marion. And at
a state level, we have to get a lawyer involved
anytime we make a records request. That's how
bad the transparency issues are. So we did our
request for in -custody death reports, had our
lawyer serve a notice of intent. give us the
records. Because of that, the person fulfilling
the records request called me. And this never
happens. But she wanted me to understand what
was wrong. She goes, I'm going to send you Marion
County's, but there's none from Sumter, but I
need you to understand why. These in custody
death reports go to the grants department of
FDLE. The only way we can enforce the federal,
you know. Reporting Act is if they ask for grants
and Sumter County hasn't asked for any grants.
So Marion County Sheriff has. That's why they're
there. I wonder about Sumter County, but I've
since learned their guards wear body cams. And
I've heard it's a little different there than
what we see in Marion County. But once we realized.
how many had died, and we started digging into
what happened. There continued to be concerns
about the guards beating people, particularly
the mentally ill, but also clear evidence of
medical neglect. So we started asking questions
about that. It's led us to a point where, you
know, our local in custody death rate at the
jail is four times higher than the national average.
Something is wrong. And yet from this reporting,
community members have told me that they've gone
to the sheriff. What's the problem? What's going
on? And just last month, he told the county commissioners,
Heart of Florida, which is the medical provider,
is doing a great job no matter what you hear
in those articles. What do you say to that? Like,
who's in denial? So what we're trying to do is
bring it in front of the public as much as possible.
And really, what my hope is... There's a federal
cause of action under, it's called Mundell. It's
where you can prove that there is a, an agency
has created a policy facilitates a violation
of people's constitutional rights. You should
not be tortured in a local jail waiting for your
day in court. If you're epileptic, you should
be given your meds. I mean, we're talking real
basics. And yet that's what's happening at the
Marion County Jail. It's horrible. One whistleblower
rose up around this time, a nurse. She was the
medical liaison unsworn at the sheriff's office.
I got the reports that she did for a good part
of four years showing major deficiencies with
Heart of Florida's staffing, the timing that
they were responding to inmate sick calls. Instead
of fixing it, they fired her and did not rehire
anybody else to do the monitoring. So for the
past year, since August of last year, all that
reporting went away. And so a new major was put
over the jail. So I was hopeful. I'm like, you
know, maybe he'll fix things. So I asked the
new major for an interview. I'm really hopeful
for his success. I want to hear the things you're
going to do. He declined. So at that point, we're
like, there's no compliance reporting. We know
people are still dying. We need to go to the
public now because wrapped up in all these exemptions,
they're able to hide what they're doing. So we
did. We did a call to the public. We need families
to step up. We need inmates. that have been abused
this way to give us medical authorizations so
we can review the records. And that's where we
are now. How is the capacity in the jail? And
then what about, again, the... The demand for
people that work in the jail as far as it is
it, you know, a high turnover, et cetera, et
cetera. So the sheriff during the last budget
meeting with the commissioners did say that they
were. They did have some changeover. I can see
somebody decent not wanting to work under those
conditions. But they had a new. new batch that
they were going to graduate. But I'm reading,
like, for example, this year, we asked, I think
it was in May, for all of the use of force reports
for the jail, just for this year, from January
to like through May, or June. And it was about
100 of them. And so we went through each one,
compared what was happening in their legal case.
And looked at all the common factors. By far,
some of these people were deemed incompetent
by the courts even. And there's pictures of them,
black and blue, strapped to a restraint chair
for 15 hours. Like, really serious. consequences
for being mentally ill. And yet, and the reason
I had to order those use of force reports and
do it the long way, the hard way, it was because
the major said by email, although he would not
give me the interview, that he had improved use
of force since he came on board. If this is an
improvement, God help us all. So now we're trying
to figure out how do we report On that, because
these people are still living and we want to
somehow protect their dignity. But this is really
a problem that involves the courts, too, because
we have a mental health court. But it has very
it has limitations. The person has to be compliant,
willing to be part of the mental health court.
Some of these people can't. They're just not
able. They can't have any violence associated
with their charges. Well, if you look at the
charges of almost all of these people that we
found use of force and incompetency proceedings
on, they're charged with felony of battery on
an officer. And it might have just been a scratch,
but it's charges that keep them from ending up
in the mental health court. So there's all these
limitations and then nobody providing oversight
for them. The judges aren't getting all these
incident reports to know that the person they're
waiting on a hearing for is being beaten because
he's not getting his meds and they don't have
the facilities to take care of them. So it's
really a sad situation. So what we're trying
to do is educate all these different supporting
agencies like the court system. This is what's
happening over at the jail that nobody's telling
you. Because I'm sure a judge wouldn't sentence
somebody on a misdemeanor charge knowing that
it was going to kill them. A judge wouldn't.
So, you know, what's the disconnect? I think
the public thinks that all of these agencies
talk more than they do. They don't. There's little
to no accountability outside their community.
That means the public has to stay engaged, and
they need local journalists chasing down, getting
past the barriers that are put up. I will say,
doing this type of work, though, it also reminds
me of how many good people there are, too. And
these lone voices, like this whistleblower, this
medical liaison. We need to hear those voices
because they're being pushed out because they
don't want to fix the problem. That's not right.
And I think it's another reason why I worry about
unions for law enforcement, because in our local
area, I didn't realize it, but they are really
just part of the Fraternal Order of Police. They're
not part of the Police Benevolence Association
that much. One is definitely stronger than another
in protecting their workers. I have come to sort
of an opinion that OPD and Marion County Sheriff's
Office, if they had stronger union support, would
be able to defend and speak truth to power in
their own agency. When you're talking about accountability,
when I reflect again, I remember saying, all
right, if people, what happened with my son,
because they basically kidnapped my child is
what happened. So where's the checks and balances?
And they were like, I said, so you can basically
do this on a whim and there is no repercussions
whatsoever at that point yet, which is again
when the law changed and now there would be.
But this is the issue is that these are, you
know, these decisions are. Costing lives, costing
mental health, whatever it is. And I think from
the jail and from the prison point of view, on
the other side of the coin again, trying to be
fair, obviously not these extreme levels of abuse
because that's its own thing. But these corrections
officers are in prison too. 12 -hour shifts,
don't see daylight, outnumbered. Again, understaffed,
overworked. I know someone who works from the
nursing side. She's treated awfully. Um, so yeah,
I mean, this is, this is a systemic problem.
And then again, like you said, we're talking
about proactivity and the facetivism is that
high and you don't have the ability to deal with
these mental health issues. And let's circle
around to your father and all these other, but
that's a mental health issue. These people didn't,
you know. weren't giggling toddlers going oh
i hope i have you know schizophrenia when i'm
older or ptsd or i hope i'm addicted to to meth
no the things happened to them and it took them
down that road and we don't look at look at it
with empathy and it blows my mind because i see
a lot of churches around here and other you know
places of worship Pretty sure Jesus wouldn't
be like, well, just lock them up and then slap
them around a little bit. That will bring them
around from their addiction. No, of course not.
So we're even disconnected from the very faith
that's supposed to be embedded in this area.
And again, there are solutions. There are places
around the world where it works really well.
Norway's compassionate version of prison. And
don't get me wrong, that turd that shut up that
summer camp in Norway, he's in a box. like Hannibal
Lecter. But the rest of them, they realize that
there is an ability to rehabilitate them. They're
in houses. They've lost their freedom, but they
live together in a house. They cook, they clean,
they go to work, they go to school. Because one
day they are going to move next door to you.
They're going to move back to your street. And
this is the philosophy that I don't see here.
You know, again, these sheriffs, you know, beating
their chest, talking about how tough they are
on whatever. Well, we know that war on drugs
is an epic failure of 80 plus years. And you're
buying into that. It's not worked. You know,
addiction is a mental health crisis. And can
you get everyone? No, but we could make a huge
impact, not only on the civilians, but. I mean,
you know, I know of many firefighters locally,
there was an opioid overdose that killed them.
And then we have the suicides. So in uniform,
out uniform, it's the same exact conversation.
You don't fix it with locking people in cages.
You fix it with proactively. figuring out what
is the root cause of this and how can we address
that and invest in addiction counseling and mental
health counseling and job creation and housing
and these things that will put people back on
their feet and the ones that are really beyond
help that have these extreme mental health disorders.
Those are the ones then that you're able to put
in these facilities and take care of. Yeah, I
agree. I think that one of the challenges is
shame. So, for example, if somebody was arrested
and abused at the jail, they probably don't want
me writing about it. So I'm trying to navigate,
you know, how do I tell these stories? How do
I get families to be honest about what's happening?
There was one family who was new to Marion County,
and they had a schizophrenic daughter that they
called officers to Baker Actor. They could tell
she had a cycle of just needing an intervention
greater than what they could give. But the mother
had taken care of her daughter as good as she
could. They came to their house. They handled
it poorly. And when they went to grab her hands
to take her, she started flailing. I don't think
she was. trying to hurt the officers, but she
had a ball she was holding. And they tackled
her to the ground and tased her in front of her
son, her mother, her sister. Then they got her
outside and medics looked at her. I got to hand
it to those medics. I was so proud of them when
I watched the video. the body cam footage because
they put her in the ambulance and asked her questions
and at that point law enforcement deputies sheriff's
office had decided that they were going to charge
her with three counts of felony battery on an
officer and the supervisor came and told the
medics go ahead let's just take her to the jail
the nurse will check her out and the medics were
like no She's not okay. We need to take her to
the hospital. And they had to stand there in
the street arguing with a superior officer at
the sheriff's office just to get this woman care.
That's moral courage, though. Yes, I was so proud
of them. I wish they could have heard me clapping,
you know. And I think that happens probably more
often than the public realizes. But this poor
family ended up having to spend so much money
to get their... loved one out of jail the the
the person was traumatized more certainly we
have to have a better system than this she wasn't
a criminal she wanted her ball like yeah i mean
even some of the people i've had on the show
that are first responders that also have special
needs children you know i mean and they're educated
and i was kind of late to the education on this
one i was pretty much out of my career when i
started having these conversations but you know
the the down syndrome um you know men and women
have a very high tolerance for pain so if they're
presenting you know like they're in discomfort
there's probably something really wrong you know
autism you know you you've got someone who's
autistic and now you know they're pulled over
by law enforcement Can that be misinterpreted
with violence or a threat? And now they've been
killed and they were just freaked out because
a dude in a tactical vest and a gun on his hip
presented the wrong way. And so these are the
nuances, even taking out mental health, just
some of our special needs population and how
some of them have been beaten up or even killed.
Absolutely. And these families are now afraid
to call for help. They're afraid to call for
help. That is dangerous because some of these
people are dangerous. Some of them need to be
forced to take their meds, but their families
are trying to protect them. And that's really
a societal problem. How do we support the families
trying to take care of special needs folks that
need interventions on a regular basis? And in
that particular case with this family, when they
arrested her instead, because after the hospital,
she was taken to jail, the sheriff's office went
on Facebook and bragged about their arrest of
a woman who committed battery on law enforcement,
not giving any of the context that the family
had called to Baker actor, and that it was literally
a scratch. I don't even know if they can prove
that she scratched the officer. At some point,
when you're trying to protect the public, sometimes
you're also needing to protect the public from
themselves. And I'm sure that's a really hard
mentality, like a switch. But we need special
training. We need maybe people that are specially
trained. doing those calls instead of law enforcement
maybe um something has to change yeah well it
goes back to what we're saying sometimes yeah
we're um put in the place where it should be
maybe you know mental health practitioner and
in our profession for example you know we have
this combative patient then we're able to tie
them to the stretcher and then you know give
them drugs and calm them down you know but we're
not fighting them we're not punching them in
the face But yeah, there's other times where,
you know, you're able to de -escalate or maybe
avoid it in the first place just by the way you
present and you understand these kind of, you
know, whether it's a special needs person, whether
it's someone with a mental health presentation.
And I think we make it worse because we under
-equip these police officers and again, under
-train them. You know, the more the recruitment
crisis, you know, becomes prevalent, the less
experience these people have. Then we have, you
know, a very violent. society so now obviously
a lot of our law enforcement officers are murdered
literally on a daily basis so then does that
create more of a hair trigger of course we all
want to go home to our families so i think this
is the issue is it's not one place you know it's
it's all all these tears you know whether it's
The citizens themselves understanding what our
first responders do, whether it's, you know,
how we treat our own homeless and addicts. And,
you know, again, no toddler dreamt of becoming
in a gang, you know, joining a gang or becoming
an addict. It's like, why are we not looking
at with that compassionate, you know, Buddha,
Jesus, insert your profit here lens on society.
And then if we are going to ask these people
to put on a uniform and mitigate everything else
that we've got to get behind them, fund them,
give a work week that's healthy. But absolutely
put that bar high where it should be, because,
you know, lives really are at stake. I can take
a life with the wrong man and a cop can take
a life with the taser or the pistol. I really
think that on a broader scale, communities need
to figure out a way to become connected again.
Unfortunately, like families, for example, that
have a special needs child that might. Feel hesitant
to have other people around because they'll be
impatient with the child or go out in public.
They really have to live sort of isolated. And
that's not fair. It's not good for the families
trying to take care of them. And then also understanding
being close with our community that the first
responders need to be close to the community.
You know, it's not just a job. I think that there
is efforts and I would like to compliment particularly
OPD on that. I do think they are doing more community
outreach. So I do see slow recognition of we
need to understand each other and that needs
to be done on a greater level. People need to
know who their neighbors are because technically
that's your first responder. The person right
next to you is your first responder. So if all
of us were looking out for each of us, each other,
whether it be walking past each other in a parking
lot, seeing your neighbor slumped over in the
yard, needing somebody, public safety is in all
of our hands. It's not just first responders'
job. And I think when we start taking responsibility
for How am I protecting my family? What information
do I need to protect my family and then my greater
community? I think if people approached it that
way, we'd have better conversations because they
would feel it. They wouldn't wait till it impacts
their family. They would be proactive. And that's
what I hope reading our stories makes them think
about. You know, if medics in our town are the
fastest on scene, they often are. But they can't
go into the home because it hasn't been cleared
by law enforcement first. Like, the public needs
to understand that. I mean, there are things
that could be done, but they have to be demanded.
As a kind of final comment, if you were queen
for a day, what were the things that we need
to start moving towards so we can change some
of the issues that we highlighted today? I've
been asked in the past what holds Marion County
back from being the best it can be. And they
thought I was going to automatically complain
about our elected officials. And although there
are some that need to be replaced, I think the
cronyism is what protects the people that are
doing the wrong thing. I think we need to normalize
disagreeing with each other and calling powerful
people out that are not doing the right thing.
There is a hesitation to do that. And I think
that the public will get the community they deserve
when they start demanding it instead of being
apathetic. If I could change that one thing,
don't be apathetic. Use your voice to demand
better and to demand accountability. If my community
would do that, I think we could. be so much better
than we are now um i mean i think that's you
know it's such a important perspective and it's
underlined by the pandemic i just had a conversation
with a guy i've had on Six times now, strength
and conditioning coach. He's originally French,
lived in the US for a while. Now he's in Brazil.
But we're talking about the pandemic and the
impact that it had on the nation's physical health,
mental health, and then even the fitness industry,
like all the gyms that were destroyed when they
shut everything down. And that was his thing.
It's like, OK, you know, now we're three years
plus later. Where's the accountability? Where's
the reflection on what do we do right? What do
we do wrong? Who lied to us? Who told us the
truth? What was the good advice? What was the
bad advice? But again, there was no outcry for
that. There was no public saying, you know, we
need to change things so that if another, when
another virus sweeps through the planet, that
we're more prepared. And that involves, you know,
everything from putting real food back in schools,
PE programs, bolstering, you know, sports and
arts. pedestrianizing downtowns and all the things
so that you can learn from what happened before
and make it better but i agree with you completely
and this is the you know the whole point of this
podcast is there's no one that's off the radar
like if you're not you know if your decisions
are negatively affecting a community then you
know i'm gonna bring it up because A, I don't
work for anyone. That's what, you know, obviously
infuriates some of the people locally. But B,
if it's wrong, it's just wrong. You know, whether
it's Gaza or first responders losing their jobs
because they didn't have a vaccine or, you know,
talking about underlying health conditions during
COVID, whatever the thing is, if it's wrong,
it's wrong. And this is the point is that there
are many things that we could do so much better.
You know, in Marion County, I just see the sprawling,
you know, businesses and we've got WECC and all
the housing going everywhere. There's no reason
why we shouldn't be able to fix this, you know,
these issues if there's all this industry coming,
all this tourism coming. So, you know, but the
only way we're going to do that is if people
are, you know, complacent and turning their heads
and someone's going to have to grab them by the
cheeks and straighten it back up again. And how
do you do that? With exactly what we're doing
now and with what you're doing. Yeah, but also
our elected officials. being honest about the
problems instead they send out press releases
constantly self -congratulating themselves for
you know and it creates a disconnect because
the people feel like wow it's so great then why
is it so bad for me well i've said this and people
to really understand if now if people listening
this and haven't heard this for the first time
we're talking about you know for example the
fire service That your delivery of service has
got worse and worse and worse. It has. And, you
know, up to very recently, the rescue that should
have been available to protect your family was
being paid by a hospital to transport private
patients to a different hospital and unavailable
for you. Then where's your tax refund? You know,
so this is the thing with these elected officials
is they're not telling the taxpayer. That the
average collective age on that fire engine of
experience might be seven years total between
three or four people, where it might have been
70 years, you know, 10, 20 years ago. That, you
know, the closest station now might be two stations
away because, again, you know, they're off doing
something that they shouldn't be doing for some
private entity. You know, I mean, all these different
areas that the person is not going to be able
to make it up the stairs because they lowered
the hiring standards and that person. you know,
is extremely overweight and unfit. I mean, these
are all pertinent things, but we're not telling
the taxpayer that. I am. Oh, I am too. Yeah,
yeah. Of course. I am because like people need
to understand when they move to a neighborhood,
they need to, how close are they to a fire station?
And in my case, I live in the county, but I'm
a half block out of the city's district. If my
house is on fire, the city's closer. To respond.
And thank goodness there's interlocal agreements
that would have them respond. But then it depends
where my call went. Also, if I'm calling from
my cell phone. So there are so many aspects,
so many variables. That. Absolutely. Well, for
people listening. Whether it's related to some
of the issues that you brought up and people
wanting to reach out specifically with their
own experiences or just in general, where are
the best places to find you online and the paper?
Sure. We publish at OcalaGazette .com and I'm
easy to reach. My email is Jennifer at OcalaGazette
.com. I am very open to hearing whether it be
from first responders. I can hold confidence.
If I need to know something, please reach out
and tell me. Members of the public that are suffering
in the community for lack of services, maybe
for either the mentally ill or, to your point,
students that are being caught up in our juvenile
system, please reach out. Those are all issues
we are trying very hard to get to the bottom
of and put faces to if we can. I believe journalism
can make. the community safer. Well, I want to
thank you so much. It's been an amazing conversation.
You know, I think that podcasting obviously isn't
true journalism, but it's a really interesting
medium to bring people on, you know, that have
that information, that have that expertise and
help disseminate it. So it's been a phenomenal
conversation. I want to thank you for being so
generous with your time and coming on the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Thanks. I appreciate
you.