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of the Behind the Shield podcast. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Geering, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome back onto the show
surfer and the man behind Surfers Not Street
Children, Tom Hewitt. Now, if you haven't heard
my first conversation with Tom, it is episode
251, and I highly recommend you listen to that
first. In the second conversation, we discuss
a host of topics, from the impact of the COVID
pandemic on the children in that region, some
encouraging signs when it comes to the AIDS epidemic,
some beautiful success stories from their program,
including Indy, a high -level female surfer,
and so much more. Now, before we get to this
incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app
you listen to this on. Subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,100
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with
that being said, I welcome back onto the show
Tom Hewitt. Enjoy. Well, Tom, I want to say thank
you so much for taking the time and coming back
onto the Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh,
it's great to be back. Good to see you, James.
So the last time we sat down, which blew both
of our minds before we hit record, was November
2019. It does not seem that long ago. That being
said, that was a very pertinent time for the
planet because that was only a few short months
before the pandemic hit. So I think a good kind
of icebreaker would be What was that experience
through your eyes? I mean, obviously, you've
got your roots in South Africa. You also, you
know, are British. And then how did that affect,
you know, Surfers Not Street Children and the
children themselves? Yeah, well, the pandemic
period was, I think, for all sort of nonprofits,
it was a pretty scary time. I was actually in
South Africa as it was all happening. And we've
got programs in both South Africa and Mozambique.
And each country was handling things just a little
bit differently. And we assume that whatever
South Africa does, Mozambique will do sort of
a couple of weeks later. So in South Africa,
we could see sort of the writing on the wall
that the borders were going to be closed. We
didn't really know at the time. what was coming
i was quite you know i had been in sierra leone
during ebola so i was looking at the like the
stats and saying what you know this is like that's
the risk it's not going to be much i really didn't
think it would be a very big deal and um and
so but but as things looked as if there was going
to be closures i um i was just preparing the
staff in south africa and then i realized that
i actually needed to get across the border to
mozambique and go up there and work with the
staff there you know just in case and actually
i i was with my son in mozambique first and my
son siandra i left him in mozambique with with
my friends and um went back to south africa we
did some prep stuff and then i saw they were
closing the border so i thought oh man i can't
leave my son in Mozambique during the pandemic.
We didn't know how long it was going to be, but
I raced across the border and was working with
them there. And then that actually closed down
quickly. We thought we'd have a couple of weeks,
but it was about four days. And actually by then,
I actually jumped on a plane to the UK because
South Africa was closed. I couldn't get back
in. So I got out. I spent the pandemic, the first
lockdown in the UK, but obviously managing what
was happening in South Africa with the local
team and managing with the local team in Mozambique.
It was a crazy time, not least of all because
we just didn't really know what was going on.
We didn't know who to believe. We didn't understand
what was happening. So obviously on the one level,
we wanted to be as safe as possible. On the other
hand, it was a terrible time for... trying to
maintain sort of income into the organization.
So the first thing we did was to chat with one
or two donors of ours who are high net worth
and just say, look, you know, if the shit hits
the fan, will you be there for us? We don't know.
how this is going to play. And a couple of people
did say, hey, listen, just get in touch if you
need it. And so we actually made it through.
And it was a tricky time because, you know, we
had to adapt all of our programs. I mean, how
do you run programs for the most marginalized
in really difficult areas in South Africa if
you can't actually meet together? So it presented
huge problems for us as an organization. But
we worked closely along the guidelines and we
actually kept our programs running throughout
the pandemic and versions of our program. But
it was, yeah, it was a horrendous time, I suppose,
for many people. But as an NGO, as a nonprofit,
it was a really tricky time. But we survived
it. And I say survived because we didn't sort
of have a... blowing up of income um but we we
did certainly uh we we got through well i know
obviously how tight it was in the uk until that
christmas party when everything magically opened
up again how what was it as far as south africa
and mozambique what were the the children themselves
experiencing as far as the regulations and lockdowns
there lockdown was really strict in south africa
and in mozambique in fact um there was no surfing
allowed You know, people weren't allowed on beaches.
And when we look back at it, we think, man, that's
crazy with what we know. It's like, wow, probably
the safest place you could have been was in the
ocean or on the beach or outdoors, you know.
So, you know, with hindsight, we look back at
it and we think, wow, that was a nuts period.
But it was very strict. And the guidelines were,
you know, such that you could go to the shops,
you could pick up. supplies but you're really
limited on on what uh recreational activities
you can do and the police would get involved
in fact our um the director of our program in
mozambique was arrested for surfing uh which
just seems so nuts insane and also the the irony
is that the kids we work with live in these really
overcrowded areas downtown areas so actually
if you the more time the kids would spend on
the beach and in you know surfing and stuff would
be way healthier again with hindsight and well
we believed it at the time but the rules were
set um so it's really different in south africa
i'm talking specifically about that first lockdown
um i i went back to south africa after the first
lockdown i managed to get back um straight after
that and check in with everybody and spend some
time back um back there uk was weird i mean i
you know i just worked and sort of in the daytime
I was on my laptop as if I was in South Africa,
but we could surf. So it was a crazy sort of
empty surf like moment, which was kind of weird
looking back on as well. But yeah, it was hard
for the kids and obviously hard for them to process,
you know, these types of things as it was for
even for adults as well. So what was the impact
on the children? I've had so many conversations
recently, and I always revisit this if we haven't
spoken since that time, because after this concluded,
I don't know if it was the same in South Africa,
but certainly in the UK, the US, it's like, well,
let's just not talk about that anymore. When
anything else, if you and I are working for a
company and we made a horrendous error that cost
lives and money, we probably wouldn't be working
there anymore, no matter learning from what we
did wrong. The ripple effect, for example, on
the mental health side, which I know is a big
part of what you do with the children. What was
the damage that was done by some of these poor
choices? Well, certainly in the South African
context, it disrupted the kids' education quite
profoundly. And it had one major impact on us
as a charity in relation to the kids was that
we've always provided a nutrition program. because
the kids are unable to, some of the kids are
unable to, their families are unable to provide
nutritional food for them. And so we at least
had one nutrition meal per day just to make sure
they're getting really healthy stuff. And during
that time, even the meager income that some of
their families had just dried up. So for the
poorest of the poor, suddenly you couldn't, there
was no way you could even find meager income.
even such as begging, you know, right at the
bottom of it. So we then had to expand our nutrition
program, which was a massive cost. So when we
were trying to sort of bring costs down because
of income not coming in, we suddenly had to start
a whole new sort of chapter, this expanded nutrition
program. And, you know, we've got 130 kids in
the program. And with our nutrition program and
food parcels and all these things, we're feeding.
much more than that because we're feeding the
siblings of those kids, sometimes the parents
as well. So these are pretty major. And you could
see that the kids just weren't getting the interactions
that they used to get because part of what we
do is ensure that every child is back in school.
And that's a really major part of the program
because, you know, if you're not in school and
you're living around these downtown streets areas,
you will become part of street life. and our
program is a diversion from street life and in
many cases a rescue from street life but um you
know during that time there wasn't really much
of a plan for those living in these impoverished
areas so for example the sort of the so -called
downtown shelters which are not great places
at all so by not going to school the kids were
hanging out all day at these so -called shelters
so we were fighting to say well you know way
better for them to be with us um to come to our
program than be you know, caught up in street
life. So, yeah, it was a crazy time and had massive
detrimental effect on the kids that we could
really sort of tangibly see that, you know, missing
out on education, not just academically, but
also the interactions of being around other kids
that aren't living in their sort of the shelter
that they're living in or on the streets in some
cases was a massive gap in their lives. One thing
I've heard from some of the psychologists, and
this is heartbreaking, this is in the US and
the UK, is the schools a lot of times were where
outcries would happen, where children would say
that there was something devious going on at
home, whether it was sexual abuse or whatever
it was. And now they didn't have the ability
to report because they weren't in school. So
as they came back, a lot of that had been buried
down as well. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a...
It happened in many, many communities around
the world and certainly in our community. I mean,
the very reason we have the program as a diversion
program is because if those kids are in those
environments all day, all night, the worst that
you can imagine will happen to them. That is
what our program is about. And although we don't
split up families, we do ensure that they're
in safe environments when they're with their
families. But during the day. you know anything
can happen and so the more they're in the program
the less they're around the streets and and that
was really hampered during that time it was at
one stage actually difficult for us to even run
our programs that we didn't know if we were you
know running things according to the law at that
stage it was so complicated but also there's
a level of chaos in the area that we operate
anyway so you know we we managed to carry on
doing our work. And there were some emergency
programs such as ours that were allowed to continue.
So I think a blind eye was shown. We just did
the best we could during that time. But undoubtedly,
there have been effects, certainly in terms of,
as I mentioned, the kids' education, access to
people who aren't in that immediate bubble of
theirs. And yeah, that's the other thing. We
just don't really... We're not able to really
comprehend what abuses kids were exposed to because
there was just more downtime in those really
overcrowded areas. What were you seeing as far
as actual deaths in South Africa and Mozambique
from COVID specifically? Yeah, look, I didn't
see much, to be honest. And one of the... I'm
kind of... I'm kind of angry about COVID, if
I'm to be honest with you, about how it all went
down. And exactly what you said earlier, that
there isn't sort of a truth and reconciliation
commission afterwards to sort of sit down and
say, what was real? What wasn't real? What was
manipulated? Where did corporations, governments
overstep? I think there's so many things that
it should be absolutely okay to talk about. Why
weren't we allowed to suggest things like herd
immunity? You know, why were certain things dirty
words? So I'm kind of like in a, you know, I
sit definitely politically much more left. But
on this one, on COVID, what scares me is sort
of how authoritarian it was. And that would be,
and I do feel really angry about many responses
to COVID. Yeah, I think just remind me what the
original question was. I got off on a tangent.
That's okay. Just the actual impact that you
saw, the deaths from COVID specifically. So the
death, yeah. I didn't see much. I did have two
friends who passed away during that time. Both
definitely had underlying symptoms, diseases.
Both were overweight. So there were two people
that I knew. passed away during that time. I
don't know. I assume they had COVID. I don't
know if they would have passed away at some stage
with or without it. I just don't know. But that's
what I knew. So here's what I found really interesting.
When it first started, and I don't doubt that
there was such a thing as COVID. I'm not suggesting
for a minute there wasn't. But when COVID first
happened, the biggest panic that we had Now,
I worked with street kids during the HIV AIDS
crisis. And Durban or KZN was the epicenter of
Africa's HIV AIDS crisis. So I worked with the
homeless kids during that time. So we saw death
during that. And the biggest fear was that COVID
was going to basically attack those with HIV,
that their immune systems would be less and couldn't
put up with it. absolutely nothing to suggest
that it had any impact whatsoever. And I'm not
saying that from a knowledgeable scientific perspective,
simply from knowing many, many, many people,
adults and children with HIV in South Africa,
and seeing absolutely no discernible, no difference,
and certainly no deaths that could be attributed
to that with the people. that are in my sphere
and that that is still you know this the number
of people in our region with hiv the aids is
still high that being said aside from you know
hiv or aids as a whole south africa mozambique
what is the level of obesity there compared to
the us the uk it's quite high obesity is high
in south africa and it's because uh sugar and
carbohydrates are so staple. And also a lot of
people are poor, so they're eating what they
can afford to eat. And so sugary snacks, sugary
drinks, complex carbohydrates, that's what's
available. That's what's cheap. And so South
Africa is a high level of obesity. And I have
heard that... And lots of people did die who
were obese during that time in South Africa.
I just don't have any knowledge on it myself
outside of reading stuff. Well, this is what
I was saying. We were talking before we hit record.
I try and stand in the middle and gather as many
normal people as possible when I have my conversations.
During COVID, you know, one thing was terminating
doctors, nurses, firefighters, paramedics, police
officers, et cetera, because they wouldn't take
the vaccine. is wrong, hands down. And as time
went on and we saw the efficacy became less and
less and less compared to what they said it was,
that became even more and more of a truth. But
regardless, people were fine with these people
being on the front line with barely any PPE,
with no vaccinations. And then all of a sudden,
those same people were murderers now. So that
was one where I held my ground and had people
on the show and said, this is disgusting. This
shouldn't be happening. But another one. which
again, heresy, James Gearing, was the whole comorbidity
conversation. And it was very simple. Whether
you decided that the vaccine was the holy grail
of medicine or whether this whole thing was a
Chinese conspiracy, the middle ground was the
healthier you make the nation, the higher chance
people have of surviving whatever this thing
is. And so if you choose to have a vaccine where
you've got to have a healthy immunoresponse to
that vaccine to build your immune system to then...
stave off this virus if you choose not to have
a vaccine you need a healthy immune system to
stave off the virus unprotected so working on
the the physical health the mental health of
the population became the absolute truth in my
opinion but again you know what you saw was all
the things that should have happened were demonized
and instead people were told stay in your home
don't see your friends and family deliver fast
food and alcohol to your house, binge watch the
tiger King. And we'll tell you when you can come
out versus go to the gyms, go to the beaches,
surf, get sunshine, hang out with people, but
don't lick each other's faces and don't go see
a, you know, 200 year old grandmother or, you
know what I mean? There was just so many common
sense things that were completely disregarded.
And it was such a disservice to. the gyms, the
organizations like yours, that truly were actually
making people more resistant to this virus by
increasing their activity level, improving their
mental health, and even the vitamin D element
that seems to be pretty prominent now, getting
sunshine. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that,
like I said, I wish there was some sort of truth
and reconciliation. commission over it and not
to string people up, but rather so we don't make
these mistakes again. Because like I said, I'm
not debating that there wasn't such a thing as
COVID, of course. I'm not even debating whether
it was dangerous or not. Let's assume it was.
Where I take issue is what I think was a lot
of opportunism around it. That's certainly one
thing that really bothers me. And also just...
you know, as you mentioned, not being able to
say certain things or being strung up for saying,
I really do believe in freedom of speech. We
really should be able to say what we believe.
We should be able to ask questions. We should
be able to campaign on things. We should be able
to disagree. And during that time, I really feel
that if you said the wrong thing, you were kind
of ostracized. And that's a problem to me because
that's an authoritarian. And my worry is that
the pandemic period enabled sort of a shift towards
authoritarianism, you know, but based on things
being in our best interest, safety, you know,
keeping safe. That worries me because, you know,
when things die down, they don't repeal those
sort of changes. They keep them in play for whatever
the next thing is, because they're actually,
you know, useful to people in power. so i yeah
i just think that there should be a way of looking
back on it and and really having some you know
way of saying that was wrong that was right because
right now we look at what's going on now i mean
the vaccines half the vaccines are off the market
you know who would know if i'm not saying good
or bad i don't know if they're even a good thing
i just don't know but if we had some sort of
uh you know really in -depth um you know truth
and reconciliation commission around it um maybe
we could and maybe we would be a little bit wiser
um i guess the question is you know for some
people it was a very lucrative time so you know
there's powers at play yeah i mean for people
that you know one way or the other the bottom
line is america is 70 obese or overweight so
if it was about health it was about benefiting
the people we would have seen initiatives during
COVID that would change that, you know, bolstering
local farmers to create organic food, putting
real food back in our schools, bolstering PE
programs, pedestrianizing downtowns, et cetera,
et cetera. None of that happened. So this is
the thing, you know, and even like, you know,
I've had people on here that have been in ICUs
full of people dying of COVID. I've had first
responders in LA talking about, you know, just
slinging bodies left, right, and center. But
then I've also had Tom Beaver from BeaverFit
who set up one of the, makeshift morgues in london
that never even got touched it was they took
it down again it was never even used you know
so and people that were pulled in to respond
that had to go looking for covid patients because
their their ward was empty so it's just you know
of course there were hot spots but what's the
underlying issue of those people and if it wasn't
truly covid that killed them well then great
there's an opportunity to find out well what
were these underlying conditions that people
were dying from but if you if it's you know vaccines
and masks and then that's it no conversation
then you never cared about the people it wasn't
about the nation's health at all well exactly
and i think it speaks to an even bigger question
is what are our what are our goals as a society
you know and especially when you look at things
like big pharma what's the goals is the goals
to make money or is the goal which necessitates
people being ill or is the goal to give people
better lives which would be much better if focused
on looking at being preemptive, like healthy
lifestyles. If we look at the type of food that's
being promoted, the big food, if you look at
what's on the shelves at the moment, it's astounding.
I'm not just saying in South Africa or in the
UK or the US. Most places, there are aisles and
aisles of just horrendous food that doesn't really
do you any justice in the long run. That type
of stuff could really change. I mean, we could
transform. I mean, gyms and exercise and sunlight
and all these things that we're now finding out
are, you know, what we've known for a while.
But if you combine all these things together,
there'd be such less need to rely on popping
pills, you know, basically. So I think that the
response to COVID was enlightening in many ways
because I think it points towards... a societal
problem with these big corporations. Yeah. I
think what we're seeing here in America now as
well, it's funny, as you get, you know, further
and further towards extremism in each side of
these parties, it becomes a circle and you realize
that the left and the right are actually touching.
It's alarming, especially like I mentioned that
I sort of sit on the left. In the last few years,
I've actually found myself thinking, wow, do
I agree with this person? Like, I really like
this person now. And that person would be sort
of diametrically opposed to me sort of historically,
politically. And then I'm thinking, yeah, but
they're kind of right on that. It's a strange
time. It is indeed. Well, you mentioned HIV and
AIDS. I had a woman on the show who got HIV through
a blood transfusion during pregnancy. She, I
think this was in the 90s if I got that right
in my mind, I think it was. And she was talking
about how in the States specifically, camps that
were set up for children with HIV, I think have
been closed down now because they're not seeing
it anymore because the efficacy of these drugs
these days has really, you know, curbed the HIV
crisis in America, supposedly. That being said,
obviously, there's a lot of affluence here. What
are you seeing as far as HIV and AIDS in South
Africa, Mozambique and some of the other areas,
Durban, for example? Yeah, that's interesting.
I have a theory and I'm not a scientist or a
doctor. So this is just anecdotal. One thing
I have known throughout the last sort of 25,
30 years working with homeless kids in South
Africa in... the Durban region and the Eastern
Cape, areas massively affected by HIV AIDS, is
that whatever HIV is now, it's not the same as
what it was 20, 25 years ago. So what that would
tell me, and I've been rebuked when suggesting
this to scientists, is that viruses tend to weaken.
That would be my, if I was to look at this without...
listening to anyone else, I would say, but hang
on a second, like when we were working with kids
with HIV, you know, in the 90s, they were dying.
But when kids have HIV now, even if they're not
on their ARVs, sometimes, they're absolutely
fine. And a lot of the adults I know with HIV
don't take ARVs, and they're living their full
lives. Now, I'm not suggesting for a second,
don't take ARVs. That's not what I'm saying at
all. What I am saying is that, again, Anecdotally,
in other words, from what I can see, and that
doesn't hold much weight, but just from what
I can see, it has to be, my own sort of analysis
of it, it has to be weaker. It can't be the same
as it was in the 90s. Why isn't everyone dying?
Because they were in the 90s and kids on the
streets were dying. We're not getting, and even
if it wasn't specifically, because obviously
with HIV, it's not. a specific thing that kills
someone. It would be another disease like TB
or something that would, you know, it weakens
their immune system and then they're susceptible
to something else and that would be what kills
them. But even that's, you know, not happening
as much now. Now, there could be a number of
arguments to say, well, maybe there's better
treatment on all of these things. You know, maybe
people who get TB are treated more effectively
now. I don't know. All I can say is from what
I see, there isn't the, like adults that I know
who have had HIV for 20, 25 years are living
their full lives. Some using ARVs, some not using
ARVs. It's just an observation. Yeah, I mean,
if you look at go back to COVID, I mean, that
got weaker and weaker with each variant. So I
mean, that's if both of those things are true,
then that's incredible news. Because I remember,
you know, I've been terrified in the 80s when
it first blew up in England. And I was a junior
school boy then thinking I was going to die of
AIDS, not understanding what it was and how you
got it. Because I wasn't going to have sex for
a long time after that. But, you know, then I
remember on my EMT clinicals. AIDS patients in
Orlando Regional in the hospital there. And that
was about one of the last times I had patients,
you know, as I was a firefighter and a paramedic
there on forward that would tell me they were
HIV positive, but not those, you know, poor just
skeletons covered in the, you know, the scabs
that we saw. Back then. So it's interesting,
even in my entire 14 year career, I never saw
end stage AIDS patients. But, you know, I kind
of caught the tail end when I was just entering
that profession. So even, you know, I'm sure
it's more prevalent in some areas. But when I
reflect back on my career in the US specifically,
which is West Coast and East Coast, I don't really
remember full blown AIDS patients, which you'd
think, you know, we would be running on if, you
know, we're in the emergency medicine setting.
Well, I certainly remember it in South Africa
because it was very vivid on the streets and
some of them were children and it was a harrowing
time, actually. And, you know, sometimes I think
you kind of, you move away from an era so quickly,
sometimes you don't go back and reflect on it.
And when I do reflect on it, sometimes I think,
wow, that was an intense period, but it did change.
And, you know, I don't know why, but it did change.
And when AIDS or HIV is definitely not a death
sentence anymore, but it used to be, obviously.
But I think now, certainly in South Africa, if
you're diagnosed with HIV, they'll just tell
you the course of action with which to live your
life, which is pretty exciting. I mean, that's
incredible. And like I said, I know people who,
you know, were HIV positive right in the... the
sort of like 90s in the middle of it and and
they're actually still alive you know um and
that's that's incredible as well because we assumed
at the time i mean i think most of them when
when they first were diagnosed they thought that
life would be short but they're living fairly
long and full lives which is which is really
exciting and again just i don't have the scientific
knowledge on it you know i'm not a scientist
or a doctor but i just see Sometimes when you
see things, you know, these people who are struggling
with these things every day, you know, for years
and years and years, you just think to yourself,
well, maybe, you know, maybe it is weakening.
You have these sort of, you know, you come to
these conclusions. They might be wrong. Yeah.
No, it's still optimistic, though, regardless.
Just I want to kind of go down, you know, towards
the nonprofit and what the kids are doing now.
But just before we do, you mentioned Ebola. This
is interesting because when I was in, I think
it was Orange County. So this would have been
about. 10 15 years ago now there was a pseudo
outbreak in america and all of a sudden we had
these you know like class whatever it was has
match suits you know the bio has suits and you
know if there was any kind of inkling of any
sort of uh you know um sequence of symptoms and
we had to suit up completely never broke it out
the bag so that was obviously a good thing but
talk to me about what you witnessed as far as
the impact of ebola there because From what I
understand, that was a very opportunistic disease
as well. And if you have impoverished people,
for example, that's where it was really taking
hold. Yeah, I was in Sierra Leone. I forget the
year. It must have been around 20... perhaps,
2012 or 2014, somewhere in that region. And I
was actually looking at potentially setting up
Surfers Not Street Children in Sierra Leone as
well. And I'd met a group of kids who surfed
in a place called Bure down the coast. And I'd
done a bit of work in the capital looking at
programs there. And when I was there, it broke
out in Freetown, the capital. And it was extraordinary,
actually, because suddenly people weren't shaking
hands. And it was quite a, there was a panic.
And I was actually attending some events with
the high commissioner. No, he was a former South
African, a British high commissioner to South
Africa. He was doing some work in Sierra Leone
at the time. And I was actually traveling with
him. And people were panicking. And everybody
started trying to get out of Sierra Leone and
the borders were going to close. And I managed
to have a partnership with British Airways and
they got me on the last BA flight out of Sierra
Leone, left all my surfboards there, which was
cool for the locals. But it was, yeah, that one
was scary because, you know, if you get Ebola,
your chances of survival are much less than other
diseases. I mean, that is a really serious. disease
unless saying that others aren't serious but
this one is you know it's a terrifying um disease
so i i got used to that idea of um you know not
not shaking hands and people were starting to
wear masks there um not massively because they
hadn't been sort of mass produced um but uh that's
why when when covid started i was kind of like
The statistics don't seem that crazy on this
one. It was really because I've been there at
the beginning of the Ebola crisis in Sierra Leone.
And that was actually closed down after I left.
It was closed down for over a year, I believe,
Sierra Leone. I had a guy on the show a long
time ago now, amazing conversation, Ishmael Bay.
And he was a child soldier who was caught up
in the Sierra Leone conflict and his parents
were murdered and forced to fight. And then he
was rescued actually by an American Red Cross
woman in the end. And now he's a UN ambassador
trying to help other children of the force into
war. When I reflect on a lot of places in Africa,
sadly, we only... hear them mention when there
is some horrendous, you know, intertribal violence
or, you know, whatever the thing is, what are
some of the success stories of some of these
African nations that maybe in the past had this
very, you know, horrendous history? Yeah, there's
so many. I mean, obviously, and you know this
as well, but it's such a large continent and
there's so many, it's such a wealth of culture.
and diversity, and there's been just incredible
minds across the continent, philosophically,
academically. There's so many good things that
have happened. I think we often, I think our
media, certainly our Western media, is pretty
slanted, and Africa comes up if there's a disaster.
And that's pretty bad, really, because, you know,
incredible things happen on a daily and Africa
leads the way in certain in many things. And
the philosophies that are prevalent across the
continent have so much that we can learn from
in Western society. There's also, I think, just
a communal and I can't speak for the whole continent.
Obviously, it's a massive continent. But in the
African. communities that I've been exposed to,
the idea of community living can be really beautiful.
And there are areas where it isn't because things
have gone wrong. The socioeconomic scenarios
have impacted to a degree where those things
are destroyed. But in many areas, there's still
just beautiful things happening within a communal
context, which sees much more of a bond than
just the nuclear family. And I mean, just take,
for example, the South African philosophy of
Ubuntu, which Desmond Tutu was such a champion
for, but really is across the entire, all of
the tribes of South Africa. And that's the idea
that a person is a person through their relationship
to other people. So it's not, I think, therefore
I am. It's I am because I believe, I participate,
I share. And I'm actually sort of quoting there
from one of Desmond Tutu's books. But that's
a very good sort of, he had a very good understanding
of what Ubuntu is. And I think those types of
things are really useful philosophies and do
get practiced. And also there's all sorts of
inventions and ideas that come out of Africa.
And actually, if Africa's given the chance, Africa
can usually come up with solutions for African
problems as well. Often the solutions that come
externally aren't necessarily there to really
benefit Africa. External interests will be pandered
to. I think you could certainly have a wealth
of positive news coming out of Africa if the
media was interested in that. There's a Desmond
Tutu quote I use all the time. initially to underline
what's going on in the first responder professions
here. But again, we're talking about first world
problems still, but it says, he says, we spend
so much time pulling people out of the river.
We forget to go upstream to find out why they're
falling in, in the first place. And I love that.
And what that makes me think of, if we're talking
about exactly, you know, what you're underlining
at the moment, when I heard the backstory of
Somalia and the kind of birth of the piracy.
it came from overfishing from other nations on
their on their water supposedly so now you have
these fishermen that were feeding their families
that were making money now aren't and you know
i think none of us would be immune from you know
stealing and maybe even you know mugging if it
meant keeping our family alive so you know knowing
the colonization of you know the background of
a lot of these african nations this violence
this this um The negative press that we see,
how much of that is actually really the root
cause because of nations from other countries
and their impact on that country? Well, dare
I say it, that is exactly the same with the sentiment
around migrants. I mean, whether it's the UK,
the US, many countries where there's a massive...
I mean, in the UK, it's just this crazy, whipped
up frenzy about migrants. I mean, basically,
it's really politicians that are doing this to
have a rally cry. But, you know, and a lot of
people already know this, but if our countries
treated their countries better, it wouldn't be
such a flow of migrants. You know, they really
wouldn't. And this is the crazy thing. We can
say nothing about the relationship that our countries
have with these countries, but God forbid that
life becomes terrible or even just unpleasant
there enough to want to go somewhere else. And
then suddenly they're in our country. Hang on
a second. No, we don't want them. It's changing
our, you know. So, yeah, I think it's got to
be some self introspection. Is that the word?
Yeah. Some reflection. I've made that comment
many times because it's just so. so apparent
when you're talking about drug prohibition. That
was started in America, Harry Anslinger in the
1930s, the whole reefer madness thing. And then
obviously it's now an 80 -plus year longitudinal
study of how not to treat addiction, basically.
But when you put addicts into the hands of the
underworld, you create gangs. You created the
Crips and the Bloods to the level that they became.
You created the Mexican cartels, the Colombians,
all these different things that then destroyed
their own countries. And then people are all
up in arms in America about the Mexicans coming
over the border. Well, it was our policies that
created a lot of the issues that they have in
their country in the first place. So where is
the conversation of, you know, if you really
love where you live, you're not going to feel
the need to flee. You might want to integrate
and cross borders and share, you know, occupations
and skills and knowledge. And, you know, because,
again, borders are made up by man as well. But
the ownership of what we have done to create
these migrants, I think Haiti is another good
example. It's on my doorstep here in Florida.
And we're sending all these weapons to Israel
at the moment to kill children in Gaza. But then
we're turning a blind eye to helping an island
that's literally at our doorstep here in Florida
that is tearing itself apart. It makes no sense
to me. Dominican Republic is the other side,
living just beautifully and is a huge tourist
destination. The other side of that tiny island,
you're telling me that the U .S. couldn't have
stabilized that? decades ago and if they were
happy and employed how many people would be going
on flotillas trying to get to the florida coast
probably not very many yeah it's so true i mean
we we create these problems and and then we really
loathe the people who run from the problems but
i also think that um that politicians are are
really awful in how they use these they don't
really have any rally cry because some politicians
they just They don't do anything. So they just
want to be in power. And so the cheapest rally
cry is to tell them that all your problems are
not because of sort of the top end taking stuff.
That's not your problem. The problem is because
these migrants are coming in and taking your
jobs. The migrants are the problem. It's such
an easy rally cry. And they use it unashamedly.
They use this rally cry of how they're going
to get rid of the migrants. Everyone say, yeah,
get rid of the migrants. It's taking our jobs.
They're not taking your jobs. You don't even
want to do those jobs. I can certainly speak
for the UK. The jobs that migrants have been
doing in the past are jobs that the British people
didn't really want to do. I mean, I'm not an
expert on this, but generally the migrants weren't
taking their jobs. And if you go around England
today, if you were to read social media, you
would think that it looked like somewhere else
in the world. It really doesn't. That's just
not true. And so this idea, this migrant thing
is just like this hot potato that gets people
riled up and then people have political success
with it. It's terrible, really. Yeah, it's the
cup game. You're too busy looking for the ball
under the cup to realize that the person moving
the cups has taken your money. Yeah, exactly.
All right. Well, just seeing as I can open that
door just briefly, and then we'll go to the nonprofit.
I was so proud, and that sounds patronizing because
who the hell am I, but to see the courage of
the South African people talking about the atrocities
in Gaza early on, the same with the Irish people,
two nations that understand oppression, as do
many. I mean, I've always pointed this out. The
British people were at some of their highest
levels of poverty during slavery, for example.
So the average Brit did not benefit from all
these atrocities around the world either. So
they are arguably not complicit to most of these.
But what I was so disappointed about my people,
the British, because when we were young, and
I talk about this all the time, we had Blue Peter
and Comic Relief and Live Aid, and we were a
courageous, altruistic nation. And what was going
on there was just wrong. And my grandparents
fought in World War II against the same kind
of atrocities. And I think they'd be nauseated
to see the... the cowardice and the lack of backbone
to stand up regardless of you know the the religion
or the flag or whatever when something is wrong
something is wrong so what were you seeing as
far as your nation standing up against that early
because it was it was beautiful to see you know
it in in a sea of of such denial and and uh apathy
from the rest of the world yeah so you know i
I've been in South Africa most of my life. I'm
British originally, but South Africa is home
and South Africa is in my blood. My wife is South
African. My kids are dual nationality. And look,
one thing I can tell you about South Africans
is they recognize apartheid. They lived through
it. They saw it. They know it. They know the
implications. And when they see it elsewhere,
they recognize it. And that is why. South Africa
has been so vocal. How could you not speak out
as a nation when you see apartheid elsewhere
if you had apartheid, if you knew apartheid?
So on one level, I think it's absolutely fantastic
that they spoke out. On the other level, I'm
actually not surprised because it's inbuilt in
there in South Africa's DNA to know the pain.
of apartheid and also the struggles. I mean,
South Africa struggles with things today. I mean,
anyone in South Africa would admit that straight
up, that there's many, many problems that South
Africa grapples with. But they know their history
and they know how insidious apartheid was and
how wrong and how destructive. of a path it is.
And so speaking up on behalf of the Palestinians
would be the natural thing to do for a South
African. Where I struggle is I just don't understand
where that loss is of right and wrong. And there's
a lot of people that claim to be from a certain
religious doctrine. And I really haven't come
across any that preach hate. And, you know, murder
and enslavement, all these pretty sure that Christianity,
Buddhism, you know, et cetera, et cetera. The
reason why they've lasted all this time is because
they talk about community and love and compassion
and all these other areas. And, you know, a good
example is when I was young, this is kind of
funny. I went to the cinema in one of the towns
where I grew up and there were two screens back
then. That was it in England. And I went to see
Robocop. And when I was young, I looked even
younger and I think I was about 12. And so, you
know, I went with an adult and they were like,
yeah, no, that kid's not going to watch your
Robocop. And the other screen was Cry Freedom,
Steve Biko's story. So I ended up going to watch
that. And, you know, does that story say that
all white people in South Africa are evil and
all black people are angels? No. But of that
particular story and, you know, all the deaths
in the prisons back then and, you know, the.
the you know invading all the the shanty towns
all those things i mean you just saw what was
wrong you know and the british have a huge part
in in that you know nightmare the dutch have
a huge part in that nightmare but you can still
stay at that moment this is wrong you know was
there this back and forth between the palestinians
and israelis for the longest time yes does that
make it right no you can you know you're not
saying that one group is an entire group of angels
and one is is the devil But in this instant,
this is wrong. The innocents killed on October
7th, that was wrong. As a human being, you have
to separate yourself from religion, from nationality,
and just take off the glasses and go, that is
wrong. And that's the voice that was so absent
in a supposed faith -based nation that you didn't
even have the courage to do exactly what Jesus
or Buddha or some of these other people that
you believe in would be flipping tables about.
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think
this is so... What's shocking about Gaza is how
obvious it is. I mean, it doesn't matter how
many times you hear a refute. The images you
see, they're not lying. I mean, we all know.
We all know what's happening. We all know the
numbers. We all know that the numbers are not
made up. I think that even someone who's... maybe
philosophically on the other side and is saying
you know it is a lie they may maybe they convince
themselves but deep down they have to know and
so that's what i find astounding is how how in
plain sight it is and also is there any other
human beings on earth that this could happen
to and so little would be done about it i mean
palestinians i mean to be born a palestinian
in Palestine in this era, wow, that's really
something because you're not really afforded
a place at the table of humanity. And that's
what I find shocking. And, you know, the money
that goes into campaigns to tear down any natural
response, empathy towards the suffering of Palestinians.
is utterly incredible. I think, you know, when
I look at this part of my lifetime, we can only
speak for how we view things ourselves individually.
I see through the lens of my own eyes. What I
see, having lived through this COVID period and
this war on Gaza, the genocide, is too extraordinary.
moments in history for very different reasons
but just absolutely extraordinary that as I will
hopefully be sitting in my 80s or 90s reflecting
on these and other periods of my life I will
look back on it probably shaking my head how
on earth did those things happen and obviously
the the the Gaza stuff is just you know when
How did it even continue for a week or two afterwards,
after October the 7th? How did it, you know,
to still be going now and for the goalposts to
be changing the whole time? You know, it's actually
unbelievable. And for people to come on and for
government ministers and others to be sort of
defending it, that's just extraordinary. It's
just, it's hard to really fathom. Well, we're
arming them. Yeah. My nation, America, is literally
paying for the weapons of mass destruction. The
same kind of thing that we were sending people
into Iraq to fight, we're sending to Israel for
this. And the example I've made, and again, this
will resonate to when we were young, the troubles
in Northern Ireland. They were bombing the mainland.
Was there a backstory to that? Absolutely. Again,
were the British doing some horrific things prior
to that to the Irish? Absolutely. Again, were
all Irish angels and all British evil? Also,
no. But imagine if they bombed one of the high
streets that they used to when we were young,
and our response, the British response, was to
go in and level the entire city of Belfast, men,
women, children, doctors, nurses, paramedics,
firefighters, the lot. and then bulldoze the
entire city and then starve whoever's left to
death. Would the world turn their head to the
Irish? I highly doubt it. They're no different
than the Palestinians. Yeah. Yeah. It's just
an extraordinary moment. And I think I've always,
almost every day that goes on, you can't imagine
it could get any worse. And the most disappointing
is just how much worse it does get. You know,
that's just. You know, I go back, I think back
to sort of in the early weeks of what was happening
in Gaza. You're like, you know, you think to
yourself, well, man, this response is so extreme.
You know, I think they've even overdone it for
their own, you know, it's going to expose what
they're doing. And yet we sit here a couple of
years later and it didn't at all. It just got
worse and worse and worse. And I think that's
the scariest thing. Absolutely. Well, shifting
then to... what we can do, like people listening
now, obviously what you're doing with your own
hands, you know, in South Africa and in Mozambique,
you come out of, you know, the pandemic, talk
to me about that upswing. And then let's start
kind of diving into some of the incredible kids
that you've got on the competition circuit now.
Yeah. So we've got, so Surfers Not Street Children
is an organization that empowers kids that are
either living on the streets or living in the
downtown area, an area we call the point in Durban.
um and this area is one where street life is
ever present so you know you can be on the streets
or you can be living in homeless shelters or
even living in an apartment usually an overcrowded
apartment and the minute you walk out your door
it's street life and so if you don't have some
sort of mentorship through that the the streets
will likely get hold of you in one way or another
whether it's drugs whether it's prostitution
whether it's gangs most likely gangs and whatever
that is it's really really difficult for kids
to grow up without being affected by street life
so what we run is a program based around surfing
that fuses surfing with mentorship and care and
basically provides everything from a diversion
from street life to a rescue so some kids who
are completely caught up in street life whether
they're street children or in gangs or prostitution
or whatever it is where it's a rescue program
for those kids but at the same time kids who
aren't involved at all that could potentially
be involved it's a diversion program and actually
as we reduce the number of kids who need to be
rescued the most important thing becomes ensuring
that every one of the children has access to
diversion so they don't have to become a casualty
who needs rescue so that's really where we're
at at the moment so we run programs from two
bases in Durban one right the beach and one a
few blocks back the beach place we call our surf
club and that's where the surfing happens every
day down at the new pier durban's premier surfing
wave and it's a great great place to to be a
surfer really it's a fantastic wave it's a good
community of surfers we're right there at the
new pier and then four blocks back we have what
we call the surf house which is our hq where
most of our programs happen. We've got a high
-speed sort of computer lab where kids can do
their homework and get assistance with their
school studies and play games and have downtime
and hang out together and just have a home from
home. And really, this is a way of them spending
less time in the streets and more time around
a positive team of people. who inspire them.
So it's exciting. We have about 130 kids in the
program at any given time. And, you know, 130
core kids in the program. And we're open seven
days a week. We run a nutrition program, health
programs, back to school program to ensure that
every child is back in school. And we really
try and fill the kids' day with school activities,
with school, with surfing, with mentorship. um
so that by the time they do go home to their
areas they're so exhausted they get a bit of
time with their parents they can catch up and
then they sleep and then hit repeat the next
day so it's been really successful over the years
we don't have a 100 success rate of course we're
dealing with trauma and addiction and yes it's
not easy but we've had kids come through the
program and go on to be all sorts of things from
lifeguards to working in surf shops working in
restaurants um uh you know coffee baristas um
and uh yeah a number of of different professions
which is exciting to see um over the years and
some have come back and are assisting and our
team of uh fully qualified lifeguards our water
safety team are all kids who've come through
the program uh which is really lovely to see
and yeah it's it's a it's it's exciting uh part
of durban and and funny enough something that
i think most of Durban is really proud of. I've
had a few people on the show who have used diving,
excuse me, diving, used surfing for kind of mental
health therapy when it comes to military first
responders. So one more wave in America and then
Surfwell, which is a bunch of police officers
in the UK. And I want to circle around. So I
know we talked about this last time, but I think
it's so important. Talk to me about the impact
of a surf session with the community out in you
know the salt water and sunlight and then how
that is is enabling you to then get the kids
to open up as they sit on the beach afterwards
yeah look i think surfing in and of itself is
therapeutic it has its own therapeutic value
and i think that that's not just because you're
out in nature you're in the ocean it's beautiful
it's serene all sorts of things i think that
is real But as I try and analyze it, I think
that there's something to be said for the moment
of riding a wave. The moment of riding a wave,
you're absolutely forced to live in the moment.
You can't ride a wave and be thinking about other
stuff. You just can't. It forces you. The flow
of being at one with the wave forces you to live
in the moment. And that's the addictive part
because sometimes people will say, well, just
being out there. That's what it's all about,
just being out in nature. And I actually kind
of disagree with that because for me, I find
the ride itself just so addictive. So when I
kick out of a ride off the top, I paddle like
crazy because I want to get back out because
that's what I want that feeling again. So although
I love being out in nature and that is therapeutic,
there's something about that that's slightly
addictive. um feeling of being in the moment
there's something really special and therapeutic
about that moment that you just want to do again
and again and again and again so with that sort
of value that it has sort of intrinsically i
think it's a really good fit for social programs
especially if you're fusing it with mentorship
and and care or psychosocial care so i always
say that in and of itself surfing probably isn't
enough to change the kids' scenarios on its own.
Like we've had kids that, you know, get into
surfing and don't get into the program and they
carry on in street life and it doesn't last very
long. So even though it can bring them some joy
and some stoke and, you know, it's good for them
in a sense. I think it's the fusion. It just
works really well as part of a model. So our
model is fusing surfing. with mentorship and
care and i think that in in those types of you
mentioned the other organizations i'm sure they're
finding similar things that surfing isn't the
model but it fits the model really well and sure
i reckon you could recreate this with high intensity
sports where you live in the moment i'm sure
i'm sure you could do i mean skateboarding there
are i know of programs that use skateboarding
i'm sure you could do things like high adventure
like white water rafting or whatever it is you
know i'm sure you can for some reason surfing
fits it really well and maybe that is because
of the added sort of side benefits as well like
being in nature and the colors you know the blue
of the ocean the greens of the palm trees you
know there are um added sort of elements that
make it even more uh therapeutic so that package
in a sense that it creates has meant that we
found it to be an incredible tool within our
programs. And might I add that we didn't start
the organization when I started it in 1998, actually.
When I started it, I didn't think of surfing
at first. I had an array of different programs
and surfing wasn't one of them. And the idea,
and it wasn't called Surfers Not Street Children
then, it was called Durban Street Team. One day,
and I may have told this in the last time we
spoke, but I was surfing at one of the piers
in Durban, the new pier actually. And one of
the kids wanted to surf. with me and he was on
the pier and you can uh you can talk to people
they're quite low pier so you can actually have
a conversation while you're sitting out back
and he said oh let me surf and the waves were
tiny so i let him i said jump off i knew he could
swim and i pushed him into waves and he was hooting
all the way to the the beach i'm sure i told
this last time but the fact remains that he enjoyed
it so much i could just hear him and he wanted
to go again and again it was like this light
bulb that went off and i was like yeah I hadn't
really wanted to put surfing into the program
because I thought, yeah, that's kind of my thing.
And I wonder if, I don't really want to impose
myself. Maybe they want to do other stuff that
the kids there already like. I don't want to
think that I'm pushing what I like on the kids.
And they got so into it. All they wanted to do
is surf. And it became our, so we started a program
within what we had. And we were doing football,
drama, art, all sorts of things. And we still
do those things. But surfing just took off as
the one that the kids, it just captured them
and their imagination. And they were this first
group of black surfers in the region. They were
like gladiators walking down the pier. It was
amazing. You'd find the kids walking down and
surfing hadn't been accessible to the black communities.
And so as these black kids would walk down the
beach with their boards along the pier. it was
obvious they were going to jump off and suddenly
a crowd i'm talking in the 90s here which is
only a few years after you know the first free
and fair elections yeah crowds of um of Holiday
makers, because Durban's a big holiday maker
spot, particularly for the black community coming
from the rural areas. And they hadn't seen this.
And so they would gather and the kids would be
jumping off the pier. They spent like 20 minutes
of basking in the glory, like these gladiators
about to go out and do battle. And then they'd
somersault off the pier and go surfing. And they
were like these heroes. And it was an extraordinary
moment to watch because they were the first black
surfers. after apartheid at least the first black
crew of surfers there was one or two before them
um at that beach but not many and so it was a
it was a new thing for the community and and
the kids just fell in love with surfing and i'd
say south africa is certainly one of the countries
that leads the way on uh on the transform transformation
of surfing in our region particularly the the
quasi natal and durban area has been has really
led the way on transformation within surfing.
And there's a lot of really, really good black
surfers within South Africa, and not just surfers
who've come through our programs, but up and
down the coast. Mikey Febrey is one of the best
surfers in the world, and Jose Faulkner, and
then Tandem, CB. And we've had... Kids from our
program who've represented South Africa at the
ISA World Junior Surfing Championships, which
is incredible to think kids who've sort of been
born into pretty much abject poverty have come
through the program, been able to earn their
green blazers and represent their country. So
it's exciting. And actually, funnily enough,
this year, the World Junior Surfing Championships
is happening, we think, in Peru in December.
And we've got one of the kids from our program
who's qualified. So he's in the South African
national team, a boy called Melo. And actually
the team manager is a guy called Sisonke, who's
one of our staff. And he's now getting his green
blazer as the team manager of the national junior
surfing team. And on a personal note, I'm also
stoked because my son made the team as well.
Oh, brilliant. Is that the same son that's doing
the modeling? Yeah, that's my eldest. Sabelo
does the modeling. Okay. And Sienna's the professional
surfer. Yeah, but it's incredible that the kids
from the program and the girl we're going to
talk about in a moment called Indy, she's also
been selected twice to represent South Africa
at the World Surfing Championships, Junior Championships
as well. So, yeah, it's exciting to have seen
and sort of been part of this great shift in
South Africa within surfing. And also to have
surfing as a sport impact the country and impact
sports within the country. It's been exciting
to see. It's amazing how powerful sports can
be. I think, you know, the South African rugby
team, you know, did some powerful things when
it came to that integration and telling the world,
you know, what South Africa should look like
versus the kind of, you know, the white version
prior to that. But the program really reminds
me of, I think, something that we need. more
now than ever in the US and the UK and other
areas, I hear over and over again, well, the
problem is it's these broken homes. And my whole
thing is that, yeah, but you can't unbreak a
home. Like if a home is broken, and there's so
many people in my profession, I'm on my second
marriage, my son grew up in a home of divorce.
And we're lucky, both partners were still involved.
The mother and the father was still healthy and
present, but... As a paramedic, as a firefighter,
I've seen those homes. Dad's in prison, mom's
an addict, and grandparents are raising them,
whatever it is. And so, you know, to me, it's
like, okay, well, these exist, full stop. So
what are we going to do about it? Well, what
you do is firstly, you take care of your own
home, and then you step outside your front door
and you go, how can I be a mentor in my community?
And I think this is exactly what we need, not
this divisive nastiness that we're hearing in
so many of, you know, these air quotes developed
nations at the moment. But, you know, it takes
a village. And if a child has been born into
an environment that is not setting them up for
success and they're in an area that maybe they
might get pulled into gangs or prostitution or
some of these negative areas, then it's up to
the rest of us to, you know. encircle them and
and then steer them in the right direction this
is what you've illustrated so beautifully a lot
of these kids that you talked about that are
in this world surf league now could also ended
up you know overdosing on the streets or you
know dying in a gang related you know shooting
or whatever it was and the only difference was
those kids were met with a positive role model
positive group of mentors that took them in a
different direction and understanding that all
of us were giggling little toddlers once and
it's the environment that dictates if you end
up you know as a crip or a blood or you know
the the world surfing champion whatever it is
is simply the other people around you and i love
you know what you're doing and so many other
people that have come on the show is be part
of the solution it's that simple yeah i agree
absolutely and i also think that probably you
know There's many heartwarming moments when you're
doing this job. There's also harrowing moments
because some kids don't make it, of course. But
probably the most heartwarming moments for me
is when you see the joy on the face of the parents
when they see their child succeeding. Because
obviously our goal is not to take over the responsibility
of parents. Our goal is to empower the parents
to add value to what they're already doing because
most of them love their kids. um most of them
live in very very complicated social scenarios
things have gone wrong often and uh but deep
down they love their kids and they might be struggling
to do parenting but if you can assist them in
ways that relieve some of the pressure but also
don't take away their agency and and their ability
to to be there for their own children and be
connected and be loved by their children then
actually that's that's exactly it transforms
the kids and that's what they need. And so we've
had kids that are successful in things that you
wouldn't even necessarily think are massively
successful, but given the context of which they're
coming from, are just huge. And the joy and the
dignity on the faces of the parents when they
see that their kid didn't go into the gangs and
went on to work somewhere or didn't hang out
on the streets or in the... the games rooms where
the gangs are, they come to the club and they
got a fifth in the surf contest. You know, it's
just so beautiful to see because one thing I've
realized is that people get caught up in the
day -to -day of living and sometimes this can
bring out the worst in them. But if you enable
them to just have a bit of breathing space, I'm
talking about the parents here, they... mostly
all love their kids. It's very rare that someone
really doesn't. And it does happen. We know the
horror stories. But generally, parents love their
kids. And if you can give them that space to
just scrape away some of the stuff that's clouding
everything and to let their kids, empower their
kids to develop, the joy that it brings to that
family and the glue that it brings that connects
them all. is pretty amazing to see. Well, what
you just alluded to a moment ago, that we can't
save all of them. I mean, we try to save all
of them, but obviously there's always going to
be those anomalies that fall through the cracks.
This is what I see used to discourage. Oh, well,
you know, that one person, you know, that one
child didn't make it. It went back to the gang.
So therefore, obviously, the nonprofit doesn't
work or food stamps. Well, this is one, you know,
we found this immigrant family and they've been
using food stamps and then selling the food.
So therefore, social programs don't work. And
that's bullshit. Like most of them do. Most of
like you said, if you give people the ability
to just stand on their own two feet again and
just take some of the load off their back, a
lot of people will be able to stand on their
own again. refine their autonomy. And then, you
know, that's going to help forge an even better
relationship with their children. And now, you
know, you're changing the world because, you
know, I've said this so many times, you truly
want to change the world, raise a kind, compassionate,
strong child. That's it. That's the next generation.
So a lot of these programs, all of these nonprofits
are doing exactly that. But I see. the, you know,
when it's coming from a predatory background,
usually corporate or political or whatever it
is, they'll use those failures to say, see, it
doesn't work and ignore the other 95, 90 % that
did work and talking about that. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. I think that, you know, we know the
worst of it. So in other words, you know, that
without any guidance the worst scenarios that
the kids can face we all know those we can imagine
those they're they're horrific and yes you can't
stop every child um from falling into those to
those types of pits but i would say to to the
team my colleagues i say we need to operate almost
with the mentality that if if we can just save
one child's life and by save i mean give them
the power to turn their lives around you know
give them the agency to do that um then it's
worth it so because you could you could definitely
focus on the multitude over the years that don't
make it and that could be depressing sure but
actually it's not just one child there are many
many many kids that have come through the program
when you start looking at that you think wow
you know it's it's hard because you can get despondent
quite easily but if you step back and you say
okay but it Any one child or any child that is
able to transform their lives makes this whole
thing worth it. If that's our starting point,
it's much easier to not get burnt out or to feel
despondent about it. And my staff, I mean, the
team that I work alongside, they're awesome people.
And, you know, we have a, I basically oversee
both countries, but we have local directors who
run the show. Sandile in South Africa, in Mozambique.
They're really deciding what happens. They're
best placed to work with the kids that are coming
into the program and to decide how it's done.
And it can be hard because when you're immersed
in that world, I mean, the world, the street
life world is really tricky. And it's... There
are so many things that are complicated and fuzzy,
especially when you're dealing with addiction
and trauma. Addiction and trauma, they're not
logical in a sense. So you could say to a child,
hey, life's not going right for you. We can see
that. Here's a better alternative. And they don't
take it. And the reason they don't take it is
because addiction and trauma mean that they're
not able to make the logical. Because if you
didn't have that, the logical decision, if you
trusted the person, the logical decision would
be embrace because it's a lot better than what
I've got. But when that judgment is clouded by
addiction and trauma, that makes life difficult.
So when talking with the team, I always say to
them, you know, we've got to remember that the
kids that are in the worst scenarios with trauma
particularly, but also addiction. are not able
at the beginning to make the logical decision.
So we have to journey with them. And that gap
of journeying with them until they're able to
make a logical decision is really hard because
you're trying to maybe convince them that there's
a better opportunity. They can't see it. And
it's because the judgment is clouded and it's
clouded with real things. Trauma is real. And
addiction is real. The pangs of these drugs that
they take that pull them back into the streets
and the confusion that trauma leaves imprinted
on their minds. And it can be really frustrating
for the staff. They're like, it's such an obvious,
here's their moment. They just have to seize.
That's it. There's the moment. And they can't
do it. And what we have to say is, well, sure.
OK, but let's keep going. We keep going and we
keep going. And hopefully we journey with them
long enough for them to be able to make that
change. And the other thing we recognize is that
our programs, the best scenario of our program
isn't the rescue. The rescue is a rescue. It's
emergency. It's when a kid has had the worst
happen to them and we're rescuing. And it's much
harder. The child who's been through that, their
adult life will be harder. The best scenario
for us is the ongoing diversion. So the kid that
does the best in our program is the kid that
comes in at five years old and stays till they're
18 plus. That's the dream scenario. So we mentor
them through the whole of their childhood. And
that's our goal. So our teams are out there identifying
who are the kids that will be tomorrow's gangster
or tomorrow's... you know, exploited child. These
are the kids we want in the program from the
get -go. Because if we can mentor them, you know,
and provide this added value to their family
scenario, we can stop them ever getting into
street life. And that's the goal that we're looking
for. And it doesn't mean we're less enthusiastic
about the rescue. Of course not. But it just
means we know that if you can save them the trauma
and the addiction, they're going to start making
the right decisions way earlier in their lives.
I mean, this really kind of goes back to what
we were talking about earlier with obesity, with,
you know, addiction and, you know, violence here
in the U .S. is they are products of the environment.
You know, you get these people that are so judgy.
Well, if they just, you know, got up at five
o 'clock and ran 10 miles and then ate a salad,
they could be like me. And I've always said that
I grew up on a farm in England. So, you know,
I had orchards and vegetables and, you know,
livestock and, you know, it was baling hay and
mucking out stables. So my whole baseline was
completely different than someone that grew up
in the middle of London. You know, that all they
had was, you know, the little flat and computer
games and maybe fish and chips. I mean, you know,
totally different environment completely. do
you want to forge you want to move the needle
on this like you said it's the proactive element
like how can you get to people at the beginning
which just goes back to my comment if you put
real food in schools get rid of all the shit
all the you know the soda machine you know vending
machines and you have them doing pe you know
not not electively you do pe like a class then
of course you're going to make a huge impact
on the physical health and the mental health
and bullying and grades and all these other areas.
But if you just leave it the same and then complain
about obesity and watch your healthcare system
crumble and then arrest all these people because
you haven't given them positive mentors. You
know, insanity is doing the same thing, expecting
different results. So, you know, only when you
create an environment that allows people to elevate
themselves that you're going to make change,
which goes back to your point. What I did for
a living was someone called 911 and we responded.
We were the rescuers. What I do now is what you're
talking about, is trying to get people, you know,
before they ever get to that point, before they
ever have that emergency. Yeah. That's really
interesting because I think that one of the areas
that we've really opened up to is this whole
sort of, I know it's a catch -all, but wellness.
Because one thing we've noticed is that the more
you look at the wellness of the child, because
we want these kids, as I said, to be in the program
their entirety of their childhood. So then it's
really, there's quite a bit of responsibility
on us. What do you expose them to? What is it
you want? And that's an amazing opportunity for
them and a responsibility for us because we know
from our own lives, and I think it's dawning
on a lot of people, that this whole world of
wellness can equip you. Not only can it give
you much more peace in your current moment of
life, but it can equip you for the future. So
if these kids, I mean, they have various different...
aspects of wellness, whether it be nutrition
program to ensure that they're not eating the
sort of sugary junk that's available if you have
no money, to our Saturday morning yoga class.
These are things that are part and parcel of
developing them. And don't forget that if that's
part of our program, that means that these kids
are doing this every day, nutrition, every week,
yoga. Almost every day surfing when the conditions
are right, which is a lot of the time in South
Africa. And so you start adding in all these
different aspects of wellness and of health and
of, you know, nurturing the kids. And these things,
I just believe that these things are so important
to ensuring that the kids have the best shot
at their adult lives, as well as having meaningful
fun and development during their childhood. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned earlier Indy, so let's talk
about her. Yeah, Indy's fantastic. She's so charismatic.
She's 18 now. She's come through the program
since she was about eight years old. We started
this program called Girls Surf 2, and we've always
worked with girls, but we wanted to do something
really targeted for the girls. It was very specific
to the needs of a girl child. We started this
about eight or nine years ago. And she was one
of the first girls to come into that program.
And she would have been about eight, nine at
the time. And she's she learned to surf in the
program. We made sure that she was in school
and, you know, went through her schooling childhood.
And she actually qualified twice for the South
African national team. She competed in El Salvador.
I think the other was Brazil, if I'm not mistaken.
She did two different. uh isa world championships
um so she earned her green blazer as a spring
box surfer but she was also excelling at school
so we were really encouraging her with that and
and her sisters in the program our younger sister
as well and her grades were magnificent and she
got accepted to study international law at swansea
university in the uk which is fantastic great
achievement you know but of course coming out
of the point area of Durban. And, you know, she
just had to step outside her, her front door
and the street life is there. It's amazing that
she survived that. That's just unbelievable,
but obviously didn't have any means to, to go
to university. So we thought about it and she's
so inspirational to the other kids. She's a real
leader. And I think she has like incredible leadership
potential for the future anyway, in whatever
field, but. She wants to use international law
as a way of giving back. And so we just said,
well, we sat down and thought, we've got to try
and make this happen. And, you know, English
university is expensive, but we decided we would
do a big fundraiser each year and raise the money
for her to have a scholarship to study. And we're
doing it year by year. And I think once she's...
in the uk she's so charismatic that we can do
a couple of events for for the oncoming years
so we just worried at the moment about year one
and uh we've got to raise about 27 000 pounds
which is a lot of money um and we've raised about
uh 16 now um and i think we're almost getting
to stage where we've got enough that we can start
the pro start her uh and then sort of They catch
up with the fundraising. So, yeah, it's really
exciting. And if anyone out there is interested
in being part of making Indy's dream a reality,
we'd really appreciate that. And not just for
Indy. I do think it's incredible for Indy, but
also for all the girls in the program that look
up to her. And it's not to say that, you know,
her studying in the UK means that every kid is
going to study overseas. But, you know, one child
to reach for the stars. says to the other children
that whatever the things are that they're moving
towards, things are possible. And so we really
want to make it a reality. She's an incredible,
charismatic, very, very funny, talkative. And
actually, there's a lovely video on our Instagram
page by a guy called Mikey Corker, a British
guy who's been in the UK. and he's been in South
Africa. Actually, he's a South African guy living
in the UK who's been back in South Africa shooting
an edit for us, and he's producing a short film
about Surfers Not Street Children, but he did
a one -minute piece about Indy, which is really
compelling as well. So have a look at that on
our Instagram, at Surfers Not Street Children.
Brilliant. Now, if people want to learn more
about you, want to donate to Indie, where are
the best places online to do that? Yeah, definitely
Instagram. I mean, our website's good, but Instagram
is probably the most up to date. We've got two
campaigns running at the moment. We've got Indie's
campaign and we've got this incredible... moment
for 15 of the children have qualified for the
provincial team to represent uh in the nationals
in south africa so we were talking earlier about
the the international worlds this is actually
for the nationals in jeffrey's bay a very famous
surfing place so 15 of the kids are going to
go down to jeffrey's bay and compete for the
region but unfortunately Parents pay, and obviously
these kids are not in the position to do so,
so we've got to find the money for 15 of them
to compete. So that's our other campaign at the
moment. So you'll see the two campaigns on the
Instagram. One is the one for the team, and then
the other one is for Indy's education. Yeah,
we'd value any support, any encouragement. We'd
be gladly received. Beautiful. Well, I've got
some closing questions to throw at you if you've
got time. Yeah, absolutely. All right. The first
one I love to ask, is there a book or other books
that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
One that I read over and over and over again,
it's a bit obscure, but it was called Pedagogy
of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire. And that was
really the blueprint. that I used for starting
the organization. And then I fused it with I
Write What I Like by Steve Biko. And I was very
fortunate to have been sort of taken under the
wing of Steve's wife, Nsiki Biko, when I was
in the Eastern Cape, and also his brother, Kaya.
Obviously, Steve had been murdered by the South
African state. the apartheid state and uh i got
quite a political education through chatting
with uh kaya bico and uh and steve's wife and
siki which was uh which is amazing so those two
books would be my yeah i mean there's others
but those two for sort of really foundational
stuff are pretty amazing beautiful well i mentioned
cry freedom obviously which tells steve's story
what about other films and documentaries that
you love Yeah, that's a very good question. Films,
funnily enough, Cry Freedom is one of my favourites.
I think the Serafina as well, which was a play
by Mbungeni Ngema, a South African playwright
who passed away recently. He was very famous
during the apartheid years. But they made a film
of it with a woman called Leleti Kumalo. And
actually Whoopi Goldberg was in it as well, which
sounds a little strange for a South African film,
but it was obviously to attract, she does well
in it actually, it was to attract an international
audience. And I find that one very moving. And
then as a surfer, I think, you know, I grew up
watching films by a filmmaker called Jack McCoy.
And he's just passed away as well. And he made
a couple of, well, many, many, many incredible
surf films. And if you want to get into some
sort of old school surf stuff, some sort of late
80s, 90s and 2000s, I would say look up anything
by Jack McCoy. Brilliant. Well, speaking of interesting
people, is there a person you'd recommend to
come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the
first responders, military and associated professions
of the world? Wow. I could certainly come up
with someone. If I can think of someone off the
top of my head right now, I'm not sure. But yes,
I'm sure I know many, many, many people I could
recommend and would be happy to do so. Brilliant.
All right. Well, the last question before we
make sure everyone knows, again, where to find
you. What do you do to decompress? Surf, which
is great until you're injured, which is what
I am at the moment. I had a little... had a little
injury to my lower back it's nothing that i won't
recover from but just takes a bit of time so
you normally i surf but right now i'm swimming
lengths and lengths and lengths just to decompress
and uh but but definitely surfing is is is that
for me and and also i've got three sons um and
i i just needed one of them to surf they all
do interesting stuff and i engage in whatever
they're doing but i've got one son that surfs
and that is pretty special when you can surf
with a with you know one of your kids that's
that's a pretty special experience as well have
you come across foundation training the back
health program do you know what that's you're
the second person who's mentioned that to me
this week and i'm about to watch something on
youtube about it someone said to me that's the
app that's you know changed their world in terms
of their bag Yeah, no, it saved my career. Literally,
I hurt my back as a firefighter. And ironically,
my chiropractor who I paid out of pocket to go
see because the options for my workman's comp
was surgery and pain pills. And he had this playing
in his office. And so I was like, well, what
is this? Oh, well, you know, there's a free thing
on YouTube. I want you to do this before you
come see me every time now. So I started doing
it and it works so well that I ended up going
and getting certified and teaching my entire
fire department. you know this this uh this training
technique so eric he's trained kelly slater and
a whole bunch of surfers yeah so uh yeah but
i mean it it is incredible and ideally for prevention
but if you are hurt it's a phenomenal backframe
program too so i highly recommend it i will be
doing it tonight that's great to hear all right
so you said the best place to find you know surfers
on street children is instagram any other places
for you specifically Yeah, I'm also on Instagram,
tomhewittmbe on Instagram. And yeah, have a look
at our website, which is surfnotstreets .org.
Beautiful. Well, Tom, I want to thank you so
much. I mean, firstly, the incredible things
that you and your team are doing. I think it's
a beautiful blueprint that you don't have to
be in, you know, South Africa. You could be in
Orlando or wherever on the planet. You know,
I think mentorship is absolutely what we need
at the moment. But I also want to thank you for
being so generous with your time and coming back
onto the Behind the Shield podcast today. Oh,
thanks so much, James. It's a real pleasure.
Great to be back.