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don't qualify, there is still the 10 % off using

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the code BTN. Welcome to the Behind the Shield

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podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing.

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And this week, it is my absolute honor to welcome

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on the show, former fire chief turned deputy

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city manager of Plano, Texas, Sam Greif. Now,

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for those of you who have been following this

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for any amount of time, you will know I am extremely

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passionate about making a healthy firefighter

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work week. And Plano, Texas, just last week announced

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that they are going to be the first in the state

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of Texas to transition to the 24 -72 schedule.

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Now, on my website, you will find a link that

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says 24 -72, and it is full of episodes that

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pertain to this. But this is the first time we've

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had someone who's now in the city manager position

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talking about the transition. So we discuss a

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host of topics from Sam's own journey into the

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fire service, identifying the issues with firefighter

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mental and physical health. opposing the 4896,

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how that led him to the conversation of the 2472,

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the importance of humility and communication

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by all involved to make this happen for their

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fire department, the potential fiscal savings,

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how they are going to transition over the next

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four years, and so much more. Now, before we

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get to this incredible conversation, as I say

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every week, please just take a moment. Go to

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whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I welcome

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onto the show Sam Greif. Enjoy. Well, Sam, I

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want to start by saying thank you so much for

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being so generous with your time and coming on

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the Behind the Shield podcast today. Well, thanks

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for having me. Looking forward to it. So where

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on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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Plano, Texas. Brilliant. For people listening,

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they probably recognize that city for good reasons,

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I hope. So let's start at the very beginning

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of your timeline then. Tell me where you were

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born and tell me a little bit about your family

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dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.

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Okay, real quick. Born in 1963, Fort Worth, Texas.

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My father was Dr. Lawrence B. Greif. He was a

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surgeon, general surgeon and family practitioner

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later in his career. Mom was in the medical profession

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as well in nursing. I had two older sisters.

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Unfortunately, both of them have preceded me

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in death. My latest one just back in August.

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My oldest one, I lost the other one two years

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ago. September this month, as a matter of fact.

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So I'm only child now. But I've got one son who

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is a veteran of the Fort Worth Fire Department,

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18 -year veteran. He's a lieutenant. That's where

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I did my first 30 years of firing EMS was in

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the Fort Worth Fire Department. I started on

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the Fort Worth Ambulance Service when I was just

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shy of 19 years old. uh and then became a paramedic

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a year later and then a few years after that

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finally landed on the fire department but uh

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did for 30 years there retired as the assistant

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chief of ops came to plano texas to be the the

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fire chief in summer of 2015 and uh did that

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for about six and a half years and then uh my

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boss is the city manager uh he was in the chair

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i'm in now uh for many years and loved working

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for him he's just a super great man and so many

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levels and he uh And I just kind of click. And

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so I had an opportunity to come into this position

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as the DCM over public safety. And I've been

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doing that now for coming up on four years in

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November. And in full disclosure, I've already

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announced my retirement a couple of months ago

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that I'll be leaving at the end of January of

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26. So I'm hanging it up after what will be 44

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years of service. It's time to go spend some

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time with my son and my grandbabies. I got two

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little granddaughters. Spend some time with my

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wife and give back to my family because they've

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given a lot of their time for me to pursue my

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career. Well, I'm sure we're going to unpack

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some of that as we get in this conversation.

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Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your siblings.

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That's horrendous that you had to deal with that.

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Going back, though, to when the three of you

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were kids, talk to me about the pros and the

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cons of your parents being in the medical fields

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that they were in. Well, Pop, I was an oops baby.

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My dad was 42, I think, when I was born. So he

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had been a World War II veteran. He was born

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in 1922 and went off to war when he was 20 years

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old. And coming up, the greatest generation,

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no question about it, but he was a very tough

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man. And even though he was a doctor. It was

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kind of like when you got hurt on the playground

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or something and you came in, it was like, does

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this hurt? And so he was, rub some dirt on it,

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son. So I would say that would be the negative

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side, that he was just a tough guy, and so you

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weren't going to get a whole lot of sympathy.

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But if you did get a cold or you did get sick,

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the upside was you had great medical care Johnny

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on the spot. But I think long hours, dedication.

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My dad became a doctor back in the days when

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the doctor that did everything. He delivered

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your baby. He took out your appendix, what have

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you. And so making the rounds with him as a little

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boy in the evenings, sometimes he would take

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me to the hospital and, you know, you set the

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weight room while he went and checked on patients.

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And you see that dedication because that was

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after he'd worked all day in the office, came

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home, had dinner, and then he had to go back

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and do what, you know, make rounds. And so, you

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know, just long hours and the dedication to helping

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others, I think that's one of the takeaways that

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I had growing up in that environment. When we

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talk about the World War II generation and we

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say the greatest generation, the number of people

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now that I've heard stories, whether it was father

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or grandfather, you realize that even though

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they did as a generation come back, roll up their

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sleeves and get to work, that doesn't mean that

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the things that happened, the things that they

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saw, the things that they had to do didn't take

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a toll. And in a way, we almost took away their

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ability to talk about it by saying, no, no, shh.

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You're the greatest generation. You just got

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back to work. And you hear a lot of issues about

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domestic violence and alcoholism and a lot of

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these struggles that these veterans had from

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that era that really never had the space to process

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it. When you reflect back now with this different

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lens that you have, what were the impacts, if

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any, of the war on your father? You know, it's

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funny you should say that. You can't see it,

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but hanging on the wall here is a plaque of all

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my dad's medals, shadow box. My dad, all he talked

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about is that, you know, we went off to war and

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came home. And you try to ask him questions about

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it, he deflected. So that told me there was something

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there. Years, actually, after I became the fire

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chief here, I got curious. My pop passed away

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of heart disease back in 1994. He was 72. I wanted

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to know more about his history, so I wrote the

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Department of Defense, and you can actually go

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through a process in a certified letter, and

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you can get the war records. And so I did all

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that, and when I got the records back, I mean,

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it brought tears to my eyes because I had no

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idea what all he had solved. But, I mean, he

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did both of his years of active duty from 1942

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to 1944 was in the South Pacific, specifically

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in the Battle of New Guinea. He earned a slew

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of medals. He never talked about that, never

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saw those medals. There's actually an organization

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that will send you those medals once the records

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have been revealed. And so it's something I have

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hanging in my office as a tribute to my dad.

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But I want to brag about it, but dad never talked

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about it. But I'm sure he saw some horrific things

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that probably hardened him. i don't you know

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it's not like ptsd was invented in mind your

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generation uh well i'm 20 years ahead of you

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uh but you know it didn't get invented by it

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it didn't start after us we just we've learned

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how to have those conversations and i think back

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in their days that was a sign of weakness to

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have those conversations quite frankly so they

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bottled up a lot of stuff when you listen to

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you know whether it's poetry or, you know, read

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stories when it comes to war going back centuries,

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you hear the same phrase, you know, soldier's

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heart, thousand yard stare, you know, shell shock.

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These are all the same things that we're talking

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about now. And I think, you know, there is a

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balance. You know, you hear the term quiet professional.

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And yet there's a certain point where, you know,

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police officer, firefighter, special operations

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soldier doesn't want to talk about some of the

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things that they do or in the military case,

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maybe can't talk about it. But there's a fine

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line between never talking about it and not always

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talking about it. And I think in our profession,

00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:32.799
it's the same. There was this facade that we

00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:35.720
just suck it up and get on with it. But sadly,

00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:40.120
we realized through the, you know, the Florian

00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:42.440
crests that have had the black band in them that

00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:45.340
just litter our social media fields now, for

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example, that if you do that, it does come at

00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:56.600
a consequence. Yes. And like I said, you know,

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our generation, we encourage it. We want people

00:12:00.019 --> 00:12:04.019
to talk. We want to have after action. You know,

00:12:04.059 --> 00:12:07.600
you want big, horrific events. But, yeah, when

00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.360
you compartmentalize, I don't care what anybody

00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:11.279
says. I mean, I think back and I wonder, you

00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.840
know, did my dad's heart disease, was it a reflection

00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.600
of maybe what he saw and how he bottled up emotions

00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.340
and stuff? I mean, it's speculation at this point.

00:12:22.830 --> 00:12:26.389
But he was awful young. He was 51 when he had

00:12:26.389 --> 00:12:28.129
his first heart attack. And they didn't think

00:12:28.129 --> 00:12:29.529
he was going to live through the night. I was

00:12:29.529 --> 00:12:32.490
just a little boy, 10 or so at the time. And

00:12:32.490 --> 00:12:35.769
he wound up living another, you know, 21, 22

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years. I credit my stepmom with that because

00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:41.570
she made him take breaks and made him eat right

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and that kind of stuff. But, you know, I wonder

00:12:45.009 --> 00:12:48.990
what impact did that have on him and not being

00:12:48.990 --> 00:12:51.230
able to have those conversations. I just think

00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:55.919
it's... We do a hard job. It's a hard job. It's

00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.580
done by hard people making hard decisions quickly.

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And, you know, I'd be lying if I said it hadn't

00:13:03.700 --> 00:13:06.320
taken a toll on me. But, you know, I guess I

00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:10.620
learned at an early age, if you can see human

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tragedy and not be moved by it, if you can have

00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:17.500
a call that involves especially children, I think

00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:19.500
all of us universally agree those are always

00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:23.259
the hardest. Come home and hug your kid tight.

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You know, if you can't cry, there's something

00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:31.259
wrong with you, quite frankly. I mean, you can't

00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:33.460
unsee what our eyes have seen. You know, that's

00:13:33.460 --> 00:13:36.259
what I always tell people. And, you know, every

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day is not Chicago fire. It's not grueling. We

00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.559
both know that. But it only takes one or two

00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:47.320
bad days a year to really imprint in your mind

00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.500
some things that. are tough to deal with uh and

00:13:50.500 --> 00:13:54.720
and i i just encourage my guys uh you you have

00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.720
to talk about it you know uh find an outlet and

00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.279
i don't mean alcohol uh you know but but find

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something to de -stress well you talk about the

00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:06.860
physical manifestations too i mean there's now

00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:10.080
we know that there's a direct correlation between

00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:13.960
stress and also sleep deprivation and all things

00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.220
physical ill health and all things mental ill

00:14:16.220 --> 00:14:18.639
health. So is it the only thing? No, but yeah,

00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:20.659
it's an amplifier. I mean, we rest and recover

00:14:20.659 --> 00:14:23.059
so that we can perform at the highest level.

00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:25.539
And if we have physicians or firefighters or

00:14:25.539 --> 00:14:28.360
paramedics or police officers working themselves

00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.840
into the ground, you know, there is going to

00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.299
come a cost and it might be a mental break first

00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:37.200
or it might be a physical break. Yeah, you know,

00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.259
we've had this conversation, but you think about

00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:43.799
all the critical professions that have much less

00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:45.919
hours that you're allowed to stay in the saddle.

00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.580
You know, aircraft pilots, the flight attendants,

00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.000
you know, they're there for your safety, as we

00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:54.539
always hear on those announcements, and they

00:14:54.539 --> 00:14:56.700
truly are. I mean, it's not a belittlement of

00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.960
the position at all. They're there to help make

00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:02.120
sure when things go bad, you can help survive.

00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.159
train conductors, truck drivers. The list goes

00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.700
on and on. Well, we're not supermen. We're not

00:15:10.700 --> 00:15:15.220
superwomen. We're not cartoon characters. We

00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:19.419
have a limit switch. And if you stay in that

00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:21.980
saddle, especially running companies, and I guess

00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:26.500
part of my dogmaticness when it comes to how

00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:30.470
long you should be able to stay on duty. is I

00:15:30.470 --> 00:15:32.350
worked running companies in Fort Worth my whole

00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:34.610
career. When I was out in operations, I worked,

00:15:34.669 --> 00:15:38.450
you know, Station 24 and Station 3, east side

00:15:38.450 --> 00:15:42.250
of town, very busy, low socioeconomic area of

00:15:42.250 --> 00:15:44.549
the city, and we ran our butts off. I mean, just

00:15:44.549 --> 00:15:47.750
period into story. So, and I was young at the

00:15:47.750 --> 00:15:52.450
time. When I went back as a BC, late 40s, that

00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:55.250
same house, it was a triple house, a BC, a ladder,

00:15:55.330 --> 00:15:58.000
and an engine. i'll tell you it wasn't quite

00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:00.179
as easy and i wasn't having to run all the calls

00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:02.519
i was running four or five calls a day as a bc

00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.580
out of that house compared to my engine company

00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:09.679
that was running 18 19 20 calls um and when my

00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:13.120
ironically i made assistant chief went back into

00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:17.279
a desk job my son was had been on the job at

00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.919
that point several years and uh he put in for

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:21.960
him wound up getting that station on a different

00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:24.480
shift the same month i was leaving he was coming

00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:26.929
in And he grew up in that station coming to visit

00:16:26.929 --> 00:16:28.710
me. It was a big deal to him. He wanted to be

00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:31.889
regular there. But I worried about him because

00:16:31.889 --> 00:16:35.909
I knew how many calls he was making. Even at

00:16:35.909 --> 00:16:38.409
his age, I used to stress, man, this is it's

00:16:38.409 --> 00:16:40.309
taken a toll. You need to get plenty of rest.

00:16:40.409 --> 00:16:42.250
You know, when you're young, you burn the candle

00:16:42.250 --> 00:16:45.830
at both ends. We both know what it's like. But

00:16:45.830 --> 00:16:49.870
it's, you know, long term. Yeah, there's I think

00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:51.909
the problem that I have is folks that want to

00:16:51.909 --> 00:16:54.919
argue with the science. The science is the science,

00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:59.980
people. There's no way around it. The human body,

00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.460
sleep deprivation, the mental aspect of it, it

00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:06.180
leads to heart disease. It leads to disease processes.

00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:10.519
Cancer has been linked to low immune systems.

00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.759
Low immune systems are a direct link of not getting

00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:16.779
enough rest. It is what it is, guys. There's

00:17:16.779 --> 00:17:19.480
just no way you can get around it. It frustrates

00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.289
me. to have those conversations and people want

00:17:22.289 --> 00:17:25.589
to be in denial about that. 100%. Well, before

00:17:25.589 --> 00:17:28.230
we kind of get to that topic, going back to when

00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:31.170
you were younger, what were you playing and doing

00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:36.150
as far as exercise and sport back then? Predominantly,

00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:39.049
you know, I hung out with your friends. You played

00:17:39.049 --> 00:17:41.710
sandlot, fake baseball, football, that kind of

00:17:41.710 --> 00:17:44.799
stuff. Unfortunately, I was in a car accident

00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.099
when I was 13 years old and wrecked my shoulder

00:17:48.099 --> 00:17:49.880
really bad. Had to have shoulder reconstruction

00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:53.000
done. So the doctors wouldn't clear me for contact

00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.279
sports. So I tried to play baseball and the doctor

00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.079
explained to me, that's still a contact sport,

00:17:58.220 --> 00:18:00.539
son. You can't do that one either. So I wound

00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:02.380
up playing tennis. That was the one thing they

00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:05.039
said that I could play. So I played a lot of

00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.759
tennis and then, you know, got into golf as a

00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:12.369
young adult and started playing golf. uh was

00:18:12.369 --> 00:18:15.690
not able to play organized sports in school unfortunately

00:18:15.690 --> 00:18:17.829
but just getting out with your buddies you know

00:18:17.829 --> 00:18:20.890
anything with a ball i was there it uh you know

00:18:20.890 --> 00:18:24.769
just enjoyed playing uh being outdoors what about

00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:27.369
career aspirations you you had parents in the

00:18:27.369 --> 00:18:29.970
medical field were you considering the fire service

00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:33.430
was there something else prior i was blessed

00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:36.640
uh james i was I tell everybody I was blessed

00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.339
beyond measure. I knew when I was 14 or 15 years

00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:41.920
old that I wanted to be a firefighter. I was

00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.059
obsessed with it. I did my term theme in high

00:18:44.059 --> 00:18:47.079
school, my English term theme on the fire service.

00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.480
Read Engine Company, report from Engine Company,

00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.660
82, and amongst other books for my literature

00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:58.140
study. But I just knew that's what I wanted to

00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:00.619
do. I had an older cousin that I was close with,

00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.660
and he was an Arlington firefighter. And I would

00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:05.779
go hang out at the station on weekends and the

00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:08.400
guys would, you know, let me wash the truck and

00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.519
let me mop the floors, you know, and they'd sneak

00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.839
me on the truck to go buy groceries and tell

00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.460
me Layla, if they got a call. But they, I just

00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:20.839
love that feeling of being in the firehouse.

00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.299
And I love the way those guys, they loved one

00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:27.140
another. They, you know, I guess I can say grab

00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:32.799
ass. They grab ass with one another. They had

00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.160
a good time, and it was like, man, these guys

00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:37.259
are laughing while they're working. They enjoy

00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:40.160
what they're doing. It's exciting, and I was

00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.180
never one that could. What was not on my career

00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:45.279
aspiration is sitting in this chair. I can tell

00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.339
you that. I never saw myself as being an office

00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:51.000
guy. Even up 10 years ago, that was never in

00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.180
my radar screen. Being a firefighter paramedic

00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:56.220
is all I wanted to do. I watched Johnny and Roy

00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:00.259
religiously. And so I knew at a young age, so

00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:02.180
I went to EMT school right out of high school,

00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:05.819
to junior college, and got hired just as I was

00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:09.099
graduating from that. And literally, I'm not

00:20:09.099 --> 00:20:11.480
19 years old yet, and I'm driving an emergency

00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.400
ambulance in West Fort Worth. The city's ambulance

00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.640
service was privatized back then. In fact, it

00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.759
just went fire -based back in July of this year

00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:25.640
in Fort Worth, finally. But I knew. I mean, there

00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:28.690
was not a doubt in my mind. Candidly, it was

00:20:28.690 --> 00:20:30.730
tough as hell. I mean, I was scrawny. I weighed

00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:36.230
133 pounds, 5 '9", 133 pounds. And it was tough

00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:39.450
to compete against the Giants. And back in those

00:20:39.450 --> 00:20:42.829
days, getting a fire service job was like the

00:20:42.829 --> 00:20:46.069
lottery ticket. And so I was testing anywhere

00:20:46.069 --> 00:20:49.089
and everywhere I could test while still working

00:20:49.089 --> 00:20:51.930
24 -48 on the ambulance. And then finally...

00:20:52.220 --> 00:20:55.460
was blessed to get on Fort Worth in August of

00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:59.359
1985. And the rest was history. But I never looked

00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.720
back. I was doing exactly what I wanted to do

00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:06.079
with my life. And ironically, my pop could not

00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.900
have been more proud of me. He was very happy

00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:12.420
that I knew what I wanted to do and that I was

00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:14.940
pursuing it. And he lived long enough to see

00:21:14.940 --> 00:21:17.559
me make two promotions. I was a baby lieutenant

00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:22.200
when he passed away. you know it i i say blessed

00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.759
because there's so many people that are they

00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:27.660
go to school because they thought or their parents

00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:30.039
told them this is what you need to be and and

00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.339
they became that and then they're successful

00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:36.940
at it but they're not genuinely happy and i'm

00:21:36.940 --> 00:21:38.960
going to use teachers as my example real quick

00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.700
if you think back when you were in school at

00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:44.380
whatever level You had a teacher that you can

00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:46.160
still close your eyes to this day and you're

00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.400
like, man, I love being in their class. I love

00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.180
the enthusiasm. I love the impact. But you also

00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:52.900
could close your eyes and think of that teacher

00:21:52.900 --> 00:21:54.700
that you're asking yourself, why the hell did

00:21:54.700 --> 00:21:56.779
you become a teacher? You clearly hate kids.

00:21:57.700 --> 00:22:01.799
And I think that's an analogy, but I think it's

00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.759
a true one that the ones that just teaching is

00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.319
their lifeblood. They're the ones that impact

00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:10.680
people in such a positive way year after year

00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:12.799
for their whole career. And then you have those

00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:14.500
that they're just miserable. They don't want

00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:16.160
to be in that classroom, but they're too far

00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:18.779
in or that's what they went to school for. And

00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:21.880
they're miscast. I was blessed. I knew what I

00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:24.480
wanted to do at a young age. I pursued it. And

00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.759
the Lord blessed me to be able to provide me

00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.660
with a very rewarding career, both in Fort Worth

00:22:31.660 --> 00:22:43.140
and here in Plano. I mean, I'm sorry, December

00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:47.019
31st of 1993. I would have called in sick that

00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.319
day because a guy decided that it was a good

00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:54.440
idea to hit a fire truck head on after a false

00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.160
call was called in. And that really derailed

00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.619
my physical career as far as I've had some major

00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:04.019
spine surgeries. It was a very horrific accident.

00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:07.339
And that took me out of the field for several

00:23:07.339 --> 00:23:11.099
years before I was. qualified to go back to physically

00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:14.839
to operations but made it back so you know no

00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:19.339
tears but other than that wouldn't trade anything

00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:23.960
for the people I got to work with and for just

00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:26.819
an amazing as you know I mean we're a unique

00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:29.200
breed and I say we because even though I left

00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.500
the fire service coming up on four years ago

00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:34.660
now I'm going to be a fireman in my heart till

00:23:34.660 --> 00:23:37.599
the day they bury me. And I make no apologies

00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.720
for the profession I chose or the defense of

00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.579
the profession. I couldn't agree more. The way

00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:47.160
the Marines refer to themselves, like once a

00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.119
Marine, always a Marine. It's the same as us.

00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:50.859
And I tell people just to prove it, you know,

00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.200
you're driving along with your family. A car

00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.579
rolls over in front of you. Do you keep driving?

00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.259
No, of course you don't, because you're a firefighter.

00:23:58.259 --> 00:23:59.980
You're a paramedic. You're going to go do your

00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:04.220
thing. Going back to that wreck for a moment,

00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.670
was that a deliberate? driving into the the fire

00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:12.109
engine from what i was told uh by the the person's

00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:15.670
father was what i was told not directly but evidently

00:24:15.670 --> 00:24:18.529
he had told my chief uh i was in the hospital

00:24:18.529 --> 00:24:21.890
that uh he felt like that it was premeditated

00:24:21.890 --> 00:24:23.910
uh he had been going through a divorce he had

00:24:23.910 --> 00:24:26.589
just taken his daughter back to the ex -wife

00:24:26.589 --> 00:24:28.829
he had had her for the holidays it was it was

00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:32.430
new year's eve day and it was a blue sky day

00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:35.089
you've heard that saying it The weather was perfect

00:24:35.089 --> 00:24:36.869
in Fort Worth, Texas that day. It was a blue

00:24:36.869 --> 00:24:39.309
sky. It was just a few minutes before the noon

00:24:39.309 --> 00:24:42.009
hour. We'd already had four or five runs that

00:24:42.009 --> 00:24:45.109
day. And this one was supposed to be an auto

00:24:45.109 --> 00:24:49.109
pedestrian. And at the very last possible second,

00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:53.349
his car came across the median or the center

00:24:53.349 --> 00:24:56.410
line and just center punched right into my side,

00:24:56.509 --> 00:24:58.289
the officer's side of the truck. And it was one

00:24:58.289 --> 00:25:02.170
of those E1 hurricane pumps. you know, low slung

00:25:02.170 --> 00:25:04.029
windshields. If I had not been wearing, we only

00:25:04.029 --> 00:25:05.950
had lap belts in those days, but if I had not

00:25:05.950 --> 00:25:08.309
had that lap belt on, I'd have gone out that

00:25:08.309 --> 00:25:11.329
window. There's no question. My bunker boots

00:25:11.329 --> 00:25:13.150
went out the window from being in the floor.

00:25:13.849 --> 00:25:17.009
And the air pack, to this day, I'll say to this

00:25:17.009 --> 00:25:19.309
day, for many years, the picture of this truck

00:25:19.309 --> 00:25:22.750
was on every trade magazine. It was in an advertisement

00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:25.210
for the buckle systems to be able to lock your

00:25:25.210 --> 00:25:27.910
air bottles in because my air bottle came out.

00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:30.700
Hit me in the head, bounced off my leg, and went

00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:33.140
across the cab and took the driver's window out

00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:36.180
and hung on the windshield wiper blade. So it

00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:38.160
was hanging on the outside of the truck. And

00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.339
the name of the truck, ironically, we were allowed

00:25:40.339 --> 00:25:42.599
to nickname our trucks. Our truck was called

00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.519
the War Wagon. And so here's this demolished

00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:47.960
truck with an air pack hanging out the window

00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.779
being held up by the strap of the windshield

00:25:50.779 --> 00:25:54.240
wiper. And the gentleman that took it was named

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.180
Glenn Ellman. a famous fire photographer in Fort

00:25:57.180 --> 00:26:00.880
Worth. And you can't pick up a trade journal

00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.319
or a magazine that doesn't have his pictures

00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:06.740
in it. And he wound up, that picture got sold

00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:10.119
and was used for years as advertisements for

00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:13.420
the buckle systems for those air packs. But yeah,

00:26:13.539 --> 00:26:16.099
it was, by all accounts, it appeared to be delivery,

00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.160
yes. I've had this conversation a few times on

00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.039
here. When I worked in California, I was a tillerman.

00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:24.240
So I was in the doghouse at the back of the ladder

00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.880
and you don't have your pack. You've got to have

00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.759
it down in the compartment below. So you climb

00:26:28.759 --> 00:26:31.299
down, throw your pack on and go to work. And

00:26:31.299 --> 00:26:33.319
it made me realize how easy it is to throw a

00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.559
pack on in a few seconds and how this, you know.

00:26:37.729 --> 00:26:40.869
clean cabs, stops, grabs, you know, rhetoric

00:26:40.869 --> 00:26:43.170
that's thrown around is just so ridiculous because

00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:45.309
if you can't throw your pack on while your LT

00:26:45.309 --> 00:26:47.569
is telling you what they want or you're doing

00:26:47.569 --> 00:26:49.349
a quick survey of the scene, then you need to

00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:51.769
go back to fire academy. But you'd also don't

00:26:51.769 --> 00:26:53.670
leap off a fire engine and run straight through

00:26:53.670 --> 00:26:55.750
the front door of a building. But one of the

00:26:55.750 --> 00:26:58.269
big things aside from the decon side was simply

00:26:58.269 --> 00:27:01.400
that, you know, the number of... hazards that

00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:03.539
come with having the packs inside whether they

00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:06.420
fly around in a wreck or whether you get hung

00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:09.420
up with all the things that are strapped in versus

00:27:09.420 --> 00:27:12.039
climbing off with you know no incumbent then

00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.799
grabbing it from a compartment i really feel

00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.259
like you know if i got to choose personally i

00:27:18.259 --> 00:27:20.539
would much rather grab my pack from outside because

00:27:20.539 --> 00:27:23.160
you're so much safer in the cab when it isn't

00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.779
yeah yeah I had a whole different viewpoint after

00:27:26.779 --> 00:27:28.680
that, I can assure you. Yeah, I can imagine.

00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:32.640
About anything laying loose in the vehicle. You

00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.660
know, our chief's cars, we had cages, like a

00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:38.599
cop car, basically, to keep all of our equipment

00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:40.440
from being able to come forward for that very

00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:43.539
reason. Things you don't really think about until

00:27:43.539 --> 00:27:45.420
you... How many accidents have you made in your

00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:47.059
life, but when you're in a horrific one yourself,

00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:50.740
it changes your perspective in an area. 100%.

00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:54.309
Well, one more area just to... touched on something

00:27:54.309 --> 00:27:57.470
you alluded to. As we have this conversation,

00:27:57.690 --> 00:27:59.589
we talk about the future of the fire service

00:27:59.589 --> 00:28:03.470
and therefore getting that demand back from when

00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:05.549
you were testing, even from when I was testing,

00:28:05.690 --> 00:28:08.690
so that you are able to choose the top percentage

00:28:08.690 --> 00:28:11.609
of a list and really find the cream of the crop

00:28:11.609 --> 00:28:14.559
when it comes to recruits. I think there's a

00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:16.839
very responsible conversation in our profession

00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.859
as to the age of a candidate. As we learn in

00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:22.559
neuroscience now that the brain isn't really

00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:29.500
fully formed until about 25. So once we have

00:28:29.500 --> 00:28:31.339
the demand and the recruitment back to where

00:28:31.339 --> 00:28:34.539
it needs to be, I feel like getting an 18 -year

00:28:34.539 --> 00:28:37.039
-old running the kind of calls that we see in

00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:39.839
our profession is irresponsible. And if you look

00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.119
at law enforcement, it's 21 before you can be

00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:45.500
a cop. What is your perspective on the youngest

00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:49.599
age that someone can enter this profession? Well,

00:28:49.660 --> 00:28:52.180
I guess I probably could have come at it from

00:28:52.180 --> 00:28:55.319
a little bit different of a lens because I was

00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.640
young when I got into it. I mean, I was a good

00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.579
paramedic. I was a good EMT for a year. And then

00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:06.759
I became a paramedic, well, the following year

00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.549
or so. Close to two years, a year and a half

00:29:09.549 --> 00:29:12.309
as an EMT before I made a medic. But I was a

00:29:12.309 --> 00:29:15.410
damn good paramedic, and I handled myself well.

00:29:16.109 --> 00:29:19.230
I was young. I got into the fire service at 22.

00:29:20.509 --> 00:29:22.869
But I think I would have been fine had I gotten

00:29:22.869 --> 00:29:25.910
in at 18 when I first started testing. So, you

00:29:25.910 --> 00:29:29.750
know, we're going to mature as we go through

00:29:29.750 --> 00:29:34.549
our stages of life. But I think it really...

00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:37.180
I guess, James, from my perspective is I've seen

00:29:37.180 --> 00:29:40.319
some young kids come on and they have been dynamite

00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.440
and they're just do really well. And then I've

00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.380
seen some that have come on and they have faltered.

00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.680
It's too much to handle the money, the whole

00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:51.000
thing. And sometimes it's the peer group they're

00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.579
hanging with is the problem. But then I've also

00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:57.119
seen some older folks come on and auger in and

00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.799
do really poorly. So I think it's more individual

00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.140
based, to be honest with you. So I don't really

00:30:02.140 --> 00:30:05.400
have a problem with the 18. I do think it's an

00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:07.619
uphill battle for someone that age because a

00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:09.059
lot of times they just don't know how to carry

00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:10.900
themselves through the interview process and

00:30:10.900 --> 00:30:14.619
so forth. So candidly, I didn't hire a lot of

00:30:14.619 --> 00:30:16.779
young people when I was in charge of hiring,

00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:20.900
but I don't want to paint with a broad brushstroke

00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.220
either and just say that, you know, but statistically,

00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.700
yeah, I don't think there's any argument. You're

00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:27.539
probably going to get a better person at 21,

00:30:27.819 --> 00:30:31.940
22 than you do at 18, but I don't want to just.

00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:34.720
I feel like I'd still leave the door open for

00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.240
them. They just got a higher bar to prove to

00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:40.299
get on. I think where I'm coming from, and I

00:30:40.299 --> 00:30:42.920
think the answer is, yeah, give yourself the

00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:45.019
latitude to maybe make exceptions to the rule.

00:30:45.140 --> 00:30:49.119
But from an ability to process trauma, there

00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:51.440
are a lot more vulnerable at 18. All of us, they,

00:30:51.579 --> 00:30:54.339
us, we were a lot more vulnerable at 18 than

00:30:54.339 --> 00:30:57.900
we were 21. So I think that's where this conversation

00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:01.119
is coming from. At what age? can you start exposing

00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.980
a young person to the level and the frequency

00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:07.700
of trauma that we see in this profession? Yeah,

00:31:07.819 --> 00:31:11.440
indefinitely. I think being a little older, but

00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:15.420
again, I mean, I feel like it's, you know, we

00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:19.640
see things that other people, if they saw, I'm

00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:21.920
going to give you just a brief example of what

00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.259
happened just this past week. There was a news

00:31:24.259 --> 00:31:26.579
conference just down the street at Central Fire

00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:28.900
Station slash administration, my old office.

00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:32.220
They were doing a news conference about 2472.

00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:36.660
And so all the news media was there. And a gentleman,

00:31:36.779 --> 00:31:41.799
an elderly gentleman, came and parked his car

00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:44.200
and calmly got out from what witnesses are saying.

00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:46.880
He parked on the admin side. He walked around.

00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:50.259
He pulled out a weapon. He went into the yard

00:31:50.259 --> 00:31:53.779
and shot himself in the head. While all the news

00:31:53.779 --> 00:31:55.779
media is there, while everybody's gathered around.

00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:59.099
And there was a couple of our civilian ladies

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:03.420
that work in the city that were down there for

00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:08.119
EMS billing meeting, and they witnessed it. And

00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:13.000
it's difficult, you know, and people can go their

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:14.700
whole lives and not see something like that.

00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:18.359
And when they do, they need some counseling.

00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:22.460
They got to decompress that. We see that stuff

00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:28.309
all the time. You know, if you and I take our

00:32:28.309 --> 00:32:30.630
shirts off, well, at least I don't have a big

00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:32.890
S tattooed on my chest. I can guarantee you.

00:32:33.730 --> 00:32:37.170
And so we're human and we're going to see things.

00:32:37.269 --> 00:32:40.230
I mean, I, you know, I can remember through my

00:32:40.230 --> 00:32:43.069
career, I would I would hit dark spots, you know,

00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:46.009
times when you would see, again, mostly kids,

00:32:46.049 --> 00:32:49.490
but are just horrific events where there's just

00:32:49.490 --> 00:32:53.859
a big loss of life, senselessness to it. I remember

00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:57.420
after 9 -11, man, I went through a depressive

00:32:57.420 --> 00:32:59.380
state. I'm sure all of us did that were in the

00:32:59.380 --> 00:33:02.640
profession back then. America, we all mourned,

00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:05.420
but I think those of us that are in the profession,

00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.140
I just remember busting out crying like three

00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:12.859
or four days after it happened. My wife came

00:33:12.859 --> 00:33:15.180
over and hugged me, and she said, I've been waiting

00:33:15.180 --> 00:33:17.319
for that to happen. I've been waiting for you

00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:20.880
to let go. She knew when I would have a bad call.

00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:23.940
A young woman, you know, when we were young,

00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:26.819
we first got married, you know, you'd see a young

00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:28.839
woman that had been brutally beaten or raped

00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.079
or some senseless tragedy. And, you know, you

00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.380
call home at 2 a .m. to check to see if everything's

00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:37.579
all right. My wife is pretty intuitive. She realizes

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:40.200
he has seen something bad. There's a reason he's

00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:42.460
calling at 2 a .m., waking me up to make sure

00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.920
I'm OK. And in retrospect, was that the proudest

00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:48.640
thing for me to do? No, but I'm human. And, you

00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:52.349
know, like I said, it's. I don't have any trouble

00:33:52.349 --> 00:33:56.390
crying. If it's a bad event, I'm a human being.

00:33:56.670 --> 00:33:59.369
And if I will just say this, if we ever get to

00:33:59.369 --> 00:34:01.970
the point where we're so callous that we say

00:34:01.970 --> 00:34:04.750
it doesn't impact us, then you need to find a

00:34:04.750 --> 00:34:07.730
different profession. Because I don't know how

00:34:07.730 --> 00:34:10.210
you can have empathy and compassion for your

00:34:10.210 --> 00:34:12.969
fellow human being if you're really in that mindset

00:34:12.969 --> 00:34:15.070
that you can just compartmentalize and nothing

00:34:15.070 --> 00:34:18.940
bothers you. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well,

00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:21.860
you alluded to the 2472. Let's go back a little

00:34:21.860 --> 00:34:24.440
bit. Talk to me about the working environment

00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:27.840
that you found yourself in at the beginning of

00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:30.780
your journey in Fort Worth and then lived experience.

00:34:31.059 --> 00:34:33.519
What did you see as far as physical, mental,

00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:36.300
the toll that you experienced when you were actually

00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:42.989
in operations? Well, I think. The physical toll

00:34:42.989 --> 00:34:46.070
is pretty obvious. I mean, obviously, I worked

00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:48.530
at a house where we worked out as a group, so

00:34:48.530 --> 00:34:51.190
you stay in physical condition. I mean, we lived

00:34:51.190 --> 00:34:53.570
that. We had minimum standards to stay on the

00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:57.590
truck physically. And so I would say the physical

00:34:57.590 --> 00:35:00.829
aspect was a little bit easier to overcome. I

00:35:00.829 --> 00:35:04.090
think it was more of the mental aspect. But I

00:35:04.090 --> 00:35:07.510
was one of those folks that I never put my part

00:35:07.510 --> 00:35:11.429
-time job. ahead of my fire job. The fire service

00:35:11.429 --> 00:35:15.210
for me was never about, I just want to pay the

00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:17.070
benefits in the retirement. Like I told you earlier,

00:35:17.190 --> 00:35:19.130
I was called to the fire service like a preacher

00:35:19.130 --> 00:35:21.769
gets called to be a minister. I mean, it was

00:35:21.769 --> 00:35:24.610
just what I knew I wanted to do. So my part -time

00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:28.710
job from probably eight or 10 years after I got

00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:31.170
into the service, my part -time job became the

00:35:31.170 --> 00:35:33.809
fire service. I would teach at the academy. I

00:35:33.809 --> 00:35:36.949
would be put on special committees by the fire

00:35:36.949 --> 00:35:38.849
chief to do some stuff as I was rising through

00:35:38.849 --> 00:35:42.730
the ranks. But I learned how to get rest. I was

00:35:42.730 --> 00:35:44.530
one of those guys that would go home, take a

00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:48.210
shower and get in bed and take a power nap for

00:35:48.210 --> 00:35:51.329
a few hours. So that's how I kind of coped with

00:35:51.329 --> 00:35:55.150
the, you know, or, you know, it was a relatively

00:35:55.150 --> 00:35:56.949
easy shift, which we didn't get a bunch of those.

00:35:57.030 --> 00:36:03.880
But, you know, go play golf, do something. These

00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:05.820
folks come on and we're all hustling. We're all

00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:07.360
trying to make a buck. But I'll be honest with

00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.260
you, fire service didn't pay what it pays today.

00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:13.320
We didn't have the discretionary income that

00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:19.059
these folks have today. But I didn't get into

00:36:19.059 --> 00:36:21.719
that vortex. You know, folks will they get into

00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:23.659
it while I'm painting houses or I'm moving or

00:36:23.659 --> 00:36:26.079
I'm doing landscaping, whatever. And man, they

00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:28.019
get off work no matter how tired they are. And

00:36:28.019 --> 00:36:30.500
then they go right into that that work environment

00:36:30.500 --> 00:36:33.800
for two days. And then they're right back at

00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:35.739
the station and they're not getting any rest.

00:36:35.900 --> 00:36:38.920
I think the only time I ever got into that where

00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:41.639
I'm like, OK, I got to do something was when

00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:45.119
I contracted my own home. I grew up in the trades

00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:48.599
and had a lot of uncles and stuff that taught

00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:52.539
me things. And so I built a home in 19. Well,

00:36:52.659 --> 00:36:55.159
right about the time that accident happened,

00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:59.659
I built a home out on some land out in the country

00:36:59.659 --> 00:37:02.880
that I lived in for 22 years. Building that home

00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:05.840
every day, beating on that place from sun up

00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.199
to sun down 14, 15 hours a day, and then working

00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:12.699
at a hot station, it was the longest four months

00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:15.880
of my life. And, I mean, it did take a physical

00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:19.820
toll on me. And when I say that, I literally

00:37:19.820 --> 00:37:21.920
was bitter toward that home for the first six

00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.460
months I lived in it because I was so pissed

00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:26.639
because I'd worked so hard that you just become,

00:37:26.780 --> 00:37:30.170
it becomes something that. You know, you don't

00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:32.630
look at it as joyous. It took me a while to start

00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:34.730
enjoying the place because I was so mad about

00:37:34.730 --> 00:37:37.590
what I'd gone through to get it. And, you know,

00:37:37.610 --> 00:37:39.730
I didn't have to push myself that hard. I was

00:37:39.730 --> 00:37:41.730
young and dumb. If I had to do it over again,

00:37:41.769 --> 00:37:45.010
I wouldn't do it that way. But anyway, you know,

00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:49.670
bottom line is you've got to take time to rest.

00:37:49.909 --> 00:37:52.730
And sometimes, and this is where I'm saying I

00:37:52.730 --> 00:37:54.829
look at this from both sides, it can't just be

00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:59.559
the city and the fire service, the chiefs, They

00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:02.739
can't just be 100 % responsible for your health.

00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:04.980
You as an individual have to take some personal

00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:07.760
responsibility. We can make a lot of things to

00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:13.059
improve your safety, but then the troops have

00:38:13.059 --> 00:38:17.139
to be willing to do their part as well. You need

00:38:17.139 --> 00:38:19.000
to eat right. You need to get some rest. You

00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.480
need to, again, decompress, do something that's

00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:25.010
relaxing. Don't hustle all the time. Don't party

00:38:25.010 --> 00:38:27.130
every night if you're a single guy. Just because

00:38:27.130 --> 00:38:28.789
the bars are open, you don't have to be in them

00:38:28.789 --> 00:38:32.090
every night. I think that there has to be that,

00:38:32.190 --> 00:38:35.710
you know, we owe our troops the best that we

00:38:35.710 --> 00:38:37.869
can provide them with the science that's available

00:38:37.869 --> 00:38:40.389
at the time. And we have to keep in mind the

00:38:40.389 --> 00:38:42.309
science is going to change. It's evolutionary.

00:38:43.179 --> 00:38:45.360
What we thought was right years ago, we've now

00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:48.760
found out, you know, yeah, that old, oh, you're

00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:50.400
going to push the fire, you got to take a beating.

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.320
You know, we're learning some, Governor's Island

00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.440
taught us a lot. But, you know, there has to

00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:59.099
be accountability on both sides. And we have

00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:01.940
to provide the safest work environment we can

00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:04.280
while realizing it's an inherently dangerous

00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.900
position. So there's going to be some, no matter

00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:08.880
what we do, things are going to happen badly.

00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.199
But then the troops have to meet us halfway.

00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:16.719
And so personally, I've watched a lot of your

00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.260
podcasts, later start times. That's like a taboo

00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:21.940
subject. I'm just going to be honest with you.

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.860
I don't know of either one of my previous department,

00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:28.000
which I've not been there in 10 years, but my

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:31.659
boy's still there. I don't hear any drums beating

00:39:31.659 --> 00:39:34.039
over there for a later start time. And they start

00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:38.659
at 8, is 0800. is when you had to be there. Here

00:39:38.659 --> 00:39:44.420
in Plano, it's 0630. And they are, I've not heard

00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:46.500
anybody beating down the door for a later start

00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:50.519
time. Personally, I would think a 10 a .m. or

00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:54.260
like Austin and noon would be a wonderful time

00:39:54.260 --> 00:39:56.760
to start. But again, it's framing your mentality

00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:00.239
to say the fire service is my job and it pays

00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:02.280
me well enough that I don't have to work another

00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:07.280
job. This is my chosen career. put that first

00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.719
and but when you start pilling back the layers

00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:11.719
of well why do you not want to come in it there's

00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:14.519
that usually comes back down to something they're

00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:16.639
doing on their days off is the reason why they

00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:18.860
don't want to come in at a later start time and

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:21.500
what's your experience been on the later start

00:40:21.500 --> 00:40:24.579
time so it's interesting because this came across

00:40:24.579 --> 00:40:28.380
my radar just probably two years ago i think

00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:30.619
i'll credit sarah jenki i think it was her that

00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:33.429
really talked about it and i was like why Why

00:40:33.429 --> 00:40:36.409
do we start so early? It makes no sense. And

00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:38.929
until you really understand the sleep medicine

00:40:38.929 --> 00:40:42.210
and the reason why we need this extra day between

00:40:42.210 --> 00:40:45.010
shifts, then that's not going to have any traction

00:40:45.010 --> 00:40:48.289
at all. But if I think about again, I was always

00:40:48.289 --> 00:40:52.489
in super high up tempo stations. If I'm oncoming

00:40:52.489 --> 00:40:55.530
shift, you know, I realize this in my career

00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:57.750
working one day on two days off, even though

00:40:57.750 --> 00:41:01.809
that that phrase is poorly worded. I only saw

00:41:01.809 --> 00:41:05.630
my family one third of the mornings that I had

00:41:05.630 --> 00:41:09.170
my entire career because the ongoing shift, I

00:41:09.170 --> 00:41:10.909
was up and out the house while they were still

00:41:10.909 --> 00:41:13.949
asleep. The returning shift, when I came off

00:41:13.949 --> 00:41:16.190
shift, they'd already gone to school and work.

00:41:16.429 --> 00:41:18.590
And then the third day, I actually get to see

00:41:18.590 --> 00:41:21.989
them in the morning. So if I'm ongoing, I get

00:41:21.989 --> 00:41:24.210
to wake up with my family, have breakfast with

00:41:24.210 --> 00:41:27.110
my kids, take them to school, kiss my wife goodbye.

00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:30.460
then pack my stuff, go to the station, do the

00:41:30.460 --> 00:41:32.320
exact same thing I would have done a few hours

00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.619
prior. But instead of breakfast together with

00:41:34.619 --> 00:41:37.039
the station, it would be lunch. If I'm off going

00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.179
shift and I got my ass handed to me all night,

00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:43.719
I can actually maybe get two or three hours sleep

00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:48.300
before I can get up, do pass on and then go home.

00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:50.199
So now I'm not becoming one of these statistics

00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.199
that we lose on the way home from a shift, which

00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:56.769
happens all the time. So to me, that is a win

00:41:56.769 --> 00:41:59.929
-win. Now, then you add in the 24 -72, so you've

00:41:59.929 --> 00:42:03.150
got that extra 24. You can still do those couple

00:42:03.150 --> 00:42:06.769
of days of your side gig because that first day

00:42:06.769 --> 00:42:08.769
you kind of rest, and then day two and three,

00:42:08.809 --> 00:42:11.949
you can still do it. And kind of carrying on

00:42:11.949 --> 00:42:14.590
the conversation you had about jobs, one thing

00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:18.429
I've heard from usually chiefs early on when

00:42:18.429 --> 00:42:20.409
I had a lot of pushback was, well, if we give

00:42:20.409 --> 00:42:23.130
them more time off, they'll just work more. Now,

00:42:23.130 --> 00:42:24.889
what they're thinking is overtime. Well, the

00:42:24.889 --> 00:42:26.650
whole point of this initiative is to make the

00:42:26.650 --> 00:42:28.829
overtime go away in the first place. So now the

00:42:28.829 --> 00:42:31.050
ability to work, apart from occasional overtime,

00:42:31.210 --> 00:42:32.829
which I don't think anyone has a problem with,

00:42:32.929 --> 00:42:35.989
is to do something else. If you want extra income,

00:42:36.210 --> 00:42:38.309
if you want to save for your kid's college or

00:42:38.309 --> 00:42:40.849
you're a water skier and you want to buy a boat,

00:42:40.949 --> 00:42:43.989
whatever it is, then, yeah, you might need to

00:42:43.989 --> 00:42:47.070
get some extra income. And so there's nothing

00:42:47.070 --> 00:42:49.150
wrong with having a personal training business,

00:42:49.349 --> 00:42:52.400
landscaping, construction, whatever it is. as

00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.420
long as you go to bed as long as you're home

00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:57.480
with your family every night so this is the the

00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.320
thing i think between the two is um you know

00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:03.579
if you're taking an extra overtime shift if you're

00:43:03.579 --> 00:43:06.139
working on an ambulance or an er overnight then

00:43:06.139 --> 00:43:08.139
you're an idiot that's when you should be getting

00:43:08.139 --> 00:43:11.079
rest but should you be able to work between you

00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:14.739
know eight and whatever six on you know day two

00:43:14.739 --> 00:43:17.539
and three after a 24 i think yeah that's that's

00:43:17.539 --> 00:43:20.480
absolutely fine so just like you said the responsibility

00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.440
of us for understanding sleep hygiene and responsible

00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:28.079
work in between is imperative but also the the

00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.059
administration the chief's understanding that

00:43:30.059 --> 00:43:32.639
it's okay for their people to work as long as

00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:34.619
they're doing it sensibly so i think this is

00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:36.519
the problem if it's a them and us conversation

00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:39.900
it never gets anywhere you meet in the middle

00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:42.460
and as you said both parties are responsible

00:43:42.460 --> 00:43:45.159
because we are now all of a sudden you're coming

00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:49.019
together and finding solutions what is your i

00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:50.719
guess what i was asking your experiences too

00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:54.199
though what how did what is what do you see amongst

00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:55.960
the troops because that's what i was saying it's

00:43:55.960 --> 00:43:58.340
the troops i mean the fire chief to my knowledge

00:43:58.340 --> 00:44:00.360
i know i never cared and i don't think that the

00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:02.860
current chief would care what time they start

00:44:02.860 --> 00:44:05.639
it's they are the ones that are animate that

00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:07.880
they don't want to go to a later start time what

00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:10.039
is what is your sense out there on the east coast

00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:13.170
amongst the firefighters themselves do they want

00:44:13.170 --> 00:44:15.550
to later start time or are they kind of embedded

00:44:15.550 --> 00:44:19.409
in that early it's it's a new conversation a

00:44:19.409 --> 00:44:23.150
lot of people when the penny drops go why why

00:44:23.150 --> 00:44:25.210
aren't we doing this this does make so much sense

00:44:25.210 --> 00:44:28.090
because if you look at the research when we arrive

00:44:28.090 --> 00:44:30.230
on shift we're already chronically sleep deprived

00:44:30.230 --> 00:44:33.010
i lived 70 miles away from my station most of

00:44:33.010 --> 00:44:34.769
my career so i'm getting up at five o 'clock

00:44:34.769 --> 00:44:36.909
in the morning And, you know, the night before

00:44:36.909 --> 00:44:39.030
a shift, it's not like you go into bed at nine

00:44:39.030 --> 00:44:41.030
and having this deep, peaceful sleep. You're

00:44:41.030 --> 00:44:44.329
just not. So it makes a lot of sense. But just

00:44:44.329 --> 00:44:46.610
like anything, as you've seen, there are people

00:44:46.610 --> 00:44:49.969
out there that will literally say the 4896 is

00:44:49.969 --> 00:44:53.190
better than 2472. We'll unpack the math in that

00:44:53.190 --> 00:44:56.389
in a moment. But that's complete lunacy. It's

00:44:56.389 --> 00:44:57.989
the same with this because they're like, oh,

00:44:58.070 --> 00:45:00.329
but I've got to hand my kids off. Well, think

00:45:00.329 --> 00:45:02.530
about it. You can take your kids to the daycare

00:45:02.530 --> 00:45:06.559
if you have this shift. I think rather than looking

00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:08.880
at as, oh, but it doesn't work because I've got

00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.079
everything around the way it is now, having the

00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.460
latitude to be able to go, well, what if? What

00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:17.579
if we did it that way? I guarantee you a majority

00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:19.380
of the people will go, you know what? That is

00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:24.380
better. We do need to give that a try. Yes. Like

00:45:24.380 --> 00:45:27.940
I said, I would have been down with it, but I

00:45:27.940 --> 00:45:31.369
was always the. the kid that didn't want to wake

00:45:31.369 --> 00:45:33.929
up from school anyway. So I would have had no

00:45:33.929 --> 00:45:35.889
trouble with the later start time, but it was

00:45:35.889 --> 00:45:38.949
just not something that was even talked about

00:45:38.949 --> 00:45:42.449
or discussed. In fact, for years, firefighters

00:45:42.449 --> 00:45:44.670
around the state would make fun of Austin because

00:45:44.670 --> 00:45:47.250
they started at noon. But I got a buddy that's

00:45:47.250 --> 00:45:48.969
retired out of there, and he's like, it's all

00:45:48.969 --> 00:45:51.389
what you get used to. He brought up all the same

00:45:51.389 --> 00:45:53.789
things that you brought up, the positives of

00:45:53.789 --> 00:45:57.010
it. And it's like, it's not a bad, you know.

00:45:57.320 --> 00:45:59.139
One of the things he brought up is the lack of

00:45:59.139 --> 00:46:01.980
traffic that you have to deal with because you're

00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:04.159
coming in after rush hours over and you're leaving

00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.719
after rush hours over with. And so to me, that

00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.539
would be a perk in itself. But anyway, I'm just

00:46:09.539 --> 00:46:12.840
going back to the broader discussion of at the

00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:16.340
end of the day, we have to be accountable on

00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:20.960
both sides of the fence. So as leaders, as the.

00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:23.519
The people with the purse strings, however you

00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:25.780
want to look at it, we have to prioritize firefighter

00:46:25.780 --> 00:46:28.500
safety in every respect that we can, but then

00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:31.059
the firefighters have to do their part too. And

00:46:31.059 --> 00:46:36.659
you'll hear, well, we can manage that, but it

00:46:36.659 --> 00:46:40.059
doesn't get managed. I've talked to several chiefs

00:46:40.059 --> 00:46:42.920
that have crews that work 4896, and their words

00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:47.300
to me were all, and I've talked to several. When

00:46:47.300 --> 00:46:49.840
you get behind the scenes at the pub, at the

00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:54.579
NFA or, you know, at our chief's convention,

00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:58.679
they're all honest with you. They're like, whatever

00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:01.179
problems you have today, you're still going to

00:47:01.179 --> 00:47:02.579
have those problems. They're just going to be

00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:05.400
exacerbated, quote unquote, from an Arizona chief

00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:09.840
that's still on that shift. And he's like, contractually,

00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:11.659
we're never going to get them off that shift.

00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:16.139
He said, but they. you're not going to get rid

00:47:16.139 --> 00:47:18.199
of any of the problems. Your PTSD is still going

00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:20.260
to be just as bad, your divorce rates, your cancer

00:47:20.260 --> 00:47:22.659
rates, your heart attacks, your mistakes. He

00:47:22.659 --> 00:47:24.199
went on and on. He goes, it'll just be worse.

00:47:25.219 --> 00:47:27.380
And so you'll hear the guys that are trying to

00:47:27.380 --> 00:47:30.320
push for it say, well, it's cost neutral. No,

00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:34.960
it's not. It's not cost neutral. And so, and

00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:40.280
again, that has been somewhat of a, you know,

00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.539
just a point of contention and angst is that.

00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:46.420
We need an honest conversation. And if it's really

00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:48.900
more time off, man, we're down with that. I mean,

00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:52.119
I don't know any city manager that can argue

00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.380
with the science. Now, they can talk about, well,

00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:56.159
how are we going to finance it? And that's where

00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:57.699
you start getting into the give and the take.

00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:00.219
And there's different ways to do it. But at the

00:48:00.219 --> 00:48:02.880
end of the day, can anybody with a straight face

00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:10.539
really argue that 56 hours a week is, well, put

00:48:10.539 --> 00:48:13.940
it another way. accountants wouldn't work 56

00:48:13.940 --> 00:48:16.860
hours a week. Purchasing agents wouldn't work

00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:20.039
56 hours a week. You know, city managers don't

00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:22.900
work. I mean, we might wind up working 56 hours

00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:26.079
a week, but it's not the same type of, you know

00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:28.219
what I'm saying? I mean, at the end of the day,

00:48:28.420 --> 00:48:32.079
we're talking about, we're having to make decisions.

00:48:32.300 --> 00:48:35.079
We being the fire service, you're making critical

00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:39.239
decisions that just don't impact you. They either

00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:41.530
impact the patient you're working on. or the

00:48:41.530 --> 00:48:44.050
rest of your crew, or if you're a battalion chief,

00:48:44.190 --> 00:48:46.969
now I've got an entire six or seven companies

00:48:46.969 --> 00:48:51.590
on a scene that I'm responsible for. How do you

00:48:51.590 --> 00:48:54.469
do that in a fatigued state? It doesn't make

00:48:54.469 --> 00:48:57.309
any sense to me that people are going to try

00:48:57.309 --> 00:48:59.590
to argue. Again, we don't have S's on our chest.

00:49:00.030 --> 00:49:04.250
There's no way that you're going to be in a good

00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:08.300
mental state when you're fatigued. The whole

00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:10.980
concept of working 56 hours a week, I know it's

00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:13.380
the way we've always done it, but that don't

00:49:13.380 --> 00:49:17.960
make it right. And so understanding more and

00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:22.219
more about why we're still, we don't make as

00:49:22.219 --> 00:49:24.719
many fires as we did back in my day. And we have

00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.980
better safety equipment. We have smog capturing.

00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:31.260
We have all these things. And we keep saying,

00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:35.099
well, it's because of the plastics. James, I'm

00:49:35.099 --> 00:49:38.190
63 years old almost. Plastics were around when

00:49:38.190 --> 00:49:40.730
I was a baby. You know, we didn't just invent

00:49:40.730 --> 00:49:43.929
plastics yesterday. And so you get to looking

00:49:43.929 --> 00:49:46.090
at it and the more you start dealing into the

00:49:46.090 --> 00:49:48.909
science and a full disclosure, I didn't necessarily

00:49:48.909 --> 00:49:54.710
get into the science as deep until the 4896 discussion

00:49:54.710 --> 00:49:57.969
came up. And then in researching and looking

00:49:57.969 --> 00:50:01.909
to see, OK, how is this? Because intuitively

00:50:01.909 --> 00:50:03.409
you just hear that and you're like, that doesn't

00:50:03.409 --> 00:50:05.849
sound like it's going to make you a better. better

00:50:05.849 --> 00:50:08.949
product for the citizens or for your own safety.

00:50:09.130 --> 00:50:10.710
But when you start digging into the science,

00:50:10.829 --> 00:50:15.269
you realize fatigue is causing cancer. Fatigue

00:50:15.269 --> 00:50:18.650
is causing heart disease. And those aren't going

00:50:18.650 --> 00:50:21.889
down. The fires are going down. Running companies

00:50:21.889 --> 00:50:24.289
are still running companies. We were running

00:50:24.289 --> 00:50:26.110
companies back in my day. We're still running

00:50:26.110 --> 00:50:28.730
companies. So it's not necessarily that, although

00:50:28.730 --> 00:50:32.130
here in Plano, our call volume has gone up significantly

00:50:32.130 --> 00:50:35.409
over the last decade. in your bigger cities it's

00:50:35.409 --> 00:50:38.489
always been busy so what's the common denominator

00:50:38.489 --> 00:50:40.909
and then you start looking into the science and

00:50:40.909 --> 00:50:44.269
i found you and your podcast doing an internet

00:50:44.269 --> 00:50:48.170
search and trying to and and i was like well

00:50:48.170 --> 00:50:50.869
holy hell and and you start putting the pieces

00:50:50.869 --> 00:50:53.969
together and you realize our cancer rates aren't

00:50:53.969 --> 00:50:56.269
getting better because we're not changing the

00:50:56.269 --> 00:50:58.610
common denominator which is we're working too

00:50:58.610 --> 00:51:02.690
damn many hours it uh it's not everybody kept

00:51:02.690 --> 00:51:04.829
arguing about when you get four days off you'll

00:51:04.829 --> 00:51:07.329
come back better rested i'm like guys if you

00:51:07.329 --> 00:51:08.909
send me to hawaii for two weeks i'm going to

00:51:08.909 --> 00:51:10.849
come back rested if you send me for three weeks

00:51:10.849 --> 00:51:12.989
i'm going to come back even more rested but if

00:51:12.989 --> 00:51:15.090
you tell me i've got to work two solid weeks

00:51:15.090 --> 00:51:17.269
with no days off or whatever in order to earn

00:51:17.269 --> 00:51:21.750
the right to go do that it's it's it's not you

00:51:21.750 --> 00:51:23.829
can't get there from here i don't care what anybody's

00:51:23.829 --> 00:51:25.409
and i know there's passionate people that are

00:51:25.409 --> 00:51:29.429
going to argue with me on this but I just tell

00:51:29.429 --> 00:51:32.230
them to go BS somebody else. I wasn't born behind

00:51:32.230 --> 00:51:35.429
this desk. I was born on a fire truck and an

00:51:35.429 --> 00:51:39.369
ambulance. And I know what it does to my body

00:51:39.369 --> 00:51:41.510
when I'm having to work that many hours. And

00:51:41.510 --> 00:51:45.369
there's a difference between doing it at 22 and

00:51:45.369 --> 00:51:48.789
doing it at 52. And you got to also look at who's

00:51:48.789 --> 00:51:50.929
on that truck with you. And a lot of times the

00:51:50.929 --> 00:51:53.849
gray haired guy wearing glasses that's cranky,

00:51:53.869 --> 00:51:56.989
he's 52 and he's the captain or the lieutenant.

00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:01.119
he he's not handling it but his mentality is

00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:03.880
he's got to macho up and he's got to handle it

00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.739
like the young guys do but we both know we're

00:52:06.739 --> 00:52:09.219
not the same as every decade of life gets tougher

00:52:09.219 --> 00:52:14.059
so anyway i said i think we've got to we've got

00:52:14.059 --> 00:52:17.239
to reframe how many hours a week should we be

00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:20.119
working and a 42 -hour work week is a hell of

00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:22.360
a lot closer to a 40 -hour work week the rest

00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:26.920
of america works um and and his You know, I've

00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:28.840
had a private conversation about this. There's

00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:31.219
studies out there now that are showing in progressive

00:52:31.219 --> 00:52:33.920
countries that a 32 -hour work week is actually

00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:38.380
the sweet spot. And you're going to maintain

00:52:38.380 --> 00:52:42.420
that or better productivity than you do working

00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:46.400
a five -day work week. So, again, I think we

00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:49.539
have to – the science is the science. And we

00:52:49.539 --> 00:52:53.539
are living in an era where, unfortunately, science

00:52:53.539 --> 00:52:56.780
is – Not being followed. Let's just leave it

00:52:56.780 --> 00:52:58.239
at that. I'm not going to get into political

00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:01.579
debate. But you know what I'm talking about.

00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:04.800
You know, it's like we're going to ignore all

00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.579
this data because it doesn't fit our narrative.

00:53:07.820 --> 00:53:10.320
And that's that's not the way to run a railroad.

00:53:10.940 --> 00:53:15.500
Well, that's a good segue. As far as not acknowledging

00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:18.079
the data, you've got a pretty interesting perspective

00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:22.039
now for decades in the fire service. What have

00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:27.050
you seen as far as the. impact on recruitment

00:53:27.050 --> 00:53:31.570
and retention over the last few decades as we've

00:53:31.570 --> 00:53:33.710
kept doing it, air quotes, the same as we've

00:53:33.710 --> 00:53:38.309
always done it? I've noticed really and truly

00:53:38.309 --> 00:53:41.710
it's been the last decade. I didn't really notice

00:53:41.710 --> 00:53:44.250
it in my career in Fort Worth. We didn't lose

00:53:44.250 --> 00:53:47.190
people. They were lifers when they came on. Unless

00:53:47.190 --> 00:53:49.929
they did something stupid and got fired, they

00:53:49.929 --> 00:53:53.599
didn't leave to go to another department. poached,

00:53:53.619 --> 00:53:56.760
quite frankly, from a lot of departments. And

00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:01.239
they were lifers. Fast forward, after I became

00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:03.659
the chief here, a few years after I was the chief,

00:54:03.739 --> 00:54:06.860
I started having guys coming in and they were

00:54:06.860 --> 00:54:10.179
resigning to go be real estate agents. They were

00:54:10.179 --> 00:54:14.000
resigning to go be, I had one left to go be a

00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:15.679
police officer. We're still trying to get him

00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:20.960
some psychological help. We had guys that were

00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.139
leaving to go in completely different professions.

00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:29.079
Or in Plano, we have a Texas municipal retirement

00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:31.420
system, which is a statewide retirement system,

00:54:31.579 --> 00:54:34.039
and you can leave after 20 years. Now, you're

00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:35.960
not going to make a whole lot, but you can draw

00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.780
a salary after 20 years of service. We're seeing

00:54:38.780 --> 00:54:42.639
people punching out at 20 and 25 years instead

00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:48.059
of 30 and 35 like we always did. So that's the

00:54:48.059 --> 00:54:52.659
retention side. Definitely seeing a difference,

00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:56.659
degradation in being able, you know, and I'm

00:54:56.659 --> 00:54:59.059
not going to say it's in alarming levels, but

00:54:59.059 --> 00:55:01.539
it just didn't happen before. If there was one

00:55:01.539 --> 00:55:04.519
or two a year in a department of 800 people at

00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:08.300
the time, that was an anomaly. And over here,

00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:10.420
you know, a department of 400 or something, and

00:55:10.420 --> 00:55:12.440
it's happening more and more frequently that

00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.019
they're leaving to go some other totally different

00:55:15.019 --> 00:55:18.809
profession. Then on the recruitment side. Definitely

00:55:18.809 --> 00:55:24.510
a big difference. I think somewhere, it used

00:55:24.510 --> 00:55:26.670
to be around, I'll go back to Fort Worth, about

00:55:26.670 --> 00:55:30.269
1 ,600, 1 ,700 people would show up for a written

00:55:30.269 --> 00:55:35.389
test. And a year or two ago, I think my son told

00:55:35.389 --> 00:55:37.429
me that they had like 800 or something. It was

00:55:37.429 --> 00:55:40.090
like half that amount showed up for a test. Now,

00:55:40.110 --> 00:55:42.809
that's still way more than what they had openings

00:55:42.809 --> 00:55:45.829
available. But when you slice the number of people,

00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:48.739
that are applying in half, you can start to see

00:55:48.739 --> 00:55:51.320
a trend line here. If we're a business and this

00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:53.619
is our sales, we're getting damn nervous right

00:55:53.619 --> 00:55:57.500
now because things are trending in the wrong

00:55:57.500 --> 00:56:01.559
direction. And so in order to bring that back,

00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:03.940
and so I'm going to give you some science here,

00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.360
some hard data. We have a test coming up next

00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:12.579
week that we're opening up for. firefighter emts

00:56:12.579 --> 00:56:15.760
because we've been we changed in 2016 i went

00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:18.300
before the commission and got it changed to paramedic

00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:21.460
firefighter was the bar to take our test because

00:56:21.460 --> 00:56:24.960
we were sending two people to school a year and

00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.840
both years in a row half of them failed out and

00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:31.320
i had people retiring out faster so keeping medics

00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:34.079
was was a commodity so we switched to a paramedic

00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:37.340
only model paramedic firefighter And through

00:56:37.340 --> 00:56:39.219
the years, we've been able to fill the slots.

00:56:39.420 --> 00:56:40.760
I'm not going to tell you that we can't fill

00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:45.119
them, but we've seen a rapid decline. So we gave

00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:49.539
a test today, and we had 58 people show up that

00:56:49.539 --> 00:56:51.940
were certified paramedic firefighters to take

00:56:51.940 --> 00:56:56.820
the exam. We won't, obviously, after they process

00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:58.619
out through the physical and all that, and you

00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:00.480
start winnowing them down, background, and then

00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.239
going before the review board, that number will

00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:07.579
get much smaller. Since we're going to be hiring

00:57:07.579 --> 00:57:10.900
more people now to go to 2472, we're going to

00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:12.820
have to open the door back up to firefighter

00:57:12.820 --> 00:57:15.280
EMTs, which I don't want that to sound like,

00:57:15.300 --> 00:57:18.840
oh, well, you're getting a second tier. Firefighter

00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:22.460
EMTs are, you know, wonderful. And it's just

00:57:22.460 --> 00:57:24.420
a matter of we run the ambulances, so you've

00:57:24.420 --> 00:57:26.099
got to have paramedics just being pragmatic.

00:57:26.440 --> 00:57:28.079
But we've got a bunch now because that's all

00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:30.420
we've been hiring since 2016. And we're still

00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:32.280
going to continue to get those that are going

00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:34.780
to apply. But where I'm going with this is the

00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:39.719
chief. told me today they closed the sign up

00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:44.500
period. We have 400 and I think 58 was the number,

00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:48.960
but it was well over 400 firefighter EMT signed

00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:51.960
up to take our test next week. We've never come

00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:55.940
close to a number like that before. Word is out.

00:57:56.019 --> 00:57:58.380
It's been all over our news media down here.

00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.460
It is, you know, you can't look anywhere and

00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:05.440
not hear or read a story in general media, not

00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:07.860
just in the fire service circles, that we've

00:58:07.860 --> 00:58:10.539
gone to 2472 and that we're now under a contract

00:58:10.539 --> 00:58:13.119
with the council last Monday night or Tuesday

00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:17.949
night voted in. And so there's your answer. If

00:58:17.949 --> 00:58:21.469
you want to talk about recruitment, I don't need

00:58:21.469 --> 00:58:24.949
to say more. We're going to have a plethora of

00:58:24.949 --> 00:58:27.269
people to choose from to fill what will probably

00:58:27.269 --> 00:58:29.690
be about 40 slots this year through attrition

00:58:29.690 --> 00:58:33.710
plus the 22 new hires. And we're going to be

00:58:33.710 --> 00:58:35.530
a hiring factory for a while because now we're

00:58:35.530 --> 00:58:39.869
adding 22 every year to get to 2472. We've got

00:58:39.869 --> 00:58:42.090
a fire station that's going to start construction

00:58:42.090 --> 00:58:44.409
at the end of next year. It'll be our 14th station.

00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:47.519
And we're going to need 22 people just for that

00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:50.820
station alone when we open it up on top of the

00:58:50.820 --> 00:58:52.579
22 that we're going to be hiring. So there's

00:58:52.579 --> 00:58:55.619
44 plus we have an attrition rate of about 15

00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:58.840
a year. So we're going to be hiring a lot of

00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:00.599
people over the next several years and we're

00:59:00.599 --> 00:59:02.199
going to be making a lot of promotions over the

00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:04.500
next several years. But we're doing that. The

00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:07.360
chief is doing that in a very smart way. He's

00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:09.420
going to do it over a two year period of time

00:59:09.420 --> 00:59:13.679
because as we're transitioning. The guys are

00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:15.800
going to get more and more days off each year

00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:18.860
of this contract until they get to the fourth

00:59:18.860 --> 00:59:20.659
year. At the start of the fourth year, they'll

00:59:20.659 --> 00:59:23.760
actually go to 2472. But then they'll owe seven

00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.659
debit days back to the city that year. But next

00:59:27.659 --> 00:59:29.739
year, in 26, they're going to get six shifts

00:59:29.739 --> 00:59:32.840
off. The next year, 27, they're going to get

00:59:32.840 --> 00:59:35.699
12 shifts off. Then the third year, they're going

00:59:35.699 --> 00:59:40.030
to get 18 24 -hour shifts off. So every twice

00:59:40.030 --> 00:59:42.469
a month or six of the 12 months, they're going

00:59:42.469 --> 00:59:45.750
to get two five -day breaks. And then the other

00:59:45.750 --> 00:59:47.809
six months, they'll get a five -day break. We'll

00:59:47.809 --> 00:59:52.050
help put a 24 -hour vacation day up against one

00:59:52.050 --> 00:59:54.269
of those, and you're off 10 days. So you can

00:59:54.269 --> 00:59:55.849
see where this is going. We're going to have

00:59:55.849 --> 00:59:58.849
a lot of people that are going to be wanting

00:59:58.849 --> 01:00:01.150
to come on the department. But we're going to

01:00:01.150 --> 01:00:03.210
need those promotions in advance because we're

01:00:03.210 --> 01:00:05.659
going to be having people off. you know you're

01:00:05.659 --> 01:00:07.119
going to still need a captain or a lieutenant

01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:09.840
what have you so a driver so we're going to stage

01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:13.579
those in but the chief and his team they've done

01:00:13.579 --> 01:00:16.960
a remarkable job of laying all this out preparing

01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:20.280
for it i mean i think it's going to go relatively

01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:22.199
smooth there's always going to be a gotcha that

01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.500
we didn't see that's just part of life but i'm

01:00:25.500 --> 01:00:27.960
excited i'm excited for the next generation of

01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:30.380
firefighters i'm excited for my brothers and

01:00:30.380 --> 01:00:34.039
sisters that are going to be able to I always

01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.639
used to tell them, I want you to go home safe,

01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:41.199
and that was a mantra in the fire service for

01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:44.539
many years. Everybody goes home. When I would

01:00:44.539 --> 01:00:46.300
talk to my people, I would always tell them,

01:00:46.340 --> 01:00:48.219
when I say everybody goes home, my definition

01:00:48.219 --> 01:00:50.739
is you go home 30 years from now with a healthy

01:00:50.739 --> 01:00:53.380
heart, a healthy set of lungs, a healthy mind,

01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:56.440
and I joke to go break the retirement system.

01:00:57.059 --> 01:00:59.860
Live so long that you get way more out of it

01:00:59.860 --> 01:01:02.719
than you put in. That's my definition of go home.

01:01:03.190 --> 01:01:05.989
And so this is just the next iteration of bringing,

01:01:06.190 --> 01:01:09.750
you know, health and wellness to the fire department.

01:01:09.869 --> 01:01:13.469
And not pat myself on the back. I had a hell

01:01:13.469 --> 01:01:16.610
of a team around me. But while I was the chief,

01:01:16.710 --> 01:01:18.510
when I got here, we had no health and wellness

01:01:18.510 --> 01:01:23.309
program. No, you know, 1582 type physical. We

01:01:23.309 --> 01:01:25.590
got live scan in here and we've now had them

01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:27.610
for, I guess, about eight years in a row now.

01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:30.420
and they have found a plethora of things wrong

01:01:30.420 --> 01:01:32.840
with our guys at the early stages where it's

01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:36.280
been curable. We got plow events. We didn't have

01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:38.599
a single exhaust capture in any of our stations.

01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:42.900
We got it all in our stations, and we got extractors

01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:45.619
at every station so the bunker gear can be properly

01:01:45.619 --> 01:01:49.099
washed in a professional machine. We've done

01:01:49.099 --> 01:01:51.659
all those things while I was the chief. Now,

01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:55.599
let me back up real quick and say that happened.

01:01:56.139 --> 01:01:59.019
Because did I champion it? Absolutely. But if

01:01:59.019 --> 01:02:01.860
the people in this building didn't buy into it,

01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:05.699
it wouldn't have happened. If my now city manager,

01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:07.460
who was the deputy city manager that I worked

01:02:07.460 --> 01:02:09.380
for at the time, if he didn't drink the Kool

01:02:09.380 --> 01:02:11.460
-Aid and believe in it, and he didn't make it

01:02:11.460 --> 01:02:13.579
a priority to take to the city manager, Bruce

01:02:13.579 --> 01:02:15.760
Glasscock, who hired me and was our longtime

01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:18.599
city manager slash former police chief here in

01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:21.920
the city before moving into this role, our city

01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:25.500
manager. If they didn't buy into it, then they

01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:27.119
wouldn't have been able to have gotten the mayor

01:02:27.119 --> 01:02:29.039
and the council to buy into it. So the purse

01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:31.539
strings have to come into this equation. There's

01:02:31.539 --> 01:02:33.820
no money tree. This stuff has to come from somewhere.

01:02:33.980 --> 01:02:37.179
And there's only so much pie. So the prioritization

01:02:37.179 --> 01:02:39.820
of these things happened because the leaders.

01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:43.480
So, yeah, I was the cheerleader for it. But if

01:02:43.480 --> 01:02:45.900
my city manager was to get out of my office and

01:02:45.900 --> 01:02:47.739
don't bring it up again, I mean, it falls. It

01:02:47.739 --> 01:02:49.480
stops right there. I mean, that's just the real

01:02:49.480 --> 01:02:53.650
world we live in. And so. A lot of the things

01:02:53.650 --> 01:02:55.909
that have happened have happened because of the

01:02:55.909 --> 01:02:58.489
culture of our city. We actually have people

01:02:58.489 --> 01:03:01.809
with the highest levels that truly believe that

01:03:01.809 --> 01:03:05.949
public safety is paramount to the public. It's

01:03:05.949 --> 01:03:10.449
important to everybody, and we have an onus on

01:03:10.449 --> 01:03:12.730
us to make sure that we're giving our troops,

01:03:12.949 --> 01:03:17.230
fire, police, EMS, the best equipment, the best

01:03:17.230 --> 01:03:21.179
training. And then all the things like peer fitness,

01:03:21.579 --> 01:03:24.340
being able to, you know, we didn't have a peer

01:03:24.340 --> 01:03:27.579
team. You know, we bought people in from New

01:03:27.579 --> 01:03:32.360
York and from the IFF, and we formed a peer team.

01:03:32.539 --> 01:03:38.139
And we've worked hard. And so 24 -72, to me,

01:03:38.179 --> 01:03:41.340
is just the next step. That's really what it

01:03:41.340 --> 01:03:44.820
boils down to. It's just the next step in following

01:03:44.820 --> 01:03:48.150
the science and doing the right thing. to try

01:03:48.150 --> 01:03:51.050
to provide the best. And for those out there

01:03:51.050 --> 01:03:53.550
in the world that will go, well, if you're really

01:03:53.550 --> 01:03:55.849
trying to limit hours, then put them on a 40

01:03:55.849 --> 01:03:58.170
-hour work week and put them on 7 to 3, 3 to

01:03:58.170 --> 01:04:00.530
11, 11 to 7. They've never worked on a damn fire

01:04:00.530 --> 01:04:02.289
truck or an ambulance, or they wouldn't bring

01:04:02.289 --> 01:04:06.489
that up. That's not how it works. So, you know,

01:04:06.510 --> 01:04:09.750
the sweet spot is that 24 hours. We're built

01:04:09.750 --> 01:04:13.670
for that. We can do that. We manage that just

01:04:13.670 --> 01:04:17.269
fine. after that is when you need to have that

01:04:17.269 --> 01:04:19.690
break when you do have a bad 24. And I know I'm

01:04:19.690 --> 01:04:22.409
preaching to the choir here, but, you know, we

01:04:22.409 --> 01:04:26.150
can tell. Firefighter safety has always been

01:04:26.150 --> 01:04:29.750
number one for me, and I don't apologize for

01:04:29.750 --> 01:04:33.030
it, and I never will. Well, we were talking before

01:04:33.030 --> 01:04:35.610
we hit record about, and I've heard this with

01:04:35.610 --> 01:04:37.949
Pasco and other places where this has been successful,

01:04:38.110 --> 01:04:41.050
obviously there has to be collaboration, union,

01:04:41.250 --> 01:04:43.469
city, you know, the firefighters themselves,

01:04:43.809 --> 01:04:47.309
the chiefs. Otherwise, if egos are getting in

01:04:47.309 --> 01:04:49.489
the way, nothing's going to happen. Talk to me

01:04:49.489 --> 01:04:52.789
about the initial conversation and the resistance

01:04:52.789 --> 01:04:57.489
that you got with the 4896 proposal. And then

01:04:57.489 --> 01:05:00.570
how were you able to convince the membership

01:05:00.570 --> 01:05:03.710
themselves, but also from a financial point of

01:05:03.710 --> 01:05:07.289
view, show the city not only the improvement

01:05:07.289 --> 01:05:09.969
and the health of their firefighters, but the

01:05:09.969 --> 01:05:14.369
fiscal element as well? Well, just real quick

01:05:14.369 --> 01:05:16.869
on 4896. I mean, I was against it when I was

01:05:16.869 --> 01:05:18.550
the fire chief. Like I said, it was something

01:05:18.550 --> 01:05:21.329
that was, you know, it's caught on here in Texas

01:05:21.329 --> 01:05:23.590
really big. And the more departments that go

01:05:23.590 --> 01:05:26.550
to it, the more than the pressure is, well, we're

01:05:26.550 --> 01:05:28.369
going to lose our people over there. So we've

01:05:28.369 --> 01:05:31.630
got to go to it now, too. And, you know, I just

01:05:31.630 --> 01:05:34.769
said, guys, you know, no, we're not doing it.

01:05:37.059 --> 01:05:39.260
I actually did a video for the department years

01:05:39.260 --> 01:05:41.139
ago when I was still the chief, just shutting

01:05:41.139 --> 01:05:43.280
that down. We're not going to have that conversation.

01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:48.260
We're not doing it. Stop. Because two days in

01:05:48.260 --> 01:05:51.860
the saddle at a busy company is just not a good,

01:05:51.940 --> 01:05:53.420
like I said, the science. We're going to have

01:05:53.420 --> 01:05:56.340
to rehash it. So when I got into this position,

01:05:56.420 --> 01:06:00.730
and obviously. I was still against it. And the

01:06:00.730 --> 01:06:03.349
guys knew that. And I became public enemy number

01:06:03.349 --> 01:06:05.289
one, if I'm just being candid about it. I mean,

01:06:05.309 --> 01:06:07.289
not everybody in the department was ready to

01:06:07.289 --> 01:06:09.969
beat on me, but a good chunk of them were. And

01:06:09.969 --> 01:06:12.889
it got really ugly. It got really personal attacks

01:06:12.889 --> 01:06:15.590
on social media and stuff like that. But rule

01:06:15.590 --> 01:06:18.650
one, if you're going to be the fire chief, you

01:06:18.650 --> 01:06:21.070
better have thick skin. So you can't let that,

01:06:21.130 --> 01:06:22.829
you know, when everybody was, when I was doing

01:06:22.829 --> 01:06:24.510
stuff that they all loved and they were ready

01:06:24.510 --> 01:06:27.150
to make a bronze statue of me. You got to hold

01:06:27.150 --> 01:06:28.969
that lightly and don't drink that Kool -Aid.

01:06:29.110 --> 01:06:31.369
And when they were ready to, you know, say I

01:06:31.369 --> 01:06:33.469
was the worst guy ever in the city, you can't

01:06:33.469 --> 01:06:35.150
let that bother you either. You just have to.

01:06:35.829 --> 01:06:38.849
My whole focus has always been taking care of

01:06:38.849 --> 01:06:42.030
them. When I was a bat chief and I would say,

01:06:42.070 --> 01:06:45.630
guys, get out, get out, give me a par. They'd

01:06:45.630 --> 01:06:48.650
get mad at me. We could have got it. OK, yeah,

01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:50.929
whatever. Maybe you could have. But then maybe

01:06:50.929 --> 01:06:52.489
you couldn't have. And I'm not going to kneel

01:06:52.489 --> 01:06:55.969
down and hand a flag to your wife. So. If you

01:06:55.969 --> 01:06:57.690
want to get mad at me because I'm trying to protect

01:06:57.690 --> 01:07:01.190
you, get mad at me. And that was my whole point

01:07:01.190 --> 01:07:03.829
is it's not that I'm anti -4896 or I don't want

01:07:03.829 --> 01:07:05.570
the guys to be happy. Nothing could be further

01:07:05.570 --> 01:07:08.210
than the truth. I want them to be healthy, and

01:07:08.210 --> 01:07:11.550
it's not a healthy way. And I get some people

01:07:11.550 --> 01:07:13.309
are doing it out of necessity, whatever. I'm

01:07:13.309 --> 01:07:16.110
not going to debate if that's really what people

01:07:16.110 --> 01:07:17.789
believe in their heart. But, again, they're not

01:07:17.789 --> 01:07:21.550
following the science. And so we had to get past

01:07:21.550 --> 01:07:24.130
that, which that wasn't very hard to do at all.

01:07:24.940 --> 01:07:26.820
What I'm going to give the guys a lot of credit

01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:30.420
for, James, is I wouldn't know everything I know

01:07:30.420 --> 01:07:33.559
now had they not been bringing up wanting to

01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:36.340
go to 4896 and beating that drum and turning

01:07:36.340 --> 01:07:38.820
it into a really big political issue here in

01:07:38.820 --> 01:07:41.559
our city. They did a media campaign. They they

01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:43.880
they're professional. I'll give them that. I

01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:45.619
mean, they went about it, you know, in a way

01:07:45.619 --> 01:07:47.320
they were trying to line their ducks up, but

01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:49.800
they didn't have the science on their side. And

01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:51.719
all they had is everybody else is doing it. That's

01:07:51.719 --> 01:07:54.000
not a good argument. And so it was easy to sell

01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:57.039
our elected officials and my manager on, no,

01:07:57.099 --> 01:08:00.539
here's the science. But what that led was while

01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:03.039
I'm trying to prove about the fatigue, the things

01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:04.840
that you know innately, because I've lived the

01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:06.820
job and I already know what it's going to do

01:08:06.820 --> 01:08:09.840
to you. I had to start getting the science lined

01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:12.000
up. So when you start doing scholarly work and

01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:13.960
you're looking for articles, you're looking for

01:08:13.960 --> 01:08:17.060
podcasts, you're looking, you find stuff like

01:08:17.060 --> 01:08:20.939
yours that I tripped onto. The interesting thing.

01:08:21.659 --> 01:08:24.060
was I wound up talking to one of our council

01:08:24.060 --> 01:08:28.479
members and she goes, have you seen the podcast

01:08:28.479 --> 01:08:33.020
with the guy with the funny accent? And she goes,

01:08:33.180 --> 01:08:38.140
this 24 -72, that's the way to go. So we had

01:08:38.140 --> 01:08:40.199
council members that were doing their own research.

01:08:41.350 --> 01:08:44.529
And it all led to, so what I'm going to credit

01:08:44.529 --> 01:08:46.750
the guys for is if they hadn't have raised all

01:08:46.750 --> 01:08:49.210
the hell that they did to start trying to say

01:08:49.210 --> 01:08:54.010
we want 4896, then a lot of this wouldn't have

01:08:54.010 --> 01:08:56.890
come to light. You don't know what you don't

01:08:56.890 --> 01:09:00.210
know. And so when you really start looking at

01:09:00.210 --> 01:09:02.210
it, because it is new here, it's not something

01:09:02.210 --> 01:09:04.970
that's prevalent in Texas. And so when you start

01:09:04.970 --> 01:09:07.970
looking at all the data, the science, but this

01:09:07.970 --> 01:09:10.720
councilwoman. She brought up the fact that this

01:09:10.720 --> 01:09:13.279
is going to save us money. She put the two and

01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:15.920
two together that fast. And she's like, this

01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:17.819
is going to lower our cancer rates. This is going

01:09:17.819 --> 01:09:19.319
to lower our workman's comp. This is going to

01:09:19.319 --> 01:09:21.979
lower. So morally, it's the right thing to do,

01:09:22.119 --> 01:09:24.979
clearly. But if you need a financial reason,

01:09:25.119 --> 01:09:27.279
she started putting it together. She's very,

01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:30.359
very astute. Her name's Julie Homer. I don't

01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.619
think she would mind me sharing her name. She's

01:09:32.619 --> 01:09:35.859
a very intelligent woman. She does her homework.

01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:39.939
She figured out really quick that this was a

01:09:39.939 --> 01:09:43.939
good thing. So bringing the guys in and having

01:09:43.939 --> 01:09:46.279
the conversation, it was not a hard sell at all.

01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:49.220
I mean, my manager and I, and again, he's not

01:09:49.220 --> 01:09:52.720
on this call, but I'm telling you, you want to

01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:56.000
interview somebody that's just not from a fire

01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:58.279
background, but just a super intelligent man

01:09:58.279 --> 01:10:01.319
who cares about the employees as well as the

01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:05.420
citizens. Mark Isrelson. best boss in the world.

01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:06.979
I mean, that's the only reason why I've stayed

01:10:06.979 --> 01:10:08.760
in the saddle as long as I have is because I

01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:10.659
just love working for the guys. He's a super

01:10:10.659 --> 01:10:14.739
ethical man. His dad's a retired FBI officer

01:10:14.739 --> 01:10:19.439
for many, many years. And so he grew up around

01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:22.779
public safety, but he's got that mindset of taking

01:10:22.779 --> 01:10:27.479
care of the troops. And so this was a collaborative

01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:30.390
effort. Yes, we as management, I think what makes

01:10:30.390 --> 01:10:32.510
this different is we're the ones that reached

01:10:32.510 --> 01:10:34.890
out to them and said, hey, come talk to us, and

01:10:34.890 --> 01:10:38.430
we'd like to talk about 24 -72. And my boss and

01:10:38.430 --> 01:10:40.170
I had conversations, and he's like, you know,

01:10:40.229 --> 01:10:42.630
it may take 10 or 12 years, but there's something

01:10:42.630 --> 01:10:44.689
I'd like to work toward. And we were talking

01:10:44.689 --> 01:10:47.229
one day, and I said, well, what if the guys took

01:10:47.229 --> 01:10:50.890
a pay cut, or what if they froze wages for X

01:10:50.890 --> 01:10:53.470
number of years? And he's like, that's a conversation

01:10:53.470 --> 01:10:56.000
we can have. So the more we were talking about

01:10:56.000 --> 01:10:58.039
it behind the scenes here, the more we realized

01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:01.479
that there's a way to get there. And so when

01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:03.899
we bought them in and we initially talked about

01:11:03.899 --> 01:11:06.739
it and we said, you know, we're going to need

01:11:06.739 --> 01:11:09.100
meet and confer. Again, this is management. This

01:11:09.100 --> 01:11:11.739
is what makes this so unusual. Normally, the

01:11:11.739 --> 01:11:13.460
union would be coming to the leadership saying

01:11:13.460 --> 01:11:15.920
we'd like to get meet and confer and trying to

01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:17.760
win the city over. We're telling them we're going

01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:22.319
to need meet and confer. You know, it just worked

01:11:22.319 --> 01:11:25.039
out. My legal department, you know, they hired

01:11:25.039 --> 01:11:27.079
an attorney that I've worked with before when

01:11:27.079 --> 01:11:30.760
I was in Fort Worth. Best guy that I know that

01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:33.600
does collective bargaining and so forth and works

01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:36.479
for the city. But he's pragmatic. He wants to

01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:40.460
not alienate the firefighters. Just a great guy.

01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:44.199
And Lowell Denton and his firm. We had this thing

01:11:44.199 --> 01:11:46.699
put together. I mean, our negotiations, James,

01:11:46.819 --> 01:11:50.720
took one day. We scheduled it and it like started

01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:52.699
at 830 in the morning. And I think we were done

01:11:52.699 --> 01:11:54.920
by two in the afternoon with a handshake agreement.

01:11:55.180 --> 01:11:57.220
And then it was a matter of getting the harder

01:11:57.220 --> 01:12:00.539
part was boiling it down to a legal document

01:12:00.539 --> 01:12:03.979
that covers everything we had talked about. But

01:12:03.979 --> 01:12:07.460
even that process, once we got that done, the

01:12:07.460 --> 01:12:09.720
back and forth and the minor changes and the

01:12:09.720 --> 01:12:12.760
things that had to happen, you know, the sausage

01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:16.119
making was not as ugly as what people would think.

01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:19.979
Because again, it was a common goal. Y 'all want

01:12:19.979 --> 01:12:22.119
more time off with your families. Y 'all want

01:12:22.119 --> 01:12:24.800
long -term better health. We want those same

01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:27.439
things for you. Now, how do we get there? And

01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:30.020
it can't be that we just print the money because

01:12:30.020 --> 01:12:32.619
I can't close a library down. You know, we can't

01:12:32.619 --> 01:12:35.600
close a rec center down. You can't raise taxes

01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:37.479
on people. I mean, none of those things are going

01:12:37.479 --> 01:12:39.520
to be palatable either. So you have to figure

01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:43.720
out how can we get there. But again, it starts

01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:46.479
with... you know, having a very ethical leadership

01:12:46.479 --> 01:12:49.479
from the mayor and the council, my city manager,

01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:51.899
just like I said, being a rock star, all those

01:12:51.899 --> 01:12:54.260
things I told you that I was given for firefighter

01:12:54.260 --> 01:12:56.819
health and wellness. I put that together my first

01:12:56.819 --> 01:12:59.819
year here as my strategic plan, like the five

01:12:59.819 --> 01:13:03.220
-year plan. He pushed all the chips over to me

01:13:03.220 --> 01:13:05.739
in the very first year. He came into my office

01:13:05.739 --> 01:13:08.079
one evening and said, hey, me and the manager

01:13:08.079 --> 01:13:10.060
are talking and this is what you're going to

01:13:10.060 --> 01:13:12.500
get. And I'm like. And oh, by the way, it was

01:13:12.500 --> 01:13:14.979
31 new positions. We added two truck companies

01:13:14.979 --> 01:13:17.600
and a couple of staffers. And amongst all that

01:13:17.600 --> 01:13:19.539
other stuff, it was a $6 million increase in

01:13:19.539 --> 01:13:23.119
one year. But they're like, hey, you made your

01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:25.380
case. And I said, we needed a training center.

01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:27.140
And they said, you'll be on the next bond election

01:13:27.140 --> 01:13:29.319
to get a training center built. We've got a world

01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:32.720
-class training center now, thanks to the citizens.

01:13:32.779 --> 01:13:35.800
So our community has always valued public safety.

01:13:36.699 --> 01:13:39.500
I give all of our officers in the police department

01:13:39.500 --> 01:13:41.920
and the fire department. immense amount of credit

01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:45.060
because they understand the citizens are who

01:13:45.060 --> 01:13:48.939
we work for and they deliver service at a level

01:13:48.939 --> 01:13:51.460
that few departments deliver i mean the little

01:13:51.460 --> 01:13:54.159
things you know if you those guys are buying

01:13:54.159 --> 01:13:56.359
groceries for the shift and they see a little

01:13:56.359 --> 01:13:59.199
old lady taking her groceries out they'll run

01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:01.739
out and put them in her car uh you know they're

01:14:01.739 --> 01:14:04.020
they're always going that extra mile here to

01:14:04.020 --> 01:14:06.619
do great things and they and they've got that

01:14:06.619 --> 01:14:10.430
public capital on their side and so We didn't

01:14:10.430 --> 01:14:13.329
have a single person in a city of almost 300

01:14:13.329 --> 01:14:16.829
,000 people. This was voted on by the council

01:14:16.829 --> 01:14:20.029
last week on Tuesday night. Not a single person

01:14:20.029 --> 01:14:23.270
came and spoke out against this. There's always

01:14:23.270 --> 01:14:25.869
someone that's going to have opposition. No one

01:14:25.869 --> 01:14:27.810
from the community came out and spoke against

01:14:27.810 --> 01:14:30.649
this. And if you went back and watched the tape,

01:14:30.789 --> 01:14:34.789
it's available online at Plano .gov. Almost every

01:14:34.789 --> 01:14:37.899
single council member spoke. And they all spoke

01:14:37.899 --> 01:14:40.520
about why this was important to do this and why

01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:43.420
it was the right thing to do. And it was a unanimous

01:14:43.420 --> 01:14:47.659
vote, eight to zero. That just doesn't happen

01:14:47.659 --> 01:14:49.640
in a lot of communities because egos get in the

01:14:49.640 --> 01:14:52.380
way. People get their feelings hurt because there

01:14:52.380 --> 01:14:54.640
was some sharp elbows or some verbal jabs that

01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:57.779
were thrown. And again, if I got my feelings

01:14:57.779 --> 01:15:00.420
hurt every time somebody said something bad about

01:15:00.420 --> 01:15:03.770
me when I was the fire chief. You know, I'd have

01:15:03.770 --> 01:15:07.069
to have counseling for that. You have to grow

01:15:07.069 --> 01:15:09.550
thick skin, just like firefighters have to be

01:15:09.550 --> 01:15:12.750
thick skinned in the station. You got to let

01:15:12.750 --> 01:15:15.069
that stuff go. So, you know, I'm very proud of

01:15:15.069 --> 01:15:17.050
our city. I'm proud of our leadership on both

01:15:17.050 --> 01:15:20.130
sides. The union president, Brad McCutcheon,

01:15:20.130 --> 01:15:23.369
and his team, we were professional. Even if we

01:15:23.369 --> 01:15:25.510
weren't in agreeance, we were still professional.

01:15:26.270 --> 01:15:30.130
But we got to a point. where we can shake hands

01:15:30.130 --> 01:15:32.729
and make this deal work. And it's going to be

01:15:32.729 --> 01:15:38.029
a game changer. And my hope is that we're not

01:15:38.029 --> 01:15:39.869
the last department in the region that goes to

01:15:39.869 --> 01:15:41.949
this. I'm hoping that other city managers, but

01:15:41.949 --> 01:15:44.869
I will tell you that my boss, going back to being

01:15:44.869 --> 01:15:48.729
a great guy, he's kind of been shunned by some

01:15:48.729 --> 01:15:52.489
of his brethren, other city managers. You know,

01:15:52.489 --> 01:15:54.970
what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And

01:15:54.970 --> 01:16:00.119
to me, it was like, this is the right thing to

01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:03.439
do. And again, people say, well, why didn't you

01:16:03.439 --> 01:16:05.340
get there sooner? It's like I said before, you

01:16:05.340 --> 01:16:07.460
don't know what you don't know. It wasn't something

01:16:07.460 --> 01:16:11.100
that was even being talked about. I think the

01:16:11.100 --> 01:16:14.800
first time I ever heard of 2472 was three or

01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:16.819
four years ago at a Metro Chiefs conference from

01:16:16.819 --> 01:16:18.840
the Washington, D .C. Fire Chief, who's a buddy

01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:20.920
of mine, John Donnelly. And they've been working,

01:16:20.939 --> 01:16:24.300
I think he said, for like 20 years. And that's

01:16:24.300 --> 01:16:27.239
something I had not heard of. Heard a lot about

01:16:27.239 --> 01:16:31.100
4896. Heard a lot about later start times, but

01:16:31.100 --> 01:16:34.079
never about 2472. And then, like I said, when

01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:37.960
I started doing research about the detriment

01:16:37.960 --> 01:16:40.859
of staying awake for too many hours, it led me

01:16:40.859 --> 01:16:44.300
to your website. And I started watching your

01:16:44.300 --> 01:16:46.460
podcast, and you're good about saying episode

01:16:46.460 --> 01:16:49.260
whatever, and you've got your directory. So I

01:16:49.260 --> 01:16:51.060
was able to start going and looking those up.

01:16:51.260 --> 01:16:54.680
And if you're willing to come in with an open

01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:58.500
mind, James, you're going to get to the same

01:16:58.500 --> 01:17:01.000
conclusion. How you get there financially, all

01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:04.539
that stuff, that's the sausage making. But if

01:17:04.539 --> 01:17:07.880
you with a straight face can look at the data

01:17:07.880 --> 01:17:12.380
and come away and say, oh, it's a fad or it's

01:17:12.380 --> 01:17:16.340
BS, you're burying your head in the sand because

01:17:16.340 --> 01:17:19.739
the science is the science, my friend. And that's

01:17:19.739 --> 01:17:21.460
why I reached out to you and told you thank you.

01:17:22.029 --> 01:17:24.390
for educating me. You didn't realize you were

01:17:24.390 --> 01:17:26.289
doing it at the time, but I was watching your

01:17:26.289 --> 01:17:28.449
programs and watching your speakers and reading

01:17:28.449 --> 01:17:31.130
everything I could read. And it became evident

01:17:31.130 --> 01:17:36.789
that this is the future. And how quickly we can

01:17:36.789 --> 01:17:39.229
adapt to it, I don't know, but I hope we can

01:17:39.229 --> 01:17:42.970
get there quickly as a profession. Like I said,

01:17:43.149 --> 01:17:47.649
I'm going to be leaving government here in four

01:17:47.649 --> 01:17:51.659
months. I'm leaving on a high note. I'm glad

01:17:51.659 --> 01:17:55.359
that my guys are going to be safe. But I want

01:17:55.359 --> 01:17:57.739
this for all firefighters everywhere because

01:17:57.739 --> 01:18:00.520
I think it's the way that we need to be operating.

01:18:00.899 --> 01:18:06.239
And I think our department will be like a test

01:18:06.239 --> 01:18:10.380
bed. And again, there's plans in place to measure

01:18:10.380 --> 01:18:14.340
over the years. They've already started laying

01:18:14.340 --> 01:18:16.380
out the matrix of how this how they're going

01:18:16.380 --> 01:18:18.619
to measure and quantify that this was the right

01:18:18.619 --> 01:18:21.260
decision to make with what we think will be lower

01:18:21.260 --> 01:18:23.979
heart rates, heart attacks, lower cancer rates,

01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:27.840
lower PTSD issues, hopefully less divorces. All

01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:30.420
that stuff is going to be tracked. And I believe

01:18:30.420 --> 01:18:33.500
that the answer is clear what it's going to lead

01:18:33.500 --> 01:18:38.060
to. Well, I mean, I'm so glad that you found

01:18:38.060 --> 01:18:41.329
the. The podcast, as did you said, one of the

01:18:41.329 --> 01:18:44.369
council members and then Logan and Jaime. I mean,

01:18:44.390 --> 01:18:45.989
all these different people from the department

01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:48.210
were diving into this. And this is the whole

01:18:48.210 --> 01:18:51.430
point of the Behind the Shield podcast is it

01:18:51.430 --> 01:18:53.689
is a free library. And this is what drives me

01:18:53.689 --> 01:18:55.449
crazy when locally there's so much resistance

01:18:55.449 --> 01:18:58.130
because they've had access to it a lot longer.

01:18:58.170 --> 01:19:00.449
The word has been going around. But that aside.

01:19:02.009 --> 01:19:05.250
What's interesting is you didn't have even the

01:19:05.250 --> 01:19:07.770
same financial pull that a lot of the country

01:19:07.770 --> 01:19:09.930
does. As you alluded to, you were still able

01:19:09.930 --> 01:19:11.949
to hire. You didn't have that mandatory overtime

01:19:11.949 --> 01:19:14.789
crisis that we're seeing all over the nation,

01:19:14.930 --> 01:19:20.329
which adds yet another couple of layers of financial...

01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:24.220
You know, when you have tens, if not hundreds

01:19:24.220 --> 01:19:26.420
of millions of dollars in overtime, and you have

01:19:26.420 --> 01:19:29.239
the same, you know, in lack of retention, you're

01:19:29.239 --> 01:19:30.800
training all these young people, you put them

01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:33.079
to school, two, three years later, they're gone.

01:19:33.619 --> 01:19:37.079
This is also a huge downstream budget that you

01:19:37.079 --> 01:19:40.680
can put in to the recruitment of the fourth shift.

01:19:41.420 --> 01:19:43.779
What is really interesting about the way you've

01:19:43.779 --> 01:19:46.430
done it, and this is what I'm loving now. is

01:19:46.430 --> 01:19:48.670
i'm starting to see the innovation well how do

01:19:48.670 --> 01:19:53.149
you go from a 24 48 to a 24 72 with a kelly day

01:19:53.149 --> 01:19:55.949
without a kelly day and so people are figuring

01:19:55.949 --> 01:19:58.270
it out and that's certainly not from from my

01:19:58.270 --> 01:20:00.649
podcast i'm sharing stories like this where people

01:20:00.649 --> 01:20:02.890
from departments are telling well hey here were

01:20:02.890 --> 01:20:05.250
the challenges we had here's how we got around

01:20:05.250 --> 01:20:07.649
it we're considering reciprocity i mean all these

01:20:07.649 --> 01:20:09.989
different nuances that i think are just going

01:20:09.989 --> 01:20:14.510
to push us even further ahead but One truth has

01:20:14.510 --> 01:20:16.229
become very clear. I'd love to kind of get you

01:20:16.229 --> 01:20:19.789
again just to dig a little deeper into the five

01:20:19.789 --> 01:20:22.789
-year plan that you have. I've heard people say,

01:20:22.909 --> 01:20:24.369
well, we're just going to start off by going

01:20:24.369 --> 01:20:27.909
to a Kelly day. Now, let's take the average department

01:20:27.909 --> 01:20:31.069
that is woefully understaffed, you know, mandatory

01:20:31.069 --> 01:20:33.470
overtime. They're already bleeding people. They're

01:20:33.470 --> 01:20:37.250
bleeding money. And you're going to take a Kelly

01:20:37.250 --> 01:20:40.010
day. So now every third day, you're going to

01:20:40.010 --> 01:20:44.550
give someone a day off. That now creates even

01:20:44.550 --> 01:20:47.630
more holes in the staffing and recruitment. That

01:20:47.630 --> 01:20:49.470
person's going to end up working their Kelly

01:20:49.470 --> 01:20:51.170
day and you're going to pay them time and a half

01:20:51.170 --> 01:20:54.770
for it. So it fixes nothing. Conversely, though,

01:20:54.869 --> 01:20:58.250
when a department says we are going to 2472,

01:20:58.329 --> 01:21:00.949
that's a declaration. Here's the matrix. It is

01:21:00.949 --> 01:21:03.989
happening. But we're going to take like two years

01:21:03.989 --> 01:21:06.489
like Pasco County did, five years like you guys

01:21:06.489 --> 01:21:09.590
are doing. Now you've got people already starting

01:21:09.590 --> 01:21:11.310
to line up because they're like, yeah, but they

01:21:11.310 --> 01:21:13.659
are going to it. They've made a commitment. And

01:21:13.659 --> 01:21:16.720
that is the difference, especially when you start

01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:20.399
hiring for that six -week Kelly, then that three

01:21:20.399 --> 01:21:23.119
-week Kelly. So it's not your people working

01:21:23.119 --> 01:21:26.039
those Kellys. It's the new people covering that.

01:21:26.199 --> 01:21:28.100
So I think that's a really important distinction.

01:21:28.340 --> 01:21:30.899
Can you kind of just take a deeper dive into

01:21:30.899 --> 01:21:34.619
the hiring that you're going to do? Well, firstly,

01:21:34.699 --> 01:21:38.640
the commitment to the 24 -72, knowing the recruitment,

01:21:38.720 --> 01:21:41.340
but then the hiring that you're going to do to

01:21:41.340 --> 01:21:43.880
fill, to cover these caddy days and ultimately,

01:21:44.020 --> 01:21:47.199
you know, create this 24 -72 four platoon system.

01:21:48.039 --> 01:21:50.100
And again, going back to the collaborative side,

01:21:50.260 --> 01:21:53.880
the five years was, that's the money side of

01:21:53.880 --> 01:21:55.939
it. You know, guys, we can only afford to hire

01:21:55.939 --> 01:22:00.340
22 a year. Everything I'm about to say is not

01:22:00.340 --> 01:22:04.220
Sam Greif. It's Chief Biggerstaff, Jaime, And

01:22:04.220 --> 01:22:07.079
another assistant chief down there who's probably

01:22:07.079 --> 01:22:09.020
one of the most brilliant minds I've ever worked

01:22:09.020 --> 01:22:11.659
with in my entire life in any profession named

01:22:11.659 --> 01:22:14.319
Jeff Moberly. They're the ones that have designed

01:22:14.319 --> 01:22:17.699
this along with the association to work it out.

01:22:17.840 --> 01:22:20.180
But how it will work is because we don't do Kelly

01:22:20.180 --> 01:22:23.779
days. We do FLSA overtime. And so what this is

01:22:23.779 --> 01:22:25.899
going to do is they're literally going to hire.

01:22:26.020 --> 01:22:28.819
And because we you already have to be certified

01:22:28.819 --> 01:22:32.479
firefighter, paramedic and now soon to be firefighter

01:22:32.479 --> 01:22:36.920
EMT. If we don't get enough medics, that's that

01:22:36.920 --> 01:22:39.920
starts. Look, we're testing this this month.

01:22:40.079 --> 01:22:42.880
That class will they will get those processed.

01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:45.899
We'll start. They're going to be out. We are

01:22:45.899 --> 01:22:50.060
going to have the people hired by March. We'll

01:22:50.060 --> 01:22:52.539
have everybody hired and they'll have to do two

01:22:52.539 --> 01:22:54.699
classes just due to the sheer size of probably

01:22:54.699 --> 01:22:57.460
about 20 in each class, because we've already

01:22:57.460 --> 01:22:59.760
got, you know, legacy openings just through attrition,

01:22:59.819 --> 01:23:02.970
what we talked about earlier. So. We'll get those

01:23:02.970 --> 01:23:06.829
folks hired. And starting in March of 26, coming

01:23:06.829 --> 01:23:09.569
up this next spring, is when everybody will start

01:23:09.569 --> 01:23:12.289
getting, because we got the people hired, now

01:23:12.289 --> 01:23:14.729
everybody gets those six days off throughout

01:23:14.729 --> 01:23:19.789
26. And then it's a rolling 12 months, so it's

01:23:19.789 --> 01:23:23.390
March to March. So then come March of, and again,

01:23:23.449 --> 01:23:24.869
the guys came up with this because they're like,

01:23:24.909 --> 01:23:26.630
we got to have time to hire the people and get

01:23:26.630 --> 01:23:28.409
them in the field so that we then can have the

01:23:28.409 --> 01:23:33.010
days off. As we hire 22 more, we just keep hiring

01:23:33.010 --> 01:23:35.529
22 new bodies above and beyond what we needed

01:23:35.529 --> 01:23:38.430
the previous year. That's what's leading us to

01:23:38.430 --> 01:23:41.569
allowing them to get more and more days off.

01:23:41.670 --> 01:23:44.170
So like I said, by the time you get into year

01:23:44.170 --> 01:23:46.470
three, and so it's the start of year three. You

01:23:46.470 --> 01:23:47.789
got to remember, all this is starting immediately.

01:23:48.050 --> 01:23:50.869
So the guys next year are going to get six 24

01:23:50.869 --> 01:23:52.890
-hour days off. So every other month, they're

01:23:52.890 --> 01:23:54.550
going to get a five -day vacation, essentially.

01:23:54.970 --> 01:23:56.989
The next year, they're going to get a five -day

01:23:56.989 --> 01:23:59.289
vacation every month of the year, all 12 months

01:23:59.289 --> 01:24:02.180
of the year. And then in the third year, they're

01:24:02.180 --> 01:24:05.340
going to get 18 five -day vacations. And then

01:24:05.340 --> 01:24:08.319
at the very beginning of what we're 36 months

01:24:08.319 --> 01:24:12.260
into this, the clock switches and we go to 4

01:24:12.260 --> 01:24:18.460
,872. And then throughout the year, they owe

01:24:18.460 --> 01:24:21.340
seven days that will be pre -assigned based on

01:24:21.340 --> 01:24:24.239
seniority, what your seven days that you're going

01:24:24.239 --> 01:24:28.560
to owe. I have no idea how the chief's going

01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:30.840
to do that yet as far as I know he's doing it

01:24:30.840 --> 01:24:33.579
by seniority. I don't know. Is it going to be

01:24:33.579 --> 01:24:36.579
your pull of 48 or is it going to be that you'll

01:24:36.579 --> 01:24:39.659
take a day off, come in and work a day and then

01:24:39.659 --> 01:24:41.539
take a day off and then, you know, and do that

01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:44.260
so that you're not having to pull 48? That would

01:24:44.260 --> 01:24:46.460
be my preference, but I'm not a micromanager.

01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:48.100
I'm not going to tell them how to do their business.

01:24:48.840 --> 01:24:52.779
So I don't really know that component yet, how

01:24:52.779 --> 01:24:56.359
they'll do that in that fourth year. But then

01:24:56.359 --> 01:25:00.359
after we've been doing this for 48 months, we're

01:25:00.359 --> 01:25:03.920
done starting that next beginning of the fifth

01:25:03.920 --> 01:25:06.020
year. So it's really just four years to get it

01:25:06.020 --> 01:25:09.359
complete. It'll be a pure 2472 because we will

01:25:09.359 --> 01:25:11.340
have hired up enough people at that point to

01:25:11.340 --> 01:25:15.239
fully create the D shift. And the other factor

01:25:15.239 --> 01:25:17.939
that this is kind of life changing for some folks,

01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.859
too, because the reality is this is going to

01:25:20.859 --> 01:25:24.989
create 40 promotions. from bat chiefs, two bat

01:25:24.989 --> 01:25:28.449
chiefs a day on duty, to all the captains, all

01:25:28.449 --> 01:25:31.510
the lieutenants, the drivers. There's going to

01:25:31.510 --> 01:25:34.170
be a lot of folks that this changes their life

01:25:34.170 --> 01:25:37.270
financially in a good way. They make rank, and

01:25:37.270 --> 01:25:39.510
not only does that make a better quality of life

01:25:39.510 --> 01:25:41.250
for the number of years they got left to work,

01:25:41.350 --> 01:25:42.949
but then their retirement's going to be based

01:25:42.949 --> 01:25:48.470
on that. So, you know, I truly think they've

01:25:48.470 --> 01:25:50.369
come up with a good method. Like I said, this

01:25:50.369 --> 01:25:53.210
was a... how can we get there you know you just

01:25:53.210 --> 01:25:57.289
keep talking it through and uh and we one of

01:25:57.289 --> 01:25:59.850
the other things to uh because you know obviously

01:25:59.850 --> 01:26:02.010
the contracts public record it's available online

01:26:02.010 --> 01:26:07.229
but um we we have a two -year top out so in plano

01:26:07.229 --> 01:26:10.109
when you hire in with us when you've been here

01:26:10.109 --> 01:26:12.729
24 months you're already at topped out and so

01:26:12.729 --> 01:26:17.109
what we said was uh stretch that to a five -year

01:26:17.109 --> 01:26:20.500
top out which out of the member cities that we

01:26:20.500 --> 01:26:22.760
compare to that the association and management

01:26:22.760 --> 01:26:24.560
of greed these are the 10 cities that are going

01:26:24.560 --> 01:26:26.399
to be in the pool or one of the 10 so there's

01:26:26.399 --> 01:26:30.100
nine others we compare to only one has a five

01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:32.020
-year top out all the rest of them are more than

01:26:32.020 --> 01:26:35.180
that and so we're stretching from two to five

01:26:35.180 --> 01:26:38.460
and that'll only be for new hires anybody that's

01:26:38.460 --> 01:26:40.760
a legacy that's already here before october one

01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:44.859
they'll still top out in two years anybody that

01:26:44.859 --> 01:26:47.159
comes after that will be on a five -year top

01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:51.500
out But that's not out of bounds with the industry.

01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:54.439
And we're still going to be tied for the best

01:26:54.439 --> 01:26:57.479
top out of anybody. There's some that are eight

01:26:57.479 --> 01:27:01.279
and nine years. So that poker chip was available.

01:27:02.159 --> 01:27:05.399
The FLSA savings, because to your point, you

01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:09.000
won't be having to work 56 hours a week. So you're

01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:11.300
not going to hit that 53 hour threshold anymore.

01:27:11.699 --> 01:27:14.319
That savings, you know, and that's how my boss

01:27:14.319 --> 01:27:17.739
looked at it is he called it savings. and he

01:27:17.739 --> 01:27:20.239
started calculating he's like you know i'm going

01:27:20.239 --> 01:27:22.500
to spend eight nine million dollars over the

01:27:22.500 --> 01:27:25.119
next five years no matter what just because of

01:27:25.119 --> 01:27:27.340
the way we do raises and so forth and he's like

01:27:27.340 --> 01:27:31.060
so really i got a delta of about 10 million dollars

01:27:31.060 --> 01:27:33.439
is what i really have to deal with and so that

01:27:33.439 --> 01:27:38.239
you know and again it's to him that's a priority

01:27:38.239 --> 01:27:40.840
he'll find the 10 million dollars and so with

01:27:40.840 --> 01:27:43.520
the council and so with the mayor you know that

01:27:43.520 --> 01:27:46.300
old saying about what what's in you'll make time

01:27:47.050 --> 01:27:52.050
or you'll make financial availability to what's

01:27:52.050 --> 01:27:55.550
important to you. It's what's important to you.

01:27:55.689 --> 01:28:01.050
And, you know, this is such an easy decision

01:28:01.050 --> 01:28:05.770
and it's such a legacy in Plano that it's always

01:28:05.770 --> 01:28:08.590
been about firefighter safety, paramedic safety.

01:28:09.460 --> 01:28:12.420
and our police officers. It's always been about

01:28:12.420 --> 01:28:14.680
their safety. We don't ever cut corners. We drive

01:28:14.680 --> 01:28:16.960
Tahos in the police department across the board.

01:28:17.060 --> 01:28:19.920
Everybody drives a Tahoe. Why? They're big. They're

01:28:19.920 --> 01:28:22.939
beefy. They're comfortable. They're roomy. They

01:28:22.939 --> 01:28:24.699
hold up in a wreck a lot better than a sedan

01:28:24.699 --> 01:28:30.880
does. My police chief had come last year at the

01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:33.819
budget and said, I need to put in rifle shields.

01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:37.500
that are lightweight but can stop, or ours are

01:28:37.500 --> 01:28:39.800
old and heavy, and they're just, you know, they're

01:28:39.800 --> 01:28:42.899
basically useless. And he's a big man, and his

01:28:42.899 --> 01:28:44.920
quote was, it takes a full -grown man and a boy

01:28:44.920 --> 01:28:48.840
to carry it. And so it was to the tune of, I

01:28:48.840 --> 01:28:50.340
want to say, it's like a quarter of a million

01:28:50.340 --> 01:28:53.180
dollars to get everybody a rifle shield. And

01:28:53.180 --> 01:28:55.300
we're in our, these are the springtime budget

01:28:55.300 --> 01:28:57.340
meetings where you're gnashing to see what you're

01:28:57.340 --> 01:29:00.520
going to give this coming October. And my boss

01:29:00.520 --> 01:29:03.899
looked up and said, see, you're saying these

01:29:03.899 --> 01:29:07.020
will stop bullets and he's like yeah and he goes

01:29:07.020 --> 01:29:10.020
we're not waiting until next year to buy those

01:29:10.020 --> 01:29:11.640
he looked at the budget director and he said

01:29:11.640 --> 01:29:14.020
find the money now and get those things ordered

01:29:14.020 --> 01:29:17.739
that's how the priorities are in this city is

01:29:17.739 --> 01:29:19.880
that we're going to take care of our fire and

01:29:19.880 --> 01:29:23.399
police and so um and we don't apologize for it

01:29:23.399 --> 01:29:25.760
and we believe that that's why we're such a vibrant

01:29:25.760 --> 01:29:28.560
community is because companies want to come to

01:29:28.560 --> 01:29:31.979
a safe city And they know that these white -collar

01:29:31.979 --> 01:29:34.859
jobs are not going to relocate here if we don't

01:29:34.859 --> 01:29:37.140
have a good, safe city to live in and we don't

01:29:37.140 --> 01:29:39.939
have a good school district. So it's building

01:29:39.939 --> 01:29:44.100
blocks. But my whole point here is it was a collaborative

01:29:44.100 --> 01:29:47.180
effort, but I don't think in a lot of cities

01:29:47.180 --> 01:29:49.899
that you can get to the table and do a one -day

01:29:49.899 --> 01:29:53.819
negotiation because the egos are too big and

01:29:53.819 --> 01:29:56.000
there's too much scar tissue about what happened

01:29:56.000 --> 01:29:58.819
yesterday. and not enough concern about what's

01:29:58.819 --> 01:30:02.640
going to happen tomorrow and losing sight of

01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:05.420
what's really important. And I will tell you

01:30:05.420 --> 01:30:13.760
that I've had to give flags at funerals as the

01:30:13.760 --> 01:30:18.960
chief. Hands down, the suckiest part of my six

01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:21.880
and a half years as the fire chief. was dealing

01:30:21.880 --> 01:30:24.260
with, I had three members that were active duty.

01:30:24.340 --> 01:30:26.140
One was a line of duty. The other two were active

01:30:26.140 --> 01:30:30.880
duty desk in a span of 13 months. That's brutal.

01:30:31.119 --> 01:30:33.619
It's brutal on the department. It was brutal

01:30:33.619 --> 01:30:37.159
on me. And, you know, there's a brotherhood amongst

01:30:37.159 --> 01:30:40.180
five bugles that I guess I didn't really know

01:30:40.180 --> 01:30:43.180
existed until I became one. But the way my fellow

01:30:43.180 --> 01:30:45.439
chiefs around the Metroplex reached out to me

01:30:45.439 --> 01:30:47.760
and like, what do you need? What can we help

01:30:47.760 --> 01:30:50.260
you with? Let's go get a cup of coffee. Because

01:30:50.260 --> 01:30:52.220
they know you're grieving too as the chief. Even

01:30:52.220 --> 01:30:54.020
though I came from the outside and I didn't know

01:30:54.020 --> 01:30:57.600
these people legacy years like I would my brethren

01:30:57.600 --> 01:31:00.319
in Fort Worth, it still tears your heart out.

01:31:00.479 --> 01:31:03.680
It still, you feel this onus to, you want to,

01:31:03.680 --> 01:31:06.279
you're like a dad. You want to protect everybody.

01:31:06.380 --> 01:31:09.000
And I couldn't take their pain away from them.

01:31:09.300 --> 01:31:11.380
They were grieving. All I could do is try to

01:31:11.380 --> 01:31:14.199
make the funeral be as respectful as we possibly

01:31:14.199 --> 01:31:19.350
could. But it's tough. And when you deal with

01:31:19.350 --> 01:31:23.789
the human emotion of what we're going back to,

01:31:23.810 --> 01:31:27.350
again, I get most city managers, deputy city

01:31:27.350 --> 01:31:28.989
managers aren't going to look at this from the

01:31:28.989 --> 01:31:31.369
lens I'm looking at it from because this is not

01:31:31.369 --> 01:31:33.109
what they've been doing since they were 18 years

01:31:33.109 --> 01:31:37.329
old. Yeah, I'm passionate about it. I'm never

01:31:37.329 --> 01:31:39.109
going to apologize because we're going to spend

01:31:39.109 --> 01:31:41.470
money to take care of people. You've got to balance

01:31:41.470 --> 01:31:45.229
it. I get that. It's the right thing to do for

01:31:45.229 --> 01:31:48.569
all the right reasons. And it's an education.

01:31:48.569 --> 01:31:51.050
And I'm not faulting everybody out there who's

01:31:51.050 --> 01:31:53.470
not been educated yet because a year ago, James,

01:31:53.710 --> 01:31:56.369
I wasn't educated. No one had talked to me about

01:31:56.369 --> 01:32:03.210
24 -72. When you become educated, now it's a

01:32:03.210 --> 01:32:07.819
willful decision to neglect. and not follow through

01:32:07.819 --> 01:32:10.859
with a way to get there. And I'm not saying you

01:32:10.859 --> 01:32:12.699
got to get there quick. I get it. It can take

01:32:12.699 --> 01:32:17.579
a lot of time. But, you know, my boss was sincere

01:32:17.579 --> 01:32:19.720
when he looked at the union president and said,

01:32:19.859 --> 01:32:22.300
we're going to go to this no matter what. It

01:32:22.300 --> 01:32:25.939
may take me 10 or 12 years to work it in under

01:32:25.939 --> 01:32:28.380
the current way that we compensate y 'all and

01:32:28.380 --> 01:32:30.380
how we do things, but we're going to go to this.

01:32:30.579 --> 01:32:33.859
I mean, that was a foregone conclusion in his

01:32:33.859 --> 01:32:36.550
mind. Once he became educated. This was an easy

01:32:36.550 --> 01:32:39.069
decision as to what to do next. Now it's just

01:32:39.069 --> 01:32:40.890
how do you get there? And that's where the firefighters

01:32:40.890 --> 01:32:44.109
had to come into the equation and be willing

01:32:44.109 --> 01:32:48.050
to give to get. And they were. They were gentlemen

01:32:48.050 --> 01:32:50.850
about it. They've been stand up about it. And

01:32:50.850 --> 01:32:55.630
when it went to a vote, it passed with 96 % of

01:32:55.630 --> 01:32:58.550
the department saying, let's go to this. And

01:32:58.550 --> 01:33:01.529
I think they said there was 15 people that voted

01:33:01.529 --> 01:33:05.180
against it. And my gut tells me. It was probably

01:33:05.180 --> 01:33:07.460
driven by someone who's about to retire in the

01:33:07.460 --> 01:33:09.699
next year or two. And they're looking at the

01:33:09.699 --> 01:33:13.079
3 % that we get every year and going, well, I'd

01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:15.439
rather have that because my muster out pay would

01:33:15.439 --> 01:33:18.920
be higher. And would probably be the rationale

01:33:18.920 --> 01:33:22.279
for that. And again, I'm not casting stones against

01:33:22.279 --> 01:33:24.859
the people that said no, but it's a democracy.

01:33:25.899 --> 01:33:31.779
But 96%, that's a mandate. I know that term gets

01:33:31.779 --> 01:33:35.109
thrown around lightly. That's a mandate when

01:33:35.109 --> 01:33:38.130
you have 96 % saying, let's do this. And I'm

01:33:38.130 --> 01:33:41.250
telling you, ran into them at the 9 -11 memorial

01:33:41.250 --> 01:33:46.310
last week before last, and smiles, surgeons couldn't

01:33:46.310 --> 01:33:49.750
cut off. They were happy. They're excited. They're

01:33:49.750 --> 01:33:53.689
proud because Plano is known as being a leader

01:33:53.689 --> 01:33:57.250
here in the state and being progressive and doing

01:33:57.250 --> 01:34:00.609
things before you have to do them or you're forced

01:34:00.609 --> 01:34:03.279
to do them. And this is just that next level

01:34:03.279 --> 01:34:07.300
that we've taken it to. So like I said, I just

01:34:07.300 --> 01:34:11.880
hope other cities can follow suit and don't try

01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:15.100
to come up with excuses of it's a bad idea or

01:34:15.100 --> 01:34:17.119
you shouldn't do it. If you're just saying, look,

01:34:17.300 --> 01:34:19.100
we don't know how we're going to get there financially,

01:34:19.380 --> 01:34:24.279
that's a legitimate thing to say. So how can

01:34:24.279 --> 01:34:26.020
you do it? How many years will it take? What

01:34:26.020 --> 01:34:29.760
will the other side be willing to give and work

01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:33.970
through it? But, you know, as far as trying to

01:34:33.970 --> 01:34:37.189
say it's a bad thing or we shouldn't be doing

01:34:37.189 --> 01:34:40.850
it, that to me is just a ludicrous argument.

01:34:40.949 --> 01:34:43.630
That's, again, not following the science. Yeah.

01:34:43.689 --> 01:34:47.550
And I've heard that a lot here. But what's beautiful

01:34:47.550 --> 01:34:51.510
to counter that is there, what I've seen, I'll

01:34:51.510 --> 01:34:53.609
give credit, for example, Dixon Phillips of PASCO.

01:34:53.689 --> 01:34:55.470
I know he's been helping out some of the guys

01:34:55.470 --> 01:34:59.909
at your department as well. They spearheaded

01:34:59.909 --> 01:35:02.369
it in their own department. And what you're seeing

01:35:02.369 --> 01:35:04.390
is not, well, I've got all the secrets and I

01:35:04.390 --> 01:35:06.590
want to keep all the best people. You're seeing

01:35:06.590 --> 01:35:09.689
like, no, no, no, we figured out how to change

01:35:09.689 --> 01:35:12.270
the way that we work to make it proactive, to

01:35:12.270 --> 01:35:15.369
attract young recruits again, to fill these vacant

01:35:15.369 --> 01:35:18.010
overtime spots, to reduce the mental and physical

01:35:18.010 --> 01:35:20.949
health workman's comp claims, to have longevity

01:35:20.949 --> 01:35:24.069
in our career. And we want to share it with you.

01:35:24.329 --> 01:35:26.449
Gainesville, Pasco, Destin. I mean, all these

01:35:26.449 --> 01:35:28.829
departments that are kind of in it now, I've

01:35:28.829 --> 01:35:30.850
got to give maximum respect to them. They're

01:35:30.850 --> 01:35:33.250
out there helping anyone they can. Bending over

01:35:33.250 --> 01:35:36.510
back is Boynton Beach, another one. So this is

01:35:36.510 --> 01:35:39.970
what's so amazing to watch. And I know this has

01:35:39.970 --> 01:35:43.569
come across your bow of people outside going,

01:35:43.670 --> 01:35:45.350
well, now you're just going to be poaching our

01:35:45.350 --> 01:35:47.670
best people. And I want to be very clear about

01:35:47.670 --> 01:35:54.640
this. The rising tide lifts all ships. You said

01:35:54.640 --> 01:35:57.340
about 10 years ago is when you started seeing

01:35:57.340 --> 01:36:00.060
recruitment decline. I would say that's pretty

01:36:00.060 --> 01:36:02.039
spot on even here. Now, there's a couple of departments

01:36:02.039 --> 01:36:04.619
locally here that have always had problems because

01:36:04.619 --> 01:36:07.100
they've never changed many things and they've

01:36:07.100 --> 01:36:09.100
relied on mandatory overtime for two decades

01:36:09.100 --> 01:36:11.720
now. But arguably, most of the country, it was

01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:13.720
about a decade ago that we started seeing this

01:36:13.720 --> 01:36:17.770
decline. So we're not... And saying, oh, imagine

01:36:17.770 --> 01:36:19.989
a fire service where people wanted to work for

01:36:19.989 --> 01:36:22.449
us. We were there. You know, your generation

01:36:22.449 --> 01:36:24.529
was even more competitive than my generation

01:36:24.529 --> 01:36:29.270
when I was testing post 9 -11. So it's just simply

01:36:29.270 --> 01:36:32.229
returning to where we were before. And you guys

01:36:32.229 --> 01:36:34.489
became the first in Texas. I had someone comment

01:36:34.489 --> 01:36:36.310
saying that you weren't, that there was this

01:36:36.310 --> 01:36:40.069
other city. They said we were the first in Texas.

01:36:40.250 --> 01:36:43.829
But then we gave up the 24 -72 to have four -man

01:36:43.829 --> 01:36:47.380
staffing. And that breaks my heart. You made

01:36:47.380 --> 01:36:50.140
it worse for your people to have an extra person

01:36:50.140 --> 01:36:52.020
on the rig rather than saying, well, the extra

01:36:52.020 --> 01:36:54.659
person on the rig should be a requirement for

01:36:54.659 --> 01:36:57.500
the service of our citizens. But that shouldn't

01:36:57.500 --> 01:36:59.880
come at the expense of our men and women and

01:36:59.880 --> 01:37:03.100
their families. That's insane. So as we sit here

01:37:03.100 --> 01:37:05.460
now in 2025, you guys became the first one that

01:37:05.460 --> 01:37:07.479
I know of in Texas, which I think is incredible.

01:37:08.159 --> 01:37:10.600
But I hope that you become a beacon of light,

01:37:10.699 --> 01:37:14.180
not a source of envy or competition. But as you've

01:37:14.180 --> 01:37:17.260
done in this last hour and a half so far, a blueprint

01:37:17.260 --> 01:37:20.140
for how other people can go. Some are going to

01:37:20.140 --> 01:37:22.600
be super sought after, well -staffed departments.

01:37:22.960 --> 01:37:25.060
Others are going to be the majority, which is

01:37:25.060 --> 01:37:28.840
woefully understaffed. But if we create an environment

01:37:28.840 --> 01:37:32.119
that causes high performance and high levels

01:37:32.119 --> 01:37:35.539
of physical, mental health and longevity, the

01:37:35.539 --> 01:37:38.439
young people that are turning away at the moment

01:37:38.439 --> 01:37:40.920
are going to circle back and go, you know what?

01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:43.500
That does sound like an amazing profession. Just

01:37:43.500 --> 01:37:46.260
the way that you guys are working 56 hours, 80

01:37:46.260 --> 01:37:48.819
hours of overtime. One of my Anaheim friends

01:37:48.819 --> 01:37:51.079
just messaged me that day. He's on day five,

01:37:51.079 --> 01:37:54.840
five days straight. Insane, absolutely insane

01:37:54.840 --> 01:37:57.399
for health, for performance, everything. So when

01:37:57.399 --> 01:38:01.199
we fix what's broken, we will attract these young

01:38:01.199 --> 01:38:03.039
people back again. The same as when you were

01:38:03.039 --> 01:38:05.239
testing, the same as when I was testing, because

01:38:05.239 --> 01:38:07.899
that is the history of the fire service. But

01:38:07.899 --> 01:38:10.600
you can't break people and expect us to just

01:38:10.600 --> 01:38:13.539
keep lining up and showing up again. The Internet

01:38:13.539 --> 01:38:16.260
is the source of information now. And these young

01:38:16.260 --> 01:38:19.760
people are understanding that this is not the

01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:21.659
best profession as far as the way that we're

01:38:21.659 --> 01:38:24.300
worked. And it will come at the expense of their

01:38:24.300 --> 01:38:26.300
relationships, of their physical health, the

01:38:26.300 --> 01:38:29.140
potential addictions, et cetera, et cetera. When

01:38:29.140 --> 01:38:31.699
we fix that, I guarantee you, we'll probably

01:38:31.699 --> 01:38:34.819
see an incredible uptick in recruitment for the

01:38:34.819 --> 01:38:38.069
entire country. So I hope that departments like

01:38:38.069 --> 01:38:42.489
yours are seen as a source of intrigue that people

01:38:42.489 --> 01:38:45.710
will humble their egos and say, how did you do

01:38:45.710 --> 01:38:47.729
it? Can you tell us? We'll try and figure out

01:38:47.729 --> 01:38:50.350
how we can make this apply to ours. And then

01:38:50.350 --> 01:38:52.649
soon the state of Texas will see the kind of

01:38:52.649 --> 01:38:54.489
tidal wave that we're seeing here in Florida.

01:38:55.850 --> 01:38:59.210
And I applaud you guys, like I said. And I do

01:38:59.210 --> 01:39:02.130
think it will happen because we are a copycat

01:39:02.130 --> 01:39:06.390
industry. And I love that. I use that a lot about

01:39:06.390 --> 01:39:09.890
rising tide raises all ships. But you think about

01:39:09.890 --> 01:39:11.689
it, there's a tragedy that happens in the fire

01:39:11.689 --> 01:39:15.270
service somewhere else in the country. And we

01:39:15.270 --> 01:39:17.050
don't think anything about putting a contingent

01:39:17.050 --> 01:39:18.890
of people on an airplane with their dress blues

01:39:18.890 --> 01:39:21.329
to go attend the service for people we've never

01:39:21.329 --> 01:39:24.670
met and we don't know. So why the heck would

01:39:24.670 --> 01:39:28.149
we not share what we know? Let's give them their

01:39:28.149 --> 01:39:31.750
flowers before they pass away. If we have an

01:39:31.750 --> 01:39:33.550
opportunity to help people, I mean, that's what

01:39:33.550 --> 01:39:36.159
it's all about. I've shared the contract with

01:39:36.159 --> 01:39:38.859
several of my brethren here in the Metroplex

01:39:38.859 --> 01:39:41.659
that have reached out and wanted to see it and

01:39:41.659 --> 01:39:43.640
talk about how we're going to get there. And

01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:49.699
I'll be candid. We want everybody to be honored

01:39:49.699 --> 01:39:52.140
eventually. There's no question about that. But

01:39:52.140 --> 01:39:54.460
there is a source of pride about being the leaders

01:39:54.460 --> 01:39:57.939
and stepping out and saying, you know, once again,

01:39:58.079 --> 01:40:00.699
this is what we're known for doing is being the

01:40:00.699 --> 01:40:04.869
leaders and trying to make things better. And,

01:40:04.869 --> 01:40:07.609
you know, we did something two years ago. And

01:40:07.609 --> 01:40:11.050
again, it goes back to the city's mentality.

01:40:11.229 --> 01:40:13.829
But my boss, I keep coming back to him because

01:40:13.829 --> 01:40:16.050
let's just be people don't know how the real

01:40:16.050 --> 01:40:18.550
world works. If it doesn't get out of the city

01:40:18.550 --> 01:40:20.149
manager's office, it's not going to get out.

01:40:21.090 --> 01:40:23.630
That's where the buck stops. And he or she decides

01:40:23.630 --> 01:40:26.810
what what filters out to the council. And granted,

01:40:26.869 --> 01:40:28.970
you have associations and you have bad back doors

01:40:28.970 --> 01:40:30.510
and you have other ways in which you can work

01:40:30.510 --> 01:40:33.819
it. And again. You're never going to hear anything

01:40:33.819 --> 01:40:36.760
negative. In full disclosure, I was the PAC president

01:40:36.760 --> 01:40:39.760
for local 440 in Fort Worth for several years,

01:40:39.920 --> 01:40:42.079
and that was my job, was to make sure the message

01:40:42.079 --> 01:40:44.300
got to the council that was being filtered out

01:40:44.300 --> 01:40:48.760
of the city manager's office. But we did something

01:40:48.760 --> 01:40:50.859
revolutionary that I had not heard of another

01:40:50.859 --> 01:40:53.779
department doing. We bought several new fire

01:40:53.779 --> 01:40:58.279
engines, and we leased them, and they're reserves.

01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:03.399
We just bought straight off the line. uh trucks

01:41:03.399 --> 01:41:07.560
uh that just came uh like the stock i call it

01:41:07.560 --> 01:41:10.319
the chevy impalas but we bought chevy impalas

01:41:10.319 --> 01:41:12.539
off the line and said these are going to go into

01:41:12.539 --> 01:41:15.140
the reserve pool because what happens how many

01:41:15.140 --> 01:41:16.819
times in your career have you went and got on

01:41:16.819 --> 01:41:20.199
an old dog that's a reserve for a reason and

01:41:20.199 --> 01:41:22.520
then it breaks down and now you're having to

01:41:22.520 --> 01:41:25.220
get on another truck and so we said let's reverse

01:41:25.220 --> 01:41:27.539
the paradigm let's buy brand spanking new trucks

01:41:27.539 --> 01:41:29.619
they won't be the cadillac models that we spec

01:41:29.619 --> 01:41:32.729
for for normal But they'll be bulletproof, you

01:41:32.729 --> 01:41:35.989
know, dependable. And so far, everybody has absolutely

01:41:35.989 --> 01:41:39.229
loved them. But that's just that flipping that

01:41:39.229 --> 01:41:41.270
paradigm and saying instead of pumping money

01:41:41.270 --> 01:41:44.229
into an old thing that's dying and there's a

01:41:44.229 --> 01:41:46.310
reason it got taken out of service to begin with,

01:41:46.409 --> 01:41:49.289
let's buy something that's dependable. But, yeah,

01:41:49.350 --> 01:41:51.989
it's not the Mercedes -Benz, but it's a dependable

01:41:51.989 --> 01:41:54.229
Chevy. It's going to get you there. And let that

01:41:54.229 --> 01:41:58.229
be your reserve apparatus. And so those are the

01:41:58.229 --> 01:41:59.909
kind of things that we do that we're hoping.

01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:03.199
It catches on, but we take pride in saying we're

01:42:03.199 --> 01:42:05.220
the first ones to jump out there and do it. And

01:42:05.220 --> 01:42:08.199
so, yeah, my expectation and my hope is, is that

01:42:08.199 --> 01:42:11.399
by the time we have finished implementing 2472

01:42:11.399 --> 01:42:15.939
here in Plano, that most of the Metroplex departments

01:42:15.939 --> 01:42:17.899
have figured out a way and they're on a glide

01:42:17.899 --> 01:42:20.520
path to do the same thing and are in the process

01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:23.960
of doing it, you know, and it becomes a priority.

01:42:24.060 --> 01:42:29.510
But I'm just going to be somewhat. brusque in

01:42:29.510 --> 01:42:32.890
my comments but i will tell you that there's

01:42:32.890 --> 01:42:35.670
a belief out there amongst some folks that are

01:42:35.670 --> 01:42:38.170
in leadership positions that it's like well it's

01:42:38.170 --> 01:42:40.130
just as like mcdonald's we'll just find another

01:42:40.130 --> 01:42:44.789
teenager to take the job and uh they're they're

01:42:44.789 --> 01:42:48.890
not looking at it like no this is these people

01:42:48.890 --> 01:42:51.189
are commodities they're they're people that are

01:42:51.189 --> 01:42:54.510
on your worst day is when you're going to meet

01:42:54.510 --> 01:42:56.789
them and and that's why i always used to tell

01:42:56.789 --> 01:43:00.689
the guys about and and why I was so proud of

01:43:00.689 --> 01:43:03.630
them for the way they treat the community, every

01:43:03.630 --> 01:43:07.210
interaction, every time. And most of their interactions

01:43:07.210 --> 01:43:10.050
just come, someone's changing a tire for someone

01:43:10.050 --> 01:43:13.189
on the side of the road. They're just doing these

01:43:13.189 --> 01:43:16.529
nice deeds all the time because they get that

01:43:16.529 --> 01:43:20.390
majority of our citizenry will never meet them.

01:43:20.789 --> 01:43:23.609
They may meet them, all right, but they're unconscious

01:43:23.609 --> 01:43:27.420
when they meet them. So every chance you get

01:43:27.420 --> 01:43:30.520
to impact the public in a positive way, our guys

01:43:30.520 --> 01:43:33.640
have got a history of doing that. No chief has

01:43:33.640 --> 01:43:36.039
to browbeat that into them. It's ingrained in

01:43:36.039 --> 01:43:38.680
them and they hold each other accountable. I

01:43:38.680 --> 01:43:42.539
used to say the secret sauce for being a successful

01:43:42.539 --> 01:43:44.899
chief in Plano, Texas wasn't my white shirts.

01:43:45.180 --> 01:43:47.560
It was my station officers because no one's there

01:43:47.560 --> 01:43:48.960
at two in the morning to see if they're doing

01:43:48.960 --> 01:43:51.180
what they're supposed to be doing or not. But

01:43:51.180 --> 01:43:53.960
the feedback was clear to me that they were doing

01:43:53.960 --> 01:43:56.409
what they were supposed to do. They're the backbone

01:43:56.409 --> 01:43:58.430
of the department because they hold that high

01:43:58.430 --> 01:44:01.029
standard amongst themselves and their crews.

01:44:01.810 --> 01:44:06.109
And again, I think that collaborative mentality

01:44:06.109 --> 01:44:08.890
of they know why we're here. We know why they're

01:44:08.890 --> 01:44:12.310
here. We try to support them. When we hit that

01:44:12.310 --> 01:44:16.590
rough spot in the road over 4896, it was a rough

01:44:16.590 --> 01:44:18.470
spot in the road. It's like a marriage, but it

01:44:18.470 --> 01:44:20.710
was never going to be, well, I hate you or, you

01:44:20.710 --> 01:44:23.779
know, we're going to work through it. were the

01:44:23.779 --> 01:44:26.880
ones that reached out and said, I posted on my

01:44:26.880 --> 01:44:30.039
Facebook shortly after the council told the association

01:44:30.039 --> 01:44:34.960
no to 4896, essentially. I posted something to

01:44:34.960 --> 01:44:37.159
the effect of, you know, I did because they kept

01:44:37.159 --> 01:44:39.180
telling me to follow the science is what a lot

01:44:39.180 --> 01:44:40.819
of the guys were telling me. And I was getting

01:44:40.819 --> 01:44:42.760
hate mail from departments all over the nation

01:44:42.760 --> 01:44:48.920
because I was the barrier to 4896. But what I

01:44:48.920 --> 01:44:53.829
will say is that at the end of the day, Going

01:44:53.829 --> 01:44:58.489
to that table and being able to have that conversation

01:44:58.489 --> 01:45:01.130
was rooted in the fact that we've always been

01:45:01.130 --> 01:45:03.310
able to get along with one another. And you don't

01:45:03.310 --> 01:45:07.390
let one event overshadow the next. Don't try

01:45:07.390 --> 01:45:10.090
to get even. You're not keeping score. It's about

01:45:10.090 --> 01:45:12.989
just how we're going to move the ball. And we

01:45:12.989 --> 01:45:14.930
were able to come together and have that conversation.

01:45:15.529 --> 01:45:18.789
And there was enough trust. that we would get

01:45:18.789 --> 01:45:22.970
there. And like I said, the association, I applaud

01:45:22.970 --> 01:45:28.069
them because they came to the table. They were

01:45:28.069 --> 01:45:31.850
willing to listen. They understood the assignment.

01:45:32.250 --> 01:45:34.949
And then they went out and them and the leadership,

01:45:35.130 --> 01:45:37.850
the fire chief and Jaime and Jeff, the two assistant

01:45:37.850 --> 01:45:40.210
chiefs, they worked their tails off visiting

01:45:40.210 --> 01:45:43.069
the stations, answering people's questions, explaining

01:45:43.069 --> 01:45:45.789
how it would work, how the format would work.

01:45:46.750 --> 01:45:49.090
Me and Mark Isrelson didn't figure out the formula.

01:45:49.170 --> 01:45:51.989
We figured out the math. What can you afford

01:45:51.989 --> 01:45:55.869
to do over the next several years? But then how

01:45:55.869 --> 01:45:58.789
to implement it and how to make all that stuff

01:45:58.789 --> 01:46:01.890
work, that's all the folks down the street that

01:46:01.890 --> 01:46:05.270
have done all that. I mean, I have mementos in

01:46:05.270 --> 01:46:07.590
my office, but that white chief's helmet right

01:46:07.590 --> 01:46:10.630
there is just that. It's history. I'm not the

01:46:10.630 --> 01:46:13.909
chief. I don't play one on TV anymore. I've said

01:46:13.909 --> 01:46:15.869
in my heart I'm always going to be a firefighter.

01:46:16.520 --> 01:46:21.020
But I don't in any way try to tell them how to

01:46:21.020 --> 01:46:23.180
run their railroad. The only thing I ever was

01:46:23.180 --> 01:46:26.760
like no one that I can't support was 4896. And

01:46:26.760 --> 01:46:30.020
again, it was never, ever about not wanting to

01:46:30.020 --> 01:46:31.579
give the guys something that they were wanting

01:46:31.579 --> 01:46:34.159
or what they felt was a better quality of life.

01:46:34.220 --> 01:46:36.899
It was about their safety and the safety of the

01:46:36.899 --> 01:46:39.840
people that I serve because I'm going to be out

01:46:39.840 --> 01:46:43.220
of service here in a few months. But I've never.

01:46:43.920 --> 01:46:46.739
It sounds corny, but I always took my charge

01:46:46.739 --> 01:46:49.699
of serving the citizens seriously. I believe

01:46:49.699 --> 01:46:52.279
in what the young me who raised my right hand

01:46:52.279 --> 01:46:55.159
and took an oath said all those years ago. And

01:46:55.159 --> 01:46:58.000
I think it's imperative that we take care of

01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:01.520
our people, both the public and our employees.

01:47:01.760 --> 01:47:05.119
And I think this is just another example, like

01:47:05.119 --> 01:47:08.579
I said, of this right here instead of this. You'll

01:47:08.579 --> 01:47:12.380
get so much more done when you do this. And city

01:47:12.380 --> 01:47:16.340
managers, Like I said, I get I'm an albatross.

01:47:16.880 --> 01:47:20.300
My boss jokes all the time. I'm like the bull

01:47:20.300 --> 01:47:23.039
in the china closet amongst my peers even because

01:47:23.039 --> 01:47:25.819
I come into it from a completely different lens.

01:47:26.039 --> 01:47:27.840
I didn't come up wearing a shirt and tie like

01:47:27.840 --> 01:47:32.140
this. I did not come up in an arena like that

01:47:32.140 --> 01:47:35.220
I'm in today. I have a master's in public administration,

01:47:35.420 --> 01:47:37.539
but I promise you I didn't earn that to get into

01:47:37.539 --> 01:47:40.460
this chair. I knew I was going to be a fire chief

01:47:40.460 --> 01:47:42.439
someday, and I wanted to be able to. speak the

01:47:42.439 --> 01:47:45.239
lingo of what city managers and how they thought

01:47:45.239 --> 01:47:47.659
so that I could get a bigger chunk of pie for

01:47:47.659 --> 01:47:50.699
the fire department in full disclosure. It was

01:47:50.699 --> 01:47:53.960
never about coming into this arena, but it's

01:47:53.960 --> 01:47:57.020
been very rewarding. I'm glad that I got to play

01:47:57.020 --> 01:48:01.699
a small part in bringing this to fruition, and

01:48:01.699 --> 01:48:04.380
I'm going to enjoy sitting on the sidelines as

01:48:04.380 --> 01:48:08.060
a citizen of Plano and watching these guys get

01:48:08.060 --> 01:48:11.720
this schedule. I know it'll be successful. I

01:48:11.720 --> 01:48:13.659
know that the chief and the team down there,

01:48:13.819 --> 01:48:20.520
he's got two assistants. You've talked to Jaime.

01:48:21.119 --> 01:48:23.300
When I tell you those guys could be starting

01:48:23.300 --> 01:48:25.939
quarterbacks for any team in the league that

01:48:25.939 --> 01:48:30.220
quick, they're awesome. He's got a super, super

01:48:30.220 --> 01:48:32.979
good group around him. The union's professional.

01:48:34.380 --> 01:48:36.699
A lot of what we were able to accomplish through

01:48:36.699 --> 01:48:40.090
the years is because of the associations. relationship

01:48:40.090 --> 01:48:43.090
with council and being able to make sure that

01:48:43.090 --> 01:48:46.390
that uh you know when we needed big ticket items

01:48:46.390 --> 01:48:49.909
that the wine and and the yeah you know there

01:48:49.909 --> 01:48:52.550
was never uh it was never more about what we

01:48:52.550 --> 01:48:54.810
need five percent instead of three percent and

01:48:54.810 --> 01:48:56.130
we're willing to give up building a training

01:48:56.130 --> 01:48:58.789
center to get that that was never the guys have

01:48:58.789 --> 01:49:01.130
always put a value on the equipment the training

01:49:01.130 --> 01:49:04.710
they get it and they're going to be ambassadors

01:49:04.710 --> 01:49:09.119
for 24 72 i truly believe they will And like

01:49:09.119 --> 01:49:11.439
I said, I'm just, my prayer is that other departments

01:49:11.439 --> 01:49:14.659
will catch on and that we'll, I'm wanting Texas

01:49:14.659 --> 01:49:17.460
to be the next Florida where it just starts,

01:49:17.579 --> 01:49:21.600
you know, domino effect. And throughout our country,

01:49:21.720 --> 01:49:24.020
because I'm telling you, our West Coast brothers,

01:49:24.180 --> 01:49:25.659
and I know you know this, James, because you've

01:49:25.659 --> 01:49:27.420
been doing this a lot longer than I have. And

01:49:27.420 --> 01:49:31.539
this is your passion, studying this. But those

01:49:31.539 --> 01:49:34.420
guys on the West Coast, man. They're getting

01:49:34.420 --> 01:49:36.640
beat to death out there. I mean, those are busy,

01:49:36.760 --> 01:49:40.479
busy departments. And my guys, you know, and

01:49:40.479 --> 01:49:43.199
people that are proponents of 4896 will use that

01:49:43.199 --> 01:49:45.739
as the excuse of why we should go to it. Well,

01:49:45.739 --> 01:49:47.899
they're busier than we are. Well, that's not

01:49:47.899 --> 01:49:53.739
a reason to do it. You know, I get it. You know,

01:49:53.760 --> 01:49:55.880
they don't want to drive. We all tend to. I lived

01:49:55.880 --> 01:49:58.460
an hour out of the city the whole time I worked

01:49:58.460 --> 01:50:01.039
in Fort Worth for the most part. So I had that

01:50:01.039 --> 01:50:04.630
two -hour windshield time a day. So I get why

01:50:04.630 --> 01:50:07.250
people, they don't want to have to come to work

01:50:07.250 --> 01:50:10.130
as many days, but you got to think about what's

01:50:10.130 --> 01:50:12.210
going to happen when you get there and what your

01:50:12.210 --> 01:50:14.229
body's going to go through. And again, I'm preaching

01:50:14.229 --> 01:50:18.909
to the choir, but you're 20, 24, 25 years. How

01:50:18.909 --> 01:50:21.649
many years are you into the service now? Well,

01:50:21.689 --> 01:50:27.109
I started in 2004. my first job, Hialeah. But

01:50:27.109 --> 01:50:29.289
then I transitioned out seven years ago. So,

01:50:29.350 --> 01:50:31.850
but I mean, I arguably am still in the service,

01:50:31.850 --> 01:50:33.890
just not getting paid because I'm trying to fight

01:50:33.890 --> 01:50:38.489
for it now for free. Oh, I did not realize that.

01:50:38.550 --> 01:50:41.489
So you're not active duty anymore. No, I came

01:50:41.489 --> 01:50:45.329
at a crossroads after rehabbing, meniscus surgery,

01:50:45.470 --> 01:50:48.390
getting back to full duty. a lot of organizational

01:50:48.390 --> 01:50:52.029
toxicity in that particular place and realized

01:50:52.029 --> 01:50:54.550
at that moment that I was having more of an impact

01:50:54.550 --> 01:50:57.350
with the podcast than simply running one call

01:50:57.350 --> 01:51:00.609
at a time. So kind of took a leap of faith, cashed

01:51:00.609 --> 01:51:03.510
out my pension, gave myself a salary for a year

01:51:03.510 --> 01:51:05.810
and a half and did this full time. So that was

01:51:05.810 --> 01:51:09.390
seven years ago now. Well, God bless you because

01:51:09.390 --> 01:51:11.050
what you're doing is making a difference. Like

01:51:11.050 --> 01:51:14.789
I said, it's educating people, myself included.

01:51:16.460 --> 01:51:19.000
Like I said, this is something that, you know,

01:51:19.020 --> 01:51:22.220
Jaime, from what I understand on the back end,

01:51:22.319 --> 01:51:24.979
has been a big proponent of this all along. But

01:51:24.979 --> 01:51:27.380
it wasn't coming to us. No one was coming to

01:51:27.380 --> 01:51:30.819
us saying we need 2472. It was all about 4896.

01:51:31.220 --> 01:51:36.159
And so that conversation, though, has led us

01:51:36.159 --> 01:51:38.359
to where we are today. So that's why, again,

01:51:38.760 --> 01:51:40.840
I try to always find the bright spots and stuff.

01:51:41.479 --> 01:51:44.180
And rather than get upset about what went on

01:51:44.180 --> 01:51:48.079
during that. you know a disagreement over 4896

01:51:48.079 --> 01:51:51.220
and which path we should go the silver lining

01:51:51.220 --> 01:51:54.260
is is that create that kicked off the education

01:51:54.260 --> 01:51:58.020
for me for for my boss mark israelson for the

01:51:58.020 --> 01:52:01.520
council uh mayor muns everybody started learning

01:52:01.520 --> 01:52:03.399
more because we were sharing that information

01:52:03.399 --> 01:52:06.760
and so yes it is unusual for us to be the one

01:52:06.760 --> 01:52:09.079
that reach out and go hey why why didn't y 'all

01:52:09.079 --> 01:52:10.819
bring this to us and they were honest they were

01:52:10.819 --> 01:52:12.380
like well we just assumed that there was no way

01:52:12.380 --> 01:52:14.779
that financially was feasible it's like well

01:52:15.720 --> 01:52:17.939
it is, we got to figure out how to get there,

01:52:18.000 --> 01:52:21.159
but we can do this. And so, uh, I think it's

01:52:21.159 --> 01:52:24.619
imperative that you have that type of, of willingness

01:52:24.619 --> 01:52:28.579
to just come together, uh, shared goal. Uh, and

01:52:28.579 --> 01:52:31.380
if, if you start with the, what do we have in

01:52:31.380 --> 01:52:33.420
common and how can we get there? Then, then it's

01:52:33.420 --> 01:52:35.760
very doable, but buddy, I could talk to you all

01:52:35.760 --> 01:52:37.460
day, but I got another appointment that I've

01:52:37.460 --> 01:52:39.819
got to butt up against. So, uh, is there anything

01:52:39.819 --> 01:52:43.170
that you wanted to ask before we, uh, say our

01:52:43.170 --> 01:52:45.329
goodbyes? I'm going to put something in very

01:52:45.329 --> 01:52:48.770
quickly. So the studies, the science of the 4896

01:52:48.770 --> 01:52:53.250
is a fallacy. Firstly, the question is why was,

01:52:53.369 --> 01:52:55.449
as you mentioned, the whole Northeast works 42

01:52:55.449 --> 01:52:57.909
hours a week. Why was there never a study comparing

01:52:57.909 --> 01:53:01.130
that to the 56 hour work week? Secondly, the

01:53:01.130 --> 01:53:02.750
study that was done, and I'm not poo -pooing

01:53:02.750 --> 01:53:05.550
the study, but the way it was interpreted, they

01:53:05.550 --> 01:53:07.550
studied a fire department, Joel Billings, this

01:53:07.550 --> 01:53:11.739
was, that run less than one call a night. So

01:53:11.739 --> 01:53:14.979
firstly, it's not actually mirroring most departments.

01:53:15.159 --> 01:53:17.680
Secondly, the takeaway was that second shift

01:53:17.680 --> 01:53:19.899
when you've slept all night, you woke up in a

01:53:19.899 --> 01:53:22.779
fire station. So you didn't have the sleep deprivation

01:53:22.779 --> 01:53:25.739
of starting at 630 in the morning. So what does

01:53:25.739 --> 01:53:27.920
that really show? The changing the start time

01:53:27.920 --> 01:53:29.760
is the real science in that in the first place.

01:53:30.319 --> 01:53:32.300
Secondly, just to add this as well, you're talking

01:53:32.300 --> 01:53:34.840
about being in the church and handing the flags.

01:53:35.800 --> 01:53:38.100
When you don't know any better than you think

01:53:38.100 --> 01:53:39.800
that you're doing the right thing, you know,

01:53:39.819 --> 01:53:41.979
you're given a buy on this. But if you are now

01:53:41.979 --> 01:53:46.300
aware of the chronic overwork and all the diseases

01:53:46.300 --> 01:53:48.479
and mental health problems that that's causing

01:53:48.479 --> 01:53:51.199
and accidents, you know, driving home, all these

01:53:51.199 --> 01:53:54.239
things, and you still continue to do it the way

01:53:54.239 --> 01:53:55.960
you do it. And then you have the audacity to

01:53:55.960 --> 01:53:58.319
speak at the funerals as well. That's where I

01:53:58.319 --> 01:54:01.039
say shame on you. Once you have this knowledge

01:54:01.039 --> 01:54:03.119
and you understand that this is a solution that

01:54:03.119 --> 01:54:06.189
must be addressed. you have to become part of

01:54:06.189 --> 01:54:08.270
the problem. And that sounds harsh, but it's

01:54:08.270 --> 01:54:10.310
true. If you just keep going to the funerals

01:54:10.310 --> 01:54:12.470
and refuse to actually be part of the solution,

01:54:12.630 --> 01:54:15.289
which sadly has happened, you know, the place

01:54:15.289 --> 01:54:17.670
where I live, the firefighters that protect me,

01:54:17.810 --> 01:54:21.010
that's where I'm disgusted at the lack of courage.

01:54:21.189 --> 01:54:23.850
This requires courage. If you're a city manager,

01:54:24.050 --> 01:54:27.329
union president, a chief, or simply just someone

01:54:27.329 --> 01:54:29.970
in the station, and you're pushing against a

01:54:29.970 --> 01:54:31.970
healthier work week that puts you home with your

01:54:31.970 --> 01:54:35.380
family more frequently, It's, you know, that

01:54:35.380 --> 01:54:38.380
now you're really just adding fertilizer to the

01:54:38.380 --> 01:54:41.300
problem. So this is where it's an all call for

01:54:41.300 --> 01:54:44.659
courage, for humility. If we truly want to make

01:54:44.659 --> 01:54:46.699
a difference in all the different ways that we

01:54:46.699 --> 01:54:49.460
lose firefighters, that we lose their family

01:54:49.460 --> 01:54:52.060
members, we have to put this front and center.

01:54:52.979 --> 01:54:57.060
What I said earlier is sometimes you just have

01:54:57.060 --> 01:54:59.520
an aha moment. It's like an epiphany as you get

01:54:59.520 --> 01:55:03.510
educated and you learn about stuff. Another fallacy,

01:55:03.529 --> 01:55:05.810
in my opinion, has been I'm not saying that,

01:55:05.829 --> 01:55:08.369
yes, we have more plastics than we used to have.

01:55:08.470 --> 01:55:11.510
I get that. But it's not like it just got invented

01:55:11.510 --> 01:55:15.029
yesterday. And so lightweight construction, all

01:55:15.029 --> 01:55:17.409
the things that are killing us. But the reality

01:55:17.409 --> 01:55:20.590
is we have less fires than we used to have. You

01:55:20.590 --> 01:55:22.670
know, we just don't have them like we did before.

01:55:22.890 --> 01:55:25.970
Our building codes have gotten better. You know,

01:55:25.989 --> 01:55:27.989
you don't see two and three story apartments

01:55:27.989 --> 01:55:30.270
in Plano that aren't sprinkler. All of our stuff

01:55:30.270 --> 01:55:34.850
is sprinkler. So, but yet our heart attacks aren't

01:55:34.850 --> 01:55:36.989
going down. Our cancer rates aren't going down.

01:55:37.029 --> 01:55:39.289
And you're thinking, how is it that I'm having

01:55:39.289 --> 01:55:42.569
less exposure, but yet, and that's why I said

01:55:42.569 --> 01:55:44.649
it's the aha moment is when you start really

01:55:44.649 --> 01:55:48.970
reading the studies and you go, well, hell, sleep

01:55:48.970 --> 01:55:52.010
deprivation causes cancer? Who knew? I mean,

01:55:53.090 --> 01:55:55.529
obviously doctors and stuff knew, but I didn't

01:55:55.529 --> 01:55:58.250
realize until I really started doing the research.

01:55:58.310 --> 01:56:01.439
And again, What drove my decision? You know,

01:56:01.460 --> 01:56:04.319
why was I so against it? Because I did the job.

01:56:04.479 --> 01:56:07.460
Because I know better. I know what my body was

01:56:07.460 --> 01:56:10.920
like after I got off a 24 -hour shift. And I

01:56:10.920 --> 01:56:14.520
could handle the 24. But a 48 at my station,

01:56:14.699 --> 01:56:19.319
you know, yes, we have some stations. And full

01:56:19.319 --> 01:56:21.479
disclosure, and most cities do, including even

01:56:21.479 --> 01:56:24.479
Big Fort Worth, that, yeah, after two days, you'd

01:56:24.479 --> 01:56:26.279
have to go wake the guys up and tell them, hey,

01:56:26.300 --> 01:56:28.180
you don't have to go home, but you can't stay

01:56:28.180 --> 01:56:32.199
here, you know. But that's – they're the exception.

01:56:32.880 --> 01:56:36.939
The guys that are constantly – and this fallacy

01:56:36.939 --> 01:56:39.840
of, well, the guys will self -manage, I call

01:56:39.840 --> 01:56:42.760
BS on that. No, they won't. They will not. They

01:56:42.760 --> 01:56:46.319
will not say, Station 13, you had a hell of a

01:56:46.319 --> 01:56:48.739
bad day. I looked at your call volume. You guys

01:56:48.739 --> 01:56:50.880
were up three times after midnight last night.

01:56:51.239 --> 01:56:53.760
Pack all your stuff. You're going to Station

01:56:53.760 --> 01:56:57.659
1. and call station one's crew who didn't turn

01:56:57.659 --> 01:57:00.640
a wheel and tell them you're going to 13th. We

01:57:00.640 --> 01:57:02.819
both know what that looks like in the real world.

01:57:02.960 --> 01:57:06.000
And that's where I guess I would get my feathers

01:57:06.000 --> 01:57:08.000
ruffled is when the guys would act like, well,

01:57:08.020 --> 01:57:09.640
you don't know what you're talking about. You

01:57:09.640 --> 01:57:11.720
don't know what it's like. It's like, come on.

01:57:12.520 --> 01:57:15.260
I was not, again, I was born on a fire truck,

01:57:15.340 --> 01:57:18.060
not in an office. And so, and I didn't work at

01:57:18.060 --> 01:57:22.199
a slow station. I mean, my record is my record

01:57:22.199 --> 01:57:24.659
and anybody can see where I work. I was Battalion

01:57:24.659 --> 01:57:27.220
4. If I was in operations, I was in Battalion

01:57:27.220 --> 01:57:30.199
4 in Fort Worth, which that's a very busy battalion,

01:57:30.239 --> 01:57:32.140
and I was at two of the hottest stations you

01:57:32.140 --> 01:57:36.600
can be at. So it's nonsense to think that, like

01:57:36.600 --> 01:57:39.560
I said, you have to get past the rhetoric. Don't

01:57:39.560 --> 01:57:41.300
get your feelings hurt because people disagree

01:57:41.300 --> 01:57:44.220
with you. But you've got to just keep bringing

01:57:44.220 --> 01:57:51.180
them back. And I feel fairly confident that today,

01:57:51.279 --> 01:57:54.340
as we've said here, the majority of plano fire

01:57:54.340 --> 01:57:59.680
rescue now hopefully realizes that uh my my entire

01:57:59.680 --> 01:58:03.699
belief and why and i used to tell them i get

01:58:03.699 --> 01:58:06.800
it why y 'all want it but there's nothing in

01:58:06.800 --> 01:58:09.579
it for mrs smith she's not getting what she's

01:58:09.579 --> 01:58:12.159
paying for i get you guys only want to drive

01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:14.819
in from two and a half hours away five times

01:58:14.819 --> 01:58:16.939
a month instead of ten times a month i understand

01:58:16.939 --> 01:58:19.890
that but The people that pay our salary, there's

01:58:19.890 --> 01:58:21.550
nothing in this from them. They're not going

01:58:21.550 --> 01:58:23.930
to get a fresh EMT paramedic firefighter. They're

01:58:23.930 --> 01:58:26.109
not going to get the best product. And you're

01:58:26.109 --> 01:58:27.829
not going to have the best long -term health.

01:58:27.949 --> 01:58:31.189
And just as I tried to explain to them is when

01:58:31.189 --> 01:58:34.789
I was at BC and my job was to say, everybody

01:58:34.789 --> 01:58:38.649
out, we're going defensive. That was my job to

01:58:38.649 --> 01:58:40.750
keep them protected from themselves because they're

01:58:40.750 --> 01:58:43.569
hard charging. And that's what we really want.

01:58:43.649 --> 01:58:45.890
We want firefighters that are going to run into

01:58:45.890 --> 01:58:48.100
danger. But someone's got to be the designated

01:58:48.100 --> 01:58:50.319
adult to go, you've had enough, it's time to

01:58:50.319 --> 01:58:53.020
come out. Or, you know, that war horse that tries

01:58:53.020 --> 01:58:54.939
to put the third bottle on and you're like, uh

01:58:54.939 --> 01:58:56.880
-uh, you're in timeout. You're not putting a

01:58:56.880 --> 01:59:00.039
third bottle on your back. You're done. And,

01:59:00.220 --> 01:59:03.979
you know, you have to be that person that says

01:59:03.979 --> 01:59:06.680
this is the right thing and take care of your

01:59:06.680 --> 01:59:10.960
people. And I'm hoping that now that we've got

01:59:10.960 --> 01:59:14.319
this all behind us, you know, that there's a

01:59:14.319 --> 01:59:16.840
lot of goodwill in the air. I'm hoping that the

01:59:16.840 --> 01:59:19.920
folks that were so passionate about 4896, I'm

01:59:19.920 --> 01:59:22.239
hoping that they look at this as it's an unanswered

01:59:22.239 --> 01:59:26.239
prayer that we didn't go to it. Because, yeah,

01:59:26.380 --> 01:59:30.039
I'm sure had I not been, if I'd have told my

01:59:30.039 --> 01:59:33.000
boss, boss, I think this is worth a trial. We

01:59:33.000 --> 01:59:34.920
did have some council members at the time. We've

01:59:34.920 --> 01:59:36.840
had an election since then, but we had some council

01:59:36.840 --> 01:59:41.039
members that were in favor of a trial. And it

01:59:41.039 --> 01:59:42.779
wouldn't have been a trial. We know what that's

01:59:42.779 --> 01:59:45.279
like. You don't claw it back. But they've been

01:59:45.279 --> 01:59:46.680
like, OK, well, now we're doing what everybody

01:59:46.680 --> 01:59:49.100
else in the Metroplex is doing. We're on 4896.

01:59:49.520 --> 01:59:51.560
Everybody's happy and we're going down and we're

01:59:51.560 --> 01:59:53.979
in denial about what it's really doing long term

01:59:53.979 --> 01:59:56.659
and what it's doing to those folks. And at the

01:59:56.659 --> 01:59:59.979
end of the day, if everybody's on 4896, your

01:59:59.979 --> 02:00:02.739
recruitment issue is still going to be your recruitment.

02:00:04.020 --> 02:00:09.220
You know, it's still is that decline going down?

02:00:09.560 --> 02:00:13.579
And, you know, so. Again, I agree with you. I

02:00:13.579 --> 02:00:15.500
mean, I could lay my head at night with a clear

02:00:15.500 --> 02:00:19.000
conscience. But again, I want to say that the

02:00:19.000 --> 02:00:23.520
takeaway that I would have for anybody that says,

02:00:23.699 --> 02:00:26.760
well, how did you really do it? It starts with

02:00:26.760 --> 02:00:30.800
collaboration, but it starts with having a magnificent

02:00:30.800 --> 02:00:34.380
city manager who I'm not trying to put air in

02:00:34.380 --> 02:00:36.560
the guy's tires. I'm out of here in four months.

02:00:36.640 --> 02:00:40.239
So it's not like I'm sucking up. he's just a

02:00:40.239 --> 02:00:43.819
great man and he he has a great moral compass

02:00:43.819 --> 02:00:47.420
a good north star and he's always tried to do

02:00:47.420 --> 02:00:50.180
the right things for people and and for for this

02:00:50.180 --> 02:00:53.260
he balances the citizens needs and the employees

02:00:53.260 --> 02:00:55.960
needs with the resources available and he's got

02:00:55.960 --> 02:00:59.180
a council and a mayor that buy into that and

02:00:59.180 --> 02:01:02.239
that's kind of the secret sauce i guess is if

02:01:02.239 --> 02:01:04.560
there you have to have some building foundational

02:01:04.560 --> 02:01:06.520
blocks if you're going to have collaboration

02:01:06.520 --> 02:01:12.149
and and it starts with Don't let 24 -7, I mean,

02:01:12.149 --> 02:01:15.069
I guess 24 -7 would be the kickoff for good relations.

02:01:15.590 --> 02:01:19.029
But I would hope that that's not, that there

02:01:19.029 --> 02:01:22.649
would be that mentality. And, you know, you read

02:01:22.649 --> 02:01:25.689
so many stories about these contracts and the

02:01:25.689 --> 02:01:28.789
fighting, the back and the forth, and just the

02:01:28.789 --> 02:01:31.270
venom and everything that goes. And nobody's

02:01:31.270 --> 02:01:33.470
winning in a thing like that. Nobody is winning.

02:01:35.239 --> 02:01:37.119
You know, what I would say to my fellow city

02:01:37.119 --> 02:01:40.100
management people out there in the world is get

02:01:40.100 --> 02:01:44.119
your thick skin and don't get mad about what

02:01:44.119 --> 02:01:46.020
happened because they went around you on a council

02:01:46.020 --> 02:01:48.500
issue a year ago or whatever. Get past that.

02:01:49.039 --> 02:01:51.779
This is about the right thing for the right reason

02:01:51.779 --> 02:01:54.460
and taking care of people. So, you know, that's

02:01:54.460 --> 02:01:59.399
my parting message is we owe it to our citizens,

02:01:59.640 --> 02:02:06.260
a fresh firefighter, a fresh paramedic. When

02:02:06.260 --> 02:02:08.560
you get on an airplane, you have an expectation

02:02:08.560 --> 02:02:10.800
that that pilot is going to be awake for the

02:02:10.800 --> 02:02:17.560
flight and that they're dialed in. As a taxpayer,

02:02:17.819 --> 02:02:20.399
I want that fresh firefighter coming to me on

02:02:20.399 --> 02:02:24.220
their best. And if I'm that firefighter, I want

02:02:24.220 --> 02:02:26.199
to know that my employer has my back and they're

02:02:26.199 --> 02:02:28.600
going to take care of me. And when I used to

02:02:28.600 --> 02:02:31.060
interview folks in their final interview, I would

02:02:31.060 --> 02:02:36.250
literally tell them. We're both here for the

02:02:36.250 --> 02:02:40.869
same reason. But my job, your job is to go protect

02:02:40.869 --> 02:02:43.930
the citizens' asses. My job is to protect your

02:02:43.930 --> 02:02:46.590
ass. That's what my job is as a fire chief, is

02:02:46.590 --> 02:02:51.310
to keep my people trained, equipped, well -fed,

02:02:51.449 --> 02:02:54.250
so to speak. In every respect, I've got to take

02:02:54.250 --> 02:02:56.510
care of them. I'm not going to go kick a door

02:02:56.510 --> 02:02:59.729
as the fire chief. That's just not going to happen.

02:03:00.039 --> 02:03:02.640
they are and so my job is to protect them and

02:03:02.640 --> 02:03:04.760
then they can go take care of the public and

02:03:04.760 --> 02:03:07.819
this is just the next level of that it's just

02:03:07.819 --> 02:03:11.359
trying to support and take care of them but i'm

02:03:11.359 --> 02:03:13.819
just proud i work for an organization that that

02:03:13.819 --> 02:03:16.359
understands that collaboration is the way you're

02:03:16.359 --> 02:03:18.420
going to make things happen and that we were

02:03:18.420 --> 02:03:21.380
able to come to a table but i will tell you even

02:03:21.380 --> 02:03:23.100
i was shocked that we got done in one day of

02:03:23.100 --> 02:03:25.560
negotiation i never expected it to go that fast

02:03:26.880 --> 02:03:29.159
I figured we'd get there, but it would be a month

02:03:29.159 --> 02:03:31.760
or two of several meetings back and forth. I

02:03:31.760 --> 02:03:33.899
never dreamed we'd wrap it up in one day. But

02:03:33.899 --> 02:03:37.460
Brad, the union president, he didn't let any

02:03:37.460 --> 02:03:42.760
past issues cloud the goal. We didn't let anything

02:03:42.760 --> 02:03:45.640
cloud the goal. We just let's come together and

02:03:45.640 --> 02:03:49.000
let's get this done, guys. And so anyway, bless

02:03:49.000 --> 02:03:52.340
you, brother. Thank you for letting me come on

02:03:52.340 --> 02:03:55.000
the podcast. Invite me on. It's been a pleasure.

02:03:55.520 --> 02:03:58.319
And, you know, we'll have to do a check back

02:03:58.319 --> 02:04:00.439
and see how things are going in a year or so.

02:04:00.500 --> 02:04:03.859
But anyway, I'll be following you from afar.

02:04:04.100 --> 02:04:06.140
But you take care of my friend.