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the code BTN. Welcome to the Behind the Shield
podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing.
And this week, it is my absolute honor to welcome
on the show, former fire chief turned deputy
city manager of Plano, Texas, Sam Greif. Now,
for those of you who have been following this
for any amount of time, you will know I am extremely
passionate about making a healthy firefighter
work week. And Plano, Texas, just last week announced
that they are going to be the first in the state
of Texas to transition to the 24 -72 schedule.
Now, on my website, you will find a link that
says 24 -72, and it is full of episodes that
pertain to this. But this is the first time we've
had someone who's now in the city manager position
talking about the transition. So we discuss a
host of topics from Sam's own journey into the
fire service, identifying the issues with firefighter
mental and physical health. opposing the 4896,
how that led him to the conversation of the 2472,
the importance of humility and communication
by all involved to make this happen for their
fire department, the potential fiscal savings,
how they are going to transition over the next
four years, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment. Go to
whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I welcome
onto the show Sam Greif. Enjoy. Well, Sam, I
want to start by saying thank you so much for
being so generous with your time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Well, thanks
for having me. Looking forward to it. So where
on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
Plano, Texas. Brilliant. For people listening,
they probably recognize that city for good reasons,
I hope. So let's start at the very beginning
of your timeline then. Tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
Okay, real quick. Born in 1963, Fort Worth, Texas.
My father was Dr. Lawrence B. Greif. He was a
surgeon, general surgeon and family practitioner
later in his career. Mom was in the medical profession
as well in nursing. I had two older sisters.
Unfortunately, both of them have preceded me
in death. My latest one just back in August.
My oldest one, I lost the other one two years
ago. September this month, as a matter of fact.
So I'm only child now. But I've got one son who
is a veteran of the Fort Worth Fire Department,
18 -year veteran. He's a lieutenant. That's where
I did my first 30 years of firing EMS was in
the Fort Worth Fire Department. I started on
the Fort Worth Ambulance Service when I was just
shy of 19 years old. uh and then became a paramedic
a year later and then a few years after that
finally landed on the fire department but uh
did for 30 years there retired as the assistant
chief of ops came to plano texas to be the the
fire chief in summer of 2015 and uh did that
for about six and a half years and then uh my
boss is the city manager uh he was in the chair
i'm in now uh for many years and loved working
for him he's just a super great man and so many
levels and he uh And I just kind of click. And
so I had an opportunity to come into this position
as the DCM over public safety. And I've been
doing that now for coming up on four years in
November. And in full disclosure, I've already
announced my retirement a couple of months ago
that I'll be leaving at the end of January of
26. So I'm hanging it up after what will be 44
years of service. It's time to go spend some
time with my son and my grandbabies. I got two
little granddaughters. Spend some time with my
wife and give back to my family because they've
given a lot of their time for me to pursue my
career. Well, I'm sure we're going to unpack
some of that as we get in this conversation.
Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about your siblings.
That's horrendous that you had to deal with that.
Going back, though, to when the three of you
were kids, talk to me about the pros and the
cons of your parents being in the medical fields
that they were in. Well, Pop, I was an oops baby.
My dad was 42, I think, when I was born. So he
had been a World War II veteran. He was born
in 1922 and went off to war when he was 20 years
old. And coming up, the greatest generation,
no question about it, but he was a very tough
man. And even though he was a doctor. It was
kind of like when you got hurt on the playground
or something and you came in, it was like, does
this hurt? And so he was, rub some dirt on it,
son. So I would say that would be the negative
side, that he was just a tough guy, and so you
weren't going to get a whole lot of sympathy.
But if you did get a cold or you did get sick,
the upside was you had great medical care Johnny
on the spot. But I think long hours, dedication.
My dad became a doctor back in the days when
the doctor that did everything. He delivered
your baby. He took out your appendix, what have
you. And so making the rounds with him as a little
boy in the evenings, sometimes he would take
me to the hospital and, you know, you set the
weight room while he went and checked on patients.
And you see that dedication because that was
after he'd worked all day in the office, came
home, had dinner, and then he had to go back
and do what, you know, make rounds. And so, you
know, just long hours and the dedication to helping
others, I think that's one of the takeaways that
I had growing up in that environment. When we
talk about the World War II generation and we
say the greatest generation, the number of people
now that I've heard stories, whether it was father
or grandfather, you realize that even though
they did as a generation come back, roll up their
sleeves and get to work, that doesn't mean that
the things that happened, the things that they
saw, the things that they had to do didn't take
a toll. And in a way, we almost took away their
ability to talk about it by saying, no, no, shh.
You're the greatest generation. You just got
back to work. And you hear a lot of issues about
domestic violence and alcoholism and a lot of
these struggles that these veterans had from
that era that really never had the space to process
it. When you reflect back now with this different
lens that you have, what were the impacts, if
any, of the war on your father? You know, it's
funny you should say that. You can't see it,
but hanging on the wall here is a plaque of all
my dad's medals, shadow box. My dad, all he talked
about is that, you know, we went off to war and
came home. And you try to ask him questions about
it, he deflected. So that told me there was something
there. Years, actually, after I became the fire
chief here, I got curious. My pop passed away
of heart disease back in 1994. He was 72. I wanted
to know more about his history, so I wrote the
Department of Defense, and you can actually go
through a process in a certified letter, and
you can get the war records. And so I did all
that, and when I got the records back, I mean,
it brought tears to my eyes because I had no
idea what all he had solved. But, I mean, he
did both of his years of active duty from 1942
to 1944 was in the South Pacific, specifically
in the Battle of New Guinea. He earned a slew
of medals. He never talked about that, never
saw those medals. There's actually an organization
that will send you those medals once the records
have been revealed. And so it's something I have
hanging in my office as a tribute to my dad.
But I want to brag about it, but dad never talked
about it. But I'm sure he saw some horrific things
that probably hardened him. i don't you know
it's not like ptsd was invented in mind your
generation uh well i'm 20 years ahead of you
uh but you know it didn't get invented by it
it didn't start after us we just we've learned
how to have those conversations and i think back
in their days that was a sign of weakness to
have those conversations quite frankly so they
bottled up a lot of stuff when you listen to
you know whether it's poetry or, you know, read
stories when it comes to war going back centuries,
you hear the same phrase, you know, soldier's
heart, thousand yard stare, you know, shell shock.
These are all the same things that we're talking
about now. And I think, you know, there is a
balance. You know, you hear the term quiet professional.
And yet there's a certain point where, you know,
police officer, firefighter, special operations
soldier doesn't want to talk about some of the
things that they do or in the military case,
maybe can't talk about it. But there's a fine
line between never talking about it and not always
talking about it. And I think in our profession,
it's the same. There was this facade that we
just suck it up and get on with it. But sadly,
we realized through the, you know, the Florian
crests that have had the black band in them that
just litter our social media fields now, for
example, that if you do that, it does come at
a consequence. Yes. And like I said, you know,
our generation, we encourage it. We want people
to talk. We want to have after action. You know,
you want big, horrific events. But, yeah, when
you compartmentalize, I don't care what anybody
says. I mean, I think back and I wonder, you
know, did my dad's heart disease, was it a reflection
of maybe what he saw and how he bottled up emotions
and stuff? I mean, it's speculation at this point.
But he was awful young. He was 51 when he had
his first heart attack. And they didn't think
he was going to live through the night. I was
just a little boy, 10 or so at the time. And
he wound up living another, you know, 21, 22
years. I credit my stepmom with that because
she made him take breaks and made him eat right
and that kind of stuff. But, you know, I wonder
what impact did that have on him and not being
able to have those conversations. I just think
it's... We do a hard job. It's a hard job. It's
done by hard people making hard decisions quickly.
And, you know, I'd be lying if I said it hadn't
taken a toll on me. But, you know, I guess I
learned at an early age, if you can see human
tragedy and not be moved by it, if you can have
a call that involves especially children, I think
all of us universally agree those are always
the hardest. Come home and hug your kid tight.
You know, if you can't cry, there's something
wrong with you, quite frankly. I mean, you can't
unsee what our eyes have seen. You know, that's
what I always tell people. And, you know, every
day is not Chicago fire. It's not grueling. We
both know that. But it only takes one or two
bad days a year to really imprint in your mind
some things that. are tough to deal with uh and
and i i just encourage my guys uh you you have
to talk about it you know uh find an outlet and
i don't mean alcohol uh you know but but find
something to de -stress well you talk about the
physical manifestations too i mean there's now
we know that there's a direct correlation between
stress and also sleep deprivation and all things
physical ill health and all things mental ill
health. So is it the only thing? No, but yeah,
it's an amplifier. I mean, we rest and recover
so that we can perform at the highest level.
And if we have physicians or firefighters or
paramedics or police officers working themselves
into the ground, you know, there is going to
come a cost and it might be a mental break first
or it might be a physical break. Yeah, you know,
we've had this conversation, but you think about
all the critical professions that have much less
hours that you're allowed to stay in the saddle.
You know, aircraft pilots, the flight attendants,
you know, they're there for your safety, as we
always hear on those announcements, and they
truly are. I mean, it's not a belittlement of
the position at all. They're there to help make
sure when things go bad, you can help survive.
train conductors, truck drivers. The list goes
on and on. Well, we're not supermen. We're not
superwomen. We're not cartoon characters. We
have a limit switch. And if you stay in that
saddle, especially running companies, and I guess
part of my dogmaticness when it comes to how
long you should be able to stay on duty. is I
worked running companies in Fort Worth my whole
career. When I was out in operations, I worked,
you know, Station 24 and Station 3, east side
of town, very busy, low socioeconomic area of
the city, and we ran our butts off. I mean, just
period into story. So, and I was young at the
time. When I went back as a BC, late 40s, that
same house, it was a triple house, a BC, a ladder,
and an engine. i'll tell you it wasn't quite
as easy and i wasn't having to run all the calls
i was running four or five calls a day as a bc
out of that house compared to my engine company
that was running 18 19 20 calls um and when my
ironically i made assistant chief went back into
a desk job my son was had been on the job at
that point several years and uh he put in for
him wound up getting that station on a different
shift the same month i was leaving he was coming
in And he grew up in that station coming to visit
me. It was a big deal to him. He wanted to be
regular there. But I worried about him because
I knew how many calls he was making. Even at
his age, I used to stress, man, this is it's
taken a toll. You need to get plenty of rest.
You know, when you're young, you burn the candle
at both ends. We both know what it's like. But
it's, you know, long term. Yeah, there's I think
the problem that I have is folks that want to
argue with the science. The science is the science,
people. There's no way around it. The human body,
sleep deprivation, the mental aspect of it, it
leads to heart disease. It leads to disease processes.
Cancer has been linked to low immune systems.
Low immune systems are a direct link of not getting
enough rest. It is what it is, guys. There's
just no way you can get around it. It frustrates
me. to have those conversations and people want
to be in denial about that. 100%. Well, before
we kind of get to that topic, going back to when
you were younger, what were you playing and doing
as far as exercise and sport back then? Predominantly,
you know, I hung out with your friends. You played
sandlot, fake baseball, football, that kind of
stuff. Unfortunately, I was in a car accident
when I was 13 years old and wrecked my shoulder
really bad. Had to have shoulder reconstruction
done. So the doctors wouldn't clear me for contact
sports. So I tried to play baseball and the doctor
explained to me, that's still a contact sport,
son. You can't do that one either. So I wound
up playing tennis. That was the one thing they
said that I could play. So I played a lot of
tennis and then, you know, got into golf as a
young adult and started playing golf. uh was
not able to play organized sports in school unfortunately
but just getting out with your buddies you know
anything with a ball i was there it uh you know
just enjoyed playing uh being outdoors what about
career aspirations you you had parents in the
medical field were you considering the fire service
was there something else prior i was blessed
uh james i was I tell everybody I was blessed
beyond measure. I knew when I was 14 or 15 years
old that I wanted to be a firefighter. I was
obsessed with it. I did my term theme in high
school, my English term theme on the fire service.
Read Engine Company, report from Engine Company,
82, and amongst other books for my literature
study. But I just knew that's what I wanted to
do. I had an older cousin that I was close with,
and he was an Arlington firefighter. And I would
go hang out at the station on weekends and the
guys would, you know, let me wash the truck and
let me mop the floors, you know, and they'd sneak
me on the truck to go buy groceries and tell
me Layla, if they got a call. But they, I just
love that feeling of being in the firehouse.
And I love the way those guys, they loved one
another. They, you know, I guess I can say grab
ass. They grab ass with one another. They had
a good time, and it was like, man, these guys
are laughing while they're working. They enjoy
what they're doing. It's exciting, and I was
never one that could. What was not on my career
aspiration is sitting in this chair. I can tell
you that. I never saw myself as being an office
guy. Even up 10 years ago, that was never in
my radar screen. Being a firefighter paramedic
is all I wanted to do. I watched Johnny and Roy
religiously. And so I knew at a young age, so
I went to EMT school right out of high school,
to junior college, and got hired just as I was
graduating from that. And literally, I'm not
19 years old yet, and I'm driving an emergency
ambulance in West Fort Worth. The city's ambulance
service was privatized back then. In fact, it
just went fire -based back in July of this year
in Fort Worth, finally. But I knew. I mean, there
was not a doubt in my mind. Candidly, it was
tough as hell. I mean, I was scrawny. I weighed
133 pounds, 5 '9", 133 pounds. And it was tough
to compete against the Giants. And back in those
days, getting a fire service job was like the
lottery ticket. And so I was testing anywhere
and everywhere I could test while still working
24 -48 on the ambulance. And then finally...
was blessed to get on Fort Worth in August of
1985. And the rest was history. But I never looked
back. I was doing exactly what I wanted to do
with my life. And ironically, my pop could not
have been more proud of me. He was very happy
that I knew what I wanted to do and that I was
pursuing it. And he lived long enough to see
me make two promotions. I was a baby lieutenant
when he passed away. you know it i i say blessed
because there's so many people that are they
go to school because they thought or their parents
told them this is what you need to be and and
they became that and then they're successful
at it but they're not genuinely happy and i'm
going to use teachers as my example real quick
if you think back when you were in school at
whatever level You had a teacher that you can
still close your eyes to this day and you're
like, man, I love being in their class. I love
the enthusiasm. I love the impact. But you also
could close your eyes and think of that teacher
that you're asking yourself, why the hell did
you become a teacher? You clearly hate kids.
And I think that's an analogy, but I think it's
a true one that the ones that just teaching is
their lifeblood. They're the ones that impact
people in such a positive way year after year
for their whole career. And then you have those
that they're just miserable. They don't want
to be in that classroom, but they're too far
in or that's what they went to school for. And
they're miscast. I was blessed. I knew what I
wanted to do at a young age. I pursued it. And
the Lord blessed me to be able to provide me
with a very rewarding career, both in Fort Worth
and here in Plano. I mean, I'm sorry, December
31st of 1993. I would have called in sick that
day because a guy decided that it was a good
idea to hit a fire truck head on after a false
call was called in. And that really derailed
my physical career as far as I've had some major
spine surgeries. It was a very horrific accident.
And that took me out of the field for several
years before I was. qualified to go back to physically
to operations but made it back so you know no
tears but other than that wouldn't trade anything
for the people I got to work with and for just
an amazing as you know I mean we're a unique
breed and I say we because even though I left
the fire service coming up on four years ago
now I'm going to be a fireman in my heart till
the day they bury me. And I make no apologies
for the profession I chose or the defense of
the profession. I couldn't agree more. The way
the Marines refer to themselves, like once a
Marine, always a Marine. It's the same as us.
And I tell people just to prove it, you know,
you're driving along with your family. A car
rolls over in front of you. Do you keep driving?
No, of course you don't, because you're a firefighter.
You're a paramedic. You're going to go do your
thing. Going back to that wreck for a moment,
was that a deliberate? driving into the the fire
engine from what i was told uh by the the person's
father was what i was told not directly but evidently
he had told my chief uh i was in the hospital
that uh he felt like that it was premeditated
uh he had been going through a divorce he had
just taken his daughter back to the ex -wife
he had had her for the holidays it was it was
new year's eve day and it was a blue sky day
you've heard that saying it The weather was perfect
in Fort Worth, Texas that day. It was a blue
sky. It was just a few minutes before the noon
hour. We'd already had four or five runs that
day. And this one was supposed to be an auto
pedestrian. And at the very last possible second,
his car came across the median or the center
line and just center punched right into my side,
the officer's side of the truck. And it was one
of those E1 hurricane pumps. you know, low slung
windshields. If I had not been wearing, we only
had lap belts in those days, but if I had not
had that lap belt on, I'd have gone out that
window. There's no question. My bunker boots
went out the window from being in the floor.
And the air pack, to this day, I'll say to this
day, for many years, the picture of this truck
was on every trade magazine. It was in an advertisement
for the buckle systems to be able to lock your
air bottles in because my air bottle came out.
Hit me in the head, bounced off my leg, and went
across the cab and took the driver's window out
and hung on the windshield wiper blade. So it
was hanging on the outside of the truck. And
the name of the truck, ironically, we were allowed
to nickname our trucks. Our truck was called
the War Wagon. And so here's this demolished
truck with an air pack hanging out the window
being held up by the strap of the windshield
wiper. And the gentleman that took it was named
Glenn Ellman. a famous fire photographer in Fort
Worth. And you can't pick up a trade journal
or a magazine that doesn't have his pictures
in it. And he wound up, that picture got sold
and was used for years as advertisements for
the buckle systems for those air packs. But yeah,
it was, by all accounts, it appeared to be delivery,
yes. I've had this conversation a few times on
here. When I worked in California, I was a tillerman.
So I was in the doghouse at the back of the ladder
and you don't have your pack. You've got to have
it down in the compartment below. So you climb
down, throw your pack on and go to work. And
it made me realize how easy it is to throw a
pack on in a few seconds and how this, you know.
clean cabs, stops, grabs, you know, rhetoric
that's thrown around is just so ridiculous because
if you can't throw your pack on while your LT
is telling you what they want or you're doing
a quick survey of the scene, then you need to
go back to fire academy. But you'd also don't
leap off a fire engine and run straight through
the front door of a building. But one of the
big things aside from the decon side was simply
that, you know, the number of... hazards that
come with having the packs inside whether they
fly around in a wreck or whether you get hung
up with all the things that are strapped in versus
climbing off with you know no incumbent then
grabbing it from a compartment i really feel
like you know if i got to choose personally i
would much rather grab my pack from outside because
you're so much safer in the cab when it isn't
yeah yeah I had a whole different viewpoint after
that, I can assure you. Yeah, I can imagine.
About anything laying loose in the vehicle. You
know, our chief's cars, we had cages, like a
cop car, basically, to keep all of our equipment
from being able to come forward for that very
reason. Things you don't really think about until
you... How many accidents have you made in your
life, but when you're in a horrific one yourself,
it changes your perspective in an area. 100%.
Well, one more area just to... touched on something
you alluded to. As we have this conversation,
we talk about the future of the fire service
and therefore getting that demand back from when
you were testing, even from when I was testing,
so that you are able to choose the top percentage
of a list and really find the cream of the crop
when it comes to recruits. I think there's a
very responsible conversation in our profession
as to the age of a candidate. As we learn in
neuroscience now that the brain isn't really
fully formed until about 25. So once we have
the demand and the recruitment back to where
it needs to be, I feel like getting an 18 -year
-old running the kind of calls that we see in
our profession is irresponsible. And if you look
at law enforcement, it's 21 before you can be
a cop. What is your perspective on the youngest
age that someone can enter this profession? Well,
I guess I probably could have come at it from
a little bit different of a lens because I was
young when I got into it. I mean, I was a good
paramedic. I was a good EMT for a year. And then
I became a paramedic, well, the following year
or so. Close to two years, a year and a half
as an EMT before I made a medic. But I was a
damn good paramedic, and I handled myself well.
I was young. I got into the fire service at 22.
But I think I would have been fine had I gotten
in at 18 when I first started testing. So, you
know, we're going to mature as we go through
our stages of life. But I think it really...
I guess, James, from my perspective is I've seen
some young kids come on and they have been dynamite
and they're just do really well. And then I've
seen some that have come on and they have faltered.
It's too much to handle the money, the whole
thing. And sometimes it's the peer group they're
hanging with is the problem. But then I've also
seen some older folks come on and auger in and
do really poorly. So I think it's more individual
based, to be honest with you. So I don't really
have a problem with the 18. I do think it's an
uphill battle for someone that age because a
lot of times they just don't know how to carry
themselves through the interview process and
so forth. So candidly, I didn't hire a lot of
young people when I was in charge of hiring,
but I don't want to paint with a broad brushstroke
either and just say that, you know, but statistically,
yeah, I don't think there's any argument. You're
probably going to get a better person at 21,
22 than you do at 18, but I don't want to just.
I feel like I'd still leave the door open for
them. They just got a higher bar to prove to
get on. I think where I'm coming from, and I
think the answer is, yeah, give yourself the
latitude to maybe make exceptions to the rule.
But from an ability to process trauma, there
are a lot more vulnerable at 18. All of us, they,
us, we were a lot more vulnerable at 18 than
we were 21. So I think that's where this conversation
is coming from. At what age? can you start exposing
a young person to the level and the frequency
of trauma that we see in this profession? Yeah,
indefinitely. I think being a little older, but
again, I mean, I feel like it's, you know, we
see things that other people, if they saw, I'm
going to give you just a brief example of what
happened just this past week. There was a news
conference just down the street at Central Fire
Station slash administration, my old office.
They were doing a news conference about 2472.
And so all the news media was there. And a gentleman,
an elderly gentleman, came and parked his car
and calmly got out from what witnesses are saying.
He parked on the admin side. He walked around.
He pulled out a weapon. He went into the yard
and shot himself in the head. While all the news
media is there, while everybody's gathered around.
And there was a couple of our civilian ladies
that work in the city that were down there for
EMS billing meeting, and they witnessed it. And
it's difficult, you know, and people can go their
whole lives and not see something like that.
And when they do, they need some counseling.
They got to decompress that. We see that stuff
all the time. You know, if you and I take our
shirts off, well, at least I don't have a big
S tattooed on my chest. I can guarantee you.
And so we're human and we're going to see things.
I mean, I, you know, I can remember through my
career, I would I would hit dark spots, you know,
times when you would see, again, mostly kids,
but are just horrific events where there's just
a big loss of life, senselessness to it. I remember
after 9 -11, man, I went through a depressive
state. I'm sure all of us did that were in the
profession back then. America, we all mourned,
but I think those of us that are in the profession,
I just remember busting out crying like three
or four days after it happened. My wife came
over and hugged me, and she said, I've been waiting
for that to happen. I've been waiting for you
to let go. She knew when I would have a bad call.
A young woman, you know, when we were young,
we first got married, you know, you'd see a young
woman that had been brutally beaten or raped
or some senseless tragedy. And, you know, you
call home at 2 a .m. to check to see if everything's
all right. My wife is pretty intuitive. She realizes
he has seen something bad. There's a reason he's
calling at 2 a .m., waking me up to make sure
I'm OK. And in retrospect, was that the proudest
thing for me to do? No, but I'm human. And, you
know, like I said, it's. I don't have any trouble
crying. If it's a bad event, I'm a human being.
And if I will just say this, if we ever get to
the point where we're so callous that we say
it doesn't impact us, then you need to find a
different profession. Because I don't know how
you can have empathy and compassion for your
fellow human being if you're really in that mindset
that you can just compartmentalize and nothing
bothers you. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well,
you alluded to the 2472. Let's go back a little
bit. Talk to me about the working environment
that you found yourself in at the beginning of
your journey in Fort Worth and then lived experience.
What did you see as far as physical, mental,
the toll that you experienced when you were actually
in operations? Well, I think. The physical toll
is pretty obvious. I mean, obviously, I worked
at a house where we worked out as a group, so
you stay in physical condition. I mean, we lived
that. We had minimum standards to stay on the
truck physically. And so I would say the physical
aspect was a little bit easier to overcome. I
think it was more of the mental aspect. But I
was one of those folks that I never put my part
-time job. ahead of my fire job. The fire service
for me was never about, I just want to pay the
benefits in the retirement. Like I told you earlier,
I was called to the fire service like a preacher
gets called to be a minister. I mean, it was
just what I knew I wanted to do. So my part -time
job from probably eight or 10 years after I got
into the service, my part -time job became the
fire service. I would teach at the academy. I
would be put on special committees by the fire
chief to do some stuff as I was rising through
the ranks. But I learned how to get rest. I was
one of those guys that would go home, take a
shower and get in bed and take a power nap for
a few hours. So that's how I kind of coped with
the, you know, or, you know, it was a relatively
easy shift, which we didn't get a bunch of those.
But, you know, go play golf, do something. These
folks come on and we're all hustling. We're all
trying to make a buck. But I'll be honest with
you, fire service didn't pay what it pays today.
We didn't have the discretionary income that
these folks have today. But I didn't get into
that vortex. You know, folks will they get into
it while I'm painting houses or I'm moving or
I'm doing landscaping, whatever. And man, they
get off work no matter how tired they are. And
then they go right into that that work environment
for two days. And then they're right back at
the station and they're not getting any rest.
I think the only time I ever got into that where
I'm like, OK, I got to do something was when
I contracted my own home. I grew up in the trades
and had a lot of uncles and stuff that taught
me things. And so I built a home in 19. Well,
right about the time that accident happened,
I built a home out on some land out in the country
that I lived in for 22 years. Building that home
every day, beating on that place from sun up
to sun down 14, 15 hours a day, and then working
at a hot station, it was the longest four months
of my life. And, I mean, it did take a physical
toll on me. And when I say that, I literally
was bitter toward that home for the first six
months I lived in it because I was so pissed
because I'd worked so hard that you just become,
it becomes something that. You know, you don't
look at it as joyous. It took me a while to start
enjoying the place because I was so mad about
what I'd gone through to get it. And, you know,
I didn't have to push myself that hard. I was
young and dumb. If I had to do it over again,
I wouldn't do it that way. But anyway, you know,
bottom line is you've got to take time to rest.
And sometimes, and this is where I'm saying I
look at this from both sides, it can't just be
the city and the fire service, the chiefs, They
can't just be 100 % responsible for your health.
You as an individual have to take some personal
responsibility. We can make a lot of things to
improve your safety, but then the troops have
to be willing to do their part as well. You need
to eat right. You need to get some rest. You
need to, again, decompress, do something that's
relaxing. Don't hustle all the time. Don't party
every night if you're a single guy. Just because
the bars are open, you don't have to be in them
every night. I think that there has to be that,
you know, we owe our troops the best that we
can provide them with the science that's available
at the time. And we have to keep in mind the
science is going to change. It's evolutionary.
What we thought was right years ago, we've now
found out, you know, yeah, that old, oh, you're
going to push the fire, you got to take a beating.
You know, we're learning some, Governor's Island
taught us a lot. But, you know, there has to
be accountability on both sides. And we have
to provide the safest work environment we can
while realizing it's an inherently dangerous
position. So there's going to be some, no matter
what we do, things are going to happen badly.
But then the troops have to meet us halfway.
And so personally, I've watched a lot of your
podcasts, later start times. That's like a taboo
subject. I'm just going to be honest with you.
I don't know of either one of my previous department,
which I've not been there in 10 years, but my
boy's still there. I don't hear any drums beating
over there for a later start time. And they start
at 8, is 0800. is when you had to be there. Here
in Plano, it's 0630. And they are, I've not heard
anybody beating down the door for a later start
time. Personally, I would think a 10 a .m. or
like Austin and noon would be a wonderful time
to start. But again, it's framing your mentality
to say the fire service is my job and it pays
me well enough that I don't have to work another
job. This is my chosen career. put that first
and but when you start pilling back the layers
of well why do you not want to come in it there's
that usually comes back down to something they're
doing on their days off is the reason why they
don't want to come in at a later start time and
what's your experience been on the later start
time so it's interesting because this came across
my radar just probably two years ago i think
i'll credit sarah jenki i think it was her that
really talked about it and i was like why Why
do we start so early? It makes no sense. And
until you really understand the sleep medicine
and the reason why we need this extra day between
shifts, then that's not going to have any traction
at all. But if I think about again, I was always
in super high up tempo stations. If I'm oncoming
shift, you know, I realize this in my career
working one day on two days off, even though
that that phrase is poorly worded. I only saw
my family one third of the mornings that I had
my entire career because the ongoing shift, I
was up and out the house while they were still
asleep. The returning shift, when I came off
shift, they'd already gone to school and work.
And then the third day, I actually get to see
them in the morning. So if I'm ongoing, I get
to wake up with my family, have breakfast with
my kids, take them to school, kiss my wife goodbye.
then pack my stuff, go to the station, do the
exact same thing I would have done a few hours
prior. But instead of breakfast together with
the station, it would be lunch. If I'm off going
shift and I got my ass handed to me all night,
I can actually maybe get two or three hours sleep
before I can get up, do pass on and then go home.
So now I'm not becoming one of these statistics
that we lose on the way home from a shift, which
happens all the time. So to me, that is a win
-win. Now, then you add in the 24 -72, so you've
got that extra 24. You can still do those couple
of days of your side gig because that first day
you kind of rest, and then day two and three,
you can still do it. And kind of carrying on
the conversation you had about jobs, one thing
I've heard from usually chiefs early on when
I had a lot of pushback was, well, if we give
them more time off, they'll just work more. Now,
what they're thinking is overtime. Well, the
whole point of this initiative is to make the
overtime go away in the first place. So now the
ability to work, apart from occasional overtime,
which I don't think anyone has a problem with,
is to do something else. If you want extra income,
if you want to save for your kid's college or
you're a water skier and you want to buy a boat,
whatever it is, then, yeah, you might need to
get some extra income. And so there's nothing
wrong with having a personal training business,
landscaping, construction, whatever it is. as
long as you go to bed as long as you're home
with your family every night so this is the the
thing i think between the two is um you know
if you're taking an extra overtime shift if you're
working on an ambulance or an er overnight then
you're an idiot that's when you should be getting
rest but should you be able to work between you
know eight and whatever six on you know day two
and three after a 24 i think yeah that's that's
absolutely fine so just like you said the responsibility
of us for understanding sleep hygiene and responsible
work in between is imperative but also the the
administration the chief's understanding that
it's okay for their people to work as long as
they're doing it sensibly so i think this is
the problem if it's a them and us conversation
it never gets anywhere you meet in the middle
and as you said both parties are responsible
because we are now all of a sudden you're coming
together and finding solutions what is your i
guess what i was asking your experiences too
though what how did what is what do you see amongst
the troops because that's what i was saying it's
the troops i mean the fire chief to my knowledge
i know i never cared and i don't think that the
current chief would care what time they start
it's they are the ones that are animate that
they don't want to go to a later start time what
is what is your sense out there on the east coast
amongst the firefighters themselves do they want
to later start time or are they kind of embedded
in that early it's it's a new conversation a
lot of people when the penny drops go why why
aren't we doing this this does make so much sense
because if you look at the research when we arrive
on shift we're already chronically sleep deprived
i lived 70 miles away from my station most of
my career so i'm getting up at five o 'clock
in the morning And, you know, the night before
a shift, it's not like you go into bed at nine
and having this deep, peaceful sleep. You're
just not. So it makes a lot of sense. But just
like anything, as you've seen, there are people
out there that will literally say the 4896 is
better than 2472. We'll unpack the math in that
in a moment. But that's complete lunacy. It's
the same with this because they're like, oh,
but I've got to hand my kids off. Well, think
about it. You can take your kids to the daycare
if you have this shift. I think rather than looking
at as, oh, but it doesn't work because I've got
everything around the way it is now, having the
latitude to be able to go, well, what if? What
if we did it that way? I guarantee you a majority
of the people will go, you know what? That is
better. We do need to give that a try. Yes. Like
I said, I would have been down with it, but I
was always the. the kid that didn't want to wake
up from school anyway. So I would have had no
trouble with the later start time, but it was
just not something that was even talked about
or discussed. In fact, for years, firefighters
around the state would make fun of Austin because
they started at noon. But I got a buddy that's
retired out of there, and he's like, it's all
what you get used to. He brought up all the same
things that you brought up, the positives of
it. And it's like, it's not a bad, you know.
One of the things he brought up is the lack of
traffic that you have to deal with because you're
coming in after rush hours over and you're leaving
after rush hours over with. And so to me, that
would be a perk in itself. But anyway, I'm just
going back to the broader discussion of at the
end of the day, we have to be accountable on
both sides of the fence. So as leaders, as the.
The people with the purse strings, however you
want to look at it, we have to prioritize firefighter
safety in every respect that we can, but then
the firefighters have to do their part too. And
you'll hear, well, we can manage that, but it
doesn't get managed. I've talked to several chiefs
that have crews that work 4896, and their words
to me were all, and I've talked to several. When
you get behind the scenes at the pub, at the
NFA or, you know, at our chief's convention,
they're all honest with you. They're like, whatever
problems you have today, you're still going to
have those problems. They're just going to be
exacerbated, quote unquote, from an Arizona chief
that's still on that shift. And he's like, contractually,
we're never going to get them off that shift.
He said, but they. you're not going to get rid
of any of the problems. Your PTSD is still going
to be just as bad, your divorce rates, your cancer
rates, your heart attacks, your mistakes. He
went on and on. He goes, it'll just be worse.
And so you'll hear the guys that are trying to
push for it say, well, it's cost neutral. No,
it's not. It's not cost neutral. And so, and
again, that has been somewhat of a, you know,
just a point of contention and angst is that.
We need an honest conversation. And if it's really
more time off, man, we're down with that. I mean,
I don't know any city manager that can argue
with the science. Now, they can talk about, well,
how are we going to finance it? And that's where
you start getting into the give and the take.
And there's different ways to do it. But at the
end of the day, can anybody with a straight face
really argue that 56 hours a week is, well, put
it another way. accountants wouldn't work 56
hours a week. Purchasing agents wouldn't work
56 hours a week. You know, city managers don't
work. I mean, we might wind up working 56 hours
a week, but it's not the same type of, you know
what I'm saying? I mean, at the end of the day,
we're talking about, we're having to make decisions.
We being the fire service, you're making critical
decisions that just don't impact you. They either
impact the patient you're working on. or the
rest of your crew, or if you're a battalion chief,
now I've got an entire six or seven companies
on a scene that I'm responsible for. How do you
do that in a fatigued state? It doesn't make
any sense to me that people are going to try
to argue. Again, we don't have S's on our chest.
There's no way that you're going to be in a good
mental state when you're fatigued. The whole
concept of working 56 hours a week, I know it's
the way we've always done it, but that don't
make it right. And so understanding more and
more about why we're still, we don't make as
many fires as we did back in my day. And we have
better safety equipment. We have smog capturing.
We have all these things. And we keep saying,
well, it's because of the plastics. James, I'm
63 years old almost. Plastics were around when
I was a baby. You know, we didn't just invent
plastics yesterday. And so you get to looking
at it and the more you start dealing into the
science and a full disclosure, I didn't necessarily
get into the science as deep until the 4896 discussion
came up. And then in researching and looking
to see, OK, how is this? Because intuitively
you just hear that and you're like, that doesn't
sound like it's going to make you a better. better
product for the citizens or for your own safety.
But when you start digging into the science,
you realize fatigue is causing cancer. Fatigue
is causing heart disease. And those aren't going
down. The fires are going down. Running companies
are still running companies. We were running
companies back in my day. We're still running
companies. So it's not necessarily that, although
here in Plano, our call volume has gone up significantly
over the last decade. in your bigger cities it's
always been busy so what's the common denominator
and then you start looking into the science and
i found you and your podcast doing an internet
search and trying to and and i was like well
holy hell and and you start putting the pieces
together and you realize our cancer rates aren't
getting better because we're not changing the
common denominator which is we're working too
damn many hours it uh it's not everybody kept
arguing about when you get four days off you'll
come back better rested i'm like guys if you
send me to hawaii for two weeks i'm going to
come back rested if you send me for three weeks
i'm going to come back even more rested but if
you tell me i've got to work two solid weeks
with no days off or whatever in order to earn
the right to go do that it's it's it's not you
can't get there from here i don't care what anybody's
and i know there's passionate people that are
going to argue with me on this but I just tell
them to go BS somebody else. I wasn't born behind
this desk. I was born on a fire truck and an
ambulance. And I know what it does to my body
when I'm having to work that many hours. And
there's a difference between doing it at 22 and
doing it at 52. And you got to also look at who's
on that truck with you. And a lot of times the
gray haired guy wearing glasses that's cranky,
he's 52 and he's the captain or the lieutenant.
he he's not handling it but his mentality is
he's got to macho up and he's got to handle it
like the young guys do but we both know we're
not the same as every decade of life gets tougher
so anyway i said i think we've got to we've got
to reframe how many hours a week should we be
working and a 42 -hour work week is a hell of
a lot closer to a 40 -hour work week the rest
of america works um and and his You know, I've
had a private conversation about this. There's
studies out there now that are showing in progressive
countries that a 32 -hour work week is actually
the sweet spot. And you're going to maintain
that or better productivity than you do working
a five -day work week. So, again, I think we
have to – the science is the science. And we
are living in an era where, unfortunately, science
is – Not being followed. Let's just leave it
at that. I'm not going to get into political
debate. But you know what I'm talking about.
You know, it's like we're going to ignore all
this data because it doesn't fit our narrative.
And that's that's not the way to run a railroad.
Well, that's a good segue. As far as not acknowledging
the data, you've got a pretty interesting perspective
now for decades in the fire service. What have
you seen as far as the. impact on recruitment
and retention over the last few decades as we've
kept doing it, air quotes, the same as we've
always done it? I've noticed really and truly
it's been the last decade. I didn't really notice
it in my career in Fort Worth. We didn't lose
people. They were lifers when they came on. Unless
they did something stupid and got fired, they
didn't leave to go to another department. poached,
quite frankly, from a lot of departments. And
they were lifers. Fast forward, after I became
the chief here, a few years after I was the chief,
I started having guys coming in and they were
resigning to go be real estate agents. They were
resigning to go be, I had one left to go be a
police officer. We're still trying to get him
some psychological help. We had guys that were
leaving to go in completely different professions.
Or in Plano, we have a Texas municipal retirement
system, which is a statewide retirement system,
and you can leave after 20 years. Now, you're
not going to make a whole lot, but you can draw
a salary after 20 years of service. We're seeing
people punching out at 20 and 25 years instead
of 30 and 35 like we always did. So that's the
retention side. Definitely seeing a difference,
degradation in being able, you know, and I'm
not going to say it's in alarming levels, but
it just didn't happen before. If there was one
or two a year in a department of 800 people at
the time, that was an anomaly. And over here,
you know, a department of 400 or something, and
it's happening more and more frequently that
they're leaving to go some other totally different
profession. Then on the recruitment side. Definitely
a big difference. I think somewhere, it used
to be around, I'll go back to Fort Worth, about
1 ,600, 1 ,700 people would show up for a written
test. And a year or two ago, I think my son told
me that they had like 800 or something. It was
like half that amount showed up for a test. Now,
that's still way more than what they had openings
available. But when you slice the number of people,
that are applying in half, you can start to see
a trend line here. If we're a business and this
is our sales, we're getting damn nervous right
now because things are trending in the wrong
direction. And so in order to bring that back,
and so I'm going to give you some science here,
some hard data. We have a test coming up next
week that we're opening up for. firefighter emts
because we've been we changed in 2016 i went
before the commission and got it changed to paramedic
firefighter was the bar to take our test because
we were sending two people to school a year and
both years in a row half of them failed out and
i had people retiring out faster so keeping medics
was was a commodity so we switched to a paramedic
only model paramedic firefighter And through
the years, we've been able to fill the slots.
I'm not going to tell you that we can't fill
them, but we've seen a rapid decline. So we gave
a test today, and we had 58 people show up that
were certified paramedic firefighters to take
the exam. We won't, obviously, after they process
out through the physical and all that, and you
start winnowing them down, background, and then
going before the review board, that number will
get much smaller. Since we're going to be hiring
more people now to go to 2472, we're going to
have to open the door back up to firefighter
EMTs, which I don't want that to sound like,
oh, well, you're getting a second tier. Firefighter
EMTs are, you know, wonderful. And it's just
a matter of we run the ambulances, so you've
got to have paramedics just being pragmatic.
But we've got a bunch now because that's all
we've been hiring since 2016. And we're still
going to continue to get those that are going
to apply. But where I'm going with this is the
chief. told me today they closed the sign up
period. We have 400 and I think 58 was the number,
but it was well over 400 firefighter EMT signed
up to take our test next week. We've never come
close to a number like that before. Word is out.
It's been all over our news media down here.
It is, you know, you can't look anywhere and
not hear or read a story in general media, not
just in the fire service circles, that we've
gone to 2472 and that we're now under a contract
with the council last Monday night or Tuesday
night voted in. And so there's your answer. If
you want to talk about recruitment, I don't need
to say more. We're going to have a plethora of
people to choose from to fill what will probably
be about 40 slots this year through attrition
plus the 22 new hires. And we're going to be
a hiring factory for a while because now we're
adding 22 every year to get to 2472. We've got
a fire station that's going to start construction
at the end of next year. It'll be our 14th station.
And we're going to need 22 people just for that
station alone when we open it up on top of the
22 that we're going to be hiring. So there's
44 plus we have an attrition rate of about 15
a year. So we're going to be hiring a lot of
people over the next several years and we're
going to be making a lot of promotions over the
next several years. But we're doing that. The
chief is doing that in a very smart way. He's
going to do it over a two year period of time
because as we're transitioning. The guys are
going to get more and more days off each year
of this contract until they get to the fourth
year. At the start of the fourth year, they'll
actually go to 2472. But then they'll owe seven
debit days back to the city that year. But next
year, in 26, they're going to get six shifts
off. The next year, 27, they're going to get
12 shifts off. Then the third year, they're going
to get 18 24 -hour shifts off. So every twice
a month or six of the 12 months, they're going
to get two five -day breaks. And then the other
six months, they'll get a five -day break. We'll
help put a 24 -hour vacation day up against one
of those, and you're off 10 days. So you can
see where this is going. We're going to have
a lot of people that are going to be wanting
to come on the department. But we're going to
need those promotions in advance because we're
going to be having people off. you know you're
going to still need a captain or a lieutenant
what have you so a driver so we're going to stage
those in but the chief and his team they've done
a remarkable job of laying all this out preparing
for it i mean i think it's going to go relatively
smooth there's always going to be a gotcha that
we didn't see that's just part of life but i'm
excited i'm excited for the next generation of
firefighters i'm excited for my brothers and
sisters that are going to be able to I always
used to tell them, I want you to go home safe,
and that was a mantra in the fire service for
many years. Everybody goes home. When I would
talk to my people, I would always tell them,
when I say everybody goes home, my definition
is you go home 30 years from now with a healthy
heart, a healthy set of lungs, a healthy mind,
and I joke to go break the retirement system.
Live so long that you get way more out of it
than you put in. That's my definition of go home.
And so this is just the next iteration of bringing,
you know, health and wellness to the fire department.
And not pat myself on the back. I had a hell
of a team around me. But while I was the chief,
when I got here, we had no health and wellness
program. No, you know, 1582 type physical. We
got live scan in here and we've now had them
for, I guess, about eight years in a row now.
and they have found a plethora of things wrong
with our guys at the early stages where it's
been curable. We got plow events. We didn't have
a single exhaust capture in any of our stations.
We got it all in our stations, and we got extractors
at every station so the bunker gear can be properly
washed in a professional machine. We've done
all those things while I was the chief. Now,
let me back up real quick and say that happened.
Because did I champion it? Absolutely. But if
the people in this building didn't buy into it,
it wouldn't have happened. If my now city manager,
who was the deputy city manager that I worked
for at the time, if he didn't drink the Kool
-Aid and believe in it, and he didn't make it
a priority to take to the city manager, Bruce
Glasscock, who hired me and was our longtime
city manager slash former police chief here in
the city before moving into this role, our city
manager. If they didn't buy into it, then they
wouldn't have been able to have gotten the mayor
and the council to buy into it. So the purse
strings have to come into this equation. There's
no money tree. This stuff has to come from somewhere.
And there's only so much pie. So the prioritization
of these things happened because the leaders.
So, yeah, I was the cheerleader for it. But if
my city manager was to get out of my office and
don't bring it up again, I mean, it falls. It
stops right there. I mean, that's just the real
world we live in. And so. A lot of the things
that have happened have happened because of the
culture of our city. We actually have people
with the highest levels that truly believe that
public safety is paramount to the public. It's
important to everybody, and we have an onus on
us to make sure that we're giving our troops,
fire, police, EMS, the best equipment, the best
training. And then all the things like peer fitness,
being able to, you know, we didn't have a peer
team. You know, we bought people in from New
York and from the IFF, and we formed a peer team.
And we've worked hard. And so 24 -72, to me,
is just the next step. That's really what it
boils down to. It's just the next step in following
the science and doing the right thing. to try
to provide the best. And for those out there
in the world that will go, well, if you're really
trying to limit hours, then put them on a 40
-hour work week and put them on 7 to 3, 3 to
11, 11 to 7. They've never worked on a damn fire
truck or an ambulance, or they wouldn't bring
that up. That's not how it works. So, you know,
the sweet spot is that 24 hours. We're built
for that. We can do that. We manage that just
fine. after that is when you need to have that
break when you do have a bad 24. And I know I'm
preaching to the choir here, but, you know, we
can tell. Firefighter safety has always been
number one for me, and I don't apologize for
it, and I never will. Well, we were talking before
we hit record about, and I've heard this with
Pasco and other places where this has been successful,
obviously there has to be collaboration, union,
city, you know, the firefighters themselves,
the chiefs. Otherwise, if egos are getting in
the way, nothing's going to happen. Talk to me
about the initial conversation and the resistance
that you got with the 4896 proposal. And then
how were you able to convince the membership
themselves, but also from a financial point of
view, show the city not only the improvement
and the health of their firefighters, but the
fiscal element as well? Well, just real quick
on 4896. I mean, I was against it when I was
the fire chief. Like I said, it was something
that was, you know, it's caught on here in Texas
really big. And the more departments that go
to it, the more than the pressure is, well, we're
going to lose our people over there. So we've
got to go to it now, too. And, you know, I just
said, guys, you know, no, we're not doing it.
I actually did a video for the department years
ago when I was still the chief, just shutting
that down. We're not going to have that conversation.
We're not doing it. Stop. Because two days in
the saddle at a busy company is just not a good,
like I said, the science. We're going to have
to rehash it. So when I got into this position,
and obviously. I was still against it. And the
guys knew that. And I became public enemy number
one, if I'm just being candid about it. I mean,
not everybody in the department was ready to
beat on me, but a good chunk of them were. And
it got really ugly. It got really personal attacks
on social media and stuff like that. But rule
one, if you're going to be the fire chief, you
better have thick skin. So you can't let that,
you know, when everybody was, when I was doing
stuff that they all loved and they were ready
to make a bronze statue of me. You got to hold
that lightly and don't drink that Kool -Aid.
And when they were ready to, you know, say I
was the worst guy ever in the city, you can't
let that bother you either. You just have to.
My whole focus has always been taking care of
them. When I was a bat chief and I would say,
guys, get out, get out, give me a par. They'd
get mad at me. We could have got it. OK, yeah,
whatever. Maybe you could have. But then maybe
you couldn't have. And I'm not going to kneel
down and hand a flag to your wife. So. If you
want to get mad at me because I'm trying to protect
you, get mad at me. And that was my whole point
is it's not that I'm anti -4896 or I don't want
the guys to be happy. Nothing could be further
than the truth. I want them to be healthy, and
it's not a healthy way. And I get some people
are doing it out of necessity, whatever. I'm
not going to debate if that's really what people
believe in their heart. But, again, they're not
following the science. And so we had to get past
that, which that wasn't very hard to do at all.
What I'm going to give the guys a lot of credit
for, James, is I wouldn't know everything I know
now had they not been bringing up wanting to
go to 4896 and beating that drum and turning
it into a really big political issue here in
our city. They did a media campaign. They they
they're professional. I'll give them that. I
mean, they went about it, you know, in a way
they were trying to line their ducks up, but
they didn't have the science on their side. And
all they had is everybody else is doing it. That's
not a good argument. And so it was easy to sell
our elected officials and my manager on, no,
here's the science. But what that led was while
I'm trying to prove about the fatigue, the things
that you know innately, because I've lived the
job and I already know what it's going to do
to you. I had to start getting the science lined
up. So when you start doing scholarly work and
you're looking for articles, you're looking for
podcasts, you're looking, you find stuff like
yours that I tripped onto. The interesting thing.
was I wound up talking to one of our council
members and she goes, have you seen the podcast
with the guy with the funny accent? And she goes,
this 24 -72, that's the way to go. So we had
council members that were doing their own research.
And it all led to, so what I'm going to credit
the guys for is if they hadn't have raised all
the hell that they did to start trying to say
we want 4896, then a lot of this wouldn't have
come to light. You don't know what you don't
know. And so when you really start looking at
it, because it is new here, it's not something
that's prevalent in Texas. And so when you start
looking at all the data, the science, but this
councilwoman. She brought up the fact that this
is going to save us money. She put the two and
two together that fast. And she's like, this
is going to lower our cancer rates. This is going
to lower our workman's comp. This is going to
lower. So morally, it's the right thing to do,
clearly. But if you need a financial reason,
she started putting it together. She's very,
very astute. Her name's Julie Homer. I don't
think she would mind me sharing her name. She's
a very intelligent woman. She does her homework.
She figured out really quick that this was a
good thing. So bringing the guys in and having
the conversation, it was not a hard sell at all.
I mean, my manager and I, and again, he's not
on this call, but I'm telling you, you want to
interview somebody that's just not from a fire
background, but just a super intelligent man
who cares about the employees as well as the
citizens. Mark Isrelson. best boss in the world.
I mean, that's the only reason why I've stayed
in the saddle as long as I have is because I
just love working for the guys. He's a super
ethical man. His dad's a retired FBI officer
for many, many years. And so he grew up around
public safety, but he's got that mindset of taking
care of the troops. And so this was a collaborative
effort. Yes, we as management, I think what makes
this different is we're the ones that reached
out to them and said, hey, come talk to us, and
we'd like to talk about 24 -72. And my boss and
I had conversations, and he's like, you know,
it may take 10 or 12 years, but there's something
I'd like to work toward. And we were talking
one day, and I said, well, what if the guys took
a pay cut, or what if they froze wages for X
number of years? And he's like, that's a conversation
we can have. So the more we were talking about
it behind the scenes here, the more we realized
that there's a way to get there. And so when
we bought them in and we initially talked about
it and we said, you know, we're going to need
meet and confer. Again, this is management. This
is what makes this so unusual. Normally, the
union would be coming to the leadership saying
we'd like to get meet and confer and trying to
win the city over. We're telling them we're going
to need meet and confer. You know, it just worked
out. My legal department, you know, they hired
an attorney that I've worked with before when
I was in Fort Worth. Best guy that I know that
does collective bargaining and so forth and works
for the city. But he's pragmatic. He wants to
not alienate the firefighters. Just a great guy.
And Lowell Denton and his firm. We had this thing
put together. I mean, our negotiations, James,
took one day. We scheduled it and it like started
at 830 in the morning. And I think we were done
by two in the afternoon with a handshake agreement.
And then it was a matter of getting the harder
part was boiling it down to a legal document
that covers everything we had talked about. But
even that process, once we got that done, the
back and forth and the minor changes and the
things that had to happen, you know, the sausage
making was not as ugly as what people would think.
Because again, it was a common goal. Y 'all want
more time off with your families. Y 'all want
long -term better health. We want those same
things for you. Now, how do we get there? And
it can't be that we just print the money because
I can't close a library down. You know, we can't
close a rec center down. You can't raise taxes
on people. I mean, none of those things are going
to be palatable either. So you have to figure
out how can we get there. But again, it starts
with... you know, having a very ethical leadership
from the mayor and the council, my city manager,
just like I said, being a rock star, all those
things I told you that I was given for firefighter
health and wellness. I put that together my first
year here as my strategic plan, like the five
-year plan. He pushed all the chips over to me
in the very first year. He came into my office
one evening and said, hey, me and the manager
are talking and this is what you're going to
get. And I'm like. And oh, by the way, it was
31 new positions. We added two truck companies
and a couple of staffers. And amongst all that
other stuff, it was a $6 million increase in
one year. But they're like, hey, you made your
case. And I said, we needed a training center.
And they said, you'll be on the next bond election
to get a training center built. We've got a world
-class training center now, thanks to the citizens.
So our community has always valued public safety.
I give all of our officers in the police department
and the fire department. immense amount of credit
because they understand the citizens are who
we work for and they deliver service at a level
that few departments deliver i mean the little
things you know if you those guys are buying
groceries for the shift and they see a little
old lady taking her groceries out they'll run
out and put them in her car uh you know they're
they're always going that extra mile here to
do great things and they and they've got that
public capital on their side and so We didn't
have a single person in a city of almost 300
,000 people. This was voted on by the council
last week on Tuesday night. Not a single person
came and spoke out against this. There's always
someone that's going to have opposition. No one
from the community came out and spoke against
this. And if you went back and watched the tape,
it's available online at Plano .gov. Almost every
single council member spoke. And they all spoke
about why this was important to do this and why
it was the right thing to do. And it was a unanimous
vote, eight to zero. That just doesn't happen
in a lot of communities because egos get in the
way. People get their feelings hurt because there
was some sharp elbows or some verbal jabs that
were thrown. And again, if I got my feelings
hurt every time somebody said something bad about
me when I was the fire chief. You know, I'd have
to have counseling for that. You have to grow
thick skin, just like firefighters have to be
thick skinned in the station. You got to let
that stuff go. So, you know, I'm very proud of
our city. I'm proud of our leadership on both
sides. The union president, Brad McCutcheon,
and his team, we were professional. Even if we
weren't in agreeance, we were still professional.
But we got to a point. where we can shake hands
and make this deal work. And it's going to be
a game changer. And my hope is that we're not
the last department in the region that goes to
this. I'm hoping that other city managers, but
I will tell you that my boss, going back to being
a great guy, he's kind of been shunned by some
of his brethren, other city managers. You know,
what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And
to me, it was like, this is the right thing to
do. And again, people say, well, why didn't you
get there sooner? It's like I said before, you
don't know what you don't know. It wasn't something
that was even being talked about. I think the
first time I ever heard of 2472 was three or
four years ago at a Metro Chiefs conference from
the Washington, D .C. Fire Chief, who's a buddy
of mine, John Donnelly. And they've been working,
I think he said, for like 20 years. And that's
something I had not heard of. Heard a lot about
4896. Heard a lot about later start times, but
never about 2472. And then, like I said, when
I started doing research about the detriment
of staying awake for too many hours, it led me
to your website. And I started watching your
podcast, and you're good about saying episode
whatever, and you've got your directory. So I
was able to start going and looking those up.
And if you're willing to come in with an open
mind, James, you're going to get to the same
conclusion. How you get there financially, all
that stuff, that's the sausage making. But if
you with a straight face can look at the data
and come away and say, oh, it's a fad or it's
BS, you're burying your head in the sand because
the science is the science, my friend. And that's
why I reached out to you and told you thank you.
for educating me. You didn't realize you were
doing it at the time, but I was watching your
programs and watching your speakers and reading
everything I could read. And it became evident
that this is the future. And how quickly we can
adapt to it, I don't know, but I hope we can
get there quickly as a profession. Like I said,
I'm going to be leaving government here in four
months. I'm leaving on a high note. I'm glad
that my guys are going to be safe. But I want
this for all firefighters everywhere because
I think it's the way that we need to be operating.
And I think our department will be like a test
bed. And again, there's plans in place to measure
over the years. They've already started laying
out the matrix of how this how they're going
to measure and quantify that this was the right
decision to make with what we think will be lower
heart rates, heart attacks, lower cancer rates,
lower PTSD issues, hopefully less divorces. All
that stuff is going to be tracked. And I believe
that the answer is clear what it's going to lead
to. Well, I mean, I'm so glad that you found
the. The podcast, as did you said, one of the
council members and then Logan and Jaime. I mean,
all these different people from the department
were diving into this. And this is the whole
point of the Behind the Shield podcast is it
is a free library. And this is what drives me
crazy when locally there's so much resistance
because they've had access to it a lot longer.
The word has been going around. But that aside.
What's interesting is you didn't have even the
same financial pull that a lot of the country
does. As you alluded to, you were still able
to hire. You didn't have that mandatory overtime
crisis that we're seeing all over the nation,
which adds yet another couple of layers of financial...
You know, when you have tens, if not hundreds
of millions of dollars in overtime, and you have
the same, you know, in lack of retention, you're
training all these young people, you put them
to school, two, three years later, they're gone.
This is also a huge downstream budget that you
can put in to the recruitment of the fourth shift.
What is really interesting about the way you've
done it, and this is what I'm loving now. is
i'm starting to see the innovation well how do
you go from a 24 48 to a 24 72 with a kelly day
without a kelly day and so people are figuring
it out and that's certainly not from from my
podcast i'm sharing stories like this where people
from departments are telling well hey here were
the challenges we had here's how we got around
it we're considering reciprocity i mean all these
different nuances that i think are just going
to push us even further ahead but One truth has
become very clear. I'd love to kind of get you
again just to dig a little deeper into the five
-year plan that you have. I've heard people say,
well, we're just going to start off by going
to a Kelly day. Now, let's take the average department
that is woefully understaffed, you know, mandatory
overtime. They're already bleeding people. They're
bleeding money. And you're going to take a Kelly
day. So now every third day, you're going to
give someone a day off. That now creates even
more holes in the staffing and recruitment. That
person's going to end up working their Kelly
day and you're going to pay them time and a half
for it. So it fixes nothing. Conversely, though,
when a department says we are going to 2472,
that's a declaration. Here's the matrix. It is
happening. But we're going to take like two years
like Pasco County did, five years like you guys
are doing. Now you've got people already starting
to line up because they're like, yeah, but they
are going to it. They've made a commitment. And
that is the difference, especially when you start
hiring for that six -week Kelly, then that three
-week Kelly. So it's not your people working
those Kellys. It's the new people covering that.
So I think that's a really important distinction.
Can you kind of just take a deeper dive into
the hiring that you're going to do? Well, firstly,
the commitment to the 24 -72, knowing the recruitment,
but then the hiring that you're going to do to
fill, to cover these caddy days and ultimately,
you know, create this 24 -72 four platoon system.
And again, going back to the collaborative side,
the five years was, that's the money side of
it. You know, guys, we can only afford to hire
22 a year. Everything I'm about to say is not
Sam Greif. It's Chief Biggerstaff, Jaime, And
another assistant chief down there who's probably
one of the most brilliant minds I've ever worked
with in my entire life in any profession named
Jeff Moberly. They're the ones that have designed
this along with the association to work it out.
But how it will work is because we don't do Kelly
days. We do FLSA overtime. And so what this is
going to do is they're literally going to hire.
And because we you already have to be certified
firefighter, paramedic and now soon to be firefighter
EMT. If we don't get enough medics, that's that
starts. Look, we're testing this this month.
That class will they will get those processed.
We'll start. They're going to be out. We are
going to have the people hired by March. We'll
have everybody hired and they'll have to do two
classes just due to the sheer size of probably
about 20 in each class, because we've already
got, you know, legacy openings just through attrition,
what we talked about earlier. So. We'll get those
folks hired. And starting in March of 26, coming
up this next spring, is when everybody will start
getting, because we got the people hired, now
everybody gets those six days off throughout
26. And then it's a rolling 12 months, so it's
March to March. So then come March of, and again,
the guys came up with this because they're like,
we got to have time to hire the people and get
them in the field so that we then can have the
days off. As we hire 22 more, we just keep hiring
22 new bodies above and beyond what we needed
the previous year. That's what's leading us to
allowing them to get more and more days off.
So like I said, by the time you get into year
three, and so it's the start of year three. You
got to remember, all this is starting immediately.
So the guys next year are going to get six 24
-hour days off. So every other month, they're
going to get a five -day vacation, essentially.
The next year, they're going to get a five -day
vacation every month of the year, all 12 months
of the year. And then in the third year, they're
going to get 18 five -day vacations. And then
at the very beginning of what we're 36 months
into this, the clock switches and we go to 4
,872. And then throughout the year, they owe
seven days that will be pre -assigned based on
seniority, what your seven days that you're going
to owe. I have no idea how the chief's going
to do that yet as far as I know he's doing it
by seniority. I don't know. Is it going to be
your pull of 48 or is it going to be that you'll
take a day off, come in and work a day and then
take a day off and then, you know, and do that
so that you're not having to pull 48? That would
be my preference, but I'm not a micromanager.
I'm not going to tell them how to do their business.
So I don't really know that component yet, how
they'll do that in that fourth year. But then
after we've been doing this for 48 months, we're
done starting that next beginning of the fifth
year. So it's really just four years to get it
complete. It'll be a pure 2472 because we will
have hired up enough people at that point to
fully create the D shift. And the other factor
that this is kind of life changing for some folks,
too, because the reality is this is going to
create 40 promotions. from bat chiefs, two bat
chiefs a day on duty, to all the captains, all
the lieutenants, the drivers. There's going to
be a lot of folks that this changes their life
financially in a good way. They make rank, and
not only does that make a better quality of life
for the number of years they got left to work,
but then their retirement's going to be based
on that. So, you know, I truly think they've
come up with a good method. Like I said, this
was a... how can we get there you know you just
keep talking it through and uh and we one of
the other things to uh because you know obviously
the contracts public record it's available online
but um we we have a two -year top out so in plano
when you hire in with us when you've been here
24 months you're already at topped out and so
what we said was uh stretch that to a five -year
top out which out of the member cities that we
compare to that the association and management
of greed these are the 10 cities that are going
to be in the pool or one of the 10 so there's
nine others we compare to only one has a five
-year top out all the rest of them are more than
that and so we're stretching from two to five
and that'll only be for new hires anybody that's
a legacy that's already here before october one
they'll still top out in two years anybody that
comes after that will be on a five -year top
out But that's not out of bounds with the industry.
And we're still going to be tied for the best
top out of anybody. There's some that are eight
and nine years. So that poker chip was available.
The FLSA savings, because to your point, you
won't be having to work 56 hours a week. So you're
not going to hit that 53 hour threshold anymore.
That savings, you know, and that's how my boss
looked at it is he called it savings. and he
started calculating he's like you know i'm going
to spend eight nine million dollars over the
next five years no matter what just because of
the way we do raises and so forth and he's like
so really i got a delta of about 10 million dollars
is what i really have to deal with and so that
you know and again it's to him that's a priority
he'll find the 10 million dollars and so with
the council and so with the mayor you know that
old saying about what what's in you'll make time
or you'll make financial availability to what's
important to you. It's what's important to you.
And, you know, this is such an easy decision
and it's such a legacy in Plano that it's always
been about firefighter safety, paramedic safety.
and our police officers. It's always been about
their safety. We don't ever cut corners. We drive
Tahos in the police department across the board.
Everybody drives a Tahoe. Why? They're big. They're
beefy. They're comfortable. They're roomy. They
hold up in a wreck a lot better than a sedan
does. My police chief had come last year at the
budget and said, I need to put in rifle shields.
that are lightweight but can stop, or ours are
old and heavy, and they're just, you know, they're
basically useless. And he's a big man, and his
quote was, it takes a full -grown man and a boy
to carry it. And so it was to the tune of, I
want to say, it's like a quarter of a million
dollars to get everybody a rifle shield. And
we're in our, these are the springtime budget
meetings where you're gnashing to see what you're
going to give this coming October. And my boss
looked up and said, see, you're saying these
will stop bullets and he's like yeah and he goes
we're not waiting until next year to buy those
he looked at the budget director and he said
find the money now and get those things ordered
that's how the priorities are in this city is
that we're going to take care of our fire and
police and so um and we don't apologize for it
and we believe that that's why we're such a vibrant
community is because companies want to come to
a safe city And they know that these white -collar
jobs are not going to relocate here if we don't
have a good, safe city to live in and we don't
have a good school district. So it's building
blocks. But my whole point here is it was a collaborative
effort, but I don't think in a lot of cities
that you can get to the table and do a one -day
negotiation because the egos are too big and
there's too much scar tissue about what happened
yesterday. and not enough concern about what's
going to happen tomorrow and losing sight of
what's really important. And I will tell you
that I've had to give flags at funerals as the
chief. Hands down, the suckiest part of my six
and a half years as the fire chief. was dealing
with, I had three members that were active duty.
One was a line of duty. The other two were active
duty desk in a span of 13 months. That's brutal.
It's brutal on the department. It was brutal
on me. And, you know, there's a brotherhood amongst
five bugles that I guess I didn't really know
existed until I became one. But the way my fellow
chiefs around the Metroplex reached out to me
and like, what do you need? What can we help
you with? Let's go get a cup of coffee. Because
they know you're grieving too as the chief. Even
though I came from the outside and I didn't know
these people legacy years like I would my brethren
in Fort Worth, it still tears your heart out.
It still, you feel this onus to, you want to,
you're like a dad. You want to protect everybody.
And I couldn't take their pain away from them.
They were grieving. All I could do is try to
make the funeral be as respectful as we possibly
could. But it's tough. And when you deal with
the human emotion of what we're going back to,
again, I get most city managers, deputy city
managers aren't going to look at this from the
lens I'm looking at it from because this is not
what they've been doing since they were 18 years
old. Yeah, I'm passionate about it. I'm never
going to apologize because we're going to spend
money to take care of people. You've got to balance
it. I get that. It's the right thing to do for
all the right reasons. And it's an education.
And I'm not faulting everybody out there who's
not been educated yet because a year ago, James,
I wasn't educated. No one had talked to me about
24 -72. When you become educated, now it's a
willful decision to neglect. and not follow through
with a way to get there. And I'm not saying you
got to get there quick. I get it. It can take
a lot of time. But, you know, my boss was sincere
when he looked at the union president and said,
we're going to go to this no matter what. It
may take me 10 or 12 years to work it in under
the current way that we compensate y 'all and
how we do things, but we're going to go to this.
I mean, that was a foregone conclusion in his
mind. Once he became educated. This was an easy
decision as to what to do next. Now it's just
how do you get there? And that's where the firefighters
had to come into the equation and be willing
to give to get. And they were. They were gentlemen
about it. They've been stand up about it. And
when it went to a vote, it passed with 96 % of
the department saying, let's go to this. And
I think they said there was 15 people that voted
against it. And my gut tells me. It was probably
driven by someone who's about to retire in the
next year or two. And they're looking at the
3 % that we get every year and going, well, I'd
rather have that because my muster out pay would
be higher. And would probably be the rationale
for that. And again, I'm not casting stones against
the people that said no, but it's a democracy.
But 96%, that's a mandate. I know that term gets
thrown around lightly. That's a mandate when
you have 96 % saying, let's do this. And I'm
telling you, ran into them at the 9 -11 memorial
last week before last, and smiles, surgeons couldn't
cut off. They were happy. They're excited. They're
proud because Plano is known as being a leader
here in the state and being progressive and doing
things before you have to do them or you're forced
to do them. And this is just that next level
that we've taken it to. So like I said, I just
hope other cities can follow suit and don't try
to come up with excuses of it's a bad idea or
you shouldn't do it. If you're just saying, look,
we don't know how we're going to get there financially,
that's a legitimate thing to say. So how can
you do it? How many years will it take? What
will the other side be willing to give and work
through it? But, you know, as far as trying to
say it's a bad thing or we shouldn't be doing
it, that to me is just a ludicrous argument.
That's, again, not following the science. Yeah.
And I've heard that a lot here. But what's beautiful
to counter that is there, what I've seen, I'll
give credit, for example, Dixon Phillips of PASCO.
I know he's been helping out some of the guys
at your department as well. They spearheaded
it in their own department. And what you're seeing
is not, well, I've got all the secrets and I
want to keep all the best people. You're seeing
like, no, no, no, we figured out how to change
the way that we work to make it proactive, to
attract young recruits again, to fill these vacant
overtime spots, to reduce the mental and physical
health workman's comp claims, to have longevity
in our career. And we want to share it with you.
Gainesville, Pasco, Destin. I mean, all these
departments that are kind of in it now, I've
got to give maximum respect to them. They're
out there helping anyone they can. Bending over
back is Boynton Beach, another one. So this is
what's so amazing to watch. And I know this has
come across your bow of people outside going,
well, now you're just going to be poaching our
best people. And I want to be very clear about
this. The rising tide lifts all ships. You said
about 10 years ago is when you started seeing
recruitment decline. I would say that's pretty
spot on even here. Now, there's a couple of departments
locally here that have always had problems because
they've never changed many things and they've
relied on mandatory overtime for two decades
now. But arguably, most of the country, it was
about a decade ago that we started seeing this
decline. So we're not... And saying, oh, imagine
a fire service where people wanted to work for
us. We were there. You know, your generation
was even more competitive than my generation
when I was testing post 9 -11. So it's just simply
returning to where we were before. And you guys
became the first in Texas. I had someone comment
saying that you weren't, that there was this
other city. They said we were the first in Texas.
But then we gave up the 24 -72 to have four -man
staffing. And that breaks my heart. You made
it worse for your people to have an extra person
on the rig rather than saying, well, the extra
person on the rig should be a requirement for
the service of our citizens. But that shouldn't
come at the expense of our men and women and
their families. That's insane. So as we sit here
now in 2025, you guys became the first one that
I know of in Texas, which I think is incredible.
But I hope that you become a beacon of light,
not a source of envy or competition. But as you've
done in this last hour and a half so far, a blueprint
for how other people can go. Some are going to
be super sought after, well -staffed departments.
Others are going to be the majority, which is
woefully understaffed. But if we create an environment
that causes high performance and high levels
of physical, mental health and longevity, the
young people that are turning away at the moment
are going to circle back and go, you know what?
That does sound like an amazing profession. Just
the way that you guys are working 56 hours, 80
hours of overtime. One of my Anaheim friends
just messaged me that day. He's on day five,
five days straight. Insane, absolutely insane
for health, for performance, everything. So when
we fix what's broken, we will attract these young
people back again. The same as when you were
testing, the same as when I was testing, because
that is the history of the fire service. But
you can't break people and expect us to just
keep lining up and showing up again. The Internet
is the source of information now. And these young
people are understanding that this is not the
best profession as far as the way that we're
worked. And it will come at the expense of their
relationships, of their physical health, the
potential addictions, et cetera, et cetera. When
we fix that, I guarantee you, we'll probably
see an incredible uptick in recruitment for the
entire country. So I hope that departments like
yours are seen as a source of intrigue that people
will humble their egos and say, how did you do
it? Can you tell us? We'll try and figure out
how we can make this apply to ours. And then
soon the state of Texas will see the kind of
tidal wave that we're seeing here in Florida.
And I applaud you guys, like I said. And I do
think it will happen because we are a copycat
industry. And I love that. I use that a lot about
rising tide raises all ships. But you think about
it, there's a tragedy that happens in the fire
service somewhere else in the country. And we
don't think anything about putting a contingent
of people on an airplane with their dress blues
to go attend the service for people we've never
met and we don't know. So why the heck would
we not share what we know? Let's give them their
flowers before they pass away. If we have an
opportunity to help people, I mean, that's what
it's all about. I've shared the contract with
several of my brethren here in the Metroplex
that have reached out and wanted to see it and
talk about how we're going to get there. And
I'll be candid. We want everybody to be honored
eventually. There's no question about that. But
there is a source of pride about being the leaders
and stepping out and saying, you know, once again,
this is what we're known for doing is being the
leaders and trying to make things better. And,
you know, we did something two years ago. And
again, it goes back to the city's mentality.
But my boss, I keep coming back to him because
let's just be people don't know how the real
world works. If it doesn't get out of the city
manager's office, it's not going to get out.
That's where the buck stops. And he or she decides
what what filters out to the council. And granted,
you have associations and you have bad back doors
and you have other ways in which you can work
it. And again. You're never going to hear anything
negative. In full disclosure, I was the PAC president
for local 440 in Fort Worth for several years,
and that was my job, was to make sure the message
got to the council that was being filtered out
of the city manager's office. But we did something
revolutionary that I had not heard of another
department doing. We bought several new fire
engines, and we leased them, and they're reserves.
We just bought straight off the line. uh trucks
uh that just came uh like the stock i call it
the chevy impalas but we bought chevy impalas
off the line and said these are going to go into
the reserve pool because what happens how many
times in your career have you went and got on
an old dog that's a reserve for a reason and
then it breaks down and now you're having to
get on another truck and so we said let's reverse
the paradigm let's buy brand spanking new trucks
they won't be the cadillac models that we spec
for for normal But they'll be bulletproof, you
know, dependable. And so far, everybody has absolutely
loved them. But that's just that flipping that
paradigm and saying instead of pumping money
into an old thing that's dying and there's a
reason it got taken out of service to begin with,
let's buy something that's dependable. But, yeah,
it's not the Mercedes -Benz, but it's a dependable
Chevy. It's going to get you there. And let that
be your reserve apparatus. And so those are the
kind of things that we do that we're hoping.
It catches on, but we take pride in saying we're
the first ones to jump out there and do it. And
so, yeah, my expectation and my hope is, is that
by the time we have finished implementing 2472
here in Plano, that most of the Metroplex departments
have figured out a way and they're on a glide
path to do the same thing and are in the process
of doing it, you know, and it becomes a priority.
But I'm just going to be somewhat. brusque in
my comments but i will tell you that there's
a belief out there amongst some folks that are
in leadership positions that it's like well it's
just as like mcdonald's we'll just find another
teenager to take the job and uh they're they're
not looking at it like no this is these people
are commodities they're they're people that are
on your worst day is when you're going to meet
them and and that's why i always used to tell
the guys about and and why I was so proud of
them for the way they treat the community, every
interaction, every time. And most of their interactions
just come, someone's changing a tire for someone
on the side of the road. They're just doing these
nice deeds all the time because they get that
majority of our citizenry will never meet them.
They may meet them, all right, but they're unconscious
when they meet them. So every chance you get
to impact the public in a positive way, our guys
have got a history of doing that. No chief has
to browbeat that into them. It's ingrained in
them and they hold each other accountable. I
used to say the secret sauce for being a successful
chief in Plano, Texas wasn't my white shirts.
It was my station officers because no one's there
at two in the morning to see if they're doing
what they're supposed to be doing or not. But
the feedback was clear to me that they were doing
what they were supposed to do. They're the backbone
of the department because they hold that high
standard amongst themselves and their crews.
And again, I think that collaborative mentality
of they know why we're here. We know why they're
here. We try to support them. When we hit that
rough spot in the road over 4896, it was a rough
spot in the road. It's like a marriage, but it
was never going to be, well, I hate you or, you
know, we're going to work through it. were the
ones that reached out and said, I posted on my
Facebook shortly after the council told the association
no to 4896, essentially. I posted something to
the effect of, you know, I did because they kept
telling me to follow the science is what a lot
of the guys were telling me. And I was getting
hate mail from departments all over the nation
because I was the barrier to 4896. But what I
will say is that at the end of the day, Going
to that table and being able to have that conversation
was rooted in the fact that we've always been
able to get along with one another. And you don't
let one event overshadow the next. Don't try
to get even. You're not keeping score. It's about
just how we're going to move the ball. And we
were able to come together and have that conversation.
And there was enough trust. that we would get
there. And like I said, the association, I applaud
them because they came to the table. They were
willing to listen. They understood the assignment.
And then they went out and them and the leadership,
the fire chief and Jaime and Jeff, the two assistant
chiefs, they worked their tails off visiting
the stations, answering people's questions, explaining
how it would work, how the format would work.
Me and Mark Isrelson didn't figure out the formula.
We figured out the math. What can you afford
to do over the next several years? But then how
to implement it and how to make all that stuff
work, that's all the folks down the street that
have done all that. I mean, I have mementos in
my office, but that white chief's helmet right
there is just that. It's history. I'm not the
chief. I don't play one on TV anymore. I've said
in my heart I'm always going to be a firefighter.
But I don't in any way try to tell them how to
run their railroad. The only thing I ever was
like no one that I can't support was 4896. And
again, it was never, ever about not wanting to
give the guys something that they were wanting
or what they felt was a better quality of life.
It was about their safety and the safety of the
people that I serve because I'm going to be out
of service here in a few months. But I've never.
It sounds corny, but I always took my charge
of serving the citizens seriously. I believe
in what the young me who raised my right hand
and took an oath said all those years ago. And
I think it's imperative that we take care of
our people, both the public and our employees.
And I think this is just another example, like
I said, of this right here instead of this. You'll
get so much more done when you do this. And city
managers, Like I said, I get I'm an albatross.
My boss jokes all the time. I'm like the bull
in the china closet amongst my peers even because
I come into it from a completely different lens.
I didn't come up wearing a shirt and tie like
this. I did not come up in an arena like that
I'm in today. I have a master's in public administration,
but I promise you I didn't earn that to get into
this chair. I knew I was going to be a fire chief
someday, and I wanted to be able to. speak the
lingo of what city managers and how they thought
so that I could get a bigger chunk of pie for
the fire department in full disclosure. It was
never about coming into this arena, but it's
been very rewarding. I'm glad that I got to play
a small part in bringing this to fruition, and
I'm going to enjoy sitting on the sidelines as
a citizen of Plano and watching these guys get
this schedule. I know it'll be successful. I
know that the chief and the team down there,
he's got two assistants. You've talked to Jaime.
When I tell you those guys could be starting
quarterbacks for any team in the league that
quick, they're awesome. He's got a super, super
good group around him. The union's professional.
A lot of what we were able to accomplish through
the years is because of the associations. relationship
with council and being able to make sure that
that uh you know when we needed big ticket items
that the wine and and the yeah you know there
was never uh it was never more about what we
need five percent instead of three percent and
we're willing to give up building a training
center to get that that was never the guys have
always put a value on the equipment the training
they get it and they're going to be ambassadors
for 24 72 i truly believe they will And like
I said, I'm just, my prayer is that other departments
will catch on and that we'll, I'm wanting Texas
to be the next Florida where it just starts,
you know, domino effect. And throughout our country,
because I'm telling you, our West Coast brothers,
and I know you know this, James, because you've
been doing this a lot longer than I have. And
this is your passion, studying this. But those
guys on the West Coast, man. They're getting
beat to death out there. I mean, those are busy,
busy departments. And my guys, you know, and
people that are proponents of 4896 will use that
as the excuse of why we should go to it. Well,
they're busier than we are. Well, that's not
a reason to do it. You know, I get it. You know,
they don't want to drive. We all tend to. I lived
an hour out of the city the whole time I worked
in Fort Worth for the most part. So I had that
two -hour windshield time a day. So I get why
people, they don't want to have to come to work
as many days, but you got to think about what's
going to happen when you get there and what your
body's going to go through. And again, I'm preaching
to the choir, but you're 20, 24, 25 years. How
many years are you into the service now? Well,
I started in 2004. my first job, Hialeah. But
then I transitioned out seven years ago. So,
but I mean, I arguably am still in the service,
just not getting paid because I'm trying to fight
for it now for free. Oh, I did not realize that.
So you're not active duty anymore. No, I came
at a crossroads after rehabbing, meniscus surgery,
getting back to full duty. a lot of organizational
toxicity in that particular place and realized
at that moment that I was having more of an impact
with the podcast than simply running one call
at a time. So kind of took a leap of faith, cashed
out my pension, gave myself a salary for a year
and a half and did this full time. So that was
seven years ago now. Well, God bless you because
what you're doing is making a difference. Like
I said, it's educating people, myself included.
Like I said, this is something that, you know,
Jaime, from what I understand on the back end,
has been a big proponent of this all along. But
it wasn't coming to us. No one was coming to
us saying we need 2472. It was all about 4896.
And so that conversation, though, has led us
to where we are today. So that's why, again,
I try to always find the bright spots and stuff.
And rather than get upset about what went on
during that. you know a disagreement over 4896
and which path we should go the silver lining
is is that create that kicked off the education
for me for for my boss mark israelson for the
council uh mayor muns everybody started learning
more because we were sharing that information
and so yes it is unusual for us to be the one
that reach out and go hey why why didn't y 'all
bring this to us and they were honest they were
like well we just assumed that there was no way
that financially was feasible it's like well
it is, we got to figure out how to get there,
but we can do this. And so, uh, I think it's
imperative that you have that type of, of willingness
to just come together, uh, shared goal. Uh, and
if, if you start with the, what do we have in
common and how can we get there? Then, then it's
very doable, but buddy, I could talk to you all
day, but I got another appointment that I've
got to butt up against. So, uh, is there anything
that you wanted to ask before we, uh, say our
goodbyes? I'm going to put something in very
quickly. So the studies, the science of the 4896
is a fallacy. Firstly, the question is why was,
as you mentioned, the whole Northeast works 42
hours a week. Why was there never a study comparing
that to the 56 hour work week? Secondly, the
study that was done, and I'm not poo -pooing
the study, but the way it was interpreted, they
studied a fire department, Joel Billings, this
was, that run less than one call a night. So
firstly, it's not actually mirroring most departments.
Secondly, the takeaway was that second shift
when you've slept all night, you woke up in a
fire station. So you didn't have the sleep deprivation
of starting at 630 in the morning. So what does
that really show? The changing the start time
is the real science in that in the first place.
Secondly, just to add this as well, you're talking
about being in the church and handing the flags.
When you don't know any better than you think
that you're doing the right thing, you know,
you're given a buy on this. But if you are now
aware of the chronic overwork and all the diseases
and mental health problems that that's causing
and accidents, you know, driving home, all these
things, and you still continue to do it the way
you do it. And then you have the audacity to
speak at the funerals as well. That's where I
say shame on you. Once you have this knowledge
and you understand that this is a solution that
must be addressed. you have to become part of
the problem. And that sounds harsh, but it's
true. If you just keep going to the funerals
and refuse to actually be part of the solution,
which sadly has happened, you know, the place
where I live, the firefighters that protect me,
that's where I'm disgusted at the lack of courage.
This requires courage. If you're a city manager,
union president, a chief, or simply just someone
in the station, and you're pushing against a
healthier work week that puts you home with your
family more frequently, It's, you know, that
now you're really just adding fertilizer to the
problem. So this is where it's an all call for
courage, for humility. If we truly want to make
a difference in all the different ways that we
lose firefighters, that we lose their family
members, we have to put this front and center.
What I said earlier is sometimes you just have
an aha moment. It's like an epiphany as you get
educated and you learn about stuff. Another fallacy,
in my opinion, has been I'm not saying that,
yes, we have more plastics than we used to have.
I get that. But it's not like it just got invented
yesterday. And so lightweight construction, all
the things that are killing us. But the reality
is we have less fires than we used to have. You
know, we just don't have them like we did before.
Our building codes have gotten better. You know,
you don't see two and three story apartments
in Plano that aren't sprinkler. All of our stuff
is sprinkler. So, but yet our heart attacks aren't
going down. Our cancer rates aren't going down.
And you're thinking, how is it that I'm having
less exposure, but yet, and that's why I said
it's the aha moment is when you start really
reading the studies and you go, well, hell, sleep
deprivation causes cancer? Who knew? I mean,
obviously doctors and stuff knew, but I didn't
realize until I really started doing the research.
And again, What drove my decision? You know,
why was I so against it? Because I did the job.
Because I know better. I know what my body was
like after I got off a 24 -hour shift. And I
could handle the 24. But a 48 at my station,
you know, yes, we have some stations. And full
disclosure, and most cities do, including even
Big Fort Worth, that, yeah, after two days, you'd
have to go wake the guys up and tell them, hey,
you don't have to go home, but you can't stay
here, you know. But that's – they're the exception.
The guys that are constantly – and this fallacy
of, well, the guys will self -manage, I call
BS on that. No, they won't. They will not. They
will not say, Station 13, you had a hell of a
bad day. I looked at your call volume. You guys
were up three times after midnight last night.
Pack all your stuff. You're going to Station
1. and call station one's crew who didn't turn
a wheel and tell them you're going to 13th. We
both know what that looks like in the real world.
And that's where I guess I would get my feathers
ruffled is when the guys would act like, well,
you don't know what you're talking about. You
don't know what it's like. It's like, come on.
I was not, again, I was born on a fire truck,
not in an office. And so, and I didn't work at
a slow station. I mean, my record is my record
and anybody can see where I work. I was Battalion
4. If I was in operations, I was in Battalion
4 in Fort Worth, which that's a very busy battalion,
and I was at two of the hottest stations you
can be at. So it's nonsense to think that, like
I said, you have to get past the rhetoric. Don't
get your feelings hurt because people disagree
with you. But you've got to just keep bringing
them back. And I feel fairly confident that today,
as we've said here, the majority of plano fire
rescue now hopefully realizes that uh my my entire
belief and why and i used to tell them i get
it why y 'all want it but there's nothing in
it for mrs smith she's not getting what she's
paying for i get you guys only want to drive
in from two and a half hours away five times
a month instead of ten times a month i understand
that but The people that pay our salary, there's
nothing in this from them. They're not going
to get a fresh EMT paramedic firefighter. They're
not going to get the best product. And you're
not going to have the best long -term health.
And just as I tried to explain to them is when
I was at BC and my job was to say, everybody
out, we're going defensive. That was my job to
keep them protected from themselves because they're
hard charging. And that's what we really want.
We want firefighters that are going to run into
danger. But someone's got to be the designated
adult to go, you've had enough, it's time to
come out. Or, you know, that war horse that tries
to put the third bottle on and you're like, uh
-uh, you're in timeout. You're not putting a
third bottle on your back. You're done. And,
you know, you have to be that person that says
this is the right thing and take care of your
people. And I'm hoping that now that we've got
this all behind us, you know, that there's a
lot of goodwill in the air. I'm hoping that the
folks that were so passionate about 4896, I'm
hoping that they look at this as it's an unanswered
prayer that we didn't go to it. Because, yeah,
I'm sure had I not been, if I'd have told my
boss, boss, I think this is worth a trial. We
did have some council members at the time. We've
had an election since then, but we had some council
members that were in favor of a trial. And it
wouldn't have been a trial. We know what that's
like. You don't claw it back. But they've been
like, OK, well, now we're doing what everybody
else in the Metroplex is doing. We're on 4896.
Everybody's happy and we're going down and we're
in denial about what it's really doing long term
and what it's doing to those folks. And at the
end of the day, if everybody's on 4896, your
recruitment issue is still going to be your recruitment.
You know, it's still is that decline going down?
And, you know, so. Again, I agree with you. I
mean, I could lay my head at night with a clear
conscience. But again, I want to say that the
takeaway that I would have for anybody that says,
well, how did you really do it? It starts with
collaboration, but it starts with having a magnificent
city manager who I'm not trying to put air in
the guy's tires. I'm out of here in four months.
So it's not like I'm sucking up. he's just a
great man and he he has a great moral compass
a good north star and he's always tried to do
the right things for people and and for for this
he balances the citizens needs and the employees
needs with the resources available and he's got
a council and a mayor that buy into that and
that's kind of the secret sauce i guess is if
there you have to have some building foundational
blocks if you're going to have collaboration
and and it starts with Don't let 24 -7, I mean,
I guess 24 -7 would be the kickoff for good relations.
But I would hope that that's not, that there
would be that mentality. And, you know, you read
so many stories about these contracts and the
fighting, the back and the forth, and just the
venom and everything that goes. And nobody's
winning in a thing like that. Nobody is winning.
You know, what I would say to my fellow city
management people out there in the world is get
your thick skin and don't get mad about what
happened because they went around you on a council
issue a year ago or whatever. Get past that.
This is about the right thing for the right reason
and taking care of people. So, you know, that's
my parting message is we owe it to our citizens,
a fresh firefighter, a fresh paramedic. When
you get on an airplane, you have an expectation
that that pilot is going to be awake for the
flight and that they're dialed in. As a taxpayer,
I want that fresh firefighter coming to me on
their best. And if I'm that firefighter, I want
to know that my employer has my back and they're
going to take care of me. And when I used to
interview folks in their final interview, I would
literally tell them. We're both here for the
same reason. But my job, your job is to go protect
the citizens' asses. My job is to protect your
ass. That's what my job is as a fire chief, is
to keep my people trained, equipped, well -fed,
so to speak. In every respect, I've got to take
care of them. I'm not going to go kick a door
as the fire chief. That's just not going to happen.
they are and so my job is to protect them and
then they can go take care of the public and
this is just the next level of that it's just
trying to support and take care of them but i'm
just proud i work for an organization that that
understands that collaboration is the way you're
going to make things happen and that we were
able to come to a table but i will tell you even
i was shocked that we got done in one day of
negotiation i never expected it to go that fast
I figured we'd get there, but it would be a month
or two of several meetings back and forth. I
never dreamed we'd wrap it up in one day. But
Brad, the union president, he didn't let any
past issues cloud the goal. We didn't let anything
cloud the goal. We just let's come together and
let's get this done, guys. And so anyway, bless
you, brother. Thank you for letting me come on
the podcast. Invite me on. It's been a pleasure.
And, you know, we'll have to do a check back
and see how things are going in a year or so.
But anyway, I'll be following you from afar.
But you take care of my friend.