This episode is sponsored by NuCalm, and as
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software. And you can find even more information
on NuCalm .com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield
podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,
and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome
back onto the show Education Director for FDIC,
Editor -in -Chief for Fire Engineering, and Chief
Elder for the Georgia Smoke Diver Program, Chief
David Rhodes. Now, in this second conversation,
we discuss a host of topics. The importance of
leadership in education, special operations training,
the impact of organizational betrayal on the
fire service, the recruitment crisis, the 2472,
PFAS, some incredible fire service innovations
happening at FDIC, and so much more. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment. Go
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said... Welcome
back onto the show, Chief David Rhodes. Enjoy.
Well, David, I want to start by saying welcome
back to the Behind the Shield podcast. The last
time we spoke was beginning of 2019, episode
168. You were still Smoke Daddy and still working
at Atlanta. So I know we've got a lot to discuss,
but I firstly just want to welcome you back.
Yeah, man. It's great to see you and good to
see how much you've grown since then. It's been
a journey. So I think I guess the first icebreaker
then would be to talk about what made you finally
pull the trigger as far as retirement. And then,
as you know, we are both fully aware that can
be very jarring for a lot of men and women in
uniform. How was your transition specifically?
I was ready to go the last last couple of years
with the. All the stuff that happened with the
attempted firing and the demotion and then re
-promotion was an interesting time. But I was
in an area where definitely wasn't getting the
fire calls that I was used to. And so we did
training quite a bit in that battalion and had
some great crews. But I was really fastly approaching
30 years there, which was 36 years total in the
fire service. And I had kind of been contemplating
it. And gosh, we had that big civil unrest in
2020. And I think I had six back -to -back decent
structure fires and all kinds of crazy stuff
happened that night. And it was like the most
epic shift. ever and i was like you know what
i should probably go right now because i'll never
top this and i didn't i stuck around another
another six or eight months or so and and i did
end up going about six months early from my birthday
but it didn't really have any effect on my uh
benefits very much and uh um i did it was just
time to go and uh A year after that, you know,
Bobby Halton hired me full time to be his heir
apparent and sort of CEO for FDIC and fire engineering,
take a little bit of load off of him. And so
I was still in the game. I was still doing my
consulting. in training and doing promotional
exams so i wasn't really out of the fire service
completely i just wasn't going in working shift
work so it was a little different for me probably
than most people because i was still so close
to the business so i really enjoyed that first
year off i was really getting big into golf and
my schedule i could set my own schedule and I
was probably playing twice a week. And then when
Bobby hired me, all that went to a stop and I
was right back into the grind. When you say 2020,
that was the ripple effect of the George Floyd
incident? You know, I don't even remember. I
think so. We had so many over the years, but
I think that was probably it. It may have been.
We had some stuff go on, too. We had the shooting
at Wendy's where the guy got in a scuffle with
a police officer, stole his taser, fired it at
him, and the guy returned real fire and killed
him. And that was a big part, too. So I can't
remember if it was that specifically or if it
was leftover from Floyd. Over my career, I had
about four. Four periods of pretty good civil
unrest. So this last one was probably the most
destructive. Every single windshield on every
fire apparatus in my battalion was busted. And
one of the mutual aid companies that responded,
the very first call we went on, they turned the
corner and they just got destroyed with bricks.
And their battalion chief made them retreat back
to their home territory and wouldn't let them
come back. And we just kept on rolling. We just
kept on rolling. Tear gas everywhere. And like
I said, you don't want to see that happen in
your city. But from an incident response perspective,
it was definitely epic. When you reflect back
now, you've obviously got leadership roles in
so many different areas, and you've worked in
a very diverse city in the US for numerous decades
now. What is the underlying issue that is causing...
this uprising in, you know, in communities that
otherwise, you know, I mean, if I go out my front
door now, you know, that we've got all colors
and creeds where I work and where I live, excuse
me, you know, so I would argue that is a norm
in the US. So what are you seeing as far as the
gas that's being thrown on the fire that's causing
these extreme events? I think the majority of
what happens is, is, is coordinated. It's coordinated
on a big scale. We saw trucks dropping off pallets
of bricks on the corner. It's being funded somewhere.
And I think what happens is just they're experts
at human nature and they know if they can insert
100, 200 people in and break a few windows, then
the local people who show up to join the fun
are going to jump right in. and join the party.
But, I mean, we saw it. You could tell the professionals,
you know, the way they were dressed, the actions
that they took, and you would see them, you know,
smash a retail store window with a skateboard
and jump in, and then, you know, 100 people would
follow them, and then you'd see them sneak right
back out, you know, in a few seconds. So it's
a sad deal, but I think. You know, I think that
there's legitimate protests where people, you
know, they go and file a permit to hold a protest
and they're very peaceful and they hold their
signs and say their positions. And I mean, that's
the American way. But some of these were definitely
fueled by some massive. national organization.
I'm convinced of that for sure. You could see
it. Absolutely. What about the kind of, you know,
stories from those events and as far as whether
it was, you know, the structural operational
side or even, you know, stories of compassion
or heroism that you witnessed? Yeah. Well, one
incident that was, I think it was our last incident
of the night was a fire at a Target retail store,
big Target store. There were people coming out
of the store as we were going in and it was such
a professional job. There were rented trucks
backed up to the loading docks. And, you know,
the whole TV section was was wiped out in the
phone section. And and again, back to the coordination,
you know that like you can't go rent a truck
and. three or four hours and plan that out and,
uh, and make it happen. But, uh, it was, it was
very, very, very structured and, and, uh, um,
you know, the store was a total loss and, and,
uh, never reopened. So, um, compassion wise.
Yeah. You saw a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, people
were trying to help and trying to, uh, um, We
had a couple apartment fires. There were, you
know, people from the apartments trying to help
pull hoes and keep people back. And, you know,
they're just trying to save their resident, you
know, where they live and save their stuff. And
obviously we're very short staff. Trucks can't
get in from all directions. So you're starting
out with kind of a small crew. So, again, you
know, the good thing is it wasn't the majority
of people, but it was a very large, large crowd.
And they moved in waves in different parts of
the city. We actually heard the I had about four
radios going. So I was listening to police and
the fire channels and we heard them. The like
the undercover officers that were in the crowd
were saying, hey, they're talking about moving
to Buckhead. And it wasn't 30, 40 minutes and
fires were started and all hell was breaking
loose. Crazy stuff. It is. And you talk about,
again, the minority versus the majority. I think
this is a problem, whether it's within our profession
or outside that we're talking about now, is I
don't know how it happened, but the extremists
got the microphone. They got the narrative, they
got the social media algorithms. And I think
that, you know, sadly there was, you know, somewhat
apathy. And when it came to the middle, even
let's just go to COVID for a second, you know,
it was obviously a real virus. People were obviously
getting sick, but the truth was the healthier
we try and make everyone, the better the outcome.
And that was demonized. Like, God forbid you
talk about exercise and, you know, going to a
park and all that kind of stuff. it goes to show
that you know the thing and i hope this is happening
now i i really believe it is starting to be an
awakening of that middle 80 that are realizing
that they've been you know been duped for all
these years. But I mean, you saw the footage
over and over again of these instigators that
were literally destroying what was supposed to
be their own communities, but it probably wasn't
their own communities. And these poor shopkeepers
and homeowners are destroyed. But then you saw
that compassion of local residents after and
people from nowhere near there coming in with
brooms and shovels and cleaning everything up
for people. So I think that's what we've got
to really reframe is that it is the minority
that are causing all these problems. And it was
after I had retired, but you probably saw it
on the news where Atlanta was building the new
public safety training center. And the same folks
turned back out to protest that, you know, they
were building, they called it Cop City. And it
was really for fire and police and several other
things. But it was a long, long overdue needed
training center. I mean, we were both police
and fire were operating out of old, you know,
1950s. Elementary schools still had the same,
you know, kiddie toilets and stuff in them. And
there was a whole group that was, you know, living
in trees and chaining themselves to trees and
all that. And when they did start breaking the
law and arresting them, I think out of everybody
arrested over a year and a half period, only
one was actually from Georgia. And so that tells
you there's a money machine, you know. Somewhere.
But yeah, it's a, it's anything, you know, we
go to extremes. We talk about it with fire tactics
and stuff. And we, we joke all the time. It's
like, man, I was like, it's so, so nice just
to sort of live in the middle, you know? And
sometimes we go too far, you know, either side
of, of, of issues. We go too safe sometimes and
won't let our people work. And we go too reckless
sometimes. And, and we don't have control of.
of what our folks are doing. So you have to,
it's a constant struggle to sort of live in the
middle and you're a hundred percent right. I
think social media is a big part of, of fueling
the extremes for sure. What about Danny Dwyer?
I think that was after you and I spoke. So we
talk again about that middle ground. And I, I
think talking to Danny, I use this example. If
a police officer, kicks in a door and runs in
a burning building with no SCBA or bunker gear,
they get awards. If a firefighter does it, they
get told that they're freelancing and they get
disciplinary action. So what was your perspective
on that? I was just, before we got on this podcast,
editing a couple of videos from his civil service
hearing for a presentation I'm doing next week.
And yeah, it was crazy. It was insanity. Um,
you know, I'm, I'm very familiar with the whole
three hour civil service hearing and I was familiar
before the story, but you know, back to the way
you treat your folks is like that incident happened.
Um, and that was during COVID too. So there was
no, uh, in -person civil service hearings. They
were all online, which was awesome. Cause we
could all watch without even having to go down.
And, uh, you know, the fire department said he
was freelancing. But the radio traffic and the
testimony, Captain Ware is the key to this whole
thing. And he's such a great guy. He was a captain
with me for a couple of years. I was Battalion
3. He was a captain at Station 15. And he was
the key witness in the whole civil service case.
And, you know, the attorney for Dwyer went through
and asked him the questions. And he just kept
repeating. Like he was confused at why he was
even being asked these questions because he was
the IC. He was the first officer on the scene.
He was on the attack line. And Danny arrived
with an understaffed tiller truck. So he had
two drivers and himself. So they were having
to get the rest of their equipment on, their
air packs and all. And he ran up to the front
porch. He was ready to go. And the captain knew
there was entrapment. Got opened up and he said,
come on over the radio. He said, come on, Lieutenant
Dwyer, come on and go with Engine 22. We need
a quick primary search. And so basically he joined
Engine 22's crew. The fire department's position
was that he was separate from his crew, which
he was, but he was not freelancing. Freelancing
would have been. He went around back and entered
and didn't say anything to anybody and started
some operation that wasn't coordinated, wasn't
announced. But he was definitely not freelancing.
And he, you know, he ended up serving a two,
I think it was a two day suspension. But Captain
Ware told the truth at this hearing. He was the
key to getting it overturned. The unfortunate
part was the hearing didn't take place for two
years. Atlanta and went to another fire department.
And I use that as an example of integrity is
that, you know, the department really wanted
him to toe the line and the, uh, the city even
asked him, you know, if you were in his position,
would you do the same thing or would you do something
different? And he goes, I would have done it
exactly the same way. And that blew the whole
case. Yeah. So. Yeah, it was a bad thing. But,
you know, that one got a lot of publicity. Again,
that was, you know, got blew up on social media.
But unfortunately, I travel and those stories
are rampant all over the country. And it may
not have been a rescue, but it was something
just as bad as far as what the department did
to somebody to, you know. you messed up a career
you messed up the morale of uh a crew a department
and uh it just it just does not make sense and
it's like where's the return to common sense
when i worked at orange county we used to joke
you know if i get killed in a fire or i anything
happens to me just throw a traffic vest on my
corpse so i don't get written up posthumously
because they're more concerned about that than
they were anything you actually did yeah and
and You know, you think about accountability.
I had this conversation with an old veteran of
the fire service, and we were talking about seatbelt
usage. And, you know, there was a recent incident
where a firefighter was killed in an accident,
and it came out that he wasn't wearing a seatbelt.
It looks like there might even be some some alcohol
related stuff to it. But you don't really hear
too much about that after the fact, you know,
and there's a behavior that you could really
correct that, you know, most everybody has a
policy to wear a seatbelt. But if you don't wear
it and something happens, then, you know, you
still get the same royal treatment. You know,
it's a lot of duty death. And I guess the departments
are afraid to say anything because they're afraid
it'll affect their benefits or, or something.
But there's like, there's selective accountability,
um, on things. And that's what, that's what guys
hate is the inconsistency, you know? Well, talk
about it all the time. If you're, if you're working
for a guy that's just a complete ass, at least,
you know, he's an ass every day, you know, but
don't be nice to me one day. and try to gain
my trust and then turn on me the next day after
you after you get it that's that's what causes
us to uh to have you know issues it's uh it's
not the call so much as it's the uh it's the
uh just daily inconsistency and and weak weak
and selective leadership it's amazing listening
to so many of these conversations and you know
a lot of times What happened to us before we
put the uniform is a big part of, you know, whether
people struggle more or not. But then another
big, you know, elephant in the room is organizational
stress, organizational betrayal. And if you think
about it tribally, you enter this group, you
know, you got their badge on their chest and
their patch on your shoulder. And, you know,
you literally would die for these men and women.
You know, God forbid it comes to that. And you
do everything you're trained for and you hold
yourself accountable and you, you know, stay
in shape and you go to extra classes. And then
something like that happens. And it would be
like, you know, a ancient tribe suddenly turning
their back on you. And, you know, if you look
at that, you know, historically that meant death.
You know, if you were ostracized, you were probably
going to starve to death or get killed by another
tribe or a predator. And so we have that ingrained
in us. So you're going to ask us to be all in
and give everything and make this ultimate sacrifice
for our loved ones and children to say goodbye
to us when we walk out the door. And then when
we do exactly what we're supposed to do, you're
then going to cut our legs from under us. And
then you wonder why we have such a mental health
crisis. This is a big part of it. Yeah. Yeah.
And for a lot of people, you know, like you said,
they come in with issues. It's not necessarily
that the fire department causes all the issues.
But the fire department's social structure could
be the healing part of their... issues their
coping mechanism their support network and um
you know you got some people say three some say
more than that but like if you got three legs
of the stool that keep you balanced um and you
know your work is one of those and if you if
you don't have that piece to rely on um and you're
already weak and then the family side or the
financial side or whatever then that could be
the straw that that breaks the camel's back when,
uh, we're talking about that betrayal. Um, somebody
asked me to describe at one time and I'm like,
the only, it's so hard to describe, but there's
a scene in the movie Braveheart, which is an
older movie, but it's a, it's a great movie.
It's Mel Gibson. And, uh, he's, he's fighting
for, uh, Scotland against the, against the, uh,
English. And he has, pledged loyalty to the King
of Scotland and he's fighting. And, uh, I mean,
it's just a gruesome, brutal, you know, hand
to hand combat battle with swords and shields.
And he, uh, he gets in a, in a one -on -one fight
with this guy and he knocks the guy's armored
helmet off and he realizes it's the King of Scotland
who has totally betrayed him. And is fighting
with the English to wipe him out because of some
backdoor deal. And it destroys him. He collapses.
And obviously he gets captured and eventually,
you know, tortured to death. But that scene,
if you watch that scene and the facial expressions
and with the music and the tone that they set
for that moment, that is what you feel like with
organizational betrayal. I mean, it's it's. perfect
representation. Absolutely. Well, you have a
near four decade perspective on the fire service
now. What was it like when you were a probie?
Were we seeing these same kind of issues? And
if not, what has changed over the last 40 years
that we found ourselves where this seems to be,
as you said, the same kind of theme, no matter
where you are in the country or even the world
these days when it comes to our profession? Yeah,
I'm sure there was always internal politics and
unfairness and, you know, the quote, good old
boy system in a lot of places. But I think your
first five to seven years, I don't think you
notice it as much because you're just so excited
to be doing what you're doing. And so you don't
notice it. And it doesn't really matter as much
to you because as long as you can fight fire
and go on those calls, it's like it's not a big
deal. As you get up, you know, five, seven years,
then it's sort of time for you to be promoted.
So you may enter your first process. And, you
know, in some departments, it's just appointments,
even for, you know, lower rank jobs. It's just
whoever they want to occupy the spot. So you
start to notice it a little bit. They're still
not. destroying your morale or anything because
it's not that big a deal but then i think you
just um it's like uh sort of like a uh um slow
building disease that like you know you uh i
joke about you having a filter on your liver
your liver filters your your your uh blood and
toxins and everything and i always joke that
in public safety there's another little little
filter off and it's your BS filter and, and that
that BS goes in there and it compacts and it,
and it holds pretty good for about 20, 25 years.
And then it gets full. And then when it gets
full, it leaks and it leaks all in your system.
And it kind of gives you a shitty outlook on
a lot of things. It goes straight to your optical
nerve and, uh, and you start noticing, you start
noticing everything. And, uh, um, So I don't
know. I do think that there was a shift in leadership
priorities because I think when I came in, we
were still led by the, you know, the Vietnam
generation who had done combat and come into
the fire service. And they still had that patriotism
and, you know, get in there and get it done attitude.
And then I think there was. There was such an
emphasis put on education, you know, 25, 30 years
ago that it became the chic thing to do to promote
the person with the most education. And it didn't
matter if they had leadership skills or if they
had tactical competency. It was just strictly
a certificate was the only validation you needed.
Again, human nature, when you see that happening.
Instead of the the the troops on the ground spending
time going to training and going to make themselves
better and learn the job, they saw that the ticket
to success was just education. And so they put
all their effort into, you know, getting that
piece of paper and getting that degree and they
abandoned. the tactical side of the job um not
totally but they didn't focus on it and and we
had a couple generations of that was sort of
the path to a leadership position and i think
it backfired you know i mean there needs again
we shifted too far there was no middle ground
there was no there was no okay well you need
some education but you need a lot of experience
to go with that it was just strictly that title
you know it's like oh we got this one guy that
has a master's degree we're going to make him
the fire chief or her the fire chief and and
um you know that's not the that's not the mark
of being able to assess knowledge skills and
abilities that's that's a mark to say that you
dedicated time and accomplished something but
it's not the mark that you're going to be a good
leader and a successful manager uh of the fire
department so we went we went too far to the
manager side and left out the leadership side
and and it wasn't just the fire department this
happened everywhere so it was a societal uh societal
issue but to me that's my theory over 40 years
looking at it was that that made a huge difference
in the the camaraderie the spree decor The emphasis
on, you know, fire tactics, everything became
risk averse. It's like we were so scared of somebody
getting hurt and a piece of equipment getting
broke that we couldn't win. We were not allowed
to win and we were not allowed to make the rescue.
And and I tell you what, I really I saw I've
seen two. Very hard grassroots bottom up movements
in those 40 years. One was RIT. I give Mike Lombardo
credit for RIT is that Buffalo was having a ton
of line of duty deaths. Their staffing had been
compromised and they were still sticking to the
same tactics, which is typical. And he started,
you know. Putting extra people in staging and
they called them fast teams at first. And that
took hold. But that was a bottom up movement.
And then classes were developed and people started
training on their own. And at one time it was
like that was a specialty class at FDIC was,
you know, saving our own. And now like that's
in recruit schools, like standard curriculum.
It's in basic firefighter curriculum. And then
we ended up with the two in, two out. And that
even pushed it even further to make sure that
you had writ in place. There were some problems
that came along with that because we focused
again too much on that. It's like if those two
people would pull the line that I wouldn't need
to be rescued. So that was one. And then the
second one that I'm seeing and this one is like
near and dear to my heart because it's like was
part of my mission as. taken over at FDIC and
fire engineering was search had become an afterthought
after the fire was extinguished. And, and part
of that was from the risk averse movement of,
of 20 plus years ago. And, and now with things
like the firefighter rescue survey is like, there
are like, Guys on their own collecting data,
building this out of their own pocket. It's not
a government funded deal. And they're giving
us data that's showing how many people we're
rescuing every day. It's like you would think
that the fire department would brag about how
many people we rescue a day. But like nobody
knows. Nobody knows. So they're bringing attention
to that and they're getting data. Like if you
make a rescue in the first minute. of arrival,
then, you know, there's a 70 plus percent chance
of survival. And then every minute after that,
those chances go down and it's showing, Hey,
you know, just like a school shooting, they're
teaching the police, like go in first guy, go
in. Even if all you have is a handgun, like go
in and disrupt the shooter, you know, let's roll.
Um, I use the example on searches like, and it
ties back into Danny's story. Any fire department
in anywhere USA pulls up and there's a kid floating
face down at the bottom of a swimming pool is
going to expect that their firefighter jumps
in, swims to the bottom, and comes back up with
that kid. They don't have to be water rescue
certified. They don't have to have water rescue
equipment. They don't have to have anything.
They're just expected to do it. And there's no...
No more IDLH environment than being underwater.
I mean, you can't breathe. And we've got a firefighter
with a year's worth of recruit training, $30
,000, $40 ,000 worth of gear, a $2 million apparatus,
and they're afraid to let somebody go in and
save a life in a smoke -filled house. It just
does not make sense. And so I'm very proud that
that is back in the forefront and there's more
people talking about search and how important
and that's getting back to the mission that we're
there to save lives. You know, that's why we
go. Property is saved secondary to lives. And
those are the two biggest groundswell movements
that I've seen over 40 years. And they didn't
come down from the top from policy. It came from
the bottom up. What was interesting working for
four departments, East Coast and West Coast,
excuse me, was I started off trained in Florida.
So again, good engine operations training, very
poor truck company operations training, good
EMS training. And then I go get hired in Anaheim,
California. And they're, you know, sticking ladders
and we're doing all kinds of roof ops and building
construction. And I'm scrambling to try and keep
up with these guys that were trained in California.
And, you know, so then I get to see this great
combination between vertical ventilation and,
you know, aggressive interior operations. And
then I come back to Florida after I have a little
boy. And this is Orange County again. And I was
told, oh, we don't put anyone on the roof here.
because we have lightweight construction. And
I'm like, well, the whole building is lightweight
construction where I just came from. And you're
telling me that you won't put anyone on a roof,
but you'll put a bunch of people under a roof.
And that was kind of the time in my career. So
we're talking about five years on where I started
seeing that there were just fallacies that we
were taught at the academy level, like the way
that we were taught how to throw a ladder in
the Florida Fire Academies. You lay it flat and
then you walk it up and you stand to the side
and oh no, you've got to turn it around this
way. You can't climb it the other way. And all
these things. And then you go out west and they
just stick it up, tie it off and get up there.
And then it made a lot more sense. And then again,
you watch a vertical ventilation on a building
that requires it. And then you get the hell off
the roof. And then you're at interior one day
and you see all the smoke and heat disappear.
And you're like, oh, wow, I can walk over, put
the fire out. And if there is someone there,
we can stand up and drag them out. You look at
vehicle fires and we were putting water on them.
And you realize, oh, wait a second, the car is
all class B. So why are we chasing it with an
entire tank of water when, you know, we laugh
at the big tarp that the Europeans have tried.
But I mean, ultimately, that's it. You just smother
it and walk away. So what I realized is that
there is also a huge lack of communication. And
I started seeing how siloed the American fire
service war was. And you have city and county.
Oh, they don't like each other. Wait a second.
There's two groups of grownups that are doing
the same job and they air quotes don't play well
together. Again, going back to mismanagement,
how the hell did that happen? So you now are
obviously in this national position with FDIC.
How do we tear down the walls of the silos and
allow the best ideas to rise to the top and start
debunking some of these myths that some of these
fire departments still believe to this day? Yeah,
hear it all the time. Egos eat brain cells. And
I do see a lot of a lot more regional and state
cooperation than than there was when I first
got in the in the fire service. There's a lot
more standard training. Fires are still local.
There's still local building construction issues.
You know, like, for instance, the the West Coast
had tons of. Wood commercial roofs, flat wood
commercial roofs, and they were big on chainsaws
and West Coast was more on rotary saws and stuff.
And all of that is fine because you need the
right tactic for the construction you have. FDNY
didn't do a whole lot of residential roof ventilation.
They do commercial roof ventilation, but, you
know. If you just look at that on the surface,
you're like, well, why not? Well, then you look
and you're like, well, it's a northern state.
The roofs are built to repel snow. So there are
12 -12 roof pitches. And it's a little more difficult
on a 12 -12 than it is on a very low angle roof
that we would have here in the south or you would
have in like the southwest. So tactics still
need to be local. The key is not hitting the
easy button and just putting out blanket policies
like we don't get on the roof. Teach the people
fire behavior, building construction, fire dynamics,
and allow them to use the appropriate tactic
for the situation that they encounter on that
fire. You could have. Two structures that are
identical except for the roof pitch, and that
may be the deciding factor in whether you're
cutting or not. You know, but let them make those
decisions on the scene. And I think, again, the
Chesty Puller was the most decorated Marine Corps,
Marine in history. All right. And when he retired,
he was asked, you know, what do you think is
happening to the Marine Corps? I want to say
he was in some ungodly amount of years, you know,
like 50 years or something. He's like, what do
you see? What do you know? What are your what
are your fears for the Marine Corps? And he said,
I fear we are becoming overeducated and under
experienced. And. I think there's a lot of truth
in that. So there's a lot of people that have
been exposed to information, whether it's a study
or a training class or whatever, but they haven't
had the opportunity. To experience the results
of implementing those things on the scene, especially
over and over. If you're having one fire a year,
two fires a year, that's not enough for you to
see patterns and habits. That's like you're,
you know, it's a new day every day. You know,
it's a new lesson learned. But if you're going
to multiple, multiple incidents and, you know,
you cut a hole in a roof and you see that. You
didn't have a line in place and you saw that
the fire grew bigger because you introduced more
air. Then you start to learn. You're like, OK,
well, it's not that the hole's bad. It's that
it was opened at the wrong time. And so you start
to make those adjustments and you start to learn.
But you have to know building construction. You
have to know fire behavior, fire dynamics. And
if you don't know those, then you can't be good
at tactics. And so that's where the focus needs
to be is on. Giving them the education so that
they know the dynamics and the fire behavior
and the building construction. But then you've
got to give them the experience, too. And if
they don't get that from regular call volume,
then they have to have live fire training and
they have to have lots of it, not just once a
year. And my push is that it needs to be in acquired
structures. And that's very difficult. But at
a minimum. It needs to be in training locations
that are using materials that can mimic the actual
conditions, not just two pallets up against the
wall in a concrete building that takes five gallons
of water to suppress. You know, you got to restrict
flow. You got to create some more theatrics and
make the fires look like they're going to look
like and make the smoke look like it's going
to look like. you know, out in the field and
you need to do that, you know, year round. So,
and that's tough, that's tough to do. I'm not
saying it's easy at all, but, but when you look
at some of the things we prioritize that we in
budget for and do, if we would just get back
to those basics of like being able to do. Fire
extinguishment, search, rescue, extrication.
And if you're into the medical stuff, then you're
medical. If you just focus on that, then that's
the only thing worth spending your time on. All
the rest of it's fluff. Yeah, I agree. When I
was in Anaheim, again, this really sharp learning
curve at the beginning. By the end of the probationary
year, we'd done so much training. And exactly
like you're talking about, you were taught, you
know, panelized roof. Then, you know, there's
an orchestrated way to cut it and you get off.
And, you know, the bowstring roof, you're not
going to be walking on. And, you know, you look
at a structure, okay, that's already self -vented.
We're not even going to get up there in the first
place. But that's education. That's reps. And
they did acquire structures. I remember one training
in an acquired apartment complex, wood frame
apartment complex, and they cut. you know, pre
pre -cut vent holes. And we're a little overly
aggressive where we almost called a full second
alarm to this training. And I got to experience
what a real spongy roof is, you know, firsthand,
but that that's it. You, you remember those.
I remember when it was a cold, cold day and we
did tick training, really excellent tick training
and going from that cold outside to the cold
interior, the tick shut down. They couldn't handle
that, that change. All these little lessons that,
as you said, you know, host management, Hialeah
did a great job in their, their tower of having
all this metal furniture. So you're not just
going straight to the fire. You're having to
mitigate all this, you know, these couches and
tables, and then there's interior stairwells.
And so now you realize, oh. you need to actually
manage these corners. You need to, you know,
be able to get the hose to the person. You don't
get that in a, in a bear, you know, training
tower, as you said, with, with a bale of hay
in the corner. So the realism in training, and
I think also a thing that's missing so many times
is that fitness component. You know, what is,
what is the exertion before you begin this operation?
Everything's set up, you know, you're taking
it in turns. So what have you done to replicate?
climbing 10 stories or dragging you know five
inch to a hydrant first before you you make entry
because that's a big big part you don't begin
a fire fresh and calm right yep still a lot to
do and some some places are doing doing well
with it um but you know there's just a lot of
distractions a lot of distractions and a lot
of required stuff that's really not um relevant
to being able to accomplish the core mission
of the job. And, you know, it's said about every
20 or 30 years, return to the basics, you know,
return to the basics. And what you find too is,
you know, kind of back to the mental health angle
is that the more active you are, the more a lot
of other problems go away. You know, if you're...
If you're spending time doing things that really
don't matter, that's when everybody's really
complaining. Or if you're not doing anything
at all. I always say like the slower, the slower
companies are always late on all their hydrants
and building inspections and everything. And
the companies that are running 15, 20, 30 calls
a day always have everything in on time. You
know, it's like you got to get that movement.
You got to. create that momentum and and keep
people engaged if not you know you you just sort
of die on the vine you know i never saw shift
or shift wars at busy stations not many every
now and then you have a little personality conflict
between a couple people but uh they they'll go
out and duke it out and then it's over yeah when
i went and did uh my exercise physiology degree
when I came out the other end and actually spanned
two universities, the University of North London
and UF here in Florida. And really what it really
prepared me to do was to be in a lab in a university
as a sports scientist. It didn't give me the
skills to really then go out and coach. There
was one semester in UF that did a great job.
It prepared you for a thing called the CSCS.
But apart from that, everything else was super
academic. What's interesting is now, let me see,
the Washington Post, I think it was, did an article
recently how Gen Z are leaning into the trades
because for the same reason that when they Google
what's it like to be a firefighter and all the
beautiful stuff that we're discussing now comes
up, but so does divorce, alcoholism, cancer,
testosterone depletion, et cetera, et cetera,
mandatory overtime. And so when they're Googling
university, they're like, well, you know, like
my degree was tens of thousands of dollars for
a piece of paper that doesn't guarantee you a
job. And they're going, well, that doesn't sound
very good. This is what I'm seeing, you know,
when it comes to what you were talking about
a minute ago with this need for education, for
leadership in the fire services, you're going
to school, you're studying these myopic slices
of, you know, academia. And then you're going
out into the real world and having to manage
people and scenes. And I don't think those two
line up at all. No, no, they definitely can complement
each other because it's always say it's the,
you know, the education will give you the why
and the training will give you the how. And then
the experience of actually putting it together
is that magical piece that creates the actual.
result and uh and you know the thing is too is
uh education is easier than it ever has been
because um i forget the stats but like you know
you used you used to have to go to the library
to get a book you had to enroll in college to
get certain types of classes and knowledge now
I mean, there is nothing other than the schedule
and all, but there's nothing you don't have access
to anymore. If you want to learn something and
you're self -motivated, I mean, that information
is out there. And not only is it out there in
the written word, there's videos of how to, you
know, you can have. Um, some of the experts in
the world on a certain subject, you know, that
do YouTube shorts and tell you, you know, this
is, this is this there's person, there's leadership
coaches. Um, you know, if you want to, if you
want to learn how to, uh, um, raise art, I mean,
you, you can learn all that stuff on your own
now way more than you ever could. And what did
they say? Something like, uh, a, uh, Five to
six year old kid is exposed to more information
than, you know, a 70 year old 50 years ago. And
so it's it's out there and it's it's changing.
It's changing the dynamics and importance and
of of having to to spend that money and go that
formal route of education. So it's like. There's
still the societal issue that it's like, if you
go out and learn all that on your own, then the
society wants to say, well, that doesn't count.
And that's why I'm such a proponent of knowledge
skills and ability tests for promotions. It's
like, what do you actually have to do to be a
lieutenant? In a fire department, like what what
decisions do you have to make and what situations
do you face? And do you have the skills to do
that? Because there's no certification or degree
that tells you that you that you're going to
be good at it. The way to assess it is to actually
have an assessment that makes you do it. Makes
you command a fire, makes you deal with a personnel
problem, makes you teach a training class, makes
you. Do a presentation on short notice. That
gets into your knowledge, skills, and ability
and ability to function. There's no written test
that'll do it. And there's no interview that
will produce that. And it's expensive to do processes
like that, but they're out there and they're
very successful. It's been amazing yet disappointing.
unpacking a lot of the issues that I'm trying
to you know bring solutions to and I say me I
don't have the solution I'm finding the world's
experts and lived experiences and layering you
know almost like a case for example you know
for the 42 hour work week when it comes to performance
and longevity and relationships and all the things
But what's become glaring is also that there
are certainly people that are at the helm of
unions, of chief positions, city managers, et
cetera, where there is outright cowardice, where
their men and women are literally being buried
yearly, and yet they do nothing to change anything.
So if you were king for a day, how do we change
this crisis of leadership? to put moral courage
back into a very morally courageous profession
so that we can have that synergy between, as
you said, the educational piece, but also the
right human beings that will truly advocate for
their people again. That's tough. King for a
day can force things to happen, but that doesn't
mean they're going to last. And that's a pretty
deep way to look at it. But yeah, if you were
king for a day, then you would put in place the
leaders that had that mentality, that background,
that knowledge, and they would make good decisions
to make those changes that are necessary. That's
utopia, obviously. And I had this discussion
on another podcast with a lady who had lost her
son who died by suicide. He was a police officer.
And she was on a mission to make sure it doesn't
happen to anybody else. And she had that same
type of questions like, what do we do? And nothing
happens on our timeline. I learned that a long
time ago. We want it to be solved today. There's
no magic wand. There's no silver bullet to make
all the issues go away. And I said, what you
do is you keep doing what you're doing is you
play the long game and you educate the people
that will listen. And you hope that those people
promote and move up in their organizations. And
you have to look at these changes as like 30
-year changes. Gosh, we want it to happen today.
We want it to happen right now. But it's impossible
to turn a battleship around at the same rate
that you can turn a speedboat around. And the
problem's massive. And so it's one department
at a time. It's one department implementing mental
health policies and schedule changes one state
at a time, implementing benefits for presumptive
cancer or reproductive health issues for female
firefighters. But there's no light switch that's
going to fix it all at one time. And so the frustrating
part is if you're on the beginning end of that
push is that progress doesn't seem too fast.
But always compare it to, and I heard this years
ago, are you familiar with the English ivy plant?
I am. I have one in my bathroom. It's really
good at taking up the poo apparently. All right.
So English, English Ivy is a beautiful, beautiful
ground cover. When I bought my first house, I
was like, Oh, I want this Ivy. I'd seen it in
these other landscapes. I want this Ivy going
across the ground. Yeah. You got to keep it out
of the trees and all that, but it's just beautiful
on the ground. So I planted it and nothing happened.
You know, these, these plants didn't do anything.
They're just there. And so I was talking to an
old timer and he's like, yeah, you know, the
saying with the Ivy. The first couple years,
it sleeps. And then for a couple years, it creeps.
And then the next thing you know, that shit is
in your trees and taking over your house because
it leaps. And that's the same with change. I
don't know who Brunicini probably got it from,
but his famous quote was, firefighters hate two
things, change and the way things are. And it's
so true. In 1985, when I started at the Conyers
Fire Department, guess what shift we worked?
2472. Oh, really? Yes. I'm all ears. Yes. 2472.
We worked it in the county department, worked
it, and we fought to go to 2448. You know why?
Money. We all got raises because we worked more
hours. And, you know, the old government trick,
you're an hourly employee, but you're a salary
employee at the same time. And that way, you
know, you get around some laws. But, yeah, we
were working that schedule, 42 -hour work week
in 1985, 86, and we changed in 88. And then we
consolidated with the county in 90 and went back
to the 24 -72. And as a young five -year firefighter,
I hated it because I wanted to be on duty 24
hours a day, every day. As I got older, we joked
about it all the time. Me and a friend of mine,
we'd be like, man, wouldn't 24 -72 be so freaking
nice now? I mean, it's 42 hours. My fear with
it is that, and I'm 100 % in favor of it. My
fear is, and it could be because of my generation
and my experience, my generation would take 24
-72 and see it as an opportunity to work for
two fire departments and make even more money.
So now I can work 48 -48. And I still got a couple
of days off and I cut grass on the side of that.
I don't know that that's as big a deal with the
with the newer generation because they're they're
they're not the hustlers. The, you know, just
work, work, work, work, work. They they want
the time off and and stuff. So so that'll be
interesting to see. And I've seen that in some.
in some surveys that the younger generation,
they're already not working the part -time jobs
like we did in our generation. And somebody asked
me, like, what's your advice to a new firefighter?
I'm like, don't get a second job in the same
profession. I won't tell you not to get a second
job because I actually think work is healthy
for you, that you need to work. But work at a
fire department and then work cutting grass or
working at Home Depot or having a business or
doing consulting or whatever. But don't work
24 hours at the fire department and then go work
12 or 24 hours on an ambulance. Or don't go to
work at another fire department and work 48,
24 or 48, 48. And I say that, you know, you've
got so many. You've got so many hours of being
on duty in you and so many calls. Do you want
to get them all in in 10 years or do you want
to spread them out over 30? Because you're going
to burn out. And you see it. A lot of people
can handle it for a few years, but it catches
up to them. It catches up to them. And I know
a bunch of folks that work for two departments
or they work for an EMS. and a fire department
might be private sometimes it's even not emergency
transport stuff but it's like get out of that
do something different because it's uh it'll
it'll clear your mind it's funny because that
conversation has come up and i had this you know
it was kind of out of arrogance when i heard
it early on because i've been you know as as
this my understanding has evolved that became
clearer and clearer to be the solution and then
when you realize that the entire northeast works
this this work week already and you know you
don't you don't hear dc guys going oh i don't
go to work enough that's their norm they just
go to work and then they do things outside um
but i think that it's not one or the other you
know this oh if we just give them more time off
they'll just work more you hear that from people
where there's woefully amount of of overtime
it's it's poorly managed it's poorly staffed
and therefore yes the overtime is mandatory usually
and i i was part of that even in anaheim so we
hired the class behind me we were just getting
murdered and then orange county non -stop and
you know the last place i worked is when it finally
tapered off a bit um but I agree with you 100%.
And if you look at it from the performance point
of view, the guys listening that are all out
with their fitness, with their taking classes
and search training and all the other things,
it would be like saying, well, I'm going to play
for the Rams and the Giants. But I'm not training
for the Rams. I'm going to go play for the Giants
and vice versa. You would never do that as an
athlete. You're all in on that one team. And
then what's in between is your rest and recovery
and training. And obviously the other things
are important, time with the family and taking
care of your home. But I agree with you a thousand
percent. I think it just should be as simple
as having it in writing when you're hired by
a department. There's no problem with you working
on your days off as long as you are not working
overnight continuously. So don't work in the
ER. Don't take a private ambulance job. Don't
go work for another fire department. But be an
entrepreneur, create a second business. What
happens if there's some catastrophe and you get
laid off as a firefighter, or you get hurt and
your identity has been shifted now? Now you have
this landscaping business, this personal training,
this whatever you're doing on the side. And now
it's an absolute compliment to the fire service.
And that way, if you want extra money, or in
some cases need extra money because of the pay
that you get, you're solving that issue without...
killing yourself in the process. So I think you
always hear one or the other. And the answer
is yes to both in the middle. Yeah. Don't work
overnight on your second job, but at the same
time, be an entrepreneur, forge that second passion,
because as you alluded to, that's another tribe,
another identity, and that will become an asset
to you as a firefighter. Right. And it can, it
can be fire service or EMS service related. Like
you can be an instructor. You could teach at
the academy during the day. Yeah. You know, um,
you can, can do conferences, teach at conferences,
things like that. Um, nothing wrong with that,
that, that keeps you in the, in the business
of what you know, but, uh, um, yeah, there's
just too many, too many people going for that
shift work. And, uh, and the shift work is so
tough on you. Just one, one agency. If you're
doing two. or multiple agencies uh it's insane
what are your perspectives on the dwindling recruitment
that we're seeing i came on um not long after
9 11 so obviously there was a big you know uptick
again very very competitive but i know you know
the 80s 90s were extremely competitive too so
in these four decades plus that you've watched
what are you what have you seen as far as recruitment
and retention and what are some other um kind
of ideas as far as addressing this and making
that list big again because i think one of the
most dangerous things and i hear it from so many
places is you know we have five vacancies and
we had seven applicants which means that you're
taking pretty much everyone that applies for
you which is not what this job is about yeah
and then when i when i uh applied for atlanta
you know there was 1200 for 40. or what have
you. Yeah, I actually talked about this in my
keynote at FDIC this year. And I honestly, I
think there's a couple of things going on. One
is, and you touched on it earlier, is there's
so much, there's so much of this, this is killing
us, that's killing us. You're going to get cancer.
You know, everybody's going to die. There's so
much of that out there that that that turns that
turns people off. And there's not enough talk
about the positive side because there's other
professions where there's exposures and and risk
and mental health issues and all that, too. But
we're just we're focused on on ourself. I honestly.
I think, though, that the biggest issue is it
all boils down to leadership. And it usually
always does, is that your biggest recruiting
arm of your department is your existing employees.
And it always has been. Obviously, you needed
to reach out to groups that weren't represented
in the departments. There needs to be special
efforts to reach out to new groups all the time,
but that's where your real recruiting efforts
and money should need to be spent, not on getting
your base level of employees because it's tell
a friend. I mean, it's like, man, you need to
think about coming on the fire department. I
know you got this going on, but man, it's awesome.
That's the way 90 % of the people came on the
fire department. They had a friend on the fire
department, a relative on the fire department,
and they told them how awesome it was. But as
the leadership changed and we had poorer and
poorer leadership, that changed and people in
your organization are telling people not to come
to my department. Maybe go to maybe they know
of another department that appears better or
whatever. They'll say, I would apply over here,
but not over here where you still was like, man,
put your application here, here, here. And whoever
takes you, that's where you need to go. You know,
but I honestly think it's a it's a leadership
problem. You know, the the the fire chiefs. need
to be the number one cheerleader for their organization
and they need to be out there and they have to
let their guys do the job that they were hired
for and not be so risk averse and afraid. I think,
and that's part of the reason that you lost your
internal people as recruiters. They're like,
you know, we can't do anything anymore. And the
departments that have realized that they don't
have recruiting problems. They have tons of applicants.
There's people moving across the country to work
at those departments. Unfortunately, there's
not many of them, but it's slowly, slowly going
full circle. And I think we'll see a rise. I
mean, the stats are out there on the military
was having the same problems. You know, there's
been a, been a big change, whether you agree
with the politics or not, there has been a huge
change in recruiting is up drastically in the
military. Um, and it's the same, it's the same
mentality for the fire department. You gotta,
you gotta, the new generation wants more than
anything to be a part of something and they want
value. They want belonging. And the fire department
can give them that under the right leadership.
But you got to win. You got to win recruiting.
You got to win your existing employees first.
There's no gadget or trinket or slogan that's
going to bring them in. And you can throw all
the money at it at the world. And it's temporary.
You know. We talked about the overtime. We're
all dogs. However much food you put in the bowl,
we'll eat and we'll keep eating and we'll keep
eating. If you throw out a $40 ,000 signing bonus,
your recruitment numbers are going to go up temporarily,
but they're not going to stay more than a couple
of years because they're going to get aggravated
with whatever it is you're doing to have to offer
a $40 ,000 recruitment. You want to recruit people?
Let them fight fire and give them a lot of training
and have decent equipment and a good schedule
and decent benefits. You don't have to have the
best, but if you have that culture piece, you
don't have to be the highest paid. If you have
the culture piece down and there's a clear path
to advancement, You know, sense of I'm going
to take care of you if something happens. I got
your back. If that's there, you won't have a
problem keeping people. That, you know, kind
of multi -generational. commitment to the fire
service or the military here, the same thing.
I hear this over and over again, that that used
to be our greatest recruitment tool, as you said,
whether it was our own family or our friend group.
And you're hearing that diminishing now and circling
around to what you're saying as far as the doom
and gloom message from our department. I couldn't
agree more. And this is why I fight tooth and
nail to bring solutions. It's like, we don't
have to just accept these stats. Like these are
preventable. We don't need to be known to. be
on our third marriage and an alcohol problem
after 10 years. That's not normal. You wouldn't
join a grocery store if that was their recruiting
tool. But what was interesting, I had a couple
of firefighters, a few firefighter spouses together
on a while ago. And one of them was talking about
one of their sons was all in on the fire service.
He had, you know, the outfit he had, you know,
would play with the hose in the back. And then
fast forward a few years now, he's a teenager.
And they happened to say, so are you looking
to go in the fire service? And he was like, hell
no. And they said, well, okay, well, why not?
And he said, because dad's never home. He didn't
say, I don't want to go into fires. He didn't
say, I'm scared of cancer. He didn't say, I don't
want to see guts and gore. He said, my dad is
never here. And I think that's the distinction
between what we're alluding to with the 2472
that's happening here in Florida. These young
people are in tune, and they want to be all in
on whatever profession they're in, but they value
their time at home. They value their mental health.
They value their relationships, and as should
have we. But we went in blindly, beating our
chest, because no one knew otherwise at that
time. But I think when you separate the two things
and advocating for a healthy work week that allows
a firefighter EMT or paramedic to operate at
the highest possible level and own their fitness
and have a reduced incidence of injury and, you
know, high mental acuity. That's pushing the
job to another level completely and being even
more proud and a higher performer. But sticking
our head in the sand and allowing our people
to be worked into the ground, that's never the
job. That was never the job. As you said, that's
poor mismanagement of staffing. That's nothing
to do with being a firefighter, being a paramedic.
But you want to create a burnt out firefighter,
work them 56 hours a week and then tell them
at 7 o 'clock in the morning they can't go home
to their children. That's how you fuck up the
fire service. So I think this is what's beautiful
about this discussion. is when we fix the things
that are broken, and I would argue the 42 -hour
workweek is essential and ultimately should become
a national standard, we're going to attract a
lot of incredible applicants. And I've heard
this over and over again. The fit candidates
that we have today are fitter than your generation,
they're fitter than my generation, because strength
and conditioning and nutrition has advanced even
more. So we've got some incredible people out
there. And if we can just show them that we care
enough that when we say they're supposed to go
home, they go home, aside from an earthquake,
a hurricane, a mass shooting, when we're all
hands, I think we're going to see a complete
reversal. Because 10 years ago, it was still
competitive. So when we have this conversation
about recruitment, it's like, understand, this
is only 10 years that this has devolved down
to where we are now. So we can turn it around.
We have to change the things that are broken.
I think this is what's exciting. And that's,
I think, then how you turn that culture around.
And then you can have that simultaneous conversation
about fitness standards and high levels of intense
training. Because we've always talked about how
do we stop us dying? If you talk to strength
and conditioning coaches and nutritionists that
work with special operations, they're talking
about performance. So how can we get James Gearing
to put 100 pounds of gear on his back? go 20
floors and then have the aerobic capacity to
do a primary search and then maybe pull someone
all the way back down. So it's a very exciting
conversation, this work week. But people have
to own the fact that for the last 10 plus years,
they've buried their head in the sand and they
are responsible for this crisis. And so they
have to find the courage to say, we were wrong.
We were doing it the wrong way. The money is
there downstream from all the mandatory overtime
that we're bleeding. We have to put it front
loaded, invest in our people. And I guarantee
you, you'll see recruitment shoot back up again.
Yep. I think schedule is going to be a huge part
in the urban environments. Getting a handle on
the medical calls is going to be a big thing.
I just wrote about that recently is that it's
no longer the emergency medical services, the
medical service and all of the needless. calls
adds into that just burnout, um, where you're
going into those multiple calls. And when I see
some of these different shifts, uh, what's the
new one that everybody was going to like the
last couple of years, like a 96, 96 or what have
you. And I'm like, how in the hell? And, and,
you know, some people say they love it and all,
but like, there's no way in our, in, in the department
I worked in that that would work. Like it would,
I guess, well, I say it wouldn't depend on what
station you were at, but like it could not work
at a busy station because you're looking at by
the end of your shift, you being on 60 calls
in two days. Yep. And granted, not every one
of them was a fire or whatever, but like just
that constant in and out and broken sleep. If
you got any sleep at all, your decision making
ability would be like you were. massively poisoned
with with carbon monoxide you know it would be
horrible so uh that one's that's one folks got
to be careful with um for sure if you're running
a lot of calls that's not a schedule you want
to work no well i've said two things firstly
the people that agree and good good organizations
or oppose firefighters working less than 56 those
people go home at five o 'clock and work 40 hours
So for the firefighters, think about that. The
people that say you can't work 16 hours less
than you and don't have to stay up all night.
The second thing is to, when you actually unpack
it, you say, okay, I'm on a 24, 48, we're going
to go to a 48, 96. So to make my life better,
we're going to go from a 56 hour work week to
a 56 hour work week. Now I'm no mathematician,
but that sounds pretty shit to me. So, you know,
you have to look at the number of hours, you
know, why do you not deserve to go home the same
as the. baker and the butcher and the candlestick
maker and everyone else in your community you
know we we are asked to do so much with so little
if ever there was a profession that needed the
rest and recovery it is police fire and ems and
the police are working 40 yeah for the same salary
we always say oh we compare with the police like
have you have you talked to that you work six
you guys get to sleep you guys get to sleep yeah
i've worked uh I did work the 24 -48 with a,
I think it was a nine shift Kelly day. That wasn't
too bad. And then some do a seven shift Kelly
day. So it basically gives you, you know, a full
week off every three weeks. That was a decent
schedule when I was young too. So there's some
creative ways to. to get those hours in, in different
places. And then again, it may be like we said,
it's like, if you look at budget wise, um, adding
a shift and maintaining your staffing levels
is like any effort you make to make it better.
Even if you gradually step into a big change
like that is going to send a message that you
actually give a shit about your people, you know?
But going through that mandatory overtime, so
you can't recruit, you can't recruit and you
can't hire people and you can't train them fast
enough. So you're ineffective, you're inefficient.
And so you make your existing people work more
on those mandatory overtime. And, you know, there
was 20 % of the people that loved it because
they were the same people that worked every day
overtime anyway. But then there was 80 % that
absolutely hated it because you couldn't plan
and schedule. Yeah, I would argue as well. A
lot of the overtime whores that we're aware of,
you know, especially, I mean, it's one thing
if you're 21 years old, single, you know, nothing
to do. But I mean, if anyone who has a family,
you've really got to ask yourself, why do I not
want to go home? And I would argue that some,
you know. Looking inside and some therapy would
probably change your outlook on being at the
fire station all the time. It was a great little
Facebook post or Instagram reel I saw this morning.
What was the movie? Jodie Foster and... Silence
of the Lambs. Silence of the Lambs. What was
his name? Hannibal Lecter. Hannibal Lecter. It
says... Coming back to the fire station and seeing
that same dude that never turns in overtime day
down. And it was like walking in and it was that
scene where they're just panning through the
cell and you see him standing there. It's like,
it's so true. It's like you do. And as a battalion
chief having to hire overtime. It was like, you'd
go down your list. You're like, you knew who
was going to say no. And you knew who was going
to say yes. And the aides sometimes would get
tripped up because they would just be like, to
hell with this. Like, why am I going to call
20 numbers? And I know every one of them is going
to turn it down. I know this guy's going to work.
So I'm just going to call this guy. And so they
call that guy. He comes to work. And then there
was one guy in that 20 that decided he wanted
to work overtime. And he's like filing a grievance
because they didn't call me. You've turned it
down 50 times, but they didn't call you that
one week. So it was tough. Well, what's interesting,
if you look at Plano, Texas, it just became the
first department in Texas to go to 2472. The
way they're doing it is they are using a ladder
system. So the first year, they're going to create
a six -week Kelly, second year, a three -week
Kelly, third year, 2472 with debit days, fourth
year, fully staffed. But they've announced that
that is the plan. Just like you said, we are
committing to this. And in Pasco County, you're
going to go to it in January. That was two and
a half years. It became two years. But they said
we are going to this. It doesn't have to be overnight.
Like you said, that switch doesn't have to be
flipped. But you can't turn that battleship around
without starting to turn the steering wheel either.
But what they've done, and this is the misnomer
with Kelly days, is if you just say, we're going
to go to Kelly, well, you've just punched more
holes in the staffing that people are going to
work at time and a half. So you've added more
overtime costs too. But if you hire classes that
then will cover those Kelly days on your way
to this 24 -72, that becomes beautiful. All right,
one class is now covering a six -week Kelly,
then a three -week, then this D -shift, and then
people are kind of still working a few debit
days, and then... year four they're fully fully
staffed so the kelly can be used if it's a rung
on the ladder to this but if you're not saying
we are the end goal will be not might be will
be a 24 72 you're not going to have those people
testing with you because a kelly on its own really
makes nothing better they end up working their
own kelly day and they get paid time and a half
for it so cost more money no one gets any extra
time off yeah Yep. I've done that too. So has
I in reading Greek. Well, an interesting - If
New York, I think New York has a 12 hour or 10,
14 or whatever, but they always pair up with
somebody and it ends up being a 24, 72. Isn't
that right? Yeah. Yeah. And this is what's crazy.
Boston, you know, which I believe is where our
IFF leadership are from. They work, you know,
42 hour work week, 24, 72. DC does. But where
is the conversation of what we need to advocate
for the rest of the profession? They do the same
exact job as us. Why are they not working what
we work? So that's a voice I wish I'd heard,
but I don't hear it yet, sadly. It's coming.
Like I said, once there's a couple that are getting
the publicity and word gets out, it'll happen.
It'll do the Ivy trick, I'm telling you. All
right. Well, another interesting thing that came
out of this whole conversation, which should
be, you know, great to get your perspective on.
As Gainesville went to the 2472, where the challenge
is, and it's not an issue at all, it's just going
to take a bit longer because we're undoing, as
we mentioned, 10, 20 years worth of damage. You
see a lot of these departments are young, you
know, 50 % have got five years or less because
of the lack of attention in a lot of areas. So
the promotional, you know, you don't want to
push a guy through with a year and a half on
to a lieutenant's spot, for example. So they
were actually considering laterals and the conversation
then came up about reciprocity. We, as you mentioned,
there are idiosyncrasies for each state, each
area. I'm in the mountains. I'm by the ocean.
It's cold here. It's hot here, whatever. But
ultimately, it's still a hose is a hose, a ladder
is a ladder. What is your perspective on national
reciprocity? Of course, you can do a department
-specific orientation. You can still have a probation
so that if it's still a bad employee, it's still
a bad employee. but removing the barriers so
that firefighters from all over the country can
work in different states. I'm 100 % for it because
I think that forces the mayors and the commissioners
to go after the absolute best leaders to run
their departments if they want to keep their
people. I had a pension. I had a defined benefit
pension that kept me in check. You know, it was
good enough for me to put up with a lot of stuff.
And I was like, I'm not giving up this because
I know what the payout is going to be in the
end. Had it not been for that, which guys don't
have anymore. You know, there are several places
that I would have looked at, you know, going
to if I didn't have to start all over it, you
know, 20 years in the. in the service. Um, so
yeah, I think it's good. We always thought it
was stupid that you had to start all over. You,
you can go chief to chief, you know, they'll
hire and you could be, you can have the title
chief in a five person department and get hired
as a chief in a 200 person department, but you
can't go from a firefighter and a 5 ,000 member.
and be a firefighter in a five -member department.
That was crazy. And I know there were some efforts
with the standards and the pro boards and all
that for making certifications like that. But
again, it's egos. I know that there's actually
a push for national certification right now with
a group that I've talked to. I think it may be
a good time to strike with that because of the
recruiting issue. And I know talking to some
chiefs in Florida, one of the things they found
when they did their study a few years ago was
that even though a department may win, look like
they're winning, all they're doing is robbing
from the same pool. So it's like there's only
so many people interested right now. And, um,
if, if, you know, the city of Miami hires 30,
well, they've probably taken 20 from a County
somewhere close by that has three to five years
old and they're pulling them. Now it's creating
a vacancy there. And those departments, like
they consider themselves a, uh, a training department
to go somewhere else. But, uh, I think, I think
it would be good. good for the fire service to
have that ability that portability and uh um
and again i think the uh consequences would be
it would expose um it would expose the bad leadership
even more yeah it's interesting with me what
you just said as far as a comment because uh
the former chief turn deputy city manager of
plano sam greif make sure to spell that right
um was saying that he was kind of being uh lauded
by the chiefs around him, like, oh, you're going
to take our people. Well, firstly, Plano, from
what I understand, I know Pasco County, they
were the stepping stone departments. So firstly,
they finally get their turn to get some of the
recruits because they kept losing them to these
other departments that are now complaining. Secondly,
if you take a step back to what we were talking
about earlier, when we were testing against thousands
of people for a handful of jobs, that's how it
used to be. So the goal isn't to pinch people's
firefighters. It's to inspire the entire young
generation to come into the profession. Someone
told me that apparently in Florida, I think it
was 20%. It might have even been 30. It might
be 30%. Either way, a large percentage of certified
Florida firefighters are not working as firefighters.
So that in itself, you have a pool. you know,
myself included at the moment, even though it's
lapsed because of that ridiculous, you know,
whatever it is, three -year thing, like I'm going
to forget how to pull a hose. But, you know,
so you have that pull to pull from, but the ultimate
philosophy is the rising tide lifts all ships.
If Plano, Texas has the courage to actually be
the first ones to move, good for them. Good for
them. Who was the first department that put SCBAs
in? Who was the first department that put physical
fitness standards, that put mental health counseling?
I mean, you've got to have these first people
that then become thought leaders for everyone
to follow. Like you said, someone's got to plant
the ivy in the first place. So I think it's very
unfair for chiefs to start bitching about this
progressive shift change, for example, like,
oh, they're going to take our people. Like no
one said you didn't have to change too. If you
want to be part of that, you know, those thought
leaders, the first wave, then do exactly what
Gainesville and Plano and, you know, Pasco and
Boynton and all these other departments, Kissimmee,
have done. They just said, you know what? We're
just going to do it. That's it. That's all it
takes. Even reciprocity. Anaheim, when I worked
there, they were like, right, we'll take certs
from around the country. They took my cert as
a Florida firefighter. I worked in California
because they just went, it works for us. That
was it. End of story. So the power that you have
in a department to go along with this, because
all the tools are out there, you can make a change
and move forward. Or you can sit on your hands
and you can cry about how it's not fair that
someone else is doing it better than you. I think
it's awesome. I love challenging the status quo.
And the people that complain the loudest are
usually the ones that are most attached to the
status quo. It's true in life. What's really
funny is some of those chiefs that are complaining
the most are probably the ones that complain
about their guys not wanting to change. It's
interesting. A good friend of mine implemented
a policy in his department to where he was having
recruitment problems. You know, they started
surveying folks and finding out what the deal
was. And the biggest deal was they didn't want
to ride the ambulance. They wanted to be fire
only, and they didn't want to ride the ambulance.
So he put a new program in and hired medics to
ride the ambulances. And if they wanted to do
fire, they could. They could train and go to
recruit school and become cross -trained, but
they didn't have to. That department has no issues
recruiting. Yeah. And, uh, and that chief got
hate mail and you're ruining the fire service.
You're destroying what it took us years to build.
And, you know, it's like, you're dude, you pick
a model that works, pick a model that works.
He found something that worked for his department
that may not work everywhere. But it worked for
his department. So why are you going to attack
him? Probably because folks jumped ship and went
to his department. Yeah, exactly. Actions speak
louder than words. Yeah, you're a threat when
you're an innovator, when you're on the front
lines of that stuff. There used to be a saying
that the pioneers took all the arrows because
they were the first ones to forge out into the
West. And that was the Wild West with the Indians.
And they got attacked, you know, because they
were outsiders. They were different. And there's
a lot of truth to that. And I've seen it my whole
career. Anything that's different from the norm
creates that adversity and folks are comfortable
in their positions. It's a threat to them. That
change is a threat to what they have going on.
And it's a threat in some ways, like a schedule
change. The thread is maybe they'll lose some
people to that department. But I think the bigger
resistance is it takes work to make it happen.
You got to go and meet and you got to sell it.
You got to research and know your facts and you
got to go sell it. It's much easier just to come
to work and clock out at five, you know, and
keep doing what you've done for 30 years and
just keep it rolling. And, you know, those folks
are the ones that need to retire. Yeah. I've
always said, you know, if when we didn't understand
all of this, this information, then I give you
a pass. Absolutely. Once like now the information,
just my podcast alone with all the people like
yourself that have been on there, you know, and
all the free resources now I have on this topic
specifically. Now that is out there. And you
still refuse to. And locally, I mean, we had
the Florida fire chiefs put out an email saying
that they opposed the 42 hour work week. That
was their official stance after Governor DeSantis
signed the bill. You know, locally here where
I live, the county that protects my family, they've
had six suicides in, you know, a handful of years,
five years, whatever it's been. And so my thing
is this, if you have all this information and
you refuse to do nothing, then don't show up
at the funeral. Don't put your class A's on.
and pretend that you actually give a shit because
you don't. Because someone who actually cares
would be at the absolute forefront searching
the corners of the earth for ways to resolve
the issues that are affecting your people. Yeah.
And if you don't like that solution, here's a
solution I'm handing you. Here's a solution with
the research. If you don't like that one, come
up with a better one. You're not afraid of somebody
coming up with something better, are you? Yep.
A hundred percent. Yeah. Figure out a better
one, you know, but yeah. Well, messengers are
going to get shot. So don't give up. Just keep
plugging away. I'm telling you, just, you just
keep plugging. One of my favorite, uh, favorite
old sayings that I had to use all the time was
he who sits by the river long enough, sees the
body of his enemy float by. There we go. Yeah.
There's one that came across recently, Desmond
Tutu, and I love this. This pertains completely
to what we discussed. We spend so much time pulling
bodies out the river, we forget to go upstream
to find out why they're falling in in the first
place. So two river analogies side by side. Yep.
Dina Ali put that in her book. That was like
kind of her opening. It's 100 % true. Great analogy.
Absolutely. Well, I want to shift to make sure
we spend some time on FDIC. So I actually had
Chief Bobby Holton on. a long time ago and it
was quite an entertaining uh conversation because
he didn't understand that i start early life
which we did our first conversation you know
walk through and yeah the the guard went up and
we laughed about it i mean we we talked and uh
you know uh revisited it a couple years later
but it was a great conversation um and then obviously
sadly we lost him recently so you mentioned about
being brought on kind of walk me through that
you know losing bobby and then you know what
you're doing now as far as the next kind of metamorphosis
of FDIC. Yep. So he brought me on full time in
August of, I guess it was 22. Yeah, I think it
was 22. I can't remember dates too good. And
so the plan was he was going to work about three
years and then turn everything over to me. And
I would have time to learn the publishing business,
the media business, because I knew the FDIC side
because I'd been running the training at FDIC
for years and working in the system for probably
20 years at the time, 22, I think. So I started
as an instructor and then worked my way into
the hands -on training. management and the logistics
side of it, the planning side. And also I wasn't,
you know, just fresh coming in. And, uh, so he
was teaching me about the media, you know, the
media side of it, which is two print publications,
four websites, um, couple LMS, um, deals, and
then FDIC as a, as a whole. And, uh, it was a
great plan. And he hired me in August, and then
he unfortunately passed away in December of the
same year. And I'd worked with him for the entire
time he had been at Pinwell and then Clarion
after the sale. And so we had worked together
very close for those 20 plus years. And it was
one of those where it was like, tag, you're it.
And so it started out, I was editor -in -chief
of fire engineering and then the education director
of FDIC. And then we had a scramble from December
to be ready for April opening ceremonies, new
thing, because Bobby already had his deal already
mapped out of what he was going to do. So we
got through that year, which was a blur. And
then I actually got... promoted inside the company
to vice president of education and sort of the
group editor. So I had all the brands. So it
wasn't just fire engineering. It was gyms, firefighter
nation and fire apparatus. And over the last
couple of years, we've added some folks and I've
actually got editors now for for each of the
brands where we only had fire apparatus covered
fully. And we had a web editor for gyms, and
then we brought on an editor, a development editor
for gyms. We brought on and rebranded Firefighter
Nation to just deal with mental health, physical
wellness, and culture, anything culture -related,
lifestyle, firefighter finances. And that went
from just an old blog platform to being its own
identity and brand now with Stephanie White.
And actually, I just got her full time day before
yesterday. So I've got a full time editor there.
And so that mission's really, really growing.
But yeah, it's been a hell of a learning curve,
kind of learning the corporate side of the world.
still staying true to the educational piece and,
and FDIC. And it's really, it's really two, two
jobs, but like everywhere, it's like, you know,
we're, we're all, we're short staff too. So having
FDIC and having all the media brands is a lot,
but the FDIC side, you know, we got a great team
with our advisory board and we have more submissions
than ever coming in. Um, I think, uh, I remember
five, six years ago, we'd have about 800 submissions
and then they went to a thousand and then we
were like 1170 this year. And, uh, it was kind
of like that recruiting thing. It's like, I think
we've really created a lot of excitement around
FDIC. We've added a lot of, uh, hands -on training
sessions for this coming year. Last year, we
branched out from Monday, Tuesday only for pre
-con and hands -on to we did hands -on all week
at a limited capacity. And we're going to do
even more. We're going to do live fire training
into the week now. So there'll be live fire Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. So
there'll be students being bussed out. We've
increased the amount of hands -on training positions.
So when I say position, that's an individual
taking one class. In 2026, from three years ago,
we will have increased those positions by over
2 ,000 positions, getting close to three, and
they all are selling out. So that tells you the
demand for hands -on training. And obviously,
live fire sells out. very quick. The registration
opens earlier and earlier every year, so it's
opening the first week of October, and the show's
big. We got a few new things planned. One, we
dropped the second day of opening ceremonies,
and that was a decision I made because I wanted
to add a full four hours of classrooms. which
allowed me another 20, 30 classes that I could
use in that time. And I think, you know, I love
the pageantry of open ceremonies and the bagpipes
and the keynotes, but I didn't think it made
sense to do it twice. And I think people come
there for the training. They do come there and
they enjoy the opening ceremonies, but I think
that we're better using that four -hour block.
with class classes and hands -on and all that
so we made that shift so we'll go back to a two
-hour opening instead of an hour and a half and
still try to get everything in the awards and
all that and then i'm putting in a new thing
in 2026 called hits and it's it's high intensity
training sessions and uh there'll be four sessions
that are four hours each and in a four hour session
you will see 10 speakers Instead of the hour
45 format where you would get two speakers in
that same time frame, you're going to be able
to go into this room. It'll be super high energy
and it'll be short 20 minute educational sections.
And each section will have tactics. It'll have
leadership. It'll have mental health and it'll
have nutrition. And so we're hitting all four
of those topics in a four hour session. I think
it's going to be a good format. I think the younger
people digest the 20 -minute sessions a lot more.
They enjoy it a lot more. If you've got ADHD
or ADD, it's a session for you because we'll
have a lot of music and a lot of good intros,
but it's going to be a fun room, but still it's
educational. It'll be a little entertainment,
a little education. I've actually got an instructor
comedian who will be in each session to kind
of break up the middle, have a little humor there
in the middle, but he'll still have a lesson
as well. So that's going to be fun. And then
that live fire through the week is a huge challenge
for our team. attendees want more live fire so
that's the only way i could give it to them because
i'm limited on the number of breathing apparatus
i have and so the only way to do more is to spread
it out among more days so well it makes a lot
of sense and it circles around again to like
you said that balance between classroom education
and real hands -on training i think that's what
the uh orlando fired uh conference did very well
was i did like eric wheaton's um uh oh my goodness
vent class um vent can confidence yeah no not
the cam the event and a search yeah oh yeah yeah
amazing amazing class um this is kind of right
the tail end of my career before i transitioned
out to do this fully but um but yeah but then
they had i think they had the 10 for 10 they
called it there where it was short you know um
presentations and i think that's the problem
is sometimes people turn a 10 at 10 minute presentation
into two hours and kind of just hitting the same
thing over and over again so some might take
a long time to really you know extrapolate and
some may well be a perfect fit for a 10 or 20
minute class yeah it's going to be fun and it's
uh like i said it'll be high energy um we're
going to set it up and make it look like a theater
type setting um which i you know kind of took
from some of these smaller I love when somebody
has a conference in an old, small town, but they
have the old theater, you know, and you just
have that just gorgeous architecture, the uplighting
on the sides and the big stage. So we're going
to recreate that. We won't be able to totally
recreate it with the sloped floor and all that,
but we're going to kind of recreate that feel
in that room. So it kind of gives that intimate,
small theater. type setting. And, uh, it's going
to be a lot of, uh, a lot of fun, but, uh, but
educational as well. And then we've got tons
of stuff in Lucas oil. Now we've been, we've
sort of transitioned that area into very interactive.
So we, we created the drill yard a couple of
years ago and we've totally redone all of our
EMS, uh, education, bringing in some really big
names in the EMS education and, um, Where we
have the drill yard and we have a couple of burn
buildings and a tower and some other props and
folks are able to actually do evolutions and
do training in those areas. We're going to do
that for the EMS section, too. It'll be a continuation.
So you're going to see some we're calling it
Sim City. And so there'll be all these interactive
simulations and role play. You know, there may
be a. an accident, a vehicle accident set up
with an upside down car, but a live victim in
it. And the live victim may have props that like,
you know, attached to your arm where you can
start an IV and, uh, and it'd be very, very interactive.
Um, so, uh, try to bring that hands -on element
to the EMS side as well with the, with the gyms,
uh, formatting. And then we've got summits. Uh,
we've got industrial fire summit we've got aircraft
uh fire summit we've got metro um metro officers
we've got um the ems summit and gosh i think
i missed oh a technology summit that is all dealing
with like the newest latest technology and all
those are happening some of them have demo um,
components to them and speakers, but that's,
that's an area where we're really growing and,
uh, continuing to add more and more of those,
uh, summits that are niche summits. Those are
like a hundred, 150 people, you know, in, in
that group, but it's peer to peer, peer education,
peer, they designed it all themselves. We just
kind of give them the, the platform to meet and,
uh, and assemble there. And then on top of that,
we've got the air force. Education piece, they
do their training there. We've got the DOD. We've
got the North American training directors that
come. We've got the fire academy alumni meets
there. It's all encompassing. I mean, I always
say it's where the entire fire service comes
together. Manufacturing, tactics. Education,
everything is in that one place. And we went
over 37 ,000 last year. And we can't wait for
the new hotel to open because we need more room.
And we got another, we won't be open in 26, but
in 27, we'll have a new hotel and some more ballrooms
and some more room to even add some more stuff.
So we're constantly reinventing ourselves. Looking
for new opportunities, new content delivery.
And also conscious with one of the reasons we
did the drill yard is that we know how expensive
it is. And of course, a lot of that's out of
our control. That's hotel and travel and some
of that stuff. But, you know, we had some people
that said, you know, it's just too expensive
and all. And so we've created training opportunities
for people. that just buy a exhibit pass. And
so if you're in the exhibit hall, there's education
going on. You're able to participate in, in some
of that. Now it's not to the level of a hands
-on live fire class on Monday, Tuesday or offsite
type deal, but it's still an opportunity to get
some hands -on, um, training with equipment.
So try to think of everything, man. That's a
lot. Sounds amazing. It really does. Speaking
of the exhibit hall, what are some of the innovations
that you're excited about on the technical side?
I've made this comment many times. I don't know
if you can see it from my shoulder there. There's
the blueprint for the American Fire Helmet. I
think it's dated 1937. So I believe that maybe
there's some possibility for innovation when
it comes to our headwear in the fire service.
I always kind of chuckle when I see people presenting
the same helmet as the latest and greatest. That
aside, there's obviously a lot of areas, drones
and other areas that are becoming extremely exciting.
So what technology wise are you seeing, you know,
protective equipment, you know, anything that's
exciting you as far as the next kind of phase
in the fire service? Actually just had a call
this week about a new helmet technology that
really makes the helmet super light. And it was
incorporating some hard hat. uh, technology into,
to fire helmet. Um, probably one of the biggest
push, like you said, is electronics is, uh, tracking
accountability, um, in any of the wearable type,
um, stuff. Uh, we just did a, uh, we just did
a piece on, uh, there's a wearable that, um,
wakes you up instead of the horn or whatever
it vibrates. And is that easy to learn? I can't
remember what the name of it was, but there's
one that'll shake the bed. There's one that you
wear on your wrist. So there's tons of that stuff.
Radios are incorporated into cell phones now.
And so that's interesting. And these are like
military grade, you know, intrinsically safe
cell phones that can. not only communicate over
the radio frequency, but also keep your location
and they can keep your location horizontal and
vertical. Now, so as you're getting smart cities
and more floor plans, you're seeing a lot of
integration into like the command software and
then the city infrastructure or Google Maps or
Google, you know, 3D. That kind of stuff. So
definitely a lot on the technology. Some some
of the drones have lift capabilities. You know,
last year we had the. The. Call it a drone, it's
really an airplane, but it was, you know, a personnel
delivery vehicle that. that doesn't require a
pilot's license. And so like for search and rescue,
you could get in this thing. It almost looks
like one of those old enclosed bicycle solar
deals that they used to have. It's like you get
in it and it's a, it's a drone. I mean, it's
four propellers and, and off you go. And it's
just a one person vehicle that can, you know,
you can deliver a rescuer. Somewhere in the woods
or are a long ways away fast. So things like
that are there. There's drone technology that
delivers defibrillators to the public. You know,
if you call 911, that's been around for a few
years, but it's gaining popularity. Just tons
of tracking, tracking your vital signs and temperature
upgrades. wearable shirts and things that can
transfer information back to a database that
can alert command if, you know, temperature gets
over a certain amount or your pulse rate gets
over a certain amount. I always feared as an
incident commander, information overload. And
so I think most of the companies realize that.
And these are things that run in the background
and then alert you, you know, when there's a
problem. That's cool. Some minor new technology
is out there. Obviously, PFAS being a big issue,
there's a lot of changes in gear. And those are
the biggest ones that I'm familiar with off the
top of my head. There are some remote vehicle,
like robot type things similar to the Bomb Squad.
deals that can actually have a hose attached
to it and go in and deliver water to you know
like an industrial fire or a big warehouse fire
or something crazy like that that you need that
access but uh technology's going man i think
the biggest thing is an information collection
the amount of data that's out there that can
be processed um nobody's in Nobody has invented
my dream invention yet, but I'm still waiting
on it. That'll be when we can pull up on the
scene and open a pouch of about 100 marble -sized
drones and robots, and we throw them in the front
door, and they search the house in about 15 seconds
and feed us data back to our face piece and tell
us exactly where to go to the victim. Well, I'm
waiting on that. That'd be amazing. I've always
said this is what it is. It's coming. Two innovations
would be a radio that works in an elevator and
gloves that you can actually tie a knot with.
Yeah. We're still wearing these pillows on our
hands. Yeah. I had Richard Browning on the show,
who's the English inventor of that kind of jet
pack. And he's holding one in each hand. But
they used it for a paramedic, kind of like a
wilderness rescue model, where the medic would
fly with an EMS bag on his back or her back.
fly up this mountain to, you know, this, this
hiker or whatever it was, um, and then could
do initial care. And then what he was saying
is because again, of FDA regulations or the same
person in the UK, um, you can't actually fly
down with the patient, but a drone could then
take the stretcher down to the rig, to the ambulance,
to the rescue. So, I mean, that was another really
exciting thing, whether you're in the enclosed
thing you're talking about or simply like a jet
pack where you're piloting it, you go to the
person, you initiate care, you package them,
you send them down to the receiving crew and
then off they go. So it's amazing the potential
where that can. factor in but obviously i don't
think there's any any danger of them removing
humans but like you said if you know exactly
where a person is on a primary and you're not
wasting time going to you know over fire where
you could fall through the roof or you know searching
rooms that are completely empty i mean that whether
that's a bunch of marvel -sized drones or whatever
that ends up looking like you know technology
to see through walls that would be a phenomenal
thing then the human beings go and actually pull
the person out yep there's a new uh There's a
new technology that is a couple of years old,
but some departments are actually testing it
now, like in the field and through your face
piece. It's thermal imaging, but it draws in.
all the gaps that you can't see so like it'll
draw all the straight lines and uh show outlines
of things so it gives you a better picture of
what you're looking at and it's great for uh
navigating you know through a building shows
you the stairs and all that stuff so that's another
one that's that's that's gone from prototype
to actually being in some departments right now
um So that's cool. And then you've got extinguishing
agents are changing, you know, there's stuff
for EV fires and, uh, you know, there's a lot
of new products out there, some great and some
not so great, but, but they're out there and,
uh, you know, they're experimenting and going
through testing and, um, you know, some people,
some people get a little upset at some of the
ones that aren't so great, but always look at
it as it's evolution. you know it's like maybe
it's not so great right now but it's the first
step in developing the thing that will be great
you know yeah absolutely just on that topic before
we kind of transition i got one more area i want
to throw at you quickly but just before we do
i've had a few conversations now about pfas and
i think the danger of the pfas conversation is
again we ignore all the other elements of the
carcinogenic including shift work which is the
biggest one And I've actually got a company that
I'm working with at the moment that are developing
a probiotic that will pull PFAS from a body.
And if that proves that it works in the human
trials, I think that's going to be revolutionary
for everyone, not just the firefighters. But
what I'm hearing is that some of these companies
are developing supposedly PFAS -free gear. Either
A, they're finding PFAS in it, which is not good,
or B... Because of the changing in technology,
it's not providing the same kind of safety and
fires than the old gear did. So what are you
seeing in that whole realm at the moment? Yeah,
there's always trade -offs. The biggest thing
is the chemicals that used the PFAS were the
repellents that kept the moisture. Yeah. It mainly
like it was, if you got diesel fuel spilled on
you, it wouldn't absorb, you know, it would,
it would repel. It made it like a water, like
a waterproofing type thing. That's why it's in
clothes. That's why it's in raincoats. It's in
everything. I mean, it's in water bottles, it's
everywhere. So, uh, um, uh, in the, in the, uh,
The foam industry, obviously, you know, was full
of it. So they were able to get rid of the foam.
And then they were going through and deconing
all the crash trucks and all that. And what was
interesting is the level to pass the decon thing
was so low that hardly anybody could meet it
because there was more than that in the air.
So you go through, you know, 40, $50 ,000 to
decon this truck and then you take a test and,
and it's still there because it's in the water.
It's, you know, you can't get away from it. So,
yeah, it's, it's interesting. I think there was,
there was some studies that showed the dust in
the fire stations had a higher level than a regular
place of business. But again, I always talk about
the extremes. Anything we can do to make it better
is good. But somebody who eats a bag of microwave
popcorn every day has a higher level of PFAS
in their system than anything else. So you're
not going to totally remove it from your life.
But if you can reduce your exposure to it. then
I think that's good. Get it out of the air, the
fire stations, do the best you can. But there's
going to be trade -offs, and the trade -off is
going to be that your gear is not going to hold
up as well. It'll still protect you, but it's
not going to last three or four years. It's going
to be frazzled and happen to be replaced more
often than it would be if it had it in it. There'll
be something else come along. I actually saw
a article posted where a, I believe it's a Chinese
company has come up with a new fabric that is
incredibly temperature resistant and is super,
super light. So there's already companies out
there working on things and something will come
along that'll shore it up. I guess for now, like
as much exposure as we can get away from, the
better. But again, back to education and knowing
the whole problem is like, don't jumping down
on your department because you got PFAS gear
and then be eating a bag of microwave popcorn
every day. Yeah, exactly. It's a bigger problem
than just turnout gear. It's a problem for everybody.
And we may have a higher level because of our
gear, but we're not going to totally eradicate
it from our diet and system. I did blood work
this company paid for. And this company has been
very, very clear. Like you also need to find
out what the levels are in your local drinking
water. So they're not trying to scaremonger on
fire alone by any means. But mine was like off
the charts. And my blood work is always great
in pretty much every area. But PFAS, it was like,
you know. I needed an extra screen to see where
it actually landed. It was so bad. But this is
kind of like with the shift work. It's like,
well, we have to be awake for 24 hours. We have
to be awake at night. That is a truth. So how
can we adapt? And we put a 24 -hour period extra
in between, 24 -72, and mitigate some of the
issues. If there's PFAS in our AFFF and our gear.
Well, then how can we start working on that?
And can we look at the nonstick pans in the station?
And, you know, as you said, maybe make, you know,
popcorn the old way. And so it's not that, you
know. it's not all or nothing with this conversation
but it's like right what can we address what
can we minimize and then again now if the fire
service has this conversation can we be a beacon
of light for the rest of the country and then
starting to understand as you said waterproof
gear and you know the the packaging for our food
and our drinks and then use this as a positive
mission to then start eradicating this because
i mean the origin story i had robbed a lot of
the show was you know corporate discuss you know
disgusting corporate actions and hiding the element
of this and the fact that it poisoned pretty
much the whole planet so as you said it's there
but what can we do now to reverse this can we
use probiotics to take it from our our gut can
we you know reduce the exposures and then you
know if it is in the fire service in certain
areas what is the technology that will replace
it down the road yep at least uh that was a pretty
fast conversation with that one i think it went
from first hearing about it to uh major change
in less than five five years yeah so and i've
talked to all the manufacturers of gear and and
for the most part um all of the new stuff is
highly highly reduced or not existent at all
you know now there's still stuff out there but
like in their in their plans you know for building
new gear that um They've removed it. And then,
you know, what's going to happen? The fire chiefs
are going to go nuts because gear only lasts
a year and they're used to it lasting 10 years.
Yep. Yep, exactly. You know, that could be a
change for exposure too. We talked about that
in one of our many meetings that I've been a
part of is what if gear becomes disposable? What
if technology makes it to where the gear is disposable?
Maybe parts of it are reusable, kind of like
the rockets. Maybe there's parts of it that can
be cleaned and reused, but there's other parts
that you just throw away. Yeah. I mean, it's
interesting when you look at other industries
that are around, you know, nuclear, biohazards,
all these things, and then you can put it side
by side with us. It's pretty ridiculous the way
that we certainly did it for a long time. And
then we'll have that whole cultural issue. That's
my coat. I've got to keep my coat. Even getting
the two Swedish firefighters on behind the Skelefe
model, the clean cab and all the pushback then.
And again, it's these extremes. We're not saying
it has to be surgical like an operating theater,
but should you be sitting in your gear while
it's off gassing in the cab? No. So there is,
again, a middle ground where, I mean, I was a
Tilleman in California, and so we didn't have
your pack in the cab. You had to throw it on.
And I realized, oh, we don't need to have our
packs in the cab. six seconds to throw it around
your back and snap it on. And that way, as you
alluded to earlier, there's a higher chance that
you're going to put your seatbelt on because
you're not screwing around with your pack in
the back and then you get into a fatal accident.
So I think that middle ground is where a lot
of the truth normally lies. Somebody said it
best when they were talking about cancer provision.
They were like, take a shower, wash your gear,
wash your pack. Is it? Yep, exactly. Well, one
more quick area before I let you go. I know we're
more than two hours now. The Guardian Center.
I actually ended up visiting that. At the time,
there was a Marine that was in charge of the
area. Scott was battling his cancer at the time,
so I'd originally gone to meet. was blown away
having worked like i said east and west coast
the the level of training that was possible in
that facility was absolutely mind -blowing so
talk to me again if we're talking about innovation
and trying to get our first responders to the
most realistic of training talk to me about that
facility and you know let's kind of you know
shed some light on it because i was so impressed
yeah and it's uh it was all privately done um
he had a very wealthy uh I believe he was from
Texas that got interested in the site. And this
was an old military. Well, it was an old Northrop
Grumman site and where they built missiles and
close to the Air Force base. And it never actually
got into production because they couldn't meet
a lot of the standards. So it was a huge piece
of property sitting there. And this guy had a
dream to build this massive. Um, training center
that could be used by the military, fire departments,
police departments, EMS. And, uh, it was kind
of a post nine 11 type dream, you know, seeing
the need for it. And, uh, it's Disney world.
I mean, it is, uh, it's unbelievable that the,
uh, the props are there and it's, it's basically
for rent to anybody that, uh, wants to use it.
It's not necessarily that you sign up for classes
and go there. It's more for agencies to lease
it and bring their instructors and their folks.
I know Special Forces uses it all the time. There's
collapsed buildings. There's a small little neighborhood
that can be flooded for a water rescue. There's
a subway with tracks and subway cars, multi -car
pileups. There's residential houses, commercial
buildings. There's several mock city blocks that
are full -size buildings where the military can
do close quarters combat. Police can do SWAT
training. Fire departments can do gas leaks,
structure fires, building collapse, confined
space. I actually filmed 13. technical rescue
training minutes there in august probably 10
years ago and it was the hottest i think i've
ever been in my life um but yeah we had a full
film crew down there and we filmed for two or
three days straight and uh we still have those
up on on fire engineering training minutes but
it it's it's phenomenal and it's uh it just goes
to show it's like Back to innovation. I mean,
when you look and you can you can Google it and
see pictures of these these buildings. I don't
know of another training center that has that
level of variety of scenarios that are that realistic,
like collapsed buildings. And it's not just one
type. It's like a metal collapsed building, a
concrete collapsed building, a residential collapsed
building. And it's just, it's, it's phenomenal.
So it's definitely worth checking out. If you've
got a, if you've got a team that, that needs
to go in a realistic environment and train somewhere,
it's definitely a place to go, but don't go,
don't go in August since South Georgia. I wish
I could remember the name of the gentleman that
showed me around. Mike is popping in my head.
Scott Brantley, I think, was the one I was originally
meeting. Yeah, Scott was there and actually is
in some of those videos with me. Okay. Yeah,
one of the things that was interesting was telling
me, though, and I think this is in a military
sense, but they even had the ability to use real
human cadavers, like whole human beings. Now,
I don't know how you sign up to donate yourself
to be used as a dead person in the Guardian Center,
but yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, we actually
have full cadavers at FDIC too. Oh, really? Yeah,
we have the actual cadaver lab. So yeah, those
are people that donated their body to science.
Brilliant. Well, for people listening, let's
go to FDIC first. If they want to register for
this year, if they just want to learn more about
it, where are the best places online for that
and fire engineering? So FDIC .com. website is
is up registration goes live on october 6th and
uh multiple options we've tried to we got group
discounts uh a la carte you know however you
want to however you want to do it um to try to
fit your budget um we do have an all -inclusive
package now this made it easier for departments
that wanted to do hot and the regular conference
and uh with that Typically, you would only get
16 hours of training, but that all -inclusive
package gives you 20 hours of hands -on or workshop
premium training. And fireengineering, still
fireengineering .com. You can subscribe for print
magazine, digital magazine. You can subscribe
to newsletters and get updates three or four
times a week with links to like the most popular
articles. And then each of the other brands,
firefighternation .com, gems .com, fireapparatus
.com. Just tons of content going out every day
that is, you know, written by. SMEs in the field,
they're firefighters and mechanics and, uh, mental
health folks and, uh, medics that are out there
doing the job, um, every day and sharing their
experiences and, and trying to keep, uh, everybody
on the, on the know of what's the latest and
greatest and what's working and what's not working.
And what about yourself? If people want to reach
out to you, social media, et cetera. Yeah. I'm
on Instagram, Facebook, just Chief David Rhodes.
And my personal Facebook is full because a lot
of fire people are on there too. So it won't
let me take anybody else. It caps off at about
5 ,000, I think. But you can follow me at Chief
David Rhodes on Facebook and on Instagram and
on X. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so
much. It's been such an amazing conversation.
So much has obviously happened and changed since
the last time we spoke. But with your kind of,
you know, respected veteran perspective on a
lot of the issues that we've unpacked, I'm sure
it's going to resonate deeply with a lot of people
that listen. So I want to thank you so much for
being so generous with your time and coming back
on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank
you, man. And thank you for what you're doing.
Keep it up.