WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.180 This episode is sponsored by NuCalm, and as 00:00:02.180 --> 00:00:04.459 many of you know, I only bring sponsors onto 00:00:04.459 --> 00:00:08.480 this show whose products I truly swear by. Now, 00:00:08.500 --> 00:00:11.019 we are an overworked and underslept population, 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.000 especially those of us that wear uniform for 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.059 a living, and trying to reclaim some of the lost 00:00:17.059 --> 00:00:20.679 rest and recovery is imperative. Now, the application 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:23.260 of this product is as simple as putting on headphones 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:26.640 and a sleep mask. 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So one powerful 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:52.469 application is using the program PowerNap. a 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:55.149 20 -minute session that will not only feel like 00:00:55.149 --> 00:00:58.310 you've had two hours of sleep, but also down 00:00:58.310 --> 00:01:01.409 -regulate from a hypervigilant state back into 00:01:01.409 --> 00:01:04.450 the role of mother or father, husband or wife. 00:01:04.730 --> 00:01:07.790 Now, there are so many other applications and 00:01:07.790 --> 00:01:10.250 benefits from this software, so I urge you to 00:01:10.250 --> 00:01:15.590 go and listen to episode 806 with CEO Jim Poole. 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:20.140 Then download NuCalm, N -U -C -A -L -M, from 00:01:20.140 --> 00:01:23.040 your app store and sign up for the seven -day 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:26.420 free trial. Not only will you have an understanding 00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:29.480 of the origin story and the four decades this 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:32.519 science has spanned, but also see for yourself 00:01:32.519 --> 00:01:36.260 the incredible health impact of this life -changing 00:01:36.260 --> 00:01:39.439 software. And you can find even more information 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:44.019 on NuCalm .com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield 00:01:44.019 --> 00:01:46.140 podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing, 00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:48.180 and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome 00:01:48.180 --> 00:01:52.299 back onto the show Education Director for FDIC, 00:01:52.579 --> 00:01:55.760 Editor -in -Chief for Fire Engineering, and Chief 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:59.340 Elder for the Georgia Smoke Diver Program, Chief 00:01:59.340 --> 00:02:02.840 David Rhodes. Now, in this second conversation, 00:02:03.019 --> 00:02:06.640 we discuss a host of topics. The importance of 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.240 leadership in education, special operations training, 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:13.520 the impact of organizational betrayal on the 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.979 fire service, the recruitment crisis, the 2472, 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:22.259 PFAS, some incredible fire service innovations 00:02:22.259 --> 00:02:26.900 happening at FDIC, and so much more. Now, before 00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:28.979 we get to this incredible conversation, as I 00:02:28.979 --> 00:02:32.259 say every week, please just take a moment. Go 00:02:32.259 --> 00:02:34.840 to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.569 to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating. 00:02:39.009 --> 00:02:42.569 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:02:42.569 --> 00:02:45.370 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:02:45.370 --> 00:02:48.969 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:02:48.969 --> 00:02:53.810 well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in 00:02:53.810 --> 00:02:56.930 return is that you help share these incredible 00:02:56.930 --> 00:02:59.849 men and women's stories so I can get them to 00:02:59.849 --> 00:03:02.849 every single person on planet Earth who needs 00:03:02.849 --> 00:03:05.979 to hear them. So with that being said... Welcome 00:03:05.979 --> 00:03:10.599 back onto the show, Chief David Rhodes. Enjoy. 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:32.620 Well, David, I want to start by saying welcome 00:03:32.620 --> 00:03:35.199 back to the Behind the Shield podcast. The last 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.219 time we spoke was beginning of 2019, episode 00:03:38.219 --> 00:03:42.719 168. You were still Smoke Daddy and still working 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.620 at Atlanta. So I know we've got a lot to discuss, 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:47.400 but I firstly just want to welcome you back. 00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:51.759 Yeah, man. It's great to see you and good to 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:55.259 see how much you've grown since then. It's been 00:03:55.259 --> 00:03:58.659 a journey. So I think I guess the first icebreaker 00:03:58.659 --> 00:04:01.879 then would be to talk about what made you finally 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:05.599 pull the trigger as far as retirement. And then, 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:08.199 as you know, we are both fully aware that can 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:10.659 be very jarring for a lot of men and women in 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:12.979 uniform. How was your transition specifically? 00:04:14.020 --> 00:04:21.019 I was ready to go the last last couple of years 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:24.560 with the. All the stuff that happened with the 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:29.980 attempted firing and the demotion and then re 00:04:29.980 --> 00:04:35.060 -promotion was an interesting time. But I was 00:04:35.060 --> 00:04:39.600 in an area where definitely wasn't getting the 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:46.040 fire calls that I was used to. And so we did 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:49.100 training quite a bit in that battalion and had 00:04:49.100 --> 00:04:54.069 some great crews. But I was really fastly approaching 00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:57.790 30 years there, which was 36 years total in the 00:04:57.790 --> 00:05:01.910 fire service. And I had kind of been contemplating 00:05:01.910 --> 00:05:07.870 it. And gosh, we had that big civil unrest in 00:05:07.870 --> 00:05:14.589 2020. And I think I had six back -to -back decent 00:05:14.589 --> 00:05:17.509 structure fires and all kinds of crazy stuff 00:05:17.509 --> 00:05:19.689 happened that night. And it was like the most 00:05:19.689 --> 00:05:22.990 epic shift. ever and i was like you know what 00:05:22.990 --> 00:05:25.689 i should probably go right now because i'll never 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:29.089 top this and i didn't i stuck around another 00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:35.290 another six or eight months or so and and i did 00:05:35.290 --> 00:05:39.069 end up going about six months early from my birthday 00:05:39.069 --> 00:05:42.170 but it didn't really have any effect on my uh 00:05:42.170 --> 00:05:47.529 benefits very much and uh um i did it was just 00:05:47.529 --> 00:05:53.500 time to go and uh A year after that, you know, 00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:59.379 Bobby Halton hired me full time to be his heir 00:05:59.379 --> 00:06:04.360 apparent and sort of CEO for FDIC and fire engineering, 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:07.800 take a little bit of load off of him. And so 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.560 I was still in the game. I was still doing my 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.800 consulting. in training and doing promotional 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:16.540 exams so i wasn't really out of the fire service 00:06:16.540 --> 00:06:19.220 completely i just wasn't going in working shift 00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:23.199 work so it was a little different for me probably 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.759 than most people because i was still so close 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.720 to the business so i really enjoyed that first 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:35.819 year off i was really getting big into golf and 00:06:35.819 --> 00:06:40.180 my schedule i could set my own schedule and I 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:43.040 was probably playing twice a week. And then when 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:45.420 Bobby hired me, all that went to a stop and I 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:49.160 was right back into the grind. When you say 2020, 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.399 that was the ripple effect of the George Floyd 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.740 incident? You know, I don't even remember. I 00:06:54.740 --> 00:06:59.740 think so. We had so many over the years, but 00:06:59.740 --> 00:07:03.439 I think that was probably it. It may have been. 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.019 We had some stuff go on, too. We had the shooting 00:07:08.019 --> 00:07:14.439 at Wendy's where the guy got in a scuffle with 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:17.019 a police officer, stole his taser, fired it at 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:20.060 him, and the guy returned real fire and killed 00:07:20.060 --> 00:07:24.019 him. And that was a big part, too. So I can't 00:07:24.019 --> 00:07:26.339 remember if it was that specifically or if it 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:30.920 was leftover from Floyd. Over my career, I had 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.240 about four. Four periods of pretty good civil 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:40.279 unrest. So this last one was probably the most 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:44.459 destructive. Every single windshield on every 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:49.399 fire apparatus in my battalion was busted. And 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:51.660 one of the mutual aid companies that responded, 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:55.819 the very first call we went on, they turned the 00:07:55.819 --> 00:07:58.459 corner and they just got destroyed with bricks. 00:08:00.679 --> 00:08:03.980 And their battalion chief made them retreat back 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:06.000 to their home territory and wouldn't let them 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.660 come back. And we just kept on rolling. We just 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:14.519 kept on rolling. Tear gas everywhere. And like 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.459 I said, you don't want to see that happen in 00:08:17.459 --> 00:08:22.699 your city. But from an incident response perspective, 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:28.310 it was definitely epic. When you reflect back 00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:30.290 now, you've obviously got leadership roles in 00:08:30.290 --> 00:08:32.850 so many different areas, and you've worked in 00:08:32.850 --> 00:08:37.009 a very diverse city in the US for numerous decades 00:08:37.009 --> 00:08:43.429 now. What is the underlying issue that is causing... 00:08:43.850 --> 00:08:47.049 this uprising in, you know, in communities that 00:08:47.049 --> 00:08:48.889 otherwise, you know, I mean, if I go out my front 00:08:48.889 --> 00:08:50.789 door now, you know, that we've got all colors 00:08:50.789 --> 00:08:52.870 and creeds where I work and where I live, excuse 00:08:52.870 --> 00:08:54.950 me, you know, so I would argue that is a norm 00:08:54.950 --> 00:08:58.169 in the US. So what are you seeing as far as the 00:08:58.169 --> 00:09:00.730 gas that's being thrown on the fire that's causing 00:09:00.730 --> 00:09:06.129 these extreme events? I think the majority of 00:09:06.129 --> 00:09:11.590 what happens is, is, is coordinated. It's coordinated 00:09:11.590 --> 00:09:16.059 on a big scale. We saw trucks dropping off pallets 00:09:16.059 --> 00:09:21.080 of bricks on the corner. It's being funded somewhere. 00:09:21.419 --> 00:09:24.620 And I think what happens is just they're experts 00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:27.679 at human nature and they know if they can insert 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.879 100, 200 people in and break a few windows, then 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.899 the local people who show up to join the fun 00:09:35.899 --> 00:09:40.360 are going to jump right in. and join the party. 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.860 But, I mean, we saw it. You could tell the professionals, 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:48.000 you know, the way they were dressed, the actions 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:50.460 that they took, and you would see them, you know, 00:09:50.460 --> 00:09:54.600 smash a retail store window with a skateboard 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.960 and jump in, and then, you know, 100 people would 00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.980 follow them, and then you'd see them sneak right 00:09:59.980 --> 00:10:04.159 back out, you know, in a few seconds. So it's 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:08.759 a sad deal, but I think. You know, I think that 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:13.320 there's legitimate protests where people, you 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:17.320 know, they go and file a permit to hold a protest 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.559 and they're very peaceful and they hold their 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.500 signs and say their positions. And I mean, that's 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:28.860 the American way. But some of these were definitely 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:34.980 fueled by some massive. national organization. 00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:38.019 I'm convinced of that for sure. You could see 00:10:38.019 --> 00:10:41.159 it. Absolutely. What about the kind of, you know, 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:44.299 stories from those events and as far as whether 00:10:44.299 --> 00:10:47.080 it was, you know, the structural operational 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.399 side or even, you know, stories of compassion 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:53.860 or heroism that you witnessed? Yeah. Well, one 00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:56.519 incident that was, I think it was our last incident 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.320 of the night was a fire at a Target retail store, 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:05.820 big Target store. There were people coming out 00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:10.139 of the store as we were going in and it was such 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:15.120 a professional job. There were rented trucks 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.059 backed up to the loading docks. And, you know, 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.100 the whole TV section was was wiped out in the 00:11:23.100 --> 00:11:28.659 phone section. And and again, back to the coordination, 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:32.419 you know that like you can't go rent a truck 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:36.230 and. three or four hours and plan that out and, 00:11:36.230 --> 00:11:39.909 uh, and make it happen. But, uh, it was, it was 00:11:39.909 --> 00:11:44.049 very, very, very structured and, and, uh, um, 00:11:44.070 --> 00:11:47.370 you know, the store was a total loss and, and, 00:11:47.470 --> 00:11:51.590 uh, never reopened. So, um, compassion wise. 00:11:51.730 --> 00:11:56.509 Yeah. You saw a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, people 00:11:56.509 --> 00:12:01.389 were trying to help and trying to, uh, um, We 00:12:01.389 --> 00:12:03.289 had a couple apartment fires. There were, you 00:12:03.289 --> 00:12:04.990 know, people from the apartments trying to help 00:12:04.990 --> 00:12:12.009 pull hoes and keep people back. And, you know, 00:12:12.029 --> 00:12:14.870 they're just trying to save their resident, you 00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:17.529 know, where they live and save their stuff. And 00:12:17.529 --> 00:12:21.529 obviously we're very short staff. Trucks can't 00:12:21.529 --> 00:12:23.590 get in from all directions. So you're starting 00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:28.190 out with kind of a small crew. So, again, you 00:12:28.190 --> 00:12:30.009 know, the good thing is it wasn't the majority 00:12:30.009 --> 00:12:34.230 of people, but it was a very large, large crowd. 00:12:34.409 --> 00:12:37.590 And they moved in waves in different parts of 00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:41.710 the city. We actually heard the I had about four 00:12:41.710 --> 00:12:44.049 radios going. So I was listening to police and 00:12:44.049 --> 00:12:47.730 the fire channels and we heard them. The like 00:12:47.730 --> 00:12:50.289 the undercover officers that were in the crowd 00:12:50.289 --> 00:12:52.250 were saying, hey, they're talking about moving 00:12:52.250 --> 00:12:57.120 to Buckhead. And it wasn't 30, 40 minutes and 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.820 fires were started and all hell was breaking 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:05.899 loose. Crazy stuff. It is. And you talk about, 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:08.500 again, the minority versus the majority. I think 00:13:08.500 --> 00:13:11.639 this is a problem, whether it's within our profession 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.539 or outside that we're talking about now, is I 00:13:14.539 --> 00:13:17.480 don't know how it happened, but the extremists 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.820 got the microphone. They got the narrative, they 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:23.259 got the social media algorithms. And I think 00:13:23.259 --> 00:13:25.879 that, you know, sadly there was, you know, somewhat 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:27.980 apathy. And when it came to the middle, even 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:29.779 let's just go to COVID for a second, you know, 00:13:29.779 --> 00:13:32.340 it was obviously a real virus. People were obviously 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:34.259 getting sick, but the truth was the healthier 00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:38.299 we try and make everyone, the better the outcome. 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.340 And that was demonized. Like, God forbid you 00:13:40.340 --> 00:13:43.240 talk about exercise and, you know, going to a 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.789 park and all that kind of stuff. it goes to show 00:13:47.789 --> 00:13:49.610 that you know the thing and i hope this is happening 00:13:49.610 --> 00:13:52.149 now i i really believe it is starting to be an 00:13:52.149 --> 00:13:55.570 awakening of that middle 80 that are realizing 00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:58.159 that they've been you know been duped for all 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:00.679 these years. But I mean, you saw the footage 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.379 over and over again of these instigators that 00:14:03.379 --> 00:14:05.240 were literally destroying what was supposed to 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:06.980 be their own communities, but it probably wasn't 00:14:06.980 --> 00:14:09.399 their own communities. And these poor shopkeepers 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:12.500 and homeowners are destroyed. But then you saw 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:15.100 that compassion of local residents after and 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:17.639 people from nowhere near there coming in with 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.080 brooms and shovels and cleaning everything up 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:22.299 for people. So I think that's what we've got 00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:24.820 to really reframe is that it is the minority 00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:27.490 that are causing all these problems. And it was 00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:30.110 after I had retired, but you probably saw it 00:14:30.110 --> 00:14:32.629 on the news where Atlanta was building the new 00:14:32.629 --> 00:14:35.990 public safety training center. And the same folks 00:14:35.990 --> 00:14:39.549 turned back out to protest that, you know, they 00:14:39.549 --> 00:14:41.590 were building, they called it Cop City. And it 00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:45.230 was really for fire and police and several other 00:14:45.230 --> 00:14:48.830 things. But it was a long, long overdue needed 00:14:48.830 --> 00:14:51.029 training center. I mean, we were both police 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:53.929 and fire were operating out of old, you know, 00:14:53.929 --> 00:14:58.419 1950s. Elementary schools still had the same, 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:02.580 you know, kiddie toilets and stuff in them. And 00:15:02.580 --> 00:15:06.600 there was a whole group that was, you know, living 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.200 in trees and chaining themselves to trees and 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:12.740 all that. And when they did start breaking the 00:15:12.740 --> 00:15:15.519 law and arresting them, I think out of everybody 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.059 arrested over a year and a half period, only 00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:21.860 one was actually from Georgia. And so that tells 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:24.649 you there's a money machine, you know. Somewhere. 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:26.789 But yeah, it's a, it's anything, you know, we 00:15:26.789 --> 00:15:29.970 go to extremes. We talk about it with fire tactics 00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:33.230 and stuff. And we, we joke all the time. It's 00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:36.009 like, man, I was like, it's so, so nice just 00:15:36.009 --> 00:15:39.230 to sort of live in the middle, you know? And 00:15:39.230 --> 00:15:42.429 sometimes we go too far, you know, either side 00:15:42.429 --> 00:15:46.970 of, of, of issues. We go too safe sometimes and 00:15:46.970 --> 00:15:49.529 won't let our people work. And we go too reckless 00:15:49.529 --> 00:15:52.289 sometimes. And, and we don't have control of. 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:54.899 of what our folks are doing. So you have to, 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.779 it's a constant struggle to sort of live in the 00:15:57.779 --> 00:15:59.659 middle and you're a hundred percent right. I 00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:07.100 think social media is a big part of, of fueling 00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:11.659 the extremes for sure. What about Danny Dwyer? 00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:14.700 I think that was after you and I spoke. So we 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:16.820 talk again about that middle ground. And I, I 00:16:16.820 --> 00:16:20.379 think talking to Danny, I use this example. If 00:16:20.379 --> 00:16:22.950 a police officer, kicks in a door and runs in 00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:25.309 a burning building with no SCBA or bunker gear, 00:16:25.389 --> 00:16:28.070 they get awards. If a firefighter does it, they 00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:30.490 get told that they're freelancing and they get 00:16:30.490 --> 00:16:33.529 disciplinary action. So what was your perspective 00:16:33.529 --> 00:16:37.149 on that? I was just, before we got on this podcast, 00:16:37.169 --> 00:16:40.090 editing a couple of videos from his civil service 00:16:40.090 --> 00:16:43.629 hearing for a presentation I'm doing next week. 00:16:44.149 --> 00:16:52.039 And yeah, it was crazy. It was insanity. Um, 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.980 you know, I'm, I'm very familiar with the whole 00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:57.940 three hour civil service hearing and I was familiar 00:16:57.940 --> 00:17:01.159 before the story, but you know, back to the way 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:03.759 you treat your folks is like that incident happened. 00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:07.319 Um, and that was during COVID too. So there was 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.460 no, uh, in -person civil service hearings. They 00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:12.839 were all online, which was awesome. Cause we 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:14.839 could all watch without even having to go down. 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:19.019 And, uh, you know, the fire department said he 00:17:19.019 --> 00:17:22.359 was freelancing. But the radio traffic and the 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.000 testimony, Captain Ware is the key to this whole 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.680 thing. And he's such a great guy. He was a captain 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.240 with me for a couple of years. I was Battalion 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.220 3. He was a captain at Station 15. And he was 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:38.400 the key witness in the whole civil service case. 00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:42.200 And, you know, the attorney for Dwyer went through 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.980 and asked him the questions. And he just kept 00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:48.420 repeating. Like he was confused at why he was 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:51.039 even being asked these questions because he was 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.359 the IC. He was the first officer on the scene. 00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:57.140 He was on the attack line. And Danny arrived 00:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.779 with an understaffed tiller truck. So he had 00:18:00.779 --> 00:18:03.259 two drivers and himself. So they were having 00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:05.599 to get the rest of their equipment on, their 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:09.400 air packs and all. And he ran up to the front 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:12.839 porch. He was ready to go. And the captain knew 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:17.420 there was entrapment. Got opened up and he said, 00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:21.619 come on over the radio. He said, come on, Lieutenant 00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:24.180 Dwyer, come on and go with Engine 22. We need 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:29.299 a quick primary search. And so basically he joined 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:33.880 Engine 22's crew. The fire department's position 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.740 was that he was separate from his crew, which 00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:41.720 he was, but he was not freelancing. Freelancing 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.750 would have been. He went around back and entered 00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:48.230 and didn't say anything to anybody and started 00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:51.009 some operation that wasn't coordinated, wasn't 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:54.930 announced. But he was definitely not freelancing. 00:18:55.029 --> 00:18:58.150 And he, you know, he ended up serving a two, 00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:00.750 I think it was a two day suspension. But Captain 00:19:00.750 --> 00:19:03.690 Ware told the truth at this hearing. He was the 00:19:03.690 --> 00:19:06.670 key to getting it overturned. The unfortunate 00:19:06.670 --> 00:19:09.410 part was the hearing didn't take place for two 00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:15.119 years. Atlanta and went to another fire department. 00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:19.900 And I use that as an example of integrity is 00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:22.819 that, you know, the department really wanted 00:19:22.819 --> 00:19:26.180 him to toe the line and the, uh, the city even 00:19:26.180 --> 00:19:29.000 asked him, you know, if you were in his position, 00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:33.099 would you do the same thing or would you do something 00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:34.759 different? And he goes, I would have done it 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:37.920 exactly the same way. And that blew the whole 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:43.750 case. Yeah. So. Yeah, it was a bad thing. But, 00:19:43.829 --> 00:19:47.130 you know, that one got a lot of publicity. Again, 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:49.549 that was, you know, got blew up on social media. 00:19:50.450 --> 00:19:54.750 But unfortunately, I travel and those stories 00:19:54.750 --> 00:19:58.029 are rampant all over the country. And it may 00:19:58.029 --> 00:19:59.910 not have been a rescue, but it was something 00:19:59.910 --> 00:20:05.730 just as bad as far as what the department did 00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:10.460 to somebody to, you know. you messed up a career 00:20:10.460 --> 00:20:14.579 you messed up the morale of uh a crew a department 00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:19.039 and uh it just it just does not make sense and 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:21.180 it's like where's the return to common sense 00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:25.000 when i worked at orange county we used to joke 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.579 you know if i get killed in a fire or i anything 00:20:27.579 --> 00:20:29.900 happens to me just throw a traffic vest on my 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:32.079 corpse so i don't get written up posthumously 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.359 because they're more concerned about that than 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.359 they were anything you actually did yeah and 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.380 and You know, you think about accountability. 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:45.299 I had this conversation with an old veteran of 00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:48.220 the fire service, and we were talking about seatbelt 00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:52.819 usage. And, you know, there was a recent incident 00:20:52.819 --> 00:20:58.900 where a firefighter was killed in an accident, 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.900 and it came out that he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. 00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:07.279 It looks like there might even be some some alcohol 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:15.380 related stuff to it. But you don't really hear 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:18.200 too much about that after the fact, you know, 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.000 and there's a behavior that you could really 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.940 correct that, you know, most everybody has a 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:25.759 policy to wear a seatbelt. But if you don't wear 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.420 it and something happens, then, you know, you 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:33.119 still get the same royal treatment. You know, 00:21:33.140 --> 00:21:36.039 it's a lot of duty death. And I guess the departments 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.039 are afraid to say anything because they're afraid 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:40.619 it'll affect their benefits or, or something. 00:21:40.700 --> 00:21:43.299 But there's like, there's selective accountability, 00:21:43.539 --> 00:21:47.240 um, on things. And that's what, that's what guys 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:51.579 hate is the inconsistency, you know? Well, talk 00:21:51.579 --> 00:21:53.259 about it all the time. If you're, if you're working 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:56.140 for a guy that's just a complete ass, at least, 00:21:56.140 --> 00:21:58.720 you know, he's an ass every day, you know, but 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:01.549 don't be nice to me one day. and try to gain 00:22:01.549 --> 00:22:03.809 my trust and then turn on me the next day after 00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:06.650 you after you get it that's that's what causes 00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:10.809 us to uh to have you know issues it's uh it's 00:22:10.809 --> 00:22:14.250 not the call so much as it's the uh it's the 00:22:14.250 --> 00:22:21.470 uh just daily inconsistency and and weak weak 00:22:21.470 --> 00:22:25.849 and selective leadership it's amazing listening 00:22:25.849 --> 00:22:28.630 to so many of these conversations and you know 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:31.109 a lot of times What happened to us before we 00:22:31.109 --> 00:22:33.490 put the uniform is a big part of, you know, whether 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:36.130 people struggle more or not. But then another 00:22:36.130 --> 00:22:38.670 big, you know, elephant in the room is organizational 00:22:38.670 --> 00:22:41.569 stress, organizational betrayal. And if you think 00:22:41.569 --> 00:22:44.210 about it tribally, you enter this group, you 00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:45.910 know, you got their badge on their chest and 00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:47.750 their patch on your shoulder. And, you know, 00:22:47.769 --> 00:22:50.490 you literally would die for these men and women. 00:22:50.529 --> 00:22:52.910 You know, God forbid it comes to that. And you 00:22:52.910 --> 00:22:54.549 do everything you're trained for and you hold 00:22:54.549 --> 00:22:56.430 yourself accountable and you, you know, stay 00:22:56.430 --> 00:22:59.579 in shape and you go to extra classes. And then 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:01.579 something like that happens. And it would be 00:23:01.579 --> 00:23:05.500 like, you know, a ancient tribe suddenly turning 00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:07.400 their back on you. And, you know, if you look 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.700 at that, you know, historically that meant death. 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:12.740 You know, if you were ostracized, you were probably 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:14.839 going to starve to death or get killed by another 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:17.839 tribe or a predator. And so we have that ingrained 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.500 in us. So you're going to ask us to be all in 00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:22.799 and give everything and make this ultimate sacrifice 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.640 for our loved ones and children to say goodbye 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.329 to us when we walk out the door. And then when 00:23:29.329 --> 00:23:31.289 we do exactly what we're supposed to do, you're 00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:32.950 then going to cut our legs from under us. And 00:23:32.950 --> 00:23:35.309 then you wonder why we have such a mental health 00:23:35.309 --> 00:23:38.890 crisis. This is a big part of it. Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:38.930 --> 00:23:41.950 And for a lot of people, you know, like you said, 00:23:41.970 --> 00:23:45.349 they come in with issues. It's not necessarily 00:23:45.349 --> 00:23:48.269 that the fire department causes all the issues. 00:23:49.829 --> 00:23:53.529 But the fire department's social structure could 00:23:53.529 --> 00:23:57.819 be the healing part of their... issues their 00:23:57.819 --> 00:24:01.180 coping mechanism their support network and um 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:05.259 you know you got some people say three some say 00:24:05.259 --> 00:24:07.380 more than that but like if you got three legs 00:24:07.380 --> 00:24:11.940 of the stool that keep you balanced um and you 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:16.119 know your work is one of those and if you if 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:19.700 you don't have that piece to rely on um and you're 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:22.059 already weak and then the family side or the 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:24.519 financial side or whatever then that could be 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:27.750 the straw that that breaks the camel's back when, 00:24:27.809 --> 00:24:32.170 uh, we're talking about that betrayal. Um, somebody 00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:34.549 asked me to describe at one time and I'm like, 00:24:34.589 --> 00:24:38.130 the only, it's so hard to describe, but there's 00:24:38.130 --> 00:24:41.150 a scene in the movie Braveheart, which is an 00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:43.250 older movie, but it's a, it's a great movie. 00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:48.170 It's Mel Gibson. And, uh, he's, he's fighting 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:51.130 for, uh, Scotland against the, against the, uh, 00:24:51.130 --> 00:24:56.579 English. And he has, pledged loyalty to the King 00:24:56.579 --> 00:25:01.480 of Scotland and he's fighting. And, uh, I mean, 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.539 it's just a gruesome, brutal, you know, hand 00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:07.259 to hand combat battle with swords and shields. 00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:11.039 And he, uh, he gets in a, in a one -on -one fight 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:15.859 with this guy and he knocks the guy's armored 00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:20.799 helmet off and he realizes it's the King of Scotland 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.430 who has totally betrayed him. And is fighting 00:25:24.430 --> 00:25:27.930 with the English to wipe him out because of some 00:25:27.930 --> 00:25:32.049 backdoor deal. And it destroys him. He collapses. 00:25:32.109 --> 00:25:35.349 And obviously he gets captured and eventually, 00:25:35.430 --> 00:25:39.049 you know, tortured to death. But that scene, 00:25:39.230 --> 00:25:41.890 if you watch that scene and the facial expressions 00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:46.029 and with the music and the tone that they set 00:25:46.029 --> 00:25:49.369 for that moment, that is what you feel like with 00:25:49.369 --> 00:25:52.519 organizational betrayal. I mean, it's it's. perfect 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.500 representation. Absolutely. Well, you have a 00:25:56.500 --> 00:26:00.559 near four decade perspective on the fire service 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:05.119 now. What was it like when you were a probie? 00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:07.900 Were we seeing these same kind of issues? And 00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:11.339 if not, what has changed over the last 40 years 00:26:11.339 --> 00:26:13.539 that we found ourselves where this seems to be, 00:26:13.579 --> 00:26:16.319 as you said, the same kind of theme, no matter 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.059 where you are in the country or even the world 00:26:18.059 --> 00:26:20.859 these days when it comes to our profession? Yeah, 00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:25.279 I'm sure there was always internal politics and 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.920 unfairness and, you know, the quote, good old 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.740 boy system in a lot of places. But I think your 00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:38.720 first five to seven years, I don't think you 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:42.440 notice it as much because you're just so excited 00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:47.299 to be doing what you're doing. And so you don't 00:26:47.299 --> 00:26:50.559 notice it. And it doesn't really matter as much 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:52.799 to you because as long as you can fight fire 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.660 and go on those calls, it's like it's not a big 00:26:56.660 --> 00:26:59.380 deal. As you get up, you know, five, seven years, 00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:01.359 then it's sort of time for you to be promoted. 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:05.880 So you may enter your first process. And, you 00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:07.799 know, in some departments, it's just appointments, 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.220 even for, you know, lower rank jobs. It's just 00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:14.079 whoever they want to occupy the spot. So you 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.799 start to notice it a little bit. They're still 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.930 not. destroying your morale or anything because 00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:22.829 it's not that big a deal but then i think you 00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:30.490 just um it's like uh sort of like a uh um slow 00:27:30.490 --> 00:27:34.390 building disease that like you know you uh i 00:27:34.390 --> 00:27:37.210 joke about you having a filter on your liver 00:27:37.210 --> 00:27:40.609 your liver filters your your your uh blood and 00:27:40.609 --> 00:27:43.390 toxins and everything and i always joke that 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:46.009 in public safety there's another little little 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:49.980 filter off and it's your BS filter and, and that 00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:52.859 that BS goes in there and it compacts and it, 00:27:52.859 --> 00:27:55.640 and it holds pretty good for about 20, 25 years. 00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.180 And then it gets full. And then when it gets 00:27:58.180 --> 00:28:01.819 full, it leaks and it leaks all in your system. 00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:03.779 And it kind of gives you a shitty outlook on 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:07.019 a lot of things. It goes straight to your optical 00:28:07.019 --> 00:28:11.019 nerve and, uh, and you start noticing, you start 00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:17.079 noticing everything. And, uh, um, So I don't 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.960 know. I do think that there was a shift in leadership 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:23.440 priorities because I think when I came in, we 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.980 were still led by the, you know, the Vietnam 00:28:26.980 --> 00:28:31.740 generation who had done combat and come into 00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:36.079 the fire service. And they still had that patriotism 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:41.799 and, you know, get in there and get it done attitude. 00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:45.970 And then I think there was. There was such an 00:28:45.970 --> 00:28:51.309 emphasis put on education, you know, 25, 30 years 00:28:51.309 --> 00:28:57.490 ago that it became the chic thing to do to promote 00:28:57.490 --> 00:29:00.269 the person with the most education. And it didn't 00:29:00.269 --> 00:29:04.109 matter if they had leadership skills or if they 00:29:04.109 --> 00:29:08.190 had tactical competency. It was just strictly 00:29:08.190 --> 00:29:11.890 a certificate was the only validation you needed. 00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:17.849 Again, human nature, when you see that happening. 00:29:19.470 --> 00:29:23.690 Instead of the the the troops on the ground spending 00:29:23.690 --> 00:29:27.670 time going to training and going to make themselves 00:29:27.670 --> 00:29:30.670 better and learn the job, they saw that the ticket 00:29:30.670 --> 00:29:35.369 to success was just education. And so they put 00:29:35.369 --> 00:29:39.210 all their effort into, you know, getting that 00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:42.049 piece of paper and getting that degree and they 00:29:42.049 --> 00:29:46.019 abandoned. the tactical side of the job um not 00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:49.680 totally but they didn't focus on it and and we 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.220 had a couple generations of that was sort of 00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:56.180 the path to a leadership position and i think 00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:58.380 it backfired you know i mean there needs again 00:29:58.380 --> 00:30:01.640 we shifted too far there was no middle ground 00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.799 there was no there was no okay well you need 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:07.880 some education but you need a lot of experience 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:12.539 to go with that it was just strictly that title 00:30:12.859 --> 00:30:14.740 you know it's like oh we got this one guy that 00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:16.940 has a master's degree we're going to make him 00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:20.619 the fire chief or her the fire chief and and 00:30:20.619 --> 00:30:24.799 um you know that's not the that's not the mark 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:28.839 of being able to assess knowledge skills and 00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.740 abilities that's that's a mark to say that you 00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:36.259 dedicated time and accomplished something but 00:30:36.259 --> 00:30:38.720 it's not the mark that you're going to be a good 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.609 leader and a successful manager uh of the fire 00:30:41.609 --> 00:30:45.990 department so we went we went too far to the 00:30:45.990 --> 00:30:49.690 manager side and left out the leadership side 00:30:49.690 --> 00:30:52.450 and and it wasn't just the fire department this 00:30:52.450 --> 00:30:56.849 happened everywhere so it was a societal uh societal 00:30:56.849 --> 00:31:00.329 issue but to me that's my theory over 40 years 00:31:00.329 --> 00:31:04.690 looking at it was that that made a huge difference 00:31:04.690 --> 00:31:10.859 in the the camaraderie the spree decor The emphasis 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:15.319 on, you know, fire tactics, everything became 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:20.279 risk averse. It's like we were so scared of somebody 00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:22.720 getting hurt and a piece of equipment getting 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:25.359 broke that we couldn't win. We were not allowed 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:28.400 to win and we were not allowed to make the rescue. 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:32.680 And and I tell you what, I really I saw I've 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.900 seen two. Very hard grassroots bottom up movements 00:31:36.900 --> 00:31:43.259 in those 40 years. One was RIT. I give Mike Lombardo 00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:47.619 credit for RIT is that Buffalo was having a ton 00:31:47.619 --> 00:31:50.359 of line of duty deaths. Their staffing had been 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:53.500 compromised and they were still sticking to the 00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:59.200 same tactics, which is typical. And he started, 00:31:59.299 --> 00:32:04.049 you know. Putting extra people in staging and 00:32:04.049 --> 00:32:07.069 they called them fast teams at first. And that 00:32:07.069 --> 00:32:09.990 took hold. But that was a bottom up movement. 00:32:10.069 --> 00:32:12.869 And then classes were developed and people started 00:32:12.869 --> 00:32:15.309 training on their own. And at one time it was 00:32:15.309 --> 00:32:18.430 like that was a specialty class at FDIC was, 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:21.710 you know, saving our own. And now like that's 00:32:21.710 --> 00:32:25.150 in recruit schools, like standard curriculum. 00:32:25.369 --> 00:32:28.670 It's in basic firefighter curriculum. And then 00:32:28.670 --> 00:32:32.299 we ended up with the two in, two out. And that 00:32:32.299 --> 00:32:34.740 even pushed it even further to make sure that 00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:39.259 you had writ in place. There were some problems 00:32:39.259 --> 00:32:40.880 that came along with that because we focused 00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:44.240 again too much on that. It's like if those two 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.019 people would pull the line that I wouldn't need 00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:50.799 to be rescued. So that was one. And then the 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.039 second one that I'm seeing and this one is like 00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:56.059 near and dear to my heart because it's like was 00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:59.910 part of my mission as. taken over at FDIC and 00:32:59.910 --> 00:33:04.670 fire engineering was search had become an afterthought 00:33:04.670 --> 00:33:09.369 after the fire was extinguished. And, and part 00:33:09.369 --> 00:33:13.690 of that was from the risk averse movement of, 00:33:13.730 --> 00:33:19.609 of 20 plus years ago. And, and now with things 00:33:19.609 --> 00:33:22.650 like the firefighter rescue survey is like, there 00:33:22.650 --> 00:33:26.990 are like, Guys on their own collecting data, 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:30.190 building this out of their own pocket. It's not 00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:33.450 a government funded deal. And they're giving 00:33:33.450 --> 00:33:35.970 us data that's showing how many people we're 00:33:35.970 --> 00:33:38.609 rescuing every day. It's like you would think 00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:41.509 that the fire department would brag about how 00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:45.410 many people we rescue a day. But like nobody 00:33:45.410 --> 00:33:48.509 knows. Nobody knows. So they're bringing attention 00:33:48.509 --> 00:33:51.049 to that and they're getting data. Like if you 00:33:51.049 --> 00:33:54.190 make a rescue in the first minute. of arrival, 00:33:54.509 --> 00:33:58.289 then, you know, there's a 70 plus percent chance 00:33:58.289 --> 00:34:01.269 of survival. And then every minute after that, 00:34:01.349 --> 00:34:04.930 those chances go down and it's showing, Hey, 00:34:05.029 --> 00:34:08.110 you know, just like a school shooting, they're 00:34:08.110 --> 00:34:11.010 teaching the police, like go in first guy, go 00:34:11.010 --> 00:34:13.829 in. Even if all you have is a handgun, like go 00:34:13.829 --> 00:34:16.909 in and disrupt the shooter, you know, let's roll. 00:34:17.090 --> 00:34:21.349 Um, I use the example on searches like, and it 00:34:21.349 --> 00:34:26.070 ties back into Danny's story. Any fire department 00:34:26.070 --> 00:34:30.010 in anywhere USA pulls up and there's a kid floating 00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:34.349 face down at the bottom of a swimming pool is 00:34:34.349 --> 00:34:37.170 going to expect that their firefighter jumps 00:34:37.170 --> 00:34:41.250 in, swims to the bottom, and comes back up with 00:34:41.250 --> 00:34:45.489 that kid. They don't have to be water rescue 00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:48.269 certified. They don't have to have water rescue 00:34:48.269 --> 00:34:50.670 equipment. They don't have to have anything. 00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:53.469 They're just expected to do it. And there's no... 00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:57.239 No more IDLH environment than being underwater. 00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:02.820 I mean, you can't breathe. And we've got a firefighter 00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:06.800 with a year's worth of recruit training, $30 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:09.940 ,000, $40 ,000 worth of gear, a $2 million apparatus, 00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.400 and they're afraid to let somebody go in and 00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:17.539 save a life in a smoke -filled house. It just 00:35:17.539 --> 00:35:22.360 does not make sense. And so I'm very proud that 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.199 that is back in the forefront and there's more 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:27.519 people talking about search and how important 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:29.860 and that's getting back to the mission that we're 00:35:29.860 --> 00:35:32.920 there to save lives. You know, that's why we 00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:40.039 go. Property is saved secondary to lives. And 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:43.840 those are the two biggest groundswell movements 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.019 that I've seen over 40 years. And they didn't 00:35:47.019 --> 00:35:50.360 come down from the top from policy. It came from 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:54.099 the bottom up. What was interesting working for 00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:57.139 four departments, East Coast and West Coast, 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:01.500 excuse me, was I started off trained in Florida. 00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:06.079 So again, good engine operations training, very 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.500 poor truck company operations training, good 00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:12.480 EMS training. And then I go get hired in Anaheim, 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:15.909 California. And they're, you know, sticking ladders 00:36:15.909 --> 00:36:18.329 and we're doing all kinds of roof ops and building 00:36:18.329 --> 00:36:21.329 construction. And I'm scrambling to try and keep 00:36:21.329 --> 00:36:23.070 up with these guys that were trained in California. 00:36:23.949 --> 00:36:26.130 And, you know, so then I get to see this great 00:36:26.130 --> 00:36:28.409 combination between vertical ventilation and, 00:36:28.449 --> 00:36:30.929 you know, aggressive interior operations. And 00:36:30.929 --> 00:36:34.050 then I come back to Florida after I have a little 00:36:34.050 --> 00:36:37.289 boy. And this is Orange County again. And I was 00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:39.090 told, oh, we don't put anyone on the roof here. 00:36:39.550 --> 00:36:41.250 because we have lightweight construction. And 00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:42.789 I'm like, well, the whole building is lightweight 00:36:42.789 --> 00:36:45.110 construction where I just came from. And you're 00:36:45.110 --> 00:36:46.809 telling me that you won't put anyone on a roof, 00:36:46.829 --> 00:36:48.469 but you'll put a bunch of people under a roof. 00:36:48.869 --> 00:36:51.070 And that was kind of the time in my career. So 00:36:51.070 --> 00:36:53.690 we're talking about five years on where I started 00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:56.909 seeing that there were just fallacies that we 00:36:56.909 --> 00:36:59.030 were taught at the academy level, like the way 00:36:59.030 --> 00:37:00.630 that we were taught how to throw a ladder in 00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:03.250 the Florida Fire Academies. You lay it flat and 00:37:03.250 --> 00:37:05.789 then you walk it up and you stand to the side 00:37:05.789 --> 00:37:07.289 and oh no, you've got to turn it around this 00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:09.460 way. You can't climb it the other way. And all 00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:10.940 these things. And then you go out west and they 00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:12.619 just stick it up, tie it off and get up there. 00:37:13.099 --> 00:37:15.659 And then it made a lot more sense. And then again, 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.639 you watch a vertical ventilation on a building 00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:20.719 that requires it. And then you get the hell off 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:23.280 the roof. And then you're at interior one day 00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:26.179 and you see all the smoke and heat disappear. 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:27.760 And you're like, oh, wow, I can walk over, put 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:29.820 the fire out. And if there is someone there, 00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:32.460 we can stand up and drag them out. You look at 00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:34.559 vehicle fires and we were putting water on them. 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:36.519 And you realize, oh, wait a second, the car is 00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.219 all class B. So why are we chasing it with an 00:37:39.219 --> 00:37:42.219 entire tank of water when, you know, we laugh 00:37:42.219 --> 00:37:45.280 at the big tarp that the Europeans have tried. 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.360 But I mean, ultimately, that's it. You just smother 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.260 it and walk away. So what I realized is that 00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:54.780 there is also a huge lack of communication. And 00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:57.599 I started seeing how siloed the American fire 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:00.480 service war was. And you have city and county. 00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:02.440 Oh, they don't like each other. Wait a second. 00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:04.920 There's two groups of grownups that are doing 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:07.500 the same job and they air quotes don't play well 00:38:07.500 --> 00:38:10.000 together. Again, going back to mismanagement, 00:38:10.059 --> 00:38:12.739 how the hell did that happen? So you now are 00:38:12.739 --> 00:38:14.679 obviously in this national position with FDIC. 00:38:15.219 --> 00:38:18.380 How do we tear down the walls of the silos and 00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:21.900 allow the best ideas to rise to the top and start 00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:24.059 debunking some of these myths that some of these 00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:28.400 fire departments still believe to this day? Yeah, 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:32.500 hear it all the time. Egos eat brain cells. And 00:38:32.500 --> 00:38:41.099 I do see a lot of a lot more regional and state 00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:44.460 cooperation than than there was when I first 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:47.559 got in the in the fire service. There's a lot 00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.260 more standard training. Fires are still local. 00:38:51.380 --> 00:38:53.639 There's still local building construction issues. 00:38:55.239 --> 00:38:59.179 You know, like, for instance, the the West Coast 00:38:59.179 --> 00:39:04.099 had tons of. Wood commercial roofs, flat wood 00:39:04.099 --> 00:39:06.880 commercial roofs, and they were big on chainsaws 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:11.599 and West Coast was more on rotary saws and stuff. 00:39:11.699 --> 00:39:14.980 And all of that is fine because you need the 00:39:14.980 --> 00:39:20.599 right tactic for the construction you have. FDNY 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.480 didn't do a whole lot of residential roof ventilation. 00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:27.380 They do commercial roof ventilation, but, you 00:39:27.380 --> 00:39:29.869 know. If you just look at that on the surface, 00:39:30.010 --> 00:39:31.670 you're like, well, why not? Well, then you look 00:39:31.670 --> 00:39:35.110 and you're like, well, it's a northern state. 00:39:35.170 --> 00:39:38.230 The roofs are built to repel snow. So there are 00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:42.670 12 -12 roof pitches. And it's a little more difficult 00:39:42.670 --> 00:39:48.690 on a 12 -12 than it is on a very low angle roof 00:39:48.690 --> 00:39:50.530 that we would have here in the south or you would 00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:55.389 have in like the southwest. So tactics still 00:39:55.389 --> 00:39:59.639 need to be local. The key is not hitting the 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.639 easy button and just putting out blanket policies 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.480 like we don't get on the roof. Teach the people 00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:11.179 fire behavior, building construction, fire dynamics, 00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:15.119 and allow them to use the appropriate tactic 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:17.960 for the situation that they encounter on that 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:23.960 fire. You could have. Two structures that are 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.480 identical except for the roof pitch, and that 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:28.800 may be the deciding factor in whether you're 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:32.719 cutting or not. You know, but let them make those 00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.840 decisions on the scene. And I think, again, the 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:43.639 Chesty Puller was the most decorated Marine Corps, 00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:52.519 Marine in history. All right. And when he retired, 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:57.699 he was asked, you know, what do you think is 00:40:57.699 --> 00:41:00.079 happening to the Marine Corps? I want to say 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.360 he was in some ungodly amount of years, you know, 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:06.119 like 50 years or something. He's like, what do 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:08.280 you see? What do you know? What are your what 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:11.079 are your fears for the Marine Corps? And he said, 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:15.340 I fear we are becoming overeducated and under 00:41:15.340 --> 00:41:21.840 experienced. And. I think there's a lot of truth 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.900 in that. So there's a lot of people that have 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:30.880 been exposed to information, whether it's a study 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:35.980 or a training class or whatever, but they haven't 00:41:35.980 --> 00:41:40.429 had the opportunity. To experience the results 00:41:40.429 --> 00:41:43.849 of implementing those things on the scene, especially 00:41:43.849 --> 00:41:46.289 over and over. If you're having one fire a year, 00:41:46.369 --> 00:41:49.070 two fires a year, that's not enough for you to 00:41:49.070 --> 00:41:52.070 see patterns and habits. That's like you're, 00:41:52.070 --> 00:41:55.570 you know, it's a new day every day. You know, 00:41:55.570 --> 00:41:57.789 it's a new lesson learned. But if you're going 00:41:57.789 --> 00:42:02.449 to multiple, multiple incidents and, you know, 00:42:02.469 --> 00:42:07.090 you cut a hole in a roof and you see that. You 00:42:07.090 --> 00:42:09.409 didn't have a line in place and you saw that 00:42:09.409 --> 00:42:11.750 the fire grew bigger because you introduced more 00:42:11.750 --> 00:42:14.670 air. Then you start to learn. You're like, OK, 00:42:14.730 --> 00:42:16.969 well, it's not that the hole's bad. It's that 00:42:16.969 --> 00:42:20.710 it was opened at the wrong time. And so you start 00:42:20.710 --> 00:42:23.289 to make those adjustments and you start to learn. 00:42:23.630 --> 00:42:25.750 But you have to know building construction. You 00:42:25.750 --> 00:42:28.010 have to know fire behavior, fire dynamics. And 00:42:28.010 --> 00:42:30.789 if you don't know those, then you can't be good 00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:34.409 at tactics. And so that's where the focus needs 00:42:34.409 --> 00:42:38.150 to be is on. Giving them the education so that 00:42:38.150 --> 00:42:41.110 they know the dynamics and the fire behavior 00:42:41.110 --> 00:42:43.389 and the building construction. But then you've 00:42:43.389 --> 00:42:46.570 got to give them the experience, too. And if 00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:49.150 they don't get that from regular call volume, 00:42:49.289 --> 00:42:51.210 then they have to have live fire training and 00:42:51.210 --> 00:42:54.610 they have to have lots of it, not just once a 00:42:54.610 --> 00:42:58.570 year. And my push is that it needs to be in acquired 00:42:58.570 --> 00:43:01.469 structures. And that's very difficult. But at 00:43:01.469 --> 00:43:05.019 a minimum. It needs to be in training locations 00:43:05.019 --> 00:43:09.579 that are using materials that can mimic the actual 00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:14.099 conditions, not just two pallets up against the 00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:17.440 wall in a concrete building that takes five gallons 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:21.500 of water to suppress. You know, you got to restrict 00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:25.880 flow. You got to create some more theatrics and 00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:28.719 make the fires look like they're going to look 00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:30.559 like and make the smoke look like it's going 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:33.519 to look like. you know, out in the field and 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:37.719 you need to do that, you know, year round. So, 00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:39.960 and that's tough, that's tough to do. I'm not 00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:44.480 saying it's easy at all, but, but when you look 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:48.480 at some of the things we prioritize that we in 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.500 budget for and do, if we would just get back 00:43:51.500 --> 00:43:57.469 to those basics of like being able to do. Fire 00:43:57.469 --> 00:44:00.170 extinguishment, search, rescue, extrication. 00:44:00.429 --> 00:44:03.610 And if you're into the medical stuff, then you're 00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:07.809 medical. If you just focus on that, then that's 00:44:07.809 --> 00:44:10.230 the only thing worth spending your time on. All 00:44:10.230 --> 00:44:14.449 the rest of it's fluff. Yeah, I agree. When I 00:44:14.449 --> 00:44:17.030 was in Anaheim, again, this really sharp learning 00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:19.769 curve at the beginning. By the end of the probationary 00:44:19.769 --> 00:44:22.369 year, we'd done so much training. And exactly 00:44:22.369 --> 00:44:24.429 like you're talking about, you were taught, you 00:44:24.429 --> 00:44:26.349 know, panelized roof. Then, you know, there's 00:44:26.349 --> 00:44:28.909 an orchestrated way to cut it and you get off. 00:44:28.989 --> 00:44:30.989 And, you know, the bowstring roof, you're not 00:44:30.989 --> 00:44:33.090 going to be walking on. And, you know, you look 00:44:33.090 --> 00:44:34.849 at a structure, okay, that's already self -vented. 00:44:34.849 --> 00:44:36.150 We're not even going to get up there in the first 00:44:36.150 --> 00:44:38.550 place. But that's education. That's reps. And 00:44:38.550 --> 00:44:42.389 they did acquire structures. I remember one training 00:44:42.389 --> 00:44:45.250 in an acquired apartment complex, wood frame 00:44:45.250 --> 00:44:47.719 apartment complex, and they cut. you know, pre 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:51.320 pre -cut vent holes. And we're a little overly 00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.360 aggressive where we almost called a full second 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:55.880 alarm to this training. And I got to experience 00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:58.139 what a real spongy roof is, you know, firsthand, 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:00.659 but that that's it. You, you remember those. 00:45:00.699 --> 00:45:03.000 I remember when it was a cold, cold day and we 00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:05.019 did tick training, really excellent tick training 00:45:05.019 --> 00:45:07.119 and going from that cold outside to the cold 00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:10.659 interior, the tick shut down. They couldn't handle 00:45:10.659 --> 00:45:14.110 that, that change. All these little lessons that, 00:45:14.150 --> 00:45:16.530 as you said, you know, host management, Hialeah 00:45:16.530 --> 00:45:19.190 did a great job in their, their tower of having 00:45:19.190 --> 00:45:22.550 all this metal furniture. So you're not just 00:45:22.550 --> 00:45:24.489 going straight to the fire. You're having to 00:45:24.489 --> 00:45:26.730 mitigate all this, you know, these couches and 00:45:26.730 --> 00:45:29.730 tables, and then there's interior stairwells. 00:45:29.730 --> 00:45:32.159 And so now you realize, oh. you need to actually 00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:33.800 manage these corners. You need to, you know, 00:45:33.820 --> 00:45:36.039 be able to get the hose to the person. You don't 00:45:36.039 --> 00:45:38.440 get that in a, in a bear, you know, training 00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:40.639 tower, as you said, with, with a bale of hay 00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:43.400 in the corner. So the realism in training, and 00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.739 I think also a thing that's missing so many times 00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:49.179 is that fitness component. You know, what is, 00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:52.260 what is the exertion before you begin this operation? 00:45:52.539 --> 00:45:54.059 Everything's set up, you know, you're taking 00:45:54.059 --> 00:45:56.380 it in turns. So what have you done to replicate? 00:45:56.940 --> 00:45:59.820 climbing 10 stories or dragging you know five 00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:02.380 inch to a hydrant first before you you make entry 00:46:02.380 --> 00:46:04.900 because that's a big big part you don't begin 00:46:04.900 --> 00:46:10.940 a fire fresh and calm right yep still a lot to 00:46:10.940 --> 00:46:13.639 do and some some places are doing doing well 00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:18.539 with it um but you know there's just a lot of 00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:21.139 distractions a lot of distractions and a lot 00:46:21.139 --> 00:46:24.760 of required stuff that's really not um relevant 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:29.449 to being able to accomplish the core mission 00:46:29.449 --> 00:46:33.190 of the job. And, you know, it's said about every 00:46:33.190 --> 00:46:36.269 20 or 30 years, return to the basics, you know, 00:46:36.269 --> 00:46:39.650 return to the basics. And what you find too is, 00:46:39.670 --> 00:46:42.070 you know, kind of back to the mental health angle 00:46:42.070 --> 00:46:47.150 is that the more active you are, the more a lot 00:46:47.150 --> 00:46:51.369 of other problems go away. You know, if you're... 00:46:51.739 --> 00:46:54.260 If you're spending time doing things that really 00:46:54.260 --> 00:46:56.159 don't matter, that's when everybody's really 00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:59.000 complaining. Or if you're not doing anything 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:03.599 at all. I always say like the slower, the slower 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:06.280 companies are always late on all their hydrants 00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:09.179 and building inspections and everything. And 00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:11.760 the companies that are running 15, 20, 30 calls 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:15.659 a day always have everything in on time. You 00:47:15.659 --> 00:47:17.820 know, it's like you got to get that movement. 00:47:17.900 --> 00:47:21.489 You got to. create that momentum and and keep 00:47:21.489 --> 00:47:24.789 people engaged if not you know you you just sort 00:47:24.789 --> 00:47:28.250 of die on the vine you know i never saw shift 00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:33.650 or shift wars at busy stations not many every 00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:35.429 now and then you have a little personality conflict 00:47:35.429 --> 00:47:38.349 between a couple people but uh they they'll go 00:47:38.349 --> 00:47:42.269 out and duke it out and then it's over yeah when 00:47:42.269 --> 00:47:45.710 i went and did uh my exercise physiology degree 00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:48.820 when I came out the other end and actually spanned 00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:50.719 two universities, the University of North London 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:56.179 and UF here in Florida. And really what it really 00:47:56.179 --> 00:47:59.059 prepared me to do was to be in a lab in a university 00:47:59.059 --> 00:48:02.639 as a sports scientist. It didn't give me the 00:48:02.639 --> 00:48:05.019 skills to really then go out and coach. There 00:48:05.019 --> 00:48:07.280 was one semester in UF that did a great job. 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:09.059 It prepared you for a thing called the CSCS. 00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:11.719 But apart from that, everything else was super 00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:16.469 academic. What's interesting is now, let me see, 00:48:16.550 --> 00:48:20.010 the Washington Post, I think it was, did an article 00:48:20.010 --> 00:48:23.969 recently how Gen Z are leaning into the trades 00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:26.829 because for the same reason that when they Google 00:48:26.829 --> 00:48:28.829 what's it like to be a firefighter and all the 00:48:28.829 --> 00:48:30.949 beautiful stuff that we're discussing now comes 00:48:30.949 --> 00:48:33.909 up, but so does divorce, alcoholism, cancer, 00:48:34.130 --> 00:48:36.489 testosterone depletion, et cetera, et cetera, 00:48:36.510 --> 00:48:40.000 mandatory overtime. And so when they're Googling 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.739 university, they're like, well, you know, like 00:48:41.739 --> 00:48:44.039 my degree was tens of thousands of dollars for 00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:45.539 a piece of paper that doesn't guarantee you a 00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:47.719 job. And they're going, well, that doesn't sound 00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:51.360 very good. This is what I'm seeing, you know, 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:52.920 when it comes to what you were talking about 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:56.380 a minute ago with this need for education, for 00:48:56.380 --> 00:48:58.679 leadership in the fire services, you're going 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:01.039 to school, you're studying these myopic slices 00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:04.619 of, you know, academia. And then you're going 00:49:04.619 --> 00:49:06.960 out into the real world and having to manage 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:09.719 people and scenes. And I don't think those two 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:13.960 line up at all. No, no, they definitely can complement 00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:16.400 each other because it's always say it's the, 00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:19.699 you know, the education will give you the why 00:49:19.699 --> 00:49:23.659 and the training will give you the how. And then 00:49:23.659 --> 00:49:26.880 the experience of actually putting it together 00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:32.539 is that magical piece that creates the actual. 00:49:33.289 --> 00:49:38.469 result and uh and you know the thing is too is 00:49:38.469 --> 00:49:42.750 uh education is easier than it ever has been 00:49:42.750 --> 00:49:48.829 because um i forget the stats but like you know 00:49:48.829 --> 00:49:52.469 you used you used to have to go to the library 00:49:52.469 --> 00:49:57.710 to get a book you had to enroll in college to 00:49:57.710 --> 00:50:01.469 get certain types of classes and knowledge now 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:06.119 I mean, there is nothing other than the schedule 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:09.460 and all, but there's nothing you don't have access 00:50:09.460 --> 00:50:15.599 to anymore. If you want to learn something and 00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:19.179 you're self -motivated, I mean, that information 00:50:19.179 --> 00:50:22.940 is out there. And not only is it out there in 00:50:22.940 --> 00:50:27.699 the written word, there's videos of how to, you 00:50:27.699 --> 00:50:31.610 know, you can have. Um, some of the experts in 00:50:31.610 --> 00:50:34.190 the world on a certain subject, you know, that 00:50:34.190 --> 00:50:37.469 do YouTube shorts and tell you, you know, this 00:50:37.469 --> 00:50:40.409 is, this is this there's person, there's leadership 00:50:40.409 --> 00:50:44.150 coaches. Um, you know, if you want to, if you 00:50:44.150 --> 00:50:49.289 want to learn how to, uh, um, raise art, I mean, 00:50:49.309 --> 00:50:53.150 you, you can learn all that stuff on your own 00:50:53.150 --> 00:50:55.909 now way more than you ever could. And what did 00:50:55.909 --> 00:50:59.699 they say? Something like, uh, a, uh, Five to 00:50:59.699 --> 00:51:04.340 six year old kid is exposed to more information 00:51:04.340 --> 00:51:10.780 than, you know, a 70 year old 50 years ago. And 00:51:10.780 --> 00:51:13.900 so it's it's out there and it's it's changing. 00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:16.880 It's changing the dynamics and importance and 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:21.340 of of having to to spend that money and go that 00:51:21.340 --> 00:51:26.760 formal route of education. So it's like. There's 00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:29.539 still the societal issue that it's like, if you 00:51:29.539 --> 00:51:33.579 go out and learn all that on your own, then the 00:51:33.579 --> 00:51:36.019 society wants to say, well, that doesn't count. 00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:43.099 And that's why I'm such a proponent of knowledge 00:51:43.099 --> 00:51:46.440 skills and ability tests for promotions. It's 00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:49.599 like, what do you actually have to do to be a 00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:52.420 lieutenant? In a fire department, like what what 00:51:52.420 --> 00:51:55.199 decisions do you have to make and what situations 00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:58.519 do you face? And do you have the skills to do 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:02.760 that? Because there's no certification or degree 00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:06.199 that tells you that you that you're going to 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:09.400 be good at it. The way to assess it is to actually 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:13.920 have an assessment that makes you do it. Makes 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:16.380 you command a fire, makes you deal with a personnel 00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:19.559 problem, makes you teach a training class, makes 00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:26.159 you. Do a presentation on short notice. That 00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:29.440 gets into your knowledge, skills, and ability 00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:32.360 and ability to function. There's no written test 00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:35.739 that'll do it. And there's no interview that 00:52:35.739 --> 00:52:40.199 will produce that. And it's expensive to do processes 00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:42.500 like that, but they're out there and they're 00:52:42.500 --> 00:52:49.219 very successful. It's been amazing yet disappointing. 00:52:50.690 --> 00:52:53.289 unpacking a lot of the issues that I'm trying 00:52:53.289 --> 00:52:55.969 to you know bring solutions to and I say me I 00:52:55.969 --> 00:52:57.929 don't have the solution I'm finding the world's 00:52:57.929 --> 00:53:01.449 experts and lived experiences and layering you 00:53:01.449 --> 00:53:05.030 know almost like a case for example you know 00:53:05.030 --> 00:53:07.309 for the 42 hour work week when it comes to performance 00:53:07.309 --> 00:53:09.389 and longevity and relationships and all the things 00:53:10.170 --> 00:53:12.849 But what's become glaring is also that there 00:53:12.849 --> 00:53:15.909 are certainly people that are at the helm of 00:53:15.909 --> 00:53:19.730 unions, of chief positions, city managers, et 00:53:19.730 --> 00:53:23.070 cetera, where there is outright cowardice, where 00:53:23.070 --> 00:53:25.190 their men and women are literally being buried 00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:29.650 yearly, and yet they do nothing to change anything. 00:53:30.250 --> 00:53:34.789 So if you were king for a day, how do we change 00:53:34.789 --> 00:53:39.280 this crisis of leadership? to put moral courage 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:41.840 back into a very morally courageous profession 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:45.000 so that we can have that synergy between, as 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.000 you said, the educational piece, but also the 00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:50.659 right human beings that will truly advocate for 00:53:50.659 --> 00:53:58.800 their people again. That's tough. King for a 00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:05.619 day can force things to happen, but that doesn't 00:54:05.619 --> 00:54:09.070 mean they're going to last. And that's a pretty 00:54:09.070 --> 00:54:14.489 deep way to look at it. But yeah, if you were 00:54:14.489 --> 00:54:19.030 king for a day, then you would put in place the 00:54:19.030 --> 00:54:23.530 leaders that had that mentality, that background, 00:54:23.809 --> 00:54:27.329 that knowledge, and they would make good decisions 00:54:27.329 --> 00:54:32.650 to make those changes that are necessary. That's 00:54:32.650 --> 00:54:37.000 utopia, obviously. And I had this discussion 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:40.800 on another podcast with a lady who had lost her 00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:44.840 son who died by suicide. He was a police officer. 00:54:45.579 --> 00:54:48.480 And she was on a mission to make sure it doesn't 00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:50.679 happen to anybody else. And she had that same 00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:56.239 type of questions like, what do we do? And nothing 00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:00.539 happens on our timeline. I learned that a long 00:55:00.539 --> 00:55:06.860 time ago. We want it to be solved today. There's 00:55:06.860 --> 00:55:10.840 no magic wand. There's no silver bullet to make 00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:14.840 all the issues go away. And I said, what you 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:18.679 do is you keep doing what you're doing is you 00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:23.619 play the long game and you educate the people 00:55:23.619 --> 00:55:29.340 that will listen. And you hope that those people 00:55:29.340 --> 00:55:35.210 promote and move up in their organizations. And 00:55:35.210 --> 00:55:38.530 you have to look at these changes as like 30 00:55:38.530 --> 00:55:42.909 -year changes. Gosh, we want it to happen today. 00:55:43.230 --> 00:55:47.469 We want it to happen right now. But it's impossible 00:55:47.469 --> 00:55:53.369 to turn a battleship around at the same rate 00:55:53.369 --> 00:55:56.969 that you can turn a speedboat around. And the 00:55:56.969 --> 00:56:01.710 problem's massive. And so it's one department 00:56:01.710 --> 00:56:11.050 at a time. It's one department implementing mental 00:56:11.050 --> 00:56:19.849 health policies and schedule changes one state 00:56:19.849 --> 00:56:26.949 at a time, implementing benefits for presumptive 00:56:26.949 --> 00:56:31.030 cancer or reproductive health issues for female 00:56:31.030 --> 00:56:37.250 firefighters. But there's no light switch that's 00:56:37.250 --> 00:56:40.150 going to fix it all at one time. And so the frustrating 00:56:40.150 --> 00:56:43.869 part is if you're on the beginning end of that 00:56:43.869 --> 00:56:48.730 push is that progress doesn't seem too fast. 00:56:48.909 --> 00:56:52.630 But always compare it to, and I heard this years 00:56:52.630 --> 00:56:58.210 ago, are you familiar with the English ivy plant? 00:56:58.550 --> 00:57:00.489 I am. I have one in my bathroom. It's really 00:57:00.489 --> 00:57:02.860 good at taking up the poo apparently. All right. 00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:06.820 So English, English Ivy is a beautiful, beautiful 00:57:06.820 --> 00:57:11.500 ground cover. When I bought my first house, I 00:57:11.500 --> 00:57:13.559 was like, Oh, I want this Ivy. I'd seen it in 00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:15.699 these other landscapes. I want this Ivy going 00:57:15.699 --> 00:57:17.920 across the ground. Yeah. You got to keep it out 00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:19.840 of the trees and all that, but it's just beautiful 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.340 on the ground. So I planted it and nothing happened. 00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.940 You know, these, these plants didn't do anything. 00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:28.179 They're just there. And so I was talking to an 00:57:28.179 --> 00:57:29.920 old timer and he's like, yeah, you know, the 00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:32.730 saying with the Ivy. The first couple years, 00:57:32.949 --> 00:57:37.030 it sleeps. And then for a couple years, it creeps. 00:57:37.769 --> 00:57:40.130 And then the next thing you know, that shit is 00:57:40.130 --> 00:57:42.690 in your trees and taking over your house because 00:57:42.690 --> 00:57:47.690 it leaps. And that's the same with change. I 00:57:47.690 --> 00:57:50.769 don't know who Brunicini probably got it from, 00:57:50.869 --> 00:57:53.969 but his famous quote was, firefighters hate two 00:57:53.969 --> 00:57:57.630 things, change and the way things are. And it's 00:57:57.630 --> 00:58:03.329 so true. In 1985, when I started at the Conyers 00:58:03.329 --> 00:58:05.130 Fire Department, guess what shift we worked? 00:58:06.710 --> 00:58:14.389 2472. Oh, really? Yes. I'm all ears. Yes. 2472. 00:58:15.550 --> 00:58:18.630 We worked it in the county department, worked 00:58:18.630 --> 00:58:26.210 it, and we fought to go to 2448. You know why? 00:58:26.889 --> 00:58:31.789 Money. We all got raises because we worked more 00:58:31.789 --> 00:58:34.289 hours. And, you know, the old government trick, 00:58:34.369 --> 00:58:37.469 you're an hourly employee, but you're a salary 00:58:37.469 --> 00:58:41.849 employee at the same time. And that way, you 00:58:41.849 --> 00:58:45.050 know, you get around some laws. But, yeah, we 00:58:45.050 --> 00:58:48.289 were working that schedule, 42 -hour work week 00:58:48.289 --> 00:58:56.150 in 1985, 86, and we changed in 88. And then we 00:58:56.150 --> 00:58:58.989 consolidated with the county in 90 and went back 00:58:58.989 --> 00:59:09.409 to the 24 -72. And as a young five -year firefighter, 00:59:09.409 --> 00:59:12.789 I hated it because I wanted to be on duty 24 00:59:12.789 --> 00:59:17.449 hours a day, every day. As I got older, we joked 00:59:17.449 --> 00:59:19.550 about it all the time. Me and a friend of mine, 00:59:19.570 --> 00:59:22.150 we'd be like, man, wouldn't 24 -72 be so freaking 00:59:22.150 --> 00:59:28.579 nice now? I mean, it's 42 hours. My fear with 00:59:28.579 --> 00:59:33.480 it is that, and I'm 100 % in favor of it. My 00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:38.559 fear is, and it could be because of my generation 00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:43.480 and my experience, my generation would take 24 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:47.079 -72 and see it as an opportunity to work for 00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:50.099 two fire departments and make even more money. 00:59:50.820 --> 00:59:55.329 So now I can work 48 -48. And I still got a couple 00:59:55.329 --> 00:59:57.489 of days off and I cut grass on the side of that. 00:59:58.889 --> 01:00:02.750 I don't know that that's as big a deal with the 01:00:02.750 --> 01:00:06.969 with the newer generation because they're they're 01:00:06.969 --> 01:00:11.409 they're not the hustlers. The, you know, just 01:00:11.409 --> 01:00:14.670 work, work, work, work, work. They they want 01:00:14.670 --> 01:00:18.150 the time off and and stuff. So so that'll be 01:00:18.150 --> 01:00:20.670 interesting to see. And I've seen that in some. 01:00:21.260 --> 01:00:24.139 in some surveys that the younger generation, 01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:27.960 they're already not working the part -time jobs 01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:33.380 like we did in our generation. And somebody asked 01:00:33.380 --> 01:00:35.699 me, like, what's your advice to a new firefighter? 01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:40.219 I'm like, don't get a second job in the same 01:00:40.219 --> 01:00:44.400 profession. I won't tell you not to get a second 01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.619 job because I actually think work is healthy 01:00:46.619 --> 01:00:51.210 for you, that you need to work. But work at a 01:00:51.210 --> 01:00:55.190 fire department and then work cutting grass or 01:00:55.190 --> 01:00:58.190 working at Home Depot or having a business or 01:00:58.190 --> 01:01:01.409 doing consulting or whatever. But don't work 01:01:01.409 --> 01:01:04.309 24 hours at the fire department and then go work 01:01:04.309 --> 01:01:08.190 12 or 24 hours on an ambulance. Or don't go to 01:01:08.190 --> 01:01:10.909 work at another fire department and work 48, 01:01:11.070 --> 01:01:17.650 24 or 48, 48. And I say that, you know, you've 01:01:17.650 --> 01:01:20.739 got so many. You've got so many hours of being 01:01:20.739 --> 01:01:23.320 on duty in you and so many calls. Do you want 01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:25.239 to get them all in in 10 years or do you want 01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:28.400 to spread them out over 30? Because you're going 01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:34.780 to burn out. And you see it. A lot of people 01:01:34.780 --> 01:01:37.679 can handle it for a few years, but it catches 01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:41.000 up to them. It catches up to them. And I know 01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:45.480 a bunch of folks that work for two departments 01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:49.320 or they work for an EMS. and a fire department 01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:52.539 might be private sometimes it's even not emergency 01:01:52.539 --> 01:01:55.800 transport stuff but it's like get out of that 01:01:55.800 --> 01:01:58.920 do something different because it's uh it'll 01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:02.260 it'll clear your mind it's funny because that 01:02:02.260 --> 01:02:04.579 conversation has come up and i had this you know 01:02:04.579 --> 01:02:06.480 it was kind of out of arrogance when i heard 01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:09.039 it early on because i've been you know as as 01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:12.300 this my understanding has evolved that became 01:02:12.300 --> 01:02:14.280 clearer and clearer to be the solution and then 01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:16.460 when you realize that the entire northeast works 01:02:16.460 --> 01:02:19.380 this this work week already and you know you 01:02:19.380 --> 01:02:21.360 don't you don't hear dc guys going oh i don't 01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:23.260 go to work enough that's their norm they just 01:02:23.260 --> 01:02:25.980 go to work and then they do things outside um 01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:30.059 but i think that it's not one or the other you 01:02:30.059 --> 01:02:32.199 know this oh if we just give them more time off 01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:34.900 they'll just work more you hear that from people 01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:38.280 where there's woefully amount of of overtime 01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:41.539 it's it's poorly managed it's poorly staffed 01:02:41.539 --> 01:02:44.800 and therefore yes the overtime is mandatory usually 01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:47.099 and i i was part of that even in anaheim so we 01:02:47.099 --> 01:02:49.360 hired the class behind me we were just getting 01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:52.179 murdered and then orange county non -stop and 01:02:52.179 --> 01:02:54.440 you know the last place i worked is when it finally 01:02:54.440 --> 01:02:58.820 tapered off a bit um but I agree with you 100%. 01:02:58.820 --> 01:03:00.639 And if you look at it from the performance point 01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:02.920 of view, the guys listening that are all out 01:03:02.920 --> 01:03:05.579 with their fitness, with their taking classes 01:03:05.579 --> 01:03:08.159 and search training and all the other things, 01:03:08.260 --> 01:03:11.500 it would be like saying, well, I'm going to play 01:03:11.500 --> 01:03:16.739 for the Rams and the Giants. But I'm not training 01:03:16.739 --> 01:03:18.739 for the Rams. I'm going to go play for the Giants 01:03:18.739 --> 01:03:20.440 and vice versa. You would never do that as an 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:23.079 athlete. You're all in on that one team. And 01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:24.699 then what's in between is your rest and recovery 01:03:24.699 --> 01:03:27.119 and training. And obviously the other things 01:03:27.119 --> 01:03:29.619 are important, time with the family and taking 01:03:29.619 --> 01:03:32.840 care of your home. But I agree with you a thousand 01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:35.980 percent. I think it just should be as simple 01:03:35.980 --> 01:03:38.099 as having it in writing when you're hired by 01:03:38.099 --> 01:03:40.599 a department. There's no problem with you working 01:03:40.599 --> 01:03:42.980 on your days off as long as you are not working 01:03:42.980 --> 01:03:46.440 overnight continuously. So don't work in the 01:03:46.440 --> 01:03:48.619 ER. Don't take a private ambulance job. Don't 01:03:48.619 --> 01:03:52.050 go work for another fire department. But be an 01:03:52.050 --> 01:03:54.449 entrepreneur, create a second business. What 01:03:54.449 --> 01:03:57.190 happens if there's some catastrophe and you get 01:03:57.190 --> 01:04:00.269 laid off as a firefighter, or you get hurt and 01:04:00.269 --> 01:04:03.010 your identity has been shifted now? Now you have 01:04:03.010 --> 01:04:05.010 this landscaping business, this personal training, 01:04:05.230 --> 01:04:07.789 this whatever you're doing on the side. And now 01:04:07.789 --> 01:04:10.809 it's an absolute compliment to the fire service. 01:04:10.969 --> 01:04:14.090 And that way, if you want extra money, or in 01:04:14.090 --> 01:04:16.829 some cases need extra money because of the pay 01:04:16.829 --> 01:04:20.090 that you get, you're solving that issue without... 01:04:20.349 --> 01:04:22.949 killing yourself in the process. So I think you 01:04:22.949 --> 01:04:24.769 always hear one or the other. And the answer 01:04:24.769 --> 01:04:27.989 is yes to both in the middle. Yeah. Don't work 01:04:27.989 --> 01:04:30.610 overnight on your second job, but at the same 01:04:30.610 --> 01:04:33.809 time, be an entrepreneur, forge that second passion, 01:04:33.929 --> 01:04:36.530 because as you alluded to, that's another tribe, 01:04:36.530 --> 01:04:39.150 another identity, and that will become an asset 01:04:39.150 --> 01:04:43.030 to you as a firefighter. Right. And it can, it 01:04:43.030 --> 01:04:45.989 can be fire service or EMS service related. Like 01:04:45.989 --> 01:04:48.550 you can be an instructor. You could teach at 01:04:48.550 --> 01:04:51.380 the academy during the day. Yeah. You know, um, 01:04:51.460 --> 01:04:56.019 you can, can do conferences, teach at conferences, 01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.480 things like that. Um, nothing wrong with that, 01:04:58.480 --> 01:05:01.920 that, that keeps you in the, in the business 01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:05.320 of what you know, but, uh, um, yeah, there's 01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:08.840 just too many, too many people going for that 01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:12.599 shift work. And, uh, and the shift work is so 01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:17.760 tough on you. Just one, one agency. If you're 01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:21.679 doing two. or multiple agencies uh it's insane 01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:28.019 what are your perspectives on the dwindling recruitment 01:05:28.019 --> 01:05:31.059 that we're seeing i came on um not long after 01:05:31.059 --> 01:05:33.400 9 11 so obviously there was a big you know uptick 01:05:33.400 --> 01:05:36.460 again very very competitive but i know you know 01:05:36.460 --> 01:05:39.579 the 80s 90s were extremely competitive too so 01:05:39.579 --> 01:05:42.500 in these four decades plus that you've watched 01:05:42.500 --> 01:05:45.860 what are you what have you seen as far as recruitment 01:05:45.860 --> 01:05:49.159 and retention and what are some other um kind 01:05:49.159 --> 01:05:52.079 of ideas as far as addressing this and making 01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:53.900 that list big again because i think one of the 01:05:53.900 --> 01:05:56.019 most dangerous things and i hear it from so many 01:05:56.019 --> 01:05:59.059 places is you know we have five vacancies and 01:05:59.059 --> 01:06:01.059 we had seven applicants which means that you're 01:06:01.059 --> 01:06:03.099 taking pretty much everyone that applies for 01:06:03.099 --> 01:06:05.760 you which is not what this job is about yeah 01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:11.059 and then when i when i uh applied for atlanta 01:06:11.059 --> 01:06:16.760 you know there was 1200 for 40. or what have 01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:18.820 you. Yeah, I actually talked about this in my 01:06:18.820 --> 01:06:25.559 keynote at FDIC this year. And I honestly, I 01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:27.420 think there's a couple of things going on. One 01:06:27.420 --> 01:06:33.280 is, and you touched on it earlier, is there's 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:39.079 so much, there's so much of this, this is killing 01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:42.579 us, that's killing us. You're going to get cancer. 01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:45.360 You know, everybody's going to die. There's so 01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:48.960 much of that out there that that that turns that 01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.920 turns people off. And there's not enough talk 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:54.699 about the positive side because there's other 01:06:54.699 --> 01:07:00.059 professions where there's exposures and and risk 01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:03.760 and mental health issues and all that, too. But 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:07.559 we're just we're focused on on ourself. I honestly. 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:10.719 I think, though, that the biggest issue is it 01:07:10.719 --> 01:07:13.719 all boils down to leadership. And it usually 01:07:13.719 --> 01:07:21.920 always does, is that your biggest recruiting 01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:25.239 arm of your department is your existing employees. 01:07:26.219 --> 01:07:30.800 And it always has been. Obviously, you needed 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:34.340 to reach out to groups that weren't represented 01:07:34.340 --> 01:07:38.889 in the departments. There needs to be special 01:07:38.889 --> 01:07:43.590 efforts to reach out to new groups all the time, 01:07:43.630 --> 01:07:46.510 but that's where your real recruiting efforts 01:07:46.510 --> 01:07:52.530 and money should need to be spent, not on getting 01:07:52.530 --> 01:07:57.010 your base level of employees because it's tell 01:07:57.010 --> 01:07:59.650 a friend. I mean, it's like, man, you need to 01:07:59.650 --> 01:08:01.869 think about coming on the fire department. I 01:08:01.869 --> 01:08:05.130 know you got this going on, but man, it's awesome. 01:08:06.590 --> 01:08:10.070 That's the way 90 % of the people came on the 01:08:10.070 --> 01:08:13.690 fire department. They had a friend on the fire 01:08:13.690 --> 01:08:15.650 department, a relative on the fire department, 01:08:15.750 --> 01:08:19.930 and they told them how awesome it was. But as 01:08:19.930 --> 01:08:24.529 the leadership changed and we had poorer and 01:08:24.529 --> 01:08:29.270 poorer leadership, that changed and people in 01:08:29.270 --> 01:08:32.609 your organization are telling people not to come 01:08:32.609 --> 01:08:38.449 to my department. Maybe go to maybe they know 01:08:38.449 --> 01:08:42.369 of another department that appears better or 01:08:42.369 --> 01:08:44.609 whatever. They'll say, I would apply over here, 01:08:44.630 --> 01:08:47.329 but not over here where you still was like, man, 01:08:47.369 --> 01:08:49.789 put your application here, here, here. And whoever 01:08:49.789 --> 01:08:52.630 takes you, that's where you need to go. You know, 01:08:52.649 --> 01:08:56.850 but I honestly think it's a it's a leadership 01:08:56.850 --> 01:09:03.170 problem. You know, the the the fire chiefs. need 01:09:03.170 --> 01:09:05.869 to be the number one cheerleader for their organization 01:09:05.869 --> 01:09:09.750 and they need to be out there and they have to 01:09:09.750 --> 01:09:11.890 let their guys do the job that they were hired 01:09:11.890 --> 01:09:15.810 for and not be so risk averse and afraid. I think, 01:09:15.810 --> 01:09:18.050 and that's part of the reason that you lost your 01:09:18.050 --> 01:09:20.289 internal people as recruiters. They're like, 01:09:20.329 --> 01:09:23.149 you know, we can't do anything anymore. And the 01:09:23.149 --> 01:09:26.609 departments that have realized that they don't 01:09:26.609 --> 01:09:31.880 have recruiting problems. They have tons of applicants. 01:09:32.100 --> 01:09:35.000 There's people moving across the country to work 01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:37.779 at those departments. Unfortunately, there's 01:09:37.779 --> 01:09:42.319 not many of them, but it's slowly, slowly going 01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:50.079 full circle. And I think we'll see a rise. I 01:09:50.079 --> 01:09:54.779 mean, the stats are out there on the military 01:09:54.779 --> 01:09:58.989 was having the same problems. You know, there's 01:09:58.989 --> 01:10:00.989 been a, been a big change, whether you agree 01:10:00.989 --> 01:10:04.670 with the politics or not, there has been a huge 01:10:04.670 --> 01:10:08.390 change in recruiting is up drastically in the 01:10:08.390 --> 01:10:11.630 military. Um, and it's the same, it's the same 01:10:11.630 --> 01:10:14.729 mentality for the fire department. You gotta, 01:10:14.829 --> 01:10:19.750 you gotta, the new generation wants more than 01:10:19.750 --> 01:10:23.989 anything to be a part of something and they want 01:10:23.989 --> 01:10:28.579 value. They want belonging. And the fire department 01:10:28.579 --> 01:10:30.819 can give them that under the right leadership. 01:10:32.899 --> 01:10:37.279 But you got to win. You got to win recruiting. 01:10:37.439 --> 01:10:39.680 You got to win your existing employees first. 01:10:40.640 --> 01:10:44.779 There's no gadget or trinket or slogan that's 01:10:44.779 --> 01:10:47.340 going to bring them in. And you can throw all 01:10:47.340 --> 01:10:50.520 the money at it at the world. And it's temporary. 01:10:51.439 --> 01:10:55.399 You know. We talked about the overtime. We're 01:10:55.399 --> 01:10:58.880 all dogs. However much food you put in the bowl, 01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:01.399 we'll eat and we'll keep eating and we'll keep 01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:06.000 eating. If you throw out a $40 ,000 signing bonus, 01:11:06.279 --> 01:11:09.100 your recruitment numbers are going to go up temporarily, 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:13.039 but they're not going to stay more than a couple 01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:14.960 of years because they're going to get aggravated 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:17.439 with whatever it is you're doing to have to offer 01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:21.819 a $40 ,000 recruitment. You want to recruit people? 01:11:22.220 --> 01:11:26.340 Let them fight fire and give them a lot of training 01:11:26.340 --> 01:11:31.199 and have decent equipment and a good schedule 01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:34.239 and decent benefits. You don't have to have the 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:37.699 best, but if you have that culture piece, you 01:11:37.699 --> 01:11:40.760 don't have to be the highest paid. If you have 01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:46.399 the culture piece down and there's a clear path 01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:51.289 to advancement, You know, sense of I'm going 01:11:51.289 --> 01:11:53.930 to take care of you if something happens. I got 01:11:53.930 --> 01:11:56.529 your back. If that's there, you won't have a 01:11:56.529 --> 01:12:01.630 problem keeping people. That, you know, kind 01:12:01.630 --> 01:12:05.409 of multi -generational. commitment to the fire 01:12:05.409 --> 01:12:07.189 service or the military here, the same thing. 01:12:07.310 --> 01:12:09.289 I hear this over and over again, that that used 01:12:09.289 --> 01:12:11.670 to be our greatest recruitment tool, as you said, 01:12:11.729 --> 01:12:13.649 whether it was our own family or our friend group. 01:12:14.109 --> 01:12:16.489 And you're hearing that diminishing now and circling 01:12:16.489 --> 01:12:18.649 around to what you're saying as far as the doom 01:12:18.649 --> 01:12:21.930 and gloom message from our department. I couldn't 01:12:21.930 --> 01:12:24.090 agree more. And this is why I fight tooth and 01:12:24.090 --> 01:12:26.930 nail to bring solutions. It's like, we don't 01:12:26.930 --> 01:12:29.329 have to just accept these stats. Like these are 01:12:29.329 --> 01:12:32.409 preventable. We don't need to be known to. be 01:12:32.409 --> 01:12:34.130 on our third marriage and an alcohol problem 01:12:34.130 --> 01:12:37.470 after 10 years. That's not normal. You wouldn't 01:12:37.470 --> 01:12:39.369 join a grocery store if that was their recruiting 01:12:39.369 --> 01:12:44.470 tool. But what was interesting, I had a couple 01:12:44.470 --> 01:12:46.630 of firefighters, a few firefighter spouses together 01:12:46.630 --> 01:12:49.909 on a while ago. And one of them was talking about 01:12:49.909 --> 01:12:52.989 one of their sons was all in on the fire service. 01:12:53.090 --> 01:12:55.430 He had, you know, the outfit he had, you know, 01:12:55.430 --> 01:12:58.090 would play with the hose in the back. And then 01:12:58.090 --> 01:13:00.090 fast forward a few years now, he's a teenager. 01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:02.420 And they happened to say, so are you looking 01:13:02.420 --> 01:13:04.520 to go in the fire service? And he was like, hell 01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:07.979 no. And they said, well, okay, well, why not? 01:13:08.220 --> 01:13:12.180 And he said, because dad's never home. He didn't 01:13:12.180 --> 01:13:14.539 say, I don't want to go into fires. He didn't 01:13:14.539 --> 01:13:17.060 say, I'm scared of cancer. He didn't say, I don't 01:13:17.060 --> 01:13:20.819 want to see guts and gore. He said, my dad is 01:13:20.819 --> 01:13:23.239 never here. And I think that's the distinction 01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:26.479 between what we're alluding to with the 2472 01:13:26.479 --> 01:13:29.630 that's happening here in Florida. These young 01:13:29.630 --> 01:13:32.890 people are in tune, and they want to be all in 01:13:32.890 --> 01:13:35.409 on whatever profession they're in, but they value 01:13:35.409 --> 01:13:37.430 their time at home. They value their mental health. 01:13:37.470 --> 01:13:39.670 They value their relationships, and as should 01:13:39.670 --> 01:13:41.590 have we. But we went in blindly, beating our 01:13:41.590 --> 01:13:44.789 chest, because no one knew otherwise at that 01:13:44.789 --> 01:13:47.899 time. But I think when you separate the two things 01:13:47.899 --> 01:13:50.739 and advocating for a healthy work week that allows 01:13:50.739 --> 01:13:53.460 a firefighter EMT or paramedic to operate at 01:13:53.460 --> 01:13:56.600 the highest possible level and own their fitness 01:13:56.600 --> 01:14:00.579 and have a reduced incidence of injury and, you 01:14:00.579 --> 01:14:05.479 know, high mental acuity. That's pushing the 01:14:05.479 --> 01:14:07.899 job to another level completely and being even 01:14:07.899 --> 01:14:11.390 more proud and a higher performer. But sticking 01:14:11.390 --> 01:14:13.569 our head in the sand and allowing our people 01:14:13.569 --> 01:14:16.670 to be worked into the ground, that's never the 01:14:16.670 --> 01:14:18.930 job. That was never the job. As you said, that's 01:14:18.930 --> 01:14:21.510 poor mismanagement of staffing. That's nothing 01:14:21.510 --> 01:14:24.590 to do with being a firefighter, being a paramedic. 01:14:25.010 --> 01:14:27.590 But you want to create a burnt out firefighter, 01:14:27.590 --> 01:14:30.130 work them 56 hours a week and then tell them 01:14:30.130 --> 01:14:31.750 at 7 o 'clock in the morning they can't go home 01:14:31.750 --> 01:14:34.949 to their children. That's how you fuck up the 01:14:34.949 --> 01:14:37.470 fire service. So I think this is what's beautiful 01:14:37.470 --> 01:14:41.170 about this discussion. is when we fix the things 01:14:41.170 --> 01:14:43.350 that are broken, and I would argue the 42 -hour 01:14:43.350 --> 01:14:46.289 workweek is essential and ultimately should become 01:14:46.289 --> 01:14:49.510 a national standard, we're going to attract a 01:14:49.510 --> 01:14:51.890 lot of incredible applicants. And I've heard 01:14:51.890 --> 01:14:54.250 this over and over again. The fit candidates 01:14:54.250 --> 01:14:56.689 that we have today are fitter than your generation, 01:14:56.850 --> 01:14:59.850 they're fitter than my generation, because strength 01:14:59.850 --> 01:15:01.569 and conditioning and nutrition has advanced even 01:15:01.569 --> 01:15:04.229 more. So we've got some incredible people out 01:15:04.229 --> 01:15:07.000 there. And if we can just show them that we care 01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:08.779 enough that when we say they're supposed to go 01:15:08.779 --> 01:15:11.399 home, they go home, aside from an earthquake, 01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:14.239 a hurricane, a mass shooting, when we're all 01:15:14.239 --> 01:15:16.880 hands, I think we're going to see a complete 01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:19.239 reversal. Because 10 years ago, it was still 01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:21.420 competitive. So when we have this conversation 01:15:21.420 --> 01:15:24.300 about recruitment, it's like, understand, this 01:15:24.300 --> 01:15:27.060 is only 10 years that this has devolved down 01:15:27.060 --> 01:15:29.460 to where we are now. So we can turn it around. 01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:32.760 We have to change the things that are broken. 01:15:32.859 --> 01:15:34.600 I think this is what's exciting. And that's, 01:15:34.600 --> 01:15:37.800 I think, then how you turn that culture around. 01:15:37.979 --> 01:15:40.859 And then you can have that simultaneous conversation 01:15:40.859 --> 01:15:44.079 about fitness standards and high levels of intense 01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:47.739 training. Because we've always talked about how 01:15:47.739 --> 01:15:50.539 do we stop us dying? If you talk to strength 01:15:50.539 --> 01:15:52.199 and conditioning coaches and nutritionists that 01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:54.840 work with special operations, they're talking 01:15:54.840 --> 01:15:57.640 about performance. So how can we get James Gearing 01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:00.489 to put 100 pounds of gear on his back? go 20 01:16:00.489 --> 01:16:03.630 floors and then have the aerobic capacity to 01:16:03.630 --> 01:16:06.130 do a primary search and then maybe pull someone 01:16:06.130 --> 01:16:08.930 all the way back down. So it's a very exciting 01:16:08.930 --> 01:16:11.489 conversation, this work week. But people have 01:16:11.489 --> 01:16:15.109 to own the fact that for the last 10 plus years, 01:16:15.229 --> 01:16:17.630 they've buried their head in the sand and they 01:16:17.630 --> 01:16:19.789 are responsible for this crisis. And so they 01:16:19.789 --> 01:16:22.590 have to find the courage to say, we were wrong. 01:16:22.630 --> 01:16:25.310 We were doing it the wrong way. The money is 01:16:25.310 --> 01:16:27.689 there downstream from all the mandatory overtime 01:16:27.689 --> 01:16:30.449 that we're bleeding. We have to put it front 01:16:30.449 --> 01:16:32.970 loaded, invest in our people. And I guarantee 01:16:32.970 --> 01:16:35.390 you, you'll see recruitment shoot back up again. 01:16:37.270 --> 01:16:40.149 Yep. I think schedule is going to be a huge part 01:16:40.149 --> 01:16:44.409 in the urban environments. Getting a handle on 01:16:44.409 --> 01:16:48.569 the medical calls is going to be a big thing. 01:16:48.689 --> 01:16:51.430 I just wrote about that recently is that it's 01:16:51.430 --> 01:16:53.949 no longer the emergency medical services, the 01:16:53.949 --> 01:16:58.710 medical service and all of the needless. calls 01:16:58.710 --> 01:17:03.390 adds into that just burnout, um, where you're 01:17:03.390 --> 01:17:06.630 going into those multiple calls. And when I see 01:17:06.630 --> 01:17:09.470 some of these different shifts, uh, what's the 01:17:09.470 --> 01:17:11.590 new one that everybody was going to like the 01:17:11.590 --> 01:17:15.770 last couple of years, like a 96, 96 or what have 01:17:15.770 --> 01:17:19.649 you. And I'm like, how in the hell? And, and, 01:17:19.750 --> 01:17:21.750 you know, some people say they love it and all, 01:17:21.829 --> 01:17:25.750 but like, there's no way in our, in, in the department 01:17:25.750 --> 01:17:29.550 I worked in that that would work. Like it would, 01:17:29.590 --> 01:17:33.069 I guess, well, I say it wouldn't depend on what 01:17:33.069 --> 01:17:36.390 station you were at, but like it could not work 01:17:36.390 --> 01:17:39.409 at a busy station because you're looking at by 01:17:39.409 --> 01:17:41.850 the end of your shift, you being on 60 calls 01:17:41.850 --> 01:17:45.409 in two days. Yep. And granted, not every one 01:17:45.409 --> 01:17:47.510 of them was a fire or whatever, but like just 01:17:47.510 --> 01:17:52.149 that constant in and out and broken sleep. If 01:17:52.149 --> 01:17:54.550 you got any sleep at all, your decision making 01:17:54.550 --> 01:17:59.010 ability would be like you were. massively poisoned 01:17:59.010 --> 01:18:03.270 with with carbon monoxide you know it would be 01:18:03.270 --> 01:18:08.250 horrible so uh that one's that's one folks got 01:18:08.250 --> 01:18:12.329 to be careful with um for sure if you're running 01:18:12.329 --> 01:18:14.210 a lot of calls that's not a schedule you want 01:18:14.210 --> 01:18:16.689 to work no well i've said two things firstly 01:18:16.689 --> 01:18:20.029 the people that agree and good good organizations 01:18:20.029 --> 01:18:24.569 or oppose firefighters working less than 56 those 01:18:24.569 --> 01:18:26.729 people go home at five o 'clock and work 40 hours 01:18:27.210 --> 01:18:29.210 So for the firefighters, think about that. The 01:18:29.210 --> 01:18:31.210 people that say you can't work 16 hours less 01:18:31.210 --> 01:18:32.630 than you and don't have to stay up all night. 01:18:33.010 --> 01:18:36.710 The second thing is to, when you actually unpack 01:18:36.710 --> 01:18:39.289 it, you say, okay, I'm on a 24, 48, we're going 01:18:39.289 --> 01:18:42.310 to go to a 48, 96. So to make my life better, 01:18:42.390 --> 01:18:44.430 we're going to go from a 56 hour work week to 01:18:44.430 --> 01:18:46.930 a 56 hour work week. Now I'm no mathematician, 01:18:47.010 --> 01:18:50.310 but that sounds pretty shit to me. So, you know, 01:18:50.310 --> 01:18:52.170 you have to look at the number of hours, you 01:18:52.170 --> 01:18:54.689 know, why do you not deserve to go home the same 01:18:54.689 --> 01:18:57.649 as the. baker and the butcher and the candlestick 01:18:57.649 --> 01:18:59.609 maker and everyone else in your community you 01:18:59.609 --> 01:19:03.050 know we we are asked to do so much with so little 01:19:03.050 --> 01:19:05.829 if ever there was a profession that needed the 01:19:05.829 --> 01:19:09.970 rest and recovery it is police fire and ems and 01:19:09.970 --> 01:19:14.750 the police are working 40 yeah for the same salary 01:19:14.750 --> 01:19:16.529 we always say oh we compare with the police like 01:19:16.529 --> 01:19:18.390 have you have you talked to that you work six 01:19:18.390 --> 01:19:22.289 you guys get to sleep you guys get to sleep yeah 01:19:22.289 --> 01:19:30.479 i've worked uh I did work the 24 -48 with a, 01:19:30.479 --> 01:19:33.979 I think it was a nine shift Kelly day. That wasn't 01:19:33.979 --> 01:19:37.020 too bad. And then some do a seven shift Kelly 01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:40.800 day. So it basically gives you, you know, a full 01:19:40.800 --> 01:19:44.260 week off every three weeks. That was a decent 01:19:44.260 --> 01:19:48.100 schedule when I was young too. So there's some 01:19:48.100 --> 01:19:52.050 creative ways to. to get those hours in, in different 01:19:52.050 --> 01:19:54.050 places. And then again, it may be like we said, 01:19:54.090 --> 01:19:58.770 it's like, if you look at budget wise, um, adding 01:19:58.770 --> 01:20:01.069 a shift and maintaining your staffing levels 01:20:01.069 --> 01:20:04.789 is like any effort you make to make it better. 01:20:05.090 --> 01:20:08.390 Even if you gradually step into a big change 01:20:08.390 --> 01:20:11.390 like that is going to send a message that you 01:20:11.390 --> 01:20:14.909 actually give a shit about your people, you know? 01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:18.920 But going through that mandatory overtime, so 01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:23.420 you can't recruit, you can't recruit and you 01:20:23.420 --> 01:20:25.300 can't hire people and you can't train them fast 01:20:25.300 --> 01:20:27.399 enough. So you're ineffective, you're inefficient. 01:20:27.739 --> 01:20:31.659 And so you make your existing people work more 01:20:31.659 --> 01:20:36.279 on those mandatory overtime. And, you know, there 01:20:36.279 --> 01:20:39.920 was 20 % of the people that loved it because 01:20:39.920 --> 01:20:42.460 they were the same people that worked every day 01:20:42.460 --> 01:20:47.090 overtime anyway. But then there was 80 % that 01:20:47.090 --> 01:20:49.789 absolutely hated it because you couldn't plan 01:20:49.789 --> 01:20:54.689 and schedule. Yeah, I would argue as well. A 01:20:54.689 --> 01:20:57.130 lot of the overtime whores that we're aware of, 01:20:57.210 --> 01:20:58.989 you know, especially, I mean, it's one thing 01:20:58.989 --> 01:21:02.510 if you're 21 years old, single, you know, nothing 01:21:02.510 --> 01:21:04.529 to do. But I mean, if anyone who has a family, 01:21:04.689 --> 01:21:06.970 you've really got to ask yourself, why do I not 01:21:06.970 --> 01:21:08.949 want to go home? And I would argue that some, 01:21:09.050 --> 01:21:12.569 you know. Looking inside and some therapy would 01:21:12.569 --> 01:21:14.750 probably change your outlook on being at the 01:21:14.750 --> 01:21:19.289 fire station all the time. It was a great little 01:21:19.289 --> 01:21:23.350 Facebook post or Instagram reel I saw this morning. 01:21:23.609 --> 01:21:29.090 What was the movie? Jodie Foster and... Silence 01:21:29.090 --> 01:21:31.210 of the Lambs. Silence of the Lambs. What was 01:21:31.210 --> 01:21:34.670 his name? Hannibal Lecter. Hannibal Lecter. It 01:21:34.670 --> 01:21:37.649 says... Coming back to the fire station and seeing 01:21:37.649 --> 01:21:40.770 that same dude that never turns in overtime day 01:21:40.770 --> 01:21:42.909 down. And it was like walking in and it was that 01:21:42.909 --> 01:21:44.630 scene where they're just panning through the 01:21:44.630 --> 01:21:47.989 cell and you see him standing there. It's like, 01:21:47.989 --> 01:21:51.810 it's so true. It's like you do. And as a battalion 01:21:51.810 --> 01:21:54.789 chief having to hire overtime. It was like, you'd 01:21:54.789 --> 01:21:56.789 go down your list. You're like, you knew who 01:21:56.789 --> 01:21:58.649 was going to say no. And you knew who was going 01:21:58.649 --> 01:22:02.210 to say yes. And the aides sometimes would get 01:22:02.210 --> 01:22:04.010 tripped up because they would just be like, to 01:22:04.010 --> 01:22:05.569 hell with this. Like, why am I going to call 01:22:05.569 --> 01:22:08.130 20 numbers? And I know every one of them is going 01:22:08.130 --> 01:22:09.710 to turn it down. I know this guy's going to work. 01:22:09.789 --> 01:22:11.949 So I'm just going to call this guy. And so they 01:22:11.949 --> 01:22:14.229 call that guy. He comes to work. And then there 01:22:14.229 --> 01:22:16.569 was one guy in that 20 that decided he wanted 01:22:16.569 --> 01:22:18.970 to work overtime. And he's like filing a grievance 01:22:18.970 --> 01:22:21.850 because they didn't call me. You've turned it 01:22:21.850 --> 01:22:24.310 down 50 times, but they didn't call you that 01:22:24.310 --> 01:22:27.949 one week. So it was tough. Well, what's interesting, 01:22:28.109 --> 01:22:31.489 if you look at Plano, Texas, it just became the 01:22:31.489 --> 01:22:34.310 first department in Texas to go to 2472. The 01:22:34.310 --> 01:22:38.770 way they're doing it is they are using a ladder 01:22:38.770 --> 01:22:41.029 system. So the first year, they're going to create 01:22:41.029 --> 01:22:43.090 a six -week Kelly, second year, a three -week 01:22:43.090 --> 01:22:46.529 Kelly, third year, 2472 with debit days, fourth 01:22:46.529 --> 01:22:50.079 year, fully staffed. But they've announced that 01:22:50.079 --> 01:22:51.699 that is the plan. Just like you said, we are 01:22:51.699 --> 01:22:55.300 committing to this. And in Pasco County, you're 01:22:55.300 --> 01:22:57.020 going to go to it in January. That was two and 01:22:57.020 --> 01:22:59.140 a half years. It became two years. But they said 01:22:59.140 --> 01:23:02.060 we are going to this. It doesn't have to be overnight. 01:23:02.140 --> 01:23:04.479 Like you said, that switch doesn't have to be 01:23:04.479 --> 01:23:06.819 flipped. But you can't turn that battleship around 01:23:06.819 --> 01:23:08.600 without starting to turn the steering wheel either. 01:23:11.119 --> 01:23:13.319 But what they've done, and this is the misnomer 01:23:13.319 --> 01:23:15.359 with Kelly days, is if you just say, we're going 01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:17.260 to go to Kelly, well, you've just punched more 01:23:17.260 --> 01:23:19.539 holes in the staffing that people are going to 01:23:19.539 --> 01:23:21.319 work at time and a half. So you've added more 01:23:21.319 --> 01:23:24.520 overtime costs too. But if you hire classes that 01:23:24.520 --> 01:23:26.880 then will cover those Kelly days on your way 01:23:26.880 --> 01:23:30.579 to this 24 -72, that becomes beautiful. All right, 01:23:30.600 --> 01:23:32.500 one class is now covering a six -week Kelly, 01:23:32.619 --> 01:23:36.619 then a three -week, then this D -shift, and then 01:23:36.619 --> 01:23:39.399 people are kind of still working a few debit 01:23:39.399 --> 01:23:42.170 days, and then... year four they're fully fully 01:23:42.170 --> 01:23:45.270 staffed so the kelly can be used if it's a rung 01:23:45.270 --> 01:23:47.670 on the ladder to this but if you're not saying 01:23:47.670 --> 01:23:50.789 we are the end goal will be not might be will 01:23:50.789 --> 01:23:53.630 be a 24 72 you're not going to have those people 01:23:53.630 --> 01:23:56.289 testing with you because a kelly on its own really 01:23:56.289 --> 01:23:58.210 makes nothing better they end up working their 01:23:58.210 --> 01:24:00.010 own kelly day and they get paid time and a half 01:24:00.010 --> 01:24:02.489 for it so cost more money no one gets any extra 01:24:02.489 --> 01:24:08.170 time off yeah Yep. I've done that too. So has 01:24:08.170 --> 01:24:11.289 I in reading Greek. Well, an interesting - If 01:24:11.289 --> 01:24:16.609 New York, I think New York has a 12 hour or 10, 01:24:16.670 --> 01:24:19.090 14 or whatever, but they always pair up with 01:24:19.090 --> 01:24:21.949 somebody and it ends up being a 24, 72. Isn't 01:24:21.949 --> 01:24:23.810 that right? Yeah. Yeah. And this is what's crazy. 01:24:23.829 --> 01:24:26.609 Boston, you know, which I believe is where our 01:24:26.609 --> 01:24:29.189 IFF leadership are from. They work, you know, 01:24:29.189 --> 01:24:33.050 42 hour work week, 24, 72. DC does. But where 01:24:33.050 --> 01:24:35.329 is the conversation of what we need to advocate 01:24:35.329 --> 01:24:37.109 for the rest of the profession? They do the same 01:24:37.109 --> 01:24:40.649 exact job as us. Why are they not working what 01:24:40.649 --> 01:24:43.189 we work? So that's a voice I wish I'd heard, 01:24:43.310 --> 01:24:47.869 but I don't hear it yet, sadly. It's coming. 01:24:48.390 --> 01:24:51.550 Like I said, once there's a couple that are getting 01:24:51.550 --> 01:24:55.409 the publicity and word gets out, it'll happen. 01:24:55.449 --> 01:24:59.199 It'll do the Ivy trick, I'm telling you. All 01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:00.880 right. Well, another interesting thing that came 01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:02.439 out of this whole conversation, which should 01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:04.260 be, you know, great to get your perspective on. 01:25:05.539 --> 01:25:11.039 As Gainesville went to the 2472, where the challenge 01:25:11.039 --> 01:25:12.880 is, and it's not an issue at all, it's just going 01:25:12.880 --> 01:25:15.039 to take a bit longer because we're undoing, as 01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:18.439 we mentioned, 10, 20 years worth of damage. You 01:25:18.439 --> 01:25:20.439 see a lot of these departments are young, you 01:25:20.439 --> 01:25:22.479 know, 50 % have got five years or less because 01:25:22.479 --> 01:25:25.319 of the lack of attention in a lot of areas. So 01:25:25.319 --> 01:25:27.020 the promotional, you know, you don't want to 01:25:27.020 --> 01:25:28.779 push a guy through with a year and a half on 01:25:28.779 --> 01:25:31.520 to a lieutenant's spot, for example. So they 01:25:31.520 --> 01:25:35.279 were actually considering laterals and the conversation 01:25:35.279 --> 01:25:39.090 then came up about reciprocity. We, as you mentioned, 01:25:39.170 --> 01:25:42.189 there are idiosyncrasies for each state, each 01:25:42.189 --> 01:25:44.029 area. I'm in the mountains. I'm by the ocean. 01:25:44.109 --> 01:25:46.350 It's cold here. It's hot here, whatever. But 01:25:46.350 --> 01:25:48.550 ultimately, it's still a hose is a hose, a ladder 01:25:48.550 --> 01:25:52.449 is a ladder. What is your perspective on national 01:25:52.449 --> 01:25:54.970 reciprocity? Of course, you can do a department 01:25:54.970 --> 01:25:58.810 -specific orientation. You can still have a probation 01:25:58.810 --> 01:26:01.010 so that if it's still a bad employee, it's still 01:26:01.010 --> 01:26:03.939 a bad employee. but removing the barriers so 01:26:03.939 --> 01:26:06.220 that firefighters from all over the country can 01:26:06.220 --> 01:26:11.039 work in different states. I'm 100 % for it because 01:26:11.039 --> 01:26:18.020 I think that forces the mayors and the commissioners 01:26:18.020 --> 01:26:22.520 to go after the absolute best leaders to run 01:26:22.520 --> 01:26:24.579 their departments if they want to keep their 01:26:24.579 --> 01:26:29.000 people. I had a pension. I had a defined benefit 01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:34.489 pension that kept me in check. You know, it was 01:26:34.489 --> 01:26:37.630 good enough for me to put up with a lot of stuff. 01:26:38.250 --> 01:26:41.229 And I was like, I'm not giving up this because 01:26:41.229 --> 01:26:43.949 I know what the payout is going to be in the 01:26:43.949 --> 01:26:47.930 end. Had it not been for that, which guys don't 01:26:47.930 --> 01:26:54.369 have anymore. You know, there are several places 01:26:54.369 --> 01:26:56.789 that I would have looked at, you know, going 01:26:56.789 --> 01:27:00.189 to if I didn't have to start all over it, you 01:27:00.189 --> 01:27:04.050 know, 20 years in the. in the service. Um, so 01:27:04.050 --> 01:27:05.770 yeah, I think it's good. We always thought it 01:27:05.770 --> 01:27:09.289 was stupid that you had to start all over. You, 01:27:09.390 --> 01:27:12.949 you can go chief to chief, you know, they'll 01:27:12.949 --> 01:27:16.010 hire and you could be, you can have the title 01:27:16.010 --> 01:27:21.649 chief in a five person department and get hired 01:27:21.649 --> 01:27:25.449 as a chief in a 200 person department, but you 01:27:25.449 --> 01:27:29.210 can't go from a firefighter and a 5 ,000 member. 01:27:29.990 --> 01:27:32.810 and be a firefighter in a five -member department. 01:27:33.029 --> 01:27:36.350 That was crazy. And I know there were some efforts 01:27:36.350 --> 01:27:40.090 with the standards and the pro boards and all 01:27:40.090 --> 01:27:48.350 that for making certifications like that. But 01:27:48.350 --> 01:27:51.430 again, it's egos. I know that there's actually 01:27:51.430 --> 01:27:54.649 a push for national certification right now with 01:27:54.649 --> 01:28:01.119 a group that I've talked to. I think it may be 01:28:01.119 --> 01:28:04.300 a good time to strike with that because of the 01:28:04.300 --> 01:28:07.960 recruiting issue. And I know talking to some 01:28:07.960 --> 01:28:10.140 chiefs in Florida, one of the things they found 01:28:10.140 --> 01:28:13.119 when they did their study a few years ago was 01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:17.819 that even though a department may win, look like 01:28:17.819 --> 01:28:20.739 they're winning, all they're doing is robbing 01:28:20.739 --> 01:28:25.399 from the same pool. So it's like there's only 01:28:25.399 --> 01:28:29.039 so many people interested right now. And, um, 01:28:29.300 --> 01:28:33.760 if, if, you know, the city of Miami hires 30, 01:28:33.979 --> 01:28:37.659 well, they've probably taken 20 from a County 01:28:37.659 --> 01:28:41.640 somewhere close by that has three to five years 01:28:41.640 --> 01:28:44.119 old and they're pulling them. Now it's creating 01:28:44.119 --> 01:28:46.479 a vacancy there. And those departments, like 01:28:46.479 --> 01:28:50.319 they consider themselves a, uh, a training department 01:28:50.319 --> 01:28:53.739 to go somewhere else. But, uh, I think, I think 01:28:53.739 --> 01:28:55.939 it would be good. good for the fire service to 01:28:55.939 --> 01:29:00.180 have that ability that portability and uh um 01:29:00.180 --> 01:29:03.699 and again i think the uh consequences would be 01:29:03.699 --> 01:29:09.420 it would expose um it would expose the bad leadership 01:29:09.420 --> 01:29:12.979 even more yeah it's interesting with me what 01:29:12.979 --> 01:29:14.920 you just said as far as a comment because uh 01:29:14.920 --> 01:29:18.199 the former chief turn deputy city manager of 01:29:18.199 --> 01:29:21.619 plano sam greif make sure to spell that right 01:29:21.619 --> 01:29:25.840 um was saying that he was kind of being uh lauded 01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:28.939 by the chiefs around him, like, oh, you're going 01:29:28.939 --> 01:29:31.380 to take our people. Well, firstly, Plano, from 01:29:31.380 --> 01:29:33.920 what I understand, I know Pasco County, they 01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:36.439 were the stepping stone departments. So firstly, 01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:39.420 they finally get their turn to get some of the 01:29:39.420 --> 01:29:40.979 recruits because they kept losing them to these 01:29:40.979 --> 01:29:44.119 other departments that are now complaining. Secondly, 01:29:44.119 --> 01:29:46.500 if you take a step back to what we were talking 01:29:46.500 --> 01:29:49.939 about earlier, when we were testing against thousands 01:29:49.939 --> 01:29:52.220 of people for a handful of jobs, that's how it 01:29:52.220 --> 01:29:56.260 used to be. So the goal isn't to pinch people's 01:29:56.260 --> 01:29:59.619 firefighters. It's to inspire the entire young 01:29:59.619 --> 01:30:02.640 generation to come into the profession. Someone 01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:04.939 told me that apparently in Florida, I think it 01:30:04.939 --> 01:30:08.460 was 20%. It might have even been 30. It might 01:30:08.460 --> 01:30:12.500 be 30%. Either way, a large percentage of certified 01:30:12.500 --> 01:30:15.359 Florida firefighters are not working as firefighters. 01:30:15.659 --> 01:30:18.359 So that in itself, you have a pool. you know, 01:30:18.380 --> 01:30:20.579 myself included at the moment, even though it's 01:30:20.579 --> 01:30:22.659 lapsed because of that ridiculous, you know, 01:30:22.659 --> 01:30:24.439 whatever it is, three -year thing, like I'm going 01:30:24.439 --> 01:30:27.340 to forget how to pull a hose. But, you know, 01:30:27.340 --> 01:30:29.399 so you have that pull to pull from, but the ultimate 01:30:29.399 --> 01:30:32.279 philosophy is the rising tide lifts all ships. 01:30:32.859 --> 01:30:35.840 If Plano, Texas has the courage to actually be 01:30:35.840 --> 01:30:38.920 the first ones to move, good for them. Good for 01:30:38.920 --> 01:30:41.899 them. Who was the first department that put SCBAs 01:30:41.899 --> 01:30:44.479 in? Who was the first department that put physical 01:30:44.479 --> 01:30:46.539 fitness standards, that put mental health counseling? 01:30:46.800 --> 01:30:48.380 I mean, you've got to have these first people 01:30:48.380 --> 01:30:50.020 that then become thought leaders for everyone 01:30:50.020 --> 01:30:52.819 to follow. Like you said, someone's got to plant 01:30:52.819 --> 01:30:56.260 the ivy in the first place. So I think it's very 01:30:56.260 --> 01:30:59.319 unfair for chiefs to start bitching about this 01:30:59.319 --> 01:31:02.260 progressive shift change, for example, like, 01:31:02.300 --> 01:31:04.199 oh, they're going to take our people. Like no 01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:06.859 one said you didn't have to change too. If you 01:31:06.859 --> 01:31:09.000 want to be part of that, you know, those thought 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:12.739 leaders, the first wave, then do exactly what 01:31:12.739 --> 01:31:15.420 Gainesville and Plano and, you know, Pasco and 01:31:15.420 --> 01:31:17.840 Boynton and all these other departments, Kissimmee, 01:31:17.840 --> 01:31:19.840 have done. They just said, you know what? We're 01:31:19.840 --> 01:31:21.920 just going to do it. That's it. That's all it 01:31:21.920 --> 01:31:24.460 takes. Even reciprocity. Anaheim, when I worked 01:31:24.460 --> 01:31:27.039 there, they were like, right, we'll take certs 01:31:27.039 --> 01:31:28.800 from around the country. They took my cert as 01:31:28.800 --> 01:31:30.399 a Florida firefighter. I worked in California 01:31:30.399 --> 01:31:33.560 because they just went, it works for us. That 01:31:33.560 --> 01:31:36.319 was it. End of story. So the power that you have 01:31:36.319 --> 01:31:38.960 in a department to go along with this, because 01:31:38.960 --> 01:31:42.699 all the tools are out there, you can make a change 01:31:42.699 --> 01:31:45.539 and move forward. Or you can sit on your hands 01:31:45.539 --> 01:31:47.579 and you can cry about how it's not fair that 01:31:47.579 --> 01:31:50.859 someone else is doing it better than you. I think 01:31:50.859 --> 01:31:53.800 it's awesome. I love challenging the status quo. 01:31:54.159 --> 01:31:57.859 And the people that complain the loudest are 01:31:57.859 --> 01:32:00.239 usually the ones that are most attached to the 01:32:00.239 --> 01:32:05.819 status quo. It's true in life. What's really 01:32:05.819 --> 01:32:09.159 funny is some of those chiefs that are complaining 01:32:09.159 --> 01:32:13.800 the most are probably the ones that complain 01:32:13.800 --> 01:32:18.199 about their guys not wanting to change. It's 01:32:18.199 --> 01:32:21.600 interesting. A good friend of mine implemented 01:32:21.600 --> 01:32:27.520 a policy in his department to where he was having 01:32:27.520 --> 01:32:32.819 recruitment problems. You know, they started 01:32:32.819 --> 01:32:35.380 surveying folks and finding out what the deal 01:32:35.380 --> 01:32:38.220 was. And the biggest deal was they didn't want 01:32:38.220 --> 01:32:41.699 to ride the ambulance. They wanted to be fire 01:32:41.699 --> 01:32:43.699 only, and they didn't want to ride the ambulance. 01:32:43.979 --> 01:32:50.420 So he put a new program in and hired medics to 01:32:50.420 --> 01:32:53.579 ride the ambulances. And if they wanted to do 01:32:53.579 --> 01:32:56.439 fire, they could. They could train and go to 01:32:56.439 --> 01:32:59.039 recruit school and become cross -trained, but 01:32:59.039 --> 01:33:03.100 they didn't have to. That department has no issues 01:33:03.100 --> 01:33:09.260 recruiting. Yeah. And, uh, and that chief got 01:33:09.260 --> 01:33:15.060 hate mail and you're ruining the fire service. 01:33:15.079 --> 01:33:18.520 You're destroying what it took us years to build. 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:23.159 And, you know, it's like, you're dude, you pick 01:33:23.159 --> 01:33:25.899 a model that works, pick a model that works. 01:33:25.920 --> 01:33:28.000 He found something that worked for his department 01:33:28.000 --> 01:33:30.779 that may not work everywhere. But it worked for 01:33:30.779 --> 01:33:32.279 his department. So why are you going to attack 01:33:32.279 --> 01:33:35.060 him? Probably because folks jumped ship and went 01:33:35.060 --> 01:33:38.279 to his department. Yeah, exactly. Actions speak 01:33:38.279 --> 01:33:40.680 louder than words. Yeah, you're a threat when 01:33:40.680 --> 01:33:42.680 you're an innovator, when you're on the front 01:33:42.680 --> 01:33:44.640 lines of that stuff. There used to be a saying 01:33:44.640 --> 01:33:48.140 that the pioneers took all the arrows because 01:33:48.140 --> 01:33:50.319 they were the first ones to forge out into the 01:33:50.319 --> 01:33:52.960 West. And that was the Wild West with the Indians. 01:33:53.039 --> 01:33:55.260 And they got attacked, you know, because they 01:33:55.260 --> 01:33:58.260 were outsiders. They were different. And there's 01:33:58.260 --> 01:34:02.680 a lot of truth to that. And I've seen it my whole 01:34:02.680 --> 01:34:07.960 career. Anything that's different from the norm 01:34:07.960 --> 01:34:13.260 creates that adversity and folks are comfortable 01:34:13.260 --> 01:34:16.079 in their positions. It's a threat to them. That 01:34:16.079 --> 01:34:21.479 change is a threat to what they have going on. 01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:24.619 And it's a threat in some ways, like a schedule 01:34:24.619 --> 01:34:28.060 change. The thread is maybe they'll lose some 01:34:28.060 --> 01:34:31.000 people to that department. But I think the bigger 01:34:31.000 --> 01:34:34.880 resistance is it takes work to make it happen. 01:34:35.600 --> 01:34:39.359 You got to go and meet and you got to sell it. 01:34:39.420 --> 01:34:43.060 You got to research and know your facts and you 01:34:43.060 --> 01:34:45.199 got to go sell it. It's much easier just to come 01:34:45.199 --> 01:34:48.340 to work and clock out at five, you know, and 01:34:48.340 --> 01:34:52.079 keep doing what you've done for 30 years and 01:34:52.079 --> 01:34:54.670 just keep it rolling. And, you know, those folks 01:34:54.670 --> 01:34:57.909 are the ones that need to retire. Yeah. I've 01:34:57.909 --> 01:35:00.350 always said, you know, if when we didn't understand 01:35:00.350 --> 01:35:04.550 all of this, this information, then I give you 01:35:04.550 --> 01:35:08.109 a pass. Absolutely. Once like now the information, 01:35:08.109 --> 01:35:10.729 just my podcast alone with all the people like 01:35:10.729 --> 01:35:12.489 yourself that have been on there, you know, and 01:35:12.489 --> 01:35:14.569 all the free resources now I have on this topic 01:35:14.569 --> 01:35:18.100 specifically. Now that is out there. And you 01:35:18.100 --> 01:35:20.140 still refuse to. And locally, I mean, we had 01:35:20.140 --> 01:35:22.180 the Florida fire chiefs put out an email saying 01:35:22.180 --> 01:35:25.039 that they opposed the 42 hour work week. That 01:35:25.039 --> 01:35:27.119 was their official stance after Governor DeSantis 01:35:27.119 --> 01:35:31.119 signed the bill. You know, locally here where 01:35:31.119 --> 01:35:33.579 I live, the county that protects my family, they've 01:35:33.579 --> 01:35:36.680 had six suicides in, you know, a handful of years, 01:35:36.760 --> 01:35:39.039 five years, whatever it's been. And so my thing 01:35:39.039 --> 01:35:41.479 is this, if you have all this information and 01:35:41.479 --> 01:35:43.520 you refuse to do nothing, then don't show up 01:35:43.520 --> 01:35:45.500 at the funeral. Don't put your class A's on. 01:35:46.000 --> 01:35:47.840 and pretend that you actually give a shit because 01:35:47.840 --> 01:35:50.199 you don't. Because someone who actually cares 01:35:50.199 --> 01:35:52.720 would be at the absolute forefront searching 01:35:52.720 --> 01:35:56.579 the corners of the earth for ways to resolve 01:35:56.579 --> 01:35:59.359 the issues that are affecting your people. Yeah. 01:35:59.380 --> 01:36:03.020 And if you don't like that solution, here's a 01:36:03.020 --> 01:36:06.359 solution I'm handing you. Here's a solution with 01:36:06.359 --> 01:36:08.479 the research. If you don't like that one, come 01:36:08.479 --> 01:36:12.399 up with a better one. You're not afraid of somebody 01:36:12.399 --> 01:36:15.710 coming up with something better, are you? Yep. 01:36:15.750 --> 01:36:18.109 A hundred percent. Yeah. Figure out a better 01:36:18.109 --> 01:36:22.449 one, you know, but yeah. Well, messengers are 01:36:22.449 --> 01:36:25.409 going to get shot. So don't give up. Just keep 01:36:25.409 --> 01:36:27.470 plugging away. I'm telling you, just, you just 01:36:27.470 --> 01:36:31.149 keep plugging. One of my favorite, uh, favorite 01:36:31.149 --> 01:36:33.890 old sayings that I had to use all the time was 01:36:33.890 --> 01:36:36.069 he who sits by the river long enough, sees the 01:36:36.069 --> 01:36:40.340 body of his enemy float by. There we go. Yeah. 01:36:40.399 --> 01:36:42.199 There's one that came across recently, Desmond 01:36:42.199 --> 01:36:43.939 Tutu, and I love this. This pertains completely 01:36:43.939 --> 01:36:47.020 to what we discussed. We spend so much time pulling 01:36:47.020 --> 01:36:49.119 bodies out the river, we forget to go upstream 01:36:49.119 --> 01:36:51.420 to find out why they're falling in in the first 01:36:51.420 --> 01:36:55.539 place. So two river analogies side by side. Yep. 01:36:55.640 --> 01:36:57.760 Dina Ali put that in her book. That was like 01:36:57.760 --> 01:37:02.340 kind of her opening. It's 100 % true. Great analogy. 01:37:03.020 --> 01:37:04.979 Absolutely. Well, I want to shift to make sure 01:37:04.979 --> 01:37:07.939 we spend some time on FDIC. So I actually had 01:37:07.939 --> 01:37:10.770 Chief Bobby Holton on. a long time ago and it 01:37:10.770 --> 01:37:14.130 was quite an entertaining uh conversation because 01:37:14.130 --> 01:37:16.569 he didn't understand that i start early life 01:37:16.569 --> 01:37:18.529 which we did our first conversation you know 01:37:18.529 --> 01:37:21.470 walk through and yeah the the guard went up and 01:37:21.470 --> 01:37:23.630 we laughed about it i mean we we talked and uh 01:37:23.630 --> 01:37:27.850 you know uh revisited it a couple years later 01:37:27.850 --> 01:37:30.529 but it was a great conversation um and then obviously 01:37:30.529 --> 01:37:32.989 sadly we lost him recently so you mentioned about 01:37:32.989 --> 01:37:35.409 being brought on kind of walk me through that 01:37:35.409 --> 01:37:38.119 you know losing bobby and then you know what 01:37:38.119 --> 01:37:42.359 you're doing now as far as the next kind of metamorphosis 01:37:42.359 --> 01:37:47.119 of FDIC. Yep. So he brought me on full time in 01:37:47.119 --> 01:37:54.420 August of, I guess it was 22. Yeah, I think it 01:37:54.420 --> 01:37:59.380 was 22. I can't remember dates too good. And 01:37:59.380 --> 01:38:01.899 so the plan was he was going to work about three 01:38:01.899 --> 01:38:06.520 years and then turn everything over to me. And 01:38:06.520 --> 01:38:11.659 I would have time to learn the publishing business, 01:38:11.979 --> 01:38:15.979 the media business, because I knew the FDIC side 01:38:15.979 --> 01:38:18.399 because I'd been running the training at FDIC 01:38:18.399 --> 01:38:20.859 for years and working in the system for probably 01:38:20.859 --> 01:38:24.520 20 years at the time, 22, I think. So I started 01:38:24.520 --> 01:38:27.579 as an instructor and then worked my way into 01:38:27.579 --> 01:38:31.229 the hands -on training. management and the logistics 01:38:31.229 --> 01:38:35.090 side of it, the planning side. And also I wasn't, 01:38:35.090 --> 01:38:39.909 you know, just fresh coming in. And, uh, so he 01:38:39.909 --> 01:38:42.029 was teaching me about the media, you know, the 01:38:42.029 --> 01:38:45.850 media side of it, which is two print publications, 01:38:46.069 --> 01:38:51.609 four websites, um, couple LMS, um, deals, and 01:38:51.609 --> 01:38:57.329 then FDIC as a, as a whole. And, uh, it was a 01:38:57.329 --> 01:39:01.680 great plan. And he hired me in August, and then 01:39:01.680 --> 01:39:04.539 he unfortunately passed away in December of the 01:39:04.539 --> 01:39:09.079 same year. And I'd worked with him for the entire 01:39:09.079 --> 01:39:13.960 time he had been at Pinwell and then Clarion 01:39:13.960 --> 01:39:17.600 after the sale. And so we had worked together 01:39:17.600 --> 01:39:23.479 very close for those 20 plus years. And it was 01:39:23.479 --> 01:39:25.680 one of those where it was like, tag, you're it. 01:39:26.510 --> 01:39:30.850 And so it started out, I was editor -in -chief 01:39:30.850 --> 01:39:33.170 of fire engineering and then the education director 01:39:33.170 --> 01:39:37.890 of FDIC. And then we had a scramble from December 01:39:37.890 --> 01:39:41.369 to be ready for April opening ceremonies, new 01:39:41.369 --> 01:39:44.689 thing, because Bobby already had his deal already 01:39:44.689 --> 01:39:47.329 mapped out of what he was going to do. So we 01:39:47.329 --> 01:39:51.229 got through that year, which was a blur. And 01:39:51.229 --> 01:39:55.630 then I actually got... promoted inside the company 01:39:55.630 --> 01:40:00.489 to vice president of education and sort of the 01:40:00.489 --> 01:40:04.149 group editor. So I had all the brands. So it 01:40:04.149 --> 01:40:08.770 wasn't just fire engineering. It was gyms, firefighter 01:40:08.770 --> 01:40:12.710 nation and fire apparatus. And over the last 01:40:12.710 --> 01:40:18.949 couple of years, we've added some folks and I've 01:40:18.949 --> 01:40:22.039 actually got editors now for for each of the 01:40:22.039 --> 01:40:25.920 brands where we only had fire apparatus covered 01:40:25.920 --> 01:40:30.979 fully. And we had a web editor for gyms, and 01:40:30.979 --> 01:40:35.039 then we brought on an editor, a development editor 01:40:35.039 --> 01:40:38.680 for gyms. We brought on and rebranded Firefighter 01:40:38.680 --> 01:40:41.739 Nation to just deal with mental health, physical 01:40:41.739 --> 01:40:46.920 wellness, and culture, anything culture -related, 01:40:47.100 --> 01:40:52.149 lifestyle, firefighter finances. And that went 01:40:52.149 --> 01:40:56.390 from just an old blog platform to being its own 01:40:56.390 --> 01:41:00.970 identity and brand now with Stephanie White. 01:41:01.109 --> 01:41:04.670 And actually, I just got her full time day before 01:41:04.670 --> 01:41:07.470 yesterday. So I've got a full time editor there. 01:41:07.630 --> 01:41:11.029 And so that mission's really, really growing. 01:41:11.529 --> 01:41:15.550 But yeah, it's been a hell of a learning curve, 01:41:15.789 --> 01:41:19.090 kind of learning the corporate side of the world. 01:41:20.560 --> 01:41:24.699 still staying true to the educational piece and, 01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:28.619 and FDIC. And it's really, it's really two, two 01:41:28.619 --> 01:41:31.399 jobs, but like everywhere, it's like, you know, 01:41:31.399 --> 01:41:34.960 we're, we're all, we're short staff too. So having 01:41:34.960 --> 01:41:37.899 FDIC and having all the media brands is a lot, 01:41:38.039 --> 01:41:43.140 but the FDIC side, you know, we got a great team 01:41:43.140 --> 01:41:48.000 with our advisory board and we have more submissions 01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:53.220 than ever coming in. Um, I think, uh, I remember 01:41:53.220 --> 01:41:56.319 five, six years ago, we'd have about 800 submissions 01:41:56.319 --> 01:41:59.880 and then they went to a thousand and then we 01:41:59.880 --> 01:42:04.560 were like 1170 this year. And, uh, it was kind 01:42:04.560 --> 01:42:07.359 of like that recruiting thing. It's like, I think 01:42:07.359 --> 01:42:09.619 we've really created a lot of excitement around 01:42:09.619 --> 01:42:13.560 FDIC. We've added a lot of, uh, hands -on training 01:42:13.560 --> 01:42:19.029 sessions for this coming year. Last year, we 01:42:19.029 --> 01:42:22.369 branched out from Monday, Tuesday only for pre 01:42:22.369 --> 01:42:26.010 -con and hands -on to we did hands -on all week 01:42:26.010 --> 01:42:28.789 at a limited capacity. And we're going to do 01:42:28.789 --> 01:42:31.069 even more. We're going to do live fire training 01:42:31.069 --> 01:42:34.630 into the week now. So there'll be live fire Monday, 01:42:34.890 --> 01:42:38.850 Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. So 01:42:38.850 --> 01:42:43.159 there'll be students being bussed out. We've 01:42:43.159 --> 01:42:46.500 increased the amount of hands -on training positions. 01:42:46.520 --> 01:42:49.279 So when I say position, that's an individual 01:42:49.279 --> 01:42:55.779 taking one class. In 2026, from three years ago, 01:42:55.859 --> 01:42:58.420 we will have increased those positions by over 01:42:58.420 --> 01:43:02.920 2 ,000 positions, getting close to three, and 01:43:02.920 --> 01:43:05.579 they all are selling out. So that tells you the 01:43:05.579 --> 01:43:09.260 demand for hands -on training. And obviously, 01:43:09.420 --> 01:43:14.699 live fire sells out. very quick. The registration 01:43:14.699 --> 01:43:17.920 opens earlier and earlier every year, so it's 01:43:17.920 --> 01:43:24.560 opening the first week of October, and the show's 01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:28.920 big. We got a few new things planned. One, we 01:43:28.920 --> 01:43:31.560 dropped the second day of opening ceremonies, 01:43:31.800 --> 01:43:35.239 and that was a decision I made because I wanted 01:43:35.239 --> 01:43:39.420 to add a full four hours of classrooms. which 01:43:39.420 --> 01:43:43.399 allowed me another 20, 30 classes that I could 01:43:43.399 --> 01:43:46.520 use in that time. And I think, you know, I love 01:43:46.520 --> 01:43:49.739 the pageantry of open ceremonies and the bagpipes 01:43:49.739 --> 01:43:52.260 and the keynotes, but I didn't think it made 01:43:52.260 --> 01:43:56.859 sense to do it twice. And I think people come 01:43:56.859 --> 01:44:00.300 there for the training. They do come there and 01:44:00.300 --> 01:44:02.340 they enjoy the opening ceremonies, but I think 01:44:02.340 --> 01:44:05.159 that we're better using that four -hour block. 01:44:06.489 --> 01:44:09.310 with class classes and hands -on and all that 01:44:09.310 --> 01:44:12.369 so we made that shift so we'll go back to a two 01:44:12.369 --> 01:44:15.229 -hour opening instead of an hour and a half and 01:44:15.229 --> 01:44:17.729 still try to get everything in the awards and 01:44:17.729 --> 01:44:20.250 all that and then i'm putting in a new thing 01:44:20.250 --> 01:44:24.090 in 2026 called hits and it's it's high intensity 01:44:24.090 --> 01:44:28.829 training sessions and uh there'll be four sessions 01:44:28.829 --> 01:44:32.270 that are four hours each and in a four hour session 01:44:32.270 --> 01:44:37.420 you will see 10 speakers Instead of the hour 01:44:37.420 --> 01:44:41.180 45 format where you would get two speakers in 01:44:41.180 --> 01:44:43.439 that same time frame, you're going to be able 01:44:43.439 --> 01:44:47.140 to go into this room. It'll be super high energy 01:44:47.140 --> 01:44:51.260 and it'll be short 20 minute educational sections. 01:44:51.520 --> 01:44:55.260 And each section will have tactics. It'll have 01:44:55.260 --> 01:44:59.479 leadership. It'll have mental health and it'll 01:44:59.479 --> 01:45:02.279 have nutrition. And so we're hitting all four 01:45:02.279 --> 01:45:06.789 of those topics in a four hour session. I think 01:45:06.789 --> 01:45:10.590 it's going to be a good format. I think the younger 01:45:10.590 --> 01:45:15.329 people digest the 20 -minute sessions a lot more. 01:45:15.729 --> 01:45:19.069 They enjoy it a lot more. If you've got ADHD 01:45:19.069 --> 01:45:22.270 or ADD, it's a session for you because we'll 01:45:22.270 --> 01:45:25.970 have a lot of music and a lot of good intros, 01:45:25.970 --> 01:45:29.310 but it's going to be a fun room, but still it's 01:45:29.310 --> 01:45:33.560 educational. It'll be a little entertainment, 01:45:33.720 --> 01:45:38.439 a little education. I've actually got an instructor 01:45:38.439 --> 01:45:42.439 comedian who will be in each session to kind 01:45:42.439 --> 01:45:45.560 of break up the middle, have a little humor there 01:45:45.560 --> 01:45:47.260 in the middle, but he'll still have a lesson 01:45:47.260 --> 01:45:51.739 as well. So that's going to be fun. And then 01:45:51.739 --> 01:45:55.279 that live fire through the week is a huge challenge 01:45:55.279 --> 01:46:02.479 for our team. attendees want more live fire so 01:46:02.479 --> 01:46:04.539 that's the only way i could give it to them because 01:46:04.539 --> 01:46:07.319 i'm limited on the number of breathing apparatus 01:46:07.319 --> 01:46:10.460 i have and so the only way to do more is to spread 01:46:10.460 --> 01:46:15.619 it out among more days so well it makes a lot 01:46:15.619 --> 01:46:17.859 of sense and it circles around again to like 01:46:17.859 --> 01:46:20.039 you said that balance between classroom education 01:46:20.039 --> 01:46:22.340 and real hands -on training i think that's what 01:46:22.340 --> 01:46:25.560 the uh orlando fired uh conference did very well 01:46:25.560 --> 01:46:30.010 was i did like eric wheaton's um uh oh my goodness 01:46:30.010 --> 01:46:33.550 vent class um vent can confidence yeah no not 01:46:33.550 --> 01:46:36.069 the cam the event and a search yeah oh yeah yeah 01:46:36.069 --> 01:46:39.569 amazing amazing class um this is kind of right 01:46:39.569 --> 01:46:41.689 the tail end of my career before i transitioned 01:46:41.689 --> 01:46:44.670 out to do this fully but um but yeah but then 01:46:44.670 --> 01:46:46.850 they had i think they had the 10 for 10 they 01:46:46.850 --> 01:46:49.909 called it there where it was short you know um 01:46:49.909 --> 01:46:52.270 presentations and i think that's the problem 01:46:52.270 --> 01:46:54.810 is sometimes people turn a 10 at 10 minute presentation 01:46:54.810 --> 01:46:57.680 into two hours and kind of just hitting the same 01:46:57.680 --> 01:47:00.140 thing over and over again so some might take 01:47:00.140 --> 01:47:03.020 a long time to really you know extrapolate and 01:47:03.020 --> 01:47:05.579 some may well be a perfect fit for a 10 or 20 01:47:05.579 --> 01:47:09.699 minute class yeah it's going to be fun and it's 01:47:09.699 --> 01:47:13.699 uh like i said it'll be high energy um we're 01:47:13.699 --> 01:47:15.720 going to set it up and make it look like a theater 01:47:15.720 --> 01:47:19.239 type setting um which i you know kind of took 01:47:19.239 --> 01:47:23.300 from some of these smaller I love when somebody 01:47:23.300 --> 01:47:27.520 has a conference in an old, small town, but they 01:47:27.520 --> 01:47:30.340 have the old theater, you know, and you just 01:47:30.340 --> 01:47:35.619 have that just gorgeous architecture, the uplighting 01:47:35.619 --> 01:47:38.319 on the sides and the big stage. So we're going 01:47:38.319 --> 01:47:41.420 to recreate that. We won't be able to totally 01:47:41.420 --> 01:47:43.760 recreate it with the sloped floor and all that, 01:47:43.779 --> 01:47:45.539 but we're going to kind of recreate that feel 01:47:45.539 --> 01:47:48.420 in that room. So it kind of gives that intimate, 01:47:48.500 --> 01:47:53.770 small theater. type setting. And, uh, it's going 01:47:53.770 --> 01:47:56.409 to be a lot of, uh, a lot of fun, but, uh, but 01:47:56.409 --> 01:48:00.569 educational as well. And then we've got tons 01:48:00.569 --> 01:48:02.750 of stuff in Lucas oil. Now we've been, we've 01:48:02.750 --> 01:48:05.970 sort of transitioned that area into very interactive. 01:48:06.229 --> 01:48:08.869 So we, we created the drill yard a couple of 01:48:08.869 --> 01:48:11.869 years ago and we've totally redone all of our 01:48:11.869 --> 01:48:15.729 EMS, uh, education, bringing in some really big 01:48:15.729 --> 01:48:22.090 names in the EMS education and, um, Where we 01:48:22.090 --> 01:48:24.310 have the drill yard and we have a couple of burn 01:48:24.310 --> 01:48:27.109 buildings and a tower and some other props and 01:48:27.109 --> 01:48:29.930 folks are able to actually do evolutions and 01:48:29.930 --> 01:48:32.529 do training in those areas. We're going to do 01:48:32.529 --> 01:48:35.109 that for the EMS section, too. It'll be a continuation. 01:48:35.289 --> 01:48:38.149 So you're going to see some we're calling it 01:48:38.149 --> 01:48:41.850 Sim City. And so there'll be all these interactive 01:48:41.850 --> 01:48:47.329 simulations and role play. You know, there may 01:48:47.329 --> 01:48:51.229 be a. an accident, a vehicle accident set up 01:48:51.229 --> 01:48:53.750 with an upside down car, but a live victim in 01:48:53.750 --> 01:48:57.430 it. And the live victim may have props that like, 01:48:57.489 --> 01:48:59.789 you know, attached to your arm where you can 01:48:59.789 --> 01:49:04.229 start an IV and, uh, and it'd be very, very interactive. 01:49:04.470 --> 01:49:08.529 Um, so, uh, try to bring that hands -on element 01:49:08.529 --> 01:49:11.569 to the EMS side as well with the, with the gyms, 01:49:11.590 --> 01:49:14.869 uh, formatting. And then we've got summits. Uh, 01:49:15.050 --> 01:49:18.760 we've got industrial fire summit we've got aircraft 01:49:18.760 --> 01:49:26.039 uh fire summit we've got metro um metro officers 01:49:26.039 --> 01:49:33.000 we've got um the ems summit and gosh i think 01:49:33.000 --> 01:49:35.899 i missed oh a technology summit that is all dealing 01:49:35.899 --> 01:49:39.600 with like the newest latest technology and all 01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:42.960 those are happening some of them have demo um, 01:49:42.960 --> 01:49:45.600 components to them and speakers, but that's, 01:49:45.600 --> 01:49:48.520 that's an area where we're really growing and, 01:49:48.579 --> 01:49:51.659 uh, continuing to add more and more of those, 01:49:51.840 --> 01:49:54.539 uh, summits that are niche summits. Those are 01:49:54.539 --> 01:49:58.180 like a hundred, 150 people, you know, in, in 01:49:58.180 --> 01:50:01.899 that group, but it's peer to peer, peer education, 01:50:02.279 --> 01:50:04.500 peer, they designed it all themselves. We just 01:50:04.500 --> 01:50:07.479 kind of give them the, the platform to meet and, 01:50:07.500 --> 01:50:10.180 uh, and assemble there. And then on top of that, 01:50:10.260 --> 01:50:13.449 we've got the air force. Education piece, they 01:50:13.449 --> 01:50:19.109 do their training there. We've got the DOD. We've 01:50:19.109 --> 01:50:21.930 got the North American training directors that 01:50:21.930 --> 01:50:26.930 come. We've got the fire academy alumni meets 01:50:26.930 --> 01:50:30.970 there. It's all encompassing. I mean, I always 01:50:30.970 --> 01:50:33.770 say it's where the entire fire service comes 01:50:33.770 --> 01:50:38.170 together. Manufacturing, tactics. Education, 01:50:38.310 --> 01:50:41.649 everything is in that one place. And we went 01:50:41.649 --> 01:50:47.050 over 37 ,000 last year. And we can't wait for 01:50:47.050 --> 01:50:49.609 the new hotel to open because we need more room. 01:50:50.130 --> 01:50:53.489 And we got another, we won't be open in 26, but 01:50:53.489 --> 01:50:56.970 in 27, we'll have a new hotel and some more ballrooms 01:50:56.970 --> 01:51:00.590 and some more room to even add some more stuff. 01:51:00.689 --> 01:51:05.800 So we're constantly reinventing ourselves. Looking 01:51:05.800 --> 01:51:08.279 for new opportunities, new content delivery. 01:51:10.600 --> 01:51:14.880 And also conscious with one of the reasons we 01:51:14.880 --> 01:51:18.060 did the drill yard is that we know how expensive 01:51:18.060 --> 01:51:20.279 it is. And of course, a lot of that's out of 01:51:20.279 --> 01:51:23.140 our control. That's hotel and travel and some 01:51:23.140 --> 01:51:26.100 of that stuff. But, you know, we had some people 01:51:26.100 --> 01:51:28.100 that said, you know, it's just too expensive 01:51:28.100 --> 01:51:32.939 and all. And so we've created training opportunities 01:51:32.939 --> 01:51:38.569 for people. that just buy a exhibit pass. And 01:51:38.569 --> 01:51:41.250 so if you're in the exhibit hall, there's education 01:51:41.250 --> 01:51:44.649 going on. You're able to participate in, in some 01:51:44.649 --> 01:51:47.710 of that. Now it's not to the level of a hands 01:51:47.710 --> 01:51:51.989 -on live fire class on Monday, Tuesday or offsite 01:51:51.989 --> 01:51:55.029 type deal, but it's still an opportunity to get 01:51:55.029 --> 01:51:58.550 some hands -on, um, training with equipment. 01:51:59.050 --> 01:52:02.789 So try to think of everything, man. That's a 01:52:02.789 --> 01:52:05.930 lot. Sounds amazing. It really does. Speaking 01:52:05.930 --> 01:52:10.250 of the exhibit hall, what are some of the innovations 01:52:10.250 --> 01:52:12.409 that you're excited about on the technical side? 01:52:12.510 --> 01:52:14.289 I've made this comment many times. I don't know 01:52:14.289 --> 01:52:15.609 if you can see it from my shoulder there. There's 01:52:15.609 --> 01:52:18.729 the blueprint for the American Fire Helmet. I 01:52:18.729 --> 01:52:23.130 think it's dated 1937. So I believe that maybe 01:52:23.130 --> 01:52:25.789 there's some possibility for innovation when 01:52:25.789 --> 01:52:27.550 it comes to our headwear in the fire service. 01:52:27.630 --> 01:52:30.090 I always kind of chuckle when I see people presenting 01:52:30.090 --> 01:52:33.239 the same helmet as the latest and greatest. That 01:52:33.239 --> 01:52:35.520 aside, there's obviously a lot of areas, drones 01:52:35.520 --> 01:52:38.380 and other areas that are becoming extremely exciting. 01:52:38.640 --> 01:52:42.140 So what technology wise are you seeing, you know, 01:52:42.140 --> 01:52:45.159 protective equipment, you know, anything that's 01:52:45.159 --> 01:52:48.039 exciting you as far as the next kind of phase 01:52:48.039 --> 01:52:50.920 in the fire service? Actually just had a call 01:52:50.920 --> 01:52:54.979 this week about a new helmet technology that 01:52:54.979 --> 01:52:59.220 really makes the helmet super light. And it was 01:52:59.220 --> 01:53:04.000 incorporating some hard hat. uh, technology into, 01:53:04.119 --> 01:53:07.779 to fire helmet. Um, probably one of the biggest 01:53:07.779 --> 01:53:11.479 push, like you said, is electronics is, uh, tracking 01:53:11.479 --> 01:53:16.319 accountability, um, in any of the wearable type, 01:53:16.439 --> 01:53:21.079 um, stuff. Uh, we just did a, uh, we just did 01:53:21.079 --> 01:53:25.840 a piece on, uh, there's a wearable that, um, 01:53:25.960 --> 01:53:28.899 wakes you up instead of the horn or whatever 01:53:28.899 --> 01:53:32.800 it vibrates. And is that easy to learn? I can't 01:53:32.800 --> 01:53:34.619 remember what the name of it was, but there's 01:53:34.619 --> 01:53:37.880 one that'll shake the bed. There's one that you 01:53:37.880 --> 01:53:43.340 wear on your wrist. So there's tons of that stuff. 01:53:45.399 --> 01:53:50.340 Radios are incorporated into cell phones now. 01:53:50.579 --> 01:53:54.640 And so that's interesting. And these are like 01:53:54.640 --> 01:53:58.260 military grade, you know, intrinsically safe 01:53:58.260 --> 01:54:02.760 cell phones that can. not only communicate over 01:54:02.760 --> 01:54:05.340 the radio frequency, but also keep your location 01:54:05.340 --> 01:54:09.260 and they can keep your location horizontal and 01:54:09.260 --> 01:54:13.140 vertical. Now, so as you're getting smart cities 01:54:13.140 --> 01:54:15.880 and more floor plans, you're seeing a lot of 01:54:15.880 --> 01:54:20.579 integration into like the command software and 01:54:20.579 --> 01:54:24.560 then the city infrastructure or Google Maps or 01:54:24.560 --> 01:54:29.779 Google, you know, 3D. That kind of stuff. So 01:54:29.779 --> 01:54:34.539 definitely a lot on the technology. Some some 01:54:34.539 --> 01:54:38.659 of the drones have lift capabilities. You know, 01:54:38.659 --> 01:54:46.640 last year we had the. The. Call it a drone, it's 01:54:46.640 --> 01:54:49.880 really an airplane, but it was, you know, a personnel 01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:53.520 delivery vehicle that. that doesn't require a 01:54:53.520 --> 01:54:56.460 pilot's license. And so like for search and rescue, 01:54:56.560 --> 01:54:59.500 you could get in this thing. It almost looks 01:54:59.500 --> 01:55:04.739 like one of those old enclosed bicycle solar 01:55:04.739 --> 01:55:07.600 deals that they used to have. It's like you get 01:55:07.600 --> 01:55:10.520 in it and it's a, it's a drone. I mean, it's 01:55:10.520 --> 01:55:15.020 four propellers and, and off you go. And it's 01:55:15.020 --> 01:55:17.159 just a one person vehicle that can, you know, 01:55:17.180 --> 01:55:21.720 you can deliver a rescuer. Somewhere in the woods 01:55:21.720 --> 01:55:26.680 or are a long ways away fast. So things like 01:55:26.680 --> 01:55:30.640 that are there. There's drone technology that 01:55:30.640 --> 01:55:34.279 delivers defibrillators to the public. You know, 01:55:34.279 --> 01:55:36.680 if you call 911, that's been around for a few 01:55:36.680 --> 01:55:41.859 years, but it's gaining popularity. Just tons 01:55:41.859 --> 01:55:47.079 of tracking, tracking your vital signs and temperature 01:55:47.079 --> 01:55:52.689 upgrades. wearable shirts and things that can 01:55:52.689 --> 01:55:57.369 transfer information back to a database that 01:55:57.369 --> 01:56:01.489 can alert command if, you know, temperature gets 01:56:01.489 --> 01:56:04.170 over a certain amount or your pulse rate gets 01:56:04.170 --> 01:56:06.449 over a certain amount. I always feared as an 01:56:06.449 --> 01:56:09.250 incident commander, information overload. And 01:56:09.250 --> 01:56:11.409 so I think most of the companies realize that. 01:56:11.550 --> 01:56:13.529 And these are things that run in the background 01:56:13.529 --> 01:56:16.210 and then alert you, you know, when there's a 01:56:16.210 --> 01:56:23.619 problem. That's cool. Some minor new technology 01:56:23.619 --> 01:56:29.000 is out there. Obviously, PFAS being a big issue, 01:56:29.159 --> 01:56:36.199 there's a lot of changes in gear. And those are 01:56:36.199 --> 01:56:38.659 the biggest ones that I'm familiar with off the 01:56:38.659 --> 01:56:40.840 top of my head. There are some remote vehicle, 01:56:40.960 --> 01:56:45.239 like robot type things similar to the Bomb Squad. 01:56:46.119 --> 01:56:48.199 deals that can actually have a hose attached 01:56:48.199 --> 01:56:52.220 to it and go in and deliver water to you know 01:56:52.220 --> 01:56:56.819 like an industrial fire or a big warehouse fire 01:56:56.819 --> 01:57:00.239 or something crazy like that that you need that 01:57:00.239 --> 01:57:04.140 access but uh technology's going man i think 01:57:04.140 --> 01:57:06.060 the biggest thing is an information collection 01:57:06.060 --> 01:57:08.939 the amount of data that's out there that can 01:57:08.939 --> 01:57:14.060 be processed um nobody's in Nobody has invented 01:57:14.060 --> 01:57:17.739 my dream invention yet, but I'm still waiting 01:57:17.739 --> 01:57:20.579 on it. That'll be when we can pull up on the 01:57:20.579 --> 01:57:25.600 scene and open a pouch of about 100 marble -sized 01:57:25.600 --> 01:57:29.779 drones and robots, and we throw them in the front 01:57:29.779 --> 01:57:33.159 door, and they search the house in about 15 seconds 01:57:33.159 --> 01:57:36.420 and feed us data back to our face piece and tell 01:57:36.420 --> 01:57:39.859 us exactly where to go to the victim. Well, I'm 01:57:39.859 --> 01:57:42.279 waiting on that. That'd be amazing. I've always 01:57:42.279 --> 01:57:45.640 said this is what it is. It's coming. Two innovations 01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:48.340 would be a radio that works in an elevator and 01:57:48.340 --> 01:57:50.319 gloves that you can actually tie a knot with. 01:57:50.779 --> 01:57:53.739 Yeah. We're still wearing these pillows on our 01:57:53.739 --> 01:57:57.119 hands. Yeah. I had Richard Browning on the show, 01:57:57.199 --> 01:57:59.859 who's the English inventor of that kind of jet 01:57:59.859 --> 01:58:02.560 pack. And he's holding one in each hand. But 01:58:02.560 --> 01:58:05.060 they used it for a paramedic, kind of like a 01:58:05.060 --> 01:58:07.340 wilderness rescue model, where the medic would 01:58:07.340 --> 01:58:10.619 fly with an EMS bag on his back or her back. 01:58:11.039 --> 01:58:13.399 fly up this mountain to, you know, this, this 01:58:13.399 --> 01:58:16.300 hiker or whatever it was, um, and then could 01:58:16.300 --> 01:58:18.619 do initial care. And then what he was saying 01:58:18.619 --> 01:58:21.640 is because again, of FDA regulations or the same 01:58:21.640 --> 01:58:25.899 person in the UK, um, you can't actually fly 01:58:25.899 --> 01:58:28.340 down with the patient, but a drone could then 01:58:28.340 --> 01:58:31.600 take the stretcher down to the rig, to the ambulance, 01:58:31.640 --> 01:58:34.569 to the rescue. So, I mean, that was another really 01:58:34.569 --> 01:58:36.409 exciting thing, whether you're in the enclosed 01:58:36.409 --> 01:58:38.510 thing you're talking about or simply like a jet 01:58:38.510 --> 01:58:40.789 pack where you're piloting it, you go to the 01:58:40.789 --> 01:58:43.949 person, you initiate care, you package them, 01:58:43.970 --> 01:58:46.609 you send them down to the receiving crew and 01:58:46.609 --> 01:58:49.609 then off they go. So it's amazing the potential 01:58:49.609 --> 01:58:52.720 where that can. factor in but obviously i don't 01:58:52.720 --> 01:58:55.000 think there's any any danger of them removing 01:58:55.000 --> 01:58:57.720 humans but like you said if you know exactly 01:58:57.720 --> 01:58:59.579 where a person is on a primary and you're not 01:58:59.579 --> 01:59:02.119 wasting time going to you know over fire where 01:59:02.119 --> 01:59:04.920 you could fall through the roof or you know searching 01:59:04.920 --> 01:59:07.380 rooms that are completely empty i mean that whether 01:59:07.380 --> 01:59:10.020 that's a bunch of marvel -sized drones or whatever 01:59:10.020 --> 01:59:12.060 that ends up looking like you know technology 01:59:12.060 --> 01:59:14.420 to see through walls that would be a phenomenal 01:59:14.420 --> 01:59:16.739 thing then the human beings go and actually pull 01:59:16.739 --> 01:59:21.189 the person out yep there's a new uh There's a 01:59:21.189 --> 01:59:25.989 new technology that is a couple of years old, 01:59:26.029 --> 01:59:29.170 but some departments are actually testing it 01:59:29.170 --> 01:59:34.789 now, like in the field and through your face 01:59:34.789 --> 01:59:41.750 piece. It's thermal imaging, but it draws in. 01:59:42.439 --> 01:59:45.180 all the gaps that you can't see so like it'll 01:59:45.180 --> 01:59:48.760 draw all the straight lines and uh show outlines 01:59:48.760 --> 01:59:51.899 of things so it gives you a better picture of 01:59:51.899 --> 01:59:54.539 what you're looking at and it's great for uh 01:59:54.539 --> 01:59:57.220 navigating you know through a building shows 01:59:57.220 --> 02:00:00.380 you the stairs and all that stuff so that's another 02:00:00.380 --> 02:00:03.539 one that's that's that's gone from prototype 02:00:03.539 --> 02:00:06.300 to actually being in some departments right now 02:00:06.300 --> 02:00:10.970 um So that's cool. And then you've got extinguishing 02:00:10.970 --> 02:00:12.930 agents are changing, you know, there's stuff 02:00:12.930 --> 02:00:17.670 for EV fires and, uh, you know, there's a lot 02:00:17.670 --> 02:00:20.989 of new products out there, some great and some 02:00:20.989 --> 02:00:24.770 not so great, but, but they're out there and, 02:00:24.869 --> 02:00:27.270 uh, you know, they're experimenting and going 02:00:27.270 --> 02:00:31.770 through testing and, um, you know, some people, 02:00:31.770 --> 02:00:33.850 some people get a little upset at some of the 02:00:33.850 --> 02:00:35.710 ones that aren't so great, but always look at 02:00:35.710 --> 02:00:38.439 it as it's evolution. you know it's like maybe 02:00:38.439 --> 02:00:41.399 it's not so great right now but it's the first 02:00:41.399 --> 02:00:45.060 step in developing the thing that will be great 02:00:45.060 --> 02:00:49.199 you know yeah absolutely just on that topic before 02:00:49.199 --> 02:00:50.819 we kind of transition i got one more area i want 02:00:50.819 --> 02:00:52.619 to throw at you quickly but just before we do 02:00:52.619 --> 02:00:55.859 i've had a few conversations now about pfas and 02:00:55.859 --> 02:00:58.420 i think the danger of the pfas conversation is 02:00:58.420 --> 02:01:00.979 again we ignore all the other elements of the 02:01:00.979 --> 02:01:03.199 carcinogenic including shift work which is the 02:01:03.199 --> 02:01:07.579 biggest one And I've actually got a company that 02:01:07.579 --> 02:01:09.340 I'm working with at the moment that are developing 02:01:09.340 --> 02:01:12.600 a probiotic that will pull PFAS from a body. 02:01:12.720 --> 02:01:15.460 And if that proves that it works in the human 02:01:15.460 --> 02:01:16.880 trials, I think that's going to be revolutionary 02:01:16.880 --> 02:01:19.699 for everyone, not just the firefighters. But 02:01:19.699 --> 02:01:23.659 what I'm hearing is that some of these companies 02:01:23.659 --> 02:01:27.619 are developing supposedly PFAS -free gear. Either 02:01:27.619 --> 02:01:30.539 A, they're finding PFAS in it, which is not good, 02:01:30.619 --> 02:01:33.810 or B... Because of the changing in technology, 02:01:34.090 --> 02:01:36.810 it's not providing the same kind of safety and 02:01:36.810 --> 02:01:39.529 fires than the old gear did. So what are you 02:01:39.529 --> 02:01:41.909 seeing in that whole realm at the moment? Yeah, 02:01:41.989 --> 02:01:44.470 there's always trade -offs. The biggest thing 02:01:44.470 --> 02:01:50.750 is the chemicals that used the PFAS were the 02:01:50.750 --> 02:01:59.279 repellents that kept the moisture. Yeah. It mainly 02:01:59.279 --> 02:02:02.300 like it was, if you got diesel fuel spilled on 02:02:02.300 --> 02:02:04.579 you, it wouldn't absorb, you know, it would, 02:02:04.640 --> 02:02:06.979 it would repel. It made it like a water, like 02:02:06.979 --> 02:02:09.800 a waterproofing type thing. That's why it's in 02:02:09.800 --> 02:02:13.020 clothes. That's why it's in raincoats. It's in 02:02:13.020 --> 02:02:15.380 everything. I mean, it's in water bottles, it's 02:02:15.380 --> 02:02:20.279 everywhere. So, uh, um, uh, in the, in the, uh, 02:02:20.859 --> 02:02:23.960 The foam industry, obviously, you know, was full 02:02:23.960 --> 02:02:27.199 of it. So they were able to get rid of the foam. 02:02:27.319 --> 02:02:29.479 And then they were going through and deconing 02:02:29.479 --> 02:02:32.779 all the crash trucks and all that. And what was 02:02:32.779 --> 02:02:38.720 interesting is the level to pass the decon thing 02:02:38.720 --> 02:02:43.460 was so low that hardly anybody could meet it 02:02:43.460 --> 02:02:45.600 because there was more than that in the air. 02:02:46.920 --> 02:02:50.060 So you go through, you know, 40, $50 ,000 to 02:02:50.060 --> 02:02:53.460 decon this truck and then you take a test and, 02:02:53.560 --> 02:02:56.699 and it's still there because it's in the water. 02:02:56.819 --> 02:03:00.279 It's, you know, you can't get away from it. So, 02:03:00.420 --> 02:03:03.159 yeah, it's, it's interesting. I think there was, 02:03:03.159 --> 02:03:05.319 there was some studies that showed the dust in 02:03:05.319 --> 02:03:08.880 the fire stations had a higher level than a regular 02:03:08.880 --> 02:03:14.260 place of business. But again, I always talk about 02:03:14.260 --> 02:03:16.859 the extremes. Anything we can do to make it better 02:03:16.859 --> 02:03:23.500 is good. But somebody who eats a bag of microwave 02:03:23.500 --> 02:03:27.399 popcorn every day has a higher level of PFAS 02:03:27.399 --> 02:03:33.819 in their system than anything else. So you're 02:03:33.819 --> 02:03:37.500 not going to totally remove it from your life. 02:03:37.659 --> 02:03:42.300 But if you can reduce your exposure to it. then 02:03:42.300 --> 02:03:44.319 I think that's good. Get it out of the air, the 02:03:44.319 --> 02:03:47.039 fire stations, do the best you can. But there's 02:03:47.039 --> 02:03:49.560 going to be trade -offs, and the trade -off is 02:03:49.560 --> 02:03:52.699 going to be that your gear is not going to hold 02:03:52.699 --> 02:03:56.460 up as well. It'll still protect you, but it's 02:03:56.460 --> 02:04:01.079 not going to last three or four years. It's going 02:04:01.079 --> 02:04:06.619 to be frazzled and happen to be replaced more 02:04:06.619 --> 02:04:11.779 often than it would be if it had it in it. There'll 02:04:11.779 --> 02:04:13.680 be something else come along. I actually saw 02:04:13.680 --> 02:04:18.720 a article posted where a, I believe it's a Chinese 02:04:18.720 --> 02:04:21.859 company has come up with a new fabric that is 02:04:21.859 --> 02:04:27.220 incredibly temperature resistant and is super, 02:04:27.279 --> 02:04:30.180 super light. So there's already companies out 02:04:30.180 --> 02:04:34.659 there working on things and something will come 02:04:34.659 --> 02:04:39.250 along that'll shore it up. I guess for now, like 02:04:39.250 --> 02:04:43.909 as much exposure as we can get away from, the 02:04:43.909 --> 02:04:47.789 better. But again, back to education and knowing 02:04:47.789 --> 02:04:52.810 the whole problem is like, don't jumping down 02:04:52.810 --> 02:04:56.130 on your department because you got PFAS gear 02:04:56.130 --> 02:04:58.189 and then be eating a bag of microwave popcorn 02:04:58.189 --> 02:05:04.479 every day. Yeah, exactly. It's a bigger problem 02:05:04.479 --> 02:05:08.159 than just turnout gear. It's a problem for everybody. 02:05:09.180 --> 02:05:12.939 And we may have a higher level because of our 02:05:12.939 --> 02:05:16.600 gear, but we're not going to totally eradicate 02:05:16.600 --> 02:05:21.420 it from our diet and system. I did blood work 02:05:21.420 --> 02:05:23.840 this company paid for. And this company has been 02:05:23.840 --> 02:05:25.979 very, very clear. Like you also need to find 02:05:25.979 --> 02:05:27.579 out what the levels are in your local drinking 02:05:27.579 --> 02:05:29.840 water. So they're not trying to scaremonger on 02:05:29.840 --> 02:05:33.180 fire alone by any means. But mine was like off 02:05:33.180 --> 02:05:34.939 the charts. And my blood work is always great 02:05:34.939 --> 02:05:37.680 in pretty much every area. But PFAS, it was like, 02:05:37.699 --> 02:05:40.609 you know. I needed an extra screen to see where 02:05:40.609 --> 02:05:42.949 it actually landed. It was so bad. But this is 02:05:42.949 --> 02:05:44.649 kind of like with the shift work. It's like, 02:05:44.670 --> 02:05:47.109 well, we have to be awake for 24 hours. We have 02:05:47.109 --> 02:05:49.609 to be awake at night. That is a truth. So how 02:05:49.609 --> 02:05:52.310 can we adapt? And we put a 24 -hour period extra 02:05:52.310 --> 02:05:55.470 in between, 24 -72, and mitigate some of the 02:05:55.470 --> 02:05:58.430 issues. If there's PFAS in our AFFF and our gear. 02:05:59.050 --> 02:06:01.130 Well, then how can we start working on that? 02:06:01.210 --> 02:06:03.329 And can we look at the nonstick pans in the station? 02:06:03.409 --> 02:06:05.630 And, you know, as you said, maybe make, you know, 02:06:05.670 --> 02:06:08.489 popcorn the old way. And so it's not that, you 02:06:08.489 --> 02:06:11.310 know. it's not all or nothing with this conversation 02:06:11.310 --> 02:06:13.229 but it's like right what can we address what 02:06:13.229 --> 02:06:15.550 can we minimize and then again now if the fire 02:06:15.550 --> 02:06:18.529 service has this conversation can we be a beacon 02:06:18.529 --> 02:06:20.949 of light for the rest of the country and then 02:06:20.949 --> 02:06:22.909 starting to understand as you said waterproof 02:06:22.909 --> 02:06:25.930 gear and you know the the packaging for our food 02:06:25.930 --> 02:06:28.810 and our drinks and then use this as a positive 02:06:28.810 --> 02:06:31.890 mission to then start eradicating this because 02:06:31.890 --> 02:06:34.069 i mean the origin story i had robbed a lot of 02:06:34.069 --> 02:06:37.170 the show was you know corporate discuss you know 02:06:37.170 --> 02:06:39.859 disgusting corporate actions and hiding the element 02:06:39.859 --> 02:06:41.479 of this and the fact that it poisoned pretty 02:06:41.479 --> 02:06:43.960 much the whole planet so as you said it's there 02:06:43.960 --> 02:06:46.260 but what can we do now to reverse this can we 02:06:46.260 --> 02:06:49.140 use probiotics to take it from our our gut can 02:06:49.140 --> 02:06:51.680 we you know reduce the exposures and then you 02:06:51.680 --> 02:06:53.300 know if it is in the fire service in certain 02:06:53.300 --> 02:06:55.880 areas what is the technology that will replace 02:06:55.880 --> 02:07:02.739 it down the road yep at least uh that was a pretty 02:07:02.739 --> 02:07:04.979 fast conversation with that one i think it went 02:07:04.979 --> 02:07:09.899 from first hearing about it to uh major change 02:07:09.899 --> 02:07:13.840 in less than five five years yeah so and i've 02:07:13.840 --> 02:07:17.180 talked to all the manufacturers of gear and and 02:07:17.180 --> 02:07:22.420 for the most part um all of the new stuff is 02:07:22.420 --> 02:07:26.640 highly highly reduced or not existent at all 02:07:26.640 --> 02:07:29.859 you know now there's still stuff out there but 02:07:29.859 --> 02:07:33.039 like in their in their plans you know for building 02:07:33.039 --> 02:07:36.359 new gear that um They've removed it. And then, 02:07:36.380 --> 02:07:37.840 you know, what's going to happen? The fire chiefs 02:07:37.840 --> 02:07:39.380 are going to go nuts because gear only lasts 02:07:39.380 --> 02:07:42.460 a year and they're used to it lasting 10 years. 02:07:43.180 --> 02:07:46.680 Yep. Yep, exactly. You know, that could be a 02:07:46.680 --> 02:07:48.840 change for exposure too. We talked about that 02:07:48.840 --> 02:07:53.220 in one of our many meetings that I've been a 02:07:53.220 --> 02:08:00.079 part of is what if gear becomes disposable? What 02:08:00.079 --> 02:08:02.460 if technology makes it to where the gear is disposable? 02:08:05.009 --> 02:08:07.750 Maybe parts of it are reusable, kind of like 02:08:07.750 --> 02:08:10.630 the rockets. Maybe there's parts of it that can 02:08:10.630 --> 02:08:15.109 be cleaned and reused, but there's other parts 02:08:15.109 --> 02:08:20.489 that you just throw away. Yeah. I mean, it's 02:08:20.489 --> 02:08:22.850 interesting when you look at other industries 02:08:22.850 --> 02:08:25.789 that are around, you know, nuclear, biohazards, 02:08:25.789 --> 02:08:28.010 all these things, and then you can put it side 02:08:28.010 --> 02:08:30.710 by side with us. It's pretty ridiculous the way 02:08:30.710 --> 02:08:33.409 that we certainly did it for a long time. And 02:08:33.409 --> 02:08:35.750 then we'll have that whole cultural issue. That's 02:08:35.750 --> 02:08:40.920 my coat. I've got to keep my coat. Even getting 02:08:40.920 --> 02:08:44.159 the two Swedish firefighters on behind the Skelefe 02:08:44.159 --> 02:08:47.680 model, the clean cab and all the pushback then. 02:08:47.880 --> 02:08:50.119 And again, it's these extremes. We're not saying 02:08:50.119 --> 02:08:53.460 it has to be surgical like an operating theater, 02:08:53.600 --> 02:08:55.739 but should you be sitting in your gear while 02:08:55.739 --> 02:08:58.340 it's off gassing in the cab? No. So there is, 02:08:58.380 --> 02:09:00.699 again, a middle ground where, I mean, I was a 02:09:00.699 --> 02:09:02.760 Tilleman in California, and so we didn't have 02:09:02.760 --> 02:09:04.619 your pack in the cab. You had to throw it on. 02:09:04.800 --> 02:09:06.699 And I realized, oh, we don't need to have our 02:09:06.699 --> 02:09:09.670 packs in the cab. six seconds to throw it around 02:09:09.670 --> 02:09:12.010 your back and snap it on. And that way, as you 02:09:12.010 --> 02:09:14.369 alluded to earlier, there's a higher chance that 02:09:14.369 --> 02:09:15.750 you're going to put your seatbelt on because 02:09:15.750 --> 02:09:17.289 you're not screwing around with your pack in 02:09:17.289 --> 02:09:19.590 the back and then you get into a fatal accident. 02:09:19.850 --> 02:09:22.409 So I think that middle ground is where a lot 02:09:22.409 --> 02:09:25.829 of the truth normally lies. Somebody said it 02:09:25.829 --> 02:09:27.630 best when they were talking about cancer provision. 02:09:27.850 --> 02:09:31.590 They were like, take a shower, wash your gear, 02:09:31.689 --> 02:09:38.300 wash your pack. Is it? Yep, exactly. Well, one 02:09:38.300 --> 02:09:40.500 more quick area before I let you go. I know we're 02:09:40.500 --> 02:09:44.380 more than two hours now. The Guardian Center. 02:09:44.640 --> 02:09:48.060 I actually ended up visiting that. At the time, 02:09:48.060 --> 02:09:49.779 there was a Marine that was in charge of the 02:09:49.779 --> 02:09:53.340 area. Scott was battling his cancer at the time, 02:09:53.340 --> 02:09:57.859 so I'd originally gone to meet. was blown away 02:09:57.859 --> 02:10:00.319 having worked like i said east and west coast 02:10:00.319 --> 02:10:03.420 the the level of training that was possible in 02:10:03.420 --> 02:10:06.500 that facility was absolutely mind -blowing so 02:10:06.500 --> 02:10:08.600 talk to me again if we're talking about innovation 02:10:08.600 --> 02:10:10.880 and trying to get our first responders to the 02:10:10.880 --> 02:10:13.840 most realistic of training talk to me about that 02:10:13.840 --> 02:10:15.760 facility and you know let's kind of you know 02:10:15.760 --> 02:10:17.779 shed some light on it because i was so impressed 02:10:17.779 --> 02:10:22.000 yeah and it's uh it was all privately done um 02:10:22.000 --> 02:10:26.819 he had a very wealthy uh I believe he was from 02:10:26.819 --> 02:10:29.439 Texas that got interested in the site. And this 02:10:29.439 --> 02:10:32.920 was an old military. Well, it was an old Northrop 02:10:32.920 --> 02:10:37.539 Grumman site and where they built missiles and 02:10:37.539 --> 02:10:42.760 close to the Air Force base. And it never actually 02:10:42.760 --> 02:10:45.439 got into production because they couldn't meet 02:10:45.439 --> 02:10:47.739 a lot of the standards. So it was a huge piece 02:10:47.739 --> 02:10:51.920 of property sitting there. And this guy had a 02:10:51.920 --> 02:10:56.529 dream to build this massive. Um, training center 02:10:56.529 --> 02:10:59.109 that could be used by the military, fire departments, 02:10:59.170 --> 02:11:02.909 police departments, EMS. And, uh, it was kind 02:11:02.909 --> 02:11:06.609 of a post nine 11 type dream, you know, seeing 02:11:06.609 --> 02:11:09.930 the need for it. And, uh, it's Disney world. 02:11:10.090 --> 02:11:15.170 I mean, it is, uh, it's unbelievable that the, 02:11:15.170 --> 02:11:17.390 uh, the props are there and it's, it's basically 02:11:17.390 --> 02:11:22.229 for rent to anybody that, uh, wants to use it. 02:11:23.159 --> 02:11:25.380 It's not necessarily that you sign up for classes 02:11:25.380 --> 02:11:29.020 and go there. It's more for agencies to lease 02:11:29.020 --> 02:11:32.680 it and bring their instructors and their folks. 02:11:32.939 --> 02:11:36.779 I know Special Forces uses it all the time. There's 02:11:36.779 --> 02:11:41.859 collapsed buildings. There's a small little neighborhood 02:11:41.859 --> 02:11:44.720 that can be flooded for a water rescue. There's 02:11:44.720 --> 02:11:51.039 a subway with tracks and subway cars, multi -car 02:11:51.039 --> 02:11:56.449 pileups. There's residential houses, commercial 02:11:56.449 --> 02:12:01.810 buildings. There's several mock city blocks that 02:12:01.810 --> 02:12:05.470 are full -size buildings where the military can 02:12:05.470 --> 02:12:08.949 do close quarters combat. Police can do SWAT 02:12:08.949 --> 02:12:12.350 training. Fire departments can do gas leaks, 02:12:12.729 --> 02:12:15.489 structure fires, building collapse, confined 02:12:15.489 --> 02:12:22.090 space. I actually filmed 13. technical rescue 02:12:22.090 --> 02:12:27.670 training minutes there in august probably 10 02:12:27.670 --> 02:12:30.670 years ago and it was the hottest i think i've 02:12:30.670 --> 02:12:34.050 ever been in my life um but yeah we had a full 02:12:34.050 --> 02:12:37.329 film crew down there and we filmed for two or 02:12:37.329 --> 02:12:41.609 three days straight and uh we still have those 02:12:41.609 --> 02:12:44.909 up on on fire engineering training minutes but 02:12:44.909 --> 02:12:48.550 it it's it's phenomenal and it's uh it just goes 02:12:48.550 --> 02:12:53.319 to show it's like Back to innovation. I mean, 02:12:53.380 --> 02:12:56.060 when you look and you can you can Google it and 02:12:56.060 --> 02:13:01.939 see pictures of these these buildings. I don't 02:13:01.939 --> 02:13:04.300 know of another training center that has that 02:13:04.300 --> 02:13:09.859 level of variety of scenarios that are that realistic, 02:13:09.920 --> 02:13:12.779 like collapsed buildings. And it's not just one 02:13:12.779 --> 02:13:15.340 type. It's like a metal collapsed building, a 02:13:15.340 --> 02:13:18.579 concrete collapsed building, a residential collapsed 02:13:18.579 --> 02:13:23.920 building. And it's just, it's, it's phenomenal. 02:13:24.159 --> 02:13:26.399 So it's definitely worth checking out. If you've 02:13:26.399 --> 02:13:30.699 got a, if you've got a team that, that needs 02:13:30.699 --> 02:13:34.800 to go in a realistic environment and train somewhere, 02:13:34.859 --> 02:13:38.119 it's definitely a place to go, but don't go, 02:13:38.140 --> 02:13:42.800 don't go in August since South Georgia. I wish 02:13:42.800 --> 02:13:44.680 I could remember the name of the gentleman that 02:13:44.680 --> 02:13:47.460 showed me around. Mike is popping in my head. 02:13:47.520 --> 02:13:49.579 Scott Brantley, I think, was the one I was originally 02:13:49.579 --> 02:13:52.260 meeting. Yeah, Scott was there and actually is 02:13:52.260 --> 02:13:54.979 in some of those videos with me. Okay. Yeah, 02:13:55.020 --> 02:13:56.460 one of the things that was interesting was telling 02:13:56.460 --> 02:13:58.600 me, though, and I think this is in a military 02:13:58.600 --> 02:14:01.119 sense, but they even had the ability to use real 02:14:01.119 --> 02:14:04.479 human cadavers, like whole human beings. Now, 02:14:04.520 --> 02:14:06.899 I don't know how you sign up to donate yourself 02:14:06.899 --> 02:14:09.539 to be used as a dead person in the Guardian Center, 02:14:09.720 --> 02:14:13.390 but yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, we actually 02:14:13.390 --> 02:14:18.850 have full cadavers at FDIC too. Oh, really? Yeah, 02:14:19.250 --> 02:14:21.770 we have the actual cadaver lab. So yeah, those 02:14:21.770 --> 02:14:25.449 are people that donated their body to science. 02:14:27.310 --> 02:14:29.869 Brilliant. Well, for people listening, let's 02:14:29.869 --> 02:14:32.710 go to FDIC first. If they want to register for 02:14:32.710 --> 02:14:34.789 this year, if they just want to learn more about 02:14:34.789 --> 02:14:36.810 it, where are the best places online for that 02:14:36.810 --> 02:14:42.479 and fire engineering? So FDIC .com. website is 02:14:42.479 --> 02:14:47.680 is up registration goes live on october 6th and 02:14:47.680 --> 02:14:52.020 uh multiple options we've tried to we got group 02:14:52.020 --> 02:14:56.100 discounts uh a la carte you know however you 02:14:56.100 --> 02:14:58.779 want to however you want to do it um to try to 02:14:58.779 --> 02:15:02.020 fit your budget um we do have an all -inclusive 02:15:02.020 --> 02:15:04.359 package now this made it easier for departments 02:15:04.359 --> 02:15:07.880 that wanted to do hot and the regular conference 02:15:07.880 --> 02:15:12.069 and uh with that Typically, you would only get 02:15:12.069 --> 02:15:14.649 16 hours of training, but that all -inclusive 02:15:14.649 --> 02:15:18.529 package gives you 20 hours of hands -on or workshop 02:15:18.529 --> 02:15:25.329 premium training. And fireengineering, still 02:15:25.329 --> 02:15:30.569 fireengineering .com. You can subscribe for print 02:15:30.569 --> 02:15:33.949 magazine, digital magazine. You can subscribe 02:15:33.949 --> 02:15:36.430 to newsletters and get updates three or four 02:15:36.430 --> 02:15:39.529 times a week with links to like the most popular 02:15:39.529 --> 02:15:43.329 articles. And then each of the other brands, 02:15:43.529 --> 02:15:47.489 firefighternation .com, gems .com, fireapparatus 02:15:47.489 --> 02:15:52.310 .com. Just tons of content going out every day 02:15:52.310 --> 02:15:57.920 that is, you know, written by. SMEs in the field, 02:15:57.979 --> 02:16:01.819 they're firefighters and mechanics and, uh, mental 02:16:01.819 --> 02:16:06.539 health folks and, uh, medics that are out there 02:16:06.539 --> 02:16:09.779 doing the job, um, every day and sharing their 02:16:09.779 --> 02:16:13.680 experiences and, and trying to keep, uh, everybody 02:16:13.680 --> 02:16:16.460 on the, on the know of what's the latest and 02:16:16.460 --> 02:16:18.579 greatest and what's working and what's not working. 02:16:19.180 --> 02:16:21.260 And what about yourself? If people want to reach 02:16:21.260 --> 02:16:25.199 out to you, social media, et cetera. Yeah. I'm 02:16:25.199 --> 02:16:30.399 on Instagram, Facebook, just Chief David Rhodes. 02:16:30.779 --> 02:16:35.260 And my personal Facebook is full because a lot 02:16:35.260 --> 02:16:37.319 of fire people are on there too. So it won't 02:16:37.319 --> 02:16:39.520 let me take anybody else. It caps off at about 02:16:39.520 --> 02:16:42.440 5 ,000, I think. But you can follow me at Chief 02:16:42.440 --> 02:16:45.520 David Rhodes on Facebook and on Instagram and 02:16:45.520 --> 02:16:48.709 on X. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so 02:16:48.709 --> 02:16:50.569 much. It's been such an amazing conversation. 02:16:50.690 --> 02:16:53.090 So much has obviously happened and changed since 02:16:53.090 --> 02:16:56.649 the last time we spoke. But with your kind of, 02:16:56.649 --> 02:17:00.629 you know, respected veteran perspective on a 02:17:00.629 --> 02:17:02.450 lot of the issues that we've unpacked, I'm sure 02:17:02.450 --> 02:17:04.530 it's going to resonate deeply with a lot of people 02:17:04.530 --> 02:17:07.010 that listen. So I want to thank you so much for 02:17:07.010 --> 02:17:09.190 being so generous with your time and coming back 02:17:09.190 --> 02:17:12.170 on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank 02:17:12.170 --> 02:17:14.170 you, man. And thank you for what you're doing. 02:17:14.569 --> 02:17:15.290 Keep it up.